	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Fantastic Four: Foes #6
2. Wolverine:Soultaker & Jubilee placements?
3. Pulse #9 references
4. JLA/Avengers
5. Nightcrawler/Wolverine Question
6. UX #460 sheds light on X-chronology!
7. Correction Debate Question?
8. Franklin Richards
9. Marvel Girl, Beast, and the Atlantis Attacks Annuals
10. Marvel Time
11. Recent Spider-man Chronology
12. Solarman; canon?
13. Satan; Marduk Kurios as opposed to Mephisto
14. Original Ghost Rider #20
15. Six Months...
16. UX 1-11 corrections.
17. The Canonicity of Intercompany Crossovers - My 2 Cents
18. Ben Reilly and Spider-Man Team-Up 3
19. Weapon X: Days of Future Now #1 [spoilers]
20. Amazing Spider-man 8 - 2 placement
21. Albert Devoor in FF#263?
22. Dr. Doom Dilemma
23. A 13-FB ???
24. Namor - The Sub-Mariner Annual 2
25. Daredevil #71-75: Placement Help?
26. Gambit/ Candra first appearance
27. Webspinners Tales of Spider-Man
28. Morgan note; gangsters question
29. Jubilee and Wolverine: Soultaker

	2099 Forum
30. X-Men 2099 Oasis placement

	Issue Analysis Forum
31. Chronology Review for Wolverine: Soultaker LS
32. Analysis of Tomb of Dracula LS
33. Silver Surfer: Homecoming (October 1991, gaphic novel)
34. Elektra: The Hand #1-5
35. Marvel Adventures: a Jack in the Box Exclusive!
36. Jubilee #1-5
37. Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #4
38. Fantastic Four:The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #3
39. Call for Analyses
40. The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1-6

	Chat Forum

41. excalibur 13, 14
42. "Crack the Internet in Half" (Possible Spoilers)
43. Quick question
44. finding comic book art
45. Coming from Marvel in October




Thread 1

Posted: 30 Jun 2005 03:03 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four: Foes #6
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Just some minor character ID questions... 

Page 3, panel 2: who's the guy in the doorway next to Dragon Man? 

Page 4, panel 2: the guy in the armour to the left of Diablo? 

Page 5 panel 2: the topless guy with the chain around him?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

Last edited by Paul O'Brien on 01 Jul 2005 03:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 30 Jun 2005 05:26 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

If someone out there could provide scans of just those panels, even folks without the books might be able to help. 


watching: the giant gila monster

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Posted: 01 Jul 2005 12:58 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Occulus, Hydro-Man (in his recent Wieringo-designed outfit) and Mahkizmo respectively.

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Posted: 01 Jul 2005 01:32 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Thanks!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 2

Posted: 28 Jun 2005 12:18 am    Post subject: Wolverine:Soultaker & Jubilee placements?
By Col_Fury

In short: Soultaker starts with Logan in Japan to check up on his adoptive daughter, but he ends up fighting ninjas instead. In issue 3 of the Jubilee series, Jubilee returns a phone call to Wolverine, but interrupts him fighting ninjas that look suspiciously like the ninjas in Soultaker. Sure they're red in Soultaker & black in Jubilee, but they look similar enough in costume design that we could chalk them up to being in the shadows for that panel. 

I'm suggesting that Jubilee #3, page 12 panel 4 takes place during Soultaker #1 between pages 16 & 17. The break in action between these pages has a slight "beat", so I feel this phone call could fit in rather nicely. This also eliminates yet another run-in Wolverine has with ninjas, which makes me feel much better. 

In the Jubilee series, she mentions that the reason for her leaving is the mansion being wrecked one too many times. We could place this after Astonishing 7-12, where the Danger Room goes crazy & kills a kid, who Jubilee could have known. Good enough reason to leave for me. We could also place Soultaker after EotS & W:AoS; Logan having been manipulated & put through hell, decides to catch up with family. 

Logan could have left for & arrived in Japan, called Jubilee to see how she's doing but left a message, & continues to meet Yukio. Jubilee gets home, & returns the call while Wolverine is fighting ninjas. The rest of Soultaker happens, he gets back to the US & eventually picks up Jubilee at the end of her series & they return to the mansion. 

What do you think?

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 10:28 am    
By Somebody

Bear in mind that Jubilee falls between MTU 1 and XM165

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 04:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Actually, no -- the Jubilee series occurs *after* X #165, as well as after ASTONX3 #6, UX #459, NX #13 and W3 #31. And yes, also after M/TU3 #2. 

I'm about to post an issue analysis of (most of) the Jubilee series, but this is an interesting placement suggestion for Wolverine. On one hand, my thought is "but Wolverine fights ninjas *all the time*", and on the other hand I'm thinking "hmm". 

The number Jubilee is handed in JUB #3 to call Wolvie back at is a 555 number, American standard -- do you think Wolvie's local cellphone would get reception in Japan? 

-Jeph! 
(I guess the whole "Wolverine is banned from Japan" thing didn't last too long, huh?)

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 07:37 pm    
By Somebody

Oh yeah, forgot about the slicing and dicing of AXM1. I still think that the smarter approach would be for the X-Men scenes at the end of that issue to be disassociated from the speech scenes, since inserting a whopping great gap between the "dying to see the costumes" line and the "donning of the costumes" scene means you need to move the prologue to keep it in sync with the speech anyway, so you might as well keep the "We have to astonish them" as intended.

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 07:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
inserting a whopping great gap between the "dying to see the costumes" line and the "donning of the costumes" scene means you need to move the prologue to keep it in sync with the speech anyway 
<<<

Except -- nothing says that that the "donning" scene on pp.19-24 is the X-Men putting on their new outfits *for the first time*. So we *don't* need to move the "dying to see the costumes" line forward to sync it with that scene -- we just need to keep every appearance of the new outfits *after* the "dying to see the costumes" line. Which we've done. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 09:13 pm    
By Somebody

Literally speaking, you're right. The general demeanour and the "We have to astonish them" line certainly *suggests* that it's the first time they're all doing this, but that's implication rather than statement (although the likelihood that anyone would ever make such a statement isn't exactly high). Doesn't mean I have to like it.

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 11:02 pm    
By jannepie

jephyork wrote: 
The number Jubilee is handed in JUB #3 to call Wolvie back at is a 555 number, American standard -- do you think Wolvie's local cellphone would get reception in Japan? 

I don't know how American operators work but at least anyone can phone my Finnish operator no matter what country I'm in. They don't need to change the number. My operator puts the call through some local operator in the country where I'm in. 

So, in my opinion, Jubilee could easily call Wolverine's cell even if he was in Japan.

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 03:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If you take your mobile phone abroad then it'll try to connect to the local networks. Whether they'll accept the call or not depends on whether they have a reciprocal arrangement with your service provider. One of them usually will, in the industrialised world.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 07:13 am    
By Selaboc

What's all this talk about wolverines mobile phone? (It's been a while since I've read the Jubille issue(s) in question, did Wolverine have a cell phone there?) I seem to recall a line the the soultaker series about wolverine not having a mobile phone.

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 07:46 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

In JUBILEE #3 (or thereabouts), he takes a cellphone call from Jubilee in the middle of a fight. It's a one-panel visual gag. But Jubilee clearly knows his number, so it's obviously his phone, and not just one he's picked up in Japan for the purpose.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 05:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Actually, she's handed his number by Brad. It could be a new number for Wolvie. 

*Is* there a line in "Soultaker" about Wolvie not having a cellphone? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 10:14 pm    
By Col_Fury

Kinda, and in a joking manner. Logan calls Yukio... 

Y-"Are you on a pay phone? When are you ever gonna get a cell?" 
L-"Hate those things. Nothing but trouble." 
Y-"Geezer. You find the shrine?" 

So it's implied by Yukio that Wolverine doesn't have a cell, but it's never said that he doesn't have one, or never did. The Jubilee series alone shows that he's used them, and he says here that he doesn't like them. Maybe he doesn't like them because he gets calls during fights? Perhaps he had one the previous day, & a phone call interrupted him while fighting ninjas, & this was a reference to that?

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Posted: 01 Jul 2005 11:37 pm    
By Col_Fury

After reading the review for Jubilee, I see that there's 'at least a week' between issues #3 & #4. Jubilee calls Wolverine in #3, & he shows up at the end of #5. I've just posted a review of the Soultaker LS which shows that it lasts a week, so it would fit in this gap rather nicely. 

However, there's topical references in both books. I think we've decided to ignore the holiday decorations in Jubilee, so it shouldn't be a problem. 

Side note: The new Kitty Pryde series is written by Akira Yoshida, the same guy who wrote Soultaker. In the first issue, Kitty writes an e-mail to Wolverine saying: "(I)understand you wanting to sit this one out having just gotten back(from Japan)." So the Kitty series takes place after Soultaker, but how long is *just gotten back*? Who knows, but this Yoshida guy likes referring to his own stories, that much is obvious.

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Thread 3

Posted: 10 Jun 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Pulse #9 references
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This week's Pulse #9 establishes that the current scenes of Secret War occur after W3 31. In Pulse #9, Logan is ranting about SHIELD, Fury, and Hydra and the physical and mental "raping" he's experienced. He notes that with all the crap he's been through, a SHIELD agent expected him to get ticked enough to kill Fury. This certainly sounds like it's after Enemy of the State and Wolverine, Agent of SHIELD. 

In Pulse #9, we see a Daily Bugle with two headlines: 
"Spider-Man Menace: Wallcrawler mayhem ties up Jersey traffic" 
"Murdock to Face Trial?" 
Does anyone have any idea about these references?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:02 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It certainly does sound as though SECRET WAR follows "Enemy of the State" and (by extension) "Agent of SHIELD." Given that Fury is announcing his intention to disappear altogether, it would seem that all other stories featuring Fury are going to have to be pulled back to before NEW AVENGERS #1 (the first other story to expressly acknowledge that he's gone). 

That would mean that MARVEL TEAM-UP does indeed precede NEW AVENGERS, as does FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES and the current FANTASTIC FOUR storyline. Oh, and CAPTAIN AMERICA. 

Oddly enough, though, the closing issues of CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON seem to be unavoidably post-HOUSE OF M, since the Falcon is still contactable in HOUSE OF M #1.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Paul O. wrote: 
>>>
That would mean that MARVEL TEAM-UP does indeed precede NEW AVENGERS, as does FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES  
<<<

But in FOES #2 we have the dialog...the Raft just suffered a massive jailbreak.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 08:43 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Oddly enough, though, the closing issues of CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON seem to be unavoidably post-HOUSE OF M, since the Falcon is still contactable in HOUSE OF M #1. 
<<<

I read the final issue of CA&F and thought "Hmm. Looks like Falcon doesn't stay missing too long as he turns up in House of M #1". 

I think that this is going to be one of those cases where they never touch upon the plot happening in a title again, (thus, Falcon turning up HoM #1 is fine, because Marvel will never bring up CA&F ever again). 

Mind you, I liked CA&F. It just seems to me Marvel's content to ignore it.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 12:17 am    
By jephyork
Director

I thought that the Falcon going missing was a set-up for Priest's upcoming solo "Falcon" series -- which, as far as I know, is still green-lit. 

As for moving all of Fury's appearances before SECWAR #5 -- I'd like to do it too. Unfortunately, FOES mentions the Raft breakout, and I think we'll end up just having to treat that as the big error that it is -- and leave it after A4 #6, and just pretend Fury's working in a subordinate capacity there. But if we can keep the OTHER 99% of Fury's appearances prior to SECWAR #5, well, that's good enough for me. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 04:37 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Hmm, FOES is a problem, isn't it? Three possible ways of dealing with it, depending on how things work out:- 

1. Fury is in a subordinate capacity (which isn't really the suggestion in PULSE, but we'll have to see how things sort out in Bendis' stories - it's clearly one of his plots, so presumably NEW AVENGERS will get to it in the end). 

2. It's way in the future after Fury returns. (This may or may not be viable depending on what happens with the other characters appearing in that series. Note for example that Diablo is around, so either he's made it back to Earth somehow following his recent appearance in FF - which itself precedes a Nick Fury appearance - or it's before that FF story.) 

3. It's before Fury leaves, and the reference to the Raft is an error. Given that it's a throwaway line, and that Marvel heroes can ALWAYS rattle off a string of recent jailbreaks - they build prisons with revolving doors and paper walls in that universe - I'd be inclined to just ignore it as an error unless it can be made to fit without too much straining.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 08:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

Wasn't there a Raft jailbreak in Alias #27? IIRC, Carnage started it and the Purple Man (once again) escaped. Let's pretend FOES #1 was referring to that. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 09:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Good catch, Jeph. Yes, they were calling it the Raft back in ALIAS #27, so FOES could be referring to that. 

For that matter, so could the Answer in TOXIN #3 - although since the series is billed as a NEW AVENGERS tie-in, that's unlikely to be the intention.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 01:24 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I thought that the Falcon going missing was a set-up for Priest's upcoming solo "Falcon" series -- which, as far as I know, is still green-lit. 
<<<


I actually hadn't heard about that...and here I thought I was doing a pretty good job of keeping track of upcoming Marvel series and miniseries! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 02:39 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hooray! The FF:FOES problem is solved! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 06:06 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Solved? Well, maybe not quite. The quotation in FOES #2 says the Raft just suffered a massive jailbreak. "Just" implies "very recently," and pushing FOES all the way back to just after ALIAS 27 may be problematic. We'll see what happens with Fury in...September...(  ), but I'm still inclined to think the fate he notes for himself in PULSE 9 may turn out to be overstated.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 08:02 pm    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Oddly enough, though, the closing issues of CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON seem to be unavoidably post-HOUSE OF M, since the Falcon is still contactable in HOUSE OF M #1. 
<<<

I read the final issue of CA&F and thought "Hmm. Looks like Falcon doesn't stay missing too long as he turns up in House of M #1". 

I think that this is going to be one of those cases where they never touch upon the plot happening in a title again, (thus, Falcon turning up HoM #1 is fine, because Marvel will never bring up CA&F ever again). 

Mind you, I liked CA&F. It just seems to me Marvel's content to ignore it. 
<<<

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I thought that the Falcon going missing was a set-up for Priest's upcoming solo "Falcon" series -- which, as far as I know, is still green-lit. 
<<<

At last report (and this WAS a while back), Priest had been offered the Falcon series, and hadn't decided whether to accept or not. He hasn't posted on his blog in yoinks tho. 

If he takes it on, and continues from the ending to CAF14, there's a problem, since you can't really push CAF13 more than a week - a fortnight if you want to really push it - back from CAF12, which in turn is the end of an arc starting in CAF8.... which leads in from the Disassembled tie-in CAF7 (CAF8 itself has a horribly garbled reference to Disassembled since it came out a week before A503 and they didn't want to spoil the ending, but it doesn't fit anywhere. They should have pushed CAF8 back a couple of weeks, to a month after CAF7 and did the job properly. CAF9 has a "proper" reference). And I highly doubt that Falcon #1 will be push-backable to pre-HoM1. Best hope is that someone else takes it on and DOES completely ignore the end of CAF14. 

*wonders idly if anyone slipped Dan Slott the note about She-Hulk being repowered in HoM1 before he wrote SH v2 #1*

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 02:55 am    
By Tragiko

In CAPTAIN AMERICA #29 (Vol.4), there is a reference to the escape from the RAFT of Mr.Hyde (pre-Disassembled)... it can be the reference contained in FF:FOES?
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 03:09 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The timeline on Cap/Falcon is a bit of a mess, but it'll just have to have a gap spliced into it. Unless the storyline does get dropped entirely, of course - and if Priest doesn't end up doing his FALCON book, it probably will be. Frankly, I suspect somebody at Marvel must have twigged by now that a Priest FALCON book isn't going to sell any better than his CAP/FALCON did - and it's not as if CAP/FALCON was even getting good reviews.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 06:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Tragiko said: 
>>>
In CAPTAIN AMERICA #29 (Vol.4), there is a reference to the escape from the RAFT of Mr.Hyde (pre-Disassembled)... it can be the reference contained in FF:FOES? 
<<<

It was pretty clear from Cap's dialog in CA4 29 that it was only Mr. Hyde that escaped from the Raft ("when the Raft puts out an APB that someone's escaped..."). That would hardly constitute a "massive jailbreak" as referenced in FOES #2. Plus, if there were a massive jailbreak just prior to CA4 29, then you'd think there'd be a reference to that previous breakout in A4 1-3.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Jun 2005 07:42 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Plus, if there were a massive jailbreak just prior to CA4 29, then you'd think there'd be a reference to that previous breakout in A4 1-3. 
<<<

Eh. Don't use lack of evidence as evidence. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 01:30 am    
By Col_Fury

Honestly, I never really saw a problem with the timelines in the CA&F & Cap books. Now, it may be because I was dreadfully behind in my reading at the time & I read them all at once,(meaning the entire CA&F run & Cap 27-32) but it may have made it clearer for me. I had already read Avengers 500-503, so it helped me place the issues a little better. 

The way I see it: 

Cap 27-28 
CA&F 1-7 
Avengers 500-503 
CA&F 8-14 
Cap 29-32 
Cap 1-Whatever 
New Avengers 

Why? CA&F has no real breaks in story except for at the end of #7, where they're backstage at Tony Stark's speach, which leads right into Avengers #500. The MODOK story picks up after Avengers #503 & runs to its conclusion, again, there's no real breaks in story from #8 to #12. A week or two later, 13 & 14 happens. Cap 29-32 can then occur. In Cap 30, there's a mention of Avengers #500-#503 being "a few weeks ago", ie: Cap says "The Avengers will bounce back...I haven't been able to do much that didn't involve throwing a shield over the last few weeks." In CA&F #9, it's explained that the 'erotic adventures' Cap & Wanda were having were hallucinations, so character appearances for her in this series are irrelevant except for her working undercover for Cap in the first 4 or so issues, which are already established as being before Avengers #500. 

The 'main' Cap book had no real references to other stories in the arcs leading up to Disassembled, & the issues that were labeled as such(29-32) were all 'after the fact' references. 

The new Cap series looks like it takes place before New Avengers, & who knows when those timelines will line up? Brubaker has his stories planned out well in advance, & I hear that House of M won't 'happen' in New Avengers until after #12. So it may be well into next year before we see any resolution there. 

So where does Avengers:Finale fall? I arbitrarily put it between CA&F #12 & #13. It could be after, I'll have to re-read it to make sure. 

What about Cap in the Spectacular Spider-Man Disassembled books? Actually, I'm not sure. I keep my Spider-books separate from my Avengers, & it didn't occur to me until just now. I remember this being discussed in other threads, I'll have to go read them(or the books themselves) to refresh my memory. 

As far as Falcon goes, I assumed that he faked his death in CA&F, & his return was an 'untold story.'(Hey, this is Marvel! It happens all the time!) I wasn't aware of a new Falcon series by anybody being discussed, but it was probably about his return to the staus quo, or so I would hope. So through my assumptions, I didn't see this as a big problem either, and apparently neither does Marvel(as much of a headache as it is). 

A lot of assumptions, I know, but what do you think?

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 02:36 am    
By Col_Fury

Aha, there it is. Cap gets an "Avengers priority alert" in Cap 29, so it couldn't have been after Avengers #503. Well, after re-reading Spectacular #15-20, and reading the Brevoort's Continuity thread, how about this? 

Cap 27-28, 29 
Spectacular 15-20 
CA&F 1-7 
Avengers 500-503 
CA&F 8-14 
Cap 30-32 
Avengers:Finale 
Cap 1-Whatever 
New Avengers 

Cap's priority alert *could* have been for the Spectacular arc, negating Cap being in two different places when he finds out about "Chaos." The first 2 issues of Spectacular were meant to be a prelude, but *why* couldn't that extend to the whole arc? I realize this is an old subject, and I realize Brevoort's intent, but to me, this makes more sense when taking all of the books into account. Regardless of the Vision, there's no mention in Spectacular of the "Chaos" story, various members of the Avengers dying or being killed, or any of the ramifications inherent therein(ahem. "Don't use lack of evidence as evidence"). Personally, I'd have to agree with those that voted to have Spectacular #15-20 placed before "Chaos" for my reasoning above(If a conclusion was reached in another subject that I missed, I apologize). 

Now modified, what do you think?

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 03:42 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

As matters stand, we've got Falcon disappearing at the end of C&F 14, in what's obviously intended as a set-up for the planned FALCON series. So unless that story's picked up on in such a way as to allow it to take place before HOUSE OF M, it's just going to have to go after HOUSE OF M, no matter how awkward that might be. I'm working on the assumption that C&F just has a huge, ungainly gap in the middle of it, for present purposes.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 4

Posted: 02 Jul 2005 05:09 pm    Post subject: JLA/Avengers
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm analysing JLA/Avengers, and it would save me some time if some knowledgeable soul out there could name the members of the Guard that appear in issue 1, specifically page 20, panel 4. 


watching: city confidential

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 06:27 pm    
By JLH

The super-deluxe absolute style hardcover (which credits this site here among its thanks), helps tremendously in IDing people (if ya can afford it): Electron, Oracle/Lady Sibyl, Tempest/Grannz (not his later Flashfire persona), Mentor II, Hobgoblin, Starbolt, Smasher IV, Impulse, Titan, Fang II, Scintilla (called Midget in the appendix), Nightside, Astra, Magic, Neutron (called "Quasar" in the appendix), Manta, Warstar (B'nee and C'cil), Hussar, and Earthquake. Yes, some of these are retired, dead, or have new names, but that's what they went by here.

