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1. Calendar question -W2 175/2
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Thread 1

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 07:42 am    Post subject: Calendar question -W2 175/2
By Dhall

In W@ 174-176 it's the anniversary of Mariko's death. 

In W2 175/2, it is the same day, showing us TSURAYABA, MATSUO. 

As Logan promised, every year on the anniversary of Mariko's death (W2 57) he visits Matsuo, to take a bit of him in revenge. 

We are shown that this has happened four times, meaning four anniversaries (with this year being the fifth) 

Have five years passed since W2 57? And where would the likely points be, so that we can insert the flashbacks into Wolverine and Matsuo's listings? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 04:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Good question, Dave, and one that raises a calendar conundrum. 

First, I estimate that four years, not five, passed between Mariko's death in W2 57 and W2 175. If four discrete scenes are depicted, could the last one be to the current anniversary, just prior to the scene in which the flashbacks are alluded to? Can you give me page and panel citations for each of the four flashback scenes? 

Second, having W2 175 occur on April 11 is a problem. If it's truly the anniversary of Mariko's death, then W2 57 and W2 175 must occur on the same day of the year. However, according to the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #5, we have the following sequence of events: 
UX 286 
W2 51-63 
UX 287 
X 8 
So W2 57 occurs before X 8. X 8-9 occur on Mardi Gras. Mardi Gras always occurs before April 11. So W2 57 must occur before April 11 -- probably a month and a half before. 

So the question is...do I try to slide issues of W2 to a point earlier on the posted calendar to ensure that W2 175 occurs no later than late February? How much havoc would that wreak on chronological relationships with other titles? As I'm busily trying to catch up with other things, does someone want to give this a shot?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 05:33 pm    
By Dhall

Current time period: 
Page 1: 5 minutes to midnight, Matsuo writes out his will. 
Page 2: He accepts his fate, and has a brief flashback to explain Logans vow. (Logan holds Marikos body, nothing new) (note the last panel on each anniversary page, shows Matsuo in current time looking at the missing body part.) 

The Initial Year (so described in the book.) Page 3: 
Nearly midnight, in Matsuos office, with some of his men. Logan arrives through the skylight. While his men fire at Logan, Matsuo garbs a sword from the wall. Logan deals with the men, blocks Matsuos sword strike with his arm, then hacks off part of Matsuos left arm. (Logan has admantium in this page.) 

The Year Following (again so-described) Page 4: 
Matsuo is in his compound, surrounded by a large group of Hand assassins. Logan manages to kill them, and cut off Matsuos right ear. (The claws are probably admantium, its hard to tell.) 

That Year (the next anniversary) Page 5: 
Matsuo surrounds himself with guards, video monitors, everything. At midnight, Logans arm pops up from under Matsuos desk, cutting off his nose. 

Page 6: Matsuo trains long and hard, gets cybernetic parts, etc. 
Note that this page doesnt happen on an anniversary, (and we do not see Logans attack) BUT Matsuo says that All I succeeded in doing was making him mad. Last Year his viciousness knew no bounds and he took my gall bladder of all things. 

Page 7: Current time: Matsuo plans to ask Logan to let him take his own life. It is one minute to midnight. 

Page 8: Current time: One minute past midnight, Matsuo wonders what happened to Logan that made him break his vow. We see Logan being loaded into a bodybag (between W2 175 and W2 176) 

That makes 4 anniversaries (3 shown, one mentioned) and this current year, as the fifth anniversary of Marikos death. 


Dave H

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Posted: 10 Oct 2004 08:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Maybe the gall bladder was a bonus after Logan sliced off the nose? After all, his viciousness knew no bounds, so perhaps he claimed a second body part. 

1st anniversary -- left arm 
2nd anniversary -- right ear 
3rd anniversary -- nose and gall bladder 
4th anniversary -- no show 

We've had a fifth anniversary since W2 175/2. Makes you wonder if Logan resumed the tradition.


			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 09:49 pm    
By Dhall

Well it's possible from the dialogue (if we fudge it a little) to have the gall bladder thing as a vicious recation to Matsuo's training and enhancement program (between 3rd and 4th), and not necessarily on an anniversary. That's the route I would go for myself, if we have to fudge. 

Now where in chronology can these flashbacks be placed, and still maintin the anniversary? 

Dave H

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Posted: 11 Oct 2004 06:20 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Now where in chronology can these flashbacks be placed, and still maintin the anniversary?  
<<<

First thing's first. We still need to determine the true date of Mariko's death, and given my previous post, it may have to be late February instead of April 11 (as the calendar now has it). Can W2 175 and connected issues be slid back?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 11:47 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

In my initial X-map of this period, posted over two years ago, I had W2 #170-176 "slid back" from the general area of their publication order, for very different reasons -- Nightcrawler's odd comment in #173 that he was no longer a priest. 

Kurt's comment makes no sense in terms of any other plot we've ever seen -- so we either have to ignore it, or try to rationalize it. 

I tried to explain it by pushing these W2 issues back into the brief period where Kurt quits the X-Men after Colossus' death -- from XU #30 to UX #394 -- and claiming that Kurt's despair led him to temporarily leave both the X-Men AND the priesthood. 

So, there's some in-story justification for pushing the issues back. 

By the way, about the anniversaries ... I took the phrase "the initial year" to mean "the year Mariko died" -- not "the first anniversary". Interpreting things this way would allow only four years to pass... 

I don't remember many of the details from that period, but is it possible, in all of Matsu'o's appearances after W2 #57, that he has a prosthetic arm? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 06:53 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I tried to explain it by pushing these W2 issues back into the brief period where Kurt quits the X-Men after Colossus' death -- from XU #30 to UX #394 -- and claiming that Kurt's despair led him to temporarily leave both the X-Men AND the priesthood. 

So, there's some in-story justification for pushing the issues back. 
<<<


Well, Kurt had a minor crisis of faith after his encounter with the Church of Humanity in UX 400(?), so the comment would also fit in that time period, although either way is a kludge - the editors might have meant for Kurt to leave the priesthood when this issue was written, but since he didn't, this might just be a reference to an abortive Uncanny plotline. 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't remember many of the details from that period, but is it possible, in all of Matsu'o's appearances after W2 #57, that he has a prosthetic arm? 
<<<


Wasn't it only a hand that was initially cut off? 

-Sean

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 07:36 pm    
By Dhall

It looked like a hand, and part of an arm to me.

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 09:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
So the question is...do I try to slide issues of W2 to a point earlier on the posted calendar to ensure that W2 175 occurs no later than late February? How much havoc would that wreak on chronological relationships with other titles? As I'm busily trying to catch up with other things, does someone want to give this a shot? 
<<<


Okay, I'll give it a shot.  

Tell me how this sequence of events and calendar placements looks. 

1/24: W2 162, W2 163, W2 164, W2 165, W2 166 
1/28: W2 167-FB 
1/29: W2 167 (1-9p2) 
1/30: W2 167 (9p3-22), W2 168, W2 169 
2/5: X 111, UX 392, X 112, UX 393, X 113 (1-22) 
2/6: X 113 (23), W '01 (1-3) 
2/7: W '01 (4-7) 
2/8: W '01 (8-17) 
2/9: W '01 (18-24) 
2/11: [BTS -- Logan's call from Gus, as related in W '01/2] 
2/12: W '01 (25-27) 
2/13: W '01/2-FB (7p4-7p5) 
2/14: [BTS -- Logan's call from Gus' sister, as related in W '01/2] 
2/15: W '01/2 (3-13p1) 
2/16: W '01/2 (13p2-13p3) 
2/17: W2 170 (1-5) 
2/18: W2 170 (6-22), W2 171, W2 172, W2 173-FB (8-10) 
2/19: W2 173, W2 173/2 
2/20: W2 174 (1-7) 
2/21: W2 174 (8-22), W2 175, W2 175/2 (1-7) 
2/22: W2 175/2 (8), W2 176 
3/4: UX 394 
3/5: XFOR 116 (6-13) 
3/11: TB 57, TB 58 

Please check the calendar (page 2) for descriptions and for other titles whose plots may tie into developments in the above issues. It looks to me like this is doable, but I may be missing something.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 05:48 am    
By Dhall

Paul, this seems workable. It mainly involves moving UX 394 after W2 176. 
Now of course, where do the other anniversaries fall? 

Dave H

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 08:38 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Now of course, where do the other anniversaries fall? 
<<<


That's going to be problematic. If we're talking about February 22... 

The first anniversary would be between W2 89 and X 40. No problem there. 

The second anniversary would be between X 70 and X 71. The only problem there is that my tentative calendar placement suggests that Logan had to postpone his date with Matsuo a couple of days. Busy guy, you know. 

The third anniversary is a problem, as Feb. 22 would fall smack dab in the middle of the period in which Logan was replaced by Wolverine Skrull. Ugh. This would have been the anniversary in which I propose the slicing of two body parts instead of one. A different modus operandi...for a different Wolverine? Of course, why would the Skrull give a lick about Matsuo?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Oct 2004 10:09 pm    
By Dhall

I can't remember the specifics of the Skrull storyline from memory, but did the Skrull think it was the real Wolverine for a time? This would account for going after Matsuo..... 

Dave H.

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Posted: 31 Oct 2004 05:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

According to Xavier in UX 375, the Skrull "managed to achieve a remarkably accurate forgery of Wolverine, both physically and psychologically." Xavier theorizes that "Wolverine was replaced by a Skrull to infiltrate and observe us." Yet, if I'm not mistaken, the Wolverine Skrull experienced adventures as Logan that did not involve such infiltration and observation. He was acting just as Logan would in any of a number of circumstances, without anyone (including us) being any the wiser. So I suppose he had just as much motivation to exact vengeance of Matsu'o as he had to do other things. Of course, he would have had to know about Mariko's death and Logan's revenge to pay his visit to Matsu'o. Thoughts, anyone?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Oct 2004 06:29 pm    
By Starman

According to the comics, they were provided with a template of Wolverine's mind by Apocalypse, so that their Skrull pretending to be Wolverine would have all his memories. It also said in the comics that this template was so good that the spy was Wolverine in every aspect, except for the knowledge of being a Skrull imposter part, and not being as powerful as him. (Telling this straight from memory though, but I don't think I'm misremembering.)
_________________
John Hartigan: 
"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 31 Oct 2004 09:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I really would like it to be possible for the Wolverine Skrull to have been Matsu'o's attacker on the third anniversary, and the discrepency in execution on that occasion (two body parts instead of one, as theorized) explained by the fact that the assailant was not Logan. Now if the Skrull did indeed have all of Logan's memories (messed up as they were  ), that would explain his knowledge of Logan's anniversary vengeance ritual. Still, it doesn't explain motivation. It would be one thing if the Skrull truly believed himself to be Wolverine, but since he knew he was a Skrull (and also knew that he didn't share Logan's healing powers, as revealed in UX 375), I'm left wondering why he'd risk life and limb to go after Matsu'o. After all, no one aside from Matsu'o himself expected him to.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 05:44 am    
By Starman

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm left wondering why he'd risk life and limb to go after Matsu'o. After all, no one aside from Matsu'o himself expected him to. 
<<<

Just for fun?  *LOL* 

After all, he was crazy enough to fight the Hulk, so Matsuo would have been a piece of cake in comparison. 
_________________
John Hartigan: 
"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 08:28 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Just to clarify what everyone's discussing here: 

We're talking about taking a flashback clearly intended to be a specific charcetr ... and crediting it to a *different character*. Not because the flashback "can't possibly fit" into the real character's chronology -- but because it doesn't happen to fall in a convenient spot on this *calendar* we're cobbling together. 

Does anyone else see the folly of this train of thought? 

I thought the "calendar", just like the chronology, bent to the COMICS -- not vice versa. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 08:42 am    
By Starman

As the story, if I've understood it right, is about Matsuo's memories, I don't think it really matters if it really was Wolverine or the Wolverine Skrull imposter doing the act, as Matsuo's thinks it was Wolverine in all cases. 

But as the comics should overrule the calender, not the other way, then maybe the calender needs to be tweaked a little so it's actually Wolverine in all the cases? 

Sorry... 
_________________
John Hartigan: 
"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 10:15 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Exactly.  

I'm not too big a fan of the "merging two anniversaries into one because my personal calendar claims not enough years have passed" train of thought, either. Personally, I'd just take all four flashbacks and place them in equally-spaced increments from W2 #57 to #175. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 08:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Not quite sure what you're suggesting here, Jeph. 

How do you determine "equally-spaced increments" if you're not dealing with a calendar? Without a calendar or similar measurement of absolute time, you have no basis for determining what an "equal increment" of time is. Or do you just assume (incorrectly) that equal amounts of Marvel Time pass between each of those 118 issues...divide them into five equal runs to get four previous anniversaries...and come up with something like this: 
W2 80 
W2 175/2-FB 
W2 81 
... 
W2 104 
W2 175/2-FB 
W2 105 
... 
W2 127 
W2 175/2-FB 
W2 128 
... 
W2 151 
W2 175/2-FB 
W2 152 

Or are you suggesting we pretend that each "anniversary" occurred only 9 3/5 months apart for the sake of having four rather than three separate previous encounters with Matsu'o and (perhaps) avoiding the involvement of the Skrull? 

Or are you suggesting that we try to insert a whole extra year of Marvel Time into the calendar to accommodate one spoken reference by Matsu'o? 

I'm not a real fan of any of the above scenarios.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 08:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Regardless of the number of anniversaries, is there any objection to moving W2 175/2 (8) from Apr. 12 back to Feb. 22? The reason is to make the anniversary (whichever one it is) match a calendar date on which it is more likely for W2 57 to have occurred (before the Mardi Gras of X 9). It also moves issues of W2 around 175/2 out of the way of the tight chronology we're (okay, maybe I'm) weaving for the X-titles in another thread.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 08:32 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Well, don't take this the wrong way, but *I'm* not a real fan of ANY of the calendar-based suggestions offered in this thread. 

You often make the mistake, Paul, of telling us that your calendar represents "Marvel Time". It doesn't. It represents YOUR interpretation of the passage of time in the MU -- it might as well be called "Paul Time". And Paul Time throws out as many references from the comics as it keeps. 

The story clearly tells us that it's been five Marvel-years since W2 #57, and in those five years Wolvie has visited Matsu'o Tsurabaya four times -- each on the anniversary of W2 #57. 

Now going by "Marvel Time", which is mutable, expandable and compressable at will according to the whims of the writers -- that works great. But it doesn't fit into the fairly rigid calendar of Paul Time. 

So rather than honor the spirit of what the story's telling us -- four anniversaries, four attacks -- you're trying to hammer the story into your rigid grid. Let's make it three attacks! And one has to be the Skrull! 

Well, none of that comes from the story. 

And while you may find that hammering the story into a different shape is perfectly acceptable for your calendar -- your own *personal* calendar project -- I don't think that these placement suggestions are useful for the *MCP*'s placement of these flashbacks -- which I'd like to see honor the *spirit* of the story. 

No, I don't yet have a perfect suggestion of my own to offer -- but I wanted to step in and register my discomfort with mashing up flashbacks just so they can fit into Paul Time. 

It's nothing personal. And I'm trying to think of other suggestions. My best advice right now is "fairly evenly spaced apart, during periods where Logan is (a) either in Japan or free to travel to Japan, and (b) in the right costume/claw status quo." 

By the way -- you're suggesting moving W2 #175/2 back -- "from April 12 to Feb. 22" ... but, again, what does that mean in terms of before-and-after appearances for all involved? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 08:59 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I assume you're asking about before and after appearances for W2 175/2, not its flashbacks, since that's all I'm referring to here. I did post a sequence of issues earlier in this thread, but let me combine this with the list I posted on another thread, plus a few references to unchanged calendar dates. Not all listings involve Wolverine, but should give you a general sense of the order of things in the current proposal. 

1/24: W2 162, W2 163, W2 164, W2 165, W2 166 
1/28: W2 167-FB 
1/29: W2 167 (1-9p2) 
1/30: W2 167 (9p3-22), W2 168, W2 169 
2/5: X 111, UX 392, X 112, UX 393, X 113 (1-22) 
2/6: X 113 (23), W 01 (1-3) 
2/7: W 01 (4-7) 
2/8: W 01 (8-17) 
2/9: W 01 (18-24) 
2/11: [BTS -- Logans call from Gus, as related in W 01/2] 
2/12: W 01 (25-27) 
2/13: W 01/2-FB (7p4-7p5) 
2/14: [BTS -- Logan's call from Gus sister, as related in W 01/2] 
2/15: W 01/2 (3-13p1) 
2/16: W 01/2 (13p2-13p3) 
2/17: W2 170 (1-5) 
2/18: W2 170 (6-22), W2 171, W2 172, W2 173-FB (8-10) 
2/19: W2 173, W2 173/2 
2/20: W2 174 (1-7) 
2/21: W2 174 (8-22), W2 175, W2 175/2 (1-7) 
2/22: W2 175/2 (8), W2 176 
3/4: UX 394 
3/5: XFOR 116 (6-13) 
3/10: XFOR 120 
3/11: TB 57, TB 58 
3/12: DP3 60 (22p2-22p5) 
3/14: DP3 61 
3/16  XX 2-FB, XX 3-FB (22) 
3/29  SM:SC 1 (12-17) 
4/1  SM:SC 1 (52-56) 
4/2  XX 1, XX 2, XX 3 (1-8) 
4/3  XX 3 (11-14, 18-21, 23-24), XX 4 
4/4  CA3 50/6 (7-8) 
4/6  XU 36/3 (1-2p2) 
4/9  Kang War begins 
4/13  XU 36/3 (2p3-7p3) 
4/27  Kang War ends 
4/28  CYC 1 (1-5) 
4/29  CYC 1 (6-22), CYC 2 
4/30  CYC 3 (1-20) 
5/1  CYC 3 (21-22) 
5/2  CYC 4 (1-21) 
5/3  XU 36/3 (7p4-12), CYC 4 (22-23), ICE 1, ICE 2 
5/4  ICE 3, ICE 4 (1-18), X 114, X 115 
5/5  ICE 4 (19-21), X 116 
5/7  XX 5-FB 
5/8  X 01 (1-29), X 139-FB (15p4-15p5), X 139-FB (17p1-17p3) 
5/9  X 01 (30-42) 
5/10  UX 395 
5/11  UX 396 (1-6) 
5/12  UX 396 (7-22), UX 397 (1-6) 
5/13  UX 397 (7-22), UX 398 (1-19) 
5/14  UX 398 (20-22) 
5/15  XX:SL 1, XX:SL 2 
5/16  XX:SL 3, XX:SL 4 
5/18  X 117, X 118 (1-3) 
5/19  X 118 (6-15) 
5/20  X 118 (16-23), X 121 
5/21  UX 399 
5/22  UX 400 
5/23  UX 01, XX 5 (1-6) 
5/24  X 122, XX 5 (7-23) 
5/25  UX 401, XX 6, XX 7, XX 8 
5/26  XX9, UX 402, UX403, UX 404, UX 405, UX 406 (1-21), X 123, X 124, X 125, X 126 
5/27  UX 407 (1-15), BHOOD 6 (1-15) 
5/28  UX 407 (16-23), BHOOD 6 (16-22), C2 105 (1-21) 
5/29  ORDER 5, ORDER 6, BHOOD 7, C2 105 (22) 
5/30  XX 01, BHOOD 8 
5/31  BHOOD 9, PUN6 16, PUN6 17 
6/22  W/H 1, W/H 2, W/H 3, W/H 4 
6/30  W2 177 


"Paul Time?" I like it. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 09:52 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I thought you might.  

Please pardon any inferred snippiness from me, by the way -- I'm having a looong week and it's only Monday. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 2

Posted: 30 Oct 2004 02:08 am    Post subject: Quasar and the New Universe
By Dairhenien

I've read the FAQ and I saw that the New Universe was stated as being outside the Marvel Universe. A quick (and probably incomplete) search showed no mention of the appearance of DP7, Starbrand, and others in Quasar 31, as well as the wholesale movement of the New Universe Earth into the Marvel Universe by the Stranger during the Starmasters storyline. 

If appearance in multiple issues and titles is the criterion for inclusion, then the cross-title Starmasters storyline definitely qualifies. I guess I should just ask (1) should these characters be included at all, and (2) if so, would that include all their appearances, or merely the ones in non-New Universe titles? And for (3), what could I do to help, dependent on the answers to (1) and (2)?

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Nov 2004 04:50 pm    
By lkseitz

If you've read the FAQ, you should know about the (first) Gap. The main problem is this series falls in that Gap. I don't know if an announcement was ever made regarding whether the New Universe characters will be added to the MCP or not. 

I personally have a long-range goal of assembling a timeline/calendar for the New Universe. It shouldn't be too hard since most of the series took place in real time and, IIRC, many(?) issues state the date they occur. This, however, is way down on my list of things to do, so someone will probably beat me to it. I'm rather surprised it hasn't already been done.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 3

Posted: 02 Nov 2004 06:11 pm    Post subject: IRON MAN #101-#150
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

Iron Man #101 - #150 

* adjustment required 
** new entries 


Some of my BTS notations do not qualify under the current BTS definition, i.e. that while not actually appearing in the story, the character's actions still have an impact on the story. Impact being the key word. 

But as Jeph noted last spring (I think it was Jeph), there may be many types of BTS. Some of the BTSs below fall into the Secondhand mention/slight effect on story category. If something establishes WHERE a character is, or what they are doing during the time period of the issue in question, I tend to qualify it as a BTS. 

Filter as required 





APE MAN/GORDON "MONK" KEEFER 

UX 95 
**IM 116-FB 5p4-5p5 Recruited by Count Nefaria and locates Madame Masque 
IM 115 
IM 116 


ARBOGAST, BAMBI 

IM 125 
**IM 127 voice heard on intercom 30p7 
IM 129 
A 201 
IM 131 
**IM 133-BTS 2p3 Scott Lang tells Erica Sondheim that I just talked to Mrs. Arbogast 
IM 134 
IM 137 
** IM 140-BTS 5p1 Bethany Cabe talking to Tony Stark..  Mrs. Arbogast sent word that 
IM 142 


AVRIL, YVETTE 

IM 119 
IM 137 
**IM 142-BTS 8p1(or 11p1) (This issue has dual numbering1 set in the lower right of the last panel numbering panelled pages, and 1 set at the bottom middle of each page numbering all). Tony dictates a letter to Yvette Avril at the Paris branch, establishing that she is still in France. 
IM 146 
**IM 147 
IM 148 


BIRD MAN/HENRY HAWK 

UX 95 
**IM 116-FB 5p4 Recruited by Count Nefaria 
IM 115 
IM 116 


CABE, BETHANY 

**IM 128-FB 11p7-14p5 several years ago story of her marriage to Alexander Van Tilberg 
*IM 117 Should be IM 117-FB. The flashback (5p7 - 11p7) shows events prior to pg 1  5p6, i.e., leading up to the assassination attempt. It is during this flashback that Tony meets Bethany (10p6  11p2). 
IM 118 

. . . . . 

IM 133 
IM 134 (1-16p2) 
**IM 139-FB 3p4 Tony and Bethany leaving her apartment and catching a cab, still under observation by one of Madame Masques operatives (in IM 134 15p1-15p2 we are shown the operative noting when Tony arrives). Hardly adds anything new but it gets hard to weed these things out. 
IM 134 (16p3-30) 
IM 135 


CAT MAN/TOWNSHEND HORGAN 

UX 95 
**IM 116-FB 5p4-5p5 Recruited by Count Nefaria and locates Madame Masque 
IM 115 
IM 116 


COUNT NEFARIA, LUCHINO 

IM 114 
**IM 116-FB 5p3-5p4 escapes from Avengers mansion after the Avengers fight with Arsenal and recruits the Ani-men 
IM 115 
IM 116 


CRIMSON DYNAMO V/DIMITRI BUKHARIN 

**IM 110-FB 14p5-15p1 why Crimson Dynamo and the other Soviets were on the moon and why they attacked Iron Man in IM 109 
IM 109 


DARKSTAR/LAYNIA SERGEIEVNA PETROVNA 

PPTSS 18-FB 
**IM 110-FB 14p5-15p1 why Darkstar and the other Soviets were on the moon and why they attacked Iron Man in IM 109 
IM 109 


FROG MAN/FRANCOIS LE BLANC 

UX 95 
**IM 116-FB 5p4-5p5 Recruited by Count Nefaria and locates Madame Masque 
IM 115 
IM 116 


FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 

IM 118 
IM 119 (1-23p4) 
**IM 120-FB 3p2 shows Iron man and Nick Fury shaking hands. This immediately after Iron Man took care of a renegade SHIELD assassination cell. In light of the antagonism that will soon develop due to SHIELD attempting to gain control of Stark International, the symbolism of shaking hands is significant. 
IM 119 (23p5-end) 
IM 129 


HALE, JONAS 

IM 143 
**IM 145 6p3 
IM 244 


HAMMER, JUSTIN 

**IM 118-BTS 27p2 Hammer causes Iron Mans armour to malfunction as revealed in IM 126 11p7-14p1 
IM 120 
IM 122 
IM 123-BTS 
IM 124 
IM 125 
IM 126 
IM 127 
**IM 140-BTS Masterminding the attack on Stark Yacht 
IM 141 


IRON MAN/TONY STARK 

IM 103 
**IM 104-FB 10p3-11p5 Iron Man takes Madame Masque to Stark House and reveals his identity 
IM 104 

. . . . . 

FF 214 
**IM 117-FB (5p7 - 11p7) events prior to the assassination attempt pg 1  5p6 
IM 117 
IM 118 
IM 119 (1-23p4) 
**IM 120-FB 3p2 shows Iron man and Nick Fury shaking hands. This immediately after Iron Man took care of a renegade SHIELD assassination cell. In light of the antagonism that will soon develop due to SHIELD attempting to gain control of Stark International, the symbolism of shaking hands is significant. 
IM 119 (23p5-end) 
IM 120 

. . . . . 

IM 125 
**IM 126-FB 7p3 - 10p2 being recaptured following escape in IM 125 
IM 126 

. . . . . 

IM 134 (1-16p2) 
**IM 139-FB 3p4 Tony and Bethany leaving her apartment and catching a cab, still under observation by one of Madame Masques operatives (in IM 134 15p1-15p2 we are shown the operative noting when Tony arrives). Hardly adds anything new but it gets hard to weed these things out. 
IM 134 (16p3-30) 


IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 

IM3 20-FB 
M/SH3 15 
IM3 20-FB 
**{IM 118} 7p1-7p4 
{IM 120} 
IM 121 

. . . . . 

IM 125 
**IM 126-FB 7p3 - 10p2 being recaptured following escape in IM 125 
IM 126 


MADAME MASQUE/GIULIETTA KRISTINA NEFARIA/"WHITNEY FROST"/BIG M/"KRISSY LONGFELLOW" 

IM 103 
**IM 104-FB 10p3-11p5 Iron Man takes Madame Masque to Stark House and reveals his identity 
IM 104 

. . . . . 

IM 116 
IM 139-FB 
**IM 129-BTS as DIRECTOR, sent the Dreadnought I was sent by the Director 22p5 
IM 137-BTS 
IM 138 


MCPHERSON, LING 

IM 134 
IM 137 
**IM 138-BTS Doctor at the hospital gives report, 2p7, "Ling MacPherson is in stable but guarded condition 
IM 140 


SHOOTER, JIM 

**IM 123 2p5 (I am not up enough on the Marvel Creators to identify any of the other staff in the panel . 'Jim' is called by name and identified as editor (running editorial meeting) and Jim Shooter WAS the editor-in-chief for this issue. 
M-T2 11 
UX@ 7 
M/TU 137 


SITWELL, JASPER 

IM 103 
**IM 104-FB 10p3-11p5 11p5 Sitwell observes Iron Man kissing Madame Masque at Stark House 
IM 104 


SPYMASTER/"JAKE JORDAN" 

IM 36 
**IM 112 11p6 plotting to destroy Tony Stark & Iron Man 
IM 113-BTS 
**IM 114 22p1-22p3 stealing data 
IM 115-BTS 
IM 116 
**IM 117-FB (5p7 - 11p7) events prior to the assassination attempt pg 1  5p6 
IM 117 


SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 

IM 121-FB 
**IM 120-FB 16p1-16p4 confrontation between Roxxon and Hiram Dobbs/Submariner. Although colored by Hales bias and his attempt to mislead Iron Man, there is no reason to dispute his depiction of the confrontation that culminated with Sub-Mariner tossing the tank into the air that was seen in 6p5. 
IM 120 
IM 121 


SUNTURION/ARTHUR DEARBORN 

**IM 143-FB 22p4 - 23p3 (17 & 18 from inpanel numbering;22 & 23 from bottom of pg numbering) creation of Sunturion 
IM 143 
IM 144 


TITANIUM MAN/BORIS BULLSKI 

A 130 
**IM 135-FB 10p4-10p5 homesick; finds and rescues Unicorn 
IM 73 

. . . . 

IM 115 
**IM 132 6p3-6p5 
IM 134 


VANGUARD/NICOLAI KRYLENKO 

H2 259-FB 
H2 259-FB 
**IM 110-FB 14p5-15p1 why Vanguard and the other Soviets were on the moon and why they attacked Iron Man in IM 109 
{IM 109} 


VON FRANKENSTEIN, BARONESS VICTORIA 

FMON 18 
**IM 102-FB 15p4-16p3 her role in the creation of Dreadknight 
IM 102 


WHIPLASH/MARK SCARLOTTI/"MARK SCOTT" 

IM 124 
**IM 125 19p1-19p3 
IM 126 
IM 127 


WRAITH 

M/TU 51 
**IM 104-BTS 31p3 creates the mental image that Jack of Hearts sees. 
IM 105 
IM 106

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 03 Nov 2004 09:25 am    Post subject: Marvel Fanfare #31
By captamr

The 3rd story in Marvel Fanfare #31 is just an old 3-page Daredevil story used to fill out the issue. Problem is that Daredevils appearance seems to be placed in his chronological publication timeline rather than actual continuity. The story obviously portrays Daredevils life before Kingpins assault on Matt Murdocks life and his move to Hells Kitchen. Matt lives comfortably, wears a suit, and walks around as a blind man with a cane  scenes very similar to the events at the beginning of his downfall in DD 227. 

DAREDEVIL 

PPTSS 110 
** M/FAN 31/3 
DD 227 

 

DD 240 
M/FAN 31/3* (omit) 
DD 241
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Posted: 03 Nov 2004 07:42 pm    Post subject: Baron Strucker
By Enda80

I know that Nick Fury III#3-5 did some flashbacks to the last World War II battle between Strucker and the Howling Commandos. I know, as Robert Wicks writes below, that the 1994 Fury one-shot questioned much of the Gnobian backstory, but apparently Fury remembered the battle of Gruenstadt, so shouldnt that establish that that battle at least took place, though the Gnobian element was false? * 

http://www.geocities.com/jjnevins/wicks8.html 
http://www.geocities.com/jjnevins/wicksapp.html 


BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER 
........................ 
M/U 1 
M/U 2 
M/U 3 
*NF 3-FB 
*NF 4-FB 
*NF 5-FB 
N 10-FB 
.............. 
*Sidebar; Wicks points out the problems with Zola created the Gnobians retcon. I find it as one of those retcons that don't cover everything. How did they get hold of a Kree Sentry?

Last edited by Enda80 on 04 Nov 2004 03:07 am; edited 2 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2004 08:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

What is NF? 


watching: west wing

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 03:05 am    
By Enda80

BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER 
GAM3 10 
HMAG 23/2 
XFOR 64 
UX 268-FB 
{SGTF 5} 
INV 40 
SGTF 14 
SGTF 28 
SGTF 29 
CS 2-FB 
CS 2 
CS 3 
CS 4 
GAM3 10 
SGTF 114 
M/U 2-FB 
M/U 1 
M/U 2 
M/U 3 
*NF3 3-FB 
*NF3 4-FB 
*NF3 5-FB 
N 10-FB 
UX 161-FB 
N 8-FB-BTS 
DD 295-FB 
UTSM -1 
UTSM -1/2 
ST 150 
ST 151 
ST 152 


I meant Nick Fury volume 3.

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 01:34 am    Post subject: Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes #1
By John Simons

Yes, I know this is one of the books Russ said he didn't need analysis of, but as a big-time Avengers fan I was eager to see how this comic lined up with other stories taking place in the same time period. I figured as long as I was looking into it I might as well post my ideas. 

Tony Stark doesn't actually appear in anything between A 1 and the Avengers charter meeting (first seen in A 280- FB), so placing the first scene would seem to be a no-brainer. However, because the charter and by-laws are already written, this scene actually may have to be moved to between pp 14 and 15-- or alternatively pp 2-13 may need to be considered a flashback. I know that sounds ridiculous, but bear with me a sec. 

Clint appears, obviously, before adopting the Hawkeye identity in TOS 57. Interestingly, as he watches the new Avengers arrive at the mansion on TV, Thor arrives first, and Hulk later. This is the same order they are shown to arrive in in A 280- FB (p 5). 

Now, as mentioned above, the night the team first gathers at Tony Stark's townhouse to iron out the charter and whatnot was covered somewhat in the first FB of A 280 (running from p 4 pn 3- p 7 pn 4), the scenes depicted here would seem to follow, since the Avengers arrive in A 280, and the Hulk departs rather abruptly in A: EMH 1. Considering what an Avengers fan he professes to be in interviews, Joe Casey might've put a little more effort into making the two comics mesh better. 

In A 280, Tony tells Jarvis about who is coming. All the other staff are outraged and quit. Iron Man "arrives", then Thor, then Hulk. Jarvis faints and when he wakes up, Ant-Man and Wasp are hovering around his head. Jarvis serves dinner to the Avengers, then Iron Man announces they should work on a charter. Wasp is completely disinterested, and gets a tour of the house from Jarvis instead. By the time they get back, Hulk is still eating, but Iron Man announces that, "The Avengers are a team, with a complete set of rules and regulations. We'll print up the charter next week." 

In A: EMH 1, everyone (plus Rick Jones, who isn't depicted as being at supper) is gathered and seem to be drinking tea (maybe they just finished dessert). The first "uh-oh" from me occurs when Iron Man introduces Jarvis, as if they haven't already spent several hours together. Jarvis then hands out printed copies of what Shellhead describes as "both our charter and a proposed draft of our by-laws", implying that not only has the team not just finishing writing the charter together, but that Iron Man and Stark wrote it themselves with help from government officials. They all discuss the necessity of working with the government. They all sign the "original" parchment charter, except Hulk, who refuses. Rick signs his name for him. Hulk gets angry, argues with Iron Man and Thor, and then smashes through the roof on his way out. 

Like I said, Casey could've tried harder. But I don't think the continuity problems are insurmountable by any means, and here's how I would fudge it. 

On Iron Man's line about printing up the charter next week (moments before Jarvis walks through the door with envelopes full of printed charters), this can be interpreted as meaning he plans to distribute a printed version of what they came up with to the media in a week's time (they do hold a formal press conference in a week, see below). Or, alternatively, after Iron Man made the "next week" comment (between the A 280- FB and the scene in A: EMH 1) Jarvis said, "Not at all sir, I can type up the text of this parchment and have copies printed for you in an hour's time." 

On Iron Man's reintroducing Jarvis, we could explain line away as being specifically directed at Rick, since he wasn't present earlier. Also, the others might not know Jarvis' first name yet. 

When Iron Man says, "These envelopes contain both our charter and a proposed draft of our by-laws," we can read in an unspoken "which we hammered out earlier tonight." When he then begins, "I don't want you to feel like I'm hitting you with a stack of rules right off the bat" he isn't referring to the charter/by-laws, but rather the long list of government rules and such that he is about to launch into. In other words, during the A 280 FB they discussed the team-related rules such as chairmanship, membership, rules for disbanding, weekly stipends and whatnot. In A: EMH they are discussing outside business such as the NSC, gaining priority status and so on. 

So the dilemma is, how could Tony already have the charter and by-laws to send out on p 1 before the team has actually met to make them up? 

Okay, the next time they are all together as a team is after they have filed their charter with the New York state attorney general, when they hold a press conference to formally announce their existence. This is reported on in both IM : IA 1 (pp 7 & 8) and the beginning of A 1.5. Here's the problem: in A1.5 Walter Cronkite (!) reports that it has been "just a week" since the Avengers fought Loki at the auto plant. Unfortunately, events in IM: IA 1 show that Tony has an extremely busy schedule between these two events (that is, between p 22 of IM: IA 1 and p 7 of IM: IA 2) in which he is trying to save his business, first by jetting all around meeting government types and potential investors, then working round-the-clock with his people to design and build a prototype jet plane. Not to mention battle Saboteur and race in the Indy 500! It's an awful lot of activity to fit into a single week, no? 

Then, between A 1.5 and A 3 (A :EMH 1's next scene picks up right before A 3) come a ton of other books according to the MCP, including 6 issues worth of TOS appearences for Tony plus the rest of the IM: IA series. Yet, according to p 15 of A: EMH 1, just "two weeks" have passed since the charter meeting. Hiiiiighly unlikely. More like two months! Still, as long as the 2 weeks reference is disregarded and more time is dumped between Avengers appearences, it all works out. We simply have to accept that the Avengers didn't get together that much during the first couple months of their existence. 

The rest of the continuity in the issue is pretty straightforward. Pp 15 and 16 occur just before A 3, and pp 17 and 18 simply show p 12 pn 8 of A 3 from a different angle. The rest of the issue (pp 19-23) leads directly into their appearence on p 4 of A 4. 

So to sum up, Casey screwed the pooch on who wrote the charter and by-laws and when, and on a time reference or two, but otherwise there are no insurmountable obstacles in working this issue into established Avengers continuity.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 07:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

John, great job of analysis here. It sounds like you have a reasonable explanation for reconciling the discrepancies between A:EMH 1 and previously published scenes. Bravo! One favor, if you don't mind...would you plot the sequence of page and panel ranges from A 1-3, A 280-FB, IM:IA 1, A 1.5, and A:EMH 1 in proper order? That would be a big help. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 08:31 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Question: 

You say that in A #280-FB, Iron Man says that he'll print up the charter next week. 

In A:EMH #1 p.1, the charter is already printed up *before* the meeting -- and it's signed at a meeting where Rick attends, even though he wasn't there in A #280-FB. 

What's to stop the gathering in A:EMH #1 from being a DIFFERENT event than the one in A #280-FB? Say, the following week, after the charter was printed up? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 08:59 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Yes, I know this is one of the books Russ said he didn't need analysis of, but as a big-time Avengers fan I was eager to see how this comic lined up with other stories taking place in the same time period. I figured as long as I was looking into it I might as well post my ideas. 
<<<


Hey, whoa. I didn't post that to show what I was getting and therefore, didn't need analyses for. We welcome analyses of every issue. I was posting it first, to let everyone know what was expected to ship, and secondly, to specifically mention the books that I do need an analysis of. 

Having said that, this particular message doesn't really belong in the Issue Analysis forum, since it's not clear that you've listed all the appearances, but rather in the main Marvel Universe forum, since it appears to be a discussion strictly on chronological placement of the story. 


watching: american morning 

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 12:31 pm    
By John Simons

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Question: 
What's to stop the gathering in A:EMH #1 from being a DIFFERENT event than the one in A #280-FB? Say, the following week, after the charter was printed up? 
<<<

Oh for crying out--! What's to stop it, you say? Just my thick-headedness, that's what! I made the age-old mistake of assuming it was the same meeting... but I've now reread the A: EMH section twice and there is nothing to indicate that this must be the first time they've met at the mansion; it could and is their second team meeting. The news media must be making a big deal out of it because they didn't know about the first meeting. Iron Man's introduction of Jarvis and the paperwork must be specifically for Rick's benefit. D'OH! 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Hey, whoa. I didn't post that to show what I was getting and therefore, didn't need analyses for. We welcome analyses of every issue. 
<<<

Okay, I get it now. When you said, "Analyses of any unstarred ones would be appreciated", I took that to mean you have no use for analyses of starred books. I stand corrected (again!) 


Quote: 
>>>
Having said that, this particular message doesn't really belong in the Issue Analysis forum, since it's not clear that you've listed all the appearances, but rather in the main Marvel Universe forum, since it appears to be a discussion strictly on chronological placement of the story. 
<<<

No problem, now that I know it's okay I'll add a proper analysis to this thread (yes Paul, citations too) to make it "legal"-- hopefully later this afternoon but possibly not until the weekend.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 01:06 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Yay! I helped! 

And I'll just use my magic moderator powers to move this thread to the MU forum. You can start a new analysis thread whenever you get around to it ... so no pressure, yes? 

And John, your Target comic is all packaged up and will be mailed today.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 03:47 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Yay! I helped! 
<<<

It's a sad state of affairs when that's the highlight of your day, Jeph. :wink:

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 11:56 pm    Post subject: Harry LeLand
By captamr

Harry Leland is present at the formation of the Lords Cardinal in the backup story of Classic X-Men #7: 

LELAND, HARRY 

X:HC 4  FB 
**CX 7/2 
M/SH3 11/3
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 30 Jul 2004 09:31 pm    Post subject: Gwen Stacy and Marvel Time (spoilers)
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

In this week's Amazing Spider-Man #510, we're led to believe that Spidey's mysterious assailants, Gabriel and Sarah, are in fact the twin children of Gwen Stacy, delivered while Gwen was in London, circa ASM 94-98. Gabriel and Sarah are obviously not kids, which (unless age acceleration is involved) supports the postulation that a lot more than 10 years have passed since FF 1. (Even if they're not Gwen's kids, Peter isn't surprised by their age when he learns the twins' relationship to Gwen.) 

ASM 94-98 occurred in December of Peter Parker's sophomore year of college -- the end of Year 5 of the calendar. I have ASM 510 placed in the fall of Year 22, making Gabriel and Sarah nearly 17 years old, which is believable. 

Could it be at least some folks at Marvel are stretching the official Marvel timeline at last?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jul 2004 04:26 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Nah, it's misdirection. Look at all those blanks in the letter. It's the old trick where they turn out to be somebody completely different, and their names were mentioned by Gwen in a totally separate context. 

Realistically, after years of holding off any aging on Spider-Man, there's no way in hell Marvel are going to give him two adult children.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jul 2004 09:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Nah, it's misdirection. Look at all those blanks in the letter. It's the old trick where they turn out to be somebody completely different, and their names were mentioned by Gwen in a totally separate context. 
<<<

But Spidey appears to believe that Gabriel and Sarah are Gwen's children. (And no one said they were Peter's, BTW!) Why would he jump to that conclusion, given the blanks you mention, if there's no way children of hers would be more than, say, six years old? The next issue may shed more light on what's going through Peter's head. Maybe some thought balloon will say, "But...that's not possible! Gabriel and Sarah are clearly way too old to be her...our...children!" Or maybe, "Somebody's got to be behind this! Somebody with...an age acceleration ray!" But if Peter genuinely believes enough time has passed since ASM 94-98 for Gabriel and Sarah to be their apparent ages, that's a clue about the passage of Marvel time that, at least, works in my favor.  

Quote: 
>>>
Realistically, after years of holding off any aging on Spider-Man, there's no way in hell Marvel are going to give him two adult children.. 
<<<

Who says Marvel's going to be consistent about the aging of their characters? Why start now?  
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Aug 2004 04:09 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Yeah, but even on your timeline, Gwen Stacy's kids from that period would be... what? Twelve? Fifteen? It doesn't make sense on any view. It's just inept writing.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Aug 2004 12:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Yeah, but even on your timeline, Gwen Stacy's kids from that period would be... what? Twelve? Fifteen? 
<<<

As noted earlier: 
Quote: 
>>>
ASM 94-98 occurred in December of Peter Parker's sophomore year of college -- the end of Year 5 of the calendar. I have ASM 510 placed in the fall of Year 22, making Gabriel and Sarah nearly 17 years old, which is believable.  
<<<

And don't forget, Peter was Spider-Man at an age younger than that. But then there's always the excuse of time travel; Gabriel and Sarah could be from the future. Could Peter take such issues as time travel and age acceleration for granted to such a degree that he'd think right away that the twins could indeed be Gwen's children? Looks like we'll have to stay tuned. 

Bring this topic a little closer to the MCP... 

Where does the flashback in ASM 510 fit chronologically? It's just before Gwen's death, it's confirmed that Harry has been taking drugs again, and Peter is in New York City. Judging from the synopses in the Official Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man #5, I'd guess it would go between ASM 120 and 121. I don't have the original comics, however, so I wonder if ASM 510-FB makes sense there.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2004 11:56 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

The following text was posted by JMS on his Usenet forum, and sheds a little more light, (if only a little) on what to expect in the next few issues of this new Gwen Stacy storyline, (and he also brings up the passage of time, which is what we're wondering about in this thread): 

JMS: 

"To jump in here...as much as I can, I always try to do my homework, and I'd have to be the sloppiest writer in the history of...well, really sloppy writers to not take into account the time factor in Spidey chronology, and deal with it straight-up in the writing. And we do, about two issues down the road, address this issue in absolutely straightforward terms. 

The math not only works, in fact it becomes a major aspect of the story, as you will see in about two months. 

To the broader questions raised here...I don't generally believe in cheats. In B5, we only did one time-travel story (across two episodes, showing both sides of that story) and I went clear around the horn to make sure that there were no cheats in that story. 

This isn't a time travel deal, it's not an alternate history story, it's not a hoax, it's not a clone story, it's not, in short, a *cheat*. I have too much respect for the readers to do that. Is it what people are assuming it is, with only part of the information? Yes...and no. All the information isn't out there yet. 

All I can say is...it isn't a throw-away, reset the button story, it's the real deal. 

The amusing thing has been watching some of the online critics who, being themselves unable to think how it could be done in a way that isn't stupid, come to the assumption that the story is going to be as stupid as those assumptions...and go after it as a result, not understanding that it's the parameters they're seeing inside their own head that they're reacting to, not what's in the story...because the story hasn't been told in full yet. 

There are four more issues to go in this story, and every one of them is a real toad-strangler."
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2004 03:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The math not only works, in fact it becomes a major aspect of the story, as you will see in about two months.  
<<<


Hmmm. That sounds promising... 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2004 09:40 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

"Toad-strangler"? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 02:31 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In this week's Amazing Spider-Man #510, we're led to believe that Spidey's mysterious assailants, Gabriel and Sarah, are in fact the twin children of Gwen Stacy, delivered while Gwen was in London, circa ASM 94-98. Gabriel and Sarah are obviously not kids, which (unless age acceleration is involved) supports the postulation that a lot more than 10 years have passed since FF 1. 
<<<


Bad news for you, I'm afraid. Preview pages for ASM 511 open with Peter thinking to himself that they can't possibly be his and Gwen's kids, because they're far too old.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 07:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Not necessarily. We can't really tell how old Gabriel and Sarah are. I posit that they would be 16, but for all we know they could appear ten or more years older than that to Peter.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 08:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Think you're fighting an uphill battle on this one. If your theory is correct, then they *could* be Peter and Gwen's kids. But the story is saying (using Peter to say it), that they *can't* be his kids, *because* they're too old. Yes, Peter *could* be overestimating their age, but he's not, because that's clearly not where the story is leading. 


watching: boys vs girls

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 09:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Think you're fighting an uphill battle on this one.  
<<<

I always am when I'm dealing with the passage of Marvel Time. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 09:23 pm    
By Shmi

I don't think Gwen had Peter's children. (Does anyonre really believe she did?) Mary Jane had considerable complications when she was pregnant. Because the complications were related to Peter's Spider-Man-ness, I think Gwen would have had the same problems. 

She probably had a miscarriage. (Or possibly just a pregnancy scare if they really want a cop-out.) 

It's also possible she had a baby/babies before she met Peter and gave them up for adoption. I follow the about 15 years since FF #1 theory. That would mean that Peter and Gwen were together about 11 (?) years ago. But Gwen could have had a child when she was 14/15. That would make the child 15-16. It could work. 

(Peter did get his powers during his sophmore year and just a few months after the FF, didn't he?) 

That's probably not the case though. I doubt they'd put a teen pregnancy in Gwen's past. And even if that were the case, why was she writing to Peter about it then? It'll probably be something wierd.  

Unfortunately, there will probably always be conflicting references within Marvel time. We have to pick. I pick the ones that I see used most consistantly. (But I only read a few titles, so I'm probably way off.)

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 09:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
(Peter did get his powers during his sophmore year and just a few months after the FF, didn't he?)  
<<<

Peter got his powers during the spring semester of his sophomore year of high school. FWIW, I theorize that this occurs in March of Calendar Year 2 -- a year after FF 1, which I've placed on Feb. 27 of Calendar Year 1.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2004 08:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Well, having just read ASM 511, interpretation of the passage of Marvel Time is still up for grabs. Peter thinks, "Even if she did have kids, they'd still be children, they wouldn't have aged enough to -- unless they weren't born normal kids to begin with." 

My calculations have Gabriel and Sarah as 16-year-olds, an age that Peter may consider to be "children," and an age that is younger than the apparent physical age of the twins. So, yes, I'm still hanging in there, although the story isn't over yet, and there's plenty of opportunity for a firm reference to a span of time much less than 16-17 years. 

Then there was the reference everyone was waiting to see -- Peter: "I swear to God, M.J., they're not my children. Gwen and I didn't...we never--." And M.J. knows he's telling the truth because she knows who the real father is. Peter's sexual morality is maintained, much to the relief of many Spidey fans. 

We'll see what ASM 512 brings...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2004 08:47 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Then there was the reference everyone was waiting to see -- Peter: "I swear to God, M.J., they're not my children. Gwen and I didn't...we never--." And M.J. knows he's telling the truth because she knows who the real father is. Peter's sexual morality is maintained, much to the relief of many Spidey fans. 
<<<


In my mind, it's more like Gwen's sexual morality is maintained, whom I had a crush on, as an adolescent. I don't care one way or the other about Peter. 

Actually, I had always assumed that the big fireworks moment took place right after she returned from London, at the end of ASM 98. 


watching: on the record

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 02:29 pm    
By Shmi

Spoiler for ASM 512. 

S 

P 

O 

I 

L 

E 

R 

S 

P 

A 

C 

E 

I just got my copy of ASM 512. It confirms accelerated aging for Gwen's kids. Gwen was only pregnant for seven months, but the babies weren't physically premature. If they continued aging at that rate then a physically maturity of 16 would take about 12.5 years. Of course, they could be aging faster or slower since then. Maybe we'll find out next month. 

Peter did say they were dying. If they have only a short time left to live then their aging may be accerating more as they get older. But how would Peter know that? And his words could just as easily apply to the way their lives sould be shortened by about 15 with that rate of aging.

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 07:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I just got my copy of ASM 512. It confirms accelerated aging for Gwen's kids. Gwen was only pregnant for seven months, but the babies weren't physically premature. If they continued aging at that rate then a physically maturity of 16 would take about 12.5 years.  
<<<


Assuming a constant aging ratio and the accuracy of my estimate for the passage of MU time (yeah, yeah...two BIG assumptions  ), the twins would be physically 22 at this point.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 09:11 pm    
By Shmi

I'm not sure if that will work. Peter refers to them as having aged "nearly to adulthood."

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 08:10 am    
By skull

S 

P 

O 

I 

L 

E 

R 

So, it's possible?? 
I've heard the father of the kids isn't Peter at all, but (incredible, IMPOSSIBLE!!)... Norman? <-- in white 

She was "magnetically attracted" by THAT man??? 

Please, tell me they sadistically pulled my legs...


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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 09:06 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I'm not sure if that will work. Peter refers to them as having aged "nearly to adulthood." 
<<<

It was too good to believe.  In my estimation, age acceleration would not have been necessary for the twins to be nearly adults. But Marvel doesn't want to acknowledge that much time as having passed. Alas, the old passage of Marvel Time conundrum...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 09:57 pm    
By shandrakor

Clearly, you just need to finish the calendar, and mail the editors each a copy. 

Maybe after seeing that you put in a thousand times more effort than any of them, they'll believe you...

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 06:32 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

LOL. Thanks for that.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 08:35 am
By skull

Nobody answers me... maybe 'cause I'm little, ugly and foreigner...  



 

Seriously, maybe someone can confirm the "revelations" of Amazing Spider-Man 512?? 

Even in PM, if it's a so big spoiler... 

Thanks 

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 08:38 am    
By shandrakor

Then again, believing you would mean writing Peter Parker as a man in his early thirties, and eventually his forties. Somehow I just don't believe that outside of Earth X style projects that we'll ever see a middle-aged Spiderman.

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 11:12 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

skull wrote: 
>>>
Nobody answers me... maybe 'cause I'm little, ugly and foreigner...  
<<<

Actually, it's because you're not talking about how the book relates to chronology. 

If you want to discuss the plot of the book, or ask for spoilers, try our Chat forum -- or the Spider-Man Message Board over on Comicboards. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 01:23 pm    
By skull

Ooops! 

Sorry Jeph, I misunderstood this discussion...  

My fault!

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 02:19 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

No worries. Personally, I'm disgusted by the idea of Norman/Gwen too... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 02:29 pm    
By Ant-Man

Hey, he's an older man...wealthy...powerful...funny "hair lines" on his head...what's not to like? 
*gag* 

_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 04:45 pm    
By skull

Really! It's an awful and somewhat sadistic idea that's literally ruining all over the Spider-fandom, even here in Italy... I wonder if Straczynski understand what he's doing... 

Sorry again, end OT!! 
And thanks!

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Posted: 30 Sep 2004 06:23 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Shmi wrote: 
>>>
I'm not sure if that will work. Peter refers to them as having aged "nearly to adulthood." 
<<<


Where is this quote at? From my own interpretation of the issue, I'd say that JMS left it pretty open to interpretation...he could've gone the usual comic writer route, and give a specific year. Something like, "10 years go" or something similar...but instead, he's been pretty broad in how much time has passed since the babies were born. For those that want an eternally young Peter Parker, they can rationalize that Gwen died 7 to 10 years ago, (or whatever)...those who want to view Peter as being older can say it's been 16 to 20 years, (which helps out Paul's calender). So it's all good... 

Deadato's artwork could support the twins being in their late teens, or in their 20's... 


Quote: 
>>>
In my mind, it's more like Gwen's sexual morality is maintained, whom I had a crush on, as an adolescent. I don't care one way or the other about Peter. 
<<<

Poor Russ...hell, poor me! This latest issue blew my mind! I don't want to stray off topic, so I'll just keep it short and say...I'll never think of Gwen Stacy the same way again, (I too pictured her as innocent and pure, but that image has been forever shattered...but still, this was a powerful read). 

To keep this closer to the topic of continuity, I can't imagine Gwen doing this to Peter while they were truly dating, (no matter how much she was "magnetically attracted"). Wasn't there a brief period or two were Peter and Gwen temporarily broke up? Maybe they got back together as a couple, only for Gwen to find out in private she was pregnant...anyone care to speculate on around which issue of ASM Gwen "did the deed"?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Sep 2004 07:54 pm    
By Shmi

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Shmi wrote: 
>>>
I'm not sure if that will work. Peter refers to them as having aged "nearly to adulthood." 
<<<
<<<


Where is this quote at?  


On page 15. (We don't count ad pages do we?) The dialogue box over the panel of Gwen in labor reads 

"The modifications to his genetic structure would have been passed on to the twins in a way that sped up their development . . . Which explains why they were born prematurely but fully grow, and how they aged nearly to adulthood in the relatively short time since Gwen died."

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Posted: 10 Oct 2004 09:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
To keep this closer to the topic of continuity, I can't imagine Gwen doing this to Peter while they were truly dating, (no matter how much she was "magnetically attracted"). Wasn't there a brief period or two were Peter and Gwen temporarily broke up? Maybe they got back together as a couple, only for Gwen to find out in private she was pregnant...anyone care to speculate on around which issue of ASM Gwen "did the deed"? 
<<<


I'll throw out the first theory about when Gwen became pregnant. The first flashback in ASM 512, in which Mary Jane discovers Gwen's pregnancy (an elaboration of the flashback we saw in ASM 510), occurs within a couple of weeks after Gwen gave birth (which we see in the second flashback in ASM 512). We know this because the twins were born seven months after conception and M.J. noted that her discovery occurred seven months after the conception -- so the birth (2nd flashback) occurred the same month as M.J.'s discovery (1st flashback). Furthermore, in that first FB, Gwen tells Norman that the twins were born early and in France, implying that this is shortly after the birth. 

Now M.J.'s discovery scene ties into the storyline that unfolds in ASM 119, with Harry's resumption of drug problems. Furthermore, that first flashback in ASM 512 shows Norman getting the idea to kill Gwen, and that task is carried out in ASM 121; one gets the impression that Norman was not going to let Gwen live long after threatening to expose their secret. So, we can conclude that M.J.'s discovery occurs just before ASM 119, and that the birth of the twins occurred earlier that month. 

ASM 119 likely occurs in February, and thus the birth likely occurs earlier that month. That would mean that the conception occurred in July, seven months earlier. So what was happening the July before? 

Well, this is about the time of the story arc that appeared in ASM 100-104. In ASM 102, Gwen feels that Peter intends to break up with her and breaks down in tears. It is a couple of days until Gwen gets back together with Peter in ASM 103. I theorize that Gwen got together with Norman (in the third flashback in ASM 512) between ASM 102 and 103. According to M.J., the occasion of Gwen's and Norman's relations was prompted by a visit Gwen made to Norman. We don't know the reason for the visit, at least not yet. The next issue of ASM may provide more clues, and quite possibly ones that will discredit my theory.  

But in the meantime, does this placement of flashbacks in ASM 512 make sense?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:23 pm    
Byt Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, I propose something slightly different: 

I did some flipping through Essential Spiderman #5 last week, (didn't pick it up, I've got money constraints after all!) but I did some research... 

Gwen's father Captain Stacy dies in ASM 90. The following issue has Gwen and Peter break up. Gwen is distraught during this time period, and vulnerable. She heads over to England at some point to visit some relatives. ASM 96-98 have Harry doing drugs, and Norman Osborn having one of his famous "breakdowns" and resuming the Goblin identity. Peter snaps Norman out of it in ASM 98, by getting Norman to focus on his son Harry's, who's sick from overdosing on pills. Upon Gwen coming back to the states at the end of ASM 98, her and Peter immediately get back together. 

Either the infamous "Norman/Gwen affair" happened right before Gwen left for England, when Norman was starting to break down, (though I'm not clear on what he was breaking down for here) or it occured right after she got back in ASM 98, but before she meets back up with Peter and they reunite, (this is when Norman is dealing with discovering Harry's a drug addict, so it does provide an explanation for his being distraught). 

I think our best best is between ASM 90 and 99 somewhere...any more specific than that, I'd have to do more research, (meaning I'd have to buy the book)! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:49 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Well, Gwen says in the flashback in #512 that the twins were born "in France, while I was trying to figure out what to do..." That suggests to me that the affair was before she left for England in ASM #93. Although she originally left for London, it's possible that she had to leave England for what may have been considered seriously taboo. 

Here's a thought, too. Didn't we have a problem reconciling the ASM #90-93 with Spider-Man: Death & Destiny? Gwen had gotten over things mostly at the end of that mini -- which supposedly takes place right after ASM #90 -- but she's still quite upset in ASM #93. This pregnancy thing could explain that whole thing.

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 11:53 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, I've finally caught up on my reading of Amazing, finishing #512 last night. I've always tried to limit my personal comments about the quality of the writing or story in posts here, and I'll restrain myself here, too, at least until the final chapter (next issue?). 

But if I don't get what I want, I won't restrain myself. Here's what I want: I want Gwen Stacy's innocence returned. And I'm perfectly happy with a "cheat." In fact, that's the only way that I see for Straczynski to extricate himself from this satisfactorily, but again, I'll wait to see how it turns out. 

But Mr. S? Give...us...back...Gwen's memory. Oh, and then, don't touch her again. 


watching: ...too disgusted to watch anything

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 07:49 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I got to looking at the Essential Spiderman Vol. 5 again at the comic shop today. I agree with Sean now: I suspect our best bet is between ASM 92 and ASM 93, right before Gwen leaves for London. She's just broken up with Peter at this time, her father is dead, she's upset and distraught...now we don't see Norman around those issues, and we don't see him again till ASM 96, (unless I'm mistaken). So what's Norman so upset about to cry on Gwen's shoulder? Well, though we don't have a reason, it's not like Norman was exactly mentally stable during this time period...he broke down and resumed being the Goblin in ASM 96...I suppose he could've been in emotional turmoil a few issues prior, around ASM 92 and 93.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 08:46 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'll personally refrain from discussing character motivations until the arc is complete (although, speaking as someone who's pretty familiar with the stories from that period--and *very* familiar with the character--saying that Gwen was "upset" or "distraught" doesn't cut it, as a character motivation for what we're being told were Gwen's actions) and try to address the chronological implications. 

I'm missing the point in Gwen's chronology where she started to show. And with twins, no less. Twins who were aging in utero at an advanced rate. 


watching: blank screen 


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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 09:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

We could try to figure out when Gwen became pregnant and determine the twins' birth by determining a point seven months after that. Or we could figure out when the twins would have been born and determine the point of conception by working seven months back from that. 

Question: when would the first flashback in ASM 512 (the extended version of the flashback in ASM 510, in which M.J. discovered the secret about Gwen and Norman) make sense in the chronology of Harry Osborn's drug problem? Between what pages and panels of what issues of ASM? We know the beginning of the second flashback in ASM 512 (the birth of the twins) occurs shortly before that point, then we go back another seven months. Is it even possible to line up in this fashion a logical point of conception (the third FB in ASM 512) and, as Russ points out, a period of time in which Gwen's pregnancy had to have showed but no one would have been any the wiser? That point about the pregnancy showing is as critical as determining a point in time when Gwen would have even entertained the notion of sleeping with Norman. Yet "Sins Past" doesn't even address how Gwen would have been able to keep her pregnancy secret from Peter.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 10:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Is it even possible to line up in this fashion a logical point of conception (the third FB in ASM 512) and,  
<<<

I'm reluctant to say that's a flashback. It's more like a dream sequence, with Peter picturing the nightmare event, in his mind. 


watching: sportscenter

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 11:15 pm    Post subject: Timeline ASM 100-120
By awe4one

I read and detailed all the Amazing Spider-Man issues from 100-120, with a focus on Peter/Gwen, this past weekend. I originally posted this on the RACMU newsgroup. There is no room for this pregnancy due to the established timeline... 

ASM 100 

- Peter speaks of Gwen and how they are back together again. Ponders on 
going to see her. 
- Sees the complications of telling her he's Spidey so decides that 
"Spider-Man Must Die". 
- Takes some homemade potion and starts hallucinating. 
- Wakes up with six arms. 

-- This happens over an afternoon 

Note: Gwen doesn't appear in story other than in flashback. Also, not 
clear on long Peter was unconcious but no mention made on anyone looking for 
him so it couldn't have been long. 

ASM 101 

- Follows directly after ASM 100 
- Calls Gwen/Has to get off and can't explain what going on. Says he has 
to go out of town. 
- Peter tries to get Dr Conner's help 
- He becomes the Lizard/Morbius shows up 

-- It happens nighttime same day as 100 

Note: Gwen not pregnant 

ASM 102 

- Gwen is shown waiting for Peter's call. Mentions it's been two days since 
Peter called. 
- Worries about Aunt May. Calls May. May hasn't heard from Peter. 
- Gwen starts crying. 
- Peter is cured at the end. 

-- Based on Gwen, two days have passed since 101. 

Note: Gwen not pregnant 

ASM 103 

- Peter mentions he lost the arms "last night" 
- Refers to the phone call of a "couple days ago" 
- Next day, Peter talks with Gwen 
- They have obviously made up. 
- Robbie calls and tells Peter to saddle up and get to Antarctica. 
- Gwen pissed starts to cry. 
- Takes Gwen to see JJJ and maybe? tell him he's getting married (not clear 
waht he was going to say actually) 
- JJJ sees Gwen and talks her in to going to Antarctica for a photo shoot 
(JJJ: "A girl like you is just what my expedition needs.") 
- Gwen agrees/Off to Antarctica they go - 2 days have before they start 
their way south 
- Add in a week to get to Antarctica (a wag - could have taken longer but 
Gwen and Peter together the whole way) 
- Gwen in a bikini (two piece) 
- Gwen taken by the monster Gog 
- Gwen taken to Kraven 
- Ka-Zar shows up 
- Spidey hits quicksand 

-- This story could easily take up to two weeks to occur. Gwen is with Peter 
for everything but the first day. 

Note: Gwen is clearly not pregnant. This is a really fun story by the way. 

ASM 104 

- Story starts directly after ASM 103 
- Ka-Zar saves him 
- Cut to Gwen having discussion with Kraven/Still in two-piece 
- Kraven tell her she's been selected to be his mate 
- Kraven says he loves it in the Savage Land and wants to rule it. 
- Ka-Zar shows up to put the smackown on Kraven 
- Kraven falls over cliff 
- Spidey distracts Gog 
- Gog gets in a fight with a Rex/Beats Rex goes after Spidey again. 
- Spidey lures Gog to quicksand pit 
- Gwen is returned to JJ and group 
- They all think Peter's dead but he shows at the end. 

-- All happens in the same day as ASM 103 

Note: Gwen clearly not pregnant. Again, this is a great set of issues with 
wonderful Gil Kane art. 

ASM 105 

- Starts with Peter on NY rooftop saying he's glad he's back from the 
jungle. 
- See JJJ near start riot at demonstartion 
- Saves JJJ from a beating 
- Harry is apparently getting out of the hospital today/Party's at May's 
- Arrives to talk with May 
- Everyone arrives to include Gwen and Flash who's returned from Vietnam 
- Gwen and Flash start talking quite a bit more than Peter likes 
- Harry arrives with Norman/Harry looks terrible. 
- Peter thinks something is wrong with Flash 
- Cut to JJJ paying Smythe for a new Spider-Slayer 
- Next day, Spidey is webslingling and the Slayer attacks/Apparently JJJ has 
control issues...should practice more on the Atari 
- Spidey knocked out 
- Spidey recovers and is caught on camera taking off his mask 

-- OK...give two weeks for trip back from Antarctica...and two days for this 
story 

Note: Gwen is not pregnant 

ASM 106 

- Starts immediately after 105 
- Peter puts mask back on. 
- Spidey finds camera and wonders if anyone saw him 
- Goes to see Doc Conner to use lab/Makes fake Peter mask 
- Cut to Smythe who's showing off his camera system to gangsters 
- Find Spidey on wall unmasked/Spidey takes fake Peter mask off to reveal 
normal mask 
- Finds JJJ at demonstration/This time as supporter 
- Spidey goes home to make date with Gwen 
- Harry there and says he can't sleep/Says he digs MJ 
- MJ shows up with pizza and traveling party for Harry 
- Peter meets up with Gwen for date 
- Gwen suggests they stop by to see Flash/She's worried as he "hasn't looked 
well since he returned from Vietnam" 
- Peter doesn't seem amused 
- Go to Flash's and he complains how hard it is to readapt to civilian 
life/He's quite rude 
- Gwen says she's worried and reinforces to Peter that Flash is just a 
friend/They liplock 
- Peter drops off Gwen and starts a'webslinging 
- Spidey is causght in giant web and the Spider-Slayer on it way down to get 
him. 

-- There's obviously a day that goes by here. The cut to Smythe and the 
gangsters seem to happen the next day. 

Note: Gwen still not showing signs of being pregnant. 

ASM 107 

- Start immediately after 106 
- A quick recap of all the previous Slayers 
- Slayer captures Spidey 
- Takes Spidey to see gangsters 
- Peter thinks of Gwen 
- Cut to Gwen at school wondering where Peter is and feeling jealous that MJ 
may have met him first 
- Flash pops out of the bushes to apologize for being rude last isue 
- Flash says he cares for Gwen as more than "friends"/Gwen tells him she and 
Peter's love is for real 
- Asks Flash to tell her whats bothering him 
- Cut back to Spidey still being rapped up by Slayer 
- Spidey breaks free, deactivates Slayer and goes after Smythe/Smythe 
barricades himself behind metal shields 
- Spidey goes after gangsters on the way to rob a bank/Stops gangsters 
- Smythe shows up in another Slayer/Spidey captures Smythe 
- Spidey confronts JJJ for paying Smythe 
- Spidey returns home to see Flash and Gwen together/Flash being taken away 
by military escort 
- Sees Gwen crying 

-- All happens in one day 

Note: Gwen not showing signs of pregnancy 

ASM 108 

- Start immediately after 107/Spidey follows car 
- Car gets in accident/It's an ambush 
- Spidey stops ambush and gets Flash out/Takes him to rooftop 
- Flash recounts being involved with shelling of a Vietnamese town/Because 
of it Flash has a bounty on his head 
- Spidey takes Flash to Federal Building for protection 
- Peter goes back to home/May should be there 
- Peter enters Apt to find May on the floor wondering what a liquid seeping 
under the floor is (turns out to web fluid) 
- Peter explains it away as paste for a Master's Thesis 
- Gwen shows up/Tells Peter that Flash is in trouble/Peter wonders why she 
would be so concerned 
- Gwen and Peter go to the Fed Building.Spidey sense goes off 
- Peter throws Spider tracer on big Oriental guy right before an explosion 
- In the dark, Peter (sans costume) starts fighting people trying to take 
Flash/Takes a pounding by big guy 
- Watches as car with Flash drives away/Gwen enters looking for Peter 
- Peter says he needs to go (to change costume) but Gwen goes off saying 
whenever there's trouble he always run off and people for years have called 
him a coward. She says "if you love me--stay with me" 

-- All happens in one day (though it's night now) 

Note: Gwen not showing signs of pregnancy 

ASM 109 

- Starts immedately after 108 
- Goes to the bathroom/changes into costume/makes a web mannequin and 
dresses it it his clothes/swings off as if he's holding Parker so everyone 
can see 
- Gwen worried 
- Meets up with Dr Strange 
- Shows Spidey that Flash has been taken to see the High Priest 
- Both go to find Flash 
- Meanwhile Gwen goes to Peter's Apt looking for him/sees Harry and May/goes 
off on May that Peter's a man not a boy and professes her love for 
him/Apologizes to May 
- Spidey and Strange show up to rescue Flash/Priest explains that Flash is 
not at fault for bombing in Vietnam/Flash i overjoyed and tells Spidey he 
can't wait to tell Gwen 
- Spidey goes off thinking how he'll compete with Flash 

-- Happens the same night as ASM 108 

Note: Gwen not pregnant and Peter sure has a inferiority complex going on 

ASM 110 

- Starts immedately after 109 
- Spidey apparently on his way home pissed about the Flash/Gwen thing picks 
up clothes along the way 
- Arivves home to a waiting May, Harry, and Gwen 
- Gwen's thrilled/May starts doting and stops because of her and Gwen talk 
last issue 
- Peter near passes out from being tired and Gwen, again, expresses her love 
- Flash shows up/starts to flirt with Gwen/she's having none of it and says 
about Peter "he's all the man I'll ever need" 
- Harry asks Flash to take Gwen home so Peter can rest/Gwen asks Flash to 
become friends with Peter 
- Peter, groggy, see them leave and starts feeling inadequate again 
- Sleeps for 12 hours/tries to call May but no answer/note left by May's 
phone 
- Puts costume on and rushes to May's 
- On the way meets Gibbon 
- Leaves as a unknown person watches from shadows/wonders about killing 
Spidey 

-- Happens during night and next day 

Note: Gwen not pregnant and clearly professing her love for Peter in this 
issue 

ASM 111 

- Starts immedately after 110 (explained it's mid-morning) 
- Shadow guy was Kraven 
- Flashback to getting his tale beat in Savage Land/makes deal with Gibbon 
- Spidey finds May isn't home 
- Spidey finds note/says she's left for awhile but will write 
- Goes to see Robbie for help 
- Cut to Kraven and Gibbon. They fight then join up to fight against 
Spidey. 
- Cut to next day, Peter hasn't found May 
- Gwen calls/once she learns of May leaving she feels terrible 
- Spidey goes in search of May again 
- Meets Gibbon/they fight/Gibbon can't kill Spidey/Spidey saves Gibbon after 
falling from roof 

-- Happens in two days 

Note Gwen doesn't appear pregnant but there's never a full frame shot of 
her. First Gerry Conway script. 

ASM 112 

- Starts immedately after 111 
- Gibbon dropped off at hospital 
- Flashback on Peter and May's life 
- Spidey returns home/Harry's there 
- "Hours later", Peter goes to Bugle to see if Robbie has turned up anything 
on May 
- Betty tells Peter how concerned she is/Leaves 
- Meets MJ and Mrs Watson/Watson thinks it's not like May to leave and 
believe that maybe she was forced to write the note 
- Spidey stops a troublemaker 
- Gwen and Flash see Spidey and Gwen still feels bad 
- Spidey meets up with Doc Ock 

-- Happens same day 

Note: Gwen doesn't appear pregnant but there's never a full frame shot of 
her 

ASM 113 

- Starts immedately after 112 
- Both fight 
- Ock pulls mask off Spidey but can't see due to webbing over eyes 
- Spidey escapes (sans mask) but is exhausted due to lack of sleep/has bad 
abdominal pains (cramps) 
- Ock throws mask away/picked up Robbie's son 
- Spidey is still on rooftop and can't move because of cramps (nighttime) 
- Forces himself to go home and passes out in bed 
- Wakes up to Gwen/Doctor arrives and says Peter has an ulcer/Gwen says 
she'll take care of him 
- Peter leaves for the Bugle/Ned Leeds tell him of a lead for May on the 
Lower East Side 
- Spidey picks up a spare mask from a costume shop (sans white eyes) 
- Meets up with Ock and fight/Spidey puts on exo-skeleton 
- Beats Ock but Hammerhead is ther waiting for him 

-- Happens in one day 

Note: Gwen's not pregnant. Also, this issue where the mask with see through 
eye slits (vs. white eyes) originated. 

ASM 114 

- Starts immedately after 113 
- Fights Hammerhead and goons 
- Ock wakes up/Spidey grazed in head by bullet from Hammerhead/Captured 
- Spidey is unconsious for an undetermined amount of time (not long based on 
the questioning and phone call saying where Ock is) 
- Hammerhead origin 
- Ock is tailed to his home/Call to Hammerhead/ Says "old broad" there 
- Cut to Gwen talking to Prof Warren/Says Peter hasn't been to class in 
almost a week (this is actually about right) 
- Flash shows up/Gwen gives him a taste of her mind/defends Peter 
- Spidey escapes and rushes over toOck's place only to get a vase smashed on 
his head by May 

-- Happens in one day based on change from night to day during story 

Note: Gwen doesn't appear pregnant. No full frame shots. 

ASM 115 

- Starts immedately after 114 
- Hamerhead arrives/Ock fights 
- Spidey wakes up/Goes in search of May 
- Cut to Gwen at the Bugle looking for Peter/Ned tells her of the lead he 
gave to Peter 
- Gwen leaves with Robbie to check out reports of gunshots 
- Free for all fight continues at Ock's 
- Spiey beats Ock and May shoots at him/She misses 
- Police arrive/Everyone goes to the paddywagon - Hammerhead escapes 
- Peter changes and hows up 
- May tells Peter that she has accepted Ock's invitation to stay at his 
place 

-- Happens in a very short timeframe (a couple of hours maybe) 

Note: Gwen is clearly not pregnant. Wear tightfitting dress and sweater 
most of the issue. 

ASM #116 

- Occurs immediately after ASM 115 based on the opening paragraph. 
- Spidey is wondering about a new political runner (Raleigh) 
- Smasher shows up/Fights Spidey 
- Spider-Man beats him and goes to the Bugle to get his old mask back (the 
one with white eyes) 
- Peter meets up with MJ and Harry. MJ is a Raleigh rooter. Asks Peter and 
Gwen to come to political dinner. He wonders whether she'll go based on all 
the time she been hanging around with Flash. 
- Peter goes back to Bugle and tries to sell pictures of Hammerhead to JJJ. 
He wants none of it but wants pictures of Raleigh. 
- Peter goes to Gwen's 
- Gwen is still agonizing over her fight with May and her decision to stay 
at Ock's. Peter asks about her and Flash. She tells him it's nothing and 
then hugs him 
- Both go to the political dinner 
- Peter calls JJJ "Mr Charisma 1972. 
- Peter see that the roof is getting ready to cave in, kills the lights, and 
rushes o the ceiling to stop. 

-- Happens from afternoon to night of same day. 

Note: Gwen's not pregnant. Ther are many rewrites and new art placing the 
story in continuity with #115. The mask with eyeholes is used until near 
halfway through the story. New art at Bugle of Peter getting the mask and 
numerous script changes referring to the current situation in ASM. 

ASM 117 

- Starts immedately after 116 
- Peter holds the ceiling long enough for people to get out of the way. 
- Peter meets up with Gwen and MJ accompanies them home 
- Cut to Disruptor raving while powering up the Smasher 
- Norman visits JJJ's townhouse and throws his support behind Raleigh 
- Spidey has left Gwen and is on the trail of the Smasher (next day) 
- Stops some hoods trying to steal fundraising money 
- Spidey mentions his ulcer and goes to call May at Ock's place 
- May tells Peter she worries about him 
- Harry grabs Peter and takes him to a Raleigh rally. 
- Gwen and MJ have been waiting for them. 
- MJ tries to give Peter a chili-dog but is scolded by Gwen to rmember his 
ulcer/Harry agrees 
- Spidey Sense goes off and Disruptor appears looking for Raleigh 
- Disruptor escapes without Raleigh 
- Disruptor goes back to HQs and reenergizes the Smasher to find Robbie 
Robertson - he's against Raleigh 

-- Happens over two days 

Note: Gwen is clearly not pregnant. Again the issue is ripe with current 
continuity clues. 

ASM 118 

- Starts same day as 117 but at night 
- Smasher finds Robbie 
- Spidey arrives and fights Smasher 
- Speidey says it's two days since his first fight (this is correct) 
- Spidey leaves and sees Gwen, Harry and MJ electioneering 
- Spidey changes to civilian clothes and meets up with them 
- Harry wonders where his roommates been while Gwen amd Peter liplock 
- Smasher shows up/Peter guesses he can sense he's Spider-Man 
- Smasher then sets his eyes on Raleigh 
- Peter leaves the group and changes into Spidey/follows Smasher to 
Disruptor HQs 
- Fights, Disruptor tries to boost the Smasher power/Smasher whacks 
Disruptor 
- Smasher eventually overloads/Disruptor unmasked as Raleigh 
- End as Spidey swings towards dawn 

-- All happens during the night. 

Note: Gwen is clearly not pregnant. 

ASM 119 

- Morning. 
- Spidey goes to Ock's to visit May 
- Meets May/She mentions the Raleigh election 
- Leaves and goes home "first time back in days" because of the 
Raleigh/Smasher storyline (this makes sense as Harry was asking where Peter 
was in the last issue) 
- Peter reads telegram delivered to May at old address/states a man in 
montreal needs to contact May 
- Peter walks out of Apt to see Harry falling into his arms and Norman 
telling Paker to release him 
- Norman takes Harry/Peter wonders whether Norman is remembering his GG 
persona and his identity 
- Peter see that the Hulk's gone wild in Canada and approaches JJJ to get a 
ticket to take pics/see what the man in Montreal wants 
- Peter arrives Montreal 
- Watches a press conference with Thunderbolt Ross 
- Pter hitches a ride with the Army 
- Hulk attacks convoy 
- Changes into Spidey and the free-for-all's on. 
- Hulk destroys dam and both go underwater 

-- Happens over maybe two days 

Note: Gwen doesn't appear in issue. 

ASM 120 

- Starts immedately after 119 
- Gwen contacts Peter to tell him to get home quick because Harry's in bad 
shape 
- Fight continues later 
- Peter returns home that night 

-- Happens over a day 

Note: Gwen is clearly not pregnant. 

Whew.... 

Well there you go. Gwen can be accounted for in all the issues except one 
and isn't pregnant, or even gained weight in any of them. There also isn't 
a gap where we don't see her. So how can Sins Past work based on this 
timeline? It can't, unless major retconning is done... 

Jim
_________________
www.AWE4ONE.com - For more comic rants...

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Actually, I was just thinking that the birth might be placed just prior to ASM 100. There is a big gap between ASM 99 (January) and 100 (summer) that would allow Gwen to disappear for a good part of the pregnancy and have her kids. However, that would mean that the scene with M.J. discovering the truth would need to occur just prior to ASM 100; does that make sense from the standpoint of the Osborns' chronologies? It would also mean that Gwen would conceive the kids circa ASM 90-93; does that make sense? And it's funny how a lengthy leave by Gwen was never referenced in any issue of ASM from 100 on.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 07:55 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The flashback scenes occur in...what is it?...120, or 121? Gwen presumably wrote the letter to Peter while he was in Canada. 

But, look, it's not just a calendar placement problem that's causing the stir here. Leaving aside Gwen's abnormal behavior (which I'll come back to, after the arc finishes), if you've read the stories from that time period, let's say from 80-120, you know there's no way Peter's going to let Gwen disappear for seven months. He's flying to France, and he's not giving up, until he finds her. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 09:10 am    
By awe4one

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And it's funny how a lengthy leave by Gwen was never referenced in any issue of ASM from 100 on. 
<<<

That's because it didn't happen and the stories weren't structured to have this happen. JMS apparently thought of the pregnancy first and then where to fit it later. Only problem is...there's nowhere to fit it. 

I'm wondering if JMS knew at all what a prominent character Gwen was in those Spider-Man comics. She wasn't a mere secondary character that shows up every so often. She was a major part of the storyline at the time and her whereabouts were well documented. 

And that's one of the problems now...I don't think they were banking on, or didn't care, that the timelines didn't work. 

Jim
_________________
www.AWE4ONE.com - For more comic rants...

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 11:44 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Gwen wouldn't have had to hide in France for the full seven months -- even with accelerated growth, she may not have started showing until the third month. She would only have had to hide in France for 3-4 months -- does that help make it more believable that Peter wouldn't chase after her? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 12:23 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
she may not have started showing until the third month. 
<<<


Yeah, I'm aware that she wouldn't start showing at the moment of conception. I'm not referring to the seven-month gestation period. There are three factors to consider. 

Starting with: 
1. Twins 
2. Accelerated growth rate 

And ending with: 
3. The length of time it would likely take for Gwen to return to her pre-pregnancy figure, after giving birth to full-term twins, so as to not raise suspicions from Peter. 


watching: both sides...but only seeing the right one.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 04:52 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
And ending with: 
3. The length of time it would likely take for Gwen to return to her pre-pregnancy figure, after giving birth to full-term twins, so as to not raise suspicions from Peter. 
<<<


Well, unless Peter saw some substanial skin on Gwen -- say, in a bikini -- it wouldn't be THAT hard to hide. What she's wearing in ASM 93 would cover her post-pregnancy quite well in fact.

