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1. YEAR 19 & 20 - Heroes Reborn
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22. Heroes Reborn character appearances
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24. FF 374 / X 25
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Thread 1

Posted: 21 Nov 2004 07:28 pm    Post subject: YEAR 19 & 20 - Heroes Reborn
By RLG

While examining the Heroes Reborn storylines, I have been working under the theory that the various characters spend roughly 140 days inside the Franklinverse, with the Onslaught battle occuring mid-October YEAR 19 and the Heroes Return mini-series occuring late February, YEAR 20. In other words, roughly 140 days pass on Earth-616 AND about 140 days pass in the Franklinverse. 

I believe that Steve Rogers "discovery" that he is Captain America is the first significant event to chronologically occur in the Franklinverse. This occurs during the course of three days in the Franklinverse (CA2 #1 to the first part of CA2 #3.) If we place those "three days" a day or two after the creation of the Franklinverse, then this is what I've come up with: 

**Cable's appearance in CA2 #6 would occur some time in mid-November , YEAR 19 

**Dr. Strange's visit to the Franklinverse in H2 #450/2 (and thus H2 #450/1) would occur sometime around late November to mid-December. 

**Iron Man's appearance in X #65, could occur just about anytime from late October, YEAR 19 (when Tony "re-becomes" Iron Man) to late February, YEAR 20. 

All of this is of course predicated on (1) that time flows at the same rate in both universes and, (2) that if a character leaves Earth-616 30 days after the heroes disappeared, then he or she would arrive in the Franklinverse 30 days after it's creation. I cannot see find any evidence to suggest otherwise. Also, it seems that these assumptions would make it easier to place the Heroes Reborn stories into the calendar. 

Also, when fleshing out the events within the Franklinverse, I have relied on the lunar phases. Of course, it seems EVERY artist wants to draw a full moon, but as luck would have it they actually seen to work. By placing CA2 1 near "Day 1 - mid-October", the cross-over story in each titles issue #12, would occur near Day 100, which would be mid-January, YEAR 20. That would mean there is a gap of about a month and a half between the end of the Heroes Reborn and the Heroes Return mini-series. So if, for example, Cable can't visit in mid-October or H2 #450/2 MUST occur in late January, there is plenty of leeway. Let me know if I'm on the right track. 

- RLG

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Posted: 21 Nov 2004 11:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I have been working under the theory that the various characters spend roughly 140 days inside the Franklinverse, with the Onslaught battle occuring mid-October YEAR 19 and the Heroes Return mini-series occuring late February, YEAR 20.  
<<<

The theory is that Onslaught occurs on October 11 of Year 19 and Return occurs on February 27 of Year 20. RLG is trying to see if the flow of time in the Franklinverse seems to conform to this time frame. 



Quote: 
>>>
Cable's appearance in CA2 #6 would occur some time in mid-November , YEAR 19  
<<<

Any idea of Cable's before and after appearances? 


Quote: 
>>>
Dr. Strange's visit to the Franklinverse in H2 #450/2 (and thus H2 #450/1) would occur sometime around late November to mid-December. 
<<<


I have December 16 of Year 19 as a placeholder date. 


Quote: 
>>>
Iron Man's appearance in X #65, could occur just about anytime from late October, YEAR 19 (when Tony "re-becomes" Iron Man) to late February, YEAR 20.  
<<<


I believe someone noted that Iron Man's appearance in X 65 must occur between IM2 8 and 9. My placeholder date for the appearance in X 65 is February 20 of Year 20, just a week before Return. Does that work? My date seems a little late unless time passes quickly in those last IM2 issues. 


RLG, it sounds like you have a draft calendar for the Franklinverse prepared. Can't wait to see it! Thanks for your help. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 08:58 am    
By RLG

When it comes to Cable's chronological placement, the only clue provided was his narrative to the reader on page 4 of CA2 #6: 
"I could try and make him (Captain America) understand that I was in the middle of my Askani meditations...assuming I could explain what being 'Askani' is...that I was searching for my one-time teacher 'Blaquesmith'..how, while rummaging for clue amidst the wreckage of his old headquarters...I must have inadvertently tripped a damaged temporal displacement unit...and ended up here. But I don't know where that is or when that is...since the Captain America from my reality died months ago..sacrificing himself in the battle with Onslaught." 

CA2 #6 takes place over the course of hours and ends with Cable returning to Earth vowing to find out where he has been and bring the heroes back home or die trying. The fact that he apparently follow through with this promise to himself would also provide a clue as to his placement. Was there anything diverting Cable's attention during this time period? 
If the mid-December placement of H2 #450/2 holds, then I would place CA2 #6 as occuring roughly one or two weeks earlier, thus early December. (I'm keeping placements to the early/mid/late for the sake of flexability.) 
CA2 #6 occurs a couple of days before the Industrial Revolution cross-over that is in AV2 #6 and IM2 #6. My analysis indicates that the Fantastic Four and Iron Man's battle with the Hulk in H2 #450/2 occurs after the Industrual Revolution. The battle must occur after the Thing is released from the hospital, seen in FF2 #7. Judging from the way Ben is eager to cut loose on the Hulk, he might have been released that very day. 


Now, the placement of Iron Man in X #65 is a bit harder to nail down. I just re-read the pages involving Iron Man and have ironically concluded that it could be placed just about anywhere BUT b/w IM2 #8 & #9!! 
First, let's look at what is happening in those issues of IM2. In IM2 #8, Iron Man battles an armored Rebel O'Reilly and wins. Rebel began his attack in the final pages of IM2 #7, in which he blasted the tops floors of the Stark Building, severly injuring Happy Hogan. Pepper Potts was also with Happy at the time, but escapes injury. During the battle between the "Iron Men" in #8, S.I. security forces (led by Liz Ross) attend to Happy and Pepper, who is hysterical at the possiblity of Happy dying. 
At the end of #8, Iron Man learns that somebody has been controlling Rebel's actions. IM2 #8 ends with Iron Man taking off Rebel's armored face-plate and Rebel begging for Iron Man's help. 
In IM2 #9, Iron Man arrives at the Baxter Building carrying Rebel's body. He has come to Reed for help. Reed makes a statement along the lines of "so the news reports of your battle with a second Iron Man were true." During #9, which takes place later in the same evening as #7 & #8, Reed and Iron Man stabilize Rebel's condition, but Reed doesn't now for how long. 
In IM2 #10 & #11, the "Iron Men" fly to China to pay back the mysterious evil mastermind responsible for using Rebel as a pawn against Iron Man/Tony Stark. My thought is that, due to Rebel's uncertain condition at the end of #9, there would be no disernable break between #9 and #10. IM2 #10 clearly continues into #11. It is not until the final pages of #11 (pages 18-22 I think) where we see Tony and Reed attend Rebel's funeral that a break can be placed. 
In X #65, the only clues Iron Man provides are on page 3. After confronting Jean Grey who suddenly teleported inside the "Franklinverse" Stark International and then suddenly vanishes before his eyes, Iron Man calls Pepper and tells her "to get ahold of Dr. Reed Richards...Mr. Fantastic of the Fantastic Four. Tell him it's important." Clearly Pepper is somewhere in which she can perform that request. When we last seen her in IM2 #8, she is standing atop the destroyed Stark Building with Happy's life in question. 
Placing X #65 a week before Heroes Return seems as good a spot as any. This allows thing to settle down a bit after Happy's recovery seen in IM2 #12. 

By the way, while reviewing the Heroes Reborn stories, I ran across a throw away line by Reed in FF2 #7. He is in the Negative Zone watching the events of XVFF #1 and XVFF #2 take place (good excuse to put Wolverine on the cover of a Heroes Reborn title.), as he watches the earlier Reed be attacked by Wolverine, Reed comments that his double looks OLDER!! Could the Franklinverse actually have de-aged the characters inside??? I mean it is the FRANKLINverse!! 

- RLG

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 09:13 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment... 

So we're throwing out the numerous in-story references in multiple titles to Heroes Reborn taking a full year? 

RLG wrote: 
>>>
By the way, while reviewing the Heroes Reborn stories, I ran across a throw away line by Reed in FF2 #7. He is in the Negative Zone watching the events of XVFF #1 and XVFF #2 take place (good excuse to put Wolverine on the cover of a Heroes Reborn title.), as he watches the earlier Reed be attacked by Wolverine, Reed comments that his double looks OLDER!! Could the Franklinverse actually have de-aged the characters inside??? I mean it is the FRANKLINverse!! 
<<<

As the stories are written, all the heroes bodies were physically destroyed during their final confrontation with Onslaught. Franklin re-created all of them as he thought of them. Which means that Teen Tony instantly grew up to regular Tony Stark, Hawkeye's impaired hearing was fixed, Wasp was de-bugged... Somewhere in there, Reed was de-aged somewhat as well. 

And all those traits carried forward since the move back the regular MU was a physical one.

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 02:13 pm    
By RLG

How much time elaspes inside the Franklinverse is at the heart of my earlier question. I defer to Paul B. and others when deciding how much time elapsed on Earth-616 b/w Onslaught and Heroes Return. Honestly, the (don't laugh) Heroes Reborn & Spider-Man titles were about all I was collecting during that time. In other words, I am in no way an authority of Years 19 & 20. 

I realize that, for example, in CA2 #12, while standing in front of Abe Wilson's grave, the man who gave up his life in CA2 #1 to return the Cap shield to Steve, Captain America states that a year has elapsed since Abe's death. Also, doesn't the Heroes Return mini-series open with a reporter on Earth-616 commenting that its the year anniversary since the "death" of the heroes. Both comments seen to indicate that exactly a year has passed, but only one can be correct. 

Two things I noticed during my examination of the HR titles: (1) the lunar phases actually work out quite will with the events that unfold and (2) that the stories actually do seem to occur within a 3 1/2 to 4 month time frame (as opposed to the 4 1/2 month slot on the calendar.) 

To illustrate this, I start with the destruction of Dr. Doom's castle in FF2 #6. The destruction of Castle Doom takes place the same day as the AV2/IM2 cross-over "Industrial Revolution." A full moon is seen in both of these story lines. 

There were two other previous appearances of full moons. One is seen during IM2 #1 and the other during Cap's battle with the Red Skull. That battle occurs during one evening that comprises the second part of CA2 #3 to CA2 #5. I tend to place both the events in IM2 and CA2 as occuring during the same full moon. 

If you allow 2 weeks to 1 month to occur before those two stories to allow for Cap's "rebirth", his joining the Avengers, and the "recreation" of the FF, and then put destruction of Castle Doom & Industrial Revolution roughly a month later, you have covered roughly 1 1/2 months and have already reached the half-way mark of issue #6. 

The destruction of Castle Doom is indicated as occuring "two months ago" in the epilogue in FF2 #10. This epilogue leads up to the Galactus cross-over in the #12 issues of all four titles. So there are two more months in which (1) Iron Man and Rebel defeat HYDRA and Dr. Doom (IM2 #7-11), (2) Avengers defeat Loki (A2 #7-11), (3) Cap takes unravels the mystery of the Sons of Serpent (CA2 #8-11) and (4) the FF meet the Inhumans (FF2 #8-10.) 

By using numerous lunar and time references within the stories, we have just covered roughly 3 1/2 months time span. Now its possible that ALOT of time elapsed between the end of FF2 #10 and FF2 #11, which leads into the coming of Galactus, but all you have to do is look at Johnny Storm's behavior in FF2 #11 to put doubt on this theory. 

At the end of FF2 #10, Johnny is forced to leave Crystal behind in the Great Refuge. During FF2 #11, Johnny is still very much depressed at having to leave Crystal. For him to be missing her that bad after months seems to run counter-current with his character. This is the guy who, in FF2 #1, ditched his date in the barren desert outside Vandemeer Base just because she made him loose a game of chicken with Ben. To me, it seems more realistic that only a few days have passed since the FF returned from the their meeting with the Inhumans in FF 2 #10. 

Another case could be made that ALOT of time elapsed b/w the end of the HR titles run and the Heroes Return mini-series. Besides the fact that this would definately negate Cap's "year ago" comment in CA2 12, Sue Storm announces her pregnancy (no, she didn't sleep with the Franklinverse's Norman Osborn!) during the arrival of Galactus' heralds. If months pass between this announcement and the mini-series, surely she would "be showing" by her return. Of course, the whole pregnancy sub-plot seems to have been dropped entirely. Maybe a jealous Franklin uses his powers to...hmmm. 

I'm guessing that a week or two has passed b/w these two storylines. This would place Iron Man's appearance in X #65 after his appearance in CA2 #12. 

BTW, at no time is winter weather seen in the Franklinverse, nor is any mention of Christmas, etc. The trees and grass are always green. I think the closest would be a leaf or two in the air while Tony Stark is wearing a trench coat in IM2 #7. This fact also leads me to believe that months have passed and not a year. 

- RLG

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 10:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Playing my own devil's advocate...we'll have to watch the temporal references when dealing with the Franklinverse. Who knows how time or other laws of nature might work there? (Or maybe that was explained somehere?) It might very well be summer-like there while it's winter in the northern hemisphere of mainstream MU earth. And there's always the possibility that a year could transpire there while only a few months pass the in the mainstream MU...and that could mess up the whole lunar phase thing. 

Now that having been said...I'm reading a lot of the clues posted earlier with interest. However, not having collected these Heroes Reborn titles, I find them to be like intriguing pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, but I'm not yet getting the big picture. 

RLG, you're probably working toward this, but any chance of getting calendar-type entries in sequential order, not necessarily with exact dates attached, but with the brief plot and temporal notes that would allow us to follow a progression of these issues through time?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 02:28 am    
By RLG

As I'm about to leave town, I would be able to get a thumb-nail sketch calendar together in a few days. I've been working on a George O.-type index for the four HR titles. That is going to take a bit longer. 

- RLG

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 06:26 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
And all those traits carried forward since the move back the regular MU was a physical one. 
<<<

In Reed's case, I'm not sure that's right - the Heroes Reborn version of Reed WAS noticeably younger (he didn't have the greying temples, for example). I don't have the issue to hand, but I'm pretty sure that his hair actually returns to normal in the course of HEROES REBORN: THE RETURN #4. Quite why the change to him didn't stick is obscure, but then so are most things involving the plot mechanics of Heroes Reborn - perhaps it made a difference that Franklin had distorted Reed, while he'd simply hit the reset button on some other characters.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 11:12 am    
By electronicLad

Having not read any Heroes Reborn (my own personal gap), I don't have much to add. 
But with respect to the weather situation... wasn't counter-earth on the exact opposite side of the sun in the same orbit as earth? 
If so, and if it had the same axis as earth...the northern hemisphere should experience summer-like temperatures while earth had winter. 
Sorry if my unfamiliararity with the stories makes this nonsense, it was just something that occured to me.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 11:17 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

That only occurred after the whole Heroes Reborn thing. It was originally in another dimension entirely, and the Celestial named Ashema agreed to move it to its current location so that the whole planet wouldn't be destroyed when that dimension collapsed.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 11:36 am    
By jephyork
Director

Does Counter-Earth still have its Counter-Moon? 

When the HR Earth was moved here, did its moon come with it -- and if so, can we assume that it either IS or ISN'T on the same monthly cycle as the MU moon? 

In other words, once the HR Earth was moved to the MU, can any moon phases shown there possibly be used to help calendar placement? 

(I'm thinking specifically of T-Bolts #60-74 here.) 

And, if the moon cycles differ -- can it be deduced by how MUCH they differ? And use THAT to help place events on HR-Earth/Planet Doom/Counter-Earth II on a calendar? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 09:58 pm    
By RLG

Here is a quick version of my assesment of the events during the heroes stay in the Franklinverse. I have taken out any plot references, but have included any "assumptions" and reasons. A couple of things first... 

1) You will notice that many of the flashbacks seen in the various stories are not included, most notibly Tony Stark and Rebel O'Reilly's youth leading up to Rebel's "death." I believe that those and most other flashbacks are likely "false", created within the minds of the characters to give them a "fake" background. 

2) The dates given are broken down into DATE/DAY #/WEEKDAY. I have done this primarily to show the flow of time and to denote that certain events in different titles occur during the same day. 

3) The DATE is in reference to a certain events placement in the Calendar project. It is purely as a suggestion and is in no way meant as an "official" entry into the ongoing calendar. 

4) As stated earlier, I have been working on the assumption that the battle b/w Onslaught and the heroes occured on Oct. 11, YEAR 19 and that Heroes Return occurs on Feb. 27, YEAR 20. Therefore, the DAY # reflects how many actual days the Franklinverse has been in existence. Again, these are predicated on the wishes of Paul B. and the other calendar contributors. If they decide one day that the heroes only spent 5 days in the Franklinverse, then, as far as I'm concerned, that's the way it is. 

5) The WEEKDAY entry is a bit different, however. If the references (kids going to school, courthouse is open) are to be taken into acount. Certain events do occur during a weekday (as opposed to a weekend.) But again, if I have Oct.13 as a Thursday inside the Franklinverse, that is not to say that it MUST be a Thursday in the ongoing calendar. 

6) And finally, I have made the assumption that in any given lunar phase, a full moon can be seen over the course of about five nights. This might not be technically accurate, but to the naked eye it appears to be the case. 

With that being said..... 


OCTOBER 13 (DAY 2) - Thursday 
Iron Man (vol.2) #9 (flashback: pg 21, panel 1-3) 
-occurs one day (nighttime) 
- Assumption #1: Since this scene ties directly with the events in IM2 #7 - #11, it is considered a rare Franklinverse flashback that actually occured. 
- Assumption #2: Although the placement of this scene could occur at just about any time prior to IM2 #7, enought time would be needed to ressurect Rebel's corpse. Also, this could be Dr. Doom's first appearance in the Franklinverse. 

Wizard Heroes Reborn special 1/2 (1st story) 
- occurs during one day (day or nighttime unrevealed) 
- Assumption #1: Reed is New York perhaps to assist in the computer hacking investigation. he surely would not leave the Excelsior project just to cheer up an old friend. 
Assumption #2: Considering this story was part of a special 1/2 issue created as an introduction to the Heroes Reborn titles, the events actually occur and are not "false" flashbacks. 


***OCTOBER 14 (DAY 3) - Friday*** 
Captain America (vol. 2) #1 (pg 1 - 14) 
- occurs one day (likely Friday as the next day is the "weekend') 
- occurs during the schoolyear. Steve's wife to their son (pg 6, panel 4) "Rick, get your backpack together for school." 

Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #3 (flashback: pg 8, panel 3 - pg 9, panel 5) 
- occurs one day (nighttime in Wyoming) 
- Assumption: This flashback explains why Ben is not scheduled for the maiden voyage of the Excelsior and why he is using the flight simulator during the moring of the launch, as seen in FF2 #1 (pg 1-2) This should be considered a rare "true" flashback. 


***OCTOBER 15 (DAY 4) - Saturday*** 
Captain America (vol. 2) #1 (pg 15 - 50) 
- occurs the following day (daytime) 
- occurs durign the weekend (CA2 #1 pg 7, panel 4) 
- Abe Wilson died at "16:20" hours according to SHIELD telegram (CA2 #3, pg 19) 

Captain America (vol. 2) #2 (pg 1- 13, panel 2) 
- continues from last issue. 


***OCTOBER 16 (DAY 5) - Sunday*** 
Captain America (vol. 2) #2 (pg 13, panel 3 - pg 22) 
- occurs the following day "just before sunset" (pg 13, panel 3) 
- Assumption: Steve's conversation with Fury takes longer that is appears. Steve returns home to find Fury Saturday afternoon/early evening. Likely the light hypnosis that Fury placed Steve under took some time, with Steve coming out of hypnosis just before dawn. 

Captain America (vol. 2) #3 (pg 1 - 17) 
- continued from last issue (early morning) 


***OCTOBER 25 (DAY 14) - Tuesday*** 
Avengers (vol. 2) #1 
- occurs during one day (daytime) 
- the reference to the Fantastic Four's "Q-rating" (pg 15, panel 1) must be topical. It is possible that Reed (the scientist), Ben (war hero air ace), Sue and Johnny (the weathy siblings) have already been dubbed with the "Fantastic Four" moniker, but they have not yet gained their powers. 
- Assumption: Cap, still upset that his life has been a lie, has been with the team for about a week to ten days. 

Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #2 (pg 9 -12) 
- Assumption: Due to the distance his forces would have to cover to reach NYC, Namor's decision to invade the surface world occurs a couple of days before the rest of the story. 


***OCTOBER 27 (DAY 16) - Thursday*** 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #1 
- occurs during one day (dawn to nighttime - PST) 


***OCTOBER 28 (DAY 17) - Friday*** 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #2 (pg 1 - 8 & pg 13 - 22) 
- occurs the folowing day 
- the end of the story marks the first time the public has seen the FF. 

Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #3 (pg 1 - 21) 
- continued from the last issue (daytime) 
- the fact that "barbarian" Thor is present means this must take place AFTER A2 #1. Since there is no discernible break in the story in which the public can learn of the existence of the "Fantastic Four", the comment of their "Q-rating" nust be topical. 


***OCTOBER 31 (DAY 20) - Monday *** 
Avengers (vol. 2) #2 
- occurs during one day (daytime) 
- according to Henry Pym, "barbarian" Thor has been undergoing a strength and endurance test for "11 hours and 14 minutes" (pg 3, panel 1) at the start of this story. 
- the FF (pg 19, panel 4) are engaged in an untold adventure. 
- Assumption: the fact that Pym is testing "barbarian" Thor, indicates that only a few days have passed since last issue. 

Avengers (vol. 2) #3 
- continues from last issue (dusk) 


*** NOVEMBER 4 (DAY 24) - Friday*** 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #3 (pg 22) 
- occurs during one day(daytime) 
- occurs "a week" after the rest of the story 

Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #5 (pg 3, panel 1) 
- Wyatt's capture only told in his narrative, not actual flashback. 
- occurs about "four weeks" before the start of FF2 #4 


***NOVEMBER 10 (DAY 30) - Thursday*** 
Captain America (vol. 2) #3 (pg 18 - 22) 
- occurs during one day (daytime) 
- undetermined amount of time has passed b/w pg 17 & 18 

Captain America (vol. 2) #4 
- continued from last issue (nighttime) 
- full moon seen (pg 1) 
- Assumption: This full moon is the same one seen in IM2 #1. The exact order of the two storylines is open for debate. 

Captain America (vol. 2) #5 
- continued from last issue (nightitme) 


***NOVEMBER 11 (DAY 31) - Friday*** 
Iron Man (vol. 2) #1 (pg 5 - 23) 
- occurs during one day (nightitme) 
- must occur on a weekday, since Tony's courtcase was settled today. 
- pg 1 - 4 is a "false" flashback of Rebel's death 
- full moon is seen (pg 20, panel 3) 
- Assumption: the full moon is the same one seen in CA2 #3 - #5. The exact order in which the two storylines occur is open for debate. 

***NOVEMBER 12 (DAY 32) - Saturday*** 
Iron Man (vol. 2) #1 (pg 24-44) 
-occurs the early hours of the following day. 
- according to Reed (IM2 #3 pg 2) Tony's transport was attacked at "0600 hours", thus this and the subsequent battle with the Hulk must occur the day (still nighttime) after the courtcase was settled. 

Iron Man (vol. 2) #2 
- continued from last issue (early morning - still dark) 
- a surgeon is at an operating table (pg 21), further indicating that the battle against the Hulk takes place in the early morning. 

Iron Man (vol. 3) #3 
- occurs the same day as last issue (later that night) 
- FF are wearing their uniforms 
- Pepper dyes her hair blonde 
- Whirlwind's meeting with Madam Hydra is scheduled at 8:15. Whether or not that is A.M. or P.M. is not certain, as the meeting occurs in HYDRA's HQ, which is located somewhere in China (established in IM2 #10) 


***NOVEMBER 23 (DAY 43) - Wednesday*** 
Iron Man (vol. 2) #4 (pg 1 - 21) 
- occurs during one day (daytime) 
- Assumption #1: Placement of this issue is very open to debate. I have placed it during a weekday, as Tony receiving business-related vistors and about midway between #3 and #5. 
- Assumption #2: The fact that Pepper wears a different set of clothes on pg 9 and pg 22, indicates that pg 22 occurs at a later point in time, likely the evening before IM2 #5. 


OK, I've gotta take a break. I'll pick-up with December, etc. soon. 

- RLG2

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 11:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hi, RLG. One quick note: your dates are off by one relative to my calendar, as I accommodated a Leap Day (Feb. 29) in Year 20. So I have Thursday, Oct. 14 (not 13), etc.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 10:44 pm    
By RLG

Paul, 
Off by only one day?? Not too bad since I didn't even think to backtrack with the existing calendar. I had been working under the theory that a Friday on Earth-616 would not necessarily be a Friday in the Franklinverse. But, if we're only off by a day, I can easily change that, as I purposly tried to make this as flexible as possible. The advanced copy I sent you as already been adjusted, but for the rest of the readers, let me do a quick adjustment to my previous entry..... 

OCT 14 (DAY 3) - Thursday 
Iron Man (vol.2) #9 (flashback: pg 21, panels 1-3) 
Wizard Heroes Reborn special #1/2 (second story) 

OCT 15 (DAY 4) - Friday 
Captain America (vol.2) #1 (pg 1-14) 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #3 (flashback: pg 8, panel 3 - pg 9, panel 5) 

OCT 16 (DAY 5) - Saturday 
Captain America (vol.2) #1 (pg 15-50) 
Captain America (vol.2) #2 (pg 1-13, panel 2) 

OCT 17 (DAY 6) - Sunday 
Captain America (vol.2) #2 (pg 13, panel 3 - pg 22) 
Captain America (vol.2) #3 (pg 1-17) 

OCT 26 (DAY 15) - Tuesday 
Avengers (vol.2) #1 
Fantastic Four (vol.2) #2 (pg 9-12) 

OCT 28 (DAY 17) - Thursday 
Fantastic Four (vol.2) #1 

OCT 29 (DAY 18) - Friday 
Fantastic Four (vol.2) #2 (pg 1-8 & pg 13-22) 
Fantastic Four (vol.2) #3 (pg 1-7 & pg 9, panel 6 - pg 21) 

NOV 1 (DAY 21) - Sunday 
Avengers (vol.2) #2 
Avengers (vol.2) #3 

NOV 5 (DAY 25) - Friday 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #3 (pg 22) 

NOV 11 (DAY 31) - Thursday 
Captain America (vol.2) #3 (pg 18-22) 
Captain America (vol.2) #4 
Captain America (vol.2) #5 

NOV 12 (DAY 32) - Friday 
Iron Man (vol.2) #1 (pg 5-23) 

NOV 13 (DAY 33) - Saturday 
Iron Man (vol.2) #1 (pg 24-44) 
Iron Man (vol.2) #2 
Iron Man (vol.2) #3 

NOV 24 (DAY 44) - Wednesday 
Iron Man (vol.2) #4 (pg 1-21) 

OK, sorry about that. Now back to our regularly scheduled program... 


DECEMBER 6 (DAY 56) - Monday 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #5 (pg 3, panel 1) 
- occurs 3 days before FF2 #4 
- Wyatt's escape from Latveria only told in narrative form 

Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #9 (flashback: pg 17, panel 6) 
- occurs 1 day (whether it's day or nighttime in the Great Refuge is unclear) 
- Assumption: As stated by Medusa (pg 17, panel 5), Maximus entered the Terrigen Mist cave and "a short time later" the flow of mist stopped. "Following that, strange and terrifying "mutatants" emerged from the caverns," she continued (pg 18, panel 1). For the "past few weeks" (pg 18, panel 3) the Great Refuge has been fighting a never-ending battle with the monsters. Given that it would take some time for Maximus to locate and then decipher the device controlling the flow of Terrigen mist, his entry into the caverns (this flashback) is placed here. This allows a couple of weeks to perform those tasks before the appearance of the mutatants in thr Great Refuge. 


DECEMBER 7 (DAY 57) - Tuesday 

Wizard Heroes Reborn special #1/2 (first story) 
- occurs during 1 day (daytime) 
- Assumption: Cap and Bucky are one their way to the Helicarrier (in CA2 #6) 

Captain America (vol. 2) #6 
- occurs during 1 day (whether it is day or nighttime is unclear) 
- Cable guest-stars 
- Assumption: Cap and Bucky were seen earlier this day in Wizard Heroes Reborn special #1/2 (first story) 


DECEMBER 10 (DAY 60) - Friday 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #4 (pg 1-10) 
- occurs one day (daytime) 
- Ben claims he's been searching for Alica for 2 weeks (pg 5) 
- Assumption: The fact that a full moon in Wakanda upon Reed and Sue's arrival (pg 13), would place the events of CA2 #3-5 and IM2 #1-3 about 28-29 days before this story. For Ben's comment of "two weeks" to be accurate, he would have been too preoccupied with setting up the Baxter Building during the "week" between FF2 #3 pg 21 & 22 to search for Alicia. Also, the "untold adventure" the quartet was involved in in A2 #2 might also have preoccupied his time before he could finally settle down and search for her. 

Iron Man (vol.2) #4 (pg 22) 
- occurs one day (likely a short time after the end of the workday) 
- Assumption #1: As Pepper is held hostage immediately after her encounter with Whirlwind, this scene takes place the evening before IM2 #5. As IM2 #5-6 occurs the same day as A2 #4-6, placement of this scene occurs here. At about the same time as she is captured by Whirlwind, Ben & Johnny meet the real Wyatt Wingfoot. 

Fantastic Four (vol.2) #4 (pg 12) 
- occurs shortly after Reed and Sue leave the Baxter Building for Wakanda. 
- must be told out of chronologically order within the story. 

Fantastic Four (vol.2) #5 (pg 1-3) 
- occurs immediately after FF2 #4 pg 12 
- Wyatt reveals that he escaped from Latveria 3 days ago (pg 3, panel 1) 
- Assumption: Since there would be no reason for the Wakandan communications officer to lie to Ben when he tells him that Reed & Sue haven't arrived, this scene must occur while they are en route to Wakanda. Reed and Sue's next appearance is FF2 #4 (pg 11), where they enter Wakandan airspace. It is curious why Reed wouldn't contact Ben once he and Sue arrived. Perhaps Ben, Johnny, and Wyatt already took off in the Jump-Jet and were unable to be contacted. 

Iron Man (vol.2) #5 (pg 13-14) 
- occurs the same evening as IM2 #4 
- Assumption: This scene is told out of sequence with the rest of the story, as Bruce is in Marlboro and about to be approached by the local police. His (BTS) transformation into the Hulk leads to the town's destruction, which is seen in A2 #4. 

Fantastic Four (vol.2) #4 (pg 11) 
- occurs the same day (dusk in Wakanda) 

Fantastic Four (vol.2) #4 (pg 13-14, panel 5) 
- occurs the same day (nighttime in Wakanda) 
- full moon seen in the Wakandan sky (pg 13, panel 1 & pg 14, panels 1, 2, & 5) 

Fantastic Four (vol.2) #6 (pg 1) 
- occurs later the same night 
- although it seems as it it might be snowing in NYC, it is most likely a reflection on Alicia's window, or perhaps sloshed-around clay. 


DECEMBER 11 (DAY 61) - Saturday 
Fantastic Four (vol.2) #4 (pg 14, panel 6 - pg 22) 
- occurs the next moring at sunrise (Wakandan time) 
- assuming that dawn arrives 6 hours earlier in Wakanda, this serves as a break between days. 
- Assumption: During this time, Ben, Johnny, & Wyatt are en route to Wakanda. They arrive (BTS) shortly after Reed and co. are captured. It is also possible that upon learning that the royal expedition has gone missing, the Wakandan authorities contacted Ben and Johnny, who then diverted their flight plan to Latveria. They are next seen entering Latverian airspace. 

Avengers (vol.2) #4 (pg 1-9) 
- occurs 1 day (nighttime) 

Avengers (vol.2) #4 (pg 10-11) 
- occurs the same day (sunrise in Hyde Park) 

Fantastic Four (vol.2) #5 (pg 4-22) 
- occurs the same day (daytime in Latveria) 
- Agent Wingfoot revealed to be Skrull agent Kl'Rt in this story. 

Iron Man (vol.2) #5 (flashback: pg 4, panel 2 - pg 12, panel 2) 
- occurs the same day (morning to afternoon in NY) 
- the last time Iron Man saw the Hulk was near Niagara Falls, so it is likely that Iron Man has been made aware of the Hulk's appearance in Marlboro last night. This would explain why he is searching for the Hulk in the Hudson River. 

Fantastic Four (vol.2) #6 (pg 2-16) 
- occurs immediately after FF2 #5 
- assuming Latveria is 6 hours before EST, this would place the events in this story occuring at about the same time as Tony Stark's battle with Whirlwind. 

Avengers (vol.2) #4 (pg 12-22) 
- occurs the same day 

Avengers (vol.2) #5 
- occurs the same day 

Iron Man (vol.2) #5 (pg 1-4, panel 1 & pg 12, panels 3-4) 
-occurs immediately after IM2 #5 flashback 

Iron Man (vol.2) #5 (pg 14-20) 
-occurs shortly after pg 12, panel 4 
-while Tony battles Whirlwind, the Hulk attacks the Avengers HQ 

Iron Man (vol.2) #5 (pg 21-24) 
-occurs the same day 
-Tony is tending his wounds when he and Pepper learn of the destruction of the Avengers HQ, thus firmly establishing that his battle with Whirlwind and the Hulk's attack occur the same day. 

Fantastic Four (vol.2) #6 (second story) 
- occurs same day (nighttime in Latveria) 
- full moon seen in Latverian sky (pg 17) 
- Dr. Doom's failed attempt to capture the Silver Surfer's power occured within "the last 24 hours." (pg 17, panel 2) 
- this is the Prologue to the Industrial Revolution cross-over 

Avengers (vol.2) #6 
- occurs same day (nighttime) 
- full moon (pg 13) 
- the appearance of the FF in the Baxter Building indicates that the have recently returned from Latveria (or Wakanda, as they would have to drop off the Black Panther.) 
- this is Chapter 1 of the Industrial Revolution 

Iron Man (vol.2) #6 
- occurs the same day (nighttime) 
- this is Chapter 2 of the Industrial Revolution 

DECEMBER 12 (DAY 62) - Sunday 
Captain America (vol.2) #6 (second story) 
- occurs 1 day (nighttime) 
- occurs "days" after CA2 #6/1 
- shortly after this story, Iron Man becomes an Avenger 
- Assumption: This story occurs either hours after the conclusion of Industrial Revolution, or the following night. Either way it would be placed on this day. 

DECEMBER 13 (DAY 63) - Monday 
Fantastic Four (vol.2) #7 
- occurs one day (daytime) shortly after last issue 
- Johnny is revealed to have injured his shoulder during the Industrial Revolution cross-over and wears a sling. 
- Assumption: While visiting Ben in the hospital (pg 4, panel 5), Alicia comments that he saved alot of people "that day" in Latveria. She is referring to what she learned on the news about the incident in Latveria. The phrase "that day" would indicate that the battle did not occur the previous day, for she would have said "yesterday" instead. 

DECEMBER 16 (DAY 66) - Thursday 
Incredible Hulk #450 (vol.2) (second story) 
- occurs during 1 day (daytime) 
- Johnny's shoulder appears healed and Ben is out of the hospital 
- Dr. Strange of Earth-616 visits the Franklinverse 
- Assumption #1: Ben's eagerness to "cut loose" on an opponent (pg 33 of issue / pg 11 of story, panel 2) is likely a result of his hospital stay. In fact, it is possible that he was just released. 
- Assumption #2: The fact that the Hulk is in NYC and that the FF seem to be aware of him, indicates that this story takes place after the Hulk's disappearance in Industrial Revolution. When he is next seen (IM2 #8), he is lurking in the cities sewer system. The sudden disappearance of Dr. Strange might have allowed the Hulk an opportunity to escape. 

Fantastic Four (vol.2) #9 (flashback: pg 18, panels 2 & 4) 
- occurs durign 1 day (whether it is daytime or night in the Great Refuge is unclear) 
- Assumption: According to Medusa (pg 18, panel 3), the Inhumans have been battling the mutatants for the "past few weeks." The placement of the flashback at this point allows for the "few weeks" to pass before FF2 #8-10. 

************************************************** 
I have to go now, but this takes us through the end of the year and midway through the Heroes Reborn title runs (they all were 12 issues long.) I will attempt to complete this as soon as a can. 

- RLG2

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Dec 2004 12:16 pm    
By RLG

JANUARY 6 (DAY 87) - Thursday 
Avengers (vol. 2) #7 (pg 1 - 11) 
- occurs during 1 day (daytime) 
- Assumption: Since Iron Man is showing barbarian Thor around the mansion in IM2 #7, IM2 #7-#11 must occur at this point. The appearance of barbarian Thor in IM2 #7 indicates that it must take place before his death in A2 #11. There are no other discernable breaks in the Avengers storyline that can fit the time needed for Iron Man's battle against Rebel and their subsequent trip to China (see IM2 #7-11) 

Iron Man (vol. 2) #7 
-begins shortly after A2 #7, pg 11 (daytime to late afternoon) 

Iron Man (vol. 2) #8 
- continues from last isue (late afternoon) 
- the fact that Jennifer Walters is on her way to a meeting with a client indicates that this must be a weekday. 

Iron Man (vol. 2) #9 
- continued from last issue (late afternoon; sun still shining: pg 2) 
- Reed's assesment of Rebel's life expectancy clearly indicates that no time is wasted between this issue and next, where Iron Man and Rebel travel to China. 
- although much of this story is comprised of "false" flashbacks, the scene (pg 21, panels 1-3) where Rebel's body is removed from the grave is not and is listed. 

Iron Man (vol. 2) #10 
- occurs the same day (nighttime in China) 
- full moon seen in NYC sky (pg 12, panel 1) 
-Tony and Rebel switch armor (off-panel) between pg 11, panel 2 & pg 15, as after the end of the battle with Titanuim Man and Crimson Dyanmo, but before they invade HYDRA's HQ. So it is actually Rebel who is killed (wearing the Iron Man armor) at the end of the story. The armor switch takes place about the same time that Jennifer injects herself with gamma-irradiated blood. 
- Assumption #1: Given the fact that HYDRA's HQ is 10 to 11 hours before EST, the "Iron Man" likely arrive in China shortly before the first sunlight. In fact by the time they arrive at HYDRA's HQ, it appears daylight. 
- Assumption #2: As stated before, Rebel's condition is such that no time would be wasted to get to China. No gap can be found to accomidate A2 #7-11, which takes place over 3 days. That storyline occurs immediately after Iron Man returns from Latveria, as there are full moons seen in both storylines. 
- IT IS POSSIBLE that Thursday slips into Friday somewhere around this and next issue. I have purposely left Friday free for that eventuality. 

Iron Man (vol. 2) #11 (pg 1 - 18) 
- occurs the same day (see above comment) 
- whether or not it is daytime or night in Latveria is unclear. 
- the appearance of Thor, Hulk, & Iron Man in the Arizona desert (pg 9-10), occurs shortly after A #1 and should be included in their chronology. The absence of Ant-Man and Wasp indicates that they must have left shortly after the end of A #1. 
- the appearance of the Thing (pg 11-12), likely occurs between panels 4 & 5, pg 13 in FF #5 and should be included in his chronology. This would place his appearance as occuring after he, Reed, and Johnny took over the pirate ship, but before the rival pirate ship attacks in FF #5. 
- Merlin states "the men of iron, here again, for the first time," indicates that Merlin's appearance in this story (pg 13-14) should occur before IM #150. 
- Rama-Tut's appearance (pg 15-16) is vague, althought he does recognize Dr. Doom. 
- Air-Walker's appearance (pg 17) suggests that life on Earth was created by Galactus' hand for the purposes of harvesting eons later. Althought this is the states method of the Franklinverse Galactus, the Galactus of Earth-616 has never operated in such a fashion. Although it is possible that Iron Man and Dr. Doom are witnessing the origins of life on in the Franklinverse Earth, this seen unlikely due to the fact that their previous time-stops have all occured on Earth-616's past and that the franklinverse has only been in existance for a short amount of time. It is more likely that Rama-Tut somehow shunted them to a reality he thought they belonged to, a reality that has been around long enough to have a pre-historic past and one in which life on Earth was spawned by Galactus. Rama-Tut's motives might even be more sinister, in hopes of getting Iron Man and Dr. Doom lost in the time/space continuum. Of course, this is all conjecture. 
- Assumption: Between this and last issue, Dr. Doom, Iron Man, and Rebel's corpse travel from China to Latveria. It is unclear how this occurs, however the continuity between issues indicates that it must take place fairly soon after last issue. Standing efore his true enemy who just killed his best friend, Tony wouldn't likely stand around for too long. Also, Rebel's body would begin to decay if too much time elasped between the issues. It is likely that either a high-speed aircraft is used, or even a teleportation device. A teleportation device would fit in with Doom's secret hand in running HYRDA, as he would be able to sneak into their HQ and check thing out from time to time. 


JANUARY 8 (DAY 89) - Saturday 
Avengers (vol. 2) #7 (pg 12 - 23) 
- occurs 1 day (nighttime) 
- full moon is scene (pg 12 & 22) 
- according to the clock on the wall, the Lethal Legion's attack begins at 11:05 p.m. (pg 16, panel 4) 
- enought time has elapsed for Hawkeye to have recovered from his injuries received inA2 #4. 
- Hawkeye is seen in the holo-simulator room reliving the team's first mission. The team had been by SHIELD to Argentina to hunt down Baron Zemo. According to the simulation, the Reaper was killed during this failed mission, thus becoming the first Avenger to die. The precise time (or reality thereof) of the mission is uncertain, but would have occured before Cap joined the already formed team. 
- Assumption: The full moon seen is from the same lunar cycle as IM2 #7-11. Either this is the same lunar cycle as seen in Industrial Revolution or about a month later. This seems unlikely for Tony Stark to modify his parent's old mansion into the new HQ in a matter of a day or two. It is more likely that this and Iron Man's battle with HYDRA occurs about 28-29 days later. Of course, this means that Henry Pym (Ant-Man) has been trapped inside the Vision's body during that "month", but it is highly likely that Henry incorportated some of the technology used in the Iron Man's armor, such as a life-support system. Such a function would certainly come in hand if one were about to take an experimental micro-gas and not be certain if food, water, etc. could be digested in such a small state. 

Avengers (vol. 2) #8 (pg 1 - 11) 
-occurs the same day (nightime, getting close to midnight) 


JANUARY 9 (DAY 90) - Sunday 
Avengers (vol. 2) #8 (pg 12 - 17) 
- occurs the next day (very early hours of the day, still nighttime) 
- Assumption: this is the point in time where Saturday slides into Sunday. 
- Cap still wearing his the SHIELD eagle logo on his forehead. When he appears next, he wears the traditional "A" 

Captain America (vol. 2) #7 
- occurs the same day (daytime) 
- Cap rips off the SHIELD eagle logo from his uniform 
- Assumption: the "disappearance" of MODOK, Baron Zemo, and AIM aboard the Helicarrier is the last straw for Cap. After learning of the apparent escape, Cap arranges a meeting with President Clinton to fully divest himself of any government affiliation. Their meeting occurs hours before the Masters of Evil attack the Avengers (A2 #8-9) 

Avengers (vol. 2) #8 (pg 18 - 22) 
- occurs the same day (daytime) 
- at some point between the Lethal Legion's attack and the Master of Evil attack, the swordsman is moved from the mansion's medilab to the hospital. The BTS transfer likely occurs shorty before this part of the story. 
- how Whirlwind escaped his fate after IM2 #5 is not explained. Likely that Loki rescued him 
- "Sometime later that day" (pog 17, panel 1) indicates that, at least, the previous page occured the same day. 

Avengers (vol. 2) #9 
-occurs the same day (nighttime) 
-Swordsman is revealed to have vanished from his hospital room, the assumption within the story that Loki has absorbed his liffe essence. He is next seen, however, standing among his teammates in CA2 #12, pg 12, panel 2, where he appears fine (see next entry) 
- the victim's of oki's life absorption appear later on in the Franklinverse, most notibly the entire membership of hte Masters of Evil in thier own one-shot title issue. It is likely that once Loki is finally defeated (A2 #11), his victims are returned to normal. 
- the images of the Living Laser, the Grim Reaper, and the Super-Adaptiod appear in the dimensional rft (pg 21). The Living Laser is confirmed dead by Iron Man, however this is the 1st appearance of the Grim Reaper being referred to as an "old foe." The Super-Adaptiod is also first seen here. The fact that the Super-Adaptiod has the "cable-looking" torso and neck of Iron Man, indicates that he fought the Avengers after Iron Man joined the team. This likely occured during the month-long gap between IM2 #6 and IM2 #7. 
- according to Henry Pmy in A2 #4, he is the first to use the experimental micro-gas. However, in this story, Jan shrinks to Wasp-size apparently on her own. It is possible that this is a natural ability of her's, one in which Henry used in his research to create the experimental micron-gas. 
- the "true" Thor appears for the first time in the Franklinverse this issue. 
- Assumption: Jan informs Iron Man that Henry Pym has been missing for "days" (pg 9, panel 2). Actually, it has been much longer. Although this error could be attributed to Jan not realizing the extint of his true absence, it is also possible that Ultron 5, in order to cover-up his attempted patricide, used a voice-disguiser to occasionally contact Jan during this month period. Knowing the extent of the Ant-Man armor's ability to keep Henry alive, Ultron would need to continue the ruse until he was certain Henry would be dead. Ultron 5's unplanned alliance with Loki's forces and ultimate destruction probably led him to prematurely discontinue the effort. So, as far as Jan is aware of, she hasn't spoken with Henry in "days." 

Avengers (vol. 2) #10 (pg 1 - 7) 
- occurs the same day (nighttime) 
- a full moon is seen 
- the appearance of Mr. Fantastic in this issue eliminates the possiblity that the events in FF2 #8-10 are occuring simultaneously. Those issues also contain a full moon, but occur almost a month later. 


JANUARY 10 (DAY 91) - Monday 
Avengers (vol. 2) #10 (pg 8 - 22) 
- occurs the following day (still nighttime, just before daybreak) 
- full moon still in the sky (pg 21, panel 3) 
- between pg 7 & 8 is the most likely break between Sunday & Monday 
- as Fury leaves the Andes, he orders a report due by "0200 hours" (pg 9, panel 4) 
- Hawkeye is given a more traditional purple uniform by Loki 
- given the extreme nature of the threat, no discernable break can be found in this issue. 

Avengers (vol. 2) #11 (pg 1 - 21) 
- occurs the same day (sunrise) 


JANUARY 12 (DAY 93) - Wednesday 
Avengers (vol. 2) #11 (pg 22) 
- occurs 1 day (whether it is daytime or night is unclear) 
- Assumption: Cap's visit to Hawkeye's hospital room occurs a day or two after Loki's defeat. 

Iron Man (vol. 2) #11 (pg 19 -22) 
- occurs 1 day (daytime) 
- Assumption: Rebel's funeral occurs a few days after Iron Man's return from Latveria, but after the battle against Loki. 


JANUARY 21 (DAY 102) - Friday 
Captain America (vol. 2) #8 (flashback: pg 2-3) 
- occurs during 1 day (daytime) 
- Assumption: After tying up loose ends with the Avengers, Cap decides to travel the countryside. As this is the beginning of his sojourn, it most likely occurs about a week or two after Loki's defeat. 


JANUARY 31 (DAY 112) - Monday 
Captain America (vol. 2) #8 (pg 1 & 4 -22) 
- occurs 1 day (daytime) 
- Assumption: Cap has spent a week or two on the road before discovering the presence of the Serpents. Once e is on their trail, he travels from Texas to Arizona to Hollywood. The events in Hollywood (CA2 #9) lead him back to Washington DC (CA2 #10 -11). Those two issues occur during a full moon, roughly a month from A2 #11. Assuming the trek from Texas to Hollywood to DC occurs roughly a week, this provides Cap with a period of about two weeks between this issue flashback and the main story. 

Next stop.... February.

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 06:35 pm    
By RLG

FEBRUARY 2 (DAY 114) - Wednesday 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #10 (pg 20 - 22) 
- occurs 1 day (daytime in Latveria) 
- "two months" have passed (pg 20, panel 1) since the destruction of Castle Doom (see FF2 #6) 
- Assumption: Given that Doom would need a day or two to modify his device with the information he received from the "future" Doom, it is likely that this scene takes place out of chronological order with the rest of the story. 

Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #8 (pg 1 - 17) 
- occurs 1 day (morning to night) 
- story opens at "7:05 a.m." with Sue seeing Franklin (pg 1) 
- Sue, Johnny, & Ben use the training room at 4:30 p.m. (pg 3) 
- a full moon is seen in the sky (pgs 14 & 16) 
-Assumption: Since the Jump-Jet takes off from NYC during the night and Reed claims it will takes a "few hours" to reach the Himalayas, there must be a breaks between Wednesday and Thursday within this issue. When the Jump-Jet arrives in the Himalayas, rays of sunlight can barely be seen in the sky. There is no way the team could depart NYC, spned a "few hours" in the air, an arrive during daybreak in the Himalayas. More than likely, the team left around 4:00 a.m. EST, spent 4 or 5 hours in the air, and arrived in Asia during the final hours of dusk, around 6:00 p.m. or 7:00 p.m. local time. As it is implausible to suggest that Dr. Johnston's lecture took place after midnight, the delay in departing to search for Johnny was likely due to Reed needing to question Dr. Johnston extensively on the precise location that he found the Makalu Tablet. Afer departing for the Baxter Building, it is likely that more time was consumed by making ready the Jump-Jet. 


FEBRUARY 3 (DAY 115) - Thursday 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #8 (pg 18 - 22) 
- occurs the following day (early hours in NYC and just before nightfall in the Himalayas) 
- a full moon is seen in the sky (pg 18) as the Jump-Jet departs NYC 
- Reed claims that the Jump-Jet will get them to the Himalayas in a "few hours" (pg 18, panel 5) 
- the first rays of sunlight APPEAR to be in the Asian sky, but they are actually the last few rays (see above.) 

Captain America (vol. 2) #9 
-occurs 1 day (daytime into the the night - PST) 


FEBRUARY 4 (DAY 116) - Friday 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #9 
- occurs the following day (daylight in the Great Refuge) 
- Medusa claims that "for the past few weeks", the Inhumans have been attacked by the "Mutatants" 
- Galactus indicates that the Silver Surfer and Terrax are already on the way to Earth (pg 3, panel 6). This establishes that IM2 #10 occurs prior to this issue (or at least the scene involving Terrax.) 

Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #10 (pg 1 - 7) 
- occurs the same day (daytime in the Great Refuge) 
- Assumption: The fact that Crystal is present during the celebration indicates that her injuries were not extensive. 

Captain America (vol. 2) #10 (flashback: pg 7) 
- occurs during 1 day (whether it is daytime or night is unclear) 
- Assumption: Due to its placement within the issue, this flashback occurs before Cap's reunion with the Falcon. Most likely this scene occurs just hours before that "Falcon" flashback. 

Captain America (vol. 2) #10 (flashback: pg 9) 
- occurs during 1 day (nighttime in DC) 
- full moon seen 
- Assumption: Given the urgency Cap feels towards taking down the Serpents, this flashback likely occurs the night after last issue. 


Captain America (vol. 2) #10 
- occurs during 1 day (afternoon into the night) 
- full moon seen (pg 19) 

Captain America (vol. 2) #11 
- occurs the same day as last issue (nighttime) 
- full moon in the sky 
- the "Nick Fury" throughout the Heroes Reborn run is revealed to have been an evil-LMD in this story. This story also marks the first appearance of the "real" Franklinverse Nick Fury. 

Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #10 (pg 18 - 19) 
- occurs "the following morning" (pg 18, panel 1) 
- given the time zone difference between the Great Refuge and NYC, the FF likely return to the Baxter Building late in the evening, probably shortly after or during Cap's battle with the Serpent King in CA2 #11 


FEBRUARY 6 (DAY 118) - Sunday 
Fantastic Four (vol. 2) #11 
- occurs during 1 day (daytime) 
- Assumption: This story leads into the 4-part crossover involving the coming of Galactus. That crossover occurs during the same day. Since a full moon is seen in CA2 #12, this issue must take place shortly after the team's return from the Great Refuge. The fact that Johnny is still upset of leaving Crystal is also an indication as to how recent their return from the Great Refuge is. 

Captain America (vol. 2) #12 
- occurs the same day (afternoon to night) 
- full moon seen in NYC sky 
- Swordsman present in the Avengers mansion 
- repairs appear complete at the Avengers mansion 
- the Vision is present. In A2 #12, Henry Pym reveals that before the Vision exploded, he took out the android's memory chip. In A2 #12, Henry implants the chip into a "spare" Vision body. Whether or not the scene in A2 #12 actually occurs is open to discussion (see below) 


FEBRUARY 20 (DAY 132) - Sunday 
X-Men #65 
- occurs during 1 day (whether it is daytime or night is unclear) 
- Jean Grey becomes the third Earth-616 individual to visit the Franklinverse. 
- the fact that Pepper is working (BTS) on a Sunday could be an indication to her loyality to Tony and an effort to catch up on back work that built up while she tended to a hospital-bound Happy. 
- a week later (Feb 27), the characters return to Earth-616 in the Heroes Return mini-series. 

*NOTE: As stated above, the four-part crossover (FF2 #12, A2 #12, IM2 #12, and CA2 #12) all take place during the same day. The Earth is devoured by Galactus in the first three of those issues and Dr. Doom manages to travel back in time before each time the Earth is destroyed. I'm inclined to believe that the heroes seen in FF2 #12, A2 #12 and IM2 #12 are all alternate versions of the heroes we all know and love - version who are devoured by the Big G. Hence, only Doom would be an "actual" character in those 1st three issues of the crossover. 
Since this involves divergent realities, It's going to take me a little time to disect the crossover. I'm still leaving open the possibility that some of the pages within those three issues could occur before a divegent split. Any suggestions would be helpful. 

- RLG2

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Thread 2

Posted: 01 Dec 2004 05:48 pm    Post subject: Changeling - corrections
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Changeling's listing currently reads... 

... 
UX 41 
UX 42 
XCAL:P 
S-H2 34 
S-H2 35 

XCAL:P was discredited as a false memory during Alan Davis' second run on XCAL. On the other hand, the Changeling's corpse is behind the scenes in UX 43, where he's buried. So it ought to read... 

UX 41 
UX 42 
UX 43-BTS 
S-H2 34 
S-H2 35
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 05:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

"Possession" wasn't described as "a false memory" ... the quote is: 

Brian: "It was all wrong ... I must have dreamt it." 

Roma: "No, you did experience the events in reality. Some agency, of considerable power, toyed with you." 

The "agency" was, of course, Merlyn. I don't know whether Roma's quote translates to "Merlyn warped reality" or "Merlyn cast a giant illusion", so I can't say for certain if that was the REAL Changeling appearing there -- but I do know that the Possession wasn't merely a false memory. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 11:55 pm    Post subject: The truth according to Merlyn
By DonCampbell

In Excalibur #50, Merlyn revealed that he had maneuvered Roma into manipulating the members of Excalibur so that they would be ready to merge together into one being who could repair the energy matrix when it began collapsing. Here's what he said about Possession: 

Merlyn: "A clever ploy, capably executed, but not fully successful. Which is why I was required to do a small amount of fine tuning." 
Brian: "So it was you who masqueraded as Myrd." 
Merlyn: "Yes, the 'Possession' incident was necessary to prepare your psyches for their recent merger. The event was pure fantasy - - played out in the subconscious mind of Alistaire Stuart." 

I understand this to mean that the whole Possession adventure was some sort of "mental virtual reality" experience, something in which all the members of Excalibur participated (within Alistaire's mind?) but which otherwise didn't really happen. Thus the Changeling who appeared in that story was just a mental construct created by Merlyn as part of the storyline for the adventure and NOT the real Changeling. 

By the way, I thought it was rather a good thing that Alan Davis took a story which was full of continuity errors and turned it into something that was in-continuity and even helped his own plot. 

Don Campbell

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Thread 3

Posted: 01 Dec 2004 06:08 pm    Post subject: Red Raven query
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I see that the MCP has three Red Ravens listed. Red Raven I, the Golden Age version, has all the origin flashbacks, including the ones in UX 44. But the actual STORY in UX 44 is attributed to Red Raven II. Was the UX 44 version revealed to be an impostor at some point? What's the deal here?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 06:53 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Originally, it was supposed to have been the real Red Raven who appeared in the Silver Age stories, and who died in those SUB-M appearances. Later, the real Red Raven appeared, and claimed that the Red Raven who had appeared in those modern stories was a clone with the original's memories. I believe the third Red Raven was supposed to be the original's daughter. 

-Sean

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Posted: 03 Dec 2004 02:23 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Thanks, Sean. Another query - apparently, the duplicate Red Raven appears in FF 405 in the middle of UX 44! I assume it must be some sort of time travel cameo, but can anyone tell me what the deal was?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Dec 2004 06:47 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Also appearing are the Silver Age Black Knight (next in A 10), Blackout (next in NO 19), Blizzard (next in IM 87), Executioner (next in A 10), the original Green Goblin (next in ASM 98), Melter (next in TOS 89), Omega II (next in OU 10), Snowbird (next in ROM 58), Thor/Dargo, and Zarrko. 

Hmmmm. Zarrko. Yeah, sure sounds like a time travel issue. 

One of those where the bad guys were snatched from their place in time to battle our heroes, and someone else, if memory serves, snatched the good guys to save the day. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 03 Dec 2004 08:06 pm    
By Enda80

Conan, as confirmed by letters page to #410, also appeared in that issue.

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Thread 4

Posted: 02 Dec 2004 08:26 am    Post subject: Captain America: Drug Wars Continuity Question
By FlameStrike

I'm trying to figure out how this title is placed where it is in chronology lists for various New Warriors characters. According to Firestar's list, it takes place after New Warriors v1 #46, however, from what I can figure out that doesn't work. 

Based on the fact that Vance Astrovik is listed called "Marvel Boy" in CA:DW, it almost has to occur before NW 43, when he is released from the vault and takes the name "Justice." While I have yet to find confirmation of this, I believe he also started using a different costume at the same time he took the new name. 

Therefore, it needs to occur between NW #15, when they moved thair base to an abandoned factory, and NW #20 when he was arrested for murdering his father. However, with NW 15-17 being one story, all taking place pretty much back to back, and Marvel Boy getting a broken arm in that story, which doesn't heal by the time he's sent to prison, and him not having a cast in CA:DW, there's a problem with it happening in the same continuity with those stories. 

If someone has an explanation for how it has wound up where it has, I would appreciate an answer as I'm trying to store the issues in chronological order. 

Thanks

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 07:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

A quick answer, culled from my old notes about continuity, and no effort at double-checking: 

"Nova's new costume and the presence of an uninjured Vance and Nita suggest that this story occurs during the same apparently short time period between NAMOR 25 and NW 15 in which FF 356 occurs."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Dec 2004 12:16 am    
By FlameStrike

That doesn't quite work, unfortunately, since Nita was injured in NW 14, Vance in 16/17, and their new base was introduced in 15. In fact, the major story of 15-17 starts as the Warriors are being shown arround it for the first time, during which they are called to action. 

That's what's causing most of this confusion for me. The timeline just seems too tight to fit it in.

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Thread 5

Posted: 04 Dec 2004 04:05 pm    Post subject: Sentry anyone?
By jimmyflowers

Anyone know what order the Sentry series (issues 1-5) and the specials X-Men, Fantastic Four, etc. should be read in? 

Thanks!

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Posted: 04 Dec 2004 08:20 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You mean, aside from the flashbacks strung through all ten issues? 

#1-5 can be read straight through. 

Next, the four "team-up" one-shots (FF, Spidey, Hulk, X-Men), which can be read in any order at all. No, really. 

Then finish the series off with "Sentry vs. the Void". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Dec 2004 11:06 pm    
By jimmyflowers

Thanks!

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Thread 6

Posted: 26 Nov 2004 11:50 pm    Post subject: Hank McCoy
By JohnnyChance

Before I start, my keyboard isnt workin properly (its leavin out certain letters and symbols) so forive my spellin. 
Also, I'm new here so sorry if this is posted in the wrong place or even if your supposed to post stuff like this. 

Beast's recent appearances: 
Avengers "Chaos" appearances 
Uncanny X-Men "The End of History" appearance 
Astonishing X-Men "Gifted" appearances 
Avengers Finale appearances 

In Avengers, Hank is still wearing his black leather costume, which he replaced in Astonishing X-Men 1. I don't see anyway that his single panel appearance in UXM could fit into Astonishing X-Men, but it's after X-Men ReLoad, which was the reason he changed his uniform so I'm placing it between the two. In Avengers Finale he's wearing his Astonishing X-Men costume which places it after Astonishing X-Men 1, and again I don't see where it could fit in.
_________________
Pulls: Amazing Spider-Man, Astonishing X-Men, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, New Avengers, New Thunderbolts, Uncanny X-Men

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Posted: 27 Nov 2004 11:51 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Johnny, you may want to check out a previous thread in which we were discussing the Beast's appearances in Disassembled. The current theory is that the Beast changed his costume in ASTONX3 1 during the "three months" between A 503 and A:FINALE. As far as the relative placement of ASTONX3 1-6 and UX 444-449 goes, the Beast's costume provides no clue, as he's in civilian clothes in that one panel of UX 446. As Jeph has noted, both ASTONX3 1-6 and UX 444-449 must occur after X 157-160. The new school semester starts in ASTONX3 1, and clues indicate that the semester is about to start in X 157. Thus I'd be inclined to place ASTONX3 1-6 closer to X 157-160, which would mean that UX 444-449 would follow ASTONX3 6. This would mean that Carol Danvers appears in UX 445 after A 503. And since New X-Men: Academy X #1 is also tied to the start of the semester, I'd be inclined to place the first story arc of that series before UX 444. We also need to consider the placement of Spectacular Spider-Man #15-20 relative to all this. From previous discussions, it seems that those issues belong between X 160 and A 500. 

Currently, I have the following sequence, running from the late "August" of X 157 to UX 449 (which I've placed in September)... 

X 157-160 
Spectacular 15-20 
A 500-503 
ASTONX3 1-6 
NX 1-6 (except perhaps for pages 19-22 of issue #6) 
UX 444-449 

Hank McCoy wouldn't appear in A:FINALE for another couple of months after this. The place of these X-issues in the grander scheme of the MU is still gelling -- developments in FF, Spidey titles, She-Hulk, and New Thunderbolts among other things are having an impact. 

If Jeph or anyone else wants to chime in and confirm or refute the placement above, please do.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 02:14 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

At least there's one good thing that's come out of Chuck Austen's final arc - it helps the sequence proposed by Paul to work better. The repairs we see being done to the mansion in Uncanny X-Men #444 can be attributed to the damage Black Tom did in X-Men #164. Seems to fit nicely to me, provided there are no future problems in regard to Gambit's blindness.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 02:45 am    
By Jim Smith

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Johnny, you may want to check out a previous thread in which we were discussing the Beast's appearances in Disassembled. The current theory is that the Beast changed his costume in ASTONX3 1 during the "three months" between A 503 and A:FINALE. 
<<<

What about Cyclops wearing his Astonishing costume in the Spectacular Spidey Disassembled arc, which occurs well before Avengers #500? Did Scott adopt the new costume before implementing his dress code on the others? 

For that matter, Storm and Nightcrawler are seen in their current costumes in Spectacular, and Rachel appears in hers in MKSpidey #8 (which is set even earlier.) I don't read Uncanny, so I don't know if these costumes provide hard-and-fast reference points.

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 08:56 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I don't understand why we've got the first Claremont arc taking place after the first Austen arc. Claremont's first couple of issues clearly indicate that Storm and her team have not moved back into the Mansion yet (they're described as "visitors" on the scoreboard), and moreover, the new teams aren't in place - Nightcrawler suggests that they should work together more often, and the plot jumps through hoops to ensure that all the other characters are incapacitated by sleeping gas, which is why you get the new team line-up going to England - they're the only ones left. 

It seems to me that UNCANNY #444-449 all take place before X-MEN, where the new teams are announced, leading into ASTONISHING, and then into UNCANNY #450 onwards, by which point Storm's new team line-up has been finalised.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 10:22 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It seems to me that UNCANNY #444-449 all take place before X-MEN, where the new teams are announced...Claremont's first couple of issues clearly indicate that Storm and her team have not moved back into the Mansion yet (they're described as "visitors" on the scoreboard), 
<<<

That's true...they're also noted as "visitors" by "announcer" Dani Moonstar. And Scott asks Logan, who is on the visitors team, "Isn't your place here, with the Institute?" Why would Scott say that if he's put Logan on all the teams already? But while that's a valid point, why the heck is Jay Guthrie in UX 444 if he hasn't arrived yet? Remember that he arrives at the Institute to attend school in X 157.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 10:43 am    
By jephyork
Director

Yeah, Jay Guthrie's appearance is why I placed the Uncanny arc so late too. Some folks have suggested that he's just visiting the school, but he's too happy and upbeat here -- in X #157 he's still moping about Julia's death. 

In regards to "Home" vs "Visitors" -- well, it's a painted scoreboard. It can't change. ONE of the teams HAS to be listed as "Visitors" -- I don't see that as a rationale to assume that Storm's team doesn't live at the mansion. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 10:50 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jay arrives at the Institute to MOVE IN in X157. That doesn't mean he hasn't visited the school beforehand. 

My take is that this is the re-opening of the building, and various X-Men associates - such as Storm's team - have come along to commemorate it. Term hasn't started yet; these are the permanent residents coming back now that the living facilities are completed. That's why there's still building work going on. 

