	Marvel Universe Forum
1. "Eight years" since Captain America #153-155
2. ASM 515
3. Rebuilt High Evolutionary chronology
4. MTU3 / Avengers placement
5. Cap Sent Liberty#1 take place in 2001?
6. Fury in Marvels#1
7. Ka-Zar GN
8. question about Red Wizard from Ka-zar 1 and 2
9. X-Men Unlimited v2 #9
10. Lords of light and darkness (M/TU@ 1) timeline problem
11. Captain Britain
12. Sinister Six help needed
13. Luke Cage characters
14. Jessica Jones' pregnancy (spoilers)
15. Gravity #1
16. Belasco question; do you consider his origin...
17. ReLoad X-chronology - version 3.0!
18. Not-really-new Steve Rogers - William Naslund stuff
19. Maxon Red Skull question
20. The canonicity of giveaway books
21. Powerless
22. Post-House of M continuity: calendar clues
23. Stick as the boy in Wolverine#113? Probably not....
24. Marvel Adventures Could be Canon?
25. Strange Tales 120 question
26. Is Pussycat canon?
27. UX 300-FB problem
28. Sentry/X-Men-FB
29. Dazzler: The Movie Graphic Novel
30. Franklin Richards
31. Manipulator correction
32. The Petrified Man
33. Lectronn; how do you list Marvel Age?
34. Wolverine story missing from chronology
35. Earth 616?
36. Marvel UK Ant-Man/Hulk stories online
37. Femizons membership questions
38. Moondragon issues
39. Daredevil: Redemption
40. Hyperions in Exiles #64-65
41. Iron Fist characters
42. 1602

	Issue Analysis Forum
43. What If vol.2 #6, 24, 43 and 59
44. Chronology Review for Hulk #77-81!
45. Captain America Comics #1
46. TALES TO ASTONISH 90/2-94/2 (Hulk stories)
47. X-Men: Prelude To Perdition no.1 (Cover: Mutant Apocalypse)
48. Wolverine: Son Of Canada no.1
49. Wolverine: In Global Jeapordy no.1
50. Uncanny X-Men At The State Fair Of Texas
51. Wolverine Halloween Special no.1
52. Europa
53. TrashMasters For NYC School Kids Grades 4 To 6 no.1
54. Spider-Man, Storm, and Power Man (or Cage), you decide?
55. TALES TO ASTONISH 95/2 - 101 (Hulk stories)
56. CFA: BP3 44
57. Exiles #46-48
58. Chronology Review for Punisher MAX #13-18:
59. Wild C.A.T.S./X-Men: The Silver Age

	Chat Forum
60. Paul O'Brien: Your Index review of UX 60
61. Marvel Year In Review: 1961 and 1962
62. Shipping this week: 6/8
63. Cage = Ace of Spades???
64. Shipping this week: 6/13
65. Marvel Writer/Artist Exclusives...
66. The Thing
67. House of M
68. Coming from Marvel in September
69. Sticking a toe in the analysis waters...
70. Kang's POV    




Thread 1

Posted: 01 Jun 2005 05:03 pm    Post subject: "Eight years" since Captain America #153-155
By Ron Flick

The preview for Captain America #7 is online and in it, Jack Monroe/Nomad says he has been revived for 8 years. 

http://www.buzzscope.com/reviews.php?id=4376 

How does that fit with everything else? 

Just curious 

Ron Flick

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 05:19 pm    
By Somebody

Depends - what else was published around that time? Doesn't sound hugely far off what it "should" be to me though, without checking.

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 07:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jack Monroe said, referring to CA 155-FB: 
Quote: 
Was that really eight years ago? 


CA 155 was published 33 years ago, and by my calculations, it was 17 years ago "Marvel time," so eight years sounds about right when that infamous Marvel time compression is applied... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 07:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
CA 155 was published 33 years ago, and by my calculations, it was 17 years ago "Marvel time," so eight years sounds about right when that infamous Marvel time compression is applied...  
<<<

I've long contended that Marvel time passes at the rate of 1 year for every four of ours, so 33 -> 8, sounds right on the money. 


watching: entertainment news

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 09:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just try cramming the last 33 years of Marvel comics into eight years...I dare ya. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 11:07 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I always thought it was 3 Real Years = 1 Marvel Year myself... 

Problem is, the amount of story output in the last few years has grown, so that it's really more along the line of 2 Real Years = 1 Marvel Year...for me, this started in the early 90's, when we had 3 Punisher titles, 5 Spiderman titles, a Bazilion Xmen titles, (half of which starred Wolverine). With that many appearances by star characters, it's hard from a continuity stand point to fit so many appearances in 1 Marvel Year...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Jun 2005 05:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Personally, I take all of these things with a pinch of salt. My impression is that writers and editors alike approach these things in the same way: when they need to give an indication of the passing of time, beyond "yesterday" or "last week", they just pick something that feels instinctively right. So I treat it all as pure artistic licence, rather than trying to make any of it literally work.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Jun 2005 06:19 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, it's hard to imagine eight years since CA 153-156 when it's been "six months" (we're told time after time) just since Disassembled!
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 2

Posted: 28 May 2005 02:05 pm    Post subject: ASM 515
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Attempting to make sense of Spider-Man continuity, I come to ASM 515. It looks to me like this issue requires a whopping great gap to be spliced into it. 

The story opens Peter arriving at work. His narration says that "It's been two days since Gwen's kids disappeared without a trace" in the previous issue. A footnote also tells us that "Sins Remembered" hasn't started yet. 

Now, ASM 515 is the first part of "Skin Deep", which ends with Peter and May's homes being destroyed and leads into Spider-Man, May and MJ moving into Avengers Tower. But in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #23 - the first part of Sins Past - Peter and MJ aren't in the Tower. To be honest, it's not 100% clear where they are, but the decor doesn't look luxurious enough for the Tower, and you can see other buildings at the same level out the window (the Avengers live on the top three stories of the Tower, which is the tallest building in the area). 

So either "Sins Remembered" either takes place after they move into a new flat, or the whole of "Sins Remembered" has to be spliced somewhere into "Skin Deep." 

Returning to ASM 515: in pages 1 to 10, Peter meets Charlie Wiederman, who has dropped by to talk to him. Wiederman explains what he's been working on lately. He has a job interview with Tony Stark, and asks Peter for a reference. Peter equivocates: "I don't know... I'm not sure Stark even knows who I am... I'm small time." Eventually Peter agrees to look at Charlie's notes, and Charlie says he'll send them over. End of scene. 

Pages 11 to 15 are a flashback at school. 

Page 16 to page 17 panel 4 are Charlie's interview with Tony Stark. Stark notes the letters of recommendation from Peter, and takes them seriously because he knows Peter is Spider-Man. So we've passed the opening arc in NEW AVENGERS by this point. Anyhow, Stark gives the go-ahead. 

Page 17 panel 5 and the whole of page 18 are a montage sequence which boils down to "Charlie gets on with his work, and Peter goes about his business." And then the story picks up again with page 19. 

It seems to me that there are two viable gaps in here - one between pages 10 and 16 (since no timescale is given), and one in the gap represented by page 18. From Peter's point of view, this is just one huge gap, because he doesn't appear in the interview scene. 

This strikes me as an ideal place to put NEW AVENGERS #1-6, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #23-27, and SPIDER-MAN: BREAKOUT. And, come to think of it, all of MARVEL TEAM-UP thus far as well, since Peter and Mary Jane are shown in their usual flat in MTU3 7.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 06:50 am    
By PeteD

I was going to start a thread if I couldn't find the answer, but your comments have acted as an introduction: 

Spider-Man is a name that I don't see as often in the discussions as I would have thought, allowing for the number of stories on offer in any month. 

My question: Do you guys have a good Spider-Man chronology assembled or are you struggling to tie it all together? 

Peter.

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 08:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

For the most part, the Spider-Man books haven't been all THAT hard to fit together over the last few years, if only because they never acknowledge one another, so there are virtually no fiddly references to fit together. And outside AMAZING, nothing of importance happens, period. 

However, that seems to be changing over the last few months, so it's going to become more of an issue.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 07:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
This strikes me as an ideal place to put NEW AVENGERS #1-6, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #23-27, and SPIDER-MAN: BREAKOUT. And, come to think of it, all of MARVEL TEAM-UP thus far as well, since Peter and Mary Jane are shown in their usual flat in MTU3 7. 
<<<

Definitely. I have a big whopping gap of about nine months between pages 15 and 16 of ASM 515. Then a smaller gap between panels 4 and 5 of page 17. I've placed the following Spidey-related books between page 15 and page 17, panel 5, not in chronological order: 

Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Out of Reach #1-5 
Spider-Man Unlimited vol. 2 #3-9 
Spectacular Spider-Man vol. 2 #11-27 
Marvel Knights Spider-Man #1-12 
Venom Vs. Carnage #1-4 
Marvel Team-Up vol. 3 #1-9 
Toxin #1-2+ 
Spider-Man: Breakout #1-2+ 


Quote: 
>>>
For the most part, the Spider-Man books haven't been all THAT hard to fit together over the last few years 
<<<

I beg to differ. Granted, it's not as thorny as Bendis' stuff or the X-Men Reload stuff, but it's been no picnic either.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 10:20 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I've placed the following Spidey-related books between page 15 and page 17, panel 5, not in chronological order: 

Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Out of Reach #1-5 
<<<

Is there any particular reason why this needs to be slotted here rather than earlier in Spidey's chronology? 

-Sean

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Posted: 02 Jun 2005 06:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I probably had one when I first slotted the series where it is on the calendar, but since then some other Spidey stories shifted around. It's quite possible this needs to be notched back a little, as long as it's after ASM 501, since Peter and M.J. are back together. Two other clues...Peter mentions that he tutored Fontaine last year at Midtown High; this indicates that Peter has been teaching for at least a year -- that's not a problem. The big clue for calendar placement is that it's M.J.'s birthday in issue #1, so this story must occur the same calendar day as PPTSS @ 9/3 (1-10)...which I haven't placed yet.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Jun 2005 03:24 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Peter mentions that he tutored Fontaine last year at Midtown High; this indicates that Peter has been teaching for at least a year -- that's not a problem. 
<<<

It doesn't necessarily even indicate that; he could be referring to the last academic year. If he tutored Fontaine late in the spring semester, the story could still occur early in the fall semester. He could also be referring to the calendar year; if he tutored him in, say, November, then the story could still occur early in the next year. 

-Sean

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Posted: 02 Jun 2005 07:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, could be a spring semester referring to last semester (fall of last calendar year) or it could be fall semester referring to last semester (spring of last academic year). It doesn't really help with placement, though, in this case, as Peter has been teaching for quite some time by the time of Out of Reach, based on other clues such as Peter and M.J. being back together.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 3

Posted: 23 May 2005 09:50 pm    Post subject: Rebuilt High Evolutionary chronology
By shandrakor

Going through my TTA analyses, I got stuck on the fact that the High Evolutionarys chronology, at least near the beginning, was all screwed up. Ive gone through and I think figured out where everything belongs. Here are first, my notes on placement, and then the revised chronology entry for him. I apologize for the quality of my notes, especially as they degrade in quality as I got further along and just wanted to be done with it. 

There is one previous thread on this subject, here, but its a year old and didnt actually solve the problem. Hope what Ive got does the trick. Let me know if you need anything else. 

~J. Darien Riffe 

----- 

X-FACTOR ANNUAL #3/3 
Herbert Edgar Wyndham is a young man in 1928, still early in his experiments with genetic alteration. A mysterious figure provides him documents to greatly accelerate his research. 

NOTE: This, and the other Evolutionary War backup stories are not Flashback stories, they are stories set in the past. There is no framing sequence to be a flashback from. 

PUNISHER ANNUAL #1/3 
Wyndham is still a student in 1930, using the schools resources to further his own research. When he tries to convince the faculty of what hes doing, he is laughed at and then expelled for losing his temper. Months later, he performs his first successful evolution, on a Dalmatian, which quickly escapes and is shot by a hunter. He soon moves into the country home of Jonathon Drew, in the foothills of Wundagore Mountain. 

SILVER SURFER ANNUAL #1/4 
Wyndham and Drew find uranium on the land. They spend the wealth designing and building a fabulous research lab which doubles as a spaceship. The mysterious figure appears again and provides Wyndham with sub-humans to use as laborers in construction. 

AVENGERS #187-FB (11p3) 
Wyndham and Drew are shown during the construction of the laboratory on Wundagore. 

NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL #4/3 
Jonathon Drews daughter, Jessica, falls ill from radiation poisoning. They inject her with Drews spider-extract and place her in stasis. Drews wife leaves, angry and distraught, and when she doesnt return, they find her body, mauled by a beast-man of some sort. 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #21/3 
At the next full moon, Wyndham is attacked by the werewolf, but it flees as the sun begins to rise. He learns that Drew has returned to America, leaving the citadel and his comatose daughter in Wyndhams care. He constructs the High Evolutionary armor, then fights and captures the werewolf. Because one of them was killed, the sub-humans abandon Wyndham forever. 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #22/3-FB 
Wyndham learns that the beast man is actually a werewolf, and offers to help restrain him during the full moons in exchange for the opportunity to study him. 

SCARLET SPIDER UNLIMITED #1-FB (29) 
Professor Miles Warren is apparently Wyndhams assistant at this time, and his research skews High Evolutionarys work towards creating more human looking New Men. This leads to the creation of Porga and Tagar. This reads as a huge retcon. Good job on the spider clone saga for throwing retcons at retcons (at perhaps another layer of retcons) all in the spirit of clarification 

AVENGERS #186-FB (2p2) 
Wyndham evolves a cow into humanoid form and names her Bova. 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #22/3 
Wyndham creates Bova and then meets up with Magnus, who has taken the form of Jonathon Drew. Magnus warns Wyndham that the demon Chthon is buried beneath the citadel, and that they must leave immediately. Wyndham, being a man of science, laughs off the talk of magic and refuses to leave. 

AVENGERS #186-FB (2p3) 
Jonathon Drew returns to the citadel, and returns to work with Wyndham. Busy with his work, Wyndham leaves to Bova the job of caring for the young New Men. 

SCARLET SPIDER UNLIMITED #1-FB (30p1-30p3) 
The High Evolutionary doesnt approve of Warrens desire to create perfect humans, and banishes him from Wundagore. A faction of New Men follow Warren. 

AVENGERS #187-FB (11p4) 
The New Men are taught chivalry by Magnus. 

THOR #179-FB 
The same moment as Thors origin in JIM 83. Odin, looking for a place to drop off Donald Blakes body, observes the High Evolutionary training his New Men to one day become Knights of Wundagore. (incorrectly listed as T 178-FB previously) 

INCREDIBLE HULK #149-FB 
High Evolutionary creates the Inheritor, who refuses to follow the code that is laid down for them, so he is banished into space. This could fit anywhere before T 134, but it seems like it would fit best during the 10 year gap when High Evolutionary is making most of the New Men. 

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL #12/3 
A decade passes, with High Evolutionary creating New Men, and Magnus training them as the Knights of Wundagore. Magda arrives and goes into labor. As she is giving birth, Chthon attacks, distracting Magnus and Knights long enough to place his influence upon the infant Scarlet Witch. 

WEB OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #4/3 
The next morning, High Evolutionary counts the dead when Bova explains that Magda has vanished and abandoned her babies. High Evolutionary has Mr. and Mrs. Frank brought up from the village. He has Bova drug Mrs. Frank during the birth so that she doesnt know how many babies she delivers, but Mrs. Frank ends up dying during labor, and her own baby is stillborn. Instead of accepting the twins as his own, Mr. Frank flees, unable to deal with the death of his wife. Jessica recovers from her coma, and High Evolutionary gives the twins away to a gypsy couple. 

AVENGERS #186-FB (3p3-3p4) 
Bova brings the abandoned infants Pietro and Wanda before High Evolutionary. He summons a couple from the village to adopt the children. When the wife dies and the husband flees the area, High Evolutionary gives the infants to a gypsy couple. 

GIANT SIZED AVENGERS #1-FB 
Mr. and Mrs. Frank live in the High Evolutionarys citadel while Mrs. Frank gives birth. After the birth, Bova presents Wanda and Pietro to Mr. Frank as if they were his own children. 

THOR #134, 135 
Some Thor stuff happens, and then High Evolutionary and his New Men fly the citadel off into space looking for a new home. 

WEST COAST AVENGERS ANNUAL #3/3 
Bova and Jessica Drew stay behind as the citadel flies away. On the new world, High Evolutionary creates wives for all the New Men, and leaves them to govern themselves as he pursues his own work. The New Men revert to their bestial selves, and High Evolutionary sends to earth in the hopes of finding a way to halt their revolution. 

TALES TO ASTONISH 94/2-96/2 
Hulk is kidnapped to assist High Evolutionary, ending with the Evolutionary being evolved to godhood. 

WEST COAST AVENGERS ANNUAL #3/3 
Retells the ascension part of TTA 96/2 

PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #8/3 
Retells, in brief, High Evolutionarys appearances in M/PRM 1-2, FF 175 and M/TIO 62-FB. Absolutely nothing new is provided. I dont think this issue qualifies as new material, and shouldnt be listed in his MCP entry. I know there will be posters in the future complaining that its missing from his entry, but my opinion is that it doesnt belong. 

INCREDIBLE HULK #266-FB (10) 
Tells the story of Counter-Earth being stolen from M/TIO 62, 63. No new material provided at all, again removed from the entry. 

AVENGERS ANNUAL #17/2 
Recaps M/TIO 62-63 and H2 266. Brief new material following H2 266. 

SCARLET SPIDER UNLIMITED #1-FB (34p1-34p2) 
After having evolved to godhood and then devolved back to man, High Evolutionary returns to Wundagore to find the remaining New Men worshipping the Jackal. He restores himself as their master, but a few splinter off to form the Cult of the Jackal. 

SCARLET SPIDER UNLIMITED #1-FB (34p5-35p6) 
Shortly after the Jackals death in ASM 149. High Evolutionary learns of the cult, disapproves of their memorial service for Jackal, and vows to discredit the cult. 

SCARLET SPIDER UNLIMITED #1-FB (36p4) 
Between PPTSSM@ 8 and A@ 17 in the Evolutionary War. High Evolutionary returns to his New Men and reveals that Jackal hadnt made clones, but only transformed existing people. Much of the Cult of the Jackal loses their faith. 

Finally, I removed an entry for XF@ 3-FB. I looked through this issue backwards and forwards and the only FB I found was from the mutant sub-humans POV and featured no High Evolutionary. If someone can point out what I was missing, we can figure out where it belongs. 

Oh, also. The Alf annual appearances? I don't have access to that book, so I don't know what's going on there, but those are actually cannon? 

----- 

Here is the revised chronology through the Evolutionary War. There were so many changes at the beginning that marking them just wasnt worth the effort. 

XF@ 3/3 
PUN@ 1/3 
SS@ 1/4 
A 187-FB 
NM@ 4/3 
FF@ 21/3 
ASM@ 22/3-FB 
ASM@ 22/3 ~ A 186-FB 
SSU 1-FB 
A 187-FB 
T 479-FB 
H2 149-FB 
UX@ 12/3 
WOSM@ 4/3 ~ A 186-FB ~ GSA 1-FB 
{T 134} 
T 135 
TTA 94/2-FB 
WCA@ 3/3 
TTA 94/2-FB 
WCA@ 3/3 
TTA 94/2-FB 
TTA 94/2 
TTA 95/2 
TTA 96/2 
TTA 96/2 ~ WCA@ 3/3 
M/PRM 1 
M/PRM 2 

~ 

M/TIO 62 
M/TIO 63 
** 
H2 266-FB 
H2 266 
**A@ 17/2 
SSU 1-FB 
XF@ 3 

~ 

ALF@ 1/5 
ALF@ 1/6 
PPTSS@ 8 
**SSU 1-FB 
A@ 17

Last edited by shandrakor on 31 Aug 2005 01:26 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Posted: 23 May 2005 09:58 pm    
By Enda80

Quick question; Centurius' master edition entry said he was at that conference in Geneva.....but I did not see him there. Was there a brown-skinned man there that I missed? 

http://www.unfluffybunny.com/cripp12/12/th_centuriusback.jpg

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Posted: 23 May 2005 10:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Looks good at first pass, Shandrakor ... but up top, do you mean X-Factor Annual #3/3? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2005 10:10 pm    
By shandrakor

Identified by name at the conference are Wladyslav Shinsky, Arnim Zola and Jonathon Drew. No figures who actually recieve coloring are colored as having dark skin. 

Here's a forest for the trees question: I just realized I have no idea who the mysterious figure who provides the genetic notes and sub-human servants to Wyndham is. Is that established anywhere?

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Posted: 23 May 2005 10:13 pm    
By shandrakor

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Looks good at first pass, Shandrakor ... but up top, do you mean X-Factor Annual #3/3? 
<<<

Yes, yes I do. For some reason XF always makes me think X-Force, even when I'm staring at a copy of Factor. Will edit to fix.

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Posted: 23 May 2005 10:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I have no idea who the mysterious figure who provides the genetic notes and sub-human servants to Wyndham is. Is that established anywhere? 
<<<

I've heard that it was intended (or retconned) to be Mr. Sinister, but I can't recall whether there's any substance to that. Maybe a quick skim of their interaction in UX #379-380 and X #99 will shed some light. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2005 10:29 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I believe it would best be stated as, "It's a theory..." 

And if memory serves, you and Enda80 had a discussion about this, a year or so ago. 


watching: cold case

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Posted: 23 May 2005 10:37 pm    
By shandrakor

Well, in X 99, we've got "It's clear to me that nothing has changed in the long years since our first meeting" Unfortunately, it's also implied that Wyndham may have known Essex as Essex in the early days. 

Admin is right, we've got nothing more than "good theory," here, nothing explicit. Sinister's the only one that makes sense with genetics during that period, but how would he have had control over a group of sub-humans?

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Posted: 24 May 2005 03:45 am    
By Enda80

The recent Fantastic Four Encyclopedia says it was Phaeder, the father of Maelstrom, under the High Evolutionary's entry. Considering that this stranger was freakishly stall, that makes sense. It makes even more sense that Phaeder had access to Moloids, as the Deviants created the Moloids*, and Phaeder lived with the Deviants. 

Take a look: 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/phaedr.htm 


Notice how much taller Phaeder looks compared to Maelstrom. Notice that Maelstrom was 8'2! Notice how tall the stranger was. 

http://www.unfluffybunny.com/cripp12/17/th_maelstromback.jpg 


*The creation of the Moloids by the Deviants can be seen in both Doctor Strange III#26/2 and in Avengers Annual#20/2.

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Posted: 24 May 2005 07:42 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
Take a look: 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/phaedr.htm 
 


The source you're citing does not say that with the authority you're presenting here. They're saying it's likely that Gruenwald intended this. That makes it a...theory. 

This brings up another point that I've been wanting to address for a long time. Just because the Appendix (or any other site) says it, doesn't make it so. The Appendix itself makes a point to recommend the MCP as a starting point, but it requires that its contributors go to the books themselves to verify, before suggesting changes. That strikes us as a very reasonable policy, and I'm sure the Appendix wouldn't object to other reference sites looking at them the same way. 

The Appendix is not a source. It's just a resource. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 24 May 2005 08:55 am    
By Enda80

I was not citing the Appendix as a source. I cited the Fantastic Four Encyclopedia as a source. The FF Encyclopedia was professionally published. 

On the other hand, off hand I know of no source which confirms this 
RED GUARDIAN/See Red Skull II 

(Yes, I know Cap@13 shows the Nazi Red Skull reading about Stalin's meeting with the Red Guardian in 1945 in the Communist Red Skull's diary, but Malik could have know about that via declassified intelligence reports, or Stalin could have told Malenkov later, somebody was in the room with Stalin and the Red Guardian.) 

I only pointed to the Appendix because I anticipated that many some people might wonder as to who Phaeder was, and I did not feel up to writing much about him.

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Posted: 24 May 2005 10:02 am    
By shandrakor

Also from the Appendix: 

>>>
Mr. Sinister is also a popular candidate for this role, but it is unlikely he would take such a keen interest in the High Evolutionary's life at that time. 
<<<

Since more current stories (X 99, UX 380) indicate that at a bare minimum, Essex was interested in Wyndham during this period, there simply isn't enough evidence to argue the mysterious stranger as being either one or the other. 

Unfortunately, since Mr. Gruenwald has left us, we're never going to know for certain who he intended the character to be, and we'll have to wait for some other writer to explicitly retcon the identity before sticking these apperances in anyone's chronology.

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Posted: 25 May 2005 04:25 pm    
By shandrakor

So, if we're done debating the identity of the mysterious benefactor, back to the original point. Any problems people see with this chronology?

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Posted: 25 May 2005 04:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Some unsolicited advice: Don't prompt for corrections when seeking validation. 

Surely, you're not expecting the other 192 members of the forum to post, saying, "Nope, I don't see any problems." And yet, no one person, or group of people, can speak for the other 191. If anyone sees a problem, trust me: you'll hear from them. 

It may seem contrary to common sense, but in the forums here, "no response" is usually a good sign, the validation you may be seeking. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 25 May 2005 09:32 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, so it seems we have an "official" answer from the FF Encyclopedia: the benefactor was Phaeder. 

And yet, this weeks' Excalibur v3 #14 reveals that Mr. Sinister was posing as the Evolutionary's assistant ... "even as his [the Evolutionary's] work was based off Nathaniel Essex's." (And of course, Essex IS Mr. Sinister.) 

I didn't give XCAL3 14 a thorough reading, I just skimmed it in-store -- so is any more detail given here? WAS Sinister just retconned into being the Evolutionary's benefactor? Or should we rationalize that Phaeder gave the Evolutionary some of Essex's work? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 May 2005 10:12 pm    
By shandrakor

Having not read Excalibur 14 yet either, here's my thought. The comments in X 99 indicated that the Evolutionary had also learned a great deal from studying books or papers written by "Professor Essex" 

Depending on who delivered the line that you're quoting, it's entirely possible that most people are unaware of the benefactor's "cheat sheet" that Wyndham got, and assumed that his research was based entirely off of Essex's publications.

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Posted: 25 May 2005 10:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Sinister himself quoted the line -- and apparently he was there to know. 

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was a combination of Phaeder's gift and Essex's notes that got the Evolutionary on his way -- and that Sinister was overstating his own importance. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 May 2005 11:41 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And yet, this weeks' Excalibur v3 #14 reveals that Mr. Sinister was posing as the Evolutionary's assistant ... "even as his [the Evolutionary's] work was based off Nathaniel Essex's." (And of course, Essex IS Mr. Sinister.) 
<<<

I don't have XCAL3 14, but depending on the context of the quote, this could be a reference to UX 378-379 & X 99 rather than to the Evolutionary's origin, as a disguised Sinister was assisting him in those issues. Given that Claremont ghost-wrote at least part of that arc, a reference to that story in another one of his books isn't unlikely. 

-Sean

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Posted: 26 May 2005 09:21 am    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Okay, so it seems we have an "official" answer from the FF Encyclopedia: the benefactor was Phaeder. 

And yet, this weeks' Excalibur v3 #14 reveals that Mr. Sinister was posing as the Evolutionary's assistant ... "even as his [the Evolutionary's] work was based off Nathaniel Essex's." (And of course, Essex IS Mr. Sinister.) 

I didn't give XCAL3 14 a thorough reading, I just skimmed it in-store -- so is any more detail given here? WAS Sinister just retconned into being the Evolutionary's benefactor? Or should we rationalize that Phaeder gave the Evolutionary some of Essex's work? 
<<<

Not having read it at all, if they contradict each other, go with the comic, rather than the Enc. If they can be made to fit without a hammer and chisel, do so.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2005 10:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, standard rules apply here. The comic itself always overrules any official reference book. They can fill gaps, but they're always subject to being overridden at a later date. 

It is, of course, entirely possible that the Evolutionary could have had more than one beneficiary and drawn on more than one source. If XCAL3 14 - which I haven't read yet - merely says that the Evolutionary's work "was based off Nathaniel Essex's", that doesn't imply that Essex had a major hand in the Evolutionary's career. It could simply mean that the Evolutionary had read some of Essex's papers and was inspired by some of the ideas.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 May 2005 01:55 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Now that I've actually read XCAL3 14, it's apparent that this is basically an extended dream scene. While it's certainly being hinted that some of this may be true, large chunks of it clearly aren't. I don't think there's any compelling reason to take any of it literally. At best, it's circumstantial evidence that certain things might be true.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 May 2005 05:27 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'd love to take it as a dream sequence as well. It's a HUGE stretch to think that Prof. X served with both Carmen Pryde and Logan in the war, then promptly forgot about that fact when meeting them "again" years later. 

Seriously. Prof. X and Logan meeting each other years ago? That's so close to fanfiction it's scary. 

That said -- it's not a "dream sequence" as much as it is a walk through Prof. X's memories, affected by both Dr. Strange's magic and the Scarlet Witch's powers. The memories we see shouldn't be taken literally -- after all, we see Cyclops playing the part of a CIA agent, and HOPEFULLY Logan's appearance is just a stand-in for someone from Charley's platoon -- but I'd say the general flow of events is true. 

And when Gabrielle Haller shows up in the sequence, for example, she makes statements that imply that it's really her -- drawn there through a combination of magic and telepathy. I think the same is true of Sinister -- meaning that his statements could be taken literally. (And although the dream-FBs probably shouldn't be counted as canon FBs, there are some more literal-looking FBs hovering around Sinister on one page that retroactively insert him at various events -- such as Bova presenting the infant Wanda and Pietro to the Evolutionary.) 

That said -- nothing here really contradicts what we've seen before. The scenario is simple: Phaeder gave the Evolutionary some of Essex's work, and Essex himself took a job as his assistant to watch what the Evolutionary did with that work. No "hammer and chisel" needed at all. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 May 2005 03:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Gabrielle makes statements that imply it MIGHT be her, but then again it might not. The whole thing is deliberately vague and, in parts, obviously inaccurate. I'm not inclined to place any particular weight on the rest without more concrete evidence, although undoubtedly what we see in this issue at least supports the idea that some of this might be true.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 May 2005 08:31 pm    
By Somebody

Having seen it now, I think the "present-day" stuff with Haller, Sinister and (especially) Magneto are meant to be Xavier telepathically conversing with the real people, but the other bits (including the Wolverine bit (tg), as shown by Cyclops standing in for a CIA officer later) are either completely apocryphal, or at most, representations of real events which actually involved people other than those depicted in the roles.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2005 06:23 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, Carmen Pryde can't possibly be there, since otherwise they'd have recognised one another when they met during the Dark Phoenix Saga. As for Wolverine, he was already in black ops by this point. (Claremont revised Xavier's timeline several years ago to push Xavier's war service up past Vietnam - this is why there's now a story in which Xavier enlists to prove himself to Moira, since it's no longer historically viable for him to have been drafted.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 04 Jun 2005 02:55 pm    
By shandrakor

Edited main post to include the TTA 94/2-FBs into the chronology.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 25 May 2005 03:10 pm    Post subject: MTU3 / Avengers placement
By Paul O'Brien
Director

We've been through this before, but re-reading the story, I see that things get a little bit more garbled than I'd first thought. 

The basic question here is: Does the storyline beginning in MTU3 1 take place before or after the new Avengers are formed? Originally the answer was meant to be "yes", but the story was then revised to remove those references. Partially. The result is a somewhat confused collection of references. 

In MTU3 2, Paul Patterson (the villain) reacts to Spider-Man and Wolverine with "So is this what we're left with after the Avengers disbanded? Thor must be rolling in his grave." This is pretty much neutral. 

In MTU3 6, Spider-Man reacts to a comment from Captain America with "No love for a fellow Avenger? That's cold, Steve." This suggests very strongly that they're both in the Avengers at the moment. (Strictly speaking, Spider-Man could be referring to his very brief previous run as an Avenger - but if the Avengers are defunct at this point, then given the circumstances of their disbandment, it would be a remarkably tactless thing to bring up.) 

On the other hand, in MTU3 4, Mr Fantastic justifies his decision to basically do nothing until the FF's powers return with this dialogue: "We're not in any position to go after him at the moment -- and obviously, it's not like we can call the Avengers any more." Leaving aside the fact that it's a pretty weak justification - why can't he call Captain America or Iron Man? - this certainly suggests that the new Avengers aren't meant to be together yet. 

Depending on how NEW AVENGERS goes, the solution here may simply be that the new Avengers are together by this point, but they haven't announced it yet. That would explain why Cap and Spidey know about the new Avengers, but everyone else talks as though they don't exist. 

Oh, and by the way, in MTU3 2, Wolverine learns for the first time that Spider-Man's married. (Or at least, if it's been mentioned to him before, he's forgotten about it.) So it's definitely before Spider-Man and Mary Jane move into Avengers Tower. 

EDITED TO ADD: And one further point. Yes, I know Nick Fury is wandering around in MTU3 6, and he's been... well, suspended, demoted, something... in New Avengers. But we don't actually know what's happened to him, save that he isn't Director of SHIELD any more, and Maria Hill is filling in for him in that role. That's presumably because the story was meant to be in SECRET WAR #5, which hasn't come out yet. The only other story which has expressly referenced this plot seems to be the previous arc in PUNISHER Max, where Fury's motivation was to regain control of SHIELD. Nonetheless, even in that storyline, Fury certainly isn't out on his ear. It may simply be that Fury is demoted rather than sent home. In MTU, Fury is giving orders and is clearly an officer, but it's never actually stated that he's running SHIELD.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 04 Jun 2005 11:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
if the Avengers are defunct at this point, then given the circumstances of their disbandment, it would be a remarkably tactless thing to bring up. 

Of course, in the context of the scene ... Cap and the Black Widow just got through telling Spidey that they find him annoying, and have thought so for years. That "everybody" finds him annoying. I can see Spidey trying to toss out a quip to cover up his hurt feelings, and coming up with ... well, something remarkably tactless just like that. 

I'm still lobbying for this series to be set prior to A4 #1, simply because that's the editorial staff's admitted intent. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 5

Posted: 11 May 2005 07:37 pm    Post subject: Cap Sent Liberty#1 take place in 2001?
By Enda80

I got it today. It was published in 1998 and took place in 2001. How was this handled? 

Did late 2002 cover this on the old boards?

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2005 09:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I placed it on July 4 of Year 20 of the Calendar... 

CAPTAIN AMERICA: SENTINEL OF LIBERTY #1 
One night. This story, showing Sharon Carter in charge of SHIELD, must occur on the July 4 between CA3 31 (21-22) and CA3 45-FB (6-13). The Falcon is noted as still recovering from the Mad Thinkers cerebomb  a reference to an unpublished story. Green grass and trees. The reference to it being 2001 must be topical.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Jun 2005 11:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Was this story ever referenced anywhere else? 

I had always thought that, if a story was set in "the future" relative to its publication, it was considered to be an alternate-future story unless proven otherwise. 

If that's the case, then this issue would be non-canon. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 08:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I had always thought that, if a story was set in "the future" relative to its publication, it was considered to be an alternate-future story unless proven otherwise.  
<<<

I'm not aware of a definitive rule of thumb about that. From my perspective, there's no particular reason NOT to consider this canonical. I figured stories had the presumption of canonicity unless proven otherwise.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 08:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I think it depends on how far in the future we're talking about. If you have a story clearly labelled "Twenty years into the future," then we tend to just ignore that as an alternate future - besides which, it's not as though we're ever going to reach it. 

CAP: SOL #1 is an unusual example of a story set in the future, but so near to the present day that the writer actually caught up with it during his run on the character's principal title. Since it fits, however, I can't see any reason not to treat it as canon. In fact, wasn't part of the point of SOL #1 to deliberately drop hints about where the storyline was going, so that readers of CAPTAIN AMERICA could wonder about how it all fitted in?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 09:05 am    
By jephyork
Director

Which is why I asked "was the story referenced anywhere else?" 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 04:07 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, as I recall, it wasn't actually referenced. It just happens to fit neatly enough with stories that saw print later on in Mark Waid's run.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 06:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Except for the Mad Thinker's cerebomb, of course. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 09:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Unpublished adventure, of course.  We've had quite a number of those kinds of references in canonical stories before. No reason to hold it against this story.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 6

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 06:37 am    Post subject: Fury in Marvels#1
By Enda80

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
**MARVELS 1 
DRSTR2 50 
DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 1 
SGTF 2 
SGTF 5 
............... 

Fury is shown with a few other youths in a pre-Pearl Harbor scene. One of his eyes gets obscured by shadow, in a bit of foreshadowing. 

This precedes the origin of Fury given in SFHC#34, which shows the death of Red Hargrove (who first appeared in SFHC#7).

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 07:35 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
This precedes the origin of Fury given in SFHC#34 
<<<

And after a flashback to his childhood in ST 159. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 08:38 am    
By Somebody

Just curious, but has anyone tried to place the flashback in Livewires #2 yet, or is it too vague?

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Thread 7

Posted: 12 Apr 2005 07:30 pm    Post subject: Ka-Zar GN
By Dhall

Hey....The Ka-Zar GN is listed in the non-canon section of the faq, and yet is listed in the key as KZGN, and is in the listings for Ka-Zar, Shanna, and Zabu. 

Which is it? Canon or non-Canon?

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Posted: 12 Apr 2005 08:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It's definitely not canon. 


watching: masterminds

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Posted: 12 Apr 2005 09:15 pm    
By Dhall

Then it should be removed from the listings.... 

Ka-Zar 
UX 275 
IMSVS 2/2 
KZGN 
N 14 
N 17 
N 18 
N 21 

Shanna 
M/CP 77/2 
KZGN 
N 16 
N 17 

Zabu 
UX 274 
UX 275 
IMSVS 2/2 
KZGN 
N 14 
N 17

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Posted: 13 Apr 2005 08:27 pm    
By SeanCurtin

What about KZGN makes it non-canonical? 

-Sean

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 06:25 am    
By Selaboc

Seeing as noone else answered this question, I'll give it a go. 

There were several minor discrepencies with the canonical MU such as the name and age of Ka-zar's son and the personality reversal of Ka-zar and Shanna. But the real kicker was the existance of the second Savageland under the deserts of the American west. Ka-zar GN reveals this never before seen and never again mentioned savageland and leaves Ka-zar and Zabu there, divorced from his wife Shanna. Clearly at odds with the Waid Ka-zar run that followed years later.

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Thread 8

Posted: 07 Jun 2005 06:45 am    Post subject: question about Red Wizard from Ka-zar 1 and 2
By Selaboc

Way back in the 1970's Ka-zar series, Ka-zar and Shanna encountered a villian that went IIRC by the name Red Wizard in the first two issues of that series. At the end of the second issue, it was hinted that red wizard was a false identity and that he was really someone else. Does anyone know if it was ever revealed (and if so what issue it was revealed in) who the Red Wizard was? or any guesses as to who it was intended to be it it wasn't revealed?

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Thread 9

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 06:33 am    Post subject: X-Men Unlimited v2 #9
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's a true labor of love for an X-fan out there -- chronologically placing all the scenes from the Wolverine and Iceman stories in last weeks X-Men Unlimited v2 #9. In Logan's case, some of the flashbacks depict previously published events, and even if they don't exactly match panels in those previous comics, I'd ignore them. But other flashbacks in Logan's story depict scenes that are hard to place. Iceman's story has a bunch of flashback scenes, most of them new. One must occur before Skin's death, one after Skin's burial, and one after Graydon Creed's attack on Bobby's father; but aside from those clues, placement is a bit flexible. Other FB scenes depend on the inclusion and depiction of particular X-Men (the recurring snowball attack on Beast). 

Any takers?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 10

Posted: 07 Jun 2005 01:36 pm    Post subject: Lords of light and darkness (M/TU@ 1) timeline problem
By bmk88

Hi, 
might missed some point but I have a question concerning MTU@ 1 & MTU v1 #53 which I saw spotted at Phoenix/Jean Grey timeline between UX #101 & CX 9/2, which seems rather impossible as Jean was still in hospital, which as further in UX #102 leaving in IF #11. 
As Cyclops left to Scotland UX #104 and just after the return the team went to Shi'ar the 1st possible place for those stories is about after UX #107-108, as I found it placed on some other timeline. 
It would looked OK, but my doubts came as UX #109 seems to be taken place just after the last panel of #108. X-Men entered mansion with Lilandra, Charles greeting her here and Wolvy made some remarks about alien threads. 
I don't know Marvel Tales #262 2nd story which may give some further points but I wonder if MTU@ 1 & MTU v1 #53 (and it continuity (?) M/TALES #262/2) should be placed rather after UX #109 and before UX #110 ? 
Or even later as Moira left in the later and she's not seen in above MTU story? 
Besides the same problem is about IF #15 story showing X-Men in New York in rather free time which they seemed to use before and in the beginning of that issue? 
Any help ? 
cheers everybody, you doing great job by the way. I'm a 'greenhorn' here but hope can be of some use in future.

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 07:15 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The main concern with these issues is the presence of both Phoenix and Banshee on the X-Men roster: they never served together. I think that the official explanation later given (possibly in an Index) was that Banshee had a temporary recovery from his power loss, but I might be wrong. There's no way to fit this into continuity without a kludge. 

-Sean

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 07:32 pm    
By Somebody

I think between UXM 109 & 110 is the easiest "kludge" though - even if Phoenix isn't an official member at this point, it's between two missions she gets dragged on along, and it's easier than Banshee having a "temporary recovery".

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 09:11 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Before the discussion progresses any further, note that the original post is based on a misreading of the listings. 

Quote:
>>>
I have a question concerning MTU@ 1 & MTU v1 #53 which I saw spotted at Phoenix/Jean Grey timeline between UX #101 & CX 9/2 
<<<

Not exactly. Both the Marvel Team-Up books and CX 9/2 occur between pages of UX 101, not after. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 07:55 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Olshevsky points out in the X-MEN INDEX that this story is impossible without fudging because the roster is wrong. From memory, he gets round the problem by giving Phoenix a brief recovery and then having her relapse later.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 08:27 am    
By Somebody

Okay, I've just looked at that period and realised I completely forgot about the Warhawk issue (UXM110), where Phoenix joins the team at the end (quote, emphasis theirs - "Professor, I...I've changed my mind about leaving. I mean, for as long as you'll have me, you've got yourself another X-Man." - unquote.) . Is there any earthly reason why this story cannot go between UXM110 and UXM111, when both Phoenix and Banshee are, indeed, fully-powered X-Men?

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 10:56 am    
By bmk88

my point is just the same. 
There might be enough time to take a little trip after Warhawk 'visit'. 
Sure CX 9/2 occur between pages of UX 101, but there is no place for such a trip as in MTU@ 1 & MTU v1 #53 unless taking 'a brief recovery' which sounds (like in Banshee case) a little ... , but well anything is possible in Marvel Universe, isn't it ? 
and what about IF #15 ?

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 11:44 am    
By Somebody

bmk88 wrote: 
>>>
There might be enough time to take a little trip after Warhawk 'visit'. 
<<<

Tons of time. Firstly, there's absolutely no temporal references in UXM or CXM as to how long there is between Warhawk's visit and Mesmero snagging them (well, it must be at least a day later, given that Phoenix is shopping in the morning in the CXM story, but that only gives a minimum boundary, not a maximum). Secondly, there's a whopping great time period between Mesmero capturing them and Beast finding them anyway, so there's no demand from later stories that the specific time period here (between UXM110 and CXM17) must be short. Like I said, there's no earthly reason that I can see for it not to be here, where it seems to fit perfectly.

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Thread 11

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 02:27 pm    Post subject: Captain Britain
By ADMINISTRATOR

How does Captain Britain appear in X 25? 

Shadowcat is called away from England to comfort the terminally ill Illyana in XCAL 70. XCAL 71 is the finale to Fatal Attractions, which also runs through X 25. The problem is that Captain Britain is presumed dead, as of XCAL 68.... 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 02:28 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's an irreconcilable error, as far as I can see. I've always just ignored it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 04:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm against this course of action in general, but can the "Shadowcat is called away" scene be unhooked from XCAL #70 and be placed between pages of XCAL #66, back before CB's presumed death? 

Are there any grounds for calling Kitty's XCAL #70 scene a "flashback"? That would allow us to have the following sequence: 

XCAL #66 pp.1-? - Excalibur returns from Cloud9 and Rachel expresses her desire to return home -- but she delays a few days. 
XCAL #70-FB - Kitty is called to the X-Mansion. 
UX #303 - Illyana dies. 
XF #92, XFO #25, UX #304, X #25, W2 #75 - Fatal Attractions. CB appears in X #25. 
XCAL #66 pp.?-22 - Kitty returns to Excalibur and the team travels to the future. 
XCAL #67-71 - upon Excalibur's return trip, CB is lost in the timestream. Kitty helps the X-Men heal the Acolyte Colossus. 

Yes, yes, it's a huge stretch. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 05:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We don't actually see "the call"; it comes behind the scenes. In XCAL 70, Kitty approaches Meggan, who is mourning Captain Britain's "death", to inform her that she, Kitty, has been called away to America, because of Illyana's sickness. 

BTW, the gap in XCAL 66 is between pages 11 & 12, during which Q 54 occurs (sorry about that, David Hall).  


watching: cops

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 07:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, poop. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 10:12 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It's an irreconcilable error, as far as I can see. I've always just ignored it. 
<<<

But isn't the usual MCP policy when coming across a comic with such a glaring continuity glitch to declare the issue non-canon? Of course that's usually in the cases of miniseries and special issues, not issues that are a part of an ongoing series...and I don't think we could declare the whole series non-canon. 

Perhaps simply ignoring it IS the best route...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 10:18 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Only for one-shots or limited series. And even then, we try our best to wiggle them in before giving up. 

There's no way in heck that we'd declare X-Men #25 non-canon. At best, I'd consider a case of "Tigra syndrome" for this issue, which basically translates to "the creators messed up - he wasn't really there. Ignore his presence." 

At worst, I'd suggest that it's Meggan impersonating CB because she misses him so very much. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 09:29 am    
By Dhall

It's just an error, probably due to lack of communications. 

There's probably a fanwank for it, but essentialy it's just a mistake.

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 12:40 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
But isn't the usual MCP policy when coming across a comic with such a glaring continuity glitch to declare the issue non-canon?  
<<<

That can only arise if there's any scope for doubt about the canonicity of the book in the first place, though. And there's no conceivable way X-MEN #25 is non-canon. 

If the story is unimpeachably canon, and yet it doesn't fit, then we just have to make it fit. Usually that means identifying the error and ignoring it, although in appropriate cases it's possible that some other minor change might solve the problem while causing less damage to the story. In this case, the only problematic element of X-MEN #25 is a one-panel cameo where the creators have randomly selected Captain Britain for a role that any member of Excalibur could have performed. That's precisely the sort of thing that can just be ignored if there's no way to make it fit.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 04:21 pm    
By Somebody

Let's put it this way - you'd cause fewer canon problems by tossing out every post-Davis Excalibur v1 issue than tossing out XM25  Not really an option.

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Thread 12

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 08:01 pm    Post subject: Sinister Six help needed
By jephyork
Director

Question for any Spider-Man experts out there: when was the next time, after ASM #363, that Spider-Man faced any version of the Sinister Six? 

Thanks... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 11:41 pm    
By JLH

"Spider-Man Unlimited #9", in May 1995.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2005 06:12 am    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2005 01:26 pm    
By Somebody

Is that the Sinister Seven issue with the villains teaming up to get Kaine before he gets them?

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 12:56 am    
By JLH

Yes. With Peter wearing the Scarlet Spider costume while Ben was in jail for him, part 5 of "The Mark of Kaine", and more or less tied into "Funeral for an Octopus".

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 09:51 pm    
By Mikhail

So technically, Funeral for an Octopus was the next time. Electro, Mysterio, Vulture, and Hobgoblin gathered as the remnants of the Sinister Six. Electro even called them "the Sinister Six", only to be mocked by Scarlet.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 06:37 am    Post subject: Luke Cage characters
By jannepie

I don't know if someone has mentioned these yet but there are some missing appearances of Luke Cage characters. I'm not sure if some of these missed appearances are flashbacks so you might need to double check. 

BERNSTEIN, DR. NOAH 
*should be Burnstein 
LCHFH 7 
*LCHFH 11 
*LCHFH 12 
*LCHFH 13 
*LCHFH 15 
*PM 17 
*PM 18 
*PM 19 
*PM 20 
*PM 21 
*PM 24 
PM 28 

BIG BEN/ *Big Ben Donovan 

CLOWN/"CRAFTY" ELIOT FRANKLIN *Funny Man (in PM 24-25) 

COTTONMOUTH *Cornell Cottonmouth 

DIAMONDBACK 
*Willis Stryker 
LCHFH 1 
LCHFH 2 
CAGE 3-FB 
HFH 17-FB 

He died in LCHFH 2, so at least CAGE 3-FB comes before that. 

FOX, PHIL 
LCHFH 4 
*LCHFH 5 
LCHFH 10 
ASM 122-BTS 
LCHFH 11 
*LCHFH 12 
*LCHFH 13 
*LCHFH 16-FB 
*LCHFH 14 

GRIFFITH, D.W. 
LCHFH 10 
*LCHFH 11 
*LCHFH 12 
*PM 17 
*PM 18 
*PM 19 
*PM 21 
*PM 22 
PM 23 
PM 24 
PM 25 
PM 26 
PM 28 

LIONFANG/ *Alejandro Cortez 
*LCHFH 13 
CA 394-BTS 

MACE/GIDEON *Colonel Gideon Mace 

MR. LUCK/RAMON GARCIA *Seor Suerte, Seor Muerte, Mr. Death 

STEEPLEJACK II/MAXWELL PLUMM 
*PM 18 
MSM 14 
CA 319

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 08:43 am    Post subject: Jessica Jones' pregnancy (spoilers)
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Good news, everybody! Over at Wizardworld, Marvel have released cover art for PULSE #11, which, finally, shows a non-pregnant Jessica cradling a baby. So the end is in sight.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 10:28 am    
By JLH

Unless, of course, this is all tied in to "House of M", and her having given birth is a fantasy world, leaving her restored to pregnancy immediately following the storyline. You can always tell there's some cosmic manipulation when Wolverine is making googey faces at an infant.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 02:02 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Possible, but Spider-Man's in his normal costume - doesn't he have a different one in the HOUSE OF M universe?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 04:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think he was kidding. Pulse #10 is the HoM crossover -- not #11. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 05:22 pm    
By garbonzo

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Good news, everybody! Over at Wizardworld, Marvel have released cover art for PULSE #11, which, finally, shows a non-pregnant Jessica cradling a baby. So the end is in sight. 
<<<

Unless, of course, this is all tied in to "House of M", and her having given birth is a fantasy world, leaving her restored to pregnancy immediately following the storyline. You can always tell there's some cosmic manipulation when Wolverine is making googey faces at an infant. 
<<<

Or...after House of M Jessica wakes up never to have been pregnant and stripped of all her memories of ever being pregnant. then one day, while lounging by the pool, someone will let it slip that she was once pregnant. Then Jessica will develop never-before-seen power levels that allow her to destroy New York, kill several characters, then have the Avengers re-reform as the Not Quite Ready For Primetime Avengers. 

Nah. That could never happen...could it?

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 05:36 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

But we won't have to worry about it for another 15 years or so.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 07:53 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Actually, just looking at that cover again, something suddenly strikes me. 

That kid... bit white, isn't he?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:04 am 
By JLH

It's not uncommon for children of half-black heritage to appear more white when they're newly born. But yes, it does seem to be a goof (unless the baby's a mutant with the Doug Ramsey-level uselessness power of 'skin tone changing').

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 09:13 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

In Phili, Quesada evidently mentioned something vague about the artwork not entirely being accurate with regard to color.

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 03:20 pm    Post subject: Gravity #1
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Quick question: who's that guy the Thing is fighting in his two-panel cameo? Big muscular white guy, shoulder-length green hair, white horns from the temples, white T-shirt, green trousers. He looks strangely familiar - he's not just a random new villain, is he?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 16

Posted: 04 Jun 2005 05:34 pm    Post subject: Belasco question; do you consider his origin...
By Enda80

Do you consider Belasco's origin fallacious? I don't see it in his chronology. 

I understand that the Handbook hinted that it might serve as a fallacious account, but I disagree with their logic, which was "Second, it is impossible to believe that the pre-cataclysmic Atlantean scientists could have built a replice of Hell that resembles, in such close detail, the visions of Hell that were independently developed by the ancient Greeks, and by Christianity thousands of years later." 

It is not really a problem, that the Atlanteans had a belief in an afterlife that so closely resembled later Christian and Hades/Zeus polytheistic beliefs*. There is a very simple explanation to this. Namely gods have been known to steal from other gods. 

To accentuate this, I refer you to Punisher Annual#2, where it was revealed that the god Seth usurped the worshippers of the older god Set by fooling them into thinking he was their god. He did this by stealing many motifs from Set worship. 

While this is the most blatant example, taking a look at the gods and religions of the Thurian Age (the time before Atlantis sank) and of Conans' time the Hyborian Age, we find the following interesting parallels with later religions; 

*in Kull II#2, Kull states he will get married when Hell freezes over. This idiomatic saying indicates that the Atlanteans believed in a fiery afterlife.* 

*In Marvel Features Presents Red Sonja#4;a group of people pretended to be gorgons- complete with snakes for hair and turning people into stone. Keep in mind that Red Sonja lived thousands of years before Hercules fought Medusa in Marvel Preview#10. 

*In Conan the Barbarian#250, Conan and his friend encountered a ferryman who brought people to the afterlife in payment for a coin-an obvious parallel to Charon. Red Sonja also encountered a boatman of death in Red Sonja#14 

*In the Marvel Universe, the earliest known use of the cross was during the Hyborian Age, in worship of the god Mitra. Versions of the Mitran cross, as seen on the uniforms of soldiers in King Conan#30 and #34, exactly resembled most modern Christian crosses. Mitra worshippers even used crosses against vampires in Savage Sword of Conan#141!* 

The Hyborian Age neighbors of Conan worshipped deities called Thorr, Woden, Hoder, Balder, Ymir, et al. thousands of years before the Vikings. 

So, it is not so strange that the Atlanteans could have had a conception of the afterlife so similar to that of Christianity and pagansim of Greek antiquity. Perhaps a little notation could be put in? It was not definitevly stated that Belasco was dissembling. 

............................................................................... 
*Jesus obviously was not born until years after Atlantis sank, and you would probably be correct in presuming that Zeus and the Olympian gods did not exist in the Thurian Era. After all, Conan once encountered some time-travelling Greeks, and when one of them mentioned Zeus, Conan replied "I have never heard of any god or demon named "Zoos". Still, as explained above, Zeus and Jesus probably stole some motifs from older gods.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2005 08:07 pm    
By Jason Doty

Here's the question! In the Earth X series by Alex Ross and company it is revealed that Balasco is really Nightcrawler. Now that Marvel has put this out, do we consider this to be the origin of any Belasco from any Marvel Earth?

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2005 10:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hell no.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 02:08 pm    
By Jason Doty

Is there any evidence that supports more than one Limbo or Belasco? What I was suggesting is that the Earth X Nightcrawler is the one who becomes Belasco and that the 616 characters have interacted with. This does take care of any discrepancies about the truth about his origin.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 02:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I think you're misplacing the burden of proof. Is there any evidence that Belasco or his personal dimension is a singularity? 


watching: angel

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 04:09 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

As I understand it, EARTH X is riddled with stuff that can't possibly be made to fit with established continuity (notably its origin for the Asgardians). I don't give any weight at all to purported revelations in that series. Enough of them are plainly wrong that there's no point trying to make anything of the rest.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 04:34 pm    
By Jason Doty

Earth X's origin is that unto itself. It does crossover with other alternate universes like The Days of Future Past, and others. I'm not suggesting using flashbacks of the origins as canon material, but in the case of Nightcrawler becoming Belasco it could be resonable to presume if there is only one Limbo and one Belasco. 
Just a thought. Does anyone else think this is reasonable and help me support this theory?

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 06:56 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I can *disprove* this theory -- we see an alternate Limbo in WI2 #6. And if there IS more than one Limbo, there's probably more than one Belasco. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 07:04 pm    
By Jason Doty

I'm speaking of the Limbo that the X-Men travel to on a regular basis. The one with Belasco, Sym, Magik, ect.., not any Limbo with the same name or just a Limbo that is not named. 

Any takers for my side of this debate. The big guns are on the otherside  

On another note, other universe X-Men have travled to the Belasco's Limbo.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 07:10 pm    
By Enda80

Alternate universe N'Astirhs and Syms have been seen, so more than one Belasco Limbos exist.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 08:36 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Jason, I was TALKING about Belasco and S'ym's Limbo. Check out the thread I recently posted on Issue Analysis about the What If issue in question. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2005 06:19 am    
By Selaboc

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Is there any evidence that supports more than one Limbo or Belasco?  
<<<

Belasco comes from Earth-616 and was banished to Limbo (Ka-zar the Savage #10-12) by the elder gods. Whether or not Limbo is a singularity, Belasco isn't.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:12 pm    
By Chrisday

The Origin of Belasco, Demon sorcerer, and ruler of Limbo, villain to many versions of the X-men from many different realities, including 616, is as follows: 

In an alternate reality, the human populace of Earth was transformed unknowingly by the Terrigen mists of the Kree, by the Inhuman king, Black Bolt. In this reality, everyone had superpowers. Britains super powered team, Excalibur, consisted of Captain Britain, Meggan, Black Knight, Spitfire, and Nightcrawler. Their last mission was against the Grey Gargoyle, who turned the team to stone, Captain Britain survived, and slew the Grey Gargoyle in his rage, and Nightcrawler survived, losing his left arm and his mutation to the Grey Gargoyles curse. Nightcrawler was human, and had lost an arm. The newly mutated populace of Earth despised the look of a human in Kurt Wagner and beat him to death, an easy task once Kurt couldnt teleport and was already severely wounded. Some find this Ironic. Kurt Wagner died, and went to the realm of the dead. In this realm, people take a mirror imaged appearance of their living selves. For example, Johnny Storm who was also dead, the big 4 on his costume was reversed and his hair went to the opposite direction it did when he was alive. For Kurt Wagner, it appeared as though his right arm was missing instead of his left arm. In the realm of the dead, Kurt faced the situations he faced at the end of his life, being chased by mutants/inhumans who were disgusted with his human appearance. 

Mephisto, the lord of lies, came to the realm of the dead and collected Kurt Wagner. Mephisto changed the appearance of Kurt into the form of the demonic Belasco that we are probably all familiar with, returning his pointed tail, giving Kurt red skin, increasing his height, and giving him horns upon his head. Mephisto Brainwashed Kurt into thinking that he was the historical Belasco from the tales of Dantes inferno, who had been frozen in ice in Limbo when his sword had struck the air conditioning pipes above his head. That figure was still in Limbo, frozen in the ice. With a new appearance and new outfit and having Mephisto brainwash him Belasco/Kurt Wagner was taken directly from the realm of the dead to Limbo, thus avoiding the change in appearance from the mirror imaging effect of the realm of the dead. Kurt Wagner/Belasco still appeared as though he had lost his right arm. In Limbo, Mephisto placed Kurt Wagner/Belasco into the ice, directly in front of where the real human Belasco was still hidden in the ice. Mephisto and a pack of Dire wraiths (demonic offshoots of the skrull race sent to Limbo by the last of the spaceknights) waited. 

Soon Enough, Captain America and the reborn Captain Mar-vell child ventured to the savage land, and meet the former lord of the Savage land, Ka-zar (Kevin Plunder), and his wife, Shanna Ohara, in order to find Anti-metal deposits in Limbo. The four ventured to the Limbo doorway, in a place considered an Atlantean amusement park. Captains America and Mar-vell and Ka-zar ventured into Limbo where they encountered Mephistos Dire Wraiths. The last of the Spaceknights assisted the three in fighting the Wraiths. Mephisto appeared and showed the four that Belasco was frozen in Ice again. Mephisto produced a glowing orb, saying that it was the key to limbo. (this orb is of some significance, which I will soon describe). Mephisto tempted Steve Rogers with the orb, which he rejected, flinging the orb away, into the body of Belasco/Kurt Wagner, doing two things, firstly, giving Kurt/Belasco some of Mephistos own memories, secondly sending him back in time in limbo, where he meets Shanna Ohara for the first time and mistakes her for Beatrice, and prepares to sacrifice her to the Elder Gods. In present limbo, Captains America and Mar-vell collected their Anti-metal and departed. 

From here on, Immortus II no longer rules limbo, and is trapped in the real world. 

Now, several explanations are needed. Before the creation of Kurt Wagner/Belasco, Limbo was ruled firstly by Immortus (died in Avengers Forever #11), and later by Immortus II (who debuted in Avengers Forever #12) This is the Immortus that Belasco and Mephisto lock out of Limbo. Immortus ruled limbo from his city, depicted in several different ways (see Avengers Forever #7 to see all 3 versions) Immortus IIs objective is not to serve the time keepers, but to lead humanity or mutanity into space peacefully, instead of the original Immortuss objective to confine Humanitys influence to Earth (see Avengers Forever), when Immortus II is locked out of limbo, he becomes Kang the Immortal, but that is another story. 

The glowing orb that Mephisto produced, claiming that it was the key to limbo has been seen before, the original Immortus used it on Kang the Conqueror somewhere in Avengers # 267-269, adding a selection of Immortuss memories into Kangs mind (memories of all the Kang counterparts). Mephisto used the orb to give Kurt Wagner memories of being rejected by the celestials, which he calls the Elder Gods. 

Limbo itself is the realm created by Dr Dooms time machine, the first mechanical time machine to exist. This time machine eventually found its way into the hands of the man who would become the scarlet centurion, Pharaoh Rama-Tut, Kang the Conqueror and in some realities Immortus, but would produce Immortus II in Avengers Forever. Many alternate versions of Kang the Conqueror, with their respective time machines, created Chronopolis half in Limbo, half in reality. This City has since been destroyed in Avengers Forever. 

The motivation for Mephisto placing Kurt Wagner/Belasco in Limbo is to have an agent of his own (a second) in charge of limbo, instead of Immortus II. The first Immortuss presence in Limbo was acceptable to Mephisto, so long as his agents, the time keepers, kept Immortus in check. The deaths of the Time keepers in Avengers Forever #12 and the creation of Immortus II meant that Mephisto had to do something new. Also, as Belasco/Kurt Wagner uses Limbo, more alternate timelines or alternate realities are created, a motivation that Mephisto promotes entirely, whereas Immortus would not only create new realities but destroy dangerous ones using the forever crystal (see Avengers forever again). Also, Mephisto had a grudge of sorts against Kurt Wagner, Kurt looked like a demon in appearance, but had never lost his faith in God. Mephisto despised this. 

Once Kurt Wagner/Belasco is sent back in time and encounters Shanna and mistakes her for Beatrice, he acts as we know he has acted, in many different timelines, or in timelines that have later diverged, creating more timelines, and thus for example alternate versions of Illyana Rasputin that have been under Belascos tutelage. Belasco drew teams of x-men to limbo from alternate realities, and killed many of them (Re: body of an alternate colossus in the Inferno storyline, alternate Storm and Cat), as well as his most recent acts in X-men: Black sun. 

In terms of the progression of the life of Belasco/Kurt Wagner, he may have more roles to play, but in the end, one way or another, this is how his story will end: back in the reality where Kurt Wagner originated before becoming Belasco, a team including the previously mentioned reborn Captain Marvel, Venom (may parker), Thor (with a curse of humility making him/her appear female), X-51 the machine man (aka Aaron Stack), Kyle Richmond, and Adam warlock, teleport to the savage land where Belasco/Kurt Wagner and his Dire wraiths are attacking the new team of X-men and the nation of Wakanda (such as Storm, Black panther, Beast, Cyclops, Hulk and Bruce Banner, and the new X-men team). The Captain Marvel child reveals to Belasco how Kurt Wagner died and was turned into what he has become by Mephisto. Kurt Wagner/Belasco was confused and went into the tunnels where he originally woke up from the ice and met Shanna for the first time. He went there to look for the real human Belasco that Dante wrote about, because Ka-zar, Shanna and the X-men always assumed that he (Kurt Wagner/Belasco) was in fact Belasco. Kurt Wagner found the body of the real human Belasco in the ice under the air conditioning pipes where he was originally frozen. Kurt now has proof of Mephisto's manipulation and this ends the threat of Belasco to the X-men. 

Later, Kurt Wagner, still in the appearance of Belasco, was seen in the Savage land, and had taped his fingers together to give the feeling of his old self once more, and eventually moved to New York city now nicknamed Absorbing Manhattan (after the Absorbing Man whose giant figure stands there now, Hells kitchen specifically, returning to his role as a hero. 

He was visited by the Watchman, X-51, or Aaron Stack. This is a link to the passage that took place: 

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums...read.php?t=5659 

Soon afterwards, Kurt was reunited with many of his friends from the X-men 
And Mephisto, in another of his unfolding schemes, restored the Excalibur team that had been frozen in stone back to life, this included Kurts left arm that was lost before he died. But because his body had been reflected when going into the Realm of the Dead, the arm could not be reattached. 

The last we see of Kurt Wagner who was once Belasco is when he works with Jude, the Entropic Man in bringing the sick and wounded who cannot die to the afterlife (Death, the elder of the universe had been destroyed and the way to the afterlife was closed off). Judes powers allowed the sick and dying to be sent to the Realm of the dead so that they could be brought into the Paradise created by Mar-Vell, while Kurt Wagner became the emissary to Limbo, the new hell, so that the villains unworthy of Paradise could be sent there. In this small way Kurt Wagner believed he could still serve Heaven. The End.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Chrisday wrote: 
>>>
He was visited by the Watchman, X-51, or Aaron Stack. This is a link to the passage that took place: 
www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums...read.php?t=5659 
<<<

That's a bad link. 


watching: crossing jordan

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The Origin of Belasco, Demon sorcerer, and ruler of Limbo, villain to many versions of the X-men from many different realities, including 616, is as follows: 
<<<

Well -- that's only if Earth X is canon. Which I don't think it is. Also, this account assumes that Illyana's Limbo is the same as Immortus' Limbo -- an assertation I don't think we've ever seen supported anywhere else. 

EDIT: come on -- in Earth X, Colossus was revealed to be Mr. Sinister! Why? because they *look alike*. Sheesh. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 10:24 am    
By rhod

That Colossus/Sinister thing was the worst bit in a series full of bad bits.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 02:42 pm    
By loki

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I'm speaking of the Limbo that the X-Men travel to on a regular basis. The one with Belasco, Sym, Magik, ect.., not any Limbo with the same name or just a Limbo that is not named. 