			*	*	*

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I'm reluctant to say that's a flashback. It's more like a dream sequence, with Peter picturing the nightmare event, in his mind.  
<<<


Hope springs eternal, eh, Russ?  

Anyway, if for no sake other than chronology's, let's hope this whole thing is some big cheat. But if it is, explaining M.J.'s "memory" will be a challenge... 

For the sake of my sanity, I'm sitting this out until Sins Past wraps up. Too many other wrinkles to iron...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 05:20 pm    
By Shmi

Spoilers for ASM 513. 

S 

P 

O 

I 

L 

E 

R 

S 

P 

A 

C 

E 

Peter suggest that the twins' rate of aging is increasing. That suggest less than the 12-13 years the constant 9/7 would suggest. However, without a constant rate of aging, we aren't giving any hint how long it's actually been. 

It is just Peter's theory. It hasn't been confirmed. He could be wrong.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 08:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

He could be right, too, but that doesn't mean the twins' rate of aging has been progressively increasing throughout their lives. For all we know, their aging could have been wildly erratic -- rapid at times, normal other times, slow at others. It could be that their in utero aging was quick and their current aging even quicker, but at other stages of their lives the aging was not quick at all. Of course I say all this without benefit of having read ASM 513 yet.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 07:51 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Hey, here's a really neat article which not only is a great analysis of the characters of Gwen and Norman Osborn, but it also give a detailed continuity explination as to when Gwen "did the deed" with Norman, and when she had kids! This guy might have figured this out for us! WARNING: The article is lengthy. VERY lengthy. But a worthy read. 


http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/GreenwithEvil/DeFloweringGwen.html
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 9

Posted: 23 Sep 2004 07:07 pm    Post subject: UX 400-407 Question
By Dhall

Here's a question for the X-experts among us... 

Paul's calendar has UX 400-407 occuring sometime after X 126. 

Wolverine is in UX 400, UX '01, and UX 401 
Beast is in UX '01 

Phoenix IV is in UX 407 

407 is clearly post-X 126, no doubt about that, but in UX 407, 
Angel and Jean have a telepathic chat 
Angel "Jean? Everything okay there?" 
Jean "Not Exactly...I'll explain later, Warren..." 

Well if 400, '01, and 401 were after X 126, wouldn't the Uncanny team ALREADY know what was the matter at the mansion, y'know perhaps from Wolverine or Beast??? 

Or perhaps from when they visited the institute in UX 400..... 

(Now I have no problem with putting 402-407 as post X-126....) 

Would it not make more sense for 400, '01, and 401 
to occur between X 117 and 118, after Jean kisses him in 117, and before he goes off to seek solitutde in the woods of Wyoming in 118? 


Dave H

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 12:10 pm    
By jannepie

Uhmm... No? 

I got the feeling that X 118 was the day after 117 even though it wasn't mentioned. 

Could Jean have been talking about something else? I would guess lots of students would have been nervous after the Shi'ar attack. It was mentioned somewhere in UX 410-413 that a lot of student left because of the attack.

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 02:29 pm    
By Dhall

Um, as you say, no it wasn't mentioned. 

There's enough time for Logan to take his motorcyle from NY to Wyoming. 
And that's the least amt. of time that could pass between X 117 and 118. There could be several more days, or even a week easily. 

The alternative would be to move up UX 400, Ann '01 and 401, to between X '01 and X 117. I would be perfectly fine with that too. 

Come to think about it, UX 400 and UX '01 have to be before X 117, since Beast is in UX '01..... I'll make some changes to my issue analysis post. 

Dave H

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 07:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
407 is clearly post-X 126, no doubt about that, but in UX 407, 
Angel and Jean have a telepathic chat 
Angel "Jean? Everything okay there?" 
Jean "Not Exactly...I'll explain later, Warren..." 

Well if 400, '01, and 401 were after X 126, wouldn't the Uncanny team ALREADY know what was the matter at the mansion, y'know perhaps from Wolverine or Beast???  
<<<


I have UX 407 here in front of me, open to the page featuring the conversation between Warren and Jean. To what do you presume Jean is referring in that conversation with Warren? I'm not sure how this conversation suggests placement of UX 401 before X 126. I don't quite follow you here. Can you elaborate?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 09:44 pm    
By Dhall

It implies that Warren has not had any contact with Jean, or with the X-Men (other than the Uncanny Team) since BEFORE the thing that isn't okay happened at the mansion. 

Since, I think that we both agree (correct me if I'm wrong) that UX 407 comes shortly after (or some time soon after) X 126, then unless she is refering to 
something that happend in The Order, then she is most likely refering to the events of X 121-126. If this is the first chance she has gotten to look for Kurt, she's been busy..... 

Now, If as the calendar suggests, UX 400, UX '01, and UX 401 occur AFTER X 126, then Warren should ALREADY know (from Beast or Wolverine who were there) what has been wrong at the mansion in the recent past. 

Also, Warren and the rest of the Uncanny team are AT the mansion in UX 400, so again they should already know what is going on there. 


That is why I am suggesting a placement of UX 400, and UX '01 before X 117. UX 401 (with Wolverine) could either go there as well, or betwen X 117 and 118. If it came after X 126, then Wolverine would have told someone on the team that something had happened. 

I'm putting UX 401 along with the other two issues for now, but like I said it could go between X 117 and 118..... 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 01:40 am    
By jannepie

Why couldnt UX 400, 01 and 401 take place between X 121 and X 122? Theres still a lot of trouble coming after that and I think theres a possible gap there. This should make everyone happy, no?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2004 08:57 am    
By Dhall

I seriously doubt that right after Jean drops the bombshell about Cassandra Nova being Xavier's twin, that Angel & co. (with Wolverine) are going to take off after the CHurch of HUmanity,and teh Vanisher's drug trade, instead of helping the others find a way to fight Cassandra. 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 10:02 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

That's not much of a chronological rationale, though. Tense situations occur in all comic books, all the time -- and the revelation that Prof. X is trapped in someone else's body isn't much of a "we must do something about this right now" scenario, so much as a "there's nothing we can do about this" situation. At this point, they hadn't yet doped out that Cassie was *coming back* to get them. 

Angel Salvadore, who arrived at the mansion in X #120, mentions in X #123 that Wolvie keeps leaving the mansion on mysterious missions, and returning -- so we know that he HAS gone off at least twice after X #121. For what it's worth, my notes from that period have UX #399-400 and Annual #1 occuring between X #121-122 -- *after* the Beast's coma -- and UX #401 occuring between X #122-123. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 10:18 am    
By Dhall

I'm not disputing that is technically possible.... I just don't see why it is a better placement than between X 116 and X 117. After all, Angel Salvatore's comments could refer to anything, say Wolverine/Hulk or a Wolverine issue that we haven't placed yet, they don't necessarily have to refer to UX issues. 
Please tell me why this placement is superior to the one I have,(or why the one I have wouldn't work) and I would be happy to change my listings..... 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 10:33 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It's not "superior" -- it's just an alternate suggestion. Both have equal merit -- yours isn't "superior" to mine, either. 

I personally like mine better because it more closely follows the *publication* order of the books -- but there are those that don't care about such things. 

Your mileage may vary. What does an analysis of the *temporal and calendar* references in both books give us? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 10:39 am    
By Dhall

Sorry, I didn't mean that mine was "superior" to yours, just that I'd already posted it, and I didn't feel like changing the listings, without a good reason, those things are a pain to type twice. Yes, they are both equally as good. 

If we're going to go by publication order, then yours goes. I just don't see much internal evidence to choose either one over the other at this point. 


Dave H

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 12:15 pm    
By Dhall

Ok, I've just found a reference in X 117, which goes against my position.... 

Jean goes up to talk to Logan in the woods. 

Logan " I got half-burned to death and then the flesh was stripped off my arm-All in one day." (X 116) 
"Kinda maxed out my healing factor..." 

Jean: "That's why you've been up here for four days?" 
(So four days have passed since X 116, and Logan has been sitting in the woods for all of them, and NOT available for other stories) 

Logan also points out the big star: "Looks like a spaceship" 
Jean" Yeah, Well that's beacuse it is a spaceship. After coming out on global TV, the Professoe has decided to take a Surprise vacation with Empress Lilandra..." 

So anyway, now we have a reason to go with your placement over mine. 


Quote: 
For what it's worth, my notes from that period have UX #399-400 and Annual #1 occuring between X #121-122 -- *after* the Beast's coma -- and UX #401 occuring between X #122-123.  



Note though, Logan's MCP listing has him appearing in a lot of things between X 116 and 117. that we're going to have to move: 

Is it okay if we move UX 395-398, XFOR 116-120, and X '01 to BEFORE X 114-116? and what about X '01? 



UX 394 
X 114 
X 115 
X 116 
UX 395 
UX 396 
UX 397 
UX 398 
CYCLOPS 1 
XFOR 116 
X '01 
XFOR 120 
X 117

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2004 02:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Logan " I got half-burned to death and then the flesh was stripped off my arm-All in one day." (X 116) 
"Kinda maxed out my healing factor..." 

Jean: "That's why you've been up here for four days?" 
(So four days have passed since X 116, and Logan has been sitting in the woods for all of them, and NOT available for other stories)  


Another interpretation is that Logan's healing factor was taxed to the max in X 116 and that he went on other missions since without taking the four days required to really get the healing factor fully restored. After a period of denial that things weren't quite up to snuff, Logan bit the bullet and retreated into the woods, where we find him in X 117.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 02:37 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Either way, X '01 must occur after X 116. 

-Sean

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 03:15 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

X-Force #116-120, I *do* have placed before X #114. 

UX #396 references the events of X #116 -- so no, it can't be moved back before X #114. 

And the only possible place to put X '01 is between X #116-117 -- so even going just by Morrison's stories, Wolvie went on at least *one* mission between X #116-117. 

Given that, I feel comfortable also placing UX #395-398 between X #116-117 -- but I'd like to keep as few Wolvie appearances as possible in there, because of the "maxed out healing factor" comment. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 03:32 pm    
By Dhall

ok, so we can agree to place ONLY the issues that directly reference 116/ have to come in between 116 and 117 in Logan's chronology, move X-Force 116-120 back before X 114, and call everythuing good. 

In that case, I'm inclined to go with Jeph's suggestions on 399-401 (move forward from where I have them.) 

If everyone is ok with that, then I'll work up revised listings.... 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 03:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Given that, I feel comfortable also placing UX #395-398 between X #116-117 -- but I'd like to keep as few Wolvie appearances as possible in there, because of the "maxed out healing factor" comment.  
<<<


I can see minimizing the number of missions Logan has between X 116 and 117, but IIRC, the appearances in CYCLOPS 1 and XFOR 116 and 120 are just brief cameos that we could keep in that gap.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 03:54 pm    
By Dhall

The cyclops one, I've already proposed moving, since it appears to have the real Xavier, so it could not happen between X 116 and 126, where he's been replaced by Cassandra Nova. I would like to move the X-Force's back too, since it seems like Logan is pretty much out on vacation in California, rather than there specifically for business, BUT the main reason to do it would be to minmize the # of appearances that he makes between 116 and 117, to the minimum possible. I also think it's a little awkward having those apps on either side of X '01..... 

Jeph, could you shed some more llight on why you have XFor 116-120 before X 114? 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 04:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The cyclops one, I've already proposed moving, since it appears to have the real Xavier, so it could not happen between X 116 and 126, where he's been replaced by Cassandra Nova.  
<<<


Yes, that's correct, and I do have CYCLOPS 1-4 occurring before X 114 in the Calendar. 

I do have XFOR 116 and 120 occurring before X 114 as well. 

(Looks like a case in which the calendar and the MCP listings, constructed simultaneously by different folks, came up with different chronologies.)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 04:11 pm    
By Dhall

Ok, let's move those X-Force's! 

I'm going to post new listings on my issue analysis thread. Only the Beast and Wolverine's listings need to be changed, as a result of our discussion. 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 05:00 pm    
By Dhall

oh, I just noticed that the calendar has UX 399 and 400, UX '01, 401-407 after X 126, which I don't think is correct.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2004 06:59 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Okay, getting back to that part of this thread... 

Quote: 
>>>
Now, If as the calendar suggests, UX 400, UX '01, and UX 401 occur AFTER X 126, then Warren should ALREADY know (from Beast or Wolverine who were there) what has been wrong at the mansion in the recent past.  
<<<


We don't really know why Jean has her hands full at the Institute in UX 407. It could be some unpublished event that just happened. So I'm still not quite following how Jean's statement in UX 407 places UX 400-401 and UX '01 before X 126.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 07:16 pm    
By Dhall

Yeah, but making up unpublished events is kind of a reach, when there's something published that the statement could apply to. 
It seems very unecessary to do so in this case. 


Dave H

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 08:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I found it necessary, as X 123 definitely does tie in to XX 9. If I'm interpreting correctly, XX 5-9 occur in quick succession, and XX 5 occurs "days" after the destruction of Genosha in X 115. Thus X 115-126 should occur during a rather short span of time. I've grouped X 115-126 into a two-week-or-so period in May and pushed those UX issues to a point after this run of X.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 09:40 pm    
By Dhall

Except that, the report by Trish Tilby in XX 5 which referes to the Genosha attack as being "days ago." is not a live report. It is on tape, as part of Sage's explanation of the diaries on Sage's display, a display that is the "product of weeks of work." "Charles' (really Cassandra's) coming out is also part of this display. The display is designed to scan the airwaves for any item relating to the X-Men...... 

Why do I believe that it's a recorded image? The word "TV" imposed over the images, and then NOT on the screen later (when they are watching recent images of Genosha) That AND the fact that they are watching only images relevant to Sage's presentation, makes me believe these are recorded..... 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2004 09:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hey, Dave. I haven't had the time to sit down and sort through a response yet, and I'll be away for several days. If you don't hear from me in a week or so, give me a nudge. I'd be surprised if Jeph would not have re-entered the discussion by then...
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2004 09:30 pm    
By Dhall

No Problem, 
I'll be gone for a few days next week as well. I'm sure there will be lots of new posts to read when we get back.... 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Sep 2004 08:17 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hmm. I'll be in the Bahamas all next week. 

Looks like a popular week ... anyone ELSE not going to be here? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 01:51 am    
By jannepie

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Yeah, but making up unpublished events is kind of a reach, when there's something published that the statement could apply to. 
It seems very unecessary to do so in this case.  
<<<


I found it necessary, as X 123 definitely does tie in to XX 9. If I'm interpreting correctly, XX 5-9 occur in quick succession, and XX 5 occurs "days" after the destruction of Genosha in X 115. Thus X 115-126 should occur during a rather short span of time. I've grouped X 115-126 into a two-week-or-so period in May and pushed those UX issues to a point after this run of X. 
<<<


There must be a longer gap between the destruction of Genosha and XX5. If I remember it correctly, XX 5-9 and X 123-126 take place during the same two days (XX 5-9 takes two days, X 123-126 all in the second day). 

But there's a lot longer gap between X 116 and 117 than just four days. In New X-Men Annual 2001, which takes place between those two issues, (if I remember it correctly again) the X-Corporation had already been open for two weeks and that only happened after X 116. 

So there's a chance to put UX 399, 400, '01, 401 and X 117-122 more or so in an order in which they came out.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 08:44 am    
By Dhall

There is a gap of at least four days between X 116 and 117, where Wolverine is not available for other apps. Of course there has to be a longer gap between these two for X '01. (This has to happen between X 116, and the "four days" reference, which are prior to X 117.) 


For the most part I see UX 401-407 occuring at the same time as X 117 to X 123. Jeph believes that UX 399-407 occur in this period, and that seems reasonable to me. Now we know that XX 5-9 have to occur at the same time, as they are linked through Jean's app. in XX 9, which occurs betwen X 122 and 123. 

I take Sage's reference to having worked on her display for "weeks" as a true representation of the time between XX 4 and XX 5. Of cours it doesn't state how many weeks, and I do believe that the part of her display in XX 5, which includes tv images is recorded, and not live. 



Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 07:33 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Janniepie, you cite the founding and opening of X-Corp between X #116 and X '01 as evidence that there must be a large gap of time between issues. However, in terms of plot, that doesn't quite work. 

If X-Corp was conceived, created and opened after X #116 -- that means that Cassandra Nova created X-Corp, as she had replaced Prof. X at the time. Creating a benevolent mutant organization seems very out-of-character for her. 

I tend to think that Domino's line in X '01 about Prof. X "coming out as the mutant Ghandi and founding the X-Corporation" isn't an accurate indicator of the order of events. I think that X-Corp was conceived and begun as part of the Professor's massive upgrade of the X-Men between X #113 and UX #394 -- and it just wasn't mentioned on-panel until X '01. 

Therefore, X-Corp could conceivably have been open for two weeks already, and X '01 could still occur the day after X #116. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2004 09:19 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Hey, Dave. I haven't had the time to sit down and sort through a response yet, and I'll be away for several days. If you don't hear from me in a week or so, give me a nudge. 
<<<


I wrote that a month ago and I'm just now tackling this. It's turning out to be a challenge, given the tight timing of X-adventures and crossover events (like the Kang War and the Order) during this time. And in examining this, I discovered that I messed up Beast's chronology around the time he became cat-like. 

Suffice it to say, I'm working on it. Plotting things on a calendar is useful, in that I can see pretty easily how a move here and a shift there in a character's chronology has a ripple effect that otherwise may be hard to see. More later...
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2004 09:29 am    
By Dhall

nudge. heh. 

Paul, just to reiterate, I am convinced that the stories in UX, X, and XX at this period are meant to be happening at the same time. These three threads come together nicely after X 126, in UX 407 and XX 18, both of which I believe occur shortly after X 126. The only character crossovers in this period would of course be Logan, which with some suggestions from Jeph I have placed as such: 

X '01 
X 117 
* X 118 
* X 119 
* X 120 
*X 121 
*UX 400 
*UX 01 
*X 122 
*UX 401 
PUN6 16 
PUN6 17 
*X 123 
*X 124 
*X 125 
*X 126 
*BHOOD 8 

and Phoenix whom I have placed: 
*X 120 
*X 121 
*X 122 
XX 9 
*X 123 
*X 124 
*X 125 
*X 126 
*UX 407 
XX 18 
*X 127 
XX 19 
*X 128 

And Beast: 
X '01 
XX:SL 1 
XX:SL 2 
XX:SL 3 
XX:SL 4 
X 117 
* X 118 
* X 119 
* X 120 
*UX 01 
*X 122 
*X 123 
*X 124 
*X 125 
*X 126 
XX 18 
XX 19 
*X 131 

If I've forgotten anyone off the top of my head here, let me know and I can post what I have listed. 

Dave H.

Last edited by Dhall on 31 Oct 2004 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2004 11:37 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The "XX's" shouldn't be starred. 


watching: wolf blitzer

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2004 12:32 pm    
By Dhall

That's right, they're in the MCP now. I'll edit my post. 

Dave H.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2004 05:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Here's my stab at reorganizing these X-stories to allow for the concurrent nature of X, UX, and XX and deal with my snafu with the Beast's chronology. If this looks okay, I'll need to edit some of the notes in the calendar entries, as some theories and suppositions would need to be changed. 

3/16  XX 2-FB, XX 3-FB (22) 
3/29  SM:SC 1 (12-17) 
4/1  SM:SC 1 (52-56) 
4/2  XX 1, XX 2, XX 3 (1-8) 
4/3  XX 3 (11-14, 18-21, 23-24), XX 4 
4/4  CA3 50/6 (7-8) 
4/6  XU 36/3 (1-2p2) 
4/9  Kang War begins 
4/13  XU 36/3 (2p3-7p3) 
4/27  Kang War ends 
4/28  CYC 1 (1-5) 
4/29  CYC 1 (6-22), CYC 2 
4/30  CYC 3 (1-20) 
5/1  CYC 3 (21-22) 
5/2  CYC 4 (1-21) 
5/3  XU 36/3 (7p4-12), CYC 4 (22-23), ICE 1, ICE 2 
5/4  ICE 3, ICE 4 (1-18), X 114, X 115 
5/5  ICE 4 (19-21), X 116 
5/7  XX 5-FB 
5/8  X 01 (1-29), X 139-FB (15p4-15p5), X 139-FB (17p1-17p3) 
5/9  X 01 (30-42) 
5/10  UX 395 
5/11  UX 396 (1-6) 
5/12  UX 396 (7-22), UX 397 (1-6) 
5/13  UX 397 (7-22), UX 398 (1-19) 
5/14  UX 398 (20-22) 
5/15  XX:SL 1, XX:SL 2 
5/16  XX:SL 3, XX:SL 4 
5/18  X 117, X 118 (1-3) 
5/19  X 118 (6-15) 
5/20  X 118 (16-23), X 121 
5/21  UX 399 
5/22  UX 400 
5/23  UX 01, XX 5 (1-6) 
5/24  X 122, XX 5 (7-23) 
5/25  UX 401, XX 6, XX 7, XX 8 
5/26  XX9, UX 402, UX403, UX 404, UX 405, UX 406 (1-21), X 123, X 124, X 125, X 126 
5/27  UX 407 (1-15), BHOOD 6 (1-15) 
5/28  UX 407 (16-23), BHOOD 6 (16-22), C2 105 (1-21) 
5/29  ORDER 5, ORDER 6, BHOOD 7, C2 105 (22) 
5/30  XX 01, BHOOD 8 
5/31  BH 9, PUN6 16, PUN6 17 

Note that weve moved W2 170-176 back to before this period to accommodate the anniversary of Marikos death in W2 175/2, so these solo Wolverine stories wont interfere with an already tight schedule.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Nov 2004 11:22 pm    
By Dhall

I have a lot of things in my lists that are different than yours. (Though I'm not trying to put calendar dates to my list, I should point out.) 

For example: UX 394. I have this right before X 114. Do you have it where you do, to match up with the anniversary of UX 1? 

I have X '01 after UX 398.... 

Sometimes my list is similar, sometimes it's different... 

I guess what I'm saying is that without knowing the specific rationale for each placement, it's kind of hard for me to agree or disagree with you. 

Dave H.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Nov 2004 07:40 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dhall wrote: 
without knowing the specific rationale for each placement, it's kind of hard for me to agree or disagree with you. 

Yah. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Nov 2004 10:24 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
For example: UX 394. I have this right before X 114. Do you have it where you do, to match up with the anniversary of UX 1?  
<<<

Why would I? Were we to believe that Warp Savant was born on the day Magneto attacked Cape Citadel in UX 1? I found no reference to that direct connection, and the fact that Warp turned "eighteen" in UX 394 would lead me to believe that Marvel (with their ten-year-rule, I say facetiously) didn't intend this to be so. 


Quote: 
>>>
I guess what I'm saying is that without knowing the specific rationale for each placement, it's kind of hard for me to agree or disagree with you.  
<<<


Sigh. Don't forget, guys, I'm trying to accommodate a rationale that was posted earlier in this thread...you know, the one about the concurrence of certain issues of UX, XX, and X? Do you really need me to rehash all that in the body of my list? Moving issues of UX up on the calendar to coincide with XX and X then forced me to deal with stories that I had put on the calendar just before X 114, and then I butted up against the Kang War. The early stuff in the list puts the Beast's chronology in a proper order so he's not changing in and out of his cat-like state. 

For more details on the individual issues, please see the posted calendar. As I mentioned, some of the notes will change but I don't want to do that editing if this new sequence has problems. Does it have problems, aside from just not matching your sequences? 

If you guys really would like a complete, edited calendar approach to all this, I won't be able to get that together for a few days or so.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2004 08:26 am    
By Dhall

The sequence (for the main issues X, UX, XX) from UX 395 through UX 407 looks good to me. It agrees with my list, with the exception of having X '01 in a different place, and having some of the various crossovers in a different order. 

A couple of things that stand out, are that X 119 and 120 are not on your list. (I assume you mean for them to be before X 121.) 

Like I said, I have UX 394 in a much later spot. 

And also, shouldn't Deadpool 60 and 61 come before W 173-176? 

Dave H.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2004 09:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
A couple of things that stand out, are that X 119 and 120 are not on your list. (I assume you mean for them to be before X 121.)  
<<<

Yes. I must have deleted those entries by mistake. 


Quote: 
>>>
And also, shouldn't Deadpool 60 and 61 come before W 173-176? 
<<< 

So true, so true. Pushing back W2 173-176 (for the sake of that Mariko death anniversary in W2 175/2 -- see other thread) means we'd have to push back DPOOL3 56-64 as well, because DPOOL3 61 features Sabretooths last appearance with Weapon X before he defects in W2 170. And DPOOL3 56 must occur after WX:Z 1 (10) because of Copycat's chronology. How about this admittedly knee-jerk adjustment? 

1/24 -- W2 162, W2 163, W2 164, W2 165, W2 166 
1/27 -- WX:Z 1 (10) 
1/28 -- W2 167-FB, DPOOL3 56 
1/29 -- W2 167 (1-9p2), DPOOL3 57, DPOOL3 58, DPOOL3 59 
1/30 -- W2 167 (9p3-22), W2 168, W2 169, DPOOL3 60 (1-22p1) 
2/2 -- DPOOL3 60 (22p2-22p5) 
2/4 -- DPOOL3 61 
2/5 -- X 111, UX 392, X 112, UX 393, X 113 (1-22) 
2/6 -- X 113 (23), W 01 (1-3) 
2/7 -- W 01 (4-7) 
2/8 -- W 01 (8-17) 
2/9 -- W 01 (18-24) 
2/11 -- [BTS -- Logans call from Gus, as related in W 01/2] 
2/12 -- W 01 (25-27) 
2/13 -- W 01/2-FB (7p4-7p5) 
2/14 -- [BTS -- Logan's call from Gus sister, as related in W 01/2] 
2/15 -- W 01/2 (3-13p1) 
2/16 -- W 01/2 (13p2-13p3) 
2/17 -- W2 170 (1-5) 
2/18 -- W2 170 (6-22), W2 171, W2 172, W2 173-FB (8-10) 
2/19 -- W2 173, W2 173/2 
2/20 -- W2 174 (1-7) 
2/21 -- W2 174 (8-22), W2 175, W2 175/2 (1-7) 
2/22 -- W2 175/2 (8), W2 176 


Quote: 
>>>
Like I said, I have UX 394 in a much later spot.  
<<<

Right before X 114, right? Any special reason, like a reference in X 114 to UX 394 having just occurred or some such? Oh, and I need to divide UX 394 into two entries -- (1-2) and (3-23) -- on two consecutive days.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2004 12:35 am    
By Dhall

Notes on UX 394: 
Warp Savants eighteenth birthday. He looks through news archives and finds an article about Magnetos attack on Cape Citadel. Does this provide evidence of a matched date with UX 1? No it does not. There is no indication in the story that the newspaper article directly relates to Warps birthday. It is possible to assume that this occurs on the same day of the year (though not eighteen years ago, surely) as UX 1, but this would be merely an assumption on our part, and not explicitly stated in the story. 

All characters appear in their Morrison-era outfits (so this is after X 113.) The schools existence is not known to the general public, so this is before X 114-116. 
This issue provides us with the first evidence of the trouble in Scott and Jeans marriage. 
Scott is completely cold to Jean, and Wolverine clearly picks up on this. There are no other reliable indications in this issue for placement . It must go either before, during, or after the issues that occur in this period such as W2 01-W2 176, Cyclops, Iceman, etc. 

The X-Men in this issue are: Cyclops, Phoenix IV, Wolverine, and Archangel. (Beast is mentioned as having made some improvements in Cerebro prior to this issue.) 

Notes on X 114: Beast has finished Cerebra, Cerebros replacement. Jean comments on Hanks new look. (While its not the earliest appearance of the cat-Beast, Hanks appearance must still be new enough that the change is comment-worthy.) 
A stray reference is made to the Sentinels being left over from the big mutant witchunts a few months back. New school term starts Monday. Logan again makes reference to the Scott/Jean troubled marriage subplot (which Scott denies.) Beast also raises the issue. 

The X-Men consist of: Wolverine, Phoenix IV, Cyclops, Xavier, Beast 

Notes on X 115: Not a lot of chronology references. 
X-Men consist of: Wolverine, Cyclops, Xavier, Phoenix IV, Beast 
Notable appearances: Emma Frost (teaching class in Genosha, putting this issue after Gen X 75) Magneto (still in a wheelchair after the Eve of Destruction arc.) He appears next narrating the recording in X 132-FB. 

Notes on X 116: 
Jean has a Doop keychain, suggesting that this issue occurs sometime after X-Force 116-120. Jean and Scott have barely touched each other for five months. This is related to the changes in Scott since En Sabah Nur was in his head. Thus it has been five months since the Search for Cyclops miniseries. 
Xavier (really Cassandra Nova) outs the school, and the X-Men on TV. 
X-Men consist of: Cyclops, Phoenix IV, Beast, Wolverine, Xavier, Emma Frost 

Conclusions: We have some latitude for placing various issues, before UX 394, as well as between UX 394 and X 114, however in UX 394, Beast has already started tinkering with Cerebro. In X 114, he unveils Cerebra. It would make sense to try to limit any appearances he makes between these issues to ones in the vicinity of the mansion, as he must be working on Cerebra for some period of time, starting before UX 394, and continuing up until X 114. (These would include, CYCLOPS 1, ICE2 1, W2 174-FB, & W2 173-BTS, which can come either before UX 394, or between UX 394 and X 114) Presumably this period would be after the Beasts appearance in XX 1-3. 

In short, there is a gap of several months between X 113 and 114. Re-checking my list, I currently have UX 394 pretty close to where Paul has it (before XFOR 116,120, etc.) I had it after Cyclops 1-4, but it appears that Cyclops could come either before UX 394, or between UX 394, and X 114. 

I do question the placement of XX 1-4 on Pauls proposed calendar revision, solely because it seems really odd for the Beast to travel back and forth so much. 

It reads: Wolverine 174 Hank at mansion in Cat-Beast form 
UX 394 Hank at mansion, though not shown, working on Cerebro. 
XX 1-3 Hank with X-Treme team 
Cyc 1, Hank back at mansion 
Ice2 1 at mansion 
X 114: Hank unveils Cerebra 

It makes more sense to me, if XX 1-4 could come before W 173-BTS, 174-FB for Hanks sake. This would allow Hank to be at the mansion for an extended period (after his adventures with the X-Treme Team) to construct Cerebra. 

Dave H.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2004 08:33 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Given that Hank is still in ape form in XX #1-3 -- portions of this order are clearly wrong already. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2004 09:22 am    
By Dhall

Good point, XX 1-3 has to come before any cat-Beast appearances.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2004 04:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Good point, XX 1-3 has to come before any cat-Beast appearances. 
<<<

Ah, NOW we've hit the nail on the head. Moving the date of W2 175/2 back to late February (for the sake of matching it up to the pre-Mardi Gras death of Mariko) means that Hank needs to be cat-like (in W2 174) that much earlier. This conflicts with that whole Kang War chronology we hammered out, since the Beast shows up ape-like at Cap's funeral in CA4 50/6, which is placed on April 4. 

Okay, dumb question here...is it established that W2 175/2 occurs the same night as W2 175, or can we shove just W2 175/2 back?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2004 07:48 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Sorry -- it occurs while Wolvie is clinically dead, between W2 #175-176. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2004 08:02 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Jean has a Doop keychain, suggesting that this issue occurs sometime after X-Force 116-120. 
<<<

Not really. X-Force III are already firmly established media personalities as of their first appearance, and there's very little indication of how long they've been around, or (more specifically) how long Doop has been marketable. The best indication is that another X-Force group trademarked the name first, but that just means that they were formed, or at least named "X-Force", sometime after XFOR 1 (or, if you count the "Uncanny X-Force", sometime after C&D3 9), and for all we know about Doop he could have been a media figure for years prior to that - Jean might very well have bought that Doop keychain back when she was a professional model. In fact, Jean's familiarity with X-Force might lead of Wolverine's awareness of them, leading from X 116 to XFOR 116 & 120. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2004 09:43 pm    
By Dhall

Quote:
>>>
Not really. X-Force III are already firmly established media personalities as of their first appearance, and there's very little indication of how long they've been around, or (more specifically) how long Doop has been marketable.
<<<
 

Hence my use of the word "suggests," instead of the word proves. 

And we know from other issues that Doop and Logan go way back, he's already familiar with Doop, from before XFOR 116-120. 

Dave H.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2004 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Sorry -- it occurs while Wolvie is clinically dead, between W2 #175-176. 


Drat. I'm inclined to keep the date on April 11 rather than move it back. I, um, don't suppose folks would consider placing Mariko's death in W2 57 sometime after the Mardi Gras of X 9, despite the X-Men Index...?  

I still do have to make a few adjustments to the calendar, though, even without moving issues of W2 back (mostly Beast considerations, e.g. putting CYCLOPS 1 after XX 4). I'll have a revised list available for review soon.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Posted: 09 Nov 2004 08:37 am    Post subject: Heroes Reborn
By RLG

Lately, I've been working on a full analysis of the four titles that comprise the Heroes Reborn storyline (Paul B, I haven't forgot) and have come up with a question. With the exception of Spider-Man's and Hulk 2's visit during the Heroes Return mini-series, there are 3 occasion in which a Marvel character visits the Franklinverse during the time in which the heroes spend there: 

1) Cable appears in CA2 5 
2) Jean Grey visits in X 65 
3) Dr. Strange visits in H2 450/2 

Does anyone know (Earth-616 calendar-wise) the order in which these appearances occur? My thoughts are that whatever the order of the visits is per Earth-616 will dictate the order in which they are placed in the Franklinverse. For example, if there is clear evidence that Jean's visit MUST occur after Cable's due to events on Earth-616, I'd be inclined to keep that order in the coresponding Franklinverse chronology. 

Also, does anyone have a cross-title working chronology of the Heroes Reborn events? I seem to recall one on the FFPlaza web site, but I could be wrong. 

- RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2004 09:10 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

RLG wrote: 

Also, does anyone have a cross-title working chronology of the Heroes Reborn events? I seem to recall one on the FFPlaza web site, but I could be wrong. 
 

There used to be one there, but I took it down when I switched the Character Chronologies to a database-driven section. I had actually first started posting that while Heroes Reborn was still going on, and it seemed more appropriate, since the theory at the time was that it was not going to eventually tie back in to the mainstream MU. But then we had the follow-up Heroes Reborn books, and the Doom series, and then Doom crossing over in Fantastic Four, then the crossovers from Thunderbolts... it was just getting too unwieldly for the scope of FFPlaza. 

But here's what I used to have posted. It conveniently addresses two of the specific issues you were already questioning... 

Captain America 7 pp 6 -11 
Captain America 7 pp 16 -17 
Captain America 3 pp 1 - 5 
Fantastic Four 6 p 22 
Fantastic Four 5 pp 6 - 8 
Iron Man 9 pp 5 - 7 
Iron Man 9 pp 9 - 11 
Captain America 1 
Iron Man 9 pp 13 - 20 
Iron Man 1 pp 1 - 3 
Heroes Reborn  
Captain America 2 
Captain America 3 pp 6 - 17 
Fantastic Four 1 
Fantastic Four 2 
Avengers 1 
Avengers 2 
Avengers 3 
Iron Man 1 pp 4 - 39 
Iron Man 2 
Fantastic Four 3 
Iron Man 3 
Incredible Hulk 450 (2nd Story) 
Captain America 3 pp 18 - 22 
Captain America 4 
Iron Man 4 
Captain America 5 
Fantastic Four 4 
Avengers 4 
Fantastic Four 5 pp 1 - 5 
Fantastic Four 5 pp 8 - 22 
Avengers 5 
Iron Man 5 pp 3 - 11 
Iron Man 5 pp 1 -2 
Iron Man 5 pp 12 - 23 
Fantastic Four 6 pp 1 -21 
Fantastic Four 6 p 23 
Avengers 6 
Iron Man 6 
Captain America 6 
Fantastic Four 7 
Avengers 7 pp 1 - 11 
Iron Man 7 pp 1 - 13 
Avengers 7 pp 12 - 22 
Avengers 8 
Captain America 7 pp 1 - 5 
Captain America 7 pp 12 - 15 
Captain America 7 pp 18 - 22 
Avengers 9 
Avengers 10 pp 1 - 5 
Iron Man 7 pp 14 - 22 
Iron Man 8 
Captain America 8 
Iron Man 9 pp 1 - 4 
Iron Man 9 p 8 
Iron Man 9 p 12 
Iron Man 9 pp 21 - 22 
Captain America 9 
Fantastic Four 8 
Fantastic Four 9 
Fantastic Four 10 
Captain America 10 p 7 
Captain America 10 p 9 
Captain America 10 pp 1 - 6 
Captain America 10 p 8 
Captain America 10 pp 11 - 23 
Iron Man 10 
Iron Man 11 
Captain America 11 
Avengers 10 pp 6 - 21 
Avengers 11 
Fantastic Four 11 
Fantastic Four 12 
Avengers 12 
Iron Man 12 
Captain America 12 
Heroes Reborn: The Return 1 
Heroes Reborn: The Return 2 
Heroes Reborn: The Return 3 
Heroes Reborn: The Return 4 
Heroes Reborn: Doomsday 
Heroes Reborn: Rebel 
Heroes Reborn: Masters of Evil 
Heroes Reborn: Ashema 
Heroes Reborn: Remnants 
Heroes Reborn: Doom

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2004 06:23 pm    
By RLG

Thanks SKleefeld!! That is the list I was remembering. BTW, I really enjoy the changes you've made in FFPlaza. 

PS: I MEANT to type "CA2 6" not "5" as the issue in which Cable visits the Franklinverse. 

- RLG

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 05 Nov 2004 09:35 am    Post subject: Two Modoks?
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Given the flashback scene in CA&F 9, are we to believe that there have been two Modoks? 

In CA&F 9-FB, an unwilling, German-speaking AIM agent named Gerlach is brought before the AIM Scientist Supreme, who is decked out in the yellow AIM uniform and helmet. The Scientist tells Gerlach, "You alone have the glorious honor of being the subject prime of the A.I.M. Scientist Supreme! You are to be endowed with the greatest power in the known universe! I am consumed by jealousy of you! Thanks to our prime research team, and, of course, my genius, we have developed the ultimate in Advanced Idea Mechanics -- a hybrid organism of man and machine, capable of millions of complex calculations per millisecond and gifted with vast mental powers, unmatched in all of humankind! How I envy the glory that awaits you, the first Mental Organism Designed Only for Killing -- behold Modok!" Gerlach is placed directly in the Modok shell. I have bolded words to suggest that Gerlach is the first of two Modoks. 

In CA 133-FB, an unwilling, English-speaking AIM agent named George Tarleton (although the name is not noted in this FB) is brought before the AIM Scientist Supreme, who is wearing a white lab coat this time. Tarleton is placed, not directly into the Modok shell, but rather in a cylindrical "alteration chamber." The Scientist Supreme tells him, "You will be a living, breathing computer with the greatest brain on earth! You'll be the deadliest weapon in our arsenal!" "24 hours later," the alteration process is finished and the Scientist tells a flunkie, "It is done! We have created the ultimate intelligence! We'll call him Modok, since he is a Mental Organism, Designed Only for Killing!" Tarleton is enraged at the freak he has become and, realizing his vast power, kills the Scientist Supreme with a single brain blast and takes over AIM "within the hour." 

Given the wording in CA&F 9-FB, the fact that details vary between the two flashbacks, and the fact that the Scientist Supreme is killed in CA 133-FB, I'm thinking that Gerlach is Modok I and Tarleton is Modok II. Modok I is the Modok in the current CA&F story arc. I'm thinking that Tarleton really was killed in CA 313 and that the Modok that has been seen since then in a whole host of comics is either Gerlach or maybe even a third Modok. 

Am I reading this correctly?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 04:11 pm    Post subject: MODOK times three!
By DonCampbell

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Modok I is the Modok in the current CA&F story arc. I'm thinking that Tarleton really was killed in CA 313 and that the Modok that has been seen since then in a whole host of comics is either Gerlach or maybe even a third Modok. 

Am I reading this correctly? 


As I understood it, the original Modok was created to be a MODOC - a Mental Organism Designed Only for Computation. AIM created MODOC for the specific purpose of performing the calculations they needed in order to trap the mysterious x-element which became the basis of their Cosmic Cube. The tremendous strain drove MODOC mad, he became MODOK, killed most of the AIM scientists and took over the organization. This MODOK was killed years later in CA 313 and his mindless-but-remote-controlled body was blown to pieces sometime later. 

Years later, during the "Taking A.I.M." storyline that crossed over between Avengers #386-388 and Captain America #440-441, AIM (which was then manned entirely by Adaptoids) was experimenting with a fragment of their Cosmic Cube at their base on the island of Boca Caliente when they began to lose control of this Cube and needed special help. They first sent MODAM in to try to seal a rupture in the Cube's containment vessel but she failed (CA 440). To replace her, AIM then completed their Project Resurrection (which involved placing a "human organic specimen" into a "receptacle") and recreated MODOK (Avengers 387). This new MODOK then attempted to complete the mission at which MODAM had failed but was trapped within the Cube energy (CA 441). When the unleashed energy of the Cube fragment created a transdimensional warp, the new MODOK was able to rationalize his AIM programming enough so that he was able to enter the warp in an attempt to reach the other dimension known as the Beyond (Avengers 388). 

MODOK next appeared (with no explanation) in the pages of the third Iron Man series and in IRON MAN/CAPTAIN AMERICA '98 he behaved like he was the original MODOK. He even seemed to have all the memories of the original, including his familiarity with Captain America. How this could be was never explained. 

The explanation for how MODOK survived his experience in the Beyond dimension was finally provided in the second DEFENDERS series when it was revealed that the Headmen had rescued MODOK from the Beyond. 

Based on this information, I would have to conclude that there have been at least three different MODOKs so far and that the Gerlach version has never apppeared previously. Certainly the circumstances under which the original MODOK was "recreated" are not the same as in the flashback in CA&F #9. However, I don't have a clue about how exactly the Gerlach version is meant to fit into the continuity of the other two MODOKs. Sorry. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 04:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks for the elaboration, Don. Indeed we do have multiple Modoks here. I'm still inclined to think of Gerlach as the chronologically earliest, but I'm hoping that future issues of CA&F will explain things.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 08:38 pm    
By SeanCurtin

"Scientist Supreme" is a title (for example, Alexandro Brannex, or at least an Adaptoid using his name, held the position after MODOK's death); the Scientists in the flashbacks don't actually have to be the same guy. That said, I agree with the reasoning that has Gerlach as MODOK I, Tarleton as MODOK II and the MODOK seen from "Taking AIM" onwards as MODOK III. 

-Sean

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 09:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

True. The Scientist Supreme who created the Gurlach Modok does take credit for coming up with the Modok idea. The Scientist Supreme who created the Tarleton Modok takes credit for creating...the Tarleton Modok. But I see no reason (yet, anyway) to assume that they're two different characters.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 10:43 pm    
By DonCampbell

It might be helpful/relevant to consider when each MODOK first appeared. I'm not exactly sure how Marvel Time correlates to real time so please correct me if I make any errors. 

First, according to Captain America & the Falcon #9, the Gerlach MODOK was created "eight years ago" (Marvel Time). 

Second, the Tarleton MODOK first appeared in Tales of Suspense #94 (cover-dated October, 1967). That's 37 years ago in real time but I'm not sure how long ago that would be in Marvel Time. Obviously, if 37 years of real-world time is the equivalent of more than eight years of Marvel Time, then the Tarleton MODOK would have existed before the creation of the Gerlach MODOK, right? 

Finally, the Adaptoid AIM's recreation of the Tarleton MODOK first appeared in the "Taking AIM" storyline from 1995. Since 9 real-world years are definitely less than 8 Marvel Time years, this MODOK is certainly the most recent and should be considered MODOK III. However, the MCP treats this MODOK as just a continuation (or resurrection) of the Tarleton MODOK. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 03:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
First, according to Captain America & the Falcon #9, the Gerlach MODOK was created "eight years ago" (Marvel Time).  
<<<


I did notice that "eight years ago" reference, but I'm inclined to ignore it. You'd need to understand just where Marvel stands on the passage of Marvel Time to place it within any intended temporal context. (Or I suppose you can consider that the flashback occurred around the time of Franklin Richards' birth, since he's supposed to be eight.  ) I'd rather let plot and character references such as those previously mentioned dictate chronological placement.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 03:43 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I'd rather let plot and character references such as those previously mentioned dictate chronological placement. 
<<<

::squints: 

::rubs eyes:: 

Looks like I picked the wrong day to quit drinking. 

Paul, 'zat you? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 04:56 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Paul, 'zat you?  
<<<

Gee, Jeph, you just haven't been paying attention. You have me pegged as a slave to temporal references. But you should know that: (a) story and character references do trump temporal references for me (Franklin aside) -- I've been saying all along that temporal references can add more clues to placement; (b) when we're talking about references to lengthy periods of time in the MU, I will disagree with Marvel because I believe that more time has passed since FF 1 than Marvel is likely to note in references like the one in CA&F 9. 

I have gone on about both of these positions at length in the past, so my tendency to ignore that "eight years ago" reference really should be no surprise.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 07:54 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

... I was just teasing ya, Paul. Sorry.  

Now, back to the Three Modoks coversation... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Nov 2004 11:17 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, though we'll probably get more flashback's next issue, (in CA&F #10) I just want to point out that this Gerlach fellow we see in CA&F #9, we don't actually SEE him become MODOK. We see him being led towards the giant headgear...but who knows? Maybe this was AIM's first attempt at creating a MODOK, (or a MODOC, or whatever) and it failed, killing this Gerlach figure. Thus, no need for a third MODOK entry. 

On the other hand: 
Quote: 
>>>
To replace her, AIM then completed their Project Resurrection (which involved placing a "human organic specimen" into a "receptacle") and recreated MODOK (Avengers 387). This new MODOK then attempted to complete the mission at which MODAM had failed but was trapped within the Cube energy (CA 441). 
<<<


That's somewhat vague...does this scene show exactly who they used to create the 2nd MODOK? Could THIS be the Gerlach figure, being turned into MODOK?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Nov 2004 08:53 am    
By RLG

Although I cannot help in this discussion in terms of MODOK I, II, or III. I did want to point out that there IS (or at least was) a MODOK in the Franklinverse. He first appeared in CA2 5, where he, Baron Zemo, and AIM agents temporarily took over the SHIELD Helicarrier. He and is associates where defeated by Cap, Cable, and Rikki Barnes. 

MODOK and his associates where placed in holding cells aboard the Helicarrier and remained there until A2 8. In that issue, the Franklinverse version of Loki absorbed the life-energy of the incarcerated villains. 

To my knowledge, that was the end of that MODOK. It is possible that he remains at large in the Franklinverse (or whatever its called these days.) 
There is evidence to suggest that Loki's vicitms were returned to life after his defeat in A2 11. The Black Knight, Whirlwind, Melter, and Radioactive Man are all disposed of by Loki in the same manner in A2 9, but they appears in MASTERS OF EVIL. 

Hope I haven't muddied the waters too much. 

-RLG

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Posted: 09 Nov 2004 05:23 pm    Post subject: Gerlach probably not in Avengers #387
By DonCampbell

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Well, though we'll probably get more flashback's next issue, (in CA&F #10) I just want to point out that this Gerlach fellow we see in CA&F #9, we don't actually SEE him become MODOK. We see him being led towards the giant headgear...but who knows? Maybe this was AIM's first attempt at creating a MODOK, (or a MODOC, or whatever) and it failed, killing this Gerlach figure. Thus, no need for a third MODOK entry. 

On the other hand: 
Quote: 
>>>
To replace her, AIM then completed their Project Resurrection (which involved placing a "human organic specimen" into a "receptacle") and recreated MODOK (Avengers 387). This new MODOK then attempted to complete the mission at which MODAM had failed but was trapped within the Cube energy (CA 441). 
<<<

That's somewhat vague...does this scene show exactly who they used to create the 2nd MODOK? Could THIS be the Gerlach figure, being turned into MODOK? 
<<<


The "human organic specimen" who appears in two panels in Avengers #387 just looks like a typical adult male (Caucasian?) human who is strapped naked into a receptacle (which does slightly resemble the MODOK headgear). I suppose that he could be Gerlach (except for the fact that Gerlach is still clothed when he's being put into the headgear in CA&F #9). However, the circumstances of the transformations in those two issues seem to be significantly different. In Avengers #387, Project Resurrection was carried out on the island of Boca Caliente by AIM agents who were all Adaptoids and it was apparently carried out in a hurry because MODOK's powers were needed to contain the energy from a Cosmic Cube fragment. On the other hand, the flashback in CA&F #9 takes place in the Lair of the AIM Scientist Supreme, the agents (including the Scientist Supreme) all appear to be humans, and there is no indication of an urgent need for a MODOK. Unless contradicted by a future story, I'd say it was NOT Gerlach in Avengers #387. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 09 Nov 2004 06:28 pm    
By RLG

Oops!! I MEANT "CA2 6" not "CA2 5" as the first issue that the Franklinverse MODOK appears. 

- RLG

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Thread 12

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 10:48 pm    Post subject: Silver Surfer vol. 3 additions
By lkseitz

I've been reading back issues again. Here are changes and additions related to SILVER SURFER vol. 3 #1-31. Why those issues? That's Engleheart's complete run. Then there's two fill-ins by Valentino before Starlin took over. As much as I liked Starlin's run, I don't think I'm up to it right now. Maybe I'll go index missing characters from SHOGUN WARRIORS as I threatened last time, when I did GODZILLA. 

First, new entries: 

AL'ARKOK [SKRULL (disguised as Tallim Pay (Zenn-lavian))] 
SS3 2 
SS3 3 

APTAK [SKRULL] 
SS3 6 
SS3 8 
SS3 10 (death) 
SS3 13 (body) 

I believe I read here a while back that appearances of dead bodies still count. 

BAS-FOR, LIEUTENANT [KREE] 
SS3 7 

DWI-ZANN, GEN [KREE] 
SS3 31 

EINE, MEDIC [KREE] 
SS3 5 

HAL-KONN, COLONEL [KREE] 
SS3 13 

HON-SANN, COLONEL [KREE] 
SS3 13 

JAC-OYAA, CAPTAIN [KREE] 
SS3 20 

KAR-SAGG [KREE] 
SS3 29 

KRAT [SKRULL] 
SS3 13 
SS3 14 

KRILOK, COMMANDER [SKRULL] 
SS3 3 

KYLOR(, Would-be Emperor) [SKRULL] 
SS3 4 
SS3 5 
SS3 6 
SS3 8 
SS3 13 

MATANI (Collector's wife) 
SS3 3 

MOTHERBOARD 49.7 
SS3 24 

MUZ-KOTT, MAJOR [KREE] 
SS3 3 

NENORA [SKRULL] 
SS3 6 
SS3 7 
SS3 8 
SS3 10 
SS3 11-FB 
SS3 13 
SS3 20 
SS3 26 
SS3 28 
SS3 29 
SS3 30 

NEP-PERR, LIEUTENANT [KREE] 
SS3 20 

NOS-VERR, GEN [KREE] 
SS3 30 

NULLET (Semi-sentient technician of Supreme Intelligence) 
SS3 6 

I'm not sure if Nullet really qualifies for an MCP entry. 

PAP-TONN [KREE] 
SS3 8 

PTAKR, AMBASSADOR [SKRULL] 
SS3 2 
SS3 3 

RIPAN [SKRULL] 
SS3 4 
SS3 6 
SS3 8 
SS3 13 

SENTRY 7497 
SS3 28 
SS3 29 

ST'KR [SKRULL] 
SS3 27 

STA-RAMM, PRIVATE [KREE] 
SS3 3 

STRANGER 
SS3 27 
SS3 29 
SS3 30 
SS3 31 

TAR-RELL, CAPTAIN [KREE] 
SS3 5 

TUS-KATT [KREE] 
SS3 6 
SS3 31 

YORAK(, Would-be Emperor) [SKRULL] 
SS3 6 

Next, the updates to existing entries. I also have a Contemplator change, but I'll discuss it in a separate post. 

ASTRONOMER [ELDER] 
... 
SS3 9 
** SS3 15-FB 
SS3 15 
... 

CLUMSY FOULUP 
** SS3 11 
** SS3 12 
** SS3 19 
** SS3 20 
** SS3 25 
** SS3 26 
** SS3 28 
** SS3 29 
** SS3 30 
** SS3 31 
SS3 53 

GARDENER [ELDER] 
** SS3 6-FB (Meets Obliterator) 
H2 247-FB 
... 

JEMIAH [**CELESTIAL] 

POSSESSOR/KAMO THARNN [** ELDER] 
... 
SS3 9 
** SS3 15-FB 
SS3 15 
... 

Okay, I have a problem with this entry. As far as I noticed, Possessor is the only Elder who's entry consists of a link to his real name. All others are referenced by the name that goes with their obsession (e.g. Collector, Grandmaster, Trader). Could we change it for consistency's sake, please? 

NOVA II 
... 
SS3 10 
** SS3 11-FB 
SS3 11 
... 

OBLITERATOR [ELDER] 
** SS3 6-FB 
SS3 4 
... 

PHAE-DOR [KREE] 
... 
CM 53 
** SS3 6 

QUOI/SEQUOIA 
** SS3 4-FB (birth) 
** WCA2 39-FB (moving in to house) 
** SS3 4-FB (playing) 
** FF 325 
A:CQ 2 
... 

SILVER SURFER 
... 
SS3 10 
** SS3 11-FB 
SS3 11 
... 

SILVER SURFER IMPOSTER/ ** BARTAK [** SKRULL] 
** SS3 14-FB (p 19; pan 2-4) 
** M/GN 1 (p 38) 
** SS3 14-FB (p 20, pan 1) 
** M/GN 1 (p 49, 62) 
** SS3 14-FB (p 20, pan 2-4) 
SS3 11 
... 

This entry currently has a note stating how it was established he existed. I believe this is no longer necessary as it's spelled out in SS3 11 and 13-14. You could theoretically move the second SS3 14 flashback to after M/GN 1 pages 49 & 62, but I believed it made more sense for the heroes to chit-chat before Mar-Vell's death than after. 

TRADER [ELDER] 
** SS3 6-FB (meets Obliterator) 
SS3 4 
SS3 7 
SS3 9 
** SS3 15-FB 
SS3 15 
...
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 10 Nov 2004 02:49 pm    
By lkseitz

lkseitz wrote: 
CLUMSY FOULUP 
** SS3 11 
** SS3 12 
** SS3 19 
** SS3 20 
** SS3 25 
** SS3 26 
** SS3 28 
** SS3 29 
** SS3 30 
** SS3 31 
SS3 53 
 


By chance I came across this post today. It seems by the time Russ gets to my post above, Clumsy Foulup's entry will already read as above thanks to Arthur. It didn't occur to me to search the message boards in case someone already submitted similar changes. 
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 13

Posted: 10 Nov 2004 01:07 pm    Post subject: Firelord Timeline
By thedart

I remember Firelord being in Guardians of the Galaxy (I believe issues 24 & 25). These issues did not appear in the Marvel timeline. After doing a search I saw that GOTG was being listed as a seperate timeline (under the Killraven post back in Feb). Didn't this series use the same Firelord, Galactus & Starhawk that appeared in the first Volume of Thor? I know that this would all have to reside in the future, but is there any reason why it doesn't get listed with the normal timeline? 

I'm sorry if this question was already answered, but I didn't find it in the search. 

Thanks 
Mark

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Posted: 10 Nov 2004 05:04 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

thedart wrote: 
>>>
I remember Firelord being in Guardians of the Galaxy (I believe issues 24 & 25). These issues did not appear in the Marvel timeline. After doing a search I saw that GOTG was being listed as a seperate timeline (under the Killraven post back in Feb). 
<<<


Not sure what you mean here. Guardians of the Galaxy (not just issues 24 & 25) isn't listed anywhere, because the books haven't been analyzed yet. Someone might have proposed a separate timeline in the Forum back in February, but we haven't taken action on it yet. 


thedart wrote: 
>>>
Didn't this series use the same Firelord, Galactus & Starhawk that appeared in the first Volume of Thor? 
<<<


Depends on what you mean by "the same". In the cases of Firelord and Galactus, barring time travel, they would be alternate future versions of the characters we're familiar with. In the case of Starhawk, only his (and her) current timeline appearances have been listed (just like Vance Astro, Nikki, Charlie-27, Yondu and Martinex), and none of the GOTG books. When we get around to analyzing the future series, we'll probably move them into their own timeline, but no promises that it'll be the Killraven timeline. 


thedart wrote: 
>>>
I'm sorry if this question was already answered, but I didn't find it in the search. 
<<<


Welcome aboard, Mark. 


watching: nypd blue

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Posted: 10 Nov 2004 07:27 pm    
By Enda80

Guardians of the Galaxy takes place on an alternate Earth. According to the Handbook, one point of divergence has to do with Reed Richards never releasing his experimental starship to the US government (Vance Astro entry). 

Do a search for DonCampbell for a more thorough discussion of Guardians.

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Thread 14

Posted: 12 Nov 2004 08:07 am    Post subject: Early She-Hulk Omissions
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I was just scanning through what's on the MCP listing for She-Hulk and noticed several omissions from her early years. It should begin... 

MGN 18 - FB 
A@ 13 - FB 
SH 20 - FB 
SH 25 - FB 
SH 22 - FB 
SH 24 - FB 
SH 20 - FB 
SH2 53 - FB 
A@ 13 - FB 
SH 25 - FB 
SH3 1 - FB 
SH 25 - FB 
SH3 1 - FB 
{SH 1} 
... 

Basically, they're all flashbacks to various points in Jen's childhood, mostly concerning her relationship with Zapper. The last four flashbacks in SH 25 and SH3 1 are her sutdying in and graduating college.

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 13 Nov 2004 09:46 am    Post subject: Abridged MCP?
By bpl323

Hi all- 

I'm looking for a list of all the primary characters from the Marvel Universe. Basically I'm trying to find an abridged version of the MCP. This would include, but not limited to, characters on the animated series, original Stan Lee creations, characters from movies, characters from video games... etc. 

Anyone know where I can find a list like this?

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 12:03 pm    
By Ross

"Primary characters" is an awfully hazy classification. My guess would be that you're on your own with this one.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2004 01:11 pm    
By John Simons

This person seems to have attempted something along those lines, although I'm not sure how complete it is or whether he/she keeps it updated. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/mastguid.htm#Master
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Thread 16

Posted: 14 Nov 2004 03:45 pm    Post subject: Puppet Master addition; earliest.....
By Enda80

PUPPET MASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS 
**NM @4/3 
SS3 130 
SS3 131 
M/TU 6-FB 
{FF 8} 

The odd looking male making figures out of clay with young Jessica Drew? He is called Phillip, then in a later panel "Masters boy". This takes place in Transia. 

Phillip plus Masters plus Transia equals Puppet Master.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Nov 2004 04:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Excellent. 


watching: winds of war

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Thread 17

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 11:10 pm    Post subject: Characters with Titles or Rank
By lkseitz

I'm re-reading SILVER SURFER (vol. 3) and looking for minor characters or ones currently missing from the MCP. In the process, I'm coming across many characters with titles (e.g. Emperor) or military ranks (e.g. Captain). For an average human joe in the armed forces, the rule seems to be last name, rank first name (e.g. ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT"). But how does this apply to aliens? (And can I presume aliens are exempt from the "no listing for first name only" rule as they often don't have more than one name?) The Kree Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) will obviously be listed under C because that was his superhero moniker. But what about Private Sta-Ramm or Captain Tar-Rell? I think they should be listed as Sta-Ramm, Private and Tar-Rell, Capt. 

More confusingly, what about ambassadors, emperors, empresses, and so on? I see Empresses R'Kill and S'Byll (Skrulls) both listed under E, but Lilandra Neramani (Shi'ar) is listed under L without a title. So what about Emperors Kylor and Yorak? Both were claimants to the throne the same time as S'Byll, but all were self-proclaimed. (S'Byll ultimately won the title.) I haven't a clue here. 

And what about Nenora, the Skrull disguised as a Kree? She went from Chief Coordinator to Supreme Leader when the Supreme Intelligence's mind got scrambled. Do we simply list her under N without any title? 

This has undoubtedly come up before, but my search of the current message board for information was unsuccessful.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 15 Oct 2004 01:22 am    
By DonCampbell

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
More confusingly, what about ambassadors, emperors, empresses, and so on? I see Empresses R'Kill and S'Byll (Skrulls) both listed under E, but Lilandra Neramani (Shi'ar) is listed under L without a title. So what about Emperors Kylor and Yorak? Both were claimants to the throne the same time as S'Byll, but all were self-proclaimed. (S'Byll ultimately won the title.) I haven't a clue here. 
<<<


First, R'Kill's name should be spelt "R'Klll." That's how it was spelt (as R'KLLL) during her first and last appearances (in FF stories). The "R'Kill" spelling first appeared in the third Silver Surfer series and is incorrect. 

Second, "Neramani" is apparently the family name of the current Shi'Ar imperial dynasty. Thus, if we ignore her title, Lilandra should be listed under N as "Neramani, Lilandra." Also, her title would be Imperiatrix (I think). 

Third, the only two Skrull Emperors whose names have been revealed so far were both named Dorrek. Both are listed under D but their title of Emperor is not included in either of their listings. Furthermore, there's a problem with how the MCP has numbered them. The Dorrek who ruled in the 20th Century is listed simply as "Dorrek" since his first published appearance was in Fantastic Four #18. The Dorrek who ruled about one million years ago is listed as "Dorrek II" because his only appearance (in a flashback in Avengers #133) was published after FF 18. However, Marvel: The Lost Generation #11 revealed that the 20th Century Dorrek actually ruled as "Emperor Dorrek VII." So, should these two Dorrek listings be changed so that their numbering reflects their order in the history of the MU instead of the order in which their first appearances were published? If so, "Dorrek [Skrull]" would become "Emperor Dorrek VII [Skrull]" and "Dorrek II [Skrull]" would become "Emperor Dorrek [Skrull]", right? 

Fourth, what about Princess Anelle, the late daughter of Dorrek VII and his wife, R'Klll? She is listed simply as "Anelle" with no mention of either her title or species. 

Fifth, just to be thorough, what about Prince Dezan, the pacifist younger brother of Dorrek VII? He only appeared in Avengers Annual #14 (1985)... but I liked the character and he doesn't deserve to be omitted. 

Finally, I wouldn't list either Kylor or Yorak as Emperors because nobody (except their followers) considered them to be the rightful Emperor. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 15 Oct 2004 06:59 am    
By Ant-Man

DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
...Lilandra should be listed under N as "Neramani, Lilandra." Also, her title would be Imperiatrix (I think) 
<<<


Her title used to be Majestrix
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 12 Nov 2004 12:49 pm  
By lkseitz

Should I be concerned that no member of the Board has commented on the lack of consistency regarding characters with a rank or title? (And I don't mean characters like Doctor Doom and Captain America, where it's part of their code name.) Can we get any sort of ruling on how they should be listed? From the examples given, it seems to mostly relate to rulers and members of royalty.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2004 01:05 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I wouldn't say that Board members' "votes" count more than anyone else's. Still, since you asked... 

Personally, I'm a fan of the Lastname, Title Firstname format. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Nov 2004 01:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Royal titles are inherited, and should be listed alphatically, by title: KING GEORGE, rather than GEORGE, KING. 

Be careful with aliens. Don't assume that the daughter of an alien king holds the title of Princess. 

Military titles and doctorates (including Professor), since they often follow their owner into retirement, should be listed LAST NAME, TITLE FIRSTNAME, where the complete name is known, and the title is not part of a codename. 

Beyond that, be wary of titles. Many titles only describe the current occupation. For instance, Colin Powell is listed as POWELL, GEN. COLIN, not POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE GEN. COLIN. Heck, we don't even list "President" as part of Presidential listings. 

That's the way I think it *should* be. Help me bend the actual listings to fall in line. 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 02:22 am    
By Jim Smith

What about the Barons Zemo? Heinrich is listed as "ZEMO/BARON HEINRICH ZEMO" and Helmut is "ZEMO II/HELMUT ZEMO," with no acknowledgment of his title. Shouldn't the codenames really be "Baron Zemo" and "Baron Zemo II"?

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 11:49 am    
By DonCampbell

I'm not at all certain about how noblemen (like barons) are properly addressed but I seem to recall a story in which Helmut (or was it Heinrich?) referred to himself as "Helmut, the 13th Baron of Zemo." Assuming that I've got both the name and number correct, does that mean that Heinrich and Helmut should properly be listed, respectively, as Baron Zemo XII and XIII? Or is that just for monarchs, like Queen Elizabeth II? 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 12:18 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I wouldn't make the distinction because she's a monarch, but rather because she's an historical figure, as opposed to a fictional character. Listing the Zemo's as XII and XIII would lead to too many questions about the other Zemo's. I'd prefer to leave it the way it is, until previous Zemo's are introduced, thus bumping them down one. 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 12:59 pm    
By lkseitz

I found it a little difficult at first, but I adjusted to this policy. It makes sense. The only real confusion comes when a character is chronologically introduced between or before existing ones and things have to be moved. 

For a concrete example, look at the Firefalls. Firefall (I) was created 200 years ago Marvel time (MT), but in a 1980 flashback real time (RT). Then came Firefall III (Archie Stryker) in 1980 (just a few years ago MT), who was Firefall II at the time. Then MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION got published (2000 RT), putting a new, unrelated Firefall in as Firefall II (pre FF1 MT) and bumping Archie Stryker down to Firefall III. 

(Note, however, than when you visit Rom, Spaceknight Revisited, the numbers don't match because the site specializes in the Rom characters and explaining a skip in the numbering for an unrelated character is too much trouble.)
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 01:20 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

So Harbin Zemo, introduced in the recent A/T miniseries, would now become BARON ZEMO I -- bumping Heinrich and Helmut down to II and III? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 03:15 pm    
By Jim Smith

jephyork wrote: 
So Harbin Zemo, introduced in the recent A/T miniseries, would now become BARON ZEMO I -- bumping Heinrich and Helmut down to II and III? 


To me, there's a difference between the supervillain name "Baron Zemo" (in the tradition of Baron Blood, Baron Strucker, and Baron Mordo) and the title "Baron Zemo" (in the sense of Lord Falsworth). There have been thirteen barons in the family, but only two have run around with magenta socks on their heads trying to kill Captain America. Thunderbolts fans refer to Helmut as "the 13th Baron Zemo," but Marvel fans in general just think of him as "Baron Zemo II" (not "Zemo II" or "Zemo XII") because he's the second guy to use that nom de crime. 

I think I would personally list the actual supervillains of the family as: 

BARON ZEMO/HEINRICH ZEMO 

BARON ZEMO II/HELMUT ZEMO 

BARONESS ZEMO/HEIKE ZEMO 

The other Zemos, who have never been supervillains, would simply be listed in the standard LAST NAME, TITLE FIRST NAME format: 

ZEMO, BARON HARBIN 

ZEMO, BARON HEINRICH see BARON ZEMO 

ZEMO, BARON HELMUT see BARON ZEMO II 

ZEMO, BARONESS HEIKE see BARONESS ZEMO 

ZEMO, BARONESS HILDA/"JANICE DARE" 

Just to be more confusing, you've also got the Counter-Earth Zemos from CA2 6 and TB 59-62: 

BARON ZEMO/BARON HEINRICH ZEMO | COUNTER-EARTH 

IRON CROSS/HELMUT ZEMO | COUNTER-EARTH

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Posted: 16 Nov 2004 09:21 am    
By lkseitz

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Royal titles are inherited, and should be listed alphatically, by title: KING GEORGE, rather than GEORGE, KING. 

Be careful with aliens. Don't assume that the daughter of an alien king holds the title of Princess. 
<<< 


In the case of Princess Anelle, she is specifically referred to as such in the Trial of Galactus trade paperback. (It's in the Asst. Editor's Month issue. I don't have that comic itself.) I'll go file a bug report on the inconsistencies mentioned here to make it easier to correct them.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 18

Posted: 12 Nov 2004 02:41 pm    Post subject: Iron Man's origin
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

IM4 1 has dragged Iron Man's origin story even further forward in time. You'll probably remember that Mike Grell dragged it up to the Reagan era a few years back, sticking it rather awkwardly in "the war against drugs." Less than satisfactory, because it removes the wartime context. 

The new version - given only in outline - is that Tony was injured when shrapnel from one of his own landmines lodged in his heart when he was in Afghanistan consulting on "ways to contain Al Qaeda" and got caught in a skirmish with the Taliban. 

This reads a little oddly at first glance. For what it's worth, Al Qaeda were formed in 1988 as a splinter group from a mujahideen group. However, the Taliban didn't emerge until autumn 1994. Taken literally, then, this account of Iron Man's origin implies a ten year timeline! 

However, in the long run, this might work out rather nicely. Although this version of Iron Man's origin can't take place before 1994, it can happen at any point from 1994 to the present day. Consequently, it will be at least 15 years before there's a compelling need to revise it again! And it won't be that long before any timeline problems fade away. So it provides a stable basis for Iron Man origin flashbacks for the foreseeable future, something that's frankly been missing for at least a decade now.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Nov 2004 02:53 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The new version - given only in outline - is that Tony was injured when shrapnel from one of his own landmines lodged in his heart when he was in Afghanistan consulting on "ways to contain Al Qaeda" and got caught in a skirmish with the Taliban. 
<<<

Or you could take the current U.S. administration's definition of the Taliban: "Anyone who looks vaguely like they were born in the Middle East area." Not surprisingly, it's also the definition of Al Qaeda, Muslims, Arabs, Afghanis, Sunnis, Kurds, Shiites, Iraqis, Iranians, and terrorists. 


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Posted: 12 Nov 2004 04:54 pm    
By Jim Smith

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The new version - given only in outline - is that Tony was injured when shrapnel from one of his own landmines lodged in his heart when he was in Afghanistan consulting on "ways to contain Al Qaeda" and got caught in a skirmish with the Taliban. 
<<<


I'm cheerfully ignoring this revision, because it probably won't have any impact on future stories, and because I know that if they go with it they're just going to have to change it again someday. The basics of Tales of Suspense #39 are all Marvel really needs--Tony's somewhere in third world Asia during a conflict of some sort when he's injured and taken prisoner--so I can't understand why writers keep trying to nail down the particulars. For that matter, I don't even see why Ellis is bringing the origin up, except to assure readers that Tony isn't 50 years old, which we already knew. 

The shift of emphasis from the Cold War to the War on Terror is interesting, though. For all that the real world worries about Islamic extremists acquiring Russian nukes, imagine if Marvel's al-Qaeda bought the Titanium Man armor...

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Posted: 12 Nov 2004 05:35 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Ellis is bringing up the origin because it's issue #1! Recapping the origin is kind of a standard - and the original version simply isn't viable. He hasn't changed the story in any specifics, merely the location. Iron Man is unusual in having an origin story with topical references - only the Punisher shares the same problem, and he's been allowed to age in real time to get round it. Marvel time pretty much dictates that Iron Man's origin has to undergo periodic retconning, once the passage of time renders it absolutely untenable - and that was already the case back in the 1980s.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Nov 2004 09:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Marvel time pretty much dictates that Iron Man's origin has to undergo periodic retconning, once the passage of time renders it absolutely untenable  
<<<


Untenable only from the standpoint of the reader in the real world, not necessarily from a Marvel Universe POV. I much prefer to maintain the integrity of the original stories than keep retconning. It's really not too far beyond my imagination to conceive of a Vietnam era origin for Iron Man that occurred perhaps twenty years before the stories I'm reading now. I just think that the Marvel Universe's versions of real-world events happened in a more compressed time frame. So I'm inclined to ignore the references in IM4 1. Just another way to look at it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Nov 2004 11:21 pm    
By Jim Smith

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Ellis is bringing up the origin because it's issue #1! Recapping the origin is kind of a standard - and the original version simply isn't viable. 
<<<


As I recall, the last Iron Man #1 just briefly mentioned Tony's injury, and sidestepped the question of what he was doing in the jungle when it happened. The 2004 Avengers Handbook says he was inspecting an overseas facility and that Wong-Chu was a Vietnamese rebel working for the Mandarin--I think this version was introduced in Busiek's Iron Man: The Iron Age, unless he was citing some earlier revision. The anachronisms in Iron Man's origin were eliminated long before Ellis even took over the book--it's not broken anymore, so why is he fixing it?

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 12:02 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

So since his origin happens in Afganistan now, does this retcon IM3 #32 out of continuity? That issue brought Wong-Chu back... 

Or was Wong-Chu a creation of Wanda's reality warping powers? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 01:32 am    
By John Simons

If we had to, we could always write this FB off as a different time Stark got hurt in explosion. Later in IM4 1 when he is suiting up and he mentions shrapnel from a landmine he isn't referring to this incident, but the more infamous one from TOS 39. 

Sure, that sounds ridiculous, but I for one would hardly be in favor of throwing out all the backstory you would need to throw out to relocate Shellhead's origin to Afghanistan. 

It goes against the writer's intent, but since Ellis didn't bother to do his homework, my response is tough noogies on him.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 03:46 am    
By Jim Smith

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
It goes against the writer's intent, but since Ellis didn't bother to do his homework, my response is tough noogies on him. 
<<<


I'd be more concerned about dismissing the Afghanistan reference if Ellis was planning a major storyline based on the revision. But unless he's planning an epic about Wong Chu returning as a Taliban mullah, I don't think it's going to come up again, and I suspect it will be quietly forgotten before you can say "Spider-Man: Chapter One."

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 10:05 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I don't think we're talking about an actual *flashback*, though -- from Paul's initial post, it sounds like this new version was given only in dialogue. Which makes it even easier to ignore... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 12:09 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

No, there's a flashback. 

I honestly don't see why people are so keen to ignore this sort of thing. It strikes me as an attempt to impose our own rules on the Marvel Universe. We don't get to do that. It's Marvel's universe, not ours. They can, and do, rewrite it as much as they want. I sense a recurring theme here, where chronologisers lay down their own rules that they WANT the Marvel Universe to comply with, and then complain about "lack of research" when Marvel ignore rules they never claimed to obey in the first place.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 01:04 pm    
By John Simons

Paul, 

How is this different than Chapter One, or Children of the Atom, or that Rogue miniseries, where the creators presented something that was blatantly contrary to what had already been established, and the MCP declared them non-canon? My understanding is that the earliest-published story has the most credibility, and it is incumbent on the new writer to either write his story in keeping with what's already canon, or else to explicity explain why the old story was wrong and the new version is right. Unless subsequent issues of Ellis' run reveal that Wong Chu was the leader of the Taliban, and that the Mandarin was really Bin Laden wearing the Rings of Power, I don't think this half-baked attempt at a retcon passes the acid test.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 02:24 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Chapter One, CotA, and Rogue v2 were all miniseries. They're easier to declare non-canon because you can exile them *in their entirety*. 

In this case, we're talking about declaring one flashback in an ongoing canon series "non-canon" -- while keeping the rest of the issue and rest of the series canon. That's not really do-able... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 03:24 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
In this case, we're talking about declaring one flashback in an ongoing canon series "non-canon" -- while keeping the rest of the issue and rest of the series canon. That's not really do-able...  
<<<


Why isn't it doable, especially when the origin flashback really has no bearing on the canonical main story? Imagine trying to wedge such retcon flashbacks into an MCP reading order for a character. How confusing would that be for the reader trying to follow the story of a character? Here's Tony, he's in Vietnam, no wait Afghanistan, nope, back in Vietnam.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 03:37 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Eh -- I don't particularly care WHERE Tony is. "He's somewhere hostile! Then he gets injured! Then he's Iron Man!" Changing things from the jungle to the desert is a bit of a stretch, but expected in Marvel's forward-sliding timeline. Might happen to Prof. X and the FF's pre-hero wartime careers too... 

We can declare the flashback "incorrect" or riddled with "art errors" -- but I don't think we can declare it NON-CANON. At least, not by my definition of the word. To me, entire books are non-canon, or entire books are canon. We can't pick and choose which panels we like. 

Which brings us back to Paul O.'s point: who are WE to decided what Marvel intends as canon or not? Eventually we reach a point where we're Just Another Fan Site, biased as hell and putting our own spin on *everything* they publish, instead of constantly striving to accurately reflect what's presented in the books. 

I don't want that to happen to us. But that doesn't mean I know what to do with Iron Man's new origin flashback here... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:04 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well this is what I was talking about in the other thread. What's the point of doing the MCP if it all doesn't matter, because Marvel will always ignore it's own history?  

What's the alternative to just ignoring this new flashback? Taking out of the MCP every issue that features Tony in Vietnam? Having two seperate listings for Tony's chronology, (one with Vietnam flashbacks, one with Afgan flashbacks? But what about flashbacks to Tony involved in the war on Drugs? Three seperate listings?)
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:10 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

And waitaminute...I've brought this up before, but here it is again: I keep hearing about how "the prior material takes precedent, and this new stuff is just the author not doing his research!" 

We declared the recent Kingpin series "non-canon" because it didn't heed to prior history. Yet here we have a new flashback with Tony in Afganistan, and we're supposed to just toss out everything that's come before! 

It seems like we're just picking and choosing here...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:16 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Heh. Personally, I vote for saying "discrepancies be damned" and listing it like this: 

old origin flashbacks ~ IM4 #1-FB 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
who are WE to decide what Marvel intends as canon or not?  
<<<

The point is...we already do it. Whether it's a series, an issue, or a flashback is irrelevant to me. We have already exhibited the temerity to declare certain things non-canonical without Marvel's official say-so. I think you're arguing that we're going further down some the slippery slope, but we've already put ourselves on it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 09:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Which brings us back to Paul O.'s point: who are WE to decided what Marvel intends as canon or not? Eventually we reach a point where we're Just Another Fan Site, biased as hell and putting our own spin on *everything* they publish, instead of constantly striving to accurately reflect what's presented in the books. 
<<<

In the case of a flashback, as Paul is reporting we have in IM4 1, we're seeing how someone *remembers* an event. We don't need that remembrance. We saw the actual *event* in TOS 39. I fail to see how that's "biased" or "putting our own spin" on it. We're simply accurately reflecting what's in the books. We don't report that Iron Man was in Vietnam, or Afghanistan, or Latveria, or the Skrull throne world when that shrapnel entered his heart. We simply report that his origin is accurately told in TOS 39. 


watching: lsu vs. alabama

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 12:07 am    
By John Simons

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Chapter One, CotA, and Rogue v2 were all miniseries. They're easier to declare non-canon because you can exile them *in their entirety*. 

In this case, we're talking about declaring one flashback in an ongoing canon series "non-canon" -- while keeping the rest of the issue and rest of the series canon. That's not really do-able... 
<<<


Whoa, hang on there, chief... what's this "we" stuff? I never said anything about declaring it non-canon. My argument is, unless Ellis further illuminates us on how IM's origin actually happened in Afghanistan, it could be possible for us to write this FB off as a seperate incident where Tony was hurt in an explosion. Perhaps it was just a mild concussion or some other lesser injury. 

There might even be evidence to back this up. In IM: IA 1 (p11pn5), just before Iron Man's origin, Tony tells Pepper, "I'm thinking of touring the plants in the Southern Hemisphere." Maybe Afghanistan was one of his first stops, before moving on to Nam.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 12:57 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Chapter One, CotA, and Rogue v2 were all miniseries. They're easier to declare non-canon because you can exile them *in their entirety*. 

In this case, we're talking about declaring one flashback in an ongoing canon series "non-canon" -- while keeping the rest of the issue and rest of the series canon. That's not really do-able... 
<<<

Whoa, hang on there, chief... what's this "we" stuff? I never said anything about declaring it non-canon.  
<<<

Jeph was reponding the question you asked here, chief: 

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
How is this different than Chapter One, or Children of the Atom, or that Rogue miniseries, where the creators presented something that was blatantly contrary to what had already been established, and the MCP declared them non-canon? 
<<<

In light of that, it's easy to see how Jeph thought you were contending the flashback in IM4 1 be declared non-canon. 

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
My argument is, unless Ellis further illuminates us on how IM's origin actually happened in Afghanistan, it could be possible for us to write this FB off as a seperate incident where Tony was hurt in an explosion. Perhaps it was just a mild concussion or some other lesser injury. 

There might even be evidence to back this up. In IM: IA 1 (p11pn5), just before Iron Man's origin, Tony tells Pepper, "I'm thinking of touring the plants in the Southern Hemisphere." Maybe Afghanistan was one of his first stops, before moving on to Nam. 
<<<


Perhaps. If Afghanistan was in the Southern Hemisphere. 


watching: sports center

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 01:16 am    
By JLH

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Chapter One, CotA, and Rogue v2 were all miniseries. They're easier to declare non-canon because you can exile them *in their entirety*. 

In this case, we're talking about declaring one flashback in an ongoing canon series "non-canon" -- while keeping the rest of the issue and rest of the series canon. That's not really do-able... 
<<<


It's been done before. ASM2 9 and 10 are in the MCP. Yet, they're stories which make so many references to Chapter One that it's mind-boggling just how the hell they occur without C1 existing in canon. Me, I'd love to see the two issues stricken from the record entirely. But you guys on the MCP see the situation as salvagable, by performing chronological surgery on the bits which don't work and inventing unspoken mock-ups for why someone would be after Peter & Doc Ock for the reasons specified in the story.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 01:54 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote: 
>>>
But you guys on the MCP see the situation as salvagable, by performing chronological surgery on the bits which don't work and inventing unspoken mock-ups for why someone would be after Peter & Doc Ock for the reasons specified in the story. 
<<<


Hunh? I'd ask you to strike the phrase "on the MCP". What unspoken mock-ups has the MCP invented? 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 04:11 am    
By JLH

Sorry, I meant "whoever it was who analyzed those issues in question", way back on the old MCP board. Presumably, all those Chapter One problems were thoroughly discussed by those around here who do such things. In order to make those issues canon it'd require coming up with ways to fill in all the blanks, far greater than merely ignoring this Iron Man flashback. The MCP says Chapter One's not canon, but those two issues specifically cannot work without it, yet they're there, in Spidey's listing and others, with nothing to note any chronological goofs if somebody read those issues in context of the MCP's listings as a whole. 

So, what was it that got those issues approved? Was it "fill in details with something similar to C1 but not the same" or was it "ignore the stuff that ties in"?

