	Marvel Universe Forum
1. The AOA page
2. Ancient One
3. The second gap
4. Knights 4
5. Possible thoughts regarding Marvel chronologies
6. The bell tolls
7. Kaluu
8. Missing appearances in Infinity War
9. Ningal in Chamber of Chills#3, not #4
10. Deathlok characters, actually, since.......
11. Recent X-chronology -- Updated Edition
12. Fafnir; first appearance odd note
13. The Beatles
14. FF 61
15. GLA #1 placement...
16. Tiboro
17. Black Knight in Marvel Fanfare
18. Iron Man #151-#200
19. The Blue and the Gray
20. Wild Thing (Nikkie Doyle) as canon
21. FAQ update
22. NFL Superpro
23. Target Presents: Reading to the Rescue!
24. Nick Fury & the Secret War
25. Guardian/James Hudson

	Issue Analysis Forum
26. Sabretooth v2 #1-4
27. CFA: Marvel Saga #1

	Bug Reports Forum
28. FF@ 2/2
29. MARVEL DOUGLE SHOT
30. Hulk typo

	Chat Forum
31. Fantastic Four trailer
32. Aside
33. Wundarr? Aquarian? Don't know!
34. Shipping this week: 4/4
35. Shipping this week: 4/11
36. Spider-Man 2 (the movie)
37. GAP #1
38. Obscure question
39. Technolgy used in comic books
40. Coming from Marvel in July
41. Shipping this week: 4/27






Thread 1

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: The AOA page
By Jason Doty

I love the fact that there now is an AOA page, but one character should not be on it, Bishop. 

This is the 616 Bishop who remained in the past because after Xavier was killed he was sort of already time displaced, grew older in the AOA, travled back in time and remerged with his younger-self trying to correct the problem. He just needs removed from the AOA page. 

Also, Nate Grey or X-Man, Dark Beast, and Sugar-man should start on this page with a link to the main 616 after X-Men: Omega.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien

Director

The AoA Bishop is a divergent version, as I read it. What happens in X-MEN OMEGA is that the AoA Bishop travels back in time to the point of divergence, and then (somehow or other) Bishop absorbs his memories. But the AoA Bishop hangs around for another few pages beyond that - he kills Legion and then vanishes as a temporal anomaly. He doesn't get reabsorbed into the mainstream Bishop at any point.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 01:28 pm 
By Jason Doty

It's been awhile, since I looked at it, but this is what I recall, 

Bishop and some X-Men go back in time to stop Legion. 
They fail. All but Bishop vanish, because time has been altered. 
Bishop remains and grows old in this AOA. 
Magneto and the X-Men rescue Illyanna to send him back in time. 
He gives himself (of the past) his memories. 
When he kills Legion, he disappears, because he does not exist in an AOA future. 
This is still our Bishop, not a divergent one. 

I know I'm probally not explaining this right, but this is the 616 Bishop and there is no AOA counterpart.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 04:50 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Sorry, Jason. 

The AoA Bishop IS different from the real Bishop. 

*Originally* there was no variant -- the "real" Bishop *did* spend 20 years in the AoA. 

But what we're saying is, when that Bishop travelled back in time in "X-Men Omega", he altered his own past -- and *made himself into* a variant version. Because he made the "real" Bishop's life occur differently. 

As far as the "real" Bishop remembers, he travelled back in time 20 years, was accosted by an alternate-future variant of himself who gave him a bunch of memories, and then came home. The "real" Bishop didn't actually experience the AoA firsthand -- not anymore. 

And that's why we define "AoA Bishop" as a variant. Because he *became* one. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 06:44 pm 
By Jason Doty

Then the 616 appearances of Bishop need to be adjusted to reflect that it was not him. 

It just dosn't seem to fit right in my mind. When he disappeared it was because the future had been reversed, it does not mean, that the events did not happen. I mean he had to perticipate in the AOA timeline to go back in time to stop Legion in the first place. Thats why my theory is that he merged with his younger self. 

My head hurts.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 10:46 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
it does not mean, that the events did not happen. 
<<<

Yes -- it DOES. 

The events no longer happened in the 616 timeline. They "happened", but AoA Bishop's time traveling caused the events that formed the AoA to be shunted off into an alternate universe. 

But you're quite right -- 616 Bishop's chronology DOES need to be amended. Everything between X #41 and X:OMEGA needs to be removed. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 2

Posted: 03 Apr 2005 03:28 am    Post subject: Ancient One
By rhod

The ancient ones listing includes an appearance in Strange Tales 169, this looks like an error?

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Thread 3

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 09:53 pm    Post subject: The second gap
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
On the other hand, what was really frustrating me was that the site might go down without ever having closed the gap(s). How far are we from that, anyway? 
<<<

As far as I know, the second gap is closed. The status of the first Gap is addressed in site FAQ. 


watching: larry king

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 10:39 pm    
By Dhall

Isn't Bug in the second gap? I don't think that's in the MCP yet, and no I'm not volunteering....

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:35 pm    
By Jim Smith

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
As far as I know, the second gap is closed. 
<<<

I just ask because I volunteered to analyze the Phoenix Resurrection, but never saw any of those issues added to the X-Men's chronologies. The gap page says it's "complete," along with all the other gap titles, so I just assumed "complete" meant "analyzed, but not added to the project yet." 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
The status of the first Gap is addressed in site FAQ. 
<<<

The FAQ says the first gap is narrowed down to 1993-1994, but I'd be interested in more specific details, like which issues of which series are in it, or estimates on when it'll be finished off. 

I suppose it'd be too much trouble to do it, but I've always thought it'd be nice to have a page for the first gap along the lines of the page for the second. Not necesarily inviting volunteers to help, but just listing the outstanding material.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:53 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
I just ask because I volunteered to analyze the Phoenix Resurrection, but never saw any of those issues added to the X-Men's chronologies. The gap page says it's "complete," along with all the other gap titles, so I just assumed "complete" meant "analyzed, but not added to the project yet." 
<<<

Hunh. Well, darn. You say you volunteered to analyze. Does that mean you haven't analyzed yet? Perhaps I didn't do a good enough job of verifying that people who had offered to contribute, had gone through with it. Or are you saying that you *did* contribute, but it hasn't worked its way in, yet? Because my intention *was* to say that the site reflects the contributions that I've received, and therefore, the gap is closed. 


Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
The status of the first Gap is addressed in site FAQ. 
<<<

The FAQ says the first gap is narrowed down to 1993-1994, but I'd be interested in more specific details, like which issues of which series are in it, or estimates on when it'll be finished off.  
<<<

Well, it goes a little further than that. It mentions the titles that have been closed in the Gap, which in a sense gives you the status. Off the top of my head--and without listing an issue range--some of the titles that remain are: She-Hulk, Spirits of Vengeance, Cage, Marvel Super-Heroes, Excalibur, X-Factor, Cable, Warlock and Infinity Watch, Marvel Comics Presents, Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection, Super Soldiers, Deadpool, Gambit, Shroud, Warlock Chronicles, Spider-Woman.... I could think of others, if I weren't tired.... 

Work on Wolverine has concluded, but hasn't been posted yet, and I'm in the middle of analyzing Alpha Flight. 

And as for when it'll be finished, I could give you an estimate, but it wouldn't be of any value. 


watching: married with children

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Posted: 03 Apr 2005 02:48 am    
By Jim Smith

I analyzed the comics and I recall posting them to the Issue Analysis board, but it has been months now so it's possible I never took that last step. I'm sure I still have my analyses on my hard drive if it comes to that.

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Posted: 03 Apr 2005 11:39 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I see it's there. From September. We'll get to it. 


watching: justice league

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Thread 4

Posted: 17 Mar 2005 09:54 am    Post subject: Knights 4
By SKleefeld
Director

Okay, FOUR 16 came out this week and helped a lot in placement of this and the previous issue, despite the writer having no real grasp of how time-travel should work. 

Anyway, there's a comment that the Avengers are "smashed to pieces" obviously referencing the Disassembled arc. So, we're clearly after A3 503. It would also suggest that this occurs before Finale since that issue has a more positive spin than the "smashed to pieces" line would imply. 

Now, Sue and Johnny's powers are swapped from FF3 519 until FF3 523. And at the end of 523 -- and presumably through most of 524 -- their powers are gone entirely. Also, 517-519 are pretty much continuous, so we're either before FF3 517 or after FF3 524. 

I don't know if I've caught every comment on the boards here over the past month or three, but I think my notes should line up fairly closely with Paul's calendar and whatever Russ is jotting down on his end. So, based on my comments above and the notes I already have, that means that FOUR 15-16 should get placed something like... 

A3 500-503 
FOUR 15-16 
FF3 517-519 
AVFIN 
FF3 520-524

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Posted: 18 Mar 2005 10:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have a different order, which is still tentative, pending more details from as-yet published comics. 

A 500-503 
FF 517-524 
A:FINALE 
M/HOL'04 1/3 
FOUR 13-18 
FF:FOES 1-6 

I'm waiting to see what happens with Johnny and Kourtney. Kourtney notes that she's leaving NYC for California in FOUR 13, and she's in California in FOUR 15. I'm presuming the separation will lead to their break-up and we then see Johnny seeing other girls by FF:FOES 1. Kourtney and Johnny are still together at Christmas in M/HOL'04 1/3, so I'm placing FOUR 13+ in the new year after the fall of Disassembled and Finale and the Halloween of FF 517. And I'm under the impression that FF 517-524 all occur during a short period and see no reason to place A:FINALE in the middle of it. Besides, we have the "three months" reference since Disassembled in A:FINALE and I reckon the Halloween of FF 517 occurs within that three-month period. 

I noticed that "smashed to pieces" line in FOUR 16 and interpret it a bit more liberally. As long as FOUR 15-18 is before NA 1, we should be okay. Of course, I'm dealing with a March placement of NA 1 (that "six months" reference) and a reference to Little League in FOUR 15. Ugh.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Mar 2005 09:32 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm waiting to see what happens with Johnny and Kourtney. Kourtney notes that she's leaving NYC for California in FOUR 13, and she's in California in FOUR 15. I'm presuming the separation will lead to their break-up and we then see Johnny seeing other girls by FF:FOES 1.  
<<<

Johnny seeing other girls behind Kourtney's back wouldn't lead to a break-up?  

Seriously, I think you're putting too much weight on Kourtney. The only places she's appeared were in Aguirre-Sacasa stories, and he's already defined in story that she and Johnny have an on-again-off-again relationship. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And I'm under the impression that FF 517-524 all occur during a short period and see no reason to place A:FINALE in the middle of it. Besides, we have the "three months" reference since Disassembled in A:FINALE and I reckon the Halloween of FF 517 occurs within that three-month period. 
<<<

Well, in terms of the MCP, it's the same. No one in AVFIN appears in FF 517-523 (probably not 524 either) and no one in FF 517-524 appears in AVFIN. The only impact the change in placement would have would be to your calendar. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I noticed that "smashed to pieces" line in FOUR 16 and interpret it a bit more liberally. As long as FOUR 15-18 is before NA 1, we should be okay.  
<<<

I think the Time Keeper would've said "are in a state of disarray" or something less powerful than "smashed to pieces" if he meant it to be interpretted more liberally. Ramades was seeking advice on the perfect time to act, and the Time Keeper told him a time when the Avengers were at their lowest ebb. I take this context to mean that Jan would still be in the hospital with Hank still by her side; She-Hulk in containment by SHIELD; Hawkeye, Ant-Man, and Vision dead; etc. If we put FOUR 15-16 after AVFIN, then there are more players on the field that could pose a threat to Ramades since Hank and Jan are back and She-Hulk has been released. 

Similarly, there must be SOME time elapsing between FF 519 and FF 520 since Reed calls in Quasar, who's been off-world. Quasar continues to hang around Earth through FF 523, so why start an attack shortly after he leaves? He's still going to be thinking about Earth and clearly has shown the willingness to return -- despite still housing that alien from Maximum Security. If Ramades attacks before FF 519, he knows that Quasar will not enter into the equation and, therefore, won't pose a threat. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Of course, I'm dealing with a March placement of NA 1 (that "six months" reference) and a reference to Little League in FOUR 15. Ugh. 
<<<

Do I need to mention again why I'm still not sold on the calendar method? 

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Posted: 19 Mar 2005 10:45 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I think the Time Keeper would've said "are in a state of disarray" or something less powerful than "smashed to pieces" if he meant it to be interpretted more liberally. Ramades was seeking advice on the perfect time to act, and the Time Keeper told him a time when the Avengers were at their lowest ebb.  
<<<

Not to question the veracity or sagacity of that Time Keeper, but heck, why not tell Ramades to conquer earth at a time before FF 1? You may be reading too much into that "smashed to pieces" statement -- it could be just a bold way of saying that they're history -- formally disbanded, with members dead (Clint, Vizh, Scott, Jack still dead), out of the country (Hank, Jan, Capt. B.), etc., etc. Lowest ebb? How about a time when the team doesn't exist at all? That'd be a good time to attack. 

If your theory holds up, though, then this story arc in FOUR will need to occur within a more limited time frame than between A 503 and A:FINALE. It would need to occur between A 503 and the next appearance of the recovered Wasp, now theorized as M/KS-M 11 (which precedes Spectacular #20). 


Quote: 
>>>
Similarly, there must be SOME time elapsing between FF 519 and FF 520 since Reed calls in Quasar, who's been off-world.  
<<<

So how long would it take to summon Quasar? I just didn't see much of a gap in that storyline at all. 


Quote: 
>>>
Quasar continues to hang around Earth through FF 523, so why start an attack shortly after he leaves? He's still going to be thinking about Earth and clearly has shown the willingness to return -- despite still housing that alien from Maximum Security. If Ramades attacks before FF 519, he knows that Quasar will not enter into the equation and, therefore, won't pose a threat.  
<<<

I don't follow your reasoning here. As long as Quasar is off-world, what would it matter if he'd just been to earth or not? And yes, he's always so willing to return...he did so for Disassembled, which would have occurred just before the place you want to put FOUR 15-18. So what would lead Ramades to think Wendell wouldn't return to earth after he'd been there for A 503? 

And besides, I'm not suggesting placement of FOUR 15-18 right after FF 524 anyway. I have four months tentatively separating FF 524 and FOUR 15 -- that's a much greater amount of time than I have between A 503 and FF 517-524. 

The jury's still out on this one. Let's see what else we can glean from FOUR 17-18 and from the continued adventures of Johnny and Kourtney.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Mar 2005 11:35 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Not to question the veracity or sagacity of that Time Keeper, but heck, why not tell Ramades to conquer earth at a time before FF 1? 
<<<

Well, part of that goes back to my initial comment that Aguirre-Sacasa clearly doesn't understand the basic theories of time travel. Why send the FF back in time at all? If he really is the son of Rama-Tut/Kang, then he should know darn well how many options the FF have to escape the past. Plus, if/when the FF do escape they can pop back to the exact moment they left. 

Not to mention, as you said, there's no reason to suggest he try to conquer the Earth between M/LG 12 and FF 1 when there aren't really any heroes around. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
You may be reading too much into that "smashed to pieces" statement -- it could be just a bold way of saying that they're history -- formally disbanded, with members dead (Clint, Vizh, Scott, Jack still dead), out of the country (Hank, Jan, Capt. B.), etc., etc.  
<<<

Well, that's why I was saying it should be before AVFIN. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
If your theory holds up, though, then this story arc in FOUR will need to occur within a more limited time frame than between A 503 and A:FINALE. It would need to occur between A 503 and the next appearance of the recovered Wasp, now theorized as M/KS-M 11 (which precedes Spectacular #20). 
<<< 

Which is fine by me. I haven't really kept up with MKS-M and will bow to others' judgements on that. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And yes, he's always so willing to return...he did so for Disassembled, which would have occurred just before the place you want to put FOUR 15-18. So what would lead Ramades to think Wendell wouldn't return to earth after he'd been there for A 503? 
<<<

I'll concede that point. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The jury's still out on this one. Let's see what else we can glean from FOUR 17-18 and from the continued adventures of Johnny and Kourtney. 
<<<

Fair enough. I was just doing some advance "scouting" as it were. 

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 03:33 am    
By jannepie

I don't know how you've considered adding Galactus's appearances in this list but I think Brevoort said in his forum at Comixfan that Stormbreaker comes after Storm Rising. Just to let you know.

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Posted: 03 Apr 2005 10:28 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I don't know how you've considered adding Galactus's appearances in this list but I think Brevoort said in his forum at Comixfan that Stormbreaker comes after Storm Rising. Just to let you know. 
<<<

?!? How can Stormbreaker occur after the latest Fantastic Four arc? Galactus is his usual World Devouring self in the Stormbreaker miniseries...talk about reverting to the status quo rather quickly... 

Fantastic Four #517 occurs shortly after Avengers 503, (though I realize that just how shortly after is open to debate). FF 517 runs pretty much without interruption up to FF 523, wherein Galactus (now Galen) tosses himself into another dimension, (wherein he's supposed to be trapped). 

We know that Stormbreaker picks up right where the events of Thor: Disassembled left off, (on the same day, non the less). And on that same day, Galactus is shown eating Beta Ray Bill's homeworld that same day. 

How much time truly passed over the course of the Thor: Disassembled arc? Because the old Avengers appeared briefly in the that story arc...it just seems like we would be hard pressed to put Galactus in Fantastic Four #523 before Stormbreaker.... 

The only possible way around this is by saying that time in the "Stormbreaker" is abstract in the depths of the cosmos and in Asgard, and to somehow say that Beta Ray Bill got back to his homeworld, (in time to see it being eaten by Galactus) much later than he thought.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 09:16 am    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
How much time truly passed over the course of the Thor: Disassembled arc? Because the old Avengers appeared briefly in the that story arc...it just seems like we would be hard pressed to put Galactus in Fantastic Four #523 before Stormbreaker.... 
<<<

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would be very comfortable in placing Thor 80-81 (Cap & IM guest-star) before A500 and the end of T85 after NA1, and say that Ragnarok took at least a year, maybe more to the Asgardians themselves.

Last edited by Somebody on 04 Apr 2005 05:32 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 05:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Or we could go check the authenticity of janniepie's information. Both titles have "storm" in them -- it's possible he reversed them in his mind. 

Galactus appearing in Stormbreaker before FF #520-523 would work much better all around. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 05:29 pm    
By Somebody

I checked already, just didn't link: http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=994888&postcount=1350

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 09:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Galactus appearing in Stormbreaker before FF #520-523 would work much better all around.  
<<<

Agreed. I can see the Ragnarok storyline in T2 occurring over the course of the summer prior to Disassembled, perhaps stretching from June (after X-Statix #26) to September. The storyline in FF 517-524 begins on Halloween. We could place Stormbreaker during October (or for non-fans of the calendar, before FF 517-524)? It looks like there's room. 

But if Brevoort isn't mistaken, Galactus is going to have to un-exile himself to make his appearance in Stormbreaker after Storm Rising possible.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 5

Posted: 30 Mar 2005 11:29 am    Post subject: Possible thoughts regarding Marvel chronologies
By ChastMastr

Hi there! Again I appreciate the help regarding the Aquarian story in Bizarre Adventures (on the Chat board) and it's great to meet you all -- I have a thought I'm pondering people's take on regarding Marvel continuity... 

I've found with both Marvel and its Distinguished Competition that, given the decades-long histories the books have, if I wanted to arrange all of a given universe's books chronologically, it can make for jarring reading. It's very awkward reading, say, an issue of Lee and Kirby X-Men and then a much-differently-written continuity implant from decades later which may even contradict or alter the original story, not to mention the individual writing styles and the "house styles" of the period. 

What I found worked with DC was to arrange things first by continuity (broken up partly by timeline-altering stories like Crisis, Zero Hour, Kindgom, etc. and also by other things) and then by chronology. The thing is, Marvel doesn't have those, or if it does they're undone the way Age of Apocalypse was -- though things do retroactively change (the FF were originally trying to beat the Soviets to the moon, I believe), just quietly. (I have no idea how Dazzler can be explained now. Perhaps she started out as a "retro" disco diva in the 1990s?) Then I hit on an idea: Perhaps Marvel could be organized first by editorial shifts, and then by continuity. 

What I've come up with is this, at least for my own reading pleasure -- thus far I have something like six (as opposed to DC's nine) different "Marvel Universes": 


The Golden Age 
The "Lee era" ending circa 1972 
The Thomas/Goodwin era 
The Shooter era 
The DeFalco/Harras era 
and the current Quesada era


This works well for me partly because during, say, the Stan Lee era, the characters actually aged in real time, whereas they slowed to a crawl shortly afterward. There is no need for me to try to work out (say) the variant versions of the Rawhide Kid or the Squadron Supreme because they're from slightly, though unofficial, different universes. It also can give some characters somewhat different endings -- Earth X and Marvels both are in the DeFalco/Harras era (I don't break up storylines between groupings) and I needn't concern myself with whether they fit with anything in Shooter or Quesada. (This also means that I don't have to fret over references to cell phones or PCs in a story set when Peter Parker is in high school.) 

(I imagine that the previously-mentioned Aquarian story could be the "finale" to the Shooter era in the way that Earth X could be for the DeFalco era, too.) 

Thoughts? 

David

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Posted: 30 Mar 2005 12:21 pm    
By ChastMastr

(It also conveniently means that one can have "happy endings" for various characters -- *cough*VisionandScarletWitch*cough* -- when a later editorial fiat retroactively tears them to pieces...)

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Posted: 30 Mar 2005 04:31 pm    
By ChastMastr

... oh, and the new retcon Strange series. 

Possibly others... don't know if this is a specific plan by Quesada to revise various origins or a one-time thing.

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Posted: 30 Mar 2005 05:07 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

That's an interesting notion you have there, and I can certainly understand what you're trying to do. I like the solution of using EICs. 

But, speaking personally, it's not for me. 

Generally speaking, I don't try to actually read all these issues chronologically. I do look at them like that when I'm trying to determine placements, obviously, but not when I'm just reading for leisure. What I personally find most interesting and useful about the MCP is that this ordering puts every story in context. 

If Spider-Man is moping about instead his usual upbeat self, it helps make more sense to me if I know that Gwen died -- in his world -- just a few days ago. If Ben Grimm and Nick Fury act like old friends in what appears to be their first meeting, it's helpful to know that they actually fought together during WWII. 

It's that context and texture that I'm looking for. Am I actually going flip between West Coast Avengers, Fantastic Four, Dr. Strange and Rise of Apocalypse in one sitting to get one "complete" story? Good grief, no! But using the MCP, I know what's going on while an unconscious Dr. Strange is being dragged across the floor. 

But that's just me. YMMV

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Posted: 30 Mar 2005 11:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I take the same approach as Sean on this. Reading for pleasure and researching are two different activities for me. Flipping between issues ala the MCP is great for research purposes, but not conducive to an enjoyable reading experience. Then there's a middle ground, ala the Marvel Saga, that organizes events chronologically, no matter when the comics were published, but digests it and presents it in a format that's enjoyable to read.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 12:30 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Another possible idea similar to the Editorial Eras you've suggested above is to utilise the number of times that the Marvel Universe has been destroyed and recreated in-story. One could suppose that whenever these recreations happen, the Marvel backstory gets retroactively tweaked and brought in line with the ten-year timeline. 

Does anyone know when the first time the MU was destroyed and recreated was?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 05:06 pm    
By ChastMastr

Good heavens. I think this has probably happened dozens of times (just off the top of my head, the universe blinked out of and back into existence in a panel or two back in the M'Kraan Crystal storyline in X-Men; Age of Apocalypse; the Kulan Gath world; the list goes on...). Wow!  

I should mention that I don't usually mix individual issues, but storylines. So a six-part story (not a crossover) will get put in before or after a four-parter or a one-shot of another title rather than jumbling them together, which would give me a massive headache ("Meanwhile, over in Fantastic Four..."). I'm treating storylines as chapters of a novel rather than breaking them up into pages and splicing them together. 

(I'll have to see how Waid's and Marvel Knights' versions of FF mix together here on the site. That confuses me...) 

David 
bear of little brain

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 05:07 pm    
By ChastMastr

Hmmm. Re the MU being recreated/destroyed, possibly -- just a guess -- something involving the original Cosmic Cube storyline? 

David

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 10:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Another possible idea similar to the Editorial Eras you've suggested above is to utilise the number of times that the Marvel Universe has been destroyed and recreated in-story. One could suppose that whenever these recreations happen, the Marvel backstory gets retroactively tweaked and brought in line with the ten-year timeline. 
<<<

I think this approach was suggested some time back in another thread and has had me thinking ever since. How exactly would this work from the standpoint of the characters of the MU? My assumption has been that whenever the MU was "remade," it resumed from the precise point in time at which it was "unmade" and the status quo regarding all characters' lives, memories of previous storylines, and calendar was maintained. 

As I understand it, the proposed theory involves resetting the clock, basically. Somehow the calendar gets ratcheted back several years, yet all MU characters preserve their memories of their lives during all the years that were "erased." Somehow, even though they have, say, seven years of memories since Year A, they nonetheless buy into the idea that it's year A (again or still). And somehow, their physiologies do not reflect the seven "lost" years; the characters actually get younger with every reboot. And furthermore, no one -- not even Reed Richards -- suspects anything is amiss. 

Is that the gist of the theory? If so, can anyone expand on that? If not, can someone correct me?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 11:29 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

That sounds similar to how I imagine things working with this theory, except that certain stories would be altered or possibly even booted out of continuity entirely. Or replaced with others, such as X-Men: Children of the Atom, or that whole business woth Iron Man and the Crimson Dynamo's recent series. 

If I were to seriously tackle this as a chronology, I wouldn't even say a story has definitely happened unless it's directly referenced in the post-reboot timeframe.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 12:25 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 
>>>
That sounds similar to how I imagine things working with this theory, except that certain stories would be altered or possibly even booted out of continuity entirely. Or replaced with others, such as X-Men: Children of the Atom, or that whole business woth Iron Man and the Crimson Dynamo's recent series. 
<<<

And that's why DC's chronology is in such a *mess*. 


watching: seinfeld

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 10:16 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Hey, I didn't say it was a good theory! I'm just open to any theories that can make sense of MU history, and I'm always on the lookout for them. 

Besides, it's rapidly becoming apparent that Marvel are intent on rebooting their characters and their histories, from the Black Panther to Iron Man to god knows what else is coming in House of M.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 10:59 pm    
By garbonzo

this makes sense. Couple this with the discussion on the previous thread about Marvel wishing to close this forum down, it really points to one thing: Marvel is going to draw a line in the sand and say "this is the status quo from this point forward." very zero Hour or Crisis type event. It will solve the continutiy issues that we keep bringing up as well as allow Marvel writers the uninhibited storytelling they have enjoyed under Quesada. It makes sense to me. It doesn't mean that I like it. It just means that I understand it. 

garbonzo

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 11:15 am    
By ChastMastr

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
And that's why DC's chronology is in such a *mess*. 
<<<

Actually I think it's pretty good these days. To a degree I think things there were pretty good for about three years after Crisis (things were more or less consistent before Crisis -- it just involved parallel worlds, but Roy Thomas did an excellent job of fitting everything together), and then the ignoring of continuity began for a while. (Hawkman, for instance. Poor Katar!) Post-Zero Hour, things sort of made sense for a while, kind of (Robinson and Goyer and Johns stepped into Thomas' shoes). But I really like the Birthright era... 

I think part of the problem with continuity is having really bad stories hammered into the official history so permanently that one has to have a long miniseries to explain them away. (Or not only bad stories -- just stories the current editors or writers wish to do away with. So Byrne retconned Scarlet Witch's children into, er, being two-fifths of Mephisto's "shattered soul" (say what??) and the Vision into merely a soulless robot (thus chucking pretty much everything done with the character since his creation -- gone were all the "But am I a person, deep down?" soul-searching soliloquies which made him interesting in the first place, his eventual growth and development, relationship with Wanda, marriage, family, which many other writers had built up -- all because Byrne thought it was too much like "marrying a toaster" as he put it at the time -- which means that any future writer who wants to get back to the way things were before has to explain all of that away, somehow.) 

(I have no idea how the whole Spider-Clone thing was resolved; I'm just happy that Peter apparently was Spider-Man after all the whole time.) 

Though I would like a firm, clear post-Birthright list of what happened when as regards the Golden Age characters in particular.  Hopefully it will be forthcoming eventually. 

David 
poor Wanda!
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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 12:10 pm    
By ChastMastr

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
this makes sense. Couple this with the discussion on the previous thread about Marvel wishing to close this forum down... 
<<<

I squeal with glee as I joyfully suggest everyone check out the thread -- it was an April Fools' joke after all!! 

David 
"Can't you feel the brand new day? Can't you feel the brand new day..." 
-- The Wiz

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 01:30 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Say what you will about all of Byrne's retcons in Avengers West Coast, he never tried to claim that the previous stories never happened. 

Although, come to think of it, didn't he try something like that in She-Hulk? 


watching: live from

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 03:44 pm    
By ChastMastr

He certainly did with Spider-Man...

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Posted: 05 Apr 2005 11:17 am    
By ShadZ

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Say what you will about all of Byrne's retcons in Avengers West Coast, he never tried to claim that the previous stories never happened. 

Although, come to think of it, didn't he try something like that in She-Hulk? 
<<< 


Yes, but it may have been in jest...
_________________
ShadZ

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Thread  6

Posted: 01 Apr 2005 01:08 am    Post subject: The bell tolls
By Administrator

Well, I guess we knew this day would come, sooner or later. 

When I got home from umpiring yesterday, I received an email from legal counsel for Marvel Entertainment, "requesting" that my site be removed, as it violates Marvel's copyright, and detracts from future revenue that might be gained by Marvel (presumably meaning that Marvel may one day decide to publish a Chronology Project...or they might not, but it's still their decision to make). 

I spent a good portion of Thursday evening with my own legal advisor. She believes that what we're doing constitutes fair use, and is defensible, but honestly, my heart's not in it. I've long believed that Marvel owns all the rights, both present and future, to their characters, and now the time has come to back up what I've said all along. 

I suppose we'll go quietly into the night, after all. Of course, it'll take a day or so to take everything down, since I have real life work, and umpiring, and *stuff* that's more important. I don't expect the site to last past the weekend, though. 

Thanks, guys. It's been fun.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 03:06 am
By John Simons

Yeah, right! What kind of fools do you think we are? You're gonna have to do better than that, silly boy.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

Last edited by John Simons on 05 Apr 2005 01:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 03:32 am    
By shandrakor

I apologize for being a little in-your-face after hardly being a participant in this project (and disappearing for 4 months after offering to help) but: Bullshit. 

You cannot possibly believe that Marvel's ownership of their characters (past, present or future) extends to prohibiting this sort of project. All you have is a checklist of character appearances, organized in an order determined by the community. I can't imagine that you're arguing that a checklist of apperances violates copyright, so you must believe that it's the order. 

Seeing as what this community has produced is not, nor does it claim to be an Official or Definitive chronology, but is instead just the opinions of some people who've read (and to the best of my knowledge, purchased) these comics, I fail to see how that could violate copyright either. 

As for detracting from further revenues, you know as well as I that the amount of work necessary to produce this chronology would be prohibitively expensive, and yield a product of very limited commerical viability. For that matter, the claim that this could detract from even that potential revenue stream is impossible to prove, since the sort of people to frequent this site are exactly the sort of people who would purchase an Official Marvel Chronology, simply to have the Official Word from On High and have all these arguments put to rest once and for all. 

Frivolous cease and desist letters are a fairly common corporate practice these days because the companies assume (usually rightfully) that the owners of these sites will be frightened by the mere threat of legal action and fold, despite there being no real legal basis behind the demand. 

My only point of concern is that there are a few potentially infringing images on your site that you might want to pull down. You could also rename the project the "Unofficial Marvel Chronology Project" to further distance yourself from any claims that you're attempting to supplant their authority. 

From there, you simply send them a polite email saying something to the effect of: 

"[Marvel Lawyer] - 

After reviewing your concerns about the website that I run with my legal council, we have come to the conclusion that the content of my site fits well within the realm of Fair Use. With the exception of a few infringing images (which have since been removed), we found no evidence of a violation of Marvel's copyrights. 

Regarding your claim that my site's content detracts from potential future revenue, we would like to point out that we have never claimed to be an official reference, nor am I generating any revenue from the operations of this site. The information available on my site is nothing more than the opinions of a few of Marvel's dedicated fans, and we have always taken the statements of Marvel's creative staff as the first word in what material is cannon, or the intended order of a character's apperances. However, in the interest of being as fair to Marvel as possible, I will take additional steps to clarify, both in the title of the site, and in the FAQ, that this is an Unofficial project, and is not intended in any way to supplant statements made by Marvel regarding the official order of their stories. 

If Marvel were to publish an Official Chronology, I would almost certainly remove this website, as it would be redundant, and no longer useful or "accurate." 

Until that time, as I said above, this site appears to fall within the Fair Use doctrine of U.S. Copyright Law." 

Then sign off with a nice little "hope this helps" or something. 

The simple fact of the matter is that this is nothing more than corporate bullying, and you shouldn't back off until they do something to actually show real force. More than likely, they'll send you a second, angrier sounding letter, and you politely blow them off again. After a round or two of that, they've got two choices. They can give up, which they'll almost certainly do, or they can sue you to take it down. 

They can't sue you for any money, since they can't possibly prove damages, so they'll sue for "specific performance" - taking down the site. 

If, and only if, they sue you to take it down, and you're still not in the mood to fight such a ridiculous lawsuit, then you simply take down the site, respond with a letter that you've done so, and the case closes without you ever even needing to pay a lawyer any more than you may already have. 

So, tell me. Is the work you've put in here over the last several years worth the hassle of telling a company's lawyer politely to blow it out his ass in a couple emails? 

Hell, I think it's worth doing personally, and all I've managed to do is recap 6 issues of Hulk and sort out a mess with Hulk: Grey. 

shandrakor

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 05:19 am    
By loki

I'd wait until tomorrow to see if Admin is still discussing this letter from Marvel before starting to get angry.....

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 05:30 am    
By Somebody

Quote: 
>>>
Fri 01 Apr, 2005 6:08 am  
<<<

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 06:46 am    
By Enda80

Mr. Chappell , what about this message board? Will this go down too? 

I should hope not....it would take a while to copy things unarchived. That said, I must say that the Chronologyproject was very helpful to marvunapp.com , as I often caught omitted appearances from it and the boards.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 08:20 am  
By John Simons

Y'know, I didn't notice the date at first. Can this be an April Fool's joke? pretty please?

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 10:16 am    
By lkseitz

John Simons wrote: 
Y'know, I didn't notice the date at first. Can this be an April Fool's joke? pretty please? 


Truly a sad, sad day. But I still don't believe it for a second. My original response: I got halfway through the second response before remembering, "Hey, it's April Fool's Day!" Good one, Russ, but you'll be hearing from my lawyer about the near coronary you gave me! smilie
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

Last edited by lkseitz on 01 Apr 2005 05:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 10:18 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm already muchly late for work, but wanted to take a moment to respond... 

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Thanks at least for the warning, so we could save back-ups of some of the work, but damn will I ever miss this site. 
<<<

Thanks, John. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Have you considering trying to negotiate at all? I mean, if Marvel does have it in mind to do their own Chronology project, who better to handle that than you?  
<<<

That's a possibility, but to my knowledge, Marvel has no definite plans to do it. They just want to protect their *right* to do it. 


shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
If, and only if, they sue you to take it down, and you're still not in the mood to fight such a ridiculous lawsuit, then you simply take down the site, respond with a letter that you've done so, and the case closes without you ever even needing to pay a lawyer any more than you may already have.  
<<<

As I mentioned, my attorney thinks we can win, but I've said from the very beginning that if Marvel's not happy with it, I'll take it down. So should I do what I say I'll do? 


shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
So, tell me. Is the work you've put in here over the last several years worth the hassle of telling a company's lawyer politely to blow it out his ass in a couple emails?  
<<<

I put in the work for fifteen years *before* ever making it publically available, first on racmu, then on a website. That won't stop. It just won't be around for the public. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Mr. Chappell , what about this message board? Will this go down too? 
<<<

I should hope not....it would take a while to copy things unarchived. That said, I must say that the Chronologyproject was very helpful to marvunapp.com , as I often caught omitted appearances from it and the boards. 


Thanks, John. You've put up with a lot of *sighing* from me, and took it with good grace. I don't think Marvel has any claim to the forum, as it's purely discussion, *but* without the site, the forum would be pretty useless, and I'd be paying for something that, well... 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Can this be an April Fool's joke? pretty please? 
<<<

We've mentioned before--last year, I believe--that we're too stuffy for that. 


I took down some of the smaller subpages this morning, but I really don't have time for anything else, right now. Off to work.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 11:23 am    
By Jason Doty

I'm really disappointed with Marvel and this current tactic that the've employed to once again insult the comic collecting community. It makes me believe that the fans that have been collecting there comics for the last 20 years are not as important as the fans they hope to gain. This was the most incredible site and resourse for those of us who can afford to collect and buy the majority of what they produce. 

If this is not an "April Fools" joke, I'd like to take the time to thank Russ and all the other board members who have devoted their time and knowledge in making this the most important and reliable resourse on the web. 

I trully hate to see all of this information go down the drain, I'm not the most computer savy person and wonder is their anyone out there who could copy and archive all of this info to disk, and provide copies to the devoted fans and members of this site, so that we might continue in another type of forum. It is a shame that this will no longer be a public forum, but it would be nice to preserve and persevere with this worthwhile project elsewhere. 

I know, I'm not the only one who wishes that we continue with this, and maybe as a last discussion before the site goes down we can discuss a way to continue on the side, with our small group of contributors. 

Thanks, Doty

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 12:15 pm    
By John Simons

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
to my knowledge, Marvel has no definite plans to do it. They just want to protect their *right* to do it.  
<<<

If they are allowed to do this, I just don't see where it ends. Next will they tell the Overstreet price guide to stop listing the worth of Marvel comics, in case Marvel someday wants to put out their own price guide? Maybe they will tell Paul he has to stop referring to the X-Men characters by name in his reviews, because they are trademarks of Marvel. 


Quote: 
>>>
I've said from the very beginning that if Marvel's not happy with it, I'll take it down. So should I do what I say I'll do?  
<<<

Yeah, but who is "Marvel"? Stan Lee? Joe Queseda? Avi Arad? or a bunch of suits in legal who collectively never created a thing in their entire lives? Everyone connected with Marvel may not agree with this bullying. 


Quote: 
>>>
I put in the work for fifteen years *before* ever making it publically available, first on racmu, then on a website. That won't stop. It just won't be around for the public.  
<<<

Maybe there's a more under-the-radar way of continuing the spirit of the site, a mailing list perhaps? A message board that was invitation-only or something? Still that would shut out a whole lot of people who just want to know whether Thunderboot ever appeared again. 

Aiigh this stinks. Stinks, I tell you!!!!
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 12:16 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I know, I'm not the only one who wishes that we continue with this, and maybe as a last discussion before the site goes down we can discuss a way to continue on the side, with our small group of contributors. 
<<<

As for continuing the discussion, we'd certainly all like to and we members of the MCP Board of Directors have been kicking around what options we realistically have. Obviously, this kind of came up out of nowhere, so we haven't decided on anything yet. I believe Russ has paid his server expenses at least through the end of the month, though, so I think we should at least be able to put a message up that says something like, "Sorry, Marvel has asked that we shut this site down. While the actual chronologies are no longer available we're still continuing the discussions and debates here" and then point a link to wherever.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 12:19 pm    
By John Simons

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I trully hate to see all of this information go down the drain, I'm not the most computer savy person and wonder is their anyone out there who could copy and archive all of this info to disk, and provide copies to the devoted fans and members of this site, so that we might continue in another type of forum. It is a shame that this will no longer be a public forum, but it would be nice to preserve and persevere with this worthwhile project elsewhere. 
<<<

Well I did save copies of the actual A-Z listings, but these boards contain dozens of pages of info-heavy posts, it would take days to save it all. The way Russ is talking, it will be coming down sooner rather than later...

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 12:35 pm    
By Jhaeman

I have to say I'm rather disappointed as well--hundreds of people have spent time working on books for this site, and it seems silly to back out when Marvel clearly has no legal leg to stand on. 

Russ, if you're not willing to stand up for the site, how about seeing if there is someone you could formally transfer ownership to who would be willing to try and keep things going?

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 01:15 pm    
By Jason Doty

John Simons wrote 
>>>
Well I did save copies of the actual A-Z listings, but these boards contain dozens of pages of info-heavy posts, it would take days to save it all. The way Russ is talking, it will be coming down sooner rather than later... 
<<<

John, hopefully Russ can be convinced to let you make a copy of the information contained in the site, but on a further note, I would be willing to pay for the cost of the discs and we could ask individuals to just pay for the cost of shipping them, to get a copy. 

I also think it would be of use to get a list of people who would would like to continue on the side and exchange e-mail addresses in case the site is taken down with much haste. Untill the board can come up with a sullotion to this delema, please keep in touch. My e-mail is XXXXXXXX, and on a future note, I would be willing to contribute or donate funds to help host some kind of members only private site, that the group could use to further post and debate our discussions. Once Again, Thanks Doty[/b]

Last edited by Jason Doty on 04 Apr 2005 09:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 01:20 pm    
By Dhall

Wow, this is a sad day. My email is xxxxxxx If things dissapear completely, please drop me a line and let me know what is going on.... 

Marvel really doesn't have a legal leg to stand on, but the mere threat of a cease and desist letter has taken down many a site in the past. 

Hopefully it would be possible to continue the work, non-publically

Last edited by Dhall on 04 Apr 2005 09:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 01:22 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

A strange decision for Marvel to take, considering that there are more conciliatory ways of preserving one's copyright. 

But when all's said and done, Russ HAS always said that he would take the site down if such a request was made. That pretty much resolves the issue. 

Thanks for all your hard work on the site, Russ. It's a shame Marvel don't appreciate it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 01:51 pm    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
As I mentioned, my attorney thinks we can win, but I've said from the very beginning that if Marvel's not happy with it, I'll take it down. So should I do what I say I'll do?  
<<<

One of my major points that I'm trying to make is this: a cease and desist email carries absolutely no weight of law. None. To the best of my knowledge, it's not even a mandatory formality that must be followed prior to starting a suit. It's nothing more than a corporate bullying tactic, and an way that they can shut down something that caught somebody's attention without having to spend a dime. 

I would argue that until and unless Marvel Comics shows a willingness to commit any money at all to suing you to shut it down, then they as a corporate entity are perfectly "happy" with it. 

For that matter, an email from a single member of their legal team doesn't indicate that anyone at an executive level is even aware of your site. Just a couple months ago, one of Nintendo's lawyers fired a cease and desist at Suicidegirls.com because one of their members included "Metroid" and "Zelda" as favorite activities. After the media flurry that followed the incident, Nintendo apologized for "making a mistake" and sent the threatened parties free Gameboys. 

Furthermore, after thinking further about this issue, I've come to the conclusion that the fair use defense isn't even necessary with regard to most of this site's content, as their is no violation of copyright in the first place. Think about it - what does Marvel have the rights to? Their words, the images, their character's names and likenesses, and to a lesser extent, the plots of their stories. This site reproduces none of those. 

What you have here is a research project to determine an (effectively) arbitrary system for sorting comic books. They don't own the rights to alphabetizing, or to putting things in publication order, how could they possibly own the rights to a system that you yourself invented? 

Aside from the infringing images I referred to earlier, there are two possible points of infringement: 

1) The orders which are based on the Official Marvel Index volumes. However, the information from those issues has been taken completely out of the context of those volumes and placed into your own organization method, they are not quoted directly, and they are at least roughly cited in the FAQ. You could consider adding a bibliography page to your site just to be on the safe side, but even as it stands, this feels like pretty clear Fair Use. 

2) Paul B's calendar includes direct quotes from comics. However, the quoted text is included in " marks, and citing is at least strongly implied. Again, pretty clear fair use for research from my perspective. 

In short, even though you have apparently always said that you would shut down if necessary, I don't see where you can go wrong by kicking up at least a little fuss to make sure that someone who matters over there actually gives two figs. 

Paul B - I'll have to see how much bandwidth I have available on my own webspace, but I would be willing to consider hosting your calandar project if it gets shut down here. 

Paul O'B - I love both your columns, keep up the good work. As long as we're looking at frivolous litigation, you should consider a suit against Marvel for emotional distress brought on by their erratic publishing schedule.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 01:53 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jhaeman wrote: 
>>>
Russ, if you're not willing to stand up for the site, how about seeing if there is someone you could formally transfer ownership to who would be willing to try and keep things going? 
<<<

Not willing to stand up for the site? Well, that's hardly the issue. I've been more than willing to staunchly defend the site from people who have wanted, or attempted to co-opt my work (and in the latter years, *our* work). 

There's no need to make Marvel the villain in this piece. There is no acrimony between us and Marvel. Their email was *very* respectful. They made mention that we had a clear love for the product, but had to take action to protect their future work. It was not a "cease and desist" letter, so much as a "we hope you will understand and agree that action is necessary, before further action becomes necessary" letter. 

And as for sites like Paul O'Brien's, clearly his reviews are the epitome of fair use. I mean, that's what "fair use" was created for, right?

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 02:13 pm    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
but had to take action to protect their future work. 
<<<

And that's where I have a problem with this whole thing. There is no such thing as a "right" over potential future work. If DC publishes a story where Flash travels back in time and kills his father after his own birth, Marvel can't start a lawsuit saying "Hey, that story is one that one of our writers might have possibly come up with in the future, but starring Cyclops." 

What you have here is not a copy, is not a derivative work, and it does not effect the potential market for the copyrighted work. 

There is no legal basis for a claim that your project interferes with the potential market for a product that does not exist in any form, and thus cannot be copyrighted. 

Take, for example, Dan Brown's The da Vinci Code. Since it was published, I have seen at least 4 "unofficial" guides to his book, which are basically art books of the paintings and statues he describes in his book. Could these books interfere with the potential market for a similar book that he might consider making? Sure. But he has no legal basis for going after them, because he had not made such a book before they came out. 

I understand full well that you've apparently said in the past that you would shut down the site if asked. I'm simply trying to explain why you were wrong to make that statement, and why you should change your mind.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Apr 2005 03:13 pm    
By rhod

Man, I'm pretty choked up right now.... 

Russ, I respect the fact you are standing by your decision to follow Marvel's wishes, though it upsets me... 
I sincerely hope Marvel does publish an Official Chronology Project, and make you guys the editors (having something 'Official' written by people who actually know what they're talking about would be a novelty these days, and well worth paying for). 

