	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Another BTS question...
2. CHAMELEON correction
3. Black Panther notes
4. Lilith note; in Vampire Tales#4/6
5. Is Jack God?
6. Spider Family Additions
7. The latest issue of Daredevil...
8. X 58 - Cannonball
9. Hammer
10. Scourge chronology problems
11. Alpha Flight #121
12. Fu Manchu fb's; a few missed
13. New X-Men #13 vs. Alpha Flight v3
14. Fandral Note; as Robin Hood he appeared in
15. Cap Chronology correction
16. NEW WARRIORS additions
17. Captain America Annual 6 question
18. New site for chronologies - Chronology Centrl
19. Memorial service attendees
20. MK Spiderman #9-Flashbacks
21. Krang appearances; Byrrah
22. GAM4 10 Flashback
23. Enemy Of The State / New Thunderbolts
24. ASM 40 flashback
25. PING: John Simons: UTSM
26. D-MAN
27. Baron Strucker question
28. Hulk persona labels (mostly to Kevin W)
29. GLA #2 placement...
30. FIRELORD
31. Was it REALLY Daredevil in SS&WP #23?
32. Red Skull Notes
33. Fang question; Captain America Annual#6 or.....
34. "Untold Tales O'Spidey" additions
35. Kraven The Hunter
36. Spider-Man/Human Torch #4
37. Punisher: The Cell. Is it canon?
38. Classic X-Men #14
39. Placement of Marvel Team-Up #1
40. Avengers #282
41. Anansi and Moses question
42. Euroforce
43. Jameson question; any other war-time appearances?
44. Mister Sinister bts in Bushwacker's early....
45. Handbook FAQ answers questions!
46. Wolverine placement...
47. Incredible Hulk #81 [SPOILERS]
48. Dracula Chronology Notes
49. Something going on with Adding page & panel ranges?
50. Nick Fury notes; Korean War
51. New Avengers #1-2 Villains

	Issue Analysis Forum
52. TALES TO ASTONISH 59-64/2 (Hulk stories)
53. FF/DS2/WCA2/ROA
54. TALES TO ASTONISH 65/2-69/2 ~ A 17 (Hulk stories)
55. TALES TO ASTONISH 70/2-74/2 (Hulk stories)
56. TALES TO ASTONISH 75/2-79/2 (Hulk stories)
57. TALES TO ASTONISH 80/2-84/2 (Hulk stories)
58. TALES TO ASTONISH 85/2-89/2 (Hulk stories)
59. Incredible Hulk v1 #1-6
60. Amazing Spider-Man and the X-Men in Arcade's Revenge!
61. NFL Pro Action vol.1 #1 and vol.2 #2 (comic inserts)
62. X-Men Siege and Destroy (Drakes Cakes Mini Comic part 5)
63. X-Men: The Coming of Triplkill no.1
64. X-Men: Time Gliders no.1-4 (Hardee's Mini Comics)
65. X-Men and Captain Universe: Sleeping Giants no.1
66. New Avengers / Fantastic Four military giveaway
67. X-Men Halloween Special Edition no.1
68. Gus Beezer Spider-Man
69. What If vol.2 #69, 71, 73, 78, and 92
70. Pre-Calendar Update Call for Analyses
71. Chronology Review for Black Widow Vol. 4...
72. Monsters on the Prowl#23
73. Venom vs Carnage #1-4
74. the X-Men in: Life Lessons

	Chat Forum
75. Doctor Doom's time machine problems; who has which one?
76. Shipping this week: 5/9
77. Marvel Super Heroes: The Ultimate Science Exhibition
78. Cap#255 question; Jameson in it?
79. Shipping this week: 5/16
80. Crimson Dyamo note




Thread 1

Posted: 30 Apr 2005 07:42 am    Post subject: Another BTS question...
By Paul O'Brien
Director

NEW AVENGERS #5 raises a somewhat interesting point about how to treat BTS appearances. 

For those who aren't reading the book, a brief summary. In NEW AVENGERS #4, the Avengers arrive in the Savage Land. Wolverine is already there. In NEW AVENGERS #5, Wolverine is asked why he's come there. He replies that he's following a tip-off from, of all people, the Shocker. (The Shocker is simply looking for some superheroes to tip off, and with the Avengers disbanded, he turns to the X-Men as a prominent team who are listed in the phone book. This actually makes reasonable sense.) 

So... does this constitute a BTS appearance by the Shocker? And if so, in which issue? We never see the phone call itself, but he's a necessary part of the plot because without his involvement, Wolverine never goes to the Savage Land. The call is mentioned in issue #5, but clearly took place prior to Wolverine arriving in the Savage Land in issue #4. 

My inclination is to list Shocker as BTS in issue #4, even though he's not mentioned anywhere in the issue. However, that's the issue in which his impact on the plot is first felt (Wolverine goes to the Savage Land). Issue #5 merely reveals his role in issue #4, but he doesn't have a continuing BTS role because Wolverine isn't acting as his agent.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Apr 2005 09:42 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
My inclination is to list Shocker as BTS in issue #4, even though he's not mentioned anywhere in the issue. However, that's the issue in which his impact on the plot is first felt (Wolverine goes to the Savage Land). Issue #5 merely reveals his role in issue #4, but he doesn't have a continuing BTS role because Wolverine isn't acting as his agent. 


I agree. 


watching: dolans unscripted

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Posted: 30 Apr 2005 11:37 am    
By John Simons

Actually it's the Scorcher, not the Shocker. Let's give BTS credit where it's due!

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Posted: 30 Apr 2005 10:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This raises an interesting issue -- one I've dealt with in the calendar by noting an entry of simply "[BTS]" with no issue title or number. 

What happens when a reference is made to a character's actions in the past (relative to the scene in which the reference is made), but we have no accompanying flashback graphic? A recent example was M/KS-M 6, in which Sandman states that Wonder Man and Tigra fought Boomerang "just a few weeks ago?" How does an MCP listing for Wonder Man and Tigra appear? M/KS-M 6-BTS? M/KS-M 6-FB-BTS? 

I believe current convention and Official Index precedent call for the former, although I think these instances are BTS events that occur prior to the time they're referenced, but during the timeframe of an issue -- for instance, "Tony Stark let me borrow this quinjet," within the context of the story being told. But the Wonder Man and Tigra reference above clearly occurred sometime before the issue (and even before the storyline) in which it's noted. 

By the same token, a notation of "M/KS-M 6-FB-BTS" seems to suggest that an actual flashback (a visual depiction of an event in the past) is present in that issue and that the character is merely off-panel in the visual flashback scene. And that clearly is not the case. 

Ideas?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 May 2005 01:27 am    
By jephyork
Director

How about a new notation, called "REF" -- meaning, Reference? A way to describe scenarios like that, when an issue reveals new events for characters that don't appear, and the events didn't take place during the timeframe of the story? 

M/KS-M 6-REF could be placed prior to the time the issue occurs, like a FB, but would be used when there's no actual on-panel flashback. 

Something to incorporate into the big overhaul proposal I'm working on, I think...  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 May 2005 10:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
A recent example was M/KS-M 6, in which Sandman states that Wonder Man and Tigra fought Boomerang "just a few weeks ago?" How does an MCP listing for Wonder Man and Tigra appear? M/KS-M 6-BTS? M/KS-M 6-FB-BTS? 
<<<

My understanding would be that that wouldn't qualify for a listing at all. They aren't in the issue, nor are they behind the scenes influencing the events of the issue. It isn't an appearance.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 2

Posted: 01 May 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject: CHAMELEON correction
By Arthur
Director

CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV 

SENSM '96-FB 
{ASM 1} -- I do not have an original Amazing Spiderman #1, but was not the Chameleon in the second story? i.e ASM 1/2. The first being John Jameson's rescue? 
ASM 15

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Posted: 01 May 2005 01:16 pm    
By shandrakor

You're right. It should be ASM 1/2.

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Thread 3

Posted: 06 Apr 2005 10:47 pm    Post subject: Black Panther notes
By SKleefeld
Director

Just found a few of Brevoort's Panther notes on another message board... 

Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
The book wasn't hyped as a reboot--Reggie just referred to it as a reboot in error online somewhere, and everybody picked up on it. So yes, it's a "year one" type of story, but the character's history remains intact, and he was certainly an Avenger. 
<<<

Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
Guys, it's a Year One story, taking place between FF #52-53 and the later TALES OF SUSPENSE issues with the Panther. The administration doesn't remember "Enemy of the State" because it hasn't happened yet. 
<<<

I think that fairly concisely clears things up on placement of the main story.

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Posted: 02 May 2005 07:53 pm    
By the Krayon

what message board has this? 

-the_Krayon

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Posted: 03 May 2005 07:59 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

It was originally posted on the comiXfan message board, but it was copied over to the ComicBoards one, which is where I first heard about it. 

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=21812&page=67&pp=20 
http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?trd=050406144633

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Thread 4

Posted: 04 May 2005 06:54 am    Post subject: Lilith note; in Vampire Tales#4/6
By Enda80

LILITH II 
VT 4/6 
GR3 28-BTS 
{SOV 1} 
MORBIUS 1 
........................... 


Vampire Tales#4 (April 1974) has a one-page story of Lilith's history. The script was by Tony Isabella and art by Ernie Chua. 

(Vampire Tales#4/6) Lilith leaves Adam, refusing to accept his sexism, despite the please of the three angels, Sanvi, Sansanvi, and Semangeleaf. The angels slaughtered the children she had with Adam. (Oddly, many times today people will call someone an "angel" as a compliment.) As a result, Lilith changed, became vampiric, and tried to kill Adam's children by Eve. The angel's banished her, and aftewards, people used their names on amulets against Lilith. 

This would long predate Lilith's Ghost Rider appearances. 


Lilith's Greenberg the Vampire appearances should be excluded, though. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/lilth1.htm 
In addition, Marvel Graphic Novel#20: Greenberg the Vampire, @ 1986, featured Lilith in her "Night Rider"/Infant Stealer role. This story contains no elements (short of the existence of vampires and Lilith herself and her children) to otherwise connect it to the Marvel Universe. In fact, as pointed out by John McDonagh, the letter page of Dr. Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts (Dr. Strange (vol2)) #66 states that the story of Greenberg the Vampire did not take place in the Marvel Universe. This was in answer to a question of whether he was destroyed by the reading of the Montesi Formula in Dr. Strange II#62

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Thread 5

Posted: 01 Apr 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Is Jack God?
By garbonzo

Ok. I was going to research this fully and present a well-thought out post. But, given the recent events, I should get this posted for discussion asap. 

Over the years, two characters named "stan" and "jack" have made a variety of apppearances in the Marvel comics. Most times they have had some sort of meta-comment about either characters or books (such as in UXM when they see Scott and Jean kiss, Stan comments that nothing like that ever happend when they were in charge of the book). 

now, given the FF's recent visit with "God", who looked a heckuva lot like Jack Kirby, wouldn't it serve to meld the listings for both jack and God? I mean, the intent was clearly that Jack was God (or God at least looked like Jack). 

this would help to give a reason to all those "Stan and jack" appearances throughout the years. 

I turn this over to the better versed (Sean, I'm especially looking your way on this one!) to come to a decison.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 12:48 pm   
By SKleefeld
Director

Well, since you called me out by name, I suppose I'd better respond.  

We actually had a not-too-dissimilar discussion a little while ago regarding the differences between William Shatner and Captain Kirk within the Marvel Universe, and I think much of that applies here. (In fact, I think I even cited the "Jack as God" story a couple of times.) 

The upshot is that what you and I are seeing in the comics are line drawings of what's "real." It's a simplification/abstraction of a person and, as such, it can represent several people simultaneously. 

A prime example that I'm reminding of comes from last week's Spider-Man/Human Torch #3. The two guys from Corona Motors who hired Spider-Man to create the Spider-Mobile? They're (quite intentionally) designed and modelled after Stan Lee and Roy Thomas. But Spidey's met Stan and did not for a second mistake Mr. Lombardo for him. Clearly, there are some subtle distinctions between Lombardo and Lee that don't appear to us, as we're looking at the simplified drawings of them. 

The one I used in the Star Trek discussion was Hercules. He was designed and drawn to resemble Steve Reeves -- who played Hercules in the movies back in the day. There's even a line of dialogue in the comics when the character is introduced that he looks kind of like Steve Reeves. He's not, though, and no one has mistaken one for the other. There are some subtle differences, again, that we're not seeing that allow MU characters to distinguish Reeves from Hercules. 

Same with Jack and God. The FF have all met Jack Kirby and know what he looks like. If they walked into God's office and saw Jack -- or someone who looks exactly like Jack -- sitting there, they would've made some reference to it. In fact, Sue even comments on God's appearance -- how he's shorter than she is -- without making reference to him looking like Jack. Once again, I think there's some subtle differences that we're not seeing that allow MU characters to differentiate between Jack Kirby and God. 

As an interesting side conversation, I did spend some time examing the dilenation of various levels of fiction between reality and Marvel Comics. If you think about it, there are in fact several layers of fiction that are generated... We have reality as we know it, first. Then, the first layer of fiction is the "Marvel Bullpen" notion that Stan created -- how all the writers and artists hung out around the Marvel offices, shooting the breeze and having a great time in general. Quesada carried through on this somewhat during the launch of the Sentry series a few years back, by creating an entirely fictional artist, Sam Rosen, who created him before Jack created the FF. Next, there's the fiction that is the Marvel Universe; the stories we read month after month. Included in that Universe are versions of Stan, Jack, etc. who are still alive and well and working for Marvel Comics. Within that Universe, the MU Stan Lee has created his own fictional Bullpen. And within THAT, there's the fictional comics generated within the Marvel Universe and have somewhat different depictions of our favorite heroes -- as shown in the Marvels Comics series of one shots from a few years ago.

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Posted: 03 Apr 2005 10:41 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
And within THAT, there's the fictional comics generated within the Marvel Universe and have somewhat different depictions of our favorite heroes -- as shown in the Marvels Comics series of one shots from a few years ago. 
<<<

Going slightly off topic, but I'm having trouble figuring this out. I know that just a few years back, Marvel put out these series of one shots which show what comic books are like in the Marvel universe. I never picked up the one shots, but I think that's what Sean's referring to here. I remember these one-shots gave skewed perspective on heroes in the Marvel Universe, (Spider-man was presented as somewhat of a monster as I recall). But my question is: these presentations differ from what we've seen in She-Hulk vol. 3. In that series, (and in others I think), it's been shown that comics published in the Marvel universe reflect exactly what happened in the Marvel universe. So which is the truth? Are comics in the Marvel universe exactly like what we get, or are they showing alternate depictions of our heroes, as shown in those one shots?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 03 Apr 2005 11:16 pm    
By Antonio Gavio

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
And within THAT, there's the fictional comics generated within the Marvel Universe and have somewhat different depictions of our favorite heroes -- as shown in the Marvels Comics series of one shots from a few years ago. 
<<<

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
But my question is: these presentations differ from what we've seen in She-Hulk vol. 3. In that series, (and in others I think), it's been shown that comics published in the Marvel universe reflect exactly what happened in the Marvel universe. So which is the truth? Are comics in the Marvel universe exactly like what we get, or are they showing alternate depictions of our heroes, as shown in those one shots? 
<<<

In our real world Marvel publishes alternate versions of their characters like the Ultimate or Marvel Age lines. I would say those one shot comics generated within the Marvel Universe are alternate versions of the real stuff, which is the comics depicted in the She-Hulk series.

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 05:44 am    
By Enda80

"Going slightly off topic, but I'm having trouble figuring this out. I know that just a few years back, Marvel put out these series of one shots which show what comic books are like in the Marvel universe. I never picked up the one shots, but I think that's what Sean's referring to here. I remember these one-shots gave skewed perspective on heroes in the Marvel Universe, (Spider-man was presented as somewhat of a monster as I recall). But my question is: these presentations differ from what we've seen in She-Hulk vol. 3. In that series, (and in others I think), it's been shown that comics published in the Marvel universe reflect exactly what happened in the Marvel universe. So which is the truth? Are comics in the Marvel universe exactly like what we get, or are they showing alternate depictions of our heroes, as shown in those one shots?" 

Hmmm......I would have to say that comices in the Marvel Universe could not be exactly as we get. After all, if they were, comic book pubishers would have to have access to declassified intelligence reports, know about events no civilian should know, know people's secret identities, etc. 
We would get into the absurdity of the Gospels; the authors of the Gosepls rountinely narrate things that no eyewitness could have seen (such as what Jesus was doing while he was alone and his apostles were asleep, Pilate's privileged conversations with the High Priest, a private message that Pilate's wife sends Pilate, what Jesus said to Pilate when he was alone with him, etc.*) As noted below, I would say that they can only rely on the occaisonal phone-in tip. 

I would write those She-Hulk references off as either errors or lucky guesses, or the occaisonal intellengce leek. If you want, here is info on the History of the Marvels one-shot detailing how the Earth-616 version of the company works. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/leestanl.htm 

Marvel Comics: History of the Marvels) - In fact, the first title devoted to one of the modern Marvels was produced during this period. Atlas released two issues of THE INCREDIBLE HULK, based on accounts provided by soldiers stationed in the American southwest of their encounters with an alternately gray or green rampaging creature. Buried among so many similar titles, the series folded without causing a ripple-it is only in retrospect that its true significance becomes apparent. 
(History of the Marvels) After a stock market reversal wiped out Reed Richards' capital (seen in FF I#9), the FF had to seek other revenue streams to continue to pay for their activities. The team made a deal with S-M Studios to produce a documentary about their exploits--only to discover that the studio was a front for their enemy, the recently-revived Sub-Mariner. Namor intended to use the pretext of the film to lure the adventurers into perilous situations, and thus destroy them. 
As part of the negotiation. S-M Studios also acquired the publishing rights to the adventures of the Fantastic Four. Perhaps remembering Timely's wartime adaptations of his own exploits, Namor, through his underlings at the studio, approached Stan Lee and Atlas about producing a comic book series about the famous quartet. Never slow when fortune smiled upon him, Lee quickly closed the deal, becoming the defacto spokesman for the superhuman community in the process. 
In the end, the Sub-Mariner's scheme was foiled, the movie was released, and the Fantastic Four's finanical standing returned to its previous healthy state. Upon learning of the conditions under which he'd been granted a publishing agreement, Lee offered to terminate the deal there and then, despite what it would do to Atlas' projected earnings. But the Fantastic Four liked Lee and his creative team. 
Johnny Storm owned ratty copies of CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS that Lee's chief artist, Jack Kirby, had illustrated decades before so the arrangement was allowed to stand, and to flourish. 

Lee also decided to do a title about the furtive Spider-Man. He ran an ad in the Daily Bugle and set up a hot line, and his secretary ended up taking calls from people who claimed to have seen Spider-Man, about what he was like. Daily Bugle publisher J. Jonah Jameson was outraged to find himself depicted in the new Spider-Man comic book, and quickly filed suit against Marvel. But the suit was dropped after Lee met with Jameson, and agreed not to use his name or likeness again. "They were really very similar in a lot of ways, and they got along famously" reported Flo Steinberg. From that point on,the fictitious Daily Clarion and its publisher T. T. Thomas were a fixture of the SPIDER-MAN magazine.

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 08:29 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Going slightly off topic, but I'm having trouble figuring this out. I know that just a few years back, Marvel put out these series of one shots which show what comic books are like in the Marvel universe. I never picked up the one shots, but I think that's what Sean's referring to here. I remember these one-shots gave skewed perspective on heroes in the Marvel Universe, (Spider-man was presented as somewhat of a monster as I recall).  
<<<

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
But my question is: these presentations differ from what we've seen in She-Hulk vol. 3. In that series, (and in others I think), it's been shown that comics published in the Marvel universe reflect exactly what happened in the Marvel universe. So which is the truth? Are comics in the Marvel universe exactly like what we get, or are they showing alternate depictions of our heroes, as shown in those one shots? 
<<<

This was explained by Tom Brevoort in that short, text-only one-shot that gave a history of Marvel Comics within the Marvel Universe. The upshot is that the authenticity/accuracy of each comic is dependent on how willing and open a hero/team is. The Fantastic Four has open agreements with Marvel to use their adventures more or less verbaitum, but Spider-Man has no such agreements (since he is trying to keep his identity a secret and all) and his stories are more ficticous in nature. So at one end, we have the FF, the Wasp, Yellowjacket and She-Hulk who are quite open with their personal lives; a middle ground for folks like Thor (who, at times, keeps his Don Blake or Sigurd Jarlson identity secret) and Captain America (who, while no longer maintaining a secret identity, undergoes the occassional classified and/or black ops type missions); and a mostly ficticous accounting of "undergound" heroes like Spidey, Daredevil and the X-Men. 

So, She-Hulk can use her own comics as legal documents, but not those based on Spider-Man or the X-Men.

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 10:17 am    
By Jim Smith

I think this thread is kinda getting off-track. 

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
Over the years, two characters named "stan" and "jack" have made a variety of apppearances in the Marvel comics. Most times they have had some sort of meta-comment about either characters or books (such as in UXM when they see Scott and Jean kiss, Stan comments that nothing like that ever happend when they were in charge of the book). 

now, given the FF's recent visit with "God", who looked a heckuva lot like Jack Kirby, wouldn't it serve to meld the listings for both jack and God? I mean, the intent was clearly that Jack was God (or God at least looked like Jack). 
<<<


Garbonzo's not asking whether the Fantastic Four should or shouldn't recognize that God resembles the Jack Kirby from FF 11. (On that we can't be sure--are the FF shocked that God looks like a comic book artist, or that God looks like a comic book artist they've met before?) He's asking whether God is Jack Kirby. 

I'd say no. Although the Marvel Universe's Lee & Kirby clearly know more about their surroundings than they should--a metaphysical awareness suggesting supernatural qualities--and although Jack/God claims to have a collaborator who is clearly designed to be Stan, I don't think that's enough to show that they're the same people. Even if we disregarded Sean's argument that Jack/God only resembles Kirby to us and not to the FF, we don't know that the form God takes when he meets the FF is his true form. If God had taken the form of J. Jonah Jameson, it wouldn't necessarily follow that all of JJJ appearances could be attributed to God--only that God had borrowed his form for one issue. 

As far as explaining the peculiarities of the MU's Stan and Jack...well, it's comics. Things like this aren't going to be explained. Establishing that these two fourth-wall breaking characters are God doesn't explain all the other Marvel writers and artists who've appeared in canon talking about the MU as a fictional creation--everybody from Chris Claremont to George Perez.

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 12:02 pm    
By ChastMastr

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
As far as explaining the peculiarities of the MU's Stan and Jack...well, it's comics. Things like this aren't going to be explained. Establishing that these two fourth-wall breaking characters are God doesn't explain all the other Marvel writers and artists who've appeared in canon talking about the MU as a fictional creation--everybody from Chris Claremont to George Perez. 
<<<

That's my own take on it. It's basically the same thing as "breaking the fourth wall" in a play or on various television shows ("But how did you know Roger Ramjet was in that shack?" "I looked ahead in the script!"). Despite the way they tried to explain She-Hulk's references to her writer as some kind of delusion (  ), I think it's probably best to regard such things as "off the record" and non-canonical. (I suppose in the FF series re Kirby as God, the "official" canon aspects of it would just be that they went to Heaven, in some way met the Supreme Being, got Ben back and Reed healed, without any specific "from now on, God looks like Jack Kirby" or even "like Galactus, God's appearance varies depending on the viewer" complete with stats in the next edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe (urk)... 

(And does that mean, therefore, that as per Defenders #100, that Daimon Hellstrom actually saw Jack Kirby in the end of it, exclaiming "How can this be?" but forgot it? What a can of worms that would be; no idea how they explained that Deity appearance later on (DeMatteis' story involved Mephisto/Satan actually turning out to be an aspect of God, apparently, because "suffering is as instructive as bliss" and all the apparent evil he did was really to help mankind grow toward enlightenment -- sort of a Buddhist take on it -- not sure if that was ever referred to again, but Daimon's knowledge of Mephisto's "other face" was erased minutes later, only with the knowledge that his father truly loved him), if they indeed ever did.) 

It was a shame that during the DC vs. Marvel series Animal Man and She-Hulk weren't seen chatting in one panel about "the way those writers are" or such ("Yeah, my guy was moody and British, but he really worked out everything in the end; how's yours?").  

David

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 03:34 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
This was explained by Tom Brevoort in that short, text-only one-shot that gave a history of Marvel Comics within the Marvel Universe. The upshot is that the authenticity/accuracy of each comic is dependent on how willing and open a hero/team is. The Fantastic Four has open agreements with Marvel to use their adventures more or less verbaitum, but Spider-Man has no such agreements (since he is trying to keep his identity a secret and all) and his stories are more ficticous in nature. So at one end, we have the FF, the Wasp, Yellowjacket and She-Hulk who are quite open with their personal lives; a middle ground for folks like Thor (who, at times, keeps his Don Blake or Sigurd Jarlson identity secret) and Captain America (who, while no longer maintaining a secret identity, undergoes the occassional classified and/or black ops type missions); and a mostly ficticous accounting of "undergound" heroes like Spidey, Daredevil and the X-Men. 

So, She-Hulk can use her own comics as legal documents, but not those based on Spider-Man or the X-Men. 
<<<

But wait, in She-Hulk vol. 3, Issue 3, Jennifer used the "Death Of Jean Grey/Pheonix" storyline in a court case. The Xmen are indeed underground characters, so how would there be comics published in the Marvel Universe depicting exactly what happened when Jean Grey/Pheonix died? (the first time)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 05:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Because it's just a comic book. And "She-Hulk" plays things for laughs. Roll with it.  

Back to the subject line: yes -- Jack Kirby is god. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 11:04 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Because it's just a comic book.  
>>>

Man, if we took that attitude with everything, there'd be no point for an MCP.  

Quote: 
>>>
Back to the subject line: yes -- Jack Kirby is god. 
<<<
 


I'm going to put my two cents on saying that Jack Kirby and God bear a strong resemblence, but are two different beings inside the Marvel Universe.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 11:36 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Our Jack Kirby is God. The MU Jack Kirby isn't. They look different, because our JK aged in real time, while the MU Jack Kirby aged in Marvel Time (and is probably still alive!).
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 05 Apr 2005 11:03 am    
By ChastMastr

But is this Jack the same cosmic being who appeared in Supreme?  

http://www.comicbooks.westumulka.com/supreme/newjack.html

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Posted: 05 Apr 2005 06:29 pm 
By Enda80

Sidebar; having Jack Kirby be the Biblical god would not be a compliment, since the Bible god killed all those Egyptian children despite the best efforts of the Sphinx to stop him. (Hah! This is where the Sphinx played the hero.) 

I did an Earth-597 speculative timeline on the whole bloody details. 

http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timeline597.html 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1184&highlight=earth597 

Scroll down for the improved google version.

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Posted: 05 Apr 2005 06:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You've really got a fixation on the Christian religion, don't you? 

For everyone's information: Jack Kirby was not only God, but also the Pope. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Apr 2005 08:09 pm    
By Enda80

Actually, the story of Moses fighting the Pharaoh's sorcerers (which, on Earth-616, including Anath Namut, the future Sphinx, though the letters page to Doctor Strange III#31 or #33 notes he was using the powers given to him by the Caretakers of Arcturus to simulate magic before he found the Ka stone) is not specifically Christian per se, since it is in the Hebrew Bible.

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Posted: 06 Apr 2005 07:04 am    
By jephyork
Director

I stand by my observation. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Apr 2005 02:52 pm    
By ChastMastr

Why am I thinking of that story in a Marvel Holiday Special in which Doc Samson tells the story of Hanukkah to young children in Hebrew School and then has to sort of "doctor it up" to make it interesting ("Antiochus IV was -- er -- a robot! Like Ultron!") and then the kids start coming up with things like the Human Torch being behind the burning bush of Moses and so on...  

David 
"Aren't Macabees little cookies?"

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Posted: 07 Apr 2005 09:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Upon a closer re-reading of the Bible, I have discovered that Jack Kirby died for our sins. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Apr 2005 04:43 am    
By Enda80

Funny thing is, we usually do not allow people to take another person's punishment. If someone's brother committed murder, we would not allow the innocent brother to serve the guilty brother's sentence, even if he offerered to.

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Posted: 08 Apr 2005 07:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

That is funny, Enda80. Funny indeed. 

Yes, funny is what that is. 


Jack Kirby, by the way, is up for sainthood. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Apr 2005 07:42 am    
By JLH

I have watched just about every episode of Lost, and I've seen no evidence of Matthew Fox's character being God. 

...Oh, wait. 

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Posted: 08 Apr 2005 03:33 pm    
By ChastMastr

I haven't ever seen Lost, but I do know that the name Matthew Fox is a "creation spirituality" theologian, so this could be deliberate on the part of the writers, whether he really is God or whether it's a deliberate red herring. 

Speaking of comics, wouldn't "The Red Herring" be a great name for a super-hero? 

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Posted: 08 Apr 2005 08:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This thread is sliding into Chat territory...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 May 2005 06:07 pm    
By garbonzo

So I have been thinking...THere is clearly an intent by the illustrator, and possibly the writer, in each of these occurences for the character to be based on JAck Kirby. The over-riding argument against all these appearances being the same person is that certain characters do not recognize Jack from location to location or appearance to appearance. Is it possible that we, the reader, are privy to a piece of information to which the charaters in the book are not? That information being the "True" appearance of God (i.e. God looks like Jack (or is it jack looks like God?)). This would be similar to the times that we (the reader) have seen "through" Tony Stark's helmet to reveal the man inside when it is clearly not visible to the characters in the book. 

In addition, how many times have the readers seen something that the characters have not? Invisibilty, magic spells...Wasn't the Beyonder invisible to those whom he did not want to see him? 

The reason I am coming back to this is that there is a clear intent to have Jack (and to a lesser extent, Stan) be something larger than an ordinary character in the MU. YOu don't see people placing John Byrne in the role of God eventhought he was "chosen" by the galactic powers to recount the adventures of the Fantastic Four.

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Posted: 05 May 2005 08:08 pm    
By shandrakor

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
But wait, in She-Hulk vol. 3, Issue 3, Jennifer used the "Death Of Jean Grey/Pheonix" storyline in a court case. The Xmen are indeed underground characters, so how would there be comics published in the Marvel Universe depicting exactly what happened when Jean Grey/Pheonix died? (the first time)... 
<<<


It's actually She-Hulk v3 #2, but it's not a problem anyway. Check out page 9p5. The comic he's waving around is FF #286, "Like a Phoenix." It's the story that deals with Jean getting pulled out of her cocoon and the big reveal that Phoenix and Jean are different entities - the exact issue that Jen Walters brings up in court later. 

Since the "The History of Marvels" one-shot establishes that the Fantastic Four comics are all based directly on interviews with the FF members, and Jen can vouch for the authenticity of the story, since she was a member of the FF at the time, everything seems compatible.

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Posted: 06 May 2005 08:16 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
So I have been thinking...THere is clearly an intent by the illustrator, and possibly the writer, in each of these occurences for the character to be based on JAck Kirby. The over-riding argument against all these appearances being the same person is that certain characters do not recognize Jack from location to location or appearance to appearance. Is it possible that we, the reader, are privy to a piece of information to which the charaters in the book are not? That information being the "True" appearance of God (i.e. God looks like Jack (or is it jack looks like God?)). This would be similar to the times that we (the reader) have seen "through" Tony Stark's helmet to reveal the man inside when it is clearly not visible to the characters in the book. 

In addition, how many times have the readers seen something that the characters have not? Invisibilty, magic spells...Wasn't the Beyonder invisible to those whom he did not want to see him? 

The reason I am coming back to this is that there is a clear intent to have Jack (and to a lesser extent, Stan) be something larger than an ordinary character in the MU. YOu don't see people placing John Byrne in the role of God eventhought he was "chosen" by the galactic powers to recount the adventures of the Fantastic Four. 
<<<

I fail to see your arguement here. In all the instances I'm aware of in which a character meets Stan and/or Jack -- that is, a character intended to be Stan or Jack -- the character recognizes them as such or, if it's the first time they've met, they're introduced as comic creators Stan and Jack. 

That's not to say every character that resembles Stan and Jack are actually Stan and Jack and simply aren't recognized, though. I recall an recall an issue of Fantastic Four by Claremont and Larocca in which the Thing buys a hot dog from "Uncle Stan" the hot dog vendor. He's clearly drawn to look like Stan Lee, but why would Stan Lee be selling hot dogs on a street corner? He wouldn't. There's no indication that this hot dog vendor ever had anything to do with comic books, aside from looking like Stan Lee and having the same first name. It's an artistic homage to Stan, to be sure, but it's not supposed to be Stan. 

The issue I mentioned before with Stan Lee and Roy Thomas stand-ins? Same thing. They might look like Stan and Roy, but Spider-Man recognizes neither of them as such and they introduce themselves as Mr. Carter and Mr. Lombardo. 

Again, same thing with the Jack-as-God issue. I happen to have a copy of Waid's script for that story (available on my web site, here) and it never actually calls the character anything but "God." It never actually even mentions that he looks like Jack... 

Mark Waid wrote: 
>>>
PANEL THREE: THROUGH THE DOOR, WHAT THEY SEE: A SHORT, FIFTYISH MAN WITH A BRUSH CUT, PENCILING WHILE SITTING AT A DRAWING TABLE IN A SPACIOUS, SUNNY SUBURBAN-HOME STUDIO, CALIFORNIA LANDSCAPE OUTSIDE THE WINDOW. HES INTENT ON HIS DRAWING. 
<<<

... reading the script, it's clearly NOT Jack Kirby in the issue. 

I think you're confusing the notion of honoring the vast tapestry that Stan and Jack created almost by themselves with the characters of Stan and Jack. The comic book versions of Stan and Jack were comic book creators, as clearly and concisely established in Fantastic Four #10. We've seen both of them since then as comic book creators. There's been zero evidence that suggests that either character has God-like powers because the omniscient-type characters that look like Stan and Jack are clearly identified as characters who are not Stan and Jack.

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Posted: 06 May 2005 09:02 am    
By Somebody

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
I fail to see your arguement here. In all the instances I'm aware of in which a character meets Stan and/or Jack -- that is, a character intended to be Stan or Jack -- the character recognizes them as such or, if it's the first time they've met, they're introduced as comic creators Stan and Jack.  
<<<

I think he means that the F4 didn't see "God" as Jack.

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Posted: 06 May 2005 09:54 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
The reason I am coming back to this is that there is a clear intent to have Jack (and to a lesser extent, Stan) be something larger than an ordinary character in the MU.  
<<<


I think you're taking this stuff far, far too literally. It's a homage, and it falls squarely under the category of "artistic licence." The story of that issue is that the FF meet God (or at least a being claiming to be God). The fact that God appears as Jack Kirby is simply a joke; it can't be taken literally, any more than the stock depictions of Death imply that "she" is really a human woman in a cape. 

It also, of course, alludes to the fact that the Marvel Universe is a fictional universe, and if Reed ever does figure out how it all works, he'll inevitably realise that he's a fictional character. The same point crops up in MARVEL 1602, where a rather less literal Reed correctly speculates that the principles of fiction and storytelling are hardwired into the Marvel Universe, meaning that Ben can never be restored permanently to human form simply because it wouldn't be a very good story!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 May 2005 09:59 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
I think he means that the F4 didn't see "God" as Jack. 
<<<

Right. And that's exactly my point: Jack isn't God, even if you look back at the original script and the writer's intention, so there's no reason to try to force this Jack's-really-all-powerful-and-mystically-coercing-people-into-not-recognizing-him thing into what is simply a nice, little homage to the real person who created this sandbox. 

There is no "clear intent" of making the characters of Stan and Jack larger than what they were in real life. There are a series of metaphorical nods to them, sure, but that's all they are. They're just an artists' way of honoring the original creators. Nothing more.

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Thread 6

Posted: 06 May 2005 11:45 pm    Post subject: Spider Family Additions
By captamr

First, Harry Osborn is missing from the big wedding annual for Spider-Man. Hes at Peters bachelor party with Flash as well as in the final wedding scenes at the end of the annual with the rest of the family: 

OSBORN, HARRY 
PPTSS 119 
*ASM @ 21 
SM:PL 
PPTSS 130 

The Lizard is missing a FB for PPTSS 127 (pg. 9). The events portray the separation of the family unable to cope with the missing Dr. Connors during the first Secret War. This leads to an appearance of the Lizard in the misplaced PPTSS 130 before the kidnapping of his family by the Owl in #127. This leads to: 

LIZARD/ Dr. Curt Connors 
ASM 252 
*PPTSS 127  FB 
PPTSS 130 
PPTSS 127 

Since Billy and Martha Connors do not appear in PPTSS 130, do they need a FB listing immediately preceding their regular appearance in #127? The FB shows them leaving (new material) so: 

CONNORS, BILLY 
ASM 252 
*PPTSS 127 - FB 
PPTSS 127 

And likewise for mom: 

CONNORS, MARTHA 
ASM 252 
*PPTSS 127 - FB 
PPTSS 127 


Detective (or Sgt.) Tork shows up in PPTSS 128 but his subsequent appearance in #129 does not. Its interesting that this is another issue containing a FB, which immediately precedes the issue. #129 (pg. 4) continues in more detail, Torks appearance in #128 and completes the deductions of Stan Carter from #128: 

TORK, SGT. 
PPTSS 128 
*PPTSS 129  FB 
*PPTSS 129 
BP3 2 

And finally, Mary Jane shows up at Peters apartment at the conclusion of #129 to discuss the end of Peters relationship with Felicia Hardy: 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
WOSM 28 
*PPTSS 129 
ASM 290 


Until later,
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 7

Posted: 06 May 2005 09:49 pm    Post subject: The latest issue of Daredevil...
By Kevin W.
Director

In the latest issue of Daredevil, inside a flashback sequence, a thug says that another thug, (the father of the figure having the flashback) was responsible "years ago" for blowing up Matt Murdock's house. We are told that this thug did it at the request of the Kingpin, (at some point after the Kingpin found out that Matt Murdock was Daredevil). 

So the question is: has this scene been shown before? I know that it seems like Daredevil's house has been attacked a lot in the last few months, (Secret War #3, Wolverine #24, and several times in the pages of Bendis's Daredevil), but is this an actual event? Before Bendis's coming onto the title, was there a story arc or issue where Matt Murdock's house was blown up, and it was done at the order of the Kingpin? 

Or is this thug just making up stuff? Or is Bendis just inserting an event that's never been portrayed before now?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 07 May 2005 02:04 am    
By John Simons

This happened during the Frank Miller/Dave Mazzuchelli "Born Again" storyline. His home blew up at the end of the same issue that Kingpin first found out his secret ID, DD 227. 

If you are a fan of Daredevil by all means track down a copy of the tpb. It's absolutely amazing.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Thread 8

Posted: 07 May 2005 08:18 am    Post subject: X 58 - Cannonball
By Paul O'Brien
Director

We've got Cannonball listed as appearing in X 58, but I can't see him anywhere. This is the period when he and Iceman were undercover within the Graydon Creed campaign (under the staggeringly original pseudonyms of Drake Roberts and Samson Guthry). Iceman's there, tailing around after Creed, but I can't see Sam. 

Incidentally, Iceman's accompanied by a dark-haired woman aide who gets a speaking part and was presumably meant to be Carly Alvarez. If so, X 58 should be added to her listing as well.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 May 2005 08:57 am    
By garbonzo

On page 9, Panel 3, the "un-named dark haired woman" says: Don't worry about Mr. Creed, Sam. He didn't get this far being intimidated" 

Now, at first glance, this seems to contradict what we have seen in the issue. The character looks just like Bobby Drake, who has just appeared on panel talking to Creed. So, my first indication was to say, oops looks like someone screwed up the dialogue. 

But, if you look closer at the panel perspectives, on page 8, Trish is seen in the foreground, and Drake and Creed are seen to her left. There is an open chair to her left as well. When Creed enters the set it is natural to assume that he would sit in this chair, placing him between Bobby and Trish. 

Now, switch to page 9 with the dialogue in question. In panel 3, Trish's back is to the two people talking off-stage. So, that conversation (in page 9, panel 3) takes place on the opposite side of the stage from where Bobby Drake is standing. So, the fact that the person looks like Bobby Drake is probably an art error and can be written off as a trick of the stage lighting (unless someone else has a better idea).

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Posted: 07 May 2005 09:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

You're right - it's a colouring error. They ARE on the other side of the stage, but the colourist hasn't picked up on the fact that it's meant to be a different character. Thanks.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 9

Posted: 07 May 2005 01:21 pm    Post subject: Hammer
By ADMINISTRATOR

Is the Hammer who appears in the Maverick series the same Hammer who was originally a member of Six Pack? 


watching: mst3k

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Posted: 07 May 2005 02:04 pm    
By Ant-Man

No. 

Eisenhower Canty was the Hammer in the Six Pack 

Boris Lupov was the Hammer that appeared in the Maverick series (he was the partner of Sickle)

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Posted: 07 May 2005 02:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks. 


watching: cnn presents

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Thread 10

Posted: 02 May 2005 02:20 pm    Post subject: Scourge chronology problems
By Enda80

Captain America#318 and Amazing Spider-Man#278 present an interesting chronological problem. In Captain America#318, Firebrand shows Blue Streak a newspaper account of past Scourge killings, including that of the Wraith. In ASM#278, the Scourge in that issue is shown listening to the radio report of the news of the Bar With No Name murders...which including Firebrand as a victim. 

The letters page to #323 admitted the error. 

http://victoria.tc.ca/Recreation/Comics/sf14.html 

Anyway, the Radio announcement that the Scourge from #278 heard was different; he heard the correct number of victims, but Cap#319 shows that the police dissembled to the public so that Cap could masquerade as a survived Mirage to bait Scourge. Master Edition confirms that this was a different Scourge. 

So ASM might well be removed. 

SCOURGE 
IM 194 
........... 
CA 318 
CA 319 
CA 320 
CA 347 


http://victoria.tc.ca/Recreation/Comics/sf12.html 
Hey, another amusing bit of Scourge trivia; many of the deaths of Scourge's victims were not shown fully until they received entry in the Official Handbook Deluxe Edition, where new artwork was given. Anyone know of a way to document this. 

Captain America sets a trap, pretending that Mirage was still alive, and feeding false info to the press [The press announced the truth soon after; a different Scourge heard the correct body count]. 

Scourge's assailant, according to Marvel Universe Masters is the same person who killed the Wraith 


http://victoria.tc.ca/Recreation/Comics/sf15.html

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Posted: 07 May 2005 03:39 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.unfluffybunny.com/cripp12/33/th_scourgeback.jpg 

Scourge's Master Edition entry is available online. 

http://www.unfluffybunny.com/cripp12/ 

Actually, all or most of the Master Edition is available online. I find this helpful, as the ME was much less satisfying and much more expensive than past versions. 

That said, the Scourge entry was helpful in sorting out who did what. Per the entry, the following entries should appear: 

SCOURGE 
IM 194 
TG 24 
SWII 2 
T 358 
CA 311 
WCA2 3 
A 263 
TG 33 
FF 289 
ASM 276 
M/FAN 29 
CA 318 
CA 319 
CA 320 

This was the original Scourge, the one who did the bulk of the murders. As explained above, he was not the one in ASM 278. 


SCOURGE II/ 
ASM 278 
CA 351 
CA 358/2 
CA 359/2 
CA 360/2 
CA 361/2 
CA 362/2 
CA 363/2 
CA 364/2 

This was the one who killed the Wraith, killed a Watchdong imposter, and then tried to get the Power Broker. 


SCOURGE III 
CA 347 
CA 350 
CA 394 

This was per the ME a rogue Scourge who went over to the Red Skull. He slew Albert Malik, and then was eliminated when his usefulness ran out. 

SCOURGE IV 
CA 364/2 
USA 1 
USA 2 
USA 3 
USA 4 

This one killes Scourge II when failed.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 04 May 2005 05:40 pm    Post subject: Alpha Flight #121
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm looking for help identifying some of the villains in the auction scene on page 13. I can name: 

Jack O'Lantern, Klaw, Grey Gargoyle, [AIM], Deathwatch, Mentallo (?, or Fixer?...I always get those mixed up), Stilt-Man, Mandrill, Taskmaster, Dr. Octopus, Fenris, Beetle, Constrictor, unknown, Vapor(?), Arcade, Caliber, Controller, Living Laser, Cobra, unknown, Ringmaster, [HYDRA], Mysterio, [SECRET EMPIRE?]. 

watching: nypd blue

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Posted: 04 May 2005 08:40 pm    
By Arthur
Director

Trapster beside Constrictor and Vector (not Vapor) next to him.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2005 09:04 pm    
By Ross

It's times like these I'm glad I keep my OHOTMU by my computer. 

1) Mentallo (?, or Fixer?...I always get those mixed up) 

It's Fixer. (I get them mixed up too.) 

2) Beetle, Constrictor, unknown 

I think it's the Trapster. 

3) Vapor(?) 

Close - it's Vector. 

4) Living Laser, Cobra, unknown 

Pretty sure it's Plantman.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2005 09:13 pm    
By Eric J. Lawrence

I was just going to suggest the guy in the back could be Attuma, but Plantman seems right.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2005 10:59 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ross wrote: 
>>>
3) Vapor(?) 

Close - it's Vector. 
<<< 


Drat. I didn't mean Vapor, of course. I meant to suggest Vector, but like Fixer and Mentallo, I confuse Vector and X-Ray, and only leaned toward Vector because of the V-shape on his forehead. 

Thanks. 


watching: crossing jordan

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2005 11:34 pm 
By SeanCurtin

The guy in the back looks more like Attuma than Plantman to me. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2005 11:08 am    
By Ross

Well, Attuma doesn't fit in with this bunch the way Plantman does. Everyone else could be described as a "costumed super-villain". Unless things have changed recently, Attuma is an Atlantean warlord, not a bank-robbing criminal. 

Here are scans of the two characters from the OHOTMU - headshots only, since that's all you can see of the guy in question. Judge for yourself. 

The guy in question: 
 

Attuma: 
 

Plantman: 
 

Not a perfect match, but I'd still say it's more likely to be Plantman than Attuma.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 May 2005 11:25 am    
By jannepie

I believe one of them is Blackout II and not Deathwatch.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 May 2005 08:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

To sum up with my own conclusions, we have: 

Jack O'Lantern, Klaw, Grey Gargoyle, AIM agent, Blackout II, Fixer II, Stilt-Man, Mandrill, Taskmaster, Dr. Octopus, Fenris Twins, Beetle, Constrictor, Trapster, Vector, Arcade, Caliber, Controller, Living Laser, Cobra, Plantman, Ringmaster, HYDRA agents, Mysterio, Secret Empire agent. 

Does this appear to be correct?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 12

Posted: 07 May 2005 08:52 pm    Post subject: Fu Manchu fb's; a few missed
By Enda80

FU MANCHU 
**MOKF 124-FB 
**MOKF 48-FB 
**MOKF 100-FB 
**MOKF 81-FB-BTS 
SM/E 15-FB 
SM/E 16-FB 
MOKF 19-FB 
..........

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 06 May 2005 10:08 pm    Post subject: New X-Men #13 vs. Alpha Flight v3
By jephyork
Director

The latest issue of New X-Men, which I paged through at the store, was a joy for me: I love issues like this, that take place in-between scenes from another book and actually repeat some scenes verbatim. They're so much fun to integrate.  

(Too bad I don't actually OWN any of the issues in question ... oh well, I'll have my fun eventually.) 

Anyway, the end of the issue is Northstar's funeral, and in addition to the many X-Men that cameo, Sasquatch shows up to pay his respects. In addition, there's a throwaway line that the X-Men tried to locate Aurora, but failed. 

So, my question is: does anyone think that this issue likely occurs before the recent Alpha Flight v3 series? 

In Alpha Flight v3 #12, a duplicate Alpha Flight -- including a duplicate Northstar and Aurora -- are pulled from the past and deposited in the present. At the issue's end, it's said that that team remains functioning as Alpha Flight in the present. 

If Sasquatch knew that there was another Northstar running around the Marvel Universe, might he have acted differently at Northstar's funeral? 

If this old Alpha Flight was operating publicly, don't you think the X-Men: 

(a) would have had an easier time contacting "Aurora" (albiet the wrong one, but how would they have known that?) 

(b) would, in trying to make contact, have learned of the duplicate Northstar? 

It seems like things flow better if Northstar is killed before Northstar II shows up. The entire AF3 series occurs in the span of less than a week, and doesn't seem chronologically tied to anything else ... so is it plausible that it could occur, in its entirety, after NXM #13 and W3 #20-26? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2005 11:15 pm    
By shandrakor

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If Sasquatch knew that there was another Northstar running around the Marvel Universe, might he have acted differently at Northstar's funeral? 
<<<

I can't speak to most of your questions, but I do have a response to this. Even if Northstar II is the real thing just pulled out of the past, from Sasquatch's perspective, this is Some Other Guy who popped out of Somewhere Else. 

The Northstar who died is his good friend, a guy he worked with for years, and even if he's going to live on in a matter of speaking, Sasquatch is still going to pay his respects to the "real" Northstar. 

Here's a question in return: if Northstar had recently been killed, and Sasquatch had been grieving at his funeral, would that have affected his reaction to the "new" Northstar? I would think that seeing his recently killed friend "resurrected" would almost certainly have provoked something more of a reaction than I expect was presented in a comedy book like AF3. 

Just my $0.02

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2005 11:46 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't think we really SAW Sasquatch's reaction to Northstar II. They pretty much skipped directly to an extended epilogue. 

I hear what you're saying about Sasquatch's grieving, regardless of whether or not a duplicate exists -- but you'd think that would be a piece of information that he'd pass on to the X-Men. You'd think it would be SOMEthing SOMEone might mention. "Well, grieving kids, he's still alive after a fashion..." 

They were hiding the fact that Northstar's body had been taken by Hydra, though, so they might have also been hiding the existence of the duplicate from the kids -- but in that case, wouldn't they worry that a student might someday catch Alpha Flight in action on C-Span, spot Northstar II and freak out? 

Dunno, man. I think everything reads more smoothly if Northstar I dies before Northstar II arrives ... but we don't know how Northstar's resurrection will play out in W3 #26-31. For all we know, the wrap-up to that story could throw another wrench into the works. 

Just my musing out loud, I guess... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 May 2005 11:21 am    
By jannepie

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Anyway, the end of the issue is Northstar's funeral, and in addition to the many X-Men that cameo, Sasquatch shows up to pay his respects. In addition, there's a throwaway line that the X-Men tried to locate Aurora, but failed. 

If Sasquatch knew that there was another Northstar running around the Marvel Universe, might he have acted differently at Northstar's funeral? 

If this old Alpha Flight was operating publicly, don't you think the X-Men: 

(a) would have had an easier time contacting "Aurora" (albiet the wrong one, but how would they have known that?) 

(b) would, in trying to make contact, have learned of the duplicate Northstar?  
<<<

I think that it's still easier to have Alpha Flight (vol. 3) before the death of Northstar I. Sure, Sasqucth might have mentioned about the another Northstar and the X-Men could have contacted the wrong Aurora and I'm sure they did BUT I'm sure it happened there somewhere behind the scenes. 

It wouldn't be accessible or necessary to mention those (I personally don't want to look back on the mess in the end of AF vol. 3) so it's obvious those things weren't mentioned. 

There was only Sasquatch, right? If the rest of the real Alpha Flight were still on Earth, wouldn't they come to Northstar's memorial?

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 May 2005 12:25 pm
By jephyork
Director

Oh, good point! I was thinking that, if this was before AF3 #1, they'd be missing ... but they weren't missing for very long before Sasquatch set out to find them. 

Yeah, the original Alpha Flight's absence is probably a much better clue than the absence of any dialogue about Northsta II or Aurora II. Thanks! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 May 2005 12:24 am    
By jannepie

You're welcome! I'm glad to help, this site is my bible.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 09 May 2005 03:09 am    Post subject: Fandral Note; as Robin Hood he appeared in
By Enda80

FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN]/"ROBIN HOOD" 
T@ 5 
T 401 
{JIM 119/2} 
JIM 122/2 
JIM 124/2 
JIM 125/2 
T 126/2 
T 127/2 
T 128/2 
T 129/2 
T 130/2 
T 131/2 
T 132/2 
T 133/2 
T 134/2 
T 135/2 
T 136/2 
T 137/2 
T 138/2 
T 139/2 
T 140/2 
T 141/2 
T 142/2 
T 143/2 
T 144/2 
T 145/2 
T 404/2 
T 405/2 
T 406/2 
T@ 14/4 
T 401 
TS 18/2-FB 
**HULK2 284 
TS 18/2-FB 
T 323 

Robin Hood appears in Hulk#284 in a time travel story, in one panel of page 13. Since Thunderstrike#18/2 establishes that Fandral was Robin Hood, this counts as appearance of him.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2005 08:03 am    
By jephyork
Director

Any reason you copied his entire chronology up to that point? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 08 May 2005 01:52 pm    Post subject: Cap Chronology correction
By Enda80

A 213-FB 
TOS 72/2-FB 
TOS 79/2-FB 
H2 284 
CA:SL2 12-FB 
CA COMICS 78 this should be cut out, since that would actually feature the 1950's Cap 
CA@ 13-FB 
CA:SL2 7 
CA:SL2 12-FB 
CA:SL2 12-FB 
CA:SL2 12-FB 
A 56-FB 
CA:SL2 12-FB 
A 56-FB 
{A 4-FB}

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2005 08:04 am    
By jehpyork
Director

Any reason you copied huge sections of his chronology before and after that point? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 09 May 2005 08:41 am    Post subject: NEW WARRIORS additions
By RLG

NIGHT THRASHER/DWAYNE TAYLOR 
NT2 14-FB 
**NO2 1-FB (11p3) - Stalking Rich on the rooftop minutes before NW 1. 
NW 1 

NOVA/RICHARD RIDER 
NW@ 1/7-FB (2p4) - Teleports back to Earth from Xandar. 
** NO2 1-FB (10p3) - Reunited with his family after his stint on Xandar. 
** NO2 1-FB (11p1) - Attends his (would-be) high school graduation. 
NW@ 1/7-FB (2p5) - Walks the streets aimlessly; all his "friends had moved on." 
** NO2 1-FB (11p2-p3) - Flipping burgers, and then being stalked by Night Thrasher. 
NW 1 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
In NW@ 1/7, Nova wears his blue & yellow costume, which was given to him in NW 14. Therefore, NW@ 1/7 should be moved to one of two possible spots in his chronology. 

XF@ 6 
NW@ 1/7 (old placement) 
NW 13 

NW 14 
**NW@ 1/7 (new placement #1) 
ASM 351-FB 

---or--- 

ASM 358 
**NW@ 1/7 (new placement #2) 
NW 15 


RIDER, CHARLES 
NO 22 
**NO2 1-FB (10p3) 
NW 3 

RIDER, GLORIA 
NO 22 
**NO2 1-FB (10p3) 
NW@ 1/7 -BTS 

RIDER, ROBERT "ROBBIE" 
NO 23 
**NO2 1-FB (10p3) 
NW 7 

SPITFIRE/LADY JAQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON 
N 27 
**NW 35 (16-17) - She is with Namorita in the night club. Namorita (drunkenly) states to 'Jackie,' "I know shou're [you're] old, even though shou [you] look sho [so] young..." (17p1) 
** NW 36 (7p3-8p3) - 'Jackie' calls a very hung-over Namorita. No actual appearance, but voice her balloons do appear via the telephone. 
X:HC 3 

JZEMLICO, WARDEN 
NW 36 
**NW 42 (11) - Justice (Vance) even refers to him by name. 
TB `97-FB 

MORGAN, DR. JERROLD "JERRY' 
M/CP 97/4 
** NW 36 (5p6) - Standing behind the Mad-Thinker's right shoulder in the Vault. 
DEF2 5 


And finally, the omission I'm most proud of finding..... 

In NW 35 (2p1) the Killer Shrike reveals Cardinal's first name as "Joshua." Therefore, his entry should be modified to: 

CARDINAL/JOSHUA CLEMENDON

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2005 11:57 am    
By BobMM

RLG wrote: 
>>>
And finally, the omission I'm most proud of finding..... 

In NW 35 (2p1) the Killer Shrike reveals Cardinal's first name as "Joshua." Therefore, his entry should be modified to: 

CARDINAL/JOSHUA CLEMENDON 
<<<


It's actually DONALD JOSHUA CLENDENON (note the spelling of the last name), as reported in THUNDERBOLTS v1 #67. 

Sorry if I'm raining on your parade. 

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 11 May 2005 08:44 pm    Post subject: Captain America Annual 6 question
By Enda80

Did the Invaders or the All-Winners Squad also appear in this issue? 

http://web.archive.org/web/20030224180228/www.vortex.bridgwater.ac.uk/mtlg/captainamericaii.htm 

Captain America Annual #6 (in June 1945 alongside the last line-up of the Invaders on a mission in Japan to destroy a solar-powered prototype tank, shot at by tank and became unconcious)

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2005 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

CA@ 6 includes a flashback that takes place in June 1945. Captain America II, Bucky II, Sub-Mariner, Human Torch I, Toro, Miss America, and Whizzer I appear in this flashback.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 13 May 2005 10:41 am    Post subject: New site for chronologies - Chronology Centrl
By jimmyflowers

Hi, 

I've been a longtime fan of chronologies, and I love the MCP! 

Over the years, I've posted my MC2 and Ultimate chronologies here on the MCP boards. 

Well, I've finally put together a site for all the chronologies I've put together over the years, including ones for Marvel teams, sci-fi films, books, anime, and other stuff. The site is called Chronology Central. 

I put it together in a wiki format so that users could edit and add to the site. So I hope you all check it out and contribute your additions/corrections. 

Here's the URL 
http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/chronology_central/chronology_central.cfm 

Hope to see you all there! 

-Jimmy

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:11 pm    Post subject: Memorial service attendees
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This week's comics present two memorial scenes -- one in HERCULES #1 and one in NEW INVADERS #9. And once again, Marvel presents us with crowd scenes in which we need to discern the identities of those present. 

Let's take NEW INVADERS #9 first. On pages 14-15, we see a spread featuring, from left to right: 

Human Torch II, Thing, big woman (can't be Wasp, can it?), Mr. Fantastic, Spider-Man, Invisible Woman, guy with dark glasses (Matt Murdock?), Red Raven, Nia, Blue Shield, guy with blue costume/red highlights/white face emblem, Fin, guy with face obscured, Sub-Mariner, Blazing Skull, U.S.Agent, Union Jack III, Spitfire, Captain America, guy with spikey helmet 

Secondly, there's page 7, panel 1 of HERCULES #1. I posted this first in the CHARACTER WATCH forum, but it bears repeating here. Going back to front left side, then back to front right side we have: 

Cyclops, Spider-Man, Moon Knight, blond person, Sub-Mariner, Silver Surfer, Daredevil, Wolverine, Spider-Woman I, Darkhawk, Warbird, Thing, Invisible Woman, Mr. Fantastic, Nick Fury, Wonder Man, Stingray, Black Panther, YJ? or Black Knight?, Tigra, Captain America, Iron Man, Beast 

Can anyone help out with the mystery folks?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:46 am    
By Ant-Man

That's Blue Diamond, not Blue Shield in Invaders #9

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:21 am    
By jephyork
Director

Who's "Nia"? You didn't possibly mean to type "Nita" (Namorita), did you? I'd been wondering if she'd pop up in that book... 

Also, I know it's spoiler country, but who died in NA #9? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:34 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ant-Man said: 
>>>
That's Blue Diamond, not Blue Shield in Invaders #9 
<<<

Thanks, A-M. That's who I meant to say, but it didn't come out right. 


Quote: 
>>>
Who's "Nia"? You didn't possibly mean to type "Nita" (Namorita), did you? I'd been wondering if she'd pop up in that book...  
<<<


No, it's not Namorita. Nia (perhaps pronounced "NYE-A" rather than "NEE-A"?) has been a regular character in NEW INVADERS. Introduced in issue #2, Nia is a blue-skinned Atlantean, the wife of Admiral Peter Noble (aka the Fin). Before appearing in NEW INVADERS, Peter and Nia spent "half a century playing King and Queen of Neptunia." Nia's mother was nearly named in issue #2 -- "Lady L--", who is someone Jim Hammond once knew. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, I know it's spoiler country, but who died in NA #9?  
<<<

I assume you meant INV3 9. Look back over the list of attendees and figure out which instrumental character in the history of the Invaders is missing.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:29 am    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I assume you meant INV3 9. Look back over the list of attendees and figure out which instrumental character in the history of the Invaders is missing. 
<<<

Him *again*? 

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:47 am    
By jephyork
Director

...Actually, I meant to type "NI #9", but I guess that wouldn't be right either, huh? Feh. Feh to calling New Avengers "A4" and New Invaders "INV3". Feh I say. 