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 06:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote: 
>>>
The super-deluxe absolute style hardcover (which credits this site here among its thanks) 
<<<

Are you kidding? I must have this. 

Thanks. 

watching: city confidential

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 06:40 pm    
By JLH

You didn't know? At the end of the whole appendix to appearances section, a couple people (including Peter Sanderson and Mark Waid) are thanked, as is the MCP, and the DC Who's Who's page, for "often-unwitting assistance". It seems George & Kurt do indeed visit the site, if there was any doubt, it's in print, in hardcover!

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 06:47 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Oh, I know Kurt flies through here from time to time; he's promoted the site quite a bit. But I had no clue we were recognized in any special editions. I got the books as they originally came out. Now I'll have to track down a copy in San Diego. 


watching: city confidential

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 07:00 pm    
By JLH

IMO, it's worth the price. George's artwork in an oversized format, the original 84 JLA/A artwork with basic story descriptions, early drafts of issue 3's original middle story (of the Marvel heroes as if they came about in the DCU, and vice versa). And, of course, dual introductions by Stan Lee and Julie Schwartz. 

AND, it makes a great weapon to swat at any pesky burglars! Just think, Uncle Ben would still be alive if the Parker household had a copy of the "JLA Avengers Collected Edition"!

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Posted: 03 Jul 2005 02:48 am    
By PeteD

You can get this edition for $52.49 at Talesofwonder.com, discounted from $75, I don't know whether it's any cheaper anywhere else. 

Beautiful edition, btw, worth getting. 

Peter.

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Posted: 03 Jul 2005 08:03 am    
By Sijo

...I'll wait for the paperback edition, thank you.  

BTW, nice of them to give the MCP credit. In fact, the whole JLA-Avengers crossover was the LAST bigtime crossover I've enjoyed, on EITHER company. It was just pure comic-geeky fun (without being stupid, mind you.) Everything since then has been Identity Crisis-this or Disassemble-that. Meh.  

And how amazing is it that they allowed that intercompany crossover to ACTUALLY be part of the continuity?? (On DC anyway)  

Hey, maybe the Krona-Egg is behind the coming Infinite Crisis!! 

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Thread 5

Posted: 30 Jun 2005 03:31 pm    Post subject: Nightcrawler/Wolverine Question
By samurai andy

Hi Everyone! 
I'm new and I'm glad I found this place. 
There is a nagging question that has been bugging me for quite some time. In Uncanny X men 225-227 (Fall of the Mutants), the X men supposedly die. At the end of 227, Nightcrawler comes out of his coma. He realized the x men are dead and later goes on to form Excalibur. 
My question is when did Nightcrawler find out the x-men were still alive. I remember an issue that Nightcrawler met up with Wolverine and they got into a fight. (More like Nightcrawler fought against Wolverine), because he felt that as a friend The x-men should have let them know they were ok.. 
Does anyone know this issue? Is it an UXM issue or Excalibur? Or is it an MCP issue? Any help would be great.

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Posted: 01 Jul 2005 03:30 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

samurai andy wrote: 
My question is when did Nightcrawler find out the x-men were still alive. 


The same time the rest of the world did, when they turned up on television during X-Tinction Agenda.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Jul 2005 02:20 am    
By samurai andy

I guess my less vague question would be what issue is the one nightcrawler and wolverine fight after being reunited?

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Posted: 03 Jul 2005 09:50 am    
By jephyork
Director

Marvel Comics Presents #101-108, maybe? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Jul 2005 11:06 am    
By samurai andy

thats what i thought as well, but the MCP 101-108 is about them fighting other stuff, they just sort of meet up and start in. It's not the one I remember. 
At the time I was kinda distancing myself from comics. I was in a band and dating and all that stuff. Fresh out of high school. It was one of my last times in a comic shop when I saw the issue. but I didn't get it. Flash foward years later. i had an epiphany. as well as a comics renaissance. and I am kicking myself for not getting that issue, as well as leaving comics in the first place.

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Posted: 03 Jul 2005 01:43 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Excalibur #41 showed the reunion between the Excalibur team and the X-Men, although the X-Men appearing there were actually Warwolves disguised as Colossus, Wolverine, Storm, Rogue, Psylocke, and Jean Grey. The end of the issue teased an off-panel reunion between the X-teams of the time (New Mutants, Excalibur, X-Men Blue and Gold teams, and the new X-Factor). The lineups of the X-Men and X-Factor teams pictured on screens in that teaser match up with their rosters after XF 70 (and possibly after X 1-3 and UX 281-283). Quicksilver isn't seen with the prospective X-Factor team, so it's also before XF 71. The New Mutants are called such; their pictured roster is the one established in NM 100, and a footnote states that this scene occurs before XFOR 1. 

-Sean

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Thread 6

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:43 pm    Post subject: UX #460 sheds light on X-chronology!
By jephyork
Director

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day again when a Marvel comic would get really specific with ordering events in other books. But UX #460 has made me a happy man. Not only did it specifically reference the events in Wolverine, it roped in Astonishing and nailed down the "Phoenix: Endsong" series as well. Neat! 

I haven't been keeping a solid on-paper X-map for the post-ReLoad world, simply because I don't collect the individual issues anymore -- I wait for the trades. (I know, bad Jeph, but I like 'em.) But I try to keep things straight in my head, and having skimmed this issue in the store, a lot of dominoes are clicking into place in my brain. 

Storm's team arrives home from the Savage Land, to be told that in their absence, Wolverine has gone rogue. Since the team was trying to find and save Wolverine in Canada when they were transported to the Savage Land in #455, that's a little weird -- but it works. They've been in the Savage Land for an awfully long time, and I guess we just have to assume that Wolverine found his own way home from Canada and was promptly abducted by the Gorgon. 

There's a quick continuity glitch in the "Wolvie's gone rogue" scene -- they reference his attempt on the President's life in the past tense, which would imply that W3 #25 has already occured -- but Storm's team was there for W3 #25, and in fact Storm was sighted as early as W3 #21. So we'll have to disregard that reference -- maybe it was referring to an earlier, unpublished attack on the President. 

(Since we've placed TB2 #1-6 in the "month"-long gap in W3 #20, they should go between pages of UX #460 too.) 

In any case -- upon their return home, Storm's team is also surprised to find Colossus alive. Which means that the first "Astonishing" arc also occured while they were gone. (And also before Wolvie's brainwashing, since he appears in the arc.) 

So, even though ASTONX3 #1 is indisputably entangled with UX #444, and there aren't any gaps to speak of in #1-6, we're being told that the arc wrapped up during UX #455-459. 

And now I'll bet everyone's really glad that I punched that hole in ASTONX3 #1. Looks like we'll have to widen it to fit all of UX #444-454. 

After Storm's team returns home, there's a gap in the issue where we're told that Northstar's death (W3 #25 ~ NX #13) occurs, as does the "Phoenix: Endsong" series. Since Wolverine appeared fine and dandy in "Endsong", I guess that means that his recovery and vengeance-rampage in W3 #26-31 also occured in that gap. 

Also X #165 occurs between UX #454-455, so we can tie together the X and UX seri s up to this point too. 

So we've got: 

UX #452-454 
X #165 
UX #455 
(UX #456-459 occur during the following, through W3 #21 p.17:) 
ASTONX3 #1 pp.19-24 
ASTONX3 #2-6 
W3 #20 pp.1-12 
TB2 #1-6 
W3 #20 pp.13-24 
W3 #21 pp.1-17 (Wolvie's brainwashing is made public knowledge.) 
UX #460 pp.1-x (Storm's team returns home ... I didn't catch the page number of the split.) 
W3 #21 pp.18-23 
W3 #22-25 
NX #13 
W3 #26-31 
X:P-E #1-5 
UX #460 pp.X-22? 

One other notable thing that this affects is MTU3 #1-6 ... which needs to occur after ASTONX3 #1-2 (Wolvie quotes Cyclops' line "we have to astonish them" in MTU3 #1). 

There are other dominoes falling in my head right now, but I can't put my finger completely on them at the moment ... how do Angel's appearances in "Endsong" affect his appearances in "Excalibur", if at all, etc etc... 

Can anyone see any other continuity implications -- or, god help us, continuity *problems* -- provided by UX #460 and its revelations? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph, I'll do my usual weekly reading and analysis then tackle this...probably this weekend. It doesn't bode well that there's that error regarding the attack on POTUS. I have a feeling that whoever is trying to tidy up chronology in UX 460 just hasn't done the homework we've been doing here at MCP. I hope I'm wrong...
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Paul B.

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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You do pretty well, for someone who's just skimming through books at the store. 


watching: eagles farewell tour

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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

High praise, thanks. You should see me when I've got the books in front of me. 

Paul, the POTUS quote isn't as troublesome as we thought. All it says is, "A global alert has been issued for [Wolverine] -- to be shot on sight. His latest target was the President of the United States." 

That actually fits very well in-between pp.17-18 of W3 #21 ... in the scene ending on p.17, SHIELD decides to alert the super-hero community about Wolverine's brainwashing (hence the "global alert"), and the President arrives on the Helicarrier aboard Air Force One, for protection. The issue doesn't say it explicitly, but we can infer that the President was indeed a possible target at that point -- which would make Sage's statement speculative but technically correct. And on p.18 of W3 #21, we cut to the Xavier Institute, where Storm is among the X-Men shown -- so her team has got to be home by then. 

So I'd say the first half of UX #460 fits perfectly between those two pages. 

Hey, I just remembered -- we see bits of the Peter Milligan team of X-Men in UX #459 and W3 #25 ... are there any clues there that would allow us to place "Golgotha" or any "Rogue" or "Gambit" issues? Rogue's powers should provide us some clues ... and if I recall, Havok slightly altered his costume in X #166. Did he lose the cowl? Does he have the cowl in UX #459? He's got it in W3 #25, which comes after UX #459... 

Now I'm just free-associating. Time for bed. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:03 pm    
by Hotcharokey

Also, X-Men #170 makes reference to outer space and the Fantastic Four, indicating that this story arc occurred after the X-Men/Fantastic Four limited series

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Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:11 am    
By david

Nice timeline, Jeph! The only question I have is: 
Where does Jubilee 1 to 6 & Astonishing 7 to 12 go in that list?

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Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:57 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, JUBILEE #1-6 all take place after MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #2, since Jubilee leaves the X-Mansion in that story to appear in her solo title. The opening arc of MARVEL TEAM-UP in turn takes place after the Avengers are formed (since Spider-Man refers to himself as one of Cap's fellow avengers), but before ROGUE #7-12 (since Sunfire is ambulatory). So it really depends on where NEW AVENGERS #1-6 end up being nailed down into Wolverine continuity - which in turn depends on whether the story of that series allows for the possibility of "Enemy of the State" taking place between NEW AVENGERS #6-7, or whether the "New Avengers" reference in WOLVERINE will simply have to be ignored as an error. 

As for the wider X-Men issues, now that I've actually had a chance to read the issue, it looks like we can also take advantage of the explicit multi-week gap in this story and shove all Claremont's UX stories prior to the gap as far back as possible. And yes, it's going to be unavoidable to work a big gap into ASTONISHING X-MEN #1, however counterintuitive that may be, because there's now got to be space for a year's worth of UNCANNY between pages...
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:08 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yep -- Havok's got the cowl in UX #459 and W3 #25, and lost it in X #166. So "Golgotha" occurs after W3 #25 -- and since Wolverine's just fine in "Golgotha", it likely occurs after all of W3 #26-31 as well. 

This is fun! 

And, Paul, not to start up the same old discussion in a brand new thread, but I think the jury's still out on MTU3's placement vs. A4 #1-6. Remember, Fury is in charge of SHIELD in MTU3 #1-6, and not in charge in A4. And Spidey's line about "fellow Avengers" is fairly easily written off, as he's been a reserve Avenger for years. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:51 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm pretty sure that, while Fury is certainly active in MTU3 1-6, he's never actually described as the director of SHIELD. It remains to be seen what's actually happened to him - but the only other story to acknowledge his loss of control of SHIELD, in PUNISHER, suggested that he hadn't simply been told to go home and do the gardening. He was still wandering around doing his job, he just wasn't in charge any more. The implication was demotion, rather than suspension. Which would be entirely consistent with everything we see in MTU.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:04 am    
By jephyork
Director

How is he portrayed in "FF:Foes"? That's one book that *has* to come after A4 #1. 

And all I'm saying, is -- the jury's still out. But remember, when I contacted Robert Kirkman he said that, while he initially wrote it to occur after NA #1-6, the editors rewrote it to occur before -- so we know that the editorial intent is that it occurs before NA #1. And we loooove editorial intent. 

Did Luke Cage's appearance in MTU3 #9 give any hints? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:07 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

None whatsoever.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:18 am    
By Jason Doty

I know I'm weak on picking up clues, but isn't Cage picking up junk food for Jessica, and lives pretty close. In Amazing Spider-Man dos'nt all the Avengers live in the Avengers Tower since Jarvis cooks breakfast for everyone?, and would'nt this occur before Secret War #1, since his place was destroyed? 

I'm thinking all of the Marvel Team-Up's occur before Secret War and before Rogue, due to Sunfire's apputation, and the clues that were getting from the New Avengers characters. I think we know the writers original intent, but can now safely asume the series happens prior to Secret War. 

Would this work for all chacters involved? 

In fact how does this work, just after X-23 joins the X-Men and between Secret War?

Last edited by Jason Doty on Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:27 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just starting to scratch the surface on this one, and probably won't have a lot worked out until late tomorrow or so, but I have two immediate questions: 

1) How long can we reasonably assume Storm's team to have been in the Savage Land? 

2) Can Beast appear in his Reload costume in A:FINALE before the costume's presumed debut at the end of ASTONX3 1? 

Paul
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:31 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The scene at the end of ASTONISHING X-MEN #1 logically can't be the first debut of all those costumes, since there have been other stories which showed some of those characters in their new costumes and some in the original versions. 

Strictly speaking we're given no guidance as to how long Storm's team have been in the Savage Land, but Rachel is still recovering from the effects of being transformed into a dinosaur. Since the recovery takes place by the same mechanism as the original transformation, and the original transformation didn't take very long, that would suggest that they've only been a few days. (And what motivation do they have to stay longer?) But the scope is certainly there to insert a longer gap if that's needed.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:11 am    
By jephyork
Director

Paul B., we worked out a long time ago that the end of ASTONX3 #1 is *not* the first time the X-Men have worn their ReLoad costumes. Feel free to put any number of ReLoad-costume appearances before this. 

As for Luke Cage's apartment, Jason, is he definitely talking about HIS place? Maybe they're living in Jessica's apartment. I don't think there's any clues either way that would help with placing "Secret War" -- although I think we all suspect that SECWAR #5 will end with Fury being relieved of his post as head of SHIELD. 

And, hey, thanks for mentioning X-23 -- that nudged some more dominoes in my mind: MTU3 #1-6 must occur after W3 #20-31. 

MTU3 #1-6 occur over a day or two. MTU3 #1 occurs after ASTONX3 #1 (19-24), since Wolvie quotes one of Cyclops' lines from that issue. ASTONX3 #1 (19-24) occurs while Storm's team is in the Savage Land -- and since Storm and X-23 appear in #5, they must be back. So MTU3 #1-6 occur after the first half of UX #460, where they return. 

However, at the break point of UX #460, Wolverine is brainwashed -- so since Wolverine is fine in MTU3 #1-2, the whole opening MTU3 arc must occur after he gets back to normal, presumably in W3 #31. 

Chronology is fun.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:37 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Chronology is fun. 
<<<

Yes, except we've had to wait a year for all of the pieces to fall into place.  


Quote: 
>>>
I know I'm weak on picking up clues, but isn't Cage picking up junk food for Jessica, and lives pretty close. In Amazing Spider-Man dos'nt all the Avengers live in the Avengers Tower since Jarvis cooks breakfast for everyone?, and would'nt this occur before Secret War #1, since his place was destroyed?  
<<<

Luke Cage has yet to explicitly move into Avengers Tower. Luke and Jessica Jones moved in with each other sometime after the end of Alias, (they're living together in Pulse #1). That apartment was destroyed in Pulse #6/Secret War #1, which has to occur before New Avengers #1, because Fury looses command of SHIELD (supposedly) at Secret War's end, and Fury is still not in command of SHIELD in New Avengers #1-6. 

In New Avengers #3, (after Luke has recovered) he's living with Jessica, presumably in a new apartment, (look how shabby the place is in New Avengers #3). 

In DD2 #59, Matt stops by Jessica/Luke's place to recruit Luke to help fight the Yakuza. I'm guessing this is DD2 #56-60 is the storyarc that got Matt back in costume after supposedly being out of the costume for around a year. Matt is IN costume in New Avengers #3 when Cap. America, (OUT of costume) asks him to join the New Avengers team. 

Though in DD2 #61-64, Fury is in command of SHIELD. In the Black Widow miniseries, Fury seems to be in command of SHIELD. 

So the correct order for Luke Cage/Daredevil/New Avengers events would probably be: 

DD2 #56-60 
DD2 #61-64 
Black Widow Vol. 4, #1-6 
Secret War #1-5/Pulse #6-10 
New Avengers #1-6
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:48 pm    
By Jason Doty

Is anyone considering Sunfire's placement, in Rogue. I was suggesting having MTU pushed as far back as possible, prior to the Uncanny Savageland story, just after X-23 arrived. It would be before Wolverine went rogue, before Sunfire is handicapped, set up Jubilee nicely and still have Fury fermly in charge of SHIELD. My consern is does it work for the other Marvel characters.

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Sorry, Jason, but that doesn't work -- for the reasons I outlined before. It has to occur after the first half of UX #460 and W3 #31. 

Instead of pushing MTU3 #1-9 back, why not push ROGUE3 #7-12 forward? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:00 pm    
By Somebody

Rogue's second arc is locked in place relative to X-Men, between #170 and #171, and "Bizarre Love Triangle" is pre-HoM, giving not a huge amount of room for manoeuvre.

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
"Bizarre Love Triangle" is pre-HoM 
<<<

Where does it say that? 


Quote: 
>>>
giving not a huge amount of room for manoeuvre. 
<<<

Why? We don't know how "soon" HoM will occur relative to the rest of the books, and we don't know how "long" X #171-174 will take. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:20 pm    
By the Krayon

Quote: 
>>>
Where does it say that?  
<<<

Presumedly HoM will change a good deal, at least enough to be noticed in X-Men, in fact, didn't just this week at WizardWorld wasn't there an announcement of major x-changes post HoM? The stories post-HoM will be recognizable by these changes. The status quo remains at the biginning of Bizzarre Love Triangle. 

-the_Krayon

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You speak like you've read the issue. Nonetheless, I'm inclined to PRESUME that X #171-174 fit before HoM as well. 

However, X-Men #175-176 are a crossover with Black Panther v4 #8-9, and Black Panther v4 #7 is a HoM crossover ... so it looks like X #175 comes AFTER HoM. However, promo art for X #175 looks like we've got the same old team and costumes ... so, so much for the "radically altered lineup" theory. 

In any case -- we still don't have any idea how "soon" HoM occurs in the X-Men's timeline. We know it's after ASTONX3 #12, UX #461, X #175, W3 #33 and NX #15, but we don't know *how soon after*. And we don't know how long ROGUE3 #7-12 and X #171-174 take to occur. For all we know, there's plenty of "time" to slot them in post-W3 #31 and post-MTU3 #1-10. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph said: 
>>>
Paul B., we worked out a long time ago that the end of ASTONX3 #1 is *not* the first time the X-Men have worn their ReLoad costumes. Feel free to put any number of ReLoad-costume appearances before this.  
<<<

Yeah, but until now I think we still had Hank and Kitty debuting in those costumes in ASTONX3 1. That's all thrown out the window, and that's fine. Hank is going to have to appear in the Reload "diaper" at least in A:FINALE and in issues of C&DP before the end of ASTONX3 1. (More later.) 


Paul O. said: 
>>>
Strictly speaking we're given no guidance as to how long Storm's team have been in the Savage Land, but Rachel is still recovering from the effects of being transformed into a dinosaur. Since the recovery takes place by the same mechanism as the original transformation, and the original transformation didn't take very long, that would suggest that they've only been a few days. (And what motivation do they have to stay longer?) But the scope is certainly there to insert a longer gap if that's needed. 
<<<

It looks like that Savage Land visit is going to have to be longer than a few days. As Bishop says in UX 460, "We've been away a lot longer than anticipated...and out of communication." I suppose the other X-teams had no way of knowing where the Hauk'ka chase led them, even after Logan found his way back to Westchester from Canada BTS following UX 456-FB. And that would excuse a long stay in the Savage Land without the cavalry coming in. 

But let's say Logan immediately got involved in the end of ASTONX3 1 upon his return to Westchester. As we go from page 19 of ASTONX3 1 through the end of ASTONX3 6, a couple of days have passed. We should probably tack ASTONX3 7-12 on right after this, because of all the references to Colossus being newly returned and the X-Men's speculation about his state of mind. Fortunately, no one on Storm's Savage Land team appears in ASTONX3 7-12 (so far) and the story arc (so far) occurs on just one day. 