If anyone knows of anywhere on the net anything similar can be found (this includes Paul's calendar, if and when it finds a new home) please let me know on rhod@iamagulliblemuppet.com

Last edited by rhod on 05 Apr 2005 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 04:24 pm    
By jimmyppi

Very sad news... 

Russ, I assume that you want me to remove www.chronologygraph.com/searchthemcp.php. 
You can send me an e-mail about it if you remove the forum before I read any replies, jimmyppi@spray.se 

A thought: considering the number of times marvel have published new stories that contradict old stories they don't seem so interested in chronology. The reason for shutting down this site might be to make this sort of information unavailable to the fans so the people at marvel don't need to think of it so much. I don't know if they think so much about it now, but anyway...

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 09:06 pm    
By Oedivanth

Hi everyone - 

Not much of a contributor here, but I've loved this site ever since I found it a few years back. It really doesn't make sense for Marvel to be so antagonistic to a site that pretty much gives their product free advertising. Although not having the site around will probably save me money on back issues ("oh my goodness, Wolverine appeared there? I have to have that issue!"). Mile High Comics and Lone Star Comics will be the most sad in this regard, methinks. 

I, too, saw the date and hoped it was an April Fool's joke.  

I certainly respect the decision to take the site down if Marvel is grumbling. But I respect even more the people who have put a lot of effort into this site, in effect legitimizing Marvel's product. 

I'd make a Morituri reference, but I'm pretty sure that's not canon.  

Thank you all for the time you've put into studying this wonderful and complex universe that we all love. 

If anyone's planning on an e-mail list, please add esslashvee@hotmail.com to the mix. 

Good night, Gracie.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 09:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
Paul B - I'll have to see how much bandwidth I have available on my own webspace, but I would be willing to consider hosting your calandar project if it gets shut down here.  
<<<

Thanks for the offer, shandrakor. I'm seeing how things play out here and what my options are.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Apr 2005 09:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

There are developments. 

Stand by.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Apr 2005 09:52 pm    
By garbonzo

Unless the "developments" involve the phrase "oops" I don't know if I will be happy. 

garbonzo 

First Jack of Hearts, then Hawkeye. Now the Chronology Project? Marvel has truly gone too far!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Apr 2005 09:55 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I gotta tell ya -- the behind-the-scenes chatter among the Board of Directors is encouraging ... there certainly are a number of ways to carry on the work we've done here ... but I can't help thinking that maybe the time has come to actually go our separate ways on this thing. 

I mean, we've all got our various ways of chronologizing, and none of them match. Paul B.'s calendar doesn't look a THING like my maps ... Sean Kleefeld's got his way of doing things and so does Paul O'Brien ... when was the last time we could all AGREE on a big-picture chronology? 

If Marvel doesn't want us creating this work -- and we can't even agree on the order of the finished product -- why knock ourselves out trying to come up with some clandestine way of operating? It's pointless. 

Marvel's upcoming solicits fill me with dread, too. With "House of M" and "Mythos" coming up, plus the recent changes in "Iron Man", I feel pretty certain that they're going for a nice fat reboot -- erasing key pieces of our beloved characters' histories and origins and replacing them with movie-like versions, all to appeal to a new audience for whom the original tales don't resonate. 

If Marvel's busily deleting their history -- and they don't want us around anymore -- why should we fight to find a way to preserve the history they're busily ignoring? 

If we ARE going to try to secretly keep working -- I think we should just complete things up to "House of M", then draw a line under it, and call it a day. Move on to other, more rewarding hobbies. 

I dunno. What does everyone think? Is it WORTH it? Maybe it isn't worth it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Apr 2005 10:07 pm 
By Jason Doty

Jeph! Don't be discouraged. If Marvel does do a reboot, it would start from the point they make the change. I say we keep moving foward with this untill they create a reson for the reboot and if history is changed we start again from that point, not erase what has come before it. 

How many times has Marvel done this sort of thing than changed their mind. I'm sure everybody remembers Heroes: Reborn. 

What makes the project great is the fact that board of directors does debate and the site keeps evolving. Doing things in different ways helps iron out problems. And as far as finished projects, As long as Marvel is printing comics there will be no finished project. 

What is sad about this whole thing is that we as a comunity are conserned with what Marvel thinks about this site, instead of how we feel about it. This is a fan site, not a Marvel site. We are reviewing comics that we purchased and putting them in the order we believe they should go in, since when is that illegal. Marvel should be happy that we purchase the amount of comics that we do, because it keeps them in buisness. 

They should be concerned about what their customers want, not the other way around. 

To much valuable time and work have gone into this site, lets just find out what the objection to the site is, fix it if it is not legal and proceed from there. 

Please don't throw in the towel, Doty

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Apr 2005 10:37 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Crap on a bicycle. First Christopher Eccleston quits as Doctor Who, now this. 

Hopefully those developments Russ mentioned are positive ones, but I'd like to take my chance to say thanks to him and all the rest of the guys who made this such a great reference. I've been a minimal contributor at best, but I've enjoyed all of your chronological wranglings. Will we all look back fondly on the days of the Bendis War? Time will tell! 

Either way, I'm certain there are options for continuing in some form or another. Excelsior, as always! I'm off to start saving pages... Wonder if Marvel will come round and steal my hard drive?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 12:19 am    
By SeanCurtin

So, sites like the Marvel Directory and X-Fan copy content verbatim from out-of-print and currently in print Marvel reference works, and don't get shut down... but the MCP lists issue numbers in general chronological order and does? Apparently, the only way for a fansite like this to get a pass from Marvel is to write their new reference books for them for next to nothing - or for nothing at all; do the current crop of OHOTMU writers even get paid? Ugh. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 01:01 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Let's all take a deep breath. 

You know how you feel, when you go out to your mailbox, after a particularly stressful day at work, pop open the door, pull out the only envelope stuck in the back, and read on the face of the envelope, "Personal and Confidential"? Do your eyes narrow, and your pace quickens? I mean, no good news ever came in an envelope marked "Personal and Confidential." And so, you force yourself to open the envelope--perhaps after taking a stiff belt of whiskey--and pull out the single sheet that contains your fate and read: "You may be a Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes Winner!" First you inhale, then you exhale. Slowly, never realizing you had held your breath. 

Every day, we come here. Some of us, a dozen times a day, or more. And why? I suppose there are some cynics out there who would say, it's because we can't grow up, or because we truly are anal retentive, that some of us would debate endlessly over whether the Black Widow is right-handed or left-handed, and how that affects her chronology. And while all of that is probably true, the real reason is because we care. Simple as that. And if you have any doubts as to whether that's the case...well, open your eyes. The evidence is right in front of you. 

Your responses, and your support, and your...well, anguish, have blown us away. We salute you. 

Have you taken that deep breath, yet? Are we being audited by the IRS, or have we (possibly) won the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes? This is kind of like how, when you're the last one to close up after work, and you're walking across the empty parking lot to your car, and the echo of your own feet on the pavement makes you think someone is just over your shoulder, and you can't quite get the car key to fit in the door lock, and you just know those icy cold fingers are going to wrap around your heart and say: 

gotcha. 

Take a breath. Relax. 

Aaaaaand....we're back. Kudos to the Board of Directors for playing along. 

Back to work, everybody. 


watching: punk'd

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 01:15 am    
By shandrakor

There it is. The post I've been expecting since about noon. 

Kudos on tricking me into overcoming my embarassment about disappearing like I did and revealing my lurking self. I suppose I should probably get to work on those Tales to Astonish analyses. 

I do hope that everyone who read my posts remember them if they ever recieve a C&D. They don't mean shit, and unless you're doing something blatantly illegal, you should never submit to them  

The funny part is, my outrage doesn't come from an anti-corporate mindset. I personally love Big Business. I just really hate people who complain about Big Business screwing them over, when they're really screwing themselves by not understanding their rights.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 02:44 am    
By John Simons

Aaaaaaand...you guys suck. 

Sure wish I hadn't fired off those indignant e-mails to Matt Brady and Heidi MacDonald imploring them to expose Marvel for the scurrilous corporate weasels they are...  

Days like these make me wonder why I post under my real name. It would be nice to have one of those silly anonymous internet handles to hide behind right about now...say is there already somebody posting in the online comic community under the name "Dumbass" or is that up for grabs? 

Next year I am not even going to get out of bed on April Fools day. I mean it! 

and oh yeah, glad you're not going anywhere (although at this exact moment I can think of a few places I want to suggest you go...)
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 04:06 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

What? You mean... Hey, maybe that means Christopher Ecclestone IS still the Doctor! *goes and checks* 

Damn. 

That, and I just spent half an hour saving MCP files onto my hard drive. And it's bloody 7:00 PM on April 2nd! How late can you leave these things? A pox on your livers!
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 04:24 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

You're an evil man, Russ. 

Oh, and I commend your devotion to detail in taking down the AoA page yesterday...!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 04:59 am    
By rhod

As ever, the best jokes rely on their plausibility *shudder*

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 09:36 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
I just really hate people who complain about Big Business screwing them over, when they're really screwing themselves by not understanding their rights. 
<<<

I guess it's a good thing I wasn't complaining, or you would have been upset.  


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Next year I am not even going to get out of bed on April Fools day. I mean it! 
<<<

I don't believe anything I read on the internet on April 1. That's why it can be dangerous to post *real* news. 


watching: mary tyler moore show

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 09:43 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 
>>>
That, and I just spent half an hour saving MCP files onto my hard drive. 
<<<

I wonder how many people made backups, in a panic. Our user logs skyrocketed yesterday--and I'll pay for that at the end of the month--but it was worth it. 


Quote: 
>>>
And it's bloody 7:00 PM on April 2nd! How late can you leave these things? 
<<<

In Australia, sure. But the curtain was pulled back at one minute after midnight, official MCP time. 


watching: mary tyler moore show

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 09:44 am    
By lkseitz

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
and you just know those icy cold fingers are going to wrap around your heart and say: 

gotcha. 

Take a breath. Relax. 

Aaaaaand....we're back. Kudos to the Board of Directors for playing along. 
<<<

Told ya so! I've already apologized to Russ, but let me also apologize to the board for trying to ruin their April Fool's fun. 

What, but you say I just said, "truly a sad, sad day." Well, then you didn't see my original post. Go highlight my whole response. What, you say that text's too small to read? Oh, all right. Here it is: 

Quote: 
>>>
Truly a sad, sad day. But I still don't believe it for a second. My original response: I got halfway through the second response before remembering, "Hey, it's April Fool's Day!" Good one, Russ, but you'll be hearing from my lawyer about the near coronary you gave me!  
<<<

_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 10:04 am  
By Jason Doty

And to think, I was going to write a nasty letter to Wizard, explaining why Marvel sucked so bad. That was one helluva April fools joke, it definatley ruined my day. 

It went from a rush to copy and paste everything on the site, to debating on how we can continue on, to watching members of the board pack it in. I also enjoyed the line in the earlier post about being to stuffy to pull an April Fools joke. You guys had me fooled. 

It does beg the question though, Is this what would happen had Marvel sent you the letter, Russ? 

Ah, who cares, I'm just glad the site was here this morning!!! 

Peace Doty.  

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 10:31 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I also enjoyed the line in the earlier post about being to stuffy to pull an April Fools joke. 
<<<

Very carefully phrased. That's known as a non-denial denial. It's designed to make you *think* it's a denial, but if you read it carefully, it doesn't really address the issue at all. 


watching: mary tyler moore show

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:22 am    
By garbonzo

w54hliase:LJaeg;lmq3t 
maWEG k:lASDGk?lmASDK'weg kK'sdv'Askasdv <"AWEF 
IP[OASDG -9wet dv Sk'WEV,OMsdvCode: 
MKCEW[list=]ase tm'oSD V'l:WEF AOM"sdvO'ASDF O'AWLK S 

I had to invent a new language for my frustration over this!!!!!!!!  Grrrrrrrrrrrr.  First I bit into the caramel "apple" which someone had replaced with an onion.  Now this!  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh![/list] 

			*	*	*
Posted: 02 Apr 2005 02:53 pm    
By John Simons

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
It does beg the question though, Is this what would happen had Marvel sent you the letter, Russ? 
<<<

That's a good question. Would you really lay down without a fight, or was that part of the "joke"?

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 03:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'd rather not answer the question in the hypothetical. In every contact that I've ever had with anyone at Marvel, they've expressed their appreciation and respect for what we do here. I have no reason to believe that those concerns are anything other than needless. 


watching: cnn

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 03:54 pm    
By Oedivanth

I have a pretty good sense of humor...really, I do...but I actually didn't think this was too funny. You can't please everyone, I guess. I'm glad the site will be staying up.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 09:43 pm    
By Jim Smith

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I wonder how many people made backups, in a panic. Our user logs skyrocketed yesterday--and I'll pay for that at the end of the month--but it was worth it. 
<<<


I made one, but with my DSL it sure didn't take thirty minutes. Of course, I didn't bother to save the images. 

But I've always meant to make a backup anyway, in case the site went down without warning--I just never got around to it. So in a way, this is all a good thing... 

On the other hand, what was really frustrating me was that the site might go down without ever having closed the gap(s). How far are we from that, anyway?

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:01 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 
>>>
And it's bloody 7:00 PM on April 2nd! How late can you leave these things? 
<<<

In Australia, sure. But the curtain was pulled back at one minute after midnight, official MCP time. 
<<< 


See, I'd already survived April 1. I spent a whole day of disregarding everything on the web, and ignoring people who point out that my shoelaces are untied. April 2 comes around, and my Fool's Day Warning Alarms have been packed up for the year. 

That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Apr 2005 02:46 am    
By Starman

Ooooh, that was a cruel April Fools joke. I will send you my medical bills.  

*Just kidding. *
_________________
John Hartigan: 
"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 12:07 am    
By Kevin W.

You know, I stopped by the MCP on April 1st, saw what was going on, laughed for a moment and quickly fled.  I haven't really returned till tonight. Being on the Board of Directors meant I was in on the joke, but having been on the end of a few April Fool's Day jokes myself, I didn't want to be here when all of you learned of the joke and began rioting. I'm glad to see none of the Board of Director's has been lynched!  

Truthfully, though, it is nice to see all of you filled with so much dedication to the MCP. That just means what Russ is trying to accomplish here is meaningful to a lot of people out there. There are some days when I wonder if chronology in comic books is dead, but respones like the ones seen in this thread give me hope. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2005 12:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

... Oh, thank God! It was a joke? 

 then :relieved: 

WHEW!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2005 08:03 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Those of you who left your email addresses in the bodies of the messages may want to consider going back and editing those addresses out, so that spammers can't harvest your address. 


watching: forensic files

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2005 08:32 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

John Simons wrote: 
Yeah, right! What kind of fools do you think we are? You're gonna have to do better than that, silly boy. 


Nice try, John. Too bad "Somebody" quoted your real original post three messages down from it.  


watching: degrassi tng

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2005 10:10 pm    
By John Simons

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Nice try, John. Too bad "Somebody" quoted your real original post three messages down from it.   
<<<

Who me? I think those House of M retcons are already starting to kick in... <whistles innocently>

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 03 Apr 2005 05:54 am    Post subject: Kaluu
By rhod

Kaluu has entries missing: 

**ST 148/2 -FB 
**ST 147/2 
**ST 148/2 
**ST 149/2 
**ST 150/2 
DRSTR2 81 
ST2 8/2

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2005 06:45 am    
By Arthur
Director

KALUU 
**ST 148/2-FB 
**ST 147/2 
**ST 148/2 
**ST 149/2 
**ST 150/2 
==>DRSTR2 81 should be removed. Kaluu is not in DRSTR2 81. At best (and I think this is stretching) it might be considered a BTS entry. Kaluu was banished to Limbo in ST 150/2. The destruction of the Book of Vishanti in DRSTR2 81 freed him. 
ST2 8/2 
**ST2 9/2 
**ST2 10/2 
**ST2 11/2 
**ST2 12/2-BTS 
**ST2 13/2 
**ST2 14/2 
**ST2 15/2 
**ST2 16/2 
**ST2 17/2

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 09 Apr 2005 04:00 am    Post subject: Missing appearances in Infinity War
By jannepie

I went through Infinity War #1-6 and I noticed a few missed appearances. 

Weapon Omega doppelganger in #3 p34-35. 

Aurora #4 p8p4 
Northstar #4 p9p6 
Spider-Woman II #4 p13p2 (on screen) 
Spider-Woman II doppelganger #4 p3 hit by Namorita doppelganger 

Karnak doppelganger #5 p34p4 
Living Lighning #5 p34p4 
Nova doppelganger #5 p34p4 
Shaman #5 p34p3 
Vision doppelganger #5 p34p4 and p35 

Goddess #6 
Judge Kray-Tor #6 
Sasquatch doppelganger #6 p2 fighting Wolverine 
Thanos doopelganger #6 p3 fighting Thanos 

And I believe Quasar is one of the people in the group shot in #6 where Magus holds them in stasis but I don't know if that's chronologically possible.

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Posted: 09 Apr 2005 03:31 pm    Post subject: Ningal in Chamber of Chills#3, not #4
By Enda80

Ludi was in Chamber of Chills#4, Ningal in #3 

Journalist Reginald Atkins notices Marcia Trent, a girl without a shadow. She is the daughter of archaeologist Edward Trent, who found a statue of Ningal. The statue was placed in the British Museum. However, Edward disappeared....and Marcia lost her shadow. The authorities had the statue walled up. 

Marcia convinces Atkins to help break in and see if her father's body is walled up with the statue. They do so....and the statue comes to life and kills Atkins. Marcia reveals that she serves Ningal. 

NINGAL 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 3-FB 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 3 
DRSTR2 35 
DRSTR2 36 
DRSTR2 37

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Posted: 10 Apr 2005 07:07 am    Post subject: Deathlok characters, actually, since.......
By Enda80

Actually, Major Simon Ryker in the Deathlok stories comes from an alternate Earth that has been eliminated as a possible future for Earth-616, you may wish to split up his entry. 

RYKER, MAJOR SIMON 
SVTU 4 

I believe he also appeared in Marvel Spoltlight I#27. 


RYKER, MAJOR SIMON [DEATHLOK UNIVERSE] 
{AT 25} 
AT 26 
AT 27 
AT 28 
AT 30 
AT 31 
AT 32 
AT 33 
AT 34 
AT 35

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 26 Mar 2005 02:42 pm    Post subject: Recent X-chronology -- Updated Edition
By Paul Bourcier
Director

EDITED POST: 

Heres the newest update to the recent X-chronology, reflecting recent discussions, contributions, and updates*. I extended this back to a point several days after Xornetos destruction of Manhattan, following UX 443, X 156, XCAL3 4, and XX 46. 

(*These include the ever-shifting placement of SECWAR, Jephs analysis of SABRE2, the juggling of Enemy of the State tie-ins, added notes such as those for Constrictor, and the inclusion of new comics such as XU 8 and X4 5.) 
The NIGHTCRAWLER, GAMBIT, and X-23 series are not included yet (I do have GAM4 3), and JUBILEE #3 and up arent here either. Neither is X-FACTOR: SHATTERSTAR, which just started. 

Because of the limitations of post length, Im splitting this up into parts. First up, the scenes and stories going from early July to the end of September: 


WEAPON X v2 #18  FB 
One day, several weeks before WX 18. Cyclops notes that Cable recently informed the X-Men that Neverland is a myth, following WX2 13. Logan mentions the files he accessed in the Weapon Plus compound, which places this flashback after X 146, and by extension, after X 150 (30-31). Logan tells the X-Men that its time to take down Weapon X and that the way to do it is to plant a mole in the organization. Among those gathered is Xavier, who is sitting, though not in a wheelchair; he must be crippled at this point, given that this flashback must occur after X 150 (30-31). Chamber volunteers to be the mole. 

WEAPON X v2 #15 
Perhaps the same day as WX2 18-FB. We see one corner of the Xavier Institute, in which Chambers room is located; this structure must be part of the new facility, not the one destroyed in X 147-FB. Chambers act to get him noticed by Weapon X goes into effect: he causes trouble in a Manhattan bar and the X-Men  Cyclops, Archangel, Husk, Wolverine, and Iceman (who must be using an image inducer to make himself look normal)  try to talk him down, but when Jono lashes out at them, they subdue him and hand him over to the authorities. Hours later, Brent Jackson shows up in Chambers prison cell to offer him a place in Weapon X. We surmise that after this point, Logan spends most of the summer away from the Institute. We see green grass and trees and warm picnic weather at Xaviers, but we also see autumn leaves, which must be topical. 

EXILES #46 
One day. The Exiles return to the mainstream Marvel Universe and their new member Namora storms off to confront Namor. The Institute is a building site; theyve made considerable headway on rebuilding it, but its obviously very far from finished  this is the only appearance which clearly shows the Institute somewhere between wrecked and more or less finished. Sub-Mariner, Mr. Fantastic, Juggernaut, Beast, Nightcrawler, Angel Salvadore and her brood all appear. More details? 

EXILES #47 
The same day as EXILES 46. Sub-Mariner and all of the FF appear. Sub-Mariner hauls Namora off to the FF. More details? 

EXILES #48 
The same day as EXILES 47. It is a few months before X 162, but also a few weeks before X 163; the former is probably right. The Exiles pick up Beak and leave the mainstream Marvel Universe, leaving Nocturne behind (leading to her showing up as a member of Exodus Brotherhood in X 161). Sub-Mariner, the FF, Angel and the brood, Beast, Nightcrawler, and Exodus appear. 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER #1  FB 
One night. Contract killer Harvey Long breaks out of prison and learns of a sanctuary called Erewhon from a guy named Gottlieb. Full moon. 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER #1 (17-22) 
One day, probably a couple of days after W/P 1-FB. It is ten years after W/P 1 (16). Ive placed this series between PUN7 6 and 7; if this is right, then this segment should occur long enough after PUN7 6 for Castle to heal from injuries sustained in that issue (which Ive placed on June 20). As Harvey Long nears Erehon, he is pursued by the Punisher and encounters Logan. Full moon. 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER #2 
The same night as W/P 1 (17-22). Details? 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER #3 
Details? 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER #4 
The same night as W/P 3. Logan is shot through the head with an arrow, but manages to string up the Atheist. Van Daemon cant bring himself to shoot the Punisher, and Castle kills him. Punisher goes on a killing spree and Logan and Castle reconnoiter. The citizens of Erewhon revolt when they discover that Punisher was lured to the sanctuary to cull the herd. Full moon. 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER #5 (1-13) 
The same night as W/P 4. Logan and Castle battle Napoleon, Gottlieb, and the revolting mob and are subdued. Gottlieb dies and the Atheist escapes. 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER #5 (14-23) 
The early morning after W/P 5 (1-13). Napoleon sets Wolverine and Punisher up to fight each other, but Castle kills Napoleon. A guy named Glasses frees Logan and Castle and convinces the Erewhon mob to stop and rebuild. 

WEAPON X v2 #16 
One day, long enough after WX 15 for the doctors at Weapon X to give Chamber a new face through surgery (as noted in WX2 19). It is several years after WX 16-FB. This story must occur after X 150 (1-31), as monitors in the Weapon X compound show a recorded video of Weapon XVs attack on Magneto. Brent Jackson shows Jono around the Weapon X compound and offers him a trial assignment, to kill John Sublime. Logan, probably here after UX 443, is seen doing surveillance on Jono. Green trees. 

WEAPON X v2 #17 
The same day as WX2 16. Chamber meets Logan in a movie theater (in a place where its raining) and discuss Jonos assignment to infiltrate Weapon X for the X-Men. Hours later, Jono agrees to kill Sublime, and that evening, he, Jackson, Sauron, and Wild Child attack Sublimes headquarters, where it appears to be a normal business day. Sublime and his U-Men root out the skulking Jono. 

WEAPON X v2 #18 
The same night as WX2 17. It is several weeks after WX2 18-FB. Jackson, Sauron, and Wild Child save Chamber, who then finds and supposedly kills John Sublime and reports back to Wolverine. 

WOLVERINE v3 #7 
One day. It cannot be two months or a couple months after W3 6, but rather six months, as noted in W3 9; given Logans dream about the deceased Jean in W3 12, this issue probably occurs after X 154 (23). Blaines reference to having served in Vietnam with Logan over thirty years ago, now must be topical. Outside of El Paso, Wolverine interrupts a convenience store robbery and discovers a tractor trailer full of the corpses of illegal Mexican immigrants who died of heatstroke. Logan heads into El Paso to enlist the help of an old friend, Garcia Nestor, in tracking down the immigrant smuggling ring. Meanwhile, in Portland, ATF agent Cassie Lathrop tries fruitlessly to track Logan down, and just as shes given up, she spies his El Paso activities on the evening news. Green grass in Oregon. 

WOLVERINE v3 #8 
The day after W3 7. Cassie Lathrop has traveled to El Paso, where she shows Logans sketch to the Border Patrol. Meanwhile, Logan tracks down Ian Ritter, the man who organized the truckload of immigrants, but when he confronts him, Ritter is killed by his assistant, who then sets the building on fire. The Border Patrol shows up, and Cassie leaps into the fire to save Logan, who then has to save her. That night, acting on the information he got from Ritters assistant, Logan swims the Rio into Mexico. 

WOLVERINE v3 #9 
The early morning after W3 8. It is six months after W3 6 (which I already placed in February). In Mexico, Logan confronts some of Rojas men, while in El Paso, Cassie tracks down Nestors bar. Logan forces one of the men to drive him to Rojas estate. but the other two call ahead and many armed guards are waiting when Logan arrives. He cuts them all down and comes face-to-face with Rojas, who is revealed to be a pregnant woman. 

WOLVERINE v3 #10 (1-17) 
The same early morning as W3 9. Its closing time at Nestors bar, but Cassie continues to drink and refuses to leave. Meanwhile in Mexico, Logan confronts Rojas, who reveals that the immigrants had all swallowed heroin-filled condoms and were smuggling them into the US. She taunts Logan, daring him to kill her, but he refuses, struggling to control himself. As soon as he storms out, Rojas goes into labor. Logan returns to Nestors bar to sleep, and finds Cassie waiting. She asks to stay, and he offers her the couch. 

WOLVERINE v3 #11  FB 
The same night (twenty hours after) as W3 10 (1-17). Logan returns to Rojas estate, where he helps deliver her baby. 

WOLVERINE v3 #10 (18-21) 
The early morning after W3 11-FB. When Cassie awakens, Logan is gone; Nestor said he went back across the river, with unfinished business and at that moment, Logan bursts through the door of the bar, holding a crying newborn. 

WOLVERINE v3 #11 (1-13) 
The same day as W3 10 (18-21). Logan returns to Rojas estate and searches for personal information, discovering that she has a sister who is married and living in Illinois. Green trees and bushes in El Paso. 

WOLVERINE v3 #11 (14-18) 
The day after W3 11 (1-13). Logan tracks down the sister and convinces her to adopt Rojas baby. We see snow on the ground in Illinois, but this must be topical. 

WOLVERINE v3 #11 (19-20) 
One day, probably a few days after W3 11 (14-18). The Murillos have traveled to El Paso from Illinois. 

WOLVERINE v3 #11 (21) 
Perhaps the night of the day after W3 11 (19-20). Logan shows up at Cassie Lathrops house, and is invited in for the night. Green grass and green trees and rain in Portland. Logan is wearing his dog tags in this arc, suggesting that this is before he returns to his Reload costume in AX3 1. 

WOLVERINE v3 #12 
One early morning, shortly after W3 11 (21). Logan has a dream about Jean while staying at Cassie Lathrops place. A newspaper headline reads Capt. America captures Osama, with a picture of Cap, but this is probably an artist joke. 
Leafy trees in Oregon. Full moon. 

WOLVERINE v3 #13 (1-10) 
One day, shortly after W3 12 and more than two weeks after Sabretooths previous appearance (likely X 142). Hired by a shady company, Sabretooth hunts a feral woman known as the Native in British Columbia. When she slaughters his hunting party and defeats him, Sabretooth decides to try to get Wolverine to do the hard work for him. It is spring, and we see gray skies and snow in B.C. 

WOLVERINE v3 #13 (11-16) 
The day after W3 13 (1-10). In the early hours of morning, Logan sneaks out of Cassie Lathrops house and speeds away. We see evergreens, green bushes, and rain in Oregon. Presumably that night, Sabretooth gives his report to the shady company that hired him. 

WOLVERINE v3 #13 (17-22) 
Possibly the day after W3 13 (11-16). Sabretooth tracks Logan to a Montana diner and gives him a file on the Native. Green grass and bushes in Montana. 

WOLVERINE v3 #14 (1-11) 
One day, probably a few days after W3 13 (17-22). Sabretooth reports back to the shady company that Wolverine is on the Natives trail. Meanwhile, in British Columbia, Logan tracks down the Natives burrow and discovers cave painting-style art that indicates that she escaped the Weapon X project at the same time he did. We see leafless trees and green grass and bushes in B.C. Full moon. 

WOLVERINE v3 #14 (12-22) 
The morning after W3 14 (1-11). Logan and the Native encounter one another and, after a savage fight, they kiss. We see leafless trees and green grass and bushes in B.C. 

WOLVERINE v3 #15 
The morning after W3 14 (12-22). Sabretooth tracks Wolverine and the Native down, and although he gets the drop on them, the Native defeats him again and drives him off. She then leads Logan to her home, a cabin in the woods, that he vaguely remembers. We see evergreens and snow-capped bushes in B.C. 

WOLVERINE v3 #16 
The same day as W3 15. Logan tries to get answers about their shared past from the Native, but they are interrupted by three helicopters full of strike troops from the shady company. Logan destroys two of the 'copters and their men, but the third captures the Native, and Logan is hit with a high-voltage taser. Hours later, he regains consciousness to find Sabretooth standing over him. Green grass in B.C. Full moon. 

WOLVERINE v3 #17 (1-6) 
The same day as W3 16. Native arrives at the Workshop, Dr. Vapor quotes a day at least for decontamination and the better part of a week for a successful operation, but is told to rush things. Logan awakens and examines the dead company men, and Sabretooth explains that they both want vengeance on the company. Full moon. 

WOLVERINE v3 #17 (7-12) 
The day after W3 17 (1-6). Logan reaches Sabretooths humvee and disables the bomb the company had left underneath it. They begin to drive. 97 minutes later, Dr. Vapor cuts at Natives neck with a scalpel. Later, Dr. Vapor inserts a radioactive pellet into the Natives side. After coming out of surgery, Vapor claims that theyll be ready to operate by morning. 

WOLVERINE v3 #17 (13-21) 
The early morning after W3 17 (7-12). Sabretooth shows Logan where the Workshop is located, but when they arrive, Logan runs him over with their Humvee, and proceeds to storm the Workshop alone. Dr. Vapor successfully harvests the Natives ovaries. Green grass and bushes in B.C. and green trees in Montana. Full moon. 

WOLVERINE v3 #18 
The same early morning as W3 17 (7-12). Wolverine kills a bunch of guards at the Workshop and reaches the Native. He removes the radiation pellet and kills Dr. Vapor, and the two escape. Sabretooth kills Murray and Willoughby, and decides to go after the Native and kill her too. Full moon. 

WOLVERINE v3 #19  FB (3-4) 
The day after W3 18. This flashback begins two days, eleven hours, seven minutes before W3 19. Sabretooth tracks down Wolverine and the Native, who have returned to the cabin in B.C. 

WOLVERINE v3 #19  FB (5-19) 
The early morning after W3 19-FB (3-4). Sabretooth incapacitates Logan and kills the Native (and Logans unborn child). This flashback ends one day, five hours, seventeen minutes ago before W3 19. 

WOLVERINE v3 #19  FB (1-2) 
The early morning of the day after W3 19-FB (5-19). Nightcrawler (in street clothes) waits for Logan at Jos bar in Manhattan. 

WOLVERINE v3 #19 
The same early morning as (twenty-six minutes after) W3 19-FB (1-2). Logan arrives at Jos bar to have Kurt give the Native last rites. 

WEAPON X v2 #19  FB 
 One morning, Marrows Gene Nation conducts their sixth attack on a Weapon X-related facility in as many months. This means that this flashback occurs at least six months, inclusive, after WX2 13 (12-21). 

WEAPON X v2 #19 
 The day after WX2 19-FB 
 Maverick infiltrates an old safehouse of Cables, only to discover that its been taken over by Marrow and her Gene Nation, the terrorist successors to Nathans underground movement. Marrow convinces Maverick to join Gene Nation. Unbeknownst to them, Weapon Zero is in the facility. At Weapon X headquarters, Chamber discovers a room of telepaths. 

WEAPON X v2 #20 
 Continues directly from WX2 19. Chamber contacts Logan, who is at the Hellfire Club, and reports on the telepaths; he plans to stow away on a transport about to leave for Neverland. Weapon Zero forces Marrow to divulge Grand Central Station as the location of Gene Nations current job, and Zero hurries there to face Maverick, who he believes to be the terrorist. In reality, the terrorist is a living bomb who explodes herself. In the rubble, Weapon Zero unmasks Maverick. 
 Logan does not appear in any costume during this story arc 

WEAPON X v2 #21 
 Continues directly from WX2 20. Maverick turns out to be Bolt, and Weapon Zero turns our to be Maverick. Bolt dies and Zero hunts down Gene Nation, slaying hordes of operatives, but sparing Marrow. Zero reports back to Weapon X headquarters, which he finds deserted. Logan tracks Chamber to Neverland, which he finds deserted. 
 Full moon 

WEAPON X v2 #23 
 Continues directly from WX2 21. The message Roanoke is discovered by Logan at Neverland, Zero at Weapon X headquarters, and Fantomex at the empty grave of John Sublime. 
 Full moon 

WEAPON X v2 #24 (1-16) 
 Continues directly from WX2 23. Fantomex goes to Weapon X headquarters, where he battles Agent Zero until they decide to work together. Logan takes a train to Roanoke. 

WEAPON X v2 #24 (17-22) 
 The morning after WX2 24 (1-16), Fantomex and Zero arrive at Roanoke, where they encounter Logan. 

WEAPON X v2 #25 
 Continues directly from WX2 24 (17-22). Logan recounts his unsuppressed memories of killing innocents as a Weapon X operative. John Sublime emerges alive and well. He tells Logan, Fantomex, and Zero of a war between the Weapon X and Weapon Plus programs and sends the U-Men to kill them. The heroes escape. 
 Green grass and trees in Roanoke 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #1 (1-11p3) 
 Kitty arrives at the Institute with her luggage and her hair cut (an inaccurate artist interpretation?)  she remarks to herself, Nothing has changed. The place was destroyed, and now it looks like nothing happened. No time has passed. 
 There is no obvious construction happening at the Institute 
 Kitty immediately walks into an indoor school assembly at which (after an introductory speech by Scott) Emma introduces the senior staff (all in civilian clothing)  Since Professor Xavier is away on sabbatical, Mr. Summers and myself will be acting heads of school. Doctor McCoy and Miss Pryde will round out the senior staff along with Logan, who is...elsewhere (perhaps in WX2 25?) 
 Emma pulls a stunt at the assembly that she labels the first lesson  presumably classes begin after this point 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #1 (11p4-17) 
 The morning after ASTONX3 1 (1-11). Logan shows up in Scotts and Emmas bedroom and a brawl ensues over Jean. 
 Scott: Were a super hero team. And I think its time we started acting like one. Logan: Ho, whoa, wait...Is this gonna be about tights? Scott: Its about everything. Truth, perception... Logan: Here come the tights... Scott: Sorry, Logan. Super heroes wear costumes. And quite frankly, all the black leather is making people nervous. Beast: Am I the only one dying to see the outfits?  The fuss raised by Logan over the prospect of costumes places this segment before any of his appearances in his Reload costume (e.g. X 157). 
 Scott: Avengers, Fantastic Four  they dont get chased through the streets with torches. (Apparently the Avengers havent disbanded yet, since Scott refers to them in the present tense; the impression is that Disassembled hasnt happened yet.) 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #1 (18p3-18p5) 
 Logan and Kitty wait for Lockheed to arrive. Kitty notes that Lockheed wanted to fly on his own. I thought he'd beat me here... Logan says, The dragonll show. I did. Kitty responds, Big entrance, and Logan replies Sorry about that. Wasnt planning it, I just...sometimes I go off. This dialog implies that this segment occurs later the same day as ASTONX3 1 (14-17). 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

UNCANNY X-MEN #444 (1-7) 
 A sunny summer afternoon  green grass and trees 
 Baseball game between Storms team (the visitors, with Cannonball, Wolverine, Magma, Sage, Rogue, Gambit) and the home team (Beast, Cyclops, Husk, Kitty Pryde, Emma Frost, and Rachel Grey  the newly-minted Marvel Girl), with Dani and Shan in the ersatz broadcast booth  everyones in civilian clothing 
 Kitty has long hair (wow, that haircut grew out fast!) 
 Lockheed is present 
 Gambit is sighted 
 Students are present in the stands 
 Scott: Why are you on Storms team, Wolverine? Isnt your place here, with the Institute? Logan: I make my own place, bub. Just like I choose my own friends. Scott: Whats that supposed to mean? Logan: Stay focused, Scotty. (It appears that Logan is irked at Scott, quite possibly still holding a grudge about Scotts relationship with Emma following Jeans death.) 

X-MEN #157 (1-6) 
 Early rumblings of the coming of Xorn II occur in China, where someone references a local Chinese superstition revolving around the month of August 
 Apparently, its morning  Alex (in Reload costume) is having coffee (and presumably breakfast) and Annie suggests to him, Lets play hooky today and go to the park. 
 Alex tells Annie, Scotts setting up the new teams, and he put me in charge of one of them...so we have to make sure everyones cool with the switch-ups...start drills and practices... 

X-MEN #157 (7-22) 
 With a taxi waiting, Mrs. Guthrie leaves Jay at the Institute with his luggage  apparently Jay is being dropped off at the Institute and, if this occurs after ASTONX3 (1-11), then Jay already has missed one assembly, the one in which the senior staff was introduced 
 Jay: Mom...if I had wanted to come to mutant school, I would have said so. I wouldnt have kept my wings hidden from you and everyone, and -- Mrs. G: Joshua, if you had really wanted your wings hidden from everyone, you wouldnt have revealed them onstage to half the town during your rock and roll show. 
 Mrs. G: On some level, you wanted this, Joshua. Its all right to be proud of what you are, and at the same time feel ashamed. Jay: I am not ashamed! Mrs. G.: Well, whatever you are, this school is better equipped to deal with it than I am. It helped your brother and sister a great deal. They became X-Men... (No mention of Melody here as having been enrolled previously, so she may be attending for the first time now. Mrs. G. may already have bid her goodbye prior to this scene just before leaving.) 
 Jay is greeted by Alex, who introduces himself and Sammy, who is to be Jays roommate. Sammy: Scott Summers asked us to show you around. Jay: Whos Scott Summers? Alex: Scotts the new headmaster of the school.  As noted, Jay did not attend the assembly in ASTONX 3 1 (1-11). 
 Throughout, Jay is called Josh. (Maybe Cannonball is showing Melody around and given the friction between Sam and Jay, Scott suggested Alex as tour guide for Jay. This is not an official tour, organized for groups of students  like that shown in NX 1  this is probably a special courtesy to a member of the Guthrie family; it still didnt excuse Jay from having to take the tour in NX 1.) 
 Juggernaut is back in his classic brown costume 
 Touring the Danger Room, Jay sees Juggernaut for the first time and is introduced to Iceman, who argues with Alex about Juggernaut. This prompts Alex to say, Lets go talk to Scott about changing your assignment to one of the other teams, shall we? Bobby: What do you mean, youre going to talk to Scott about changing me to another team? You dont have that kind of authority. Youre not team leader. Alex: As of today, yes I am. As one of the original students, Im surprised you dont check the school bulletin board more frequently. 
 The tour passes by the gym, where we see Rachel and Bishop working out in gym clothes. 
 The tour goes through the greenhouse, where they see Storm  Jay: She was hot. Who was she? Sammy: That was Ororo  Storm. Awesome, isnt she?...But if you think shes hot, wait until you see Emma Frost. Woof. 
 The greenhouse has been finished for weeks 
 The tour passes through the cafeteria, where Rogue and Gambit (in costume) are getting gumbo (so its not breakfast  probably lunch)  the two join along and ask to be unassigned from Alexs team as they want time for themselves and not be running missions 
 In Scotts office, everyone has problems with the team assignments  
 Nightcrawler (in Reload costume) says, Scott, my friend, you know this cant work -- (so its apparently before the Danger Room scene in UX 444 in which he thinks he should work with Ororo and Logan more often) 
 Archangel says, Genosha?! I dont want to go to Genosha! 
 Beast (in Morrison leather) says, This is an untenable situation, Scott -- (probably because Hank feels that Gambit should not be assigned to a team, given his remarks in examining Remy in UX 444) 
 Kitty (in long hair and pre-Reload leather) says, Wait, I thought you didnt need me anymore? This may be a reference to an unseen conversation in which Kitty was told that shed be on the Institute staff  the reason for her moving back to Westchester in ASTONX3 1 (1-11)  but would not be needed on a combat team. 
 Wolverine (in his Reload costume) says, Listen, bub, I appreciate the faith in me, but I cant be on all teams (perhaps Scott made the decision to add Logan to the XSE team after the baseball game in UX 444) 
 Jubilee says, Please, please, please let me be on Paiges team (Paige has a team?) 
 Sage says, Why am I even here? 
 Northstar says, Am I expected just to teach?! 
 Others present: Polaris, Husk, Lockheed 
To which Scott replies, ...No adjustments will be made to the team assignments! Period! 
 Scott is wearing his Reload costume (minus the cowl) 
 Right from there, the tour proceeds to Cerebra, where Emma (in Morrison costume) tells them, I have an assignment that will take all your minds off this current nonsense....A five-hour flight on a X-plane should bring you all together harmoniously, dont you think? 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

UNCANNY X-MEN #444 (8-11) 
 The Institute is mostly completed, but we do see scaffolding and construction equipment there. 
 Sage uses her cyber glasses to call up web database icons, incl. the Avengers, the FF, the Hellfire Club, Purity, White House; no implications that she actually enters those databases 
 Beast, Sunspot, Vange Whedon, and assorted students are poolside at Xaviers 
 Melody and Jay Guthrie mug for a TV camera (presumably a live broadcast by MBS-TV, since the reporters name is on screen) and Sam (in XSE costume) shoos the media away  Sam: You, Jay, should know better! Jay: Youre not the boss of me, not now, not ever! (Jay should be here after he was dropped off at the Institute in X 157.) 
 Beast (I suppose fresh from his swim) examines Gambit (no bandage)  Gambit: I check out perfect, nest-ce pas? Beast: Im sorry, Gambit. But both Storm and I feel you need more time in rehab. Just to be sure your restored powers are as perfect as you claim. The implication is that the exam is entirely related to Remys powers, not to blindness. Our theory: Storm requested Beast to examine Gambit because Remy was determined to join his team on the China assignment given just prior to this in X 157. 
 Green grass and trees in Westchester 

X-MEN #157 (23-25) 
 After that five-hour flight, Havok, Polaris, Iceman, Juggernaut, Wolverine, Rogue, and Gambit (who we determine has ignored Beasts advice) head to China where a tear in the magnetic field leads them to Xorn II. 

X-MEN #158 
 Continues directly from X 157 (7-25). The China adventure continues  the X-Men battle and defeat eight Chinese immortals. In the melee, Gambit is blinded and Xorn IIs head cracks open, creating a black hole. 
 Sammy tries to interest Jay in socializing at the Institute  Sammy: So, uh, Josh...I dont know, you wanna play catch or something? Jay: Call me Jay, Sammy. My life as Josh is over. Jay is what the guys in my band call me. (Apparently brother Sam also calls him that, but the name probably originated with the band.) 
 Jay talks to Sammy about his dead girlfriend. 
 Jay and Sammy catch fellow students talking to a tree (Black Tom) 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

X-MEN #159 
 Continues directly from X 158. Havok manages to contain Xorn and sends most of his team, except the bickering Cain and Bobby, to find Xorns helmet. Both groups encounter the Collective Man and the Chinese army. 
 Gambits eyes are bandaged 
 Jay familiarizes himself with Xaviers 
 Sammy reports to Emma that he thinks Black Tom is on the grounds 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

X-MEN #160 
 Continues directly from X 159. Thanks in large part to Iceman and Polaris, the two groups of X-Men defeat the Collective Man and the Chinese army. They find the containment helmet and get it on Xorn. 
 That night, Alex and Annie have a talk (picking up from X 157) and Sammy shows Cain where he thought he saw Black Tom  its now dinner time: theyre serving lasagna in the cafeteria 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 
 Full moon 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #1 
 The Institute appears fully constructed 
 Cyclops and Emma (in their new costumes, so its likely after ASTONX3 6) introduce themselves to a group of new students, which include Jay (who wears an X shirt), and they give the kids a tour (this would be Jays second tour, following X 157; although Scott was the one who arranged for Jays first tour, apparently the overly organized, anal retentive Cyclops figured another tour was necessary  he even slated Noriko Ashida for this tour, even though shes been around for months!)  the tour includes the Danger Room (dont they all?) 
 Luna: Dont you have orientation for the new semester? Noriko: I dont know why I even need to be there! Ive been at the school for weeks now...and I watched it being rebuilt. 
 Cyclops: There will be a school-wide assembly on Monday. 
 Sofia has been in the States for what? Only a year?  since NM2 1 (5-7) 
 David Alleyne and Noriko Ashida are 17, Sofia Mantega and Josh Foley are 16, and Laurie Collins is 15, making this story occur between one and three years after NM2 11-FB (8), in which Laurie is 13 
 The kids sneak into the Danger Room and run into trouble 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #2 (1-9) 
 Continues directly from NX 1. Surge and Dust get off on the wrong foot as roommates. Cyclops (in his Reload costume) confronts Surge about the Danger Room escapade and tells her she must have her gauntlets looked at tomorrow. Afraid that the students are being trained to be X-Men, David intends to leave Xaviers. 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #2 (10-17) 
 The day (the next morning) after NX 2 (1-9). Jay Guthrie meets Danis and Emmas students. Dani reassures her students about new school policies to be announced at Mondays assembly. 
 Julian: Hey, you the new guy? Josh Guthrie? Jay: Its Jay. Im not Josh anymore. My old life is over. 
 Jay thinks of Icarus as his code name and meets the soon-to-be New Mutants and Hellions 
 Iceman introduces himself to the soon-to-be New Mutants and Hellions 
 Dani gives her students training costumes 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

UNCANNY X-MEN #444 (12-14) 
 Sage uses her cyber glasses to call up a camera shot of the Danger Room, where we see Rogue (in a generic X-training costume) escorting students for a session that was booked for them, but Storm, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine (all in standard X-training costumes) are running through a session themselves; if students are signed up for the Danger Room, the implication is that the school year has begun. (There is no evidence that this scene has to occur at the same time as the previous scenes in Sages cyber glasses. The two different scenes with the Beast  poolside and in the med lab  suggest that Sage may be checking in at different times.) 
 Nightcrawler to Storm and Logan: Perhaps we should work together more often, ja? Logan: Tell me more about this XSE, Ororo. Storm: Someone has to keep the peace, Logan. The first generation of mutants needs to take responsibility for their heirs. Sage: Forgive the interruption, my friends. You have missions. (Sages statement implies that Logan and Kurt are officially part of the XSE team. This means that: theyve already been assigned to work with Sage; that Kurts statement was probably a tongue-in-cheek remark made after he knew they were to work together  if so its a change of heart from his objection in X 157; and that Logans inquiry about the XSE  after months of XSE members hanging with the X-Men  was prompted by the fact that he was now part of the team, as of X 157. The whole Danger Room session may have been prompted by the fact that Ororo, Kurt, and Logan all were put on the same team and they felt it necessary to conduct one of those drills Alex mentioned in X 157.) 