I'm also not too big on my Invaders history, but I guess I doped it out ... thanks. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:06 pm    
By Ant-Man

Jeph, I think that calling it NI would be acceptable. 
The title was Invaders in the indicia for issues 0 and 1, but it's been New Invaders for issues 2 through 9

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:36 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
Jeph, I think that calling it NI would be acceptable. 
<<<

Call it whatever you want. You could call it Q7B3, and it wouldn't bother me. But the purpose behind using abbreviations is to communicate succinctly. If you use a "non-standard" abbreviation, you run the risk of not properly communicating your idea, and having to post a second time, in order to explain the first post. 


Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
The title was Invaders in the indicia for issues 0 and 1, but it's been New Invaders for issues 2 through 9 
<<<

True; but the indicia has never been an overriding factor in choosing abbreviations. 


watching: supervolcano

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:52 pm    
By Ant-Man

Sorry about that. 
I meant that within the context of this discussion we could probably follow his "NI" reference. 
I wasn't referring to any 'official' MCP abbreviations.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, I think I've figured out the identity of one person on the unknown list. The blond person behind Daredevil's right shoulder in HERCULES #1 must be Quasar. 

I've been trying to determine just what's going on with this memorial service in HERCULES #1 and just how soon after A 503 this is likely to occur. Clues seem to be conflicting. 

1) The caskets. What's up with them? My guess is that at least three of those caskets are empty and purely ceremonial. Jack of Hearts, Ant-Man, and Hawkeye were blown to smithereens. There wouldn't be enough of a body left to put into a casket. That having been said, I figure that what we're seeing here is a memorial service, not a traditional funeral/burial. You'd expect the timing of the latter to be within a week of the deaths, but the timing of a memorial service is a bit more flexible. 

2) So how about the fourth casket -- that of the Vision? He's the only one with enough body left to be placed in a casket. If his body is indeed in that one casket, this scene should occur after the flashback in YOUNG AVENGERS #2 in which young Kang (soon to be Iron Lad) discovers the Vision's torn-up body in a storage room at Stark Industries and downloads his operating system.* According to YA 2, the scene with Kang/Iron Lad occurs after "the Avengers had disbanded." If this is technically true (and not just a reflection the premature news report in GLA 1-FB), then YA 2-FB, and thus the memorial service in HERC 1-FB, should occur after the formal disbanding in A:FINALE. And A:FINALE is supposed to occur "three months" after A 503. Decomposition is not necessarily an issue with the Vision's android body, so he could be in that casket months after his death. 
*I thought the way the Vision's body was handled was pretty reprehensible -- just tossed in a storage room like so much used equipment. If he is indeed interred after the service in HERC 1-FB, the delay of months would be consistent with this shabby treatment. What's wrong with the Avengers anyway? First they let Magneto (who as far as they know destroyed Manhattan) just take Wanda away without a fight, and now this. Bah! Maybe that bad mojo of Wanda's lingered a while. 

3) The Beast is at the memorial service in his Reload (blech) costume. Recall that he was in his Morrison leathers in A 503. So enough time would need to pass between A 503 and HERC 1-FB for the first story arc in ASTONX3 to wrap up. Beast appears in A:FINALE in the Reload costume, and if HERC 1-FB indeed occurs after A:FINALE, that's no problem. 

4) The Wasp is nowhere to be found at the memorial service in HERC 1-FB. This doesn't necessarily help with placement, though. You might argue that the Wasp is still hospitalized or is traveling abroad and couldn't make it; that would place HERC 1-FB before A:FINALE. But you might also argue that Wasp has gone to England with Hank as they noted they would do "in a month" in A:FINALE. It's not clear that Hank is at the memorial service either. I'd think Pym would attend the service if he were still in town, especially given that his successor as Ant-Man is one of those memorialized, not to mention Clint and Vizh, who go way back with Hank and Jan. Instead we get Logan and Jessica Drew at the service?? 

5) She-Hulk isn't at the service either, as far as we can see. Her time off-world is established as occurring before Disassembled, so that can't be the excuse. Jennifer quit the Avengers in A:FINALE. If HERC 1-FB indeed occurs after A:FINALE, then perhaps Jennifer felt she couldn't handle the event. 

6) Hercules shows up at the service, distraught over the death of Thor. This raises a few points. First, it may be best to place Herc here after his appearance in SHE-HULK v3 #9 (22), in which he's his happy-go-lucky self. 

7) Second, Hercules has heard about Thor's death in T2 85 (not sure how -- in STORMBREAKER maybe?). That places HERC 1-FB after T2 85, which itself is at the end of a saga (T2 80-85) that takes a long time to play out. "Two months" elapse just between pages 5 and 6 of T2 82. This may support a late placement for the memorial service. 

8) Of course, we then have the inevitable temporal contradiction. The Avengers don't know about Thor's death in HERC 1-FB. Iron Man states that Thor's "been gone a few weeks, but that doesn't mean..." As far as we know, Shellhead last saw Thor in T2 81, when Thor refused the Avengers' help in dealing with the whole Ragnarok deal. Thor then spent all his time off earth so there wouldn't have been an opportunity for another meeting. So what is it -- "a few weeks" or "months" since Thor was seen? And that last meeting was hardly a social visit; when Iron Man and Cap last saw Thor, he was embarking on a grand and dangerous adventure. Yet in HERC 1-FB Tony doesn't believe there's a reason to think Thor may be dead. 

9) Three of the Fantastic Four are at the memorial service. This should place the scene after FF 517, the Halloween issue in which the FF are unsure of what's happening with the Avengers. So HERC 1-FB is likely after FF 524, given the continuity of the FF storyline. This clue doesn't dictate a placement before or after A:FINALE. But my own analysis puts FF 517-524 more than a month after A 503 and argues for a placement of the service quite some time after the deaths. 

10) The memorial service occurs in a flashback before the main story in HERC 1. In that story, Captain America holds a press conference to present the future site of Avengers Memorial Park (hardly a new concept). We see the silhouette of Avengers Mansion, the Mansion's front gate, and the still-damaged property walls. Cap unveils a statue of the original Avengers in front of the gate. This clearly places HERC 1 after A:FINALE, in which no such statue appears and in which Stark announces he intends to keep the property as is. In this week's YOUNG AVENGERS #3, Stark looks around the decrepit mansion and syays, "will you look at this place?" I suspect Tony changes his mind after this and decides on the park. I'd place HERC 1 after the current YA storyline. (And since Herc resolves to restart the Avengers himself in HERC 1, the HERC storyline should occur before NEW AVENGERS #1.) Unfortunately, we don't know how how much time elapses between HERC 1-FB and HERC 1. 

I'm inclined to place the memorial service scene months after Disassembled (despite Iron Man's "few weeks" comment about Thor), on an occasion that would be suitable for such a service in a situation in which traditional funerals/burials did not occur. Thanksgiving -- giving thanks for the lives of the fallen Avengers? New Year's -- burying the past? 

Opinions?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:31 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Nia's mother was nearly named in issue #2 -- "Lady L--", who is someone Jim Hammond once knew. 
<<<

According to the OHOTMU: Golden Age 2004, her mother is the Invaders foe Lady Lotus. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:30 am    
By jephyork
Director

Why would they bury the Vision anyway? He's not going to decompose ... I was always under the assumption that he was being stored at Stark's for an eventual attempt at rebuilding. 

As for: 

Quote: 
>>>
3) The Beast is at the memorial service in his Reload (blech) costume. Recall that he was in his Morrison leathers in A 503. So enough time would need to pass between A 503 and HERC 1-FB for the first story arc in ASTONX3 to wrap up. 
<<<

Not necessarily true. Remember that we decided that, although the Beast's new costume is first seen on-panel at the end of ASTONX3 #1, there's a large gap during p.18 where all sorts of other books (like "Disassembled") occur -- and the Beast could have worn his ReLoad costume for the first time in that gap. 

His appearing in his ReLoad outfit here doesn't prove anything more than that this story takes place after A #503. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:40 am    
By loki

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
1) The caskets. What's up with them? My guess is that at least three of those caskets are empty and purely ceremonial. Jack of Hearts, Ant-Man, and Hawkeye were blown to smithereens. There wouldn't be enough of a body left to put into a casket. That having been said, I figure that what we're seeing here is a memorial service, not a traditional funeral/burial. You'd expect the timing of the latter to be within a week of the deaths, but the timing of a memorial service is a bit more flexible. 

2) So how about the fourth casket -- that of the Vision? He's the only one with enough body left to be placed in a casket. If his body is indeed in that one casket, this scene should occur after the flashback in YOUNG AVENGERS #2 in which young Kang (soon to be Iron Lad) discovers the Vision's torn-up body in a storage room at Stark Industries and downloads his operating system.* According to YA 2, the scene with Kang/Iron Lad occurs after "the Avengers had disbanded." If this is technically true (and not just a reflection the premature news report in GLA 1-FB), then YA 2-FB, and thus the memorial service in HERC 1-FB, should occur after the formal disbanding in A:FINALE. And A:FINALE is supposed to occur "three months" after A 503. Decomposition is not necessarily an issue with the Vision's android body, so he could be in that casket months after his death. 
<<<

I think all four caskets were ceremonial - the Vision's remains were never in there either. Stark may, or may not, have informed the others that he was taking the remains away in the hopes of rebuilding him. First, why tell too many others and get their hopes up, in case the Vision couldn't be saved? Second, you couldn't really hold a service for the other three, and not include the Vision. If he can't be saved immediately he might be stored in the hope of technology becoming available one day which could revive him - but the service is as much for those grieving as for the actual dead. You don't want to be calling everyone a year or two (or twenty) down the line to say "Look, I've finally given up hope. Let's have a service for him now." 


Quote: 
>>>
*I thought the way the Vision's body was handled was pretty reprehensible -- just tossed in a storage room like so much used equipment.  
<<<

I don't think we was "just tossed" there - I think he was crated away while Stark first tried to undo the damage he'd done to his company with his drunken outburst at the UN and subsequent sacking from Government Office (work on maybe reviving a dead android who isn't going to get any deader versus saving a company and all the livelihoods of those employed by it; I know which one I'd do first). If you look at the picture in YA #3, it looks (to me at least) like Iron Lad opened the crate he was in, and the remains fell out onto the floor.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:40 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
2) So how about the fourth casket -- that of the Vision? He's the only one with enough body left to be placed in a casket. If his body is indeed in that one casket, this scene should occur after the flashback in YOUNG AVENGERS #2 in which young Kang (soon to be Iron Lad) discovers the Vision's torn-up body in a storage room at Stark Industries and downloads his operating system.* According to YA 2, the scene with Kang/Iron Lad occurs after "the Avengers had disbanded." If this is technically true (and not just a reflection the premature news report in GLA 1-FB), then YA 2-FB, and thus the memorial service in HERC 1-FB, should occur after the formal disbanding in A:FINALE. And A:FINALE is supposed to occur "three months" after A 503. Decomposition is not necessarily an issue with the Vision's android body, so he could be in that casket months after his death. 
<<<

Young Avengers' first arc is shortly before NA1, per the writer's comments in a Newsarama interview (not the one about the YA6 cover, an older one). 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
*I thought the way the Vision's body was handled was pretty reprehensible -- just tossed in a storage room like so much used equipment. If he is indeed interred after the service in HERC 1-FB, the delay of months would be consistent with this shabby treatment. What's wrong with the Avengers anyway? First they let Magneto (who as far as they know destroyed Manhattan) just take Wanda away without a fight, and now this. Bah! Maybe that bad mojo of Wanda's lingered a while. 
<<<

Got to agree - if IL can download this stuff, obviously Vision's mind is still around. Stark could at least have tried to hotwire the Vision's brain into a spare armour or something. 


Quote: 
>>>
7) Second, Hercules has heard about Thor's death in T2 85 (not sure how -- in STORMBREAKER maybe?). That places HERC 1-FB after T2 85, which itself is at the end of a saga (T2 80-85) that takes a long time to play out. "Two months" elapse just between pages 5 and 6 of T2 82. This may support a late placement for the memorial service. 
<<<

First, Asgardian time doesn't automatically correspond to Marvel Earth time (especially with Bifrost shattered). 

Secondly, I think Herc's meant to have found out because the Olympians were on good terms with the Asgardians, and someone from Olympus (Herc himself?) has tried to visit Asgard, or Zeus has tried to "phone in" (or something like that anyway), rather than BRB telling him or something. We might find out in flashback here, but if we don't I'd find that a safe assumption. 

He hasn't been seen in Stormbreaker. 


Quote: 
>>>
8) Of course, we then have the inevitable temporal contradiction. The Avengers don't know about Thor's death in HERC 1-FB. Iron Man states that Thor's "been gone a few weeks, but that doesn't mean..." As far as we know, Shellhead last saw Thor in T2 81, when Thor refused the Avengers' help in dealing with the whole Ragnarok deal. Thor then spent all his time off earth so there wouldn't have been an opportunity for another meeting. So what is it -- "a few weeks" or "months" since Thor was seen? And that last meeting was hardly a social visit; when Iron Man and Cap last saw Thor, he was embarking on a grand and dangerous adventure. Yet in HERC 1-FB Tony doesn't believe there's a reason to think Thor may be dead. 
<<<

Frell-up on Tieri's part, pure and simple. Maybe he hasn't read Ragnarok too closely or something. He's got a couple of message boards if you want to ask him directly.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:01 pm    
By PaxHouse

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
This week's comics present two memorial scenes -- one in HERCULES #1 and one in NEW INVADERS #9. And once again, Marvel presents us with crowd scenes in which we need to discern the identities of those present. 

Cyclops, Spider-Man, Moon Knight, blond person, Sub-Mariner, Silver Surfer, Daredevil, Wolverine, Spider-Woman I, Darkhawk, Warbird, Thing, Invisible Woman, Mr. Fantastic, Nick Fury, Wonder Man, Stingray, Black Panther, YJ? or Black Knight?, Tigra, Captain America, Iron Man, Beast 

Can anyone help out with the mystery folks? 
<<<


Now about DARKHAWK; even though he's in his "newer"/Second armored form {that debuted within His own series}, His appearance obviously falls between AVENGERS #503 {making him NOT a mystical "Construct" by Wanda} and RUNAWAYS [VOL II] #1....
_________________
PaxHouse.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 6:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Human Torch II, Thing, big woman (can't be Wasp, can it?), Mr. Fantastic, Spider-Man, Invisible Woman, guy with dark glasses (Matt Murdock?), Red Raven, Nia, Blue Shield, guy with blue costume/red highlights/white face emblem, Fin, guy with face obscured, Sub-Mariner, Blazing Skull, U.S.Agent, Union Jack III, Spitfire, Captain America, guy with spikey helmet 
<<<

I can only assume the big woman is meant to be the Wasp, since there's no other obvious candidate, she's got roughly the right hairstyle, and she's wearing black and yellow (from the look of it - the red-tinged sunset lighting makes it a little hard to tell). 

The guy with the blue costume, red highlights and white faceplate looks like Citizen V to me. 

The guy with the metal spikey helmet on the far right - could that be Iron Cross?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 09 Dec 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject: MK Spiderman #9-Flashbacks
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, this issue has some interesting flashbacks....I don't know what to make of them though. 

Pg. 13, Panel 2 features the Invaders, (Cap. America, Human Torch, and Namor) 

Pg. 13, Panel 3 features a bunch of superheroes that supposedly also existed in the Golden Age, (or possibly the Silver Age, or rather, the period before FF #1). Does anyone reckognize any of these figures? 

Pg. 13, Panel 5 features a supposed Golden Age villian, as does pg. 14, Panel 1...but I don't recognize any of the villians there either. 

Is this something that Mark Millar just came out with out of thin air?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Dec 2004 10:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Pg. 13, Panel 3 features a bunch of superheroes that supposedly also existed in the Golden Age, (or possibly the Silver Age, or rather, the period before FF #1). Does anyone reckognize any of these figures? 
<<<


I believe that's the original Angel at left. I figured the original Whizzer to be the one third from left, but then I took another look at his cowl; those aren't wings, they're...antennae? 


Quote: 
>>>
Pg. 13, Panel 5 features a supposed Golden Age villian, as does pg. 14, Panel 1...but I don't recognize any of the villians there either. 
<<<


There's a masked, caped, rotund Golden Age hero in that panel too. For some reason, the name Black Marvel comes to mind. (?)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Dec 2004 10:46 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Wait...pg. 13, panel 3: In the back of the group of heroes running towards the gangsters, the guy with the mustache, cape, and wings on his chest looks exactly like the super-hero from the Golden Age flashback in Daredevil #66, (who doesn't get named). 

And Daredevil #67 features another Golden Age superhero who calls himself the Defender, and he's not in the MCP, so I guess he's new? 

Are Bendis and Millar creating a whole new Golden Age here?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Dec 2004 10:50 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I believe that's the original Angel at left. I figured the original Whizzer to be the one third from left, but then I took another look at his cowl; those aren't wings, they're...antennae? 
<<<
 

Ah, I see...the original Angel...okay, works for me. And I guess they could be poorly drawn wings... 


Quote: 
>>>
There's a masked, caped, rotund Golden Age hero in that panel too. For some reason, the name Black Marvel comes to mind. (?) 
<<<

Are you talking about the guy swinging away? I thought that was the villian, (fleeing the scene of a crime). The figure tied up in the chair I took to be a prisoner he had, (the scene is ambiguous)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Dec 2004 10:53 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
And Daredevil #67 features another Golden Age superhero who calls himself the Defender, and he's not in the MCP, so I guess he's new? 
<<<

Don't assume that. Generally, the only Golden Age characters who are listed here are those who have also appeared in the modern era. 


watching: amora and erik

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Posted: 09 Dec 2004 11:03 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Don't assume that. Generally, the only Golden Age characters who are listed here are those who have also appeared in the modern era. 
<<<
 


Well, he get's killed within 3 pages of his appearance, so I figured he was a new guy created just so Bendis could kill him. And I thought that all Golden Age heroes have gone on to appear in comics published after FF#1? 

How many Golden Age heroes besides the "Big 3 Invaders" were there? 

Also, Page 14, Panel 1: One of those villians seated at the table has a face that looks somewhat like the Red Skull's....the yellow outfit kinda throws off the look though...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Dec 2004 11:45 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
How many Golden Age heroes besides the "Big 3 Invaders" were there? 
<<<

Quite a few, many of them only appeared a few times though. Jess Nevins started a web site cataloging them but it hasn't been updated in a little while, and I'm almost certain it's not complete. 

Say, anyone know what Jess has been up to lately? I haven't heard from him in a few years now.

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Posted: 10 Dec 2004 07:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Are you talking about the guy swinging away? I thought that was the villian, (fleeing the scene of a crime). The figure tied up in the chair I took to be a prisoner he had, (the scene is ambiguous)... 
<<<

Look closely. I believe that the person tied up is the same hooded villainess seen on page 14, panel 1. The guy swinging away is the hero who bound the villainess.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Dec 2004 10:03 am    
By lkseitz

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Say, anyone know what Jess [Nevins] has been up to lately? I haven't heard from him in a few years now. 
<<<

He posted one year ago on rec.arts.comics.misc saying he was still lurking (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.misc/msg/333d3312e05e2ee7?dmode=source).
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 10 Dec 2004 12:01 pm   
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jess is working on his book, Fantastic Victoriana. After that, he's going to be doing another book about early 20th century pulp heroes. Both of them are adapatations of his insanely comprehensive websites on the subject. He's also had a couple of companion volumes to League of Extraordinary Gentlemen published.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Dec 2004 02:25 pm    
By Arthur
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
And Daredevil #67 features another Golden Age superhero who calls himself the Defender, and he's not in the MCP, so I guess he's new? 
<<<


There was a DEFENDER who appeared in U.S.A. Comics #1 to at least #4 in 1941-1942.

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Posted: 10 Dec 2004 04:48 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I don't suppose you have a description or photo of him? If he matches the figure in Daredevil #67, then that's pretty impressive research on Bendis's part, (finding a shortly lived Golden Age hero, bringing him back, for the express purpose of killing him). 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 10 Dec 2004 05:35 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

After much hunting, I found a profile of the Defender at International Hero - and yes, the costume is correct! 

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/defendertimely.htm

He's a Captain America clone, created as a rushjob. Apparently, his adventures consist entirely of retouched Cap artwork!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 May 2005 12:22 pm    
By Enda80

The Golden Age Black Widow is the woman in the cape. Notice the W on the pendant she wears on her neck. 

She was in Marvels#1. 

(Marvels #1) The Black Widow was among a number of superhumans who joined an attack on a stronghold in Germany, dropping in from the air. (Presumably she was happy to work with the heroes in attacking the s, since she would find many souls to damn among the Axis forces). 

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/b/blackwidowga.htm 
The person who wrote the above sentence was in error. According to Pauline theology, you only go to Hell based on your belief or lack of belief in the resurrection of Jesus 
.................................................................................................... 

The masked woman seen as the Black Marvel swings away, and at a meeting with the Green skulled, yellow costumed criminal is the Asbestos Lady. 

http://web.archive.org/web/20010423035226/http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/4775/asbestos.html 

The mask is too similar to chalk up to coincidence. 

The figure in the red and green mask is the Challenger. Notice that a point of the star on his mask can be seen in that panel. 

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/c/challenger.htm 

He was mentioned in Marvel Premiere#29. 
............................................................................................ 

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/t/timelycomics.htm 

The Falcon is probably one of the GA characters seen, the one with wings on his mask. 
.................................................. 

The person narrating the flashback metntioned 1945, so I would go with that for the fbs. 

I supposed the yellow costumed character must be an actual GA published character. 

Update; thanks to Ronald Byrd, the various villains are: 

the Flaming , the Orchid, the Viking, the Asbestos Lady, the Parrot, Doctor Crime, and the Cobra 


http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/gav_marvel.html 

the Cobra (Almanaque do O Globo Juvenil #1; Human Torch/Captain Marvel foe) 
- saboteur who looks like a cobra; operates underwater 

the Parrot (Marvel Mystery #24; Human Torch foe) - saboteur who looks 
like a parrot; taunting Joker-type who liked to send the Torch 
announcements of his upcoming crimes, sometimes using a real parrot. 

The Flaming Hatel appeared in 
Marvel Mystery Comics#53 
This is availabel online. 
The Orchid was in Blackstone the Magician#2 (contra Phantom Blonde ) 
The Viking was in Sub-Mariner Comics#24 
Asbestos Lady 
Parrot was in Marvel Mystery Comics#24 and #26 
Doctor Crime was in Captain America Comics#12 and All Winners Comics#7 
The Cobra appeared in either Human Torch#14 or in Captain America Comics#21

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Posted: 12 May 2005 10:36 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
(Marvels #1)The Black Widow was among a number of superhumans who joined an attack on a stronghold in Germany, dropping in from the air. (Presumably she was happy to work with the heroes in attacking the s, since she would find many souls to damn among the Axis forces). 

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/b/blackwidowga.htm 
<<<

I'm confused why you edited the word "Nazi" out of the above quote. Twice. One time leaving in the "s" of "Nazis", but not the rest of the word. Are you okay? 


Quote: 
>>>
The person who wrote the above sentence was in error. According to Pauline theology, you only go to Hell based on your belief or lack of belief in the resurrection of Jesus 
<<<

You really need to get the idea through your head that Marvel Comics Religions don't work the same way you'd like religion to work in the real world. The same page you linked to above tells us that Satan granted the Golden Age Black Widow the power to kill with a touch and deliver the souls of her victims directly to him. "Pauline theory", whatever that is, has nothing to do with it -- "sending souls to Satan" is the Widow's power. So the person who wrote the above sentence was, in fact, quite correct. 


Quote: 
>>>
the Flaming , ... the Flaming Hatel 
<<<

Do you have this name right? I didn't see a reference to "Flaming" anything in that Golden Age Villains link you posted. I did see "the Flame Witch" ... is that who you meant? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 May 2005 11:32 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The Flaming Hate was the villain in the Miss America story in Marvel Mystery Comics #53. 

Comics.org entry: 
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=3498 

Online scan: 
http://www.heroicpub.com/missamerica/ma23.asp 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 May 2005 05:05 am    
By Enda80

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
(Marvels #1)The Black Widow was among a number of superhumans who joined an attack on a stronghold in Germany, dropping in from the air. (Presumably she was happy to work with the heroes in attacking the s, since she would find many souls to damn among the Axis forces). 

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/b/blackwidowga.htm 
<<<
I'm confused why you edited the word "Nazi" out of the above quote. Twice. One time leaving in the "s" of "Nazis", but not the rest of the word. Are you okay? 
<<<

............................................................................... 
I was using a library computer. Obviously it had surfwatch enabled on it to delete cuss words, etc. 
........................................................................... 

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
The person who wrote the above sentence was in error. According to Pauline theology, you only go to Hell based on your belief or lack of belief in the resurrection of Jesus 
<<<

You really need to get the idea through your head that Marvel Comics Religions don't work the same way you'd like religion to work in the real world. The same page you linked to above tells us that Satan granted the Golden Age Black Widow the power to kill with a touch and deliver the souls of her victims directly to him. "Pauline theory", whatever that is, has nothing to do with it -- "sending souls to Satan" is the Widow's power. So the person who wrote the above sentence was, in fact, quite correct. 
<<<

........................................................................................................... 
The way I figured it was this. A while ago, Don Campbell pointed out in MCPARC 39 (wwwboard/archive) that people tend to go the afterlife that they expected based on their religious upbringing. So, an ancient Scandinavian who grew up believing in the Asgardians who did not die in battle would go to Hela's realm, a Norsemen who did die in battle goes to Valhalla. 

Since historical Christianity is based on Paul's idea that a person only goes to Heaven based on whether or not that person believes in the resurrection of Jesus when he or she dies, it would seem to me that an Earth-616 Christian would only go to Heaven based on whether or not they believe in the resurrection of Jesus, just as an Earth-616 viking would go to Valhalla only because he died in battle. 

I should mention that I myself do not find Paul's idea especially helpful and in fact find it quite distateful. It is probably more healthy that: 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_savn.htm 
Most Americans believe that anyone who leads a good life will eventually spend eternity in Heaven. They hold beliefs that are more related to the religion of Zoroastrianism than to historical Christianity. 

Anyway, if we ever have to do a spot who is in the afterlife, this might be a helpful rule of thumb. 
...............................................................................................

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Posted: 13 May 2005 05:10 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Enda, it doesn't matter what theologians think in the real world. This is the Marvel Universe. It has pantheons of Gods, ninety-five Satans, and a plethora of anthropomorphic weirdos. Trying to apply any sort of external rules to it is pointless. It would be equivalent to me, as an atheist, denying that any of these stories happened at all because God and Satan don't exist.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 May 2005 05:11 am    
By Enda80

I should mention that it is obvious that Earth-616 Christians follow Pauline theology, since in the Black Knight story in Marvel Fanfare I#54, Richard the Lion-Hearted said (when the Black Knight threatened to kill him in retaliation for having slaughtered hostages) "Kill me but remember that only one king's shed blood was ever able to save the world".

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Posted: 13 May 2005 07:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'd say that only proves that Richard the Lionhearted follows that belief system. 

Besides -- again, it doesn't matter what Marvel-Universe Christians BELIEVE. We, the readers, have read countless stories showing that "death" and "afterlives" work differently depending basically on who's writing the comic. 

And if the Golden Age Black Widow's power is to send souls to Satan, then by golly she can send souls to Satan, regardless of what those souls believe. 

It's weird that your library computer's safewatch edits out "Nazi" and "hate", by the way. I'd really hate to think that those words were harmful to minors regardless of context. The whitewashing/censoring of America continues... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 May 2005 08:52 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'd say that only proves that Richard the Lionhearted follows that belief system. 
<<<

I wouldn't go that far. I'd say that only proves that Richard the Lionhearted believes that "only one king's shed blood was ever able to save the world," which, in and of itself, only shows that there are Christians in the Marvel Universe. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 13 May 2005 11:24 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Actually, if you want to get technical, it doesn't even show THAT much! He never names WHICH "king" he's referring to, so he could be talking about Arthur Pendragon. And even if he does mean to refer to Jesus, it only proves that he and he alone follows those principles and says nothing about Christianity being an organized religion. (We know from other sources that Christianity does actually exist in the MU, but that cannot be inferred from this one line of dialogue alone.)

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Posted: 14 May 2005 11:49 am    
By Enda80

I was in a Golden Age mood, so I decided to crack out the tradepaperback to Marvels. 

Looking over the tpb, specifically the sources page, the following GA adventures were referenced in Marvels#1 by dialogue and in newspaper headlines, and are thus E-616 canonical, but not all are reflected in the MCP 

Marvel Mystery Comics#1 (Torch) 
MMC#2 (Namor) 
MMC#4,2,5 (Torch) 
MMC#5 (Torch) 
MMC#6 (Namor, Electro) 
MMC#7-10 (Namor vs. Torch) 
Captain America Comics#1 
MMC#18 (Torch) 
Sub-Mariner#1/MMC#20 (Namor) 
MMC#19 (Torch) 
Cap#1-2 (Cap) 
MMC#17 (Torch, Namor) 
MMC#10 (Torch) 
Sub-Mariner#2 (Namor) 
Human Torch#5 (fall 1941) (Torch, Namor) 

Some of these are already listed, some are not. Again, I am working off the tradepaperback, which details the sources and references to these adventures, some of which are referenced in newspapers and dialogue in Marvels#1. 

Oh, and on an unrelated note, in Captain America I#383's John Walker/USAgent story, Walker says "Christ is said to have sacrificed himself to save the world". I am pretty sure that John Walker did not have King Arthur in mind.

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Posted: 14 May 2005 01:25 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Looking over the tpb, specifically the sources page, the following GA adventures were referenced in Marvels#1 by dialogue and in newspaper headlines, and are thus E-616 canonical, but not all are reflected in the MCP 
<<<

Marvel doesn't have to claim that GA stories are canon. For the most part, Golden Age stories follow the same rule as Silver Age: Super hero stories are canon, unless: (a) they can't be; or (b) Marvel says otherwise. The reason that not all are reflected in the MCP is not because we've claimed they're not canon, but simply because no one has submitted an issue analysis. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Oh, and on an unrelated note, in Captain America I#383's John Walker/USAgent story, Walker says "Christ is said to have sacrificed himself to save the world". I am pretty sure that John Walker did not have King Arthur in mind. 
<<<

The point that others have made is that, even if Marvel Universe Christians believe exactly the same way that real world Christians believe, Marvel Universe Christians are wrong about some things. Many Christians that I know don't believe that the Greek or Norse gods ever really existed. Presumably, Marvel Universe Christians believe the same. But in the Marvel Universe, they're wrong. 


watching: lace ii

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Posted: 14 May 2005 02:08 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Oh, and on an unrelated note, in Captain America I#383's John Walker/USAgent story, Walker says "Christ is said to have sacrificed himself to save the world". I am pretty sure that John Walker did not have King Arthur in mind. 
<<<

As I said earlier, it's not that Christianity doesn't exist in the MU, it's just that you can't take Richard the Lionheart's comment to say that it does. 

I bring this up NOT as a point of religious debate, but as a point of chronologizing in general. There is a distinct difference between what is actually said/shown and what is inferred. As chronologists, we should be largely concerning ourselves with what is actually said/shown. Like science in general. You can come up with all the theories you want, but it's not really valid until you've actually completed the experiement and seen the results. Indeed, there are some creationists who have used this very arguement to change how evolution is taught in schools. 

The Von Strucker thing that came up in another thread recently is a prime example. They say they're going to kill him, and there's a shadow of them preparing to kill him, but we don't actually see Strucker die. That gave Paul an "out" to figure out how the Wolverine and Thunderbolts stories can actually work together. 

So, if Richard the Lionheart says "only one king's shed blood was ever able to save the world" we can only infer that he was talking about Jesus. If some writer down the road decides to write a story about Richard being a devout believer of the Norse mythologies, that doesn't contradict Richard's earlier statement, only our inferences about it. 

Likewise, if John Walker says, "Christ is said to have sacrificed himself to save the world" that doesn't say anything about his own belief system, nor does it say that Christ did indeed sacrifice himself to save the world. It only says that Walker understands that some people believe that Christ sacrificed himself. 

Again, I'm not debating that existence of Christianity in the MU. We know from other sources that it exists. We know God exists in the MU. Heck, we saw Howard the Duck having drinks with the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost! I'm not debating any of those points, and I'm not attacking anyone's religious beliefs. I'm just saying that, for the purposes of the MCP, we're really only concerned with what is actually shown in the Marvel Universe.

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Thread 21

Posted: 14 May 2005 09:28 pm    Post subject: Krang appearances; Byrrah
By Enda80

The Saga of the Sub-Mariner series had a lost of cases where Atlanteans were airbrushed into past stories that they were not in before. For example, Saga#1 shows that Krang was one of the people who directed the attack on the Oracle. 

KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
**SAGASM 1-FB 
**SAGASM 5-FB 
M/:LG 3 
{FF@ 1} 
DD 7 
TTA 70 
TTA 71 
TTA 72 


BYRRAH [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SAGASM 2-FB 
**SAGASM 5-FB 
M/:LG 3 
{TTA 90} 
TTA 91 
SUB-M 33 
SUB-M 50 
SUB-M 51 

DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
**SAGASM 2-FB 
**SAGASM 5-FB 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10 
FF@ 1 
FF 33 
DD 7 
TTA 70 
TTA 71 
TTA 72 

IKTHON 
**SAGASM 5-FB 
SUB-M 7 
SUB-M 9 
SUB-M 15 
SUB-M 16 
SUB-M 17 
SUB-M 21 
SUB-M 22 
SUB-M 31 


FIN/PETER NOBLE 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 7 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 8 
COMEDY COMICS 9 
A 97 should be removed; this was only a mental image created by Rick Jones

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Thread 22

Posted: 14 May 2005 10:11 am    Post subject: GAM4 10 Flashback
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Any thoughts on placement for the flashback at the end of GAM4 10? 

Basically, it's a fight between the X-Men and the Brotherhood, and the Blob suffers a wardrobe malfunction. There's not much more context to it than that. The backdrop is a wrecked building. Gambit's narration says "It happened a few years ago. The X-Men was fightin' the Brotherhood, back when they was still goin' around as the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants." 

The X-Men are Beast, Gambit, Iceman and Storm. The Brotherhood are Avalanche, Blob, Pyro and Toad. Everyone's in their Jim Lee-era costumes (and of course, it's got to be after UX 281 since Beast and Gambit are both X-Men). 

So we're looking at the Toad's group, which is odd, since Avalanche wasn't a member. Still, no reason why he couldn't have turned up for one mission. It can't be the mid-nineties group from UX 363 onwards, since they were just "the Brotherhood of Mutants", and Gambit expressly tells us that it's before the name change. 

Other than that, there's a wide spectrum where this one could fit...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 May 2005 08:08 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I'd place it shortly after the X-Men annual with Empyrean (X@ 3, I think), in which the former Freedom Force and Brotherhood characters finally get back together. It's not much of a logical leap to assume that the team could have remained together as the Brotherhood for some unspecified period of time after that annual. It wasn't too long after that that Pyro started making appearances in his "I'm dying any second now, really I am" mode, so it probably shouldn't be placed too much later than his Legacy revelation. 

-Sean

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Posted: 14 May 2005 09:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Actually, it's X@ 2. If we go with Sean's placement not long after that story, then Avalanche is probably in GAM4 10-FB between X@ 2 and XF 102. XF 102 may be the next appearance of any of the Brotherhood after GAM4 10-FB. Still, that leaves a span of time for Beast, Gambit, Iceman, and Storm to appear in GAM4 10-FB. Any way to narrow it? Perhaps we can put it during the "several weeks" between X@ 2 and UX 305?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 23

Posted: 11 May 2005 06:19 pm    Post subject: Enemy Of The State / New Thunderbolts
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I've been looking at these issues again and I think I've finally come up with a sequence that actually works. By which I mean, it preserves the letter and spirit of both stories. 

For the benefit of those who don't read both books, the "Enemy of the State" crossover between WOLVERINE and NEW THUNDERBOLTS was badly botched because Fabian Nicieza was given a badly inaccurate description of the plot. Specifically, in WOLVERINE, Baron Strucker and the Gorgon are allies (albeit uneasy ones) throughout, and Wolverine is brainwashed by both of them. In NEW THUNDERBOLTS, HYDRA is in a state of civil war. Wolverine is brainwashed by Gorgon's faction and is sent to murder Strucker. 

Can these stories possibly be squared? I believe they can. It requires a bit of creative interpretation, but everything below at least has some basis either in WOLVERINE or in NEW THUNDERBOLTS, and it has the merit of allowing both stories to stand exactly as written. Here's how it works... 

- Before EotS starts: Gorgon assumes leadership of Dawn of the White Light, and sets up an alliance with the Hand and a splinter faction of HYDRA. This splinter faction shares his nihilist/satanist views, and knows that Elsbeth does too. The Dawn Alliance then starts a civil war against the rest of HYDRA (as referenced in NEW THUNDERBOLTS), with the aim of impressing Elsbeth and wresting control of the organisation from Strucker. 

- WOLVERINE #20, pages 1-12: Gorgon and the Dawn Alliance defeat Wolverine and take him away for brainwashing. 

- They brainwash Wolverine off panel. Gorgon decides to try the simple approach first... 

- NEW THUNDERBOLTS #4: Brainwashed by the Dawn Alliance, Wolverine tries to murder Baron Strucker, but is thwarted by the Swordsman. None of this fight actually comes to public attention, and SHIELD manage to miss the whole thing. 

- NEW THUNDERBOLTS #5-6: Strucker ploughs on with his original plan and is defeated by the Thunderbolts. 

- Impressed by Gorgon's efforts, Elsbeth brings him into the HYDRA fold and imposes him on Baron Strucker as an unwanted ally. Gorgon is happy enough with this for the moment - he's been promoted to the supervillain A-list from the minor leagues overnight. As for Strucker, he isn't really in a position to say no, having just cocked it up big time against a bunch of nobodies like the Thunderbolts. No wonder she's losing faith in him. Open hostilities between the factions cease. Of course, Wolverine now requires reprogramming to obey mainstream HYDRA. 

- WOLVERINE #22 (flashback). Gorgon and Strucker supervise Wolverine's brainwashing. 

- WOLVERINE #20, pages 15-24: Wolverine is picked up by SHIELD and "Enemy of the State" gets underway. 

Okay, there's a bit of speculation - but nothing that's without foundation in the stories. And it does allow all the stories to stand as written. WOLVERINE #20 has a gap of over a month during which Wolverine is missing, so there's plenty of time for the Thunderbolts story to take place. 

Is there any reason why this can't work?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 May 2005 09:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That ... seems to work pretty well, actually. And as a bonus, Strucker no longer flits back-and-forth between "looks" -- fat and monocled to thin and bespectacled. 

Thanks for caring about preserving the spirit AND the letter of the books, Paul. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 May 2005 10:18 pm    
By John Simons

Because the Strucker appearing in Wolverine seemed so different than the more traditional version shown in Thunderbolts, I was about ready to write him off as some kind of clone/robot/imposter. 

He doesn't look like Strucker. If Romita Jr. wants to dress him in something other than that silly Hydra spandex more power to him, but his Strucker is also too thin, wears glasses and, most importantly, has no facial scars. 

The Strucker in Wolverine is noticeably wimpier than the traditional Strucker. 

As far as I know, the real Strucker has never been known to be married, whether it be to Aunt May's nasty older sister or anyone else. 

Most importantly, all of the bad guys did not immediately die of the death spore virus when they decapitated "their" Strucker.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 11 May 2005 10:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Most importantly, all of the bad guys did not immediately die of the death spore virus when they decapitated "their" Strucker. 
<<<

But we never actually see Strucker get decapitated, do we?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 May 2005 11:33 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O's proposal also fits in with the mentality of the Hydra seen in the latest ASM arc: one faction comes along to wrest control from another faction...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 12 May 2005 04:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

No, we don't. The scene ends with Strucker kneeling down and apparently submitting to execution, but it's certainly open for later writers to say either that he teleported away at the last minute, or that they were simply going to do some sort of ritual mock execution, or whatever. All sorts of ways out of that scene. I'm sure Millar wrote it that way as an intentional back door. For all we know, he might turn up languishing in a cell later in the current storyline. 

Besides, they're in a HYDRA base at the time, and HYDRA's entire plan at this point revolves around killing people and reviving them as zombies. Half the people in the room are apparently undead already. Who's to say that they haven't either dealt with the virus off panel (precisely so that Strucker could be executed if his plan failed), or that they simply don't care because it's going to be confined within their HQ and, being undead, they're all immune anyway? 

Moreover, there's no reason to doubt that both writers considered themselves to be using the real Baron Strucker, and I'd be very reluctant to mess about with either story to that extent unless unavoidable.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 May 2005 11:23 am    
By John Simons

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
But we never actually see Strucker get decapitated, do we? 
<<<

Well, no, but in the next issue Gorgon says, "He's buried in the sand at low tide." Sort of implies his goosestepping days are done. 

Here's a scenario: they're about to chop his head off, the scene cuts away in the comic just before somebody slaps his forehead and yells, "wait! Stop! the death spore virus!" Everybody nervously titters at how close they came to instant death. "whoops, are we absent-minded," etc. 

Then they throw "Strucker" in an airtight coffin and bury him alive on the beach. 

Howzat? 

I'll bet if we wait long enough, Niciezia will write a "continuity patch" into a future Tbolts or Cable story explaining this discrepency. But til then, I guess Paul O's explanation is as good as any...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 12 May 2005 10:13 pm   
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So...is everyone happy with Paul O.'s chronology?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 May 2005 11:00 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

It works for me.  Now what's the next "current chronology problem" on the agenda? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 May 2005 07:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

And we're still placing NEW INVADERS #6-7 between pages 4 and 5 of WOLVERINE v3 #23, right?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 May 2005 07:17 am  
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Wolverine's working for Strucker in that story, so it's got to go around there. Is there any reason why we're placing it between pages of an issue, though, rather than just between issues #22-23? There seems to be a gap of several weeks in there.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 May 2005 08:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

At the end of W3 22, Strucker (who appears here without his trademark scar) sends instructions to the Hand to "create ten new super-agents within the next seven days"and wants to retrieve Logan to retool him for "a brand new assault on Tony Stark and the heart of the American banking industry. Hydra's secret bank roller [Elsbeth von Strucker] arrives at midnight tonight." 

Then in W3 23FB (2p1, 2p3), "at ten twenty-seven" of what I interpret to be the next night, Wolverine and 100 Hydra agents attack Stark International and by ten forty-one, they slaughter security and trash all Starks defense programs. Logan then pats a dog. 

Then in W3 23 (1-4), Elektra and Nick Fury show up at the site of the trashed Stark International "twenty minutes" after a SHIELD crew pull the Hornets dead body out of the rubble. Elektra decapitates the Hornet to prevent him from becoming a resurrected member of the bad guys' death cult. 

Because Strucker plans on attacking Stark at the end of W3 22 and the subsequent attack occurs at the beginning of W3 23, I have placed those scenes together. Then I see a gap between pages 4 and 5 of W3 23 into which NEW INVADERS #6-7 can go. In those issues, Strucker sends Logan after Professor Eckhardt, an assignment I figure should happen after that Stark attack. 

In the next segment of W3 23 (pages 5-15), Elektra notes that "Wolverine has been out there for five weeks now. Five weeks and eighteen significant attacks." How should this time reference be interpreted -- five weeks since Logan escaped from SHIELD in W3 21 (1-13)?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 May 2005 06:13 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

From the context, Elektra must mean it's five weeks since Wolverine escaped from the SHIELD ship. So there's clearly a lengthy gap somewhere, but you could place it either between issues #22-23 or between the opening scenes of issue #23. 

Either is viable, but I'm inclined to place it between issues #22-23 for the following reasons:- 

1. Although issue #22 does end with Strucker announcing a strike against "Tony Stark and the heart of the American banking industry", he just says that he wants Wolverine prepared for that strike. It's not clear quite when that strike's planned for, or even that it's the same attack we see on issue #23. The attack in issue #23 is a raid on a Stark International plant to steal some defence files. It's got nothing to do with Tony Stark personally, or with the American banking industry. Strucker could quite easily be referring to another one of the "eighteen attacks", most of which are unseen. 

2. It's snowing throughout issue #23, which suggests that Millar intended it all to happen in the same night. 

3. In NEW INVADERS #6, the Invaders have only heard rumours that Wolverine's gone rogue, implying that for whatever reason SHIELD haven't got around to contacting them yet. That points towards placing the story as early as possible, since in WOLVERINE, SHIELD are trying to get the word out to the superhero community as quickly as they can. 

4. I just generally prefer not to split up issues if I can get away with it...!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 May 2005 10:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'll buy your arguments, Paul...well, at least #1-3. I confess I, too, do like to keep things as neat as possible by not breaking up issues into parts, but your other points demonstrate that we don't have to in the case of W3 23.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 24

Posted: 13 May 2005 05:10 pm    Post subject: ASM 40 flashback
By ADMINISTRATOR

Is anyone here who has the Revenge of the Green Goblin series willing to weave the flashbacks with the flashback in ASM 40? 


watching: angel

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Posted: 15 May 2005 08:05 am    
By michel

We currently have these flashbacks : 

GREEN GOBLIN/NORMAN OSBORN JR. 
SM:RGG 1-FB1 
SM:RGG 2-FB1 
PPTSS@ 14-FB1 
ASM2 25-FB 
PPSM2 25-FB 
SM:RGG 2-FB2 
SM:RGG 1-FB2 
SM:RGG 3-FB1 
SM:RGG 1-FB3 
PPTSS@ 14-FB2 
S-M -1-FB 
S-M -1 
PPTSS@ 14-FB3 
SM:RGG 3-FB2 
ASM '97-FB 
UTSM 1 

In SM:RGG 1-FB2, Harry is just born. 
SM:RGG 1-FB3 shows Norman before Emily's grave, less than one year later. 

The four first panel from ASM 40-FB have to come later. 

SM:RGG 3-FB2 is a four panel flash-back 

1st panel : the police arrests Mendell Stromm in front of Norman Osborn. Seems to be just after the fifth panel of AMS 40-FB 
2nd panel : Norman wonders why his solution is turning green 
3rd panel : the explosion 
4th panel : Norman realizes at the hospital he has super-strength

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Posted: 15 May 2005 08:56 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, Michel. 

michel wrote: 
>>>
SM:RGG 3-FB2 is a four panel flash-back 

1st panel : the police arrests Mendell Stromm in front of Norman Osborn. Seems to be just after the fifth panel of AMS 40-FB 
2nd panel : Norman wonders why his solution is turning green 
3rd panel : the explosion 
4th panel : Norman realizes at the hospital he has super-strength 
<<<

These appear to duplicate flashbacks in ASM 40. 


watching: godzilla vs. megalon

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Thread 25

Posted: 13 May 2005 10:17 pm    Post subject: PING: John Simons: UTSM
By ADMINISTRATOR

On November 3, 2000, you posted: 

Quote: 
>>>
GREEN GOBLIN/NORMAN OSBORN 
UTSM 2 (Currently mistakenly listed as BTS, but he actually appears) 
<<<

Where does he appear? 


watching: suns vs. mavericks

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Posted: 14 May 2005 12:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Page 10, panel 1 -- we see a couple dozen people at a soiree and word balloons showing snippets of conversation, including "Norman Osborn! Why, I haven't seen you in a --" 

The question is: do we actually see Norman Osborn in the panel? No one seems to have that distinctive mane of red hair, but one person who could be Norman is the gentleman above the word balloon, "--no, not Iron Man -- even more audacious." He looks rather like Norman although the hair is dark, but not necessarily brown or black, given scale and lighting. 

Then there's a male figure in silhouette at the bottom right of the panel. We might ascribe that quotation above to the white-haired gentleman facing the silhouetted figure, making the silhouetted figure Norman. 

In both scenarios, my assumption is that the dialog snippets are said by the people on panel and are spoken to people on panel.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 May 2005 01:11 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Those seem too tenuous to me. I'm not sure that we can claim that someone is on panel, if we can't identify them. 


watching: lace ii

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Posted: 15 May 2005 12:20 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sorry!  
The people in that panel are so small I had no problem accepting that one of them was Norman. I wasn't trying to hornswoggle anybody.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Thread 26

Posted: 15 May 2005 12:26 pm    Post subject: D-MAN
By captamr

The Demolition Man needs a FB addition for CA 333(pg.8, pn.6) in the Super-Patriots origin tale. The reference is to a generic Unlimited Class Wrestling Federation scene, which Im placing, based on D-Mans white tank top. He sports the outfit briefly in his Thing appearances around #29 instead of his traditional red jumpsuit, which he apparently wears during fights: 

DEMOLITION MAN / Dennis Dunphy 

{TG 28} 
TG 29 
**CA 333  FB 
TG 33
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 27

Posted: 15 May 2005 09:12 pm    Post subject: Baron Strucker question
By Enda80

ST 158 
S-M 76-FB-BTS 
DD:FFG-FB 
X&AF2 1 
X&AF2 2 
NF3 20-BTS 
NF3 21 

How did Strucker appear in between ST 158 (where he died) and NF3 21 (where he was revived)? Has this been explained? 

By the way, what was new in the Fall From Grace tpb?

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Thread 28

Posted: 08 May 2005 02:21 pm    Post subject: Hulk persona labels (mostly to Kevin W)
By shandrakor

I was reading through the calendar version posted on the MCP, and I found the nitpicky part of my brain taking issue with some of the persona labels that Kevin W used. Figured I'd post it here in case anyone else has input on the subject. 

Taking things from the top, the primary Hulk persona Kevin calls the "Stupid Hulk." I believe the more common term is "Savage Hulk". 

"Joe Fixit" is accurate, but I personally prefer "Grey Hulk" for consistancy's sake. Grey Hulk was there at the start, and his personality can be "read into" other earlier stories long before he took on the alias of Joe Fixit. 

The persona that believed itself to be an amalgam of the three core minds is inconsistantly referred to as "Smart Hulk" and "Professor Hulk," but I think the more accurate label is simply "Professor," or "the Professor." Think "the Doctor" from Doctor Who. 

The deformed, monster-like Hulk from H3 12-13 is called "Raging Hulk" on the calendar, but I've always heard it called the "Guilt Hulk." 

Finally, Devil Hulk, we totally agree on. 

Just my $0.02. Anyone's thoughts?

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Posted: 08 May 2005 05:17 pm    
By Somebody

Savage Hulk - yeah, almost everyone calls him that. 

Prefer "Fixit" to "Grey Hulk", since (1) the Hulk from IH v1 1-3 (who was grey in IH1, and is often confused with Fixit for that reason alone) wasn't Fixit (2) the Fixit persona's earlier appearances (IH v1 5-6 (and arguably #4), notably) were in green. And you're being inconsistant here - the Merged Hulk/Professor appeared long before he took the alias of the Professor (and if you're going with that name, you're right in not appending Hulk to it)

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Posted: 08 May 2005 06:01 pm    
By shandrakor

I disagree that Hulk in H 1 isn't Fixit. The dialogue patterns are a very clear model for the Fixit persona. I recall Fixit explaining about only being able to influence Banner's behavior, rather than actually control the body. I've always been of the understanding that Peter David intended the Grey Hulk to be a restoration of the personality we saw in those very early Hulk apperances. 

As for my inconsistancy on the Professor, the problem lies with the fact that in the early days, he thought he was Banner. It simply doesn't work to call him Banner Hulk, since that would better describe times that Banner was in control of Hulk's body. While it's not entirely accurate, "Merged Hulk" is probably the best I've heard before. The problem there is that your post just now is the only time I've ever heard of it, and then we're running into the same problem as Stupid Hulk and Raging Hulk. They're accurate terms, but nobody uses them. Professor simply seems to be the best term to describe that persona. 

Honestly, Fixit and Grey Hulk both work, and pushing for Grey Hulk is mostly selfish preference because it's what I've been using in my own work. If people think that Joe Fixit is a better label to use, I'll just go back and make the necessary changes in my existing analyses. I just like to get everybody on basically the same page.

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Posted: 08 May 2005 10:44 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Thanks for your interest, Shandrakor. Your right, it probably would help for all of us to be on the same page when it comes to labeling which Hulk persona we're talking about from time to time. 

First, you should know I settled on those terms simply to keep them straight for my own review purposes, I didn't intend for my terms to be "canon". My reviews for the calender really started around the "Paul Jenkins" run on Hulk, and as he really took the whole "multiple personalities" concept to a new extreme, I dealt with it as best I could. 

"Savage Hulk" is indeed a term often used, but since there was another "Savage persona" of sorts in H3 12-13, I switched it to "Stupid Hulk", and called the new persona in "Raging Hulk". You might notice that I also referred to that version as "Classic Hulk" or "Classic Stupid Hulk", (that term should be in those original analysis on the calender as well). I for one don't see this version of the Hulk as truly "savage", because at heart, he's just an overgrown simpleton, with a child's mentality. 

Besides, "Savage" was the term set aside by Marvel for She-Hulk, (it was in the title of her comic! Before she became Sensational...) 

Quote: 
>>>
I disagree that Hulk in H 1 isn't Fixit. The dialogue patterns are a very clear model for the Fixit persona. I recall Fixit explaining about only being able to influence Banner's behavior, rather than actually control the body. I've always been of the understanding that Peter David intended the Grey Hulk to be a restoration of the personality we saw in those very early Hulk apperances.  
<<<

I agree with this assessment. I prefer referring to him as "Grey Hulk" but I think the "Fixit" term did pop up in my analysis, (I wasn't as consistent as I should've been, but I figured that anybody would know that Fixit and Grey Hulk were the same figure...though apparently that's debateable, when it comes to those first few issues of Hulk Vol. 1). 


Quote: 
>>>
As for my inconsistancy on the Professor, the problem lies with the fact that in the early days, he thought he was Banner. It simply doesn't work to call him Banner Hulk, since that would better describe times that Banner was in control of Hulk's body. 
<<<

Besides that, I seem to recall that "Prof. Hulk" or "The Professor" was what that persona called himself in the Jenkin's issues, (upon discovering he was a whole new persona, not Banner). 


Quote: 
>>>
The deformed, monster-like Hulk from H3 12-13 is called "Raging Hulk" on the calendar, but I've always heard it called the "Guilt Hulk."  
<<<

Where did you hear it referred to as "Guilt Hulk"? I'd like to know. I had some trouble settling on a name for this Hulk persona. I couldn't call him "Evil Hulk", because I didn't want to confuse him with "Devil Hulk". I couldn't call him "Savage" Hulk because that would get him confused with what I refer to as "Classic Stupid Hulk". "Rage" or "Raging" Hulk seemed most appropriate, as it was my understanding this persona came into existence because of built up frustration and anger over Banner's sad state of existence... 

Moving on, I don't suppose you read the Bruce Jones run on the Hulk, Shandrakor? Cause I still have difficulty labeling the Hulk personalities on display during that run on the book. 

When Bruce Jones first started on the book, it was my understanding that he had Banner suppress all personalities of the Hulk seen prior to now. In the Jones issues, when Banner changed into the Hulk, the Hulk was an almost silent, rampaging Beast. He didn't say stuff like "Hulk Smash!" and seemed a bit more...evil...more of a beast, then a true persona. 

And yet, later on in Bruce Jones' run, we're led to believe that Banner has gained control over the Hulk's body. So would we call this persona "Banner Hulk", (the same as the name given for when Banner was in control of the Hulk's body in the early to mid 80's?) 

And as we neared the end of Bruce Jones's run, we had the "Hulk/Thing: Hard Knocks" miniseries, in which it seemed that Hulk carried on a pretty lengthy conversation with the Thing, and specifically referred to himself as NOT being the same person as Banner. 

And I still don't know what to make of Peter David's version of the Hulk since he's taken over the title...to me, it's reminiscent of the version of the Hulk right before he left the title in the late 90's, (the Hulk who laughed coldly while he killed Agamemnon's son)...it just seems like David's picking up right where he left off... 

I just rationalized that the supressed personalities were resurfacing, but I was interested in your take on the subject...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 May 2005 02:44 am    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
You might notice that I also referred to that version as "Classic Hulk" or "Classic Stupid Hulk" 
<<<

I hadn't actually noticed, but I only spent like 30 seconds skimming down the page. Classic Hulk is a pretty good description, I just worry that with 4 primary core personas, 2 rare core personas, random hulk behaviour that doesn't fit with any of the cores, and a "cave" full of thousands of splinter minds, it's important to try and use one and only one term per personality. 


Quote: 
>>>
"Savage" was the term set aside by Marvel for She-Hulk 
<<<

True, but other than her lunacy during Disassembled, I don't think that Jen has gone "savage" in quite some time. 


Quote: 
>>>
I seem to recall that "Prof. Hulk" or "The Professor" 
<<<

I'm fairly certain that he never used Prof. Hulk. Just Professor. 


Quote: 
>>>
Where did you hear it referred to as "Guilt Hulk"? 
<<<

I originally picked up the term at www.incrediblehulk.com, and www.hulklibrary.com uses it too. I'm confident I've seen it on a message board or two somewhere, but I couldn't say where. 

Since the Guilt Hulk incarnation was originally Banner's mental image of his father, I believe people ended up attributing the persona to the repressed guilt Banner held over failing to save his mother's life. 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't suppose you read the Bruce Jones run on the Hulk 
<<<

I'm quite sorry to say that yes, I have read the Bruce Jones stuff. Honestly, I didn't even like it in the early stages like many people did, and it only went downhill from there. But, that's probably enough editorial. 

There's actually two trouble periods. Onslaught through the end of H2 gives us a new persona without any obvious label to attach to it. Basically, you have elements of Savage and Grey Hulks without any moderating influence from Banner. incrediblehulk.com calls that persona "Ultimate Savage Hulk," which I think is a little over the top, but I don't have anything better to suggest. The same site renames the incarnation to "Post HR Hulk" after the Banner mind is reinserted during Heroes Reborn, but I disagree with that judgement. The Banner mind might be putting some calming influence on Hulk during that period, but it's more a whisper in the background rather than an actual edit of the personality itself. 

The second is Bruce Jones through now. Hulk was so deliberately placed in the background of his own book during early Jones that it is difficult to make a good diagnosis. It's implied that Hulk never speaks and is purely destructive, which would suggest incidents of "Mindless Hulk," which is pretty much the lack of any guiding persona. It would seem to be that the "transendental imagery" meditation Banner picked up allowed him to lock the other cores away tightly enough that they couldn't come out to play even when the body switched over. As an aside, I really don't see Grey Hulk or the Professor appreciating that very much, though the Professor will forgive him. 

That feeds fairly neatly into later Jones, where Banner continues subsuming the rest of the minds, but manages to keep control through the shift. During that period, I would personally just indicate after each transformation that Banner is still in control of the Hulk body, then refer to him as Banner from then on. Banner Hulk and Savage Banner aren't actual different minds, they're just the regular core minds in different body configurations than usual. Calling such a configuration Banner Hulk seems perfectly appropriate, but as one prone to run on sentences, anything to keep my word count down is preferred. 


Quote: 
>>>
And as we neared the end of Bruce Jones's run, we had the "Hulk/Thing: Hard Knocks" miniseries 
<<<

Do we really have to deal with that? *sigh* I suppose we must. 

Personally, were I doing the writeup, I would indicate at the start of the segment that "Except for a few half-heartedly violent outbursts, Hulk remains lucid and downright conversational throughout the conversation" Simply put, the conversation is too light to be Grey Hulk, too angry to be the Professor, and too smart for Savage. I wouldn't call it any of those, and I would refuse to invent a new persona for it. After that, I would hope that I am never called upon to read, talk about, or even remember 'Hard Knocks' for the rest of my life. 

Good bye, Bruce Jones. You won't be missed. Oh, wait. I was supposed to be done editorializing. 


Quote: 
>>>
I still don't know what to make of Peter David's version of the Hulk since he's taken over the title 
<<<

Ahh, the savior hath returned to us and delivered us from the heathens! Alright, last outburst, I promise. 

You're right. What we basically seem to have is a return to the Hulk personality we saw at the end of Peter David's run. The "Ultimate Savage Hulk." Ugh, god I hate that name, but I can't think of a single better one. He's a lot like Grey Hulk in a green body, but there's some differences I can't really put a finger on. Really, it's just Professor without all of Banner's niceness. I say we give him some more time and see if David hands us any sort of decent explanation for what's going on in Banner's head. I can't imagine he'll stick around too long without a return to the mental crossroads, but only time will tell. 

~J. Darien Riffe

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Posted: 09 May 2005 09:22 pm    
By lkseitz

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Thanks for your interest, Shandrakor. Your right, it probably would help for all of us to be on the same page when it comes to labeling which Hulk persona we're talking about from time to time. 
<<<

Didn't the latest TOHOTMU: HULK give names for each major Hulk personality? I'm not sure where my copy is at the moment, but it would seem to make sense to use those since Marvel printed it. Wouldn't it? 
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 10 May 2005 01:21 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Agreed. Does anyone with a copy of this comic care to share it's names for the various Hulk personas? 

Beyond that, though, I mostly agree with your thoughts, Shandrakor. 