Any takers for my side of this debate. The big guns are on the otherside  

On another note, other universe X-Men have travled to the Belasco's Limbo. 
<<<

To back up what others have said, and contradicting Earth X, Belasco's Limbo is not Immortus' Limbo - the Deluxe Handbooks of the Marvel Universe note this specifically, and when Dr.Doom turned up in Excalibur to try and steal the soul sword, he also noted this difference between the two.

Last edited by loki on 11 Jun 2005 01:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 02:45 pm    
By loki

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The Origin of Belasco, Demon sorcerer, and ruler of Limbo, villain to many versions of the X-men from many different realities, including 616, is as follows: 

Well -- that's only if Earth X is canon. Which I don't think it is. Also, this account assumes that Illyana's Limbo is the same as Immortus' Limbo -- an assertation I don't think we've ever seen supported anywhere else. 

EDIT: come on -- in Earth X, Colossus was revealed to be Mr. Sinister! Why? because they *look alike*. Sheesh. 
<<<


Earth X is canon....but only for Earth X. That's official Marvel policy. Nothing in Earth X's history applies to the greater multiverse. Revelations related to the greater multiverse are to be considered suspect. 

As for the Limbo's, as I've stated, we've actually had specific comments clarifying that Immortus and Magik did not rule the same dimension. Magik's Limbo can access Immortus' Limbo ("True Limbo") but then so can every other reality across the multiverse.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 09:53 pm    
By Chrisday

Loki, i came here to get a different opinion, not your opinion a second time...

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 10:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

loki wrote: 
>>>
Earth X is canon....but only for Earth X. That's official Marvel policy. Nothing in Earth X's history applies to the greater multiverse. 
<<<

Well, yeah, but Spider-Ham is canon, too, but only for the the Spider-Ham-verse. "Canon"--to us--means that it qualifies for a listing in the Project. 


watching: a man with an eyepatch getting a haircut and shave

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 10:46 pm    
By Jason Doty

Administrator wrote 
>>>
"--to us--means that it qualifies for a listing in the Project.  
<<<

It should get a listing on its own page, It is no different then 2099, MC2, Mutant X-verse, Age of Apacalypse. It's run includes EarthX, Universe X, Paradise X, Heralds, and assorted one shots, and characters with listings have been there. Wolverine 2013, Bloodstorm, Killraven. 

I think the Earth X Universe is canon. Just like 2099, Ultimate Universe, New Universe, 2099, Mutant X verse, and the list goes on. Now eventually I think once the 616 gets done we will or could list alternate Marvel Universes with substantial runs. I believe the origins of those individuals are specific to that universe. In the case of this issue about Nightcrawler, I believe they were saying he was the one and only Belasco. Many are complaining about this because they don't want it to be true, but the fact remains many Marvel titles are having universe to universe cross overs. Ultimate to 616. 616 to Mutant X, Mutant X to Earth X, Earth X to 616, 616 to New Universe. 

If Earth X's story about Nightcrawler is true. He is Belasco. It dos'nt mean that we have to use the flashbacks to their characters origins because their universe runs at a different speed. In the case of Belasco his origin crossed over into the 616, if that is what the title says. 

" Personally" I think any Marvel Universe with over a 15 issue run should qualify it for its own page.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 12:01 am    
By Chrisday

i agree, and there have been several subtle references to ideas from Reality X (earth x trilogy nickname) in Exiles and other marvel titles. 

in Exiles there has been the timebreakers bug creatures watching Mephisto (in at least two scenes in the most recent arc) as well as the stuff with Ego a few months ago - almost a direct reference to the celestial plan... if you understand what you are looking for. 

also in 616, Thanos's particularly strong connection with his mother and the significance of that 

and Immortus II's only appearance after Avengers Forever #12 is in the Earth X trilogy 

and the fact that the Earth X trilogy itself has several hundred references to stories and characters of the mainstream and other 'canon' realities. 

and if the Ultimates universe is regarded as canon by both Exiles and Reality X, then surely Earth X can be considered Canon. 

avengers forever has Earth X characters in it. 

and X-men Forever practically screams 'celestial plan' 

and the Trilogy in its sheer scale is multiversal. it may not apply to all realities, it might not apply to 616 anymore, but it did once. After all, Reality X Brian Braddock is a divergent character from 616 Brian Braddock. They were once the same...

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 12:10 am    
By Jason Doty

Quote: 
>>>
After all, Reality X Brian Braddock is a divergent character from 616 Brian Braddock. They were once the same... 
<<<

If all universe diverge at a different point, this one was definatly divergent much earlier then that. probably at the point of the big bang. Time is running differently there. Reed Richards and others are substantialy older, just as the 616 is substantialy older then the Ultimate Universe characters in the same year.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 12:13 am    
By Chrisday

i think it was in the scene showing Merlyn's funeral, only 616 Brian Braddock would be standing there... (as far as i know)

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 01:36 am    
By loki

Chrisday wrote: 
>>>
Loki, i came here to get a different opinion, not your opinion a second time... 
<<<

You came here and restated your case for Earth X here on another board, but you feel I'm not allowed to restate (and expand on) the case why Earth X isn't canon across the multiverse? Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You can't join in a debate and then say "Anyone who has already said they have a different viewpoint from mine isn't allowed to participate."

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 01:38 am    
By loki

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Well, yeah, but Spider-Ham is canon, too, but only for the the Spider-Ham-verse. "Canon"--to us--means that it qualifies for a listing in the Project. 
<<<


Fair enough - I take the distinction in how the word canon is applied here. The point I was trying to make however is that Marvel editorial's official stance on Earth X is that all the "revelations" that series came out with don't apply outside Earth X.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 01:44 am    
By loki

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
If Earth X's story about Nightcrawler is true. He is Belasco. It dos'nt mean that we have to use the flashbacks to their characters origins because their universe runs at a different speed. In the case of Belasco his origin crossed over into the 616, if that is what the title says. 
<<<

The 616 universe Belasco is not Nightcrawler. Earth X Belasco (who is Nightcrawler) being the same Belasco across the multiverse depends on his Limbo being the same realm across all the timelines (and Earth X makes the case that Belasco's Limbo and Immortus' Limbo are one and the same). But, as others have noted, we've seen alternate Universe versions of Belasco's Limbo in What If (and we've been explicitly told in other titles that Belasco's Limbo is not the same place as Immortus' Limbo, whatever Earth X suggested).

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 02:03 am    
By loki

Chrisday wrote: 
>>>
i think it was in the scene showing Merlyn's funeral, only 616 Brian Braddock would be standing there... (as far as i know) 
<<<

I noticed that too - but there's a flaw in that arguement. The case depends on the flashback showing the younger King Britain (prior to using that name) being in CB-616's place in Merlyn's funeral procession. That procession, with pall bearers, was reproduced by the artist with great care (and research), which should support your case - all but one of the pall-bearers match. And there's the problem - one of the pall-bearers is clearly, unquestionably, a different person from the version Alan Davis originally drew. If a number of them were different, we could put it down to an artist not doing his research; but this one clearly did do his research. So the change was deliberate; and even if it wasn't the intention, if one pall bearer can be someone completely different, then anyone in that procession can be a different person from the one Davis drew. Either 

(1) Roma ran that funeral many times, or 

(2) to fit in a near infinite number of mourners from across the multiverse, Roma pulled some dimensional jiggery pokery so that many different individuals were simultaneously occupying the same points in space as each other, or 

(3) that vision was inaccurate (possibly doctored).

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:29 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Now eventually I think once the 616 gets done we will or could list alternate Marvel Universes with substantial runs. 
<<<

Once 616 gets done, I'd like to do that, too. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
" Personally" I think any Marvel Universe with over a 15 issue run should qualify it for its own page. 
<<<

So noted. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:36 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Chrisday wrote: 
>>>
i agree, and there have been several subtle references to ideas from Reality X (earth x trilogy nickname) in Exiles and other marvel titles. 

in Exiles there has been the timebreakers bug creatures watching Mephisto (in at least two scenes in the most recent arc) as well as the stuff with Ego a few months ago - almost a direct reference to the celestial plan... if you understand what you are looking for. 

also in 616, Thanos's particularly strong connection with his mother and the significance of that 

and Immortus II's only appearance after Avengers Forever #12 is in the Earth X trilogy 

and the fact that the Earth X trilogy itself has several hundred references to stories and characters of the mainstream and other 'canon' realities. 

and if the Ultimates universe is regarded as canon by both Exiles and Reality X, then surely Earth X can be considered Canon. 

avengers forever has Earth X characters in it. 

and X-men Forever practically screams 'celestial plan' 

and the Trilogy in its sheer scale is multiversal. 
<<<

None of which is evidence that any of the characters from Earth X are anything but alternate universe versions of "Earth 616" characters. 

And as an aside, it's hardly fair to copy whole cloth your posts from other posting boards, and then criticize loki for doing the same thing in response. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:59 am    
By Jason Doty

In What If's we know that an event is altered and a "divergent" universe is created because of that event, right? In the What if about "Inferno" did the time line diverge after the demons came to Earth, because if so my case for one Limbo still stands. Do we actually see another Limbo in What If?, and is this the only What If that shows Limbo, if it does?

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 09:44 am    
By Jason Doty

Go read my Issue Analysis for What If v2 #6 for a description of when the reality branched off. It was BEFORE the demons came to Earth. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 02:27 pm    
By Jason Doty

Jeph, your basing your idea on on something that happened in the Marvel Universe after "Inferno" and then supporting this with vague dialog, right? This is the reason? 

Jeph York wrote 
>>>
Since Skrulls give birth to eggs, not human-looking children, this must be the real Alicia in the divergent reality  which means that this reality actually branched off at Alicias kidnapping and replacement, back during the Secret Wars.  
<<<

Has there ever been a human, Skrull inter species child born?, or because of the events in "Inferno," she found away to have a human appearing child, using some skrull science or do we know how long it takes for an egg to hatch? Does, I seem to vaguly recall Dr. Strange delivering the child, I'll pull out the issue. I can't argue with your reasoning because I do not collect FF or know about Skrull pregnancy. I'll give it a look. 

My question isn't intended to say Jeph! is wrong, but to just review the situation. I know my post seems a bit combative, If it does that is not my intent.

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 04:56 pm    
By jephyork
Director

When Lyja was impregnated by Johnny Storm in the mainstream MU, she gave birth to an egg. I highly doubt that, in this demon-ravaged world, "Alicia" found any "Skrull science" that would enable her to give birth to (a) a non-egg baby that (b) looked human. And you'd think that Dr. Strange as the delivering obstetrician would notice anything wrong. 

Yes, I'm basing the divergence point on (a) a later retcon and (b) the Watcher's dialogue (which isn't that vague, actually). However, even if you take the divergence point as the writers originally intended it to be, it still results in a divergent version of Limbo. 

In the Marvel Universe, Illyana banished all the demons from earth back to Limbo, and sent her soulsword along to seal the deal. A bit later on, S'ym was banished back to Limbo as well. 

In the comic, S'ym was sent back to Limbo at the same instant as the Soulsword -- and he was able to take it, carve a path back to earth, and team up with the Goblin Queen to kill the X-Men, sacrifice the babies, and RE-OPEN the portal to Limbo -- permanently. 

So, either way, a divergent Limbo exists. Originally it's the divergent Limbo that overruns the divergent earth for a second time, and -- thanks to the Lyja retcon, we now know that it was the divergent Limbo invading the divergent Earth *both* times. 

Also, a divergent Limbo is mentioned in Exiles #41-42 ... the Illyana Rasputin from Nocturne's dimension was ruler of "her" Limbo, too. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 17

Posted: 20 Jan 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: ReLoad X-chronology - version 3.0!
By jephyork
Director

Okay  here's another take on things. And I hope to God it's the final take. 

I'm pretty happy with the way we've managed to interlock UX #444 and X #157  we still haven't quite decided on whether there should be a gap between pp.20-21 or 22-23 of X #157, but for these purposes it doesn't really matter. I've left the ordering of these two issues basically alone. 

But as I was reading Astonishing X-Men #1 for the first time, it occurred to me how much of Joss Whedon's intent we've been violating with some of our proposed orders. Granted, by poking holes in all these issues we're violating the story flow and writer intent in all of them, but there were a lot of story elements in Astonishing that we seemed to be giving particularly short shrift. 

In particular, a lot of Whedon's "firsts" seem to be getting trampled on, in favor of "firsts" from other books. 

- This is clearly Kitty's first time seeing the mansion since it's destruction. For some reason the narration indicates that Kitty thinks the new mansion looks "exactly like she remembers it" (meaning, exactly like the old mansion)  and you could probably use this goof to concoct an order where Kitty has been to the new mansion before this  but I'm trying to go with Whedon's intent. 

- This is clearly the very start of the school term  Emma's holding an assembly and introducing the staff. 

- This appears to be Wolverine's first time back at the mansion in a while  he's not yet used to the notion of Scott and Emma as a serious couple (sleeping in the same bed, etc.). 

- The Danger Room scene is clearly the first time Logan's heard anything about a return to costumes  and from the way Scott's describing his rationale for a return to costumes and public heroics, it seems to be the first time he's discussed it with anyone present. The Beast's dialogue also clearly indicates that nobody has seen or tried on their costumes yet. 

If only there were a way to have all of these "firsts" occur prior to the early scenes in UX #444 and X #157. We could, technically, place the entire arc of ASTONX3 #1-6 first  but it doesn't really ring true. By the end of #6, enough time has passed that the "firsts" in UX #444 and X #157 seem out-of-place. (Besides, a few characters in X #157 are still wearing their Morrison-era outfits, and I'd like to try to find an order that doesn't relegate them to "art error".) 

If only there was a gap in the opening ASTONX3 arc  one where I could fit some of the "firsts" from UX #444 and X #157. 

Well, I might have found one. The trouble is, to crowbar it open, I'll have to  that's right  violate Whedon's intent. 

Dare I violate his intent in order to preserve his intent? Well, I'm gonna give it my best shot  let me know what you think. 

The "gap" I'm looking at is on p.18 of ASTONX3 #1. Pp.1-17 feature Kitty returning to the school (without Lockheed), Emma addressing the assembly, Wolverine returning to the school and taking offense at Scott's relationship with Emma, and Scott mentioning the return to costumes and public heroism for the first time. All firsts that I'd like to keep first, and all told fairly straightforwardly. Then, on p.18, Whedon starts cross-cutting. 

"Cross-cutting" is a term where a writer (or director) cuts back and forth between scenes occuring in different places  a narrative device designed to imply to the reader that all the scenes are occuring simultaneously. Cross-cutting, when skillfully used, can build suspense, juxtapose events, or even FOOL the viewer  at times, USING the viewer's assumption that all the events are happening simultaneously to pull off a twist ending. 

And that's what I'm focusing on  the reader's ASSUMPTION that all the scenes Whedon is showing are occuring simultaneously. 

P.18 begins with a shot of Dr. Kavita Rao backstage, about to give a speech. The rest of the page is Kitty staring into the night sky, waiting for Lockheed to arrive  dialogue between her and Wolvie clearly implies that this is still the same day as before. Then we cut back to Kavita Rao, and then begin cutting back and forth between Dr. Rao, a hostage situation, and the X-Men suiting up to go deal with the crisis. 

It's incontestable that the scenes of the hostage situation developing occur at the same time as the scenes of the X-Men suiting up. And later issues of ASTONX3 state that the X-Men were out dealing with the crisis at the same time that Dr. Rao was giving her speech. So most of the scenes are *confirmed* to be occuring at the same time. 

Except one. We have NO explicit confirmation that p.18 panels 1-2  Kavita backstage preparing to make her speech  occur at the same time as p.18 panels 3-5  Kitty and Logan waiting for Lockheed, the day Cyclops announces a return to costumes. 

(Of course, it's Whedon's *intent* that they do  hence the cross-cutting  but like I said, this is where I attempt to ignore it.) 

What if panels 3-5 occur *before* panels 1-2? 

(Remember: it's not unprecedented to have scenes in a comic occur out-of-order. We've discussed examples of this before.) 

And, if panels 3-5 occur first -- what if there's a great big gap between panels 3-5 and panels 1-2? A gap of days or more? A gap in which we can put some of the other "firsts"? 

Give this chronology a shot: 

---- 

- Astonishing X-Men v3 #1, pp.1-17, p.18 panels 3-5: 

Kitty arrives at the school (without Lockheed), seeing it rebuilt for the first time. Emma opens the school semester with a general assembly where she introduces the senior staff. Wolverine is "elsewhere" at the time, but when he arrives, he is disgusted with Scott and Emma sleeping together, and fights Scott over what he considers a lack of respect for Jean's memory  a fight Kitty later calls a "big entrance" (which again implies that Logan hasn't been around recently). Later that day, Scott discusses a return to costumes, which is the first Logan has heard of it. Scott talks about having chosen the X-Men present as "his team", but doesn't mention anything about other squads. Kitty, who has returned to the mansion to teach, appears to be hearing about this for the first time as well  she "officially really, really doesn't know what she's doing there". The Beast asks if anyone's excited to see the costumes, which also implies that nobody (or, not everybody) has seen them yet. As night falls, Kitty and Logan look for Lockheed in the sky. 

- Uncanny X-Men #444, pp.1-7: 

It looks like Lockheed arrived in the night, because there he is with Kitty as the X-Men play a baseball game. The teams are divided fairly simply into the old X-Treme X-Men vs. the Institute senior staff  except Logan has switched sides. The attitude he gives Scott is consistent with the two of them having brawled over Scott's conduct with Emma the day before  and we've theorized that his being on Storm's baseball team is where Scott gets the idea to put Logan on "all the teams". Indeed, since Storm's team still appears separate, it apears that  although Scott has decided on "his team"  he has not yet approached Storm's unit with the proposal to mix them into other mansion-based X-Men squads. 

- X-Men #157, pp.1-22, p.23 narration caption 1: 

Possibly the next day  at this point, Scott has decided upon and announced the lineups of three squads, and very few people are happy. Jay Guthrie arrives at the school (after the semester has started, so he missed the assembly), and is given an informal tour by Havok. Over the course of the tour, most of Havok's new squad start tagging along, and when they head for Scott's office to debate their lineup, everyone else is already in there  wearing a mix of costumes. (Cyclops and Wolverine have adopted the costumes that were announced in ASTONX3 #1 p.17, and Nightcrawler, Gambit, Rogue and Havok have adopted their ReLoad outfits, but the Beast and Emma are still wearing their Morrison outfits, and Kitty and Sage are still wearing their leather looks from their X-Treme days.) Wolvie mentions being assigned to all the teams, and Kitty angrily asks "wait, I thought you didn't need me anymore?" Apparently she didn't fully understand what Scott was saying in ASTONX3 #1  then she only appeared cheerfully confused about the conversational possibility of her returning to active duty, and here she appears betrayed and angry at her concrete assignment to an X-team. 

Somewhere along the line here, Jay's informal tour with Sammy and tagalong X-Men morphs into Havok's squad and Sammy being summoned to Cerebra by Emma (in Morrison leathers), who sends them on a mission to China. 

- Uncanny X-Men #444, pp.8-11: 

Apparently, despite Lorna's collapse on X #157 p.22, the mission wasn't terribly urgent  Havok's team doesn't leave immediately. The Beast has time for a quick dip in the pool, and Sage has time to change into a robe (possibly also from a quick dip in the pool  maybe the Beast suggested it as a way to break the tension from the meeting in Scott's office). However, the Beast quickly gets back to work  the mission is *slightly* urgent, after all  and gives Gambit a checkup before he leaves. Both Storm and the Beast think Gambit's powers need more time in rehab, but Gambit doesn't seem to want to listen. Meanwhile, the newly-arrived Jay Guthrie flies shirtless around the school grounds, and is caught by TV cameras. 

(It's notable that Gambit is the only character who goes on to appear in X #157 *after* this portion of UX #444  if not for his presence, this scene could occur *while* Havok's team is on their mission, with no chronological difficulties. Oh well.) 

- X-Men #157 p.23 (all but narration caption #1), pp.24-25 
- X-Men #158-160 

Gambit goes on the mission anyway, against doctor's orders  and his ailing powers allow a playing card to blow up in his face, injuring his eyes and blinding him. The X-Men discover Xorn II and bring him home to the X-Mansion. Meanwhile, back at the mansion, Emma has adopted her ReLoad costume. 

- Uncanny X-Men #444 pp.12-23 
- Uncanny X-Men #445-449 

Wolverine, back from China, blows off steam in a Danger Room session with Nightcrawler and Storm. Logan appears to be new to the concept of the XSE, so it's likely that he's still freshly assigned to Storm's squad. Kurt's dialogue indicates that he's having the idea that he, Storm and Logan should "work together more often"  but since X #157 showed us that Cyclops was the one who made the squad lineup decisions, and showed us that Nightcrawler wasn't happy with his assignment  Kurt's line here can be read as a joke, getting at the notion that since they've been assigned together, they should make the most of it. 

Sage (who has now adopted her ReLoad outfit, instead of the robe she was wearing during her last spyglass session) then sends the XSE squad on two separate missions  and Logan and Kurt's ends with the death of a teenage mutant. While the investigation wears on into the evening and the two are eventually exonerated, the footage of Jay Guthrie's flight airs on TV (as can be seen on Sage's monitors). Somewhere off-panel, Mrs. Guthrie sees it and calls Cannonball to chew him out. 

Later that evening (daytime in England), the XSE squad is sent to Braddock Manor, where they encounter the Fury  who uses Sage's spyglasses to take control of her, and the mansion's defenses. The Fury releases a gas into the mansion, which incapacitates most of the X-Men  including Gambit, who is once again in the Beast's office for a checkup. This one, I theorize, is for his injured eyes. 

After the Fury's defeat, the X-Men (still in England) are ambushed by Viper on their way to dinner with the Queen. 

- Astonishing X-Men v3 #1 p.18 panels 1-2; pp.19-24 

On an evening when Dr. Kavita Rao makes a speech announcing a "cure" for mutation, the X-Men swing into action to defuse a hostage situation at a charity fundrasier. Although this is the "dramatic first appearance" of the ReLoad costumes as far as the reader is concerned, there's no explicit mention that this is the first time they've worn them. This *is* the first time we see Kitty's and the Beast's, but Wolvie, Cyclops and Emma can get away with having worn their new outfits in X #157-160 and UX #444-449. 

The X-Men battle Ord and look into Kavita's cure, in a story that culminates with the return of Colossus. In ASTONX3 #3, Cyclops mentions "the other teams", so the other squads are set up by this point. 

---- 

Okay, so  how does that look? I've left out the opening arc of "New X-Men", later arcs of all titles, and tie-ins and ancillary books for now  if this core order holds up, we should be able to slide them in relatively easily. 

And all I've ignored of Whedon's intent is three things: 

- that Kavita's speech was the same night that Cyclops announced the return to costumes, 

- that ASTONX3 #1 pp.19-24 was the first time that they donned the new costumes (these two are basically part of the same story point, to be honest), 

- and the contention that Lockheed didn't show up until ASTONX3 #2. 

Of the three, Lockheed's appearance is probably the biggest offender  and even there, there's no *explicit* dialogue stating that ASTONX3 #2 is the first time Kitty's seen Lockheed since they departed, separately, for the mansion prior to #1. All Kitty says here is "Lockheed, you found me!"  and all that implies is, Lockheed didn't know where she was and tracked her to the hostage crisis. It doesn't say anything about his starting point. He could have tracked her there while flying in from Chicago, or he could have tracked her there after waking up from a nap at the mansion and finding her gone. Of all the chronologies I'm trying to balance here  Gambit and Jay Guthrie and the one-by-one appearance of the ReLoad costumes  fudging Whedon's intent for Lockheed, of all things, seems an okay trade-off. 

So  thoughts? Feedback? I think I've covered all my bases here, with this basic spine, and I think it provides a solid foundation on which to build the rest of the chronology (New X-Men, Excalibur v3, X-Men Unlimited v2, etc.). 

Like I said in the Chat forum, I'm going to be away all weekend, and won't be able to respond to anything until Monday evening at the earliest  so please don't take my silence personally, or as an admission of defeat. I've been over and over this chronology, and while I'm sure it has holes, I feel that it's the best *overall* ordering of events, costumes and individual chronologies that we've seen yet  taking the most into account, and containing the fewest amount of "errors" and ignoring of story intent. 

I stand by it. And I hope you do too. And at this point I'm ready  very ready  to settle on it, say "done!", and move on. 

Discuss. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Jan 2005 04:22 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I don't see the basis for inferring that it's the first time Kitty's seen the building since it was rebuilt. She's reflecting on the building, but that doesn't mean it's the first time she's seen it since the reconstruction. 

Honestly, I think the whole area is such a mess that I'm not inclined to chop up the stories at all; I don't think it's ever going to make sense, so it might as well be simple and not make sense, rather than complicated and not make sense. But we've been through this argument before, so I'm not going to retread the whole area.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 22 Jan 2005 06:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

First, Jeph, I really would hesitate to reorganize the sequence of panels in an issue. We'd need a really good reason to do that, and I don't think we have such a reason here. 

Secondly, I'm not really convinced of the need for this reordering, and it runs counter to a number of clues in previous versions of X-Men Reload chronology notes, including your own prior observations. 

Look no further than Kitty herself, one of the main reasons you feel the need to reorder things. What happened to your reasoning (which I thought was great) behind the haircut we first see at the beginning of ASTONX3 1 and her statement to Scott in X 157, Wait, I thought you didnt need me anymore? 

Here's our established order for Kitty: 
1) She's hanging out with the X-Men with long hair during the baseball game in UX 444 (1-7). 
2) She's assigned to Scott's team in X 157 (7-25) after thinking she wasn't needed. 
3) She returns to Chicago with Lockheed to collect her things because she'll be moving back to the Institute. She gets her hair cut while she's at it. 
4) She returns to the Institute alone, with Lockheed choosing to fly back on his own. Her hair is now cut and she reflects about the great job they did in rebuilding the place. As Paul O. noted, this isn't necessarily the first time she's ever seen the new Institute; nothing explicitly states that as the case. 

Pretty straightforward. Easy to follow. And no need to go reordering panels in a "cross-cutting" sequence. 

Also pay attention to such details as the Institute's state of construction across various titles. At the beginning of ASTONX3 1, things look done from the front of the building. In UX 444, which you place after that part of ASTONX3 1, we see scaffolding. A minor detail, but still... 

Another problem with your sequencing concerns Cyclops and Wolverine. To wit, in UX 444 (1-7), we see this dialogue -- Scott: Why are you on Storms team, Wolverine? Isnt your place here, with the Institute? Logan: I make my own place, bub. Just like I choose my own friends. Scott: Whats that supposed to mean? Scott doesn't have a clue where Logan is coming from. Surely this means that UX 444 (1-7) occurs before ASTONX3 1, where it becomes very clear to Scott what Logan's problem is. 

Those are just a couple of things I noticed here, but my first reaction is that I think the proposed restructuring is getting us further from a final solution. I'll do some more checking before you return.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Jan 2005 04:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

Sigh. I'm actually really disappointed right now -- I really thought this would get a positive response. 

I'm still in L.A. right now, so I don't have the books at hand, but let's see what I can rebut: 


First off -- Paul, you ask what happened to my initial reasoning? Well, I didn't own all the books at the time -- I was going by the two I owned, UX and X, and by what I remembered from skimming ASTONX3 in the store months before. 

If you notice, I left all the decisions we had made about interlocking UX and X alone -- I still do agree with our reasoning there ... but once I *actually read* ASTONX3 #1-6, I changed my mind. It happens. 


Secondly -- Kitty was not "one of the main reasons" I felt the need to re-order things. The costumes were one of the main reasons. I just couldn't see Wolverine wearing his new outfit on missions in both X #157-160 *and* UX #444-449, *then* being confused and annoyed when Cyclops mandated a return to costumes. 


Thirdly -- there have been many books over the years where a strict chronological analysis has determined that some scenes must occur slightly out of order. Unfortunately, I can only think of one example right now -- a recent one, Identity Disc #3 -- where we see scenes of the various villains completing their parts of an intricate plan. On one page, the Vulture and Sabretooth break into a law firm to steal some data. It's clearly during business hours, and a clock on the wall reads 9:15. On the very next page, the Juggernaut is staking out an AIM warehouse, and in the verbal notes he's recording, he gives the time as 0500 hours. The Juggernaut page absolutely HAS to occur first, strictly speaking -- but for the purposes of Story Flow, it doesn't matter one bit which comes first. 

There are other examples -- but what I'm saying is, it's *not unprecedented* to unhook scenes based on a strict chronological analysis. And, based on my strict analysis of things (mainly the costumes) in all three X-books, it does seem like there must be a gap between ASTONX3 #1 pp.18-19. 

And it's conceivable that -- just like two pages in ID #3 taking place in reverse order than they were presented -- panels 1-2 and 3-5 on p.18 might occur in the reverse order they were presented, as well. 

Basically -- the ONLY WAY to make the costume chronology flow correctly is to create that gap -- and since (a) there's no character overlap at all between the Kavita scene and the X-Men scene, and (b) reversing them doesn't harm Story Flow within ASTONX3 #1 at all -- I don't have much of a problem bending the rules a little bit and separating them. 


Other stuff: 

As for Kitty's hair -- please. It's a simple case of three different artists drawing the same character. Do we try to order the Beast's chronology because he looks vastly different when drawn by Alan Davis, Sal Larroca, and John Cassaday? 

And no, there's no *explicit* confirmation that ASTONX3 #1 is Kitty's first time back at the mansion ... but, come on -- isn't it the clear *intent* of the scene? She didn't stay there through its rebuilding, leave briefly to pack, then return and stare at it marvelling. She'd have gotten that out of her system before she left. 

(Yes yes yes, we've been bending implied intent to fit chronology for some time now -- but why do it if you don't have to?) 

And speaking of "implied intent" -- Scott's question in UX #444, "what's that supposed to mean?", which you took to mean that Scott doesn't understand that Logan is angry -- I took as a confrontational response to Logan's vieled threat of "I choose my own friends". 

Let's face it: Scott and Logan's fight in ASTONX3 #1 and their baseball hostility in UX #444 could go in ANY order -- one doesn't work "better" than another. 

Ditto Kitty's two lines: 

"Wait, I thought you didn't need me anymore?" 
"Okay, I'm officially really, really confused what I'm doing here." 

In either order, Kitty's basically saying the same thing twice -- neither order is "better" than the other. 

And, you know what? If you really want that baseball game to come first -- it can. The baseball game could come first, then Logan AND Kitty AND Lockheed all leave, and all return in ASTONX3 #1. UX #444 pp.1-7 is a pretty free-floating scene. 

All I really care about is that X #157 pp.1-23 -- where we see some characters in their ReLoad outfits and some in their Morrison outfits -- occurs between the ASTONX3 #1 scene where the ReLoad outfits are announced, and the scene where we see them *all* in ReLoad outfits. 


Dunno, man. I thought this was genius -- I thought it read fantastically smoothly. I'm really sad that it's not going over well ... and I'm wondering how much of it is actual hiccups in my proposal, and how much of it is a lack of desire to trash everything and start over again. 

Right now, the ONLY hiccup I see is the scaffolding in UX #444. That's the ONLY thing, to me, that this chronology doesn't address. 

Bah. Come on, folks -- give it another look. Blank everything you know (and more importantly, everything you've *assumed*) about the scenes in question, and read it through. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Jan 2005 06:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I just couldn't see Wolverine wearing his new outfit on missions in both X #157-160 *and* UX #444-449, *then* being confused and annoyed when Cyclops mandated a return to costumes.  
<<<

To be fair, I have Logan appearing in his Reload costume only once before Scott's announcement of the mandatory costume rule -- the mission in X 157-160. I have UX 444-449 occurring after the rule was announced. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm wondering how much of it is actual hiccups in my proposal, and how much of it is a lack of desire to trash everything and start over again.  
<<<

I really don't think your suggestions involve "trashing everything." The beauty of my divvying up X-Men Reload issues into digestable bits with plenty of clues is that you can mix things around and see how they look. 

I'll get back to this sometime in the next several days. I hope other folks chime in in the meantime.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Jan 2005 11:41 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Honestly, I think the whole area is such a mess that I'm not inclined to chop up the stories at all; I don't think it's ever going to make sense, so it might as well be simple and not make sense, rather than complicated and not make sense. But we've been through this argument before, so I'm not going to retread the whole area. 
<<<

I'm starting to lean towards this line of thought as well. At what point do we break down and just say, "This issue is wrong, and this issue is right." ? 

Could we take a vote on it? Cause it appears everyone's at an impasse, and has come to their own conclusions...none of which are compatible with other interpretations... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Jan 2005 08:28 am    
By Dhall

In my opinion, the stories are going to have to be chopped up. The way they were written make it necessary. Yes, not everyone is going to agree on every point, and it might take a long time to tease it all out, but so what? This is the MCP, that's what we do here.... 

Just because this mess is never going to work perfectly, is no reason not to try to make it work 95%. 

I think Jeph's on to something. The new costume references make more sense if they come before some of the other appearances, and to do that requires a gap in Astonishing X-Men. And 'IF' we can push back the rest of Astonishing, then it's at least a little closer, to Colossus' return being acknowledged in the other books (whenever that finally happens.) 

Dave H

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Posted: 24 Jan 2005 10:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
In my opinion, the stories are going to have to be chopped up.  
<<<

Most definitely. Chopping as finely as reorganizing the sequence of panels on a page is another issue, though. The ID 3 example that Jeph cites is different, IMO, because the clues for an out-of-sequence interpretation are right there on the page. What Jeph is proposing is reorganizing panels in one comic based on interpretation inferred from a combination of factors gleaned from a bunch of other comics. (Of course, one can preserve the precious order of panels on page 18 of ASTONX3 1 by declaring that Dr. Rao is in fact preparing in panels 1 and 2 for a presentation other than that shown on page 19. I call this the "Tony Stark before the UN" argument.  ) 

(Hey, I just realized...is the guy proposing reordering the sequence of panels the same guy who likes to maintain publication order?  ) 

Still, despite the Kitty and Lockheed conundrum and the Institute scaffolding issue, I do like the idea of a gap somewhere in ASTONX3 1 for a number of reasons. Costumes are one, and I'd like to see Colossus enter the picture a bit later in the chronology. Also, I'm toying with a WX2 reason for Logan's absence at the beginning of ASTONX2 1. The whole Mr. Sinister thing in XCAL3, plus my pushing of Disassembled to a later point may benefit from such a gap. 

Jeph, I'd like to take some of your contributions here and fuse them to my old notes, do some restructuring, and come up with another new (although I'm sure still not last) Reload chronology, one that's a bit more comprehensive. I'd really like to see how NX and other titles will work here. Before I do that, though, a question and a request... 

Question: Can I assume that Sabretooth dons his traditional orange/brown costume upon joining the Brotherhood after WX3 28? If so, could we have Sabes appear in his four-issue mini and in Identity Disc after joining the Brotherhood but before X 161? 

Request: An analysis of W3 13-19 would be really handy at this point, as would some notes on W3 20-21. 

One last point -- I'm playing devil's advocate on that resequencing of panels issue, to make sure we would really want to do such a thing. We could make an argument for it, although doing this wouldn't necessarily solve all the problems created by the mess that is Reload (now rising to the top of my 2004 list of challenges). How does everyone feel about that particular approach?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Jan 2005 11:39 pm    
By U-Man

Couple of thoughts. I only have ASTONX 1, and that only because it's online: 

I don't think we need to reorder panels in order to create a break after the Danger Room scene. On page 18 (at least, that's how Marvel.com counts it, I think you're counting it as page 17), the X-Men are in the Danger Room (aka "The X-Men's Holodeck"); on the next page, Kitty is waiting for Lockheed, and is outside the entire mansion. The third panel of this scene seems to me to be a good amount of time after the Danger Room sequence, and so does the scene where the X-Men are suiting up (which seems to be an even longer time), and that scene clearly can't occur too close to the outside-the-mansion scene. I'm sure other issues completely screw this up... 

If you look at the second page of Kitty's reflection, she says "Of course the Professor would have it rebuilt this way, give everyone a sense of stability, continuity." This seems to indicate that Whedon is working under the assumption that Professor X has actually rebuilt the mansion exactly as it was before, which of course, it wasn't. (It also indicates strongly that we can't just shoehorn Kitty into an earlier trip to the mansion, especially by the use of the word "everyone". It doesn't solve the problem and probably introduces new ones.) Which mansion does it appear to be? If it's the old one, it's a big goof and we can probably ignore the whole thing; if it's the new one, perhaps this is Whedon's way of saying "the more things change, the more they stay the same" in people's minds? On a related note, Kitty is about to phase into the mansion (the whole mansion) when she says this, and isn't inside yet... is the outside of the new mansion deliberately supposed to look like the old one?

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Posted: 25 Jan 2005 07:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The third panel of this scene seems to me to be a good amount of time after the Danger Room sequence, and so does the scene where the X-Men are suiting up (which seems to be an even longer time), and that scene clearly can't occur too close to the outside-the-mansion scene. I'm sure other issues completely screw this up...  
<<<

The dialog between Kitty and Logan on page 18 really makes sense if it's later the same day as page 17, and we'd be hard pressed to insert a big gap between the two. Kitty notes that "Lockheed wanted to fly on his own. I thought he'd beat me here..." Thus, Lockheed can't appear in any issues you put in the gap. Secondly, Logan says, "The dragon'll show. I did." Kitty responds, "Big entrance," and Logan replies "Sorry about that. Wasn't planning it, I just...sometimes I go off." This exchange doesn't make a lot of sense if we insert a lot of time between Logan's arrival at the Institute earlier in this issue and this scene.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Jan 2005 08:50 am    
By jephyork
Director

Yep -- Lockheed's continued absence, and the dialogue between Kitty and Logan, mean that there can't be much of a gap between pp.17-18. It's a shame, because otherwise it's a perfectly straightforward gap. 

By the way, U-Man -- the outside of the new mansion looks nothing like the old one. The dialogue is basically a big goof-up on Whedon's part, and there's not much to be done about it. 

And Paul -- yes, the guy who advocates publication order is also advocating re-arranging the panels.  Hey, sometimes problems require creative solutions! Although I do take your point about the difference between the ID #3 scenes, with all the clues present in the issue itself, and the scenes in ASTONX3 #1. 

If you'd like to rationalize Kavita's backstage scene on p.18 as being for a different speech, or for a practice speech, or what-have-you -- using the "Stark at the U.N." rationale -- that's great! It accomplishes the exact same purpose as my proposal to swap the panel order -- it creates a much-needed gap in ASTONX3 #1. And, either way we decide to rationalize off the creation of the gap, my way or your way, Kavita's MCP chronology will be unchanged -- which is the important part. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'd really like to see how NX and other titles will work here. 
<<<
Easily do-able -- I deliberately started simple, with just the three books, but I've got some placement ideas for NX and X #161-164, among others -- ideas that may help with the "Gambit in NX #3" thing, as well. 


Quote: 
>>>
Can I assume that Sabretooth dons his traditional orange/brown costume upon joining the Brotherhood after WX3 28? 
<<<

Beats me -- I don't actually own X #161-164, and I don't recall offhand what costume Sabes was wearing in WX2 #26-28. But I do maintain that he appears in X #161 directly after WX2 #28 -- so whatever costume changes he might make, I support them. 


Quote: 
>>>
could we have Sabes appear in his four-issue mini and in Identity Disc after joining the Brotherhood but before X 161? 
<<<

Eh ... possibly but not likely. It seems like the Brotherhood was gathered purely for that one specific strike against the X-Men, and I don't know if Sabes would have a lot of time for going off on his own, "being a member" but not actively plotting with them to kill the X-Men. 


Quote: 
>>>
An analysis of W3 13-19 would be really handy at this point, as would some notes on W3 20-21. 
<<<

W3 #12-19 are at the very tip-top of my list of things to finish (which means, I know, nothing -- I'll work on it) ... but I don't own #20-21. I can tell you, though, that in a recent interview Chris Claremont said that UX #460 would "catch us up with the events in Wolverine" -- which I assume means that W3 #20-25 occur between UX #459-460. 


Quote: 
>>>
[creating a gap in ASTONX3 #1] wouldn't necessarily solve all the problems created by the mess that is Reload 
<<<

Actually, from my way of looking at things it looks like it'll solve quite a few. What problems are left? The Beast's costume in Disassembled, and...? 

I'm pleased to see that you're considering my idea -- if not via the method I suggested, at least you're turning on to the notion that a gap in ASTONX3 #1 would be a great thing for all parties. If you want to say that Kavita made two speeches -- or that the first one was a practice speech -- I'll get behind you on that. I'm not married to the "panel-resequencing" theory -- but I *am* sold that there has to be a gap at that point in the issue. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Jan 2005 11:17 am    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, as to some ancillary books: 

Rogue v3 #1-6 have a fairly easy placement: due to Gambit's blindness and the Juggernaut's presence on the team, they occur between X #160 (the end of the arc that blinded Gambit) and X #161 (the beginning of the arc that eliminated the Juggernaut). 

Speaking of blind Gambit ... there's just no getting around the fact that he *should* be blind in NX #3. He was blinded the same day Jay Guthrie arrived at the school (so, prior to NX #1), and he was healed in X #165, a Christmas story ... which would be very very difficult to slot into the very-start-of-the-semester theme of NX #1-4, unless we want to declare the holiday season 100% topical, and find a large gap in NX #1-3 in which to fit all X-books that occur before X #165. 

So -- if we assume that he's blind in NX #3, even though he's not wearing his bandages, where can we place it? 

I recommend placing it between X #160 and ROGUE3 #1 ... in X #163, Gambit mentions that the bandages are on because of doctor's orders ... and he's wearing them in the ROGUE3 arc. So, if we just assume that NX #3 occurs *before* he was ordered to start wearing the bandages, that explains things nicely. (Remember, the bandages in X #157-160 were just makeshift strips of cloth -- not the same ones he was ordered to wear, which were presumably sterile and such.) 

That gives us this order: 

X #157-160 
NX #1-6 
ROGUE3 #1-6 
X #161-164 

UX #444 (12-23) and #445-449 occur sometime after X #160 as well, but I'm not sure where to place them in there. However, based on Logan's unfamiliarity with the XSE, as well as Sam's dialogue about his mother calling and reaming him out about Jay's flight on TV, I'd be inclined to place them early on -- shortly after Jay was caught on tape. (Which, as all followers of these threads know, was UX #444 pp.8-11 -- which now occur between pp.22-23 of X #157.) 

Also, because of the start-of-semester feel of NX #1-6, I wouldn't mind putting them in the gap I've created in ASTONX3 #1 ... but I don't know if Rogue and X-Men #161-164 should go in the gap too. 

I'm inclined to keep the gap small ... there are references in ASTONX3 #2-6 to events prior to the gap in #1 (such as, after Logan fights the Beast in #3, Kitty asks if he's going to fight *everyone* ... a reference to his fight with Scott in #1) ... and based on my precious publication order, Rogue v3 #6 and X-Men #164 were published after Astonishing v3 #6 ... so my TENTATIVE suggested order is as follows: 

ASTONX3 #1 pp.1-18 
UX #444 pp.1-7 
X #157 pp.1-22 
UX #444 pp.8-11 
X #157 pp.23-25 
X #158-160 
UX #444 pp.12-23 
UX #445-449 
*NX #1-6 
ASTONX3 #1 pp.19-24 
ASTONX3 #2-6 
*ROGUE3 #1-6 
*X #161-164 

Next up: off-the-cuff placements for EXCAL3, ID, WX2, XFO2, later UX and X issues, and some easily-placed XU2 issues. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Jan 2005 02:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Next up: off-the-cuff placements for EXCAL3, ID, WX2, XFO2, later UX and X issues, and some easily-placed XU2 issues. 
<<<

And here they are! Well, okay, not XU2. 

Okay, so -- IF the fantasy sequence in Identity Disc #1 is correct, then the series occurs after Cyclops switches to his ReLoad costume (ASTONX3 #1 p.18), and during a time when the Juggernaut is wearing a gray outfit (before X #157, or between X #160-161). 

IF Sabretooth joins up with the Brotherhood (X #161) immediately after WX2 #26-28, then he must appear in ID #1-5 before WX2 #26. 

Mr. Sinister leaves for Genosha at the end of WX2 #28 -- and Prof. X detects his presence there in EXCAL3 #5. X-Corps in Africa and Asia are attacked in that issue, and in #8, Magneto senses the Scarlet Witch's peril -- and rescues her from the events of A #500-503. 

Cable & Deadpool #7-12 occur after the X-Men don their ReLoad costumes (ASTONX3 #1 p.17 again), and Cable is lobotomized in #10. Interviews with Nicieza have indicated that he'll recover at the end of #12, vastly depowered. 

X-Force v2 occurs after the attacks on X-Corp, after Cable's recovery and de-powering, and after Cannonball has recovered from the broken leg suffered in UX #447. 

UX #452-454 occur after Sunspot rejoins X-Force -- and in these issues, he reveals himself to also be allied with the Hellfire Club. 

I believe that X #165 occurs between UX #454-455. It most certainly occurs before #455, due to X-23's presence -- and I believe there's a reference to Sunspot being a member of the Hellfire Club in there, placing it after UX #454. 

New X-Men #7-9 occur after X #165, as Gambit is sighted. 


These clues, combined, allow us to derive three partial orders of events: 

ASTONX3 #1 pp.1-18 
ID #1-5 
WX2 #26-28 
X #161-164 
X #165 
NX #7-9 

and 

ASTONX3 #1 pp.1-18 
ID #1-5 
WX2 #26-28 
EXCAL3 #5-7 
A #500-503 
EXCAL3 #8 

and 

ASTONX3 #1 pp.1-18 
ID #1-5 
WX2 #26-28 
EXCAL3 #5-7 
XFO2 #1-6 
UX #452-454 
X #165 
NX #7-9 

and in that third list, somewhere between ASTONX3 #1 p.18 and XFO2 #1-6, goes C&D #7-12, and UX #444 pp.12-23 and #445-449. 

I don't have enough clues to merge these three lists any further, or to merge it with my proposed "main spine" of ASTONX3, X, and UX -- does anyone else have any clues that I've overlooked? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Jan 2005 10:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
If you'd like to rationalize Kavita's backstage scene on p.18 as being for a different speech, or for a practice speech, or what-have-you -- using the "Stark at the U.N." rationale -- that's great!  
<<<

Actually, I should have put a winking emoticon on that remark I made about two different speeches. The dialog in panels 1 and 2 of page 18 make it pretty clear that the reference is to the world-changing announcement she makes on page 19. 

I do agree that drastic times call for drastic measures, and that these are drastic times. And I'm guessing that switching panels won't matter much to Russ, as doing so does not alter character chronologies. 

Maybe other folks, including the Board of Directors, can express their opinions on the chronological rearranging of panels in extenuating circumstances like this. My guess is that Paul O. is a "no." 


Quote: 
>>>
By the way, U-Man -- the outside of the new mansion looks nothing like the old one. The dialogue is basically a big goof-up on Whedon's part, and there's not much to be done about it. 
<<<

Oh yes...major goof-up. Given this, Jeph, I'll bet you're willing to note that the inconsistencies you propose in the length of Kitty's hair pales in comparison.  


Quote: 
>>>
Actually, from my way of looking at things it looks like it'll solve quite a few. What problems are left? The Beast's costume in Disassembled, and...?  
<<<

No, actually, the Beast's appearance in his Morrison leathers in Disassembled makes MORE sense with a gap in ASTONX3 1. I can have the school year at Xavier's start on time, with most folks getting their Reload outfits at that point...and I can move Disassembled to a spot on the calendar later in September (because of a combination of Spidey, She-Hulk, Iron Man, etc. considerations) and have the Beast's Reload costume held up for some reason. The end of ASTONX3 1 can occur after this. 

AND, allowing more time between the start of the school semester and Disassembled makes room for -- ta da! -- SPECSM 15-20 -- in which we see Reload costumes and (cough, cough) the Vision. 


Quote: 
>>>
I recommend placing it between X #160 and ROGUE3 #1 ... in X #163, Gambit mentions that the bandages are on because of doctor's orders ... and he's wearing them in the ROGUE3 arc. So, if we just assume that NX #3 occurs *before* he was ordered to start wearing the bandages, that explains things nicely. (Remember, the bandages in X #157-160 were just makeshift strips of cloth -- not the same ones he was ordered to wear, which were presumably sterile and such.)  
<<<

We're on the same page here. I came to the same conclusion.  


Quote: 
>>>
Also, because of the start-of-semester feel of NX #1-6, I wouldn't mind putting them in the gap I've created in ASTONX3 #1 ... but I don't know if Rogue and X-Men #161-164 should go in the gap too.  
<<<

NX 1-6 is definitely start of the semester and should go in the gap. I'm leaning toward placing UX 444 (12-23) and UX 445-449 in the gap of days that separates pages 17 and 18 of NX 2, just to get NX 1 that much closer to X 157 and ASTONX3 1 (1-18). 

I'm disinclined to put X 161-164 in the gap, as you are. More on ROGUE below. 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't have enough clues to merge these three lists any further, or to merge it with my proposed "main spine" of ASTONX3, X, and UX -- does anyone else have any clues that I've overlooked?  
<<<

You'll want to put Juggernaut in ID 1-5 after X 160. Juggernaut must appear in ROGUE3 1 after ID 1-5. Why? Because Beast appears in his Reload costume in that ROGUE story arc, and that places ROGUE3 1-6 after A 500-503, which you've already placed after ID 1-5. 

A side note: I'd have ROGUE3 1-6 very soon after Disassembled, given the heat wave shown in that arc (a high of 108 degrees in Mississippi). We shouldn't go beyond late September. 

About UX 444 (12-23)-449...we see the dialog -- Rachel: Hows your mom feel about that? Sam: She enrolled Jay at the Institute, and of course he totally hates it, which means he hates me. To me, that places UX 449 before XU 3/2, in which the two brothers appear to come to an understanding. Now given that Sam's leg is "broken" in UX 446, we'd need enough time to pass between UX 449 and XU 3/2 for that leg to heal. And then Sam leaves Xavier's after XU 3/2. 

More later. I'm going to be posting a reorganized sequence of X-stories clues in the same exhaustive detail as previous posts, but with updates, new clues, and new interpretations edited in. 

Oh, one last thing...one issue in and the placement of XPE is "bugging" me already -- fireflies?!?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Jan 2005 10:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Cable & Deadpool #7-12 occur after the X-Men don their ReLoad costumes (ASTONX3 #1 p.17 again), 
<<<

Just noticed this. C&DP 6 also features the Astonishing team in their Reload outfits. This includes Beast. Thus C&DP 6-12 need to go after A 503.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Jan 2005 11:13 pm    
By Dhall

[quote]Now given that Sam's leg is "broken" in UX 446, we'd need enough time to pass between UX 449 and XU 3/2 for that leg to heal.[/quote] 

Not necessarily, they have two instant healers at the mansion, Archangel, and the kid from New X-Men who's name escapes me at the moment. It would take a few minutes for one of them to heal Sam's leg. 

It does look like the Astonishing gap is going to solve some problems.... 

Dave H

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Posted: 25 Jan 2005 11:25 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul, I don't quite follow you here: 

Quote: 
>>>
You'll want to put Juggernaut in ID 1-5 after X 160. Juggernaut must appear in ROGUE3 1 after ID 1-5. Why? Because Beast appears in his Reload costume in that ROGUE story arc, and that places ROGUE3 1-6 after A 500-503, which you've already placed after ID 1-5. 
<<<

You're trying to say that ID #1-5 should occur between X #160-161, rather than before X #157, right? But I don't get the logic. 

You've managed to confirm that ROGUE3 #1-4 must occur after A #500-503. We've also confirmed that ID #1-5 need to occur *before* A #500-503 -- and X #161-164 occur after ROGUE3 #1-6 -- giving us this order: 

ID #1-5 
A #500-503 
ROGUE3 #1-6 
X #161-164 

...So, how does that prove that X #157-160 need to occur before ID #1-5? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Jan 2005 07:04 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It doesn't. Two separate points here. 

1) Place ID 1-5 after X 160. I figured the reasoning went without saying. X 157-160 occur at the beginning of the semester, so we don't want to put the week that ID 1-5 takes to occur between ASTONX3 1 (1-18) and X 157. 

2) Place ROGUE3 1-5 after A 503. 

Sorry that wasn't clear.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Jan 2005 07:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Not necessarily, they have two instant healers at the mansion, Archangel, and the kid from New X-Men who's name escapes me at the moment. It would take a few minutes for one of them to heal Sam's leg. 
<<<


Ah, good point. And you're thinking of Elixir.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Jan 2005 09:43 am    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, gotcha. I had actually always theorized that Jay Guthrie arrived late -- after the semester had started (well, after Emma's opening speech in ASTONX3 #1, anyway), and Cyclops' formal tour in NX #1 for that group of six students was a tour for latecomers. 

However, I guess splitting up the student body into squads would be a start-of-semester thing to do ... so if NX #1-6 occur at the start of the semester, then so too should X #157. 

Also, there's Juggy's costume to consider. How many times did we see him in orange-and-brown, post-UX #426? As far as I know, only twice: UX #442 and X #157-160. All other times, he's been in grey. (Hmm, wait -- what color was his outfit in ROGUE3 #1?) 

Anyway, if he's only been back in orange on two consecutive occasions, we shouldn't put ID #1, where he's in grey, in-between them. 

Of course, pushing ID #1-5 up past X #160 means pushing WX2 #26-28, EXCAL3 #5-7 and everything else up a bit as well ... but I guess it's not that big of a push, really -- X #157-160 occur over what, one day? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Jan 2005 12:22 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, using the tidbits just mentioned  Beasts ReLoad costume in C&D #6 (pp.17-21) and ROGUE3 #1, and the notion that ID #1-5 take too long to occur prior to X #157, I was able to merge the lists to get this fairly confirmable (ie, based on factual evidence, costume and otherwise) order: 

ASTONX3 #1 pp.1-18 
UX #444 pp.1-7 
X #157 pp.1-22 
UX #444 pp.8-11 
X #157 pp.23-25 
X #158-160 
ID #1-5 
WX2 #26-28 
EXCAL3 #5-7 
A #500-503 
EXCAL3 #8 
C&D #6 pp.17-21 
C&D #7-12 
XFO2 #1-6 
UX #452-454 
X #165 
NX #7-9 

That leaves out a few books, but Ive got some placement theories for most of them: 

NX #1-6 probably fit between X #160 and ID #1, because they occur right at the beginning of the school year, after Jay Guthries arrival in X #157. 

And based on the Beasts Morrison outfit during Disassembled, ASTONX3 #1 pp.19-24 and #2-6 fit somewhere after EXCAL3 #8. Also, they likely fit *before* C&D #6, given that in the ASTONX3 issues, Nick Fury doesnt seem to trust the X-Men, and in the C&D issues the X-Men are volunteering to work with SHIELD. 

UX #444 pp.12-23 and #445-449 fit somewhere between X #160 and XFO2 #1-6. I had theorized placing them before NX #1-6, but I dont have much of a basis for that, other than assuming that Jays flight footage was aired fairly shortly after being shot. (Also, if we place them this early, it leaves room for XU2 #3/2  the Cannonball/Icarus story  to occur before Sam leaves the mansion and joins X-Force. Heck, Icarus guilt-trip to Sam about never being around for his family could have been Sams impetus to temporarily retire and buy a house back home.) 

Making those three assumptions allows me to generate this fairly comfortable list: 

ASTONX3 #1 pp.1-18 
UX #444 pp.1-7 
X #157 pp.1-22 
UX #444 pp.8-11 
X #157 pp.23-25 
X #158-160 
UX #444 pp.12-23 
UX #445-449 
NX #1-6 
ID #1-5 
WX2 #26-28 
EXCAL3 #5-7 
A #500-503 
EXCAL3 #8 
ASTONX3 #1 pp.19-24 
ASTONX3 #2-6 
C&D #6 pp.17-21 
C&D #7-12 
XFO2 #1-6 
UX #452-454 
X #165 
NX #7-9 

And, out of the books weve discussed, these are the only pieces I cant yet make fit. 

- UX #450-451 fit somewhere between UX #449 and #452, but other than that I dont have any info. 
- X #161-164 fit somewhere between EXCAL3 #8 and X #165. 
- ROGUE3 #1-6 fit somewhere between EXCAL3 #8 and X #161-164  wherever X #161-164 end up. (Weve theorized that ROGUE3 #1-6 occur after ASTONX3 #1-6, but thats just based on publication order and doesnt hold much water.) 

Also, its notable that, per a writer comment that Gambit v4 occurs after Gambits blindness is cured, GAM4 #1-6 occur sometime after X #165. 

Wow. All this, falling neatly and easily into place, just from poking a hole in ASTONX3 #1! This is fantastic  were finally making some (gasp!) actual progress. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Jan 2005 08:53 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
AND, allowing more time between the start of the school semester and Disassembled makes room for -- ta da! -- SPECSM 15-20 -- in which we see Reload costumes and (cough, cough) the Vision. 
<<<

Wow, I can't believe you just went there! Good on ya! 

That reminds me, I need to re-send that e-mail to Tom Brevoort... 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 28 Jan 2005 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 27 Jan 2005 10:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
ASTONX3 #1 pp.1-18 
UX #444 pp.1-7 
X #157 pp.1-22 
UX #444 pp.8-11 
X #157 pp.23-25 
X #158-160 
UX #444 pp.12-23 
UX #445-449 
NX #1-6 
ID #1-5 
WX2 #26-28 
EXCAL3 #5-7 
A #500-503 
EXCAL3 #8 
ASTONX3 #1 pp.19-24 
ASTONX3 #2-6 
C&D #6 pp.17-21 
C&D #7-12 
XFO2 #1-6 
UX #452-454 
X #165 
NX #7-9 
<<<


I agree with this order for the most part, with a couple of suggestions for changes: 
1) Consider placing UX 444 (1-7) before ASTONX3 1 (1-18), based on the clueless Scott during the ball game. 
2) Consider dividing NX 2 into two segments, with pages 18-23 occurring the Monday after pages 1-17. Place NX 1 and NX 2 (1-17) before UX 444 (12-23) to get the beginning of school in NX closer to the beginnings in UX 444 and X 157. NX 2 (18-23), NX 3-5, and NX 6 (1-18) would go where NX 1-6 is. 
3) Consider dividing NX 6 into two segments, with pages 19-22 occurring "two weeks" after pages 1-18. I have NX 6 (19-22) after ID 1-5 based on time passage on the calendar. 
4) I have ROGUE3 1-6 after ASTONX3 6 (following that publication order theory). 
5) I have X 161-164 after ROGUE3 1-6 as you note, and before C&D 6 (17-21). 
6) I have UX 450-451 immediately before UX 452; I interpret UX 452 as occurring the day after UX 451. 

I have tentative placements for other X-appearances around this time (WX2 19-25, XU 4-6, SABRETOOTH 1-4, M/HOL '04 1/2), some based on calendar placements of other families of titles (M/KSM 6, SPECSM 20, A:FINALE). And I'm even giving tentative date assignments to things. 

In addition to W3 13-19, missing links include DX 1-6, NC3 1-6, and JUB 1-6. And now, with Reload Wolverine showing up in MYS 23, it looks like not all of Mystique's issues pre-date this period. 

I may be posting another fully cited list this weekend.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Jan 2005 12:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
1) Consider placing UX 444 (1-7) before ASTONX3 1 (1-18), based on the clueless Scott during the ball game. 
<<<

I'd really rather not. Again: I didn't read Scott's line as "clueless", I read it as him challenging Logan. "What's that supposed to mean?" as in "don't pussyfoot around, say what you want to say". 

And, to be honest, the fact that Kitty, Lockheed and Logan are PRESENT is a bigger placement clue to me than Scott's line. 

Basically, it looks to me like when Logan returns in ASTONX3 #1, this is the first time he's witnessed the extent of Scott and Emma's relationship -- he reacts very very strongly. If Logan had witnessed their relationship shortly prior, at the baseball game in UX #444, I doubt he'd have reacted as strongly in ASTONX3 #1. 

To me, Logan's behavior at the game is that of post-ASTONX3#1 disobedience -- "you may have put me on your squad, Summers, but there's no reason I have to play ball on your team" -- and Cyclops is rising to his challenge. 

And again, if this disobedience IS where Scott gets the idea to assign Logan to all the squads, then it works better placed *just* before X #157 than it does placed before ASTONX3 #1. (Remember, Logan is "elsewhere" for some time prior to ASTONX3 #1, so UX #444 must also be pushed back to accomodate that.) It looks like Logan is *just* getting the news that he's on all the squads in X #157 ... I'm inclined to place his act of loyalty to Storm's team, and disloyalty to Scott's, close to it. 

Also -- it looks like the intent of ASTONX3 #1 is that Kitty, Logan and Lockheed have all been away from the mansion for quite some time -- since XX #46, at least. Placing UX #444 pp.1-7 where I'm suggesting allows that intent to stand. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Jan 2005 09:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
Basically, it looks to me like when Logan returns in ASTONX3 #1, this is the first time he's witnessed the extent of Scott and Emma's relationship -- he reacts very very strongly.  
<<<

Inquiry: After the destruction caused by Xorneto, Logan goes to Genosha with Xavier. A couple of months later, he turns up in ASTONX3 1. IIRC, though, Logan was back at the Institute at least once during that span of time -- in WX2 18-FB/WX2 15. If that's right, then I think you're suggesting that Logan really wasn't there long enough to get the full extent of Scott and Emma's relationship. Right? 

It seems like we should put all of Logan's appearances in WX2 through issue #25 in that summer gap. Maybe W2 13-19 too, but we'll see...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Jan 2005 09:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm trying to place recent issues of MYSTIQUE into this chronology. Given Logan's Reload costume in this week's issue #23, they have to occur during this time period. The question is when. Perhaps a clue is provided by a character who shows up with Xavier's young charges in Genosha on page 7, panel 5 of MYSTIQUE #23. In this panel we see Karima, Shola, Freakshow, Wicked, and a character I don't recognize. He reminds me of the old Jack Frost from early Tales of Suspense issues with Iron Man. Has this character been seen before? Or maybe he has yet to be introduced in XCAL3, which means that this Mystique storyline would have to occur after Disassembled. Insights?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Jan 2005 10:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I think you're suggesting that Logan really wasn't there long enough to get the full extent of Scott and Emma's relationship. Right? 
<<<

Exactly right, yes. I think he's been avoiding the mansion and the X-Men since Jean died ... he spent a lot of time in W3 (#8-19) in entirely different portions of the US, and we know his Weapon X investigation (WX2 #15-25) occurs in this time period as well. Even if he did know that Scott and Emma were interested in each other, I'm sure he was shocked and disgusted to find them sleeping together so soon. Hence his bedroom reaction upon his return in ASTONX3 #1 ... and his subsequent rudeness/disloyalty at the baseball game. 


Quote: 
>>>
Maybe W2 13-19 too, but we'll see... 
<<<

I'm actually working on those issues *right now*. Early indication? "Spring", during a full moon. Ugh. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Jan 2005 01:16 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Early indication? "Spring",  
<<<

That's okay. I'm sure that W3 13-19 take place in the southern hemisphere. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Jan 2005 01:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

If by "southern hemisphere" you mean "British Columbia", then yes.  

I've commented elsewhere that Greg Rucka displays a solid sense of time passing in his W3 stories -- they're just the *wrong* times. Witness: 

XU #38 takes place on the one-year anniversary of Colossus' death -- an event that we placed shortly after the Christmas in X #109. It follows that this is late December or early January -- but Rucka shows us fall foliage. 

W3 #1-6 occurs "three or four months" after XU #38, and "a couple months" after "December". That works if XU #38 occured in the fall. 

W3 #7-11 "might've been a couple months" after W3 #1-6 -- "two months" if you take the recap page as canon. There's snow in Illinois, which works if this occurs in early April. 

W3 #12-19 occur in "spring", and seem to follow fairly directly from W3 #7-11. 

So, Rucka does have his temporal-reference house in order ... it just doesn't sync up with the bigger picture, starting with Colossus' death after Christmas and ending with the temptation to place Wolvie's wanderlust in #7-19 as a reaction to Jean's death in the summer of X #150. 

I'm done analyzing #12-15 at the moment -- and it looks like I'm going to recommend placement for all of #7-19 in the gap between UX #443 and ASTONX3 #1. The temporal references do not fit at ALL, I know, but I like 'em there anyway. (I predict, though, that you'll want to place them somewhere back in April ... am I right?) 

I hope to be done with the analysis soon -- I was down with a killer flu this week, so I've had more spare time than usual, but I haven't been as coherent.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Jan 2005 02:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
(I predict, though, that you'll want to place them somewhere back in April ... am I right?)  
<<<

Nope, no way. These issues are going to have to happen between the destruction of the Institute at the beginning of summer and the start of the new school semester in late summer. As you note, Rucka has his own internal continuity, but it just doesn't jibe with the bigger picture, which has many more, and I suspect more critical, temporal clues than his stories do. It's too bad, but Rucka's references will be deemed "topical."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jan 2005 05:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Late-breaking news -- I managed to pick up the following X-comics in the quarter bin of my comic store today, and I'll see about working them into the chronology: 

DISTRICT X #1-3, 5-6 (still missing DX 4) 
JUBILEE #1-2 
GAMBIT v4 #3 (granted, it's after this time period...)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jan 2005 10:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
missing links include DX 1-6, NC3 1-6, and JUB 1-6. 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Late-breaking news -- I managed to pick up DISTRICT X #1-3, 5-6 [and] JUBILEE #1-2 
<<<

I have Jubilee #3 and District X #4. Now, what does "NC3" stand for? 

[EDIT: Got it -- Nightcrawler v3. Sorry, can't help there just yet...] 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 31 Jan 2005 06:51 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I have Jubilee #3 and District X #4.  
<<<

Jeph, I'm inclined to place DX 1-6 early in this period. Not a whole lot to base that on, other than the green grass and trees and the light clothing. Mrs. Ortega is a teacher who is grading a paper in issue #3, so it's probably during the school season. Interestingly, there are no references to the kids shown in this story actually going to school. Are there any telling references in issue #4? I assume (from the synopsis for issue #4 that's printed in issue #5) that issue #4 continues directly from issue #3 and occurs during one evening. Is that right?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Jan 2005 10:13 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Late-breaking news -- I managed to pick up the following X-comics in the quarter bin of my comic store today, and I'll see about working them into the chronology: 

DISTRICT X #1-3, 5-6 (still missing DX 4) 
JUBILEE #1-2 
GAMBIT v4 #3 (granted, it's after this time period...) 
<<<

Oh, I see how it is! Go ahead and get the issues from the others who aren't turning in their comic reviews, yet don't pick up any issues that I've agreed to do reviews for! It's because I'm actually turning my issue reviews in on a somewhat regular basis, right? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 31 Jan 2005 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Bwah-hah-hah....!!! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Jan 2005 10:55 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I assume (from the synopsis for issue #4 that's printed in issue #5) that issue #4 continues directly from issue #3 and occurs during one evening. Is that right? 
<<<

Not quite.  