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 05:08 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Sorry, I meant "whoever it was who analyzed those issues in question", way back on the old MCP board. Presumably, all those Chapter One problems were thoroughly discussed by those around here who do such things. 
<<<

I don't remember the thorough discussion. I don't even remember the books being analyzed on the old MCP board. 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
In order to make those issues canon it'd require coming up with ways to fill in all the blanks, far greater than merely ignoring this Iron Man flashback. 
<<<

Yeah, I think a lot of people are laboring under this misconception. While there are certainly contributors here in the forum who specialize in filling in the blanks, that has nothing to do with the chronologies that are posted on the main site. In fact, it doesn't require filling in the blanks. The chronologies don't address the pet theories of folks here who theorize *why* things happen the way they do. 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
The MCP says Chapter One's not canon, but those two issues specifically cannot work without it, yet they're there, in Spidey's listing and others, with nothing to note any chronological goofs if somebody read those issues in context of the MCP's listings as a whole. 
<<<


I'll deconstruct this sentence. 

1. It's Marvel who says Chapter One's not canon. We were told by Marvel editorial that Chapter One could be treated as the cartoon Spider-Man's origin story. 

2. Let's talk about why the stories "can't work" without Chapter One (although perhaps a new thread might be called for). 

3. And finally, I'm not sure what notations you're expecting to see in the listings, concerning "chronological goofs." We just don't do that. 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
So, what was it that got those issues approved? Was it "fill in details with something similar to C1 but not the same" or was it "ignore the stuff that ties in"? 
<<<

Stories aren't approved. They are, from time to time, declared not canon. Are there any instances where a story in a "normally canon" ongoing title is declared not canon? Not a rhetorical question, by the way. I'd really like to know. I'm sure it's happened, but I'm also fairly confident that the stories in question were patently not canon, on the face of it, rather than deciding that a story is not canon, based on clues in the story. But the real answer to your last question should probably be expected to come from Marvel, rather than us. If I were asked, I would likely reply with, "There's an explanation out there, in a story that Marvel has yet to tell." 


watching: degrassi tng

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 07:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Professor X's career is already being subtly revised - recent flashbacks to his wartime career have avoided mentioning which war it was, but the art seems to show stock scenes associated with Vietnam, not Korea. And his battle with Lucifer was relocated several thousand miles to Afghanistan in X-TREME X-MEN - I have no earthly clue why, but Claremont seemed to be trying to tie it in to his origin story for Sage. 

As for books like CHAPTER ONE and CHILDREN OF THE ATOM - my rule of thumb is that CHAPTER ONE was indeed canon right up to the moment that Marvel decided it wasn't. We know it was canon because there's a story in the Byrne/Mackie run on AMAZING SPIDER-MAN which depends on CHAPTER ONE's canonicity. (The plot hinges on Spider-Man and Dr Octopus both having their origin in the same explosion.) Now that CHAPTER ONE is no longer canon, what is the status of those issues? Either they didn't happen at all, or (for purposes of present continuity, at least) they didn't take place as depicted. That's just the way it works. 

CHILDREN OF THE ATOM was originally intended as canon and, to me, was in a limbo state when it was first published - the creator said it was meant to be canon, Marvel never made an official statement on the subject, and nothing in the core titles addressed the point. Marvel have since emphatically clarified that it isn't canon (by using the "Origins of the X-Men" version of history in the latest Official Handbook) and put the point beyond doubt. That's my general approach to revisionist miniseries - if they're adopted in a later story, they count. If not, they don't. 

IRON MAN, on the other hand, is giving us a flashback to his origin in issue #1 of his own title. It would be absurd to treat that as non-canon. It's plainly intended to be the current version of history, just as all previous revisions of Iron Man's origin were. 

Marvel history DOES fluctuate and change, and that's just the way it is. Analysing the Marvel Universe in any meaningful sense has to embrace and accept that this sort of thing happens. Otherwise, we're not analysing the MU, we're analysing the MU-one-time-removed which we would prefer Marvel to have published. And what's the point of that?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 08:47 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Marvel history DOES fluctuate and change, and that's just the way it is. Analysing the Marvel Universe in any meaningful sense has to embrace and accept that this sort of thing happens. Otherwise, we're not analysing the MU, we're analysing the MU-one-time-removed which we would prefer Marvel to have published. And what's the point of that? 
<<<


But then again, the point of the MCP is to provide a suggested reading order for following the adventures of the MU's characters. Should retcons be integrated with established canonical stories, and how is any sense made of the resulting chronology?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 10:13 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Where a portion of history is significantly rewritten, what you get is two parallel tracks of appearances for that period. So, for example, if CHAPTER ONE had stuck, I would advocate having the listing split into two for the relevant period - one showing "current" continuity (ie, CHAPTER ONE), and the other showing the previous version. This isn't easily accommodated in a simple list format, but it isn't an enormous departure to simply show the list splitting in two and re-merging later on. 

Look at it this way. If CHAPTER ONE had stuck as part of continuity - which would have happened, if it had been better received - how would the MCP be showing it? Are we seriously saying that five years later, no matter how many times Marvel said it was the new version of history, we would simply refuse to acknowledge it? What would be the point of that? 

Attempting to explain away obviously intentional revisions to history as erroneous flashbacks strikes me as similarly ill-advised. It isn't an error, nor is it a flashback to the events seen previously; it's a new version of history which supersedes the previous version. I just don't see how it's a valid reading of the story to explain it away as a misremembering. It's perfectly obvious what the writer is trying to do, and equally plain that he has Marvel's blessing to do so. 

I can see that if this version is never referenced again, it can safely be ignored as a retcon which didn't take hold. I can equally see that there's no point including things like Mike Grell's version of the origin which was mentioned once, never built on, and has already been superseded. 

But I don't see the point in trying to shoehorn self-evident revisions into a continuity which they are obviously setting out to revise. Why bother? They either supersede previous events, or they have no status in continuity at all. (And if this version takes hold, then yes, it deletes or significantly revises certain other stories by knock-on effect. So be it.) 

Suppose upcoming issues give us another four or five flashbacks to Tony's adventures in Afghanistan and the origin of the armour. The general consensus on this thread seems to be that the MCP would respond by sticking its fingers in its ears and saying "La la la, I can't hear you", no matter how emphatically Marvel made the point, on the basis that past history cannot be revised in this way. 

Why can't it? What prevents Marvel from doing so, other than a bunch of rules they don't endorse which we're trying to impose on them?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 12:09 pm    
By ADMINSTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Suppose upcoming issues give us another four or five flashbacks to Tony's adventures in Afghanistan and the origin of the armour. The general consensus on this thread seems to be that the MCP would respond by sticking its fingers in its ears and saying "La la la, I can't hear you", no matter how emphatically Marvel made the point, on the basis that past history cannot be revised in this way. 

Why can't it? What prevents Marvel from doing so, other than a bunch of rules they don't endorse which we're trying to impose on them? 
<<<



Then at some point, the work of the MCP reaches an inevitable conclusion. 


watching: flatliners

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 12:30 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Sure, if they reboot the universe altogether. But I just don't get this reluctance to accept that history can be revised within the framework of the existing Marvel Universe. This is hardly the first time it's happened.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 02:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Quote: 
>>>
Sure, if they reboot the universe altogether. But I just don't get this reluctance to accept that history can be revised within the framework of the existing Marvel Universe. This is hardly the first time it's happened. 
<<<


Other than cases of, say, Transformers being retroactively removed from canon, which I hardly think is of the same level as an origin for a major Marvel character, can you cite some other examples of where history has been altered--without explanation--and, with no reluctance, we've quietly accepted it, as you seem to be saying here. 

Master of Run-On Sentence 

watching: the ring

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 03:22 pm    
By Jim Smith

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
Suppose upcoming issues give us another four or five flashbacks to Tony's adventures in Afghanistan and the origin of the armour. The general consensus on this thread seems to be that the MCP would respond by sticking its fingers in its ears and saying "La la la, I can't hear you", no matter how emphatically Marvel made the point, on the basis that past history cannot be revised in this way. 


I think a distinction needs to be drawn. 

I personally disregard the Afghanistan retcon, because it's an unneeded repair job on an origin story that was already repaired years ago, and because inevitably Marvel is going to change it to something else someday. (Someday it'll be ten years after the last al-Qaeda operative was wiped out of Afghanistan. It sounds impossible now, but I'm sure Stan Lee didn't expect to outlive the Cold War.) I don't think Ellis has a story planned that relies on Afghanistan backstory, so all there is to deal with is one small flashback that doesn't gibe with the preponderance of Iron Man history. So I don't care about the flashback, any more than I would care if a flashback to Spider-Man's early days accidentally depicted him in a green costume. I would not be doing back-flips trying to work Spider-Man-Green into continuity; I would just chalk it up as a mistake. 

Now, as far as Marvel canon goes--yes, the Afghanistan retcon is now canon. I don't think it will be canon for very long until some other writer says it isn't, but Marvel published it and clearly approves of it and there it is. For the purposes of a site like the MCP, I think it has to be taken into account, regardless of how I personally feel about it. Of course, since IM4 1 and TOS 39 depict the same event in different places, and the MCP is a chronology and not a map, the entire argument is beyond the scope of the project anyway. The MCP doesn't care where Tony got injured, just that it was depicted in TOS 39, as recalled in IM4 1. But if Ellis continues to depict Tony's adventures in Afghanistan, I would concede that they should be taken into account on the MCP, in spite of my personal opinion. 

The thing is, my personal opinion is little more long-term than the reality of Marvel's retcons. If the MCP had existed when Man Without Fear retconed Daredevil's history, I'd have said MWF takes precedence, but I'd also be thinking "Man, sooner or later Marvel's going to retcon MWF," and if I understand correctly they have. If I'd been around here when Trouble was published, I'd have said "This is probably going to become Spider-Man canon, so it should be listed," but I'd be muttering under my breath "it won't be canon for long." And it wasn't. 

Marvel flirts with major retcons and retrofits of its characters, but the company is ultimately in love with its Silver Age roots, so the original material usually wins out in the end. John Byrne could only keep Chapter One in canon for as long as he was working on Spider-Man, because subsequent writers would rather research the early 1960s than the late 1990s. (I wonder if JMS and Mark Millar even know there was a miniseries called Chapter One.) Ellis probably only did the Afghan retcon in the first place because the only research he did was to read Essential Iron Man vol. 1, so he may have no idea that the Vietnam War references were retconned for him at least a decade ago. When the next Iron Man writer comes aboard, he'll do the same thing--ignore Ellis and go right back to Suspense #39, and come up with his own version of it. ("Tony Stark goes to Vietnam to inspect an overseas facility, when he triggers a landmine in Afghanistan and is kidnapped by Iraqi insurgents, who sell him to Sudanese warlords so he can build armor to liberate Chechnya...") 

I grant that the MCP has to keep abreast on these things as the reality it defines is constantly changing. But me, personally? Iron Man #1 bored me to tears, so I'm dropping the book and waiting for the next retcon.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 05:49 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The deletion of CHAPTER ONE, which invalidates at least two issues of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, was accepted without any problem. And I don't think anyone seriously argues that Reed and Ben's World War II career remains canon. 

However, whether the MCP has accepted these things without question is hardly the issue. My point is that the Marvel Universe DOES in fact do this sort of thing. People seem to be asserting some kind of ground rule that the Marvel Universe can't be altered in this way. But if Marvel don't agree, what's the basis for insisting that it can't happen? 

Given that such flashbacks have a habit of not sticking, I can see a good argument for not including them in the MCP unless and until they're referenced in future stories; if they don't take, then they're just anomalous flashbacks to be quietly ignored. But if they DO take, I just don't see how we can refuse to accept that they exist.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 06:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The deletion of CHAPTER ONE, which invalidates at least two issues of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, was accepted without any problem. 
<<<

While the validity of the ASM stories is up for discussion, the deletion of CHAPTER ONE without raising eyebrows is hardly a good example, since those stories _in themselves_ were trying to kick out previous canon stories without explanation. Chapter One *should* have been deleted. 



Paul O'Brien wrote: 
And I don't think anyone seriously argues that Reed and Ben's World War II career remains canon. 


Does Gabe Jones' World War II career remain canon? Or Dum Dum Dugan's? Or are all SHIELD agents sucking on the Infinity Formula? 



Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
However, whether the MCP has accepted these things without question is hardly the issue. My point is that the Marvel Universe DOES in fact do this sort of thing. People seem to be asserting some kind of ground rule that the Marvel Universe can't be altered in this way. But if Marvel don't agree, what's the basis for insisting that it can't happen? 
<<<


It *can* happen, with an explanation. What's the basis for insisting that it can't happen *without* an explanation? I don't know; common sense, perhaps. 


Quote: 
>>>
Given that such flashbacks have a habit of not sticking, I can see a good argument for not including them in the MCP unless and until they're referenced in future stories; if they don't take, then they're just anomalous flashbacks to be quietly ignored. But if they DO take, I just don't see how we can refuse to accept that they exist. 
<<<


It's easy. The same way that Marvel refuses to accept that the original stories exist. And to those who would complain that the MCP becomes just a fan site....well, DUH. Marvel hasn't paid for any of this. If Marvel is publishing stories which invalidate the past, without explanation, or invalidate huge chunks of the past, even with explanation*, then the MCP ceases to be a valuable tool, at least the way I had originally envisioned it, and we declare it a chronology for 45 years from FF 1 to the present, or whenever, and let it go at that. 

And, by the way, the whole discussion so far is purely theoretical, from my point of view. I haven't even seen the book yet. I'll probably have no problem with the flashback, as long as it doesn't invalidate TOS 39. In my own mind, I'll blank out any references to Afghanistan, of course, because Marvel will ignore them, if they're smart. 

*I'm much more concerned about what I'm hearing coming out of Avengers, than a retooled flashback to Iron Man's origin. 


watching: packers vs vikings

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 06:22 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Given that such flashbacks have a habit of not sticking, I can see a good argument for not including them in the MCP unless and until they're referenced in future stories; if they don't take, then they're just anomalous flashbacks to be quietly ignored. But if they DO take, I just don't see how we can refuse to accept that they exist. 
<<<


Depends on the context of the reference. MAN WITHOUT FEAR has been directly referenced at least twice that I recall (DD 350 and DD/DPOOL '98), but both of these references to DD:MWF are to one isolated event, which in MCP terms would probably need to be treated as a new flashback rather than a flashback to DD:MWF. Saying that the events being referenced didn't happen can't work here, as they're integral to both stories. 

-Sean

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 04:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
Does Gabe Jones' World War II career remain canon? Or Dum Dum Dugan's? Or are all SHIELD agents sucking on the Infinity Formula? 


I'd assume they are, to be honest. Without some sort of explanation, it's manifestly absurd to have World War II veterans still racing around in action in 2004. (And it's interesting to note that Dum Dum and Gabe have largely been pushed to the margins in recent years.) 

The Marvel Universe is ultimately just a tool for telling stories. There comes a point where the integrity and internal consistency of the MU has to give way to the demands of the story; because of the sliding nature of Marvel time, topical references such as wartime careers must either be tacitly deleted or explained away. No writer wants to write a version of the MU where World War II happened less than 60 years ago, simply in order to maintain appropriate aging. On the contrary, the approach has always been that topical references fade with time. Sometimes that means deleting entire stories or even whole chunks of continuity - and to my mind, that IS better than saddling characters with unworkable and implausible careers which only serve to hinder writers. Obviously the MU has to maintain a high degree of internal consistency in order to be an effective storytelling tool (because it can't provide a stable backdrop, otherwise). But I don't see this sort of thing as liable to undermine the MU. 

Administrator wrote: 
It *can* happen, with an explanation. What's the basis for insisting that it can't happen *without* an explanation? I don't know; common sense, perhaps. 


I fundamentally disagree with that, I'm afraid. 

Let's approach this logically. Suppose that the Marvel Universe can't be altered in this way. If so, there must be a reason why it can't be. That must be either a reason which applies to all shared universes (ie, one which would also extend to DC, Image, Wildstorm, Top Cow etc), or a more specific reason which applies to the MU in particular. 

But there clearly isn't a prohibition with this sort of thing happening in shared universes as a whole. The various Image splinter universes have happily survived all sorts of revisions and rewriting, even though the loss of Rob Liefeld characters had the side effect of invalidating a huge chunk of Spawn's origin. The DCU remains a functional universe despite sweeping changes such as the deletion of the Doom Patrol's entire career. These are far more broad changes than anything we're talking about the Marvel Universe, but other universes have applied them without collapsing, so there can't be any absolute prohibition on them. (They may be undesirable for all sorts of storytelling reasons, but that's a quite separate argument. The first logical question is, is it possible?) 

Now, it might be argued that both Image and DC have in-story explanations for their revisionist history. Image had SHATTERED IMAGE, which actually showed the universes splintering (although that didn't stop Erik Larsen later rebooting his own universe without any of the other Image books being affected). DC have Hypertime, as explained in KINGDOM and SUPERBOY. But if you're going to take that as an in-story explanation, Marvel have one too - Captain Marvel's deletion and remaking of the universe with errors, something which was clearly being put forward as an in-story explanation for continuity glitches. DC don't actually invoke Hypertime every time they do this - the Doom Patrol retcon just happened. The possibility of continuity changing in this way has simply been cemented as a ground rule of the DC Universe. 

So there's no inherent reason why a shared universe can't revise continuity in this way. In that case, is there any reason specific to Marvel why it can't be done? I can't think of one, especially given that Marvel has provided an in-story justification (albeit tucked away in a backwater title), and that Marvel's editorial policy on the issue seems fairly clear. 

Following this reasoning, I can't agree with you that common sense precludes retcons of this sort. On the contrary, to my mind, common sense dictates that Marvel can do whatever they want. They might choose to do something foolish or otherwise undesirable, but the MCP is already littered with dreadful stories. Whether they SHOULD do it is surely irrelevant for MCP purposes; the issue is whether they can, and whether they have.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 08:36 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Without some sort of explanation, it's manifestly absurd to have World War II veterans still racing around in action in 2004. 
<<<

I'm at a loss as to how you would think this is manifestly absurd, and yet accept unexplained changes in history without batting an eye. To my mind, the latter is much more absurd than the former. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
There comes a point where the integrity and internal consistency of the MU has to give way to the demands of the story; because of the sliding nature of Marvel time, topical references such as wartime careers must either be tacitly deleted or explained away. No writer wants to write a version of the MU where World War II happened less than 60 years ago, simply in order to maintain appropriate aging. 
<<<

Just don't refer to them. The Reed example has been used several times. It wasn't WWII, it wasn't the Korean War, it was just a war. Why would any writer today open up the can of worms by writing a flashback placing Reed in Desert Storm, just to move up the timeline? That's not solving a problem, it's creating one. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Following this reasoning, I can't agree with you that common sense precludes retcons of this sort. On the contrary, to my mind, common sense dictates that Marvel can do whatever they want. 
<<<

That's a straw man. No one here is claiming that Marvel shouldn't have the *right* to do whatever they want with their characters. But it's not out of line to expect Marvel to follow the rules of fair storytelling. James Bond is still looking good after fifty years of storytelling, but if the next movie shows 007 in grade school after the Berlin wall crumbles, and then try to tell us that the Cold War stories never happened, there's going to be an outcry from the fans. 

If Marvel can do whatever it wants with its characters, why is it absurd for Dugan and Jones to be running around in WWII stories?

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 09:32 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
I'm at a loss as to how you would think this is manifestly absurd, and yet accept unexplained changes in history without batting an eye. To my mind, the latter is much more absurd than the former. 


Because outright revisions to history don't form part of the story. No explanation is required because, from the perspective of an MU character, they didn't happen. There are simply two versions of continuity, Before and After. They don't have to be reconciled with one another. 

There CAN be problems if you do what DC have attempted over the years, where they yank out a story which is inextricably intertwined with other stories, yet purport to leave those stories in place without explanation. That leads to a chain reaction of inconsistencies and confusion. 

But if the deleted story is irrelevant, or if it's replaced by something which serves the same function, then I don't see a significant problem. Iron Man's origin, for example, is rarely referred to on anything below a very general level. Ellis' revised version keeps essentially the same events but transposed to a different and more timeline-friendly location; it causes no significant knock-on problems. Yes, it invalidates a couple of stories featuring the guy in charge of the prison camp, but he's a very minor villain, and present-day continuity isn't particularly jeopardised by throwing those stories into doubt. All it does is raise questions about the canonicity of some isolated stories from several years ago which were unlikely ever to be mentioned again anyway.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Nov 2004 11:27 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Before this all settles with each us walking away declaring, "Well, let's just agree to disagree" (which is not neccesarily a bad thing) let's just clarify something here. 

I think we're all in agreement that Marvel can do whatever the hell they feel like. The question is what the MCP should do in a situation such as what has been presented here in IM4 1. 

Those of us who don't "approve" of the new flashback shown in IM4 1 say just ignore the flashback and move on. Don't make any revisions to the MCP. I *think* this side is all in agreement that we can go ahead and put the rest of the issue up in the MCP where it belongs in Tony Stark's ongoing chronology. This side is just ignoring the flashback. 

Those of us who do "approve" of the new flashback shown in IM4 1 want the MCP to make some sort of change...but I've yet to figure out is exactly what. Do you want to just erase the old listing? Make a simultaneously listing, (i.e. use the "~" symbol somehow?) Everyone on this side seems to have a different mindset about what to do... 

I for one want to point out that Marvel will eventually again change the flashback, (it may take 20 to 30 years, but still)...so why keep revising? It's my understanding that one of the primary functions of the MCP is so that it can be used by collectors who want to collect every appearance of their favorite character. Now let's say that their favorite character is Tony Stark. The MCP has the original version of Tony Stark's chronology. If you toss out everything that's come before now, all's your left with for "early appearances of Tony Stark" is IM4 1. A collector will buy that issue, read the flashback, and wonder, "That's it?!? Marvel never published anything else showing Tony in his younger years?" The original version, along with other tales which flesh out Tony's early years, (such as Iron Man: The Iron Age) give a collector much more to go on. It just seems like an awful lot would be tossed out just to make way for the latest in what appears to be a never ending series of revisions.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 17 Nov 2004 12:16 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I for one want to point out that Marvel will eventually again change the flashback, (it may take 20 to 30 years, but still)... 
<<<

I think that Jim Smith made a valid point earlier. I doubt that any retcon of this nature will "stick." A couple of years from now, a writer who cares about the Silver Age, like Kurt Busiek, or Peter David, or Roger Stern, will come along and nullify it. I think what some of the folks here are saying, though, is that *until* that happens, we should reflect the books. 

I happen to maintain that we *are* reflecting the books...just different books. I want to respect the original source material. 


watching: retrosexual: the 80's

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Posted: 17 Nov 2004 06:54 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I happen to maintain that we *are* reflecting the books...just different books. I want to respect the original source material.  
<<<

I agree. While Marvel is certainly free to retcon away, we at the MCP are free to declare what we feel is canonical for the purposes of the MCP. In a situation such as IM4 1-FB, in which we have a retcon that contradicts established history and has no impact on continuity, I'm all for leaving the citation out of MCP listings. And I think any attempt to insert such a retcon into the MCP will lead only to confusion.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 19

Posted: 17 Nov 2004 11:06 am    Post subject: Namor Vol. 2
By thedart

I was wondering if a suggestion could be made to add Namor Vol 2 (N2) to the Sub-Mariner Chronology. All 12 issues would flow into the beginning of his list as they take place while he was a kid. 

Also, should the same be done for Thor: Son of Asgard or are we not including childhood story lines into the chronology? 

Mark

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Posted: 17 Nov 2004 12:29 pm
By ADMINISTRATOR

thedart wrote: 
>>>
are we not including childhood story lines into the chronology? 
<<<


If they're canon, we'll include them. 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 17 Nov 2004 12:58 pm    
By thedart

Ok, Sorry for sounding new to the board  , but before I continue asking more questions about comics/storylines that are not posted is there anywhere specific I can go to find out if it is canon or not? 

Mark

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Posted: 17 Nov 2004 03:04 pm    
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

From the home page FAQ #18 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/faq.htm#Q18 

keeping in mind that the list is dynamic and newer non-canon titles may not have ben added yet. 

Quote: 
>>>
are we not including childhood story lines into the chronology?  
<<<


Childhoods are definitely a part of the chronology. Thor's chronology already has many such references. In JIM 102/2 Thor first fully raised his hammer...and there are a dozen or so entries prior to that.

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Thread 20

Posted: 11 Nov 2004 01:21 pm    Post subject: Knights 4
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Well, Knights 4 #12 came out this week, and actually (and finally) gives us something to work with. The FF (nearly) return to the Baxter Building, back in costume. Sue notes that Reed could've solved their financial issues in short order and that, in point of fact, Reed was taking advantage of their financial losses to try to get them to a "normal" life. The explanation is weak, and doesn't jive with how the first couple issues were written, but it gives us something to work with. 

The last suggested placement for the series thus far was after FF3 511. This actually seems to work fairly well. Currently, we have ASM2 500 immediately after that and Spider-Man notes, in FF3 512, that it's been a while since he makes an oblique reference to not having seen them for a while. Since Reed notes in Knights 4 #12 that title has occurred over the "last few months", that plays well with FF3 511 and 512. 

Sue also suggests at the end that Reed get their fortune back by inventing a cure for acne -- which he does in FF3 512. 

So, the order for the FF, it would seem, should be... 
FF3 #505-511 
ASM2 #58 
ASM2 #500 
Knights 4 #1-12 
FF3 #512+ 

I'll also note that at the end of Knights 4 #12, Sue notes that the X-Men (they're not seen, nor are any specific X-Men named) are helping to clean up NYC under Ben and Johnny's coordination and Tony Stark is designing a new exo-skeleton for Psycho-Man. Dr. Strange is noted as having contained Psycho-Man's psychic energies, but it doesn't seem necessary to me for him to be anywhere in particular to have done this. 

On a side note, I think it is cool that someone has finally made use of the physical similarities between Sue and Alicia -- which has not been done since Alicia's introduction back in FF #8! 

So, I think we've got at least the first 12 issues of this series taken care of. Let's just see how #13 lines up...

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:24 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Sean, 

I'm pleased at the way FOUR 12 worked out because it does make it possible for the series to be canonical; it provides a reason for the two "FF is broke" storylines to make sense. And that acne reference in FF 512 sure does place FOUR 12 before it. But I dispute that FF 512 is the next FF issue after FOUR 12. In FF 512, Johnny goes on about the FF's bad reputation, earned during that whole Latverian episode. It doesn't seem quite right to insert months' worth of FOUR between FF 511 and 512. (And I can't recall the argument for placing FOUR after FF 511 off hand.) I'd rather see FF3 68-FF 511 occur closer to FF 512 and would prefer to see FOUR placed further back in time. The question is: how far. 

Now I'm not going to introduce temporal references into the argument... yet. Suffice it to say that I've considered them and they support what I propose below. But I do want to see if this sequence passes the litmus test based on plot and character developments. 

In FF3 61, Johnny acts like a prankster and Sue wants to instill in him a sense of responsibility. As a result, she appoints him as "Chief Financial Officer" of FF, Inc. It is difficult to believe that FOUR 1-12 could occur before this point, because Johnny does show a sense of responsibility in FOUR by assuming the duties of a fireman. Further, it is difficult to place FOUR anywhere between FF3 61 and 66, given the course of events in those issues of FF3. Thus, I'd place FOUR 1-12 after FF3 66. 

Then we have the 12-issue Human Torch (HT) series -- well, actually issues #2-12 as #1 occurs in the past. In HT 2, Johnny and Jian are shown as financial managers of FF, Inc. This clearly places HT 2-12 after FF3 66, the issue in which Johnny and Jian earn these positions. The first story arc in HT involves Johnny's interaction with a New York firefighter. As there is absolutely no inkling here that Johnny has firefighting experience himself, I'm inclined to place HT 2-12 before FOUR 1. 

Okay, in FOUR 1, a "money manager" that Reed hired, Terry Giocometti, has embezzled FF Inc.'s funds. I used to believe that Terry was Johnny's predecessor and the reason FF Inc. would need a new CFO in FF3 68. But I wonder if Terry held some important financial position at the same time Johnny and Jian were in charge of things. Perhaps he was an investor, an accountant, or something. I think we have room to fudge here and assume there would be multiple individuals with the ability to ruin the company. I think it's more important to maintain that firefighting point above and place FOUR 1 after the HT series. 

At the end of FOUR 12 (the issue in which Sue gives Reed the idea of curing acne), Sue wishes that Johnny would remain a fireman. It's obvious that he doesn't, as he's back managing finances in FF 512 (the issue noting that the cure for acne has been achieved). So placing FF3 68 (in which Johnny is a financial manager) after FOUR 12 would make just as much sense from Johnny's career perspective. And as I noted, FF3 68 leads to the Latveria debacle, which then leads into the Thing-is-dead story that ends with FF 511. 

And FF3 68 could occur long enough after FOUR 12 for the FF to build their business back up. 

To sum up, here's what I have, realizing that FOUR 13 could gum up the works... 

FF3 61-66 
HT 2-12 
FOUR 1-12 
FF3 68-FF 511 
ASM2 58 
ASM 500 
FF 512+ 

(Note: FF3 67 does not feature the FF.) 

Again, I could inject a number of temporal references from various issues (Franklin's August birthday, football season, the coming of winter, spring, etc.) to support this, but I'll leave the calendar out of this for now. 

How does this look?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 07:02 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In FF 512, Johnny goes on about the FF's bad reputation, earned during that whole Latverian episode. It doesn't seem quite right to insert months' worth of FOUR between FF 511 and 512. 
<<<
 
True, but the statement could be read as noting the START of their troubles, which FOUR could further emphasise. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
(And I can't recall the argument for placing FOUR after FF 511 off hand.)  
<<<

Tail end of the Johnn Storm: Problem Fireman thread IIRC. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In FF3 61, Johnny acts like a prankster and Sue wants to instill in him a sense of responsibility. As a result, she appoints him as "Chief Financial Officer" of FF, Inc. It is difficult to believe that FOUR 1-12 could occur before this point, because Johnny does show a sense of responsibility in FOUR by assuming the duties of a fireman. Further, it is difficult to place FOUR anywhere between FF3 61 and 66, given the course of events in those issues of FF3. Thus, I'd place FOUR 1-12 after FF3 66. 
<<<

Agreed 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Then we have the 12-issue Human Torch (HT) series -- well, actually issues #2-12 as #1 occurs in the past. In HT 2, Johnny and Jian are shown as financial managers of FF, Inc. This clearly places HT 2-12 after FF3 66, the issue in which Johnny and Jian earn these positions. The first story arc in HT involves Johnny's interaction with a New York firefighter. As there is absolutely no inkling here that Johnny has firefighting experience himself, I'm inclined to place HT 2-12 before FOUR 1. 
<<<

Agreed again 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Okay, in FOUR 1, a "money manager" that Reed hired, Terry Giocometti, has embezzled FF Inc.'s funds. I used to believe that Terry was Johnny's predecessor and the reason FF Inc. would need a new CFO in FF3 68. But I wonder if Terry held some important financial position at the same time Johnny and Jian were in charge of things. Perhaps he was an investor, an accountant, or something. I think we have room to fudge here and assume there would be multiple individuals with the ability to ruin the company. I think it's more important to maintain that firefighting point above and place FOUR 1 after the HT series. 
<<<

The sticking point (well, one of them...) was that the person that told them about the Terry is cited specifically as being the FF's CFO. This is inherently a problem as Johnny is repeatedly cited as CFO from FF3 66 onward (yes, including FF3 512). My thinking (and I think this was John Simmons who pointed this out originally) was that Johnny may have appointed a more experienced CFO during the unusual problems in the aftermath of Authoritative Action and, once those were at least partially under control, then Johnny resumed his duties. 

FF3 68 - FF3 500 are continuous. Reed becomes disfigured in FF3 500 and remains that way until FF3 511. And we know that FOUR 1-12 has to be after FF3 66 because of HT2. So it must occur either where you've placed it, or after FF3 511. But your placement means that Johnny will have been CFO a very short time before he had to relinquish power, right after Sue put him in that position. Considering how adamant she was that this was a good idea, I somehow think the point would be lost if Johnny became CFO and had to let go of that position immediately afterwards, only to be re-instated months later... especially in light of the seriousness with which he took his job as a fireman, and the recognition of that by Sue and Reed in FOUR 12.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2004 10:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The sticking point (well, one of them...) was that the person that told them about the Terry is cited specifically as being the FF's CFO.  
<<<


Ah, yes, Mr. Schultz...expressly referred to as "Fantastic Enterprises' Chief Financial Officer." Fantastic Enterprises? The organization of which Johnny was made CFO in FF3 61 was Fantastic Four, Inc. Then, Johnny and Jian were made co-managers of FF Inc. in FF3 66. Could Schultz' organization be a subsidiary of FF Inc., which, IIRC, lost money through means other than Schultz' embezzlement in FOUR 1?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Nov 2004 12:25 am    
By John Simons

I have to admit I'm a bit bummed that this has spawned a seperate thread, because I stand behind all the arguments I made last time around, but I'm not going to restate them all again here. Suffice it to say I really think Paul B. is refusing to see the most workable solution. Hell, Aguirre-Sacasa gave us a big fat pointer with that "acne cure" line. Surely that wasn't a coincidence? 

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
The sticking point (well, one of them...) was that the person that told them about the Terry is cited specifically as being the FF's CFO. This is inherently a problem as Johnny is repeatedly cited as CFO from FF3 66 onward (yes, including FF3 512). My thinking (and I think this was John Simons who pointed this out originally) was that Johnny may have appointed a more experienced CFO during the unusual problems in the aftermath of Authoritative Action and, once those were at least partially under control, then Johnny resumed his duties. 
<<<


Actually, my theory is that Johnny quit both his position as CFO and the team in disgust after the death of Ben. That's why he's an auto mechanic for awhile there, and why there's a new CFO in FOUR. After the FF go to heaven, Johnny is back with the team, Ben is back, and he's not angry at Reed anymore. They do what they do in FOUR, but when Reed and Sue announce that they are moving back into the Baxter Building and reviving their fortunes, Johnny agrees to retake the job of CFO.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Nov 2004 07:05 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Ah, yes, Mr. Schultz...expressly referred to as "Fantastic Enterprises' Chief Financial Officer." Fantastic Enterprises? The organization of which Johnny was made CFO in FF3 61 was Fantastic Four, Inc.  
<<<


Possibly one is a subsidiary of the other; possibly it changed name. Companies do that all the time.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 08:26 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
I have to admit I'm a bit bummed that this has spawned a seperate thread, because I stand behind all the arguments I made last time around, but I'm not going to restate them all again here.  
<<<

S'okay. I'm behind you on this one, John. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Hell, Aguirre-Sacasa gave us a big fat pointer with that "acne cure" line. Surely that wasn't a coincidence? 
<<<

Well, I could see it being a conincidence, but it's not likely. And, honestly, it's not that strong of evidence to put FF3 512 on either side of FOUR 12. One could argue that Sue gave Reed the idea for curing acne in FOUR 12, or that Sue was simply referencing what Reed did the last time they needed money way back in FF3 512. It could go either way pretty easily. 

I'm still inclined to place FOUR between FF3 511 and 512, though, for other reasons. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Actually, my theory is that Johnny quit both his position as CFO and the team in disgust after the death of Ben. That's why he's an auto mechanic for awhile there, and why there's a new CFO in FOUR. After the FF go to heaven, Johnny is back with the team, Ben is back, and he's not angry at Reed anymore. They do what they do in FOUR, but when Reed and Sue announce that they are moving back into the Baxter Building and reviving their fortunes, Johnny agrees to retake the job of CFO. 
<<<

And this ties back into the Iron Man thread -- it really doesn't matter what explanation(s) we individually give to the explain small discrepencies between issues. John has one way of looking at it; I have a slightly different take. But, for purposes of the MCP, both are irrelevant. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Nov 2004 09:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
I really think Paul B. is refusing to see the most workable solution. Hell, Aguirre-Sacasa gave us a big fat pointer with that "acne cure" line. Surely that wasn't a coincidence?  
<<<


Huh? I'm actually agreeing with you that FOUR 12 should occur before FF 512 because of "the big fat pointer." I was just suggesting that FOUR may occur a bit further back. "The most workable solution?" Well, I was thinking of putting the Latverian episode closer to FF 512 because the nature of the conversation between Spidey and Johnny in FF 512 made that seem more "workable." I think I'll just mosey on back to that previous thread that proves without a doubt that FOUR occurs after FF 511 (of course, just to give the illusion that I'm not a stubborn, bull-headed, single-minded contrarian  ). 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Possibly one is a subsidiary of the other; possibly it changed name. Companies do that all the time. 
<<<

Hmm. Has there been a reference to the name of the FF's business since FF 512? And if there were interrelated companies run by the FF, could there be different CFOs?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Nov 2004 05:20 pm
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Okay, I've gone back and re-read John Simons' arguments proving that the placement of FOUR 1-12 between FF 511 and 512 is the best solution (or certainly far better than before FF3 68). I found three points, which I'll list here: 

1) Franklin's birthday is referenced in FF 505 as coming up (Sue tells Franklin, "we won't spend your birthday" at Doom's castle), and there's the birthday depicted in FOUR 1. 

2) She-Hulk is wearing a costume in FOUR 1 that we first saw in A3 65. The placement of FOUR between FF 511 and 512 has a better chance of making this choice of garment correct from a continuity perspective. 

3) Johnny is depicted as taking a job as a auto mechanic in FF 509 during a period of time when he's distancing himself from Reed because of Ben's death. It's logical to assume he quit his job as FF Inc.'s CFO, that Reed hired Schultz as CFO, and that Giocometti (who Reed hired as "money manager" either at this point or before this time) used the disruption as an opportunity to embezzle funds during that time. And besides (I'll add), if FOUR had already happened prior to FF 509, wouldn't Johnny have gone back to firefighting instead of working in a garage? 

Am I missing other arguments?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 12:36 am    
By John Simons

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Am I missing other arguments? 
<<<

Well, only that it makes for one extended financial crunch rather than two seperate financial crises in a relatively short amount of time.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2004 07:10 am  
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hey, John, I'll add another point to your argument, if I may... 

In FF 509, Reed notes that he's sold the last of his patents to have the charges against the FF dropped. In FOUR 1, Schultz informs the FF that they are broke because the feds dropped their funding and their money manager ran off with their liquid assets. Well, what about income from Reed's patents? Nothing is mentioned of this. If Reed had sold off all his patents already, then it would make sense for the FF to go find jobs, as they'd have no other source of income. 

By the same token, however, in FF 509 Reed promises after Ben's death that he will never keep secrets from the team again -- no private agendas. That was a hard-earned lesson from the whole Latverian episode. Yet, in FOUR, the whole FF-is-broke scenario turns out to be a secret plan by Reed to give the team normal lives. As revealed in FOUR 12, Sue figured out that this is what Reed was doing, and she didn't get stark-raving upset at Reed for going back on his promise to stop the secret agenda stuff. 

Quick question, John: have you read all issues of FOUR?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2004 01:28 am    
By John Simons

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quick question, John: have you read all issues of FOUR? 
<<<


I haven't, but I was careful to mention from the very beginning that I wasn't reading FOUR beyond issue 2, or the Human Torch series, for that matter. I only picked up 12 because it seemed to offer the answers we were seeking. I fully realize there may be relevant plot points that are eluding me. 

For example, I'm wondering if there is any interaction between the FF and the people of NY in these issues. When you consider that basically Reed took over a foreign country and practically had to be driven out by military force, I don't find it such a stretch to believe that, a few months later, they would still be suffering from a bad rep. So, to me, I feel like the FOUR issues could fit in between, and still for Johnny to comment about their PR problems in 512. 

Of course, if in issues 3-11 of FOUR, New Yorkers are hailing the FF wherever they go and giving them high-fives, that could be a problem...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2004 03:44 am    
By Jim Smith

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Of course, if in issues 3-11 of FOUR, New Yorkers are hailing the FF wherever they go and giving them high-fives, that could be a problem... 
<<<

It would be a problem, but not an insurmountable one. Throughout the FF's PR problems, I've found it hard to buy the idea that everybody hates them for their actions in Latveria. If there are FF fans cheering them on in 4, it's just giving equal time to the ever-faithful. 

The Thunderbolts are getting a surprisingly warm reception from NYC in their new series, so if they have a couple of fans left, surely the FF does too.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2004 07:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I can think of more plot-based arguments to support the notion that FOUR 1-12 makes sense to occur between FF 511 and 512. 

In FF 512, Reed is filing patents by the dozen in an effort to restore their funds. IIRC, after the Latverian episode the FF's funds were frozen, not lost, and Reed sold off his previous patents (thus eliminating a source of new income) in FF 509. In FF 512, Johnny tells Reed that they don't have enough funds to buy some PR. This certainly would be true if FF 512 occurs closely on the heels of FOUR 12, because the available funds were embezzled. (Of course, the FF's funds could still simply be frozen in FF 512.) 

Perhaps more importantly, what about FF Inc.'s employees? As we learned in FOUR 12, Reed could easily have done something to prevent the FF's bankruptcy, but he chose not to because he wanted to give the team a shot at normal workaday lives. What about the people who were employed by FF Inc.? Why would Reed jeopardize their futures by not fighting to keep the business in operation? Perhaps because the business was already faltering because of the fallout from the Latverian episode. The FF's actions in Latveria caused the company's assets to be frozen. We can surmise that folks such as Jian were forced to leave at this point. By the time FOUR 1 occurs, the company may just be holding on with Jed Schultz working in "corporate" ("Fantastic Enterprises") and few others to consider. This would have made it easier to Reed not to fight for the FF's assets. 

Of course, all of these explanations are rationalizations for things we see in the comics. These BTS details are never actually noted in the comics themselves. We might come up with rationalizations for FOUR to occur between FF3 66 (actually HT 12) and FF3 67, too. 

But there are a bunch of things I actually do see in the comics that we either need to accept or dismiss to fit our plot rationalizations -- those are temporal references. 

Tonight I'll try to post my notes about temporal references in FF3 68-FF 517, FOUR 1-12, and HT 1-12. Then we might examine how these could or could not be used to plot the passage of time during this period in the FF's history.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2004 09:52 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Of course, if in issues 3-11 of FOUR, New Yorkers are hailing the FF wherever they go and giving them high-fives, that could be a problem... 
<<<

Nope. None of that. There's some basic acknowledgement that people recognize them on occassion -- Reed in the unemployment line, for example -- but no, but no real hooping and hollering. I think one woman thanks Reed for saving her life a few years earlier, but she doesn't gush about it. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In FF 512, Reed is filing patents by the dozen in an effort to restore their funds. IIRC, after the Latverian episode the FF's funds were frozen, not lost, and Reed sold off his previous patents (thus eliminating a source of new income) in FF 509.  
<<<

Well, to be fair, he also did that after Johnny blew up ESU during DeFalco's tenure, and again after Pier 4 blew up during Pacheco's run. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In FF 512, Johnny tells Reed that they don't have enough funds to buy some PR. This certainly would be true if FF 512 occurs closely on the heels of FOUR 12, because the available funds were embezzled. (Of course, the FF's funds could still simply be frozen in FF 512.) 
<<<

If the funds were frozen, however, they wouldn't be able to obtain money from additional patents, would they? Those assets would be frozen as soon as they accumulated. If you can't access your savings account, it doesn't stop earning interest. Their assets would necessarily need to have been "thawed" for them to earn any money at all. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Perhaps more importantly, what about FF Inc.'s employees? As we learned in FOUR 12, Reed could easily have done something to prevent the FF's bankruptcy, but he chose not to because he wanted to give the team a shot at normal workaday lives. What about the people who were employed by FF Inc.? Why would Reed jeopardize their futures by not fighting to keep the business in operation? Perhaps because the business was already faltering because of the fallout from the Latverian episode. The FF's actions in Latveria caused the company's assets to be frozen. We can surmise that folks such as Jian were forced to leave at this point. By the time FOUR 1 occurs, the company may just be holding on with Jed Schultz working in "corporate" ("Fantastic Enterprises") and few others to consider. This would have made it easier to Reed not to fight for the FF's assets. 
<<<

Excellent point. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
These BTS details are never actually noted in the comics themselves.  
<<<

Well, that's why they're called "behind the scenes" now, isn't it? 

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2004 07:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Okay, here is more information to add to the discussion of the sequence of FF stories. 

Issues #2-11 of Human Torch didnt have a lot of important temporal references, so Ill just pick up with issue #12. I placed these entries in the order in which most of the temporal references seem to make sense. The question is whether FOUR 1-12 belongs between HT 12 and FF3 67 or between FF 511 and 512. Previous postings have suggested BTS explanations for plot developments that support the latter placement, but on-panel temporal references do seem to get messed up in that sequence. Weve had a couple of plot-related points that question the placement of FOUR 1-12 between FF 511 and 512 (Spideys and Johnnys conversation in FF 512, Reeds promise of no more secret agendas), and some discussion about corporate structures and CFOs, but no offerings yet of BTS scenarios that could make sense out of FOUR occurring before FF3 67. 


HUMAN TORCH #12 (1-19) 
One day during college football season (we see a game, not just training). Johnny sports a goatee. Green grass and trees in New York. 

HUMAN TORCH #12 (20-21) 
The day after HT 12 (1-19). 

FOUR #1 (1-6) 
A Saturday, a few months before FOUR 12. It is Franklins 8th birthday, so it must be the same day of the year as FF @6, which was established in Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #5 as occurring in late in the summer vacation between Peter Parkers first and second years in college (so likely August). This birthday party is referenced in FOUR 12. 

FOUR #1 (7-22) 
It is a school day for Franklin and the Pembrooke Academy is open. Valeria is old enough to sit up in a high chair. Green grass and trees and light clothing in New York. 

FOUR #2 
Probably the day after FOUR 2 (7-22), given the newspaper headline. It is a school day at Pembrooke Academy and at Franklins school. Green grass and trees in New York. The narration notes that the night brings the first cold rain of the season and that tomorrow, the leaves in Central Park will start to change colors. 

FOUR #3 
A windy day following three months of oppressive heat in New York. A school day for Franklin. We see green grass and trees but also many trees with autumn leaves; the narration notes a change in the seasons. 

FOUR #4 
It is a school day. Valeria started teething today, and she drinks from a bottle and sleeps in a crib. Autumn leaves on the trees in Manhattan. 

FOUR #5 
One day, probably on a weekend, as Reed, Sue, and Ben take Franklin and his friends camping. We see autumn leaves on trees and someone mentions that its late in the season to be camping in the New Jersey Pine Barrens and suggests that its almost time for snow. 
FOUR #6 
The same night as FOUR 5. We see green grass and leafy trees, but its also just before what is expected to be the first snowfall of the season in New Jersey. 
FOUR #7 
The same night as FOUR 6. It is a few weeks before FOUR 8. We see the first snow of the season in New York and New Jersey, but no accumulation is seen. 

FOUR #8 
One day, a few weeks after FOUR 7. It is a school day at Pembrooke Academy. The recap states that winter blankets Manhattan, and we do see snow on the ground, along with bare trees and trees still featuring autumn colors. Also, the Hudson River is noted as being half-frozen, and this is an important plot point. 
FOUR #9 
The same day as FOUR 8. It is one month before FOUR 10 (9-22). We see snow and bare trees, and the temperature only plummeted a few days ago, making ice on the Hudson still thin in places. 

FOUR #10 (1-8) 
A Saturday night. 

FOUR #10 (9-22) 
One day, shortly after FOUR 10 (1-8). It is one month after FOUR 9 (20-22). Sue tells Alicia that shes had a feeling of dread for the last month. Since it started warming up. (The warmth may be an illusion, or it may indicate a winter thaw). Valeria is looking pretty big here, certainly older than a toddler. 
FOUR #11 
The same day as FOUR 10 (9-22). 
FOUR #12 
The same day as FOUR 11. It is a few months after FOUR 1 (1-6). Full moon. 

FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #67 
One day. We see green trees and warm weather in Georgia. Doom has embraced sorcery over science and he adopts a new armor, so this story must occur after A3 63, which in turn occurs after the Christmas story in IM3 63. 

FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #68 (1p1) 
A Monday. 
FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #68 (1p3) 
A Tuesday, the day after FF3 68 (1p1). 

FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #68 (2p1) 
A Wednesday, the day after FF3 68 (1p3). 

FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #68 (2p3) 
A Thursday, the day after FF3 68 (2p1). 

FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #68 (1p2, 1p4, 2p2) 
Probably the day after FF3 68 (2p3). 
FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #68 (2p4-21) 
The same day as FF3 68 (2p2). It is weeks after FF3 61. Valeria is presumably only a few months old, but she is of an age at which she might be expected to talk, and certainly isnt old enough to be overdue in that respect  shes able to say Doom. Johnny is shown sunbathing in Manhattan, but this isnt necessarily an indication of warm weather, given Johnnys power  all we can conclude is that its sunny. 
FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #69 
The same day as FF3 68 (2-21). 
FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #70 
The same day as FF3 69. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #500 
The same day as FF3 70. It is one week before FF 505 (1-3). Green trees and short sleeves in New York. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #501 
Probably the day after FF 500. Coney Island is open. Warm weather. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #502 (1-19) 
The same day as FF 501. It is warm and green at Coney Island. It is a couple of weeks before FF 503. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #502  FB 
One day, probably a couple of days after FF 502 (1-19). 

FANTASTIC FOUR #502 (20-21) 
The day after FF 502-FB. Ben writes in his journal, noting that this has been a pretty wild month. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #503 (1-16) 
One day. It is warm enough for short sleeves in Manhattan. Full moon. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #503 (17-21) 
The day after FF 503 (1-16). It is a couple of weeks after FF 502 (1-19). Green trees in Latveria. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #504 
The day after FF 503 (17-21). 

FANTASTIC FOUR #505 (1-3p2) 
One day, one week after FF 500. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #505 (3p3-21) 
The day after FF 505 (1-3). Reed promises Franklin that we wont spend your birthday at Dooms castle. We dont know for sure if this is the birthday depicted in FOUR 1 or the following birthday, and we dont know that Franklins birthday is imminent; it may simply be on his mind. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #506 
The day after FF 505 (3-21). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #507 
The same day as FF 506. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #508 (1-20) 
The same day as FF 507. It is six weeks before FF 508 (21-22). Ben dies. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #509 (1-3) 
The same day as FF 508 (1-20). It is six weeks before FF 509 (7-15), and thus five weeks before FF 509 (4-6). 

FANTASTIC FOUR #509 (4-6) 
One day, one week before FF 509 (7-15), and thus five weeks after FF 509 (1-3). 

FANTASTIC FOUR #509 (7-15p4) 
One day. It is one week after FF 509 (4-6) and six weeks after FF 509 (1-3). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #508 (21-22p3) 
The same day as FF 509 (7-15). It is six weeks after FF 508 (1-20). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #508 (22p4) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #509 (15p5-15p6) 
The same day as FF 508 (21-22). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #508 (22p5) 
The same day as FF 508 (22p4). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #509 (15p7-21) 
The same day as FF 509 (22p5). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #510 
The same day as FF 509 (15-21). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #511 
The same day as FF 510. Ben alive again; Reed unscarred. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #512 (1-10) 
One day. The Statue of Liberty is standing, so we need to be aware of the placement of this segment either before its destruction in Magnetos attack of X 147 or after its repair. Noting her sensitivity to cold, Alicia says that its a warm day. Spring finally sprung. Was it last week it was freezing out? 

FANTASTIC FOUR #512 (11-18) 
The warm day after FF 512 (1-10). We see an outdoor water park during its opening weekend. (This doesnt necessarily mean that its the start of summer season, just that its some time during that season.) We see green trees and outdoor water fun. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #513 
The same brutally hot day as FF 512 (11-18). We see green trees at the water park. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #512/2 (2p3) 
On the Friday after FF 512 (2p2), Sue dusts a statue of Namor. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #512/2 (1) 
One day. Special plot note here: Sues complaining that theres been a distance between her and Reed ever since they got back from Latveria. This really wouldnt make sense if we were to place FOUR (with its plot centered around a normal life for the Richardses) between the Latveria episode and this story. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #512/2 (3-4) 
The day after FF 512/2 (2p3). A Saturday. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #513/2 
The same day as FF 512/2 (3-4). 

FANTASTIC FOUR #514 
One day. Green trees in New York. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #515 
The same day as FF 514. It appears to be warm in New York. Full moon. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #516 
The same night as FF 515. Full moon. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #517 
One evening. It is Halloween  we see trick or treaters, but for some reason the trees are still leafy and green. Valeria is a toddler and appears to be about 18 months old here. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #518 
The same night as FF 517. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #519 
The same night as FF 518. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #520 
The same night as FF 519. 

I hope this added information helps.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2004 09:16 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Thanks for taking the time to go through those, Paul. I don't see anything with the temporal references that really help here, though. I think they're all vague enough that it can go either way pretty easily. We've got an undetermined amount of time between FF3 511 and 512, and only vague references prior to that. We could easily drop a couple of months in between those two issues with no real impact on the temporal references. 

Which leaves us with the basic plot points that suggest placing FOUR after FF3 511.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Nov 2004 07:22 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
We could easily drop a couple of months in between those two issues with no real impact on the temporal references.  


Well, let's say we honor two of the more significant temporal references (on the basis of what is shown in the comics) -- Franklin's birthday and Halloween. 

First big caveat: if you buy into the concept of the MU having a calendar (which I realize most folks don't), then you're apt to want to see birthdays and anniversaries occur consistemtly on the same calendar day...or else explain away the birthday or anniversary as something else. In this case, maybe Franklin's "re-birth" day (a celebration of the anniversary of his return to childhood after being Psi-Lord)?? In any case, if we want to maintain the consistency and call a birthday a birthday, then we're going to assign an August date to FOUR 1, based on the chronology laid out in the Indexes. 

Then we have Halloween in FF 517. That gives us two months or so for FOUR 1-12 and FF 512-516 to occur and to somehow fit alongside the whole Disassembled thing. (Working on that whole Avengers chronology from other threads -- Beast's costumes, Tony Stark as cabinet member, She-Hulk timing, etc., etc. is what has me concerned about this particular FF thread.) Locked as we are in August-October, we'd need to dismiss a number of temporal references in FOUR, perhaps most significantly the icy river in FOUR 8-9. And can we place the FF's appearance in A 500-503 during their FOUR period? 

I'm still working on trying to cram FOUR 1-12 into the time slot, and it's been a challenge. And yes, it's a grand indictment of the whole calendar concept, yadda, yadda  I'll keep you posted. Suggestions are welcome. 

I would argue, however, for placing FF 512/2-513/2 before FOUR, given not only Sue's comments about her relationship with Reed, but also that whole thing about teasing Reed in that story with Namor references, which I don't think would have occurred as easily after FOUR 9.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Nov 2004 11:05 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
First big caveat: if you buy into the concept of the MU having a calendar (which I realize most folks don't), then you're apt to want to see birthdays and anniversaries occur consistemtly on the same calendar day...or else explain away the birthday or anniversary as something else. In this case, maybe Franklin's "re-birth" day (a celebration of the anniversary of his return to childhood after being Psi-Lord)?? In any case, if we want to maintain the consistency and call a birthday a birthday, then we're going to assign an August date to FOUR 1, based on the chronology laid out in the Indexes. 
<<<

I think you're putting way too much emphasis on those Indexes. As useful and powerful a tool those were at the time they were written, they are the product of one man, who only looked at a smal portion of the books. He even had to make corrections in later issues, based on additional data he was still analyzing. I think that saying Franklin's birthday is in August because George said so is pretty weak, even if you do buy into the calendar system. 

Now, if we had an in-story reference to Franklin's birthday being in August, that'd be another thing, but it's currently one man's guess based on a cursory analysis of some of the stories available. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Then we have Halloween in FF 517. That gives us two months or so for FOUR 1-12 and FF 512-516 to occur and to somehow fit alongside the whole Disassembled thing. (Working on that whole Avengers chronology from other threads -- Beast's costumes, Tony Stark as cabinet member, She-Hulk timing, etc., etc. is what has me concerned about this particular FF thread.) Locked as we are in August-October, we'd need to dismiss a number of temporal references in FOUR, perhaps most significantly the icy river in FOUR 8-9. And can we place the FF's appearance in A 500-503 during their FOUR period? 
<<<

I was just suggesting that since there are few significant temporal references in FOUR 1-12 and FF3 67-510, we just swap their placements as you've delineated them above. The same amount of time passes between FF3 66 and FF3 511, but we just have a late, mild winter instead of an earlier, mild winter. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I would argue, however, for placing FF 512/2-513/2 before FOUR, given not only Sue's comments about her relationship with Reed, but also that whole thing about teasing Reed in that story with Namor references, which I don't think would have occurred as easily after FOUR 9. 
<<<

Agreed

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Thread 21

Posted: 20 Nov 2004 06:22 pm    Post subject: Closing the Gap page
By SeanCurtin

The only entry that doesn't say "COMPLETE" is ARCHANGEL. Does the MCP need another analysis of that one-shot, or is that just an omission? 

-Sean

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Posted: 20 Nov 2004 06:27 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It's an omission. We have it, and the Second Gap is Closed. 


watching: wisconsin v. iowa

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Thread 22

Posted: 20 Nov 2004 06:14 pm    Post subject: Punisher & Lucifer
By SeanCurtin

The "Lucifer" in PUN2 39 & 40 is actually Belasco. "Lucifer, Reverend" from same is actually 'the Rev' (Reverend Sammy Smith), a Jim Jones knockoff who previously appeared in PUN2 4 & 5. The Rev also appeared in PUN2 37 & 38, and as he was working for Belasco/'Lucifer' at the time, Belasco could get a BTS for those two issues as well. 

Why are the Punisher's appearances in PUN4 listed as a separate character? It's acknowledged in PUN5 1 that that was the real Punisher. At any rate, if that wasn't the Punisher in PUN4 1-4, then it wouldn't be the Punisher in W/P 1-3 either. 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 Nov 2004 12:48 am    
By JLH

SeanCurtin wrote: 
Why are the Punisher's appearances in PUN4 listed as a separate character? It's acknowledged in PUN5 1 that that was the real Punisher. At any rate, if that wasn't the Punisher in PUN4 1-4, then it wouldn't be the Punisher in W/P 1-3 either. 


I don't know why that happened, but I do know I did a correction for the whole ordeal in my analysis of "Born" on the board a few months ago. So whenever that gets added, I assume those entries will be corrected as well.

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Thread 23

Posted: 17 Nov 2004 02:27 pm    Post subject: Marvel solicits: February 2005
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Here's the advance copy via Millarworld - strictly speaking leaked, but they're always right. (And if Marvel really cared, they'd have done something about it over the last eight months.) 

Cancellations:- 
- THOR: SON OF ASGARD is missing from the listings, ending with January's issue #12. 
- MYSTIQUE is cancelled with issue #24. 
- MARVEL AGE HULK seems to be cancelled, and MARVEL AGE SPIDER-MAN and MARVEL AGE FANTASTIC FOUR are both renumbered from issue #1 with the word "TALES" added to the end of each title. Doesn't affect us, though. 

New books: 
- BLACK PANTHER. Yet another stab at an ongoing series. They're giving it a big push, though. 
- YOUNG AVENGERS. The book which nobody seems to be looking forward to, but we're getting it anyway. Ongoing. 
- LIVEWIRES. Six-issue mini. This has been in the works for years, and I'm slightly surprised it's finally coming out. 
- RUNAWAYS. Second ongoing series. 
- DAREDEVIL: REDEMPTION. Six-issue mini. It's by Hine and Gaydos, who are fairly reliable, so it might actually ship... 
- SHANNA THE SHE-DEVIL. The Frank Cho book which has been in the works for ages. Solicited as an ongoing title, but I'm pretty sure this is meant to be a mini. 
- X-FORCE: SHATTERSTAR. Three-issue mini replacing X-FORCE, which was apparently a six-issue mini after all. It's still Liefeld, though.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Nov 2004 04:49 pm    
By John Simons

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
- BLACK PANTHER. Yet another stab at an ongoing series. They're giving it a big push, though. 
<<<

"The Wakandan super hero is back with Hollywood heavyweight Hudlin (HOUSE PARTY, BOOMERANG) and fan favorite Romita Jr. (WOLVERINE, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN), teaming up to deliver a new ongoing series thats sure to excite true believers and the hip hop faithful." 

Blech. Should I vomit now, or wait til I get home? 

At least it will look pretty... 


Quote: 
>>>
LIVEWIRES. Six-issue mini. This has been in the works for years, and I'm slightly surprised it's finally coming out.  
<<<

I love Adam Warren, but if it took so long to be produced, he darn well should've drawn it, too! 


Quote: 
>>>
SHANNA THE SHE-DEVIL. The Frank Cho book which has been in the works for ages. Solicited as an ongoing title, but I'm pretty sure this is meant to be a mini.  
<<<

Buyer beware: this was meant to be a mature readers series, but Marvel reportedly got cold feet and ordered Cho to go back and drawn bikinis over all the bare breastage. Really.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 21 Nov 2004 12:24 am    
By Andy Holcombe

John Simons wrote:
>>>
Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
SHANNA THE SHE-DEVIL. The Frank Cho book which has been in the works for ages. Solicited as an ongoing title, but I'm pretty sure this is meant to be a mini.  
<<<

Buyer beware: this was meant to be a mature readers series, but Marvel reportedly got cold feet and ordered Cho to go back and drawn bikinis over all the bare breastage. Really. 
<<<


I'm pretty sure this is also non-canon. At least based on every time I've read Frank Cho's comments on the series.

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Posted: 21 Nov 2004 04:19 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

In case anyone wanted to see the covers to the books, here's the solicitations available from Toonzone.net: 

http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2005-02/marvel.php 

One thing that caught my eye: 

Marvel Team-up #5 says this is "Part 5 (of 6)." Except that this isn't a 6 issue story arc. It's a bunch of single issues, (some stories are spread over two issues). So does this mean that Issue 6 will be the last? (Oh please, oh please, oh please!!!)
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 24

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 01:51 am    Post subject: Help needed?
By david

Paul B - do you need any help with the following titles: 
Astonishing X-Men V3, Excalibur V3, Marvel Knights Spider-Man, Uncanny X-Men, X-Men V2 & X-Men Unlimited?

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 06:55 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Got 'em all covered, David. Thanks for asking!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 08:40 pm    
By david

Can't wait for the reload calendar - i.e anything from Uncanny 443 onwards! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 09:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I'm still sorting out a number of interrelated issues (the FF's chronology, a revised Avengers chronology and Bendis stuff, plus adjusting X-appearances -- see other threads for details). And I'm waiting on a few more analyses, so it may still be a while...especially since it looks like it comics due out in a couple of months may provide major clues. Right now, my copy of Year 22 of the calendar is a bit dissected, with various drafts of revised chronologies in several different documents. I really am gaining a fond appreciation for how interconnected the MU is. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 25

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 12:07 pm    Post subject: New content: "Fatal Attractions" TPB.
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Just bought the "X-Men: Fatal Attractions" TPB, and I can report that it contains -- as far as I can see -- one new line. 

The practice at the time, for padding out page counts to make 2-page spreads fall correctly, was to re-make one page into two by messing with the panels and enlarging some artwork. And when they did this for UX #304, they added a new line into one of the enlarged panels: 

Without the page count here in front of me, it's the panel just before Colossus wallops Bishop from behind. He's basically walking up behind him -- and when the panel was enlarged into a full page, someone added the line "No, Bishop!" 

So -- yeah. Technically the TPB has added material. 

It's at this point that I start to wonder exactly how much weight added material in reprints carries...  

-Jeph! 
(Hey, Ant-Man and Dave Hall. G'wan out and buy it!!)

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 04:06 pm    
By Ant-Man

jephyork wrote: 
Hey, Ant-Man and Dave Hall. G'wan out and buy it!! 


Well, one of my local shops is having a 50% off TPBs sale, so I just might. 

That'll show you, Jeph! 

_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 09:43 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

50% off TPBs? Jeez. Wanna go shopping for me again? 

-Jeph!

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Thread 26

Posted: 13 Nov 2004 12:36 pm    Post subject: Man-Thing & Defenders
By scottandrewhutchins

Omitted from Man-Thing's chronology is FF 187-FB. This takes place just after IM @3, but could easily have been confused with being a recap. Man-Thing appears in only one panel, but Klaw is also in that panel, and Klaw did not appear in IM@ 3. 

On the chronlogies for Dr. Strange, Valkyrie, Hulk, and Nighthawk, GSDEF 3 is placed between DEF 21 and GSDEF 4. It seems to take place before DEF20, and has an earlier cover date, but that would also put it before MTIO6, as MTIO 7 with Valkyrie begins the morning after MTIO6 with Dr. Strange, and DEF 20 immediately after MTIO 7, and DEF21 immediately after DEF 20 (Thing is departing on the splash page). I suspect its earlier status because Sub-Mariner appears in it, and is absent in the others, Valkyrie appears much more mysterious, suggesting what is revealed in the aforementioned issues has not been revealed yet. Also, MTIO 8 is set on Christmas, and GSDEF 4 on January 4, and as they're all by the same writer, it seems to make sense that GSDEF 3 is earlier.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2004 03:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
On the chronlogies for Dr. Strange, Valkyrie, Hulk, and Nighthawk, GSDEF 3 is placed between DEF 21 and GSDEF 4. It seems to take place before DEF20, and has an earlier cover date, but that would also put it before MTIO6, as MTIO 7 with Valkyrie begins the morning after MTIO6 with Dr. Strange, and DEF 20 immediately after MTIO 7, and DEF21 immediately after DEF 20 (Thing is departing on the splash page).  
<<<

George Olshevsky's Marvel Comics Index #3 would agree with you. It suggests placement of GSDEF 3 between DEF 19 and 20 (and thus between DEF 19 and M/TIO 6). The only problem with this is a reference in DEF 20 that the events of DEF 18 occurred "yesterday." I don't believe that allows enough time for GSDEF 3 to be squeezed between DEF 19 and M/TIO 6. That would force GSDEF 3 either before DEF 17 or after DEF 21. 


Quote: 
>>>
I suspect its earlier status because Sub-Mariner appears in it, and is absent in the others, 
<<<

Namor would have to return to the group regardless, because he hadn't been in the Defenders since DEF 14. So it really doesn't matter when he returns for GSDEF 3. 


Quote: 
>>>
Valkyrie appears much more mysterious,  
<<<

Not quite sure what you mean by this... 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, MTIO 8 is set on Christmas, and GSDEF 4 on January 4, and as they're all by the same writer, it seems to make sense that GSDEF 3 is earlier. 
<<<

Yes, I agree that M/TIO 8 occurs before GSDEF 4. But was this a justification for placement of GSDEF 3, or a completely separate point?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 10:25 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

Quote: 
>>>
On the chronlogies for Dr. Strange, Valkyrie, Hulk, and Nighthawk, GSDEF 3 is placed between DEF 21 and GSDEF 4. It seems to take place before DEF20, and has an earlier cover date, but that would also put it before MTIO6, as MTIO 7 with Valkyrie begins the morning after MTIO6 with Dr. Strange, and DEF 20 immediately after MTIO 7, and DEF21 immediately after DEF 20 (Thing is departing on the splash page).  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>1
George Olshevsky's Marvel Comics Index #3 would agree with you. It suggests placement of GSDEF 3 between DEF 19 and 20 (and thus between DEF 19 and M/TIO 6). The only problem with this is a reference in DEF 20 that the events of DEF 18 occurred "yesterday." I don't believe that allows enough time for GSDEF 3 to be squeezed between DEF 19 and M/TIO 6. That would force GSDEF 3 either before DEF 17 or after DEF 21. 
<<<

The only "yesterday" reference in DEF 20 that I recall is to MTIO 6. 


Quote: 
>>>
I suspect its earlier status because Sub-Mariner appears in it, and is absent in the others, 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Namor would have to return to the group regardless, because he hadn't been in the Defenders since DEF 14. So it really doesn't matter when he returns for GSDEF 3. 
<<<

True, but he doesn't appear anywhere else in Gerber's run on the title. 


Quote: 
>>>
Valkyrie appears much more mysterious,  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Not quite sure what you mean by this...  
<<<

As though her origin has not been revealed yet, as it is in MTIO 7 and DEF 20. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, MTIO 8 is set on Christmas, and GSDEF 4 on January 4, and as they're all by the same writer, it seems to make sense that GSDEF 3 is earlier. 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Yes, I agree that M/TIO 8 occurs before GSDEF 4. But was this a justification for placement of GSDEF 3, or a completely separate point? 
<<<

It seems relevant when we're discussing two comics by the same writer whose stories intwertwined for multiple issues.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 06:56 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Scottandrewhutchins said: 
>>>
The only "yesterday" reference in DEF 20 that I recall is to MTIO 6.  
<<<

Defenders #20, page 7, panel 2 -- 
Van Nyborg's flunkie sees Val and thinks, "Van Nyborg didn't even believe me when I told him I'd spotted her back in town yesterday*." The editorial footnote reads "*Defenders #18 -- L.W." 


Scottandrewhutchins said: 
>>>
As though her origin has not been revealed yet, as it is in MTIO 7 and DEF 20.  
<<<

I still don't get it. How do you act or appear as if your origin has not been revealed yet?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 08:50 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

Quote: 
>>>
As though her origin has not been revealed yet, as it is in MTIO 7 and DEF 20. 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
I still don't get it. How do you act or appear as if your origin has not been revealed yet? 
<<<


Because she didn't know it herself.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 09:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

So you're saying that there's conclusive evidence in GSDEF 3 that Valkyrie is unaware of her origin? The closest we come to any kind of personal reflection on Val's part in GSDEF 3 is her thought, "I have been so preoccupied with my own problems of late...I have had little time to even think of Kyle--" Couldn't that preoccupation with problems refer to M/TIO 6-7 and DEF 20-21, which the MCP has placed before GSDEF 3? In fact, in DEF 21, Val is so preoccupied with the discovery of her life as Barbara Norriss that she doesn't even notice Kyle's affection for her until Strange points it out. This seems to support the notion that her reflection of that preoccupation in GSDEF 3 occurs after DEF 21.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 27

Posted: 24 Nov 2004 03:35 am    Post subject: Quasar #50
By Ethain

I'm not sure how to place Quasar #50 in relation with Infinity Crusade, anyone can help?

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Nov 2004 06:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

As far as Quasar issues go, I have Infinity Crusade between Quasar #53 and #54.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 28

Posted: 19 Nov 2004 07:48 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four #520 flashbacks
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

This week's issue of FF shows two flashbacks. 

Flashback #1: 
Appearances by: Sue Storm, Johnny Storm 
Johnny is living with his sister, who is taking care of him. It is Mother's Day just before Sue Storm's high school graduation, so we might assume that she's about 18. (According to FOUR 1, Sue was twenty at the time of FF 1.) Any idea about placement? 

Flashback #2: 
Appearances by: Thing, Human Torch II, Alicia Masters 
Ben is paying a visit to Alicia at her apartment. Ben is nervous about the situation; it appears to be a first date. With prompting from Johnny outside the window, Ben gives Alicia a first kiss. 
My guess is that Ben and Alicia appear here between FF 8 and FF 9 and that Johnny is here between FF 8 and ST 103.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Nov 2004 08:34 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Flashback #2: 
Appearances by: Thing, Human Torch II, Alicia Masters 
Ben is paying a visit to Alicia at her apartment. Ben is nervous about the situation; it appears to be a first date. With prompting from Johnny outside the window, Ben gives Alicia a first kiss. 
My guess is that Ben and Alicia appear here between FF 8 and FF 9 and that Johnny is here between FF 8 and ST 103. 
<<<


I haven't yet read FF 520, but based on your description, I think I'd place it a tad later. 

In FF 9, the narration mentions that Ben and Alicia are friends, a relationship backed up by Alicia herself, who refers to Ben as her "dear friend." I really don't get the feeling here that they've engaged in any kissing so far. 

In FF 10, Ben is *very* protective of Alicia--much more than Johnny or Sue--when they mistakenly believe that Dr. Doom (actually Reed) has "attacked" Alicia. Whether this is a sign that Ben and Alicia's relationship has "progressed", or whether Ben is just beginning to develop romantic feelings for Alicia, or even whether Ben is just naturally more protective of a blind sculptress is open to interpretation. 

FF 12 is the first time we see them on a date, at least until now. During the date, Alicia refers to Ben as "my darling," so this is probably not their first date. 

I think a better placement would be either between 9 and 10, or shortly after 10. 


watching: sabrina, down under

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Posted: 19 Nov 2004 10:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I think a better placement would be either between 9 and 10, or shortly after 10.  
<<<

I'm just going by Marvel Index descriptions of plots, so I'll defer to your conclusion. If it's between FF 9 and 10, then we'll need to place Johnny in the flashback either before or after ST 104.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2004 09:40 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Flashback #1: 
Appearances by: Sue Storm, Johnny Storm 
Johnny is living with his sister, who is taking care of him. It is Mother's Day just before Sue Storm's high school graduation, so we might assume that she's about 18. (According to FOUR 1, Sue was twenty at the time of FF 1.) Any idea about placement? 
<<<

I've got this set after Before the Fantastic Four: The Storms (since the Storms are still living with their aunt in that series) but before the flashback in FF 233. There it mention that it's "months" before the FF's origin, which would mean that Sue is probably already 19 or 20 by that point, not the presumed 18 she would be in FF3 520 FB. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Flashback #2: 
Appearances by: Thing, Human Torch II, Alicia Masters 
Ben is paying a visit to Alicia at her apartment. Ben is nervous about the situation; it appears to be a first date. With prompting from Johnny outside the window, Ben gives Alicia a first kiss. 

My guess is that Ben and Alicia appear here between FF 8 and FF 9 and that Johnny is here between FF 8 and ST 103. 
<<<

I have it immediately after FF 9. In that issue, Alicia is noted as being "Ben's blind friend" whereas in FF 10, she's referred to as his "loved one." Clearly, the relationship advanced somewhat between those issues, more than between FF 8 and 9.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Nov 2004 12:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks for the suggestions. To nail down exact placements in the MCP... 

Would Sue appear in the first FF 520-FB before or after FF 271-FB, the flashback in which Sue and Reed encounter Gormuu? It seems like the former to me. 

And would the second FF 520-FB occur: between FF 9 and FF@ 1/2 & ASM 1/2; between FF@ 1/2 & AS 1/2M and ST 104; or between ST 104 and FF 10? It may not make a big difference, but we will have to place it somewhere.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 08:33 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Would Sue appear in the first FF 520-FB before or after FF 271-FB, the flashback in which Sue and Reed encounter Gormuu? It seems like the former to me. 
<<<

Definitely before. The Gormuu incident was while Reed was already building the Pocket Rocket, and was what caused the government to cut his funding. 

An omission still in the MCP, I'll note too, is the framing sequence from WI #42 that puts Sue in college briefly where Reed is a GA. That would clearly occur after FF3 520 FB, but before FF 271 FB. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And would the second FF 520-FB occur: between FF 9 and FF@ 1/2 & ASM 1/2; between FF@ 1/2 & AS 1/2M and ST 104; or between ST 104 and FF 10? It may not make a big difference, but we will have to place it somewhere. 
<<<

I'm torn here. 

On one hand, it's Doom that makes reference to Alicia being Ben's "loved one" in FF 10, which would suggest that their relationship has gone on at least long enough for word to leak out about it... suggesting an earlier placement. On the other hand, we've got Johnny's "outing" as the Human Torch in ST 104. Since he's casually lounging outside, in uniform in FF3 520 FB, this would suggest a later placement. 

Maybe we go after ST 104 and we could just say that Doom has really good intel?

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 08:50 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Okay, so to recap proposed additions to the MCP... 

Human Torch II 
BFF:S 3 
*FF 520-FB 
FF 233-FB 
... 
ST 104 
*FF 520-FB 
FF 10 

Invisible Woman 
BFF:S 3 
*FF 520-FB 
*WI 42 
FF 271-FB 

Masters, Alicia 
FF 9 
*FF 520-FB 
FF 10 

Thing 
ASM 1/2 
*FF 520-FB 
FF 10 

Does that look right?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 08:18 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Strictly speaking, that should be FF3 520-FB, but yeah.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 08:37 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It should? 

Personally, I like to think that the re-numbered books have reverted to volume 1. Like Marvel has "cancelled" volume 3 and restarted publishing on volume 1. 

I know, strictly speaking you CAN'T do that -- once a "volume two" begins, you can't really go back to "volume one" -- but Marvel doesn't seem to care. The way they're treating the cover numbers, they seems to be saying "oh, all three volumes were one big series all along." 

So hey, if they can ignore the "rules" of publishing and numbering, so can we... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 09:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Personally, I like to think that the re-numbered books have reverted to volume 1. Like Marvel has "cancelled" volume 3 and restarted publishing on volume 1.  
<<<


That's my feeling, too. If they're going back to original numbering, that's a reflection of vol. 1, not vol. 3, convention.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Nov 2004 07:10 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Personally, I like to think that the re-numbered books have reverted to volume 1. Like Marvel has "cancelled" volume 3 and restarted publishing on volume 1.  
<<<

That's my feeling, too. If they're going back to original numbering, that's a reflection of vol. 1, not vol. 3, convention. 
<<<

Well, strictly speaking, like Jeph said, you can't backtrack. Once you've done a vol. 2, you can't go back to vol. 1 and still allow subscriptions via the postal service. Marvel still allows subscriptions and, thus, should not legally be able to revert to vol. 1. They can cancel the current volume, and start it up again down the road, only provided that there wasn't an intervening volume in the meantime. 

Fortunately for them, this is a seldom checked regulation.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Nov 2004 07:56 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Seeing as they've NEVER been too good about correctly labelling volume numbers in their indicia -- and since they recently dropped volume numbering altogether -- I'd say for MCP purposes we can call the books whatever we want to. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Nov 2004 10:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I'd say for MCP purposes we can call the books whatever we want to.  
<<<

I'm with Jeph on this one. The MCP can code the books any way we'd like. I just think it's easier to drop the issue number from the code when there's a renumbering like this. And apparently Russ has already adopted this policy in the MCP, as I've noticed from a quick check of Mr. Fantastic's listing.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 29

Posted: 25 Nov 2004 12:38 am    Post subject: CA5 #1-Flashback
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Anyone want to take a guess at where the flashback with the Red Skull and the Russian General goes? 

I'm of the opinion that this is after the events of X-men Annual 1999...In real life, that was 5 years ago, which matches the narrative caption which reads, (conveniently enough): "5 years ago"
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 30

Posted: 24 Nov 2004 01:33 pm    Post subject: JLA/Avengers
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Hey, Russ -- 

What's the status of JLA/Avengers WRT the MCP? Do we need those books analyzed still, or are they all set and just haven't been uploaded yet? 

Related follow-up question: How do we list all the Green Lanterns within the MCP? The way the Green Lantern Corps operates, there are any number of GLs at any one time, many of which appeared simultaneously. Which means that the notations "Green Lantern I/Alan Scott", "Green Lantern II/Hal Jordan", "Green Lantern III/John Stewart", etc. aren't really applicable. Should we maybe just list them as "Green Lantern/Kyle Rayner", "Green Lantern/Branwilla", "Green Lantern/Guy Gardner"...? 

Related follow-up #2: Captain Marvel. We've already established several Captain Marvel's within the MU, but the DCU has it's own Captain Marvel (Shazam is actually the name of the wizard who gave him his powers). Do we list DC's Captain Marvel as #1, and bump everyone else up a number or should we have some other notation to indicate he's a DC character and not a MU one? We also have similar issues with Hobgoblin and Kismet. 

Also, I've got -- to the best of my knowledge -- the most comprehensive list of all the character appeances currently online, but I believe the slipcase edition that came out recently lists everyone as defined by writer Kurt Busiek. I think I got everyone in my list, but does anyone have the slipcase version to make sure we have a complete list?

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Nov 2004 01:48 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I have them. If anyone else wants to post an analysis for everyone else's benefit, they're welcome to, but I don't need it. 

As for DC characters, their listings here wouldn't serve any purpose, chronologically. I'd rather let the guys over at the DC Chronology Project handle that end. I assume they're letting us handle the Marvel side. 


watching: buffy the vampire slayer

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Posted: 25 Nov 2004 12:35 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Is the DC Chronology Project even still up and running? I thought it had closed down, (cause trying to chronologize DC comics is pointless)!  *Couldn't resist taking a potshot at DC chronology....* 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2004 09:15 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It hasn't "closed down", although their updates page indicates they haven't updated in almost three years. Whether that's accurate or not, I don't know. 

In any case, it would be their responsibility/perogative to place the DC characters. 


watching: rutgers v. connecticutt

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Posted: 25 Nov 2004 10:36 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Two thoughts, then... 

1) I thought we were citing all named characters that show up in Marvel's continuity. Wouldn't that include all the DC folks from JLA/Avengers since we've determined that the series is canon from the MU perspective? 

2) If we're limiting it to Marvel characters only, shouldn't we remove the notations for Clark Kent, Lois Lane, etc.?

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2004 01:05 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Clark Kent and Lois Lane are just the MU-Earth in-joke versions of those characters, as far as I know. It's not the same thing as giving incomplete listings to visitors from foreign continuities.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 31

Posted: 04 Mar 2004 09:52 pm    Post subject: Kull in red font? If you want, a nice chronology of Kull app
By Scathach80

I noticed that quite a few letters in the K section are in red font. Any particular reason why? 

Anyway, I see that Kull has started to have an entry. He has many fewer appearances than Conan, so that might be feasible. In any event, a good Kull chronology appears in Conan Saga#97. I reproduce the info here for readers of the board as a reference for the far future: 

Conan Saga#97 also features a Kull chronology: 
SSOC#190/2 
SSOC#191/2 
SSOC#193/2 
Kull: Vale of Shadows-FB 
SSOC#196/2 
SSOC#197/2 
SSOC#198/2 
SSOC#199/2 
Kull the Conqueror I#1(fb)~SSoC#3~SSoC#202 
SSOC#229 
SSOC#230 
SSOC#231 
SSOC#232 
SSOC#233/2~CTB I#37-FB-BTS 
SSoC#152 
Kull the Conqueror III 3-FB 
SSOC#125 
SSOC 215 
SSOC 122 
Kull: Vale of the Shadows (fb) 
SSOC 138 
Kull I#1-2 
Monsters on the Prowl#16 
Marvel Team-Up I#112 
Kull I#3 
Conan the Barbarian I#52 (fb) 
Kull I#4 
SSOC 2 
Kull I#5-7 
Creatures on The Loose#10 
SSOC 23 
Kull I#8-10 
SSOC 55/4 
SSOC 34 
Conan the Barbarian I#10 
Kull I#11-15 
Kull and the Barbarians#2-3 
SSOC 9 
Kull I#16-29 
Marvel Preview#19 
Bizarre Adventures#26 
Kull II#1-2 
Kull III#1-10 
SSOC 42/3 (fb) 
SSOC 42/3-44/3 
Conan the Barbarian I#67-68 
SSOC 120/-121/2 
SSOC 132/2 
SSOC 135/2 
SSOC 124/2 
SSOC 125/2 
SSOC#128/2 
SSOC#133/2 
SSOC#139/2 
SSOC#145/2 
SSOC#140 
SSOC#148 
SSOC#149 
SSOC#159 
SSOC#213 
SSOC#150 
SSOC#151 
SSOC#152 
SSOC#158/SSOC#215 
SSOC#161 
Kull: Vale of the Shadows (fb) 
SSOC#165 
SSOC#182 
SSOC#169 
SSOC#172 
SSOC#183 
SSOC#119 
SSOC#126 
SSOC#127 
Kull: Vale of the Shadows (fb) 
SSOC#129 
SSOC#130 
SSOC#136 
SSOC#134 
SSOC#147 
Conan: The Ravagers Out of Time 
SSOC 226/1 
SSOC 226/2 

Highly uncertain chronology: 
The chronology in Conan Saga#97 was quite nice, but it missed a few Conan flashbacks to Kull's life that revealed previously untold information. 
It also missed one Doctor Strange flashback to Kull's life! 