Then after ASTONX3 12, Logan would have to appear in W3 20 (pages 3-12) in which he's jetted off to Japan. Logan is defeated by Gorgon and is taken away. Pages 13-14 occur "one week" later. No one's heard from Logan and Kitty is doing a follow-up investigation in Japan. As I recall, we have a "month"-long gap after page 14 of W3 20 in which we've placed Logan's appearances in TB2. I suppose the bad news about Logan going rogue in UX 460 can date from this gap. But still we're dealing with a couple of weeks' stay in the Savage Land for Storm's crew.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:17 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
In any case -- we still don't have any idea how "soon" HoM occurs in the X-Men's timeline. We know it's after ASTONX3 #12, UX #461, X #175, W3 #33 and NX #15, but we don't know *how soon after*.  
<<<

Well, we know it's pretty soon after NX #15, at least, because that story continues directly from NX #14, which ended with the X-men being summoned off to the meeting with the Avengers which we see in HOUSE OF M. At least, it seems a fairly safe assumption that that's the intention. 

Although this would seem to raise some queries about NEW X-MEN: HELLIONS, which takes place only a couple of days later - depending on how long HOUSE OF M lasts for, there may not actually BE a Marvel Universe for this story to take place in! Or some space may have to be found in the middle of HOM #1, perhaps by pushing back the trip to Genosha while appropriate arrangements are made to get in. (The place is supposed to be surrounded by an international military cordon, after all.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:55 pm    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Although this would seem to raise some queries about NEW X-MEN: HELLIONS, which takes place only a couple of days later - depending on how long HOUSE OF M lasts for, there may not actually BE a Marvel Universe for this story to take place in! Or some space may have to be found in the middle of HOM #1, perhaps by pushing back the trip to Genosha while appropriate arrangements are made to get in. (The place is supposed to be surrounded by an international military cordon, after all.) 
<<<

I have some doubts that'll work - it's apparently bookended with another Emma/Hellion scene to mirror the one at the start of #1 (this in one of the interviews when the writers were asked about Emma's participation). 

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to find the whole HoM story takes place between the Hellion/Emma scene in #1 (followed, of course by the end of NXMAX14 and all of 15, so you might need that gap anyway), and the Hellions getting caught at the airport. I sincerly doubt that most of Marvel-Earth will remember the HoM world even if the major heroes do, so we might end up with the (quite possibly altered) world picking up seconds after the reality shift in HoM1, and Hellions being the first title set in the post-HoM world.

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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:11 pm    
By garbonzo

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I know I'm weak on picking up clues, but isn't Cage picking up junk food for Jessica, and lives pretty close. In Amazing Spider-Man dos'nt all the Avengers live in the Avengers Tower since Jarvis cooks breakfast for everyone?, and would'nt this occur before Secret War #1, since his place was destroyed? 
<<<
 
I think we are going to have to push Secret War Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in time. The recent "Secret Files" from Nick Fury one-shot recveals that he had a backup team that he was contemplating using in the event everything went pear-shaped with his "secret war" team. One of those characters in teh B-Team was Hawkeye. Now, it is conceivable that Fury could have prepared this file months in advance, but why would he leave his clean up team un-updated when he leaves for Latveria? So...as I read it, Secret War has to occur very close in proximity to the Death of Hawkeye. I cannot believe that Fury would leave his backup team "as is" with a dead member for very long. 

garbonzo

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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

But, in the context of Secret War, the team's secret invasion of Latveria occured "one year" before the attack on Luke Cage. It's perfectly all right for that part to occur before Disassembled, and the main body of Secret War to occur shortly before A4 #1. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:36 am    
By garbonzo

ooops. You're right. I guess it would help if these books came out more frequently than once every 6 months. That way the story would be a bit fresher in my mind. That whole "one year earlier thing" is a bit hard to keep track of. 
garbonzo

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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:07 pm    
By Chrisday

hello, this is my first post here. 

i have been doing my chronology work at comixfan for the last year and a half of x-men titles (since just before reloaded) up until the present. 

check this thread. 

this is what it looks like at the moment (but i do update it regularly) 


I've updated again on Thursday 9th June 2005 

Sorry if anything is a spoiler, I dont intend to spoil anything, so for some of the later stuff, read at your own risk of being spoiled somewhat 

At the moment, this chronology covers events just prior to the reloaded event, up to the House of M event. If anyone can give some constructive criticism to add information to this chronology, I would greatly appreciate it. Ive come to realize that this chronology work can sometimes be quite difficult to understand. For this reason I have made a point of adding notes of why things are organized the way they are, such as where wolverine is and why he can be in only one place at a time. These things are also open to discussion some things can be moved around slightly 

Cable & Deadpool #1-6 (first/main part of issue 6) (not the epilogue, which takes place later after a few weeks) occurs at the same time as (Planet X in New X-Men#???-154 and Prisoner of Fire in X-treme X-Men#40-45), then X-treme X-Men #46, New X-Men #155-156, and Uncanny X-Men #442-443 which follows Xavier right into Excalibur #1-7. (with Cable meeting Xavier before planet X because Xavier can still walk in C&DP#3, and Cable must be incapacitated during the time that Xorneto kills Phoenix and wrecks NYC, otherwise Cable seriously could have defeated Xorneto by himself. Greymalkin/Avalon/Providence is rebuilt at the end 

Exiles #46-48 and onwards (Up until Exiles #68 just before the house of M tie-in in #69-71) (Earn your wings) shows the failed reconstruction of the classic x-men mansion which will no doubt be replaced with the brand new mansion design. Nocturne is left here in 616, and is recruited by the Brotherhood of Mutants. Meanwhile, the Exiles have many wacky adventures in alternate realities. Holocaust joins the team from wherever he was in 616 and in the Panoptichron or Crystal Palace, Holocaust is killed by evil Hyperion from the Weapon X team. Evil Hyperion is sent back to his nuclear wasteland homeworld. 

Then Avengers Disassembled: 
Thor #80-85 continues directly into Stormbreaker #1-6 
Avengers #500-503 (start of first three month break) which ends with Avengers Finale 
GLA#1 flashback sequence of the avengers disassembled crisis on television and in newspapers 
And continuing from Avengers #503 is Excalibur #8 onwards - continues up until Excalibur #11 (prologue and part 1) which occurs after UXM#454 so all of these other events have to happen at the same time as these issues of Excalibur 

The Reloaded break ends 
Uncanny X-Men #444-447, because the new mansion is in its final stages of construction (it is not yet finished!!!) (Kitty and Lockheed and Jay Guthrie are visiting for the baseball game) Cannonball is injured by the Fury. Wolverine wears his new uniform well before Astonishing #1, new costumes for Storm, Bishop, Nightcrawler, Marvel Girl and Cannonball. 

Adjectiveless X-Men #157-160, the new mansion has been finished, the x-men team rosters are finalized, and Cyclops, Emma Frost wear new costumes here before Astonishing x-men #1, even though Wolverine, Kitty and Beast are still wearing their old costumes (and wolverine is wearing a very old costume from the pre-Morrison era). Nightcrawler wears an old costume again, Archangel is complains about being sent to Genosha (he doesn't go) and Husk goes on holiday with him when he leaves. Kitty and Lockheed are still at the mansion before Astonishing X-Men #1 Jay Guthrie arrives at the school. Clearly there are problems with who is wearing what costume, but Astonishing X-men #1 cannot be the first time that Wolverine, Cyclops or Emma Frost wears their new uniforms. Also, Gambit is blinded at the end of this story arc. 

NXM Academy X #1-6 
Can occur now that Jay Guthrie is at the school, he gets another tour. And again Emma and Cyclops have their new uniforms before Astonishing #1. 

Uncanny X-Men #448-451 introduces x-23 to the team. Cannonball is no longer on the team due to his injury. Rachel and Kitty are in contact over the phone when Rachel is in London, and this stuff ends with Sage leaving the X-Men to go undercover in the hellfire club 

Madrox #1-5 can go here simply because I needed both Rahne and Bishop to be between jobs so to speak, as they both have roles in this this is definitely some time before Academy X #12 where Rahne talks about working with Jamie. 

Adjectiveless X-Men #161-164 would occur here, the Brotherhood of mutants would have attacked the mansion now. Nocturne and Juggernaut (among others) are MIA as they get sucked into a vortex and somehow end up in Mojoverse. The mansion gets seriously damaged for the first time since it was built, Gambit is still blind, and Sammy is killed by Black Tom Cassidy. 

Uncanny X-Men #452-454 (chasing hellfire) has to occur before X-Men #165 because Sages story has to be resolved first, Emma Frost helps here. The x-mansion has time to be repaired while this happens. Events here occur before Excalibur #11 (prologue and part 1) assuming that part 1 of Excalibur #11 does take place after the prologue because Courtney Ross and Viper are complaining about Sunspot and Sage taking over the Hellfire club. This also has Xavier confronting Magneto about Wanda, this conversation is the first time the two of them speak since Excalibur #8. (The six month break in Excalibur #11 starts now) 

NXM Academy X #7-9 
Gambit has enough visibility to teach a target practice class (elixir says in X-Men #165 that he has attempted to heal Gambit, but obviously needed Sage to help do it properly) this is definitely after X-Men #164 (the brotherhood has already attacked - Sammy's death is mentioned) but before X-Men #165 (x-mas issue) because it is definitely Autumn. 

Mystique #14-24 has to occur when Xavier is on Genosha. It would likely occur some time during the six-month break shown in Excalibur #11, when Mystique attacks Xavier, Magneto doesn't join the chase after Mystique like the others, probably too busy caring for Wanda. Rogue and Wolverine both appear in new outfits near the end. Mystique goes into hiding. Forge will be seen next in Cable & Deadpool #15 

(end of the first three month break) since Avengers #503, 
Avengers Finale should occur about here. Beast does have a role in this. The Avengers officially disband. This occurs before New Thunderbolts#1 and before Young Avengers #1. Avengers Finale is half way between Avengers #503 and New Avengers #1, and there is now the (start of the second three month break) before New Avengers #1 

Young Avengers #1-4 and the rest of this arc (sidekicks) Im putting roughly here, some time after Avengers Finale, but some time before New Avengers #1 the Young Avengers take up residence in the remains of Avengers Mansion, and Kang the Conqueror arrives. 

X-Men #165 (x-mas issue) X-23 joins the x-men, Gambits eyesight is fixed properly by Sage, and members of all teams appear here: Uncanny, Adjectiveless, Academy X and Astonishing characters are all here (Colossus is not back yet). Just for reference, Archangel and Husk apparently return from their holiday together, Magneto and Xavier visit in astral form from Genosha also (Astral form because Xavier is walking, and he and Magneto are green and see-through) this is some time during the six-month gap shown in Excalibur #11 

The Astonishing X-men team (minus kitty, and colossus is still not back), S.H.I.E.L.D, Six-Pack and Deadpool start to work together, as seen at the end of Cable & Deadpool #6  in Cable & Deadpool#7-10, Deadpool becomes a temporary X-man. By this time the Avengers must have totally disassembled, otherwise they would have opposed Cable in some form, they didnt and the X-Men team that faces Cable is a combination of all three teams: Cyclops, Emma Frost, Wolverine, Beast (who now has his new uniform), Marvel Girl, Rogue, Gambit, Bishop, Storm and Iceman all face Cable. Cable is incapacitated in the end after fighting an epic battle with the Silver Surfer, whose unbreakable silver surfboard he manages to break! Also, Xavier cooperates with the USA government against Cable  he has a wheelchair and appears in Astral form, therefore it should also be in within the six-month gap of Excalibur #11 

Cable & Deadpool # 11-12 has to happen some time very soon after the Burnt offering. Here is good enough for me. Agent X returns, having been hired to kill Cable before he can be resurrected. Fixer helps to bring Cable out of his semi-vegetable state. There is a decent break before issue 13 though 

Academy X #10-12 needs to happen after the x-mas issue, but before Enemy of the State in Wolverine (academy X #13 deals with Northstars death) Rahne leaves the school to go back to X-Factor investigations with Jamie Madrox and Strong Guy. 

Uncanny X-Men #455 while the X.S.E. team goes to Valencia to find Psylocke alive and well, Wolverine goes to Canada with X-23 on some palaeontology thing, he fights the Haukka and totally disappears, eventually returning to the mansion without his x-jet (because it was destroyed), leaving X-23 behind to meet the rest of the X.S.E. X-Men team who appear at the end of the issue. This follows the X.S.E. team in Uncanny X-men issues, while Wolverine is next seen in Astonishing X-Men #1 

Astonishing X-men #1-6, (yes, it happens here!!!) Kitty moves some of her things back into the mansionshe already has a room there with Rachel and X-23. Wolverine returns, having been elsewhere in Canada. The crisis with Ord and his cure for mutants leads to the x-men finding Colossus alive and well (no evidence whatsoever of this previously). Lockheed must just come and go from the mansion when he pleases Kitty wears her new uniform for the first time here (so yes, it can be said that there is at least ONE new costume in this arc). 

After that, Wolverine leaves and is captured by Hydra or the Hand or Dawn of the White Light(???) in Tokyo in Wolverine #20 (???) to start off Enemy of the State, apparently there is a gap of some time before he can be controlled properly. 
Meanwhile, in Uncanny X-Men #456-459, Storm, Bishop, Nightcrawler, and Marvel girl are captured in Canada by the Haukka and are taken by a portal to the Savage Land, X-23 and Psylocke follow them and come to the rescue. The world gets very cold for a short period of time. At the end, in the X-mansion, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Iceman, Havoc, Beast and Kitty are there watching the weather situation Rachel needs time to recover at the end from her transformation. 
Back to Wolverine #21-24 (or something like this???), Wolverine is under the control of the Hand (???). And this story somehow (I havent read it all yet) ties in with New Thunderbolts #1-6, because NTB #4 has a tie-in to Enemy of the State, where a mind controlled Wolverine fights a mind controlled Swordsman, and both fight Baron Strucker. Also, this occurs after Avengers Finale. And note that Purple Man is not yet in prison on the raft. Wolverine reveals to Daredevil that he is targeting President George W. Bush. These events here also ties in with the events of Uncanny X-men #460 part 1, where the X.S.E. team returns to the mansion to find that Colossus alive and that Wolverine has gone rogue. There is also the reunion between Psylocke and Beast here. The memorial to Psylocke (made by Beast) is mentioned (seen later in academy X #13). Rachel is still recovering from her transformation. Jamie Braddock is at the mansion. Part 2 of UXM #460 deals with the following events 
Wolverine #25, Rachel and Kitty are on better terms with each other. Rachel confronts Wolverine. The mansion gets trashed by wolverine in a Blackbird or X-jet. Northstar is killed by Wolverine, and Captain America and Iron Man guest-star (this is before New Avengers #1, and almost certainly after Avengers Finale) and members of all three core x-teams deal with this crisis. Academy X #13 has a detailed flashback of what happens in Wolverine #25 and deals with the aftermath, it shows that Psylocke still has her memorial statue up though and while Northstar's dead body is repaired by Elixer, Hand assassins led by Electra steal it as a tie-in to Wolverine: 'Agent of Shield', or more specifically Wolverine #26, where Wolverine becomes an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. and fights a mind controlled Electra and Northstar among other things (details would be nice if someone could contribute them) 

Wolverine was seen fighting Hydra agents in Cable & Deadpool #13-14 in a sub-plot, so this fighting probably occurs sometime during or after Enemy of the State and Agent of SHIELD in Wolverines own title. Apparently the X-force #1-6 limited series (of rather controversial quality), spins directly out of C&DP #14, and ends before Cable and Deadpool #15 and onwards, which involves Deadpool being brainwashed and searching for Cable who is MIA, and also features Syrin, Cannonball and Forge, and this story called Enema of the State will later tie-into the House of M event in issue 17. 

Phoenix: Endsong #1-5 apparently occurs inbetween Astonishing x-men #6 and #7. it has to occur inbetween parts 1 and 2 of UXM #460, while the Dangerous arc of Astonishing has to occur after UXM #461. Anyway, Phoenix: Endsong involves Wolverine (back from SHIELD), Cyclops, Emma Frost, Kitty, Colossus, Storm, Beast, Nightcrawler, and Archangel, who is still on holidays. At the end, Rachel has a cameo of sorts (I dont have any good reason why she should be away from the action darn), as do numerous other x-men, including Xavier, who must still be on Genosha. 

Uncanny X-men #460 part 2, (several weeks later) notes how wolverines problems have been resolved, and notes the events of Phoenix: Endsong. Members of the New Mutants and Hellions squads have cameos (Icarus, Rockslide, Dust and Surge). Rachel is upset about losing Jean, and is probably also upset about losing Cable, who is currently MIA. Psylocke has been seeing flashes of her brother, Jamie. Juggernaut and Nocturne (in Spirals body) escape from Mojoverse back to the x-mansion, right into the Danger Room (Astonishing X-Men #7-12 has not yet occurred) Nightcrawler and Nocturne have a reunion this leads into stuff with Mojo into Uncanny X-Men #461. 

New Thunderbolts #7,8 and onwards after 'Enemy of the State' ends (in this issue, from what I can gather, New Avengers #1 has not yet occurred, as the Raft is mentioned, without a word like 'catastrophe' attached to it...), also Purple Man is still active, not yet imprisoned on The Raft. New Thunderbolts #9 Genis confronts Monica about the name Photon. Songbird starts tracking Purple Man. Purple Man confronts Melissa and starts controlling her, but Purple man is stabbed in the back by the Swordsman. 

Astonishing X-Men #7-12 also occurs during the six month gap within Excalibur #11, because of Xaviers movements, but this all occurs after Uncanny X-men #461 because shi'ar technology is still in the Danger room then The mansion gets wrecked again here, by a remote controlled Blackbird this time - (and in the end the shi'ar tech goes from the danger room...) after this arc, Xavier will return to Genosha for the last bits of Excalibur... 

X-Men #166-170, Golgotha (could occur earlier than this, who knows?). Emma Frost and Wolverine are both in this after dealing with the alien creatures on Earth, this X-men team goes up into space to fight the 362 invading aliens. 

X-Men #171 onwards, set after Astonishing X-men #7-12 because the Danger Room is different now probably without the Shiar technology. Gambit twice says that it used to be the danger room. Does this story arc tie in with Gambit and Rogues solo titles? 

Sometime after New Thunderbolts #10 (as far as I can tell), but most likely before New Avengers #1, is the GLA #1-4 limited series, with the events under the heading: July 13th the end of everything. I also think this has to be sometime after Swordsman is at Thunderbolts Headquarters (the flashbacks obviously occur earlier, such as when the GLAers learn about Hawkeyes death) 

(end of second three month break) for New Avengers #1 onwards which takes place three months after Avengers Finale, and six months after Avengers #503, also after 'Wolverine: Agent of Shield, and at least after New Thunderbolts #7. In New Avengers #4, 5, Wolverine tracks Sauron to the Savage Land and meets the New Avengers and joins the team. 

***End of six month break*** for Excalibur # 11 (part 2), #12-14 with Warren and Paige dealing with a crisis in Zanzibar, and Callistos team on Genosha leaves to help Archangel and Husk. This occurs approximately six months after the first part of Excalibur #11. it is here because it has to be close enough to the upcoming House of M event. the Phoenix Endsong #1-5, in which Archangel plays a part... from what we know right now, would have to have taken place already in that six-month gap, and it is earlier within the events of UXM#460 anyway. Xavier asks for assistance from Dr Strange, who teleports to Genosha to help Magneto and himself deal with Wanda. In issue 14, reality goes strange  visiting some of Xaviers memories and feelings. Dormammu, is brought by Wandas reality warping powers to face Dr Strange (Dormammu once took control of Wanda  right before she married the Vision) Revelations from Mr Sinister are revealed to Xavier. Xavier finds his way to Magneto and Wanda. And leads into House of M#1 

NXM Academy X #14 (and 15?) leads directly into House of M #1 with the Astonishing X-Men team leaving to meet the New Avengers. Cameos at the x-mansion include: Nightcrawler, Beast, Wolverine, Gambit, Cyclops, Emma Frost, Magma, and Colossus. Before the Dance in Academy X#14, the Hellions squad wins the squad trophy seen in flashbacks from NXM: Hellions#1. After the Dance, but before the X-men leave, is the conversation between Emma Frost and Hellion after the prize-giving ceremony in NXM: Hellions#1, which leads up to #4 and is set in Los Angeles. The X-men leave to meet the Avengers in New York City for House of M#1, the Blob attacks the School in NXM Academy X#15. 

Before the House of M Event, we have these issues not yet covered Wolverine up to #32, Cable & Deadpool #16, New Thunderbolts #10 

House of M#1 six months after Xavier arrived in Genosha, and six months after Avengers #503. Somehow remains of high-rise buildings (???) are used in Genosha by Xavier and Magneto to care for Wanda. Old Avengers and the Astonishing X-men team arrive at Stark Towers. (Something about the bad departure between Xavier and the x-men in Astonishing X-men #???) Quicksilver sees Wanda and Magneto. The X-men and Avengers go to Genosha to see Wanda. Reality warps around Spider-Man 

House of M tie-in issues 
Wolverine #33-35 
Uncanny X-Men #462-465 
NXM Academy X #16-19 
Cable & Deadpool #17 
New Thunderbolts #11 
Exiles #69-71 
As well as the House of M #1-8 issues themselves 

The Pulse: House of M Special Edition??? 
Secrets of the House of M??? 

from Uncanny X-men #462-465 is 'new' Excalibur #1-3 and then Uncanny X-men #466-468

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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:20 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Welcome to the boards, Chris. One quick request: could you alter the URL in your signature? Right now it's too long and causes the post text to fall off the right side of the page. 

If you want to make the line "my x-men chronology at comix-fan" INTO the url, just do the following (and substitute "[" and "]" for where I've used "{" and "}" ). 

{url=TEXT OF URL}text of line{/url} 

I've deleted your signature (and truncated down the link you posted at the top), but I'll put your sig back when you've made this change. 