DX #3 ends with Dana Hutton dying from a Toad Juice overdose. DX #4 opens with the police on the scene investigating the death -- it's not a *direct* continuation. 

If you presume that DX #4 opens after midnight, and thus "early in the morning", then the issue does take place over "one day". The end of the issue -- the party where everyone dies, which we pick up on in the beginning of DX #5 -- is the night *after* Dana dies at the club in #3. 

Other chronology notes: 

- Bishop and Ortega watch the security footage of Dana's boyfriend stealing the Toad Juice -- and it may contain new scenes. 

- There's a flashback (17p5-6) to Mr. M's childhood, "thirty years" ago in Belgium. 

- Mr. M says that he confronted Izzy's partner "in the past three days". 

Hope that helps for now... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Feb 2005 07:26 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Hope that helps for now...  
<<<

Yes, it does. Thanks, Jeph. 

An update on other books... 

1) JUBILEE #1 is presumed to occur later the same day as the end of M/TU3 2. In the latter, she's leaving the Institute for L.A. In the former, she arrives in L.A. The question will be whether the JUBILEE series (and thus the M/TU3 series) occurs before or after Jubilee appears in X 165, a Christmas season story. Any more clues in JUB 3? 

2) DISTRICT X #1-6 will need to be placed during the school year and before UX 450. 

3) I'm thinking of putting MYSTIQUE #14-24 during this time period because of Logan's Reload costume in MYS 23. The question is whether Xavier's appearances in these MYS issues occur before or after the current XCAL3 story line, which is tied to Disassembled. There's a gap of "more than three weeks" between pages 6 and 7 of MYS 20 to factor in as well.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Feb 2005 08:44 am
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Any more clues in JUB 3? 
<<<

Nope.  

By the way, I just noticed that Wolverine appears in DX #4, standing in the background of the nightclub in one panel (4p4). Is this an actual appearance, do you think, or some kind of art joke? 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 02 Feb 2005 08:32 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 01 Feb 2005 10:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
By the way, I just noticed that Wolverine appears in DX #4, standing in the background of the nightclub in one panel (4p4). 
Is this an actual appearance, do you think, or some kind of art joke? 
<<<

Well, I can't see any good reason why he couldn't be there. Why wouldn't Wolverine go to a bar in District X? 

I assume the character in question is in street clothes? Speaking of Logan, I also picked up issues #1, 4, and 5 of last year's WOLVERINE/PUNISHER mini-series. My inclination is to place that title in the summer before this fall semester, between PUN7 6 and 7.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Feb 2005 08:37 am    
By jephyork
Director

Paul, when you were replying to my post just now, you accidentally hit "edit" instead of "quote" -- ALTERING my post into a reply to itself. 

I fixed it -- but watch out in future. With great moderator power comes great responsibility.  

And yes, Wolvie's in street clothes in DX #4. I don't know why he's just standing and watching Bishop investigate -- but maybe he's sizing him up, watching how Bishop's collaboration with human police is going, in that sly Zen way Wolvie occasionally has. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Feb 2005 10:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sorry. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2005 11:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hey, I did it to you once, accidentally. Caught it before I hit "Submit", though, thank goodness. 

T-minus, like, 30 minutes for the W3 #12-19 analysis... 

[EDIT: Filthy lies, apparently. I need my sleep -- hopefully it'll be up tomorrow, early afternoon.] 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Mar 2005 01:20 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, some more clues here... 

Jubilee #4 claims that the Pride vanished from the streets of LA "a few weeks ago". I'm not sure what issue of Runaways that's a reference to, but Runaways as a whole is pre-Disassembled, by virtue of the Avengers cameo in #18. 

X-Men #162 claims that Nocturne joined the new Brotherhood "a few months back". Now, we've already put quite a lot of comics between X #160-161 -- but I don't want to widen that gap TOO much, because the X-Men have had Xorn II locked in the basement that whole time. That means, in order to make it "months" between Exiles #46-48 and X-Men #161-164, we should probably push Exiles #46-48 BACK. 

I recommend pushing the Exiles issues (where the X-Men are shown rebuilding the mansion) back before the final segment of XX #46 -- where the X-Men are also shown rebuilding the mansion, but have finished to the point where they have a functioning kitchen and dining room. 

And, finally, looking at Rogue v3 #1-6, I see that Juggernaut is in his traditional orange-and-brown costume -- which is a problem for our current listing order. Currently, we have him appearing in: 

UX #426-434 (gray) 
UX #442 (gray and yellow) 
X #157 (orange) 
ID #1-5 (gray) 
ROGUE3 #1-6 (orange)** 
X #161-164 (gray and yellow) 

The order of most of that is inarguable -- but the Rogue series might be able to move around. Right now, the only placement clue we have is that the Beast is wearing his ReLoad costume in ROGUE3 #1, placing it after Disassembled. However, looking at the art, it's far from clear WHAT costume the Beast is wearing. He was drawn in a lab coat, and the color artist placed leggings of SOME kind on his legs, but although they're the same color, they don't really match up to his X-diaper. 

If we ignore this as "just some wacky pants, not his ReLoad costume", we can place the ROGUE3 arc prior to ID #5 (which is unquestionably pre-Disassembled) -- and fix Juggy's costume continuity, keeping the brief blips where he returned to his orange costume together. Also, Paul, in terms of your calendar, moving ROGUE3 #1-6 back would make the heat wave in those issues easier to swallow. 

However, we'd still need some time in-between X #157-160 and ROGUE3 #1-6 -- I believe that in ROGUE3 #1 Gambit mentions that it's been some time since he was blinded, but I can't recall the reference. 

So, our options are: 

Leave ROGUE3 #1-6 where it is -- mess up Juggy's costume continuity and leave the heat wave occuring in fall, but maintain the Beast's apparent costume continuity (if that IS his X-diaper) and maintain a span of time for Gambit to have been blind. 

Move ROGUE3 #1-6 back before ID #1-5 -- potentially mess up the Beast's costume continuity, if that thing IS his X-diaper, and shorten the span of time Gambit has been blind, but fix Juggy's costume continuity and make the heat wave occur closer to summer. 

What IS the reference Gambit uses in ROGUE3 #1? Examining it might make it easier to determine which option to choose, here. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Mar 2005 02:10 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Heh -- quick update on the Nocturne reference. Although Avalanche claims that Nocturne joined the new Brotherhood "a few months ago" in X #162 -- referring to Exiles #48, which occurs after X #150 ... Wolverine says in X #163 that he met Nocturne and the Exiles "a few WEEKS ago" -- referring to Exiles #28-30, which occured back between UX #426-427. 

Ugh ... okay, go with whichever reference you like, or ignore them both... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Mar 2005 07:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
That means, in order to make it "months" between Exiles #46-48 and X-Men #161-164, we should probably push Exiles #46-48 BACK. 
<<<

Not a problem at all. I already have four months separating EXILES 46-48 and X 161-164.  

I'm about ready to post a detailed update to the X-chronology, but I'm hoping to squeeze in Kevin's notes on MADROX... (hint...) 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Mar 2005 11:10 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm about ready to post a detailed update to the X-chronology, but I'm hoping to squeeze in Kevin's notes on MADROX... (hint...)  
<<<

Have no fear, Paul, it's actually mostly done, and I'll have it posted in the next 2 to 3 days. I've fallen behind on reviews thanks to real life problems, but it's time to play catch up.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2005 11:30 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Okay, some more clues here... 

Jubilee #4 claims that the Pride vanished from the streets of LA "a few weeks ago". I'm not sure what issue of Runaways that's a reference to, but Runaways as a whole is pre-Disassembled, by virtue of the Avengers cameo in #18. 
<<<

Unfortunately, that "a few weeks ago" reference is unworkable. JUBILEE #1 follows MARVEL TEAM-UP vol 3 #2, which ends with Jubilee departing for her solo series. MTU3 2 is part of a storyline which runs directly through to MTU3 6, by which point we've got Spider-Man speaking to Captain America and describing himself as "a fellow Avenger", which seems to put THAT whole storyline after the opening arc of NEW AVENGERS. So by the time Jubilee #4 comes around, Jubilee's been in town for a few weeks, the new Avengers are up and running, and Disassembled is months in the past. 

More likely, Shane's just out on his timing.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Mar 2005 12:02 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Kirkman confirmed a while back that M/TU3 #1-2 (featuring Spider-Man and Wolverine, both now New Avengers) was originally written to take place after NA #1-6, but was re-worded by editorial to occur before that story. 

Is there room in M/TU3 #1-6 for NA #1-6 to occur? Or do we need to figure out which reference to ditch -- editorial's original pre-NA #1 intent for M/TU3 #1-2, or the post-NA #6 reference in M/TU #6? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 10 Mar 2005 01:01 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The rewrite on the earlier issue made the placement ambiguous, rather than expressly putting the story before NA 1. I suspect what's happened is that they just wanted to delay the New Avengers reference until the story where the team formed had actually seen print. 

As near as I can make out, there's no time to sensibly splice lengthy stories into the middle of MTU. The kid is meant to immediately reappear every time he blows up.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Mar 2005 09:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Spider-Man speaking to Captain America and describing himself as "a fellow Avenger", which seems to put THAT whole storyline after the opening arc of NEW AVENGERS. 
<<<

Not necessarily. Remember that Spider-Man has BEEN an Avenger for quite some time. He joined the team in A 316, served briefly, then rejoined for another brief stint in A 329. And as we all know, "once an Avenger, always an Avenger." So we can keep Spidey's dialog and place the M/TU3 arc before NA 1.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Mar 2005 09:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yes, but that's a more strained reading of the line. This is an issue where Spider-Man, addressing Captain America, refers to himself as Cap's "fellow Avenger", published AFTER New Avengers has him joining the team. There's nothing in the story pointing towards the arc taking place before the new Avengers are formed - the only thing that ever pointed that way was the absence of references to the Avengers, which no longer applies.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Mar 2005 10:28 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Oh, one other observation on recent X-continuity. 

Cable recruits his new X-Force team at some point between XFOR2 1-2, spurred by the events of XFOR2 1. Sunspot turns up as a member in XFOR2 2, which continues directly into XFOR2 3, at which point Sunspot turns on Cable and quits the team, never to return before the series ends. 

However, in the "Return to Hellfire" arc - UX 452-454 - Sunspot turns up and is billed as a member of X-Force. The only way this works if it UX 452-454 take place between XFOR2 1-2, and after Sunspot was recruited into X-Force. 

Granted, this drags XFOR2 2 away from the attacks on X-Corp which is referenced in that issue - presumably intended to be the one from XCAL3 5. But it's not specified that the attack was in recent days or even weeks, merely that it's something which is still a concern for X-Corp, and they'd be sorting out the fall-out from that attack for ages.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Mar 2005 08:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Cable recruits his new X-Force team at some point between XFOR2 1-2, spurred by the events of XFOR2 1. Sunspot turns up as a member in XFOR2 2, which continues directly into XFOR2 3, at which point Sunspot turns on Cable and quits the team, never to return before the series ends. 

However, in the "Return to Hellfire" arc - UX 452-454 - Sunspot turns up and is billed as a member of X-Force. The only way this works if it UX 452-454 take place between XFOR2 1-2, and after Sunspot was recruited into X-Force.  
<<<

Hold on now. I think it's a little early to determine a definitive placement here, and what you suggest isn't necessarily our only option. I have an theory that Sunspot appears in UX 452-454 after XFOR2 6. Why? 

1) It really looks like Sunspot and Warpath are just joining Cable in XFOR2 2. Warpath notes, "But how does this affect any of us now, Cable? Roberto and I both have responsibilities to X-Corp  especially now that theyve come under attack." To me it reads like this, "okay, Cable, we're here. What do you want?" It doesn't appear that Roberto and James were allied with Cable long enough before this for the grapevine to associate Sunspot with "Cable's cause." 

2) So if Roberto actually joins in XFOR2 2 and promptly leaves Cable in XFOR2 3, then there's no time for him to appear in UX 452-454. So what if Sunspot, after Cable's apparent sacrifice in XFOR2 6, joins X-Force ("Cable's cause," as noted in UX 453), *then* appears in UX 452-454? 

3) A reference from X 165 may support this theory. In that issue, the narration notes that Cannonball is "playing hooky from X-Force." Well, Sam never was an official member of that team in XFOR2 1-6; in fact, he was opposing Cable for a chunk of that series. This suggests to me that Sam may join X-Force after Cable's apparent sacrifice in XFOR2 6. And if Sam can do it, why not Roberto? 

Like I say, it's too early to come to a definitive conclusion. We'll have to wait and see how new X-Force plots play out...somewhere.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Mar 2005 08:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Yes, but that's a more strained reading of the line. This is an issue where Spider-Man, addressing Captain America, refers to himself as Cap's "fellow Avenger", published AFTER New Avengers has him joining the team. There's nothing in the story pointing towards the arc taking place before the new Avengers are formed - the only thing that ever pointed that way was the absence of references to the Avengers, which no longer applies. 
<<<

Well, the first time I read Spidey's "fellow Avenger" line within the context of the dialog, it appeared a bit flippant, a suggestion of a close relationship that didn't really exist. But for me what may lend more credence to a placement of M/TU3 1-6 after the first NA story arc is Spidey's calling Cap "Steve" instead of "Cap." Based on that, I'll concede this chronological order until such time (if any) that stronger evidence suggests placement of M/TU3 1-6 before NA 1.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Mar 2005 11:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Based on that, I'll concede this chronological order until such time (if any) that stronger evidence suggests placement of M/TU3 1-6 before NA 1. 
<<<

Gasp! But ... but ... editorial intent!  

Aw, heck, I'm with you. It makes Spidey's joke from #2 about Wolverine being on "so many teams" have some meaning, at any rate. And it lines placement up with the writer's intent... 


Quote: 
>>>
In that issue, the narration notes that Cannonball is "playing hooky from X-Force." ... This suggests to me that Sam may join X-Force after Cable's apparent sacrifice in XFOR2 6. And if Sam can do it, why not Roberto? 
<<<

The way I read both references was, Claremont had no idea what was going on in "X-Force" when he wrote the issues. I doubt they'll end up referring to ANYthing of value. 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 11 Mar 2005 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 11 Mar 2005 11:27 pm    
By jannepie

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
1) It really looks like Sunspot and Warpath are just joining Cable in XFOR2 2. Warpath notes, "But how does this affect any of us now, Cable? Roberto and I both have responsibilities to X-Corp  especially now that theyve come under attack." To me it reads like this, "okay, Cable, we're here. What do you want?" It doesn't appear that Roberto and James were allied with Cable long enough before this for the grapevine to associate Sunspot with "Cable's cause." 

2) So if Roberto actually joins in XFOR2 2 and promptly leaves Cable in XFOR2 3, then there's no time for him to appear in UX 452-454. So what if Sunspot, after Cable's apparent sacrifice in XFOR2 6, joins X-Force ("Cable's cause," as noted in UX 453), *then* appears in UX 452-454? 
<<< 


1) Well, Cable waited and waited before telling about the Skornn. 

2) Sunspot and Warpath joined BTS between XFOR2 1 and 2. There could be time before XFOR2 2 . 

But you're right, it's too early to determine which one comes first.

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Posted: 12 Mar 2005 05:16 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
3) A reference from X 165 may support this theory. In that issue, the narration notes that Cannonball is "playing hooky from X-Force." Well, Sam never was an official member of that team in XFOR2 1-6; in fact, he was opposing Cable for a chunk of that series. This suggests to me that Sam may join X-Force after Cable's apparent sacrifice in XFOR2 6. And if Sam can do it, why not Roberto? 


That's a good point, although I suspect as things turn out it's simply going to end up as a continuity error. X-FORCE was obviously planned as an ongoing series - it even has subplot scenes setting up future arcs, such as the Lady Anime sequence in issue #3 - but in practice it's all just left up in the air. Presumably Nicieza will untangle some of it in CABLE & DEADPOOL, but I have my doubts that any form of X-Force team is going to stick around for Sunspot or Cannonball to join. Claremont is simply referencing stories which he was told to expect, but which have now been abandoned. The Sunspot reference can be made to fit; the Cannonball one, as matters presently stand, is just plain wrong.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Mar 2005 06:40 am    
By Somebody

For reference, Excalibur #11 includes a six-month gap inside the issue. 

And, if you take the opening scene as being before the Mags/Prof X scene which follows it, A503 must be post-Reload

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Posted: 24 Mar 2005 07:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
For reference, Excalibur #11 includes a six-month gap inside the issue. 

And, if you take the opening scene as being before the Mags/Prof X scene which follows it, A503 must be post-Reload 


Yup, that six-month gap corresponds roughly with the six-month gap between A 503 and NA 1. It's a good thing, too, because Avengers and X-Men chronologies will need to mesh for HOUSE OF M. (Wow, editors of different Marvel lines in synch!) 

I interpret that opening scene as a flash-forward -- a prelude to the second portion of XCAL3 11, not the first. This will be reflected in the revised X-chronology I hope to post this weekend.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Mar 2005 08:17 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I agree with the "flash forward" theory. Otherwise, Viper and Courtney are sitting around for an awfully long time before they finally get around to pursuing their plan. I know we don't usually take scenes out of sequence except where they're expressly labelled as such, but I think it makes sense in this case. If it isn't a flash forward, how on earth did Viper squander six months on hiring a few mercenaries? 

I have a sneaking suspicion here that the "six month" gap was inserted at the scripting stage in order to fix the timeline problem.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 12:35 am    
By jephyork
Director

Re-reading this thread was fun because I got to see myself argue that MTU3 #1-6 *should* occur after A4 #1-6. Which is the opposite of my thinking now. Hmm. Jury's out, I guess. 

By the way, Paul B.: 

Quote: 
>>>
I'm trying to place recent issues of MYSTIQUE into this chronology. Given Logan's Reload costume in this week's issue #23, they have to occur during this time period. The question is when. Perhaps a clue is provided by a character who shows up with Xavier's young charges in Genosha on page 7, panel 5 of MYSTIQUE #23. In this panel we see Karima, Shola, Freakshow, Wicked, and a character I don't recognize. He reminds me of the old Jack Frost from early Tales of Suspense issues with Iron Man. Has this character been seen before? Or maybe he has yet to be introduced in XCAL3, which means that this Mystique storyline would have to occur after Disassembled. Insights? 
<<<

That's one of Wicked's ghosts. Not a new character at all. 

Some interesting stuff in this thread, and I hope to take what UX #460 has just told us and tinker with the orders I was churning out earlier. Should prove interesting... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 08:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
That's one of Wicked's ghosts. Not a new character at all.  
<<<

Thanks, Jeph.  


Quote: 
>>>
Some interesting stuff in this thread, and I hope to take what UX #460 has just told us and tinker with the orders I was churning out earlier. Should prove interesting...  
<<<

I'm doing the same, as time permits. We'll see how our conclusions compare. The interesting thing about this is how, in typical Marvel fashion (gotta love it  ), the threads of X-chronology ripple out to so many other titles, including all of Bendis' stuff, Spidey titles, the FF, and heck, even She-Hulk and Hercules. Of course, the big puzzle piece that will affect chronological order is still missing and will be for a while -- that much-anticipated final issue of Secret War.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 12:09 am    
By Chrisday

just posting what i have done elsewhere, i find this to work, but can anything here be proven wrong??? 

Edit by ADMINISTRATOR: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=8801&highlight=#8801

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:15 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Chrisday wrote: 
>>>
just posting what i have done elsewhere, 
<<<

Chrisday, don't post the same thing twice here. Just about everyone here reads every post, so it doesn't really add anything. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 06:28 pm    
By Chrisday

alright, thanks anyway.

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Thread 18

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 06:48 pm    Post subject: Not-really-new Steve Rogers - William Naslund stuff
By Adamant

Okay, I live in Norway, and we get Marvel comics later than you americans, obviously, so bear with me here. 

William Naslund became Captain America around May/June 1945 as stated in What If #4, right? 

Now, here's a problem. In Spectacular Spider-Man vol. 2 #19 Steve reveals that he was around during Operation Crossroads... the obvious problem being that this happened in July 1946. Oops. 

So how is this supposed to be handled?

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 12:01 am    
By jephyork
Director

Cap reveals only that he knows the true story *behind* Operation Crossroads. He doesn't specify that he was there. 

Presumably someone just let Cap in on the story at some point. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 19

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 02:12 am    Post subject: Maxon Red Skull question
By Adamant

I was looking through Tales of Suspense #66-#68 the other day, and noticed something. 

In this story, Cap sneaks into Germany looking for the REAL Red Skull, as he couldn't believe the one he had fought earlier (Maxon) could possibly be the one he has heard so much of. The entire story is written as if this is the first meeting between Cap and Johann Schmidt. Now, the latter half of this story takes place in England, and with all the US soldiers around, it really seems like it all takes place after the US entered the war. 

Now, was it ever really established that the Skull Cap fought in Captain America Comics #7 was Schmidt? Everyone seems to claim it, but I've never seen any actual references to this from Marvel themselves. And not only does CAC 7 take place before Pearl Harbor, but the story starts with the Skull killing off some guys who were working for him in CAC 3, and tried to get awy with the Skull's fortune... this all points in the direction of this person actually being Maxon. 

Now, I don't know when the Skull appeared next after this story (Come on, Marvel, give us more GA Cap Masterworks), and that appearance may have direct references to the Skull's supposed death in CAC 7 (he fell in the sea and didn't come back up), but by looking at CAC 7 and TOS 66-68, it definitly seems as though the Skull from CAC 7 was indeed Maxon.

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 03:10 am    
By Enda80

The Red Skull's update '89 entry confirmed that as Schmidt's first appearance.

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Thread 20

Posted: 07 Jun 2005 08:20 am    Post subject: The canonicity of giveaway books
By Dhall

-------- 
NOTE: this thread sprouted off an analysis of the "Spider-Man, Storm and Power Man" anti-smoking giveaway comic. 
-Jeph! 
-------- 

Are we REALLY sure these kind of giveaway books were meant as canon? That's never been my impression. 

Quite often the characters are acting out of character. The books were produced for an intended purpose other than being a canonical MU story, (for giveaway purposes.) 

I'm really not sure that trying to shoehorn them into chronology is a good idea.

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 10:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, it varies from case to case. Personally, I work on a presumption that giveaway books aren't canon, but there are undeniably exceptions. To my mind, the major factors are: 

(a) Is this at least broadly compatible with Marvel Universe continuity? 
(b) Is everyone acting at least loosely in character? 
(c) Did Marvel editorial have a hand in producing the book? 
(d) Does it feature obviously silly gimmick characters tying in to the product or campaign of whoever sponsored it? (Such as a smoking-themed villain - it would take an awful lot to convince me that Dr Nicotine was a canonical character in any universe.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 10:42 am    
By ShadZ

I assume you are looking for positive answers to the first three questions, and a negitive on the fourth?  

While I've seen several give-away books that would have no problems fitting into continuity (I'm thinking about the Power Pack/Spider-Man sexual abuse one, and the Avengers Charleston Chew mail-away), has a canon Marvel story ever referenced any giveaway comic? Is there any precedence for bringing giveaways into continuity?
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 10:58 am    
By Jason Doty

Paul O'Brien wrote 
>>>
Does it feature obviously silly gimmick characters tying in to the product or campaign of whoever sponsored it? (Such as a smoking-themed villain - it would take an awful lot to convince me that Dr Nicotine was a canonical character in any universe.) 
<<<

Placing a comic into continuity should never be based on whether a 
character is silly or not. Great examples of characters that are considered canon are The Great Lake Avengers and Dr. Bong. 


Paul O'Brien wrote 
>>>
Did Marvel editorial have a hand in producing the book?  
<<<

Possibly not the editorial from say Spider-Man or X-Men, but definatly someone from Marvel, or why would they use obscure characters like Magistrate Anderson or Trish Tilby, no one outside of followers of those titles would have any idea who these individuals are. Marvel also produced all of these books. 


Paul O'Brien wrote 
>>>
Is everyone acting at least loosely in character?  
<<<

That is very subjective, different writers have always had different takes on different characters. The question should be does this story contradict continuity or is it a entirely different character based on the evidence presented which always goes back to the continuity question. If Wolverine makes a baby-face at a baby does not justify it not being him, even though it is out of character. 


Paul O'Brien 
>>>
Is this at least broadly compatible with Marvel Universe continuity?  
<<<

Most of these would not make the publication year, because of changing plot lines in the monthly book. An example is this story, because if we use the publication year, it would be ruled out because we know that Storm already met Power Man prior to this story in UX 122 (or around there). So, it could be compatable by placing the story at an earlier date. 


Dhall wrote 
>>>
I'm really not sure that trying to shoehorn them into chronology is a good idea. 
<<<

Every month the collected group shoehorn's in monthly books that almost never match up completely. That is what the MCP does, try and establish continuity in the Marvel Universe. What makes this any different? Everyone always says "intent." Well, the intent was probally to get kids not to use tobaco using their popular characters to get this message out. I'm for getting anything printed in so long as it does not contradict established continuity. It is up to the Administrator, the board and us to debate what is exceptable, Not just say "why bother!"

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 11:45 am    
By Dhall

I think we do need to set up some tests for giveaway books, just like we did for intercompany crossovers. Note that this led to some things that I personally wouldn't have ruled in, being ruled in as canon for the MCP, and I'm okay with that. 

I would still start with the premise that all giveaway books aren't canon, unless they are ruled as such by passing said tests. Now if a book does meet some minimum hurdles, by all means I'm fine with ruling it as canon. 

Paul offers the following tests: 

>>>
(a) Is this at least broadly compatible with Marvel Universe continuity? 
(b) Is everyone acting at least loosely in character? 
(c) Did Marvel editorial have a hand in producing the book? 
(d) Does it feature obviously silly gimmick characters tying in to the product or campaign of whoever sponsored it? (Such as a smoking-themed villain - it would take an awful lot to convince me that Dr Nicotine was a canonical character in any universe.) 
<<<

For me test a would be the most important. 

Also, I wouldn't care if a product were seen in the background (Doritos van) but "obviously silly gimmick characters tying in to the product or campaign of whoever sponsored it?" would also raise some red flags for me.....

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 11:49 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
It is up to the Administrator, the board and us to debate what is exceptable, Not just say "why bother!" 
<<<

Straw man. No one said that; we're simply debating the issue. I think you're ignoring Paul's intent here. He did, after all, begin his explanation with, "Personally,"... 

I agree with Paul. Personally, I don't want giveaways to be canon, because they're not usually available to the general public. I don't believe in canon stories that are only offered to a select few people. If I pay Marvel to produce one copy of a comic book, just for me, I wouldn't consider that book canon. In addition to Paul's questions previously, I also ask myself, do I believe that Marvel editorial feels bound by what occurs and what's revealed in the story? Almost always, my answer is no. 

And yes, both the question and answer are subjective. Of course they are. That's the meaning of "Personally..." 

But that's just me. 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 12:23 pm    
By Jason Doty

I'm not picking a fight or trying to insult anyone, and I did understand his intent, but did not agree with his personal opinion about silly characters. My apologizes to Paul. 

I agree with him and David about having a test, but it should be based on chronolgical issues, not toward personal bias to a story. Bringing up a comment by Jeph in another giveaway discussion, he did not by a Janitor inventing a time machine or in another a talking cat, but as a community we will accept a kid finding a Sentinel and repairing it or a talking Duck from another universe. I truely believe in the Marvel Universe anything could happen. 

As far as the giveaways being scarce, they are by all means made for the public, or I would not have been able to come by them. MAX comics are only solicited through the comic shops, and we except those based on there canocity, as well as Wizard 1/2 issues even though they are also scarce. Comics solicited by Marvel overseas are now being debated, were these made available to the stateside audiance? Captain Britain is another hard to come by title, yet it is included. 

I don't know about others, but I use the project to find out what is available to collect based on the chronological value. Inclussion based on the research and fact that it does not contradict the continuity of previously established canon is the test we should observe. 

Many Marvel comics are published and never referanced again, should those be written off? That can not be part of any test for establishing continuity.

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 04:14 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Taking off the Administrator hat for a moment... 

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I truely believe in the Marvel Universe anything could happen. 
<<<

I don't. *shrug* But, again, that's just me. 


Quote: 
>>>
As far as the giveaways being scarce, they are by all means made for the public, or I would not have been able to come by them. 
<<<

No. Just...no. I'm talking about books "made for" Pizza Hut customers, made for visitors to the Texas State Fair, made for fifth grade students in the NYC school system. No different than if there was a comic "made for"...me, even if you were somehow able to get your hands on a copy, it wouldn't be canon. 


Quote: 
>>>
MAX comics are only solicited through the comic shops, and we except those based on there canocity, as well as Wizard 1/2 issues even though they are also scarce. Comics solicited by Marvel overseas are now being debated, were these made available to the stateside audiance? Captain Britain is another hard to come by title, yet it is included. 
<<<

Bravo! Excellent, thought-provoking examples, but let's look more closely at them. 

MAX: On a case-by-case basis, yes, but aren't more than half of them not canon? I know that's tangential to the point you're trying to make, which presumably is that books with limited circulation are still canon, but then again, limited circulation had nothing to do with the point *I* was trying to make, either. My point is that MAX books were made available to anyone who wanted them, through the regular, recognized channels in the industry. I'm talking here about books that weren't for sale, and yet, if you weren't part of the target audience, it wasn't given to you, either. 

WIZARD: I don't consider Wizard 1/2 issues canon, so there's no inconsistency, there. 

OVERSEAS: Perhaps you're talking about Euroforce, which was expressly brought into canon by the most recent Official Handbook. Doesn't apply. 

CAPTAIN BRITAIN: Referenced many times, in subsequent stories. 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't know about others, but I use the project to find out what is available to collect based on the chronological value. Inclussion based on the research and fact that it does not contradict the continuity of previously established canon is the test we should observe. 
<<<

Valid point. 


watching: hill street blues

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 05:26 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I'm not picking a fight or trying to insult anyone, and I did understand his intent, but did not agree with his personal opinion about silly characters. My apologizes to Paul.  
<<<

No problem. However, to deal with your examples of the GLA and Dr Bong, I think there's a subtle distinction to be drawn. 

Actually, to be more accurate, I don't think the GLA pose a problem at all. There's nothing inherently silly about the GLA. They're comedic, not conceptually absurd. They have proper powers, they're a bit dim, they're more or less what you'd expect provincial Z-list superheroes to be like within the Marvel Universe. 

Dr Bong and the other characters from HOWARD THE DUCK are in a different league. They, undoubtedly, are silly. But they are undoubtedly canon - first, because Marvel have said so consistently for decades, and second, because HOWARD THE DUCK is a spin-off from MAN-THING, which itself is indisputably canon. 

And, I think, this is where you're putting the cart before the horse. When a book is undeniably, inarguably, unavoidably canon, it will be accommodated into continuity no matter how absurd, ridiculous, error-ridden or poorly researched it may be. Because it's canon, it MUST fit. If it doesn't, then rules will be bent to accommodate it. 

Giveaway comics can't take advantage of this sort of rule-bending because they haven't yet cleared the first hurdle: establishing that they're canon in the first place. Those of them which have Spider-Man fighting villains obsessed with smoking, dental health and low-grade recycling tend to fail this test before the question of accommodating them even arises. 

I think you're falling into the same logical error when you say that a test for canonicity should be "based on chronological grounds." The question of chronology only arises if the story is canonical. Of course, it's possible to prove that a story is non-canon through the reductio ad absurdum (if this story were canonical then it wouldn't fit anywhere, therefore it isn't canon). But the reverse doesn't hold true - just because a story CAN be fitted into continuity doesn't mean that it SHOULD be.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 07:22 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul O'Brien wrote 
>>>
Giveaway comics can't take advantage of this sort of rule-bending because they haven't yet cleared the first hurdle: establishing that they're canon in the first place. 
<<<

I was not implying bending any established rule to include these within chronological bounds, I was however stating the obvious, that these are on many occations easier to place than already established cannon titles and not hard to put a placement for. If it does not fit I do not advocate shoehorning them into where they do not fit, just to get them in. 

I believe they should be reviewed based on that Marvel produced them and then published them using their characters to interact in the story. That is why they should at the very least be considered. And in the end, included on an individual bases based on the fact that they do not contradict established continuity. They are Marvel Comics, and this is the Marvel Chronology Project. 

I also think that comparing one comic produced for you paid for by you, is a far cry from thousands to hundred of thousands given away in a particular region or through a premium type of deal. 

I started posting these to a get feedback about possible placement and give people a heads up to what is out there. Once, someone offers a valid chronological reason they can not be included, I understand and only ask that they be reviewed under the same bases as any other Marvel Comic. 

Paul O'Brien wrote 
>>>
just because a story CAN be fitted into continuity doesn't mean that it SHOULD be. 
<<<

If it's produced and published by Marvel for whatever reason it should.

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 09:50 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Just curious, but I recently found and bought in the back issue bin, "Xmen: Heroes for Hope" or "Heroes for Hope: Starring the Xmen", (whatever it's called)...And I notice it's considered canon, (it's in the Key). 

Not let me state I haven't read it yet, but this seems to be in line with the types of books that Jason Doty is bringing up. A quick glance through it indicates it's an After School Special warning us that there are people starving in Africa. So why would that be canon, yet other similar comics, (like the one listed in this thread by Jason) be non canon? 

My personal opinion is that they should be considered canon on a case by case basis, but I was wondering why that particular comic jumped into the "canon" pile...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 09:58 pm    
By Jason Doty

I know this question is directed to the Administrator, but I think because it was sold through the regular channels. That would also aply to Wolverine: In Global Jeapordy. Those two I purchased at the comic store and were solisited, if memory serves me.

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 10:02 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

First, it's not a giveaway. It's cover priced at $1.50. It was solicited and sold through all the regular channels. 

Second, it's referenced in the X-Men Index. 

Third, I don't see any mention that it's tied to an After School Special (although I could be overlooking something). 

Are we talking about the same book? 


watching: headline news

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 06:10 am    
By jephyork
Director

So, Russ, basically your problem is with books that weren't distributed through the direct market? 

I didn't know that you felt that the Wizard #1/2 issues weren't canon ... that certainly doesn't seem to be Marvel's stance. Off the top of my head, Gambit #1/2, Iron Man #1/2 and Weapon X #1/2 tie directly into ongoing storylines in the main book, and the latter two were reprinted in the TPBs... 

How do you feel about the Wizard #0 issues? Same way? Because Avengers #0 and New Warriors #0 tie directly into ongoing storylines too... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 06:17 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

One more point about this specific giveaway comic. It was published in 1982, well within the time period for it to have been included in a chronology of Storm's appearances in the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men. Yet it appears in neither edition of the Index. This may either be an oversight or an intentional omission because Marvel considers the story to be non-canonical.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 07:46 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So, Russ, basically your problem is with books that weren't distributed through the direct market? 
<<<

No. Basically my problem is with books that aren't available to me, unless I'm a "customer" of a particular entity other than Marvel. I refuse to buy those books--and have no desire to even try to get the free ones--on principle. Since I'll never have the books, my personal preference is to disregard them from the canon. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 10:15 am    
By ShadZ

Here's another way of thinking about this that may help (or not): 

Has a story in a giveaway or premium book ever been referenced in a source we know is canon? For example, has the story in the Power Pack/Spider-Man sex abuse giveaway that alleged that Peter Parker was sexually abused by a babysitter as a child ever been refered to in a regular Spider-Man book? Or in an Official Handbook? Or an Official Index? Etc? 

If this has never ever happened for any giveaway or premium, I'd say that's enought evidence that we don't event need to try to fit any of them in. But if it has happened even once, then we probably shoud examine them all, just in case... 

(If it has happened, I bet it was with a Wizard 1/2 or 0 issue...)
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 10:35 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Second, it's referenced in the X-Men Index.  
<<<

Ah, I see. I don't think that particular "adventure" has been referenced in any other canon story, but if it's mentioned in the Index, that does go a long way towards proving it's canon.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 10:46 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
No. Basically my problem is with books that aren't available to me, unless I'm a "customer" of a particular entity other than Marvel. I refuse to buy those books--and have no desire to even try to get the free ones--on principle. Since I'll never have the books, my personal preference is to disregard them from the canon. 
<<<

Personally, I'm on the fence about the whole issue, but to play devil's advocate for a moment... 

Every comic shop owner/operator selects which titles and issues s/he is going to carry and in what quantities. So if the owner of the comic shop I frequent elects NOT to carry a title, or orders quantities in such absurdly low numbers as to be realistically unobtainable, that would force me -- as a consumer -- to look for the issue in non-conventional locations: eBay, online shops, alternative brick-n-mortar locations, etc. So how does that differ from having to drive to a Home Depot to pick up their giveaway book? 

I don't think we can argue distribution method as a criterion for canonocity. Most of us use Diamond -- in a second-hand fashion -- but how many people receive their books directly from Marvel's subscription program? Or as comp copies? And that doesn't speak at all to how things were done in the past. 

We can't use editorial control because that comes inherently with the license of the characters in the first place. 

I don't know that we can use the "free" aspect as a criterion, since Marvel has distributed stories for free that were deemed canon. (The online-only Gambit story from a few years back springs to mind.) 

I feel that, currently, our arguements are going back and forth along the same lines of pornography: "I know a non-canon book when I see." And, while perhaps not as politically driving as pornography, I don't think we should follow the same path... since the jury's still (and will continue to be for a long time) out on what is and isn't considered porn. We should set down criteria for canonocity, I think, but I don't know that anyone has yet shown any justifiable, concrete reasons why giveaways should (or should not) be held to a different standard than the regular books.

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 12:06 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
but I don't know that anyone has yet shown any justifiable, concrete reasons why giveaways should (or should not) be held to a different standard than the regular books. 
<<<

I kinda of got the impression that since no one (or hardly anyone) was commenting on the canon debate, that we were giving the giveaway books a free pass. I'm glad to see that's not the case. 

I also agree that distribution method isn't the best criteria to use, since clearly the Wizard 1/2 and 0 issues are concidered canon by Marvel. 

And I do believe that giveaway books could be canon, just that most of them aren't. 

Are there any precedents that Marvel considers various giveaway books as canon? (Heroes for Hope was not a giveaway book, so this doesn't count.) Do any of the indexes refer to these stories? How about the new handbooks? Are any of the giveaway books referenced? 

If not, I would say that creates a higher burden of proof for those books, than for a regular book. We all know that Marvel publishes a lot of material that is not canon. Clearly that is going to include some (perhaps even most) of the giveaway books.

Last edited by Dhall on 08 Jun 2005 01:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 12:23 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Every comic shop owner/operator selects which titles and issues s/he is going to carry and in what quantities. So if the owner of the comic shop I frequent elects NOT to carry a title, or orders quantities in such absurdly low numbers as to be realistically unobtainable, that would force me -- as a consumer -- to look for the issue in non-conventional locations: eBay, online shops, alternative brick-n-mortar locations, etc. 
<<<

If I'm dealing with a comic shop owner who, for whatever reason, doesn't buy a book that I've pre-ordered, I won't be dealing with that comic shop. 


SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
So how does that differ from having to drive to a Home Depot to pick up their giveaway book? 
<<<

Well, there's a big difference if the nearest Home Depot is 400 miles away. And to make a parallel comparison, there's no assurance *that* Home Depot has the book. If General Motors elects to provide a giveaway to its ~200,000 employees and their families--but not to customers--is that book canon? 


SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
I don't think we can argue distribution method as a criterion for canonocity. Most of us use Diamond -- in a second-hand fashion -- but how many people receive their books directly from Marvel's subscription program? Or as comp copies? And that doesn't speak at all to how things were done in the past. 
<<<

I'm not sure I'm willing to let that reasoning go by without a challenge. Whether someone gets their books through subscription, or comp copies, or drug stores, or so forth, these books are *also* available from Diamond and other regular distribution channels. There was never any intent to propose that Diamond be the *only* source, before a book is canon. 


SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
We can't use editorial control because that comes inherently with the license of the characters in the first place.  
<<<

Frankly, I think the level of editorial control is open to debate. While I'd like to believe that Marvel wouldn't allow its characters to do *some* things, no matter how much they're being paid, if Kellogg's wants a giveaway comic, I've got to believe that Kellogg's is going to maintain some pretty stiff editorial control, of its own. 


SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
I don't know that we can use the "free" aspect as a criterion, since Marvel has distributed stories for free that were deemed canon. (The online-only Gambit story from a few years back springs to mind.)  
<<<

And I voted against it, so no inconsistency there (although not because it was "free"). 


watching: both sides

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 03:31 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
If I'm dealing with a comic shop owner who, for whatever reason, doesn't buy a book that I've pre-ordered, I won't be dealing with that comic shop. 
<<<

In what I can muster that resembles a professional opinion, such a shop would have to be the ONLY source for ANY comics for a good distance to stay afloat for that exact reason. My point, though, was that I don't think we can claim that a comic is or isn't canon because of where/how it was purchased. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Well, there's a big difference if the nearest Home Depot is 400 miles away. And to make a parallel comparison, there's no assurance *that* Home Depot has the book.  
<<<

Likewise, the second nearest comic shop to my fictional one could also be 400 miles away with no guarantee of having the book either. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I'm not sure I'm willing to let that reasoning go by without a challenge. Whether someone gets their books through subscription, or comp copies, or drug stores, or so forth, these books are *also* available from Diamond and other regular distribution channels. There was never any intent to propose that Diamond be the *only* source, before a book is canon. 
<<<

But what constitutes a "regular distribution channel"? Marvel has switched distributors many times, including using their own internal distribution arm and, back in the day, DC Comics themselves. We can't say that it has to come from a single distributor, nor can we say it has to be through multiple distributors. 

I'm just saying that there is no easily recognizable way to distinguish the distribution of a giveaway comic versus a "normal" one, and use that as the basis of canonocity. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Frankly, I think the level of editorial control is open to debate. While I'd like to believe that Marvel wouldn't allow its characters to do *some* things, no matter how much they're being paid, if Kellogg's wants a giveaway comic, I've got to believe that Kellogg's is going to maintain some pretty stiff editorial control, of its own. 
<<<

True. After all, those Fruit Pie ads are legendary!  

But at the same time, from a purely functional perspective, those books pass through a Marvel staffer's hands to be proofread, if nothing else. That constitutes at least SOME degree of editorial control. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
And I voted against it, so no inconsistency there (although not because it was "free"). 
<<<

I'm just saying that any rules that we put in place regarding the overall canonocity of giveaway isn't going to be easy. Furthermore, a lot of the "obvious" ideas regarding what constitutes a giveaway comic book (thus, making it subject to the rules' application) don't really hold up very well as rules that can be uniformly applied. 

I don't know what the answer is. (Otherwise I would've told you!  ) And I'm honestly not sure if I feel classifying Avengers #0 in the same league as Dardevil vs. Vapora or those Pizza Hut books makes sense. But my point is that there are a lot variables that those books share with any run-of-the-mill, monthly Marvel comic.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 03:43 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

WIZARD giveaways are a completely different category, I think. Those are stories distributed through normal channels to the existing comics audience in the hopes of enticing them to buy the comic. It's a loss leader comic. It's Marvel advertising their own publications. 

That's quite a different thing from a third party licensor hiring some Marvel characters to promote THEIR company or campaign. That's more akin to somebody paying for the right to use the X-Men in an advert.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 04:20 pm    
By Jason Doty

Some ideas of how to classify and some possible standards for review. 

Just going over what I have pulled there are three types of these books, in different formats. 

Classifying: 

Giveaway (handed out freely by an orginization to promote something, educational or in appreciation too) 
Example: Spider-Man, Storm, and Power Man 
Promotinal (Given away with the purpose of selling another item.) 
Example: Pizza Hut: Real Heroes 
Premium (Purchased through a sourse other than standard conventional ways) 
Example: Wizard 1/2 

Different types: 
Magazine (Oversized , paper or regular cover) 
Comic Book (regular standard size, paper or regular cover) 
Mini-Comic (Smaller below standard size) 

Possible standard for review: 

1. Published by Marvel Comics or with there express permision. 
2. Does not contradict established continuity. 
3. Reviewed on a case by case basis. 
4. Should be in comic format with art and story. 

These are just suggestions for review and possible inclusion on these types of comics.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 04:48 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Whether someone gets their books through subscription, or comp copies, or drug stores, or so forth, these books are *also* available from Diamond and other regular distribution channels. 
<<<

But what constitutes a "regular distribution channel"? Marvel has switched distributors many times, including using their own internal distribution arm and, back in the day, DC Comics themselves. We can't say that it has to come from a single distributor, nor can we say it has to be through multiple distributors. 
<<<

Sure I can. By "regular distribution channel," I intentionally left that vague and open-ended, so everyone else can apply whatever distribution channel they use. I use Diamond. 

If a) I can't buy it through Diamond; and b) Marvel makes no reference to it, I personally don't consider it canon. 

And yes, I know, Marvel hasn't always used Diamond, and yes, I know, Marvel may not use Diamond next year. If that's the case, my criteria will change to whatever distribution channel I *do* access. 


watching: nypd blue

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 09:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Just to fuel the fires, Russ -- you keep saying what you "personally" do and don't consider canon. What does the MCP consider canon? I notice that, at least in Gambit's case, we've got both the #1/2 issue and the cybercomic listed. Neither of which you, personally, consider canon. 

Quote: 
>>>
WIZARD giveaways are a completely different category, I think. Those are stories distributed through normal channels to the existing comics audience in the hopes of enticing them to buy the comic. It's a loss leader comic. It's Marvel advertising their own publications. 

That's quite a different thing from a third party licensor hiring some Marvel characters to promote THEIR company or campaign. That's more akin to somebody paying for the right to use the X-Men in an advert. 
<<<

This is, I think, a really great distinction. In 99% of these giveaway books, Marvel didn't decide unaided to put out the comic -- some outside company paid Marvel to produce them. 

Hmmmmm. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 09:44 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Just to fuel the fires, Russ -- you keep saying what you "personally" do and don't consider canon. 
<<<

You know, I suspected you would be the one who would hit on that. Actually, I wonder what took you so long... 

I think I've tried half a dozen different ways in this thread to emphasize that it's Russ Chappell who thinks the way he does, not the Project. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
What does the MCP consider canon? 
<<<

I suppose that's up to the Board of Directors, at least insofar as the bigger picture of "giveaway" books. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I notice that, at least in Gambit's case, we've got both the #1/2 issue and the cybercomic listed. Neither of which you, personally, consider canon. 
<<<

Exactly. And, again, nothing inconsistent there. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 10:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Actually, I wonder what took you so long... 
<<<

Same reason it takes me so long to write Issue Analyses: pure grade-A laziness.  I noticed it yesterday but didn't "get around" to mentioning it until just now... 

I wonder what else might be listed on the MCP that Russ Chappell doesn't consider canon... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 10:35 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Update: the New Avengers / Fantastic Four military giveaway one-shot will, according to Marvel's David Gabriel, be released as part of a Marvel Milestones comic later this year. 

Tacit endorsement of canonicity? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 12:09 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Just to fuel the fires, Russ -- you keep saying what you "personally" do and don't consider canon. What does the MCP consider canon? I notice that, at least in Gambit's case, we've got both the #1/2 issue and the cybercomic listed. Neither of which you, personally, consider canon. 
<<<

Both of those stories would meet Russ's test for canonicity, as I read it. They were referenced in the GAMBIT series from the same period. The GENERATION X #1/2 issue, which has chunks of Skin's origin, is presumably in the same category.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 01:23 pm    
By garbonzo

Skleefield wrote "True. After all, those Fruit Pie ads are legendary! " 

And, in some cases cannon. As I recall, Busiek used one of the characters from a hostess fruit pie ad for one of his Masters of Evil in Thunderbolds #25 (I think that is the issue. I am at work right now and don't have my stash). 


As for my 2 cents...Just because something is free doesn't mean it cannot be cannon. there were mini-comics packaged with X-men videos that at first blush do not contradict continuity. There were the Spider-Man anti pot issues which were serialized in student newspapers and inserterd in issues of Marvel comics. Just because it is free doesn't mean it is bad. As for availability being an issue, that opens up a whole can of wormy issues. From Marvel UK stories to pages put in TPB's to improve story flow. The European issues were not always available (when first published)in the US, regardless of your ordering methods (but we still include Captain Brittain), and if as stated above, the original trumps the reprint, then why do we include added pages in reprinted comics? Or the added A on the belt-buckle of the shadowy figure that was added to make "certain" that Apokalypse was involved in Angel's transformation into teh Angel of Death. 

My bigest problem with the issue at hand (Storm, Spider-Man, and Powerman) is that Luke cage is coaching a track teram in his spare time. I mean, have we EVER seen him doing anything like this in his "spare" time? The closest is the charity game against the Bears in PMIF #125. Even that was for publicity. That is not in character. Other than that, I have no problems with this being cannon. I mean, if Superpro can become cannon thanks to a quick reference in Marvel Team-up, then why can't Smokescreen?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 02:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
Skleefield wrote "True. After all, those Fruit Pie ads are legendary! " 

And, in some cases cannon. As I recall, Busiek used one of the characters from a hostess fruit pie ad for one of his Masters of Evil in Thunderbolds #25 (I think that is the issue. I am at work right now and don't have my stash). 
<<<

While you are correct that Busiek used one of the characters, how does that make the Hostess ad canon? The ads already featured Marvel Universe characters, and weren't canon. 


garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
As for my 2 cents...Just because something is free doesn't mean it cannot be cannon. there were mini-comics packaged with X-men videos that at first blush do not contradict continuity. There were the Spider-Man anti pot issues which were serialized in student newspapers and inserterd in issues of Marvel comics. Just because it is free doesn't mean it is bad. 
<<<

Thank you, garbonzo. These are excellent examples of the can of worms that can be opened up, if we are to assume that giveaways are canon. I hadn't thought of that. 


garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
As for availability being an issue, that opens up a whole can of wormy issues. From Marvel UK stories to pages put in TPB's to improve story flow. The European issues were not always available (when first published)in the US, regardless of your ordering methods (but we still include Captain Brittain), 
<<<

All of the examples you present here are canon because they are referenced by other, canon stories. 


garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
and if as stated above, the original trumps the reprint, then why do we include added pages in reprinted comics? 
<<<

You may be misunderstanding. When we say "the original trumps the reprint," we mean when a "reprint"--or more commonly, a "retelling"--gives us the same information as the original story, or contradicts the original story without explanation, we follow the original story. That's not to be confused with added information in the reprint, which is inserted into the original story. 


garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
Other than that, I have no problems with this being cannon. I mean, if Superpro can become cannon thanks to a quick reference in Marvel Team-up, then why can't Smokescreen? 
<<<

I think your question answers itself. Has Smokescreen received a quick reference in Marvel Team-Up? 


watching: smallville

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 03:05 pm    
By Jason Doty

My question is, if any company used the character Smoke Screen would Marvel sue? Probably, since they created the character and interacted that said character with their other owned characters in a comic published and produced by them. 

It's as if this discussion has devolved to wether these are Marvel Comics or not. They are. They should be reveiwed and then placed if they fit into continuity. No mater how stupid the characters are is not the issue. These comics were produced and published by Marvel. 

Debating if Luke Cage would help out a track team is not an issue. If he was white and from the Montana contryside it would be. If he and Spider-Man beat up a loser who tried to get kids hooked on cigeretts, that is actually reasonable, especialy because he was ingaging in illegal activities.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 03:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
These comics were produced and published by Marvel. 
<<<

...at the behest of a third party. 

I think that's the ONLY distinction to be made here -- did someone else HIRE Marvel to produce the comic? 

Maybe what's needed is a list of the comics in question ... I think once we take a look at what we're actually up against, it might help to focus the discussion. 

Can anyone help create a complete or near-complete list of giveaway, sendaway or otherwise promotional comic books featuring Marvel characters? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 04:40 pm    
By garbonzo

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
Skleefield wrote "True. After all, those Fruit Pie ads are legendary! " 

And, in some cases cannon. As I recall, Busiek used one of the characters from a hostess fruit pie ad for one of his Masters of Evil in Thunderbolds #25 (I think that is the issue. I am at work right now and don't have my stash). 
<<<

While you are correct that Busiek used one of the characters, how does that make the Hostess ad canon? The ads already featured Marvel Universe characters, and weren't canon. 
<<<

Here is the way I look at it. I agree that the Hostess ads wee a lark. they were funny and never were really intended to be cannon. they were a third party advertisement. simple as that. Then Kurt Busiek comes along and decides to throw the readers for a loop by including in his "All New Masters of Evil" a character who first appeared in one of these ads. 

Now we have a choice. We either a) throw out the characters first appearance because it does not fit in neatly with oour idea of a first appearance, or b) we treat the character as we would treat Rom. Rom was a 22 page ad for the toy Rom: Spaceknight. the fact that it was an ongoing series of advertisements did not cause too many problems with the readers who pretty much ignored the toy and read the comic. Later in the series Rom has interactions with with other characters (Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Powerman and Iron Fist, etc.) We consider Rom cannon, but not Icemaster (the one whose fist appearance was in a hostess ad). 

I agree that we are getting into murky waters. there shoud be a test to see if these thigs hold up under scrutiny. Clearly Busiek saw Icemaster as a viable character and listed his first appearance (in a letter col.) as the Hostess ad. If that is the case, then why can't Powerman, Storm, and Spider-man have faced a lame-ass character named Smokscreen who was so bad they never bothered to mention him again. 

If the test is if the character or the event is ever mentioned again, then there are literally thousands of Marvel books that should be thrown out as the adventures have never been mentioned again or the characters with whom they interact are never again mentioned or heard from (hell, the entire Cage series from the early 90's is a good example of something that has never been mentioned again...for good reason!). 

If the test is that there has to be an interaction between established characters in the MU that does not conflict with established continuity, then this comic in particular meets the criteria. (Unfortunately so would the Hostess ad where Spider-Man defeats Man-Mountain Marko with fruit pies) 

My litmus test would be as follows: 
1 (most important) does it contradict established Marvel Continuity? 
2 Does it contradict established character behavior/appearance/ etc. (this one is tricky as there are always srtange behaviors being exibited in the MU, but Storm using her lightning bolts to fry a basket of little kitties would DEFINATELY be out of character.) 
3 Are there any other legitimate reasons why it should not be included? 

this is a tough one. I think that a series of questions to be answered would make more sense than one overall reason such as origin of the property involved, or availbility of distribution. 

But then again, i am a member and not on the board. You are far wiser than I in these matters with much more experience (and post count!). I bow to you on this issue and am here to serve as needed (if only as a means to furthering the conversation).

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 07:14 pm    
By garbonzo

As it is so fashionable thse days to cut and paste from http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/icmstr.htm , I figured I would give it a shot.  

Quote: 
>>>
Comments: Created by unknown; 
slightly redesigned and introduced in a "mainstream" story by Kurt Busiek and Mark Bagley 

*Ahem* Y'see, Thunderbolts #24-5 was part of a "name the first appearances" contest, and I'm guessing Kurt Busiek wanted to make it really tough to get 'em all. And of course, this means all those Hostess ad villains are now in-continuity....(and a master profile of all of them are on their way from Kyle Smith!) 
<<<

Now, I'm not sure that all of the Hostess characters are in continuity... but statements like this highlight the need for some real criteria! 

your faithful servant, 
garbonzo

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 07:48 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think you're falling into a bit of a logic trap, Garbanzo. Yes, Icemaster was seen first in a Hostess ad. Then he appeared in the Marvel Universe. But why do you assume that, therefore, the Hostess ad must be canon? 

Here's an example: 

Firestar first appeared in the "Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends" cartoon. She then appeared in comic-book form in a one-shot of the same name, that I believe adapted one of the cartoon episodes. Then she went on to appear in the Marvel Universe, in UX #193. 

Would you argue that, because Firestar has now appeared in the MU, it validates her first comic appearance -- the "Spidey and Amazing Friends" one-shot -- as canon? 

No, of course not. The comic is clearly not set in the Marvel Universe -- it's set in a time and place where Spidey, Iceman and Firestar all live together and know each other's secret IDs. It's incompatible with the Marvel Universe as we know it. 

And because nobody has ever REFERENCED that story in a canon Marvel comic -- "hey Firestar, didn't you once live with Spidey?" -- there's no reason to FORCE us to drag that story into MU canon. 

The first *comic appearance* of Firestar was that one-shot. But her first CANON appearance -- the first appearance of the Firestar that lives in the Marvel Universe -- was UX #193. There's a difference. 

Similarly, Icemaster's first appearance was set in a world where heroes distract villains with fruit pies, and armed robbers give themselves up to eat light flaky crust. It's irreconcilable with the Marvel Universe and the way we know it works. 

And ... follow me here ... because nobody in a MU comic has ever REFERENCED the Hostess ad -- "hey Icemaster, didn't the Human Torch once defeat you with Twinkies?" -- there's no reason to try to drag the ad, and by extension other Hostess ads -- into MU canon. 

Icemaster's first comic appearance was a Hostess Ad, yes. 

But his first CANON apperance ... the first appearance of the Icemaster that lives in the Marvel Universe ... was Thunderbolts #24. 

See the difference? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 08:18 pm    
By Jason Doty

Jeph York wrote 

Quote: 
>>>
did someone else HIRE Marvel to produce the comic?  
<<<

Or did Marvel hire them to produce a game, or did Marvel do it freely to promote comic books as a way of reaching a younger audiance and means of creating awarness, or did they donate the money to charity, or was Marvel cashing in for free publicity of their product. 

Any of these are more likely then them paying Marvel to produce it. I agree Marvel got something out of it, but probably not out rightly paid to do it. 

Regardless of the reasons they were created, they exist. Marvel is a buisness that makes money. If Doritos pays them to create a story, it is no different then them creating the comics we purchase every month. 

For the purpose of the MCP all that needs to be debated is wether or not it fits within continuity, in the Marvel Universe. If it dos'nt meet this one standard it is tossed out.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:03 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
For the purpose of the MCP all that needs to be debated is wether or not it fits within continuity, in the Marvel Universe. If it dos'nt meet this one standard it is tossed out. 
<<<

I disagree. For the purpose of the MCP, what needs to be debated are: what special rules govern the determination of canon giveaway stories, just as we have determined special rules apply in the determination of canon crossover stories. 


watching: crossing jordan

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:03 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
If Doritos pays them to create a story, it is no different then them creating the comics we purchase every month. 
<<<

...Yes it is. It very clearly is. Because they wouldn't have created that one comic if Doritos hadn't paid them to. It's pure work-for-hire -- not work created as a normal part of their monthly comic publishing business. 

I'm not saying it makes a canonical difference -- I'm not saying "all books created as work-for-hire are automatically non-canon". I'm just saying, in business terms, there's a clear difference in the very reason for the comic's existence. 

What do you think Marvel's intent was, in creating these books? 

When they create their normal monthly output, we assume that the majority of the books are intended to fit into, and continue, the pre-existing canon. 

When they are hired by an outside party to create a comic featuring Marvel characters, and to deliver that comic solely to the outside party -- what do you think their "intent" is? 

Personally, I'd say their "intent" is to fulfill the expectations of the party hiring them -- no more, no less. 

Unfortunately, that doesn't allow us to deduce if the books are either "automatically canon" OR "automatically non-canon". We can't reach either conclusion with 100% certainty. 

So, since Marvel doesn't seem to have a clear opinion on the matter, I'd say it comes down to the opinions of the folks running the MCP. 

Anyone up for a preliminary Board vote -- poll the jury, just to see where we all stand? Or should we let the debate bounce around for another few pages? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 10:27 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Can anyone help create a complete or near-complete list of giveaway, sendaway or otherwise promotional comic books featuring Marvel characters? 
<<<


Quote: 
>>>
Anyone up for a preliminary Board vote -- poll the jury, just to see where we all stand? Or should we let the debate bounce around for another few pages?  
<<<

I'd still like to see that list of giveaway comics before going much further, (as far as voting goes, that is)...but what would we be actually voting on? A broad question of "Should all Giveaway/Sendaway/Promo comics be ruled non canon until proven canon?" If that's the question, I vote yes in favor of the motion...but a list of all promo comics would help.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 11:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Say, what about third-party licensed books that are solicited by Marvel and sold through the direct market? 

"Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects" and the upcoming "Mega Morphs" series feature Marvel characters and are available through regular channels, but they're clearly toy and video game tie-ins. 

Hmm. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2005 11:49 pm    
By Antonio Gavio

Here's what we are dealing with, folks. Have at it... 