True, Jay's presence is a slight anomaly, but nothing major - Sam and Paige would certainly be invited, and why not bring the family? Especially if Jay's mother was planning to pack him off there. It doesn't pose any real obstacle to placing UX first, which certainly seems to be the writer's intention given that the new teams are expressly not in place. 

After all, Shadowcat's there too, only to leave and come back in ASTONISHING, but does that really pose any problems? She's asked to rejoin, she goes home to Seattle to put her affairs in orders, and she moves into the mansion in ASTONISHING #1. I don't see a difficulty with that. 

As for Jay's demeanour, it's inconsistent with virtually everything for months around. He must just be in a good mood that day. I don't see it as outweighing all the pointers in the opposite direction.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 05:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
True, Jay's presence is a slight anomaly, but nothing major...As for Jay's demeanour, it's inconsistent with virtually everything for months around. He must just be in a good mood that day. I don't see it as outweighing all the pointers in the opposite direction. 
<<<

I don't know about that. I think Jay's chronology provides the more obvious clues. As you note, placing UX 444 before X 157 would create an anomaly in his demeanor. His disposition changes after his talk with Sam in XU2 3/2, which should occur after UX 444. I can't imagine him acting as happy and carefree as he does in UX 444 before X 157. 

And if Jay was at Xavier's to help celebrate the re-opening of the Institute (as you theorize was the case in UX 444) before he arrives for classes in X 157, then why does he not know who Scott Summers is in X 157? (Jay: "Who's Scott Summers?" Havok: "Scott's the new headmaster of the school...") And why would Jay need to be introduced to Iceman in X 157? ("Josh, this is Bobby Drake, Iceman.") And why wouldn't he be sure about the Juggernaut's identity in X 157? ("Isn't that the Juggernaut?") And why doesn't he recognize Storm in X 157? ("She was hot. Who was she?") Jay gets a tour of the place in X 157 and it really seems like he's never been to the Institute before. It just doesn't make sense to have a carefree Jay romping around the Institute only to return reticent about attending a school that he doesn't seem to recognize and to meet folks he's presumably already met. 

Jay's chronology seems to make sense if we put the stories in this order: 
X 157-160 
XU2 3/2 
NX 1-6 
UX 444-449 

It seems obvious here that we have conflicting chronological references, as we seem to be getting more and more from Marvel these days. In this case, we have the baseball discussion of "home" and "visitors" versus the comings and goings of Jay Guthrie. What other clues can we add to either side of the argument? And how do we explain away the anomalies of the "losing" argument?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 06:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

There will be anomalies either way; given that we're dealing with the chronologies of the X-Men titles, I'm inclined to place far more weight on indications relating to the X-Men themselves, rather than a couple of panels featuring a character from another book entirely. All the references to the current team line-ups in the UX stories indicate that the reshuffle has not yet taken place - note Cyclops querying why Wolverine is playing for Storm's team when his place is "here at the Institute", or words to that effect. Nightcrawler's comment that they should work together more often is also entirely inconsistent with him already being on a permanent team with Storm. 

And as I say, I think Jay being cheerful in a very brief scene is something that can easily be dismissed. He doesn't have to be unrelentingly miserable for the entire period, it just has to be his prevailing mood.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 08:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

Quote: 
>>>
And as I say, I think Jay being cheerful in a very brief scene is something that can easily be dismissed. He doesn't have to be unrelentingly miserable for the entire period, it just has to be his prevailing mood. 
<<<

So would we assume that Jay was visiting the Institute in UX 444 and that whatever medication he was on to perk him up made him forget meeting (or knowing about) Cyclops, Iceman, Juggernaut, and details about the Institute itself?  Well, it's an explanation...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 09:31 am    
By jephyork
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Cyclops querying why Wolverine is playing for Storm's team when his place is "here at the Institute" 
<<<

...If Wolverine's "place" has already been chosen in UX #444 -- wouldn't that indicate that this is AFTER Cyclops placed Wolvie on his squad -- and so AFTER X #157 and Astonishing v3 #1? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 10:21 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

No, because Wolverine was always primarily with the Institute team. He was only a sporadic guest star in X-TREME. The point of the line is that it indicates that Storm's team AREN'T based at the mansion at that stage, which places it unequivocally before Austen's X-MEN.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 11:11 am    
By jephyork
Director

So what you're saying is, prior to ReLoad, Wolvie's place was at the Institute. And what I'm saying is, after ReLoad, Wolvie's place is at the Institute. 

So really, the line isn't much of an indicator of *anything*. 

And for a team who "clearly isn't based out of the mansion yet" -- Sage has an entire chamber at the mansion, an entire grain silo, expressly dedicated to her computer set-ups. 

I don't think the presented evidence is very strong, quite frankly. It seems to have been generally and vaguely INTENDED to be read the way you indicate, but things can very easily be read a different way. 

And if they CAN be read in a different way -- and this way makes secondary characters' chronologies flow more smoothly (Jay Guthrie AND Shadowcat) -- why not make the change? 

Really, whose chronology does it actively HURT to place UX #444 after X #164? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 05:42 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So what you're saying is, prior to ReLoad, Wolvie's place was at the Institute. And what I'm saying is, after ReLoad, Wolvie's place is at the Institute. 

So really, the line isn't much of an indicator of *anything*. 
<<<


I disagree. Let's go through the references in UX 444: 

1. The scoreboard describes Storm's team as the visitors. The "home/visitors" divide is also repeated, several times, by Dani and Xi'an in their commentary. 

2. Scott's line: "Why are you on Storm's team, Wolverine? Isn't your place here, with the Institute?" That makes absolutely no sense if Storm's team are also at the Institute. It only works if they AREN'T based there. 

3. Jay is shown smiling in precisely one panel - page 10 panel 3. His only line of dialogue is to grumble and bitch at Cannonball. 

4. After Nightcrawler, Storm and Wolverine's session in the Danger Room, Nightcrawler says "Perhaps we should work together more often, ja?" Why would he say that if it's after X 157 and they're already assigned to the same team? 

5. Wolverine then asks Storm to "tell me more about this XSE." It's a conversation that only makes sense if she hasn't been around much and this is the first real chance he's had to raise the subject. 

6. There is a room full of computers which is being used by Sage. It's described as "Sage's carriage house" in a caption next issue. I don't see that as a major problem, though. Storm's team are evidently planning to return to the Institute, so it makes sense that the rebuilt complex includes facilities for them. It doesn't mean that they've actually moved in yet, and all the internal evidence suggests they haven't. 

Storm's team aren't living at the Mansion, from the majority of dialogue and art references. The new teams aren't in place. Wolverine hasn't been able to find out any details about the XSE until now. It simply makes no sense for this to take place after X 157. 

I don't see how this placement causes any difficulties for Shadowcat. X 157 obviously takes place before ASTONISHING 1, since the teams are assigned in X 157 and are in place by ASTONISH 1. So we already know that she leaves the Mansion and returns. 

Jay smiles in one panel. I agree that it's a glitch, but I don't see how one panel of Jay smiling is any kind of major problem. So he smiled for three seconds in a period of three months - big deal. Besides, I think the indications of what the writers intended are strong, clear and overwhelming. It would take something much more problematic than Jay smiling to override that, in my book.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 11:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Jay smiles in one panel. I agree that it's a glitch, but I don't see how one panel of Jay smiling is any kind of major problem. So he smiled for three seconds in a period of three months - big deal. Besides, I think the indications of what the writers intended are strong, clear and overwhelming. It would take something much more problematic than Jay smiling to override that, in my book. 
<<<

Oh, it's more than a smile. The guy is downright frolicking, delighting in horsing around and mugging for the camera. 

And, Paul, you haven't addressed Jay's introduction to the Institute and the X-Men in UX 444 -- strong indicators that UX 444 was his first time there. To be fair, we need evidence from UX 444 to compare against your interpretations of X 157. Now, perhaps Jay was too busy fooling around to take a tour in X 157, and maybe he didn't recognize "Scott Summers" in UX 444 because he may have only known "Cyclops" as headmaster, and maybe given the crowd of folks around in X 157, he didn't get a chance to meet Bobby or see Cain. I'm tryin' here... 


Quote: 
>>>
"Perhaps we should work together more often, ja?"  
<<<

Tongue-in-cheek remark made by Kurt, knowing that he and Storm and Logan were going to be spending lots of time on the same team?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 06:15 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Who's to say that Jay went on a tour of the building in UX 444? Besides, his tour in X 157 consists of him being shown various facilities - as the building is still under construction in UX 444, those facilities may not have been there to show him. 

I don't see any problem with Jay being introduced to Scott in X 157. There's no evidence that Jay met Scott in UX 444. There are tons of people living at the Institute - Jay can't have been introduced to all of them, and Scott's a busy man. He's far more likely to have spent his time catching up with those characters he already knows (ie, the X-Men who visited during "She Lies With Angels", and some of the former New Mutants). 

Besides, the X-Men seem to have a thing for dragging all new students on redundant tours of the building. Jay gets shown round the place twice, in X 157 and NEW X-MEN 1. The NX 1 tour also has Surge there, despite the fact that she's been living there for months, was present during the reconstruction, and protests that the whole thing is a waste of time. But (Scott being Scott, presumably) everyone has to go on another tour of the building even though it's pointless.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 11:37 am    
By jephyork 
Director

Okay, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but it seems that I just interpret things differently on a number of points. 

Quote: 
>>>
1. The scoreboard describes Storm's team as the visitors. The "home/visitors" divide is also repeated, several times, by Dani and Xi'an in their commentary. 
<<<

First of all -- by "Storm's team" I assume you mean the old X-Treme team. However, the fact that Nightcrawler is on Storm's side here, and Bishop is the umpire (and therefore neutral), says to me that the baseball lineups aren't as simple and straightforward as "X-Treme X-Men vs. regular X-Men". There's some fluidity here. 

Also: I was always under the impression that the X-Treme Team had been living at the mansion during the rebuilding -- since XX #46, which is a considerable time. My take on the "Home vs. Vistors" labels is -- the scoreboard was painted to read "Home/Vistors", so SOMEone's got to be labelled "the 'visiting' team" -- and the X-Treme Team are the ones who've been living away from the mansion until recently, so they get the label. It doesn't necessarily indicate that they're STILL living away -- just that they DID live away. 

And yes, Dani refers to them as "the Visitors", but she's really into her role of play-by-play announcer, and she's being formal -- referring to Kitty as "starting pitcher", Rachel as "reliever", etc. Since the baseball teams don't actually have names, there's no way to formally refer to them but the scoreboard's designation of "Home/Visitor". 


Quote: 
>>>
2. Scott's line: "Why are you on Storm's team, Wolverine? Isn't your place here, with the Institute?" That makes absolutely no sense if Storm's team are also at the Institute. It only works if they AREN'T based there. 
<<<

Except that "Storm's team" is the XSE. A *globally* authorized mutant police force. They may be *based* out of the mansion, but their jurisdiction is much larger than that. 

Your point would work if Cyclops had said "isn't your place here, AT the Institute". But he didn't -- he said "with". Meaning, "affiliated with". Also, he used "Institute" -- meaning, the school organization -- rather than "mansion", meaning the building itself. 

"Isn't your place with the Institute" is a far different question than "isn't your place at the mansion". 

If Cyclops' team is focused on the school -- the Institute and its students -- and Storm's team is focused on global mutant policing -- then Cyclops could easily describe Logan's supposed loyalties as "with the Institute", even though both teams live in the same building. 

"Are you with the Institute, or are you with the XSE?" 

Quote: 
>>>
3. Jay is shown smiling in precisely one panel - page 10 panel 3. His only line of dialogue is to grumble and bitch at Cannonball. 
<<<

Point taken. However, it's Jay's PRESENCE that I'm disputing -- versus his introduction to the mansion and school in X #157. 


Quote:
>>> 
4. After Nightcrawler, Storm and Wolverine's session in the Danger Room, Nightcrawler says "Perhaps we should work together more often, ja?" Why would he say that if it's after X 157 and they're already assigned to the same team? 
<<<

As Paul B. offered -- tongue-in-cheek comment, poking fun at the notion that they WILL be working together from now on. 

See, you seem to be arguing that the Uncanny roster fell together fairly organically. Nightcrawler and Wolverine happened to like working with Storm, and happened to evade the Fury's sleep gas, so they stayed with her squad and joined the XSE. However, this "organic meshing" concept flies in the face of X #157's concept that Cyclops *assigned all the teams* -- and that, in particular, Nightcrawler wasn't too happy about it. 

In X #157 his reaction is "I really think I'd be much happier--". If we place UX #444 *before* that, where Nightcrawler actually *suggests* to Storm that they work together, it doesn't work. Why would he be upset about being assigned to a team he wanted to work with? 

However, if X #157 is placed first -- Nightcrawler unhappily assigned to Storm's unit -- and his comment in UX #444 is him being coy, trying to cheerfully make the best of it -- things flow. This would also explain why he's on Storm's side in the baseball game -- he's trying to get used to the idea of working on that team. 

Also, in the middle of UX #444, Sage assigns the XSE some missions -- and Nightcrawler and Wolverine are among those sent out. They're already XSE members, then -- they have badges and everything. Which indicates that Nightcrawler's membership is official -- which, since he wasn't offered an XSE badge in XX #46, indicates that he was *assigned to this team* sometime prior to UX #444. 

Say, in X #157. 


Quote: 
>>>
5. Wolverine then asks Storm to "tell me more about this XSE." It's a conversation that only makes sense if she hasn't been around much and this is the first real chance he's had to raise the subject. 
<<<

Or if HE hasn't been around much. Remember, he's assigned to "all the teams" according to X #157, and appears in multiple solo books and guest shots every month. Odds are he hasn't had the TIME to talk to Storm in-depth, about anything. 


Quote: 
>>>
Storm's team aren't living at the Mansion, from the majority of dialogue and art references. 
<<<

"Living", or "based"? "Mansion" or "Institute"? They've been "living at the mansion" since XX #46, even if they're not "based" there ... and I discussed "mansion" vs. "institute" above. 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't see how this placement causes any difficulties for Shadowcat. 
<<<

Really, none -- you're right, X #157 establishes that she goes home and comes back. However, her hairstyle here is NOT the one we see in X #157 -- the long, straight look she presumably goes back to Chicago with -- it's the short curly hair we see her arrive back at the mansion with, in Astonishing v3 #1. 

Obviously, all four X-books started out with the intent of "coming first". Astonishing #1 gave out the costumes, X #157 gave out the team assignments. New X-Men gave the students their welcome tour of the school even though Astonishing gave them their first assembly. Lockheed arrived in Astonishing #2 even though he showed up in X #157 and UX #444. And Uncanny showed rather vague scenes of Nightcrawler and Wolverine expressing desire to work with Storm's team. 

Obviously they can't all be first. And since -- in my eyes, at least -- the references in Uncanny are much vaguer and subtler than the references in X #157 -- they're the ones that should get brushed over, explained away, or outright ignored. 

There are references in UX #444 that fit both *before* X #157 and *after X #164*. The work on one wing of the building could be rebuilding the mansion -- or patching up from Black Tom's attack. Gambit's medical checkup could be a routine appointment to check out his newly-returned powers, or it could be a check-up for his injured eyes and his still-fluctuating powers. (He's obviously not *totally* blind by X #164, as he removed the bandage and saw the card in his hand, so he could appear after that in UX #444 without his bandages.) 

I'm sure we could go back and forth on this all day, though -- and I think we're getting close to the "going in circles" point -- so would anyone ELSE like to weigh in with their interpretations? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 12:32 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Also what of that recent X-Men Unlimited v2 story with Cannonball and Josh? Josh appears to be living at the mansion -- and Cannonball doesn't have a broken leg. 

That broken leg, suffered in UX #445, puts him out of action and causes him to leave the team for a bit and go buy a house in Kentucky -- where we pick him up in X-Force v2. 

Granted, if and when Sam's leg heals and he rejoins the team at the mansion, there'll be opportunities to place this story -- but right now, this story seems to support the notion that Jay came to live at the mansion (X #157) prior to the storyline that broke Sam's leg (UX #444-447). 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2004 12:34 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
First of all -- by "Storm's team" I assume you mean the old X-Treme team. However, the fact that Nightcrawler is on Storm's side here, and Bishop is the umpire (and therefore neutral), says to me that the baseball lineups aren't as simple and straightforward as "X-Treme X-Men vs. regular X-Men". There's some fluidity here. 
<<<

There'd have to be - some of the Institute guys would have to play for Storm's team in order to make up the numbers. But Scott's still clearly drawing a distinction between Storm's team and the Institute team. 


Quote: 
>>>
Your point would work if Cyclops had said "isn't your place here, AT the Institute". But he didn't -- he said "with". Meaning, "affiliated with". Also, he used "Institute" -- meaning, the school organization -- rather than "mansion", meaning the building itself. 
<<<

Disagree - as we see later in the issue, Wolverine's already got an XSE badge, so that distinction wouldn't make sense. And Scott's line is "Isn't your place HERE, with the Institute?" Scott obviously sees that as a reason why Wolverine's choice of team is odd. By implication, Storm's team are not "here, with the Institute." 

I can grant that other interpretations of the line are possible if you're trying to explain it away, but I just don't see how the primary interpretation can be anything other than the one I've been arguing for. The implication seems quite clear to me - not only are Storm's team not "with the Institute" but, generally speaking, they're not "here"! 


Quote: 
>>>
Point taken. However, it's Jay's PRESENCE that I'm disputing -- versus his introduction to the mansion and school in X #157. 
<<<

But again, I don't see why that's a problem. X 157 doesn't have to be Jay's first visit to the building. It's Jay arriving with a view to moving in and starting his studies there. 


Quote: 
>>>
As Paul B. offered -- tongue-in-cheek comment, poking fun at the notion that they WILL be working together from now on. 
<<<

This is a possible reading, yes, but only if you're trying to explain it away. It's not the natural reading of the line. 


Quote: 
>>>
However, this "organic meshing" concept flies in the face of X #157's concept that Cyclops *assigned all the teams* -- and that, in particular, Nightcrawler wasn't too happy about it. 
<<<

No, it doesn't. UX 444-447 has a particular team who end up working together through happenstance. Scott then makes it permanent, presumably because he thought they worked well. 

There's no contradiction between Kurt's comments in UX 444 and X 157. All Kurt says in UX 444 is "Perhaps we should work together more often?", directed to Storm and Wolverine. He says nothing about the rest of the team. Maybe Kurt just means the teams should join forces more often. Maybe he was thinking of Storm coming back and joining his team. Tons of possibilities, all entirely consistent with both UX 444 and X 157. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, in the middle of UX #444, Sage assigns the XSE some missions -- and Nightcrawler and Wolverine are among those sent out. They're already XSE members, then -- they have badges and everything. 
<<<

Ah, but no. You're assuming that only Storm's team have XSE badges. But nobody's ever said that. In fact, I'm pretty much convinced that that's NOT what Claremont intends - the story is obviously written on the assumption that Kurt is not yet on Storm's team. Yet he's got a badge. Wolverine doesn't even know what the XSE is, and Scott says he isn't on Storm's team, yet he's got a badge. 

So it's NOT just Storm's team who have XSE badges, and the fact that Kurt has one doesn't take us anywhere. 


Quote: 
>>>
They've been "living at the mansion" since XX #46, even if they're not "based" there ... and I discussed "mansion" vs. "institute" above. 
<<<

I disagree. XX 46 simply showed them helping out after the Institute was destroyed. Besides, they couldn't move in at that point - it's a pile of rubble! They might have taken the decision to return to the Institute once it was rebuilt, but that's very different from actually moving in. 


Quote: 
>>>
However, her hairstyle here is NOT the one we see in X #157 -- the long, straight look she presumably goes back to Chicago with -- it's the short curly hair we see her arrive back at the mansion with, in Astonishing v3 #1. 
<<<

...? Kitty has straight hair in ASTONISHING, not curly. Her hair in UX 444 is just plain wrong - it's Alan Davis working from outdated references. 


Quote: 
>>>
Gambit's medical checkup could be a routine appointment to check out his newly-returned powers, or it could be a check-up for his injured eyes and his still-fluctuating powers. 
<<<

I'm not buying that at all, I'm afraid. 

Beast: "I'm sorry, Gambit. But both Storm and I feel you need more time in rehab. Just to be sure your restored powers are as 'perfect' as you claim." His blindness has nothing to do with the stability of his powers. If the stability of his restored powers is a concern, it would have been a concern since he got them back, and he wouldn't have been put on a team. The line only makes sense if he hasn't been back in action since getting his powers back. 

But thanks for flagging up this powerful reason why UX 444 must take place before X 157!  

I agree that all of the books seem to think that they're happening first, and that some explaining away is necessary. However, for the various reasons I've given, I think UX 444 fits far more naturally before X 157. It seems clearly written on the assumption that the teams are NOT yet in place. The arguments against this interpretation seem to consist heavily of reasons why the story can be explained away as fitting into a different sequence, but very few reasons why it SHOULD be. Moving UX 444 after X 157 requires a lot of references in UX 444 to be twisted and distorted. Placing it before seems to cause almost no problems with later stories, save for the trivial issue of Jay Guthrie smiling!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 12:50 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The trivial issue of Jay Guthrie BEING THERE and smiling, yes. 

And you're right -- I'm not arguing that any of my explanations are "the natural readings" of the lines. I explicitly said that I'm trying to "brush over, explain away, or outright ignore" them. 

How many times have we had to explain away conflicting references? It happens a lot. We had to basically ignore an outright reference to the Riot at Xavier's in UX #422 because it didn't work quite right. 

Of course Claremont intended UX #444 to come first. Austen also intended X #157 to come first, and Whedon intended ASTONX3 #1 to come first. 

I stand by the points I've made -- I just feel that the Uncanny references are very vague, and very easily interpreted as something else -- whereas the X-Men and Astonishing references are more concrete and less easily explained. 

Beyond that, we may have to agree to disagree here. And I'm hoping other folks will weigh in on this topic, to shed light on their impressions. 

As to your specific points: 

1 - the mansion was NOT a "pile of rubble" for all of XX #46. We see the superstructure being substantially rebuilt over the course of the issue, and by the end it has (at least!) a functioning kitchen and dining room. 

2 - it could be argued that Gambit hid his fluctuating powers from everyone in order to be placed on a team -- or didn't KNOW they were unreliable -- and AFTER they literally blew up in his face, Storm and Beast ordered him into rehab. I know, I know, another twisting of the original meaning of the line, but again one that I think works. His powers didn't display any problems in XX #46 -- and he's not the type to display weakness -- so why would Storm KNOW he had problems, unless he had an accident? 

-Jeph! 
Oh, PS - thanks for catching my Astonishing Kitty hair gaffe. It's the only book I'm working from memory on. Still, wouldn't you say that Kitty's leather look in X #157 is quite different from her Astonishing and Uncanny looks?

Last edited by jephyork on 30 Nov 2004 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 12:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Argument supporting Jeph: 

Just to reiterate -- Josh "Jay" Guthrie's chronology makes SO much more sense if X 157 occurs before UX 444. 

In X 157... 

1) He's dropped off at the Institute and says, "Mom...if I had wanted to come to 'mutant school,' I would have said so." Not the attitude of someone who was already there horsing around. 

2) His mother tells him "it's all right to be proud of what you are, and at the same time feel ashamed." He answers, in denial, "I am not ashamed!" It seems to make more sense for him to be strutting in UX 444 after this. 

3) He walks through the front door and says, "On, man, look at this zoo." As if it's his first impression of the place. 

4) He meets Alex and Sammy for the first time. The dialog establishes this firmly. 

5) When Scott's name is mentioned, he says, "Who's Scott Summers?" Alex and Sammy explain and he doesn't appear to show any sign of having met or seen the "headmaster" with "eye powers." 

6) He asks, "Isn't that the Juggernaut? I've seen him on the news." Apparently not in person...that's another person he wouldn't have bumped into in UX 444 if that issue came before. 

7) He is introduced to Iceman and upon seeing him, he remarks "another name that works." Chalk up another first meeting. 

8) After seeing Storm, he says, "She was hot. Who was she?" Sammy answers "That was Ororo -- Storm." Score another one; gee, just who did Josh see in UX 444 if that came earlier? 

In X 158, which follows directly from X 157... 

1) After being called "Josh" by everyone in X 157, he tells Sammy, "Call me 'Jay,' Sammy. My life as 'Josh' is over. 'Jay' is what the guys in my band call me." As if he's known as "Jay" only among his bandmates; note that he didn't say that's what his brother calls him. From this point on, people around the Institute call him "Jay." In UX 444, Sam calls him "Jay." (Sam also calls him "Jay" in XU2 3/2, which obviously should occur after X 157.) 

If we decide to place X 157-160 after UX 444-449, we're going to have to explain away his presence at the Institute before arriving to attend school there. At this presumed earlier visit to the Institute, he flies around, mugging for cameras, happy, and seemingly secure in his mutant identity. He doesn't meet and apparently doesn't see or hear first-hand about Scott, Alex, Sammy, Bobby, Cain, and Ororo, and he doesn't really pay much attention at all to the facility. Ugh. 


Neutral argument: 

The "home" and "visitors" designations can be interpreted any way you want. The XSE against others, or Scott-designated teams. Nightcrawler being on the XSE team -- maybe because this was his new assigned team after X 157, or maybe because he himself signed up for the XSE before X 157. Or maybe he just felt like it; this is a friendly game, not a Danger Room session. 

Argument supporting Paul O.: 

Scott tells Logan in UX 444, "Why are you on Storm's team, Wolverine? Isn't your place here, with the Institute?" Logan answers, "I make my own place, bub." If this scene occurs after X 157, Scott would know that Logan belongs on every team, since that's what he himself decided. Logan should have responded, "Well, Cyke. Since you put me on every blasted team, I can pick and choose my own place for this game." But he didn't. This dialog really doesn't wash if X 157 occurs before this point. Maybe Scott even gets the idea to put Logan on Storm's team (as well as his own) from this very encounter! 

Gambit is playing left field in X 157. That's rather difficult if he's blind or even recovering from blindness. It's easy to see Remy here before X 157. The jury's still out on how his blindness affects his chronology overall. 


I see both sides of the argument, although I favor X 157 before UX 444 for Jay's sake. However, seeing two sides, I offer a compromise that should satisfy most concerns. How about this for relative placement? 

UX 444 (1-7) -- the baseball scene 
X 157-160 
UX 444 (8-23)-449 

There is NO reason to believe that pages 8-22 of UX 444 occur on the same day as the baseball scene on pages 1-7. The folks at the Institute are swimming and working and touring students around after page 7, and this is the segment in which Jay Guthrie mugs for those cameras. Jay is NOT in the baseball scene. So we can have Jay in X 157-158 before UX 444 (yes!), AND we can have that Scott and Logan conversation and Gambit's sighted fielding occur before X 157 (yes!) 

We could explain the construction at the Institute on page 8 of UX 444 as repairs of the damage wrought in X 160. We could explain Gambit's medical examination by the Beast as being partially for his sight, and it would make sense for him to be without a bandage in this context. 

What do you say, guys?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 12:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

In the time it took Paul B. to post his last argument, I edited my most recent post to include specific rebuttals to some of Paul O.'s points. If you've already read my post -- you may need to check it out again. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 01:04 pm    
By jephyork 
Director

Okay, now I've *read* Paul B.'s post. And while it still doesn't solve Paul O's points about Nightcrawler's Danger Room comments later in UX #444 -- it works for me. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 01:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
In the time it took Paul B. to post his last argument, I edited my most recent post to include specific rebuttals to some of Paul O.'s points. If you've already read my post -- you may need to check it out again. 
<<<


But is there anything wrong with splitting UX 444?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2004 01:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Agh. The trials of posting at the same time... 

Paul O., what do you think? If the "tongue-in-cheek" theory works for Kurt's Danger Room comment, are you okay?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 01:39 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

That DOES work rather better. However, I don't see a major problem with the mere fact of Jay BEING there in UX 444, so the point of doing this would be to achieve consistency with his character arc. 

If that's the aim, then we have to shoehorn some other stories into the same gap. First up is XU2 3/2, the Cannonball/Icarus "bonding moment" story. Jay is still sulking in that story, and the other students are commenting on it. So that would logically be before his appearance in UX 444 too. 

But XU2 3/2 takes place after term is underway - there are kids all over the place, and there's a reference to "a bunch of girls from flying class." If that's the case, then it also needs to follow the first few issues of New X-Men. The first apparent gap would fall between pages 19-20 of NEW X-MEN #3, since that's the first night after Jay acquires the "Icarus" codename which is used in XU2 3/2 (albeit in the title, not the dialogue). 

Anyhow, even by the time of NEW X-MEN #1, Emma is wearing her Whedon/Cassaday uniform. So we're apparently after the early issues of ASTONISHING as well... (Which is already implicit in the fact that term is underway in XU2 3/2, since ASTONX3 1 has a start-of-term assembly.) 

Oh, and Gambit appears in one panel of NEW X-MEN #3 - and he's not blindfolded. So we'd also need to shoehorn a load of other X-MEN stories into the gap up until the point where Gambit gets his sight back. Plus ROGUE #1-6, since he's blind there too. 

You get my point - this seems an awful lot of hassle just to explain away the fact that Jay is smiling!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 02:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

If we do split this up -- at what point would we place the latter half of UX #444? 

Does the fact that Gambit isn't wearing his bandages in the medical exam mean that this is after X #164 -- the issue where he gets at least partial sight back? Or is he completely blind during the exam, and the bandages are only off so the Beast can examine his eyes? 

If we use the "partial sight" rationale, we'd be shovelling a lot of books between pages of UX #444 not just because of Jay Guthrie's attitude -- but because of Gambit and his sight. And yes, I'm prepared to do that. 

Either way, we also have to deal with Gambit's non-bandaged appearance in NX #3. X #157-160 must occur before NX #1 thanks to Jay Guthrie's arrival, so Gambit has already been injured by NX #1 -- but can we claim that X #161-164 *also* occur before NX #1, and that he has partial sight back by NX #3? 

Alternately, are there any gaps in NX #1-3 where X #161-164 can occur, to give Gambit partial sight by the time of NX #3? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2004 05:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
You get my point - this seems an awful lot of hassle just to explain away the fact that Jay is smiling! 
<<<

Oh, come now. We're not just dealing with smiling here, as I've pointed out repeatedly. Jay arrives at the school for the very first time in X 157. The evidence is clear. 

And...it's really no "hassle" at all. Putting a gap in a comic is second nature for us. And if a gap exists, you can put any number of appearances in it if it suits the needs of chronology. It's no more awkward to have several stories show up between pages 7 and 8 of UX 444 than it is to have one story in that gap, IMHO. 


Quote: 
>>>
But XU2 3/2 takes place after term is underway - there are kids all over the place, and there's a reference to "a bunch of girls from flying class." If that's the case, then it also needs to follow the first few issues of New X-Men. The first apparent gap would fall between pages 19-20 of NEW X-MEN #3, since that's the first night after Jay acquires the "Icarus" codename which is used in XU2 3/2 (albeit in the title, not the dialogue). 
<<< 


That's a good spot -- tight, but good. I placed XU2 3/2 between pages 17 and 18 of NX 2. By this time the students have gathered at the school and their class schedules are probably determined, even if classes may not actually begin until after the orientation assembly at the end of NX 2. So the reference to classmates from "flying class" may be folks scheduled to be in that class. 


Quote: 
>>>
Alternately, are there any gaps in NX #1-3 where X #161-164 can occur, to give Gambit partial sight by the time of NX #3?  
<<<


True, Gambit is shown without a bandage in NX 3, but we really don't know what the status of his sight is in that issue; he's just standing there holding his staff on his shoulder. Is there any real reason to place X 161-164 (in which he is also not bandaged) before NX 3? 

We do know, however, that the current arc in ROGUE3 must occur between X 160 and NX 3 because the bandaged Gambit appears in that arc. 

I see things shaping up as follows: 

First, we have the "summer" baseball scene from UX 444 (1-7). 

Then, we have "August" setting of X 157-160. Students gather to attend the Institute and Gambit is blinded. 

Then, Beast makes his last Morrison outfit appearance in A 503. After that, he adopts the new costume in ASTONX3 1-6, where the teams are set and we see a school orientation. 

While that's going on, ROGUE3 1-(?) is happening. So far, no one from ASTONX3 1-6 appears in ROGUE3, so no conflict there...yet. 

Then, we have NX 1-6 (and XU2 3/2) close on the heels of ASTONX3 1-6. There, we see another orientation and the start of classes. 

Then we might place X 161-164, in which the Institute is damaged, followed closely by UX 444 (8-23)-449, in which we may see repairs. We may see the same full moon in those two stories. (Although this would mean that Jay is "smiling" very soon after the death of his roomate, Sammy. Perhaps we have a month between X 164 and page 8 of UX 444 and it's taking a while to get repairs done.)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 06:03 pm    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Does the fact that Gambit isn't wearing his bandages in the medical exam mean that this is after X #164 -- the issue where he gets at least partial sight back? Or is he completely blind during the exam, and the bandages are only off so the Beast can examine his eyes? 
<<<

He can't be partially sighted in that scene - he's talking about going back into the active team, and he's being warned off on the grounds that his powers are unstable. The scene doesn't make any sense if he's sight-impaired.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 06:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

He may be just recovered from the temporary blindness and his unstable powers are still an issue. This, along with a suitable length of time for Jay to recover from his roomate's death, may suggest placement of UX 444 (8-23) a while after X 161-164. And again, we may be seeing lengthy repairs on UX 444 page 8 from the damage in X 164. 

We may end up having a gap of a couple of months between pages 7 and 8 of UX 444, but if we're dealing with that length of time, that stretches even the "tongue in cheek" explanation for Kurt's comment in the Danger Room.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 06:49 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Oh, come now. We're not just dealing with smiling here, as I've pointed out repeatedly. Jay arrives at the school for the very first time in X 157. The evidence is clear. 
<<<

I agree that's the intention. (In fact, it's pretty much confirmed in UX 445, where Sam says that Jay has been enrolled at the school and hates it.) 

Basically, there's clearly a clash where the UX storyline thinks the X-Men teams haven't been formally reassigned yet, which obviously places it before X 157. But it also thinks that Jay is at the school, which would imply that it takes place afterwards. When it comes to sequencing X-Men titles, I'm much more inclined to place weight on references involving the X-Men themselves, rather than characters from satellite books. Jay's presence is so easily explained away that I don't see it as a reason to disrupt the weight of evidence based on the X-Men themselves. 

We're now talking, it seems, about inserting months of action between pages 7 and 8 of UX 444. But that causes several more problems. 

* You've got page 8 onwards taking place way after Avengers Disassembled, but on page 9, Sage seems to be able to access the Avengers' database. 

* On page 10, the XSE has been "recently announced", despite the deal now being months and months in the past. 

* On page 11, Gambit's medical examination scene no longer makes sense - why are they babbling on about "your restored powers" when he's had then back for months? This is clearly intended to precede Gambit's return to an active roster after regaining his powers. There's no other way of reading that dialogue. This strikes me as a huge problem with the "insert several months" approach. 

* On page 14, despite all this extra time, Wolverine STILL hasn't found time to ask about the XSE before now - even though it dates back to the penultimate arc in X-TREME! And, of course, Nightcrawler is proposing working together, which implies that they're not already doing so. 

* These events lead directly into UX 446, where Nightcrawler says to Sage that "I don't know you that well." The longer they've been living together, the more of a stretch this becomes. 

Incidentally, as regards the membership of the XSE, a list of members is included in the letters column of UX 446. It's a mixture of X-TREME characters and UX characters. For some reason, Magma is listed as a member. In any event, the list doesn't match up with any team roster. 

True enough, my approach is inconsistent with Jay's appearances. But trivially so - nothing in X 157 precludes the possibility that he's been to the mansion before. He doesn't recognise a few characters, but then we didn't see him meet them in UX 444. But inserting all that extra time causes problems for Gambit's blindness, and results in a "What is the XSE/should we work together" scene that has to be effectively written off. 

I'm much more inclined to sequence the X-Men books by the X-Men's references, rather than give precedence to the continuity of a minor character like Jay Guthrie. He does nothing of importance in UX 444 and I just don't see how giving precedence to his intended sequence of appearances is worth the damage it causes to the rest of the story. 


Quote: 
>>>
True, Gambit is shown without a bandage in NX 3, but we really don't know what the status of his sight is in that issue; he's just standing there holding his staff on his shoulder. Is there any real reason to place X 161-164 (in which he is also not bandaged) before NX 3? 
<<<

Yes - Gambit IS bandaged in those issues! In X 161, he's bandaged and apparently still bedridden. In X 163, Gambit starts off with his bandages and removes them, saying that he's "had enough of this rehab business" and that "if [Annie's] not here to tell me not to, then my bandages can come [off.]" He then has a vision and runs off to get help without having time to reapply his bandages (even though subsequent dialogue makes clear that he's still effectively blind). X 164 continues directly, and Gambit disappears halfway through the issue. He never gets an opportunity to reapply his bandages. 

In any event, in X 163, he's removing the bandages that he's had on since he was blinded, on medical orders. He certainly wouldn't be lounging around the staff room in NX 3 without wearing the bandages, if he was still in rehab and functionally blind. It seems awfully unlikely that Gambit was merrily stumbling around the mansion without the bandages for a few weeks before Annie suddenly decided to blindfold him.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 11:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I agree that's the intention. (In fact, it's pretty much confirmed in UX 445, where Sam says that Jay has been enrolled at the school and hates it.)  
<<<

Ah, another piece of the puzzle. We see Jay Guthrie mugging for the camera at (or just outside) the Institute in UX 444. The next day, in UX 445, we see this conversation: 
Bishop: "Hey, Sam, apropos of nothing special -- when do you Guthries get to form your own team of X-Men?" (Bishop may have seen Jay flying around and asked someone about his identity and learned he was Sam's brother, thus prompting this question.) 
Rachel: "Yeah! How many of you are active mutants?" 
Sam: "Well, I got a brother with wings, can you believe it?" (Not necessarily realizing that Bishop may know about Jay, as they were not formally introduced, at least in Sam's presence.) 
Rachel: "Not to mention your sisters [Paige and Joelle]. How's your mom feel with all that?" 
Sam: "She enrolled Jay at the Institute. And of course he totally hates it. Which means he hates me." (I guess Sam didn't catch that infamous one-panel smile of Jay's in UX 444. All Sam caught then was flak from Jay --"You're not the boss of me, not now, not ever!") 
Rachel: "He'll get over it." 
Sam: "Oh man, you do not want to know how mama reacted when she saw us on TV. When she called, I felt like a kid again. On my way out to the woodshed." (This indicates that Sam's mom is not at the Institute at this point. It's pretty clear that she dropped Jay off and instructed Sam to look after him.) 

Now, how can we have Jay's arrival at the Institute in X 157 occur after this point? Believe me, I've been trying to come up with an answer that makes sense, and I don't find it as easily explainable as you feel it is. Can someone provide a well reasoned scenario that would make X 157 work after UX 449? A simple "just visiting" answer won't cut it. Remember, too, the timing that must be involved. In UX 444, the Institute is nearly completed (or repaired, depending on your theory) and there are students taking a tour of the Danger Room, so it's either just before the start of the semester or sometime into the semester. 


Quote: 
>>>
You've got page 8 onwards taking place way after Avengers Disassembled, but on page 9, Sage seems to be able to access the Avengers' database. 
<<<

No big deal. "The Avengers" shows up only as an icon on Sage's computer glasses. Nothing implies that one will get an active database if you click on it. So it's possible for Disassembled to have occurred by this time. 


Quote: 
>>>
On page 10, the XSE has been "recently announced", despite the deal now being months and months in the past.  
<<<

"Recently" is subjective and relative. To some, anything that's happened in the last several months is "recent." 


Quote: 
>>>
On page 14, despite all this extra time, Wolverine STILL hasn't found time to ask about the XSE before now - even though it dates back to the penultimate arc in X-TREME! And, of course, Nightcrawler is proposing working together, which implies that they're not already doing so.  
<<<

Logan may not have cared all that much to ask before, but now he may be interested because Scott put him on the XSE team in X 157. As for Nightcrawler's Danger Room comment, "Perhaps we should work together more often, ja?" is directed at both Ororo and Logan. I see this as a call for the three of them working together. For all we know, they may not have had missions as a team yet. 


Quote: 
>>>
On page 11, Gambit's medical examination scene no longer makes sense - why are they babbling on about "your restored powers" when he's had then back for months? This is clearly intended to precede Gambit's return to an active roster after regaining his powers. There's no other way of reading that dialogue. This strikes me as a huge problem with the "insert several months" approach. 
<<<

Gambit's condition, to me, may be the stickiest wicket. I agree that Hank's examination of Remy in UX 444 is clearly meant to have been about his returned power, and given that school is back in session or about to be, it's already been a while since that power returned in XX 46. No doubt this scene was supposed to occur before Remy got blinded in X 158. And unfortunately, there is NO gap between X 157 and 158. 

For all we know, though, they may blame Remy's suspect powers on the accident that resulted in his blindness (not knowing that a shot at Remy's charged card caused the explosion). To me, it's still possible to place that examination after X 160. Remy's bandage is off here because he's being examined. Hank could have been checking both Remy's eyesight and his powers. Who knows what else was said during this exam since we catch only a snippet on Sage's spyglasses? Remy could have gotten up off the exam table and Hank re-wrapped a bandage around his head.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 01:37 am  
By david

Paul - I'm getting confused about the Reload timeline!  
So far it's: 
Uncanny 444 pages 1 - 7. 
Astonishing 1 - 6. 
New X-Men: Academy X 1 - 6. 
X-Men 157 to 160. 
Uncanny 444 pages 8 to 23. 
X-Men 161 to 164. 
Uncanny 445 onwards. 
And I still haven't tried to figure out where all the cameo appearances / solo titles go yet! Argh!

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 05:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Now, how can we have Jay's arrival at the Institute in X 157 occur after this point? 
<<<

By the time of that dialogue, Jay's mother has decided to enrol him in the school, and he hates the fact. 

Ultimately, I suspect we have a difference of philosophy here. Faced with obvious clashes in the intended sequence, others on this thread are looking for the discrepancies that can be explained away by... creative readings of the dialogue. Therefore, they would rather explain away a lot of references which they feel are easily explained than disregard one which isn't - even if this involves literally possible readings which clearly weren't what the writer had in mind. 

My approach, on the other hand, is to discard the stuff which is least relevant to the plot. Putting UX 444 first allows a whole load of other references, involving the title characters, to stand as written. The only real obstacle in the way of that is a cameo appearance by Icarus which is irrelevant to the plot. So I start from the standpoint that if it can be junked, it should be, because it's the problem that matters least; I'd rather distort one minor reference to cause minimal damage to the story, than twist five or ten more important ones which happen to be open to constructive readings. Because in this context, a constructive reading is still just discarding the obvious intention of the story, and it comes to the same thing in the long run. 

Ultimately, I'm content to gloss over or ignore peripheral plot elements as simple errors rather than seek to explain everything away, if this results in something which is closer to the writers' apparent intention.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 08:04 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
Therefore, they would rather explain away a lot of references which they feel are easily explained than disregard one which isn't - even if this involves literally possible readings which clearly weren't what the writer had in mind.  


It's obvious that writers had different things in mind. There is no way to avoid giving another meaning to what at least one of the writers intended somewhere. We're all suggesting going against a writer's intentions. But yes, I'm looking for the most rational explanation(s) for the discrepancies that exist. I'm not considering a subjective judgment of "major" or "minor" plots or characters, nor am I content to ignore a glaring continuity error as would exist with Jay Guthrie. If we can establish a plausible explanation for the scenes and dialog in UX 444-445 to occur before X 157, great. After having tried to do this for a while without much success, I'm open to suggestions. 

Without any such suggestions, we'll have to weigh ignoring Jay's continuity problem against discarding a couple of rationalized explanations of dialog (Kurt's Danger Room comment about working together and Beast's comment to Remy about his powers at his examination). Is that the bottom line? 

Now watch, the X-issues due out today will somehow throw everything back up in the air... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 08:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I don't think it IS a subjective judgment as to whether something is a major or minor plot point, beyond finely balanced cases. Jay's appearance in UX 444 and the reference to him in UX 445 is irrelevant to the plot, period. On the other hand, the status of the X-Men themselves is much more important in their own books. The Gambit medical exam, for example, serves an actual plot purpose - it updates us on the status of one of the book's lead characters! I have trouble seeing how, on any view, that can be regarded as less important than a meaningless cameo by a character from NEW X-MEN. 

Bear in mind that, if UX 444 follows X 157, Gambit has to lose and regain his sight between pages. That would require X 157-164 and ROGUE 1-6, as a bear minimum, to go in that slot. If Gambit is still blind in the upcoming X 165, which is a Christmas story, then he's blind for the whole term after the school is rebuilt! It strikes me that that would torpedo any notion of UX 444 taking place after he recovers. 

Another tie-in to bear in mind is that after his injury in UX 447, Cannonball leaves the X-Men and, according to X-FOR2 2, buys a farm. When we catch up with him there, he's referencing the attacks on X-Corp from XCAL3 5 as a recent event. But XCAL3 isn't even going to catch up to Avengers Disassembled for another two issues... 

I just cannot for the life of me understand why people think all of these knock-ons and multiple distortions of other titles are worth it, just to preserve a cameo appearance by Icarus!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 09:24 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

I have to go with Paul O'Brien on this. The only thing that really seems to preclude UX 444 coming before everything else is the line that says Jay hates being enrolled at the school. Enrolled, that's all. It doesn't mean he's living there yet, he's just been signed up to go there and he's pissed off about it. Couldn't his appearance during UX 444 have been due to an enrolment day of some king?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 10:31 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hey, here's something that's always confused me about that scene in UX #444: 

We see TWO mutants -- Jay and someone named Melody -- frolicking for the cameras. Later, in #445, when Cannonball thinks the Fury is about to kill him, he thinks something like "Jay, you'll be the man of the family now -- take care of Paige and Melody..." 

Also in UX #445, Rachel mentions "Sam's sisters" but they're not mentioned by name. Paul B. assumed the second sister was Joelle, but it could be this Melody. 

I guess the implication is that Melody is another Guthrie -- is that right? 

Have we ever seen her before? Have we seen her since? 

IF she's another Guthrie, AND she never shows up again -- could we use her presence in the disputed "camera mugging" scene in UX #444 as evidence that the Guthrie clan -- momma and Jay and little Melody -- are up from Kentucky to check the place out? 

Then -- who knows -- we could fit X #157 the very next day, or something, where Jay is dropped off for good with all his bags, and momma goes home. 

The reference to momma Guthrie seeing Jay and Melody on TV could simply be read as "she was sitting in the mansion watching C-Span and saw them", or "watching C-Span in her Salem Center motel room" -- anything. 

Dunno, man. Who is this Melody, anyway? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 03:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay -- I've been turning this whole thing over and over in my head all day, and I'm pretty much willing to throw in the towel here. 

Paul B. -- can UX #444-449 somehow be placed the day before X #157? 

If so, I'd be willing to buy that he was there because he was being dropped off -- but it was a two-day affair. The first day (UX #444), he might have been moping around the outskirts of the campus with his family while his momma talked to Cyclops about admitting him, when he and (sister?) Melody spotted the coptor and decided to buzz it -- and the NEXT day (X #157), he was officially Dropped Off, his momma left, and he got his first look at the insides of the building. 

If that was his little sister with him, I'd be much more inclined to believe that he'd be smiling and goofing around with a news coptor just one day before his sullen drop-off and building tour. 

I don't have the issues with me to check -- and I remember a nighttime fight with the Fury, so at least portions of UX #445-449 occur the next day -- but if we can place these issues literally one day after the other, I think I'd be willing to concede the issue... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 06:05 pm    
By jephyork 
Director

You're all going to hate me -- I think I'm back on the fence about this... 

I just read through UX #444 again, and two things caught my eye: 

Logan is wearing his new costume -- the one he was grumbling about having to adopt again in ASTONX3 #1. 

Rogue is escorting a group of students to the Danger Room, and they have a session booked. Looks like school's in session. 

I know, I know, there's dozens of evidential bits of dialogue that suggest/indicate/prove that UX #444 occurs before the teams are actively set up -- but it sure looks like UX #444 occurs after ASTONX3 #1. 

(And, if so, then also after ASTONX3 #2, as Lockheed is present.) 

Wolverine also appears in X #157 in his ReLoad outfit -- a glitch I'd like to fix -- so, instead of once again suggesting that UX #444 occurs much later on, I was thinking of suggesting that we try to move ASTONX3 #1 into first place -- to accomodate an order like this: 

ASTONX3 #1-2 - School term begins. Costumes given out. 
UX #444-447 - Teams not announced. School in session. Jay Guthrie arrives on grounds. Gambit sighted. Costumes worn. Nightcrawler and Wolvie drift towards the XSE. 
X #157-160 - Jay Guthrie gets full tour. Teams announced. Costumes worn. Gambit injured. 

Of course, that leaves SOME glitches -- notably, Beast in the wrong outfit and Kitty asking why she's still needed in X #157 -- but it has the advantage of placing the opening of the school and the enforcement of the costume policy FIRST -- which makes UX #444 read better. 

God, this just gets worse and worse the more I look at it. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 06:33 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The implication that classes are running in UX 444 isn't a problem, because NM2 already established that the school continues to run classes for permanent resident kids outside term time. After all, they've got to find something for them to do. So that doesn't tell us one way or the other whether term has started. 

Wolverine's costume is more of a problem, but honestly, I'm inclined to just shrug my shoulders and ignore it as an art error caused by bad editing. If you try and place this story after they get the new costumes in ASTONX3 1, you then fall into the logical problem that the team assignments are clearly in place in ASTONX3 1, so it must also follow X 157, in which case Gambit is blind, which he isn't... and then we're back where we started. There's no way of squaring everything off here, so I'm happy to go for the option which only involves ignoring some minor elements that don't affect the plot and allow everything else to make senes without spiralling off into vertiginous chronological loops.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 07:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Confession time: I don't actually own ASTONX3 #1-6. I've paged through them at the store many a time, and I have a fairly good memory, but I have to ask this possibly-embarrassing question: 

Are we SURE that the new teams are in place in ASTONX3 #1? I mean, yes, that's Cyclops' squad right there -- but are they ever expressly referred to as such, or are they there more of "a collection of teachers"? 

Also: how strong is Logan's reaction to the costumes in #1? Is it proof positive that he hasn't been back in costume before that, or can it be interpreted to read that -- although Cyclops might have pressured him back into costume before the others -- he still groans when the concept is brought up publicly? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 08:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Confession time: I don't actually own ASTONX3 #1-6. 
<<<

 Speaking personally, if I could only buy one Marvel comic, right now it'd be Astonishing X-Men. 


watching: mostly true stories: urban legends

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 05:01 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The costumes are unambiguously presented as something new; it's a proposal that Scott raises in ASTONX3 1 itself. That said, X 157 has Scott in his new costume and Beast in the old one, so they evidently didn't all adopt the new costumes at the same time. Scott, at least, seems to have changed his costume first. But yes, it seems to be news to Wolverine, who grumbles and objects to the concept. (Even though his new costume is only marginally different from the one he was wearing for years.) 

However, it's equally clear that the team is in place - Kitty is arriving to take up her place with the team, they have team meetings together, they debut their costumes together, they go off together to fight bad guys at the end of the issue... A particularly key point is that a later issue establishes that Kitty was brought in at Emma Frost's request, specifically because Emma wanted to be on a team with somebody who she hadn't worked with before and who would keep an eye on her. And Kitty wasn't an active X-Man at ALL before being drafted back onto one of the teams in X 157, where she's complaining about precisely that.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 08:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hoo boy. This is a mess. This is starting to assume Kang War proportions.  I'm ready to toss everything up again and restart. As I see it, we need to map a chronology for the following issues: 

UX 444-449 
UX 451-453+ 
X 157-160 
X 161-164 
ASTONX3 1-6 
NX 1-6 
NX 7+ 
ROGUE 1-5+ 

And we should consider gaps within arcs or issues if it helps straighten out continuity messes. 

Plus, we can try to deal with non-X titles that probably occur during this time: 
A 503 (Beast in Morrison outfit) 
A:FINALE (Beast in new costume) 
SPECSM 19-20 (Cyclops, Storm, Nightcrawler) 
M/KS-M 6 (Rachel) 
M/TU3 1-2 (Wolverine) 

My assumption is that XCAL3 1-7 occur prior to this period. But what about: 

GAMBIT 
NIGHTCRAWLER 
WOLVERINE v3 

Do these titles offer more clues?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 08:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

XCAL3 1-4 pick up immediately after the "funeral" of Magneto, and therefore take place while the rest of the X-Men are still reeling from the aftermath of "Planet X." XCAL3 5-7 are later, but it's not clear how much later - the fact that events in XCAL3 5 are referenced in XFOR2 2, which in turn follows Cannonball's departure from the X-Men after UX 448, implies that there's a lengthy gap. (Which is useful, because it gives Xavier an opportunity to make those brief appearances in WEAPON X and X-STATIX where the plot either follows "Planet X", or Xavier's in a wheelchair. Fortunately, MYSTIQUE has established that Xavier is now in the habit of projecting his astral image to the USA via relays constructed by Forge, which would allow him to make those appearances without actually travelling from Genosha to do so.) 

NIGHTCRAWLER contains no direct references, but does have him taking orders from Storm, which would place it after the team reorganisation. 

The Millar/Romita WOLVERINE has the school up and running, and includes an appearance by Shadowcat in her new costume. Basically, though, it can happily come after all other storylines. Which is handy, because it's going to tie into NEW INVADERS and NEW THUNDERBOLTS in upcoming months.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 09:08 am    
By jephyork
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Confession time: I don't actually own ASTONX3 #1-6. 
<<<
 Speaking personally, if I could only buy one Marvel comic, right now it'd be Astonishing X-Men. 
<<<

Oh, NOW you weigh in on this conversation.  

The thing is, I don't buy ANY of the main X-books anymore. They're basically guaranteed a TPB, so I wait and buy that. I do support the lower-tier X-books by pre-ordering, though (because they're NOT guaranteed a TPB) ... so basically I get to read all of the crap and none of the good stuff. 

However, I did manage to pick up UX #444-447 and X #157-159 at a comic show recently for 50 cents each ... strangely, though, I couldn't find any Astonishing issues for that price.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 09:11 am
By jephyork
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
XCAL3 5-7 are later ... there's a lengthy gap. (Which is useful, because it gives Xavier an opportunity to make those brief appearances in WEAPON X and X-STATIX... Fortunately, MYSTIQUE has established that Xavier is now in the habit of projecting his astral image to the USA via relays constructed by Forge, which would allow him to make those appearances without actually travelling from Genosha to do so.) 
<<<

Oooh, me likey. That would fix something that's been bugging me for months about Weapon X v2 #18 -- a post-Planet X Xavier who's seated, but not IN a wheelchair. 

"Astral image" works for me.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 07:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Oh, and I forgot about X-Men Unlimited, vol. 2, with XU2 3/2 having the most obvious tie-in, continuity-wise, as previously mentioned. 

I'm trying to get all this straightened out because of the tie-ins with Spidey and the Avengers, which I've been taking stabs at plotting on a calendar and which has bubbled to the surface in some previous threads. 

Maybe this is a good weekend task...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 10:22 pm    
By david

Paul B, here's a question for you: 
Do any of the 4 reload titles (Adjectiveless, Astonishing, New or Uncanny) make references to each other in any way? That would help with the timeline! 

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 11:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Direct references are few, but they do exist. Dialogue in this week's NX 7 makes two references to events in X 164, for instance. For the most part, though, we're dealing with a mass of conflicting references: less direct snippets of dialog, costume changes, the status of the teams and the facility, school year references, and miscellaneous temporal clues. It is a challenge to keep them all straight, let alone organize them, separate the more compelling clues from the less so, and come up with rationalizations for continuity glitches.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Dec 2004 01:56 am    
By david

Here's my final Reload calendar. Does everyone agree / disagree with it? 
Astonishing Volume 3 issues 1-2. 
Uncanny 444 to 447. 
X-Men 157 to 160. 
Astonishing Volume 3 issues 3 to 6. 
New 1 to 3 page 18. 
X-Men Unlimited Volume 2 issue 3 story 2. 
X-Men 161 to 164. 
New 3 page 19 to 9. 
Uncanny 448 to 451.

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Posted: 03 Dec 2004 04:52 am    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

Another trivial but vaguely interesting point from NEW X-MEN 7 - it's expressly set after Sammy dies, but Gambit is holding a target practice class. So he'd better get his eyesight back soon...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Dec 2004 08:35 am    
By Dhall

My thoughts are that were going to have to wait for a sighted Gambit to really work this out. 

I also think that if we need a gap, a better place than UX 444 to put one, would be between pages 9 and 10 of UX 445. I do not believe that the law would only take one day to clear Wolverine and Nightcrawler of murder. The wheels of justice do not turn that quickly.. Its likely that two or three weeks passes there, plenty of time for some other stories to occur. 

Also, since no one seems to have mentioned it, Cannonball appears in X 157, hes on the far left of the group shot in Cyclops office, next to Nightcrawler. So that has to occur before he leaves for England in the second section of UX 445. 

As far as the team rosters having been established by Astonishing, Cyclops refers to the other teams but we see no direct evidence that the team assignments have been announced. He may have decided upon them, but not formally announced them yet. His team is up and running yes, but that doesnt prove one way or the other if the other teams are. 

The biggest problem for me right now, is how to square Gambits app. In New X-Men 3 with Jay Guthries appearances. I cant see NXM 1-3 occurring within pages of X 157. I think Ill have to take another look at those. 

Dave H

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Posted: 05 Dec 2004 10:43 am    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Also, since no one seems to have mentioned it, Cannonball appears in X 157, hes on the far left of the group shot in Cyclops office, next to Nightcrawler. So that has to occur before he leaves for England in the second section of UX 445. 
<<<


I don't see your logic. Why can't Sam return to the Institute after those stories, if only to quit?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Dec 2004 12:10 pm    
By Dhall

The broken leg thing, would seem to prohibit it, though of course that could be worked around, if necessary. They do have healers available at the mansion, so I suppose he could have returned after UX 447, gotten his leg fixed, ended up in X 157, then left for X-Force......come to think of it, that's gives him a really good reason to return to the mansion, and then quit. 

Dave H

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Posted: 05 Dec 2004 01:55 pm    
By Dhall

By the way, regarding the New X-Men 3 Gambit cameo. He's just standing there in the background with his staff in the teacher's lounge. Is there any real reason why we couldn't consider the lack of bandage to be an art error, if necessary? There's nothing wrong with him except his vision, so it's not like he couldn't be walking around. Especially if he wanted to get out of the infirmary, and say Nightcrawler took him for a walk to the lounge. 

I'm not saying this is the case yet, just that it could be. 

Dave H

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Posted: 05 Dec 2004 07:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've been working on this; it's just taking a while gathering all the clues. I've gone back through UX 444-449 and X 157-160 and will proceed to ASTONX3 1-6, then ROGUE 1-5, XU 3/2, and NX 1-6. 

I'll post all the details when I'm done, but it may be several days. In the meantime... 

Just dealing with UX and X, how does this sound? 


UX 444 (1-7) 

(Maybe other stuff here) 

X 157 (1-6) 
UX 444 (8-11) 
X 157 (7-25) 
X 158 
X 159 
X 160 

(Maybe other stuff here) 

UX 444 (12-23) 
UX 445 
UX 446 
UX 447
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Dec 2004 07:31 pm    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

Problem with that is that you've got Gambit being told he's not fit to go back on active duty, and then immediately being assigned to Havok's team and going on a mission...!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 Dec 2004 07:50 am    
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

That's no problem at all. Why do you think the Beast is in Scott's office complaining about the team assignments in X 157? 

Here's the scenario: One morning, the Beast examines Gambit and says, Im sorry, Gambit. But both Storm and I feel you need more time in rehab. Just to be sure your restored powers are as perfect as you claim. Later that same morning, Scott posts the new team assignments on the Institutes bulletin board. The Beast sees that Gambit is assigned to a team, despite his opinion about the reliability of Gambits powers and despite Remys own desire to spend quality time with Rogue and not go on missions for the time being. The Beast goes to Scotts office, where everyones complaining about the team assignments. The Beast says, This is an untenable situation, Scott  . But Scott refuses to budge, and exclaims, ...No adjustments will be made to the team assignments! Period! So off goes Gambit on a mission. 

Why would Scott put Remy on a team under these circumstances? Dunno, but then again this is the guy who benched Northstar and put Logan on all the teams, and those dont appear to be rational decisions either. As Hank said..."untenable."
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 7

Posted: 07 Dec 2004 08:36 am    Post subject: Two X-Men corrections...
By Paul O'Brien
Director


Minor stuff. X 42: Sabretooth and Gambit should be behind the scenes - there's a scene in the Mansion infirmary, and the Beast tells us that they're there. Following the sequence which is given for everyone else, this would place Sabretooth between X-Men Prime and W2 91-BTS, and Gambit between X-Men Prime and UX 323. 

Archangel is also behind the scenes in this story; he phones in to report the events of UX 322. That places him between UX 322 and W2 91. 

Second correction: Magneto is currently listed as appearing in X 42-44. He's not in X 44 - that story opens with Colossus waking up and finding Magneto's already gone. I can't see him on panel anywhere in X 42 either, although there are lengthy scenes aboard Avalon in that issue, he probably merits a BTS appearance. 

While I'm at it, a whole slew of crystallised Acolytes appear in one panel of X 41, an appearance which is currently missing from the MCP (and, of course, would fit into the Acolytes' chronologies just before X-Men Prime). The identifiable characters are Magneto, Exodus, Milan, Cargill, Unuscione, Javitz and Katu. The Acolytes don't appear crystallised anywhere else, so this must be an original appearance.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 8

Posted: 05 Dec 2004 03:55 pm    Post subject: Franklinverse additions question (attention: X-Fans)
By RLG

I'm working on some character additions to the MCP from the Frankliverse and was wondering if they should be denoted as being from that universe/world? For example: 

DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON/FRANKLINVERSE 

- RLG 

PS - For all you X-fans out there, please check out the FF2 #7 entry in the Heroes Reborn calendar. There is a new panel of Wolverine, Storm (and She-Hulk) in that issue which fits in between the pages of FFV.X #2. I will add that panel into the character additions when I send them.

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Posted: 05 Dec 2004 05:57 pm    
By Jim Smith

I definitely think the Franklinverse characters (that is, the ones who originated there, not the characters who briefly stopped by, like the FF or the Thunderbolts) need a distinctive notation. As it is, they're denoted with Roman numerals, which I find confusing when applied to alternate-reality characters. I'd go with something along the lines of how characters from the Mutant X universe are listed, e.g.: 

DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON | FRANKLINVERSE 

The tricky part is deciding which term fits best. "Franklinverse" technically only applies to the pocket universe Franklin made--the Earth itself was removed from that universe in Heroes Reborn: Doom. It's been "Counter-Earth" ever since, but that would cause confusion with the better-known Counter-Earth created by the High Evolutionary. "Heroes Reborn" might be the most accurate description that everyone will understand. 

A while back I worked up a list of all the characters indiginous to the Franklinverse, because for the most part the MCP hasn't listed them. I could post my material if anyone's interested.

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Posted: 05 Dec 2004 10:08 pm    
By RLG

I agree with you Jim, the Roman numeral system is complicated enough without adding the Frankinverse to the mix. The recent MODOK thread is a great example. "Heroes Reborn" sounds like a good alternative (good call on the Counter-Earth complication), but how about the shortened "HR" suffix? 

As for your character list, I would personally welcome it. I plan to do the same using the calendar I created. I've gone through the CA2 and IM2 stuff so far and hopefully will be entering the 1st installment within this coming week. 

- RLG

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Posted: 06 Dec 2004 02:46 am    
By Jim Smith

OK, this list is incomplete--I got through all 13 issues of each of the four HR titles, but never got around to listing characters introduced in the HR: Doom event, the Doom miniseries, or Thunderbolts. I might come back and get that stuff later, but this is a pretty good start. 

A few of these characters, like Dane Whitman and Rick Jones, only appeared in the "World War 3" story that fused the Franklinverse and the Wildstorm Universe. My logic is that the Franklinverse had to have a Rick Jones for the WW3 divergence to have one, so if it was up to me WW3 would be considered as canon as JLA/Avengers. 

One final note: I can't tell for the life of me if the Negative Zone seen in Heroes Reborn is the same Negative Zone the "real" MU interacts with, or if the Franklinverse had its own Negative Zone. Therefore I consider the Blastaar and Annihilus in Heroes Reborn to be Franklinverse copies of the originals. I have the same problem with Heroes Reborn's Watcher. 