We look forward to talking X-chronology with you! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:50 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Going by that link provided by Chrisday, I would like to bring up a paragraph posted by Chris Claremont: 

Quote: 
>>>
There was even a page, subsequently cut just before the issue was sent to the printer (to be hopefully re-inserted as a treat in the trade compilation, but no guarantees) of Wolverine lurking in the hanger bay when the Uncanny team returns to the Mansion considering how best to take down the team and get to Rachel. In other words, on the eve of the last chapter of "EoS." 
<<<


That would confirm that the line given by 'Computer Sage' is indeed a mess up, (She states the President "Was" not "Is" Wolverine's next target). 

I don't think it would be beneficial to declare there was a prior attack on the President, (an idea tossed around earlier in this thread). I think it best to just interpret Sage's line to mean this: "His latest target was learned to be the President". Meaning it hasn't happened yet.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That can't work. UX #460 can't occur on the eve of W3 #25, because Storm is shown at the mansion in W3 #21. So UX #460 has to occur before that point. 

That might be why the page was removed in the first place... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:16 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm leaning toward placing the first 14 pages of UX 460 during the "24 hours" between 13 and 14 of W3 21. At that point, Logan would have just downloaded Defense codes, Pentagon files, White House security details from the SHIELD helicarrier, so POTUS would have been identified as his next target (and we could go with Kevin's interpretation of "was" in Computer Sage's dialog). And right after this, Ororo can appear at the Institute sharing a room with Kitty. 

BTW, welcome to Chrisday. I don't know if you've seen previous threads on this board about the confusing chronology of the Reload comics, but I think we worked things out there, in part by creating a huge gap in ASTONX3 1 that allows the first part of the story to occur at the beginning of the school year and the last part (along with issues #2-6) months later, just prior to UX 460. Unfortunately, the creation of the gap involved the reshuffling of panels on page 18 of ASTONX3 1, but at least beginning-of-year references (which in this case are very hard to ignore) end up making sense. In any case, I'll review your analysis as part of my effort to grapple with recent X-chronology, which is getting rather drawn out...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:02 pm    
By jephyork
Director

How about putting UX #460 pp.1-14 between pp.17-18 of W3 #21 instead? UX #460 mentions that a shoot-to-kill order has been put out on world givernments, and Fury orders the news about Wolverine made relatively public in the scene ending on p.17. It's a slightly better fit for all concerned. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:20 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Unfortunately, the creation of the gap involved the reshuffling of panels on page 18 of ASTONX3 1, but at least beginning-of-year references (which in this case are very hard to ignore) end up making sense.  
<<<

Hmmm...I'm going to throw this out, and it'll probably get shot down as implausible, but...going by where Chrisday puts Astonishing Xmen #1-6 on his timeline, it got me to thinking...maybe...could the "beginning of year" references in Ast. Xmen be made to fit for the start of the next semester, (the Spring semester starting in January)? Thus providing a way to keep us from chopping up Astonishing Xmen #1?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:30 pm    
By Chrisday

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
BTW, welcome to Chrisday. I don't know if you've seen previous threads on this board about the confusing chronology of the Reload comics, but I think we worked things out there, in part by creating a huge gap in ASTONX3 1 that allows the first part of the story to occur at the beginning of the school year and the last part (along with issues #2-6) months later, just prior to UX 460. Unfortunately, the creation of the gap involved the reshuffling of panels on page 18 of ASTONX3 1, but at least beginning-of-year references (which in this case are very hard to ignore) end up making sense. In any case, I'll review your analysis as part of my effort to grapple with recent X-chronology, which is getting rather drawn out... 
<<<

i don't like to have huge gaps like that where none are specified, and regardless, from what we have now with Colossus returning while the XSE were in the savage land, i would prefer to have that "welcome back to the school" speech by Emma Frost being to start the new semester After Christmas in X-men #165. 

i can't remember if there was a comment about the mansion being rebuilt or not, but the brotherhood of mutants did do a lot of damage to the mansion, any comment like that could be a reference to that story... 

also, there's all that confusion as to wearing new and old outfits in X-men #157 that i had to deal with. i looked at explanations here last year with the bleeding of the first arcs of reloaded of x-men, Uncanny, and astonishing together... i hated that. i found it simpler to describe that "first time to have new uniforms" from Beast in Astonishing #1 to simply be a new costume for kitty, but first time those cast members are united as a team... 

anyway, i just wanted to throw my work in here and see what people think 

i haven't read any of "Enemy of the State" except for wolverine #25, so i want to know... where can New Thunderbolts #4 take place within EotS ???

Last edited by Chrisday on Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:36 pm    
By Chrisday

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Going by that link provided by Chrisday, I would like to bring up a paragraph posted by Chris Claremont: 

Quote:
>>>
There was even a page, subsequently cut just before the issue was sent to the printer (to be hopefully re-inserted as a treat in the trade compilation, but no guarantees) of Wolverine lurking in the hanger bay when the Uncanny team returns to the Mansion considering how best to take down the team and get to Rachel. In other words, on the eve of the last chapter of "EoS." 
<<<


That would confirm that the line given by 'Computer Sage' is indeed a mess up, (She states the President "Was" not "Is" Wolverine's next target). 

I don't think it would be beneficial to declare there was a prior attack on the President, (an idea tossed around earlier in this thread). I think it best to just interpret Sage's line to mean this: "His latest target was learned to be the President". Meaning it hasn't happened yet. 
<<<


the line from computer-Sage having past tense i simply interpreted that as being that while the POTUS is the target, wolverine isn't at the white house trying to get in, he's gone into hiding temporarily. after all, Wolverine does manage to suprise Rachel in wolverine #25, they didn't know where he would strike next... 

having said that, i haven't read all of EotS, so i could be wrong

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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
How about putting UX #460 pp.1-14 between pp.17-18 of W3 #21 instead?  
<<<

Is there a gap there? I don't have this issue. What specifically happens in pages 14-17, then in pages 18-23? I just have a summary of the entire block of pages, below. Is the asterisk where the break between pages 17 and 18 is? 

WOLVERINE v3 #21 (14-23) 
The day (24 hours) after W3 21 (1-13). This segment occurs a couple of days after W3 20 (15-17), must occur after UX 460 (1-14), and probably after NX 12. In Manhattan, Nick Fury is in conference with Elektra and top SHIELD agents aboard the Helicarrier. Fury says that trying to locate Wolverine telepathically doesnt work as the Hand has supernatural shields in place. Fury says theyve uncovered what the Hand, Hydra, and Dawn of the White Lights plan is  to kill super-heroes and reanimate them as un-dead warriors to go out and kill others. Fury says theyre going to put all super-heroes on red alert and lock them down until they can capture Wolverine. Air Force One lands on the helicarrier. * That night at the Xavier Institute, Kitty Pryde has tucked all of the younger students of the school into a group room, where theyre to sleep together (so school is in session; probably the second semester). She says the whole school is in lock-down, and everyones sharing rooms. Kitty is sleeping in the same room as Ororo. The last of the Baxter Building employees leave the building. Sue Storm overhears these last two employees bad mouthing the FF and complaining about the evacuation of the building. She then steps inside the Baxter Building, and Ben puts the place into lock-down, but he doesnt know is that Wolverines already inside the building. Emma Frost is BTS. Kitty says to Ororo, All those prayers worked for Peter, right? Fingers crossed they work for Logan now, too.  this places this segment after ASTONX3 6 (20-23).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

Yep -- that asterisk is where the break is. You SURE you don't want an analysis of the arc, Paul? 

And to speak to suggestions, above, that ASTONX3 #1-6 could occur at the beginning of the spring semester ... no. Just no. ASTONX3 #1 is the foundation stone of the X-Men's new phase. It's where Kitty sees the rebuilt mansion for the first time, it's where Cyclops drafts Kitty back in and forms his squad, it's where he first announces the notion of new costumes, it's where Logan first learns of the extent of Cyclops' relationship with Emma. And placing it after fifteen issues of Uncanny and ten issues of X-Men is just goofy. 

It's bad enough that we have to punch a whopping great gap in the issue and move most of the arc up past UX #460, but to suggest that we move the first half of #1 up as well does much too much of a disservice to the story it's trying to tell. 

ASTONX3 #1 is jam-packed with "firsts". There's no feasible way that Cyclops, Emma, Logan and Kitty could have been operating on the same team, in costume, living in the mansion, for an entire semester -- THEN have the events in this issue occur. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:20 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Is there a gap there? I don't have this issue. What specifically happens in pages 14-17, then in pages 18-23? 
<<<

*ahem* Check my old analysis!  


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Yep -- that asterisk is where the break is. You SURE you don't want an analysis of the arc, Paul? 
<<<

I'm not certain, but last I checked, Paul said he started collecting Wolverine with Issue #22, and he asked for a review for 20 and 21, which I gave here: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1203 

Of course, this is not to say you can't feel free to do your own review, Jeph. I may have bungled it completely, or missed something. 


Quote: 
>>>
It's bad enough that we have to punch a whopping great gap in the issue and move most of the arc up past UX #460, but to suggest that we move the first half of #1 up as well does much too much of a disservice to the story it's trying to tell.  
<<<

Well, that's why I bring up the possibility... 

What's the more drastic step? Punching a hole and rearranging panels in Astonishing Xmen #1, or moving the whole arc to the next semester? 


Quote: 
>>>
It's where Kitty sees the rebuilt mansion for the first time, 
<<<

Where else does Kitty appear besides the pages Astonishing Xmen? I know she's in the Pheonix: Endsong miniseries, and in Uncanny Xmen #460, and in the pages of Enemy of the State. ALL of which we have happening after Astonishing Xmen #1-6, (which Chrisday proposes at the start of the next semester). I know Kitty appears at the Baseball game in Uncanny Xmen #444, but maybe the school wasn't totally rebuilt in those opening pages? (thus, making Ast. Xmen #1 truly the first time she's seen the school rebuilt)? I notice that on page 2 Shan Coy Manh refers to it as being a "sunny summer afternoon"...well, didn't the school not get started till fall, (thus, not totally rebuilt till Fall)? Wasn't there talk at one time of spreading out the events of Uncanny Xmen #444? I'm not saying you could place other issues in a gap in Uncanny Xmen #444 neccesarily, but stretching out those opening scenes might help... 


Quote: 
>>>
it's where he first announces the notion of new costumes 
<<<

But as has been discussed, for many of the Astonishing team, it's not truly the first time they've worn the costumes. 

Maybe that commencement speech by Emma in Ast. Xmen #1 was for the new semester? 

I'm just throwing this out, I'm not particularly fond of the idea myself, but I'm not really fond of punching holes and rearranging panels in Ast. Xmen #1
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:36 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
It's where he first announces the notion of new costumes 
<<<

But as has been discussed, for many of the Astonishing team, it's not truly the first time they've worn the costumes. 
<<<

Okay, let me try that one again. Although ASTONX3 #1 pp.19-24 is NOT the first time they WEAR the costumes -- the scene in ASTONX3 #1 pp.14-17 *IS* where Cyclops announces them for the first time. Things go like this: 

ASTONX3 #1 pp.14-17 - Cyclops announces the costumes. Logan reacts poorly, Hank is "dying to see" them. 
X #157 - some characters are shown in the new outfits, some in the old. 
(Many more X-books, including UX #444-460. Everyone switches to the new outfits.) 
ASTONX3 #1 pp.19-24 - everyone's wearing the new outfits. Again. 

What we're all debating would look like this: 

(Many many issues of everyone wearing the new outfits.) 
ASTONX3 #1 - Cyclops announces new outfits, Logan reacts poorly to the concept, and Hank is "dying to see" them. 

WTF? No. 

Also: 

Quote: 
>>>
Where else does Kitty appear besides the pages Astonishing Xmen? 
<<<

X #157 and #165 off the top of my head, both of which are cemented before UX #455. In #165 she's living at the new mansion with Rachel. We want her to be marveling at the new mansion AFTER that? No. 


Quote: 
>>>
I notice that on page 2 [of UX #444] Shan Coy Manh refers to it as being a "sunny summer afternoon"...well, didn't the school not get started till fall, (thus, not totally rebuilt till Fall)? 
<<<

If temporal references really matter that much, X #157 tells us that it's "August" and in that issue we see the school semester beginning and the mansion fully rebuilt. August is still technically summer. The references work -- the school was fully rebuilt and open by the end of "summer". 

And, re: "Enemy of the State": 


Quote: 
>>>
this is not to say you can't feel free to do your own review, Jeph. I may have bungled it completely, or missed something. 
<<<

Nah, I'm sure you did a good job -- I just feel it's beneficial to review story arcs as a whole, so as not to miss clues that might slip through if you look at one issue at a time. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm not particularly fond of the idea myself, but I'm not really fond of punching holes and rearranging panels in Ast. Xmen #1 
<<<

If the "rearranging of panels" actually reversed a character's apparent chronological order, I'd be against it. But there's no character overlap between the scenes I'm talking about -- I'm just suggesting switching the Kavita Rao scene on p.18 panels 1-2 and the Institute scene on p.18 panels 3-5. Dr. Rao still appears on p.18 and then on p.19, and Kitty and Wolverine still appear on p.17, 18 and then 21, in that order. 

The ONLY thing the scene swap does it HELP us -- by allowing us to posit that Dr. Rao DIDN'T give her speech on the same night as the new teams were formed. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:26 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm with Jeph - if it's going to be necessary to splice a gaping hole into the middle of ASTONISHING X-MEN #1, then that strikes me as the best place to put it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:45 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Good points, Jeph. I was for the most part trying to play devil's advocate, exploring the possibility of moving Ast. Xmen #1-6 to the next semester, but you raise many good points against doing so. 

Quote: 
>>>
Nah, I'm sure you did a good job -- I just feel it's beneficial to review story arcs as a whole, so as not to miss clues that might slip through if you look at one issue at a time.  
<<<

Oh, I agree. That's why I wait till a story arc ends before doing a review. Those were simply the issues Paul asked for though, and so I supplied them. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Oh, I agree. That's why I wait till a story arc ends before doing a review. Those were simply the issues Paul asked for though, and so I supplied them.  
<<<

And it's much appreciated...even if details were forgotten by yours truly.  So to recap Jeph's placement of the first part of X 460, the following segments occur in this order, all on the same day: 

W3 21 (14-17) -- 24 hours after W3 21 (1-13) 
X 460 (1-14) 
W3 21 (18-23) -- that same night 

Correct?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:21 am    
By jephyork
Director

That looks perfect. And that'd place Emma Frost in UX #460 pp.1-14 *after* her BTS appearance in W3 #21 pp.14-17 ... rather than, in the old suggested placement, before. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:59 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, I went back over my notes and drew up a new X-chronology from the Christmas of UX 165 onward, without looking at Chrisday's post. (I figured we hammered out most things before that holiday, with the exception of C&DP, noted later below.) Then I compared what I produced with Chrisday's post. By and large, we agree. Here's my list, as it currently stands, with brackets denoting a flexible, approximate placement: 

X 165 
M/HOL04 1/2 
NX 7 - NX 9 
NX 10 - NX 12 
UX 455 - UX 457 (1-16) 
ASTONX3 1 (18-24) - ASTONX3 6 
W3 20 (2p3-14) 
TB2 4 - TB2 6 
W3 22-FB 
[UX 457 (17-22) - UX 459] 
W3 20 (15-24) - W3 21 (1-17) 
UX 460 (1-14) 
W3 21 (18-23) - W3 22 
INV3 6 - INV3 9 
W3 23 - W3 24 
W3 25 - W3 27 ~ NX 13 
W3 28 - W3 31 
X:PE 1 - X:PE 5 
UX 460 (15-22) - UX 461 
ASTONX3 7 - ASTONX3 12 
X4 1 - X4 5 
X 166 - X 174 
M/TU3 1- M/TU3 12 
[ROGUE3 7 - ROGUE3 12] 
SECWAR 1 - SECWAR 5 ~ PULSE 6 - PULSE 9 
[XCAL3 11 (9-22) - XCAL3 14] 
A4 1 - A4 6 
A4 7 - A4 11 
NA/FF 
HOM 1 ~ NX 14 ~ NX:H 1 

I did note that Sage's use of a working Danger Room in UX 460 (15-22) puts UX 461 before ASTONX3 7, the start of the story line in which the Danger Room goes rogue and, apparently, is removed, as noted in X 171. 

Two calendar-related notes at this point: 
1) We're going to have to lengthen the time the XSE team spends in the Savage Land. The "days" that separate pages 16 and 17 of UX 457 may be on the order of "15 days." That's probably okay, though, given that Bishop notes in UX 460 that weve been away a lot longer than we anticipated...and out of communication. 
2) We're going to have to shorten the span of Enemy of the State/ Wolverine, Agent of SHIELD. There's supposed to be "one month" between pages 14 and 15 of W3 20, then "three months" between page 13 of W3 21 and W3 28. I'm inclined to be technical about the "one month" reference (maybe a week straddling months) and "pull a Cable" with the three months reference and make it three weeks instead.  
But I digress... 

I added the "X"-Mas story from M/HOL'04 1/2, which has an obvious placement. 

I also placed X4 1-5, which Chrisday didn't note. It seems to me that the X4 miniseries occurs after ASTONX3 7-12, given the FF's appearance in ASTONX3 7 and the dialog contained therein... 
Reed: Your teams saved the world more times than they know. Sue: But not with the Fantastic Four at your side and dozens of news cameras running. Scott: Well, that wasnt exactly a drawback, no... Emma: That came out wrong. Of course wed be nothing but pleased if this helps the mutant community. Johnny: But what if it backfires? What if the press brands us a menace? (Johnny seems sensitive about the FFs rep in light of recent events.) The "FF at your side" comment wouldn't make much sense in ASTONX3 7 if the two teams had recently fought the Brood in X4; of course in X4 the role of the mutants in saving the world was intentionally downplayed. And Johnny doesn't seem as as concerned about the FF's rep in X4 as he does in ASTONX3 7. BTW, neither Kitty nor Colossus appear in X4; perhaps they're on a little R&R getting reacquainted. 

I also inserted M/TU3 1-12 and SECWAR-PULSE, based on recent discussions about placement. Same with New Avengers/Fantastic Four. 

Unlike Chrisday, I've placed NX 7-9 after the Christmas of X 165, not before. I have a different take on Gambit's blindness -- he was blind, then Sage healed him, then he could teach classes. I have NX 7-9 occurring at the beginning of the new year, after the holiday break, but before Kim Alleyne's school resumes classes. Then I place NX 10-12 right after this. In NX 10, it's the first day of Cyclops' elective class on leadership, and that makes sense at the start of that second semester at Xavier's. Some temporal references work (the "freezing" weather in NX 7), and some just don't (the autumn colors in NX 7-9 and the green trees in NX 10-12), but hey, whatcha gonna do? 

I have one minor suggestion for Chrisday: you may want to move TB2 7-8 back on your list, as TB2 7 occurs only "a few days" after TB2 6. 

Then, one major suggestion: a re-evaluation of the C&DP series. This has been problematic from the start. First, we have a mobile Xavier appearing in issue #3, so it's before the Xorneto attack from way back early in the summer of "last year." Cable's messing around with being a savior has to go on for quite some time; maybe heroes are dealing with it ineffectively for months BTS? 

I think Chrisday has placed C&DP 14+ and XFOR2 1-6 too late. XFOR2 needs to happen before UX 453. In UX 453, Storm believes that Roberto has rejoined Cables cause. And C&DP 17 should occur before X 165. Sam Guthrie is in X 165, playing hookie from X-Force, according to the narration. Cannonball doesn't re-join X-Force until after XFOR2 6, which occurs only "four days" before C&D 15 (6-11), and "four days" after that, we have the current issue leading into #16. But we better hope there's a HUGE gap somewhere between C&DP 16 and 17 if that latter issue is supposed to tie into House of M, because X 165 is months before HOM.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:54 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Unlike Chrisday, I've placed NX 7-9 after the Christmas of X 165, not before. I have a different take on Gambit's blindness -- he was blind, then Sage healed him, then he could teach classes. I have NX 7-9 occurring at the beginning of the new year, after the holiday break, but before Kim Alleyne's school resumes classes. Then I place NX 10-12 right after this. In NX 10, it's the first day of Cyclops' elective class on leadership, and that makes sense at the start of that second semester at Xavier's. Some temporal references work (the "freezing" weather in NX 7), and some just don't (the autumn colors in NX 7-9 and the green trees in NX 10-12), but hey, whatcha gonna do? 
<<<

Go with authorial intent, which was clearly stated to be that Haunted was in the autumn semester (around Halloween time) and TMI in the spring, and write off Gambit's cameo as an error, ala Captain Britain in XM25? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
have one minor suggestion for Chrisday: you may want to move TB2 7-8 back on your list, as TB2 7 occurs only "a few days" after TB2 6. 
<<<

Then, one major suggestion: a re-evaluation of the C&DP series. This has been problematic from the start. First, we have a mobile Xavier appearing in issue #3, so it's before the Xorneto attack from way back early in the summer of "last year." Cable's messing around with being a savior has to go on for quite some time; maybe heroes are dealing with it ineffectively for months BTS? 

I think Chrisday has placed C&DP 14+ and XFOR2 1-6 too late. XFOR2 needs to happen before UX 453. In UX 453, Storm believes that Roberto has rejoined Cables cause. And C&DP 17 should occur before X 165. Sam Guthrie is in X 165, playing hookie from X-Force, according to the narration. Cannonball doesn't re-join X-Force until after XFOR2 6, which occurs only "four days" before C&D 15 (6-11), and "four days" after that, we have the current issue leading into #16. 