MARVEL ISSUES 
ISSUE / PROMO WITH 
Adventures in Reading starring the Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 No. 1 (2 versions) / Battle against Illiteracy 
Adventures in Reading starring the Amazing Spider-Man Vol 2 No. 1 (3 versions) / Battle against Illiteracy 
All New Exiles vs. X-Men No. 0 (2 versions) / American Entertainment 
America's Super Heroes / Target 
Aurora Comic Scenes - Captain America / Aurora Models 
Aurora Comic Scenes - The Incredible Hulk / Aurora Models 
Aurora Comic Scenes - The Amazing Spider-Man / Aurora Models 
Avengers No. 0 / Wizard 
Avengers Collectors Edition No. 1 / Charleston Chew 
Avengers: When Ultron Attacks! No. 1 / Wizard 
Badrock Wolverine Exclusive Ashcan / ? 
Battlebooks: Blue Print Editions (8 x different) / Battlebooks Inc/Crusade Collectibles 
Blade  / Wizard 
Blade No. 1 (Cinema Giveaway) / New Line Cinema 
Blade Theatrical Preview No. 1 / New Line Cinema 
Bubble Funnies Nos. 1-4 / Bubble Funnies 
Captain America and the Campbell Kids / Campbells Soup Company 
Captain America Heroes Reborn Ashcan / ? 
Captain America Comicon Edition #1 / ? 
Captain America continues the War against Drugs No. 1 / FBI 
Captain America goes to War against Drugs No. 1 (2 x versions) / F.B.I. 
Captain America meets the Asthma Monster / Allen & Hanbury's 
Captain America: Return of the Asthma Monster / Allen & Hanbury's 
Captain America vs. Baron Zemo No. 2 / TSR 
Captain America: The Haunting of Skull House No. 1 (with cassette) / Shan-Lon 
Captain America: The Living Legend No. 2 (with cassette) / Shan-Lon 
Captain America: The Strange Death of Captain America No. 3 (with cassette) / Shan-Lon 
Captain Marvel No. 0 / Wizard 
Combo Man No. 1 / Combos Snacks 
Daredevil  / Wizard 
Daredevil vs. Vapora No. 1 / The Gas Company 
DC vs Marvel Consumer Preview / Store giveaway 
Deadpool No. 0 / Wizard 
Devil's Reign : Silver Surfer/Witchblade / Wizard 
Drake's Snack Cakes (Vol 1) Nos. 1-4 / Drake's Snack Cakes 
Drake's Snack Cakes (Vol 2) Nos. 1-5 / Drake's Snack Cakes 
Earth X  / Wizard 
Earth X Special Edition / Wizard 
Exclusive Collectors Edition: Spider-Man / Aim Toothpaste 
Fantastic Four  / Wizard 
Fantastic Four / Young Model Builders Club 
Fantastic Four: Franklin's Adventures / McDonalds 
Fantastic Four Heroes Reborn Ashcan / ? 
FOOM Magazine Nos. 1-22 / Marvel 
Gambit  / Wizard 
Generation X  (2 versions) / Wizard 
Generation X Preview (2 versions) / Overstreet FAN & San Diego Con 
Ghost Rider Collector's Edition No. 1 / Kaybee Toy Stores 
Ghost Rider Mini Comics #'s 1-12 / Toy Biz 
Heroes Reborn  (regular & platinum) / Wizard 
House of M Preview / Marvel 
Hulk  / Wizard 
Incredible Hulk: Islands of Adventure Under Siege / Wal-Mart/Coca-Cola 
Incredible Hulk vs. Venom No. 1 / Unicef 
Hulk: Project H.I.D.E. / McDonalds 
Iron Man  / Wizard 
Iron Man Heroes Reborn Ashcan / ? 
The Legacy of Spider-Man / Wizard 
Magneto #0 (2 versions) / Marvel 
Marvel Action Hour Preview / Marvel 
Marvel Collectors Edition No. 1 (Spidey & Wolverine) / Charleston Chew 
Marvel Collector's Edition No. 1 (X-Men) / Stridex 
Marvel Comics Presents Captain America mini comic 
Marvel Comics Presents Spider-Man (Amazing 1) mini comic 
Marvel Comics Presents Spider-Man (Scream Scorpion) mini comic 
Marvel Comics Presents The X-Men mini comic 
Marvel Comic Convention '75 Program / Marvel 
Marvel-Con '76 Program / Marvel 
Marvel Financial Reports (Annual) / Marvel 
Marvel Financial Reports (Quarterly) / Marvel 
Marvel Guide to Collecting Comics / Marvel 
Marvel Heroes salute the Home Depot Heroes / Home Depot 
Marvel Knights/Marvel Boy Genesis Edition / Marvel 
Marvel Knights Sketchbook / Wizard 
Marvel Knights Wave 2 / Wizard 
Marvel Live No. 0 / Marvel 
Marvelmania Magazine Nos. 1-6 / Marvel 
Marvel Mini-Books (x 6) / C.N.P. 
Marvel Requirer Nos. 1-34 / Store giveaway 
Marvel Spotlight (1993) / Store giveaway 
Marvel Spotlight (1995) / Store giveaway 
Marvel Super Heroes Origins / KFC 
Marvel Super Hero Island Adventures No. 1 (2 versions) / Universal Studios 
Marvel Value Stamp Books 1 & 2 / Marvel 
Maximum Carnage No. 1 / Acclaim Entertainment 
Mega Marvel / Marvel 
The Mighty Marvel Holiday Wish List No. 1 / Store giveaway 
The Mighty Marvel Holiday Wish List No. 2 / Store giveaway 
New Avengers Guest Starring The Fantastic Four / Military giveaway 
New Warriors No. 0 / Wizard 
Night Man vs. Wolverine No. 0 (2 versions) / American Entertainment 
Onslaught Mini Comic / Store giveaway 
Prime vs. the Incredible Hulk No. 0 (2 versions) / American Entertainment 
Readers to the Rescue 1 / Target 
Readers to the Rescue 2 / Target 
Real Heroes No. 1 / Pizza Hut 
Real Heroes No. 2 / Pizza Hut 
Real Heroes No. 3 / Pizza Hut 
Real Heroes No. 4 / Pizza Hut 
Ryder Cup preview / Sports Illustrated 
Sales to Astonish / Marvel 
Sales to Astonish: The Comic Book / Marvel 
Silver Surfer  (regular & variant) / Wizard 
Slingers No. 0 / Wizard 
Spider-Girl  / Wizard 
Spider-Man  (2 versions) / Wizard 
Amazing Spider-Man: Skating on thin Ice No. 1 / Health & Welfare Canada 
Amazing Spider-Man: Double Trouble No. 2 / Health & Welfare Canada 
Amazing Spider-Man: Hit and Run No. 3 / Health & Welfare Canada 
Amazing Spider-Man: Chaos in Calgary No. 4 / Health & Welfare Canada 
Amazing Spider-Man: Deadball No. 5 / Health & Welfare Canada 
Amazing Spider-Man Actionmeal 3-D comic / Hardee's 
Amazing Spider-Man: The Scorpion's Tale of Woe No. 1 (with cassette) / Shan-Lon 
Amazing Spider-Man: My Science Project No. 2 (with cassette) / Shan-Lon 
Amazing Spider-Man: On the Waterfront No. 3 (with cassette) / Shan-Lon 
Spider-Man Mini Discs (x 4) / Peter Pan Peanut Butter 
Amazing Spider-Man / All Detergent 
Amazing Spider-Man Battles Ignorance / Sylvan Learning Systems 
Amazing Spider-Man NACME Series No. 1: Vs. Dr. Octopus / NACME 
Amazing Spider-Man NACME Series No. 2: Riot at Robotworld / NACME 
Sensational Spider-Man mini comic No. 3 (2 versions) / Wizard 
Amazing Spider-Man Pro-Action Magazine Vol 2 No.1 
Amazing Spider-Man Pro-Action Magazine Vol 2 No.3 
Spider-Man Verbal Abuse (2 x versions) / National Committee for Prevention of Child Abuse (sponsored by 7-11 & Toyota) 
Spider-Man battles the Myth Monster / National Association of School Nurses 
Amazing Spider-Man (Birth of a Super-Hero) / Eye & Equire Magazine 
Spider-Man: Bug Stops Here / The Exterminator: No Job Too Big / Orkin 
Spider-Man and Captain America: Dr. Doom's Revenge / Paragon Software 
Spider-Man: Fatherhood / National Committee to Prevent Child Abuse (sponsored by Toyota) 
Amazing Spider-Man vs the Prodigy / Planned Parenthood Sex Education 
Spider-Man: How to Beat the Bully No. 1 ( 2 x versions) 
Jubilee: Peer Pressure No. 1 (2 x versions) / National Committee for Prevention of Child Abuse 
Spider-Man Hi-C Mini Comics Nos. 1 - 4 / Hi-C Fruit Drinks 
Amazing Spider-Man: Crisis at Cape Canaveral (2 x versions) / Aim Toothpaste 
Spider-Man and the Hulk Special Edition / Chicago Tribune 
Spider-Man vs the Hulk Special Edition / Columbus Dispatch 
Spider-Man and the Dallas Cowboys: Danger in Dallas / Dallas Times Herald 
Spider-Man & the Incredible Hulk: Chaos in Kansas City / Jones Store Advertising Supplement to Kansas City Star 
Spider-Man & the Incredible Hulk: The Colorado Caper / May D&F Advertising Supplement to Denver Post 
Spider-Man & the Incredible Hulk: The Great Rodeo Robbery / Foley's Advertising Supplement to Houston Chronicle 
Spider-Man & the Incredible Hulk: Pipeline to Peril / Sanger Harris Advertising Supplement to Dallas Times Herald 
Spider-Man & the Incredible Hulk: Southwest Showdown / Sanger Harris 
Spider-Man and the New Mutants featuring Skids / National Committee for Prevention of Child Abuse (sponsored by K-Mart) 
Spider-Man, Captain America, the Incredible Hulk & Spider-Woman / 7-11 Stores 
Spider-Man: Christmas in Dallas / Dallas Times Herald 
Spider-Man, Firestar and Iceman at the Dallas Ballet Nutcracker / Dallas Times Herald 
Spider-Man, Firestar and Iceman: Danger in Denver / May D&F Advertising Supplement to Denver Post 
Spider-Man and Power Pack No. 1 (5 variations) / National Committee for Prevention of Child Abuse (Foley's Supplement to the Houston Chronicle) 
Spider-Man and Spider-Woman Mini Comic / 7-11 Stores 
Amazing Spider-Man Halloween Special Edition No. 1 / Store giveaway 
Amazing Spider-Man Halloween Special Edition No. 2 / Store giveaway 
Spider-Man Mysteries / McDonalds 
Spider-Man Special Edition: The Trial of Venom No. 1 / Unicef 
Spider-Man, Storm and Power Man (2 versions) / American Cancer Society 
Spider-Man, Storm and Cage / American Cancer Society 
Spider-Man Toy Fair #1 / Toy Biz 
Spider-Man Unlimited  / Wizard 
Spider-Man: Work in Progress / Marvel 
Super Heroes Puzzles and Games / General & Mills cereals 
Thunderbolts #0 / Wizard 
Thunderbolts Prelude No. 1 / ? 
Transformers: Generation 2 Halloween Special Edition No. 1 / Store giveaway 
2099 Limited Ashcan / Hero Illustrated 
2099 Sketchbook / Marvel 
Universe X Special Edition / Wizard 
Wild Thing No. 0 / Wizard 
Wizard Ace Edition #16: Marvel Comics #1 / Wizard 
Wolverine  (2 versions) / Wizard 
Wolverine Special No. 102.5 / Fleer Skybox 
Wolverine Halloween Special Edition No. 1 / Store giveaway 
Wolverine vs. the Brood Queen No. 1 / TSR 
X-51 No. 0 / Wizard 
X-Men  / Wizard 
Uncanny X-Men No. 1 Pro-Action Magazine Vol 1 No.1 
Uncanny X-Men No. 2 Pro-Action Magazine Vol 2 No.2 
Be X-Tra Safe with the X-Men / Blockbuster Video 
Uncanny X-Men at the State Fair of Texas / Dallas Times Herald 
Uncanny X-Men: Madness in Murderworld No. 1 / Paragon Software 
X-Men and Captain Universe No. 1 (2 versions) / Marvel 
X-Men Collectors Edition No. 1 / Pizza Hut 
X-Men Collectors Edition No. 2 / Pizza Hut 
X-Men Collectors Edition No. 3 / Pizza Hut 
X-Men Collectors Edition No. 4 / Pizza Hut 
X-Men Creators' Choice No. 1 / Pizza Hut 
X-Men Creators' Choice No. 2 / Pizza Hut 
X-Men Halloween Special Edition No. 1 / Store giveaway 
X-Men Mutant Trivia Book No. 1 / Store giveaway 
X-Men: Mutant Search R.U.1 / McDonalds 
X-Men Premium Edition No. 1 / Toys 'R' Us 
X-Men Revolution Genesis Edition / Marvel 
X-Men: The Coming of Triplikill No. 1 / ? 
X-Men The Movie Special #1 / Wizards of the Coast 
X-Men The Movie Special Edition / Toys 'R' Us 
X-Men The Movie Special Premier Prequel Edition / Toys 'R' Us 
The X-Men: Time Gliders Nos. 1-4 / Hardee's 

MALIBU ISSUES 
ISSUE / PROMO WITH 
All New Exiles vs. X-Men No. 0 (2 versions) / American Entertainment 
Black September Preview Book / Store giveaway 
Firearm No. 0 (with video) / Malibu 
Flood Relief No. 1 / American Red Cross 
Freex/Mantra Ashcan No. 1 / Diamond Retailers Seminar 
Godwheel Ashcan / Wizard 
Hardcase Premiere Edition Ashcan / Hero Illustrated 
New World Order (Ultraverse Preview) / Store giveaway 
Night Man vs. Wolverine No. 0 (2 versions) / American Entertainment 
Prime  / Wizard 
Prime Ashcan Edition No. 1 / Capital City Sales Conference 
Prime Month Ashcan / ? 
Prime Sega CD Edition Ashcan / Sony Imagesoft 
Prime vs. the Incredible Hulk No. 0 (2 versions) / American Entertainment 
Rafferty Ashcan / ? 
Rune No. 0 / Malibu 
Rune Special Edition No. 1 / Spin Magazine 
Rune/Wrath Ashcan (2 x versions) / Previews 
The Solution No. 0 / Malibu 
Ultraforce No. 0A / Wizard 
Ultraforce No. 0B / Wizard 
Ultraverse Premiere No. 0 / Malibu 
Ultraverse Preview / Malibu 
The Ultraverse Secrets Marvel Doesn't Want You To Know / Store giveaway

Last edited by Antonio Gavio on 11 Jun 2005 06:07 pm; edited 2 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 06:56 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Say, what about third-party licensed books that are solicited by Marvel and sold through the direct market? 

"Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects" and the upcoming "Mega Morphs" series feature Marvel characters and are available through regular channels, but they're clearly toy and video game tie-ins. 
<<< 

Let's not forget the grandaddy of them all: the original Secret Wars. Mattel were the ones who approached Shooter about that. 

This was part of my original point. A lot of these criteria that are getting suggested aren't really black and white issues. There's loads of grey areas that don't make these books easily defineable or categorizable.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 07:36 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Here's what we are dealing with, folks. Have at it... 
<<<

Whoa, Antonio...you da man! Great list. 

Looking over this list, which represents a variety of different partnership and business scenarios, my first reaction is to make no automatic assumptions about canonicity (this type of comic is canonical until proven otherwise, or this type of comic is non-canonical until proven otherwise). I'm seeing evaluation on a case-by-case basis. But to evaluate, I do agree we need a set of guidelines. Many of the guidelines we've discussed have their pitfalls and we need to be careful of converse rules (like the "never referenced in a known canonical comic" rule -- if referenced, it is canonical, but if never referenced, it's not necessarily non-canonical). Maybe a list of "canonical if" criteria and "non-canonical if" criteria need to be developed that avoid the application of converse logic.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 12:19 pm    
By Jason Doty

Certain Issues can be taken off the list, because they are either definatly not 616, or they hold no chronological value. 

Just to start, and I'm only doing this for the ones I own. 

The Battle Books (with Crusade are game handouts rather than comics) 
DC vs Marvel Consumer Preview Store giveaway ( This was how people voted, but I'll look at it again) 
Earth X  Wizard (Story set in non 616 universe) 
Earth X Special Edition Wizard (Preview art) 
House of M Preview Marvel (Preview art) 
Magneto #0 (2 versions) Marvel (reprinted stories already published) 
Marvel Action Hour Preview Marvel (Based on the cartoon) 
Marvel Knights Sketchbook Wizard (Preview art) 
Marvel Knights Wave 2 Wizard (Preview art) 
Marvel Super Heroes Origins KFC (Retelling of origins of FF,Spider-Man, Hulk, Wolverine) 
Spider-Man, Firestar and Iceman at the Dallas Ballet Nutcracker Dallas Times Herald ( Based on cartoon) 
Spider-Man, Firestar and Iceman: Danger in Denver May D&F Advertising Supplement to Denver Post (Based on cartoon) 
Spider-Man, Storm and Cage American Cancer Society (Redrawing of original story) 
Universe X Special Edition Wizard (Preview art) 
Wolverine Halloween Special Edition No. 1 Store giveaway (Reprint of already published story) 
Wolverine vs. the Brood Queen No. 1 TSR (Game rules) 
X-Men Halloween Special Edition No. 1 Store giveaway (Reprint of already published story) 
X-Men Revolution Genesis Edition Marvel (Preview art) 
X-Men The Movie Special #1 Wizards of the Coast (X-Men movie tie in) 
X-Men The Movie Special Edition Toys 'R' Us (X-Men movie tie in) 
X-Men The Movie Special Premier Prequel Edition Toys 'R' Us (X-Men movie tie in) 

Note: This is just a heads up, two tie ins with the X-Men Movie are 
X-Men I-Connect Edition no.1 
T.V Guide Special 

I have others but they are probally already named under something different. I did this to start narrowing down the list. If anyone can add or subtract from this list, please give us a heads up.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 12:51 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Say, what about third-party licensed books that are solicited by Marvel and sold through the direct market? 

"Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects" and the upcoming "Mega Morphs" series feature Marvel characters and are available through regular channels, but they're clearly toy and video game tie-ins. 
<<<

IMPERFECTS is a joint venture with Electronic Arts. It ties in with a Marvel-licensed video game. This has come up before, with QUESTPROBE, which was certainly canon. I can't see anything about IMPERFECTS which would point against it being canon. Elektra seems to be a villain, but that's consistent with her status in WOLVERINE at the moment. 

MEGA MORPHS promotes a toy line being released by Marvel's own sister company Toy Biz. It's an All Ages title, and many of those are out of continuity anyway. We'll have to wait and see, though. It's too early to say at the moment.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 02:01 pm    
By Dhall

There's nothing odd about Marvel brining in liscensed books based on a toyline, video game series, etc. Just remember that some of these are canon, Micronauts, ROM, etc., and some are not GI Joe, etc. 

I would never throw a book out because it's based on a liscensed product, but I would note that for many of those types of books that are canon, that fact has been explicitly stated by Marvel, either in letters pages, by brining in clearly canon characters, etc. 

That may or may not be applicable to giveaway books based on a non-comic product.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 02:17 pm    
By Enda80

I can assure you going forward that there is no way in Hel* that the Paragon software X-Men one-shot is in continuity. It seemed to follow that Pryde of the X-Men animated pilot. 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098137/ 

Anyway, it featured roughly the same line-up, featured the same Brotherhood members as in the pilot, so there is no way it could count. 

I euphemistically put pre-1990 adaptations of cartoon adaptations into Earth-animated, along with 

Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends#1 
Fantastic Four#236/2 
Incrediblue Hulk vs. Quasimodo#1. 
Pryde of the X-Men 

By the way, many recent Handbooks and Encyclopedias have referenced some giveaway and promotional comics, such as the Frightful Four that had the Man-Bull, Dreadknight, Trapster, Wizard. 

The Drake mini-issues seemed to follow continuity a bit tightly, as it even featured the Pantheon from the Hulk. Compare this to DC, whose promotional issues tend to be rather generic 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_2/message/839 

*not a misspelling.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 05:14 pm    
By Jason Doty

Enda80 wrote 
>>>
I can assure you going forward that there is no way in Hel* that the Paragon software X-Men one-shot is in continuity. It seemed to follow that Pryde of the X-Men animated pilot.  
<<<

At first glance, we know that Dazzler joined the X-Men after Nightcrawler was injured, striking this from continuity, but I seem to recall Dazzler training with the X-Men around DAZZ 38 wearing the same costume, So it is feasable that she went on an adventure with the X-Men. 

As far as the villians, Bad guy's team-up all the time. Here we have Magneto, Juggernaut, Blob, Mystique, Silver Samuri is hired and they appear to have captured the Wendigo 

Thats why I did'nt strike it right off the bat. (More than likely it will be thrown out because it is continued in a video game, but thats for a later discussion)

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 07:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Even that impressive list isn't complete. Off the top of my head, I see "Tutenstein", "Home Depot Safety Heroes" and the G.I. Joe minicomics given away with certain action figures missing. And there may be more ... there was some supermarket "5 a Day" healthy-eating comic featuring the X-Men ... and "Cap Goes to War Against Drugs" isn't two different editions of the same book, it's two different comics entirely. (And a third 48-page special collecting both of them exists, too.) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 09:50 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hmm. There's also a "Marvel Adventures" giveaway comic from Jack-in-the-Box. I've got it, and I'll write a quick review a bit later ... despite the title, it looks to take place in the Marvel Universe, rather than the kid-friendly, non-canon "Marvel Adventures" comic series, or any of the cartoon universes... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 10:30 am    
By Antonio Gavio

Quote: 
>>>
Even that impressive list isn't complete. Off the top of my head, I see "Tutenstein", "Home Depot Safety Heroes" and the G.I. Joe minicomics given away with certain action figures missing. And there may be more ... there was some supermarket "5 a Day" healthy-eating comic featuring the X-Men 
<<<

I know the list isn't complete but comics with no Marvel characters in them have been omitted from it. 


Quote: 
>>>
... and "Cap Goes to War Against Drugs" isn't two different editions of the same book, it's two different comics entirely. (And a third 48-page special collecting both of them exists, too.) 
<<<

Two different comics entirely even with different covers? or the same cover with slightly different masthead? Captain America: The Drug Wars collects them both but I'm not sure that was a giveaway. 

The list can be edited to add any missing comics that you guys know of.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 04:48 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Two different comics entirely. 

The first one, "Captain America Goes to War Against Drugs" was made in the 80s and written by Peter David, and I have no idea how many mildly different masthead variations it might have. 

The second one, "Captain America Continues the War Against Drugs", was made in the 90s and guest-starred the New Warriors. 

They were both reprinted in the 48-page "Captain America: the Drug Wars!", which I think was solicited normally through Marvel. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 05:20 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, many recent Handbooks and Encyclopedias have referenced some giveaway and promotional comics, such as the Frightful Four that had the Man-Bull, Dreadknight, Trapster, Wizard. 
<<<

That particular miniseries was later redistributed through normal US comics channels (or at least, the first four issues were; and that Frightful Four team was in the fourth issue). I would assume that the fact that events from those four issues were referenced by Marvel publications as canonical indicates that the fifth issue (Spider-Man: Deadball) is canonical as well, even though it wasn't distributed through normal channels. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 05:35 pm    
By Antonio Gavio

Quote: 
>>>
Two different comics entirely. 
The first one, "Captain America Goes to War Against Drugs" was made in the 80s and written by Peter David, and I have no idea how many mildly different masthead variations it might have. 
<<<

As far as I know this book was produced in 1990 and has two masthead variations which is what the '2 versions' caption was refering to. 


Quote: 
>>>
The second one, "Captain America Continues the War Against Drugs", was made in the 90s and guest-starred the New Warriors. 
<<<

I've never seen a copy of this one and didn't know what the indicia called it, that's why it wasn't included. I'll edit the list to add it. 


Quote: 
>>>
They were both reprinted in the 48-page "Captain America: the Drug Wars!", which I think was solicited normally through Marvel. 
<<<

This one I have, but doesn't qualify as giveaway. This comic is already in Cap's and everybody's chronology so maybe the other two should be treated as reprints.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 11:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Except the two giveaways came FIRST -- the "Cap: the Drug Wars!" book is the reprint. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2005 01:50 am    
By jephyork
Director

Looks like Antonio nicked most of that list from this website, folks. He's added a few more recent things to it, but for the most part everything pre-2001 is indexed on the above site -- with cover scans and brief descriptions, too! Helpful! 

http://217.196.238.182/big-tel/promos/Promo1.htm

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2005 01:14 pm    
By Antonio Gavio

Yes, that's the one! And here I was trying to take all the credit to myself, I should have known better. Jeph, I few words for you: I hate you!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2005 06:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, Antonio, you still da man...for finding the list.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2005 11:40 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

True, it's exactly what we needed, so congrats for that, Antonio!  

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
But to evaluate, I do agree we need a set of guidelines. Many of the guidelines we've discussed have their pitfalls and we need to be careful of converse rules (like the "never referenced in a known canonical comic" rule -- if referenced, it is canonical, but if never referenced, it's not necessarily non-canonical). Maybe a list of "canonical if" criteria and "non-canonical if" criteria need to be developed that avoid the application of converse logic. 
<<<

Sooo...something like: 

A promo comic is canon if: 

1. It is referenced in another "canon" Marvel Comic, or noted as canon in one of the Indexes. 

2. If it's tied directly into the plot of a specific issue, (don't many of those Wizard 1/2 comics tie directly into the plots?) 

If it doesn't match either of those criteria, this doesn't mean it's NOT canon neccesarily. But there are ways to test if it's definently NOT canon. 

A promo comic is NOT canon if: 

1. The comic conflicts with previous established Marvel chronology. 

2. If it has characters in it that are advertising a product, (Spiderman acting as a sponsor for Doritos: Out of character). Those old fruit pie ads would fall in this catagory I'd say. 

3. If it has characters in it that are acting out of character, (while it's one thing for superheroes to pause to warn kids that smoking is bad, if it's Wolverine doing the "smoking is bad" bit, we know it's not canon, since he smokes like a freight train...or he used to). 

How's that for a start? 

Quote: 
>>>
IMPERFECTS is a joint venture with Electronic Arts. It ties in with a Marvel-licensed video game. This has come up before, with QUESTPROBE, which was certainly canon. I can't see anything about IMPERFECTS which would point against it being canon. Elektra seems to be a villain, but that's consistent with her status in WOLVERINE at the moment. 

MEGA MORPHS promotes a toy line being released by Marvel's own sister company Toy Biz. It's an All Ages title, and many of those are out of continuity anyway. We'll have to wait and see, though. It's too early to say at the moment. 
<<<

Since these are other universes we're talking about, (the universe inside the video game, and the universe of the toys), I would think we would treat these like we treat intercompany crossovers: If there's an actual breaking through to another dimension, it's canon. If they expect us to pretend these characters have existed in the same universe all along: not canon.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 12:28 am    
By Jason Doty

I'm definatly game for your first rules for definatly canon, no questions asked. 

But I'm not thrilled with #'s 2 & 3 in the other list. 

You will have to be more specific with this one: 

Quote: 
>>>
2. If it has characters in it that are advertising a product, (Spiderman acting as a sponsor for Doritos: Out of character). Those old fruit pie ads would fall in this catagory I'd say.  
<<<

If Spider-Man is battling the tooth decay monster and he speaks with someone at Crest about what can stop tooth decay, to send a message to kids. I believe this kind of promotion is o.k, because Crest is helping to spread awareness through their product, (This example is made up) or if Spider-Man says he loves Doritos. Thats his view (or the writer that wrote the story) and Marvel approved it that should also be o.k. 


Quote: 
>>>
If it has characters in it that are acting out of character, (while it's one thing for superheroes to pause to warn kids that smoking is bad, if it's Wolverine doing the "smoking is bad" bit, we know it's not canon, since he smokes like a freight train...or he used to).  
<<<

This issue would be debated on every comic somebody did not want in, Someone already said Luke Cage coaching a track team is out of character, (Where I believe Luke Cage was always into helping out his community) and Wolverine not smoking is up to what Marvel's inhouse policy is at the time. If they make him quit, then do a non-smoking giveaway, and then the next group of hire ups miss the fact that he used to chomp cigars and start him smoking again should'nt rule that comic out of continuity. 

Lets just agree to #1 (about not contradicting established continuity, and stipulate that every entree MUST be debated on a case by case bases.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 06:25 am    
By jephyork
Director

Here's another website that gives some details and cover scans for various Spider-Man-themed giveaway books: 

http://home.planet.nl/~p.c.kroon/index.html 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 07:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Lets just agree to #1 (about not contradicting established continuity, and stipulate that every entree MUST be debated on a case by case bases.) 
<<<

Then what you're saying is that there shouldn't *be* special rules for giveaways, since #1 above is one of the rules for regular comics, right? 

Which is fine, since it's your opinion, but just clarifying... 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 11:45 am    
By Jason Doty

I did not mean to be confusing. 

A promo comic is canon if: 

Quote: 
>>>
1. It is referenced in another "canon" Marvel Comic, or noted as canon in one of the Indexes.  
<<<

Agree. 


Quote: 
>>>
2. If it's tied directly into the plot of a specific issue, (don't many of those Wizard 1/2 comics tie directly into the plots?)  
<<<

Agree. 


Quote: 
>>>
If it doesn't match either of those criteria, this doesn't mean it's NOT canon neccesarily.  
<<<

Agree. There for it gets the benifit of the doubt and is reviewed on a case by case basis. 

A promo comic is NOT canon if: 


Quote: 
>>>
1. The comic conflicts with previous established Marvel chronology.  
<<<

Agreed. 


Quote: 
>>>
2. If it has characters in it that are advertising a product, (Spiderman acting as a sponsor for Doritos: Out of character).  
<<<

Disagree. Spider-Man saying he enjoys Doritos is not a chronological problem. ( He does not say this in the comic, but their is a Doritos' truck in the back ground.) 


Quote: 
>>>
3. If it has characters in it that are acting out of character, (while it's one thing for superheroes to pause to warn kids that smoking is bad, if it's Wolverine doing the "smoking is bad" bit, we know it's not canon, since he smokes like a freight train...or he used to). 
<<<

Disagree. This is a highly debatable subject, and people should not be discouraged from atempting to produce evidence to get their said giveaway included, based on a rule that says a character must act a certain way. Like I said in the previous post, the way a character acts will be determined by Marvel editorial of that time, and is always subject to change. 


Quote: 
>>>
Then what you're saying is that there shouldn't *be* special rules for giveaways 
<<<

Personally, Yes. They should be reviewed under the same bases as any other Marvel comic, with no stipulation other than the rules that aply to any Marvel comic, with the exception that it will not be forced into continuity like a regularly established canon book that includes an irreconsilable difference.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 12:22 pm    
By Dhall

I think we can all agree, that if a promo book is referred to in another story, it is canon, but what if it is referred to in a new handbook and not in an actual story? 


(I'm thinking the answer will be yes, but I thought I'd ask the question.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 02:30 pm    
By rhod

Just thought I'd mention that Wolverine has, on at least one occasion, said that smoking is bad (round about UX250, to Jubilee) and that he wouldn't smoke and drink himself if he didn't have his healing factor to compensate for the damage he's doing himself.

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 03:26 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Disagree. Spider-Man saying he enjoys Doritos is not a chronological problem.  
<<<

That's not the point, though. The question of chronology doesn't even arise unless the book is in continuity to start with. Blatant advertising is an indication that Marvel regard the story as an advert, not as a canonical story.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 04:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Personally, Yes. They should be reviewed under the same bases as any other Marvel comic, with no stipulation other than the rules that aply to any Marvel comic, with the exception that it will not be forced into continuity like a regularly established canon book that includes an irreconsilable difference. 
<<<

That's not an exception, though, since giveaway books *aren't* regularly established canon books. The vast majority of giveaways are one-shots. 


watching: degrassi jr high

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 04:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I think we can all agree, that if a promo book is referred to in another story, it is canon, but what if it is referred to in a new handbook and not in an actual story? 


(I'm thinking the answer will be yes, but I thought I'd ask the question.) 
<<<

Whether the reference comes from a handbook or a book, I'd want it to be a pretty strong reference. For instance, one of the new crop of handbook writers may succeed in inserting a comment like: "Spider-Man enjoys eating strawberry-iced Pop Tarts." That doesn't mean the Pop-Tarts giveaway is canon. It only means that Spider-Man enjoys eating strawberry-iced Pop Tarts. But if the reference is strong... 

The Official Handbook is intended to be an indication of what Marvel considers canon, so, yeah, it'd be canon (unless it *can't* be  ). And anyone who didn't *want* it to be canon--like, say, me--could just blip over that when they're reading the listings. 


watching: degrassi jr. high

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Thread 21

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:16 am    Post subject: Powerless
By jephyork
Director

So, looking through the recent #6, I'm guessing the series isn't canon? 

It was obvious from the start that William Watts was the analogue for the Watcher -- and this is confirmed on the last page of #6. But, rather than going the route I thought it was going -- namely "some cosmic catastrophe has altered the Marvel Universe and William Watts must alter it back to normal", the series seemed to explain Watts' hallucinations of the MU as, basically, "we all dream of a different world". 

Am I reading this right? Is it a fully non-canon series that just happens to feature the lead character inexplicably dreaming about MU-like characters? Or are there ANY indications, through the series, that William Watts is actually somehow viewing the real Marvel Universe? 

I'm hoping for the former -- because, based on the costume lineups seen in #1, I doubt Watt's flashbacks will fit ANYwhere without some serious shoehorning. 

Thoughts, anyone? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:58 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I thought the series was designed to be non-canon.

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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Back in July, Paul O'Brien thought it might be -- and I tended to agree with him. 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=401 

Good thing #6 came out in time for me to cancel my pre-order for the trade paperback.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:41 pm    
By Enda80

Quick question; in the Powerless series, were there any references to that world having their own fictional characters?

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Thread 22

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 09:30 am    Post subject: Post-House of M continuity: calendar clues
By Paul Bourcier
Director

We may have some clues that at least some aspects of the post-House of M Marvel Universe pick up on pre-House of M continuity. 

Take the first story arc in TOXIN. In Toxin #3, we see the Answer, who was part of the mass breakout from the Raft at Rykers Island six months ago. This means that Toxin #3 occurs six months after New Avengers #1-2. Weve been told (frequently) that New Avengers #1-2 occur six months after Disassembled, so Toxin #3 occurs twelve months after Avengers #503. 

Weve deduced that Disassembled occurs sometime between the beginning of the school year at the Xavier Institute and the Halloween of Fantastic Four #517. That places A 500-503 sometime during September or October. Likewise, it would place Toxin #3 during September or October of the following year. 

(Side note...More specifically, the Answer notes in Toxin #3 that its been six months, two weeks, three days, five hours, thirty seconds since the breakout. In order for Toxin #3 to occur both six months generally and six months, two weeks specifically after New Avengers #1-2 would mean that the Raft breakout must occur during the first half of a month and the Toxin story during the second half of a month. It is likely that the breakout occurs during the first half of April rather than the first half of March, given that the three-month Enemy of the State saga in Wolverines title (pre-New Avengers) would need to occur after the "Christmas" of X-Men #165. Still working on squeezing that chronology in. That in turn would place Disassembled in the previous October. So yes, Im still playing with the calendar update, but I digress...) 

The placement of Toxin #3 in late October is reinforced (or at least not contradicted) by the mixture we see there of bare trees and trees with green and brown leaves, by the jackets worn by characters, and by a reference in Toxin #2 to school work. 

House of M #1 ties in directly to New X-Men: Academy X #14, which occurs at the end of the school year at the Xavier Institute. The gathering of X-Men and Avengers in HOM 1 occurs the same day as the year-end prize-giving ceremony at Xaviers. That event likely occurs in late May or early June, about five months before Toxin #3. And, of course, we know that House of M occurs after the Raft breakout since the New Avengers are involved in HOM (and given Sentrys presence in HOM 1, its likely after A4 11.) 

Using deductive reasoning and assuming that all temporal references Ive noted are authentic (yeah, big assumption), then we have a story occurring after the House of M arc that draws on continuity (the Raft breakout) that occurs before House of M. I see this as a good sign. 

The current story arc in Marvel Knights Spider-Man (#13-#18) may also occur after House of M. M/KSM 13 is set at the beginning of summer school, so its after the end of the public school academic year. That might place the story arc after the year-end ceremony at the Xavier Institute and thus after House of M. Of course, the academic year at Xaviers might have run longer than usual for some reason, but again I see this as a positive sign for continued continuity. 

And of course weve already brought up the issue of New X-Men: Hellions running past the day on which HOM 1 is supposed to occur. Another good sign.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 02:39 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Placing MARVEL KNIGHT SPIDER-MAN #13 after HOUSE OF M may not work, depending on how events go in NEW AVENGERS. The Avengers line-up is a problem. Sentry isn't present in MKSM, but he's joined by the time of HOUSE OF M #1. Also, the MKSM Avengers include Spider-Woman, and while we're not expressly told that she's left by the time of HOUSE OF M #1, she certainly doesn't seem to be there.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 03:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Looks like we'll have to wait...again. But the absence of the Sentry in MKSM doesn't necessarily mean he's not a member of New Avengers at that point; he's just not there. Likewise with Spider-Woman in House of M.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 04:18 pm
By Paul O'Brien
Director

True, but if we DO establish that Spider-Woman leaves and Sentry joins before HOUSE OF M - which isn't implausible, given the subplot that Spider-Woman is spying on the Avengers for an outside agency - then it would be a pretty fair indication of where these stories are meant to take place relative to NEW AVENGERS, and I'd place more stress on that than on calendar references.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, for me an explicit reference in M/KSM to Spider-Woman having left would be the clincher. Her absence alone would be a "fair" indication of creator intent. But again, having a late end of year for the Xavier Institute would not be a big problem. We'll see. 

BTW, I noticed that at the beginning of House of M #1, it's supposed to be "six months" after Disassembled, and thus the same month as A4 1-6, which is also "six months" after Disassembled. By my reckoning that would mean April. That doesn't work too well with the end of the school year tie-in with House of M #1. My solution is to put a gap between pages 6 and 7 of House of M #1. The first six pages, with Xavier trying to help Wanda, would be in April; the rest of the comic would be in late May or early June to tie in suitably with New X-Men: Academy X #14.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 12:04 am    
By jephyork
Director

Or you could simply ignore the "six months" reference -- after all, it came from Bendis. 

Just squint and pretend it says "around six months" or "at least six months". It sure beats putting TWO-MONTH LONG HOLES into stories that are supposed to occur all the same day, just to square a Bendis temporal reference. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 12:10 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

That reference to "6 months ago" is on a recap page. It's practically the exact same recap page that's shown on the first page of each issue of New Avengers. I'm not inclined to treat them as part of the story. Even though the recap page in House of M #1 is 5 pages into the story, I'd still treat it's references as not part of the actual story. 

The Recap page on the 1st page of each issue of Daredevil still says that the whole "DD overthrows the Kingpin" event happened "a year ago." Though you would think we've moved a bit forward in time since then...I suspect we'll still see the recap pages in New Avengers referring to "6 months ago" for another year... 

Now mind you, if we see actual references in the actual HoM story saying it was 6 months ago, then we might start having a problem...but then again, this is Bendis, and sometimes, Bendis references don't stick, (which is unfortunate, because it's nice when writers give us definative time references)....
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 05:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
Or you could simply ignore the "six months" reference -- after all, it came from Bendis. 

Just squint and pretend it says "around six months" or "at least six months". It sure beats putting TWO-MONTH LONG HOLES into stories that are supposed to occur all the same day, just to square a Bendis temporal reference.  
<<<

Yes, it is Bendis, the Master of Messed-Up Temporal References.  But by the same token, how do we really know HOM 1 was intended to occur all in one day? (Actually, Xavier does need to get from Genosha to New York, so it may be more than a day anyway.) I figure there's no harm done in putting a gap in there, especially since it won't change character chronologies at all. I don't see any appearances by Xavier, Wanda, or Magneto going into that gap.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 08:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I don't see any appearances by Xavier, Wanda, or Magneto going into that gap. 
<<<

Not yet, but once the two-month gap exists, it'll be irresistably tempting to put appearances there. 


watching: detroit vs san antonio

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 05:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, maybe a future flashback or two, if the story calls for it. But with House of M already ramping up now, there aren't likely to be more pre-HOM appearances by those three characters.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 07:40 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, sure, if the *story* calls for it, but we're both talking about the calendar. What if calendar references call for placement in that gap? You'll want to place those flashbacks in the gap, right? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 09:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Not if it doesn't make sense from the POV of character chronologies. I...not...slave...to...calendar...references,...guys... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 23

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 10:19 am    Post subject: Stick as the boy in Wolverine#113? Probably not....
By Enda80

Mr. Ronald Byrd chimed in: 

.................................................................... 
As seen in Drake's origin in Elektra Volume, uh, Most Recent, Stick circa the 1950s looked much as he does now (i.e. white-haired old guy), so it seems unlikely that he'd have been a teen in the 1920s; of course, the Elektra story came years after the Wolverine story, but if Larry "Continuity Antichrist" Hama couldn't be bothered to identify the youth as Stick so that subsequent Stick revelations would take it into account, it's no one's fault but his own. I was just concerned that someone would declare it was Karl Mordo, which would be at 
odds with HIS established origin of joining the Ancient One in 1939. 

(Slight error on Mr. Byrd's part; the fb took place in 1937; which actually places it about 13 years before the 1950's.)

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 11:35 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Um...*what* issue of Elektra is this shown in? 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 03:59 pm    
By Enda80

Elektra II#19 I think he had in mind.

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 04:55 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Although I haven't read the two issues in question, if the descriptions given here are accurate, I don't personally see these two chronological references as irreconcilable. Stick, in his modern appearances, doesn't look like he's far past his late fifties (although that really depends on the artist). If he was a teen in the '20s, then he would be in his late thirties at the youngest, or early fifties at the oldest, in the '50s. So he looked old for his age even back then; that doesn't make either flashback inherently unworkable. 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 05:17 pm    
By Enda80

Mr. Curtin, the flasback took place in 1937, only 13 to 23 years before any year in the 1950's.

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 10:37 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Mr. McDonaugh, you can use our first names if you want to. 

And personally, I think it's folly to say that certain appearances couldn't be possible because the calendar years given don't match perfectly. This is comic books we're talking about -- this is MARVEL TIME we're using -- given calendar dates aren't fixed, actual dates. They're fluid. A flashback that takes place in "1937" in a comic published five years ago might take place in "1938" the next time it's referenced, or "1943" -- who cares? The point is, it was "many decades ago" from the time the comic that referenced it was published. 

Besides, maybe Stick just went gray early? I mean, Prof. X went bald while still in college -- that sort of thing will make you look older than you are. 

I think the two references can stand. 

And Larry Hama as the Continuity Antichrist? Dear God, the man doesn't deserve that. He wrote some fantastic stuff, and never went off the continuity rails that *I* could see. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 24

Posted: 14 Jun 2005 10:47 am    Post subject: Marvel Adventures Could be Canon?
By John Simons

I realize that the newfangled "Marvel Age" line that came out last year was quickly dismissed for our purposes, being rewrites of already-existing stories. But according to what Sean McKeever had to say in an interview with Newsarama, the newly-christened "Marvel Adventures" line may be a different animal. Ultimately they may turn out to be non-canon as well, but it sounds like someone will have to at least take a gander at them and not dismiss them out of hand. 

Quote: 
>>>
NRAMA: Along with working on Gravity, you're now the writer for Marvel Adventures Spider-Man. Most people assume the "Adventures" line of Spider-Man comics is just a new name for the old "Marvel Age" label Spider-Man books. But the Marvel Adventures line is a little different, isn't it? 

SM: What was happening during the original release of Marvel Age Spider-Man, and when I was writing Marvel Age Fantastic Four, was that they were taking the original runs of Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four, and having writers basically doing a "cover" (for lack of a better term) of the original issue. So it was really easy to just hire two or three writers at a time and just divide up the issues, giving one or just a few to each writer. I think their reason for doing that was that they were starting this digest line, and they wanted to come up with enough of a library that bookstores would take them seriously. 

NRAMA: What's different now with Marvel Adventures Spider-Man? 

SM: We're doing original stories, beginning with Issue #4. The first issue was a retelling of the origin. Issues #2 and #3 were a retelling of Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1. And then #4 is a Spider-Man-Human Torch Team-Up, which is an original story. Issue #5 is my first issue, and I'll be doing original stories from here on out. 
<<<


Quote: 
>>>
NRAMA: You say they're original stories, but they take place back when Peter was in high school. Do these issues fit into continuity? 

SM: The way I see it is, if you squint your eyes just right, it could be in continuity. I'm making sure that I'm not disrespecting continuity or going against continuity, but at the same time we're not referencing it in any way. So you can just pick up any issue on its own and not need to know anything about Spider-Man besides his origin, and you don't even have to know that because it's recapped in a little blurb just like in the old days. 

NRAMA: You say you're "making sure" you're not going against continuity. Have you researched the stories? 

SM: Oh, yeah. Because of the fact that we're actually doing that era -- from the first 25 issues or so of Amazing Spider-Man where he was in high school -- I've actually gone through and read all the Untold Tales of Spider-Man, Amazing Fantasy #15-18 (those three issues that Kurt Busiek wrote in the '90s), and then I read, obviously, Amazing Spider-Man #1-30 or so. So I've kept track of all that stuff. And I actually have also read other things, like Marvel Saga, keeping track of what other characters were around at that time. So I'm going to dip into the pool outside of the characters that appeared in Spider-Man during that era, but it's the kind of stories that will fit. It's not like I'll have Venom show up or something, because he wasn't around at that time. I can't do that. So we are going to respect continuity. 
<<<

_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 06:02 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Marvel Adventures line was described as taking place in the Marvel Universe in Marvel's solicitations for the first issues.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 08:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So Marvel Adventures Spider-Man is supposed to occur in the mainstream MU during Spidey's early days. And what about Marvel Adventures Fantastic Four? From the costumes shown on the covers, it looks like present-day stories, presumably in the mainstream MU.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 25

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 07:36 pm    Post subject: Strange Tales 120 question
By Jason Doty

Why is Strange Tales 120 inbetween the pages of UX 5, instead of shortly after. I think Jeph! adressed this question long ago, but I'm unable to find it in the posts.

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 09:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 states that Prof. X, Iceman, the Angel, and Marvel Girl appear in ST 120 between panels of UX 5.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 03:30 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Aha, but some time ago on this board (before the switch to the new version, I believe) I wrote an essay on why Strange Tales #120 shouldn't occur between pages of UX5. Let's see if I can find it on my hard drive... Nope, can't find it. I'll try to dredge up my reasoning from deep within my head... 

OK, here's the sequence of events. 

UX4 - the X-Men fight the Brotherhood in Santo Marco. The X-Men win, but Professor X is 'injured' by a bomb. 

UX5 - the X-Men arrive back at the mansion, carrying an injured Xavier. Some time later Mastermind is prowling around outside, and mentions that the Brotherhood have been searching for the X-Men for weeks. 

ST 120 - Johnny is reading the newspaper, which has a report on a battle between the X-Men and the Brotherhood. But which battle? The one in Santo Marco? That was weeks ago, according to Mastermind. An undocumented battle? Probably not, or Mastermind would have mentioned something - he clearly implies that the Brotherhood have not seen the X-Men since their battle in Santo Marco. 

The obvious answer is that it's the battle in UX5, the one where Angel gets kidnapped. There's no gap between Angel's kidnap and the end of UX5 where ST 120 could fit. It's possible that Johnny's reading an old newspaper, but why would he? ST 120 should be placed just after UX5 in the chronologies of all concerned.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 07:54 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It doesn't work that way. When Marvel (or the MCP, for that matter) says that an appearance takes place at a particular point, pointing out what you think is a more "common sense" placement isn't enough. You have to show why the current placement can't work. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 12:00 pm    
By Jason Doty

The Marvel Index's make mistakes, pointing out that story flow works better elsewhere is an important issue. It helps to better the chronology. I don't see the point of shoehorning a issue between the pages of another when it appears to not fit, and does not make sence. The Original Index (magazine size) says it comes after. I have'nt looked at the other index's, but did they give a reason as to why it is there? 

I also know that the board decides the placement basing it off of the Marvel Index's, but I thought this was a jumping off point, not the law. I realize the Administrator does not like to deviate from the indexes, but it would not be the first time it occured.

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 04:03 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The Marvel Index's make mistakes, pointing out that story flow works better elsewhere is an important issue. It helps to better the chronology. 
<<<

You have to offer evidence that it's a mistake. Simply saying, "I prefer a different placement," or "I don't understand why they put it here," isn't evidence. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I don't see the point of shoehorning a issue between the pages of another when it appears to not fit, and does not make sence. The Original Index (magazine size) says it comes after. I have'nt looked at the other index's, but did they give a reason as to why it is there? 
<<<

For the most recent edition, no, but then again, they don't give reasons for any of their placements. It's the Official Index, just like there's an Official Handbook. If they say it, then it's so, unless it can't be so. They don't have to offer a reason. For that matter, neither do we. 

But now that you ask... 

The first edition of the Official Index, written by Olshevsky, has this to say about UX 5: 

George Olshevsky wrote: 
>>>
This story takes place in two parts. The first part, from page 1 through panel 1 page 9, happens two or three days after the story in the previous issue, which is how long it takes for the X-Men to return from Santo Marco with Professor X. Magneto's remark that he and his partners have been searching for the X-Men for "weeks" is a topical reference. 

The second part of this story, from panel 2 page 9 through page 24, does take place "weeks" after the first part. During the interval between the two parts, while Magneto and his mutants search for the X-Men and plan their destruction, Iceman meets the Human Torch in the Human Torch story in STRANGE TALES (first series) #120. The Angel, Marvel Girl, and a supposedly convalescing Professor X also appear there." 
<<<


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I also know that the board decides the placement basing it off of the Marvel Index's, but I thought this was a jumping off point, not the law. I realize the Administrator does not like to deviate from the indexes, but it would not be the first time it occured. 
<<<

Where else have we deviated from the Index without first showing that the Index placement couldn't work?

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 05:12 pm    
By Jason Doty

An attempt at evidence: 

At the begining of UX 5 the X-Men return to the Mansion with an injured Professor X 
Between the afore mentioned panels. We have Magneto reprimanding the Brotherhood (pg.9 pn.1) and the next panel says "Not long afterwards" (pg.9 pn.2) Cyclops gets upset at Iceman for asking him to check out a track meet, because he should be concerned about the Professor. 
At the end of this comic the Professor reveals he's been faking. 

The story in Strange Tales, suggests that inbetween these two panels we insert a story that has all the X-Men trying to get a date with Jean, and when Iceman misses out, The Professor who does not appear injured suggests he go out for a night on the town. 

This makes no sense. It fits nicely after the issue, like the original Olshevsky index states. 

My evidence is the "Not long afterwards" comment and that no one is concerned for the Professor and that he does not appear to be injured. 

Thanks for posting the second index's reasoning, but they offered no evidence to as why, and eluded to a "supposedly convalescing Professor X," 

The author or the editors of the index don't seem compleatly sure.  

Also I can not state a time when the project deviated from the index, my comment is unsupported. (though I've thought it has been debated)

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 08:11 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
An attempt at evidence: 

At the begining of UX 5 the X-Men return to the Mansion with an injured Professor X 
Between the afore mentioned panels. We have Magneto reprimanding the Brotherhood (pg.9 pn.1) and the next panel says "Not long afterwards" (pg.9 pn.2) Cyclops gets upset at Iceman for asking him to check out a track meet, because he should be concerned about the Professor. 
At the end of this comic the Professor reveals he's been faking. 

The story in Strange Tales, suggests that inbetween these two panels we insert a story that has all the X-Men trying to get a date with Jean, and when Iceman misses out, The Professor who does not appear injured suggests he go out for a night on the town. 

This makes no sense. It fits nicely after the issue, like the original Olshevsky index states. 
<<<

But that's still, basically, "it should be changed because I don't understand it." While it's true that they don't go into detail about *why* they made the change, I hope we can agree that Olshevsky must have *had* a reason, before he changed it. And as I said before, they're under no obligation to explain *why* it's placed there, any more than the Handbook is under the obligation to explain why a character has a particular nickname. It's simply enough that the Official Index says this story occurs..."here." 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Also I can not state a time when the project deviated from the index, my comment is unsupported. (though I've thought it has been debated) 
<<<

To clarify: You're right; there have been many instances where we've deviated from the index, but only after convincing ourselves that the index *can't* be right. We don't deviate from the Index because "we don't like it", or because "we don't understand why they've used a particular placement." Our understanding isn't necessary. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 08:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The author or the editors of the index don't seem compleatly sure.  
<<<

The "supposedly" doesn't mean the editors aren't sure; it means that Xavier seems normal in ST 120, even though he has to be recovering. The editors are sure. Olshevsky's Marvel Comics Index 9B notes that ST 120 occurs after UX 5. But then Olshevsky's Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 1 #1 notes a placement of ST 120 between panels 1 and 2 of page 9 of UX 5. There was a conscious decision to move ST 120. This is a refinement of the original Index, based on more research. Then, the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #1 reinforces the decision to place ST 120 between panels of UX 5. 

The placement stands.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 09:23 pm    
By Jason Doty

If the placement stands it does. I was not insinuating that I know more than anyone else. I have attempted to offer evidence, but for some reason you think I want it changed because I don't know why it is there rather than after reading it, it does not fit there. That is the reasoning behind my post. 

It does not fit or flow there. While I do believe that Olshevsky could of had a reason to move it. There is no evidence I see to support it (Yes, I know the Board, or the Administrator, or Marvel does not answers to me, and this debate is soley my oppinion), and as far as the Official Index, I believe Marvel just capitolized on the hard work he did and reprinted it adding issues to the current date. 

Is it at all possible that the mistake was made in the second volume and then copied into the third one? 

A month or so ago everyone was upset that someone named Wolverine's son in a handbook, and wanted them to back up their facts. Marvel printed it, therefor it stands was not what I got out of the posts. 

Even if you do not want to go against the indexes for they are the basis of this site, please don't think my reasoning is off. I can't come up with one reason to keep it there, but many not to, and was just posting this to get oppinions on the placement. Hopeing someone could offer insite.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2005 10:51 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
If the placement stands it does. I was not insinuating that I know more than anyone else. I have attempted to offer evidence, but for some reason you think I want it changed because I don't know why it is there rather than after reading it, it does not fit there. That is the reasoning behind my post. 

It does not fit or flow there. While I do believe that Olshevsky could of had a reason to move it. There is no evidence I see to support it (Yes, I know the Board, or the Administrator, or Marvel does not answers to me, and this debate is soley my oppinion), 
<<<

Jason, please don't take any of those previous posts personally, as they're not intended in that spirit. We're simply attempting to explain the policies that we use, and the processes that have to be followed, in accordance with those policies. No one is trying to imply that "We know more than you, because we're the Board." And it's not just that Marvel doesn't have to explain it to you; they don't have to explain it to *me*, either. So I'm in the same boat you are. 

I'll tell you a story. If you'll dig up some of the archives of the original posting board, you'll find some posts by some guy named Jeph York who was engaged in a debate with a couple of Directors. Reading between the lines, you can barely sense that Jeph at times felt like he was expected to bow to the will of the Directors, simply because they were Directors. Jeph was assured that wasn't the case, and was encouraged to speak his piece. 

And lo and behold, after many weeks and months, Jeph found himself on the Board of Directors.* 

Be not discouraged; be of good cheer! You, Jason, are the young whippersnapper who comes bursting into the boardroom, eager to make change, only to be confronted with a roomful of old fuddy-duddies. It's difficult to convince us to change the way we do things. And that's a good thing. 

The comment that you may have interpreted as "We don't have to tell you why we've put things the way we have" has a history. We determined, almost from the beginning, that we couldn't place ourselves in a position where we had to justify every placement, or we'd never get any real work done. We had to come up with a placement; we placed it. If someone writes in to say, "Ehhh, I don't like that placement; my placement works a little better," and we say, "Okay!" and then make the change.... 

Six months later, guaranteed, somebody else writes in and says, "Ehhh, I don't like that placement; my placement works a little better." 

So we concluded: "This is where we say it goes. You don't like it? We're fine with that. No one's taping your eyes open and forcing you to read it in that order. Read it in whatever order you want. This is our order." 

Distinguish that from showing us that it *can't* work the way we say. We've always been ready and willing to make changes on *that* basis. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Is it at all possible that the mistake was made in the second volume and then copied into the third one? 
<<<

Yes, that's absolutely possible. But in this case, unlikely. And in any case, the mere possibility is not evidence. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
A month or so ago everyone was upset that someone named Wolverine's son in a handbook, and wanted them to back up their facts. Marvel printed it, therefor it stands was not what I got out of the posts. 
<<<

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I can speak for myself. Here's what I had to say on the subject, in that thread: 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
It's a moot point. It's in the Handbook. Unless there's something in the comics themselves to discredit it or contradict it, it's canon. 
<<<

*but not because of his well-reasoned and overarching knowledge of the Marvel Universe and its history; because he promised me a dozen glazed Krispy Kremes. 


watching: leno...and then conan

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Posted: 15 Jun 2005 05:43 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

[quote="Administrator"] 
The first edition of the Official Index, written by Olshevsky, has this to say about UX 5: 

George Olshevsky wrote: 
>>>
This story takes place in two parts. The first part, from page 1 through panel 1 page 9, happens two or three days after the story in the previous issue, which is how long it takes for the X-Men to return from Santo Marco with Professor X. Magneto's remark that he and his partners have been searching for the X-Men for "weeks" is a topical reference. 
<<<


Gahh! It's stuff like this that bugs me about those Indexes. Why is it topical? Why disregard a statement from Mastermind to support a placement that is most certainly not implied anywhere in either issue? I seriously can't follow the logic at all. 

That said, I do understand why the MCP defers to the Official Indexes in these cases - it's Marvel's will, and that's enough. Personally I disagree that the Indexes should be taken as gospel, but that's a matter for my own personal chronology projects, I guess. It does seem a little inconsistent to me though - if you're deferring to Marvel's will in regards to placement in the Indexes, why not with updated origins and the like?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 15 Jun 2005 06:17 am    
By jephyork
Director

The thing that I'm just starting to learn about the Indexes is -- Olshevsky, and later Murray Ward, had their eyes on the big picture. Although there's nothing in UX #5 that makes the "weeks" reference unworkable, it probably conflicts with the larger Marvel Universe and *their* time references. 

This is also likely why ST #120 is placed, without comment, between pages of UX #5 -- because, looking at the *bigger picture*, it can't fit anywhere else. ST #120 probably fits between certain issues of FF, which occur after certain issues of Journey Into Mystery, which cross over with certain issues of Tales of Suspense, which occur between certain issues of Spider-Man, which tie directly into certain issues of X-Men -- resulting in a placement betwen pages of UX #5. But the Index isn't explicitly telling us that logic, because it's only concerned with presenting us the X-Men's slice of the larger MU picture. 

Just because we don't know Olshevsky's reasoning doesn't mean that his reasoning was flawed. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Jun 2005 11:24 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
I'll tell you a story. If you'll dig up some of the archives of the original posting board, you'll find some posts by some guy named Jeph York who was engaged in a debate with a couple of Directors. Reading between the lines, you can barely sense that Jeph at times felt like he was expected to bow to the will of the Directors, simply because they were Directors. Jeph was assured that wasn't the case, and was encouraged to speak his piece. 

And lo and behold, after many weeks and months, Jeph found himself on the Board of Directors.  
<<<

Jeph....bright boy...wonder whatever became of him.... 

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2005 04:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

He's in a dirty alley in the bad part of Boston, last I heard, drinking his woes away. Poor bastard. 

-Jeph! 

EDIT: Russ, if you really want those Krispy Kremes, I'm going to need your address. And credit card information...

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 15 Jun 2005 06:41 pm    Post subject: Is Pussycat canon?
By ShadZ

Is Pussycat (October, 1968 -- read more about it here: http://comics.ign.com/articles/624/624620p1.html ) canon? 

Reasons you might think it was canon: 

1. It was published by Marvel, during the Silver Age to boot! 

2. The stories were written and drawn mainly by folks from the Bullpen (the main exception being Bill Ward). 

Reasons you might not think it was canon: 

1. The fact that Marvel published it was hidden in the indica, not trumpeted on the cover. 

2. All stories were reprints from men's adventure magazines published by other companies (companies also owned b Martin Goodman). 

NOTE: None of my reasons are based on reading the stories, because I haven't done that. I don't own a copy of Pussycat.
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 16 Jun 2005 07:27 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

A tricky case, but my inclination would be no. When the stories were originally published, they were pretty clearly non-canon - they weren't published by Marvel, didn't bear the Marvel logo, and there's no reason to think that they were originally intended to form part of the Marvel Universe. A non-canon story doesn't become canon just because Marvel reprint it. 

Of course, if Marvel had referenced her somewhere along the line, that would be another matter.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 27

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 05:27 pm    Post subject: UX 300-FB problem
By Jason Doty

In Professor X's chronology, the UX 300-FB is placed between UX 1. It can not work here. The Flashback is of Moira and Charles speaking of how he is going to form the X-Men, It must pre-date his initial gathering of the team.

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 06:00 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The placement of that flashback comes from the 1990s X-Men Index, so it's got Marvel's approval. Besides, I agree with the placement. 

The flashback is a conversation with Xavier telling Moira about the X-Men that he's setting up. We join them in progress with Moira's line "You're serious? You've been talking about this for years. You're going to start a mutant strike force?" Xavier basically replies that it's a school, not a strike force, and then hands over a folder with the words "Care for a peek at the freshman class?" Inside the folder are photos of the five founding X-Men. A page or so later, we establish that Magneto has been taking preparatory steps towards his attack on Cape Citadel from UX 1. 

Presumably you're focussing on the line "You're going to start a mutant strike force?", but other factors outweigh that. 

If Xavier knows that these five are the freshman class then, at the very least, he's identified them all by this point. But Xavier didn't identify Hank or Warren until almost immediately before he recruited them - by which point Scott and Bobby were already on the team. So the flashback can't take place before Xavier starts recruitment. Rather, it's at a stage where Xavier's recruited the X-Men, hasn't debuted them yet, and is telling Moira what he plans to do with them. 

They're not POTENTIALLY the freshman class - they ARE the freshman class. And that doesn't happen until Marvel Girl turns up at the Mansion at the beginning of issue #1. So Murray Ward's placement is right.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 06:55 pm    
By Jason Doty

I focused on several factors. The photos presented of the freshman class show the X-Men prior to joining. The Beast in his football jersey and such. He also talks of complications about admiting foriegn mutants. 

The conversation reads as if he is planning on starting a school, not that he has already done it. 

Magneto steals plans on Cape Citadel and Xavier is suprised he has reserfaced, but we know that he just met with Magneto in -1. 

This whole scene reads as before X-Men no.1, not between it in the course of two days. I know that Minus 1 came out later, but it only helps reinforce my possition that it occurs before UX 1. 

As discussed in the other post, I personnally believe the indexes are riddled with errors, and we should question them when we come across something. 

At the very least it needs to be moved to preceed the issue, not inbetween pages. Jean Grey was with the Xavier long before he even recruited the others. So placing it between Their last appearance and the minus 1 issue would make sense, then UX 1

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2005 08:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Magneto steals plans on Cape Citadel and Xavier is suprised he has reserfaced, but we know that he just met with Magneto in -1. 
<<<

And here I figured that X -1 occurred between UX 1 and 2. X -1 is listed in Pietro's and Wanda's chronologies as after A 47-FB, which occurs after UX 1 (according to the Index). Curiously, Magneto's MCP chronology lists A 47-FB, followed by X -1, then later comes UX 1 (with no A 47-FB after UX 1). Was the Index proven wrong? 

It seems (admittedly without checking the specific issues) that the following order may make sense: 
UX 1 
UX 300-FB 
UX 1 
A 47-FB 
X -1 
UX 2 

Are we placing X -1 before UX because of the "minus 1" number? Remember that it's not Uncanny minus 1, but rather X-Men (as in "adjectiveless" or vol. 2) minus 1.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 09:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
X -1 is listed in Pietro's and Wanda's chronologies as after A 47-FB, which occurs after UX 1 (according to the Index). Curiously, Magneto's MCP chronology lists A 47-FB, followed by X -1, then later comes UX 1 (with no A 47-FB after UX 1). Was the Index proven wrong? 
<<<

More likely a flub on my part. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 09:46 pm    
By Jason Doty

The order that makes sense off the top of my head out of the issues you spoke of is: 

UX -1 (Jean is much younger, Trask storyline) 
A 47-FB 
UX 300-FB (Professor X hears Magneto resurfaced) 
X -1 (Professor X confronts Magneto with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch) 
UX 1 (X-Men fight Magneto)

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2005 11:05 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul O'Brien wrote 
>>>
The placement of that flashback comes from the 1990s X-Men Index, so it's got Marvel's approval. Besides, I agree with the placement.  
<<<

Your own back stories over at X-Axis contridict this and agree with my finding.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2005 06:07 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Your own back stories over at X-Axis contridict this and agree with my finding. 
<<<

Um, not that I can see, they don't. 

As for X -1, Amelia Voght is still at the Mansion. She leaves as soon as Cyclops is recruited (as shown in UX 309-FB). So that story can't take place between UX 1 and 2. It must precede all of the "Origins of the X-Men" back-up strips.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Jun 2005 06:18 am    
By jephyork
Director

I think Jason's confusing his Pauls. 

And, Jason, can't the "Magneto has resurfaced" comment in UX #300-FB mean that he's "resurfaced after the events of X #-1"? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2005 06:50 am    
By Jason Doty

Paul you are correct, I misread, you do not have it in the order of my suggestion, on your site. 

But your order would not make sense because Professor X already knows Magneto has resurfaced, moving the flashback prior to X -1, and A 47-Fb also has to come before X-1. Also we have Cyclops showing up as Amelia Vought leaves also proves my reasoning for moving this flashback prior to him recruiting the other X-Men. 

To answer Jeph's question, reading it in the order I suggested makes sense, but my reasoning for flow is not enough to sway. In the Flashback shows Professor X suprised that he resurfaced, and in X-Men -1 he made it clear to Xavier that he was going to start taking actions into his own hands. 

Gotta get to class!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2005 07:26 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I think Jason's confusing his Pauls. 
<<<

That was my first thought, too, but then, Jason's post quotes Paul O'Brien, and cites Paul O'Brien's page as agreeing with his own (Jason's) chronology, so mixing Paul's didn't seem to be the case. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 15 Jun 2005 04:35 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Jason, I'm going to try to deal with this "resurfaced" comment you seem to be focusing on. Let's go back to Paul O'Brien's comment at the start of the thread, which I've annotated and highlighted: 

Quote: 
>>>
[Xavier's] identified them all [the original X-Men] by this point [proven because he has pictures of them]. But Xavier didn't identify Hank or Warren until almost immediately before he recruited them [as shown in the Origins of the X-Men backup features] - by which point Scott and Bobby were already on the team. So the flashback can't take place before Xavier starts recruitment. 
<<<

Okay, now we know from UX #309 that Amelia Voght left Xavier on Cyclops' first night in the mansion. And she appears in X #-1, which puts that issue before UX #309-FB. 

So the order is: 

X #-1 - Magneto has already recruited Pietro and Wanda, Amelia is still with Xavier. 

UX #309-FB - Scott spends his first night at Xavier's, Amelia leaves him. 

[origins of the X-Men features] - Scott, Bobby, Warren and Hank are recruited as X-Men - in that order. Prof. X has no knowledge of Bobby, Warren or Hank until very shortly before he recruits them. 

UX #300-FB - since Xavier knows of the existence of Hank, Warren and Bobby here, this must occur after all the male X-Men have been recruited. 


So -- regardless of where everything is placed in regards to UX #1, UX #300-FB MUST OCCUR AFTER X #-1. 

That means that the "Magneto has resurfaced" comment CANNOT BE USED as evidence that UX #300-FB occurs before X #-1. It clearly must occur afterwards. 

Therefore ... if you want to convince us that UX #300-FB occurs before UX #1, rather than between pages of it ... you'd better focus your case elsewhere. The "resurfaced" comment isn't going to do it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2005 04:46 pm    
By Jason Doty

I got it. 

The house they are sitting in front of in the flashback is Moira's it is the same house burning in Scotland when the X-Men arrive. So unless Jean showed up at the school, was introduced to the X-Men, Xavier travled to Scotland, had lunch with Moira, then returned before Magneto attacked the next day. I find this hard to stomach, that this flashback took place between pages. 

Yeah!!!! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2005 04:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Huh. That's actually pretty good. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2005 07:15 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I don't have issue #1 to hand, but do we actually know that Marvel Girl has only been with the team for a day before Magneto attacks? 

That aside, it *would* be viable for this flashback to take place after "Origins of the X-Men" but before UX 1. Since UX 1 opens with Jean moving into the Mansion to join the team, there must be an interval before UX 1 where she's been recruited and simply hasn't moved in yet. UX 300-FB could, quite consistently, take place then. In fact, in some ways it would fit rather nicely, as you could assume that Xavier learns Magneto is planning to make a move, and this imminent threat leads him to call up Jean. (That would go some way towards explaining why he doesn't just bring her into the team immediately, given that he's supposedly been training her for years.) 

If I were placing the flashback independently of the Index, I'd probably place it immediately before UX 1 on that basis. Nonetheless, if the Index placement is viable then it wins, because it's Marvel's authoritative interpretation.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Jun 2005 09:34 am    
By Jason Doty

Paul O'Brien wrote. 
>>>
I don't have issue #1 to hand, but do we actually know that Marvel Girl has only been with the team for a day before Magneto attacks? 
<<<

Yes, on page 11 of UX 1, Marvel Girl is being introduced, and Professor X is speaking to her about dangerous mutants. The next caption it says "At that very moment just such a mutant strikes." This is were Magneto sabotages the missile launch. Right after on panel 5 of page 12, it reads "The next day, the startling news is transfered to a startled public," 
and then Magneto strikes. 

With Jeph's imput as well as all who helped in this debate the order would be as follows. 

UX -1 
A 47-FB 
X -1 
UX 309-FB 
*(Origins of the X-Men)* 
UX 300-FB 
UX 1 

Xavier could be suprised that he has resurfaced so quickly after Magneto and his conversation in X-1. Also it fits everyones suggested criteria.

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:56 am    Post subject: Sentry/X-Men-FB
By Jason Doty

As a side project I've been using the MCP to compile a readlist complete with synopsis'. I've started with the first 11 issues of UX. Can any one offer me tentative placement on the FB tale in Sentry/X-Men, and also post any other issues that have stories or flashbacks from this time period (UX 1-11) that have not yet been updated in the MCP?

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:11 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

We've actually got two flashback placements. 

The flashback on pages 4-5 occurs prior to Sentry's team-up with the Avengers in Sentry #1, which must be sometime shortly after Avengers #4 with the resurrection of Captain America. Without looking too closely, I would say this should fit in between UX 2 and 3. 

The main series of flashbacks pits the X-Men against the General. I believe this must occur after Sentry's appearance in Sentry/Fantastic Four which occurs right around FF 21. My guess would place this right around UX 5, although I don't have any of the issues at hand say how exactly the placement would work here.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We know that there's a gap of "weeks" in the middle of UX 5, where ST 120 takes place  . Furthermore, we know that Human Torch appears in ST 120 (in the middle of UX 5, remember), sometime after FF 26. While it's possible that the bulk of stories (and there are many) between FF 21 and ST 120, occur around or during the gap in UX 5, it's worth keeping the time frame in mind. If Sean is correct in his placement relative to Fantastic Four, it may be more likely that the flashback in question occurs prior to UX 4. Does that work, from a story standpoint? 


watching: both sides

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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:48 pm    
By Jason Doty

Administrator wrote 
>>>
We know that there's a gap of "weeks" in the middle of UX 5, where ST 120 takes place .  
<<<

That gap sucks!!!!!!!!!     


(Ha! Ha!)

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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean K. wrote: 
>>>
The flashback on pages 4-5 occurs prior to Sentry's team-up with the Avengers in Sentry #1, which must be sometime shortly after Avengers #4 with the resurrection of Captain America. Without looking too closely, I would say this should fit in between UX 2 and 3. 
<<<

I agree. I have that flashback between UX 2 and 3. 


Sean K. wrote: 
>>>
The main series of flashbacks pits the X-Men against the General. I believe this must occur after Sentry's appearance in Sentry/Fantastic Four which occurs right around FF 21. My guess would place this right around UX 5, although I don't have any of the issues at hand say how exactly the placement would work here. 
<<<

Three things, Sean: 
1) Why would the main series of flashbacks necessarily be after Sentry/FF? 
2) FWIW, I have Sentry/FF between FF 26 and 27 
3) And, if my notes are right, the Marvel Saga places FF 23-26 between UX 3 and 4.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:17 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

1) Offhand, I don't recall in all honesty. At the time, I went through all of the Sentry books and worked out how all of the flashbacks seemed to fit together with regard to Sentry's continuity (which was entirely new at that time). What I posted here was based on my notes from that time (which were actually posted and somewhat debated on the old MCP MB). 