AIR-WALKER | HEROES REBORN 
ANNIHILUS | HEROES REBORN 
BARNES, JOHN | HEROES REBORN 
BARNES, PEGGY CARTER | HEROES REBORN 
BARNES, RICHARD "BUCKY" | HEROES REBORN 
BLACK KNIGHT | HEROES REBORN 
BLAKE, DR. DONALD | HEROES REBORN 
BLASTAAR | HEROES REBORN 
BUCKY/RIKKI BARNES | HEROES REBORN 
CARTER, SHARON | HEROES REBORN 
CRIMSON DYNAMO | HEROES REBORN 
CROSSBONES | HEROES REBORN 
DEFONTAINE, COUNTESS VALENTINA ALLEGRO | HEROES REBORN 
DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON | HEROES REBORN 
DORMA | HEROES REBORN 
DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS "DUM DUM" | HEROES REBORN 
ENCHANTRESS/AMORA | HEROES REBORN 
EXECUTIONER/SKURGE | HEROES REBORN 
FIRELORD/PYREUS KRILL | HEROES REBORN 
FURY, COLONEL NICHOLAS "NICK" | HEROES REBORN 
GALACTUS | HEROES REBORN 
GYRICH, HENRY PETER | HEROES REBORN 
HARKNESS, AGATHA | HEROES REBORN 
HAUPTMAN | HEROES REBORN 
HELLCAT/PATRICIA WALKER | HEROES REBORN 
HOGAN, HAPPY | HEROES REBORN 
JONES, RICK | HEROES REBORN 
KANG | HEROES REBORN 
KLAW | HEROES REBORN 
KRANG | HEROES REBORN 
LIVING LASER/ARTHUR PARKS | HEROES REBORN 
LOKI | HEROES REBORN 
MADAME HYDRA | HEROES REBORN 
MANDARIN | HEROES REBORN 
MANTIS | HEROES REBORN 
MASTER MAN/"ALEXANDER THE GREAT"/"GOD" | HEROES REBORN 
MASTERS, ALICIA | HEROES REBORN 
MAXIMUS | HEROES REBORN 
MELTER | HEROES REBORN 
MODOK | HEROES REBORN 
MOLE MAN | HEROES REBORN 
ORTHUS | HEROES REBORN 
PARKS, AMY | HEROES REBORN 
PLASMA | HEROES REBORN 
POTTS, PEPPER | HEROES REBORN 
QUARTERMAIN, CLAY | HEROES REBORN 
RADIOACTIVE MAN | HEROES REBORN 
REBEL/CONNOR O'REILLY | HEROES REBORN 
RED SKULL/JOHANN SCHMIDT | HEROES REBORN 
ROSS, ELIZABETH "LIZ" | HEROES REBORN 
ROSS, THADDEUS "THUNDERBOLT" | HEROES REBORN 
SELLARS | HEROES REBORN 
SERPENT KING/NICK FURY L.M.D. | HEROES REBORN 
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD | HEROES REBORN 
SITWELL, JASPER | HEROES REBORN 
SUPER-SKRULL/KL'RT/"WYATT WINGFOOT" | HEROES REBORN 
SWORDSMAN/WADE WILSON | HEROES REBORN 
TERRAX | HEROES REBORN 
THOR | HEROES REBORN 
TITANIUM MAN | HEROES REBORN 
ULTRON | HEROES REBORN 
WATCHER | HEROES REBORN 
WHITMAN, DANE | HEROES REBORN 
WINGFOOT, WYATT | HEROES REBORN 
WHIRLWIND/DAVE CANNON/HUMAN TOP/CHARLIE MATTHEWS | HEROES REBORN 
WONDER MAN | HEROES REBORN 
ZEMO, BARON HEINRICH | HEROES REBORN

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Posted: 06 Dec 2004 11:09 am    
By SKleefeld 
Director

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
One final note: I can't tell for the life of me if the Negative Zone seen in Heroes Reborn is the same Negative Zone the "real" MU interacts with, or if the Franklinverse had its own Negative Zone. Therefore I consider the Blastaar and Annihilus in Heroes Reborn to be Franklinverse copies of the originals. I have the same problem with Heroes Reborn's Watcher. 
<<<

I would lean toward a single Negative Zone for both universes. You'll recall that a) Reed Richards and Tony Stark used the Negative Zone to help prove that their reality had only exitsed a short while with an imaginary past, and b) the heroes all returned to the mainstream MU <I>via</I> the Negative Zone, precisely because it acted as a portal to both worlds.

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Posted: 06 Dec 2004 07:22 pm    
By RLG

The use of the Negative Zone for getting the heroes back to Earth does tend to establish that it is the same one we all know and love. Reed's first theory (FF2 #7) about the Negative Zone was along the lines of - the empty space inside the "sphere-shaped" universe (think: balloon). When he, Sue, and Johnny entered, it was to find a short-cut to the other side of the universe. Has the Earth-616 Negative Zone ever been described in such a manner? 

Also, when the heroes return to Earth, the FF arrive outside in a park-like setting (maybe Central Park.) Would they just randomly land there it they had transported through the Earth-616 Negative Zone? The same goes for Captain America in Japan. 

The Blastaar seen in FF2 #7 doesn't seem to recognize Reed, Sue, and Johnny when he attacks them. However, it could be that he just didn't get a good look as they were inside their space ship. 

The Watcher seen in FF2 #7, Wizard #1/2, and IM2 #11, I believe, is the same Uatu who has been seen in numerous titles. 

I'm trying to remember the Annihilus appearance. Was he in the WWIII cross-over? And if so, has that cross-over been deemed "canon?" 

- RLG

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Posted: 06 Dec 2004 07:41 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

RLG wrote: 
>>>
The use of the Negative Zone for getting the heroes back to Earth does tend to establish that it is the same one we all know and love. Reed's first theory (FF2 #7) about the Negative Zone was along the lines of - the empty space inside the "sphere-shaped" universe (think: balloon). When he, Sue, and Johnny entered, it was to find a short-cut to the other side of the universe. Has the Earth-616 Negative Zone ever been described in such a manner? 
<<<

Not to my knowledge, and I have done quite a bit of study on the Negative Zone for my web site... 
http://www.ffplaza.com/commcenter/articles/NegativeZone.shtml 


RLG wrote: 
>>>
Also, when the heroes return to Earth, the FF arrive outside in a park-like setting (maybe Central Park.) Would they just randomly land there it they had transported through the Earth-616 Negative Zone? The same goes for Captain America in Japan. 
<<<

The NZ overlaps the MU along many, many points. Depending on where you enter/exit will determine where you wind up on the other side. The Baxter Building's portal was somewhere near the Distortion Are, but Yancy Street drops you on the home planet of Dusk, for example.

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Posted: 06 Dec 2004 07:59 pm    
By Jim Smith

RLG wrote: 
>>>
The Blastaar seen in FF2 #7 doesn't seem to recognize Reed, Sue, and Johnny when he attacks them. 
<<<

That's my main reason for thinking it might be the HR version of Blastaar. Since it seems to all be the same Negative Zone, I guess Occham's Razor says it's the same Blastaar (albeit with a fuzzy memory). 


Quote: 
>>>
The Watcher seen in FF2 #7, Wizard #1/2, and IM2 #11, I believe, is the same Uatu who has been seen in numerous titles. 
<<<


The only reason I wonder is because it sure looks like Uatu is getting killed by Deadpool/Swordsman's nuclear bomb in HR: Remnants. Obviously 616's Uatu is alive and well, so either that's him and he survived, or that's some other Uatu. Of course, Remnants wasn't taking itself seriously, so I'm not sure why I should. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm trying to remember the Annihilus appearance. Was he in the WWIII cross-over? And if so, has that cross-over been deemed "canon?" 
<<<

Annihilus's only HR appearance was in the World War 3 story. I don't know if it'll be deemed canon or not, so I left him on my list until I get some kind of ruling. 

To me the only arguments against counting WW3 as canon are a) It's an intercompany crossover and b) it's an alternate universe. The MCP currently lists Marvel Versus DC and several Malibu crossovers, so that's not an issue. And WW3's divergent history is more of a temporal anomaly than a true parallel universe--it's more along the lines of Morgan La Fey's world in A3 2-3 than, say, the timeline from MTIO 50 and 100. So for my money, that's the real Captain America et al. running around in the real Franklinverse in WW3, even though that real reality is a little scrambled at the moment.

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Posted: 07 Dec 2004 05:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
To me the only arguments against counting WW3 as canon are a) It's an intercompany crossover and b) it's an alternate universe. The MCP currently lists Marvel Versus DC and several Malibu crossovers, so that's not an issue. And WW3's divergent history is more of a temporal anomaly than a true parallel universe--it's more along the lines of Morgan La Fey's world in A3 2-3 than, say, the timeline from MTIO 50 and 100. So for my money, that's the real Captain America et al. running around in the real Franklinverse in WW3, even though that real reality is a little scrambled at the moment. 
<<<

I agree - it's an intercompany crossover that actually runs through four issue of ongoing Marvel titles, and the WildStorm characters are brought in through a major disruption in reality. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be canon. 

True, it involves alternate worlds, but then HR history never happened in the first place - it's all fake! Who's to say WW3 really does revise history? Maybe the past doesn't actually change, but the characters just wake up with a fresh set of false memories.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Dec 2004 01:54 pm    
By Jim Smith

Given that the HR Earth still exists, I take that to mean everything that happened there was real, even though the heroes (and Doom) were initially misled by false memories of their pasts. Just because Captain America barely remembers or cares about his time there doesn't mean that Rikki Barnes never dressed up like Bucky and isn't running around with Jolt and the Young Allies right now. 

One aspect that is fake is Counter-Earth's history before Franklin created it in O:MU. Flashbacks to things like Cap's meeting with Truman about Hiroshima can't actually have happened, since the Franklinverse didn't exist in 1946.

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Thread 9

Posted: 06 Dec 2004 08:33 pm    Post subject: Namor in Marvels #1
By theManThing

I got the reprint that was put out of Namor and Human Torch's(Hammond's) first encounter and on the chronology list of Sub-Mariner I don't see Marvels #1 listed in his golden age appearances.

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Posted: 06 Dec 2004 11:19 pm    
By theManThing

While I'm on the subject, I think the latest Sub-Mariner appearances go like this: 

A3 84 
NewINV 0 
NewINV 1 
NewINV 2 
NewINV 3 
A 501 
A 502 
A 503 
NewTB 2 
NewINV 4

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Posted: 07 Dec 2004 07:57 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

ManThing, 

Any specific reason for putting New Invaders #4 after New Thunderbolts #2?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Dec 2004 08:32 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I was wondering about that - my instinct would be, at least provisionally, to put NI 4 before NT 2, because NI 4 is the first half of a two-parter which ends later this month, while NT 2 is the second chapter of a six-part storyline running through to spring 2005. Also, that six-parter will tie in to "Enemy of the State", as will the next Invaders arc, suggesting that they take place at roughly the same time.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Dec 2004 08:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That would be my instinct, too, if only because NT 2 is supposed to occur after A:FINALE, which in turn is supposed to occur "three months" after A 503. That's a gap of time that story arcs in NI could easily occupy.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 10

Posted: 06 Dec 2004 07:11 pm    Post subject: Danvers family in UX 182-FB
By SeanCurtin

Rogue's flashbacks to Carol Danvers' memories in UX 182 are only partially listed. Carol's and Michael Rossi's chronologies include these scenes, but Carol's brothers Steve and Joe Jr. don't yet have entries. 

DANVERS, JOE JR. 
UX 182-FB 

DANVERS, STEVE 
UX 182-FB 

Out of curiosity, is there any reason not to either a) put Carol's entire chronology under Warbird or b) split it between entries at WARBIRD, BINARY, MS. MARVEL and DANVERS, CAROL? 

-Sean

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Posted: 06 Dec 2004 07:29 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I look for a reason to split, rather than looking for a reason not to split. That is, I prefer not to split, unless I think it's justified. 

I should probably break off Carol's early chronology from Binary to Ms. Marvel, but don't look for a separate listing for Carol Danvers. I think a separate listing for civilians who have had codenames is extremely rare...Harpy/Betty Ross Talbot Banner being one exception, since such an insignificant portion of her life has been spent as Harpy. 


watching: cops

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Posted: 07 Dec 2004 06:05 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Fair enough, although since Carol spent two relatively long periods without a codename, she ought to get a link from DANVERS, CAROL to BINARY (or to MS. MARVEL if you split off the earlier appearances). 

-Sean

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Posted: 07 Dec 2004 10:01 pm    
By Jim Smith

Personally I'd either put all of Carol's appearances under WARBIRD (I'd have to check, but I think by now she's made more appearances as Warbird than Ms. Marvel or Binary), or all her pre-Warbird appearances under MS. MARVEL. It drives me crazy every time I want to look up the character, because for whatever reason I keep forgetting she's listed under Binary instead of Ms. M.

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Thread 11

Posted: 11 Dec 2004 05:49 am    Post subject: Webspinners #7-9?     
By JLH

Any comments on it chronologically? I notice it's not listed in the MCP, and since Joe Kelly wrote it I suspect it might skirt the line of previously established situations. Is it canonical? (It's the "Peter Parker's senior prom, involving the Sandman" story, just in case anyone forgot).

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Thread 12

Posted: 29 Nov 2004 08:11 am    Post subject: Random corrections and questions
By JLH

No, this has nothing to do with X-Factor character "Random". 

VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 
UTSM 5 
**UTSM 12 
ASM@ 1 

**SHOTGUN II/J.R. "JUNIOR" WALKER (first name and nickname are currently missing) 
**{DD 272} (needed denotation of it being his first appearance) 
DD 273 
PWZ 1 
PWZ 2 
PWZ 3 
PWZ 4 
PWZ 5 
PWZ 6 
**PWJ 80 (this issue was recently added to the MCP, but his appearance in it wasn't) 
ASM 432 
S-M 89 
PPTSS 255 

The listing for "BADALINO, LT. MICHAEL" should be merged with VENGENACE/MICHAEL BADILINO (which is the proper spelling as far as I've seen). 
VENGEANCE/LT. MICHAEL BADILINO 
**{GR3 21} 
**GR3 22 
**GR3 23 
**GR3 25 
**GR3 28 
**GR3 35 
[GR3 52/2] 
V:NOV 1 
V:NOV 2 
V:NOV 3 
V:NOV 4 

I know someone three months back questioned it, but I do wonder if the issues of GR3 (and related minis and specials) which occur after the gap will be analyzed by the Administrator at some point, much like how many of the issues of Punisher recently added were after the mid-94 range.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 06:52 pm
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote: 
>>>
**SHOTGUN II/J.R. "JUNIOR" WALKER (first name and nickname are currently missing) 
**{DD 272} (needed denotation of it being his first appearance) 
<<<

Not really. We only use those braces when the first chronological appearance is not the same as the first published appearance. 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
I know someone three months back questioned it, but I do wonder if the issues of GR3 (and related minis and specials) which occur after the gap will be analyzed by the Administrator at some point, much like how many of the issues of Punisher recently added were after the mid-94 range. 
<<<


All of the Ghost Riders will be added this weekend. I've analyzed up to about issue 70, so far. 


watching: city confidential

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 03:45 am    
By JLH

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Not really. We only use those braces when the first chronological appearance is not the same as the first published appearance. 
<<<

I JUST realized that might've been the case today. But thanks much for clarifying. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
All of the Ghost Riders will be added this weekend. I've analyzed up to about issue 70, so far. 
<<<

Looking forward to it.

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Posted: 02 Dec 2004 02:25 am    
By JLH

Couple more: 

URICH, BEN 
UTSM 4 
**UTSM 15-BTS (cover shows the story he wrote about the tale within) 
UTSM 23 

KNIGHT, MISTY 
**UTSM 8-BTS (is mentioned in a Daily Bugle article) 
{M/TU 1} 

BUSHKIN, BARNEY 
V:SOD -1 
**UTSM 8-BTS (is mentioned in that same Daily Bugle article) 
{ASM 27}

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Posted: 11 Dec 2004 10:05 am    
By JLH

Few more things... 

BROCK, EDDIE 
[...] 
VSS 1-FB 
**UTSM 4 (is in the same panel with Ben Urich & Phil Sheldon, clarified as him in a letters page) 
UTSM 15 
PPTSS2 5-FB 
**ASM@ 26/2 (these are all "Venom WITH Eddie" appearances, which are on Venom's page, but not Eddie's) 
**PPTSS@ 12/2 
**WOSM@ 8/2 
**ASM 388/2 
**WOSM 18-BTS 
**ASM 388/2 
**WOSM 24-BTS 
**ASM 388/2 
**{ASM 298} (his first appearance should be denoted... though, which one counts? His shadowy cameo here, or his full appearance in the next one?) 
ASM 299 
ASM 300 
**DEF2 10 
ASM 315 
[...] 
IM 302 
**SECDEF 20 
DHAWK 35 
[...] 
V:LTK 3 
**V:SB 1 
**V:SB 2 
SM:VA 


JIGSAW/BILLY RUSSO 
PUN2 56 
**PWJ 61 
PUN3 2 


**RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
(Name was revealed in H2 435, which is already in the MCP. Could be an alias, but it's as close to a name as he's ever gotten) 


FONDOZZI, MICKEY 
PWZ 41 
**M/K 5 
**M/K 10 
**M/K 11

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Thread 13

Posted: 11 Dec 2004 09:18 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #1-4 additions
By SeanCurtin

**COCHRANE, SHELLY 
TW 4 

**COCHRANE, TOM 
TW 4 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
WOSM 81-FB 
**TW 2-FB (Carl King sees Spider-Man a "few days" after AAF 15) 
ASM 1 
... 
PPSM2 33 
**TW 4 (in silhouette on TV, page 2 panels 1 & 2) 
TW 5 

THOUSAND/CARL KING (real name not listed) 
**TW 1-FB 
**TW 2-FB 
**AAF 15 p3pn1-4 -BTS 
**AAF 15 p3pn5 - p4pn1 - BTS ~ TW 2-FB 
**AAF 15 p5pn6 - BTS ~ TW 2-FB 
**TW 2-FB 
**TW 3-FB 
TW 1 
TW 2 
TW 3 

-Sean

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Thread 14

Posted: 11 Dec 2004 09:10 pm    Post subject: Dracula in Marvel Preview#12, Fall 1977
By Enda80

Not sure where this fits........ 

(Marvel Preview#12/4 (fb)) On a tuesday around 11:30 PM, Dracula attacked a woman named Andrea Simmons in her apartment. Her body was missing. 

(Marvel Preview#12/4) The policeman investigated the murder. A Lieutenant Chaple spoke with Simmons' boyfrined James Nagle at the apartment. Simmons returned to her apartment, now a vampiress. She slew Nagle, but Chaple grabbed some swizzle sticks to make an impromptu cross. Breaking wood to make stakes, he punctured the hearts of Simmons and Nagle. Dracula, however, dropped in. Realizing he had not the power to attack Dracula, Chaple implaed his own heart with a stake. Dracula removed the stake and bit Chaple who returned as a vampire. 

James Nagle 

Abour four days laters 
A Lieutenant Chaple

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Posted: 12 Dec 2004 10:07 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
James Nagle 

Abour four days laters 
A Lieutenant Chaple 
<<<

What? 

-Jeph!

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Thread 15

Posted: 12 Dec 2004 02:27 pm    Post subject: Santa Claus' entry; a few other appearances
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/santa.htm 

SANTA CLAUS/NICK ST. CHRISTOPHER 
**{NFAOS 10-BTS} 
**M/HOL 1/1 
HTD MAG 3 
**PPTSS2 112 
S-H2 7 
S-H2 8 

Nick Fury#10 is a little bit dicy. It is at least strongly implied that it was Santa Claus who distracts one of the Hate-Monger's henchmen. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hatemonh.htm 

The following are gap books, except for What The?! which presents its own problems. I was wondering if What The stories should be considered canon if they refer to the characters by their proper names (e.g. Ant-Man instead of "Antler Man"). The What The?! refers to Doctor Octopus and Ant-Man by their proper names. (Captain Ultra also had a few What the stories.) 



(What the?!#16)- Doctor Octopus took over Santas workshop, imprisoned Claus, and forced the elves to create deadly toys that would be sent out to injure children. 

Scott Langs daughter received one of these toys. Destroying it, Lang, as Ant-Man, traveled to the North Pole to investigate. Discovering Doctor Octopus role in the affair, Lang shrank him down so they were the same size, and then battled him. Santa Claus, during their struggle, managed to free himself, and used his powers to restore both Ant-Man and Doctor Octopus to normal size. Doctor Octopus attempted to escape, but Rudolf stopped him. Octopus agreed to help Santa Claus load up his sleigh, and Santa Claus used his powers to shrink the load down. 

(Howard the Duck Holiday Special#1)- Beverly Switzer, working as an elf at the local mega-mall, called upon her confidant Howard to replace a mall Santa who was mangled in an escalator accident. However, as Howard and Beverly were in costume, a real elf appeared, marshalling Santas helpers to travel to the North Pole to save the real Santa, being held hostage by HYDRA. Howard, Beverly, as well as an abandoned kid in a Wolverine costume, hopped onto an antlered, flying bus to join all the other Clauses of the world (including Klaus Janson and Bubba Claus) in the quest to save Santa, and confronted the Commando Corps of HYDRA Accountants. 

(Generation X Holiday Special#1)- Santa Claus encountered Generation X, and they faced Nanny and the Orphan Maker when the team was snowed in one Christmas.

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Posted: 12 Dec 2004 10:10 pm    
By jephyork 
Director

Also: the Marvel Holiday Special story gave Santa's "real name" as Kris Kringle. Maybe we should stick that up there next to "Nick St. Christopher", and call 'em both aliases. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 16

Posted: 11 Dec 2004 06:28 pm    Post subject: King Arthur in Rom#37?
By Enda80

Rom 
Marvel Comics' Rom series, based on a Parker Brothers toy, chronicled the adventures of an armored alien "Spaceknight" who had come to Earth to battle the equally-alien but malicious Dire Wraiths. In issue #37 (Dec., 1982), Rom was struggling to rescue children held captive by Dire Wraiths in a castle that had once belonged to Morgan Le Fay, when a spectral King and his band of knights (unnamed, but implied to be Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table) came to his aid. 

I checked the issue. Rom sees a group of knights encased in ice on page 17. Rom sees among the knights "he whose shining visage did o'ershadow the glory of all the rest! A king he was, and noble!". 

Further on page 14, Rom has "Images of an age long gone....an age dominated by a figure greater than all the legends that sprung up after his death!". 

On page 21, the knights that Rom saw earlier arrive in an "unwordly brilliance". 

Of course, Arthur has made a few post-Camelot appearances, so; 
PENDRAGON, King ARTHUR - Camelot, son of uther+igraine, husband of guinevere, ally of merlin, descended from the celts, raised by sir ector, slew leader of saxon army in battle, took up dead enemies sword and proclaimed himself king of the britains, founded knights of the round table, allegedly defeated by Hobkin, killed by mordred, according to legend dwells in avalon until he will return to lead england, revived in otherworld, slew necromon alongside black knight x, possibly imbued with power of a pendragon (the same that later empowered crown), allegedly reincarnated as dafydd op iowerth. 
used the sword Excalibre 
-CROWN*? *D* (net)--(g)Black Knight Comics#1 ; 
Strange Tales I#108/2 (Namor#62(fb), Journey into Mystery I#96(fb), Avengers Annual#20(fb), [Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Deluxe#9:Morgan Le Fay (fb)], [Knights of Pendragon II#13], Marvel Preview#22, Spider-Man Battles the Myth Monster! #1, Strange Tales#108/2, 134, Iron Man I#150, [Defenders I#152(fb)], Marvel Super-Heroes II#17(fb,dies)/Excalibur: XX Crossing/[Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, Update'89 #7: Topaz], [Hulk Comic#43/2+44/2(fb), 55/2], 59/2-63/2, Marvel Super-Heroes (UK)#377, Dr.Who#60, MSH383, Mighty World of Marvel#13 

PENDRAGON, ARTHUR 
ST 134-FB 
ST 134 
{JIM 96-FB} 
A@ 20/2-FB 
IM 150 
CB 34-FB 
CB 35-FB 




P. 15 confirms this as Morgan Le Fey's castle. 

"It is told that, in a time long ago, those knights who dared venture to the keep of the enchantress, Morgan Le Fay, were forever lost to the company of men".

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2004 10:06 pm
By jephyork 
Director

What is all this? 

1) a mini-bio of King Arthur is completely unnecessary, 
2) I have no idea what "-CROWN*? *D* (net)--(g)" is supposed to mean, 
3) I'm unsure why certain entries are in brackets, 
4) and you didn't even bother to recommend a *placement* for ROM #37 in this huge cut-and-paste chronology. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 01:27 am    
By JLH

Enda is one some weird cut-n-paste spree. He copied my entire Frank Castle chronology from over on the Issue Analysis board to the Marvel Universe newsgroup today as well.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 02:01 am    
By Jim Smith

This appears to be based on the notation used at Jeff Christiansen's Master List of every Marvel character. I mainly recognize it because I visit the site a lot and can't make heads or tales of it either.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 05:33 am    Post subject: Brackets means BTS
By Enda80

In the Knights of Pendragon series, a man named Adam Crown claimed to be Merlin's reincarnation. Hence, the reference to Crown. *D* means dead, (net) means covered on the net, and (g) means Golden Age. []means behind the scenes. 


PENDRAGON, ARTHUR 
**BK2 1-FB 
{JIM 96-FB} 
ST 134-FB 
ST 134 
A@ 20/2-FB 
IM 150 
CB 34-FB 
CB 35-FB 
**BK2 1-FB 
**XCAL: XX CROSSING 
**ROM 37 

Actually, to really beef up Arthur Pendragon's chronology, I have suggested the following changes. First, Avengers Annual#22/2 showed that it was the Mad Merlin who was the Merlin who fought Kang in Strange Tales I#134. That story, and Thor Annual#17/4, also established that the Black Knight (Sir Percy) and Merlin (Myraddin of Ruta) were away fighting Morgan Le Fay at the time the Mad Merlin carried out his duplicity (Thor Annual#17/4 has a brief scene of the Black Knight fighting Morgan Le Fey). So this establishes that Sir Percy had started as the Black Knight before the Mad Merlin impersonated the true Merlin. 

BK2 1 features flashbacks to the introduction of Sir Percy to Arthur's court and to the death of Arthur in battle with Mordred during the Fall of Camelot. 

Excalibur: XX Crossing has a brief scene of Arthur throwing Excalibur to the Lady of the Lake after his last battle (before meeting Dan Whitman, at least) with Mordred.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 09:45 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Enda is one some weird cut-n-paste spree. He copied my entire Frank Castle chronology from over on the Issue Analysis board to the Marvel Universe newsgroup today as well. 
<<<

Not only that, but he failed to give credit to either you, or our site, making it appear to racmu that it was his own work. I won't tolerate that. 

Do that again, Enda80, and you'll be banned.

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 12 Dec 2004 11:14 pm    Post subject: Guthrie family corrections
By Dhall

Some Guthrie family corrections: 



Guthrie, Thomas Zebulon Ty (mistakenly listed as Guthrie, Tyler) 
XFOR 96-FB 
**XFOR 95-FB 
**XFOR 96-FB 


Guthrie, Lucas Bartholomew (listed as Guthrie, Luke) 
XFOR 96-FB 
**XFOR 95-FB 
**XFOR 96-FB 
XFOR 96 

Guthrie, Lucinda 
**{ROM@3} 
**NM 42 
GENX 24-FB 
XFOR 32 
XFOR 33 
**XFOR 36 
**X 36 
**UX 95 
**GENX 23-BTS (mistakenly listed as GENX 23 in MCP) 
X 79-BTS-FB 
X-FOR 83 
(UX 437  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 438  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 439  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 440  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 441  not in MCP yet) 



Cannonball II / Samuel Zachary Guthrie (his middle name is not listed in the MCP) 
XFOR 96-FB 
**XFOR 95-FB-BTS 
**XFOR 96-FB 
{M/GN 4} 

Husk / Paige Guthrie 
**{NM 42} (mistakenly listed as bts in mcp) 
GENX 24-FB 
XFOR 32-FB 
XFOR 32 
XFOR 33 
NW 46 
XFOR 34 
XFOR 35 
XFOR 36 
X 36 

For some reason the MCP lists her as M/GN 4-BTS, shes really not. 

Icarus / Joshua Jay Guthrie 
(UX 439-FB  not in MCP yet) 
**{ROM@3} 
**NM 42 
XFOR 32 
XFOR 36 
X 36 
**UX 95 
X 79-BTS 
(UX 437  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 438  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 439  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 440  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 441  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 444  not in MCP yet) 
(X 157  not in MCP yet) 


Guthrie, Joelle 
**{ROM@3} 
**NM 42 
UX 95 

**Guthrie, Elizabeth 
NM 42 
X 36 
(UX 437  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 438  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 440  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 441  not in MCP yet) 


**Guthrie, Melody 
NM 42 
UX 95 
(UX 444  not in MCP yet) 


**Guthrie, Jebediah 
{ROM@3} 
NM 42 
X 36 
UX 95 
(UX 437  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 438-BTS  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 440  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 441  not in MCP yet) 

**Guthrie, Lewis 
{ROM@3} 
NM 42 
X 36 
UX 95 
(UX 440  not in MCP yet) 
(UX 441  not in MCP yet) 


Guthrie, unnamed twin sister of Lewis 
{ROM@3} 
NM 42 
X 36 
UX 95 


Guthrie, unnamed girl??? 
X 36 


Note: In X 48, Sam says that he has nine brothers and sisters, meaning that there are ten Guthrie childrenmost of them have names now. 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 12:04 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Guthrie, unnamed twin sister of Lewis 
{ROM@3} 
NM 42 
X 36 
UX 95 


Guthrie, unnamed girl??? 
X 36 
<<<


We won't be adding those. 


watching: the practice

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 07:49 am    
By Paul Bouricer
Director

Is it Jebediah or Jedediah? The Official Handbook of the MU, Deluxe Edition states the latter.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 02:12 pm    
By Dhall

Quote:
>>>
We won't be adding those
<<<

ah, you say that now..... 
but one day when they are named..... 


Quote:
>>>
Is it Jebediah or Jedediah? The Official Handbook of the MU, Deluxe Edition states the latter.
<<<

Good catch Paul: 
In Rom @3 his first app. it is Jedediah. However, in subsequent apps. X 36, and UX 437-441, the name is Jebediah. 
In apps. in between these issues, he is not referred to by name. 

Since he was only ever called Jedediah once, and has always been called Jeb or Jebidiah ever since, I would imagine that we would go with that. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 05:42 pm    
By lkseitz

I only count five of Cannonball's siblings shown in ROM@ 3. There are three boys and two girls. The only ones named are Jebediah (as Jedidiah) and Joshua. How'd you come up with six?
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 06:04 pm    
By Dhall

Lucinda is Sam's mother, not a sibling.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 10:59 pm    
By lkseitz

D'oh! Why didn't I think of that?  Probably because they didn't call her anything but "Mrs. Guthrie" in that issue.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 12 Dec 2004 08:38 pm    Post subject: Mysterio's first appearance
By SeanCurtin

Quentin Beck was one of the Tinkerer's disguised "aliens" in ASM 2. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 01:22 am    
By JLH

Yes, indeed he was. That's a clear instance of a retcon to try and ground Spidey more in "reality". Can't just be a weird tale featuring the Tinkerer and some aliens! Nope, has to be more than it seemed. 

And that's ASM 2/2, I believe.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 06:38 pm    
By SeanCurtin

That's right; the entry in the Tinkerer's chronology also needs to be amended from ASM 2 to ASM 2/2. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 10:50 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Are we referring to events from Spiderman: Chapter One? If so, then the MCP doesn't need changed, as Chapter One has been ruled non-canon.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 11:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

Mysterio's presence as one of the "alien invaders" in ASM 2/2 was revealed in PPSS 51.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 11:10 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Ah, I see...and here I thought in the "real" Marvel Universe, they really were aliens...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 12 Dec 2004 05:14 pm    Post subject: Blade
By meyakus

if what I understand is correct Blade made no appearances between the 6 issue Bart Sears story and the six issue Marvel Max storyline, is that correct? If so there are alot of loose ends that need to be tied up in Sears story, mainly a vampire (Darius Vagenian) running a Shield operation and what was the deal with that dude walking the desert? Did the characters Rank, Tipper, Makido and Mosha whom Blade was said to have hunted with in the past ever appear in any other Blade stories before, because I never recalled them in any Tomb of Dracula or Nightstalkers series.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 05:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

Correct, the threads from that series were left unresolved. But it was a commercial and critical disaster, so I can't see Marvel revisiting it. (Personally, I rate Bart Sears' BLADE as one of the worst comics ever published. Oh woe, woe is Blade, repeat x75.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 03:02 am    
By meyakus

I laughed out loud when I read your reply. That woe stuff was so annoying. And what was the deal with that Patriot guy. Honestly it's like Marvel really doesn't care about Blade that much. Now I never read the Sins of the Father graphic novel or the three issue series that came out in 98 but wasn't Blade's girlfriend named Safron? In the Max series when he visits her gravesite, her name is Yeshetaila or something like that. Maybe I missed a critical story where she changed her name but the Max series is 100 times better than the Sears story and the new Tomb of Dracula series is one of my current favorite reads. The issue with the snow vampires was awesome and the series is actually scary, every issue makes you feel like the protagonist can't win but they do.

			*	*	

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 04:56 am    
By meyakus

the movie version of Blade is much better than the character marvel created so I do like how Sears made the bite he recieved from Morbius in Peter Parker Spiderman 8 a way of making him a "Daywalker" vampire with enhanced strength. I thought his story had potential, but it just didn't have enough time. 
In the new Tomb of Dracual series did anyone else find it strange that when the fake descendant of Van Helsing told the story of Varnae's plight that it didn't seem to affect Blade at all? After all it was while fighting Varnae that the explosion occurred which killed the Nightstalkers who were Blade's close friends. Whoever wants to pick up a pretty good series I think Tomb of Dracula is it! All the different species of Vampires that have been involved in the series has made it a very exciting series. Every time Dracula sends a different species after them you can't possibly see a way how Blade's crew is going to get out of it especially with the Snow Vampires in issue 3, the best moment of the series so far. Only complaint is Dracula showing up with no explanation on how he survived being fried in Bloodstone no. 2

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 05:20 am    
By JLH

meyakus wrote: 
>>>
After all it was while fighting Varnae that the explosion occurred which killed the Nightstalkers who were Blade's close friends. 
<<<

That was retconned out by Christopher "Buffy Novel" Golden in the 1998 Cresent City Blues one-shot. Hannibal and Frank barely survived that explosion, and went into hiding. Which is a shame, since the Blade monthly book was working on making the pair having been merged into Dracula before it got canned. Anyway, I can't actually recall Frank appearing since, but Hannibal's been all over. Spider-Man Unlimited #20, several issues of Journey Into Mystery...

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 05:29 am    Post subject: Master Khan in Strange Tales#77
By Enda80

MASTER KHAN/TYRONE KING 
**ST 77 
M/PRM 22 
M/PRM 24 
IF 2 
IF 5 
IF 6 

Master Khan appeared first in a pre-hero story. The hair style is unmissable.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 09:04 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Is the character is ST 77 actually named Master Khan, or is he just a visually similar character? 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 09:10 pm    
By Ant-Man

He is named Master Khan 
Also, he magically puts a full-sized ship into a bottle, just like he did later in his Namor appearances...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 11:05 pm    Post subject: Flashbacks in XU2 6
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

Does anyone care to take a stab at placing the flashbacks in the first story in last week's X-Men Unlimited v2 #6? 

FB#1 -- Kitty Pryde and Peter Rasputin on their first date. It is noted that on their "next night out, we got ambushed by Mystique's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, and Peter nearly got killed," which I believe is a reference to UX 177. 

FB#2 -- Various points in time for Emma Frost, from her teen years to her time in the Hellfire Club. Then, we see her with Scott, Jean, and Logan (the three of whom are in their Morrison-era leathers) in...a restaurant?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 04:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Kitty/Peter flashback: This is supposed to be their second date, and we're told that the third one was interrupted by the Brotherhood - ie, it was the one in UX 177. I can't track down the first date which was supposedly interrupted by a robot - is something slipping my mind? Anyhow, it might as well go into the gap immediately before UX 177, which would give both of them:- 

... 
MK 35 
XU2 6-FB 
UX 177 
... 

Emma's first flashback is a one-panel vignette of her as a brunette having a date with a stereotypical jock, and clearly not enjoying it very much. This must take place before she left home. The obvious gap is between EMMA FROST #3-4, after her love interest teacher has been sacked and disappeared from the scene. The story jumps forward to the end of the school year at that point. 

Flashback 2 is a panel of Emma at university having a similarly unsuccessful date. I haven't finished analysing this period, but it obviously follows EMMA FROST #18. Presumably Emma completed her degree, so we might as well place it after GENERATION X #-1 as well (which has to take place shortly after EF 18 in an attempt to preserve her stated age as closely as possible). 

Flashback 3 shows Emma running Frost International and being patronised by the board of directors. She must be new at the job, and as far as I'm aware, we've never seen any flashbacks of she ended up with the company. This could probably fit into the same gap as the flashback above. 

Flashbacks 4 and 5 have Emma in two separate conversations with the other members of the Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club, which includes Mastermind. They might as well be placed together, because there's no need to separate them. As Mastermind is there, I'd place the flashback immediately before UX 129 (where the Club first shows up in the Dark Phoenix Saga). 

Flashback 6 has Emma talking with Scott, Jean and Wolverine, who are in their Morrison/Quitely costumes. Scott makes a comment to Emma that appears to spark her interest in him. Therefore it must come before NEW X-MEN 2001 (where she first makes an advance on him). That leaves it to go in a gap between NEW X-MEN #116, where the X-Men picked Emma up from Genosha, and NEW X-MEN 2001. The four characters seen in this flashback were all in NEW X-MEN 2001, so I suspect they're meant to be in a hotel just before embarking on that story.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 07:56 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Excellent, Paul. Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 09:03 am    
By jephyork
Director

Jean DIDN'T go to China with the rest of the group in X '01, though. She stayed behind at the mansion ... does that mess up your suggested placement of the final FB? 

-Jeph! 
(who doesn't yet have the issue and can't help) 

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 09:10 am    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

Good point - but it doesn't affect the placement, because the story would still have to go between NX 116 and NX '01. NX '01 was her first adventure with the X-Men, and the flashback is clearly intended to show her taking an interest in Scott for the first time.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 10:21 am    
By Ant-Man

I believe that Kitty and Peter's first date is shown in the 1st issue of the 2nd X-Men/Alpha Flight limited series
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 11:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

Yes, indeed. I confirm that. Good call, Ant-Man.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 04:00 pm    Post subject: Heroes Reborn character appearances
By RLG

Before I begin - 
1) I have seperated CA2 6 and FF2 6 into "6/1 and 6/2" as each issue has two stories. CA2 6/1 has the guest appearance of Cable and CA2 6/2 is the Industrial Revolution epilogue. FF2 6/1 is the conclusion of the Silver Surfer/Super Skrull storyline and FF2 6/2 is the Industrial Revoultion prologue. 

2) The chronological order is based on the recent Heroes Reborn calendar. 

3) For the characters who are from the Franklinverse/Counter-Earth II, I have chosen the "HR" (as in Heroes Reborn) suffix to denote their origin. 

4) The question marks beside FF2 12, A2 12, and IM2 12, are due to my uncertainity in whether or not those occur, or take place in alternate realities. If those issues occur in alternate realities, then Dr. Doom would be the only character who should be listed. 
However, the members of the FF are seen briefly in FF2 12 (on pg 3) just seconds after their appearance in FF2 11. My belief is that this scene does take place in the "our" reality, shortly before the timeline is split. 


***********CAPTAIN AMERICA (vol. 2) New Entries************** 

BARNES, JOHN - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 2 
CA2 4 
CA2 5 

BARNES, PEGGY CARTER - HR 
CA2 12 
YOUNG ALLIES 

BARNES, RICHARD "BUCKY" - HR 
CA2 12 
YOUNG ALLIES 

CLINTON, WILLIAM JEFFERSON BLYTHE - HR 
FF2 3 (BTS) 
CA2 7 

COUNTESS FOUNTAINE, VALENTINA DE LA - HR 
FF2 2 
CA2 7 
FF2 12 ? 

FURY, NICK - HR 
CA2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 

GUS THE HUMAN LUNK - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 2 
CA2 4 
CA2 5 

HAUPTMANN - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 2 
CA2 3 
CA2 4 
CA2 5 

HAWK, SHIELD AGENT - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 2 

MODOK - HR 
CA2 6/1 
A2 8 

O'BRIAN, LAPD DET. - HR 
CA2 9 

RED SKULL - HR 
CA2 2 
CA2 3 
CA2 4 
CA2 5 

ROGERS, PEGGY L.M.D. - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 2 
CA2 3 

ROGERS, RICK L.M.D. - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 2 
CA2 3 

SERPENT KING/NICK FURY L.M.D. - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 2 
CA2 3 
A2 1 
FF2 2 
FF2 3 
A2 2 
A2 3 
CA2 5 
A2 5 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
CA2 6/2 
A2 7 
A2 8 
CA2 7 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 
CA2 10 
CA2 11 

WILSON, ABE - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 3 (grave site only) 
CA2 12 (grave site only) 

ZEMO, BARON HEINRICH - HR 
CA2 6/1 
A2 8 
TB 59 
TB 60 
TB 61 
TB 62 


***********CAPTAIN AMERICA (vol. 2)Modified Entries************* 

BUCKY/RIKKI BARNES - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 2 
CA2 4 
CA2 5 
*WIZARD 1/2 (1ST STORY) 
* CA2 6/1 
* CA2 8 (FB) 
CA2 10 (FB) 
* CA2 10 
CA2 11 
CA2 12 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 
YOUNG ALLIES (FB) 
YOUNG ALLIES 
TB 52 (FB) 
TB 51 (BTS) 
TB 52 
*TB 62 
*TB 72 
*TB 74 
*TB 75 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS 
O:MU (FB) 
CA2 1 
CA2 2 
CA2 3 
A2 1 
FF2 3 
A2 2 
A2 3 
CA2 3 
CA2 4 
CA2 5 
*WIZARD 1/2 (1ST STORY) 
*CA2 6/1 
A2 4 
*A2 5 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
*CA2 6/2 
A2 7 
A2 8 
CA2 7 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 
*CA2 8 (FB) 
CA2 8 
CA2 9 
CA2 10 (FB) 
CA2 10 (FB) 
CA2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12? 
CA2 12 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 

CARTER, SHARON - HR 
CA2 1 
CA2 3 
CA2 5 

CROSSBONES - HR 
*CA2 3 
*CA2 4 
*CA2 5 
REBEL 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS "DUM DUM" - HR 
CA2 1 
*CA2 3 
*FF2 2 
*CA2 6/1 
*FF2 12 ? 
*A2 12 ? 

FALCON/SAM WILSON 
O:MU (FB) 
CA2 2 
CA2 3 
CA2 4 
CA2 5 
CA2 10 (FB) 
*CA2 10 
CA2 11 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 
A3 1 

MASTERMAN/ALEXANDER THE GREAT/GOD - HR 
CA2 1 
*CA2 2 
*CA2 3 
*CA2 4 
*CA2 5 
REBEL 


**************IRON MAN (vol.2) New Entries***************** 

BRAYDON - HR 
IM2 1 

DOC SAMSON/ DR. LEONARD SAMSON - HR 
IM2 1 
IM2 4 
IM2 5 
IM2 7 
IM2 8 
IM2 10 
IM2 11 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 

HOGAN, HAROLD J. "HAPPY" - HR 
IM2 1 
IM2 7 
IM2 8 
IM2 12 ? 

LIVING LASER/DR. ARTHUR PARKS - HR 
IM2 3 
IM2 4 
A2 9 (image only) 

MADAM HYDRA - HR 
IM2 9 (FB) 
IM2 1 
IM2 3 
IM2 4 
IM2 5 
IM2 7 
IM2 10 

MANDARIN ROBOT - HR 
IM2 5 
IM2 7 
IM2 10 

PARKS, AMY - HR 
IM2 3 

ROSS, GENERAL THADDEUS "THUNDERBOLT" - HR 
IM2 4 

ROSS, COMMANDER LIZ - HR 
IM2 1 
IM2 2 
IM2 4 
IM2 5 (FB) 
IM2 8 
IM2 12 ? 

SITWELL, JASPER - HR 
IM2 1 
IM2 2 
IM2 3 
IM2 4 
IM2 5 
IM2 7 
IM2 8 


****************IRON MAN (vol.2) Modified Entries************** 

CRIMSON DYNAMO/ ANTON VANKO - HR 
*IM2 10 
MASTERS OF EVIL 

HULK/BRUCE BANNER 
A1 
*IM2 11 
A 280 (FB) 

HULK III/BRUCE BANNER 
*O:MU (FB) 
IM2 1 
IM2 2 
IM2 4 
*IM2 5 
A2 4 
A2 5 
*IM2 5 (BTS) 
*FF2 6/2 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
H2 450/2 
IM2 8 
IM2 10 
IM2 11 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 
HR:R 1 
HR:R 2 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 

IRON MAN/ANTHONY "TONY" STARK 
A1 
*IM2 11 
A 280 (FB) 
.................................................................... 
IM2 9 - omit (false memory) 
IM2 1 - omit (false memory) 
* WIZARD 1/2 (2ND STORY) 
IM2 1 
IM2 2 
IM2 3 
IM2 4 
*IM2 5 (FB) 
IM2 5 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
*CA2 6/2 
H2 450/2 
*A2 7 
*IM2 7 
*IM2 8 
*IM2 9 
*IM2 10 
*IM2 11 
*A2 7 
*A2 8 
*A2 9 
*A2 10 
*A2 11 
*IM2 11 
*FF2 8 
*FF2 12 ? 
*A2 12 ? 
*IM2 12 ? 
*CA2 12 
* X 65 
HR:R 4 

REBEL/CONNER "REBEL" O'REILLY - HR 
*IM2 9 (BTS) 
*IM2 7 
*IM2 8 
*IM2 9 
*IM2 10 
*IM2 11 (seen as a corpse) 
REBEL 
TB 51 
TB 52 

MERLIN 
IM2 11 (I have no idea where this would fit in his chronology) 

POTTS, VIRGINIA "PEPPER" - HR 
*WIZARD 1/2 (2ND STORY) (BTS) 
*IM2 1 
*IM2 2 
*IM2 3 
*IM2 4 
*IM2 5 
*IM2 7 
*IM2 8 
*IM2 12 ? 
*X 65 (BTS) 
REBEL 

RAMA-TUT 
IM2 11 (I have no idea where this woudl fit in his chronology) 

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS 
FFV.X 1 
*FF2 7 (14p1) ~ FFV.X 2 (2p1) 
FFV.X 2 
*FF2 7 (14p5) ~ FFV.X 2 (5p2) 
FFV.X 2 
*FF2 7 (15p1) ~ FFV.X 2 (5p4) 
*FF2 7 (15P4) 
FFV.X 2 
....................................................................... 
FF 416 
*IM2 1 
*IM2 8 
*IM2 10 
*IM2 12 ? 
*CA2 12 
*HR:R 4 
A3 1 

TITANIUM MAN/BORIS BULLISKI - HR 
*IM2 10 
MASTERS OF EVIL 

WHIRLWIND/DAVE CANNON - HR 
*IM2 3 
*IM2 4 
*IM2 5 
*A2 8 
*A2 9 
MASTERS OF EVIL 


****************AVENGERS (vol.2) New Entries************** 

"BARBARIAN" THOR - HR 
A2 1 
FF2 3 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 5 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
CA2 6/2 
A2 7 
IM2 7 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 
A2 12 ? (corpse only) 

BLAKE, DR. DONALD - HR 
A2 1 

EBONY - HR 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 5 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 

ENCHANTRESS/AMORA - HR 
A2 1 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 

EXECUTIONER/SKURGE - HR 
A2 7 
A2 8 

GYRICH, PETER HENRY - HR 
A2 1 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 5 
A2 6 

HARKNESS, AGATHA - HR 
A2 1 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 

HELLCAT/PATRICIA WALKER - HR 
A2 1 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 5 (BTS) 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 

KANG - HR 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 8 

KLAW - HR 
A2 8 
A2 9 

LOKI - HR 
A2 1 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 

MANTIS - HR 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 8 

MJOLNIR - HR 
A2 1 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 5 
A2 6 (BTS) 
IM2 6 
CA2 6/2 
A2 7 
IM2 7 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 
A2 12 ? 

QUARTERMAIN/CLAY - HR 
A2 12 ? 

SELLARS, SHIELD LIAISON - HR 
A2 1 
A2 2 
A2 5 
A2 6 

ULTRON - HR 
A2 1 (as ULTRON I) 
A2 2 (as ULTRON II) 
A2 3 (as ULTRON III) 
A2 4 (as ULTRON IV) 
A2 7 (as ULTRON V) 
A2 8 (as ULTRON V) 

WONDERMAN - HR 
A2 7 
A2 8 


***************AVENGERS (vol.2) Modified Entries************* 

BLACK KNIGHT/PROF. NATHAN GARRETT - HR 
*A2 8 
*A2 9 
*YOUNG ALLIES (BTS) 
MASTERS OF EVIL 

GIANT-MAN/ANT-MAN III/DR. HENRY PYM 
O:MU (FB) 
A2 1 
A2 2 
*A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 5 (BTS) 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
*CA 12 
HR:R 4 
TB 10 (BTS) 

HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 
O:MU (FB) 
A2 1 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
*A2 5 (BTS) 
A2 6 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA 12 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 
TB 10 

MELTER/BRUNO HORGAN - HR 
*A2 8 
*A2 9 
MASTERS OF EVIL 

RADIOACTIVE MAN/DR. LIN CHU - HR 
*A2 8 
*A2 9 
MASTERS OF EVIL 

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF 
O:MU (FB) 
A2 1 
A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 
HR:R 4 
QS 7 (FB) 

SWORDSMAN/DEADPOOL - HR 
*A2 1 
*A2 2 
*A2 3 
*A2 4 
*A2 5 (BTS) 
*A2 6 
*A2 7 
*CA2 12 
REMNANTS (FB) 
REMNANTS (FB) 
REMNANTS 

THOR/DR. DONALD BLAKE 
A1 
*IM2 11 
A 280 (FB) 
.......................................................... 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 
HR:R 1 
HR:R 2 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 

VISION 
TB `97 (FB) 
A2 1 
*A2 2 
A2 3 
A2 4 
A2 5 
A2 7 
A2 8 
A2 9 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
*CA2 12 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 
TB 10 (FB) 

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE 
O:MU (FB) 
A2 1 
A2 2 
*A2 3 
*A2 4 
A2 9 
A2 10 
A2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 
HR:R 4 


**************FANTASTIC FOUR (vol. 2) New Entries************** 

AIR-WALKER - HR 
IM2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 

BLASTAAR - HR? (possible that this is EARTH-616 Blastaar) 
FF2 7 

BREWSTER, GURDON 
FF 300 
FF2 7 (16p4 <off panel>) ~ FF 300 (17p1) 
FF 300 
FF2 7 (16p5 <off panel>) ~ FF 300 
FF 300 

CASS - HR 
FF2 3 
FF2 6 (BTS) 

CHANG, COLLEEN - HR 
FF2 1 

DR. JOHNSON - HR 
FF2 8 

DUBECK - HR 
FF2 12 (appears before "time split") 

FIRELORD/PYREUS KRIL - HR 
FF2 9 
FF2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 

FRANKIE (RAYE?) - HR 
FF2 8 

GALACTUS - HR 
FF2 7 
IM2 10 (BTS) 
FF2 9 
FF2 10 
CA2 11 ? (uncertain if this is an actual appearance or a preview for next issue) 
FF2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 

GIGANTO - HR 
FF2 2 
FF2 3 

HERBERT, DR. ISAAC - HR 
FF2 1 

J'FAR [SKRULL] - HR 
FF2 1 ? (possibly disguised as SHIELD agent) 
FF2 4 ? (possibly disguised as SHIELD agent) 
FF2 5 
FF2 6 

LOCKJAW - HR (assumed to be "HR" version due to his small, slim build) 
FF2 8 
FF2 10 

MASTERS, ALICIA - HR 
FF2 3 
FF2 4 (BTS) 
FF2 6/1 
FF2 7 
FF2 8 
FF2 11 

MAXIMUS - HR 
FF2 9 (FB) 
FF2 9 
FF2 10 

MOLEMAN - HR 
FF2 1 
FF2 2 
FF2 12 ? 

M'TOMBA - HR 
FF2 4 

ORTHOS - HR 
FF2 2 
FF2 3 

PLASMA - HR 
FF2 10 
FF2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 

REVA - HR 
FF2 2 

REYNOLDS, SHIELD AGENT - HR 
FF2 12 ? 

RICHIE - HR 
FF2 1 
FF2 4 

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD - HR 
FF2 1 
FF2 4 (BTS) 
FF2 5 
FF2 6/1 
FF2 7 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
CA2 12 

STORM, MATTHEW - HR 
FF2 1 

SUPER SKRULL/KL'RT/"WYATT WINGFOOT" - HR 
FF2 1 
FF2 4 
FF2 5 
FF2 6/1 

TERRAX II/TYROS - HR 
IM2 10 
FF2 11 
FF2 12 ? 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 

TIFFANY - HR 
FF2 1 


**************FANTASTIC FOUR (vol.2) Modified Entries*********** 

BLACK BOLT/BLACKANTOR BOLTAGON 
FF 416 
*FF2 9 (FB) 
FF2 8 
FF2 9 
FF2 10 
FF2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
HR:R 4 

DR. DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM 
O:MU (FB) 
*IM2 9 (FB) 
FF2 1 
*IM2 1 (BTS) 
*IM2 5 (BTS) 
FF2 4 
FF2 5 
*FF2 6/1 
*FF2 6/2 
*IM2 7 (BTS) 
*IM2 8 (BTS) 
IM2 10 

DORMA - HR 
*FF2 2 
*FF2 3 
ASHEMA 
DOOM 

HARKNESS, AGATHA 
FF 223 
*FF2 7 
V&SW2 3 

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
FFV.X 2 
*FF2 7 (14p4) 
FFV.X 2 
........................................................ 
FF 300 
*FF2 7 (16p4) ~ FF 300 (17p1) 
FF 300 
*FF2 7 (16p5) ~ FF 300 (18p5) 
FF 300 
........................................................ 
O:MU (FB) 
FF2 1 
FF2 2 
FF2 3 
*A2 2 
IM2 3 
FF2 4 
FF2 5 
FF2 6/1 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
FF2 7 
H2 450/2 
FF2 8 
FF2 9 
FF2 10 
FF2 11 
FF2 12 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 
HR:R 1 
HR:R 2 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUSAN STORM RICHARDS 
FF@ 18 
*FF2 7 
FF 269 
............................................................. 
O:MU (FB) 
*FF2 3 (FB) 
FF2 1 
FF2 2 
FF2 3 
*A2 2 
IM2 3 
FF2 4 
FF2 5 
*FF2 6/1 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
FF2 7 
H2 450/2 
FF2 8 
FF2 9 
FF2 10 
FF2 11 
FF2 12 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 
HR:R 1 
HR:R 2 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 

KRANG - HR 
*FF2 2 
*FF2 3 
MASTERS OF EVIL 

LYJA LASERFIST/"ALICIA MASTERS STORM" 
FF 300 
*FF2 7 (16p1) ~ FF 300 (15p4) 
*FF2 7 (16p2 <off panel>) ~ FF 300 (15p4) 
*FF2 7 (16p2 <off panel>) ~ FF 300 (15p5) 
*FF2 7 (16p3 <off panel>) ~ FF 300 (15p5) 
FF 300 
*FF2 7 (16p4) ~ FF 300 (17p1) 
FF 300 
*FF2 7 (16p5) ~ FF 300 (18p5) 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
O:MU (FB) 
*WIZARD 1/2 (2ND STORY) 
FF2 1 
FF2 2 
FF2 3 
*A2 2 
IM2 3 
FF2 4 
FF2 5 
*FF2 6/1 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
FF2 7 
H2 450/2 
IM2 9 
A2 10 (moved) 
IM2 11 (moved) 
FF2 8 
FF2 9 
FF2 10 
FF2 11 
FF2 12 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 
HR:R 1 
HR:R 2 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 

PUPPETMASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS 
FF 300 
*FF2 7 (16p4) ~ FF 300 (17p1) 
FF 300 

RICHARDS, FRANKLIN 
FF 265 
*FF2 7 
FF 269 

ROGUE 
FFV.X 2 
*FF2 7 (14p4) ~ FFV.X 2 (4p2) 
FFV.X 2 

STORM 
FFV.X 1 
*FF2 7 (14p1) ~ FFV.X 2 (2p1) 
FFV.X 2 
*FF2 7 (15p4) 
FFV.X 2 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
O:MU (FB) 
FF2 2 
FF2 3 
FF2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
HR:R 4 

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
FF 5 
*IM2 11 
FF 5 
.................................................. 
FFV.X 2 
*FF2 7 (14p4) 
FFV.X 2 
................................................................ 
FF 300 
*FF2 7 (16p1) ~ FF 300 (15p4) 
*FF2 7 (16p2 <off panel>) ~ FF 300 (15p4) 
*FF2 7 (16p2 <off panel>) ~ FF 300 (15p5) 
*FF2 7 (16p3 <off panel>) ~ FF 300 (15p5) 
FF 300 
................................................................. 
O:MU (FB) 
* FF2 3 (FB) 
FF2 1 
FF2 2 
FF2 3 
*A2 2 
IM2 3 
FF2 4 
FF2 5 
*FF2 6/1 
A2 6 
IM2 6 
FF2 7 
H2 450/2 
IM2 9 
FF2 8 
FF2 9 
FF2 10 
FF2 11 
FF2 12 
A2 12 ? 
IM2 12 ? 
CA2 12 
HR:R 1 
HR:R 2 
HR:R 3 
HR:R 4 
X 71 (FB) ~ TB 10 (FB) 

WATCHER/UATU (uncertain where KZ4 10 & M/TU2 5 should go in relation to these appearances) 
O:MU 
*WIZARD 1/2 
*FF2 7 
*IM2 11 
*CA2 12 
????? 
*REMNANTS 
????? 

WINGFOOT/WYATT - HR 
*FF2 4 
*FF2 5 
*FF2 6/1 
ASHEMA 


WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
FFV.X 1 
*FF2 7 (13p3-4) ~ FFX.V 1 (24p5-6) 
FFV.X 2 
*FF2 7 (14p1) ~ FFV.X 2 (2p1) 
FFV.X 2 
*FF2 7 (14p5) ~ FFV.X 2 (5p2) 
FFV.X 2 
*FF2 7 (15p1) ~ FFV.X 2 (5p4) 
*FF2 7 (15p 3-4) 


***********HEROES REBORN: RETURN & BEYOND...************** 
***********************New Entries************************* 

ACOLYTE - HR 
REBEL 

ANOMALY/KOYAMI SAZUKI - HR 
TB 62 
TB 64 
TB 70 
TB 72 
TB 74 

BLAZE - HR 
REMNANTS 

CHAIN LIGHTNING - HR 
TB 59 
TB 60 
TB 61 
TB 62 

GUINNESS - HR 
REBEL 

IRON CROSS/HELMUT ZEMO - HR 
TB 59 
TB 60 
TB 61 
TB 62 

LI'L TIMMY - HR 
REMNANTS 

MASKESHIFT - HR 
TB 59 
TB 60 
TB 61 
TB 62 

PHANTOM EAGLE/LLOYD BLOCH - HR 
TB 59 
TB 60 
TB 61 
TB 62 
TB 66? (18p3) 
TB 68 

REBEL'S SON - HR 
REBEL 

ROTHCHILD, PROF. WARREN - HR 
HR:R 1 

SIMMS - HR 
YOUNG ALLIES 

SOLAAR - HR 
TB 59 
TB 60 
TB 61 
TB 62 

WAKANDAN PRINCE (NAME UNREVEALED) - HR 
DOOM 

WALKER, LELAND - HR 
YOUNG ALLIES 

WEAPON X - HR 
REMNANTS 


****************HEROES REBORN & BEYOND......****************** 
*********************Modified Entries*************************** 

AL-KHALED, ACHMED 
*DOOM (first name revealed) 
DOOM2 1 
DOOM2 2 

AMAZO MAXI-WOMAN/SUPER ADAPTOID - HR 
*A2 9 (image only) 
REMNANTS (FB) 
REMNANTS 

APOSTATE 
* I could be wrong, but isn' t Apostate the same Dreaming Celestial seen in Eternals limited series and FF 337 - FF 341? 

DIVINITY - HR 
*DOOMSDAY 
ASHEMA 
DOOM 

I.Q./ISHMAEL QUESTOR - HR 
TB 52 
*TB 72 
*TB 74 

KID COLT/ERLIC FREEDOM WHITEMANE - HR 
TB 52 (BTS) 
*TB 62 
*TB 72 
*TB 74 
*TB 75 

PANTHER CUB - HR 
REMNANTS (FB) 
*REMNANTS 

RIP/ORDER/KAOS - HR 
*YOUNG ALLIES (FB) 
YOUNG ALLIES 
*TB 52 (FB) 
*TB 62 
*TB 68 
*TB 70 
*TB 72 
*TB 74 
*TB 75 

TORO/BENITO SERRANO - HR 
TB 52 
*TB 62 
*TB 72 
*TB 74 
*TB 75

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 04:25 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

She-Hulk has a very happy existence, with multiple appearances in the mainstream MU during the Heroes Reborn event. Despite the claim in HR:R 4 that she is from the MU, she shows up in Heroes for Hire and, I believe, that Avengers Annual that showed Black Widow cleaning up Avengers matters after Onslaught. I want to say there were some other places, but I can't cite issue numbers offhand. 

Consequently, though, the HR She-Hulk must be a construct of Franklin's and not the "real" one.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 05:39 pm    
By RLG

Good call!! I had relied solely on her appearance in HR:R 4 and the gap in her chronology in the MCP. I probably should have double-checked FFPlaza.com. 
The FF2 7 (15p4) appearance and the "~" appearances in FF2 7 & FFV.X 2 SHOULD be counted as new appearances for Earth-616 She-Hulk. 

- RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 05:51 pm    
By Jim Smith

It's been a while since I read HFH, so correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Jen's appearances in that book after the Avengers returned? The MCP has HFH 8-9 set between the Prologue and Chapter 2 of A3 1. 

That just leaves the flashback story in Avengers 1999--in which Jen is one of the heroes who doesn't have time to help Black Widow rebuild the Avengers--to suggest that Jen wasn't in the Franklinverse. That's one lonely panel Jen appears in, in a comic that's already on shaky ground for failing to list the Vision among the Avengers who fell "died" in Onslaught. 

On the other side of the coin, you have Jen being among the heroes assembled to battle Onslaught in FF 416 (doesn't mean she jumped into Onslaught, but at least it establishes she was there), along with her participation in the exodus in HR:R 4. It's a major plot point in HR:R that the Celestials will only spare both realities if everyone returns to the reality where they belong--that what forces the heroes to abandon the only home they know, and what forces Thor to stop Doom from going back (at least until the Dreaming Celestial violated the agreement). 

So it comes down to the entire plot of HR:R 4 (and Spidey's priceless joke) versus what amounts to a throwaway panel in A '99-FB. Unless She-Hulk appeared somewhere else in the mainstream MU between FF 416 and A3 1, my vote is to ignore Jen's appearance in A '99 and treat the Franklinverse's Jen as the "real" one.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 06:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

She-Hulk clearly isn't among the heroes who enter Onslaught in O:MU; I believe that there are several other heroes who assemble to battle Onslaught in FF 416 but don't appear in O:MU. HR:R 4 depicting She-Hulk as one of the heroes who entered Onslaught was an error. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 08:10 pm    
By Jim Smith

I know, but just because we didn't see her go in doesn't mean she didn't off-panel. That's shaky reasoning, I'll admit, but it's backed up by the fact that Jen is there in HR:R 4--if she's there, she had to have gotten there, even if we didn't see it. (Why the other heroes seen in FF 416 didn't go in is curious, but that's neither here no there.) 

You're calling HR:R 4 a mistake because we didn't see her go in, but the only reason to assume she didn't go in is that HR:R 4 is a mistake.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 09:03 pm    
By SeanCurtin

No, the reason to assume that she didn't go in is that she wasn't shown going in. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 09:56 pm    
By Jim Smith

This is silly. O:MU doesn't state one way or another whether She-Hulk entered the pocket universe. If there was nothing else to go on, of course that would mean she didn't go in. But we've got HR:R 4 identifying her as being there. Since O:MU neither confirms nor denies that, how can it contradict that?

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2004 12:15 am    
By SeanCurtin

Both HR:R 4 and A '99-FB are retcons; HR:R 4 contradicts what was seen on panel, while A '99-FB contradicts the contradiction. If we're taking retcons into account, we should be taking the most recent one into account or ignoring them ccompletely. YMMV. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 06:34 am    Post subject: Kate Summers entry?
By Nathan P. Mahney

Does Kate Summers, mother of Cyclops, have an entry in the MCP? I was looking it up to see if her appearance as a ghost in UX 175 was listed, only to find that there was no entry where I looked. Does it not exist, or is it under an arcane codename somewhere?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 12:28 pm    
By Dhall

There have been various corrections and updates to her and Corsair's listings on this board, that haven't made their way into the MCP as of yet. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 16 Dec 2004 04:40 pm    Post subject: FF 374 / X 25     
By DCW3

Mr. Fantastic and the Thing make a brief cameo on pg. 6 of X 25, an homage to their appearance in UX 135. A footnote mentions that "these events take place before FF #374" --even though FF 374 was published seven months earlier. This footnote is necessary because the Thing gets his face slashed by Wolverine's adamantium claws in FF 374 and has scars that remain for some time afterwards, but his face is drawn as unscarred in X 25. Obviously the footnote was the editor's last-minute attempt to address an art error by Andy Kubert. 

The problem is that X 25 is the issue where Wolverine gets his adamantium ripped out by Magneto, and would thus seem to have to happen after FF 374. How can we explain this contradiction? 

There is one break in X 25 where we might be able to slot Wolverine's appearance in FF 374: between pages 11 and 12. After Xavier decides to launch an attack on Magneto, a text box says that "the X-Men disperse and prepare for their mission." The scene then cuts to an indeterminate amount of time later as Scott, Jean and Hank look over the Professor's plan. Reading the story, it seems like a short amount of time has passed, but it could easily be expanded to several hours, if we assume that Xavier took a while to put his plan together. 