UNCANNY X-MEN #444 (15-23) 
 Here we see the missions that Sage mentioned; they could be other missions entirely, but thats not the implication. 
 Since the African mission was in reaction to an attack that happened today, then UX 444 (15-23) should occur the same day as UX 444 (12-14) 
 Storm, Bishop, Marvel Girl, and Cannonball (all in XSE costumes) rout an attack by the Weaponeers, high-tech raiders working for Achmed Al-Khalad; the Weaponeers appear next in XCAL3 11 (9-22) 
 Meanwhile, Sage calls Brian Braddock to arrange a visit to Braddock Manor 
 Meanwhile, Wolverine and Nightcrawler (both in their new costumes) arrive in Washington State to deal with an alpha-level mutant who has taken hostages. Logan: The local law wont accept our XSE badges. Nightcrawler: We represent the XSE. (Both statements confirm that Kurt and Logan are on the XSE team.) 
 Green grass and trees in Britain and Washington State 

UNCANNY X-MEN #445 (1-10) 
 Continuation of Logans and Kurts Washington mission, which results in the death of Tommy Reichert, the threatening mutant boy and the arrest of Logan and Kurt 
 Arriving on the scene are Storm and Carol Danvers, who introduces herself to local law enforcement as Warbird of the Avengers. Chief of Tactical Operations, Department of Homeland Security and gets them to stand down. 
 Sage uses her cyber glasses to see Logan (still in tattered costume) interrogated by FBI in Seattle, the press reporting that the X-Men will not be charged, a press conference by Vange, and reactions to the event seen on TV and the web 
 Green grass and trees in Washington State 

UNCANNY X-MEN #445 (11-22) 
 Later...after the end of a hard day, Nightcrawler is lamenting Reicherts death and Storm arrives to comfort him and they dance in the sky above the Institute 
 Pretty much simultaneously (confirmed by Sages monitor screens), Bishop, Marvel Girl, and Cannonball arrive via car at Braddock Manor, where its daytime  it must be before sunrise at Westchester and after sunrise in England 
 Bishop: Hey, Sam, apropos of nothing special  when do you Guthries get to form your own team of X-Men? Rachel: Yeah! How many of you are active mutants? Sam: Well, I got a brother with wings, can you believe it? Rachel: Not to mention your two sisters. Hows your mom feel about that? Sam: She enrolled Jay at the Institute, and of course he totally hates it, which means he hates me. (That places this segment before X/U 3/2.) Rachel: Hell get over it. Sam: Oh man, you do not want to know how mama reacted when she saw us on TV. When she called, I felt like a kid again. On my way out to the woodshed. (Mrs. Guthrie may have seen a TV rebroadcast after departing the Institute in X 157, since she had to call to ream Sam out.) 
 Bishop, Rachel, and Sam battle the cybernetic creature, the Fury, under Braddock Manor. 
 Believing himself to be in mortal danger, Sam thinks, Paige  youll be the oldest now. Look after Jay an Melody, sis. Make me proud! (This implies that Melody is a student at Xaviers instead of at home with mom and the other siblings, Jedediah, Lewis, Joelle, et al, plus Ray Jr.) 
 Green grass and trees in Britain 
 Full moon 

UNCANNY X-MEN #446 
 Direct continuation from UX 445 (11-22). The Fury uses Sams cyber glasses to remotely possess Sage and send her on a rampage through the Institute. Storm, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine free Sage of the Furys influence and set off at once to Braddock Manor to help their teammates defeat the Fury 
 Among the occupants of the Institute downed by the release of interdiction gas in the melee  Scott and Emma (who must be having a very late elegant dinner); Dani, Beast and Gambit (without bandage), presumably in the med lab (we can surmise that Beast is checking on Remys eyesight this time); Rogue and the students from that same Danger Room class from UX 444, all in standard X-training costumes and presumably in the Danger Room (in what must be a new session) 
 Sams leg is broken 
 Green grass and trees in Britain 

UNCANNY X-MEN #447 
 Direct continuation from UX 446. The XSE team defeat the Fury and Braddock Manor is destroyed in the battle. 
 In the aftermath, Storm says: What matters now is getting Sam to a hospital (presumably local). Then, well worry about Brian and the rest. (Apparently, Sam quits the X-Men after recovering from the injury and appears next in XFOR2 2.) 
 Logan: You did good today, Red. Kurt: We all did. We may have some rough edges but we came together as a team. (The implication is that this was the new XSE teams first mission together.) 
 Green grass and trees in Britain 

UNCANNY X-MEN #448 
 The XSE team (without the injured Cannonball) return to Braddock Manor to find it in fine shape  Brian says, Im sorry I wasnt here when the attack happened. As ruler of Otherworld, my responsibilities keep me so busy I dont get back here often. The manor can usually take care of itself. 
 Right after visiting the manor, Logan tells Rachel, Its what I was tryin t tell ya. Weve been invited t Buckingham Palace, for dinner with the Queen. (So this visit doesnt necessarily have to occur right after UX 447.) 
 That night, the XSE team prepares for their dinner and Rachel talks to Kitty (BTS) on the phone. 
 The XSE team is kidnaped by Viper, who infests them with power-stripping nannites and traps them in a twisted version of Murderworld and apparently shoots Sage 
 Green grass and trees in Britain 

UNCANNY X-MEN #449 
 Direct continuation from UX 448. After Viper leaves, Sage is revealed to be Logan in disguise, whose healing factor makes him recover from the bullet wound. Kurt and Ororo crash a Purity meeting. Viper forces the X-Men into a choice  allow one of the queens housemaids to be blown up or force the detonation of a baby nuke. The heroes manage to save the day. Storm and Rachel are injured and are taken away in an ambulance. 
 Viper and Courtney Ross join Sebastian Shaw as the new Hellfire Club 
 Green trees in London 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #2 (18-23) 
 The Monday morning after NX 2 (10-17) 
 At an outdoor orientation meeting for the students  clearly different from the assembly in ASTONX3 1  this assembly is specifically aimed at the formation of squads for combat training in light of recent dangers faced by the school. (This orientation may occur after classes have started; after all, the educational mission of the Institute is more important than the combat training.) 
 Cyclops, Emma, and Dani introduce their student training squads, the Corsairs, the Hellions, and the New Mutants. (The other senior staff  Beast, Kitty, and Logan  are not here.) 
 Cyclops: Im happy to have you all back to the Xavier Institute for Higher Learning for a new semester. Weve had some setbacks. But were still here. As you all know by now, Miss Frost and I will be running the school as headmasters. Professor Xavier is away, pursuing other aspects of his dream. 
 Cyclops: Those squads that have already been chosen will be introduced today. But all of you will be in a squad before the month is over. 
 The students now have costumes and code names 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #3 (1-19) 
 Continues directly from NX 2 (18-23). The New Mutants and Hellions argue and Cyclops decides to have them compete in field day exercises. 
 Nineteen-year-old Rahne tells sixteen-year-old Josh shes too old for him; age really should be an issue, as Rahne must be older than 19 by now 
 Emma and Dani find and recruit Kevin Ford for the school; Kevin is a fifteen-year-old who was a student here last summer for a couple of weeks (in NM2 3-6) 
 Gambit cameos here without a bandage around his eyes, but it is not known for sure that he is sighted. (Given all the other clues, I think this is going to have to happen while Remy is blind; maybe hes taking a short break from the bandages or we can chalk this up to an art error.) 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #3 (20-23) 
 The morning after NX 3 (1-19). The Hellions and the New Mutants compete in their field day exercise 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #4 
 Continues directly from NX 3 (20-23). The Hellions defeat the New Mutants at field day and Josh blames Sofias lack of leadership. Later that day, we see a love polygon develop involving Cessily, Kevin, Laurie, Josh, and Rahne. At dinner, Agent Pierce of the FBI shows up to arrest Kevin for the murder of his father 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #5 (1-14) 
 Continues directly from NX 4. Pierce tries to get Kevin to surrender himself for questioning. The New Mutants attempt to sneak Kevin out of the Institute, but they are caught. 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #5 (15-23) 
 The morning after NX 5 (1-14). The school gives Kevin up to the FBI, but the Hellions vow to bring him back and recruit Sofia to help them 
 It is a class day at Xaviers, where we see green trees 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #6 (1-18) 
 Continues directly from NX 5 (15-23). Jay alerts the New Mutants and they go stop the Hellions from fighting the FBI. Alerted by Rahne, Scott and Emma arrive on the scene and send all the students back to the Institute. Kevin goes off with the FBI. 
 It is two weeks before NX 6 (19-22) 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #3/2 (1-2p1) 
 One evening, between 8:30 PM and 9:07, Jay Guthrie broods about his dead girlfriend at Xaviers and calls his mother 
 Students abound at the Institute and theres a reference to flying class, so classes must have started 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

X-MEN UNLIMITED #3/2 (2p2-12) 
 The early morning after XU2 3/2 (1-2). At 3:07 AM, Cannonball checks in on brother Jay, in response to Paiges concerns about Jay  this appears to be the first time theyve really talked since Jays arrival. They fly to Manhattan, rescue people from a burning building, and have a talk in which Sam encourages Jay. (This may not be on a school night, since its unlikely Sam would wake up his brother in the middle of the night to go to New York if it were.) 
 Jay: I dont want to be a mutant anymore. (No mention of Dr. Raos serum here, so maybe it hasnt been announced yet.) 
 Jay mentions that Sam called his family once two months ago 
 Cannonballs leg is fine; if this indeed occurs after UX 449, then his broken leg was probably healed by Archangel or Elixir by now 
 Jay has not heard of the Hellfire Club before now 
 Its a nice night 
 Green grass and trees in New York 

MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #6 (4-23) 
 This segment occurs the month before M/KS-M 9 
 Rachel Summers appears here, so it must be after XX 46 (12-23) 
 The Xavier Institute appears rebuilt and there are students hanging around; this may mean that school has started or is about to start 
 Spidey turns to the imprisoned Osborn and then goes to the Xavier Institute, where Rachel Summers tells him she thinks May is dead. Emma and Scott are in San Antonio dealing with a kid with thermonuclear powers. That night, a bunch of villains shows up at the auction, where Eddie Brock offers to sell Venom for charity money 
 Peter notes that Aunt May is seventy-two years old 
 Green grass and trees in Westchester 

IDENTITY DISC #1 (3-8) 
 It is shortly after ID 5-FB (14) and ID 5-FB (3) 
 It is one week before ID 5 
 It must be more than twenty years after ID 1-FB (1-2) and more than sixteen years after ID 1-FB (13) 
 Sandman may appear here after S-H3 6 
 Juggernaut is here in his gray costume and Sabretooth in classic orange and brown costume with fur (his first costume) 
 Valerie Jessup, claiming to be an agent of Tristram Silver named Valeria Merrick, recruits Vulture, Sandman, Juggernaut, and Sabretooth for a job. 

IDENTITY DISC #1 (9-22) 
 One early morning, starting at midnight of the night after the day of ID 1 (3-8) 
 Deadpool and Bullseye join the others recruited Valeria, who assigns them with obtaining what she claims is the Identity Disc from AIM. Sandman refuses to cooperate and is discorporated (as planned). 

IDENTITY DISC #2 (1-14) 
 Continues directly from ID 1 (9-22) 
 It is a day that the offices of Koenig & Strey are open 
 Valeria prepares the five remaining villains for the AIM raid by assigning them to do surveillance and obtain items that will facilitate the raid 
 We see green trees and Brooklyn Tech College is in session 

IDENTITY DISC #2 (15) 
 Early morning, just after midnight following ID 2 (1-14) 
 Deadpool returns to the group with the skeleton key he and Bullseye were assigned to retrieve 

IDENTITY DISC #5  FB (11p3) 
 The same early morning as ID 2 (15). Vulture secretly reports back to Valeria on the whereabouts of the group. 

IDENTITY DISC #2 (16-22) 
 The same early morning as ID 5-FB (11p3). The villains retire to a bar. Bullseye arrives with the real key, having double-crossed Valeria, and the other villains beat him up. Valeria shows up and gets the key. 

IDENTITY DISC #3 
 The same day as ID 2 (16-22). Deadpool, Bullseye, Juggernaut, Sabretooth, and Vulture infiltrate AIM headquarters to get the identity disc. 

IDENTITY DISC #4 (1-19p4) 
 The same day as ID 3. The villains battle AIM until only Juggernaut is left to claim the Identity Disc. 

IDENTITY DISC #5  FB (12p4-12p5) 
 The same day as ID 4 (1-19). Juggernaut looks at the contents of the disc. 

IDENTITY DISC #4 (19p5-19p6) 
 The same day as ID 5-FB (12p4-12p5). Juggernaut is caught looking at the disc. 

IDENTITY DISC #5  FB (12p6-13p1) 
 The same day as ID 4 (19p5-19p6). Juggernaut faces the Vulture, who set everything up. 

IDENTITY DISC #4 (20p1-20p3) 
 The same day as ID 5-FB (12-13). Vulture shoots Juggernaut, who falls. 

IDENTITY DISC #5  FB (13p2-13p5) 
 The same day as ID 4 (20p1-20p3). Vulture takes the disc and leaves Juggernaut. 

IDENTITY DISC #4 (20p4-22) 
 The same day as ID 5-FB (13p2-13p5). As the AIM headquarters burns, the Vulture is arrested by police. 

IDENTITY DISC #5 (1-20) 
 The same rainy night as ID 4 (20-22). Fury interrogates Vulture, believing that Sabretooth was the mastermind behind the operation. As Vulture is led away by a SHIELD agent, it is revealed that the agent is Valeria, that Valeria is Vultures daughter, and that the operation was to retrieve the disc that linked Valeria with Vulture. Fury and Dum Dum cant figure out the reason for the villains AIM operation since SHIELD possesses the Identity Disc. 

IDENTITY DISC #5 (21-22) 
 The day after ID 5 (1-20). Sandman is alive and well in St. Lucia, having been paid to fake his death at Valerias hand. Tristram Silver meets him and notes that he may go after the Identity Disc. 

DISTRICT X #1  FB 
 While under the influence od a mutant siren in District X, New York cop Gus Kucharsky shoots two people dead and wounds himself with a shot to the head. To help Gus, his partner, Izzy Ortega covers up the incident. 
 Green trees and light clothing in New York 

DISTRICT X #1 
 The day after DX 1-FB. Izzy visits Gus in the hospital and continues the cover-up. Izzy returns to the precinct and meets Bishop, whos been called in to check out rumors of an impending mutant gang war in District X. 

DISTRICT X #2 
 Continues directly from DX 1. As Internal Affairs investigates the Gus shooting, Bishop goes out on patrol with Izzy and during a fracas with a bug-hatching mutant, Bishop displays his mutant power. Local crime boss Shaky Kaufman finds out from Jazz about a new street drug called Toad Juice and the mutant who secretes it, who is controlled by rival crimelord, Frankie Zapruder. That night, Izzy goes home to his mutant wife. 
 Short-sleeve shorts worn by New Yorkers 

DISTRICT X #3 
 The day after DX 2. Kaufman finds and seizes the toad boy and Zapruder is furious. Absolon Mercator visits Gus in the hospital to let him know that he witnessed the shooting. That night, Jazz pushes Toad Juice at a nightclub and encounters Mr. Mercator. A non-mutant woman suffers a disfiguring death after taking the Toad Juice. 
 There is no sign of there being school for Izzys kids, but Izzys wife is a teacher who is grading assignments, so its probably a weekend day during the school year. Its also a day with mail delivery, so its likely a Saturday. 

DISTRICT X #4 
 The day after DX 3. Bishop and Izzy investigate the nightclub death and learn that they must find the girls boyfriend, who stole a bag of Toad Juice tablets from Jazz. Izzy learns hes getting a promotion while Gus is let go from the force. Mercator rescues the toad boy from Kaufmans compound and cures him of his mutation. That night, Bishop and Izzy track the Toad Juice thief to a party. 
 Izzy switches from uniform to plain clothes here, so this story must occur after MADROX 4 
 It is thirty years after DX 4-FB 

DISTRICT X #5 (1-3) 
 Continues directly from DX 4. Bishop and Izzy are too late; a bunch of non-mutant partygoers dies from taking the Toad Juice. 
 Green grass and shrubs in New York 

DISTRICT X #5 (4-17) 
 The day after DX 5 (1-3). Zapruder bombs Kaufmans club. Bishop and Izzy investigate and encounter Mercator, who they fight and barely escape with their lives. That evening, Bishop has dinner at Izzys. 

DISTRICT X #5 (18-23) 
 The day after DX 5 (4-17). A violent gang war breaks out between Zapruders and Kaufmans crews. Bishop and Izzy race to the scene, but Izzy has forgotten his gun at home, where Mercator shows up and fails to stop Izzys son from accidentally shooting his sister. 
 Green trees and light clothing in New York 

DISTRICT X #6 
 Continues directly from DX 5 (18-23). Mercator heals Izzys daughter but flees when Izzy arrives and believes Mercator attacked his family. Bishop and the police arrest Zapruder, Kaufman, and their crews, then they go after Mercator, whos determined to destroy District X. Mercator is defeated and jailed. Izzys son confesses to the shooting of his sister. 
 This story must occur before MADROX 3 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #6 (19-22) 
 It is two weeks after NX 6 (1-18). With the help of lawyer Vange Whedon, charges against Kevin are dropped at a Georgia court, where we see green trees. Back at the Institute, Kevin joins the Hellions and Jay joins the New Mutants. Rahne and Josh kiss. 
 It is last semester relative to NX 11 
 Scott and Emma appear 
 Green trees in Georgia
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 10 Apr 2005 03:29 pm; edited 3 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Mar 2005 02:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

EDITED POST: 

Okay, let's take it from mid-September to early November: 


WEAPON X v2 #26 (1-10) 
 One night, after hanging out with fellow bad guys in a bar, Sabretooth reports to Michael Grand, his employer at Megacorp (who is actually John Sublime in disguise). Grand wants Creed to retrieve Sinister, who as Dr. Windsor now runs a medical research facility. 
 I have Constrictor here, well and in civilian garb, shortly before his beating in S-H3 9-FB (22p1) 
 This segment occurs after WX2 28-FB 

WEAPON X v2 #26 (11-22) 
 Probably the day after WX2 26 (1-10). Sabretooth arrives at the medical research facility (on a day its open) to retrieve Sinister, but Sinisters lackey Hans mops the floor with Creed. 

WEAPON X v2 #27 
 Continues directly from WX2 26 (11-22). Creed faces nine more Hans-type individuals and is defeated. Sinister disappears and when Creed comes to, his Megacorp employers express their dissatisfaction. As Creed leaves Megacorp on a stormy night, he encounters Scalphunter. 

WEAPON X v2 #28 (1-18) 
 Continues directly from WX2 27. Concerned that the Hans army makes him dispensable, Scalphunter gives Sabretooth information that allows him to get to Sinister and take out the Hanses. As Creed and Essex prepare to battle, Grand shows up and pays Sabretooth, who leaves. Grand reveals himself as Sublime to Sinister and wants to make a deal with him  the Hans army in exchange for a peek at the mutant files that Creed stole from Weapon X. 

WEAPON X v2 #28 (19-21) 
 Perhaps the rainy night of the day after WX2 28 (1-18). Sublime talks about his deal with Sinister as a Hans is being tested. Creed plays poker with Scalphunter when he is called away to join the Brotherhood, so this segment must occur before X 161. 
 Sabretooth notes that Sinister was leaving for Genosha this morning, and that places this segment before XCAL3 5 

EXCALIBUR v3 #5 
 X-Corp headquarters in Mumbai, Singapore, and Nairobi are simultaneously bombed, and as Xavier tries to get a sense of those responsible, his telepathic link is violently broken. Haunted by visions of the destruction of Genosha, Shola unleashes his power, which is detected by the U.S. military. Then Stripmine, Appraiser, and their band of trolls attack, looking to pillage Genosha. 
 The attack on X-Corp is referenced in XFOR2 2, which must occur after this 
 Xavier detects the presence of Mr. Sinister, so this story must occur after WX2 28 

EXCALIBUR v3 #6 
 Continues directly from XCAL3 5. Their powers neutralized, Xavier, Magneto, Callisto, Wicked, Shola, and Karima are held captive by the pillagers, who are in league with Unus. Freakshow remains free, chased by trolls. Sholas power returns and he subdues trolls and Unus, but is blindsided by Black Beast. Xavier, Magneto, Callisto, and Wicked escape captivity. 

EXCALIBUR v3 #7 
 The same night as XCAL3 6. While Black Beast attempts to tap into Karimas Omega Sentinel capabilities, Xavier leaves Magneto to neutralize Wickeds nannites and he, Callisto, and Freakshow battle Black Beast, Stripmine, Appraiser, and the trolls. The villains are defeated when Karima is freed. Two hours later, Xavier and Magneto pledge to rebuild the Republic of Genosha. 

MADROX #1 
 One night, sometime after the May 24 noted on a newspaper clipping 
 One of Jamie Madroxs duplicates, dying from a stabbing he must have received the day before, catches a taxi back to Mutant Town, where Rahne Sinclair is visiting Jamie, who is now a private investigator. As Rahne and Jamie get reacquainted, another duplicate arrives, dressed as a Buddhist Monk. Jamie says he needs to reabsorb this duplicate to learn what all the dupe has learned in his travels. He asks Rahne to go to a local bar, where she meets Guido Carosella, who explains what Jamie is up to. The wounded Jamie duplicate enters the bar and collapses on the floor. Guido yells for the real Jamie, who arrives and looks at his dying duplicate. Jamie reabsorbs the dying duplicate and is knocked out from the pain. When he awakens in his apartment, he tells Rahne and Guido that the limited memories he got seemed to involve Chicago and a pretty woman. He creates a new duplicate of himself, whom he asks to stay with Rahne and Strong Guy while he goes off to investigate in Chicago. 
 Jamie refers to Rahne as a teacher at Xaviers, so this story must occur sometime after NM2 10 
 Rahne is under 21, not old enough to drink legally 
 Rahne notes that Jamie has quit his job at X-Corp in Paris, placing this story sometime after X 131 
 Rahne notes that Guido and Lila Cheney were an item, but they apparently have broken up 
 Waxing crescent moon 
 Green, leafy trees 
 It is warm enough for outdoor swimming in Chicago 

EXCALIBUR v3 #8 (1-16) 
 Perhaps the day after XCAL3 7. Seeking to rebuild Genosha, Xavier tries to enlist help. Unus and his gang turn him down, but the jailed Magistrates, Black Beast, Stripmine, Appraiser, and trolls agree to work in exchange for parole. The rebuilding begins, and Xavier aims to find every living person still on the island. 

AVENGERS #503 (4-5, 7-15) 
 Continues directly from A 502. Dr. Strange explains to the Avengers that Wanda is behind the chaos. 
 Beast is here in his Morrison leather. 

EXCALIBUR v3 #8 (17-20) 
 Thanks to Broadband, Magneto catches a live news television report on the destruction of Avengers Mansion (no longer Avengers Embassy since the UN disavowed the Avengers in A 502) and casualties among earths mightiest heroes  Ive inserted this report of events from A 500-503 during a brief gap between pages 15 and 16 of A 503 
 According to a statement by Xavier in XCAL3 11, it is barely a night since Xavier left to find survivors on Genosha 
 The waning crescent moon is actually consistent with that shown in CA4 29 

AVENGERS #503 (16-30p5) 
 Continues directly from A 503 (7-15) and XCAL3 8 (17-20). The Avengers find and battle Wanda, who is defeated by Dr. Strange. Fury finds the dead Agatha Harkness. Magneto shows up and takes the unconscious Wanda. 
 As far as the Avengers know, Magneto should be a dead mass murderer! 
 Beast appears in his Morrison leather. (This may be Hanks last appearance in them, between Scotts announcement of new costumes in ASTONX3 1 pg. 11-17 and their unveiling in ASTONX3 1 pg. 18-24.) 
 It is three months before A:FINALE and six months before NA 1 
 Green trees in Manhattan 

EXCALIBUR v3 #9  FB 
 Continues directly from A 503 (16-30). Magneto flies away with Wanda as Cap looks on. 
 Green grass and tress in Manhattan 

AVENGERS #503 (30p6-31) 
 Continues directly from XCAL3 9-FB. After Magneto and Wanda leave, the Avengers disperse. 

EXCALIBUR v3 #8 (21-23) 
 Continues directly from A 503 (30-31). Magneto teleports back to Genosha with Wanda in tow. 

MADROX #2 (1-6) 
 The day after MADROX 1. Jamie arrives in Chicago, just in time to save an old friend named Stringer, a Chicago Tribune reporter and min-reading mutant, from being beaten up by a group of thugs. Jamie spends the night at Stringers place and asks to use the newspaper database in the morning. 
 Green, leafy trees 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #1 (18p1-18p2) 
 Dr. Rao prepares for a presentation in which shes about to change the world. 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #1 (19-24) Dr. Rao, wearing the same clothing as in ASTONX3 1 (18p1-18p2), announces a cure for the mutant gene 
 Ord and his group of mutant terrorists take hostages in the Chapman Building and Scotts team responds, donning the new costumes  we have this as the earliest appearance of Beasts and Kittys Reload costumes (perhaps there was some holdup with the Beasts costume, considering that he was still in his Morrison costume in Disassembled) 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #2 
 Continues directly from ASTONX3 1 (18-24). The X-Men defeat Ord and his gang and save the hostages at an annual fund-raiser which Emma hasnt attended for the first time; its because her identity as a mutant is now publicly known, an indication that this story likely occurs the year after X 116. Tension builds between Emma and Kitty and Beast visits Kavita Rao. 
 Lockheed finds Kitty 
 Green grass and trees in New York 
 Full moon 

MADROX #2 (7-22) 
 The day after MADROX 2 (1-6). It is a couple days after MADROX 1 and three days after the stabbing of the first Jamie duplicate. A newspaper headline reads, Magneto Alive Again?!?, which may mean that this segment occurs the day after A 503, in which Magneto made a public appearance. Jamie and Stringer head to the archives of the Tribune and look for the May 24th newspaper headline which Jamie remembers from absorbing the dying duplicates memories. Stringer recognizes the girl pictured in the article as Sheila Desoto, fiancee of millionaire industrialist Edward Vance, who has alleged ties to organized crime. Jamie decides to head to Vances mansion. Back in New York, mysterious assassin Clay is notified that Madrox is back in Chicago and agrees to hunt him down. At Jamies detective agency, a woman named Carol Campbell wants the duplicate Jamie to investigate her quadriplegic mutant husband, who she believes is cheating on her via astral projection. In Chicago, Madrox comes upon an outdoor pool outside the Vance mansion, and finds Desoto swimming in it. Sheila gets out and kisses Jamie. Back in New York, Clay shoots the duplicate Jamie and the real Jamie in Chicago cries out in pain and falls into the pool. 
 Green, leafy trees 

MADROX #3 
 The same night as MADROX 2 (7-22). The Jamie duplicate in New York survived the bullet, which merely grazed his head. Guido tries to nab the assassin Clay, but a disturbed neighbor blows Guido out the building and Clay gets away. Rahne, on a stakeout outside the Campbell apartment, sees Ned Campbells astral projection leave and she follows. In Chicago, Jamie resurfaces from the Vance pool and faints. Jamie is tossed into a closet in Vances mansion and Shiela pleads innocence about his presence. Jamie frees himself and overhears Vance speaking on the phone in Russian to someone. Jamie is caught eavesdropping by Clay, who leads Jamie into the room to see Vance. When Jamie pleads ignorance about knowing what Vance was talking about, an evil duplicate of Vances emerges and says that Jamie knows Russian. 
 Bishop appears in a police car with Izzy, who is in uniform, so this story must occur after DX 2 
 Green, leafy trees 
 Waxing crescent moon 

MADROX #4  FB (4-18) 
 The same night as MADROX 3. It is a few hours before MADROX 4. Jamie confronts his evil duplicate, who he realizes he created when his head hit the bottom of the pool. Jamie realizes this duplicate is his self-loathing manifesting itself. Sheila admits to Vance that she married the duplicate Jamie some time back. Vance tells Clay to give the evil duplicate a gun, to kill Jamie but Jamie remembers the memories of his Buddhist monk duplicate and reabsorbs the evil duplicate without having to touch him. He escapes with Sheila and they drive away. Jamie tells her of the death of her husband and Shiela concludes the killer was Clay. Shiela explains that Vance, feeling threatened by rumors of a mystery mutant whos taking down all of Chicagos crime-lords, believed Jamie was this mystery mutant and sought to have him killed. Jamie suspects Stringer being the mystery mutant, so he arranges to meet with Stringer at a newspaper warehouse. In New York, Rahne, follows Neds astral projection and sees that Neds having an affair with a man. Ned spots Rahne and his astral projection form battles her. Rahne claws the projection, causing Ned to have a seizure in his bed. Jamie confronts Stringer, who denies hes the mutant trying to take over the crime gangs in Chicago. Just then, a flare gun sets the warehouse up in flames and Jamie and Stringer get separated as they try to flee. 
 Because of Izzys uniform in DX 3, Bishop must appear here before DX 4 
 Green, leafy trees 
 Waxing crescent moon 

MADROX #4 
 The same night as MADROX 4-FB. As Jamie searches for Stringer, a piece of burning ceiling falls down on him and the impact creates another duplicate, who flees, leaving Jamie trapped in the debris. Stringer almost makes it to the exit, when he is confronted by Sheila, who turns into a monster and slays Stringer. Clay appears and it becomes clear these two are the ones taking over the crime gangs. Sheila tells Clay to go hunt down Jamie and finish him off. 
 Green, leafy trees 
 Waxing crescent moon 

MADROX #5 (1-8) 
 The same night as MADROX 4. Rahne, Guido, and Jamies duplicate are back at Jamies office when Carol Campbell calls to tell them that Ned passed away in his sleep. Rahne blames herself. In Chicago, Clay finds Jamie trapped under the fallen debris. Clay admits he killed Jamies duplicate on Sheilas orders because the duplicate figured out her plans to control the crime gangs. The duplicate who abandoned the building returns, whacks Clay over the head, and frees Jamie. Jamie discovers that Clay is capable of duplicating himself as well. The floor collapses around them, separating Jamie from Clay. Jamie flees the building, carrying Stringer, who dies in his arms. 
 Green, leafy trees 
 Waxing crescent moon 

MADROX #5 (9-21) 
 The day after MADROX 5 (1-8). In New York, Jamies duplicate, Rahne, and Guido are in the mutant bar with Carol Campbell, helping her cope with the death of her husband. There Carol confronts the man with who Ned had an affair and she sets him and herself on fire. The duplicate puts them out with a fire extinguisher and they call 911. In Chicago, Jamie returns to Vances place and breaks in on a scene in which Sheila is trying to console Vance, saying Jamie must have used a mutant power to force Jamie into marrying her. Clay stands in the background. Jamie confronts them and, after explaining the truth about Sheila, dupes her into confirming the truth. Vance kills Sheila and Clay and lets Jamie live. Jamie returns to New York on a bus. Late that night, Jamie arrives back in his office and meets back up with his duplicate, Rahne, and Guido. Nobody wants to talk about the disasters their first cases were, but Guido reveals theyve renamed Jamies detective agency X-Factor Investigations. 
 Green, leafy trees 
 Waxing crescent moon 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #3 
 Beast informs his teammates: I went to see Kavita. She agreed I should verify her results and gave me a sample. Ill be a day at most. (It seems to be late the day after ASTONX3 2.) 
 Rao tells Ord: I saw your diversion on the news. Mercenaries. Hired thugs in a room full of innocent people. Its inexcusable. (Again, it seems to be late the day after ASTONX3 2.) 
 Cyclops gets a meeting with Nick Fury and tells him: You know about this cure thing, right? Mutants are a disease.? This monster shows up right when all that comes out, running a crew carrying your ordnance, and the best you can do is accuse him of being one of us? (Again, it seems to be late the day after ASTONX3 2.) 
 Long enough after ASTONX3 2 for over sixteen hundred alleged mutants to have lined up outside Benetech Labs demanding Dr. Raos cure (Would this take only one day?) 
 Its a school day in which Emma taught an ethics class and Kitty counsels a student (Wing), so its after the start of classes 
 After getting into a fight with Logan over the serum, Beast makes a discovery about a Benetech test subject and insists on going there tonight 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 
 Full moon 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #4 
 Continues directly from ASTONX3 3. As the X-Men case Genetech, Ord shows up at the Xavier Institute and battles Wing and Hisako. He injects Wing with serum. At Benetech, the X-Men fight security and Kitty encounters Colossus. 
 Full moon 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #5 
 Continues directly from ASTONX3 4. Elixir heals Wing, who discovers that his powers are gone. The Beast confronts Dr. Rao about her experiments on mutants, the X-Men fight Genetech security, and Colossus smashes Ord, who has returned to Genetech from the Institute. Nick Fury and SHIELD show up. 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #6 (3-19) 
 Continues directly from ASTONX3 5. SHIELD Agent Brand explains Ords mission to rid the world of mutants. The X-Men defeat Ord and destroy most of Raos work in the process. 
 Fury doesnt appear to trust the Astonishing team very much; that probably places this issue before C&D 6 (17-21) 
 Full moon 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #6 (20-23) 
 The morning after ASTONX3 6 (3-19). Scott and Hank discuss Raos cure and Kitty and Peter get reacquainted 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

EXCALIBUR v3 #9 
 The title of this story is Saturday Night Fever, so I suppose its a Saturday 
 It is long enough after XCAL3 8 (21-23) for Xaviers charges to have built some habitats, to have continued to convert the ruins of Hammer Bay to arable land, and for Karima to note to Magneto, We havent seen you in so long, we were starting to worry. 
 Magneto maintains vigil over Wanda and wishes to summon Xavier, who is still with Callisto up-country, where they discover some child survivors. Karima fetches Hub, who teleports to Xavier and returns with Callisto and the children. Black Beast leads the Magistrates on a mission to retrieve a cache of supplies and encounter a clawed creature, who decimates the Magistrates. Black Beast escapes and makes his way back to Callisto and company before collapsing. 

EXCALIBUR v3 #10 
 Continues directly from XCAL3 9. Hub teleports to Xaviers house to get a medical kit for Black Beast, but Magneto has encased the place in a force field and orders Hub to fetch Xavier. As Wicked watches over McCoy, Callisto and Karima investigate the Magistrates slaughter and encounter the Sugar Man and Rastus. Callistos left tentacles are torn off before the bad guys are defeated. Xavier arrives back at his house and Magneto asks for his help with Wanda. 
 It is only days after Xavier left between pages 16 and 17 of XCAL3 8 

EXCALIBUR v3 #11 (4-8) 
 Continues directly from XCAL3 10. Xavier and Magneto argue about Eriks fetching of Wanda, but Xavier agrees to help. 
 It is six months before XCAL3 11 (9-22) 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #7 
 Wing is depressed about the fact that he lost his powers in ASTONX3 4: they said I could stay here, still study. Dr. McCoy said hed like to run some tests on me. Said maybe its just temporary, the cure, maybe Ill get my powers back. He doesnt believe it. The way they all look at me, the pity...even Hisako, even Miss Pryde, with her big new muscle-buddy. This suggests placement shortly after ASTONX3 6 (20-23). Wing commits suicide in the Danger Room. 
 The X-Men speculate on Peters state of mind after all those months trapped in that lab and Scott notes that he has been quiet. This also suggests placement shortly after ASTONX3 6 (20-23). 
 Agent Brand faces a hearing to determine her possible removal as head of SWORD following the events of ASTONX3 1-6 
 The Astonishing team battle a subterranean creature that terrorizes Manhattan and defeat the creature with the help of the Fantastic Four 
 The FF probably appear here after the restoration of their finances following FOUR 12. Dialog between the FF and the X-Men suggest that this story may occur sometime after FF 513 (a storyline in which the FFs reputation was still besmirched)  Reed: Your teams saved the world more times than they know. Sue: But not with the Fantastic Four at your side and dozens of news cameras running. Scott: Well, that wasnt exactly a drawback, no... Emma: That came out wrong. Of course wed be nothing but pleased if this helps the mutant community. Johnny: But what if it backfires? What if the press brands us a menace? (Johnny seems sensitive about the FFs rep in light of recent events.) 
 The autumn colors of the Institute grounds shown here are part of a Danger Room environment, but they may reflect the current conditions of the grounds 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #8 
 Continues directly from ASTONX3 7. The Institutes psychics are shut down. A Sentinel is activated and attacks the Institute. The kids at the Institute are led into the Danger Room for safety and there they find the dead Wing, who is reanimated. The X-Men defeat the Sentinel only to discover that they inadvertently trapped the kids with their enemy, the Danger Room itself. 
 The cast of NX must be here, but the only one discernable is Icarus 
 Green grass and trees in Westchester 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #9 
 Continues directly from ASTONX3 8. Through Wings corpse, the Danger Room explains its mutated sentience to Kitty. As the Astonishing team try to destroy the Danger Rooms brain, the Room takes control of an X-jet and creates a female cyber being to fight the team. 

ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #10 
 Continues directly from ASTONX3 9. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #4 (1-4) 
 One evenin. Juggernaut requests to be a gym teacher at Xaviers and Scott decides to test him. 
 Juggernaut appears here in brown costume 
 Sammy mentions that he has a math test tomorrow 
 Green trees at Westchester 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #4 (5-12) 
 The morning after XU2 4 (1-4). Logan tests Juggernaut and Cain passes. 
 Logan and Scott are in their Reload costumes 
 Logan mentions Juggernauts bust-up with Spider-Man last year (sometime before UX 411) and Juggernauts tossing Logan through a car two years back; these events may not match up to any published story 
 Scott gives him the job of gym teacher, with his first class scheduled for tomorrow and a semesters lesson plans due by next Monday (an indication that it may still be fairly early in the semester). 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #4/2 (1) 
 One night. Emma invites Logan to accompany her to the wedding of old college acquaintances. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #4/2 (2-11) 
 Perhaps the day after XU2 4/2 (1). Emma and Logan attend the wedding, where they are cooly received. Logan ends up fighting a bunch of guys and Emma outs the groom as a mutant. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #5 
 Cyclops has Logan run through a Danger Room program to assess leadership skills 
 Cyclops wears a variation of his Astonishing costume 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #5/2 
 Logan has an adventure in a New York bar one night 

ROGUE v3 #1 
 It is two days before ROGUE3 4 (1-6) 
 Rogue deals with a blind, bandaged, humiliated Gambit, who notes: Ever since the accident, youre my only chance to get outside now and again (indicating that its a little while after X 160) 
 Juggernaut is in his brown costume, and after he suffers a heart attack in the field, Havok proclaims him out for a few weeks minimum (however, the vestiges of the heart attack must fade away, along with memories of what happened, at the conclusion of this story line) 
 She goes on a mission with Havok, Polaris, Iceman, and Juggernaut to find a presumed reality-warping mutant girl in Mississippi. Rogue calms the girl and absorbs her powers. The X-Men take the girl back to Westchester while Rogue stays in Mississippi to find the girls family. Rogue encounters Campbell St. Ange, a man who knew Rogues mother and is immune from Rogues powers. 
 Green grass and trees and blowing leaves at Westchester 

ROGUE v3 #2 
 Continues directly from ROGUE3 1. The reality-warping girl vanishes from Xaviers and the Beast and Havok lose their memories of her. Rogue heads to the place where she grew up and learns about the lives of her parents and Aunt Carrie. As St. Ange watches, Rogue encounters her double 
 Beast is wearing his Reload costume under his lab coat (likely putting this story after ASTONX3 6) 
 Theres a heat wave in Mississippi, where the record 9 AM temperature is 99 degrees and the expected high temperature is 108 degrees 
 Green grass and trees 

ROGUE v3 #3 
 Continues directly from ROGUE3 2. St. Ange leads Rogue to Lorenzo Moontreader, the dying shaman of her parents commune, from whom she learns her parents story. Rogue fends off an attack by Dream Beasts and Moontreader dies. 

ROGUE v3 #4 (1-6p2) 
 It is two days after ROGUE3 3. A blind, bandaged Gambit decides to go after Rogue, and when he cant get the X-Men to take him to Mississippi, he hitchhikes. 
 Rogue hears a radio report about a panic at a preschool, so its likely a weekday or the day after a weekday during the school year 
 Green trees at Westchester 

ROGUE v3 #4 (6p3-22) 
 One day, long enough after ROGUE3 4 (1-6) for Gambit to travel by truck to Mississippi 
 Rogue has another run-in with Dream Beasts and her double before returning to her motel room, where St. Ange awaits. They nearly share an intimate moment when Remy arrives. 
 Green grass and trees in Mississippi 

ROGUE v3 #5 
 Continues directly from ROGUE3 4 (6-22). Remy tries to attack St. Ange but strikes Rogue instead and flees after realizing what hes done. He then encounters Rogues double and when the Dream Beasts come to retrieve her, he follows them to the Far Banks. St. Ange tells Rogue his back story, reveals the girl from issue #1 as a Dream Beast, and he and Rogue embark for the Far Banks to fight Rogues mother. 
 It is a couple weeks after ROGUE3 5-FB (17p5-18p3) 
 Green trees in Mississippi 

ROGUE v3 #6 
 Continues directly from ROGUE3 5. Rogue, Gambit, St. Ange, and Rogues double meet up with Rogues mother at the Far Banks. Rogue absorbs her double, who turns out to be a creation of her mother. The mother they face is a dream incarnation of Rogues mother, who died some time ago. The dream dissolves, St. Ange leaves, Rogue and Gambit awaken in the real world, and Rogue makes up with her aunt. 
 Green grass and trees in Mississippi 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #6 
 An AIM kill team has shot down a X-plane carrying Sage, Storm, Emma, and Kitty. As they sit in the fuselage, trapped under the Atlantic Ocean, they tell each other date stories until Storm summons up the strength to free the plane. 
 All four women wear their Reload costumes 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #6/2 
 Rachel and Rogue (in current costumes) bring a car accident victim to a hospital, where they encounter a doctors mutant son, a boy with SCID who they discover can possess people. They convince his father to admit him to the Institute. That night, the Beast (in Reload costume) arrives with an X-plane to pick up his teammates and the boy. 
 Green trees 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #7 
 One night, Kurt meets a Rwandan mutant telepath in Manhattan 
 Kurt wears a pullover, but other people are in light clothing 
 Green trees in Manhattan 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #7/2 
 One day, Kitty tries to help Jacob, a student at Xaviers whose mutant powers are causing him to turn into a gas. Kitty deals with the frustration of not being able to reverse the process, but is there for him when he dissipates. 
 Kitty, Hank, and Emma are in their Reload costumes 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 
 Waxing crescent moon 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #8 (1-5) 
 One day, three weeks before XU2 8 (6-7). 
 Warren notes to himself, When was the last time I was actually in an honest-to-goodness brawl? One that took place outside the boardroom, anyway...?  this is probably an indication that this segment occurs before his involvement with the X-Mens battle against Phoenix in X:PE 2-5 
 Scott summons Warren to assign him the task of founding a charity that will give the Institute a positive image 
 A student at Xaviers asks Warren if he can enroll in your flight class next semester 
 Rachel, Kitty, and Dani appear 
 We see green trees at Westchester 

X-MEN: PHOENIX  ENDSONG #1 
 Early one morning, the Phoenix Force is reborn prematurely, occupies the corpse of Jean Grey, encounters Logan, and flies away 
 Beast, Cyclops, Emma, and the Cuckoos also appear 
 Green grass and trees and fireflies at Xaviers 

X-MEN: PHOENIX  ENDSONG #2 
 Continues directly from X:PE 1. Logan reports back and the X-Men prepare to face Phoenix, as do the Shiar responsible for its rebirth. Quentin Quire emerges from his capsule and, learning that Sophie is dead, exhumes her corpse and resolves to see if the Phoenix Force can resurrect her. 
 Warren appears here, and since he gets involved in the fight, this story likely occurs after XU2 8 (1-5); Warren may actually be at Westchester in connection with the assignment that Scott gives him in XU2 8 (1-5) 
 Scott, Emma, Ororo, and Kurt are in their Reload costumes 
 Peter is mentioned as being at the Institute, so it must be after ASTONX3 6 (20-23) 
 The Institute is rebuilt 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

X-MEN: PHOENIX  ENDSONG #3 
 Continues directly from X:PE 2. The X-Men leave Colossus behind to go face Phoenix, but she escapes with Logan and the team faces the Shiar, who want to kill Quire because his omega level power makes for an attractive Phoenix host. Logan weakens the Phoenix enough for Jean to take over and bury herself in the Arctic. But the Phoenix tries to seize Scott. 
 Leafy trees at Westchester 

X-MEN: PHOENIX  ENDSONG #4 
 Continues directly from X:PE 3. The X-Men trick the Phoenix Force into occupying Emmas body, then they trap Emma and Scott in a chamber constructed by Beast to contain the energy. Then Quire arrives, seeking to set the Phoenix Force free. 

X-MEN: PHOENIX  ENDSONG #5 
 Continues directly from X:PE 4. 

MYSTIQUE #14 (1-5) 
One night. A mutant escapes and is recaptured at the testing labs of Derma Free in Austria. 

MYSTIQUE #14 (6-10) 
The day after MYS 14 (1-5). Xavier appears to Mystique in a telepathic projection sent from Genosha, so this segment must occur after UX 443. He and Forge send her to Sweden to investigate Derma Free. We see Raven eating an ice cream cone at Coney Island. 

MYSTIQUE #14 (11-21) 
The day after MYS 14 (6-10). Mystique infiltrates Derma Free headquarters in Sweden and learns about the companys testing lab in Vienna. 