My two guesses for why I choose that placement are a) that the X-Men story fit early in their chronology relative to the FF's placement in their own chronology, or b) Sentry is drawn or represented in a way that shows an evolution from Sentry/X-Men to Sentry/FF. I still don't have the books handy, but I know the FF issue had a very definite and cemented relationship with Lindy, and that may have been why I placed it later. 

2) That sounds about right. I don't think I ever placed the issue relative to the FF book any closer than "sometime not too long after #21". 

3) That looks right. ST 120 occurs between FF 26 and 27, and in the middle of UX 5.

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 17 Jun 2005 08:28 am    Post subject: Dazzler: The Movie Graphic Novel
By Ocean Doot

Hey all, 

I have a question about the placement of Marvel Graphic Novel 12 (Dazzler: The Movie) and the subsequent "Beauty and the Beast" series. 

It seems that both these stories have all been placed at right after Uncanny X-Men 183 -- this makes sense for the first part of the novel, which features an X-Men sequence with Storm using her powers (which she loses is UX 185). However, the latter part of the graphic novel is explicitly concurrent with UX 189 (there's a newscast in both the graphic novel and the end of UX 189 that are virtually word for word). So "Beauty and the Beast" -- since it takes place after the events of MGN 12, should also be placed some time after UX 189 as well. 

Is there any reason why this couldn't work? (And even as I ask, I'm sure there *is* indeed such a reason ... so I guess my real question is, why wouldn't this work?) 

Thanks all! 
Jason Powell

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Posted: 17 Jun 2005 08:59 am    
By Dhall

Whose listing are you questioning? 

Storm is not in B&B, Beast does not appear in UX in this period, Storm is listed for M/GN 12 after UX 183, which you are agreeing with, and Dazzler appears in B&B after M/GN 12. 

So, I'm not seeing a listing which is incorrect. Yes, M/GN 12 occurs over some timeframe, but what difference does that make for the MCP listings?

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2005 04:15 pm    
By Ocean Doot

Yeah, you're right -- I guess it wasn't really an issue of individual listings ... I was thinking more of an overall X-Men chronology list that I have -- and which I believe I acquired from this site at some point several months back. I've gone online and found other chrono-sites, and they all put the entire graphic novel as a package with B&B, and drop the whole thing right after UX 183. 

I was just wondering why the latter section isn't parsed concurrently with UX 189 in anything I've seen online, and was hoping for some insight from the chrono-experts here. But yeah -- in terms of individual listings, this discussion would not affect anything. I was just curious! 

Jason

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 17 Jun 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Franklin Richards
By SKleefeld
Director

Oddball thought that just popped into my head... 

There was some debate over the canonicity of the latest Power Pack series, but I don't think we ever addressed the Franklin Richards back-ups. The stories are pretty innocuous and could drop in anywhere fairly easily, but here's my thought... 

Supposing they are canon, wouldn't it make sense to drop them in shortly before the current main story arc in FF where children's services stops by to discuss whether or not the kids should be taken into custody? Now, certainly, Franklin's safety with his parents' lifestyle is a viable question and makes sense in the FF mythos. But it makes even more sense if Franklin was put into some public situations which would be considered dangerous, such as PP4 3/2 where he changes all of his classmates into fruit. Additionally, we have a situation in FFFOES 3 where Franklin is (unintentionally) left at school. Now, two such incidents in relative close proximity could well prompt a school official to call children's services. And, since PP4 3/2 is a considerably larger -- and considerably less common -- problem, I might suggest a placement something like: 

FFFOES 1-6 
PP4 1/2 
PP4 2/2 
PP4 3/2 
PP4 4/2 
FF3 527 

Although further analysis of future issues would still be needed, this would also suggest placing FOUR 19 after this, as HERBIE has evidently undergone a makeover to now include legs, something he didn't not have in FOUR 18 or PP4 4/2.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2005 04:32 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Allegedly there's a fifth "Franklin Richards" mini-story coming soon -- Marvel plans to repackage the four five-pagers into a one-shot along with a new story. 

And, by the way -- where are you getting the abbreviation "PP4" for the latest Power Pack mini? It's the third volume of the Pack -- and the second one wasn't even called PP2, it was called PP:PP (for "Power Pack: Peer Pressure" -- but since the subtitle didn't appear on the cover of the book, maybe it should be redesignated "PP2" after all). 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2005 08:09 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Allegedly there's a fifth "Franklin Richards" mini-story coming soon -- Marvel plans to repackage the four five-pagers into a one-shot along with a new story. 
<<<

I had heard that. I'm presuming it will be just as innoucous as the previous four. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And, by the way -- where are you getting the abbreviation "PP4" for the latest Power Pack mini? It's the third volume of the Pack -- and the second one wasn't even called PP2, it was called PP:PP (for "Power Pack: Peer Pressure" -- but since the subtitle didn't appear on the cover of the book, maybe it should be redesignated "PP2" after all). 
<<<

My thinking... 

PP -- Power Pack, original series 
PP2 -- Power Pack Holiday Special 
PP3 -- Power Pack: Peer Pressure 
PP4 -- Power Pack, current series 

I didn't bother checking against the key to see what's actually used on the MCP, which would explain the discrepency.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2005 09:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hmm, okay. But personally, I've never called one-shots separate "volumes". For me, a "volume" is a new series, and as such has to have at least two issues -- a one-shot is just a one-shot, and I file it as a special issue of the current volume. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2005 01:39 pm    
By Ant-Man

I don't think that the Power Pack Holiday Special is listed in the MCP Key...

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 18 Jun 2005 06:56 pm    Post subject: Manipulator correction
By Enda80

MANIPULATOR II/ 
A 178 
CA 242 


MANIPULATOR III 
AWC 82-BTS 
AWC 84-BTS 
AWC 85 
AWC 86 

The Manipulator in the Cap issues has no connection to the AWC Manipulator. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/manipulatorrobot.htm 

Sidebar: something strange about the Manipulator. The Captain America issues revealed him as a robot given false memories by Machinesmith. Oddly, he thinks he was a European descended man, but his facial features make him resemble a sub-Saharan African man. Perhaps the writer Steve Gerber had plans to reveal his identity in a future issue?

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 21 Jun 2005 12:27 pm    Post subject: The Petrified Man
By theManThing

I don't see an entry for him.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2005 02:27 pm    
By Dhall

This Petrified Man? 


GAROKK 
AT 2 
AT 3 
AT 4 
AT 5 
UX 115-FB 
UX 116 
UX 149 
UX@ 12 
KZ '97 
KZ4 20

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 21 Jun 2005 06:43 pm    Post subject: Lectronn; how do you list Marvel Age?
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/lectronnma.htm 

http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/Mutant_X_Annual_2001_Lectronn3.jpg 
http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/Mutant_X_Annual_2001_Lectronn.jpg 

Odd that a character from a joke Marvel Age story should make an appearance in Mutant X Annual 2001, but.......

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 21 Jun 2005 09:13 am    Post subject: Wolverine story missing from chronology
By davecohen

looks like the Wolverine: Xisle limited series from June 2003 is missing. Even though the primary story took place "in" Logan's head, the circumstances leading up to his internal confrontation did occur, and the outcome of this was relevant to the character.
_________________
davecohen

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Posted: 21 Jun 2005 09:50 am    
By Dhall

Is it missing, or just not in the MCP yet?

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2005 07:30 am    
By davecohen

No mention of the xisle limited series in MCP. It should be placed right around Wolverine #188.
_________________
davecohen

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 16 Jun 2005 12:03 pm    Post subject: Earth 616?
By Heavy_Metal

I've been trying to figure out what reality this actually is. www.marveldatabase.com claims it's the "real" marvel universe but I'm trying to find something to back that up. 

Is this correct? 

Thanks in advance!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2005 12:34 pm    
By shandrakor

Yes, the core Marvel shared universe is designated Universe 616

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2005 12:51 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

But isn't the answer a little deeper? 

If memory serves, the term first appeared in an Excalibur or Captain Britain story, first used by Merlyn, or Roma, or some other omniscient entity in that mythos. 

Since then, fans have taken to using the notation, to make it clear in their discussions that they're talking about the "mainstream" Marvel Universe. 

So, yes, it's designated "616" by the Captain Britain corps, and yes, it's designated "616" by the fans who care about such things, but is there any evidence that it's designated that way by anyone else? Has Uatu ever referred to it as "616"? Or the Living Tribunal? Surely denizens of "616" don't think of it that way. Surely they think of it as...well...Earth "1", and everything else is an alternate/parallel of the "1". 

Not meaning to argue the point, just to clarify. And I'm honestly asking if anyone outside of the Captain Britain mythos has referred to it that way. 


watching: both sides

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2005 01:22 pm    
By Selaboc

The 616 designation has appeared in some recent Marvel Comics. However, I'm blanking on which books.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2005 01:41 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Handbook has used "Earth-616" as well. I suppose you've got to call it something, although personally I prefer avoiding the name if at all possible, because it just confuses new readers. Moore seems to have chosen it precisely because it was so unmemorable, to indicate that the Marvel Universe was just one world among many, and nothing special.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Jun 2005 02:18 pm    
By loki

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
But isn't the answer a little deeper? 

If memory serves, the term first appeared in an Excalibur or Captain Britain story, first used by Merlyn, or Roma, or some other omniscient entity in that mythos. 
<<<

The numbering system was first used to by two commentators at the trial of Saturnyne. The first person to use the 616 designation for the main Marvel reality was Saturnyne herself, when she identified her witness Brian Braddock as the Captain Britain of Earth-616. Roma used the designations at the funeral of Merlyn, as did the various CB variants. 


Quote: 
>>>
Since then, fans have taken to using the notation, to make it clear in their discussions that they're talking about the "mainstream" Marvel Universe. 
<<<

The introduction of another regular Marvel universe, the Ultimate one, seems to have spurred this on. 


Quote: 
>>>
So, yes, it's designated "616" by the Captain Britain corps, and yes, it's designated "616" by the fans who care about such things, but is there any evidence that it's designated that way by anyone else? Has Uatu ever referred to it as "616"?  
<<<

Yes, Uatu used it in 1602. 


Quote: 
>>>
Or the Living Tribunal? Surely denizens of "616" don't think of it that way. Surely they think of it as...well...Earth "1", and everything else is an alternate/parallel of the "1". 
<<<

Those who know about the multitude of the other realities and that those other realities designate them 616 use it - Captain Britain (Brian Braddock) for example. 


Quote: 
>>>
Not meaning to argue the point, just to clarify. And I'm honestly asking if anyone outside of the Captain Britain mythos has referred to it that way. 
<<<

Yes. Uatu has, and it's been used in Exiles. Probably elsewhere as well, but those examples spring to mind.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2005 05:25 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

loki wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Surely denizens of "616" don't think of it that way. Surely they think of it as...well...Earth "1", and everything else is an alternate/parallel of the "1". 
<<<

Those who know about the multitude of the other realities and that those other realities designate them 616 use it - Captain Britain (Brian Braddock) for example. 
<<<

Well, yes, but *only* because he's a member of the Captain Britain corps. But not Reed Richards, or Doctor Doom, or Rick Jones, all of whom have intimate knowledge of alternate realities, and none of whom I can imagine giving a fig about what other realities called their Earth, even if they *did* know about the Exiles, or Saturnyne. 

And is it really accurate to say that "other realities" designate Earth 616, or is it the Captain Britain corps? 

Point taken about Uatu, though. Can we get some specifics about the citation in Exiles?

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2005 06:16 pm    
By loki

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
loki wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Surely denizens of "616" don't think of it that way. Surely they think of it as...well...Earth "1", and everything else is an alternate/parallel of the "1". 
<<<

Those who know about the multitude of the other realities and that those other realities designate them 616 use it - Captain Britain (Brian Braddock) for example. 
<<<

Well, yes, but *only* because he's a member of the Captain Britain corps. 
<<<

The Corps, not the Captain Britain Corps. Up until Ben Raab erroneously used the latter name in the Excalibur mini-series (one of a number of continuity mistakes he made in that series), members only ever called the assembled heroes "The Corps" - others who knew Captain Britain did occasionally call it the Captain Britain Corps, but that's akin to saying "the Cyclops X-Men" - you don't name a group after one member. The group and Roma called them the Corps. 


Quote: 
>>>
But not Reed Richards, or Doctor Doom, or Rick Jones, all of whom have intimate knowledge of alternate realities, and none of whom I can imagine giving a fig about what other realities called their Earth, even if they *did* know about the Exiles, or Saturnyne. 
<<<

I disagree - Doctor Doom is arrogant, and so probably wouldn't use the term if he felt he had a better one, but Reed Richards is too much the scientist to not use "correct interdimensional terminology" once he knew what it was, while Rick Jones is too much the fanboy - I think both would use the term if they learned of it. 


Quote: 
>>>
And is it really accurate to say that "other realities" designate Earth 616, or is it the Captain Britain corps?  
<<<

Yes, it is accurate to say "other realities" designate Earth-616 - the term is used by the Dimensional Development Court, the commentators at Saturnyne's trial who were describing things to viewers across their Earth and likely beyond (in a reality which is used to interdimensional travel), Roma and Uatu. I don't think the Corps chose the numbers, they just adopted the use of them to keep track of where the individual members came from. 


Quote: 
>>>
Point taken about Uatu, though. Can we get some specifics about the citation in Exiles? 
<<<

I believe it was when the Exiles visited Earth-616 and picked up Beak, but don't quote me on that, as I don't have the issues to hand to check. Looking online at Wikipedia, it appears the term was also used in the Marvel Knights Fantastic Four #15, during the Ramades storyline.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2005 09:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I seem to recall the Time Variance Authority (did I get that name right?) mention "616" in an issue of FF some time ago, but that may be my imagination.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2005 06:23 am    
By jephyork
Director

Mr. Mobius referred to the MU as Earth-616, during a conversation with Reed Richards, in 4 #15 (I think that's the right issue number - the start of the Divine Time arc). 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2005 06:51 am    
By Dhall

It was mentioned in X-Man once or twice.....

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2005 09:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yes, Steven Grant used it in his X-MAN stories - although everyone seems to have ignored the fact that he destroyed one planet Earth with a lower number and then redesignated the mainstream Earth as Earth 615. Presumably because it doesn't make sense - the alternate earth's universe was still there, it just had a big lump of rubble where our planet ought to be.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2005 10:22 am    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Yes, Steven Grant used it in his X-MAN stories - although everyone seems to have ignored the fact that he destroyed one planet Earth with a lower number and then redesignated the mainstream Earth as Earth 615. Presumably because it doesn't make sense - the alternate earth's universe was still there, it just had a big lump of rubble where our planet ought to be. 
<<<

Plus, of course, the story that introduced the 616 designation destroyed a universe in the 200s without altering the 616 numbering.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2005 05:09 pm    
By loki

Exactly. If Route 66 was destroyed, they wouldn't rename all the Routes numbered 67 and above down by one, would they? Same principle.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2005 01:24 pm    
By Sijo

One thing is sure: regardless of what Uatu and the rest call it, the Main Marvel Universe IS the prime reality, the one the others first began to generate from, and the one whose existence is vital to the multiverse. This has been proven in (among other places) the Immortus/Scarlet Witch storyline from Byrne's West Coast Avengers (which of course influences the current House of M crossover.) That makes the numeration strange, unless a) they're just adopting a system invented long ago that didn't take this fact into consideration, and just keep using it out of habit (the way America never switched to the more correct Metric measurement system) or b) it's a trick to hide the importance of this reality to "lesser" beings who might find out about the existence of the Multiverse. The Nexus of All Realities is also located on this Earth, correct?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2005 01:46 pm    
By rhod

I was under the inpression that the Nexus existed in all realities, ie. the nexus is the point where they all meet. 
Also, I thought that the different universes designated 616, 238 etc. were all separate in the Omniverse, as opposed to being divergent realities in the multiverse, a la What If?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2005 05:28 pm    
By Enda80

"One thing is sure: regardless of what Uatu and the rest call it, the Main Marvel Universe IS the prime reality, the one the others first began to generate from, and the one whose existence is vital to the multiverse. " 

Hmm...well, Merlyn called Earth-616 the prime Earth in Excalibur I#50 and a Watcher did the same in the issue Proctor died in. 

Aside from that, I should note that in one of his indexes, covering Avengers Annual#2, Olshevsky thought of Earth-616 as the "alternate Earth" since the Scarlet Centurion's actions in that issue allowed Captain America's modern era appearances. Also, the Nimrod entry seemed to indicate that we no longer follow the same Earth we used to: 

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/n/nimrodii.htm 

Sometime after Summers' arrived in the present, Jaime Rodriguez, a worker at a fish market in lower Manhattan discovered an ancient necklace within the body of a fish. Within its amulet was confined the spirit of the wizard Kulan Gath, who had lived before the beginning of recorded history. Rodriguez resisted Kulan Gath's attempts to take possession of his body, but then Rodriguez was stabbed by an unidentified mugger. The mugger took the necklace, and Kulan Gath was easily able to overwhelm the thief's malevolent psyche and take possession of his body, Kulan Gath then cast a spell that transformed Manhattan into a city resembling one of his own time, and that caused all of its people to think and act like people of that era. But Kulan Gath was eventually defeated throught the efforts of the X-Men, Spider-Man, and other super humans. The sorcerer supreme of Earth's dimension, Doctor Strange, whom Kulan Gath had held captive, united his magical prowess with the magical and mutant abilities of Illyana Rasputin, also known as Magik, to create through magical means a divergent event that would enable another reality to be created in which Kulan Gath had never cast his now seemingly irreversible spell over Manhattan and its denizens. Strange succeeded in triggering the creation of this other reality, to which he and a handful of others who had experienced Kulan Gath's reign of terror were transported. (Apparently Strange's spell had somehow prevented this new reality from having its own counterparts to himself and the handful of people who traveled to it from the Manhattan Kulan Gath had ruled.) Strange, however, was unaware of the nature of the divergent event he had magically caused to happen. 

The divergent event was that the highly advanced Sentinel known as Nimrod was transported to the moment just before Rodriguez was stabbed. Nimrod was designed to hunt mutants, and in order to hunt Rachel Summers down, Nimrod had attempted to duplicate the means by which she had traveled back in time. Nimrod found himself caught within an unusual energy flux which was the result of Strange's spell, and transported to the aforementioned moment within our reality. Programmed to protect human beings that he did not consider to be criminals, Nimrod blasted the mugger, thereby saving Rodriguez's life. The impact of the blast caused Rodriguez to drop the necklace, which was swallowed up in the muck and ooze along the subway tracks above which Rodriguez had been standing. Thus Kulan Gath did not get the opportunity to usurp the mugger's body and cast his spell over Manhattan.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2005 10:59 pm    
By Sijo

Rhod: No, from what we've seen in various stories, the numerations (probably invented by the Time Variance Authority, which keeps tabs of them as soon as they appear) refer to Alternate Realities, not Parallel Earths like the Squadron Supreme's. As for the Nexus, you might be right that it could be a common point, but in that case, it would exist in ALL the Florida swamps in the multiverse; if so, why do so many extradimensional beings covet Earth 616's? 

Enda: Considering the mess that Kang's existence has become, I wouldn't put much value on the Centurion's actions. 

As for the Kulan Gath/Nimrod story, I remember it, but once again, it brings the question: CAN you change the past in the Main Reality, or do you simply create an alternate reality? How do we know that Kulan Gath's reality wasn't the alternate, and the one where Nimrod arrived, the one that was supposed to happen in the first place? Storylines like Age of Apocalypse and now, House of M force us to consider this. 

Of course, from the realistic point of view that these are only comic book stories, we have to admit that the regular comics' reality is the only "true" one and none of these storylines were EVER meant to really change things. Though they ARE claiming that HoM WILL have lasting effects. We'll have to see.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2005 04:02 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Kulan Gath/Nimrod story is an unusual one. Reading the original story, it's quite plain that Claremont thought he was doing a story about the world being magically transformed, not a story about divergent timelines. 

The 1980s OFFICIAL HANDBOOK records this storyline under Nimrod's entry, in an extremely strained interpretation, presumably designed to reconcile it with Mark Gruenwald's understanding of the rules of Marvel Universe time travel. Of course, the Marvel Universe is now littered with stories where time travel plainly doesn't work according to the "traditional" rules, so while they may be generally true, they obviously aren't universally true. (And it's particularly doubtful that they should apply to the Kulan Gath storyline, which involves magic and therefore has a particularly free rein to ignore the rules of MU physics.) 

Interestingly, the 1990s X-MEN INDEX and AVENGERS INDEX both regard appearances in this storyline as "real", which implies that they don't accept the HANDBOOK's interpretation of the story. 

At this stage, I'm inclined to go with the Indexes and reject the Handbook's interpretation. There's really very little in the original story to support the Handbook's reading, and the only merit in that interpretation is that it reconciles the story with rules that, at the time, were considered to govern Marvel Universe time travel but, with retrospect, simply can't be right. It's an interpretation adopted on an assumption now known to be false, and on that basis we can sensibly ignore it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2005 06:34 am    
By Enda80

As for alternate Nexuses, we have seen alternate Earth Man-Things in What If, so evidently there exists more than one Nexus. 

Incidentally, the Watcher once referred to Earth-616 as "Earth-Prime" in the issue of What If dealing with the X-Tinction Agenda.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2005 11:58 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Speaking of the rules of time travel, (or the lack thereof) has there ever been another Marvel comic where things happened similar to the events shown in Young Avengers #4? In that issue, the present day starts to alter because the past is being supposedly rewritten, (because Iron Lad doesn't stay in the future to grow up to be Kang). I thought it might be that Kang was manipulating the Avengers, because surely the past cannot be altered, (Iron Lad HAS to be grow up to be Kang)... 

I read that issue, and I was like, "That's not how time travel works in the Marvel Universe...is it?"
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2005 01:53 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, there was a whole storyline recently in ALPHA FLIGHT premised on that idea.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2005 04:38 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
As for alternate Nexuses, we have seen alternate Earth Man-Things in What If, so evidently there exists more than one Nexus. 
<<<

Or, if there is only one Nexus, multiple Earths' contact points with the Nexus. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 14 Jul 2004 07:47 am    Post subject: Marvel UK Ant-Man/Hulk stories online
By Enda80

Marvel UK actually had some original Ant-Man stories in Hulk Comic. If anyone wants to chronologize these, they are available here; 

http://www.v3space.com/a/a52/15/scans/ 

Also, Night Raven: House of Cards is available. 

Also available: 

Specifically 
Captain Britain (first series) #1-23 (all the colour issues) 

Ant Man from Hulk Comic #48 and 49 - first professional art by Steve Dillon 

UK Hulk stories from Hulk Comic #1-6 by Steve Moore/Dave Gibbons (#1), Steve 
Parkhouse, Steve Dillon (#2), Steve Parkhouse/John Bolton (#3), 
Gosnell/Neary/Richardson (#4-6) 

Night Raven in "House of Cards" by Jamie Delano & David Lloyd 

"The Origin of the Crusader" by Alan Davis from Rampage #41

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jul 2004 08:29 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hey, cool! 

Actually, Hulk Comic #2 was Dillon's first pro work (at around age 17!), not #48-49. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jul 2004 10:16 am    
By Enda80

Come to think of it, in these Hulk Comic stories, Henry Pym has a catapult to launch him across the city, a network of ant informants..... 

Still, I kind of enjoyed the Ant-Man story. 

"You can't trust a man who hangs around with insects!" 

The cleverest bit of dialogue other than 

X-FORCE #23, page 20, panel 3. (gotta love page numbering). 

"BY MITRA -- worry not over that effeminate green-haired fool's 
matrix-absorbing abilities!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jul 2004 06:35 pm    
By Dhall

Kind of neat, and while I like the idea of more people being exposed to those stories, is that site approved by Marvel? Those stories aren't public domain, as far as I know. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jul 2004 08:06 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Marvel UK actually had some original Ant-Man stories in Hulk Comic. If anyone wants to chronologize these, they are available here 
<<<

Wow. I wasn't even aware of this. What were the publication dates of these issues? I wonder if they might have occurred during Pym's stint as Ant-Man that began in Avengers #93. 


Quote: 
>>>
is that site approved by Marvel? Those stories aren't public domain, as far as I know.  
<<<

Uh, yeah. We're talking copyright violation here, big time.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jul 2004 09:12 pm    
By Enda80

Hulk Comic also did original Hulk stories. Some of these were reprinted online, and others were reprinted in Marvel Super Action. 

Hulk Comic started in 1979. Avengers#93 was published around 1970. So, it would be a bit daunting to place these. 
http://www.hulklibrary.com/hulk/comics/comic-show.asp?id=hcuk 

Nick Fury also had some original Hulk Comic adventures that might be more feasible to place. 

Of course, the Black Knight co-starred with Captain Britain in Hulk Comic, and Dane Whitman's adventures with Captain Britain definetly form part of his continuity, as they have been referenced many times.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2005 08:07 am    
By Enda80

Chronology hints for Ant-Man 

Hulk Comic#20 places his adventures there as before the formation of the Avengers. 

That letters page also states that Nick Fury's adventures in Hulk Comic did not take place at the same time as the Dugan vs. Godzilla storyline.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2005 12:21 pm    
By rhod

The catapult and inform-ants  would certainly suggest placement around the early issues of Tales to Astonish (between 36 & 50, say)

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 23 Jun 2005 10:50 am    Post subject: Femizons membership questions
By RLG

Looking over CA 389/1 thru CA 391/1, I've been attempting to identify all of the members of this massive group of female villains. Between the letter page in CA 400, www.marvunapp.com, and my own knowledge, I have been able to identify: 

1) SUPERIA (LEADER) 
2) ANACONDA 
3) ARCLIGHT 
4) ASP 
5) BATTLEAXE 
6) BLACK BIRD 
7) BLACK LOTUS 
8) BLACK MAMBA 
9) BLOODLUST 
10)BOMBSHELL 
11)CHIMERA 
12)DANSEN MACABRE 
13)DRAGONFLY 
14)DIAMONDBACK 
15)FEROCIA 
16)FRENZY 
17)GLADIATRIX 
18)GOLDDIGGER 
19)GYPSY MOTH 
20)ICE PRINCESS 
21)IMPALA 
22)ION 
23)IRON MAIDEN 
24)KARISMA 
25)KNOCKOUT 
26)MINDBLAST 
27)MODAM 
28)MOONSTONE 
29)MYSTERIA 
30)NIGHTSHADE 
31)PINK PEARL 
32)POUNDCAKES 
33)PRINCESS PYTHON 
34)QUICKSAND 
35)SCREAMING MIMI 
36)SNAPDRAGON 
37)STEEL WIND 
38)TITANIA 
39)VAPOR 
40)VERTIGO 
41)WATER WITCH 
42)WRANGLER 
43)WHITEOUT 
44)YELLOW JACKET II 

There are still about 12-13 other characters I'm trying to identify. I appologize in advance for not being able to send the images of the pages that I'm about to refer to. 

In CA 389/1 (14-15), we seen the first gathering of the Femizons. These are the characters I cannot identify: 

1) Purple costume, purple vizor, and short-cropped white hair. Seen behind Gladiatrix's left shoulder. Also seen CA 390/1 (2), with a pink costume and super speed. In that panel, she is partically blokced by Ion. 

2) Coral-colored female, almost resembling Quicksand. However, Quicksand is easily identified elsewhere on the page. Appears behind Golddigger and Yellowjacket. 

3) Blonde with red costume and face mask that covers the majority of her head. Costume resembles Gypsy Moth's, but she is also elsewhere on the page. The woman in question is behind Yellowjacket's right shoulder. 

4) Blonde with low cut red shirt. Possibly wearing green pants. Located behind Poundcake's raised, right arm. 

5) Orange armored mask. Not much to go on, but she is sitting to #4's right and Vapor's left. 

6) Purple bikini-style costume with long sleeves and purple hair. Hair and costume appear to be comprised of some form of plant-life. Also seen in CA 390/1 (3), on the ship's upper deck behind Mysteria. On that page, her hair and costume are green. 

7) Blonde with mullet haircut and a neck choker. Sitting directly behind Knockout. 

8) Smallish woman (could be a child?) with a plain purple shirt with strawberry-blonde hair. Sitting behind Wrangler. 

9) Short-cropped white haired woman with an olive drab costume with red shoulder armor. Wears a yellow vizor and is behind Pink Pearl and Water Witch. Seen in CA 390/1 (2-3) now with a yellow costume and white shoulder armor. Partically blocked by Titania. Also seen in CA 391/1 (4), just to the right of Superia's left knee. 

10) Brunette with shoudler-lenght hair and an olive-drab one-piece costume. Sitting in front of Water Witch with Pink Pearl behind her left shoudler. 


In CA 390/1 (2-3), the same group of women charge after Cap and Paladin. Most of the "unknowns" on those two pages have already been covered, however.... 

11) Woman with a red, Elektra-style costume on the upper deck beside #6 and Mysteria. On the "Femizons" entry in www.marvunapp.com, there is a comment about the woman's identity. I think the conclusion there is that it is Elektra, but I'm not to sure if that fits in with her chronology. 


In CA 391/1 (4), there is a gathering of the members and another "unknown" pops up. 

12) An outline of a woman's body, with the essense of her (interior?) comprised of tiny stars. Standing near Arclight and Wrangler at the bottom of the page, can't miss her!! 

13) A woman in a blue dress, with a light blue cape and cowl is seen in CA 391/1 (7p3). This could just be a one of the random woman that Superia has gathered on her island rather than a super-villain. 


One quick note, according to www.marvunapp.com, the Dragoness is a member of the group. I could not identify her, but she could be one of the characters listed above. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated! 

RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2005 04:32 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

RLG wrote: 
>>>
Looking over CA 389/1 thru CA 391/1, I've been attempting to identify all of the members of this massive group of female villains. Between the letter page in CA 400, www.marvunapp.com, and my own knowledge, I have been able to identify: 
<<<

Please specify which ones came from CA 400, which from the Appendix, and which from your own knowledge. We don't use the Appendix, or any website, as a source. 

As for Elektra, this has been discussed previously, and the last time I checked, they were claiming it was Elektra based solely on the presence of a sai, and that's not strong enough for us. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 23 Jun 2005 05:46 pm    
By RLG

In the letter page of CA 400, Lysle Kapp lists: 
1) GLADIATRIX 
2) YELLOWJACKET II 
3) GYPSY MOTH 
4) DANSEN MACABRE 
5) POUNDCAKES 
6) FRENZY 
7) QUICKSAND 
8) KNOCKOUT 
9) BLOODLUST 
10)WHIPLASH *** forgot to put her in my original list!! 
11)MINDBLAST 
12)PINK PEARL 
13) DRAGONFLY 
14) VAPOR 
15) WHITEOUT 
16) SCREAMING MIMI 

The reply from Marvel lists: 
17) FEROCIA 
18) PRINCESS PYTHON 
19) NIGHTSHADE 
20) SUPERIA 
21) BOMBSHELL 
22) WRANGLER 
23) SNAPDRAGON 
24) BLACK LOTUS 
25) IRON MAIDEN 
26) ION 
27) ARCLIGHT 
28) VERTIGO 
29) STEEL WIND 
30) WATER WITCH 
31) TITANIA 
32) GOLDDIGGER 
33) BATTLEAXE 
34) IMPALA 
35) MYSTERIA 
36) ICE PRINCESS 
37) CHIMERA 

Diamondback, Asp, Black Mamba, MODAM, Blackbird, Moonstone, Anaconda & Karisma were already known to me. 

After checking off each of the above characters, I obviously had a few I could not identify. My visit to the web site in question confirmed the list from CA 400 and the characters from my own knowledge. Beside the Elektra comment, the only other character the web site listed was DRAGONESS, who like I stated earlier, I could not confirm as being among the Femizons. 

My reasons for naming the site was (1) to acknowlege it as a source and (2) to inform any readers of my posting know that I'd had already checked that site. In no way was I attempting to promote the web site, which I have no connection to. That being said, there IS a good picture of CA 389/1 (2-3) under the Femizons entry at that site. I say this only because of my inability to submit any pictures myself, which I realize hampers any chances of identifying the 13 unknown characters. 

- RLG

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Posted: 23 Jun 2005 06:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You're absolutely right to give proper credit to the Appendix, and I have no problem with promoting a site, or providing a link, as long as it's appropriate to a chronological discussion, as yours was. Heck, half of Enda80's posts reference the Appendix, and that's okay. 

But it's important for us to know exactly what information comes from other sites, because, while information from other sites encourages discussion, that information should *not* work its way into the listings here. 


watching: paula zahn

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Thread 38

Posted: 26 Jun 2005 05:14 pm    Post subject: Moondragon issues
By metaldragons

I noticed you didn't have any of her appearances in Warlock and the Infinity Watch and other titles listed after the Infinity War crossover and before the Silver Surfer/Rune book (except for the FF@ 25 and SS3 93). I have a number of those issues but sadly, not all. From what I do have it goes: 

W&IW 11 (there are a lot of flashbacks in this issue) 
W&IW 12 
W&IW 13 
FF@ 25/4 
Silver Surfer:Homecoming (grapic novel) 
W&IW 14 
W&IW 15 
Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection 1 
SS/W:R 2 
SS/W:R 3 
SS/W:R 4 
W&IW 16 
W&IW 17 
IC 1 
WCHRON 1 
W&IW 18 
IC 2~WoSM 104 
T 464 
W&IW 19 
WoSM 105 
IC 3 
T 465 
W&IW 20 
IC 4 
W&IW 21 
IC 5 
IC 6 
W&IW 23 
SS3 87 
WCHRON 7 
W&IW 24 
T 470 
SS3 88 
WCHRON 8 
W&IW 25 
T 471 
W&IW 26 
W&IW 27 
W&IW 28 
SS3 93 
SS3 94 
W&IW 30 
W&IW 31 
W&IW 32 
W&IW 33 

I'm not 100% sure of the Infinity Crusade crossover titles placement. That was as close as I could figure them with the issues I have.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 27 Feb 2006 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 26 Jun 2005 06:34 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Welcome to the Project, metaldragon, but read the Key. 


watching: dateline

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Posted: 26 Jun 2005 07:35 pm    
By metaldragon

OOPS! Sorry about that! Bad me!  Should have read that thoroughly. Love the site and wanted to help. lol! I'll be patient, I swear!
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 39

Posted: 27 Jun 2005 01:04 am    Post subject: Daredevil: Redemption
By Nathan P. Mahney

OK, I was reading Daredevil: Redemption #5, and the caption on the first page read "Seven Years Ago"! Up to this point I'd been assuming that this took place either shortly before or shortly after the Bendis run, but no, it seems that it took place quite some time ago. There's little in the way of placement clues that I can see - the thing's not set in New York and doesn't feature DD's supporting cast. He has an intern named Constance MacDermid, but I assume that she's a new character. You guys might have to eyeball this one...
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 04:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's set in the past because it's a reference to an actual trial, I believe.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 40

Posted: 27 Jun 2005 01:08 am    Post subject: Hyperions in Exiles #64-65
By Nathan P. Mahney

I was wondering about the two good versions of Hyperion that appeared towards the end of the Timebreakers storyline in Exiles recently. Are they established versions of the characters? One seems to be pretty much the classic Squadron Supreme version, and the other guy is wearing green glasses.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 04:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

They would appear to be the original and duplicate Hyperions from the SQUADRON SUPREME miniseries, although I'm pretty sure the duplicate died - so he might just be another version from yet another timeline. The Exiles are scheduled to visit the Squadron's homeworld in a few issues time, so this might be cleared up, depending on whether the local Hyperion recognises them.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 06:48 pm    
By shandrakor

The glasses guy also had wierd eyes and no beam vision. Is that compatible with the duplicate from the original series?

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 07:30 pm    
By Sijo

The Hyperion from Squadron Supreme was indeed temporarily blinded, though he got better. And the duplicate (created by the Grandmaster) was also "killed" by the real Hyperion (turns out the duplicate was made of unliving matter.) 

I fear they may end up redefining the Squadron's Earth as an Alternate Reality rather than a Parallel Earth. To be one, it would've had to split off from the main reality thousands of years ago, maybe more. (The Inhumans of this world never mutated, and the Skrulls don't seem that bad.)

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Thread 41

Posted: 29 Jun 2005 05:28 am    Post subject: Iron Fist characters
By jannepie

I went through my notes and the following were missing from the MCP. 

Colleen Wing: Marvel Premiere #24-25 
Ward Meachum: Iron Fist vol. 1 # 1 (bts), 4, 8, 10, 13 
Boomerang: Iron Fist vol. 1 # 11 

Also Radion /Henri Sorel/Ravager misses some appearances. I don't have own those issues but here you can see the issues where he might appear. (I know you can't trust a web site as a resource)http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/radionsorel.htm

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 07:26 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jannepie wrote: 
>>>
Ward Meachum: Iron Fist vol. 1 # 1 (bts), 4, 8, 10, 13 
<<<


What's the nature of the behind-the-scenes appearance in #1? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 09:44 am    
By jannepie

Davos is speaking with him on the phone. Ward's voice isn't heard/seen but Davos is having a conversation with him, asking and answering.

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Thread 42

Posted: 22 Jun 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: 1602
By davecohen

How does 1602 fits into continuity? It looks like the "future" the heroes were pulled from is not from the mainstream timeline.
_________________
davecohen

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 04:30 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

It doesn't fit into continuity. It's just another alternate branching off of the timeline, (in this case, it's a wierd alternate future having an event which created a wierd alternate past). 

I'm interested in how the upcoming Marvel Handbook on "Alternate Dimensions" is going to label this dimension...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 43

Posted: 30 May 2005 09:33 pm    Post subject: What If vol.2 #6, 24, 43 and 59
By jephyork
Director

That's right, I'm picking random issue numbers out of a hat and analyzing them. 

Enjoy! 

-Jeph! 

---- 

What If v2 #6 
"What If the X-Men Lost Inferno" 

The Watcher appears (presumably between WI2 #5-7). 

At first glance, it appears that this issue diverges sometime during NM #73, but retcons make this impossible. The issue ends with Alicia Masters giving birth to Johnny Storms son  but at that time in the MU, Alicia was being impersonated by Lyja the Skrull. Since Skrulls give birth to eggs, not human-looking children, this must be the real Alicia in the divergent reality  which means that this reality actually branched off at Alicias kidnapping and replacement, back during the Secret Wars. 

This notion is actually supported by the Watchers dialogue. He says "In both your reality and the divergent one, things began in the same manner", and goes on to recap Inferno  implying that this reality had already branched off prior to Inferno, but events followed a similar course for some time after the divergence. 

(As a tangent, Id always been under the impression that Illyanas Limbo was a sub-section of Immortus Limbo. It always seemed to have a "multiversal-singularity" feel to it, what with UX #160 showing two sets of X-Men from two similar dimensions entering the same Limbo. However, in this WI2 issue, it looks like Illyanas Limbo branches off right along with the divergent timeline  and if alternate Limbos can be created, then it isnt a multiversal singularity, and cant be part of Immortus Limbo. They must simply be two different types of timeless dimensions, both named "Limbo".) 

However, the Living Tribunal  who IS a multiversal singularity  appears at the end of the issue. His appearance here, along with the Watchers, should be listed on the MCP  and assuming that time moves at the same rate in this dimension and the Marvel Universe, he likely appears here shortly before his appearance in SS3 #31. 

Earth-616 scenes: 

p.6 panel 2  NM #71 pp.21-22 (double-page spread) panel 1. Nastirhs presence in this panel must be an art error  he *is* behind the scenes in this scene keeping the portal open, but he doesnt show up on-panel until p.23 panel 2. 

p.6 panel 3  NM #71 pp.21-22 panel 2 
p.6 panel 4  EXCAL #6 p.13 panel 6 
p.6 panel 5  EXCAL #6 p.19 panel 6 
p.6 panel 6  DRSTR3 #2 p. 22 panel 4 (or possibly p.23 panel 3 or p.24 panel 1) 

p.6 panel 7  Spider-Man kicks two demons in the face and punches a third. I dont have any of Spideys Inferno issues, but the rest of the panels were taken pretty much verbatim from other comics, so I doubt this panel contains any new material. 

p.7 panel 1  NM #73 p.32 panel 2 
p.7 panel 2  NM #73 p.33 panel 1 
p.7 panel 3  XF #38 p.38 panel 1 

---- 

What If v2 #24 
"What If Wolverine Was Lord of the Vampires?" 

The Watcher appears (presumably between WI2 #23-25). This issue might occur near the end of a long unbroken string of WI2 appearances  the Watcher sounds frustrated by the WI routine. ("Must I really introduce myself yet again? Very well, then. If I must, I must.") 

This issue diverges at UX #159, between pp.3-4, when Dracula drinks enough of Storms blood to actually kill her. 

Earth-616 scenes: 

p.1 panel 2  UX #159 p.16 panel 1 
p.1 panel 3  UX #159 p.16 panel 4 
p.1 panel 4  UX #159 p.16 panel 7 
p.2 panel 1  UX #159 p.19 panels 5-6 
p.2 panel 2  UX #159 p.20 panel 1 
p.2 panel 4  DRSTR2 #62  Dr. Strange, surrounded by energy, reads the Montesi Formula aloud from a floating book. I dont have the issue, but the other scenes stayed true to the source material, so Im assuming this isnt new material. 

Earth-616 temporal references: Wolverines vampires attack humanity en masse on "August 5th", but theres no indication of how much time passes between the UX #159 divergence and that point. Before that, the first mutants Wolverine and his X-Vampires attack are the New Mutants  which looks like a glitch since the New Mutants werent formed at that point  but since in the MU, the NMs were formed by Prof. X in the wake of the X-Mens apparent death in space, in this world he might have formed them earlier in the wake of the X-Mens apparent death at Draculas hands. 

Also, Quasar #30 establishes that Quasar passes through this world during his search for the variant Living Lasers (specifically, on p.18 between panels 1-2). He also visits several other worlds showcased in WI2 issues  including WI2 #1, which Id mentioned before in my write-up for that issue. Should he be given a BTS for the WI2 issues he's established here as appearing in, or would his Q #30 entry cover it? 

The worlds visited were: 

pp.11p6-14p3  WI #32 (probably) 
pp.14p4-15p4  WI2 #1 
p.15p5  WI2 #14 
p.16p1  WI2 #24 
p.16p2-4  WI #27 (probably) 
p.16p5  WI2 #4 
p.17  WI2 #25 

---- 

What If v2 #43 
"What If Wolverine Had Married Mariko?" 

The Watcher appears (presumably between WI2 #42-44). 

This reality diverges at UX #173 p.17, when Mastermind does not use his mental powers to make Mariko turn Wolverine away at the altar. 

Immediately after Logans wedding, he begins a quest to cut Clan Yashidas Yakuza ties  and the Yakuza chief is eventually revealed to be the Kingpin. So theres a chance that this reality diverged earlier than it looks like, with the Kingpins Yakuza takeover. But theres really no sense of how much time has passed between Logans wedding and the Kingpin revelation  so its possible that the Kingpin didnt begin his takeover until after the wedding, and the divergence point stands. 

Earth-616 scenes: 

p.2 panel 2  UX #173 p.22 panel 1 
p.2 panel 3  UX #173 p.22 panel 3 
p.2 panel 4  UX #173 p.22 panel 4 

Also, p.1 is a splash of Wolverine fighting Hand ninjas. Im unsure if this is meant to be a scene from the Marvel Universe or the divergent one  the Watchers dialogue is vague: 

"In the reality you know, the scene is familiar  Wolverine, clashing with assassins known as the Hand. But I am privy to other events, other realms than the familiar." 

I *think* this indicates that were seeing a scene from the divergent universe ("this sort of thing may be familiar in YOUR universe, BUT")  but if its meant to occur in the Marvel Universe, Im prepared to say that its sufficiently generic that weve no doubt seen it before. Either way I dont think it constitutes new material. 

Earth-616 temporal references: green trees and cloudy or overcast blue skies in Japan on the day after UX #173. 

---- 

What If v2 #59 
"What If Wolverine Led Alpha Flight" 

The Watcher appears (presumably between WI2 #58-60). 

This reality diverges at UX #121 p.16, between panels 6-7, when Wolverine elects not to escape from Alpha Flights custody. Uatu is very explicit about the time of the divergence: "[Wolverine agrees to] surrender to Alpha Flight if his fellow X-Men are allowed safe passage from the country. *Here the realities diverge.* In yours, Wolverine escapes, rejoining his fellow X-Men." 

This poses an interesting situation, because in this issue, Guardian reveals his motivation for coming after Wolverine in UX #120-121: "a few days" before the issue, members of Beta and Gamma Flight were kidnapped by Annihilus and are being held in the Negative Zone. Since Guardian needs to maintain the Negative Zone portals integrity, and cant leave the lab for more than a few hours at a time, he needs Wolverine back  to lead a strike team and retrieve the Flight members. 

Assuming that the divergence point is where Uatu says it is, that means that an identical situation had occurred just prior to UX #120 in the mainstream MU, and "our" Guardian had an identical motivation for retrieving Logan! 

However, in UX #120, we're given Guardian's motivation: the Prime Minister ordered him to retrieve Logan. There's a conflict here, and there are two ways to resolve it: 

1: Uatu was wrong about the point of divergence  which I tend to doubt  or we need to re-interpret his phrasing to mean that the realities had already diverged, but were following extremely similar paths until that point. 

2: Find a way to merge the two motivations: perhaps Guardian reported the Negative Zone situation to the Prime Minister, who had been looking for an excuse to retrieve Logan and decided that this was it. 

Rather than doubting Uatu, I'd go with option #2. Which means that Annihilus and the Flight members trapped in the Negative Zone (Box, Flashback, Marrina and Puck) should get BTS appearances for UX #120. (And since Logan didnt return with Alpha Flight in the MU, we must presume that "our" Guardian managed to rescue them via 
different means.) 

Later in the issue, by the way, theres a montage of villains that Alpha Flight fought after the divergence  and one of them is Mojo. Yes, Im going to open this can of worms again. Mojo has claimed that he and the Mojoverse are multiversal singularities  but weve seen evidence of alternate Spirals and alternate Longshots, and yet we havent seen the Mojoverse overrun with those alternates  so it seems that Mojos claims are a combination of ego and insanity. However, he does get around. In addition to the main MU, in EXILES #18-19 it was confirmed or heavily implied that "our" Mojo has encountered 5/6ths of the dimensions that the Exiles are from  which, taken on average, means that theres a 6 in 7 chance that hes been to any given dimension. 

So, on the one hand, Id argue that its *likely* that this is our Mojo appearing here. The general odds seem to be in favor of it. On the other hand, this Mojo is colored pink with a green chair, as opposed to yellow with a grey chair  so, if thats not a coloring error, perhaps it was intended to be an alternate Mojo after all. 

Discuss. If this *is* "our" Mojo, this would be his chronologically earliest appearance, occuring in the "months" that follow UX #121. 

Earth-616 scenes: 

p.1  generic shot of Wolverine and the modern-day X-Men, circa X #1-25. 

pp.2-3 (double-page spread) panel 1  a montage of scenes (all re-posed and some reversed) from the fight in UX #121: 

p.7 panel 2 (Guardian) 
p.8 panel 4 (Cylops/Northstar) 
p.8 panel 7 (Nightcrawler/Aurora) 
p.9 panel 3 (Storm/Snowbird) 
p.9 panel 4 (Wolverine/Shaman's totems) 
p.10 panel 5 (Colossus/Sasquatch) 

pp.2-3 panel 3 (assuming "panel 2" to be the Watcher)  UX #121 p.14 panel 3 
pp.2-3 panel 4  UX #121 p.15 panel 3 (reversed and re-posed) 
pp.2-3 panel 5  UX #121 p.16 panel 5 (slightly re-posed) 

Earth-616 temporal references: UX #121 ends at "17:40", or 5:40 pm, in whatever time zone Alpha Flight HQ is in. 

---- 

So: possible MCP additions for these four issues include: 

ANNIHILUS 
 
FF 183 
*UX 120-BTS 
M/TIO 75 
 

BOX 
*UX 120-BTS 
{AF 11} 
 

FLASHBACK 
*UX 120-BTS 
{AF 12} 
 

LIVING TRIBUNAL 
 
MEPHV. 4 
*WI2 6 
SS3 31 
 

MARRINA 
AF 2-FB 
*UX 120-BTS 
{AF 1} 
 

MOJO 
*WI2 59 
{LSHOT 1-BTS} 
 

PUCK 
 
AF2 16-FB 
* UX 120-BTS 
AF2 14-FB 
{AF 1} 
 
(Im not quite sure what the AF2 #14-FB refers to, as there arent any Puck FBs in that issue that look new to me  but Im guessing that its something close to AF #1, so Im guessing that UX #120 would have occurred before it.) 

QUASAR III 
 
Q 29 
Q 30 (1-11p5) 
*Q 30 (11p6-14p3) ~ WI 32 
*Q 30 (14p4-15p4) ~ WI2 1 
*Q 30 (15p5) ~ WI2 14 
*Q 30 (16p1) ~ WI2 24 
*Q 30 (16p2-4) ~ WI 27 
*Q 30 (16p5) ~ WI2 4 
*Q 30 (17) ~ WI2 25 
Q 30 (18-22) 
Q 31 
 

UATU 
 
*WI2 6 
 
*WI2 24 
 
*WI2 43 
 
*WI2 59 
 
(I cant offer any concrete placement suggestions here, but WI2 #9 is concurrent with Q #30, so WI2 #6 likely occurs slightly before that issue  and WI2 #24 sounds like it occurs after a long string of uninterrupted WI2 appearances.)

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Posted: 31 May 2005 05:37 am    
By Enda80

Sidebar; I agree with the logic you used for this thread, but in practice I have found it ignored. I compiled a long list of characters that Frank Castle had met during the war, which was later incorporated into his Marvel Knights Encyclopedia entry (somebody must have seen it online). 

I noticed that everyone was on the list except for one person:John Carmody from What If II#10. In my original list, I posited that since What If Worlds resemble Earth-616 exactly before the point of divergence, and Carmody's wartime encounters with Castle fall in a timeframe before the point of divergence, the E-616 Castle must have met an E-616 Carmody. 
However, it seems that whoever edited the Handbook disagreed.

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Posted: 31 May 2005 04:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Just because their list nearly matches yours doesn't mean they used your list as a source. They could very well have done their own research (shock!). 

If that's the case, then the omission of your fellow from WI2 #10 could be an *oversight* rather than a deliberate decision -- in which case, it *doesn't* imply that Marvel considers pre-divergence WI material non-canon. 

Which is good, because I do.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 03:32 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It depends on the story in question. But in principle, the logic of WHAT IF? is supposed to be that these are timelines which diverge at the moment in question. That logically implies that, before that point, they don't merely mirror the Marvel Universe, they ARE the Marvel Universe. 

But if the timeline is merely presented as being similar to the MU (particularly if it turns out to contradict later stories), then the flashbacks would have to be treated as non-canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Jun 2005 06:35 am    
By jephyork
Director

And that's exactly why I'm giving each issue such scrutiny. Some DO diverge at explicit moments (like #59), some don't specify at all, and some can't work the way they're intended to work thanks to later MU retcons (#6). 

I'm dredging down near the bottom of the canon-material barrel, but it's fun.  

-Jeph!

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Thread 44

Posted: 29 May 2005 02:27 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk #77-81!
By Kevin W.
Director

This is going to be a fast and simple review, for a storyline which we learn is mostly one big dream sequence... 

Hulk #77: 
Written by Peter David 
Drawn by Lee Weeks 

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Unleashed Hulk, New Characters: Ripley, Gwen, (aka Daydream), Nightmare-BTS 

As the storyline starts, Hulk is making his way underwater towards what is referred to as "Monster Island". He is being compelled to go there, though he doesn't know why. As he travels underwater, he destroys sharks and giant squids that attack him. Meanwhile, inside his head, we see the Hulk thinking back to a period in Banner's teenage years. 

In these flashback scenes, we see Banner as a nerdy teenager, getting picked on in class by bullies. Banner is also, strangely enough, talking to the Hulk in class. Banner is the only one who can see Hulk, and the two have conversations, while other students stare at Banner, and think he's a freak. Obviously, Banner is already suffering from Multiple Personality syndrome in his teenage years, if these flashbacks are to be believed. But more on that shortly. 

Meanwhile, in the modern day, Hulk washes up on an island, and transforms back into Banner. Just then, a monster (typical of the old 1950's Marvel comics) emerges and is about to eat the nearly unconsious Banner, when two figures emerge, named Gwen and Ripley. They use a flamethrower to drive the monster off. They're about to drag Banner off, when all of a sudden the Hulk appears! But it's not Banner transforming into the Hulk, and strangely enough, it's the Grey Hulk... 

Topical References: When Hulk washes up on the island, it's raining outside. Perhaps it's hurricane season? More likely is the fact that since we later learn this is Nightmare's domain, the laws of nature don't apply here. 

Moving on, it appears that the Hulk personality on display here is version of the Hulk from the last time that Peter David wrote the Hulk title: It's what we've come to call "Unleashed Hulk". It's the Hulk from the late 90's after Onslaught. 

Besides that, it appears that it's the "Unleashed Hulk" talking to Banner in the flashback sequences. That makes these flashbacks highly suspect to me, since it's always been my understanding that Banner's multiply personalities didn't manifest until he became the Hulk for the first time. Beyond that, all of these flashbacks are suspect because Nightmare in the end says he's been messing with the Hulk's memories. So I'm writing these flashbacks off until they are proven canon. 


Hulk #78: 
Written by Peter David 
Drawn by Lee Weeks 

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Unleashed Hulk, New Characters: Ripley, Gwen, (aka Daydream), Nightmare 

Synopsis: Banner, upon realizing that he and the two others are being attacked by the original Gray Hulk, transforms into the Hulk and the two Hulk's fight. Ripley and Gwen run away. 

They spend the entire issue fighting until Unleashed Hulk eventually kills Gray Hulk, (by accident). As they stand over the dead Hulk, the body transforms into a dead body of a Mindless One, (the creatures from Dormammu's dimension). Hulk's puzzled by this... 

Ripley and Gwen manage to take shelter deeper in the woods on the island. They can't figure out how things got like this. Ripley concludes they must be in Hell. He says, "We didn't survive the boat sinking. The explosion in the engine room...it didn't blind me...it killed me...and then you must've drowned." Yes, before I forget, Ripley's blind. Just then, the two of them are approached by Gen. Ross, who is strangely enough on the island... 

Meanwhile, in flashback, teenage Banner tells a bully (who's starting to get rough with a former girlfriend of his) to leave the girl alone. Hulk tells Banner to stay out of it. The Bully turns around and beats up Banner, so badly that Banner ends up in the hospital with broken ribs. 

Banner's guardian, (his Aunt, Sue Drake) comes to the hospital to check on Banner, and then she goes and chews out the Principal of the school for letting Bruce get beaten up. The Principal in turn reports that Banner is emotionally disturbed, and has been seen talking to himself, and referring to someone called "Hulk". Sue just explains it was Bruce's childhood imaginary friend. The Principal says he's getting a little old for imaginary friends... 

I thought that the name "Hulk" was assigned way back in Hulk #1? Rick Jones and the Army named him that, and it stuck...yet here in the flashbacks to Banner's teenage years, Banner has named him Hulk, and carries on conversations with him like a psychotic freak...this also leads me to believe that these flashbacks aren't canon. 

References: We see Nightmare sitting in a chair with his back to us in this issue, making this an actual appearance, (and not a BTS appearance). 

Hulk #79: 
Written by Peter David 
Drawn by Lee Weeks 

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Unleashed Hulk, New Characters: Ripley, Gwen, (aka Daydream), Nightmare-BTS 

Synopsis: Hulk is standing over the body of the Mindless One, when he is attacked by Fin Fang Foom. It's not really Fin Fang Foom, just another illusion/Mindless One. They do battle for the entire issue, till Hulk eventually tosses Foom into a volcano. 

Meanwhile, Ripley and Gwen go with "Gen. Ross" to a secret military compound where they will supposedly be safe from the monsters on the island. Gen. Ross says this is all a big military experiment, but the experiment is out of control. As they are about to enter the compound Gen. Ross is attacked another monster and dragged away. Prof. Yarish, (the person who Gen. Ross says is running the island) yells at Ripley and Gwen to get inside the perimeter, and Ripley does, but Gwen runs off after Gen. Ross, to save him, (she notes that she feels like she knows Gen. Ross from somewhere)... 

Meanwhile, in flashback, teenage Bruce, (fresh out of the hospital) goes and tries to talk to Carla, (the girl he tried to save from the bully last issue). She yells at him and tell him that now everyone is teasing her, saying Bruce is her boyfriend, and says she thinks he's a freak just like everyone else here. 

Hulk comforts Bruce, saying "We'll smash them all..." 

References: The rain stops this issue...in other words, no real topical references here. 

Hulk #80: 
Written by Peter David 
Drawn by Lee Weeks 

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Unleashed Hulk, New Characters: Ripley, Gwen, (aka Daydream), Nightmare-BTS 

Synopsis: Hulk reverts back to being Banner and pauses, to try and sort this out. But then he's attacked by Wolverine! But not modern day Wolverine, it's Logan straight from their first fight encounter back in 1974! Banner turns back into Hulk to defend himself, and they dual for the issue. Near the end, Kang the Conquerer appears and explains he's plucking people from the timeline to kill the Hulk, but Hulk reverts back to Banner and says he's not falling for this anymore. He demands the truth. He says he figured out this is one big game when Wolverine didn't kill him right before he turned back into the Hulk. So Wolverine stabs him now, seemingly to kill Banner... 

Banner wakes up, and finds himself in a mental asylum, wrapped up in a straight jacket. Leonard Samson is standing over him. He tells Bruce that it's all been one big dream. Everything since Bruce left the Pantheon (back in Hulk #425) has been a demented dream. Betty never died, Samson says... 

Meanwhile, Ripley is with Dr. Yarish, who tries to explain to Ripley that this is a military experiment, but Ripley's starting to not buy it. Dr. Yarish gives Ripley some tea, which drugs him and puts him to sleep...we see in a reflection that Dr. Yarish is just another Mindless One... 

Meanwhile, Gwen is running through the jungle, when she stumbles across Gen. Ross. She says she was trying to save him, thinking he was still being dragged off by a monster, but he says he's fine, and that he's disappointed with her. She asks what he means, but he grabs her and drowns her in a nearby pond of water. He says she's not supposed to feel sympathy for humans, and try and rescue them, and that she better get her head in the game fast...He leaves after having drowned her. 

Except she wakes up a few minutes later, jerking her head out of the water. She suddenly notices her hair has changed from black to red...she's starting to remember who she really is... 

Meanwhile, in flashback land, Banner is hurt that he was rejected by Carla. Hulk tries to tell Banner he can make them pay, but Banner rejects that line of thought. Cut to a few days later. Banner says he's been very tired lately, and it feels like he hasn't gotten much sleep. He asks his aunt to call the school and tell them he's sick today. She says she will, but asks Bruce if he went out last night. He says no, but she says his shoes are all muddy, but leaves it at that... 

Bruce immediately concludes something's wrong upon hearing his shoes are muddy, and demands an answer of Hulk. Hulk explains he knows all aobut the bombs that Bruce is building in the shack behind the house, and took one of them to school and planted it in the boiler room. Bruce immediately throws on his shoes and runs to the school... 

References: None, really... 

But about this flashback...okay, so now teenage Bruce is a psychotic kid building bombs in the backyard shack? Not canon, I tell you!!!! To quote Luke Skywalker: "That's not true!!! That's impossible!!!" 

Hulk #81: 
Written by Peter David 
Drawn by Lee Weeks 

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Unleashed Hulk, New Characters: Ripley, Gwen, (aka Daydream), Nightmare, Betty Ross 

Synopsis: Okay, let's wrap this up. Banner realizes that Samson and the Asylum are another illusion scenario. He turns into the Hulk and starts to strangle Dr. Samson. Hulk demands the truth, and finally gets it after Gwen reappears. She makes the illusions disappear, and it stands revealed: Nightmare is the true master of this island. 

Hulk asks who Gwen is. Gwen states, "I'm his daughter. He lay with a woman who was deep, deep asleep...and made me. And then he tossed me out into the world so I could become familiar with mortals...and learn to despise them as much as he. Except it didn't work." 

Hulk says, "And what's your name? Daydream?" She replies, "No it's...actually, you know...I like that. Daydream." So I suspect when we next see her she'll be going by that name. 

Nightmare explains his plot to the Hulk as follows: Basically, this island they're on is in the real world, but it's also in the realm of Nightmares. It was created "one fine September morning, when the line between reality and fantasy irrevocably blurred." We are led to believe he is referencing Sept. 11th, but I suppose if there is some other massive disaster in Sept. on the calender in the Marvel Universe, it could just as easily refer to that. Except for one other line though...Nightmare says, "They speak of not letting the terrorists win. Well, I'm the ORIGINAL terrorist...and I've already won, so there's no help for it now." 

So anyway, this island was created because of a massive trauma that inflicted the world. He says that since that day, he's been trying to weaken the line between what is real and what isn't...and he tells Hulk that he's a "Prime Test Case"... 

He says the following: "Before you came here. All you know is governed by your memories, Hulk, and some of them are real...and some of them, well...are such stuff as dreams are made of." 

And above Nightmare, we see images in the sky of Devil Hulk, the Abomination, and the Absorbing Man... 

He explains that the monsters on this island are really just Mindless Ones, "borrowed from a neighboring dimension"... 

Hulk says he's bored and starts to leave the island, but Nightmare taunts him, saying "What if I told you...that the comatose woman who was the vessel for 'Daydream'...the mortal woman I filled with my essence...was your own beloved Betty?" 

Hulk kindly jumps back over and rips Nightmare's head off, killing Nightmare...except Daydream herself said you can't really kill him, he'll just come back in another form...Hulk gets on top of Nightmare's horse and rides the horse off the island and riding off into the morning sun. Yes, the horse runs across the water: it's a dream horse after all... 

Daydream takes Ripley, (who's waking up) and tells him that she's going to take him to a special place where they can live happily ever after, and they fade away... 

The issue ends with Betty Ross, strangely enough, washing up onto the island. She's wondering how she got here, but "Gen. Ross" greets her on the shore, hugging her, telling her it's all going to be allright, that it was all a bad dream... 

Just how Betty got there, we don't know...but now she's going to be put through the same illusion game that the Hulk was put through... 

Ah, but let's not forget the flashback sequences in this issue! In the flashback, we see Teenage Bruce running off to school, dashing through the halls. Teachers and students wonder where he's going, and they see him run down into the Boiler Room, where they see him quickly turn off a bomb. The bullies accuse him of trying to blow them all up, but young Bruce tries to tell them it was the Hulk. The Principal closes the Boiler Room door, allowing the bullies to beat up Bruce, while he tells the teachers to close the school for the day and to call the police. 

Cut to later...Aunt Sue is packing up stuff in their household, when she is payed a visit by Gen. Ross. She says Bruce is in the hospital again, but after he gets out, the police promised not to press charges if they left town. Gen. Ross says the police went lenient at his request. He says the army got called in to look at Bruce's bombs, and he says they're pretty advanced stuff for a teenage boy. He offers to take Bruce and help mold him, and he says, "Maybe help exorcise a few monsters"... 

Okay, so this is a total revision...Banner didn't go to college and from there decide to do contract work for the military...no, here, he was "discovered" by Gen. Ross, and guided into the life of making bombs, (eventually leading to the creation of the Gamma Bomg). NOT CANON!!! 

References: 

It doesn't say how Betty got to the island...here last appearance was in Hulk #76. As for when exactly Nightmare "had his way with her" (at least in a dream) we're not told when that happened as well... 

When this storyline started, it was nightfall on the island. At the end of this issue, the sun is rising, as Hulk rides a magical horse off the island...since we don't know what time it was at any point in this storyline, (just that it ends at dawn) it's probably best to put all 5 issues on the same day on the calender, (after midnight and up till dawn one morning). 

As for other placement beyond that, I don't exactly how this fits in with Hulk's recent appearances in Cap. America and the Falcon and elsewhere, but I think this is perhaps the Hulk's latest appearance, (on the calender to date). But we'll know more as future issues unfold. 

That's it for now. Next up is that Punisher arc...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 May 2005 03:42 pm    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
This is going to be a fast and simple review, for a storyline which we learn is mostly one big dream sequence... 
<<<

Actually, it's not. The Mindless Ones were real. The doubtful stuff is meant to be before he came to the island, with the insinuation that Nightmare's been manipulating him in the present-day (i.e., it's not a big infodump now, but dribs and drabs for months until he finally ends up on the island itself). 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Besides that, it appears that it's the "Unleashed Hulk" talking to Banner in the flashback sequences. That makes these flashbacks highly suspect to me, since it's always been my understanding that Banner's multiply personalities didn't manifest until he became the Hulk for the first time. Beyond that, all of these flashbacks are suspect because Nightmare in the end says he's been messing with the Hulk's memories. So I'm writing these flashbacks off until they are proven canon. 
<<<

It's long-established that the personalities existed (and, occasionally, manifested) before he got hit by the gamma bomb. The Savage Hulk's are ambigous, since apparently they were all when Banner was getting beaten by his dad, but there's one specific reference to Fixit (Grey Hulk) coming out briefly when Banner was a teenager in Hulk #377 (and corroborated in a later issue when the girl he... kissed... talks about how the incident disturbed her). This inserts the Gravage (Unleashed) Hulk as having split from Banner between the Savage H & Fixit, sometime after Banner's dad killed his mum and before Fixit split in his college years. 

And note that Nightmare seems to be "discovering"/watching the flashback events, like watching a movie, rather than creating them, in Hulk 78. (Has there ever been any reference to whether Banner's "Aunt Sue" is still alive, BTW?) 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
It doesn't say how Betty got to the island...here last appearance was in Hulk #76. As for when exactly Nightmare "had his way with her" (at least in a dream) we're not told when that happened as well... 
<<<

Presumably, it's intended to be the coma Bruce Jones retconned her death into. Since she's alive, unless PAD's Hulk 465-466 has been wiped as a "bad dream", the Casey-Jenkins-Jones crystal chamber stuff must still be around. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
As for other placement beyond that, I don't exactly how this fits in with Hulk's recent appearances in Cap. America and the Falcon and elsewhere, but I think this is perhaps the Hulk's latest appearance, (on the calender to date). But we'll know more as future issues unfold. 
<<<

Well, this leads into a one-issue standalone (Which, from the preview, appears to have no explicit reference to any other story), which leads into a HoM crossover. Latest would seem to make sense.