In fact, in FF 374, Doctor Strange contacts Wolverine while he is ("casually") exercising in the Danger Room. It is easy enough to rationalize: Wolverine, feeling antsy and eager for some action, goes off to train while Xavier formulates his attack plan, and is happy to agree when Strange approaches him with a short mission. 

So, Wolverine's chronology would then read: 

UX 304 
X 25 (pg. 8-pg. 11) 
FF 374 
X 25 (pg. 12+) 
[W2 75] - not yet in MCP 

Because of the difference in publication dates between these two issues and the number of characters involved, this change would probably require the rejiggering of several characters' chronologies. The first priority would probably be finding a place to slot Mr. Fantastic and the Thing's appearance in X 25. I don't have any of the FF issues immediately preceding 374; does one of the FF experts want to take a crack at it? It just needs to be a time when they are both in Four Freedoms Plaza, and things are calm enough for Ben to take a bubble bath. If it helps, their appearance is an immediate reaction to Magneto's shock wave, which Cyclops says occurred at 11:55 PM EST. 

As an aside, Wolverine's chronology lists his appearance in FF 374 as occurring after SECDEF 1, while Dr. Strange's chronology has the order reversed. I know pointing this sort of thing out is occasionally frowned upon, but could someone double-check this? There's no time travel or anything going on, at least not in those two issues. I noticed this because my theory here means that Wolverine's appearances in SECDEF 1-3, with his adamantium claws, almost certainly have to occur before FF 374.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 08:28 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

DCW3 wrote: 
>>>
Because of the difference in publication dates between these two issues and the number of characters involved, this change would probably require the rejiggering of several characters' chronologies. The first priority would probably be finding a place to slot Mr. Fantastic and the Thing's appearance in X 25. I don't have any of the FF issues immediately preceding 374; does one of the FF experts want to take a crack at it? It just needs to be a time when they are both in Four Freedoms Plaza, and things are calm enough for Ben to take a bubble bath. If it helps, their appearance is an immediate reaction to Magneto's shock wave, which Cyclops says occurred at 11:55 PM EST. 
<<<

I think the bigger issue (WRT Reed and Ben appearing in FFP) is how Four Freedoms Plaza is depicted. They've just finished up the Infinity War (in #370) and the top several floors of the building have been blown up. Do we see the exterior of Four Freedoms Plaza as a point of reference, or is it just noted in the captions? If we see the exterior, we'd have to push this prior to the Infinity War -- around FF #365. If we just see interior shots, we could go as late FF #371.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 01:47 pm    
By DCW3

We don't see an exterior shot...and in fact, now that I look at it, the captions don't specifically say they're in Four Freedoms Plaza either, just "Manhattan." Ben is in the bathtub and Reed is in a room surrounded by gadgets, so the assumption is that it's their headquarters. 

How much before FF 374 does FF 371 take place? It starts to strain credibility if the second half of X 25 (page 12 onward) takes place more than about a day or so after the magnetic pulse, to which Reed and Ben respond on page 6, and FF 374 has to occur in the interim.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 03:19 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I won't be able to get to my books to verify this until Sunday evening at the earliest, but to the best of my recollection... 

#370 is the end of the Infinity War, and the book ends with the FF at Four Freedoms Plaza, trying to clean up, and with Susan getting into her pissy phase.  

#371 starts an undetermined amount of time later. FFP is still in disrepair, and Johnny heads over ESU. He's attacked by Devos and Paibok, who he defeats by nova blasting a fair portion of campus. I believe he returns to FFP at the end of the story. 

#372-373 must occur in fairly short order after #371. Basically, Torch goes on the run from the law, and JJJameson hires Silver Sable to track him down. Spider-Man becomes involved at some point and... 

#374 starts with Spidey asking Doc Strange for help. He convinces "The Secret Defenders" (formerly, "The New Fantastic Four"  ) to help track down Johnny. They do, to which Johnny replies by finally signaling the rest of the FF... they all get into a big brawl, Wolverine slashes Ben's face, and the FF are mysteriously transported away leaving the Wolvie, et. al. to do whatever. To the best of my knowledge, we never see what actually takes place with the Secret Defenders immediately afterwards; the story follows the FF, and never returns back to that thread. 

With that said, I would guess no more than a couple of days pass between #371 and #374. Again, I don't have the issues handy to actually look this up, but I recall that when Johnny is finally found by the FF in #374, he's only got some ever-so-slight beard growth from being on the run for a day or two. Dialogue and/or captions could corroborate or disprove that, once I get a chance to do this without relying solely on memory. 

I suppose it's possible for X 25 to occur sometime as late as in the middle of FF 374, but I would imagine Ben would not lounge in a bubble bath if he and his team are supposed to be helping look for Johnny. The storyline, ultimately, follows Johnny very closely, though, and does allow plenty of free time for Reed and Ben if we absolutely need to push X 25 as late as FF 374.

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Posted: 17 Dec 2004 07:48 pm    
By RLG

Here's what I've got: 

DAY 1 - Daytime; begins just before lunch. 
FF 371 - Reed, Ben, and Ms. Marvel are captured by Aron the Watcher while searching for Alicia in the Artic Circle. Johnny sets fire to ESU while battling Paibok, Devos, and Lyja. 

FF 372 - Johnny surrenders to Code:Blue and is scheduled for arraignment "this afternoon (11p4)." When Pabok and Lyja attack, Johnny escapes from police custody and becomes a fugitive. Reed and company continue to be captives of Aron. 

DAY 1 - Nighttime - rainy weather 
FF 372 - Later, Spider-Man searches for Johnny and JJ Jameson hires Silver Sable and the Wild Pack to hunt down the Torch. 

DAY 2 - Daytime 
FF 373 - Dr. Doom learns of Aron's capture of Reed and company. "Pissy" Sue demands Matt Murdock settle the ESU issue. Under the Puppetmaster's control, the Molecule Man battles Aron. 

DAY 2 - Nighttime 
FF 373 - Later, Spidey, Silver Sable and the Wild Pack track down Johnny, but he escapes. Reed, Ben and Sharon escape as Dr. Doom defeats Aron. 

DAY 2 - Shortly before midnight 
X 25 - Reed and Ben appear shortly after returning from the Artic Circle. 

DAY 3 - Nighttime - early hours of the new day 
FF 374 (1 -3) - Spidey goes to Dr. Strange for help in capturing Johnny. Dr. Strange contacts Wolverine (in Danger Room), "smart" Hulk (in Reno, NV) and Ghost Rider (in Cypress Hill.) 

FF 374 (4-22) - The team searches for Johnny. They locate him and battle the "new" FF. Wolverine slashes Ben's face. The team is teleported away from the battlesite. 

- RLG

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Thread 25

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 05:32 pm    Post subject: Spectacular Spiderman #22: Electro
By Kevin W.
Director

In the pages of Spec. Spiderman #22, there is a "montage" sequence that shows Peter going about his regular business for a few days, all the while thinking about Mindworm, and worrying what to do about him. During this "montage" sequence, we see one panel where Spiderman is fighting Electro. Now I could be wrong, but Electro appears to be wearing his MK Spiderman costume, (I know, there's not THAT much difference, but there is some differences). So my question is: Is this an actual appearance, or is this just a generic shot of Electro vs. Spiderman. 

By "generic shot" I mean a scene (often a flashback scene) showing the hero and villian locked in combat, yet doesn't reference an actual battle. Like if Peter was thinking back in his head to all the battles he's fought with the Green Goblin over the years, and above him we see an image of Spidey facing the Goblin. Is this something like that? The dialog during this "montage" scene is what throws me off... 

And if this is an actual appearance of Electro, then it's more confirmation that the Spec. Spiderman issues do indeed happen after MK Spiderman and "Sins Past" in Amazing Spiderman.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 18 Dec 2004 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 17 Dec 2004 09:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
And if this is an actual appearance of Electro, then it's more confirmation that the Spec. Spiderman issues do indeed happen after MK Spiderman and "Sins Past" in Amazing Spiderman. 
>>>


Well, that would be true only if Electro is shown to adopt the costume for the very first time in M/KS-M. If that's not the case, then the Spectacular Spider-Man (what IS the code?) appearance could come before M/KS-M. But the whole organic web shooters business is still the main factor in assigning placement here, unless of course, they disappear toute-de-suite. 

But yes, I consider the sequences you mention to be real events occurring in the span of days referenced in issue #22. I think it counts as an official Electro appearance. 

And of course, there's Electro's latest chronological appearance in New Avengers #1.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Dec 2004 12:25 pm    
By Kevin W. 
Director

Well, the way Electro was bragging about his new costume in M/KS-M #3, it seemed to be the first time he'd worn it, (around Spiderman at least). But dammit, you just reminded me...in New Avengers #1, Electro is in his old costume! And I kinda doubt we can put New Avengers #1 to happen before the whole M/KS-M storyline... 

Yeah, I guess the presence of organic webshooters is still our main indicator of Spidey's chronology...(just watch, I bet we'll get a reference to mechanical webshooters in the pages of New Avengers). 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 18 Dec 2004 12:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Let's not forget that Electro appears in classic costume in S-H3 6 too. Popular guy these days.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 26

Posted: 18 Dec 2004 07:37 am    Post subject: Spider-Man in Avengers 1.5
By OnionMan

Hi! 

I noticed that in Spider-Man's listing his appearance for Avengers #1.5 is listed before Amazing Spider-Man #6. However in Marvel Saga #10 it is stated that Amazing Spider-Man #6 occurs before Avengers #1. 

This is a quote from "the continuity corner" from Marvel Saga #10. 

Quote: 
>>>
"Between Spider-Man's first encounter with the Lizard (A.S.M. #6) and the formation of the Avengers (Avengers #1), Thor defeats a mutant who impersonates the wizard Merlin but is later to be known as the Maha Yogi (J.I.M. #96, September 1963)" 
<<<


At the moment the MCP-listing looks like this: 
.. 
ST@ 2 
A 1.5 (Should be after ASM 6 ??) 
ASM 6 
UTSM 1 
.. 

Is there any specific reason for placing them as they are now, or could A 1.5 & ASM 6 switch places? 

/ OnionMan

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Posted: 18 Dec 2004 12:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

You're right, OnionMan. I actually have Spidey in A 1.5 after UTSM 2.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 27

Posted: 18 Nov 2004 11:31 pm    Post subject: Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes #2
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

Here's my take on how Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes fits into the team's chronology: 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #1 (pages 19-23) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America 

AVENGERS #4 (page 4, panel 1-page 15, panel 4) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Sub-Mariner 

SAGA OF THE SUB-MARINER #8 (page 19, panels 5-6) 
Sub-Mariner, Lord Seth 

AVENGERS #4 (page 15, panels 5-6) 
Sub-Mariner, Lord Seth 

SAGA OF THE SUB-MARINER #8 (page 19, panel 7-page 20, panel 2) 
Sub-Mariner, Lord Seth 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (pages 1-15) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Edwin Jarvis 

AVENGERS #4 (pages 16-23) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Sub-Mariner, Lord Seth 

... 

AVENGERS #5 (page 3, panel 4 - page 15) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Hulk, Molto, Thunderbolt Ross, Betty Ross, Jane Foster, Jinku, Lava Men 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (pages 16-18) 
Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Lava Men 

AVENGERS #5 (page 16 - page 18, panel 4) 
Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Lava Men 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (page 19, panel 1) 
Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones 

AVENGERS #5 (page 18, panel 5) 
Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (page 19, panel 2) 
Thor 

AVENGERS #5 (page 18, panel 6) 
Thor, Iron Man-BTS, Giant-Man-BTS, Wasp-BTS, Captain America-BTS, Rick Jones-BTS 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (page 19, panels 3-5) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones 

AVENGERS #5 (page 18, panel 5 - page 23) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Hulk, Molto, Thunderbolt Ross, Betty Ross, Jane Foster, Jinku, Lava Men 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (pages 20-22) 
Iron Man (as Tony Stark), Special Agent Murch 


I find it curious that A:EMH 2 places "one week" between Cap's joining the team in A 4 and the battle with the Lava Men in A 5. Olshevsky placed two months (and a number of other Avengers-related comics) between those events, and the MCP is based on that work. If the sequence of comics featuring the Avengers is still valid, surely more than a week is involved. 

And Special Agent Murch -- I wonder if he's any relation to Peter Parker's gym teacher from this same time period, as seen in Untold Tales of Spider-Man #5. 
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 18 Dec 2004 10:30 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 19 Nov 2004 07:52 pm  
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
And Special Agent Murch -- I wonder if he's any relation to Peter Parker's gym teacher from this same time period, as seen in Untold Tales of Spider-Man #5.  


Would you believe, Mr. Murch went undercover at Midtown High to investigate the Living Brain? 

-Sean

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 03:40 pm    
By John Simons

Howdy Paul- 

Why did you decide to slip the first half of A: EMH 2 into a gap in A 4, rather than just placing it between A 4 and 5? Where do you suppose the alien was overnight (p16pn1 of A 4 says it's "the next day"), if not at the mansion? And how did the Pentagon get appropriate paperwork (mentioned on p5pn5 of A: EMH 2) to the mansion so fast? I can't see any reason why the exam of Cap and his settling into the mansion couldn't happen after the fight with Namor. 

By the way, when I first read this issue I wondered how we could get around Cap "meeting" Rick on two different occasions. Then I realized since Cap isn't in costume in the A: EMH 2 scene, Rick either a) may not've realized who he was or b) was purposely re-intoducing himself in hopes that Cap would tell him his real name (which he does) 

Cap must've never gotten around to reading the papers about "back pay", and subsequently lost them. IIRC, Steve doesn't actually get his army back pay until years later, early in the Gruenwald run of his comic. 

Also, Kolins draws the mansion with a front yard again. Whoops. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (pages 1-14) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Edwin Jarvis 
<<<

I think your numbering might be off. The scene with Jarvis ends on p15, not 14. 


Quote: 
>>>
AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (pages 15-17) 
Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Lava Men 
<<<

Given the above comment, do you really mean pp 16-18 here? If so, I would argue that 15 and 16 fit okay in the place you put them, but page 18 is clearly showing the same scene as A 5 p.17pn3-6. 


Quote: 
>>>
AVENGERS #5 (page 18, panel 5) 
Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (page 18, panel 2) 
Thor 

AVENGERS #5 (page 18, panel 6) 
Thor, Iron Man-BTS, Giant-Man-BTS, Wasp-BTS, Captain America-BTS, Rick Jones-BTS 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #2 (page 18, panels 3-5) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones 

AVENGERS #5 (page 18, panel 5 - page 23) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Hulk, Molto, Thunderbolt Ross, Betty Ross, Jane Foster, Jinku, Lava Men 
<<<


You've got me confused. Not only do I think you're talking about p 19 of A: EMH here, but do you see how you've mention p18pn5 of A 5 twice? 

Finally, what is your reasoning for putting the end of A: EMH between A 6 and 7 rather than A 5 and 6? I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't see any clues which would suggest that placement.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 04:51 pm    
By Jim Smith

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Why did you decide to slip the first half of A: EMH 2 into a gap in A 4, rather than just placing it between A 4 and 5? Where do you suppose the alien was overnight (p16pn1 of A 4 says it's "the next day"), if not at the mansion? And how did the Pentagon get appropriate paperwork (mentioned on p5pn5 of A: EMH 2) to the mansion so fast? I can't see any reason why the exam of Cap and his settling into the mansion couldn't happen after the fight with Namor.  
<<<

Because immediately after the fight with Namor, the Avengers ask Cap to join. In the first half of EMH the team is still debating whether that would be such a good idea, and Cap is being treated as a guest instead of a member. 


Quote: 
>>>
By the way, when I first read this issue I wondered how we could get around Cap "meeting" Rick on two different occasions. Then I realized since Cap isn't in costume in the A: EMH 2 scene, Rick either a) may not've realized who he was or b) was purposely re-intoducing himself in hopes that Cap would tell him his real name (which he does) 
<<<

I chalked it up to Cap's faulty memories, seeing as they're mentioned explicitly in EMH 2 and hinted at in A 4 when he has no clear memory of the Sub-Mariner. Cap's amnesia has never been depicted affecting memories after he was thawed, but since the amnesia eventually cleared up, it could be argued that it was incredibly bad at first, to the point of causing short-term memory loss. This would help explain why everybody in EMH 2 is not only questioning Cap's fitness to be an Avenger but his mental faculties as well. 

Of course, the idea that Cap is meeting Rick once as Cap in A 4 and once as Steve Rogers in EMH 2 is simpler, although I think Casey's intent was for this to be their first meeting period, and for Rick to be in on Cap's secret. (I can't recall exactly when Stan Lee had Cap reveal his identity to Rick, so having Rick know right away may not make sense.) At any rate, there's at least one good explanation for how the two scenes can both occur.

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 10:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

John, 

Jim addressed a couple of your comments. I'll skip those and deal with your others. 

Quote: 
>>>
Cap must've never gotten around to reading the papers about "back pay", and subsequently lost them. IIRC, Steve doesn't actually get his army back pay until years later, early in the Gruenwald run of his comic.  
<<<

True, true. And Cap used the money to set up his hotline. 


Quote: 
>>>
I think your numbering might be off.  
<<<

Yes, it is. I've edited the post and added one to the page numbers in A:EMH 2 from page 14 on. They should number the dadblamed pages like they did in the old days for those of us who are numerically challenged. 


Quote: 
>>>
but page 18 is clearly showing the same scene as A 5 p.17pn3-6. 
<<<

I think you're talking about Giant-Man's helicopter scene here, and I knew someone would bring this up. I theorize that Hank used a helicopter TWICE during this battle: 

First, in the helicopter scene in A:EMH 2, the Avengers are battling the Lava Men ON THE SURFACE and CAP IS FREE. 

Then, in A 5, the team goes underground and Cap gets "cinderized" (trapped in a spiral of hardened cinders). He is that way when Hank goes back up to the surface to fetch the helicopter and do his trick all over again. 

Given the inconsistencies regarding the setting and Cap's status, I was forced to create a sequence of events that made sense of both helicopter scenes. 


Quote: 
>>>
Finally, what is your reasoning for putting the end of A: EMH between A 6 and 7 rather than A 5 and 6? I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't see any clues which would suggest that placement. 
<<<

We'd be hard-pressed to place that final scene in A:EMH 2 (featuring Stark and Murch) between A 5 and 6. Look at the narrative on page 1 of A 6..."While stopping in Chicago to refuel their jetcopter on its flight from the West to New York in answer to a call from the Teen Brigade (see the ending of 'Avengers' #5...editor), the Avengers watch their newest member demonstrate the many ways he can use his famous colorful shield..." There is no gap between A 5 and 6.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 03:31 am    
By Jim Smith

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I theorize that Hank used a helicopter TWICE during this battle: 

First, in the helicopter scene in A:EMH 2, the Avengers are battling the Lava Men ON THE SURFACE and CAP IS FREE. 

Then, in A 5, the team goes underground and Cap gets "cinderized" (trapped in a spiral of hardened cinders). He is that way when Hank goes back up to the surface to fetch the helicopter and do his trick all over again. 

Given the inconsistencies regarding the setting and Cap's status, I was forced to create a sequence of events that made sense of both helicopter scenes. 
<<<

This seems like a bit of contrivance (ordinarily, I'd call the EMH scene an art error), but it's actually a pretty good contrivance. I know that if I had recently gained Giant-Man's powers, I'd be showing off that helicopter trick as much as possible.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 08:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, indeed. I try to make sense of scenes as depicted before writing things off as art errors, and sometimes it works. The narration in A 5 says "the towering titan has only raced to the surface long enough to seize the Avengers' helicopter." That supports the underground setting of what I theorize to be the second helicopter stunt. Cap's situation was the first clue that this couldn't be the same scene as the one in A:EMH 2, but then I noticed the surface-underground discrepancy.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Dec 2004 10:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Finally, what is your reasoning for putting the end of A: EMH between A 6 and 7 rather than A 5 and 6? I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't see any clues which would suggest that placement. 
<<<

We'd be hard-pressed to place that final scene in A:EMH 2 (featuring Stark and Murch) between A 5 and 6. Look at the narrative on page 1 of A 6..."While stopping in Chicago to refuel their jetcopter on its flight from the West to New York in answer to a call from the Teen Brigade (see the ending of 'Avengers' #5...editor), the Avengers watch their newest member demonstrate the many ways he can use his famous colorful shield..." There is no gap between A 5 and 6. 
<<<


I take it back. Issue #3 of Earth's Mightiest Heroes forces a gap between A 5 and 6. In fact, "a week" passes between pages 15 and 16 of A:EMH 3, and pages 16-22 of A:EMH ties directly into A 6. So yes, let's place that scene with Stark and Murch in A:EMH 2 shortly after A 5. 

I'll edit my original post here and start a new thread about A:EMH 3.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 28

Posted: 18 Dec 2004 10:45 pm    Post subject: Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes #3
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

Picking up from where we left off at the end of A:EMH 2, I think I've figured out a way to integrate A:EMH 3 with A 6 and MARVELS 2. As with A:EMH 2, I've had to force scenes from the new series into existing canon in ways that are slightly clunky, but...with one exception...things seem to work okay without declaring A:EMH a retcon. 

The exception: the final page of A:EMH 3 involves Cap being left unconscious and wearing a shredded mask on a rooftop following Zemo's getaway. Giant-Man is there with Cap's unconscious body. At the end of A 6, however, Giant-Man runs to a site where Cap and other Avengers are to declare that Zemo took off. Cap is perfectly fine. I just cannot reconcile these two scenes. Assuming A:EMH 4 doesn't resolve this, we'll have to declare one scene canonical (likely A 6) and one not (likely A:EMH 3). Here's another case of a situation in which we'd end up picking and choosing scenes from a comic title to be canonical and throwing out other scenes. Is this acceptable, or do we toss out all of A:EMH 3, or do we disregard the entire series? 


AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (flashback) 
(one day; must be mid-February) 
Hulk (BTS) 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (1-3) 
Giant-Man (as Hank Pym), Wasp, Iron Man, Pepper Potts, (Special Agent Murch) 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (4-15) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Edwin Jarvis, Special Agent Murch, Paul Wallace 

AVENGERS #6 (pages 1-2) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones 

AVENGERS #6 (page 5, panel 1-page 13) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Black Knight III, Melter, Radioactive Man, Baron Zemo, Trapster (as Paste Pot Pete) 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (page 16) 
Black Knight III, Melter, Radioactive Man 
[Note: it is "a week" after A:EMH 3 pg. 4-15.] 

AVENGERS #6 (page 14, panel 1) 
Black Knight III 

MARVELS #2 (page 1, panel 1-page 4, panel 1) 
Iron Man, Captain America, Phil Sheldon, Barney Bushkin, Black Knight III, Radioactive Man 

AVENGERS #6 (page 14, panel 2-page 15, panel 3) 
Thor, Black Knight III 

MARVELS #2 (page 4, panel 2) 
Thor, Black Knight III 

AVENGERS #6 (page 15, panel 4-page 16, panel 3) 
Thor, Giant-Man, Black Knight III, Radioactive Man 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (page 17, panels 1-2) 
Giant-Man, Wasp, Radioactive Man 

AVENGERS #6 (page 16, panel 4-page 17, panel 3) 
Iron Man, Giant-Man, Radioactive Man 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (page 17, panel 3-page 18, panel 2) 
Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, Black Knight III, Radioactive Man, Baron Zemo 

AVENGERS #6 (page 17, panel 4) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Black Knight III, Radioactive Man 

MARVELS #2 (page 4, panel 3) 
Radioactive Man 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (page 18, panel 3-page 19, panel 3) 
Iron Man, Giant-Man, Radioactive Man, Melter 

AVENGERS #6 (page 17, panel 5-page 18, panel 5) 
Iron Man, Melter 

MARVELS #2 (page 4, panel 4) 
Iron Man, Melter 

AVENGERS #6 (page 18, panel 6-page 19, panel 2) 
Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Baron Zemo 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (page 19, panel 4-page 20) 
Captain America, Baron Zemo 

AVENGERS #6 (page 19, panel 3-page 22, panel 3) 
Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Baron Zemo 

MARVELS #2 (page 4, panel 5-page 5, panel 3) 
Giant-Man, Phil Sheldon, Fred, Wasp (BTS) 

AVENGERS #6 (page 22, panels 4-6) 
Thor, Giant-Man, Black Knight III 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (page 21) 
Captain America, Baron Zemo 

AVENGERS #6 (page 22, panel 7) 
Giant-Man, Baron Zemo (BTS) 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #3 (page 22) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Black Knight III 
CONFLICTS WITH... 
AVENGERS #6 (page 23) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Black Knight III, Baron Zemo (BTS) 
[/quote]
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Dec 2004 10:49 am    
By jephyork
Director

Or we could wait to see if #4 swings things back around to previously-established continuity... 

-Jeph!

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Thread 29

Posted: 19 Dec 2004 06:06 pm    Post subject: FF in H2 399
By RLG

While looking over FF chronology between IW and IC, I realized what a mess it is. Sue's new costume, references to the ESU fire, the damaged FF Plaza, not to mention the launch of Fantastic Four Unlimited, all create a huge mess. 

In H2 399, Reed and Johnny make an appearance in an undamaged FF Plaza. The FF Plaza was damaged during the Infinity War and took quite some time to be fully repaired. Currently, H2 399 is placed after the mega IW crossover. 

Question: Is there anyway to push H2 395 - 407 to occur BEFORE IW 1? I only have H2 399 in my collection, so I am unable to research this for myself. I am assuming that the H2 issues in question happen without a break. Of course, if there is a break before H2 407, can the first part occur before IW ? 

I appreciate any help as it will quicken my work on the FF mess. 

- RLG (glad to be out of the Franklinverse)

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Thread 30

Posted: 20 Dec 2004 12:24 am    Post subject: Dr. Druid/Droom's early appearances
By SeanCurtin

The MCP lists Dr. Druid's first appearances as WWT 19-22, but these were actually heavily edited/retconned and out-of-order reprints of the Dr. Droom stories from Amazing Adventures vol. 1 #1-3 and a story from TTA 12 that was edited to replace the protagonist with Dr. Druid. The latter story is credited properly in Gorgilla's chronology, but not in Druid's. Of the other two "Dr. Droom" stories, the story from AA 4 was retold and retconned in the opening sequence of M/U 4, and the story from AA 6 hasn't been reprinted. Druid was also the 'host' of a few other stories in WWT 19-22, but I wouldn't personally count those appearances as strictly canonical (unless the Wasp narration in the monster stories from TTA is also canonical). 

DOCTOR DROOM 
See DOCTOR DRUID 

DOCTOR DRUID/ANTHONY LUDGATE/"ANTHONY DRUID"/"ANTHONY DROOM" 
*AA 1/4 | WWT 19 
*AA 2/3 | WWT 22 
*AA 3/4 | WWT 20/2 
**AA 4/4 | M/U 4 (Droom/Druid versus two aliens; the M/U version retcons the original story by having Druid kill them rather than making them flee) 
**AA 6 
*TTA 12 | WWT 21/2 (note that TTA 12 was published before AA 1, so you can't go by publication order here) 
M/U 4 

The lama revealed in ASPOT 37 to be the Ancient One also appeared in AA 1. 

ANCIENT ONE 
DRSTR2 51-FB 
*{AA 1} | WWT 19 | ASPOT 37 
DRSTR3 84-FB 

-Sean

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Thread 31

Posted: 07 Dec 2004 10:50 pm    Post subject: Thor's Avenger chronology
By captamr

Thors chronology in his Avengers appearances needs a little adjusting during the assault on Avengers mansion by the Masters of Evil in A 276 and A 277. Theyre currently placed within T 375 where Thors arm is already broken and Tony Stark creates his new armored arm. A better placement is the gap suggested in the footnote on pg. 8, pn. 6, of A 276 and already utilized by the Project for Thors other Avenger appearances during this time period. Thor returns to Earth after many months in Asgard in his own book in T 373. Pgs. 5  7 provide a nice gap for placement. Some confusion may have arose as Thor already feels the effect of his battle with Mr. Hyde in A 276 easily explained by the slow onset of Helas curse as revealed in T 373 (pg. 19, pn. 7). Thor as yet has no broken arm from his battle with the Marauders in T374 nor wears any armor. The new suggestions are: 

THOR 

T 373 
**A 276 
**A 277 
DD 233 
E2 12 
. 
---- 
. 
T 374 
T 375 
A 276  omit 
A 277  omit 
T 375 - omit (no need to split) 
T 376 


While were in this time zone, I also dont see the Wrecker in A 275. Plenty of Wrecking Crew but no Wrecker. Hes there so maybe his listing should be a BTS. 


ASIDE: Great Busema / Palmer classic Avenger art, my vote for the definitive look, but whose asking?
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 08 Dec 2004 12:32 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

captamr wrote: 
>>>
Thors chronology in his Avengers appearances needs a little adjusting during the assault on Avengers mansion by the Masters of Evil in A 276 and A 277. Theyre currently placed within T 375 where Thors arm is already broken and Tony Stark creates his new armored arm. A better placement is the gap suggested in the footnote on pg. 8, pn. 6, of A 276 and already utilized by the Project for Thors other Avenger appearances during this time period. Thor returns to Earth after many months in Asgard in his own book in T 373. Pgs. 5  7 provide a nice gap for placement. 
<<<

Thor's placement is taken from The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers (vol. 2) #5, which states that Thor appears in Avengers #276-277 between pages 20 and 21 of Thor #375. "A better placement" isn't sufficient reasoning, in light of this being the placement that Marvel has officially announced. As we mention elsewhere, the Indices are not mistake-free, but we need to be shown why it can't happen the way Marvel says, before we rule that Marvel's made a mistake. 

In fairness, that may be what you've attempted to do in your discussion of broken arms and Hela's spells, but to be brutally honest, I can't tell. For instance: 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
Some confusion may have arose as Thor already feels the effect of his battle with Mr. Hyde in A 276 easily explained by the slow onset of Helas curse as revealed in T 373 (pg. 19, pn. 7). 
<<<

Well, I know my confusion has arose  . Explain it to us again, but this time, pretend I'm dull-witted, pretend I haven't read the story. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
While were in this time zone, I also dont see the Wrecker in A 275. Plenty of Wrecking Crew but no Wrecker. 
<<<

This, too, was taken from The Official Index. After studying the issue, I agree. I don't see him. So we've proven, I think, that the Index is mistaken, in this particular case. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
ASIDE: Great Busema / Palmer classic Avenger art, my vote for the definitive look, but whose asking? 
<<<

Palmer and Terry Austin, in my mind, are the best inkers ever, in that they make every penciller they work with look good. 


watching: death star

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Posted: 08 Dec 2004 03:48 am    
By DonCampbell

You seem to have two conflicting chronologies. Rather than choose between them, I'm going to suggest a third option, one which I feel is better than both the others. But first, let's get the basic facts straight. 

First, Thor was unknowingly cursed by Hela as he was returning to Earth after a long stay in Asgard (shown on page 2 of THOR #373) 

Second, Thor first learned of the curse after his left arm was broken battling the Marauders in THOR #374 as part of the Mutant Massacre storyline. Hela appeared near the end of the story to tell Thor what she had done. 

Third, POWER PACK #27 was also part of the Mutant Massacre crossover and took place after Angel's wings were impaled in THOR #373. 

Fourth, POWER PACK #28 took place (just) after the Mutant Massacre (in PP #27) and featured the Power children and Franklin Richards visiting Avengers Mansion and being welcomed by Jarvis and Hercules. 

Fifth, the Masters of Evil occupied Avengers Mansion in AVENGERS #273-277. During this storyline, both Jarvis and Hercules were severely injured and the mansion was badly damaged. Thor showed up to help the Avengers battle the Masters of Evil in AVENGERS #276-277. While he had no obvious injuries, Thor was seen to flinch when attacked by Mr. Hyde and he had to grit his teeth when he told Ant-Man that he was fine. This is considered proof that he was already being affected by Hela's curse. 

Sixth, a footnote on page 8 of AVENGERS #276 states that "This story takes place between pages 5 and 7 of THOR #373." 

Seventh, the Absorbing Man was part of the Masters of Evil storyline and he was defeated and captured in AVENGERS #275. 

Eighth, Thor traveled to Tony Stark's lab in California in THOR #375 to seek protection for his broken arm. After donning some armour that Stark made for his arm, Thor returned to New York City but was caught in a scheme of Loki's that ended with him battling the Absorbing Man. In THOR #376, Thor sent Creel to another dimension and then collapsed. THOR #377 showed that Thor began forging a special suit of Asgardian armour only two days after being released from the hospital but he wasn't able to don that armour until THOR #378. 


After looking over these facts, what conclusions can we come to? First, the idea that AVENGERS #276-277 takes place between pages 5 and 7 of THOR #373 is contradicted by the fact that Jarvis and Hercules are both uninjured (and Avengers Mansion is undamaged) in POWER PACK #28. Since that issue takes place just after the Mutant Massacre crossover (AND after THOR #373), that means that the whole Masters of Evil storyline MUST take place AFTER the Mutant Massacre storyline. In other words, Thor's appearance in AVENGERS #276-277 must take place after the end of THOR #374. Of course, that means that Thor's arm should be broken in those AVENGERS issues. Why the arm doesn't seem to be injured is something that has to be explained away but I feel that it must be easier to deal with that inconsistency than it would be to explain how Jarvis and Hercules could go from being severely injured to healthy and back to severely injured. 

Second, the Absorbing Man's capture in AVENGERS #275 must take place before his battle with Thor in THOR #375-376 because the latter storyline ends with him trapped in another dimension from which he doesn't escape until his next appearance in INCREDIBLE HULK #347-348. The Official Marvel Index tries to get around this by claiming that the Masters of Evil storyline takes place between page 20 and 21 of THOR #375 but that idea doesn't work for me. THOR #375 clearly shows Thor getting caught up in Loki's plot while returning to New York from California. The whole reason why Thor fell for Loki's trap and initially believed that the Absorbing Man he encountered (as soon as he returned to NYC) was another replica was because he had JUST battled replicas of the Man-Beast and the Wrecker while flying back from California. If his involvement in the MoE storyline had occurred between pages 20 and 21, then he would have assumed that he was fighting the real Creel who had escaped since his capture in AVENGERS #275. Right? 

Anyway, here's what I believe Thor's chronology for that period should be: 

T 373 (pages 1-5) - Thor returns to NYC, unaware that he is cursed. 

[DD 233, E2 12, WCA@ 1 - all take place between pages 5 & 7 of T 373] 

T 373 (pages 7-23) - Thor finds Angel in the sewers and becomes involved in the Mutant Massacre. 

T 374 - Thor's left arm is broken and he learns that Hela has cursed him. [PP #27-28 also take place after T 373] 

A 276-277 - Thor helps defeat the Masters of Evil (while *somehow* hiding the fact that his left arm is broken). 

T 375-376 - Thor travels to California to get protection for his arm from Tony Stark, battles replicas of the Man-Beast and the Wrecker while flying back to NYC, and then finds himself battling the real Absorbing Man as soon as he arrives in NYC. 

T 377-378 - Forced to face the fact that Stark's armour just isn't helping him enough, Thor forges a suit of Asgardian armour and, after a few delays, begins wearing that armour. 

Comments? 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 09 Dec 2004 01:20 am    
By captamr

Quote: 
>>>
Third, POWER PACK #27 was also part of the Mutant Massacre crossover and took place after Angel's wings were impaled in THOR #373.  
<<<

I hadn't even considered Power Pack's involvement because I'd assumed that the Mutant Massacre was already over. Angel was hung up to dry in X-Factor#11, not necessarily in T 373. That's when Thor found him and ended the battle in the tunnels with his giant plasma blast. 


Quote: 
>>>
the idea that AVENGERS #276-277 takes place between pages 5 and 7 of THOR #373 is contradicted by the fact that Jarvis and Hercules are both uninjured (and Avengers Mansion is undamaged) in POWER PACK #28. Since that issue takes place just after the Mutant Massacre crossover (AND after THOR #373), that means that the whole Masters of Evil storyline MUST take place AFTER the Mutant Massacre storyline.  
<<<

I would contend that Power Pack entered the tunnels at night (PP 27) and exited them all in one night. Avengers mansion is visited at dawn (PP 28). I would suggest dawn of the next morning long before Thor has any adventures on Earth after his long time in Asgard. Power Pack encounters X-Factor searching for Angel but nothing is established to say that Angel has already been impaled. 

Avengers' mansion is taken over at night (11:31 pm - A 273,pg.22, pn.1). I would suggest the same day as Power Pack's visit. Hercules incapacitated by the next morning and Thor's intervention during the same day. Meanwhile, the Mutant Massacre still continues through the Manhattan tunnels as well as several issues of X-Men and X-Factor. I would again suggest this occurring between pages 5 and 7 of Thor #373. 


Quote: 
>>>
Thor showed up to help the Avengers battle the Masters of Evil in AVENGERS #276-277. While he had no obvious injuries, Thor was seen to flinch when attacked by Mr. Hyde and he had to grit his teeth when he told Ant-Man that he was fine. This is considered proof that he was already being affected by Hela's curse.  
<<<

Agreed. There are far too many battle scenes in A277 involving Thor's left arm to assume he's hiding a broken arm. He even takes out Goliath with his left arm, hammer in hand (A277, pg.9, pn.5). T 374 shows his arm bent and misshapen after the break and completely immobile. I would contend that Thor goes on with his other adventures after helping save Avengers' mansion as the massacre continues in the tunnels and resumes with Thor entering the tunnels at the end of T 373. This also solves the problem of the Absorbing Man as his capture occurs before his meeting with Thor in T 376. The storyline seems to work better this way and I believe originally intended as the footnote in A 276 states. It requires the belief that the Massacre maybe took a few days to complete which isn't too hard to believe given the magnitude of so many crossover issues so that Power Pack can visit an unattacked mansion rather than a 2-issue battle scene with Thor and a broken arm. 


Quote: 
>>>
This, too, was taken from The Official Index. After studying the issue, I agree. I don't see him. So we've proven, I think, that the Index is mistaken, in this particular case. 
<<<
 
This isn't the first time I've noted discrepancies with the Index as others have. I would suggest that they only be used as a guide. The expertise on this Project far exceeds any other source I've ever run across and should be the authority in chronology matters if it isn't already considered as such.
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 09 Dec 2004 10:09 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

captamr wrote: 
>>>
This isn't the first time I've noted discrepancies with the Index as others have. I would suggest that they only be used as a guide. The expertise on this Project far exceeds any other source I've ever run across and should be the authority in chronology matters if it isn't already considered as such. 
<<<

The problem with that is that you're essentially saying that we should declare ourselves to be the authority on the subject - which is more than a little circular. 

Besides, the Indexes (like the Official Handbook) bear an official Marvel endorsement; they may contain errors which can legitimately be ignored, but nonetheless they represent Marvel's official statement on the content of its own universe. The starting point must be to assume that they're right until proven otherwise, just as the starting point with a story is to assume that it means what it says unless something is demonstrably an error.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 09 Dec 2004 04:02 pm    Post subject: Mutant Massacre vs. Masters of Evil's Takeover
By DonCampbell

captamr wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Third, POWER PACK #27 was also part of the Mutant Massacre crossover and took place after Angel's wings were impaled in THOR #373.  
<<<

I hadn't even considered Power Pack's involvement because I'd assumed that the Mutant Massacre was already over. Angel was hung up to dry in X-Factor#11, not necessarily in T 373. That's when Thor found him and ended the battle in the tunnels with his giant plasma blast. 
<<<

Two points. First, Angel's wings were impaled on the last page of X-FACTOR #10. The Marauders were about to kill him until Thor intervened in the last four pages of THOR #373. Thor carried and protected Angel throughout most of THOR #374 until meeting Scott and Jean and turning Angel over to them. It was Scott and Jean who brought Angel to X-Factor's HQ in X-FACTOR #11, arriving just before Thor's energy wave hit. 

Second, Thor didn't end the massacre with his giant plasma blast, he cleansed the tunnels AFTER the massacre was over, when (supposedly) there weren't any mutants remaining alive in them. Thor generated that energy blast in the last two pages of THOR #374, and it was seen on the last page of UNCANNY X-MEN #212 and on page 10 of X-FACTOR #11. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
the idea that AVENGERS #276-277 takes place between pages 5 and 7 of THOR #373 is contradicted by the fact that Jarvis and Hercules are both uninjured (and Avengers Mansion is undamaged) in POWER PACK #28. Since that issue takes place just after the Mutant Massacre crossover (AND after THOR #373), that means that the whole Masters of Evil storyline MUST take place AFTER the Mutant Massacre storyline.  
<<<

I would contend that Power Pack entered the tunnels at night (PP 27) and exited them all in one night. Avengers mansion is visited at dawn (PP 28). I would suggest dawn of the next morning long before Thor has any adventures on Earth after his long time in Asgard. Power Pack encounters X-Factor searching for Angel but nothing is established to say that Angel has already been impaled. 
<<<

Actually, it IS established. On page 21 of POWER PACK #27, as the Marauders are forced to retreat from Power Pack and X-Factor, Harpoon says, "And soon they'll find the one called Angel and learn the cost of balking the Marauders!" And since it was only Thor's intervention that prevented the Marauders (including Harpoon) from killing Angel, Thor MUST have been on Earth by the time that Power Pack encountered Harpoon. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
Avengers' mansion is taken over at night (11:31 pm - A 273,pg.22, pn.1). I would suggest the same day as Power Pack's visit. Hercules incapacitated by the next morning and Thor's intervention during the same day. Meanwhile, the Mutant Massacre still continues through the Manhattan tunnels as well as several issues of X-Men and X-Factor. I would again suggest this occurring between pages 5 and 7 of Thor #373. 
<<<

I would say that the events in POWER PACK #27 take place late in the massacre, after most of the killing has taken place. Their encounter with Wolverine (referenced in UX #212) takes place after Storm told Logan to stay behind in the tunnels to obtain a prisoner for interrogation. 

One problem with the crossover is that there isn't any consistent sense of the elapsed time involved. While UNCANNY X-MEN and NEW MUTANTS clearly show that the X-Men (especially Wolverine) were involved for over a full day, THOR and X-FACTOR seem to think that a much shorter time, maybe only a few hours, elapsed before Thor cleansed the tunnels. 

My own opinion is that the whole "massacre" lasted for no more than 48 hours. The first murders took place on the same night as the two Central Park fights (X-Men vs. Lords Cardinal, and X-Factor vs. Freedom Force) but it wasn't until the next day that any surface people got involved. X-Factor stumbled across the Marauders while searching for Artie and the X-Men came to help only after a dying Morlock traveled to the X-mansion to alert them. The resulting battles continued into the night until the X-Men turned their attention to rescuing survivors and bringing them back to the mansion. It was at this point that Storm told Wolverine to stay behind and it was later that night when he encountered Power Pack and sent them home (or so he thought). Wolverine's hunt for the Marauders continued through the next day and it was night again before he returned to the X-Mansion, barely avoiding Thor's energy wave. 

Here's my basic timeline of events: 
NIGHT ONE - Central Park battles are fought, first murders are commited. 
DAY TWO - X-Factor stumbles across the murders, a dying Morlock alerts the X-Men, and a frog tells Thor that something terrible is happening. 
NIGHT TWO - Battles with various Marauders are fought, the X-Men begin rescue operations. Wolverine meets Power Pack. 
DAY THREE - Wolverine continues his hunt. Power Pack and Franklin visit Avengers Mansion. New Mutants disappear. 
NIGHT THREE - Thor cleanses the tunnels with his lightning. Masters of Evil occupy Avengers Mansion? 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Thor showed up to help the Avengers battle the Masters of Evil in AVENGERS #276-277. While he had no obvious injuries, Thor was seen to flinch when attacked by Mr. Hyde and he had to grit his teeth when he told Ant-Man that he was fine. This is considered proof that he was already being affected by Hela's curse.  
<<<

Agreed. There are far too many battle scenes in A277 involving Thor's left arm to assume he's hiding a broken arm. He even takes out Goliath with his left arm, hammer in hand (A277, pg.9, pn.5). T 374 shows his arm bent and misshapen after the break and completely immobile. I would contend that Thor goes on with his other adventures after helping save Avengers' mansion as the massacre continues in the tunnels and resumes with Thor entering the tunnels at the end of T 373. This also solves the problem of the Absorbing Man as his capture occurs before his meeting with Thor in T 376. The storyline seems to work better this way and I believe originally intended as the footnote in A 276 states. It requires the belief that the Massacre maybe took a few days to complete which isn't too hard to believe given the magnitude of so many crossover issues so that Power Pack can visit an unattacked mansion rather than a 2-issue battle scene with Thor and a broken arm. 
<<<

While I agree that the battle scenes in AVENGERS #277 were clearly written by someone who thought that Thor was uninjured at that time, I don't think that story elements which indicate the takeover must take place after the massacre should just be ignored. POWER PACK #27 MUST take place within THOR #374 which means that Avengers' Mansion MUST be intact during the massacre which means that Thor's arm MUST be broken before he appears in AVENGERS #276-277. Clearly the writers and editors involved in the crossover didn't keep each other that well informed. For my part, I really don't know how this inconsistency should be handled. My best explanation would be that Thor was able to use some sort of magic to "heal" his arm long enough to battle the Masters of Evil but that the enchantment didn't last long and/or couldn't be repeated so he went to Tony Stark to seek a remedy that was longer-lasting (and based on science instead of magic). 

One other thing. While Hela's curse struck Thor on page 2 of THOR #373, the Odinson wasn't immediately affected. It's only on page 19, as Thor goes down into the tunnel system, that Hela is shown saying, "Shortly, the potent spell will BEGIN to take effect." If Thor's weakness during battle in AVENGERS #276-277 really is due to Hela's curse, then those scenes must take place after page 19 of THOR #373 because the curse wasn't active before then, right? 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 11 Dec 2004 01:32 am    
By captamr

I think our biggest point of contention is the need for enough time to pass to allow Power Pack to get in and out of the tunnels, visit Avengers mansion before the Masters of Evil battle with Thors participation, and eventually have Thor go down into the tunnels and save Angel. 

Quote: 
>>>
First, Angel's wings were impaled on the last page of X-FACTOR #10. The Marauders were about to kill him until Thor intervened in the last four pages of THOR #373. 
<<<

Angel was impaled at the end of X-Factor #10, but the Marauders obviously left Angel to continue their purge of the tunnels: 


Quote: 
>>>
On page 21 of POWER PACK #27, as the Marauders are forced to retreat from Power Pack and X-Factor, Harpoon says, "And soon they'll find the one called Angel and learn the cost of balking the Marauders!" 
<<<

As Thor arrives in the tunnels, Harpoon and the other Marauders are returning to the scene of the crime, probably to further enjoy their handiwork. In T 374, pg.4, Thor notes Angels head is feverish. Again, unless Harpoon dips his points in a fast acting contagion, it will take some time for Angels infection to cultivate. 

Don, your arguments are very compelling and Ive thoroughly enjoyed reliving the massacre, but I still feel that Thors participation in the mansion battle without an obvious broken arm (an important plot point in the armoring of Thor which follows in subsequent issues) is slightly more important than Power Packs visit after the Mutant Massacre (rather than during) and the other inconsistencies that youve already mentioned that are required with a later placement of the mansion battle such as the Absorbing Man appearance. I guess only time will tell.
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 11 Dec 2004 02:07 am    
By captamr

Quote: 
>>>
The problem with that is that you're essentially saying that we should declare ourselves to be the authority on the subject - which is more than a little circular. 

Besides, the Indexes (like the Official Handbook) bear an official Marvel endorsement; they may contain errors which can legitimately be ignored, but nonetheless they represent Marvel's official statement on the content of its own universe. The starting point must be to assume that they're right until proven otherwise, just as the starting point with a story is to assume that it means what it says unless something is demonstrably an error. 
<<< 


Perhaps not an absolute authority. But consider that Marvel is a collection of writers, artists, and editors whose sole purpose is to tell a large grand story made up of characters who entertain us and who over the years have literally taken on a life of their own. The indexers are Marvel sanctioned but surely have some economical publishing motive to continue the legend. 

All Im saying is that The Project has a purer goal and therefore maybe a little more insight and wisdom brought about by the care and love for the product and greater view of the big picture. What may have started as one persons interest in the Marvel Universe, certainly has expanded to something more as he surrounds himself with others who match his vision and passion. The son sometimes becomes wiser than the father and the student sometimes learns more than the teacher. I would recognize the knowledge of the people that have currently been brought together and not casually dismiss their insight because it wasnt sanctioned. This is no disrespect to Marvel (we have nothing without them) just an appreciation for an incredible sight. 

I'll shut up now.
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 04:09 am    
By DonCampbell

Once more unto the breach... 

captamr wrote: 
I think our biggest point of contention is the need for enough time to pass to allow Power Pack to get in and out of the tunnels, visit Avengers mansion before the Masters of Evil battle with Thors participation, and eventually have Thor go down into the tunnels and save Angel. 

Quote: 
First, Angel's wings were impaled on the last page of X-FACTOR #10. The Marauders were about to kill him until Thor intervened in the last four pages of THOR #373. 

Angel was impaled at the end of X-Factor #10, but the Marauders obviously left Angel to continue their purge of the tunnels: 

Quote: 
On page 21 of POWER PACK #27, as the Marauders are forced to retreat from Power Pack and X-Factor, Harpoon says, "And soon they'll find the one called Angel and learn the cost of balking the Marauders!" 

As Thor arrives in the tunnels, Harpoon and the other Marauders are returning to the scene of the crime, probably to further enjoy their handiwork. In T 374, pg.4, Thor notes Angels head is feverish. Again, unless Harpoon dips his points in a fast acting contagion, it will take some time for Angels infection to cultivate. 


Okay, I see where you're going with this...but it doesn't work. First off, you're only assuming that there is a chunk of elapsed time between the end of X-Factor #10 and the end of Thor #373. I don't see any evidence of this. From my point of view, it looks like the last page of X-Factor #10 leads directly into the last four pages of Thor #373. That's how I read it and that's how I think it was meant to be read. 

However, for the sake of argument, let's assume that you're right and that Angel was pinned to the tunnel wall for "some time" before Thor arrived and rescued him. How exactly would that help? Remember, the whole Mutant Massacre is bound pretty tightly together. At most, the massacre spreads out over three nights and two days. Here is my revised timeline of events: 

Night One - Central Park battles are fought, first murders are commited. 

Day Two (morning) - Outside the Hellfire Club, Magneto and X-Factor recognize each other (UX #210 = XF #9). 

Day Two (afternoon) - X-Factor stumbles across the murders while looking for Artie, a dying Morlock alerts the X-Men, a frog tells Thor that something terrible is happening? 

Night Two - Battles with various Marauders are fought, Angel's wings are impaled, the X-Men begin rescue operations; later, Wolverine meets Power Pack. 

Day Three (morning) - Power Pack and Franklin visit Avengers Mansion. 

Day Three - Wolverine continues his hunt. New Mutants disappear. 

Night Three - Thor cleanses the tunnels with his lightning. Masters of Evil occupy Avengers Mansion by 11:31 PM. 

If I understand you correctly, you want the whole takeover of Avengers' Mansion by the Masters of Evil (and their subsequent battle with Thor) to take place between Power Pack #27 and Thor #373-374...and that just doesn't work. Since Power Pack's visit to the tunnels MUST take place during Night Two, that means that their visit to the (undamaged) mansion MUST take place in the morning of Day Three. And if that's the case, the the MoE takeover CANNOT occur before late Night Three...which MUST be after Thor's arm was broken. 

The only way you could get the MoE takeover coming before the end of the Mutant Massacre would be if you were willing to stretech the Massacre out by at least another day, like this: 

Day Three (morning) - Power Pack and Franklin visit Avengers Mansion. 

Day Three - Wolverine continues his hunt. 

Night Three - Masters of Evil occupy Avengers Mansion by 11:31 PM. 

Day Four - Wolverine continues his hunt. Avengers (including Thor) retake Avengers' Mansion. 

Day Four (afternoon) - New Mutants disappear, a frog tells Thor that something terrible is happening, Thor rescues Angel. 

Night Four - Jean And Scott return Angel to X-Factor HQ just before Thor cleanses the tunnels with his lightning. 

At first glance, this looks doable...but it isn't. First, there's X-Factor's chronology to consider. If you read issues #10-11, writer Louise Simonson clearly seems to be under the impression that X-Factor's involvement in the massacre only lasted a matter of hours, from Day Two into Night Two and (maybe) into Day Three. It's hard enough trying to accomodate the extra day that Chris Claremont depicted in UX #212 and NM #46. Adding yet another day into the timetable would totally wreck X-Factor's apparent elapsed time. 

Second, there's the story in Thor #373 itself. Thor's visit to the Morlock tunnels is part of a series of events. In the late afternoon, "Sigurd" goes to visit his friend Jerry Sapristi and ends up having dinner at the Sapristi home and spending the night in their spare room. The next day, Sigurd takes the Sapristi children to Central Park where the frog Puddlegulp finds him and tells him that something terrible is happening in the tunnels. If you're right and Thor doesn't enter the tunnels until Day Four, then he must spend Night Three with the Sapristis, and that would mean that the whole takeover storyline must occur within Thor #373, between pages 12 & 13. I just can't see that happening. 


captamr wrote: 
Don, your arguments are very compelling and Ive thoroughly enjoyed reliving the massacre, but I still feel that Thors participation in the mansion battle without an obvious broken arm (an important plot point in the armoring of Thor which follows in subsequent issues) is slightly more important than Power Packs visit after the Mutant Massacre (rather than during) and the other inconsistencies that youve already mentioned that are required with a later placement of the mansion battle such as the Absorbing Man appearance. I guess only time will tell. 


When I first began this discussion, I had a feeling that (years ago) I had had something more than Power Pack #27-28 to indicate that the Mutant Massacre must have occurred before the MoE takeover but I just couldn't remember what. Well, now I have and its the chronology of the second Spider-Woman that is my proof. Let's start with a few facts: 

First, Hercules was badly injured and rendered comatose by the MoE during their occupation of Avengers' Mansion in Avengers #273-277. Therefore, any story from that general period which includes a healthy, conscious Hercules must take place before Avengers #273. 

Second, Hercules appears, hale and hearty, in Avengers Annual #15 and West Coast Avengers Annual #1, as well as in Power Pack #28, so those stories MUST take place before the MoE occupation. 

Third, the second Spider-Woman was a member of Freedom Force during their Central Park battle with X-Factor in X-Factor #8-9. Therefore, any story in which she is no longer a FF member must take place after X-Factor #9. 

Fourth, Spider-Woman betrayed Freedom Force and became a hunted fugitive when she freed the Avengers from unjust captivity in Avengers Annual #15, so that story MUST take place after the Central Park battle and after (at least) the first day of the Mutant Massacre. 

If you put these facts together, you come to the inescapable conclusion that the Central Park battles (and the Mutant Massacre) occurred before the Avengers were imprisoned on (false) charges which occurred before the Masters of Evil occupied Avengers' Mansion. There's just no way that Thor's appearance with an unbroken arm in Avengers #276-277 can take place BEFORE the Mutant Massacre during which his arm was broken. 

If you need more convincing, Spider-Woman's other appearances should be enough. After turning against Freedom Force in Avengers Annual #15, Iron Man #214 showed her on the run from bounty hunters until she turned herself in and agreed to work as an undercover agent. Peter Parker #125-126 showed that her first assignment involved the Wrecking Crew. After battling the whole Wrecking Crew in Denver, she continued her mission and travelled to New York City where she found that all of the Crew except the Wrecker had been captured AFTER the MoE's occupation of Avengers' Mansion ended. Peter Parker #125 makes the sequence of events very clear. First battling X-Factor with Freedom Force, then betraying Freedom Force to help the Avengers, then meeting Iron Man while on the run, then battling the Wrecking Crew before they took over Avengers' Mansion, then battling the Wrecker alongside Spider-Man after the occupation of Avengers' Mansion was over. 

Of course, this means that there are at least TWO stories (A 276-277 and WCA@ 1) which show Thor as uninjured at a time when his left arm should (MUST?) already be broken. 

Comments? 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 05:48 pm    
By RLG

I have to admit, it has been a while since I looked at these storyline, but is it possible that Thor's broken arm has "slightly" healed shortly before A 276-277 and WCA@1 and later suffered a set-back? Perhaps it would have something to do with the resiliency of his Asgardian physiology or a delayed effect of Hela's curse? 

After this, anybody up for working out a day-to-day breakdown of Inferno? 

- RLG

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 07:28 pm    
By Jim Smith

RLG wrote: 
>>>
I have to admit, it has been a while since I looked at these storyline, but is it possible that Thor's broken arm has "slightly" healed shortly before A 276-277 and WCA@1 and later suffered a set-back? Perhaps it would have something to do with the resiliency of his Asgardian physiology or a delayed effect of Hela's curse? 
<<<

I'm not sure why Hela's curse would be delayed, or allow even slight healing between the two stories. She's going to curse him to an unrelenting torment, but give him a few days' notice before it kicks into gear? 

From the sound of things, the only good explanation is that Thor went into A 276-277 and--in spite of what had to be incredible pain--made no effort to favor the broken arm, using it as much as he would in any battle. It's crazy of him to do that, but it's consistent with his refusal to admit his condition to the Avengers until A 282, by which point it's become impossible to conceal.

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Posted: 17 Dec 2004 12:15 am    
By DonCampbell

I agree that it's unlikely that Hela's curse would be delayed or allow any healing whatsoever. On the other hand, it seems equally unlikely that Thor would be able to use his broken arm in battle in the same way he would have if it weren't broken. 

In the face of these two impossible options, the only explanation that has occured to me is the one I mentioned in an earlier post. Maybe Thor was able to use some sort of magic to make his arm function (and look) as though it was uninjured but the enchantment didn't last long and/or couldn't be repeated so he later went to Tony Stark to seek a remedy that was longer-lasting (and was based on science instead of magic). 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 17 Dec 2004 01:49 am    
By Jim Smith

True, but as I recall, Thor proceeded to do a lot of stuff in his own book that found unlikely in his condition. It's been a while since I read the storyline, but if I remember correctly Thor's problem wasn't limited mobility (which we mere mortals would suffer with a broken bone) so much as the pain caused by trying to go about his business without wearing any casts or splints.

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Posted: 18 Dec 2004 05:08 pm    
By captamr

Hi Don! 


One more timeFirst, let me be the first to admit that my theory requires that the Mutant Massacre be spread out over days which is the weakness of my argument. However, for the sake of the overall chronology, it is the only way we can have multiple battle scenes involving Thor without a broken arm. Again, a more important plot point as this leads to whole new storyline and costume change in Thors life, which I continue to believe was the original intent by the writers and more important than stretching the timelines of X-Factors adventures. 

First, one point: 
Quote: 
>>>
First off, you're only assuming that there is a chunk of elapsed time between the end of X-Factor #10 and the end of Thor #373. I don't see any evidence of this. From my point of view, it looks like the last page of X-Factor #10 leads directly into the last four pages of Thor #373. That's how I read it and that's how I think it was meant to be read. 
<<<

The Marauders must leave Angel hanging to encounter Power Pack and brag about impaling him (PP 27) and then return to see Thor in T 373. The importance here is to establish yet another period of elapsed time and the most important. 

Now the timeline: 
Quote: 
>>>
The only way you could get the MoE takeover coming before the end of the Mutant Massacre would be if you were willing to stretech the Massacre out by at least another day, like this: 

Day Three (morning) - Power Pack and Franklin visit Avengers Mansion. 

Day Three - Wolverine continues his hunt. 

Night Three - Masters of Evil occupy Avengers Mansion by 11:31 PM. 

Day Four - Wolverine continues his hunt. Avengers (including Thor) retake Avengers' Mansion. 

Day Four (afternoon) - New Mutants disappear, a frog tells Thor that something terrible is happening, Thor rescues Angel. 

Night Four - Jean And Scott return Angel to X-Factor HQ just before Thor cleanses the tunnels with his lightning. 

At first glance, this looks doable...but it isn't. First, there's X-Factor's chronology to consider. If you read issues #10-11, writer Louise Simonson clearly seems to be under the impression that X-Factor's involvement in the massacre only lasted a matter of hours, from Day Two into Night Two and (maybe) into Day Three. It's hard enough trying to accomodate the extra day that Chris Claremont depicted in UX #212 and NM #46. Adding yet another day into the timetable would totally wreck X-Factor's apparent elapsed time. 
<<<

Angel is not impaled till the end of XF 10(Night Two) and by XF 11, pg. 4; Scott and Jean have Angel. (Night Four). Yes, I agree a stretch, but 2 days can be assumed here where the events of Wolverines battle with Sabretooth and the Day Three occur. Does it take a wounded Beast and Iceman carrying Leech (so they have to walk) and Caliban almost 2 days to rendezvous with Scott and Jean? Again, improbable, but possible. 


Quote: 
>>>
Second, there's the story in Thor #373 itself. Thor's visit to the Morlock tunnels is part of a series of events. In the late afternoon, "Sigurd" goes to visit his friend Jerry Sapristi and ends up having dinner at the Sapristi home and spending the night in their spare room. The next day, Sigurd takes the Sapristi children to Central Park where the frog Puddlegulp finds him and tells him that something terrible is happening in the tunnels. If you're right and Thor doesn't enter the tunnels until Day Four, then he must spend Night Three with the Sapristis, and that would mean that the whole takeover storyline must occur within Thor #373, between pages 12 & 13. I just can't see that happening 
<<<

Lets assume that this is exactly what happens, which will require revision of my original post which puts all events between pages 5 and 7 of T 373. Thor spends Night Three at the Sapristis and Avengers Mansion is overrun in 5 minutes by 11:31 PM. The Black Knight is captured that night and Hercules returns to the Mansion early the next morning from his night on the town and is comatose long before lunch. A 275  A 277 can be assumed to occur all in the next few hours. It is after all mostly battles. Avengers Mansion is retaken by the afternoon allowing Thor to take the Sapristi children to the park as promised during the previous evening. (Day Four) 


Quote: 
>>>
First, Hercules was badly injured and rendered comatose by the MoE during their occupation of Avengers' Mansion in Avengers #273-277. Therefore, any story from that general period which includes a healthy, conscious Hercules must take place before Avengers #273. 

Second, Hercules appears, hale and hearty, in Avengers Annual #15 and West Coast Avengers Annual #1, as well as in Power Pack #28, so those stories MUST take place before the MoE occupation. 
<<< 


Agreed, this requires revision of my original posting to move these stories before A 276 and A 277 in Thors chronology. (Ill review later) as well as Thors appearances in DD 233 and E2 12. PP 28 is theorized to be Day Three and already accounted for. 


Quote: 
>>>
Third, the second Spider-Woman was a member of Freedom Force during their Central Park battle with X-Factor in X-Factor #8-9. Therefore, any story in which she is no longer a FF member must take place after X-Factor #9. 

Fourth, Spider-Woman betrayed Freedom Force and became a hunted fugitive when she freed the Avengers from unjust captivity in Avengers Annual #15, so that story MUST take place after the Central Park battle and after (at least) the first day of the Mutant Massacre 
<<< 


Agreed. Freedom Forces next appearance in XF 10 shows no sign of Spider-Woman (Day Three). As stated before, the events of A @15 and WCA @1 are proposed to occur before the mansion takeover. Nothing in Spider-Womans chronology contradicts the ability of her leaving Freedom Force and her arrival in Manhattan PPTSS 125 after the Mansion battle and Crew capture. She battles the Crew in Denver and 3 days later (PPTSS 125, pg. 14,pn. 1) she reads about the Crews capture after the fact. Again, a stretch, but still only a matter of days to be condensed over this time period. 


I would also like reemphasize that once Thors arm is broken, theres no hiding it. It is completely immobile in T 374 and requires a splint fashioned by Cyclops during the turnover of the injured Angel. His first order of business in T375 is to have Tony Stark create the bionic arm armor. It really isnt feasible and no indications whatsoever given that Thor could neither engage in battle nor even have use of the arm until its armored. Again, I believe in the overall scheme of things, this plot point is more important than the stretched chronologies of other characters. 

Finally, to review: 
Events prior to Day One  Thor returns to Earth after many months in Asgard, feels the first effects of Helas slow acting curse (T 373 pg. 1-5). Thor reestablishes himself on Earth as Sigurd Jarlson and interrelates with Avengers (DD 233 and E2 12). 

Night One - Central Park battles are fought, first murders are committed. 

Day Two (morning) - Outside the Hellfire Club, Magneto and X-Factor recognize each other (UX #210 = XF #9). Spider-Woman and Freedom Force engage the East and West Coast Avengers (A @ 15) 

Day Two (afternoon) - X-Factor stumbles across the murders while looking for Artie, a dying Morlock alerts the X-Men. Spider-Woman has already left Freedom Force (XF 10, pg.11, pn.1), Spider-Woman on the run in Denver (IM 214). 

Night Two - Battles with various Marauders are fought, Angel's wings are impaled, the X-Men begin rescue operations; later, Wolverine meets Power Pack. 

Day Three (morning) - Power Pack and Franklin visit Avengers Mansion. Spider- Woman engages Wrecking Crew (PPTSS 125 pg. 1 13). 

Day Three - Wolverine continues his hunt. New Mutants disappear. 

Night Three - Masters of Evil occupy Avengers Mansion by 11:31 PM. Thor spends night at Sapristis( T 373 pg. 5  11). 

Day Four - Wolverine continues his hunt. Avengers (including Thor) retake Avengers' Mansion. (A 276 277). 

Day Four (afternoon) - New Mutants disappear, a frog tells Thor that something terrible is happening, Thor finds Angel. (T 373 pg. 11  21.) 

Night Four - Jean And Scott return Angel to X-Factor HQ just before Thor cleanses the tunnels with his lightning. 