MYSTIQUE #15 (1-12) 
The same day as MYS 14 (11-21). Mystique escapes from Derma Free headquarters, having learned that the company uses her cloned cells. Xavier appears telepathically. 

MYSTIQUE #15 (13-22) 
The day after MYS 15 (1-12). In Salzburg, Mystique encounters Shepard then infiltrates Derma Frees labs with Shortpack, who gets caught. 

MYSTIQUE #16 (1-7) 
The same day as MYS 15 (13-22). Mystique and Shortpack escape from Derma Frees Salzburg labs with the mutants they free. 

MYSTIQUE #16 (8-22) 
The day after MYS 16 (1-7). Mystique goes after Viktor, Derma Frees mutant supplier in Prague. Xavier appears telepathically. Green, leafy trees in Stockholm. 

MYSTIQUE #17 (1-7) 
The same day as MYS 16 (8-22). Xavier appears telepathically to Raven in Prague and instructs her not to kill Viktor. 

MYSTIQUE #17 (8-22) 
The morning after MYS 17 (1-7). Mystique kills Viktor and the Salzburg police burst in on the freed mutants harbored by Raven and Shortpack. Full moon. 

MYSTIQUE #18 (1-13) 
The same day as MYS 17 (8-22). Starting at 10:44 PM (CET), Mystique saves the mutant lab rats in Salzburg and disfigures Helena Carlson. Full moon. 

MYSTIQUE #18  FB 
The same day as MYS 18 (1-13). One hour before MYS 18 (14-16), Sasha escapes her captors. 

MYSTIQUE #18 (14-16) 
The same day as MYS 18-FB. At 3:18 AM (CET), one hour after MYS 18-FB, Sasha catches up to Mystique and Shortpack. 

MYSTIQUE #18 (17-21) 
The day after MYS 18 (14-16). It is days before MYS 18 (22-23). Dermafree is under investigation for using unwilling mutant subjects. Shortpack heads to Genosha to talk to Xavier about being reassigned. Green grass and trees. 

MYSTIQUE #19 (1-20) 
Probably the day after MYS 18 (17-21). In Genosha, Shortpack asks Xavier to reassign Mystique to another handler. Mystique assists Shepard in retrieving an object from Hydra headquarters in the Bronx. Afterward, Shepard presents Raven with the object, Oscar Wildes pen, as a gift. 

MYSTIQUE #19 (21-22) 
The morning after MYS 19 (1-20). After sleeping with Shepard, Mystique agrees to kill Xavier and has Shepard take her to the Quiet Man. 

MYSTIQUE #20 (1-6) 
The same day as MYS 19 (21-22). It is more than three weeks before MYS 20 (7-8). Shortpack tape records a message for Xavier saying that he quits and is going to kill Steinbeck. Mystique accepts the assignment from the Quiet Man to kill Xavier. 

MYSTIQUE #18 (22-23) 
One day, days after MYS 18 (17-21). In Stockholm, a disfigured Helena Carlson plots against mutantkind with Herr Stein. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #6 (17-21) 
 One day, weeks after C&DP 6 (1-16). Cable and a ticked-off Deadpool come to terms. Cyclops, Beast, and Emma Frost (all in Reload costumes) report to SHIELD, vowing to stop Nathan. 
 Since the Astonishing team is working with Fury, this segment probably occurs after ASTONX3 6 (20-23) 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #7  FB  FB (7/8p1-7/8p3) 
 Cable reroutes waterways to flood half the Sahara, which takes Nathan a total of four days to do. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #7  FB  FB (7/8p4-7/8p5) 
 Cable stops the white blood count deterioration of AIDS victims in Africa. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #7  FB 
 Irene Merrywether interviews Nathan for the Daily Bugle. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #8  FB 
 Continues directly from C&D 7-FB. More of Irenes interview of Nathan. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #9  FB 
 Continues directly from C&DP 8-FB. More of Irenes interview of Nathan. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #10  FB (8) 
 Continues directly from C&D 9-FB. Still more of Irenes interview of Nathan. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #7 
 Perhaps the day after C&DP 10-FB (8), as Irenes interview with Nathan appears in the Bugle 
 It is weeks after C&DP 6 (1-16) 
 Working for the Astonishing X-Men, Deadpool battles the Cat in Hong Kong and acquires two of the eight surviving components of Graymalkin, components that may be the key to stopping Cable. The X-Men train to face Cable, SHIELD continues to monitor Nathans meddling in world affairs, and G.W. Bridge assembles a new Six Pack (including Domino, Constrictor, Anaconda, Solo, and Hammer) to take down Cable. 
 I have Anaconda here after CA4 31 and Constrictor here after S-H3 9-FB (22p1), following a recovery from the injuries he sustained in that title; the theory behind the quick recovery  he found a superhuman healer and used some of his settlement to pay for his restoration to health 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #8  FB (1) 
 Irene Merriwether interviews Deadpool 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #8 
 Deadpool snatches another Graymalkin component, this one at Genetech Research Lab on Long Island, and is stopped by the Cat, but the Astonishing X-Men arrive and take Wade and the component back to the Institute. There, Wade is given an X-Men version of his own costume. The Six Pack confront Cable, then Nathan issues an ultimatum to the worlds governments  disarm within forty-eight hours or Nathan will destroy all weapons arsenals himself. 
 Fury and Reed Richards appear; Reed appears on a screen from an unknown location 
 Green grass and trees in New York 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #10  FB (5p5-5p6) 
 It is twelve hours before C&DP 10. 
 The Cat shows up at Deadpools London flat and gets Weasel to tell him where Wade is 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #9 
 Twenty-four hours after C&DP 8, the Astonishing X-Men attack Cable and Deadpool double-crosses the team and Six Pack joins in the battle on Nathans side. SHIELD gets Reed Richards (BTS) to bring the Silver Surfer to earth to attack Cable. 
 Professor X appears here as a virtual projection 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #10 
 Continues directly from C&DP 9. As the Surfer and Cable battle, SHIELD observes the situation, and the X-Men, Six Pack, and the Cat scramble to keep Cables floating island from crashing. Deadpool teleports Cable to his safehouse in Switzerland, where he, following Cables wishes, uses the device he put together to remove Nathans higher telekinetic and telepathic abilities, leaving Cable seemingly catatonic. 
 It is three days before C&DP 11 (1-19) 
 The Surfer must appear here after S-H3 8 (18-22) 

WOLVERINE v3 #20 (1-2p2) 
One October day. It is weeks before W3 20 (2p3-2p4). In Nagasaki, Japan, limo driver Ichiro takes his millionaire bosss son and his own son to the park to play baseball, when Ichiros son is kidnaped by a criminal group, who supposedly mistake Ichiros son for the millionaires son. The millionaire expresses his sympathies to Ichiro and his wife. The kidnapers want $10 million from the millionaire, but Ichiro cant afford that, and the millionaire isnt going to shell out money for someone elses kid. Ichiro and his wife report the abduction to the police. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #8 (6-7) 
 One night, three weeks after XU2 8 (1-5) 
 Warren gets an inspiration for the new charity Scott assigned him to found 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #11 (1-19p5) 
 It is three days after C&DP 10 
 Modok probably appears here after CA&F 12 
 Irene and Fury talk about Cable. To protect his physical body, Nathan traps the Six Pack in his mind. Deadpool obtains a techno-organic embryo from AIM, then he gets the Fixer to agree to try to figure out a way to merge the embryo with Nathans body to save Cable. 
 Bare trees in London and apparently nice weather in Florida 
 Waxing half moon 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #11 (19p6-22) 
 The day after C&DP 11 (1-19). As Fixer and Deadpool work with the embryo, Agent X attacks. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #12 (1-21p3) 
 Continues directly from C&DP 11 (19-22). Deadpool defeats Agent X and, with Weasel and the Fixer, gets the techno-organic embryo to Cable. Cable merges with the embryo, which restores Nathan with a new techno-organic arm and frees the Six Pack. 
 It is one week after C&DP 12 (21-22) 
 We see a waxing half moon but the whole moon is visible 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #12 (21p4-22) 
 It is one week after C&DP 12 (1-21) 
 This segment occurs before XFOR2 1 
 Nick Fury visits Cable at Nathans South Pacific island, Providence. Nathan is receiving thousands of applications for immigration to the island.
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 10 Apr 2005 03:31 pm; edited 2 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Mar 2005 02:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

EDITED POST: 

Now let's wrap this up, going from early November to early April: 


MYSTIQUE #20 (7-8) 
One day, more than three weeks after MYS 20 (1-6). Xavier has Forge and Mystique abandon a mission in Tokyo to come to Genosha. 

MYSTIQUE #20 (9-10) 
Probably the day after MYS 20 (7-8). Forge and Mystique meet Xavier and Callisto in Genosha. Xavier sends them on a mission to Monte Carlo to find the missing Shortpack. 

MYSTIQUE #20 (11-22) 
Probably the night of the day after MYS 20 (9-10). Mystique runs into Shepard while looking for Shortpack at a Monte Carlo casino. Then, Forge and Mystique encounter Fantomex, who tells them that Shortpack has gone after Steinbeck. Mystique runs off and Xavier has Forge cut the scrambler that shields Mystique from detection by her enemies. Shortpack is held captive by Shepard and the Quiet Man, who reveals himself to be Steinbeck. Waning crescent moon. 

MYSTIQUE #21 
The day after MYS 20 (11-22). Xavier has Forge follow up on finding Shortpack in Monte Carlo. In Cannes, Fantomex learns of Mystiques mission for Shepard and in return for his silence he has Mystique go to the Virgin Islands to steal a discarded Spider-Man costume from a man who bought it online. To ensure Fantomexs silence, Mystique stabs him, infects him with a techno-organic virus, and dumps him into the ocean. With her scrambler now shut off, Mystique is found by U.S. authorities. 

MYSTIQUE #22 
The same night as MYS 21. Steinbeck reveals his motives to Shortpack. Mystique escapes the authorities and is rescued by Shepard, who orders her to go to Genosha and kill Xavier tonight or Shortpack will be killed. Mystique teleports to Genosha and, posing as Prudence, wakes Xavier. The full moon conflicts with the waning crescent moon shown in MYS 20 (11-22). 

MYSTIQUE #23 
The same night as MYS 22. Since Logan is in his Reload costume here, this story must occur after ASTONX3 1 (18p3-18p5). Mystique stabs and wounds Xavier before being driven away by Forge. Raven returns to her New York pad at supersonic speed and encounters Logan and Rogue. A battle and explosion ensues and Mystique escapes and gets to a Brooklyn hospital, where she is detected by the Quiet Man and Shepard. 

MYSTIQUE #24 (1-17) 
The same day as MYS 23. It is days before MYS 24 (18-22). Shepard shows up at the hospital but is sandbagged by Mystique and a recovered Fantomex. After severing Shepards left hand, Mystique teleports to the Quiet Man in Niagara Falls. After a battle, Quiet Man blows up and Mystique and Shortpack are separated. Shepard escapes from Fantomex. Green grass and trees in New York. 

X-MEN #161 
 It is quite some time after UX 412 (4-24) 
 Sabretooth tells Logan, cant I go anywhere without runnin into you, runt? (an indication that this story occurs shortly after W3 19) 
 Juggernaut now appears in a new gray/yellow costume, which places this story after ROGUE 1 and XU2 4 (5-12) 
 Led by Exodus and Black Tom, and including Sabretooth  fresh from WX2 28 (19-21)  and the extra-dimensional Nocturne, the new Brotherhood of Evil Mutants strikes in Philadelphia. The X-Men, without the Juggernaut and the still blind Gambit, show up and battle the villains, who retreat. The X-Men return to the Institute, where we see green grass and trees. Sammys mother thinks about going out with Cain and Annie leaves the Institute, fearing for the safety of her son. The Brotherhood plan to attack the Institute and Tom introduces his secret weapon, Juggernaut. 
 Green grass and trees and autumn leaves in Philadelphia 

X-MEN #162 
 Continues directly from X 161. Xorn (revealed as the brother of the original Xorn, he must have been hanging around Xaviers BTS for a while now) tells Alex and Emma that Magneto was not responsible for the destruction of Manhattan, but rather someone else in their midst who he has yet to determine. Sammy discovers Juggernaut hanging with the Brotherhood and when the villains attack the boy, Cain retaliates. The X-Men arrive on the scene and are defeated by the Brotherhood. 
 It is a few months after EXILES 48 
 Green trees at Westchester 
 Full moon 

X-MEN #163 
 Continues directly from X 162. As Annie leaves, Carter detects that Sammys dead. Gambit, Rogue, Northstar, and Mindee defend the Institute against an attack by the Brotherhood. Havoks team, joined by Nocturne, regroup. 
 It must be more than a few weeks after EXILES 48 
 Green, leafy trees at Westchester 

X-MEN #164 
 Continues directly from X 163. The X-Men battle the Brotherhood, and when a cook from Xaviers is killed, Nocturne phases into Black Tom and Xorn decides to suck the villains into his black hole mind. Mindee mind-wipes the Brotherhood and Juggernaut volunteers to get sucked along with the villains so he can look after Nocturne. After getting rid of the threat, Xorn leaves to meditate on his action. Annie and Carter drive away with an evil, invisible passenger. 
 Sabretooth (in his second costume) does not get sucked into the black hole; rather, Logan carves him up. I would say that this leaves Creed free to pop up next in SABRETOOTH2 1. 
 The events of this issue are referenced in NX 7 
 Green, leafy trees at Westchester 

MYSTIQUE #24 (18-22) 
One day, days after MYS 24 (1-17). Forge encounters Mystique trying to get the interference transmitter. Mystique dupes Forge into thinking that hes destroyed the gadget, but she has it and can now hide from the authorities again. We see people wearing coats and scarves in Baltimore. 

SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN v2 #20 
 Cyclops, Storm, and Nightcrawler are in their Reload costumes 
 Recent editorial confirmation places this after A 503 (thats not Vision) 
 Green trees in New York 

SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN v3 #21 (1-15) 
One Friday night. Warrens reference to Xavier sending his regards is an indication that this segment probably occurs sometime after X 157; Warren may be in New York while arranging a deal for his Wings Over the World idea. The FF, Spidey, Black Cat, Dr. Strange, and Archangel gather to play poker. That no one from the Avengers is here may be an indication that this story occurs after A 503 (16-31). Ive placed the FF here after FF 522. The Kingpin (apparently out of prison now) arrives and challenges the group to play him. 

SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN v3 #21 (16-22) 
The Sunday morning after SPECSM3 21 (1-15). Spidey beats the Kingpin at poker. Archangel and Black Cat flirt, but his relationship with Paige may be still be on. 

AVENGERS: FINALE 
 One night, three months after A 503 
 Beast appears in his Astonishing costume 
 Pietro notes that Magneto has left the country and taken her [Wanda] to Charles Xavier. Xaviers trying to repair her mind through any number of, they said, psychic techniques. Xavier will try to make her what she once was. To heal her mind. 
 Pym announces that he has accepted a fellowship at Oxford and that he and Jan are leaving in a month (perhaps to begin the new year at Oxford) 
 Stark tells the team that he and his company will not be in a position to finance the Avengers anymore  this means that this story must occur before XFOR2 5 
 The Avengers disband, so this story must occur before M/TU2 2 (1-18) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #8 (8p1) 
 One day. Warren Worthington meets with Gilbane Construction to plan the building of the Wings Over the World facility. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #8 (8p2) 
 One day. Wareen Worthington meets with Scalar Tensils to design wing equipment for his Wings Over the World project. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #8 (8p3) 
 One day. Warren Worthington arranges to use SHIELD anti-gravity units for his project. 
 Nick Fury appears here aboard the heli-carrier, so this segment likely occurs before SCEWAR 1 (1-2) 

X-FORCE v2 #1 
 This story must occur after C&DP 12 (21-22) 
 Cable and Domino meet up with Shatterstar and they battle time-travelers looking to steal the Five Fingers of Annihilation, a sword that is capable of killing the Skornn, a mutant-eating creature the time-travelers seek to protect. 
 Green grass and bare trees 

X-FORCE v2 #2 
 Perhaps the day after XFOR2 1 
 Cable recruits Warpath, Sunspot, and Meltdown to join him, Domino, and Shatterstar; it does appear from the dialog that theyve just hooked up with Cable  to wit, Warpath notes, But how does this affect any of us now, Cable? Roberto and I both have responsibilities to X-Corp  especially now that theyve come under attack (a reference to XCAL3 5). 
 The group discovers that Jon Spectre is in Kentucky, where he tells Sam Guthrie a future tale of Nathan. 
 Sam apparently quit the X-Men following his injury in UX 447 
 Sam is tending crops in Kentucky, so its not yet harvest time (I have a tentative early December placement for this story because of Avengers chronology  do certain crops still grow in Kentucky at this time?) 
 Green grass and trees in Kentucky 

X-FORCE v2 #3 
 Continues directly from XFOR2 2. Cable and company fight Spectre and Cannonball, and when Sam gets injured, Sunspot switches sides. Cable aborts his mission to get Sam and leaves him with Roberto and Spectre. Meanwhile, Skornn rises at the ruins of a Bulgarian temple. 
 Green grass and trees in Kentucky 

X-FORCE v2 #4 
 Wolverine tries to free Caliban from the Watchtower, but runs into X-Force, who are also trying to retrieve him. The heroes are attacked by the Administrator of the Watchtower and Deadpool enters the fray. Then Stryfe and the Mutant Liberation Front arrive, including Cannonball and Jon Spectre. 

X-FORCE v2 #5 
 Continues directly from XFOR2 4 
 Thing notes that Reed and Sue are off shopping today 
 Thing: Great timing fer the Avengers tget all mealy-mouthed about their charter. Cant afford trun the group, my butt. Weve been bankrupt before, didnt stop us. Johnny: Actually it did. This dialog places this issue after A:FINALE and after one or both of the story arcs in which the FF were bankrupt; I have this story occurring after FOUR 12. 
 Stryfe reveals himself to Cable as Domino from an alternate future and X-Force and the MLF, with Deadpool and Wolverine, decide to join forces to fight Skornn. Skornn shows up in Manhattan and starts eating people. The Shiar detect Skornns presence and call the Imperial Guard together to teleport to earth to battle him. The Thing and Human Torch battle Skornn, then X-Force and the MLF arrive on the scene. 

X-FORCE v2 #6 
 Continues directly from XFOR2 5 
 Sam Guthrie is probably here (and probably rejoins X-Force after this) before X 165 (9-24) 
 I suggest that Roberto joins X-Force (Cables cause) after this and that he appears in UX 453 after that 
 X-Force, the MLF, Wolverine, Thing, and Torch battle Skornn and the Helix, the modified humans from the future who unleashed him. Cable seemingly sacrifices himself in a psimitar energy burst that dispatches Skornn. The Imperial Guard detect Skornns disappearance. 

SECRET WAR  placement based on updated analysis 

UNCANNY X-MEN #450 
 This story probably occurs after DX 6 
 One night, Kurt and Rachel share a kiss during a Danger Room exercise. The X-Men are called to investigate a series of mutant-related murders in District X. The daughter of a mob boss named Parisi appears to have been kidnaped by the killer. The team has barely hours to find the killer and return Jade Parisi to her father before the resulting media frenzy brings mutant-human relations to a boiling point. Following the evidence to a nightclub, the X-Men discover that the killer is X-23, a 15-year-old girl with adamantium claws like Logans. 
 Green trees and light clothing in Manhattan 

UNCANNY X-MEN #451 
 Continues directly from UX 450. The X-Men battle X-23 and discover that the people she killed were Jades kidnapers. Jades defender Geech battles X-23 and the X-Men until Jade turns up safe and sound. The X-Men rescue Jades boyfriend from the Bacchae, then they contact Sage to relay the events of the evening, but Sage breaks contact and enters the abandoned Hellfire Club headquarters 
 Green trees in Manhattan 

UNCANNY X-MEN #452 
 The day after UX 451. The X-Men track Sage to the Hellfire Club and are joined by Emma Frost. Emma and Rachel fight. The X-Men are separated while attempting to use the Clubs global transmat system, with Emma and Rachel materializing in a Hong Kong casino, where an auction of mutant slaves is being held under the auspices of the Club. Emma faces Viper and Courtney and Rachel attracts the attention of Selene. Meanwhile, the other X-Men find themselves in a Paris sewer, where Bishop shoots his teammates 
 Green grass and trees in Manhattan 

UNCANNY X-MEN #453 
 Continues directly from UX 452. After Nightcrawler teleports the team out of the sewer, it is revealed that Bishop shot his teammates to neutralize nannite spores that infected them upon arrival. The nannites do a number on Logans healing factor, and Bishop instructs Kurt to get him to X-Corp Paris to recover, but they stop at a coffee house where they discuss relationships and are then attacked. Rachel encounters Red Lotus, who notes that hes working with Courtney and Viper to shut down the mutant slave trade. Bishop and Storm track Sage to a Hellfire Club facility where they find Sebastian Shaw and Roberto da Costa, who has joined the Club as Black King. Roberto tells the X-Men that theyre trying to shut down the slave trade. Everyone at the Club is subdued in an attack by Donald Pierce. 
 Storm believes that Roberto has rejoined Cables cause (an indication that this story may occur after XFOR2 2; Roberto promptly leaves Cable in XFOR2 3, but he has, like Sam, probably joined X-Force  Cables cause  after XFOR2 6) 
 Green trees in Paris 
 Full moon 

UNCANNY X-MEN #454 
 Continues directly from UX 453. In Hong Kong, Rachel defeats Selene and Emma, Courtney, and Viper hand the slavers over to the authorities. In Paris, the X-Men battle Pierce and his Cleaning Crew and Logan is seriously injured. Shaw decapitates Pierce and is himself seriously wounded and taken away in an ambulance. It is revealed that the Pierce attack was a scenario by Sage to get Roberto installed as Lord Imperial of the Hellfire Club. 
 This story must occur before XCAL3 11 (1-3) 
 Green trees in Paris 
 Full moon 

X-MEN #165 (1-8) 
 X-23 is now with the X-Men; Logan states, It took courage for X-23 to come to our school, and he assigns her to share a room with Kitty and Rachel (who X-23 meets for the first time here). Iceman asks X-23, What kind of a name is X-23? as if he has just recently met her. These are clues that this story occurs very shortly after UX 454. 
 The X-Men handle rescue operations at the scene of a major highway accident 

X-MEN #165 (9-24) 
 X 165 (1-8) is referred to as having occurred the other day 
 Warren and Paige are back from hanging on the coast (we dont know yet if Warren has been to Genosha, as he was assigned in X 157) 
 Elixir has been trying to cure Gambits blindness with no luck, so Sage does another jump-start on the Cajuns powers, restoring his sight (why this wasnt done earlier is beyond me) 
 Sam Guthrie is here, playing hookie from X-Force, according to the narration  so its likely after XFOR2 6 
 Jubilee is here too, probably before JUB 1 (1-4) 
 Julian Keller refers to my man Icarus, but that doesnt necessarily mean that Jay is still a member of the Hellions 
 Xavier and Magneto appear unnoticed as projections at the Institute  Magneto: You could join them, you know. Theyre your students, Charles  your house, your legacy. Xavier: This isnt the time, old friend. There are too many questions Im not prepared to answer just yet... 
 The X-Men help out at a hospice, and Warren states the X-Men try to do this every year. 
 Tis the season of Christmas, the season of joy, but its before the students leave for holiday break (so before M/HOL04 1/2)  we see the Institute decorated with holiday greenery (including mistletoe and a Christmas tree), Beast and Rachel dressed up like Santa Claus and an elf and wish folks a seasons greetings, Sage wishes Gambit a Joyeux Noel, and Scott and Emma wish Rachel a Merry Christmas by introducing her to her grandparents John and Elaine Grey 
 We see autumn leaves on trees that should be bare as well as green grass in the Westchester area, but enough snow at Xaviers for a snowball fight (probably courtesy of Iceman and Storm) 
 Noriko states that its cold enough outside, and during a concert by Lila Cheney, Storm warms things up at the Institute so nobody needs coats 

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2004 #1/2 (1-6) 
 On December 22nd, the faculty of the Xavier Institute dismiss the students for holiday break, so its after X 165 (9-24). All the faculty and students have places to go except Kevin Ford, so Scott and Emma decide to stay at the Institute with him for the holidays. 
 Beast appears to have reunited with Trish Tilby 
 We see bare trees at Xaviers, as well as snow created by Iceman 
 Iceman does not appear here in ice form (image inducer, or will he be able to change back to human form by this point?) 

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2004 #1/2 (7) 
 On a snowy December 23rd, Scott and Emma take Kevin Christmas shopping and to a movie 
 We see a Christmas tree at FAO Schwarz 

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2004 #1/2 (8-11) 
 On a snowy December 24th, Scott and Emma take Kevin skating at Rockefeller Plaza, then they pick a Christmas tree. That night, they sit by the fireplace at the Institute. 
 Full moon 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #8 (8p4) 
 One day. Warren Worthington visits disabled children. 

X-MEN #166  FB (14p1-14p2) 
 One day, probably shortly before X 166. A mutant woman gets into an argument with Butterfly-Bore at the mutant settlement at the South Pole. 

X-MEN #166 
 It is four days after an outbreak of violence in Calvary and one day after the X-Men stopped getting distress signals from the South Pole 
 Havok, Polaris, Rogue, Gambit, and Iceman find a bunch of corpses and the word Golgotha written in blood at the site of an attempted mutant utopia at the South Pole. Then they encounter mutant zombies and a bunch of psychopaths who they battle. Emma Frost shows up and they probe the mind of one of the psychopaths before he dies. 
 Full moon 

X-MEN #167 (1-16) 
 The same night as X 166. The X-Men find and subdue the monster responsible for the deaths at the South Pole. Joined by Logan, they bring the creature back to the Institute for study and Emma assigns the team with going to Calvary. A mutant named Boy rounds up a bunch of mutants and they kill everyone at the home of Boys master, Jim Collins. 
 Logan refers to winter, but it is not known if it is a Northern or Southern hemisphere reference 
 Full moon 

X-MEN #167 (17-23) 
 The day after X 167 (1-16). TV news reports on the Collins killings last night. In probing the creature, Emma learns a horrible truth as the X-Men encounter another Golgotha written in blood at Calvary, where a suicide bomb went off two weeks ago. 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #7 
 Jays statement, after Sammy died, and Shans statement, We lost some rare first editions when the school was ... attacked, indicate that this issue occurs after UX 164 
 Gambit is teaching a projectile class, so his sight is back  that places this issue after X 165 (9-24) and quite likely after school reconvenes following the Christmas break in M/HOL04 1/2 
 Appearing as teachers in this issue are Gambit (whose sight must be back, since hes teaching a projectile class), Nightcrawler (in new costume, teaching dramatic class), and Beast (who, in civilian clothes, gives out a science assignment for next week) 
 One school day, Davids kid sister, mutant wannabe Kim, visits the school. Rahne and Josh share a kiss. Noriko calls home only to be rebuffed. The New Mutants train the Danger Room. Weird things happen at Xaviers and Kim believes shes a mutant who can talk to the suspected ghost responsible. 
 Its freezing and jackets are worn by some at the Institute 
 Kim must have a school vacation  perhaps a prolonged holiday/winter break? 
 Green grass and autumn leaves at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #8 (1-14) 
 Continues directly from NX 7. After the Danger Room mysteriously turns on, the New Mutants are convinced that a ghost is at the Institute. Cyclops suspects Julian to be the culprit. Josh and Kevin get into an argument. 
 Cyclops and Emma are here in new costumes and Beast is in civilian clothes 
 Jacket weather at Xaviers 
 Both bare and leafy trees (in silhouette) are seen at Xaviers 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #8 (15-22) 
 The day after NX 8 (1-14). Emma suggests that Kevin see a therapist. Laurie and Josh go to have dinner with her mom. Suspecting that the ghost is a student who died in Magnetos attack, Kim and the other New Mutants try to find clues in a nearby cemetery. There they encounter a specter of a boy who teleports them away. 
 It is a school day at Xaviers 
 Its freezing and jackets are worn at the Institute 
 Bare trees and green grass and brush at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #9 (1-9) 
 Continues directly from NX 8 (15-22). The kids return to the cemetery, where they are found by Dani and Shan. Dani tells the group that the ghost is Jeffrey Garrett. Laurie and Josh end their date and Rahne breaks things off with Josh. 
 Green trees at Westchester 
 Full moon 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #9 (10-20) 
 The day after NX 9 (1-9). David and Noriko have a talk, Dani and Josh have a talk, and Emma takes Kevin to a psychiatrist to have a talk. That night, the New Mutants hold a seance and call forth Jeffrey, who tells his tale and repents. 
 This story is supposed to occur during the semester before NX 10, since in that issue Kevin notes that Josh and Laurie started dating last semester, but since this storyline must occur after Christmas break, Kevin may have meant last term 
 Dani still thinks that it was Magneto that destroyed the Institute in NX 9-FB 
 Kim Alleyne is fourteen 
 It is a school day at Xaviers 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #9 (21-22) 
 The day after NX 9 (10-20). Kim, who has another day to visit Xaviers, learns she is not a mutant. Jeffrey is admitted to the Institutes lower school. 
 It is a school day at Xaviers 

UNCANNY X-MEN #455 (1-4) 
 One day in Valencia, Psylocke appears out of nowhere on the spot where she died and is arrested by Action Force 

UNCANNY X-MEN #455 (5-15) 
 The day (24 hours) after UX 455 (1-4). The XSE team practices in the Danger Room and X-23 disrupts the training when she believes Logan to be in danger. Wolverine receives a phone call from old flame Mary McKenna and heads to Alberta, while the rest of the team are sent to Spain. 
 It is not long after XX 4 
 Sebastian Shaw is noted as still being in the hospital following the recent events of UX 454 
 Cyclops notes that X-23 is new to the Institute 
 It is a school day at the Institute (and X-23 is supposed to be in Karmas class) 
 Green trees in Spain and snow in the Canadian Rockies 

UNCANNY X-MEN #456  FB 
 The same day as UX 455 (5-15). Wolverine battles the Haukka after they attack his plane in Alberta. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #455 (16-23) 
 In Spain, the X-Men are shocked to see Psylocke alive. After Betsey is remanded to XSEs custody, they receive a distress signal from Logans plane and arrive in Alberta to find a hysterical X-23 warning of a threat as the Haukka approach the team. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #456 
 Continues directly from UX 455 (16-23). The Haukka attack, turn Rachel against her teammates, and defeat the X-Men. X-23 escapes and frees Psylocke, who engages the creatures in battle. The Haukka get away with the captive X-Men and X-23 and Psylocke go after them. 
 Snow in Alberta 

UNCANNY X-MEN #457 (1-16) 
 It is either the same day as UX 456 or the next day, depending on how long it takes the Haukka to get from Alberta to the Savage Land 
 The Haukka imprison Kurt and Bishop in the Savage Land, where they meet captive Saurians. The Haukka discover that Kaidans telepathy has triggered a genetic remodeling in Rachel, who believes herself to be Haukka. The captive Storm causes severe weather in the Savage Land and the Haukka hatch a plan to use Rachel and Ororo to cause global hyper-storms. Psylocke and X-23 arrive in the Savage Land. 
 The Haukka have been in the Savage Land for months 
 It is days before UX 457 (17-22) 

UNCANNY X-MEN #457 (17-22) 
 It is days after UX 457 (1-16) 
 The Haukka release Kurt and Bishop to hunt them for sport. They encounter Psylocke and X-23, who introduce them to their new allies, Ka-Zar and the Savage Land Mutates. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #458 

SABRETOOTH v2 #1 
One day, several weeks after Sabretooths last appearance, which I interpret as being X 164, with Creed having survived Logans attack. This story may occur after AF3 12. The Coast Guard ice cutter Polar Sun receives a distress call from the isolated Isle Dupree  a woman claims a monster is loose on the island, and is killed while on the radio. The cutter heads for the island, where Sabretooth stands over the womans body. He writes Leave or Die on the outside of the house, and stalks off. When the Coast Guard arrive, they find massacred men everywhere, and follow some chimney smoke to a cabin where two boys are locked in the basement. Hamilton, the landing party leader, descends to help the boys and the rest of the men are attacked and killed by Sabretooth. Back at the dock, Sasquatch arrives to offer assistance. It is winter, January 20th. 

SABRETOOTH v2 #2 
The same day as SABRE2 1. Sasquatch orders the Coast Guard men to stay aboard their ship and begins searching the island. He is attacked by Sabretooth and, as they battle, Sasquatch falls into a pit set up by Sabretooth. Meanwhile, the Coast Guard get fed up waiting, and another landing party goes to retrieve the first. This landing party is quickly dispatched by a looming, shadowy creature, and later, back at the cabin, a shadowy creature approaches the front door. We see a blizzard on Lake Superior. 

SABRETOOTH v2 #3 (1-15) 
The same day as SABRE2 2. Hamilton machine-guns the creature at the front door, who is revealed to be a badly injured Sasquatch. Smitty, the only survivor of the second landing party, makes his way back to the ship as Sabretooth watches and grins. Back at the ship, the remaining Coast Guard men are attacked and massacred, and Smitty hears the battle from the dock. As Sabretooth surveys the carnage and leaves the ship, he finds Smittys corpse in the snow; he shot himself. 

SABRETOOTH v2 #3 (16-20) 
The morning after SABRE2 3 (1-15). As Hamilton stitches Sasquatchs wounds, Sasquatch explains that hes alone and has been tracking Sabretooth for several weeks. Hamilton believes that Sabretooth is hunting the men of Isle Dupree, but Sasquatch reveals that Sabretooth is only after one creature, the Wendigo. 

SABRETOOTH v2 #4 
The same day as SABRE2 3 (16-20). Wendigo attacks the cabin, and Sasquatch (whose enhanced metabolism has healed most of his wounds) attacks him, driving them both out into the storm. Sabretooth shows up at the cabin and explains that hes been hunting and terrorizing the Wendigo for weeks, driving him far from his natural habitat. Its the Wendigo whos been attacking and killing the islanders and the Coast Guard out of instinct and self-preservation. Sasquatch makes an impassioned plea to Wendigo to let him help get him home, but Wendigo mauls Sasquatch savagely. As Wendigo sees a second ship approaching across the lake, Sabretooth finds and attacks him and the two plunge off a cliff and through the ice. They sink through the freezing water, still fighting. Later, back at the cabin, Sabretooth shows up and tells Hamilton that its all over and walks off wearing a crude coat made of the Wendigos skin. Full moon. 

GAMBIT v4 #3 
 Remy steals the supernatural deck of cards from Morgan Penrose, only to be subdued by rival Jack Jessup 
 Green grass and trees in New Orleans 
 Full moon 

WOLVERINE v3 #20 (2p3-2p4) 
One day, weeks after W3 20 (1-2). Ichiro sits on a bench in the park, in grief that no one seems to be able to help him recover his son. Not knowing to whom to turn to, he calls up Logan. 

WOLVERINE v3 #20 (3-12) 
One day shortly after W3 20 (2p3-2p4). Wolverine is in Nagasaki, carrying two duffle bags which are supposed to be filled with the money the kidnappers want. He meets the kidnappers in a graveyard, and gives them the duffle bags, which the kidnappers discover is not filled with money after all. Wolverine starts to kick their butt, but then un-dead ninjas pop out of the ground, and Logan figures out this is a trap, and hes been set up. The Gorgon appears and defeats Wolverine. As Logan blacks out, the Gorgon says they killed the boy. 

WOLVERINE v3 #20 (13-14) 
One day, one week after W3 20 (3-12), during which time Logan is missing. Kitty Pryde is at Ichiros house, questioning Ichiro and his wife. No one has heard from Logan since he went to meet with the kidnappers. Ichiros wife says she feels in her heart that her son is dead. Green trees in Japan. 

WOLVERINE v3 #20 (15-17) 
One day, one month after W3 20 (13-14). This segment occurs a couple of days before W3 20 (14-23) and must occur after NTB 4. Gorgon was taken down 18 months ago and was resurrected three weeks later. In Minneapolis, Nick Fury, Elektra, and SHIELD agents are at a Catholic church, the apparent scene of a brutal occult ritual murder. Elektra confirms this is the work of the Hand. Fury says hes smoked out a plot to take down sixteen key figures in the superhuman community and Wolverine was at the top of the list. Elektra says shell work for Fury again, taking the case since it involves the Hand. Just then, a SHIELD agent comes up to Fury and says that Wolverine has just been found in South America. Its snowing hard in Minneapolis. 

WOLVERINE v3 #20 (18-24) 
The day (12 hours) after W3 20 (15-17). It is three or four years after W/NF:SR. Elektra steps off a helicopter onto a SHIELD aircraft carrier in the South Pacific, which is where theyre keeping Wolverine. A soldier informs Elektra they found Logan in Argentina, with ho hair, one eye, and ninety percent burns. They tell Elektra Logans now in their sick bay, unconscious and healing. As Elektra heads to sick bay, Logan wakes up. A voice in his head tells him to kill the nurse attending him. He at first resists, but quickly submits, killing the nurse and putting on his costume. Suddenly, all the power goes out on the security systems in the carrier. In the dark of the hallways of the carrier, Elektra is confronted by Wolverine. 

WOLVERINE v3 #21 (1-13) 
The same day as W3 20 (18-24). Wolverine and Elektra do battle, with SHIELD agents getting caught in the middle and getting sliced up by Wolverine. Elektra starts to get the upper hand on Wolverine, but just then, an explosion from a bomb planted by Logan rips through the carrier, which starts to sink. Water floods into the carrier, separating Wolverine and Elektra and killing several SHIELD agents. Wolverine escapes out the hole in the carrier and swims away. Elektra and the surviving SHIELD agents evacuate the carrier. Elektra says this was a trap, and that they need to check and see if Wolverine tapped into the SHIELD carriers system mainframe. Logan downloaded Defense codes, Pentagon files, White House security details. Elektra says, I'm afraid you didn't find Wolverine gentlemen. Wolverine found you. 

WOLVERINE v3 #21 (14-23) 
The day (24 hours) after W3 21 (1-13). It is a couple of days after W3 20 (15-17). In Manhattan, Nick Fury is in conference with Elektra and top SHIELD agents aboard the Helicarrier. Fury says that trying to locate Wolverine telepathically doesnt work as the Hand has supernatural shields in place. Fury says theyve uncovered what the Hand, Hydra, and Dawn of the White Lights plan is  to kill super-heroes and reanimate them as un-dead warriors to go out and kill others. Fury says theyre going to put all super-heroes on red alert and lock them down until they can capture Wolverine. Air Force One lands on the helicarrier. That night at the Xavier Institute, Kitty Pryde has tucked all of the younger students of the school into a group room, where theyre to sleep together (so school is in session; probably the second semester). She says the whole school is in lock-down, and everyones sharing rooms. Kitty is sleeping in the same room as Ororo. The last of the Baxter Building employees leave the building. Sue Storm overhears these last two employees bad mouthing the FF and complaining about the evacuation of the building. She then steps inside the Baxter Building, and Ben puts the place into lock-down, but he doesnt know is that Wolverines already inside the building. Emma Frost is BTS. Kitty says to Ororo, All those prayers worked for Peter, right? Fingers crossed they work for Logan now, too.  this places this segment after ASTONX3 6 (20-23). 

WOLVERINE v3 #22 
 The same evening as W3 21 (14-23). Wolverine fights the FF and manages to escape the Baxter Building with a disc containing specs to Reed Richards inventions, which Hydra wants to use to develop weapons. 
 The FF are living in the Baxter Building and Johnny is dating Sabrina, so this story presumably occurs after Kourtney leaves for LA following FOUR 13 (6-11) 
 Johnny notes that SHIELDs put the whole building into lock-down for twenty-four hours 
 Franklin hasnt seen Reed in almost two days because Reeds been working on a terraformer for forty-eight hours 
 Tony Stark and Hank Pym appear here, linked from unknown remote locations; Pym may be in England, given that he was heading for Oxford a month after A:FINALE 
 Strucker (who appears here without his trademark scar) sends instructions to the Hand to create ten new super-agents within the next seven days and wants to retrieve Logan to retool him for a brand new assault on Tony Stark and the heart of the American banking industry. Hydras secret bank roller [Elsbeth von Strucker] arrives at midnight tonight. 

WOLVERINE v3 #23  FB (2p1, 2p3) 
 Probably the night of the day after W3 22. At ten twenty-seven, Wolverine and 100 Hydra agents attack Stark International and by ten forty-one, they slaughter security and trash all Starks defense programs. Logan then pats a dog. 

WOLVERINE v3 #23 (1-4) 
 The same night as W3 23-FB. Elektra and Nick Fury show up at the site of the trashed Stark International twenty minutes after a SHIELD crew pull the Hornets dead body out of the rubble. Elektra decapitates the Hornet to prevent him from becoming a resurrected member of the bad guys death cult. 

NEW INVADERS #6 
The day after INV3 6-FB. It is months after INV3 0. This story must occur shortly after W3 22; the Invaders have heard rumors of Logan being brainwashed, but apparently have not been notified officially by SHIELD. Baron Von Strucker dispatches Wolverine to kill Professor Eckhardt so that the secrets of the Pterorists do not fall into enemy hands. Logan kills Atlantean advisor Sulumor and attacks U.S.Agent, Namor (now in his black costume), and Blazing Skull, who have just arrested Eckhardt. Walker ignores an order from Thin Man to leave Namor at the mercy of Logan and the Invaders succeed in evacuating the scene with both Namor and Eckhardt. Hydra scrubs Logans mission. 

NEW INVADERS #7 
The day after INV3 6. The Invaders have reunited aboard the Infiltrator and have been trying to track Wolverine since yesterday. Namor is bandaged up and will be on his feet in a few days. Jim Hammond takes over the Invaders. Thin Man tries to extract information about the Axis Mundi from Agent Axis, who Professor Eckhardt was forced to resurrect. Captain America arrives on the Infiltrator to shut down Thin Mans operation. 

NEW INVADERS #8 
The same day as INV3 7. 

NEW INVADERS #9 

NEW THUNDERBOLTS #1 
One morning. It is two days before NTB 2 and must be more than two months after A/TB 6 (17-20). The Avengers are noted as being disassembled (presumably meaning disbanded), so this story must occur after A:FINALE. Mach-4 has gathered Blizzard and mechanic Erik Josten and invites Songbird to join his new Thunderbolts, for whom hes set up a headquarters at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. They all respond to an attack on Manhattan by Fathom 5 and are joined by Genis-Vell. Sensing an attraction between Genis and Melissa, Josten views Genis as a threat and attacks the alien hero, spontaneously growing to Atlas size. The villains get away and Abe reports to the teams investor, Baron Von Strucker. Green grass and trees in New York. 

NEW THUNDERBOLTS #2 (1-9) 
One day, two days after NTB 1. The T-Bolts battle and defeat the Wrecking Crew and Speed Demon shows up to join the team. The Purple Man plots against the T-Bolts. 

NEW THUNDERBOLTS #2 (10-22) 
Probably the day after NTB 2 (1-9). This storyline must occur after W2 20 (13-14). Reed Richards appears; a reporter notes his being the leader of the beleaguered Fantastic Four, and a U.N. delegate notes his recent escapades in Latveria, clues that this segment occurs after FF 511. Seeking justice for the terrorism of Fathom Five, the T-Bolts crash Namors address to the U.N. (whose building is noted as having been rebuilt after the Kang War). Seeking Namor as part of the Great Game, Joystick, Polestar, and Tremolo attack, under observation of the Referee. When the Gaming Council activates a two-minute warning for a failsafe explosive, the heroes try to jam the transmission and offer Joystick a spot in the T-Bolts. Their efforts fail, though, and the U.N. building explodes. Namor is back in his classic trunks. 

NEW THUNDERBOLTS #3 
The same day as NTB 2 (10-22). This story must occur sometime after SPECSM3 20, given that Spidey suggests that his webbing is natural (Im probably gonna need a truckload of Twinkies to replenish my web-supply now). Subby may appear here (now recovered) after INV3 9. The T-Bolts, along with Subby, Reed Richards, Spidey, and Code Blue, evacuate the UN Building and keep it from collapsing. Radioactive Man arrives to absorb the radiation leak from the explosion and is offered membership in the T-Bolts. Meanwhile, Atlantean troops battle Fathom Five and a new Swordsman skewers Baron Von Strucker. 

NEW THUNDERBOLTS #4 
The same day as NTB 3. This story must occur before W3 20 (15-17). Strucker is saved by the death spore virus in him. Wolverine, working for the Dawn of the White Light, shows up and attacks Strucker. Caught in the Hydra civil war, Swordsman defends Strucker, who gets away. Swordsman leaves Logan and reports to the Purple Man (who must be here between ALIAS 28 and NA 1). Songbird recovers in the hospital and Captain Marvel appears in a glowing cocoon in the Atlantic. As Jenkins meets with Warbird (back in classic costume again) to ask for clearance for Joystick and Speed Demon, Fathom Five attacks. It is warm enough in New York for dining al fresco; this seems to contradict the winter seen in W3 20 (15-17). 

NEW THUNDERBOLTS #5 
The same night as NTB 4. The Thunderbolts gather to battle Fathom Five, with Jenkins having to don his old Beetle armor to participate. As the battle rages, a fleet of Hydra ships materializes in the skies over Manhattan. 

NEW THUNDERBOLTS #6 
The same night as NTB 5. 

WOLVERINE v3 #23 (5-15) 
 Elektra fights a squadron of Hand operatives. Kitty and Emma discuss Logans attack on a cathedral, as reported on the news, then Emma gathers the Institutes pre-cogs to see if they can help locate Logan through Cerebra. Elsbeth von Strucker torments her husband. 
 Elektra notes that Wolverine has been out there for five weeks now. Five weeks and eighteen significant attacks. 
 It has been three months since Strucker has seen Elsbeth, whos been in Europe all that time 
 It is snowing in New York City and Westchester and we see bare trees and snow on the ground in Washington, DC 

WOLVERINE v3 #23  FB (17p3) 
 Earlier in the week of W3 23 (16-22), Logan helps the victim of an attempted sexual assault and butchers her attackers. 