There's no X-Force in Cable/Deadpool. Cannonball's turned up at Providence with Siryn (who wasn't even in the XF mini), with no sight, sign or mention of a functional X-Force team, to look for Cable off his own back. Maybe Siryn went because she heard DP was hanging about, it's less than clear. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
But we better hope there's a HUGE gap somewhere between C&DP 16 and 17 if that latter issue is supposed to tie into House of M, because X 165 is months before HOM. 
<<<

At best, that's 50/50 and depends on there being a big montage reality-hopping sequence in C/D 16. 

Best hope I'd say if you're worried about it is to lengthen the gap between C/D #12 and #13, while Cable's recuperating. Those Claremont XF references don't look like they're going to fit in the slightest anyway, as there's no evidence of a functioning X-Force in C/D #15 and no sign of a follow-up mini since Liefeld said "no".

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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Go with authorial intent, which was clearly stated to be that Haunted was in the autumn semester (around Halloween time) and TMI in the spring, and write off Gambit's cameo as an error, ala Captain Britain in XM25? 
<<<

No, not a la Captain Britain in X 25. 

Calendar placement bows to the stories. If following the stories requires that certain temporal references be declared topical, then so be it. Furthermore, Captain Britain in X 25 is declared an error because no story ordering of *any* kind allows Captain Britain to appear in X 25, and remain true to the story. 

Feel free to state your case...I'm not a party to the discussion of the order of these stories, but as I understand it, it's not analogous to the Captain Britain/X 25 dilemma. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody said: 
>>>
There's no X-Force in Cable/Deadpool.  
<<<

I'm not suggesting there is an "X-Force" in C&DP 15-16. All I'm saying is that: (a) Cannonball definitely was NOT a member of X-Force before XFOR2 6 (and so must have become a member afterward -- a likely scenario given the storyline) and; (b) C&DP 15-16 follow closely on the heels of XFOR2 6. Given those two clues, I'm placing X 165 after C&DP 16. Again, we'll see if there's a big gap in C&DP 16 or between C&DP 16 and 17. If such a gap occurs, the scenario above may work best. I'm not sure why you're pessimistic at this point about such a gap coming; actually, other recent books have featured big gaps. But we'll see... 


Quote: 
>>>
Those Claremont XF references don't look like they're going to fit in the slightest anyway,  
<<<

Why won't they, exactly?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Where in X #171 does it claim that the Danger Room was removed? I caught Gambit's line about "this used to be called the Danger Room", which seems like where you're getting that from -- but earlier in the issue his class is fighting in a pipe-covered environment that then vanishes when the combat ends. You can actually see it fading away in one panel. And later on, you can pretty clearly see the inside of the Danger Room observation booth watching Gambit work out. 

I had no idea why Gambit was saying "this USED TO BE called the Danger Room" ... maybe it was a quick editorial rewrite, as the scene would seem to make much more sense if it was in the present tense: "They call this the Danger Room ... but lately it hasn't felt all that dangerous." 

But the art seems to think that the room is still in good shape. Hmm. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good catch with those fading pipes, Jeph. Gambit's remarks, though, make me think that this story is supposed to occur after ASTONX3 12, which I suspect will feature the defeat of the sentient Danger Room and result in a change in the status quo of the Institute's training facility. I guess we'll see what that new status quo will be and if it allows fading pipes but not much else. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It'll depend on the status quo that we settle down to, I agree. X 171 goes out of its way to point out that the room is no longer called the Danger Room. It must take place after ASTONX3 7-12, since the statement simply isn't true before that point. 

Nonetheless, X 171 also shows that the room still creates some form of virtual reality environment. That could be a mistake, or it could be that the X-Men replace the Danger Room with something else - similar but less dangerous technology. 

If they don't, then there's no way that I can see of squaring the two references in X 171. The dialogue would take precedence, in my view, because it's much more prominent and it references ASTONX3 7-12.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:29 pm    
By Somebody

Oh, Re: C/D #16. Issue takes place over less than half an hour.

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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:41 pm    
By Hotcharokey

In X 171, on page 6, Havok says, "Bobby's class is a little light since the accident." Does anyone know what accident he is talking about?

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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:52 pm    
By Somebody

Re: Hellions 

According to the writers, this is going to be a problem. It was intended to be post-HoM, as was their wrap-up issue (which was going to be NXMAX20, but is now a one-shot), but that the new writers' first issue is going to lead directly out of HoM - hence their wrap-up being shoved into a one-shot set pre-HoM - leaving no room for Hellions afterward.

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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

We'll find a way. Let's wait 'til the issues come out before worrying. 

And I have to say, the prospect of even one more issue from DeFillipis and Weir fills me with great joy.  

-Jeph!

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Thread 7

Posted: 04 Jul 2005 11:34 pm    Post subject: Correction Debate Question?
By Jason Doty

On many cases I've debated the placements that have been posted on the MCP, and not from the standpoint that I like it beter placed somewhere else, and after discussion and debate they never seem to get a final verdict from the administrator or board. 

If we argue a case and win, can we get a "sort" of word of approval, and hopefully a correction to the listings in a certain time frame? (Maybe a set number of updates, before it is corrected.) 

I only ask, because they seem to be forgotten as time goes on, and then we have to bring them up again or attempt to search the posting board for the original debate. 

Is there a system we can use on corrections? 

I'm not addressing this to be disrespectful or saying there needs to be a time limit. I'm just curious where the corrections I've suggested stand or is there further debate behind the scenes on these matters?

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Posted: 05 Jul 2005 07:37 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

They're not forgotten, although it may seem that way. Enough time needs to pass to make sure there are no legitimate objections to suggested placement. While I'll be the first to admit that it takes longer for adjustments to make their way into the Project than it should, realize that it's possible for months to go by without a response in a thread, before someone says, "You know, wait a minute. What about...?", as witnessed recently by the The Canonicity of Inter-Company Crossovers thread. 

There are times when private discussions can go on, which start from public discussions on the forum, but that is rare. The great majority of the discussion is in front of everyone. 

We used to say that if no one objected to a placement in thirty days, it went into the Project, but that's clearly not practical any more, with my schedule and personal workload. So the best answer I can give (and I hate to say it this way, because it sounds snotty, but I can't think of a better way to put it) is that I update it when I can. 

I bounce back and forth between (1) closing the gap; (2) trying to catch up on more current books; and (3) making adjustments suggested on the forums. I tend to concentrate on one of them, until people start saying, "When are you going to do so-and-so?" 

As for your works, I can say that your placements for DCVM went up in September, and your original placements for UA were added to the listings in April (although the first *update* after that was last month). 

So no, they're not forgotten. That's not to say that just because a "correction" was pointed out, or that the original poster wasn't convinced that their point was incorrect, that it'll get in, at some point... 

If their post convinces us, then it's not forgotten; it'll get in. I just can't give you a date. 


watching: american morning

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Thread 8

Posted: 08 Jul 2005 06:11 pm    Post subject: Franklin Richards
By rhod

How come Franklin doesn't get a BTS for FF@5 and FF 68-82?

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 06:18 pm    
By shandrakor

Am I correct that you're suggesting his BTS because he was an infant in a back room somewhere? 

As I understand it, BTS has more to do with impacting the story while not making an apperance than with just being present in a building that's shown. That's why, for example, every issue of every X-title doesn't have BTS apperances for every single mutant residing in the mansion.

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 06:41 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ummm....is it because he wasn't born until FF@ 6? 


watching: paula zahn

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Posted: 09 Jul 2005 03:57 am  
By rhod

Well, Sue Richards is pregnant at this time, and clearly feeling the effects. In this way, it could be certainly be argued that Franklin is influencing the characters and events in these issues.

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Posted: 09 Jul 2005 07:31 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Marvel says that in utero fetuses do not qualify as behind-the-scenes appearances. I agree. Others will tend to disagree. 


watching: fantastic four

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Thread 9

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:07 am    Post subject: Marvel Girl, Beast, and the Atlantis Attacks Annuals
By metaldragon

I see you have Marvel Girl and Beast's appearance in the Atlantis Attacks Annuals between X-Factor # 42 and 43. This cannot be correct. It would be a good spot for those issues to go if the New Mutants Atlantis Attacks Annual didn't exist. 

The New Mutants Annual #5 takes place between pannels on the last page of New Mutants #87 just before they see X-Factor's ship returning from space (as seen in X-Factor #51). This is explicit. The overall storyline of the Atlantis Attacks Annuals show us that the events in New Mutants Annual #5 take place before the events in X-Factor Annual #4 and the other annuals that follow. 

The New Mutants and X-Factor all appear together in New Mutants #88 which takes place concurrent with and immediately after X-Factor #51. The continuity from X-Factor #51 all the way up to #58 seems to be very tight with Archangel's storyline but it's hard to determine exactly how much time has passed between #51 & 52. 

In X-Factor #52 it is obviously winter with ice and snow everywhere (and Opal's Santa hat) but in X-Factor #51, there dosen't appear to be any and the New Mutants don't seem to be freezing to death in New Mutants #88 (Rictor has no shirt on, just a vest) and they'd just been in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Manhattan! In #52 Archangel is still brooding about the accident in #51 but he's become a really broody and obsessed guy since Apocalypse made him grow metalic wings so this could be the next day or even a couple of days later. Sabertooth spots him in #51 and attacks him in #52 but he could have been stalking Archangel for a while before finally getting a shot at him. 

The reason why the Atlantis Attacks story can't go after X-Factor #58 is because Jean appears in Uncanny X-Men #261-264 (which crossover with X-Factor #54-57) and those issues happen after the Seige Perilous events and Storm was de-aged by Nanny. 

So what this means is that there must be a gap between New Mutants #88 and X-Factor #52 of at least a day (but probably a lot more!) where Marvel Girl gets kidnapped by Ghaur, the Beast tries to save her, and Archangel is obviously not around to fly after them. This also gives her another bunch of reasons for rejecting Cyclops' marriage proposal in X-Factor #53 as she had just narrowly excapted becoming the mother of Atuma's children, as well as being a Bride of Set...! lol! 

Still, makes you wonder where Cyclops and Iceman were during all this... 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:46 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
The reason why the Atlantis Attacks story can't go after X-Factor #58 is because Jean appears in Uncanny X-Men #261-264 (which crossover with X-Factor #54-57) and those issues happen after the Seige Perilous events and Storm was de-aged by Nanny. 
<<<

Metaldragon, this is one of my pet peeves, which we've addressed recently here. Read this paragraph again--carefully--and I hope you'll see that your reasoning is very muddy, as it's presented. I think I understand where you're going, but you haven't gotten there. When explaining why the listings are wrong, you have to assume the readers haven't read any of the books. 

You've failed to draw a connection between point A (Jean in UX 261-264) and point B (Siege Perilous and Storm de-aging). I'm not disputing your claim, but your logic in this paragraph is flawed. Restate your reasoning. 


watching: fantastic four

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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:53 pm    
By metaldragon

I stated this as a general frame of reference for Marvel Girl's and Beast's appearances in the X-Men's continuity. Marvel Girl and Beast last saw the X-Men in the Inferno crossover (X-Men #243/X-Factor #39). They next see Colossus in X-Men #264/X-Factor #57 which takes place after he goes through the Seige Perilous and looses his memory (finally found it: in Uncanny X-Men #251!), so Storm's appearance alongside Marvel Girl in the Atlantis Attacks annuals could not happen after Uncanny X-Men #264 because Storm was de-aged by Nanny behind the scenes in Uncanny X-Men #248. (Sorry, I didn't have my X-Men Index on hand to look those up at the time.) 

I see Storm's appearance in the Atlantis Attacks Annuals happens between Uncanny X-Men #245 and #246. So in conclusion, even though only 2 issues of Uncanny have gone by for the X-Men since Inferno and before Atlantis Attacks, 12 issues of X-Factor have gone by during that time frame for X-Factor. Sorry, when I wrote the original post it was getting pretty late. With issue numbers in place, my "muddy reasoning" becomes clear now?  

Oh, and for anyone wondering what happens to X-Factor during issues 43-51, the Celestials summon Ship to a distant planet where they are holding judgement over the entire population. X-Factor help unite the warring peoples of the planet and drive off the Celestials by channeling the powers of the people through Marvel Girl which purges her of the Madelyne and Phoenix personalities and begins re-awakening her telepathic powers. So obviously the Atlantis Attacks story can't take place anytime between those issues.  

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:26 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
With issue numbers in place, my "muddy reasoning" becomes clear now? 
<<<

You do need issue numbers to help clarify, but that wasn't the flaw in the logic. 

This statement: 

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
...so Storm's appearance alongside Marvel Girl in the Atlantis Attacks annuals... 
<<<

was missing in the original post, and this is the key that allows you to go from point A to point B. Much better. 


watching: hurricane dennis

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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:22 pm    
By metaldragon

Ah! I see the confusion now! Sorry! I assumed my fellow readers knew that in Avengers West Coast Annual #4, Thor Annual #14, and Fantastic Four Annual #22, Marvel Girl and Storm become the Brides of Set along with She-Hulk, Dagger, Scarlet Witch, Andromeda, and Invisible Woman. These issues follow on from the stories in Uncanny X-Men Annual #13, New Mutant Annual #5, and X-Factor Annual #4 and form the conclusion to the whole Atlantis Attacks crossover storyline. The Beast helps the rest of the heroes fight Ghaur and his allies during these issues. 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yeah, but your fellow readers have twenty thousand stories to keep track of here.  


watching: world news tonight

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Thread 10

Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 5:24 am    Post subject: Marvel Time
By Truebeliever

The sliding timeline as Marvel states it and most Marvel fans understand it just doesnt work for me. It requires periodically resetting the dates on old stories which becomes more and more problematic 

Personally I prefer an approach which states 

Fantastic Four 1 occurs in the early sixities.... 
It is now the early 80s.... 

For various reasons science and technological and cultural advances have occured much more rapidly in the marvel universe than they have in our own.. 

This approach eliminates headaches such as worrying how some characters fought in World War II and are still young or trying to explain away the MANY cold war stories of the 60s, 70s and 80s. 

Comments?

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Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 6:15 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That's my preferred approach as well, but unfortunately it's not Marvel's. The approach you (and I) champion does preserve the integrity of stories set in the '60s and '70s (and that's a big plus). However, the integrity of some contemporary stories falls apart because Marvel likes them to be set in the early twenty-first century and retcons back-stories so the passage of time makes sense to the reader. It is getting impossible to reconcile everything so that integrity is preserved across the board. (And truth to tell, I'd rather save the early stories than take everything in current stories as written, but that's probably because I've been a fan-boy for more than 35 years.) This is a pet peeve of mine.
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Sat May 28, 2005 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 6:04 pm    
By RLG

Amen brothers and sisters!!!! 

But, I would add that the debate of which "DECADE" FF 1 occurred in is a total waste of time. The "YEAR 1, YEAR 2, etc." system avoids this endless debate. 

- RLG

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Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:36 pm    
By stavesacre79

I realize that to most of you this question is going to sound blasephemous but as I'm fairly new to the world of Marvel I would ask you to humor me. How exactly does this "sliding timeline" work? And has it been officially endorsed by representatives of Marvel? A basic question though complicated I'm sure. Any input people can provide will be most appreciated.

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Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 9:46 pm    
By Somebody

In a nutshell, it means that comics published some time ago are treated as being far more recent within the comics as a means to keep them relatively youthful - i.e., the Fantastic Four are treated as having been on their infamous rocket trip around twelve years ago (although Bendis references it as 15), meaning it's treated as having occurred in 1992-93 right now, while next year it'll be 1993-94. Also, there was around five MU years between Amazing Spider-Man #150 and #400, the first group of New Mutants formed around 6-7 years ago, etc, etc. 

And yes, Paul B's calendar on this very site likes to treat it as something like twice that time, but all the temporal references within the comics put it nowhere near that long. In another nutshell, the Human Torch would be in his 40s if it was that long ago, and he's clearly not, while Franklin Richards would be a bona fide teenager - basically, everyone would be the age they are in Spider-Girl in the real MU. And as he says above, he doesn't like the sliding timeline. I do.

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Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 10:03 pm    
By garbonzo

as for whether or not this has been "oficially endorsed'" Marvel has stated several time over the years in many letter columns (especially in the 80's) that Marvel time moves slower than real time. 

Where it all comes to a head is with characters like Captain America and Iron Man who have their origins tied to specific points in time (i.e WWII and Viet Nam). What will eventually happen is either a) Marvel will do a series of jarring ret-cons where they rapidly update everyone's chronology and origin (like the recent change in Iron Man's origin to the war on terror in Afghanistan) or b: a wholesale realignment of the Marvel Universe through a cataclysmic event (ala Crisis on Infinite Earths and Zero Hour). 

People have been claiming that House of M is what is going to be that event, but I'm not to sure. Marvel seems content with catching characters up one origin at a time. But, I digress. Feel free to move this to the chat forum if needed. 

Just don't mess with my post count!!! 

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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:28 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

stavesacre79 wrote: 
I realize that to most of you this question is going to sound blasephemous but as I'm fairly new to the world of Marvel I would ask you to humor me. How exactly does this "sliding timeline" work? And has it been officially endorsed by representatives of Marvel? A basic question though complicated I'm sure. Any input people can provide will be most appreciated. 


The "sliding timeline" approach has been official Marvel policy since at least the early 1980s, as can be seen from various editorials over the years (particularly Mark Gruenwald's, since he got very excited about that sort of thing), and the mere existence of books like MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION. 

If Marvel comics took place in real time, then Spider-Man would have debuted in 1963 and would now be in his mid-fifties. He plainly isn't, so real time is obviously out the window on any view. Marvel's official approach is that, at least for purposes of present-day continuity, previous stories are not tied to the year they came out. Instead, they take place a nebulous "X years ago". The debut of the FF - traditionally taken as the starting point for the modern Marvel Universe - used to be pinned as ten years ago, but Marvel started lengthening it a bit in the late 1980s and these days they tend to dodge the question altogether. This is probably a deliberate policy decision - the Marvel timeline is fraught with logical difficulties and for the purposes of the average reader, it's arguably better to leave it as vague as possible and appeal to artistic licence to justify any anomalies. 

In any event, this means that over the years the debut of the FF has been dragged gently forward through time, so that it now takes place "X years ago" - presumably somewhere in the early nineties. Of course, this has the side effect of opening up a gaping hole in continuity from 1961 to "X years ago"; MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION was an attempt to fill that gap by introducing a raft of superheroes who were active during this newly-opened continuity hole. 

The strength of the "sliding timeline" approach is that it allows the characters to remain at the age Marvel want, and it allows stories to take place in the eternal present. The disadvantage, obviously, is that it undermines stories which were particularly tied to historical events. There's no consistent approach on how to deal with these. Sometimes it's just taken as artistic licence and ignored. Sometimes (but rarely) the story is allowed to stick in its original form - the Punisher is a rare example of a character who has been allowed to get older, in order to retain his Vietnam service. Sometimes stories are simply rewritten - Iron Man's origin has gone through numerous revisals. And sometimes the problem is just swept under the carpet until such time as it's absolutely necessary to address it - as with a large number of Soviet-era characters who are now serious anomalies, since the Soviet Union fell before they ever debuted.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:19 am    
By Truebeliever

I really wish that back when this kind of thing became neccessary marvel had taken a more creative approach. Numerous ways of retarding their characters ages were available to them in the marvel universe... Magic Spells, genetic modification, various kinds of time travel... that wouldnt have required sacrificing the coherence of their now over 40 year old narrative and could have kept the characters in their prime. 

I realise second guessing an editorial decision that was made several decades ago is a little pointless, but I do wish they had showed a little vision in this regard all those years ago

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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:49 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

There comes a time when that sort of thing gets ridiculous and transparent, though. Perhaps if they did a one-off event that retarded the aging of everyone, it might work, but it would still be clumsy. Especially when being applied to supposedly normal characters like Jonah Jameson and Flash Thompson.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

That would only work for a minority of characters. It's not simply a question of keeping Spider-Man eternally young - you've got to do the same thing for his supporting cast as well. That's just not viable.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:21 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Instead, they take place a nebulous "X years ago".  
<<<

Not only does the timeline slide, but the value of "x" is variable. And if, say, 5 additional "MU" years of stories pass, the value inevitably gets collapsed to 3, 2, or even 1. As real time passes, more and more published Marvel stories get crammed into an ever-tightening timeframe in order to prevent characters from aging. So the timeline not only slides forward, but it compresses as it moves. I think someone has referred to this as the "caterpillar rule." 

IMHO, these aspects of Marvel Time are too fantastic a model for the natural order of the universe, even one as fantastic as the MU. I think grounding the MU in fundamental principles of time-space would help make the stories more real, but from a marketing standpoint, it would give Marvel's popular characters a finite shelf-life that they can't afford. Of course, Marvel could press the "reset" button on Marvel Time and get more mileage out of their eternally young cast, but that runs the risk of invalidating the canonical mythos that came before...and that would alienate long-term Marvel fanatics. Makes me wonder what's in store for House of M...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I think it's extremely unlikely that they'd ever bother with an outright reboot of the Marvel Universe, if only because they've already got the Ultimate books for that. On the other hand, a bit of streamlining of Marvel history is entirely plausible. Any universe which doesn't run on real time inevitably accumulates some logical problems, and even more clutter, after 44 years of operation.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:00 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I think the Ultimate universe has helped somewhat with the continuity of the regular universe. Now we can FINALLY tell tales of an adult Peter Parker, because those who want an young Peter Parker can read Ultimate Spiderman. So now in the regular universe, Peter can now teach school, (not be one of the students). The Editors at Marvel need to realise they can actually go a step farther with this though, and do some real aging with their characters...could it possibly be time for Franklin Richards to actually become a teenager?!? 