Personally, I'm beginning to think it might be best to keep from labeling any of the personas on display from Bruce Jones' run...not until someone else comes along and sorts out what happened...perhaps it's best to just refer to the Hulk from those issues as "Jones' Hulk".  

I too am hoping that Peter David sheds some light on the subject of Hulk personas...I also hope that he doesn't just say the stuff from Paul Jenkins and Bruce Jones's run never happened... 

Moving on, the term "Savage Hulk" is fine by me as far as analysis purposes go...I just never cared for the term myself, but oh well... 

Guilt Hulk works for me, if that's what's been passed around on other message boards. I never made the connection that this Hulk came into existence because of what happened to his mother...it seemed like a relatively new creation in Banner's head, not something that had lingered since his mom's death. But that could be me misreading the story. 

As far as "The Professor" goes, he may have referred to himself as that, but Grey Hulk referred to himself as "Joe Fixit". "Prof. Hulk" designates what he is, not his name for himself, much like we did with "Grey Hulk"...I guess the question is: if they have named themselves, do we in that case go by their name for themselves, or by other factors, "The color of their skin, their personality"....?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 10 May 2005 01:57 am    
By John Simons

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Agreed. Does anyone with a copy of this comic care to share it's names for the various Hulk personas?  
<<<

"Chief among these identities are the reserved, Bruce Banner core identity, highly intelligent, but devoid of emotion; the "savage Hulk" identity, which has childlike levels of intelligence and curiosity, with a longing for friendship and love, and is prone to violent fits of rage (the "savage" Hulk is usually unaware that he is actually Banner, whom he sees as a different person and an enemy); the Joe Fixit identity (usually in the gray Hulk), lacking Banner's advanced intellect and scientific knowledge, but exceptionally clever and crafty, with selfish motives and desires, and similarly prone to violence; the "Professor" or "merged Hulk" identity, possessing all of Banner's intellect and the savage Hulk's strength, with normal emotional capability, though still quite prone to violence; the "mindless" Hulk, when Banner's influence has been completely removed; and the "devil" Hulk identity, malevolent and destructive, kept submerged deep within Banner's psyche, but constantly struggling to escape and take over. 

"The distinctions between these identities have differed significantly with time, with Banner himself having a variable capacity for emotion. At times, the Banner identity has had changing levels of control over the Hulk. Similarly, Banner's memories of his actions as the Hulk- and vice versa- vary significantly. Even the alleged "merged Hulk" has been claimed to be yet one more splinter identity, a fragment of the whole renamed the "Professor.""
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 10 May 2005 02:58 am    
By shandrakor

So, it sounds like we're in agreement on: 

Bruce Banner - primary core 
Savage Hulk - the "classic" hulk mind 
Guilt Hulk - from H3 12-13 
Devil Hulk - same time period 
Mindless Hulk - umm...a mindless Hulk  

We still have choices to make on: 

Professor vs Merged Hulk & Joe Fixit vs Grey Hulk - For consistancy's sake, it seems like we should use either chosen names or descriptive names for both of these. At this point, I'm going to vote for chosen names for a few reasons. First, it's consistant with our treatment of other heroes, calling them by their chosen codenames. Secondly, it's occurring to me that it's easier to avoid confusion in a recap by calling him Fixit, rather than Grey Hulk, at times when the body is green. Finally, just as personal bias, I'm a Doctor Who nerd, and I really enjoy calling him the Professor  

Late and modern Peter David Hulk - The only term I've seen is "Ultimate Savage Hulk," which I don't personally like. We could shorten it to just "Ultimate Hulk," but what happens if they decide to launch an "Ultimate Hulk," book? I don't find that espcially likely, but even without a new book, there's possible confusion with the Ultimate universe. A few other suggestions: 
Smart Hulk - Good basic description, though potentially confused with the Prof. 
Smart Savage Hulk - Even more unwieldy than Ultimate Savage Hulk, but without the label confusion 
Onslaught Hulk - Onslaught and the HR universe is what brought this persona into being, so even though it's not descriptive, I personally like it. Runs into the problem of people potentially confused about references to Onslaught Hulk occurring in Hulk books published almost 10 years later... 

Early Bruce Jones Hulk - I'm personally against the meta aspect of using the author's name. Every writer put their own spin on each persona, if this one is unique, it needs it's own name. Also, leaving it unlabeled bothers me, and we can't be certain that any future stories will end up clarifying things. Until and unless someone goes back and sheds light on what's going on in Banner's head those days, I'm still pushing for claiming apperances of "Mindless Hulk". There was no personality evident, and the concept is at least broadly consistant with Banner's self-hypnosis. 

Hard Knocks Hulk - For a throwaway miniseries like this, I see no good reason to come up with a new persona label. Until and unless we get clarification, I'm comfortable just referring to this persona as "Broadly inconsistant with any other Hulk personality previously experienced" and leave it at that. We can always call him "Conversational Hulk" sometime down the road if we have to. 

Did I miss any? Opinions on the ones currently unresolved? Problems with any of the titles I thought we were already agreeing on? 

~J. Darien Riffe

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Posted: 10 May 2005 05:51 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I've referred to the post-Onslaught Banner-less Hulk as the "Soulless Hulk", though I never got so far as to give that Hulk a name once he was reunited with Banner. "Ultimate Savage Hulk" is a misnomer, since he's not nearly as savage as the Savage Hulk. 

-Sean

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Posted: 10 May 2005 06:03 pm    
By shandrakor

Hmm. Soulless Hulk is pretty good. I'm a little concerned that it could be confused with Devil Hulk, and there's the problem that the persona sticks around after the return of the Banner mind.

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Posted: 10 May 2005 06:27 pm    
By Somebody

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
I disagree that Hulk in H 1 isn't Fixit. The dialogue patterns are a very clear model for the Fixit persona. I recall Fixit explaining about only being able to influence Banner's behavior, rather than actually control the body. I've always been of the understanding that Peter David intended the Grey Hulk to be a restoration of the personality we saw in those very early Hulk apperances. 
<<<

Well, that last sentence is easy to refute: compare the "Grey Hulk" in IH78 (which PAD intended to be the IH1-Hulk) to Fixit. No sale. (I'm not bothering with vol. nos, since there's no overlap) 

The only ways that PAD's Fixit especially followed the IH1-Hulk were in the day/night transformation pattern & skin colour (and the IH1-Hulk was green in IH2 & 3 anyway). Being picky, you could claim that the Hulk in IH324 (not just the ending, but most of the issue) is the IH1-Hulk, but that's Milgrom, not PAD, and Milgrom then proceeds to write the grey Hulk as the personality we come to know as Fixit in IH326. 


shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
As for my inconsistancy on the Professor, the problem lies with the fact that in the early days, he thought he was Banner. It simply doesn't work to call him Banner Hulk, since that would better describe times that Banner was in control of Hulk's body. While it's not entirely accurate, "Merged Hulk" is probably the best I've heard before. The problem there is that your post just now is the only time I've ever heard of it, and then we're running into the same problem as Stupid Hulk and Raging Hulk. They're accurate terms, but nobody uses them. Professor simply seems to be the best term to describe that persona. 
<<<

A few quick examples: 

Wikipedia's Hulk article has as the relevant section header 'Merged Hulk ("The Professor")' [and you can check, I didn't just add that] 

Newsarama: "While theres no doubt that the prolific writer has written Marvels Green Goliath for 12 years previously, and that many longtime Hulk fans remembered (and still do) his first smashing run that featured and included, among others, the Mr. Fixit Gray Hulk, Merged Hulk..." 

Comicboards' Hulk board has the term "Merged Hulk" in 4523 posts (and counting) (NB: that link WILL take a while to load, their search function is sllloooooooowwwwwwwwww...) 

PAD: These critics generally tend to single out what I called "the merged Hulk"....the period dubbed "the professor" by Paul Jenkins, a title I don't hold with considering that it focuses merely on the scholarly aspects of the character at the time without taking into account that he was, in essence, a big bully. 

(And that's true, in large part. While it's clearly intended to be the same character, in the same way that Spider-Man's been written in very different ways from time to time, Jenkins' "Professor" has very little in common with PAD's Merged Hulk. Not to mention that the he-wasn't-really-merged-honest retcon is one of the least sound retcons EVER, since it tries to overrule a omniecent perspective with a character POV perspective, where the character in question clearly had nowhere near the level of control the retcon requires and depends on the fallacy that the MH/P didn't realise he wasn't acting like Bruce Banner when he gave numerous soliloquies and had lengthy thoughts to hammer that point home), etc) 

And the best name I've seen for the late-PAD Hulk is "Gravage Hulk". I bet you can guess how you get that 

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Posted: 10 May 2005 07:26 pm    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
compare the "Grey Hulk" in IH78 ... to Fixit. No sale. 
<<<

You're right - the portrayal of Grey Hulk in H3 78 isn't much like Joe Fixit. Fixit isn't a whole lot like the early Hulk either, Grey or Green. Simply put, though, the early Hulk was much smarter than Savage Hulk. Milgrom presented us with a Hulk of the same color and transformation pattern as H 1, and the same general intelligence level as H 1-2. The fact that he chose to introduce, and then David developed, a sort of gangster personality just feels like a writing choice, rather than an intentional decision to make a "new" Grey Hulk. It's exactly the sort of stuff that PAD was talking about in the link you posted. 

Regarding Professor vs Merged Hulk, I'll totally cop to being wrong about the common usage of Merged Hulk. It still leaves us the question of "descriptive names" vs "chosen names." You seem to prefer the descriptive for Merged Hulk, but chosen for Fixit. I personally think we should go one way or the other. 

Regarding Gravage Hulk, I'm up in the air. I'd put it about on par with Onslaught Hulk on my preference list. Actually, I really like the term they use in that Wiki article: Unleashed Hulk. It gives a good sense of the freedom from both Grey and Savage's limitations. Most of the strength, but little of the stupidity. 

And you're right, the Professor-removal retcon was crap. I like the idea of the Prof. being yet another splinter, but I would have much preferred it if it were something that got figured out, rather than something that Doc Sampson deliberately caused.

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Posted: 10 May 2005 09:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Man, my eyes are glazing over in reading this thread -- no reflection on the posters, just on the confusing mess that Banner's psyche is. Definitely hard to keep things straight.  

Once everyone's come to consensus on nomenclature, someone please post what we determine to be the definitive names, along with what the Calendar's been calling them so I can do some replacements before I post the updated Calendar (which I'm reviewing now for errors, although admittedly not very doggedly). 

Thanks, guys.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 May 2005 12:59 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Early Bruce Jones Hulk - I'm personally against the meta aspect of using the author's name. Every writer put their own spin on each persona, if this one is unique, it needs it's own name. Also, leaving it unlabeled bothers me, and we can't be certain that any future stories will end up clarifying things. Until and unless someone goes back and sheds light on what's going on in Banner's head those days, I'm still pushing for claiming apperances of "Mindless Hulk". There was no personality evident, and the concept is at least broadly consistant with Banner's self-hypnosis. 
<<< 

Agreed: Mindless Hulk is the best bet. If you absolutely wanted to set a difference from the Mindless Hulk seen in the mid 80's, you could declare them as being "Mindless Hulk, version 1" and "Mindless Hulk, version 2", but I do believe they are in essense the same personality, (or lack thereof). 


Quote: 
>>>
Hard Knocks Hulk - For a throwaway miniseries like this, I see no good reason to come up with a new persona label. Until and unless we get clarification, I'm comfortable just referring to this persona as "Broadly inconsistant with any other Hulk personality previously experienced" and leave it at that. We can always call him "Conversational Hulk" sometime down the road if we have to. 
<<<

I think you're right in that we shouldn't bother assigning a new persona name. Jones was originally scheduled to write at least one more story arc on the ongoing title after "Hard Knocks" concluded, but he left or was fired, (depending on who you believe). It's my belief that Jones was setting up for a resurfacing of the various personalities, (he just wasn't spelling that out very well in "Hard Knocks"). This is backed up by the recent Hulk appearance in Cap. America and the Falcon #12. In that issue, for the first half of the comic, the Hulk is on a rampage, yet is silent as can be. Later on, he reverts to Banner, but then becomes the Hulk again, and this time, it's clearly the Savage Hulk that comes out! 


Quote: 
>>>
PAD: These critics generally tend to single out what I called "the merged Hulk"....the period dubbed "the professor" by Paul Jenkins, a title I don't hold with considering that it focuses merely on the scholarly aspects of the character at the time without taking into account that he was, in essence, a big bully. 
<<<

Hey, I knew some Professor's in college that were big bullies in essense.  Really, as someone who was a HUGE fan of the Jenkins stories, let me just say, it doesn't matter to me wether the retcon on the Merged personality was well thought out, or not. That personality is now "The Professor", since Jenkins established it that way in his run. As PAD is now writing the title again, if he wants to go back in and RE-retcon things, and declared the "Merged" personality from his prior run as being something different then "the Professor" of Jenkins' run, then that's fine. Until then, I'm going to go with calling this persona "The Professor". 

I now think we should go by the names they used for themselves, (in both The Professor and Joe Fixit's case). Let's face it, there's so much misunderstanding on the personas in those early Hulk issues from the early 60's, that it's going to be something that's never fully concluded. But by the time PAD took over the title, we ended up with a name for the persona: Joe Fixit. That's the name we should stick with, and we should put an asterix next to the Hulk when discussing the Hulk that appeared in those first few issues back in the 60's. The asterix would have a fine print, which would read "Hulk's personality has not yet splintered into easily identifiable personas" 


Quote: 
>>>
Actually, I really like the term they use in that Wiki article: Unleashed Hulk. 
<<<

I agree. That's the best term yet, and it's what I vote for. 


Quote: 
>>>
Once everyone's come to consensus on nomenclature, someone please post what we determine to be the definitive names, along with what the Calendar's been calling them so I can do some replacements before I post the updated Calendar (which I'm reviewing now for errors, although admittedly not very doggedly). 
<<<

Give us 20 years or so, we should be finished by then.  Naw, I think we're getting close now...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 11 May 2005 11:41 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I've been thinking about it some more... 

Back when I first read those Late PAD stories in the late 90's, I for one thought that the Hulk persona on display was simply what we later referred to as "The Professor" unleashed...same persona, but because of all the bull@#$% in his life, he's just more angry and mean spirited about things...he "got bitter" so to speak...but I'm missing some issues from right around Onslaught...is it clearly presented that this is a whole new persona? 

Also, could the Hulk on display in "Hard Knocks" be the "Unleashed Hulk" in a chatty mood?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 12 May 2005 12:42 am    
By shandrakor

Well, at that stage, Professor was supposed to actually be a merge of the three cores. Since Unleashed Hulk originally posessed no part of the Banner mind, it couldn't really be Professor. 

Since Professor has been shown to be a separate persona, there exists the possibility. A few problems: Unleashed Hulk looks like Savage, not like Professor. Also, returning Banner to Hulk doesn't turn Unleashed back to Professor, but later on, during Jenkins, we get back to Professor being more-or-less himself. And now, with David, we seem to be back to Unleashed. 

And yes, Hard Knocks Hulk could be Unleashed, I suppose. It's probably the art that bugs me more than anything else.

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Posted: 12 May 2005 10:55 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, okie dokie. I think I'm just going to settle upon: "until further evidence presented, 'Unleashed Hulk' is indeed a new persona that first came into existence late in the original PAD run..." Also, until we get a better explanation for Hard Knocks, I think our best bet is to not label it a new persona, or to declare it the "Unleashed" Hulk... 

We're going to have to wait for PAD or some other writer to sort this all out more definitively...but as it stands now, have we come to an agreement on what names we want for the persona's seen to date?Mind you, I'm not asking if we're in agreement over which Hulk is which in the early 60's, I'm asking are we in agreement over the names designated for the clearly defined personas known as of now. 

Here's a list of the names I believe we've settled upon: 

Bruce Banner: Primary Core 
Savage Hulk: the "Classic" Hulk mind 
Joe Fixit: the Gray Hulk of the late 80's, and possibly of the early 60's, (when the Hulk persona was still in development). 
The Professor: The "Merged Hulk" of the early 90's, revealed to be a whole new persona in the Paul Jenkins run. 
Banner Hulk: Seen in various periods over the years, most notibly the early 80's, and the middle Bruce Jones' run. 
Mindless Hulk: Seen in the mid 80's, and in the early period of Bruce Jones' run. 
Guilt Hulk: From H3 12-13 
Devil Hulk: From the Paul Jenkins run 
Unleashed Hulk: From the late 90's, and right now. 

Let me know if I've missed anything.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 May 2005 12:26 am    
By shandrakor

Everything there works for me.

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Posted: 13 May 2005 07:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So what changes should we make to calendar entries describing various Hulk personas?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 May 2005 10:54 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
So what changes should we make to calendar entries describing various Hulk personas? 


Here's a "Key" to the name changes we've agreed upon. 

All calender entries with the word: 

"Stupid" Hulk should be changed to "Savage" Hulk 
"Classic" Hulk should be changed to "Savage" Hulk, (I don't know if that term appeared much). 
"Grey" or "Gray" Hulk should be changed to "Joe Fixit" 
"Prof. Hulk" should be changed to "The Professor" 
"Raging Hulk" should be changed to "Guilt Hulk" 
"Snake Hulk" should be changed to "Devil Hulk" 

All of these changes needed are on Pages 1 and 2 of the posted Calender. Pages 3 and 4 of the calender have the Bruce Jones period, and I believe I pretty much referred to the Hulk persona during that time period as "the Hulk" in my reviews, (which should be fine for our purposes, since Jones never clearly defined which Hulk is which...for him, it was just "The Hulk").
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 10:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, folks. The changes will be there in the new posted calendar, except I think I'll keep "Professor Hulk" just to be a little more explicit that it's Hulk we're talking about here, not Charles Xavier or some other character.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 29

Posted: 07 May 2005 12:30 pm    Post subject: GLA #2 placement...
By Kevin W.
Director

Allright, just like the first issue, I have some questions concerning placement... 

When Flatman and Doorman go to New York City, the first place they visit is Thunderbolts headquarters...I thought New Thunderbolts #1 occured AFTER Avengers: Finale...yet the timeframe for this GLA miniseries happens over a 2 week time span right after Avengers #503...yet A:Finale occurs 3 months after Avengers #503... 

We don't actually see any of the New Thunderbolts in this issue though...instead, we see the new Swordsman, (the one under the control of Purple Man) apparently wandering around the T-Bolts headquarters...could this be before new Thunderbolts #1? (maybe Swordsman was doing some recon)? Of course, how did Flatman know about the new T-bolts headquarters anyway? Unless this is after Abe Jenkins was released from prison in New Thunderbolts #1, (after his press conference that is). 

Pg. 15: I have to admit, I know nothing about the "Slingers" title from the late 90's, so is that Slinger in the upper right corner on this page the same one that is mentioned as having been killed in the pages of Wolverine, (in "Enemy of the State")? 

Also on Page 15, we see Arana...so I would dare to say this is after issue #6 of Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #6... 

Also, one of the members of Power Pack, (another title I know nothing about) is in this issue as well...I'm still uncertain about what age the Power Pack members are supposed to be at by now...they're making an awful lot of cameos lately, though. 

It feels like we've entered into a new era in Marvel comics where continuity as a tool for storytelling actually matters to creators again...too bad trying to line up their continuity is proving such a task for us as of late! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 07 May 2005 08:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin, the time between the flashbacks in the GLA series and the current scene in the series is supposed to be "a couple weeks." Don't believe it. We really have to stretch the amount of time that Mr. Immortal is out of it with grief and the GLA is basically non-functioning. That Swordsman appearance at Thunderbolts headquarters was the giveaway. He has to appear in GLA 2 at least after TB2 8, the issue in which I assume he'll join the team. (And you're right, Swordsman's existence does appear to be public knowledge in GLA 2. In fact, Flatman and Doorman think he's Hawkeye!) TB2 4 ties into the "Enemy of the State" storyline, so Wolverine must appear in GLA 2 after W3 27. These storylines take place long after Disassembled and yes, long after A:FINALE. In fact, it's probably just before A4 1, which occurs "six months" after A 503. The six-month timeframe and the two-week timeframe just don't match up, and I'm inclined to go with the former. 

(Oh, and that's little Katie Power beating up AIM agents in GLA 2, although I don't know what codename she has these days.) 

Here are my calendar notes on GLA 1-2 (sans dates), in chronological order. Possible SPOILERS below... 





GLA #1  FB (12p2-16p1) 
One day. The appearance of Vision and Hawkeye here places this flashback before A 500, and Thors presence in classic costume places the flashback between T2 79 (21-24) and T2 80 (7-22)  perhaps around the time he was with the Avengers in XS 21-26. On an animal rights tear, the new Ani-Men attack a modeling shoot in Milwaukee. The Great Lakes Avengers respond, but theyre sidelined by the Avengers. 

GLA #1  FB (16p2-22p3) 
The same night as A 503 (30-31). It must be much more than just a couple weeks before GLA 1-FB (22p4). The Great Lakes Avengers see and hear news coverage of the deaths of Ant-Man, Hawkeye, and Vision and the disbanding of the Avengers (which must be a premature and erroneous report, as the disbanding doesnt occur until A:FINALE). Mr. Immortal picks up the mantle and has his team go out on patrol. They encounter Maelstrom, who kills Dinah Soar and takes off with a large device. Deathurge comes to claim the slain Dinah Soar and Mr. Immortal is distraught. Full moon. 

GLA #2  FB (2p2-4) 
One day, probably a few days after GLA 1-FB (16-22). It must be much more than just a couple weeks before GLA 2. In rainy Milwaukee, the GLA attend Dinah Soars funeral and Mr. Immortal fights Deathurge. 


-- INSERT A BIG GAP HERE -- 


GLA #2  FB (5-7) 
One day. Seeking to transform reality, Maelstrom hires Batroc, Machete, and Zaran to steal an object. With Mr. Immortal still having lost it and Big Bertha never around, Flatman and Doorman decide to go to New York to recruit new members. 

GLA #2  FB (8-22) 
Probably the day after GLA 2-FB (5-7). This flashback must occur after TB2 8 and cannot occur during W3 20-27. In New York, Flatman and Doorman unsuccessfully offer membership to a bunch of heroes, including the Swordsman (whos at Thunderbolts headquarters), Wolverine (who doesnt appear to be a brainwashed assassin), Spidey, Moon Knight, Daredevil, Katie Power, Hercules, Nightcrawler, Iron Fist, Cage, Falcon, Cloak, Dagger, Shang-Chi, Tigra, Wonder Man, Black Bolt, Arana, and others. Squirrel Girl accepts and the three assist Grasshopper in fighting Batroc and company. Grasshopper is killed and the villains escape with their heist. Green grass and trees in New York. Full moon. 

GLA #1  FB (22p4) 
One day. It must be much more than just a couple weeks after GLA 1-FB (16-22). Mr. Immortal puts a gun to his head. It is presumably July 13th, but this is probably topical. 
GLA #1 
The same day as GLA 1-FB (22p4). It is 26 years after GLA 1-FB (3) and must be 18 years after GLA 1-FB (5). Mr. Immortal blows his brains out. 
GLA #2 
The same day as GLA 1. It must be much more than just a couple weeks after GLA 2-FB (1-4). Flatman gets sucked into a vortex. It is presumably July 13th, but this is probably topical.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 May 2005 05:02 pm    
By PaxHouse

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Pg. 15: I have to admit, I know nothing about the "Slingers" title from the late 90's, so is that Slinger in the upper right corner on this page the same one that is mentioned as having been killed in the pages of Wolverine, (in "Enemy of the State")? 
<<<

Nope; this Slinger is PRODIGY and not HORNET {who was killed in W3 #23}...!!  


Quote: 
>>>
Also, one of the members of Power Pack, (another title I know nothing about) is in this issue as well...I'm still uncertain about what age the Power Pack members are supposed to be at by now...they're making an awful lot of cameos lately, though.  
<<<

Even though she's wearing the costume seen within this year's PP Mini; it's best to presume that ENERGIZER's {Katie Power's Past & Current Codename  } Appearance takes place after her recent Cameo {along with the rest of Power Pack} in NEW T-BOLTS #6...
_________________
PaxHouse.

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Posted: 15 May 2005 06:30 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Is there potential to insert a lengthy break into GLA #1 just before they go out on patrol? Mr Immortal turns up and suggests that they go out and be superheroes, but it's fairly obvious that everyone reacts with horror. It could well take him a little while to persuade his devastated teammates to actually go out on patrol again (especially as "the Avengers"). It's awkward, but I can't for the life of me see how the whole story can take place in a period of two weeks immediately following AVENGERS #503. Actually, NEW THUNDERBOLTS could potentially take place before AVENGERS FINALE, but it still seems like a stretch.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 May 2005 10:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, putting the big gap there instead of where I have it would make the references to "couple weeks" correct and would decrease the time Mr. I. is off the deep end. Other opinions?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 30

Posted: 15 May 2005 11:14 pm    Post subject: FIRELORD
By captamr

Classic X-Men #13(pg. 7) is all new material which has additional fight sequence between the X-Men and Firelord. He seems to be the only one omitted: 

FIRELORD/ Pyreus Kril 

T 247 
UX 105 
**CX 13 
**UX 105 
UX 106
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 31

Posted: 19 May 2005 02:09 pm    Post subject: Was it REALLY Daredevil in SS&WP #23?
By John Omohundro

I believe it says so under the "DAREDEVIL (MATTHEW MICHAEL MURDOCK)" entry here, but would anyone know if that was the real Daredevil in the aforementioned issue of SS&WP? 

I seem to recall that Bullseye impersonated DD on at least one occasion. 

Did the issue in question take place during that time period? 

The character seemed to be much more willing to use physical violence to accomplish his goals than the original Daredevil.

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Posted: 19 May 2005 04:30 pm    
By garbonzo

IIRC Daredevil was not being impersonated at this time. This was roughly in the same time-frame as the armored Daredevil look. The Bullseye as Daredevil story arc was many years earlier. 

But i don't have the books in front of me at this time. I could be off by a bit.

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Thread 32

Posted: 17 May 2005 02:16 pm    Post subject: Red Skull Notes
By Enda80

In his entry for Amazing Spider-Man Annual#5, George Olshevksy stated that Albert Malik was the Red Skull in Captain America's Weird Tales#74. The only problem with that is that story takes place in Hades (complete with Charon). 

Contrary to common misconception, that story was not just a dream of Cap's. What happens is that Cap and the Skull fight in Hades, and during their battle, Cap tears off a piece of the Skull's clothing. (Yes, that old clich from ghost stories....and a clich also used in the Frost Giant's story, where the Cimmerian rips off a piece of Atali's dress, and it is found in his hand when the rest find him.) When Cap returns to Earth, he finds that piece of the Skull's clothing in his hand. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/atali.htm 

The Skull is shown in Hades at the beginning of the story. He writes Cap's name in the book of people due to die and go to Hades. Appearing in this story is a figure called the Master Judge. 

It seems odd that this would be an appearance of the Communist Red Skull. As noted, Olshevsky designated it as such. Later, in Official Handbook Update '89#6, in the Red Skull's entry, it was stated that Malik began as the Skull in the 1940's, perhaps to account for Captain America Comics#61, which features a post war Red Skull. 

However, Roy Thomas ignored this with Captain America Annual#13, which strongly implied that Malik began as the Red Skull in 1953 with Young Men#24. 

As it happens, the recent Golden Age handbook in the entry for the Patriot states that as Captain America he faced "a Red Skull impostor". Has anyone seen Cap#61? I guess it could be that the Red Skull in that story died, and thus was the one seen in Hades in Cap#74. That Golden Age handbook lists Malik as beginning as the Skull in 1953 with Young Men#24. 

Incidentally, the Handbook acknowledges the 1950's Cap story with McRooter as an appearance by Albert Malik as the Red Skull.

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Posted: 20 May 2005 05:24 pm    
By Ron Flick

I would suggest that the Red Skull shown in the Hades story is the true Red Skull/ Johann Schmidt. How, you might ask? 

When the Red Skull was thrown into suspended animation after his battle with Captain America in Tales of Suspense, could he not have existed in the realm of Hades those many decades? Does that work in the Marvel Universe? I know Cap/ Steve Rogers lay in a dream-like state during his decades in suspended animation, but is that the case for everyone? Perhaps the Skull actually "died" and went to Hell, only to be resurrected by AIM, years later. 

The other possibility is the Red Skull in Hades is George/John Maxon, who died at the end of his second appearance in Captain America Comics #3 (although he is shown escaping death in the Tales of Suspense version of the story). 

There were definitely Red Skull imposters during and after the war, so any number of possibilities exist, I suppose. 

Ron 

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Thread 33

Posted: 18 May 2005 07:26 pm    Post subject: Fang question; Captain America Annual#6 or.....
By Enda80

Was the Fang from Captain Annual#6 or Captain America Comics#6? 

Incidentally, since Tales of Suspense#82 establishes that he died in the nuking of Hiroshima, he is now a part of the Everwraith, so: 


FANG 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 6 
S&BH6 3-FB-BTS 
S&BH6 1-BTS 
S&BH6 2-BTS 
S&BH6 3-BTS

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Posted: 20 May 2005 05:29 pm    
By Ron Flick

Fang, "Arch-fiend of the Orient", originally appeared in Captain America Comics #6, story #2.

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Thread 34

Posted: 21 May 2005 06:10 am    Post subject: "Untold Tales O'Spidey" additions
By JLH

Here's a bunch of considerations for addition based on comparison to old ASM tales. I'm sure nobody will agree  , but at least I've got three UTSM missing appearances which ARE undisputable!  


MCKEEVER, TINY 
UTSM 20 
**UTSM 22 (asks why Peter is so happy) 
UTSM '97 
**UTSM '96 (is along with Flash when he puts a Kick Me sign on Pete) 
**UTSM 24 (is along with Liz when questioning Flash about his Spidey investigation) 

Now, Tiny has never been established as appearing in the original titles. But ASM 14 and ASM 17 do have fellow schoolmates who look a lot like him. 

ONELLO, JASON 
AAF 17-FB 
**{AAF 15} (Dark haired guy in Flash's group was intended to be Jason, according to UTSM's letters pages) 
AAF 16 
AAF 17 
AAF 18 
**ASM 1 (Darkhaired fellow with Liz in class looks and ACTS like Jason) 
**ASM 2 (Darkhaired guy with Flash & Liz in class) 
**ASM 2/2 (There's a guy with Flash, Liz, and "Sally" in class, but it's iffy) 
**ASM 4 (Several guys hanging out with Liz, Flash, and "Sally" could be him) 
**ASM 5 (There's a guy with Flash & Liz badmouthing Spidey as Jason would, but the haircolor is too light! Later, when Flash is pretending to be Spidey, there's a darkhaired guy who matches Jason's body style and such.) 
UTSM 1 
UTSM 2 
**ASM 7 (There's a darkhaired guy with Flash playing basketball, so that maybe him.) 
UTSM 3 
**ASM 8 (So many of Flash's flunkies appear, that any given one of them SHOULD be Jason) 
UTSM 4 
**ASM 9 (Guy with Flash... what's his hair color?) 
**ASM 10 (Jason?) 
UTSM 5 
UTSM 6 
UTSM 7 
**ASM 12 (Jason?) 
UTSM 8 
... 
UTSM 13-FB 
**ASM 13 (Jason?) 
UTSM 14 
UTSM 15 
UTSM 16 
**ASM 15 (Jason?) 
UTSM:SE 
UTSM 18 
**ASM@ 1 (Jason) 
UTSM 19 
**ASM 17 (Jason) 
UTSM 20 
UTSM 21 
**ASM 18 (Jason) 
UTSM 22 
**ASM 19 (Jason) 
**ASM 20 (Jason?) 
UTSM 23 
... 

AVRIL, SALLY 
... 
AAF 18 
**ASM 1 (Darkhaired girl in class with Liz resembles Sally from AAF 15) 
**ASM 2 (Darkhaired girl hangs out with Liz & Flash in all scenes) 
**ASM 2/2 (Same darkhaired girl with the pair) 
**ASM 3 (Again. She's familiar with Peter, so she might likely be Sally) 
**ASM 4 (Hanging out with Flash & Liz after class) 
**ASM 5 (Again, the token darkhaired hanger on) 
UTSM 1 
UTSM 2 
UTSM 3 
**ASM 8 (Several girls are in Flash & Liz's entorage. But I'm unsure if any have the right hair color. Stupid Essentials!) 
UTSM 4 
... 
UTSM 7 
**ASM 12 (Sally?) 
UTSM 8

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Thread 35

Posted: 22 May 2005 08:47 pm    Post subject: Kraven The Hunter
By captamr

Kraven the Hunter commits suicide in a 6-part saga running through the Spider-Man titles in 1987. The final part takes place in PPTSS 132 with no listing for Kraven. Now I realize that Kraven is already dead here and that there is no actual portrayal of Kravens body; but we have pictures (pg. 7), confession (pg. 7), newspaper headline (pg. 19), and a coffin (pg. 21). Not to mention the whole saga has been planned by Kraven to its finality. He probably should have a BTS in his final chapter: 

KRAVEN THE HUNTER/ Sergei Kravenoff 

WOSM 32 
ASM 294 
**PPTSS 132  BTS 
ASM:SH
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 36

Posted: 20 May 2005 09:02 am    Post subject: Spider-Man/Human Torch #4
By SKleefeld
Director

Reconciling everything that shows up in Spider-Man/Human Torch #4 for definitive placement, the chronological clues that I'm seeing... 

The symbiote Spidey-costume and She-Hulk as a member of the FF both definitively place this after the first Secret Wars. The FF returning from the Secret War occurs in FF 265. But it immediately leads to the team rushing the Invisible Woman to the hospital, where Johnny and She-Hulk stay until FF 268. Spidey comes back in ASM 252. 

Johnny is initially hitting on She-Hulk as if he's a free agent. No mention of Alicia and, in fact, Johnny comments on how he's still hanging around Sharon Selleck. This would strongly suggest placement at least before FF 275, when Johnny and Alicia consumate their relationship. (Okay, yes, DeFalco retconned her into Lyja, but it was really Alicia at the time.) 

Since Spidey is clearly in the symbiote costume, this places him at least before ASM 258, when Reed removes it and places it in Baxter Building storage. Black Cat also seems comfortable and aware of the symbiote costume, which she sees in action for the first time in ASM 257. 

Johnny's unique haircut is one that doesn't show up until FF 276. Prior to that he wears a more classic wavy look. His brief appearance in FF 275, however, shows him with his hair slightly tussled after getting out of bed, so the hair style could possibly be as early as the gap between 274 and 275, but he definitely appears in ASM 258 with the more classic look. I'm thinking this is going to have to be chalked up to artistic license. 

Spidey sustains an arm injury in ASM 256 that carries through to 257. In fact, the fight in which he sustains the injury in the first place continues from 256 until page 20 of 257. (Technically, there is a small break in the fight, but Spidey has a sling made out of webbing that carries through both sequences.) While there's a convenient break there, Peter notes a page or two later that he's still exhausted from his fight with Puma. This end sequence carries through to ASM 258 page 4. 

There's an interlude on page 5, and we return to Peter in his apartment on page 6. This sequence runs through page 10 (with Peter actually sleeping through most of it). There's another break there, but it's certainly implied in the story that it's only long enough for Peter to get from his apartment to the Baxter Building. Johnny greets Spidey with "Long time, no see!" although it's possible that this could be interpretted as sarcasm. Then we have another interlude on pages 13-14 during which time Reed is still supposedly conducting experiments on the costume. When we get back on page 15, we get into the sequence of actually removing the costume. 

So, Spider-Man/Human Torch #4 must occur bewteen ASM 257 page 20 and ASM 258 page 15. There are a couple of breaks in the story, but none that really seem condusive for placement of anything significant. I would suggest placing SMHT 4 during the interlude on ASM 258 pages 13-14. That would give Reed plenty of time to analyze the symbiote and wouldn't leave Spidey and Johnny just hanging around the Baxter Building for an untold amount of time. This would also allow for Peter to get assigned a new Bugle job (photographing the Wakandan Embassy thing) after having been worried about work issues in ASM 258 page 7.

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Posted: 21 May 2005 05:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So, Sean, you're saying that SM/HT 4 should occur sometime in this portion of Spidey's chronology: 
ASM 258 
M/TU 146 
PPTSS@ 4 
PPTSS@ 4/2 
ASM 258 
Any preference where? 

And I suppose that Johnny appears in SM/HT 4 sometime in here: 
FF 270 
FF 358-FB 
ASM 258 

I think that FF 358-FB (or flashbacks) involve Johnny and Alicia/Lyja, so I suppose that SM/HT 4 should go before that, so perhaps between FF 270 and FF 358-FB. 

I have this portion of Spidey's chronology occurring in June, two months after the return from the Secret Wars. So She-Hulk isn't brand-new to the FF, but new enough.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 May 2005 11:46 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So, Sean, you're saying that SM/HT 4 should occur sometime in this portion of Spidey's chronology: 
ASM 258 
M/TU 146 
PPTSS@ 4 
PPTSS@ 4/2 
ASM 258 
Any preference where? 
<<<

Well, I don't have those other two books, so I'm not sure how ASM 258 breaks down relative to them. (Perhaps if we began to include panel listings in the MCP...  ) 

However, since I was looking at placing SM/HT 4 during the last break where Spidey has the symbiote costume, and he spends the rest of the issue as The Amazing Bagman, I would guess that the new listing would look like... 

ASM 258 
M/TU 146 
PPTSS@ 4 
PPTSS@ 4/2 
ASM 258 
SM/HT 4 
ASM 258 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I think that FF 358-FB (or flashbacks) involve Johnny and Alicia/Lyja, so I suppose that SM/HT 4 should go before that, so perhaps between FF 270 and FF 358-FB. 
<<<

The flashback from FF 358 is basically Lyja realizing that she'll have to change tactics and pursue Johnny instead of becoming Ben's girlfriend. The consummation of the relationship still doesn't occur until FF 275. So Johnny's listing would look like... 

FF 270 
FF 358-FB 
ASM 258 
SM/HT 4 
ASM 258

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Posted: 22 May 2005 10:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean, I don't have ASM 258, so I don't know where the break is that's already noted in the MCP. I just assumed it was between pages 13 and 14, where you noted a break for SM/HT 4. It sounds like you're assuming the break noted in the MCP comes before the end of page 13? Can anyone with ASM 258 shed some light on this?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 May 2005 10:27 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

There are actually several breaks in ASM 258 for Peter Parker. The one on pages 13-14 is the last one in which Spidey wears the symbiote costume. We also have breaks on page 5 and between pages 10 and 11. It's possible that the other stories already listed in the MCP occur during that same break that I suggested for SM/HT 4, but I don't have the other issues to say for sure.

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Thread 37

Posted: 18 May 2005 01:40 pm    Post subject: Punisher: The Cell. Is it canon?
By Kevin W.
Director

Having just read the "Punisher: The Cell" one-shot, I'm a bit perplexed. Is it canon or not? 

In the story, Punisher gets himself into prison so he can kill a group of 5 Italian gangsters who were directly responsible for his family's slaying years ago. 

The problem is, didn't Frank kill every single person responsible for his family's death years ago? We may be offered a way out by Frank saying he wanted to gather these 5 criminals together before getting his personal revenge on them. So that might have been why he's taken so long to get around to killing these specific gangsters...but I still thought that all of the mobsters responsible for his families death died years ago. Is this a retcon? 

Another possibility: is this set in the past? Is Ennis retelling the personal vengeance Frank gets to have on the men directly responsible? I don't believe it is...there's numerous references to the killing of his family happening back in 1976, and that seems to have been 'many years ago' before this story...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 18 May 2005 04:57 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

PUNISHER: THE CELL conflicts irreconcilably with established continuity. The established story is that the Punisher's family were killed in the crossfire of a hit on a crooked banker called Forrest Hunt. 

The gunmen who killed the Punisher's family were previously identified as Bruno Costa, Luis Allegre, Byron Hannigan, Kolsky and Skinner. The Punisher slaughtered them all in a flashback in MARVEL SUPER-ACTION vol 1 #1, a one-shot published in 1976. (It's thoroughly obscure stuff, and if it wasn't for the remarkably thorough Punisher bio in his recent Handbook entry, I'd never have pinned them down.) 

Before somebody asks, yes, the Handbook does regard the current ongoing Punisher series as canon. 

THE CELL is so far out of line with established history, however, that I'm inclined just to disregard it. In fairness, I suspect that's possibly one of the reasons why it's a Max one-shot rather than a story running in the regular title. 

Or perhaps it'll be validated by HOUSE OF M, etc etc.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 19 May 2005 04:05 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I've been thinking it over, and I've come to agree with Paul O. Unless this retcon sticks, it should be treated as non-canon. The only problem I see is that Frank's description of how his family died matches his narrative from Punisher MAX #1. But that story didn't mention the gangsters seen in this one shot.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 May 2005 04:46 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
PUNISHER: THE CELL conflicts irreconcilably with established continuity. The established story is that the Punisher's family were killed in the crossfire of a hit on a crooked banker called Forrest Hunt. 

The gunmen who killed the Punisher's family were previously identified as Bruno Costa, Luis Allegre, Byron Hannigan, Kolsky and Skinner. The Punisher slaughtered them all in a flashback in MARVEL SUPER-ACTION vol 1 #1, a one-shot published in 1976. 
<<<

There's also the story in Punisher War Journal #1-3. I can't think of the names and details off hand.

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Posted: 22 May 2005 09:15 am    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/costabruno.htm

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Posted: 22 May 2005 09:16 am    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/olivir.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2005 10:16 am    
By jephyork
Director

What about them, John? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2005 01:25 am    
By JLH

Enda, do you do anything but cut and paste MarvUnApp links and text? Seriously, it's ALL you ever do here.

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 17 May 2005 08:06 pm    Post subject: Classic X-Men #14
By captamr

Classic X-Men # 14 again provide new material interspersed between the pages of UX 107. On pg. 15 (new material) Cyclops and Phoenix appear in the Starjammers view screen and are the only X-Men presented on that page. This is correctly listed for Cyclops, but Phoenix needs the additional interjections: 

PHOENIX II 

UX 108  FB 
UX 107 
CX 14 
UX 107 
**CX 14 
**UX 107 
UX 108 

The backup story in #14 is Lilandras origin story in detail showcasing her initial appearance in UX 97 and flashback in UX 107. In #107, we see headshot of Professor X in her minds eye and as this does not warrant an appearance, perhaps a BTS? In CX 14, she is completely consumed by the Professors psyche to the point where she cannot walk on crippled legs  Shouldnt this also count as at least a BTS listing for the Professor in CX 14 placed around the time of Lilandras first contact in UX 97?
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 18 May 2005 05:36 pm    Post subject: Assuming that you say the Prof is BTS in the backup ...
By Ocean Doot

... would it fall near UX 97 in his chronology, or right after UX 65? One thing I have to confess has never been entirely clear to me regarding the second story in CX 14 is whether this is happening immediately after the events of UX 65 or immediately prior to the Prof having his dreams (which, come to think of it, would in that case put it at around UX 94, since I always got the sense that his nightmares were the reason he summoned Moira from her island -- and she receives the summons circa UX 94, in the new pages of CX 2). 

Jason

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Posted: 20 May 2005 09:38 pm    
By captamr

I would question the Professors appearance in CX 14/2 and UX 107  FB on a couple of points. I would strongly support a BTS, but again around the time of the Professors dreams which are not immediately known until UX 97. 

First, UX 107  FB illustrates Lilandras capture by her brother DKren, and eventual escape aboard the scouter, and her revelation of Prof. X as she is drawn to Earth. CX 14 occurs during this time and gives further details to the melding of Lilandras and Xavier s psyches. Again, this should be a BTS for Xavier here. 

The placement for this listing would seem to be when the Professor is having his nightmares. He dreams of the massive battle and the escaping scouter and finally sees the figure within the ship  the helmeted Lilandra. I thought for months that Xavier would be having a torrid affair with some bug creature, never realizing that Lilandra was wearing a helmet. The dreams and visions are first revealed in UX 97 and Lilandra dons the helmet in CX 14/2. It seems to fit nicely here. 

I would suggest that the Znox invasion and Xavier planetary mindmeld to ward them off provided the initial impetus for the linking of Lilandras and Xaviers minds, so that when the actual link occurs on Lilandras ship it is a primary image among all the others about Xavier and his life and his X-Men. 

I would also suggest that Xaviers revelation was slower process occurring in stronger and stronger dreams since his mental state is more adept at handling psychic takeovers. This is the time that he believes his sanity is questionable and he contacts Moira. He finally succumbs as Lilandras ship gets closer to Earth. For Lilandra CX 14/2 shows her entire range of exposure to Prof. Xs life as she becomes one with his conscience. I believe you cant go by what she is saying since she appears to be jumping around the Prof.s history as she incorporates the Prof.s psyche, but rather stick to the physical aspects - the scouter and her donning the helmet - to place this scene chronologically.
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 24 May 2005 10:46 pm    Post subject: Classic X-Men #15
By captamr

This continues the additions to Phoenixs chronology in CX 15. Pg. 15, pn. 6 returns to reprinted material from UX 108, but pg. 17, 18, and part of 19 is original illustrating the dichotomy of the entity. It appears that only Phoenix is missing double entries required here with Cyclops and Corsair listed correctly: 

PHOENIX II 

UX 107 
UX 108 
CX 15 
**UX 108 
**CX 15 
UX 109  FB 
UX 108
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 39

Posted: 22 May 2005 09:41 pm    Post subject: Placement of Marvel Team-Up #1
By cnowlin

Hi- 

I'm new here but have been using the site's help to read my way through Spider-Man and have a concern about Marvel Team-Up #1. It is currently placed after ASM #94 and before #95. Yet this is after Gwen left Peter and went to Europe. In MTU #1 however, he comments on being on his way to spend Xmas with Gwen and all indications are that there relationship is hunky-dory. I was thinking it may be better off sometime after ASM #98, where they reunite. 

Thanks

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Posted: 22 May 2005 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The MCP's placement comes from The Official Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man #4, in which George Olshevsky notes in the entry for ASM 94: 

"The combination, in the next issue, of Joe Robertson's remarks about the Daily Bugle 'playing Santa Claus' and the fact that Peter Parker has no classes, allowing him to travel to London, indicates that Christmas of Peter's sophomore year in college takes place sometime after the story in this issue [ASM 94] and just before the story in the next issue [ASM 95]. Spider-Man and the Human Torch battle the Sandman in MARVEL TEAM-UP #1 on the eve of that Christmas." 

Olshevsky reiterated this in The Official Marvel Index to Marvel Team-Up #1 in the entry for M/TU 1: 

"This story must take place on Christmas Eve of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college, which occurs in between AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #94 and #95." 

To answer your question, Olshevsky further states in that entry... 
"When this story [M/TU 1] occurs, Gwen Stacy is in London following the death of her father, the late George Stacy, and consequently Spider-Man's thoughts of dating her after the conclusion of this story are all topical references. She is on Peter's mind because he misses her very much, but he does not have the time to travel to London until his Christmas vacation, after Christmas (in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #95). Since this story [M/TU 1] was published many months after the story in which Gwen returns from London (in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #98), it would have been incongruous to have kept Peter's thoughts and dialogue as if Gwen were still absent." 

So it looks like Marvel decided to ignore some dialog for the sake of making the calendar references match up. Hmmm...
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 25 May 2005 06:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 22 May 2005 11:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That's -- ugh -- that right there is why I really don't like the Indexes sometimes. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 May 2005 11:24 pm    
By cnowlin

Wow. That was a fast and thorough reply. You people here are awesome! I'm trying to read myself the complete Spiderman and Avengers at present and would be lost without this site

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Thread 40

Posted: 24 May 2005 11:38 pm    Post subject: Avengers #282
By captamr

In the midst of the Avengers battle with the Olympian Gods (#281  285), A 282 contains a big flashback that doesnt look like a flashback. She Hulk and Captain Marvel inform the newly returned Namor recent events. During the tale, scenes are revealed which follow directly from the final page of A 281starting on pg. 13, pn. 4 of A 282. This effects the listings of: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA, CAPTAIN MARVEL, BLACK KNIGHT, THOR 

A 281 
**A 282 - FB 
A 282 
A 283 



Zeus and Ares appear only in the FB in this issue so their listings should be adjusted accordingly: 

ZEUS, ARES 

A 281 
A 282  omit 
**A 282  FB 
A 283 


Again, between story and art  some of the best Avengers ever!
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 41

Posted: 23 May 2005 09:01 pm    Post subject: Anansi and Moses question
By Enda80

Quick question; if Anansi (spider deity) ever gets an entry, would you go with him as the same as the unnamed deity seen in Thor I#398? They do look very similar. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bulukuag.htm 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anansism.htm 

Also, does Moses deserve an entry? This Hebrew Hitler has had at least two appearances (his battle with the Sphinx as seen in Nova I#7 and New Warriors I#12) and was seen in Hulk II#257 fb, so I would guess he might deserve an entry. 

Also, Marvel Preview #19 established that Moses' staff eventually came into the possession of Solomon Kane. Kane used this staff in many stories, including the Sword of Solomon Kane mini-series. So Moses has had some additional impact. 

If Moses gets an entry: 

MOSES [HEBREW PROPHET] 
NO 7-FB 
H2 257-FB

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Posted: 23 May 2005 09:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Did you really just equate Moses to Hitler? 

This religio-mania of yours is starting to get really out of hand, John. Dial it back, would you? 


On a chronology note, I disagree that Moses' staff coming into someone else's possession gives Moses any "impact" -- at least as far as BTS appearances go. That's like crediting the Torpedo every time Turbo shows up, just because it's the same armor. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2005 10:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Are you trolling, John? Is that it? Are you trying to stir up trouble here? Why don't you toddle on off to your other haunt, and post your message of love over there...

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 May 2005 10:46 pm    
By Enda80

Since Ramses II was identified in the Official Handbook as the Pharaoh in this story, and his death was shown in fb in Hulk II#257, maybe 

RAMSES II [PHARAOH] 
NO 7-FB 
H2 257-FB 

NO 7 features the battle with the Sphinx where Moses turned his stick into a snake, while Hulk II#257 shows the Israelites and Moses parting the sea. It took an unrelated book to get the rest of the story. 

By the way, New Warriors did not closely follow the Nova story. He already had his costume before he lost to Moses and found the Ka stone. 

The letters page to Doctor Strange III#31 explains that the Sphinx never had magic powers, he used his Caretakers of Arcturus powers (see Doc III#27/2) to pull of his stunts.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 May 2005 11:03 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Here's where I start being a really nitpicky mod. 

Quote: 
>>>
MOSES [HEBREW PROPHET] 
RAMSES II [PHARAOH] 
<<<

I'm not sure why you think we need to put their titles in brackets. We only do that for alien races. 


Quote: 
>>>
It took an unrelated book to get the rest of the story. 
<<<

I wasn't aware that the "Nova" comic was required to show the entirety of the Biblical story. 


Quote: 
>>>
The letters page to Doctor Strange III#31 explains that the Sphinx never had magic powers, he used his Caretakers of Arcturus powers (see Doc III#27/2) to pull of his stunts. 
<<<

How, exactly, is that relevant to his chronology? 

John, I think you need reminding that this Message Board -- and especially this particular forum -- are here to serve as a place to discuss and debate characters' chronologies. That's it. If you want to talk about how a Doctor Strange letters page "established" that a character had different powers, or if you want to talk about your own personal take on religion -- there's the Chat Forum if you must, and there's plenty of other message boards out there if Chat isn't to your liking. 

It's getting harder and harder to wade through your posts these days to find the bits where you actually suggest chronological changes, and I think you need to take a step back, re-read what you're about to post, and do a little proofreading, focusing and polishing before you hit "post". 

And for crying out loud, I don't care what Bible passage you're looking at -- the words "Hebrew" and "Hitler" should NEVER touch one another in the same sentence like that. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 May 2005 04:52 am    Post subject: To squelch a claim
By Enda80

Kind of tired when I wrote that, and know I recall why I wrote that: 

some people have come away with the idea that the sorcerer who creates the Claw of Bast in Before the FF:Reed Richards might have been the Sphinx. However, this would not work for the reason stated above: the Sphinx did not have true magical powers. Since the Sphinx came up during the post, I decided this would be a good time to bring this up lest someone erreoneously attempt to add a scene from Before the Fantastic Four someday. A good time to squelch a claim.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2005 07:10 am    
By jephyork
Director

In other words, in a post devoted to "Anansi and Moses", you're going to randomly toss in the backhanded implication that the Sphinx did not appear in the BFF:RR series ... without actually using that series title at all. Even though nobody here is claiming that he DOES appear. 

You think this is a good time -- and a good WAY -- to give us this information? You think we'll decipher what you're implying, and then remember that factoid for the potential day when someone might suggest that the Sphinx does appear there? 

I'd say a good time to "squelch the claim" is when someone's actually making it. 

Any thoughts on the REST of the stuff the Admin and I had to say, John? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 May 2005 10:15 am
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Also, does Moses deserve an entry? This Hebrew Hitler has had at least two appearances... 
<<<

Uh... right. 

When we asked you to do a little more than cut and paste from other websites, this isn't quite what we had in mind.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 May 2005 06:42 pm    
By garbonzo

"Also, Marvel Preview #19 established that Moses' staff eventually came into the possession of Solomon Kane. Kane used this staff in many stories, including the Sword of Solomon Kane mini-series. So Moses has had some additional impact." 


Speaking of chat, can I count this as another vote in the column for an eventual chronologizing of artifacts?  
garbonzo

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Posted: 24 May 2005 07:01 pm    
By Enda80

George Olshevksy started to do that a little bit with the Serpent Crown in the early to mid 1980's published indexes, did a lot more with the graphic album indexes of the late 1980's, then seems to have cut down with the 1990's indexes. 

Of cours, the problem is: what items to track? Not much point in tracking Captain America's shield or Mjolnir, but the Zodiac Key or Scorpio Key might be of interest.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2005 10:53 pm    Post subject: Sprucing up the Sphinx's listing
By Enda80

New Warriors#12 is partially a retelling of the Sphinx's battle with Moses from Nova I#7, though there is new material. However, more interesting is the Sphinx's origin in Doctor Strange III#27/2. That revealed he gained his pre-Ka stone powers from the Caretakers of Arcturus. 

SPHINX 
**DRSTR3 27/2-FB 
**NO 7-FB 
NW 12-FB 
{NO 6} 
NO 7 
NO 10 
............ 

By the way, how in the world do you deal with the fact that Galactus sent the Sphinx back in time so he co-existed with his past counterpart? In what issue was this shown? 

It reminds me of X-Men Forever when time-travellers were dropped in to their past bodies.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2005 11:18 pm    
By jephyork
Director

FF #213, I think. 

Good to hear that you've learned your lesson. Thanks for the insightful feedback. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2005 08:24 am    
By Enda80

SPHINX 
**DRSTR3 27/2-FB 
**NO 7-FB 
**M/TIO 91 
NW 12-FB 
{NO 6} 
NO 7 
NO 10 
............ 

Actually, it was MTIO#91. Since the Sphinx appears in that issue also as his native temporal counterpart of the past, this would seem to fit.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2005 10:12 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

No, it was FF #213 as Jeph noted. I've got a review of it at my site... 
http://www.ffplaza.com/library/?issue=ff213

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Posted: 19 May 2005 10:41 am    Post subject: Euroforce
By Paul O'Brien
Director

In a rather surprising move, this week's OFFICIAL HANDBOOK includes a profile for Euroforce. This seems to be the first time that Marvel have expressly acknowledged Euroforce as canonical. I gather their appearances are restricted to a shortlived title called EUROPA published by Marvel Italia in 1996. I rather assume that none of us have copies to analyse, but it can't hurt to ask...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2005 10:17 am    
By Todd

I've got the first two of the six issues (0 and 1) of EUROPA. I'll try to post analyses of them early next week. Of course, if anyone else has the whole series, I'll be glad to let them have it. (My Italian not being what it was, three years ago, when I bought them.) 

Todd

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2005 10:40 am    
By Dormammu

EUROPA was a 5 issues limited series (from April to October 1996). I read it a lot of time ago. Just remember Euroforce fighting against AIM and Iron Man appearing in Gemini's stories (each issue of EUROPA also carried a 22 pages feature starring a team called Gemini). 

EUROPA's editors said both Gemini and Euroforce were strictly connected to Iron Man's continuity.

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 14 May 2005 04:55 pm    Post subject: Jameson question; any other war-time appearances?
By Enda80

A Night Raven story casts an odd light on early Jameson appearances. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/jamesonoldman.htm 

The first indication of this came in Marvel Super-Heroes (UK) #394. In a story presumably set in real time in 1983, Sadie referenced the Daily Bugle of the early 1940's: 

"The Bugle never used to pay a hell of a lot back in those days. Not when old Jameson was running the show. 
What? No, not the Jameson who's editing the Bugle now. I'm talking about his father. He used to be a real tightwad. We never once got a check out of him on time." 


Any other wartime Daily Bugle Jameson appearances?

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2005 08:41 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

The only thing I can think of, FWIW, is a very young JJJ shows up in Marvels #1 as a budding reporter. 

Probably not exactly what you were looking for, but... 

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2005 10:03 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2004 #1 shows JJJ as a superhero-worshiping kid during WWII.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 May 2005 10:06 pm    Post subject: Well, then we can throw out SGTF 110 and CA 155-FB-BTS
By Enda80

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
CA 155-FB-BTS should be removed 
SGTF 110 also should be removed 
M/TALES 235/2 
PPTSS@ 11/4 
ASM -1 

The prevailing view is that J. Jonah Jameson was not an adult during the 1930's and 1940's, based on what Mr. Bourcier mentioned and what Young Avengers#1 established (that he and other kids were dismayed when they found out about Bucky's death, presumably due to that newspaper article mentioned in Captain America#155). I would say that we can chuck out the top two entries as belonging to the otherwise unnamed "Old Man" Jameson. Does "Old Man" Jameson deserve an entry? 

By the way, if he does I am told that in Cap#255, a somewhat Jameson looking reporter with crew cut who almost gets a picture of Cap's unmasked face.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2005 11:11 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm curious, just how DO we reconcile the idea of an adult Jameson in the WW2 era, (as shown in Marvels #1) with the young kid Jameson of Marvel Holiday Special 2004 and Young Avengers? 

Or is this in the same boat as the appearance of a young "Billy Connors" in the recent Spectacular Spiderman #11-13, (when we've seen him as an older teenager before now, I believe)? In other words: just ignore it and move on?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2005 05:04 am    
By Enda80

Marvel Super-Heroes (UK)#394 solves the problem. In a Night Raven story, the following dialogue occurs: 

"The Bugle never used to pay a hell of a lot back in those days. Not when old Jameson was running the show. 
What? No, not the Jameson who's editing the Bugle now. I'm talking about his father. He used to be a real tightwad. We never once got a check out of him on time." 

This story invovled Night Raven, a hero of the pre-modern era, as a journalist reminsces about the 1930's and 1940's. This establishes that any apparent appearances of J. Jonah Jameson in World War II era stories refers to "Old Man" Jameson, not J. Jonah Jameson. 

As I suggested, Sgt Fury#110 and Cap#155 should be removed from J. Jonah Jameson's listing, and an entry for "Old Man" Jameson could be created with this note: 

Jameson, "Old Man" 
Note: MSH (UK)#394 establishes that J. Jonah Jameson was not editor of the Daily Bugle during the 1930's or 1940's, but rather an "Old Man" Jameson was, who may have been his father. 
MARVELS 1 
CA 255-FB 
SGTF 110 
CA 155-FB-BTS 


I have some of the Night Raven text stories, so I will check them to see if "Old Man" Jameson appeared in any of them. Sadly, the Savage Sword of Conan (UK) run which included original Night Raven text stories has remained elusive, though anyone wants to try to find them, I can give you the e-mail address of a dealer in Ireland. 

(Captain America I#255 (fb) ?) - He's not clearly seen, but there is a journalist with a crew cut and a full moustache--more full than I've ever seen Jonah's--who nearly catches a picture of Captain America's face when his early skull-cap type helmet is knocked aside in battle with some Fifth Columnists.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2005 08:03 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Super-Heroes (UK)#394 solves the problem. In a Night Raven story, the following dialogue occurs: 
<<<

Do you have Marvel Super-Heroes (UK) #394? 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
This story invovled Night Raven, a hero of the pre-modern era, as a journalist reminsces about the 1930's and 1940's. This establishes that any apparent appearances of J. Jonah Jameson in World War II era stories refers to "Old Man" Jameson, not J. Jonah Jameson. 
<<<

Where are we getting the "Old Man" part from? 


watching: a hep cat buying a pussywillow

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Posted: 15 May 2005 11:17 am    
By Enda80

I do not have Marvel Super-Heroes (UK)#394; however, the Spider-Man 2005 Handbook confirms the above info for its J. Jonah Jameson entry. 