Day Six  Spider-Woman arrives in Manhattan and reads about Mansion battle. 


And finally: 

THOR 

T 373 (pg. 1-5) 
DD 233 
E2 12 
WCA @1 
**T 373 (pg. 7  12) 
**A 276 
**A 277. 
**T 373 (pg. 13  23) 
T 374 
T 375 
A 276  omit 
A 277  omit 
T 375 - omit (no need to split) 
T 376
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 19 Dec 2004 05:35 am    
By DonCampbell

Hello, Charlie. 

captamr wrote: 
>>>
One more timeFirst, let me be the first to admit that my theory requires that the Mutant Massacre be spread out over days which is the weakness of my argument. However, for the sake of the overall chronology, it is the only way we can have multiple battle scenes involving Thor without a broken arm. Again, a more important plot point as this leads to whole new storyline and costume change in Thors life, which I continue to believe was the original intent by the writers and more important than stretching the timelines of X-Factors adventures. 
<<<

We seem to be reaching the point of an irresistible force opposing an immovable object...but which of us is which? My position is that the writers and editors involved made a mistake which introduced a lethal continuity error into the chronology of those storylines, and that a dose of "retroactive continuity" is what is required to straighten things out. I feel that the only workable solution is to assume that something behind-the-scenes MUST have happened which caused Thor's broken arm to be temporarily healed but which later faded away, leaving the Odinson's arm in its broken state again. Such a "continuity implant" would make a good short story for the back of an annual...if Marvel still published annuals...and if Thor wasn't dead. Ah, well, those were the good old days. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
First, one point: 
Quote: 
>>>
First off, you're only assuming that there is a chunk of elapsed time between the end of X-Factor #10 and the end of Thor #373. I don't see any evidence of this. From my point of view, it looks like the last page of X-Factor #10 leads directly into the last four pages of Thor #373. That's how I read it and that's how I think it was meant to be read. 
<<<

The Marauders must leave Angel hanging to encounter Power Pack and brag about impaling him (PP 27) and then return to see Thor in T 373. The importance here is to establish yet another period of elapsed time and the most important. 
<<<

Okay, I read the sequence of events as going like this: Marauders impale Angel's wings and are about to kill him (XF #10) when Thor comes along and drives them off (T #373). They attack a second time but are driven off again (T #374), after which Harpoon and Vertigo have had enough and go looking for easier targets (i.e. those not protected by a Thunder God). Only Blockbuster, after being taunted by Sabretooth, returns for a third attack and ends up dead (T #374). Harpoon's appearance in PP #27 occurs after he and Blockbuster have gone their separate ways. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
Now the timeline: 
Quote: 
>>>
The only way you could get the MoE takeover coming before the end of the Mutant Massacre would be if you were willing to stretch the Massacre out by at least another day, like this: 

Day Three (morning) - Power Pack and Franklin visit Avengers Mansion. 

Day Three - Wolverine continues his hunt. 

Night Three - Masters of Evil occupy Avengers Mansion by 11:31 PM. 

Day Four - Wolverine continues his hunt. Avengers (including Thor) retake Avengers' Mansion. 

Day Four (afternoon) - New Mutants disappear, a frog tells Thor that something terrible is happening, Thor rescues Angel. 

Night Four - Jean and Scott return Angel to X-Factor HQ just before Thor cleanses the tunnels with his lightning. 

At first glance, this looks doable...but it isn't. First, there's X-Factor's chronology to consider. If you read issues #10-11, writer Louise Simonson clearly seems to be under the impression that X-Factor's involvement in the massacre only lasted a matter of hours, from Day Two into Night Two and (maybe) into Day Three. It's hard enough trying to accomodate the extra day that Chris Claremont depicted in UX #212 and NM #46. Adding yet another day into the timetable would totally wreck X-Factor's apparent elapsed time. 
<<<

Angel is not impaled till the end of XF 10(Night Two) and by XF 11, pg. 4; Scott and Jean have Angel. (Night Four). Yes, I agree a stretch, but 2 days can be assumed here where the events of Wolverines battle with Sabretooth and the Day Three occur. Does it take a wounded Beast and Iceman carrying Leech (so they have to walk) and Caliban almost 2 days to rendezvous with Scott and Jean? Again, improbable, but possible. 
<<<

Yes, I agree that this is possible. It could take quite a while to navigate those miles of tunnels, especially if they had to be on the lookout for any Marauders. On the other hand, I'd think that they'd be trying to get out of the Morlock tunnels as soon as possible which would mean that they'd just find the nearest surface access and go topside. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Second, there's the story in Thor #373 itself. Thor's visit to the Morlock tunnels is part of a series of events. In the late afternoon, "Sigurd" goes to visit his friend Jerry Sapristi and ends up having dinner at the Sapristi home and spending the night in their spare room. The next day, Sigurd takes the Sapristi children to Central Park where the frog Puddlegulp finds him and tells him that something terrible is happening in the tunnels. If you're right and Thor doesn't enter the tunnels until Day Four, then he must spend Night Three with the Sapristis, and that would mean that the whole takeover storyline must occur within Thor #373, between pages 12 & 13. I just can't see that happening 
<<<

Lets assume that this is exactly what happens, which will require revision of my original post which puts all events between pages 5 and 7 of T 373. Thor spends Night Three at the Sapristis and Avengers Mansion is overrun in 5 minutes by 11:31 PM. The Black Knight is captured that night and Hercules returns to the Mansion early the next morning from his night on the town and is comatose long before lunch. A 275  A 277 can be assumed to occur all in the next few hours. It is after all mostly battles. Avengers Mansion is retaken by the afternoon allowing Thor to take the Sapristi children to the park as promised during the previous evening. (Day Four). 
<<<

Okay, I will conditionally accept this possiblity for the sake of seeing where you're going with it. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
First, Hercules was badly injured and rendered comatose by the MoE during their occupation of Avengers' Mansion in Avengers #273-277. Therefore, any story from that general period which includes a healthy, conscious Hercules must take place before Avengers #273. 

Second, Hercules appears, hale and hearty, in Avengers Annual #15 and West Coast Avengers Annual #1, as well as in Power Pack #28, so those stories MUST take place before the MoE occupation. 
<<<

Agreed, this requires revision of my original posting to move these stories before A 276 and A 277 in Thors chronology. (Ill review later) as well as Thors appearances in DD 233 and E2 12. PP 28 is theorized to be Day Three and already accounted for. 
<<<

Okay. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Third, the second Spider-Woman was a member of Freedom Force during their Central Park battle with X-Factor in X-Factor #8-9. Therefore, any story in which she is no longer a FF member must take place after X-Factor #9. 

Fourth, Spider-Woman betrayed Freedom Force and became a hunted fugitive when she freed the Avengers from unjust captivity in Avengers Annual #15, so that story MUST take place after the Central Park battle and after (at least) the first day of the Mutant Massacre. 
<<<

Agreed. Freedom Forces next appearance in XF 10 shows no sign of Spider-Woman (Day Three). As stated before, the events of A @15 and WCA @1 are proposed to occur before the mansion takeover. Nothing in Spider-Womans chronology contradicts the ability of her leaving Freedom Force and her arrival in Manhattan PPTSS 125 after the Mansion battle and Crew capture. She battles the Crew in Denver and 3 days later (PPTSS 125, pg. 14,pn. 1) she reads about the Crews capture after the fact. Again, a stretch, but still only a matter of days to be condensed over this time period. 
<<<

Okay, that's possible but the fact that Spider-Woman isn't in the ONE PANEL in XF #10 in which Freedom Force appears does not prove that she's already betrayed them. That's just an assumption on your part. For all we know, SW could just be in the bathroom or something. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
I would also like reemphasize that once Thors arm is broken, theres no hiding it. It is completely immobile in T 374 and requires a splint fashioned by Cyclops during the turnover of the injured Angel. His first order of business in T375 is to have Tony Stark create the bionic arm armor. It really isnt feasible and no indications whatsoever given that Thor could neither engage in battle nor even have use of the arm until its armored. Again, I believe in the overall scheme of things, this plot point is more important than the stretched chronologies of other characters.. 
<<<

And I would like to reemphasize that I am NOT claiming that Thor engaged in battle or even passed for uninjured in WCA @1 and A 276-277. Instead, I am suggesting that, after finding out about Hela's curse, Thor FIRST sought out a MYSTICAL remedy before going the technological route with Stark. I'd think that he'd probably go to see either Odin's Grand Vizier or Doctor Strange for help. Anyway, whomever Thor contacted was able to reverse the curse but it was so strong that the "cure" could only work for a brief time, after which the curse would reassert itself and be immune to any further magical cures. Thor engaged in battle in WCA @1 and A 276-277 while "cured" but once the curse reasserted itself he was forced to seek a longer-lasting, scientific way of dealing with his again-broken arm. 


captamr wrote: 
>>>
Finally, to review: 
Events prior to Day One  Thor returns to Earth after many months in Asgard, feels the first effects of Helas slow acting curse (T 373 pg. 1-5). Thor reestablishes himself on Earth as Sigurd Jarlson and interrelates with Avengers (DD 233 and E2 12). 

Night One - Central Park battles are fought, first murders are committed. 

Day Two (morning) - Outside the Hellfire Club, Magneto and X-Factor recognize each other (UX #210 = XF #9). Spider-Woman and Freedom Force engage the East and West Coast Avengers (A @ 15) 

Day Two (afternoon) - X-Factor stumbles across the murders while looking for Artie, a dying Morlock alerts the X-Men. Spider-Woman has already left Freedom Force (XF 10, pg.11, pn.1), Spider-Woman on the run in Denver (IM 214). 

Night Two - Battles with various Marauders are fought, Angel's wings are impaled, the X-Men begin rescue operations; later, Wolverine meets Power Pack. 

Day Three (morning) - Power Pack and Franklin visit Avengers Mansion. Spider- Woman engages Wrecking Crew (PPTSS 125 pg. 1 13). 

Day Three - Wolverine continues his hunt. New Mutants disappear. 

Night Three - Masters of Evil occupy Avengers Mansion by 11:31 PM. Thor spends night at Sapristis( T 373 pg. 5  11). 

Day Four - Wolverine continues his hunt. Avengers (including Thor) retake Avengers' Mansion. (A 276 277). 

Day Four (afternoon) - New Mutants disappear, a frog tells Thor that something terrible is happening, Thor finds Angel. (T 373 pg. 11  21.) 

Night Four - Jean And Scott return Angel to X-Factor HQ just before Thor cleanses the tunnels with his lightning. 

Day Six  Spider-Woman arrives in Manhattan and reads about Mansion battle. 
<<<

Okay, this new timeline is interesting but there are a couple of things that you've overlooked which throw monkey wrenchs into it. Accepting the possiblity that Spider-Woman and Freedom Force captured the East and West Coast Avengers (A @ 15) on Day Two (morning), there's a problem with the elapsed time involved. The events of A @15 and WCA @1 take place over the course of at least TWO days (since WCA @1 begins with them in the Rocky Mountains at night). If they were captured on Day Two and freed by Spider-Woman that afternoon (or night), then their attempt to find the Avenger who betrayed them (and their resulting battles around the world with Quicksilver and his android Zodiac) must occur on Day Three. This means that Iron Man would not be free to help Spider-Woman in Denver (in IM #214) until Day Four, and she would not turn herself in to Val Cooper until Day Five. This in turn means that the earliest that Spider-Woman could battle the Wrecking Crew would be Night Five. And since A 273 shows that the Wrecking Crew were present in New York City on the day before the night when the Masters of Evil occupied Avengers' mansion, that pushes that occupation back to 11:31 PM on Night Six. Then the Avengers (including Thor) must retake the mansion on the morning of Day Seven, pushing Thor's involvement in the Mutant Massacre back to that afternoon, and his cleansing of the Morlock tunnels would take place on Night Seven. Finally, Spider-Woman would arrive in Manhattan and read about the Mansion battle on Day Eight. 

Okay, this stretches the Mutant Massacre out to SEVEN days in length, more than twice as long as my suggested timeline, and probably three times as long as Louise and Walt Simonson had in mind. Do you still think it works? 

And finally, there is one last variable that needs to be taken into account: Sabretooth. Sabretooth definitely plays a major part in the Mutant Massacre. He appears in some of the earliest attacks, he has encounters with Power Pack and Wolverine, and he even invades the X-Mansion in UX #213. However, he also appears in two linked Spider-Man stories and through them has a second-hand link to the Avengers' Mansion occupation...and that causes a problem. 

Consider: 
Peter Parker #116 - The Foreigner sends Sabretooth after the Black Cat but Spider-Man defeats him and turns him over to the police. That same day, a boy named Alexander accidentally disintegrates his abusive father and then, feeling guilty, runs away from home. 

Peter Parker #117 - Alexander's mother recalls that her husband and son have been missing for two days (since PP #116). Also, this issue was part of a "Where's Spider-Man?" storyline which crossed over into all three Spider-titles. As I recall, Spidey and/or Peter were supposedly "missing" for about a week. 

Peter Parker #118 - Alexander encounters Spider-Man "two weeks" after he killed his dad and ends up (apparently) dead, shot and "killed" by an overzealous SHIELD agent. 

Amazing Spider-Man #283 - Spider-Man makes a mental reference to how he failed to save that kid "yesterday" and later that day battles the Absorbing Man and Titania (in between their appearances in A 273 and 275). That would be on Day Seven of the new timeline, right? 

Peter Parker #119 - Peter tells Mary Jane about the boy he had failed to save "the other day" and later battles Sabretooth soon after he escapes from the hospital where he's been held under guard since PP #116. 

You see the problem? If the Mutant Massacre and the occupation of Avengers' Mansion are jammed as closely together as you'd like, then Sabretooth must be imprisoned for the better part of two weeks (say ten days) before the occupation...which would mean that he could NOT be involved in the Mutant Massacre...except that he very clearly WAS involved. 

Now what? 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 19 Dec 2004 04:44 pm    
By Enda80

"Peter Parker #119 - Peter tells Mary Jane about the boy he had failed to save "the other day" and later battles Sabretooth soon after he escapes from the hospital where he's been held under guard since PP #116." 

Actually, Peter did not fight Sabretooth, the Black Cat did. Peter was at a party, and could not find an excuse to leave.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2004 10:03 pm    
By captamr

Hey Don, 


Well we seem to have expanded our discussion to yet another character in the Marvel Universe. I must admit that I had no idea that the mansion takeover was so popular. I can only imagine that at the time, it must have been considered a huge plot development for so many writers to try and interrelate their own plots. 

Some comments: 

You tie the Alexander subplot throughout numerous issues using standard time references in each issue (well done, I might add) to date Sabretooths stay in the hospital. You finally anchor ASM 283 with Spider-Mans own yesterday remark to show that this issue must be at least 10 days since Sabretooths entry into the hospital negating his presence in the Massacre. 

Well, theres a few more things going on in this issue that you only casually mention. The Absorbing Man and Titania are in Manhattan working with the Masters of Evil and along with a footnote on pg. 7, pn. 5 directly ties this in to the Mansion takeover. Pg. 11 has an appearance by the Wasp pondering captured Avengers and yet again a footnote referencing A 274 (pg.11 pn.3). The following battle scenes continue mentioning Absorbing Man and Titanias mission for the Masters of Evil at the airport. And finally, yet another scene showing a radio report commenting on a major disturbance at Avengers Mansion plus another A 274 footnote. This issue must happen concurrently with the day of the takeover. 

Spider-Mans own chronology lists PPTSS 119 long before ASM 283 (whether this is correct or not is for another discussion) having Peter in Europe for weeks (WOSM 19  23). Sabretooths escape from the hospital and Black Cat battle happen long before ASM 283 with plenty of time for him to escape yet again and join the Marauders. 

I point this out as an example of trying to base an entire timeline on one characters reference to yesterday and a minor subplot which has no real bearing to the major plot going on, ignoring a wealth of evidence to the contrary so as to tie events down in absolute time. I think this is a losing battle. The important points are the larger issues and plots and their RELATIVE sequences of events. It is more important to realize that when faced with obvious inconsistencies, they should be resolved in terms of larger plot threads and their timely relationships with one another and the overall intent of the issues rather than tying them down to an absolute time frame. Those of us who like to engage with calendars have an impossible task here. Still others who profess a sliding timescale for the Marvel Universe would like maybe to apply their theories here? Concurrent plots in motion together but not necessarily attached to the same moment in time? 

Some final thoughts: 

Don, you make a great case for the Spider-Woman timeline, pushing the events to 7days. This may be even too long for me to even buy. One of my biggest problems was resolving how long Beast and Iceman could remain in the tunnels (XF 10 11). It seems to be the one event linking the beginning of the Massacre to the end. Again, this seems to be irreconcilable. 

The Absorbing Mans prominence in this series of issues seems to necessitate his placement in an Avengers mansion takeover before his subsequent appearance in T 375 and thereby after Thors cleansing of the tunnels. Yes, I know weve gone over that but now he seems too important a point to overlook in the grander scheme of things. 

Youve stated Louise Simonson intent for the Massacre to follow a pretty strict time period. Did you notice that all the issues that weve pulled out in this discussion (my wife now threatens divorce if I dont return all comics back to their allotted storage areas) center on Dec. 1986? Yes, I realize publication times have nothing to do with it, but the Avengers are battling at the same time as the Massacre and Spider-Man. I only bring this up to indicate intention of the editors. 

Why does it take Sabretooth 10 days in a hospital to recover from facial scars?? 

And Don, in case you cant drag in another Marvel character to screw up the timeline before I get back on the site, let me wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas. 

Thanks
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 32

Posted: 23 Dec 2004 06:59 pm    Post subject: Roy Thomas and Gil Kane in CTB I#12
By Enda80

Conan the Barbarian I#12/2 had an odd back-up story. What made it odd was that Roy Thomas and Gil Kane appeared in a prelude and epilogue. 

http://www.twomorrows.com/alterego/media/04gilandroy.gif 

They don't quite break the fourth wall. As can be seen from the scan, the dialogue is highly stilted and affected, but otherwise I see no reason that this could not be the Earth-616 Roy Thomas and Gil Kane. 

Any thoughts? Also, does this cast doubt as to whether the rest of the story was an actual event in the history of the Hyborian Age of Earth-616, or only a story that the Earth-616 Roy Thomas and Gil Kane worked on? 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mastersofobscurity/message/12339 

As far as the apparent incongruity of them knowing about the Hyborian Age goes, there are actually some references which make it clear that, apparently, the Earth-616 universe had a Robert E. Howard who somehow tuned into "racial memories". Perhaps the general public does not believe in the Hyborian Age, and it is something that you only find in Fate Magazine or the Fortean Times. 

-In Avengers#129, when the Swordsman fought Amenhotep, he thought of 
Robert E. Howard, and even invoked Crom. 

-In Fantastic Four I#176, the Earth-616 Marvel Bullpen was shown 
working on a Red Sonja comic. 

-In Doctor Strange III#9, on page 16, Morgana Blessing refers to a 
monster alien as a cross between Conan and the monster from alien. 

-In Doctor Strange III#13, Morgana Blessing called Arkon a "Conan 
clone". 

-In an issue of Marvel Two In One (#59? with Human Torch cover featured), the Thing was shown reading the Hyborian Age comic strip, and even mentioned Crom. 

Incidentally, page 17 of Doctor Strange III#9, confirms that Earth- 
616 had an H.P. Lovecraft who worked as a fantasy author, but who 
may have tuned into the truth and disguised it as ficiton. 

As for the Earth-616 Robert E. Howard, Savage Sword of Conan#200 
features an odd story with Robert E. Howard. It was not made clear 
if this was supposed to be the Robert E. Howard of Earth-616 or 
the Robert E. Howard of a fallow Earth where the Hyborian Age, Kull, 
and Solomon Kane were not real. It seems to be the latter, but it is 
not made clear.

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 23 Dec 2004 07:46 pm    Post subject: Makio Yakaki appearance
By RLG

From the "who cares!" department: 

YAKAKI, MAKIO 
*FF 373 
FF 375 
FF 376 

- RLG 

(Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all MPCers!)

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 14 Dec 2004 06:42 pm    Post subject: Coming from Marvel in March
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The usual leaked solicitations via Millarworld. They've always been right before. It's a thoroughly underwhelming selection. 

ULTIMATE IRON MAN #1 (of 6). Speaks for itself. 

SPELLBINDERS #1 (of 6). My god, we really are scraping the bottom of the character barrel, aren't we? Actually, it seems to be a new title which just happens to reuse the name. Teen witches at school. Written by Mike Carey, so it might actually be okay. 

More Marvel Age stuff which needn't concern us. 

X-MEN: AGE OF APOCALYPSE #1-5 (of 6). Yes, it's a weekly book, and it's a five-week month. Appears to be another story set in the AoA, which turns out not to have been destroyed outright after all. EXILES also ties in, through the obvious route. 

X-MEN: AGE OF APOCALYPSE ONE-SHOT. More of the same, but by other creators. Four new AoA stories. 

ULTIMATE SECRET #1 (of 4). Resolicited because ULTIMATE NIGHTMARE is running late, and it needs to finish first. 

MARY JANE: HOMECOMING #1 (of 4). Sequel to the previous MARY JANE book, and therefore not in continuity. Rather cheekily billed as returning due to "overwhelming fan support", which evidently didn't extend as far as actually buying the thing. 

SPIDER-MAN TEAM-UP SPECIAL. Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four team up to lecture the audience about Earth Day. 

MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #12 is billed as the end of the Millar/Dodson run. 

MARVEL MILESTONE. New ongoing monthly reprint series. Hmm. This month, old stories about Iron Man, Captain America and Ant-Man. Yes, Ant-Man. 

PULSE #8 is another Secret War tie-in issue. 

WOLVERINE: SOULTAKER #1-2 (of 5). Wolverine fights ninjas. Again. 

X-MEN: THE END - BOOK TWO #1 (of 6). Oh well. 

EXCALIBUR #11 - Archangel finally shows up, a mere year after being sent there by Cyclops! 

X-FORCE: SHATTERSTAR is apparently now a four-issue mini, not three as per last month's solicits.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Dec 2004 06:53 pm    
By Dhall

You know, I really love the Age of Apocalypse, but enough is enough already, it was almost a decade ago people, time to move on! 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 04:34 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It WAS a decade ago. It's an anniversary thing. 

Yes, that's right, they're celebrating the tenth anniversary of the twentieth anniversary of GIANT-SIZE X-MEN #1... Who says they're out of ideas?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 09:14 am    
By jephyork 
Director

Quote: 
More Marvel Age stuff which needn't concern us. 

Looks like the "Marvel Age" line is no more ... they've re-titled "MA Spider-Man" and "MA FF" to "Marvel Adventures: Spider-Man" and "Marvel Adventures: the Thing", and farmed out the rest of the Marvel Age books (Spider-Girl, Mary Jane, Arana) back to the "Spider-Man" section of Previews. 

Worthy of notice, too, is that they're now marketing the "Marvel Adventures" books as "modern adaptations AND new stories". Which makes me bring up a point I'd been meaning to for some time now: 

Previously, it seemed like the rule was "Marvel Age books aren't canon". Oh sure, Jubilee and Arana are, but anything with "Marvel Age" actually in the TITLE were immediately thought of as non-canon. And rightly so: most of them were simply re-told tales from old 60s books. 

However -- not ALL of them were rehashes. From memory, Marvel Age Hulk #1-4 contained all-NEW stories, and Marvel Age Spider-Man Team-Up #5 was marketed as an all-new, non-adapted tale. 

And now "Marvel Adventures: the Thing" is being marketed as an all-new story. 

Maybe we should actually LOOK at these all-new stories, before dismissing them as non-canon simply because of their imprint. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 09:55 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Maybe we should actually LOOK at these all-new stories, before dismissing them as non-canon simply because of their imprint. 
<<<

Wait. When Adventures of the X-Men had stories that weren't adaptations of the cartoon, we didn't attempt to place them in the Project. 

I haven't bought any of the Marvel Age books, but in these retellings, presumably there are differences from the originals (otherwise, why not just reprint the originals), and *that's* why they're not canon. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 10:43 am    
By jephyork 
Director

Well, we seem to be evaluating the Marvel Age line on a series-by-series basis. "Jubilee" and "Arana" are canon; "Marvel Age Spider-Man" and "Mary Jane" are not. 

Okay -- if "Marvel Age Spider-Man Team-Up" has been, to date, adaptations of older comics -- and it suddenly comes out with a single new story, as it's doing -- then maybe we should continue the party line that, as a series, "Marvel Age Spider-Man Team-Up" remains non-canon. 

However, every single issue of "Marvel Age Hulk" was a new story -- there WERE no adaptations of old stories to make one think that the series was intended to be non-canon. Should we just ASSUME that it takes place in the same non-canon "Marvel Age Universe" as MA S-M and MA FF, simply because it shares the imprint name in its title? 

Ditto "Marvel Adventures: the Thing". It's a 3-issue miniseries, advertised as an all-new story. Should we automatically dismiss it as non-canon because it seems to follow on the heels of the late "MA FF"? Or should we, maybe, evaluate its canonicity on its own merits? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 10:51 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Thus far, all Marvel Age books with the title MARVEL AGE INSERT NAME HERO or the like have been (intentionally) out of continuity and I see no reason to think that the policy has changed. A handful of Marvel Age books *have* been in continuity, but none of them have had that MARVEL AGE TITLE format. 

It seems to me that, as things stand, the MARVEL AGE/MARVEL ADVENTURES title is signalling a non-canon book and, in the absence of anything to suggest that the policy has changed, there is no need to consider each story on an individual basis.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 12:16 pm    
By jephyork 
Director

I didn't say we should consider each individual ISSUE -- I said we should consider each TITLE on an individual basis. 

Your position seems to be, if the title reads "Marvel Age Blank" or "Marvel Adventures: Blank", it's automatically non-canon. 

Whereas my policy seems to be, let's actually read the series before we make sweeping generalizations. 

After all, "Mary Jane" doesn't follow the "Marvel Age Blank" format, and it's NOT canon ... so it's NOT simply a formula of: 

"Marvel Age Blank" = non-canon 
"any other title" = canon 

How about we try to look beyond the book's TITLE when determining canonicity? Are we, nudge wink, judging books by their covers? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 12:36 pm    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

Not automatically non-canon, but presumptively non-canon. In the same way that a book called ULTIMATE WHATEVER is presumptively not in the Marvel Universe.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 12:53 pm    
By jephyork 
Director

I see your point -- but there still seems to be a difference to me. 

"Ultimate" characters are, from even a quick reading of most issues, obviously and glaringly not the MU versions of the characters. 

The same does NOT hold true for "Marvel Age" characters. If you didn't know that these were re-tellings of old issues, you'd think that they're the MU versions of the characters. (Because they basically ARE.) 

"Marvel Age Hulk" told, and Marvel Adventures: the Thing" will be telling, stories of characters that LOOK, SOUND and ACT like the MU versions -- and the stories they're telling are NOT immediately non-canon by virtue of being retellings. 

All I'm saying is -- rather than "presumptively" dismissing them -- let's give 'em a look first, shall we? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 02:49 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I didn't say we should consider each individual ISSUE -- I said we should consider each TITLE on an individual basis. 
<<<

Well, nitpicking here, but what you actually said was STORIES, and it followed a comment about Spider-Man Team-Up #5 being an original story, not a rehash. That's where I felt the need to jump in. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Your position seems to be, if the title reads "Marvel Age Blank" or "Marvel Adventures: Blank", it's automatically non-canon. 
<<<

I agree with you that we should judge individual titles, and not make blanket statements about imprints, or lines. At the same time, I agree with Paul. From the beginning, our policy has been that a story is canon, unless (a) it can't be canon; or (b) Marvel says it isn't. 

If we reach the conclusion that Marvel intends for it to be outside of canon, we're kidding ourselves--and arguably performing a disservice--by trying to squeeze it in. 


watching: both sides, i think...no irony intended

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 03:23 pm    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

Incidentally, Marvel has put out a press release confirming that this is simply a renaming of the Marvel Age line, apparently because focus groups showed that Marvel Adventures sounded better.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 03:32 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think a few wires got crossed here. Here's the convo as I read it: 

Jeph: "Marvel Age Spider-Man Team-Up #5 was marketed as an all-new, non-adapted tale." 

Russ: "When Adventures of the X-Men had stories that weren't adaptations of the cartoon, we didn't attempt to place them in the Project." 

Jeph: "Okay -- if 'Marvel Age Spider-Man Team-Up' has been, to date, adaptations of older comics -- and it suddenly comes out with a single new story, as it's doing -- then maybe we should continue the party line that, as a series, 'Marvel Age Spider-Man Team-Up' remains non-canon. However, every single issue of 'Marvel Age Hulk' was a new story ... Ditto 'Marvel Adventures: the Thing' ... should we, maybe, evaluate [their] canonicity on [their] own merits?" 

Paul: "there is no need to consider each story on an individual basis." 

Jeph: "I didn't say we should consider each individual ISSUE -- I said we should consider each TITLE on an individual basis." 

So -- my last comment there wasn't replying to Russ, it was replying to Paul. When I *did* reply to Russ, I actually reversed my stance. My reply to Paul could have been phrased better, but what I meant was "Please note that, prior to your reply, I have actually reversed my original position." 

In ANY case... 

Quote: 
>>>
If we reach the conclusion that Marvel intends for it to be outside of canon, we're kidding ourselves--and arguably performing a disservice--by trying to squeeze it in. 
<<<

And Paul would argue that, simply by slapping "Marvel Age" in the title, Marvel INTENDS it to be non-canon. 

My reply to that would be: why wasn't "Mary Jane" called "Marvel Age Mary Jane", then? It's clearly non-canon, but it didn't receive Marvel's in-title indicator. The new series, solicited for March, isn't called "Marvel Adventures: Mary Jane: Homecoming". 

Alternately, one could argue that "Marvel Age" in the title indicates that the book will be composed solely of retold stories. However, that can't be true either, as "Marvel Age Hulk" and MASMTU #5 put the lie to it. 

My point of view is that the title "Marvel Age" -- and now "Marvel Adventures" -- is not present as an indicator of canonicity, but as a marketing tool. "This comic is bright and happy and suitable for all ages", it says. "This comic has great big word balloons." 

To ME, that's all that the phrase "Marvel Age" means. Paul wants to interpret it as "this book is non-canon", I want to interpret it as "this book is for kids". 

To find out how MARVEL interprets it -- maybe we should ask them? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 10:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Apropos of not much: 

Don't we consider "Prof. Xavier and the X-Men" #4 canon? Even though it came from a series that was otherwise explicitly non-canon, by virtue of being re-tellings? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2004 11:06 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Actually, I've been meaning to remove that. I added PXX 4 many years ago, when it first came out. It was the only issue I had, and at the time, I had no knowledge of the contents of the other issues. 

Stories aren't "non-canon," merely by virtue of being retellings. Retellings aren't listed in the chronologies, not because they're not canon, but because they're retellings. Stories that include new scenes should be listed here, as we strive to do with Classic X-Men. 

That's a retelling. Then there's a "retooling," which changes (or modernizes) some of the events that we've already seen in the original stories, without explanation. That would be Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man: Chapter One, and Marvel Age: Spider-Man, to name three. (And, yes, I know, the three examples are wildly different, but they're still three valid examples.) 

If other issues of Professor X and the X-Men show the same events as the classic stories, without change or addition, then PXX 4 would be the only story listed here. If other issues show the same events, without change but with additions, we should list PXX 4, and strive to identify the new scenes in other issues. If other issues change previous events, so as to be irreconcilable with the originals, then PXX 4 should be removed. 


watching: law and order

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Posted: 24 Dec 2004 04:32 pm    
By Kevin W. 
Director

In case anyone wants to see a copy of the March solicitations with pictures for the covers, they can do so here: 

http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2005-03/marvel.php 

Things that I've noticed: 

Rumors are that Prof. Xavier returns to the school in Astonishing Xmen #10. So does that mean we'll no longer see him in the pages of Excaliber? 

Daredevil's new storyline which starts up in March takes us back AGAIN to the famous "year" between DD#50 and DD#56. It's supposed to explore in detail what happened over the course of that "year". It may help us out in nailing down a timeline. But still, I'm irked that we're covering the same ground. Do you think 3 years from now that the New Avengers will still be caught in the middle of the prison breakout in New Avengers #1? 

The actual Previews magazine has a preview of Young Avengers #1. In it, we see Jessica Jones talking to Jameson and Kat Farrell at the Bugle, and guess what: there's a reference to Jessica still being pregnant! Hooray!  
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Dec 2004 10:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The actual Previews magazine has a preview of Young Avengers #1. In it, we see Jessica Jones talking to Jameson and Kat Farrell at the Bugle, and guess what: there's a reference to Jessica still being pregnant! Hooray! 
<<<

Yeah, I was thrilled to see that. Longest damned pregnancy in comics history...
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 35

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 10:40 pm    Post subject: Spectacular and Marvel Knights Spidey
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, we're STILL waiting for a Disassembled tie-in from the current Spectacular Spider-Man story arc (issues #15-19+). I'm beginning to think it's all just a marketing ploy, and Marvel feels that Cap's guest appearance justifies it. 

Then I've been wondering how Marvel Knights Spider-Man ties into everything. Aunt May appears in SPECSM 19. She is abducted and missing for the whole story arc so far in M/KS-M (issues #1-7), and there's a gap of three weeks between issues #6 and 7 of that title. What comes first? Bear in mind, also, that the Avengers' appearance in M/KS-M 2 places at least issues 1-6 of that title before Disassembled. One idea is to place the current story arc in SPECSM first, then the first six issues of M/KS-M, then Disassembled, then M/KS-M 7. Of course, dealing with M/KS-M opens up the whole can of worms that is the Bendis War...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Nov 2004 09:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, a couple more weeks of thought on this and I've come up with a theory about the relative placement of recent Spidey stories: 

PPTSS2 11-14 
ASM 506-508 
PULSE 1-5 (Goblin captured) 
M/KS-M 1-8+ (May missing; Goblin in prison w/no reference to Sins Past) 
ASM 509-513+ (May back; Sins Past) 
PPTSS2 15-20 (Organic web shooters) 

This doesn't necessarily include all of Spidey's appearances (ASMU2, A, SECWAR, etc.), but I just want to see if this sequence makes sense at this point.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Nov 2004 10:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Uh oh. 

I just found this little chronological gem, from Tom Brevoort, in an interview posted on Newsarama regarding the organic web-shooters: 

"These changes will be acknowledged in Amazing Spider-Man and Marvel Knights Spider-Man, but they will not be plot-points." 

Uh oh. Sounds to me like Petey's gonna have the organic shooters in upcoming issues of M/KS-M. And if *some* of the series comes after SSM2 #20, then ALL of the series has to -- thanks to Aunt May's presence in the SSM2 arc. 

We'll still have to wait and see, but it looks like the reference to mechanical web-shooters in M/KS-M #4 may have to be ruled a result of Peter's concussion-addled brain. 

Sigh. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Nov 2004 11:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

Quote: 
>>>
We'll still have to wait and see, but it looks like the reference to mechanical web-shooters in M/KS-M #4 may have to be ruled a result of Peter's concussion-addled brain.  
<<<

Oh, let's hope not. The article didn't say how long it would take for Spidey's new powers to be acknowledged in the other titles, so let's just hope Aunt May returns before we see those powers in M/KS-M. 


Signing off for today, so to all you Americans out there, get out and vote tomorrow.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Nov 2004 08:52 pm    
By Antonio Gavino

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Okay, a couple more weeks of thought on this and I've come up with a theory about the relative placement of recent Spidey stories: 

PPTSS2 11-14 
ASM 506-508 
PULSE 1-5 (Goblin captured) 
M/KS-M 1-8+ (May missing; Goblin in prison w/no reference to Sins Past) 
ASM 509-513+ (May back; Sins Past) 
PPTSS2 15-20 (Organic web shooters) 

This doesn't necessarily include all of Spidey's appearances (ASMU2, A, SECWAR, etc.), but I just want to see if this sequence makes sense at this point. 
<<<

ASM 509-513+ have to go before M/KS-M 1-8+. MJ has already gotten the "big part" by M/K S-M 5.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Nov 2004 10:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Very good point, Antonio. M.J. lands her big part in ASM 509 and references having gotten that part in M/KS-M 5, so the former must come before the latter. 

What bothers me, though, is that if "Sins Past" occurs before M/KS-M, why isn't the whole father-of-Gwen's-kids issue coming up during the encounter between Peter and Norman in M/KS-M 2? Sure, Peter is focused on the well-being of the abducted Aunt May, but come on, no undercurrent of emotion about the whole Norman-Gwen relationship? 

Ugh.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Nov 2004 12:03 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

It's unfortunate, but probably a necessary by-product of MK Spider-Man #2 being published before the Osborn bombshell was dropped. Marvel most likely decided that not spoiling the ASM story was more important than the logical path of referring to it.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 03 Nov 2004 10:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, yes, I suspect that's true, but in that case they should have just set the M/KS-M storyline before "Sins Past" rather than reference ASM 509 in M/KS-M 5, IMHO. Who knows? Maybe they'll publish a big emotional scene between Peter and Norman that allows everyone to get stuff off their chests at some point between ASM 513 and M/KS-M 1... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Nov 2004 02:32 pm    
By Jim Smith

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Uh oh. Sounds to me like Petey's gonna have the organic shooters in upcoming issues of M/KS-M. And if *some* of the series comes after SSM2 #20, then ALL of the series has to -- thanks to Aunt May's presence in the SSM2 arc. 

We'll still have to wait and see, but it looks like the reference to mechanical web-shooters in M/KS-M #4 may have to be ruled a result of Peter's concussion-addled brain. 
<<<

I'm sure by now almost everyone has noticed this, but in Marvel Knights Spidey #8 one of Peter's web-shooters is clearly shown during his battle with Venom--one of the web cartridges is even visibly shaken loose as Venom yanks on Spidey's webline. This becomes a plot point at the end of the issue, as Peter has "only one shooter working after the fight and the idiot used up all my web-fluid." 

So at this point it looks like the entire "mystery villain kidnaps Aunt May" arc in M/KS-M (which looks to be running through the entire first 12 issues, if not longer) is going to feature the mechanical web-shooters, and therefore must be set before Spectacular #17-20.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Nov 2004 10:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, that confirms our latest thoughts about the sequence of story arcs. And it acknowledges Peter's inability to save himself from the fall in M/KS-M 4 because he does not have the organic web-shooters yet.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 05:33 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Speaking of Spectacular Spiderman, the latest issue has all sorts of continuity errors, which will probably cause all of us headaches: 

Error #1: The Kingpin was in jail as seen in the pages of Daredevil. Matt Murdock is the Kingpin now! 

Error #2: Angel says to Reed Richards, "Xavier sends his regards..." Wait, Xavier is in Genosha...it's the same flaw that we had a couple issues ago, with Xavier's "face turning pale". 

Error #3: Black Cat was flirting with Angel. That's all fine and dandy, but Angel was flirting back by the end! Isn't he supposed to be deeply in love with Husk?!?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Nov 2004 05:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Error #1: The Kingpin was in jail as seen in the pages of Daredevil. Matt Murdock is the Kingpin now!  
<<<

I was hoping that you were going to tell me that Kingpin is released from jail in the latest issue of DD2. Perhaps he will be by the end of the current DD2 story arc. Then we can place this issue of Spectacular after that. 


Quote: 
>>>
Error #2: Angel says to Reed Richards, "Xavier sends his regards..." Wait, Xavier is in Genosha...it's the same flaw that we had a couple issues ago, with Xavier's "face turning pale".  
<<<

I believe someone in another thread said that Angel will be heading to Genosha sometime soon. So we might assume that this issue of Spectacular occurs after that. 


Quote: 
>>>
Error #3: Black Cat was flirting with Angel. That's all fine and dandy, but Angel was flirting back by the end! Isn't he supposed to be deeply in love with Husk?!? 
<<<

Yes, it was true love the last time we followed their relationship. Again, though, there might be more trouble in paradise in store for Warren and Paige (perhaps tied into Warren's trip to Genosha?). 


In sum, I'm not ready to say that these are errors but hope that developments in other titles will allow these references in Spectacular to make sense continuity-wise. We'll wait and see...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 06:52 pm 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Angel is meant to be in the cast of EXCALIBUR and was packed off there in X-MEN #157. Unfortunately, he hasn't shown up yet - the book is lagging badly behind the other X-books.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2004 11:15 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I was hoping that you were going to tell me that Kingpin is released from jail in the latest issue of DD2. Perhaps he will be by the end of the current DD2 story arc. Then we can place this issue of Spectacular after that. 
<<<


Not yet he hasn't been...he hasn't even shown up yet in the arc. Though we still got three more issues of this arc to go...better cross your fingers. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Nov 2004 01:47 am    
By PopularLoser

On Bendis' site, it is revealed that an upcoming story arc for the Pulse will be about the Kingpin.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

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Posted: 17 Nov 2004 05:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

Bearing in mind that PULSE was originally intended to be monthly and was then shifted to bimonthly, it may well be that the Kingpin story was supposed to have happened by this point (or to be just around the corner). If the book had run to its original schedule, PULSE would already have finished the SECRET WAR arc.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Nov 2004 08:57 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

So now Amazing Spiderman #514 is out, and it seems to have some clues as to placement, (in regards to the other Spidey books). 

According to dialogue between Spiderman and MJ, this seems to be the first time they've heard about the 5 million dollar reward that's been put out for photo's of Spidey's face. Which would place "Sins Past" as occuring right smack dab in the middle of the year long MK Spiderman arc...but that's going to be a bit of a problem: Aunt May appears in "Sins Past", yet she's missing in MK Spiderman! 

Hmmm...In MK Spiderman #5, when Peter hears about the reward offered by Jameson, he says, "What?!? Again?!!?" But I took that as reference to storylines from years ago, (hasn't there been rewards put on Spiderman's face before now?) I'm just saying that the intent seems to be to place Sins Past in the middle of MK Spiderman somewhere, but I don't know if that's possible... 

Also, we see a one panel image of Norman Osborn, confirming that he is in jail during "Sins Past", (thus, placing this after Pulse #5, or MK Spiderman #1, depending on how you look at it...) 

And both MK Spiderman and "Sins Past" must occur before Peter gets organic webs in "Changes"... 

Wow...this is getting confusing...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2004 04:45 am    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

I think the idea is that Sins Past comes before anything in MKSM. It's a completely separate reward plot, but clearly something that quickly blows over. Since MKSM acknowledges this sort of thing has happened before, I don't see why there's a need to try and shoehorn one story into the middle of another. 

Nor do I think that it's intended to go there. Quite honestly, I very much doubt that J Michael Straczynski could care less what happens in any of the other titles, and contractually, Marvel aren't allowed to edit his scripts to insert such references.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 01:28 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

So you think that JMS's reference to a 5 million dollar reward isn't an attempt by JMS to try and make some sorta contribution to continuity, (to show the titles are connected)? It seems these comics are published a little too closely together for it to just be a coincidence... 

On the other hand, Peter's line in MK SM #5, ("What? Again?) does give us a way out...but I took that line to mean "Reward for Photos of Spidey's face" from years past...is there any Spiderman experts who can recall any similar plots of rewards for Spidey's face from years past?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 03:32 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

No, because in ASM 514 (a) the money is only a rumour; (b) it's not attributed to the Daily Bugle specifically; and (c) Peter learns about it on coming round in hospital. He can't learn about it twice. 

Also, the whole hospital/reward scene is just so similar to Millar's plot that it's much more likely to be two writers having the same idea at the same time. If JMS was trying to reference Millar's plot, then first of all, he wouldn't have had Spider-Man learn about the reward twice, which would be an elementary and easily avoided continuity error. Secondly, he'd have come up with an example of his own rather than just ripping off a Mark Millar scene. I think it's just coincidence, and lazy editing. (Although bear in mind, Marvel are contractually unable to edit JMS.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 06:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I think it's just coincidence, and lazy editing. 
<<<

I agree, and when it comes to continuity issues, lazy writing and editing aren't exactly unheard of these days at Marvel.  I'm still inclined to place ASM 509-514 sometime before M/KS-M 1 and make that "what? again?" reference in M/KS-M 5 work for us. 

While we're on the topic of ASM 514, anyone want to venture a guess about the placement of the two flashbacks in this issue? 
1) Norman's taping of the message to his kids 
2) The scene with Peter and Gwen
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 02:23 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

The scene with Peter and Gwen seems to take place right before Gwen's death. Gwen says, "I'll wait here for you, Peter" and Peter is going off to do something...Gwen is also saying, "I have a lot to tell you," which seems to indicate she's ready to tell Peter about the kids. But they seperate, and while Gwen waits, the Green Goblin comes in and kidnaps her, and the rest is history. 

The other flashback, with Norman on the video tape, is pretty open ended, but I would guess that it happens shortly after Norman Osborn arrives back in America from Europe. It can probably go into any open spot in Norman's chronology shortly after the end of the Clone Saga, (which is when he returned).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 06:15 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Call me simplistic if you like, but I'm inclined to place "Sins Past" before MKSM for the simple reason that it's already finished, while the MKSM storyline has another four months to run. In the absence of any powerful reason to the contrary, that seems good enough to me. 

(Caveat - a powerful reason to the contrary may emerge in the upcoming sequel to "Sins Past" in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, depending on how much time is shown to have passed, since that story will follow the "organic webbing" arc, which in turn must follow MKSM.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 12:32 pm    
By Jim Smith

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Call me simplistic if you like, but I'm inclined to place "Sins Past" before MKSM for the simple reason that it's already finished, while the MKSM storyline has another four months to run. In the absence of any powerful reason to the contrary, that seems good enough to me. 
<<<

I agree. Also, Spidey's low-key reaction to the bounty on his secret identity in Amazing suggests that he's familiar with the concept, but not with the specific hassles he had to deal with in MKSM. 


Quote: 
>>>
(Caveat - a powerful reason to the contrary may emerge in the upcoming sequel to "Sins Past" in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, depending on how much time is shown to have passed, since that story will follow the "organic webbing" arc, which in turn must follow MKSM.) 
<<<

We'll see what the Spectacular arc does, but at the moment I think Peter has his mechanical web-shooters in "Sins Past." All I have to go on here is the seen in #514 in which he's too weak to battle Gabriel, but decides it won't take much energy to fire off a webline. To me the meaning is that the web-shooters are his only asset unaffected by the blood transfusion, because they're just devices. It's a bit of a stretch, but I theorize that Spider-Man would have difficulty using his new organic web-shooters after donating that much blood. 

Given that Sarah has disappeared, though, I have a feeling the sequel in Spectacular will take place some time after "Sins Past," leaving room for MKSM and Avengers Disasssembled.

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Posted: 24 Dec 2004 03:11 pm    
By John Simons

In the latest New Thunderbolts (#3), (which I believe takes place in the 3-month gap between A 503 and Finale?) Spidey apparently has the organic webshooters. After using webs to stifle a huge fire, he says, " I'm probably gonna need a truckload of twinkies to replenish my web-supply." 

Not sure how well or poorly that fits into the current spider-timeline, but I thought I'd point it out.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 25 Dec 2004 10:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
In the latest New Thunderbolts (#3), (which I believe takes place in the 3-month gap between A 503 and Finale?) Spidey apparently has the organic webshooters. After using webs to stifle a huge fire, he says, " I'm probably gonna need a truckload of twinkies to replenish my web-supply." 
 


It doesn't look like that will be a problem. BTW, I have NTB 1-3 after A:FINALE. In NTB 1, the Avengers are noted as being disassembled, which I interpret to mean disbanded, and that happened in A:FINALE.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Dec 2004 02:36 am    
By Jim Smith

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
In the latest New Thunderbolts (#3), (which I believe takes place in the 3-month gap between A 503 and Finale?) Spidey apparently has the organic webshooters. After using webs to stifle a huge fire, he says, " I'm probably gonna need a truckload of twinkies to replenish my web-supply." 
<<<

That fits with my speculation that the organic shooters function in accordance with Spidey's health and energy level, and that ASM 514 must feature the mechanical shooters or he wouldn't be able to shoot webbing after donating so much blood.

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Posted: 26 Dec 2004 02:11 pm    Post subject: 2004 Chronology Conundrums
By ADMINISTRATOR

Just as for every other web site on the planet, the time has come for us to look back on the Year in Chronology. 

Which storyline has presented us with the most challenges, from a chronologist's standpoint, over the past year? 

Choices are presented alphabetically.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 02:30 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

This is a tough call, but in the end, I'm going with Jessica Jones' pregnancy. Mostly because she STILL hasn't had that baby, (and probably won't for many more months to come). So the repercusions of her pregnancy are still being felt. 

The X-books New Teams was a close 2nd place, because I have to admit, the debating on which books came first got pretty hotly debated, (with all sides making good arguements, and all were deeply entrenched in their viewpoint). 

Avengers Disassembled was a mess, (still is: She-Hulk hasn't had her tie-in with Disassembled yet) but I think we're dealing with it okay... 

The FF bankruptcy seems to be solving itself as well, slowly but surely... 

The Sins Past storyline was more of a headache to Gwen Stacy fans than a true chronology nightmare... 

Or at least that's how I feel, anyway...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 03:15 am    
By Jim Smith

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
This is a tough call, but in the end, I'm going with Jessica Jones' pregnancy. Mostly because she STILL hasn't had that baby, (and probably won't for many more months to come). So the repercusions of her pregnancy are still being felt.  
<<<

I've never understood the problem with this. Given how Marvel compresses the last forty years into a decade, I wasn't necessarily expecting Jessica to give birth for years after she discovered her pregnancy in Alias. As troublesome as it is to have nine months pass in comics-time without actually aging any characters, I take the duration of Jessica's pregnancy with about as much gravity as Ben Grimm's tour of duty in World War II. 

I had to go with Avengers Disassembled, because the hassles there are right down to the basic sequence of events, so even people who aren't looking at the minutiae of temporal references (lunar phases, holidays, weather, pregnancies, sports, school sessions, etc.) had their work cut out for them. This one affected the widest number of chronology-minded readers, I think.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 10:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

I gotta go with the X-Books. Just like grade-school kids pushing in line for recess, it seemed like every one of the writers just had to be First! 

I'm STILL not 100% happy with the results. Ugh. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 01:22 pm    
By John Simons

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
I had to go with Avengers Disassembled, because the hassles there are right down to the basic sequence of events, so even people who aren't looking at the minutiae of temporal references (lunar phases, holidays, weather, pregnancies, sports, school sessions, etc.) had their work cut out for them. This one affected the widest number of chronology-minded readers, I think. 
<<<

Disassembled has the added problem that it is hard to tell what is real and what isn't. The fact that Quicksilver in the Chaos arc was aritificial, and the fact that we didn't even find this out until finale, leaves me wondering who else was or wasn't present. In the FF "tie-in" they seem uninformed about the details of the injured and deceased Avengers, could it be they weren't really present either? Then there's several characters appearing in outdated costumes-- ugh, it's a nightmare!!! 

Let's not forget how poorly the tie-ins were coordinated, to the point where Cap was in two entirely different places with two different ladies, the night before the attack on the mansion, depending on which Cap book you were reading. Since there is a long gap of time between (iirc) parts 2 and 3 of the Thor Ragnarok arc, which part of that story occurs around the time of Chaos? the early part where Cap and Shellhead come to Asgard, or the latter half where Asgard is destroyed? Have they ever explained why Spider-Man was looking for Cap at his apartment? My mind boggles!
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 04:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'm STILL not 100% happy with the results. Ugh. 
<<<

Happy enough, though...at least for now? 

I'm hoping to put that X-chronology to one side and dovetail it with an Avengers/FF/Spidey chronology that I think is workable, but again not 100% statisfactory. It looks like lot is going to depend on how S-H3 will intersect with Disassembled. I'm really hoping that it ties into A:FINALE, not "Chaos;" I need the "three months" that She-Hulk is off earth to be contemporaneous with the "three months" between A 503 and A:FINALE. Now having said it, what do you think the chances are of that?  

Then I still need to fold in the whole Secret War thing. "Ugh" is right.
_________________
Paul B.

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POLL RESULTS
Avengers Disassembled				42%
Fantastic Four's Bankruptcy			0%
Jennifer Jones' Pregnancy			14%
Sins Past					0%
X-books New Teams / School Session		42%

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Thread 37

Posted: 28 Dec 2004 09:10 am    Post subject: Black Bolt in Thor#400
By Enda80

Black Bolt had a cameo in Thor#400. It was around page 17 where Thor and Surtur get sent to the moon. I think Triton was also visible. 

(Fun Black Bolt trivia; you can see a picture on him in Max Cady's cell in 1991's Cape Fear. 

Also, does anyone know why the Inhumans wear masks? They do not have dual identities.) 

I know Thor#400 must take place before Avengers#300 (tying in with Inferno), but otherwise, I have no idea. Did the Evolutionary War take place before Inferno or after it?

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 09:14 am    
By jephyork 
Director

I'm assuming you want this to be a new thread, right? Rather than a reply to the Marvel UK thread? 

We have many delicious threads. Here I will edit for you. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 09:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Using New Mutants as a guide, Inferno takes place after Evolutionary War. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 10:36 am    
By Enda80

BLACK BOLT/BLACKANTOR BOLTAGON [INHUMAN] 

XF@ 2 
FF@ 21 
FF@ 21/2 
**T 400 
INHUMANS GRAPHIC NOVEL 
DD 272 
DD 274 

So, with Inferno taking place after Evolutionary War, and Thor#400 leading right into the Inferno x-over Avengers#300, these seems a good place to sneak this cameo in.

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 01:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier 
Director

I, too, have Black Bolt's next appearance after FF@ 21/2 as T 400.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 38

Posted: 27 Dec 2004 11:05 pm    Post subject: Super Soldiers question
By Belacaleb

I just picked up issue #7 a Marvel UK title called Super Soldiers in an antique store. It has appearances by Nick Fury, Mandarin and Shinobi Shaw, among others, but I don't se it listed here at the project. Are the UK titles considered non-canon?
_________________
Caleb Monroe - Writer 
Read Prince Charming online!

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 12:20 am    
By jephyork 
Director

Nah -- we're just Very Slowly Getting Around To Them. 

Want to contribute analyses? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 09:04 am    
By Dhall

With Marvel UK, we got as far as working on a list of which ones had US Characters in them. We haven't worked on analysis of any of the books (I've picked up all the ones with X-Men in them, but of course these should be canon, regardless of US guest stars.....) 

Dave H

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 01:42 pm    
By Belacaleb

It's the only UK isue I have, but sure, I'll be happy to contribute analysis. i'll stick it in the analysis forum in a few days.
_________________
Caleb Monroe - Writer 
Read Prince Charming online!

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Thread 39

Posted: 25 Nov 2004 07:03 pm    Post subject: Marvel Holiday Special 2004
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have a bunch of questions about Marvel Holiday Special 2004, and I hope that those who've read it may provide some answers. 

In the first story, "Jonah's Holiday Carol," we see the Avengers on page 5. Included are Hawkeye, Iron Man, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Thor, and Cap. This scene is depicted in the middle of Jameson's Dickensian dream and I'm not sure whether the Assemblers really appear or if they're just part of the dream. If the appearance is real, it poses a calendar problem, as Disassembled (featuring Hawkeye's death) was supposed to occur before the Halloween of FF 517. Yet this is a Christmas story. We could possibly assign this story to a previous Christmas, but we have one slight problem with that. In JJJ's dream, Norman Osborn appears in his Green Goblin costume, which would seem to indicate placement after the public exposure of Norman's seccret identity in PULSE 5. Of course, we could also argue that JJJ long suspected that Osborn and the Goblin were one and the same (as Ben Urich argued). 

In the second story, "An X-Men X-Mas," it's clearly the present Christmas, as Scott and Emma are headmasters at the new Xavier Institute and Kevin Ford is a student. Iceman, though, appears in human form; I thought he couldn't do that anymore. And was it me, or did this story really not have an ending? 

The third story just sneaks up on you -- no credits, no intro, no title. In this story, Franklin asks his family about the meaning of the holidays. The story ends with Franklin asking his dad if he believes in God, and Reed provides his answer. Franklin says, "I don't really know what you believe about -- you know -- God and stuff." Hold the phone! Check out Marvel Double-Shot #3. The first story in that comic consists of Franklin and Reed having a discussion about the existence of God (Reed: "Science showed me a higher power at work. Love made me believe in it."). Sheesh! Did both Franklin and Reed forget about that? And in the current holiday issue, Reed says nothing about the God he and the team met in FF 511 -- surely Reed would have something to say about his experience in "Heaven" when discussing God. Heck, no wonder nobody took credit for this story; whoever it was failed to do their homework.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 04:04 am    
By the Krayon

>>>
In the first story, "Jonah's Holiday Carol," we see the Avengers on page 5. Included are Hawkeye, Iron Man, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Thor, and Cap. This scene is depicted in the middle of Jameson's Dickensian dream and I'm not sure whether the Assemblers really appear or if they're just part of the dream. 
<<<

they for sure are actually appearing on page 5. you see Robbie in real time and then Jonah snoozing before the dream continues. also they appear on page 16, see Robbie calling Ben while Jonah is asleep, Ben reports Spideys now there too. After awaking, Robbie tells Jonah that the Avengers and Spiderman have subdued the bad guys. this is a real occurence. 

>>>
In the second story, "An X-Men X-Mas," it's clearly the present Christmas, as Scott and Emma are headmasters at the new Xavier Institute and Kevin Ford is a student. Iceman, though, appears in human form; I thought he couldn't do that anymore. And was it me, or did this story really not have an ending? 
<<<

ya, iceman isn't supposed to be able to do that anymore, and you'll also notice that Scott uses a FORCE BEAM to light the fire. it did have an ending though, it was sort of a hey, look how nice it is for Kevin. i liked it. 

>>>
Hold the phone! Check out Marvel Double-Shot #3. The first story in that comic consists of Franklin and Reed having a discussion about the existence of God (Reed: "Science showed me a higher power at work. Love made me believe in it."). Sheesh! Did both Franklin and Reed forget about that? 
<<<

yeah, but Franklin probably wanted a better more indepth answer. i don't read Fantastic Four, so i can't help out with the meeting god in heaven thing. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------the-Krayon 

www.pleaseconvinceme.com

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 04:46 am    
By david

Quote: 
>>>
Iceman, though, appears in human form; I thought he couldn't do that anymore. 
<<<

I'll chalk that up to a image inducer!

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 04:51 am    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

I assumed that the Spider-Man story was set way in the past - Peter is working as a freelance photographer for the Bugle, and that hasn't been his status quo in years. Yes, he tries to sell some photos to Jonah in MKSM, but he acknowledges that this is the first time in a while, and he's doing it because of a cash crisis. Bendis' DAREDEVIL also clarified a few issues back that Peter had stormed into an editorial meeting at the Daily Bugle to defend Matt when he was exposed, even though he had no logical basis to be there (in other words, somebody called Bendis on the continuity error and he tried to offer an explanation in a later issue). 

Jonah has at least SUSPECTED that Norman is the Green Goblin for years, as was acknowledged in PULSE. I don't see any problem with setting the story in the past - indeed, there seem to be fundamental problems with setting it in the present. 

As for the X-Men story, yes, Iceman can't change back any more. I would assume that it's simply an art error, unless he regains that power very soon. That said, the current X-Men titles are only at the early stages of the winter term, so there's plenty of time to do that plot and still leave Iceman free to appear in this story.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 11:26 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In the first story, "Jonah's Holiday Carol," we see the Avengers on page 5. Included are Hawkeye, Iron Man, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Thor, and Cap. This scene is depicted in the middle of Jameson's Dickensian dream and I'm not sure whether the Assemblers really appear or if they're just part of the dream. If the appearance is real, it poses a calendar problem, as Disassembled (featuring Hawkeye's death) was supposed to occur before the Halloween of FF 517. Yet this is a Christmas story. We could possibly assign this story to a previous Christmas, but we have one slight problem with that. In JJJ's dream, Norman Osborn appears in his Green Goblin costume, which would seem to indicate placement after the public exposure of Norman's seccret identity in PULSE 5. Of course, we could also argue that JJJ long suspected that Osborn and the Goblin were one and the same (as Ben Urich argued). 
<<<

I'm leaning towards discounting everything that occurs while Jonah is sleeping. The Ghost of Christmas Present shows him things that are discounted later in the same story, notably: the crates falling on Peter and John, unshaven, drinking by himself in a bar. Peter clearly has no idea what crates Jonah refers to later, and John shows up at the Bugle like he was supposed to, clean-shaven and in a suit. Also, we've got Robbie acting out of character, trying to send Ben closer to physical danger. And Peter wouldn't have run over to the docks to snap pictures; he would've changed into his spider-togs, swang over, mounted his automatic camera, and jumped in to help. There are too many things during that sequence that just don't hold up. 

Plus, if we discount those sequences as part of Jonah's dream, that entirely leaves open WHICH Avengers showed up to help fight whoever was on the docks (it's only noted as the Wrecking Crew after Jonah goes to sleep). 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The third story just sneaks up on you -- no credits, no intro, no title.  
<<<

Are you sure you're not missing a page? The X-Men story ends with Scott, Emma and Kevin singing Silent Night by the fire and the FF story definitely has a title and credits. Franklin spends the first page looking for HERBIE in the first place. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In this story, Franklin asks his family about the meaning of the holidays. The story ends with Franklin asking his dad if he believes in God, and Reed provides his answer. Franklin says, "I don't really know what you believe about -- you know -- God and stuff." Hold the phone! Check out Marvel Double-Shot #3. The first story in that comic consists of Franklin and Reed having a discussion about the existence of God (Reed: "Science showed me a higher power at work. Love made me believe in it."). Sheesh! Did both Franklin and Reed forget about that? And in the current holiday issue, Reed says nothing about the God he and the team met in FF 511 -- surely Reed would have something to say about his experience in "Heaven" when discussing God. Heck, no wonder nobody took credit for this story; whoever it was failed to do their homework. 
<<<

Well, the credits list the writer as Mr. To-Heck-With-The-FF's-Continuity himself: Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa! 

Okay, I can actually see how Reed's answer would NOT mention his recent trip to Heaven. It's not particularly germaine to Franklin's question. I mean, what's he supposed to say? "Sure, I believe in God. Met him last week. Nice guy, but his cigars smell awful." Any 8-year-old in his right mind would dismiss anything like that as being patronized. So I don't see that as an issue. 

But Double-Shot #3 does pose a problem, since in both issues, Franklin asks Reed directly, "Do you believe in God?" 

My initial thought was to push MDS 3 so early that Franklin may have been too young to remember Reed's answer, but Reed mentions Onslaught there, so the earliest we can possibly place it is between FF3 2 and 3. 

The only thing I can see that might work is that MDS 3 was for Franklin's personal edification, whereas MHOL 2004 was for a school report. Franklin did talk to Johnny, Sue and Ben before going to Reed, so perhaps his discussions with them made him doubt Reed's previous answer in MDS 3. Franklin does, after all, prelude the question in both MDS and MHOL with statements that indicate precisely why he's asking, so Reed could conceivably tailor his answer given the direction Franklin is coming from. 

It's not elegant, certainly, but at least the two stories don't blatantly contradict each other.

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 11:43 am    
By Enda80

"Franklin says, "I don't really know what you believe about -- you know -- God and stuff." Hold the phone! Check out Marvel Double-Shot #3. The first story in that comic consists of Franklin and Reed having a discussion about the existence of God (Reed: "Science showed me a higher power at work. Love made me believe in it."). Sheesh! Did both Franklin and Reed forget about that? ? And in the current holiday issue, Reed says nothing about the God he and the team met in FF 511 -- surely Reed would have something to say about his experience in "Heaven" when discussing God. "" 

Sidebar; Actually, even before then, Reed had already encoutered the Sphinx, who lost a battle with Moses....which indicates the presence of the Abrahamic god. 

Incidentally, in the Hyborian Age, the ancestors of the Jews and Arabs were the people of Shem. They were not monotheists, but worshipped Ishtar and other deities. (Ishtar became a demon, as seen in Hellstorm.) 
................................................................... 

First Appearance: Marvel Comics Presents 18/4 (early May, 1989) 

Powers/Abilities: time travelling, teleportation, flying and changing dresses very fast 

History: The Ghost of Christmas Past lost the address of J. Jonah Jameson and haunted instead poor Willie Lumpkin.

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 03:00 pm    
ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Sidebar; Actually, even before then, Reed had already encoutered the Sphinx, who lost a battle with Moses....which indicates the presence of the Abrahamic god. 
<<<

But not necessarily an indication of Reed's belief. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Incidentally, in the Hyborian Age, the ancestors of the Jews and Arabs were the people of Shem. They were not monotheists, but worshipped Ishtar and other deities. (Ishtar became a demon, as seen in Hellstorm.) 
<<<

Is your source a Marvel story, or solely an essay by Howard? 


watching: hustle

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 03:26 pm    
By the Krayon

>>>
I assumed that the Spider-Man story was set way in the past - Peter is working as a freelance photographer for the Bugle, and that hasn't been his status quo in years. 
<<<

the only problem i see is that the X-Men are in there current uniforms showing that Jonah is used to seeing these. of course, it could be written off as an art error. 

>>>
That said, the current X-Men titles are only at the early stages of the winter term, so there's plenty of time to do that plot and still leave Iceman free to appear in this story. 
<<<

well, iceman appeared in New X-Men 2, which occurs right after the rebuilding of the mansion. When the mansion was rebuilt, Iceman had already lost his power to change back and forth, and this holiday story appears before New X-Men 5 and after Whither comes back to the mansion in New X-Men 3, placing Iceman's change between New X-Men 2 and 5. 

edit: after looking over at the X-Men Watch i have learned that Whither comes back in New X-Men 6, which i don't have yet. so actually everything i just said isn't set in stone.  