WOLVERINE v3 #23 (16-22) 
 Cap and the Falcon bust up a Hydra cell. Fury reports on Wolverines attacks this week, including three banks, a credit union, and a naval liner and a report just in of an attack on Manhattans IRS complex. Logan then cuts power in Manhattan and he and the Hand drop in on Matt Murdock while hes sleeping. 
 Fury notes that the psychics are saying hes two weeks away from a major act of domestic terrorism at the White House 

WOLVERINE v3 #24 
 Continues directly from W3 23 (16-22). Daredevil beats the Hand and Wolverine falls on the sword of a defeated Hand assassin. The skewering frees Logan from his brainwashing and Hydra teleports him away. Meanwhile, Gorgon II defeats and captures Elektra. 
 Its a snowy night with bare trees in New York 
 The finale of Struckers plan, the assassination of the president, is scheduled for tomorrow night 

WOLVERINE v3 #25 (1-8) 
 The day after W3 24. Cap, Iron Man, and SHIELD are in Washington, protecting the president from Logans attack. But Logan has snuck into the Xavier Institute and, equipped with Reed Richards terraformer, tries to force Rachel to use Cerebra to kill the president remotely 
 Green trees in Washington DC 

WOLVERINE v3 #25 (9-23) 
 Early the morning after W3 25 (1-8). Rachel uses Cerebra to tap into Reed Richards mind and gain the knowledge she needs to disarm the terraformer telepathically. Thwarted, Logan attempts to teleport but can only do so in short hops through the Institutes property, where he is attacked by X-Men, including a sighted Gambit. Logan is defeated and taken into SHIELD custody, but only after he lacerates Havok and Beast and kills Northstar, who thus must appear here after NM 10 (16-19). 
 The Falcon appears here, so he must have decided against giving up being a superhero as hinted in A:FINALE 
 It is seventy-two hours before W3 26 
 Green grass and bare trees in Westchester 

WOLVERINE v3 #26 (8-10) 
 It is seventy-two hours (three days) after W3 25 (9-23) and eighteen months after W3 26-FB (in which we see autumn leaves in Japan) 
 24 super-beings have been killed and snatched by the Hand in the past 24 hours 
 Elsbeth and Gorgon share a touching moment and (presumably) that night, Elektra and the Hand kill Slyde and the Spot 
 Bare trees and snow in Germany 

WOLVERINE v3 #26 (11-23) 
 Presumably the day after W3 26 (8-10) 
 Northstar isnt due to be cremated for another two days  the delay is due to difficulties in contacting his family 
 41 super-beings have been killed and snatched by the Hand this week and sixty to seventy super-villains total 
 Elektra and the Hand steal Northstars body from the morgue and Iceman, Moonstar, and Polaris fail to stop them. As SHIELD works on de-programming Logan (who may be active inside twelve to eighteen hours), the SHIELD helicarrier is attacked by a horde of super-beings re-programmed by the Hand. 

WOLVERINE v3 #27 
 Continues directly from W3 26 (11-23) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #8 (9-10p4) 
 One day. Warren shows Scott the nearly completed Wings Over the World, a facility that uses an anti-gravity atmosphere to simulate flight for disabled people. 
 Green trees 

X4 #1 
 Nearly nine hours after the space station Simulacra explodes this morning, the FF arrive unannounced at the Xavier Institute and they get into a fight with Logan before the FF ask the mutant team for help in rescuing Simulacra survivors. A team of FF and X-Men members heads to the station and encounters the Brood. 
 The tension between the two teams may be a holdover from their encounter in ASTONX3 7 or it could be the result of Logans attack in W3 22 
 Reed: I was actually hoping that Charles could join us before I start to explain. Logan: Guess youre not up on current events, eh? Charlie aint here no more. Scott and Emma run the school now. Reed: Oh...I see. I was not aware of that. 
 Gambit is sighted, and he, Cyclops, Emma, Nightcrawler, Logan, Storm, and Beast all appear in their Reload costumes, so this story must occur after X 165 (9-24) and thus after the Christmas break shown in M/HOL04 1/2 
 The Institute appears to be complete and intact 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

X4 #2 
 Continues directly from X4 1. The space-bound FF/X-Men team battle the Brood and discover that the space station crew have become hosts for Brood eggs. Reed detects a cosmic storm and recalls the mission, but its too late; when the heroes land back on earth, the X-Men have developed FF-like powers. 

X4 #3 
 Continues directly from X4 2. Reed, Johnny, Scott, Hank, and Ororo rush to the landing site and battle the mutated Logan, Emma, Remy, and Kurt. Logan escapes, but the others are taken back to the Baxter Building for examination by Reed and Hank. The Brood enter earths atmosphere aboard a space shuttle from Simulacra. 
 The FF are headquartered in the Baxter Building 
 Hank notes that secondary mutation is a phenomenon that weve been noticing over the past few years 
 Green trees in upstate New York 

X4 #4 
 Continues directly from X4 3. Johnny Sue, and Storm cause the shuttle to land safely in an evacuated midtown Manhattan. Hank and Reed come up with a possible solution for the mutated X-Men. The Thing and Cyclops find Logan in Canada, subdue him, and deliver him to the Baxter Building. Meanwhile, Brood ships appear over Manhattan. 
 Beast notes, given whats happened to the Avengers of late, its up to us to clean up here  thus its likely sometime between A:FINALE and NA 1 
 Green trees in Canada 

X4 #5 (1-22) 
 Continues directly from X4 4. Reed cures the mutated X-Men, who then join the battle against the Brood. Reed and Emma use Cerebro to create a mass hallucination among the Brood that Galactus and Phoenix have arrived and the aliens retreat in fear. 

X4 #5 (23) 
 One day, days after X4 5 (1-22). The Thing joins the X-Men in a baseball game at the Xavier Institute. 
 We see green grass and trees and light clothing at Westchester 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #8 (10p5-11) 
 One day, probably before XCAL3 11 (9-22) 
 Disabled children enjoy flying at the completed Wings Over the World 

EXCALIBUR v3 #11 (1-3) 
 One day, not long before XCAL3 11 (9-22). This prologue segment must occur after XCAL3 11 (4-8). 
 Given the references to Sage having installed Roberto as Black King, this segment must occur after UX 454 
 Courtney Ross dispatches Viper to Madigascar. 

Id place the first NEW AVENGERS story arc at this point  Wolverine and Barbarus (post-UX 459?) appear 

EXCALIBUR v3 #11 (9-22) 
 One day, six months after XCAL3 11 (4-8) and shortly after XCAL3 11 (1-3) 
 This segment probably occurs after XU2 8 (10-11), and Warren wears the same new costume here 
 Warren and Paige are in Zanzibar, seeking to promote a volunteer expansion corps of X-Corps, when Viper and the Weaponeers attack. The heroes, joined by Zanzibars president, the mutant hero Askari, battle the attackers. When Broadband picks up transmissions of the battle, Callisto, Shola, and Karima decide to go help. 

EXCALIBUR v3 #12 
 Continues directly from XCAL3 11 (9-22) 

MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #1  FB 
 On a school day, a mutant boy, Paul Patterson, manifests his powers in Peters high school. Wolverine attacks and Spidey webs him up. 
 Given X-23s appearance in M/TU3 5-6, this storyline must occur after UX 454 and probably after X 165 (9-24) 
 Given Spideys references with Cap in M/TU3 6, this flashback probably occurs after NA 3 
 My guess is that its a Tuesday 
 Green and autumn leaves on trees 

MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #1 
 Continues directly from M/TU3 1-FB. Logan escapes from Spideys web while the mutant boy leads Spidey to his home, where Spidey finds a corpse. 
 My guess is that its a Tuesday 

MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #2 (1-18) 
 Continues directly from M/TU3 1. Logan catches up with Spidey at Pattersons home and the two defeat the threat, causing an explosion. Logan calls SHIELD in to wrap up. Dr. Doom materializes in Latveria. 
 This segment occurs after the Avengers disbanded in A:FINALE 
 Logan is still complaining about his costume: Friggin Cyclops and his friggin new costumes. We have to astonish them. Give me a break. 
 Spidey remarks that Logan is on so many teams (this could be a reference to Logan being on all the X-teams, which Spidey would have to know somehow; it was originally written as a reference to his being on the Avengers, but was edited to place this story between A 503 and NA 1) 
 My guess is that its a Tuesday 
 Green trees 
 Full moon 

MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #2 (19-23) 
 The day after M/TU3 2 (1-18). Logan returns to the Institute and a sleepy Peter Parker reports to work at school. 
 Jubilee is seen leaving the Institute at 8 AM to move to L.A., so this segment must occur before JUB 1 
 Jubilee notes that Logan has been away from the mansion these last few weeks 
 My guess is that its a Wednesday 
 Green trees in New York and autumn colors at Westchester (this story continues directly into issues featuring snow and bare trees in New York, and Sunfire, perhaps before ROGUE3 7) 

JUBILEE #1 (1-4) 
 Jubilee arrives in L.A. to live with her Aunt Hope, so this segment must occur the same day as M/TU3 2 (19-23) 
 My guess is that its a Wednesday 
 Green grass and trees in L.A. 

MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #5 
 Continues directly from M/TU3 4 (19-20) 
 It is a school day; my guess is Thursday, the day after M/TU3 2 (19-23) 
 Storm catches X-23 watching security monitors at the Institute and notices a blip worth investigating. She heads off and runs into Spidey. The two fight and are caught by the alternate Stark. 
 Cyclops is seen in a third fitting for his Reload costume  given the timing of this series, this can be interpreted as a lengthy process of Scott trying to get his new Reload costume to fit right 
 Green trees in New York 

MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #6 
 Continues directly from M/TU3 5. Cap sees Nick Fury and Black Widow aboard the Helicarrier and they discuss the Diamondback LMD. As Spidey and X-23 battle the alternate Stark, the energy signature from the ersatz Starks work is picked up by SHIELD and Reed Richards notes the threat. Cap and Natasha join Spidey and X-23 in battling the alternate Stark (apparently from an alternate future), who notes an upcoming Titannus War. Patterson explodes and winds up in Canada with the Wendigo. SHIELD captures the ersatz Stark and Dr. Strange makes note of it. Titannus leaves the fallen Sunfire. 
 This story occurs after CA5 32 
 Spidey calls Cap Steve and refers to himself as a fellow Avenger  these may be clues that this story occurs after NA 3 
 Its been a while since Cap last saw Natasha, which was probably in A 503 
 Full moon 

JUBILEE #1 (5-13) 
 The day after JUB 1 (1-4). On Jubilees first day at her new school, she meets a nerd named Meg Devereux and they go the mall afterward. There, Jubilee attracts the attention of popular guy Dale Spangler and his jealous girlfriend Missy Lopez. 
 Jubilee is introduced as a new student to the rest of her class, meaning that the school year has already started at Payton-Noble High  based on the timing of NA six months after A 503 and the placement of M/TU3 1-6 and this tie-in JUB storyline after NA, it may be the start of fourth quarter 
 My guess is that its a Thursday 
 Green trees in L.A. 

JUBILEE #1 (14-23) 
 Probably the day after JUB 1 (5-13). Missy picks a fight at school with Jubilee, who retaliates with her power, exposing herself as a mutant. To avoid expulsion, Jubilee agrees to be a peer counselor. Dale apologizes for Missy. 
 My guess is that its a Friday 
 Green trees in L.A. 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #10 
 It is a school day at the Xavier Institute. Its the first day of an elective class on leadership and tactics taught by Cyclops; I theorize that its the start of the final quarter of the school year 
 Feeling a bit useless, David sees Emma Frost to investigate the limits of his power. Emma tells him that a mental block prevents him from retaining knowledge he absorbs. David decides to have Emma lift the blocks, but instead she and Dani show him the possible consequences of his unfettered power through a mental illusion. 
 Green grass and trees at Westchester 

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #11 
 Continues directly from NX 10. Thanks to the vision shown to him by Dani and Emma, David understands his mental block and chooses to keep it. Later, Kevin tells Josh to break up with Laurie or hell tell the whole school about his relationship with Rahnelast semester (presumably in NX 6). 

JUBILEE #2 (1-11) 
 On a school day, kids pick on Meg and Dale tells Jubilee that he and Missy broke up. That night, Aunt Hope gives Jubilee at moped. 
 My guess is that this is the Monday following JUB 1 (14-23) 
 Green trees in L.A. 

JUBILEE #2 (12-14) 
 The day after JUB 2 (1-11). At school, Jubilee is told to start her counseling tomorrow. That night, Aunt Hope leaves for a business trip until tomorrow. 
 My guess is that its a Tuesday 
 Green trees in L.A. 

JUBILEE #2 (15-22) 
 The day after JUB 2 (12-14). Jubilee makes a move on Dale, but he tells her that he and Missy got back together. Jubilee gives advice to Meg. That night, Aunt Hope comes home hiding a wound she received at her work. 
 My guess is that its a Wednesday 
 Green trees in L.A. 

ROGUE v3 #7 (1-12) 
 It is three days after a Tokyo newspaper printed a story about Sunfires family ties to crime and terrorism and Sunfire has not slept in that time 
 Based on publication order of story arcs, Sunfire is probably here after M/TU3 5 
 It is years after UX 64 
 In a diner, Rogue sees a TV report noting that today the Japanese government suspended Sunfires status as national protector pending an investigation. The report shows a photo of Sunfire with Rogue and Mystique, but Rogue cannot remember any such meeting. Logan leaves a message on Sunfires answering machine, offering to help. Disgraced, Sunfire instructs Silver Samurai to kill him but they are interrupted by a call from Rogue, who wants to help Shiro solve the mystery of the photo. The Samurai offers to have a plane retrieve Rogue within hours. 
 Rogue is wearing a coat 

ROGUE v3 #7 (13-22) 
 The day after ROGUE3 7 (1-12). A plan arrives to pick up Rogue, who thinks that shell be in Japan within twenty-four hours. Lady Deathstrike emerges from the plane and attacks Rogue. Rogue defeats Deathstrike and takes off in the plane. Silver Samurai reports to his boss about Deathstrikes defeat. 
 We see green grass and melting snow and people wearing coats wherever Rogue is 

ROGUE v3 #8 
 The day after ROGUE3 7 (13-22). Rogue arrives in Japan and ambushes Sunfire, who she thinks sent Deathstrike after her. She invades his mind and discovers he was duped by Silver Samurai. Kenuchio beheads a bunch of Yakuza leaders and brings the heads back to his captive, the memory thief who reset his mind. She gets Kenuchio to set her free, but Deathstrike shows up. 

ROGUE v3 #9 (1-11) 
 The night (in Japan) of the day after ROGUE3 8. It is a day and a half after ROGUE7 (13-22). 
 Rogue and Sunfire shake down some lowlifes and discover that Kenuchio killed every Oyabun in Tokyo last night. They also find out about a meeting of gang chiefs tomorrow night. 
 It is a Saturday 
 Full moon 

ROGUE v3 #9 (12-23) 
 The night (in Japan) of the day after ROGUE3 9 (1-11), so it must be Sunday 
 At the gang chiefs meeting, Silver Samurai calls for their allegiance. Rogue and Sunfire attack and Kenuchio escapes, but Rogue discovers where his safe house is. 

ROGUE v3 #10 

X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #8/2 
 One day. Beast takes Kitty to the opera, but they are barred from attending. Hank then busts some thieves and Kitty takes him to a Marx Brothers late show at the cinema. 
 We see green grass and trees, light clothing, and students playing basketball and tennis outdoors at Xaviers 


If this basic order doesnt look right, or if Ive missed essential clues, or if I've failed to re-edit entries after I moved them, please let me know. Im assigning calendar dates to these entries that may actually make sense relative to Avengers, Spidey, and FF chronologies. The run of stories above would be placed between early July of Year 22 and April of Year 23.
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 10 Apr 2005 03:35 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 26 Mar 2005 04:50 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
 Sage uses her cyber glasses to call up a camera shot of the Danger Room, where we see Rogue (in a generic X-training costume) escorting students for a session that was booked for them, but Storm, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine (all in standard X-training costumes) are running through a session themselves; if students are signed up for the Danger Room, the implication is that the school year has begun. (There is no evidence that this scene has to occur at the same time as the previous scenes in Sages cyber glasses. The two different scenes with the Beast  poolside and in the med lab  suggest that Sage may be checking in at different times.)  
<<<

It would make more sense that Sage is looking at it all in one sitting (this does not, of course, mean that the scenes she's looking at have to be "live" - she may be reviewing footage from the past day or week. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
 Nightcrawler to Storm and Logan: Perhaps we should work together more often, ja? Logan: Tell me more about this XSE, Ororo. Storm: Someone has to keep the peace, Logan. The first generation of mutants needs to take responsibility for their heirs. Sage: Forgive the interruption, my friends. You have missions. (Sages statement implies that Logan and Kurt are officially part of the XSE team. This means that: theyve already been assigned to work with Sage; that Kurts statement was probably a tongue-in-cheek remark made after he knew they were to work together  if so its a change of heart from his objection in X 157; and that Logans inquiry about the XSE  after months of XSE members hanging with the X-Men  was prompted by the fact that he was now part of the team, as of X 157. The whole Danger Room session may have been prompted by the fact that Ororo, Kurt, and Logan all were put on the same team and they felt it necessary to conduct one of those drills Alex mentioned in X 157.)  
<<<

This ignores the setup of the XSE team though (then again, Austen did too). It's a volunteer unit that Storm, not Cyclops, has the final say on. Maybe Kurt was complaining about being roomed under Juggernaut or something in the XM157 scene. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
 The XSE team (without the injured Cannonball) return to Braddock Manor to find it in fine shape  Brian says, Im sorry I wasnt here when the attack happened. As ruler of Otherworld, my responsibilities keep me so busy I dont get back here often. The manor can usually take care of itself.  
<<<

Remember that this is all an illusion by Jamie Braddock that Rachel (briefly) sees through to the destroyed Manor with Jamie in the midst of it. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
 Nineteen-year-old Rahne tells sixteen-year-old Josh shes too old for him; age really should be an issue, as Rahne must be older than 19 by now  
<<<

By the 1:4 ratio the writers/editors usually use, 19's bang on for Rahne. (This is why the calendar method doesn't work - it makes everyone about twice as old as they're depicted at any given point) 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
 Rachel Summers appears here, so it must be after XX 46 (12-23) 
 The Xavier Institute appears rebuilt and there are students hanging around; this may mean that school has started or is about to start  
<<<

Surprised you didn't comment on the numerous art errors here, with Rachel's hair waaay too long (even at it's longest post-Reload point, it never reaches her shoulders in a non-Mark Millar book), and the students all in Old New Mutant costumes, when they should be in civvies (or in some differently-coloured varient of the current NM/Hellion suits, if the situation calls for costumes at all). 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
 Juggernaut is here in his gray costume and Sabretooth in classic orange and brown costume with fur (his first costume)  
<<<

Ummm... nitpicky again, but he got the Jim Lee suit years after he first appeared. 


Quote: 
>>>
DISTRICT X #4 
 Izzy switches from uniform to plain clothes here, so this story must occur after MADROX 4 

DISTRICT X #6 
 This story must occur before MADROX 3  
<<<

Ummmmm.... 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
CABLE & DEADPOOL #7  FB 
 Irene Merrywether interviews Nathan for the Daily Bugle. 
[...] 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #7 
 Perhaps the day after C&DP 10-FB (8), as Irenes interview with Nathan appears in the Bugle 
<<<

As the interview says, she was fired over the events of C/D 6, this is freelance, and the interview isn't released until the end (well, "fifteen minutes" before the end) of C/D 10 (and then, it's released online, not in the Bugle) 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #8  FB (1) 
 Irene Merriwether interviews Deadpool [/quote] 
I'm less than convinced this is meant to be a literal interview. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
There, Wade is given an X-Men version of his own costume. 
<<<

Looks like a spare Cyclops costume with a couple of Deadpool trimmings to me :p 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And on Wolverine/New Thunderbolts: (1) I'm pretty certain Enemy of the State is the chronologically latest thing we've seen so far, X-Books-wise and (2) I prefer the placement that has NTB 1-6 between W22 and 23 (the rationale goes, IIRC, Strucker's clearly been taken down a peg between the issues. NTB1-6 accomplishes that) 
<<<

And the semester break's meant to occur between NXAX9 and 10, according to the writers of that book.

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Posted: 27 Mar 2005 01:36 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The NIGHTCRAWLER and GAMBIT series are not included yet (I do have GAM4 3), and JUBILEE #3 and up arent here either. Neither are the current HULK story arc guest-starring Wolverine and X-FACTOR: SHATTERSTAR, which just started.  
<<<

Are you talking about the Wolverine appearance in this current Peter David arc in Hulk?(issue 80?). I can assure you that's not going to turn out to be the real Wolverine. Hulk is encountering memories of famous moments in his life in this story arc, (in Issue 78, for example, he met the Gray Hulk from the early 60's). This Wolverine is going to be vintage Wolverine from when the two of them first met 30 years ago, (the costume matches even!).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 27 Mar 2005 12:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 27 Mar 2005 05:20 am    
By david

A couple of questions: 
1 - Where have Uncanny 450 to 454 & X Men 161 to 168 gone? 
2 - Does Jubilee 1 to 6, Marvel Team Up V3 2 pages 19-23 & X Men 165 go before or after Wolverine 20 onwards? 

Quote: 
>>>
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #6 (1-18) 
 Continues directly from NX 5 (15-23). Jay alerts the New Warriors and they go stop the Hellions from fighting the FBI. Alerted by Rahne, Scott and Emma arrive on the scene and send all the students back to the Institute. Kevin goes off with the FBI. 
<<<

I think you mean New Mutants here! 

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Posted: 27 Mar 2005 11:29 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Are you talking about the Wolverine appearance in this current Peter David arc in Hulk?(issue 80?). I can assure you that's not going to turn out to be the real Wolverine. Hulk is encountering memories of famous moments in his life in this story arc, (in Issue 78, for example, he met the Gray Hulk from the early 60's). This Wolverine is going to be vintage Wolverine from when the two of them first met 30 years ago, (the costume matches even!). 
<<<

Cool. Thanks for clearing that up, Kevin. 


david wrote: 
>>>
1 - Where have Uncanny 450 to 454 & X Men 161 to 168 gone?  
<<<

Thanks for pointing that out. My November/December post didn't take. I added this period to the beginning of the final post. The chronology should be as complete as I have it now. 


david wrote: 
>>>
Does Jubilee 1 to 6, Marvel Team Up V3 2 pages 19-23 & X Men 165 go before or after Wolverine 20 onwards?  
<<<

Go back and review the list now that X 165 is there. The order I have is X 165, then W3 20+, then M/TU3 and JUB. 


david wrote: 
>>>
I think you mean New Mutants here!  
<<<

Yup. I'll change that.  

_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Mar 2005 05:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
INVADERS v3 #6 
Baron Von Strucker dispatches Wolverine to kill Professor Eckhardt 

NEW THUNDERBOLTS #4 
This story must occur before W3 20 (15-17). 

WOLVERINE v3 #20 (15-17) 
This segment occurs a couple of days before W3 20 (14-23) and must occur after NTB 4. 
<<<

Wait, what? You've got Logan working for Hydra during the period when he's considered missing? 

That doesn't seem to make much sense to me -- first off, his New Invaders appearance was quite public. He wounded Namor rather badly -- wouldn't this be something that somebody would mention to SHIELD? "Hey, Wolverine's evil"? But SHIELD still has no idea where he is, or that he's been turned by Hydra, when they find him in W2 #20 pp.15-17. 

(By the way, the series is "New Invaders" v1 these days, according to the indicia -- not "Invaders" v3.) 

Also, having Logan attack Strucker that early on doesn't make a great deal of sense -- after all, Strucker is there during Logan's resurrection, and seems to be completely in control of Logan's missions during that period (up until #23, when Elsbeth shows up). What's the in-story rationale for Logan attacking Strucker in that period? 

What criteria did you use for this placement? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Mar 2005 09:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
INVADERS v3 #6 
Baron Von Strucker dispatches Wolverine to kill Professor Eckhardt 

NEW THUNDERBOLTS #4 
This story must occur before W3 20 (15-17). 


(By the way, the series is "New Invaders" v1 these days, according to the indicia -- not "Invaders" v3.) 
<<<

As an aside, for the sake of consistency in Paul's calendar, I agree that he may want to go with "NEW INVADERS"--if he's using NEW THUNDERBOLTS for that title--but don't look for either of these to make their way into our codes here. 

Here, it would be INV3, TB2, and A4, unless any of the teams go by that name. We tend to ignore adjectives in our codes. We don't list NEW X-MEN, or NEW DEFENDERS as a code. We've never listed INCREDIBLE HULK, INVINCIBLE IRON MAN, MIGHTY THOR, or MIGHTY AVENGERS, and "NEW" is just one more adjective. We *do* use NEW WARRIORS and NEW MUTANTS and FANTASTIC FOUR, because the adjective is part of the team name. AMAZING SPIDER-MAN and UNCANNY X-MEN are notable exceptions, because there were adjectiveless books being published at the same time. 

And, yes, I'm sure there are other exceptions. Thus the use of the word "tend." 


watching: law and order

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Posted: 28 Mar 2005 11:28 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
As an aside, for the sake of consistency in Paul's calendar, I agree that he may want to go with "NEW INVADERS"--if he's using NEW THUNDERBOLTS for that title--but don't look for either of these to make their way into our codes here.  
<<<

Yes, I will go with "NEW INVADERS" as the title, but I'll stick with the MCP abbreviation of INV3. Same with NEW THUNDERBOLTS and TB2 and NEW AVENGERS and A4. That approach seems to be consistent with what I've been doing.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just made a few updates... 

Post #1 -- updated the list of issues not represented yet 
Post #2 -- added info on this week's ASTONX3 9 and XPE 4 
Post #3 -- juggled the order of SECRET WAR and SPECSM3 20 to reflect some rethinking on Spidey's chronology based on this week's comics
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

No comments on my Invaders/Thunderbolts/Wolverine question? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 12:09 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just waiting for comments from others who followed Enemy of the State in its entirety (unlike me). Jeph, what is the best order for Enemy of the State? I'm flexible here. Maybe the Invaders appearance sometime during W3 23?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 12:41 pm    
By Somebody

See http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=7007#7007 

I haven't read Invaders, but I agree that between W22 & 23 makes most sense for Tbolts.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 02:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Somebody, for pointing me back to that thread. I think I'll place INV3 4-9 and TB2 1-6 between pages 4 and 5 of W3 23. At the end of W3 22, Logan was being retooled for an assault on Tony Stark and in the first few pages of W3 23, he attacks Stark International. So it may make more sense to place the gap for INV3 and TB2 after that attack. 

If no one has objections to that, I'll do another update soon.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Apr 2005 06:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The INVADERS story simply involves Wolverine turning up as a brainwashed agent of HYDRA and having a fight with the Sub-Mariner, before being pulled out and sent off to do something else instead. The Invaders have picked up rumours that Wolverine's been brainwashed, but evidently haven't received any official notification. That would suggest that it's shortly after Wolverine escapes from SHIELD, but close enough to justify the Invaders not having been contacted yet - after all, "Enemy of the State" does claim that SHIELD tried to notify all the superheroes about Wolverine going rogue, and the Invaders are relatively contactable, given that they're affiliated with the interim government of Mazikhandar. But since they're on the other side of the planet, it's perhaps understandable that they'd be a low priority for contact in the first day or so.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Apr 2005 03:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've edited the three original posts to reflect recent analyses, commentary, and publications. Hope things are a bit more on target, at least for now.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 12

Posted: 10 Apr 2005 06:57 pm    Post subject: Fafnir; first appearance odd note
By Enda80

Something odd occured to me. I was looking through Supernatural Thrillers#3, and I saw a double page spread appearance by Fafnir the dragon. 


Well, anyway, if you read on, his appearance is similar to the Frankenstein Monster's first modern appearance in X-Men I#40. That issue 
featured a robot that resembled the Frankenstein Monster, and so there was a brief (few panels) appearance by the monster in fb 
to the novel. Charles Xavier stated that he thought that the robot must have inspired the story of the Frankenstein Monster; 
of course, Xavier reached an incorrect conclusion, since the Frankenstein Monster exists on Earth-616. The main point I wish to draw your attention to; despite the fact Xavier's conclusion that the robot inspired the monster was wrong, the Official X-Men Index still cites this as the monster's first modern appearance. 

So, Supernatural Thrillers#3 features an adaptation of Valley of the Worm (read here for brief summary) 

http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timeline597.html 

During the time of the drift from Nordheim, an Aesir named Niord joined his tribe in their migration. (Niord and his people worshipped the Frost Giant Ymir.) During the journey, they encounter Grom, a Pict. Another Aesir named Bragi was also on the journey, as well as a woman 
named Helga. 

In the Valley of Broken Stones, Niord faces Satha, the great snake, and an odd monster. [Robert E. Howard's "The Valley of the Worm" in Supernatural Thrillers #3, reprinted in Kull and the Barbarians #1] 


Anyway, this story is framed as a memory by James Allison, a dying man who recalls his past lives, past reincarnations; in a double page spread, James Allison states that he believes that the story of Siegfried slaying Fafnir was inspired by "racial memories" of Niord Worm's Bane's battle in the Valley of Broken Stones. This, of course, was wrong.....on Earth-616, Thor was Siegfried (see Thor I#292-300). 

However, I would say that this still counts as an appearance by Fafnir, similar to how that fb in X-Men I#40 counts as an appearance by the monster. 

Also, this should be added to Thor's chronology somehow, as the recent Avengers Handbook confirms that he was Siegfried (Odin after all admitted to his mind wiping in Defenders I#109!).

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Thread 13

Posted: 10 Apr 2005 09:31 am    Post subject: The Beatles
By Dhall

There is no listing for the Beatles, who appear in Strange Tales 130.

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Posted: 10 Apr 2005 02:17 pm    
By Enda80

The Beatles are topical. Two of them are dead. Someday they all will be, even Pete Best. 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0078983/bio

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Posted: 10 Apr 2005 03:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I can buy the individual identities of the Presidents of the US being topical (given the pace of Marvel Time), but I would argue that other real-life characters who appear in Marvel comics are actually there. (Granted, I adhere to the belief that many "topical" events happen in a more condensed timeframe in the MU.) So I think we can list the Beatles, along with the Marvel Bullpen, Kiss, etc., etc. in the MCP, provided of course that they conform to the MCP rules of more than one appearance, etc.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Apr 2005 06:15 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
The Beatles are topical. 
<<<

Hmmn... A character appearance, is a character appearance.....that is what the MCP tracks (within it's own set of rules.) 

Seasons and pop culture references are topical, but actual on panel appearances...naah.

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Posted: 10 Apr 2005 11:59 pm    
By Jim Smith

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I can buy the individual identities of the Presidents of the US being topical (given the pace of Marvel Time), but I would argue that other real-life characters who appear in Marvel comics are actually there. 
<<<

Last time I looked several US Presidents are listed on the MCP anyway, so it's not even a double standard. 

I think the Beatles should be listed in the same lighthearted approach that allows for listings for Clark Kent and Chris Claremont. It doesn't mean that the MU's Beatles were still together in within the last decade, or that there's a Superman in the Marvel Universe, or that a metaphysically aware writer is manipulating the lives of the X-Men from within the MU. I wouldn't try to use the listing to advance a particular theory on how the Marvel Universe works--only to establish that these guys are in it in some capacity.

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 05:35 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Do the Beatles actually appear in any other stories, though? If they're only in one canonical story then it's all a bit academic. 

(Regular readers will of course recall that 1971's classic SPIDER-MAN VERSUS PAUL MCCARTNEY one-shot was not in continuity, due to the Fantastic Four wearing the wrong colour of belt.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 06:48 am    
By Dhall

Well, according to the FAQ if they appear in only one title, it's a judgement call, rather than being "a bit academic." If they appear in two titles, then it's automatic.

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 07:57 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I did some quick searching online, and the Beatles appear in the following Marvel Comics... 

Marvel Super Special #4, "The Beatles Story" -- Basically a history of the group in comic form. Canonocity debatable; nothing that shows other MU characters or contradicts MU continuity. It should be noted, though, that #1 is -- I believe -- the only issue of the series that is currently listed in the MCP. Most of the issues are comic adapatations of films. 

Not Brand Echh #8-9,12-13 -- Various cameos. Definitely not in continuity. 

Patsy and Hedy #110 -- Photo of the Beatles and a note about being considered "old timers by some of the younger rockers". These Patsy & Hedy stories were later deemed to be comics within the MU written by Patsy's mother. However they were supposed to be loosely based on Patsy's real life adventures. Canonocity debatable. 

Fantastic Four v3 #47 -- John Lennon is shown (and specifically cited in the narration) as still being alive in an alternate reality. Strictly speaking, this is a different Lennon than the one shown in Strange Tales, but one could argue that the presence of one in an alternate reality would necessitate the presence of a "real" one in the MU. Definitely in continuity. 

Marvels #2 -- The Beatles are shown at Reed and Sue's wedding. They're not specifically cited as the Beatles, but it's clear that's who Ross was trying to depict. Definitely in continuity.

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 08:15 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Nice work, Sean! Thoughts on canonicity:- 

If MARVEL SUPER SPECIAL #4 is intended simply to recount the careers of the Beatles, then it's a work of non-fiction, and therefore not intended to form part of the Marvel Universe. After all, we don't treat the MOTHER THERESA one-shot as canon. (Of course, the MU Beatles presumably had similar careers, but that's because they're a duplicate set of Beatles, not because this story is MU canon.) 

NOT BRAND ECHH, as a parody series, is definitely non-canon - although the OFFICIAL CRISIS CROSSOVER INDEX makes the surprising suggestion that NBE constitutes an alternate Earth and is out there somewhere in the wider multiverse. But it still wouldn't be the MU Beatles appearing. 

PATSY & HEDY is not presently treated as canon on the MCP, and I think that's right. The Marvel Universe status of PATSY & HEDY is that it's a series of stories written by Hellcat's mother, loosely based on Hellcat and her childhood friends. That's simply intended to justify the existence of Hellcat and her supporting cast in a superhero universe, rather than to assert the truth of each and every story. (If that was what they'd wanted to do, they'd simply have declared PATSY & HEDY to be canonical and been done with it.) Issues of PATSY & HEDY shouldn't qualify as an appearance for anybody - except, arguably, Hellcat's mum, typing away behind the scenes. 

FANTASTIC FOUR is definitely canon, but of course it's not the same John Lennon so it wouldn't count towards his listing. 

And that leaves their non-speaking cameo in MARVELS. A much stronger argument can be made for including this. The main point against it is that it's a period reference (a term I've just coined right now, for flashback stories which disregard the sliding timeline and don't update the period references). There is obviously no way that Reed and Sue's marriage took place in the 1960s. On any view of Marvel time, John Lennon ought to be dead by this point, and at the very least the Beatles wouldn't be turning up with their 1960s look.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 08:24 am    
By Dhall

Well there you go, Marvels #2 is canon. Two titles..... 

I don't think it is necessary to get into sliding timescales, or period hairstyles, an appearance is an appearance. 

Now, is MARVEL SUPER SPECIAL #4 intended to Quote: 
recount the careers of the Beatles, 
Or is it intended to be a fictionalized account of said careers in comic book form, in which case it Might (and I say Might) count as canon.

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 09:47 am    
By Jim Smith

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
NOT BRAND ECHH, as a parody series, is definitely non-canon - although the OFFICIAL CRISIS CROSSOVER INDEX makes the surprising suggestion that NBE constitutes an alternate Earth and is out there somewhere in the wider multiverse.  
<<<

The official index for a DC crossover suggests that a Marvel parody series is canon? In which publisher's universe?

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 10:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The CRISIS CROSSOVER INDEX is an odd beast - basically an attempt to wring a second issue out of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. The CRISIS index was officially licenced by DC but not actually published by them; it was actually written by Mark Waid and Murray Ward, as I recall, which gives it a bit of credibility if nothing else. 

Basically, the issue opens with a lengthy dissertation on the many alternate wolds of the pre-Crisis DC Universe. Somewhere in there, it ventures the suggestion that Earth-Marble (the home of NOT BRAND ECCH stories) is a distorted version of Crossover Earth, the world where DC and Marvel characters co-exist. 

While it may appear ludicrous to try and justify NBE as remotely canon, bear in mind that this IS against the backdrop of pre-Crisis DC continuity, which resolutely affirmed the canonicity of CAPTAIN CARROT AND THE ZOO CREW.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 01:48 pm    
By BobMM

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
(Regular readers will of course recall that 1971's classic SPIDER-MAN VERSUS PAUL MCCARTNEY one-shot was not in continuity, due to the Fantastic Four wearing the wrong colour of belt.) 
<<<

Well, that and the fact that Paul's guitar was ORGANIC, rather than being the one handed down to him from his Uncle Albert.
BobMM

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 07:29 pm    
By Enda80

Actually, the index called Earth-12 a "possible" "skewed version of Crossover Earth". "Its Marvel Universe counterpart is Earth-Marble, as presented in Not Brand Echh." serves as the only reference to Not Brand Ecchh." 

Earth-12 was where the Inferior Five worked, and since they ran into odd versions of Marvel Heroes, this analogy came up.

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 09:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
And that leaves their non-speaking cameo in MARVELS. A much stronger argument can be made for including this. The main point against it is that it's a period reference (a term I've just coined right now, for flashback stories which disregard the sliding timeline and don't update the period references). There is obviously no way that Reed and Sue's marriage took place in the 1960s. On any view of Marvel time, John Lennon ought to be dead by this point, and at the very least the Beatles wouldn't be turning up with their 1960s look. 
<<<

I agree with Dave -- an appearance is an appearance. And just because the Beatles appear at the wedding doesn't mean the wedding had to have taken place in "the 1960s" in the MU. Again, trying to label years and decades in the MU based on real-world topical references just doesn't work because of the different rates at which real time and Marvel time pass. Some would argue that because Event X happened 40 years ago real-time means it couldn't possibly have happened since FF 1 in Marvel time. I don't buy it. An identical event may very well have occurred in the MU only, say, 15 years ago. Call it "The Law of Condensed Topical References."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 09:57 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
"The Law of Condensed Topical References." 
<<<

Which is how the MU can have a presidential election every two years, or how Xavier could fight in Korea... Time passes at a totally different rate for the MU than it does in our universe.

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Thread 14

Posted: 17 Apr 2005 08:53 pm    Post subject: FF 61
By Dhall

The MCP lists Anna Watson as being in this issue, instead of Mary Jane. Oops!

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Thread 15

Posted: 11 Apr 2005 09:40 pm    Post subject: GLA #1 placement...
By Kevin W.
Director

It's a slow week continuity wise, (the big topic of discussion is the beatles?!?) so how about this: 

Where do the events of GLA #1 happen? Specifically, pages 12, (panel 2, of 2) to 16, (panel 1 of 4), wherein the Old Avengers are fighting the Ani-men. That scene transistions neatly into the next scene wherein Mr. Immortal is ready to disassemble the GLA, so one would think it's shortly after the Avenger's battle with the Ani-men... 

But Thor, Vision, Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch are shown with Captain America, and everyone's wearing there classic costumes...so this could be years ago...the only clue is that it's after there last appearance in Thunderbolts, (going by the newspaper headlines on the wall on page 12). 

And then there's pg. 17...Is it immediately after Avengers 503? Is it after Avengers Finale? The words are so ambiguous... 

"Darkest Day in Avengers History. The Vision, Antman, and Hawkeye have all been listed among the fallen. High ranking SHIELD operatives confirm the remaining team members have disbanded. The Avengers are no more." And then Flatman holds up papers showing Hawkeye's dead. 

If it was after Finale, you'd have thought that Mr. Immortal would've heard the news before now...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 10:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Where do the events of GLA #1 happen? Specifically, pages 12, (panel 2, of 2) to 16, (panel 1 of 4), wherein the Old Avengers are fighting the Ani-men. That scene transistions neatly into the next scene wherein Mr. Immortal is ready to disassemble the GLA, so one would think it's shortly after the Avenger's battle with the Ani-men... 

But Thor, Vision, Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch are shown with Captain America, and everyone's wearing there classic costumes...so this could be years ago...the only clue is that it's after there last appearance in Thunderbolts, (going by the newspaper headlines on the wall on page 12). 
<<< 


I'm just getting around to placing this issue. I think that a gap exists between panels 1 and 2 of page 16. Page 16, panel 2 shows Mr. Immortal in bed dwelling on the fight with the Ani-Men in the previous scene. His thoughts about this battle don't necessarily occur that night, or that week, or even that month. I'd place the Avengers' battle with the Ani-Men sometime around their guest appearances in X-STATIX 21-26 (which I currently have three months before A 500-503). This would be during the period between T2 79 (the end of the Gods and Men story arc) and T2 80 (the beginning of the lengthy Ragnarok story arc). 



Quote: 
>>>
And then there's pg. 17...Is it immediately after Avengers 503? Is it after Avengers Finale? The words are so ambiguous... 

"Darkest Day in Avengers History. The Vision, Antman, and Hawkeye have all been listed among the fallen. High ranking SHIELD operatives confirm the remaining team members have disbanded. The Avengers are no more." And then Flatman holds up papers showing Hawkeye's dead. 

If it was after Finale, you'd have thought that Mr. Immortal would've heard the news before now... 
<<<

This scene had to have occurred the same night as A 503 -- the deaths of Ant-Man, Vision, and Hawkeye are current news. The whole "disbanded" report bugs me, since formal disbanding doesn't occur for another "three months" after A 503, in A:FINALE. My explanation: either SHIELD had the facts wrong or the news media did. Hey, it happens...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Apr 2005 12:52 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
This scene had to have occurred the same night as A 503 -- the deaths of Ant-Man, Vision, and Hawkeye are current news. The whole "disbanded" report bugs me, since formal disbanding doesn't occur for another "three months" after A 503, in A:FINALE. My explanation: either SHIELD had the facts wrong or the news media did. Hey, it happens... 
<<<

Hmmm...I was actually leaning towards the theory that the news was immediately after the events of A: Finale, in which is was made public news that the Avengerse were officially disbanding...the newspaper headlines and newscast were more along the lines of detailed analysis of just went wrong that "Darkest of days...". Notice the newspaper headline focuses on Hawkeye's death, when you would think it'd be more all enclusive about all of the Avengers. 

In that scenario, Mr. Immortal would've heard of the events of Avengers 503, (everyone would've heard) but he's just then reacting to the news of the Avengers actually disassembling.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 12 Apr 2005 07:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm still leaning toward placement the same day as A 503, not A:FINALE. Note the dialog: 

Doorman, holding the TV remote: "Craig! Dinah! You gotta see this!" 
TV news reporter: "...darkest day in Avengers history. The Vision, Ant-Man, and Hawkeye have all been listed among the fallen." Emphasis mine; note it wasn't "were listed" -- the implication is that those deaths just happened. And that "darkest day" reference is consistent with the "worst day" reference we've been seeing in the intro pages of NEW AVENGERS to describe A 500-503. 

In the next panel in GLA 1, Flatman holds up newspapers and says, "I-it's for real. It's in all the papers too. This is awful. Just awful." "It's" implies the papers he's holding are current. One headline reads: "Hawkeye's Final Act of Heroism" -- I don't think they'd run that headline at a much later point in time, after A:FINALE; the disbanding would be the headline topic, not Clint's death. The other paper (partially seen) includes the words "Avengers" and "Disassembled" (not "disbanded"). Of course, "Disassembled" was the word used by Marvel in A 500-503, and in the case of the newspaper headline, it could refer to the team being in a state of disarray after the worst day in Avengers history. 

My interpretation is that SHIELD confirmed that the Avengers were effectively non-functional right after A 503 and some journalist misinterpreted it as being a formal disbanding. 

Of course, as always, future issues may cast more light on this...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Apr 2005 08:13 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The dialogue doesn't entirely match up, but I agree that the intention must be that it's A 503. The key point is that the news is unexpected. It's inconceivable that the GLA could have failed to notice Avengers Disassembled for more than a couple of days at the very most.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Apr 2005 10:54 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The Vision, Ant-Man, and Hawkeye have all been listed among the fallen." Emphasis mine; note it wasn't "were listed" -- the implication is that those deaths just happened. 
<<<

Good point, and probably the biggest clue that your interpretation is correct. The newspaper headlines were still too ambigious for me. The last page brings us back to the present, (July 13th) with Mr. Immortal blowing his brains out, and saying Avengers Dissassembled occured "two weeks ago", (the GLA immediately goes out on patrol after hearing the news). Let's see what references future issues hold...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Apr 2005 03:58 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Also, while the statement that the Avengers have disbanded may technically be a little premature, AVENGERS FINALE certainly isn't written to suggest that the Avengers have been running around having adventures in the interim since A 503, and have only just now decided to call it a day. After all, the characters are sitting around catching up on one another's news. 

The logical inference is that, with no headquarters and no resources, the Avengers shut down operations entirely after A 503. Months later, at A: FINALE, the remaining Avengers have a meeting and formally decide that they're not going to re-open. 

So although it's strictly speaking untrue to say that they've "disbanded" the day after A 503, it's not completely without foundation. The remaining team members have at least called it a day for the foreseeable future, and have no immediate plans to re-start.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Apr 2005 09:28 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Also, while the statement that the Avengers have disbanded may technically be a little premature, AVENGERS FINALE certainly isn't written to suggest that the Avengers have been running around having adventures in the interim since A 503, and have only just now decided to call it a day. After all, the characters are sitting around catching up on one another's news. 

The logical inference is that, with no headquarters and no resources, the Avengers shut down operations entirely after A 503. 
<<< 

This is reinforced by FF 517 where comments are made that no one -- including some of the heroes directly involved -- know what the exact status of the Avengers is. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
So although it's strictly speaking untrue to say that they've "disbanded" the day after A 503, it's not completely without foundation. The remaining team members have at least called it a day for the foreseeable future, and have no immediate plans to re-start. 
<<<

Bear in mind, too, how media outlets operate. If anyone with any remote degree of authority said that the Avengers might have disbanded, that'd be held as the gospel truth and propogated throughout the media.

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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 11:51 pm 
By Illya2

Quote: 
>>>
A 503. Months later, at A: FINALE, the remaining Avengers have a meeting and formally decide that they're not going to re-open. 
<<<

Okay so A 503 was definitely the calalyst for A: FINALE.
_________________
Give me liberty...okay more liberty...more

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Thread 16

Posted: 20 Apr 2005 01:03 pm    Post subject: Tiboro
By rhod

Tiboro has an appearance missed out: 

ST 129/2 FB 
ST 129/2 
**DRSTR 178

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Thread 17

Posted: 20 Apr 2005 01:08 pm    Post subject: Black Knight in Marvel Fanfare
By rhod

I just read Fanfare 52-54, and on perusing the Black Knights listings noticed that these issues are listed under both Black Knight III and Black Knight V. My understanding of the stories (not being too familiar with the character) is that Dane Whitman travelled back in time and occupied the body of a previous Black Knight, is this correct? 
This would explain why the Appearances are listed twice, however wouldn't it make sense to list one of them as BTS so as not to give the impression that they appear separately?