Doctor Strange III#11/2~Conan the Barbarian I#245 (fb) 
both tell the origin of Varnae, the first vampire. (Varnae tells his origin to Conan in that latter issue-yup, Varnae met Conan.) Varnae, already dying, volunteered to become a vampire, created through the Darkhold by pre-cataclysm Atlanteans to fight their enemy Kull, after the Conquerer's slaying of Thulsa Doom. 
Kull is shown slaying Thulsa Doom. Apparently, this was intended as Kull's last battle with Thulsa Doom. So, it must follow the battles that Kull had with Thulsa Doom seen in his own stories. 

SSOC 186/1: 
features a flashback to Kull's battles with Ohris Dehjmal. This was a recurring enemy of Kull from his Savage Sword of Conan back-ups, and in this issue of Savage Sword, he faces Conan in the main story. I cannot recall whether the Savage Sword of Conan#186 story features any new info in its Kull flashback. 

Conan the Barbarian I#199 (fb)/Conan Annual#12 (fb) both tell the following story, with the annual giving more detail: Thulsa Doom allied himself with the Squire Sedrick in a plot against Valusia. After several months of planning, Thulsa gave Sedrick the power to summon an army of demons into Kull's throne room. Kull, Brule, and members of the Black Legion fought off the demons, but in the process, Maxelle, Sedrick's master was slain. Thulsa Doom's involvement was exposed, and his plot foiled. However, as punishment, Thulsa transformed Sedrick into an immortal cat. 
These stories would have to precede Kull's battle with Thulsa Doom shown in Doctor Strange III#11/2~Conan the Barbarian I#245. 

Conan the Barbarian Annual#8: Kull appears in a flashback at the start of this issue. It was new info. 

Uncanny X-Men Annual#13/3

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Posted: 04 Mar 2004 10:44 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Quote: 
>>>
I noticed that quite a few letters in the K section are in red font. Any particular reason why? 
<<<


That'll be fixed with the next update. In deference to our color blind visitors, we're replacing the red font with braces.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2004 10:49 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Hey, that's a pretty good listing of Kull's chronology. Though I just metioned in another thread that Conan's no longer considered canon technically, it still would be nice to have chronologies written up for all of the major Robert E. Howard characters, (after all, the 2099 isn't considered canon, yet I think we're working on mapping out all the appearances in those titles...). 

Anyway, as I recall, Red Sonja's chronology is listed in Conan Saga #96, (which I can't seem to find at this time). You think you could do a chronology mapping out for her, Scathach? 

What I'd eventually like to see is listings for all the major heroes and villians, including: Conan, Red Sonja, Belit, Valeria, King Kull, Solomon Kane, Thulsa Doom, and Thoth Amon...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 11 Mar 2004 09:52 am    Post subject: Red Sonja and Solomon Kane Chronology
By Scathach80
 
http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=712&s=2a5fbb298bfd2133c85a06e77f602395 


http://www.marvunapp.com/master/ 
RED SONJA of the Hyborean era  Hyrkanian swordswoman, worshipped Mitra, Tarim, Erlik, & Scathach?, swore not to love any man who couldnt defeat her in combat 
-originally written in the 16th Century as Red Sonya 
--(g)"Magic Carpet" (Jan1934); Conan the Barbarian I#23 (Savage Sword of Conan#78/2(fb), Kull and the Barbarians#3, Marvel Feature II#1, Conan the Barbarian#23,24, Savage Sword of Conan#1/2, CtB#42, 48, SSC#1, SSC12, Savage Sword of Conan#45/4, CtB#43,44, 48, Kull and the Barbarians#2, Marvel Feature II#6, CtB#66,67, MarvFeat#7, SSC78/2, 194/2,195/2, 207/2-210/2, CtB249, SSC144, 223/2, 224/2, 230/2, 226-232, 23, 23/3 
Conan the King# 

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/hosted/adil...sonja/sonja.htm 
Kull & the Barbarians 3 (origin story); also Savage Sword of Conan 78 (same story, different artist) "The Day of the Sword" 
Conan the Barbarian 23 (Red Sonja's first appearance) "The Shadow of the Vulture" 
Conan the Barbarian 24 "The Song of Red Sonja" 
Marvel Feature 1 "Red Sonja" 
Savage Sword of Conan 153 "Phantasm" 
Savage Sword of Conan 187 "Red Sonja Quells the Song of the Siren" 
Savage Sword of Conan 1 "Curse of the Undead Man" 
Conan the Barbarian 43 "Tower of Blood" 
Conan the Barbarian 44 "Of Flame and the Fiend" 
Red Sonja (series 3) 3 "Seige" (flashback portion only) 
Conan the Barbarian 48 "Episode" 
Kull and the Barbarians 2 "Red Sonja, She Devil with a Sword" 
Marvel Feature 1 "The Temple of Abomination" 
Savage Sword of Conan 78 "The Day of the Sword" 
Marvel Feature 6 "Beware the Sacred Sons of Set" 
Conan the Barbarian 66 "Daggers and Death Gods" 
Conan the Barbarian 67 "Talons of the Man Tiger" 
Marvel Feature 7 "The Battle of the Barbarians" 
Conan the Barbarian 68 "Of Once and Future Kings" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 1 "The Blood of the Unicorn" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 2 "The Demon of the Maze" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 3 "The Games of Gita" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 4 "The Lake of the Unknown" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 5 "Master of the Bells" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 6 "The Singing Tower" 
Savage Sword of Conan "Wizards of the Black Sun" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 7 "Throne of Blood" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 8 "Vengeance of the Golden Circle" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 9 "Chariot of the Fire Stallions" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 10 "Red Lace" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 11 "Sightless in a Strange Land" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 12 "Ashes and Emblems" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 13 "Shall Skranos Fall?" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 14 "An Evening of the Border" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 15 "The Tomb of Three Dead Kings" 
Conan the Barbarian 115 "A War of Wizards" 
Marvel Super Special 9 " Day of the Red Judgement" 
Red Sonja (Series 2) 1 "The Blood that Binds" 
Red Sonja (Series 2) 2 "The Sea that Steals" 
Savage Sword of Conan 225 "Valeria of the Red Brotherhood" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 2 "Blood Debt" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 3 "Siege" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 4 "Lassusar Must Die" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 8 "The Queen of Ice and Blood" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 9 "The Queen of Hearts" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 10 "Strangers" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 11 "Buried Alive" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 12 "Descent" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 13 "The Demon's Tooth" 
Conan the Barbarian 195 "Blood of Ages" 
Conan the Barbarian 196 "The Beast" 
Conan the Barbarian 197 "Stand" 
Conan the Barbarian 198 "The River" 
Conan the Barbarian 199 "Revelation in the Mists" 
Conan Annual 12 "Legion of the Dead" 
Conan the Barbarian 200 "The Fall of Acheron" 
Conan the Barbarian 240 "Goblin" 
Conan the Barbarian 205 "Necropolis" 
Conan the Barbarian 241 "All Roads Lead to Zamora" 
Conan the Barbarian 242 "They Came to Castle Zukala" 
Conan the Barbarian 243 "Dawn and Death Gods" 
Conan the Barbarian 244 "Fiends of the Flaming Mountains" 
Conan the Barbarian 245 "Empire of the Undead" 
Conan the Barbarian 246 "Chaos in Khoraja" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Conan the Barbarian 247 "The Sword that Conquers All" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Conan the Barbarian 248 "The Peril and the Prophecy" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Conan the Barbarian 249 "Red Wind" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Conan the Barbarian 250 "Chaos Beneath Kuthchemes" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Savage Sword of Conan 207 "Diverging Paths" 
Savage Sword of Conan 208 "All in the Game" 
Savage Sword of Conan 209 "Battles Lost and Won" 
Savage Sword of Conan 210 "End of the Road" 
Savage Sword of Conan 229 "A Bride for Varitra" 
Savage Sword of Conan 192 "Red Sonja on the Road of Kings" 
Savage Sword of Conan 230-233 "The Ring of Ikribu" 
Conan: The Ravagers Out of Time (Graphic Novel) 
Savage Sword of Conan 223 "The Many Mirrors of Tuzan Thune" 
Savage Sword of Conan 224 "Dragons of the World's Dawn" 
Savage Sword of Conan 226 "Of Kings and Cataclysms" 
Savage Sword of Conan 227 "Days of the World's Ending" 
Savage Sword of Conan 228 "Back From Time's Abyss" 
Savage Sword of Conan 229 "Assault on Acheron" 
Savage Sword of Conan 230 "The Fall of Python" 
Savage Sword of Conan 144 "The Waiting Doom" 
Savage Sword of Conan 145 "Feast of the Stag" 
Savage Sword of Conan 179 "Fury of the Iron Damsels" 
Conan the King 28 "Call of the Wild" 
Marvel Team-Up I#79 of course, comes last, as her ghost returns from the dead 

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Posted: 11 Mar 2004 09:58 am    Post subject: Solomon Kane chronology
By Scathach80

The Solomon Kane Comics Chronology 
by Fred Blosser 

TITLE SK SS CS OTHER CREATORS 
Skulls in the Stars REH (8 pages) MU-1 RT RS 
The Right Hand of Doom REH SS-13 CS-17 DM SG 
Red Shadows REH 
The Mark of Kane (I) SK-1 MP-33 RT HC 
Fangs of the Gorilla God (II) MP-34 RT HC 
A Rattle of Bones REH SS-18 CS-25 RT HC 
The Castle of the Devil REH SS-19 CS-30 DG AKG ST 
The Moon of Skulls REH SS-34, 37, 39 CS-42-45 DG DW BY 
The One Black Stain REH SS-62 DW 
Blades of the Brotherhood REH SK-3 SS-33 CS-41 DG DW DV 
The Hills of the Dead REH 
The Hills of the Dead (I) SK-5 KB-2 RT AW NA 
Into the Silent City (II) SK-5 KB-3 RT AW PM 
Hawk of Basti REH unadapted 
Wings in the Night REH SK-6 SS-53-54 DG DW 
The Footfalls Within REH MV-19 DG WM SG 
The Return of Sir Richard Grenville REH SS-41 RT DW 
The Children of Asshur REH unadapted 
Death's Black Riders REH 
Death's Dark Riders (I) 
Conan app. SS-219 RT CMN 
Death's Dark Tower (II) 
Conan app. SS-220 RT CMN 
Solomon Kane's Homecoming (poem) REH SK-6 SS-20 CS-18 RT VR RN 

Unknown Chronology 
The Silver Beast beyond Torkertown SS-14 CS-36 DM MZ 
The Dragon at Castle Frankenstein SS-22 CS-16 DG ST 
Cold Hands of Death SS-25 CS-20 DG SG DC 
The Castle of the Undead CS-31 DL-3, DA-1(r), Dracula RT AW Crusty 
Retribution in Blood SS-26 CS-18 Dracula DG DW 
Shattered Innocence SS-171 JA SC AWN 
Satan's Sanctuary non-reprint CS-50 AR SC AWN 
And Faith, Undying SK-2 RM BBS 
The Prophet SK-4 
Savage Sword of Conan#83 

Original Publication 
SK - THE SWORD OF SOLOMON KANE 1-6 (1985-1986), all re-adaptations 
SS - SAVAGE SWORD OF CONAN 1-235 (1974-1995) b&w 
CS - CONAN SAGA 1-97 (1987-1995) b&w reprint 
KB - KULL AND THE BARBARIANS 1-3 (1975) b&w 
MP - MARVEL PREMIERE 1-61 (1972-1981), Kane in 33, 34 only 
MV - MARVEL PREVIEW 1-24 (1975-1980) b&w, Kane in 19 only 
DL - DRACULA LIVES! b&w 
MU - MONSTERS UNLEASHED b&w 


KANE, SOLOMON - active @ 1530-1565, puritan adventurer from Devon England, twice encountered and once slew Dracula. 
skilled at armed + unarmed combat 
REH's first hero. <chronology in Savage Sword of Conan#219> (net-preff)--(pg)"Red Shadows," Weird Tales (August, 1928); Monsters Unleashed#1/2 (Kull and the Barbarians#, Savage Sword of Conan#13, Marvel Premiere#33,34/Sword of Solomon Kane#1 
Savage Sword of Conan #18, 19, 34/2, 37/2, 39, 62/2, 33/2//Solomon Kane#? Kull and the Barbarians#2,3/SK5 Savage Sword of Conan #53,54/SK#6, MarvPrev#19/4, Savage Sword of Conan #41, <children of Asshur> Savage Sword of Conan #20/2 //SK#6 
Savage Sword of Conan #218-220 (old) 
unknown chron: SSoC#14, Dracula Lives#3/3, Savage Sword of Conan#22/5, 25/2, 26/2, 38/2, 41, 83, 171 <ConanSaga#50-Satan's Sanctuary> 
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/ 

The Sword of Solomon Kane series is a bit of a problem, as it readapts most of Kane's adventures which had already been done in Savage Sword and elsewhere....and it seems to state that they all took place in 1555!

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Posted: 11 Mar 2004 10:06 am    
By Scathach80

Red Sonja also appeared in a one-shot called Scavenger Hunt, and in Conan the Savage#9. I have no idea where they fit in. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Hey, that's a pretty good listing of Kull's chronology. Though I just metioned in another thread that Conan's no longer considered canon technically, it still would be nice to have chronologies written up for all of the major Robert E. Howard characters, (after all, the 2099 isn't considered canon, yet I think we're working on mapping out all the appearances in those titles...). 

Anyway, as I recall, Red Sonja's chronology is listed in Conan Saga #96, (which I can't seem to find at this time). You think you could do a chronology mapping out for her, Scathach? 

What I'd eventually like to see is listings for all the major heroes and villians, including: Conan, Red Sonja, Belit, Valeria, King Kull, Solomon Kane, Thulsa Doom, and Thoth Amon... 
<<<


Thoth-Amon and Thulsa Doom have entries at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix 

Belit appeared in Conan the Barbarian I#58-100, Giant-Size Conan#1 (in a flashababck), Savage Sword of Conan#97? (Leopard Men of Darfar), Conan the Savage#2-4, Marvel Feature Presents Red Sonja#6-7, and Savage Sword of Conan#107/2. I think that is about it. 

Valeria's chronology would be pretty easy, as she mostly appeared only in Savage Sword. A bit of a curveball, though; in Red Sonja II#1-2, it was revealed that Valeria was originally a young girl named Merina. Those issues basically detail her origin.

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Posted: 11 Mar 2004 10:11 am    
By Scathach80

Valeria 
Valeria of the Red Brotherhood (Valeria's origin) SS-225 RT DT EM 
Isle of Pirate's Doom REH SS-73-74, 76-79 (CS-57-59) RT JB DB 
By Hatred Reborn SS-172 JA JS 
Revenge of the Red Brotherhood SS-177 SR MJ 

Valeria showed up in these issues in solo adventures. 

Conan: River of Blood 1-3 (1998) a mini-series. 
this was a sequel to Red Nails.

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Posted: 11 Mar 2004 06:37 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, these are actually great starts to listing all of the Hyborian character chronologies. As you've brought up though, (such as those Kull appearances in Dr. Strange) some character appearances have yet to be nailed down firmly. But these are great starts! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 05:36 pm 
By Scathach80

Kull was also in a flashback in Tomb of Dracula I#26.

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Posted: 01 May 2004 12:07 am    
By SeanCurtin

There's a generic one-panel flashback appearance of King Kull in CTB 1, in the form of a conjured-up vision of the past; since this is Kull's first Marvel Comics appearance, it definitely needs to be listed. Since the vision mostly focuses on Kull's rulership, it ought to be placed fairly early in his kingship of Valusia. 

A very brief flashback to "The Mirrors of Tuzun Thune" is seen in CTB 25; since that issue was published before "Mirrors" was adapted in SSOC 34/2, it ought to be referenced. (If Tuzun Thune were to be listed, his chronology would likewise list CTB 25-FB as his first appearance.) 

-Sean

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 12:30 pm
By Enda80

Uncanny X-Men Annual#13/3 takes place inbetween SSOC#212. I thought of that as just a symbolic panel fb, but Olshevsky actually gave a listing in his X-Men Index for it as described.

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Thread 32

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 07:36 pm    Post subject: Classic X-Men
By Ross

Apologies if this is a FAQ somewhere... just wondering, how many original stories appeared in Classic X-Men? Was there a regular original back-up story? I'm trying to get my head around what the X-Men continuity of the 1980s encompasses.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 08:19 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

#1-44 had original back-up stories. Additionally, #1-21 had some new material added to the main story. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 33

Posted: 29 May 2004 07:43 am    Post subject: Johnn Storm, Problem Fireman
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I'm still getting caught up on my chronologizing, but I saw that Paul B had put his initial placement of FF issues like so... 

FF 60 
Knights 4 
FF 61-66 
Human Torch 2-12 
FF 67+ 

Problem is, this doesn't work. Johnny is clearly identified as being the Fantastic Four's CFO in Human Torch #2, placing it at least after FF #61. But, he also spends much of the next several issues acting completely ignorant of firefighting, which he clearly shows a penchant for in 4 4-5. But then there's this whole pesky issue of the FF's finances being swindled. Easy enough to throw 4 a little later, but then why didn't Johnny get reprimanded by anyone for screwing up and why does he remain CFO? 

So, let me toss out a few other options... 

1) 4 isn't canon. It's an easy/cheap way out, and makes the wildly inaccurate characterizations make some sense. The down side is that we don't really have the authority to do that.  

2) The placements stand as is. We use the explanation that Johnny is actually quite knowledgeable of firefighting and only plays ignorant for the sake of Mike Snow. I don't buy this because Johnny is clearly shown in Human Torch that he decidedly does not make light of fires or firemen around Mike. 

3) 4 occurs after Human Torch and Johnny is reprimanded off-camera. Jian (or someone) explains to the rest of the FF that it wasn't Johnny's fault and he couldn't have known about the problem. (After all, the same crook hit Hammerhead, Stark and Osborne.) Johnny remembers his brief experience with Mike Snow and decides firefighting is something he could do full-time until the FF get back on their feet. I don't like this because he requires a heck of a lot of off-camera explanations. 

4) Human Torch actually occurs alongside 4 but Johnny is not reprimanded because the FF's finances are stolen within days of his becoming CFO. I'm partial to this because it coalesces Johnny's fireman experiences in a more logical sequence and maintains a logic for the financing issues. My current proposal looks something like this... 

FF #60-61 
Human Torch #2 
Knights 4 #1-5 
Human Torch #3 
Knights 4 #6 (I'm presuming here that we see Johnny in training) 
Human Torch #4-12 
FF #62+ 

Frickin' Sacasa! Do you realize that Morrison's abysmal FF: 1 2 3 4 fits better in continuity than this dreck!?!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2004 08:09 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Hey, back in the sixties they had the Torch living in a subsurban house with a secret identity, and THAT was still treated as canon. We've seen worse...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 May 2004 09:14 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

They tried to explain this in Strange Tales #106: 

Johnny wrote: 
>>>
How did you know who I was? 
<<<


Zante wrote: 
>>>
Surely you jest! Everybody knows that Johnny Storm and the fabulous Fire-Boy (sic) are one and the same person! 
<<<


Sue wrote: 
>>>
Of course, Johnny! All Glenville knows of your dual role! 
<<<


Johnny wrote: 
>>>
Holy cow! And all this time, I thought I was hiding it so cleverly! Well, I'll be-- 

But if everyone knew, why didn't they say anything? 
<<<


Sue wrote: 
>>>
No one ever mentioned it to you because you yourself never spoke of it! They assumed you wanted privacy--and they respected your desire! 
<<<


So there you are. All tied up, with a neat little bow! 


watching: kim possible

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Posted: 29 May 2004 09:34 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

And the moral of this story is: things were just as bad in the good old days.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 May 2004 08:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

The whole "Johnny Storm, fireman" issue has been nagging at me in recent months as well. But it's just to early to tell exactly what Johnny's firefighting experience will be in Marvel Knights 4 and how this may or may not affect the Mike Snow storyline in the Human Torch series. I'm in a "wait-and-see" mode on this one, although I do have tentative placements for 4 and HT in the calendar, mostly as placeholders. Who knows? "4" may yet involve such an egregious violation of continuity that we'll need to pitch it onto the non-canon pile. 

I have "4" in the late summer and fall, with the first eleven issues of the Human Torch series in the following late winter and spring. I have HT 12 the September after that, not only because of football references but because of the Thing's chronology in FF. 


Quote: 
>>>
Frickin' Sacasa! Do you realize that Morrison's abysmal FF: 1 2 3 4 fits better in continuity than this dreck!?! 
<<<


I hope you don't mean to imply that that piece of crap, FF: 1 2 3 4, is canon.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2004 11:56 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I hope you don't mean to imply that that piece of crap, FF: 1 2 3 4, is canon. 
<<<


Well, if it is (which I don't personaly rule out as a possibility), it best fits between GSDEF 3 (Jan '75, same month as FF 154) and MOKF 59 (Dec '77, same month as FF 189). In GSDEF 3 the Prime Mover is destroyed or deactivated in an off-world contest with the Grandmaster, in FF: 1234 the Prime Mover has been modified to contain powerful extra-terrestrial technology (and it loses said technology by the series' end), and in MOKF 59 the PM is intact, on Earth and in Doom's possession. Yes, you have to write the costumes off as an artistic error, but there's no way to fit the series into continuity in a point where the FF are wearing those costumes. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 08:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
it best fits between GSDEF 3 (Jan '75, same month as FF 154) and MOKF 59 (Dec '77, same month as FF 189). In GSDEF 3 the Prime Mover is destroyed or deactivated in an off-world contest with the Grandmaster, in FF: 1234 the Prime Mover has been modified to contain powerful extra-terrestrial technology (and it loses said technology by the series' end), and in MOKF 59 the PM is intact, on Earth and in Doom's possession. 
<<<


Hmm. How would such a placement work with the FF (costumes aside), Namor (who appears in 1234 in his green swim trunks, not the moisture-retaining costume), Dr. Doom, and the Mole Man?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 09:09 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I hope you don't mean to imply that that piece of crap, FF: 1 2 3 4, is canon. 
<<<

I thought it was intended to be. 

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Well, if it is (which I don't personaly rule out as a possibility), it best fits between GSDEF 3 (Jan '75, same month as FF 154) and MOKF 59 (Dec '77, same month as FF 189). In GSDEF 3 the Prime Mover is destroyed or deactivated in an off-world contest with the Grandmaster, in FF: 1234 the Prime Mover has been modified to contain powerful extra-terrestrial technology (and it loses said technology by the series' end), and in MOKF 59 the PM is intact, on Earth and in Doom's possession. Yes, you have to write the costumes off as an artistic error, but there's no way to fit the series into continuity in a point where the FF are wearing those costumes. 
<<<


Then doesn't it make more sense for Prime Mover to appear after MOKF 59? 

I actually had placed 1 2 3 4 between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257... 

1) Original Baxter Building. So it's prior to FF 278 
2) Black FF uniforms. So it's after FF 256 
3) Doom is alive. So it's prior to FF 260 

That basically leaves a four issue window. But Reed is captured in 257 and doesn't show up again until 261 -- after Doom's death. That puts us after 256 but before the end of 257. 

You can't put 1234 between the issues, because the FF are in the process of rushing Franklin off to the hospital. And the biggest "hole" within 257 where we could resonably drop 1234 is the two days between pages 18 and 19. 

The only continuity "error" at that point would be Alicia's hair being too long in 1234 -- she did need hospitalization (and a substantial hair cut!) after 256 but she could've been released in those two days.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 01:19 pm    
By SeanCurtin

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Then doesn't it make more sense for Prime Mover to appear after MOKF 59? 
<<<

Well my thinking was like this: 

Prime Mover leaves Earth under own power, meets Grandmaster, is destroyed (GSDEF 3) 
Prime Mover is rebuilt by Grandmaster with alien tech, returns to Earth under own power (assumed, prior to 1234) 
Prime Mover has alien tech, is deactivated again (1234) 
Prime Mover is rebuilt as normal (MOKF 59) 

Placing 1234 between these two points allows for a point in time where the Prime Mover has been potentially exposed to alien technology, and allows for a way for the PM to return to Earth for its subsequent appearances. 


Quote: 
>>>
I actually had placed 1 2 3 4 between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257... 
<<<

That's how the Appendix had it listed: 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/primer.htm 
But later comments on that page claim that that time frame doesn't work after all in regards to Namor and Mole Man. The Mole Man part can be worked around easily enough (like he wouldn't want two consorts!), though my recollection of Atlantean politics is fuzzy. 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 02:37 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Well my thinking was like this: 

Prime Mover leaves Earth under own power, meets Grandmaster, is destroyed (GSDEF 3) 
Prime Mover is rebuilt by Grandmaster with alien tech, returns to Earth under own power (assumed, prior to 1234) 
Prime Mover has alien tech, is deactivated again (1234) 
Prime Mover is rebuilt as normal (MOKF 59) 

Placing 1234 between these two points allows for a point in time where the Prime Mover has been potentially exposed to alien technology, and allows for a way for the PM to return to Earth for its subsequent appearances. 
<<< 

Right. But wouldn't it make more sense if he was rebuilt as before and then have the alien technology added afterwards? You wouldn't built him with alien tech, deactivate him and rebuild him again with normal human tech. 


SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
That's how the Appendix had it listed: 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/primer.htm 
But later comments on that page claim that that time frame doesn't work after all in regards to Namor and Mole Man. The Mole Man part can be worked around easily enough (like he wouldn't want two consorts!), though my recollection of Atlantean politics is fuzzy. 
<<<

I haven't done super-exhaustive research, but Namor is still king of Atlantis as of Marvel Two-in-One Annual #7. And that's the story that is partially responsible for the injuries Ben Grimm has in FF #258.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 03:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I actually had placed 1 2 3 4 between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257... 
<<<

Wait a sec...don't FF @ 17 and THING 3-6 occur during that gap between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 03:04 pm    
By SeanCurtin

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Right. But wouldn't it make more sense if he was rebuilt as before and then have the alien technology added afterwards? You wouldn't built him with alien tech, deactivate him and rebuild him again with normal human tech. 
<<<

After 1234 all of the reality-warping alien tech that the PM used was destroyed, so Doom wouldn't have had the option to reuse the alien tech. 


Quote: 
>>>
I haven't done super-exhaustive research, but Namor is still king of Atlantis as of Marvel Two-in-One Annual #7. And that's the story that is partially responsible for the injuries Ben Grimm has in FF #258. 
<<<


Problem solved! 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 08:24 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Wait a sec...don't FF @ 17 and THING 3-6 occur during that gap between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257? 
<<<

Russ has them listed between 257 and 259.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 09:33 pm  
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Wait a sec...don't FF @ 17 and THING 3-6 occur during that gap between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257? 

Russ has them listed between 257 and 259. 
<<<



Then the MCP contradicts the sequence indicated in the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, Vol. 2 #5. Check out the entry for A 234: 

"...following the above, all seven next in Thor #334, then She-Hulk and Vision in Thing #5 (Vision behind the scenes in both), then Scarlet Witch and Vision in Fantastic Four #257, then in Fantastic Four #261..." 

In other words, the Vision appears in Thing #5 BEFORE he appears in pages 19-22 of Fantastic Four #257. 


For this to be true, the sequence would be as follows, after the tight continuity between A 233-234, FF 256-257, THING 2, DRSTR2 60, and T 334-335: 

FF @ 17 occurs the same day as page 18 of FF 257 and the next day. THING 3 picks up from there and goes into the day after that. THING 4-6 occur that same last day. Then FF 257 (19-22) occurs that same day, as it is now "two days" after page 18 of FF 257. 

I haven't picked up these issues in a long time, but can the sequence indicated by the Index be accommodated in the span of the "two days" between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257? If so, I'd follow the chronology of the Index, and that would mean there's no room here for 1234.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 11:32 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I haven't picked up these issues in a long time, but can the sequence indicated by the Index be accommodated in the span of the "two days" between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257? If so, I'd follow the chronology of the Index, and that would mean there's no room here for 1234. 
<<<


...or, it would mean that we could interpret "two days" as "a few days", or simply continue to disagree with the Index. 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 12:21 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I thought this issue had already been resolved. Check out Archive #12, a discussion between Paul and Sean. Search for the phrase "257". 


watching: blue sunshine

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 12:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Not really. The discussion was sidetracked into dealing with the placement of FF 250 relative to M/TIO 96 and how FF 258 factored into things. I don't think we ever got back to nailing the placement of 1234. 

Setting aside the reference I made to the Official Marvel Index (see below), I see one major problem with the placement of 1234 between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257. 

First, though, I should point out the following: 
FF@ 17 must occur between these two pages. FF@ 17 takes place over the course of three days. The first day must occur after page 18 of FF 257, given that Sharon Selleck has to be here after the restaurant scene on page 15 of FF 257, and that the segue from page 15 to pages 16-18 of FF 257 is "meanwhile." On the third day of FF@ 17, Johnny states that this has been the best coupla days in a long, long time and notes Franklins and Alicias ongoing recovery, Sues being pregnant, and Reeds and Sues plans to move; this indicates that it is a coupla days after page 18 of FF 257. My theory is that FF@ 17 begins later in the day of page 18 of FF 257 and ends late in the day two days later. This means that page 19 of FF 257, which occurs at 10 AM, cannot occur "two days" after page 18; it must be three days at the least. 

Now, the reason 1234 cannot occur between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257, as FF@ 17 does: Alicia Masters appears healthy and out of the hospital in 1234. Remember that Alicia was seriously injured in the Annihilus attack of FF 256 and spends the next three weeks in the hospital. Let's look at Ben Grimm's dialogue from THING 7, in which he is visiting Alicia, who is still bandaged up and in the hospital: "We all bin through a lot in the past three weeks, tourin' the negative zone [FF 253-256], fightin' Tyros an' Doctor Doom [FF 259-260]...seein' Doom get killed -- fer real this time." 

To recap: 
FF 256 -- FF costumes changed and Alicia injured 
FF 260 -- Doom apparently killed, before THING 7 
THING 7 -- Alicia still hospitalized 
FF 278 -- Baxter Building destroyed 

In 1234, Alicia is fine, the FF appear in their new costumes, Doom is alive, and the Baxter Building is standing. All of these conditions cannot apply. 


One other note not pertinent to 1234: 
THING 4 occurs at the same time as page 19-22 of FF 257. In THING 4, Roberta notes that Reed is at Avengers Mansion and that Sue is not in the Baxter Building (she's in Connecticut). And THING 5 occurs "days" after THING 4, according to the Puppet Master, so the Index is incorrect to place Vision in THING 5 before pages 19-22 of FF 257. In fact, I don't really see that Vision can be labelled BTS in THING 5 to begin with; sure we see She-Hulk in Avengers Mansion in THING 5, but no mention is made of the Vision recuperating there. We know he must be there, but unless he's referenced, I don't see a BTS listing as being appropriate.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 01:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Not really. The discussion was sidetracked into dealing with the placement of FF 250 relative to M/TIO 96 and how FF 258 factored into things. I don't think we ever got back to nailing the placement of 1234. 
<<<

Right, but this is the part I was talking about: 


Quote: 
>>>
Wait a sec...don't FF @ 17 and THING 3-6 occur during that gap between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257? 

Russ has them listed between 257 and 259.  


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Then the MCP contradicts the sequence indicated in the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, Vol. 2 #5. Check out the entry for A 234:  
<<<


I wasn't referring to the placement of 1234, since of course, that hadn't been published at the time of the Index, but the issue of how the MCP differs from the Index, in regards to FF #257. That issue has been dealt with previously. 


watching: law and order

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 05:13 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
First, though, I should point out the following: 
FF@ 17 must occur between these two pages.  
<<<

Looking back at the Annual, I'll grant you're right on this. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
This means that page 19 of FF 257, which occurs at 10 AM, cannot occur "two days" after page 18; it must be three days at the least. 
<<<

I just want to highlight this for a moment. Bear with me.  


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Now, the reason 1234 cannot occur between pages 18 and 19 of FF 257, as FF@ 17 does: Alicia Masters appears healthy and out of the hospital in 1234. Remember that Alicia was seriously injured in the Annihilus attack of FF 256 and spends the next three weeks in the hospital.  
<<<

Not quite. We don't actually have any reference WHERE Alicia is in 1234 #2. It's presumed, naturally, that it's her place but we're never expressly told that. It could well be just an expensive hospital room. 

Now, granted, she's not shown as injured here, but we're never really shown the extent of her injuries. She's lying in bed a few times and had her head bandaged. Never mention of crutches or a sling or anything. So it could be that she hadn't yet had whatever operation was needed that required shaving her head. Maybe that was scheduled for the next morning. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
To recap: 
FF 256 -- FF costumes changed and Alicia injured 
FF 260 -- Doom apparently killed, before THING 7 
THING 7 -- Alicia still hospitalized 
FF 278 -- Baxter Building destroyed 

In 1234, Alicia is fine, the FF appear in their new costumes, Doom is alive, and the Baxter Building is standing. All of these conditions cannot apply. 
<<< 


Right. 1234 simply does not fit anywhere and have every condition met. My thinking is that Reed and Sue's costumes are more relevant and germaine to the story than Alicia's bandages since A) they are the main characters in both series and B) there is a more logical -- albiet stretched -- explanation for Alicia's change of appearance. 

The only remaining issue is this two day window we're trying to work within. My points here are A) 1234 by itself could fit within the two days, so the Annual is really more of a problem anyway, B) you've already shown that the gap has to be more than two days to accomodate the Annual and C) everything is reset at the end of 1234 so a time-shift isn't unreasonable.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 06:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Right. 1234 simply does not fit anywhere and have every condition met. My thinking is that Reed and Sue's costumes are more relevant and germaine to the story than Alicia's bandages since A) they are the main characters in both series and B) there is a more logical -- albiet stretched -- explanation for Alicia's change of appearance.  
<<<

Sorry, but I really can't ignore Alicia's condition and appearance here. She was in rough shape, bandaged and in the hospital for some time. I can't see her leaving the hospital, dispensing with the bandages, growing her hair, then appearing in 1234, only to reappear bandaged up in the hospital. This period of FF history was meant to have very tight continuity between FF and TG and tie-in titles, and things read fairly well if we ignore 1234. This was not a good place to stick a continuity implant, if this indeed was the creators' intent. 

How do the plot and characterization fare if we read those issues of FF and TG with 1234 stuck in? Aside from the glaring error of Alicia's condition, does 1234 seem forced here? Does the interplay between the FF and Doom make sense with the 1234 story followed very quickly by FF 259-261?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 06:31 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Not quite. We don't actually have any reference WHERE Alicia is in 1234 #2. It's presumed, naturally, that it's her place but we're never expressly told that. It could well be just an expensive hospital room.  
<<<

In 1234 #1, Alicia is most definitely in her apartment. She's wearing an "omni-communicator" that Reed made so that "every appliance in the apartment is now voice operated." We also she her standing among her sculptures. 


Quote: 
>>>
1234 by itself could fit within the two days 
<<<

Except you also need to allow for things to happen before 1234 #1. For instance, in #1, Johnny says, "Reed's had the old 'deep in thought' sign up for over a day now." And Sue exclaims, "What's wrong with everyone these last few days?" Then, at the end of issue #4, the FF plan to explore the Quantasphere. 


I've been finding it problematic to place 1234 between pages of FF 257 in terms of the characters' lives. Alicia aside, there are a bunch of references in 1234 to Reed not paying enough attention to Sue or spending enough time with her. Heck, in FF 357 they had just returned from spending what was to them four weeks in the Negative Zone, and Reed and Sue spent lots of time there getting friendly with one another. Don't forget, this is when their second child was conceived. I'm just not buying 1234 being shoehorned into this spot. 

Also, at this point in time not only was Alicia hospitalized, but Franklin was as well, and the FF spent lots of time visiting him in the hospital. Reed was determined to find a place to live outside New York so they could take Franklin away from the danger of being in the Baxter Building. Why would Reed be holed up in his lab and the FF be hanging around the Baxter Building being snarky at this point in time? And why would Reed decide to explore the Quantasphere at this time? There were patients to see and houses to hunt. I don't know that the Prime Mover be used to explain all this. 

We should also look at Dr. Doom's involvement here relative to his chronology (in the midst of FF 258 and his "power cosmic" gambit; why would be shift gears to deal with a Prime Mover gambit) and Namor's involvement with Sue here so shortly before they both work together in FF 260-261 and AF 4. I'm betting things just won't add up. 

I'm not closed to the concept that 1234 is non-canon. We may even discover that "Marvel Knights" FF series (including "4") are by definition non-canon. Perhaps the telling clue will be whether we see any of the events of 1234 and 4 referenced in canon stories.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 08:17 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Sorry, but I really can't ignore Alicia's condition and appearance here. She was in rough shape, bandaged and in the hospital for some time. I can't see her leaving the hospital, dispensing with the bandages, growing her hair, then appearing in 1234, only to reappear bandaged up in the hospital.  
<<<

Really, though, she doesn't change in appearance if we place 1234 before everything else that's tossed into that hole. We see Alicia in FF #256 with long hair. She doesn't appear in 257 at all, which is what led me to the idea that maybe she's not really as bad off from Annihilus' injuries per se, but rather she's recovering from the operations that were needed afterwards. Remember, we in 256, we don't actually see any visable signs of injury. Her clothes are little torn up, but there are no open wounds or clearly broken bones or anything like that. 

That, to me, is a logical explanation for her appearance. The FF suddenly wearing costumes that won't be introduced for another 50 issues doesn't make any sense to me at all. And I have no desire to chalk it up to artistic license because there were two artists and an editor who decided they should be in those uniforms. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
This was not a good place to stick a continuity implant, if this indeed was the creators' intent. 
<<<

Actually, Morrison specifically said at the time that he tried to write it such that it occur at any time in the FF's history, and it would be impossible to place. I took that as a personal challenge to find a place for it.  

It's clearly becoming impossible to place, but for the exact opposite reason Morrison described. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
How do the plot and characterization fare if we read those issues of FF and TG with 1234 stuck in? Aside from the glaring error of Alicia's condition, does 1234 seem forced here? Does the interplay between the FF and Doom make sense with the 1234 story followed very quickly by FF 259-261? 
<<<

I don't buy this arguement because 1234 is going to sound awkward and forced regardless of where you place it, because the characterizations in the story in and of itself are awkward and forced. The FF in 1234 don't sound or feel like the FF from anywhere! 

If you want to go by characterization alone, the best place to put this is during Engleharts' run where he had the real FF in stasis and a bunch of clones running around causing mayhem.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 08:37 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In 1234 #1, Alicia is most definitely in her apartment. She's wearing an "omni-communicator" that Reed made so that "every appliance in the apartment is now voice operated." We also she her standing among her sculptures. 
<<<

Fair enough. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Except you also need to allow for things to happen before 1234 #1. For instance, in #1, Johnny says, "Reed's had the old 'deep in thought' sign up for over a day now." And Sue exclaims, "What's wrong with everyone these last few days?"  
<<<


These last few days, the team's been worrying sick about Franklin. That actually fits in well, I think. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Then, at the end of issue #4, the FF plan to explore the Quantasphere. 
<<<
 

Which may have been aborted. Or maybe time flows differently there. Or... 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I've been finding it problematic to place 1234 between pages of FF 257 in terms of the characters' lives. Alicia aside, there are a bunch of references in 1234 to Reed not paying enough attention to Sue or spending enough time with her. Heck, in FF 357 they had just returned from spending what was to them four weeks in the Negative Zone, and Reed and Sue spent lots of time there getting friendly with one another. Don't forget, this is when their second child was conceived. I'm just not buying 1234 being shoehorned into this spot. 
<<< 

Well, let's see... 

The four weeks ended with Reed dying and having his mind transferred to an alien computer. Then, they return home -- under insanely dangerous circumstances that supposedly border on universe-shattering -- to find their home wrecked and their child on the brink of death. And the Avengers have the audacity to ask Reed to help fix Vision. Oh, and his wife is pregnant which, if things go as before, would require Reed to head into the Negative Zone (again!) and fight Annihilus (again!). 

Personally, I wouldn't blame Reed one bit for locking himself up for a few days. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Also, at this point in time not only was Alicia hospitalized, but Franklin was as well, and the FF spent lots of time visiting him in the hospital. 
<<<

I recall seeing them in the hospital only once. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Reed was determined to find a place to live outside New York so they could take Franklin away from the danger of being in the Baxter Building. 
<<<

Which he clearly delegated to Susan, according to Byrne's story. Reed himself did no house-hunting and seemed to spend very little time in Connecitcut anyway. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Why would Reed be holed up in his lab and the FF be hanging around the Baxter Building being snarky at this point in time? 
<<<

Although I thought Morrison did a lousy job with characterization overall, that's not unusal for Reed. How many times did Stan Lee have Reed get pissy with Sue because he was working? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And why would Reed decide to explore the Quantasphere at this time?  
<<<

If Reed felt there was a threat that could pose a significant danger to Earth. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
We should also look at Dr. Doom's involvement here relative to his chronology (in the midst of FF 258 and his "power cosmic" gambit; why would be shift gears to deal with a Prime Mover gambit) 
<<< 

Doom's never been one to let an opportunity slip by, even if it does mean adjusting his plans on the fly. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
and Namor's involvement with Sue here so shortly before they both work together in FF 260-261 and AF 4.  
<<<

Well, Namor and Sue's involvement AT ALL doesn't make sense past the first FF Annual. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm not closed to the concept that 1234 is non-canon. We may even discover that "Marvel Knights" FF series (including "4") are by definition non-canon. Perhaps the telling clue will be whether we see any of the events of 1234 and 4 referenced in canon stories. 
<<<

I'm totally cool with this!  

Except that I don't know that it's really our place to judge whether or not these are canon.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 08:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Except you also need to allow for things to happen before 1234 #1. For instance, in #1, Johnny says, "Reed's had the old 'deep in thought' sign up for over a day now." And Sue exclaims, "What's wrong with everyone these last few days?" 

These last few days, the team's been worrying sick about Franklin. That actually fits in well, I think.  
<<<

But that would be so obvious. Sue wouldn't need to wonder what's wrong with everyone. 


Quote: 
>>>
I recall seeing them in the hospital only once.  
<<<

True, on page 18 of FF 257, right before that gap in which you want to place 1234. And although his prognosis is positive, Franklin doesn't look so great there. 



Quote: 
>>>
Which he clearly delegated to Susan, according to Byrne's story. Reed himself did no house-hunting and seemed to spend very little time in Connecitcut anyway.  
<<<

Then what's Sue doing in 1234? Get on the stick, lady!  


Quote: 
>>>
And why would Reed decide to explore the Quantasphere at this time? 

If Reed felt there was a threat that could pose a significant danger to Earth.  
<<<

From the dialogue, it's quite clearly to satisfy his curiosity...and Ben agrees enthusiastically to join him. Not the best of priorities within the context of contemporary issues of FF. 


Quote: 
>>>
Doom's never been one to let an opportunity slip by, even if it does mean adjusting his plans on the fly.  
<<<

I don't know about that. Doom's always impressed me as being rather rigid and one who bides his time. The changing of schemes back and forth in quick succession doesn't seem to suit him. 


Quote: 
>>>
Well, Namor and Sue's involvement AT ALL doesn't make sense past the first FF Annual.  
<<<

No argument there! 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm not closed to the concept that 1234 is non-canon. We may even discover that "Marvel Knights" FF series (including "4") are by definition non-canon. Perhaps the telling clue will be whether we see any of the events of 1234 and 4 referenced in canon stories. 

I'm totally cool with this! 

Except that I don't know that it's really our place to judge whether or not these are canon. 
<<<

Paging Marvel! Paging Marvel!  

Seriously, I think sticking 1234 in the midst of FF 257 is way too much of a force-fit that doesn't make sense if you were to read the characters' stories in chronological order. 

Here are my (still incomplete) notes on the stories from that time: 

Day 1: Tuesday 
FANTASTIC FOUR #254 (1-3) 
One day, two days before FF 254 (4-11). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #251 (1-15) 
It must be the same day as FF 254 (1-3). According to OMITTA 5, this story occurs after A@ 12. It must be more than just a couple of months after FF 245. Reed and Sue attend a Baxter Building tenants meeting and Johnny visits Julie at her dramatic arts school, which is in session. There he meets Julies roommate Sharon Selleck. We see snow on rooftops in New York. 

Day 2: Wednesday 
FANTASTIC FOUR #251 (16-22) 
The morning after FF 251 (1-15). The FF journey into the Negative Zone and Annihilus breeches the Baxter Building and attacks Alicia. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #252 
The same day as FF 251 (16-22). Half an hour after FF 251 (16-22), Annihilus attacks Franklin. Meanwhile, the FF have an adventure in the Negative Zone. 

Day 3: Thursday 
FANTASTIC FOUR #253 
It must be the day after FF 252. Since Julie mentions that she saw Johnny the day before yesterday, then it must be only two days after FF 251 (1-15), although two weeks have passed for the FF in the Negative Zone. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #254 (4-12) 
The same day as FF 253. It is two days after FF 254 (1-3). The FF have been in the Negative Zone for two months, but only a day has elapsed on Earth since FF 251 (16-22) -- Johnny Storm explains in FF 257 that four months passed in the Negative Zone while about four hours passed on Earth. The Richards second child is conceived. In the Baxter Building, Annihilus activates a machine that he has been preparing. 
AVENGERS #232 (20) 
The same day as FF 254 (4-12). This segment cannot occur the same day as A 232 (1-19). According to OMITTA 5, this segment occurs after A@ 12. She-Hulk and the Wasp go apartment hunting. 
AVENGERS #232 (21-22) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #254 (13-14) 
The same day as FF 254 (4-12). She-Hulk and the Wasp run into an invisible barrier in Manhattan. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #254 (15-22) 
The same day as A 232 (21-22). The FF continue their adventure in the Negative Zone. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #255 
The same day as FF 254 (15-22). According to the MCP, this story occurs after DD 195. 
AVENGERS #233 (1-14p5) 
The same day as FF 255. According to OMITTA 5, this segment occurs after PM&IF 102. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #256 (1-15p2) 
The same day as Av 233 (1-13) and FF 253. 
AVENGERS #233 (14p6-17) 
The same day as FF 256 (1-15). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #256 (15p3) ~ AVENGERS #233 (18p1-18p2) 
The same day as A 233 (14-17). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #256 (15p4-18p1) 
The same day as FF 256 (15p3). 
AVENGERS #233 (18p3-20) 
The same day as FF 256 (15-18). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #256 (18p2-20) 
The same day as A 233 (18-20). 
AVENGERS #233 (21-22) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #256 (21-22) 
The same day as FF 256 (18-20). According to OMITTA 5, this segment occurs before TG 2. 
AVENGERS #234 (1-5p4) 
The same day as A 233 (21-22). It must be more than just a few short months after A 211. The injured Vision is brought back to Avengers Mansion in a life-support capsule. Cap talks to Thor about Tony giving up his Iron Man identity and decides to do something about it, as seen in IM 172, which may occur the following day. 

Day 4: Friday 
AVENGERS #234 (5p5-21) 
The morning after A 234 (1-5). According to OMITTA 5, this segment occurs before IM 172 and HAWK 1. Just before dawn, Hawkeye (still in a cast) stops a break-in at Cross Technological Enterprises. After seeing Wanda get into a tussle with She-Hulk, Wasp and Captain Marvel try to cheer Wanda up. 
INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #171 
One day. According to OMITTA 5, this story occurs after A 234 (1-5), probably the day after. Morley mentions that he is going to visit his sister for the weekend, so it is probably a Friday. We see leafless trees. 
INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #172 
The same day as IM 171. According to OMITTA 5, this story occurs before T 334. The reference to baseball season must be topical. 

Day 5: Saturday 
THING #2 (1-21) 
One day, two days (forty-eight hours) after FF 256 (21-22). The Thing cleans up the mess from the battle with Annihilus, then checks in with Reed and Sue at the hospital, where Franklins condition is noted as stable. He then checks in on Alicia, all bandaged up in another hospital room, and tells her about a college love of his, Alynn Cambers, who is coming to pay him a visit. Seven hours later, at 5:10 PM, Alynn arrives at the Baxter Building to ask advice on how to deal with her deformity from a stroke. It is not a Sunday or a holiday, as the mail is delivered. Green grass and trees in New York. 
DOCTOR STRANGE v2 #60 (1-2) 
It must be the evening of the day after A 234 (5-21). This segment occurs after T 333. At twilight, Dracula gathers an army of New York lowlifes. 
AVENGERS #234 (22p1-22p5) 
The same night as DRSTR2 60 (1-2). Wanda returns to her home in Leonia, thinking that Jan and Captain Marvel have been such a comfort the past two days. Green grass and trees in New Jersey. 
AVENGERS #234 (22p6-22p7) ~ DOCTOR STRANGE v2 #60 (3) 
The same night as A 234 (22p1-22p5). It is the evening of the day after A 234 (5-21). OMITTA 5 states that Stranges last previous appearance was in DRSTR2 59, but the chronologies in OMITTXM 3 and OMITTA 4 suggest that he appears in DEF 122-125 between DRSTR2 59 and A 234 (22), even though DEF 125 is listed as his last appearance before UX @ 7 in OMITTXM 3. Also, it is stated in T 333 that Strange appears in that issue. Dr. Strange summons Wanda at her home. 
DOCTOR STRANGE v2 #60 (4-22) 
The same night as A 234 (22). It is scant nights before DRSTR2 61 (1-9). According to OMITTA 5, this segment occurs before T 334. It is more than merely several days after DRSTR2 59. Dracula and his army storm Avengers Mansion to steal the Darkhold, but they are routed by Strange, Wanda, Captain Marvel, and Hannibal King. Strange transports the Darkhold to Baron Mordo's castle. 

Day 6: Sunday 
FANTASTIC FOUR #257 (1-15) 
It must be the day after THING 2 (1-21). Johnny mentions having spent the last two days at the hospital, keeping watch over the injured Franklin with Reed and Sue, implying that its two days after FF 256 (21-22) and that the FF cant have any adventures during those two days; this also implies that Ben was not at the hospital with the others, allowing him to have adventures during this two-day period. Johnny checks out a prospective new bachelor pad with Julie and Sharon, then they all go to a restaurant. Sharon refers to having last seen Johnny in FF 251 (16-22) as last week. 
THING #2 (22) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #257 (16p1-16p3) 
The same day as FF 257 (1-15), as noted by the meanwhile. It is a day after THING 2 (1-21). At the hospital, the doctor notes that Franklin will be fine, and a stubble-faced Reed announces to Sue and Ben that he and Sue will find a place to live outside New York. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #257 (16p4-18) 
The same day as FF 257 (16). It is two days before FF 257 (19-22) and a coupla days before FF 261 (1-8). At the hospital, Reed states that moving will not mean the end of the FF. Reed and Sue tell Ben that Sues pregnant, then they all go in to check on Franklin. 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #17 (1-11p3) 
It must be the same day as FF 257 (16-18). Sharon has borrowed Julies car for a gig and breaks down near Kings Crossing in upstate New York, where she is forced to stay. Green grass and trees. The narration notes that one of the cruellest winters of recent memory has given way to a most pleasant spring, but this must be topical. 

Day 7: Monday 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #17 (11p4-17) 
The day after FF@ 17 (1-11). Sharon spends the day in Kings Crossing and as she gets sick, she suspects its people are trying to keep her there. That night, she leaves a message for the FF before being attacked by the townsfolk. The reference to spring in the narrative must be topical. 
DOCTOR STRANGE v2 #61 (1-9) 
One day. DRSTR2 60 (4-22) is referred to as having occurred scant nights ago. 

Day 8: Tuesday 
DOCTOR STRANGE v2 #61 (10-22) 
The day after DRSTR2 61 (1-9). 
DOCTOR STRANGE v2 #62 
The same day as DRSTR2 61(10-22)? According to OMITTXM 3, this story must occur before X@ 7 -- it may be Stranges last appearance before that issue, as OMITTXM 3 must be in error in stating that DEF 125 was his last such appearance. 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #17 (18-38) 
The day (seven hours) after FF@ 17 (11-17). Johnny states that this has been the best coupla days in a long, long time and notes Franklins and Alicias ongoing recovery, Sues being pregnant, and Reeds and Sues plans to move; this indicates that it is a coupla days after FF 257 (16-18). Alerted to Sharons plight, the FF pinpoint her location and rescue her from the townsfolk of Kings Crossing, who had been infected by the Skrull milk of the Skrulls who had been turned into cows in FF 2. By the end of this adventure, it must be late in the day. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #260  FB 
One day, the day before FF 260. An Atlantean border guard interrupts Namors morning council to report that barbarians are advancing, but when he checks it out, Namor discovers that the barbarians are seeking refuge from something thats making their home waters unlivable. 

Day 9: Wednesday 
THING #3 (1-21) 
One morning, probably the morning after FF@ 17 (18-38). As Ben buys roses in the hospital gift shop (probably right at opening time), Lockjaw teleports a shaken Crystal into the building and she asks Ben to save Luna from the Terrigen Mist ceremony in Attilan. Leaving Crystal at the hospital, Ben and Lockjaw teleport to Attilan, where they are subdued. Hours later, Ben and Lockjaw escape, run afoul of the Inhumans, and confront Pietro. When Crystal teleports in and Lockjaw seemingly speaks, Pietro decides not to expose Luna to the mists. FANTASTIC FOUR #257 (19-21p3) 
The same morning as TG 3 (1-21). It cannot be just two days after FF 257 (16-18) because of the amount of time FF@ 17 occupies; it may be three days after. At ten oclock in the morning, Sue checks out a potential new home in Connecticut while Reed goes to Avengers Mansion to check up on the injured Vision. Green grass and trees in New York. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #259 (1-4) 
The same morning as FF 257 (19-21). Sue looks at the Connecticut home and an hour or so later, the paperwork is finished and the Benjamins will be homeowners in a few days. Sue then departs in her Fantasti-car segment and must run other errands all day before returning to New York. 
THING #3 (22) 
Two hours after TG 3 (1-21), Lockjaw and Ben teleport out of Attilan. 
THING #4 
The same day as TG 3 and FF 257 (19-21). It is days before TG 5. Lockjaw and Ben teleport into Rock Hollow, a town in the American South where they interrupt the torching of a house by an angry mob at high noon. After learning the plight of the houses occupant, a monstrous mutant named Lucas Jackson, Ben calls the Baxter Building, only to be told by Roberta that Reed is at Avengers Mansion and that Sue and Johnny arent in (Sue should be in Connecticut). The mob returns to kill Jackson and end up killing his mother and shooting Lockjaw. Jackson disperses the crowd with his love power and he, Ben, and Lockjaw bury his mother that day at sunset. Meanwhile, Puppet Master causes radioactive clay at an upstate New York castle to take human shape and animates it with his consciousness. It is hot in Rock Hollow. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #257 (21p4-22p3) 
The same day as TG 4. It is hours after FF 257 (19-21), perhaps even early evening by this point. Wanda notes that the events of A@ 12 have occurred in the past few short weeks. Reed is still working on the Vision and Wanda goes to make him some tea. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #261  FB 
The same day as FF 257 (21-22). While working on the Vision, Reed is abducted from Avengers Mansion by a beam that breeches the building. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #257 (22p4-22p5) 
The same day as FF 261-FB. The mansions intruder alert sounds and Wanda finds Reed gone and a big hole in the mansions wall. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #258 (17p2-22) 
It must be the same day as FF 257 (22p4-22p5). It is probably more than exactly six weeks after FF 258 pgs. 14-17, since all the stories that must take place since that issue take much more than six weeks to take place. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #259 (5-22) 
It must be the same evening as the sunset at the end of TG 4, although Sharon states that its an afternoon in June. Somehow, Ben managed to catch a commercial flight to New York from somewhere near Rock Hollow, or perhaps wherever the injured Lockjaw was able to teleport him before returning to Attilan. Ben notes that FF 256-257 and TG 3-4 have occurred over the past coupla days. On the way back to the Baxter Building, Ben battles Tryos and is joined by Johnny, to whom Sharon (who refers to FF@ 17) has just made a pass. Sue is captured by a Doombot on the way back home, then goes to help her teammates. The Silver Surfer follows a matter transferral beam to Earth. We see green grass and trees and light clothing in New York. 
ALPHA FLIGHT #2 
It must be the same day as FF 259 (5-22). This story may occur after the end of AF2 15-FB. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #260 (1-11p3) 
The same day as FF 259. It is the day after FF 260-FB and months before FF 287. Namor becomes unconscious in the unlivable waters of the barbarians home in the far north. When Doom sees that Reed is not involved in the battle with Tyros, Doom attempts to stop Tyros. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #287  FB (19p2) 
The same day as FF 260 (1-11). Bystander Norm McArthur watches Doom and Tyros battle. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #260 (11p4-15p2) 
The same day as FF 287-FB (19p2). Tyros fuses Dooms armor and immobilizes him. The Surfer arrives to battle Tyros. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #287  FB (19p3) 
The same day as FF 260 (11-15). Doom switches minds with bystander Norm McArthur. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #260 (15p3-22) 
The same day as FF 287-FB (19p3). Norm in Dooms armor is destroyed in the battle between Tyros and the Surfer. Tyros is consumed by the power cosmic and the Surfer is injured. May Parker cameos. A few hours later, the Surfer recovers in the FFs infirmary and Sue, looking at an unmade dinner, wonders why Reed hasnt returned from Avengers Mansion. Then Namor arrives in need of Sues help. 
ALPHA FLIGHT #3 (1-16) 
The same day as AF 2 and FF 360 (15-22). It is several months after AF 1. 
ALPHA FLIGHT #4 (1-15p3) 
The same day as AF 3 (1-16). The reference to summer must be topical. 
ALPHA FLIGHT #3 (17) ~ ALPHA FLIGHT #4 (15p4) 
The same day as AF 4 (1-15). 
ALPHA FLIGHT #4 (16-22) 
The same day as AF 4 (15p4). This segment occurs before XAF 1. 
ALPHA FLIGHT #16  FB 
The same day as AF 4 (16-22). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #287  FB (11p1-11p4) 
The same day as FF 260 (15-22). Hours after the battle with Tyros, Doom in Norms body arrives at Norms house and orders Norms wife Peggy around. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #261 (1-8) 
The same night as AF 4 (16-22). It is a coupla days after FF 257 (16-18). According to OMITTA 5, this segment occurs shortly before A 235. A few hours after AF 4 (16-22), Namor kisses Sue goodbye at the Baxter Building and leaves with Marrina. Sue ponders the fact that in less than twenty-four hours, Ive bought a house, fought two battles, and seen three super-villains destroyed in FF 259-260 and AF 4. She checks on Reeds whereabouts with Jarvis, who tells her that the Avengers have gone to the SHIELD space station to track the beam that breeched the mansion, but he doesnt know about Reeds abduction. Sue and the Surfer head to the mansion, where Wanda tells them of Reeds disappearance. The Surfer detects that Reed is not on earth, and Sue reports back to Johnny and Ben at the Baxter Building less than half an hour later. Green grass and trees in New York. 

Day 10: Thursday 
FANTASTIC FOUR #261 (9-22) 
The early morning after FF 261 (1-8), as I figure its past midnight by now. Minutes later, Sue, Ben, and Johnny blast off for the Blue Area of the moon, where they ask the Watcher for assistance. The Watcher transports them to a distant world where Reed is sentenced to die for saving Galactus in FF 244. When the Great Council begins to reconsider Reeds execution, Lilandra arrives to demand it. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #262 
The same day as FF 261 (9-22). This story occurs all those months after FF 244 and all those long years after FF 48. For Sue Richards, it has been some months since FF 251 only because four months passed for her in the day she spent in the Negative Zone. This story probably occurs before TG 7-FB, which is supposed to occur three weeks after FF 251; indeed, I have this story occurring before TG 5. At 9:17 AM, the Watcher retrieves John Byrne to chronicle the trial of Reed Richards. After the testimony of Odin and Eternity and the appearance of Galactus himself, Reed is exonerated. Three hours later, Byrne is returned to earth and instructed to write of the days events by the Watcher. 

A day shortly thereafter 
THING #5 
One day. According to OMITTA 5, this story occurs between MT 334 and FF 257 (19-22), but this story probably occurs after FF 262, as the Puppet Master has been waiting for the Thing to return to the Baxter Building for days, sometime after TG 4. This story must occur before ASM 243 and according to the MCP, this story occurs before ASM 242. After visiting Alicia in the hospital, Ben returns to the Baxter Building, where he is attacked by Wonder Man. She-Hulk, on monitor duty at Avengers Mansion (which shows no sign of the hole from FF 257, which would be fixed by now), is alerted to the battle and attacks the Thing. When she starts to lose, Spider-Man arrives to fight Ben. The Thing guesses that Puppet Master has been controlling the heroes and the villain then takes control of Ben. Green trees in New York. 
THING #6 
The same day as TG 5. This story must occur more than a coupla weeks before TG 10. Ben battles and defeats the Puppet Master inside his mind, and destroys several blocks of Manhattan in the process. 

A day not long after that 
THING #7 (1-5) 
One Wednesday. Ben notes that FF 251-260 occurred in the past three weeks. At nine a.m., Ben visits the bandaged Alicia in the hospital. On the way back from the hospital, he encounters Goody Two-Shoes. 
THING #7  FB 
The same day as TG 5 (1-5). During the month before TG 7 (18-22), the Thing stops Goody Two-Shoes from robbing a bank.
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 02 Jun 2004 09:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 02 Jun 2004 01:23 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I'm not going to even TRY quoting that and going through item by item! (Dang librarians!) 

But let it never be said that Paul doesn't do his homework! I am impressed with what you've put together there, bud. Clearly, a lot of work, the type of which I haven't had time to do lately. 

OK, here's where I stand: I don't think 1234 will ever fit perfectly. There are too many disparate references that simply will not work together with what's already been established. 

I fully concede that nestling the series within FF #257 is not ideal. You're quite correct that it doesn't flow particularly well in that time period. BUT it doesn't flow better anywhere else! Within the confines of 257 accomodates more significant and simply more criteria. 

If you place 1234 somewhere else, you've violated more continuity and the characters are still acting out-of-character. Namor gave up his quest for Sue ages ago. Susan requires a conscious effort to stay invisible: why would she have an entire conversation with someone like that? Especially when that someone is blind anyway? Mole Man has never, ever been brutally homicidal -- where the heck does that come from? Ben having feelings for Sue? That was dropped... when? Certainly by FF #8 when Alicia was introduced. 

There have been two comic book writers ever who I've not been able to tolerate because their craft is so poor: Chuck Austen and Grant Morrison. David Anthony Kraft (the first comic book writer I ever thought was just plain bad -- although I've mellowed somewhat since then and now think he's just very sophomoric) is a genius next to Morrison, and he doesn't have the attitude either. I think 1234 was the worst Fantastic Four story ever and I'm sorry I felt that I had to read it for my web site. The story really doesn't hold up internally, even if you allow for the wild mis-characterizations. Even if Morrison did his homework and found a nice, little place to drop this story without throwing continuity to the wind, it still would not mesh with everything around it because it doesn't mesh with the characters at all anyway. 

So, to my mind, using characterization to try to place this series is a load of dingo's kidneys. The only place it might fit by those considerations is in some What If reality. We can only go by what's presented as fact within the story to place it, and the place where more facts fit than anywhere else is between pages 18 and 19 of FF #257. Yes, it requires a few stretches of logic -- the biggest of which is that we have to assume Alicia really wasn't as bad off as is originally suggested, and she actually spends more time recovering from an operation than Annihilus' injuries -- but it does fit. 

If you can find a concrete location somewhere else that satisfies all the continuity issues, I'm willing to listen. But I dare say that anywhere else A) doesn't hold water with established continuity and B) still doesn't "feel" right with surrounding stories because of the characterization.

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Posted: 02 Jun 2004 02:06 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Sean, I'm horrified to hear that you place Chuck Austen and Grant Morrison in the same boat. Ugggh. 

That said -- it's wonderful to see you back here. Are you back for good, or just for the summer? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Jun 2004 02:31 pm    Post subject: Wavering off-topic a bit...
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Sean, I'm horrified to hear that you place Chuck Austen and Grant Morrison in the same boat. Ugggh. 
<<<

They are the only two comic book authors who I've dropped a book over. I've tolerated some lousy drek in my time, but their stuff is just painful. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
That said -- it's wonderful to see you back here. Are you back for good, or just for the summer? 
<<<

Not sure yet. I'm definitely good through most of the summer. (I've got a much-needed vacation in July where I'll probably be without internet access.) I've got two classes in the Fall -- but I don't know how work-intensive those will be. Then one class in the winter -- which is half the course load I've been carrying for the past couple of years. And then I'm done! 

So I'm hoping my Fall classes are light enough that I'll be able to hang around. Those finish up around Thanksgiving and I should almost definitely be back full-time after that.

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Posted: 02 Jun 2004 08:28 pm
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
A) doesn't hold water with established continuity and B) ...doesn't "feel" right with surrounding stories because of the characterization. 
<<<

These are two good points for declaring a story/title non-canonical. It's out of whack from a continuity standpoint and out of whack from a characterization standpoint. I'm inclined to ignore it until such time as it's referenced in a canonical story. That's saying a lot coming from someone who's inclined to give a story the benefit of a doubt concerning canonicity. But there's just plain too much doubt here for my taste. Something's telling me to back away from 1234...slowly. 

Despite my opinion that "4" shares the poor quality of 1234 (well, maybe not that bad, but bad nonetheless) and despite the fact that both share the "Marvel Knights" banner, I'm still holding out for "4" being canonical. It's included in the forthcoming calendar. Of course, glaring continuity and characterization errors could sway me in the other direction, but not without a bit of effort to try to make it fit. 

With 1234, the effort is fruitless, IMHO.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Jun 2004 09:36 am    
By dimadick

Not acquainted to the series myself I resorted to the FFPlaza reviews by Harold Bloomfield. See: :http://www.ffplaza.com/library/?title=Fantastic+Four:+1+2+3+4 

Only to end up more confused. Some questions: 

1) Publication dates. Fantastic Four 1 2 3 4 was published between October, 2001 and January, 2002. There seem to be minimal references to past events. So is there a chance for this series to fit between stories published in 2001/2002 rather than 1983? 

2) Sean identified the FF Headquarters as the Original Baxter Building. But is it that distinct in appearance from Baxter Building II? The later had been introduced in Fantastic Four III #38 in February, 2001. Several months before the publication of the mini-series. 

3) The uniforms have already been identified as being black. Thus presumably placing the story between Fantastic Four #256-416. But could this be instead dismissed as yet another of their relatively recent costume experimentations? 

4) Harold is quite enthusiastic about the character's portrayal. "What we do get is an edgier, darker take on the FF. It's refreshing after all these years to see the group portrayed in a unique fashion that still manages to stay true to the basic elements. " He spends quite some time in describing them as "unique", "refreshing" , an "examination of the dark side" and in the case of Mole Man "grotesque" and devolved. This doesn't particurarly sound as an attempt to creat a continiuty implant but rather an attempt at "modernizing" the characters. Wouldn't it be more in place with other recent portrayals of the characters? 

5) The series seems to point that "As the FF their lives veer from high adventure to everyday drudgery and back. Morrison seems to be saying that they cannot deal with the periods of calm. That these periods actually aggravate the fault lines in their relationships." Suggesting that their frustration during the series is the result of a period of relative inactivitie. 
Wouldn't the period described by Paul be a little too crowded for that? 

6) The hospitalization of Alicia and Franklin during the 1983 has been covered in detail by Paul. Morrison's series instead has the Thing seeking the help of Dr. Victor von Doom in returning to human form, succeeding at it and having a traffic accident at Yancee street. Resulting in his own hospitalization. Shouldn't this events be taken into account as well in determining placement? 

Sorry if the questions have been answered before. Just trying to make sense of the placement.

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Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:26 pm
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!! 

I was going back through some old news reports on my site and came across this quote from Grant Morrison... "Imagine Chris Ware and Jack Kirby had come up with the FF. The story's set out of continuity and takes place at some nebulous time when all main players and the Baxter Building were intact and on the same planet at the same time. Avoiding shifting, self-strangling 'continuity' problems was the only way I could write this with any degree of originality. Hopefully people will accept it simply as an untold tale of the Fantastic Four." 

So Morrison himself declared 1234 non-canon! Wohoo! 

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Posted: 03 Jun 2004 01:12 pm    
By Dhall

If writers don't want to deal with strangling continuity problems, shouldn't they just avoid them, by writing stories set in the present, rather than in the past OR by choosing a period where there are several relativly large open spots where their past story could fit in? 

Just a thought.... 

Dave H

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Posted: 03 Jun 2004 06:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

How about when the writer says this: 

"I have this fantastic idea for a story. I want to examine what it was like for Peter Parker, growing up as a six-year-old black child in Harlem." 

"How does he deal with his powers, at such a young age?" 

"Then we'll follow him through his teen years, where he meets the fiery redhead, Gwen Stacy. What impact did Gwen's death at the hands of Willie Lumpkin have on his Uncle Ben?" 

"Finally, in the third issue, we'll find out the real reason behind his marriage to Flash Thompson." 

"Don't tell me I have to be strangled by forty years of continuity! That'll ruin my totally fantastic idea for a story!" 

Fine. The writer may be correct. He may have the best idea in the history of the written word. But at some point, his story ceases to be about Peter Parker, and don't expect me as a reader to believe that it's Peter Parker. 


watching: scream 2

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Posted: 03 Jun 2004 06:47 pm    
By Dhall

Sounds like a great story for Exiles though.... 

Dave H

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Posted: 03 Jun 2004 08:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier

Quote: 
>>>
So Morrison himself declared 1234 non-canon! Wohoo!  
<<<

WOW! I feel...vindicated!  

Before we go too far with "4," do we have any references to creators' intentions?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Jun 2004 07:52 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Wait, wait, before we toss it -- 

What about Dimadick's suggestion that this is the 2nd Baxter Building? And therefore a relatively modern-day FF? Could that work? (Or, better phrased, can anyone prove that that CAN'T work?) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Jun 2004 07:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
What about Dimadick's suggestion that this is the 2nd Baxter Building? And therefore a relatively modern-day FF? Could that work? (Or, better phrased, can anyone prove that that CAN'T work?)  
<<<

I originally thought 1234 should be placed after the appearance of the second Baxter Building, and I tossed this out long ago. Two problems come immediately to mind: 

The costumes are all wrong. 

Ben and Alicia are boyfriend and girlfriend in 1234. They broke up long before the appearance of Baxter Building II. 


The creator noted that this was non-canonical. I'd like to put this one to bed.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Jun 2004 10:16 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

The creator also hoped that the readers would accept it as an "untold tale of the FF" ... which seems to fly in the face of his "out of continuity" statement in the same paragraph. I wonder what he REALLY meant? 

If I loved the FF more, I'd fight more to find a place for it. Since I don't, though ... well, whatever you and Sean decide. 

I still think it's weird to throw normal-seeming things out like that, though. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jun 2004 04:21 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The creator also hoped that the readers would accept it as an "untold tale of the FF" ... which seems to fly in the face of his "out of continuity" statement in the same paragraph. I wonder what he REALLY meant? 
<<<

He meant that he hoped it would fit in continuity but he wasn't going to bother his sorry butt to do any homework. 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If I loved the FF more, I'd fight more to find a place for it. Since I don't, though ... well, whatever you and Sean decide. 

I still think it's weird to throw normal-seeming things out like that, though. 
<<< 

As noted above, the continuity simply does not work. Plus, I don't recognize any of the characters in the story. Plus, the writer said it was not canon. 

I say we chuck this piece of drek and never speak of it again!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 04:31 am    
By dimadick

"Ben and Alicia are boyfriend and girlfriend in 1234. They broke up long before the appearance of Baxter Building II." 

Their first contact in some time was a letter in Fantastic Four III #37 (January, 2001). Then they briefly settle together in Sunshine City, Florida in Fantastic Four #45 (September, 2001). They are no longer in love according to Ben's declaration in this issue. And that would be her last appearance till Knights 4 #1 (April, 2004). Where she has settled back in Ney York and re-established contact with the Fantastic Four or at least Susan. 

Both events happening behind the scenes somewhere during the last three years. Could 1234 be placed after Fantastic Four III #45 and establish placement for both events? By the way how does Morrison indicate that Ben and Alicia are a couple?

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 07:46 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

In 1234 #1, Johnny says to Ben, "Go pick a fight with the Hulk. Or better yet, call Alicia and tell the woman who loves you just how much everyone hates you." In the context of the conversation, Johnny was berating Ben for feeling sorry for himself; the implication is that, after all, Ben has a girlfriend and that he should count his blessings. Johnny wouldn't have said this if things were long over between Ben and Alicia.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 11:36 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Beating a dead horse, but... 

Quote: 
>>>
Plus, the writer said it was not canon. 
<<<

So did the writer of "Marvel: the End". 

It's a sad day when a Grant Morrison / Jae Lee collaboration is referred to as "a piece of drek". Ah well -- like I said, if I cared more or knew more about the FF I'd fight more for its inclusion. But since there's no X-character appearances ... well, Sean, I guess your opinion outweighs mine.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 04:51 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I'd take Morrison's comment to mean that the story is not intended to be part of the Marvel Universe, although it's intended to be read on the basis that it's somewhere in the nebulous past. Out of continuity, in other words. 

I have to say that I have grave reservations about the approach being taken in parts of this thread, which seems to be to complain about Marvel publishing miniseries which don't fit with continuity, even though the continuity problems take five paragraphs to demonstrate. The Marvel Universe accommodates many stories with problems far more blatant than that, and does so by recognising the errors as such and ignoring them.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 06:55 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Plus, the writer said it was not canon. 

So did the writer of "Marvel: the End". 
<<<
<<<

Ergo, that's not canon either.  



jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It's a sad day when a Grant Morrison / Jae Lee collaboration is referred to as "a piece of drek".  
<<<


Jae Lee is fine. Not a personal favorite of mine, but I can appreciate what he does. 

Morrison, though, is a self-indulgent hack who thinks that talk of open sexuality is sufficient to be considered wildly original and clever. He strikes me very much as somone who has been able to build a career on his cult of personality alone, and has managed to convince his followers that a vague sense of snobbery and disdain for history and precedent is actually indicative of some sort of intellectual superiority. 

In many respects, he reminds me of my cousin. He's a fanboy with delusions of grandeur and not one ounce of talent to back it up. He puts up a facade of intelligence in an effort to keep up with the rest of the family, but when you press him on any subject, he shows that he really doesn't know what he's talking about. His attempts at originality or cleverness or individuality are actually very conformist to the sub-culture to which he aspires, and he fails to recognize that subservience. His best, most wildly original concept for a new comic in the past few years has been "Ultimate New Warriors" in which Justice was beaten by his father and takes it out on Firestar. I couldn't figure out if that was doubly or triply banal. 

The only difference between him and Morrison, that I can see, is that Morrison must talk a better game to be able to get writing gigs in the first place. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Ah well -- like I said, if I cared more or knew more about the FF I'd fight more for its inclusion. But since there's no X-character appearances ... well, Sean, I guess your opinion outweighs mine.  
<<<


Glad we both see eye to eye on this one! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 07:48 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Ergo, that's not canon either.  
<<<

Except, it is. That same writer went on to reference it in the "Thanos" series. 

"The End" didn't fit so well into established continuity either -- until we took hammers to what we had previously established. 

Paul O. has a point -- the Marvel Universe contains far larger canonicity/chronology problems than those shown in "1234"... 

Just sayin'.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 08:01 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

THE END is in a somewhat different position, because that was a self-cancelling miniseries. In that sense, the writer was correct in saying that it was out of continuity - except for Thanos himself, it doesn't form part of mainstream history. It's off to the side in an alternate timeline, of course, but such stories are regularly described as being "out of continuity", in the broad sense of that term.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 08:03 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I get the feeling that comic writers use the term "out of continuity" a bit differently, and more loosely, than we do... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 08:54 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I agree. I've seen the term used to denote everything from "not in the Marvel Universe at all" through to "in the Marvel Universe but doesn't particularly interact with the other X-books." The latter usage seems to have arisen because of the tendency to (mis)use the word "continuity" to denote heavy interaction between titles.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2004 01:04 am    
By John Simons

Sorry to be reviving an old dead thread like this, but the recent posting of Paul B.'s calendar has renewed reservations I've been having about placing Knights 4 early in the Waid run, a decision that makes no sense to me whatsoever. 

Now right up front let me say that I've only read the first two issues of Knights 4 and no issues of Human Torch, so someone needs to give me a heads up if I'm missing some vital info. But based on the Waid run and 4 #1&2, it seems like the best place for Knights 4 (at least the first storyarc) is between FF 511 and 512. While the fit is far from seamless it just seems infinitely more sensible than the current placement. 

Harrison wrote: 
>>>
Specifically, in both books they are newly bankrupt, under completely different circumstances. In both books, they have to get real jobs, and in both books, they act like this is the very first time they've ever had to go through this. 

How can being broke be totally new *twice*? 
<<<

See, I can't find any mention in the Waid books of the FF ever being bankrupt. At the end of 508 Reed has to sign over their patents, and in 509 Sue mentions that their other assets "are frozen until this nonsense about treason is cleared up." Having your assets frozen is not the same as losing them, and wouldn't necessitate filing for bankruptcy. 

As for finding jobs, the only person with a new job in FF is Johnny, but that's just because he wants to be way the hell away from Reed, who he is totally disgusted with. 


SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
I'm still getting caught up on my chronologizing, but I saw that Paul B had put his initial placement of FF issues like so... 

FF 60 
Knights 4 
FF 61-66 
Human Torch 2-12 
FF 67+ 

Problem is, this doesn't work. Johnny is clearly identified as being the Fantastic Four's CFO in Human Torch #2, placing it at least after FF #61. But, he also spends much of the next several issues acting completely ignorant of firefighting, which he clearly shows a penchant for in 4 4-5. But then there's this whole pesky issue of the FF's finances being swindled. Easy enough to throw 4 a little later, but then why didn't Johnny get reprimanded by anyone for screwing up and why does he remain CFO? 
<<<

Are you implying that Johnny is responsible for Terry Giocometti running off with the FF's money? Because the CFO in MK 4 is clearly Jed Schultz, NOT Johnny. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
4 #1 (1-6) 
<snip> 
Naturally, Franklin must be quite a bit older than eight, but the age clue does place this story after FF3 60 (3-9), in which he is noted as being "seven." Franklins next birthday (supposedly his ninth) is noted as approaching in FF 505, which occurs after the disfiguring of Reeds face (Reeds face is fine in this story).  
<<<

Franklin's post-505 is "supposedly his ninth" based on what? Does this come from the book, or is it extrapolation on your part? The indication seems to me that the birthday in 4 #1 is the birthday that is mentioned as approaching in 505. 


Quote: 
>>>
Cap and She-Hulk appear at Franklins party  this must be the earliest appearance of the costume She-Hulk wears from A3 65 on; she is seen again in her old costume only on one panel after this point, in A3 63 (which occurs after the Christmas of IM3 63).  
<<<

...or, this party occurs later than it is placed, and She-Hulk's costume choices suddenly become consistent. 


Quote: 
>>>
The FF are told that their money manager, Terry Giocometti, embezzled their funds, left them broke, and fled the country; this is a clue that this story occurs before Sue decides to make Johnny the financial manager of FF Inc. in FF3 61. 
<<<

Not necessarily. Johnny clearly is not the CFO in 509, he is working as an auto mechanic. Might he not have stepped down as CFO after Ben's death and his desire to get as far away from Reed as possible? Only to take the job back later after Ben's return? 


Quote: 
>>>
Thursday, October 17 
4 #1  FB (6p3-6p6) 
One day. The FF pays their debt to the City of New York. 
<<<

Are you sure you mean #1? All I see on page 6 is Sue throwing a tantrum. 

Here is how I see the FF chronolgy, based on the issues I've read anyway. 

FF3 61: Sue appoints Johnny the Chief Financial Officer of the FF. 

FF 500: Reed is scarred by Doom. 

FF 508: Thing "dies". Reed agrees to turn over patents to the government in exchange for having charges against the team dropped. Their assets are frozen until the paperwork is sorted out. Johnny moves out and becomes an auto mechanic. Reed brings in an old friend, Jed Schultz, to take over the job of CFO, but unfortunately Terry Giocometti has seen his opening and is already getting his hand in the cookie jar. 

FF 511: Reed's face is healed by God, FF return from Heaven with Ben. 

4 1: Franklin's birthday. Giocometti has run off with their money. Congress has decided to stop funding the FF. The fact that Johnny can't get endorsement work is completely consistent with the fact that everyone distrusts them after the invasion of Latveria (of course it would be nice if there was dialogue to that effect in this issue) The city tries to evict the FF. 

4 2: again, although it would nice if this were spelled out in the dialogue, it makes sense that the anti-FF sentiment would contribute to their difficulty in finding new residences and decent jobs. Reed tries to decode the stock market. 

Again, I don't have 4 #3-up, but presumably the FF must regain the Baxter Building sooner or later. If this series is to be canon, this is something which will have to be resolved no matter where the series in placed. 

FF 512: The FF are back in the Baxter Building. Johnny has retaken the position of CFO and is working on ways to make some new money. Reed is back to designing new patents for this purpose. 