>>>
Also, we've got Robbie acting out of character, trying to send Ben closer to physical danger. 
<<<

this happened outside of the dream sequence. 

>>>
if we discount those sequences as part of Jonah's dream, that entirely leaves open WHICH Avengers showed up to help fight whoever was on the docks 
<<<

the Avengers were shown outside the dream sequence as Thor Yellowjacket Iron Man Captain America and Hawkeye. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------the-Krayon

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 04:15 pm    
By Enda80

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Incidentally, in the Hyborian Age, the ancestors of the Jews and Arabs were the people of Shem. They were not monotheists, but worshipped Ishtar and other deities. (Ishtar became a demon, as seen in Hellstorm.) 
<<<

Is your source a Marvel story, or solely an essay by Howard? 


watching: hustle 
<<<


Howard' essay was adapted in the early issues of Savage Sword of Conan by Roy Thomas and Walt Simonson, so yes, I am relying on a canonical source. 

http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timeline597.html 
for the history of the Jews and Abrahamic deity. 

By the way, how does that watching thing work?

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 05:40 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

the Krayon wrote: 
>>>
>>>
Also, we've got Robbie acting out of character, trying to send Ben closer to physical danger. 
<<<

this happened outside of the dream sequence. 

>>>
if we discount those sequences as part of Jonah's dream, that entirely leaves open WHICH Avengers showed up to help fight whoever was on the docks 
<<<

the Avengers were shown outside the dream sequence as Thor Yellowjacket Iron Man Captain America and Hawkeye. 
<<<

I think you missed what I was saying. I'm saying all those appearances you just cited ARE the dream sequence. The only actual in-story appearances that are relevant to the MCP are those in the first three and the last five pages -- discounting the double-page spread, which seems to be out-of-sequence and not really part of the story at all. Everything on pages 4-19 is part of the dream sequence.

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 06:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, how does that watching thing work? 
<<<

It's whatever I happen to be watching, at the time. 


watching: texas v. texas a&m

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Posted: 26 Nov 2004 08:44 pm    
By jephyork 
Director

Gotta disagree with you on one point, Sean... 

Quote: 
>>>
The only actual in-story appearances that are relevant to the MCP are those in the first three and the last five pages ... Everything on pages 4-19 is part of the dream sequence. 
<<<

I read it a little differently: 

Pp.1-3 are the set-up -- canon. 
P.4 is clearly Jonah's dream. 

I took p.5 to be canon -- a real phone conversation between Ben and Robbie. Because when Robbie mentions Captain America's name -- p.6 panel 1 shows us a *sleeping* Jonah muttering Cap's name. 

The way I read it was that Jonah, in his sleep, heard Robbie say Cap's name (notice, Robbie's desk is just outside Jonah's door), and his unconscious brain incorporated Cap into his dream. Hence, Cap became the "first Christmas ghost" in p.6 panel 2. 

p.6 panel 2 through the end of p.9 are all Jonah's dream -- which means we don't need to place those X-Men appearances -- however, since Jonah is dreaming of them in their post-Reload costumes, it seems likely that they've already appeared in public in those outfits. 

(I'm curious, by the way, if the flashbacks on pp.6-8, to Jonah's childhood, could be considered representations of real events in Jonah's life. Personally, I'd say that they do -- although technically they're dreams, and not flashbacks, and might not be eligible for MCP inclusion.) 

p.10 panel 1 shows us a sleeping Jonah again, during the dream's transition from the first ghost (Cap) to the second ghost (the Thing). 

Jonah's dream from p.10 panel 1 through p.15 takes him to "the dockside battle" -- but with some noticeable differences. Ben Urich is not present here -- instead, Peter Parker is, taking pictures. Also, Thor is not present, but the Black Panther is. These differences, to me, are indications that the dockside battle sequences with Ben Urich, shown on p.5 and p.16, are *real*. 

P.16 begins with a sleeping Jonah -- an indicator to me that it occurs in reality -- and we're back to having Ben Urich at the docks, which jibes with p.5. Ben reports that Spider-Man has joined the dockside fight. 

Pp.17-21 show the end of Jonah's dream. 

Jonah awakens on p.22, and we're clearly back to reality. Robbie reports that Spider-Man aided the Avengers -- which jibes with p.16 -- and that "Urich is polishing the story at his desk", which indicates that Urich was present at the docks, which jibes with both pp.5 and 16. 

Pp.24-25 are the non-canon "Happy Holidays!" double-page spread -- placed where it was, I assume, to make the pages fall correctly. And p.26 wraps up the story with Jonah getting the bill for the party -- also clearly set in the real world. 

So, by my reading of the issue, the scenes set in the real world are: 

Pp.1-3 
P.5-p.6 panel 1 
P.10 panel 1 
p.16 
Pp.22-23 
P.25 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2004 10:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Are you sure you're not missing a page? The X-Men story ends with Scott, Emma and Kevin singing Silent Night by the fire and the FF story definitely has a title and credits. Franklin spends the first page looking for HERBIE in the first place.  
<<<

Crap! I am missing pages! #@%$! No wonder that Ghost of Christmas Present never came, and those crates falling on Peter never appeared. Now I have to trudge back to the store and trade this thing in for a complete issue. Until then, I'll hold off on the commentary. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Nov 2004 02:25 am    
By Jim Smith

I only flipped through the comic in the store, but... 

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
"Franklin says, "I don't really know what you believe about -- you know -- God and stuff." 
<<<

That seems to solve everything, if it's a direct quote. Franklin isn't asking Reed if there is a God, or if Reed believes in God. He's asking Reed what he believes about God. Huge difference. Does Reed believe God has a son? How does Reed account for God allowing evil in the world? Does Reed think people who don't believe in God will be damned to eternal torment? That's the kind of stuff Franklin is unsure of. This isn't revisiting the subject of the Marvel Double-Shot story--it's expanding upon it. 

Quote: 
>>>
Reed had already encoutered the Sphinx, who lost a battle with Moses....which indicates the presence of the Abrahamic god. 
<<<

Proof of the existence of Moses would not automatically prove the existence of Moses's god. For all Reed knows, Moses either won the fight with help from the Almighty, or with his mutant power to summon locusts.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Nov 2004 08:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien 
Director

Also, I don't see any conflict between the FF story here and the recent "trip to heaven" storyline in the FF. The answer Reed gives here is a tactfully evasive one to the effect that he believes in some sort of benevolent natural order to the universe ("something or someone"), but the clear implication is that he doesn't follow any religion in particular. 

Now, granted, he's been to heaven. But he's also been to Asgard, and you don't see him worshipping Thor. In fact, he must know from first hand experience or reliable accounts that there are tons of afterlife dimensions out there, all claiming to be endorsed by some god or other. Logically, Reed would recognise that there's SOMETHING to them, but he wouldn't necessarily accept that they're what they claim to be.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Nov 2004 10:20 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I took p.5 to be canon -- a real phone conversation between Ben and Robbie. Because when Robbie mentions Captain America's name -- p.6 panel 1 shows us a *sleeping* Jonah muttering Cap's name. 

The way I read it was that Jonah, in his sleep, heard Robbie say Cap's name (notice, Robbie's desk is just outside Jonah's door), and his unconscious brain incorporated Cap into his dream. Hence, Cap became the "first Christmas ghost" in p.6 panel 2. 
<<<

Two problems with that IMO. 1) I can't see Robbie asking anyone to get a quote from Captain America during the middle of a battle. That's something Jonah might do, but not Robbie. That suggests to me that we're still in Jonah's dream and that Jonah is superimposing his actions on others. 2) Jonah's in his office with the TV on and the door closed (as seen when Jonah wakes up). He's going to hear Scrooge and Marley over Robbie. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Jonah's dream from p.10 panel 1 through p.15 takes him to "the dockside battle" -- but with some noticeable differences. Ben Urich is not present here -- instead, Peter Parker is, taking pictures. Also, Thor is not present, but the Black Panther is. These differences, to me, are indications that the dockside battle sequences with Ben Urich, shown on p.5 and p.16, are *real*. 

P.16 begins with a sleeping Jonah -- an indicator to me that it occurs in reality -- and we're back to having Ben Urich at the docks, which jibes with p.5. Ben reports that Spider-Man has joined the dockside fight. 
<<< 

I see where you're going with this. It could work, but I think it will be extremely difficult to find that specific configuration of Avengers available on one specific day. Offhand, I'd say you'd have to place at least before the Kang War. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Jonah awakens on p.22, and we're clearly back to reality. Robbie reports that Spider-Man aided the Avengers -- which jibes with p.16 -- and that "Urich is polishing the story at his desk", which indicates that Urich was present at the docks, which jibes with both pp.5 and 16. 
<<<

Or those could be coincidences -- like the appearance of Captain America throughout the dream sequences and the supposed live events. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Pp.24-25 are the non-canon "Happy Holidays!" double-page spread -- placed where it was, I assume, to make the pages fall correctly. 
<<<

About what I figured. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So, by my reading of the issue, the scenes set in the real world are: 
<<<

This one is tricky, I think, largely because of the analogy with the original story. Dickens' intended for the events Scrooge saw with the Ghost of Christmas Present to be real, actually happening now events. That can't be the case here, as noted by a number of internal discrepencies. So we have to re-decipher what is and what is not a dream. 

I think another problem we're running into is that Takeshi here simply doesn't seem to be that good of a story-teller. I think there are some page and panel transitions that don't flow very smoothly at all, and I think there's information that Tom intended to be in the artwork that is either missing or poorly represented. 

Neither of which change what we need to do here, but I thought I should point those things out for the sake of anyone who's trying to bone up on their chronologizing skills.  


Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
That seems to solve everything, if it's a direct quote. Franklin isn't asking Reed if there is a God, or if Reed believes in God. He's asking Reed what he believes about God. Huge difference. Does Reed believe God has a son? How does Reed account for God allowing evil in the world? Does Reed think people who don't believe in God will be damned to eternal torment? That's the kind of stuff Franklin is unsure of. This isn't revisiting the subject of the Marvel Double-Shot story--it's expanding upon it. 
<<<

In MDS 3, Franklin asks, "Daddy, do you believe in God?" In MHOL 2004, he asks, "Do you believe in God, Dad?" And, in MDS 3, Reed's answer is, "Yes I do, Franklin." In MHOL 2004, Reed answers, "How could I not believe, son?" 

That's where the biggest problem is. Franklin asks Reed the EXACT SAME QUESTION on two occassions, and gets a very direct -- albiet long-winded -- answer each time. Fortunately, it's essentially the same answer, but we have to deal with which answer Reed gave first and -- to a lesser degree -- why Franklin felt the need to ask the question again.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Nov 2004 12:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, I know I said I'd wait until I got a complete copy of MHOL 2004, but I do have a few comments to offer, based on what I do have. 


Quote: 
>>>
Two problems with that IMO. 1) I can't see Robbie asking anyone to get a quote from Captain America during the middle of a battle. That's something Jonah might do, but not Robbie. That suggests to me that we're still in Jonah's dream and that Jonah is superimposing his actions on others. 2) Jonah's in his office with the TV on and the door closed (as seen when Jonah wakes up). He's going to hear Scrooge and Marley over Robbie.  
<<<

I see the same issue about Robbie telling Ben to endanger himself for a silly quotation. I see that Ben is squatting behind some crates in this scene. Are these the same crates that presumably fall on Peter, an incident which is established to be part of Jonah's dream? 

I can also see Robbie's mention of Cap as being part of Jonah's dream, which then segues into Cap as Ghost of Christmas Past. JJJ didn't have to hear the real Robbie say Cap's name in the next room if he already had Cap on his mind in his dream. 



Quote: 
>>>
I see where you're going with this. It could work, but I think it will be extremely difficult to find that specific configuration of Avengers available on one specific day. Offhand, I'd say you'd have to place at least before the Kang War.  
<<<

Difficult indeed. Hawkeye is here without the armored sleeve he was wearing in the time just prior to his "death." Iron Man's armor provides another clue, but to tell you the truth, I've lost track of his armor changes. Hank Pym is Yellowjacket here. Thor is in his classic costume. We're going to run into problems with placing this in the past. We need to consider Hawkeye's being on the lam in Thunderbolts, Thor being Lord of Asgard, and Hank's changing identities. And lining all that up with a Christmas placement is a very tall order. 

Furthermore, given that Peter is working as a Bugle freelancer here, the story should occur in the past, but then we have Jonah dreaming of the X-Men in their current costumes (apparently, that's a missing page for me). 

Argh! 


Quote: 
>>>
I think another problem we're running into is that Takeshi here simply doesn't seem to be that good of a story-teller. I think there are some page and panel transitions that don't flow very smoothly at all, and I think there's information that Tom intended to be in the artwork that is either missing or poorly represented.  
<<<

Oh yeah. And tell me, whatever happened to those puffy panel corners that told you if a scene was a dream or flashback and not part of the real, current story?  


Quote: 
>>>
In MDS 3, Franklin asks, "Daddy, do you believe in God?" In MHOL 2004, he asks, "Do you believe in God, Dad?" And, in MDS 3, Reed's answer is, "Yes I do, Franklin." In MHOL 2004, Reed answers, "How could I not believe, son?" 

That's where the biggest problem is. Franklin asks Reed the EXACT SAME QUESTION on two occassions, and gets a very direct -- albiet long-winded -- answer each time. Fortunately, it's essentially the same answer, but we have to deal with which answer Reed gave first and -- to a lesser degree -- why Franklin felt the need to ask the question again. 
<<<

My point exactly. True, the impetus behind Franklin's inquiry differs in each story, but I don't see how these stories work together at all. The exact same question; the exact same answer, just phrased differently. Say, has anything happened to Reed and Franklin to negate the memory of a previous conversation?  

And H.E.R.B.I.E.? Where the heck did he come from? The same place as Jocasta in Disassembled? Wait, wait...this whole story was a set-up by...the Scarlet Witch! 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Nov 2004 10:01 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I see the same issue about Robbie telling Ben to endanger himself for a silly quotation. I see that Ben is squatting behind some crates in this scene. Are these the same crates that presumably fall on Peter, an incident which is established to be part of Jonah's dream? 
<<<

Impossible to tell. It's a dock -- there're crates all over, and there's no background in Peter's sequence to provide context. 

Goes back to that poor storytelling.  


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Oh yeah. And tell me, whatever happened to those puffy panel corners that told you if a scene was a dream or flashback and not part of the real, current story?  
<<<

Well, I can actually see a valid reason for NOT using the technique in this particular story, but it sure as heck doesn't help us! 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
My point exactly. True, the impetus behind Franklin's inquiry differs in each story, but I don't see how these stories work together at all. The exact same question; the exact same answer, just phrased differently. Say, has anything happened to Reed and Franklin to negate the memory of a previous conversation?  
<<<

Well, the most recent opportunity I can offer is Onslaught/Heroes Reborn -- and MDS 3 clearly occurs after that. But that would mean MHOL 2004 occurs before then. But that would mean that Johnny's girlfriend Kourtney was around before he married "Alicia", which actually puts it before Secret Wars I when Johnny and "Alicia" started dating! 

GAAAHHHH!!! 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And H.E.R.B.I.E.? Whee the heck did he come from? The same place as Jocasta in Disassembled?  
<<<

Fortunately, HERBIE has been rebuilt and reprogrammed multiple times, including by people outside the FF. That's the LEAST of our problems!

Last edited by SKleefeld on 27 Nov 2004 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 27 Nov 2004 10:02 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Both "Reed believes in God" stories also conflict with Reed's role in the Infinity Crusade, where he was firmly in with the "unbelievers" camp. 

-Sean

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Posted: 27 Nov 2004 11:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, it's quite possible that Reed became a believer after Infinity Crusade and put all his science into a new perspective.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 05:01 am    
By rhod

I wonder if some of the correspondents on this board have ever met any children? Some kids ask questions all the time, particularly about topics with fuzzily-defined answers like religion. (I would also imagine the son of Reed Richards would be more inclined to ask these questions than most). 

I'm not sure how muce time we would infer has passed between the 2 askings, I assume a couple of years, Marvel Time. There are a number of reasons why Franklin might ask exactly the same question eg to reassure himself of his fathers beliefs, to incorporate new knowledge that he has gained in the intervening period, or maybe he just forgot the first answer. 

As to why Reed's answer isn't quite the same, picture yourself being asked your opinion on something twice years apart. Is anyone ever likely to give the exact same word-for-word answer?

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 09:55 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I wonder if some of the correspondents on this board have ever met any children?  
<<<

Um...I think so...last time I checked, my daughter was one. Now what was her name...? 

_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 10:40 am    
By jephyork
Director

I don't have time to rebut right now, unfortunately, but -- without meaning any offense, I find it hard to believe that both Sean and Paul are so grossly misreading the Jonah story. I've read it a few times, trying to see it from your point of view, and -- it just doesn't work. 

Robbie acting out of character? Possibly, although it's also possible that he didn't *know* the mortal danger Ben Urich was in. (It could also just be bad writing -- when did "slightly out of character" become a canonicity-buster?) 

It's clear to me that, out of character or not, the ONLY point of Robbie's line was so writer Tom DeFalco could find a way to *mention Cap's name out loud* -- so he could have a sleeping Jonah could overhear. 

Jonah couldn't hear Robbie over the TV? We don't know that. The volume could have been down low, and/or a quiet/silent part of the movie could have been playing that second. "A Christmas Carol" isn't exactly all expolsions and shouting. 

Look at the panel borders on p.6. The "sleeping Jonah" panel (panel 1) goes off the page -- the dream panels don't. It looks to me like an artistic way or implying a transition. 

After Jonah awakens, Robbie *confirms* that Spider-Man and Ben Urich were present at the docks. This IS what we see on pages 5 and 16. Why is it such a hard logical leap to then assume that pages 5 and 16 were real? 

I wish I had more time right now, but -- I'm trying to be open-minded, but I just don't see more than one right way to interpret this story. 

Are people objecting just because they don't like the chronological looks of that particular group of Avengers? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 04:06 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I don't have time to rebut right now, unfortunately, but -- without meaning any offense, I find it hard to believe that both Sean and Paul are so grossly misreading the Jonah story. I've read it a few times, trying to see it from your point of view, and -- it just doesn't work. 
<<<

Obviously, I wouldn't call it a gross mis-reading. I do think that the way the story is presented allows for multiple interpretations, though, and I'm trying to help define what works best and is most logical for the purposes of the MCP. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Robbie acting out of character? Possibly, although it's also possible that he didn't *know* the mortal danger Ben Urich was in. 
<<<

Well, Ben does claim beforehand that "we could be facing another end-of-thew-world scenario." That would suggest to me that things aren't pretty and Robbie knows that all too well. 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
(It could also just be bad writing -- when did "slightly out of character" become a canonicity-buster?) 
<<<

Well, bad writing certainly doesn't necessarily dictate canonocity, but I think we can take advantage of bad writing when it works to our advantage. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It's clear to me that, out of character or not, the ONLY point of Robbie's line was so writer Tom DeFalco could find a way to *mention Cap's name out loud* -- so he could have a sleeping Jonah could overhear. 
<<<

No, the purpose was to bridge the two sequences. It's a writer's gimmick to make the story flow better. The same way Ben (not Robbie) says "Spider-Man has joined the Avengers" and suddenly the web-slinger shows up as the next spirit. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Jonah couldn't hear Robbie over the TV? We don't know that. The volume could have been down low, and/or a quiet/silent part of the movie could have been playing that second. "A Christmas Carol" isn't exactly all expolsions and shouting. 
<<<

True, we don't know whether Jonah could or could not hear Robbie, but Jonah's door was closed and the TV was playing. Robbie'd have to be yelling pretty loudly for Jonah to hear him even during the quiet portions of the TV show. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Look at the panel borders on p.6. The "sleeping Jonah" panel (panel 1) goes off the page -- the dream panels don't. It looks to me like an artistic way or implying a transition. 
<<<

Read the whole story. There are plenty of panels throughout that bleed off the page, some of which are definitely dream sequences (Norman's visit, the FF battling Doom...) and some are definitely real events (the initial splash page, the panel after Jonah wakes up...). I don't think we can use that as a means of discerning one from the other. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
After Jonah awakens, Robbie *confirms* that Spider-Man and Ben Urich were present at the docks. This IS what we see on pages 5 and 16. Why is it such a hard logical leap to then assume that pages 5 and 16 were real? 
<<<

Because Robbie is acting out of character and we have a collection of Avengers that has never existed. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I wish I had more time right now, but -- I'm trying to be open-minded, but I just don't see more than one right way to interpret this story. 
<<< 

There most likely was one way DeFalco had in mind when he wrote it, but the poor storytelling allows for a great degree of interpretation. If you'd like to write him and ask, please do -- although I dare say that the answer you'll get won't jive with the internal continuity of the story. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Are people objecting just because they don't like the chronological looks of that particular group of Avengers? 
<<<

It's not that I don't like the chronological looks of those Avengers, I just don't think it's possible to rectify all the disparate things we have seemingly going on in this story. I think it only works with established continuity if we discard most of the story as a dream sequence.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 05:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just another observation about JJJ's dream which I'll mention, even though it's obvious. In the scene in which Cap shows him his childhood, JJJ is a young boy reading comics in his bedroom, the walls of which are plastered with posters of WWII-era super-heroes. This is another attempt to contemporize current MU stories so that we can imagine those stories as occurring in 2004 (like Tony Stark becoming Iron Man after the Vietnam War ended). When we were introduced to JJJ in 1963, he was middle-aged, and he had a son old enough to be an astronaut. From that vantage point, he couldn't have been a young boy in the '40s. I suppose those of us who embrace the sliding timeline can take the temporal reference in JJJ's "Christmas past" scene as canonical (for a while anyway), while others of us can imagine this dream scene as: a) not acurately relecting the specifics of JJJ's real childhood (thus non-canonical as a true flashback scene) -- it is a dream, after all; or b) an "art error" of sorts that should have represented references to heroes who captured the public's imagination in WWI, not WWII. 

The next "Christmas past" scene shows JJJ and his first wife celebrating a Christmas with young son John. The only reference here that indicates what year this may be is a toy jet plane that young John plays with -- not exactly consistent with a person who would be an adult in 1963. Again, the "non-sliders" among us might imagine this toy plane as having propellers. 

Anyway, the question remains as to whether or not this whole dream sequence represents true flashbacks. As dream elements, can we trust them to be true occurrences or are they imagined scenes based loosely on real-life events?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 09:07 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I just don't think it's possible to rectify all the disparate things we have seemingly going on in this story. I think it only works with established continuity if we discard most of the story as a dream sequence. 
<<<

For the record -- exactly what's wrong here, chronologically? 

"Peter not supposed to be a freelancer" is the worst offender I see -- but didn't someone on this thread just point out that Peter sold Jonah a few snaps recently in Marvel Knights Spidey? Maybe this story takes place right after M/KS-M wraps -- at a time when Peter could legitimately claim to again be a freelancer for Jonah. (And his presence *at* the Bugle doesn't have to indicate that he *works* there at the moment -- maybe he's only there to attend the office party.) 


Quote: 
>>>
I think we can take advantage of bad writing when it works to our advantage. 
<<<

What's the "advantage" of ignoring pp.5 and 16? What's the problem with *keeping* them? 


Quote: 
>>>
we have a collection of Avengers that has never existed. 
<<<

What? These particular Avengers have never worked together? They look fine to me. Discounting "Hawkeye's arm-sleeve" -- why couldn't this story fit just prior to Disassembled, between Thor v2 #79 and 80? 

(The first person who says "because those issues don't take place in December" gets walloped. I'm talking MCP placement here, not The Calendar.) 

Oh, and Paul, regarding Jonah's childhood -- doesn't "Marvels" show him to be a young adult in 1939? Granted, this is hardly possible now, and I'm not sure what my point is, but it'll be tough to reconcile a 6-year-old Jonah reading about the heroes of the '40s, and a 20-year-old Jonah in the late '30s... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 11:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Oh, and Paul, regarding Jonah's childhood -- doesn't "Marvels" show him to be a young adult in 1939? Granted, this is hardly possible now, and I'm not sure what my point is, but it'll be tough to reconcile a 6-year-old Jonah reading about the heroes of the '40s, and a 20-year-old Jonah in the late '30s...  
<<<

I guess the point is that it is indeed difficult to reconcile scenes that rely on temporal references based on real-world events when the sliding timeline practice comes into play. We can either accept JJJ's dream scenes as accurate depictions of the past (flashbacks) and write off inconsistent temporal references (either here or somewhere else), or we can decide that the dream scenes are not reliable as accurate depictions of the past and not include them in JJJ's chronology. 

As for your other questions, I can't provide a thorough answer until I get my mitts on a complete issue, probably not until Wednesday. I'm at a disadvantage without all the clues that this issue may provide. Did someone say the Wrecking Crew is involved?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 11:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
We can either accept JJJ's dream scenes as accurate depictions of the past (flashbacks) and write off inconsistent temporal references (either here or somewhere else), or we can decide that the dream scenes are not reliable as accurate depictions of the past and not include them in JJJ's chronology. 
<<<

With rare exceptions--such as Fontanelle's dreamscapes in Gambit, we've never included dreams in chronologies, because they're not reliable as accurate depictions of the past, any more than our own dreams are. 

Or at least, mine. 


watching: flying pyramids soaring stones

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2004 09:07 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
For the record -- exactly what's wrong here, chronologically? 

"Peter not supposed to be a freelancer" is the worst offender I see -- but didn't someone on this thread just point out that Peter sold Jonah a few snaps recently in Marvel Knights Spidey? Maybe this story takes place right after M/KS-M wraps -- at a time when Peter could legitimately claim to again be a freelancer for Jonah. (And his presence *at* the Bugle doesn't have to indicate that he *works* there at the moment -- maybe he's only there to attend the office party.) 
<<<

There's no one single thing that's wrong per se; it's the culmination of everything. 

When was the last time Thor was an Avenger -- or even was available to work with the Avengers? A3 56, if memory serves. But that was Thor, Lord of Asgard. So we have to go back to A3 55 as the latest possible time for this. Except Hawkeye's tied up with the Thunderbolts in that time period. We keep working our way backward to a point where Hawkeye's available, and we no longer have Yellowjacket, since he spent his time prior to A3 44 as Goliath. So when's the next latest time Yellowjacket is available? Avengers #230 is his last appearance, but that was after several issues of Pym being incarcerated. And what's going on in Tony Stark's life around that time? He's drunk and in the gutter with James Rhodes in the Iron Man armor. 

And that's without even addressing the specifics of Iron Man's armor or Hawkeye's costume! 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
What's the "advantage" of ignoring pp.5 and 16? What's the problem with *keeping* them? 
<<<

The problem with keeping them is that they don't work chronologically. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
What? These particular Avengers have never worked together? They look fine to me. Discounting "Hawkeye's arm-sleeve" -- why couldn't this story fit just prior to Disassembled, between Thor v2 #79 and 80? 
<<<

See above. 

It's not that they've never worked together; it's that they've never been available in the configuration depicted. We've argued before about the relative importance of Iron Man's armor and Hank Pym's super-hero identity relative to other characters, and concluded that these two characters define themselves, in large measure, by how they're dressed, making it a more critical feature than whether or not Hawkeye's sporting sleeves. By the time we can get Thor, Hawkeye and Yellowjacket (not Goliath, not Dr. Pym, not Ant-Man...) available, we're so early that Iron Man becomes a significant problem. 

I haven't addressed potential issues with Man-Wolf that would then start to crop up when we get that early. Or whether or not Wasp would tolerate working with Yellowjacket. We go much earlier and Yellowjacket hasn't even been created yet!

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 09:25 am    
By jephyork
Director

Wait, wait, I'm lost. 

Again -- WHY exactly couldn't Thor be present here between #79 and #80 of his own title? 

You say he wasn't "a member of the Avengers" at that point. But he showed up recently to aid the Avengers in Amazing Spider-Man v2 #57-58 and #500 -- even though he wasn't a "member" then either. 

We placed those ASM appearances in the break between Thor #79-80 -- and we now have a precedent for Thor popping up to aid the Avengers during that block of time. Why couldn't his appearance in the Holiday Special be another example of that? 


By the way, in a strange coincidence, Tom DeFalco will be attending the Boston Comic Spectacular this coming weekend. I'll be sure to corner him with a copy of the Holiday Special and ask if pp.5 and 16 were meant to be real. I'll ask him about Robbie's out-of-character line and Peter's status as a freelancer, too, and whether he intended this issue to be set in the present or the past. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 02:33 pm    
By John Simons

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Again -- WHY exactly couldn't Thor be present here between #79 and #80 of his own title? 

You say he wasn't "a member of the Avengers" at that point. But he showed up recently to aid the Avengers in Amazing Spider-Man v2 #57-58 and #500 -- even though he wasn't a "member" then either. 
<<<

Is this the break between the end of Jurgens and the Disassembled arc? If so, I agree, Thor no longer has the Odinpower and is wearing his Kirby duds again. Aside from the ASM issues you mention he and Hawkeye appear with the rest of the Avengers in X-Statix. This might be the place for that Target comic, too. 

I haven't seen the Holiday special, but based on what I've read here that might be the best place as far as Thor and Hawkeye are concerned.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 05:11 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I completely forgot about Thor's appearance in ASM. I was thinking he was totally tied up in his own book from the Kang War at least through Disassembled. 

That placement might just work. We've got Iron Man's appearance there just before A3 72, which means that Hank would be running around as Yellowjacket. Hawkeye's about to team back up with the Avengers anyway (sleeveless to boot). I think that's even what Iron Man's armor looks like during that period! 

Hmm. I'm not seeing any reasons offhand why it can't go there.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 10:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yay! 

I'll still run it by DeFalco this weekend, if everyone wants. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Nov 2004 11:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'll still run it by DeFalco this weekend, if everyone wants. 
<<<

Please do. From the standpoint of the characters involved, placement around ASM 500 makes sense, and I already have Hawkeye back in the Avengers at that point in the new calendar. Just one thing, though: let's make that whole Christmas party a celebration of...Memorial Day!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 06:17 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Is this the break between the end of Jurgens and the Disassembled arc?  
<<<

Yes, there's an indeterminate gap. Some time has passed, the Asgardians have all gone home, Thor has lost the Odinpower, and he's back in his old costume. We don't know how long has passed, but since around a year of THOR stories were just set in an alternate future, there's plenty of time for Mainstream Thor to go off and do guest appearances during that period.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Nov 2004 07:57 am    
By Paul Bourcier
director

I have a good six months in that gap between Thor's appearances in T2 79 and 80, just at the wrong time of the year. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 12:45 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I could've swore there was a really clear reference to only around 1 month having passed between T2 79 and 80...it was in the opening pages of book 80, I think...I'll have to go back and reread...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 02:01 am    
By John Simons

Actually the one month reference I think you are referring to is indicating that the main action of the book takes place one month after Eitri dies and Loki takes posession of the mold which created Mjolnir.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 01 Dec 2004 07:43 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes. The one-month gap appears between pages 6 and 7 of T2 80, not between T2 79 and 80.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Dec 2004 11:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, so I spoke to Tom DeFalco this weekend. He's a nice guy. When I found him, squirreled away in the back room of the show, he was autographing a stack -- and I mean a STACK -- of his comics, brought in an enormous duffel bag by one of those stereotypical comic fans. You know the type. The fan was asking him these terribly nerdy, detailed questions, and Tom was politely banging out answers as he signed book after book -- and I cringed to think that soon, I'd be pestering him with similar questions. Ugh -- yes, I work on the MCP of all things, but I *hate* coming off like a Big Comic Nerd in person. 

So I tried to have a sense of humor about it. I began by apologizing in advance, and trying to explain *why* I was asking -- but Tom was gracious, and fielded all my goofball questions. 

First off, he hadn't seen the printed version of the story (or any of the art, actually), and flipped through the copy I brought for a minute or two. When he was done, he commented that, if he knew what the artist's style was like beforehand, he would have put in a lot more talking and a lot less action. 

When he got to the two-page "Happy Holidays!" spread on pp. 22-23, he did a mild double-take, and flipped back and forth a bit. I think he was looking for the final page of his story -- when he found it on p.24, he seemed satisfied. I'm not sure the spread was in the script. 

I briefly described the two different types of dockside scenes -- the scenes with Peter in danger that were definitely a dream, and the scenes with Ben Urich that were sort of ambiguous. He told me that the Ben Urich scenes were definitely intended to be real. When I mentioned Sean's complaint that Robbie was acting out of character in asking Ben to get closer to the danger, Tom sort of chuckled and said "hey, it's a comic book." 

Also, according to Tom, the scenes in Jonah's dream from his childhood were "probably" real. He mentioned that most people don't dream about completely fictional past events -- however, he did say that people can dream of their memories the way they WANT to remember them. So these may be *indicators* of factual events in Jonah's past -- but they may not be actual canon flashbacks. 

I asked if this was taking place in the current MU, or in the past -- pointing out that Peter wasn't a freelance photographer anymore -- and Tom told me that editorial gave him an edict to write more of a "general" Peter Parker than one from a specific time. He then suggested that, although Peter didn't work for Jonah anymore, he could have dropped by for the party, and been offered the chance to make a couple of bucks on the dickside assignment. That was off the top of his head, but it's as close as he came to saying "yeah, this could take place in the present day". 

I thanked him for putting up with me, and he thanked me in return for my interest. Then he shamed me for not reading Spider-Girl, and all was well.  

If any of you ever get the chance to meet Tom DeFalco, I recommend it. Regardless of your feelings on his work, he's enthusiastic when he talks to the fans and it's clear that he loves working on comics. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Dec 2004 11:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have a new proposal for the placement of the first story in M/HOL'04 1 (the Spider-Man story featuring the Avengers). 

I think we'd all want to preserve the Christmas setting of this story and not declare it topical. However, given the chronology of recent comics, it appears obvious that the current Christmas (Year 22) isn't going to work, as Hawkeye's death is going to have to occur months before the Christmas of the other stories in M/HOL'04. (See the X-chronology post.) 

So, how about the previous Christmas (Year 21)? This would, by my estimate, be the same Christmas as that shown in IM3 62-63. Those issues of IM3 occur before IM3 64, which is part of the crossover with T2 58 and A3 63. Hawkeye could be with the Avengers at this time since: (a) it's after TB 75; and (b) Hawkeye already has been shown to hang with his teammates during this general period -- MARVEL DOUBLE-SHOT 2/2, for example. Cap, YJ, and Wasp all seem to work here, and Iron Man is shown in a variation of the armor he had during this period (art error?). 

If this works, then Thor (in his classic costume) would have to appear in M/HOL'04 1 before T2 46, the beginning of the storyline that leads to Asgard-over-Manhattan. The only problem with this scenario, as I see it, is that it may force that whole Lord Thor storyline into a tighter calendar period that may not be long enough for "Asgardianism" to spread. And that "hundred day" gap between T2 51 and 53 may need to shrink. I'll have to do more investigation on this. 

But besides that, would anyone have a problem with placing M/HOL'04 1 around IM3 62-63?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 10:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Nah, there's just no way I can get Thor to appear in M/HOL'04 1 before his final appearance in the classic costume in T2 43. IMHO, if the Christmas in that J. Jonah Jameson story is to be valid (not topical), some reference is going to have to give. 

If it's this Christmas (Year 22)...Hawkeye and Thor are back from the dead between A:FINALE and NA 1. 

If it's last Christmas (Year 21)...Thor's costume would be wrong -- chalk it up to artistic error or come up with an excuse for Lord Thor to don his traditional costume. (And while I can't get this Christmas to occur before T2 43, I can at least place it just before the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline starts in T2 46.) 

If it's two Christmases ago (Year 20)...we'd need to explain why Hawkeye is not locked up and why Iron Man has that armor. 

Of course, this may be bothersome only to those who are calendar-minded. There's a lot more latitude with character chronology here if you're willing to stick a Christmas here or there or ignore the holiday references altogether. There's always that "Ghost of Memorial Day Past" explanation for M/HOL'04 1 to occur after between the Reigning and Disassembled. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 11:03 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
If it's two Christmases ago (Year 20)...we'd need to explain why Hawkeye is not locked up and why Iron Man has that armor. 
<<<

Haven't we made allowances for Hawkeye to get out of jail before, to appear in Avengers issues? Maybe we could coincide this appearance around the time that Hawkeye was out on jail for another Avengers issue...or maybe just rationalize that they let him out again, for whatever reason, (it's not like you could really keep Hawkeye locked up, he's done too much good as an Avenger). 

Hmmm...well, what about 3 Christmases ago? 


Quote: 
>>>
There's always that "Ghost of Memorial Day Past" explanation for M/HOL'04 1 to occur after between the Reigning and Disassembled. 
<<<

I'm kinda partial to this one myself. Look, Marvel puts out some sorta Christmas issue every year, (if not in a Special like this, then in the pages of one of the character's own titles). We know that time passes more slowly in the Marvel universe. Every once in a while, us chronologers who DO like the calender system are going to have to throw our hands up in the air and declare a holiday topical.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 08:51 am    
By jephyork
Director

You all know my vote on this one.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 01:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
I'm kinda partial to this one myself. Look, Marvel puts out some sorta Christmas issue every year, (if not in a Special like this, then in the pages of one of the character's own titles). We know that time passes more slowly in the Marvel universe. Every once in a while, us chronologers who DO like the calender system are going to have to throw our hands up in the air and declare a holiday topical. 


True, but Christmas is written ALL OVER that story. Seems a shame to discard all those references to justify Thor's classic costume and shaven face. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 01:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Remember, though -- it's only the *calendar* that *has* to disregard those references. In pure MCP terms, things like that don't matter. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 10:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Oh, I remember that -- actually never lost sight of it. We all know that temporal references are of small consequence to a relative chronology, but take on added importance to an absolute chronology, or calendar. 

Now, Jeph...time to earn your No-Prize. Think up a good reason for the Daily Bugle to have a "Christmas" party in late May or early June, for John Jameson to visit for the "holiday," and for a TV station to run such "holiday tripe" as "A Christmas Carol" and I'll be pleased as spiked egg nog. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 11:20 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It's the third Christmas of the year. There are four Christmases every year, in the Marvel Universe. 


watching: ohio state vs. oklahoma state

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 11:47 pm    
By Dhall

And a Presidential election every other year...

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:21 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Hmmm....I don't have this issue, but reading over this thread, I got to thinking: In other threads, some of you guys have pointed out how publication order is a factor that should be taken into consideration when discussing placement. 

Well, this holiday issue has Hawkeye and Thor in it, and both are supposedly dead now, (and will stay that way until Marvel revives them). But this issue was published AFTER their deaths in the pages of Thor and Avengers. I would say this provides justification for placing this a few years ago, around the time of another Christmas issue, which would have this issue make sense. 

So again, what's wrong with "3 years ago" on a calender? How about "4 years ago"? Find another Marvel "Christmas" issue where this could make sense, and plug it in there. 

Of course, if that fails, and all else fails, then Christmas becomes "Whatever" day... 


Quote: 
>>>
Think up a good reason for the Daily Bugle to have a "Christmas" party in late May or early June, for John Jameson to visit for the "holiday," and for a TV station to run such "holiday tripe" as "A Christmas Carol" and I'll be pleased as spiked egg nog.  
<<<

Maybe because of some random supervillian attack on NYC, Christmas was ruined for the Bugle last year, so all Christmas celebrations were ruined. Thus, the Bugle staff rescheduled "Christmas" for May or June... 

There's all sorts of ways we could work this...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 09:11 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Now, Jeph...time to earn your No-Prize. Think up a good reason for the Daily Bugle to have a "Christmas" party in late May or early June 
<<<

Here's my No-Prize attempt, Paul: it's NOT late May or early June. It's the Marvel Universe, where all calendar references are inherently questionable and absolute calendar tracking of the comics in question doesn't work. In THIS comic, set just before "Disassembled", it's Christmas. In FF #517, set just AFTER "Disassembled", it's Halloween. And this is perfectly utterly normal to all the characters involved. 

Do I win a No-Prize? 


Quote: 
>>>
some of you guys have pointed out how publication order is a factor that should be taken into consideration when discussing placement. Well, this holiday issue has Hawkeye and Thor in it, and both are supposedly dead now. But this issue was published AFTER their deaths in the pages of Thor and Avengers. I would say this provides justification for placing this a few years ago 
<<<

See, *I'd* say that the publication order -- being published AFTER events that it fits BEFORE -- means that we should place it *as recently as possible*. Before Disassembled, yes, but JUST before Disassembled. The very last thing Thor and Hawkeye appeared in before Disassembled. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 09:52 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
See, *I'd* say that the publication order -- being published AFTER events that it fits BEFORE -- means that we should place it *as recently as possible*. Before Disassembled, yes, but JUST before Disassembled. The very last thing Thor and Hawkeye appeared in before Disassembled. 
<<<

I'd agree with you to some extent, but I'd like to tweak the wording a little. Rather than "as recently as possible," I'd prefer "as recently as makes sense." You might see it as a distinction without meaning. 


watching: robots tending a giant computer in the american southwest

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 10:02 am
By jephyork
Director

Well, yes -- that's essentially what I meant, and thanks for clarifying. There's no point in insisting, for example, that it be the *most recent thing* Thor appeared in before Thor #80, if that placement doesn't work for Spidey. 

Of course, the issue with "as recently as makes sense" is that some could argue that it doesn't "make sense" to have a Christmas issue slotted soon before a Halloween issue -- so I'd like to amend your amendment of my phrasing, to read "as recently as makes sense for the character's chronologies". 

Feel free to amend my amendment to your amendment.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 12:55 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So again, what's wrong with "3 years ago" on a calender? How about "4 years ago"? 
<<<

Doesn't work. You'd have to explain not only Iron Man's armor but also Yellowjacket's presence; three years ago takes us before the Kang War, during which Hank Pym resumed his YJ identity. Four years ago, the Avengers were in the Franklinverse. 

Let's face it -- the editors just weren't consistent with temporal references (  ), and despite my best efforts at making it work, it's not going to. The consensus among the "relativists" (as opposed to the lunatic fringe "absolutists"  ) among us is that temporal references, no matter how prominent, must be set aside for the sake of character continuity (including costuming and facial hair) and general guidelines about publication order. If only Thor were shown with beard and Lord Thor raiment, then I might convince folks that the most recent placement that makes sense for M/HOL'04 1 is around IM3 62-63. Oh well... 

I gave it my best shot, but expect to find the Christmas story around Memorial Day of Year 22. Can't win 'em all, but by and large, the calendar isn't doing too badly. The other Christmas stories in M/HOL'04 1 (and probably PUNISHER: RED XMAS) work well, as do the Halloween of FF 517 and all those beginning of semester references in the X-books (despite the plot inconsistencies). 

And yes, the No-Prize is still up for grabs, smart alecs. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:24 pm    
By John Simons

In an as-yet-unseen story, the FF traveled back in time and witnessed the birth of Christ. "December 25" was a nice guess, but Reed determines that the actual birth occured in mid-May. Once the Pope heard about this he decreed that Christmas would be celebrated in May from now on. 

Howzat? 
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

But then, the Pope would have to change his mind in time for those other Christmas stories to actually occur in December. Oh, that whimsical John Paul...
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 40

Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:23 pm    Post subject: Amazing Spider-Man #515
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just a note to the group that there's a lot of work for us chronologists in ASM 515. 

First off, the issue contains a number of flashbacks to Peter Parker's life before Amazing Fantasy #15, a time in which a new student named Charlie Weiderman became the object of his classmates' ridicule and took the pressure off Peter, at least for a while. I'll leave it to the Spidey experts to figure out exact placement of these flashbacks in Spidey's pre-debut chronology. 

As far as the contemporary story goes, the first segment (the first 15 pages, counting Peter's recollection of flashbacks) occurs "two days" after ASM 514. In this segment, Weiderman tells Peter, "I'll send you all the data I've got so far, care of your aunt, since I've still got her address." This is probably a reference to May's Forest Hills address, where Peter lived as a high school student. Peter doesn't correct Weiderman to say that May has moved, so I'd say that this first segment of ASM 515 occurs before M/KS-M 1, in which May moves out of her long-time home. I believe this is consistent with our latest conclusions about Spidey chronology. 

In the second segment of ASM 515 -- page 16-page 17, panel 4 -- Weiderman has the interview with Tony Stark that he mentioned to Peter in the first segment. During this interview, it is clear that Stark knows Spidey's true identity. This is confirmed in an editor's note: "How does Tony Stark know Peter Parker is Spider-Man? See New Avengers #3, out this January, true believer!" So, either Stark learns Spidey's secret in NA 3 or Stark reveals in NA 3 that he's known Spidey's secret for some time. 

If the former, then a huge gap must exist between pages 15 and 16 of ASM 515 -- it must have taken several months for Weiderman to snag that interview with Stark. Why? 
ASM 515 (1-15) before M/KS-M 1 
M/KS-M 1 before M/KS-M 2 (featuring Hawkeye) 
M/KS-M 2 before A 503 (Hawkeye dies) 
A 503 "six months" before NA 1 
NA 1 before NA 3 
NA 3 before ASM 515 (16-17) 

A third segment in ASM 515 covers an unspecified period of time following the interview, in which Weiderman sets up a lab/factory and works on his invention, a military skinsuit containing vibranium. (Hmm. Stark funding a military application? That's a big point of contention in this week's IM4 2.) During this time, Spidey's life carries on, as shown in several panels. 

The fourth and final segment of ASM 515 features Peter checking up on Weiderman after getting a phone call from Stark Industries. BTW, we see green grass and trees in New York. My guess is that this segment occurs chronologically later than all the storylines currently published -- probably the spring following those Christmas stories in M/HOL'04 1. 

Of course, if Stark reveals in NA 3 that he's known Spidey's identity for some time, then pages 16-22 of ASM 515 can be slid back if need be.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The solicitation for ASM #518 may throw a monkeywrench into things, as far as May's place of residence goes. Check it out: 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #518 
Written by J. Michael Straczynski 
Penciled by Mike Deodato & Mark Brooks 
Cover by Joe Jusko 

"Skin Deep" 
Throughout the years, theres always been one place that Peter Parker could turn to seek refuge from the storm  no matter how vicious life became, hes always had Aunt Mays home in Queens. Until now, that is. In this remarkable issue, Peters life is changed forever. Part 4 (of 4). 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

No need to fret, yet. Maybe...um...they're going to bulldoze the house months after May moved out. Yeah...that's the ticket... 

Or we can still cling to the notion that Tony Stark will reveal that he's known Spidey's ID for a while.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Spidey gets his mask ripped off in the opening pages of NA #2 -- I'm thinking that this is where it happens. Bendis is real big on having all the heroes reveal their IDs to each other. 

Maybe May will return to the Queens house at the end of M/KS-M #12. How final was her move-out, anyway? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 03:41 pm    
By Jim Smith

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Peter doesn't correct Weiderman to say that May has moved, so I'd say that this first segment of ASM 515 occurs before M/KS-M 1, in which May moves out of her long-time home. I believe this is consistent with our latest conclusions about Spidey chronology. 


I just want to point out that we don't know if May has sold the Forest Hills house yet. It's also possible that she has her mail forwarded from the old address (or for that matter, Peter has been having his mail forwarded since he moved out). 

Quote: 
it must have taken several months for Weiderman to snag that interview with Stark. Why? 
ASM 515 (1-15) before M/KS-M 1 
M/KS-M 1 before M/KS-M 2 (featuring Hawkeye) 
M/KS-M 2 before A 503 (Hawkeye dies) 
A 503 "six months" before NA 1 
NA 1 before NA 3 
NA 3 before ASM 515 (16-17) 

Of course, if Stark reveals in NA 3 that he's known Spidey's identity for some time, then pages 16-22 of ASM 515 can be slid back if need be. 


Not too far back--remember that in M/KS-M 2, Spidey refuses to even discuss the particulars of his search for Aunt May with the Avengers because he doesn't want to reveal his identity. I have to think that if Iron Man already knew, he'd have tried to get Spidey alone somewhere and offer to help more discreetly than the Avengers could. 

Pages 1-15 can go anywhere--and I think I like the placement before Aunt May is kidnapped and rescued--but Pages 16-22 have to be somewhere after M/KS-M 2, and probably after Avengers Disassembled, since it doesn't look like Stark is Secretary of Defense when he interviews Weiderman. 

So, I'm thinking a rough chronology of the Spider-books (and guest appearances I can think of off the top of my head) for this year and the foreseeable future would look something like... 

SSM 8-10 (the last two parts of "Countdown') 
ASM 503-504 ("Chasing a Dark Shadow") 
SSM 11-13 ("The Lizard's Tale") 
ASM 505 (MJ doesn't get a movie role, is still bummed out in 506) 
ASM 506-508 ("Book of Ezekiel") 
SSM 14 (one-shot story) 
ASM 509-514 ("Sins Past") 
ASM 515 p. 1-15 ("two days" after "Sins Past") 
M/KS-M 1-12 (Aunt May is kidnapped and presumably recovered) 
SSM 15-16 ("Royal Flush") 
SSM 17-20 ("Changes") 
A 501-503 ("Avengers Disassembled") 
SSM 21 (FF, Strange, Angel, and Black Cat guest-star) 
SSM 22 (one-shot story) 
M/TU3 1-2 
NTB 3 
NA 1-5? 
ASM 515 p. 16-17 
ASM 515 p. 17-22, ASM 516-518 ("Skin Deep") 
SSM 23-26 ("Sins Remembered")

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Thread 41

Posted: 30 Dec 2004 06:29 pm    Post subject: Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes #4
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here are my notes about how A:EMH 4 intertwines with A. Again, there are awkward spots, but most of it can be reconciled with canonical scenes. The exception is that Cap injury scene noted in the post about A:EMH 3 and below. I have listed the characters who appear in each segment, with brackets [] noting BTS appearances. Immortus is supposed to be BTS throughout; I've listed him whenever Kang appears. 

The first four pages of A:EMH 4 continue directly from the end of A:EMH 3, which was a tie-in to A 6 (which occurs in mid-February, according to Olshevsky). Cap is shown in the tattered costume he wore after being injured in A:EMH 3. This contradicts the end of A 6, in which Cap was not injured. We'll need to figure out which is the canonical scene -- the original from the last page of A 6, or the retcon in A:EMH 3-4. Page 5 of A:EMH 4 is presented as if it occurs at the same time as pages 1-4. On this page, General Wallace shows Iron Man a photo of an alien spacecraft that was spotted "yesterday." This is supposed to be Kang's ship, which throughout this issue is spherical, not the shape it was in A 8. A span of a couple of months must separate pages 5 and 6 of A:EMH 4, as the rest of the issue ties into A 8, noted in Olshevsky's work as occurring in April. (At the very least, A 7 is going to have to occur between pages 5 and 6 of A:EMH, but we have other stories in that gap as well.) My theory: Kang spends a couple of months secretly spying on this time period before he launches his attack. 


AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (pages 1-5) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Special Agent Murch, Paul Wallace 

AVENGERS #8 (page 1-page 5, panel 2) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Paul Ignatius, Kang, [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (pages 6-8) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Kang, [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 5, panel 3-page 13, panel 1) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Kang, [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 9-page 10, panel 3) 
Edwin Jarvis 

AVENGERS #8 (page 13, panel 2-page 15, panel 6) 
Rick Jones, Kang, [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 10, panels 4-6) 
Rick Jones 

AVENGERS #8 (page 15, panel 7-page 17, panel 2) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 11, panels 1-3) 
Kang, [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 17, panel 3) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Captain America, Rick Jones, Kang, [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 11, panel 4-page 12, panel 2) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Captain America, Kang, [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 17, panels 4-5) 
Thor, Giant-Man, Captain America, Kang, [Iron Man], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 12, panels 3-4) 
Thor, Captain America, [Iron Man], [Giant-Man], [Rick Jones], [Kang], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 18) 
Thor, Giant-Man, Wasp, Kang, [Iron Man], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 13, panels 1-3) 
Thor, Giant-Man, Wasp, Kang, [Iron Man], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 19, panels 1-2) 
Giant-Man, Wasp, Kang, [Thor], [Iron Man], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 13, panel 4-page 14, panel 3) 
Giant-Man, Wasp, Kang, [Thor], [Iron Man], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 19, panels 3-5) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Captain America, Kang, [Wasp], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page14, panel 4) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Captain America, Kang, [Wasp], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 19, panel 6-page 20, panel 1) 
Iron Man, Kang, [Thor], [Giant-Man], [Wasp], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 14, panel 5-page 15, panel 2) 
Iron Man, [Thor], [Giant-Man], [Wasp], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Kang], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 20, panels 2-3) 
Iron Man, [Thor], [Giant-Man], [Wasp], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Kang], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 15, panel 3) 
[Iron Man], [Thor], [Giant-Man], [Wasp], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Kang], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 20, panels 4-5) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Captain America, Rick Jones, Kang, [Wasp], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 15, panel 4) 
Thor, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Kang, [Iron Man], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 20, panel 6-page 21, panel 1) 
Captain America, Rick Jones, Kang, [Thor], [Iron Man], [Giant-Man], [Wasp], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIES HEROES #4 (page 15, panel 5-page 16, panel 2) 
Thor, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Kang, [Iron Man], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 21, panels 2-3) 
Thor, Kang, [Iron Man], [Giant-Man], [Wasp], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 16, panel 3-page 17, panel 3) 
Thor, Iron Man, Kang, Paul Wallace, [Giant-Man], [Wasp], [Captain America], [Rick Jones], [Immortus] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 21, panel 4) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, [Rick Jones] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 17, panel 4) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Captain America, Rick Jones, [Wasp] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 21, panels 5-6) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Captain America, Rick Jones, [Wasp] 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (page 17, panel 5-page 18) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones, Paul Wallace, [President of the US] 

AVENGERS #8 (page 21, panel 7) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Rick Jones 

AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES #4 (pages 19-22) 
Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Captain America, Edwin Jarvis, Special Agent Murch
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 42

Posted: 31 Dec 2004 02:51 pm    Post subject: Marvel Adventures
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Reading the March 2005 edition of MARVEL PREVIEWS, it does look rather like the Marvel Adventures books (the relaunched Marvel Age titles) are intended to serve as continuity implants. 

From the MARVEL ADVENTURES: SPIDER-MAN #1 solicitation: "Marvel Adventures presents a new series of amazing stories of everyone's favourite web-slinger. In addition to the action-packed modern adaptations of the Spider-Man classics, Marvel Adventures will bring you new untold stories featuring the greatest heroes and villains of the Marvel Universe." 

Suspiciously similar text turns up in Joe Quesada's editorial: "In addition to the fabulous modern retelling of stories you've grown to love, Marvel Adventures will bring you new untold stories." 

This raises the mildly irritating prospect of a series comprised partly of revised and modernised retellings, and partly of completely original continuity implants. If so, my instinct would be that the original stories would qualify as canon. As for the retellings, unless they were making an obvious effort to adhere to the letter of the original plot, I'd just ignore them.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Dec 2004 03:52 pm    
By Dhall

I would put Professor Xavier & the X-Men in this catagory too. Issue #4 is an original story, apparently meant as a "completely original continuity implant" in the middle of muddled retellings. 

Dave H

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Thread 43

Posted: 31 Dec 2004 05:45 pm    Post subject: New Avengers
By sat avenger

Does anyone know who that new guy (the Ninja looking guy) on New Avengers is? 

Thanks 
Shane

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Thread 44

Posted: 22 Dec 2004 02:40 pm    Post subject: Punisher 2099 and 2099 AD
By the Krayon

my brother has all of the original 2099 issues. i just ordered him the 2099 AD special for his birthday because Punisher makes an appearance. 

i just checked the MCP and noticed that there isn't an entry for Punisher 2099. are there any plans for putting one up? also, has the 2099 AD special been placed relative to the Punisher 2099 series? 

-the_Krayon 

www.pleaseconvinceme.com

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Posted: 22 Dec 2004 04:18 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

2099 will be filled in one day, but alternate universe chronologies have a *very* low priority in these parts. Certainly don't look for anything before the first gap is closed. 


watching: smallville

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Thread 45

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 08:28 am    Post subject: Peter Parker: Spider-Man '97
By JLH

I've noticed this annual was absent, and is part of the second gap, so I figured I'd toss in my analysis of it just in case it slipped through the cracks. 

PETER PARKER: SPIDER-MAN '97 
"Dead Men Walking" 
Writer: Glenn Herdling 
Artist: Shawn McMannus (sic, should be McManus) 


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
ASM 424 
**S-M '97 
PPTSS 246 

SHOTGUN II/J.R. "JUNIOR" WALKER 
PWJ 80 
**S-M '97-FB 
**S-M '97 
ASM 432 

GRANT, GLORIA "GLORY" 
ASMU 16 
**S-M '97-FB 
**S-M '97 
SENSM 24-FB-BTS 

ZOMBIE/SIMON GARTH 
DD@ 9/3 
**S-M '97 
ASMU 20 

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
ASM 424 
**S-M '97 
PPTSS 246 

CALYPSO 
WOSM 110 
**S-M '97-FB (spirit possesses refugee, then passes to Glory) 
**S-M '97 
PPTSS 249 

ROBERTSON, JOE (shouldn't he be listed as "Robertson, Joseph "Robbie"", since he's called Robbie far more than Joe?) 
ASM 424 
**S-M '97 
PPTSS 247 

LEEDS, BETTY BRANT 
ASMU 17 
**S-M '97 
PPTSS 247 

KAFKA, DR. ASHLEY 
ASMU 17 
**S-M '97 
PPTSS 247 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
ASM 422 
**S-M '97 
PPTSS 247 


Ramon 
-Glory's cousin. Is a living zombie, but eventually dies. His last name is never stated (might be Grant, but you can never tell with cousins), but unless he's appeared before (Spidey finds him familiar when they first meet), he'd probably be listed as "RAMON II" (or, "RAMON: FIRST BLOOD PART II"). 

Three unnamed Haitian thugs. 

Two "goomahs" (one of which is named Joey) and the guy they're tossing into the East River with concrete shoes 
-All die, but Joey. I do hope we see him again. 

Several Haitian refugees. 

An unnamed cruise ship employee. 


Summary: Shotgun, a federal agent, tracks the trafficking of a zombiefying drug from Haiti. It leads him to Glory Grant, whose recent trip to the Caribbean put her in the possession of the Talisman of Damballah, and the spirit of Calypso. The Marvel Zombie, Simon Garth, is drawn to it. Glory's cousin is under the influence of that drug, and is a zombie helping bring about Calypso's resurrection. Spidey rounds out the cast. 


Chronology note: All trees have their leaves, save for the ones in Cypress Hills cemetery. The story has to take place prior to PPTSS 249, where Calypso is shown alive again. Other than that, it's anybody's guess where it takes place. I stuck it between ASM 424 and PPTSS 246, just so it's right before the start of any related storylines going on in the book at that point. 

Glory just came back from vacation, which included "a week long cruise to the Caribbean". 

Story begins at night, continues through the next day, that night, the next day, and the early part of that night. That's two and a half days the story takes place, I'd say. 

A flashback shows the last night of Glory's cruise, where she spots Shotgun, and gets the Talisman of Damballah from a person possessed by the spirit of Calypso. 

JLH

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Thread 46

Posted: 19 Sep 2004 11:16 am    Post subject: Request for analyses
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm continuing to examine a number of titles for future calendar placement. I plan to be collecting the following: 
Alpha Flight v3 
Amazing Spider-Man 
Astonishing X-Men v3 
Avengers: Earths Mightiest Heroes 
Avengers Finale 
Cable & Deadpool 
Captain America v4, v5 
Captain America & The Falcon 
Excalibur v3 
Fantastic Four 
Identity Disc 
Invaders v3 
Iron Man, v3, v4 
Marvel Knights 4 
Marvel Knights Spider-Man 
Marvel Team-Up v3 
Mystique 
New Avengers 
New Thunderbolts 
New X-Men: Academy X 
Pulse 
Rogue v3 
Secret War 
She-Hulk v3 
Spectacular Spider-Man v2 
Spider-Man Unlimited v2 
Uncanny X-Men 
X-Force v2 
X-Men v2 
X-Men Unlimited 
Young Avengers 

That's a lot of titles, but there are some I haven't read and don't plan to collect. I wonder if folks wouldn't mind posting some analyses on this forum. 

First, there are a number of canon, contemporary stories that are completed or will be by the end of this week. We've had volunteers for some of these analyses (noted in parentheses), but will need to confirm their continued interest. 
ACTOR Presents Spider-Man & The Incredible Hulk #1 
Daredevil v2 #62-64 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Father #1-5 (Kevin) 
Epic Anthology (Peter) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #75 (Kevin) 
Marvelous Adventures of Gus Beezer: Gus Beezer & Spider-Man #1 
NYX #1-6 (Paul O.) 
Runaways #11-18 (Dan Spears) 
Venom #11-18 (Drew) 
Witches #1-4 
Wolverine v3 #7-12 (Jeph) 
Wolverine/Punisher #1-5 (Peter) 

Also, can anyone provide analysis for the run of the last Black Widow mini-series (vol. 3, I believe)? I have only issue #1. 

Then, there are a number of ongoing, contemporary stories that I'm not following. Do folks plan to provide analyses for these? 
Amazing Fantasy v2 #1-6 
Black Widow v4 #1-6 
District X #1-6 
Elektra: The Hand #1-5 
Hulk & Thing: Hard Knocks #1-4 (Kevin) 
Punisher v7 #8-12 (Kevin) 
Silver Surfer v4 #10-14 (Paul O.) 
Venom Vs. Carnage #1-4 
Wolverine v3 #13-19 (Jeph) 

Thirdly, there are new, canon, contemporary titles coming out that I don't plan to collect: 
Gambit v4 
Jubilee 
Madrox 
Marvel Holiday Special 
Sabretooth v2 
Tomb of Dracula v2 
Warlock v5 

Then there are ongoing, canon stories set in the past that we'll have to place in MCP chronologies: 
Bullseye: Greatest Hits #1-5 
Emma Frost (Paul O.) 
Strange 
Thor: Son of Asgard (Kevin) 
Wolverine: The End [canon flashbacks?] 
X-Men: The End [canon flashbacks?] 

Any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all who post on this forum! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Sep 2004 11:52 am    
By SeanCurtin

I'll probably be tracking down WITCHES and BLACK WIDOW: PALE LITTLE SPIDER next time I hit the comic shop. 

-Sean

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Posted: 19 Sep 2004 03:40 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Hmmm...I thought the Guardians miniseries was canon? I don't see it on any of the lists, Paul...And I thought Paul O. said that Warlock miniseries WASN'T canon? Though maybe both of these titles are still up in the air (as far as their being canon goes) at this time... 

And I don't see the Weapon X title on any of those lists, (though isn't it cancelled now? I don't know, I don't follow this title)...but Paul, did you get reviews for the last few issues of that title? 

Quote: 
>>>
Daredevil v2 #62-64 (Kevin) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #75 and #76 (Kevin) 
Hulk & Thing: Hard Knocks #1-4 (Kevin) 
Punisher v7 #8-12 (Kevin) 
<<<

Yep, some of these reviews will be coming shortly... 


Quote: 
>>>
Daredevil: Father #1-5 (Kevin) 
<<<

Much like the Kevin Smith miniseries, ("DD: Target" and Spiderman: The evil that men do") this "DD:Father" miniseries appears to be another title that will forever be in limbo...the first issue has come out, but no telling when the rest will follow...maybe it'll be like NYX, and we will get a new issue every 4 months...  

I suppose I could do a review for the first issue, though it's my usual policy to wait until the entire miniseries is finished. 

You know, this poses a question for the two Kevin Smith miniseries...are they considered canon since they were never finished? 


Quote: 
>>>
Amazing Fantasy v2 #1-6 
Madrox 
<<<

I can handle these two for you... 


Quote: 
>>>
Thor: Son of Asgard (Kevin) 
<<<

John Simons was kind enough to provide analysis for the first 6 issues of this title, and as for further issues to come, if he doesn't want to do upcoming issues, I can gladly cover those for the MCP. But either him or I, one of use will have this title covered. 


Quote: 
>>>
Elektra: The Hand #1-5 
<<<

I think this miniseries is set in the past... 


Quote: 
>>>
Bullseye: Greatest Hits #1-5 
<<<


While this title is set in contemporary times, (could be wrong on both counts though)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Sep 2004 04:07 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'll back Kevin up on Madrox -- that one I'll be buying in monthly format. I'll take Gambit, Jubilee, and Sabretooth as well, provided you don't mind waiting until the trades come out. (Assuming they get' em -- it's almost a dead cert for Jubilee and Sabretooth, but Gambit may not get one...) 

I *am* still interested in doing W3 #13-19 for you -- the TPB is pre-ordered  -- and I've posted my review of #7-11 already. Someone else, possibly Kevin or Dave Hall, posted a review of #12, and I'll be able to give you a back-up review as soon as that TPB arrives. 

And you know I'll probably chip in with "second opinions" on the rest of the X-books, as well... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Sep 2004 04:13 pm    
By SeanCurtin

SeanCurtin wrote: 
I'll probably be tracking down WITCHES and BLACK WIDOW: PALE LITTLE SPIDER next time I hit the comic shop. 


Well, they didn't have either, so never mind... 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Sep 2004 04:45 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'll back Kevin up on Madrox -- that one I'll be buying in monthly format. 
<<<

Thanks, Jeph, I welcome this whole heartidly, as I'm no expert on the "X" corner of the Marvel universe, (and usually leave it's chronology to those who are).  My reasons for buying it are not for the character, but because it's written by Peter David. Peter David is going to be the new writer for the Hulk ongoing series after the "Hulk/Thing" miniseries completes, (at least for 6 issues) so I'm also keeping track to be on the lookout for possible connections, (though I doubt there will be). 