*which is kinda what he looked like in last week's Fantastic Four 527.*
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:41 pm    
By PeteD

I'm just catching up with ASM, so apologies if this has been discussed, but in ASM 515, p2,panel 1, Peter Parker talks about his life having been fair game for vice-principals for the last twenty years. 

As I'm in the UK, you will be able to set that comment more accurately than I, but it sounds like Marvel are currently placing Peter Parker/Spider-Man's age at around 27 ( assuming he started school around 6/7. 

Peter.

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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:32 pm    
By Chris McCarver

Since I'm currently doing a brief timeline for a freebie web publication, they way I have Marvel Time ironed out is over a 15-year framework. 

Stories published 1961-63: Marvel Year 1 
1964-66: Marvel Year 2 
1967-69: Marvel Year 3 
1970-72: Marvel Year 4 
1973-75: Marvel Year 5 
1976-78: Marvel Year 6 
1979-81: Marvel Year 7 
1982-84: Marvel Year 8 
1985-87: Marvel Year 9 
1988-90: Marvel Year 10 
1991-93: Marvel Year 11 
1994-96: Marvel Year 12 
1997-99: Marvel Year 13 
2000-02: Marvel Year 14 
2003-present: Marvel Year 15 

BTW, new poster here. Hi. 
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Welcome, Chris. Great to have another Marvel chronologist aboard!  

I notice that you have a consistent ratio of three real years to one MU year throughout the 45-year history of the post-FF 1 Marvel Universe. In actuality, the ratios differ as you move through time. George Olshevsky's work, drawing heavily on Peter Parker's progression through high school and college, concludes that the ratio is lower for comics published in the '60s and early '70s, but then Marvel Time slows down in later years. We probably have a situation in which the ratio rises and falls from year to year. When a cumulative sum of short-term temporal references in the comics themselves are added up, unfortunately you end up with a number of years that is more that Marvel would care to admit. I estimate about 22 years since FF 1, but that's an unpopular interpretation. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:40 pm    
By stavesacre79

Okay, I understand sliding time now. Many thanks for that. But... it doesn't seem to work. How many Christmas adventures has Spider-Man had? The same could be asked of the FF, X-Men, Iron Man, etc. - really anyone who's been around since the beginning. So does this mean that there are multiple Christmases or Halloweens per year in the MU? Couldn't a feasable answer simply be that while based in our "reality" the characters of the MU age slower than us. Franklin Richards can still be a child even though he's been around for 30 years of adventures. 

Also, I noticed Paul said that Iron Man's origin has been redone. Does this mean that Tales Of Suspense #39 isn't canon? That seems... odd to me (to say the least.)

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Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

stavesacre79 wrote: 
>>>
Okay, I understand sliding time now. Many thanks for that. But... it doesn't seem to work.  
<<<

No version of Marvel time really works. It's an inevitable consequence of Marvel simultaneously attempting to be topical, and yet not allow their characters to age over a 40 year period. At some point you just have to shrug your shoulders, chalk it up to artistic licence, and accept that it's always going to have glitches.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:20 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So does this mean that there are multiple Christmases or Halloweens per year in the MU?  
<<<

Well, yes and no. There's only one "true" Christmas or Halloween in an MU calendar year, but you'll often find more than one period in an MU calendar year in which there are Christmas or Halloween stories. Some of the stories have to be chalked up as "topical references," to coin a phrase from George Olshevsky. A "topical reference" is one that might be "current" from the perspective of the comic reader, but doesn't really work in an MU calendar. As Paul O'Brien notes, you have to ignore those references or explain them away somehow. A regrettable fact, I'm afraid.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:08 am    
By Chris McCarver

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Welcome, Chris. Great to have another Marvel chronologist aboard!  

I notice that you have a consistent ratio of three real years to one MU year throughout the 45-year history of the post-FF 1 Marvel Universe. In actuality, the ratios differ as you move through time. George Olshevsky's work, drawing heavily on Peter Parker's progression through high school and college, concludes that the ratio is lower for comics published in the '60s and early '70s, but then Marvel Time slows down in later years. We probably have a situation in which the ratio rises and falls from year to year. When a cumulative sum of short-term temporal references in the comics themselves are added up, unfortunately you end up with a number of years that is more that Marvel would care to admit. I estimate about 22 years since FF 1, but that's an unpopular interpretation.  
<<<

Thanks!  

Right, I figured comparative progression wouldn't be entirely rigidly proportionate. This is basically just a preliminary framework to place things until I can go through and find things that don't quite fit (such as Peter Parker's schooling or Frank Castle's Vietnam service, which Marvel maintains despite sliding time) and cut-and-paste as needed. 

Basically what I'm doing is an abridged timeline for a freebie revamp of the old TSR RPG, which is currently out of print and now fair-use.
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, Chris, I'm getting into "Chat" territory here, but, going by your location, I wonder if you know our very own Kevin Wasser...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:51 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Whoa, small world!  Can't say the name rings a bell, but always good to see a fellow Marvel comics fan here in my local neck of the woods. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:49 pm    
By Sijo

Hey people! 

Wow, I'm glad I found this thread! As I noted when I joined this board, I'm a fanfiction writer who is obsessed with writing stories set on a COMBINED Marvel/DC Universe. The trick being that I want all the facts in it to be as close as they are in their respective universes, except where they obviously conflict. That sounds easy enough to do: just find a timeline for DC and one for Marvel, merge them, then figure out the details... Except that despite months of googling, I haven't found a specific timeline for the Marvel U. the way I have for DC's (The Unauthorized Chronology, by Chris Miller.) I'm surprised by this, given how Marvel's continuity has ALWAYS been clearer than DC's. Sure, there is Robert Wicks' Unofficial Chronology, but it doesn't cover the "sliding present" mentioned here, or the future(s), or the revelations/retcons since its publication. I am in the process of completing it myself. So, I'd definitely like any help you MCP people can offer me. Mr. Bourcier's Calendar already helps with the more 'recent' events, and I'm currently writing down the whos and whens of the Marvel Silver Age. Anybody know any threads (or sites) that help with that part? 

BTW, how convenient is it that BOTH the Sliding Timelines of Marvel and DC are (according to Bourcier's and Miller's calculations) 22 years long each?  That helps a lot with intercalating events! By my calculations, this means that the Fantastic Four would STILL be the first heroes of the Modern Age, though Superman pops up soon after (and is still very influential!)  

Umm, what about The Sentry? Err... Man, is that concept a headache. Maybe I'll have him sweeped off time along with Triumph.  (Actually, I'm waiting to see what they do with him in New Avengers before I decide).

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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:21 am  
By jephyork
Director

Why is the Sentry a headache? Seems pretty straightforward to me. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:00 am    
By Sijo

Jephyork: The Sentry's history as a Major Hero who influenced the others at the start of the Modern Age contradicts and steals the thunder from the other founding heroes'. Not to mention the story just doesn't make sense. Why is The Void connected to The Sentry- or more correctly, to people's knowledge of him? How can you use a machine to make people forget him- what about physical evidence? How come events that affected the Marvel Universe globally didn't affect him, the machine, or the Void? 

The idea of a "Forgotten Hero" was an interesting concept, I'll admit that. But it could've been handled better, in my opinion. Heck, even Triumph's story (who if I remember right, came first) made more sense (but not by much.) 

I'm halfway tempted to just assume that The Sentry miniseries never happened in the Main Marvel Continuity, since it was a Marvel Knights title, anyway. For all we know, the Sentry in New Avengers is NOT the same one, but rather the Main Timeline's version of him. We'll find out soon, I guess.

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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:28 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Personally, I didn't like the original Sentry series, because it read like fan fiction, and bad fan fiction, at that. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You know, the old "it happened in Marvel Knights so it might not be canon" line is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves. 

Marvel Knights = Marvel , folks. 

How, exactly, did the Sentry's existence "contradict" anything we'd seen before -- or "steal anyone's thunder"? 

Just treat it like every other retcon or continuity implant, and you'll be fine. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:13 pm    
By U-Man

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
[D]espite months of googling, I haven't found a specific timeline for the Marvel U. the way I have for DC's (The Unauthorized Chronology, by Chris Miller.) I'm surprised by this, given how Marvel's continuity has ALWAYS been clearer than DC's. Sure, there is Robert Wicks' Unofficial Chronology, but it doesn't cover the "sliding present" mentioned here, or the future(s), or the revelations/retcons since its publication. 
<<<

It's simple. To build a DC chronology, you only have to deal with books published since Crisis on Infinite Earths. With Marvel, you have to deal with 25 more years' worth of books, and even as far back as Timely's original Marvel Comics #1. That's a considerable amount more of research, at least if you want to be comprehensive. (Miller, of course, has decided to research all the way back to the Golden Age anyway, but the point still stands: every obscure Marvel book from FF #1 forward is still at least nominally canon. DC's canon books only start with Crisis. And there's a related difference: Crisis gave DC the opportunity to properly and semi-plausibly modify origins and early stories that no longer made sense, but books that have Silver Age Marvel characters in WWII are still on the books.) Not to mention, DC has actually tried its own hand at chronology-building, putting out their own timeline at the end of their 1994 Zero Hour series. Marvel has done nothing of the sort, not even in indexes. I think Wicks says something about why he doesn't do post-FF #1 on his site, too. (This may be related to why House of M is occuring and also why people think big changes will come out of it. It may also be behind the Ultimate universe and Marvel Age.)

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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:17 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
You know, the old "it happened in Marvel Knights so it might not be canon" line is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves. 
<<<

Yeah, I agree. The Marvel Knights line was created (originally) to signal two things: first, a slightly more adult tone than Marvel comics generally had at the time, and second, the fact that the editorial work had been outsourced to Joe Quesada's Event Comics. It was never supposed to indicate that any of the stories were out of continuity. While it's true that continuity with some of the MK books, notably Bruce Jones' HULK, is alarmingly loose, you could have said the same thing about vast swathes of the mainstream Marvel Universe at the time. It just reflects the attitudes of Marvel towards continuity generally. The HANDBOOK has consistently treated all Marvel Knights stories as canon, and quite right too.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:58 am    
By Chris McCarver

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Okay, Chris, I'm getting into "Chat" territory here, but, going by your location, I wonder if you know our very own Kevin Wasser... 
<<<

Can't say as we've met, no, but I did notice he was from the land of Brad Pitt and Cashew Chicken as well. 

Hi! 
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:16 am    
By Somebody

U-Man wrote: 
>>>
Sijo wrote: 
>>>
[D]espite months of googling, I haven't found a specific timeline for the Marvel U. the way I have for DC's (The Unauthorized Chronology, by Chris Miller.) I'm surprised by this, given how Marvel's continuity has ALWAYS been clearer than DC's. Sure, there is Robert Wicks' Unofficial Chronology, but it doesn't cover the "sliding present" mentioned here, or the future(s), or the revelations/retcons since its publication. 
<<<

It's simple. To build a DC chronology, you only have to deal with books published since Crisis on Infinite Earths. With Marvel, you have to deal with 25 more years' worth of books, and even as far back as Timely's original Marvel Comics #1. That's a considerable amount more of research, at least if you want to be comprehensive. (Miller, of course, has decided to research all the way back to the Golden Age anyway, but the point still stands: every obscure Marvel book from FF #1 forward is still at least nominally canon. DC's canon books only start with Crisis. And there's a related difference: Crisis gave DC the opportunity to properly and semi-plausibly modify origins and early stories that no longer made sense, but books that have Silver Age Marvel characters in WWII are still on the books.) Not to mention, DC has actually tried its own hand at chronology-building, putting out their own timeline at the end of their 1994 Zero Hour series. Marvel has done nothing of the sort, not even in indexes. I think Wicks says something about why he doesn't do post-FF #1 on his site, too. (This may be related to why House of M is occuring and also why people think big changes will come out of it. It may also be behind the Ultimate universe and Marvel Age.) 
<<<

Not true - while not ALL pre-Crisis DC books are in-continuity, a hefty proportion still are.

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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:43 pm    
By Selaboc

U-Man wrote: 
>>>
It's simple. To build a DC chronology, you only have to deal with books published since Crisis on Infinite Earths. With Marvel, you have to deal with 25 more years' worth of books, and even as far back as Timely's original Marvel Comics #1. That's a considerable amount more of research, at least if you want to be comprehensive. 
<<<

Actually, it's not that simple. DC continuity is a muddle. Some pre-Crisis stories clearly do not take place in current continuity but others do but not necesarily exactly as written (for example, I seem to recall a Sugergirl story with the Doom Patrol that was said to still took place, only with Power Girl substituting for Supergirl. Of course, with Byrnes version of the Doom Patrol even the "altered" view of that story is no longer in continuity). Most of the JSA characters stories from the 1930's/40's are still considered in continuity (except where they clearly can't be - which requires a bit more diligence to research I should think)

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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:33 pm    
By stavesacre79

Okay, I know this is a little off topic from the discussion of the DC universe, but I just read Spider-Man Breakout #2 and saw something that caught my attention. On Page 27 panel 4 we see that Backus Rozalyn's D.O.B. is 05/19/'68. Now, I'm ASSUMING that this means she was born on May 19th, 1968. Though I noticed that there aren't birthdays in the current Handbooks. What is Marvel's policy on birthdays? Do they not mention them as to avoid complications with sliding time? If so, are we going to chalk this one up to "artistic creativity" so that in 30 years we don't run into a problem with Backus Rozalyn being 67 years old? 

(Also, kind of a side note. When citing page numbers, is it standard to include pages with ads on them, or only the ones with story?)

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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:36 pm    
By shandrakor

I can answer the side note: only the story pages. 

As for the rest, I would consider the birthdate effectively a topical reference. She was born in 68 because she's 37. In 10 years, she probably won't be 47, and so she won't have been born in '68 anymore.

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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I generally assume that birthdates "slide" along with other date and temporal references. If, in 10 years, we determine that 4 years of Marvel time have passed, then she'll be (37+4=) 41 -- and so her birthdate will "slide" up from 1968 up to (2015-41=) 1974. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:18 pm    
By stavesacre79

Thanks for the quick response and the clarification about citing page numbers. While sliding birthdays make total sense, what about the fact that 05/19/'68 is in print? That can't really change 10 years from now.

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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

But it can be ignored as a "topical reference". Marvel set a precedent for that in the original Indexes, where they wrote off all KINDS of references -- from comments about what month it was to characters visiting the travelling King Tut Exhibit at the Met -- as "topical". Surely the characters said that it was SOME month, and visited SOME exhibit, but the exact details as seen in print are overlooked as "topical". 

I tend to just squint and read it as saying "5/19/ [37 years prior to the date the book takes place]". 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:16 am    
By SeanCurtin

Topical references like years of birth have to be discarded unless they're reconcilable with the shifting nature of Marvel Time. Captain America's birthdate is the same now as it would have been when he first debuted. 

I think we've almost hit the point where the year of death listed on Jean Grey's tombstone in UX 138 is now the year of her birth. 

-Sean

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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:14 am    
By Col_Fury

I've always assumed the same thing for any "real" people that show up in books. When Captain America was exiled by President Clinton, at the time it worked. Reading it now, it would have been Bush Jr, with the relative number of years passed, Clinton no longer makes sense. It's just the "President" that shows up. When Bush makes an appearance now, he wouldn't make sense 15 years from now either, realtively speaking. 

So when Spider-Man "teamed-up" with the original cast of Saturday Night Live in MTU, which cast would that be now I wonder?

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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:02 am    
By jephyork
Director

The other assumption, I think, is that a new president gets elected about once a year in the Marvel Universe.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:24 pm    
By Somebody

Well, considering the number of X-book presidential campaigns, it gets kind of hard to purely write them off as topical.

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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:19 pm    
By stavesacre79

These topical references are very interesting - but they do seem to work out pretty well. Do you think that's how they'll deal with the special 9/11 related issues that got published? It wasn't THE 9/11 attack, but just a time when the twin towers fell? 

It makes sense that topical references would work well for holidays, too - but just how far can you take it? If it wasn't President Clinton, but "whomever was president at the time" then does the same work with Wars? If so, couldn't it work for Vietnam or maybe even WWII?

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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:10 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Nothing of any real importance turns on the 9/11 stories, so I imagine Marvel will just ignore them.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:40 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Okay, so I've been kicking around how I would best explain this, and I came up with this chart... 

http://www.ffplaza.com/images/MarvelTime.gif
 

We have four basic elements along the Marvel continuum. First is the time prior to the end of WWII. That's basically static. Next is the Marvel chronology from FF #1 to whatever the current issue is. This has been argued to be just about everything from 7 to 23 years -- I opted to show this as 10 years, mainly for the sake of graphic simplicity. The premise remains valid, though, regardless of how much time you attribute to this period. Third is the issue that you're actually reading, not necessarily the current issue. I've indicated this with a red circle. Finally is the period of time between 1945 and FF #1 -- the amount of time this represents is flexible depending on which issue you're reading at the time. I've dubbed this "The Lost Generation" after the Marvel series that details what happened during this nebulous amount of time. 

Now, in Figure 1, this is how you would chronally interpret the latest issue. There's a ten year period that stretches out behind the issue that covers everything since FF #1. So, the FF gain their powers in 1995 and Reed's grandfather fought in WWII. 

In Figure 2, we're looking at how the timeline works when you're actually reading FF #1. The issue itself takes place in 1961 and every other issue occurs during a ten year span that stretches in front of it. So Reed is contacted by the government about creating an army of cosmic ray powered individuals in 1971. "The Lost Generation" only lasts about 15 years and Reed himself served in WWII. 

Figure 3 shows any given back issue. That story occurs when it was published and the Marvel continuum stretches out before and after it, still covering a ten year period. The amount of time that occurs before and after a given issue depends on where that issue falls relative to the rest of the continuum. So FF #100 has about 2 years of continuity that occur prior to it, and about 8 that occur afterwards. Figure 3 shows about where FF #250 would be. When reading that issue, the FF would've gained their powers in the late 1970s and take over Latveria in late 1980s. The Lost Generation lasts a little over 30 years. 

Dunno if this actually helps explain things or not, but I'm thinking it would at least give people some kind of way to visualize how a given back issue might be read, relative to what came out last week.

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 12:01 pm    
By Dhall

The thing is, that Marvel time is an illusion. From a chronology standpoint, it doesn't matter. From a reading standpoint, it's best to figure that every story takes place in the quite topical now, whatever year it was originally published in. 

I've never understood why people get hung up on this, it's not like most fiction takes place in 'real time.' 

It makes no diference to me that Reed fought in WW II, and isn't 80, or that Spider-Man isn't 60 and still fighting crime. 
I just chalk it up to suspension of disbelief and move on.

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 02:25 pm    
By Sijo

Personally, I have no problem with the Sliding Timeline idea. Would I prefer a more realistic approach? Yes, but obviously that's not how Marvel (and DC) want it. In any case, most topical references don't matter. As mentioned above, if the President of the United States mentioned in one story can obviously no longer be the one that originally appeared, just substitute it with another in your mind. (I remember that in some old stories, they actually AVOIDED showing or naming The President or other celebrities, or substituted false ones, perhaps in order to avoid topicality. Or maybe so they weren't sued. :P Cut the creators some slack. 

Of course, there are certain events that cannot be so easily ignored, like 9/11 or the End of the Millenium. But ANYTHING in a story can be figured out or corrected, by the fans and/or the writers. Sometimes the answers -such as reboots- aren't satisfactory to all parts involved, but again: you gotta cut some slack. 

To get back to the Silver Age-Modern Age Marvel Chronology: Right now, for purposes of my Timeline, I'm currently going with the 22-year long span, with two years of Marvel Comics taking place in one year of Marvel Time. So, The Modern Superhero Era starts in '82 with the FF's debut. What I REALLY need now is a list of the major events in the Marvel Universe since then. Is there any such list here, or anywhere else? Or at least ones for specific titles? At least, lists for AVENGERS, X-MEN and FANTASTIC FOUR would do, since pretty much everything important that happens in Marvel either involves these teams, or affects/is affected by them.

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 11:06 pm    
By Truebeliever

Immortal ageless heroes made a lot of sense in the pre marvel age of comics when not only the characters ages but their situations and relationships were essentially static. Neither Clark Kents career at the daily planet nor his relationship with Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen ever really evolved. They were an unchanging background to an endless number of stories that would eventually return things to the status quo. For me things screwed up when marvel decided to apply endlessly evolving soap operatic elements to their stories but retain the convention of eternally young heroes. 
I feel that refusing to allow their characters to age is an essentially cowardly act on DC and marvels part, that diminishes what came before. I dont really like the dismissal of topical references. Topical references and the manner in which characters are portrayed artistically are not easily ignored cosmetic elements. They are integral parts of the stories, whatever marvel subsequently says. All of marvels stories profoundly reflect the spirit of the times in which they were written. The Lee and Kirby Fantastic Four or the Lee and Ditko spiderman stories 1960s trappings are part of what makes them appealing. Take away those elements and they are NOT the same adventures.

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Posted: 30 Jun 2005 07:37 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Appealing perhaps to those of us who were growing up in the 60's, and read those stories when they were originally published. I'd wager not many other people find those trappings part of the appeal. Marvel writes today, for today's readers; and that's what they've always done, even in the 60's...the appealing years. 