Now, as long as the FF are not residing in the Baxter Building and are poor in the Marvel Knights series, it must take place in an uniterrupted chunk. Between 511 and 512 just seems to work the best to me. If Johnny is the CFO during his solo series, then it can either take place prior to 508 or after 512. Again, I don't have these issues, so if I am missing some vital piece of the puzzle please clue me in.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2004 11:18 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Now right up front let me say that I've only read the first two issues of Knights 4 and no issues of Human Torch, so someone needs to give me a heads up if I'm missing some vital info. But based on the Waid run and 4 #1&2, it seems like the best place for Knights 4 (at least the first storyarc) is between FF 511 and 512. While the fit is far from seamless it just seems infinitely more sensible than the current placement. 
<<<

Gotta disagree with you there. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
See, I can't find any mention in the Waid books of the FF ever being bankrupt. At the end of 508 Reed has to sign over their patents, and in 509 Sue mentions that their other assets "are frozen until this nonsense about treason is cleared up." Having your assets frozen is not the same as losing them, and wouldn't necessitate filing for bankruptcy. 
<<<

I think you're using the term 'bankruptcy' too strictly. Most people aren't very versed in what exactly filing for bankruptcy means in the first place and, coupled with the conversational style of a message board, the term tends to be used much more broadly. I think he was using the term to simply mean that the FF don't have cash on hand. 

In both books, the concept was (at least in part) the FF without the wealth that they usually have. Waid handled it very differently (and much more logically, IMO) than Aguirre-Sacasa. Waid has a simple, effective solution that's comes from the types of characters the FF are. Aguirre-Sacasa has a ill-conceived solution that doesn't make sense for the characters. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Are you implying that Johnny is responsible for Terry Giocometti running off with the FF's money? Because the CFO in MK 4 is clearly Jed Schultz, NOT Johnny. 
<<<

Here's where the one of the many problems lie. Johnny is clearly and definitively set up as CFO in FF #61 and remains AT LEAST until #501. And in Knights 4 #1, they learn that all their money is stolen. 

The problem is that: why would Reed have a readily available solution to being without cash in FF #501, but then resorts to get a menial tech job at some nameless corporation in Knights 4? Why not whip out another dozen new gizmos and sell them for a couple million? Story-wise, it doesn't make sense to reverse the order like that. 

There are very definite problems with the story order as I listed it, but there are FEWER problems that can more easily be explained than if we had Knights 4 occur as late as you suggest. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Franklin's post-505 is "supposedly his ninth" based on what? Does this come from the book, or is it extrapolation on your part? The indication seems to me that the birthday in 4 #1 is the birthday that is mentioned as approaching in 505. 
<<<

I believe there was specific mention of Franklin's eigth birthday in the main book. I want to say back when Claremont was writing it, but my memory might be a bit off there. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Johnny clearly is not the CFO in 509, he is working as an auto mechanic. Might he not have stepped down as CFO after Ben's death and his desire to get as far away from Reed as possible? Only to take the job back later after Ben's return? 
<<<

Or he could hold down his job as CFO while he's working as a mechanic, which would actually make more sense. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Again, I don't have 4 #3-up, but presumably the FF must regain the Baxter Building sooner or later. If this series is to be canon, this is something which will have to be resolved no matter where the series in placed. 
<<<

The last few issues have conveniently avoided the issue altogether by having the FF go on a camping trip. But, yes, the series will almost have to be self-contained until they return the Baxter Building. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Now, as long as the FF are not residing in the Baxter Building and are poor in the Marvel Knights series, it must take place in an uniterrupted chunk. Between 511 and 512 just seems to work the best to me. If Johnny is the CFO during his solo series, then it can either take place prior to 508 or after 512. Again, I don't have these issues, so if I am missing some vital piece of the puzzle please clue me in. 
<<<

The other problem is Johnny becoming a fireman. (Hence the original title of this thread.) In Human Torch, Johnny meets up with an old high school classmate, who has since become a fireman. To help solve a msytery, Johnny decides to join the fire department to investigate from the inside. Johnny is then shown learning the ropes of firefighting, clearly having no real knowledge of traditional firefighting techniques. 

This, by itself, would suggest placement as you noted. But then we have the absurd notion that Reed came up with a solution to their cash flow problem in FF #501 and forgot it completely (and couldn't think of anything remotely comprable) by Knights 4 #1. As a main plot element in both books, the bankruptcy in Knights 4 has to occur before the one in Fantatic Four until and unless Waid or Aguirre-Sacasa specifically write something to explain why Reed no longer has his intellect or memory. 

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2004 01:44 pm    
By John Simons

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
This, by itself, would suggest placement as you noted. But then we have the absurd notion that Reed came up with a solution to their cash flow problem in FF #501 and forgot it completely (and couldn't think of anything remotely comprable) by Knights 4 #1. As a main plot element in both books, the bankruptcy in Knights 4 has to occur before the one in Fantatic Four until and unless Waid or Aguirre-Sacasa specifically write something to explain why Reed no longer has his intellect or memory. 
<<<

Thanks for the reply, Sean. 

I do intend a more thorough rebuttal later tonight, but I'll be late for work if I get into it just now. For the moment, can you elaborate a bit on what solution you think Reed came up with for their cash flow problem in 501? I just took a look through it, and all Reed seems to do is sulk and then travel through time with Johnny. I couldn't find any references to their finances.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jul 2004 08:42 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I don't have the book in front of me but it was a real quickie. Johnny said something about finances, and Reed said something to the effect of, "Here, sell this invention I just created. Should be worth a million or two. Oh, and get Microsoft to pay us the $500,000 they owe us for licensing fees. And I'll have another dozen inventions we can sell whipped up in the next hour." It wasn't more than one or two panels. 

And that's precisely how Reed should respond to a financial crisis. This whole, "Oh, dear, what shall I do? I suppose I'll have to get a low-paying tech support job" idea is a complete load of garbage. Yeah, I can buy into the notion of Reed not being able to predict the stock market -- that was even established by Stan Lee back in the day -- but this is supposedly the world's greatest genius ever and he can't figure out how to make a few extra bucks?!?

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jul 2004 12:30 pm    
By John Simons

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
In both books, the concept was (at least in part) the FF without the wealth that they usually have. Waid handled it very differently (and much more logically, IMO) than Aguirre-Sacasa. Waid has a simple, effective solution that's comes from the types of characters the FF are. Aguirre-Sacasa has a ill-conceived solution that doesn't make sense for the characters. 
<<<

Well, I'm certainly not arguing that Knights 4 is the best-written or has spot-on characterization. There's a definite reason I stopped buying it after issue 2 (whereas I've not only followed the whole Waid run, but recently picked up the HC even though I already had the issues in comic form) 

But unless you are arguing that 4 should be non-canon altogther (maybe you are, your post doesn't make this clear) Aguirre-Sacasa's shortcomings seem to me an entirely seperate issue from where the books fall chronologically. 


Quote: 
>>>
The problem is that: why would Reed have a readily available solution to being without cash in FF #501, but then resorts to get a menial tech job at some nameless corporation in Knights 4? Why not whip out another dozen new gizmos and sell them for a couple million? Story-wise, it doesn't make sense to reverse the order like that. 
<<<

Well, I'm not sure if there's any way we can argue this if you can't access your books, but there is no mention of inventions or Microsoft in 501. I think you must have the issue number mixed up. If you think about it, are the FF even having money problems circa 501, which is just after "Unthinkable"? To my recollection their money problems in the Waid books stem from Reed's actions in the "Authoritative Action' storyline, which runs through 503-508. 

Are you sure you aren't recalling this scene: 

"Here. Made this cure for acne. Show it to Revlon and tell them we want a check by Friday. I've been filing lucrative new patents by the dozen..." 

Because that scene just took place recently, in 512-- which is after my suggested placement of Knights 4 and would seem to answer your objections about Reed. 


Quote: 
>>>
I believe there was specific mention of Franklin's eigth birthday in the main book. I want to say back when Claremont was writing it, but my memory might be a bit off there. 
<<<

Bah! And you call yourself an FF expert!  

My Claremont collection is spotty, so I can't help ya there. 


Quote: 
>>>
Or he could hold down his job as CFO while he's working as a mechanic, which would actually make more sense. 
<<<

Ben is dead, the team is essentially disbanded, and Reed has made a shambles of their finances. Johnny moves out. In what way would it "make more sense" for Johnny to still be the CFO when there's no team, he hates Reed, and he has an entire other job? Given the level of disillusionment Johnny is feeling, I think it makes more sense if he said "take this job and shove it" 

Glad to hear that Johnny's fireman chronology works out. 


Quote: 
>>>
And that's precisely how Reed should respond to a financial crisis. This whole, "Oh, dear, what shall I do? I suppose I'll have to get a low-paying tech support job" idea is a complete load of garbage. Yeah, I can buy into the notion of Reed not being able to predict the stock market -- that was even established by Stan Lee back in the day -- but this is supposedly the world's greatest genius ever and he can't figure out how to make a few extra bucks?!? 
<<<

I still need to be clear when and where you think Reed's finances solution stems from. Under my scenario, the reason Reed is not whipping off patents in Knights 4, and taking the more unorthodox approach of trying to "solve" the stock market is because he is emotionally overwhelmed by recent events (the invasion, hiring Giocometti, the public backlash) and maybe he isn't thinking as clearly as he might be. Yes, the FF's actions in Knights 4 are a bit weird, but as I said that's a problem no matter where you stick these books.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jul 2004 12:57 am    
By John Simons

So if nobody refutes my arguments for a week, does that mean I win? 

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jul 2004 06:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

The debate is far from over. I'm biding my time, waiting for 4 to unfold a bit more. In the meantime, I'm leaving 4 roughly in the part of the calendar in which I placed it, although I moved issues #5-7 a few weeks later to accommodate the winter references of issue #8, which occurs a "few weeks" after issue #7. 

So far so good with Johnny, by the way. He still hasn't trained to be a fireman. All he's been doing so far is cleaning the firehouse, as noted in issue #8. But, of course, we'll see where this goes.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jul 2004 12:04 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I haven't had a chance to dig out all the relevant issues, but I did scan through the summaries on my site. I'm willing to admit that your placement might work but I'd like to make see what other issues might come up.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2004 02:13 am    
By david

Quote: 
>>>
Morrison, though, is a self-indulgent hack who thinks that talk of open sexuality is sufficient to be considered wildly original and clever. He strikes me very much as somone who has been able to build a career on his cult of personality alone, and has managed to convince his followers that a vague sense of snobbery and disdain for history and precedent is actually indicative of some sort of intellectual superiority. 

In many respects, he reminds me of my cousin. He's a fanboy with delusions of grandeur and not one ounce of talent to back it up. He puts up a facade of intelligence in an effort to keep up with the rest of the family, but when you press him on any subject, he shows that he really doesn't know what he's talking about. His attempts at originality or cleverness or individuality are actually very conformist to the sub-culture to which he aspires, and he fails to recognize that subservience. His best, most wildly original concept for a new comic in the past few years has been "Ultimate New Warriors" in which Justice was beaten by his father and takes it out on Firestar. I couldn't figure out if that was doubly or triply banal. 

The only difference between him and Morrison, that I can see, is that Morrison must talk a better game to be able to get writing gigs in the first place. 
<<<


Have you read Morrison's work besides FF: 1234 from Marvel or DC? 

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2004 07:22 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Yup. I thought all that was garbage, too. In fact, if I had only read 1234, I wouldn't criticize him beyond that series because I don't believe that one four-issue series is sufficient to relay how talented a writer is (or isn't). But I've read Morrison's work in a number of places with a number of different artists, and it's all been dreadful.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 05 Nov 2004 01:04 pm    Post subject: Angel / Archangel
By bgilmore

Where is Angel right now? I lost tract of him when the X Men teams switched up and I can not figure out what happened to him. 
Billy

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Nov 2004 01:07 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

He last appeared in X-Men #157, where it was stated that he'd be going to Genosha. Thus far, he hasn't turned up there. 

He'll next be appearing in Spectacular Spider-Man v2 #21, at the Thing's annual poker game. 

And presumably he'll eventually show up in Excalibur v3... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 03:45 pm    
By bgilmore

I have been looking through some other websites about Angel / Archangel and I have found some comics that are not listed on your site are these real? Thanks 
Billy 

Adventure in Fear #20 
Phoenix the Untold Story #1 
Sentry/ X Men 
Sentry #5 
Sentry/FF/Hulk/Spiderman/X Men vs Void #5

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 03:46 pm    
By bgilmore

Also Amazing Adventures Volume 2 #12

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 05:02 pm    
By Enda80

Untold Story takes place on Earth-811, per Phoenix's Handbook Entry, numerical designation from FF Encyclopedia.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 06:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

bgilmore wrote: 
>>>
Also Amazing Adventures Volume 2 #12 
<<<

It's a flashback, with no new information. 


watching: smallville

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2004 07:23 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

bgilmore wrote: 
>>>
I have been looking through some other websites about Angel / Archangel and I have found some comics that are not listed on your site are these real? Thanks 
Billy 

Adventure in Fear #20 
<<<

Flashback, with no new information. 


watching: collins-riverside beauty walk

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2004 11:19 am    
By bgilmore

What about the Sentry comics then? 
Billy

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2004 01:12 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

The Sentry comics are real, yes. Archangel appeared in -- from memory -- #4, 5, and the "Sentry vs. the Void" one-shot. 

He also appeared in the framing sequences of all four other one-shots: 

Sentry/Fantastic Four 
Sentry/Spider-Man 
Sentry/X-Men 
Senrty/Hulk 

...but it's basically the same exact scene each time. 

Archangel also had a hefty starring role in the flashback scenes in "Sentry/X-Men". It's probably his biggest presence in the entire series. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 14 Jul 2004 06:27 am    Post subject: The Marvel Calendar is Here
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

At long last, we have a draft of the Marvel Calendar, covering the period from just before Maximum Security to the near present. 

Page 1 = July-December; Highlight: Maximum Security 
Page 2 = January-June; Highlight: Kang War 
Page 3 = July-December; Highlight: DD becomes the new Kingpin 
Page 4 = January-June; Highlight: Riot at Xavier's & Magneto's Return 

Be sure to read the introductory notes on page 1. Please note that I've made a few changes since I submitted this, most notably: 

Page 3 
INHUMANS v4 #4 is now on one day (September 3) instead of two. 

Page 3 
SENTINEL #7-12 have been moved to occupy the span from October 30 through November 8. 

Also, ignore the "/1" that I used to use to designate the first story in a multi-story comic. That practice is not consistent with MCP convention. All those "/1"s have been stripped out of my master copy of the calendar. 

I leave it up to you all to make comments and suggestions. Enjoy.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jul 2004 01:47 pm    
By lkseitz

Wow! An impressive piece of work. How long have you been working on this again? 

One question, and I'm not really asking to be funny (well, maybe a little). When the moon is shown in a night time story in a comic, is it ever not full? 

Upon further examination, I see a full moon must be considered artistic license (or "topical.") It was full on July 9, 10, 12, 15, 16, 18, 20, 27, 29, and 31. And it was a waxing crescent on the 26th and waxing half on the 28th. Darn those comic book physics! 
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 15 Jul 2004 02:45 am    
By Jopili

One comment: great work. 
Thanks, Paul.

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Posted: 15 Jul 2004 06:59 pm    
By StAkAr Karnak

It stood out to me that July 4 is marked "Independence Day". Although most of the stories take place in the US, it still gives the calendar an American-centric tilt. 

Otherwise, very impressive. 

$0.02 
- SK

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Posted: 15 Jul 2004 11:17 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, Paul, here's the first of my minor corrections/questions...probably be more to come as I read through this massive document! But as I've mentioned, this looks most impressive!  

Okay, let's start with page 1: 

July 2nd: 

You wrote: 

Quote: 
>>>
HULK ANNUAL 2000  FB (10p3) 
One day. According to the MCP, this flashback occurs between M: DS 4 and H3 17. 
<<<

I'm not quite sure what this means. Are you saying that the MCP disagrees with your placement of this flashback? Because technically you have it between INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #12 (20) and INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #12 (21-39) (in terms of Banner's own chronology anyway)... 

And I don't see M: DS anywhere on the calender either, (unless I'm blind).  

July 4th: 

I believe I've mentioned this before, but going by Captain America's chronology, this HAS to be the date of CA: Sentinel of Liberty #1 from way back in 1998. That story was a flash forward tale to a July 4th when Sharon Carter was in the head of SHIELD, which only happened between CA3 #31 and Nick Fury's return around CA3 #45. So that's an entry which could go on the calender. 

July 11th: 


You say: 
Quote: 
>>>
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #17 
The same day as H3 16. According to the MCP, this story occurs between H 00-FB (10p2) and BP3 22.  
<<<

Same question as above. Except here I believe you list the FB as (10p2) and list the flashback on July 2nd as (10p3). 

Sept. 13th: 

You're entry for the Punisher issues 9 thru 11 is a bit jumbled up. Punisher 9 is connected to THUNDERBOLTS #50 (37) and yes, Issues 9 thru 11 happen on one day. 


But I don't see 12 of Punisher vol. 5 on the calender anywhere. Issue 12 starts off the same night as issue 11, but then breaks off onto dates spread out later on, (forget how at the moment, but should be in my review...) 


Sept. 1st: 

You list Punisher as appearing in MAXIMUM SECURITY #1  FB (7p2-8) 

And I believe the Punisher appears in the various Marvel Knights comic issues that you have in September as well. 

Well, this could be a problem, going by the following: In PUN5 #9 thru 11, Frank looks pretty well banged up from the fact that he was shot and beat up back in Issue 6 or 7 of this volume of Punisher...I don't have Maximum Security or the Marvel Knights series, but I'm willing to be Frank doesn't look beat up and bandaged up in those issues...Frank really wasn't back up on his feet till issue 9, (was in bed from issues 7 to 9 I believe...can't recall entirely, as I don't have those issues in front of me at the moment)... 

More to come later...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Jul 2004 07:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I'm not quite sure what this means. Are you saying that the MCP disagrees with your placement of this flashback? Because technically you have it between INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #12 (20) and INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #12 (21-39) (in terms of Banner's own chronology anyway)... 

And I don't see M: DS anywhere on the calender either, (unless I'm blind).  
<<<

I'm saying I used She-Hulk's chronology in the MCP as a clue to calendar placement. You don't see Magneto: Dark Seduction* here because it occurs in June, before the July 1 date that begins this portion of the calendar. 
(*Those darned emoticons!) 

Quote: 
>>>
I believe I've mentioned this before, but going by Captain America's chronology, this HAS to be the date of CA: Sentinel of Liberty #1 from way back in 1998. That story was a flash forward tale to a July 4th when Sharon Carter was in the head of SHIELD, which only happened between CA3 #31 and Nick Fury's return around CA3 #45. So that's an entry which could go on the calender.  
<<<

Yes, it could! Consider it entered on my master copy. Thanks, Kevin. BTW, CA:SL 1* has a reference to Falcon recovering from the Mad Thinker's "cerebomb." I don't believe this is a reference to any published story, so I filled it in as a [BTS] story on July 1. 
(*Even though set in the future from the reader's perspective, we still can note the framing sequence in CA:SL 1 simply as CA:SL 1 without a flash-forward code.) 


Because they're potentially thorny, the Punisher comments will sit on file for a while. Thanks for bringing them up.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Jul 2004 10:12 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Re: emoticons... 

Paul, there's a "disable Smilies" button above the Preview and Submit keys when you post, that leaves all emoticon codes like ":D" as text. 

Alternately, as you can see, I edited Kevin's post -- making "M:DS" into M: DS". This also kept it as text, since ": D", with a space between the colon and the D, isn't an emoticon code. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Jul 2004 10:24 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Jeph! I'll have to remember that whole disable smiley's button...could come in handy! I might have done some exploring and figured out how to fix it on my own, but by that point last night, my brain wasn't working any longer, and it was time for sleep.  

Quote: 
Because they're potentially thorny, the Punisher comments will sit on file for a while. Thanks for bringing them up. 


Easiest solution I can think of is to move PUN5 up the calender a little ways, so that when Punisher appears in the final scene of PUN5 #12, (where he's all healed up) this could happen in September, cause Frank appears healed by then... 

But damage to his face and body prevent Frank's appearing anywhere between PUN5 issues 7 through 12, (first half)...though if someone wants to argue otherwise, I'd love to see how we could make this work... 

I'll have more comments to follow as I study more... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 Jul 2004 11:02 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, I finally finished reading Page 2 of the Calender, ( Whew! ) This is the mostly tightly knit of all of the pages of the calender, as things had to be worked around the Kang War, the gap in Thor, and Daredevil's outing. I know that this section was often the point of much contention, but I for one think that in the end, this section of the calender has turned out great! Still, I'll point out some questions/comments: 

Feb. 8th: 

The listings for Av3 #40 and X-Force #115 are bunched together, and need seperated, (if it's not already been done). 

March 1st: A small nitpick: 

You wrote: 

Quote: 
>>>
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #27 
One night. Asleep at Doc Samsons house, Bruce Banner has a dream involving Grey Hulk and Devil Hulk. 

INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #28 
The same night as H3 27. Banners dream concludes after Stupid Hulk and Snake Hulk join in. 
<<< 


We either need to settle on calling him Devil Hulk or Snake Hulk, (they're both the same character). See, I told you it was a small nitpick.  

March 22nd: Another brief nitpick. 

You have Hulk #29 happening here, and you note the deterioration of Banner's condition here. Well, you have Banner appearing the day before in Defenders #5, 6, and 7, (where he WAS aflicted with ALS, but not NEARLY this bad off as seen in Hulk #29). Yes, I feel that's the correct order of Banner's appearances, but it's too abrupt a deterioration...I feel a little bit of time needs put between Defenders #7 and Hulk #29. Now I know time spaces are limited through here thanks to that wonderful little thing called the Kang War, so it's not like we can move Defenders #5 thru 7 back a few months...but I believe we could move Defenders back up the calender a bit, after the events of the Kang War prelude in late February but before the date on which we have Hulk #29. I can buy his condition deteriorating over a few short weeks or days, but not the very next day. 

How about moving Defenders #5-7 to right after Hulk's appearance in Tbolts #57 on March 11th? Samson's interview of Banner in Defenders #5, wherein he asks where Banner has been disapearing to, could be a reference to the Defenders curse, AND to Hulk's being sucked away due to Graviton's powers... 


Or heck, maybe we could move Defenders #5-7 a little ways before that... 

Finally, 

April 1st: 

PP:SM #33. This is out of order with the rest of the PP:SM issue entries. Why?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Jul 2004 06:22 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The listings for Av3 #40 and X-Force #115 are bunched together, and need seperated, (if it's not already been done).  
<<<

Things appear fine in the master copy. 


Quote: 
>>>
We either need to settle on calling him Devil Hulk or Snake Hulk 
<<<

Devil Hulk it is. 


Quote: 
>>>
How about moving Defenders #5-7 to right after Hulk's appearance in Tbolts #57 on March 11th?  
<<<

How about March 14? We still need DEF2 6 to occur "several days" before DEF2 8, and I suppose 11 days isn't stretching it too far. Of course, with Banner's unique physiology, you never know what could happen -- a rapid deterioration is entirely possible. 


Quote: 
>>>
Or heck, maybe we could move Defenders #5-7 a little ways before that...  
<<<

Namorita must appear in DEF2 5 after TB 58. 


Quote: 
>>>
PP:SM #33. This is out of order with the rest of the PP:SM issue entries. Why? 
<<<

Antonio and I worked this out. PPSM2 33 occurs on the anniversary of Ben Parker's death*, and that limits its placement on the calendar. Plus we have opening day for the Mets. Rather than make the references topical, we felt that we could place PPSM2 33 out of sequence without harming Spidey's continuity. 

*Catch the irony of the April Fools' Day placement; the day Peter Parker paid for the most foolish decision of his life, letting the burglar go.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Jul 2004 07:16 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Things appear fine in the master copy. 
<<<

Cool. I wondered if this was happening on the master copy or here on the website, but either way, I figured I'd bring it to your attention. 



Quote: 
>>>
How about March 14? We still need DEF2 6 to occur "several days" before DEF2 8, and I suppose 11 days isn't stretching it too far. Of course, with Banner's unique physiology, you never know what could happen -- a rapid deterioration is entirely possible. 
<<<

Yes, that's true, and it probably was a more rapid deterioration...I just didn't think it happened overnight, (thus, my advocating the slight rearrangement). Yes, March 14 suits me just fine. 


Quote: 
>>>
Namorita must appear in DEF2 5 after TB 58.  
<<<

Ah, yes, that's right... 


Quote: 
>>>
Antonio and I worked this out. PPSM2 33 occurs on the anniversary of Ben Parker's death*, and that limits its placement on the calendar. Plus we have opening day for the Mets. Rather than make the references topical, we felt that we could place PPSM2 33 out of sequence without harming Spidey's continuity. 

*Catch the irony of the April Fools' Day placement; the day Peter Parker paid for the most foolish decision of his life, letting the burglar go. 
<<<

Okay, sounds good, (for now). By that, I mean: what if later on they do another "anniversary of Ben's death" issue, and it's set in the fall or winter? But that's the problem with these types of issues. Not much you can do, I suppose. 

Okay, thanks for the answers, Paul. More questions/comments to come...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Jul 2004 08:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
what if later on they do another "anniversary of Ben's death" issue, and it's set in the fall or winter?  
<<<

Then the inconsistency in continuity forces us to declare one of the anniversaries topical. As it happens, the April 1 placement is consistent with the spring setting for Amazing Fantasy #15 previously extrapolated from the Marvel Saga and Olshevsky's indexes.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Jul 2004 07:54 pm    
By Username

Wow. That's impressive. 

Is this the only portion that's been done so far? I heard mention elsewhere of a "year 1" calendar.

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Posted: 28 Jul 2004 09:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Is this the only portion that's been done so far? I heard mention elsewhere of a "year 1" calendar. 
<<<

This is the only portion in publishable format, with exact dates and a more exhaustive level of research than other portions. We're working backwards; the chunk I'm working on now runs from Infinity War to where this calendar starts, and we'll be tackling some MCP gap issues as we move along. 

Although they're not ready for prime time and don't involve exact dates yet (that won't happen until we work our way back to them), Years 1 through 12 are generally outlined, thanks to the Marvel Saga, Olshevsky's indexes, the MCP, and some research I did for Avengers: Year By Year on the Avengers Assemble web site. 

I hope folks are patient; it took us the better part of two years to crank out the current posted calendar, and of course, I have a dozen or two edits on this one already.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Jul 2004 08:35 am    
By Username

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I hope folks are patient; it took us the better part of two years to crank out the current posted calendar, and of course, I have a dozen or two edits on this one already. 
<<<

Please don't take me the wrong way, I understand and wasn't trying to make it sound impatient. I was just honestly wondering if it has been done, not pushing for more. 

Are the outlines for years 1 to 12 on this site somewhere? I'm assuming so since I saw a post talking about it. 

Thanks.

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Posted: 29 Jul 2004 06:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Sadly, the full outline is not on any site  , but if you have questions I might be able to answer them.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2004 12:54 am    
By John Simons

Are you guys sure that Marvel Boy is a canon series? I don't actually own the issues but I checked the tpb out of the library to read it. I seem to have been left with the impression that it takes place on an alternate Earth, although I have nothing but a vague impression to back up this idea.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2004 02:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Marvel Boy certainly appears to be canon. The villain turned up in an issue of IRON MAN.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Jul 2004 03:29 pm    
By Antonio Gavino

You Have CA3 39-41 on these dates 

Quote: 
>>>
Wednesday, December 5 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v3 #39  FB 
One day. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v3 #39 
The same day as CA3 39-FB. It is "a few days" after CA3 38. Bare trees, and snow. Full moon. 
Tuesday, December 18 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v3 #40 
One day, long enough after CA3 39 for the Madden case to go to a hearing. 
Friday, March 1 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v3 #41 (1-20) 
One night, shortly after CA3 40. It is "weeks" after CA3 37. This story must occur after Av3 43 and probably after X 111. Full moon.  
<<<

but it looks to me that more time happens from issue 39 to 40 than from issue 40 to 41. Even though you note CA3 41(1-20) to be 'shortly after' CA3 40 you place it after almost three months. Any reason why? I'd say CA3 40 should be placed closer to the March 1 date of CA3 41 (1-20).

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Posted: 30 Jul 2004 07:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I'd say CA3 40 should be placed closer to the March 1 date of CA3 41 (1-20). 
<<<

Good call. Let's move CA3 40 to February 20. Sounds like a good date to me, with no other Cap appearances happening. Thanks for pointing that out, Antonio. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Jul 2004 05:49 pm    
By Antonio Gavino

The reason I didn't include TW 4 on the Spidey calendar is because the Kingpin doesn't seem to be blind in that story, yet you have it nailed happening on December 19-20; wasn't he supposed to be blind at that time?.

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Posted: 31 Jul 2004 07:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Yup, you're right. Fisk is definitely sighted in TW 4, so this story must occur out of sequence with other TW issues, sometime before DD2 15. I've removed it from my copy of the calendar and placed it about 13 months earlier, on my draft calendar for the period from Infinity War on. Thanks again, Antonio.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2004 11:57 pm    
By Antonio Gavino

Quote: 
>>>
Sunday, July 1 
PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN v2 #20  FB 
<<<

Spider-Man thwarts a bank robbery in this flashback so we should move it to a weekday or at least a saturday morning when banks are open.

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Posted: 02 Aug 2004 06:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Let's move the parts of this issue ahead one day to July 2 and 3. Thanks, Antonio.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Aug 2004 09:13 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, in my new quest to chronologize every Bendis book set in the mainstream Marvel universe, (since so many of the titles are interwoven), I finally bought all of the Alias TPB's, and will be reading them over the next few weeks. I've actually read the first 9 issues from the first TPB, and so I have some comments...(some of which concern Daredevil as well)... 

Tuesday, May 14th: 

Quote: 
>>>
The same day as DD2 33 (1-5). It is "a year" before DD2 61 (12-21).  
<<<

Where did you get that it's one year before DD2 #61? I don't recall a reference like that being in #61. DD2 #61 must obviously occur after the one year anniversary DD2 #50. And I find no listing on May 14th of the next year of the Calender. 

Tuesday, June 4th: 

Quote: 
>>>
The day after ALIAS 1 (1-12). Jessica goes back to her office and meets with a client, who claims that her husband is cheating on her.  
<<<

Actually, the woman who visits Jessica in this scene claims that her sister is missing. This is where Jessica gets set up to accidently record Cap. America's secret identity. 

Wednesday, June 5th: 

Alias #3: You have this issue occuring on this date. This is the first time Jessica and Matt murdock meet. But this cannot happen on this date. Matt's identity is published in the newspaper on Tuesday, May 14th. He immediately leaves for Japan that night. We don't see Matt again until he returns from his trip to Japan on Sunday, June 9th. He holds his press conference the next day, and tells the public he's NOT Daredevil. I don't see him returning to New York, and coming to bail out Jessica out of jail, just as a favor for Luke Cage, (when he's basically trying to lay low). 


In fact, Murdock's appearance in this arc, going by the way he's characterized, seems to suggest that this whole arc happens before Murdock's identity appears in the newspaper in DD2 #32 and 33. Jessica's never heard of him when after DD2 #32, his name is the talk of New York City! 

Monday, June 24th: 

Quote: 
>>>
ALIAS #10 (1-11) 
Jessica mentions that she is working for Matt, so this must occur after DD 35.  
<<<

This is true, so I'm advocating that Alias #4 occurs before DD#32, while Alias #10 occurs at some point fter DD#35. 

Thursday, June 6th: 

Alias #4: You have this issue as happening on a Thursday. In the dialogue where Matt Murdock calls up Jessica and lets her know she won't be charged for any crime, he tells her, "Well, it's Good News Tuesday for you!" I don't interpret that as just a figure of speech; I would say it really is Tuesday. 


Doesn't Daredevil appear in The Order #6? (which we have on May 29th). Well, this is also during the time when Matt is laying low in Japan...however, I can swallow this appearance by Matt/DD a little better, as this is one of those "Save the universe" events that they have to call in every hero...and I don't believe he had to fear being captured on camera in this battle. 

You know, since the last time we talked about placement of the "Matt Murdock is outed as DD" storyline, I notice you've done some shuffling around of the Kang War. Is there any chance we can move Matt's being outed and his departure to Japan back to April 18th, (the date on the newspaper from the issue of Daredevil?) If you could just move the Kang War down a bit, then Matt could be outed, he would flee for Japan, and right after that Kang would nuke Washington and conquer America...and thus, we don't see Matt during the Kang War Proper because he's laying low in Japan. Hey, I can hope, can't I? I simply like to use all newspaper dates whenever possible. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 11:37 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Where did you get that it's one year before DD2 #61? I don't recall a reference like that being in #61. DD2 #61 must obviously occur after the one year anniversary DD2 #50. And I find no listing on May 14th of the next year of the Calender.  
<<<

This one I can answer quickly. There IS a "year" reference in DD2 61, but it's not to DD2 33, it's to DD2 36 (my mistake). On page 14, panel 2, a reporter asks Murdock, "are you Daredevil or not?" Murdock replies, "Are you seriously asking me that? I answered it a year ago." DD publicly denied being Daredevil in DD2 36 (1-4), which I have on June 10 of Year 21. And the reference to "a year" doesn't mean "a year to the day" -- it just means sometime during the year before DD2 61 (12-21), which, BTW, I've placed in the fall of Year 22, after the June 30 cut-off date of the posted calendar. And don't forget that rough "year and a half" reference in DD2 58 since DD2 35 (19-20). I discounted the "year to the day" reference in DD2 56 to DD2 50 a while ago; it just doesn't work. Nine months -- yes, but exactly a year -- unfortunately no. 

And note the Daily Bugle on page 22 of DD2 61: "Trouble at Avengers Mansion?" Probably a tie-in to Avengers: Disassembled, which occurs just prior to the Halloween of FF 517. (Side note: how many times have we seen references to "Avengers Mansion," not "Avengers Embassy," recently?) 

I'll address your other points as I have time, Kevin. Thanks for the feedback.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 12:45 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I highly doubt the "Trouble at Avengers Mansion?" headline is a reference to Avengers Disassembled ... the opening salvo in "Disassembled" was the mansion's destruction via multiple explosions -- which you'd think would rate a different headline. Possibly one without a question mark at the end. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 01:50 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I highly doubt the "Trouble at Avengers Mansion?" headline is a reference to Avengers Disassembled ... the opening salvo in "Disassembled" was the mansion's destruction via multiple explosions -- which you'd think would rate a different headline. Possibly one without a question mark at the end. 
<<<

I tend to agree with Jeph. While the newspaper headline was probably an inside way for Bendis to say, "Go pick up Avengers #500!" it just doesn't sound like the headline that would match the events unfolding in Avengers #500. It could be a reference to the events of Iron Man #85, where in that giant robot was running loose on the Avengers property. Or it could be a reference to AFTER the events of Iron Man #85, when I bet the media was wondering if there was a fallout between Tony Stark and the rest of the Avengers... 

Heck, it just seems like there are several incidents just prior to Avengers #500 which could work for a "Trouble at the Avengers Mansion?" headline. Take MK Spiderman #2, where Spidey goes to the Avengers mansion, and gets in a scuffle with Avengers security, (Tony Stark is there, and the US Military sets out to defend the Sect. of Defense)...as the issue ended with Spiderman leaving peacefully, the media was probably wondering, "What just happened out at Avengers Mansion? I think they had some sort of security breach...?" Thus, the questioning headline... 


Quote: 
>>>
This one I can answer quickly. There IS a "year" reference in DD2 61, but it's not to DD2 33, it's to DD2 36 (my mistake). On page 14, panel 2, a reporter asks Murdock, "are you Daredevil or not?" Murdock replies, "Are you seriously asking me that? I answered it a year ago." DD publicly denied being Daredevil in DD2 36 (1-4), which I have on June 10 of Year 21. And the reference to "a year" doesn't mean "a year to the day" -- it just means sometime during the year before DD2 61 (12-21), which, BTW, I've placed in the fall of Year 22, after the June 30 cut-off date of the posted calendar.  
<<<

Ah, good points indeed. Well, it was just the way you phrased it in the entry...maybe if we had a footnote that said, "Doesn't mean 'year to the day'..."  


Quote: 
>>>
And don't forget that rough "year and a half" reference in DD2 58 since DD2 35 (19-20). I discounted the "year to the day" reference in DD2 56 to DD2 50 a while ago; it just doesn't work. Nine months -- yes, but exactly a year -- unfortunately no. 
<<<

Well, if DD2 58 IS a year and a half, (roughly) after June 9th, then that places it in December, (or thereabouts) of Year 22. Right? And we have DD2 50 on Nov. 2nd. It's a broad remark that Urich makes, (about the "year and a half") but wouldn't that be close to where the whole DD2 #56-60 arc needs to be for it to be "One Year later" after the events of DD2 #50?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 02:10 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I'll also note that on page 14 of Issue 6 of Alias, Jessica writes down on a notepad that the date is "Sept. 6th." She's taking notes for her latest case, where she's trying to prove that her client's husband is gay and cheating on her. She notes that on Sept. 6th, (which is that day) it's the 4th time she's made contact with Dr. Curtis Moss in a gay chat room. 

I don't know if we can make that Sept. 6th headline work or not, but I figure it's worth pointing out... 

You're probably going to hate me Paul by the time I'm done going through all of these Alias issues. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 08:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Well, if DD2 58 IS a year and a half, (roughly) after June 9th, then that places it in December, (or thereabouts) of Year 22. Right? And we have DD2 50 on Nov. 2nd. It's a broad remark that Urich makes, (about the "year and a half") but wouldn't that be close to where the whole DD2 #56-60 arc needs to be for it to be "One Year later" after the events of DD2 #50? 
<<<

I chalked up the "year and a half" reference to a rough approximation of over a year. Don't forget we also have DD2 58 occurring "four months" after the "May 4" wedding of Matt and Milla. 

Then we have the Avengers (likely pre-Disassembled) in DD2 61, meaning that at least that portion of DD2 61 (pages 3-5) should occur before the late October setting of Disassembled (again, keeping in mind the Halloween references in FF 517). 

Any way you slice it, not all the temporal references in DD2 will add up. I'm trying to make the best sense of most of the clues we have, and it looks like that "almost a year to the day" reference in DD2 56 will need to be a casualty. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Well, it was just the way you phrased it in the entry...maybe if we had a footnote that said, "Doesn't mean 'year to the day'..."  
<<<

There are many references to things occurring "a year" ago, and I take that at face value, without an implication that it's exactly a year to the day but merely sometime during the calendar year before. On the few occasions when something occurs precisely a year after something else, I prefer to note "a year to the day" or "exactly a year." And those quotations I'm using denote the text that appears in dialog or narration. 


Jeph York wrote: 
>>>
I highly doubt the "Trouble at Avengers Mansion?" headline is a reference to Avengers Disassembled ... the opening salvo in "Disassembled" was the mansion's destruction via multiple explosions -- which you'd think would rate a different headline. Possibly one without a question mark at the end.  
<<<

Good point, Jeph, with good reinforcement by Kevin. Right now, I'm inclined to think that the headline stems from the events of S-M2 2, but I'll wait for all the events of Disassembled to unfold before making a final determination. I'm still confused about how some of these stories (e.g. Captain America & the Falcon) are dovetailing into the whole thing. Hopefully the writers will make the continuity work out in the end. 


You can see I'm still avoiding Alias. But keep the comments coming. Apparently I don't have all the info I need from this series. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 08:22 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Alias #3: You have this issue occuring on this date. This is the first time Jessica and Matt murdock meet. But this cannot happen on this date. Matt's identity is published in the newspaper on Tuesday, May 14th. He immediately leaves for Japan that night. We don't see Matt again until he returns from his trip to Japan on Sunday, June 9th. He holds his press conference the next day, and tells the public he's NOT Daredevil. I don't see him returning to New York, and coming to bail out Jessica out of jail, just as a favor for Luke Cage, (when he's basically trying to lay low). 
In fact, Murdock's appearance in this arc, going by the way he's characterized, seems to suggest that this whole arc happens before Murdock's identity appears in the newspaper in DD2 #32 and 33. Jessica's never heard of him when after DD2 #32, his name is the talk of New York City!  
<<<

Very good point. ALIAS 3 must occur before DD2 32. I have moved ALIAS 1-5 to May 4-9. This accommodates the "Tuesday" reference in ALIAS 4, too. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'll also note that on page 14 of Issue 6 of Alias, Jessica writes down on a notepad that the date is "Sept. 6th."  
<<<

No way that date reference is going to work.  However, I moved ALIAS 6 to June 6 so at least the day of the month is accurate. So now ALIAS 6-9 occurs on June 6-8. 


Quote: 
>>>
Doesn't Daredevil appear in The Order #6? (which we have on May 29th). Well, this is also during the time when Matt is laying low in Japan...however, I can swallow this appearance by Matt/DD a little better, as this is one of those "Save the universe" events that they have to call in every hero...and I don't believe he had to fear being captured on camera in this battle.  
<<<

That's the way I've interpreted this and will add a note to that effect in the listing for ORDER 5. 


Quote: 
>>>
You know, since the last time we talked about placement of the "Matt Murdock is outed as DD" storyline, I notice you've done some shuffling around of the Kang War. Is there any chance we can move Matt's being outed and his departure to Japan back to April 18th, (the date on the newspaper from the issue of Daredevil?) If you could just move the Kang War down a bit, then Matt could be outed, he would flee for Japan, and right after that Kang would nuke Washington and conquer America...and thus, we don't see Matt during the Kang War Proper because he's laying low in Japan. Hey, I can hope, can't I? I simply like to use all newspaper dates whenever possible.  
<<<

You may not remember, but I tried to do this shortly after you posted your issue analysis a year and a half or so ago. It didn't go well. Way too many continuity glitches occur as a result. I seem to recall Thunderbolts chronology being a large part of the problem. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 02:38 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I chalked up the "year and a half" reference to a rough approximation of over a year. Don't forget we also have DD2 58 occurring "four months" after the "May 4" wedding of Matt and Milla. 

Then we have the Avengers (likely pre-Disassembled) in DD2 61, meaning that at least that portion of DD2 61 (pages 3-5) should occur before the late October setting of Disassembled (again, keeping in mind the Halloween references in FF 517). 
<<<

More good points. This is why I need you to keep track of the big picture!  Okay, I'll let this rest...for now.  


Quote: 
>>>
You may not remember, but I tried to do this shortly after you posted your issue analysis a year and a half or so ago. It didn't go well. Way too many continuity glitches occur as a result. I seem to recall Thunderbolts chronology being a large part of the problem.  
<<<

Oh, I definently remember you having problems shuffling events around surrounding the Kang War.  It's just that I thought certain dates had been altered since that period a year and a half ago. New dates = new possibilities to rearrange Daredevil entries! Or so I thought...it still looks good. 

One other thing I just noticed which I'll point out: 

Monday, Oct. 14th: 

Quote: 
>>>
Spideys being out of town might be explained by the holiday in which Ive placed this story (Labor Day), which would mean a day off from school and an opportunity to get away. 
<<<

Your text should reflect that you've moved this to Columbus day, not Labor day.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 03:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Ah, good catch. I was wondering how long it would be before someone discovered an editorial change I failed to make. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Oct 2004 08:51 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I'm bumping this thread up so that I don't have to go down so many back pages to find this thread...I plan on making some more posts in it soon. Are you ready for my Alias placement questions/suggestions, Paul? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 09:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

That depends. Do your suggestions solve the Bendis War conundrums?  

Seriously, feel free to post. I'm still dealing with this week's comics, recent issue analyses, and a couple of X-Men-related placement issues(including that whole UX 401-407, X 117-126, XX 5-9 deal; I haven't forgotten). 

I hope to have some time this weekend to make a serious dent in the backlog.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Oct 2004 03:09 pm    
By Dhall

Paul, Am I missing it, or do you not have Wolverine 2 #187 in the calendar? 

Dave H.

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Posted: 17 Oct 2004 04:36 pm    
By Dhall

Paul, Am I missing it, or do you not have Wolverine 2 #187 in the calendar? 

Dave H.

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Posted: 17 Oct 2004 04:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

You're not missing it; I am. Was an analysis of this issue posted? If so, I blanked it out. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Oct 2004 09:19 pm    
By Dhall

Ah, that would explain why it isn't there.....

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Posted: 18 Oct 2004 08:38 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
That depends. Do your suggestions solve the Bendis War conundrums?  
<<<
 
I seriously doubt it, but every little bit helps, right?  

Anyway, I'll start with this: I know I've already brought up Alias 1 thru 5, which you moved from June 3-8, to May 4-9. But I noticed a fluke, (and you already may have spotted this): You have Alias #1 also happening on Tuesday, March 19th as well. Apparently this was your first placement, then you moved it and issues 2-5 to later dates. Or so I figure. 

That's it for now...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 18 Oct 2004 08:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
You have Alias #1 also happening on Tuesday, March 19th as well.  
<<<

Really? That's odd. It's not there on my master document... 

Anyway, please ignore that March 19 listing, and thanks for calling that to my attention.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 06:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Seriously, guys, did I miss an analysis of W2 187? I thought I remember Jeph posting something a while back, but I can't find it. If it's not here, then can someone do the honors of an analysis? Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:31 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I did #183 and #189, but that was it for v2. I can handle #187 fairly soon, if you'd like. Although I'm fairly sure David Hall will beat me to it. :p 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 09:51 pm    
By Dhall

hmm. as the calendar goes: 
Punisher 33-37 
UX 421-422 
Wolverine 188-189 

I have a feeling that I'll get to it soon..... 

Dave H.

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Posted: 20 Oct 2004 06:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Dave. This is near the top of my "to do" list, along with such other X-Men issues as the flashbacks in W2 175/2, the relative order of recent ASTONX3 and X issues, and that UX 401-407/X 117-123 thing.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Oct 2004 10:06 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, Paul here's the comments I've been wanting to make on Alias. I finally read over every single issue of Alias, and your calender placement is actually pretty good. I had been hoping that I'd come in and connect unseen dots and make all this work, and magically solve the dilemma of Jessica's pregnancy. But I can now say for certain that this won't be solved until she actually HAS THE BABY! Which may be 2013 at this rate... 

But anyway, I will point out these things I've noticed: 

You have Alias #10 split up as follows: 

Quote: 
>>>
Monday, June 24 
ALIAS #10 (1-11) 
One day, "two months" before ALIAS 10 (12-21). Jessica meets with J.J. Jameson who hires her to unmask Spider-Man. He got the idea from the Daredevil outing, but considers their handling of the situation botched. Jessica mentions that she is working for Matt, so this must occur after DD 35. 

Monday, August 19 
ALIAS #10 (12-21) 
One day, "two months" after ALIAS 10 (1-11). JJJ receives bills for the last three weeks of Jessicas work. He goes ballistic and fires her. Ben Urich and Robbie Robertson cameo.  
<<<

During these two months, Jessica is supposedly working for JJJ, trying to find Spiderman's real identity. Except you have Alias #11-15 occuring in the two month gap. I suspect you did this on purpose? Placement of these issues is dictated by Alias #10, Jessica says she works for Matt, which would place the issue after DD2 35, when Matt starts his press conference. And Jessica appears in the same scene in both Alias 15 and DD2 36. And DD2 37 occurs "3 weeks" after Matt's press conference. So why would Jessica take on bodyguarding Matt and trying to find Rebecca Cross, (in Alias 11-15) if she's working fulltime for Jameson? 

Yes, the text in Alias 10 would indicate that Jessica has been working hard the last two months for the Daily Bugle. She's spent the last 3 weeks at a homeless shelter. Ben Urich notes that before that, she was spending time at orphanages, and at St. Catherine's Hospital. Meanwhile, the pages of Daredevil would have us believe that Jessica has spent her time bodyguarding Matt Murdock. So which is it? 

Well, this all hinges on Jessica's comments in Alias 10. She says "Matt Murdock is my lawyer and I do work for him." Maybe she was refering to some odd jobs he's had her do behind the scenes...Jameson also says in the scene where he hires Jessica, (about Matt Murdock): "I don't care who that liar sues or what TV show he goes crying to-I know in my gut it's a fact. Murdock is Daredevil." Maybe there was talk of Matt suing the the Daily Globe before he announced it. I'm just wondering if it's possible to move Alias 1-10 back, so that the "2 months" in Alias 10 can go uninterrupted. Because Jessica is referenced as working for Jonah. I'm saying move the scene with Jameson hiring Jessica to right after DD's identity is revealed in the paper, but before Matt holds his press conference... 

I like the above proposal for the following reason: 


Quote: 
>>>
Sunday, June 30 
ALIAS #14 
The day after ALIAS 13? I assume this is the Sunday that the Warwick preacher gives his anti-mutant sermon, but I dont have this issue. Help, anyone? 
<<<

Alias 14 happens the same night of Alias 13, so you need to move this placement back one day. Jessica goes to a nearby town and finds the missing Rebecca Cross. She's not a mutant, she's a spoiled little brat who ran away from home, because she hated the prejudices of her small redneck town. Jessica drags her back home, to find out that the sheriff has arrested Rebecca's aunt, who killed Rebecca's dad, (as seen in Alias 13). Jessica, having "solved the case" heads back to New York. 

As she's driving Rebecca back to her home, Jessica gets a phone call from Matt Murdock. It goes like this: 

Matt: "Jessica, this is Matt Murdock." 

Jessica: "Hey, Matt." 

Matt: "Where are you now? Are you in the city?" 

Jessica: "I will be tomorrow. Why? What's up?" 

Matt: "I need your services. Can you come by in the morning?" 

Jessica: "Late morning?" 

Matt: "How's ten?" 

Jessica: "Ugh-I guess." 

Matt: "Thanks." 

Jessica: "How you holding up? You know-with the stuff." 

Matt: "Well-uh-we'll talk about it tomorrow." 

Jessica: "You got it." 

And that's it. 

Now next issue is Issue 15, where Jessica is now bodyguarding Matt Murdock with Luke Cage. The implication is that this is the scene I just described is where Matt hires Jessica to be a bodyguard. Issue 15 also features a conversation between Jessica and Luke Cage, where they resolve their feelings over the fling they had back in Issue 1. If Jessica really had been bodyguarding Matt before now, (as Issue 10 might have us believe) wouldn't Jessica and Luke have already had this conversation before now? Yet, I believe this is the first day Jessica's on the job for Matt. 

Further evidence for not having Alias 11-15 happen in the period in the middle of Alias 10 is this: In Alias 18, when Jessica goes to bodyguard Matt, in Jessica's narrative, she says, "Thank God I got up in time to shower and get over to my actually paying job this month." Well, Jameson was paying her. So why would she say that if this occurs during the 2 month gap in Alias 10? 

I don't know exactly how to solve this conundrum perfectly, but I propose moving Alias 1-10 back, having the first part of issue 10 happen right after DD is outed by the newspapers...and having Alias 11-15 happen after Jameson fires Jessica in Alias 10, and right before DD2 36~Alias 15, (where we first see Jessica bodyguarding Matt for the first time). "28 days" pass in DD2 35, and "3 weeks" pass in DD2 36, so that's about equal to the "2 months" required in Alias 10. Of course, all this requires overlooking the comments actually made in Alias 10...however, if you interpretted the comments made by Hank Pym in Avengers vol3. #45 in a different way, I don't see why we can't interpret Jessica and Jameson's comments in a different way in Alias 10... 

Or does anyone else have a different solution to this mess? Or can someone interpret any of this in a different way? Or am I not making any sense?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 07:33 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

All I know is, isn't Jonah really mad at Jessica at the start of Alias #11 --BECAUSE of the way she burned him at the end of #10? 

Doesn't #11-15 HAVE to go after the end of #10, just to satisfy the plot requirements? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 05:14 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Further evidence for not having Alias 11-15 happen in the period in the middle of Alias 10 is this: In Alias 18, when Jessica goes to bodyguard Matt, in Jessica's narrative, she says, "Thank God I got up in time to shower and get over to my actually paying job this month." Well, Jameson was paying her. So why would she say that if this occurs during the 2 month gap in Alias 10? 
<<<

The above quote demonstrates that I was up way too late last night for my own good. Ignore the above statement completely. Alias 18 doesn't even fall in the 2 month gap that I'm disputing here. It's after Jameson fires Jessica in Alias 10, and definently after Alias 15. So of course it's Jessica's only paying job at the time...the only issues I'm bringing up contention for placement are Alias 10 thru 15, (which, if Issue 10 is pushed back, would push back Alias 1-9). I just don't like the idea of putting other Jessica appearances in the 2 month gap mentioned in Alias 10, (for reasons mentioned above). 

Lack of sleep...making things...confusing... 


Quote: 
>>>
All I know is, isn't Jonah really mad at Jessica at the start of Alias #11 --BECAUSE of the way she burned him at the end of #10? 

Doesn't #11-15 HAVE to go after the end of #10, just to satisfy the plot requirements? 
<<< 

Jonah doesn't appear in Alias #11...he appears in Alias 10, and next appears in Alias 16, where we see that YES, he's definently still mad at Jessica...The 3rd Alias TPB has Issues 10, 16-21, all together, to get all the Jonah appearances bunched together...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 22 Oct 2004 08:03 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Jonah doesn't appear in Alias #11...he appears in Alias 10, and next appears in Alias 16, where we see that YES, he's definently still mad at Jessica...The 3rd Alias TPB has Issues 10, 16-21, all together, to get all the Jonah appearances bunched together... 
<<<

Ah, THAT explains why I thought that. Sorry. 

Yay, Marvel's "out of order for themed presentation" TPB collections. :p 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 10:24 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Continuing with my analysis of Alias: 

Alias 11, page 8: Jessica is questioning Rebecca Cross's mother, about her disappearance. 

Jessica asks, "The last time you saw her?" 

Mom: "April 14th. What's today?" 

Mom's sister: "It's-it's May 12th." 

I doubt we get to use the May 12th date, but I figured I'd point it out. 

Moving on... 

you have the following: 

Quote: 
>>>
Sunday, October 13 
ALIAS #16 (13-22) 
The early morning after ALIAS 16 (2-12). Scott Lang comes over to talk. They go back to his place. Jessica calls Clay Quartermain at SHIELD to get information on Spider-Woman. The clock reads 4:44 AM. 
<<<

but it should be noted that pgs. 20-21, (there is no page 22 that I see for this issue) occurs at the same time as this scene: 

Quote: 
>>>
ALIAS #17-FB (4-7) 
Late the night of ALIAS 16 (13-22), Jessica meets with J. Jonah Jameson about Mattie Franklins disappearance.  
<<<

On Alias 16, pages 20-21, we see J. Jonah Jameson leaving the parking lot of the Bugle in a limo, and right before he leaves, he is confronted by Jessica, who tells JJJ that she wants to talk about Mattie Franklin. As JJJ is heading to his car, his sectretary is having this conversation with him: 

Sectretary: "Your tickets are for seven. Mrs. Jameson will meet you there." 

JJJ: "All I need is another night of this musical theatre crap! What's going on with the story on the White Tiger Trial?" 

Sectretary: "I-I don't know sir." 

JJJ: "Find out and call my house with an update. I want it on the front page tomorrow morning. Not Sunday, not Friday, tomorrow!" 

Going by these words, it's before Friday, and during the White Tiger trial. Now looking at the calender, you actually have White Tiger trial ending just a few days prior, on Wednesday, October 9th. I have the suspicion that if we did some rearranging, we can make these references work. 

Other references: 

Alias #17: When Jessica Jones tries to contact Jessica Drew, she gets a voice mail on the answering machine from Jessica Drew, saying "The office is closed for the month of April as I am in Istanbul on assignment." When Jessica and Jessica team up in Issue 19, (sounds like a knockoff of the old show Simon and Simon?) J. Drew comments that she just got back. So if we take the reference literally, then it's April, or early May, I suppose... 

I know we won't be able to use most of these references, but I feel the need to point them out.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 08:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Kevin, for all these Alias notes and suggestions. Addressing these is working its way up to the top of my "to do" list. 

One quick note... 

Quote: 
>>>
"Not Sunday, not Friday, tomorrow!" 
Going by these words, it's before Friday 
<<<

It would actually be before Thursday. Tomorrow can't be Friday.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 10:45 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hey, Kevin. Figuring that this would be an easy thing to deal with (ha!), I went ahead and tried to push ALIAS 16 back so that it was occurring during Hector Ayala's trial. As I began doing this, I realized that I was going to have to adjust several issues of DD2 and CA4 in the process -- mostly because of apparent inconsistencies in the passage of time between ALIAS and DD2, which intertwine. (Thanks again, Bendis.) 

Here are my new calendar placements. Note that I had to insert a day between ALIAS 16 (13-22) and ALIAS 17-FB (4-7), push DD2 41 closer to DD2 40, compress the first seventeen pages of DD2 42, and insert more time between CA4 3 and 4. I have edited notes to reflect changed dates and the information you provided. Does all this work? 

Monday, October 7 
DAREDEVIL v2 #39 (1-12) 
The Monday after DD2 38 (19-22). It is a few days before DD2 40. The trial of Hector Ayala begins, so this segment occurs before ALIAS 16 (13-22). 

Tuesday, October 8 
DAREDEVIL v2 #39 (13-22) 
The day after DD2 39 (1-12). Hector Ayalas trial continues. Among the people appearing at the trial are Reed Richards, Stephen Strange, Luke Cage, Danny Rand, Robert Diamond, and Jessica Jones. 
ALIAS #16 (1-12) 
One day. It is a couple of days before ALIAS 19. Jessica stops a minor robbery and meets Spider-Woman, who must appear here after END. 

Wednesday, October 9 
ALIAS #16 (13-22) 
The early morning after ALIAS 16 (2-12). This segment occurs before a Thursday during the White Tiger trial, so its during the few days between DD2 39 (1-12) and DD2 40. Scott Lang comes over to talk. They go back to his place. Jessica calls Clay Quartermain at SHIELD to get information on Spider-Woman. The clock reads 4:44 AM. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #40 
The day after DD2 39 (13-22), and thus a Wednesday. It is a few days after DD2 39 (1-12) and a few months after DD2 38 (1-6). The final day of Hectors trial, so its after ALIAS 13 (16-22). The trial ends with Hectors death in front of the courthouse, with Matt, Cage, and Danny Rand present. Green shrubs and blowing leaves. Rain that night. 

Thursday, October 10 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #1 (21-32) 
One day, presumably on Easter, seven months after CA4 1 (1-20), but this, unfortunately, must be a topical reference. Besides, why all the time between these issues and the Independence Day setting of CA4 4? Its extremely unlikely that Cap would wait any more than a few days (never mind three months) to confront Fury about the SHIELD technology found on terrorists. This story must occur after CA 01, in which Caps ID is still secret, and probably after DL 1, in which Caps identity is a matter of speculation. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #2 
The same day as CA4 1 (21-32). 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #3 
The same day as CA4 2. Cap unmasks on national television. This revelation has also been placed after the revelation of Daredevils identity in DD2 32-33, as determined by ALIAS chronology. It is four months before CA4 7. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #41 
One day. This story must occur after DD:T 1. Daredevil rescues a blind woman named Milla, who becomes infatuated with him. The Owl is setting up shop as the new kingpin of crime in New York now that Wilson Fisk is out of the picture. Jacket weather and green trees in Manhattan. Crescent moon. 
ALIAS #17-FB (4-7) 
Late one night, perhaps the night of the day after ALIAS 16 (13-22), Jessica meets with J. Jonah Jameson about Mattie Franklins disappearance. 

Friday, October 11 
ALIAS #17-FB (9-21) 
The early morning after ALIAS 17-FB (4-7). Jessica learns about Captain America being outed, which is all over the TV, so it must be the early morning after CA4 3. Later she encounters Madame Web. Jessica Drews answering machine suggests that its April, but this cant be right. 
ALIAS #17 
The same early morning as ALIAS 17-FB (9-21). Jessica stops having sex with Scott Lang to tell him about her day. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #42 (1-17) 
The morning after DD2 41. Milla has DD on her mind. Daredevil finds the Owl and intimidates him and his crony. Ingersoll talks to Rosenthal about the newspapers case against Matt Murdock. The judge is going to set a trial start date next week. We see green grass and trees at Rosenthals place, where he is taking a swim. 
ALIAS #18 (1-7) 
The same morning as ALIAS 17. Jessica goes home and reports to work for Matt Murdock. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #42 (18) ~ ALIAS 18 (8) 
The same morning as DD2 42 (17) and ALIAS 18 (1-7). Tara Woods tries to interview Matt Murdock and Jessica Jones. We see bare trees in Manhattan. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #42 (19-23) 
The same morning as DD2 42 (18). Matt and Jessica arrive at Matts office, where Milla waits. Rosenthal is murdered in his pool. 
ALIAS #18 (9-16) 
The same day as ALIAS 18 (8). Jessica interviews the last person to see Mattie Franklin. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #43 
The same day as DD2 42 (19-23). Mr. Rosenthals lawyer arrives back at Rosenthals mansion, to find the police swarming the place. Milla meets with Matt alone in his office and they hit it off. She asks him out on a date, and he asks for time to think it over. Foggy chews Matt out, saying another woman in his life is the last thing he needs right now. The discussion turns to the Owl, and how hes spreading the MGH drug on the street. Matt wants to take him out, but Foggy still urges secrecy. He asks Matt to let someone else handle it. Matt says Spider-Man is out of town, and Luke Cage wont return his phone calls. Matt goes to Lukes apartment later that day. Luke says hes been avoiding Matt since the White Tiger trial, not because Hector died, but because hes fed up with Matt lying to everyone about not being DD. After Luke refuses to help him, a stressed-out DD beats up drug dealers on the street. That evening, Matt shows up at Millas. Foggy is shown getting ready for an ACLU fund raiser being held downtown, when suddenly, the two cops from Rosenthals mansion appear at the doorstep to their law office, a search warrant in their hands. Spidey is out of town, which means he is not teaching school today. 
SPIDER-MANS TANGLED WEB #20 (1-3) 
One day. J. Jonah Jameson has a second heart attack. It is Take Your Child to Work Day. If this event occurs in the MU at the same time it does in the real world, it would be April. However, given that Kangs armies were overrunning the world at that point in the MU, it is reasonable to believe that the occasion was rescheduled this year. 
NOTE: Looks like I may have to move this given JJJ's chronology? 
DAREDEVIL v2 #44 
The same evening as DD2 43. Milla and Matt are our walking the streets having a good time, till they get close to Matts house and find the cops swarming it. Matt talks to the cops swarming his house. They believe hes a suspect in Rosenthals murder. The cops inform him that Rosenthal was murdered this morning between 9 and 12 noon. They take Matt and Milla down to the police station for questioning. Milla says she was with Matt this morning in his law office, so he couldnt have murdered anyone, but she doesnt let the cops know shes figured out Matts DD. Foggy stops by, but Matt says he can handle the cops on his own. As the interrogation heats up, one of the out of town cops gets angry and rips open Matts shirt, hoping to expose a costume beneath. Hes bare-chested though. The Chief of the Precinct has seen enough, and is scared of being sued by Matt, so she stops the interrogation and lets Matt and company go. The cops report that they found nothing in Matts house or office, though his home basement was clean. Matt and Foggy leave the Police Precinct, to find the Press swarming outside. That same night, Mr. Anad confronts the Owl, holding up a newspaper talking about Rosanthals murder, and showing Matt being escorted by police (it must be a late extra edition). Anad asks if the Owl was behind this. Owl playfully likes to think he was, and thinks DD is out of the picture. In the opening pages, as Matt and Milla walk the street, they were long sleeve coats and scarfs, suggesting its cold, but considering Rosenthal was swimming outside that morning, it must be that time of year where its warm during the day, and cold at night. 
ALIAS #18 (13-16) 
The same night as ALIAS 18 (1-12). Jessica and tries to get into the club where she was hanging out. 

Saturday, October 12 
ALIAS #18 (17-22) 
The early morning after ALIAS 18 (9-16). Jessica gets into the club to find Mattie being used for creating drugs. 
ALIAS #19 
The same day as ALIAS 18 (17-22). It is a couple of days after ALIAS 16 (1-12). Jessica gets thrown out of the club, checks herself into a hospital briefly, and goes home, only to meet Jessica Drew. Mattie is sixteen. 
SPIDER-MANS TANGLED WEB #20  FB (5p3-5p7) 
Perhaps the day after TW 20 (1-3). Jamesons doctor suggests he see a psychiatrist for his anger issues. It is two weeks before TW 20 (4-22). NOTE: move this? 
DAREDEVIL v2 #45 (1-8) 
The day after DD2 44. The Kingpin (still heavily scarred from all the stab wounds, but not wearing his dark glasses) visits Sammy Silke in prison to kill him. Matt and Foggy are hiding from the press at the New Yorker Hotel. Matt calls Milla up and leaves an apology on her answering machine. Foggy then apologizes to Matt, saying everyones been giving Matt hell lately, and says Matt can now do whatever he wants to, Foggy wont coach him anymore, hell just offer support. Matt suddenly realizes that with their having to lay low, the Owl will try to make his move that night. Green grass in Pennsylvania, where we see some people wearing jackets but others dont. 

Sunday, October 13 
DAREDEVIL v2 #45 (9-21) 
Early the morning after DD2 45 (1-8). The Owl is meeting with Anad and an illegal doctor who is manufacturing the MGH. The FBI burst in, and confront all of them. FBI Agent Driver casually lets slide to Mr. Anad that Sammy Silke was murdered in prison this morning. The Owl starts to escape, the stash of MGH in his hands, when suddenly DD appears out in the street as the Owl flees the building. They fight and DD defeats him. DD hands the drugs to Agent Driver and leaves. Full moon. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #46 (1-10) 
The same day as DD2 45 (9-21). On the set of a soap opera film stage, actress Typhoid Mary is visited by the Kingpin (wearing his dark glasses), who she doesnt recognize in her persona of Mary. He slaps her and breaks the hypnotism responsible for the multiple-personality Mary leading a normal life, resulting in the return of Typhoid. Meanwhile, Milla hears on the radio about how DD broke up the Owls crime ring last night. Shes amazed that Matt can go on a date, answer questions by the police, and turn around and go fight crime. Flowers arrive with an apology from Matt, and she decides to see him again. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #4 
One night. We see fireworks in Washington DC, but given the crossover with the chronology of DD2 and ALIAS, it may be a Columbus Day celebration; the references to July 4 are in the narration only, not in story dialog or visuals. Its likely within days after CA4 1-3, given the urgency of the terrorists SHIELD technology. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #5 (1-15) 
Same night as CA4 4. Cap defeats some terrorists and has a discussion with Nick Fury. We see more fireworks and narrative reference to July 4. 

Monday, October 14: Columbus Day 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #5 (16-22) 
The day after CA4 5 (1-15). The reference to July the fifth must be topical. Theres another reference here to the events of terrorist attacks of September the Eleventh, 2001. Steve Rogers flies to Dresden and walks into a building rigged with explosives. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #6 
The same day as CA4 5 (16-22). This story must occur before SECWAR 2-FB (1-8). 
DAREDEVIL v2 #46 (11-15) 
The night of the day after DD2 46 (1-10). The Kingpin shows up in Bolivia, where he finds Mr. Dini, who was last seen helping Vanessa Fisk sell off Kingpins empire. Kingpin relates how he woke up alone in a hospital in the mountains of Jabal Katrina, found out his wife had left him there, and returned to America to find his wife gone, his son murdered, his empire divided up and sold off, and his trump card, DDs identity, blown. He then shoots and kills Dini.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 09:42 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
DAREDEVIL v2 #40 
The day after DD2 39 (13-22), and thus a Wednesday. It is a few days after DD2 39 (1-12) and a few months after DD2 38 (1-6). The final day of Hectors trial, so its after ALIAS 13 (16-22). 
<<< 


There's probably something I'm missing that's obvious here, but why does Hector's trial have to occur after Alias 13 (16-22)? I'm not neccesarily disputing placement, but I don't believe Hector's trail is referenced in Alias 13...Matt Murdock being outed as DD is, though. 

Quote: 
>>>
Thursday, October 10 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #1 (21-32) 
One day, presumably on Easter, seven months after CA4 1 (1-20), but this, unfortunately, must be a topical reference. Besides, why all the time between these issues and the Independence Day setting of CA4 4? Its extremely unlikely that Cap would wait any more than a few days (never mind three months) to confront Fury about the SHIELD technology found on terrorists. This story must occur after CA 01, in which Caps ID is still secret, and probably after DL 1, in which Caps identity is a matter of speculation. 
<<< 

One minor problem: Yeah, we're pretty much in agreement it's not Easter, but when those terrorists took hostages in this issue, the hostages were in church. It's supposed to be Sunday, going by the issue... 

Quote: 
>>>
Friday, October 11 
ALIAS #17-FB (9-21) 
The early morning after ALIAS 17-FB (4-7). Jessica learns about Captain America being outed, which is all over the TV, so it must be the early morning after CA4 3. 
<<< 


You know, you don't neccesarily HAVE to have Jessica finding out the morning after CA4 3...it's not like she's found time to sit around and watch the news, (and she frankly doesn't appear to keep in touch with world events around her; she only learns it because the kid Malcolm tells her, and from the way they talk, it's been a few days since they've seen each other). Captain America's revealing his identity could've happened the prior Sunday, and Jessica's just finding out about it now, later in the week.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 10:35 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Aha! Here's an interesting observation that just occured to me: 

Quote: 
>>>
Monday, May 26: Memorial Day 
ALIAS #24 (1-16) 
One day. Ant-Man is seen in the new costume shown in A3 65, so this segment must occur after the old costumes last appearance in A3 63; the new costume must make its first chronological appearance here. Matt Murdock tries to get Jessica to help Ka-Zar find Zabu, but she refuses. Jessica then confronts Warbird about referring a potential client to her since that client wants to find information about the Purple Man. Cap appears too. Green grass and trees in New York. 
<<<

Yes, indeed, Matt Murdock makes an appearance here. But you know what? This issue is placed during that supposed "1 year gap" in the pages of Daredevil, during which time Matt is supposedly wearing a goatee! And here in this issue of Alias, he doesn't have a goatee! 

This issue is the start of the Purple Man story arc in Alias, which ends with the revelation that Jessica is 3 months pregnant. 

The non-goatee can only mean a couple of things: Either this story arc is right before DD2 50, or it is after Matt resumes being Daredevil, around DD2 60. As you've mentioned on the calender, Paul, placement of this arc is also dictated by the appearance of Jean Grey in Alias 28, (so it's before she dies) and by the appearance of the Avengers, (with Jack of Hearts still alive on the team). 

And yes, the conception had to occur after Scott Lang and Jessica started dating, in Alias 15, (because Scott momentarily thinks the baby might be his).... 

Also, I seem to recall Paul that you were once worried that the conception date was Alias 1, when Luke and Jessica had sex. You were wondering if there was evidence they had sex again. Well, not in the pages of Alias, but I think it's safe to say that Jessica was carrying on with Luke in private behind Scott's back at certain intervals...notice in the pages of DD2 48, when Luke Cage helps Matt and Jessica deal with Typhoid Mary, he says he didn't come to check on Matt, he came by to ask Jessica out to lunch. So yeah, I would dare to say they had had sex again after Alias #1. 

Doesn't say much about Jessica's morals though, to do that behind Scott's back... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 06:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Yes, indeed, Matt Murdock makes an appearance here. But you know what? This issue is placed during that supposed "1 year gap" in the pages of Daredevil, during which time Matt is supposedly wearing a goatee! And here in this issue of Alias, he doesn't have a goatee!  
<<<

B-E-N-D-I-S!!!! Wouldja believe...Matt shaved off the goatee then decided to regrow it during that "one year" period? 


Quote: 
>>>
Doesn't say much about Jessica's morals though, to do that behind Scott's back...  
<<<

Well, Jessica is no Gwen Stacy. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 07:55 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
B-E-N-D-I-S!!!! 
<<<

Can't you just feel the love?  


Quote: 
>>>
Wouldja believe...Matt shaved off the goatee then decided to regrow it during that "one year" period? 
<<<

If all else fails, yes! But this could help out in determining placement, if we ever get around to seeing Jessica's baby born...(around the year 2013). 

Quote: 
>>>
Well, Jessica is no Gwen Stacy.  
<<<

 But will Jessica's kid be as @#$%ed up as Gwen's?!? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 09:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I've been thinking...that goatee theory is plausible, especially when you consider that Matt grew it in December, then we see him next with it in August. Heck, he could have shaved it for his wedding on May 4 and hadn't grown it back yet by May 26.
_________________
Paul B.
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Posted: 30 Oct 2004 03:25 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I've been thinking...that goatee theory is plausible, especially when you consider that Matt grew it in December, then we see him next with it in August. Heck, he could have shaved it for his wedding on May 4 and hadn't grown it back yet by May 26. 
<<<

Yeah, but...what if Milla really LIKES the goatee? I mean, the instant he looses it and resumes being Daredevil, she ditches him and asks for an annulment!  

I'm just saying there's no evidence he shaved it off for the wedding... 

Maybe we'll get another flashback during the "one year gap" where we see him without a goatee...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Oct 2004 04:28 pm   
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I'm just saying there's no evidence he shaved it off for the wedding...  
<<<

True enough, but I really don't think we need it to settle on placement.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 04:59 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
There's probably something I'm missing that's obvious here, but why does Hector's trial have to occur after Alias 13 (16-22)?  
<<<


The obvious thing you're missing is my dyslexic moment. That should read "Alias 16 (13-22)." 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 36

Posted: 31 Oct 2004 11:32 am    Post subject: CFA: Captain America
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'll be adding Captain America in next weekend's update, and I'm looking for an analysis of CA4 22, if someone would be so kind. 


watching: wolf blitzer

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Posted: 31 Oct 2004 10:10 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Begins in December 2003 at Grant Austen Galleries in NYC. Soon after, Cap heads down to Guantanamo Bay and meets a lot of military folks. 
Appearances by: Capt. America, Rebecca Quan (Cap's girlfriend), Paige Rand, Ferdnand Heydayat, Gen. Licoln Baron (alternately spelled "Barron"), Col. John D. Boyle, Tony MacPherson, Gen. Marty Oliver, Senator Lestor Paley. For what it's worth, Cap mentions having met Gen. Oliver "at the 9-11 memorial at the Pentagon last year." Don't know offhand if that qualifies as a BTS for an earlier story offhand.

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Posted: 31 Oct 2004 10:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I don't believe this event was ever published, but if it did indeed occur "last year" (Marvel Time) relative to CA4 22, then it would have been within a few months after 9-11, by my reckoning.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 11:22 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Well, the author specifically cited this story as occurring in December 2003, so I think the better interpretation would be "at the 9-11 memorial at the Pentagon a year after the tragedy took place." Don't know offhand how that lines up with the calendar, though.

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 07:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

But Marvel Time is compressed, so the calendar places 9-11 in September of Year 20 and CA4 22 in December of Year 21, fourteen months apart. Thus, I reckon that for the memorial to have occurred "last year" from the perspective of a denizen of the MU, it would have been between September 12 and December 31, Year 20. I'd rather go with the actual in-story reference to "last year" rather than the narrative reference of "2003," which must be topical.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 37

Posted: 03 Nov 2004 10:40 pm    Post subject: What If #33
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Another slog through What If with Jeph ... this time, for a change, an issue from volume one. I'm selling off this comic soon, and thought I should write it up for the MCP before I let it go. 

What If #33 

- What if Dazzler had become the herald of Galactus? 
- What if Iron Man was trapped in the time of King Arthur? 

This is a first for me: writing up an issue where I dont have much of the source material available to check. I'm going to need a small amount of help on the Dazzler story, and a LOT of help with the Iron Man story. 

Story #1: 

The Watcher appears in this story (presumably after the final story in WI #32, and next in the second story in this issue). 

This timeline diverges at DAZZ #11 p.16 panel 5. 

Earth-616 temporal references: the Watcher calls the events of DAZZ #9-11 a "recent event". Given that WI #33 was published only five months after DAZZ #11, I'd say that's an accurate reference. 

Pre-existing scenes: 

Most of the recapped scenes are largely re-posed to one extent or another  but not enough, in my opinion, to claim them as new scenes or new portions of existing scenes. 

p.2 panel 2  a generic shot of Dazzler singing on stage. Could be anything, really, but the panel it most resembles is DAZZ #2 p.5 panel 2. 

p.2 panel 3 ~ DAZZ #1 p.3 panel 1 (re-posed, close-up on the criminal in the center) 
p.2 panel 4 ~ DAZZ #9 p.18 panel 7 (re-posed) 
p.2 panel 5 ~ DAZZ #9 p.20 panel 3 (re-posed) 
p.3 panel 1 ~ DAZZ #10 p.6 panel 3 (re-posed) 

p.3 panel 2  Terrax slices a small asteroid in half with his axe while Galactus looks on. Is this from anything specific? 

p.3 panel 3 ~ DAZZ #10 p.17 panel 6 
p.3 panel 4 ~ DAZZ #10 p.21 panel 5 

p.3 panel 5  simplified flashback, comprising DAZZ #11 p.16 panel 2 (re-posed visual) and panel 5 (dialogue). 

p.3 panel 6 ~ DAZZ #11 p.20 panel 4 (re-posed) 

p.13 panel 3  Galactus watches a playback of his own origin  a long shot showing the ship containing the last survivors of Taa plunging into their sun. (This origin has been retconned since, hasn't it? Making him instead the last survivor of the previous universe? Does the "ship plunging into a sun" bit still stand?) Presumably the scene shown on the monitor has been seen before, though  likely in the FBs in Thor #162, 168 and 169. Can anyone confirm or deny this? 

Notes: 

This is another issue where the Watcher displays the ability to see into the future of these alternate worlds  therefore it has to occur after he receives his time-portal from the Timekeepers, an event we may (or may not) be witnessing in a flashback in Q #30. This is probably more useful in placing that FB than it is in placing WI #33, though 

Also, if anyone can provide issue, page and panel references for the Terrax and Galactus FBs I described above, I'd appreciate it. 

---- 

Story #2: 

The Watcher appears in this story (presumably after the first story in this issue, and before the first story in WI #34  although that issue was a humor issue, and may not be canon). 

Earth-616 temporal references: the Watcher calls the present-day events of IM #149-150 "recent history"  but also claims that he "recently" learned of the existence of alternate realities. And he's been tracking alternate realities since at least WI #1. Of course, the Watcher's pretty much immortal, so I don't know what "recent" means to a guy like him. 

This timeline diverges at some point in IM #150, during King Arthur's time, when Dr. Doom strands Iron Man in that past. I don't know the exact page and panel of the divergence, but Ive provided the plot details below. 

Pre-existing scenes: 

Again, I dont have the issues to check, but presumably all of these scenes are from IM #149-150. 

p.2 panel 2  a rebellious lackey of Dr. Doom throws the switch on Doom's time machine, casting Doom and Iron Man into the past. 

p.2 panel 3  Iron Man and Dr. Doom land, ungracefully, in front of the castle of Camelot. 

p.2 panel 4  Iron Man allies himself with King Arthur. They are standing facing one another in this panel. 

p.2 panel 5  Dr. Doom allies himself with Morgana LeFey. He is standing off to her left in this panel. 

p.2 panel 6  Doom and Iron Man face off. Dialogue: 

Doom: "Listen to me, Avenger! We must work together if we are ever to see the 20th century again!" 
Iron Man: "You swore to kill me, Doom! How do I know this isn't a trap?" 

p.2 panel 7  Doom says: "Because, Iron Man, I give you my word!" 

p.2 panel 8  both their armors partially cannibalized, Iron Man and Dr. Doom work together to build a crude time machine. 

p.2 panel 9  their hands together, Iron Man and Doom vanish into the timestream. 

If anyone feels like checking the IM issues and providing the matching page/panel notations  and, more importantly, making sure that none of these scenes are new, it would be appreciated. 

Notes: 

The divergence point for this timeline comes at p.2 panel 6  in the MU, Iron Man replies to Doom "How do I know this isn't a trap?"  a question which causes Doom to give Iron Man his word of honor. However, in the divergent world, Iron Man replies with a different question: 

Iron Man: "You swore to kill me, Doom! How can I trust you?" 
Doom: "Because, Avenger, you have no choice!" 

And of course, in this reality Doom betrayed Iron Man  since he didn't promise not to. 

If anyone can pinpoint where this scene lines up with IM #150  and at exactly which page and panel this world diverges  I'd appreciate it. 


Thanks in advance for the help, folks. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Nov 2004 11:16 pm    
By John Simons

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
p.2 panel 6  Doom and Iron Man face off. Dialogue: 

Doom: "Listen to me, Avenger! We must work together if we are ever to see the 20th century again!" 
Iron Man: "You swore to kill me, Doom! How do I know this isn't a trap?" 

p.2 panel 7  Doom says: "Because, Iron Man, I give you my word!" 
<<<

Jeph!- 

Up until this exchange, the scenes you describe match what happens in IM 149 and 150. The dialogue you mention above is a bit changed from what appeared in IM 150 on p 35 pn 4- p 36 pn 1: 

Doom: "Within the microcircuitry of our armors are electronic components which may-- just may-- be combined to create a warp field strong enough to cast us back to our own time! But much as I regret to say, I cannot do it alone. We must work... together!" 

Shellhead: "You just swore to kill me, Doom! How can I trust you?" 

Doom: "Because, Avenger...you have my word." 

Same sentiments, but different words. 


Quote: 
>>>
p.2 panel 9  their hands together, Iron Man and Doom vanish into the timestream. 
<<<

Are you sure they are gripping hands? In the original (p 38 pn 3 and 4) they are each gripping the opposite end of a hand-held time travel device. 


Quote: 
>>>
If anyone can pinpoint where this scene lines up with IM #150  and at exactly which page and panel this world diverges  I'd appreciate it. 
<<<

Well, if the divergence is that Doom doesn't give his word, it would be IM 150, pg 36 pn 1.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 04 Nov 2004 08:42 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, John. 

In general, I've found that flashback dialogue doesn't always match exactly to the original dialogue. I tend to give flashbacks a lot of leeway in "paraphrasing" the original text, and it appears that this is no exception. The dialogue is clearly different than the original, but not SO different that you could call it "new lines" and entwine it with the original text. 

(Of course, there are times when FBs have characters talking about completely different things ... not coming anywhere CLOSE to paraphrasing the original scene. That'd be what I call a New Scene, even if it wasn't intended as one. Marvel Triple Action #45 comes to mind as a good example, but that's a whole nother topic -- Flashbacks 101 -- that I plan on bringing up, one glorious day in the far future.) 