"Old Man" was a nickname for the earlier Jameson, reported in the Spider-Man 2005 Handbook.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2005 08:29 am    
By Enda80

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/rododom/JJJ.jpg 


Incidentally, here is a shot of the reporter in Captain America I#255. He does strongly resemble Jameson.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2005 04:50 pm    
By jephyork
Director

He also strongly resembles Doctor Strange. Perhaps the good surgeon moonlighted as a wartime correspondant? 

What exactly does the Spider-Man 2005 Handbook say about this other Jameson? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2005 05:14 pm    
By Enda80

Spider-Man Handbook 2005 

It mentions that (J. Jonah) Jameson worked as a copy boy for the Daily Bugle "formerly edited by old man Jameson, whom some presume to have been his father".

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2005 05:17 pm    
By loki

The Night Raven story details the widow of Bugle reporter "Skip" Daily giving an interview to Rolling Stone magazine about her husband and his link to the mysterious 1930s vigilante. She mentions that Skip's editor during WWII, Jameson, was a tightwad (or words to that effect); the Rolling Stone guy asks her if that is the same Jameson who edits the paper now, and she replies that the current editor is the former one's son, but that she heard from her husband's colleagues that he is as bad as his father was. 

The writer (Alan Moore) clearly intended for Old Jameson to be JJJ's father; however a story published in the U.S. (subsequently, iirc) by another writer who understandably didn't know about this little revelation established that JJJ's father wasn't a newspaperman. The simplest way to reconcile this information was to assume that Skip's widow (and by extension the reporters) had gotten the relationship between JJJ and "Old Jameson" wrong - either the matching surname is coincidental, and people just assumed the two men to be related, or else the relationship is something unspecified other than father and son (uncle and nephew, second cousins, whatever). The JJJ entry in the Handbook merely confirmed that many assumed JJJ was related to "Old Man Jameson", without actually saying whether he was or wasn't.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2005 05:39 pm    
By Enda80

I would guess that the reporter in Cap#255 was intended to be Jameson, and that the shadows on his face make it seem as if he has a fuller moustache.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2005 05:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Those DO NOT look like "shadows" to me. They look like a fuller mustache. You'd do better to argue that Jameson might have altered his mustache style over the years.  

The artist has a pretty bustling forum on the old interweb these days ... why don't you post over there and ask him if he intended to draw a young Jameson? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 May 2005 06:00 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5855&TPN=1 

THEN it was Jonah. NOW isn't. 

A response from John Byrne. So, yes, that was intended to be J. Jonah Jameson, but now it has to be Old Man Jameson.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2005 10:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

More interesting retconning to preserve the ever-present setting of the slow-moving MU. In my blissful world in which it's only the early '80s in the MU  having JJJ as a reporter during WWII is no problem. It's that pesky kid from M/HOL2004 that's the problem...but then I can pretend those posters in young JJJ's room really depict WWI heroes. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2005 03:56 pm    
By Enda80

Update; the letters page to Cap#219 confirms that Jameson was publisher when the story about the disappearance of Captain America went out.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2005 07:10 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
More interesting retconning to preserve the ever-present setting of the slow-moving MU. In my blissful world in which it's only the early '80s in the MU  having JJJ as a reporter during WWII is no problem. It's that pesky kid from M/HOL2004 that's the problem...but then I can pretend those posters in young JJJ's room really depict WWI heroes.  
<<<

You'd better look @ the opening sequence of YA1 then  

http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/marvel/youngav1/

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2005 10:03 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Seen it. Also had a discussion in the forum about it, although it concerned Bucky's age more than JJJ's. So an "extremely young" (compared to now) adult JJJ, married and with a son John, wanted to be Bucky. Maybe that's best left alone. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2005 07:21 pm    
By Somebody

"Every KID did" 

To have JJJ be old enough to serve, even; let alone be married,would be to gratuitoiusly misread that scene.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2005 10:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, and young man too. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2005 10:22 am    
By Somebody

You like taking hammers and chisels to stories to reshape them against what they actually say, don't you?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2005 11:17 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It IS a bit of a strain, Paul, surely. We're now in 2005. World War II ended 60 years ago. Is Jameson really meant to be pushing 80 years old? He's certainly never written that way. I don't think it's unreasonable by this stage for his WWII flashback appearances to be falling by the wayside - he'd hardly be the first character where this had happened.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2005 11:32 am    
By Enda80

As noted, they will just have to go to "Old Man" Jameson. 

There are not too many anway. What, four or five? 

Same thing with Ben Grimm in Captain Savage or Reed Richards in Sgt. Fury.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2005 11:34 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Er, no, they'd be deleted entirely rather than being reassigned to another character. This isn't post-Crisis DC, after all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2005 09:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It IS a bit of a strain, Paul, surely. We're now in 2005.  
<<<

Yes...WE are. 

Quote: 
>>>
You like taking hammers and chisels to stories to reshape them against what they actually say, don't you? 
<<<

I don't take hammer and chisels to the stories. Quite the opposite: Marvel does that trick whenever they pull retcons to keep current stories ever "current," despite the slower passage of Marvel time. 

And I see no one's really paying attention to that winky icon... 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 May 2005 04:10 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I know we've been through this before, but the sliding timeline is part of the ground rules of the Marvel Universe. I just don't see how it can sensibly be argued that we're meant to be reading these stories on the basis that World War II was forty years ago. It certainly isn't Marvel's interpretation of their own universe - when did MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION happen, if you're right? - and it doesn't reflect any story published beyond the very, very early days of the MU (when a handful of writers seemed to think they were working in real time).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Posted: 27 May 2005 01:06 pm    Post subject: Mister Sinister bts in Bushwacker's early....
By Enda80

In Punisher War Journal#12, page 2, in a thought balloon, Bushwacker reveals that the Marauders hired him to kill mutants in his early Daredevil appearances. So should Mister Sinister get a bts?

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 May 2005 04:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Unless Bushwhacker got specific about exactly which character or characters hired him, no. I don't want to *assume* that Sinister -- or any Marauder -- was the one hiring him unless we're explicitly told. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Posted: 27 May 2005 06:30 pm    Post subject: Handbook FAQ answers questions!
By jephyork
Director

So after months of criticism from the online community, Eric J. Moreels has set up a FAQ page about the current crop of Handbooks. It's some interesting reading. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/ohotmufaq.htm 

In the Errata section he reiterates the point that, although the Handbooks are mainly a secondary source, they CAN reveal new, canon, information -- and some things that may look like errors are there because the Handbook editors approved them. 

For example, since the "Erista" information was allowed to be printed again in the Wolverine Handbook (after being loudly derided as an error in the X-Men Handbook), it can be taken as read that it has editorial approval. It's newly-revealed information about Wolverine's son, yes, but it's now canon. 

Also, apparently one of the Handbooks revealed that the Sunpyre appearing in AF3 #9 was a *new* character -- NOT the deceased Sunpyre from UX #406. This information was provided by Alpha Flight writer Scott Lobdell -- and is canon. So even though it's never stated in a comic, we now know that that's Sunpyre II there. 

Also, two of the students appearing in Grant Morrison's X-Men run have now been named, solely in the Teams Handbook -- Forearm (II) and Longneck. They're the ones with the long arms and long neck. I guess we can now put them on the MCP... 

Interesting. My opinion of these new Handbooks has gone up considerably since reading this ... I may have to start collecting them. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 May 2005 09:25 pm    
By Somebody

Actually, that's snood's site (won't try to spell his real surname). If Morales had set it up, one presumes it would be @ X-Fan.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 May 2005 10:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I tend to agree that new, canon information can be found in the official Handbooks, as long as they don't contradict the books themselves without explanation. 

My personal gripe with this particular snippet of information is that Eric insists that there's in-story evidence to support the claim, but won't cite his source. 


watching: ultimate super vixens

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 12:26 am    
By jannepie

Yes but imagine all the things made clear with Handbooks, for example, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch being in suspended animation as babies, thus making it possible for their mother to have been in Auswitz. 

Could that Erista thing been revealed in a trading card? Comixfan has taken information from them too.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 01:25 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jannepie wrote: 
>>>
Could that Erista thing been revealed in a trading card? Comixfan has taken information from them too. 
<<<

What's your point? Yes, it could be, but since Eric doesn't say, we'll never know. *My* point is, if it's a card, tell us so. If it's revealed for the first time in the Handbook, own up to it. 

It's a moot point. It's in the Handbook. Unless there's something in the comics themselves to discredit it or contradict it, it's canon. He's contended for many moons that Wolverine has a child named Erista, but to my knowledge, has never provided the evidence to back it up. If Kurt Busiek had told me during his fan days that Spider-Man had fought a villain named Scorcher while Peter Parker was in high school, I would have said, "No, Kurt, you're wrong." 

If Kurt had then gone on to say, "No, he absolutely did. Absolutely. I remember reading the story," then I would have said, "What issue was it in?" 

If Kurt had replied, "I don't remember, but I know, without a doubt, that it happened," I would have said, "Well, Kurt, without any evidence, you're not going to convince many people of that." 

As it turned out, Kurt went on to write UTSM 1 and 14, with appearances by Scorcher. If Kurt had then looked me up and said, "Ah ha, I told you so. Spider-Man met the Scorcher, because UTSM 1 and 14 say that he did," then my respect for Kurt would have dropped quite a bit. 

Fortunately, Kurt and I never had any of those conversations. 

Just my pet peeve. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 28 May 2005 06:15 am  
By Enda80

The Erista name was also used in the Nick Fury:Secret War one-shot, whic his set up as a collection of files from the SHIELD database.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:17 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

This particular FAQ page doesn't make any claims to there being any source for Erista. 

It's a remarkably odd page, though. Incredibly defensive. Mind you, I've got that sense repeatedly from people involved in the current Handbook.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 May 2005 07:20 am    
By comixfan

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So after months of criticism from the online community, Eric J. Moreels has set up a FAQ page about the current crop of Handbooks. It's some interesting reading. 
<<<

Actually, I didn't set that up. My fellow OHOTMU writer Stuart did. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
If Morales had set it up, one presumes it would be @ X-Fan. 
<<<

That's "Moreels" and "Comixfan", thanks  


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
but since Eric doesn't say, we'll never know. 
<<<

I have answered the question of where the Erista name came from: I can't recall. My collection has waxed and waned over recent times, and I'm unable to recall the exact reference for the name. It's quite possible the name came from a trading card, or an RPG supplement or some other comparatively obscure reference. 

What I am certain of is that I have never claimed to have made the name up, despite what some have said.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:26 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

comixfan wrote: 
>>>
I have answered the question of where the Erista name came from: I can't recall.  
<<<

That's not an answer. That's merely a statement that you're unable to answer the question. 

With all due respect, I simply cannot believe that a genuine source exists for this information and yet nobody, even you, can find it. It defies credibility. You may be honestly mistaken, but it's virtually inconceivable that you could be right.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:33 am    
By comixfan

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
You may be honestly mistaken, but it's virtually inconceivable that you could be right. 
<<<

Ouch.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:36 am    
By rhod

I agree with Paul. What with all the fanboys on this site alone, not to mention all the hundreds (thousands?) of marvel zombies on other sites, it's gotta be next to impossible that someone at some point wouldn't have spoken up and said "Oh yeah, I remember that too", no matter how obscure the original source.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:41 am    
By comixfan

Again, I didn't make the name up, so it definitely came from another source.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Or you're mistaken. Or you misread something which you half-remembered. Eric, if this source existed, somebody would have found it by now! You've been making this claim for years!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:49 am    
By comixfan

When I was writing the bios for the X-Men Encyclopedia, I had a bunch of mini-bios on my PC's harddrive that had originally been written for (then) X-Fan and in the Wolverine one Erista's name was listed. Whatever the source, it would have to be an old one given the time those original mini-bios were written (as X-Fan/ComiX-Fan/Comixfan's been around for some 9-10 years now).

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Eric, you're basically asking to take on faith the flawlessness of research that you can't even remember doing, despite the fact that nobody has ever been able to find a source for this information - and, for that matter, despite the fact that you've always shown a tendency to draw on sources which are not generally acknowledged as canon, such as trading cards. But not even the most broadminded definition of canon has ever succeeded in finding any source at all for this, other than your own note, which you can't remember making, that you read something along those lines a decade ago! 

It doesn't exist, Eric! You made a mistake! Happens to the best of us, but I just don't understand why you're so determined not to acknowledge the possbility. In a world where people are solemnly analysing the continuity implications of comics given away by Pizza Hut fifteen years ago, it just isn't credible that nobody else even remembers seeing this information. 

I mean, with the best will in the world, it's not like your X-Men entry in Teams 2005 is exactly flawless.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 May 2005 08:18 am    
By comixfan

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It doesn't exist, Eric! You made a mistake!  
<<<

If it didn't exist, Paul, I wouldn't be so adamant about this. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I mean, with the best will in the world, it's not like your X-Men entry in Teams 2005 is exactly flawless. 
<<<

How so? Definitely curious to know, as Mike Marts and I went back and forth over the list a fair bit until he okayed the final version that saw print.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 08:22 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The list of members is overinclusive to the point of sheer absurdity. Forearm? All of the New Mutants? Fantomex? These guys are not X-Men on any sensible definition.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 08:27 am    
By comixfan

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The list of members is overinclusive to the point of sheer absurdity. 
<<<

I wanted to ensure the list was as inclusive as possible in terms of accuracy. Speaking as a lifelong X-Men fan, I wouldn't call it absurd at all. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Forearm? All of the New Mutants? Fantomex? These guys are not X-Men on any sensible definition. 
<<<

Yep, they are. Forearm (as in the student with long arms, not the MLF member) and Fantomex were members of the "Street Team" Cyclops assembled during Morrison's Planet X arc. 

All the New Mutants briefly graduated to become X-Men to save the team from Mojo in Uncanny Annual #10. 

Any other questions I'd be happy to answer. Fire away! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 08:28 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The fact that somebody hovers around as a guest star or a member of a supporting cast for one episode, or that another group arbitrarily declares itself to be the X-Men, does not constitute membership of the X-Men. If that's the definition that you're working by - and it would appear that it is - then yes, it's absurd.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 08:30 am    
By comixfan

No, the prime definition I worked off was recruitment by an existing X-Men member. Cyclops recruited the Street Team from Planet X. Jean recruited the Eve of Destruction team. Cyclops and Jean recruited the Astonishing team. Forge and Banshee recruited the Muir Island team. 

The only exception to that was the New Mutants, but they graduated to X-Men status even if just for one story. 

If I was working off the "hovering around" definition that you pointed out, then the list would have been even longer to include characters like Carol Danvers, Fiz, Trish Tilby, X-23 etc. Since they're not listed that's clearly not the definition I worked from. 

And again, each and every member on that list was okayed by Mike Marts, so that to me makes it doubly official 

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 08:40 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Okay, I'll grant you that that's a slightly more reasonable definition to be working from. But I'd strongly dispute that it results in an entry which gives readers the information they're actually looking for. I don't think these are characters who would be regarded as X-Men by the other X-Men or by the overwhelming majority of readers.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 May 2005 08:50 am    
By comixfan

In hindsight, the X-Men team list should have been presented as the Defenders team list was with distinct sections for the differing degrees of membership. 

That said, the intent was to present a definitive list of X-Men past and present, and that's what we did 

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 08:58 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yeah, I think that's fair - if the questionable splinter teams were hived off into a separate list, that would draw the distinction that I think a lot of readers would be looking for.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 09:08 am    
By comixfan

I'll see if I can get something added to the FAQ page we have online... 

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/ohotmufaq.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 10:59 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Eric, thanks for setting up an Errata section for the Handbooks. I'll bet Mark Gruenwald and George Olshevsky would have given their eyeteeth for the opportunity that the Internet provides to quickly correct mistakes, and get that information out to the public. 

Question: Are the corrections "official" (approved by editorial)? 


watching: turnaround

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Posted: 28 May 2005 09:43 pm    
By comixfan

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Eric, thanks for setting up an Errata section for the Handbooks. 
<<<

Thanks should go to my co-writer Stuart, as he's the one that set up the page. The rest of us writers just contribute to it. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Question: Are the corrections "official" (approved by editorial)? 
<<<

As far as I'm aware (since I'm only a contributor to the FAQ), yes.

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Thread 46

Posted: 23 Apr 2005 10:17 pm    Post subject: Wolverine placement...
By Kevin W.
Director

I know that the current Wolverine storyline is supposed to happen after everything else going on currently in the X titles, but what about New Avengers? Does "Enemy of the State" and "Agent of...Shield" happen before or after Logan joins the New Avengers? 

Cause Hydra pops up in this week's Amazing Spiderman 519, with no sign of Baron Von Strucker in sight, and no mention of the events in Wolverine.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 06:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, HYDRA's been wandering around in mutually exclusive versions for years. I think the standard explanation is that the whole organisation is horribly fractured, and there are several groups wandering around, all of whom consider themselves to be the one true HYDRA. 

Or, if you take the line suggested by ASM 519, there's a power-behind-the-throne somewhere which allows some of these bozos to get on with things in the belief that they're in charge, but are ready to snatch back power when they consider it convenient.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 08:49 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'd place "Enemy of the State" before NEW AVENGERS. I'd think there'd be a reference to Logan being an Avenger in W3 20+ if "Enemy" occurred after the premiere storyline in A4. There's still that whole matter of Nick Fury's chronology, too. Nick is obviously in charge of SHIELD in "Enemy," but in NEW AVENGERS, he's been replaced. If SECRET WAR results in Fury's ouster, then we might have to place SECRET WAR between "Enemy" and A4 1. Fury's chronology is going to be a key to determining sequence.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Apr 2005 04:15 pm    
By BobMM

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'd place "Enemy of the State" before NEW AVENGERS.  
<<<

NEW THUNDERBOLTS supports that, as its first arc runs concurrently with Enemy of the State and the New Avengers have not yet formed.

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Posted: 02 May 2005 07:50 pm    
By the Krayon

Actually, Enemy of the State/Agent of SHIELD AND SEcret War both occur before New Avengers. Mark Millar mentioned a few days ago on Newsarama that the events of Enemy of the State/Agent of SHIELD will tie into New Avengers, something to do with olverine's PR. Basically, now that Woilverine has killed all these people for Hydra, the world hates/fears him even more, so joining the Avengers might boost his acceptance with society. Also, Wolverine makes mention of Secret War in New Avewngers 5, so a placement of Wv.3 #20+-Secret War-New Avengers makes sense. 

-the_Krayon

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Posted: 27 May 2005 12:04 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, so much for Enemy of the State occuring before New Avengers #1. 

Wolverine #28 has the following line in it, (Wolverine is 'thinking' about the Sentinels that he unleashes on the Dawn of the White Light): "I heard these things crash landed in Russia after some big fight with the Avengers. Not the New Avengers. Avengers Classic. SHIELD stepped in when the Russian Mob tried to sell them to the Iraqis a month before the war." 

For Wolverine to think that line, there has to be a "New Avengers" in existence. 

This whole Secret War/New Avengers/Wolverine placement thing is getting really tricky, real fast...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 May 2005 04:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I was wondering when that line was going to come up.... 

It's an error. Mark Millar has said, quite unambiguously, that this story takes place before NEW AVENGERS - apparently, part of Wolverine's motivation for joining the Avengers in the first place is to atone for what he does for HYDRA in this storyline. 

In any event, it can't possibly be right, because "Enemy of the State" is directly tied to the opening storyline in NEW THUNDERBOLTS, which definitely takes place before the Avengers are re-formed. 

Besides, narrative captions are non-diegetic (ie, they're not actually happening - it's just a convention). You describe Wolverine as "thinking" that line, but that's not the case. He's addressing a notional reader. The distinction is being drawn for the benefit of readers, who DO know about the New Avengers. Normally, of course, first person narration is a good guide to the character's intended state of mind, but nonetheless, it's not really happening.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 May 2005 12:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
apparently, part of Wolverine's motivation for joining the Avengers in the first place is to atone for what he does for HYDRA in this storyline. 
<<<

Sez who? Dialog from an upcoming issue of A4? 


Quote: 
>>>
Besides, narrative captions are non-diegetic (ie, they're not actually happening - it's just a convention). You describe Wolverine as "thinking" that line, but that's not the case. He's addressing a notional reader. The distinction is being drawn for the benefit of readers, who DO know about the New Avengers. Normally, of course, first person narration is a good guide to the character's intended state of mind, but nonetheless, it's not really happening. 
<<<

I was set to believe that Logan was narrating this story (to someone) at a later date -- a date that follows the formation of the New Avengers. However, his earlier narration in W3 28 describes events as they are unfolding in the present tense. Still, we could ignore the narration or pretend it's being done by an editor for the reader. 

But temporal references (admittedly not Bendis' strongsuit) would also seem to support placement of Enemy of the State after A4 6 in light of this week's New X-Men: Academy X #14. In NX 14, it's the end of the school year (presumably around late May -- where I've placed last year's prize-giving ceremony -- or perhaps June, just before the "summer" vacation noted in that issue and in the tie-in New X-Men: Hellions #1), and the Institute has never found a substitute for Northstar to lead his team of students. Instead, Karma is saddled with Jean-Paul's group, as well as Rahne Sinclair's. You'd think that the only reason the school wouldn't bother to find replacements was that the school year was about to end anyway. Following this line of thought would make Northstar's death in Enemy of the State occur in May at the earliest. Let's switch to New Avengers. FF 517, which occurs on Halloween, must occur after Disassembled. So the latest Disassembled can occur is in October. A4 1 is supposed to occur "six months" after Disassembled, and that puts A4 1 in late April at the latest. (My analysis of X-chronology and clues such as the Beast's Morrison look in Disassembled currently place Disassembled in late September and A4 1 in late March.) 

However, given the tie-in to New Thunderbolts, the Enemy of the State storyline works better before A4 1...unless... 

Public knowledge of the New Avengers postdates A4 6 by some time. During a time in which the new team is assembled but non-public, the New Thunderbolts could form. Logan could go from the first story arc in New Avengers to Enemy of the State and the tie-in to TB2. Enemy of the State and the follow-up Agent of SHIELD storylines occur over a "three-month" period. If A4 1-6 occur in March, then Northstar's death could be in early June, just before the end of the school year in NX. And on a minor note, a post-A4 6 placement for Enemy of the State would help line up Wolvie's diamonds-up-the-side costume appearances, which include the New Avengers Guest Starring the Fantastic Four comic (post-A4 6, probably post-A4 10). Of course, Wolverine's attire is just inconsistent across his many appearances anyway. 

But then again, there's that darned Nick Fury chronology. He's not in charge during A4 1-6 for some reason (we all suspect Secret War, but who knows at this point?). But then there he is in charge in Enemy of the State. But then he is severely injured in the crash of the SHIELD helicarrier in that storyline. Hmm...could that be why there's an acting director in A4? 

Head...spinning... Bendis strikes again with another continuity conundrum (ala Disassembled), and I have a feeling Secret War is going to make things even messier. (And let's not forget the longest pregnancy on record...) 

Urgh.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 May 2005 01:43 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
apparently, part of Wolverine's motivation for joining the Avengers in the first place is to atone for what he does for HYDRA in this storyline. 

Sez who? Dialog from an upcoming issue of A4? 
<<<

That's according to Millar, in a typically self-aggrandizing ramble over on his message board. Apparently this becomes very explicit in later issues of "Agent of SHIELD", to the point where they considered sticking a "New Avengers" tie-in logo on the front cover (but decided against it). 

Nonetheless, it's Millar's story, and he's been as clear as he could conceivably be that the whole thing takes place before Wolverine joins the Avengers. 


Quote: 
>>>
But temporal references (admittedly not Bendis' strongsuit) would also seem to support placement of Enemy of the State after A4 6 in light of this week's New X-Men: Academy X #14. 
<<<

Well, that's if you're working on an absolute calendar, of course. Mind you, it's certainly true that "Agent of SHIELD" has to take place between NEW X-MEN #13-14 (since Wolverine is back at the school in issue #14), and that everyone in NX #14 is still reacting as if events in issue #13 are at least reasonably recent. And in NX #14, the Avengers are definitely back together, because the X-Men get called up to (presumably) appear in HOUSE OF M right at the end of the issue. 


Quote: 
>>>
However, given the tie-in to New Thunderbolts, the Enemy of the State storyline works better before A4 1...unless... 

Public knowledge of the New Avengers postdates A4 6 by some time. During a time in which the new team is assembled but non-public, the New Thunderbolts could form. Logan could go from the first story arc in New Avengers to Enemy of the State and the tie-in to TB2. 
<<<

Hmm. That would seem to work in terms of NEW AVENGERS and WOLVERINE, considering that we haven't actually seen Wolverine join the Avengers yet - they've simply stumbled across him in the course of a mission. So perhaps he doesn't actually join in the present storyline. 

That would require NEW THUNDERBOLTS #1-6 and NEW INVADERS #6-9 to take place after the Avengers are re-formed. That doesn't seem to be an insuperable problem for NEW INVADERS. Come to think of it, it would also explain how the Purple Man got out of prison in order to appear in NEW THUNDERBOLTS (although that's purely coincidental, because Nicieza has said he had his own plans to explain the Purple Man's escape). 

On the other hand, in order for this to work, the Avengers have to emphatically not announce their existence to the public until after "Enemy of the State" (since in NEW THUNDERBOLTS, everyone regards them as defunct). Still not inconceivable, though, and it would be consistent with my attempt to explain the inconsistent references about the Avengers' existence in the opening issues of MTU3. 

The biggest problem it poses is with GLA, since GLA #2 has the Swordsman already associated with the Thunderbolts, which means it must follow an issue of Thunderbolts that hasn't come out yet. And if that's the case, then GLA #2 would have to take place after the Avengers were back together. Mind you, it's not like the GLA timeline makes sense as it is. It already requires a ridiculously long gap. 

This actually makes reasonably good sense. I think you're persuading me. 


Quote: 
>>>
But then again, there's that darned Nick Fury chronology. He's not in charge during A4 1-6 for some reason (we all suspect Secret War, but who knows at this point?). But then there he is in charge in Enemy of the State. But then he is severely injured in the crash of the SHIELD helicarrier in that storyline. Hmm...could that be why there's an acting director in A4? 
<<<

Hmm... it's not really consistent with Maria Hill's dialogue in A4 4. When Cap tells her that he's putting together a new team of superheroes, her reply is "This is exactly the kind of crap that put Nick Fury where he is, and I'm telling you this is not happening." Whatever she's talking about, it certainly doesn't sound like Fury's simply recuperating from injuries sustained in action.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 May 2005 02:27 pm    
By Jason Doty

This whole Wolverine thing is going to be tricky. 

The Uncanny Team follows Wolverine to the Savage Land. 
They end up in a battle between species. (Never finding Wolverine) 
In the preview of the next Uncanny issue, Bishop gets a report of what has been going on since they left, which includes Wolverine going rogue in the pages of his own comic. 

Then after this point Wolverine heads to the Savage Land again to be found by the New Avengers. 

This would tell me that Enemy of the State and Agent of SHIELD take place before New Avengers. 

It is not explained how Wolverine got back from the Savage Land (The jet he took was destroyed by the dinasaur people), but he definatley went there for two different reasons. 

Another Explanation could be that he went to the Savage Land for two reasons, instead of just the one we believed in Uncanny. He was then found by the New Avengers. After their storyline he returns to the X-Men. Enemy of the State happens, then Agent of SHIELD, then he joins the New Avengers. Which to me would be the more logical of the two explanations. 

I guess we'll have to see how this all pans out. I believe all the storylines end just prior to House of M.

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Posted: 27 May 2005 02:55 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The biggest problem it poses is with GLA, since GLA #2 has the Swordsman already associated with the Thunderbolts, which means it must follow an issue of Thunderbolts that hasn't come out yet. And if that's the case, then GLA #2 would have to take place after the Avengers were back together. Mind you, it's not like the GLA timeline makes sense as it is. It already requires a ridiculously long gap. 
<<<

I don't have GLA #2 in front of me at the moment, but I don't think it actually specifies that Swordsman is actually associated with the Thunderbolts. He's found at their headquarters by himself and is mistaken for Hawkeye, but we don't see any of the Thunderbolts team, which might actually imply that Swordsman is there without the team's knowledge. 

The only thing GLA #2 solidifies chronologically with regard to the Thunderbolts is that it must occur after the Thunderbolts have their headquarters built. In point of fact, we don't know for certain if they've even moved in as of GLA #2!

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Posted: 27 May 2005 04:15 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yes, but the GLA say that they went to the Thunderbolts HQ looking for the Swordsman - so he's done something public that would lead them to think they were likely to find him there. They don't just randomly stumble upon him.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 May 2005 04:36 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Wait, we're saying that things flowed like this: 


A4 #1-6 - the New Avengers form, but don't reveal that fact to the world. They run into Wolverine but don't induct him as a member. 

W3 #20 - Wolverine is kidnapped, killed, resurrected and brainwashed. 

NTB #1-6 - believing the Avengers disbanded, the New Thunderbolts form, the Swordsman debuts, and Wolverine attacks Strucker. 

W3 #20-31 - "Enemy of the State"/"Agent of SHIELD". Wolverine knows the New Avengers exist but nobody else does. 

GLA #2 - the GLA, believing the Avengers disbanded, offers membership to the Swordsman and a non-brainwashed Wolverine. 

A4 #7-10 - the New Avengers reveal their existence. Wolverine, upset over the events of W3 #20-31, joins. 


Am I reading the thread right? That would mean Fury gets command of SHIELD back pretty darn quick ... but that makes his appearance in FF:FOES and MTU3 easier to swallow. And maybe we can wedge the story-arc in PUN7 where Fury's trying to get back in command between A4 #6 and W3 #20 above... 

'Course, that all hinges on (a) Bendis never referencing Fury's altered status again (unlikely), or (b) us finding a compelling in-story reason that he gets booted *again*. Hey, maybe he was just put back in command temporarily to deal with the Wolverine situation. 

-Jeph! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 May 2005 05:13 pm
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Ah, good point - Fury is unequivocally running SHIELD in "Enemy of the State", isn't he? Which points rather strongly to EotS taking place before he's deposed. Darn.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 May 2005 05:57 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Yes, but the GLA say that they went to the Thunderbolts HQ looking for the Swordsman - so he's done something public that would lead them to think they were likely to find him there. They don't just randomly stumble upon him. 
<<<

Now wait: I thought they went to the Thunderbolts headquarters looking for ANY superheroes to join. Since we don't see a panel of Flatman asking any of the Thunderbolts to join, they probably weren't there. Flatman simply stumbles across Swordsman, (who's maybe scouting around the place) and he mistakes him for Hawkeye, after all. If this was after Swordsman officially joins the team, I think Abe Jenkins would've sent a disclaimer to the Press, ("This is NOT Hawkeye back from the dead ladies and gentlemen!") We could read this scene several ways, it seems to me... 


Quote: 
>>>
And maybe we can wedge the story-arc in PUN7 where Fury's trying to get back in command between A4 #6 and W3 #20 above... 
<<<

The Punisher arc shouldn't interfere too much with Wolverine/New Avengers chronology. It simply requires it be fit in the appropriate spot in Nick Fury's chronology. Looks like that's next on my review list...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 May 2005 06:05 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

No, they're looking for him. Flatman's opening line in the scene: "There you are! I thought I'd find you around here!" In fact, Thunderbolts HQ is the first place they look, precisely because they're after the Swordsman.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 May 2005 06:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
If this was after Swordsman officially joins the team, I think Abe Jenkins would've sent a disclaimer to the Press, ("This is NOT Hawkeye back from the dead ladies and gentlemen!") 

Why would anyone suspect him to Hawkeye? Hawkeye uses arrows. This guy uses a sword. The only reason Flatman suspected him to be Hawkeye was for the sake of an in-joke. I don't think a press release will be necessary, unless Abe would like to also let people know that the new Swordsman isn't the Vision, Ant-Man II, or Jack of Hearts. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 May 2005 06:43 pm    
By Somebody

Actually, there's no evidence Wolverine went anywhere near the SL in Uncanny. He gets "lost" in the Canadian Rockies and X-23 confirms that "the monsters" (i.e. the dino-people) lost him too, and while it's a paleontologist he's going to the aid of, there's nothing to actually suggest that whatever he's aiming for is in the SL (indeed, you could take the fact that he never leaves Canada as evidence to the contrary). The UXM456 cover is the only thing that says otherwise, and it's not as if Marvel covers have never misled. 

I think Claremont intended for Wolverine to get taken to the Savage Land, but made a (slightly crude) subplot cut (and dialogue patch with X-23's line) so that he wasn't, with the intention of leaving him free to get captured by Hydra for EotS. Now, given that Rachel plays a big part in EotS, the UXM460 preview appears to be ill-fitting (wasn't the prez announcement in W25?), but the intent is clear.

Last edited by Somebody on 27 May 2005 09:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 27 May 2005 08:49 pm    
By Jason Doty

I could have sworn the X-Men adventure took place in the Savage Land and when they found X-23 that is where she was and she believed that Wolverine was killed by the dinosaur people. I thought he went to Canada to pick up the archeologist lady. I'll have to look at it again. Thanks, Doty

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Posted: 27 May 2005 09:23 pm    
By Somebody

They go to the SL halfway through #466, after Wolverine's been lost by X-23 and (according to her) the dinos. The snowy sections in #465 and #466 are in Canada. 

And why did you thank yourself?

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Posted: 28 May 2005 07:15 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
Why would anyone suspect him to Hawkeye? 


By the time of GLA #2, when he's evidently associated in some way with the Thunderbolts? 

Because he's a new superhero who turns up at the same time that Hawkeye disappears; because everyone knows dead superheroes always come back; because he's hanging around with the Thunderbolts, who have a past association with Hawkeye; because the Thunderbolts have a track record of members with previous costumed identities; and because the original Swordsman was one of Hawkeye's childhood mentors. 

It doesn't actually take that much of a leap of logic - there's certainly enough there to justify it being a genuine rumour circulating in the Marvel Universe.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 May 2005 01:32 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
No, they're looking for him. Flatman's opening line in the scene: "There you are! I thought I'd find you around here!" In fact, Thunderbolts HQ is the first place they look, precisely because they're after the Swordsman. 
<<<

Not quite how I read it, (though admitedly, I could be wrong). Here's how I read it: They're after Hawkeye, not the Swordsman. He doesn't state before going there that he's looking for Swordsman. Instead, knowing that Hawkeye has in the past been a member of the T-Bolts, and hoping that maybe he's come back from the dead, (which these heroes tend to do), Flatman heads to the Thunderbolts headquarters. Stumbling across Swordsman, he thinks, "Hey, this Swordsman guy: It's Hawkeye!" 

I'm just not buying that if Swordsman is a known member of the team, that it's not been clarified to the Press, (which is following this team's every move), just who this guy is. Besides, Abe Jenkins is having to clear every member that joins the team with Warbird... 

Of course, all of this will probably be clarified in the next few issues of New Thunderbolts...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 May 2005 01:51 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

But why would the GLA be working on the assumption that the dead Avengers aren't really dead? That's not how they react in issue #1.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 May 2005 02:03 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

SPIDER-MAN: BREAKOUT #1 actually lends considerable support to the "period of confusion about the Avengers" theory. Admittedly, it seems to take place very shortly after the opening NEW AVENGERS arc, since Spider-Man is dutifully explaining the plot of that arc to Mary Jane. But, nonetheless, it does have this very useful conversation, as MJ tries to persuade Peter to stay at home until his wrist injury heals:- 

MJ: What about your new Avengers buddies? Can't they take up the slack? What's the point of being on a team if you keep trying to do it all yourself? 

Peter: It's not as simple as that, Mary Jane. This whole Avengers situation is still kinda... fluid. 

MJ: Fluid. 

Peter: Yeah. As in, technically speaking, we're not officially a team. 

MJ: But... I thought Captain America personally invited you to join. Does it get any more official than that? 

Peter: It's hard to explain. There's, ah... other factors. And anyway, I'm not so sure it's the right thing for me.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 May 2005 02:45 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
But why would the GLA be working on the assumption that the dead Avengers aren't really dead? 
<<<

I don't know...In the end, we're trying to make sense of an inside joke, (which isn't very well defined, since the new Swordsman hasn't actually joined the team in New Thunderbolts yet). We don't know why Flatman thinks, (or hopes) some of the dead Avengers aren't really dead, but we do see that he does indeed believe that to be true. Again, maybe he's figured out that some superheroes have a tendancy to come back from the dead.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 May 2005 09:22 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Here's the thing... 

Flatman goes to the Thunderbolts HQ looking for someone. He finds the someone in question and says, "There you are!" He then promptly calls the indivual Hawkeye. 

If Flatman were looking for Swordsman, he wouldn't have said "There you are!" and then call him by anything but Swordsman. He was looking for Hawkeye. He was looking in vain, naturally, but he found someone who resembled Hawkeye a little and jumped to that conclusion. 

Flatman looking for Hawkeye also explains WHY he was at the Thunderbolts HQ. There'd been no mention of Swordsman joining the team (at least none that we've seen so far) and Hawkeye is the only member of the Thunderbolts, past or present, that Flatman's worked with. And, c'mon, Flatman works with Mr. Immortal, who's sole power is to be able to come back from the dead! It's not like Flatman's never been exposed to the concept!  

All I'm saying is that the way it looks to me like Slott wrote the scene, it doesn't show any chronological clues other than the Thunderbolts HQ being completed.

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Posted: 29 May 2005 09:37 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

As I read it, the joke is that Flatman already thinks the Swordsman is Hawkeye because he's heard a rumour on the Internet. When Swordsman insists that he isn't, Flatman replies "But I read on the Internet that..." The reference is surely to the real-life Internet rumours to the same effect. 

He IS looking for Hawkeye, but only in the sense that that's who he thinks the Swordsman is.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 May 2005 03:20 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

See, but we're back to the point about what is actually shown in the comic. We don't know WHAT Flatman read on the Internet. It could be that Hawkeye was alive and well and working under the guise of Swordsman. It could be that Hawkeye was alive, but running the Thunderbolts from behind the scenes. It could simply be that Hawkeye was alive. Any one of those suppositions could easily prompt Flatman to go looking for Hawkeye at the Thunderbolts HQ. 

Again, with what we're actually shown in GLA #2, all we know is that Flatman goes to the Thunderbolts HQ in search of Hawkeye. We are given nothing whatsoever about Swordsman's status with the Thunderbolts, and the only chronological knowledge we have about the Thunderbolts on the whole is that their HQ has been built (not necessarily even finished, or occupied).

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Posted: 29 May 2005 04:44 pm    
By Somebody

Probablty a conspiracy-theory website.

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Thread 47

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:57 pm    Post subject: Incredible Hulk #81 [SPOILERS]
By Somebody

Interesting chronological implication in this one - PAD's dropped in an ambiguous retcon that could wipe out any number of previous Hulk stories. 

Basically, Nightmare (the villain of the arc) says he's been toying with the Hulk's memories for ages, and some of what he thinks happened didn't [with leading pictures of the Devil Hulk (ala Garney, rather than the Romita Jr version), Absorbing Man (second time PAD's tried to retcon that story if you take this as read), and Abomination in the background as prompts.] 

Now, PAD's said elsewhere that he has no plans to lay out a "this is in, this is out" timetable, so this isn't a call to wipe any stories from the record, but it's going to hang over Hulk chronology from now on somewhat.

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Posted: 28 May 2005 08:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Oh man, I hope this isn't true. That would be such a cop-out. Besides, it's quite unnecessary -- House of M is going to wipe out all that backstory anyway. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 May 2005 09:14 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Weren't we shown events in both the Absorbing Man and Abomination plotlines that the Hulk wasn't privy to? Events that he wouldn't have memories of, to begin with? 

watching: yogi bear

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Posted: 29 May 2005 01:57 am    
By shandrakor

Personally, I think it's easiest to treat all pre-re-David issues of Hulk as having actually occurred until and unless any character that appeared in those issues indicates that they didn't happen to them. 

The best place to look is going to be future apperances of Doc Sampson and Betty. These can be used to tell us whether the conspiracy stories actually happened. If not, Hulk gets to keep those issues in his own chronology (since they happened from his perspective,) but the supporting cast gets them pulled out. 

I find it especially unlikely that David, or any future writer, would bother indicating removal of any issues further back than the conspiracy stories...but that's just a personal guess.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 01:59 am    
By shandrakor

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Events that he wouldn't have memories of, to begin with? 
<<<

True, but dream logic could still apply. Banner's mind was creating subplots with characters other than himself that existed to make his personal experiences feel like they made more sense.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 06:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It wouldn't eliminate any of the previous stories, it would simply give Nightmare a BTS appearance in them. Anything which conflicts irreconcilably with later stories is evidently Nightmare manipulating events. 

It's a pretty dreadful issue, though. I roll my eyes in despair every time an American writer proclaims that 9/11 was the most emotionally moving event in human history. (Seriously, the plot hinges on the remarkable proposition that 9/11 was so exceptional that it allowed Nightmare to generate a beachhead in the real world for the First Time Ever.) I don't know whether David's more in need of a history book or a newspaper with a decent foreign section.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 08:55 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

In the MU, 9/11 isn't all that exceptional. How many times have we seen death and destruction on an even grander scale? Ultron's annihilation of an entire nation (pre-9/11) comes quickly to mind.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 11:24 am    
By shandrakor

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It wouldn't eliminate any of the previous stories, it would simply give Nightmare a BTS appearance in them. 
<<<

It wouldn't eliminate the stories for Hulk. 

It would, however, eliminate them for any supporting cast. If the stories actually happened on Nightmare Island, instead of in the Real World, then only Hulk was present for the stories, and Doc Sampson, etc were played by either Nightmare or the Mindless Ones.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 11:24 am    
By garbonzo

Quote: 
>>>
Personally, I think it's easiest to treat all pre-re-David issues of Hulk as having actually occurred until and unless any character that appeared in those issues indicates that they didn't happen to them. 
<<<


This is probably going to end up like the false memories implanted in Wolverine. We have to assume they are real until proven otherwise. There is always the possibility the Nightmare was just screwing with the Hulk and wants him to believe that he had some control over the events when in fact he did not. 

Besides, there was some crossover during hte conspiracy storyline. Hulk showed up in The Avengers during the "Savage She-Hulk" storyline. That is going to be a pain in the rear to explain away. 

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 11:41 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Events that he wouldn't have memories of, to begin with? 
<<<

True, but dream logic could still apply. Banner's mind was creating subplots with characters other than himself that existed to make his personal experiences feel like they made more sense. 
<<<

Yes, but my point was, he would know about the subplots then, when I don't think he knew about them at the time the story "happened." 


watching: superfriends

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 12:16 pm    
By shandrakor

I'm just going to argue dream logic again. He may have "known" about the subplots without knowing about the subplots. It seems easiest for me to just place Banner in the position of the reader, who is dreaming about himself in a bad X-Files ripoff. 

Bear in mind, I'm not arguing in favor of removing any stories, merely that if any stories are being removed, this is how I would imagine the justification running.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 12:41 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
It would, however, eliminate them for any supporting cast. If the stories actually happened on Nightmare Island, instead of in the Real World, then only Hulk was present for the stories, and Doc Sampson, etc were played by either Nightmare or the Mindless Ones. 
<<<

I don't think it can be rationalized that Hulk/Banner was on this island for the whole Bruce Jones run on the book. At the start of this storyline, we see the Hulk coming to the island. 

I'm not in favor of eliminating anything from continuity, until it is SPECIFICALLY referred to as not occuring. All's we're left with here is Nightmare saying he's been manipulating Hulk for some time. Read of that what you will, but for now, it's too ambigious... 

Seriously, PAD's "cure" for some of the bungled stories of the last few years is just as bad as the "disease", (the bungled stories).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 06:06 pm    
By Somebody

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Weren't we shown events in both the Absorbing Man and Abomination plotlines that the Hulk wasn't privy to? Events that he wouldn't have memories of, to begin with? 
<<<

The most similar retcon I can think of is Alan Davis' retcon of Excalibur: The Possession in the mid-40s of the main Exc title. When Roma and Captain Britain are going through his memories to make sense of it, one of the scenes doesn't involve him at all and he reacts with a "but how could I remember that?" (or somesuch, I don't have it to hand), despite him not reacting as if he knows about the scene in question in The Psn. Taking what Nightmare says as gospel, if someone was to go through Banner's head to resolve this, you could expect something similar to happen. 

And I think the crossovers (i.e. the Hulk's appearances in Defenders v2/The Order, Avengers, Cap/Falcon, etc) are completely unaffected, and some of the non-crossover stuff in the Hulk's title is too. The ambiguity is over how much. 


shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
Personally, I think it's easiest to treat all pre-re-David issues of Hulk as having actually occurred until and unless any character that appeared in those issues indicates that they didn't happen to them. 

The best place to look is going to be future apperances of Doc Sampson and Betty. These can be used to tell us whether the conspiracy stories actually happened. If not, Hulk gets to keep those issues in his own chronology (since they happened from his perspective,) but the supporting cast gets them pulled out. 

I find it especially unlikely that David, or any future writer, would bother indicating removal of any issues further back than the conspiracy stories...but that's just a personal guess. 
<<<

Well, Doc Samson (no p) appeared in She-Hulk behaving like his old self - i.e. almost but not quite entirely unlike Jones' Sampson (with a p. Seriously). 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It's a pretty dreadful issue, though. I roll my eyes in despair every time an American writer proclaims that 9/11 was the most emotionally moving event in human history. (Seriously, the plot hinges on the remarkable proposition that 9/11 was so exceptional that it allowed Nightmare to generate a beachhead in the real world for the First Time Ever.) I don't know whether David's more in need of a history book or a newspaper with a decent foreign section. 
<<<

That particular bit hurt the issue a lot for me - far more than any of the may-be-retcons.

			*	*	*

Thread 48

Posted: 29 May 2005 03:41 pm    Post subject: Dracula Chronology Notes
By Enda80

DRACULA/VLAD TEPES 
................... 
DL 3/3 
FF3 36-FB 
**JOURNEY INTO UNKNOWN WORLDS 29 (original source for reprinted story in Dracula Lives#4/5) 
DL 4/3 
DL 1/2 
M/TU2 7-FB 
TOD MAG 4/2-FB 
DL 5/2 
DL 6/3 
DL 10 
DL 11 
DL 9/2 
DL 7/3 
TOD MAG 6 
DL 13 
DL 3/4 
DL 1/6 
DL 5 
DL 6/4 
**TOD 7-FB 
**TOD 1-FB 
FMON 8 
FMON 9 
**TOD 20-FB (death of Abraham Van Helsing) 
....................... 


http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/draculav.htm 
Quick note; I was thinking about the recent Stoker's Dracula series, and it occured to me that Van Helsing's Earth-616 appearances have an odd jumble. Gerry Conway did not, it seems, read Stoker's novel and was only relying on vague memories of Bela Lugosi or the Hammer Dracula films when he worked on the early issues of Tomb. Thus, Tomb of Dracula#1 has a fb of Dracula getting slain by Abraham Van Helsing with a stake, but as seen in the novel and in Stoker's Dracula, this was not how he was dispatched. 

Going with the idea that Van Helsing came back later to destroy Dracula on a separate occaison, I have made the following suggestion. Also, I should note that Tomb of Dracual I#7 features a fb to Van Helsing advancing on Dracula, and of Dracula attacking Lucy Westernra. This was Lucy Westernra's first appearance in a Marvel issue, a fact mentioned in her entry for the original Handbook's Vampires entry, but ignored for the Deluxe Edition. 

By the way, Suspense#7 has been noted as Dracula's first appearance in the FF Encyclopedia.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2005 03:59 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Quick note; I was thinking about the recent Stoker's Dracula series, and it occured to me that Van Helsing's Earth-616 appearances have an odd jumble. Gerry Conway did not, it seems, read Stoker's novel and was only relying on vague memories of Bela Lugosi or the Hammer Dracula films when he worked on the early issues of Tomb.  
<<<

How confident are we that "Stoker's Dracula" is canon, as opposed to simply an adaptation of the book? 


watching: lace ii

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Posted: 29 May 2005 05:23 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm pretty confident it's NOT canon. As the title suggests, it's a novel adaptation. Marvel's Dracula is inspired by Stoker's, but he isn't the same character. (By which I mean, the novel is not canon. Ditto Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein".) It'd be like treating Norse myths as canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 May 2005 05:33 pm    
By Enda80

Stoker's Dracula continues the adaptation of Stoker's novel that began in Dracula Lives in the 1970's. The early issues reprint those Dracula Lives stories, the rest finish the story. 

In addition, Lucy Westernra's Deluxe Edition entry under vampires treated that earlier adaptation as canon, since it references her Dracula Lives appearance. 

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/l/lucywesternra.htm

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Posted: 30 May 2005 08:33 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Okay, that's a good point. If the Handbook regarded those stories as canon on their first publication, then that's a pretty strong indication that the completion of the story should be treated as canonical, I'd agree.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 49

Posted: 30 May 2005 04:20 pm    Post subject: Something going on with Adding page & panel ranges?
By jimmyppi

Some time ago it was a discussion going on how to add page and panel ranges where comics have been splitted. 

No decision was made and I haven't seen any more posts for the other letter pages (A-Y). Is someone working with this? I want to help 

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2005 06:33 pm    
By Jason Doty

I started with the letter "z" because it was a short character list, but no one came up with the definate way they wanted it presented. Also, I can only help on the X-Men comics because that is what I have. So, without an incredable amount of support from the community, this project could take some time. 

I think it would be better to start this indeavor after the gaps are closed and we could assign different sections to people. 

It's a great idea, but it is more complicated than first proposed.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2005 07:00 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Ssshhhh. 

Wheels are turning. 

Patience. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 30 May 2005 02:05 pm    Post subject: Nick Fury notes; Korean War
By Enda80

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
DRSTR2 50 
DRSTR2 51 
{SGTF 1} 

Since Sgt. Fury#1 was published in the 1960's, it should have the {} around it, not FF I#21. Yes, Sgt. Fury#1 was set during World War II, but let us take a look at Spitfire's entry or the U-Man's entry. Brackets are put around the Invaders issues that they appeared in even though those were set in the 1940's. 


SGTF@ 1 
SGTF 70 
SGTF 74 
................... 
Sgt. Fury Annual#1 takes place during the Korean War. Sgtf 70 and 74 take place during World War II, right?

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2005 06:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The brackets are placed around a character's earliest published appearance. 

What was Nick Fury's earliest published appearance? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2005 07:17 pm    
By Enda80

Sgt. Fury#1 was his earliest published appearance.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2005 07:27 pm    
By jephyork
Director

By jove, you're right. It was published in May 1963, while FF #21 was published in December 1963. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 02 Dec 2004 12:30 pm    Post subject: New Avengers #1-2 Villains
By Jim Smith

Since this issue is set in a supervillain prison, there's a ton of bad guys to keep track of. I thought I'd get the ball rolling. 

That's obviously Electro on pages 2-3, talking to an unidentifiable character. 

Pages 6-7 see Matt Murdock, Jessica Drew, Foggy Nelson, and Luke Cage walk along a series of monitors showing the cells of a dozen or so inmates. Jessica runs through a partial list of prisoners, but I can't make out the faces they're walking past, so there's no way to know if they're the same characters she's referring to. It's only in panels 2-6 that we see the Purple Man is on one of the monitors. Killgrave is at large in New Thunderbolts #1-2, which are set during the Avengers' hiatus between Avengers Finale and New Avengers #1. Presumably the Purple Man will be captured in a future issue of New Thunderbolts, then be sent to prison to make this appearance. 

Pages 20-21 show Electro speaking to a crowd of freed prisoners. The glow of Dillon's powers casts the scene in a dull blue light, making it hard to make out colors. I'll try to identify as many as I can. 

Page 20: To the left of Electro's head are two men--one is obscured by a bolt of electricity, but the other appears to be Cottonmouth. Another figure is standing behind Electro's head and cannot be identified. To the right of Electro's head are a white male with fair-colored hair, a reptillian-looking man, a stony man (Tombstone?), and a man in a metal helmet (Shockwave?). Standing in front of them are a long-haired man, Vapor of the U-Foes, Armadillo, and what looks to be the Red Skull. (If that is the Skull, it would be consistent with his capture in CA4 32, and his reference to a quick escape in CA5 1.) Typhoid Mary is in front of Armadillo, and in front of her is a man with large pointed ears--Vermin was mentioned on Page 7, so I assume that's him. The man standing closest to Electro is wearing a full face mask with a V-like design on the forehead--I'm forced to assume this is Vector of the U-Foes, although I can't help but wonder what happened to his mouth. Behind him appears to be the Mandrill. 

The energy creature in the center of the shot is, of course, Galactus. I mean Zzaxx. I knew that. 

Page 21: A white male with long hair is standing in the back, behind X-Ray of the U-Foes and what looks to be Crossbones. Also in the back is a homely fellow that reminds me of the Molecule Man, but I can't say for sure that it's him. The Controller, Scarecrow, and the Slug are more easily identified. I assume that the scarred man standing in front of the Controller is Jigsaw since Jessica Drew named him on Page 7. Unless there's some other winged man with a mane, this one has to be the Griffin. The man standing in front of him could be the Purple Man, but his hairstyle is a little different than on Page 7 so I'm not sure. Ironclad of the U-Foes is in the lower right corner of the page. 

As an aside, I find it interesting that quite a lot of the villains in this jailbreak seem to serve no purpose in the MU anymore except trying to get out of prison. To my recollection there have been four stories involving mass supervillain jailbreaks in the last seven years--Heroes for Hire #1, Thunderbolts '97, She-Hulk #5-6, and New Avengers #1--and the U-Foes were in all of 'em, with little success in actually staying escaped.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Dec 2004 12:34 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Who does Jessica mention? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Dec 2004 01:35 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jessica lists Bushwacker, Carnage, Crossbones, Jigsaw, Tiger Shark, Vermin, Scarecrow, Mr Hyde, Purple Man, "the whole damn Wrecking Crew" and the U-Foes before being interrupted. 

We only get a clear shot of the inmates in a double-page spread near the end. Frankly, most of them are unidentifiable, because (a) it's David Finch, and all his people look the same; (b) the whole scene is in low blue light, so we can't tell the colours; and (c) they're all wearing prison uniforms. For present purposes, except where a character is obviously recognisable, I'd just assume that they're generic villains who don't get a listing. The fight will continue next issue, which will doubtless clarify matters, and we can go back then and see which villains can be matched up with this spread. 

Some of them, however, have non-standard appearances, and allow us to make a reasonable guess. There's a reptile guy and a stone guy, neither of whom I recognise. The Armadillo is clearly in shot. There's a woman with rather odd hair who might be Typhoid, but I'd hold off on that until we see whether it's confirmed next month. (Bendis has used her before, so I wouldn't be surprised.) 

There's a guy wearing a helmet with a blank mirrored faceplate, which could well be Shockwave, if I'm remembering his appearance correctly. There's a guy with a skull face who's presumably meant to be the Red Skull. Vermin is clearly visible in the bottom left. X-Ray and Vector are both in shot too. Just below Electro's right hand, and partially obscured by crackling electricity, is a very odd-looking fellow who seems to be the Mandrill, but I'd hold off for confirmation there. 

Over on the right hand page, there's a guy wearing a black mask with a stylised cracked skull on it - Skullbuster of the Reavers? Or did Bushwacker dress like that too? To his right is a big armoured guy with scarred skin who's obviously the Controller. Just below him, there's Jigsaw, easily recognisable by his scarred skin. Remarkably, even though everyone else is in prison uniform, the Scarecrow is wearing his mask! Top right is a big fat guy wearing glasses - I think it's the Slug, a little-remembered Captain America villain, but I may be wrong. There's a winged guy with pointed ears anda mane, who's presumably the Griffin. And bottom right is a guy with greyish-looking, odd-textured skin and a square-looking head - presumably Ironclad from the U-Foes. (The guy next to him appears to be the Purple Man, but then we already knew he was there.) 

Otherwise, I vote for "unidentifiable at this stage" for the other characters.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Dec 2004 07:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
There's a guy with a skull face who's presumably meant to be the Red Skull.  
<<<

Yes, that's him. He was captured in CA4 32. In CA5 1, there he is, remarking that he's now out of prison. Obviously, NA 1 occurs between those two issues. 


Quote: 
>>>
partially obscured by crackling electricity, is a very odd-looking fellow who seems to be the Mandrill, but I'd hold off for confirmation there. 
<<<

That's him. 


Quote: 
>>>
Over on the right hand page, there's a guy wearing a black mask with a stylised cracked skull on it - Skullbuster of the Reavers? Or did Bushwacker dress like that too?  
<<<

Nope, that's Crossbones. 


Quote: 
>>>
Top right is a big fat guy wearing glasses - I think it's the Slug, a little-remembered Captain America villain, but I may be wrong.  
<<<

You're correct. It's Slug. 


Quote: 
>>>
And bottom right is a guy with greyish-looking, odd-textured skin and a square-looking head - presumably Ironclad from the U-Foes. 
<<<

Yup, Ironclad.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 02:57 am    
By John Simons

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
Killgrave is at large in New Thunderbolts #1-2, which are set during the Avengers' hiatus between Avengers Finale and New Avengers #1.  
<<<

By the way, according to the recap page six months have passed, but I'm not sure if that means it has been six months since A 503, or since Avengers Finale (which takes place 3 months after 503). Anyone have a thought, or is it too soon to tell? 


Quote: 
>>>
To the right of Electro's head are... a reptillian-looking man... 
<<<

Any chance this could be one of the Blood Brothers? 


Quote: 
>>>
Standing in front of them are a long-haired man 
<<<

I'm no x-pert, but this looks like Scalphunter to me. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also in the back is a homely fellow that reminds me of the Molecule Man, but I can't say for sure that it's him.  
<<<

Doesn't Owen still have the lightning bolt facial scars, or did he fix those?
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 03:15 am    
By Jim Smith

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Doesn't Owen still have the lightning bolt facial scars, or did he fix those? 
<<<

I'm no expert on the character, but I would assume somebody with his powers can conceal the scars at will. I can't remember if I picked up on this from an actual story or not, though. Isn't that what Rachel Summers does with hers? 

At any rate, if that's really Molecule Man I think the heroes are in pretty big trouble, unless Sentry brings his A-game next issue.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 05:07 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
By the way, according to the recap page six months have passed, but I'm not sure if that means it has been six months since A 503, or since Avengers Finale (which takes place 3 months after 503). Anyone have a thought, or is it too soon to tell? 
<<<

The phrase "six months have passed" follows on from the explanation that the Avengers have disbanded, so the only natural reading is that it's referring to AVENGERS FINALE. Of course, I just take these references with a pinch of salt. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm no x-pert, but this looks like Scalphunter to me. 
<<<

It could be, but Scalphunter is tied up in various subplots as Sinister's aide, so it would be a bit clumsy.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 08:01 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
The phrase "six months have passed" follows on from the explanation that the Avengers have disbanded, so the only natural reading is that it's referring to AVENGERS FINALE. Of course, I just take these references with a pinch of salt.  


If the reference ends up having any integrity at all, I'd be inclined to say that it's six months after A 503 (three months after A:FINALE). "It was the worst day in Avengers history...That was six months ago." And the final scene from A 503 is the one shown on the bottom of page 1 of this New Avengers issue; kind of odd that it comes after a panel of a scene from A:FINALE. So I think it's open to interpretation, like everything seems to be these days. 

Generally, it's best to slow the passage of Marvel time as much as possible given the obvious aging problems, etc. Not only that, but if we're dealing with calendar placement (groan)... 
1) A 503 is supposed to occur sometime before the Halloween of FF 517. 
2) In fact, Beast is wearing his Morrison-era costume in A 503, which we've taken as a clue that it occurs before ASTONX3 1, which itself is a beginning-of-school-year story; so we're probably talking August (this loops us back to that X-chronology discussion elsewhere). 
3) In New Avengers (NA?) 1, the water in New York harbor is "ice cold" (just ask Spidey), indicating winter. Six months after August would be February, so that works out nicely. 

Of course until some other continuity glitch messes things up... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Dec 2004 09:29 am    
By jephyork
Director

I didn't know that "we" had taken the Beast's costume in A #503 as an indicator of anything. Last I recall, "we" were perfectly prepared to write it off as Yet Another David Finch Costume Error. 

And as for Bendis' temporal references ... so far we've had, what? 

A year between DD2 #50-56 
A year between the past and present-day events of SECWAR 
Three months between A #503 and Finale 
Six months between A #503 and NA #1 

And Jessica Jones is still pregnant.  

I say we pull a Soldier X on Bendis from now on. 

"Year" = month 
"Month" = week 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 11:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I didn't know that "we" had taken the Beast's costume in A #503 as an indicator of anything. Last I recall, "we" were perfectly prepared to write it off as Yet Another David Finch Costume Error. 
<<<

There doesn't seem to be any immediately pressing reason why he CAN'T be wearing it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 11:21 am    
By jephyork
Director

Well -- as you said above, the events of XCAL3 #5 were mentioned in XFO2 #2 -- and XFO #2 takes place after UX #447, thanks to Cannonball's broken leg. 