Help me follow what you're saying here. Are you saying that Marvel should admit *today* that the stories published in the 60's actually took place in the 60's? Are you saying the characters should be allowed to age, more or less naturally, so that Peter and Mary Jane would be in their mid-fifties today, and Gabe Jones in his eighties, and May Parker steaming towards the century mark? Or are you saying that, while the 60's stories took place in the 60's, the stories we're reading now should actually take place in the 70's or 80's? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 30 Jun 2005 12:19 pm    
By meta

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
To get back to the Silver Age-Modern Age Marvel Chronology: Right now, for purposes of my Timeline, I'm currently going with the 22-year long span, with two years of Marvel Comics taking place in one year of Marvel Time.  
<<<

Of course the big problem with that is Franklin Richards. He was born pretty much two years Marvel Time after the formation of the team, so if we follow the 22 year span he should technically be 20 years old now. 

But then all we need to do is look at Jubilee to know that Marvel is never continuous with the ages of their children. 

Another problem is the 10 year anniversary parade held by the Avengers near the start of it's third series.

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Posted: 30 Jun 2005 10:08 pm    
By Sijo

Yes, I'm aware of the Franklin problem; his peers in Power Pack are now in their late teens, so he should be too (didn't know about the Avengers parade, tho- thanks for that.) Note I'm going by Bourcier's and Miller's calculations, as these gentlemen know more about the DC and Marvel history than I do. 

However, I've been thinking of an alternate measure: that events in Marvel time actually happened at a rate of 1 week per month of publication. After all, the vast majority of the time, when a Marvel character refers to events from the previous month's adventure, they usually say they happened "a few days ago." (I know of course, that there are events, like multiple-issue battles, that obvioulsly happened very shortly after each other, as well as events stated to be much longer (like Daredevil's missing year). These events would have to be relocated.) In general, however, I think this is a good yardstick for Marvel Time. 

Following this formula, the 44 years of Modern Heroic Era (since Fantastic Four #1) would fit into barely more than ten years! Of course, topical events that can't be ignored probably make that period longer. (If anybody has a list of those, I'd love to see it!) 

One note about Franklin, tho: the whole Psi Lord incident, that had him change ages via time travel, could be responsible for his being younger than he should be.

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Posted: 01 Jul 2005 03:35 pm    
By meta

I've often gone by the 1 week = 1 month idea. Seems to fit the best. Although it takes a little more working out. 

And that's a very good point about Franklin. When he was de-aged he was returned at the same age that he left. Which means cutting out at least several months. I can't remember exactly how many issues he was hanging around as Psilord for. Something to try and dig out I guess.

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Posted: 01 Jul 2005 09:23 pm    
By Shmi

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
Yes, I'm aware of the Franklin problem; his peers in Power Pack are now in their late teens, so he should be too. 
<<<

When is the last time we saw Katie Power? She's the closest to Franklin in age. I thought there was only a year or two between her and Franklin.

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 11:48 pm    
By Chris McCarver

Last time I remember seeing her was in the first issue of the second New Warriors series. Looked about midway through grade school.
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: 03 Jul 2005 01:44 am    
By meta

But Julie appears to have aged a little since then, for her Runaways appearances. But then it'd just be conjecture to try and work out Julies age differences between then and now, and then add that to both katie and Franklin. 


Of course we know that Franklin had his 8th birthday just over a year ago in Marvel Knights Four.

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Posted: 07 Jul 2005 11:52 pm    
By U-Man

I think DC making Lex Luthor the president for a while may hint at a radical new way of looking at this issue for the Big Two for the future. (Granted, he wasn't much different than the real world equivalent, if not better... for example, Luthor actually got caught for his shenanigans!) Simply disconnect from the real world. Have your own, internally consistent chronology that doesn't need to be tied down to real world events, or even culture. (I said events and culture, not dates.) This has the added benefit of providing story ideas. 

You CAN structure heroes getting older across a fairly long span, keeping heroes youthful and alive for a LONG time. I think it's possible to work from the mindset of 4 issues=1 month of comic time (and possibly as many as 8 issues=1 month)! You just have to make sure it's structured well, and consistently, and don't include idiotic time-jumps that accelerate the timeline faster than it probably should.

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 06:15 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sijo said: 
>>>
Right now, for purposes of my Timeline, I'm currently going with the 22-year long span, with two years of Marvel Comics taking place in one year of Marvel Time. So, The Modern Superhero Era starts in '82 with the FF's debut.  
<<<


Russ said: 
>>>
Are you saying that Marvel should admit *today* that the stories published in the 60's actually took place in the 60's?  
<<<


Actually, Russ, there is such an admission (of sorts) in a comic that just came out recently. See below. 

But first, I suppose I should note it's only fitting that my return to the forum after a two-week vacation is in this thread. (Glad to be back, BTW, but now I've got a three-week backlog of current comics, not to mention new issue analyses submitted by others -- thanks, guys  -- to catch up on. Sigh. That calendar update is just getting pushed back more and more...) 

Anyway, Marvel itself is inconsistent about that sliding timeline approach. Look no further than this month's FF 528. Reed says, "I've been involved in space almost since there was a space program." This statement would make sense if FF 1 occurred in 1961 or thereabouts*, but the sliding timeline model places FF 1 anywhere from 1982 to 1992, depending on your interpretation of how much time has passed since FF 1. Does it make sense to base an interpretation of Marvel time on Marvel's intentions when the company itself has no consistent approach to the passage of time and the applicability of temporal references? 

*Of course, I suppose someone could say that Reed was "involved in space" for 20-30 years before FF 1. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 07:52 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You edited out the punchline when you quoted me. The meat of the question is, when do today's stories take place? Your theory is that today's stories take place in 1983-85, and while one can find aberrations in Marvel editorial to support that, it also requires rejecting hundreds, perhaps thousands, of examples that show that 1993's comics take place in 1993, and 2005's comics take place in 2005. 

To answer your question, no, it doesn't make sense. But that's entirely consistent, since "Marvel Time" doesn't make sense. 

And by the way, regarding the FF 528 evidence above, is it really "Marvel's approach"? Does anyone know to what extent Marvel is allowed to edit JMS's work on Fantastic Four? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 04:02 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
But first, I suppose I should note it's only fitting that my return to the forum after a two-week vacation is in this thread. (Glad to be back, BTW, but now I've got a three-week backlog of current comics, not to mention new issue analyses submitted by others -- thanks, guys -- to catch up on. Sigh. That calendar update is just getting pushed back more and more...)  
<<<

I was just wondering where you disappeared off to...  

All of those issue analysis reviews started coming in at once, and I was thinking, "Is Paul so overwhelmed, he isn't posting?" 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 11 Jul 2005 01:16 am    
By metaldragon

Speaking of inconsistant ages... In X-Factor #3 Artie Maddicks' father says his mutation kicked in when he turned 11 but it seems to have regressed his mind and body to about age 6 or something the way he is written later! 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 11

Posted: 11 Jul 2005 06:30 pm    Post subject: Recent Spider-man Chronology
By ajbrown

Hi, 

Does anybody have a recent Spider-man chronology that I could see? The Spider-man Chronology Page only goes up to Pulse issue 2, and that was a while ago now. Recent stories such as Sins Past, Skin Deep and the Marvel Knights arc have confused me and I was hoping that someone here might be able to provide me with a complete chronology of the last few years. 

Thank you very very much!
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 11 Jul 2005 09:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have one that I've been preparing as part of the updated calendar. I'm still playing catch-up with recent issue analyses, so I don't have time now to pluck out all the Spidey issues from the calendar and list them in chronological order, but if no one else has one to offer sooner, please be patient and I'll get that calendar update out...this summer...really. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 12

Posted: 10 Jul 2005 12:14 pm    Post subject: Solarman; canon?
By Enda80

I found Solarman on the cheap recently. It does have Doctor Doom in issue#2. Should it be considered canon? 

I bought Solarman#2. It has robots resembling the 
Servoguards. 

(Solarman#2) Solarman as Ben Tucker drove up to Doctor 
Doom's Beverly Hills Mansion to ostensibly interview 
Doctor Doom for his school paper. The Servobots 
stopped him. (They were colored blue.) Tucker was 
thrown in the "guest room" by a Servobot. Solarman 
battled more of Doctor Doom's Servobots before he had 
to leave due to the encroachment of night. 

Some readers may feel glad that Solarman only lasted 
two issues.

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Posted: 10 Jul 2005 09:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've always thought Solarman was canonical.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Jul 2005 11:04 pm    
By JLH

Who'd win a fight? Solarman, or Solar, Man of the Atom?  

Fun fact. Solarman's two issues were published like a year or two apart. Issue 1 had an animated video tie-in sold through some comic ads. Needless to say, when THAT failed, Stan should've given up on his "make up new characters for other media" aspirations. But, alas...

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Thread 13

Posted: 08 Jun 2005 08:26 am    Post subject: Satan; Marduk Kurios as opposed to Mephisto
By Enda80

The issue of when Mephisto poses as Satan came up, and I identified a few rather definite and one rather uncertain case. 

1. The Ghost Rider stories later on established that Mephisto posed as Satan in his Ghost Rider appearances, since Johnny Blaze made his deal with Mephisto. 

2. Mephisto posed as Satan in Tomb of Dracula. This has to occur as readers saw Topaz with Dracula in Hell, and when Topaz returned in the 1980's published Doctor Strange stories, she resided in Mephisto's Hell. 

3. Mephisto posed as Satan in Astonishing Tales#8, the story of Cynthia Von Doom's death, per the Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom GN. 

I remain uncertain about the Doctor Stranger II#15-16 story. Does anyone know if the Satan in that issue resembles the Satan in Tomb of Dracula, who as noted has to represent Mephisto? 

Also a problem; the appearance of Satan in Ghost Rider#1-2 and Marvel Spotlight#12. Both Ghost Rider and Hellstorm think the Satan they had dealt with earlier on their own, but that creates problems when once considers that Ghost Rider dealt with Mephisto and Hellstorm with Marduk Kurios. 

SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" 
................ 
M/SPT 7 
M/SPT 8 
M/SPT 9 
M/SPT 11 
GR2 1 
GR2 2 
M/SPT 12 
M/SPT 13 
GR2 5* goes to Mephisto 
M/SPT 15 
GR2 8* goes to Mephisto 
GR2 9* goest to Mephisto 
DRSTR2 15* goes to Mephisto? 
DRSTR2 16* goest to Mephisto? I am not sure about this. Was the Satan in these issues drawn similar to his Tomb of Dracula appearances (which goes to Mephisto) 
SSM&CB 238/2 
SOS 1 
GR2 19* goes to Mephisto 
SOS 3 
SOS 8 
GR2 32* goes to Mephisto 

..............................

Last edited by Enda80 on 08 Jul 2005 08:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 01:35 am    
By Enda80

Defenders#111 has Marduk Kurios saying that the Satan 
in DS II#16 was a "personal devil that each human 
drags behind him like a second shadow". 

Nicolas Eblis presents an odd case.

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 12:25 pm    
By Sijo

Umm, I'm inclined NOT to accept the opinion of any demon on any subject. Are there any other evidences of "Satan" being this or that demon in any story, other than their own word? 

Also, what about "Satanas's father" from the WITCHES series? Was that Kurios? How did he return, since he was killed in Hellstorm? (Thought they did say he could've incarnated as a baby.) 

BTW, I understand the last Hellcat series contradicts the Marduk Kurios setup from the Hellstorm series, making "Satan" out to be Satannish- and the son of Dormammu! (not that I mind, I hated the Hellstorm series and would prefer it not to be canon at all.) Any evidence? 

Note that a being claiming to be Marduk (the god) appeared in ELEKTRA, that would contradict the MK theory as well.

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 06:47 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
Umm, I'm inclined NOT to accept the opinion of any demon on any subject. Are there any other evidences of "Satan" being this or that demon in any story, other than their own word? 
<<<

We should only be ignoring the statements of a character if they're not compatible with established continuity. If a demon says "that wasn't Satan in that story, that was Mephisto" and there's no in-story evidence tying that appearance to any other Satan, why shouldn't the readers accept the story as written? 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, what about "Satanas's father" from the WITCHES series? Was that Kurios? How did he return, since he was killed in Hellstorm? (Thought they did say he could've incarnated as a baby.) 
<<<

Asnwerd your own question there (and why wouldn't it be Kurios?). Pretty much every demon ever has been shown as being able to shapeshift (for example, from infant form to adult). 


Quote: 
>>>
BTW, I understand the last Hellcat series contradicts the Marduk Kurios setup from the Hellstorm series, making "Satan" out to be Satannish- and the son of Dormammu! 
<<<

Marvel's later reference works (for example, the MK Encyclopedia) wrote that one off as "everyone tries to confuse Hellcat by blatantly lying". 


Quote: 
>>>
Note that a being claiming to be Marduk (the god) appeared in ELEKTRA, that would contradict the MK theory as well. 
<<<

There was also a Marduk in CITIZEN V: THE EVERLASTING. Marduk Kurios isn't the only demon to name himself after a figure from real-world mythology or religion. 

-Sean

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 08:06 pm    
By Enda80

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
Note that a being claiming to be Marduk (the god) appeared in ELEKTRA, that would contradict the MK theory as well. 
<<<

Which issue of Elektra? 

The cases I point out above generally are butressed by various other tidbits and the Official Handbooks.

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 11:10 pm    
By Sijo

Quote: 
If a demon says "that wasn't Satan in that story, that was Mephisto" and there's no in-story evidence tying that appearance to any other Satan, why shouldn't the readers accept the story as written?  

Because they ARE demons? I mean, isn't that like having a character show up and say, "I'm the greatest liar of all time! By the way, I'm also your father." Again: I'd rather see other evidence, like a comfirmation by Dr. Strange, or by the Official Handbooks. 
Quote: 
(and why wouldn't it be Kurios?). Pretty much every demon ever has been shown as being able to shapeshift (for example, from infant form to adult).  

It's not that it could not be Kurios, it's that -again- I wonder why no clear evidence was shown. Besides, if Kurios is back, wouldn't that affect Hellstorm's power (and therefore, he would've shown up in the story as well?) Unless the writer ignored/ didn't know about Hellstorm. 
Quote: 
Marvel's later reference works (for example, the MK Encyclopedia) wrote that one off as "everyone tries to confuse Hellcat by blatantly lying". 

Ok, I'll accept that one (even if it's clearly a retcon, just as the Satan-Mephisto thing was.) 
Quote: 
There was also a Marduk in CITIZEN V: THE EVERLASTING. Marduk Kurios isn't the only demon to name himself after a figure from real-world mythology or religion. 
 

Oh, sorry, THAT was the Marduk I was thinking of (the immortal on Elektra was some other deity.) BTW, Kurios wasn't taking a god's name, he WAS supposed to truly be the mesopotanian god, devolved into a demon, proven by the fact that Marduk was his True Name (for magical purposes.) I suspect that does NOT fit stablished Marvel mythology- another sign that the Hellstorm series isn't canon. 

Or maybe what we have here is poor writer research. 

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Posted: 09 Jul 2005 06:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
We should only be ignoring the statements of a character if they're not compatible with established continuity. If a demon says "that wasn't Satan in that story, that was Mephisto" and there's no in-story evidence tying that appearance to any other Satan, why shouldn't the readers accept the story as written? 
<<<

Because you can't simply assume that everything the characters say is true. To use the legal jargon, you've got to consider credibility and reliability. Is this character even trying to tell the truth? If so, how can we be sure that they aren't mistaken? Where are they getting their information from? 

Obviously, there are some stories where the character is openly being used to explain away a previous story, in which case their account probably deserves a bit more weight. But we can't just work on the assumption that all characters always tell the truth.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Jul 2005 05:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
But we can't just work on the assumption that all characters always tell the truth. 
<<<

No, definitely not, but if there's no in-story reason to assume that the character is lying, then we shouldn't rule out the possibility that they're telling the truth. 

-Sean

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Posted: 10 Jul 2005 06:09 pm
By Enda80

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
Quote:
>>>
If a demon says "that wasn't Satan in that story, that was Mephisto" and there's no in-story evidence tying that appearance to any other Satan, why shouldn't the readers accept the story as written?  
<<<
Because they ARE demons? I mean, isn't that like having a character show up and say, "I'm the greatest liar of all time! By the way, I'm also your father." Again: I'd rather see other evidence, like a comfirmation by Dr. Strange, or by the Official Handbooks. 
Quote: 
(and why wouldn't it be Kurios?). Pretty much every demon ever has been shown as being able to shapeshift (for example, from infant form to adult).  

It's not that it could not be Kurios, it's that -again- I wonder why no clear evidence was shown. Besides, if Kurios is back, wouldn't that affect Hellstorm's power (and therefore, he would've shown up in the story as well?) Unless the writer ignored/ didn't know about Hellstorm. 


Quote: 
>>>
Marvel's later reference works (for example, the MK Encyclopedia) wrote that one off as "everyone tries to confuse Hellcat by blatantly lying". 
<<<

Ok, I'll accept that one (even if it's clearly a retcon, just as the Satan-Mephisto thing was.) 


Quote: 
>>>
There was also a Marduk in CITIZEN V: THE EVERLASTING. Marduk Kurios isn't the only demon to name himself after a figure from real-world mythology or religion. 
<<< 

Oh, sorry, THAT was the Marduk I was thinking of (the immortal on Elektra was some other deity.) BTW, Kurios wasn't taking a god's name, he WAS supposed to truly be the mesopotanian god, devolved into a demon, proven by the fact that Marduk was his True Name (for magical purposes.) I suspect that does NOT fit stablished Marvel mythology- another sign that the Hellstorm series isn't canon. 

Or maybe what we have here is poor writer research. 
<<<
 

Before that Citizen V mini-series, the only references to Marduk were a few references in Doctor Strange, Conan the Barbarian, and Savage Sword of Conan, and the Hellstorm stories. So Nicieza presents the breach.

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Posted: 11 Jul 2005 11:11 pm    
By Sijo

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
But we can't just work on the assumption that all characters always tell the truth. 
<<<

No, definitely not, but if there's no in-story reason to assume that the character is lying, then we shouldn't rule out the possibility that they're telling the truth. 
<<<


Ii is indeed the standard in most comics stories that what most characters state as being true is true- but this is usually the result of poor writing. The writer just wants to state the facts but often doesn't stop to think WHY the heroes (or other characters) would believe a given statement. Most of time, it's a villain giving a "shocking" revelation, and the heroes blindly accepting it as true, instead of just as possible. This is specially disturbing in stories were the speaker is a self-proclaimed DEMON. It's something that has always bothered me. 

Good writers know that any statement they make in a story, should only be believed if said by a credible character, or backed up with other evidence. 

So yeah, most things said by demons can be assumed to be true by default, but ALWAYS taken with (many) a grain of salt. These "facts" are also the easiest to retcon ("The demon just lied") like in the Hellcat example above. 

Just-my-opinion-department: The writer of the Hellstorm series probably confused the babylonian deity Marduk with the caldean deity Shaitan, from which the word "Satan" might've been coined. Marduk had a demonic appearance but was not evil. (Note that the Marduk in Citizen V had a human appearance.)

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Thread 14

Posted: 14 Jul 2005 12:35 pm    Post subject: Original Ghost Rider #20
By Ant-Man

I'm trying to find out if there is a Phantom Rider backup story in Original Ghost Rider #20 

Does anyone have this issue? 

I know that there are Phantom Rider backups in 3-13 and 15-19, but I don't have issue #20 yet, and I haven't been able to confirm if that has a backup story or not (so I thought that I would save my money and time and not track it down if I don't have to!) 

This is the 1992 series...

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Posted: 14 Jul 2005 05:49 pm    
By Enda80

Yes, there is a back-up. This is the series that reprints early Johnny Blaze stories.

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Posted: 14 Jul 2005 07:56 pm    
By shandrakor

Yeah, but I thought the backups were new material

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jul 2005 08:08 pm    
By Ant-Man

The backups are new material. A few issues recount Phantom Rider's origin, but the rest are completely new stories.

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Thread 15

Posted: 13 Jul 2005 03:01 am    Post subject: Six Months...
By Col_Fury

We know that there's a six month gap between Avengers 503 & New Avengers 1, but where does that gap fall for the rest of the Marvel books? 

Iron Man was cancelled & rebooted, but that book is so far behind I'm just going to place it after HoM, depending on how much HoM retcons, if anything.(the new Iron Man book has yet another revamp of his origin) 

Captain America was also cancelled & rebooted, but this new book obviously takes place during this gap, so it's not much of a problem. 

FF had a Disassembled issue or two in the Waid run, but I think there's enough of a break between the end of that creative team's stories & the current Strazynski plot that we could fit six months in there somewhere. However, the newest issues have Nick Fury in them, so we may have to stretch that gap a little farther depending on exactly what happens at the end of Secret War, & how long it takes the Col. to get back in 'power.' I really can't see Marvel placing current FF before New Avengers, but who knows? 

I think we've decided that there's a pretty big gap in ASM 515 which would allow for at least six months to pass, & to fit in a whole bunch of Spider-Man stories(the remaining issues of Spec., Unlimited, etc.). The rest of the story arc started in ASM 515 run directly into New Avengers, so the gap HAS to be here. 

The newest issue of Hulk is a HoM crossover, but I don't think the previous several stories pose too much of a problem.(there was no mention I rememeber of Disassembled) 

Daredevil? I remember one issue a while ago stating that 'a year' had passed between issues. The Bendis run could have started before & ended after this whole 'Six Month' mess, but where exactly do his appearances in New Avengers go?(again, I don't remember a mention of Disasssembled) 

Punisher recently had a story with Col. Fury trying to regain control of S.H.I.E.L.D., so that has to happen after Secret War, *possibly* during New Avengers? Or maybe a little bit after the current arc... 