It's interesting, though, that Iron Man's *original* line from IM #150 is "How can I trust you", and the Watcher shows us flashbacks that give his line as "How do I know this isn't a trap" -- then shows us a DIVERGENT world where the line is "How can I trust you". I thought that it was *Iron Man's* changed line that was the point of divergence -- but I guess that was just writer/editor error, and Doom's reply is the divergence point. 


As for the other thing you mentioned, IM and Doom aren't necessarily touching hands -- there's a bright glow emanating from the space between their hands, and the time machine could be hidden within that glow. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Nov 2004 11:42 am    
By Enda80

Sidebar; this got me thinking of that whole idea of Earth-616 characters in What If framing sequences. I had forgotten that the Earth-616 Avengers had appeared in the WI 9 framing sequence. 

Quick note; the letters page to the Doom became a hero issue states that the 1950's Avengers story did not take on Earth-616. 

Also, the What If someone else became Spidey featured the E-616 Spidey in a quick vignette of saving a Hispanic child. 

What If I#2 has the Earth-616 Hulk in an otherwise untold adventure. 

The Gwen Stacy had lived issue had the E-616 Spidey 

What If I#15 had Napoleon I of Earth-616. 

Also, on the subject of issues that have fb that take place before the point of divergence, What If I#42 and #18 come to mind. The former with Sue, the latter with Agamotto.

Last edited by Enda80 on 05 Nov 2004 04:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 04 Nov 2004 12:12 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

What I'd like to see, ideally and eventually, is every issue of What If fully analyzed in this manner. The things you mention are great -- but not actionable yet, since we don't have all the information that might help determine placement. 

If anyone else wants to start thoroughly investigating the framing sequences of What If issues and posting the results here, I'd welcome it. 

And there'll be more to come from me. I've got about 15 more WI issues to get around to... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Nov 2004 02:39 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

By the way, John, were any of the flashbacks I described from the Iron Man story new? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Nov 2004 03:04 pm    
By John Simons

Didn't sound that way.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Thread 38

Posted: 05 Nov 2004 09:22 pm    Post subject: Alpha Flight v3 #9
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

As promised, here's a brief run-down on AF3 9: 

TEMPORAL REFERENCES: 
Af3 9 occurs the day after AF3 8 (22), since Flashback notes that a scene from that segment occurred "yesterday morning." It is "years" after AF 12. We see green grass and trees at a place (presumably near Centennial's house) where they are having a picnic. There is snow at Alpha Flight's headquarters (which is in a salvaged portion of a Plodex ship, presumably up north.) 

BRIEF PLOT SYNOPSIS: 
A mind-controlled Big Hero 6 attacks Alpha Flight as they picnic. The Flight defeats the Japanese heroes and points out the mid-control device. Just then, Flashback (from the old Omega Flight) arrives on the scene to ask Alpha Flight for help. They go to Flights headquarters. Flashback wants the Flight to go back in time and prevent his future self from getting killed in the past (depicted in AF 28). They determine that they can prevent James Hudson's presumed death in AF 12 while they're at it by stopping Mac from accepting his job with Roxxon. Nemesis uses her magic sword to send Major Mapleleaf back, and he succeeds in preventing James Hudson from taking the job. In the present, Alpha Flight is attacked by Box robots, presumably a result of changed events that Mapleleaf caused. 

CHARACTERS: 
Sasquatch/Walter Langkowski (last in AF3 8) 
Yukon Jack/Yukotujakzurjimozoata (last in AF3 8) 
Centennial/Rutherford Princeton (last in AF3 8) 
Nemesis (last in AF3 8) 
Puck II/Zuzha Yu (last in AF3 8) 
Major Mapleleaf/Lou Sadler (last in AF3 8) 
Thunder (Sadler's flying horse; last in AF3 8) 
Takachiho, Hiro (last in TB 25) 
Go Go Tomago (erroneously called "Go Go Tamayo" -- are writers at Marvel just NOT doing their homework these days?; last in AF2 17) 
Sunpyre/Leyu Yoshida (last in UX 405) 
Honey Lemon (last in AF2 17) 
Baymax (last in TB 25) 
Silver Samurai/Kenyuchio Harada (called "Iron Samurai" here; last in TB 25) 
Flashback/Gardner Monroe (last in AF3 9-FB, below) 
Guardian I/James MacDonald Hudson (only in what may be an alternate past) 

ORIGINAL FLASHBACKS: 
Page 12, panels 1-2 -- Flashback burns his costume to try to prevent his death. This occurs after AF 28 and "several years" before his appearance in AF3 8. 

Page 12, panel 3 -- Flashback wakes up "yesterday morning" (immediately before his appearance on page 22 of AF3 8) 

Page 12, panel 4 -- Flashback looks at the costume hanging in his shower (immediately after his appearance on page 22 of AF3 8) 

Thus, Flashback's updated chronology would look like: 
AF 28 
**AF3 9-FB 
**AF3 8 
**AF3 9-FB 
**AF3 9 

BTW, Sunpyre's chronology would be updated like this: 
X 113 
**UX 402 
**UX 403 
**UX 404 
**UX 405 
**AF3 9
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 09:28 pm    
By Dhall

Isn't Sunpyre dead, on panel, conclusivly? <sigh> 

Sloppy writers.....

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 09:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

We do see Sunpyre severely injured on the floor with Paige proclaiming her "dead" in UX 405, but maybe Paige was wrong. After all, the body was "still warm." Maybe, in the words of Miracle Max, she was just "mostly dead." 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 12:36 am    
By Dhall

ah, well I can accept that, Paige isn't a doctor after all.... 
BTW are you sure she's in UX 403? Did I blink and miss her? 

Dave H.

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 06:33 am    
By Ant-Man

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Silver Samurai/Kenyuchio Harada (called "Iron Samurai" here; last in TB 25) 
<<<

It lists him as THE EBON SAMURAI in the "Roll Call" as the front of the issue, implying that his dress has become somewhat...darker. 
Maybe we can chalk this up to the his last previous appearance, in Elelektra volume 2, when it appeared that Elektra had possibly killed him.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 08:27 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Haven't seen the issue yet, but are we sure it's Keniuchio? Or, given that he was presumed killed and that this guy has a different codename, could it be some new guy? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 05:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
BTW are you sure she's in UX 403? Did I blink and miss her? 
<<<

My mistake. Sunpyre is not in UX 403. I must have copied over my character list from UX 402 and forgot to delete her.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 39

Posted: 06 Nov 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: CFA: Captain Marvel
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm scheduled to finish out Captain Marvel with next weekend's update, but I'm looking for an analysis of CM6 18 (the conclusion of Crazy Like a Fox), if anyone's up to it. 


watching: ohio state v. michigan state

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Posted: 07 Nov 2004 03:00 am    
By John Simons

Genis, Phyla, Elysius, and Eros are all transported into "Nth Space", where Elysisus' and Eros' more expericenced minds are able to alter reality around them as they try to snap Genis out of his "insanity". Genis believes he is at the circus, with various super-heroes and villains performing and sitting in the stands. There is even a version of Rick dressed as the Ringmaster, but these "characters" are all illusionary. Phyla, Elysius and Eros try to keep Genis off-balance as they try to reason with him. Elysisus explains that Epiphany and Entropy manipulated him into recreating the universe, an act which rearranged timelines and caused, among other things, Elysisus's return from the grave, Elysius' decision to create Phyla, and the current "insane" Genis to replace his more heroic and noble counterpart. (There were even more tangential changes, such as Absorbing Man being replaced by the more evil, mental-powered version seen in Bruce Jones' Hulk run) She explains that the universe is sorting itself out and healing, and that Genis is not really insane, merely confused and frustrated, and fooling himself. When Genis finally breaks and exclaims, "I don't want to be insane anymore", all four of them reappear on Titan. Mentor explains to Rick that Genis lacked the maturity to handle receiving cosmic awareness because he had been artificially aged to adulthood. The spokepeople of the Shi'ar, Kree, and Skrulls are skeptical, but Genis creates a new costume for himself and pledges to be a force only for good from now on, and to listen to the guidance of Rick Jones in the future. The Shi'ar spokeswoman decides this is good enough for now, although when all three alien ambassadors depart, she tries to convince her Kree and Skurll counterparts that their empires should ally, after all. Rick and the others seem to think Genis is all right now, but they don't realize that he still hears Epiphany whispering in his ear, "They have no clue you're still insane..." 

Notes: 

*on p11, as Elysius is explaining how Genis recreated the universe, the artwork depicts him kissing Epiphany, Eternity seemingly lying prone, and two tiny little silhouettes which I can't identify. Since I haven't read the Captain Marvel series in its entirety I'm not sure if these are new FBs or merely depicting something that happened in an earlier issue. 

* p12pn 2-3 depicts the 2 versions of the Absorbing Man, in panel 2 the "original" is shown kneeling over what appears to be a bamboo bed holding his sick wife, Titania, in panel 3 a sinister-looking version of Creel is shown sitting in the shadows on a stool (impossible to tell if he is in a jail cell) 
The story does seem to suggest that the Bruce Jones version of the character may have replaced the original in continuity, I guess only future appearences of Absorbing Man can clear this up (or has the character already appeared since this issue came out?) 

Characters appearing: 
ABSORBING MAN (original) 
ABSORBING MAN (Bruce Jones alternate version) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL III 
ELYSIUS 
EPIPHANY (I'm unclear whether this is a real character or a figment of Genis' imagination) 
RICK JONES 
MENTOR 
PHYLA 
STARFOX 
TITANIA 
The unnamed representatives of the Shi'ar, Kree and Skrulls.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 10 Nov 2004 02:24 pm    
By lkseitz

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Notes: 

* p12pn 2-3 depicts the 2 versions of the Absorbing Man, in panel 2 the "original" is shown kneeling over what appears to be a bamboo bed holding his sick wife, Titania, in panel 3 a sinister-looking version of Creel is shown sitting in the shadows on a stool (impossible to tell if he is in a jail cell) 
The story does seem to suggest that the Bruce Jones version of the character may have replaced the original in continuity, I guess only future appearences of Absorbing Man can clear this up (or has the character already appeared since this issue came out?) 
<<< 

Yes, he has. In SHE-HULK #5 and #6. He was back to his original appearance and powers.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 40

Posted: 07 Nov 2004 12:36 pm    Post subject: Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes
By John Simons

Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes #1 
Writer: Joe Casey 
Artist: Scott Kolins 

As this series has no framing sequences but is instead told sequentially, the story is not a FB but simply new scenes to be implanted into continuity. Aside from pp. 17 & 18, which is A 3 p12pn8 redrawn, the comic can be broken down into three distinct sections. 
EDIT: Upon closer examination, p 17-18 do qualify as new material and are placed in the chronologies listed at the end of this post. 

SECTION ONE (p 1-14) 
Takes place over about 24 hours, beginning one night at Stark Industries and concluding the next night after showing Hank and Jan returning home from the meeting. Based on the fact that: 
a) In A 280- FB Iron Man says after their first meeting "We'll print up the charter next week", and the charter is indeed printed up at the second meeting shown here 
and 
b) During a newscast about the first Avengers press conference (shown in A 1.5), which we can presume happened the day after the charter was signed, Cronkite says it has been "just a week" since A 1, 
we can surmise that the first Avengers meeting shown in A 280 follows very close on the heels of their banding together, and the opening of A: EMH 1 happens about a week later. That works out all nice and neat, although there is still the problem of Kurt Busiek giving Tony Stark a TON of things to do between A1 and the press conference, as seen between IM: IA 1 (p22pn3) and IM: IA 2 (p8pn3). I really don't think all of Stark's activities in this period could be mashed down to a single week... 

Characters appearing: 
ANT-MAN 
HAWKEYE 
PEPPER POTTS HOGAN 
HULK 
IRON MAN 
EDWIN JARVIS 
RICK JONES 
THOR 
WASP 
also: VINNIE (a middle-aged guy Clint plays pool with), SID, ( a bartender), MIA (a newsanchor), TED BAILS ( a TV news reporter) 

Continuity notes: Although Tony Stark doesn't announce his "Iron Man is my bodyguard" scam to the general public until later (IM: IA 2 p44pn1), apparently he mentioned it to Jarvis and the Avengers sooner, as there are a couple of references to it. Also there is a minor art mistake as Kolins draws Avengers mansion with a front lawn, although at this point in time the building should be flush with the sidewalk, without a yard. 

SECTION TWO (pp.15-16) 
According to the narration, this scene takes place "two weeks later" (therefore 3 weeks or so after A 1), but again this may be too little time for all the appearences the team makes between A 1.5 and A 3. 

This scene is basically a set-up for the Avengers' search for the Hulk in A 3. 

Characters appearing: 
IRON MAN 
Special Agent MURCH 

SECTION THREE (pp.19-23) 
There are no real time references in this section. It shows what the Avengers were up to in the sub in the moments leading up to discovering Captain America floating in the ocean A 4 (p4pn1). It's a bit odd that Giant-Man seems so riled up about their fight with the Hulk in A 3, but perhaps Casey wasn't aware that there is some passage of time (and other comics appearences for the heroes) between pp 2 and 4 of A 4. 

Characters appearing: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 
GIANT-MAN 
IRON MAN 
THOR 
WASP 
--------------------- 
Character placement follows, with the exception of Iron Man and Pepper Potts. For the past month or so I've been quietly working on a significant suggested overhaul of Iron Man's chronology, currently about 7 pages long and it's still only about 1/2 done! Rather than try to stick A: EMH into the current chronologies I'm gonna wait and make suggestions when I post the full examination of Shellhead's chronology. 

By the way while researching placement of this issue, I came across a one-panel FB that doesn't seem to be in the MCP yet. While Hank Pym is recalling his history in A 227, he recalls a scene that happened on the day they drew up the charter (in other words, during the first FB of A 280), when Wasp showed attraction to Thor and asked Ant-Man "Mmm! Isn't he dreamy?" Hank suspects he will become overshadowed by his teammates, which starts him thinking about a growing power. Since Jarvis mentions Wasp's behavior when they are touring the mansion together (A 280 p7pn1) I believe this scene must've taken place while Jarvis was preparing dinner between panels 4 and 5 of A 280 p6. 

ANT-MAN/DR. HENRY J. PYM 
... 
A 1 
A 280-FB 
**A 227- FB (p13pn5) 
**A 280-FB (p6pn4-p7pn4) 
TTA 47 
TTA 48 
**A: EMH 1 (p1-14) 
A 227-FB 
See Giant-Man 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
CA:SL2 11-FB 
**A: EMH 1 
A 4 
... 

GIANT-MAN/HANK PYM 
... 
TOS 49 
A 3 (p1-12) 
**A: EMH 1 (p17-18) 
**A 3 (p13-25) 
A 4 
... 
TTA 53/2 
**A: EMH 1 (p19-23) 
A 4 
... 

HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 
... 
IM:IA 1 
**A: EMH 1 
{TOS 57} 
... 

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
... 
A 280-FB 
**A: EMH 1 (p 1-14) 
A 1.5 
... 
TOS 49 
A 3 (p1-12) 
**A: EMH 1 (p 17-18) 
**A 3 (p13-20) 
JIM 112-FB 
A 3 
FF 25 
... 

JARVIS, EDWIN 
... 
A 280-FB 
**A: EMH 1 
{TOS 59/2} 
... 

JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE "RICK" 
... 
A 1 
**A: EMH 1 
A 2 
... 

THOR 
A 1 
A 280-FB 
*A 227- FB (p13pn5) (MOVED FROM BTWN. JIM 97 & 98) 
**A 280-FB (p6pn4-p7pn4) 
JIM 97 
(A 227-FB MOVE UP!) 
JIM 98 
**A: EMH 1 (p 1-14) 
A 1.5 
A 2 
TOS 49 
A 3 (p 1-12) 
**A: EMH 1 (p 17-18) 
**A 3 (p13-20) 
JIM 112-FB 
A 3 
A 4 
JIM 99 
JIM 100 
**A: EMH 1 (p19-23) 
A 4 
... 

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 
... 
A 280-FB 
**A 227- FB (p13pn5) 
**A 280-FB (p6pn4-p7pn4) 
TTA 47 
TTA 48 
**A: EMH 1 (p 1-14) 
TTA 49 
A 1.5 
... 
TOS 49 
A 3 (p1-12) 
**A: EMH 1 (p17-18) 
**A 3 (p13-25) 
A 4-BTS 
... 
TTA 53/2 
**A: EMH 1 (p19-23) 
A 4 
...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

Last edited by John Simons on 08 Nov 2004 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 07 Nov 2004 03:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
During a newscast about the first Avengers press conference (shown in A 1.5), which we can presume happened the day after the charter was signed, Cronkite says it has been "just a week" since A 1, 
we can surmise that the first Avengers meeting shown in A 280 follows very close on the heels of their banding together, and the opening of A: EMH 1 happens about a week later. That works out all nice and neat, although there is still the problem of Kurt Busiek giving Tony Stark a TON of things to do between A1 and the press conference, as seen between IM: IA 1 (p22pn3) and IM: IA 2 (p8pn3). I really don't think all of Stark's activities in this period could be mashed down to a single week...  
<<<

John, it sounds like you do not own The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 1 #1 (June 1987). If you're working on early Avengers chronology, you really need to get a copy. On page 48, there is a calendar of appearances from A 1 through A 25. This is an indispensable tool to figuring out the passage of time for these characters. 

A 1 occurs in September (I have it on Sept. 1) and A 1.5 must occur in November, given its placement after TTA 49. This would provide the length of time needed to get things hammered out. I think that the "just a week" statement by Cronkite has to be dismissed. 

I, too, have A 280-FB occurring just after A 1, in early September. Here Tony Stark states that the team has a "complete set of rules and regulations" (which I interpret to mean a draft set of by-laws) and that he'll get the charter printed up next week. We have no reason to believe that the charter wasn't printed by the next week, but I believe that the by-laws were what was holding up the works. Remember that Stark had to hammer a bunch of things out with the NSC and probably other agencies, and the wheels of the bureaucracy turn slowly. In A:EMH 1 (1-14), Stark has brought copies of the charter (which may have existed for many weeks) for the members to sign. Shortly after (though not the next day --see below) Cronkite reports that the (signed) charter has been filed in A 1.5. Going by the Index, this places A:EMH 1 (1-14) in November, two months after A 1. 


Quote: 
>>>
During a newscast about the first Avengers press conference (shown in A 1.5), which we can presume happened the day after the charter was signed,  
<<<

No, because TTA 49 must occur between A:EMH 1 (1-14) and A 1.5. On page 14 of A:EMH 1, Hank Pym speculates about creating a growth formula. This must occur before, not after, TTA 49, in which he succeeds in becoming Giant-Man. Since Pym appears as Giant-Man in A 1.5, A 1.5 must occur after TTA 49. So we need to allow room for TTA 49 and readjust the character chronologies you note. 

Question: Does A 227-FB (13p6) show an original scene -- Pym working with chemicals in his lab to create the growth formula -- or does it repeat something from TTA 49? 


Quote: 
>>>
By the way while researching placement of this issue, I came across a one-panel FB that doesn't seem to be in the MCP yet. While Hank Pym is recalling his history in A 227, he recalls a scene that happened on the day they drew up the charter (in other words, during the first FB of A 280), when Wasp showed attraction to Thor and asked Ant-Man "Mmm! Isn't he dreamy?"  
<<<

No, that's in the MCP (and in your character lists) after JIM 97 and TTA 48 and before JIM 98 and TTA 49. This is where The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #1 places the "Isn't he dreamy" scene. We're supposed to believe that this scene in Avengers Mansion is independent of any other gathering. Thor, Hank, and Jan may have been called in to discuss some of the finer points of the drafts and re-drafts of the by-laws. 


I'm curious about the two-page spread on pages 17-18 of A:EMH 1. Is this indeed a repeat of the scene you noted from A 3, or is it a slightly different (original) shot?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Nov 2004 12:08 am    
By John Simons

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
John, it sounds like you do not own The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 1 #1 (June 1987). If you're working on early Avengers chronology, you really need to get a copy. 
<<<

Oh, I have it. It's just that-- I don't really believe in the calendar. I can't think of any better way to put it. And I'm reluctant to say it, because I know the calendar is, like, your (fandom) life's work. My policy is just to hunker my head down, read through the issues and figure out what order they go in. I couldn't care less what month they fall on on a calendar, or whether the moon was full, or whether it's plausible if a character comments that it's Tuesday. 

The time passages I mention come straight from the comics. But as I mentioned, I already dispute them, so really I came to the same conclusion as you without having to consult the Index calendar you mention. 


Quote: 
>>>
Going by the Index, this places A:EMH 1 (1-14) in November, two months after A 1. 
<<

Well, two months would certainly accomodate things like Stark reviltalizing his entire company. 


Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
During a newscast about the first Avengers press conference (shown in A 1.5), which we can presume happened the day after the charter was signed,  
<<<

No, because TTA 49 must occur between A:EMH 1 (1-14) and A 1.5.  
<<<

Oh yeah. So not the next day, but I do believe I still got the order half-right, read on. 


Quote: 
>>>
On page 14 of A:EMH 1, Hank Pym speculates about creating a growth formula. This must occur before, not after, TTA 49, in which he succeeds in becoming Giant-Man. Since Pym appears as Giant-Man in A 1.5, A 1.5 must occur after TTA 49. So we need to allow room for TTA 49 and readjust the character chronologies you note. 
<<<

I see my error. If you look closely, I did correctly place the section in Hank's chronology, but I had a "blonde moment" I forgot that would mean that Wasp, too, would appear in TTA 49 between A: EMH (1-14) and A 1.5. I'll edit the post! 


Quote: 
>>>
Question: Does A 227-FB (13p6) show an original scene -- Pym working with chemicals in his lab to create the growth formula 
<<<

Yep. 

Quote: 
>>>
-- or does it repeat something from TTA 49? 
<<<

No, that issue opens with a shot the already-enlarged Giant Man having accidentally busted through the front of his house! 


Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
By the way while researching placement of this issue, I came across a one-panel FB that doesn't seem to be in the MCP yet. While Hank Pym is recalling his history in A 227, he recalls a scene that happened on the day they drew up the charter (in other words, during the first FB of A 280), when Wasp showed attraction to Thor and asked Ant-Man "Mmm! Isn't he dreamy?"  
<<<

No, that's in the MCP (and in your character lists) after JIM 97 and TTA 48 and before JIM 98 and TTA 49.  
<<<

I took that to be the just-mentioned "mixing chemicals" scene (p13pn6)-- the citation doesn't appear in Wasp's entry, after all. Hank's narration specifically pegs the "dreamy" scene (p12pn5) as when "we adjourned to draw up our charter", which sure sounds like A 280- FB to me. 

However-- and I don't know how I missed on first glance-- but there is a mention of A 227- FB in Thor's entry between JIM 97 and 98. so it is in Thor's listing, but not Hank's or Jan's. I think it needs to be moved back, for the reasons I already mentioned (time for more post editting!) 

Quote: 
>>>
This is where The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #1 places the "Isn't he dreamy" scene. We're supposed to believe that this scene in Avengers Mansion is independent of any other gathering.  
<<<

Forgive if this is a dumb question, but had A 280 even been published yet when Olshevsky placed this FB? Perhaps he was just taking a guess on when the Avengers might have been doing their charter, since the actual scene hadn't been shown at that time. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm curious about the two-page spread on pages 17-18 of A:EMH 1. Is this indeed a repeat of the scene you noted from A 3, or is it a slightly different (original) shot? 
<<<

Good question. On further examination, I would say the two-spread comes between p12pn8 and p13pn1 of A 3. In p12pn8 Hulk hurls a train car, it is in midair, as are Thor and Iron Man. In the A: EMH 2-pager, the car is smashing into Hank, Shellhead is pulling citizens out of the air, and Thor is swirling his hammer as the car approaches. In p13pn1 Thor smashes up the car with his hammer, and the incredibly speedy Iron Man must've already lowered the people to the ground and flown back up, because he is unencumbered! 

It's a good thing this board allows you to edit posts. 
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 08 Nov 2004 01:33 am    
By Jim Smith

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
I don't really believe in the calendar. I can't think of any better way to put it. And I'm reluctant to say it, because I know the calendar is, like, your (fandom) life's work. My policy is just to hunker my head down, read through the issues and figure out what order they go in. I couldn't care less what month they fall on on a calendar, or whether the moon was full, or whether it's plausible if a character comments that it's Tuesday.  
<<<

Agreed. Nothing against the calendar, per se, but it's a level of analysis I have absolutely no interest in. It frustrates me when the goals of the MCP (just show each characters' appearances in order of occurance) and the Marvel Calendar (figure out what day of the year everything happened) get conflated. Taken too far, the MCP's purpose would become hamstrung by the Calendar's meticulous attention to whether the Xavier Institute starts classes before or after the Fantastic Four go trick-or-treating.

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Posted: 08 Nov 2004 10:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]


Paul B. wrote: 
>>>
This is where The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #1 places the "Isn't he dreamy" scene. We're supposed to believe that this scene in Avengers Mansion is independent of any other gathering. 
<<<
>>>
John S. wrote: 
Forgive if this is a dumb question, but had A 280 even been published yet when Olshevsky placed this FB? Perhaps he was just taking a guess on when the Avengers might have been doing their charter, since the actual scene hadn't been shown at that time.  
<<<

Curiously, A 280 and that Index issue were published the same month. But I see what got me to thinking of that flashback panel (page 13, panel 5) in A 227 as an independent event. In The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers vol. 2 #4, under the entry for A 227, Pym is noted as being in A 227-FB between TTA 48 and 49. I assumed this was a reference to both panels 5 and 6 on page 13 of A 227. However, given that the Index does not include this flashback in either Thor's or the Wasp's chronologies now leads me to believe that the Index was referencing only panel 6 (which featured Hank alone in his lab), not panel 5 (the "Isn't he dreamy" panel). In fact, panel 5 is referenced nowhere in the Index entry for A 227! I'm assuming that they considered panel 5 to be a depiction of a previously published scene. But if we can't find just what scene panel 5 repeats, then I'm all for the placement John suggests -- within that A 280 flashback.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Nov 2004 10:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

John S. wrote: 
>>>
The time passages I mention come straight from the comics. But as I mentioned, I already dispute them, so really I came to the same conclusion as you without having to consult the Index calendar you mention.  
<<<

So then, there's really no problem with the Index's calendar?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Nov 2004 12:22 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
My policy is just to hunker my head down, read through the issues and figure out what order they go in. I couldn't care less what month they fall on on a calendar, or whether the moon was full, or whether it's plausible if a character comments that it's Tuesday.  
<<<

Well, if the temporal references actually help in placement, I don't see the harm. 


Quote: 
>>>
The time passages I mention come straight from the comics 
<<<

Not that I have this "Official Marvel Index to the Avengers" but I suspect that it is based on the time passages mentioned "straight from the comics" as well...But it's good of you to verify everything yourself, and not JUST take the Index's word for it. 


Quote: 
>>>
Agreed. Nothing against the calendar, per se, but it's a level of analysis I have absolutely no interest in. It frustrates me when the goals of the MCP (just show each characters' appearances in order of occurance) and the Marvel Calendar (figure out what day of the year everything happened) get conflated. Taken too far, the MCP's purpose would become hamstrung by the Calendar's meticulous attention to whether the Xavier Institute starts classes before or after the Fantastic Four go trick-or-treating. 
<<<

I'm going to keep stressing this until everyone stops worrying: The Calender is not going to hamstring the MCP. It's creation was designed to serve as an aid to the MCP, not to overwhelm it. Russ runs the MCP. Paul runs the Calender. At times, placement in the MCP will help placement on Paul's calender, and vice versa. But the two projects are NOT going to come to agreement on everything, (just witnessing the disagreements between the two individuals verifies that for me).  

Furthermore, the plot of the comic come first and foremost in determining placement. The Calender follows that rule, just as the MCP does. But beyond that, if temporal references (such as the first day of Fall classes, or Halloween) can aid in determining placement, then great!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Nov 2004 08:40 am    
By Jim Smith

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I'm going to keep stressing this until everyone stops worrying: The Calender is not going to hamstring the MCP. It's creation was designed to serve as an aid to the MCP, not to overwhelm it. Russ runs the MCP. Paul runs the Calender. 
<<<

The confusion for me stems from the fact that work on both projects occurs simultaneously on the same board. I come here because I enjoy the MCP and want to see where I can lend a hand with that, but it seems like every thread I look at has Paul saying such and such can't happen because the Calendar says so, or because the Calendar won't allow it. To me it'd be simpler if the two projects compiled their chronologies for a given period (e.g., Avengers Disassembled) independently, and then compared the results to look for inconsistencies.

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Posted: 09 Nov 2004 08:52 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
It's creation was designed to serve as an aid to the MCP 
<<<

Not exactly. I believe Paul created his calendar before he knew anything about my project. 


Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
The confusion for me stems from the fact that work on both projects occurs simultaneously on the same board. I come here because I enjoy the MCP and want to see where I can lend a hand with that, but it seems like every thread I look at has Paul saying such and such can't happen because the Calendar says so, or because the Calendar won't allow it. 
<<<

Well, the proper response would be, "Sure it can, if you don't follow the calendar." 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 09 Nov 2004 09:23 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'm with Jim Smith on this one -- I've found it hard to articulate, but I too get pretty confused when we work on both projects simultaneously. 

I wish there was an easier way to separate out calendar-related discussions from strict MCP discussions. There's a LOT of overlap, and you can use tools from one method to supplement placement in the other method -- but a lot of the time I find that the discussions merge to a confusing and inseperable degree. 

(Paul referring to his calendar as "Marvel Time", for example.) 

I wish I could better put my finger on what bothers me about it. But Jim's doing a good job of articulating my problems with several of the discussions around here. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Nov 2004 11:30 am    
By John Simons

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So then, there's really no problem with the Index's calendar? 
<<<

Now, I didn't quite say that. I'm only prepared to comment on the window of time we're discussing, the weeks subsequent to the Avengers' formation. And based on my reading of Iron Man: the Iron Age, I would have to agree with Olshevsky's assertion that there are 6-8 weeks between A 1 and A 2.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2004 12:13 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I tend to agree with the points that have been made here; interesting as it is, the Calendar poses all sorts of huge problems, as is obvious from the number of times that it has to pick and choose between date references and so forth. These issues need not necessarily concern the MCP. 

Moreover, and with the best will in the world to Paul, I'm still unconvinced about the validity of the premise - I don't think Marvel or its creators have subscribed to the idea of a concrete, absolute timeline for many, many years now, and the current crop certainly don't seem to. Marvel time (like DC time) is wonky and broken in all sorts of ways, and while I think it's possible to identify a reading order for all Marvel comics, trying to hammer them into an absolute timeline opens up incredible (and, I suspect, insuperable) difficulties. My philosophy is to approach Marvel time as a very, very elastic thing indeed, once you get above the micro-level of "last week" or "last month."
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Nov 2004 01:16 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Not exactly. I believe Paul created his calendar before he knew anything about my project. 
<<<

Well, yeah, Paul's had his Avengers "Year by year calender" (or whatever it's called) and yeah, I know Paul's been setting this up in his head for some time, but I was talking in terms of the "present day" calender, which came into existence out of our discussion of the Kang War. That's what I was referring to: I thought Paul came up with it to help flesh out with the increasinly frustrating chronology that we were encountering at the time. Of course, feel free to strike me down with lightingbolts, Paul, (or whomever) if I'm misremembering, or if I've just gone crazy. 


Quote: 
>>>
The confusion for me stems from the fact that work on both projects occurs simultaneously on the same board. I come here because I enjoy the MCP and want to see where I can lend a hand with that, but it seems like every thread I look at has Paul saying such and such can't happen because the Calendar says so, or because the Calendar won't allow it. 
<<<

You see Paul's comments everywhere because Paul is really vocal about how he sees chronology. It's up to you (or others) to dispute it. Which sometimes you guys do quite well, *coughJephcough*  


Quote: 
>>>
I wish there was an easier way to separate out calendar-related discussions from strict MCP discussions. There's a LOT of overlap, and you can use tools from one method to supplement placement in the other method -- but a lot of the time I find that the discussions merge to a confusing and inseperable degree. 
<<<

Really? Yes, there is indeed a lot of overlap, but I thought you guys (you in particular Jeph) had been pretty good in pointing out where the Calender doesn't always help out. I don't think the answer is to necesarily seperate MCP chronology discussions from Calender discussions, but perhaps we just need to make sure in each thread that we go at each chronology problem not just from the Calender's point of view, but from an MCP point of view as well. Which is actually what I thought we were doing...  We can count on Paul to definently put forward the Calender's point of view when we're discussing chronology. Maybe others should be stepping forward to counter with what they feel the "MCP's point of view" is. 

And actually, maybe we shouldn't call it the "MCP's point of view", because the real "MCP's point of view" will be whatever Russ eventually posts it in a character's chronology as being, and he may not agree with anyone's take on an issue! 


Quote: 
>>>
Moreover, and with the best will in the world to Paul, I'm still unconvinced about the validity of the premise - I don't think Marvel or its creators have subscribed to the idea of a concrete, absolute timeline for many, many years now, and the current crop certainly don't seem to. Marvel time (like DC time) is wonky and broken in all sorts of ways, and while I think it's possible to identify a reading order for all Marvel comics, trying to hammer them into an absolute timeline opens up incredible (and, I suspect, insuperable) difficulties. My philosophy is to approach Marvel time as a very, very elastic thing indeed, once you get above the micro-level of "last week" or "last month."  
<<<

Well, true, it's not the most valid thing...we're never going to truly resolve precisely how many years it's been since FF 1, (though Paul has come up with an answer for the purposes of the calender, but in his own words, it is a "rough estimate". And he did ask for us to humor him on his belief of how much time has passed). 

But I also think the MCP itself is not the most valid thing...I sometimes get depressed, and say, "What's the point of listing all of these characters chronologically, when the writers at Marvel won't heed their own history?" And the sad thing is, this trend will continue, as Marvel writers continue to retread old ground, (messing up previous continuity all the while). 

Listen, I acknowledge that the Calender is somewhat implausible going by Marvel's unwillingness to admit that TIME PASSES in the Marvel Universe, yet I still contribute to the calender anyway. Why? Because I believe it's fun. When Paul posts his latest batch of calender notes, I can see how all these many vast and different titles stack up on a day by day basis, and it's neat to see how it all unfolds when all is said and done. Though it's never entirely "said and done"...but that's the fun in trying to revise it, (same for the MCP)! The Marvel Universe is like a giant jigsaw puzzle, and it's up to us to decipher it!  

John S., I'm sorry if this discussion is overtaking the original purpose of this thread, but it's apparently a discussion that we needed to have.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Nov 2004 11:16 pm    
By Jim Smith

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
The confusion for me stems from the fact that work on both projects occurs simultaneously on the same board. I come here because I enjoy the MCP and want to see where I can lend a hand with that, but it seems like every thread I look at has Paul saying such and such can't happen because the Calendar says so, or because the Calendar won't allow it. 
<<<

Well, the proper response would be, "Sure it can, if you don't follow the calendar." 
<<<

True, but that does sort of go without saying. It would be pointless to argue with Paul about it every single time he refers to the Calendar, since it's obviously a matter of opinion. The only reason I've cared is because I've never been sure (until this thread) whether the MCP closely follows the Calendar or not. Paul sure seems to think it should, and he's a moderator while I'm a lowly newbie, so for all I've known (up to this point) he's right and I'm wrong.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Nov 2004 11:50 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
The only reason I've cared is because I've never been sure (until this thread) whether the MCP closely follows the Calendar or not. Paul sure seems to think it should, and he's a moderator while I'm a lowly newbie, so for all I've known (up to this point) he's right and I'm wrong. 
<<<

Well, I'm not going to begrudge Paul for thinking that it should. It would be difficult to justify the time he puts into it, and then sharing the fruits with everyone, if he didn't. But not everyone has to agree. I will say that if no one disputes Paul's findings, his calendar will carry more weight in my mind. 

I use the calendar a lot--I think it's the greatest single tool we have--but I don't feel bound by it, or locked in by it. Personally, I think I place much less emphasis on the passage of time in the books than any of the other Directors, with the possible exception of Arthur Stein. 

I think the passage of time in a single book, or story, is important, but beyond that, I don't pay any attention, because I don't think Marvel's paying attention. When it comes to holidays, or passing of seasons, or real-world events...well, I start off by trying to place them properly, but if I run into *any* problems, I'm nauseatingly quick to write it off as a topical reference, and never look back. 

In my calendar, almost 45 years have passed since the Fantastic Four raced to the moon. Since my calendar is only intended to help put the stories in order, and since no one will ever see my calendar, that shouldn't bother anyone. 

And as for you considering yourself a lowly newbie. Ah, you young whippersnappers. I can remember the day when Jeph considered himself a lowly newbie.... 


watching: the wire

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:24 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

That's pretty much my view as well - I'm much more concerned about coming up with something that makes for a natural reading order of the stories, than trying to unscramble specifical temporal references. The exceptions would be a handful of stories where the time of year is integral to the plot (for example, Christmas and Hallowe'en stories), and avoiding obvious juxtapositions of completely incongruous seasons (you can't have a Spider-Man Christmas story immediately followed by him going on his summer holiday, whatever the publication order). But otherwise, I think time is almost completely a matter of artistic licence in the Marvel Universe.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 31 Oct 2004 10:15 pm    Post subject: Weapon X2 #1-14,22
By Dhall

Weapon X 2 

#1 

Director 
Kane 
Marrow 
Wild Child 
Sauron 
Aurora 
Washout 
Mesmero 
Brent Jackson 
Box IV / Gemini / Madison Jeffries 
Sabretooth  BTS 
Locus (corpse) 

Zodiac: Aquarius, Aries, Cancer, Capricorn, Leo, Libra, Pisces, Sagittarius, Scorpio, Taurus, Virgo 

#2 
Characters: 
Marrow 
Mesmero 
Director 
Aurora 
Wild Child 
Sauron 
Brent Jackson 
Sabretooth 
Agent Zero / Maverick 

#3 
Characters: 
Agent Zero / Maverick 
Aurora 
Wild Child 
Director 
Omega Red 
Sabretooth 

#4 
Sabretooth 
Wild Child 
Director 
Dr.Windsor (Mr. Sinister) 
Kane 
Sauron 
Marrow 
Washout 
Brent Jackson 
Mesmero 
Madison Jeffries 
Aurora (in fb ) 

Blob 
Avalanche 

In fb: Sabretooth(between issue 2 and 3) 
Aurora, Wild Child (between pages 17 and 18 of issue #2) 
Sabretooth foces Kyle to beg for Auroras life. He makes Kyle watch while he brutalizes Aurora. 

Sabretooth abuses Wild Child for months (before deadpool 57) Kyle does not go to the program for help. (After WX2:WILDCHILD-FB, prior to Deadpool 57) 


#5 

The Director 
Kane, Marrow, Mesmero, Sabretooth, Sauron, Washout, Wild Child 
Leech 
Jack 
Dr. Windsor (aka Mr. Sinister) 

Mr. and Mrs. Taylor 
Billy Taylor 
Wendy Taylor 
Maggott, Dr. Cecilia Reyes 
Eeny 
Meanie 
Ape, Siena Blaze, Bulwark, Diamond Lil, Random, Reaper, Tarbaby, Wildside 

Note: Maggot, Siena Blaze, Ape, Tarbaby, and either Eeny or Meany die in this issue. I picked Eeny at random. The other one (I picked Meany) is next in issue #14, in Sinisters lab. 
Note: WX2 6 occurs after soldier x 12) 

#6 

Characters: 
Director 
Aurora 
Sabretooth 
Colcord, Kathleen 
Darren 
Suzie Colcord 
Jimmy Colcord 
Cable 
Blaquesmith 
Maverick II / Bolt II / Chris Bradley 
Meltdown 
Domino 

Flashback (Page 7 panel 4): Sauron, Marrow, Kane, Washout shows them going into action. 
Ive placed this between Pages 7 and 8 of Weapon X2 #1, right before they burst into Zodiacs castle. 

#7 

Mesmero 
Domino 
Meltdown 
Blaquesmith 

Cable 
Maverick II / Bolt II / Chris Bradley 
Director 
Aurora 
Sauron 
Wild Child 
Brent Jackson 
Kane 
Washout 
Reaper 
Wildside 
Mesmeros mother 

#8 
Characters: 
Mesmero / Vincent (first name revealed this issue) 
Sabretooth 
Mr. Sinister (Dr. Windsor) 
Mesmeros mother 
Reaper 
Wildside 
Domino 
Maverick II / Bolt II / Chris Bradley 
Washout 
Brent Jackson 
Meltdown 
Cable 
Blaquesmith 
Aurora 
Director 

#9 
Characters: 
Kane 
Director 
Aurora 
Marrow 
Brent Jackson 
Washout 
Domino 
Maverick II / Bolt II / Chris Bradley 
Wildside 
Reaper 
Mesmero 
Mr. Sinister (Dr. Windsor) 
Sabretooth 
Washouts father 
Sauron 
Wild Child 

#10 
Characters: 
Director 
Marrow 
Cable 
Blaquesmith 
Domino 
Maverick II / Bolt II / Chris Bradley 
Wildside 
Reaper 
Brent Jackson 
Meltdown 
Aurora 
Sauron 
Washout 
Wild Child 

#11 
Director 
Aurora 
Sauron 
Brent Jackson 
Wild Child 
Mr. Sinister (Dr. Windsor) 
Reaper 
Wildside 
Agent Zero/ Maverick 
Madison Jeffries 
Mesmero 
Kane 
Washout / John Lopez (last name revealed this issue) 
Cable 
Meltdown 
Domino 
Maverick II / Bolt II / Chris Bradley 
Sabretooth 

# 12 
Characters: 
Director 
Sauron 
Brent Jackson 
Wild Child 
Cable 
Meltdown 
Domino 
Blaquesmith 
Maverick II / Bolt II / Chris Bradley 
Kane 
Sabretooth 
Marrow 
Madison Jeffries 

#13 
Characters: 
Director (in fb only) 
Madison Jeffries (in fb only) 
Aurora (in fb only) 
Brent Montgomery Jackson 
Mr. Sinister (Dr. Windsor) (also in fb) 

Cable (also in fb) 
Domino (in fb, and bts in this issue, on Marrows plane) 
Meltdown (in fb, and bts in this issue, on Marrows plane) 
Blaquesmith (in fb, and bts in this issue, on Marrows plane) 
Marrow (also in fb) 
Maverick II / Bolt II / Chris Bradley (in fb only) 
Agent Zero (in fb only) 
Sauron 
Wild Child 
Scalphunter 
Eeny or Meany (I picked Meany at random to survive, and be in this issue.) 

Note: Parts of the issue is told in fbs, all three flashbacks are caught on the security cameras, and occur between Issue 12, and this issue. 

First FB: Pages 1-4: The Director, Jeffries, and Aurora escape the facility. 
Second FB: Page 7 Panels 3-6, Page 8 Panel 1: Dr. Windsor (Sinister) mind-wipes Cable, Domino, Meltdown, and Blaquesmith. They are rescued by Marrow. 
Third FB: Pages 9-11: Agent Zero confronts Maverick II, and demands to know his identity. Maverick II uses his powers and then escapes. 


#22 

Chcarcters: 
Aurora 
Director 
Madison Jeffries 

#14 
1944: 
The Invaders: Namor, original Human Torch, Captain America 
Baron Von Strucker 
Master Man 
Mr. Sinister 
John Greycrow (Scalphunter) 
Nick Fury 
N2 

Present Day: 
Fb with Sinister as Dr. Windsor 
Mr. Sinister 
Scalphunter 
Billy Taylor 
Wendy Taylor 

Flashback1: 1944: Sinister gets a sample of Namors DNA, when Namor attacks a Nazi sub, that Sinister, Master Man, and Strucker are abord. 
Sinister recruits John Greycrow (Scalphunter) who was executed by the Americans army (including Nick Fury.) 
Sinister saves some Jews from the Nazis, but takes them for experimentation of his own. Scalphunter is present. 
Sinister creates N2, based on Namors DNA. His camp is attacked by Namor, the original Human Torch, and Captain America. Cap manages to get the best of N2. 
(This fb is set near the end of the war, but presumably before the Allies enter Germany) 


Flashback 2: Page 20 Panels 3-4: Sinister as Windsor drinks coffee, looks at Neverland on the video screen, and looks at files about the director, and sabretooth. The narration makes it clear that thios occurs after his close call with the director from issue # 11. 

Listings: 

Director 
WX2 0.5 
WX2:SAURON 
WX2:WILDCHILD 
WX2:SAURON 
WX2:MARROW 
WX2:KANE 
WX2:WILDCHILD 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 2 
*WX2 3 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 6 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13 
*WX2 22 



Kane 
C2 39 
W2 142 
W2 143 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
W2 174 
WX2 0.5 
WX2:SAURON 
WX2:MARROW 
WX2:KANE 
*WX2 6-FB 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 


Marrow 
UX 379 
X 99 
UX 380 
SM/M-FB 
SM/M 
WX2:MARROW 
*WX2 6-FB 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 2 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13 

Wild Child 
XF 142 
AF2 3 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
*WX2:WILDCHILD-FB 
*WX2 4-FB 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
*WX2 0.5 
*WX2:SAURON 
*WX2:WILDCHILD 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 2 
*WX2 3 
*WX2 4-FB 
*WX2 3 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13 



Sauron 
DPOOL3 61 
WX2 0.5-FB 
WX2:SAURON 
*WX2 6-FB 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 2 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13 


Aurora 
W2 142 
W2 143 
UX 379 
W2 171 
W2 172 
W2 173/2 
WX2:WILDCHILD 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 2 
*WX2 3 
*WX2 4-FB 
*WX2 3 
*WX2 6 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 13 
*WX2 22 


Washout 
XFOR 129 
WX2 0.5 
*WX2 6-FB 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 

Mesmero / Vincent (real first name should be added to his listing) 
DPOOL3 61 
WX2 0.5 
WX2:SAURON 
WX2:MARROW 
WX2:WILDCHILD 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 2 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 11 


Jackson, Brent Agent 
WX2 0.5 
WX2:SAURON 
WX2:WILDCHILD 
WX2:SAURON 
WX2:KANE 
WX2:WILDCHILD 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 2 
*WX2 3 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13 


Box IV / Gemini / Madison Jeffries 
AF 110 
AF 111-BTS 
AF2 1 
AF2 12 
*WX2 1 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13 
*WX2 22 



Sabretooth 
W2 165 
W2 166 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
*WX2:WILDCHILD-FB 
*WX 2 4-FB 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 58 
DPOOL3 59 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
*W2 170 
*W2 171 
*W2 173 
*W2 174 
*WX2 0.5 
*WX2 1-BTS 
*WX2 2 
*WX2 4-FB 
*WX2 3 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 



LOCUS 
XFOR 78 
XFOR 79 
XFOR 80 
XFOR 85 
*WX2 1 (corpse) 


Agent Zero / Maverick 
MAV2 12 
W2 163 
W2 164-BTS 
W2 166 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
*WX2 2 
*WX2 3 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 13 

Omega Red 
UX 380 
W2 170 
W2 173 
W2 174 
*WX2 3 



Blob 
X 112 
UX 401 
UX 402 
UX 403 
UX 404 
UX 405 
UX 406 
*WX2 4 


Avalanche 
C2 87 
UX 401 
UX 402 
UX 403 
UX 404 
UX 405 
UX 406 
*WX2 4 


Leech 
GENX 60 
GENX 68 
GENX 69-BTS 
*W2 173 
*WX2 5 

Cable 
C2 105 
BHOOD 8 
C2 106 
C2 107 
*WX2 6 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13-FB 
*WX2 13 
UX 425 
UX 426-BTS 

Blaquesmith 
X:SC 4 
C2 89 
C2 90 
C2 91 
C2 94 
*WX2 6 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13-FB 
*WX2 13-BTS 

Maverick II / Chris Bradley 
From Bolt II 
*WX 6 
*WX 7 
*WX 8 
*WX 9 
*WX 10 
*WX 11 
*WX 12 
*WX 13-FB 

Meltdown 
XFOR 113 
UX 388 
XFOR 114 
XFOR 115-FB 
XFOR 117 
*WX2 6 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13-FB 
*WX2 13-BTS 

Domino 
X '01 
*WX2 6 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 12 
*WX2 13-FB 
*WX2 13-BTS 
UX 425 
UX 426-BTS 

Reaper II 
X 14 
XF 85 
X 15 
XFOR 26 
XFOR 27 
XFOR 28 
EXI 
EX 1 
EXVX 0 
EX 2 
EX 3 
EX 4 
EX 5 
EX 6 
EX 7 
EX 8 
EX 9 
EX 10 
EX 11 
ULTRAF 12 
ULTRAUNL 2 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 

Wildside 
XCAL 104 
XCAL 105 
XFOR 67 
XFOR 68 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 7 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 10 
*WX2 11 

Jack 
WX2:SAURON 
*WX2 5 




APE/ 
PP 12 
UX 195 
PP 19 
XF 10 
PP 27 
XF 11 
XF 12 
XF 13 
XF 15 
*WX2 5 

Siena Blaze 
UX@ 17/2 
UX 301 
NW 45 
NW 46 
EXI 
EX 1 
EXVX 0 
EX 2 
EX 3 
EX 4 
EX 5 
EX 6 
EX 7 
EX 8 
EX 9 
EX 10 
EX 11 
ULTRAF 12 
ULTRAUNL 2 
*WX2 5 

BULWARK/ 
GENX 13 
*WX2 5 

Diamond Lil 
AF 109/2 
AF2 1-BTS 
AF2 5 
AF2 19-FB 
AF2 6 
AF2 19-FB 
AF2 11 
AF2 18 
*WX2 5 

Random II 
XF 126 
XF 144-FB 
XF 144 
QS 8 
QS 9 
X 112 
*WX2 5 

TARBABY 
PP 12 
UX 195 
PP 19-BTS 
XF 10 
PP 27 
XF 11 
XF 12 
XF 15 
*WX2 5 

Maggott 
X 79 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
UX 368 
*WX2 5 

Eeny 
X 77 
X 79 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
*WX2 5 

Meany 
X 77 
X 79 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 14 

Dr. Cecilia Reyes 
X 100 
X 101 
X 102 
X 106 
X 107 
UX 389 
UX 390 
*WX2 5 


**Colcord, Kathleen 
*WX2 6 

**Colcord, Suzie 
*WX2 6 

**Colcord , Jimmy 
*WX2 6 

**Mr. Taylor 
*WX2 5 

**Mrs. Taylor 
*WX2 5 

**Taylor, Billy 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 14 

**Taylor, Wendy 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 14 

SCALPHUNTER / Greycrow, John (real name should be added to his listing) 
*WX2 14 
UX 193-BTS 
XF 38-FB 
.. 
XM 19 
C2 '99 
GAM3 8 
GAM3 9 
*WX2 13 
*WX2 14 

(Note: I have no idea which version of the Zodiac characters are which, these would all probably be the latest version) 

Aquarius 
*WX2 1 

Aries 
*WX2 1 

Cancer 
*WX2 1 

Capricorn 
*WX2 1 

Leo 
*WX2 1 

Libra 
*WX2 1 

Pisces 
*WX2 1 

Sagittarius 
*WX2 1 

Scorpio 
*WX2 1 

Taurus 
*WX2 1 


Mr. Sinister 
C&P2 4 
C2 '99-FB 
X:HC 3 
X '95-FB 
*WX2 14-FB 
UX 241-FB 
XF 39-FB 
.. 
UX 380 
GAM3 15 
X 102-FB 
XU 30/2 
W2 173 
*WX2 4 
*WX2 5 
*WX2 8 
*WX2 9 
*WX2 11 
*WX2 14-FB 
*WX2 13-FB 
*WX2 13 
*WX2 14 


**N2 (A being derived from Namors DNA) 
*WX2 14-FB 


The following characters appear in the Flashback in WX2 14 which occurs in 1944. As such I cannot place them, without your help: 

Namor 
*WX2 14-FB 

original Human Torch 
*WX2 14-FB 

Captain America 
*WX2 14-FB 

Baron Von Strucker 
*WX2 14-FB 

Master Man 
*WX2 14-FB 

Nick Fury 
*WX2 14-FB

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Nov 2004 01:23 am    
By SeanCurtin

The Zodiac from WX2 1 are the same group from AF2 1-12. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2004 12:12 am    
By Enda80

Master Man is easy, because Medusa Effect takes place in 1943. 
By the way, did Master Man appear in Marvel Comics Presents#123? 

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/capcapta.htm gives the following chronology for Cap 
ToS#79/2(fb), Cap I#237(fb), Cap:SoL#12(fb5), Cap Comics#78, Weapon X II#14(fb/1944), CapAn13(fb), [Spectacular Spider-Man III#15 (fb/1945>)], Cap:SoL#7, Cap:SoL#12(fb6) Cap:SoL#7/3(fb6),Av I#56/Cap:SoL#12(fb3)/Captain America IV#26(fb3), Av4(fb)/Cap220(fb?). 

Nick Fury....well, as it stands, Fury's own title has not been extensively gone through, but the Captain America#9/2 story takes place in 1944, as does Spider-Woman#42 (fb). Captain America#9/2 takes place in April 1944. 

Also, despite what others think, Steve Rogers was not put on ice until May 1945, per Captain America Annual#13. 

Last edited by Enda80 on 07 Nov 2004 01:03 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2004 12:50 am    
By SeanCurtin

Given that this is 1944, this would have to be the third Cap in WX2 14-FB. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2004 02:40 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, did Master Man appear in Marvel Comics Presents#123? 
<<<

Someone, identified as Master Man (Wilhelm Lohmer), dies in Marvel Comics Presents #123, fourth story. 
How this fits in with his appearance in Cable 51 & 52 is a good question. 
Maybe he was only mostly dead? 
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2004 09:12 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Wait, wait. Sean, John -- 

WHEN was Cap frozen in ice? 

John (Enda80) mentions Cap Annual #13 as evidence for May 1945 -- Sean, what have you got as evidence for 1944? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2004 12:33 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I think Sean is saying it was prior to 1944. He says that since this story occurs in 1944, it can't be the original Cap. 


watching: three stooges

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2004 02:01 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Wait, wait. Sean, John -- 

WHEN was Cap frozen in ice? 

John (Enda80) mentions Cap Annual #13 as evidence for May 1945 -- Sean, what have you got as evidence for 1944? 
<<<

What If (first series) #4 states that Cap was frozen in 1945, and Cap II was appointed by President Truman just a few weeks after Roosevelt's death. 

Just reread the issue, and discovered a date, colonel Farrow reading a telegram to the remaining members of the Invaders says. 
'The following Top Secret dispatch is dated April 18, 1945'
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 07 Nov 2004 02:39 pm    
By Enda80

Cap@13 establishes that Captain America (Steve Rogers) had his last battle during World War II with the Red Skull on April 30, 1945 as the Human Torch burned up Hitler-and that the Spirit of '76 and the Patriot were with Cap. The Red Skull was then placed in suspended animation. So, it was the Steve Rogers Cap who fought the Red Skull in the battle where the Red Skull was placed in suspended animation. Ergo, Cap's battle with Zemo must take place after April 30, 1945-so the Red Skull should have been in suspended animation already. 

Interestingly, Spider-Man: Fear Itself reveals that Baron Zemo visited Hitler earlier that day, in flashback one the first page that is continued later on in the story. Hitler informed Zemo of his intention to kill himself, and on that day Hitler promised Zemo immortality; "Zola will see to that". Zola refers to Arnim Zola who as we know saved Hitler's mind and implanted it in a cloned body. Apparently Zemod did not trust Zola, but a soldier present overheard what Hitler said to Zemo, and years later informed one of Silver Sable's operatives about what was said. Somehow, the Baroness learned of that exchange between Hitler and Zemo, and concocted a story of being Baron Heinrich Zemo in a cloned female body. 

Both of these stories make Zemo's dialogue in Avengers I#56 curious; he says he will send the stolen plane to "Der Fuerhrer".... but Hitler had told him of his intention to kill himself. However, since Hitler told him about Zola, perhaps Zemo was obliquely referring to Yahweh's servant's continued existence in the cloned body Zola provided. 

I must check out Cap#220, Saga of the Human Torch, Saga of the Sub-Mariner, Sub-Mariner @1.

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Posted: 07 Nov 2004 05:03 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Peter Fabricius wrote: 
Someone, identified as Master Man (Wilhelm Lohmer), dies in Marvel Comics Presents #123, fourth story. 
How this fits in with his appearance in Cable 51 & 52 is a good question. 
Maybe he was only mostly dead?  


Kind of like how he was presumed deceased after his appearance in Namor. Anyway, CA@ 13-FB does indeed confirm that Cap was frozen sometime after April 1945. 

-Sean

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Posted: 08 Nov 2004 02:11 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Yes, unfortunately the story takes place in a hospital. 

Re: Cap and April 30, it can't be much later, May first is the earliest, and Germany capitulates May 7th. And we have the obligatory full moon when the Invaders are informed about Cap's "death".
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 01:02 am    
By DonCampbell

Regarding the "Master Man" who died in Marvel Comics Presents #123, I vaguely recall that there was a CABLE letters page (after #52) in which a reader asked about MM's apparent death. I think it was suggested that the nurse in that story, the only person who "recognized" the old man as the former Master Man, had perhaps made a mistake. Maybe it was some other aged former Nazi super-villain who died in that story and was misidentified by the nurse? This would make it possible for the real Wilhelm Lohmer to still be alive for the later storyline in which he sacrificed his life for Cable. 

As for the date of Captain America's disappearance, in CAPTAIN AMERICA #332 the chairman of the Commission (on Superhuman Activities) states that Captain America "disappeared on May 2, 1945, but (was) never officially declared dead." This is inconsistent with that WHAT IF? issue which had Cap disappearing on April 18, 1945 and the other Invaders not learning of it until after the Human Torch killed Hitler on April 30, 1945. However, it is consistent with CAPTAIN AMERICA ANNUAL #13 which indicated that the original Cap's final wartime battle with the Red Skull took place on the same night that the Human Torch killed Hitler. 

If the WI? story were correct, then Captain America and Bucky would have died almost two weeks before the Invaders were notified of their deaths. I'm not sure how plausible that was, even when the story was first published. I guess the "April 18th" reference should just be ignored from now on? 

For what it's worth, WI? 4 was written in 1977 by Roy Thomas, CA 332 was written in 1987 by Mark Gruenwald, and CA @13 was written in 1994 by Roy Thomas. I guess Thomas, when writing the latter story, decided to accept Gruenwald's date over his own earlier choice. 

Added: Saga of the Sub-Mariner #5 has a scene of the Invaders meeting from WHAT IF? #4. After Toro confirms that it was the Human Torch who killed Hitler, Colonel Farrow tells the Invaders, "I'm afraid we've received a top-secret dispatch - - saying (Captain America) and young Bucky were evidently killed in action, defending a base south of London." Namor's narrative of this panel adds, "It was years before the world learned that Steve Rogers, at least, had not perished in April, 1945." 

Saga of the Original Human Torch #4 (Error: it was issue #3) shows the Human Torch and Toro killing Hitler in his bunker on April 30, 1945 and then adds "back in London, we'd learn that Captain America and Bucky were missing and presumed dead." 

Don Campbell

Last edited by DonCampbell on 16 Nov 2004 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 10:20 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The only way that the "April" reference can work is if Cap and Bucky were frozen the same night that the Torch killed Hitler and the Red Skull was placed in suspended animation - but the fight with Zemo has always been depicted as a daytime scene, so that can't work. Possibly April 30th was the last time that the Allies heard from Cap and Bucky, meaning that that was when they would be considered to have 'disappeared', but not when they were frozen, leaving the option of retaining the May 2 reference from CA 332 intact. It's not inconcievable that Cap would have gone on an emergency mission right after Hitler's death and been unable to contact the Invaders for two days - less than that, if he left late at night on April 30 and was lost at sea in the early morning of May 2. This would have to place the Invaders' learning of Cap's 'death' and Bucky's actual death (if the body had been recovered by then) on May 2 at the earliest. 

-Sean

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Posted: 16 Nov 2004 12:20 am    
By Kevin w. [DIRECTOR]

Did Captain America know of Hitler's death before being frozen? I got the impression from reading Mark Waid's first run on Captain America, (#445-448) that Captain America was frozen in ice BEFORE Hitler's death, (or at least, before he LEARNED of Hitler's death).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Nov 2004 11:59 am    
By DonCampbell

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
The only way that the "April" reference can work is if Cap and Bucky were frozen the same night that the Torch killed Hitler and the Red Skull was placed in suspended animation - but the fight with Zemo has always been depicted as a daytime scene, so that can't work. Possibly April 30th was the last time that the Allies heard from Cap and Bucky, meaning that that was when they would be considered to have 'disappeared', but not when they were frozen, leaving the option of retaining the May 2 reference from CA 332 intact. It's not inconcievable that Cap would have gone on an emergency mission right after Hitler's death and been unable to contact the Invaders for two days - less than that, if he left late at night on April 30 and was lost at sea in the early morning of May 2. This would have to place the Invaders' learning of Cap's 'death' and Bucky's actual death (if the body had been recovered by then) on May 2 at the earliest. 
<<<

It was only to be thorough that I mentioned that April reference from Saga of the Sub-Mariner #5, I wasn't presenting it as proof of anything. Remember, that whole LS turned out to be Namor's autobiography. And when you consider how many times Namor has suffered from amnesia, it's understandable that he could misremember a date that was over forty years in the past. 

As for Saga of the Original Human Torch #3, that story doesn't make any mention of how soon after Hitler's April 30th death the next meeting of the Invaders took place in London so there's no problem there. However, I'm not sure if the original version of that scene (from WHAT IF? #4) was as flexible. 

One small temporal discrepancy from SotOHT #2. That story has a scene at which the Invaders are told that President Roosevelt had died that morning. Colonel Farrow then assigned Captain America and Bucky to guard a top-secret drone plane at the airbase just south of London, and later told the Human Torch and Toro that he had a few minor missions for them and then, in a week or so, they would be going to Berlin to try to capture Adolf Hitler alive. Since FDR died on April 12th and the Berlin mission didn't take place until April 30th, there was obviously a greater delay than Farrow had anticipated. Also, the story in Captain America Annual #13 depicts Cap's mission to invade the Red Skull's bunker and retrieve Hitler's top-secret strongbox. During that mission, Cap mentions that the Human Torch and Toro are (or will be) handling the invasion of Hitler's bunker. Later, once his mission is completed, Cap mentions that he and Bucky "have to guard an airdrome back in England." If Cap's mission took place on the same night as (or just before) the Human Torch's mission, then he was only BACK guarding the drone plane for a few days before his fateful encounter with Baron Zemo (who had been sent to Britain by the Red Skull before the Skull's apparent death). 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Did Captain America know of Hitler's death before being frozen? I got the impression from reading Mark Waid's first run on Captain America, (#445-448) that Captain America was frozen in ice BEFORE Hitler's death, (or at least, before he LEARNED of Hitler's death). 
<<<

I am not aware of any story which specifically states that Captain America knew of Hitler's death before he was frozen. For what it's worth, the story in Captain America #220 (which may no longer be canon) told how Steve Rogers was rescued from the English Channel by scuba divers who brought him aboard the U-boat commanded by ex-Nazi spy-turned-renegade Lyle Dekker. That U-boat then brought Cap to Dekker's secret base in Newfoundland (where Dekker's mercenary army was based) and from which Cap later escaped. However, while that story makes no mention of Hitler's death, Dekker does state that "Hitler and his Third Reich no longer concern me." 

Don Campbell

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Thread 42

Posted: 19 Nov 2004 01:17 pm    Post subject: CFA: Home Depot Safety Heroes
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Hey, all -- 

I just learned about this stealth issue: Home Depot Safety Heroes. Apparently it was a recent giveaway at Home Depots, but my local ones don't seem to know anything about it. I've seen a few on eBay, but they're going for $30+ which is a bit steep for my tastes. 

I don't know if this book is necessarily canon or not, but I thought I'd put a CFA out for anyone who might have a copy... or lives close to a Home Depot that's distributing them.

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Thread 43

Posted: 20 Nov 2004 02:33 am    Post subject: Spider-Man: Legacy of Evil
By JLH

SPIDER-MAN: LEGACY OF EVIL [JUN 96] 
Writer: Kurt Busiek 
Artist: Mark Texeira 

GREEN GOBLIN IV/PHIL URICH 
**SM:LOE 
GG 1 
GG 2 
**{WOSM 125} (his first appearance isn't currently denoted as such) 
PPTSS 225 

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
ASM:FO 1 
**SM:LOE 
WOSM 122 

MOLTEN MAN/MARK RAXTON 
PPTSS 204 
**SM:LOE 
PPTSS 234 

OSBORN, HARRY 
PPTSS 200 
**SM:LOE-BTS (corpse exhumed, casket seen, but body not shown) 

OSBORN, LIZ ALLAN 
PPTSS 205 
**SM:LOE 
ASM 400 

OSBORN, NORMIE 
PPTSS 204 
**SM:LOE 
ASM 400 

ROBERTSON, JOE (shouldn't he be listed as "Robertson, Joseph "Robbie"", since he's called Robbie far more than Joe?) 
ASMU 8 
**SM:LOE 
WOSM 122 

ROSE IV/JACOB "JAKE" CONOVER 
ASMU 3/2-BTS 
**SM:LOE-BTS (Ben Urich mentions the Bugle put Conover on stories while he was on leave of absence) 
PPTSS 235 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
ASMU 8 
**SM:LOE-FB 
**SM:LOE 
WOSM 122 
ASM 399 
S-M 56 
**PPTSS 222 (absent from MCP, though this issue is in all other characters' chronology) 
WOSM 123 
ASM 400 

THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH" 
ASMU 6/3 
**SM:LOE 
PPTSS 222 

URICH, BEN 
ASMU 8 
**SM:LOE 
DD 339 

Three Goblin Women 
-Robots. Called "Goblinettes" in some places, but sure not in the story. All destroyed. 

Osborn Chemical's unnamed PERSONNEL DIRECTOR 
[EDIT: I recently found out who he is, finally! 

MENKEN, DONALD L. 
ASM 239 
**S-M:LOE 
SENSM 10] 

an unnamed former employee of Norman Osborn (black male) 

an unnamed former society friend of Norman Osborn (older blonde female) 

an unnamed former Underling of Norman Osborn 

unnamed Psychiatrist at Norman Osborn's Club 

unnamed Police Detective who investigated the original Green Goblin 
(knowing Kurt Busiek's writing, some, if not all, of these characters likely have appeared before, but nothing stands out about them, and I don't have the courage to email him asking, "Hey, who were those ancillary characters in that story you did 8 years ago?") 


Summary: Ben Urich researches his book on the history of the Green Goblin, and the legacy of Norman and Harry Osborn, leading both he and Spider-Man into Harry's posthumous attempt to turn his son Normie into the next in the line of Goblins. 

Chronology note: This story is said to take place 'Before Green Goblin #1', due to that story's use of the 'Dynasty of Evil' book as already having been written (getting ready to be published), and this story's use of a pre-GG Phil Urich. Since Phil debuted in WOSM 125, where Peter Parker was just out of prison, and wearing the Scarlet Spider costume, and this is before GG 1, which took place a short time prior to WOSM 125, I've placed this at a point prior to WOSM 123, which set into motion the events leading directly to Peter going to prison briefly. It COULD take place within ASM 400, as CPU 1 does, or even between S-M 56 and PPTSS 222, but since at least three days pass in this story, it needs to be in an uncomplicated area for Spidey at least. 

[EDIT: I finally pinpointed what the flashback to the first time Spidey ran afoul of the mind-altering machine of the Osbornes. It's Spectacular Spider-Man annual 14, which is still within the gap, I believe. That story takes place after the Lifetheft storyline, so it at least provides a clear boundary of how early SM:LOE can or can't take place.] 

A one-panel original Flashback tells how Spider-Man spotted the Female Goblins first, and followed them to Liz's apartment. 

JLH

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Thread 44

Posted: 21 Nov 2004 04:04 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk Issues #71-74.
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, here's the start of another batch of reviews. Note to Paul: I know you bought these issues because they had Iron Man in them, but I figured since I started reviewing all of the Bruce Jones' Hulk issues, I might as well review ALL of them. That way they can be of use if not for your calender, at least they can be for the MCP. Though maybe you'll find some things in here which'll help the calender, Paul. 

Moving on: This story arc was painful to read. It makes Tony out to be a total adrenaline junkie, (always living life on edge) and the murder mystery was kinda absurd. But here's the review: 

Hulk #71: 
"Big Things: Part 1" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Art by Mike Deadato 

Appearances: Tony Stark, Bruce Banner. New characters: Lisa Cummings, Jack Rutledge, Ricki and Nicole March, (not their real last names, but anyway), and Jeeves, (a different butler for Stark besides Jarvis! Blasphemy!) 

Synopsis: It's convoluted...let's just go over this from start to finish: 

There are several flashbacks over the first two pages which I will note here. All flashbacks on pages 1 and 2 seem to flow together, though they span a period of what is probably weeks. As we see all of the following images, we read a narrative given by Lisa Cummings, who is made out to be a lover of Tony Stark's. The narrative is what's supposed to be a suicidal confession note left by Lisa. The note basically says that while Tony is a wonderful lover, she feels that the project they've been working on together is getting out of control, and that Tony is getting out of control, and so she can't go on with the project they're working on, so she kills herself... 

Page 1, panel 1: FB- A shot of Tony and Lisa Cummings hugging each other on a boat. 

Page 1, panel 2: FB- A shot of Tony and Lisa in a gambling casino, rolling dice and placing bets together. 

Page 1, panel 3: FB- A shot of Tony sitting in a labratory in front of a computer, pondering something... 

Page 1, panel 4: FB- A shot of Tony and Lisa walking hand in hand along a beach. 

Page 1, panel 5-6: (though there's a line through the center of the panel, thus making it two panels, this is one image): FB- Tony Start standing over some design plans, reading intently, while off in the back ground, Lisa looks sad that Tony is focusing so much on his work... 

Page 2, panel 1: FB- A shot of Tony and Lisa out at a dance club, Tony looks like he's partying hard, but Lisa looks sad... 

Page 2, panel 2: FB- A shot of Tony at his company's lab, yelling at some of his workers; he's apparently getting frustrated. 

Page 2, panel 3: FB- A shot of Iron Man standing in front of a gamma bomb explosion. We later learn that Tony's putting a test armor out there, he's not in it in this shot. 

Page 2, panel 4: FB- A shot of police breaking into Lisa Cummings home, finding her dead, having overdosed on pills. 

Page 3-23: Now we cut to "the present" as we see that Bruce Banner, still on the run from "the Secret Conspiracy" has ended up in Los Angeles. Now just last issue, in Hulk #70, he was somewhere in Californa, (in a small town) and since he's now in LA, the issues may happen fairly close to one another. 

Anyway, Banner stumbles onto a press conference given by Tony Stark, who is being assaulted by reporters with questions about his relationship to the dead Lisa Cummings. He denies being anything more than a friend to her. The reporters also ask what project Tony's working on now, and ask if it's true that he's working on a gamma bomb. Tony denies it, but this has captured Banner's interest. He starts surveiling Tony Stark, and keeping watch over what Tony's lab is working on out here in LA. Banner even buys a listening device, and listens in on Tony talking to his fellow coworker, Jack Rutledge. 

Later on that night, Banner is tracking Tony to a dance club, but Tony gets the drop on Banner, confronting Banner in a backalley. Tony doesn't recognize Banner at first, and they have a misunderstanding. Just then, a mysterious assassin hovering nearby fires at Stark, but hits Banner. Banner becomes the Hulk, and Tony becomes Iron Man. A police car comes by, and they stop fighting, with Hulk quickly reverting to Banner, and Tony dropping the armor. Both men realize that all is not what it seems, so Tony ends up driving Banner, (along with a couple of calender girls from the dance club, called Ricki and Nicole aka Ms. March) back out to Stark's mansion on the outskirts of Los Angeles. He is greeted there by his handy butler Jeeves...yes, apparently Tony has a whole different mansion and butler on the West Coast...I don't suppose any of this was ever covered in West Coast Avengers? 

By now it's getting pretty late in the evening...Tony allows Banner to spend the night in Tony's own personal room. Banner starts snooping around, and finds Lisa Cummings' diary, which has the suicide note entry. Just then, in through the window bursts the mystery assassin from earlier, who fights Banner, who transforms into the Hulk again... 

That's how this issue ends. 

References: 

Pgs. 3-23: I conclude all this happens on one day, (just for minimalism's sake, though there's not evidence to the contrary). The scenes with Banner spying on Stark Enterprises and on Tony may be spread out over days, but I see no reason to do so... 

Page 3: Lisa Cumming's body is noted as "found Wednesday in her Westwood Apartment by Authorities, victim of an apparent suicide." So that event happened on Wednesday... 

Also on Page 3, as Banner watches the TV photo about Iron Man, we see an image which the news reporter calls "stock footage of Tony Stark...in full Iron Man regalia." The image is of Iron Man fighting a creatures that looks vaguely like the Rhino, or more closely like the Rhino we were introduced to in Uncanny Xmen, who was being kept in jail in Canada, and having scientific experiments conducted on him, turning him into some sort of freak...but the horn on this creature is on backwards...I frankly don't know what this creatures is supposed to be, and the narrative doesn't say. Hasn't the Rhino appeared elsewhere in his "normal costume" since those issues of Uncanny Xmen? 

Also, the narrative clearly states that Iron Man and Tony Stark are one and the same...so this is during the period where the public knows about Tony being Iron Man. 

Page 4: The newscast that Banner's watching also notes Tony Stark as being a "Nobel Peace Prize winner and last year's Time Magazine's 'Man of the Year'." Wow...last year must've been a good year for Tony! 

Hulk #72: 
"Big Things: Part 2: Strange Bedfellows" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Art by Mike Deadato 

Appearances: Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Jeeves, Nicole March, Richard Cummings, Jack Rutledge, New character: Charlie Haskle, (appears in flashback only). 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-5: Picking up right were we left off, Tony charges down the hall to the room Banner's staying in, to find the Hulk tearing up the room. Tony tries to get Hulk to calm down, to no avail. Just then, into the room comes Nicole March, one of the calender girls staying at Tony's place. She's in a bikini, having gotten ready to jump into a hot tub, and the Hulk catches a glimpse of her, and he focuses on her, and calms down, (similar to the past meditation techniques seen used in previous issues of Bruce Jones' run on the Hulk). He reverts to Banner. Wounded, yet still awake, the assassin places a listening bug on Tony's pants when Tony has his back turned to Banner. We learn that this new figure is Richard Cummings, brother of Lisa Cummings, the girl who supposedly commited suicide last issue. Richard doesn't believe that Lisa was the type to kill herself, and believes Stark murdered her. Banner and Tony takes Richard prisoner, tying him up and leaving him in a wine cellar at the mansion. 

Pg. 6-17: Cut to what I feel to be the next evening. Banner and Stark get in Stark's car and head back to Tony's lab. Yet they just got home to Tony's mansion at the end of last issue, (and that was the middle of the night). Yet here they're travelling immediately back to Tony's lab? That's why I feel it's the next evening. 

Anyway, as noted, Banner and Stark head to Tony's lab, where Tony explains everything to Banner. Tony left Lisa's diary in the bedroom for Banner to find on purpose: Tony wanted to see what Banner would think of Lisa's diary, to see if he came to the conclusion that Tony was innocent of anything to do with Lisa's death. Banner in the end believes him. Tony goes on to explain what project he and Lisa had been working on for the last few weeks. 

Page 7, Panels 3-6 (of 6) to Page 8, panels 1-2, (of 4): FB-According to Tony, this scene happened, "a few months ago". In flashback, we see Tony being approached by a top government intelligence man who goes by the name of Charlie Haskle, aka "Charlie Charm". Charlie says the President would like Tony's help. The President is concerned about a possible dirty bomb attack on American soil, and they want Tony to design a radiation proof version of his Iron Man armor, to help with cleanup of any irradiated areas hit by a dirty bomb. 

So Tony shows Banner the new Iron Man suit that he and "old college partner" Jack Rutledge concocted. He even gets Banner to test it out, (in a rather pointless sparring match scene). Tony says they completed the initial suit in time for the government's tight deadline, (Stark notes that they worked on it for "weeks") but figured out that the suit would work against regular radiation, but would be ineffective against Gamma radiation, such as the type used in Gamma Bombs, (which Banner is all to familiar with). Tony says they needed an expert in Gamma radiation, and so they turned to Lisa Cummings, a young genious who is fresh out of Harvard. Stark says his partner Jack Rutledge brought her in, saying that she could be low profile, posing as Tony's girlfriend. Tony says that's all the relationship they really had together: posing for the media cameras as Tony's latest fling. But Tony learned from her diary that she was truly falling in love with him, and then she unexpectedly commited suicide...Banner agrees to help Tony complete the Gamma-proof Iron Man suit. 

Page 15, panels 3-4, (of 5): FB-This shows Tony and Jack getting frustrated at the lab, so Jack approaches Lisa at Harvard about joining the team. 

As Banner and Stark talk, all the while, we see Richard Cummings, locked up in the wine cellar, listening in on the listening bug that he planted on Tony. He gets a meal from Tony's butler Jeeves. 

Pg. 18: This page is a montage of images, with no clear panel breakdown, that occurs over the course of a few days. Tony and Banner work together in the lab, trying to come up with a possible way to create a Gamma-proof Iron Man suit. 

Pg. 19: This page cuts to a new day, some days later, as Banner comes up with a solution. Tony is galvanized, thinking they're on to something... 

pg. 20-22: Cut to Richard Cummings, who is still being held in the wine cellar. Tonight, he is brought his meal by Nicole, instead of the stuffy butler Jeeves, (Richard says, "What happened to my usual jailer?" Nicole says its "Tony's idea. He thought you might need a change from old sour-puss Jeeves." This line is what makes me suspect that a few days have passed as Tony and Banner work in the lab). Richard fakes Nicole out into accidenly leave a steak knife behind from the meal, which Richard keeps hidden, awaiting his chance to escape... 

References: Besides those mentioned above? I should note that also in the flashback where Tony is approached by "Charlie Charm" to work for the President, Tony notes that the President has been on heightened alert for a dirty bomb "since Hussein's capture". That's a real world event he's referencing, but it'd be interesting to note where Hussien's capture falls in the Marvel universe...but it most likely can be passed over as topical. 

So where is Rumiko Fujikawa (from the pages of Iron Man) during Tony's flirting with Nicole, and during this media talk about Tony dating Lisa? I don't know...but Tony says that Lisa and him weren't truly an item...and Nicole and Tony don't seem to be too close, (though that talk of a hot tub party together might tick Rumiko off if she were to find out!) Or is this during a period where Tony and Rumiko were broken up? 

Also, I thought that Banner's suits were already radiation proof? But oh well... 

Hulk #73: 
"Big Things: Part 3: Shockwaves" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Art by Douggie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Jeeves, Nicole March, Richard Cummings, Jack Rutledge. 

Synopsis: pgs 1-14: Cut to a few days later from the end of last issue. We learn that Tony, Banner, and Jack Rutledge have been working on implimenting Bruce's idea for a gamma-proof suit for a few days now. The test a version of the suit in a gamma bomb explosion, and the suit's helmet is blown clean off. Luckily, no one was inside. The three of them are getting increasingly frustrated with their lack of progress. Tony inparticular seems out of control. He tells the other two to get the suit set up for another test, "this time underground", and he walks off. 

He goes down to the wine cellar and unties Richard Cummings, and tries to provoke Richard into a fight. He wants to take some of his frustration out on Richard. Richard is more than happy to oblige, when he pulls out the steak knife and slices Tony's arm with it. Meanwhile, as Richard is getting the upperhand, Banner is taking a lunch break with Nicole, when Nicole mentions about the time she served a steak dinner to Richard. This sends off a warning signal to Bruce, who races down to the wine cellar, just in time to prevent Richard from killing Tony. 

They chain Richard up again, and stich up the wound to Tony's arm. Banner says it's too risky for Tony to test the suit with an open wound, but Tony says he'll be fine in time for the real test, in a "few days". 

pg. 15-19: Cut to what could be the next day, or what could be a few days later. It's unclear. Banner and Jack are busy testing another bomb on their latest modified suit, and this time, it works! Banner goes and tells Tony, whom he finds in a boxing sparring match in a gym. Banner asks why isn't Tony resting, and Tony says that a workout is the best medicine after being injured. Banner points out that Tony has reopened his wound in his arm...he tells Tony to get ready, because they're going to test him in the gamma-proof suit tomorrow, (they have to test with someone in the suit, otherwise, the govt. won't accept the results as having been field tested). 

Meanwhile, Nicole goes down and checks on Richard again, and Richard manages to steal a kiss from her, while at the same time, stealing a hair pin from her hair as well. We can successfully call her the stupidest woman on the face of the earth at this point. 

pg. 20-22: Cut to the next day. Tony, Jack, and Bruce head out to the testing range, getting ready to test the suit with Tony inside it. At the same time, Richard uses the hair pin to succesfully free himself from the shackles. He knocks out a security guard who's come to feed him, and steals the guard's clothes, and heads off to the gamma test range... 

Hulk #74: 
"Big Things: Part 4" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Art by Douggie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Nicole March, Richard Cummings, Jack Rutledge. 

Synopsis: God, this issue hurts to read... 

pgs. 1-19: Okay, so picking up where we left off at the end of last issue, Tony, Bruce, and Jack test the suit, by exploding a bomb in an underground test chamber. The blast knocks Tony, (who's inside the suit) way backwards, and Jack wonders why the bomb is more powerful. Tony says that he wanted to really impress the military, so he increased the bomb dosage last night. Unfortunately, the bomb causes Tony to slam into a wall, which creates a crack in the armor, which damages the suit and allows Gamma radiation to flow in. The Gamma radiation unhinges Tony's mind, causing him to go on what I can only describe as a wild acid trip...he tunnels up to the surface, (releasing Gamma radiation on the surface) and goes flying around, taking on military jets, knocking them out of the sky. Banner realises that someone needs to knock some sense into Tony fast, so he changes into the Hulk and goes to fight Tony in the Iron Man armor. 

Meanwhile, Richard Cummings, (dressed as one of the mansion's security guards) goes and kidnaps Nicole, forcing her to drive him out of the mansion and to the testing range. He gets there just in time to see Tony ordering Jack to set off a second Gamma Bomb, this one above ground, so as to make the suit more powerful, (in Tony's demented mind, anyway). Jack says the bomb will kill Tony this time, since the suit is damaged. Richard, (who's holding Nicole at gun point) walks in and tells Jack to set off the 2nd gamma bomb, cause he want's Tony to die! 