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Posted: 29 May 2005 11:26 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Actually, it's not.  
<<<

Sorry, I should've clarified. I didn't mean literally that "it's all been a big dream sequence". I just meant the story flows like a dream sequence, happening all in one night, (instead of spread over days)...for calender purposes, stories spread over several days are harder to review than stories set all in one day, (or night). 

And I didn't know about the appearances of personalities popping up before Hulk #1...I always thought Banner had a normal childhood, (at least after his mother was killed anyway)...this story was too depressing, teenage Banner had it worse than teenage Peter Parker. Can't anyone have a happy childhood? 


Quote: 
>>>
This inserts the Gravage (Unleashed) Hulk as having split from Banner between the Savage H & Fixit, sometime after Banner's dad killed his mum and before Fixit split in his college years. 
<<<

But Unleashed Hulk came into existence because of the whole Onslaught ordeal, (or so I thought)...Peter David makes it sound like with this storyline that all of the Hulk's personalities were already there in his head from the time Banner was a kid. Correction, all of the personalities that PAD came up with, (no Devil Hulk...PAD feels that if it's some other writer's creation, it doesn't count).  

And in these same flashbacks, Banner is talking to his imaginary friend, whom he calls the Hulk, (and who refers to himself as Hulk...). It's my understanding that the name Hulk was given to the creature in Hulk #1. Rick Jones or the army calls him that, and the name sticks... 

Also, Gen. Ross comes and sweeps Banner off, having him trained by the army? I thought Banner went to college...I know we see Banner in college in flashbacks in the Paul Jenkins issues, (it's where he met Angela Lipscombe). Or do those not count because it's someone else writing 'The Hulk'? 

I'm just not buying these flashbacks as canon. Maybe parts of them are, but the details are distorted, thanks to Nightmare...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 May 2005 10:28 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Well, this leads into a one-issue standalone (Which, from the preview, appears to have no explicit reference to any other story), which leads into a HoM crossover. Latest would seem to make sense. 
<<<

Okay, I'll place this after the M/TU3 story arc in which Hulk appeared and before the House of M storyline. That makes H3 77-81 too late to be included in the upcoming calendar update, but thanks to Kevin for the analysis. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 May 2005 02:45 pm    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
And I didn't know about the appearances of personalities popping up before Hulk #1...I always thought Banner had a normal childhood, (at least after his mother was killed anyway)...this story was too depressing, teenage Banner had it worse than teenage Peter Parker. Can't anyone have a happy childhood? 
<<<

On pre-IH1 Hulks, the first reference to a pre-IH1 Hulk was by Bill Mantlo (who some reports have as ripping off an unpublished Barry Windsor-Smith story) in the early-300s of IH, when he establishes that the Hulk personality came about because of Banner's father beating him. Later, Al Milgrom has the Hulk personality fluctuate (though not for the first time) when Banner and the Hulk are remerged, and we end up with the "Fixit" personality in a Grey Hulk body, which is the status quo PAD inherits @ #331. Later, in the run up to the merge stories in the #370s, the Savage Hulk reemerges alongside Fixit (Grey Hulk). Then, in the merge story (#377), we get explicit references that the Savage Hulk split off in Banner's childhood, and Fixit in Banner's late teenage years (including a flashback to Fixit briefly emerging, if only for a few seconds, backed up by other flashbacks/references to the incident in #410-411). We haven't had any flashbacks to this period before, AFAIK. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
>>>
This inserts the Gravage (Unleashed) Hulk as having split from Banner between the Savage H & Fixit, sometime after Banner's dad killed his mum and before Fixit split in his college years. 
<<<

But Unleashed Hulk came into existence because of the whole Onslaught ordeal, (or so I thought)...Peter David makes it sound like with this storyline that all of the Hulk's personalities were already there in his head from the time Banner was a kid. Correction, all of the personalities that PAD came up with, (no Devil Hulk...PAD feels that if it's some other writer's creation, it doesn't count).   
<<<

Like I said, that new - PAD wasn't even the one who established that (a) Hulk existed pre-IH1. This just matches Gravage/Unleashed to a specific period. And I'd argue whether Jenkins' "cave of Hulks" ever made sense, since Banner sneezing would have had to splinter a new personality to get that ^&%&ing many. 

[I don't like the term "Unleashed Hulk" for the Gravage Hulk (to me, Unleashed Hulk refers specifically to the HR Bannerless period, rather than the personality), and there are occasional other Gvge periods here & there during transitional periods.] 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
And in these same flashbacks, Banner is talking to his imaginary friend, whom he calls the Hulk, (and who refers to himself as Hulk...). It's my understanding that the name Hulk was given to the creature in Hulk #1. Rick Jones or the army calls him that, and the name sticks... 
<<<

Didn't like that, I'll admit. Here's PAD's excuse 
http://www.comicboards.com/hulk/view.php?rpl=050201052716


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Also, Gen. Ross comes and sweeps Banner off, having him trained by the army? I thought Banner went to college...I know we see Banner in college in flashbacks in the Paul Jenkins issues, (it's where he met Angela Lipscombe). Or do those not count because it's someone else writing 'The Hulk'? 
<<<

PAD had him go to college as well (note the #377 Fixit flashback I mentioned above). Presumably, this just means that the military paid his way through for him. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I'm just not buying these flashbacks as canon. Maybe parts of them are, but the details are distorted, thanks to Nightmare... 
<<<

And I don't see why they can't be. Even for the bits Banner didn't see, well, that's why I asked above whether "Aunt Sue" has been established as alive in the present day or not.

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Posted: 30 May 2005 02:49 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Didn't like that, I'll admit. Here's PAD's excuse 
<<<

It's... er, not a very good one, is it? I mean, obviously he's right that it's not an outright contradiction, but it does generate a remarkable and highly unlikely coincidence.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 May 2005 03:15 pm    
By Somebody

If I thought it was a good one, I would have said "explanation," rather than "excuse"

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Posted: 30 May 2005 10:21 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

PAD is going to have to flesh out what he's intended for this "Unleashed" Hulk a little bit more before I'll accept the flashbacks as canon. Nightmare's statement that he's manipulating the Hulk's memories is enough to make me suspicious, (yes, he "tunes in" to the flashback sequence, watching it like a television show, but he could still be directing the show as it goes along)...but maybe we should wait and see if these flashbacks are referenced anymore... 


Quote: 
>>>
[I don't like the term "Unleashed Hulk" for the Gravage Hulk (to me, Unleashed Hulk refers specifically to the HR Bannerless period, rather than the personality), and there are occasional other Gvge periods here & there during transitional periods.] 
<<<

Gravage would mean a true mixture of the two personalities, "Savage" Hulk and the "Joe Fixit" personality...can it be proven that this new personality is truly a merging of the two prior personalities? 

"Unleashed" is simply the best we can come up with for right now, in my opinion, (until PAD explains this all a little bit more)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 31 May 2005 04:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

How about "Grouchy Hulk". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Jun 2005 02:59 pm    
By Enda80

Was the daughter of Nightmare in this issue supposed to be the Dreamqueen, Nightmare's daughter introduced in some old issues of Alpha Flight?

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Posted: 02 Jun 2005 09:19 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

No, but Issue #81 makes reference to her, I believe. Nightmare states that "Daydream" is as much a failure in his eyes as his other daughter, (whom he doesn't mention by name, but I would take it to mean Dreamqueen).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 45

Posted: 03 Jun 2005 08:08 am    Post subject: Captain America Comics #1
By Adamant

I'll do in-depht analysis on the 3 stories that was retold in Tales of Suspense, as these help pointing out various changes. 
The other stories will get briefer sympnosises. 
Also, what should I do with the text stories and back-up features? The text stories all star Cap and Bucky, and fit nicely into the continuity at the time they were published, do they count as canon? 
As for the back-up features, Hurricane (and Mercury) was retonned into being Makkari the Eternal, while the recurring villain Pluto was really Warlord Kro. Tuk Caveboy, while being a very entertaining, continuous story, only has the existance of Atlantis and various Atlantean characters to rely on. It also got cancelled rather early, before it got really interesting. How canon are these stories? 

There were other back-up features later on, like Father Time, but I've never read them. The Classic Years only included the Cap comics (not the text stories), but I'm sure Marvel will release this stuff in Masterworks form before too long. 

CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 

Story 1: Meet Captain America 

USA 1941. Patriotic Americans are joining the army to defend the country if it should be attacked by Nazis. However, nazi agents with forged papers are among these young men, and they end up causing large scale sabotage. This problem is so serious that a group of high-ranked army officials seek help from President Roosevelt himself. And help they get. J. Arthur Grover, chief of FBI, has been working on a secret project for some time. The army officials follow Grover to a curio shop, where the young, female agent X-13, disguised as an old woman with one of those cool Marvel lifelike masks, lead them to an underground laboratory where the final phase of the experiment is about to take place (good timing with the arrival of the army officials at the White House, eh?). Professor Reinstein injects the frail Steve Rogers with a needle, and suddenly Steve's muscles begin to bulge. Professor Reinstein explains that the serum Steve, whom he dubs Captain America, was injected with greatly increase mental and physical ability, and will be used to turn all american soldiers into mighty super-soldiers who will crush the nazis once and for all. Well, that's what would've happened if one of the army officials witnessing this wasn't a Gestapo agent. The man draws a gun, and kills both professor Reinstein and Mr. Grover, before Captain America grabs him, and starts pounding the crap out of him. The villain freaks out and tries to escape, but stumbles into some laboratory equipment, and is burnt to ashes by the hi-voltage wires he becomes enmeshed in. 
Steve Rogers is sent to Camp Lehigh, where he will disguise himself as a normal soldier. The reason behind this is somewhat unclear, but no one in the regiment is informed of the fact that Rogers is really Captain America. 
Still, one person, regiment mascot Bucky Barnes does find out when he enters Steves tent as Steve is putting on his costume. And there's only one logical way to solve this problem: Bucky is now the partner of Captain America, and goes under the name Bucky... yeah. But he has a dumb mask barely covering his eyes, so no one will ever think of making the connection. 

...no, I don't like Bucky. 

Character appearances: 
ROOSEVELT, FRANKLIN DELANO 
PHILLIPS, GENERAL RICHARD CHESTER 
CLEMSON, SPECIAL AGENT/HEINZ KRUGER 
GROVER, J. ARTHUR/DR. ANDERSON (retconned into a new character)) 
X-13/AGENT R 
SIMMS, UNDER-SECRETARY (one panel appearance)) 
PROFESSOR REINSTEIN/ABRAHAM ERSKINE 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN "BUCKY" BARNES 

(names in italics are those of characters who are in the story, but aren't named until later retcons. As for general Phillips, he has been given two different first names in different retcons. I listed both, and Richard Chester sounds better than Chester Richard) 

All first appearances, with the possible exception of Roosevelt. Pretty sure we never see Grover or X-13 again (Grover died, and this was before people started getting better). Reinstein also died, but I'm sure he'll show up in a flashback somewhere. Roosevelt continues making appearances here and there whenever the president of 1933-1945 is needed in a story, the army officials are never seen again (I think. The nazi died, but the other guy IS one of the few people who knows Cap's identity. Maybe he appears again. I doubt it, but...). Cap and Bucky are one-shot characters, and are never seen again. Obviously. 

Coming up next: Unnamed story where Cap and Bucky battle their first actual opponents. Also the first appearance of supporting character Betty Ross. 


Story 2: Captain America (no actual title is given) 
The mysterious duo Sando (A moustached man with a monocle) and Omar (a wrinkled asian midget) are hosting a show at a theatre, where they claim Omar can see the future. After Sando stares into his eyes for a while, Omar looks into the nearby crystal ball, and sees "a terrible accident at Fort Bix". It's not made clear what it is, but it involves something exploding. And, at the instant Omar sees this, Fort Bix is blown to pieces. After reading about this in the paper, Steve and Bucky decide to check this out. At Sando's next show, the two soldiers are among the audience. As they settle down, Sando shakes off some reporters in his dressing room (He seems to talk with a german accent now... well, to a certain degree. Sando is one of the few germans in these stories WITHOUT a thick accent). Once again, Sando asks Omar to descibe what he sees in his crystal ball (we see the pictures as well, though I'm not sure if the audience does, or if it's just for effect). Omar says he can see the Hilltown Bridge, which is going to collapse. After hearing this, Steve and Bucky slip into a corner, put on their costumes, and run off towards the bridge.. but they don't even manage to get out of the theatre before they hear a loud explosion, as the bridge collapses. They immediately turn, and swing onto the scene to question Sando. Omar runs away, and Bucky gives chase, as Cap punches Sando in the face, downing him. A woman's cry for help alerts the captain, who follows the sound towards Sando's dressing room. As he enters, he is met by Omar and a couple of gunmen, two of them holding Bucky and a girl, who introduces herself as Betty Ross, captive. Sando enters the room right after, and introduces himself as von Krantz. Von Krantz and Betty, who had been investigating the ring for the government, tell Cap how the Gestapo plans these "accidents", and Sando and the "poor, idiotic Omar, von Krantz' tool" "predict" them, which is supposed to destroy the country's morale without seeming suspicious. Yeah, I don't really get it either. Anyway, Cap saves himself by hitting both gunman behind him in the face at the same time, while Bucky follows by throwing the gunman behind him over his head with a martial arts throw (mm, they have a name, but I forgot it). Cap and Bucky then continue beating up the Nazis in the room until von Krantz takes out a bomb, planning to blast everyone in the room to bits. Bucky jumps on him from behind, grabs the bomb, and throws it out the window. Cap then orders Betty to keep Krantz covered until the FBI arrives. The heroic duo then takes off into the night. 

Character appearances: 
SANDO/WOLFGANG VON KRANTZ (the name Wolfgang is given in the TOS retelling of this story) 
OMAR 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN "BUCKY" BARNES 
GOLDEN GIRL/BETTY ROSS (Golden Girl being her later, super hero alias) 

Sando and Omar are one-shot villains (most Golden Age villains are), and apart from the retelling in TOS, I don't think they're mentoined again. 
Betty Ross becomes a supporting character, making roughly one appearance in every issue. She eventually becomes the super hero Golden Girl, and the partner of Captain America (this is after Steve Rogers has been frozen, though). 

Story 3: Captain America and the Soldiers' Soup (text story) 

One night in camp, Steve Rogers is awakened by the missing sound of the sentry, and when he sneaks off to investigate, he finds the man dead in the bushes. After chaning to Captain America, he sees two men, called Slinky and Crusher, sneaking around the cook house, planning to pour poison in the kettle that will be used to cook soup in the next day (these guys have Brooklyn accents, by the way. Why do THEY want to kill a bunch of soldiers?). Cap attacks them, they fight a bit, then Bucky arrives, and there is more fighting, until Cap knocks both the bad guys out. The commotion has alerted a number of other soldiers, so Cap and Bucky escape through the window. The next day, the newspapers tell the story of the failed sabotage attempt. The sentry hadn't been killed afterall, just stunned, the killers (who didn't actually kill anyone.. why are the labelled as killers NOW?) had confessed, and the entire gang (who hadn't been mentoined before now) had been locked up. The Colonel is left wondering what the real identity of Captain America may be. It is also mentoined that Bucky is in the camp "because a kind hearted Colonel of an indulgent government just could not let such devotion as Bucky's go unrewarded". Oh, and Cap is six feet three high. 

Character appearances: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN "BUCKY" BARNES 
SLINKY 
CRUSHER 
COLONEL (eh, he seemed important enough to mention) 

Coming up next: A rather lame, chess-playing villain who got the honor of being the only Cap comic fron Captain America Comics #1 not to get a TOS reprint. Also, the first appearance of the Red Skull, who's far from lame and chess-playing. Sure, he's not the real Skull, but that's beside the point. He's still cool. 

Story 4: Captain America and the Chess-board of Death (title given in table of contents, does not appear in the story itself for some reason) 

In a dark basement, a man with huge glasses approaches a chessboard where the pieces are shapen like various real life people (including Cap and Bucky). The man places a chess piece shapen like himself on the table in front of the piece shaped like an Admiral Perkins, and, talking to himself, says he is removing him from the game - "Admiral Perkins will die tonight". These words are picked up by a group of german agents through a short vawe radio in the adjoining room, and the leader of the agents, a monocled man called Kameleon, tell two specific agents to take this job. As one of the agents mentoin that they never see the mysterious man's, Rathcone's, face, Kameleon says that soon all of America will bow down before him, as he is to become the Fuehrer of the New Regime. (Rathcone is American, by the way. Or, he doesn't have an accent) 
Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes are attending a lecture held by this Admiral Perkins, Bucky complaining that these meetings are boring and wanting to chase crooks instead (which he does an especially bad job at in this story), but once the curtain raises, what the audience see is the corpse of the admiral, with a bullet hole through the forehead, standing on the stage supported by some wooden poles. Steve and Bucky rush out of the lecture hall to look for the killer, and see him jumping over the fence as the exit. They quickly change into their costumes, and Cap tells Bucky to follow the man alone, as he himself takes to the rooftops. However, the man notices Bucky and attacks him with a knife, knocking him to the floor. Before he can do anything, though, Cap tackles him from behind and punches him. Cap forces the killer to talk by choking him, but the killer is shot by another agent before he can say anything. The agent then drives off before Cap and Bucky can follow. 
Back at Rathcone's, the villain is still playing around with his chessboard, this time announcing the death of a General Ellsworth. Kameleon tells a man called Herr Strangler to serve his fatherland. 
Back in camp, the man who will later be identified as Seregant Duffy orders Steve to stand guard in front of general Ellsworth's, who's in camp for inspection, tent. With Bucky tagging along, Steve decides to drop in and inform him that he'll be on guard, but finds the general dead inside. Newspapers are filled with articles on these murders of military geniuses, and Rathcone claims the time for invasion is near, and starts planning a large scale attack (sponsored by the nazis or something, I guess). But first, Captain America and Bucky are to be removed from the chessboard. And like all supervillains, Rathcone isn't pleased with simply having them killed by some random agent, and orders the two brought to headquarters alive instead. Once again, Kameleon sends Strangler to do the job. 
Bucky is setting in his tent in camp, in costume but without his mask (what the hell?) when Strangler enters. Strangler tells Bucky to follow his directions if he wants to find the guy who's been doing the killings. So that night, Bucky, in full costume, enters the old building he was told to come to. After walking down some stairs, he ends up at Rathcone's chess room, where he notices the chess pieces shaped like Cap and himself. Enter Rathcone, who tells Bucky he is the future dictator of America. Bucky tries to escape from this rather un-threatening, unarmed man, but Rathcone trips him with his cane, and then knocks him out by hitting him in the head with the same cane. Of course, simply killing Bucky alone is not enough for Rathcone, so he chooses to wait for the far more capable Cap to show up. 
Back at Camp Lehigh, Steve enters his tent and finds a note from Bucky about how he is going to a certain house, and will bring back a killer. Not believing in Bucky's abilities (rightfully so), Steve puts on his costume and head towards the house himself. As Cap enters the house, he is attacked by Strangler, whom he mangaes to knock out easily enough with a couple of punches. Rathcone then enters with a gun, and orders Cap into his chess room, where Bucky is tied to a chair (there's a swastika on the wall, so I guess Rathcone really IS a nazi. These stories aren't always clear on which villain's a nazi and which isn't). Cap instpect the chessboard, as Rathcone tells him he will now remove the two Cap and Bucky pieces for good... then Cap kicks the board into Rathcone, making him drop his gun, before knocking him out with a single punch. Woo. Bucky tells Cap there is a microphone in the chandelier, and that the others will be there soon. As the nazis arrive (Kameleon doesn't seem to be with them), Cap rips the chandelier down from the ceiling and knocks out three guys at once with one swing. After saving Bucky from a couple of knife-wielding nazis, Cap continues beating up nazis until none are left... until Rathcone revives and runs away, that is. Cap follows Rathcone, Rathcone picks up a chair and crushes it against Cap's head, and Cap gives Rathcone another good punch in the face, knocking him out again. Meanwhile, Bucky, finally doing something useful in this story, locates a room filled with documents, maps and plans for every single military and industrial center in both North and South America (and yes, there ARE a lot. There's a huge file cabinet filled with documents there). Cap calls FBI, and the two head back to camp. The next day, a person who may be Major Fields reads the article about how Captain America smashed a saboteur ring to Steve, and Steve talls a not-too-happy Bucky that Fields just invited the two to attend another lecture. 

Character Appearances: 
RATHCONE 
KAMELEON 
"NUMBER 15" 
"NUMBER 3" 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN "BUCKY" BARNES 
PERKINS, ADMIRAL 
"NUMBER 13"/STRANGLER 
DUFFY, SEREGANT 
ELLSWORTH, GENERAL 
FIELDS, MAJOR 

Seregant Duffy, although not named in this story, is the second member of Cap's supporting cast, and will make a lot of appearances further on. 
Rathcone is a (lame) one-shot villain, same with his gang, and I'm sure Major Fields doesn't appear again either. 

Coming up next, the Red Skull, whom I didn't get around to cover this time. 

Story 5: Captain America and the Riddle of The Red Skull 

Steve and Bucky is driving one Major Croy back to his home. Steve asks if he and Bucky should hang around a bit longer, as Croy has recieved a card from someone calling himself the Red Skull, but Croy believes it's just a prank, and tells the two to return to camp. That was a mistake, as a few minutes later, as Croy is sitting at his desk reading a book, a man with a red skull for a head climbs through the window, grabs Croy around his neck, and tells him to look into his eyes - to look at death. Soon afterwards, Major Croy lies dead on the floor with a gloating Red Skull standing over him. Later, as the body is found, Steve and Bucky are called over for questioning, as the Skull lurks outside the window. As our two heroes leave Croy's house, they quickly hide in another room when the officers aren't looking, put on their costumes, and head off to search for the killer. Or, Cap does, he orders Bucky to stay behind. Probably due to the awful job Bucky did last time.Bucky, however, decides to go look for the Skull himself. And find him he does, though I have no idea how. The Skull is telling his men that he needs money to overthrow the US government, and orders them to rob the First National Bank, as Bucky is spying on them through a skylight. However, being Bucky, he manages to alert the man guarding the front door by falling off the roof when leaning on the battered roof edge. Bucky tries fighting the man, but he proves too strong for him. Bucky is lead into the building, where he is presented to the Skull. The Skull recognizes the kid, and decides to hold him hostage, before killing him with his eyes of death. This is the moment Cap chooses to storm the building. The Skull orders his men to attack Cap, but our masked hero beats the all up in two panels. Apart from the Skull himself, that is, he escapes through a secret door. The next day at camp, Seregant Duffy (I guess.. doesn't really look like him, but Steve addresses him as "Sarge") orders Steve to the test of a new airplane. The group is met by a General Manor and a small, nervous guy named Mr. Maxon. The plane takes off, but the engines catch on fire, and it crashes shortly after. Mr. Maxon feels a bit sad about the plane, while Steve barks at him for seemingly not giving a damn about the men who died in it, which again causes General Manor to order Steve back in line. Later, Steve tells Bucky he is certain this is sabotage, and that Captain America is going to do something about it. Meanwhile, Manor says his goodbyes to Mr. Maxon and heads home, where his wife presents him with a package that just arrive. The package turns out to contain a red skull and a death threat note from the Red Skull. General Manor, just like Croy, passes it off as a joke, and throws the note into the fireplace... but as he turns around, he finds himself facing none other than the Red Skull himself. Manor pulls out a gun, but the Skull tackles him before he can fire, and orders the general to stare into his eyes - to look at death. After Manor dies, the Skull takes out a notebook, and crosses Manor's name off his list (Major Croy is already crossed off, of course). The two next victims on the list are none other than Captain America and Bucky. Yes, in that order, for some reason. Just then, Mrs. Manor enters the room with a gun, but drops it when she notices her dead husband. The Skull tells her his death is only for important people, and knocks her out with punch instead of killing her with his gaze. Enter Cap, who heard Manor's gunshot (it went off when the Skull tackled him). Cap tackles the Skull, and gives him a solid punch, sending him head first into the wall.. but the Skull gets up as if nothing had happened. The kull grabs a chair and crushes it against Cap's head, knocking him out. He crosses Cap's name off his list, and then picks him up to give him the "look of death" treatment. Enter Bucky, who swings in on a rope, and quite literally kicks the Skull's ass. That doesn't stop the Skull, of course, but it gives Cap time to get up, and give the Skull a couple of punches in the head, eventually crushing the skull he's wearing, revealing the Skull to be... yeah, you all know, it's Mr. Maxon. Bucky finds a hypodermic, and suddenly the Skull's trick is revealed. He scares people of of their minds with his "look of death" talk, and then injects poison into them when they're concentrating on the Skull's eyes. The Skull is all about killing with style, unlike Rathcone and the other lamers. And of course, the plane was sabotaged by Maxon too. Maxon hasn't given up yet, though, as he attempts to rab the needle from Cap. The needle falls on the ground, and Bucky holds on to Maxon, trying to prevent him from grabbing it. This eventually causes Maxon to roll over his needle, killing himself. Cap doesn't want to talk about why he didn't attempt to stop the Skull from killing himself, but calls the FBI and tells them of Manor's death and the Skull's suicide, before the two run off. Later, the G-men inspect Maxon's body, and finds a letter signed by the Fuehrer, promising Maxon the post of "Minister of all American Industry" for his spy work. 

Character appearances: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN "BUCKY" BARNES 
CROY, MAJOR 
RED SKULL/GEORGE MAXON 
DUFFY, SEREGANT 
MANOR, GENERAL CHARLES 
MANOR, MILDRED 

Even though he died, the Skull returns in CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS #3/1, while Cap, Bucky and Duffy are back in the next Cap story. Manor and Croy are just random victims of the day, and as they died, we won't see them again. Not Mrs. Manor either. Apart from in the TOS retelling, of course. 

Next: A different super hero - HURRICANE, and a not-as-super hero - TUK CAVEBOY as well. Tuk being the better of the two IMO.

Last edited by Adamant on 10 Jun 2005 04:11 am; edited 7 times in total

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Posted: 03 Jun 2005 11:17 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Adamant wrote: 
>>>
Also, what should I do with the text stories and back-up features? The text stories all star Cap and Bucky, and fit nicely into the continuity at the time they were published, do they count as canon? 
As for the back-up features, Hurricane (and Mercury) was retonned into being Makkari the Eternal, while the recurring villain Pluto was really Warlord Kro. Tuk Caveboy, while being a very entertaining, continuous story, only has the existance of Atlantis and various Atlantean characters to rely on. It also got cancelled rather early, before it got really interesting. How canon are these stories? 
<<<

Our policy is that Golden Age stories are canon, unless they're invalidated by modern era stories. Yes, the true identities of some of the characters have been revealed to be someone other than they were originally thought, but I'm not aware of anything that invalidates the back-up features. In fact, you could argue that these revelations actually cement their application to canon. Furthermore, technically, issue analyses are performed on *books*, not individual stories (although we wouldn't refuse an analysis of an individual story, if that's all the contributor had available), so yes, if you have access to the backups, we'd be eager to hear about them. 


watching: both sides

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Thread 46

Posted: 04 Jun 2005 02:58 pm    Post subject: TALES TO ASTONISH 90/2-94/2 (Hulk stories)
By shandrakor

Well, finals are taken care of, and I don't have work for at least a few more days. Now that I've got the High Evolutionary mess done with, I was finally able to wrap this one up. I should be able to finish out the TTA Hulk stories this afternoon. 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #90/2 (1-10) 
One day, sometime after TTA 89/2 (1-10). Hulk is rampaging around, crushing everything he sees. It occurs to him that he should be attacking military installations, but the stress of trying to figure out which ones to destroy first changes him back to Banner. Recognizing the danger that Hulk poses, Banner determines to find some way to destroy Hulk, at any cost. Elsewhere on the base, Ross and Talbot have determined that a foreign spy has infiltrated the ranks, and they send men, including the spy, to go root him out. According to Betty, Banner has been missing for days. Banner tries to use the gamma ray machine on himself again, but is dragged off by soldiers looking for the spy. The spy decides to see what the machine does, and ends up being zapped with an extra-large dose of gamma rays, and becomes Abomination. Banner quickly becomes Hulk, they fight, and Abomination wins. For his own protection, he takes Betty hostage and bounds away. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
STRANGER 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ABOMINATION/EMIL BLONSKY 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #91/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 90/2 (1-10). Believing that their only hope to defeat Abomination is Hulk, they rush his body into the base hospital. The doctor notes that Hulk is dying, and theres nothing he can do, but Rick Jones bursts in and reminds everyone of the importance of gamma rays. They zap Hulk with more gamma rays, which revive him. Of course, Hulk isnt interested in discussing helping out the army, but before he can bound off, Rick manages to talk him down and he shifts into Banner. Banner reminds everyone about his infinite weapon and the infra-gamma rays it can use to attract and then destroy Abomination. They use the machine, Abomination is forced to return, and the gamma energy begins to be drained from him. Unfortunately, Banner switches over to Hulk at the sight of Abomination, and trashes the infinite machine in his haste to attack. This time, Hulk seems to have the upper hand in the fight. Elsewhere, Stranger realizes that Hulk has too much willpower to be fully controlled, and decides that Abomination would make a much better lackey. Stranger teleports Abomination up to him, and releases the last of his controls on Hulk. This clears up Hulks mind enough to let him walk away peacefully. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
ABOMINATION/EMIL BLONSKY 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
STRANGER 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #92/2-FB (2p2) 
Single frame, concurrent with the fight between Hulk and Abomination in either TTA 90/2 or TTA 91/2. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
ABOMINATION/EMIL BLONSKY 

TALES TO ASTONISH #92/2 (2-10) 
One day, sometime after ST 156 (1-12). News reports indicate that Hulk has been missing for the last month, and warn citizens to contact a special hotline if either Hulk or Banner is spotted. Betty is still trapped in the denial state of grief, Talbot is still trying to get her to like him, and Rick Jones is unsuccessfully using his Teen Brigade contacts to locate Hulk. Banner himself is hiding in a small apartment in New York, building a machine he hopes will cure him of being Hulk. Unsurprisingly, he finds that another dose of Gamma Rays still doesnt solve the problem, and angry over his failure, he becomes Hulk. From the roof he sees a glowing light in the sky, tries to leap up to the UFO and is knocked to the ground. The UFO lands and reveals itself to be Silver Surfer. 
Characters: 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*Various Teen Brigade members 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #93/2 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 92/2 (1-10). Hulk tries to pick a fight with Silver Surfer, but is defeated quickly. Police with flamethrowers show up as Surfer is flying away and pin Hulk down while stalling for tank support. Empathizing with this treatment after the way people have been reacting to him, Surfer decides to rescue Hulk. Hulk begs Silver Surfer to take him to another world, where he can be left alone, and when Surfer explains that hes trapped on earth, Hulk becomes enraged. They fight, and Silver Surfer wins again. Realizing the problem, Silver Surfer prepares to purge the gamma rays from Hulks body when Hulk attacks again. Frustrated with Hulks behaviour, Surfer gives up and leaves. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #94/2-FB (5p3-5p5) 
One day. Shows the first success of the Evolutionarys. Beast doesnt look like a Dalmatian, and this makes more sense if its the first of the New Men, so it occurs between ASM@ 22/3-FB (3p3-3p5) and SSU 1-FB (29). 
Characters: 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 

WEST COAST AVENGERS ANNUAL #3/3 (2) 
Immediately following T 135 (1-16). The High Evolutionary and his New Men activate the hyperspace engines and go in search of a new planet to live on. 
Characters: 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 
*PORGA 
*TAGAR 
*Knights of Wundagore 

WEST COAST AVENGERS ANNUAL #3/3 (3) 
Time-lapse, sometime after WCA @3/3 (2). The High Evolutionary and his New Men find a new world, and settle on it. The Evolutionary creates mates for all his New Men. 
Characters: 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 
*Knights of Wundagore 

TALES TO ASTONISH #94/2-FB (6p2) 
One day, sometime after WCA@ 3/3 (3). The New Men have formed a peaceful utopia on their new world. 
Characters: 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 
*Knights of Wundagore 

WEST COAST AVENGERS ANNUAL #3/3 (4) 
One day, sometime after WCA@ 3/3 (3), and shortly before TTA 94/2 (1-). The High Evolutionary is hard at work when Porga bursts in. Hes badly beaten, and he explains that without direct supervision, the New Men have lapsed back into bestial behaviour. Porga dies, and the Evolutionary sends a shuttle to Earth and find help. 
Characters: 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 
*PORGA 
*RAM, SIR-BTS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #94/2-FB (6p3-6p4) 
One day, shortly after WCA@ 3/3 (4) (This could be the same day). The High Evolutionary looks out at the civil unrest and rioting that the New Men have started. 
Characters: 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 
*Knights of Wundagore 

TALES TO ASTONISH #94/2 (1-10) 
One day, sometime after TTA 93/2 (1-10). Just after dawn, near a lake surrounded by green trees. Hulk comes across a pair of hunters who have tranquilized a caribou and chases them off. They radio the High Evolutionary, somewhere off Earth, who demands that they retrieve Hulk. They use gas pellets to knock Hulk unconscious, strap him down in the shuttle, and launch him into space. Sir Ram comes to check on him, and Hulk breaks free, knocking the Knight out. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 
*RAM, SIR 

Note: This must be the same Sir Ram as in the Quicksilver series, since it is established in those books that Sir Ram is one of the Evolutionarys oldest creations. He appears to die in the next issue, but he simply must have survived. God knows everyone else manages to dodge death 

----- 

Corrected Chronologies: 

High Evolutionary: 
See edits to Rebuilt High Evolutionary Chronology post 

PORGA 
SSU 1-FB 
SSU 1-FB 
**{T 134} 
**T 135 
**WCA@ 3/3 

TAGAR 
SSU 1-FB 
SSU 1-FB 
**{T 134} 
**T 135 
**WCA@ 3/3 
T 406 
T 407-BTS 

Note: There might be other entries missing from Porga and Tagar, these are just the ones I found looking at the Evolutionary chronology I posted. 

RAM, SIR 
Edited chronology will be included in post of TTA 95/2 - TTA 101/2

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Thread 47

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 03:22 pm    Post subject: X-Men: Prelude To Perdition no.1 (Cover: Mutant Apocalypse)
By Jason Doty

X-Men: Prelude To Perdition (1995, 16 pgs., through Capcom Games) 

Story: Prelude To Perdition 

At a mutant testing facility in Genosha, Apocalypse tells a group of captives that they should be honored that he is tested. Just then an alarm sounds and Apocalypse views on a monitor Psylocke, weldind a psy-katana. Just then Cyclops, Beast , and Gambit burst through the wall. The X-Men say that they have thwarted his current plan, then Psylocke enters. While the X-Men were freeing mutants and battling their way to Apocalypse, Wolverine was sent to take out a Sentinel manufacturing plant. Just then, Wolverine in the hand of a Sentinel gets pushed through the roof. Apocalypse makes a getaway, but finds that some of the mutants he has been testing were infected by the Brood. Psylocke goes after him and sees that he is fighting them. Above the complex the other X-Men defeat the Sentinel, that crashes onto the complex causing it to cave in on Apacalypse and the Brood. The X-Men with the help of the Genoshan army search the rubble and find that Apocalypse has escaped. They then round up the Brood corpses and place them in containment. They are thanked by Magistrate Anderson and then return home, but Cyclops believes they are being watched. 

They are, On Avalon, Magneto views the X-Men and explains how he gave them the information because it would leave Xavier helpless. 

When the X-Men return home they are told to report to the Danger Room where they find Professor X trapped under steel gurders. When they rush in the doors close behind them and Professor X disappears. The X-Men are shunted through different holographic places they have been and also glimpse that one of the Acolytes is controlling the Danger Room. Professor X is unconscous on the floor. 

Before the X-Men can escape they battle holographic images of Juggernaut and Omega Red. Just then Professor X wakes up and hits Amelia Vaught with a psychic blast. As he shuts down the Danger Room, she teleports away with Cyclops, Wolverine, and Psylocke. The other X-Men ponder where they have gone. On Avalon, the three X-Men stand trial while being gaged. Exodus accuses them of aiding the oppresive Genoshans, while several Acolytes watch including Frenzy, Scanner, and four others. He asks how they plead? Magneto then says they say nothing because they are guilty and there is only punishment... 

Story continues in Capcom's Mutant Apocalypse Video Game 

Note: This story will probally be made non-canon because it continues in a game, but if we said untold story it might pass. 

Chronological clues: 
X-Men in Jim Lee era uniforms (Wolverine with metal claws and Psylocke using a psychic sword rather than her psychic knife) 
Genosha seems temporarily under a state of peace between mutants and humans. 
Magneto on Avalon in charge of Exodus and Acolytes. 

Characters: 
Apocalypse 
Psylocke 
Cyclops 
Gambit 
Beast 
Wolverine 
two unknown mutants 
Several Brood (3) 
Magistrate Anderson 
several Genoshan troops 
a Sentinel 
Magneto 
Amelia Vought 
Professor X 
Frenzy 
Exodus 
Scanner 
four unknown Acolytes

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Thread 48

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 03:59 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: Son Of Canada no.1
By Jason Doty

Wolverine Son Of Canada no.1 (2001, 14 pgs., appears to be given away through Doritos) 

Story: Wolverine: Son Of Canada 

In Vancouver Wolverine, Hulk , and Spider-Man are transported through a portal and are quite suprised. Realizing they have been transported to Canada, Wolverine suggests they in vestigate the portal they just came from that is looming over their heads. Spider-Man anchors them with a webline, while Hulk picks them up and leaps into the portal. Inside they see that Storm, Captain America, Thor, Thing, and Silver Surfer are all trapped by some sort of dark energy. the energy then tries to grab them. Wolverine slahes it, then Hulk pulls them back to Earth, but when they come through they are in Calgary. The tenacles continue to come after them. Hulk grabs one and pulls. It was conected to a being called Darkforce. He says that they are too late and that the signal has already been sent to his master Blastaar. The three follow Darkforce back through the portal and end up in Toronto. They fight more Darkforce entities and then decide to try and free the others. Once free they travel around Canada and destroy transmitters. They then face off against Blastaar and the remaining Darkforce entities in New Foundland, saving the day. 

Chronological clues: 
Spider-Man was just chasing Green Goblin when he was abducted. 
Hulk is not smart and green. 
Wolverine has metal claws and is wearing the yellow costume. 
Storm is wearing her Adam Kubert era uniform (from the time Cable was part of the team) 

Characters: 
Wolverine 
Spider-Man 
Hulk 
Captain America 
Storm 
Thor 
Thing 
Silver Surfer 
Blastaar 
Darkforce 
Many of hundreds of being that look just like Darkforce or are Darkforce.

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Thread 49

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 05:56 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: In Global Jeapordy no.1
By Jason Doty

Wolverine: In Global Jeapordy no.1 (1993, 15 pgs. In cooperation with World Wildlife Fund) 

Story: The Heart of Animals 

In Montana, Wolverine is investigating missing animals, when he comes across a bear who has invaded a campsite. He stops the campers from shooting it, but the bear disappears. 

In the Mediterranean, Namor is swimming talking to himself about how humans are polluting the Earth. He comes across some seals in the polluted waters, but as he tries to lead them to safety they disappear. 

In Africa, Ka-zar and Shanna hear gunshots and go to investigate. They come upon pochers hunting a rhino. They stop the pochers but the rhino disappears. 

They all use their own means to track where the animals have been sent. Wolverine uses the X-Men's computers to track the energy signature of the teleportation device, Namor asks the ocean life to lead him, and Ka-zar and Shanna contact the World Wildlife Foundation who tells them reports of a mysterious island North of New Guinea. 

Ka-zar, Shanna and Zabu arrive at the island and think it is like a mini-Savage Land with many exstinct animals. Just then Wolverine shows up and says it is nice to see them, but they tell him to hold on because they think he might be a part of what is going on. Just then, Namor arrives and wonders what three legendary hunters are doing here. Wolverine is upset that they all think he is involved and he and Namor get into a fight. Shanna accidently gets hit in the head with a rock and then an upset Ka-zar and Zabu break them up. 

Then a strange individual shows up and offers to attend to Shanna's wound. He explains that he is the Conservator and he has created this island as a sanctuary for wildlife. Once inside his compound, He says they cannot leave and incases them in forcefields. They try to reason with him to no avail. Just then, Devil Dinosaur comes through the wall and destroys the device that is holding the others captive (Zabu found him on the island). During this the Conservator is injured. When the heroes ask if he is o.k. he has a change of heart. He decides to donate the island to the World Wildlife foundation to help educate people. The heroes depart. 

In Africa, The heroes are telling Ka-zar what a nice compound he and Shanna have when they hear someone screaming "shoot! shoot!", but they just find some tourists taking pictures. 

Chronological clues: 
Wolverine has yellow costume and metal claws. 
Ka-zar, Shanna, and Zabu are in Africa. 
Namor is in his swim-trunk outfit. 

Characters: 
Wolverine 
4 campers 
Namor 
Ka-zar 
Shanna 
2 pochers 
Dr. Coral Mollison 
Zabu 
Conservator 
Devil Dinosaur 
Large group of people listening to the Conservator as he publically announces the turnover of the island to the World Wildlife Foundation 
2 Tourists

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Thread 50

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 12:31 pm    Post subject: Uncanny X-Men At The State Fair Of Texas
By Jason Doty

Uncanny X-Men At The State Fair Of Texas (1983, 16 pgs. giveaway through the Dallas Times Herald) 

Story: Battle at the State Fair of Texas 

The X-Men are training in the Danger Room, when Professor X summuns them to the control room because Cerebro has detected a new mutant in Dallas and it is imparitive that they find him before Magneto. Magneto beats them to Dallas and sways the mutant who can turn into a Centaur to his cause. When the X-Men arrive Magneto says they are here to enslave him. A battle insues with the X-Men fighting a misguided mutant and Magneto. Only when Magneto almost injures some horses that he dos'nt care about does the mutant switch sides. The X-Men and the mutant defeat Magneto with the luck of the "Big Tex" balloon somehow kicking Magneto and rendering him unconcous. The X-Men ask the mutant to join but he refuses. The X-Men then enjoy the fair. 

Chronolical clues: 
This is the Paul Smith era X-Men, with Shadowcat dressed in her Arial costume and going by that name. 
The characterization is a bit off, but the story could work if we placed it in the 2nd Dave Cockrum era when Kitty was trying out different costumes and code names, just around UX 150. 

Characters: 
Professor X 
Cyclops 
Storm 
Nightcrawler 
Colossus 
Wolverine 
Ariel 
Magneto 
Eques/ Daniel Wiley

				*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 11:40 am    Post subject: Wolverine Halloween Special no.1
By Jason Doty

Wolverine Halloween Special no.1 (1993, 8 pgs. including cover, paper giveaway about the sive of a Comic Shop News) 

Story: Hauntings 

While Wolverine is asleep, Nightmare is travling through his nightmare realm looking for someone to visit and picks Wolverine. Nightmare fights Wolverine in the dreamscape, then he disguises himself as Mariko Yashada, then as Professor X trully making it a nightmare. Wolverine awakes and thinks it is only a dream. He heads to the bathroom to put water on his face. In the mirror is Nightmare saying "This is only the beginning." 

Chronological clues: 
Nightmare has visited Wolverine before. 
Wolverine has metal claws in his dream. 

Characters: 
Wolverine 
Nightmare 

Note: This may be a reprint from M/CP, but being unsure I posted it anyway.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 04:29 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Your hunch is on the money ... this is reprinted from M/CP #99. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 24 May 2005 08:40 am    Post subject: Europa
By Todd

As noted over in Marvel Universe, the latest Handbook listed Euroforce, apparently bringing the Marvel Italia series EUROPA into canon. Here, then is an analysis of the first two issues (the only ones I have). The only things with major impact on the Project are appearances by Iron Man and Moloid Subterraneans. 

The series is titled GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA in the idicia. The main cover logo uses EUROPA (although Gemini and Euroforce appear above the word on issue 0). I use the abbreviation EUR below. I have issue 0 (April 1996) and 1 (July1996). The first story in each issue is a Gemini story while the second is Euroforce. Issues 2-4 apparently followed issue 1 on a monthly basis. 

First, the Gemini stories 

EUR 0/1 (uncertain time of year, Caine wears fur-trimmed leather jacket, but Dr. Zareth wears a micromini. Occurs during a few hours of one day.) 

Appearances: 
LANCELOT (real name unrevealed, agent of SHIELD) 
EDWIG CAINE 
DOCTOR ALMA ZARETH 

FRONT/GABRIEL CAINE 
GRIP/BRANDON BLAKE 
SUEDE/NICHOLAS BLAKE 
MANDALA/IMAN DASHIRE 
BALANCE/DEBORA CROVI 
above five teamed as GEMINI 

unnamed infant floating in glowing green globe (part of Caines secret plans) 

Synopsis: 
The SHIELD agent known only as Lancelot comes to the Italian base of Vera Croce to test Gemini, the superhero team assembled by Edwig Caine (the father of superhumans). Caine and Lancelot are injected into Geminis virtual reality training simulation by Dr. Zareth, an artificial intelligence expert. (The VR equipment comes from EuroMindthe European branch of SHIELD.) Once inside, Lancelot has Dr. Zareth run his program. He then evaluates their performances. Front, the leader, defeats an Iron Man simulation. Grip takes on Venom and Carnage with the help of his brother, Suede. Mandala defeats the Hulk. Lancelot is then blasted by Balances psychic powers and left to die in the malfunctioning VR equipment. He is nearly killed by (classic) Thor, Ghost Rider (Dan Ketch version), and Iron Man. He and Balance are extracted just in time, and Lancelot leaves abruptly to tell SHIELD that Gemini needs more tests. He wonders how Front will react to his years of training up in smoke, and decides that Caine must be in Italy to hide and suggests that Gemini is just the tip of the iceberg. This is porbably true, as the final panels show Dr. Zereth and Caine watching a baby float in a high tech green globe. 

EUR 1/1 Flashback 1 p. 3 

Synopsis: 
This is a flashback in which Caine remembers his first attempt at creating a super-human in England in 1963 (date probably topical as they seem to be trying to recreate the Hulk). 

Characters: 
MAINMAN/CLYDE MCCOY (first appearance, dies) 
EDWIG CAINE (first chronological appearance, behind the scenes) 

EUR 1/1 Flashback 2 p 6-17 (happens in late afternoon, some time has passed since EUR 0/1) 

Synopsis: 
This is the bulk of the issue. Carlo Paci reports on his television program that the terrorist group Alba Nera has encircled the military base of Monfalcone in Slovenia. SHIELD (including Lancelot) and Iron Man are being kept out by the army. Meanwhile, Gemini invades the base and defeats the terrorists. The base is destroyed though. 

Characters: 
BALANCE 
GRIP 
MANDALA 
SUEDE 
FRONT 
teamed as GEMINI 

REVO (Fronts computer interface, like Cables Professor) 
EDWIG CAINE 
CARLO PACI 
ALBA NERA (first appearance, terrorist group) 
LANCELOT 
SHIELD agents 
soldiers 
IRON MAN 

EUR 1/1 Flashback 3 p 18 (immediately precedes flashback 2) 

Synopsis: 
Before he encounters the terrorists, Front takes a CD of information from the base. 

Characters: 
FRONT 

EUR 1/1 Main Story (follows flashback 2 by 12 hours, at night, no moon) 

Synopsis: 
Edwig Caine reminisces about his life and work. He thinks about what Front (his son) may have found in Monfalcone. Meanwhile, Front leaves a church and goes to confront his father. They draw guns on each other and Front shoots, apparently killing Caine. 

Characters: 
FRONT 
EDWIG CAINE (may die in this story) 


Second, The Euroforce stories 

EUR 0/2 Main Story (all happens over the course of a few hours near sunset of one day, one scientist has a his dress shirts sleeves rolled up to his elbows; somewhere in Spain: a cave near cliffs leading down to a body of water in a location that was once under the influence of the Spanish Inquisition) 

Synopsis: 
Archaelogists call in EuroMind when they discover a demonic corpse amidst a treasure trove of artifacts collected and hidden by the Inquisition. Near the treasure trove is a shaft that leads down to Subterranea. EuroMind brings in EuroLab, five super-hero scientific researchers. EuroLab descends into the shaft discovering living demon shape-shifters and Moloid Subterraneans. When the creatures begin to overpower EuroLab, they call in Task Force, a super-powered arm of SHIELD whove been charged with providing security for EuroMind. Nuage uses her telepathy to persuade the Subterraneans to help, and together they manage to destroy the creatures. They then discover the origin of the demons. The Inquisition had forced a colony of Inhumans into the pit where they came upon a recently crashed Skrull spaceship. Forced to consume the Skrull corpses by starvation, they acquired shape-shifting abilities (Nuage references the Kings Crossing incident; in fact, she cites Reed Richards quite a lot in this issue). They then became what they had come to believe they were: demons. 

Characters: 
BORILLON (head of EuroMind) 
EUROMIND agents 

KEY/GEYR KLUGE 
DANGER/DOLPH DONGEN 
PICARO/ANTONIO REY 
NUAGE/SYLVIE ROUGE 
DEEP SIGHT/JANE MELVILLE 
above five teamed as EUROLAB 

DRAGONFLY 
BLUE CONDOR 
ICEBOY 
TIGER 
ARGENTO/MIKE ARGENTO 
above five teamed as TASK FORCE 

MOLOID SUBTERRANEANS 
DEMONS 

EUR 0/2 Flashback (Origin of the Demons) 

Characters: 
SPANISH INQUISITION 
INHUMANS (become DEMONS) 
SKRULL (corpse) 

EUR 1/2 (happens during one day, continues in the next issue; in Adriatic Sea near Venice and on Malacca) 

Synopsis: 
A plane crashes off the shore of Venice, and EuroLab assists with the rescue efforts since the crash was apparently caused by a spontaneous mutation like those EuroLab have been investigating. Danger ends up in a coma. Meanwhile, on Malacca, the Task Force follow a lead about the mutations into an ambush by the Lords of War. Iceboy, Blue Condor, and Dragonfly are apparently killed. (One suspects that in the next issue, Tiger and Argento (the remnants of Task Force) will merge with EuroLab as Euroforce). 

Characters: 
EUROMIND AGENTS 
NUAGE 
DEEP SIGHT 
PICARO 
KEY 
DANGER 
as EUROLAB 

DRAGONFLY (apparently dies) 
TIGER 
ARGENTO 
BLUE CONDOR (apparently dies) 
ICEBOY (apparently dies) 
as TASK FORCE 

LORDS OF WAR 

Third, Character Chronologies 

ALBA NERA 
EUR 1/1-FB 

DOCTOR ALMA ZARETH 
EUR 0/1 

ARGENTO/MIKE ARGENTO 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

BALANCE/DEBORA CROVI 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1-FB 

BORILLON 
EUR 0/2 

BLUE CONDOR 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

EDWIG CAINE 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1-FB 
EUR 1/1 

EUROMIND 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

CARLO PACI 
EUR 1/1-FB 

DANGER/DOLPH DONGEN 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

DEEP SIGHT/JANE MELVILLE 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

DRAGONFLY 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

FRONT/GABRIEL CAINE 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1-FB 
EUR 1/1-FB 
EUR 1/1 

GRIP/BRANDON BLAKE 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1-FB 

ICEBOY 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

IRON MAN 
EUR 1/1-FB 
see below 

KEY/GEYR KLUGE 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

LANCELOT 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1-FB 

LORDS OF WAR 
EUR 1/2 

MAINMAN/CLYDE MCCOY 
EUR 1/1-FB 

MANDALA/IMAN DASHIRE 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1-FB 

MOLOID SUBTERRANEANS 
EUR 0/2 
see below 

NUAGE/SYLVIE ROUGE 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

PICARO/ANTONIO TONI REY 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

REVO 
EUR 1/1-FB 
EUR 1/1 

SPANISH INQUISITION 
EUR 0/2-FB 

SUEDE/NICHOLAS BLAKE 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1-FB 

TIGER 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 

Iron Man, the Subterraneans, and the calendar: Nick Fury is head of SHIELD and Iron Man is wearing the armor he wore up for several years until the Crossing. The biggest thing would be to figure out if the storys placement should be based on cover date relative to American comics or on cover date based on Italian comics reprint which were about a year behind their American counterparts. 

Published the same month as issue 0: 
Fantastici Quattro 138 (FF 395, Fantastic Force 2-3) 
LUomo Ragno Deluxe 12 (ASM 402, Spider-Man 59, Web 125) 
Wiz 6 (X-Men Unlimited 7, Elektra: Root of Evil 3, Spider-Man Super-Special 1) 
X-Men Deluxe 13 (UXM 316-317, X-Men (second series) 35-36) 

Published the same month as issue 1: 
Fantastici Quattro 141 (FF 399-400, Fantastic Force 7) 
LUomo Ragno Classic 66 (ASM 197-199) 
LUomo Ragno Deluxe 15 (Spider-Man Unlimited 10, Spider-Man: tHe Parker Years) 
Wiz 9 (Gen X 4, Spider-Man: Lost Years 2, Spider-Man 2099 Special) 
X-Men Deluxe 16 (X-Men Chronicles 1, Astonishing X-Men (first series) 1-2)

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2005 09:23 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If the stories are otherwise neutral on the subject, I would assume that placement should be relative to the stories that were reprinted contemporaneously in Italy. After all, the book was aimed at Italian readers who would have been relying on those Italian reprints for their access to the Marvel Universe. (The average Italian reader is surely unlikely to be relying on American comics, both because of the practical difficulties in getting hold of them, and the fact that they're in a foreign language...!)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 May 2005 08:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I agree with Paul O. Without checking the comics themselves, my guess is that we may be talking about the period between IM 306 and 307, which I have assigned a very tentative placement of early June of Year 18 -- based on general placement of those Fantastic Four and Spidey stories that were being published in Italy at the same time. At least that's where I'll place Europa stories as a placeholder until I can review issues from that period in greater detail. Thanks, Todd.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 May 2005 10:18 am    
By Dormammu

I just read EUROPA #4 (10/96) mail page. It is said that Euroforce and Gemini's placement must be based on Iron Man stories "currently published in Italy". 
Italian series containing Iron Man reprints were: 
Iron Man e I Vendicatori 2 (4/1996): reprints Iron Man 308-309 
Iron Man e I Vendicatori 5 (7/1996): reprints Iron Man 312 
Iron Man e I Vendicatori 6 (8/1996): reprints Iron Man Annual 15, Iron Man 313, 
Iron Man e I Vendicatori 8 (10/1996): reprints Iron Man 319 

Hope this info could be useful.

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Posted: 28 May 2005 12:24 pm    
By Tragiko

Hi (this is my first post)... 

I am an Italian users and I have all issues of EUROPE (the prologue [#0] and the miniseries [#1-4]). If you want I can try to post within the next week a (very) short review of the tales (in every number was a story of "GEMINI" and one of "EUROFORCE") with the apparitions of the characters and annotations of continuity. Unfortunately, I do not know English very well (sorry) and therefore I will not be able to post an integral book review of the issues, I will have to limit me to the essential information. 

A complete book review, but in Italian, will be published later on my personal fan-site (see the signature for details). 

Thanx to who every day it manages chronologyproject.com and the forum, a true Bible for all the fan of the Marvel Continuity (you are wonderful!).
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

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Posted: 28 May 2005 12:54 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Tragiko wrote: 
>>>
Unfortunately, I do not know English very well (sorry) and therefore I will not be able to post an integral book review of the issues, I will have to limit me to the essential information.  
<<<

Thanks, Tragiko. The essential information (character appearances, and clues to chronological placement) are what we're truly looking for here. And don't worry, your English is much better than my Italian. 


watching: city confidential

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Posted: 03 Jun 2005 06:15 am    
By Tragiko

Here I am... 

I believe that I can post the review of EUROPA #0-4 during Saturday (tomorrow). 

Excuse me for the delay.
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2005 05:37 pm    
By Tragiko

Like promised, follow a book review of EUROPE #0-4 
(excuse for my english much insufficient one) 

 A post for each number  


---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #0 
(a prologue to the four issues miniserie) 

Date release: April 1996 
Publisher: Marvel Comics Italia/ Panini s.p.a. 
Artistic team: Italian/Spanish 

Cover by: Fabrizio Ugolini (pencils) / Giampaolo Frizzi (inks)  from Gemini 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

First tale: 
GEMINI #0 

Title: Meno che Zero  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Less than Zero) 


[ credits] 

Story: Giorgio Lavagna & Francesco Meo 
Pencils: Fabrizio Ugolini 
Inks: Giampaolo Frizzi 
Colors: Matteo De Benedittis 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi 


[ appearances ] 

LANCELOT (first appearance) 
true identity not revealed (presumably American), Agent of SHIELD [connected to Nick Fury], age not revealed 

EDWIN CAINE (first appearance) 
English, director of the Italian base of Vera Croce, a structure for the study and research of the superhumans, before Agent of MI-5 (English Intelligence Agency), age not revealed 

DOCTOR ALMA ZARETH (first appearance) 
Edwin Caine assistant and a greater world-wide expert of artificial intelligence 

GABRIEL CAINE (a.k.a. FRONT, first appearance) 
adoptive son of Edwin Caine, mutant that can control the weapon integrated in its body through an intelligence interface called Revo, age 21 

BRANDON BLAKE (a.k.a. GRIP, first appearance) 
mutant, equipped of claws of fire, advanced agilities and force, age 21 

NICHOLAS BLAKE (a.k.a. SUEDE, first appearance) 
mutant, twin brother of Brandon, it has the power to transform itself in a small sun, age 21 

IMAN DASHIRE (a.k.a. MANDALA, first appearance) 
Indian mutant, controls one mysterious and deadly black and extradimensional energy, age 21 

DEBORA CROVI (a.k.a. BALANCE, first appearance) 
Italian, has psychical powers and illusory abilities, age 21 

- evil IRONMAN (appears in Modular Armor [1993-1996], only in bad-ass holographic simulation) 
- evil VENOM (only holographic simulation) 
- evil CARNAGE (only holographic simulation) 
- evil HULK (apparently in the Professor version [1990-1995], only holographic simulation) 
- evil THOR (appears in classic uniform, only holographic simulation) 
- evil GHOST RIDER (Danny Ketch version [1990-1998], only holographic simulation) 

CHILD ONE (first appearance) 
a mysterious infant held within one stasis bubble, apparently connected to Edwin Caine 



[ places ] 

Base of Vera Croce (presumably in North-Italy, near Milan), connected to Euromind [= the European branch of SHIELD] 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Story occurs during few hours of one day [spring/summer of 1994, presumably] 
Edwin Caine assembled GEMINI (Front [leader], Grip, Suede, Mandala, Balance), a team composed from (mutates) born orphans all in the same day [year 1973] and same sign of zodiac [Gemini], as an European task-force (like the Avengers or Alpha Flight). Lancelot arrives to Vera Croce (from U.S.) in order to estimate the job of Caine and to guarantee the birth of its super-team of young heroes. Nick Fury and SHIELD mentioned from Lancelot. The last page of the tales introduces a baby, locked up in one protecting and guarded bubble from the staff scientific of Caine (after identified like Child-one). 



---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Second tale: 
EUROFORCE #0 

Title: Demoni del Passato  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Demons of the Past) 


[ credits] 

Story: Xavier Marturet 
Pencils: Paco Diaz 
Inks: Paco Diaz 
Colors: Camaleon Ediciones 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi & Marco Ficarra 


[ appearances ] 

GEYR KLUGE (a.k.a. Agent KEY, first appearance) 
German (berliner), leader of EUROLAB (a scientific division of Euromind), before Scientific Official of SHIELD, age not revealed 

SILVIE ROUGE (a.k.a. NUAGE, first appearance) 
French (birthplace: Avignone), member of Eurolab, has psychical and telecinetic powers (and telepathy), age 28 

ANTONIO TONI REY (a.k.a. PICARO, first appearance) 
Spanish, mutant and member of Eurolab, can generate energy blast much powerful (every time must but recharge itself) 

DOLPH DONGEN (a.k.a. DANGER, first appearance) 
Danish (birthplace: Copenhagen), mutant and member of Eurolab, its body can generate high-voltage energy, strength and durability, age 30 

JANE MELVILLE (a.k.a. DEEP SIGHT, first appearance) 
English (birthplace: Birmingham), member of Eurolab, expert of computer science and Biology, from 1993 some you leave of its body have been replaced from bio-cibernetics limbs in Adamantium (because of an incident), age 30 

FRANOIS BORILLON (first appearance) 
French, Director of EUROMIND (the European branch of SHIELD), met Geyr Kluge (Agent Key) during the first war in Kuwait [1990], before Official of the U.N. contingency, age 51 

DRAGONFLY (true identity not revealed, first appearance) 
leader of TASK FORCE (a selected military-corpse of Euromind), excellent soldier 

BLUE CONDOR (true identity not revealed, first appearance) 
member of TASK FORCE, mutant (has the ability to very increase the force of the limbs) 

ICEBOY (true identity not revealed, first appearance) 
Canadian, member of TASK FORCE, before special Agent of Canadian division of SHIELD [until 1994] 

TIGER (true identity not revealed, first appearance) 
Algerian, member of TASK FORCE, before special Agent of SHIELD [until 1993, connected to Nick Fury], has a invulnerabile and bullets resistant skin (like Luke Cage) 

ALEX MIKE ARGENTO (a.k.a ARGENTO, first appearance) 
Italian (birthplace: Rome), member of TASK FORCE, had a military training and he is an expert of weapon and guerrilla-tactics, age 26 

MOLOIDS (SUBTERRANEANS) 
some tens, one isolated European colony than alive in some deep caverns of Spain (no reference to the Mole-Man) 

MUTATES (they are similar demons, before they were a colony of INHUMANS) 
forced living in the caverns of Spain from the Spanish Inquisition, mutated into demons when they have eaten the rests of some Skrull falls with their spaceship on the Earth 

- a SKRULL (appears in holographic projection) 
perhaps one of the pilots of the fallen spaceship or however one of the alien crew 

- SPANISH INQUISITION (in flashback) 



[ places ] 

A cave labyrinth situated in a place not specified, somewhere in Spain. 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Story occurs during few hours of one day [summer of 1995, presumably]. 
EUROLAB arrives to the cavern where some scientists have found strange rests human and has been sighted one monstrous creature. Eurolab endures the attack of demoniac creatures (Inhumans mutates), but they are helped from a colony of Moloids. TASK FORCE takes part in order to help Key and its companions in difficulty. About the Skrulls crashed spaceship, Nuage references the Kings Crossing incident and she cites Reed Richards [http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/kingscrossingskrull.htm]. 



---------------------------------------------------------------------- 



 later the book review of GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #1 > 
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

Last edited by Tragiko on 05 Jun 2005 09:48 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 04 Jun 2005 05:39 pm    
By Tragiko

 < continued from previous post  


---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #1 (of 4) 

Date release: July 1996 
Publisher: Marvel Comics Italia/ Panini s.p.a. 
Artistic team: Italian/Spanish 

Cover by: Fabrizio Ugolini (pencils) / Giampaolo Frizzi (inks)  from Gemini 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

First tale: 
GEMINI #1 

Title: Prima Linea  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Front Line) 


[ credits] 

Story: Giorgio Lavagna & Francesco Meo 
Pencils: Fabrizio Ugolini 
Inks: Giampaolo Frizzi 
Colors: Matteo De Benedittis 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi & Marco Ficarra 


[ appearances ] 

EDWIN CAINE 
assassinated (apparently) before the conclusion of the episode (by Front) 

- CLYDE McCOY/MAINMAN (first appearance, died) 
appears in two panels (a flashback from Edwin Caine memories), Mccoy was a soldier of the English army that died [in 1963] after to have been subordinate to a experiment on the Gamma Ray (in order to become called hero MAINMAN). After the incident Caine was moved in Italy (he was the responsible of that experiment) 

GABRIEL CAINE/FRONT (and REVO, Fronts computer interface) 
BRANDON BLAKE/GRIP 
NICHOLAS BLAKE/SUEDE 
IMAN DASHIRE/MANDALA 
DEBORA CROVI/BALANCE 
teamed as GEMINI 

LANCELOT 

IRON MAN (alias Tony Stark) 
Iron Man is in mission on behalf of the U.S. Government, not like Avengers, he arrives in order to resolve the crisis to the military base of Monfalcone 

CARLO PACI (first appearance) 
Italian, reporter and anchorman of Prima Linea television program 

ALBA NERA Terrorist Group (first appearance) 
they occupy the military base of Monfalcone and threaten to make to explode it, perhaps fascist 

ITALIAN ARMY SOLDIERS 
arrives in order to resolve the crisis to the military base of Monfalcone, they remain to the outside of the occupied military base 



[ places ] 

Base of Vera Croce (presumably in North-Italy, near Milan), connected to Euromind [= the European branch of SHIELD] 

Military Base of Monfalcone (of Italian Army), in province of Gorizia and near to the boundary with the Slovenia 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Some week after the end of the first episode. Story occurs in the arc of 12 hours, from the terroristic attack of Alba Nera until to the homicide (presumed) of Edwin Caine [summer of 1994, presumably]. 
The terroristic group of ALBA NERA takes possession of the military base of Monfalcone, arrives also Iron Man from the U.S. but it leaves the task to resolve the crisis to GEMINI team (Front, Grip, Suede, Balance, Mandala). From the computer-mainframe of the military base Front discovers the truth on its origins and a terrible secret never revealed. Alba Nera is defeated from Gemini but the military-base is destroyed, then Front returns to the Vera Croce base and kills (apparently) Edwin Caine. Iron Man chronological appearance would have to be placed between IRON MAN #306 (Vol.1) and #307 [july-august 1994], before he joins in Force Works. 



---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Second tale: 
EUROFORCE #1 

Title: Il Seme della Corruzione Pt.1: Il Filo della Morte  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Corruption Seed Pt.1: The Wire of the Death) 



[ credits] 

Story: Xavier Marturet 
Pencils: Paco Diaz 
Inks: Paco Diaz & Giampaolo Frizzi 
Colors: Graphic Color Works & Annalisa Bassi 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi & Marco Ficarra 


[ appearances ] 

GEYR KLUGE/Agent KEY 
SILVIE ROUGE/NUAGE 
ANTONIO REY/PICARO 
DOLPH DONGEN/DANGER 
JANE MELVILLE/DEEP SIGHT 
Teamed as EUROLAB 

LORDS OF WAR (Oda, Kaneda, Sakuragi, first appearances) 
Japanese mercenaries, Oda and Kaneda are male, Sakuragi is female, they have technological armors and weapons, engaged by Nadir Inc. (a French multinational company correlate with A.I.M) 

ARGENTO 
TIGER 
ICEBOY 
DRAGONFLY (killed by Lords of War) 
BLUE CONDOR (killed by Lords of War) 
Teamed as TASK FORCE 

MUTATE HUMAN 
a man mysteriously transformed in monster (in an airplane during the flight) 

CREW OF THE AIRPLANE (pilots, hostess,) 
PASSENGERS OF THE AIRPLANE (and survivors) 

JOURNALISTS and MILITARY 
around the place of the airplane incident 



[ places ] 

Within an airplane with passengers, that crashes in Adriatic sea (near Venice). 