And according to solicits, Magneto is supposed to arrive on Genosha with Wanda in XCAL3 #9 -- presumably straight from A #503. 

So, the following sequence could, technically, be correct: 

XCAL3 #5-8 
A #500-503 
XCAL3 #9 
[ReLoad] 
UX #447 
XFO2 #2 

But it would mean that the XCAL3 #5 events referred to in XFO2 #2 happened farther in the past that the dialogue had me believing. 

Plus, it would mean that the Beast has been keeping mum about Magneto being alive for the entirety of ReLoad to date. 

I guess we'll just have to wait to see how EXCAL3 #9 ties into "House of M" ties into the rest of the X-Books. We may (or may not) be given some clues during the current Mystique arc, which is supposed to feature both Prof. X on Genosha and the Astonishing team. 

Like I said -- I'm *prepared* to write off the Beast's outfit as a costume error -- *if need be*. I'm not saying that I AM, currently, writing it off. I just *will* if I find we have to -- and I suspect we may have to. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 12:14 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The strange thing about A 503 (well, one of many strange things!) is that nobody seems to find it remotely surprising that Magneto shows up, despite the fact that he's supposed to be dead. This may, nonetheless, suggest that by the time A 503 comes around, everybody has (for some reason) come to the view that he's alive after all. Perhaps upcoming issues of XCAL will make this clear - they certainly involve Magneto leaving Genosha, so maybe he makes a public appearance in advance of A 503. 

Also, bear in mind that the Beast doesn't change costumes until after UX 444-449 and X 157-160 (on my view, anyway). 

Of course, if Hank's costume starts causing serious problems, then we should just ignore it. But thus far, while it complicates things, it doesn't seem to be outright inconsistent.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 12:51 pm  
By John Simons

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The strange thing about A 503 (well, one of many strange things!) is that nobody seems to find it remotely surprising that Magneto shows up, despite the fact that he's supposed to be dead.  
<<<

Bendis sort of addressed this on his message board a week or two ago: 

Quote: 
>>>
Q: Why is no one reacting to Magneto's presence when, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, he was killed in X-Men 150 (and don't say "as if people didn't think he wouldn't come back", this guy just destroyed New York in Marvel time) 

A: READ HOUSE OF M KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT WANDA,. 
<<<

Actually, "read it again knowing what you know about Wanda" is his stock response to any question about apparent errors or inexplicable plotholes or characterization in the story. Wanda did it, not him! The biggest head-scratcher in the exchange is the following: 

Quote: 
>>>
Q:Why does Doctor Strange say that there is no such thing as Chaos Magic when he's used it in the past? 

A: BECAUSE HE DIDNT. READ IT AGAIN KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT WANDA, 
<<<

Now waitaminute. Is he saying that Doc has never really used chaos magic? And if so, is he saying that any story in which he supposedly did use chaos magic was actually being affected behind-the-scenes by Wanda??? What a can of worms this reality-shifting opens! 

(or is Bendis saying, Doc doesn't know what he's talking about when he says their's no chaos magic, because Wanda is affecting his mind-- or because he is a construct and not actually present at all? Ooooo my brain hurts...) 

By the way, this House of M sounds like a very scary thing for those of us who like to try to make sense out of Marvel history and chronology. According to Quesada in a recent Wizard, "Not only are the Avengers still disassembling, the whole Marvel Universe is disassembling." 

Sounds like House of M could be Marvel's "Zero Hour" Be afraid. Be very afraid...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2004 02:03 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, he's offering an explanation for the Magneto thing in HOUSE OF M, so fair enough (although it still reads badly in A 503).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Dec 2004 02:29 pm    
By ShadZ

I just glanced through New Avengers in the store, so I need some clairification. Is this new prison a: 

1. Prision for people with superpowers (if so, some of the inmates listed above don't make sense, like the Red Skull and Crossbones) 

2. Prison for supervillians -- that is, people who commit crimes while wearing a distinctive costume and using a code name (I don't see why the government would build such a prison) 

3. Mega-maximum security prison for extreme escape risks (in the Marvel Universe, that would be mostly supervillians, and it makes the most sense with the inmate list) 

I'm asking because the Slug doesn't fit any of those catagories! He's just a drug-dealer/organized crime boss . . .
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 03 Dec 2004 03:41 pm    
By Jim Smith

I'm beginning to think that Bendis means that Magneto's appearance (and death) in New X-Men and Doctor Strange's appearance in Avengers #503 were figments of Wanda's imagination, brought to life by her reality-warping powers. Note that in Avengers #503 Magneto reacts to Wanda's situation by deciding that Xavier was correct about...something. I can't think of any reason Xavier would be discussing Wanda with Magneto, except to speculate about the (allegedly fake) Magneto in New X-Men. 

With Doc it's a bit of a stretch for that to not actually be his astral form. (If it's not really Doc, then Wanda introduced her own deus ex machina to explain her own machinations and to bring about her own defeat, making the entire "Chaos" storyline Wanda vs. Wanda while the Avengers stand around and look foolish.) But I suspect that sooner or later, Bendis or another Marvel writer is going to want to undo the "there is no chaos magic" line, and right now it seems like Bendis's retcon device of choice is to blame inconsistencies on Wanda's breakdown. 

Also, while it's irrelevant to the task of sorting out the chronologies of comic book characters: Bendis and his co-writers had 33 issues of Avengers Disassembled to tell a coherent story, and he failed. If he expects me to go read another overhyped crossover event so I can figure out what was going on in the last one, he's dreaming.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2004 10:27 am    
By JessicaDrew

Quote: 
>>>
Over on the right hand page, there's a guy wearing a black mask with a stylised cracked skull on it - Skullbuster of the Reavers? Or did Bushwacker dress like that too?  

>>>
Nope, that's Crossbones. 
<<<

<<<


Nope. The guy is one of the Brothers Grimm, old Spider-Woman (JessicaDrew) foes... 

1-The Brothers Grimm (Spider-Woman # 11) 
2-The Mistery Guy in question from New Avengers # 1 
3-Crossbones from Captain America 
Note the very clear difference on the masks' white design, and check out the Grimms' cracks on theirs...not to be confused with Crossbones' frown lines on his.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2004 03:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good call. Although Crossbones is noted as being incarcerated there.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Dec 2004 05:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

For what it's worth, it COULD also be Skullbuster of the Reavers, aside from the minor problem that he's meant to be dead - they used the same design for his facemask. It would at least explain why there's only one of him, and why he's being allowed to wear his mask (which, in Skullbuster's case, is just part of his body). Then again, for some reason the Scarecrow is standing around in full costume, and the Sentry is wearing the remnants of his costume, so there seems to be some inconsistency about it. (Maybe they let some of the lunatic inmates wear their costumes if it keeps them calmer.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Dec 2004 08:48 am    
By JessicaDrew

Skullbuster's mask indeed has the crack that the Grimms' have, but the white on it stops at his upper jaw.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2004 10:29 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hey, cool, the New Avengers #1 Director's Cut identifies the villains! 

I can't post the image directly, but here's a link to the Comicboards post with the scanned image from the book: 

http://www.comicboards.com/avengers/view.php?trd=041230001339 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2004 10:53 am    
By Ant-Man

Posting the info from Jeph's link here: 

Armadillo/Antonio Rodriguez 
Barbarus 
Blackout II 
A Blood Brother 
A Brother Grimm (Barton or Percy Grimm) 
Bushwacker 
Centurius 
Controller/Basil Sandhurst/Xander Basel 
Electro/Max Dillon 
Grey Gargoyle/Paul Pierre Duval 
Griffin II/Johnny Horton 
Ironclad/Mike Steel 
Jigsaw/Billy Russo 
Mandrill/Hensley Fargus 
Mister Fear III/Larry Cranston 
Molecule Man/Owen Reece 
Purple Man/Zebediah Killgrave 
Scarecrow/Ebenezer Laughton 
Shockwave/Lancaster Sneed 
Slug/Ulysses X. Lugman 
Typhoid Mary 
Vapor/Ann Darnell 
Vector/Simon Utrecht 
Vermin/Edward Whelan 
X-Ray/Jimmy Darnell 
Zzzax
_________________
-Brian Cook-

Last edited by Ant-Man on 30 Dec 2004 02:19 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 12:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Mr. Fear, not the Red Skull, eh? Okay, then the current story arc in CA5 doesn't need to occur after the current story arc in NA. And what number Mr. Fear are we up to now? 

Let's not forget the following villains, who are BTS in NA 1 since they are noted by Jessica as being prisoners -- Carnage, Crossbones, Tiger Shark, Mr. Hyde, Wrecker, Piledriver, Bulldozer. Presumably, Mr. Hyde makes an actual appearance in NA 2.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:10 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Are they kidding?! 

Zzzax is in prison? What did I miss? 


watching: boston college vs. north carolina

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:33 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Isn't Centurius dead and/or in Hell? 

And - mild New Avengers #2 spoiler - when on Earth did Count Nefaria go to jail? And how does the US have the jurisdiction to hold him? 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2004 01:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Zzzax is in prison? What did I miss? 
<<<

Probably nothing. This is Bendis, after all.  I was surprised to see that this is where Barbarus ended up after he and the rest of the Savage Land Mutates were captured in XX:SL 4. 

BTW, the Blackout shown here is not Marcus Daniels; he's dead. This is Blackout II, who debuted in GR 2 2. 

Here's a thought if the inclusion of some of these villains doesn't make sense -- maybe a bunch of villains aren't really here; they're just magical creations of Wanda!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 02:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Zzzax is in prison? What did I miss? 
<<<

Probably nothing. This is Bendis, after all.  
<<<

Yeah, I didn't mean to ask if I missed a story, which is entirely possible, but have I missed where they changed the entire concept of the character? How do you imprison a ball of electrical energy? Zzzax is obviously not too bright, if he's hanging around the prison cause somebody told him he had to. In fact, what appearance has ended with him being anything other than dispersed? 


watching: boston college vs north carolina

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2004 02:12 pm    
By Ant-Man

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
BTW, the Blackout shown here is not Marcus Daniels; he's dead. This is Blackout II, who debuted in GR 2 2. 
<<<

Oops! I fixed it in the list...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 11:01 pm    
By JLH

...But... he was left out in the sun atop a very long pole in GR2 66! Such things are usually very fatal for vampires. 

Course, Bendis did the same thing with Jigsaw, who was shot in the head and fell to his death when last seen, and suddenly appeared perfectly fine in prison during his DD run. I wouldn't be surprised if he has Frederick Foswell popping up next.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2004 11:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup. As I've said, "This is Bendis, after all." 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Dec 2004 01:22 am    
By SeanCurtin

IIRC, we never saw a body when he "died", and it's not like Jigsaw is a stranger to violent trauma to the head. Another appearance, another facial scar... 

-Sean

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Posted: 31 Dec 2004 07:30 am    
By JLH

We did see him fall a few stories to the ground, then lying there. True, though, Frank didn't stick around to check his pulse, and took off before the police could arrive to put anyone in a bodybag. It's just goofy how two previously presumed dead villains for Punisher and Ghost Rider ended up having actually been in prison, and having been successfully held there for several years, under the same writer. 

But surprisingly, it was Bill "Your Man @ Marvel" Rosemann who brought back the very, very dead Orb in the Deadline mini a few years back. There honestly should be an Anti-Scourge going around, bringing random villains back to life on a massive scale, to account for some of these!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Dec 2004 03:54 pm    
By SeanCurtin

IIRC there was a much earlier issue of Gruenwald's Captain America that had the Orb alive and in a Bar with No Name. 

-Sean

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Posted: 07 Jan 2005 11:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Now that issue #2 is out, I thought I'd add that to this thread. Here is a list of the villains from issues #1 and #2. I'm not sure I spotted some of them in issue #2, and if anyone has spotted villains not listed, let us know. 

Armadillo -- 1, 2 
Barbarus -- 1, 2? 
Blackout II -- 1, 2 
Blood Brother -- 1, 2 
Brother Grimm -- 1, 2 
Bulldozer -- 1-BTS, 2? 
Bushwacker -- 1, 2? 
Carnage -- 1-BTS, 2 
Centurius -- 1, 2? 
Controller -- 1, 2 
Count Nefaria -- 1-BTS, 2 
Crossbones -- 1-BTS, 2 
Crusader -- 1-BTS, 2 
Cutthroat -- 1-BTS, 2 
Electro II -- 1, 2 
Foolkiller III -- 1-BTS, 2 
Grey Gargoyle -- 1, 2 
Griffin -- 1, 2 
Hydro-Man -- 1-BTS, 2 
Ironclad -- 1, 2 
Jigsaw -- 1, 2 
Mandrill -- 1, 2 
Mr. Fear IV -- 1, 2 
Mr. Hyde -- 1-BTS, 2 
Molecule Man -- 1, 2 
Piledriver -- 1-BTS, 2? 
Purple Man -- 1, 2 
Scarecrow -- 1, 2 
Shockwave -- 1, 2 
Slug -- 1, 2 
Tiger Shark -- 1-BTS, 2? 
Typhoid -- 1, 2 
Vapor -- 1, 2? 
Vector -- 1, 2 
Vermin -- 1, 2 
Wrecker -- 1-BTS, 2? 
X-Ray -- 1, 2 
Zzzax -- 1, 2?
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 08 Jan 2005 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 08 Jan 2005 02:12 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Barbarus? You mean the four-armed mutate guy from the Savage Land? Unless there's been a story where this character comes to New York, it seems very unlikely. I don't have the issues with me, but a possible alternative could be Forearm of the Mutant Liberation Front.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 08 Jan 2005 02:45 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 

Typhoid Mary-- 1, 2? 
 


Yes, that's definently Typhoid Mary in Issue 2. She's the one saying, "No! We need him as a hostage! You want outta here or not?" 

Which actually doesn't sound like her. She's one of the crazies. I'd picture her more likely to say, "I like blood. Death is fun!" 

Speaking of odd, am I right in that it's Jigsaw who broke Spider-man's arm?!? Since when does Jigsaw have superhuman strength? He gets smacked around like a little girl by the Punisher, for pete's sake...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2005 08:04 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Yes, that's definently Typhoid Mary in Issue 2. She's the one saying, "No! We need him as a hostage! You want outta here or not?" 
Which actually doesn't sound like her. She's one of the crazies. I'd picture her more likely to say, "I like blood. Death is fun!"  
<<<

Okay, that does look like the back of Typhoid's head. Thanks. 


Quote: 
>>>
Speaking of odd, am I right in that it's Jigsaw who broke Spider-man's arm?!? Since when does Jigsaw have superhuman strength? He gets smacked around like a little girl by the Punisher, for pete's sake... 
<<<

Yup, that's Jigsaw. Do you need superhuman strength to break someone's wrist or arm (hard to tell how far down that crack noise appears)?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Jan 2005 08:33 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Spider-Man doesn't have superhuman resistance to injury, so I suppose it's not beyond the bounds of credibility that Jigsaw could get lucky and do him some damage.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 09 Jan 2005 08:49 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Ironic that Cutthroat is here, given that he only had one or two appearances prior to the story arc where his throat got cut. 

-Sean

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Posted: 23 Mar 2005 09:02 am    
By jannepie

I think Centurius is in the 2nd last page in #2. First panel, in front of Vector. 

Although, I'm not sure if there were other established black villains there. It could be him also in # 3, page 7, panel 3, where Cage is hitting him and some blond dude. 

Where is Molecule Man in #2? Others I could find. 

If the rest of the Wrecking Crew are included in the list, why not Thunderball? 

Who are the two villains in #3, page 6, panel 4. In front of Iron Man?

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Posted: 24 Mar 2005 04:05 pm    
By loki

Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 
>>>
Barbarus? You mean the four-armed mutate guy from the Savage Land? Unless there's been a story where this character comes to New York, it seems very unlikely. I don't have the issues with me, but a possible alternative could be Forearm of the Mutant Liberation Front. 
<<<

Nope, it's definitely Barbarus. It isn't someone guessing his identity because they spotted a guy with four arms, he was positively identified in the script for NA#1, and in the Director's Cut bios done for the villains in the two page spread. 

As for the logic of him being in New York, I refer you to the likes of Cutthroat, Jigsaw and Zzzax being present.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2005 04:18 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

To be fair, it IS a specialised superhuman prison. There aren't that many of them. The idea that a captured villain was dragged halfway round the world to be locked up there isn't really a huge stretch.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Mar 2005 10:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Nope, it's definitely Barbarus.  
<<<

I'm assuming at this point that Barbarus appears in NA after the current storyline in UX, but we'll see how things go.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 May 2005 10:27 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Nothing like reviving a dead thread... However, it occurs to me that we haven't gone back to look at this again in the light of SPIDER-MAN: BREAKOUT #1, which contains a scene elaborating on the prison break. 

The scene actually has to be subdivided in order to fit with the scenes in NEW AVENGERS. that it's obviously tied to. Pages 7-8 are a double page spread; the first three panels simply show the to the explosion seen at the end of NA #1, with no characters visible, and can simply be ignored. Panel 4, which fills the remainder of the page, is a repeat of Jigsaw snapping Spider-Man's wrist on page 4 panel 3 of NEW AVENGERS #2. However, a slightly different selection of characters are visible this time round, and there's some added dialogue from Ironclad and X-Ray. 

SM:B pages 9-11 show the Corruptor and his gang watching from the sidelines Cap and Spider-Man fight the horde of villains. It's concurrent with pages 18-19 of NEW AVENGERS #2 (since it repeats the scene of Ironclad hurling Captain America into the air). 

So who can we see in these two scenes? 

Let's start with the page 4 double-spread, working left to right by head:- 

1. The guy bottom left seems to match the guy labelled as Barbarus in the NA #1 director's cut. 
2. One of the Brothers Grimm. 
3. A bald albino who I don't recognise - the Absorbing Man? 
4. Shockwave 
5. Spider-Man 
6. Armadillo 
7. One of the Blood Brothers 
8. Blackout (he's got the same dreadlocks as Blackout does in NA). 
9. Pale-looking bald guy with something on the side of his head. 
10. Weird-looking grey person 
11. Slug 
12. Jigsaw 
13. White guy with black hair - could be anyone 
14. Scarecrow 
15. Vermin 
16. White guy with light brown hair. Could be anyone. 
17. Corruptor. (Who, by the way, isn't in NA #1-2 at all, but must be behind the scenes in both issues.) 
18. Griffin 
19. Grey Gargoyle 
20. Another mystery bald guy 
21. The Crusader (the guy with glasses - he's got them in NA 2 as well) 
22. Typhoid Mary 
23. Some green reptile guy 
24. Zzzax 
25. Mystery guy with spiky hair. 
26. Controller. 
27. Background figure, hard to see. 
28. Slightly more visible background figure. If that's a pencil moustache rather than just a shading line, it might be Cutthroat. 
29. Another bald guy with silvery-looking skin 
30. Vapor. 
31. The Purple Man. (Or possibly just a guy reflecting the colour from X-Ray, who's standing next to him - but Purple Man is definitely in the breakout, so why not...) 
32. Ironclad 
33. X-Ray 
34. Hard-to-see fair-haired guy in the bottom-right-hand corner - Foolkiller? 
35. Mandrill 
36. Vector. 

There's also a couple of people behind Vector who are so obscured or shadowy that they can't be seen at all. 

As for the next few pages, the following characters are in the crew who escape on the boat: Crossfire, Corruptor, Mr Fear, Controller and Mandrill. Crossfire is thus behind the scenes in NEW AVENGERS #1-2. Incidentally, SM:B #2 establishes that Alan Fagan is the Mr Fear in this story. There's also a large number of generic villains, although many of them are so far in the background that they can't be identified. The identifiable ones seem to be:- 

Controller, Slug, Mandrill, Shockwave, Scarecrow, Crusader, all of the U-Foes, the Brother Grimm, Vermin and Crossbones. The rest all seem to be generic cannonfodder rather than attempts to represent any particular character. I suppose it's possible that the woman who's dead centre in page 10 panel 1 might be Typhoid.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 May 2005 11:48 am    
By Jason Doty

Should'nt Sauron get a behind the scenes since he was the reason Elektro broke into the prison. That also could be how Barbarious ended up back in the Savage Land?

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 11:54 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Sauron is behind the scenes in issue #1, and visible in one panel of issue #2. (He's the guy Electro's carrying when he flies away from the prison on a beam of electricity...)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 12:04 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Oh, and there's also a scene in issue #4 where we're shown some characters who are known to have escaped the Raft. Some of them weren't seen in previous issues, but they must have simply escaped behind the scenes. (Not entirely unreasonable - the ones who stopped to fight the heroes got kicked in. The ones who escaped did the sensible thing and ran as soon as the cells were open.) Nitro and Chemistro seem to be on the screen, so they must have been BTS in New Avengers #1-2. (I'd argue that they weren't necessarily BTS in the flashback in New Avengers #3, since they might have left by then.) 

Razorfist is also shown on the screen, and he's confirmed as an escapee in TOXIN #1. TOXIN also presents Cobra as a Raft escapee, as I recall.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 May 2005 01:47 pm
By loki

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Should'nt Sauron get a behind the scenes since he was the reason Elektro broke into the prison. That also could be how Barbarious ended up back in the Savage Land? 
<<<

The now revealed detail that it was Brain Child and co who hired Electro means Barbarus presence in the prison isn't so bizarre after all - the Mutates had come to New York to get Sauron, and somehow Barbarus got himself arrested, perhaps even on purpose (I could see Brain Child hiding some sort of scanners/recording devices on him, and sending Barbarus in to provide some needed inside info, before deciding to recruit Electro as the ideal guy to handle the breakout).

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2005 12:48 pm    
By jannepie

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
Oh, and there's also a scene in issue #4 where we're shown some characters who are known to have escaped the Raft. 


Razorfist is also shown on the screen, and he's confirmed as an escapee in TOXIN #1. TOXIN also presents Cobra as a Raft escapee, as I recall. 


I could recognize Slug, Nitro, Typhoid Mary, Grey Gargoyle, Jigsaw, Blood Brother, Brother Grimm, Centurius, 
Scarecrow, Mandrill, unknown, Razorfist (which one?), Armadillo, Crusader, Answer 
Mr. Fear, Blackout, Zzzax, Molecule Man, Vermin, unknown, Controller, Chemistro (which one?) 

Who are the ones I didn't recognize?

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 01 May 2005 03:19 pm    Post subject: TALES TO ASTONISH 59-64/2 (Hulk stories)
By shandrakor

Hey Paul, sorry it's been so ridiculously long, but better late than never, I guess. 

There's not a lot of temporal references through these issues. Clothing is pretty much always the same, weather is basically always clear and sunny. Considering we're talking about New Mexico, I can tell you from experience that that narrows it down to 10 months out of the year (and periodic days in the other two). Rather than type out everybody's fashion and weather and such every time, I'm only going to point out items that differ from the status quo, if that's alright with you. 

~J. Darien Riffe 

EDIT: Corrected TTA 60/2 to reference JIM 112. Also corrected subject line. 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #59 (1-18) 
One day, sometime after ASM 14. The avengers watch footage of Hulk fighting Spider-Man and wonder how he's doing these days. Human Top sees that Giant Man is hogging the headlines, and determines to beat him this time. Giant Man and Wasp start to go out for dinner, but then Giant Man changes plans and decides to rush off to NM and find Hulk. Bruce Banner, frustrated that Giant Man is looking for Hulk, runs off into the desert and becomes Hulk, who starts rampaging in a nearby town. Giant Man chases Hulk while Human Top chases Giant Man, and everyone conveniently interferes with everyone else so that nobody gets hurt. Giant Man remains entirely unaware of Human Top's presence. Eventually, Giant Man and Hulk fight, Hulk is about to win when the military launches a bomb at the city. Hulk deflects the bomb, presumably killing Human Top, and changes back to Banner. Giant Man heads back home. 
Characters: 
IRON MAN/TONY STARK 
GIANT-MAN/HANK PYM See Goliath From Dr. Pym See Goliath 
THOR/DR. DONALD BLAKE/SIGURD JARLSON II/JAKE OLSON/LOREN OLSON [ASGARDIAN] 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
WHIRLWIND/DAVID CANNON 
WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #60/2 (2-4p3) 
One day, sometime after JIM 112. Banner is working in a lab hidden in the desert to cure himself of Hulk, while working at the base on a robot armor suit designed to study nuclear explosions. Betty and General Ross are both suspicious of what Banner does when he disappears periodically. Banner realizes that it's stress that changes him into Hulk. A mysterious figure watches from the shadows, trying to figure out how to steal the robot. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
*Unnamed Spy 
*LEADER/SAM STERNS-BTS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #60/2 (4p4-10) 
Very early morning, the day after TTA 60/2 (2-4). Banner, working through the night to finish the robot in time for a morning test, hears the spy, chases after the noise and becomes Hulk. The spy, seeing that Banner has left, climbs into the robot and runs off. The robot arrives on the test course and appears to start the tests, but Hulk interferes and starts a fight with the robot. The robot defeats Hulk when he changes back to Banner, and Banner vows to construct a second robot that can defeat the first. General Ross tells him that's a stupid idea, and he shouldn't get any more involved. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Unnamed Spy 
*LEADER/SAM STERNS-BTS 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #61/2 (1-2p1) 
Concurrent with the fight scene at the end of TTA 60/2. Presents no new information. 

TALES TO ASTONISH #61/2 (2p2-2p3) 
The same day as TTA 60/2 (4-10). The spy, still wearing the stolen robot armor, finds one of Banner's hidden labs, and begins using the materials inside to construct a missile to use against the army base. 
Characters: 
*Unnamed Spy 
*LEADER/SAM STERNS-BTS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #61/2 (2p4-10) 
One day, sometime after TTA 60/2 (4-10). Banner has finished an electronic scanner to track down the robot, and Major Talbot arrives on the base to head up security. He meets with General Ross, who explains his suspicions regarding Banner. Along with Betty, they go to Banner's lab to discover that he's disappeared, again. Banner finds the robot, becomes Hulk, rescues Talbot and Betty from the robot, throws the robot into a bottomless pit, and is knocked unconcious while stopping the missile from destroying the base. Talbot finds the unconcious Hulk and chains him up. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
*Unnamed Spy 
LEADER/SAM STERNS-BTS 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #62/2 (1-10) 
The same day as TTA 61/2 (2-4). Leader sends Chameleon to determine why he's lost contact with the spy from the previous issues. Hearing about Hulk's capture, Rick Jones also flies to New Mexico. Chameleon replaces General Ross, and tries to enlist Hulk's help, but Hulk changes to Banner when nobody's looking and escapes, with the help of Rick. Banner offers his help to the real Ross in tracking Hulk down, but is quickly captured and replaced by Chameleon. Chameleon finds a prototype Gamma Bomb and steals it, but is stopped by Hulk. Elsewhere, Leader decides that it's time to step in directly. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 
CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #63/2-FB (2p2-2p5) 
One day, "less than a year" before TTA 63/2. Sam Sterns is working as a laborer in the basement of a chemical research plant when a gamma ray canister explodes. He is bombarded by gamma rays for "almost a full minute". 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #63/2-FB (2p6) 
One day, shortly after TTA 63/2-FB (2p2-2p5). Sam Sterns is in the hospital, apparently unharmed by the gamma rays. He is reading two large stacks of books and having the nurse bring him more. 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #63/2-FB (2p7-3p2) 
One day, sometime after TTA 63/2-FB (2p6). Sam Stearns is reading in a library when he becomes dizzy and loses conciousness. When he awakes, he has turned green, and his head is very large. 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #63/2 (1-3) 
The same day as TTA 62/2. Leader is pleased over having completed his Humanoid. Chameleon changes out of his Banner disguise, but remains on base. Banner is ordered to accompany one of his nuclear devices on a train transport to another base, and Talbot is sent along to keep an eye on him. 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 
CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 

TALES TO ASTONISH #63/2 (4-10) 
One day, shortly after TTA 63/2 (1-3). Banner and Talbot board the transport train, and Chameleon notifies Leader about the shipment. Leader activates his Humanoid and sends it after the train. The Humanoid attacks, Banner is locked away where he can't cause trouble, but he becomes the Hulk and breaks out. The Humanoid disconnects the rear portion of the train, but Hulk leaps over to the rear car, and they fight. Hulk disrupts Leader's control of the Humanoid and transforms back to Banner just in time to be caught with the stolen nuclear device. Leader vows to learn more about Hulk, while Banner is locked in prison. 
Characters: 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 
TALBOT, GLENNOT 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #64/2 (1-2p4) 
One day, some time after TTA 63/2 (4-10). Banner has General Ross bring him some tranquilizer pills before he is transported to Washington DC for his trial. Betty can't believe that Banner is a traitor, but Talbot vows to win her heart now that Banner is out of the way. Chameleon lets Leader know that they're still planning to test the nuclear device on a deserted island. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENNOT 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 

TALES TO ASTONISH #64/2 (2p5-10) 
One day, sometime after TTA 64/2 (1-2). In Washington DC, Banner's lawyer informs him that unless he's willing to tell what really happened, there's not much that can be done for him. Rick Jones shows up and offers to help. Jones uses his Avengers ID card to get in and meet with the President. He tells the President that Banner is Hulk and explains what really happened with the bomb. The President promises to keep the secret, and has Banner released. He is immediately transported to Astra Island to test his device. Banner arrives just as a hoarde of Humanoids attack the island, becomes Hulk, fights with the Humanoids and is overpowered. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Unnamed Lawyer 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
*The President 
TALBOT, GLENNOT 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids

			*	*	*

Thread 53

Posted: 02 Feb 2005 12:31 am    Post subject: FF/DS2/WCA2/ROA
By SKleefeld
Director

Okay, this one's been nagging me to figure it out for years, so I took tonight and blew off studying for an exam tomorrow in favor of working this frickin' thing out once and for all. This isn't so much an issue analysis as it is a story analysis. I've gone through the original Rama-Tut story and worked out how it weaves in with additions that were added later. This is presented as a sort of MU chronology, rather than a character specific chronology, so the parts of the story that occur in the "present" aren't notated below. What I also haven't listed here are appearances that show up in the re-tellings and flashbacks that weren't shown in the original. Most notable are Dr. Strange's BTS astral appearances in both FF 19 and ROA 3-4. But, without further ado... 

ROA 2 pg. 11 p. 1 FB 
2958 BC - Rama-Tut crashes in anicent Egypt. He later cites that, when he captures the West Coast Avengers in 2940, he has been ruling for ten years. A minor issue here, though, is that in ROA 1, there is a span of seventeen years given between Apocalypse's birth and the appearance of the Fantastic Four, AND that Rama-Tut was already instituted as Pharoah at the time of Apocalypse's birth. Since we clearly establish in other stories that Rama-Tut had multiple reigns, I placed the orignal crash prior to Apocalypse's birth and am assuming that there is a period during Apocalypse's adolescence where Rama-Tut is removed from the throne temporarily. Thus, his line in WCA2 21 would refer to ten years of CONTINUOUS rule. 

FF 19 pg. 11 p. 1 FB 
Same crash, a half-second later. 

ROA 2 pg. 11 p. 2-3 FB 
Baal finds Rama-Tut in the wreckage. Appearances by Baal, Rama-Tut. 

FF 19 pg. 11 p. 2 FB 
Rama-Tut realizes he can't see. Appearances by Rama-Tut. 

ROA 2 pg. 11 p. 4 FB 
Rama-Tut is healed by Baal. Appearances by Baal, Rama-Tut. 

FF 19 pg. 11 p. 3 FB 
Rama-Tut takes control using his advanced technology. Appearances by Rama-Tut. 

ROA 1 pg. 1-6 
2957 BC - Apocalyse is born. Appearances by Apocalypse, Baal. 

ROA 2 pg. 12 p. 1-3 FB 
Rama-Tut returns to Baal's tribe, looking for Apocalypse. Appearances by Baal, Rama-Tut. 

ROA 1 pg. 7-23 
Rama-Tut rules Egypt and recognizes Apocalype's potential. Appearances by Apocalypse, Ozymandius, Logos, Rama-Tut, Nephri, Baal. 

ROA 2 pg. 1-10 
Baal and Apocalypse wander around and find Rama-Tut's underground technology. Appearances by Apocalypse, Baal, Ozymandius, Nephri, Rama-Tut, Logos. 

ROA 2 pg. 12 p. 4 - pg. 22 
Apocalypse begins to realize his power. Appearances by Apocalypse, Baal, Ozymandius, Logos, Nephri. 

WCA2 20 pg. 22 
2940 BC - The West Coast Avengers, trying to deal with a partially-working time machine, land in ancient Egypt only to be captured by Rama-Tut, who seems to have been expecting them. He stuns them into unconsciousness. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra, Rama-Tut. 

WCA2 21 pg. 1 p. 1 
WCA2 21 pg. 2 - 4 
WCA2 21 pg. 10-11 
WCA2 21 pg. 15 - 16 p. 4 
Rama-Tut captures the West Coast Avengers and drops them in the desert to die. The priests of the Temple of Khonshu find them and bring them to the Temple. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra, Khonshu, Khonshu Priest, Rama-Tut. (Note that this is an actual appearance of Khonshu. I later cite instances of his statue which is supposed to imply his presence, without necessarily showing it literally.) 

FF 19 pg. 6-8 
The Fantastic Four go back in time to find an optic nerve restorer for Alicia Masters. They fight with an army of Egyptians before being captured by Rama-Tut himself. Again, he stuns them into unconsciousness. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl. 

ROA 3 pg. 1-6 
Apocalypse is enslaved to help build a pyramid. Appearances by Apocalypse, Ozymandius, Isis. 

WCA2 22 pg. 1 p. 1 
The Avengers are led by a Khonshu Priest. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra, Khonshu Priest. 

DS2 53 pg. 3 p. 4 - pg. 6 
Stehpen Strange, searching for Morgana Blessing's soul, travels back in time. Searching through Rama-Tut's Sphinx, he unexpectedly encounters a barrage of automatic blasters that render him unconscious. Appearances by Dr. Strange. 

WCA2 22 pg. 6 p. 4 - pg. 8 
The West Coast Avengers run across Strange being carried away by two droids. The attack the droids, only to have more come out of the woodwork. Four new droids pick up Strange and carry him off as the Avengers battle the hordes of robots. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra, Dr. Strange, Khonshu Priest. 

DS2 53 pg. 8 p. 5 
Strange is carried away by four robots. Appearances by Dr. Strange. 

WCA2 22 pg. 9 p. 1 
The robots carry Strange into a room. Appearances by Dr. Strange. 

DS2 53 pg. 9 p. 1-3 
Just as the lid closes on the sarcophogus, Strange manages to release his astral form which would have trapped it inside. This scene is duplicated in WCA2 23 pg. 7 p. 4 FB. Appearances by Dr. Strange. 

WCA2 22 pg. 9 p. 3-5 
The Avengers arrive just after sarcophagus lid closes. They try to release Strange but, since Wonder Man can't even open the lid, they opt to let him remain in stasis while they look for the Fantastic Four. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra, Dr. Strange. 

DS2 53 pg. 9 p. 4 - pg. 10 p. 4 
Strange wanders around in his astral form and is surprised to find Rama-Tut's throne room. Just after he enters, the guards bring forth the still-unconscious Fantastic Four. Strange scans Reed's mind to see the events leading up to their capture. Appearances by Dr. Strange, Rama-Tut, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Thing, Human Torch II. 

ROA 3 pg. 7 p. 1-3 
Rama-Tut gloats to himself. Appearances by Rama-Tut, Logos. 

WCA2 22 p. 10 p. 1-4 
The Avengers continue to run through the corridors and find a room which is monitoring the throne room. As they enter, they see the Fantastic Four beginning to gain consciousness. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra, Rama-Tut, Invisible Girl, Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic. 

FF 19 pg. 9 p. 1-2 
The Fantastic Four awaken and Rama-Tut makes introductions. This scene is duplicated in ROA 3 pg. 7 p. 4 and DS2 53 pg. 10 p. 5. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Rama-Tut. 

ROA 3 pg. 7 p. 5 - pg. 8 p. 1 
Logos questions his ruler's actions and notes that they're speaking in an unusual language. Appearances by Rama-Tut, Logos. 

FF 19 pg. 9 p. 3-4 
More introductions and posturing. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Rama-Tut. 

ROA 3 pg. 8 p. 2-4 
Rama-Tut dismisses Logos, who questions what he's been witness to. Appearances by Rama-Tut, Logos. 

FF 19 pg. 9 p. 5 
Rama-Tut recounts his origin. This scene is duplicated in ROA 3 pg. 8 p. 5-6. Appearances by Rama-Tut. 

FF 19 pg. 11 p. 4 - pg. 12 p. 2 
More recounting. This is duplicated (in somewhat mutated forms) in DS2 53 pg. 11 p. 1-2 and ROA 3 pg. 9 - 10 p. 2. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Rama-Tut. 

DS2 53 pg. 11 p. 4 - pg. 12 p. 2 
Rama-Tut dismisses the FF and has the Invisible Girl sent off to get dolled up. Strange's astral body is shocked into "unconsciousness" from an encephaloprobe on his real body. Appearances by Dr. Strange, Human Torch II, Invisible Girl, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Rama-Tut, Morgana Blessing. 

FF 19 pg. 12 p. 3-5 
Rama-Tut humiliates the FF. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Rama-Tut. 

ROA 3 pg. 10 pp. 3 - pg. 16 
Apocalypse meets Nephri and finds out what happens to Logos. Appearances by Apocalypse, Nephri, Rama-Tut, Ozymandius, Logos, Osiris, Invisible Girl. 

ROA 3 pg. 17-22 
Sunrise, the next day. Appearances by Apocalypse, Nephri, Ozymandius, Rama-Tut, Logos. 

ROA 4 pg. 1-14 
The same morning. Apocalypse rebels against Tut and his lackeys. Appearances by Apocalypse, Rama-Tut, Oxymandius, Nephri, Logos. 

DS2 53 pg. 12 p. 3 - pg. 13 p. 1 
Strange wakes up "over an hour later" and finds Morgana Blessing. Appearances by Dr. Strange, Morgana Blessing, Invisible Girl, Thing. 

FF 19 pg. 13 p. 1-2 
Susan's makeup is finished and she is escorted away. Appearances by Morgana Blessing, Invisible Girl. 

FF 19 pg. 13 p. 3 - pg. 14 p. 2 
Ben's big escape sequence. This sequence is duplicated in DS2 53 pg. 13 p. 2-5 and WCA2 23 pg. 7. p. 5-6 FB. Appearances by Thing. 

DS2 53 pg. 13 p. 8-9 
Strange directs Ben back towards Rama-Tut's throne room. Appearances by Dr. Strange, Thing. 

FF 19 pg. 14 p. 3-5 
Ben barges in on Rama-Tut and Susan being entertained by Torch. This scene is duplicated in DS2 53 pg. 14 p. 1-2. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Rama-Tut, Invisible Girl. 

WCA2 22 pg. 12 p. 5 - pg. 13 
The Avengers finish off the robots and run into a room full of guards. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra. 

FF 19 pg. 15 
The Thing releases Susan, who releases Torch. Johnny then attacks Rama-Tut, who flees into a secret passage. This is duplicated in DS2 53 pg. 14 p. 2-5 and WCA2 23 pg. 7 p. 7 FB. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Rama-Tut, Invisible Girl. 

WCA2 22 pg. 14 p. 1 
The Avengers battle the guards. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra. 

FF 19 pg. 16 p. 1-2 
Rama-Tut escapes via a secret passage. This is duplicated in WCA2 22 pg. 14 p. 2. Appearances by Rama-Tut. 

FF 19 pg. 16 p. 3-6 
The Fantastic Four begin to make their escape. Partially duplicated in DS2 53 pg. 15 p. 1-2. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Invisible Girl. 

DS2 53 pg. 15 p. 3-6 
Strange directs Blessing to release his body. Appearances by Dr. Strange, Morgana Blessing. 

FF 19 pg. 17 
The Fantastic Four rescue Reed. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl. 

DS2 53 pg. 16 p. 1-5 
Rama-Tut runs into Strange and Blessing and activates some automated defense lasers. Just as Blessing and Strange leave... Appearances by Dr. Strange, Rama-Tut, Morgana Blessing. 

FF 19 pg. 18 - 19 p. 2 
The Fantastic Four melt their way into the heart of the Sphinx where Strange was just standing. They discover Rama-Tut on a viewscreen. This scene is duplicated, in part, in DS2 53 pg. 16 p. 6-7. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Rama-Tut. 

ROA 4 pg. 15 
Ozymandias wanders the corridors of the Sphinx and sneaks past the Fantastic Four as they find the aforementioned viewscreen. Appearances by Ozymandius, Human Torch II. 

DS2 53 pg. 17 
Strange uses the Eye of Agamotto on Blessing. Appearances by Dr. Strange, Morgana Blessing. 

FF 19 pg. 19 p. 3 - pg. 20 p. 3 
Rama-Tut unleashes more traps on the Fantastic Four. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl. 

WCA2 22 pg. 17 p. 4-6 
The Avengers finish off the guards and try another corridor. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra. 

ROA 4 pg. 16-18 
Apocalypse starts destroying Rama-Tut's technology within the Sphinx. Appearances by Apocalypse, Ozymandius. 

WCA2 22 pg. 18 p. 1-4 
The Avengers, still in the Sphinx, feel the place begin to fall apart. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra. 

ROA pg. 19 p. 1 
Rama-Tut's escape pod begins its launch. 

DS2 53 pg. 18 p. 1-4 
Strange and Blessing stand outside the Sphinx and watch. Appearances by Dr. Strange, Morgan Blessing. 

FF 19 pg. 20 p. 4-6 
Reed and Rama-Tut exchange taunts, as Rama-Tut launches his escape capsule. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Rama-Tut. 

WCA2 22 pg. 18 p. 5-6 
The Avengers see Rama-Tut's escape on a viewscreen. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra. 

ROA 4 pg. 19 p. 2 
Egyptians outside watch Rama-Tut's escape and begin to panic. 

FF 19 pg. 21 p. 1-5 
The Fantastic Four find the optic nerve restorer and leave the Sphinx. This scene is duplicated in WCA2 22 pg. 19 p. 1-4 and ROA 4 pg. 19 p. 3. Appearances by Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl. 

WCA2 22 pg. 19 p. 5-6 
The Avengers are right behind the Fantastic Four. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra. 

FF 19 pg. 21 p. 6 
The Fantastic Four run across the desert sand as the Sphinx begins to explode. This scene is duplicated in ROA 4 pg. 19 p. 4. Appearances by Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Human Torch II, Invisible Girl. 

DS2 53 pg 18 p. 5 - pg. 19 p. 4 
Strange and Blessing watch the Sphinx explode and exchange goodbyes. Strange leaves. This scene is duplicated in WCA2 22 pg. 20 p. 1-4. Appearances by Dr. Strange, Morgana Blessing. 

WCA2 22 pg. 20 p. 5-6 
The Avengers leave the Sphinx. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra. 

FF 19 pg. 22 p. 1 
The Fantastic Four see the time machine effect activated over their heads. This is the last scene of the original story with the Fantastic Four in ancient Egypt. This is duplicated in WCA2 22 pg. 20 p. 7. Appearances by Human Torch II, Invisible Girl, Mr. Fantastic, Thing. 

WCA2 22 pg. 21 - 22 p. 1 
The Avengers watch as the Fantastic Four vanish. Appearances by Hawkeye, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Tigra, Invisible Girl, Human Torch II, Thing, Mr. Fantastic. 

WCA2 23 pg. 5 p. 5 - pg. 7 p. 3 
WCA2 23 pg. 7 p. 8 - pg. 8 p. 6 
The Avengers battle some Egyptian guards and head back to the Temple of Khonshu, where a priest tells them how all the storylines intertwine. Appearances by Iron Man, Hawkeye, Wonder Man, Tigra, Statue of Khonshu, Khonshu Priest. 

ROA 4 pg. 20 
Apocalypse emerges from the now-destroyed, but still smoldering, Sphinx. Appearances by Apocalypse. 

WCA2 23 pg. 17 - 19 p. 3 
The Avengers are saved by Hank Pym, Firebird, and Moon Knight. Appearances by Hank Pym, Moon Knight, Firebird, Iron Man, Tigra, Wonder Man, Hawkeye, Statue of Khonshu, Khonshu Priest. 

ROA 4 pg. 21-22 
2810 BC - Apocalypse visits an aging Nephri for the last time. Appearances by Apocalypse, Nephri. 

[Editted to correct a few typos that could have confused matters.]

Last edited by SKleefeld on 02 Feb 2005 09:48 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2005 08:16 am 
By Enda80

The Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix#1 also features a meeting between Seth and En Sabah Nur. Try fitting that in.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2005 09:28 am    
By jephyork
Director

Or don't, seeing as it's just an extremely flawed retelling of his vision of Isis. Chalk it up to "faulty 5000-year-old memory". 

Good job, Sean.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2005 09:45 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Well, I don't have the issue, so that makes it a bit difficult to place for me.  

That said, my understanding is that Apocalypse's meeting with Seth is very similar -- if not the same -- scene shown in ROA 3 pg. 1-6 where he meets Isis. If both accounts are accurate, then FACP 1 would fit in right around there. However, it's also my understanding that the scene in FACP 1 is told by Apocalypse himself in 1859. I figure it's reasonable to think that, over the course of 4,500+ years, he may have mis-remembered things a bit. But, like I said, I don't have the issue, so I'm not sure what makes the most sense. 

To be a truely complete analysis of anicent Egypt, I'd also need to incorporate Hulk 456-457, X-Men: Search for Cyclops 1-2, and Cable #57 -- not to mention all the later appearances of Rama-Tut. But I was more concerned with the FF/Strange/WCA storyline since those are woven together more intricately. I might take a look at some of these other issues later, though.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Feb 2005 12:08 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Couple of easy additions, if anyone's interested... 

X:SC 2 pg. 1-3 FB 
Apocalypse is hunted down by an angry mob. Occurs between ROA 1 pg. 6 and ROA 2 pg. 12 FB. Appearances by Apocalypse. 

X:SC 2 pg. 20 panels 1-2, 5 FB 
A continuation of the prior mob scene. Apocalypse is cornered and starts to fight back. Occurs right after X:SC 2 pg. 3 FB. Appearances by Apocalypse. 

X:SC 1 pg. 1-4 FB 
330 BC -- Apocalypse enters a battle between the Egyptians and Alexander the Great's army. Occurs after ROA 4 pg. 22. Appearances by Apocalypse.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 May 2005 10:03 pm    
By Kang

A few comments, since I apparently did some extra work trying to put together all of the Rama-Tut appearances: 

I know issue analyses are more about spotting appearances, but Rama-Tut's revelation in a few pages puts him and his gun hidden off-panel on page 8 of FF 19, so he deserves a BTS for that. 

Quote: 
>>>
FF 19 pg. 11 p. 3 FB 
Rama-Tut takes control using his advanced technology. Appearances by Rama-Tut. 
<<<

The text in the box does not support that. It suggests that he flailed around firing his weapon moments after the crash. Either it fits before Baal nurses him to health or it is discredited by ROA as a valid flashback. Since I don't have the issue on hand, I am not sure which is the case. Is it possible a scene of him flailing and shooting can fit right before he goes unconscious? 


Quote: 
>>>
FF 19 pg. 11 p. 4 - pg. 12 p. 2 
... 
DS2 53 pg. 11 p. 4 - pg. 12 p. 2 
<<<

There is a flashback in Avengers Forever 9 (pg. 5 p. 2) that seems to fit in this gap. Artistically, it is a reproduction of the cover of FF 19 with changes for consistency (such as Sue's costume). It is presented in that issue as a flashback, though. It requires Rama-Tut and Sue to leave the room with the three male FF as they are marched away, then return to the room for their Dr. Strange appearance. It is the only possible place for it to exist, though. 

Also, the beginning of the throne room scene is seen in WCA2 22 pg 10 pn 2 with identical dialogue, so the timetable is probably a little off. 


Thank you for doing this, though. I was trying to construct Rama-Tut's history, and this definitely fills in a large chunk.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 May 2005 11:41 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Kang wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
FF 19 pg. 11 p. 3 FB 
Rama-Tut takes control using his advanced technology. Appearances by Rama-Tut. 
<<<

The text in the box does not support that. It suggests that he flailed around firing his weapon moments after the crash. Either it fits before Baal nurses him to health or it is discredited by ROA as a valid flashback. Since I don't have the issue on hand, I am not sure which is the case. Is it possible a scene of him flailing and shooting can fit right before he goes unconscious? 
<<<

In ROA, it shows that Rama-Tut was rendered unconscious by the crash, and he doesn't wake up until after Baal starts nursing him back to health. Since it doesn't really make sense that he could conquer all of Egypt firing blindly with a ray gun, I pushed this scene a little later than is suggested (but not expressly stated) by the accompanying text. 


Kang wrote: 
>>>
Also, the beginning of the throne room scene is seen in WCA2 22 pg 10 pn 2 with identical dialogue, so the timetable is probably a little off. 
<<<

Actually a lot of these types of scenes are a little off. There are plenty of instances throughout this sequence where a scene is shown one way, and artists' later interpretations don't quite line up with the dialogue. 


Kang wrote: 
>>>
Thank you for doing this, though. I was trying to construct Rama-Tut's history, and this definitely fills in a large chunk. 
<<<

Certainly. It was a sequence that had been nagging at me for a quite a while.

			*	*	*

Thread 54

Posted: 02 May 2005 03:21 pm    Post subject: TALES TO ASTONISH 65/2-69/2 ~ A 17 (Hulk stories)
By shandrakor

Well, aren't I just being excessively productive the last couple days? Here's another batch of 5 TTAs, plus Avengers 17 thrown in as a bonus  

~J. Darien Riffe 

EDIT: Corrected entry to list General Ross to match the Marvel Index. 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #65/2 (1-4) 
Immediately following TTA 64/2 (2-10). Soldiers find Hulk fighting the Humanoids and attack with grenades, knocking the whole bunch into the ocean. Leader orders the Humanoids home while Hulk transforms back into Banner and is picked up by a nearby Russian submarine. Back on Astra Isle, Talbot receives word that Banner was sighted on the submarine, and becomes convinced that he has defected to the Russians. Leader concludes that Hulk got his power the same way he did, and decides to capture Banner in order to lure out and recruit Hulk. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 
TALBOT, GLENN 

TALES TO ASTONISH #65/2 (5-10) 
Sometime later from TTA 64/2 (1-4). Banner hasnt been fed in two days. He is taken to a weapons research center where he will be forced to design weapons for the Soviets. Despite witnessing scientists being disciplined for resisting, Banner refuses to help, so he is locked in a tiny cell. Banner deliberately becomes Hulk and trashes the base. He is slightly wounded by their vaporizer ray, but is assisted by the scientist he saw being disciplined earlier. The base commander calls for a squadron of tanks, then heads out to personally use the new prototype proton gun to kill Hulk. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Professor Stromm 
*Unnamed scientist 
*Unnamed Soviet base commander 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #66/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 65/2 (5-10). The base commander fires the proton gun at Hulk, but the freedom-loving scientist throws himself in front of the beam and is killed instead. Enraged that his friend has been killed, Hulk trashes much of the base before becoming so agitated that he reverts to Banner and loses conciousness. Back at the Pentagon, it is decided that there is too much risk in sending a mission to retrieve Banner. Betty refuses to accept the possibility that Banner is a defector. Chameleon informs Leader of Banners defection, and after contacting his Russian allies to get information about Banners whereabouts, he contents himself to continue watching from a distance. Shortly after regaining consciousness, Banner recalls the scientist sacrificing himself, becomes angry and turns back to Hulk in time to face off against the horde of tanks. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Unnamed scientist 
*Unnamed Soviet base commander 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 
CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #67/2 (1-7p3) 
Immediately following TTA 66/2. Hulk defeats the tank squadron and bounds away toward Mongolia. As the sun goes down, Hulk sits down, falls asleep and turns back into Banner. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #67/2 (7p4-8p2) 
The day after TTA 67/2 (1-7). Banner awakens to a group of Mongolian bandits holding guns. They hold him hostage while sending a ransom demand to the American government. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Kanga Khan 

TALES TO ASTONISH #67/2 (8p3-8p4) 
One day, not long after TTA 67/2 (7-8). At the Pentagon, Major Talbot is ordered to fly to Mongolia and retrieve Banner. 
Characters: 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 

TALES TO ASTONISH #67/2 (8p5-10) 
One day, Sometime later from TTA #67/2 (8). Talbot meets up with the Mongolian bandits, but before he can buy Banners freedom, the camp is attacked by another bandit tribe. Talbot and Banner escape up a mountain trail, but it collapses and they fall off a cliff. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*Kanga Khan 
*Hakun Ganto 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #68/2 (1-4) 
Immediately following TTA #67/2 (8-10). While falling, Banner changes to Hulk and catches Talbot, who fainted from the fall. Hulk leaps his way from isle to isle back to the desert base in America. He falls asleep on his couch, turns back into Banner, and is arrested by General Ross. Meanwhile, Leader has perfected miniaturized Humanoids, which he plans to scatter over Astra Isle and use to steal the Absorbatron. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
TALBOT, GLENN 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 

TALES TO ASTONISH #68/2 (5-7p3) 
One day, days later than TTA 68/2 (1-4). Talbot has been recovered from Mongolia, and is ordered by the President to return with Banner to Astra Isle and finally test the Absorbatron. Leader scatters his miniaturized Humanoids over Astra Isle, while Talbot retrieves Banner from prison, again. Banner is becoming quite frustrated with the fact that even Rick Jones is starting to wonder whether hes a spy. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*The President 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #68/2 (7p4-10) 
One day, probably the day after TTA 68/2 (5-7). Talbot and Banner arrive on Astra Isle and have it cleared of soldiers. Leader takes advantage of the soldiers absence to activate his Humanoids, which grow to full-size and attack. Talbot is quickly overwhelmed, and Banner changes to Hulk when attacked. The Humanoids now carry sleep gas, however, and Hulk is knocked unconscious. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
LEADER/SAM STERNS-BTS 
*Humanoids 

Note: In the final segment, Leader is never shown on panel, but he controls the Humanoids mentally, so he must be BTS. However, his orders are spoken through one of his Humanoids, so hes effectively got speech bubbles here. Is that sufficient for a full appearance? 

----- 

AVENGERS #17 (2-3p2) 
The day after A 16 (13-20) and the day before TTA 68/2 (7-10). The newest Avengers are having their first scheduled meeting. Theyve just finished a tour of the mansion underground, and Captain America declares that the first order of business is to locate Hulk. Without Thor, Iron Man and Giant Man, Cap believes that they need Hulk as a muscle figure. They send word to the press, and radio announcements go out about the search for Hulk. 
Characters: 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
QUICKSILVER/PIETRO MAXIMOFF 
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF 
HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 

AVENGERS #17 (3p3) 
The morning after A 17 (2-3) and the same day as TTA 68/2 (7-10). Front page headlines show that the Avengers are looking for Hulk, and direct anyone who spots him to call. 
Characters: 
Hulk in photograph 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (1-3p2) 
Immediately following TTA 68/2 (7-10). Leader arrives on Astra Isle and has his Humanoids gather up Hulk and the Absorbatron. The fleet offshore spots the Humanoids milling about on the island and sends a landing party to investigate. Before they get there, Leader sprays his Humanoids with acid gas and they all vanish. 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (3p3) ~ AVENGERS #17 (3p4) 
Immediately following TTA 69/2 (1-3). Same panel in both books, Hulk and the Absorbatron are being towed along behind Leaders ship with a magnetic attractor beam. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
LEADER/SAM STERNS-BTS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (3p4-4p3) 
Immediately following TTA 69/2 (3p3). The landing party arrives and wakes Major Talbot. They discover that the Absorbatron is missing, and Talbot again concludes that Banner and Hulk are working together as spies. They have tracked Leaders ship on radar and will head out after it immediately. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 

AVENGERS #17 (3p5-9p4) 
Immediately following TTA 69/2 (3p3). The Avengers train in their Play Room. Just as the training session wraps up, they are attacked by a robot that isnt part of the simulation. It claims to know something about the location of Hulk, and when they defeat it, they get a message that Youll-find-Hulk-in-desert. Elsewhere, Mole Man is disappointed that his robot failed to kill them, but that his Minotaur will defeat them when they fall into his trap. The Avengers fly out to the desert, following Captain Americas hunch that they should go to where Hulk helped them defeat the Lava Men earlier. 
Characters: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
QUICKSILVER/PIETRO MAXIMOFF 
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF 
HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 
MOLE MAN/HARVEY RUPERT ELDER 
*Sub-Humans 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (4p4) ~ AVENGERS #17-FB (9p5) 
Immediately following TTA 69/2 (3-4), a few minutes earlier than A 17 (9p3). Same panel in both books, Leaders ship arrives at his base, through an entrance camouflaged in the top of a mesa. 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS-BTS 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER-BTS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (4p5-7) 
Immediately following TTA 69/2 (4). Leader places Hulk into a chamber to regulate the flow of knockout gas, and heads downstairs to get some more equipment. The constant gas changes Hulk back to Banner, and then acts as an anti-toxin to wake Banner up. Banner fiddles with some equipment in the containment chamber to broadcast a warning signal in Morse Code. Nearby, General Ross and Major Talbot have tracked Leaders ship to the general area of the Desert Base and head out to search, with orders to shoot Banner on sight. Rick Jones overhears and follows, hoping for some way to rescue Banner. The army discovers Banners signal and follows it to Leaders base. Leader returns to the observation room, finds Hulk missing from the table, and pumps in a double-dose of gas. This has the effect of changing Banner back to Hulk, but not knocking him out. 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (8p1) ~ AVENGERS #17 (9p6) 
Immediately following TTA 69/2 (4-7) and minutes after A 17 (3-9). Same panel in both books. Hulk smashes free of Leaders containment chamber. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 

AVENGERS #17 (10-14p1) 
Immediately following A 17 (9p6). The Avengers a dropped through a trap door into the cavern of the Minotaur. They fight it, but are unable to defeat it, and are then separated from Quicksilver by a rockslide. 
Characters: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
QUICKSILVER/PIETRO MAXIMOFF 
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF 
HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 
MOLE MAN/HARVEY RUPERT ELDER 
*Sub-Humans 
MINOTAUR 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (8p3-8p4) ~ AVENGERS #17 (14p2-14p3) 
A few minutes after TTA #69/2 (8p2) and immediately following A 17 (10-14). Same panels in both books. Hulk smashes through another wall and comes face-to-face with Leader in the same room as the Absorbatron. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (8p5-10p5) 
Immediately following TTA 69/2 (8p4) and concurrent with A 17 (14-20). Hulk is wounded by Leaders Molecule Ray. Banner exerts enough control over Hulks mind to make him destroy the Absorbatron. Leader reaches his escape tunnel and zips away on his rocket sled. The army arrives and finds the wreckage, and one soldier shoots at Hulk. Rick Jones shows up and tries to convince them to let Banner live, but its too late, as they find the body of Bruce Banner, not moving and apparently not breathing. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 

AVENGERS #17 (14p4-20p5) 
Immediately following A 17 (14) and concurrent with TTA 69/2 (8-10). Quicksilver is attacked by Sub-Humans, is gassed, and taken before Mole Man. The Avengers trick Minotaur into head butting a rock and getting its horns stuck, then use Scarlet Witchs hex power to remove the rockslide. They confront Mole Man who frees Quicksilver and launches them all to the surface rather than have to fight them. They conclude that Hulk isnt necessary after all, since they fight so well together. 
Characters: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
QUICKSILVER/PIETRO MAXIMOFF 
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF 
HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 
MOLE MAN/HARVEY RUPERT ELDER 
*Sub-Humans 
MINOTAUR 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (10p6) ~ AVENGERS #17 (20p6) 
Immediately following TTA 69/2 (8-10) and A 17 (14-20). Same panel in both books. Talbot tells everyone that Banners pulse is very weak, and then that it has stopped. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT-BTS 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK-BTS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #69/2 (10p7) 
Immediately following TTA #69/2 (10p6). Talbot declares that Bruce Banner is dead. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER-BTS 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT-BTS

Last edited by shandrakor on 08 May 2005 01:24 pm; edited 4 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 May 2005 04:56 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
TALES TO ASTONISH #67/2 (1-7p3) 
Immediately following TTA 66/2. Hulk defeats the tank squadron and bounds away toward Mongolia. As the sun goes down, Hulk sits down, falls asleep and turns back into Banner. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #67/2 (7p4-8p2) 
The day after TTA 67/2 (1-7). Banner awakens to a group of Mongolian bandits holding guns. They hold him hostage while sending a ransom demand to the American government. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Kanga Khan 

TALES TO ASTONISH #67/2 (8p3-8p4) 
One day, not long after TTA 67/2 (7-8). At the Pentagon, Major Talbot is ordered to fly to Mongolia and retrieve Banner. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 

TALES TO ASTONISH #67/2 (8p5-10) 
One day, Sometime later from TTA #67/2 (8). Talbot meets up with the Mongolian bandits, but before he can buy Banners freedom, the camp is attacked by another bandit tribe. Talbot and Banner escape up a mountain trail, but it collapses and they fall off a cliff. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*Kanga Khan 
*Hakun Ganto 

Note: Contrary to the MCP, I dont think that General Ross is in this issue. There is a grey haired military figure, but he does not appear to have a mustache, and his dialogue doesnt seem to fit with Ross. 
<<<

 
1. In my copy of TTA 67, it's a white-haired military figure. 

2. He's Major Talbot's superior officer. 

3. I'm not sure how you can gather that the figure doesn't have a mustache, since he's essentially facing away from the reader in both panels. 