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 05:32 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

When the mind of one character occupies the body of another, our policy is to list both characters as full appearances. While we regret if anyone mistakenly believes from the listings that the appearances are for two separate characters, we do not apologize, because these people may be asking for information that the MCP was never intended to provide. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 08:20 pm    
By Enda80

Incidentally, a smilar case occurs with Loki and Odin in Infinity Gauntlet#2......though in that case it was not the intention of Jim Starlin, who wrote the issue. 

What happened was that Tom DeFalco in Thor I#455 or so revealed that from Thor I#432 (or so), Loki had surreptiously usurped Odin's body. This occured, as shown in flashback, before Eric designed the modified Thor uniform that he wore during the Gauntlet story.

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Thread 18

Posted: 20 Apr 2005 10:45 am    Post subject: Iron Man #151-#200
By Arthur
Director

continuing the audit... 

[edited Feb 24, 2006 to correct page numbering] 

Iron Man #151 - #200 

* adjustment required (deletion, split entry, change of some nature) 
** new entries 


ARBOGAST, BAMBI 

(one of those nebulous -BTSs...depends on the -BTS definition) 

IM 162 
**IM 163-BTS (22:5) Indries Moonji to Tony Stark "Your secretary told me when you planned to arrive" 
IM 164 


AVRIL, YVETTE 

IM 172 
**IM 173 unnamed; (6:1) 
IM 174 


COUNT NEFARIA, LUCHINO 
A 164 (up to 11:4 where Nefaria instructs the Lethal Legion to join him in lab) 
*A 166-FB (9:7) all meet in lab 
**IM 153-FB 4:2/2 beginning the augmentation process (Nefaria just watching) 
*A 166-FB (10:1) towards the end of the process; Nefaria getting power boost; and (10:2), after the process, the Lethal Legion leaves; Nefaria assaults Dr. Sturdy 
A 164 (17:2) Nefaria confronts Avengers 


DIABLO II/ESTEBAN DE ABLO 
FF 232 
**IM 159-FB 8:1-9:2 Diablo's escape from the Fantastic Four following FF 232 and his new life at Stark International 
IM 159 

Similar entries for the FF and Dr Strange, 

. . .DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
. . .FF 232 
. . .**IM 159-FB 
. . .DRSTR2 47 

. . .HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
. . .FF 232 
. . .**IM 159-FB 
. . .FF 233 

. . .INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 
. . .FF 232 
. . .**IM 159-FB 
. . .FF 233 

. . .MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
. . .FF 232 
. . .**IM 159-FB 
. . .FF 233 

. . .THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
. . .FF 232 
. . .**IM 159-FB 
. . .FF 233 


GARVIN, GEARS 

M/TIO 93 
**IM 183 
M/GN 27 


IRON MAN/TONY STARK 

IM 151 
**IM 152-FB (6:6-7:2) Tonys actions following his finding out Bethany was captured at the end of IM 151 
IM 152 


LIVING LASER/ARTHUR PARKS 
A 164 (up to 11:4 where Nefaria instructs the Lethal Legion to join him in lab) 
*A 166-FB (9:7) all meet in lab 
**IM 153-FB (4:2/2) beginning the augmentation process (Nefaria just watching) 
*A 166-FB (10:1) towards the end of the process; Nefaria getting power boost 
*A 164 (13:1-13:2) Lethal legion finds and challenges the Avengers 
** IM 153-FB (4:3) Beginning of the battle between the Living Laser and the Avengers; Living Laser at the peak of his power taking them all on 
*A 164 (16:4) defeated by Black Panther, powers fading 
A 165-BTS 
A 166-BTS 
**IM 153-FB (4:5-5:2) Living Laser absorbing too much power; approached and saved by East German agents 
IM 152 


MADAME MASQUE/GIULIETTA KRISTINA NEFARIA/"WHITNEY FROST"/BIG M/"KRISSY LONGFELLOW" 
IM 198 
**IM 199 MADAME MASQUEs mind is in Bethany Cabes body 
IM 200 


*MORLEY 
*IM 186 
*M/TU 145 
*IM@ 7 
The listing for MORLEY should be removed. This is MORLEY ERWIN and the three instances listed are already included in his chronology 


PITHINS, ARTIE 
Name should read: 
PITHINS, ARTEMUS ( IM 146 6:2) ARTIE 
**IM 124 
**IM 127 
**IM 137 
**IM 142 
**IM 146 
**IM 147 
**IM 148 
**IM 155 
**IM 173 
IM3 74 
IM3 75 


SITWELL, JASPER 

IM 174 
*IM 175-BTS The BTS should be removed. Sitwell is heard (though not seen) in 18:2, on the radio talking to Fury. 
T 337 


STANE, OBADIAH 

IM 198-FB 
**IM 162 (16:5) Unseen, but Stane communicates to Tattoo - "Attention Tattoo, implement plan Ultra 1800 hours". (I cannot prove its Stane. At the very least, Stane should get a -BTS listing for hiring Tattoo as per 166 pg 20 last panel) 
IM 163 


TERMITE/ 
**IM 190-FB 4p5-4p6 origin 
**IM 189 
**IM 190 
IM3 75 


*THUNDERSWORD Real name: Stewart Cadwall IM 197 (3:1) 
SWII 1 
IM 197 


UNICORN/MYLOS MASARYK 
IM 115 
**IM 154-FB (10:5-11:1) how the Unicorn regained his freedom 
IM 154 


*VIBRO/DR. FRANCIS VIBERAUX 
Just a note regarding the name: 
When first introduced (IM 186 3:1 and 4:1), the last name had a second E ...VIBEREAUX. IM 186 5:1 gives his first name as ALTON and the second E was dropped from the last name giving VIBERAUX. The second E was also dropped in IM 187 (15:1). The only other mention of his name that I know of is in AWC 58 (14:3) where Iron man recalls his name as FRANCIS VIBEREAUX (with the second E). 

Obviously open for interpretation. I chalked the Francis up to poor memory recall and kept the original first name ALTON. And as both the earliest and the most current spellings include the second E, I stuck with that also. Therefore VIBRO/DR. ALTON VIBEREAUX 


??? 

One questionHENRY GYRICH, IMMORTUS and ISAAC all have BTS listings for IM 190 (where IRON MAN IV battles a weak Obadiah Stane operative named the TERMITE). What constitutes the -BTS?

Last edited by Arthur on 24 Feb 2006 09:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 10:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
One questionHENRY GYRICH, IMMORTUS and ISAAC all have BTS listings for IM 190 (where IRON MAN IV battles a weak Obadiah Stane operative named the TERMITE). What constitutes the -BTS? 
<<<

I haven't checked IM 190, but I do know that the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #6 makes note of the BTS appearances of Immortus and ISAAC in IM 190 (see the entries for A 250 and 251). I believe that whenever the Vision appears anywhere during this time period (comics published in 1984), Immortus and ISAAC are automatically designated as (at least) BTS. The explanation for ISAAC is that the Vision's computer system is one with ISAAC's between A 238 and A 254. I believe Immortus' BTS involvement was explained later in issues of WCA.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 19

Posted: 18 Apr 2005 08:02 pm    Post subject: The Blue and the Gray
By Oedivanth

No, it's not a Civil War posting... 

I was wondering if Spider-Man: Blue and Hulk: Gray are canon. I've looked for the former within Spider-Man's chronology where I think it would fit in (with what little I know about its supposed placement) and I haven't seen it there. Neither series shows up on your FAQ page as non-canon. Daredevil: Yellow is canon. 

Any help would be appreciated.

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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 09:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

You'll find some discussion of Hulk: Gray here. 

IIRC, I don't think we established the canonicity of Hulk: Gray with absolute certainty, but we did agree that if it is to be canonical, then early Marvel chronology would need to be juggled to allow for the debut of Iron Man before the Hulk.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 09:22 pm    
By PopularLoser

As I recall: 

Daredevil: Yellow was declared canon in place of Man Without Fear. 

Spider-Man Blue was declared non-canon except for the framing sequence. 

I don't remember what the decision on Hulk: Gray was. 

Any clarification from the Directors would certainly help in case I may have gotten some of this info wrong. It's been awhile since I've been around the boards.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 10:09 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

PopularLoser wrote: 
>>>
As I recall: 

Daredevil: Yellow was declared canon in place of Man Without Fear. 
<<<

Nope. Man Without Fear is not canon. Daredevil: Yellow has been accepted. But in no way did DD:Y replace DD:MWF. The two determinations are unrelated. 


PopularLoser wrote: 
>>>
Spider-Man Blue was declared non-canon except for the framing sequence. 

I don't remember what the decision on Hulk: Gray was. 

Any clarification from the Directors would certainly help in case I may have gotten some of this info wrong. 
<<<

That's what Paul's doing. He's a Director. 


watching: superfriends

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Posted: 19 Apr 2005 12:56 pm    
By ChastMastr

If one assumed they were all canon, what order would the three series be in?

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Posted: 19 Apr 2005 06:20 pm    
By PopularLoser

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Nope. Man Without Fear is not canon. Daredevil: Yellow has been accepted. But in no way did DD:Y replace DD:MWF. The two determinations are unrelated.  
<<<

Than why is Man Without Fear non-canon? I thought it was because Yellow and MWF weren't consistent with one another. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
That's what Paul's doing. He's a Director.  
<<<

Paul B. and I both must have posted at about the same time because when I replied there were no other replies.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

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Posted: 19 Apr 2005 07:15 pm   
By Enda80

MAn without Fear is not canon since it contradicts too much of established DD trivia. It contradicts where he went to study law. Aside from that, Elektra's characterization is hopelessly off. 


More particularly 

1. The account of the Fixer's death is quite different, as is the account of the death of Jack Murdock. 

2. Murdock's academic time is presently incorrectly. Miller had earlier contradicted Daredevil#1 in his DD#168, but MWF makes it worse. Matt goes to Columbia for pre-law in both (clash with DD#1), then goes onto Harvard Law, and then works for a big firm in Boston. He does not meet up with Foggy again for years. This wipes out his time at State College, his graduating with Foggy, and his opening up his law firm soon after with Foggy. 

3. Matt's age relative to when his father dies varies from past versions. Most siginficantly, Matt does not wear his yellow costume for his attack on the Fixer (not Norbert Ebersol) but wears a bag over his head. 
Also, Marvel Saga located Matt's battle with the Fixer as taking place in the modern era when he had grown up and become a lawyer, *not* when he was a boy. 

Miller seems to have intended MWF as part of a movie treatment for Daredevil. Sadly, when he decided to adapt this story to the four color page, he did not make any effort to reconcile to established continuity. 

Do a search for at groups.google for "Man Without Fear" AND Canon for more input. 

I tend to dump these things on a hypothetical alternate Earth called Earth-Revised Origin. This is where I set such quickly forgotten revised origins as 

Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty 
Conan the Barbarian I#232-240 
Daredevil: The Man Without Fear 
Spider-Man: Chapter One 
X-Men: Children of the Atom 
Hulk Annual 1999 
The Truth? 

In most of the above cases, these revised origins have sometimes been referenced very obliquely (Harmon Furmintz from Sentinel of Liberty showing up in New Warriors, Cynthia Glass mentioned, etc.) while some stray scenes from MWF have been referenced (a -#1 Spider-Man issue even shows the Kingpin in a scene from the MWF). Other of these revised origins have been explicitly tossed. (CTB I#240 has Conan admit to his spouse that the story he told his son Conn was just a tall tale.) 

Anyone think of any other great tossed out origins?

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Posted: 19 Apr 2005 10:10 pm    
By Dhall

And that is what usually happens to new origins, they get dumped into the non-canon pile. So what's the point of Marvel doing them? 


Dave H

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Posted: 19 Apr 2005 10:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Money, I'd guess. 


watching: nancy grace

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Posted: 19 Apr 2005 11:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

ChastMastr wrote: 
>>>
If one assumed they were all canon, what order would the three series be in? 
<<<

First, understand that, many times, stories/books are declared not canon, because they don't...fit...anywhere. 

Once you accept that, you'll realize that, many times, the question above doesn't have a legitimate answer. 


watching: simpsons

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 10:21 am    
By ChastMastr

Well, perhaps, but with each other, which would come first?  I'm guessing Hulk was grey and not yet green before DD came on the scene, and all of that was before Peter was involved with Gwen Stacy... 

Are more "color" series planned? Thing: Orange, Sub-Mariner: Teal, Nick Fury: Magenta With Little Fuschia Spots, etc.? 

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2005 11:29 am    
By Somebody

ChastMastr wrote: 
>>>
Are more "colour" series planned? 
<<<

Nope - Loeb & Sale are DC-exclusive.

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 05:36 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

ChastMastr wrote: 
>>>
Well, perhaps, but with each other, which would come first?  I'm guessing Hulk was grey and not yet green before DD came on the scene, and all of that was before Peter was involved with Gwen Stacy... 
<<<

Still without answering the question of which series came first, the order of the events you list here is correct. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 08:34 pm    
By Enda80

Amusing sidebar about DD's origin. They once did a What If where Tony Stark followed the truck that struck Matt, and brought Matt to SHIELD's attention and that of Nick Fury. Matt then became a superhuman sense powered agent of SHIELD. 

A few issues later, someone wrote in pointing out the flaw; the flasback where Matt gets hit by the canister from the truck took place -10 years or -15 years from when he first became Daredevil, which was soon after the FF debuted. Tony Stark helped start Nick Fury as SHIELD after he became Iron Man, which was also after the FF debuted. So, SHIELD did not exist when Matt was hit by the canister........so this was never a possible variation on Earth-616, as Matt would have to have been born ten years later for this work out! 


(Daredevils' origin also inspired the TMNT, oddly enough. It also interesting to note that of the early 1960's introduced main characters, Daredevil was one of the few non-mutants who diagetically already had his metahuman powers before the FF took their trip. )

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 10:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm not quite sure how that's "amusing" ... but, you know, I'd assume the "possible variations" here are: 

1) SHIELD was formed earlier. 
2) Matt was born later. 
3) 1 + 2 

Still presumably happily within the scope of the Marvel Multiverse. 

Quote: 
>>>
Daredevils' origin also inspired the TMNT, oddly enough. 
<<<

You sure about that, or are you just inferring it from the "canister of material" similarity in both origins? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 10:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I tend to dump these things on a hypothetical alternate Earth called Earth-Revised Origin. This is where I set such quickly forgotten revised origins as... 
The Truth?  
<<<

As far as I know, TRUTH is canonical and has been referenced in modern-day canonical series such as THE CREW and (this week) YOUNG AVENGERS.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 10:49 pm    
By Kang

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
You sure about that, or are you just inferring it from the "canister of material" similarity in both origins? 
<<<

I believe they claimed him as a major inspiration in an interview I read when I was a child, but it is a long stretch that I remember that correctly. I know that the name of the Foot came from the Hand.

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 08:00 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Tony Stark helped start Nick Fury as SHIELD after he became Iron Man, which was also after the FF debuted. So, SHIELD did not exist when Matt was hit by the canister........so this was never a possible variation on Earth-616, as Matt would have to have been born ten years later for this work out! 
<<<

Actually, SHIELD did exist, but Fury wasn't appointed as director until after his first appearance with the FF. 

Iron Man: The Iron Age #2 establishes that Stark was working with SHIELD to design their weapons before FF #1. Fury #1 clearly shows that Nick Fury was chosen as director after the death of it's previous director, Rick Stoner. Marvel: The Lost Generation #10 also shows some of the early consideration given to Nick (and, I believe, Glenn Talbot) about becoming SHIELD's director. 

Oh, yeah... Not to mention that the frickin' Helicarrier was completed and operational when Fury was first "drafted" in Strange Tales #135, which also mentions the previous director (though not by name).

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 08:53 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
As far as I know, TRUTH is canonical and has been referenced in modern-day canonical series such as THE CREW and (this week) YOUNG AVENGERS. 
<<<

Yeah, TRUTH is certainly canonical. CREW, in particular, falls apart without it. 

It certainly creates a few timeline problems, but that's a quite separate issue. There are many, many canonical stories which have timeline problems or other continuity errors. 

I've made this point before, but I think people are far, far too willing to simply dismiss a book as non-canon simply because it contains continuity errors. It should take something quite extraordinary to render a book non-canon when Marvel intended it to be canon. After all, it's their universe.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 10:17 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Marvel intended it to be canon 
<<<

Well, we're not always sure what Marvel intends to be canon, and what they don't intend to be canon. It would be nice if they announced this in advance, but that's pretty rare that they do.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2005 11:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

True, there are cases where it's open to doubt whether the story is intended to be in continuity. Although I'm inclined to say that there's a very strong presumption in favour. We're really looking at books like KINGPIN which so flagrantly ignore established continuity as to justify the inference that they never intended to adhere to it, or titles where the continuity problems are so fundamental to the story that there's simply no way of excising them. (As opposed to, say, FANTASTIC FOUR: 1 2 3 4, which doesn't work as written, but can be made to fit by ignoring some minor references of no importance to the plot.) 

Anyhow, there's no such doubt about TRUTH, which has been founded on for plot points in other titles and was a central plank of CREW's storyline. Granted, you could say the same about DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR, which was erroneously founded on by Joe Kelly during his run on DAREDEVIL. But that's a different situation, because we know DD:MWF started life as a movie treatment and wasn't intended to be canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 11:14 am    
By Dhall

I agree with you Paul, but I'd like to pose the question, when you have a situation where a book does not work as written, how far should we go in hammering it into continuity? There's got to be a point at which we should throw up our hands and say it doesn't fit. Granted, this should be a much higher threshold, than for a book that flagrently ignores continuity.

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 11:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, I'm much less of a literalist than some of the regulars here. I'm much more concerned to preserve the essentials of a story than to maintain the literal accuracy of every line of dialogue. For example, I'm quite content to ignore a minor reference as an error, rather than adopt a strained construction of the story to explain it away (at least where the latter approach would result in a reading that weakens the story). 

So for me, the cut-off point is "Will the plot fall apart if I ignore the problematic references?"
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 05:39 pm    
By Enda80

Oh, it is irrefutable that the TMNT's origin was inspired by Daredevil. In the original comic book, the substance/canister that mutated them fell off of of an out of control truck. A young boy pushed an old man to safety, but was sadly hit by that canister before it fell on a group of turtles in the sewer. We know who that young boy was, don't we? 

(Stick, Splinter; Foot, Hand.......) 

I never really cared for alternates Earth where people are born ten years or twenty years later than they were on an another; DC did that with Earth-1 and Earth-2's Batman, Superman, Green Arrow (not Wonder Woman, who was already centuries old before she came to "Man's world" on both Earths, though on Earth-1 she came to man's world later), Aquaman, and probably a few others). However, FF Annual 1998 established something similar for the MU multiverse. 

Anyway, in the letters page of What If a few issues later, the editor admitted that the writer had not caught the anomaly, since Nick Fury was shown as part of SHIELD in that issue, when he did not join SHIELD until after FF I#21, which takes place in the modern era, and as noted, Matt Murdock gained his powers X-10 to fifteen years from the modern era.

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Thread 20

Posted: 23 Apr 2005 04:54 pm    Post subject: Wild Thing (Nikkie Doyle) as canon
By Enda80

Actually, stories where she would team-up with Shevaun Haldane were published in an Italian series, so it turns out that she is sort of canon (she seems to form part of 2020.)

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Posted: 23 Apr 2005 06:32 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I think that other non-English comics were dismissed as either not canon or not in the scope of the MCP when the subject of Euroforce came up. However, it does seem that Wild Thing was supposed to be a part of the shared 2020 timeline. 

-Sean

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Thread 21

Posted: 31 Mar 2005 05:12 pm    Post subject: FAQ update
By ChastMastr

Not that I think anyone was in doubt of this, but since Planet Terry and ALF and such are listed... 

Quote: 
>>>
Q. I don't want to waste time analyzing a book that's not canon. Is there any kind of list of books that the Project has already determined are outside of continuity? 
<<<


I think I'd add Archie Meets the Punisher. 

Yep, I'm pretty confident -- dear God, I hope so! -- that this is not canonical.  

David

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Posted: 14 Apr 2005 02:08 pm    
By ChastMastr

And here it is. Yes, Marvel really created this. 

http://www.superdickery.com/other/209.html 

I don't know why, but they did. And I think it's safe to assume it's noncanonical.

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 12:14 am    
By JLH

ChastMastr wrote: 
I don't know why, but they did. And I think it's safe to assume it's noncanonical. 


Why wouldn't it be canon? Punisher acts right for his character, as does all of the Archie ones. Just because you personally dislike the notion of such an eccentric crossover, doesn't mean it's automatically anymore off-limits than, say, X-Men/Star Trek was. At least both Archie and Punisher are actually COMIC characters.

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 04:10 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It falls foul of the general principle that cross-company crossovers don't count unless the plot actually involves the characters travelling from one universe to another. 

The only other way of rationalising these stories would be to say that the other company's characters have counterparts in the Marvel Universe - but if that were the case, the Marvel Universe heroes would have visited Earth-DC, Earth-WildStorm, Earth-Top Cow etc and recognised the local heroes from their counterparts in the Marvel Universe.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 10:20 pm    
By U-Man

Wasn't AMTP actually produced by Archie Comics? Are there any comic books not produced by Marvel on that list?

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 11:09 pm    
By JLH

It was a co-production. "Archie Meets The Punisher", a standard format book with a more Archie-themed cover, was by AC. "The Punisher Meets Archie", with a die-cut cardstock cover, was by Marvel. Same interior story, though.

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Thread 22

Posted: 21 Apr 2005 03:01 am    Post subject: NFL Superpro
By Roughneck

Why is there no chronology set up for the NFS Superpro? 

What Gives?
_________________
Why is it easier to trail oil drillers to go into space than it is to train astronauts to dig a whole?

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 12:05 pm    
By Dhall

These are canon right? I haven't read them myself. I'm starting to think that we need to start a list of known canon books that aren't in the MCP yet.

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 12:20 pm    
By Ant-Man

I read issue #8 (with Captain America) and there didn't seem to be anything that would keep it from being canonical.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2005 03:23 pm    
By Jason Doty

Any Marvel Comic not listed in the MCP that does not fall into the already specified non-cannon list and also does not fall into the first gap could be up for debate. Post an analysis. I'm also in agreement with DHall that we should make a list to see what has been overlooked.

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 03:29 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
These are canon right? I haven't read them myself. I'm starting to think that we need to start a list of known canon books that aren't in the MCP yet. 
<<<

Here's a start from last August, now somewhat out of date: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=509 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 04:07 pm    
By Dhall

Regarding NFL SuperPro, 
We need someone to submit anaylsis of these issues, so they can get into the MCP. Until someone does this, they probably won't get added.

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Posted: 26 Apr 2005 05:11 pm    
By Ross

"Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:01 am" 

Could this be the first known instance of drunken MCP posting? Chronology isn't usually the top thing on my mind when I'm stumbling home at 2 AM... 

The scary part is that he brought up a valid point for (however brief) discussion. I bet he thought he was being outrageous.

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Thread 23

Posted: 13 Sep 2004 01:43 pm    Post subject: Target Presents: Reading to the Rescue!
By jephyork
Director

How often has this happened to you? 

I'm walking to work this morning -- I spy a colorful bunch of papers lying on a park bench. "That looks like a comic book", I say to myself. "I wonder if it's a Marvel?" 

And lo and behold, it WAS a Marvel -- a promotional giveaway book from Target, a book I'd never even HEARD of before: 

"Target Presents: Reading to the Rescue!" 

Uh oh. A kids' book. But my collector's instinct kicks in anyway. "A comic I've never heard of?! I wonder if it has any X-Men in it?" 

And lo and behold, it features, among other heroes ... Jean Grey! 

How cool is that? Not only do I literally stumble across a comic I've never heard of before ... it turns out to be one I want to add to my collection! 

And best of all, it looks like it might fit into MU canon! Although it's aimed at kids, it's not written or drawn simplistically. Despite the goofy title, it looks and reads like a regular Marvel Comic -- albeit one where a group of kids help defeat a villain by reading (reading Loki's spells). 


This comic features Thor (in classic costume), Spider-Man, Captain America, and Jean Grey (wearing her Morrison-era outfit and manifesting the Phoenix raptor), teaming up to battle Loki, who is causing havoc at a fairground. 

There's one reference that doesn't fit -- Spidey is said to be at the fairground with "his *girlfriend*, Mary Jane Watson", rather than his wife. (But this doesn't appear to be Ultimate Spider-Man -- he and MJ are drawn as adults, and Peter calls Loki's rampage in to the Daily Bugle before changing to Spider-Man. This is the MU Spidey.) Other than the MJ mistake, though, it seems to fit nicely into fairly recent events. 

Thor is in his classic duds, and Loki is on earth -- that would seem to place it after ASM #503. ASM #500 featured Thor in classic costume, and #502-503 (if I recall correctly) featured Loki referencing Earth as "a place I haven't visited in quite some time", or the like. So his appearance on earth here should follow that. 

(Unless ... what was Loki's status at the end of ASM #503? He wasn't killed/banished/imprisoned, was he?) 

Since Cyclops also appeared in ASM #500 -- and we've placed that after he ran off in X #139 -- then Jean should appear here after X #139 as well. And since the school was locked down from X #139-141, then Jean should probably appear here after X #141 -- but before #142, the beginning of the storyline that leads to her death. 

I've got no insight on where Cap and Spidey would appear in this time period -- it's after ASM #503 for Spidey, of course, but I don't know enough to narrow it down any further. Any thoughts, anyone? 


By the way, this book has a blurb on the back saying "Target now has Marvel comics, including 17 exclusive titles that will get kids excited about reading." Wait, what-now? 17 "exclusive" Marvel titles? Does anyone know what these books are? It sounds like new-material ongoing series featuring Marvel characters, but that can't be right -- 17 of 'em? I may have to go hit up a Target store sometime... 


But -- yeah -- stumbling across a potentially canon comic that I didn't even know I wanted? That's a pretty cool way to start the work week. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Sep 2004 06:04 pm    
By Dhall

I'm very interested in this, as I cannot find anything on the web right now about it. Do you have any more information? Is there a date on the book, perhaps? There is nothing that I could find on target's website. I suppose I could drive down to the store, but if I don't see it on a shelf, I don't feel like making an idiot of myself asking for the thing....grin. 


Dave H

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Posted: 13 Sep 2004 09:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph, 

If you go to the calendar and consider Sunday, June 1 of the current year (22) as a date for this comic, would that work? This is after ASM 504 (which would be Loki's last appearance; he's fine) and between X 141 and 142, as you suggest. Thor would be in the classic duds at this point. I assume the fairground reference and the presence of kids there in the daytime might be an indication of a weekend day. And June 1 doesn't have any of the featured characters anywhere else. 

Too bad about that "girlfriend" reference -- ugh. But it's in the narrative, not the dialogue, right?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Sep 2004 10:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Heh. I actually went to my local Target tonight. (Dragged my girlfriend too, hee! "Honey, look, comics!") I found the "17 exclusive Marvel titles" the blurb was talking about ... all reprints. It turns out that I'd actually heard about these before -- magazine-sized books that took Marvel Age material, usually 6-issue story arcs, and condensed them down to 96 pages. I saw Emma Frost, Runaways, and lots and lots of Spider-Man, both Ultimate and Marvel Age. There was also a mag that collected all four Gus Beezer one-shots. 

Anyway, I couldn't find the "Reading to the Rescue" comic anywhere ... which made sense, since from the look of it it was a giveaway book (there was no price, and the cover read "Not for Resale"). I'm assuming this was handed out at elementary schools or something ... not actually available *at* Target. 

The publication date, by the way, is just given as "2004". Doesn't really narrow it down, does it? There's a coupon in the back that expires on 10/31/04, though, so I'd guess that this is a *fairly* recent book... 

By the way -- clarifications to my above post: the Loki storyline was in ASM #503-504, not #502-503 ... and Loki's comment about New York was that it was "a land I have seldom visited". I still think, if possible, this should occur after ASM #504. (And yes, after a second reading, I still think it's canon.) 

Anyone want me to post an Issue Analysis of it? Or do we at the MCP not care about Target giveaways? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Sep 2004 10:20 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul... 

Actually, the kids are at the fairground on a school field trip. So it's probably a weekday in the school year. Although, they're grade-school kids ... school doesn't get out for them until mid-June, right? 

Nice weather. And a school trip to a *fairground*? Yeah, June works. 

And yes, the "girlfriend" reference is in the narration -- not the dialogue. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2004 06:59 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm making it Thursday, June 5, mostly not to conflict with other appearances by characters in this comic. Thanks for the heads-up, Jeph.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Sep 2004 09:03 am  
By Jason Doty

Hey Jeph! 
I pick up all the giveaways and this must be new. If your interested in selling, tell me! 
This is a list of X-Men giveaways I have off the top of my head. 
X-Men at the Texas State Fair 
X-Men Pizza Hut no.1-4 
Real Heroes no.1-4 (Professor X, Jubilee) 
X-Men Mini Comics from Pizza Hut no.1,2 
X-Men Mini Comics no.1-4 (Hardees) 
Marvel Charleston Chew no.1 (Wolverine, Jubilee) 
Mini Comics from Snack Cakes no.1-4, no.1-5 
7 11 Mini comic (Magneto) 
X-Men Mutant Mystery (Tony's Pizza) 
X-Men (Stridex) 
Spider-Man and New Mutants Skids no.1 
X-Men about Burn victem issue 
KFC mini comic 
I have many more but can not think of them off the top of my head!

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Posted: 14 Sep 2004 09:59 am    
By jephyork
Director

Sorry, Jason, I don't plan to sell this one. I'm actually looking for one in better shape ... this one looks like it sat out on a park bench for a while.  

(However, it also appears to be autographed on the back cover ... but I can't tell by whom. Ron Lim maybe? He drew the front cover, and it looks like "l-i-m", but it looks nothing like the way he signs his art. Odd.) 

If I ever find where they're being given out, I'll pick one up for you. Or if I find one in better shape, and I figure out who or what signed this copy, I'll keep you in mind... 

By the way, are YOU interested in selling any of the X-Men giveaways you mentioned? They're on my list to eventually track down and collect, as well ... if you had any doubles, I'd be happy to make a deal with you. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Sep 2004 10:03 am    
By Dhall

If you think it might be canon, then by all means I'd love to see an issue analysis. I think that we all agree that most of the giveaway books are non-canon, but that doesn't preclude any particular giveaway book from being canon, it just means that so-far Marvel's published giveaway books (and a lot of their non-giveaway books) have been non-canon. 

Dave H

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Posted: 14 Sep 2004 01:21 pm    
By Jason Doty

Hey Jeph! 
I have one double. It's the burn victom issue. E-Mail me at jasondoty@mchsi.com

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Posted: 17 Sep 2004 03:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, everyone, after some detective work I found out where this book came from. 

Created by Marvel in partnership with Target, it's mainly distributed by Target to schools (4th-grade range), and the extra copies are handed out at children's book fairs -- also sponsored by Target -- across the country. 

That's where my copy came from -- a book fair was held in Fanueil Hall this past weekend, and one copy of the comic got left behind on a bench where I found it Monday morning on my way to work. 

(Apparently the autograph on the back is that of "Spider-Man" -- some poor guy in a costume was signing copies at the fair.) 

Target will have a few more of these book fairs across the country -- they seem to generally be co-sponsored by the local big newspaper. (Mine was organized by the Boston Globe.) But they're not going back to press on this book, and there's a coupon in the back that expires on October 31st -- so I'd expect all these book fairs to be held within the next month. If you want a copy, keep your eyes open. 

Also, this was only the *first* Target giveaway book -- apparently they just began a partnership with Marvel that will see more of these books produced -- the next one coming in spring 2005. No word yet on whether Spider-Man will sign those too, though... 


So, that's what I got. This information cost me a small chunk of change in long-distance phone calls, too ... look grateful.  

-Jeph! 

PS - my Issue Analysis of this book is up in the other forum. Basically rephrases everything said here, plus plot details.

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Posted: 17 Sep 2004 03:53 pm    
By Ant-Man

Great...the only kid I know that age is my niece...I've seen the stuff that she pulls out of her backpack. 
If I get one, the thing will be mangled, and probably coverless! 

Thanks for the info, Jeph. I was surprised that a Google search didn't turn up any info on that book. Yes, we are grateful. 
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 27 Apr 2005 10:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Bump! 

Guess what, kids ... they made another. 

Last time around, I was able to obtain a few copies of the book from a contact at Target -- this time, I waited too long and they don't have any copies left. But "Reading to the Rescue #2" definitely exists. 

Here's a link to the only eBay auction I could find for it. 

And a big heads-up to Sean Kleefeld -- this issue features the FF! And since the last one fit snugly into canon, this one probably does too ... you might want to snap it up for the FF Plaza. 

Word from Target is that they'll be making a THIRD "reading to the Rescue" comic in July of this year. Now that I'm forewarned, I may be able to get some copies of this one ... stay tuned... 


And hey, speaking of Marvel giveaways ... does anyone have a line on the "New Avengers/Fantastic Four" military giveaway comic that came out last week? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Apr 2005 07:49 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Last time around, I was able to obtain a few copies of the book from a contact at Target -- this time, I waited too long and they don't have any copies left. But "Reading to the Rescue #2" definitely exists. 
<<<

Gah! How come no one tells me this stuff in advance! 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And a big heads-up to Sean Kleefeld -- this issue features the FF! And since the last one fit snugly into canon, this one probably does too ... you might want to snap it up for the FF Plaza. 
<<<

My bid's in place. But I don't want see any you mugs bidding against me, hear? 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And hey, speaking of Marvel giveaways ... does anyone have a line on the "New Avengers/Fantastic Four" military giveaway comic that came out last week? 
<<<

As of this posting, I've found one on eBay that's already up to $31... 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6527205114

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Posted: 28 Apr 2005 08:06 am    
By Ant-Man

I've got a brother-in-law in the marines. I sent an e-mail to him yesterday to see if he can get any copies of the New Avengers issue. 
As soon as I hear from him, I'll post it here.

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Posted: 28 Apr 2005 04:40 pm    
By jephyork
Director

This guy is selling 20 of them in a Dutch auction, and they're up to $20 each ... yikes. Can anyone say "hot book"? 

Fingers crossed, but I *may* have just closed a deal to trade for a copy of this with someone... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Apr 2005 10:29 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Re: Reading to the Rescue #2... 

Quote: 
>>>
My bid's in place. But I don't want see any you mugs bidding against me, hear? 
<<<

I already asked the seller -- no X-Men appear in it. So your bid's safe from me, at least...  

-Jeph!

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Thread 24

Posted: 31 Mar 2005 05:12 pm    Post subject: Nick Fury & the Secret War
By SKleefeld
Director

We're finally getting some perspective on this whole Secret War thing. Okay, the basic gist is that "one year ago" (whenever that is) Nick Fury led Captain America, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Daredevil, Luke Cage and Black Widow into Latveria to overthrow the government, run then by Lucia Von Bardas. It was evidently a successful coup; however the attacks against Fury, et. al. seen in SECWAR are Lucia's retaliation. Now, Interesting Note One is that we learn this week in The Pulse that Fury wasn't actually sanctioned to do this, and it seems as if others within SHIELD -- not to mention Hydra -- are eager to see him fall. Interesting Note Two is that we learned last week in New Avengers that Fury is not currently heading up SHIELD. 

Since we've seen Fury heading up SHIELD at least through "Avengers Disassembled" it would seem that SECWAR occurs sometime between A3 503 and A4 1. This would also help explain Cap's choices for his New Avengers, as I really don't see him extending an offer to Luke Cage just because he happened to be with Matt Murdock during the break-out seen in A4 1. (Of course, Cage's current MIA status in SECWAR and PULSE doesn't strengthen that arguement much.) I'll further point out that when "the cavalry" is called in SECWAR 4, Fury contacts SHIELD and the FF, while Cap tries to get a hold of Iron Man. No mention of the Avengers, who would seem to be a natural contact for the type of fight they're facing. Offhand, I'm not aware of any other Fury appearances that fall within that A3 503-A4 1 range to narrow things down any further although Cage's injuries would suggest pushing SECWAR earlier in that gap rather than later. 

As a curious aside, the FF appear in SECWAR 4 in uniforms that they've never actually worn before. The bear some similarities to the Heroes Reborn outfits, but seem to more closely stylized after the upcoming movie.

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 11:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

More thoughts about placement of SECWAR... 

The Scorpion (Mac Gargan) is one of the villains enlisted by Lucia to retaliate against Fury and company in SECWAR. We now know from this week's MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #12 that Gargan's days as Scorpion end with that issue and his armor/costume is put up for bid. (We also know that a new Scorpion will be debuting soon.) Thus, the "current" portions of SECWAR must occur before M/KS-M 8, which marks the beginning of that last Mac Gargan-as-Scorpion storyline. 

Because of the appearances of the Avengers (including Hawkeye) in M/KS-M 2, we've placed the M/KS-M 1-6 story arc before Disassembled. For the reasons Sean outlined, SECWAR should occur after Disassembled. Thus, Spidey should appear in SECWAR sometime between M/KS-M 6 and 8. There is a continuity break between M/KS-M 6 and 7 and there is a break within issue #7. I think it's likely that SECWAR occurs during one of those breaks. (And "three months" are supposed to separate M/KS-M 1 and 12.) Luckily, Aunt May doesn't show up in SECWAR or the tie-in issues of PULSE (at least not yet); she should be...um...in a location that was disclosed in this week's M/KS-M. 

The FF's costumes in SECWAR 4 may be an indication that SECWAR occurs after this week's FF 524. Issues 517-524 of FF form a fairly tight story arc which starts on "Hallowen." And I find it likely that the FF's vagueness about the status of the Avengers in FF 517 would predate their fighting alongside Cap in SECWAR 4. 

And while SECWAR should indeed occur after A 503, it doesn't necessarily have to occur before the formal disbanding of the Avengers in A:FINALE. In fact, since the Avengers appear in M/KS-M 11 (with a recovered Wasp -- post-Disassembled, pre-Finale -- as per previous post), I'd say SECWAR occurs during that period of uncertainty between A 503 and A:FINALE. 

So right now, I'm going for a November placement for SECWAR -- after M/KS-M 6, A 503, and FF 524 and before M/KS-M 7 and A:FINALE. If that holds up, then I'd need to place the "one year ago" flashbacks in SECWAR during the November of the previous year. However, doing so would place Fury's attempt to overthrow the Latverian government before Reed Richards' takeover of Latveria in FF 503. But isn't Lucia Von Bardas the head of the new democratic regime that took over after the FF left Latveria (a regime announced in FF 508)?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 12:11 am    
By jephyork
Director

Ya might have to take that "one year" reference with a grain of salt, Paul. Remember who the author is... 

I guess this forces Spec Spidey v2 #16-20 to occur after "Disassembled", then, huh? Since Aunt May's there (or, she's "back") and he has mechanical web-shooters in the M/KS-M arc and gets his organic web shooters in the SSM2 arc. So Brevoort's statement stands unchallenged, and that ain't the Vision on p.1 of #20. Sigh. 

By the way, with M/KS-M #13, the logo changes to actually incorporate the words "Marvel Knights" into the logo itself. Y'all win -- I guess I've gotta move the damned books around in my boxes and database now. Rrr. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 08:13 am  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Ya might have to take that "one year" reference with a grain of salt, Paul. Remember who the author is...  
<<<

Sure looks that way. At least the topicality of the time reference will be consistent with at "one year" anniversary reference in DD2. Now I just have to figure out a shorter time reference that would have some significance for the plot. 


Quote: 
>>>
I guess this forces Spec Spidey v2 #16-20 to occur after "Disassembled", then, huh? Since Aunt May's there (or, she's "back") and he has mechanical web-shooters in the M/KS-M arc and gets his organic web shooters in the SSM2 arc. So Brevoort's statement stands unchallenged, and that ain't the Vision on p.1 of #20. Sigh. 
<<<


Yup.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 09:24 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

A couple more notes about placement of SECWAR... 

1) I believe it was Kevin who noted that PULSE 7, a SECRET WAR tie-in, featured a Bugle headline about the Hulk's destruction in Arizona and that this was likely a reference to HULK/THING: HARD KNOCKS. And that would mean that H/T:HK 1-4 occur between FF 524 and the current scenes in SECWAR. 

2) Constrictor appears among the horde of villains in SECWAR. He would have to appear here long enough after SHE-HULK v3 #9 for him to heal from the injuries he suffered at the hands of Hercules. His last appearance was in a full-body cast at a tropical locale in a (gasp) photo at the end of S-H3 9. Why couldn't Constrictor appear in SHE-HULK after SECWAR? S-H3 9 features Jen's return from space after "three months" there and she notes that she has to check in with the Avengers. That places S-H3 9 before Disassembled, which is before SECWAR.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 09:33 pm    
By lkseitz

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
2) Constrictor appears among the horde of villains in SECWAR. He would have to appear here long enough after SHE-HULK v3 #9 for him to heal from the injuries he suffered at the hands of Hercules. His last appearance was in a full-body cast at a tropical locale in a (gasp) photo at the end of S-H3 9. 
<<<

Maybe a greedy doctor or criminal genius heard of his windfall and offered him some type of quick healing for a "nominal sum"? You know those supervillains. They're always doing stuff behind the scenes. Breaking out of prison, coming back to life, healing from extreme injuries . . . .
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 09:40 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Not a far-fetched idea. I could buy that. Hey, maybe a mutant healer needed money. Anyone see Elixir with major bling lately?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:23 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean K. wrote: 
>>>
Interesting Note Two is that we learned last week in New Avengers that Fury is not currently heading up SHIELD.  
<<<

It certainly seems like SECRET WAR will lead to Nick Fury's ouster as head of SHIELD. If that's the case, we'll need to pay attention to the order of Fury's other recent appearances as SHIELD director: 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #12 
Probably not a problem to place this before SECRET WAR, as I've done on the X-chronology. 

CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON #2-4 
Possible problem here. In CA&F 1, we see an old Daily Bugle headline announcing the disbanding of the Avengers, so this story must occur after A:FINALE. Yet I just placed SECRET WAR before A:FINALE. 

MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #6 
Problem here. We've placed this after the first story arc in NEW AVENGERS. Yet it's in that same story arc that we have the reference to Fury not being director of SHIELD. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES #3 
Problem here, too. The breakout at the Raft in NEW AVENGERS is referenced in FF:F 2. 

We'll need to keep an eye(patch) on Nick...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:31 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Come to think of it, regarding Constrictor... 

My analysis already has him healed by SECRET WAR, as I've placed his appearances in CABLE & DEADPOOL #7-12 between SHE-HULK v3 #9 and SECRET WAR. I have him going from being a member of Six Pack to one of Lucia's hi-tech horde in fairly short order.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:32 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON #2-4 
Possible problem here. In CA&F 1, we see an old Daily Bugle headline announcing the disbanding of the Avengers, so this story must occur after A:FINALE. Yet I just placed SECRET WAR before A:FINALE. 
<<<

Ummm... Have you read CAF 5-7? Specifically, the end of #7 LEADS DIRECTLY INTO A500. 

If that's true, it's either an in-joke or a REALLY old Bugle from Inferno-time or Onslaught-time. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>> 
Come to think of it, regarding Constrictor... 

My analysis already has him healed by SECRET WAR, as I've placed his appearances in CABLE & DEADPOOL #7-12 between SHE-HULK v3 #9 and SECRET WAR. I have him going from being a member of Six Pack to one of Lucia's hi-tech horde in fairly short order. 
<<<

Do that, and you have to explain why Cable isn't involved in Disassembled. You really DON'T want any significant stories going on elsewhere simultaneously with C/D #6 (last few pages) - #10

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 11:44 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Ummm... Have you read CAF 5-7? Specifically, the end of #7 LEADS DIRECTLY INTO A500 
<<<

Duh, Paul...I meant to write CAPTAIN AMERICA v5, not CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON.  


Quote: 
>>>
Do that, and you have to explain why Cable isn't involved in Disassembled. You really DON'T want any significant stories going on elsewhere simultaneously with C/D #6 (last few pages) - #10 
<<<

I have Disassembled occurring a long break between pages 16 and 17 of C&DP 6. The story arc to which you refer occurs after Disassembled. I don't know how you got the impression that, by putting C&DP 7-12 before SECRET WAR, Disassembled automatically got placed during C&DP 7-12. 

Here's the order as I have it now: 
C&DP 1-6 (through page 16) 
Constrictor in S-H3 9 
Disassembled (A 500-503) 
C&DP 6 (pages 17-21) 
Constrictor in C&DP 7-12 
Constrictor in SECRET WAR 

The other thing I need to factor in is Constrictor's appearance, well and in civilian garb, in WX2 26.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 12:14 pm    
By Somebody

Quote: 
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Duh, Paul...I meant to write CAPTAIN AMERICA v5, not CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON.  


Quote: 
>>>
Brubaker Inteview: 
Q: How carefully are you co-ordinating between New Avengers, Captain America, Captain America & Falcon, and other Captain America-related comics/appearances (like the New Invaders, where he doesn't appear except as a looming shadow and legacy)? 

A: Probably not carefully enough, but they're all edited by Tom, so I assume he keeps track of what's going on in each one. I talk with Tom a lot about what my plans are, so he knows what's coming in our book. And I'm good friends with Brian, so I know what's coming up in New Avengers, but we both try to basically stay out of each other's way. It's no fun having to worry about someone else's story when you write yours. I just figure, whatever Cap does in Avengers is happening during the days we don't see in my book. Most of New Avengers takes place after the stuff I'm doing for the first arc on Cap, anyway. My story begins after the Avengers have been broken up for about four or five months. 
<<<
<<<
 

So he's thinking of it as being between Finale & NA1 anyway, insomuchas he's thinking about it. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote:
>>>
Do that, and you have to explain why Cable isn't involved in Disassembled. You really DON'T want any significant stories going on elsewhere simultaneously with C/D #6 (last few pages) - #10 
<<<

I have Disassembled occurring a long break between pages 16 and 17 of C&DP 6. The story arc to which you refer occurs after Disassembled. I don't know how you got the impression that, by putting C&DP 7-12 before SECRET WAR, Disassembled automatically got placed during C&DP 7-12. 
<<<

I wasn't - I included everything from him turning the Facade virus off onwards in "last few pages". Cable is doing "the Messiah thing" DURING that gap, so I would studiously avoid placing any stories of significance during it, as well as during 7-10.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 12:23 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Sean K. wrote: 
>>>
Interesting Note Two is that we learned last week in New Avengers that Fury is not currently heading up SHIELD.  
<<<

It certainly seems like SECRET WAR will lead to Nick Fury's ouster as head of SHIELD. If that's the case, we'll need to pay attention to the order of Fury's other recent appearances as SHIELD director: 
<<<

I had a thought here... what if Nick is only placed on suspended leave or something? He could be unavailable during A4 4, but placed back in charge a day or three later? That SHIELD agent in A4 4 only says she's "acting" director, after all. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #6 
Problem here. We've placed this after the first story arc in NEW AVENGERS. Yet it's in that same story arc that we have the reference to Fury not being director of SHIELD. 
<<<

Well, we know Fury will be back sooner or later, as he always is. We might just have to push this a bit further back. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES #3 
Problem here, too. The breakout at the Raft in NEW AVENGERS is referenced in FF:F 2. 
<<<

Hurm... forgot about Nick's appearance there. And I just re-read his dialogue and he's still irked about Reed taking over Latveria, which makes things a little awkward. Interestingly, though, we have another SHIELD agent here acting unscurpulously. Could be coincidence, but it could be ultimately leading up to another Nick Fury vs SHIELD type of series. 