Quote: 
>>>
I'll take Gambit, Jubilee, and Sabretooth as well, provided you don't mind waiting until the trades come out. (Assuming they get' em -- it's almost a dead cert for Jubilee and Sabretooth, but Gambit may not get one...) 
<<<

Just curious, but what makes you think that Gambit wouldn't get one, yet Jubilee would? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Sep 2004 04:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Sabretooth is a 5-issue mini -- he's a popular guy, and 5 issues is the preferred minimum size for TPBs at Marvel these days. Seems straightforward. 

Jubilee is a Marvel Age book -- the majority of these books get digest collections, and since the series seems to be aimed squarely at teenage girls, I think it's a lock. Also, the Marvel Age imprint as a whole doesn't have to sell as well to earn a TPB -- the bean-counters are looking at the digests, not the monthlies, to make the profits. 

But Gambit? An ongoing series, launched at the same time as a bunch of other X-ongoings. They may end up cancelling each other out in terms of sales -- and out of them all, Gambit is written the most "traditonally" and has no "name" creators on board. It may get one TPB, maaaybe two -- but I doubt it'll make it to vol. 3. If the series makes it to #18, that is.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Sep 2004 09:22 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Oooh. Just thought of another new title not mentioned in this thread yet: 

Nightcrawler. 

Paul, you getting that one?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Sep 2004 10:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin wrote: 
Quote: 
>>>
Hmmm...I thought the Guardians miniseries was canon? I don't see it on any of the lists, Paul...And I thought Paul O. said that Warlock miniseries WASN'T canon? Though maybe both of these titles are still up in the air (as far as their being canon goes) at this time...  
<<<

Actually, now that you mention it, I think we were leaning toward both Guardians and the new Warlock series being non-canon. 


Quote: 
>>>
And I don't see the Weapon X title on any of those lists, (though isn't it cancelled now? I don't know, I don't follow this title)...but Paul, did you get reviews for the last few issues of that title?  
<<<

I collected that title, so it didn't appear on the lists. 


Quote: 
>>>
Yep, some of these reviews will be coming shortly...  
<<<

Much appreciated. That goes for Amazing Fantasy and Madrox, too.  


Quote: 
>>>
this "DD:Father" miniseries appears to be another title that will forever be in limbo...I suppose I could do a review for the first issue, though it's my usual policy to wait until the entire miniseries is finished.  
<<<

If there's anything critical about the first issue that helps or hinders work on placing other titles, then a review (or even just a brief heads-up in the Marvel Universe forum) would be good sooner rather than later. If not, then I can wait... 


Quote: 
>>>
Elektra: The Hand #1-5. I think this miniseries is set in the past...  
<<<

Really? I guess I'll switch it to the appropriate list. 


Jeph wrote: 
Quote: 
>>>
I *am* still interested in doing W3 #13-19 for you -- the TPB is pre-ordered -- and I've posted my review of #7-11 already. Someone else, possibly Kevin or Dave Hall, posted a review of #12, and I'll be able to give you a back-up review as soon as that TPB arrives.  
<<<

Oops. Yup. I just don't have W3 7-12 in the calendar yet, as we were holding off for the Nightcrawler appearance in W3 19 to try to settle placement...and that discussion is going on elsewhere, and your upcoming analysis should help settle things. Thanks. 


Kevin wrote: 
Quote: 
>>>
Oooh. Just thought of another new title not mentioned in this thread yet: Nightcrawler.  
<<<

Good catch. I don't plan to collect that title, at least not yet.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Sep 2004 11:54 pm    
By John Simons

I would be happy to continue doing Thor Son of Asgard, although of course it will have little bearing on the Calendar since it takes place during Thor's teens. 

Depending on how the Loki miniseries ends up, this may or may not be canon, I haven't decided yet. But if it seems to be, I'll do a write-up. 

I would be willing to do the Bullseye mini, too. Again, I think this is an origin story rather than set it current continuity.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Sep 2004 07:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for volunteering, John. True, titles set in the past won't have much bearing on the current Calendar project, but they're included for the sake of the MCP.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Sep 2004 08:47 am    
By jephyork
Director

Bullseye seems to have a framing story set in the present. 

And I'll take Nightcrawler v3, Paul, assuming you can wait for the trade.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Sep 2004 05:55 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Even if Loki isn't canon, the numerous flashbacks may still fit into continuity (just treat it like a What If or a The End). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Sep 2004 07:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
And I'll take Nightcrawler v3, Paul, assuming you can wait for the trade.  


If no one else jumps up and seizes the opportunity to report on this title prior to the trade release, you got it, Jeph. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 09:30 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 

Runaways #11-18 (Dan Spears) 
Venom #11-18 (Drew) 
 


Just curious, but I thought Jeph and Paul O. were handling these respective titles because we hadn't heard from Dan or Drew in a while...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So true. Still not drawing out Dan and Drew, wherever they are.  

Jeph and Paul O., I know you handled the previous story arcs in these titles. Are you willing to continue on? 

Paul
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Sep 2004 04:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yeah, I can handle Venom #11-18. There's only one more issue due out before the book is cancelled, so I'll wait until then.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Sep 2004 06:56 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Paul.  

I'll wait a couple more days to see if there are more volunteers for other titles, then I'll repost the updated list to reflect comments in this thread.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Sep 2004 08:42 am    
By jephyork
Director

Probably best to let Paul O. handle Venom -- I'll be getting the "Run" TPB shortly, which has #6-13, but I haven't read the series before or since, so there may very well be contextual clues and references to other issues that I don't pick up on. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Sep 2004 10:57 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul, when you do your updated list, be sure and add December's previews to the various lists, which, really, only consists of adding the following titles: 

Xmen/Fantastic Four, (miniseries) 
What If's, (wouldn't it have been better to start up a new What If series, instead of flooding December with one-shots?) 
Punisher: Red Xmas, (a one-shot). 

I kinda suspect you'll be collecting the Xmen/FF and the What If's, (right?) If not, I'll probably be picking them up... 

I'll also be collecting the Punisher one-shot, (might as well be complete in my Punisher collecting).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Sep 2004 04:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The WHAT IF one-shots are a fifth week event - they're all coming out between Christmas and New Year, and there's not much else on the schedule for that week. (There's an issue of EXILES, I think, but that's about it.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Sep 2004 06:55 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Paul, when you do your updated list, be sure and add December's previews to the various lists 
<<<

Will do. 


Quote: 
>>>
I kinda suspect you'll be collecting the Xmen/FF and the What If's, (right?) If not, I'll probably be picking them up...  
<<<

I'm adding X-Men/FF to my list, but I'll pass on the What Ifs. If those What Ifs contain canonical material pertaining to the mainstream MU, would you do the analyses, Kevin?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Sep 2004 02:31 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yeah, no problem, though I doubt they'll do these tales in the same style they did years ago, with The Watcher appearing at the start of the tale...but still, we should probably keep an eye out.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Sep 2004 08:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The WHAT IF one-shots are a fifth week event - they're all coming out between Christmas and New Year, and there's not much else on the schedule for that week. (There's an issue of EXILES, I think, but that's about it.) 
<<<

Place your bets now on exactly how many Marvel characters die that week. 


watching: sabrina

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 09:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm reposting my original message in this thread, with updates. I bolded those titles that are still up for grabs. Again, thanks to all. 
_______________ 

I'm continuing to examine a number of titles for future calendar placement. I plan to be collecting the following: 
Alpha Flight v3 
Amazing Spider-Man 
Astonishing X-Men v3 
Avengers: Earths Mightiest Heroes 
Avengers Finale 
Cable & Deadpool 
Captain America v4, v5 
Captain America & The Falcon 
Excalibur v3 
Fantastic Four 
Identity Disc 
Invaders v3 
Iron Man, v3, v4 
Marvel Knights 4 
Marvel Knights Spider-Man 
Marvel Team-Up v3 
Mystique 
New Avengers 
New Thunderbolts 
New X-Men: Academy X 
Pulse 
Rogue v3 
Secret War 
She-Hulk v3 
Spectacular Spider-Man v2 
Spider-Man Unlimited v2 
Uncanny X-Men 
X-Force v2 
X-Men v2 
X-Men/Fantastic Four 
X-Men Unlimited 
Young Avengers 

That's a lot of titles, but there are some I haven't read and don't plan to collect. I wonder if folks wouldn't mind posting some analyses on this forum. 

First, there are a number of canon, contemporary stories that are completed or will be by the end of this week. We've had volunteers for some of these analyses (noted in parentheses), but will need to confirm their continued interest. 
ACTOR Presents Spider-Man & The Incredible Hulk #1 
Daredevil v2 #62-64 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Father #1-5 (Kevin) 
Epic Anthology (Peter) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #75-76 (Kevin) 
Marvelous Adventures of Gus Beezer: Gus Beezer & Spider-Man #1NYX #1-6 (Paul O.) 
Runaways #11-18 (Paul O.) 
Venom #11-18 (Paul O.? Jeph?) 
Witches #1-4 
Wolverine/Punisher #1-5 (Peter) 

Also, can anyone provide analysis for the run of the last Black Widow mini-series (vol. 3, I believe)? I have only issue #1. 

Then, there are a number of ongoing, contemporary stories that I'm not following. Do folks plan to provide analyses for the ones that arent spoken for? 
Amazing Fantasy v2 #1-6 (Kevin) 
Black Widow v4 #1-6 
District X #1-6 
Hulk & Thing: Hard Knocks #1-4 (Kevin) 
Punisher v7 #8-12 (Kevin) 
Silver Surfer v4 #10-14 (Paul O.) 
Venom Vs. Carnage #1-4 
Wolverine v3 #13-19 (Jeph) 

Thirdly, there are new, canon, contemporary titles coming out that I don't plan to collect: 
Gambit v4 
Jubilee 
Madrox (Kevin, w/ backup by Jeph) 
Marvel Holiday Special 
Nightcrawler v3 (Jeph) 
Punisher: Red Xmas 
Sabretooth v2 
Tomb of Dracula v2 
Warlock v5 
What If? one-shots (Kevin) 

Then there are ongoing, canon stories set in the past that we'll have to place in MCP chronologies: 
Bullseye: Greatest Hits #1-5 (John) 
Elektra: The Hand #1-5 
Emma Frost (Paul O.) 
Strange #1-6 
Thor: Son of Asgard (John) 
Wolverine: The End [canon flashbacks?] 
X-Men: The End [canon flashbacks?]
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 11:33 pm    
By PopularLoser

I can take Punisher: Red Xmas. I can also help you with the first six issues of District X.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 02:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, PopularLoser.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 03:49 pm    
By AaronRStanley

I know that they haven't been mentioned, which is fair enough, since this isn't the ULTIMATE Marvel Chronology Project, but is any one person on the site in charge of the Ultimate Characters? is anyone at all doing them on a regular basis? if not, i would like to volunteer to do the Ultimate titles every month. 

Aaron
_________________
Expand your mind

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 04:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
i would like to volunteer to do the Ultimate titles every month.  
<<<

I say go for for it, Aaron. After all, the MCP does have an Ultimate forum, so Ultimate analyses should be fair game. I think, though, that it may be easier to find such analyses in the Ultimate forum rather than here.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 06:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The new Tomb of Dracula is actually volume 3 (volume 4 if you count the Magazine); there was a four-issue miniseries under the Epic imprint. The Epic series was referenced in the Nightstalkers series, so it's definitely canonical. 

-Sean

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 09:20 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

SeanCurtin wrote: 
The new Tomb of Dracula is actually volume 3 (volume 4 if you count the Magazine); there was a four-issue miniseries under the Epic imprint. The Epic series was referenced in the Nightstalkers series, so it's definitely canonical. 


I remember discussing this series on the old board. The sense of the board was that the Epic series was noncanon because it contradicted all of the Dracula stories since the end of the original series, although it did feature a revised version of how Rachel van Helsing died (in contrast to Uncanny X-Men Annual #6). The references in Nightstalkers, such as Blade being in the asylum must be parrallel references and not direct references.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 10:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

AaronRStanley wrote: 
>>>
I know that they haven't been mentioned, which is fair enough, since this isn't the ULTIMATE Marvel Chronology Project, but is any one person on the site in charge of the Ultimate Characters? is anyone at all doing them on a regular basis? if not, i would like to volunteer to do the Ultimate titles every month. 
<<<

The Directors and I are in charge of the site itself, but no one's "in charge," of the Ultimate Characters, or any other characters, nor of any books or titles, or issues. You're welcome to contribute anything, as long as it's on topic. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Ultimate analyses should be fair game. I think, though, that it may be easier to find such analyses in the Ultimate forum rather than here. 
<<<


While they may be easier to find, I don't want to be perceived as "ghettoizing" the Ultimate Universe. Issue analyses of Ultimate books probably belong in this forum. 


watching: cadet kelly

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Posted: 27 Sep 2004 09:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Jeph. No one has stepped up yet to tackle the new mutant titles, so if you don't mind doing the honors when the TPBs come out, that would be great. Thanks.  

Okay...here's the updated list. This time around I'll skip the list of titles I'll be collecting (no changes there). As for the rest, I hope I got everything right. Bold titles are still up for grabs. 

Canon, contemporary stories that are completed: 
ACTOR Presents Spider-Man & The Incredible Hulk #1 
Daredevil v2 #62-64 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Father #1-5 (Kevin) 
Epic Anthology (Peter) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #75-76 (Kevin) 
Marvelous Adventures of Gus Beezer: Gus Beezer & Spider-Man #1 
NYX #1-6 (Paul O.) 
Runaways #11-18 (Paul O.) 
Venom #11-18 (Paul O. and/or Jeph) 
Witches #1-4 
Wolverine/Punisher #1-5 (Peter) 
Also, can anyone provide analysis for the run of the last Black Widow mini-series (vol. 3, I believe)? I have only issue #1. 

Ongoing, contemporary stories that I'm not following: 
Amazing Fantasy v2 #1-6 (Kevin) 
Black Widow v4 #1-6 
District X #1-6 (PopularLoser) 
Hulk & Thing: Hard Knocks #1-4 (Kevin) 
Punisher v7 #8-12 (Kevin) 
Silver Surfer v4 #10-14 (Paul O.) 
Venom Vs. Carnage #1-4 
Wolverine v3 #13-19 (Jeph) 

New, canon, contemporary titles coming out that I don't plan to collect: 
Gambit v4 (Jeph, when the TPB comes out) 
Jubilee (Jeph, when the TPB comes out) 
Madrox (Kevin, w/ backup by Jeph) 
Marvel Holiday Special 
Nightcrawler v3 (Jeph, when the TPB comes out) 
Punisher: Red Xmas (PopularLoser) 
Sabretooth v2 (Jeph, when the TPB comes out) 
Tomb of Dracula v3 
What If? one-shots (Kevin) 

Ongoing, canon stories set in the past that we'll have to place in MCP chronologies: 
Bullseye: Greatest Hits #1-5 (John) 
Elektra: The Hand #1-5 
Emma Frost (Paul O.) 
Strange #1-6 
Thor: Son of Asgard (John) 
Wolverine: The End [canon flashbacks?] 
X-Men: The End [canon flashbacks?] 

As always, any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all who post on this forum!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Sep 2004 09:41 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'll see what I can do about Witches. 


watching: da vinci and the shroud of turin

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Posted: 27 Sep 2004 10:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Cool. Thanks, Russ.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 01:03 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'll take Wolverine: the End as well, if you like. 

Paul, I recently acquired Wolverine v3 #12-18 -- no 19 -- at a comic show. Would you like preliminary analyses of these, or should I wait until I get #19? Either way you'll get a proper write-up of the whole arc when I get #19 -- but do you want something to tide you over until then? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 09:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have been curious about how recent issues of W3 tie into other X-comics, so yes, if you wouldn't mind, analyses would be great at this time, whenever is convenient. And I'm sure you have some theories about proper placement... Kevin did post an analysis of issue #12, though. 

Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 04:02 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The short answer is that the current WOLVERINE series has been entirely free-standing. It can go pretty much anywhere.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 07:27 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, not quite anywhere. W3 19 must occur shortly before WX2 26-28. At the end of WX2 28, Sabretooth is inducted into the new Brotherhood, and he appears with that group in X 161. In X 161, Creed tells Wolverine, "cant I go anywhere without runnin into you, runt?" (a reference to the story that ends in W3 19). 

One reason I'm curious about W3 13-19 is that we were waiting for clues in this story to help us place W2 7-12 as well.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 08:22 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm not sure it's necessarily a reference to "Return of the Native". Wolverine and Sabretooth have been bumping into one another on a regular basis for years. And Sabretooth didn't "run into" Wolverine in that story - he deliberately went looking for him, with the aim of getting Wolveirne to do the hard work in finding and subduing the Native so that he could pick up the scraps.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 04:32 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I just noticed the following title isn't on any of your lists of titles that need analysis, Paul: 

SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR OCTOPUS: YEAR ONE #1-5 

It IS canon, isn't it? 

Also, didn't you get both SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR OCTOPUS: OUT OF REACH and SPIDER-MAN & DOCTOR OCTOPUS: NEGATIVE EXPOSURE yourself, Paul? I just want to confirm, that... 

Not that I'm collecting those miniseries... 

However, go ahead and add me as handling chronology review for this one: 

Black Widow v4 #1-6 

Also, did you ever get reviews for every issue of Sentinel? I thought you were missing the last few issues? 

Moving on... 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
We've had volunteers for some of these analyses (noted in parentheses), but will need to confirm their continued interest. 
Epic Anthology (Peter) 
Wolverine/Punisher #1-5 (Peter) 
<<<


Just like with Drew and Daniel Spears, I don't believe I've seen this individual around in months. Is Peter still on this board? I don't know if I've seen him since we made the switch over to the new message board...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 09:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR OCTOPUS: YEAR ONE #1-5. It IS canon, isn't it?  
<<<

Is it? I was thinking (maybe incorrectly) that it was a non-canonical retcon of some sort. But if it IS canonical, then, yes, we'll need a volunteer to analyze it. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, didn't you get both SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR OCTOPUS: OUT OF REACH and SPIDER-MAN & DOCTOR OCTOPUS: NEGATIVE EXPOSURE yourself, Paul? I just want to confirm, that...  
<<<

Yes, I collected both titles. The former is in July of Year 22 (after the posted calendar's time period). I haven't placed the latter, which seems to occur sometime in the past. I think we started a discussion of that title on this board a while back, but I don't think we ever resolved anything. 


Quote: 
>>>
However, go ahead and add me as handling chronology review for this one: Black Widow v4 #1-6  
<<<

Thanks, Kevin! 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, did you ever get reviews for every issue of Sentinel? I thought you were missing the last few issues?  
<<<

If Sentinel #12 was the last issue, then, yes, I have reviews of the whole series.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 10:12 pm  
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Is it? I was thinking (maybe incorrectly) that it was a non-canonical retcon of some sort. But if it IS canonical, then, yes, we'll need a volunteer to analyze it. 
<<<
 
Well, I dunno...I didn't collect it, so I can't say for certain...anyone else wanna shed any light on this?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 09:51 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I was flipping through Guardians #4 today, and there is an appearance by a Shiar person, (if "Shiar" is the plural for the race, what's the singular version? A Shiarite?) and there is mention made of the Skrulls...I'm still of the opinion that this is intended to be canon.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 10:22 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

According to interviews with writer Zeb Wells, SM/DO:YO is intended to be canon, and the definitive version of Dr Octopus' origin. However, he freely acknowledges that in practice, this depends on whether anyone likes it and future writers bother to use it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 12:03 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So we don't know yet whether this will indeed be canonical, just that the writer hopes that it will be. Is Marvel throwing stories up on a wall to see what sticks?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 01:08 pm    
By John Simons

Doc Ock's history is pretty thoroughly covered in Spider-Man Unlimited #18. I guess the acid test as to whether Year One is canon would be whether it incorporates or contradicts the info supplied in that issue. I have the Unlimited issue, but I haven't been reading Year One. 

For my own files, I typed up a quick summary of the Unlimited issue awhile back. Is anyone reading Year One, and if so, how does the story match up to the following: 

" Carolyn Trainer helps Dr. Octopus piece together his memory; also Peter Parker discusses the villain with Mary Jane and Ben Urich learns more about him from Daily Bugle obituary writer Trilby. Otto Octavius was a pudgy kid who was bullied in school; his construction worker father grew frustrated with him, but his overprotective mother coddled him. Torbert Octavius died in a site accident and Mary Octavius raised Otto to disdain the common man. Carolyn was a fan of his nuclear research from early on and followed his career closely. Otto's possessive mother forced him to end his engagement to a girl named Mary Alice; later when his mother had a date planned he became so furious with her that she had a heart attack and soon died. Not long after came the accident which bonded his mechanical arms to him and began his villainous career as Dr. Octopus. Eventually, Ock and Carolyn conceived a virtual reality interface which not only recorded Otto's memories to allow him to transcend death, but also led to the creation of Angelina Brancale's superpowered construct, Stunner. Because his virtual memory wasn't backed up before he was killed, Dr. Octopus no longer has any knowledge of Spider-Man's secret identity. "
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 05:45 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

To clarify: the story is definitively intended to be canon. That was apparently Wells' remit. But he's a realist, and knows full well that if people don't like it, it will go the way of CHAPTER ONE and never be mentioned again. 

Nonetheless, it is certainly intended to be canonical, and any revisions to history are presumably deliberate.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 01:46 am 
By SeanCurtin

As far as I can tell, the pre-ASM 3 stuff in SM/DO:YO fits just fine with the flashbacks from Spider-Man Unlimited 3 & 18. 

-Sean

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Posted: 04 Dec 2004 02:32 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

This post's for Jeph, (our resident TPB collector): 

This week's issue of Comic Shop News, (available in most comic stores) has a list of every Marvel comic that's going to get a Tradepaperback up through May of 2005. I see a TPB for the Sabertooth miniseries, a TPB for the first 6 issues of Gambit, a TPB for the first 6 issues of Nightcrawler, a TPB for Wolverine #20-25, (that wasn't really in question) but I don't see any TPB for Jubilee...I checked through all the "M's" (for Marvel Age TPB's) I checked through all the "J's" and I just don't see it... 

You were right a while back about how it seems every Marvel Age title gets a TPB, but it appears Jubilee will defy the trend, never to be heard from again....
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Dec 2004 04:03 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

That IS weird. The whole point of Marvel Age is that it's a digest line for bookstores. Jubilee must have been judged a complete bomb in order for it not even to get a digest - and while it's not great, it's certainly not that bad. Either that or Marvel is rethinking the line (and the number of recent Marvel Age cancellations suggests that they may be).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 47

Posted: 09 Dec 2004 02:36 am    Post subject: She-Hulk v3 #10
By lkseitz

S-H3 10, "Skeeter" 
Published: December 2004 (cover date February 2005) 
Dan Slott, writer; Paul Pelletier, penciler; Rick Magyar, inker. 

Appearances (framing sequence): Zoma [Watcher], Champion/Tryco Slatterus [Elder], Titania II/Mary "Skeeter" MacPherran 

Synopsis: Champion asks Zoma who hates She-Hulk most in the universe. Zoma answers by telling the origin of Titania II, much of it heretofore untold. The majority of this issue, therefore, is flashbacks. 

References: The framing sequence follows and references events of S-H3 #7-9. 

Page 1-page 3, panel 2: Champion confronts Zoma, telling him they both want revenge on She-Hulk. Zoma agrees to answer Champion's question, which is who hates She-Hulk most in all the universe. He calls up a viewscreen to display current and past events. All past events up to the Secret Wars take place in or near Denver. 

Pg 3, pn 3-pg 4, pn 2: Shows the events from the end of S-H3 #9, namely She-Hulk punching Titania II/Mary "Skeeter" MacPherran (henceforth simply called Titania) across Manhattan. This is happening "now," so it is not technically a flashback. 

Pg 4, pn 3-4: Shows Titania landing in the mud. 

Pg 5, pn 1-3: We begin a long series of flashbacks with Titania's birth (she was born premature). Appearances by Titania's parents (unnamed beyond MacPherran) and unnamed nurses/doctors. 

Pg 5, pn 4-5: Titania's home life as a young girl. Appearances by Titania's parents, two older brothers, and what I presume is another older sibling who may be a girl, but it's unclear. No names disclosed. 

Pg 6, pn 1-3: Shows Titania changing little as her classmates obviously mature through the years. Not necessarily true flashbacks, could simply be representational as the three featured, unnamed classmates and Titania maintain the same basic positions each time. 

Pg 6, pn 4-6: Now about high school age, Titania is pushed down by Vanessa Ashwood and helped up by Marsha Rosenberg who will later become (and henceforth referred to as) Volcana. This appears to be their first meeting. 

Pg 7: An unspecified amount of time later, Titania on the job at Nu-Mart, despising Vanessa Ashwood for having it all and dreaming of winning the lottery. Volcana in background. Appearance by Titania & Volcana's unnamed boss. Titania is still living with her parents as most of her salary goes to help her family. 

Pg 8: Titania dreaming of getting super powers while rearranging comic book rack at Nu-Mart. Uncertain if this is right after page 7 or sometime later. 

Pg 9-10: Again an unspecified amount of time later (but Titania is still working at Nu-Mart), Titania is on the scene when Spider-Woman II/Julia Carpenter apprehends Man-Bull. Two unnamed Guardsman from the Vault also appear. Titania spends the night thinking about Spider-Woman and at work the next day tells Volcana that she is Spider-Woman. 

Pg 11-pg 15, pn 2: Probably a few weeks later, Titania and Volcana attend Vanessa Ashwood's family ball. The "secret" is out that Titania is Spider-Woman. During the party, the Beyonder (behind the scenes) takes their chunk of Denver to Battleworld. Spider-Woman shows up at the party to save some guests from a falling section of fence, proving Titania isn't Spider-Woman as they appear simultaneously. Vanessa turns the guests on Titania, thinking they were tricked into believing she was Spider-Woman, and chase Titania and Volcana into the woods. There they encounter Doctor Doom who offers them great power. 

Pg 15, pn 3-pg 16 pn 2: Verbatim flashback from M/SHSW 3, pg 14-15, right down to exact snippets of that dialog. 

Pg 15, rest of page: Back in "now," Champion interrupts Zoma to skip a bit to why she hates She-Hulk. In the background are three flashback scenes: a Secret Wars flashback (Titania vs. X-Men), Titania posing, and Titania & Absorbing Man about to kiss (can't determine exactly when these last two take place). 

Pg 16, pn 1: Zoma continues narration of flashbacks. 

Pg 16, pn 2-4: More verbatim flashbacks from M/SHSW 7, including exact dialog. 

Pg 16, pn 5-pg 17: Continues the Secret Wars flashback straight from panel 4, but these are new! Appearances by Absorbing Man, Doctor Octopus, Wrecker III, Thunderball, and Piledriver II. (Bulldozer apparently stayed unconcious as he doesn't appear in the original SW issues at this point in the story either.) 

Pg 18, pn 1-3: More generic Secret War flashbacks; no new info. 

Pg 19, pn 4-pg 20: The villains on their way back to Earth (thanks to Molecule Man), resting in Volcana's apartment. Titania goes to beat up Vanessa Ashwood. Absorbing Man follows and tells Titania she'll get another shot at She-Hulk. Appearances also by Doctor Octopus, Lizard, Enchantress, Volcana, Thunderball, Wrecker III, and Molecule Man. The presence of Enchantress and Lizard means this scene has to take place between M/SHSW 11 and 12. Molecule Man takes the stolen chunk of Denver into space in #11. In the first villains scene in #12, the Enchantress and Lizard end up being transported back to Battleworld. 

Pg 21, pn 1: Flashbacks of Titania's subsequent defeats at the hands of She-Hulk. 

Pg 21, pn 2: New flashback (I believe) of Titania training to defeat She-Hulk for S-H3 9. 

Pg 21, pn 3: She-Hulk punching Titania, as from pg 4. 

Pg 21, pn 4: The flashbacks end as Zoma is talking to Champion. In the background (panel 5?), Titania is still sitting in the mud. 

Pg 22: Champion immediately goes to Titania, still sitting in the mud on Earth, and offers her the Power Infinity Gem. 

Chronology additions: 
These are ones I'm (mostly) sure of. Characters mentioned above and not listed here (e.g. Spider-Woman II) have relevent appearances in comics I don't own. 

ABSORBING MAN 
... 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 1-20) 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 16 pn 5-pg 17) 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 21-24) 
M/SHSW 8 
M/SHSW 9 
M/SHSW 10 
M/SHSW 11 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 19, pn 4-pg 20) 
M/SHSW 12 
... 

**ASHWOOD, VANESSA 
** S-H3 10-FB 

BEYONDER 
... 
UX 180-BTS ~ A 242-BTS ~ ASM 250 
** S-H3 10-FB-BTS 
{M/SHSW 1} 
... 

BULLDOZER 
... 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 1-20) 
** S-H3 10-FB-BTS (pg 16 pn 5-pg 17) 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 21-24) 
... 

DOCTOR DOOM 
... 
M/SHSW 2 
** S-H3 10-FB 
M/SHSW 3 
... 

DOCTOR OCTOPUS 
... 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 1-20) 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 16 pn 5-pg 17) 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 21-24) 
M/SHSW 8 
M/SHSW 9 
M/SHSW 11 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 19, pn 4) 
M/SHSW 12 
... 

ENCHANTRESS 
... 
M/SHSW 11 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 19, pn 4) 
M/SHSW 12 
... 

LIZARD 
... 
M/SHSW 11 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 19, pn 4) 
M/SHSW 12 
... 

MOLECULE MAN 
... 
M/SHSW 11 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 19, pn 4) 
M/SHSW 12 
... 

PILEDRIVER II 
... 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 1-20) 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 16 pn 5-pg 17) 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 21-24) 
... 

THUNDERBALL 
... 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 1-20) 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 16 pn 5-pg 17) 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 21-24) 
M/SHSW 8 
M/SHSW 10 
M/SHSW 11 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 19, pn 4) 
M/SHSW 12 
... 

TITANIA II 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 5-15, pn 2) 
* {M/SHSW 3} 
M/SHSW 4 
M/SHSW 5 
M/SHSW 6 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 1-20) 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 16 pn 5-pg 17) 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 21-24) 
M/SHSW 8 
M/SHSW 11 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 19, pn 4-pg 20) 
M/SHSW 12 
... 
CM6 18-FB (I honestly don't know what this flashback is, so the one below could come before it for all I know) 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 21, pn 2) 
** S-H3 9 
** S-H3 10 

VOLCANA 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 6-15, pn 2) 
* {M/SHSW 3} 
M/SHSW 4 
M/SHSW 5 
M/SHSW 6 
M/SHSW 7 
M/SHSW 8 
M/SHSW 11 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 19, pn 4) 
M/SHSW 12 
... 

WRECKER III 
... 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 1-20) 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 16 pn 5-pg 17) 
M/SHSW 7 (pg 21-24) 
M/SHSW 8 
M/SHSW 10 
M/SHSW 11 
** S-H3 10-FB (pg 19, pn 4) 
M/SHSW 12 
... 

Whew, I didn't realize this was going to take so long to type up! Anyone with the Spider-Woman II pre-Secret Wars flashbacks want to tackle her?
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 48

Posted: 11 Dec 2004 07:13 pm    Post subject: Odin in Tales of Suspense#39
By Enda80

Thirty-Nine (March, 1963) 
Title: "The Last Rocket!" 
Story: 
Art: Gene Colan 
Heroes: Adam and Eve [man and wife] 
Villains: 
Others: 
Genre: Science Fiction 
Setting: Earth [future?] 
Reprinted In: Tales Of Suspense#39 Marvel Milestone 
Synopsis: With news of the sun's imminent destruction, earthmen evacuate, save one husband and wife. When the time finally comes, a new sun is born, and Adam and Eve are left to re-populate the earth. 


Title: "Gundar" 
Story: Stan Lee 
Art: Steve Ditko 
Heroes: Gundar [ship-wrecked man] 
Villains: Gundar [ruthless Viking] 
Others: Vikings including one named Lars on page 5, Odin 
Genre: Fantasy 
Setting: A nameless island, 1960's 
Reprinted In: Tales of Suspense#39 Marvel Milestone; Creatures On The Loose#22 
Synopsis: A shipwrecked man meets Vikings, who tell him how they mutinyed against their tyrannical captain, who cursed them to remain upon a deserted island, which only he could lift. However, the shipwrecked man is Gundar's descendent, and lifts the curse, returning them home. 

Odin can indeed be seen on page 4 in the flashback. I am slotting this as around Thor#401 due to the presence of Vikings. 

DF 2.4 
DF 3.6 
DF 4.8 
T@ 11-FB 
T2 52-FB 
T@ 5 
T 401 
**TOS 39/3-FB 
JIM 110/2 
JIM 117/2

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Posted: 11 Dec 2004 07:53 pm    Post subject: Death in Kull III#2
By Enda80

Kull III#2 

Published: July 1983 

Written By Alan Zelenetz drawn by John Buscema 

Appearances: 
First story: Tu, Ridondo, Kull, Brule, Akreon, Ethias, Ravian, Gallus, Talena, Calnor, Death 

Summary: 
His councilor Tu injured, Kull seeks the Amulet of Ka ("the bird of creation"). During a quest, they encounter strange plants whose seeds came from outer space, as Kull saw in Tuzun Thune's mirrors. He and Brule (his companion) meet bird-men, whom Brule refers to as an Elder Race. Ravian and Vultus are among the bird-men. Ravian is Vultus' uncle. Kull later uses the Amulet of Ka to heal Tu. Later (a fortnight later), Kull tries to use it to resurrect a man named Gallus, but an enraged Death, annoyed that Kull would try to take a soul from her, possesses Gallus' body and attacks Kull. Kull smashes Gallus' body. 


Brief Syopsis: 
References: 18,500 BCE; Conan Saga places this between Kull the Conqueror#1 and #3 


Flashback sequence#1 
Characters; Ravian, Vultus 
Ravian and Vultus were among the bird-men who thousands of years ago "lost a battle with the first true men in the northern lands"-we see a snowy landscape. The bird-women and children died. 

FB#2: Kull and Sareeta (not named; this is parallel to the fbs in Kull I#1, Savage Sword#3 and #202) 
A woman who had married a non-Atlantean was set for a brutual torture death. Kull could not stop it, so he killed her out of mercy. 

Notes: Conan Saga#97 confirms that Death possessed Gallus. Death also appeared in the Vale of the Shadow with Kull. 

The Flame Winds of Khitai had Conan meet a figure that claimed to be Death, but Conan dismissed it as an imposter. 

Besides the bird-men, other Elder Races include the Elder Race (Tuzun Thune, Kharon, etc.), the wolf-men, the harpies, the Serpent Men, and some others. See Marvel Team-Up I#111, Kull I#2, Kull II#2, and Savage Sword of Conan#230-233 (Kull back-ups). 

Death's entry has a few omissions. To wit 

DEATH 
A:CQ 5-FB 
**KULL3 2 
**AF 8-FB 
**DL 9/4 
WIH 13 
WIH 14 
WIH 15 
{CM 27} 
KS 
DPOOL '98-FB 
CX 43/2 
M/GN 1 


from marvunapp.com 
.......................................................................................................... 
DEATH-cosmic entity embodying mortality,claims relationship to eternity and galactus,worshipped by thanos,oppsed dracula, unclear romantic relationship to deadpool 
-MISTRESS DEATH, DEATH RYDER*, John Kowalski*, Carlos Muerte* (I#13,D#3,net)--Captain Marvel I#26 (Avengers: Celestial Quest#5(fb1), 
Kull the Conqueror III#2, Marvel Graphic Novel: Kull: Vale of the Shadow, 
Dracula Lives#9/4, Alpha Flight I#8(fb), 
War Is Hell#9-15, 
Mystic#21 (Dorothy's Doll), Journey Into Mystery II#9 (Coffin of Hell), Amazing Adult Fantasy#9 
CaptMarv26,27 Deadpool/DeathAn1998(fb), Av17_(korvac), Avengers: Celestial Quest#8(fb), Marvel Super-Heroes: Contest of Champions I#1-3, Fantastic Four I#257, Secret Wars II#7, Spectacular Spider-Man II#111, Power Pack I#20, New Mutants I#41, West Coast Avengers An2, Avengers An16, Solo Avengers#5/2, Silver Surfer III#10, 17, 34, 38, Marvel Comics Presents#108/4-111/4, Thanos Quest#1,2 Spider-Man#17, Infinity Gauntlet#1, Quasar#25, InfG#2-6 Damage Control III#4, Infinity War#2, Dr. Strange III#45, Incredible Hulk II#418, Cosmic Powers Unlimited#1, Deadpool/Death Annual 1998, Dp33-37, Captain Marvel V#17(fb), 17,18, XMen Forever#1, Deadpool III#61, Avengers: Celestial Quest#2-8, Amazing Spider-Man II#62//503

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 11 Dec 2004 10:22 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #10
By SeanCurtin

Spider-Man's Tangled Web #10 (Mar '02) 
"Ray of Light" 

Two brothers are watching the "Insect Man" TV show when a battle between Spider-Man and Electro bursts into their apartment. The kids distract Electro long enough for the unconscious Spider-Man to wake up and knock out Electro. Peter gives them a pep talk and some money to fix the hole in the wall, and swings away with Electro in tow. 

Characters appearing: Spider-Man, Electro, Kasey and Jack and their mother (last names not given) 

Character chronologies: 

ELECTRO/MAX DILLON 
PPSM2 17 
**TW 10 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
ALIAS 15 
**TW 10 
ASM2 39 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 11 Dec 2004 10:35 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #15
By SeanCurtin

Spider-Man's Tangled Web #15 (Aug '02) 
"The Collaborator" 

Heather, a teenage girl who idolizes Spider-Man, goes to a robbery in progress hoping to see a real super-villain, the Stag Beetle ("a new one" she says on hearing about him). She sees the villain, decides to get out of the way, and sees him escape. When Spider-Man arrives she points him in the Beetle's direction, then realizes - too late - that the Stag Beetle is actually her father. 

Characters appearing: 

**KROLNEK, HEATHER 
TW 15 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
ALIAS 15 
**TW 10 
**TW 15 
ASM2 39 

**STAG BEETLE/KROLNEK 
TW 15 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 16 Dec 2004 01:57 am    Post subject: Marvel Graphic Novel: Rick Mason: The Agent
By SeanCurtin

Marvel Graphic Novel: Rick Mason: The Agent (1989) 

Secret agent Rick Mason, alias The Agent, discovers a revolutionary group in Hong Kong and follows their trail from Manhattan to the nation of Costa Brava thanks to information from Nick Fury and from his own father, the Tinkerer. He deals with the armored Black Metal and his superhuman drug-smuggling mercenaries, all hired by the Kingpin, and ultimately defeats and kills his former mentor, Teng Yun-Suan. 

The context of Nick Fury's presence places this between NFV.S 6 and NF3 1. Although the Tinkerer reference having met with his son recently in AF 79, AF 79 was part of "Acts of Vengeance", which occurs after SHIELD has been fully reformed. The meeting in AF 79 should refer to a second meeting rather than to this meeting. 

Photographs of Dog's allies, including Gamma Flight's Silver and Auric (here called "Gold") are seen here, making this the first apparance (albeit not in person) for those latter two. 

Boxes in the Tinkerer's apartment are labelled "Jack O'Lantern", "Grim Reaper" and "Jester gimmicks", though that doesn't quite count as a BTS. 

Characters appearing: Agent/Rick Mason, Teng Yun-Suan, Julie Somers, Horse, Streetman, Nick Fury, Black Metal, Stealth/Carlos McNally, Quota, Zapper/Colin Smith, Noise/Julio Mendoza, Kingpin, Dog, Tinkerer, Victoria Maria Consuela, Javier La Brava 
Flashback #1: Black Metal involved in the takeover of Costa Brava. 
Flashbacks #2-5: Black Metal, Stealth, Quota, Zapper, and Noise, respectively; all occur some time before flashback #1. 
Flashback #6 (between pages 2 & 3): Agent and Teng Yun-Suan talk. 
BTS (photograph only): Dog, Monkey, She Devil, Silver, "Gold"/Auric 

**AGENT/RICK MASON 
AGENTGN 
AGENTGN-FB 
AGENTGN 
AF 79-BTS 
(CAGE 13 
CAGE 14 - both Gap books) 
SM:DMH-BTS 
(DEADLINE 2-BTS - not yet analyzed) 

(Not to be confused with AGENT II, the identity used by the brainwashed Ricochet Rita from XCAL:MM) 

AURIC/JIMON KWAN 
**AGENTGN-BTS 
AF 76 

**BLACK METAL/ 
AGENTGN-FB 
AGENTGN-FB 
AGENTGN 

**CONSUELA, VICTORIA MARIA 
AGENTGN 

**DOG/ 
AGENTGN 

FURY, NICK 
CA 351 
**AGENTGN 
NF3 1 

GOLD 
See AURIC 

**HORSE/ 
AGENTGN 

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK 
WOSM 55 
**AGENTGN 
ASM 326-BTS 

**LA BRAVA, JAVIER 
AGENTGN 

**MONKEY/ 
AGENTGN-BTS 

**NOISE/JULIO MENDOZA 
AGENTGN-FB 
AGENTGN 

**QUOTA/ 
AGENTGN-FB 
AGENTGN 

**SHE DEVIL 
AGENTGN-BTS 

SILVER/JIMON KWAN 
**AGENTGN-BTS 
AF 76 

**SOMERS, JULIE 
AGENTGN 

**STEALTH/CARLOS MCNALLY 
AGENTGN-FB 
AGENTGN 

**STREETMAN 
AGENTGN 

**TENG YUN-SUAN 
AGENTGN 
AGENTGN-FB 
AGENTGN 

TINKERER/PHINEAS MASON 
ASM 310 
**AGENTGN 
WOSM 58 

**ZAPPER/COLIN SMITH 
AGENTGN-FB 
AGENTGN 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 53

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 10:37 pm    Post subject: Nightcat #1
By SeanCurtin

Nightcat #1 (April 1991) 

Jacqueline Tavarez, would-be singer, decides to dress up in a disguise and take on an alias in order to break into showbiz without upsetting her father, for it was showbiz that killed her mother. Well, showbiz and alcohol, but her father only forbade her to sing, not to drink. Oh, and her "disguise" consists of a headband and cleavage. So she calls herself Nightcat, styling herself after the popular Batman antagonist who had just appeared in a blockbuster movie - no, wait, sorry, that was the concept's origin in the real world; in the comic she bases Nightcat on her favorite comic book characters ("Catlass", "Superfeline", "The Night Meow" - this was scripted by Stan Lee, True Believers! And yeah, if I pictured a person who would pattern their life after a comic book character, the mental image would definitely be that of a pop music singer with '80s-style teased-up hair and fringed shoulderpads). 

Anyway. Nightcat gets signed by a record company after winning a contest, and from there goes on to appear on the cover of Rolling Stone, Spin, TV Guide and Time Magazine (slow news week?). But! Then she stumbles onto a drug smuggling ring being run out of her recording company's offices. Nightcat is caught, and gets a super-powered origin Cloak & Dagger style: the drug cartel's staff doctor (ok, staff mad scientist), Dr. Ecstasy, injects her with a "cat serum", giving her the abilities of... wait for it... a CAT! Imagine how awkward it would be if someone named after a cat were injected with an armadillo serum. So her cat powers turn her fingernails into claws, and apparently her red nail polish must have been made out of unstable molecules, because the claws are red too. 

The smugglers shoot her father, who at first didn't recognize her, what with her wearing a headband and no bra. He dies, leaving her an orphan like all proper superheroes, and thus giving her a motivation to do good deeds while making bad music. Nightcat tracks down the drug ring's leader, respectable businesswoman Amanda Gideon, and Gideon's cyborg enforcer Krak (with a name like that, his only career options were drug dealing or chiropracy). Both villains die through sheer coincidence in battle with the heroine. 

No MU characters other than Stan Lee appear or are referenced in this comic; however, Nightcat is later referenced in the credits of "Damage Control: The Movie" in DAMCON3 3, bringing her into the Marvel Universe proper. Never mind that she's based on a real person - that didn't stop the Human Fly, or Uri Geller, or the Hate-Monger. 

Characters appearing: 

DOCTOR ECSTASY 
NCAT 1 

GIDEON, AMANDA 
NCAT 1 

KRAK, MR. 
NCAT 1 

LEE, STAN 
WOSM 73 
**NCAT 1 
A 332 

NIGHTCAT/JACQUELINE "JACKIE" TAVAREZ 
NCAT 1-FB 
NCAT 1 
DAMCON3 3-BTS 

TAVAREZ, OFFICER LOU 
NCAT 1-FB 
NCAT 1 

TAVAREZ, BETH 
NCAT 1-FB 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 11:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
LEE, STAN 
WOSM 73 
**NCAT 1 
A 332 
<<<


Hmm. The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers vol. 2 #6 lists M/TU 137 as Stan Lee's last appearance before A 332. I would assume they took NCAT 1 into account, but even discounting that, it would leave WOSM 73 as Stan the Man's last appearance before A 332. Has the Index been discredited on this reference?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 11:14 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, I can't speak for what the Marvel Index was thinking, but M/TU 137 was Aunt May and Franklin Richards vs. Galactus. It was a dream. Your dream. The reader's dream. I'm serious. 


watching: news

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2004 12:11 am 
By SeanCurtin

The Unofficial and Official Indices have been known to overlook appearances, especially when it comes to the later Indices and relatively obscure comics. For example, I doubt that Dr. Doom's appearance in SOLARMAN #2 is taken into account in the most recent FF Index. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2004 03:41 am    Post subject: What does Stan Lee do in this issue?
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/leestanl.htm 
I thought it would make a nice addition to the entry. 
Reminds, I think Stan Lee was in Silver Surfer#-1, in an appearance 
which does not break the Fourth Wall too much as his other appearances in #-1 issues did.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2004 01:23 pm
By lkseitz

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Well, I can't speak for what the Marvel Index was thinking, but M/TU 137 was Aunt May and Franklin Richards vs. Galactus. It was a dream. Your dream. The reader's dream. I'm serious. 
<<<

Actually, it was the readers dreaming about the editors dreaming about Peter Parker dreaming about May and Franklin vs. Galactus . . . if I recall correctly. My favorite story from Assistant Editor's Month. 

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
watching: news 
<<<

Do you ever turn your TV off? 
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2004 02:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
Do you ever turn your TV off?  
<<<

I'm a Watcher. That's my job. 


watching: essence of emeril

				*	*	*

Thread 54

Posted: 16 Dec 2004 01:11 am    Post subject: Chronology Review for Punisher MAX #7-12
By Kevin W.
Director

Sorry for the delay on this, Paul. I know that I've already done a review for Punisher #7, but I had to restructure things a tiny bit, so it's presented here again as well. This storyline had waaay too many characters, and in usual Punisher fasion, most of them are dead by the end of the storyline, but I figured to do a good job on chronology, it was best to note everyone of them. Here's what I've ended up with: 

Punisher #7-12 
"Kitchen Irish" 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez 

This arc returns us to what is apparently one of Garth Ennis's favorite topics of discussion: the plight of Ireland. The plot drops the Punisher right into the middle of an Irish American Gang War. It got a bit tricky to take into account some of the time references throughout the 6 issue arc, but I made the best of it, and have mapped things out chronologically, as seen below. 

Punisher #7 
"Kitchen Irish Pt. 1" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Leandro Fernandez 

Appearances: The Punisher, New Characters: Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, Michael Morrison, Tommy Toner, Napper French, Billy, (Nappers grandson), Maginty. 

Synopsis: DAY 1 for this storyline. 

Pgs. 1-11: Frank is walking through the streets of Hell's Kitchen, when he decides to stop for a bite to eat at a small little restaurant. He's about to begin staking out the bar across the street, (he's heard of some shady activity going on there). But he's not there too long a bomb tears throught the bar across the street, (called the 'Kerry Castle'). Frank barely survives the explosion, (while most everyone around him is butchered from the shockwave and exploding glass and debris). In the aftermath, Frank picks himself up off the floor, and as the paramedics arrive, Frank actually decides to help out with the wounded, performing CPR, stopping bloodflow, that sort of thing. He complains about with bombs, there's no one around to kill afterwords, so he's resorting to his old training, (he's done this emergency treatment before, back in Vietnam). 

Later on, he's still sticking around the scene of the blast, (no one's looking for the Punisher, they're too busy dealing with the bomb fallout). Frank listens in on two police officers, who conclude that going by the initial evidence, the IRA (Irish Republican Army) just set off a bomb in New York City. 

Pgs. 12-22: THE NEXT DAY, (DAY 2). We cut to a meeting going on between three Irish terrorists, Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, (Finn's younger nephew) and Michael Morrison. They had set up the bomb at the Kerry Castle, but had meant for it to go off at 4 am in the morning, when a bunch of Irish gangsters and terrorists were supposed to meet there, for some sort of declaration of peace between the warring gangsters. The bomb went off prematurely, thus killing innocent civilians in the middle of the day. Finn has a badly damaged face from a bomb blast that went off prematurely some time back, (another horribly grotesque figure created by Ennis; this is something he seems to specialize in). Michael complains that their plans are all going wrong, but Finn puts him in his place. 

Meanwhile, the Punisher has resumed staking out the remains of the Kerry Castle. He spots Tommy Toner (an Irish gangster, the leader of a group called the 'Westies') and his men staking out the place as well. Tommy is the owner of the place, (the Kerry Castle was a meeting place for the Westies) and wants to know who's responsible for trying to kill him. Punisher contemplates whacking him, but just then, a van pulls up, kills Tommy's bodyguards, and drive off with Tommy. Punisher's like, "Well, this is an interesting development". 

We cut to a different scene. An old man named Napper French is watching over his grandson Billy, as the boy plays in the park in a local playground. Napper is confronted by a black man who calls himself Maginty, and who says he wants to hire Napper. Napper was apparently a hitman for an Irish gangster well over 30 years ago, and Napper has a reputation as being famous for how he dismembered corpses. Napper tells Maginty he doesn't work for anyone anymore, but Maginty then points to a van in the corner. Napper looks to it to find a thug is holding his grandson inside the van, a gun to the boy's head. Napper agrees to do whatever Maginty wants, but asks who he is. Maginty explains he's Irish too, just like Napper, and from Dublin. 

That's how it ends. 

References: 

First, some time has to have passed since the last arc. Punisher was pretty badly wounded by the end of that arc, and in this issue, (at the start of it anyway) he doesnt appear wounded at all. 

Also, the weather in this issue, (and in subsequent issues) seems to indicate Autumn, (or could it be Winter?). People are wearing jackets and scarfs, and the wind appears cold outside. 

Right on page 1 and 2, Frank narrates to us, They call Hells Kitchen Clinton these days. I dont know who they think theyre kidding. Price the locals out. Let them rot in Queens or Jersey. Build Yuppie condos, clubs and gyms. A gallery or two. An internet caf. Open coffee shops in shells of ancient sports bars, where not so long ago, the Westies cut each other up with razors. Give the neighborhood to joggers; these twenty blocks that drank and fought and fucked their way to New York City legend. Pretend it never happened. Deny, Deny, Deny. Just dont be surprised when the past creeps up and bites you in the ass, the way it always does. 

And thats when the bomb goes off. But could these references to the renovating of Hells Kitchen be a reference to the events of the last year in Daredevil? Wherein Matt Murdock declared himself the new Kingpin, and cleaned up the streets of the Kitchen? 

Pg. 10: By this point, Franks been there all day. He says, By nightfall, the media have a body count: eleven dead and thirty injured. I was unsure if all events of this issue are spread out over the same day, or over two days, (cause the artist uses really bad lighting techniques, so that on some pages I was unsure if it was daylight or nighttime outside). So Frank says its nightfall, and after page 11, we cut to a scene where its clearly daylight, (the scene with Finn, Michael, and Peter). So from that point onward its the next day. 


Punisher #8 
"Kitchen Irish Pt. 2" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Leandro Fernandez 


Appearances: The Punisher, Yorkie Mitchell, Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, Michael Morrison, Tommy Toner, Napper French, Billy, (Nappers grandson), Maginty. New Characters: Andy Lorimer, (Yorkies partner), Eamon, Polly, Bunk, and Danni, (all are members of the River Rats) 

Synopsis: The Next Day, (DAY 3): 

New Scene: (I theorize this is early morning, after midnight, going by time references later on): Yorkie Mitchell, (a British Secret Service operative Frank knows, and a character Garth Ennis has used before, as seen in the last volume of Punisher, Issue 18 to be exact) is eating at a local diner (a 24 hour diner?) near where the bomb went off last issue. With him is Andy Lorimer, a young Lance-Corporal in the British Army, and who is aiding Yorkie on his mission here in the states. Theyre eating close to the bombsite hoping to draw Franks attention. It works, and soon Frank is joining them for a bite to eat, asking Yorkie just what hes doing here. 

Yorkie explains hes been sent by the British govt. to assassinate Finn Cooley, whom he tells Frank was the one behind the bombing of the Kerry Castle yesterday. Andy Lorimer is with Yorkie as a favor to Andys father, who was killed by an I.R.A. sniper: Peter Cooley, (Finns nephew, whos traveling with Finn). Theyve come ask for Franks help as they know Frank has weaponry, (to stay unnoticed, they entered the country without weaponry). 

New Scene, (it's the middle of the night here): Meanwhile, Maginty and his group of black thugs take Napper French and his grandson back to their place, and force Napper to go into another room and to start cutting up the still alive Tommy Toner, (whom they abducted last issue). 

New Scene, (it appears the sun it setting, but could also mean it's rising. I chose rising, to make some timeframe references work): Meanwhile, we cut to a scene where a group of young thugs in speed boats pull up alongside a yacht in New York harbor. They board it and rob a group of rich socialites onboard, and make off in their boats. We learn that this group calls itself the River Rats; they are led by the brother and sister team of Eamon and Polly, a couple of Irish Americans. 

New Scene, (they're indoors, and thus no telling what time of day or night it is. It's obviously during business office hours, judging by Maginty's phonecall): Maginty starts placing calls to Fedex, and starts plotting mailing pieces of Tommys body to his gangs hideout, to intimidate them into leaving New York, (he says his gang is outnumbered in this Irish gang war, and so he hopes to scare some of the competition off). Fedex agrees to come by and start picking up the packages. 

New Scene, (now it's clearly in the evening hours, before midnight): We cut to a little later on, as Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, and Michael Morrison are sitting down for a bite to eat in an Irish American bar. Theyre looking to run into the River Rats here, or some of Tommy Toners men, to try and get a truce in this gang war, (as their bomb plot failed). The folks in here are sympathetic to the plight of Ireland, and when word spreads around of Finn Cooley being an old Irish Freedom Fighter, they raise a toast to him. But this attention turns out to be a bad thing, as into the bar walks the Punisher, who calls out Finns name, and tells everyone else, Anyone not wanting to die for Ireland better clear on out the back. 

Thats how the issue ends 

Reference: 

Please note that all sequences listed above are in their proper story order as presented in the book, and on the same day, so I didn't see the need to break scenes down by page number. I just spread events of the issue out over one day. 

Pg 11: Yorkie says, No, its not a coincidence an I.R.A. unit set off a bomb in Hells Kitchen the day before I arrived. 

Also on Pg. 11: Yorkie also says about Finn Cooley, We got a tip-off he crossed over into the States from Canada about two weeks ago. Figured Id make note of the time reference 


Punisher #9 
"Kitchen Irish Pt. 3" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Leandro Fernandez 


Appearances: The Punisher, Yorkie Mitchell, Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, Michael Morrison, Tommy Toner, Napper French, Billy, (Nappers grandson), Maginty, Andy Lorimer, (Yorkies partner), Eamon, Polly, Bunk, and Danni, (all are members of the River Rats), New characters: Brenda Toner, (Tommy Toners wife), Gerry, (one of Tommy and Brendas thugs). 

Synopsis: Still DAY 3, (pgs. 1-18): Picks up right where we left off last issue. 

Punisher is about to start interrogating Finn Cooley in the bar, (all the other patrons have fled out the back door). Just then, into the front door of the bar walk the River Rats, who Frank fires upon. A firefight ensues, and Finn, Peter, and Michael slip out the back door. Out back in the alley, Yorkie and Andy are waiting for them, and fire on them, wounding them. Finn and Michael still manage to escape, but Peter, (whos legs are all shot up) is left behind. Yorkie and Peter take him prisoner. Meanwhile, Frank kills off all of the River Rats, except for Eamon, Polly, and Bunk, who escape. Frank, Yorkie, and Andy take the prisoner Peter back to Franks hideout, and begin interrogating him. Peter refuses to talk, so Frank says he needs to take those bullets out of his legs, (he starts torturing him). Peter passes out from the pain. 

New Scene: We see that the Westies are indeed starting to receive packages which have body parts of their leader, Tommy Toner. One of the thugs, (named Gerry) take the packages to Tommys wife, Brenda. She tells them not to get scared, its just Maginty trying to freak them out. 

Day 4, pgs. 19-22, (it's clearly after midnight here): New Scene: Over at Magintys place, Maginty is still having Napper French cut off pieces of Tommy Toner. He tells Napper to keep going... 

New Scene: Frank, Yorkie, and Andy start questioning Peter again. They quickly learn the cause of this Irish Gang war: An old Irish Gangster by the name of Nesbitt died, and left all of them a portion of 10 million dollars hidden away. The various sides are all fighting over the portions of the money. 

The issue ends with Frank warning Peter he better tell them everything he knows 

References: 

Pg. 19: Maginty says to Napper French, "I want six or seven packages goin' out today." For packages to go out "today", it has to be after midnight. 

Pg. 22: Frank says, "I've news for you: All I did was pull the bandages off. You screamed your head off and passed out straight away. That was 2 hours ago. Tell us everything. Unless you think you can handle some real pain." Going by the "2 hours ago" line, and Maginty's "today" line, I'd say it's after midnight. 

Also on Pg. 22: Frank says to Yorkie, I saw Toner lifted on forty-eighth street the day before you arrived. But that clashes with Yorkie's comments last issue where he says he arrived the day after the bomb went off, (because Tommy Toner was abducted the day after the bomb went off). My solution? Frank meant, "the day before I hooked up with you." Yorkie arrived in New York behind the scenes on Day 2 of this storyline, and met up with Frank in the early morning hours of Day 3. 

Punisher #10 
"Kitchen Irish Pt. 4" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Leandro Fernandez 


Appearances: The Punisher, Yorkie Mitchell, Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, Michael Morrison, Tommy Toner, Napper French, Billy, (Nappers grandson), Maginty, Andy Lorimer, (Yorkies partner), Eamon, Polly, Bunk, and Danni, (all are members of the River Rats), Brenda Toner, (Tommy Toners wife), Gerry, (one of Tommy and Brendas thugs). New Character: Old Man Nesbitt, (shown in flashback). 

Synopsis: Still DAY 4: Picks up right where we left off last issue. All present day events happen on the same day. 

Peter tells Frank all he knows: We learn Ol' Man Nesbitt was one of the original Westies, the old Irish gang that use to run Hell's Kitchen decades ago. He was thought to still have connections to hitmen, and to hoards of wealth, and thus he was feared and respected. But now he's dead, and he's left money in his will for all of the warring sides. The only way any of the sides get the 10 million is if they take pieces of code mailed to each side, and come together in truce, and use the code to find the money, and divide it up equally among them. But the warring sides would rather kill each other, steal the codes, and take the whole amount of money for themselves. 

We see in flashback that Ol' Man Nesbitt had a connection to all of the sides in this gang war. The flashback sequences are on the following pages/panels, (as Peter tells the story). 

Page 1, (panel 1 of 1): Ol' Man Nesbitt arrives at the door to the bar run by Tommy Toner, (it's the bar where the Westies hang out). This was "years ago" 

Page 2, (panel 2 of 4): A close up on Ol' Man Nesbitt as he enters the bar. This was "years ago"... 

Page 3, (panel 2 of 5): Finn Cooley, (before his face was damaged by a bomb) takes notice of Ol' Man Nesbitt entering the bar. This was "years ago"... 

Page 3, (panel 3 of 5): Tommy Toner and his group of Westies raise a toast to Ol' Man Nesbitt, who just flips them off in response. This was "years ago"... 

Page 3, (panel 4 of 5): A close up of Ol' Man Nesbitt standing over a very young Eamon and Polly, who are scared of the old man (we are told he's their great uncle). This was "years ago"... 

Page 4, (panel 3 of 4): We see Finn and Peter Cooley recieving a letter from where they are hiding out in Canada. The letter's from Ol' Man Nesbitt's lawyers, saying he passed away and left money to Finn. Finn's face is messed up here, this is after they've fled Ireland. This was "last year" as referenced on page 4. 

Page 5, (panel 2 of 4): We see Ol' Man Nesbitt lying on his deathbed, his lawyer the only person by his bedside. This was "last year" as referenced on page 4. 

Now back to the present day events: 

Punisher comes up with the plan for luring all of the sides together, to kill them all.... 

Brenda Toner goes to the Westies' hideout and rallies them, telling them not to be scared just because Tommy Toner's body parts are arriving in the mail. Just then, they get a phone call from someone claiming to be Maginty, (it's really the Punisher) telling them they'll trade back Tommy in exchange for the Westies' portion of the Code. They agree to meet out on an old antique aircraft carrier/musuem, out at the pier at New York Harbor at Midnight. 

As they Westies take off, we see Finn Cooley and Michael Morrison following them out to the airbase, (they've been staking out the Westies' base). 

Meanwhile, Maginty drags Napper's grandson Billy into the room where Napper is cutting up Tommy Toner, (to give Billy a scare). Billy runs away in tears, and Napper tries to run after him, but Maginty tells Napper he needs one more body part cut off of Tommy, then he'll let him and Billy go...Maginty has heard about the Westies going somewhere to meet someone, and wants to pay the Westies a visit. 

Meanwhile, the River Rats have also heard that the Westies are moving out, and set out to follow... 

Cut to a short time later. The Westies are the first to arrive at the antique aircraft carrier. As they start to spread out, Frank, Yorkie, and Andy open fire on them, cutting the gang to ribbons. The issue ends with Maginty sneaking up on Frank's hiding place along with some of his fellow thugs. 

References: This issue starts off shortly after midnight, then in the scene with Brenda rallying the troops, it's daylight outside, and then Punisher gets everyone to show up for this meeting at midnight. So the entire issue seems to be stretched out over a whole day. 

Page 4: Peter says that Ol' Man Nesbitt died, "Last year"... 

Page 10: Gerry says to Brenda Toner, "He said he grabbed Tommy on Forty-eighth street, three days ago." So the events of Punisher #7, pg. 12-22 happened three days ago. 

Pg. 15: Napper says to Maginty, "What kinda fuckin' monster are you?" Maginty replies, "That's rich, comin' from someone' been cuttin' a man to pieces for the last two days." 

pg. 17: As the Westies arrive, Yorkie notes it's 11:30, and that they're early. So it's not midnight yet. 

Punisher #11 
"Kitchen Irish Pt. 5" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Leandro Fernandez 


Appearances: The Punisher, Yorkie Mitchell, Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, Michael Morrison, Tommy Toner, Napper French, Maginty, Andy Lorimer, Eamon, Polly, Bunk, Brenda Toner, Gerry. 

Synopsis: Still DAY 4, (picks up right were we left off last issue): 

pg. 1-10: The gun battle continues. Punisher figures out Maginty is sneaking up on him, and turns around and fires, missing Maginty, but killing all of Maginty's men. Everyone starts fleeing the scene as the cops start to show up. Maginty tosses the severed head of Tommy Toner out in front of the remaining Westies, scaring many of them off. Maginty kills Gerry, (Brenda's right hand man). As Frank, Yorkie, and Andy get down to their escape boat, they run into the River Rats. They wound Eamon and kill Bunk. Brenda (herself wounded) falls into the bay, and gets fished out by Finn Cooley, who offers up a peace treaty between them. 

DAY 5: Pg. 11-22: Cut to a short time later. As the gun battle started last issue around 11:30, I'd say this is after midnight. 

Maginty heads back to the his hideout, and walks inside, only to be knocked out cold by Napper French. Napper straps Maginty into the same bed that he was cutting up Tommy Toner in earlier, and prepares to start cutting up Maginty. 

Meanwhile, Brenda, Finn, and Michael arrive back at the Westies' hideout, where they agree to share their portions of the code with each other. It's dawn in this scene. 

Meanwhile, all of the remaining River Rats abandon Polly and Eamon, leaving them to fend for themselves. It's dawn in this scene. 

Meanwhile, (lots of meanwhiles, right?) back at the Punisher's base, they get ready for the next round...Yorkie has a talk with the still helpless prisoner Peter, and Punisher reloads all his weapons. 

That's how the issue ends. 

References: 

None, really... 

Side Commentary: Garth Ennis devotes 4 whole pages to just Yorkie (the British soldier) and Peter, (the Irish terrorist) talking about who's side is right and who's side is wrong. C'mon, Ennis, get it out of your system! It's fascinating political/social commentary, but really serves no purpose here than to drag this story out! As you can imagine, this issue feels padded out, just to fit into the whole "6 issue = Trade Paper Back" format... 

Punisher #12 
"Kitchen Irish Pt. 6" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Leandro Fernandez 


Appearances: The Punisher, Yorkie Mitchell, Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, Michael Morrison, Tommy Toner, Napper French, Maginty, Andy Lorimer, Eamon, Polly, Brenda Toner 

Synopsis: Still DAY 5. All events of this issue happen on the same day: 

Maginty wakes up to find himself tied to the bed. Napper French starts cutting off a couple of Maginty's fingers, when the last two of Maginty's remaining thugs burst in and kill Napper. They untie Maginty and Maginty decides it's time to call a truce. He heads out to the Westies hideout, where they meet up with Brenda, Michael, and Finn. Eamon and Polly arrive a short time later, and they all declare truce and give up their sides of the code. They get the coordinates to the money that Ol' Man Nesbitt hid away for them, and take off for it. 