4. To my mind, his dialog fits with Ross to the same extent that Talbot's dialog fits Talbot. In any case, whether it..."feels"...like the character's dialog has to be pretty far down in the criteria for determining a character, especially in the early Silver Age. 

5. George Olshevsky says it's Ross in the Marvel Index. 

All things considered, I stand by the listing. 


watching: catherine cryer

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 May 2005 05:19 pm    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
1. In my copy of TTA 67, it's a white-haired military figure. 
<<<

I think of white with heavy black highlights as grey, but same difference. 


Quote: 
>>>
2. He's Major Talbot's superior officer.  
<<<

Well, he's superior to Talbot, but nothing says he's the direct superior. 


Quote: 
>>>
3. I'm not sure how you can gather that the figure doesn't have a mustache, since he's essentially facing away from the reader in both panels. 
<<<

I felt the first panel was enough of a profile, but it's not like this is the most detailed art in the world. 


Quote: 
>>>
4. To my mind, his dialog fits with Ross to the same extent that Talbot's dialog fits Talbot. In any case, whether it..."feels"...like the character's dialog has to be pretty far down in the criteria for determining a character, especially in the early Silver Age.  
<<<

You're right about the Silver Age, I just felt that the dialogue was far too detached when referring to Banner. I didn't feel like this was a character with any direct interest in Banner like Ross has. 


Quote: 
>>>
5. George Olshevsky says it's Ross in the Marvel Index. 
<<<

I figured that would probably end up being the case, and in this situation, I absolutely bow to the Index. I'll edit the above entry to fit.

			*	*	*

Thread 55

Posted: 05 May 2005 03:03 am    Post subject: TALES TO ASTONISH 70/2-74/2 (Hulk stories)
By shandrakor

Here's another batch of 5. Hope everything meets your needs, Paul. Let me know if you need any changes made. 

~J. Darien Riffe 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #70/2 (1-4p3) 
A few minutes after TTA 69/2 (10p7). The military is wrapping up their search of Leader's base, and has concluded that both Leader and Hulk have escaped. Their frustration mounts when they discover that Bruce Banner's body is missing as well. Rick Jones stole Banner's body and is driving it out to one of the cave labs in the desert. Rick zaps Baner with Gamma Rays in a hope of reviving Hulk. Banner becomes Hulk and wakes up, but retains the mind of Banner. Because of the bullet in his skull, he can't change back to Banner, or he'll die again. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #70/2 (4p4-10) 
The day after TTA 70/2 (1-4). Leader contacts his Russian allies, downplays the loss of the Absorbatron, and offers to sell them the "greatest offensive weapon" for a billion dollars. They agree, if he will demonstrate it by destroying the nearby base. Leader activates his 500-foot tall Humanoid, and commands it to destroy the base, planning to turn on the Russians once he has the money. Banner invents a formula to keep him in Hulk form for 48 hours at a time. He goes to see Betty one last time, and witnesses Talbot trying to get with Betty now that Banner is dead. The giant Humanoid attacks the base, Hulk attacks the Humanoid, and the army attacks both. Hulk and the Humanoid are stunned by missile fire but both get back up again, so the army wheels out the "Sunday Punch" disintigrator missile, while Rick runs out to try and warn Hulk. 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
*Humanoids 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT, GLENNOT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #71/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 70/2 (4-10). Warned of the incoming missile, Hulk grabs Rick and leaps away. Propelled by the blast, they land a great distance away from the base. The giant Humanoid is knocked out of commission, but before the military can investigate it, Leader causes it to self-destruct. Hulk, already starting to lose the full effects of Banners mind, carries Rick to his lab to check on his machines, but accidentally leads the army to the cave entrance. After losing another couple tanks, General Ross threatens to drop an atomic bomb on Hulks cave. Hulk forces Rick to leave the cave and run to safety and then Leader appears and offers Hulk the choice to either serve him, and be teleported away, or stay and die when the bomb drops. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
*Humanoids 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #72/2 (1-6) 
Immediately following TTA 71/2 (1-10). Having apparently been bluffing about the nukes, and not interested in Rick Jones plea for mercy, General Ross approves a strike against the cave with conventional missiles. Hulks cave is destroyed, and inside the rubble, realizing that without his lab hell die in less than 48 hours anyway, he agrees to go with Leader. He is teleported to Leaders base, where he discovers the Humanoid army, and learns of Leaders plan to take over the world. Hulk threatens to stop Leader, but then collapses from an odorless sleeping gas that filled the room. That evening, back at the cave, the military has dug their way inside and found the broken lab equipment. Talbot theorizes that Hulk might be the result of one of Banners experiments. General Ross orders Rick Jones locked up for questioning. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 

TALES TO ASTONISH #72/2 (7-10) 
Early morning, the day after TTA 72/2 (1-6). Leader looks out over the sleeping city of Rome, where his current base is apparently disguised as an art gallery. He checks that Hulk is still sleeping, and expecting the effects to last at least another two hours, leaves to continue his work on amphibious Humanoids for conquering Atlantis when hes done with the surface. Hulk awakens as Leader leaves the room, and discovers that the sedative is hastening his change back to Banner. He fights off the change, and breaks free of the containment chamber, facing off against a band of Humanoids. As the fight progresses, he gets steadily weaker, feeling himself about to change. 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Humanoids 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #73/2-FB (6p3) 
One day, some time before TTA 73/2, prior to TTA 73/2-FB (6-7), but after Leaders creation in TTA 63/2-FB (2-3). Leader finds the blue area of the moon through his telescope. 
Characters: 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #73/2-FB (6p4-7p1) 
Time-lapse sequence, sometime after TTA 73/2-FB (6p3), weeks before either America or Russia launched satellites into space. Leader launches a satellite to investigate the blue area of the moon. He discovers Uatu the Watcher, tracks him in his wanderings, creating stronger, more powerful telescopes until he finds the Watchers home planet. 
Characters: 
UATU 
LEADER/SAM STERNS-BTS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #73/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 72/2 (7-10). As Hulk is about to change, Leader bursts into the room, and the natural gamma ray force in his body prevents the transformation. Examining the unconscious Hulk, Leader discovers the bullet in his brain, which he removes with some of his technology. He infuses Hulk with gamma rays to restore his strength, but overdoes it, and Hulk is left completely unable to change back to Banner. Leader runs some tests to prove how strong Hulk is, and then explains that he wants Hulk to rob the Watcher homeworld. Before Hulk can ask too many questions, Leader converts him into a thought wave and beams him to Watchers world. There, Uatu explains that Hulk is free to explore without interference. Leader telepathically directs Hulk to the machine he wants stolen, but he is attacked by Qnax. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Humanoids 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
UATU 
QNAX 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #74/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 73/2 (1-10). In order to protect his equipment, Uatu transports Hulk and Qnax to another world where they can fight in peace. They fight until Uatu is convinced that Hulk has won, at which point he transports Qnax back home, and returns Hulk to the garden on the Watchers world. Hulk takes the Ultimate Machine, which contains all knowledge in the universe, and is yanked back to Earth by Leader. Leader sticks his head in the machine, absorbs too much knowledge, and drops dead. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
QNAX 
UATU 
LEADER/SAM STERNS

			*	*	*

Thread 56

Posted: 06 May 2005 05:37 pm    Post subject: TALES TO ASTONISH 75/2-79/2 (Hulk stories)
By shandrakor

Hey look, it's some Hulk stories that are not about Leader. That guy's been in or BTS all but one of the last fifteen Hulk stories. I'm sick of the guy and I've only been reading his apperances for a week instead of a year and a half. Anyway, here's some time travel and good ol' fashioned angsty Hulk persecution. 

~J. Darien Riffe 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #75/2 (1-6) 
Immediately following TTA 74/2 (1-10). Hulk, whose personality has degraded to approximately Grey Hulk level, takes the Ultimate Machine from Leaders body and leaps his way to the Alps where he can be alone and think for a while. Back at the desert base, scientists have finished building a T-Gun, based on Banners designs, but they dont actually know what it does. General Ross orders it to be well protected, then takes out his frustration over not finding Hulk on Talbot and Betty for a while. In prison, Rick Jones muses that Hulks origin occurred years ago, and then begs to be allowed to meet with the President, but is turned down. Back in the Alps, Hulk decides to prove that hes stronger than Leader by using the Ultimate Machine. He is quickly overwhelmed, but removes it before suffering damage, and Uatu forces him to retain the knowledge that Rick is begging to meet with the President. Once Hulk leaps away, Uatu reclaims the Ultimate Machine, knowing that mankind is not ready for it. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
LEADER/SAM STERNS 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
UATU 

TALES TO ASTONISH #75/2 (7-10) 
The day after TTA 75/2 (1-6). Hulk is identified by a north coastal radar station, and a warning is sent that he appears to be making his way towards Washington DC. Hulk is attacked and slowed down long enough to have the untested T-Gun brought to Washington. Hulk arrives at the capital, is blasted with the T-Gun, and disappears completely. He finds himself transported to the same location in the distant future, and is immediately attacked by men with guns. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*King Arrkam 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #76/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 75/2 (7-10). Hulk fends off the attackers, but is subdued by a weapon that increased gravity and pinned him to the ground. The attackers identify this time as the 25th century. Back in the present, everyone is confused because no trace of Hulk can be found, but the weapon didnt behave like a disintegrator ray. General Ross, in trouble for losing Hulk, takes Talbot and goes to confront Rick Jones, determined that he must know the answer. In the future, King Arrkam begs Hulk to assist in their war against the Evil One, and when Hulk refuses, he is attacked by Arrkams troops. He breaks free of Arrkams fortress, spies the Evil Ones army and goes to investigate. He is quickly confronted by the Evil One, who is actually the Asgardian Executioner. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*King Arrkam 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*Deputy Chief of Staff 
*EXECUTIONER II/SKURGE [ASGARDIAN] 

Note: Executioners appearances in this and the next issue are incorrectly listed in the MCP. His listing shows TTA 76, 77. It should be 76/2, 77/2. 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #77/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 76/2 (1-10). In the 25th century, Hulk and Executioner fight. Back in the present, Rick Jones honestly admits that he knows nothing of Hulks whereabouts and that he thought Hulk was killed by the T-Gun. General Ross finally realizes that he cant hold Rick forever without cause, so he is set free. Rick heads out to one of the desert caves, where recent events finally catch up with him, and he has an emotional breakdown. He is confronted by Talbot, and finally confesses the truth, that Banner and Hulk are the same person. It is dark outside as they leave the cave to return home. In the future, Hulk battles Executioner, trashes much of his army, and is confronted by King Arrkam and his troops. As the battle progresses, Hulks personality fluctuates, becoming more and more savage. Suddenly, he simply fades away, traveling back to his own time, reappearing in the desert cave shortly after Rick and Talbot leave. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*EXECUTIONER II/SKURGE [ASGARDIAN] 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*King Arrkam 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #78/2 (1-2p3) 
Immediately following TTA 77/2 (1-10). Hulk is disoriented by being jerked through time, and what little remained of Banners influence fades. His personality returns completely to Savage Hulk level. He leaves the cave and wanders aimlessly. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #78/2 (2p4-10) 
The day after TTA 78/2 (1-2). One of Talbots patrols locates Hulk and messages that information back to base. Talbot is just welcoming Dr. Zaxon, Banners replacement, whose studies focus on organic energy rather than gamma rays. When the message comes in, Talbot rushes away, activating a plan to capture Hulk and, for the moment at least, is successful. On the base, Rick has just shared Banners secret with Betty when Talbot arrives and tells them about Hulks capture. Everyone gathers around Hulks cage, now finding it hard to believe that Ricks story is true. Study of Hulk is given over to Dr. Zaxon, who secretly plans to extract Hulks limitless organic energy and use it to conquer the world. That night, Zaxon puts on a suit of armor and releases Hulk from his prison, aiming an organic energy attractor gun at him. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Doctor Konrad Zaxon 
TALBOT, GLENN 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #79/2 (1-3p6) 
Immediately following TTA 78/2 (2-10). Dr. Zaxon uses the organic energy attractor on Hulk, but discovers that instead of draining all the energy away, all he has done is angered Hulk, and made him stronger. Hulk swats the weapon away from Zaxon, it bounces off a wall and the beam sweeps across, draining Zaxon to death. Two soldiers witness Hulk bounding away, and report that he must have murdered Dr. Zaxon. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Doctor Konrad Zaxon 

TALES TO ASTONISH #79/2 (3p7-10) 
The day after TTA 79/2 (1-3). Hercules is riding a train to Hollywood with a movie producer, and they overhear a radio announcement that Hulk has killed and escaped. Talbot leaves the base to hunt for Hulk, bringing Rick Jones along because Hulk trusts him, and leaving Betty behind where its safe. Hulk tears up some train tracks to defend himself against attacking planes, which forces Hercules train to stop. Hulk and Herc fight without a clear winner and Hulk bounds away when the army strikes the area with artillery. Hercules personally carries the train across the damaged portion and continues on his way. 
Characters: 
HERCULES [GREEK GOD] 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER

Last edited by shandrakor on 08 May 2005 01:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 07 May 2005 08:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for all these posts, shandrakor. Your analyses are much appreciated. I've copied and compiled these posts and will use them when I get around to building (actually, heavily refining) the early years of the calendar. Well done! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 57

Posted: 07 May 2005 09:14 pm    Post subject: TALES TO ASTONISH 80/2-84/2 (Hulk stories)
By shandrakor

I want to have something interesting to say, but it's a pretty blah set of issues. Enjoy. 

EDIT: Added entry for Gorki after discovering his name in the next issue. 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #80/2 (1-4) 
Sometime after TTA 79/2 (3-10). Full moon. Hulk is muttering about being hounded by the military when he is beamed underground. Hulk starts to attack the sub-humans around him, but an ancient-looking Tyrannus convinces him to wait and listen. He offers to make Hulk a warlord in his empire and give him a home away from the army on the surface if he can retake the fountain of youth from Mole Man. Hulk agrees. Over at the fountain of youth, Mole Man learns that Tyrannus has befriended Hulk and activates the Octo-sapien to defend the well. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*TYRANNUS 
*Sub-humans 
MOLE MAN/HARVEY RUPERT ELDER 
*Octo-sapien 

TALES TO ASTONISH #80/2 (4-10) 
The day after TTA 80/2 (1-4). Tyrannus learns that Hulk has eaten, and gone to take a nap. Knowing that he hasnt much time to live, Tyrannus becomes enraged, reveals to Hulk that Rick Jones, Major Talbot and Betty Ross are also his prisoners, and threatens to kill them if Hulk doesnt go immediately to recover the well. Hulk flies off the handle, trashing everything around him, destroying Mole Mans forces and fighting the Octo-sapien simply because they happen to be around. When the Octo-sapien explodes, it knocks Hulk into the fountain of youth, transforming him into Bruce Banner. 
Characters: 
*TYRANNUS 
*Sub-humans 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
TALBOT, GLENN 
MOLE MAN/HARVEY RUPERT ELDER 
*Octo-sapien 

Note: Tyrannus appearances in this and the next issue are listed incorrectly in the MCP. Listing shows TTA 80, 81. Should be 80/2, 81/2. 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #81/2-FB (1-2) 
One day, sometime between TTA 79/2 (1-3) and TTA 80/2 (4-10). Narration implies that this is concurrent with Hulks escape in TTA 79/2 (1-3), but the events dont really mesh with that scene. Im inclined to put a gap between TTA 79/2 and TTA 80/2, during which the army was hounding Hulk, and place this scene somewhere in there. Hulk is being attacked by soldiers, General Ross is shouting orders, and Hulk is shot by an Orion missile which knocks him to the ground. 
Characters: 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #81/2 (1-4p1) 
The same day as TTA 80/2 (4-10). Leaders of the Secret Empire study footage of a battle where the army used an Orion missile against Hulk. They radio Boomerang and order him to steal the missile from the base. 
Characters: 
*Number Five (Secret Empire) 
*Number Seven (Secret Empire) 
*Number ? (Secret Empire) 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
*Fred Meyers Girlfriend 

TALES TO ASTONISH #81/2 (4p2-10) 
Immediately following TTA 80/2 (4-10). Banner has slipped into a side passage unnoticed, where he watches the battle and tries to form a plan to rescue his friends. Tyrannus arrives but is so old and frail that he is easily dispatched even by Banner. Tyrannus reveals that he sent Banners friends back to the surface, so Banner leaves to find a tunnel up. Tyrannus discovers a puddle of water from the well on the ground (perhaps dripped from Bruce Banners clothing), and vows revenge against everyone who abandoned him. On the surface, Betty, Talbot and Rick are quickly found by an army patrol, but their escort is attacked on the way back by Boomerang. Boomerang captures Betty, intending to trade her for the Orion missile. Down below, Banner stumbles back into the battle, changes to Hulk and rampages through the fight. He is subconsciously directed by Banner into Tyrannus temple, where he finds the transporter and is beamed back to the surface. 
Characters: 
MOLE MAN/HARVEY RUPERT ELDER 
*Sub-humans 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
TYRANNUSNUS 
TALBOT, GLENN 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #82/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 81/2 (4-10). Hulk arrives on the surface, right in the middle of a missile testing range, attracting attention and quickly bounding off. General Ross arrives, angry that they failed to capture Hulk, and meets with Major Talbot and Rick Jones to learn that Betty was freed from Tyrannus, and then recaptured by Boomerang. The leaders of the Secret Empire are pleased with Boomerangs progress, but Number Five trips a booby trap on the console and is killed by poison. The other two leaders present theorize that the ambitious Number Nine set it. Hulk and Boomerang meet and fight, with Boomerang only escaping by throwing Betty to Hulk and fleeing to a nearby helicopter. General Ross heads out with his troops to rescue Betty, leaving Talbot to guard the Orion missile. Rick stows away in the back of an army truck headed after Hulk. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
*Number Five (Secret Empire) 
*Number Seven (Secret Empire) 
*Number ? (Secret Empire) 
*Gabe Jones as Number Nine (Secret Empire)-BTS 
FURY, COL. NICHOLAS NICK JOSEPH-BTS 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #83/2 (1-4p4) 
The same day as TTA 82/2 (1-10). It has suddenly begun raining. Hulk carves a cave out of a stone wall, and he and Betty crawl inside to wait out the storm. Boomerang learns that General Ross has taken most of the forces away from the base and decides to try stealing the missile again. Not long afterwards, General Ross calls a halt to his troops and begins to send out search parties. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
*Two leaders of the Secret Empire 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 

TALES TO ASTONISH #83/2 (4p5-10) 
Early morning, the day after TTA 83/2 (1-4). The storm has passed, and with the rain stopped, Hulk decides to build a fire and look for some food. As he leaps up to look for food, he is quickly spotted by General Ross task force, which opens fire. Back at the base, Boomerang starts a fire to make the soldiers remove the Orion missile from its hangar. The leaders of the Secret Empire bicker over whether to kill Boomerang for his earlier failure, but are betrayed and knocked unconscious by a stun grenade from Number Nine. Hulk fights the army, but is talked down by Rick Jones. Hulk carries Rick and General Ross to Betty, and then bounds away to be alone again. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
*Numbers 2-4, 5-8 (Secret Empire) 
*Gabe Jones as Number Nine (Secret Empire) 
*FURY, COL. NICHOLAS NICK JOSEPH-BTS 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #84-FB (9p2-9p3) 
One day. Footage of Hulk that is virtually impossible to place. Simply images of Hulk holding a boulder over his head. Unless the desert base has two news crews hanging around, then this probably dates to sometime before TTA 80/2 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #84/2-FB (5p4-7p1) 
Concurrent with, then immediately following TTA 83/2 (6p5). Boomerang attacks the desert base, planning to steal the Orion missile. He is looking to be successful, but then Major Talbot threatens to detonate the missile and kill them all, rather than let Boomerang get away with it. Realizing that hes been outmaneuvered, Boomerang flees the scene. 
Characters: 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
TALBOT, GLENN 

TALES TO ASTONISH #84/2-FB (7p2) 
The very next day from TTA 84/2-FB (5-7) and TTA 83/2 (4-10). Major Talbot is awarded a medal for saving the Orion missile from Boomerang. Immediately after the medal ceremony, the desert base is shut down, and the missile is shipped to Cape Kennedy. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 

TALES TO ASTONISH #84/2 (1-2p4) 
One day, sometime after TTA 84/2-FB (7p2). Hulk concludes that since he rescued Betty, people wont hate him anymore. Getting lonely, he heads to the desert base, only to discover that it has been shut down and abandoned. He then decides to look up the Avengers and see if they want to hang out. He bounds off to the east, looking for New York. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #84/2 (2p5-4) 
One morning, early dawn, sometime after TTA 84/2 (1-2). Full moon. Hulk arrives in New York, and attracts the attention of nearby radar operators. Feeling uncharacteristically subtle, Hulk steals a hat and coat. Half a day later, the weather in New York is hot and sunny. Hulk still hasnt found the Avengers, and finally attracts the attention of the police, who send out an alert. Still feeling subtle, Hulk ducks into a theatre playing a Hulk newsreel rather than picking a fight. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #84 (10p4-11p1) ~ TALES TO ASTONISH #84/2 (5p1-5p2) 
Immediately following TTA 84 (1-10) and TTA 84/2 (2-4). Same panels in both stories. Sub-mariner is revealed by the woman in the cinema and flees into the street. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER-BTS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #84/2 (5p3-10) 
Immediately following TTA 84/2 (5). Hulk watches a newsreel that explains how Major Talbot rescued the Orion missile from Boomerang. In Cape Kennedy, Florida, Rick Jones learns that Hulk has been sighted in New York. Lacking the money to fly up to New York, Rick looks in the classifieds and finds someone who wants their car driven up there. The cars owner demands that Rick not try and open the trunk, and offers a bonus if the car makes it in less than 48 hours. Back in New York, Hulks hat blows off and he is chased by the police and driven into a subway tunnel. Unable to escape out either end of the tunnel, he smashes through the floor. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
*Gorki, a spy 

Notes: 
Im saving a full analysis of the Submariner story until I go back through to do him completely. I grabbed the two intersecting scenes, however. 
Also, the MCP entries for this issue are a bit of a mess: 
Betty is nowhere to be seen anywhere in this issue. 
Boomerang, General Ross and Glenn Talbot are all credited for appearances, but actually appear only in flashback (the cinema newsreel). The placement of the entries shouldn't need moving, just -FB added. 
Hulk is credited for appearing in TTA 84, but he is only BTS in that issue. During the intersecting scene, he is off-panel in the same cinema as Sub-mariner, which I believe qualifies as BTS. 
Nick Fury is credited as BTS. As I understand it, his involvement is that hes behind Gabe Jones infiltrating the Secret Empire. The only way I place him as BTS here is to claim that Fury is behind Gabe becoming Number Nine, who has driven Number One to desperation, who has kidnapped Submariner. Since Submariner appears in a couple frames, Fury is behind the scenes. That seems rather too tenuous a connection to me.

Last edited by shandrakor on 08 May 2005 01:21 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 07 May 2005 09:35 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
Betty is nowhere to be seen anywhere in this issue. 
<<<


It's a typo. Should read "85/2". 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 08 May 2005 12:41 am    
By shandrakor

Alright. I'm going to leave the note I have attached to TTA 85/2 on my next post anyway, just for completeness. 

What are your thoughts on the tenuous Nick Fury BTS appearance?

			*	*	*

Thread 58

Posted: 08 May 2005 01:23 pm    Post subject: TALES TO ASTONISH 85/2-89/2 (Hulk stories)
By shandrakor

I seem to be taking up a lot of space with these posts. Would people prefer that I switch to posting in batches of 10? 

~J. Darien Riffe 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #85/2 (1-10) 
One day, sometime after TTA 85 (1-12) and two days after TTA 84/2 (5-10). Hulk is still being pursued through New York when Rick Jones arrives in the area. Down in Florida, the military launches a test shot of the Orion missile over the Atlantic Ocean. Rick manages to find Hulk causing a major ruckus, drives him away and calms him down. In Florida, military intelligence bursts in on the man who sent his car to New York. It turns out that hes a spy, and before he can be taken away, he activates a robot hidden in the trunk of the car Rick Jones was driving. Hulk quickly defeats the robot, but not before it sends a signal of its own, changing the course of the Orion missile to hit New York. Hulk sees the incoming missile and leaps up to intercept, but as hes dangling from the missile, he suddenly reverts to Banner. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
*BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*Gorki, a spy 

Notes: 
Betty appearance is not credited in the MCP. According to Administrator, the entry for TTA 84/2 is a typo and should be this appearance. 
Hulks MCP entries indicate that TTA 85 occurs after this, instead of before. This must be a typo as well. There is no reason not to place the first story before this one, and it cannot occur immediately after this, as Banner is dangling from a missile at the time. 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #86/2 (1-7p2) 
Immediately following TTA 85/2 (1-10). Before the missile hits, Banner manages to open a hatch and adjust the course enough to shift it into the ocean. Before the impact, he changes back to Hulk again. Rick finds Hulk and leads him to an abandoned warehouse to hide in. Elsewhere, police have discovered another of Leaders laboratories, complete with an improved Humanoid, and General Ross and his people are called in to investigate. Later scenes imply that this laboratory is in New York. Ross declares that since the Humanoids purpose is to destroy Hulk, it should be immediately activated, and shortly before midnight, they succeed. It, of course, refuses to take orders and breaks through the wall and out into the city. Finally, at another secret hideout, (Also later established to be in New York) Boomerang exposits about all the improvements hes made to his equipment since last facing Hulk. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
*Hulk-Killer (Humanoids) 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #86/2 (7p3-10) 
Shortly after midnight, the day after TTA 86/2 (1-7). The Hulk-Killer Humanoid is rampaging through the city, and Talbots soldiers are unable to defeat it, even with an atomic flamethrower and an atomic powered sound cannon. Hulk hears the sounds of battle and joins in, facing off against the Hulk-Killer. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*Hulk-Killer (Humanoids) 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #87/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 86/2 (7-10). Hulk and the Hulk-Killer fight, with the Hulk-Killer obviously having the upper hand. Down in Cape Kennedy, Gorki confesses to sabotaging the Orion missile, but explains that he wasnt in league with Hulk, Hulk had saved Manhattan. Talbot receives word of Hulks innocence and directs his attentions to finding a way to rescue Hulk from the Humanoid. Boomerang, having finished his new costume, and heard about the fight, flies over to witness Hulks defeat. Rick Jones interferes in the fight, is struck down by the Hulk-Killer, and the shock suddenly reverts Hulk into Banner. Banner quickly Macgyvers together a weapon, deliberately becomes Hulk, and remembers just enough to use the gun on the Hulk-Killer. The weapon defeats the Humanoid, but the feedback also knocks Hulk unconscious. Nearby, Boomerang bides his time, intending to kill Banner next time he switches back. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
*Hulk-Killer 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
*Gorki, a spy 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #88/2 (1-10) 
Shortly after TTA 87/2 (1-10). Hulk has recovered from his shock, and the media is surrounding him, hailing him as a hero. Boomerang attacks him from the shadows, provoking an angry rampage. Even Rick Jones is unable to calm him down, and he bounds out of the city. Because of his actions, Hulk misses out on a tentative presidential pardon. Boomerang chases Hulk out of the city and they fight. Boomerang ends up blowing up a dam in an attempt to kill Hulk, but is dragged into the water himself instead. Hulk tries to save Boomerang, but tranquilizer gas that Boomerang had used against him earlier in the fight causes him to revert to Banner, and Boomerang is dragged away by the current. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*The President 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #89/2 (1-10) 
One day, sometime after H2 393/2 (1-5). Banner is lying unconscious on a rock when he is awakened by the Stranger. Stranger wants Hulk to rampage around and cleanse the Earth, so that the remnants of humanity can rebuild a better civilization. Banner, unsurprisingly, doesnt think thats a very good idea. Back at the reopened desert base, both Betty and Rick are trying to convince General Ross to leave Hulk alone, but hes tired of hearing their arguments. Stranger forces Banner to transform, but Hulk doesnt like the idea of serving Stranger either. Stranger forces Hulk into a machine that saps his will, and a mindless Hulk is commanded to go out and destroy everything. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
STRANGER 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK

			*	*	*

Thread 59

Posted: 25 Oct 2004 09:50 pm    Post subject: Incredible Hulk v1 #1-6
By shandrakor

Since my grasp on modern Marvel isn't good enough to be of much use here, I'm helping out Paul's Calendar project by doing breakdowns of the year 1-12 stuff. So, to start things off, here's Incredible Hulk v1 #1-6. 

INCREDIBLE HULK #1 (1-8p2) 
One day, a few weeks before H 2 (1-3). Bruce Banner is about to test the G-Bomb when he sees Rick Jones in the testing area. He orders Igor to stop the countdown and runs out to save Rick. Igor allows the bomb to detonate, and Banner is caught in the radiation explosion, but survives unharmed. That night, as it gets dark, he transforms into Grey Hulk and breaks out of the base hospital, wandering into the desert, trying to return home. Partly cloudy, full moon. All in long sleeves, Rick in jacket when outside. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
DRENKOV, IGOR 
ABOMINATION/EMIL BLONSKY-BTS 

INCREDIBLE HULK #1 (8p3-21p7) 
The day after H 1 (1-8p2). Hulk arrives at his home to find Igor searching for the G-Bomb plans. He knocks Igor out, just as the sun comes up and he returns to being Banner. Military Police take Igor away, wondering what happened to Hulk. In his cell, Igor contacts The Gargoyle in Russia, who immediately travels via missile to the Gamma Base. The Gargoyle arrives as Banner changes to Hulk, mind controls both Hulk and Banner, leading them both away. Partly cloudy. Rick and Banner wearing jackets, Betty in short-sleeved dress. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
DRENKOV, IGOR 
ABOMINATION/EMIL BLONSKY-BTS 
THE GARGOYLE 

INCREDIBLE HULK #1 (21p8-24) 
The day after H 1 (8p3-21p7). The Gargoyle has controlled a truck driver to take them to the coast, which they reach just before dawn. (Clearly the base was not originally imagined in New Mexico.) They take a jet from a convenient Soviet submarine to Russia, arriving during daylight. The Gargoyle complains about being a monster, and Banner offers to cure him of his deformity at the cost of his brilliance. The Gargoyle accepts, is cured, swears off Communism, launches Banner and Rick home in another missile, and then blows up the Russian base, himself inside. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
THE GARGOYLE 

----- 

INCREDIBLE HULK #2 (1-3p2) 
One day, a few weeks after H 1 (1-8). Hulk (now green) rampages through a small town near a swamp, until he is calmed and lead away by Rick Jones. Full moon again, probably topical. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 

INCREDIBLE HULK #2 (4p4-21p4) 
The day after H 2 (1-3p2). Banner and Rick are putting the finishing touches on a stone prison to lock Hulk in at night when Banner is captured by alien Frog Men and taken into their ship, where he becomes Hulk. He trashes their ship before it is shot down by Gen. Ross. Banner walks out of the crashed ship, is accused of being in league with the Frog Men, and is locked up. The Frog Men Use their magnetic forces to push the moon towards the Earth, causing earthquakes and tidal waves. Banner becomes Hulk, breaks free, kidnaps Betty, and hauls her off to Banner's lab in the desert cave. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 

INCREDIBLE HULK #2 (21p5-24) 
Early morning, the day after H 2 (4p4-21p4). Rick arrives at the lab and pleads with Hulk to help save the world. An earthquake knocks Betty unconcious just before sunrise tunrs Hulk to Banner. Banner uses the Gamma Ray Gun to reverse the Frog Men's magnetic fields and send them spiraling out into space, allowing the moon to settle back where it belonged. Banner is freed of 
treason charges before nightfall and is locked into his stone prison. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 

----- 

INCREDIBLE HULK #3 - FB (2p1-2p6) 
The same day as H 2 (21-24). Rick locks Banner in the cave prison for the first time, and Banner explains to never let him out, no matter what. Banner then changes to Hulk. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 

INCREDIBLE HULK #3 (1-11) 
The day after H 2 (21p5-24). Rick Jones stands guard outside the cave prison where Hulk is locked away during the night. Rick leaves the cave for some shuteye, and is captured by the army. He is taken to Gen. Ross, who explains that they need Hulk as a test pilot for an experimental rocket. Rick agrees, frees Hulk, and baits him into the rocket. The rocket is launched, Ross celebrates the defeat of Hulk, and realizing he was tricked, Rick uses the controls to return the capsule to Earth. Because of radiation in space, Banner stays Hulk during the day, and Rick can control him. Rick discovers that he only controls the Hulk while awake and locks him in the cave prison. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 

INCREDIBLE HULK #3/2 (2-4p5) 
The same night as H 3 (1-11). FBI agents investigate Plainville, where the inhabitants are all in hypnotic trance, and the entire town has been robbed. They discover a poster for "Ringmaster Circus." In another town, Ringmaster hypnotizes everyone in town, and his circus performers rob the town blind, before packing up and moving on. 
Characters: 
RINGMASTER II/MAYNARD TIBOLDT 
BRUTO THE STRONGMAN 
CANNONBALL/JACK PULVER 
CLOWN/'CRAFTY' ELIOT FRANKLIN 
GAMBONNO, ERNESTO 
GAMBONNO, LUIGI 
RAJA 
TEENA 

INCREDIBLE HULK #3/2 (4p6-7) 
The day after H 3/2 (2-4). Rick has stayed awake all night to keep control over Hulk. To keep himself awake, he visits his Aunt Polly who lives nearby to wash up. On his way back to the Hulk, he sees the circus and decides to catch a show. When he realizes he's being hypnotized, he summons Hulk, who is defeated and caged by the performers. The circus takes Hulk with them, leaving Rick behind, unable to move. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
RINGMASTER II/MAYNARD TIBOLDT 
BRUTO THE STRONGMAN 
CANNONBALL/JACK PULVER 
CLOWN/'CRAFTY' ELIOT FRANKLIN 
GAMBONNO, ERNESTO 
GAMBONNO, LUIGI 
RAJA 
TEENA 
*"Aunt" Polly (Jones?) - Retconned out of existence. 

INCREDIBLE HULK #3 (8-10) 
"One day later" from H 3/2 (4-7). Rick and the FBI show up at the circus and confront Ringmaster. Hulk goes berserk, captures Ringmaster and is ordered to keep him alive by Rick. When the army shows up, Rick and Hulk flee. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
RINGMASTER II/MAYNARD TIBOLDT 
BRUTO THE STRONGMAN 
CANNONBALL/JACK PULVER 
CLOWN/'CRAFTY' ELIOT FRANKLIN 
GAMBONNO, ERNESTO? 
GAMBONNO, LUIGI? 
RAJA? 

Note: Names of Ringmaster's circus performers are taken from the MCP. None are identified by name in this issue. 

----- 

INCREDIBLE HULK #4  FB (2-6) 
The same day as H 3 (22-24). It is days before" H 4 (1). Betty is on her bed, thinking about first meeting Bruce. Betty comes to the conclusion that there must be a connection between Banner, Rick and Hulk. She sees Gen. Ross testing the iceberg rocket on a Hulk dummy, and tells him about her suspicions. Gen. Ross puts out a priority alert to look for Rick. Meanwhile, Rick is hiding in a cabin with Hulk, drinking coffee to stay awake and wondering what to do. He's had only a few moments sleep since H 2 (4p4). Soldiers arrive, Rick commands Hulk to flee, and is taken into custody, refusing to tell Gen. Ross anything about where Banner is - he's been "missing for days." Hulk, too far from Rick to receive mental commands, wanders on his own, rescuing a bus that's about to be hit by a train. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 

INCREDIBLE HULK #4  FB (7p1) 
The day after H 4 (3p4-6). Newspaper headlines about "Unidentified Flying Object" that saves school bus occupy the headlines "during the next 24 hours." 

INCREDIBLE HULK #4 (7p2-10p1) 
One day, days after H 4-FB (2-6). Hulk disrupts a movie set before being summoned by Rick's distant thoughts. "Not long afterwards," Hulk rescues Rick from soldiers transporting him to an army prison. They go to Banner's lab in the cave, where Rick decides to try using the Gamma machines to try and cure Banner. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 

INCREDIBLE HULK #4 (1) 
The same day as H 4 (7-10). Rick Jones is about to turn on a machine that will hopefully turn Hulk back into Banner. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 

INCREDIBLE HULK #4 (10p2-14) 
The same day as H 4 (1). The dose is too large, and while Hulk changes back to Banner, he's very weak. Banner makes adjustments to the machine, and changes himself back into Hulk, but with Banner's mind in control. That evening, Hulk rescues a family from a burning building, but is attacked for being a monster. He and Rick return to the lab, he changes back to Banner, collapses into bed from exhaustion. Rick is identified as being "sixteen." 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 

INCREDIBLE HULK #4/2 
One day, sometime after H 4 (10-14). An alien craft lands in a park, and large man calling himself Mongu issues a challenge. If he can be defeated hand-to-hand, then he will leave, otherwise, his people will invade the Earth. Banner changes himself to Hulk, and flies with Rick to the Grand Canyon to face Mongu. He reveals that Mongu is a fake, a robot body with a Russian soldier in it whose orders are to capture Hulk. Hulk defeats him and his soldiers, but allows them to flee back to Russia. He returns to his lab and changes back to Banner while soldiers find Mongu's robot body covered in Hulk's fingerprints. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
MONGUSKI, BORIS / MONGU 

----- 

INCREDIBLE HULK #5 - FB (2p2) 
One day, sometime before H 5 (2-4). Hulk is breaking free from a giant magnet trap. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 

INCREDIBLE HULK #5 - FB (2p3) 
One day, sometime before H 5 (2-4). Hulk picks up a multi-story building by it's base. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 

INCREDIBLE HULK #5 - FB (2p3-1p4) 
One day, sometime before H 5 (2-4). Hulk is struck in the chest by a mortar shell and is unharmed. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 

INCREDIBLE HULK #5 (1-4p1) 
One day, sometime after H 4 (10-14). Gen. Ross shows footage of Hulk's abilities to Banner, Betty and Rick. He demands that Banner invent a method to defeat Hulk. Meanwhile, Tyrannus decides that Hulk is the perfect weapon for conquest, and decides that it's time to attack the surface world. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
TYRANNUS 

INCREDIBLE HULK #5 (4p2-11) 
The day after H 5 (1-4). Rick and Banner arrive at Gen. Ross' house and are introduced to "Mr. Tyrannus," an archaeologist who is taking Betty to see some nearby caves. Banner and Rick follow to find the cave sealed off. Banner changes to Hulk at the lab, follows Tyrannus, and is knocked unconcious with gas. Hulk is used as a gladiator, and then for slave labor before Rick frees both Betty and Hulk. Hulk caves in Tyrannus' palace, and all three escape to the surface, with Betty catching convenient amnesia of the day's events. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
TYRANNUS 

INCREDIBLE HULK #5/2 (1-4) 
One day, sometime after H 4 (10-14). It's been long enough that Hulk can refer to doing something "every week." The army tries to use the Iceberg Rocket on Hulk, but he melts free and escapes. Back at the lab, he tells Rick that he's having a harder time deciding to change back to Banner, and that Rick must keep an eye on him. Meanwhile, the people of a small, Asian village tell the High Lama that Gen. Fang is on his way to attack. The High Lama agrees to ask the outside world for help. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
*General Fang 
*High Lama 

INCREDIBLE HULK #5/2 (5-13) 
One day, shortly after H 5/2 (1-4). Rick and Banner hear on the radio about Gen. Fang attacking Llhasa. Banner changes to Hulk, and with Rick,travels to Llhasa, part by airplane, part by jumping. He has brief encounters with the Chinese army, and then scares away much of Gen. Fang's troops by disguising himself as the Abominable Snowman. He is revealed as the Hulk and defeats the rest of Fang's army. He grabs Gen. Fang and abandons him on the island of Formosa, on his way jumping home. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
*General Fang 

----- 

INCREDIBLE HULK #6 - FB (5p5) 
One day. Metal Master is on his homeworld, sculpting metal with his mind. 
Characters: 
METAL MASTER 

INCREDIBLE HULK #6 - FB (5p6) 
One day. Metal Master, convicted of some crime, is sentenced to exile in space. 
Characters: 
METAL MASTER 

INCREDIBLE HULK #6 - FB (5p6) 
The same day as H 6 (2-15). Metal Master comes across the Earth in his wanderings. 
Characters: 
METAL MASTER 

INCREDIBLE HULK #6 (2-15p3) 
One day, sometime after H 5/2 (5-13). Banner's difficulty with transforming to/from Hulk has progressed significantly. Gen. Ross is looking for Banner's help on a missile test, but he is nowhere to be found. Hulk is having difficulty getting to his lab to change back. After escaping the army and changing to Banner, he finds out that Metal Master is holding the base hostage and demands Earth's surrender within 24 hours. Banner changes immediately to Hulk, but his head fails to transform, which he covers in a Hulk mask. Hulk is defeated by Metal Master and locked up by the Army. Rick, spurned by the Hulk and unable to join the army because of his age, buys a ham radio and has the idea of the Teen Brigade. Hulk breaks free of the cell he was locked in. He returns to his lab and changes back to Banner, collapsing from weakness. Rick, collecting his belongings from the lab, finds Banner and helps him to bed. Banner explains a plan to defeat the Metal Master, and Rick's Teen Brigade buddies go to find the necessary items. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
METAL MASTER 
*Various Teen Brigade (I) Members 

INCREDIBLE HULK #6 (15p4-15p5) 
This segment is very difficult. It shows a montage of the Teen Brigade radioing all over the country for the necessary components: "condensers" "tubes and circuits" and "blueprints," which have time to arrive before the next story segment. Since the final product is a cardboard box painted silver, this segment makes no sense at all. Without it, the story can take place in one or two days. With it, the kids spend hundreds of dollars for no reason, and the Metal Master is left in charge of Earth for at least a week without being defeated by any other super teams. I'm new at this, and unsure of the appropriate way to deal with it. 
Characters: 
*Various Teen Brigade (I) Members 

INCREDIBLE HULK #6 (15p6-24) 
One day, sometime after H 6 (2-15). Banner transforms himself to Hulk, finishes his device (apparently a large gun), and with the Teen Brigade's help, tracks down Metal Master. Hulk taunts Metal Master over his inability to control the metal in his gun and lures him close enough to grab. Metal Master corrects all the damage he's done, and agrees to leave Earth forever. Hulk reveals that his "gun" was actually painted cardboard and contained no metal for Metal Master to control, then flees as the army arrives. Hulk uses the machine to transform back, but it has a significantly delayed reaction time. Gen. Ross, furious at the government's pardon of Hulk is interrupted by Banner, who claims to have taken "a few days rest in Bermuda." Skies clear, Betty in short-sleeved dress, all Teen Brigade members in short sleeves or with sleeves pushed up. 
Characters: 
HULK / BANNER, ROBERT BRUCE 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. 'THUNDERBOLT' 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE 'RICK' 
METAL MASTER 
*Various Teen Brigade (I) Members

Last edited by shandrakor on 08 May 2005 01:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 10:18 pm
By Kevin W.
Director

Now here's a REAL test for you, shandrakor: Since you have these early Hulk issues on hand, (in the form of the Essential's volume) can you (or anyone, really) find a way to include the Hulk: Grey miniseries into the pages of Hulk 1 and 2? 

I've already done a review for Hulk: Grey, which can be seen here... 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=134 

If not, that's okay...the task stumped me months ago, (and I have a reprint of Hulk #1).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 10:23 pm    
By shandrakor

Well, I haven't read Gray, but there's that "few week" gap between 1 and 2. I don't suppose that serves your purposes, does it? 

Let me take some time to look over your analysis.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 10:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I should have warned you, shandrakor, that someone would bring up that whole Hulk: Grey thing if you posted this... 

Of course, taking a shot at reconciling these comics is totally up to you. If you wish to continue on with the Hulk's adventures in TTA, so be it. 

And a public "thank you" to you for taking on this enormous task of posting analyses from Essentials volumes!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 10:40 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yeah, sorry to put you on the spot there. I was looking forward eagerly to your Essentials chronology reviews, and when you up and posted The Hulk as your first review, I was like, "OOOH! That reminds me! Hulk: Grey is still a chronology mess!"  

Feel free to say "pass" if you want to about adding in current day titles into Silver Age continuity, (a task that becomes harder and harder with each passing year)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 12:37 am    
By SeanCurtin

shandrakor wrote: 
*"Aunt" Polly (Jones?) - Retconned out of existence.  


Are you sure? I thought she was at Rick's wedding. 

-Sean

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 12:56 am    
By shandrakor

Was she? Then why the hell did he have to live in an orphanage? 

Hang on, lemme look. *phew* No Aunt Polly identified by name in 417-419, nor does anyone stand out as drawn like her.

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Posted: 08 May 2005 01:47 pm    
By shandrakor

I just threw an edit in on H 1 when I discovered that Emil Blonsky is credited for a BTS apperance in the MCP. 

I'm not entirely clear on the basis for the BTS though. Igor was taking his orders directly from Gargoyle, and there's nothing in Emil's origin in TTA 90/2 to indicate he's been there since H 1. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

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Thread 60

Posted: 13 May 2005 09:23 am    Post subject: Amazing Spider-Man and the X-Men in Arcade's Revenge!
By Jason Doty

I'll start analyzing the promos and giveaways with my magazine box. 

The Amazing Spider-Man and the X-Men in Arcades Revenge, Special Edition, December 1992 

(7 pages and the cover is part of the story, It is a magazine size, paper insert that I believe was givin away in Total a British Nintendo Magazine and published by Marvel UK and inserted by Akklaim Entertainment LTD) 

Story: Starts out with Wolverine and Spider-Man fighting robot versions of Juggernaut and Obnoxio the Clown, in Murder World. Spider-Man recalls how he witnesed the Murder World garbage truck abduct Gambit, and he was going to help. In his control tower Arcade witnesses the battle while viewing Storm, Gambit, and Cyclops fighting their own death traps. Arcade expected Spider-Man and unleashes a Carnage robot. Spider-Man thinks about his origin, and then fights the robot. Soon, Arcade's control chamber is broken into by Spider-Man and Wolverine. Storm, Cyclops, and Gambit come in from another direction. Arcade bis amazed that they have escaped his new traps, but says he saved the best for last, a Giant Arcade robot. Gambit and Cyclops try blasting it with their powers, but when the smoke clears it is still there. Spider-Man, tired of playing Arcade's games punches him in the face rendering him unconcious. The robot collapse's because it was controlled by Arcade's brainwaves through an unseen device. Later Spider-Man returns home to find out MJ has purchased him a new Nintendo system with games he can battle super-villians on, including Arcades Revenge and Spider-Man-Return of the Sinister Six. 

This story could definatly fit within continuity! (but placement help would be helpful) 

Chronological clues: 
(The story happens in the course of an evening) 
(Cyclops, Gambit, and Storm are all in their Jim Lee era costumes and Wolverine is in his yellow and blue and has metal claws) 
(Spider-Man says that the last time he fought Carnage that he was almost killed) 
(Spider-Man and MJ appear to be living in an apartment) 

Characters: 
Spider-Man (Between ASM 363 and Morbius 1) 
Wolverine (Between GR3 29 and M/CP 109) 
Gambit (Between GR3 27 and X 10-FB) 
Arcade (Between M/CP 99/2 and S-M 25) 
Storm (Between UX@16 and UX 288) 
Cyclops (Between GR3 27 and UX 288) 
Mary Jane Watson-Parker (Between ASM 361 and Morbius 3-FB) 

* My key to placement was Spider-Man's battle with Carnage, and the X-Men's and Spider-Man's interaction with Ghost Rider and Arcade, in 1992.

Last edited by Jason Doty on 14 May 2005 09:30 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 14 May 2005 09:25 am    
By Jason Doty

I attempted to offer placement in my above post. Tell me what you think about placement.

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Posted: 15 May 2005 12:31 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't follow your logic. Okay, it has to be after ASM #363, but how did you narrow the rest down? And what does Ghost Rider have to do with anything? 

Also, I edited your subject line to make it clear which comic is being discussed. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 03:09 pm    
By Jason Doty

To get the X-Men in around the same time, it has to occur around the end of Jim Lee's run in X-Men. The X-Men team up with Ghost Rider in New Orleans, which occurs before Mobius 1, Spider-Man fights Carnage in ASM 363 and then appears in Morbius 1. Since Spider-Man and Ghost Rider appear in Morbius 1, it seemed like a logical place. The X-Men I placed between where the X-Men travel to Mojo World and the New Orleans mission. It works nice for all of the characters involved and all the issues are in 1992. How's that?

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Thread 61

Posted: 13 May 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: NFL Pro Action vol.1 #1 and vol.2 #2 (comic inserts)
By Jason Doty

Pro Action Magazine vol.I no.1 ,1994 
(Includes comic size paper insert, with cover title Uncanny X-Men no.1, 12 pgs.) 

Story: My Enemy--My Friend! 

Wolverine, Cyclops, and Jean Grey are practicing in the Danger Room. Wolverine is confronted with a hologram of Howie Long the Defensive Lineman of the L.A Raiders. They tussle and the simulation ends. Wolverine fails the exercise because he could not defeat his opponent without resortin to lethal force. Reading in the paper that many humans have been abducted from the subway in NYC, he sends Wolverine, Cyclops, and Jean Grey to investigate, suspecting Morlock activity. The three go to the subway undercover and sure enough the Morlocks abduct them and the other passengers. Callisto explains who she is and her plan to use her captives as slaves to collapse the Citicorp Building because it is a center for commerse and a NY landmark. She then says that she will send an emmisary to the surface and explain that this will continue untill the Morlocks are treated equal in society. The Three X-Men spring into action taking out many Morlocks and Wolverine manages to capture Callisto. The remaining Morlocks surround the humans and Callisto says she will kill them unless a member of the X-Men fights a Morlock of her chosing in personal combat to the death. Wolverine volunteers and is forced to fight a reluctent "Hulk" looking mutant named Arruk. Wolverine defeats him but refuses to kill him. Callisto seeing that the most violent X-Man shows mercy has a change of heart. One of the humans even volunteers to stay and build a bridge between the Morlocks and the surface world. The X-Men leave. 

Characters 

Cyclops 
Jean Grey 
Wolverine 
Professor X 
Jubilee 
Storm 
Gambit 
Rogue 
Callisto 
Arruk 
John Hamilton 
vast Morlocks and human prisoners 

This is a tough one to call, There is a Morlock that looks suspitously like Sunder and I can't remember if Callisto had returned to the Morlocks at this time. All the X-Men are in their Jim Lee era garb. Sunder could be written off as an unamed Morlock because he never speaks or is named. 

Pro Action Magazine vol.II no.2, 1994 
(Includes a comic size insert, with cover title X-Men no.2, 16 pgs.) 

Story: The Hunt 
Various X-Men battle holografic version of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. 
(X-Men: Banshee, Storm, Rogue, Gambit vs. Sauron, Blob. Pyro, and Toad). The simulation ends and Professor X and Cyclops review their performance. Rogue was freaked out by Sauron and Gambit gives her a hard time. Later, Rogue travels to the Savageland to confront Sauron. Gambit discovers this and follows. When he arrives she is already battling Sauron and he decides to intervine. Sauron tries to escape. Rogue explains why she came and then the two square off with Sauron and a T-Rex. Then head home. 

All the characters are in their Jim Lee era costumes. It appears that it could fit into continuity. 

Characters 
Banshee 
Rogue 
Storm 
Gambit 
Cyclops 
Professor X 
Sauron 

Any feed back would be appreciated.

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Posted: 15 May 2005 12:01 am    
By jephyork
Director

Re: NFL Pro Action #1... 

I have this comic, and had honestly never thought about its canonicity until you brought it up. But I really don't think it's canon. Your suspicions about Callisto are right on the money -- she wasn't around during this era. Between UX #264-291 Callisto had been re-shaped into a beautful woman by Masque, and was living on the surface. In #291 she was returned to her former look (which she has in this issue), but never reclaimed control of the Morlocks -- and was sent off to another dimension with Mikahil Rasputin at the end of #293. By the time she returned, in UX #325, Wolverine had lost his metal claws (which he has in this issue). 

You could try wedging it somewhere between pages of UX #291-293, I suppose, but all the dialogue in the issue reads as if this is the X-Men's first meeting with Callisto. Also, the long-established plot point that, by technicality, Storm leads the Morlocks is completely overlooked -- Storm doesn't even accompany the X-Men to deal with the Morlock threat. 

I'd say this fits into cartoon continuity -- and at a guess, so does the second one. Why would Rogue be afraid to fight Sauron? Hasn't she done that before, in Wolverine v2 #69-71? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 12:54 am    
By Jason Doty

I also think the dialog is off, but the story dosn't act as if it is the first time they met Callisto. Professor X clearly states that he believes it is Morlock activity and when Callisto explains who she is she believes she is just talking to a bunch of humans. Also, the comic was from 1994 and I believe the 1994 issues ranged from UX 308-319 and X 28-39, though I could be wrong. I have'nt had a chance to look for placement, but when I read the issues I always expect them to be dumbed down for a more general audience. I think your idea about this being part of the cartoon universe is probally right but I want to take a closer look before we make a desition.

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Posted: 15 May 2005 11:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

Dialogue and publication dates aside, there's no way Callisto is free to appear here. Again: 

Before UX #281 the X-Men were in the wrong costumes and had the wrong team lineup for this issue. 

From UX #264-291 Callisto had two good eyes, was beautiful and was living on the surface -- and Masque led the Morlocks. 

Over the course of UX #291-293, Callisto is returned to her former look, but there's no story breaks for this comic to appear -- the events of #291-293 occur over the course of one night, and end with Callisto (and most of the Morlocks) being swept away to another dimension. 

Callisto returns in X #44 and UX #325, but by then Wolverine has bone claws. 

By the time Wolverine gets his metal claws back, it's "the Twelve" -- which ends with Cyclops' disappearance. By the time Cyclops returns, the team's costumes have changed out of the Jim Lee era. 

So there's no place for a comic featuring Callisto leading the Morlocks, Wolverine with metal claws and the X-Men in their Jim Lee outfits. 


Other things wrong with this issue: 

- Anna Lee is alive, using her powers on the train conductor -- and she died back in the Morlock Massacre. 

- After Prof. X announces Morlock activity, Rogue asks "how we gonna find 'em?", as if the X-Men have never been to the Morlock tunnels before. 

- since when have the Morlocks wanted to attack the surface world's economy? 

- Cerebro can't locate the Morlocks via their mutant signatures -- Prof. X has to program it to guess the probability of their next attack based on their previous ones. 

The fact that the X-Men's lineup here is the same as the cartoon lineup in 1994 solidifies it for me. This story can't fit into canon. 


Now, I actually made a mistake in my comments about NFL Pro Action v2 #2 ... it's possible that Rogue's battle with Sauron in W2 #69-71 occurs *after* the issue ... I was thinking that the W2 issues were before the Jim Lee era, but they're not. So NFL PA v2 #2 *could* potentially be canon... 

However, the fact that NFL PA v1 #1 was set in cartoon continuity worries me ... is the *whole series* of NFL PA inserts non-canon? I'd rather not take it on an issue-by-issue basis -- I'd rather rule the whole series one way or the other. 

There were two volumes of NFL PA -- vol. 1 only had one giveaway comic, the Morlock one. Vol. 2 had a series of three giveaway comics -- two Spider-Man issues and the one X-Men issue you outlined above. 

I'm prepared to assume that, since they're different volumes, vol.2 *could* be canon even though vol.1 was not -- but ALL THREE v2 comics have to pass the canonicity test. Both Spideys AND the X-Men comic. 

If anyone has the Spider-Man comics from NFL Pro Action v2 #1 and 3, and wants to give us a write-up for them, I'd appreciate it. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 03:28 pm    
By Jason Doty

I'm in complete agreement that the first Pro Action X-Men comic is not in 616 continuity and also agree that the second should be rulled out because it was clearly meant to be the next issue in that series. So, the score so far is one out of three. I'll start digging out some more tonight.

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Posted: 15 May 2005 06:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I never said that v2 #2 should be automatically ruled out. It wasn't "clearly meant to be the next issue in the X-Men series" -- I'm assuming it was labelled #2 since it came in NFL PA v2 #2. I'm assuming the Spider-Man comics from #1 and #3 were labelled #1 and #3, as well. 

I was saying that -- even though NFL PA vol. 1 is non-canon -- we should judge NFL PA vol. 2 on its own merits, as a series. 

So we can't decide if #2 is canon or not until we take a look at the Spidey comics from #1 and #3. 

-Jeph!

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Thread  62

Posted: 15 May 2005 04:26 pm    Post subject: X-Men Siege and Destroy (Drakes Cakes Mini Comic part 5)
By Jason Doty

Wolverine: The Nuke Hunters Mini Comic, 1994 (Part 4) 
This is part four of a story that was given away with Drakes Cakes, It is a paper mini-comic that is 14 pgs. 

Story: The Nuke Hunters 
While on vacation in Canada, Wolverine comes across a military base he does not recognize with four shady characters approaching. He gets into costume to investigate. The four individuals are Kree and have come to steal the nukes from this joint American/Canadian/Soviet Union decomisson center. They succesfully take out the guards and break in. 
On a spaceship in the Shi'ar Empire Lilandra gets word of rebels on Hala. 
Back on Earth the aliens are having the station personell load up their stolen merchendice. Wolverine shows up and busts their heads. After the last one falls he figures that he can return to vacationing. Just then the X-Men show and explain that Professor X was contacted by Lilandra and they are needed. They depart into space to help. 

Characters: 
Wolverine 
Tallun 
Skulker 
Garrote 
Hunter 
1 guard 
6 scientists 
Lilandra 
many Shi'ar including an advisor 
Professor X-BTS 
Cyclops 
Archangel 
Iceman 
Gambit 
Jubilee 

X-Men: Siege and Destroy Mini Comic, 1994 (part 5) 


This is the fifth part of a story that was given away with Drakes Cakes, It is a paper mini-comic that is 14 pgs. 

Story: Siege and Destroy! 
The planet Hala is under siege by a band of revolutionaries and criminals. Many of these forces have been rounded up. A few Upsurpers barricade themselves in the main palace, when help arrives. Lilandra greets the X-Men (Cyclops, Iceman, Archangel, Wolverine, Gambit, Jubilee) and the Silver Surfer. Admiral Galen-Kor and his followers are arguing over weapons he promised them. Just then the X-Men and the Silver Surfer bust in and take them down. Lilandra decides to hold a banquet for them. 

Chronological clues: 
(Lilandra is in charge of the Kree homeworld) 
(All X-Men appear in their Jim Lee era uniforms) 
(Wolverine has bone claws) 

Characters: 
Lilandra 
Cyclops 
Iceman 
Archangel 
Wolverine 
Gambit 
Jubilee 
Silver Surfer 
Admiral Galen-Kor 
Thunder 
Quarrel 
Falkon 
several Kree rebels 
several Shi'ar troops

Last edited by Jason Doty on 06 Jun 2005 12:59 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 15 May 2005 06:20 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Can you analyze the series as a whole, in order? I know the title of the comic changes with every issue, but it's a 5-part series. It seems a little odd to start with part 5. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 07:55 pm    
By Jason Doty

I have around 3000 comics, I started from the X box, since many of the giveaways are titled X-Men:---, When I post the rest when I get to them I'll post them here.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2005 10:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm asking you to go find the rest, pull them out and analyze them as a unit, though. Rather than part 5, then part 4, then part 2, etc... 

-Jeph!

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Thread 63

Posted: 15 May 2005 05:44 pm    Post subject: X-Men: The Coming of Triplkill no.1
By Jason Doty

X-Men: The Coming of Triplkill (given away through Tony's Pizza in 1994) 

Story: The Coming of Triplkill 
The X-Men and Ka-zar and Zabu face off against Mr. Sinister in the Savageland and three tenagers who are foretold to join together as the horrible threat of Triplkill. The story then flashbacks to how the X-Men found theirselves in this situation. Three weeks earlier mutants have begun disappearing around the world. Professor X was contacted earlier in the day and explains that Mr. Sinister and the Nasty Boys are behind the abductions. Professor X sends the X-Men to deal with the problem. Cyclops, Iceman, and Beast head to Genosha looking for clues. These X-Men find that Hairbag is involved. Just then they are attacked by Magistrates. After defeating them they stow aboard a mutant transport. In Australia, Banshee, Jean Grey and Jubilee confront Jabberjaw and Ramrod. After defeating them Jean scans them and finds that Mr. Sinister has been using Gateway to transport some of the mutant abductees. They find Gateway and ask him to send them where the mutants have gone. In Madipoor Wolverine and Storm speak with Tyger Tyger about a scroll that is missing that deals with a prophesty about mutants. They then speak with a monk who tells them about it. They are attacked by Gorgeus George whom they defeat. All the X-Men get back together and head to the Savageland where they plan to face Sinister. Sinister and the Nasty Boys flee and the X-Men must deal with Triplkill. Relizing brute force is not the answer the X-Men are able to use a peacfull solution by talking to the merged boys. Sinister had orchastrated this because the prophecy had to due with Cyclops. 