Here's another thought to throw out there: A4 is written by Bendis and we all know how liberal he is with temporal references. Maybe we could simply put some more time between the Raft's breakout and what he's referring to as the "next day" in A4. It might be stretching things a bit, but maybe we could place FFFOES and MTU3 between the breakout and when Nick actually loses his commission.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 02:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I wasn't - I included everything from him turning the Facade virus off onwards in "last few pages". Cable is doing "the Messiah thing" DURING that gap, so I would studiously avoid placing any stories of significance during it, as well as during 7-10. 
<<<

There's a period of "several weeks" between pages 16 and 17 of C&DP 6. Before this break, Nathan turned the Facade virus off and was hailed as a savior. After this break, Wade visits Nathan in Manhattan and tells him, "I know you won't be able to stop with people thinking you're the cat's meow or turning this place into some floating sanctuary or turning yourself into some Jesus wannabe. You just won't be able to stop." To me, this is a clue that Nathan really hasn't yet committed to doing global good works of the kind we see in C&DP 7-10. During that long break, in which I've placed Disassembled and a bunch of other stuff, Nathan was keeping a low profile. At least that's the way I see it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 02:41 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
I wasn't - I included everything from him turning the Facade virus off onwards in "last few pages". Cable is doing "the Messiah thing" DURING that gap, so I would studiously avoid placing any stories of significance during it, as well as during 7-10. 
<<<

There's a period of "several weeks" between pages 16 and 17 of C&DP 6. Before this break, Nathan turned the Facade virus off and was hailed as a savior. After this break, Wade visits Nathan in Manhattan and tells him, "I know you won't be able to stop with people thinking you're the cat's meow or turning this place into some floating sanctuary or turning yourself into some Jesus wannabe. You just won't be able to stop." To me, this is a clue that Nathan really hasn't yet committed to doing global good works of the kind we see in C&DP 7-10. During that long break, in which I've placed Disassembled and a bunch of other stuff, Nathan was keeping a low profile. At least that's the way I see it. 
<<<

Fury (C/D 7): "I'm saying, we're the world's top espionage agency, eyes in the sky, ears to the ground, and we've watched Cable play this game for weeks now--" (several other references to that effect too, including an itemisation in the interview) 

Plus, I read that line of Deadpool's very differently from you - Cable's STARTED at that point, and Deadpool's been hearing about it. It makes no sense for Cable to get the "Saviour" headlines. then drop out of site when he's got Providence set up already, he knows he's going to burn out in months and maybe even weeks, so he takes a break?!

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 06:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Plus, I read that line of Deadpool's very differently from you - Cable's STARTED at that point, and Deadpool's been hearing about it. It makes no sense for Cable to get the "Saviour" headlines. then drop out of site when he's got Providence set up already, he knows he's going to burn out in months and maybe even weeks, so he takes a break?! 
<<<

Well, maybe we can argue the opposite. Nathan's so busy tackling the world's problems at this point that he's got to miss some crises, such as Disassembled. Heck, he even missed the destruction of Manhattan by Xorneto! 

"Wait a second," you say..."how can that be?" Well, Xavier appears in C&DP 3, standing in his Morrison leathers. This indicates placement of the first story arc (up through page 16 of C&DP 6) before X 146. This is supported by a view of normal Manhattan in the first part of C&DP 6. After the "weeks" that pass between pages 16 and 17 of C&DP 6, we see the Astonishing team, including Beast, in their new costumes. That places the end of C&DP 6 after the start of the fall semester, and, indeed, after Disassembled, in which Henry McCoy is still in his Morrison leathers. So we have a few months of time in the gap that include Xorneto's destruction of Manhattan and Wanda's destruction of Avengers' Embassy, not to mention a whole bunch of other stuff that tends to happen in the MU during that length of time.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Apr 2005 11:14 pm   
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It certainly seems like SECRET WAR will lead to Nick Fury's ouster as head of SHIELD. If that's the case, we'll need to pay attention to the order of Fury's other recent appearances as SHIELD director: 
<<<

Well then, it appears I better let you know what's been going on in the latest story arc in Punisher. I thought it was somewhat strange writing on Garth Ennis's part at the time, but it now appears he's possibly been coordinating with the Brevoort titles. 

In Punisher, (MAX) #13, Nick Fury "hires" the Punisher to go do some rogue infiltration and retrieval work in Russia that's too sensitive for a regular U.S. Army special forces unit to perform. Fury does so on behalf of the U.S. military, (though SHIELD's a U.N. force). Frank asks Fury why Fury's taking order from high ranking Pentagon officials, and Fury replies, "I do this for those Brass-hat #$%^'s-I set up this one job-and things get fixed so I get SHIELD back for good." 

Also, Frank asks, "Why don't you do the job yourself?" To which Fury replies, "You kidding me? I'm not getting my head blown off on some #$%^ing suicide mission. I have to get SHIELD back and save the goddamn world." 

So this now ties into what's happening in Secret War and New Avengers...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 04:17 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yeah, I wondered about that line when I read it. Makes sense now - if SECRET WAR had been on schedule, it would have finished by now, so it's not Ennis' fault that he's referencing a story that hasn't been published yet.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 05:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thinking about Nick Fury and MTU3 #1-6... 

Back when #1-2 came out, I wrote to Robert Kirkman and he told me that -- although he'd originally written the arc (#1-2 specifically) to occur after the New Avengers were formed, editorial re-wrote some things so that the arc occured *before* they formed. Perhaps Nick Fury's appearance in #6 is WHY it was re-written. 

Granted, there are references that didn't get rewritten -- Spidey calls Cap a "fellow Avenger" and jokes about Wolverine being on "so many teams" -- but we do know, for a fact, that editorial intended MTU3 #1-6 to occur before A$ #1-6. 

So ... since placing it there works for Nick Fury's chronology ... why don't we place it there? 

We can write off the lines that don't quite work as "mistakes that slipped through editorial" -- just the same way we're writing off the Vision in SSM2 #20 as an art mistake that didn't get patched. 

(And, if you can't just "write them off" -- how about rationalizing them? As I recall, we did a pretty good job of coming up with alternate explanations for those lines back when the issues were coming out.) 

How does moving MTU3 #1-6 back before A4 #1 work for everyone? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 10:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
How does moving MTU3 #1-6 back before A4 #1 work for everyone?  
<<<

Well, that was okay with me before. We should place M/TU3 1-6 after A:FINALE, though, since in M/TU3 2, Paul Patterson says to Spidey and Logan, "So is this what we're left with after the Avengers disbanded? Thor must be rolling in his grave." 

That would mean A:FINALE, followed by M/TU3 1-6, followed by SECRET WAR. 

But we still need to deal with Nick being SHIELD director in FOES #3, which occurs after A4 1-6. And if that's solidly after A4 1-6, then why not put M/TU3 1-6 there as well? 

Man, I wish that #$@! Secret War was finished already! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Apr 2005 07:12 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
But we still need to deal with Nick being SHIELD director in FOES #3, which occurs after A4 1-6. 
<<<

What of the suggestion below, that it could occur between A4 #3-4? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2005 07:53 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. Fury trying to use SHIELD to ouster a potentially dangerous government is certainly questionable, but could be overlooked given the actions of certain U.S. officials... but the blatant and public breakout of 42 (tip of the hat to Douglas Adams?) major super-villains during the Avengers breakup would need to be sanctioned in some manner. Perhaps Nick was being reprimanded more for the Raft incident than the Latveria one?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2005 08:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good theory, but if that's the case, I'd expect it to be covered in the pages of NEW AVENGERS, since: a) the catalyst for Nick's ouster according to your theory IS a New Avengers story; and b) NEW AVENGERS introduces the acting director that took Nick's place. Shouldn't the whole plotline be self-contained within this title? If the Raft breakout resulted in Nick getting fired and replaced by an acting director, wouldn't that have been covered or at least mentioned within the pages of NEW AVENGERS? 

I have the sneaking suspicion that Nick's going to get the official bounce in SECWAR 5, whenever that comes out. And we may not have all the info we need to get the chronology right until SECRET WAR: FROM THE FILES OF NICK FURY comes out in late May. Just another one of those frustrating "wait and see" deals on which a bunch of placements may hinge. Agh.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Apr 2005 10:32 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, we see in the pages of New Avengers that the Raft breakout led to the firing of Jessica Drew from SHIELD. And then in New Avengers #4, we see that Nick Fury has been replaced. Having read that issue before the current Secret War #4, and Pulse #8, I assumed at the time his removal had to deal with the Raft incident, same as with Jessica. 

But it does look like we're probably going to have to wait and see a bit longer...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 06 Apr 2005 07:30 am    
By John Simons

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Well, we see in the pages of New Avengers that the Raft breakout led to the firing of Jessica Drew from SHIELD. 
<<<

What's your source for that? In New Avengers 4 Iron Man says, "Jessica Drew is an active agent of SHIELD level seven and now an active Avenger as well." Page 3, panel 3.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2005 11:43 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

New Avengers 3, page 22, panel 1: Jessica Jones tells the mystery person: "I got fired from my SHIELD post and asked to be a New Avenger all in one day." 

That's what I was thinking of when I made my last post. Going back just now and double checking New Avengers #3, I will note that her status with SHIELD seems to be more "put on leave" than "outright fired". Earlier in the issue Jessica says to Cap. America, "I thought I was going to get decommissioned, kicked out of SHIELD. Thought for sure. You the reason I wasn't?" And Cap says he needs her as a go between with SHIELD. And we see in New Avengers #4 Captain America using his "Full Champion License" to get the new SHIELD director to cooperate, (somewhat)...it seems Cap's kept her from being outright fired, but she's probably not a favorite back at SHIELD...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 Apr 2005 10:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I just finished reading NEW AVENGERS #5 and want to point out two clues in this issue that address some recent discussions in this thread: 

1) A suggestion was made to create a gap between A4 3 and A4 4 to make room for FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES. I wasn't a fan of this suggestion because of the obviously tight continuity in the first story arc in A4. Two bits of Logan dialog in NEW AVENGERS #5 reinforce this tight continuity: 

"Some guy calls the X-Mansion yesterday to tell whoever'll listen that a couple of Savage Land Mutates came to him and offered him some cash to crack Lykos out of jail." Note this is phone call occurs before the big breakout in A4 1 and it's referred to as "yesterday" in A4 5. 

"When the Raft got cracked into yesterday, it was exactly what that Hudak guy described." A4 1 happened "yesterday." No room for FOES. 

2) That Logan...so helpful. He also makes a reference that places A4 1-6 after SECWAR 1-6: 

"Well, guy [Scorcher] said he's tryin' to live the straighter and narrower since that stuff went down with Fury and out little Secret War." And, yup, Scorcher does appear in the "current" portion of SECWAR. This placement reinforces the suspicion we've had that Fury may be booted from SHIELD in SECWAR 6 because of the appearance of acting SHIELD director Maria Hill in A3 4. 

So now we still must deal with FOES having both Fury in charge of SHIELD AND a reference to the Raft breakout. Will Fury be reinstated...and quickly? And if so, might M/TU3 1-6 also be post-A4 6? Stay tuned...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Apr 2005 06:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

More clues about Nick Fury's chronology from this week's FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES #4: 

1) In FF:F 4, we have another reference to the breakout at the Vault, this time from a line of dialog by Nick Fury. So FF:F 1-6 occur after A4 1-6. 

2) In FF:F 4, we see the "displaced evil Tony Stark from another dimension" (Nick's words) in a stasis pod aboard the SHIELD helicarrier. This places FF:F 1-6 after M/TU3 1-6, since the evil Tony was taken into SHIELD custody in M/TU3 6. BTW, "Captain America's psycho malfunctioning robot girlfriend" (Nick's reference to the Diamondack LMD) is also in stasis here; the last time she was seen was in CA4 32. 

It also occurs to me that either a new SHIELD helicarrier was built after one was destroyed in W3 27 (which we've determined occurs before A4 1 -- Enemy of the State before New Avengers), or there are more than one helicarrier.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Apr 2005 07:53 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
"Some guy calls the X-Mansion yesterday to tell whoever'll listen that a couple of Savage Land Mutates came to him and offered him some cash to crack Lykos out of jail." Note this is phone call occurs before the big breakout in A4 1 and it's referred to as "yesterday" in A4 5. 
<<<

Captain America also notes here that 44 villains escaped out of The Raft, as opposed to the 42 listed in previous issues. This makes me more inclined to take Bendis' details with several large grains of salt. C'mon, Stan Lee was more consistent about those kinds of details than this guy!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Apr 2005 04:35 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Here's how I stand on "Foes": 

1) If Nick Fury is *immediately* fired as head of SHIELD at the end of "Secret War" #5, then "Foes" occurs sometime after his eventual reinstatement. 

2) If Nick is only "suspended" or threatened with firing pending an investigation at the end of "Secret War" #5, then I'm inclined to ignore any and all Bendis-temporal-references necessary to place "Foes" between "New Avengers" #3-4. 

To me, "Bendis-temporal-references" hold infinitely less weight than any other form of temporal reference, and should only stand if they don't conflict with the references of a writer who knows what he's doing. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Apr 2005 10:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
To me, "Bendis-temporal-references" hold infinitely less weight than any other form of temporal reference, and should only stand if they don't conflict with the references of a writer who knows what he's doing. 
<<<


Okay, far be it from me to defend Bendis (perish the thought  )... but while I find it easy to dismiss his long-term temporal references ("exactly one year ago," etc., etc.), I'd expect a tightly written story that occurs over the course of just two days to hold some water from a temporal standpoint. 

Between SECRET WAR, NEW AVENGERS, FOES, WOLVERINE, and MARVEL TEAM-UP, we sure have a number of chronological issues still up in the air. Maybe we'll get a handle on all this by the time HOUSE OF M comes along. I plan to post an update of the calendar next month, but it will only go through December of Year 22, which is fine because I believe all the story arcs in this thread will be placed in the first four or five months of Year 23.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Apr 2005 10:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'd expect a tightly written story that occurs over the course of just two days to hold some water from a temporal standpoint. 
<<<

You'd expect that, yes, but ... sometimes stories just don't hold up. Bendis has already managed to forget how many criminals escaped... 

When I was making my own private map of the X-Men's "Shattering / Twelve" period, I discovered that although GAM3 #8-9 and ASTONX2 #1-3 both occured between X #92 and UX #375, every book except Gambit had all the events of those issues occuring on the same day -- except Gambit's, which happily took three days to dovetail from X #92 back into UX #375. What can you do? You shrug, you knock the pieces into a shape that more or less fits if you don't look too closely, and you move on. 

If it turns out that the only place that "Foes" could possibly fit is between A4 #3-4, then I'm all in favor of tossing the "yesterday" references even if they were written by Mark Gruenwald himself. 

Gonna have to wait until Secret War #5 hits to really make sense of things, though... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Apr 2005 07:47 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
If it turns out that the only place that "Foes" could possibly fit is between A4 #3-4, then I'm all in favor of tossing the "yesterday" references even if they were written by Mark Gruenwald himself. 

Except Gru wouldn't have made those errors in the first place. In fact, what he likely would've done is written an entirely new story to explain exactly why the Avengers keep referring to the Raft breakout as occurring "yesterday" even though it was really last week.  

jephyork wrote: 

Gonna have to wait until Secret War #5 hits to really make sense of things, though... 
 

Honestly, I doubt SECWAR 5 will actually resolve much of this. I think that this will play out much like Bendis' chronally challenged run on Daredevil where we'll be getting weird bits and pieces throughout his entire run on New Avengers, Pulse, House of M and anything else Quesada hands him. 

I do enjoy Bendis' stories as a reader, but they're an absolutely nightmare as a chronologist.

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Thread 25

Posted: 29 Apr 2005 10:49 am    Post subject: Guardian/James Hudson
By Somebody

Shouldn't he have a BTS for GSXM1, since Wolverine says in UXM109 that "I resigned Jimmie-boy - you were there when I slashed Chasin's tie," even though he's not shown on-panel in that issue?

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Posted: 30 Apr 2005 09:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, you're right, Somebody. Not even the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, in either of its two editions, picked that up. Good call.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 26

Posted: 06 Apr 2005 05:26 pm    Post subject: Sabretooth v2 #1-4
By jephyork
Director

Sabretooth vol. 2 #1-4  "Open Season" parts I-IV 

Quick summary: the series takes place over 24 hours or so, on Isle Dupree in Lake Superior. According to a caption in #1, it's "January 20th", so #4 ends on Jan. 21. (It's fairly arbitrary, but I believe midnight falls between pp.15-16 of #3.) 

The series is remarkably straightforward to analyze, compared to the stuff I've been doing lately. There's some cloak-and-dagger about which shadowy hairy figure we're seeing at any given time, but it's not difficult to untangle. What a relief this was, compared to things like overhauling "Weapon X". 

Enjoy! 

-Jeph! 

---- 

Sabretooth v2 #1 
"A Cold Day in Hell" 

Appearances: 
Sabretooth 
Sasquatch 
Wendigo VIII  BTS 
Captain Mitchell, USCG Polar Sun 
Hamilton, Coast Guard 
Powell and Johnson, Coast Guard 
Mr. Laronne (corpse) ? 
two unnamed boys 

Synopsis: 
The Coast Guard ice cutter "Polar Sun" receives a distress call from the isolated Isle Dupree  a woman claims a monster is loose on the island, and is then killed while on the radio. The cutter heads for the island, where we see Sabretooth standing over the woman's body. He writes "Leave or Die" on the outside of the house, and stalks off. When the Coast Guard arrive, they find massacred men everywhere, and follow some chimney smoke to a cabin where two boys are locked in the basement. Hamilton, the landing party leader, descends to help the boys  and the rest of the men are attacked and killed by Sabretooth. Meanwhile, back at the dock, a doctor arrives to offer assistance  Alpha Flight's Sasquatch. 

Temporal references: 
As noted above, a narrative caption claims that it's "January 20th". The captain also comments that it's "winter". At sunrise, the radio operator claims that the Ice Queen (another cutter) won't arrive for "thirty hours"  they show up at the end of #4, but temporal references in #3 contradict the 30 hours estimate. More on this later. 

Notes: 
In #4, the boys mention that "Mr. Laronne" was killed  so he may, or may not, be visible among the strewn corpses we see here. I've given him an appearance listing just to be on the safe side  but I highly doubt the MCP will bother listing a corpse that doesn't even have a first name, and was only in one issue (and not even definitively, at that). 

---- 

Sabretooth v2 #2 
"Cold Comfort" 

Appearances: 
Sabretooth 
Sasquatch 
Wendigo VIII 
Hamilton 
Captain Mitchell 
Smith ("Smitty"), Anderson, Taylor and Rogers, Coast Guard 
two unnamed boys 

Synopsis: 
Sasquatch orders the Coast Guard men to stay aboard their ship, and begins searching the island. He is attacked by Sabretooth and, as they battle, Sasquatch falls into a punji pit set up by Sabretooth. Meanwhile, the Coast Guard get fed up waiting, and another landing party goes to retrieve the first. This landing party is quickly dispatched by a looming, shadowy creature  and later, back at the cabin, a shadowy creature approaches the front door 

---- 

Sabretooth v2 #3 
"Kill or Be Killed" 

Appearances: 
Sabretooth 
Sasquatch 
Wendigo VIII 
Hamilton 
Captain Mitchell 
Smith ("Smitty") 
Anderson, Taylor, and Rogers (corpses)  BTS 
two unnamed boys 

Synopsis: 
Hamilton machine-guns the creature at the front door, who is revealed to be a badly-injured Sasquatch. Meanwhile, Smitty, the only survivor of the second landing party, makes his way back to the ship as Sabretooth watches and grins. Back at the ship, the remaining Coast Guard men are attacked and massacred, and Smitty hears the battle from the dock. As Sabretooth surveys the carnage and leaves the ship, he finds Smitty's corpse in the snow  he's shot himself. Later, in the cabin, as Hamilton struggles to stitch Sasquatch's wounds together, Sasquatch explains that Alpha Flight isn't with him  he's alone, and has been tracking Sabretooth for several weeks, trying to stop him from the hunt he's on. Hamilton believes that Sabretooth is hunting the men of Isle Dupree  but Sasquatch reveals that Sabretooth is only after one creature: the Wendigo! 

Temporal references: 
The USCG "Ice Queen", which was reported to be "30 hours away" at sunrise in #1, radios in to say that there'll be there "by morning". 30 hours from sunrise isn't "morning"  it's 24 + 6 hours, around noon the next day  so I'm assuming that the Ice Queen is simply making better time than they expected. (They're cutting through the ice at "17 knots"  is that fast through ice?) 

Also, Sasquatch has been tracking Sabretooth and his Wendigo-hunt for "several weeks"  so Sabretooth shouldn't appear anywhere else for a few weeks prior to this series. (I suppose the same can be said of Sasquatch, although if necessary he could be *passively* monitoring Sabretooth's whereabouts in those weeks, while making appearances elsewhere.) I don't think we've seen any Wendigos since W2 #172, so there shouldn't be any placement problem as far as he's concerned. 

Notes: 

We only see one Coast Guard corpse from the landing party in #2  the unnamed, bearded man  but Smitty radios in to say that they've all been killed, and when he's asked to confirm their deaths, he reports (staring wide-eyed off-panel) that "the others" are "in pieces". Therefore I've given Anderson, Taylor and Rogers' corpses BTS appearances  but they probably won't merit MCP entries anyway, so it's fairly irrelevant. 

---- 

Sabretooth v2 #4 
"Abominable" 

Appearances: 
Sabretooth 
Sasquatch 
Wendigo VIII 
Hamilton 
two unnamed boys 

Synopsis: 
The Wendigo attacks the cabin, and Sasquatch (whose "enhanced metabolism" has healed most of his wounds) attacks him, driving them both out into the storm. Sabretooth shows up at the cabin, and explains what's going on: he's been hunting and terrorizing the Wendigo for weeks, driving him far from his natural habitat. It's the Wendigo that's been attacking and killing the islanders and the Coast Guard, out of instinct and self-preservation. Sasquatch makes an impassioned plea to the Wendigo, asking him to trust him, to let him help get him home  but the Wendigo refuses to trust Sasquatch, and mauls him savagely. As the Wendigo sees a second ship approaching across the lake, Sabretooth finds and attacks him, and the two plunge off a cliff and through the ice. They sink through the freezing water, still fighting Later, back at the cabin, Sabretooth shows up. He tells Hamilton that it's all over, that if the second boat gets here in time they might be able to save Sasquatch  and walks off wearing a crude coat made of the Wendigo's skin. 

Temporal references: 
The Ice Queen is visible far across the lake in this issue  and at the end of the issue, Sabretooth says that it should reach the docks in "a couple of hours". Since the ship claimed it would arrive by "morning" (6-7 am), and it's moving at "seventeen knots", the fact that it's in visible range probably means that it's past midnight. (The "couple of hours" comment suggests that the issue ends around 5 am.) Therefore, since the scene in #4 where we first see the Ice Queen follows directly from the final scene of #3, I put midnight before the final scene of #3  between pp.15-16  between the massacre at the Polar Sun and Sasquatch's recovery in the cabin. 

An enormous full moon is seen on p.22  but isn't there always?  

---- 

General Notes: 

It's unclear who kills the woman on the radio in #1. You're initially meant to think that Sabretooth is killing everyone, but later on the Wendigo is revealed to be the monster, and Sabretooth claims he's "only there for one killing"  the Wendigo himself. However, Sabretooth did kill most of the Coast Guard troops who tried to rescue the two boys he was using as bait, and he did write the message "leave or die" on the side of the house where the woman was killed  so even though he's not there to kill the islanders, he clearly has no compunction about killing anyone who gets in the way of his hunt. And when the Coast Guard arrive, they note that only the men have been killed in the Wendigo's massacre. The one woman seems to be an exception. 

So, would Sabretooth have killed the woman who was on the radio calling for help? He probably *would*, just to keep the Coast Guard from interfering with his hunt. But *did* he? 

On the radio, the woman's line ("Oh God it's outside!") could be read that she recognizes the returning Wendigo  or it could be hysterics upon glimpsing a shadowy Sabretooth. And Sabretooth's line, standing over her body, "damn, honey, didn't your daddy ever tell you not to talk to strangers?", is ambiguous  it could be his reaction to finding a dead woman next to a radio, or it could be a pithy line he said just after killing her. The scene is written ambiguously so that we'll initially suspect Sabretooth  but in this woman's case, the Wendigo reveal doesn't necessarily fit, as Sabretooth might really *have* had the motivation to kill her. 

However, I tend to think it wasn't Sabretooth. As he stands over her body, you can see the boat approaching the dock  and, remember, this is a cutter, making its way to the dock through ice. It doesn't move fast. The only way it could be approaching the dock as Sabretooth delivers his pithy line is if the boat was less than a mile away from the dock when the distress call came in  or if the woman was killed hours ago, and Sabretooth is discovering the body hours later, just as the boat arrives. 

Given that the captain's response to the distress call is "we'll be there by sunrise", and not something like "we'll be there in 20 minutes"  I'd assume option B, that Sabretooth is discovering the woman's body some time later  and that she was killed by the Wendigo. Therefore, since we hear the woman being murdered on the radio, I've given the Wendigo a BTS appearance for this issue. 


Also, a quick note on Wendigo numbering: 

Currently, the MCP has Mauvais listed as "Wendigo VIII"  and I really don't think that's accurate. Mauvais didn't fall under the curse of the Wendigo  he stole the Wendigo's power by killing it and eating its heart. (A clue that he didn't "become a Wendigo" in the traditional sense is that he retained his ability to speak.) His power is basically a grosser version of Rogue's power-absorption abilities  he didn't actually *become* a Wendigo, he just gained the power of one. Therefore, I believe he should still be listed under "Mauvais", and the Wendigo that appears here should be listed as "Wendigo VIII". 

---- 

General chronological placement: 

Sabretooth is wearing the same Jim Lee-designed costume that he's been wearing since X #5-7, so that's not much help. 

Sabretooth's chronology currently dead-ends with X #164  he was apparently killed off-panel by Wolverine. This is hard to take seriously, since we all know he'll be back  but unless and until he does, my instinct is to place this series prior to his "death". Now, WX2 #26-28 lead directly into X #161-164  Sabretooth receives a summons from the Brotherhood  so if we place this series before X #161, it should be placed before WX2 #26 as well. 

It was published after "Identity Disc", where Sabretooth also appears  so my instinct would be to place the series between ID #5 and WX2 #26. However, Sasquatch mentions that he's been tracking Sabretooth for "several weeks"  and I'm not sure if there ARE several weeks between ID #5 and WX2 #26. 

Alternately, we could place it just *before* ID #1-5  which would put it, I believe, between W3 #19 and ID #1. There's likely room for "several weeks" in there. 

There's also the "January 20" date to consider  which, currently, doesn't seem to work. 

W3 #13-19 occur (despite the spring references in the series) in the summer after Xorneto's attack. ID #1-5 take place shortly after the start of the semester at Xavier's, in August  and X #161-164 occur after that point, in the fall semester. None of these work with the January date at all. 

Trying to place this series back in January of that year puts us back in the middle of the WX2 series, where Sabretooth is still a captive of the new Weapon X organization. And placing it on the following Jan. 20 puts it after his "death". 

Now, if Sabretooth ever returns  and *doesn't* give us evidence that he's consistently been somewhere else between X #164 and his return  then I wouldn't mind moving this series to the Jan. 20 following his "death". 

But if he doesn't ever return (fat chance) or, upon his return, claims that he's been a captive of aliens (or something) the whole time he was presumed dead  then I recommend ignoring the Jan. 20 date and placing the series on one side or another of the ID series. 

In fact, that IS where I recommend placing the series, until he returns. Between ID #5 and WX2 #26 if there's "several weeks" of room there  and between W3 #19 and ID #1 if there isn't. 

---- 

Now, where should we place this series in Sasquatch's continuity? The way Sasquatch refers to Alpha Flight in #2-3, it seems like they're an active, established team. We don't know if he's referring to the traditional AF lineup or the "all-new" group showcased in the AF3 series, but we can use the reference to make an educated guess about placement. 

In AF3 #1-6, the traditional Alpha Flight goes missing, and Sasquatch gathers a new team. At the end of the arc, the traditional team leaves for the Plodex homeworld, but the new team hasn't completely decided to work together. AF3 #7-8 pick up fairly directly from the end of #6, and the new members *still* haven't officially agreed to join. 

By the end of #8, they've decided to stay together  and #9-12 pick up the day after #8, and run with no gaps until the series wraps, bringing a past version of the traditional Alpha Flight to our time, and having them "take up the mantle" or something like that. 

This series can't fit in the less-than-24-hour gap between AF3 #8-9 (especially with the "several weeks" Sasquatch has been tracking Sabretooth), so  since Sasquatch is referring to Alpha Flight as a functioning team, this must either be before AF3 #1 or after AF3 #12. 

Looking at the publication order, this series was published the same months as AF3 #8-10  so I'd suggest placing it after AF3 #12. (Which still works for Sasquatch even if we end up moving it to the January 20 after X #164.) 

---- 

So, here's the usual MCP-style listings for everyone. I recommend the obvious abbreviation "SABRE2". 


Feature characters: 

*HAMILTON, USCG 
SABRE2 1 
SABRE2 2 
SABRE2 3 
SABRE2 4 

*MITCHELL, USCG CAPTAIN 
SABRE2 1 
SABRE2 2 
SABRE2 3 

SABRETOOTH / VICTOR CREED 
 
W3 19-FB 
* (possible alternate placement here) 
ID 1 
ID 2 
ID 3 
ID 4 
ID 5 
*SABRE2 1 
*SABRE2 2 
*SABRE2 3 
*SABRE2 4 
WX2 26 
WX2 27 
WX2 28 
X 161 
X 162 
X 163 
X 164 
(possible eventual alternate placement here) 

SASQUATCH / DR. WALTER LANGOWSKI 
 
AF3 12 
*SABRE2 1 
*SABRE2 2 
*SABRE2 3 
*SABRE2 4 

*WENDIGO VIII 
SABRE2 1-BTS 
SABRE2 2 
SABRE2 3 
SABRE2 4 


Supporting characters, who probably don't rate a listing: 

*ANDERSON, USCG 
SABRE2 2 
SABRE2 3-BTS 

*JOHNSON, USCG 
SABRE2 1 

*LARONNE 
SABRE2 1 (?) 

*POWELL, USCG 
SABRE2 1 

*ROGERS, USCG 
SABRE2 2 
SABRE2 3-BTS 

*SMITH, "SMITTY", USCG 
SABRE2 2 
SABRE2 3 

*TAYLOR, USCG 
SABRE2 2 
SABRE2 3-BTS 


And, changes to existing MCP entries: 

the current "WENDIGO VIII / MAUVAIS" should be listed under MAUVAIS.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2005 06:47 pm    
By Jim Smith

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
*HAMILTON, USCG 

*MITCHELL, USCG CAPTAIN 

*ANDERSON, USCG 

*JOHNSON, USCG 

*POWELL, USCG 

*ROGERS, USCG 

*SMITH, "SMITTY", USCG 

*TAYLOR, USCG 
<<< 


I'm not sure this is the best notation for these characters. Taken together as they are in this post, it doesn't take long to figure out what "USCG" means. But if each of these characters is put on the MCP, they'll be scattered throughout different pages, and I think people might be scratching their heads trying to figure out why there'd be a character named "Uscg Hamilton." 

I'd put the "USCG" in brackets--that's generally reserved for alien races and mythological pantheons, but it's clearer than separating it with a comma.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Apr 2005 09:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the review, Jeph. I've incorporated your notes into a revised X-chronology, which I hope to post later today. 

Question: how many pages are there in issue #3, and where in the plot does the midnight break come? Just before the stitching up? 

I'd like to make the references to winter and January 20 actual. There's every reason to believe that Creed survives Logan's carving from X 164. We've certainly had more unbelievable returns from the dead, and Creed is too good a character for Marvel to kill off for good.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Apr 2005 09:31 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Currently, the MCP has Mauvais listed as "Wendigo VIII"  and I really don't think that's accurate. Mauvais didn't fall under the curse of the Wendigo  he stole the Wendigo's power by killing it and eating its heart. (A clue that he didn't "become a Wendigo" in the traditional sense is that he retained his ability to speak.) His power is basically a grosser version of Rogue's power-absorption abilities  he didn't actually *become* a Wendigo, he just gained the power of one. Therefore, I believe he should still be listed under "Mauvais", and the Wendigo that appears here should be listed as "Wendigo VIII". 
<<<

For what it's worth, OHOTMU: WOLVERINE 2004 seems to go with the MCP's line on this story: 

"The two [Wolverine and Mauvais] fought until Mauvais attracted the monstrous Wendigo to the scene. Slaying the Wendigo and consuming its heart, Mauvais became the Wendigo himself and, retaining control of the beast's persona, savagely beat Wolverine. The timely arrival of the Canadian super-team Alpha Flight saved Wolverine, and together the heroes weakened Mauvais long enough for the Inuit Gods to exile their old enemy [ie, Mauvais] to the dimension of the ancient Great Beasts." 

Of course, this also means that the Wendigo in this story is presumably a different guy altogether. 

I can see the logic of the OHOTMU's approach here. Although Mauvais's power involves him eating flesh for power, it doesn't usually involve him taking on the specific powers of the person he eats. It just gives him a power reserve to draw on for his black magic. And since the Wendigo is still a human (albeit an ensorcelled one), by eating its heart, isn't Mauvais invoking the cannibalism curse? I don't think any previous stories have addressed it one way or the other, but Tieri's "if you eat the Wendigo you become a Wendigo" theory seems to be consistent with the established rules.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Apr 2005 10:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

Pual B.: There are 20 pages in #3, and yes, it looks to me like midnight probably occurs just before the stitching-up scene. 

Paul O.: That's a good point about Mauvais' power -- I had forgotten that he didn't actually take on the *powers* of the people he eats. (He didn't gain a healing factor when he ate Logan's eye, for example.) And yeah, the Wendigo is technically human ... so I suppose the cannibalism curse must have transferred to Mauvais when he killed and ate the current Wendigo. 

Admin, what do you think about putting a linked notation under "M"? Something like "MAUVAIS -- see WENDIGO VIII"? The character is much better-known as Mauvais than a Wendigo derivative. 

This would, by the way, make the Wendigo appearing in SABRE2 into Wendigo IX. I'll edit my original post when I have some more time on my hands. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Apr 2005 10:28 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
Admin, what do you think about putting a linked notation under "M"? Something like "MAUVAIS -- see WENDIGO VIII"? The character is much better-known as Mauvais than a Wendigo derivative. 


If he's much better known as Mauvais, I'd prefer the notation "WENDIGO VIII -- see MAUVAIS" 


watching: speed buggy

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Thread 27

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 06:46 pm    Post subject: CFA: Marvel Saga #1
By jephyork
Director

Can anyone help me out with a panel-by-panel breakdown of what's reprinted from where in Marvel Saga #1? 

It's fairly easy to spot which bits are drawn from FF #1-2 and TTA #27 -- but if anyone could clue me in on where the FF reprints on pp.7-8 and 14 come from, as well as the Hank Pym reprints on p. 25 (and p.26 panel 2?), I'd appreciate it. 


I've determined, by the way, that pp.4-5 constitute new material -- showing what various other Marvel heroes were doing on the day the FF made their fateful rocket trip. Pp.1-3 are new, but seem to be mostly recap and may be drawn from other sources. More analysis to come, as I look through the rest of the Marvel Saga issues I recently bought... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 07:19 pm    
By Ant-Man

Here's the info from the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators: 

Marvel Saga #1 

This issue reprints material from Fantastic Four vol.1 #1, 2, 271, 273; Tales to Astonish vol.1. #27, 44; Avengers vol.1 #227; Alpha Flight vol.1 #2, 3, 12; Thing #1, 10. 

Pages 1 to 5: An overview of events before Fantastic Four #1 (new art by R. Frenz and A. Milgrom). These are mentioned on: 

Galactus, Celestials, Elders of the Universe, Watchers, Kree, Skrull 
the creation of the Eternals and Deviants by the Celestials 
the creation of the Inhumans by the Kree 
the rise and downfall of Atlantis and Valusia 
the age of warriors and wizards (picture shows clearly Conan and Red Sonja, but their names are not mentioned, propably because of copyright) 
the rise of the Egypt, Greek and Norse gods including Hercules and Thor 
the medievial Black Knight and King Arthur 
the western heroes Kid Colt, Rawhide Kid, Night Rider and Two-Gun Kid 
World War I heroes, like Union Jack 
World War II heroes, like Sgt. Nick Fury and his Howling Commandos, Captain America, Prince Namor and the Human Torch 
There is of course no mentioning of the Lost Generation, as these heroes were created much later. 

Pages 4 and 5 show what the future heroes were doing shortly begore FF #1. 

Captain America frozen in ice 
The Sub-Mariner, having lost his memories, living in the streets of New York 
Col. Nick Fury on desk duty 
Tony Stark revelling in his life as playboy 
Dr. Robert Bruce Banner laboring on the Gamma Bomb 
Dr. Henry Pym ready to test his serum 
Dr. Don Blake booking a vacation in Norway 
Prof. Charles Xavier training Jean Grey 
Dr. Stephen Strange studying magic 
Matt Murdock and "Foggy" Nelson studying law 
Peter Parker is fascinated by Dr. Reed Richards plans for space travel 
Page 6: Reed Richards's youth (with his father, Nathaniel Richards); Ben Grimm's youth (losing his brother Daniel, his time with the Yancy Street Gang, leaving his uncle Jake and his aunt Alyce and as football star). 


Page 7: Ben Grimm's first meeting with Victor von Doom and Reed Richards on State University, his time in the Air Force and Reed's offer to fly the rocket. 

Page 8: Reed Richards and Susan Storm meet Gormuu. 

Page 9 to 13: The origin of the Fantastic Four (FF #1). 

Page 14: The Fantastic Four are taken home by U.S. soldiers. 

Page 20: The Fantastic Four's first encounter with the Mole Man (FF #1). 

Page 21 to 25.1: Dr. James MacDonald Hudson invents his suit (and steals it), helps to create Department H, meets Wolverine and inspired by the Fantastic Four deveolps his Guardian suit (AF #2 FB, 3 FB). 

Page 25.2-6: Dr. Henry Pym's first wife Maria is kidnapped by the K.G.B., he tries to find her, fails and suffers his first mental breakdown. 

Pages 26 to 28: Dr. Pym's invention of the shrinking and growing serum and his first adventure in a ant-hill (TTA #27). 

Pages 29 to 32: The first appearance of Skrulls and their impersonating the Fantastic Four (FF #2).
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 18 Oct 2004 09:09 pm    
By Enda80

One of those panels is from FF I#272 or so, from the story where Reed recalls his days with his father. It shows Albert Einstein. 

By the way, the last issue of Marvel Saga reveals that Uatu the Watcher was narrating all along, as I mentioned elsewhere.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 09:10 pm    
By Enda80

the rise of the Egypt, Greek and Norse gods including Hercules and Thor 

Hercules is shown fighting a lion. This could be the Nemean Lion, one of his Twelve Labors.

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 01:05 am    
By SeanCurtin

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, the last issue of Marvel Saga reveals that Uatu the Watcher was narrating all along, as I mentioned elsewhere. 
<<<

Given that the narration in Marvel Saga was prone to saying things like "Tyrannus will reappear in this year's Hulk Annual", that was probably only true of the last issue. Uatu doesn't exactly have a history of breaking the fourth wall. 

-Sean

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 05:42 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Doesn't he? He seems to do it all the time to me. Isn't he talking to the audience during most issues of What If? Or have they rationalised that as him speaking to the Recorder?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 07:20 pm    
By SeanCurtin

He's speaking to somebody, but there have been enough instances of his being shown as actually speaking to another character or dictating a recording that it can probably be assumed that he's not supposed to be talking to the reader; he's just a handy exposition tool. What I meant was, I don't recall him ever actually referring to comics themselves. 

-Sean

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 09:29 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Brian, thanks for the info from the Unofficial Handbook -- but what I was looking for was a *panel-specific* breakdown. 

On pp.7-8, 14, 25 and 26, which panels are drawn from which original issues? 

Can anyone help with this? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Oct 2004 05:23 am    
By Enda80

"Doesn't he? He seems to do it all the time to me. Isn't he talking to the audience during most issues of What If? Or have they rationalised that as him speaking to the Recorder? 


He's speaking to somebody, but there have been enough instances of his being shown as actually speaking to another character or dictating a recording that it can probably be assumed that he's not supposed to be talking to the reader; he's just a handy exposition tool. What I meant was, I don't recall him ever actually referring to comics themselves. " 

Check out Quasar#47. In that issue, the Watcher was saying "On your world I have often acted for your benefit. However, what if I decided to pursue a quest for power. What if the Watcher went Rogue?".....and then Quasar walks in on him and asks him who he was talking to. 
I take it that the Watcher does in fact record his narration.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Oct 2004 04:19 pm    
By michel

Pages 6-7 are from Thing #1 

p6pn2 : p14pn1 
p6pn3 : p15pn3 
p6pn4 : p16pn6 
p6pn5 : p17pn8 
p7pn1-2 : p18pn1-2 
p7pn3 : p18pn5 
p7pn4 : p19pn1 
p7pn5 : p19pn5 

Page 8 is from Fantastic Four #271 

p8pn1 : p7pn4 
p8pn2 : p7pn7 
p8pn3 : p8pn4 
p8pn4 : p13pn5 

Page 14 is from Thing #10 

p14pn1 : p13pn2 
p14pn2 : p14pn4 
p14pn3-4 : p16pn3-4 

Page 25 is from Tales To Astonish #44 

p25pn2 : p2pn8 
p25pn3 : p3pn5 
p25pn4 : p4pn1 
p25pn5 : p4pn5 
p25pn6 : p5pn1 

Page 26 panel 2 is from Avengers #227 page 12 panel 2 

Michel

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Posted: 22 Oct 2004 06:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks, Michel! Much appreciated! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Apr 2005 08:41 pm    
By Enda80

Well, the recent Hercules mini's first issue shows him in brief one panel to fb to each labor.......but it also shows him at the Stables, something that Thor#291 or so said Gilgamesh did.

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 10 Apr 2005 09:29 am    Post subject: FF@ 2/2
By Dhall

For some reason, in the listings FF @ 2/2 is listed as FF @ 2/3. 
If you search the MCP, it comes up correctly. 

This affects: 
Dr. Doom 
Human Torch II 
Invisible Woman 
Mr. Fantastic 
Pharaoh Rama-Tut 
Thing

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 12 Apr 2005 08:26 pm    Post subject: MARVEL DOUGLE SHOT
By Dhall

M/DS is listed in the key as MARVEL DOUGLE SHOT

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Thread 30

Posted: 27 Apr 2005 08:29 am    Post subject: Hulk typo
By Arthur
Director

in the Hulk's listing... 

H2 309 
*H3 310 should read H2 310 
*H3 311 should read H2 311 
H2 312

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 31 Mar 2005 11:27 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four trailer
By ADMINISTRATOR

A new trailer is out for the Fantastic Four: 

http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox/fantastic_four/internet_exclusive/large.html 


watching: fox 6 news

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Posted: 01 Apr 2005 08:38 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I saw that about a week ago and -- while I was really trying to maintain skeptical optimism about the movie before -- I'm actually pretty psyched about it now. Interestingly, it was the "Don't even think about/Never do" bit that sells it for me more than hearing "Flame on" or "It's clobberin' time".

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 04:57 am    Post subject: Aside
By rhod

After Russ freaking us all out yesterday haha   , something occured to me... 
Does anyone else think it's really weird that at the same time as Marvel is producing new origins for characters, rewriting history and basically saying the MUs past isn't really relevant, they've at the same time stepped up the publication rate of their Essential series, introducing and re-introducing thousands of readers to the very stories they're now trying to deny the existence of?

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 09:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Not really. After all, the Essential program really got ramped up when the Ultimate line first launched, and over at DC, the Archive line started around the time of Zero Hour, and this week saw the release of both Countdown to Infinite Crisis $1 and Batman Chronicles #1. Cake, Having and Eating Thereof. 

-Sean

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Thread 33

Posted: 25 Mar 2005 05:03 pm    Post subject: Wundarr? Aquarian? Don't know!
By ChastMastr

Okay, this is a long shot but I remember this. I KNOW I did. I read this story, really I did... 

Some years ago, maybe the late 1970s or early 1980s, I saw a story -- I think it was the last in the issue -- in one of Marvel's black and white comics magazines. 

It featured a character who turned out, I believe, to be Wundarr/the Aquarian. He was the last living human on Earth -- because in the future, all the humans in the Marvel Universe had eventually, possibly because the mutant gene had been dominant, evolved into mutants or other super-powered people. Due to the nature of his powers, he couldn't leave Earth, so the story ended with him alone and immortal, and I think most of it was flashback to the history of how it all came to pass. Very poignant -- the human race had a happy ending, going off to the stars, I think, but leaving him behind and alone. (I hadn't read Wundarr's other appearances until I found back issues of Marvel Two-In-One years later, so I didn't know who he was.) 

But I can't find a reference to this story anywhere. Or where it appeared (nor, therefore, what to look for on eBay or such to find the thing). 

Does this ring a bell with anyone at all? 

David 
the new guy

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Posted: 27 Mar 2005 10:27 am    
By Ross

He was a human... but he had super powers that kept him on Earth? Does that make sense? 