Jack tries to talk Richard out of his agenda of killing Tony, saying that it's not Tony's fault that Lisa died, it's his! It turns out Lisa came to the conclusion that they were pushing ahead too hard with the project, and so she wanted to prove this to Tony, so she tested the initial Gamma-proof suit on herself, with herself inside the suit, to prove it doesn't work. Unfortunately, she died in the effort. Jack worked the controls for her. After Lisa died, she didn't appear damaged, (the suit absorbing most of the blast, though it still killed her), so Jack took her back to her appartment and made it look like she killed herself by overdosing on sleeping pills, (to try and throw any blame off of Tony)... 

Upon learning all this, Richard shoots Jack, blaming him just as much as Tony, and tries to set off the 2nd bomb, but somehow ends up electrocuting himself. The 2nd bomb goes off anyway, and the blast hits Tony, (who had just come to his senses, having heard the admission of guilt by Jack over the communication system in the Iron Man gear). 

pgs 20-22: Cut to later on that day. Banner is packing up and preparing to leave, while Tony thanks him. It turns out that Banner knew Tony had increased the dosage of the 1st gamma bomb, so as to help absorb the gamma radiation that was going into Tony's system, Banner changed the 2nd gamma bomb by turning it into a device which sucked up Gamma-radiation. Thus, it "cured" the deranged Tony, (strangely enough, it didn't suck the gamma radiation out of the Hulk though...) 

The 2nd bomb blast did unfortunately wreck the bunker where Jack, Richard, and Nicole where, injuring Nicole, but Jack and Richard died. Nicole reports to the police about Jack's confession about Lisa, (which takes any blame in the eyes of the media off of Tony). Nicole didn't say a word to the police about Banner staying at Tony's place. Banner and Stark shake hands, and the issue ends with Banner walking off into the sunset. 

References: 

pg. 16, panel 6, (out of 7 panels): FB-In this one brief panel flashback, we see Lisa in the Iron Man armor, having the gamma bomb be tested on her, and we see that it kills her, blowing the helmet clean off her head... 

pgs 20, panel 7, (out of 7 panels) to pg 21, panel 1, (out of 5 panels): FB- Here we see a quick flashback where Bruce happens to catch Tony changing the amount of explosive in the first bomb, and so Bruce changes the 2nd bomb to counter anything that might go wrong in the first bomb. We're told that this flashback happened, "last night". 

I'll make note that the Hulk we see here is the Hulk with Banner's brain in control, which is the dominant type we see in Bruce Jones's issues...every once in a while, Banner looses control though, and this leads to a silent, angry Hulk, (not classic "Stupid Hulk") which we saw in issue 72, in Tony's bedroom. Banner seems to loose control, and the Hulk starts tearing up Tony's mansion, until Nicole comes along and calms the Hulk down, reverting him to Banner. 

That's it for now. Look for Issues 75 and 76 to come soon.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 45

Posted: 26 Nov 2004 11:04 am    Post subject: CFA: X-Men Age of Apocalypse Ashcan
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Does anyone have this mini-comic? 

Presumably it follows the format of "clips from comics with a new framing sequence" -- I'm particularly interested if any of the clips are new, or if the framing sequence is in some way canon -- narrated by a character, etc. 

If anyone can give me a write-up of what's in here, I'd appreciate it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2004 08:07 pm    
By chaka

I have the AOA Ashcan, it seems to be written by an outside writer (i.e., it's speaking to the reader). The first page reads: 

Professor X is dead. 
And his struggle for peace between humans and mutants was nothing more than a dream. 
Every thing you think you know, you do not. 
Every story you think you've read, you have not. 
Every battle you think's been fought, has never been. 

the rest of the comic shows a black-and-white copy of the cover of the first issue of each of the X-Men comics of the time (X-Men vol. 2, Wolverine vol. 2, Cable vol. 2, X-Force vol. 1, X-Factor vol. 1, Excalibur vol. 1, and Generation X vol 1) with a caption about their history and upcoming AOA counterparts. for example, Wolverine's reads 

"Logan never joined the X-Men. Professor X never pulled him away from the Canada's Weapon X program. He never fell in love with Mariko Yashida. He never had his adamantium skeleton ripped from his body by the mutant named Magneto. And he never doubted the story of his origins. 
He remained...Weapon X." 

The last page is a black-and-white copy of the cover of X-Men: Alpha. 

So it is my opinion that the material in this ashcan is not canon. 

There was, however, another X-Men ashcan I received at the same time, that contains clips from previous X-Men comics with narration from Prof. Xavier, do you need a write-up of that one?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2004 08:12 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

If it's this one, then I'm all set. 

Thanks very much for the write-up! I appreciate it! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2004 08:19 pm    
By chaka

you're welcome, glad to be of help

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Posted: 26 Nov 2004 01:35 am    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk #75 and 76
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Here's my review for Hulk #75 and 76. This is the conclusion of Bruce Jones' run on the book, (except for the Hulk/Thing miniseries, but that's a topic for another day) and thus, it's the conclusion of the whole "Secret Conspiracy/Mr. Lips" storyline that has been in effect since Hulk #34. And when all is said and done: This final storyline sucked, and it makes me wish the last 3 years of the Hulk had never happened. 

Hulk #75: 
"Wake to Nightmare" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Drawn by Darick Robertson 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, the Leader, Nadia Blonsky, Tony Stark, Doc Samson, Betty Ross Banner 

Synopsis: PICKS UP SHORTLY AFTER THE EVENTS OF HULK #74. 

Bruce Banner wakes up in a Los Angeles hotel to find that all the power is off. He's not clear how he got there; the last thing he remembers was leaving Tony Stark's place, (as shown at the tail end of Hulk #74) and heading back into Los Angeles. But now, he steps outside of the hotel and finds Los Angeles is a wasteland! It appears a nuclear holocaust has come and destroyed all of humanity! Banner's not sure how this could've happened, so he travels around, till he finds another hotel where he hears noise. Travelling inside, he finds a television, and on it: Mr. Lips! Except Mr. Lips has a mustache now...hearing Mr. Lips talking behind him, Banner turns around to find he's staring at The Leader. Yes, it appears that the mysterious leader of the Secret Conspiracy was none other then Samuel Sterns, the Leader, who simply shaved his mustache for his broadcasts as "Mr. Lips"... 

Banner asks why the Leader's gone to all the trouble with all of the Secret Conspiracy plots, and why he wanted a sample of Hulk Blood. The Leader says he did all this to keep Banner disoriented, and always on the run, to weaken Banner's mental defences. But the Leader says that doesn't matter now. He tells Banner that they are in the near future, after a holocaust that wiped out humanity, except for some small remnants of humans, who have been reduced to Caveman/mutants...The Leader tells Banner that there's a time machine to the north in Northern Californa or Southern Oregon, and that if Banner, (as the Hulk) can get through all the caveman savages and make it to the Time Machine, he can go back and prevent the nuclear holocaust from happening! So the Hulk sets off on a rampage, heading due north, plowing through any savages that get in his way... 

And that's when we get back to reality. Betty Ross is watching the news: The Hulk is on a rampage in downtown Los Angeles, heading north. Doc Samson calls her, saying he's out at Tony Stark's mansion in Los Angeles. She heads out to Stark's place immediately, (where she's at is unclear). Samson says he'll call up Nadia as well. 

Cut to later that night. Everyone is out at Stark's place in Los Angeles. The Hulk disappeared shortly after leaving Los Angeles. They assume he's reverted to Banner, and is staying low. Nadia and Betty take a chopper, (it belongs to Tony apparently) and fly out after the Hulk. They have a new and improved Gamma tracker, which Stark and Samson whipped up overnight, to track down Banner. Stark and Samson monitor the situation from Stark's mansion. The two ladies manage to locate Banner in the woods of northern Californa. As they watch in the chopper above, some police appear, and Banner turns into the Hulk and smashes the police cars. Betty tries to calm Hulk down, but to no avail. Then they all figure out that the Hulk isn't acting like himself. They whip up a quick scientific thingy and are able to tell that the Hulk is sleepwalking, and figure out that the Leader is messing with the Hulk's subconsious brain. Just then, Betty blacks out. The Leader has detected Betty and Nadia's thought waves near the Hulk's, and seeks to kill the two women. He uses his mental powers to overwhelm Betty, and Nadia tries to fly the chopper, but she can feel the Leader starting to make her black out as well... 

The issue ends with the chopper apparently crashing... 

References: 

pg. 14: Samson says to Betty on the phone, "Looks like Stark was the last to see Bruce! Tony phoned me-thought we'd want to know." 

So it's a short time after last issue. 

Hulk #76: 
"Shattered" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, the Leader, Nadia Blonsky, Tony Stark, Doc Samson, Betty Ross Banner 

Synopsis: PICKS UP RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF AT THE END OF LAST ISSUE. 

The chopper did crash, but Nadia ejected Betty and herself just in time. And so, with parachutes they sailed to the forest ground below. Nadia quickly wakes up and she wakes up Betty. Sterns is no longer messing with their minds, and they conclude that Sterns thinks they're dead. They follow the Hulk, to see where he's going, and they don't have too far to go: the Hulk comes to a spot in the forest, and Sterns orders the Hulk to start tunneling down. 

Nadia pulls out some sort of handy computer device, and concludes they are over an abandoned missile silo. They find an old vent shaft to the silo and climb down it, eventually finding their way into a strange room down below ground. And in the center of the room is the Leader, (in his real form, not the classic version that Banner sees in his mind). The Leader is now nothing more than a giant brain, with a couple of eye stalks, and some lips, (ala Mr. Lips), all floating in a vat of chemicals...and just then, the Hulk bursts through into the chamber from above. He walks over to the Leader's machine, and the Leader instructs him to change some dials around on the control panel, (which he does). 

The Leader says he is indeed Mr. Lips, and he's been using the computer systems here to keep himself alive. His body died some time ago, and he needs a new body. He was able to send his thoughts anywhere, so he used his mental powers to manipulate people, and that's how he started up the Secret Conspiracy. He says he wanted some of the Hulk's blood, so as to grow a clone of the Hulk, to put his brain in, but the Hulk, Nadia, Doc Samson, and Betty have constantly thwarted him over the last few months. After the Secret Conspiracy's Home Base was destroyed, (at the end of Hulk #65) the Leader decided to switch tactics, and just get the Hulk to come to him personally. The set of dials that the Hulk just pulled have started some sort of process in the chamber that will in a few moments transfer the Leader's brain into the Hulk's body. 

Betty tries to snap the Hulk out of it, but the Hulk only obeys the Leader now...Stern says, "The only way to control Banner was to wear him down slowly...chase and dog him relentlessly until-weak and exhausted- his mental guard was down, his sullied mind vulnerable to suggestion. To catch him napping in other words." But Betty starts to get through to the Hulk, who pauses when ordered by Sterns to kill Betty and Nadia. 

But just then, into the room bursts Iron Man and Doc Samson! They tracked Nadia and Betty down, and are here to save the day, (just as Betty had the Hulk calmed down). Iron Man, Doc Samson, and the Hulk fight, while the Leader watches. Betty and Nadia get the idea to smash the computer system, and thus hopefully stop the mind transference. Nadia distracts the Leader by talking to him, and Betty rushes over to smash the computer, but just then Doc Samson knocks the Hulk, sending him flying backwards into the vat which houses the Leader. It shatters, and the Leader's brain crumples to the ground, (apparently dead). But one of the glass shards from the vat flies out and hits Nadia, who dies as it impales in her heart. Hulk sees this and gets angry at Samson for Nadia's demise. In a rage, he beats Samson to a bloody pulp, nearly murdering Samson, but Betty yells at the Hulk, getting Banner's attention inside. The Hulk reverts to Banner, and Betty, (in the grips of histeria) yells to Banner that Nadia's death and Samson's pummeling are all Hulk's fault, and everywhere Banner and the Hulk goes, they bring nothing but misery, and she calls him a "cruel, ugly, twisted, freak" and Banner runs away in shame. Left in the chamber is Stark, Betty, the unconsious Samson, Nadia's body, and the Leader's brain corpse...and Banner is out there somewhere, on his own, (we get the impression that even though the Secret Conspiracy has been defeated, Banner will still remain a recluse). 

References: 

Page 15: Nadia calls the Leader insane, and he agrees, and goes on to explain: "Wasting away in a gilded fishbowl-immobile, helpless, the flesh gradually dying while the mind remains ever alert-even more hideously aware of my fate...of the daily shrieking loneliness of it! I believe I've earned a little madness! But there was always a method to it!" 

Well, this somewhat matches the last appearance of the Leader, in Hulk #31, where we saw the Leader as a giant brain-like figure, saying he was dead, (as seen during Peter David's run on the Hulk) yet he couldn't transcend to the next "higher plane". This "ghost" version of the Leader attempted once more to transcend, but we were left with the impression he failed...but we were also left with the impression that that was the last we'd ever see of the Leader, (I thought his consiousness just faded into nothingness)...but much as I hate to admit it, this version of the Leader somewhat makes sense: If the Leader's consiousness failed to "transcend," or "go to heaven" or whatever, than I suppose he could once more materialize as this floating brain...and from there, with his mental powers, set things in motion to start up a plot to get some Hulk blood, to grow a Hulk clone, to put his mind in...but it doesn't feel right to me: to have the Leader turn out to be the villian behind the last 3 years of the Hulk... 

We're left with the impression at the end that the Leader is dead, but there's no telling... 

Moving on, I'll just point out that as this is the end of the whole "Secret Conspiracy" plot, then there is no more need for Doc Samson to wear the eyepatch he's been wearing since Hulk #44. The Secret Conspiracy put an eye camera in his eye, to follow his every move. But since there is no more Secret Conspiracy, he should be able to lose the eyepatch! Which can set him up for appearances in other comics, (like his appearance in the "Search for She-hulk" storyline for instance, and I hear he's going to show up in one of the next few issues of She-Hulk). 

Okay, that's it. The last issue of the Hulk/Thing miniseries is coming in another couple of weeks, and after that, I'll do a review for that miniseries. In the meantime, I think I'll work on Punisher #8-12, and then onwards to reviewing Amazing Fantasy #1-6!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2004 10:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Kevin, for the analysis. Finally, an end to that Secret Conspiracy storyline...and, as you note, an opportunity now for Banner and Samson to appear in that "Search for She-Hulk" story arc in A3 72-75. I'll be curious to see how Hulk/Thing falls into place.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 47

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 11:46 am    Post subject: More typos
By jimmyppi

These names are not in bold: 

Acheron, Gabe 
Acheron, Stewart 
Director 
Genesis II 
Khonshu 
Morin, Elvis 
Red Lucy Keough 
Valeria II 


Typos: 
(in most of them it is trivial to see what they mean anyway, but for the search to work properly the codes need to be consistent) 

In Supreme Intelligence: 
A 97~A 99-FB-BTS should be A 97 ~ A 99-FB-BTS 

In Nightcrawler: 
PM&IF57 should be PM&IF 57 

In Lilandra Neramani: 
UXA @7 should be UX@ 7 

In Eel, Porcupine, Power Man and Swordsman: 
AF SPECIAL 1 should be AF SPECIAL 

In Doctor Strange: 
MIDNIGHT SONS UNLIMITED 4 should be MSU 4 

In Mam'selle Hepzibah: 
UX 2'75 should be UX 275 

In Zantor II: 
H' 98 should be H '98 

In BRANDENBERG, SANDI: 
AGENTX  1 (two blanks) should be AGENTX 1 

In MARVEL GIRL/JEAN GREY SUMMERS: 
ASM@1 should be ASM@ 1 

In IRON MAN/TONY STARK: 
AWC @ 7 should be AWC@ 7 

In IRON MAN/TONY STARK: 
AWC @7/4 should be AWC@ 7/4 

In ATTUMA: 
BIZ ADV 27-FB should be BIZADV 27-FB 

In DRACULA/VLAD TEPES: 
BLADE 1 should be BLADE 

In BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA: 
DD @10/2 should be DD@ 10/2 

In GHOST RIDER III/DAN KETCH: 
GR: C should be GR:C 

In INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS: 
GZIL 20-21 should be GZILL 20-21 

In INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS and HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM: 
GZIL 22-24 should be GZILL 22-24 

In HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER and SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS: 
H' 00 should be H '00 

In CARR, "SNAPPER": 
H2-374-BTS should be H2 374-BTS 

In ATALANTA, CASSIOPEIA, DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON, ELAMRON, GLADIATOR II/PRAETOR KALLARK, HECTOR II, JASON II, JONES, JANIS, RACLE/LADY SIBYL and PROMETHEUS II: 
H@ '97 should be H '97 

In CHAMBER/JONOTHON STARSMORE | JUBILEE/JUBILATION LEE | LEECH | M | MADDICKS, ARTHUR 'ARTIE' | RICHARDS, FRANKLIN BENJAMIN | ST. CROIX, CLAUDETTE and ST. CROIX, NICOLE: 
H@ '97/2 should be H '97/2 

In HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER: 
H@ '97-FB should be H '97-FB 

In IRON MAN/TONY STARK: 
IM @ 11/3 should be IM@ 11/3 

In GALACTUS/GALAN: 
WM2 ~ IW should be WM2 14 ~ IW 4 (I think) 

In BISHOP/LUCAS BISHOP: 
M/HOL 94 should be M/HOL 1994 

In COLLINS, MILLIE: 
M/VS should be M/VS 1 

In WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT: 
MAV 4 should be ?, MAV2 4 maybe? 

In HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND: 
MENS ADVENTURE 27-28 should be MEN'S ADVENTURE 27-28 

In SHANG-CHI: 
MOFK 21 should be MOKF 21 

In HRIMHARI: 
NMSE should be NMSE 1 

In GATEWAY: 
PUN 33-BTS should be PUN2 33-BTS 

In SETH II [EGYPTIAN GOD]: 
PUN2@ 2/4 should be PUN@ 2/4 

In JAMESON, J. JONAH: 
SGT. FURY 110 should be SGTF 110 

In THOMAS, ROY: 
SGT. FURY@ 6 should be SGTF@ 6 

In PARKER, BEN | PARKER, MAY REILLY and PROTO-GOBLIN/VAN ADDER, NELS: 
SM -1 should be S-M -1 

In SHRIEK/SANDRA DEEL/FRANCES LOUISE BARRISON: 
SM 35-37 should be S-M 35-37 

In SCARLET SPIDER/BEN REILLY and SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER: 
SM: REVELATIONS should be SM:REVELATIONS 

In GAUNT/MENDEL STROMM and SCARLET SPIDER/BEN REILLY: 
SM: REVELATIONS-FB should be SM:REVELATIONS-FB 

In SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD: 
SS3 '97 should be SS '97 

In GALACTUS/GALAN and NOVA II/FRANKIE RAYE and SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD: 
SS: JUDGMENT DAY should be SS:JUDGMENT DAY 
or the opposite 
In MEPHISTO: 
SS:JUDGMENT DAY should be SS: JUDGMENT DAY 

In KLINE, MR.: 
SUB-42-BTS should be SUB-M 42-BTS 

In HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND: 
SUB-MARINER 33-35 should be SUB-MARINER COMICS 33-35 ? 

In MAXIMOFF, DJANGO: 
SW 12-FB should be ? 

In HERCULES [GREEK GOD]: 
T@15 should be T@ 15 

In WO, GENERAL: 
TOS  61 (two blanks) should be TOS 61 

In HOSEK, BULL | SUKHAROV, VIKTORIA | VOLK/ILYA DUBROMOVITCH SKORZORSKI and WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT: 
W2 '97 should be W '97 

In SUKHAROV, DIMITRI | SUKHAROV, VIKTORIA | VOLK/ILYA DUBROMOVITCH SKORZORSKI and WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT: 
W2 '97-FB should be W '97-FB 

In DEADPOOL/JACK/'WADE WILSON' and WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT: 
W2 '99 should be W '99 

In BLACK KNIGHT V/DANE WHITMAN: 
WCA@1 should be WCA@ 1 

In NEZARR, ONEG and ZIRAN: 
WI 23/2 should be WI? 23/2 

In SPAULDING, PETER: 
X51  6 (two blanks) should be X51 6 

In PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER: 
X@ 8 should be UX@ 8 

In LOCKHEED: 
XCAL @ 2/3 should be XCAL@ 2/3 

In MACTAGGERT, MOIRA KINROSS: 
XCAL SE should be XCALSE 

In MOJO | NIGHTCRAWLER/KURT WAGNER and ROMA: 
XCALSE 1 should be XCALSE

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 05:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jimmyppi wrote: 
>>>
In MAXIMOFF, DJANGO: 
SW 12-FB should be ? 
<<<

S-W 12 


watching: nypd blue

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Thread 48

Posted: 02 Aug 2004 06:11 pm    Post subject: Speedball
By rhod

The MCP currently has: 

..... 
{SB 1/2} 
SB 1 
..... 
ie Speedball's first appearance was in his own back-up story. Surely this only works for people who read their comics backwards?

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Aug 2004 06:23 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Without the issue at hand, I'd suspect the logic runs something like this: 

Story #2 was set chronologically before story #1 -- and since they were both published at exactly the same time, story #2 is technically the "chronologically-earliest first-published appearance". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Aug 2004 06:25 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Not sure what you're saying here. 

Are you contending that the first story in Speedball 1 occurs before the second story? 

Or are you questioning why the brackets are around the second story? The brackets tell us the first published appearance, when it's not the same as the first chronological appearance. The second story was published at the same time as the first story. So the brackets fall around the first chronological story in that book. The order that people read stories is irrelevant to the brackets, and in fact, if they're trying to read the stories chronologically, then, I guess, "Yeah, they should read the comic backwards." 


watching: time after time

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Posted: 03 Aug 2004 12:32 pm    
By rhod

Sorry, my bad - I was treating the brackets as an indicator of when readers would first have seen a character. 
The brackets are there to indicate first published appearance, so i surmised that out of these 2 appearances, the 'first' would be the one that occurs 16 or so pages before the other. 
Are there any other characters for whom this situation occurs?

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2004 01:14 pm    
By lkseitz

Do you mean second stories being the first appearance or first published appearances being indicated before the main story in which they first appeared? 

For an example of the latter, Rom's "first published appearance" is the flashback in the middle of ROM 1. That flashback has several other flashbacks and back-up stories that occur chronologically between it and the main story of ROM 1. I imagine there are many characters, particularly super-villains, whose first published appearances are actually a flashback to their origin in their debut issue.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 49

Posted: 16 Nov 2004 09:46 am    Post subject: Missing Ranks and Titles
By lkseitz

The following entries need to be changed to correctly represent their titles (and other info, in some cases). 

ANELLE -> PRINCESS ANELLE [SKRULL] 
DORREK [SKRULL] -> EMPEROR DORREK II [SKRULL] 
DORREK II -> EMPEROR DORREK [SKRULL] 
TALBOT, GLENN -> TALBOT, COL. GLENN 

Don Campbell states "EMPRESS R'KILL" should actually be "EMPRESS R'KLLL."
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 16 Nov 2004 11:02 am    Post subject: Missing "see" links
By lkseitz

The following characters have references to "see X" (where X is another name), but X is not linked to the appropriate entry. 

BIRD BOY 
BLACK TIGER 
BOWMAN 
DOMINO III 
ISHTAR 
LIGHTSPEED 
REDEEMER II 
REJECT 
SILVER DRAGON 
SNAKESKIN 
SPEEDBALL DOPPELGANGER II 
STARWOLF 
TAMARA 

For DESTROYER VII and DYNA-MITE the "See X" text at the end of their entries is not bold. 

For WARHAWK it says "See ARES." I believe ARES should not be in all caps.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 12 Nov 2004 01:52 pm    Post subject: Missing Races
By lkseitz

The following characters are missing their race: 

ASTRONOMER [ELDER] 
DOCTOR DREDD [DIRE WRAITH] 
FRIGGA [ASGARDIAN] 
HARGEN [CELESTIAL] 
JEMIAH [CELESTIAL] 
NEZARR [CELESTIAL] 
ONEG [CELESTIAL] 
RUNNER [ELDER] 
SERSI [ETERNAL] 
SIF [ASGARDIAN] 
TEFRAL [CELESTIAL] 
THENA [ETERNAL] 
TRADER [ELDER] 
TRITON [INHUMAN] 
VOLSTAGG [ASGARDIAN] 
VOLX [DIRE WRAITH] 
ZEUS [GREEK GOD] 
ZIRAN [CELESTIAL] 
ZURAS [ETERNAL] 

And the "[ETERNAL]" after Makkari is not in bold.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

Last edited by lkseitz on 12 Nov 2004 02:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 12 Nov 2004 01:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
And the "[ETERNAL]" after Makkari is not in bold. 
<<<

It shouldn't be bold. If you find any that are bold, that's a mistake. 


watching: both sides

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2004 02:32 pm    
By lkseitz

Oops.  In that case, IKARIS has his race in bold and should not. 

And PIXIE has a slash (/) after his/her name without a real name. 

Should the Super Skrull entry read "SUPER SKRULL/KL'RT [SKRULL]"? It currently doesn't list a race. Or is it considered self-explanatory? Ditto "WOLVERINE SKRULL."
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 12 Nov 2004 04:05 pm    
By lkseitz

*Smack* And how could I forget these?!? 

BREAKER/RAAK [GALADORIAN] 
FIREFALL/KARAS [GALADORIAN] 
FIREFALL IV/TARN [GALADORIAN] 
GLORIOLE [GALADORIAN] 
HAMMERHAND [GALADORIAN] 
HAMMERHAND III/BRON [GALADORIAN] 
JAVELIN/DARIN [GALADORIAN] 
JAVELIN II/DARIN 'JR.' [GALADORIAN] 
LIGHTNINGBOLT II/RAND [GALADORIAN] 
PULSAR I/PLOR [GALADORIAN] 
PULSAR II/LAN [GALADORIAN] 
RAINBOW [GALADORIAN] 
ROM [GALADORIAN] 
ROM CLONE [GALADORIAN] 
SCANNER I/SKERA [GALADORIAN] 
SCANNER III/RHANLA [GALADORIAN] 
SEEKER/TARM [GALADORIAN] 
SENTRY IV/VAL [GALADORIAN] 
STARSHINE I/LANDRA [GALADORIAN] 
STARSHINE III/ANARRA [GALADORIAN] 
TERMINATOR [GALADORIAN] 
TRAPPER/VOLA [GALADORIAN] 
UNSEEN/UNAM [GALADORIAN] 

How do we list half-breeds like Rom and Brandy's children (Terminator II and Liberator) from the SPACEKNIGHTS limited series? They're half-Galadorian, half-Terran. 

BTW, earlier I edited the message above and added a few more to the list. They were the Asgardians, Sersi, and Zeus.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 17 Nov 2004 09:39 am    
By lkseitz

One more. (Will it never end?!?) 

BEL-DANN, GEN. [KREE]
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 52

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 02:04 am    Post subject: Bold page
By JLH

The M page, starting at about "Moonhunter/Zack Moonhunter", is all bolded. Dare I say, it's got an EXTRA BOLD flavor?

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Thread 53

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 05:09 am    Post subject: Alpha the ultimate mutant
By Random

Hi, 

Thanks for this site, it's a real hlp to keep track of everyone's destiny. However, I think I've found a little mistake: I've just finished reading Defenders 15 and 16, starring Alpha, the Ultimate Mutant, and as I've come to the site to see if it appeared in othr titles, I've discovered Alpha's appearances are said to be 

FF 15 
FF 16 

instead of 

DEF 15 
DEF 16 

Thought it would help. Thanks again!

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Thread 54

Posted: 01 Nov 2004 04:55 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: November 1
By ADMINISTRATOR

Diamond is shipping these Marvels this week: 

ALPHA FLIGHT 9 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 6* 
AVENGERS 503* 
AVENGERS EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES 1* 
CAPTAIN AMERICA & FALCON 9* 
EXILES 54 
GUARDIANS 5 
HULK AND THING HARD KNOCKS 3 
JUBILEE 3 
MARVEL AGE FANTASTIC FOUR 8 
MARVEL AGE SPIDER-MAN 15 
SABRETOOTH 3 
SPIDER-GIRL 80 
SPIDER-MAN DR OCTOPUS YEAR ONE 4 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED 6* 
PUNISHER 13 
TOMB OF DRACULA 2 
ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR 12 
ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN 68 
UNCANNY X-MEN 452* 
VENOM VS CARNAGE 4 

I've starred the ones I'll be picking up. Analyses of any unstarred ones would be appreciated, totally aside from what Paul B is asking for, for the calendar. 


watching: first monday

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 07:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Russ, it looks like you and I get the same comics. I'm planning on picking up the ones you have asterisked, plus Alpha Flight, about which I can provide info. 

We have folks who will contribute story arc analyses of most of the other canonical (non-Marvel Age, non-Ultimate, etc.) titles once the current story arcs are done ot TPBs come out. Kevin's got Hard Knocks and Punisher, Jeph's got Jubilee and Sabretooth. Did you need something sooner? 

BTW, still no takers on Tomb of Dracula or Venom vs. Carnage.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 08:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

No, I don't need anything quickly. Just letting everyone know up front which ones I'll be doing my own analysis of, and which ones I'll eventually need help with. 


watching: larry king

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Thread 55

Posted: 31 Oct 2004 08:22 pm    Post subject: Days of Future Past Question
By Enda80

Days of Future Past Question; in FF#376, Thunderstrike shown getting killed by Sentinels?

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Posted: 31 Oct 2004 09:54 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

No. There's a bit that shows Wolverine, Colossus, "Kate" Pryde, Rachel Summers and Franklin Richards. Franklin gets fried by a Sentinel and then we see Rachel at a cemetary with headstones for various FFers. 

No Thunderstrike to be found.

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Posted: 04 Nov 2004 03:49 am    
By Enda80

We do see Eric Masterson's tombstone, though.

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Thread 56

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 06:07 pm    Post subject: SHIELD Agent question
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/ashcanaw.htm 
I remember that the SHIELD agent who was in that Aschan storyline later attempted to capture Spid for Silver Sable in a not too much later issue, but I don't recall if his name was given anywhere.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 03:14 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

He is called Freddy Helms in Spec. S-M #118, and the other issue is #128
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Thread 57

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 11:38 am    Post subject: the mcp search
By jimmyppi

I have made some changes in the search: 

Links in the figures names are now preserved. 

Links in the chronological lists (see figure, from figure etc) are now directed to proper file in www.chronologyproject.com. (they were dead links before) 

I also made listings of all figures and all comics in the database: 
www.chronologygraph.com/zzzzzzzz.htm 
www.chronologygraph.com/yyyyyyyy.htm 
Maybe I should have asked before I presented them on the web. Are they okay with you?

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Posted: 04 Nov 2004 04:28 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

No, Jimmy, please take those down. I'm especially concerned with the all figures list, which takes the visitor to a chronological list that duplicates our work. 

Thanks, and thanks for all the work you're doing for our search engine, but please remove the lists as soon as possible. 


watching: catherine cryer

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 05:05 am    
By jimmyppi

Ok, they are gone. 

Are there a mysql database on your server? Then you could host the search here on chronologyproject.com. I could send you the sql commands that build the database as text files, and also the php files. 
I wont be able to update as often as once a week though...

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Posted: 05 Nov 2004 08:41 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You're doing an excellent job. Update when you can; no complaints from me. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 07 Nov 2004 01:31 am    
By jimmyppi

Thank you!

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Thread 58

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 09:20 pm    Post subject: The "Gwen Stacy" topic...
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I've been reading over the current Gwen Stacy topic in the Marvel Universe thread, and it seems to me that an awful lot of people, (myself included) are feeling the need to express their opinions on the story itself, beyond the topic of continuity. It is a major topic of discussion throughout comic book communities both online, and at everyone's local comic shop! Since I don't think anyone wants the continuity aspects of the story to be strayed too far off topic, I thought I'd start up this, so people could either praise the story, or vent their anger, or just comment on it in general. After all, it's clearly the most shocking event to hit the Spiderman titles in years! 

So, what does everyone think of Amazing Spiderman #512?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 02:17 am    
By PopularLoser

Not being a big Spidey fan (Daredevil and Punisher are more up my alley), I haven't read the story in question, and I won't go out of my way to read it purely for the controversy. But for my curiosity's sake, I'm asking: What exactly are the details on this controversy? Is it just the fact that Gwen had sex with someone other than Peter or is it more complicated than that? To me, the idea of Gwen becoming pregnant and Spidey meeting the kids years later sounds like an interesting idea. But that's all I know. If there's much more to it, I'd like to be filled in before making any more comments. 

Although no matter what I know or don't know, I have to wonder why they've brought a story like this up now with Gwen having been dead for over 20 years realtime.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:16 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

For me, it's the fact that Gwen had sex at all. Her character was "pure" in a sense, and very angelic. She was honesty and optimism and sunshine and light and every other analogy that's ever been made in a sappy love song. 

While the idea of her siring twins before her death, unknown to Peter, is interesting by itself, it's kind of like bringing Bucky back from the dead. It defaces her character and what she represented to Peter and, by extension, all of the readers.

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 01:25 pm    
By John Simons

I'm sure Marvel wouldn't care how I feel about these developments, since I gave up on the Spider-books back when they brought Osborn and Aunt May back from the dead in the first place. I have flipped through some of these "Sins Past" books and have a general idea what's going on from online discussion. 

I also have always assumed that Peter and Gwen never slept together before she died. That's not to say that Gwen might not've been with someone else before they ever met (they were already out of high school by the time they met, after all), but I agree with Sean that their relationship had a sort of purity that made it seem to me like they were waiting. 

What bothers me is that she would sleep with such a slimy sleazy scumbag as Norman Osborn (and yes, even if you ignore the fact that he's the Green Goblin he always seemed like a vile prick even in his civvies) at the same time as she was seeing Peter. It just grosses me out. 

I've seen shock and dismay from some posters online because they feel Gwen is being labeled a slut or a whore because she had consensual sex. To me, that's not the issue. I don't think a woman who has premarital sex is a slut. In fact, as a heterosexual male I'm all for women who like sex! But the issue is, did she sleep with her boyfriend's roommate's father; that may be a wee bit slutty. 

JMS has gotten on his high horse and decried posters who have stated a preference, if he had to go through with this storyline, that Norman forced Gwen rather than have the act be consensual. Yes, that's right Joe we are all pro-rape and wish Gwen got what's coming to her!  

Let's be serious. I'm sure if you asked anybody if they thought JMS should concoct any storyline in which Norman ever penetrated, let alone impregnated, Gwen Stacy, I bet 99% of the so-called "pro-rape" contingent would've said, "Good God, no, that sounds like a horrible idea!" The thing is if Straczynski had written this story as if Gwen had been forced, it would be easier to sympathize with her plight and see her as a victim. 

It's not that I want Gwen to be any more of a victim than the circumstances of her death already made her-- I just wish Straczynski had never gone there in the first place. 

And on a lesser note, I'm tired of having kids accelerated to adulthood. I realize it's a result of a never-expanding ten-year timeline, but it's overdone and tiresome.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 04:18 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Doesn't anyone wonder why Normie Osborn hasn't shown any signs of accelerated aging? Why hasn't Peter brought up the subject? 


watching: 3340 news

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 06:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
And on a lesser note, I'm tired of having kids accelerated to adulthood. I realize it's a result of a never-expanding ten-year timeline, but it's overdone and tiresome. 
<<<

Then you must love Franklin Richards, John! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 06:25 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Doesn't anyone wonder why Normie Osborn hasn't shown any signs of accelerated aging? Why hasn't Peter brought up the subject? 
<<<

Clearly Gwen was a latent mutant. 

That, or Normie has some of Franklin Richards' age-proofing powers. 

-Sean

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:45 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
What bothers me is that she would sleep with such a slimy sleazy scumbag as Norman Osborn (and yes, even if you ignore the fact that he's the Green Goblin he always seemed like a vile prick even in his civvies) at the same time as she was seeing Peter. It just grosses me out.  
<<<

Well, let's be fair: Peter and Gwen's relationship was far from perfect. While it's true that they really loved each other, they tragicness of their lives, (PRIOR to her death) took a toll. They went through multiple break ups, and I for one like to think of her sleeping with Norman as happening during a period when Peter and Gwen were not a couple. 

I for one have loved JMS's run on ASM since he came on, (with only a few issues being somewhat "blah" storywise) but he really knows how to tell a powerful narrative. The Aunt May confrontation proves that much. And yeah, this story arc, (so far) has touched a powerful chord with me. Just like many others, I too found Gwen to be the epitomy of all that is pure and good in the world. And I found myself empathizing with Peter in this issue: his reaction would surely be my reaction. 

So yeah, on one hand, I'm ticked about this revelation about Gwen's character. But on the other hand, I'm thrilled by this engaging story.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:50 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

John Simon's makes mention of JMS's postings online. Here's a quote that Mr. Stracynski has posted online, on the controversy: 

"One doesn't prove the other. As I've always said...whether someone likes or 
doesn't like my work, that's as it should be. I don't argue the validity of 
opinions. Matters of fact, sure, but not taste. Some people like white 
chocolate. Some people, like me, know it's an offense in the eyes of god. 

There are some who don't like the Gwen aspect of this story, and some who think 
it's deepened the character in a positive way. Why would I want to weigh in on 
that? Arguing is good. For the first time in a very long time, people are 
getting passionate enough about the title to have arguments on this scale, and 
that's good. 

If I stay out of the way, it's to allow the dialogue to continue unimpeded, 
whether the book is being praised or raked over the coals. As a long time fan, 
I remember almost the identical reactions when it was decided to kill Gwen off, 
so I knew I'd be walking into a firestorm here. 

To write is to take chances. Sometimes you succeed, sometimes you don't, 
because the measure of success is in the eyes of the reader. And a subjective 
opinion is always right for that reader, always true for that person. 

So yeah, I've kept low to watch the arguing and see where the bodies land. 

The only thing I will mention, the only thing that did surprise me, was the 
degree to which some folks have turned on *Gwen*. I've heard of the 
madonna/whore dynamic, but I've never actually seen it played out this 
strenously. 

I can't even begin to count the number of posts I've seen from folks who are 
calling Gwen a slut, a whore, and a tramp...that this destroys her as a 
person...that it would be better if she had been raped than having had 
consensual sex. 

Better to be *raped*? Having sex with someone makes that person a *whore*? 

I'll admit it, *that* flummoxed me. Because I've known plenty of women who, 
young and naive and foolish, found themselves caught up with an older guy, even 
if only for a moment, because they are drawn in by them...especially if that 
someone is as powerful and manipulative an older figure as Norman Osborn. 

Maybe because I've known so many of them, all of whom are fine people, I've 
never once thought of them in those admittedly ugly terms. We all make 
mistakes in our lives. You who are without sin, throw the first stone, right? 

Gwen made a mistake. But she took responsibility for it, had the kids when 
there were other options (I don't want this to turn into a debate on those 
options, I'm just saying), and was prepared to go toe-to-toe with Norman, who 
on some level she had to be afraid of, and to raise those children, even if it 
meant screwing up her career, and marrying Peter. 

Now, to *me*, that is a person of immense personal strength and integrity. It 
gives her a spine and a conscience and a will that we really haven't seen in 
her before. 

To me, Gwen is a person...and like all people, she has good and bad, makes 
mistakes and adjusts for them. Always tries to do the right thing. And when 
cornered, she'll fight, not just for herself, but for other people. 

To other people, this seems to make her a slut. 

This aspect of it isn't a writing thing, isn't a storytelling thing, it's a 
matter of how one views people who have sex in this world. 

And you'll note that at no time does Peter ever say or think these things about 
her. Because Peter understands. Peter loves her even though she made a 
mistake. 

Given the ferocity with which some have turned on a dime and attacked Gwen -- 
calling someone they say they respected a whore and turning their backs on her 
character, damning her as a slut and a tramp -- it seems that I may write the 
comics, but a few other people have the issues.... 

But that's just my opinion."
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:51 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

And finally, here's an interview JMS has given online over the controversy: 

http://www.fanboyplanet.com/interviews/mc-jms1.php
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 07:57 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Besides being a great continuity analysis of the whole Gwen/Norman timeframe, this article also provides some wonderful analysis of Gwen and Norman's characters. The writer advocates that the "Sins Past" story arc is perfectly reasonable in terms of the character's personalities. Check it out: 


http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/GreenwithEvil/DeFloweringGwen.html 

Warning! It's a long read! But well worth it...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 06 Nov 2004 10:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Indeed it is well worth it. I found his argument to be a compelling and convincing one. And guess what? It works from the standpoint of the length of the pregnancy. He states that the conception occurred sometime between ASM 61 and 65 and that the birth "seven months" later occurred sometime between ASM 93 and 98. 

Going by general guidelines provided by the Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man: 
ASM 61 occurs in May of Peter Parker's freshman year of college; 
ASM 62 occurs in "the summer vacation between his freshman and sophomore years;" 
ASM 93 occurs in December of Peter's sophomore year; and 
ASM 95 occurs just after the Christmas of Peter's sophomore year 

If we place the conception of Gwen's kids just after ASM 61 and the birth between ASM 93 and 95, that's seven months. 

In this scenario, Gwen would have to have gone to Paris to have the kids during her stay in London. 

And BTW, my calculations place that December birth 17 years ago, Marvel Time. Who needs bleepin' age acceleration? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Nov 2004 01:57 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Indeed it is well worth it. I found his argument to be a compelling and convincing one. 
<<<

Well, I haven't read it, in its entirety, but I have read it up to the point where he trots out the well-worn argument that women have had babies before, without anyone knowing they were pregnant. 

Does he mention any cases were women were pregnant with *twins*, without anyone of any intelligence noticing it? And it sure seems like most of these expectant mothers in question were, well, to put it kindly, stocky, to begin with. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Going by general guidelines provided by the Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man: 
ASM 61 occurs in May of Peter Parker's freshman year of college; 
ASM 62 occurs in "the summer vacation between his freshman and sophomore years;" 
ASM 93 occurs in December of Peter's sophomore year; and 
ASM 95 occurs just after the Christmas of Peter's sophomore year 

If we place the conception of Gwen's kids just after ASM 61 and the birth between ASM 93 and 95, that's seven months. 

In this scenario, Gwen would have to have gone to Paris to have the kids during her stay in London. 
<<<

He's saying that when she left for London, she was at full term, with twins, and no one noticed it. And you find that compelling, and convincing? 

Again, I haven't read the entirety of the article, but does he explain the flashbacks? Does he explain Gwen's letter that mentions Peter's trip to Canada? In the prolog, at least, he seems to be saying he *can't* explain them. 


watching: saturday night live

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Posted: 07 Nov 2004 01:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
He's saying that when she left for London, she was at full term, with twins, and no one noticed it. And you find that compelling, and convincing? 

Again, I haven't read the entirety of the article, but does he explain the flashbacks? Does he explain Gwen's letter that mentions Peter's trip to Canada? In the prolog, at least, he seems to be saying he *can't* explain them.  


Russ, please read the entire article and note three things: 
1) As much as some of us loathe this retcon, we have to accommodate "Sins" as a canonical part of the Marvel saga. We can hold out for it being a dream or some elaborate hoax involving M.J.'s brainwashing or whatever, but I don't think that's going to happen, especially with a sequel story arc coming up. It's there, and we have to deal with it. 
2) Placement is a pain in the patootie. It just isn't going to work very smoothly. The author of the article states as much. BUT, he's put forth a yeoman effort at placement in a way that can make sense given the larger contexts of plot and character development. Yeah, Gwen not showing? Major problem. But I don't think there's a good spot for her to show and not have it noticed by everyone. The original stories just weren't written to accommodate this retcon. Maybe the strange genetic situation meant the kids were abnormally small but fully developed at seven months? It's up to us to explain some of this. 
3) The author claims that his placement, even with the inevitable flaws, can be made to work. Is it the best placement? I'll leave it to other Spidey experts (as I don't have the early Spidey run myself) to show me that there's a better one. But you have to hand it to the author; it seems to me that he's done a lot of homework, and I respect that.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 59

Posted: 08 Nov 2004 06:04 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: November 8
By ADMINISTRATOR

Diamond is shipping out these books. As always, if it's starred, I'm getting it. Analyses are particularly needed for the ones that aren't starred, and of course, don't let the fact that I'm getting a book *stop* you from analyzing it. Everyone else might appreciate it. 

*AVENGERS FINALE #1 
BULLSEYE GREATEST HITS #3 (Of 5) 
DISTRICT X #7 
*EMMA FROST #17 
*IRON MAN #1 
MARVEL AGE HULK #3 
MARVEL ENCYCLOPEDIA VOL 6 FANTASTIC FOUR HC 
*MARVEL KNIGHTS 4 #12 
*MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #8 
*MARVEL TEAM-UP #1 
*NEW THUNDERBOLTS #1 
NIGHTCRAWLER #2 
OFFICIAL HANDBOOK MARVEL UNIVERSE BOOK OF THE DEAD 2004 
*SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #21 
*THOR SON OF ASGARD #10 
WARLOCK #3 
X-MEN THE END BOOK ONE DREAMERS AND DEMONS #5 (Of 6) 


watching: cops

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Thread 60

Posted: 14 Jul 2004 08:00 pm    Post subject: To Dhall
By rhod

Would it be possible for you to re-post your x-men reading order? I'm having difficulty geting to the old message board to access it. (I've been re-reading the entire x-men collection, filling gaps as I go, and found your guide helpful in ordering miniseries and such, but I'm now up to 1992 and there are so many x-titles I'm losing track of what's happening where....) 
Cheers

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Posted: 14 Jul 2004 09:05 pm    
By Dhall

Haven't you figured out, that is why there are so many x-titles..... 

Warning, this list is really just a chronological list of my collection, so there are a few things marked no x-characters. 

Secondly, this list doesn't yet include Marvel UK 

Thirdly, there are a few recent appearances that I have, but haven't added to the list yet. 

Still this gives you a lot of data to look through. 

Dave H 


X-Men Reading List 

RISE OF APOCALYPSE 1-2 
RISE OF APOCALYPSE 3 
FANTASTIC FOUR 19 (TIME TRAVEL) (TAKES PLACE DURING RISE OF APOCALYPSE 3 AND 4) 
RISE OF APOCALYPSE 4 
ORIGIN 1-6 
LOGAN: PATH OF THE WARLORD 
MAGNETO #0 (Reprints of CLASSIC X-MEN 19 and 12 (2nd stories)) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 19 (2ND STORY) (MAGNETO + ISABELLA) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 428 (MYSTIQUE) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 15 (2ND) (CORSAIR JOINS THE STARJAMMERS) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 16 (2ND STORY) (BANSHEES ORIGIN) 
X-MEN MINUS ONE FLASHBACK 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 4 

UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN -1 (LOGAN) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 72-84 (WEAPON X) 
ALPHA FLIGHT MINUS ONE FLASHBACK (Mac, Heather, Puck, Logan)(Mac marries Heather) 

WOLVERINE MINUS ONE FLASHBACK 
CABLE MINUS ONE FLASHBACK (RAHNE, MOIRA) 
WOLVERINE/CABLE: GUTS AND GLORY 
BEFORE THE FANTASTIC FOUR: BEN GRIMM AND LOGAN 1-3 
LOGAN: SHADOW SOCIETY 
ALPHA FLIGHT SPECIAL 1992 (Logan, Mac, Sasquatch, Shaman, Snowbird, Smart Alec) 
UNCANNY ORIGINS 3 (ANGEL) 
UNCANNY ORIGINS 6 (BEAST) 

CLASSIC X-MEN 41-42 (2ND STORIES) (SCOTT AT SINISTERS ORPHANAGE) 
X-FACTOR MINUS ONE (ALEX, SINISTER) 
UNCANNY X-MEN MINUS ONE (TRASK FAMILY, RACHEL, SANCTITY) 
THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF CAPTAIN MARVEL 1-3 (DEATHBIRD, BROOD, IMPERIAL GUARD, CAPTAIN MARVEL) 


UNCANNY X-MEN 38-42 (2ND STORIES) 
AMAZING FANTASY #17 
UNCANNY X-MEN 44-46 (2ND STORIES) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 54-56 (2ND STORIES) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 49-52 (2ND STORIES) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 1 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 2 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 2 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 49 
AVENGERS 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 3 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 3 
THOR CORPS 3 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 4 (ALL NEW STORY FEATURING QUICKSILVER AND THE SCARLET WITCH) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 4 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 5 
UNCANNY X-MEN 5 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 6 
STRANGE TALES 120 
MARVELS 2 
FANTASTIC FOUR 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 6 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 7 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 1 
THOR 109 
UNCANNY X-MEN 7 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 8 
UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN 21 
STRANGE TALES 128 (QUICKSILVER & SCARLET WITCH) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 8 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 9 
UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL '97 
UNCANNY X-MEN 9 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 10 
FANTASTIC FOUR 35-36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 10 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 11 
UNCANNY X-MEN 11 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 15 
MARVEL HEROES & LEGENDS 97 
AVENGERS 16 (QUICKSILVER + SCARLET WITCH JOIN AVENGERS) 
THOR 116 (NO X-CHAR) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 12 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 12 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 13 
UNCANNY X-MEN 13 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 14 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 3 
MARVEL: HEROES AND LEGENDS 1996 
UNCANNY X-MEN 14 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 16 
UNCANNY X-MEN 15 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 17 
UNCANNY X-MEN 16 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 18 
UNCANNY X-MEN 17-27 
STRANGE TALES 156 
UNCANNY X-MEN 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 29 
UNCANNY X-MEN 30 
UNCANNY X-MEN 31 
UNCANNY X-MEN 32 
UNCANNY X-MEN 33 
UNCANNY X-MEN 34 
UNCANNY X-MEN 35 
UNCANNY X-MEN 36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 37 
UNCANNY X-MEN 38 
UNCANNY X-MEN 39 
EMMA FROST 1-6 
EMMA FROST 7-11 (COULD PUT LATER) 
GENERATION X -1 (BANSHEE, EMMA FROST, PROB. GOES LATER) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 40 
UNCANNY X-MEN 41 
UNCANNY X-MEN 42 


AVENGERS ANNUAL 1 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) (NEED TO FIND THIS) 
AVENGERS 45 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) 
AVENGERS 47-49 (MAGNETO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 43 
UNCANNY X-MEN 44 
UNCANNY X-MEN 45 
AVENGERS 53 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 71 (QUICKSILVER) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 46-48 
KA-ZAR QUARTERLY 2, 3, MARVEL TALES 30 (ANGEL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 49-52 
AVENGERS 60 (CAMEO) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 110 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 111 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 113 (VIPER) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 53 
AVENGERS 62 (NO X-CHAR) 
SUB MARINER 14 (60'S SERIES) 
AVENGERS 65 (NO X-CHAR) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 54-63 (#54 HAVOK) 
FANTASTIC FOUR 102-104 (MAGNETO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 64-65 
CLASSIC X-MEN 14 (2ND STORY) (Lilandra, DKen) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 66 
SECOND STORY IN X-MEN #94 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 1 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 2 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 3 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 4 
UNCANNY ORIGINS 9 (STORM) 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 5 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 6 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 7 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 8 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 9 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 10 
ASTONISHING TALES 1 (KA-ZAR) 
ASTONISHING TALES 2 (KA-ZAR, GAROKK) 
ASTONISHING TALES 3 (KA-ZAR, ZALADANE) 
ASTONISHING TALES 4 (KA-ZAR, ZALADANE) 
ASTONISHING TALES 5 (KA-ZAR, ZALADANE) 
ASTONISHING TALES 6 (KA-ZAR) 
ASTONISHING TALES 7 (KA-ZAR) 
ASTONISHING TALES 9 (KA-ZAR) 
ASTONISHING TALES 8 (KA-ZAR) 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 11 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 12 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 13 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 14 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 15 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 16 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 17 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 18 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 19 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 20 
FANTASTIC FOUR #102 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 21 
FANTASTIC FOUR #103 
FANTASTIC FOUR #104 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 22 
AVENGERS 75 
AVENGERS 76 
AVENGERS 77 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) 
AMAZING ADVENTURES 9-10 (MAGNETO) 
SUB-MARINER 52-54 (SUNFIRE) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 92 
AVENGERS 88 (PROF. X CAMEO) 
AVENGERS 92 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) 
HULK 150 
AMAZING ADVENTURES (BEAST) 11-13 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 4 
AMAZING ADVENTURES (BEAST) 14-17 
HULK 161 
AVENGERS 102 
AVENGERS 103 
AVENGERS 104 
AVENGERS 105 
AVENGERS 107 (SCARLET WITCH, NO X-CHAR) 
AVENGERS 110 
AVENGERS 111 
SHANNA THE SHE DEVIL 5 
DAREDEVIL 111 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
ADV INTO FEAR 20 (MORBIUS THE LIVING VAMPIRE) 
HULK 172 

AVENGERS 117 (SUNFIRE) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 172 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 173 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 174 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 175 

IRON MAN 68, 69, 70 (SUNFIRE) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 23 

HULK 180 (WOLVERINE) 
HULK 181 (WOLVERINE) 
HULK 182 (WOLVERINE) 
WHAT IF 31: WOLVERINE HAD KILLED THE HULK? (Not in chronology, but this is the divergence point.) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 9 (2ND STORY) (Aurora, Logan) 

DEFENDERS 15-16 
X-FORCE MINUS ONE (PROUDSTAR BROTHERS, BOOM-BOOM, HER DAD, PROUDSTAR PARENTS, WHITECLOUD, MYSTIQUE, DESTINY, RINGMASTER) 

UNCANNY ORIGINS 8 (NIGHTCRAWLER) (PAGES 1-14) 
EXCALIBUR MINUS ONE (Kurt, Margali, Amanda, set 2 days before Kurt goes off to the X-Men) 
UNCANNY ORIGINS 8 (NIGHTCRAWLER) (PAGES 15-22) 

GIANT SIZE X-MEN 1 
CLASSIC X-MEN 1 (2ND STORY) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 94 (1ST PART) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 27 (2ND STORY) 

GIANT-SIZE AVENGERS 1 (SCARLET WITCH) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 180 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 181 (VIPER) 
AVENGERS 131 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 182 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 183 (BEAST PHONE) 

FANTASTIC FOUR 150 (QUICKSILVER AND CRYSTALS WEDDING) 

GIANT SIZE AVENGERS 4 (Vision and Scarlet Wtich wedding) 
AVENGERS 137-140 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 38 
AVENGERS 141-144 
AVENGERS 147-149 
AVENGERS 145 
AVENGERS 146 


CAPTAIN BRITAIN WEEKLY 1-39 
SUPER SPIDER-MAN & CAPTAIN BRITAIN 231-247 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 


CAPTAIN AMERICA 224 
CLASSIC X-MEN 10, 2, 5 (2ND STORY) 
GIANT SIZE FANTASTIC FOUR 4 
GIANT-SIZE SPIDER-MAN 4 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
POWER MAN ANNUAL 1 (WHITE KING, MOSES MAGNUM) 
THOR 233 (SCOTT CAMETTE) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 94 (2ND PART) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 95 
CLASSIC X-MEN 3 (2ND) 
CHAMPIONS 1-6 
IRON MAN 90 
AVENGERS 150-153 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 6 
AVENGERS 154 
SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP 9 
AVENGERS 155-156 
DEFENDERS 44 
MARVEL COMICS SUPER-SPECIAL 1 
AVENGERS 157-160 
MARVEL TREASURY EDITION 13 
MS. MARVEL1-4 
MS. MARVEL 5 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 50 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 51 
CHAMPIONS 7-11 
AVENGERS 161-162 
CHAMPIONS 12-13 
GHOST RIDER 23 (CHAMPIONS) 
CHAMPIONS 14-15 
GODZILLA 3 (CHAMPIONS) 
IRON MAN ANNUAL 4 (CHAMPIONS) 
AVENGERS 163 
AVENGERS 164-166 
IRON MAN 98 (SUNFIRE) 
IRON MAN 99 (SUNFIRE) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 96 
CLASSIC X-MEN 4 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 97 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 161-162 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 51 
CLASSIC X-MEN 6 (2ND) 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPC 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 98-99 
CLASSIC X-MEN 7 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 100 
CLASSIC X-MEN 8 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 101 
MARVEL TEAM-UP ANNUAL 1 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 53 
MARVEL TALES 262 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 57 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 9 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 102, 103 
CLASSIC X-MEN 11 (2ND) 
IRON FIST 11 
UNCANNY X-MEN 104 

Ms. Marvel 6-10 
MTU 62 
Ms. Marvel 11-14 
UNCANNY X-MEN 105 
UNCANNY X-MEN 106 
DEVIL DINOSAUR VOL.2 #1 (GLADIATOR) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 107 
UNCANNY X-MEN 108 
IRON FIST 14 (1ST SABRETOOTH) 
IRON FIST 15 
UNCANNY X-MEN 109 
Power Man and Iron Fist 50 
SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP 14 
CHAMPIONS 16 
CHAMPIONS 17 
PPSSPIDER-MAN 17, 18 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 7 
MARVEL 2-IN-1 ANNUAL 2 
AVENGERS 167 
AVENGERS 168 
MS. MARVEL 15-16 
DEFENDERS 58 
MARVEL FANFARE 60/2 (ROGUE, MYSTIQUE, BROTHERHOOD) 
MS. MARVEL 17-18 
DOCTOR STRANGE (2ND SERIES) 29 
AVENGERS 170-171 
CLASSIC X-MEN 28 (2ND) 
BIZARRE ADVENTURES 27 (PHOENIX Story, Main FLASHBACK) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 110 
GHOST RIDER (1st SERIES) #34 
CAPTAIN AMERICA ANNUAL 4 
CLASSIC X-MEN 12 (2ND) 
HULK ANNUAL 7 
Classic X-Men 44 (2nd story) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 65-66 (1ST ARCADE)(CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
MARVEL TREASURY ED 26 
CLASSIC X-MEN 13, 18,39 (2ND) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 17 (2ND) 
AVENGERS 172 
SUPERNATURAL THRILLERS 9 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 69, 70 
MS. MARVEL 19 
AVENGERS 173-177 
MS. MARVEL 20-22 
Uncanny X-Men 111-114 
CLASSIC X-MEN 21 (2ND) 

AVENGERS ANNUAL 8 
AVENGERS 201 (2ND STORY) 
THOR 271 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 74 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
AVENGERS 178 
DAREDEVIL 155-157 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 228 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 229 

DEFENDERS 62-65 
UNCANNY X-MEN 115, 116 
CLASSIC X-MEN 22 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 117 
CLASSIC X-MEN 23 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 118 
CLASSIC X-MEN 24 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 119-121 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 56 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 57 
CLASSIC X-MEN 25 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 122 
CLASSIC X-MEN 31 (2ND) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 26 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 123 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 90 (BEAST) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 124 
CLASSIC X-MEN 30 (2ND) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 29 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 3 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 89 (NIGHTCRAWLER) 
BIZARRE ADVENTURES 27 (NIGHTCRAWLER STORY) 

Hulk Annual 8 (Sasquatch) 
Machine Man 18 (Sasquatch, Northstar, Aurora) 


AVENGERS 179-180 
UNCANNY X-MEN 125, 126 
CLASSIC X-MEN 32, 33 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 127, 128 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 237 
IRON MAN 114 
IRON MAN 115 
Avengers 181 
MS. MARVEL 23 
AVENGERS 182 
BLACK PANTHER 14 
Black panther 15 

MARVEL TEAM-UP 76 (Ms. Marvel) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 77 (Ms. Marvel) 

AVENGERS 183 
AVENGERS 184 
Marvel comics presents 160 (Ms. Marvel app. In one panel only, nothing else happens here chronologically) 
AVENGERS 185 
MARVEL 2-IN-1 51 
FF ANNUAL 14 (MS. MARVEL) 
IRON MAN 125 
UNCANNY X-MEN 129 (1ST PART) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 36, 20, 34 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 129 (2ND PART) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 35 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 130 
UNCANNY X-MEN 131 
UNCANNY X-MEN 132 
UNCANNY X-MEN 133 
UNCANNY X-MEN 134 
F 
CODE OF HONOR 2 (X-men apps, occur between pages of uxm 135) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 136 
UNCANNY X-MEN 137 
Fantastic Four Annual 18 (Prologue Only, occurs during UXM 137) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 43 (2ND) 

Note: the next Four books are not in chronology, but this is the divergence point. 
PHOENIX :The Untold Story 1 
WHAT IF? (1ST SERIES) 27: Phoenix had not died? 
WHAT IF? (2nd series) 32: Phoenix had not Died? 
WHAT IF? (2nd Series) 33: Phoenix Rose Again? 

UNCANNY X-MEN 138 
Bizarre Adventures 27 (Phoenix Story, framing sequence only, Sara Grey Bailey) 
Marvel Treasury Edition 27 (Angel Story) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 40 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 4 
FLASHBACK IN FF 286 (BEAST) 
Avengers 186 
AVENGERS 187 
AVENGERS 188 
Avengers Annual. 9 
Avengers 189-191 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 66 (SCARLET WITCH) 
Marvel Super-Heroes (3rd series) 10 (Ms. Marvel 24) 

Marvel Super Heroes (3rd series) 11 (MS. Marvel 25) (First part only) 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 66 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 78 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 84 

AVENGERS 192-196 
FLASHBACK IN AVENGERS 200 (MS. MARVEL) 
AVENGERS 197 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 250 
AVENGERS 198-200 
FLASHBACK IN AVG ANNUAL 10(MS. MARVEL) 
AVENGERS 201-205 
MARVEL TREASURY EDITION 27 (ANGEL STORY) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 139, 140 
MARVEL 2 IN 1 68 
Marvel 2 in 1 69 
UNCANNY X-MEN 141, 142 (DAYS OF FUTURE PAST) 

CLASSIC X-MEN 37, 38 (2ND) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 203 
Dazzler 1 
AVENGERS 206 
DAZZLER 2 

MARVEL TEAM-UP 79 (KULAN GATH) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 83 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
Marvel team-up 84 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 85 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 207 (MESMERO) 
DAREDEVIL 164 
HULK 250 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
HULK ANNUAL 11 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 90 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 75 
Avengers 207-208 
UNCANNY X-MEN 143-144 
Marvel Team-Up 100 
Rom 17,18 
SPIDERWOMAN 37, 38 (1st + 2nd Siryn) 
Marvel TWO in ONE 76 (ICEMAN) 
Uncanny X-Men 145 
UNCANNY X-MEN 146 
Uncanny X-Men 147 
Bizarre Adventures 27 (Iceman Story) 
Reprinted in: 
X-MEN RARITIES (Iceman story from Bizarre Adventures 27, in color) 
FANTASTIC FOUR 230 (BEAST) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 259 
Dazzler 3-5 
UNCANNY X-MEN 148 
SPIDER-WOMAN 39 
Best of Marvel Comics 1 (Wolverine Story) 
AVENGERS 209 
UNCANNY X-MEN 149 
DAZZLER 6-7 
Hulk 263 (Avalanche) 
Marvel Super-Heroes Vol.3 #11 (Part Three) (I put the issue here, as its the most important part of story) 
What IF (v.2) 66 (cannon scenes) (Brotherhood of Evil Mutants) 
Avengers Annual 10 
MARVEL 2-IN-1 78 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 261 
AVENGERS 210 
DEFENDERS 98 
AVENGERS 211 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 108-109 
ROM 31, 32 
Uncanny X-Men 150 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 5 
MARVEL FANFARE 1-4 
MICRONAUTS 37 
UNCANNY X-MEN 151-152 
MAN-THING (Second series) 11 (AMANDA + MARGALI) 
DOCTOR STRANGE (SECOND SERIES) 57-58 (AMANDA + MARGALI) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 153 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 117,118 
Marvel Graphic Novel 1: The Death of Captain Marvel 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 29 (SECOND STORY) (COLOSSUS, ILLYANA, WOLVERINE) 
MARVEL FANFARE 4 (Page 20) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 229 (JUGGERNAUT) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 230 (JUGGERNAUT) 
AVENGERS 214 
FANTASTIC FOUR 240 (Birth of Luna) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 154 
UNCANNY X-MEN 155 
DEFENDERS 103-109 
DAZZLER 8-14 
DAZZLER 15 
SPIDER-WOMAN 42 (Silver Samurai, Viper) 
SPIDER-WOMAN 43 (Silver Samurai, Viper) 
SPIDER-WOMAN 44 (VIPER) 
SPIDER-WOMAN 46 (GENERAL COY) 
AVENGERS ANNUAL. 11 
DAZZLER 16 
AVENGERS 221 (DAZZLER) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 156 
UNCANNY X-MEN 157 
UNCANNY X-MEN 158 
UNCANNY X-MEN 159 
UNCANNY X-MEN 160 
MAGIK 1-4 
Ka-Zar 29 (Belasco) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 161 
DAZZLER 17-21 

DEFENDERS 112-116 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 281 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 282 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 283 (VIPER) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 124 
AVENGERS 231 
DEFENDERS 120,121 
DAZZLER 22 
DAZZLER 23 
DAZZLER 24 
DAZZLER 25 
DAZZLER 26 
DAZZLER 27 
DAZZLER 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 162-166 
NEW MUTANTS GRAPHIC NOVEL 
NEW MUTANTS 1-3 
FANTASTIC FOUR 249, 250 
UNCANNY X-MEN 167 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 6 
NEW MUTANTS 4 
MARVEL TEAM-UP ANNUAL 6 

ALPHA FLIGHT 1 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 83 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 84 
MARVEL FANFARE 7 (UNUS,BLOB) 
CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS 1-3 

HULK 272 
Hulk 273 
HULK 277 (Beast) 
HULK 278-279 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE ANNUAL 7 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 96 
ALPHA FLIGHT 2 
FANTASTIC FOUR 260 (Alpha Flight) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 3 
ALPHA FLIGHT 4 
SPECIAL EDITION X-Men 1 (2ND STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 22 (Wolfsbane, Psyche, Moira story) 
FIRESTAR 1 
VISION AND THE SCARLET WITCH (1ST SERIES) #1-4 
Avengers 234 (Flashback) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 168 (ALL BUT LAST PAGE) 
WOLVERINE LS #1 (PAGES 1-6) 
X-MEN GRAPHIC NOVEL 
X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT II #1 
X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT II #2 
UNCANNY X-MEN #168 (LAST PAGE) 
WOLVERINE LS 1 (PAGES 7-22) 
WOLVERINE LS 2 
WOLVERINE LS 3 
WOLVERINE LS 4 
UNCANNY X-MEN 169 
UNCANNY X-MEN 170 


UNCANNY X-MEN 171 
NEW MUTANTS 5-8 
FANTASTIC FOUR 261 
FANTASTIC FOUR 262 
DEFENDERS 122-125 
UNCANNY X-MEN 172-174 

Uncanny x-men 175 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 7 (X-Men, after main part of UXM 175,but Before the wedding in UXM 175) 
MARVEL FANFARE 24 (2ND) (Beast, Wolverine, occurs after the main portion of UXM 175, but before the wedding in UXM 175) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 176 
IRON MAN 177 
DD 196-200 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 135 
MOON KNIGHT 35 

DEFENDERS 126-129 
DEFNDERS 130 
AVENGERS 239 (Beast, in between pages of Defenders 130) 
DEFENDERS 131 
Code of Honor 3 (Beast App only, not whole issue) 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 110 (BEAST) 
DEFENDERS 132 
DEFENDERS 133 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 13 (Beast) 
DAZZLER 29-34 
NEW MUTANTS 9-12 
MICRONAUTS 45 (ARCADE) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 177 
UNCANNY X-MEN 178 
UNCANNY X-MEN 179 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 91 (BLOB APP., UNUS DIES) 
NEW MUTANTS 13 
CRYSTAR 6 
X-MEN MICRONAUTS 1-4 
NEW MUTANTS 14 
UNCANNY X-MEN 180 
SECRET WARS 1-12 
NEW MUTANTS 15, 16 
UNCANNY X-MEN 181 
UNCANNY X-MEN 182 
CODE OF HONOR 3 (Rogue App.) 
NEW MUTANTS 17 
UNCANNY X-MEN 183 
DAZZLER GRAPHIC NOVEL 
BEAUTY AND THE BEAST 1-4 
DAZZLER 35-37 
MCP 32 (Sunfire Story) 
FIRESTAR 2 
NEW MUTANTS 18-20 
ALPHA FLIGHT 5-9 
ROM 56-58 
ALPHA FLIGHT 10-12 
KITTY PRYDE AND WOLVERINE 1-3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 184 
NEW MUTANTS 21, ANNUAL 1 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 149 (CANNONBALL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 185 
MARVEL FANFARE 40 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 186-188 
THOR 352 
KITTY PRYDE AND WOLVERINE 4-6 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 150 
NEW MUTANTS 22-25 
MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOLUME 3 NUMBER 2 (ROGUE STORY) 
ROM ANNUAL 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 189-191 
UNCANNY X-MEN 192 
MARVEL TEAM-UP ANNUAL 7 
REVENGE OF THE LIVING MONOLITH GN 
ALPHA FLIGHT 13 
CRYSTAR 11 
ALPHA FLIGHT 14 
ALPHA FLIGHT 15 
ALPHA FLIGHT 16-17 (Wolverine) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 18-21 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 8 
DEFENDERS 134-139 
ROM 61-66 
SUB-MARINER VOL.2 #3 (DEFENDERS) 

ROM ANNUAL 4 (IMPERIAL GUARD) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 305-307 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
DAZZLER 38 
WOLVERINE & NICK FURY: THE SCORPIO CONNECTION 
X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT 1, 2 
UNCANNY X-MEN 193 
NEW MUTANTS 26 
FIRESTAR 3, 4 
NEW MUTANTS 27, 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 194 
NIGHTCRAWLER 1-4 
POWER PACK 11, 12 
UNCANNY X-MEN 195 
NEW MUTANTS 29 
SECRET WARS II # 1 
NEW MUTANTS 30, 31 
AVENGERS 256 (Ka-Zar) 
AVENGERS 257 (Ka-Zar) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 196 
SECRET WARS II #2 
SECRET WARS II #3 
DEADPOOL TEAM UP 
UNCANNY X-MEN 197 
DAZZLER 39 
ALPHA FLIGHT 22-27 
SECRET WARS II #4 
DAZZLER 40 
UNCANNY X-MEN 198 
NEW MUTANTS 32-34 
SECRET WARS II # 5 
NEW MUTANTS SPEC ED 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 199 
LONGSHOT 1-6 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 9 
UNCANNY X-MEN 200 
NEW MUTANTS 35 
UNCANNY X-MEN 201 
MARVEL FANFARE 33 

VISION & Scarlet WItch II #1 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 2 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #2 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 3 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #3 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #4 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #5 


VISION + SCARLET WITCH II #6 (Magneto) 

POWER PACK 19 
ALPHA FLIGHT 28 
HULK 313 
ALPHA FLIGHT 29-32 
ALPHA FLIGHT 33, 34 (X-MEN) 
HEROES FOR HOPE 1 
DAZZLER 41 
SECRET WARS II #6 (not sure if any x-char are in this) 
SECRET WARS II #7 
NEW MUTANTS 36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 202 

DEFENDERS 140-141 
DEFENDERS 148 
ICEMAN 1-4 
DEFENDERS 142-147, 149-151 (#148 is a filler issue, that doesnt take place in chronology with these issues) 
AVENGERS 263 
FANTASTIC FOUR 286 
DEFENDERS 152 
X-FACTOR 1 
DAZZLER 42 

SECRET W II #8 
POWER PACK 20 
NEW MUTANTS 37 
UNCANNY X-MEN 203 



SECRET WARS II #9 
VISION & Scarlet witch II #7 (Toad) 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II # 8 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II # 9 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II # 10 


CAPTAIN AMERICA ANNUAL 8 
NEW MUTANTS 38-40 
ALPHA FLIGHT 35-36 


PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 116 (Sabretooth) 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 117 (no x-char) 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II #11 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II #12 (Magneto) 

NEW MUTANTS 41 
NEW MUTANTS 42 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 2 (NEW MUTANTS) 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 119 (Sabretooth) 

NEW MUTANTS 43 
NEW MUTANTS 44 


X-MEN ARCHIVES FEATURING CAPTAIN BRITAIN 1-7 
CAPTAIN BRITAIN TRADE PAPERBACK 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 2 
UNCANNY X-MEN 204, 205 
UNCANNY X-MEN 206 
X-FACTOR 2 
X-FACTOR 3 
ETERNALS VOL. 2 #8 (ANGEL) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 37-39 
AVENGERS 272 
ALPHA FLIGHT 40 
MARVEL FANFARE 28 
ALPHA FLIGHT ANNUAL 1 
ALPHA FLIGHT 41-42 

X-FACTOR 4 
X-FACTOR 5 
X-FACTOR 6 
X-FACTOR 7 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 1 
THOR 365 (Piper) 
IRON MAN ANNUAL 8 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 282 
MARVEL FANFARE 32 (BEAST AND ANGEL IN CAP AMERICA STORY) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 207, 208 
X-FACTOR 8 
UNCANNY X-MEN 209, 210 
X-FACTOR 9 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 10 
NEW MUTANTS 45 
UNCANNY X-MEN 211 
X-FACTOR 10 
THOR 373 
POWER PACK 27 
NEW MUTANTS 46 
UNCANNY X-MEN 212 
THOR 374 
X-FACTOR 11 
UNCANNY X-MEN 213, 214 
DAREDEVIL 238 
X-FACTOR 12 

AVENGERS ANNUAL 15 (FREEDOM FORCE, VAL COOPER) 
WEST COAST AVENGERS ANNUAL 1 (FREEDOM FORCE, BEAST) 
IRON MAN 214 (VAL COOPER) 

AVENGERS 280 

MEPHISTO VS. 1 
MEPHISTO VS. 2 
MARVEL FANFARE 40 (ANGEL STORY) 
MEPHISTO VS. 3 
MEPHISTO VS. 4 
NEW MUTANTS 47 
UNCANNY X-MEN 215-216 
UNCANNY X-MEN 217-218 
MARVEL FANFARE 38 (2ND) 
STRANGE TALES VOLUME 3 NUMBER 9 
ALPHA FLIGHT 43 (SEBASTIAN SHAW) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 44-51 
ALPHA FLIGHT Annual 2 
NEW MUTANTS 48 
NEW MUTANTS 49 
NEW MUTANTS 50 
NEW MUTANTS 51 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 3 
Marvel SUP HR Spring SPEC 1 (MAGIK + CANNONBALL) 
NEW MUTANTS 52 
FALLEN ANGELS 1 
FALLEN ANGELS 2 
NEW MUTANTS 53 
NEW MUTANTS 54 
UNCANNY X-MEN 219 
SPIDER-MAN VS. WOLVERINE 1 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 29 
FANTASTIC FOUR VS X-MEN 1-4 
X-MEN VS AVENGERS 1-4 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 4 (SECOND STORY) 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 11 
X-FACTOR 13 
X-FACTOR 14 
POWER PACK 36 (MASTER MOLD) 
X-FACTOR 15 
THOR 377-378 
THOR 379 
X-FACTOR 16 
X-FACTOR 17 
FALLEN Angels 3-4 
Fallen Angels 5-8 
POWER PACK 33 
X-FACTOR 18-20 
HULK 336-337 

FANTASTIC FOUR 304 
FANTASIC FOUR 305 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 20 
FANTASTIC FOUR 306 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 2 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 33 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 34 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 35 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 36 

NEW MUTANTS 55 
NEW MUTANTS 56 
NEW MUTANTS 57 

UNCANNY X-MEN 220 
DAREDEVIL 248-249 
ALPHA FLIGHT 52-53 (wolverine) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 221 
UNCANNY X-MEN 222 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 333 (FREEDOM FORCE, VAL) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 334 (FREEDOM FORCE, VAL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 223 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 335 (VAL COOPER) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 224 
HULK 340 
NEW MUTANTS 58 
UNCANNY X-MEN 225 
UCNANNY X-MEN 226 
UNCANNY X-MEN 227 
NEW MUTANTS 59 
NEW MUTANTS 60 
NEW MUTANTS 61 


NEW MUTANTS 62 (NM in opening pages only, rest of story is about Empath & Magm) 
SPELLBOUND 4 
NEW MUTANTS 63 (Illyana, framing narration only) 
NEW MUTANTS 64 
NEW MUTANTS 65 
NEW MUTANTS 66 

X-FACTOR 21 
X-FACTOR 22 
X-FACTOR 23 

X-FACTOR 24 
X-FACTOR 25 
POWER PACK 35 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 339 
X-FACTOR 26 
FANTASTIC FOUR 312 

X-FACTOR 27, 28 
ST CD DS 18 
CLOAK + DAGGER VOLUME 3 # 1 
CLOAK + DAGGER VOLUME 3 # 2 
UNCANNY X-MEN 228, 229 
MARVEL FANFARE 55 (NEW MUTANTS) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 230 (NEW MUTANTS) 
EXCALIBUR SPCECIAL EDITION 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 3 (SECOND STORY) 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 3 
EXCALIBUR 1-3 
POWER PACK 40 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 4 
UNCANNY X-MEN 231 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 1-10 (WOLVERINE: SAVE THE TIGER) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 232 
UNCANNY X-MEN 233 

X-FACTOR 29 
X-FACTOR 30 
X-FACTOR 31 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 344 (Val cooper) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 346 (FREEDOM FORCE, Val) 

X-FACTOR 32 
X-FACTOR 33 
FANTASTIC FOUR 342 (FLASHBACK WITH RUSTY) 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 21 (QUICKSILVER) 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 21 (SECOND STORY) (QUICKSILVER) 
INHUMANS GRAPHIC NOVEL (QUICKSILVER) 
DAREDEVIL 269 (BLOB & PYRO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 234 
WOLVERINE 1-3 
WOLVERINE: DOOMBRINGER 
MARVEL AGE ANNUAL 4 
WOLVERINE 4-8 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 12 
ALPHA FLIGHT 54-60 
ALPHA FLIGHT 61 (x-men cameo) 
FANTASTIC FOUR 314 (BELASCO) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 235-237 
X-TERMINATORS 1-2 
UNCANNY X-MEN 238 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 16 (LONGSHOT/X-MEN STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 10-17 (COLOSSUS) 
WOLVERINE 9 
WOLVERINE10 
NEW MUTANTS 67-70 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 347 (VAL) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 348 (VAL) 
AVENGERS 298 
HULK 350 (BEAST) 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 17 (BEAST) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 349 (BEAST BTS) 
AVENGERS 299 
AVENGERS 300 

UNCANNY X-MEN 239 
X-FACTOR 34 
X-FACTOR 35 
UNCANNY X-MEN 240 
UNCANNY X-MEN 241 
PETER PARKER, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 147 
X-FACTOR 36 
EXCALIBUR 4, 5 
X-TERMINATORS 3 
NEW MUTANTS 71 
POWER PACK 42 
X-TERMINATORS 4 
NEW MUTANTS 72 
NEW MUTANTS 73 
CLOAK AND DAGGER VOL. 3 #4 
POWER PACK 44 
X-FACTOR 37 
UNCANNY X-MEN 242 
FANTASTIC FOUR 324 
EXCALIBUR 6, 7 
X-FACTOR 38 
UNCANNY X-MEN 243 
X-FACTOR 39 
DAMAGE CONTROL L.S. #4 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 15 (MARVEL GIRL STORY) 

NEW MUTANTS 74 
EXCALIBUR 8 
NEW MUTANTS 75 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 4 (THIRD STORY)(INFERNO AFTERMATH) 

X-FACTOR 40 
NEW MUTANTS 76 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 350 (VAL) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 351 (VAL) 
MCP 41 (FREEDOM FORCE, SEN. KELLY STORY) 

EXCALIBUR 9-10 
EXCALIBUR 11 Pages 1-14 
MOJO MAYHEM 
EXCALIBUR 11 Pages 15-18 
EXCALIBUR 20 
EXCALIBUR 11 Pages 19-22 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 352-354 (VAL) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 17-24 (CYCLOPS, BANSHEE, MOIRA) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 355 (VAL) 
AVENGERS 305 (BEAST) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS # 39-44 (BEAST IN WONDER MAN STORY) 
FLASHBACK STORY IN X-FACTOR 47 
UNCANNY X-MEN 244 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 13 (SECOND STORY) 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 6-7 
WOLVERINE 11-16 
UNCANNY X-MEN 245 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 13 


MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOL.3 #6-8 (SENTINELS STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 48 (STORM STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 24-31 (HAVOK/ WOLVERINE STORY) 
HAVOK & WOLVERINE: MELTDOWN 1-4 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 38-47 (WOLVERINE SHADOW STORY) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 62-77 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 51-53 (wolverine/ alpha flight) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 78-86 
WOLVERINE: THE JUNGLE ADVENTURE 
WOLVERINE: DOOMBRINGER 

WOLVERINE 17 
WOLVERINE 18 
UNCANNY X-MEN 246 

WOLVERINE 19 (EXCEPT LAST 2 PAGES WITH MAGNETO, WHICH HAPPEN LATER) 
Wolverine 20 
UNCANNY X-MEN 247 
UNCANNY X-MEN 248 
Flashback in UNCANNY X-MEN 267 
Flashback in UNCANNY X-MEN 249 
WOLVERINE 21 
UNCANNY X-MEN 249 
UNCANNY X-MEN 250 
WOLVERINE 22-23 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 363 (WOLVERINE app., between panels of WOLV #23) 

X-FACTOR 41 
X-FACTOR 42 

NEW MUTANTS 77 
NEW MUTANTS 78 
X-FACTOR 43 
X-FACTOR 44 
X-FACTOR 45 
X-FACTOR 46 
X-FACTOR 47 (1ST PAGE ONLY, REST IS FB STORY) 
X-FACTOR 48 
FANTASTIC FOUR 335 (APOCALYPSE) 
X-FACTOR 49 
X-FACTOR 50 
NEW MUTANTS 79 
NEW MUTANTS 80 
NEW MUTANTS 81 
NEW MUTANTS 82 

Flashback only in AVENGERS ANNUAL 19 (STORY 3) (MAGNETO) (comic to be put in proper place) ??? 