Characters: 
Mr. Sinister 
Cyclops 
Storm 
Wolverine 
Jubilee 
Banshee 
Beast 
Iceman 
Jean Grey 
Michael T. Slate-NBR-TV Genosha 
Holly Hartz-INN Madipoor 
Jake Waffel-VTR-TV Australia 
Trish Tilby-WARC New York 
Professor X 
Nick Fury-BTS 
Genoshan Magistrates 
Hairbag 
Slab 
Unnamed Genoshan Mutants 
Ruckus 
Ramrod 
Gateway 
Tyger Tyger 
Unnamed monk 
Gorgeous George 
Ka-zar 
Zabu 
Three mutants that become Triplkill, one named Eddie 

Chronilogical clues 
(X-Men in Jim Lee era costumes) 
(Wolverine has bone claws) 
(Tyger Tyger is head of Madipoor)

Last edited by Jason Doty on 16 May 2005 01:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 15 May 2005 06:25 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Is this the comic also known as "Missing Mutant Mystery"? This is one of the last great holdouts for me... 

By the way, who the heck is Jabberjaw? I've never heard of him and he's not in the MCP. Is he a new character? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 07:42 pm    
By Jason Doty

Yes Jeph it is the same comic. Send me what you don't have and we'll do what we talked about. Jaberjaw is one of the Nasty Boys with similar powers to Banshee.

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Posted: 15 May 2005 10:20 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Do you mean Ruckus? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 May 2005 01:18 pm    
By Jason Doty

Yes it is Ruckus, Banshee refered to him as Jaberjaw. Sorry about that. I'll edit the post.

			*	*	*

Thread 64

Posted: 16 May 2005 02:33 pm    Post subject: X-Men: Time Gliders no.1-4 (Hardee's Mini Comics)
By Jason Doty

X-Men: Time Gliders no.1 (paper mini comic given away in Hardee's Kids Meals, 16 pgs., 1995) 

Story: The Time Gliders: Part I 
The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (Commando, Blob, Phantazia, and Avalanche) are spying on the X-Men from Jonathan Chambers house in Key West, who is beter known as Empyrean. The X-Men (Wolverine, Storm, Cyclops, and Rogue) are battling Phalanx holograms in the Danger Room. The X-Men are summoned to Beast's lab by Professor X. Beast has created a time machine that he believes will help him in finding a cure for the Legacy Virus. Viewing this, Empyrean desides that he wants the device to travel back in time to spread the disease so he can have more victems to feed apon. He dupes the Brotherhood into stealing it for him. That night Commando breaks into the X-Men's Mansion and is caught by Cyclops. He manages to steal the machine and hold the other X-Men at bay and then is teleported away. The X-Men decide to give pursuit. 

Characters 
Empyrean 
Blob 
Phantazia 
Avalanche 
Commando 
Cyclops 
Storm 
Wolverine 
Beast 
Rogue 
Professor X 

X-Men: Time Gliders no.2 (paper mini comic given away in Hardee's Kids Meals, 16 pgs., 1995) 

Story: The Time Gliders: Part II 
The X-Men travel to Empyrean Island. Once there the X-Men split up and Wolverine ends up battling and defeating the Blob. At the X-Mansion, Beast is working on getting another "Time Glider" running before the one that the Brotherhood stole. At the same time Empyrean and Commando are trying to figure out how to operate the "Time Glider" 

Characters 
Empyrean 
Blob 
Phantazia 
Commando 
Avalanche 
Storm 
Beast 
Rogue 
Cyclops 
Wolverine 
Professor X-BTS 

X-Men: Time Gliders no.3 (paper mini comic given away in Hardee's Kids Meals, 16 pgs., 1995) 

Story: The Time Gliders: Part III 
On another part of the island Rogue battles and defeats Avalanche. Empyrean and Commando figure out how to opperate the stolen Time Glider and Beast also creates and opperates a new one. 

Characters 
Empyrean 
Rogue 
Avalanche 
Commando 
Beast 
Professor X 
Wolverine 
Storm 
Cyclops 
Blob-BTS 
Phantazia-BTS 

X-Men: Time Gliders no.4 (paper mini comic given away in Hardee's Kids Meals, 16 pgs., 1995) 

Story: The Time Gliders: Part IV 
Phantazia battles Storm and a recovered Blob battles Cyclops, rogue, and Cyclops, both are defeated. Empyrean tells Commando to test the glider, but just then Beast shows up on his and defeats Commando. In the confusion of the fight, Empyrean jumps aboard the time glider and leaves through time. Beast electronically retrieves the Glider, but Empyrean is not on it, he is lost in time. The X-Men head back to the mansion and tell Professor x what has happened. In the past Empyrean is about to be eaten by a T-Rex. 

Characters 
Storm 
Phantazia 
Cyclops 
Wolverine 
Rogue 
Blob 
Empyrean 
Commando 
Beast 
Professor X 
Avalanch-BTS 

Chronilogical clues 
(All X-Men in Jim Lee era uniforms) 
(Wolverine has bone claws) 
(Commando is cybernetically enhanced) 
(Brotherhood is staying with Empyrean) 
(X-Men know about the Phalanx)

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Thread 65

Posted: 15 May 2005 04:57 pm    Post subject: X-Men and Captain Universe: Sleeping Giants no.1
By Jason Doty

X-Men and Captain Universe: Sleeping Giants no.1, 1994 

Story: Sleeping-Giants 
While I'm taking a bus home, a woman begins to mutate into a tentical having monster and starts attacking the passangers. Before I can exit the bus I'm transformed into Captain Universe and begin to fight the creature. Luckully for me the X-Men arrive (Iceman, Wolverine, Rogue, Gambit, Jubilee) and begin fighting this mutated woman, but she gets away due to my bungaling efforts. Because I got in their way, they chastize me and tell me to stay out of their way. They are recalled by Professor X to the X-Mansion who explaines that many other people have mutated and is spreading like a virus. When another individual is mutated at a mall the X-Men show up to stop him, hearing the comotion as Captain Universe I also converge on the scene. As the X-Men battle mutated individuals, I figure out the problem and save the day. After a timely departure I revert back to my normal self. 

Chronological clues: 
(X-Men in Jim Lee era costumes) 
(Wolverine has bone claws) 
(Hot summer afternoon in NYC, people in shorts and such) 

Characters: 
Jason Doty ( and yes I would like to be the first contributor to make it into the MCP) 
Captain Universe Enigma Force 
Iceman 
Wolverine 
Rogue 
Gambit 
Jubilee 
Professor X 
Roger Fieldston

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Posted: 15 May 2005 06:22 pm    
By jephyork
Director

...Okay, I'm going to assume that you DO know that every single copy of this comic has a different person'a name as Captain Universe. We can't put "Jason Doty" into the MCP. 

In fact, since every single copy of this comic is different -- and it even comes in two versions, "male" and "female" -- I'd say we can pretty quickly disregard it as automatically non-canon. There's no single "correct" version of the story. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 07:50 pm    
By Jason Doty

Yes I know, but it was worth a try! As far as being canon or not, I think it could be worth a try. All of the dialog is the same except where your name appears. Since Captain Universe can be anyone the story could be canon no mater who Captain Universe is. It's just a mater of who owns this issue. If you own it more than likely you had it personlized. It would be of value to see where it fits chronologically. So even though I won't make it the Captain Universe character can.

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Posted: 15 May 2005 10:28 pm    
By jephyork
Director

It's not just the different name in every comic -- in half the versions of the book, the character is female! 

And doesn't the issue take place in a different town in every copy, depending on where the kid ordering it lived? 

Sorry, but if no two copies of the book tell exactly the same story, I don't see that it can be treated as "real". 

I was thinking of ordering it and putting my name as "you" and my address as "your town", just for a hoot. But I didn't ... c'est la vie! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 May 2005 01:12 pm    
By Jason Doty

Yes, there are two versions of the book with exactly the same story. They either drew in the female or the male. What I'm saying is the story takes place exactly the same in both. As far as a different town, It is only mentioned once, it is where you are visiting NYC from. 

This comic can be put into continuity. Captain Universe gets the appearance, as well as every one else except for the person that personalized the comic. Just out of curiosity does anyone else own this comic.

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Posted: 16 May 2005 01:15 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Sorry, Jeph, but I'm with Jason on this. This is a story which exists with two different sets of artwork and as many different versions of the dialogue as there are copies in existence. While any one might conceivably be canon if it existed in isolation, they can't ALL be, because they portray several thousand mutually exclusive versions of the same story! And since there's no rational basis for choosing one over the others, the only logical conclusion is to dismiss it as non-canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 May 2005 01:27 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Sorry, Jeph, but I'm with Jason on this. 
<<<

Just speculating here, but did you mean, "Sorry, Jason, but I'm with Jeph on this"?  


watching: both sides

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Posted: 16 May 2005 01:29 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul I believe you meant to say you were with Jeph! and not me on this one. 

Captain Universe can be male or female, who Captain Universe is dos'nt mater. I still believe both stories are exactly the same. Does anyone have a copy of the female version? As far as the dialog goes, thay just insert your name in a word balloon at the appropriate time, all the rest of the dialog is the same. 

This is one of those rare cases where I doubt we'll see this again and there is no precedent. Though this comic may well not be canon, I think we should debate this one further.

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Posted: 16 May 2005 01:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Captain Universe gets the appearance, as well as... 
<<<

Not quite. Captain Universe is more a concept, than a character. 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 16 May 2005 02:20 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Paul I believe you meant to say you were with Jeph! and not me on this one. 
<<<

Uh... very possibly.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 May 2005 02:37 pm    
By rhod

If there's nothing to indicate non-canonicity in any of the other characters appearances, I don't see why this can't be canon. I think it would necessitate a radical overhaul of Captain Universe's listing though, requiring a mass of links eg.: 

Captain Universe V see Spider-man 

Cptain Universe VI see Dr Sloan (or whoever) 

Captain Universe IX 
Sleeping Giants 1 

etc.... could get very messy 

			*	*	*

Thread 66

Posted: 15 May 2005 12:23 pm    Post subject: New Avengers / Fantastic Four military giveaway
By jephyork
Director

"The New Avengers guest starring the Fantastic Four" 

(yes, that's the title both on the cover and in the indicia  I would recommend "NA/FF" as the MCP abbreviation, except it looks like we're going with "A4" as the "New Avengers" abbreviation  so, sigh, "A4/FF" it is. 

Synopsis: 

The New Avengers and the Fantastic Four recover a Kree ship discovered in Louisiana by the US military. It's been there for thousands of years, and they bring it back to Avengers Tower. When they crack it open, Kree soldiers are revived from suspended animation and attack them. The Kree think that the heroes are Skrulls, until Iron Man uses a translation program to explain that the Kree-Skrull war ended while they were in suspended animation. The Kree leave, threatening to one day add Earth to the Kree empire. 

Appearances: 

Iron Man 
Captain America 
Luke Cage 
Spider-Woman 
Wolverine 
Spider-Man 
the Sentry 
Mr. Fantastic 
the Invisible Woman 
the Human Torch II 
the Thing 

SHIELD, BTS (The military called SHIELD, who called in the FF and the New Avengers  but no indication was given of who's in charge at SHIELD.) 

seven US soldiers, one of whom claimed to have been "at the battle of Red Zone" with Iron Man. (Did any black soldiers get named in that Avengers story arc? If so, we could potentially identify this guy.) 

twelve ancient Kree soldiers 


Chronology clues: 

Stark Tower is now called "Avengers Tower". 

The Sentry is a member of the team, and he has short hair. He mentions "having a thing with his wife in 45 minutes", so I'm guessing that this arc occurs after the upcoming A4 #7-9, which is supposed to dig into the Sentry's past  and will probably end with the revelation that he was framed for his wife's death (as referenced in A4 #1), and that she's alive. 

Also, nobody remembers the Sentry in this issue  he even says "I'm new" to the Thing, one of his oldest friends  so hopefully A4 #7-9 won't end with everyone remembering him. (Which, story-wise, is also for the best, because then the Void will return. Ooooh.) 

In terms of the FF, the only chronology clue we get is that Sue Richards claims they couldn't take the craft to their HQ because "our place is a mess". It could be trashed from some battle, or it could be Sue Richards making a joke. 

I don't know enough about the minute variations of the FF's costumes to be able to tell you much about them  but they've got thick black belts, black necks, gloves and boots, light blue 4s on white with light blue circles, and an occasionally-appearing thin line up the front of the outfit. I want to say these look like Mike Weiringo's versions, but what do I know? 

Similarly, I can't tell if this is exactly Iron Man's armor from current A4 issues  but it looks like it to me. 

By the way, Wolvie's costume here has the gold diamonds on the legs  only otherwise seen in W2 #20-27 and GAM4 #5-6. 


Notes: 

Once again Bendis can't tell time. He has Mr. Fantastic conjecture that the spacecraft has been downed since "between 412 and 456 B.C.E.", making it just under 2500 years old. Yet, later in the issue, Bendis has Mr. Fantastic say that there's "no one under the age of five million" inside the craft. Wha? 

We're supposed to take ANY of Bendis' temporal references seriously after THAT? Clearly the guy's just making things up as he goes along. 


Temporal references: 

Hot and dark (overcast?) in the Louisiana Bayou. Blue skies in NYC. Two civilians walk outside in a suit jacket and what looks to be a light jacket. 

At a guess, I'd say the scenes in the bayou (pp.1-3) occur the day before the scenes at Avengers Tower (pp.5-23)  but I've got nothing more than a gut feeling to back that up. It must have taken SOME time to extricate the remainder of the Kree ship from its resting place and transport it to NYC. 

(Page 4, by the way, is a generic splash featuring both teams in a typical action-shot pose with an explanation of who's who. It's not part of the story.) 


Right now, I'd recommend placing this between the upcoming A4 #9-10, and between whatever issues of FF we find end up corresponding to that. So we've got about 5-6 months to wait before we can nail down a definitve placement. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 10:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I would recommend "NA/FF" as the MCP abbreviation, except it looks like we're going with "A4" as the "New Avengers" abbreviation  so, sigh, "A4/FF" it is.  
<<<

Well, not necessarily. "A4" is so named only because it is the fourth Avengers title. "A4" is not shorthand for the New Avengers team, only for the New Avengers comic. That fact has nothing to do with this comic. FWIW, I'm all for "NA/FF."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 May 2005 07:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
"The New Avengers guest starring the Fantastic Four" (yes, that's the title both on the cover and in the indicia  
<<<

Jeph, is this issue #1 or is it unnumbered?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 May 2005 07:02 am    
By jephyork
Director

Unnumbered. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 May 2005 09:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, so I have NA/FF (w/ no number) occurring after A4 10 (the story arc has been extended one issue). The diamond pattern costume on Wolverine bugs me. Although I don't know anything about the placement of GAM4 issues, I do know we've placed W3 20-27 before A4 1, so it looks like Logan is "doing a Warbird" -- switching back and forth between costumes. At least that's how it seems at this point.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 May 2005 10:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So far all we've got on the GAM4 series is that it occurs after X 165.  I haven't read #10 yet, but from what I've heard Rogue doesn't yet have ... certain spoilery power upgrades, so it should also occur before ROGUE3 7 and X 171. 

I wouldn't worry about Wolverine's pants. He's not "switching costumes", he's just being drawn slightly differently by different artists. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 67

Posted: 17 May 2005 11:14 am    Post subject: X-Men Halloween Special Edition no.1
By Jason Doty

X-Men Halloween Special Edition no.1 (paper giveaway around the size of a folded Comic Shop News, 8 pgs., 1993, story includes the cover) 

Story: Whats Wrong With This Picture?! 

Mojo travels to Earth to film the X-Men in their natural habitat. He is bored with their everyday life untill they engage in a Danger Room exercise. Having enough futage he returns home, only to discover that he just filmed his face. It becomes the most popular show and ratings soar. 

Chronological Clues 
(This story should fall just before X 1) 
(All the Jim Lee era X-Men are present but wearing their uniforms just prior to X 1, Storm short hair, Wolverine brown costume, Colossus just belt, X-Factor uniforms for original X-Men) 

Characters 
Mojo 
Major Domo 
Minor Domo 
Three Yes Men 
Spiral 
Storm 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Colossus 
Rogue 
Wolverine 
Professor X 
Iceman 
Jubilee 
Archangel 
Psylocke 
Marvel Girl 
Gambit

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2005 09:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does this story actually occur on Halloween, as suggested by the title? If so it may end up on October 31 of Year 16 (for the calendar-minded out there).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 May 2005 10:01 pm    
By Jason Doty

The story has nothing to due with Haloween itself. It appears to be a hot and sunny day. I think it is a Halloween Special because it was given away at comic shops and possibly been given to kids instead of candy. 

I seem to remember a similar or possibly the same story in M/CP but I can't remember for sure, but I pulled it because it was a giveaway. 

I'm going to try and do one every 2 days or so untill I get them all up. Feel free to ask any questions that the group finds important.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2005 10:18 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yep - this comic is a straight-up reprint of M/CP #89/4. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2005 07:18 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay. Thanks, guys. Since this is a reprint, it's safe to ignore.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 68

Posted: 20 May 2005 07:43 pm    Post subject: Gus Beezer Spider-Man
By ADMINISTRATOR

Oh please, let this be not canon... 


Gus Beezer is a kid who loves Spider-Man. 

Pages 1-9 take place in one afternoon and evening. Gus pretends to be Spider-Man, and daydreams of battles with the Lizard (actually, his sister). As he settles in for bed, his mom reminds him of a family reunion the next day. He's disappointed, because he planned on going to the Spider-Man movie. 

Gus 
Zabu (his...dog?) 
Tillie Beezer (sister) 
Mr. Beezer 
Mrs. Laura Beezer 
Emily Beezer (sister) 


Pages 10-23: At the reunion the next day, Gus meets Peter Parker, attending the reunion with his aunt. Peter says their distant cousins. When Peter finds out Gus is a fan of Spider-Man, he gives Gus a ball of webbing. Later that night, Gus uses the webbing to get revenge on Emily for a practical joke she played on him earlier in the day. 

Gus 
Tillie 
Emily 
Laura 
Mr. Beezer 
Aunt Violet 
Peter Parker 
May Parker-bts 


watching: nancy grace

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Posted: 20 May 2005 08:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Oh please, let this be not canon...  
<<<

Why? Because it reads like an Archie comic or something? Is there anything in this comic that contradicts anything canonical? It doesn't seem that way.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2005 09:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Why? Because it reads like an Archie comic or something? 
<<<

No, because it reads like an issue of Not Brand Ecch. 

I have no problem with Archie. 


watching: law and order: something or other

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2005 01:21 am    
By Jason Doty

If we take Gus Beezer as a series, I think it will be deemed non-canon, because the X-Men one has the X-Men in their Ultimate Universe outfits. If we take them seperatly, they might be canon.

			*	*	*

Thread 69

Posted: 20 May 2005 06:48 pm    Post subject: What If vol.2 #69, 71, 73, 78, and 92
By jephyork
Director

Continuing my sporadic checks of What If issues for snippets of canon material ... I could use a little help on the DD material below, but otherwise I don't think I found any new material this time around. Shame.  

-Jeph! 

---- 

What If? v2 #69 
"What If Stryfe Killed the X-Men" 

The Watcher appears in this issue (presumably between WI2 #68-70). 

This issue diverges sometime before UX #294. 

The major divergence point on this earth is Apocalypses inability to save Prof. X from the techno-organic virus in XF #86  but the Watchers dialogue suggests that this world had already diverged before that point. When recapping the events of the X-Cutioners Song that led to Xaviers death, he says: 

"In this reality, as on Earth-Prime, it all began the same way." 
[recap] 
"The similarities between Earth Prime and this reality end here." 

This strongly implies to me that this world was *already* an alternate earth, and events there happened to take a similar course as Earth-616  up until Xaviers death. 

Therefore, we dont need to examine the recap scenes on pp.2-3 for any new material  because this earth diverged before any of the scenes we see. 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

---- 

What If? v2 #71 
"What If the Gamma Bomb Spawned a Thousand Hulks?" 

The Watcher appears (presumably between WI2 #70-72). 

This issue diverges in 1944, when Nazi Fifth Columnists infiltrate the Manhattan Project. They are uncovered by Captain America, and, when cornered, torch the Project. 

I doubt this is a reference to a real story, but  does anyone know if Cap ever fought any Fifth Columnists who were infiltrating the Manhattan Project in 1944? 

If so, the only panels of interest would be the lower half of p.1 (Cap charging foward with soldiers, a Gamma bomb looming behind them  possibly symbolic), p.2 panel 2 (Cap punching several people at once, who go flying), and p.2 panel 3 (the Nazi spies begin to set the Project on fire  presumably this panel is after the divergence). Even if there is an Earth-616 story that fits the scenario here, I doubt these panels add any new information to it. 

However, if anyone wants to surprise me with a story where Cap fights Nazis undercover in the Manhattan Project but doesnt throw a punch on-panel, Id be happy to suggest that WI2 #71 p.2 panel 2 is new material. 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

---- 

What If? v2 #73 
"What If the Kingpin Owned Daredevil" 

The Watcher does not appear. 

This issue diverges when, after the Kingpin comes across Jack Murdocks corpse, he takes young Matthew under his wing. 


Im not sure if this issue lines up with events seen in regular DD continuity, or "Man Without Fear" continuity  or both. In this issue, Matt Murdock is a boy (attending P.S. 159) when his father is killed, and has already begun to train with Stick. 

Later in the issue, when the narration highlights the differences between this world and what could have been, its mentioned that Matt never knocked a prostitute named Syndy out of a window while carrying out his vendetta against the Fixer and his men. At first glance this seems like a clear "MWF" reference  but I know that, in regular continuity, Matt knocks the girl who would be Typhoid Mary out of a window in a FB in DD/DP 97. Could this "Syndy" have been an assumed name Mary Walker was using at the time? (Heck, is "Mary Walker" even Typhoids real name, or just another persona?) Could this be a reference to the Earth-616 version of events? 

Another difference highlighted is that, since Matt never becomes Elektras lover, he never helps her double-team her fathers kidnappers, and Elektras father is not accidentally killed. Did Elektras father die this way in regular DD continuity, or "MWF" continuity? 

Also, the issue gives Jack Murdocks killers as "Gillian, McHale, Angelo, Slade and Marcello", and the Fixer himself  who personally pulled the trigger. Does this correspond to Earth-616 continuity? "MWF" continuity? Or neither  could this be the point of divergence? 


Here are the scenes that might be canon: 

1p1-4  Jack Murdock is killed. Do the details below match up to anything weve seen before? 

Panel 1  Jack is beaten by four men in the rain while the Fixer watches, telling him he should have taken the dive. 
Panel 2  the Fixer puts a gun in Jacks bruised and toothless mouth. 
Panel 3  as the gunshot echoes down the alley, the men joke and walk away. 
Panel 4  Jacks body lies propped up against an alley wall. 

1p5-3p2  the Kingpin and the Arranger view Jacks body in an alley. Its probable that this is the point of divergence, but is it possible that this happened in the real MU as well, and the point of divergence is what the Kingpin decided to do about the body he found? 

3p3  the Kingpin decides to contact young Matt Murdock. The point of divergence must be here or earlier  its doubtful that, in the real MU, the Kingpin extended an offer to young Matthew that he refused. 

8p5  in a quick cutaway to "what could have been", Syndy goes flying out the window. 

15p2  in another cutaway, Nelson and Murdock stand proudly outside the door to their new office. 

15p5-6  in another cutaway, Elektra and Matt attack the kidnappers, and Mr. Natchios is accidentally killed by police: 

Panel 5  Elektra, tied to a chair, kicks out at a kidnapper while a masked Matt hits another in the face. 
Panel 6  Mr. Natchios, hands still tied, is shot through the window. 

16p3-5  in the final cutaway, Karen Page spies a want ad for Nelson & Murdock  eventually leading her down a sad path that culminates in performing pornography: 

Panel 3  "Fresh to the big city", Karen scans the paper in a diner. 
Panel 4  the want ad itself: "Apply to Nelson & Murdock, Attorneys at Law." 
Panel 5  Karen, bruised and unhappy, poses naked in a bed with a teddy bear for a movie titled "Bad Girl". 

If we decide that this issue splits off from regular DD continuity, rather than "MWF", then these scenes and cutaways should all be analyzed for possible new material. Hopefully the details I provided above about each panel should make that a fairly easy task. 

Earth-616 temporal references: Jack Murdock is killed on a rainy night during the school year. Syndy is knocked out a window on what appears to be a clear day, but might (see DD/DP 97-FB) be a miscolored night. 

---- 

What If? v2 #78 
"What If the New Fantastic Four Had Remained a Team?" 

The Watcher does not appear. 

This issue diverges from FF #349 p.21 panel 5, when Reed Richards doesnt disarm DeLila the Skrull, and she kills the FF with her disruptor. 

P.2 contains some flashback material to the FFs death, but in the very first panel of the FB, Reed is shown stretching towards DeLila as she takes aim  and in FF #349, the very first thing he does upon regaining his stretching power is to covertly disarm her. Therefore the entire FB occurs after the point of divergence, and there's no need to analyze it for new material. 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

---- 

What If? v2 #92 
"What If starring Cannonballs Little Brother Josh  And His Pet Sentinel!" 

The Watcher does not appear. 

Theres no clear point of divergence in this story. Heck, aside from the fact that its an issue of "What If", I dont see any real reason that this story couldnt take place in the Marvel Universe! No characters have any noticeable differences from their MU counterparts, and everything is put back to normal at the end of the story. 

That said  I dont know that much about the Guthrie family. Its possible that the family lineup in this issue is incompatible with what weve seen before, giving us a divergence point of the childrens births, several years ago  but its also possible that we can use the information shown here to draw new conclusions about the Earth-616 Guthries. 

In this story, the Guthries consist of: 

Mrs. Guthrie 
Sam 
Paige 
Joshua, in high-school, "the middle kid", no mutant powers (yet) 
Joelle, teenage 
a boy with orange hair and glasses, teenage or pre-teen 
"the twins" (boy and girl), age 5-ish 

Does this match, or add to, what we already know? Did Mr. Guthrie die recently enough to be able to have fathered a set of twins young enough to still be scrawling crayon drawings on the walls and talking in broken kid-english (like "he a flyin superhero!"), during the time Cannonball is with the X-Men (UX #322-359)? 

Earth-616 temporal references: Cannonballs birthday occurs two weeks after scenes occurring during football season (or, football practice) in the school year.

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Posted: 20 May 2005 09:31 pm    
By Enda80

(Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos#24) - Hitler directed a Bundist operation to steal plans and materials from the Manhattan Project. When he learned that the Howlers had run across the operation--and been captured--he demanded that they be shot immediately. The Bundists tried to carry out his orders, but the Howlers broke free and foiled the operation. 

It was mentioned in the Steel Samuria or Samurai Steel issue of Iron Man that Howard Stark worked on the Manhattan Project, which was supported by Cap Annual#9/2. Other than that, no Manhattan Project stories spring to mind. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hitlerad.htm 

Also, check out this google search. 

"Another difference highlighted is that, since Matt never becomes Elektras lover, he never helps her double-team her fathers kidnappers, and Elektras father is not accidentally killed. Did Elektras father die this way in regular DD continuity, or "MWF" continuity?" 
It was shown back in Miller's first run in the 1980's....it was not shown at all in the Man Without Fear. 


"Also, the issue gives Jack Murdocks killers as "Gillian, McHale, Angelo, Slade and Marcello", and the Fixer himself  who personally pulled the trigger. Does this correspond to Earth-616 continuity? "MWF" continuity? Or neither  could this be the point of divergence?" 
Slade definetly existed on Earth-616, per the Marvel Saga. Cannot confirm the rest offhand. 


Here are the scenes that might be canon: 

1p1-4  Jack Murdock is killed. Do the details below match up to anything weve seen before? 
Definetly based on Man Without Fear. 

1p5-3p2  the Kingpin and the Arranger view Jacks body in an alley. Its probable that this is the point of divergence, but is it possible that this happened in the real MU as well, and the point of divergence is what the Kingpin decided to do about the body he found? 
Hmm. Now, that would be interesting to try to figure out the Kingpin's whereabouts in the time before Murdock became DD or the time that the FF started. Offhand, some clues: 

Amazing Spider-Man#-1: featured him as underling who slew his mob boss to come to power (in a scene directly taken from the MWF!) 

the recent Bront storyline in Daredevil seems to dispute this 

this may not be pre-FF#1, but in Punisher Big Nothing, an employee of Fisk's company was evacuated during the wartime fb 

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/kinkiz.htm 

(Daredevil I#300(fb), Daredevil II#13(fb), DD II#30(fb2), Web of Spider-Man#86(fb), DD II#10(ffb), 52(fb), Amazing Spider-Man minus 1, DD339-342(fb) Daredevil: Man without Fear#3-5, Amazing Fantasy#17, Sentry/Spider-Man(fb2), 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/k.htm#KINGPIN 

I must say, though, that WI II#73 was clearly based on the Man Without Fear.

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Posted: 20 May 2005 09:56 pm    
By Dhall

Yes, all of those Guthrie's exist in the 616 universe...don't make me look up their names right now, but yes they do all exist....

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Posted: 21 May 2005 09:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks, DHall. 

Now, Enda... 

Quote: 
>>>
I must say, though, that WI II#73 was clearly based on the Man Without Fear. 
<<<

Although the Elektra and Karen Page bits happened in regular DD continuity, right? And so did the girl-pushed-out-window scene. You say Jack Murdock's killing is based on MWF, but how does it differ from regular DD continuity? Is it irreconcilable? If so, could that be the point of divergence? 

Right now it seems that the issue has more in common with the main MU than the MWF story. Are there more MWF details that I'm overlooking? 

I'm particularly intersted in Stick's appearance. In the regular MU, had young Matt started training with Stick before his father's death? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 May 2005 06:23 pm
By Enda80

The death of Jack Murdock was shown in DD#1 and later in a Miller drawn, McKenzie written story, DD#168. He was shot from behind by Slade. 

By the way, a word on continuity differences between MWF and regular DD continuity 

MAn without Fear is not canon since it contradicts too much of established DD trivia. It contradicts where he went to study law. Aside from that, Elektra's characterization is hopelessly off. 


More particularly 

1. The account of the Fixer's death is quite different, as is the account of the death of Jack Murdock. 

2. Murdock's academic time is presently incorrectly. Miller had earlier contradicted Daredevil#1 in his DD#168, but MWF makes it worse. Matt goes to Columbia for pre-law in both (clash with DD#1), then goes onto Harvard Law, and then works for a big firm in Boston. He does not meet up with Foggy again for years. This wipes out his time at State College, his graduating with Foggy, and his opening up his law firm soon after with Foggy. 

3. Matt's age relative to when his father dies varies from past versions. Most siginficantly, Matt does not wear his yellow costume for his attack on the Fixer (not Norbert Ebersol) but wears a bag over his head. 
Also, Marvel Saga located Matt's battle with the Fixer as taking place in the modern era when he had grown up and become a lawyer, *not* when he was a boy. In any event, in DD#1, DD wore his yellow costume when dealing with the Fixer. 

Miller seems to have intended MWF as part of a movie treatment for Daredevil. Sadly, when he decided to adapt this story to the four color page, he did not make any effort to reconcile to established continuity. 

Do a search for at groups.google for "Man Without Fear" AND Canon for more input.

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Posted: 21 May 2005 11:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, that ... sort of helped. Let me get specific here with my questions: 

In regular DD continuity, how old was Matt when his father died? 

In regular DD continuity, had he begun training with Stick as a boy? 

You've told me that Jack Murdock's death in this issue contradicts DD continuity -- so, the manner of his death could be considered the divergence point. Unless the answers to the questions above don't reconcile with what we know of the Marvel Universe... 

What I'm angling in on is, I think those "what could have been" Karen Page scenes are new material. And to include them, I'm trying to show that this issue branched off the mainstream MU instead of the "MWF" story. I understand that the issue is incorporating elements of both, but so far I'm seeing more references that line up with the MU version than the MWF version. The answers to the questions above, however, could swing the balance the other way. We'll see, I guess. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 May 2005 07:38 am    
By Enda80

Daredevil#226 has a fb to Stick's training of Murdock. I don't have the issue, but I will see if I can find a copy today.

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Posted: 22 May 2005 08:32 am    
By SeanCurtin

IIRC, Matt was still in high school (if not younger) when he started training under Stick. I recall one flashback showed him in a basketball court being chided for letting on that he wasn't totally blind. 

-Sean

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Posted: 22 May 2005 10:14 am    
By jephyork
Director

That sounds a lot like a scene on p.3-4 of this issue, actually. 

In this issue, young Matt is drawn vaguely enough that he COULD be a thin high school student ... although, I'm not too familiar with the new York public school numbering system ... do high schools still call themselves things like "P.S. 159", or is that just grade schools? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2005 02:04 am    
By Enda80

Dug out Marvel Saga#13. Murdock definetly looks to be about 18 or so when he saves the man from the careening truck, an event which happens before his father dies. 

This was buttressed I think by Daredevil#-1, which showed Murdock as about 20 when his father died. 

MWF also contradicted how Murdock and Natchious first met.

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Posted: 23 May 2005 08:36 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
MWF also contradicted how Murdock and Natchious first met. 
<<<

I'm not sure how that's relevant here. 

By the way, I had a look through Marvel Saga #13, and in one of the issues it reprints -- Matt's first meeting with Elektra, on campus -- he tells her that he was "fifteen" when he was blinded. 

And his father's death occured after he got into college -- not when he was still in high school, as WI2 #73 shows. 

At this point it seems obvious to me that D.G. Chichester, author of the issue, was drawing from MWF *and* regular DD continuity -- he was probably under the impression that MWF *was* the definitive DD origin. 

Jack Murdock's death, Matt Murdock's age, and the hooker-out-the-window scene all come from MWF, whereas his history with Foggy, Elektra and Karen all come from regular DD continuity. However, there's nothing really stopping similar histories from occuring later in the MWF "universe" ... whereas it's impossible to reconcile the MWF-looking events with what we know of the real DD's history, unless we say "the divergence point is that Matt's father's death occured four years early." 

I was thinking that the two panels of Karen Page constitute new material, but I don't think we can include them -- it looks to me like this issue splits from the MWF "universe" rather than Earth-616. So the clips of "what could have been" probably feature the MWF Karen Page, rather than the "real" Karen. 

Ah well, I tried. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 70

Posted: 13 May 2005 09:10 pm    Post subject: Pre-Calendar Update Call for Analyses
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I gearing up toward posting an update of the Calendar, but before I do, I want to make sure it's as complete as I can make it. If anyone can post issue analyses for the following comics sometime in the next several days, I'll work in the ones that fit within the timeframe I'm covering (July of Year 20 through December of Year 22). I've indicated the names of those chronologists who at some point volunteered to provide analyses. I do know that, in a couple of Jeph's cases (Jubilee and Nightcrawler), we're waiting for TPBs to come out, but I'm sure we'd welcome a submission from someone else earlier. Thanks to all, and if I have a completed analysis here by mistake, let me know. 

Black Widow v3 (I do have issue #1) 
Black Widow v4 #3-6 (Kevin) 
Bullseye: Greatest Hits #1-5 (John) 
Exiles #46-48 (Jeph) 
Guardians #6 
Jubilee #3-5 (Jeph) 
Loki #1-4 (John) 
Marvelous Adventures of Gus Beezer: Gus Beezer & Spider-Man #1 -- canonical? (Russ) 
Nightcrawler v3 #1-6 (Jeph) 
NYX #5 (Paul O.) 
Punisher: Red Xmas (PopularLoser) 
Shang-Chi: Master of Kung Fu #3-5 [a mini-series from 2002-2003] 
Tomb of Dracula v2 #1-4 (Don) 
Venom Vs. Carnage #1-4 (JLH) 
Wolverine/Punisher #2-3 (Jeph)
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 15 May 2005 09:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 13 May 2005 09:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Daredevil: Father #1-5 (Kevin or Russ; toss a coin?) 
<<<

Hunh? Did I volunteer for that? If so, take me off. I don't have DD:FATHER. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Marvelous Adventures of Gus Beezer: Gus Beezer & Spider-Man #1 
<<<

I'll take it. 


watching: suns vs. mavericks

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Posted: 14 May 2005 06:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

NYX #6 and #7 still haven't come out. They're supposed to be on the schedule for the summer, although I'll believe it when I see it. 

Is GUS BEEZER really canon?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 May 2005 09:14 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Is GUS BEEZER really canon? 
<<<

God, I hope not. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 14 May 2005 01:13 pm    
By shandrakor

Only one issue of DD:Father ever came out...

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Posted: 14 May 2005 01:27 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

That makes a little more sense, because I may have the first issue. 


watching: lace ii

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Posted: 14 May 2005 09:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, let's strike DD:FATHER from the list. As for Gus Beezer, I'm not familiar with the character except that he's rather cartoonish. Still, that didn't stop Howard the Duck or Slapstick from being canonical. As for NYX, does it make sense to submit analyses of issues #1-5 at this point?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 May 2005 10:26 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

As you can probably tell, Paul, I've fallen behind on my reviews.  

Life's been busy lately, and I haven't found time to catch up. However, I'll try and sit down and finish reviews for the Black Widow miniseries, (v4) and post it here in the next few days. If you can wait a few more days after that, I might be able to post reviews for the latest Punisher story arc. Though come to think of it, I think that arc is farther along on the calender than the section of the calender you're getting ready to post, (going by Nick Fury's chronology). 

Are you just planning on adding a "Page 5" to the calender? (the last half of Year 22)? Cause I believe the last Punisher arc goes in the next year, after the events of New Avengers, (where do you have that on the calender currently)? 

Speaking of reviews that are not relevant to the current calender posting... 

Elektra: The Hand #1-5 
Loki #1-4 
Strange #1-6 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 

These are all set in the past, I believe, (so it might be wise for the people who volunteered for those titles, to perhaps focus on other, more modern titles they volunteered for). I say this so that we can get the maximum number of "new" information available for the modern calender era, (which is what I believe Paul B. is focusing on for now). 

Though I'm sure any and all reviews are welcome, (sorry Paul, if I'm butting in on your requests)... 

Bullseye: Greatest Hits has a framing sequence that is probably set in the "today" of the Marvel Universe, so it would be relevant to the current portion of the calender. 


Quote: 
>>>
As for NYX, does it make sense to submit analyses of issues #1-5 at this point? 
<<<


I think Paul O. might've already submitted analysis for the first 3 or 4 issues, (unless I'm remembering wrong)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 12:14 am    
By jephyork
Director

Yeah, "Elektra: the Hand" is completely set in the past ... the bulk of the series takes place in the 1590s, and the framing sequence with Elektra occurs "many years ago". You can definitely drop it from the list. 

Jubilee won't be getting a TPB -- I've managed to track down #1-5 in quarter bins, and I'll post analyses for them shortly. I have all of today free, so maybe I can churn out some analyses for you. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 May 2005 09:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Are you just planning on adding a "Page 5" to the calender? (the last half of Year 22)? Cause I believe the last Punisher arc goes in the next year, after the events of New Avengers, (where do you have that on the calender currently)?  
<<<

In addition to a page 5, there'll be a lot of changes to what's already there, especially page 4. New Avengers is squarely in the first six months of Year 23. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I think Paul O. might've already submitted analysis for the first 3 or 4 issues, (unless I'm remembering wrong)... 
<<<

Right you are. Issues #1-4 are on the calendar. (Sorry, Paul O.) No review yet for issue #5. 


I'll edit the original post to reflect removals and updates.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 May 2005 04:06 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

My Black Widow review should be up some time this weekend Paul, (it may be the very end of the weekend, but I should pull this off)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 19 May 2005 05:20 pm    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Speaking of reviews that are not relevant to the current calender posting... 

Elektra: The Hand #1-5 
Loki #1-4 
Strange #1-6 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 

These are all set in the past, I believe, (so it might be wise for the people who volunteered for those titles, to perhaps focus on other, more modern titles they volunteered for). I say this so that we can get the maximum number of "new" information available for the modern calender era, (which is what I believe Paul B. is focusing on for now). 
<<<

Loki's completely non-canon (and I suspect Strange either is non-canon, or will become as such whatever is currently intended, since it's another Chapter One, with ridiculously heavy revisions to the Doctor's backstory. Indeed, since "Classic" Dormammu's due to be in the Defenders mini...)

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2005 12:24 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Loki's completely non-canon (and I suspect Strange either is non-canon, or will become as such whatever is currently intended, since it's another Chapter One, with ridiculously heavy revisions to the Doctor's backstory. Indeed, since "Classic" Dormammu's due to be in the Defenders mini 
<<<

Yes, I'm in agreement about the "Strange" miniseries: it's reading more and more like a total retcon. Almost certainly non-canon. 

But this thread gives an explanation that there's no reason for Loki to be non canon. I think it's a miniseries that could definently be placed SOMEWHERE in Thor and Loki's chronology...the only question is where.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 May 2005 06:13 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

STRANGE is a deliberate retcon but also intended to be canon. AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #500, or somewhere around there, contains a set-up scene, the gist of which is that Strange interferes with the timeline, Spider-Man disrupts the spell, and Strange is left vulnerable to attacks on his history. So there's an in-story justification for the revision to history. 

In any event, it's probably going to be on the long list of "legitimised by HOUSE OF M."
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 May 2005 06:39 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
STRANGE is a deliberate retcon but also intended to be canon.  
<<<

Okay, so that begs the question: how do we handle a canonical retcon?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 May 2005 09:39 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Okay, so that begs the question: how do we handle a canonical retcon? 
<<<

Just ignore it till the next retcon comes along? 

Seriously, though, it looks like we're getting set to have a major discussion once House of M gets published...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 May 2005 09:06 pm    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Loki's completely non-canon 
<<<

But this thread gives an explanation that there's no reason for Loki to be non canon. I think it's a miniseries that could definently be placed SOMEWHERE in Thor and Loki's chronology...the only question is where. 
<<<

Loki gets his head crashed in with a big hammer at the end of the story - that's the point. Yes, yes, you could try and slot it in and pretend he doesn't, but you'd have to gut it to do so. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
...and I suspect Strange either is non-canon, or will become as such whatever is currently intended, since it's another Chapter One, with ridiculously heavy revisions to the Doctor's backstory. Indeed, since "Classic" Dormammu's due to be in the Defenders mini... 
<<<

Yes, I'm in agreement about the "Strange" miniseries: it's reading more and more like a total retcon. Almost certainly non-canon. 
<<<

STRANGE is a deliberate retcon but also intended to be canon. AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #500, or somewhere around there, contains a set-up scene, the gist of which is that Strange interferes with the timeline, Spider-Man disrupts the spell, and Strange is left vulnerable to attacks on his history. So there's an in-story justification for the revision to history. 

In any event, it's probably going to be on the long list of "legitimised by HOUSE OF M." 
<<<


1) I very, very much doubt we're going to get a big Zero Hour-style timeline at the end of this that tells us what's (now) in & out (and hell, they didn't stick to THAT). If there is history-rewriting out of this, it's going to be like Crisis - a big messy bunch of strands that are going to overwrite each other, and even when everything's reasonably sorted in 20 years time, Mark Waid & Jeph Loeb'll come in and mess it all up again. Dr Strange isn't a major enough character that we're going to see this stuff stick. 

2) You've got a contradiction in here. Setup - ASM500, pre-Disassembled (certainly pre-HoM). Dr Strange is involved in both Disassembled and the HoM setup in his classic setup. Plus, both Dr S & Dormammu are in a Defenders mini in their classic forms which doesn't start until after HoM and finishes a month later; which if not conclusive is certainly evidence for the defence. 

Even if Joe Quesada and Brian Bendis both bless this in naked elk blood rituals on a midsummer full moon, this will not stick.

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Posted: 21 May 2005 01:45 am    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Venom Vs. Carnage #1-4 (JLH) 
<<<

I'll have that up in a day or so. I was gonna wait until "Toxin" got through, but since you need it now, and the two aren't tied exclusively, me shall do.

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Posted: 21 May 2005 04:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Much obliged, JLH.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 May 2005 12:06 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

The review for Black Widow vol. 4 is done, but I lost internet access at home this last weekend. I'm just posting quickly from work at the moment. The internet should get fixed tonight, so I should post the review tonight, but if it isn't fixed when I get home, then I'll have to figure out something...copy the review onto a disk and take it to the library or something...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 May 2005 12:44 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, the internet is working now at my household, so I just posted my review for the latest Black Widow miniseries...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 May 2005 06:55 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin. I'm still playing catch-up with last week's torrent of comics and need to add Life Lessons as well. Plus, I'm going to be posting an update about the placement of Enemy of the State. Then I'll incorporate your notes about Black Widow and JLH's notes about Venom Vs. Carnage. After that, I've got some Spider-Man glitches that need attention. Sheesh, that Calendar update just keeps further away...
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 71

Posted: 24 May 2005 12:36 am    Post subject: Chronology Review for Black Widow Vol. 4...
By Kevin W.
Director

Chronology Review for Black Widow Volume 4, (#1-6) 

This miniseries basically revolves around an assassination attempt on the Black Widow's life in the first issue, and it spends the rest of the miniseries having her hunt down who was responsible for ordering the hit. Along the way, the miniseries also tweaks Natasha's origins a little bit, (or a lot, depending on how you look at it...I'm not all that familiar with her history). Chronologically, it's not the hardest thing in the word, but the plot's kinda hard to keep track of. 

Black Widow #1 
Part 1: Right to a Life 
Written by Richard K. Morgan 
Drawn by Bill Sienkiewicz 

Appearances: Natasha Romanova, Stacy Matheson, Phil Dexter, Max Hunter, Kestrel, Sally Anne, Vassily Ilyich Ulyanov, Ian McMasters. 

Synopsis: 

pgs. 1-12: Day #1: The story starts out showing a series of assassinations around the world, (specifically in London, Shanghai, Sydney, Osaka, and Alabama). Each of the people killed in the assassinations are women. 

The story then cuts to the Black Widow, who is waking up one morning at her house out in the Arizona desert. Natasha states in the narrative that she is now retired, and this place out in the desert is her new home away from all the troubles of the world. Just how long she's been living out here the story doesn't say. Natasha decides to go rock climbing that morning, but on her way out to the mountain range, she pulls over to help a person seemingly stranded along the side of the road. This person returns the favor by trying to kill her, but she kills him instead. 

Quickly figuring out that someone wants her assisinated, Widow drives off, calling up an old SHIELD associate named Phil Dexter, who is apparently also retired, and lives in New Mexico. She drives out to his house and asks him for assistance. He reports to her that there was an assassination of a woman's rights activist out in Alabama this same day, but using his SHIELD connections, he's found out that the woman killed was really Stefanya Melnikova, a retired KGB Deep-Cover operative living in the U.S. They both conclude there is some sort of connection, and Natasha decides they should drive to Alabama. 

They take off in Phil's car... 

Meanwhile, that same evening, on a boat out in the Caribean Sea, we are introduced to the man who ordered all of these hits: Ian McMasters, whom we later learn is the head of the Gynacon corporation. With him is Vassily Ilyich Ulyanov, a former Red Room spy who now works for McMasters. When McMasters figures out that the Russian operative Vassily sent to kill Natasha failed, he decides to call in agents from an organization called "North". 

pgs. 13-22: Day #2: Natasha and Phil drive straight on through the night. Pg. 12 shows them driving with the setting sun in the background, pg. 13 shows them driving after dark, in "Texas". This seems as good a place as any for the break between days. On pg. 14, Phil says they've been driving "Twelve hours non stop cross country." So it's morning now. 

The two of them stop at a gas station, where at Natasha stops a couple of truck drivers from roughing up a hitchhiking girl. She kills one of the two truck drivers, and breaks the other one's back. After that, they take the hitchhiking girl, (whom we later learn is called Sally Anne) and leave her in a safe house in Oklahoma. They then catch a train and continue their journey east towards Alabama... 

Meanwhile, that same morning, we are introduced to Max Hunter and Kestrel, agents of "North". They have found Natasha's car, where she left it in the middle of nowhere, New Mexico. They try and open the car, but it explodes, nearly killing the two agents. They're now determined to track down the Black Widow no matter what. 

References: 

Pg. 4: Natasha says in the narration that she's "retired". Now just when that occured is uncertain. It could be after the recent "Widow" story arc in Daredevil. In that arc, Natasha became a wanted figure by certain political forces. Fury could've asked her to "retire" for a while, till all the intrigue surrounding her cooled off. 

Pg. 11: While going over all of the information Natasha has brought to him, Phil says, "I can get some friends to look at all this stuff for us on Monday." So this issue is before a Monday, (it's probably the weekend, as that's usually the reason you have to wait for Monday's: because people aren't in there offices on the weekends). 

Also on pg. 11: Phil says, "Thirty-six year old women's rights activist Stacy Matheson, shot dead this afternoon outside the Norton family planning clinic-" So the murders of women around the globe as seen on pages 1 and 2 seem to have all happened on the same day as the scenes involving Natasha. 

Pg. 12: As Phil and Natasha drive along, she notes that the funeral for Stacy Matheson is "only 3 days away". Which puts the opening scene of next issue 3 days from the start of this issue. 

Black Widow #2 
Right to a Life: Part 2 
Written by Richard K. Morgan 
Layouts: Goran Parlov 
Finishes: Bill Sienkiewicz 

Appearances: Natasha Romanova, Phil Dexter, Sergeant Will Forester, Max Hunter, Kestrel, Nick Fury-BTS 

pg. 1: Natasha and Phil attend Stacy Matheson's funeral. They spot a mysterious Army Sergeant who seems out of place attending the funeral. Phil starts to trail the Army Sergeant, while Natasha starts asking around for information among the others who attended the funeral. 

They meet up later that evening and share what they've learned: Stacy was three months pregnant when she was killed. And the mystery guy is Sergeant Will Forester, a member of the INS.E.R.T. Corps, (a division of the Army). Still trying to figure out who killed her, they decide to head to Stacy's house to see what else they can turn up. 

At Stacy's house, they find documentation of her old days as a KGB spy. They also find evidence that leads them to believe that Sergeant Forester is the father of Stacy's unborn baby. They call up the nearby army base and fool Sergeant Forester into coming out to Stacy's house. 

Meanwhile, in New Mexico, Max and Kestrel have stopped in a diner to eat. They are at first unsure of where the Black Widow escaped to, and conclude she must have another ex SHIELD agent helping her. Just then, they get a phone call about the Stacy Matheson murder...and they quickly conclude that the Black Widow is now in Alabama. They send agents out to Stacy's house... 

Back at Stacy's house, Will Forester arrives, only to be caught by Natasha and Phil. They convince Forester to tell them everything about their relationship, (Forester was her secret boyfriend. He agrees to help them because he's concluded that somebody had her assassinated). Natasha asks Forester who gave Stacy a rare medicine called the "Medusagen", (which Natasha found in Stacy's bathroom). He doesn't know, but starts to tell something more-but just then, gunfire opens up on the house, blasting through the windows and killing Forester. Phil and Natasha make a break for it out the back, shooting the Black Ops agents as they flee. They make it to a parked car, but not before Natasha is shot by one of the enemy agents. She collapses to the ground... 

References: 

Pg. 6: This page has 3 seperate Flashbacks, on the first 3 panels of the page, (6 panels total). Natasha is explaining why she doesn't wear her classic Stinger Bracelets anymore: 

Panel #1: Natasha: "Heavy, Ackward, always getting in the way. In Moscow once, I damn near shot my own hand off. Plus they were Warsaw Pact Issue and you never could get the replacement parts in the U.S." As she narrates this, we see a panel of the Widow, (in her old costume with the high collar, with her sporting short hair) fighting some foes, and it appears her Stinger Bracelets are malfunctioning. So this must be the Russia scene she mentions. 

Panel #2: Natasha: "And they were always breaking down..." As she narrates this, we see a panel of the Widow, (in her later period all black costume, with no collar, and her having longer, shoulder length hair). She's caught in the middle of a gun battle, kneeling down behind a crate, and yanking off her stingers, which appear to be malfunctioning. 

Panel #3: Natasha: "I took them off ..." As she narrates this, we see a panel of what appears to be the Black Widow in a prison, with shackles on her wrists. The costume matches the last panel. I believe it is implied that because her stingers malfunctioned, she ended up losing a battle, and in prison, (till most likely Nick Fury bailed her out). 

Panel #4 jumps back to the present, as she says, "and just never put them back on again." Don't know if these scenes have been shown before now, or if they are all new flashbacks. I'm inclined to believe the latter. 

Pg. 13: Max Hunter and Kestrel have the following snipet of conversation: 

Kestrel: "If that's the case, Fury would know." 

Max: "Yeah, but there's no reason on Earth he'd feel the need to share it with us. He's barely cooperating as it is." 

It would appear Nick Fury is providing some cover for Natasha again, (similar to the recent "Widow" story arc in Daredevil). I feel this is enough to warrant a BTS entry. 

Black Widow #3 
Part 3: Now That's What I Call a Woman 
Written by Richard K. Morgan 
Layouts: Goran Parlov 
Finishes: Bill Sienkiewicz 

Appearances: Natasha Romanova, Phil Dexter, Max Hunter, Kestrel, Nick Fury, Sally Anne, Jim Koenig, Martin Ferris. 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-5: The next day after the end of last issue. Natasha and Phil have driven away from the scene of the gunfight, but are now pulled over to the side of the road, so Natasha can clean the gunshot wound to her gut. She says it's merely a flesh wound. After applying some disinfectant, they drive off. Phil notes that it's "6:15 in the morning" and there's no telling how long they were driving, so I think it makes sense for the start of this issue to be the break between the two days, (since last issue ended at night). 

Meanwhile, at that same time, we see another female ex-Russian agent heading towards a strange building out in a field in the Ural mountain range. She is shot by guards at this place which we learned is called the "Red Room". 

Cut to what I suspect is later on that night. Phil and Natasha are back in Oklahoma, having fled Alabama. They are back at the safehouse where they left Sally Anne, (from Issue #1). Phil has placed some calls and has found out that the agent who tried to kill Natasha in Issue #1 was an agent of the "Red Room", which is the old KGB spy training facility, (which trained Natasha supposedly). She decides it's time to seek out some more information. 

Pgs 6-12: The Next Night. Natasha, Phil, and Sally Anne, (whom they are letting come along with them) are now in Atlanta, Georgia. Natasha breaks into the house of Jim Koenig, a "middle management spook" whom she thinks can give her answers on the Red Room's current operational status. Koenig tells her that the Red Room has come out of retirement, (it was disbanded when the Soviet Union collapsed). Jim says that he gets all his information from a Martin Ferris, who acts as a U.S. Govt. liason to the Red Room's activities here in the U.S. Natasha regroups with Phil and Sally Anne and they drive off. 

Pgs. 13-14: The Next Morning. In Washington D.C., Max and Kestrel are talking to Nick Fury. They discuss that Natasha was in Atlanta Georgia "last night" but now the trail has grown cold again. Fury makes clear that he doesn't like the organization that Max and Kestrel works for, (called "North"...Nick Fury says "I'm sorry this administration sees fit to let scum like you operate"). 

Pgs. 15, panels 1 and 2, (of 5): That Night. Natasha, Phil, and Sally have stopped at a hotel in "North Carolina" for the night. Phil has done some more research, and tells Natasha everything he knows about Martin Ferris, which is whom Natasha decides she needs to speak to next. 

Pgs. 15, panels 3-5, to pg. 23: Natasha and the gang are now in Washintong D.C.. I assume this is now the next night after the last scene. Natasha has located Martin Ferris, and hooks up with him at a bar, where she succeeds in seducing him, and getting him to take her back to his place. Once there, she captures and drugs him, forcing him to talk about his connections to the "Red Room", which it turns out is now called "2R". 

Pgs. 19-23: It takes Natasha a while to get Ferris to talk, and later on, Phil notes it's "nearly 3 am", so between pages 18 and 19 seems the best place for the break between days. Natasha finishes up her interrogation of the drugged Ferris. She learns that "2R" is in league with a Cosmetics company called "Gynacon". He gives her some names and addresses in Russia, and the location of the Red Room's facility in the Urals...She leaves him and heads back to where Phil and Sally Anne are back at the hotel. She decides she's going to have to head back to Moscow to figure out who's really behind the assassination attempt on her... 

References: 

Pg. 1: In Nick Fury's office, there is a computer monitor with a picture of the Black Widow on it, and underneath it the words, "Natalya Romanova". I at first figured they simply got the spelling wrong, but there are a couple of other instances in this miniseries where other's call her "Natalya"...anyone know what's up with that? I mean, her name is Natasha... 

Also, Nick Fury is clearly in charge of SHIELD in this miniseries, though he does seem unhappy that he is being forced to cooperate with other spy agencies, to help hunt down the Widow. 

Black Widow #4 
Part 4: No Place Like Home 
Written by Richard K. Morgan 
Layouts: Goran Parlov 
Finishes: Bill Sienkiewicz 

Appearances: Natasha Romanova, Phil Dexter, Max Hunter, Kestrel, Sally Anne, Grigor Ivanovich Pchelintsov, Vassily Ilyich Ulyanov, Ian McMasters, Lyudmila Kudrin. 

Synopsis: The story picks up on what is probably a few days later. Natasha is now in Moscow. She's doing two things: checking out the addresses she was given by Martin Ferris last issue, and occasionally looking around the city for people she knew from her childhood. Niether is turning up anything yet. She's wandering around the city, and wondering why people she knew from her youth have all disappeared. She heads back to the motel where she's staying, and places a call to Phil and Sally Anne back in the U.S. They are now back at Phil's place in New Mexico. After hearing they're doing fine, she hangs up the phone and heads back out onto the streets again, to do some more searching. 

Eventually she finds one of the addresses on the list look a little bit familiar to her. So even though the security guards out front tell her it's abandoned, she sneaks in through a window upstairs. Searching through the building, she eventually comes across a room which triggers a memory: She suddenly knows that she was experimented upon as a child in this room. 

She begins to questions her memories, and screams out in frustration. This alerts the security guards down at the front entrance, and they come in looking for her. She manages to escape with the help of an old man who suddenly appears; he introduces himself as Grigor Ivanovich Pchelintsov. He rushes her into a secret attic in the building, which is where he stays. He lives here in secret now, hiding from the world in this old building. She starts demanding what his connection is, and he reveals he was one of the scientists who experimented on her years ago. It turns out there were a total of 27 Black Widow agents initiated into the Red Room program years ago. All of them were put through a psychochemical regiment which implanted fake memories into their minds, and which gave them headaches and vomiting if they try to remember the truth. When asked why they did this to her, Grigor replies that it was different times back then, and they had to defeat the U.S.A., so the Black Widow program was Russia's attempt to create perfect spies. 

After prying some more information out of Grigor, she learns more about the Field Station out in the Ural Mountains. Grigor says that is where they did the work on the Medusagen chemical, (which Natasha still wants to know about, and why Stacy Matheson was taking it). Natasha goes and steals a jeep and forces Grigor to get in, telling him to guide her out to the field station in the Urals... 

Meanwhile, back in the USA, Max and Kestrel are in Langley, Virginia, where they are trying to get ICT Monitoring (another USA Spy Agency) to cooperate with them, but the guy in charge of that department refuses to help them. Max and Kestrel are getting sick of other agencies not helping them, but they leave. The guy who refused to help them calls up Phil, (apparently he's a friend of Phil's) and warns him that the "North" agency is getting close to finding out he helped Natasha... 

Also Meanwhile, Mr. McMasters and Vassily are on their boat, discussing who's fault it is that the Black Widow hasn't been caught yet. Vassily blames Max and Kestrel, Mr. McMasters blames the Russians...Vassily suddenly gets a phone call from Lyudmila Kudrin, an old woman who is in charge of the field station in the Ural Mountains, (more on her next issue)... 

References: 

There are a few flashbacks in Natasha's head to her childhood in this issue, but only one of which is canon, (more on that in a moment). The revelation near the end that all memories of her childhood are all memory implants means they aren't canon. Furthermore, it very well could mean any flashbacks to Natasha's childhood shown in previous issues, (going all the way back to her introduction) should probably be written off as memory implants. Her true memories start with her training in the Black Widow program. Now as mentioned, there is one flashback which we are led to believe is canon: 

Pg. 9: As Natasha opens up the room which triggers a new memory, she remembers sitting in a chair being dosed up with chemicals by some doctors, while being forced to watch a television screen showing pictures of a ballerina. She looks to be between 10 and 13 years old in this scene. The flashback goes from Pg. 9, panel 1 to panel 3, (out of 5 panels). 