Mulu mountain, Peninsula of the Malacca (east Malaysia) 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Some day after the end of the first episode. Story occurs during few hours of one day [summer of 1995, presumably]. 
An airplane crashes in Adriatic Sea for the presence of a wild man-mutate between the passengers; EUROLAB takes part in order to save the survivors of the incident and to investigate on the presence of the mutate-demon. Meanwhile in Malaysia, TASK FORCE investigates on an other aircraft incident (always with human mutates of means), in which the NADIR INC. (a French multinational company) is implied. Task Force, without warning, is attacked from the LORDS OF WAR, that kills Dragonfly and Blue Condor (and capture Iceboy); moreover, during the battle Argento manifests new mystical powers (perhaps mutants). 


---------------------------------------------------------------------- 



 tomorrow the book review of GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #2-3 > 
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

Last edited by Tragiko on 06 Jun 2005 01:26 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 09:42 am    
By Tragiko

 < continued from previous post  


---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #2 (of 4) 

Date release: August 1996 
Publisher: Marvel Comics Italia/ Panini s.p.a. 
Artistic team: Italian/Spanish 

Cover by: Paco Diaz (pencils and inks)  from Euroforce 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

First tale: 
GEMINI #2 

Title: Seconda Chance  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Second Chance) 


[ credits] 

Story: Giorgio Lavagna & Francesco Meo 
Pencils: Fabrizio Ugolini 
Inks: Giampaolo Frizzi 
Colors: Matteo De Benedittis 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi & Marco Ficarra 


[ appearances ] 

MR.ILLUSION (first appearance, true identity not revealed) 
mutant illusionist, uses its powers working in a circus. The same one was present to the International Hospital (where the Gemini-infant were been born [in 1973]), in that same night the META-IMPULSO was manifested. Appears also in dream-flashback (first chronological appearance). [first chronological appearances (BTS) of the GEMINI members and CHILD-ONE, as infant] 

LAURA DI GIOVANNI (first appearance, died) 
appears in two pages (a dream-flashback from Mr.Illusion memories). Italian, Laura was the mother of one of the present children to the International Hospital the night that manifested the META-IMPULSO, was saved from MR.ILLUSION. Laura is died [in 1993] for a cancer to the brain. 

NOSFERATH (a.k.a. CHILD-ONE, first appearance in this identity/manifestation) 
appears in dream-flashback (from Mr.Illusion memories). An alien that was (maybe) the cause of META-IMPULSO, taken possession of the body of one of the present babies to the International Hospital (called later Child-One, taken in guard from Caine together to the other infant). 

GABRIEL CAINE/FRONT (and REVO, Fronts computer interface) 
is wanted by the authorities and the rest of the members of Gemini, like assassin of Edwin Caine. During the story is disfigured in face from a laser-shot from Lancelot 

BRANDON BLAKE/GRIP 
NICHOLAS BLAKE/SUEDE 
IMAN DASHIRE/MANDALA 
DEBORA CROVI/BALANCE 
teamed as GEMINI 

LANCELOT 
here with a new SHIELD uniform 

EUROADATTOIDE (Euroadaptoid, first appearance) 
bio-mechanic organism realized with A.I.M. technologies, a robot capable to adapting the mecha-body, can assimilate human beings to use like vital resource [No other reference to the European faction of A.I.M.]. Destroyed to the end of the fight with GEMINI 

- an italian CHILDREN 
first human assimilated from the Euroadattoide, then released by Front 

- Italian PEOPLE (Milan citizens) 
under the metropolitan of Milan, where the Euroadattoide is appeared 

DOCTOR ALMA ZARETH 
CARLO PACI 

EDWIN CAINE (LMD) 
supplied from Lancelot (SHIELD Lmd), has taken the bullet shot from Front in the previous episode 

EDWIN CAINE (human) 
still alive 

CHILD-ONE 
waked up from Doctor Alma Zareth thanks to a microchip extracted from the Euroadattoide ( in the successive episode it will be transformed in Nosferath). Appears also in flashback from Alma Zareth memories (first chronological appearance) 


[ places ] 

International hospital near Segrate (Brianza zone, in province of Milan), appears only in dream-flashback (from Mr.Illusion memories) 

Inside of the Roulotte of Mr.Illusion, in the circus where he works. 

Metropolitan of Milan (Line 3), near to the Central Station 

Base of Vera Croce (presumably in North-Italy, near Milan), connected to Euromind [= the European branch of SHIELD] 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Some hour after the end of the previous episode. Story occurs in the arc of few hours, from the Euroadaptoids attack until to the Child-One awakening [summer of 1994, presumably]. 
Mr.Illusion remembers in an incubus what happened in 1973 in the International Hospital of Segrate... something transformed the life of the babies who found themselves in the Building (first mention of the META-IMPULSO), some scientists within protecting coverallses (Edwin Caine staff) arrived who took in guard the babies (than became the members of Gemini) and an other baby much special (Child-One). Meanwile, Front and Gemini fight the Euroadattoide in the metropolitan of Milan. Front infects Euroadattoide with a virus and defeated it, but then comes hit in face from a laser-shot from Lancelot. Front escapes in the metropolitan cave. After to have revealed part of the truth on the incident to the International Hospital of 1973, the Doctor Alma Zareth goes to the Vera Croce base and uses a microchip of the A.I.M. (taken from the Euroadattoide) in order to wake up Child-One... [Publisher's notes indicate that the European section of A.I.M. is disbanded after the fall of the Berlin wall and the end of the Cold War, part of their technology can have been sold to unscrupulous terrorists] 



---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Second tale: 
EUROFORCE #2 

Title: Il Seme della Corruzione Pt.2: Principi Comuni  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Corruption Seed Pt.2: Common Principles) 


[ credits] 

Story: Xavier Marturet 
Pencils: Paco Diaz 
Inks: R. Bonet & R. Snchez 
Colors: Graphic Color Works & Annalisa Bassi 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi & Marco Ficarra 


[ appearances ] 

GEYR KLUGE/Agent KEY 
SILVIE ROUGE/NUAGE 
ANTONIO REY/PICARO 
DOLPH DONGEN/DANGER 
JANE MELVILLE/DEEP SIGHT 
ARGENTO 
TIGER 
Teamed as EUROFORCE (EUROlab + Task FORCE), first appearance as a Team 

LORDS OF WAR (Oda, Kaneda, Sakuragi) 
in flashback 

ICEBOY (died) 
in flashback 

BLUE CONDOR (died) 
in flashback 

FRANOIS BORILLON 

MEMBERS OF S.H.A.P.E. (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers in Europe, first appearance) 
is a secret organization made up of politicians and businessmen with the task to control and judge the EUROMIND acts [apparently not connected directly to SHIELD]. At least six members of S.H.A.P.E. appears in video. 

EUROMIND AGENTS 
NADIR INC. SCIENTISTS (first appearances) 


[ places ] 

Euromind Base (somewhere in Spain); Training Room; Argento suite; Borillon Office; Reunion/Operating Room; Eurolab headquarters 

Nadir Inc. Structure (in an island near west Malaysia, China Sea), Laboratory 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Some day after the end of the previous episode. Story occurs during few hours of one day [summer of 1995, presumably]. 
Key and the other members of Eurolab investigates on Nadir Inc. (involved in the mysterious mutations of humans who are happening in the world), but Borillon stops surveyings for order of S.H.A.P.E.. Meanwhile, Tiger and Argento (with his new mystical powers) join to Eurolab, that becomes EUROFORCE. S.H.A.P.E. tries also to embed Euroforce, but the team succeeds to escape to the traps and leaves the Euromind Base with an aircraft equipped on armament nuclear. 



---------------------------------------------------------------------- 



 later the book review of GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #3 > 
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

Last edited by Tragiko on 07 Jun 2005 06:19 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 02:35 pm    
By Tragiko

 < continued from previous post  


---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #3 (of 4) 

Date release: September 1996 
Publisher: Marvel Comics Italia/ Panini s.p.a. 
Artistic team: Italian/Spanish 

Cover by: Fabrizio Ugolini (pencils) / Giampaolo Frizzi (inks)  from Gemini 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

First tale: 
GEMINI #3 

Title: Terza Posizione  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Third Position) 


[ credits] 

Story: Giorgio Lavagna & Francesco Meo 
Pencils: Fabrizio Ugolini 
Inks: Giampaolo Frizzi 
Colors: Matteo De Benedittis & Roberto Calabr 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi & Marco Ficarra 


[ appearances ] 

VOYAGER (first appearance, true identity not revealed) 
An alien entity, from an unknown planet external to our solar system; arrives on the earth in order to capture the Nosferath. 

VANDALIA (first appearance) 
a group of three criminals (apparently powerless), with a punk-look and equipped with advanced weapons 

GABRIEL CAINE/FRONT (and REVO, Fronts computer interface) 
appears with a new golden, reconstructed face (by Revo) in order to eliminate the scars 

BRANDON BLAKE/GRIP 
NICHOLAS BLAKE/SUEDE 
IMAN DASHIRE/MANDALA 
DEBORA CROVI/BALANCE 
teamed as GEMINI 

CARLO PACI 
EUROMIND AGENTS and SECURITY AGENTS (of Vera Croce Base) 
MR.ILLUSION 

- Italian PEOPLE 
spectators to the show of Mr.Illusion in the circus; four of these will return to the circus in order to beat up Mr. Illusion 

ITALIAN ARMY SOLDIERS 
appears in flashback (from a Video-CD titled Child One, found from Front in the military base of Monfalcone [in "Gemini #1"]), around and within the International Hospital [year 1973] were the META-IMPULSO was manifested. 

EDWIN CAINE 
appears in flashback (from a Video-CD titled Child One, found from Front in the military base of Monfalcone [in "Gemini #1"]); this is Edwin Caine first chronological appearance 

DOCTORS and PATIENTS MUTATES 
appears in flashback (from a Video-CD titled Child One, found from Front in the military base of Monfalcone [in "Gemini #1"]), around and within the International Hospital [year 1973] were the META-IMPULSO was manifested. Also appears the infant in the cribs, that would be become the members of GEMINI team [BTS appearances], and others infant (one of this became Child-One). 

NOSFERATH (a.k.a. CHILD-ONE) 
an alien entity, waked up from Doctor Alma Zareth thanks to a microchip extracted from the Euroadattoide; the alien had assumed the identity of one of the infant present in International Hospital [in 1973, when presumably his arrived on the earth] and had caused the META-IMPULSO; now has transformed Doctor Zareth in ALMA MATRIX 

ALMA MATRIX (a.k.a. DOCTOR ALMA ZARETH, first appearance in this identity/manifestation) 
transformed by NOSFERATH (ex Child-One), Zareth now has become allied of the alien and its servant, betraying Edwin Caine and Gemini 

LANCELOT 
here with a spacesuit 

TWO MAFIA SICILIANS (one of this called Santino, first appearances) 
appears while are in order to execute a mafia homicide 

a SICILIAN GUY (killed by Mafia) 
son of a Sicilian judge, condemned from the Mafia for vendetta 



[ places ] 

Milan, in front of Piazza Duomo (cathedral of Milan) 

Base of Vera Croce, launched in the space 

Circus in which Mr. Illusion works (somewhere in North-Italy) 

Cemetary (somewhere in North-Italy), where LAURA DI GIOVANNI [BTS] is buried 

International hospital near Segrate (Brianza zone, in province of Milan), appears only in flashback (from Doctor Alma Zareth memories) 

West Sicily (South-Italy), a place on the coast near city of Trapani 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Some day after the end of the previous episode. Story occurs in the arc of few days, from the Vandalia appearance in Milan until to the murder of Sicilian guy [summer of 1994, presumably]. 
A mysterious extraterrestrial entity called Voyager is approached the Earth and seems to be interested to the presence of Nosferath on our planet. Meanwhile, in Milan appears a group of so-called criminals named Vandalia that fight against Gemini. Days after, Front goes from the journalist Carlo Paci in order to deliver a Video-CD containing the truth on the incident at the International Hospital of Segrate [in 1973]. The Vera Croce Base is mysteriously launched in the space and the members of Gemini are attacked from the Agents of Euromind (mentally controlled from the Nosferath). Front and Paci go to find Mr. Illusion for having other details on the night in which META-IMPULSO was manifested. Mr. Illusion leads Front and Paci to the cemetary where Laura di Giovanni has been buried [in 1993]. Meanwhile, Gemini discovers that Child-One/Nosferath has been waked and Zareth has been transformed in Alma Matrix to the outside of the base (launched in the space), Lancelot tries desperately to return on the Earth. 



---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Second tale: 
EUROFORCE #3 

Title: Il Seme della Corruzione Pt.3: Nel Cuore della Bestia  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Corruption Seed Pt.3: In the Heart of the Beast) 


[ credits] 

Story: Xavier Marturet 
Pencils: Paco Diaz 
Inks: R. Bonet & R. Snchez & E. Altarriba 
Colors: Graphic Color Works & Annalisa Bassi 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi & Marco Ficarra 


[ appearances ] 

GEYR KLUGE/Agent KEY 
SILVIE ROUGE/NUAGE 
ANTONIO REY/PICARO 
DOLPH DONGEN/DANGER 
JANE MELVILLE/DEEP SIGHT 
ARGENTO 
TIGER 
Teamed as EUROFORCE 

AGENTS OF A.I.M. 
engages from the Nadir Inc. (as security corpse) and pertaining to the Asian section of the A.I.M. (perhaps); the uniforms are not yellow (as of usual) but gray-violet [an agent make reference to his previous jobs for Modok/Modam and Scientist Supreme] 

MEMBERS OF S.H.A.P.E. (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers in Europe) 
at least nine members of S.H.A.P.E. appears in video (connected from various countries of the planet) 

FRANOIS BORILLON 

AGENT SALOM (first appearance) 
female, expert of video-communication and computer science, personal assistant of Borillon 

LORDS OF WAR (Oda, Kaneda, Sakuragi) 
during the fight against Gemini they upgrade their armors in order from battle 

Mutate ICEBOY (first appearance in this incarnation) 
appears within a full cylinder of liquid; subordinate from the scientists of the Nadir Inc. to experiments of mutation that have upgraded its body 

EUROMIND AGENTS 
In flashback 



[ places ] 

Euromind Base (somewhere in Spain); Borillon Office; Communication Room 

Nadir Inc. Structure (in an island near west Malaysia, China Sea), Laboratory 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Some hour after the end of the previous episode. Story occurs during few hours of one day [summer of 1995, presumably]. 
Euroforce arrives in Malaysia, in order to investigate on the Nadir Inc., meanwhile in Spain Borillon discovers (with the aid of Salom Agent) that the S.H.A.P.E. it has tried to embed Key and the other members of Eurolab/Task Force. Nuage, Argento, Danger, Deep Sight and Picaro fight newly against the Lords of War; Key and Tiger instead discover that Iceboy is alive, but have been mutated from the scientists of the Nadir 



---------------------------------------------------------------------- 



 tomorrow the book review of GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #4 > 
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

Last edited by Tragiko on 07 Jun 2005 06:43 am; edited 3 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 04:42 pm    
By Tragiko

 < continued from previous post  


---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #4 (of 4) 

Date release: October 1996 
Publisher: Marvel Comics Italia/ Panini s.p.a. 
Artistic team: Italian/Spanish 

Cover by: Paco Diaz (pencils and inks)  from Euroforce 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

First tale: 
GEMINI #4 

Title: Quarto Potere  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Fourth Power) 


[ credits] 

Story: Giorgio Lavagna & Francesco Meo 
Pencils: Fabrizio Ugolini 
Inks: Giampaolo Frizzi 
Colors: Matteo De Benedittis 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi & Marco Ficarra 


[ appearances ] 

LANCELOT 
initially in the space with a spacesuit, later with a SHIELD uniform 

IRON MAN (alias Tony Stark) 
it appears in the first part of the history (not like Avenger), in the same armor worn in Gemini #1; it uses an aircraft of the Stark Enterprises in order to trace Front 

NOSFERATH/CHILD-ONE 
an alien entity in the body of an infant, appears encircled from a phosphorescent glow and able to control Alma Zareth mentally; during the story manifest its true monstrous aspect in order to fight against Gemini 

ALMA MATRIX/DOCTOR ALMA ZARETH (killed) 
possessed mentally from Nosferath; Alma Matrix will come killed from the alien (absorbed in order to supply vital energy) during the history 

EDWIN CAINE (killed) 
prisoner of Nosferath; accidentally killed during the fight (apparently) 

BRANDON BLAKE/GRIP 
NICHOLAS BLAKE/SUEDE 
IMAN DASHIRE/MANDALA 
DEBORA CROVI/BALANCE 
teamed as GEMINI - initially captive of Nosferath, then freed from Front 

GABRIEL CAINE/FRONT (and REVO, Fronts computer interface) 
is convinced from Iron Man to join to Lancelot in order to save Gemini and Edwin Caine 

CARLO PACI 

MR.ILLUSION 

VOYAGER (first appearance, true identity not revealed) 
it arrives on Vera Croce base (launched in space in the previous episode) in order to capture Nosferath; imprisons the vital essence of Child-One within an energetic stick (it has the order to bring back the alien on its planet for being imprisoned) 

ITALIAN ARMY SOLDIERS and DOCTORS 
they arrive in order to help and to cure Gemini (injured) and the survivors of the Vera Croce Base (brought back on the Earth, perhaps from Voyager), to the end of the story 



[ places ] 

Milan, in front of Piazza Duomo (cathedral of Milan) 

Base of Vera Croce, launched in the space 

Circus in which Mr. Illusion works (somewhere in North-Italy) 

International hospital near Segrate (Brianza zone, in province of Milan), appears only in flashback (from Doctor Alma Zareth memories) 

West Sicily (South-Italy), a place on the coast near city of Trapani 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Immediately following the end of the previous episode. Story occurs in the arc of few days, from the Iron Man appearance until the defeat of Nosferath and the return of the Vera Croce Base on the Earth [summer of 1994, presumably]. 
Iron Man saves Lancelot that was escaped from the Base and rambled in the space without salvation hope. The Golden Avenger leads the agent of the SHIELD in its aircraft (of the Stark Enterprises) and being connected to the computer of the shuttle it traces the place where Front is found. In the meantime on Vera Croce Base (in orbit in the space), Alma Matrix tells to the members of Gemini the truth on the origin of their power (the night in which the META-IMPULSO in the International Hospital of Segrate was manifested); Nosferath (sheltered in the body of one of the babies) was taken in guard from Edwin Caine, together to the other children (that they would have become the members of Gemini)... from then Child-One it was hidden to the eyes of the world (and closed in a protecting bubble in order to prevent to the baby to grow), while the rest of Gemini began to manifest the mutant powers receipts thanks to the mysterious META-IMPULSO. Iron Man cannot help Front and Lancelot in order to not transgress the international agreements between USA and Italy, accompanies the two heroes on the Base in the space (with its aircraft) and then it returns presumablly in America. Iron Man chronological appearance would have to be placed between IRON MAN #306 (Vol.1) and #307 [july-august 1994], and after his previous apparition [in Gemini #1]. Front releases his companions of Gemini, while Child-One kills Alma Matrix (in order to absorb its vital energy) and transforms itself in Nosferath (a great alien-demon). But Voyager arrives also, that imprisons Nosferath within an energy stick... Caine instead remains killed during the fight (does not look at when this happens). Voyager decides not to kill the other human presents on the Base and before to leave transports Vera Croce on the Earth (then disappears). Epilogue: the aids arrive in order to take cure of the wounded, while journalist Carlo Paci observes on TV which is happened (and has in hand a Video-CD containing the truth on Gemini and the secrets of Caine). 



---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Second tale: 
EUROFORCE #4 

Title: Il Seme della Corruzione Pt.4: Caso Chiuso  22 pgs. 
(in english, perhaps translated in Corruption Seed Pt.4: Closed Case) 


[ credits] 

Story: Xavier Marturet 
Pencils: Paco Diaz 
Inks: R. Bonet & R. Snchez & E. Altarriba 
Colors: Graphic Color Works & Annalisa Bassi 
Lettering: Andrea Accardi & Marco Ficarra 


[ appearances ] 

GEYR KLUGE/Agent KEY 
SILVIE ROUGE/NUAGE 
ANTONIO REY/PICARO 
DOLPH DONGEN/DANGER 
JANE MELVILLE/DEEP SIGHT 
ARGENTO 
TIGER 
Teamed as EUROFORCE 

LORDS OF WAR (Oda, Kaneda, Sakuragi) 

AGENTS OF A.I.M. 

MEMBERS OF S.H.A.P.E. (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers in Europe) 
at least two members of S.H.A.P.E., they appear in video-connection with Borillon 

FRANOIS BORILLON 

Mutate ICEBOY (dies) 
dies during the story, little after to have been freed; appears also in flashback (when he was in the SHIELD, first chronological appearance) together to Agent Dum Dum Dugan 

Agent DUM DUM DUGAN (alias Timothy Aloysius Cadwallader Dugan) 
Agent of SHIELD, appears in flashback together with Iceboy (when he was in the SHIELD, before 1994) 

DRAGONFLY 
In flashback 

others MUTATED HUMANS (first appearances, die) 
other guinea-pigs of the Nadir Inc., they die in the same way of Iceboy 



[ places ] 

Nadir Inc. Structure (in an island near west Malaysia, China Sea), Laboratory 

Euromind Base (somewhere in Spain); Borillon Office; Communication Room 

Secret Location, somewhere in Spain (probably); the new Euroforce Base chosen from Borillon. 



[ synopsis and temporal/chronological references ] 

Immediately following the end of the previous episode. Story occurs in the arc of few days, from the fight with the Lords of War until the Euroforce accomodation to their new base [summer of 1995, presumably]. 
Euroforce fight and defeats the Lords of War, while Key and Tiger try to save the life of Iceboy (mutated from the scientists of the Nadir)... some agents of the A.I.M. make irruption in the laboratory and accidentally they provoke the breach of the cylinder in which Iceboy was found. The exposure anticipated to the air provokes the dead of Iceboy and the other humans changed from the Nadir. Euroforce escapes from the island while Borillon contrives a plan in order to make to believe to the S.H.A.P.E. that the members of the group are died during the mission. Epilogue: Key and the other members of Euroforce have taken place in their new secret dwelling and enjoy the deserved rest, in attended of fantastic new adventures... 



---------------------------------------------------------------------- 



 tomorrow, the chronological details of the Characters appearances (in MCP style) 
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2005 07:15 am    
By Tragiko

GEMINI/EUROFORCE: EUROPA #0-4 

Character Chronologies (details) 
-------------------------------------------------------------- 


[ GEMINI ] 

Agent LANCELOT 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 

EDWIN CAINE 
EUR 3/1-FB 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 4/1 (deceased?) 

EDWIN CAINE LMD 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 2/1 (deactivated) 

Doctor ALMA ZARETH 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 3/1 (in the ALMA MATRIX identity) 
EUR 4/1 (in the ALMA MATRIX identity, deceased) 

FRONT/GABRIEL CAINE (and REVO) 
EUR 2/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 3/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 

GRIP/BRANDON BLAKE 
EUR 2/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 3/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 

SUEDE/NICHOLAS BLAKE 
EUR 2/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 3/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 

MANDALA/IMAN DASHIRE 
EUR 2/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 3/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 

BALANCE/DEBORA CROVI 
EUR 2/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 3/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 

CHILD-ONE 
EUR 2/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 3/1-FB/BTS (as infant) 
EUR 0/1 
EUR 2/1 (also in the NOSFERATH identity) 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 (also in the NOSFERATH identity) 

MAINMAN/CLYDE MCCOY 
EUR 1/1-FB (deceased) 

IRON MAN/ANTHONY STARK 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 4/1 

CARLO PACI 
EUR 1/1 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 

ALBA NERA (terrorist group) 
EUR 1/1 

MR. ILLUSION 
EUR 2/1-FB 
EUR 2/1 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 

LAURA DI GIOVANNI 
EUR 2/1-FB 
EUR 3/1-BTS (deceased) 

EUROADATTOIDE/EUROADAPTOID 
EUR 2/1 (destroyed) 

VOYAGER 
EUR 3/1 
EUR 4/1 

VANDALIA (criminals group) 
EUR 3/1 

-------------------------------------------------------------- 


[ EUROFORCE ] 

Agent KEY/GEYR KLUGE 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 
EUR 2/2 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

NUAGE/SILVIE ROUGE 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 
EUR 2/2 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

PICARO/ANTONIO REY 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 
EUR 2/2 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

DANGER/DOLPH DONGEN 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 
EUR 2/2 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

DEEP SIGHT/JANE MELVILLE 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 
EUR 2/2 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

FRANOIS BORILLON 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 2/2 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

DRAGONFLY 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 (deceased) 

BLUE CONDOR 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 2/2-FB 
EUR 4/2-FB 
EUR 1/2 (deceased) 

ICEBOY 
EUR 4/2-FB 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 2/2-FB 
EUR 4/2-FB 
EUR 1/2 
EUR 3/2 (mutated) 
EUR 4/2 (mutated, deceased) 

TIGER 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 
EUR 2/2 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

ALEX ARGENTO/ARGENTO 
EUR 0/2 
EUR 1/2 
EUR 2/2 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

MOLOIDS/SUBTERRANEANS 
EUR 0/2 

SKRULLS 
EUR 0/2-BTS 

LORDS OF WAR (ODA/KANEDA/SAKURAGI) 
EUR 1/2 
EUR 2/2-FB 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

S.H.A.P.E. (secret Organization) 
EUR 2/2 (some members) 
EUR 3/2 (some members) 
EUR 4/2 (some members) 

A.I.M./AGENTS 
EUR 3/2 
EUR 4/2 

Agent SALOM 
EUR 3/2 

Agent DUM DUM DUGAN/TIMOTHY ALOYSIUS CADWALLADER DUGAN 
EUR 4/2-FB 

------------------------------------------------- 


Well, finally I have ended (than hard work!). I hope of to have been useful. bye.
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

Last edited by Tragiko on 07 Jun 2005 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2005 10:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Thanks, Tragiko - this has been a tough series to nail down, so you've done us a real favour by writing it up for us!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 53

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 01:24 pm    Post subject: TrashMasters For NYC School Kids Grades 4 To 6 no.1
By Jason Doty

TrashMasters For NYC School Kids Grades 4 To 6 no. 1 (2001, 25 pgs. Handed out in NYC public schools from the Department of Sanitation) 

First Story: RRROCKN"RRROLL!!! 

The West Elementry Fair is going to be cancled because of the previous years excessive waste. A group of kids calling themselves the TrashMasters decide they must do something so the annual fair won't be cancled. With the help of the custodian they come with a Recycle, Reuse, and Reduce theme they save the day and the fair goes on, and one of the members gets "NSTYNC" to perform. 

Ms. Rush (West Side Elementry Principal) 
TrashMasters (Nick, Henry, Stuff, Franny, and Shirley) 
Russell Reginald Riley A.K.A Rusty 

Second Story: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle... Repaint?! 
One of the TrashMasters, Nick is hanging out with his friends from his old school, Greenfield Elementry. Those friend spraypaint his school talking about his new friends are trash geeks. Nick not knowing what to do, asks Rusty the janitor for advice. He feels guilty. The next day he is confronted by the principal who tells him that he should convince his friends not to do those bad things. He gets his friends to visit the janitor who uses a time machine to take the kids back in time to see what it looked like in the 70's. Discusted the kids change their ways and clean up their spray paint mess. 

Characters: 
Ms. Rush (West Side Elementry Principal) 
TrashMasters (Nick, Henry, Stuff, Franny, and Shirley) 
Russell Reginald Riley A.K.A Rusty 
4 kids from Greenfield Elementry 

Note: This comic is set in the Marvel Universe. It could be placed anywhere in the 2001 school year. 
The reason I have it because there is a one page add(comic, 1 pg.) where Storm and Wolverine help Stuff and Franny clean up outside the X-Men Mansion, and talking about a clean up contest. 

Characters: 
Storm, wearing Adam Kubert era uniform 
Wolverine, Yellow costume, metal claws 
Stuff 
Franny 

Another one page add shows the kids viewing Spider-Man on their school wall telling kids that being a TrashMaster makes them heroes. 

Characters: 
Spider-Man 
TrashMasters (Nick, Franny, Shirley, Stuff, and Henry)

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 04:31 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Are the X-Men talking about a clean-up contest that was held in the real world? Our world? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 07:11 pm    
By Jason Doty

Good catch Jeph! I was'nt thinking of it like that. I did'nt take it as them breaking the "fourth" wall or what ever you all call it. The kids are asking Storm what they can do to help. Then the boxes or captions read how to enter a contest. The only reason I included these was that they are set up more like a comic page rather than an add. Re looking at it though, (This is hypothetical) cound'nt there be a similar Marvel Universe contest? 

I'm not talking about the boxes that tell you how to get involved but the page itself. 

I know this is a crazy stretch, but I'm just trying to be thurough. 

On another note, if a character acknowlages a real world product, could that also knock it out? So far the closest I've come is the X-Men went to the State Fair of Texas (an actual event) and there was a Doritos truck in the background of Son of Canada. 

Just some questions, so I don't look like a complete wack job trying to include any and everything.

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 07:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Characters can acknowledge real-world products -- they've done so on many, many occasions. 

On the other hand, characters can also appear in non-canon ads -- the Hostess spots from the 80s come to mind. 

And although my inclination is that this isn't a canon MU conversation so much as an ad -- I'd be more inclined to think that the page *might* be canon, if the same issue didn't feature a janitor who owned a time machine. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 09:01 pm
By Jason Doty

The Janitor explains the plight of the 70's and garbage and the scene could be viewed as the kids imagination. The time machine could be a metaphor. Anybody else have this one?

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 06:10 am    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, you'd better clarify the scene for us. If the time machine is a metaphor, why did you describe it like this?: 

Quote: 
>>>
He gets his friends to visit the janitor who uses a time machine to take the kids back in time to see what it looked like in the 70's. 
<<<

Do we actually see a time machine on-panel? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 11:53 am    
By Jason Doty

Yes we do, It is explained as a time recycler invented by Rusty the Janitor. Sorry about the metaphor thing, definatly a time travel device.

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 04:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm leaning towards "non-canon" here ... based mainly on the advert-like nature of the X-Men appearance ... but what's the Spider-Man page all about? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 07:33 pm 
By Jason Doty

I can understand the advertisement not fitting the criteria, but it is a Marvel Comic placed in the Marvel Universe. One of the kids thinks about being a hero and in his thoughts we see several Marvel Universe characters. 

Just to show I'm not simply doing this for the X-Men characters. I'll also take a stand on this comic, stating that even though I did not like this comic, story or art, that it could and should be considered for review. 

Jeph! shoot me an e-mail of what you need that I posted this week for your review.

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Thread 54

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 10:37 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man, Storm, and Power Man (or Cage), you decide?
By Jason Doty

Spider-Man, Storm, and Power Man (1982, 15 pgs., giveaway for schools in cooperation with the American Cancer Society) 

Story Smoke Screen 

Power Man is coaching an all-city track team in his free time. Peter Parker is covering the event. One of the star atheletes is performing poorly and asks Peter Parker not to mention this untill he can investigate. Luke follows the young man and his new girl friend. He discovers that they have both been hanging out at a Social Club and smoking. While spying Spider-Man shows up. The two are almost discovered, but Cage says he must do something. Spider-Man says that he is too well known to be able to follow them and introduces him to Storm. Storm follows the two kids from the air while Power Man looks into what has been going on. Storm follows some of the Club members to their boss and Storm investigates. She is discovered and knocked unconcous by the villinous Smoke Screen. 

Smoke Screen's plan is to get the young athelete smoking so he'll lose the race making Smoke Screen rich and take over the lucrative mob sports betting operation. His underlings are told to have the kid throw the race, but he refuses. He is saved by Spider-Man and Power Man, who then go searching for Storm. Storm wakes up in a room and escapes, knowing the location of the villian. Meanwhile, the athelete swears off smoking and hanging out. Storm finds Spider-Man and Power Man and the three take down Smoke Screen. The athelete still looses the race, but has learned a valuble lesson. 

Note: This story can work but must be placed prior to UX 122 because it shows the first meeting of Power Man and Storm. 

Characters: 
Power Man/ Luke Cage 
Spider-Man 
Storm 
Bret Jackson 
Carol Hunter 
Several friends of Bret's including Danny 
Several thugs including Jake 
a teacher 
a school secretary 
Smoke Screen 

This sucks but I just reviewed Spider-Man, Storm & Cage (1998) 

Note: It is the exact same dialog, but with updated art. The only difference is that Cage knows Storm, they are not introduced. The characters are drawn as their more modern selves (circa 1998). Either can work, but not both. This will be a pick the one you prefer giveaway.

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 06:12 am    
By jephyork
Director

The original always trumps the retelling, Jason. Even if they both use almost the same script -- the 1982 version is the "correct" one. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 06:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This story is timed shortly before a high school's summer vacation. I've placed the story in early June, right after Peter Parker's first year of graduate school. I have Spidey here between M/TU 107 and the end of ASM 218. I have Storm here between pages of A@ 10. I'm not sure about calendar placement of Power Man stories, so I don't know exactly where this comic would fall in his chronology.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 06:45 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

By my notes, that would place it on Cage's chronology immediately after Power Man and Iron Fist #72.

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 04:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I split the general discussion about the canonicity of giveaway books into its own thread, to allow this thread to be about analysis of this specific comic. Look for the new thread in the main MU Forum. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 55

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 01:03 pm    Post subject: TALES TO ASTONISH 95/2 - 101 (Hulk stories)
By shandrakor

Well, my capacity to slack off on even my hobbies knows few bounds, but I'm finally done with the TTA Hulk stories. 

Next up: Early Subby! 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #95/2 (1-10) 
Shortly after TTA 94/2 (1-10). The High Evolutionary tries to radio Sir Ram and warn him of a cosmic storm theyre about to fly into. Hulk cant figure out the radio, so he smashes it. Hulk brings Sir Ram to the controls, and Ram manages to turn away from the storm, but they still fly too close. Ram appears to die and Hulk changes to Banner, who assumes that Hulk must have killed Ram. The ship lands on Wundagore II, where the High Evolutionary stuns him and straps him down to the evolving machine. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 
*RAM, SIR 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #96/2 (1-6p2) 
Immediately following TTA 95/2 (1-10). The crazed Knights of Wundagore finally break into the High Evolutionarys laboratory. Frustrated that Banner refuses to become Hulk and protect him, the Evolutionary draws a sword and goes into battle personally. Banner is attacked as well, finally transforming, but not before the Evolutionary is badly wounded. 
Characters: 
*Knights of Wundagore 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #96/2 (6p3-10) ~ WEST COAST AVENGERS ANNUAL #3/3 (5-6) 
Immediately following TTA 96/2 (1-6). Panels are not reproduced exactly in WCA@ 3/3, but the story is told with no significant deviation. As Hulk battles the Knights of Wundagore, the wounded Evolutionary removes his armor, climbs onto the evolution machine and activates it. He becomes a godlike energy being. He transforms the Knights back into animals, transports Hulk back to Earth, wipes Hulks memory of the incident, and then heads out into space. 
Characters: 
*Knights of Wundagore 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #97/2 (1-9p4) 
One day, sometime after TTA 96/2 (1-10). Hulk accidentally bounds into a low-flying jet, causing it to crash. He rescues the pilot, who demands to be taken to a group called the Living Lightning. Elsewhere, Rick Jones is checking in with the Teen Brigade, which again cant find Hulk. Front page headlines read Hulk Still Missing. General Ross orders Talbot to abandon the search for Hulk and concentrate on tracking down the Living Lightning. Back at the Legion of the Living Lightnings base, Hulk is defeated by their security system and brought before the Lord of the Lightning. The Lightning Lord acts friendly, explains that they are striving to end war, and asks Hulk to aid their cause. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*Lord of the Lightning 

TALES TO ASTONISH #97/2 (9p5-10) 
One day. It was already evening when Ross gave Talbot the new orders, so this is probably a day or two after TTA 97/2 (1-9). The three outside panels here show it as night, but seconds later in TTA 98/2, it will be daylight for a full issue. The panels here can either be considered an art mistake, or just barely predawn. Major Talbot has located the Legion of the Living Lightnings headquarters, but is caught by a sentry. He is brought before the Lord, and sees Hulk, who he (of course) declares a spy and traitor. The Lord of the Lightning convinces Hulk that the army is going to attack them all now, and sends Hulk out to destroy the base. 
Characters: 
TALBOT, GLENN 
*Lord of the Lightning 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

Note: Betty is not in this issue, only a picture of her. 

Note: The only connection between this group and the character called Living Lightning is that Miguel Santos got his powers by fiddling with the Legions security system. 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #98/2 (2-10) 
Immediately following TTA 97/2 (9-10). Hulk attacks the base, while the Legion follows close behind in a jet, with Talbot as their hostage. The army manages to gas Hulk unconscious, but the Legion slips in behind their lines and takes over the missile base. Betty, General Ross and the unconscious Hulk are all taken prisoner. 
Characters: 
*Lord of the Lightning 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
TALBOT, GLENN 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #99 (1-11) 
Immediately following TTA 98/2 (2-10). The Lord of the Lightning threatens to let Hulk kill Betty unless General Ross officially surrenders the missile base in a national broadcast, but Hulk refuses to hurt Betty and rebels. The Legions lightning guns turn Hulk into Banner, and he is taken back prisoner. Talbot overpowers his own guard and frees everyone. Remembering that the Legion had missiles back at their base, Banner uses a gamma-ray machine to again become Hulk, who trashes the Legions base and blowing up half the mountain while still trapped inside. 
Characters: 
*Lord of the Lightning 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #100 (1-2p2) 
Concurrent with the end of TTA 99 (1-11), sometime after TTA 99/2 (1-11). Namor is watching the surface through a computo-viewer, and happens to see Hulk being buried in the explosion. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 

TALES TO ASTONISH #100 (2p3-22) 
Hours after TTA 100 (1-2), newspaper headline reads Hulk buried under landslide, so it must be the next day. Namor is attacked by sailors controlled by the Puppet Master. Remembering the newspaper article about Hulk, Puppet Master creates a puppet of Hulk and commands him to get free and kill Namor. Hulk lashes out at Rick Jones, again setting Ross and Talbot against him. Hulk and Namor fight. Rick is taken to the hospital, where Betty learns that Hulk is even attacking his friends now. Hulk and Namor continue to fight, accidentally destroying Puppet Masters hideout in the process. Hulk reverts to Banner, and Namor leaves, assuming him defeated. The Florida beach has people in shorts and t-shirts, windsurfers and people in bathing suits. If its not summer, its at least tourist season. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
PUPPET MASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE RICK 
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. THUNDERBOLT 
TALBOT, GLENN 
BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #101 (1-11) 
The same day as, shortly after TTA 100 (2-22). Banner begins to regain consciousness, when Loki forces him to become Hulk and then transports him to Asgard. Hulk defeats Heimdall, and travels up the Rainbow Bridge. Loki intends to use him to start chaos, distracting Odin from a crisis involving Thor, thus allowing Thor to be killed. Hulk picks fights with Hogun, then Fandral and Volstagg, and finally with all the Asgardian warriors. They quickly declare a truce, and Loki, disgusted that Hulk has failed him, turns him back to Banner just in time to fall down a crevasse. 
Characters: 
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
LOKI [ASGARDIAN] 
HEIMDALL [ASGARDIAN] 
ODIN [ASGARDIAN] 
HOGUN [ASGARDIAN] 
FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN] 
VOLSTAGG 

Note: Destiny/Paul Destine is incorrectly credited with appearing here. He is in the Namor story in TTA 101/2. 

Note: I confess to being fairly unfamiliar with Thor characters, but is there a reason why Volstagg is not credited as being an Asgardian? 

----- 

Corrected Chronologies: 

RAM, SIR 
**WCA@ 3/3-BTS 
**{TTA 94/2} 
**TTA 95/2 
QS 7-FB 
**XCAL 113 
QS 1 
QS 2 

BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
TTA 91/2 
TTA 92/2 
** 
TTA 98/2 
TTA 99 
TTA 100 

Lord of the Lightning 
**TTA 97/2 
**TTA 98/2 
**TTA 99 

DESTINY/PAUL DESTINE 
**TTA 101/2 
IM&SM 1/2 
SUB-M 1 
SUB-M 6 
SUB-M 7

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Thread 56

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 05:47 pm    Post subject: CFA: BP3 44
By ADMINISTRATOR

If anyone's of a mind to, I'd appreciate an anlysis of BP3 44. 


watching: fox news live

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Thread 57

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 04:06 pm    Post subject: Exiles #46-48
By jephyork
Director

These damned things always take way longer to do than I expect. I tried to keep things simple this time out, opting to describe all three issues at once. 

Exiles #46-48 
"Earn Your Wings" 

Quick synopsis: the Exiles jump to Earth-616, and are given a new member  Namora  and a riddle-like mission: "leave your possessions and earn your wings". Namora rebels and seeks out Namor for aid, who brings her to the Fantastic Four and imprisons her  and the Exiles, unsure of how to decipher their mission, drop by Xaviers mansion and run into Beak. The Tallus then informs them that they must rescue Namora, and when they arrive at the Baxter Building  Beak in tow  the usual hero-misunderstanding fight breaks out. Eventually order is restored, and Mr. Fantastic deduces that the Exiles mission is to leave Nocturne behind and take Beak with them  a deduction confirmed by the Timebroker. The next morning, Beak and the Exiles blink away, leaving a tearful Nocturne behind  who, before she can get to the X-Mansion, is approached by a mysterious figure about joining a *different* team 


Temporal references: This story takes place over two days, and breaks down as follows: 

EXILES #46  daytime, day 1. Blue skies with some clouds, green grass and trees. 

EXILES #47, 48 pp.1-16  night  all probably after midnight (more below). Some clouds, no moon shown. Sky alternately colored black or purple-blue (sunset/sunrise colors)  probably to compensate for artist not coloring the background black in some panels. 

EXILES #48 pp.17-22  morning of day 2. Rising sun with some clouds. 

On Exiles #48 p.16, Beak demands that Blink take him back to Xaviers "now". On the next page, theyre at Xaviers and the sun is coming up. Theyve been there for a little while by that page, but I still take the scene to mean that the entirety of the fight with the FF likely occurred, at the latest, an hour or two before sunrise  and therefore after midnight. Since its still daytime on the final page of EXILES #46, the midnight break should occur between #46 and #47. 

EXILES #47 pp.1, 3-7, and 12 contain flashbacks to Namoras past, which I imagine are irrelevant in terms of Pauls calendar project, as they occur in Namoras home universe. However, #46 contains an Earth-616 flashback (p.1 panel 1) to the destruction of the Xavier Institute  which a narrative caption describes as "weeks ago". 

This flashback, Xorneto hovering and facing the X-Mansion as the top floor explodes and begins to burn, should occur right before the X #147-FB (pp.20-21) where we see him triumphantly floating away from a fully burning building  which, along with X #147-FB (pp.2-3), occurs between X #146-147. The correct order should be: 

X 146 
EXILES 46-FB 
X 147-FB (20-21) 
X 147-FB (2-3) 
X 147 

In other temporal clues, the Statue of Liberty is fully repaired and the Exiles comment that, aside from an absent Twin Towers, New York City looks normal  which indicates that we should place EXILES #46-48 after the rebuilding of Manhattan and partial rebuilding of the mansion shown at the end of XX #46. The Xavier Institute is still being rebuilt in EXILES #46-48, though (although the art incorrectly depicts the rebuilt portion as resembling the old mansion)  so we shouldnt place it too far after XX #46. 

The X-Men all appear in their Morrison/late-Austen-era outfits (Juggernaut is in his gray and gold suit), and the FF appear in what appears to be their Weiringo outfits  thick black necks, black boots, gloves and belts, and raised "4"s with a seamline down the front of the outfits. Thats not much placement help, but at least its consistent. 


Appearances: 

EXILES #46: 

Blink (AoA/Exiles) 
Morph (Exiles) 
Mimic (Exiles) 
Sasquatch (Exiles) 
Namora (Exiles) 
Nocturne 

Nightcrawler 
Beast 
Juggernaut 
Beak 
Angel Salvadore 
Angels kids (six shown. The beak-faced one is named in #48 as Tito  full name presumably Tito Bohusk.) 
the White Queen, BTS (one of the Exiles comments that they saw her at the construction site.) 

Namor 
Mr. Fantastic 
the Invisible Woman 
the Human Torch (both seen on a small monitor as Mr. Fantastic calls them to his lab.) 
the Thing, BTS? (not seen on the monitor, but Mr. Fantastic was summoning him at the same time as the other two.) 

"The Timebroker" also appears, BTS, briefing Namora just before sending her to the Exiles  but EXILES #62-65 show that the Timebroker isnt one single entity, but sort of a holographic mask used by any of the bugs running the Exiles operation. 

EXILES #46-FB: 

"Xorneto" (as far as I know, were still unsure if this is Kuan-Yin Xorn masquerading as Magneto, or some third party masquerading as both of them.) 


EXILES #47: 

Blink (AoA/Exiles) 
Morph (Exiles) 
Mimic (Exiles) 
Sasquatch (Exiles) 
Namora (Exiles) 
Nocturne 

Beak 

Namor 
Mr. Fantastic 
the Invisible Woman 
the Human Torch 
the Thing 

EXILES #47-FB (p.1): 

Namora (Exiles) 
alternate-universe counterparts of the Fantastic Four 

EXILES #47-FB (pp.3-7): 

Namora (Exiles) 
alternate-universe counterparts of Attuma, Dorma, Prof. X, the original X-Men, Magneto, Mr. Fantastic and (BTS) the Avengers 

EXILES #47-FB (p.12): 

Namora (Exiles) 
alternate-universe counterparts of Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, the Scarlet Witch and the Fantastic Four 


EXILES #48: 

Blink (AoA/Exiles) 
Morph (Exiles) 
Mimic (Exiles) 
Sasquatch (Exiles) 
Namora (Exiles) 
Nocturne 
Beak 

Namor 
Mr. Fantastic 
the Invisible Woman 
the Human Torch 
the Thing 

the Beast 
Northstar 
Nightcrawler 
Angel Salvadore 
Angels kids (five shown. The beak-faced one is named here as Tito  full name presumably Tito Bohusk.) 

Exodus (in shadow, but in X #161 he claims to have been the one who recruited Nocturne into the Brotherhood.) 

"the Timebroker" (but, again, later issues reveal that hes not a single entity.) 


Notes: 

Namoras flashbacks are presented out of order. The FB on pp.3-7 shows her childhood rise to power, and friendship with Prof. X, and the rise of anti-mutant hysteria on her world. P.12 shows Namoras reaction to that hysteria, deciding to conquer the surface world for its own good. And p.1 shows the climax of her attack, killing the Fantastic Four. 

The FBs on pp.3-7 and 12 flow directly from one to the other, and Im unsure if we should list them separately: 

EXILES 47-FB (3-7) 
EXILES 47-FB (12) 

Or together: 

EXILES 47-FB (3-12) 

But, regardless, the FB on p.1 comes last -- *after* the FB on p.12. 


Hopefully that should help you out, Paul. Let me know if you have any more questions. 

Next: Jubilee #3-5! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 08:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Jeph.  

Let's see if I have this right when translated into calendar entry format... 

EXILES #46 
One day, weeks after EXILES 46-FB. New York City appears normal, so its rebuilding likely took a remarkably short time. The Institute is a building site; theyve made considerable headway on rebuilding it, but its obviously very far from finished  this is the only appearance which clearly shows the Institute somewhere between wrecked and more or less finished  so its after XX 46 (12-23). The Exiles return to the mainstream Marvel Universe and are given a new member, Namora, and a mission to leave their possessions and earn their wings. Namora rebels and seeks aid from Namor, who brings her to the Fantastic Four, who in turn imprison her. The Exiles drop by the Xavier Institute and run into Beak. The Tallus informs them that they must rescue Namora. Also appearing are Angel Salvadore and her brood, Beast, Nightcrawler, and Juggernaut in his gray and gold costume. Green grass and trees. 

EXILES #47 
The day after EXILES 46. The Exiles and Beak head to the Baxter Building, where they fight the Fantastic Four and Namor. 
EXILES #48 
The same day as EXILES 47. It is a few months before X 162, but also a few weeks before X 163; the former is probably right. Reed Richards determines that the Exiles mission is to leave Nocturne behind and take Beak with them. That morning the Exiles and Beak leave Nocturne behind, and Nocturne is approached by a mysterious figure to join another group (leading to her showing up as a member of Exodus Brotherhood in X 161). Sub-Mariner, the FF, Angel and the brood, Beast, Northstar, Nightcrawler, and Exodus appear.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Jun 2005 10:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
One day, weeks after EXILES 46-FB. 
<<<

You could even say, weeks after X #146. 

Quote: 
>>>
The Institute is a building site; theyve made considerable headway on rebuilding it, but its obviously very far from finished  this is the only appearance which clearly shows the Institute somewhere between wrecked and more or less finished  so its after XX 46 (12-23). 
<<<

I'm not sure the logic follows here. XX #46 also shows the Institute "halfway between wrecked and finished", and in neither book does it look "more" finished than the other. I placed these issues after XX #46 (12-23) because of the state of Manhattan -- not the state of the Institute. 

Other than that, it looks good. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 11:20 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Hey Paul, if you haven't heard, I figured I'd give you a heads up: 

Exiles #69-71 is set in the Earth 616 Universe as well. So those will need added to the calender.  

In fact, it was announced at WizardWorld Philly the following "destination schedule" for upcoming Exiles issues: 

Exiles #69-71: Earth 616 
#72-74: The New Universe, (anyone remember this from the 80's)? 
#75-76: 2099 Universe 
#77-78: Squadron Supreme Universe 
#79-80: Future Imperfect Universe, (the old "Hulk travels to the future" story) 
#81-82: Heroes Reborn Universe 

My question is: When do they get to go to the Ultimate Universe? 

And why stop there? Why not go to the "Supreme Power" universe? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 05:58 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
You could even say, weeks after X #146.  
<<<

That would have been obvious if I bothered to show the entry for EXILES 46-FB. Here's the cluster of entries for that... 

NEW X-MEN #146 
The same day as X 145. It is days before X 149 and three days before X 150 (1-31). This story may occur after MYS 13 (1-20). Having escaped the satellite in a spacecraft, Scott and Fantomex crash into the Pacific Ocean. Beast and Emma head out to retrieve them, but their aircraft is sabotaged. Phoenix departs for space to retrieve Logan, who she finds alive. Jean and Wolverine discover that the Weapon Plus space program is Asteroid M, which also is rigged to explode. Xavier formally meets Dust, so this issue cant occur long after UX 138 (16-23). Dust attacks and disables Cerebra at the order of Xorn, who cripples Xavier and reveals himself to be Magneto. Xavier states that he still hopes to step down this summer as headmaster of the Institute. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #9  FB 
The same day as X 146. Dani and Shan get kids out of the Institute during Xorneto's attack. 
EXILES #46  FB 
The same day as NX 9-FB. It is weeks before EXILES 46. Xorneto hovers above the Institute as the top floor explodes and begins to burn. 
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (20-21) 
The same day as EXILES 46-FB. This flashback must occur after NM2 12 (19-22). After taking Xavier prisoner, Xorneto destroys the Xavier Institute. 


Jeph wrote: 
>>>
I'm not sure the logic follows here. XX #46 also shows the Institute "halfway between wrecked and finished", and in neither book does it look "more" finished than the other. I placed these issues after XX #46 (12-23) because of the state of Manhattan -- not the state of the Institute. 
<<<

Actually, I think I "borrowed" that note about the state of the Institute from an old post of yours, but here's the revised entry... 

EXILES #46 
One day, weeks after EXILES 46-FB. New York City appears normal, so this story must occur after XX 46 (12-23) and the citys rebuilding likely took a remarkably short time. The Institute is a building site; theyve made considerable headway on rebuilding it, but its obviously very far from finished. The Exiles return to the mainstream Marvel Universe and are given a new member, Namora, and a mission to leave their possessions and earn their wings. Namora rebels and seeks aid from Namor, who brings her to the Fantastic Four, who in turn imprison her. The Exiles drop by the Xavier Institute and run into Beak. The Tallus informs them that they must rescue Namora. Also appearing are Angel Salvadore and her brood, Beast, Nightcrawler, and Juggernaut in his gray and gold costume. Green grass and trees.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 06:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin wrote: 
>>> 
Exiles #69-71 is set in the Earth 616 Universe as well. So those will need added to the calender. 
<<<

My wallet groans. Thanks for the heads-up, Kevin.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 03:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Technically I think those issues are set in the "House of M" *version* of the Marvel Universe. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 10:53 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

If so, that brings up my next question: Will the "House of M" stories need added to the calender? Or after the miniseries has finished, will things go back to exactly the moment in time when Wanda changed reality?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 06:39 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
If so, that brings up my next question: Will the "House of M" stories need added to the calender? Or after the miniseries has finished, will things go back to exactly the moment in time when Wanda changed reality? 
<<<

If it turns out that: 
1) the House of M reality occurs over days/weeks/months then reality gets reset to the moment before the House of M reality began; 
2) the appearances of mainstream MU characters in the House of M reality count as canonical appearances in their chronologies; and 
3) MU canonicity is not retroactively retconned (rendering everything before House of M "invalid," then... 

All House of M reality entries would be stuffed into the same day on the calendar, and temporal references would have to make it clear that we're talking about time in the alternate reality. 

As an aside, I'm wondering how interested I really am in the adventures of our favorite characters in an alternate reality. I tend to zone these adventures out. When this type of thing happens in a short story arc in one title it's okay, but am I willing to shell out for 50 alternate reality comics? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 07:07 am    
By Dhall

Does anyone know if this is definitly an Age of Apocalypse type story, where the reset button will be hit at the end? This is what House of M is starting to sound like...

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 11:49 am    
By Somebody

It sounds like, at the very least, the heroes will all still retain memories of the HoM world.

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Posted: 10 Jun 2005 10:58 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
As an aside, I'm wondering how interested I really am in the adventures of our favorite characters in an alternate reality. I tend to zone these adventures out. When this type of thing happens in a short story arc in one title it's okay, but am I willing to shell out for 50 alternate reality comics? 
<<<

Are you considering not buying ANY of the issues? 

Here's what I'm doing: I'm buying the main miniseries, and continuing to pick up the titles I already collect. I won't be picking up the House of M tie in's in titles I don't collect. As for the other "miniseries", (Spidey: HoM, FF: HoM, IM: HoM), I'm going to evaluate each one as they come out, and decided if they're worth picking up or not...beyond that though, I'm not willing to shell out money for every single tie in issue that's out there...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 09:46 am    
By jephyork
Director

As per my usual collecting policy, I'm going to buy every issue where a member of an X-team appears.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 12:01 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Interviews with Quesada have indicated that there are things in House of M which will stick. I'm getting a rather large reading on my hyperbole meter, though.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Here's what I'm doing: I'm buying the main miniseries, and continuing to pick up the titles I already collect. I won't be picking up the House of M tie in's in titles I don't collect. 
<<<

I may end up doing the same thing. Get the main miniseries to get the general gist, collect titles I already collect so as not to interrupt the collection, and poke through other titles to see if anything interesting is happening.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 58

Posted: 23 Jun 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Chronology Review for Punisher MAX #13-18:
By Kevin W.
Director

Punisher #13-18: 
"Mother Russia" 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

This story arc guest stars Nick Fury, and has the Punisher taking a trip to Russia. It's pretty easy to figure out from a chronological point of view, (and ties into the plot in New Avengers/Secret War, in a roundabout way)... 

Punisher #13: 
"Mother Russia pt. 1" 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Frank Castle, Nick Fury, New Characters: Leon Rastovich, Alexandr Baranovich Formichenko, and "Rawlins" 

Synopsis: All events in this issue seem to occur on the same day/night, which I shall now call DAY #1 of this storyline: 

The issue starts off with Frank in a diner in what I presume to be a "Little Russia" corner of New York City. He narrates to us that he's looking for Leon Rastovich, a Russian mob boss who apparently was just released from prison. While in this diner, an old Russian Immigrant named Alexandr Baranovich Formichenko starts bemoaning the fall of Russia in a drunken speech. In this speech, the old man bad mouths Leon Rastovich, and other Russian mob figures, as showing a bad image of Russians. Naturally, some thugs loyal to Rastovich start to rough up the old man, but Frank pulls them aside, interrogates them, and kills them. From these thugs, he learns Leon is staying in hiding at his mother's house. 

Meanwhile, on board a military plane, Nick Fury is in negotiations with army generals. He tells the Pentagon people that there's only one man for the job, and it's Frank Castle... 

Cut to later that night. Frank goes and kills Leon Rastovich at his mother's house. Heading away from the scene of the crime, he runs into Nick Fury. Fury explains he's the one responsible for pulling a few strings and getting Leon out of jail. He knew it was the only way to pinpoint where Frank Castle would be, (so he could talk to Frank). Frank apparently has enough respect for Nick Fury that they go and sit down at a diner and discuss what Nick wants. 

What Nick wants is apparently for Frank to go on a top secret mission at the behest of the U.S. army. In exchange for completing this mission, (the details of which are revealed next issue) Nick Fury will supply Frank with user names and passwords for every branch of the F.B.I., I.N.S., Coast Guard, and Police Stations along the East Coast. Frank will have access to any criminal he wants a shot at with that info. Frank takes the job and leaves Fury. 

Meanwhile, somewhere in the Middle East, a CIA type operative named "Rawlins" (who is undercover in the Middle East) is on a cell phone talking to the same army brass that Fury was talking to earlier in the issue. They authorize Rawlins to initiate a plan... 

References: 

Pg. 4: Punisher narrates the following: "Two days I've been hunting the maggot down here-then I stop for a sandwich and a lead falls right in my lap." So as of the opening scene, Frank's been hunting Leon Rastovich for two days. 

Pg. 8: One of the army generals talking to Nick Fury, says about the Punisher: "Did you know, for instance, that early last year a CIA team approached this son of a bitch with a similar offer?" That's a reference to Punisher MAX #1-6, which is now dated as "early last year". 

Pg. 9: Frank narrates that he tried to kill Leon Rastovich "two years ago" in a raid on a club Leon owned on "Avenue X". Leon escaped though and turned himself into the police. I don't think we saw this anywhere, but it's noted as happening "two years ago". 

Pg. 10: Frank narrates that Leon was released from prison early on "Friday morning". Since Frank's been hunting Leon for 2 days, (going by the reference on pg. 4) I'd say 2 days ago was Friday, making this Sunday. But that's perhaps flexible if needed. 

Pg. 17: Nick Fury and Frank are in negotiations. Frank asks who Fury is working for. Fury replies the U.S. Army and the Air Force. Fury says "But if I do this for those brass-hat @#$%'s-I set up this one job--and things get fixed so I get SHIELD back for good." So this would seem to indicate that Fury is no longer in control of SHIELD as of this issue, (which ties into the plot in Secret War/New Avengers, I believe). 

Pg. 19: As the negotiations conclude, Frank asks Fury why Fury doesn't go do the job himself. Fury replies, "You kidding me? I'm not getting my head blown off on some @#$%ing suicide mission. I have to get SHIELD back and save the %$#damn world." 

Pg. 20: Rawlins notes that he's been in the Middle East undercover for "two and a half years". 

Punisher #14: 
"Mother Russia pt. 2" 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Frank Castle, Nick Fury, Rawlins, New characters: Captain Martin Vanheim. 

Synopsis: The story cuts back and forth from "the present" to a flashback happening what I assume to be the day before. 

Flashback: Pgs. 2, 4, 6-8: (DAY #2): These pages reveal the details of what happens the day after last issue. It's possible it's a few days later, but I believe it's intended to be the next day after the end of last issue. The Punisher is picked up by Nick Fury the next day and they are flown to a military base in Rhode Island. There, Fury gives Frank a military briefing on the objective: Frank is to go into Siberia to a Russian nuclear missile silo where Russian scientists are experimenting on a 6 year old Russian girl named Galina Stenkov. Galina Stenkov's father is a biowarfare scientist who created a virus codenamed "Barbarosa". This scientist tried to escape to America, (the American General's made him an offer) but he was caught by the Russians, (and subsequently had a heart attack while being interrogated). Upon being captured, he injected the virus, (along with the cure) into his daughter. Fury says that they have approx. "48 hours" to retrieve the girl and get a blood sample from her, so that they can save the virus, (which is fading from Galina's system). Fury says the American military wants Frank to retrieve the girl from the missile silo, and bring her back before the virus is destroyed. Fury also says the U.S. military also insists that a Delta Force operative goes with Frank, to make sure things go well, and so we are introduced to Captain Martin Vanheim, who accompanies Frank on the mission. 

Pgs. 1, 3, 5, 9-22: "The Present" (Day #3): The story starts out with Frank and Vanheim parachuting into Siberia, near the missile silo. They make their way into the small town of Suhdek, which is right next to the missile silo. They go in undercover, posing as local peasants. Stepping into the local bar, they soon see a couple of off duty soldiers from the silo stepping inside the bar. Frank and Vanheim purposely start a bar fight so that in the commotion, they can knock out the two soldiers and drag them out back and steal their uniforms, (which they do successfully). 

With the soldiers uniforms, I.D.'s, and jeep, they head to the missile silo. They get through the front gates and take the elevator down below to retrieve Galena... 

Meanwhile, in the subplot at the same time, Fury meets up with the American Generals again, who tell Fury he didn't need to share all of the information on "Barbarosa" with Frank. Fury says tough luck, that Frank had the right to know what he was retrieving. Fury leaves the room, and the army brass say they're going to go ahead with their own secret plan, to make sure Frank succeeds... 

As far what that secret plan is, we cut to see Rawlins, who is getting onboard a plane in Saudi Arabia and flying back home to New York City, (having finished his task in the Middle East). He sees another plane taking off, which is heading to Russia. He has put some trained operatives on that plane, and has set a plan into motion for the U.S. Army... 

References: 

Pg. 4: There is a sort of "flashback within a flashback" on this page. As Fury explains the mission to Frank at the military base, they watch video footage of classified Russian experiments on captured Chechen rebels. We see the killer virus used on the rebels, killing them instantly. This flashback runs from panels 1 to 3, (out of 4). We don't know when this occured, it could be recent, it could be a few years back, (Fury says that these Chechen rebels were captured by the Russians back in 1994). 

Pg. 8: As the briefing ends, Frank says, "There's a rumor the Russians are our friends these days." To which Fury replies, "Well, there's friends and there's friends. The old games never change, Castle. You know that." Figured I'd share that in case you were wondering why the U.S. military is performing a Black Ops mission on Russian soil. 

It's nighttime in the scenes in Siberia, and going by a reference next issue that it's nearly sunrise, I think all of these events in Siberia happen in a relatively short amount of time, after midnight, (thus it's Day #3). Events of this issue and the next few must occur over a short time span, as Frank only has "48 hours" to retrieve the virus. 

Punisher #15: 
"Mother Russia pt. 3" 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Frank Castle, Nick Fury, Captain Martin Vanheim, New characters: Galina Stenkov, General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, "The Mongolian", Colonel Semyon Lugansky, Major Grigori Yeremin. 

Synopsis: Continues right from where we left off last issue, and the entire issue happens over a short time period of an hour or two...(Day #3) 

Frank and Vanheim rescue 6 year old Galina Stenkov from a labratory where scientists are experimenting on her down inside the Missile Silo. Frank talks to her briefly and gets her to trust him. They start to leave the missile silo, taking the elevator back up to the surface, but as the elevator doors open, they see some Russian soldiers walking around, repairing a tank out front. Vanheim panics and shoots them, and so Frank, Vanheim, and Galina duck back into the elevator and take it back down just as the Russians start to open fire on them. 

Meanwhile, at a nearby Russian military headquarters, we are introduced to Colonel Semyon Lugansky and Major Grigori Yeremin, who are in charge of the missile silo, and in charge of the girl. The two of them are enjoying a lazy morning when up pulls a car carrying General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, and his lackey, whom Major Yeremin refers to as "The Mongolian". Zakharov, we are told, is a General notorius for his slaughter in Afganistan during the 1980's, and the Mongolian is his best soldier. They have arrived to pick up the girl and take her back to Moscow. General Zakharov asks if anything suspicious has happened, and Major Yeremin says there is word that there was a bar fight in town last night, but that's a pretty regular occurance, except for the fact that two soldiers went missing, (the two that Frank and Vanheim replaced). The General is convinced that the American's will make an attempt to get the girl, yet Col. Lugansky thinks that's absurd. But just then, into their office rushes a soldier, who reports there's been a gunfight out at the silo. 

Back at the Silo, Frank tells Vanheim to start looking for escape routes... Frank meanwhile loads up on weaponry, and (after telling Galina to stay down below) heads back up the elevator and destroys a big chunk of the Russian military lining up outside, before having to retreat back down below... 

Meanwhile, Fury gets a phonecall from the U.S. Generals telling them that their spy satellites have detected gunfire at the missile silo. Fury tells them not to panic just yet and hangs up. 

References: 

Pg. 7: Frank narrates as they're about to leave the base that sunrise is "in about an hour". 

Pg. 22: When we see Fury getting the phone call from the Army, he is in bed with 3 hookers. I don't know if that's out of character for Fury, (thus throwing the whole Punisher MAX series into question about it being canon). In Issue #13, he did mention that he was going to #$%^ every hooker in New York City... 

Punisher #16: 
"Mother Russia pt. 4" 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Frank Castle, Nick Fury, Captain Martin Vanheim, Galina Stenkov, General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, "The Mongolian", Colonel Semyon Lugansky, Major Grigori Yeremin. 

Synopsis: Continues right where we left off last issue, and takes place over a few short hours. DAY #3 continued... 

Frank spends the better part of the issue keeping guard on the elevator shaft, killing Russian troops as they try and climb down the shaft and get at Frank. The Russians are too afraid of just throwing a ton of bombs down there, out of fear of killing the girl, (and thus, destroying the virus). Frank occasionally goes back to the office and checks to see if Vanheim has found a way out yet. Vanheim (who's checking the blueprints of the place) reports the elevator appears to be the only way out... 