If I had to guess, it sounds like a story from Marvel Preview or Bizarre Adventures (though I can't find any support for Aquarian being in either title). Do any of these covers ring a bell? 

http://www.comics.org/covers.lasso?SeriesID=2260 
http://www.comics.org/covers.lasso?SeriesID=2595

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Posted: 28 Mar 2005 10:18 am    
By ChastMastr

THAT'S IT!! It was #32, the "Gods" issue, "The Prophet" by Mark Gruenwald. This little 12-page gem was so cool to me back then because it kind of gave a "happy ending" to the Marvel Universe (and interestingly sort of foreshadowed the later Earth X stuff about all of humanity basically becoming super-powered, which is why it's been in the back of my mind lately). Now I have to find it! 

http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=36586 

THANK YOU! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Apr 2005 07:00 am    
By Enda80

Thank you for remindg me about that story. I actually got that issue a while ago without realizing it was Wundarr.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2005 10:33 am    
By ChastMastr

Yes, as I've posted elsewhere, I use the method of different Marvel "continuities," so for me the story makes a nice finish to that era of Marvel ("And they all lived happily ever after, ascending to the stars. Well, except for poor Wundarr"), as Earth X does to its era.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 04 Apr 2005 08:28 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 4/4
By ADMINISTRATOR

These books ship from Diamond this week: 

AMAZING FANTASY #7 
GLA #1 
HULK #80 
MARVEL ADVENTURES SPIDER-MAN #2 
MARVEL TEAM-UP #7 
POWER PACK #1 
SHANNA THE SHE-DEVIL #3 
SPIDER-GIRL #85 
STRANGE #5 
PUNISHER #19 
ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR #17 
ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #75 
X-MEN FANTASTIC FOUR #5 
X-MEN UNLIMITED #8 

In addition, Diamond announces that Dream Police #1 is an Icon one-shot, not a limited or ongoing series. 

Effective with issue 8, Marvel Team-Up will increase in price from $2.25 to $2.99. 

The Marvel Visionaries: Steve Ditko hardcover will not contain the five-page story from Amazing Fantasy #14. That story will be added to an upcoming Marvel Milestones instead. 

The Essential Hulk Vol. 3, solicited as being 584 pages, will run 576 pages. 


watching: forensic files

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Thread 35

Posted: 11 Apr 2005 04:39 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 4/11
By ADMINISTRATOR

These books ship this week from Marvel: 

BLACK PANTHER #3 
DISTRICT X #12 
EXILES #62 
GAMBIT #9 
IRON MAN #3 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #13 
MARY JANE HOMECOMING #2 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #7 
POWERS #10 
TALES OF THE THING #2 
TOXIN #1 
ULTIMATE X-MEN #58 
ULTIMATES 2 #5 
X-MEN THE END HEROES & MARTYRS #2 

Additionally, Marvel has announced that 

the price of Hulk: Grey trade paperback has been reduced from $19.99 to $16.99; 

Secret War: From the Files of Nick Fury will contain material that will not be taken from the files appearing at the back of each issue of Secret War. This material will consist of Marvel Handbook-style bios of all key participants (including Spider-Man, Captain America, Luke Cage, Daredevil, Wolverine, the Black Widow, and many others) annotated by Fury, plus previously unseen transcripts, case files and interviews. Please Note: All art for the book, not just the cover (as solicited), will be created by Gabrielle Dell'Otto; 

The five-issue mini-series Combat Zone: True Tales of G.I.s in Iraq has been cancelled and will be resolicited as an original graphic novel at a later date. 


watching: catherine cryer

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Thread 36

Posted: 11 Apr 2005 07:00 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man 2 (the movie)
By Ross

I was just re-watching this the other day and I'm continually struck at how the scene where he stops the train gives me goosebumps. I'm not all the way through Amazing Spider-Man yet... does anyone know if there was ever a scene in the comics where an entire train (or group) of people sees Spidey with his mask off, but agrees not to tell anyone, and that's the end of it? (As opposed to, for example, Doc Ock unmasking him in front of everyone, but people think that Peter was just trying to impress people, etc.) 

The closest thing I can think of is the "Kid Who Collects Spider-Man" story from Amazing #248.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Apr 2005 12:43 pm    
By garbonzo

wasn't there something in the MK Spider-Man title where Peter is all beat up? The medical crew that works on him takes off his mask and gets to work. I think an orderly snapped a picture of him, but Peter's face was so screwed up that it was difficult to tell who it was.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Apr 2005 09:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes. Garbonzo is referring to M/KS-M 3.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 37

Posted: 11 Apr 2005 07:59 am    Post subject: GAP #1
By StAkAr Karnak

Apologies if this has been addressed elsewhere; I checked the FAQ and it seems that the 1993-4 Gap still exists. 

Is there a list of books missing from the MCP, specifically those missing from this period? Off the top of my head, there are a number of Warlock & the Infinity Watch missing. 

I realize that Russ has decided to take care of the books, but it would be a convenient reference to know exactly what is missing. 

- SK
_________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:StAkAr_Karnak

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 09:14 am    
By Dhall

When will the next update be? 

There is not an exact list of missing books, but the completed ones are listed in the faq.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Apr 2005 10:31 am    
By StAkAr Karnak

The completed books are not a concern because they are already here. I just want to define the 'unexplored territory'. 

- SK
_________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:StAkAr_Karnak

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Posted: 11 Apr 2005 01:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

StAkAr Karnak wrote: 
>>>
Apologies if this has been addressed elsewhere;  
<<<

It just so happens the subject was addressed last week. Apologies accepted. 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1273 


watching: live from

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Posted: 14 Apr 2005 06:31 am    
By StAkAr Karnak

Now we're geting somewhere! 

If I understand correctly, minimum, this is a list of what currently falls in the Gap. 

Alpha Flight (in progress) 
Cable 
Cage 
Deadpool 
Excalibur 
Galactic Guardians 
Gambit 
Guardians of the Galaxy 
Marvel Comics Presents 
Marvel Super-Heroes 
She-Hulk 
Shroud 
Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection 
Spider-Woman 
Spirits of Vengeance 
Super Soldiers 
Warlock Chronicles 
Warlock and Infinity Watch 
Wolverine (in progress) 
X-Factor 

Issue #s and an inclusion in the FAQ would be pretty cool. 

- SK
_________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:StAkAr_Karnak

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Posted: 14 Apr 2005 03:42 pm    
By Jim Smith

Rather than bug Russ to do it, I've been thinking that it would be a simple matter for some of us to look up these titles in the project and see which issues aren't listed. Obviously if M/CP 100 is on the project it can't be in the gap, and if M/CP 175 isn't on the project it must be in the gap. 

We could amass our findings here on the board, then edit the post as Russ updates the project until the gap is gone. That'd be more convenient, I think, than expecting Russ to keep a list on the FAQ which would need to be revised every month or so.

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 14 Apr 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject: Obscure question
By SKleefeld
Director

Okay, in the early 1990s, it was revealed that "Alicia Masters" was really a Skrull, and the real Alicia hadn't been seen since before the Secret Wars. Now, since the Human Torch had married "Alicia" and "Alicia" turned out to be an imposter, their marriage was annulled. I seem to recall hearing at some point that there was a newspaper headline to that effect in an issue of one of the Spider-Man titles, but I can't find anything to suggest what issue it is. 

Anyone happen to recall this little bit of trivia and pass along the appropriate issue number? Much appreicated.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2005 01:55 pm    
By ChastMastr

Here you go!!  

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~arlen/ffsummaries_defalco_ryan.html 

Quote: 
Issue #357 October, 1991, "The Monster Among Us!" 


In this issue, both the Puupet Master and Reed Richards discover something disturbing - that Alicia Masters is not human! Turns out that she is a Skrull named Lyja, the original Alicia was kidnapped way back in Secret Wars #12 (1984) and has been held captive ever since. 

Issue #358 November, 1991, "Whatever Happened to Alicia?" 


Thirtieth Anniversary Issue. In the wake of the discovery of Alicia's Skrulli-ness, the FF take off to the Skrull galaxy in search of the _real_ Alicia, and some answers. Of course, Johnny isn't very happy knowing that he fell in love with and married a Skrull. Turns out that Alicia was replaced with Lyja way back in the Secret Wars Era and that Johnny fell in love with and married Lyja. In the process of fighting on the Skrull war world, Lyja is killed by Paibok, the power Skrull, while protecting her beloved, the Human Torch. 


Except apparently she came back later, gave birth to an egg, sort of joined the FF for a while, and went off to wherever the FF went after the Onslaught thing happened. Did she ever come back? 

David

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2005 01:58 pm    
By ChastMastr

Aha, according to this site: 

http://www.ffplaza.com/library/?issue=ff2v3 

Quote: 
>>>
Though Lyja and Johnny's marriage became incredibly unstable when Lyja revealed her true self, they resolved their differences shortly before the battle with Onslaught. Presuming her husband dead, Lyja adopted a new disguise and left New York to lose herself in humanity. 
<<<


So... would this mean... she's out there somewhere?? 

David 
Somewhere out there, in the pale moonlight...

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2005 04:09 pm    
By SKleefeld

ChastMastr wrote: 
>>>
Aha, according to this site: 

http://www.ffplaza.com/library/?issue=ff2v3 

Quote: 
>>>
Though Lyja and Johnny's marriage became incredibly unstable when Lyja revealed her true self, they resolved their differences shortly before the battle with Onslaught. Presuming her husband dead, Lyja adopted a new disguise and left New York to lose herself in humanity. 
<<<
<<<
 

Thanks for chiming in, but I'm actually quite familiar with all that: that's my web site!  

What I'm thinking of is something that's definitely NOT in Fantastic Four. It was a newspaper headline (probably the Bugle) in a Spider-Man title that referenced these events without actually counting as an appearance by the FF and/or Lyja. If memory serves, Spidey makes a comment that's something to the effect of, "I should go talk to Johnny" but he gets wrapped up in his own storyline and never makes it over there. It's how Spider-Man learns of the Human Torch's marriage breaking up, but not really having anything about Torch and/or Lyja themselves. 

ChastMastr wrote: 
>>>
So... would this mean... she's out there somewhere?? 
<<<

Yup.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2005 08:16 pm    
By RLG

Are you sure you're not thinking of FF 362? 

- RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2005 08:38 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

RLG wrote: 
>>>
Are you sure you're not thinking of FF 362? 
<<<

I don't think so. I may be mixing the two stories, but it was my understanding that there was a newspaper that specifically cited the marriage as being annulled. The newspaper in FF 362 doesn't say one way or another, although Spider-Man in the next panels is able to infer a divorce.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Apr 2005 07:55 pm    
By RLG

I checked over ASM 351-364, WOSM 81-91, and PPTSS 180-191 for any reference. There is always a chance that the scene you are thinking of is in an issue of S-M from that time period, but I kind of doubt it. If my memory is correct, around that time S-M was focued on self-contained multi-issue story arcs. Give me some time to locate that run of issues in my "mess" and I'll double check for sure. 

After reading over FF 362, I disagree with your assesment of Spider-Man "infering" a divorce. On 5p5, after reading about the quickie divorce from the Bugle's gossip column, Spider-Man says, "The Human Torch got divorced?!" Seems pretty clear that Spidey is just learning about it right then and there. Also, on 6p2, Spidey states, "Maybe I should drop by his crib later...." 

Of course, a similar scene could be somewhere in a Spider-Man title, but once found, we'd have to make it mesh with the one above. 

RLG 

P.S. 84 days left and counting!!!

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 03:33 pm    
By RLG

Sean, 

Upon re-reading your previous post, I realize that I misunderstood what you had written. You are entirely correct in that FF 362's Daily Bugle issue "infers" a divorce and does not explictedly state it in the headlines. For some reason I though you meant that Spidey's comments "infered" a divorce. Sorry for the confusion in my previous post. 

I did have a chance to go over S-M 15-24 and did not find the scene in question. Do you think it could be any later? 

- RLG 

83 days and counting!

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 08:02 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

RLG wrote: 
>>>
Upon re-reading your previous post, I realize that I misunderstood what you had written. You are entirely correct in that FF 362's Daily Bugle issue "infers" a divorce and does not explictedly state it in the headlines. For some reason I though you meant that Spidey's comments "infered" a divorce. Sorry for the confusion in my previous post. 
<<<

No sweat. I appreciate your looking through your issues for me. 


RLG wrote: 
>>>
I did have a chance to go over S-M 15-24 and did not find the scene in question. Do you think it could be any later? 
<<<

That's possible. It would only need to happen sometime after FF 357 (Oct 1991) and could conceivably be after FF 362. I might be getting the context of the stories confused, and that this newspaper article I'm thinking of oculd be a kind of an after-the-fact notice. Kind of a "In celebrity news, the Human Torch had his marriage officially annulled yesterday" type of thing. I could see that showing up as late as late 1992.

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 07:30 pm    
By John Simons

Is it reasonable to guess that such a scene would most likely have appeared in a Spider-Man comic written by Tom DeFalco, since he is the mastermind behind Lyja and also he is the kind of oldschool Marvel creator who would put that kind of cross-MU touch in a different title he was writing? 

Unfortunately, most of the Spideys in the 90's come later than 1992, according to the Marvel Creators website: 

The Amazing Spider-Man (I) 365, 375, 407 - 439 
Spider-Man (I) 26 
Spider-Man Unlimited (I) 1 - 6, 15, 18 
Web of Spider-Man 128 - 129 

Any hope here? I could skim the ASMs I have on CD-ROM if it is possible the scene could have appeared as recently as 1996-1997.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 07:51 am    

By SKleefeld
Director

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Is it reasonable to guess that such a scene would most likely have appeared in a Spider-Man comic written by Tom DeFalco, since he is the mastermind behind Lyja and also he is the kind of oldschool Marvel creator who would put that kind of cross-MU touch in a different title he was writing? 

Unfortunately, most of the Spideys in the 90's come later than 1992, according to the Marvel Creators website: 

The Amazing Spider-Man (I) 365, 375, 407 - 439 
Spider-Man (I) 26 
Spider-Man Unlimited (I) 1 - 6, 15, 18 
Web of Spider-Man 128 - 129 
<<<

That was my thought, too. DeFalco also did some editting, too, but I don't know of any easy way to search which books he may have editted. 

Of course, it could be that word just got around from one of the other parties involved... Paul Ryan or Dan Bulanadi for example. Ryan was actually given co-plotting credits through most of those FF issues. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Any hope here? I could skim the ASMs I have on CD-ROM if it is possible the scene could have appeared as recently as 1996-1997. 
<<<

I've got the CDs, too, and have been skimming through them with no luck.

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Thread 39

Posted: 19 Apr 2005 10:24 am    Post subject: Technolgy used in comic books
By markp

Hi. I am working on a research paper at Kent State. The research paper deals with technology used in comic books which later becomes real. An example of this is Dick Tracy's wrist radio. Now there is a wrist cell phone. Flash Gordon's ray gun, and lasers today. The design of the Fantastic Fours ship, original series, and the SpaceShip One. If you know of any examples, please add them onto the thread, including the comic book name, issue, issue date, volume no., publisher, writer, artist, and the technology used today it resembles. 
Thank you, 
Mark.

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Posted: 19 Apr 2005 12:58 pm    
By Ross

Dr. Doom, the Wizard, and others were always building robot/android replicas of themselves, long before such technology existed in the real world. (Does it actually exist yet today - not sure, but we're definitely getting there.) 

Also, everyone always had a suit of armor or exo-skeleton in comics, and such things are now actually being created. Here's an example: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624945.800

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Thread 40

Posted: 14 Apr 2005 02:33 pm    Post subject: Coming from Marvel in July
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The July solicitations. Highlights... 

- HOUSE OF M continues with (deep breath) HOUSE OF M #3-4, IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1, FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1, SECRETS OF THE HOUSE M (a one-shot with background info), MUTOPIA X #1, UNCANNY X-MEN #462, NEW X-MEN #16, INCREDIBLE HULK #83-84, SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #2, PULSE: HOUSE OF M SPECIAL EDITION (a mock-up newspaper, believe it or not - 12 pages, 50 cents!), PULSE #10 and CABLE/DEADPOOL #17. And yes, that last issue is simultaneously a House of M tie-in AND part 3 of an ongoing storyline... 

- DAREDEVIL VERSUS PUNISHER #1 (of 6), by Dave Lapham. 

- DEFENDERS #1 (of 5), from Giffen, DeMatteis and Maguire. 

- GIANT-SIZE SPIDER-WOMAN #1, a collection of old Spider-Woman stories plus 8 pages of new material. 

- HULK: DESTRUCTION #1 (of 4). By Peter David, oddly enough. Sort of makes you wonder why it isn't in the mainstream Hulk title, which would have let them do a Hulk: House of M book, but there you go. This is billed as "the new, definitive origin of the Abomination." (If rumours about the effects of HOUSE OF M are correct, look out for a lot of this sort of thing.) 

- AMAZING FANTASY #10 sprouts a back-up strip, introducing a new feature, "Vampire By Night." Must have been hours coming up with that name... 

- THE OFFICIAL HANDBOOK covers the Avengers again. 

- IRON MAN #4 is solicited again. (Issue #3 came out this week. This arc is going to take forever to finish.) 

- NYX #6 is solicited! 

- WEAPON X: DAYS OF FUTURE NOW #1 (of 5). The miniseries wrapping up storylines from WEAPON X after Marvel realised that they'd cancelled the damn thing in mid-story. 

- MARVEL VISIONARIES: JOHN ROMITA SR collects a whole lot of stuff, including material from titles like MENACE and YOUNG MEN. 

- MARVEL MASTERWORKS produces another volume of Silver Age X-Men. This one covers X-MEN #43-53, AVENGERS #53 (because it's part of a crossover), and the Angel back-up strip from KA-ZAR and MARVEL TALES. 

- Incredibly, John Byrne's AVENGERS WEST COAST gets a trade paperback, since it's loosely the starting point for Avengers Disassembled. 

- ESSENTIAL KILLRAVEN vol 1, which would seem to cover pretty much everything apart from that Alan Davis miniseries from a few years back (which was rubbish, to be honest). It's even got the Marvel Knights one-shot.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Apr 2005 10:06 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Paul, I figured this might be a thread more appropriate for Chat. 

Oh, my achin' wallet. (Gotta...get...all...House of M...comics.) But if the rumors about a total reboot are true, the load may lighten quite a bit. 

And hooray for Defenders!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 02:01 am    
By Jim Smith

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
- HULK: DESTRUCTION #1 (of 4). By Peter David, oddly enough. Sort of makes you wonder why it isn't in the mainstream Hulk title, which would have let them do a Hulk: House of M book, but there you go. This is billed as "the new, definitive origin of the Abomination." (If rumours about the effects of HOUSE OF M are correct, look out for a lot of this sort of thing.) 
<<<

I strongly doubt that the point of House of M is to reboot the origins of non-feature characters, or that the first character on Marvel's list is the Abomination. I can see why Marvel might tinker with the continuity of, say, Spider-Man, or maybe Nick Fury, but who even thinks about the origin of the Abomination, let alone finds it in need of a retcon? 

There are some inconsistencies in the ways Paul Jenkins and Bruce Jones portrayed pre-Abomination Blonsky's relationship with his wife, so it's possible that the idea here is to straighten that out, rather than alter the circumstances of TTA 90.

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 08:05 am    
By Jason Doty

Is anyone getting the impression that House of "M" is starting to pan out as something similar to Age of Apocalypse, in the fact that it's only temporary. I know longer think this is a reboot but rather limited project by the discriptions in the previews. I'm really starting to get jazzed over this project, the more I read about it.

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 08:40 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Is anyone getting the impression that House of "M" is starting to pan out as something similar to Age of Apocalypse, in the fact that it's only temporary.  
<<<

Yes and no. 

The rumours about HOUSE OF M have been circulating for months, and thus far, when Marvel have confirmed anything, the rumour mill's turned out to be basically right about everything. 

SPOILERS: Basically, the plot is that Magneto and the Scarlet Witch combine their powers to warp reality and create a mutant-ruled world. This is the altered world that we see in the House of M crossover. Of course, it all gets undone in the end. So why is Marvel giving this story the "Nothing will be the same again" routine? 

Well, the rumour is that although the House of M reality gets undone, the Marvel Universe isn't restored quite the way it used to be. This then becomes the in-story explanation for some Zero Hour-style continuity tinkering. Which is why Quesada has described HOUSE OF M as "a way of putting some genies back into bottles." (It's basically the same device which Warren Ellis was going to use in END TIMES in 1999, before that plan got nixed.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 10:02 am    
By Dhall

Paul, 
Have there been any rumors of what exactly is going to be tinkered with?

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 10:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

No. Personally, I'm only expecting some tinkering at the margins, to address obviously problematic stories, streamline existing continuity, or sort out the difficulties with characters whose history is tied to a particular period in history (such as all the Cold War villains).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 10:41 am    
By Ross

Essential Killraven?? So much classic 60s/70s stuff, so long out of print, and they do an Essential Killraven? Is this a joke?

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 10:51 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

For one thing, most of the half-decent sixties material has already been covered by the Essentials series - although it's surprising that so little progress has been made with the Silver Age X-Men, while Essential Iron Fist and Essential Supervillain Team-Up have made it to the shelves. 

However, another factor is that they're going with what sells in the bookstores, and fantasy/horror material has proven much more popular than old superhero comics from 40 years ago. It seems to have aged better. This is why we're getting so many Essential Dracula volumes. They're probably viewing Killraven as being along similar lines.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 12:39 pm    
By rhod

Killraven is obviously being released to cash in on the film release of War of the Worlds rather than any thought that people are eager to read these stories. I'm actually starting to find it fun trying to guess which volume'll come next, based on what else is coming up, comic-wise and film-wise (ie Iron Man vol2 published at the same time as the much-vaunted Ellis reboot; FF vol4 (and a whole bunch of other FF reprints) out just in time for the movie). Any bets on Essential Ghost Rider being released in early '06? 
I'm also impatient for the next instalment of the 60's X-men, and I suppose I'll just have to wait for the Namor movie before we ever see Essential Sub-Mariner  

(Fingers crossed, Nick Fury'll get a new series, and I'll finally get to own the classic Steranko NFAOS stuff from Strange Tales  )

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 01:02 pm  
By ShadZ

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
I strongly doubt that the point of House of M is to reboot the origins of non-feature characters, or that the first character on Marvel's list is the Abomination.  
<<<

Maybe they are redoing origins alphabetically?
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 01:37 pm    
By Dhall

I would really prefer Marvel to leave the continuity alone, and just not refer so much the Cold War origin's and such. 

Whenever Marvel tries to change these things, it seems like it all gets undone fairly quickly. 

I just don't see the point, I mean it's not really like it makes the characters more marketable. After all, did John Bryne's new spider-man origin make the character more profitable for Marvel in any way, or Children of the atom? 

How many of us are dying to read a new origin (or whatever) for the Abomination?

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 04:07 pm    
By Ross

That's right, I forgot about the Killraven/War of the Worlds connection. That explains it. 

I'm a realist, I acknowledge that market realities require taking advantage of the latest/greatest co-promotional opportunities. But c'mon... how about an Essential Nick Fury, or an Essential Captain Marvel? Not to mention that there are still big chunks of Thor, Hulk, FF, Captain America, and many others that they need to attend to.

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 04:10 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I would really prefer Marvel to leave the continuity alone, and just not refer so much the Cold War origin's and such. 
<<<

Well, if you do that, then you have relatively major characters - such as the Abomination, who started as a dirty Commie spy - whose origins can only be vaguely alluded to. And since the origin ought to be an important part of the character, if you can never say what it is, then the character is broken and needs fixed.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Apr 2005 10:57 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
And since the origin ought to be an important part of the character, if you can never say what it is, then the character is broken and needs fixed. 
<<<

See, I hear what you're saying, but as a longtime X-Men fan...I'm pretty used to origins never getting referred to. I'm also pretty used to having ceratin character's origins (Wolverine) over-refered to, to the point where you have to spend weeks trying to figure out how it all works. I'd rather they keep it all vague..... 

I mean for the Abomination example, can't they just refer to him being a spy for Russia, or various Eastern European nations w/out going into the Cold War details? (Those details are really only of interest to the hard core fan, and can easily be looked up on the internet.) 

Or for another example, I really don't care which war Tony Stark's origin was in, as long as it's set somewhere in Asia (All those Vietcong would look pretty out-of-place in Bosnia or Iraq, me thinks...)

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 01:10 am    
By Jim Smith

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I would really prefer Marvel to leave the continuity alone, and just not refer so much the Cold War origin's and such. 
<<<

Well, if you do that, then you have relatively major characters - such as the Abomination, who started as a dirty Commie spy - whose origins can only be vaguely alluded to. And since the origin ought to be an important part of the character, if you can never say what it is, then the character is broken and needs fixed. 
<<<

There's basically two sets of communist characters in the MU: 

a) Characters necessarily affiliated with former communist countries, but not with communism itself. For a character like the Black Widow, her being Russian is a major aspect of her character--whether she's spying for Kruschev, Gorbechav, or Putin is of little consequence. 

b) Characters necessarily affiliated with the communist ideology, but not with any particular communist country. This is just about every two-bit communist villain seen during the 1960s, most notably the guerillas who captured Tony Stark in TOS 39. The only real characterization they have is the belief that the United States and capitalism must be eradicated, but whether they're working for the Soviet Union, Vietnam, or some fictional communist state like Carnellia is irrelevant. 

So when the need arises to retcon these characters' affiliations because their Cold War-era origins are outdated, I think the simplest way to go is to retcon either their nationality or their political affiliation. If it makes no sense for Emil Blonsky to have been a communist Russian spy, retcon him into just a Russian spy or a just a communist spy. It's not as if the Abomination is constantly spouting Marxist rhetoric and lecturing the Hulk about the perils of capitalism, so it's not worth retconning his entire origin to get the one or two lines where he's referred to as a red. 

Of course, I'm still far from being convinced PAD's goal with this miniseries is to fix any of this stuff, but rather to expand upon Abomination's origin, and in so doing eliminate the communist stuff by way of ignoring it.

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 12:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I just don't see the need for retcons for the sake of topical references. I say let the original stories and character origins stand as they are. So World War II happened 30 years ago in the MU and Russian Communists were threats 20 years ago. Why rewrite origins just to cater to our temporal POV in the real world? Marvel Time passes more slowly than real time and Marvel stories keep using references from the real-world present. To me, the solution is to collapse all those real-world references into a condensed MU timeframe. That way, we can continue to observe the slow passage of MU time and still consider topical plot references as canonical. 

Hey, we all can handle cosmic beings, mutant super-powers, and alternate universes...I think we can make sense out of Emil Blonsky et al being Commie agents just a couple of decades ago within the framework of a fictional universe. And the FF WERE trying to beat the Communists to the stars 20 or so years ago, Marvel Time. I can buy it. The fact that I know that the real-world space race occurred 40 years ago doesn't get in the way of appreciating and accepting the stories as written. 

And once you start integrating these retcons into lists of character appearances, reading stories in chronological order is going to be a mess.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 02:21 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

What, no "Punisher: House of M" tie in miniseries? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 02:33 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I just don't see the need for retcons for the sake of topical references. I say let the original stories and character origins stand as they are. So World War II happened 30 years ago in the MU and Russian Communists were threats 20 years ago. Why rewrite origins just to cater to our temporal POV in the real world? 
<<<

Because that's the only point of view that 99.9% of readers care about. Continuity is a tool for telling stories; there's no point preserving it when it starts to impede the stories. And distorting the entire course of history simply to preserve a bunch of Cold War stories is pointless. There comes a point when it's better to cut that stuff loose so that the characters can be made to work for a modern audience. Continuity for its own sake isn't the be all and end all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 05:25 pm    
By Dhall

I have yet to be convinced that Marvel has a crop of "Modern readers." Yeah, they pick up a few now and again, only to lose them just as quickly. I think most of their readership are the old diehards like us. I think the newer readers that they do have are reading Ultimate Whatever, and not the MU books. 

I get concerned when TPTB think that by changing their characters origins, or whatever, that they will pick up more readers. Not so. The same people who don;t care about the Abomination today, won't care about him tommorrow after a retcon. 

If the character is broken, drop him, pick up a new character. (Yes I know Marvel hasn't had a hit breakout character since the 70's.)

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 09:21 pm    
By Jim Smith

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
To me, the solution is to collapse all those real-world references into a condensed MU timeframe. That way, we can continue to observe the slow passage of MU time and still consider topical plot references as canonical. 
<<<

Marvel is never, ever going to do this, Paul, because there's no way to describe it without sounding like the technobabble on a bad episode of Star Trek: Voyager. 

Marvel's approach focuses on the short-term--a Captain America story in 1973 refers to World War II happening thirty years ago, a Cap story in 2001 refers to WWII happening forty years ago, and Marvel counts on the reader not to have both stories on his mind at the same time so he won't think about the inconsistency. This works on most fans, I'd wager, because most fans aren't frantically trying to make sense of the Marvel Universe as a larger, cohesive framework. If most fans were, there'd be a lot more traffic on this board. 

Based on my experience I would say that the people who oppose the "ten year rule" or want World War II to always be "x years ago" are the fringe, the fans who are more interested in getting the MU timeline to synch up with itself than with getting it to synch up with the real world. But in general, Marvel's fan base seem to prefer an MU that's largely in line with the real world, cosmic rays and thunder gods notwithstanding. This is why society in the MU, for the most part, resembles our own, and why MU's United States doesn't benefit from Reed Richards's inventions or win wars through the Avengers' intervention. It's the reason superheroes can't put an end to famine or capture Osama bin Laden. Because then their world would be insurmountibly different from our own. 

A world in which World War II happened thirty years ago--a world that's seen seven US presidents, Vietnam, Watergate, the fall of communism, and 9/11 since Peter Parker started high school--would be fundamentally different from our world. I suppose that difference would be acceptible to you, Paul, but I think most fans would find it jarring to read a 2005 Captain America comic that says World War II ended in 1975, or a 2005 Cap comic that says WWII ended in 1945 but that the current year is 1975. Month after month Marvel would have to explain this to confused new readers, and the explanation--that Marvel has "collapsed all real-world references into a condensed MU timeframe" wouldn't make a lot of sense to a lot of people. 

I don't want to debate whether your approach would be better for the Marvel Universe as a storytelling tool, because I think that's subjective. But as a marketing tool, I think Marvel believes it wouldn't do them any favors. 


Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I have yet to be convinced that Marvel has a crop of "Modern readers." Yeah, they pick up a few now and again, only to lose them just as quickly. I think most of their readership are the old diehards like us. 
<<<

I see this attitude a lot and it really irks me. I've only given a whit about Marvel since about 1997. That's been a while now--longer than I care to admit--but I don't think it's been long enough for me to count as an "old diehard." So I take this to mean that you feel Marvel should do whatever you want to see, but whatever I want to see is irrelevant because Marvel is only a fad to me and in six months I'll be reading Tokyopop or something. 

Marvel is first and foremost a business, and it's not going to stay in business catering exclusively to its established fanbase to the detriment of attracting new audiences. Aside from the fact that older, more loyal fans are the ones who swear off Marvel over the least little thing (They replaced Spider-Man with a clone for two years so now I'll never read Fantastic Four for the rest of my life!), eventually everyone currently reading Marvel is going to be dead, so the company has to plan for who'll be reading in the future. 

Rebooting the entire Marvel canon just to fix one lousy Hulk villain would do pointless damage to the goodwill of the established Marvel readership. But screwing with the flow of historical events to make Marvel continuity more logical would pointlessly confuse new readers in a vain effort to placate a small portion of the established base.

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 10:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Continuity is a tool for telling stories; there's no point preserving it when it starts to impede the stories. 
<<<


But, IS past continuity impeding the telling of good stories, filled with all those good contemporary references that current readers expect to see? Really? 

With Ultimate Universe and Marvel Adventures out there, is there really a need for retconning the mainstream MU? Maybe that's a good poll question.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 10:41 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
I've only given a whit about Marvel since about 1997. That's been a while now--longer than I care to admit--but I don't think it's been long enough for me to count as an "old diehard." 
<<<

Well I don't mean to irk you, but if you've stuck with it for almost a decade, and you care enough to have 140 posts HERE, then yeah I think you're an old diehard.....I'm sure there's many who would disagree, and call me a "newbie" since I've only been reading since 1984. 

My point is that Marvel hasn't had any big new hits in years, and that suggests to me that they haven't done a good job of appealing to new readers. 

Yes they keep trying, but nothing seems to work. 


Quote: 
>>>
So I take this to mean that you feel Marvel should do whatever you want to see, but whatever I want to see is irrelevant because Marvel is only a fad to me and in six months I'll be reading Tokyopop or something.  
<<<

Marvel should publish whatever Marvel is going to publish, but look at thier track record, how many new series have died after six issues, and become mini-series? And yes I do think that a lot of new readers move on to other things, and YES Marvel does need to do something about this. 

I just don't see them doing anything that I think is going to bring in new readership, and before someone asks, I have no clue what will work for them. 

A string of breakout hit comics would probably do the job, but I don't see that on the horizon. 

I still fail to see how crashing their continuity around their ears is going to help attract new readership....

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Posted: 16 Apr 2005 11:46 pm  
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
...older, more loyal fans are the ones who swear off Marvel over the least little thing (They replaced Spider-Man with a clone for two years so now I'll never read Fantastic Four for the rest of my life!), ... 
<<<

I'm not sure I'd call that "the least little thing." 

Furthermore, the way I remember it, people were angry, not that Spider-Man was replaced by a clone for two years, but that Marvel tried to tell us that the previous 25 years of Spider-Man stories weren't really Spider-Man, but a clone. And I know of people who swore off Spider-Man stories because of the clone saga, but the people I knew who swore off all Marvel stories were upset at a lot more than just the clone. Read the FAQ for some examples. 


watching: sports center

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 01:55 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

To me, the obvious solution to all of the chronology problems is simple: let the characters grow older. It's stupid to concieve that all of the adventures of the last 40 plus years have occured in as small a time frame as 10 years. The continuity is suffering because Marvel keeps telling the same stories over and over. This keeps the characters from evolving with the passing of time. I mean, how many years can they continue to portray Spiderman as an inept rookie? How many years can they keep portraying the Human Torch as an immature teenager? People change as they grow older. Marvel needs to create new characters to take over for the old guard. Instead, they'd rather just recycle the old characters over and over. 

Take a look at other fictional tales: By the time of the Star Trek movies, did they claim that Kirk and company were still on that infamous "5 year voyage"? No, they showed that Kirk was growing older. And he still had cool adventures. And when it was time to move on, they handed the stories over to "The Next Generation". 

Why comic books can't operate like other works of fiction, I don't know...but I think it's because the companies like to milk their stars for all their worth, and if you have Spiderman grow older, then they're afraid the average person on the street won't recognize him anymore. 

As for the debate about how to increase more business, (Marvel seems to think that updating character's origins is the key) why did the comic companies ever stop releasing comics in grocery stores? I use to love to go look through the comic books on the magazine stand in the local grocery store when I was a kid. But now everything is "comic book store" exclusive. It's another case of the nerdy comic book community shooting itself in the foot: if you say that comics are only available to comic book stores, how are new readers going to stumble across comic books?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 03:11 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Take a look at other fictional tales: By the time of the Star Trek movies, did they claim that Kirk and company were still on that infamous "5 year voyage"? No, they showed that Kirk was growing older. And he still had cool adventures. And when it was time to move on, they handed the stories over to "The Next Generation". 
<<<

In fairness, Kirk grew older, partially because the actor who portrayed him aged. On the other side of the coin, isn't James Bond in his eighties, now? 


watching: avalon

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 03:52 pm    
By Jim Smith

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Well I don't mean to irk you, but if you've stuck with it for almost a decade, and you care enough to have 140 posts HERE, then yeah I think you're an old diehard.....I'm sure there's many who would disagree, and call me a "newbie" since I've only been reading since 1984. 
<<<

Then what you mean by "old diehard" is someone with a strong interest in Marvel's history and continuity, regardless of how long he's been reading the comics. So I'd leave the "old" part out of that term. 


Dhall wrote: 
>>>
My point is that Marvel hasn't had any big new hits in years, and that suggests to me that they haven't done a good job of appealing to new readers. 
<<<

It's unfortunate that Marvel hasn't come up with a new sensation since Wolverine and the All-New X-Men, but I wouldn't say that prevents them from appealing to new readers. They appeal to new readers reasonably well with the hit characters from the '60s and '70s. 

What you seem to be saying is that because Marvel hasn't created a huge new character since 1975 they should give up appealing to new readers and focus on catering to the most loyal fans. And since you were responding to Bourcier and O'Brien's discussion about whether modern fans want to read an MU in which the Cold War only last 20 years and ended five years ago, I take it you feel this is what the most loyal fans want, and should get whether the new fans like it or not. 

I'm just saying, as a loyal fan who was only a new reader fairly recently, that I would never have become a loyal fan if Marvel had implemented Paul Bourcier's concept back when I was a newbie. The two big comics that won me over to the publisher were Untold Tales of Spider-Man and Thunderbolts, both of which were steeped in Marvel's Golden and Silver Age and would have become dramatically more confusing to a new reader under Paul's proposal. They'd probably be easier to chart on Paul's calendar, but that's not Marvel's priority and never will be. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
...older, more loyal fans are the ones who swear off Marvel over the least little thing (They replaced Spider-Man with a clone for two years so now I'll never read Fantastic Four for the rest of my life!), ... 
<<<

I'm not sure I'd call that "the least little thing." 

Furthermore, the way I remember it, people were angry, not that Spider-Man was replaced by a clone for two years, but that Marvel tried to tell us that the previous 25 years of Spider-Man stories weren't really Spider-Man, but a clone. And I know of people who swore off Spider-Man stories because of the clone saga, but the people I knew who swore off all Marvel stories were upset at a lot more than just the clone. Read the FAQ for some examples. 
<<<

I know the Spider-Clone saga was one of the things that put you off Marvel for a while, Russ, so please don't take that as a shot against you. 

But that's an extreme example of stuff I see all the time. A comic gets cancelled, a character dies, a disagreeable retcon takes effect, and a fan decides to never read a Marvel comic again (or comics period) forever. I know a guy who occasionally picks up an Essential, but steadfastly won't read any comics because of Ben Reilly, even though the Clone Saga retcons were done away with almost ten years ago. I've seen people swear off Marvel because the last Ghost Rider monthly got cancelled. I've seen people so mad that Fabian Nicieza was fired from Gambit that they wouldn't read any Marvel books, including the ones Fabian was still writing. Some of these people come back--you came back, obviously--but many don't. I think it's an overreaction (I was bummed out when they cancelled Thunderbolts, but dropping good comics like Fantastic Four wasn't going to solve anything) and I think it's a big part of the industry's problems. 

And it's the diehards--not all of them, but some--who do it, not the much-maligned new readers that some would say aren't worth Marvel's attention. It's diehards who should know by now that Hawkeye will be back but write hate mail to Bendis anyway. It's diehards who know Onslaught and Age of Apocalypse ultimately didn't change the MU very much, but will treat House of M like the irreversable destruction of everything they hold dear.

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 04:10 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
I know the Spider-Clone saga was one of the things that put you off Marvel for a while, Russ, so please don't take that as a shot against you. 
<<<

I didn't take it that way. 

But I still don't think it's the least little thing. 


Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
It's diehards who should know by now that Hawkeye will be back but write hate mail to Bendis anyway. It's diehards who know Onslaught and Age of Apocalypse ultimately didn't change the MU very much, but will treat House of M like the irreversable destruction of everything they hold dear. 
<<<

I'll admit, I don't understand all the hoopla over Hawkeye's "death." And as for House of M, let's give Marvel the chance to screw it up, before we accuse them of doing so. 


watching: all the president's men

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 09:39 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
In fairness, Kirk grew older, partially because the actor who portrayed him aged. On the other side of the coin, isn't James Bond in his eighties, now? 
<<<

And have you seen how stagnant the last few James Bond movies have been? And they actually did a movie where Sean Connery came back to play James Bond in his old age, I believe. 

On the other hand, do people watch the new James Bond films, go back and watch the 60's Bond films, and write the old 60's films off as non-canon? No, they just smile and enjoy the quirkiness of them, (yes, they were products of their times...but so is everything), and they get on with their lives. Why Marvel the company believes new fans can't do the same with their superheroes, I don't know... 

Watch, they'll probably eventually release "Special Edition" versions of the old James Bond films, modernizing them...  


Quote: 
>>>
I'll admit, I don't understand all the hoopla over Hawkeye's "death." And as for House of M, let's give Marvel the chance to screw it up, before we accuse them of doing so.  
<<<

Oh, but boy are we going to be ready to pounce the instant they screw it up!  As for Hawkeye, fans usually react with fury when the "Death" of their favorite character isn't handled well. And that was NOT the best written death scene...
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 09:47 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
And that was NOT the best written death scene... 
<<<

Hmmn, we all know that death in comics doesn't last, because of the reset button which drags everything back to the status quo after a while. 

So, I wouldn't get worked up over a favorite character's death, but yeah I'd be upset if it were done as poorly as Hawkeye's was.

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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 03:44 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
And have you seen how stagnant the last few James Bond movies have been? And they actually did a movie where Sean Connery came back to play James Bond in his old age, I believe. 

On the other hand, do people watch the new James Bond films, go back and watch the 60's Bond films, and write the old 60's films off as non-canon? No, they just smile and enjoy the quirkiness of them, (yes, they were products of their times...but so is everything), and they get on with their lives. Why Marvel the company believes new fans can't do the same with their superheroes, I don't know... 
<<<

It's a bad comparison, because the James Bond films place very little reliance on continuity. You don't have to worry about how the older films fit in, because they don't have to fit in. It makes no practical difference whether they happened or not. Marvel, on the other hand, has a whole bunch of early sixties stories which can't simply be ignored because they're origin stories, and fundamental to the histories of the characters. Bond doesn't have an origin - he's just a secret agent who does his job. 

(As for Sean Connery's comeback film, that was made by a different bunch of producers who had managed to pick up the rights to one of the Bond books. The same novel had already been adapted for the mainstream series years earlier.) 

So yes, you CAN do continuity that way - if you don't care about it. It's a perfectly workable way to run a franchise, but only if you're deciding to treat inter-story history as largely irrelevant. The Marvel Universe isn't set up that way, and for the most part, it can't handle being written in that fashion. Casual readers simply won't accept that, for example, Iron Man's origin could possibly be tied to the Korean War, since it's far too long ago, and no "sliding timeline" argument will ever render it credible to them.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 08:54 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Casual readers simply won't accept that, for example, Iron Man's origin could possibly be tied to the Korean War, since it's far too long ago. 
<<<

It never was tied to the Korean War. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 10:07 am    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
In fairness, Kirk grew older, partially because the actor who portrayed him aged. On the other side of the coin, isn't James Bond in his eighties, now? 
<<<

And have you seen how stagnant the last few James Bond movies have been? And they actually did a movie where Sean Connery came back to play James Bond in his old age, I believe. 

On the other hand, do people watch the new James Bond films, go back and watch the 60's Bond films, and write the old 60's films off as non-canon? No, they just smile and enjoy the quirkiness of them, (yes, they were products of their times...but so is everything), and they get on with their lives. Why Marvel the company believes new fans can't do the same with their superheroes, I don't know... 

Watch, they'll probably eventually release "Special Edition" versions of the old James Bond films, modernizing them...   
<<<

Well, that's exactly what Never Say Never Again (the " movie where Sean Connery came back to play James Bond in his old age") was - a remake of Thunderball, since that's all Kevin McClory's rights amounted to (he co-wrote the original screenplay for Thunderball before the deal to make Bond movies fell apart, which is where that came from - TB was originally going to be the first Bond movie in that scenario - then Fleming later did a deal with Broccoli & Saltzman, they started with Dr No, but they eventually bought McClory off enough to make Thunderball [he realised that it would have lost against the "official" movies sans Connory. Which is why the people who made Casino Royale took a, ah, different tack], and McClory proceeded to make trouble for them for 30 years)

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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 01:57 pm    
By Somebody

Oh, and no-one notice this yet? 

Quote: 
ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR #21 
Written by MARK MILLAR 
Pencils & Cover by GREG LAND 
"CROSSOVER" Part 1 (of 3) 
Ultimate Starts Month begins here! Mark Millar returns to Ultimate Fantastic Four, and he's brought X-Men: Phoenix Endsong superstar Greg Land with him! Even in their short careers, the Ultimate FF have seen a lot of amazing things - but nothing will prepare them for the world they're about to enter! Reed Richards has used his scientific genius to contact an Earth in a surprisingly familiar parallel dimension - and he's ready to visit! 
32 PGS./T+ SUGGESTED FOR TEENS AND UP ...$2.50 


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Posted: 18 Apr 2005 02:52 pm    
By PopularLoser

Oh, I noticed that but I was too busy enjoying the ensuing arguement over Marvel's handling of its own timeline. I'm not sure if I like the idea of an Ultimate/616 crossover. I kinda liked the idea that the Ultimate Universe was entirely seperate and unconnected to any other universe. Oh well. 
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<Insert Signature Here>

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Posted: 21 Apr 2005 02:10 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

For those of you who want to see the covers and artwork for the solicitations for July, you can go to this link: 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=5112 

Some of those covers give too much away, in my opinion...the cover for Young Avengers in particular. 

Gawd, Marvel's really flooding the market...is it just me, or is "House of M" looking more and more like an "Age of Apocolypse" type crossover, and less of a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" type crossover? The "FF:House of M" and "Iron Man: House of M" and all the rest seem like they're nothing more than "What If" type stories...I wonder if they're worthy following chronology wise. If they had actually done like "Age of Apocolypse" did, they would've just replaced the regular series with tie in miniseries for 4 months...but noooo, they've got to make sure to do their best to break my wallet!  

Not to mention there's a lot of other good miniseries starting up this month...all of which I can't afford...I should follow the Daredevil/Punisher miniseries, because it's set in the now infamous "One Year" gap in Daredevil, (yay! Just what we need! More treading over familiar ground!) but it's time to start choosing what books I'm going to support because I enjoy reading them, and not just what books I'm going to follow for continuity purposes... 

TOO...MANY...BOOKS...MARVEL!!!
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 41

Posted: 25 Apr 2005 06:19 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 4/27
By ADMINISTRATOR

These books ship from Marvel this week: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA #5 
DAREDEVIL #72 
EXILES #63 
FANTASTIC FOUR FOES #4 
KABUKI #4 
NEW AVENGERS #5 
PUNISHER #20 
SPELLBINDERS #2 
SUPREME POWER #16 
ULTIMATE SECRET #2 
WOLVERINE SOULTAKER #3 
X-FORCE SHATTERSTAR #3 
X-MEN AGE OF APOCALYPSE #6 
X-MEN PHOENIX ENDSONG #5 

Marvel also announces that: 

The page count of the Powers Vol. 8: Legends TP has decreased from 272 pages to 208 pages. As a result, the price has changed from $19.95 to $17.95. 


watching: buffy