Pg. 19: As Grigor and Natasha talk, Grigo mentions that there were more than one "Black Widows". 

Natasha then asks, "You're talking about Yelena Belova, right?" 

Grigor replies, "Yel...oh...her. Oh, my goodness, no. Belova was a, an aberration. Nothing to do with the REAL Black Widow program. I believe she models fetish lingerie these days." 

I believe this is a reference to a figure from a prior Black Widow miniseries...am I correct? 

Moving on, it's daytime in the scenes in the U.S.A., (in fact, Phil and Sally Anne are cooking breakfast). Meanwhile, it's nighttime in the scenes with Natasha in Moscow. No telling if it's after midnight where Natasha is, so I think it might be best to just leave the entire issue happening on the same day, (morning in the USA, and before Midnight in Moscow). 

Black Widow #5 
Part 5: A Field in the East 
Written by Richard K. Morgan 
Layouts: Goran Parlov 
Finishes: Bill Sienkiewicz 

Appearances: Natasha Romanova, Phil Dexter, Max Hunter, Kestrel, Sally Anne, Grigor Ivanovich Pchelintsov, Lyudmila Kudrin, Vassily Ilyich Ulyanov 

Synopsis: It's probably the next day after the end of last issue. Natasha and Grigor have been driving for a long while now. It's daylight outside, and they are in the Ural mountain range. Figuring out there are snipers on the tower above the Field Station, she has Grigor drive up to the front entrance, while she sneaks around through the back of the field. Before the sniper can shoot Grigor, she climbs the tower and takes out the sniper. She figures out the people who run this old Red Room facility no longer use it. It's just an empty station, left standing to lure returning rogue agents, (like Natasha) into a trap. The real facility is inside a nearby mountain. 

Meanwhile, Max and Kestrel head back to New Mexico, to talk to the local sheriff near where they found the Widow's car, (at the end of Issue #1). He says he's done some more asking around, and some people saw a strange car stopping along the side of the road out near where they found the Widow's car. They got a partial liscense plate number, (this was Phil's car)... 

Also Meanwhile, Mr. McMasters boat is docked at "Freeport, Bahamas" for some reloading. It's nighttime. As the boat lies docked, a mysterious assassin comes and tries to get onto the boat to kill Mr. McMasters, but Vassily stops him and kills the assassin. We are told that Mr. McMasters is a powerful corporate man, whom rivals corporations want to see dead. I think this scene was included just to show how "cool" Vassily is in battle... 

Back in the Urals, Natasha has waited for nightfall, but has now slipped into the real Red Room facility inside a nearby mountain. She sees that this place is a full fledged operational labratory. Breaking into the office of the woman who runs the place, she meets Lyudmila Kudrin, former head of Biotech at the Red Room, and another of the scientists who worked on the Widow progam, years ago. Natasha gets a good many answers from her. Lyudmila explains that she had all of the Widow's genetic structure altered as follows: "Your wounds heal four, maybe five times as fast as a normal human's would. You hardly get sick, you don't age as fast...your hair doesn't fall out, your skin can take wind and sun..." 

Natasha also learns that she can't have babies. If she gets pregnant, her body automatically has a miscarriage. We find out what the Medusagen is: It's a pill which lowers your immune and repair functions. Stacy Matheson was taking it to keep her body weak, so it's super healing functions wouldn't terminate her pregnancy, (she wanted to keep her baby). 

Natasha asks what Lyudmila is doing these days, and Lyudmila explains they sold most of their biotech to an American corporation named "Gynacon"... 

Meanwhile, back in New Mexico, Max and Kestrel have finally located Phil's house. They barge in, shooting and appearing to wound Sally Anne and kill Phil... 

References: 

Pgs. 17-18: There are a montage of flashbacks on this page, which I don't know whether to count as real flashbacks or not. Panel #2, (out of 3 panels) on page 17 shows the room where the young Black Widow girls slept at night while in training, it also shows the girls being trained in knife fighting techniques, it also shows them marching underneath the hot day sun. It's basically a montage showing what life was like being trained in the Black Widow program. I can't make out any particular one which might be Natasha. Pg. 18 has what at first glance appears to be a flashback: it shows the Widow kneeling down with a machine gun, getting ready to fire. The narrative caption says, "I'm sorry, Natasha, it...The Black Widow Program...we wanted warriors, not mothers..." I think this is just a "showing Natasha in action" shot, and not a true flashback to any particular incident. 

Pg. 20: There are two flashbacks on this page, (which has a total of 4 panels): Panel #2 shows the fight between Natasha and the assassin from Issue #1, (so we've already seen this). Panel #3 shows Natasha walking through the field behind the field station at the start of this issue, and passing by a dead body of another former Black Widow agent. We didn't actually see this scene earlier, we just saw here climb up the tower and catch the guard by surprise, so I figured I'd make note of it. However, it happens within this issue, not in a prior issue, so I don't think it would get a unique entry on the calender or the MCP. If I'm wrong, and it does get a mention, this new panel happens inbetween panels 3 and 4 of page 2, (which has 6 panels). 

Black Widow #6 
Part 6: Now That's What I Call A Woman, (Reprise). 
Written by Richard K. Morgan 
Layouts: Goran Parlov 
Finishes: Bill Sienkiewicz 

Appearances: Natasha Romanova, Phil Dexter, Max Hunter, Kestrel, Nick Fury, Sally Anne, Lyudmila Kudrin, Vassily Ilyich Ulyanov, Ian McMasters. 

Synopsis: 

Pg 1-pg. 9, (panels 1 and 2, out of 5): The story picks up again what is probably a few short days later. Natasha and Lyudmila are on a cargo plane flying over Alaska. They are detected by U.S. radar, and are about to be shot down, but Nick Fury gets on the line and tells them to let that plane land. The plane lands at SHIELD West Coast Command in Oregon, where Natasha and Lyudmila meet up with Fury. Fury takes them to a nearby SHIELD hospital, where Fury shows that Phil Dexter is in the hospital unconsious, recovering from several gunshot wounds. Natasha asks where Sally Anne is, but Fury says there was no one else there when they found Phil. 

Fury says he believes "North" is behind the attack, but refuses to aid her more beyond that. He walks away, and Natasha states she always feels like punching Nick Fury, but never does. Lyudmila says there's a reason for that, (and this is the part I have a hard time swallowing): When the Russian govt. authorized the Black Widow program, they demanded there be a control mechanism in the girls they were training. So they came up with a "Pheromonal Lock and Key" which high ranking officials could spray onto themselves. Anybody with this scent could not be attacked by a Black Widow operative. Nick Fury stole this formula years ago doing spy work in Russia. Lyudmila says, "He used it to engineer your defection to SHIELD, and he still usees it now to control your reactions." So the Black Widow didn't really defect to America, she was coerced into it by Nick Fury using a pheromone chemical? 

Natasha is staying by Phil's bedside later that evening when Fury calls. Fury gives her a hint as to where Max and Kestrel are staying. 

Pg. 9, (panels 3 thru 5, out of 5) to pg. 12, (panels 1 and 2, out of 5): The Next Day, (or I assume it's the next day). Natasha manages to capture Kestrel, and she kills Max, (for shooting Phil). She then leaves the scene, having learned where they are supposedly keeping Sally Anne... 

Pgs. 12, (panels 3 thru 5, out of 5) to pg. 22: That Night, (or possibly the following night...it all depends on how quickly Natasha got to Miami): Ian McMasters boat is docked in Miami. Natasha sneaks on board the boat, and has a duel with Vassily, (who expected her arrival). Vassily is wearing the pheromone chemical, and Natasha finds she can't hit Vassily. Vassily starts to beat her up, but he makes the mistake in breaking Natasha's nose. See, supposedly now Natasha can't smell anymore, and so she becomes free from the chemical and she kills Vassily. Natasha starts interrogating McMasters. We learn that the reason McMasters wanted all of the Black Widow agents dead is that he's getting ready to file a patent on all of the chemical proceedures that the Red Room sold to his corporation, so he can use them on the Cosmetics market. He says his stocks would sink if it got out that a woman (Natasha and the other Widos) had been walking around with these chemicals in her body years before he got the patent on the chemicals. Natasha then demands McMasters tell her where Sally Anne is. McMasters says they brought her here, but Vassily had Red Room operatives take her away, and he doesn't know where they took her, so Natasha kills McMasters. That's how the issue ends. The last panel of the comic says, "Coming Soon: Black Widow vol. 2, by Richard K. Morgan". Morgan's the guy who wrote this miniseries, and I guess he'll spend another miniseries showing Natasha rescuing Sally Anne from any other Red Room operatives...though it makes for a hell of a way to end this miniseries. 

References: 

Pgs 6-7: As Lyudmila narrates to Natasha the history of the pheromone chemical, we see in flashback the following: 

pg 6, panel 4, (of 6): Russian Generals are in a meeting room going over the Black Widow program. They don't like the idea of women serving as independent agents. 

pg 6, panel 6, (of 6): Lyudmila, in flashback, along with some other scientists, stand before the same meeting room, reporting to the Russian Generals. They say they've come up with a pheromone chemical which will keep the Black Widow subjects in line. 

pg. 7, panel #1, (of 4): This panel shows all of the teenage Black Widow agents bowing down before a Russian general...apparently they were testing the pheromone in this scene. I can't make out which one is Natasha in the line of teenage girls shown, but she's supposedly there... 

Pg. 7, panel #2, (of 4): This panel shows Nick Fury breaking into the file cabinet in a Moscow office at night...this is apparently when he stole the formula. This should be placed in Nick Fury's chronology somewhere. 

And that's it for now. Next up on my Review list is the latest Punisher arc...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 May 2005 05:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for this analysis, Kevin. Quick question: how many pages in issue #5?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 May 2005 12:46 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

There are 23 pages in Issue #5. Let me know if you need anything else. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 May 2005 10:49 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin. I've added this series to my new draft of the calendar, running from Friday, October 17 through Monday, November 3 of Year 22.
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Paul B.

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Thread 72

Posted: 28 May 2005 07:09 am    Post subject: Monsters on the Prowl#23
By Enda80

This issue has claims to Earth-616 status for two reasons. First, Grogg the monster was referenced in the Winter Guard entry in the Teams Handbook. Also, the reprint changes the country involved to Bodavia. More on Bodavia later. 

Monsters on the Prowl#23 

Published: June 1973 

Written By Stan Lee, Drawn by Jack Kirby 

Appearances: Miklos Kozlov, Grogg, Ivan Grotsky 

Brief Syopsis: 

References: This is a reprint of a 1960's story, so I would say it took place in the 1960's absolutely. 

Flashback sequence: Two fbs 
1. the first recaps Grogg's previous appearance 
2. the second is new material, showing Grogg destroying a shipyard 

Second story; also docotred to Bodavia , though on page 2 Russia accidentally slips in, as does Moscow on page 3 


Appearances: Ivan Pushkin 

Brief Syopsis: A surgeon is forced to operate on a commissar, but intentionally leaves the scalpel in. 

References: This is a reprint of a 1950's story, so I would say it took place in the 1950's absolutely. 



GROGG 
MONSTERS ON THE PROWL 23-FB 
MONSTERS ON THE PROWL 23 

GROTSKY, IVAN 
MONSTERS ON THE PROWL 23 

KOZLOV, MIKLOS 
MONSTERS ON THE PROWL 23 

PUSHKIN, IVAN 
MONSTERS ON THE PROWL 23 


A word on Bodavia: 
Bodovia was a fctional country that Tony Isabella created for British Marvel reprints. 
http://www.worldfamouscomics.com/tony/back20031011.shtml 

It has also appeared in doctored pre-1967 story reprints such as: 

Chamber of Chills#8 (in a story set partially in the 1920s) 
Where Monsters Dwell#27 
Monsters on the Prowl#23/1 
Monsters on the Prowl#23/2 

The Silencer also came from Bodavia. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/silencrf.htm 

I figure that a reference to Bodavia serves to make things canon, same as if it was changed to Latveria.

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Posted: 28 May 2005 10:39 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Interesting. Thanks. Any clue as to when these stories were originally published. 

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
I figure that a reference to Bodavia serves to make things canon, same as if it was changed to Latveria. 
<<<

I'm more swayed by the reference in the Handbook, personally. Which leads me to ask, do Grotsky and Kozlov appear in the first or second story? 


watching: turnaround

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Posted: 28 May 2005 11:12 am    
By Enda80

Grotsky and Kozlov appear in the first story in this issue. However, Kozlov was also in the earlier story featuring Grogg. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/groggtta.htm 

Strange Tales I#83 (April, 1961) featured the first Grogg story and came out in 1961.

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Posted: 30 May 2005 09:54 pm    
By Enda80

I am actually compiling a list of those pre-1967 monsters who are now canon due to reference. 

Oog is now a part of the mainstrean universe. In 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/leestanl.htm 

(Marvel Comics: History of the Marvels) - Starting from circa the 1950s, the majority of Atlas output was devoted to titles depicting supposedly authenticated tales of peoples encounters with extraterrestrial lifeforms. Creatures such as Goom and Oog and Groot filled the pages-each tale personally verified and vouched for by Stan Lee and his staff.

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Thread 73

Posted: 24 May 2005 06:47 am    Post subject: Venom vs Carnage #1-4
By JLH

------------------------------------ 
VENOM VS CARNAGE #1 [SEP 04] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Artist: Clayton Crain 
"A Child is Born, Part One: Baby Please Don't Go!" 
[Title note: The cover logo lists the book as "Venom Carnage", with the second word beneath and slightly to the right of the first. The fine-print indicia lists it as "Venom Vs. Carnage". The story-title bubble calls it "Carnage and Venom".] 

Cast: 
VENOM 
BROCK, EDDIE (Behind the Scenes? He's now just the human host wrapped inside of the symbiote suit, with no mental control or say in what Venom does) 
CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY 
TOXIN (first appearance, offspring of Carnage)/ MULLIGAN, PATRICK (first appearance, New York City police officer and host for Toxin) 
MULLIGAN, GINA (first appearance, Patrick's pregnant wife) 
MULLIGAN, EDWARD (Behind the scenes, unborn son of Patrick & Gina) 
RANDOLPH Z (Behind the scenes. Paid Black Cat to steal his painting from the gallery, as revealed in the next issue) 

Other characters: 
Unnamed Art Gallery Owner and his dog, Rothko 
Unnamed peeper who spots Venom and tells Spidey 
Other unnamed art gallery attendants 


Summary: Carnage is pregnant with its first offspring. Venom is aware, and wants to ensure his "grandson", which will be the "1000th generation" of the symbiote line (which is known for having an increased chance of psychotic breakdown), survives, exactly the opposite of which Carnage desires. They fight, and bite, and eventually get separated. Carnage gives birth (in doing so giving Black Cat the chance to steal a painting in a lovely waste of time subplot), and attaches his offspring to an unsuspecting police officer known as Patrick Mulligan. Paddy returns home to his wife, who is coincidentally pregnant with their first son. Venom busts in, trying to protect the host, only to have Spider-Man intervene. While they're distracted, Carnage attacks Patrick in the stairwell, seemingly pushing Gina to her doom. Not to worry, Spidey catches her, but she goes into labor, and he's forced to choose between going after her captive husband, or getting her to the hospital. Venom fails to stop Carnage, who takes off with Patrick, and makes his intention of cutting out the offspring known. 


Continuity notes: Venom claims to be Carnage's father, which is technically no longer true. He ate his offspring in PPSM2 10. With "Webspinners #13", a new symbiote was bonded to Kasady. But in that story, and the prior PPSM2 13, Kasady had glowing eyes, and was acting possessed, drawn to the new symbiote by some kind of sense. It seems most likely that the original Carnage symbiote, which had bonded to Kasady on a bloodflow level, managed to somehow remain, in an intelligence or at least spiritual level, inside of him when his alien form was destroyed. The new symbiote, whether it had its own intellect or was a blank, was overridden as a template for Carnage to remake himself just as he used to be, right down to color and powers. 

Now, accepting that, it helps to clear up another continuity gaffe. I seem to recall the original Carnage symbiote could not produce offspring (I forget the reasoning behind it, if it's even true and I'm not confusing it with the sterilization done to the other Venom Spawn by the Life Foundation). But this new body template has apparently no such infertility. Course, this symbiote would really have no connection to Venom without the new Carnage body having an alien DNA identical to the previous version. Maybe his Silver Surfer experience gave him some sort of cosmic touch when it comes to surviving. Whatever. 

Another problem is Carnage's speech. In all other appearances (at least that I've read, and, come to think of it, I've read 'em all. Yes, you may so pity me), it is Cletus who speaks. The symbiote talks to him inside his head only. In this storyline, Carnage speaks for himself, with Cletus merely his human side who more or less agrees with everything he says. This may be another side effect of having a new symbiote body, or just the writer confusing his writing of the new "symbiote-only" Venom with that of Carnage. 

Chronology notes: Spidey claims that Venom sucked up Eddie Brock's soul. This firmly places the tale after "The Spectacular Spider Man vol 2 #5", where Eddie meets his end, the symbiote taking total control of his body to save his life. Course, Eddie's fine and dandy in "Marvel Knights Spider Man #6", unless that's really the symbiote pretending to be him, having passed its consciousness into his body, and thus, sells off the Venom form since he no longer has need of it. 

Just a suggestion, but I say "Venom vol 2" #15-18 for Venom/Eddie Brock's appearances, should be placed prior to SSM2 #1-5. In the former storyline, Venom and his "female clone" more or less have wet, sloppy symbiote sex. In the latter storyline, Venom is revealed to be pregnant. He's not preggers here, nor in his next appearance of MKSM 5 (Maybe THAT'S the real reason why Eddie sold off the symbiote: he'd become the host for its most recent child?). There's a little fact of Venom being infertile since forcibly giving birth to every one of its intended offspring in the original "Lethal Protector" series. The "mating" between Venoms in the now-defunct monthly book, an unlikely thing for a race that reproduces asexually to do, coupled with the cloned one's injected hormones, can account for Venom's managing to get knocked up. Another thing? V2 15 has Spidey claiming he and Venom had a "deal" to stay away from one another. This would put this meeting before the whole "Eddie loses his soul" thing, which ends with no deal, and starts with Spidey acting like he's seen Venom recently. If the chronologies for Spidey and the FF (who are in both storylines) can match up, I do so suggest placing them in this manner. But if not, bah. Another blunder among'er. 

Timeframe note: Takes place all in the same night. Full moon, no foliage, but short-sleeve shirt weather, apparently. 

------------------------------------ 
VENOM VS CARNAGE #2 [OCT 04] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Artist: Clayton Crain 
"Venom/Carnage, Part Two: Cops and Monsters" 
[Title note: The cover logo lists the book as "Venom Carnage", with the second word beneath and slightly to the right of the first. The fine-print indicia lists it as "Venom Vs. Carnage". The story-title bubble calls it "Venom/Carnage".] 

Cast: 
VENOM 
BROCK, EDDIE (Behind the Scenes? He's now just the human host wrapped inside of the symbiote suit, with no mental control or say in what Venom does) 
CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY 
TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN (Venom names his grand-spawn "Toxin" in this issue) 
MULLIGAN, GINA 
MULLIGAN, EDWARD (first full appearance, is born behind the scenes) 
RANDOLPH Z (is killed by Carnage) 

Other characters: 
Officer Meadows (partner to Patrick) 
Generic criminal 
Unnamed cops (one named "Nunez") 


Summary: Pat avoids getting gutted by Carnage, and ends up getting saved from falling to his doom by the Black Cat, who is returning the stolen painting to its original artist at the time. She's then saved by Venom, who recovers in time to resume beating up on his "son". He makes his intentions, of helping to raise the symbiote right (dubbing him "Toxin"), to possibly be an ally against Spider-Man one day. The battle comes to a close when Venom shoves Carnage in front of a subway train. The next day, Patrick is reunited with his wife at the hospital, seeing his son, Edward, for the first time. His thoughts about the monster within him continue to grow more worrisome, as, when out on the beat as a cop, he begins to manifest increased strength and reflexes. Upon learning about the painting theft, and recognizing Black Cat's rear end from security footage, he has the artist, Randolph, contact her. He wants to thank her, and bring her in. She tries to bribe him into letting her go for saving him, but discovers he's got reflexes on par with her own. Anyway, Carnage, in Cletus form, kills Randolph, attacks Pat and Cat, and thus, Toxin takes full form for the first time upon Patrick's body, a red-upper body, black bottom combo mix of Carnage and Venom. Just so you can't make out who's who in Crain's muddy-colored artwork? Carnage has the red word balloons, Venom the black, and Toxin the blue. 


Continuity notes: Black Cat doesn't recognize Carnage. Yet she was one of the many heroes who fought with Spidey during the whole "Maximum Carnage" arc! She also doesn't recognize Venom, despite, aside from fighting alongside him in that storyline, got the crap beaten out of her by him way back in ASM 316! Good gravy, did Felicia get amnesia during the missing issues of "The Evil That Men Do" or something? That'd probably do well in explaining why those issues have yet to come out, at least! 

Cletus Kasady's last name is misspelled as "Kassady" here each time it's used, despite being right in the previous issue. 

Timeframe note: Begins on the same night as previous issue, followed by the next morning. Then, that night (presuming Pat's "second day back on the job" means the first issue was his "first day back on the job"), the following morning, and ends up at that day's night. One tree is seen, and it has green leaves. 

------------------------------------ 
VENOM VS CARNAGE #3 [NOV 04] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Artist: Clayton Crain 
"Venom/Carnage, Part Three: The Monster Inside Me" 
[Title note: The cover logo lists the book as "Venom Carnage", with the second word beneath and slightly to the right of the first. The fine-print indicia lists it as "Venom Vs. Carnage". The story-title bubble calls it "Venom/Carnage".] 

Cast: 
VENOM 
BROCK, EDDIE (Behind the Scenes? He's now just the human host wrapped inside of the symbiote suit, with no mental control or say in what Venom does) 
CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER (Behind the Scenes. Next issue reveals he's in the bank and ready to step in, in case Toxin messes up) 
BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY 
TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN 
MULLIGAN, GINA 
MULLIGAN, EDWARD 

Other Characters: 
Gina's Mother 
Pat's Father 
Other In-Law relatives of the Mulligans 
Trio of bank robbers 
Bank hostages 


Summary: Pat, now having manifested the "living suit" portion of Toxin, beats up Carnage. Venom, watching from afar, realizes he has to let go of his grandchild, his hopes for it now lost. With Carnage off licking his wounds, Pat discusses his new transformation with Black Cat, who gives him advice on changing his "perfect cop, by the book, by the rules" ways to adapt to his changing lifestyle. He ponders this as his wife and baby come home from the hospital to their new apartment, and a gathering of relatives causes him to consider being more flexible with his newfound gift. Pat seeks out Cletus Kasady using Toxin's sense of connection to it. Toxin and Carnage fight again, remarks better befitting "Return of the Jedi" are displayed as the "I'm your father", "you're not my father!" banter rambles on. Carnage mentions the "Toxin" name to him Venom came up with, so it officially sticks. Pat, as Toxin, is unable to kill Carnage in cold blood. Despite how he clearly can't kill a severe mass-murderer, who's also the man who inflicted him with this symbiote and nearly killed his pregnant wife, Pat worries that Toxin will eventually threaten his newborn son Edward, though he doesn't talk anything out with his wife, since they have a "no monster talk" policy. Soon, Venom and Carnage, in the ultimate display of bad characterization, teamup to take down Toxin. Meanwhile, Pat turns into Toxin once more, this time to take out some crazy bank robbers. He seems to be letting the bloodthirst seemingly natural to the bloodline take over, and makes his intentions of eating their brains known, even though they've surrendered. 


Continuity notes: Again, Kasady is spelled "Kassady" here. 

Back to the Cletus/Carnage thing, we see Cletus talking to Carnage, and remarks how the symbiote is the "bus driver" and he's the bus. This is horribly contradictive of how he's been portrayed prior, so it really must be chalked up to the change of symbiotic bodies. 

Timeframe note: Begins on the night the previous issue ended on. We then see a day, where the Mulligans have "moved to a new apartment", and Gina & Edward finally come home from the hospital to it. So, obviously a little bit of time has passed. Trees are green, the ones shown don't have much foliage. The night of that new day (which is partially rainy), then the next day. 

------------------------------------ 
VENOM VS CARNAGE #4 [DEC 04] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Artist: Clayton Crain 
"Venom/Carnage, Part Four: Do The Right Thing" 
[Title note: The cover logo lists the book as "Venom Carnage", with the second word beneath and slightly to the right of the first. The fine-print indicia lists it as "Venom Vs. Carnage". The story-title bubble calls it "Venom/Carnage".] 
[Indicia amusement: This issue is given a date of "December, 2005" in the indicia, implying this issue was not only a year late, but doesn't come out until a few months into our future!] 

Cast: 
VENOM 
BROCK, EDDIE (Behind the Scenes? He's now just the human host wrapped inside of the symbiote suit, with no mental control or say in what Venom does) 
CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY 
TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN 
MULLIGAN, GINA 
MULLIGAN, EDWARD 
RANDOLPH Z (Behind the scenes, as a corpse in a casket) 

Other Characters: 
Trio of bank robbers 
That art gallery guy and Rothko from issue 1 
Other funeral-goers 
Bank hostages 
Some cops 
Naked people in animal masks (don't ask) 

Summary: Don't worry, Pat's only joking. He has full control of Toxin, and merely arrested the robbers. Spidey appears, having been hiding on the bank ceiling, making his approval of having a symbiote good guy known to him. The next day, he and Black Cat attend Randolph's funeral, which is crashed by Venom and Carnage. Spider-Man somehow "senses" the symbiote battle, and is drawn to it. Anyway, lots of tombstones get wrecked, and a mausoleum is smashed into for a final showdown. Toxin gets all focused and heroic, and basically sends Carnage & Venom running away scared. Yes, he fights them just a tad harder, and they flee like babies. This leads to a lot of discussion about how they'll be back, how does Pat juggle having a wife and kid knowing monsters could attack any time, blah blah. Upon returning home, a finger from one of the old corpses smashed up that day ends up in Baby Edward's clutches, freaking out Pat, who feels he's defiled his perfect, monster-less home with it. He realizes it's the monster in himself he's fearful most of, and after chucking the finger in the river, leaves his wife and newborn child without giving any clear reason. Pat walks off down the street, just him and his symbiote, like some kind of bad 1970s TV show pilot, not knowing what the future brings. He plans on modeling himself after Spidey, he says about 50 times, and plans to learn to control what he has inside him. The audience discovers the paper stock is not, in fact, waterproof as they collectively pass out upon their comics, and awaken hours later, feeling no loss in the book's damage from their drool. 


Continuity notes: Felicia's father didn't stick around to see her grow up right. Does that match up with her known history, or is this just throwaway comment? 

Toxin has no personality of its own in this mini. It's like Pat with the power of a lifeless yet living suit. There's no "talking between him and the suit" like there is Cletus and Carnage, strangely. But in the next mini, this goof has indeed been fixed. 

Timeframe note: Begins on the day the previous issue ended on. Presumably, Randolph's funeral is on the following day (since Pat went home after work, and it wasn't rainy at all then), which is rainy. The foliage is present, but not as full as it could be, I suppose. The story ends on that day's night. 


Calender breakdown for the mini: 
Night One (the birth): Carnage, Venom, Black Cat, Randolph, Spidey, Toxin/Pat Mulligan, Gina Mulligan, Edward Mulligan BTS 
Day One: Toxin/Pat, Gina, Edward, Venom, Spidey 
Night Two (Pat's second day back): Toxin/Pat 
Day Two: Toxin/Pat 
Night Three (Randolph's death): Toxin/Pat, Randolph, Black Cat, Carnage, Venom 
(gap of time?) 
Day Three (moving into new apartment, Carnage confronting): Toxin/Pat, Gina, Edward, Carnage 
Night Four: Toxin/Pat, Gina, Edward 
Day Four (bank robbery day): Venom, Carnage, Toxin/Pat, Spidey, Gina, Edward 
Day Five (Randolph's funeral): Carnage, Venom, Toxin/Pat, Randolph(bts), Spidey 
Night Five (Pat leaves home): Toxin/Pat, Gina, Edward 

The MCP breakdown of people and stuff: 

VENOM 
PPTSS2 5 
**VVC1 
**VVC2 
**VVC3 
**VVC4 
[MK:SM 5] 

BROCK, EDDIE 
PPTSS2 5 
**VVC1-BTS 
**VVC2-BTS 
**VVC3-BTS 
**VVC4-BTS 
[MK:SM 5] 

CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY 
ALIAS 26-BTS 
**VVC1 
**VVC2 
**VVC3 
**VVC4 
[New Avengers #whatever] 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
**VVC1 
**VVC2 
**VVC3-BTS 
**VVC4 
[When this takes place for him is up to those who know his chronology better. There's no indication of if this is before or after the "organic webbing" incident] 

BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY 
PPSM2 46-BTS 
[Evil That Men Do, others?] 
**VVC1 
**VVC2 
**VVC3 
**VVC4 

TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN 
**VVC1 
**VVC2 
**VVC3 
**VVC4 

Mulligan, Gina 
**VVC1 
**VVC2 
**VVC3 
**VVC4 

Mulligan, Edward 
**VVC1-BTS 
**VVC2 
**VVC3 
**VVC4 

Z, Randolph 
**VVC1-BTS 
**VVC2 
**VVC4-BTS 
(should he even get listed? He's barely even a supporting character, just provides motivation for BC to be places, and his funeral is a backdrop for the final fight) 
--------------------------- 
JLH

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Posted: 24 May 2005 10:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'd assume Eddie Brock should get a full listing for this series. Strictly speaking he's never actually seen, but only in the same sense that we never see Tony Stark when he's inside the Iron Man armour. He contributes nothing, but he's still there. 

The series is, of course, riddled with continuity errors, no doubt because nobody involved was aware that Carnage was on to his second symbiote. Your explanation seems as good as any - for plot purposes, the Carnage symbiote in this story really has to be the "real" Carnage in at least some sense, because the plot hinges on Venom acknowledging this Carnage as his offspring. 

Of course, we never really established where the duplicate Carnage symbiote came from - it just inexplicably turned up in the Negative Zone. Maybe it IS the original Carnage, somehow transported there through unrevealed means. Perhaps it's a counterpart of Carnage from another timeline, which would be close enough for the purposes of this storyline. Either would at least explain why Cletus was so drawn to it in WEBSPINNERS #13. 

For all its undeniable continuity problems, mind you, I've got a soft spot for this series. It's actually not bad, and Toxin turns out to be a remarkably workable character - basically, the concept is "What if one of the symbiotes had bonded with someone who wasn't mad?". Admittedly, we've kind of been there before with the original "alien costume" storyline - but this one's a newborn who's been bonded with its pleasant, sensible human host from the word go, so the character has a bit more potential. (I really like the current miniseries' take on Razor-Fist as well. He works so much better as a demented cult leader, rather than just some bozo henchman who lopped his arms off for a gimmick.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 May 2005 03:34 am    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I'd assume Eddie Brock should get a full listing for this series. Strictly speaking he's never actually seen, but only in the same sense that we never see Tony Stark when he's inside the Iron Man armour. He contributes nothing, but he's still there. 
<<<

Though, in Tony's case, he's piloting the suit as if it were any other sort of vehicle. Poor Eddie is basically the gooey human center being used by the symbiote this time around. But given how anytime Venom appears, the suit doesn't always "speak" and yet it counts for its appearance by way of the nature of their relationship, Brock is physically there in each shot, possessed or not. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Of course, we never really established where the duplicate Carnage symbiote came from - it just inexplicably turned up in the Negative Zone. Maybe it IS the original Carnage, somehow transported there through unrevealed means. Perhaps it's a counterpart of Carnage from another timeline, which would be close enough for the purposes of this storyline. Either would at least explain why Cletus was so drawn to it in WEBSPINNERS #13. 
<<<

Given how Mackie was using the Webspinners story to cash in on the "Spider-Man Unlimited" show on at the time (with the costume appearance), I wouldn't put it past him that he considered the new symbiote to be the TOON version of Carnage! 

Another silly notion... Cletus, as of "Maximum Carnage" onward, could always recreate the suit with a mere drop of blood. Though pieces of the symbiote never would last longer than a few seconds when not connected to the host body, somehow, someway, a fully formed suit-form of Carnage could have been sealed away in the Negative Zone, keeping it in stasis until Cletus recovered it. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
basically, the concept is "What if one of the symbiotes had bonded with someone who wasn't mad?". Admittedly, we've kind of been there before with the original "alien costume" storyline 
<<<

It was also done with the "Hybrid" back-ups of Venom, post-Planet of the Symbiotes. A former Guardsman from the Vault, now crippled, gets a strange symbiote mixture of four of Venom's five final offspring, and uses it for good. It's a bit busy for a backstory, but doing spinoffs from Venom and Carnage will always involve a lot of setting up the premise. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
- but this one's a newborn who's been bonded with its pleasant, sensible human host from the word go, so the character has a bit more potential. (I really like the current miniseries' take on Razor-Fist as well. He works so much better as a demented cult leader, rather than just some bozo henchman who lopped his arms off for a gimmick.) 
 <<<


Not to mention, Robertson's on art. Milligan using Razorfist is not entirely surprising, since he used him back on his time writing the 96 "Elektra" monthly book.

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Posted: 25 May 2005 04:09 pm    
By rhod

Wow, I'm tempted to buy this just to see if it's as bad as you make out.... 

Does anyone else marvel at the sheer egotism of a writer named Pete Milligan creating a new hero called Pat Mulligan?

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Posted: 28 May 2005 05:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, JLH. I wonder if you can do me a favor for the calendar. Can you break each issue into page and panel ranges to reflect the distinct days over which this story occurs? Just fill in the "x"s below. Thanks. 

Day One (the birth): 
VVC 1 
VVC 2 (1-x) 

Day Two: 
VVC 2 (x-x) 

Day Three (Randolph's death that night): 
VVC 2 (x-x) 
VVC 3 (1-x) 

Day Four (moving into new apartment, Carnage confronting): 
VVC 3 (x-x) 

Day Five (bank robbery): 
VVC 3 (x-x) 
VVC 4 (1-x) 

Day Six (Randolph's funeral, Pat leaves home): 
VVC 4 (x-x)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2005 06:17 am    
By JLH

Here you are. Not counting the recap page or the ads... 

Day One (the birth): 
VVC 1 
VVC 2 (pages 1-10) 

Day Two: 
VVC 2 (11-13, panel 2) 

Day Three (Randolph's death that night): 
VVC 2 (13 panel 3- page 22) 
VVC 3 (1-7) 

Day Four (moving into new apartment, Carnage confronting): 
VVC 3 (8-18) 

Day Five (bank robbery): 
VVC 3 (19-23) 
VVC 4 (1-3) 

Day Six (Randolph's funeral, Pat leaves home): 
VVC 4 (4-22)

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2005 11:36 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JLH. So, here's what I have in calendar entry format. Look good? 

VENOM VS. CARNAGE #1 
One night, sometime after PPTSS2 5. Carnage is pregnant with its first offspring. Venom is aware and wants to ensure his grandson survives, exactly the opposite of which Carnage desires. They fight and bite and eventually get separated. Carnage gives birth, giving Black Cat the chance to steal a painting, and attaches his offspring to unsuspecting police officer Patrick Mulligan. Pat returns home to his pregant wife, Gena. Trying to protect the host, Venom busts in, but Spider-Man intervenes. Gena goes into labor while Carnage attacks and abducts Pat, announcing his intention to cutt out the offspring. Bare trees and short-sleeve weather. Full moon. 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #2 (1-10) 
The same night as VVC 1. Pat avoids getting gutted by Carnage and is saved from falling to his doom by the Black Cat, who is returning the stolen painting to its original artist. Shes then saved by Venom, who recovers in time to resume beating up on his son. Venom wants to raise the symbiote (which he dubs Toxin) to be an ally against Spider-Man one day. The battle comes to a close when Venom shoves Carnage in front of a subway train. For some reason, Felicia doesnt recognize Venom or Carnage. 

VENOM VS. CARNAGE #2 (11-13p2) 
The day after VVC 2 (1-10). Patrick is reunited with his wife at the hospital and sees his son Edward for the first time. His thoughts about the monster within him continue to grow more worrisome when, out on the beat as a cop (on his second day back on the job), he begins to manifest increased strength and reflexes. Green tree. 

VENOM VS. CARNAGE #2 (13p3-22) 
The day after VVC 2 (11-13). Upon learning about the painting theft and recognizing Black Cats rear end from security footage, Pat has Randolph the artist contact her. He wants to thank her and bring her in. She tries to bribe him into letting her go for saving him, but discovers hes got reflexes on par with her own. Carnage, in Cletus form, kills Randolph and attacks Pat and Felicia. Toxin takes full form for the first time on Pats body. 
VENOM VS CARNAGE #3 (1-7) 
The same night as VVC 2 (13-22). Pat, now having manifested the living suit portion of Toxin, beats up Carnage. Venom, watching from afar, realizes he has to let go of his grandchild. Pat discusses his new transformation with Black Cat, who gives him advice on changing his by-the-book ways to adapt to his changing lifestyle. 

VENOM VS. CARNAGE #3 (8-18) 
The day after VVC 3 (1-7). Pats wife and baby come home from the hospital to their new apartment, and a gathering of relatives causes Pat to consider being more flexible with his newfound gift. Pat seeks out Cletus Kasady using Toxins sense of connection to it. Toxin and Carnage fight again and Pat, as Toxin, is unable to kill Carnage in cold blood. Pat worries that Toxin will eventually threaten his newborn son. We see green trees and a partially rainy night. 

VENOM VS. CARNAGE #3 (19-23) 
The day after VVC 3 (8-18). Venom and Carnage team up to take down Toxin. Pat turns into Toxin once more to take out some crazy bank robbers. 
VENOM VS CARNAGE #4 (1-3) 
The same day as VVC 3 (19-23). Spidey appears and approves of having a symbiote good guy. 

VENOM VS. CARNAGE #4 (4-22) 
The day after VVC 4 (1-3). Pat and Black Cat attend Randolphs funeral, which is crashed by Venom and Carnage. Spider-Man somehow senses the symbiote battle, and is drawn to it. Toxin sends Carnage and Venom running away scared. Upon returning home, a finger from one of the old corpses smashed up that day ends up in baby Edwards clutches, freaking out Pat, who feels hes defiled his perfect home with it. He realizes its the monster in himself that he fears most, and after chucking the finger in the river, leaves his wife and newborn child without giving any clear reason. He plans on modeling himself after Spidey and plans to learn to control what he has inside him. Leafy trees.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2005 06:26 am    
By JLH

You misspelled Gina's name as Gena, but otherwise? A-ohkeydokee!

			*	*	*

Thread 74

Posted: 19 May 2005 05:28 pm    Post subject: the X-Men in: Life Lessons
By jephyork
Director

Analyzing giveaway books is fun! 

"The X-Men in: Life Lessons" 
giveaway book sponsored by the Starbright Foundation (for children and teens with burn injuries) 
by Joe Casey and John Paul Leon 

Synopsis: 

The X-Mens newest recruit, a teenage boy codenamed T-Ray, suffers burns on his face and arm in a Danger Room accident. He leaves the X-Men and returns to public high school to deal with his disfigurement, and  after eventually learning to live with his appearance  is approached by Magneto to join the Brotherhood of Mutants. Magneto appeals to his feelings of being an outcast, but T-Ray declines and Magneto attacks him. Luckily, the X-Men show up to fight him off, and T-Ray rejoins them, happy to have overcome the self-doubt his injuries caused him. 

Appearances: 

Cyclops II 
Wolverine 
Nightcrawler 
Phoenix IV 
Professor X 
T-Ray II / Terry Raymond 
Magneto 

The first thing to note is that, in this issue, the X-Men are wearing their Morrison-era outfits, placing it after X #113. And since Magneto shows up to fight the X-Men, this must occur before X #114-116, the arc where he was believed killed. (Although we know now that he survived and was recuperating the whole time, the X-Men believed until #146 that he was killed on Genosha. So if theyre battling him and not questioning that hes alive, this should occur before X #114.) 

During this timeframe, Magneto had recently been stabbed by Wolverine (in X #113), and when we saw him briefly in #115 he was apparently wheelchair-bound. However, Magneto has used thin exoskeletons to function despite injuries before (UX #62-63), and we really dont know the full extent of the injuries he received from Wolverine  its not outside the bounds of reason that he could appear here, seemingly healthy. 

Backing up the idea of placement of between X #113-114 is that Prof. X is still wheelchair-bound, and the X-Mansion doesnt seem to have been converted into a school yet. Despite the cover art, Jeans TK doesnt manifest the Phoenix raptor in the issue. 

So, the main debate on this issues canonicity is  how believable is it that the X-Men have suddenly taken in a new member, a teenaged boy, and hes never seen or referenced again in any other comic? 

It is sort of a suspension-of-disbelief leap, but it seems rational to me. First off, the team has never had a strict no-teens policy  the team was composed ENTIRELY of teens in the 60s, and characters like Shadowcat and Jubilee have fought alongside the X-Men as relative equals for years. 

And theyve made special projects of young mutants before  in XU #8, Chris Bradley (Bolt) lived at the mansion for months, despite us never seeing evidence of that in another book. 

As for why the X-Men didnt pack T-Ray off to the Massachusetts Academy, perhaps thats evidence that this issue takes place after GENX #75, where the Academy closes  an issue which also occurs relatively shortly before X #114. 

And, as for why hes never seen again  well, in X #114, the Xavier Institute becomes a full-fledged school, and its possible that T-Ray was simply absorbed into the student body. He only went on one real "mission" with the X-Men that we saw  given his injuries, and the imminent influx of hundreds of young mutants to the grounds, the X-Men probably decided that T-Ray would do better as a student than as a junior team member. 

So, placing this issue closely before X #114 would have T-Rays sudden appearance read not as an anomalous new team member, but as simply the first of many new young faces at the Xavier Institute. 

Chronology notes: 

The issue occurs over the course of slightly more than a month. Heres how the pages break down: 

1-11p3  one day and night. Terry is burned. 
11p4-6  the next morning. 
12-13  "one month later." Terry is mobile but bitter. 
14  "the next night." Terry has left the mansion. 
15-19  the next day, Terry returns to school. 
20-22  the next few days  Terry wears different clothes on each page. By the end of the sequence, Terrys classmates have by-and-large accepted his appearance. 
23-30  one day. Magneto approaches Terry but the X-Men fight him off. 

Theres surely a gap of at least a month between X #113-114, so the issue should fit with no problem. Id still place it very close to the X #114 end of the gap, for several reasons: 

1. Nightcrawler is back with the team. He took a leave of absence following UX #390 to get over Colossus death, and returned off-panel, showing up without comment in UX #395 and NC2 #1. Nonetheless, we should place this issue close to X #114 to give Nightcrawler a properly long grieving period. 

2. Similarly, to give Magneto sufficient time to recover from his injuries at Wolverines hands. 

3. On pp.15-30, public school is in session. In X #114, Xaviers started a new term, and we can assume that their schedule is fairly close to that of the public schools (although the NM2 series did establish that Xaviers summer session had begun while Kevin Fords school was still wrapping up its spring semester). However, the farther back we place this issue in the gap between X #113-114, the less likely it is that public school is in session. 

4. The closer to X #114 we place this, the more believable it is that the new, teenage member the X-Men randomly had for a short period of time vanished because he was absorbed into the student body. Similarly, placing it after GENX 75 explains why the X-Men kept T-Ray around instead of shipping him off to the Massachusetts Academy. 


For simplicitys sake, Id tend not to break this issue up when placing it in the MCP  the passage of time in the various X-books occurring between X #113-114 is so vague that theres no solid way to tell which issues, if any, fall in the "month" gap between pp.11-12. Similarly, its possible that NO books happen to fall into that gap  or that a strict chronological analysis will show that the gap MUST for some reason or another be far less than a month. Why complicate things by guessing? Lets just keep it all as one listing, and stick it a large-ish gap close to X #114. 

(I can see Paul B. breaking this issue up into pieces and slotting it between unplaceable things like Prof. Xs XFO 117-FB and random stories from XU. Thats why I bring this up) 

Im trying to decide which side of UX #394 to suggest placing this on, but the way Scott and Jean act towards each other in this issue doesnt offer many clues. They eat together and walk into Prof. Xs office together, but there are no signs of either marital stress OR overt affection. I guess a calendar placement of UX #394 might help here  that issue occurs on the anniversary of UX #1. Anybody know what day, or time of year, that occurs on? 


This is actually a pretty good issue  its easily Joe Caseys most coherent X-book, and John Paul Leons artwork is always a treat. Its a shame its not more widely available. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 May 2005 10:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I guess a calendar placement of UX #394 might help here  that issue occurs on the anniversary of UX #1. Anybody know what day, or time of year, that occurs on?  
<<<

According to The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 1 #1, UX 1 occurred in late October of Peter Parker's senior year of high school. And unfortunately, UX 394 is on March 3-4 of Year 21 of the Calendar.  

I have X 113 ending on February 6 of that year, and X 114 on May 4 -- plenty of time for Life Lessons.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 May 2005 11:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Ah well, no placement clues to be gleaned there. Unless it's the X-and-a-*half* year anniversary.  

Still, good to hear that there's plenty of room for this book. And that, at least according to your interpretation, public school can be in session shortly before X #114. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 May 2005 08:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

While there may be plenty of room between X 113 and 114, other considerations may narrow that gap, not the least of which is the weeks-long Kang War (oy, that again!). I may be able to work Life Lessons into the calendar but would need to make sure there are no conflicts with the appearances of X-Men (especially Wolverine) in other books during this time. Please let me know: 1) if the breakdown below is accurate; and 2) which X-Men appear in each of these segments. Thanks. 


X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (1-11p3) 
One day. The X-Men appear in their Morrison outfits, so this segment must occur after X 113. That T-Ray is here rather than at the Massachusetts Academy may be an indication that this segment occurs after the closing of the Academy in GX 75 (31-38). The X-Mens newest recruit, a teenage boy code-named T-Ray, suffers burns on his face and arm in a Danger Room accident. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (11p4-11p6) 
The morning after X:LL (1-11). It is one month before X:LL (12-13). Terry is laid up from his injuries. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (12-13) 
One day, one month after X:LL (11p4-11p6). Terry is mobile but bitter. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (14) 
The night of the day after X:LL (12-13). Terry leaves Xaviers. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (15-19) 
The day after X:LL (14). Terry returns to public high school to deal with his disfigurement. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (20) 
Probably the day after X:LL (15-19). Terry at school. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (21) 
Probably the day after X:LL (20). Terry at school. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (22) 
Probably the day after X:LL (21). Terrys classmates have by-and-large accepted his appearance. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (23-30) 
Probably the day after X:LL (22). Given that Magnetos presence here surprises no one, this segment must occur before X 114. On a school day, Terry is approached by Magneto to join the Brotherhood of Mutants. Magneto (who appears healthy but may be using a thin exo-skeleton to function after injuries he sustained in X 113) appeals to his feelings of being an outcast, but T-Ray declines and Magneto attacks him. The X-Men show up to fight him off and T-Ray rejoins them, happy to have overcome the self-doubt his injuries caused him. Shortly after this point, Terry might be absorbed into the student body after the Xavier Institute becomes a full-fledged school in X 114.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 May 2005 07:23 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Please let me know: 1) if the breakdown below is accurate; and 2) which X-Men appear in each of these segments. Thanks. 
<<<

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (1-11p3) 
Cyclops 
Wolverine 
Nightcrawler 
Jean Grey 
T-Ray II 
Prof. X 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (11p4-11p6) 
Cyclops 
Jean Grey 
Prof. X 
T-Ray II, BTS? (they mention that he's in the hospital) 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (12-13) 
Nightcrawler 
T-Ray II 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (14) 
Cyclops 
Jean Grey 
Prof. X 
T-Ray II, BTS ? (Prof. X is/was keeping telepathic tabs on him) 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (15-19) 
Wolverine 
Nightcrawler 
Prof. X 
T-Ray II 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (20) 
T-Ray II 


Quote: 
>>>
Probably the day after X:LL (15-19). 
<<<

Probably not. One of the taunting kids' lines is "who lets you outta the basement every morning?!", implying it's been more than two mornings that he's been back at school. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (21) 
T-Ray II 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (22) 
T-Ray II 

Quote: 
>>>
Probably the day after X:LL (21). 
<<<

Or more, as his classmates have basically accepted him. On the other hand, if enough time elapsed between pp.19-20, and we were seeing the *end* of their taunting on p.20, this *could* be the day after p.21. Shrug. 

X-MEN: LIFE LESSONS (23-30) 
Cyclops 
Jean Grey 
Wolverine 
Nightcrawler 
Prof. X 
T-Ray II 
Magneto 


Quote: 
>>>
Probably the day after X:LL (22).
<<<
 
Could even be the same day, honestly. He seems to get his confidence back in the last panel of p.22. 

Again, though, for MCP purposes I recommend not breaking this issue up unless absolutely necessary. Personally I'd ignore the hard-and-fast "one month" jump and just place the entire issue in the largest gap you can find prior to X #114. 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 30 May 2005 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 30 May 2005 10:03 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Again, though, for MCP purposes I recommend not breaking this issue up unless absolutely necessary. Personally I'd ignore the hard-and-fast "one month" jump and just place the entire issue in the largest gap you can find prior to X #114.  
<<<

The issue is going to have to work around other appearances in this very saturated period. It's messy but I'm finding it difficult to avoid. 

I have pages 1-11 right after GX 75. T-Ray could have joined the team during the final days of the Massachusetts Academy. Then I cheated with the "one month" reference and made the gap between pages 11 and 12 a week long, straddling months. Then the big gap comes between pages 19 and 20. I need to place the Kang War in that gap. Pages 20-30 occur right after the Kang War wraps up. I put pages 22-30 on a single day -- the same day as ICE2 1 and right before X 114. 

Various issues of W3 and CYC are going on during this period, as is SWEET CHARITY. 

Now if T-Ray could join the X-Men a bit before GENX 75 or if I could push GENX 75 back even farther (although it's already a stretch in regard to Emma's and Chamber's chronologies), then we could avoid the whole Kang War interruption and perhaps consolidate X:LL a bit more.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2005 10:31 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The issue is going to have to work around other appearances in this very saturated period. It's messy but I'm finding it difficult to avoid. 
<<<

Well, that's on your calendar though. How well does it match up with the MCP's sequence of events for this period? 


Quote: 
>>>
if T-Ray could join the X-Men a bit before GENX 75 
<<<

He can, you know.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2005 05:44 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hmm, if we've got a one-month jump in the issue -- and the month-long Kang War dominates the gap we're playing in -- why don't we place the Kang war in that gap? As far as I can remember, that would only result in splitting "Life Lessons" in Wolverine's chronology (he appears in A3 #51) -- the issue would remain intact in everyone else's. 

Eh? 

Incidentally, Paul, I just got the hardback of W3 #20-25 -- do I still owe you an analysis of it, or did you write one yourself? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2005 09:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Hmm, if we've got a one-month jump in the issue -- and the month-long Kang War dominates the gap we're playing in -- why don't we place the Kang war in that gap?  
<<<

The thought occurred to me, too. Unfortunately, I'd have to wedge a week's worth of X:LL (pages 12-30) between the end of the Kang War and X 114, a slot now occupied by CYC, ICE2, and the end of XU 36/3. It's a heavily occupied piece of real estate on the calendar. I'm going to try to move X:LL to a place before the Kang War and before GENX 75. There may be a perfectly good reason for the X-Men to recruit T-Ray instead of sending him off to the Massachusetts Academy, but we just haven't seen that part of the story. 


Thanks, Jeph, but I have W3 20-25 covered.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 75

Posted: 06 May 2005 07:57 pm    Post subject: Doctor Doom's time machine problems; who has which one?
By Enda80

Around August and September of 2003, the issue of Doctor Doom's time machine came up on the boards. It seems that there are two main Doom time machines. 

The first was the one in his castle in the Adironacks in the US. This first appeared in FF I#5. As noted by Olshevsky in FF Index#1, X-Men I#145 revealed that this time machine was in his castle in the Adriondacks Mountains. The time machine then appears in FF I#19, still in the castle. In FF#23, it was salvaged and brought to the Baxter Building. At some point after #23 but before Avengers I#56, the time machine was returned to the Adironacks castle. However, Richards made a duplicate of it. Also, Avengers#56 coined the name "The Chrono-Square". This time machine next appeared in MSH#20, the Doom story. 

Doom, as noted by Olshevksy in Avengers Index I#7, created a duplicate of his time machine in his Latverian castle, which was first mentioned in Avengers I#137 and 139 and seen in Avengers I#140. Doom did not have one in Latveria in MSH#20, and his Adironacks castle was turned into an amusement park in MTIO#68 before he reclaimed it, so that is why they went to Latveria. This time machine in the Latverian castle next appeared in Marvel Team-Up I#41. It was used through MTU#46, then was used in MTIO#17. 

Anyway as pointed out by Don Campbell, a mix-up occurs with this time machine in his Latverian castle's fate: 

In Avengers #137, Hawkeye goes off to use Doctor Doom's time machine to go back to the 12th Century to get the Black Knight. In Avengers #139, Iron Man and Moondragon go to an abandoned castle in Latveria but find that the time machine isn't there (a footnote references "#56" as the last time the Avengers were there). In Avengers #140, just as Iron Man and Moondragon are about to leave, the time machine returns with blood on its deck but both IM and MD suspect it's a trap. In Avengers #141, Immortus helps Thor and Moondragon to travel back in time and, after repulsing an attack by Kang, they arrive in the year 1873. A flashback in Avengers #142 shows how Hawkeye, when he was ambushed by Kang, threw things "out of kilter" by fighting back, and then appeared, without the time machine, in the Old West. And finally, in Avengers #144 & 147, Thor, Moodragon, Hawkeye and the Two-Gun Kid use Kang's own time-sphere to travel to the 20th Century. 

In West Coast Avengers (vol. 2) #17, the WCA were ambushed by Dominus and sent back in time on Doctor Doom's damaged time machine which Dominus had found after searching in the desert for months and which could only travel backwards in time. And in WCA2 #18, Hawkeye identifies it as the one he used to go to the Old West (and a footnote references Avengers #142-143). However, since Kang returned THAT machine as part of his trap, we know that the machine that Dominus found COULDN'T be the same one that Hawkeye used...so where did it come from? 

Also, in every appearance that I can remember, it was only the glowing yellow square of Doom's time machine that travelled in time while the controls STAYED IN THE PRESENT. Except in WCA2 #17-23, where the controls go along with the travellers. Well, I guess it was just more damaged than anybody knew. What a lucky break for the WCA. Or maybe it was Immortus meddling somehow? 

As for the FF's time machine, it was a duplicate of Doom's original machine which Reed Richards had improved in various ways. It was destroyed by minions sent by Dominus in WCA2 #22 but Reed Richards and Henry Pym managed to repair/rebuild it in WCA2 #23. 

Don Campbell 

....................................................................................... 
Reed Richards' duplicate of Doom's machine has appeared and been used in FF I#152, G-S FF#2, MTIO#4-5. FF Annual#11 reveals how Doom had used diplomatic pressure to get his time machine back, and features another use of Reed's duplicate. 

Avengers I#56 (towards the end) and Annual#2 features an alternate Earth's version of Doom's time machine. (What If I#29 reveals that Immortus sent Janet Van Dyne to that Earth.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 May 2005 09:53 pm    
By lkseitz

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Reed Richards' duplicate of Doom's machine has appeared and been used in FF I#152, G-S FF#2, MTIO#4-5. FF Annual#11 reveals how Doom had used diplomatic pressure to get his time machine back, and features another use of Reed's duplicate. 
<<<

I believe you can add GODZILLA #20, 22, & 23 to that list. They used it to supposedly send Godzilla into Earth's past. He ended up in the company of Devil Dinosaur and Moon Boy. (A later retcon revealed Devil Dinosaur to not live in Earth's past, but on another planet, so how Doom's time machine sent him there is a mystery.) Godzilla's innate radioactivity, however, appeared to cause the time machine to bring him back after a short time.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 76

Posted: 09 May 2005 04:35 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 5/9
By ADMINISTRATOR

Here's what ships from Marvel this week: 

ARANA HEART OF THE SPIDER #4 
ASTONISHING X-MEN #10 
CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON #14 
DISTRICT X #13 
EXCALIBUR #13 
FANTASTIC FOUR #526 
GAMBIT #10 
MARVEL ADVENTURES SPIDER-MAN #3 
MARVEL NEMESIS IMPERFECTS #1 
MARVEL TEAM-UP #8 
MARY JANE HOMECOMING #3 
PUNISHER #21 
PUNISHER CELL 
TALES OF THE THING #3 
ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #77 
X-MEN THE END HEROES AND MARTYRS #3 

In news, Marvel announces that: 

Fantastic Four #527 will ship with two covers, in a 1:1 ratio. 

Marvel Must Haves: Nyx 1-3 is 80 pages, not 96 pages. 

The variant cover to New Avengers #7 will be drawn by Neal Adams, not Dave Cockrum. 

The variant cover to New Avengers #9 will be drawn by Herb Trimpe, not Marie Severin. 

The page count for Captain America by Jack Kirby: Bicentennial Battles has changed from 184 to 176. 


watching: huckleberry hound

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2005 09:43 pm    
By lkseitz

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
The variant cover to New Avengers #9 will be drawn by Herb Trimpe, not Marie Severin. 
<<<

Not to diss Marie Severin, but cool! It's been a while since Herb Trimpe drew something for Marvel, hasn't it?
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2005 10:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm happy for him. The nineties were a tough period for him. It was a sad story, for a while. 


watching: showbiz tonight

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Thread 77

Posted: 09 May 2005 09:28 pm    Post subject: Marvel Super Heroes: The Ultimate Science Exhibition
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Last week I attended a conference in which a museum exhibition design firm -- Yellowbrick-Holman Exhibitions Inc. -- had a booth with a three-dimensional model of a new, treaveling science exhibition being developed by them and the Ontario Science Centre. Titled "Marvel Super Heroes: The Ultimate Science Exhibition," the interactive exhibit examines scientific principles through the use of Marvel characters. Yellowbrick-Holman bought the exclusive exhibition rights for Marvel's 4,700+ characters for the next five years. The use of Marvel characters promises to make learning fun and certainly will provide a draw for large audiences. They told me the premiere venue for the show will be at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry in 2006. 

I have the brochure for the two-story, 6000-9000-square-foot exhibition. There'll be displays that use: Spider-Man to explore the science of spider webs; Hulk to explore facial expressions and skin pigmentation; Magneto to explore the electromagnetic spectrum; Storm to explore the science of weather; Dr. Octopus to explore bionics, muscles, and protheses; Daredevil to explore the senses; and Iron Man to explore exo-skeletons. Wolverine and Elektra will also have displays. The promotional brochure also pictures Invisible Woman, Thing, and Captain America. 

Who knows? Maybe there'll issue a giveaway comic in conjunction with the show.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 May 2005 12:55 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Finally: a REAL reason to learn science!  

Sounds cool, Paul. I wouldn't mind seeing that exhibit. I wonder if they'll go on tour and stop here in Missouri... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 78

Posted: 14 May 2005 10:42 pm    Post subject: Cap#255 question; Jameson in it?
By Enda80

Is Jameson in Cap#255? Online sources indicate he was. Perhaps they met #215, another fb issue?

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Thread 79

Posted: 16 May 2005 06:11 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 5/16
By ADMINISTRATOR

These books ship from Marvel this week: 

BLACK PANTHER #4 
CABLE DEADPOOL #15 
DAREDEVIL #73 
EXILES #64 
HERCULES #2 
LIVEWIRES #4 
MARVEL KNIGHTS 4 #18 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #14 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #8 
NEW X-MEN #14 
OFFICIAL HANDBOOK MARVEL UNIVERSE TEAMS 
SPIDER-MAN BREAKOUT #2 
SPIDER-MAN HUMAN TORCH #4 
TOXIN #2 
ULTIMATE X-MEN #59 
UNCANNY X-MEN #459 
WOLVERINE #28 
YOUNG AVENGERS #4 

Marvel announces that the Sentry story arc originally scheduled for New Avengers #7-9 has been extended to issue 10. 


watching: cops

Last edited by Administrator on 16 May 2005 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Thread 80

Posted: 26 May 2005 07:34 pm    Post subject: Crimson Dyamo note
By Enda80

The issue of topicality came up with the Crimson Dynamo series. It is interesting to note that many 1970's UK Marvel reprints changed the Soviet Union to the fictional country of Bodavia. In fact, Bodavia was also used for pre-1965 reprints as well. This seems to include the Dynamo as well.