UNCANNY X-MEN 251 
UNCANNY X-MEN 252 
UNCANNY X-MEN 253 (magneto) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 254 (VAL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 255 (FREEDOM FORCE) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 256 
NEW MUTANTS 83 
NEW MUTANTS 84 
NEW MUTANTS 85 
NEW MUTANTS 86 (FREEDOM FORCE) 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 52 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 18 (NO X-CHARACTERS) 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 322 (Sabretooth) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 323 (Sabretooth-BTS) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 324 (Sabretooth) 

NEW MUTANTS 87 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 5 (ATLANTIS ATTACKS) 
X-FACTOR 51 
NEW MUTANTS 88 
NEW MUTANTS 89 
QUASAR 8 (NEW MUTANTS) 

X-FACTOR ANNUAL 4 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 5 (NO X-CHARACTERS) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST ANNUAL 4 
THOR ANNUAL 14 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 22 

WOLVERINE 19 (LAST 2 PAGES WITH MAGNETO ONLY) 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 158 (MAGNETO) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 327 (MAGNETO) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 366 (MAGNETO) 
THOR 411 (Juggernaut) 
THOR 412 (Juggernaut) 


AVENGERS WEST COAST 53 (MAGNETO) 

AVENGERS 312 (FREEDOM FORCE) 


UNCANNY X-MEN 257 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 60 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 54 (MAGNETO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 258 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 61 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS 313 pP. 1-13 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 55 (MAGNETO) pgs. 1-2 
AVENGERS 313 PP. 14-20 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 367 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS 313 PP. 21-22 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 55 PP. 3-17 
AVENGERS ANN. 19/3 FB ONLY P. 10 PANELS 2-6 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 55 PP. 18-22 


PUNISHER 29 (FREEDOM FORCE) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 368 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 369 (SELENE) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 370 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 56 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 57 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 59 (no x-char) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 60 (MAGNETO) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 328 (SEBASTIAN SHAW) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 329 (SEBASTIAN SHAW) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 78 (MAGNETO, SELENE, WHITE QUEEN) 


HULK 369 (FREEDOM FORCE) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 82-87 (FIRESTAR/FREEDOM FORCE/ WHITE QUEEN STORY) 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 61 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 62 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST ANNUAL 5 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 19 (QUICKILVER) 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 19 (QUICKILVER) (5TH STORY) 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 63 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 74 (NO X-CHAR) 




ALPHA FLIGHT 87 
ALPHA FLIGHT 88 (VAL) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 89 
ALPHA FLIGHT 90 
Avengers 320-324 (alpha flight) 
Alpha Flight 91 
ALPHA FLIGHT 92 


EXCALIBUR 12-19 
EXCALIBUR 21 
EXCALIBUR 22 
EXCALIBUR 23 
EXCALIBUR 24 
EXCALIBUR 25 
BLACK KNIGHT2 2 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
QUASAR 11 
EXCALIBUR 27 


QUASAR 17 (QUICKILVER) 



UNCANNY X-MEN 259 
UNCANNY X-MEN 260 
X-FACTOR 52-54 
UNCANNY X-MEN 261 
PUNISHER 33-34 (REAVERS) 

Punisher: No Escape (Val) 
Nomad L.S. 1-4 (Val) 

X-FACTOR 55 
UNCANNY X-MEN 262 (Val) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 263 (Val) 
X-FACTOR 56 (PAGES 1-10) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 264 (Val) 
X-FACTOR 56 (PAGES 11-22) 
X-FACTOR 57-58 
GHOST RIDER (90S SERIES) 9 (X-FACTOR) 
NEW MUTANTS 90-92 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 73-74 (COLOSSUS) 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 75 (ICEMAN, BEAST BTS) 


EXCALIBUR 28-34 
X-MEN SPOTLIGHT ON...THE STARJAMMERS 1, 2 


UNCANNY X-MEN 265 
UNCANNY X-MEN 266 (Val) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 269 (OCCURS BETWEEN 266 + 267) (Val) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 267 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 23 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 6 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 5 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 14 


MCP 31-38 (EXCALIBUR STORY) (note: the big dragon is in 37 and 38, so it happens after the cross time caper, Kitty is in it so it happens after girls's school from heck) 
EXCALIBUR 26 (This has Moira and Kitty and Widget in it, so it must happen in this period)??? 
THOR 427-430 
MCP 75 (EXCALIBUR STORY) 
QUASAR 23 (RACHEL) 
SHE HULK 26 

X-MEN: TRUE FRIENDS 1-3 
EXCALIBUR 35 
EXCALIBUR 36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 268 
Marvel comics presents 79 (Sunspot Story) 
NEW MUTANTS SUMMER SPECIAL 1 
NEW MUTANTS 93 
NEW MUTANTS 94 
WOLVERINE RAHNE OF TERRA 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 48-50 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 54-61 
WOLVERINE 24-30 
WOLVERINE 31-33 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 62-63 
WOLVERINE 34 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 74 (ICEMAN STORY) 
X-FACTOR 59 
X-FACTOR SPECIAL: PRISONER OF LOVE 
MARVEL FANFARE 50 (FRAMING SEQUENCE) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 71 (WARLOCK STORY) 

X-TINCTION AGENDA: 
UNCANNY X-MEN 270; NEW MUTANTS 95; X-FACTOR 60; UNCANNY X-MEN 271;NEW MUTANTS 96; X-FACTOR 61; UNCANNY X-MEN 272, NEW MUTANTS 97; X-FACTOR 62 

WOLVERINE: BLOODLUST 
MARVEL FANFARE 54-55 (WOLVERINE STORY) 
Alpha flight 93-94 
FANTASTIC FOUR 347-349 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 65 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 66 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 67 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 68 (QUICKSILVER) 

AVENGERS 329 (QUICKILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 69 (QUICKSILVER) 

EXCALIBUR 37 
EXCALIBUR 38 
EXCALIBUR 39 



EXCALIBUR 40 
EXCALIBUR 41 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 70 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 71 (SUNFIRE) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 74 (SUNFIRE) 


MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 64-71 
WOLVERINE 35-37 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 15 (STORY 4) (WOLVERINE STORY) 

X-FACTOR 63-64 

UNCANNY X-MEN 273 
UNCANNY X-MEN 274 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 85-92 (BEAST STORY) 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 7 STORY 3 (JEAN/SCOTT/X-FACTOR JR.) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 275 
UNCANNY X-MEN 276 
UNCANNY X-MEN 277 

DEADPOOL MINUS ONE 

NEW MUTANTS 98 
NEW MUTANTS 99 
NEW MUTANTS100 
EXCALIBUR GRAPHIC NOVEL: WEIRD WAR III 
NEW WARRIORS 5 (WHITE QUEEN) 
NEW WARRIORS 8 (WHITE QUEEN) 
NEW WARRIORS 9 (WHITE QUEEN) 
NEW WARRIORS 10 (WHITE QUEEN) 

Kings of Pain: 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 7 
NEW WARRIORS ANNUAL 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 15 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 6 

X-FACTOR 65-68 


ALPHA FLIGHT 95-101 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 387-392 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 24 (GATEWAY) 

INFINITY GAUNTLET 2 
INFINITY GAUNTLET 3 
SILVER SURFER 52 
Silver surfer 54 
INFINITY GAUNTLET 4 

UNCANNY X-MEN 278, 279; X-FACTOR 69; UNCANNY X-MEN 280; X-FACTOR 70 
SHIELD 25-29 
AVENGERS 332-333 (WOLVERINE) 
SHE-HULK 29 
SHE-HULK 30 
SHE-HULK 34 
SHE-HULK 35 

SPM 8-12 
Namor 21-25 
Wolverine 44 (Flashback) 
WOLVERINE 38-44 




WOLVERINE 45-47 
WOLVERINE: BLOODY CHOICES 
DAMAGE CONTROL (V.3) 3 (QUICKSILVER) 
DAMAGE CONTROL (V.3) 4 
AVENGERS 334-339 (BEAST in 335-339) 

DEATHLOK 2-5 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 89 (SELENE STORY) 

X-FACTOR 71 
X-FACTOR 72 
X-FACTOR 73 
AVENGERS 343 (QUICKSILVER) 

X-MEN 1 (A-E) 
X-MEN 2, 3 

X-FORCE 1-3 
SPM 16 
X-FORCE 4 
Marvel Comics Presents 90-97 (Cable/Ghost Rider Story only) 
X-FORCE 5 
SHIELD 33-35 

NOMAD VOL.2 #2 (Val Cooper) 

DAREDEVIL 307 
Nomad Vol.2 #4 (Deadpool, Tolliver) 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 45 
NOMAD VOL.2 #5 
DAREDEVIL 308 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 46 
DARDEVIL 309 
NOMAD VOL.2 #6 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 47 


SPIDER-MAN 15 
WONDER MAN 5-6 (BEAST) 


NEW WARRIORS 20 (MARIKO) 

AVENGERS 344 

Operation Galactic Storm: 
CAP AMERICA 398 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 80 
QUASAR 32 
WONDER MAN 7 
AVENGERS 345 
IRON MAN 278 
THOR 445 
CAP AMERICA 399 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 81 
QUASAR 33 
WONDER MAN 8 
AVENGERS 346 
IRON MAN 279 
THOR 446 
CAP AMERICA 400 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 82 
QUASAR 34 
WONDER MAN 9 
AVENGERS 347 




X-FACTOR 74 
X-FACTOR 75 
HULK 390-391; X-FACTOR 76; HULK 392 

ALPHA FLIGHT 102-106 
ALPHA FLIGHT 107 (X-FACTOR) 


MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 85-92 (WOLVERINE STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 89 (X-MEN/MOJO) 
QUASAR 28 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 93-98 (WOLVERINE STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 99 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 100 
HEARTS OF DARKNESS (WOLVERINE) 
WOLVERINE AND THE PUNISHER 1-3 
WOLVERINE 54 (SHATTERSTAR) (HAS TO BE BEFORE 48-50 DUE TO BROWN COSTUME) 
WOLVERINE 48-50 

EXCALIBUR: THE POSSESSION 
EXCALIBUR: AIR APPARENT 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 174 (TECHNET) 
EXCALIBUR 42-52 
EXCALIBUR 53 
SPIDER-MAN 25 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN AND MEGGAN) 
EXCALIBUR 54 

X-MEN 4-7 
UNCANNY X-MEN 281-286 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 101-108 (NIGHTCRAWLER/WOLVERINE) 
WOLVERINE 51-53 
WOLVERINE 55-57 
WOLVERINE 60-64 
WOLVERINE 65 
WOLVERINE 58-59 

X-MEN ANNUAL 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 287-288 

X-MEN 8 
GHOST RIDER 26 
X-MEN 9 
GHOST RIDER 27 

GHOST RIDER 29 (Wolverine) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 109-116 

AVENEGSR WEST COAST 83 (QUICKSILVER) 
X-FACTOR 77 
X-FACTOR 78 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 402-407 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 408 (FIRST STORY) (WOLFSBANE) 

DOCTOR STRANGE (3rd SERIES) #41 (WOLVERINE) 

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 2 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 7 STORY 1, 2, 3 

WOLVERINE: EVILUTION (BOOM-BOOM) 
New warriors 19 (Gideon) 
NIGHT THRASHER 3 (GIDEON) 
X-FORCE 6-11 
X-FORCE ANNUAL 1 STORY 3 
X-FORCE ANNUAL 1 STORY 2 (TAKI, ARTIE, LEECH ONLY) 

X-FORCE 12-15 
UNCANNY X-MEN 289, 290 
X-MEN 10-11 

DARKHAWK 19,20 (BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL MUTANTS) 


ALPHA FLIGHT 108 
NICK FURY, AGENT OF SHIELD 32 (wild child) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 109 

INFINITY WAR 1 
FANTASTIC FOUR 367 
INFINITY WAR 2 
MOON KNIGHT 41 
MOON KNIGHT 43 
WONDER MAN 13 
QUASAR 38 
Warlock and the Infinity Watch 8 
INFINITY WAR 3 
Doctor strange vol.3 #44 (JUGGERANUT) 
Alpha flight 110 
NEW WARRIORS 27 
FANTASTIC FOUR 368 
INFINITY WAR 4 
QUASAR 39 
SLEEPWALKER 17 (BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL MUTANTS, XAVIER BTS) 
SLEEPWALKER 18 
FANTASTIC FOUR 369 
ALPHA FLIGHT 111 
WONDER MAN 14 
MOON KNIGHT 44 
INFINITY WAR 5 
DOCOTR STRANGE 46 
QUASAR 40 
WONDER MAN 15 
INFINITY WAR 6 
FANTASTIC FOUR 370 
ALPHA FLIGHT 112 

ALPHA FLIGHT 113-120 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 84 (Val Flashbacks) 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 87 (WOLVERINE) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 88 (WOLVERINE) 

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 117-122 

NEW WARRIORS 29 (VAL COOPER) 
NEW WARRIORS 30 (VAL COOPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 408 (THIRD STORY)(QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS 350 
AVENGERS 351 
UNCANNY X-MEN 291-293 
X-MEN 12-13 
EXCALIBUR VS. THE X-MEN SPECIAL 
EXCALIBUR 55-56 
EXCALIBUR 57-58 
EXCALIBUR 59-60 
CABLE LIMITED SERIES 1, 2 
X-FACTOR 79, 80, 81 
X-FACTOR 82, 83 

X-CUTIONERS SONG: 
UNCANNY X-MEN 294; X-FACTOR 84; X-MEN 14; X-FORCE 16 
UNCANNY X-MEN 295; X-FACTOR 85; X-MEN 15; X-FORCE 17 
UNCANNY X-MEN 296; X-FACTOR 86; X-MEN 16; X-FORCE 18 

UNCANNY X-MEN 297 
STRYFES STRIKE FILE 1 
AVENGERS 357 (CORTEZ) 
SECRET DEFENDERS 1-3 

HULK 402 (JUGGERNAUT) 
HULK 403 (JUGGERNAUT) 
HULK 404 (JUGGERNAUT) 


FANTASTIC FOUR 374 (WOLVERINE) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESNTS 122-130 (WOLVERINE STORY) 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 197 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 198 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 199 
WOLVERINE 66-68 
X-MEN 17-19 
New Warriors 31 
X-FORCE 19 
X-FACTOR 87-91 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 8 

SILVER SURFER 79 
SILVER SURFER 81 
SILVER SURFER 82 


SILVER SURFER ANNUAL 6 (No X-Characters) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 131 (WOLVERINE, TYGER TYGER) 
WOLVERINE: INNER FURY 
TERROR INC. 9 
TERROR INC. 10 
ALPHA FLIGHT 121 (X-MEN) 
SECRET DEFENDERS 11 (NORTHSTAR) 
SCARLET WITCH 1-4 
SECRET DEFENDERS 18, 19 (ARCHANGEL, ICEMAN, PROF. X) 
SPIDER-WOMAN VOL.2 #2 (IMPORTANT VALERIE COOPER FB) 
NEW WARRIORS 32 (ARCHANGEL) 
NEW WARRIORS 33 (ARCHANGEL) 
NEW WARRIORS 34 (ARCHANGEL) 


INFINITY CRUSADE 1 
ALPHA FLIGHT 122 
THOR 464 
INFINITY CRUSADE 2 
DR. STRANGE (V.3) 55 
ALPHA FLIGHT 123 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 104 
DARKHAWK 30 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 105 
INFINITY CRUSADE 3 
ALPHA FLIGHT 124 
INFINITY CRUSADE 4 
INFINITY CRUSADE 5 
SILVER SURFER (V.3) 85 
ALPHA FLIGHT 125 
ALPHALIGHT 126 
ALPHA FLIGHT 127 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 106 
INFINITY CRUSADE 6 
ALPHA FLIGHT 128-130 
NORTHSTAR 1-4 

HULK 415 (Starjammers) 
HULK 416 (Starjammers) 

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 17 (2ND STORY) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 298-300 
EXCALIBUR 61-65 
EXCALIBUR 66 PAGES 1-11 
EXCALIBUR ANNUAL 1 
EXCALIBUR 66 PAGES 12-22 
EXCALIBUR 67 
EXCALIBUR 68-70 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 1 
X-MEN 20-22 
WOLVERINE 69-71 
X-MEN 23 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 17 (1st story) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 301 
UNCANNY X-MEN 302 
UNCANNY X-MEN 303 
WOLVERINE 72-74 
PUNISHER WAR ZONE 19 (WOLVERINE) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 132-136 (WOLVERINE, CYBER) 
WOLVERINE: KILLING 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 137-142 (WOLVERINE) 
WOLVERINE & NICK FURY: SCORPIO RISING 

X-FACTOR 92 
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD 46 
X-FORCE 20 
X-FORCE 21 
X-FORCE 22 
X-FORCE 23 
X-FORCE 24 
CABLE 1 
CABLE 2 
CABLE 3 
CABLE 4 
NOMAD (V.2) 20 
DEADPOOL: THE CIRCLE CHASE 1-4 
Thunderstrike 2 (Juggernaut) 
X-FORCE 25 
X-MEN 24 
X-FACTOR 93 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 2 (MAGNETO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 304 
SPIDER-MAN AND X-FACTOR: SHADOWGAMES 1-3 
X-FACTOR 94 
UNCANNY X-MEN 305 
Uncanny x-men 306 
SABRETOOTH LIMITED SERIES 1-4 

DARKHOLD 3 (SABRETOOTH) 
DARKHOLD 4 (SABRETOOTH) 
SPIDER-MAN, PUNISHER, SABRETOOTH: Designer genes 

GAMBIT LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
X-MEN 25 
WOLVERINE 75 
X-MEN ANNUAL 2 
X-FORCE 26, ANNUAL. 2 
EXCALIBUR 71 

AVENGERS 363 (LILANDRA) 

Avengers 367 (Cortez, acolytes) 

BLOODTIES: 
AVENGERS 368 
X-MEN 26 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 101 
UNCANNY X-MEN 307 
AVENGERS 369 

VENOM: MADNESS 1 (JUGGERNAUT) 
VENOM: MADNESS 2 (JUGGERNAUT) 
VENOM: MADNESS 3 (JUGGERNAUT) 


X-FORCE 27 
X-Force 28 
CABLE 5 
X-FORCE 29-30 
X-FACTOR 95-100 
CABLE 6-8 
X-FORCE 31 
X-Men UNLIMITED 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 308 
X-MEN 27,28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 309 
Excalibur 72-74 


NIGHT THRASHER VOL.2 #3 (TYGER TYGER) 
NIGHT THRASHER VOL.2 #4 (TYGER TYGER) 


NEW WARRIORS 42 (GLADIATOR) 
NOVA VOL.2 #1 (GLADIATOR) 
STARBLAST 1 
QUASAR 54 
STARBLAST 2 
QUASAR 55 
STARBLAST 3 
QUASAR 56 
STARBLAST 4 

New Warriors 44 
X-MEN 29 

CHILDSPLAY: 
X-FORCE 32 
New Warriors 45 
X-FORCE 33 
New Warriors 46 
X-FORCE 34 

Cable 9-11 
UNCANNY X-MEN 310 
X-Men: The Wedding Album (2nd part shows Wedding reception + overlaps with the wedding) 
What IF? (2nd series) 60 (parts overlap with the wedding) 
X-Men 30 
Excalibur 75 
X-Men: Phoenix 1-3 (Rachel) 
ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS AND PHOENIX 1-4 
X-Men Unlimited 4 
X-FACTOR 101 
X-FACTOR 102 (Page 1 through Page 22 Panel 1) 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 9 
X-FACTOR 102 (Page 22 Panel 2 through Page 23) 
SPIDER MAN: THE MUTANT AGENDA 1-3 
X-MEN 31 
X-MEN 32 
Uncanny X-Men 311 
UNCANNY X-MEN 312 
UNCANNY X-MEN 313 
UNCANNY X-MEN 314 
WOLVERINE 76-84 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 150-151 (Wolverine) 
X-Men Unlimited 5 
Excalibur 76 
EXCALIBUR 77 
Cable 12-14 
X-Men 33 
X-Men 34 

Spider-Man 43 (Shinobi Shaw) 
Night Thrasher 20 (Shinobi Shaw) 
DAREDEVIL 330 (GAMBIT) 
X-FACTOR 103-105 
Uncanny X-Men 315 
AVENGERS 377 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS 378 
AVENGERS 380-382 (ACOLYTES) 

X-Force 35,36,37 
CABLE 15 
Doctor Strange (1990s series) 69 (POLARIS + FORGE + Xavier) 
X-Men Annual 18 (Second Story) (Bishop & Jubilee) 
X-Men Annual 18 
EXCALIBUR 78 
EXCALIBUR 79 
EXCALIBUR 80 
EXCALIBUR 81 
X-MEN 35 
SILVER SABLE 23 (DEADPOOL) 
Deadpool (Second Limited Series 1994) 1-4 
X-Men Annual 3 Second Story (Banshee) 

--------------------------------------------PHALANX COVENANT------------------------------- 
UNCANNY X-MEN 316 
X-MEN 36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 317 
X-MEN 37 
X-FACTOR 106 
X-Force 38 
EXCALIBUR 82 
WOLVERINE 85 
CABLE 16 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


Blaze 4-6 (Warpath) 
X-Force 39 
X-FORCE ANNUAL 3 (BOTH STORIES) 
CABLE 17-19 

Ghost Rider 57 
Ghost Rider, Wolverine, Punisher: The Dark Design 
WOLVERINE 86 (no wolverine) 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED 6 (CYCLOPS CAMEO) 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 6 
UNCANNY X-MEN 318 
X-MEN ANNUAL 3 (First Story) 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 7 
BISHOP LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
X-Men Ashcan 
EXCALIBUR ANNUAL 2 (ALL 3 STORIES) 
EXCALIBUR 83-85 
Generation X Ashcan 
Generation X Collectors Preview 
GENERATION X 1-3 
X-MEN 38 
ROGUE 1-4 

X-FORCE 40-41 
X-FORCE 42 

UNCANNY X-MEN 319 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1994 (1ST STORY) 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1994 (6TH STORY) 
FORCE WORKS 10 (2ND STORY) (BEAST) 

X-Men 39 Page 14 
ROGUE 1 
X-MEN 39 Pages 1-13, 15-end 
ROGUE 2 
ROGUE 3 
ROGUE 4 

X-FORCE 40-41 
X-FORCE 42 

WOLVERINE 87 
WOLVERINE 88 
FANTASTIC FOUR 394 (WOLVERINE BTS) 
FANTASTIC FOUR 395 (WOLVERINE) 

GENERATION X 4 
X-FACTOR 107 
X-FACTOR 108 
X-FACTOR 109 

NAMOR 54 (TRISH) 
NAMOR 56 (TRISH) 

WOLVERINE 89 

LEGIONQUEST: 
UNCANNY X-MEN 320 
X-MEN 40 

X-FORCE 43 
WOLVERINE 90 
EXCALIBUR 86 
X-FACTOR 110 
X-FACTOR 111 

UNCANNY X-MEN 321 
CABLE 20 
X-MEN 41 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Age of Apocalypse: 
X-Men Ashcan (Age of Apocalypse) 
X-Men Collectors Preview 
X-MEN CHRONICLES 1 
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE: SINISTER BLOODLINES 
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE: BY THE LIGHT 
X-MEN CHRONICLES 2 
(X-man 96) 
X-MAN MINUS ONE 
BLINK 1-4 
X-MEN ALPHA 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 1 
WEAPON X 1 
FACTOR X 1 
X-CALIBRE 1 
X-MAN 1 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 1 
GENERATION NEXT 1 
AMAZING X-MEN 1 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 2 
AMAZING X-MEN 2 
WEAPON X 2 
FACTOR X 2 
X-CALIBRE 2 
X-MAN 2 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 2 
GENERATION NEXT 2 
FACTOR X 3 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 3 
AMAZING X-MEN 3 
WEAPON X 3 
X-CALIBRE 3 
X-MAN 3 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 3 
GENERATION NEXT 3 
X UNIVERSE 1 
X UNIVERSE 2 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 4 
X-CALIBRE 4 
AGE OF APOCALYPSE: THE CHOSEN 1 
X-MAN 4 
FACTOR X 4 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 4 
GENERATION NEXT 4 
WEAPON X 4 
AMAZING X-MEN 4 
X-MEN OMEGA 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
VENOM:SINNER TAKES ALL 1 (TRISH) 
VENOM:SINNER TAKES ALL 4 (TRISH) 
VENOM:SINNER TAKES ALL 5 (TRISH) 

X-MEN PRIME 
X-FACTOR 112 
X-FACTOR 113 
X-MAN 5 
UNCANNY X-MEN 322 
X-MEN 42 
X-MEN 43 
X-MEN 44 
CABLE 21 
X-MAN 6 
X-MAN 7 


EXCALIBUR 87 
X-FORCE 44 
CABLE 22 
WOLVERINE 91 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL '95 
X-FORCE 45 
X-FORCE 46 
X-FORCE 47 
GENERATION X 5 
GENERATION X 6 
UNCANNY X-MEN 323 
UNCANNY X-MEN 324 

DC Vs. Marvel 1 
DC Vs. Marvel 2 
DC Vs. Marvel 3 

Generation Hex 1 
Super Soldier Man of War 1 
Super Soldier 1 
The Magnetic Men featuring Magneto 1 
Magneto and the Magnetic Men 1 
X-Patrol 1 
The Exciting X-Patrol 1 
JLX 1 
Bullets and Braclets 1 
Amazon 1 
JLX Unleashed 1 
Doctor Strangefate 1 
Speed Demon 1 
Assassins 1 
Legends of the Dark Claw 1 
Bat-Thing 1 
Dark Claw Adventures 1 
Thorion of the New Asgods 1 
Iron Lantern 1 
Spider-Boy 1 
Spider-Boy Team-Up 1 
Challengers of the Fantastic 1 
Bruce Wayne Agent of SHIELD 1 
Lobo, the Duck 1 

DC Vs. Marvel 4 


VENOM: ALONG CAME A SPIDER 1-3 (TRISH TILBY) 
VENOM: THE HUNTED 1 (TRISH TILBY) 
WOLVERINE 92 
WOLVERINE/GAMBIT: VICTIMS LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
HULK 434 (wolverine) 
DAREDEVIL 352 

X-MEN ANNUAL '95 (First Story) 

AVENGERS: THE CROSSING (BEAST) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 325 
X-MEN 45 


UNCANNY X-MEN 326 
GENERATION X 7 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 8 
X-Men 95 (Second Story Flashback) 
EXCALIBUR 88 
X-men 95 (Second Story) 
EXCALIBUR 89 
EXCALIBUR 90 
WOLVERINE: KNIGHT OF TERRA 

AVENGERS 389 (LILANDRA) 
STARJAMMERS LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
X-MEN: BOOKS OF ASKANI 
ASKANI'SON LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
CABLE 23 
CABLE 24 
CABLE 25 
X-MAN 8 
X-MAN 9 
X-MAN 10 
CABLE 26 
CABLE 27 
CABLE 28 
X-FACTOR 114 
X-FACTOR 115 
WOLVERINE 93 

BLACK SEPTEMBER INFINITY 
NIGHTMAN VS. WOLVERINE 0 
NIGHTMAN / GAMBIT 1-3 
EXILES INFINITY 
EXILES 1 
EXILES VS. X-MEN 0 
THE PHOENIX RESSURECTION 0 
THE PHOENIX RESSURECTION GENESIS 1 
THE PHOENIX RESSURECTION REVELATIONS 1 
THE PHOENIX RESSURECTION: AFTERMATH 1 
EXILES 2-5 
EXILES 6-10 
EXILES 11 
ULTRAFORCE 12 
ULTRAVERSE UNLIMITED 2 

WOLVERINE 94 
GENERATION X 8 
GENERATION X 9 
WOLVERINE 95 
WOLVERINE 96 
Ghost Rider 67 (Wolverine & Gambit) 
Ghost Rider 68 (Wolverine & Gambit) 
X-MEN & CLAN DESTINE 1-2 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 9 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 95 
GENERATION X ANNUAL '95 
GENERATION X 10 
GENERATION X 11 
GENERATION X 1994 San Diego comic con exclusive 

EXCALIBUR 91 
EXCALIBUR 92 
EXCALIBUR 93 
EXCALIBUR 94 
X-MAN 11 
X-MAN 12 
EXCALIBUR 95 

X-FORCE 48 

Marvel Fanfare vol.2 #4 (Dazzler, Longshot, Mojo II, Spiral) 
Marvel Fanfare vol.2 #5 (Dazzler, Longshot, Mojo II, Spiral) 


X-MEN 46 
X-MEN 47 
UNCANNY X-MEN 327 (JOSEPH) 
SPIDER-MAN TEAM UP 1 (X-MEN) 
AGE OF INNOCENCE 1 (BEAST CAMEO) 
AVENGERS 398 (LILANDRA) 
SPIDER-MAN TEAM UP 5 (GAMBIT) 


X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNUAL 95 
X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNUAL 95 (SECOND STORY) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 328 
SABRETOOTH: IN THE RED ZONE 1 

X-FORCE 49 
X-FORCE 50 
X-FORCE 51 

X-MEN 48 
X-MEN 49 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 2 (X-Treme, Eric the red) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 3 (X-Treme, Eric the red) 
X-FACTOR 116 
X-FACTOR 117 
X-FACTOR 118 
DOC SAMSON 1 
DOC SAMSON 2 
X-FACTOR 119 
DOC SAMSON 4 
X-FACTOR 120 
X-FACTOR 121 
X-FACTOR 122 
X-FACTOR 123 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 237 (GRAYDON CREED) 
X-FACTOR 124 
PUNISHER VOL.3 #7 (Bridge becomes head of SHIELD) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 329 
UNCANNY X-MEN 330 
ARCHANGEL 1 
CABLE 29 
X-MAN 13 
BLACK KNIGHT: EXODUS 
CABLE 30 
X-MAN 14 
CABLE 31 

X-Men: Brood: Day of Wrath 1 
X-Men: Brood: Day of Wrath 2 

X-MEN 50 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 10 
UNCANNY X-MEN 331 
X-FORCE 52 
X-FORCE 53 
X-FORCE 54 

WOLVERINE 97 
WOLVERINE 98 
WOLVERINE 99 
WOLVERINE 100 
CABLE 32 

FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 1 
FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 2 
FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 3 
FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 4 
UNCANNY X-MEN 332 
WOLVERINE 101 
WOLVERINE 102 
WOLVERINE 102.5 (LONGSHOT, DAZZLER, MOJO II) 
WOLVERINE 103 

X-MEN 51 
X-MEN 52 

GENERATION X 12 
GENERATION X 13 
GENERATION X 14 
GENERATION X 15 
GENERATION X 16 
GENERATION X 17 


UNCANNY X-MEN 333 
X-FORCE 55 
X-FORCE 56 
STORM 1 
STORM 2 
STORM 3 
STORM 4 

EXCALIBUR 96 
EXCALIBUR 97 
EXCALIBUR 98 

GREEN GOBLIN 10 (ARCADE) 


CABLE 33 
X-MEN 53 
EXCALIBUR 99 
X-MAN 15 
X-MAN 16 
X-MAN 17 


ONSLAUGHT: 
UNCANNY X-MEN 334 
FANTASTIC FOUR 414 
X-MEN 54 
AVENGERS 400 
ONSLAUGHT: X-MEN 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 335 
WOLVERINE 104 
EXCALIBUR 100 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 11 
AVENGERS 401 
FANTASTIC FOUR 415 
X-FACTOR 125 
X-FACTOR 126 
X-MEN 55 
EXCALIBUR 101 
CABLE 34 
HULK 444 
X-MAN 18 
X-FORCE 57 
UNCANNY X-MEN 336 
CABLE 35 
X-MAN 19 
X-FORCE 58 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 12 
GENERATION X 18 
GENERATION X 19 
AMAZING SPIDER MAN 415 
GREEN GOBLIN 12 
SPIDER-MAN 72 
THOR 502 
WOLVERINE 105 
FANTASTIC FOUR 416 
IRON MAN 332 
HULK 445 
AVENGERS 402 
X-MEN 56 
PUNISHER VOL. 3 #11 (BRIDGE) 
ONSLAUGHT: MARVEL UNIVERSE 1 
(X-MEN : THE ROAD TO ONSLAUGHT) 

JUGGERNAUT (ONESHOT) 
Second Story in X-Men Unlimited #13 (Juggernaut, Gomurr) 
MAVERICK (ONESHOT) 
CABLE 36 
GENERATION X 20 
UNCANNY X-MEN 337 
EXCALIBUR 102 
X-MEN 57 
ONSLAUGHT: EPILOGUE 

MAGNETO LS 1-4 
WOLVERINE 106 
ELEKTRA 1 
ELEKTRA 3 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 96 (BOTH STORIES) 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 96 
XSE 1 
XSE 2 
BISHOP: XSE 1 
BISHOP: XSE 2 
BISHOP: XSE 3 
XSE 3 
XSE 4 

GENERATION X 21 (Beast) 

SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN 10 (Jean and Scott) 
SPIDER-MAN 73 
SPIDER-MAN 74 

Daredevil 355 (Pyro) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 338 
X-MEN 58 

EXCALIBUR 103 
PRYDE AND WISDOM 1 
PRYDE AND WISDOM 2 
PRYDE AND WISDOM 3 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1996 (2ND STORY) (Kitty Pryde) 

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1996 (5TH STORY) (X-Men) 

VENOM: TOOTH AND CLAW (VS. WOLVERINE) 1 
VENOM: TOOTH AND CLAW (VS. WOLVERINE) 2 
VENOM: TOOTH AND CLAW (VS. WOLVERINE) 3 

UNCANNY X-MEN 339 
X-MEN 59 
UNCANNY X-MEN 340 
MARVEL VALENTINE SPECIAL 1 (5TH STORY) LAST PAGE ONLY (REST HAPPENS DURING CYKE & PHOENIX LS) 

GENERATION X 22 
GENERATION X 23 
GENERATION X UNDERGROUND SPECIAL 1 
GENERATION X ANNUAL 96 
HULK ANNUAL 97 (ARTIE, LEECH, FRANKLIN RICHARDS, others) (Second Story only) 

DC/MARVEL: ALL ACCESS 1 
DC/MARVEL: ALL ACCESS 2 
DC/MARVEL: ALL ACCESS 3 
DC/MARVEL: ALL ACCESS 4 

X-MEN ANNUAL 96 
X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNNUAL 96 (First Story) 
WOLVERINE  (WOLVERINE, CABLE) 
X-FORCE 59 
X-FORCE 60 
X-FORCE 61 


WOLVERINE 107 
WOLVERINE 108 
WOLVERINE 109 
WOLVERINE: DAYS OF FUTURE PAST 1-3 
WOLVERINE 110 
WOLVERINE: BLACK RIO 
MARVEL FANFARE VOL.2 #2 (WOLVERINE, VINDICATOR) 
MARVEL FANFARE VOL.2 #6 (SABRETOOTH, X-FACTOR) 
SABRETOOTH AND MYSTIQUE LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
PUNISHER vol.3 12-15 
X-FACTOR 127 
X-FACTOR 128 
X-FACTOR 129 
X-FACTOR 130 
PUNISHER 16 
PUNISHER 17 
X-MEN 60 
X-MEN 61 
Venom: On Trial 1 (Bastion) 
VENOM: ON TRIAL 2 
VENOM: ON TRIAL 3 
HULK 454 
HULK 455 
HULK 456 
HULK 457 


X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNNUAL 96 (Second Story) 
X-FORCE 62 
BEAST LS 1 
BEAST LS 2 
BEAST LS 3 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 13 (Silver Surfer/ Juggernaut) 
SILVER SURFER VOL.3 #123 
X-MEN ANNUAL 97 

X-MAN 20 
X-MAN 21 
X-MAN 22 
X-MAN 23 
X-MAN ANNUAL 96 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 420 
X-MAN 24 
X-MAN 25 

EXCALIBUR 104 
EXCALIBUR 105 
TALES OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE 
BUG 1 
CABLE 37 
CABLE 38 
CABLE 39 
CABLE 40 (Douglock, moira) 
EXCALIBUR 106 
CABLE 41 (Bishop, Storm) 
CABLE 42 (Storm) 

Iron Man Vol.2 #6 (Onslaught) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL.2 #6 
CABLE 43 (Cyclops, Jean, Madelyne) 
CABLE 44 
DOMINO LS 1 
DOMINO LS 2 
DOMINO LS 3 

X-FACTOR 131 
X-FACTOR 132 
X-FACTOR 133 
X-FACTOR 134 
X-FACTOR 135 
STRONG GUY REBORN 1 

EXCALIBUR 107 
X-MAN 26 
EXCALIBUR 108 
EXCALIBUR 109 
EXCALIBUR 110 
X-MAN 27 
X-MAN 28 
X-MAN 29 
X-Man 30 (First few pages only) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 425 

ELEKTRA 5 (FATALE) 
ELEKTRA 7 (FATALE) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 14 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 97 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 15 (MAVERICK, Iceman, Wolverine, Cyclops, Beast) 

DEADPOOL 1 (REG SERIES) 
Deadpool 2-5 (Siryn) 
Deadpool 6-7 
DAREDEVIL/DEADPOOL ANNUAL 97 
DEADPOOL 8 
DEADPOOL 9 



WOLVERINE 111 
WOLVERINE 112 
WOLVERINE 113 
WOLVERINE 114 

X-FORCE & CABLE ANNUAL 97 
EXCALIBUR 111 
EXCALIBUR 112 
COLOSSUS ONE SHOT 
EXCALIBUR 113 
EXCALIBUR 114 (Pages 1-13) 
NEW MUTANTS: TRUTH OR DEATH 1-3 
X-FORCE 63 
X-FORCE 64 
X-FORCE 65 
X-FORCE 66 

GENERATION X ANNUAL '97 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 16 
GENERATION X 24 
Second Story in Generation X 27 (Cookin with Jubilee) 
GENERATION X 25 
DAYDREAMERS LIMITED SERIES 1-3 


SABRETOOTH: BACK TO NATURE 
X-FACTOR 136 
X-FACTOR 137 
X-FACTOR 138 
X-FACTOR 139 

IMPERIAL GUARD 1 (PAGES 1-12) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 341 
IMPERIAL GUARD 1 (PAGES 13-22) 
IMPERIAL GUARD 2 
IMPERIAL GUARD 3 
Hulk Annual 97 (Gladiator) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 342 
UNCANNY X-MEN 343 
UNCANNY X-MEN 344 
UNCANNY X-MEN 345 
GENERATION X 26 
X-FORCE 67 (Angel) 

GENERATION X 27 
CRIMSON DAWN LIMITED SEIRES 1-4 (Psylocke & Angel) 

X-MEN 62 
X-MEN 63 
X-MEN 64 
GENERATION X 28 (FIRST STORY) 
Generation X 28 (Second Story) 

X-MEN 65 
UNCANNY X-MEN 346 

UNCANNY X-MEN 347 
WOLVERINE 115 
X-FORCE 68 
X-MEN 66 
UNCANNY X-MEN 348 
WOLVERINE 116 
CABLE 45 
CABLE 46 
CABLE 47 
X-FORCE 69 
X-FORCE 70 
GENERATION X 29 
GENERATION X 30 
GENERATION X 31 
UNCANNY X-MEN 349 
X-MEN 67 
X-MEN 68 
UNCANY X-MEN 350 
WOLVERINE 117 
X-MAN 30 
X-MEN 69 
WOLVERINE 118 

SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN 18 (SPIDER-MANS IN THIS PERIOD MIGHT NEED TO BE MOVED AROUND A BIT) 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN 19 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN 20 

SPIDER-MAN 84 (Juggernaut) 
X-MEN 70 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 18 
Gambit 1/2 
GAMBIT (SECOND) LIMITED SERIES 1-4 

MARVEL TEAM-UP 1 (1990'S SERIES) (Skin, Husk, Chamber) 


X-MAN 31 
X-MAN 32 
X-MAN 33 
X-Man 97 
X-Man: All Saints Day 

DEADPOOL 10 
DEADPOOL 11 
BABYS FIRST DEADPOOL BOOK 1 
X-FORCE 71 
DEADPOOL 12 (WARPATH AND SIRYN) 
X-FORCE 72 
DEADPOOL 13 
X-FORCE 73 
X-FORCE 74 
DEADPOOL 14 
DEADPOOL 15 


CABLE 48 
CABLE 49 
CABLE 50 
CABLE 51 
CABLE 52 
CABLE 53 
CABLE 54 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY 513 (JEAN AND SCOTT, AND HANK) 
X-MEN 71 


DAREDEVIL 368 (Omega rEd) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 351 
DAREDEVIL 371 (X-MAN, Cecila) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 352 
ELEKTRA 10 (Wolverine) 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 429 (X-man, Beast, Wolverine) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 17 (Angel, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Sebastian Shaw) 

THUNDERBOLTS 6 
THUNDERBOLTS 8 

EXCALIBUR 114 (SECOND HALF) 
KITTY PRYDE: AGENT OF SHIELD LS 1-3 
THUNDERBOLTS 10 

WOLVERINE annual 97 

X-MEN 72 

ELEKTRA 14 (WOLVERINE) 
ELEKTRA 15 (YUKIO) 
VENOM: FINALE 1 (TRISH) 
VENOM: FINALE 2 (TRISH) 
ELEKTRA 19 (TRISH) 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED 22 (TRISH) 


WOLVERINE 119 
WOLVERINE 120 
WOLVERINE 121 
WOLVERINE 122 

X-FACTOR 140 
X-FACTOR 141 

X-FACTOR 142 
X-FACTOR 143 
X-FACTOR 144 
X-FACTOR 145 
X-FACTOR 146 
X-FACTOR 147 
X-FACTOR 148 

ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 # 1-5 
MAVERICK 1(REGULAR SERIES) 
MAVERICK 2 
MAVERICK 3 (ALPHA FLIGHT) 
MAVERICK 4 (Wolverine) 
MAVERICK 5 
MAVERICK 6 (Sabretooth) 
MAVERICK 7 (Sabretooth) 
MAVERICK 8 
MAVERICK 9 
MAVERICK 10 
MAVERICK 11 
MAVERICK 12 

LONGSHOT ONE-SHOT 


GENERATION X 32 

GENERATION X 33 
EXCALIBUR 115 
GENERATION X 34 
GENERATION X 35 
GENERATION X 36 
GENERATION X 37 
GENERATION X 38 
GENERATION X 39 
GENERATION X 40 
GENERATION X 1/2 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 437 
Spider-Man 94 (Sebastian Shaw) 


QUICKSILVER 1 
QUICKSILVER 2 
QUICKSILVER 3 
HEROES FOR HIRE 8 
HEROES FOR HIRE 9 
HEROES FOR HIRE 10 (DEADPOOL) 
HEROES FOR HIRE 11 (DEADPOOL) 

IRON MAN VOL.3 #1 (ANGEL AND PSYLOCKE) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL.3 #1 (DEATHSTRIKE) 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #1 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #2 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #3 
THUNDERBOLTS 11 (QUICKSILVER) 

THUNDERBOLTS 12 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #4 

X-MAN 34 
X-MAN 35 
X-MAN 36 
X-MAN 37 
X-MAN 38 


X-FORCE 75 
X-FORCE 76 
PINT SIZED X-BABIES 

EXCALIBUR 116 
EXCALIBUR 117 
EXCALIBUR 118 
EXCALIBUR 119 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 19 


UNCANNY X-MEN 353 


CABLE & MACHINE MAN ANNUAL '98 
MACHINE MAN & BASTION ANNUAL '98 

UNCANNY X-MEN 354 


ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. 2 #6 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. 2 #7 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #8 

UNCANNY X-MEN 355 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #9 

GENERATION X 41 

CABLE 55 
CABLE 56 
X-FORCE 77 
X-FORCE 78 
X-FORCE 79 
X-FORCE 80 
X-FORCE 81 


QUICKSILVER 4 
QUICKSILVER 5 
QUICKSILVER 6 
X-MEN 73 
X-MEN 74 
EXCALIBUR 120 
X-MEN 75 
EXCALIBUR 121 
WOLVERINE 123 
WOLVERINE 124 
WOLVERINE 125 
WOLVERINE 126 
WOLVERINE 127 
WOLVERINE 128 
WOLVERINE 129 
WOLVERINE 130 

X-MEN 76 



UNCANNY X-MEN 356 
UNCANNY X-MEN 357 
THUNDERBOLTS 15 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #6 (Bridge) 
THUNDERBOLTS 16 

THUNDERBOLTS 18 

QUICKSILVER 7 
QUICKSILVER 8 
QUICKSILVER 9 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 7 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) 
EXCALIBUR 122 
EXCALIBUR 123 
X-MAN 39 
X-MAN 40 

X-FORCE 82 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 20 
X-MEN 77 
X-MEN 78 
X-MAN 41 
X-MAN & Hulk ANNUAL 1998 

X-FACTOR 149 

CEREBROS GUIDE TO THE X-MEN 


UNCANNY X-MEN 358 
TEAM X 2000 #1 
EXCALIBUR 124 
EXCALIBUR 125 
UNION JACK L.S. 1-3 
CABLE 57 
CABLE 58 
GENREATION X 42 
GENERATION X 43 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #7 
CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL.3 #8 
QUICKSILVER 10 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #7 
UNCANNY X-MEN 359 

FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #6 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #7 (PHOENIX) 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #8 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #10-16 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2/ Inhumans annual 1998 
SUNFIRE & BIG HERO 6 L.S. 1-3 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 # 17-18 

AVENGERS VOL.3 #8 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #9 (MOSES MAGNUM) 




UNCANNY X-MEN & FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 1998 
X-MEN 79 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 21 
HEROES FOR HIRE 15 
QUICKSILVER 11 
HEROES FOR HIRE 16 
QUICKSILVER 12 
HEROES FOR HIRE & QUICKSILVER ANNUAL 1998 
QUICKSILVER 13 

HEROES FOR HIRE 17 
CABLE 59 
CABLE 60 
CABLE 61 
CABLE 62 
DEADPOOL 16 
DEADPOOL 17 
DEADPOOL & DEATH ANNUAL 1998 
DEADPOOL 18 
DEADPOOL 19 
DEADPOOL 20 
DEADPOOL TEAM-UP 1 
DEADPOOL 21 
DEADPOOL #0 
DEADPOOL 22 (CABLE) 
ENCYCLOPAEDIA DEADPOOLICA 1 
DEADPOOL 23 
DEADPOOL 24 
DEADPOOL 25 


MUTANT X 1-8 
MUTANT X ANNUAL 99 
MUTANT X 9-13 
MUTANT X ANNUAL 2000 
MUTANT X 14-28 
MUTANT X 29-31 
MUTANT X ANNUAL 2001 
MUTANT X 32 


X-FORCE 83 
X-FORCE 84 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #10 (Pressgang) 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #11 (val) 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #12 (Val) 

FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #13 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #14 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #15 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #14 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #15 

FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #16 (MARGALI) 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #20 (MARGALI) 


UNCANNY X-MEN 360 
X-MEN 80 
X-MEN 1/2 

GENERATION X 44 
GENERATION X 45 
GENERATION X 46 
GENERATION X 47 
X-FORCE 85 
X-FORCE & CHAMPIONS ANNUAL 1998 
X-MAN 42 
X-MAN 43 
X-MAN 44 
UNCANNY X-MEN 361 
X-MEN 81 
WOLVERINE 131 
HEROES FOR HIRE 18 (WOLVERINE) 
HEROES FOR HIRE 19 (WOLVERINE) 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 22 
AVENGERS VOL. 3 #10 (X-MEN) 
AVENGERS FOREVER 1 (BEAST FB) 
WOLVERINE 132 
X-MEN & Dr. Doom ANNUAL 1998 
UNCANNY X-MEN 362 
X-MEN 82 
UNCANNY X-MEN 363 
X-MEN 83 
UNCANNY X-MEN 364 
X-MEN 84 

X-MEN: LIBERATORS L.S 1-4 

AVENGERS 1999 ANNUAL 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #14 (BEAST) 

WOLVERINE 133 
WOLVERINE 134 
WOLVERINE 135 
WOLVERINE 136 
WOLVERINE 137 
WOLVERINE 138 
X-FORCE 86 
X-MAN 45 
X-MAN 46 
CABLE 63 
X-MAN 47 
WOLVERINE 139 
UNCANNY X-MEN 365 
CABLE 64 
GAMBIT 1 (REGULAR SERIES) 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #19-20 

X-MEN 85 
X-MEN UNIVERSE 1 (1999 PREVIEW SPECTACULAR) 

GAMBIT 2 
GAMBIT 3 

X-MEN: THE MAGNETO WAR 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 366 
X-MEN 86 
UNCANNY X-MEN 367 
X-MEN 87 

CABLE 65 
CABLE 66 
CABLE 67 
CABLE 68 
CABLE 69 
CABLE 70 
NEW ETERNALS (APOCALYPSE) 


GAMBIT 4 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 23 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN VOL.2 #3 (Iceman) 
PETER PARKER SPIDER MAN 3 (Iceman) 
PETER PARKER SPIDER MAN 4 (MARROW) 
GAMBIT 5 

THUNDERBOLTS 21 
THUNDERBOLTS 22 
THUNDERBOLTS 25 
THUNDERBOLTS 26 



X-FORCE 87 
X-FORCE 88 
X-FORCE 89 
X-FORCE 90 

GENERATION X 48 
GENERATION X VS. DRACULA ANNUAL 1998 
GENERATION X HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1 

SLINGERS 9 (NANNY AND ORPHAN-MAKER) 

GENERATION X 49 
X-MAN 48 
X-MAN 49 

GENERATION X 50 
GENERATION X 51 

X-MAN 50 
X-MAN 51 
X-MAN 52 


DEADPOOL 26 
DEADPOOL 27 (Kitty, Wolverine) 



UNCANY X-MEN 368 
X-MEN 88 
THUNDERBOLTS 27-30 (ANGEL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 369 
MAGNETO REX 1-3 
X-MEN 89 
UNCANNY X-MEN 370 
X-MEN 90 
UNCANNY X-MEN 371 
X-MEN 91 
X-MEN ANNUAL 1999 


GENEREATION X 52 
WOLVERINE 140 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 24 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER (MARVEL KNIGHTS) L.S. 1-4 

X-FORCE 91 
X-FORCE 92 
X-FORCE 93 
GENERATION X 53 
GENERATION X 54 
GENERATION X 55 
GENERATION X 56 


WOLVERINE 141 
WOLVERINE 142 
WOLVERINE 143 

GENERATION X 57 

GENERATION X 58 
GENERATION X ANNUAL 1999 

WOLVERINE 144 
HULK VOL.3 #7 
HULK VOL.3 #8 

X-FORCE 94 
X-FORCE 95 
X-Men Unlimited 24 (Second Story) 

X-FORCE ANNUAL 1999 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 1999 
X-FORCE 96 
X-FORCE 97 
X-FORCE 98 
CABLE ANNUAL 1999 
CABLE 71 
GAMBIT 6 
GAMBIT 7 
GAMBIT ANNUAL 1999 

DEADPOOL 28 
DEADPOOL 29 
DEADPOOL 30-33 

CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS II 1-5 
UNCANNY X-MEN 372 
X-MAN 53 
X-MAN 54 
X-MAN 55 
X-MEN 92 

GAMBIT 8 
GAMBIT 9 

ASTONISHING XMEN (VOL.2) 1 
ASTONISHING XMEN(VOL.2) 2 
ASTONISHING XMEN (VOL.2) 3 



WARLOCK VOL.3 #1-4 

GALACTUS, THE DEVOURER 5-6 

WARLOCK VOL.3 #5-9 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN2 #11 (BLOB) 

IRON MAN VOL.3 #21 
THOR VOL.3 #17 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #22 
PETER PARKER SPIDER MAN 11 
JUGGERNAUT: THE EIGHTH DAY 1 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #24 (XAVIER) 


X-51 #0 
X-51 #1 
X-51 #2 
X-51 #3 
X-51 #4 
X-51 #5 
X-51 #6 


BISHOP (REG. SERIES) 1 
BISHOP 2 
BISHOP 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 373 
UNCANNY X-MEN 374 
X-MEN 93 
X-MEN 94 
UNCANNY X-MEN 375 
X-MEN 95 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 25 
GENERATION X 59 
New warriors VOL. 2 #5 (EMMA FROST) 
GAMBIT 10 
X-BABIES REBORN 1 
X-MAN 56 
X-MAN 57 
X-MAN 58 
WOLVERINE 145 
CABLE 72 
CABLE 73 
CABLE 74 
DEADPOOL 34 
DEADPOOL 35 
DEADPOOL 36 
DEADPOOL 37 
BISHOP 4 
BISHOP 5 
BISHOP 6 
BISHOP 7 
BISHOP 8 
UNCANNY X-MEN 376 
CABLE 75 
X-MAN 59 
X-MEN 96 
WOLVERINE 146 
WOLVERINE 147 
X-MAN 60 
UNCANY X-MEN 377 
X-MEN 1999 YEARBOOK 

CABLE 76 
X-MEN 97 

X-51 #7 
X-51 #8 

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 1999 
UNCANNY X-MEN 378 
CABLE 77 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 26 
WOLVERINE 148 
X-MEN 98 

WOLVERINE ANNUAL 1999 (FIRST STORY) (Deadpool) 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 1999 (SECOND STORY) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 26 (SECOND STORY) (WOLVERINE) 

AVENGERS VOL.3 # 24 
AVENGERS VOL.3 # 25 

Inhumans vol.3 # 1 
Inhumans vol.3 # 2 (Quicksilver) 
Inhumans vol.3 # 3 (Imperial Guard) 
Inhumans vol.3 # 4 (Imperial Guard) 


GENERATION X 60 
GENERATION X 61 
GENERATION X 62 

X-FORCE 99 
Deadpool 38 (Siryn) 
X-FORCE 100 

X-MAN 61 
X-MAN 62 
GAMBIT 11 
GAMBIT 12 
GAMBIT 13 
GAMBIT 14 
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 1 
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 2 
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 3 
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 4 
GAMBIT 15 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #25 (Magneto) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 379 
CABLE 78 
X-FORCE 101 
WOLVERINE 149 
X-MEN 99 
UNCANNY X-MEN 380 
AVENGERS TWO: WONDER MAN AND THE Beast 1-3 
MAGNETO: DARK SEDUCTION 1-4 

BISHOP 9 
BISHOP 10 
BISHOP 11 
BISHOP 12 
BISHOP 13 
BISHOP 14 

GENERATION X 67 
GENERATION X 68 
GENERATION X 69 
GENERATION X 70 

DEADPOOL 39 
DEADPOOL 40 
DEADPOOL 41 
DEADPOOL 42 
DEADPOOL 43 
DEADPOOL 44 
BLACK PANTHER 23 (DEADPOOL) 
DEADPOOL 45 

X-MEN: REVOLUTION: GENESIS EDITION 

CABLE 79 
CABLE 80 
CABLE 81 
CABLE 82 
CABLE 83 
CABLE 84 

THUNDERBOLTS 31 
THUNDERBOLTS 32 
THUNDERBOLTS 34 
THUNDERBOLTS 36 
THUNDERBOLTS 37 
THUNDERBOLTS annual 2000 


THUNDERBOLTS 48-50 
CITIZEN V AND THE V-BATTALION 1 (NO X-CHAR) 
CITIZEN V AND THE V-BATTALION 2 (SHADOW KING) 
CITIZEN V AND THE V-BATTALION 3 (NO X-CHAR) 


THUNDERBOLTS 53 

GENERATION X 63 
GENERATION X 64 
GENERATION X 65 
GENERATION X 66 

GAMBIT 16 
GAMBIT 17 
GAMBIT 18 
GAMBIT 19 
GAMBIT ANNUAL 2000 
GAMBIT 20 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 27 
X-MEN: BLACK SON 1-5 
X-MEN: MAGIK 1-4 
WOLVERINE 150 
WOLVERINE 151 
WOLVERINE 152 
WOLVERINE 153 
IRON FIST/WOLVERINE 1-4 

UNCANNY X-MEN 381 
UNCANNY X-MEN 382 
UNCANNY X-MEN 383 



X-FORCE 102 
X-FORCE: ROUGH CUT 
X-FORCE 103 
X-FORCE 104 
X-FORCE 105 



X-FORCE 106 
X-FORCE 107 
X-FORCE 108 
X-FORCE 109 

X-MEN 100 
X-MEN 101 
X-MEN 102 
X-MEN 103 
X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2000 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 384 
X-MEN 104 
UNCANNY X-MEN 385 
X-MEN FOREVER 1 
X-MEN FOREVER 2 
X-MEN FOREVER 3 
X-MEN FOREVER 4 
X-MEN FOREVER 5 
X-MEN FOREVER 6 
GAMBIT 21 
X-MEN 105 
X-MEN 106 
UNCANNY X-MEN 386 
X-Men Annual 2000 
GAMBIT 22 
X-MAN 67 
X-MAN 68 
X-MAN 69 
X-MAN 70 

X-MAN 63 
X-MAN 64 
X-MAN 65 
X-MAN 66 

X-MAN 71 
X-MAN 72 
X-MAN 73 
X-MAN 74 
X-MAN 75 


Maximum Security: 
MAXIMUM SECURITY: DANGEROUS PLANET 
MAXIMUM SECURITY 1 
THOR 30 (no X-Char) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 387 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN2 #24 (NO X-CHAR) 
BLACK PANTHER 25 (STORM) 
IRON MAN 35 
CAPTAIN AMERICA3 #36 ( NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL5 #12 (NO X-CHAR) 
HULK3 #21 (NO X-CHAR) 
PETER PARKER SPIDER-MAN #24 (NO X-CHAR) 
THUNDERBOLTS 45 
BISHOP 15 
X-MEN 107 
MAXIMUM SECURITY 2 
MARVEL KNIGHTS 6 (NO X-CHAR) 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 29 
GAMBIT 23 
AVENGERS 35 
MAXIMUM SECURITY 3 


CABLE 85 
CABLE 86 
WOLVERINE 154 
WOLVERINE 155 
WOLVERINE 156 
WOLVERINE 157 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 2000 
SPIDER-MAN / MARROW ONE-SHOT 

HELLCAT 1-3 
X-FORCE 110 
X-FORCE 111 
X-FORCE 112 
X-FORCE 113 
BLACK PANTHER 26 (Storm) 
BLACK PANTHER 27 (Storm) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 388 
CABLE 87 
BISHOP 16 
X-MEN 108 


BLACK PANTHER 28 (MAGNETO) 
X-FORCE 114 
X-FORCE 115 
GENERATION X 71 
GENERATION X 72 
GENERATION X 73 
GENERATION X 74 
WOLVERINE 158 
GAMBIT 24 
UNCANNY X-MEN 389 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 33 

DEADPOOL 46 
DEADPOOL 47 
DEADPOOL 48 
DEADPOOL 49 


CABLE 88 
WOLVERINE 159 
WOLVERINE 160 
WOLVERINE 161 
EXACLIBUR: SWORD OF POWER L.S. 1-4 
X-MEN 109 
X-MEN ANNUAL 2000 
Hmmn, there must be some kind of posting space limit, here's the rest of the list.... 

Dave H 


X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 1 
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 2 
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 3 
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 4 
CABLE 89 
CABLE 90 
CABLE 91 
CABLE 92 
CABLE 93 
CABLE 94 
CABLE 95 

THUNDERBOLTS 55 (OLD X-MEN FLASHBACK) 
THUNDERBOLTS 56 (BRIDGE) 

DEADPOOL 50 
DEADPOOL 51 
DEADPOOL 52 
DEADPOOL 53 
DEADPOOL 54 
DEADPOOL 55 
DEADPOOL 56 


GAMBIT 25 
X-Men: DECLASSIFIED 
UNCANNY X-MEN 390 
X-MEN 110 
UNCANNY X-MEN 391 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 32 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN VOL.2 #36 (9/11) (CYCLOPS, WOLVERINE, STORM) 
FANTASTIC FOUR (V.3) 40 (TRISH TILBY) 


X-MEN UNLIMITED 30 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 31 



WOLVERINE 162 
WOLVERINE 163 
WOLVERINE 164 
WOLVERINE 165 
WOLVERINE 166 
WOLVERINE 167 
WOLVERINE 168 
WOLVERINE 169 

GAMBIT & BISHOP: SONS OF THE ATOM ALPHA 
GAMBIT & BISHOP: SONS OF THE ATOM 1-6 

SPIDER-MAN: SWEET CHARITY 
CAPTAIN AMERICA (V.3) 50 

CABLE 96 
CABLE 97 
CABLE 98 
CABLE 99 
CABLE 100 

X-TREME X-MEN 1 
X-TREME X-MEN 2 
X-TREME X-MEN 3 
X-TREME X-MEN 4 

X-MEN 111 
UNCANNY X-MEN 392 
X-MEN 112 
UNCANNY X-MEN 393 
X-MEN 113 

THUNDERBOLTS 57 
THUNDERBOLTS 58 
UNCANNY X-MEN 394 
GENERATION X 75 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 34 
IRON MAN (VOL. 3) 37 
IRON MAN (VOL.3) 38 
X-MEN 114 
X-MEN 115 
X-MEN 116 
UNCANNY X-MEN 395 
UNCANNY X-MEN 396 
UNCANNY X-MEN 397 
UNCANNY X-MEN 398 
CYCLOPS 1 
CYCLOPS 2 
CYCLOPS 3 
CYCLOPS 4 

X-FORCE 116 
X-FORCE 117 
X-FORCE 118 
X-FORCE 119 
X-FORCE 120 

DOMINO (VOL.2) 1 
DOMINO (VOL.2) 2 
DOMINO (VOL.2) 3 
DOMINO (VOL.2) 4 

X-MEN ANNUAL 2001 

X-TREME X=MEN: SAVAGE LAND 1 
X-TREME X-MEN: SAVAGE LAND 2 
X-TREME X-MEN: SAVAGE LAND 3 
X-TREME X-MEN: SAVAGE LAND 4 

ICEMAN (VOL.2) 1 
ICEMAN (VOL.2) 2 
ICEMAN (VOL.2) 3 
ICEMAN (VOL.2) 4 
X-MEN 117 
X-MEN 118 
X-MEN 119 
X-MEN 120 
X-MEN 121 

WEAPON X: AGENT ZERO 

DEADPPOOL 57: AGENT OF WEAPON X 1 
DEADPPOOL 58: AGENT OF WEAPON X 2 
DEADPPOOL 59: AGENT OF WEAPON X 3 
DEADPPOOL 60: AGENT OF WEAPON X 4 


DEADPOOL 61: FUNERAL FOR A FREAK 1 (Siryn, Wolverine) 
DEADPOOL 62: FUNERAL FOR A FREAK 2 
DEADPOOL 63: FUNERAL FOR A FREAK 3 
DEADPOOL 64: FUNERAL FOR A FREAK 4 

X-TREME X-MEN 5 
X-TREME X-MEN 6 
X-TREME X-MEN 7 
X-TREME X-MEN 8 
X-TREME X-MEN 9 

X-MEN 122 
X-MEN 123 
X-MEN 124 
X-MEN 125 
X-MEN 126 
THE ORDER 5 
THE ORDER 6 
UNCANNY X-MEN 399 
UNCANNY X-MEN 400 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 2001 
X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001 
UNCANNY X-MEN 401 
UNCANNY X-MEN 402 
UNCANNY X-MEN 403 
UNCANNY X-MEN 404 
UNCANNY X-MEN 405 
UNCANNY X-MEN 406 
UNCANNY X-MEN 407 

MARVEL: The End 1-6 

NIGHTCRAWLER (VOL.2) 1 
NIGHTCRAWLER (VOL.2) 2 
NIGHTCRAWLER (VOL.2) 3 
NIGHTCRAWLER (VOL.2) 4 

WOLVERINE/HULK 1 
WOLVERINE/HULK 2 
WOLVERINE/HULK 3 
WOLVERINE/HULK 4 

WOLVERINE ANNUAL 2001 
WOLVERINE 170 
WOLVERINE 171 
WOLVERINE 172 
WOLVERINE 173 
WOLVERINE 174 
WOLVERINE 175 
WOLVERINE 176 

THE BROTHERHOOD 1 
THE BROTHERHOOD 2 
THE BROTHERHOOD 3 
THE BROTHERHOOD 4 
THE BROTHERHOOD 5 
THE BROTHERHOOD 6 
THE BROTHERHOOD 7 
X-FORCE 121 
X-FORCE 122 
THE BROTHERHOOD 8 
THE BROTHERHOOD 9 

Sabretooth: mary shelley overdrive 1-4 
X-FACTOR (VOL.2) Book One 
X-FACTOR (vol.2) Book Two 
X-FACTOR (vol. 2) book Three 
X-FACTOR (vol.2) book Four 

X-TREME X-MEN ANNUAL 2001 
X-TREME X-MEN 10 
X-TREME X-MEN 11 
X-TREME X-MEN 12 
X-TREME X-MEN 13 
X-TREME X-MEN 14 
X-TREME X-MEN 15 
X-TREME X-MEN 16 
X-TREME X-MEN 17 
X-TREME X-MEN 18 
X-MEN 127 
UNCANNY X-MEN 408 
UNCANNY X-MEN 409 

DEADPOOL 65 
DEADPOOL 66 

DEADPOOL 67 (DAZZLER) 
DEADPOOL 68 
DEADPOOL 69 

CABLE 101 
CABLE 102 
CABLE 103 
CABLE 104 
CABLE 105 
CABLE 106 
CABLE 107 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 35 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 36 
X-FORCE 123 
X-FORCE 124 
X-FORCE 125 
X-FORCE 126 
X-FORCE 127 
X-FORCE 128 
X-FORCE 129 

X-TREME X-MEN 19 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA 1-4 
SPIDER-MAN/WOLVERINE 1-4 
X-MEN 128 
X-MEN 129 
X-MEN 130 
X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE 1 
X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE 2 
X-TREME X-MEN 20 
X-TREME X-MEN 21 
X-TREME X-MEN 22 
X-TREME X-MEN 23 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 39 

WOLVERINE 177 
WOLVERINE 178 
WOLVERINE: NETSUKE 1-4 
X-MEN 131 
X-MEN 132 
X-MEN 133 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 37 
CHAMBER 1-4 

UNCANNY X-MEN 410 
UNCANNY X-MEN 411 
UNCANNY X-MEN 412 
UNCANNY X-MEN 413 

Deadline 1 (juggernaut) 

WOLVERINE 179 
WOLVERINE 180 
WEAPON X  

WEAPON X: KANE 
WEAPON X: WILD CHILD 
WEAPON X: MARROW 
WEAPON X: SAURON 
MUTIES 1 
MUTIES 2 
MUTIES 3 
MUTIES 4 
MUTIES 5 
MUTIES 6 

X-STATIX 1 
X-STATIX 2 
X-STATIX 3 
X-STATIX 4 
X-STATIX 5 

Punisher (marvel knights) 16-17 (wolverine) 
WOLVERINE 181 
WOLVERINE 182 
WOLVERINE 183 
WOLVERINE 184 
WOLVERINE 185 
WOLVERINE 186 
WOLVERINE 187 
WOLVERINE 188 
WOLVERINE 189 

MEKANIX 1 
MEKANIX 2 
MEKANIX 3 
MEKANIX 4 
MEKANIX 5 
MEKANIX 6 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 38 

Exiles 18 
Exiles 19 
UNCANNY X-MEN 414 
UNCANNY X-MEN 415 
UNCANNY X-MEN 416 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 40 

WEAPON X (V.2) 1 
WEAPON X (V.2) 2 
WEAPON X (V.2) 3 
WEAPON X (V.2) 4 
WEAPON X (V.2) 5 

X-STATIX 6 
X-STATIX 7 
X-STATIX 8 
X-STATIX 9 
X-STATIX 10 
WOLVERINE/DOOP 1 
WOLVERINE/DOOP 2 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 41 
X-STATIX 11 

AGENT X 1 
AGENT X 2 
AGENT X 3 
AGENT X 4 
AGENT X 5 
AGENT X 6 
AGENT X 7 
AGENT X 8 
AGENT X 9 
AGENT X 10 
AGENT X 11 
AGENT X 12 
AGENT X 13 
AGENT X 14 
AGENT X 15 

SOLDIER X 1-7 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 44 

UNCANNY X-MEN 417 
UNCANNY X-MEN 418 
UNCANNY X-MEN 419 
UNCANNY X-MEN 420 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 45 
UNCANNY X-MEN 421 
UNCANNY X-MEN 422 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 42 
UNCANNY X-MEN 423 
UNCANNY X-MEN 424 
UNCANNY X-MEN 425 
UNCANNY X-MEN 426 
EXILES 28 
EXILES 29 
EXILES 30 
WOLVERINE: XISLE 1-5 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT! 1-5 
X-STATIX 12 
SOLDIER X 8 
SOLDIER X 9 
SOLDIER X 10 
SOLDIER X 11 
SOLDIER X 12 
WEAPON X (V.2) 6 
WEAPON X (V.2) 7 
WEAPON X (V.2) 8 
WEAPON X (V.2) 9 
WEAPON X (V.2) 10 
WEAPON X (V.2) 11 
WEAPON X (V.2) 12 
WEAPON X (V.2) 13 
WEAPON X (V.2) 14 
X-MEN 134 
UNCANNY X-MEN 427 
X-STATIX 13 
X-STATIX 14 
X-STATIX 15 
X-STATIX 16 
X-STATIX 17 
X-STATIX 18 

X-MEN 135 
X-MEN 136 
X-MEN 137 
X-MEN 138 
X-TREME X-MEN 24 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 43 
UNCANNY X-MEN 429 
UNCANNY X-MEN 430 
UNCANNY X-MEN 431 
UNCANNY X-MEN 432 
UNCANNY X-MEN 433 
UNCANNY X-MEN 434 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 1 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 2 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 2 (SECOND STORY) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 435 
UNCANNY X-MEN 436 

SENTINEL 1 
SENTINEL 2 
SENTINEL 3 
SENTINEL 4 
SENTINEL 5 
SENTINEL 6 
SENTINEL 7 
SENTINEL 8 
SENTINEL 9 
SENTINEL 10 
SENTINEL 11 
SENTINEL 12 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (V.2) 57 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (V.2) 58 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 500 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 1 
X-MEN 139 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 2 
X-MEN 140 
X-MEN 141 

ALIAS 26 
ALIAS 28 (JEAN GREY) 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 3 

WOLVERINE (V.3) 1 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 2 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 3 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 4 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 5 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 6 

X-TREME X-MEN 25 
X-TREME X-MEN 26 
X-TREME X-MEN 27 
X-TREME X-MEN 28 
X-TREME X-MEN 29 
X-TREME X-MEN 30 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 4 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 5 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 6 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 7 
X-TREME X-MEN 31 
X-TREME X-MEN 32 
X-TREME X-MEN 33 
X-TREME X-MEN 34 
X-TREME X-MEN 35 
MYSTIQUE 1 
MYSTIQUE 2 
MYSTIQUE 3 
MYSTIQUE 4 
MYSTIQUE 5 
MYSTIQUE 6 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 8 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS 1-4 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 9 
UNCANNY X-MEN 438 
UNCANNY X-MEN 439 
UNCANNY X-MEN 440 
UNCANNY X-MEN 441 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 10 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 11 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 12 

X-TREME X-MEN 36 
X-TREME X-MEN 37 
X-TREME X-MEN 38 
X-TREME X-MEN 39 
MYSTIQUE 7 
MYSTIQUE 8 
MYSTIQUE 9 
MYSTIQUE 10 
MYSTIQUE 11 
MYSTIQUE 12 
MYSTIQUE 13 
X-MEN 142 
X-MEN 143 
X-MEN 144 
X-MEN 145 
X-MEN 146 
X-TREME X-MEN 40 
X-TREME X-MEN 41 
X-TREME X-MEN 42 
X-TREME X-MEN 43 
X-TREME X-MEN 44 
X-TREME X-MEN 45 
X-MEN 147 
X-MEN 148 
X-MEN 149 
X-MEN 150 
UNCANNY X-MEN 442 
UNCANNY X-MEN 443 
X-TREME X-MEN 46 
NEW MUTANTS 13 
X-MEN 151 
X-MEN 152 
X-MEN 153 
X-MEN 154 
X-MEN 155 
X-MEN 156 
UNCANNY X-MEN 444 

X-STATIX 19 
X-STATIX 20 

DISTRICT X 1

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Posted: 09 Nov 2004 11:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

David, 

I'm currently analyzing Secret Defenders for this week's update, and noticed a little glitch in your X-Men reading order. You currently have Secret Defenders 18 and 19 shortly after UX 297. I think that's too early. 

In Secret Defenders 18, Warren and Bobby are discussing the stress that Professor X has been under recently, including Illyana's death, the Legacy Virus, and the establishment of "the new academy," which I took to be Generation X, which would place it after the Phalanx Covenant. 

I've currently placed SECDEF 18 and 19 immediately after Phalanx. Let me know if that presents a problem. 


watching: mary tyler moore show

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Posted: 10 Nov 2004 12:07 am    
By Dhall

Russ, 
You are correct, Sec Def 18 and 19 must go later than where I had them. I got 19 and placed it where I did, and then got 18 and slotted it in. 
From dialogue in 18, this must come either right before Phalanx, (when Xavier is planning a new school) or more likely, right after it. I'm moving it on my list to between UX 318 and 319 for now. 

That also makes more sense in terms of publishing order. (Aug and Sept 1994.) 

Dave H.

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Thread 61

Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:14 pm    Post subject: Alphabetizing numerical titles?
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I've been going through my comic collection and noticed some discrepancies in the way I deal with alphabetizing -- specifically comics with numbers or punctuation marks in them. So I thought I'd get some feedback from all of you: 

Do numbers get alphabetized *before* letters? After letters? Or placed as if the number was spelled out? 

Does X-51 come before the rest of the X's? After? Or do you consider it to read "X-Fifty-One", and alphabetize it between X-Factor and X-Force? 

What about "2099 Unlimited"? Is it the first thing in your collection, before the "A" books? or is it filed under TW for "Twenty-Ninety-Nine"? 


What about books with dashes in the title: 

Which would come first: "X-Men" or "Xena"? 

Do you consider "Super-Villain Team-Up" to be spelled SUPERV or SUPER- ? 


What about punctuation marks: 

Does "G.I. Joe" come before or after "Gambit"? 

Should one count the slash mark in "X-Men / Brood" when alphabetizing? 


What about the minor words in the title, like "the", "of the", or "and"? Obviously most of ignore any "the" at the beginning -- "the Avengers" and "the Mighty Thor" don't get filed under T. 

But what about minor words later in the title? Does "X-Men *and the* Micronauts" come before or after "X-Men Forever"? 


Thanks ... any feedback or opinions would be appreciated. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Jeph, how does your database or word processing software (or whatever you use to inventory your comics) organize an alphabetical list? If I were you, I'd just file the comics in whatever order the software lists them. Then your sorted computer list serves as your physical inventory. Would that be a problem?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:34 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Depends on what works best for you ultimately.  

Most computers will alphabetize things by numbers first, then the alphabet. So 2099 would be before Avengers. Small words like "and" and "the" should also be ignored, but computers often don't recognize the distinction and would run X-Men and the Micronauts before X-Men: Children of the Atom. 

Personally, though, I have them in my long boxes by what makes most sense to me. I have 2099 in the Ts, and X-Men: Children of the Atom before X-Men and the Micronauts. After all, I'm really the only person looking at them, so as long as I know where to find them, it doesn't really matter.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
so as long as I know where to find them, it doesn't really matter. 
<<<

That's the main point. And if your software can produce a list that you then follow to organize your comics, the computer-generated list will help you find the comics when you need 'em.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 04:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Just thought that this thread probably belongs here in the Chat forum, so I moved it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 07:15 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

No "software" -- I have a typed-up text list. I can organize it however I want -- it doesn't offer any suggestions of its own. 

And yeah, I agree that I'm the only guy that's going to see my personal collection -- but still, I'm nosey and I'd like to see how others go about THEIR organizing. 

Ant-Man's got some wacky methods, if I remember correctly ... I can't wait to hear him weigh in on this thread. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 08:38 pm    
By Ant-Man

"Wacky"? 

I originally used the Overstreet method, which is taking a title, removing "the", "and", "of" etc.; squashing it together; removing punctuation; and spelling out numbers. Then you alphabetize from there. 

After a while, I just kind of started sticking titles where they made sense to me. My X's start with X-51 (placing numbers before letters), but BATMAN 3-D is between BATMAN: THE MANY DEATHS OF THE BATMAN and BATMAN VERSUS PREDATOR (like I spelled out "Three") 

Every few weeks, I'll see something and think "that's not how the alphabet works!", so I'll move it. 

I use CTRL+F to search for titles on my pages, so I guess I hadn't thought about it too much...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

Last edited by Ant-Man on 14 Nov 2004 06:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 13 Nov 2004 10:57 pm    
By Arthur

I ignore all punctuation. Ditto for "the" at the beginning. 

Numbers treated as if spelled out. 

But then again I don't do any computer sorting. 

Works for me.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 04:28 am    
By rhod

Just thought I'd chip in with my own (highly confusing) method: my comics are listed by title in order of first publication, except in cases of miniseries or one-shots quite obviously set in 'the past', which are filed as close as I can get them to where they belong. Also crossovers are all collected together in the earliest started series (ie x-men, x-force and x-factor are all missing 3 consecutive issues as their parts in eg x-cutioners song are all filed under Uncanny). 
This method has yielded all sorts of problems, which I have solved through wildly different and bizarre solutions and I wouldn't recommend anyone try and reorganize their collection in this way. Mine has 'grown' this way and as such I (more or less) understand it.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 05:26 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

My books are sorted by the number of story pages in the book, and within that, by alphabetical order of the advertiser on the inside back cover, and within that, in reverse publication order, UNLESS there's an ad in the book from Howard M. Rogofsky, in which case, they're sorted by the first story's inker's first name. 


watching: degrassi tng

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 08:43 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hey, I patented that system! You'll be hearing from my attorneys...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 11:11 am    
By Jhaeman

I do the same thing as Paul--I have Microsoft Works database (though any kind of database software will work) and just run "sort" and follow whatever it tells me--that way I don't have to think, an activity I always hate  

Jhaeman 

Comics That Time Forgot: http://www.geocities.com/jhaeman

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Posted: 15 Nov 2004 12:47 pm    
By lkseitz

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Most computers will alphabetize things by numbers first, then the alphabet. So 2099 would be before Avengers. Small words like "and" and "the" should also be ignored, but computers often don't recognize the distinction and would run X-Men and the Micronauts before X-Men: Children of the Atom. 
<<<

I've had to deal with this problem recently. After 10 or so years of non-organizing, I reorganized my entire collection. I'd previously done it alphabetically, most likely relying on what order AppleWorks (for the Apple II, not the renamed ClarisWorks for the Mac; that's how long it had been!) DB sorted them in. 

Now I'm using MobileDB on my PalmOS device. I didn't like the way it sorted the titles. So I've created an ID field for each title. (I keep one record per title, not per issue. I generally don't care to have the details of each issue in huge database.) I won't bore you with the details of the evolution of my ID coding method, but now I put my comics in whatever order makes sense to me and set the IDs to match that.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 62

Posted: 15 Nov 2004 06:23 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: November 15
By ADMINISTRATOR

Here's what ships from Diamond this week. As always, if the book isn't starred (and it's a Marvel Universe story), I'd especially appreciate an issue analysis: 

*AVENGERS EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 
CABLE DEADPOOL #9 
*CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 
*FANTASTIC FOUR #520 
GAMBIT #4 
*INVADERS #4 
MADROX #3 
MARVEL AGE SPIDER-MAN #16 
MARVEL AGE SPIDER-MAN TEAM UP #3 
*PULSE #6 $2.99 
*SHE HULK #9 
SPIDER-MAN INDIA #1 
STARJAMMERS #6 
THE PUNISHER #14 
ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #69 
ULTIMATE X-MEN #53 
*WOLVERINE #22 
X-FORCE #4 
*X-MEN #164 

Plus trades, of course. 


watching: hanna barbera's cartoon corral

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Thread 63

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 07:20 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: November 22
By ADMINISTRATOR

Here's what ships from Diamond this week. As always, stars with the ones I'll be buying, but analyses are welcomed for all. 

AMAZING FANTASY #6 
*AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #514 
*BLACK WIDOW #3 
*DAREDEVIL #67 
ELEKTRA THE HAND #4 
EXCALIBUR #7 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2004 
MARVEL MUST HAVES AVENGERS #500-502 
*MARVEL TEAM-UP #2 
MYSTIQUE #21 
*NEW THUNDERBOLTS #2 
POWERLESS #6 
POWERS #6 
SUPREME POWER #13 
ULTIMATE ELEKTRA #4 
ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR #13 

and sundry trade paperbacks. 


watching: ufo files

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 05:29 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

SUPREME POWER? I didn't know we were covering that one.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 08:01 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Heck, I didn't know we were doing POWERS, either. 

(Presumably we're not ... right?) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 08:54 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We don't, if they're not canon (I don't know). But I'm not making a distinction in that list between canon and non-canon titles. If someone provides an analysis of a non-canon book, it doesn't go in the listings, but I wouldn't delete it. 

I suppose I should include in the *list* that it's not canon, but again, many times, I don't know *myself*, if I'm not buying the book. 


watching: american morning

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Thread 64

Posted: 24 Nov 2004 09:59 pm    Post subject: You know you spend too much time with the MCP when...
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

...you see an automobile license plate "MSU NO1" and think, "that guy must like the first issue of Midnight Sons Unlimited." 

Happened to me today. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Nov 2004 12:24 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I knew that I had been spending too much time at the MCP the day I realized I was starting to keep track of the phase of the moon in whatever issue I happened to be reading at the time! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 65

Posted: 25 Nov 2004 07:36 pm    Post subject: Happy Thanksgiving!
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Yeah, it's getting close to the end of Turkey Day now, but for all of our American MCP users: Happy Thanksgiving! 

Try not to eat so much that you explode... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 25 Nov 2004 08:09 pm    
By Ant-Man

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!! 

We vist the in-laws at Thanksgiving, so yesterday I drove the family up to St. Louis from Dallas, and my little girl got to play in the snow today (not much snow, but when you're 2 years old and from Texas, a little snow is still very exciting!) 

If anyone else is travelling for the holiday, I hope that it's a safe journey...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 66

Posted: 29 Nov 2004 06:12 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: November 29
By ADMINISTRATOR

These books ship this week, according to Diamond. Books I'll be getting are starred. Analyses are welcomed. 

ALPHA FLIGHT #10 
*CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON #10 
EXILES #55 
JUBILEE #4 
MARVEL AGE SPIDER-MAN #17 
*NEW AVENGERS #1 
*NEW X-MEN #7 
*ROGUE #5 $2.99 
SABRETOOTH #4 
SPIDER-GIRL #81 
TOMB OF DRACULA #3 
ULTIMATES 2 #1 
*UNCANNY X-MEN #453 

And, of course, various reprints and trades. 


watching: late night with conan o'brien

Last edited by Administrator on 29 Nov 2004 08:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 07:59 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Books I'll be getting are starred. 
<<<

Er... light week for you? 

-Sean

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 08:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Oops. I'll edit it.  


watching: dennis miller