Back in the nearby Russian army headquarters, General Zakharov has had soldiers from the gun fight at the silo come and report to him what the enemy looks like. Their reports, (along with reports from the villagers involved in the barfight last night) seem to indicate these are caucasian men, not neccesarily Arabic in appearance. Zakharov is convinced this is Americans trying to extract the virus, but Col. Lugansky finds that ludicrous, thinking Zakharov is a Cold War Era relic. Lugansky believes it's Islamic terrorists. Zakharov says he's sending in the Mongolian... 

Meanwhile, back in America, Fury stops by the army base, to see the U.S. Generals are in a panic, knowing there's a possible international incident about to explode over in Russia. Fury tells them to calm down, that Frank will finish the job, and he turns around and leaves. The Generals aren't satisfied with that, but they reassure themselves that Rawlin's men are about to spring into action... 

Just then, on a plane heading from Saudi Arabia and flying to Moscow, a group of men on board leap up and take control of the plane, with expert precission. They fly the plane onwards, and start barking on the radio about "Glory to Allah" and how Russia will pay for siding with America in the War on Terror. The Kremlin starts aiming missiles at the plane... Here's what the U.S. General's plan is, (as we learn next issue): They've had Rawlins, (a CIA/Army operative) stationed in the Middle East, posing as an Islamic Fanatic who's been gathering up terrorist cells, and training them to hijack planes. When the U.S. army needs to perform a strike on nations that are "friendly" to America, (like Russia) they have one of their terrorist cells attack the country, to draw attention away from the real strike, and to make it look like it's the work of Islamic Terrorists. So the US Army Generals have set this terrorist cell into action, (the terrorists unknowningly aiding the USA). 

Back in Siberia, the Mongolian sneaks down the Elevator shaft and manages to slip by Frank. He knocks out Vanheim, and Galina calls out for help from Frank. Frank runs back to her aid, but the Mongolian, (a master martial artist) gets the drop on him, and knocks Frank unconsious... 

References: None, really... 

Punisher #17: 
"Mother Russia pt. 5" 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Frank Castle, Nick Fury, Captain Martin Vanheim, Galina Stenkov, General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, "The Mongolian", Colonel Semyon Lugansky, Major Grigori Yeremin. 

Synopsis: Continues right where we left off last issue, and takes place over probably an hour or two...DAY #3 continued... 

Russian Defense missiles shoot the plane out of the sky before it can get to Moscow, (which is what the U.S. Generals wanted). Moscow sends a priority fax to General Zakharov and Colonel Lugansky, informing them about the terrorists on the airplane. Lugansky takes this as evidence that the people in the missile silo are Islamic terrorists, but Zakharov still thinks it's Americans. 

Back inside the silo, Frank's fading in and out of consiousness. The Mongolian tells the Russians upstairs that it's safe to come down now. Galina begs the Mongolian for help, but he slaps the girl. Frank, (thinking back to his dying daughter) finds the strength to get up and rip the Mongolian limb from limb. 

Frank then goes and kills the Russians who are entering through the elevator shaft. When he comes back, he finds Vanheim has woke up, and is trying to inject the girl with something. Frank beats up Vanheim, and gets him to talk. Vanheim explains that if it looks like they can't get the girl out, he was told by the Generals to take a blood sample from her, and kill the girl. Frank orders Vanheim to start operating the computer, that he's got a plan... 

Meanwhile, back in America, the U.S. Generals are all happy as hell that their terrorist "plane attack" went as planned, until Nick Fury steps back into the room. He asks what they're up to, and they explain what their plan was, (they didn't want it known it's Americans trying to steal the virus, so they're making it look like Islamic terrorists are attacking). Fury asks who planned this, and upon finding out which one of the General's came up with this idea, Fury pulls off his belt and start whipping the General over the head repeatedly! He says, "What about the people on that plane?!?" He tells the Generals that not all of the Russians are stupid, and they better hope the Russians don't see through this, and pray that Frank completes the job. Fury walks out. 

Just then, Col. Lugansky and General Zakharov get a message from the "terrorists" inside the missile silo, (it's Frank and Vanheim, sending them a message): The Russians are to stop their assualt on the silo, and let them escape, or they will set off all of the nukes inside the silo, aiming them for Russian cities.... 

References: None, really... 

Punisher #18: 
"Mother Russia pt. 6" 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Frank Castle, Nick Fury, Captain Martin Vanheim, Galina Stenkov, General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, "The Mongolian", Colonel Semyon Lugansky, Major Grigori Yeremin, Alexandr Baranovich Formichenko 

Synopsis: This issue is spread over a few days, as follows: 

Pgs. 1-15: Day 3 Continued: Everybody is in a panic. Nick Fury tells the Generals to hold on, that Frank's not going to nuke all of Russia. Inside Col. Lugansky's office, Moscow is on the phone, their computers detecting the warheads warming up for launch. General Zakharov tells Moscow to stand by, that he has the situation under control. Col. Lugansky is in disbelief, (still thinking it's Islamic terrorists who are about to nuke all of Russia), and he says he's relieving General Zakharov from command. In response, General Zakharov shoots Col. Lugansky, killing him. And so everyone waits... 

The first of the missiles launch, gets about 8,000 feet in the air, and then it's engines quit, and it falls back down to the Earth. A hatch opens on the missile, and out jump Frank, Galina, and Vanheim, parachuting back down to Earth. The missile lands in a snowbank, and all of the missiles inside the silo don't go off. Frank had Vanheim reprogram them before they left. General Zakharov tells Major Yeremin to have soldiers search the area in a 20 mile radius around where the missile landed. Upon landing in the snow, we see Vanheim lost his backpack (with his coat in it) in the turbulent winds while parachuting to the Earth. So they only have one coat between them. Frank has them draw straws, to see who gets the coat. Frank wins, and so he, (wrapped up in the coat, with Galina in it) marches to the coast, where the Navy submarine is waiting to pick them up. Vanheim tries to follow but dies as nighttime falls, and the temperature drops to 20 below zero.... 

Pgs. 16-21, (panel 1 of 3): 3 days later, (Day #6): Frank and Galina step off a military plane at the army base where Fury and the Generals are. The Generals are informed that Frank wouldn't let any military scientists on board the submarine take a sample of Galina's blood. Which means the virus is already dead in Galina's system. Fury asks Frank if that's true, and Frank says, "Promised her I wouldn't let anyone hurt her". Fury just tells the Generals, "Win some, lose some." The Generals start to have their soldiers escort Fury off the base, and arrest Frank, but Fury walks over and stands beside Frank, and tells the soldiers they are going to have to go through both of them to get to Galina. Fury and Frank leave the base without being touched by the soldiers. Frank then gives Galina over the Fury, saying Fury will find her a good home. Galina asks to stay with Frank, but Frank says where he goes in life, he can't protect her. 

Pgs. 21, (panels 2 and 3) to Pg. 22: 3 days later, (Day #9): Frank is back in the bar we saw in Issue #13, (when this storyline started). He gives the bartender a bottle of "true" vodka he swiped from the bar in Siberia, to give to the old Russian Immigrant who sits there all the time, drinking his woes away. 

References: 

Pg. 17: The Generals are chewing out Fury and Frank, and one of them notes that the virus died in Galina's system "2 days ago". Since when Fury sent Frank on the mission, they had 48 hours to get a blood sample from Galina, (to save the virus before it was destroyed by her immune system), that puts pages 16-21 probably 3 days later. 

Pg. 21: Frank narrates that after leaving Galina with Fury, he went home and "slept for 3 days". 

That's it for now. I should go ahead and note that the next story arc, (which is Punisher MAX #19-24) happens around "one year later" from the story arc shown in Punisher MAX story arc #1-6, (it's a sequel to that storyline). So Punisher MAX #1-24 happen over a period of 1 year, (if the references are to be believed). 

Next up on my "Review" list is probably "Stormbreaker: the Saga of Beta Ray Bill"...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 59

Posted: 27 Jun 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Wild C.A.T.S./X-Men: The Silver Age
By metaldragon

Wild C.A.T.S./X-Men: The Silver Age #1 (June 1997, Image Comics/Wildstorm/Marvel, 2 covers: Jim Lee & Scott Williams, Neal Adams & Scott Williams, also a 3D Edition with the same choice of covers) 

Story: 
Cole Cash is sprung from a South American prison by Colonel Nick Fury of SHIELD where he was imprisoned next to a man who looks, talks, and acts like Gambit. When they leave they are attacked by the Brood. They are saved by the SHIELD (Supreme Headquarters of International Espionage, Law-enforcement Division) helicarrier. 

The X-Men (Cyclops, Angel, Iceman, Beast, and Marvel Girl) are at Warren's Eagle's Nest estate in Madripoor. Jean is leaving for a modelling gig in Sydney, Australia. On the plane she "overhears" the Brood psionicly attacking an Agent Tom Maslow who had been investigating their "unholy alliance" with some aliens called the Daemonites. When they land they are met by Cash (who had been kitted out in his Grifter outfit by SHIELD) and some Brood-Daemonite hybrids who shoot Maslow. Jean telepathicly retrieves the intelligence from him before he dies. Cash unleashes his psionic blast which kills the hybrids. 

A costumed, half-human and half-hybrid guy named Pike contacts Mr. Sinister about what happened at the airport. 

Cash starts a romantic interlude with Jean after she calls the X-Men for reinforcements but he realises she has someone else on her mind. They follow the clue Maslow passed on to a ship called "Heaven's Wave" where a fund raiser is being held by a load of international celebrities. Pike and the Brood hybrids crash the party while Jean and Cash change into their costumes and sneak in from below. Sinister tells Pike to bring the VIPs below, one at a time. Marvel Girl and Cash fight some Brood hybrids and uncover a strange lab in the lower levels of the ship where a woman named Zealot is chained up. 

Pike knocks Marvel Girl unconscious, Sinister steals a cell sample from her, and Cash frees Zealot while they're distracted. Marvel Girl comes 'round and attacks Pike and the Brood hybrids while Sinister slips away before she sees him. Suddenly the rest of the X-Men arrive and smash their way in (they located Marvel Girl with their portable Cerebro unit) which leads to a tense situation between Cyclops and Cash. Marvel Girl intervenes. 

The X-Men with Jean leave by helicopter and Zealot offers to train Cash. 

Chronological Clues: 
Angel is in the blue and white costume given to him by Magneto in the Savage Land. Cyclops mentions that Professor X is "gone". Lorna Dane & Havok are not seen or mentioned. The X-Men are in Madripoor and not in the US. This appears to be the moment when Sinister got the cell from Jean to grow her clone Madeline Pryor. The most logical spot this would go would be between The (Uncanny) X-Men #63 & 64. Reasons: they stop in Madripoor on their way from the Savage Land back to the US (where they encounter Sunfire). This is just before Professor X returns and Lorna & Havok join the team in issue 65, and while Neal Adams is the main artist on the book. 

Characters: 
Marvel Girl 
Cyclops 
Iceman 
Angel 
Beast 
Colonel Nick Fury of SHIELD 
Mr. Sinister 
Gambit (not named but obvious) 

Cole Cash (Grifter) 
Zealot 

Pike ("half-human and half-hybrid" servant of the Daemonites) 
Ms. Honeygate (An agent of SHIELD but possibly related to Zealot somehow?!? "comes off like... a ninja") 

Brood-Daemonite hybrids (most are killed) 
Agent Tom Maslow (dies) 

Mick Jagger 
John Lennon 
Ronald Reagan 
Bob Dylan 
Andy Warhol
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 01:21 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Hey, thanks for the chronology review (I'll be using the info for my personal chronologies), but alas, this type of crossover book is non-canon as far as the Marvel Chronology Project is concerned. The general policy here is not to include intercompany crossovers that have the characters existing together on the same Earth. If they cross from one Earth to another (such as they did in JLA/Avengers) then it's fair game, but otherwise the book is usually not included in the MCP.
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- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 02:35 am    
By metaldragon

At one point Cole Cash says: "Something TUGGING at the back of my BRAIN is telling me this is about MORE than saving the world. It's about saving my OWN WORLD." (the allcaps signifiy words that were boldfaced) 

I get the feeling from this story that somehow the Wild C.A.T.S. characters (and aliens) crossed dimensions and ended up (with amnesia) in the Marvel Universe briefly for this storyline (Golden, Silver, Modern) and at the end of it resove the whatever-it-is that landed them there. Strangely enough, this is the only time (as far as I know) it's ever explained when and how Mr. Sinister got ahold genetic material from Jean Grey to clone Madeline Pryor from. 

Although published by Image, Marvel put their stamp on the book as well as Wildstorm and it seems they (Scott Lobdell, Jim Lee, and "Consulting Editor Bob Harras") really did their research so nothing would conflict with established Marvel continuity. Hell, they even persuaded Neal Adams to do a cover! 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 04:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I've read the whole series, and it's written on the basis that the characters share a universe. On that principle, it's non-canon, no matter how much continuity research they did.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 08:35 am    
By metaldragon

Funnily enough, the WildC.A.T.S. (Image) universe didn't really "start" until the early '90s or so when Image Comics was created, so, in theory that could have been the point where their continuity "split off" from the Marvel Universe. lol! 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 60

Posted: 01 Jun 2005 10:23 pm    Post subject: Paul O'Brien: Your Index review of UX 60
By ADMINISTRATOR

Caught your recent Index entry of UX 60. 

As a pop culture reference, you cite the comparison of Karl Lykos to Ben Casey. 

Quote: 
>>>
Lykos is compared to the title character of Ben Casey, a hospital drama which ran from 1961 to 1966. By the standards of the time (it was a contemporary of Dr Kildare), it was apparently fairly realistic. Casey was an early example of the irascible hero doctor fighting to get things done in the face of the bureaucratic medical establishment. 
<<<

That was actually an inside joke. Ben Casey was also a newspaper comic strip from the mid-sixties, illustrated by...guess who? Neal Adams. 

Check out this site for some devastatingly beautiful samples: 

http://profmendez.tripod.com/html/casey.html 


watching: tonight show

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Posted: 02 Jun 2005 05:01 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Ah. Thanks for that - I'll add that to the page!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Jun 2005 08:45 am    
By Ross

I always wondered about that reference, when Joe Pesci's character shoots Spider in the foot, in "Goodfellas", and says "Take him to Ben Casey, the little pr*ck". 

One less thing to wonder about.

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Thread 61

Posted: 30 Mar 2005 11:43 pm    Post subject: Marvel Year In Review: 1961 and 1962
By Nathan P. Mahney

As requested by our beloved Admin, here's my post as originally seen on RACMU. Enjoy, and discuss! 

MARVEL YEAR IN REVIEW: 1961-1962 

It was the middle of 1961. A new and silvery Age was dawning. The Marvel Age of comics had arrived! 

This is the first in a series of Year In Review posts that Im working on as I read my way chronologically through the Marvel Universe. If youre wondering why Ive lumped 1961 and 1962 together, its because there was only one relevant comic in 1961. Despite its unarguable importance in Marvel history, I wont be devoting lots of words to a single comic  I leave that to over-priced Marvel hardcovers! 

But I digress Where should I begin my review of 61-62? Where else but with the heroes, and their purportedly perilous pitfalls! (But first, the comics relevant to this discussion!) 

THE COMICS 
Amazing Fantasy #15 
Fantastic Four #1-9 
Incredible Hulk #1-4 
Journey Into Mystery #83-87 
Strange Tales #101-103 
Tales to Astonish #27 and #35-38 

THE HEROES 

The Fantastic Four: It would be remiss of me to begin anywhere else but with the Fantastic Four, Marvels first superheroes of the Silver Age. 1961 and 1962 saw the publication of nine issues of Fantastic Four, already The Worlds Greatest Comic Magazine! by #4. Some of these issues were pivotal. Some were not. 
The first adventure of the Fantastic Four recounted their origin, as well as having them battle the Mole Man. The origin is well known, but let me repeat it as it was over 40 years ago, before retcons set in: four friends take a rocket to beat the Communists into space. Bombarded by cosmic rays, they each gain super powers: Reed Richards becomes the stretchable Mr. Fantastic; Johnny Storm becomes the fiery Human Torch; Ben Grimm becomes the rocky, super strong Thing; and Sue Storm becomes the Invisible Girl. (Sue doesnt gain her ability to use force fields until much later  she doesnt have it by the end of 1962.) Together they decide to use their powers for good, and band together as the Fantastic Four. 
There were other interesting differences between the FF of then and now. Their adventures didnt begin in New York for one thing: in the very early days they operated in Central City. Nor did they have costumes, or live in the Baxter Building, or fly around in a bathtub. Those trappings, so intrinsic to the FF now, didnt appear until issue #3. (The Baxter Building also appeared with a floor-plan in #3, as well as #6. Very cool!) 
The FFs basic personalities and roles were in place pretty early on, but check out this dialogue from the Thing in issue #1: So, the time has come! Its a far cry from Its Clobberin Time!, a battle cry that hasnt been used at all by the end of 62. Much of the Things dialogue was similarly stilted early on in issue #1, and its not until later on that he settles down into more familiar speech patterns. He also wears a full-body costume, complete with a helmet. The costume only lasts for one issue (#3), as the Thing tears it up in disgust. (He wont wear a silly outfit, but hes happy to fight crime in his undies?) 
He changes back and forth between Ben Grimm and the Thing a lot at this stage. Once in issue #1, natch. A quick change back to Ben Grimm after a jaunt into outer space to stop the Skrulls in #2 (another dose of cosmic rays was the explanation). He changes back to Ben Grimm briefly in #4, during a fight with the Torch (this one has no explanation). Again in #8, when Reed douses him in an experimental formula designed to cure the big guy. Four times in nine issues is a decent amount. 
The Thing also meets Alicia Masters right near the end of 62. Its an important pairing, but at this point theyre just friends. Theres also the Yancy Street Gang, who begin their terror campaign against the Thing in issue #6. 
Mr. Fantastic and Sue Storm settle into their roles very quickly, Reed as the genius man-of-action and Sue as the fainting mother-type. Their engagement is established from the first issue, but a spanner gets thrown into the works very quickly  the Sub-Mariner! More on him below Sue quickly becomes infatuated with the undersea monarch, but doesnt show it in issue #4, his first Silver Age appearance. By #6, though, shes well and truly hooked by Namors manly charm, torn between her love for Reed and her attraction to Namor. Who will she choose? 
The Torch is right there tooling around with hot rods from day one, and is surprisingly consistent in characterisation. I guess its obvious, though: young hothead. What else could he be? 
Their adventures are wild and varied, establishing a lot of ground that would be built on in the following years. The Mole Man and Monster Island. The Skrulls. A hypnotist called the Miracle Man. The Sub-Mariner. Doctor Doom. A team-up between the Sub-Mariner and Doctor Doom. The aliens of Planet X. The Puppet Master. The Sub-Mariner (again!). None of the stories are really classics, but the characters are in place. 
Highlight: Fantastic Four #6. Doctor Doom teams up with the Sub-Mariner, and together they hatch a plot that sends the Baxter Building hurtling toward the sun. But Doom betrays the Sub-Mariner, trapping him in the Baxter Building with the FF! This is a good story, with not only the first ever Marvel super-villain team-up, but also the first time Namor and the FF worked together. Not only that, but it introduced the triangle between Sue, Reed and Namor that would be the emotional core of the series for the next few years. Its also a better Doom story than FF #5 (not by much, though!). 
Lowlight: Fantastic Four #7. Its the FFs first journey to another planet, which ought to be significant. Its not. The inhabitants of Planet X never appear again to my knowledge, and the logic on display is ropey even by Silver Age standards. 
Goofiest Moment: Could it be the FF defeating a Skrull armada with clippings from old issues of Strange Tales? Reed hypnotising Skrull spies into thinking that they are cows? Sub-Mariner financing a movie company to help the FF out of debt (dont be fooled, its really a plot to destroy them)? Nah, the winner has got to be the Thing as Blackbeard the Pirate. You see, Doctor Dooms first attack on the FF was not a sinister plan to destroy them. No, he wanted to send them back in time to retrieve some magical gems, once the property of Merlin, that would make him invincible. The FF (minus Sue) disguised themselves as pirates, and of course the Thing was mistaken for Blackbeard! He very nearly stayed behind to live a life of pirating, but it was not to be. He did look cool with a beard and an eyepatch, though. Trust, me, its every bit as awesome as it sounds! 

Spider-Man: Spidey didnt get to do much in these early days: just live out his origin story. Lets take a trip down memory lane Nerd Peter Parker is bitten by a radioactive spider and gains spidery powers. He wrestles a bit to test them out, invents mechanical web shooters, and starts a life in show biz. But, when given the chance to stop a burglar, he does not. Alas, for the burglar eventually goes on to shoot his beloved Uncle Ben! Thus Peter learns that greatest of lessons: With Great Powers Comes Great Responsibility (plus incredibly hot girlfriends, cool powers, and a spider-buggy). 
Though we are treated to the greatest origin story ever, Spideys supporting cast is pretty thin on the ground at this point. Its just Aunt May, the soon-to-be-deceased Uncle Ben, and a cameo by Flash Thompson, with a blond girl who could possibly be Liz Allen. There aint no villains either, except for the burglar who shoot Uncle Ben. 
A few Spidey staples show up, though. His enhanced strength and agility are there from the beginning, and he invents his web shooters pretty quick smart, but theres no spider-sense to be seen. 
No lowlights, or goofy bits here: its all highlights! 

The Hulk: The Hulk was by far the most unfocused Marvel character of 1962. He goes through a lot of changes, as youll see if you read on. 
The Hulks origin is given in issue #1. Scientist Bruce Banner has invented the gamma bomb, and its about to be given its first field test. But look, stupid teenage kid Rick Jones is sitting in a car on the test field playing his harmonica! Banner rushes out to save him, but the scientists assistant Igor detonates the gamma bomb before Banner can reach safety (hes an evil Russian). Banner is bombarded with gamma rays that give him the power to transform into the super strong yet not-too-bright Hulk. Rick Jones, indebted to Bruce Banner for saving his life, becomes the Hulks sidekick. 
The Hulk was originally very different than his classic form. He had grey skin for starters, and he was quite talkative. He even spoke in full sentences! This Hulk was also far from stupid  he had a cunning mind that helped him evade the soldiers on his tail. Banner didnt transform into the Hulk when angered, but instead became the Hulk during the night, and reverted to Banner during the day. 
By issue #2 the Hulks skin had turned green, though no explanation was given. He still retained his cunning, and even some evil: he plans to destroy humankind with an alien spaceship! 
Issue #3 sees the strangest change in the Hulks status quo yet. The Hulk is tricked by the US military into boarding a rocket, so that they can banish him into outer space. Rick Jones, still on Earth, tries to control the rocket to fly it back to Earth. But, through the mysterious power of radiation, an energy surge links the minds of the Hulk and Rick. The Hulk manages to return to Earth, where Rick discovers that the Hulk will obey his commands! The Hulk cant turn back into Banner in this state, and hell run amok if Rick goes to sleep. The Hulk sentences start to get a little more primitive in this issue as well. 
Issue #4 sees yet ANOTHER change. Rick manages to use a ray invented by Banner to transform the Hulk back into human form, but Banner is greatly weakened by the change. He tinkers with the ray and manages to use it to regain the Hulks form, but with his own intelligence. He uses his new strength and intelligence to save a family from a fire, but the family still shoot at the Hulk in fear. Tired of being hounded, the Hulk uses the ray to return to being Bruce Banner. This ray remains the status quo for Banners transformations, at least for now. 
The Hulk doesnt get a great selection of villains for his first year. Theres a whole slew of evil commies, from Igor to the Gargoyle to a guy dressed up as Mongu, Gladiator from Outer Space. The Toad Men try to conquer Earth, and the Circus of Crime make their first appearance, with their now-familiar racket of thievery-by-hypnotism. Thats about it, unless you count Thunderbolt Ross as a villain. Or the Hulk himself, for that matter 
Speaking of Ross, the core Hulk cast is in place from very early on. Rick Jones is as central a character as Bruce Banner in the early days. Thunderbolt Ross is his usual blustering self, and his daughter Betty is in place as Bruces love interest. 
Highlight: Incredible Hulk #1. Its not a bad origin story, though its heavy use of Communist villains dates it a lot. Its the highlight through lack of competition, really, but it does introduce a lot of core elements of the Hulk mythos. 
Lowlight: Incredible Hulk #4. Its not particularly bad, but it does highlight that no one really knew what to do with the character at this point. It has the third status quo in four issues, and the one farthest removed from the concept of Frankenstein-meets-Jekyll and Hyde. 
Goofiest Moment: Mongu, Gladiator from Outer Space. What cunning plan to kidnap the Hulk have the Commies come up with this week? Why, theyve decided to dress up as an alien invader in order to challenge him to a fight! The mind boggles No wonder they lost the Cold War. 

Thor: Thor gets off to a muddled start in his first year. Though all of the right elements are there, his villains are all over the place. He battles Loki, aliens, communists, and a guy from the future. Its eclectic, sure, but its just a bit scattered. 
Thors origin at this point is fairly simple. Lame doctor Don Blake is on holiday in Norway when he sees an invading force of Stone Men from Saturn. He flees into a cave where he finds the hammer of Thor. He wields the hammer, becomes Thor, and cracks some stone heads. The end. 
Thors identity is a bit of a curly one in these early stories. Hes portrayed as being really Don Blake, who transforms into Thor. He even has to try to remember legends about Thor when he IS Thor, which is very odd. We know from retcons that hes really Thor. But at this point, the stories would have you believe hes Don Blake. Yet, after the origin issue, he acts as though hes really Thor when hes Thor. My head hurts. 
Thor also doesnt speak in his patented cod-Shakespearian dialect yet, either. Hes formal, sure, but he hasnt gone all the way yet. 
Thors supporting cast are established here, though not really developed. Jane Foster is there, and she already has the hots for both Don Blake and Thor. Blake cant reciprocate her feelings because hes lame, of course, but theres really no explanation yet for why Thor cant. Loki pops his head in as a fabulous villain, and Odin, Asgard, Heimdall, Balder and Tyr all make appearances. Once again, though, the pieces havent been put to best use yet. 
Highlight: Journey Into Mystery #85. Thor vs. Loki, for the first time! This really is a great battle, with Loki really living up to his title as the god of mischief. He transforms people into negatives, hypnotises Thor, flies with pigeons, and just generally uses every trick he has  even pushing women onto railroad tracks, the fiend! 
Lowlight: Journey Into Mystery #87. Why? I read it an hour ago, and Ive already forgotten what happens. Let me think Ah yes, Commies! Where would the Marvel Silver Age be without them? The plot is wafer-thin, with Don Blake allowing himself to get kidnapped so that he can rescue some scientists as Thor. I do realise that most Silver Age plots are just an excuse for the heroes to fight someone, but putting Thor up against guys with guns, even Communists, seems pretty pointless to me. 
Goofiest Moment: Well, there is one bit where Thor creates lightning by rubbing Mjolnir between his palms, but thats not the winner. The winner is Journey Into Mystery #84. Picture this. You are the Executioner, tyrant of San Diablo. You have a lame doctor cornered, ready to be shot by your troops. The doctor stamps his cane on the ground, and there is a flash of light. The light disappears, and there stands Thor. Your conclusion? The Yankee escaped! 

Ant Man: Ant Man began his comics career not as Ant Man, but as Henry Pym, a scientist who discovered a serum that could shrink things. In his first appearance, Tales to Astonish #27, he was not a hero, but merely a foolhardy scientist who managed to shrink himself and get trapped in an anthill. Luckily he escaped, and seven months later, revamped himself to become Ant Man, worlds greatest insect-controlling superhero! 
Ant Man is probably the weakest of these early Marvel titles. He has no supporting cast, and he himself isnt particularly compelling as a character. He does have a certain quirkiness thats appealing, and his solutions to problems are often fun, but its not really enough to make the series worthwhile reading. 
His powers are a little different than the standard Ant Man powerset of today. Hes got the helmet that lets him communicate with ants, of course. And hes got the shrinking formula, though its not been referred to as Pym Particles yet. He still has to splash himself with the formula at this point. He travels via a miniature cannon that he shoots himself from, which is pretty cool  no flying ants just yet. 
His villains dont help Ant Mans reputation as a serious hero. In four issues of superheroing we get two Communists, a one-shot villain called the Protector, and Egghead. Eggheads kinda cool, but enough with the Commies already 
Highlight: Tales to Astonish #27. Its just the tale of one desperate man fighting for his life in an anthill. Cool stuff. 
Lowlight: Tales to Astonish #37. The Protector. This guy busts in on jewelry store owners, disintegrates their merchandise, and then threatens to do it again unless the store people give him more money. Fair enough, its a sensible plan by Silver Age standards. But, hes a jewelry store owner himself! Why pretend to get attacked by the Protector, and call in Ant Man to investigate? Seems counterproductive to me. 
Goofiest Moment: You havent lived until youve seen a man shrunken down to a millimetre in height performing judo on an ant. 

The Human Torch: The Torch gets his own entry because he had his own solo title in Strange Tales. Its better than it has any right to be, probably because it features the characters that were written best in this era. The Torch is the focus, with the FF as his supporting cast. 
The set-up is a bit odd, though. The Torch lives with his sister Sue in Glenville, where he apparently has a secret identity. Im not sure how this works at all, because the FF are big celebrities in their own book. It doesnt really make much sense, but I suppose I can go with it 
The Torchs rogues gallery is pretty thin, though there were only three issues so far. A Communist (surprise!), invaders from the 5th Dimension, and the Wizard! I was genuinely surprised to see the Wizard as a Torch villain. It doesnt help his reputation as the smartest man on Earth that he cant figure out the Torchs secret identity, though. Hey, nimrod, turn on the TV! 
Highlight: Strange Tales #102. The Wizard is a cool villain from the start, even if hes not all his rep makes him out to be. The cameo by Sue is welcome, also. 
Lowlight: Strange Tales #103. Its a pretty generic invasion plotline. It does feature the first girl who is attracted to Johnny though  thats one. Ill try and keep score. 
Goofiest Moment: The Torch fights an invasion from the 5th Dimension, whose every weapon and vehicle just happens to be fireproof. 

THE VILLAINS 

The Circus of Crime: The Circus of Crime make their debut in Incredible Hulk #3, but its only the Ringmaster who stands out as a character  the other familiar Circus-members dont show up yet. 
This is pretty much the prototype for every Circus of Crime story ever. The Circus shows up in town, the Ringmaster hypnotises people, the Circus loot the town. Rinse and repeat. Its formula, but you cant beat the corny quality of a guy hypnotising a whole town with a spinning top hat. 
So the Circus rolls into the same town where Rick Jones is visiting his aunt. Rick gets sucked in by their shtick, but manages to send a mental warning to the Hulk  this comes during the brief period where Rick can command him. So the Hulk arrives, and so do the FBI, the Circus gets busted up and the Ringmaster gets arrested. And like all good Hulk stories, it ends with the Hulk escaping while Thunderbolt Ross shakes his fist. 

Doctor Doom: Doctor Doom is such a stereotype. I know, he gets past that later on. But I think I prefer him in this incarnation. Its like hes so much the stereotype that he transcends the stereotype. He has a pet vulture, and he plays with chess pieces of the FF! So here he is, in all his goblet-crushing, Richards-cursing glory. 
Doctor Doom is played up as the ultimate threat from his first appearance in Fantastic Four #5. Reed already knows him, and its obvious that hes scared. What do we learn about Doom here? Victor Von Doom experiments in college with black magic and technology; one of his experiments blows up and scars his face. Hes expelled from college, and goes off to Tibet seeking more dark secrets. Thats it, but as we all know its a very cool framework thats been expanded to good effect. 
So Doom returns, and kidnaps the FF by dropping a giant net over the Baxter Building. Even here, he does nothing small. He takes the FF back to his Evil Fortress and holds Sue prisoner, while he sends the rest of them back in time to retrieve Blackbeards treasure chest. (Oh yeah, he has a helicopter with a sharks head painted on the front. And he sits on his throne petting a tiger. Did I mention hes Evil?) 
When the FF return with the chest (after hijinks in the past that reveal the Thing IS Blackbeard), Doom reveals his master plan: the treasure contains magic gems that once belonged to Merlin, that make their wielder invincible. But, the FF have tricked him, for they returned with the chest, but not its contents, the sneaky bastards! So the Thing fights Doom and wallops him, but wait  its the very first Doombot! If only Stan and Jack knew then what a can of worms THIS would open up 
To wrap it up, Sue saves the FF, they escape from Dooms castle, he shakes his fist at them and escapes with a jetpack. How on Earth were they ever going to top this? 
By teaming him up with the Sub-Mariner, of course! For a more thorough discussion of this issues plot, see Sub-Mariners entry below. Dooms plan to hurl the FF into the sun once again proves that he doesnt think small, but hes a smaller presence in the issue than Namor, and most of his vulture-owning style has gone. The issue ends with Namor driving Doom away, and Doom escaping on a passing asteroid. Never to be seen again? Nah 

Egghead: Im not sure what to make of Egghead at this point. Hes just a guy with a big head, literally and figuratively. Its rumoured that hes been selling atomic secrets to the highest bidder, so the US government fires him. Some criminals hire him to take out Ant Man, and thus a Marvel Comic is born! 
I like Eggheads plan. Hes a smart guy. He sees that Ant Man can communicate with ants, so he invents a way to communicate with ants, and tries to use some fast-talking to turn them against their superhero buddy. 
The ants lure Ant Man into a trap, but he doesnt stay trapped for long: the ants were onto Eggheads plot, and told Ant Man what was up. Apparently, ants are his partners in the war against crime! Muggings and purse-snatchings are up in the ants nests, I hear. 
So Egghead goes to jail, and hes shattered because hes been outsmarted by ants. Not bad. Hes Ant Mans best villain so far, at any rate. 

Loki: Loki makes but one appearance this year, in Journey Into Mystery #85, but its easy to see hes going to be the breakout Thor villain. 
Just take his first ever scene. Hes trapped in a tree! Condemned by the gods! Why? I dunno, but he has to be a bad mother if they went to the trouble of sticking him in a tree for centuries. The set-up is that he cant escape until someone sheds a tear for his plight. And here comes Heimdall! Heimdalls not going to cry for Loki, but the god of mischief has an idea. He causes a leaf to fall, right in Heimdalls eye, which makes him cry. Ingeeeenious. 
So, Loki now seeks revenge on Thor, but first he cruises the city in a Kirby-style hat and suit, and the art makes it look like hes scoping out chicks. Mischief, indeed He cant find Thor, but Thor comes to him after hes turned a few people black-and-white. Nobody turns people black-and-white in Thors city! Loki is so tough that even the narrator warns Thor to be careful. Its a short confrontation  Loki hypnotises Thor and tricks him into dropping Mjolnir. But without Mjolnir, Thor reverts to Don Blake, who is not Thor, and thus not hypnotised! Blake retrieves Mjolnir, and chases Loki as Thor, while Loki escapes via pigeon. The chase leads into the subway, where Loki pushes people onto the railroad tracks just because he can. He cant escape for long, though, even on a winged horse, as Thor beans him with a bit of steel pipe. Loki gets knocked underwater, which makes him powerless, and Thor sends him back to Asgard for punishment. And look, its Odin and Balder and Tyr, or at least the back of their heads: a Marvel Milestone! Man, Loki rocks. 

Miracle Man: No, not the Alan Moore creation. I doubt this Miracle Man would ever be the subject of a rights dispute 
The third foe the FF ever faced could apparently do anything. So, he embarks on a mad plan to steal an atomic powered tank using a gigantic monster prop. As it turns out, hes nothing more than a hypnotist, which really doesnt fit with some of the miracles he makes everyone think hes performing You guessed it, he doesnt appear for the remainder of 62. 

Mole Man: The Mole Man makes a single appearance, as the villain of Fantastic Four #1: the first Marvel villain ever! Hes just an ugly guy, who gets ridiculed so much that he abandons humanity and stumbles across a cave that leads to the centre of the Earth. Hes caught in an avalanche that costs him most of his sight, and stranded below ground, but he masters the creatures that live in the deep and learns to sense things in the dark. His plan is to destroy every atomic plant and source of energy on the planet, and then lead his monsters in an invasion of the surface. His monsters are cool. I want some. Hes also very handy with a stick, as he beats the tar out of Reed. Hes beaten in the end, however, and is yet to return 

Puppet Master: The Puppet Master is one bad dude. For the first test of his radioactive clay, he makes some random guy jump off a bridge. It doesnt work because the guy is saved by the Torch, but man, thats cold. 
The Puppet Master makes his first and only appearance for 1962 in Fantastic Four #8. As demonstrated above, I find him a bit creepier as a villain than the likes of Doctor Doom. His debut here makes for a pretty cool story. 
The Puppet Master at this point is a power-hungry puppeteer who has stumbled across some radioactive clay that he can use to control people. He has a blind step-daughter named Alicia who will go on to become the Things girlfriend, but not just yet. 
During the test run of his clay, the Puppet Masters finger was burnt, and he deduced that only the Human Torch could have done such a thing! In revenge for his finger (or possibly as a way to get the FF out of his road to power) the Puppet Master takes control of the Thing and captures Sue Storm. In one of lifes less likely coincidences, it turns out that Sue and Alicia are near-identical, so the Puppet Master sends his daughter to infiltrate the FF, along with the Thing to destroy them. The plan fails, because Reed has developed a serum that can turn the Thing back into Ben Grimm, if only temporarily. 
Theres some messing about with the Puppet Master manipulating a jailbreak, but its all a bit beside the point. While the FF are distracted by that, hes off making a puppet of himself with a crown on. Alicia knocks it out of his hands, and this causes him to fall out of a window to his death. Luckily Bens there so shell have a shoulder to cry on 
Good story, and a good villain. Wonder if hell ever show up again? 

Sub-Mariner: Unless you count the Human Torch, this is Marvels first Golden Age revival, in Fantastic Four #4. 
The Human Torch finds him as an amnesiac bum, complete with shaggy beard (which the Torch shaves off with an ignited finger!). But, as Johnny discovers, just add water and presto! Youve got one regally pissed off undersea monarch who, after discovering that Atlantis has been decimated by atomic testing, decides to wreck New York with a really big whale-monster. 
In Marvels first year, no villain was as cool as the Sub-Mariner, and thats supported by the fact that he appears three times in nine issues. Hes got some depth from the beginning, as opposed to Doom, who at this point is still a ranting stereotype. The sexual tension with Sue is great, and only gets better, and its even apparent that he could one day be a hero instead of a villain. No doubt Subbies depth is in part due to the fact that he already existed prior to the Silver Age. 
In his second appearance, Fantastic Four #6, the Sub-Mariner is approached by Doctor Doom, and asked to help destroy the Fantastic Four. Neither trusts the other, but an unholy alliance is formed! Namor helps Doom to rocket the Baxter Building into outer space, but he is betrayed, and trapped along with the FF in their skyscraper death trap. Thus, another alliance is formed, between the FF and Namor! Its a great story, with the FF as the good guys, Doom as the evil guy, and Namor somewhere in between. The highlight of Marvel in 1962, and the first real sense that these guys were onto something. 
Subbies final appearance for the year was in Fantastic Four #9, and its a bit odd. Reed has driven the FF into bankruptcy, the dolt, so the Sub-Mariner tells them that hell finance a movie to help them out of debt. He could have just left them to retire, but never mind. Its really a plot to kill off the male members of the FF so that he can propose to Sue, which Im sure makes sense in Atlantis. Reeds battle against the Cyclops from Homers Odyssey is sorta cool, Johnnys battle against a fireproof African tribe is sorta daft, and the Things battle against Namor is sorta awesome. Too bad the finale copped out, though 
Power-wise, Namor is presented here with super-strength and flight. He also has all the powers of various kinds of fish, including electric shocks and sonar. Can he still do that? 

Wizard: The Wizard, the worlds smartest man, makes his debut in Strange Tales #102? Yep. And take that Reed Richards, the Wizard is the worlds smartest man! Says so right in this issue. Hes invented a chair made of air! Hes the worlds greatest chess player, hes invented an ultra-modern house, and hes an escape artist par excellence! Only one challenge remains for him: to defeat the Human Torch! (As opposed to Thor, or something.) Im not convinced of the Wizards genius, really. If he cant figure out the Torchs identity, perhaps he should stick to inventing air-chairs. (And he doesnt have his anti-grav disks yet.) 
So the Wizards plot is to engineer an accident where he gets caught in a cave-in while trying to drill to the Earths core. When the Torch shows up to help, the Wizard invites him back to his ULTRA-MODERN house and captures him. (At this point, a kid with a super-soaker could capture the Torch) While the Wizard impersonates the Torch to do evil deeds, the Torch escapes. 
Eventually they have another confrontation, where the Wizard taunts Johnny with photographic proof of him impersonating the Torch. With the help of an invisible Sue Storm, Johnny makes the Wizard think that he has telekinesis, and uses it to snatch the photos before the Wizard can burn them (its really Sue doing the snatching). And so, the Wizard is hauled off to jail, having been outsmarted by a punk kid. 
I like the Wizard. Hes arrogant. Hes got a defining flaw, and that puts him a notch above the more generic bad guys. 

Zarrko the Tomorrow Man: Hey, its Kang! Only not as cool! 
Get this: Zarrko lives in the 23rd Century. Its all peaceful, and he wants to conquer the world, so he decides to travel back in time to get his hands on a nuke, because 20th century technology is more advanced militarily than 23rd. Thats the set-up for Journey Into Mystery #86. 
In the past, or the now as it was, Thor is helping the US government test nukes by standing right in the middle of the detonations. Zarrko pops up, nicks a nuke and buggers off back to the future. 
Thors not happy, so he beseeches Odin to send him in pursuit. Cue cool Kirby Odin head-shot, you know the kind, the sort that takes up the whole page and makes him seem mega-powerful. Zarrkos already conquered the Earth in record time, but Thor battles his way past robots and mirrors and stuff to retrieve the nuke. Zarrko cops it in an explosion, and loses his memory. Thor goes back to the 20th Century. The end. 
Zarrkos a bit crap, really. Has anyone just merged him and Kang as characters yet? 

Alien Invasions: The Marvel Universe was a bit light on for alien invasions in 1962  only three. Four if you count invaders from other dimensions, and five if you count aliens kidnapping the FF to help save their own planet. 
The first invasion comes from those perennial pests the Skrulls, in Fantastic Four #2. The Skrulls are evil alien shape shifters. Seeing that the FF are their biggest obstacle to world domination, they send four spies to impersonate them, and frame them for criminal activities. The plan works at first, but eventually the FF fight back and capture the spies. Reed knows what to do with them: turn them into cows! Hes not genius for nothing, folks. 
But theres still a Skrull armada hovering over Earth ready to dispense toasty destruction. Reeds genius plan #2? Fly up to the mothership pretending to be the Skrull spies. Show these Skrulls clippings from old issues of Strange Tales, and hope against hope that Skrulls cant identify a Kirby drawing on sight. Hey it works. Like I said, genius. 
Next up came the terrible Toad Men, in Incredible Hulk #2. They look like toads, and want to conquer Earth. Why? I dunno. Comes with the territory. 
The Toad Mens plan is to kidnap the worlds most advanced scientific brain so that they can gauge just how advanced our technology is. Their computers lead them to Bruce Banner, so either their computers suck, or Reed Richards is all hype. They take Banner to their command ship, and inevitably he turns into the Hulk and starts smashing stuff. Hes a bit vicious, though. Watch him turn a Toad Mans gun on his comrades, and contemplate wiping out mankind! Hulk Love Beans this ain't. 
For once Thunderbolt Ross does something useful, and knocks the ship out of the sky with some missiles. Banner is found alive inside the wreckage, but some Toad Men survived the crash as well. They signal the fleet to attack! Ships swarm over a major metropolis, and Marvel Earth gets its first taste of alien invasion hysteria. 
But its Banner to the rescue! He just happens to have a big gamma cannon lying around, and he shoots the entire fleet of Toad Men with it, driving them off. Sure the plan worked, but I cant help thinking that theyll return as Toad Hulks or something 
The third alien invasion for the year came from the Stone Men from Saturn, in Journey Into Mystery #83. Much like the Toad Men, their name tells you all you need to know: theyre Stone Men. From Saturn. Who want to conquer Earth. They do look cool, however, and they have the honour of being Thors first enemies. 
I have to give the Stone Men credit for one thing: they launched their invasion in Norway, not New York. It was just pure luck that Don Blake showed up and became Thor. They dont get much credit after that, though. Its obvious that Thors too much for them. Next time, they should invade Ant Mans title. 
The next aliens to contact Earth, in Fantastic Four #7, were from Planet X (home of the shaving cream atom). Planet X is about to be destroyed, but they cant evacuate the planet, because they only have two space ships. Their master Kurrgo has a cunning plan  he will send a robot to Earth to kidnap the FF, and then Mr. Fantastic can solve their problem! Despite all appearances to the contrary, it turns out to be a very good plan. Reed shrinks the entire populace of Planet X so that they can fit in their two ships. The mans a GENIUS! Kurrgo tries to hoard the gas that will return everyone to normal size for himself, but hes been fooled  the gas is fake! And so, loaded down with canisters, he doesnt make it to the ship to escape before the planet blows up. Yknow, if Reed hadnt pulled that dirty trick with the fake growing gas, the guy might have lived 
The final invasion, in Strange Tales #103, came from the 5th Dimension. This one starts oddly. Some builder is trying to erect houses on swampland, and they keep sinking. Johnny Storm, obviously bored, decides to investigate, and discovers that its the handiwork of aliens trying to stop people from discovering a portal to their dimension in the swamp. (Portals in the swamp, eh? Reminds me of Man-Thing.) 
Johnny is captured and taken to the 5th Dimension, where he sees an army waiting to invade Earth. He also sees a hot chick who falls for him at first sight, of course. Chick rescues him, and Johnny fights army. 
Its lucky these guys showed up in Strange Tales, because each and every one of their weapons is asbestos-coated. Fire-proof tanks. Asbestos bullets. It doesnt help, in the end, but the fight would have been pretty short if Iceman had shown up. The Torch overthrows the government in record time, and returns home. Not even the pleas of his new groupie Valeria can get him to stay in the 5th Dimension (I guess hes not into bright pink chicks). 

Commie Scum: The Communists of the 1960s were nothing if not persistent. Here are all of their insidious schemes of 1962. Strap yourselves in, this could take a while. 
The first Communist plot came in Incredible Hulk #1. Bruce Banners lab assistant Igor (honestly would you trust him?) is really a spy, trying to gain the secrets of the Gamma Bomb. Its actually he who is responsible for creating the Hulk, as he detonates the bomb in an attempt to kill Banner. That proves his downfall, though, as it is the Hulk who ultimately beats the crap out of Igor to stop him getting the gamma bomb plans. 
Igor doesnt give up, though. From his prison cell, he contacts Russia through a transmitter hidden in his fingernail. This gets the attention of the Gargoyle, a deformed yet super-intelligent guy who was transformed by radiation. The Gargoyle goes to America and captures the Hulk, planning to make a whole army like him. He even lives up to his superintelligence by figuring out that Banner is the Hulk! This revelation gets to the Gargoyle, who wonders why anyone would want to be a freak like him. Banner makes a deal  he will cure the Gargoyle if he sets them free. The Gargoyle agrees, and helps Banner get back to the States. His last act as a free man is to commit suicide, blowing up his own base and taking a whole lot of dirty Commies with him. 
In San Diablo, another Communist called the Executioner is attempting a coup. This happens in Journey Into Mystery #84, so its Thors turn to beat up some Reds. Don Blake decides to go there, with the cover story of helping out as a doctor. The Executioner is proven evil, because he eats chicken while ordering an underling shot, but it doesnt help him much against Thor. Theres some brief shenanigans with Don Blake and Jane Foster in danger, but the power of a Norse God proves stronger than the power of a South American dictator. Was it ever really in doubt? 
Back in Russia, in Tales to Astonish #35, the Communists are at it again. Henry Pyms almost completed a formula to make people immune to radiation, and the Russkies want it. Too bad for them hes also completed his Ant Man get-up. He and his ant friends beat up the Russians in record time. Its embarrassing, really. 
They dont give up, though. This time, in Strange Tales #101, the Human Torch stumbles across a Russian plot in his home town of Glenville. A guy named the Destroyer is sabotaging the rides at a local amusement park. It turns out that hes a Commie, and that the rides provided a perfect view of the bay where his comrades submarine was hidden. Good ol Torchy, protecting the free world! 
Never giving up, the Russians decide to take their revenge on Ant Man in Tales to Astonish #36, by calling in Comrade X, their best espionage agent! His mission is to get ahold of Ant Mans reducing formula. 
At that moment in the US, a woman contacts Ant Man asking for help. She is a former lover of Comrade X who dumped her for another woman, and she wants to betray him to Ant Man. She gives Ant Man directions to Comrade Xs hideout. Ant Man goes there and defeats Comrade X, only to unmask him as Madame X? The very same woman who had hired him! Those devious Reds! (Hmmm. You know, it would be really easy to say that this is actually the Black Widow) 
But now, prepare for their most elaborate plan yet! In a US city, an alien named Mongu lands and challenges Earths mightiest mortal in hand-to-hand combat. If Mongu wins, his race will attack. If he loses, his race will depart. Bruce Banner turns himself into the Hulk (the version that retains his intelligence) and accepts the challenge. 
But wait! Mongu is no alien! Hiding inside him is Russian mastermind Boris Monguski, and his plan is to kidnap the Hulk for experiments. Alas, Boris and his cohorts dont last long against a pissed off Hulk. 
The last Communist hurrah of 1962 comes in Journey Into Mystery #87. The Russians have been kidnapping American scientists with mind-control gas, and having them write letters saying theyve defected (you know, theyd save themselves all sorts of trouble if theyd just educate their own damn scientists). Don Blake decides to put a stop to this, and gets himself captured. Despite some brief trouble from a school of sharks, and being forced to surrender to save the scientists, Thor escapes and kicks seven shades of crap out of the Russians. Will they never learn? 

CHARACTER ROUND-UP On the hero side of things, 1961 and 1962 were very fruitful. Weve got the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, the Hulk, Ant Man, and Thor. Thats a pretty fine line up, and youd be hard-pressed to find another year with better creations than this one. 
Supporting characters do well too. For the FF weve got Alicia Masters. Spider-Man has Aunt May. The Hulk has Rick Jones, Thunderbolt Ross and Betty Ross. Thor has Jane Foster, Odin, Balder, Heimdall and Tyr. Theyre all characters that remain active for years and years to come. 
The villains are mixed. For the FF, we see the creation of the Mole Man, Doctor Doom, Namor, the Puppet Master, and the Skrulls. It doesnt get much more classic than that, and covers most of their great villains. Ant Man faces off against Egghead, who would go on to cause him lots of trouble in the early 80s. Thors only classic villain is Loki, his best, though Zarrko becomes a recurring foe as well. The Hulk fights the Circus of Crime, ubiquitous Marvel villains, but his other opponents are pretty weak. The FF do well, but the rest are scraping the barrel at the moment. 

QUESTIONSI thought of a few questions while reading these issues, so Ill ask them here: 

1) Was the horn that Namor used in Fantastic Four #4 to summon Giganto ever found again? 

2) What about Merlins gems from Fantastic Four #5? 

3) Rick Jones is an orphan, as stated in Incredible Hulk #1. Has he ever found his parents? 

4) Have the miniaturised inhabitants of Planet X, from Fantastic Four #7, ever been revisited? 

5) At the start of Journey Into Mystery #85, Loki has been stuck inside a tree by the gods. Has it ever been revealed why? Also, this issue shows that he loses his powers underwater. Is this still the case? 

6) In Fantastic Four #9, Mr. Fantastic fights the Cyclops of legend. Has this guy ever appeared since?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 06:35 am    
By jephyork
Director

Nice post! And hey, I actually know one of these... 

Quote: 
1) Was the horn that Namor used in Fantastic Four #4 to summon Giganto ever found again? 

Yep -- in New Mutants #76. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 08:18 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 
1) Was the horn that Namor used in Fantastic Four #4 to summon Giganto ever found again? 

Fantastic Four #219 
Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 

2) What about Merlins gems from Fantastic Four #5? 

Dazzler #3, of all places 

Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 

4) Have the miniaturised inhabitants of Planet X, from Fantastic Four #7, ever been revisited? 

Marvel Feature #11 did a quick follow-up on the inhabitants, but focused mainly on Kurrgo. 

Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 

6) In Fantastic Four #9, Mr. Fantastic fights the Cyclops of legend. Has this guy ever appeared since? 

Maybe. No one has ever said anything like, "Hey, you look like the guy that Mr. Fantastic fought in that S-M Productions movie!" but there are two similar characters in Tales of Suspense #10 and Sub-Mariner #29.

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 10:34 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

But Kurrgo's dead! Did they bring him back, or was it more of a retrospective thing?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 31 Mar 2005 11:23 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Check Kurrgo's chronology for a hint... 


watching: seinfeld

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Posted: 05 Jun 2005 04:47 am    
By rhod

Are there more parts of this thread to follow , or are they somewhere else on the web? Or are they yet to be written?

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 10:17 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Yet to be written, I'm afraid. More professional writing concerns have been taking my time (my illustrated children's book, for one - coming in late 2005!) I'll get back to this at some point soon, though, because I really enjoyed doing this one.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Thread 62

Posted: 06 Jun 2005 03:15 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 6/8
By ADMINISTRATOR

Marvel books that ship this week: 

DISTRICT X #14 
GRAVITY #1 
LAST HERO STANDING #2 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #15 
MARVEL NEMESIS IMPERFECTS #2 
MARY JANE HOMECOMING #4 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #9 
NEW WARRIORS #1 
PULSE #9 
PUNISHER #22 
TOXIN #3 
ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR #19 
ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #78 
X-MEN #171 
X-MEN THE END HEROES AND MARTYRS #4 


Marvel announces that 

KABUKI REFLECTIONS BOOK 5 is $5.99, not $4.99; 

ULTIMATES 2: GODS & MONSTERS TP is 152 pages, not 144; 

ACADEMY X: X-POSED TP has been removed from the schedule; 

UNCANNY X-MEN: MOST DANGEROUS GAME TP will be 104 pages, not 96; 

ACADEMY X: HAUNTED TP is $12.99, not $14.99; 

new shipping date for GOLDEN AGE SUB-MARINER MASTERWORK: 6/22; 

new shipping date for CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL. 2 MASTERWORK: 6/29. 


watching: catherine cryer

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 04:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Two things: 

- I think that's "ULTIMATE X-Men: Most Dangerous Game". 

- and an FYI to "New X-Men: Academy X" fans -- the "X-Posed" TPB *is* the "Haunted" TPB. Sort of. Marvel originally solicited New X-Men's second TPB as "vol.2: X-Posed", collecting #7-12. Now they've decided to bump #12 to the next TPB -- so they lowered the price and changed the name of vol.2. It's now called "Haunted", collecting #7-11, and New X-Men vol.3 will collect #12-15 and be called "X-Posed". 

Phew. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 06:38 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I think that's "ULTIMATE X-Men: Most Dangerous Game". 
<<<

Interesting. Diamond's site says it's "UNCANNY"; then again, I suppose they're hardly mistake-free. 


watching: nancy grace

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Posted: 07 Jun 2005 10:26 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm pretty sure it's Ultimate. "Most Dangerous Game" was the Longshot/Mojo storyline, wasn't it?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 63

Posted: 07 Jun 2005 05:15 pm    Post subject: Cage = Ace of Spades???
By garbonzo

The Secret War Secret Files of nick Fury lists one of Cage's aliases as "the Ace of Spades." Now, I have most of his appearances. I'm hoping someone who has the dozen or so I am missing can fill me in. When does he go by that lame-ass name? 

the only time I recall is in Powerman #17 when he is trying to come up with a new name for himself. He toys with the idea of being TAOS but decides that it sounds "too ethnic." Anyone know when he actually uses Ace of Spades? 

garbonzo

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Thread 64

Posted: 13 Jun 2005 08:20 pm    Post subject: Shipping this week: 6/13
By ADMINISTRATOR

Shipping from Marvel this week: 

CABLE DEADPOOL #16 
DAREDEVIL #74 
GAMBIT #12 
GIANT-SIZE X-MEN #3 
GLA #3 
HERCULES #3 
LAST HERO STANDING #3 
MARVEL ADVENTURES FANTASTIC FOUR #1 
MARVEL KNIGHTS 4 #19 
POWER PACK #4 
POWERS #11 
SPIDER-MAN BREAKOUT #3 
STORMBREAKER SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #6 
UNCANNY X-MEN #461 
WOLVERINE #29 

Marvel announces that: 

the cover artist for Giant-Size Spider-Woman #1 will be Andrea Divito, not Rick Mays; 

Captain America: Out of Time hardcover will be 168 pages, not 176. 


watching: headline news

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 10:21 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I thought the House of M miniseries was shipping bi-weekly? Should I be scared of this becoming another Secret War? (or at least another Age of Apocolypse...had to wait a few extra weeks to get the ending to that one)....
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 14 Jun 2005 06:07 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Nope, HOUSE OF M #2 was always scheduled for next week, three weeks after issue #1.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 65

Posted: 23 Jun 2005 11:37 am    Post subject: Marvel Writer/Artist Exclusives...
By Kevin W.
Director

Can someone provide a list of all Writers and Artists who have signed exclusively with Marvel? I'm trying to keep track of all writers and artists who have gone "the exclusive route"...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 66

Posted: 24 Jun 2005 10:18 pm    Post subject: The Thing
By stevesacre79

Okay, I know this question is kind of weird but I'm hoping someone here will know the answer. My roommate (for God can only guess why) wants to know what type of rock The Thing's skin is made out of. Does anyone out there know? Thanks.

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Posted: 24 Jun 2005 10:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

It's made of hardened, mutated skin. Isn't it? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Jun 2005 10:51 pm    
By garbonzo

It has always been referred to as a "rocky hide" as opposed to being actual rock. Although in the most recent issue of FF it was indicated that the skin has the same properties as rock (i.e. it crumbles as opposed to flexing). 

garbonzo 

p.s. I still want to know what happened to that fifth finger!

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Thread 67

Posted: 28 Jun 2005 08:33 am    Post subject: House of M
By Jhaeman

Kay, I've been hearing tons of rumors about House of M and its potential effect on continuity. Can anyone sum up what we know so far through the comics or interviews with creators? Is this akin to DC's Crisis, the failed Heroes Reborn, the Ultimates line, or something completely different?

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 10:36 am    
By Somebody

I'm expecting the effect to be akin to the mass-mindwipe (and changing of printed, etc citations) of the Flash's ID in Flash 200. There's not going to be any retroactive changes as such, but people will forget stuff, etc.

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Thread 68

Posted: 23 Jun 2005 08:14 am    Post subject: Coming from Marvel in September
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Via Millarworld, here's the text solicits. 
It's a surprisingly busy month. Highlights... 

- HOUSE OF M continues in HOUSE OF M #7 - yes, they're saving issue #8 for next mont. And it crosses over into SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #4, WOLVERINE #33 (beginning a three-part arc by Daniel Way), UNCANNY X-MEN #464, IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #3, INCREDIBLE HULK #86, FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #3, MUTOPIA X #3, NEW X-MEN #18 and EXILES #69-70. 

- ULTIMATE SECRET resumes, with Tom Raney drawing. 

- GHOST RIDER #1 (of 6) - Garth Ennis (?!) and Clayton Crain. Marvel Knights. 

- BLACK WIDOW 2 #1 (of 6) - Richard Morgan, Sean Phillips and Bill Sienkiewicz. Sequel to the last one. Marvel Knights. 

- BLACK PANTHER #8 crosses over with X-MEN #175. 

- THE SENTRY #1 (of 8) - Paul Jenkins and John Romita Jr. Guest starring the Avengers and, er, Attuma and Terrax. 

- THE FANTASTIC FOUR PRESENTS FRANKLIN RICHARDS: SON OF A GENIUS (one-shot) - collection of the Franklin Richards stories from the POWER PACK mini, with a new story about Fraknlin and Herbie at Hallowe'en. 

- DRAX THE DESTROYER #1 (of 4) - Er, because you demanded it? Keith Giffen and Mitch Breitweiser. Lunatik's in it. 

- MARVEL TEAM-UP #12, remarkably, "sets the stage for future Marvel Team-Up arcs coming in the next year." Have they not seen the sales figures? 

- THOR: BLOOD OATH #1 (of 6) - Mike Oeming and Scott Kolins. Don't get excited, it's set in the past. 

- MARVEL MILESTONES pays tribute to the Champions of Los Angeles, of all people, although not by actually running a Champions story, which would just be crazy talk. It's Marvel Spotlight #5 (first Ghost Rider), Daredevil #81 (Black Widow's first team-up with Daredevil), and, er, the Iceman back-up strip about his powers from X-Men vol 1 #47 (well, it's the right length). 

- PULSE #11 guest stars the FF, the new Avengers, and Carol Danvers. 

- OFFICIAL HANDBOOK - Alternate worlds. 

- X-MEN: COLOSSUS - BLOODLINE #1 (of 5). David Hine and Jorge Lucas. 

- SUPREME POWER: HYPERION #1 (of 5). J Michael Straczynski and Dan Jurgens. One of two books bridging the gap between the SUPREME POWER Max series and the Marvel Knights relaunch. Strangely enough, it's still a Max book, even though the whole point of the relaunch is that the Max name is (supposedly) bad for sales. 

- SUPREME POWER: NIGHTHAWK #1 (of 5). Daniel Way and Steve Dillon. (Yes, incredibly it's a Straczynski spin-off project not written by Fiona Avery or Samm Barnes.) 

- PUNISHER #25. Contrary to speculation, the current arc isn't the last, and the book begins a new six-parter. 

- Hardback edition of BLACK PANTHER #1-6. They're kidding, surely? 

- Hardback edition of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, volume 6. Rather more sensible. 

- MARVEL MASTERWORKS: CAPTAIN MARVEL, volume 1. Collects the first nine issues of his solo series, plus MARVEL SUPER-HEROES #12 and #13. 

- MARVEL MASTERWORKS: GOLDEN AGE HUMAN TORCH, collecting issues #2 to #5a. Because there wasn't an issue #1, and there were two issue #5s. Includes all the non-Torch strips. 

- PUNISHER MAX vol 1 hardcover. 

- AVENGERS: THE SERPENT CROWN gets a trade paperback. Um... that's a bit out of nowhere. 

- ESSENTIAL SPIDER-MAN volume 7, collecting AMAZING #138-160, Annual #10 and Giant-Size #3-5. 

- ESSENTIAL GHOST RIDER, volume 1. MARVEL SPOTLIGHT #5-12, GHOST RIDER #1-20 and DAREDEVIL #138.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Jun 2005 09:23 am    
By Ross

While I'm happy to see those old Captain Marvel stories coming back into print, I find myself wondering what Marvel's criteria are for doing a Masterworks reprint, as opposed to an Essential reprint. 

Instead of hoping to get all the old Captain Marvels packed into a couple Essential volumes, we're basically being sent the message that seeing all of the Captain Marvel stuff in print will be a loooong time coming (if ever) since the Masterworks come out less frequently and reprint fewer issues at a time. 

Marvel did this with Namor, too - he got a Masterworks volume but not an Essential (much to my chagrin). 

Any thoughts as to why they would choose a Masterworks and not an Essential in this case? Maybe because Captain Marvel is more of a marquis character and the Masterworks format is nicer? But then, why do they go the Essential route for other major players (Human Torch, for example)?

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Posted: 23 Jun 2005 12:47 pm  
By rhod

I think Marvel's intention is to release Masterworks of a character to try and get us to shell out 25 (sorry don't know how much they cost in $!) for 10 issues, before releasing the Essential of the same character, which reprints 20-25 issues for 10. 
The reason Human Torch stories didn't get Masterworks is, frankly, cos they're rubbish and they only got an Essential because it was the last superhero title from the early 60's that hadn't been reprinted yet. 

PS I too am waiting for Essential Namor, and Nick Fury aswell, but I suspect it may be a long wait.

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Posted: 23 Jun 2005 04:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
- DRAX THE DESTROYER #1 (of 4) - Er, because you demanded it? Keith Giffen and Mitch Breitweiser. Lunatik's in it. 
<<<

 All right. Who's the wiseguy who demanded this? 


watching: lou dobbs

Last edited by Administrator on 24 Jun 2005 08:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 24 Jun 2005 10:03 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Keith Giffen and Mitch Breitweiser?

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Posted: 24 Jun 2005 11:18 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

|Hunh|. Twice as many as I thought. 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 11:20 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

For solicitations with actual cover images attached, you can click here! 

They actually play it smart and don't post the cover to Mutopia X #3, (the solicitation asks you not to look at the cover, which is always a definite way to get someone to actually look at the cover)!
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Jun 2005 09:31 am    Post subject: Sticking a toe in the analysis waters...
By BobMM

I've been using the site as a resource for several years, occasionally posting to the message boards, and I figure it's well past time that I contribute something. The focus of my collection is the Thunderbolts, so that's where I'm best informed. From the MCP listings, it looks like Thunderbolts analyses have only gone as far as issue #64. I thought I could start with #65 and see how it goes. 

So...do I just start? Or is there some process for claiming books to avoid duplication of effort?

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Posted: 30 Jun 2005 10:39 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

There's not a "dibs" list. Alerting everyone to your intent to post is your option, if you want to save either yourself, or someone else, wasted time. But there's no formal process. Be aware that I personally have already analyzed TB 65-68 and it's been added to chronologies, but it won't be publically available until the next update (this weekend, I hope). In any case, though, I'd welcome your insights. You could well notice something I've overlooked. 


watching: halloween

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Thread 70

Posted: 30 Jun 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Kang's POV
By Col_Fury

I've been toying with the idea for a while now, but would it be possible to construct a chronolgy of Kang from his point of view? Through various flashbacks and such over the years we've been able to learn some things that led him to become Kang, or Rama-Tut, or Immortus, or whatever, but is there enough reference to piece it together? We know what his chronology is from 'our' perspective, but what order did he do it in? I'm assuming he didn't visit the Avengers in the order we experienced it in.... I think you get the point. 

Heck, I don't even know if he's still a descendant of Doom anymore. 

And if this has already been covered, I apologize up front.

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Posted: 30 Jun 2005 06:18 am    
By jephyork
Director

Kang's MCP chronology is from "his point of view". Or at least it's meant to be. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Jun 2005 09:33 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Heck, I don't even know if he's still a descendant of Doom anymore. 
<<<


This has been disproven for years, actually. Although it's still not 100% verified, he's more likely a descendant of Nathaniel Richards -- Mr. Fantastic's father.

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Posted: 30 Jun 2005 04:10 pm    
By Col_Fury

Ah, now I remember the Richards thing, thanks. 

As for everything else, I sat down and re-read Avengers Forever(paying particular attention to #9), and most of my questions have been answered. For the most part. Time travel's so dang confusing sometimes! What I'm trying to place now, is, his 'appearances' in Young Avengers. #6 should help things, hopefully.