The money is located in an old rusted tanker sitting in New York harbor. Frank, Yorkie, and Andy follow them out there. As they get inside, Punisher and company launch their attack. Michael and Eamon are killed. Frank is wounded by a shrapnel grenade tossed by Finn, and Yorkie has to rescue Frank. Maginty, Finn, Brenda, and Polly all make it into the lower part of the old tanker and find a treasure chest. They open it up and find not money, but a bomb waiting for them. It seems Ol' Man Nesbitt wanted to play one last cruel prank on them. The tanker explodes, knocking Frank and Yorkie into the water. Andy pulls them out, and they leave before the cops arrive. 

Later on, as they're driving out to the Airport, they pull over to the side of the road. Andy pulls out Peter from the trunk, takes him into a back alley and kills him, (avenging the death of his father, who was killed by Peter in Ireland). Frank tells Yorkie thanks for saving him back at the tanker, but not to come back to New York anytime soon, (Frank doesn't like team-ups). Frank gets out of the car and walks home. Andy gets back in and they drive off to the airport, heading home to England. 

The End. 

References: None really. 

Personal comments, (I've come this far, let me have my fun): Ennis blew it in killing off Napper French, just so Maginty could join the others in the final scene, for a surprise bomb blast I saw coming a mile away. Much more interesting would've been an eventual confrontation between Frank and Napper. Napper got wrapped up in this plot doing dirty work for Maginty to save his grandson. Would that warrant a bullet from the Punisher? Now that's an interesting plot that unfortunately didn't get explored. And just what happened to Napper's grandson anyway? He ran out of the room when he saw that his granddad was cutting up Tommy Toner, but we never see him again...why didn't Napper go after him? Did he get free? Is young Billy still locked up at Maginty's place? Cause all the bad guys are dead, and Frank doesn't even know about Napper and Billy's plot thread, to go rescue young Billy, if he is still locked up there... 

That's it for now. Next up on the agenda is Hulk/Thing: Hard Knocks. And then Amazing Fantasy #1-6. I should get a little more caught up over the Christmas break.
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 21 Dec 2004 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 20 Dec 2004 08:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Kevin. Thanks for the review. 

I want to make sure I have the passage of days correct here... 

DAY 1 
PUN7 7 (1-11) 

DAY 2 
PUN7 7 (12-22) 

DAY 3 
PUN7 8 
PUN7 9 (1-?) 

DAY 4 
PUN7 9 (?-22) 
PUN7 10 
PUN7 11 (1-10) 

DAY 5 
PUN7 11 (11-22) 
PUN7 12 


One question about a reference in PUN7 10: 
Quote: 
Page 10: Gerry says to Brenda Toner, "He said he grabbed Tommy on Forty-eighth street, three days ago." So the events of Punisher #7, pg. 12-22 happened three days ago.  


You have this on Day 4 and PUN7 7 (12-22) on Day 2, so that's only two days difference.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2004 12:30 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Sorry about that, the break between days your looking for comes between pgs. 18-19 (22 pages) of Punisher #9. I've added the page breaks to the analysis above. 


Quote: 
>>>
One question about a reference in PUN7 10: 
Quote: 
>>>
Page 10: Gerry says to Brenda Toner, "He said he grabbed Tommy on Forty-eighth street, three days ago." So the events of Punisher #7, pg. 12-22 happened three days ago.  
<<<

You have this on Day 4 and PUN7 7 (12-22) on Day 2, so that's only two days difference. 
<<<

Well, @#$^%.....and here I thought I had managed to find a way to make every reference work, (not realizing I was off by one day with that reference...)...well, give me a short while to ponder this mess, and I'll see what I can propose, (if you have any solutions, feel free to offer). 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Dec 2004 01:01 am  
By Kevin W.
Director

Hmmm...well, the easiest solution would be to put another day passing between the events of PUN7 7 (12-22) and PUN7 8. 

Napper French doesn't star cutting up Tommy Toner's body until the opening pages of PUN7 8, (which would make Maginty's reference of "two days" in PUN7 10 work). 

However, that would mess with the Punisher's comments to Yorkie in Issue #9, about Tommy Toner being kidnapped "the day before you arrived". (Yorkie's comments about arriving in NYC "the day after the bomb went off" I still atribute to happening behind the scenes, and Punisher meant his meeting up with Yorkie). 

Still pondering...
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Dec 2004 01:36 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I think I've got it! I've revised how I've broken down issues 7 and 8. 

The simplified version is as follows: 

DAY 1 
PUN7 7 (1-11): The bomb goes off. Frank survives the explosion. 

Day 2 
PUN7 7, (12-15): Clearly the next day. Finn, Michael, and Peter discuss the ramifications of having let a bomb off in NYC. 

Same day, (16-18): Could possibly be sunset outside, (the light in the sky is wierd). Frank sees Tommy Toner abducted by Maginty's men. 

Day 3 
PUN7, (19-22): Maginty kidnaps young Billy, and blackmails Napper French (Billy's granddad) into working for him. 

Same day, in the evening/night hours, (PUN8, pgs. 1-19): Punisher meets up with Yorkie Mitchell and Andy Lorimer. Maginty puts Napper to work cutting up Tommy Toner. The River Rats play pirates with a yacht in New York Harbor, (it's sunset in this scene). 

Day 4 
PUN8, pgs. 20-23: Now we're on the next night, (not the same night as earlier in the issue). Punisher confronts Finn, Michael, and Peter in an Irish bar. 

Same night, 
Pun7 9, pgs. 1-18: Frank gets into a gunfight with the River Rats, who enter the bar. Finn and Michael escape, but Peter is captured by Yorkie and Andy. 

Day 5 
PUN7 9, pgs 19-22: Maginty tells Napper to continue cutting up Tommy. He says he wants 6 or 7 packages of body parts going out in the mail "today", which puts it after midnight. Frank interrogates the now awake Peter. 

Same day: 
PUN7 10 (now the reference of Napper cutting up Tommy for the last "2 days" works, AND the reference to Tommy being kidnapped 3 days ago works). 
PUN7 11 (1-10) 

Day 6 
PUN7 11 (11-22) 
PUN7 12 

I think that'll do it...what do you think?
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Thread 55

Posted: 21 Dec 2004 08:34 pm    Post subject: Captain America's Weid Tales#74
By Enda80

Charon in Captain America's Weird Tales#74; I found a scan of this story 
This is an odd story. 

In it, the Red Skull, in the lower region, manages to write Captain 
America's name in the "fatal book"-the book in which one finds the 
names of those who will be damned. Captain America is taken, at 
midnight, to the river Styx, and Charon introduces himself. Charon 
ferrys Captain America to appear before the "Master Judge of the 
Lower Depths". The Red Skull appears, explains what he did. 
The "Master Judge" states that the two will battle. Captain America 
and the Red Skull battle (the latter armed with the Grim Reaper's 
scythe), but Cap manages to defeat the Skull. The Skull falls, with 
Cap grabbing onto him, only to rip off a piece of cloth from the 
Skull's shirt. The "Master Judge" returns Cap to Earth. Cap at first 
thinks it was a dream....but finds he still has the piece of cloth 
from the Skull's shirt in his hand. 

(By the way, according to Pauline theology, one only goes to Hell if one dies in one's sins without believing in the resurrection (per Gospel of John theology, the divinity of Jesus. Salvation is based on faith alone. Muslims, on the other hand, believe you go to Heaven by following the law.)

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Posted: 21 Dec 2004 11:16 pm    
By John Simons

This actually sounds pretty interesting. Are these scans online somewhere? 

My knowledge of Golden Age comics is slim. Would this be Steve Rogers we're talking about here, or one of the replacements who took over after he disappeared?
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"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Thread 56

Posted: 26 Dec 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk/Thing: Hard Knocks #1-4
By Kevin W.
Director


Okay, here's the chronology review for Hulk/Thing: Hard Knocks #1-4. This is Bruce Jones last work on the Hulk as a character, and frankly, it has nothing to do with the "Secret Conspiracy" storyline which was running through the books. Much like the Hulk/Wolverine: Six Hours miniseries, this story pokes fun at the rivalry between the two title characters. But it doesn't achieve much more than that. 

Hulk/Thing: Hard Knocks #1-4 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Drawn by Jae Lee 

Appearances: In Present Day: Hulk, Thing, 

In Flashback: Hulk, Thing, Gen. Ross, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Human Torch, Dr. Doom, Karl Kort, (the Wrecker), Rick Jones 

Synopsis: All 4 issues happen on the same day, (probably over a few hours in the afternoon). The entire plot revolves around the Thing finding Banner in a run down cafe' in the middle of the desert. Everyone of the patrons inside the cafe' flee, leaving just the two title characters. Grimm gets Banner to change into the Hulk, and then the Hulk and Thing sit around, thinking about their history together, and ribbing each other on who's the tougher monster. The U.S. military shows up, (having tracked Banner down as well) and the Hulk accuses Grimm of setting him up, but Grimm says that when he heard the military had tracked down Banner, he asked the military to let him try to talk to Hulk into peacefully surrendering first. But the Hulk kicks the army's butt, and all the soldiers flee, and Hulk and Thing go back to sitting around inside the bar, bragging about who's the toughest between them. And that's how it ends... 

Now if the 4 issues were just the two of them yakking, this would be simple. But as they sit around yakking it up for the 4 issues, the story occasionally flashes back to early moments in Fantastic Four/Hulk history, specifically to Fantastic Four #5 and #12. Much like with the Hulk: Gray miniseries, I'm not certain just how well these flashbacks are in sync with the original issues. Though the events are pretty much the same, I'm pretty certain that the dialog doesn't match very well. But maybe we can chalk that up to the two seeing things through the lens of their own selective memory, (the story seems to back that up as well). I'll just flesh out exactly what happens in each of these flashbacks, and we'll go from there... 

References: 

First, I'll note that there's some discrepencies in how Hulk is being depicted here...throughout the entire run of Bruce Jones' Hulk, the Hulk was either a speechless savage, (as seen in the early Jones' issues) or the Hulk had Banner's personality. Banner gained control over the Hulk, (as seen in the later Jones' issues). This miniseries starts out with Banner in control of the Hulk. In issue 1, (page 6), as Thing causes Banner to change into the Hulk, Hulk says in regards to himself, "Don't push it, Grimm...he's on a short leash." Which would indicate to me Banner's in control of the Hulk body. But later on, in Issue 2, page 14, (and again in Issue 4), when Grimm makes comments to Banner and the Hulk being one and the same, the Hulk gets angry and yells, "I am NOT Banner!" Which sounds an awful lot like Classic Stupid Hulk. Yet the Hulk is talking pretty intelligently here throughout the miniseries. Grimm makes a wisecrack in Issue 2 about all of Hulk's personalities merging together. Or maybe, all of the other Hulk personalities, (which Banner had kept repressed during Jones' run on the book) are emerging again. This could be a good excuse to explain how we end up with Classic Stupid Hulk in Avengers #74-75, (which I believe we still want to have happen after the Secret Conspiracy storyline ends). What will really be the clincher is which Hulk is on display when Peter David returns to the book in January's Hulk #76. 

Issue 1, pg. 6: As Grimm begins the first of his flashback stories, (to the events of Fantastic Four #5) he says, "Little story from fifteen years ago..." So FF #5 supposedly happened 15 years ago. 

Issue 1, pg. 7-9: FB- In this flashback, we see a classic scene from FF #5. The Thing, Human Torch, and Mr. Fantastic return to the present day in Doom's Time Travel machine. They give Doom Blackbeard's treasure, only for it to turn out to be a treasure chest full of chains. Thing proceeds to kick Dr. Doom's butt, only to discover it's a Doombot he just smashed up. 

Issue 1, pg. 13-14: FB- Continues from where we left off last flashback. The real Dr. Doom appears on a monitor screen and taunts the Fantastic Four, taking particular joy in calling the Thing a freak. He then begins to pump all the air outta the room... 

Issue 2, pg. 7, panels 2-3, (of 3), all of pg. 8, and pg. 9, panel #3, (of 5) all have the next part of the flashback: Invisible Girl gets air back into the chamber, and manages to free her teammates. Then, to escape Doom's castle, Reed stretches out from a barred window across Castle Doom's moat, and yanks off the barred window. Then the Human Torch burns away the moat and turns the bottom into glass, and Grimm carries Sue across the moat to safety. Doom just taunts Grimm over the sound system. I'm not sure how well this matches up with FF #5. 

Issue 2, pgs. 11-12: FB-Now we move onto Grimm's next story. The story about how the FF first met the Hulk in FF #12. We see a scene of Gen. Ross showing pictures of the Hulk to the Fantastic Four. The Four have agreed to help capture the Hulk. Grimm gets a little testy with Gen. Ross, thinking that Ross feels Grimm is a monster, but Reed and Sue get Ben to calm down. 

Issue 2, pgs. 16, (panels 5-6 of 6) to pg. 17, (panels 1-4 of 6): Bruce Banner, Karl Kort, (the Wrecker) and Rick Jones all enter the meeting that Gen. Ross is having with the Fantastic Four. Banner tells Ross that it's probably not the Hulk who has been destroying the military equipment, and that he suspects it was sabotage, (being done by the Wrecker). Gen. Ross orders Mr. Fantastic and Banner to team up and find the Hulk... 

Issue 2, pgs. 18, (panels 2-4 of 4) to pg. 20: In Hulk's version of the story, the Hulk encounters the FF down in the tunnels below the base, and the Hulk mops the floor with all of them. But Hulk later admits this version of events isn't exactly how it happened... 

Issue 3, pg. 5, (panel 2-4 of 4) to pg. 9: Hulk revises the story of their first battle a little bit. In this version, upon encountering the FF in the tunnel, Hulk started to pummel the Thing. The Human Torch comes along to aid Grimm, but Hulk knocks him away. Hulk then tunnels up to the surface, and has to deal with Mr. Fantastic, shaking Reed off of him. The Thing heads up to the surface as well, and the Hulk and the Thing start to clash... 

Issue 3, all of pg. 11, panels 3 and 4 (of 4) on pg. 12: The Thing chimes in, refreshing Hulk's memory. An energy blast from the Wrecker's "Atom Ray" knocks the Hulk and the Thing out temporarily, thus the two titans don't clash. The Thing wakes up first, only to find the Wrecker's robot attacking. The Thing destroys the robot. 

Issue 3, pg 13, panels 3-5, (of 5): Hulk recalls what he remembers next. He remembers waking up to find everyone gone, (they went off dealing with the Wrecker's robot presumeably). Hulk leaps off, saying he'll finish off the Thing the next time he sees him. 

Issue 3, pg. 16, panels 3-5, (of 5): Thing tells what happens next. The FF captured the Wrecker, and rescued Rick Jones, (there's a panel of him all tied up in a chair). Ben is in the background, depressed and thinking he didn't do his part for the team... 

Issue 3, pgs. 17-22: PLEASE NOTE: The rest of this issue is, (I believe) completely NEW MATERIAL, not just a reinterpretation of the events of FF #12! The Flashback is as follows: Thing relates how after a job well done, the Fantastic Four decided to take a vacation. Grimm says, "That night" they traveled to a "South Seas" resort to relax. The Thing is depressed that night, thinking he didn't help out as well as he could have in the battle with the Hulk and the Wrecker, and he remembers Doom's taunting words from FF#5. Grimm gets angry and goes on a rampage, bursting out of the resort and dashing off. In his own words, "Had what I found out later was called a partial 'psychotic break'...what I call my 'Ben around the Bend' period...don't know how many weeks I wandered on my own...don't know how far I wandered...only that I couldn't get that thought outta my mind..." (the thought being Doom calling him a freak and a monster). 

The issue ends with the Thing returning to the Southwestern USA desert, and encountering the Hulk wandering through the desert. They appear ready to battle again. So according to the Thing, after the events of FF #12, he wandered around for "weeks" on his own, in the grips of a nervous breakdown... 

Issue 4, pgs. 1-4: The flashback continues right where it left off last issue. The Thing, (angry and wanting to lash out at something) attacks the Hulk, who's wandering around the desert. Grimm notes that the Hulk is still feeling weak from the effects of the Wrecker's Ray, and that's the only reason the Thing is able to beat the Hulk. Which is exactly what happens. The Thing knocks Hulk unconsious. 

Issue 4, pgs. 6-8: The Thing is about to continue pummeling the unconsious Hulk, when all of a sudden the Hulk reverts to Bruce Banner before the Thing's eyes. This snaps the Thing out of his rage. He picks up Banner and examines him, and comes to the conclusion: "That was the moment I learned a great truth...inside, I was still human, still a man...still Ben Grimm." So Grimm let's Banner go, and just walks away. That's the end of the new material in flashback. But if it's to be believed, then Grimm knew that the Hulk and Banner were the same person long before the rest of the Marvel universe found out! (besides Rick Jones that is)... 

That's all of the flashbacks. The rest of issue 4 shows the Hulk fighting the army, and after the army flees, the Thing and the Hulk continue sitting around the ruins of the cafe' and yakking it up...that's how it ends. 

The End. 

Next up on my review "to do" list: Amazing Fantasy #1-6!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 26 Dec 2004 10:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Or maybe, all of the other Hulk personalities, (which Banner had kept repressed during Jones' run on the book) are emerging again. This could be a good excuse to explain how we end up with Classic Stupid Hulk in Avengers #74-75, (which I believe we still want to have happen after the Secret Conspiracy storyline ends).  
<<<

Hey, Kevin. Yes, we do have the "Search for She-Hulk" storyline occurring after H3 75. Are you suggesting (at least for now) that H/T:HK 1-4 be placed between H3 75 and A3 72? If that's the case, the Thing may end up here before FF3 68, the beginning of the Latveria storyline that results in Ben's "death." (I tentatively have A3 72-76 occurring during the period that Ben is dead.)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Dec 2004 02:02 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. If that puts the Thing's appearance here way back before the whole start of FF3 68, I'm okay with that. The Bruce Jones' storylines in Hulk have been running at such a slow pace that it is concievable that not much time has passed, and that the Jones' issues are happening months prior to current Marvel events. Add on top of that that we still have to account for a rationale reason for Stupid Hulk to show up in Avengers, (which was published a year ago now), and this placement works for me. 

But we're really just waiting to see what direction Marvel wants to head in with the Hulk's personality...Peter David is taking over the Hulk title again in January, and the Hulk is scheduled to appear in a new Defenders miniseries next year...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 26 Dec 2004 04:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin, can you fill in the blanks on this breakdown of the original flashback material? 

H/T:HK 3-FB (17-?) 
The same day as the end of FF 12. The entire FF appear here and are the only characters in the flashback. Do they appear in costume or in civilian dress? 

H/T:HK 3-FB (?-22) 
One day, "weeks" after H/T:HK 3-FB (17-?). Thing and Hulk (and no one else) appear. 

H/T:HK 4-FB (1-4, 6-8) 
The same day as H/T:HK 3-FB (?-22). Thing and Hulk (and no one else) appear. 

Any other temporal references in the flashbacks? It's probably September of Peter Parker's junior year of high school here. 

It would appear that character chronologies would be modified as follows: 

HULK 
FF 12 
**H/T:HK 3-FB 
**H/T:HK 4-FB 
H 6 

HUMAN TORCH II 
FF 12 
**H/T:HK 3-FB 
ST 108 

INVISIBLE WOMAN 
FF 12 
**H/T:HK 3-FB 
FF 13 

MISTER FANTASTIC 
FF 12 
**H/T:HK 3-FB 
FF 13 

THING 
FF 12 
**H/T:HK 3-FB 
**H/T:HK 4-FB 
FF 13 


Thanks, Kevin.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 02:43 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Here's the answers you requested, Paul: 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
H/T:HK 3-FB (17-?) 
The same day as the end of FF 12. The entire FF appear here and are the only characters in the flashback. Do they appear in costume or in civilian dress? 
<<<

H/T:HK 3-FB, (17-20) 

They appear in civilian dress. They're on vacation, after all!  


Quote: 
>>>
H/T:HK 3-FB (?-22) 
One day, "weeks" after H/T:HK 3-FB (17-?). Thing and Hulk (and no one else) appear. 
<<<

H/T:HK 3-FB (21-22) 

And yes, no one else appears here. 


Quote: 
>>>
H/T:HK 4-FB (1-4, 6-8) 
The same day as H/T:HK 3-FB (?-22). Thing and Hulk (and no one else) appear. 
<<<
 
The same day as H/T:HK 3-FB (21-22). 


Quote: 
>>>
Any other temporal references in the flashbacks? It's probably September of Peter Parker's junior year of high school here. 
<<<

None, really...just that the Thing wandered around for "weeks". But the "South Seas" resort looks like what a tropical island would look like, and the scene between Thing and Hulk in the desert looks like typical hot desert climate. Ah, but wait! There is a full moon in the sky in the pages with the Thing at the "South Seas" resort... 


Quote: 
>>>
Thanks, Kevin. 
<<<

No problem, Paul.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 57

Posted: 28 Dec 2004 12:38 pm    Post subject: Emma Frost #13-18
By Paul O'Brien
Director

BLOOM 
EMMA FROST #13-18 

General comments: 
It's "eight years ago". Which is significant, because arc 1 was "ten years ago" (though it covered several months) and arc 2 was "nine years ago." So, at least in broad terms, we're moving forward by a year every six months. Moreover, that also means that there's a lengthy gap of many months between issues #12-13. Issue #12 ended with Emma getting on a bus to New York, while issue #13 begins with Emma starting university. Emma never tells us what she's been doing during this time (though she seems remarkably behind the times when it comes to news coverage of mutants) - it may be that her period living on the streets in GENERATION X fits in here, when she first came to New York. 

However, Emma's telepathic skills are still rudimentary when this story begins, and their development is a key plot point. So stories like GENERATION X #-1, where she's displaying fairly high levels of skill, can't fit into that gap. 

The art shifts through summer to autumn as the story progresses. It's also, obviously, the first term of a new academic year. 

Synopsis: 
* EMMA FROST #13, pages 1-7. "Eight years ago." Emma Frost arrives to study at Empire State University. She meets obnoxious jock Max Devreaux, and her roommate Christie McDermott, who is just moving in - it's obviously the day before the first day of term. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Max Devreaux, Christie McDermott, Dean Irvine 

* EMMA FROST #13, pages 8-18. "The next day." Emma begins attending lectures on accountancy. She's majoring in education with a minor in business studies. Max asks her to come to that night's basketball game, where he's playing. She tells him to get lost, but later Christie talks Emma into going. Emma and Christie go to the game. Emma is bored to death - she's just not interested in sports. Near the end of the game, Emma's powers go out of control and she has a panic attack. (Later issues establish that this is Astrid softening Emma up.) 

Characters: Emma Frost, Max Devreaux, Christie McDermott, Astrid Bloom (bts) 

* EMMA FROST #13, pages 19-22. A week later. Emma is still holed up in her room, refusing to go out until she can get her powers under control. Christie has been bringing her food "every day for the past week." Christie's academic mentor drops by; it's Emma's old teacher, Ian Kendall. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Christie McDermott, Ian Kendall 

* EMMA FROST #14, pages 1-5. Direct continuation. Christie leaves Emma and Ian alone to catch up. Emma apologises for getting him fired. Ian doesn't mind - he prefers his new job. Ian persuades Emma to go back to classes, and tells her to "stop by my office early next week" so they can talk about it. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Christie McDermott, Ian Kendall 

* EMMA FROST #14, pages 6-20. "The next day." Emma heads off to classes and finds the students (including Max) engaged in an anti-mutant protest. According to Max, "some star athlete in California was revealed to be a mutant." This doesn't seem to be a reference to any story in particular. Chronology gets a bit garbled here; the X-Men were active back in issue #6, which was around a year and a half ago on the book's internal timeline, if we're being generous. (We saw them on TV.) Max says that mutants have "been popping up for the last year or so", which is reasonably consistent with that. However, Emma doesn't seem to know anything about them. Even Max seems surprised by that; he asks her whether she watches the news, and she says no. (Perhaps this is because she's been off appearing in oddball Generation X flashbacks and living on the streets during this period.) Anyhow, Max explains what a mutant is, and Emma finally realises that she might be a mutant. Max tries again to ask Emma out, but she runs off to class, where she gets involved in a debate about mutant rights. 

Later, Christie tells Emma that Max has invited them both to a party "tonight". Emma agrees to go. The party is disrupted when rival basketball players attack - Max's team broke their winning streak, and they've got it into their heads that one of them might be a mutant. A fight breaks out. Emma telepathically summons the campus police to break it up. Afterwards, Christie reveals that she is prejudiced against mutants as well. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Max Devreaux, Christie McDermott. 

* EMMA FROST #14, pages 21-22. "The next day." Distressed by the anti-mutant sentiment, Emma decides to talk to Ian about it. She goes to his office, just in time to see him welcoming Christie in. Moments later, Astrid Bloom approaches Emma. Astrid is another mutant telepath studying at ESU. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Christie McDermott, Ian Kendall, Astrid Bloom 

* EMMA FROST #15, pages 1-13. Direct continuation. Astrid takes Emma on a tour of the city and lectures her, at tremendous length, about the possibilities of telepathic powers. Astrid is far more skilled with her powers, and Emma finds that she cannot read Astrid's mind. Nonetheless, they bond. This scene also includes Astrid's own account of her origin, in a multi-year flashback spanning pages 10-12. Basically, Astrid claims that her father died, and her mother ignored her after remarrying and having another child. When she gained telepathic powers, she told her family and was thrown out. Much of this account is discredited later in the arc and the whole thing is best regarded as dodgy. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Astrid Bloom. 

* EMMA FROST #15, pages 14-22. Next day. 1am; Emma returns home from her day with Astrid. No sign of Christie. Emma goes to sleep. In the morning, Emma resumes her lectures. Max asks her out again (and, again, gets nowhere). Astrid gives Emma another tutorial on telepathy. 7pm; Emma returns to her room and finds Christie there. Emma asks Christie where she was last night. Christie dodges the question, but with her newly taught skills, Emma can see that Christie spent the night with Ian. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Max Devreaux, Astrid Bloom, Christie McDermott, Dean Irvine 

* EMMA FROST #16, pages 1-3. Direct continuation. Emma presses Christie about where she spent the night. Christie lies about it, and Emma decides that Christie has betrayed her. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Christie McDermott. 

* EMMA FROST #16, pages 4-9. Presumably the next day. Emma tells Astrid about Christie and Ian. Astrid regards the whole thing as irrelevant, and resumes teaching Emma about telepathy. Emma has another panic attack (under Astrid's influence, as revealed later on in the arc), and overcomes it by focussing on a diamond motif. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Astrid Bloom. 

* EMMA FROST #16, page 14 panels 1-3. A flashback montage of Ian and Christie spending time together. 

Characters: Ian Kendall, Christie McDermott 

* EMMA FROST #16, pages 10-12. "Two days later." After a lecture, Max asks Emma out again. Astrid persuades Emma to accept. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Astrid Bloom, Max Devreux. 

* EMMA FROST #16, pages 13-20. "The following evening." Emma goes on her date with Max, which turns out surprisingly well. At the end of the night Max turns violent and tries to force himself on her. (Again, he's under Astrid's influence, but we don't learn that until later on.) Emma tries to fend Max off, but her powers are ineffective (because Emma can't beat Astrid). Other students subdue Max, and the campus police cart him away. Astrid comforts Emma. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Christie McDermott, Max Devreux, Astrid Bloom. 

* EMMA FROST #16, pages 21-22. "The next day." Ian visits Emma to see if she is okay. Emma asks him whether he is seeing Christie. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall 

* EMMA FROST #17, pages 1-4. Direct continuation. Ian says that he has been seeing Christie for "nearly two weeks." Emma presses him on his feelings for her, and he becomes evasive. They kiss. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall 

* EMMA FROST #17, pages 5-7. "The following morning." Emma happily tells Astrid that she kissed Ian. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Astrid Bloom 

* EMMA FROST #17, pages 8-10. "Later." Emma's changed clothes, so it's unlikely to be the same day. Emma returns to her room to find Christie waiting. Ian has told Christie what happened, and she's not pleased. They agree that they can't share a room any more. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Christie McDermott. 

* EMMA FROST #17, pages 11-13. Some time later. Astrid moves into Emma's room, as Christie's replacement. Astrid suggests that Emma may have been subconsciously manipulating people's minds to get what she wants. Emma is unsettled by the idea. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Astrid Bloom 

* EMMA FROST #17, page 14. Montage of Emma going about her business as the idea continues to play on her mind. 

Characters: Emma Frost 

* EMMA FROST #17, pages 15-22. "A week later." Full moon. Emma and Ian go for a walk in Central Park. Emma tries to press Ian for details on why he chose her over Christie, but doesn't get a satisfactory answer. A mugger attacks, and Emma telepathically fends him off. Ian is naturally baffled. Christie phones Ian and asks him to meet her urgently. He complies. Christie threatens to report Ian to the university unless he breaks up with Emma. Ian turns round and throttles her (under Astrid's mental control), but almost immediately breaks his grip. Startled, Christie runs off to report Ian to the authorities. Astrid watches with satisfaction. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Christie McDermott, Astrid Bloom 

* EMMA FROST #18. Next day. Ian is suspended following Christie's complaints, and a hearing is set for late afternoon. Emma reads his mind and finds that he has no memory of the key events. Emma approaches Christie and surreptitiously reads her memory, which of course confirms her story. Emma realises that Astrid was controlling Ian, and confronts her. Astrid claims that she was acting in Emma's best interests, by getting rid of people who might distract her (in other words, undermine Astrid's influence). To stop Emma interfering in Ian's disciplinary hearing, Astrid temporarily absorbs Emma's mind into her own psyche, intending to release her afterwards. However, although Emma is much less experienced that Astrid, she has far more raw power. Now that she is inside Astrid's mind, Emma is able to copy all of Astrid's telepathic skill for herself. She then easily defeats Astrid. Emma also learns that Astrid actually killed her parents by mind-controlling her younger sister [in a one-panel flashback where Astrid herself does not actually appear]. 

Using her increased power, Emma takes telepathic control of Christie during Ian's disciplinary hearing, and acts like a stalker. Christie is carted off to hospital with a suspected nervous breakdown, and Ian is cleared. Later, Emma tells Ian what happened. Ian is appalled and walks off in disgust. Emma stalks off, sulking about the inadequacy of the human race. End of series. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Christie McDermott, Astrid Bloom
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2004 01:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It's "eight years ago".  
<<<

Of course, like most long-term temporal references, this will need to be declared topical, although it is useful for marking the passage of time within the series, as noted. Heck, this "eight years ago" reference is even inconsistent with a reference in Hulk/Thing: Hard Knocks that FF 5 occurred "fifteen years ago." If both references were consistent, then EF 13-18 would occur seven years after FF 5, and that pushes us past Emma's entry into the Hellfire Club. 

For those of you interested in Olshevsky's calendar...based on Paul's description, it appears that EF 13-18 occurs during the fall of Peter Parker's sophomore year of college -- the same fall in which UX 54-66 occurred. For me, that translates to "Year 5," tentatively 17 years before the present. 

Thanks for this analysis, Paul.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 58

Posted: 02 Dec 2004 06:06 pm    Post subject: "The Foreigner" and "Silver Sable" on fi
By John Omohundro

Just asking: 

If either or both characters were ever to appear in a SPIDER-MAN feature film, who do you think would be the best actor for the role of "The Foreigner" and the best actress for the role of "Silver Sable" ? 

--John Omohundro

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 08:32 am    
By JLH

Mandy Patikin and Betty White.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 09:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

Which one would play which? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 09:44 am    
By JLH


Mandy would play both. Betty would be his stunt double.

			*	*	*

Thread 59

Posted: 04 Dec 2004 09:56 am    Post subject: Chronology Project Updates?
By clippertonenet

There seems to have been a number of new comics added to the chronology project in recent months, but is there a timeline for including corrections that were made on the posting board in the chronology? Or are corrections mostly ignored in favor of posting new comics.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Dec 2004 12:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I wouldn't go so far as to say we ignore them, but rather that the emphasis shifts from time to time. I go through stages, where I'll concentrate on new comics in my collection for a while, then move to issue analyses posted in the forum, then to observations and discussions in the main forum, then to closing the first Gap, then eventually I'll work my way back to some new comics. 

I can't concentrate on more than one thing at a time. Or rather, I could, but I'd screw it up. But no there's no timeline. I'll be closing books in the first Gap, at the rate of 50-140 a week, until I get tired of it. 

Thanks for noticing the progress we've been making in recent months. We've added approximately 1,000 books so far this year, far exceeding previous years. 


watching: michigan v. notre dame

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Thread 60

Posted: 05 Dec 2004 06:40 pm    Post subject: Kang question
By Enda80

HERO OF THE DAY 
Appearances: The Incredible Hulk I#286 (August, 1983) 

How much do we know about the 41st century he rules? Captain America Annual#11 shows that Kang arrived in 4000 AD (interesting that Kang uses the AD/BC system) and then conquered Earth. Thor Annual#17 has him saying "Soon I became the dominant power in the million worlds of the Milky Way Galaxy". We see a picture of Kang with a Shi'ar and Skrull prisoner, as well as three other prisoners I could not identify. Other than that story in Hulk#286 with Hero of the Day, has much else been revealed about this 41st century? 

Anyone hazzard to guess if it is a possible future for Other-Earth?

			*	*	*

Thread 61

Posted: 06 Dec 2004 07:23 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: December 6
By ADMINISTRATOR

These books ship from Diamond this week. I'll be picking up the starred ones. 

District X #8 
Doctor Spectrum #4 
*Emma Frost #18 
Hulk & Thing: Hard Knocks #4 
Marvel Age Hulk #4 
*Marvel Knights 4 #13 
*Marvel Knights Spider-Man #9 
Nightcrawler #3 
Powers #7 
*She-Hulk #10 
*Spectacular Spider-Man #22 
Punisher #15 
*Thor Son of Asgard #11 
X-Men Fantastic Four #1 
X-Men The End Book 1 Dreamers & Demons #6 
*X-Men Unlimited #6 

and sundry reprints 


watching: cops

			*	*	*

Thread 62

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 03:03 pm    Post subject: Holiday stories?
By jephyork 
Director

Does anyone know if a list exists of all Marvel comics with holiday (Christmas/Hanukkah/Solstice/winter)-themed stories? 

I'm trying to pull all the books I own and have them lying around the house for Thanksgiving/Christmas guests to flip through. Right now I've got: 

Marvel Holiday Specials: #1 (1991), 1992 (Jan.'93), 1993 (Jan.'94), 1994, 1996, 2004 (coming out this Wed.) 
Marvel Two-in-One #8 
Spider-Man Holiday Special (1995) 
Uncanny X-Men #98, 143, 341, 365 
X-Men #109 
TransFormers [Marvel UK] #41, 93, 145, 198 
Marvel Treasury Edition #13 

But I know there's more. Can anyone help? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 03:52 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Offhand, I can think of the following issues. (Christmas themed unless otherwise noted.) 

Amazing Spider-Man #314 
Fantastic Four #133 (New Year's) 
Fantastic Four #325 
Fantastic Four #361 
Fantastic Four, v2 #4 (variant cover only) 
Fantastic Four, v3 #3 (New Year's) 
Iron Man, v2 #4 (variant cover only) 
Marvel Team-Up #1 
Marvel Two-in-One #74 
Captain America #292 
Captain America, v3 #50 
Vision & Scarlet Witch #6 (Thanksgiving) 
Vision & Scarlet Witch #7 
Marvel Treasury Edition #8 and all the stories it reprints... 

Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD #10 
Amazing Spider-Man #24 
Hero for Hire #7 
Incredible Hulk #147 
Dr. Strange #180


Some are more themed than others, obviously, and a lot have only the barest mention of a holiday, but there ya go! There's also an Iron Man arc from about two years ago that ocurred around Christmas, but I couldn't give you issue numbers offhand.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 04:08 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks, Sean! 

Any more, anyone? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 04:43 pm    
By Arthur
Director

More X-mas themes.... 

Howard the Duck Holiday Special 
Generation-X Holiday Special 
Punisher Holiday Special 1993, 1994, 1995 
Sleepwalker Holiday Special

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Nov 2004 06:59 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There's also a Christmas-themed issue of Bizarre Adventures (#32?). 

-Sean

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Posted: 22 Nov 2004 09:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
There's also an Iron Man arc from about two years ago that ocurred around Christmas, but I couldn't give you issue numbers offhand. 
<<<

That would be IRON MAN v3 #62-63. 

Other stories with holiday references (some slight) published in the last several years (other than the obvious "Holiday Specials"): 

Thanksgiving -- 
GENERATION X #23 
PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN v2 #50 
UNCANNY X-MEN #308 
WARLOCK v5 #5 

Christmas -- 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #420 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #2 
ANT-MAN'S BIG CHRISTMAS 
CABLE v2 #64 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v3 #50 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #22 
CAPTAIN MARVEL v5 #25-26 
DAREDEVIL #373 
DAREDEVIL v2 #6 
DAREDEVIL/SHI #1 
GENERATION X #60-61 
IMPERIAL GUARD #1, 3 
IRON MAN v3 #50-FB 
NEW WARRIORS v2 #5 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN #24 
SHE-HULK v3 #6-FB (one panel) 
SPIDER-MAN #77-78 
SPIDER-MAN'S TANGLED WEB #21 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED #15 
UNCANNY X-MEN #341-342, 365 
UNION JACK #3 
X-FACTOR #142-143 
X-MAN #24 
X-MEN v2 #109 
X-MEN ANNUAL 2000 
X-MEN UNLIMITED #31/2 
X-STATIX #10-FB, 17 

New Year -- 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v4 #25 
DEADPOOL v3 #15 
FANTASTIC FOUR v2 #3 
IRON MAN #313 
IRON MAN v3 #26-28 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED #15 
WAR MACHINE #12 
X-MEN v2 #73
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 10:41 am    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks, folks! I can't believe I overlooked "Ant-Man's Big Christmas"! (And that Thanksgiving issue of Uncanny is one of my all-time favorites!) 

By the way, does anyone know if Marvel put out a Holiday Special for 1995 (besides the Spidey one)? I have a vague recollection of an all-reprint '95 Marvel Holiday Special, but I may be hallucinating. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 06:50 pm    
By ShadZ

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Vision & Scarlet Witch #6 (Thanksgiving) 
Vision & Scarlet Witch #7 
<<<

Wasn't every issue of the Vision & Scarlet Witch maxi-series holiday themed (or at least seasonal)? For instance, I'm pretty sure #8 was a Martin Luther King Jr Day story (guest-starring Luke Cage).
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 23 Nov 2004 07:26 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Yes, but I didn't list them all because I didn't think Jeph would be interested in putting out a comic book about Halloween for Christmas. 

Steve Englehart notes all of the holidays of the series on his site, FYI.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Nov 2004 12:47 pm    
By Starman

One of the Incredible Hulk issues had a story with Rhino as a Santa. I do not remember which issue number though, but I think it was with the Gray Hulk.
_________________
John Hartigan: 
"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 24 Nov 2004 12:55 pm    
By jephyork
Director

#378, I think. Good story. 

Also, I just remembered that there was a Power Pack Holiday Special that wrapped up their series. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2004 12:59 pm    
By rhod

My fave xmas/winter story is Peter Parker(v2) #37. 

Not sure if anyone mentioned the Punisher holiday specials, not very festive though....

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2004 07:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

rhod wrote: 
>>>
Not sure if anyone mentioned the Punisher holiday specials, not very festive though.... 
<<<

Oh, yeah. Spread those out for your grandparents. 


watching: i'd do anything

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Posted: 28 Nov 2004 01:42 pm    Post subject: Let us make it even better....fictional holidays
By Enda80

How about fictional holidays? Holidays from the Hyborian or Thurian era, or of alien civilizations such as those of the Skrull and Kree? 

For example; 
SSOC#185 a feast to honor Mitra's defeat of Molub 
SSOC#119 the Feast of Crom 
another Feast of Mitra in King Conan#18 
Kull had a Feast of the Monkey God story 

Anyone think of any others? 

I think Holiday Special 1995 had Spider-Man versus Mephisto and some spirit of Christmas. 

Also check out Bizarre Adventures#34.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2004 01:57 pm    
By Enda80

http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timeline597.html has info on Passover, Hannukah, Christmas, etc. 

More Christmas Fun 

Circa 4 BCE 
======================== 
The angel Gabriel informs Mary that she will have Jesus. [BTYF/P #4] 
Jesus is born. [Some believe he is an eternally pre-existent cosmic being, 
others a prophet.] 

A series of odd or supernatural occurences serve as the Star of Bethlehem that lead the Magi to Jesus; the arrival of the Yazdi Gem and the destruction of Asgard in a prior version of Ragnarok. [BTYF/P #1, Life of Christ: The Christmas Story, Thor #293-294, Tomb of Dracula Magazine #1, Marvel Holiday Special 1996] 

The Magi who gave gifts to Jesus in fact were aliens who followed the Star of Bethlehem throughout the universe as it appeared before important events. [Marvel Comics Presents#17] 

Also, Marvel Age did a Fred Hembeck gag where Cap recalled (with Nick Fury?) saving Santa Claus from Hitler. ("Yes Virginia, there was a Hitler.) That could explain why Santa later disrupted the Hate-Monger's plot. The fast-moving object that startled the Hate-Monger's man in Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. I#10 was, quite possibly, Santa Claus. ( 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/santa.htm 

Actually, imagine a Hitler Christmas Party tape; Oh Come All Ye Hateful, I Saw Mufti Kissing Santa Claus, Little Gunner Boy, Violent Night, I saw Commie Kissing Santa Claus, with a Christmas dinner of Pol Pot Pie. 

As for Hannukkah, anyone ever wonder if any of those Rome never converts to Christianity worlds might have diverged with Antiochus Epiphanes winning Hanukkah?

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Dec 2004 04:32 pm    
By lkseitz

The Metal Master's return in ROM #30 takes place at Christmas, but I'm not sure I'd call it holiday-themed. I believe it ends with the narrator wishing the junkyard owner (a one-off character whose name I've forgotten) a "merry Christmas from Rom, Spaceknight" when he finds the Metal Master's ship sitting on top of his junkyard.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Dec 2004 08:00 pm    
By Enda80

Marvel Age had an article around 1985 on past X-Mas stories. I will have to dig it out. 

Oh, more song parodies 

Frosty the Hit Man 
Check the Walls 
Nuclear Wasteland 
Fire Bells 
Little Gunner Boy 
We Wish You a Scary Nightmare

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 09:14 am    
By jephyork
Director

...You already DID "Little Gunner Boy". 

 Everything okay? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Dec 2004 03:32 pm    
By Enda80

Incredible Hulk#312 features a six pages or so flashback to a Christmas Eve of Bruce Banner's past with Brian and Rebecca. Hope this helps.

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Posted: 11 Dec 2004 04:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Neat! 

Also, I just discovered that Generation X #4 is a Christmas story. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Dec 2004 03:16 am    
By JLH

What The?! #10 and 16 are Holiday themed.

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Thread 63

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 02:24 am    Post subject: which issue of x-men?
By poetdowns

Salut, 
There was an issue of the X-men, that came out 3 years ago minimum, 5 years max. (i have severe memory problems) 
This particular issue contained a racial slur; it was recalled quickly and another, appropriate issue was released. 
Does anyone remember or know what issue that was? 
I can't even be 100% certain which x-title, though i know it was a main title like "uncanny" and not a LS or special or such. And i know i have it but i do not relish looking thru 5 boxes of x-books trying to find this. 

Poet

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Posted: 13 Dec 2004 02:45 am    
By JLH

Wolverine #131. I have the original, uncensored version (my comic book store was unaware of the recall for quite some time), and it doesn't seem to have been intentional, unlike Michael Jackson's use of the same word!

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Posted: 13 Dec 2004 05:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Since the word "kike" makes no real sense in that context, it's pretty much certain that it was a genuine error - perhaps helped by an overenthusiastic spellchecker and a typo by the letterer. 

Besides, it's written by a pre-success Brian K Vaughan, hardly the sort of writer who's going to do something weird like that.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Dec 2004 09:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

And *why* is this in the Marvel Universe forum? 

(moved to Chat)

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Posted: 13 Dec 2004 03:54 pm    
By poetdowns

Apologies to moderator.....sometimes what i'm about to say doesn't seem (to me) to fit exactly anywhere, so i take my best guess (well, it's about an x-men book.....). 

And i can see i was way off in more ways than one. Thank you all for answering, the hours i would have spent paging thru x-books and not even actualy be looking in the right title -makes me shudder. 

And i'm in total agreement, it was some typo that slipped by i don't think the writer did it on purpose. 
Have you ever been so broke you had to quit buying comix? Ugh, and it's such a pain later on trying to catch up with what happened and where. So sometimes i have to choose a sacrificial offering for trade and barter purposes with the local retailer. That one will have to be next on my chopping block. 
My "friend" was holding a previous collection for me. If i remember correctly the famous first appearance of Wolverine is in there. "Just let me know when you want them back." Yah. 4 months later, hello?....helllooooo? 

Poet

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Thread 64

Posted: 13 Dec 2004 07:18 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 12/13
By ADMINISTRATOR

Diamond reports that these books are shipping from Marvel this week: 

Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes #3 
Cable Deadpool #10 
Daredevil #68 
Exiles #56 
Fantastic Four #521 
Invaders #5 
Madrox #4 
Marvel Age Fantastic Four #9 
Marvel Team-Up #3 
Official Handbook Marvel Universe Golden Age 
Spider-Man Doctor Octopus Year One #5 
Spider-Man India #2 
Ultimate Spider-Man #70 


watching: anderson cooper 360

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Posted: 13 Dec 2004 10:44 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

That's it? Geez, are some books shipping late? I keep having this feeling of impending doom for my wallet, like the next week is going to be a week where everything I collect comes in at the same time...the last couple weeks have been a tad bit light...going by that list, I only have 4 things from Marvel coming in this Wednesday. Last week, I only had 6, the week before, I think it was 4 or 5...I usually have 1 week where it's 8 or 9, but it has yet to come so far this month...  

Still, thanks for these lists, Russ...they're really helpful in planning out ahead what I need to buy each Wednesday. Though I'd be nice to know what DC and Dark Horse titles are coming in advance, (but I know that serves no purpose here)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2004 12:43 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

New X-Men #8, Wolverine #23, and X-Men #165 were scheduled to ship this week. There may be others, but those are the only ones that I collect. 


watching: ufo files

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Posted: 14 Dec 2004 07:02 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

There's a lot of books shipping late at the moment. 

Kevin, if you're looking for the full shipping list, it's available in various places - www.comiclist.com posts it a week in advance, for example.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 12:39 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Thanks Paul, that's just what I needed!  

I suspect I'm still going to get hit one week with a buttload of late comics all coming in at once...my record in recent times is 13 new comics in a single week. That's pushing it a tad too far for my wallet! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 65

Posted: 18 Dec 2004 01:39 pm    Post subject: Mephisto's History; many fbs
By Enda80

distant past; Doctor Strange Annual#2 top ten villains; Mephisto and Thog formed from energy left over from Demogorge's battle with the Elder Gods. 

Ghost Rider II#77-FB; Circa 1 BCE; Mephisto, mentioning Satan, Satannish, and Thog, observed Zarathos' actions, and used Centurious to defeat him. 


(MCP#135/3; Millennia ago, Mephisto defeated Darklove, turning him into a page of the Darkhold. 

987 CE; (Hell's Angel#1) Mephisto appeared to the Sect of the Chasidim. 

1349 AD; Mortigan Goth Immortalis#1-2; Mephisto played Mortigan Goth in a chess game. 

Middle Ages; Mephisto purchased the soul of the Brass Bishop. 

1700's; Silver Surfer I#8; Mephisto claimed the Flying Dutchman's soul. 

Mephisto made a deal with Uriel as to Noble Kale. 

Pre-Modern Era; Punisher IV#1; Mephisto defeated Olivier?

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Thread 66

Posted: 19 Dec 2004 01:49 am    Post subject: x-teams request
By the Krayon

i have a request for you all. 

i'm looking for a list of all the members on the core x-men teams in order (teams found in Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, X-Treme X-Men, and Astonishing X-Men) 

example: 

Proffessor X-headmaster 
Cyclops 
Marvel Girls 
Angel 
Beast 
Iceman 
Sage-under cover 

Proffessor X-headmaster 
Cyclops 
Marvel Girls 
Angel 
Beast 
Iceman 
Sage-under cover 
Mimick 

Changeling-headmaster 
Cyclops 
Marvel Girls 
Angel 
Beast 
Iceman 
Sage-under cover 

issue numbers would help also. 

thanks guys! 

---the_Krayon 

www.pleaseconvinceme.com

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Posted: 19 Dec 2004 03:28 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

the Krayon wrote: 
>>>
issue numbers would help also. 
<<<

Issue numbers? Issue numbers of what? 


watching: stepfather

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Posted: 19 Dec 2004 10:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

For starters, you could try to find the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men and note the "Feature Characters" that appear in each issue of UX.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Dec 2004 10:45 am    
By jephyork
Director

It looks like he wants us to list every single different X-Men line-up -- in order, from the beginning -- with the issues the various lineups were active in. 

And that's just plain beyond even MY patience. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 67

Posted: 20 Dec 2004 05:46 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 12/20
By ADMINISTRATOR

These books ship from Diamond this week: 

Astonishing X-Men #7 
Black Widow #4 
Excalibur #8 
Marvel Age Spider-Man #18 
Mystique #22 
New Thunderbolts #3 
Nightcrawler #4 
Punisher Red Xmas 
Rogue #6 
Stoker Dracula #2 
Ultimate Elektra #5 
Wolverine #23 
X-Force #5 
X-Men #165 


watching: degrassi tng

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Thread 68

Posted: 23 Dec 2004 03:35 pm    Post subject: Exiles and Kulan Gath; errors?
By Enda80

I find it amusing that Marvel has lost the rights to Conan, yet his shadow still influences them! In Exiles, we had somebody explicitly referencing the "Hyborean" age. (Proper spelling "Hyborian"....note that this mistake was made in the Conan Saga#75 release of The Official Handbook of the Conan Universe#1). 

Besides this, one other possible flaw hit me; Zarathos is shown possessing Johnny Blaze. Well, Johnny Blaze was freed of Zarathos on Earth-616 in Ghost Rider II#81, published in 1983....Kulan Gath's regression of Manhattan occurred in X-Men I#188-191, published in 1985. So, on this Earth, the divergence must have happened between "1979" (MTU I#79) and "1983" (Ghost Rider II#81). Somehow, Kulan Gath was freed earlier on this Earth.

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Thread 69

Posted: 21 Dec 2004 12:03 pm    Post subject: "Authorized" Marvel Fan-Site?
By Ross

I've found some information recently about how Marvel, at one point, was giving some level of allowance for "authorized" fan websites to use Marvel images/trademarks. Anyone know what the status of this program is - was it discontinued? I can't find anything about it on marvel.com anymore, though I did find some old/unlinked documents about it, and some fan sites that reference it.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2004 12:51 pm    
By lkseitz

I asked a similar question a year and a half ago on racmu. Eric J. Moreels replied, "Last I heard, Marvel's Authorized Fan Site Program was undergroing review/restructure following the departure of its originators from the company." I have not heard anything since then. 

As you said, you can still find the enrollment form on Marvel's web site via a Google search. The question is, would they actually do anything with it if you sent it in? Your best bet is to contact a site that signed the agreement when it was being supported and see what they say. There was supposed to be a special area of Marvel.com where authorized fan site webmasters could download selected art. If they've completely discontinued the program, they'd no doubt take that away.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 21 Dec 2004 08:29 pm    
By Ross

OK, after a little more Googling, I found this: 

http://www.neilalien.com/doc/archive/2002/01/ 

========== 
Firings, layoffs and departures at Marvel 
Includes the guy who was supposed to whip Marvel's schedule into shape, the Marvel Dog guy, and the woman who originated the Marvel Authorized Fan Site Program. Most Marvel.com features will no longer be updated. 
... 
Posted 14 January 02002 
========== 

Granted, it's from a weblog, so FWIW. But if true, seems like the fan-site thing might have been RIP back in early 2002. 

Just out of curiosity, was there ever any thought towards making the MCP an "authorized" fan site?

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Posted: 21 Dec 2004 09:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I looked into it. Didn't take me long to decide not to take part. 


watching: grayson

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Posted: 22 Dec 2004 10:07 am    
By lkseitz

When did you look and what, in particular, made you come to that decision? I know they made some changes to the program as it went along. I wasn't too impressed with the original version of the program, but a later revision was more acceptable. 

IIRC, the original version required a link to Marvel.com near the top of every page of the fan site. They later changed this to just the home page of the fan site.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 22 Dec 2004 01:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It was in the early stages. I never thought to look back. If memory serves, the program just didn't have much to offer, for the kind of site I was trying to build. I didn't need the graphics, and I wasn't looking for an official Marvel Seal of Approval. They hinted that it would provide some sort of legal protection in the future, but that was bogus. If legal issues entered into it, they could easily boot me out of the program, before issuing the papers to shut me down. It seemed to me that I would be providing more benefits to Marvel, than I would be getting out of the program. It's not that I disapproved of the program; it's just that it wasn't a good match for me. 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 22 Dec 2004 02:44 pm    
By Ross

Yeah, I'd agree that the program looks pretty chintzy, I'm only interested in it for the legal aspects. And I certainly don't think they're bulletproof - but they couldn't hurt. I'm working on a fairly massive project that uses Marvel stuff, and I have an ongoing fear that I'm investing all this time and effort only to have Marvel come along and piss all over it. 

Of course, the MCP (similar in spirit to my thing) has been around a long time, and has never been harassed by Marvel, right? In fact, doesn't a friendly relationship exist on some level? I'm thinking back to a past discussion about Marvel publishing the MCP or something like that.

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Posted: 22 Dec 2004 04:04 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Harassed? No. 

I would characterize the relationship between the Project and the freelancers and employees of Marvel as friendly, yes. There is no relationship between us and corporate Marvel. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 22 Dec 2004 11:32 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I was leary of the program myself. And while I, too, have no "official" relationship with Marvel, I helped Tom Brevoort on a project for FF #500 and he gave me -- and more importantly, my site -- a credit in the book. So, while I don't have any "authorization" per se, I think I've got a tacit approval legally to operate FFPlaza.com.

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Posted: 23 Dec 2004 03:38 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Interesting development, FYI... 

I got a call from Marvel's legal department this morning. They said that, while my site itself is fine and they appreciate the attention it generates for them, but I'm not allowed to sell illegal materials, like the FF movie from '94 or original character masks. 

But they're perfectly fine with fan sites in general -- that's the official word from Marvel legal. So there ya go!

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Thread 70

Posted: 27 Dec 2004 08:54 am    Post subject: Punisher 2099 question; did he find the War Journal?
By Enda80

Did he find the War Journal? I am asking because I have read that the last few issues of the 1980's/1990's Punisher series ended with somebody dropping the war journal into concrete.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 02:54 pm    
By rhod

In the last few issues of PWJ, the hunt was on for the war journal, however some merry prankster had creatde several fakes, leading to all sorts of fun and games with all the locals, gangsters and pun-wannabes alike. The whole thing kinda casts doubt on Jake Gallows discovering the genuine article, really.

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Thread 71

Posted: 25 Dec 2004 10:32 pm    Post subject: Merry Christmas!
By Kevin W.
Director

Though Christmas Day is almost over now, I figured I'd take time out to wish everyone a Merry Christmas! Hope you guys are enjoying the holidays! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 25 Dec 2004 11:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin. Happy holidays to you too, and to everyone on the forum. Anyone want to report on MARVEL-ous gifts they received? 

For me, it's the Spider-Man 2 DVD and a few volumes of Essentials, which I finally broke down and decided to start collecting. Of course, getting around to reading them is another matter... 


_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Dec 2004 12:17 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, as far as "Marvel-ous" gifts go... 

A friend got me a 20 dollar gift certificate to my comic book store. More comics to add to the collection!  

I also got "Who needs a Superhero?" by H. Michael Brewer, which has essays on, (in it's own words) "finding virtue, vice, and what's holy in the comics". Seems like it might be an interesting read. The backside of the book describes what's inside, basically, but one line that caught my eye made me laugh out loud. The line? "Is God more like Green Arrow or the Punisher?" That one caught me by surprise. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 26 Dec 2004 05:21 am    
By Enda80

"The backside of the book describes what's inside, basically, but one line that caught my eye made me laugh out loud. The line? "Is God more like Green Arrow or the Punisher?" That one caught me by surprise. " 

As described in the Koran and the Bible, the Abrahamic God is more extreme that either of them. Neither Frank Castle or Oliver Queen run an astral plane where their enemies are tortured forever. 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hell_eva.htm 
"Modern secular concepts of justice conflict with the traditional Christian beliefs about Hell. 
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.htm 
http://www.nobeliefs.com/worst-quotes.htm 
People today often think of Jesus as emblematic of forgiveness, but in the Gospels, he talks about Hell and eternal damnation more than anyone else in the gospels!

Last edited by Enda80 on 26 Dec 2004 03:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 26 Dec 2004 11:13 am   
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jeph, your turn. 


watching: superfriends

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Posted: 26 Dec 2004 04:44 pm    
By RLG

I also received Spider-Man II on DVD and have already watched it and the blooper reel - pretty funny stuff! Makes me wish Spider-Man III was coming out sooner. 

I did watch Daredevil Directors-cut DVD over the hoilday and thought it was a bit of an improvement. It still isn't a GREAT movie, but the new version might be worth renting out. 

Did anyone get the Amazing Spider-Man 1st 500 issues CD? I would be curious as to how good the quality is. 

Anyway, hope everyone had a great Christmas. 

- RLG

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 10:19 am    
By jephyork
Director

I got absolutely NOTHING comic-related for Christmas -- or my birthday, which is the 26th. 

I didn't really ask for anything, though. My family isn't all that comic-savvy and there's nothing on my wants list these days that's easy to track down. God help them if they have to venture into a comic store to find a copy of Thunderbolts #3 or Amazing Adventures v2 #8 -- their heads would explode. 

However, I did treat myself to $70 worth of comics during Mile High's 65%-off Christmas sale. So there's something.  

Hope everyone had a great holiday and safe travels. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 11:54 am 
By SKleefeld
Director

Merry Christmas, everyone! (I know... slightly belated, but I've been running among relative's households for the past several days.) 

Since we're playing "what comic loot did you score", I'll share what I got. Books: Tales to Astonish by Ronin Ro, Thor Legends Book 2 by Walt Simonson, Comics as Culture by M. Thomas Inge, and Marvel Visionaries: Jack Kirby. Videos: Countdown to Wednesday, Comic Book: The Movie, Wonder Woman season 1, and the History of Comics boxed set. 

The History of Comics is the only one I've had a chance to watch/read yet. It's about six hours and covers everything from Topfler up through the late 1980s, when it was produced. It was definitely interesting in that it looked at ALL comics, and not exclusively American ones as we see so often. It also had some incredible footage -- on-camera interviews with Lee Falk, Burne Hogarth, Alan Moore, Howard Chaykin and others, as well as several minutes worth of cartoons from Windsor McCay! On the down side, it's a little light on actual information and makes extensive use of simply presenting artwork with period music. 

I'm looking forward to getting to the rest of it, but who knows when that will happen!

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 02:04 pm    
By John Simons

Hope you all had a great holiday! 

I didn't get anything comic-related for Christmas, although I did score a Borders gift-card, which I will probably cash in for a copy of the Distinguished Competition Universe Encyclopedia. Man it looks great! 

Jeph, I know what you mean about the alien-ness of the comic shop to the layman. I figured out one way to combat this by putting graphic novels and such on a "wish list" through Amazon.com for holidays and my birthday. Then my wife or whoever just has to enter my name and hometown and it pops up. It's almost like registering for gifts before a wedding. It's actually pretty corny, but by gum it works! 

RLG: I enjoyed Spider-Man 2 enough in the theater to own a copy, but I know if I wait a month or two I can get a previewed copy for about 8 bucks. The DD movie (theatrical, I haven't seen the director's cut) was okay but could've been so much better. I think the creators tried to cram too much story into a mere 90 minute movie. If I was given control to film the Frank Miller run, I could've made three fantastic movies instead of one rushed, undercooked one. Also, Kingpin went down way too easily! 

I bought the Spidey CD-ROM when it came out, and it's very good. While I won't be selling off my Amazings anytime soon (by a wide margin I would prefer to read a comic in my hands than look at it on a computer screen), the benefit for me is having access to comics that are not good enough for me to actually buy, but I would want to be able to check out for research purposes. 

Sean: Tales to Astonish is great-- enjoy! Comic Book: the Movie is...cute. 

Speaking of Simonson Thor collections, I heartily recommend the deluxe HC of the first 12 issues. Not only does it sport a beautiful dustcover with new Simonson art, not only is it signed by Simonson, not only are the pages in the correct order (in the tpb they accidentally transposed a couple of pages), but it's only $30 from Tales of Wonder, which imho is well worth it! This is not a plug for TOW, honest, I just really love this run and it's a beautiful book. 

Russ: Thanks for providing a home for nutty timeline-obsessed Marvel Zombies. I may post sporadically but I visit this board almost every day to see what's new. I never cease to be amazed by the amount of hard work and the depth of passion that everyone dedicates to your great site. 

Happy New Year, y'all!
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 02:58 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
However, I did treat myself to $70 worth of comics during Mile High's 65%-off Christmas sale. So there's something.  
<<<

Oh, so you got in on that sale too, huh? I spent 45 dollars on myself through that sale. 

You guys are right: it never pays to send a layman into a comic store to shop for you. They'll get lost everytime. 


Quote: 
>>>
Tales to Astonish by Ronin Ro 
<<<

I've looked through that book, and it looks like a really good read. A truly revealing glimpse into the Jack Kirby/Stan Lee relationship. I'll have to actually break down and buy it sometime soon!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 72

Posted: 27 Dec 2004 08:21 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 12/27
By ADMINISTRATOR

Here are Marvel books that ship this week from Diamond: 

Amazing Spider-Man #515 
Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes #4 
Elektra the Hand #5 
Elektra the Movie 
Exiles #57 
Gambit #5 
Iron Man #2 
Kabuki #3 
Marvel Age Fantastic Four #10 
Marvel Age Spider-Man Team-Up #4 
Strange #3 
Supreme Power #14 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #14 
Ultimate Nightmare #4 
Warlock #4 
What if Aunt May had Died Instead of Uncle Ben? 
What if Doctor Doom had become the Thing? 
What if General Ross had become the Hulk? 
What if Jessica Jones had joined the Avengers? 
What if Karen Page had lived? 
What if Magneto had formed the X-Men with Professor X? 


watching: conn vs. toledo

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 02:52 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Wasn't there one more "What if" that was coming out this week? A comedy issue?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 09:07 am    
By jephyork
Director

Yeah, "Wha...huh?" has been delayed two weeks. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 73

Posted: 27 Dec 2004 08:01 am    Post subject: Who's next for their own page?
By JLH

Who'll be the next character to get their own page here on the MCP? I'm suspecting Wolverine, star of more books now than even had when Marvel Comics Presents was around.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 05:55 pm    
By lkseitz

Wolverine looks like a definite contender, but the Thing and Mister Fantastic are also good candidates. And all three of these characters have longer chronologies than Storm and the Sub-Mariner. Are there any actual criteria for giving a character his/her own page or is it just Russ' whim? 
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 08:12 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

lkseitz wrote: 
Are there any actual criteria for giving a character his/her own page or is it just Russ' whim? 


You start with the biggest pages, because the idea is to relieve download pressure on the big pages. By that token, Wolverine would be pretty far down the list, as the biggest pages are M, C, and always S. 

From there, you go to the longest chronology on that page. 

In fact, I've been looking for a decent representative panel of Mr. Fantastic for many months, in order to give him his own page. 


watching: conn vs. toledo

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Posted: 27 Dec 2004 09:19 pm    
By Jim Smith

A Mister Fantastic page would be wonderful. Whenever I look him up, I always brainfart and go to the F's for some reason.

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 10:32 am    
By lkseitz

Hey, that actually makes sense!  (Sorry I keep picking on you, Russ. Gotta keep you humble lest your head swell from the great job you've done with the MCP. Oh, look at that avatar. I guess it's too late.  ) Now I understand why Sub-Mariner and Storm got their own pages when their entries are just over half as long as Spider-Man's.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 74

Posted: 30 Dec 2004 05:20 pm    Post subject: Doubly fictional Marvel characters
By Enda80

Double fictionality; characters who not only do not exist in the real world, they don't exist on Earth-616 either! 

The way this works is if someone on Earth-616 is reading about a fictional character, then that character is metafictional. 

Marvel has very rarely done this, since it was early on established that "true crime" comics exist on Earth-616. Still, a few have shown up. 

Sadly, the ones that come from Nocturne#1 we have no further info other than them being radio heroes. 

Captain Crimebuster 
Copperhead: see Appendix profile 
the Crimson Bat: issue of Captain America with Joe Smith in it (#246) 
the Danger Gang, 
Jason Drew: see Doctor Strange III#9 Now magazine article 
Mad Dog: mini-series based on Bob Newhart 
Major Victory: from Invaders 
Megatak: from Thor, scourged 
the Midnight Racer: Dan Jurgens Captain America run 
Mister Menace, 
the Molecule Man 
the Purple Slasher: Dominic Fortune back-up in Hulk! 
Starr the Barbarian" Chamber of Chills#4 
Thundersword: Secret Wars 
the Two-Gun Kid: Two-Gun Kid#1-59 
Vapor Girl, 
the Monster Man & Kid Monstro: See Appendix entry