I don't recall any of the X-Books mentioning Disassembled, but Astonishing #1 had Col. Fury in control of S.H.I.E.L.D., & Cyclops talking about emulating the Avengers, inferring that it's pre-Secret War, & pre-Disassembled. The current books are either referring to HoM, crossing over, or leading up to New Avengers.(New X-Men, Uncanny, & Wolverine respectively, for example) Some of the X-Characters appeared in Spectacular Spider-Man's Disassembled arc, but when was this in relation to the X-Books themselves? When did the 'Six Months' start for the X-Teams? 

I know I'm skipping a slew of books, but these are the big ones that spring to mind. Any thoughts?

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Posted: 13 Jul 2005 11:44 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Uh, my first instinct is to tell you to "Wait for the next update of the Calender"  

All of the topics you bring up are stuff we've been trying to figure out in the last few months...you should find some other threads were we've discussed these things. However, the next calender update should have Paul's attempt, (with a lot of input from the rest of us) on what all of these titles look like together on a timeline...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Jul 2005 11:59 am
By Col_Fury

Cool. I was trying to streamline it together.

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Posted: 14 Jul 2005 12:57 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yeah, "streamlining it together" is pretty much what goes on here just about every day.  Sorry if I sounded discouraging, that was not my intent. It would be better for you to post a thread with your own theories on placement, (which you somewhat started to do in your first post), rather than to ask what the rest of us have come up with. 

Just what we've come up with is not all set in stone just yet, (it's still a bit early to nail anything down as far as the '6 month gap' in New Avengers goes). But you bring up a wide variety of subjects in your post above, all of which have been touched upon in different threads. Instead of us regenerating all of those old posts here, I would ask you go check out some of the more recent threads. 

Here's a small sample of recent threads dealing with items you mentioned in your post above, and all of which are found on the latest 3 pages of the Marvel Universe forum: 

"UX #460 sheds light on X-chronology" 

"Pulse #9 references" 

"Post-House of M continuity: Calender clues" 

"Reload X-chronology version 3.0" 

"ASM 515" 

"Wolverine placement" 

This is probably just a small sample of some of the discussion we've had on tying together all of the last year's worth of comic's chronologies... 

Now with that being said, once again, what we would like to hear is YOUR thoughts on placement for the issues in question. Maybe we overlooked something, or you have a different theory on placement. If you do have something to add, feel free to share, either by posting a response in one of the old threads, or if you feel it warrants a whole new thread, go ahead and start up one with your new theory on placement. 

Just so you know, here's what generally happens, (as far as the 'streamlining' process goes): 

A new comic book will come out that affects the overall placement of a number of titles, and this starts an old subject being discussed all over again, (the "Reload X-chronolgy Version 3.0" thread, for instance: I believe it gets refreshed every few weeks as new chronology tidbits come to light). Or a new comic warrants a whole new thread, discussing the implications to chronology in it's pages. Then, after the discussion starts, we usually see Jeph say, "this lines up with my theory on placement", but then Paul O'Brien comes along and says, "That's not how I saw it..." and Paul Bourcier comes along and states, "This just proves that it has been 27.5 years since Fantastic Four #1!!!"  

All of this builds up to Paul Bourcier's Calender posts, which eventually helps in finalizing placement in the actual MCP, (though the Calender and the MCP can arrive at different conclusions on placement at times). I believe Paul B. said he'd have the next calender update ready by the end of summer, which should give us enough time perhaps to sort through all of the "pre-House of M" comics... 

Anyway, hope that helps, Col. Fury, and in case no one's told you this, welcome to the message board. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 14 Jul 2005 09:03 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. said: 
>>>
I believe Paul B. said he'd have the next calender update ready by the end of summer, which should give us enough time perhaps to sort through all of the "pre-House of M" comics...  
<<<

Yup, that's my hope. A couple of months back I was going to post the update through December of Year 22, but now it's making more sense for me to go through June of Year 23, even though not everything prior to HOM will be finalized by the end of August (Secret War grumble grumble). But I figure folks might want at least some kind of stab at a comprehensive chronology for recent books by the end of summer. 

BTW, in the next week I plan to post a call for analyses of some story arcs that have recently ended so I can make the update as thorough as I can. If anyone who has volunteered still has analyses to submit, you're welcome to get the jump on my call. Not that I'm still playing catch-up with the most recent bunch of analyses, mind you. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Jul 2005 09:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

My "Wolverine/Punisher" analysis is in the polishing stage. I decided it would make more sense if I analyzed the 5-issue series as a whole, rather than just provide you with info on #2-3. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Jul 2005 09:58 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thanks for the feedback. One of these days I'll figure out how to post links to other threads.  I'm still getting the hang of things, but you didn't sound discouraging, believe me. Thanks for the welcome, by the way! 

As far as analyses, I've already taken a stab at it which seemed to go pretty well, I'd be glad to do a few more when the call comes.

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 12:10 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

My "Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill" review is probably what's up next on my agenda. I'll try and work on it some more this weekend... 

Quote: 
>>>
One of these days I'll figure out how to post links to other threads. 
<<<

There should be a "URL" (link) command up at the top on the row of commands, when you try and make a post. Just place your cursor arrow over the URL button, and it'll give you instructions on how do make a link. I find it's easier to write out the links myself, (when I click the buttons, it wants to throw HTML text at the bottom of the post, instead of where I want to insert it in the post...)
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 06:15 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
My "Wolverine/Punisher" analysis is in the polishing stage. I decided it would make more sense if I analyzed the 5-issue series as a whole, rather than just provide you with info on #2-3.  
<<<

That's fine, Jeph. As a general rule, it's better to work with entire story arcs, unless there's critical information in individual issues that might impact the placement of other titles. I assume that's not the case with W/P. 


Kevin wrote: 
>>>
My "Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill" review is probably what's up next on my agenda. I'll try and work on it some more this weekend...  
<<<

Cool, Kevin. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 16

Posted: 27 Jun 2005 09:05 pm    Post subject: UX 1-11 corrections.
By Jason Doty

After doing maticulas research on the first 11 issues of Uncanny X-Men, I've drawn up a list of mistakes with reasons for correcting. 

Aside from removing the flashback from between pages of UX 1, 
UA 3 and 4 needs to be moved to be placed between UX 5 and 6, this was the original placement from the post that argued its inclusion. 

UTSM '97 needs to be placed right after UTSM 21 because Iceman is still in his "snowman" stage and uses his 'ice' form from UX 8 on. 

Beast and Iceman's appearance in Marvels 2 between the pages of UX 11 needs to be pushed back from between pages of UX 11 to between pages of FF@ 3 because it occurs after Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch join the Avengers, which does not happen untill after UX 11. 

I don't know when the Sentry/X-Men flashbacks will be included, but there is not much of a break between them. They happen back to back between A 3 and UX 3. 

Also there is a flashback that appears prior to the scene in which the X-Men are chased by the mob in Marvels 2.

Last edited by Jason Doty on 27 Jun 2005 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 09:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The flashback occuring for Beast and Iceman needs to be pushed back from between pages of UX 11 to between pages of FF@ 3 because it occurs after Quicksilver and the Scarlrt Witch join the Avengers, which does not happen untill after UX 11. 
<<<

I don't follow you. There *is no* flashback for Beast and Iceman between pages of UX 11. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 10:11 pm    
By Jason Doty

Sorry, I'll edit it, I meant appearance in Marvels 2 between the pages of UX 11.

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 11:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I see. A 16 does indeed take place after UX 11 for Wanda and Pietro, but not for the X-Men. A 16 occurs between panels 1 and 2 of page 20 of UX 11. MARVELS 2 also occurs during this approximately ten-day gap. 


watching: degrassi tng

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 11:48 pm    
By Jason Doty

The comic reads as if there is no gap. In UX 11 pg.20 panel 1 the X-Men return from watching the Stranger take Magneto into space, talking about how good it will be to relax. The next panel reads that "before any relaxing is attempted" 

These "gaps" are really starting to hurt my head. 

If you read Marvels 2, they have FF@3 occuring as the same day as UX 14, now the scene works perfectly if the X-Men in New York are rushing to help Professor X at the wedding, that happens in the morning. 

Doing a priliminary I was going to suggest placeing FF@3 between pages of UX 14 and the scene in Marvels 2 between pages of FF@3. 

Everytime I figure out placement there is some sort of imaginary gap that seems to have been placed to accomidate some sort of time scale that no longer even works for the comics. There has to be some kind of "wiggle room" used that makes more sense, then going by a system that Marvel does not even attempted to use anymore. I think the original attempt was to incorporate some kind of time thing giving actual dates and such to events. This no longer works or is even called for. The farther we move from 1963 the more references become topical. 

In the big picture, the listings should be chronological not based on any time scale. If in a comic it says the next day, it should be the next day in the next panel, not week twelve of Peter Parker's freshman year or such that has no relavance on comic continuity, but actually has to do with how real time runs and how many weeks are in an actual school year. 

Boy, my brain hurts! 

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 07:46 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We've been through this before. Once again, you're telling us to make changes based on what you like, rather than explaining why it *can't* work. 

And once again, you're looking at the small picture, not the big one. 

The conclusion of UX 11 is a continuous narrative through UX 13, with no breaks. The Human Torch appears in UX 13, between FF 43 and FF@ 3. A 16, which features the forming of the new team with Pietro and Wanda, occurs before FF 39. So if UX 13 takes place after FF 43, it must also take place after FF 39, therefore after A 16, which means that UX 12 and the "epilog" of UX 11 must also take place after A 16. Since the main part of UX 11 clearly takes place before A 16, there *must* be a gap (probably of several days, although that's only relevant to a calendar, not to our listings; all that's relevant to our listings is that there *is* a gap) near the end of the story. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 10:03 am    
By Jason Doty

Administrator wrote 
>>>
Once again, you're telling us to make changes based on what you like, rather than explaining why it *can't* work.  
<<<

I made my post, on the evidence in front of me, and I'm using Marvels 2 as the guide. 


Quote: 
>>>
The conclusion of UX 11 is a continuous narrative through UX 13, with no breaks. 
<<<

yes. 

The scene in which Iceman and Beast are springing into action does not happen untill after Bolivar Trask's paper comes out as seen in UX 14. 

I doubt they drew them in here springing into no type of action, it seems like the wedding. There is only one break for the wedding to happen between pgs.6 and 7 of UX 14 since thanks to Marvels 2 they happen on the same day 

Moving Beast and Iceman's appearence does not effect any of the FF or Quicksilver. Quicksilver would still join the Avengers after UX 11 and then attend the wedding. The Human Torch could still help the X-Men in UX 13 and do what ever untill the wedding. There is a time break between UX 13 and 14, but becauase of Marvels 2 this area needs closer examination, for the X-Men at least adjustments must be made. 

My evidence is Bolivar Trask's paper, the same one Professor X is reading must come out first (UX 14) as shown in Marvels 2. That's why it *can't* work. 

If a gap is needed, The more logical gap would be at the end of UX 11 and between UX 12 of a couple days. Cerebro goes off, then Cerebro goes off again, as the Juggernaut gets closer. There is no specified time declared at the begining of UX 12 and the end of UX 11. 


Quote: 
>>>
once again, you're looking at the small picture, not the big one. 
<<<

But I am trying 

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 04:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Jason, I like you and I hate to say this to you, but -- I just couldn't follow your last post. Maybe it's just me, but it was almost incomprehensible. And, to be honest, a lot of your longer posts tend to read that way. 

Can you restate your argument? And for further posts, can you re-read them before you post, and check that they're understandable to someone who *doesn't have the books in front of them*? 

I think that's key. Your arguments should be so in-depth and so explained so that someone who has *never read the book* can follow them. 

-Jeph! 
oh, and PS - "meticulous". And "preliminary".

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 04:28 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Jason raises a good point, though, Russ -- what WAS your rationale for placing the "Unlimited Access" series between UX #8-9, rather than the suggested, debated, and fully workable placement of between MARVELS #2 and UX #6? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 05:01 pm    
By Jason Doty

To restate more clearly. 

I believe that UA 3 and 4 were posted incorrectly. 

In reviewing Marvels 2, there is a scene that shows Beast and Iceman springing into action in the story. It has been placed between pages of UX 11. I believe it must come between pages of FF@3 and that issue between pages of UX 14, because the scene must occur after Bolivar Trask's interview and the printing of the paper which was seen in UX 14. 

UTSM '97 must occur before UX 8, were Iceman uses his "ice" form from that point on. In this issue he is in his "snow" form. 

I hope that is clearer.

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 05:32 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, I'm going to try to restate things even MORE clearly: 

According to Marvels #2, the following sequence of events occurs, in this order: 

- a paper is published with a cover story about mutants. 
- the Beast and Iceman rush by Phil Sheldon one day in NYC. 
- the events of FF@3 and UX #14-16 occur the same day. 

Now, the paper shown is the one Prof. X reads at the start of UX #14 -- and the scene certainly reads as if he's reading a current edition. So, by that evidence, it certainly seems like the Beast/Iceman/Sheldon scene should occur between pages of UX #14. 

And that logic actually makes sense to me. 

Unfortunately, the Official Index to the X-Men vol.2 #1 places the Marvels #2 scene "between panels" of UX #11, which no doubt is why it's there in the MCP listings. 

Russ, for what it's worth I disagree with the Index, and agree with Jason, on this one. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 07:38 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote 
>>>
Once again, you're telling us to make changes based on what you like, rather than explaining why it *can't* work.  
<<<

I made my post, on the evidence in front of me, and I'm using Marvels 2 as the guide. 


Quote: 
>>>
The conclusion of UX 11 is a continuous narrative through UX 13, with no breaks. 
<<<

yes. 

The scene in which Iceman and Beast are springing into action does not happen untill after Bolivar Trask's paper comes out as seen in UX 14. 

I doubt they drew them in here springing into no type of action, it seems like the wedding. There is only one break for the wedding to happen between pgs.6 and 7 of UX 14 since thanks to Marvels 2 they happen on the same day 

Moving Beast and Iceman's appearence does not effect any of the FF or Quicksilver. Quicksilver would still join the Avengers after UX 11 and then attend the wedding. The Human Torch could still help the X-Men in UX 13 and do what ever untill the wedding. There is a time break between UX 13 and 14, but becauase of Marvels 2 this area needs closer examination, for the X-Men at least adjustments must be made. 

My evidence is Bolivar Trask's paper, the same one Professor X is reading must come out first (UX 14) as shown in Marvels 2. That's why it *can't* work. 
<<<


Read my post again. I was not addressing the placement of MARVELS 2. I was addressing your contention that there was no gap in the middle of UX 11. I was pointing out that your evidence over changing the placement of MARVELS 2--because Pietro and Wanda joined the Avengers after the end of UX 11--was faulty evidence. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 07:43 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Jason raises a good point, though, Russ -- what WAS your rationale for placing the "Unlimited Access" series between UX #8-9, rather than the suggested, debated, and fully workable placement of between MARVELS #2 and UX #6? 
<<<

I have no clue. That's why I didn't dispute it in Jason's original post. It's possible that I had it there originally, and haven't changed it, after the well-reasoned posts earlier about why it *can't* be right. But that's unlikely, since I don't have Unlimited Access. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 11:40 am    
By Jason Doty

Administrator wrote 
>>>
I was not addressing the placement of MARVELS 2. I was addressing your contention that there was no gap in the middle of UX 11. I was pointing out that your evidence over changing the placement of MARVELS 2--because Pietro and Wanda joined the Avengers after the end of UX 11--was faulty evidence. 
<<<

Yes, I understood that my original evidence was faulty, and without having the evidence in front of me that you used to dispute my claim, the comic itself read as if there was no gap in it, and yes that was my original assumption. 

To combat my faulty evidence, I then came up with something more concrete, such as the interview and paper that was put out by Trask. 

I also, apologize for unclear posts, without a word check of some sort, my spelling and grammer is pretty bad. I'll also try to be more concise so others will be able to follow. 

I would also like to point out that I'm not posting on what I like or prefer, but story "flow" is how I determine something does not seem right. In the case of ST 120, I can offer no evidence so I've left it alone.

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 12:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I'll also try to be more concise so others will be able to follow. 
<<<

Sometimes, it's just not possible to be concise. Feel free to be as verbose as you think necessary, in order to clearly communicate your point. Jeph's criteria above is usually pretty true. After writing your contention, you might try setting the books aside, clearing your mind, and re-reading the post, from the point of view of someone who doesn't have the books in front of them. 

1. Does the post "make sense," or "read right"? 
2. Does the logic flow? Does Point A really lead to a conclusion of Point B? That doesn't mean the logic has to be ironclad. There may be points you've neglected, or forgotten. That's where discussion, debate, and argument come in. It just means make sure there's a true relationship between "A" and "B", that it's possible to go from "A" to "B". 

For instance, we've had posts here before (not from you), that would say, basically, 

Quote: 
>>>
In Vegi-Tales #337, the Iron Turnip is seen entering a movie theatre. Therefore, Mattie Mae Tucker must appear in Creampuffs #7 after Red Crawler #92, not before. 
<<<

To which our only response must be:  WHAT??


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I would also like to point out that I'm not posting on what I like or prefer, but story "flow" is how I determine something does not seem right. 
<<<

That's understandable, but the problem is that sometimes, story flow must be sacrificed to the order of events in the Marvel Universe. I too am reluctant to split up stories or *shudder* re-order issues based on calendar placement, but I believe that's not the case here. The gap in UX 11* is necessitated by events in other comics, not calendar placement. And even if it were based on calendar placement, it's Marvel's Official calendar placement, and therefore stands, unless it *can't* stand. 


*Whether Marvels 11 belongs there is a valid debate, but not the *presence* of a gap. 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 01:47 pm    
By rhod

Oh man, how much do I wish there really was an Iron Turnip.....

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 07:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Be careful what you wish for... 

When I take over the editorial reigns at Marvel, there's gonna be a lot of changes... 


watching: time after time

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 11:23 pm    
By Col_Fury

If you haven't read New Avengers #7, watch out! 

Just to be safe, highlight the rest. 

If anything, it doesn't look like we'll have to worry about placement for those Sentry flashbacks. In the aforementioned issue, it seems as if all the Sentry stories were comic books published *in* the Marvel Universe, therefore they never *really* happened. We'll find out more next issue, but Paul Jenkins appears & Iron Man reveals that the Sentry's past IS NOT AS WE KNOW IT! Amazing stuff, to be sure. 

I just previewed this, and man that rocks! Thanks for the tip, Paul!

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:02 pm    Post subject: The Canonicity of Intercompany Crossovers - My 2 Cents
By jimmyflowers

I wanted to add my two cents to the debate on this issue... 

Two main points: 

1.) Consider "optional" canon. I recommend including all crossovers, but for ones that may or may not be canon, put a symbol in front or after them to indicate "optional" status. In other words, consider it canon if you want to. At least that way, people who want it to be canon will know where it fits in the order of things. 

2.) For crossovers between two companies that occur in a "shared universe," consider the possibility that a parallel version of the "other" companies' characters exist on Marvel Earth. Perhaps the Titans characters in the Titans/X-Men crossover all exist on Marvel Earth. There's no need to explain why they haven't made any more appearances. Perhaps the Marvel version of Starfire retired, died, or moved to another universe. 

It's been a long time since I read it, but perhaps Darkseid/Galactus: The Hunger would tie into this logic. You could suggest that the Darkseid in Titans/X-Men and Darkseid/Galactus was the Marvel version of Darkseid. That he somehow escaped from the Wall at the end of Titans/X-Men so that he could return in Darkseid/Galactus. 

I know there's no official Marvel comment to suggest that point #2 (I guess I'll call it "the Marvel version theory") has merit, but I think it would work nonetheless. Perhaps, you could use this rule until canon contradicts it, with official canon always taking precedent. 

For example, certain crossovers, such as Batman/Captain America and Spider-Man/Superman wouldn't work because JLA/Avengers and DC vs. Marvel are considered Marvel canon and the latter establish that the DC and Marvel Universe are separate universes. 

However, other crossovers that involve outside characters who don't appear in the Marvel vs. DC or JLA/Avengers series (such as Titans/X-Men, etc.) may fit using the "Marvel version" theory mentioned above. 

Another series that I think could be considered as optional canon using the Marvel version theory would be the Wildcats X-Men series. Perhaps all of the Wildcats seen in this series are merely parallel versions of the Wildstorm originals that exist on Marvel earth. This would work especially well given the series' structure, jumping through time, showing that the characters existed "here" for over a long period. From what I remember of all of the crossovers with Wildstorm, I think most of them are "shared universe." 

Since these are parallel versions and not originals, only their appearances in the MU would need to be listed on the MCP. 

Just a thought. 

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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:58 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jimmy, 
I also would like to see the crossovers added, but if we start with just the universe to universe, we have a better shot of having them added. I don't think anyone has come to concensus on how to add the non-marvel characters to the MCP, but I'm definatly against the Marvel version of DC characters idea. I'm under the assumption that the two universes just merged at differrent points in time. We do not have to explain why, It just happened. We can debate this forever, but I agree it would be nice to know when these take place also.

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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:04 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
We can debate this forever, but I agree it would be nice to know when these take place also. 


But if it's our (or Marvel's) ruling that they didn't take place, when they take place is irrelevant. 


watching: beastmaster

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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:55 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Hi ya'll. I'm a long time listener, first time caller, and wanted to add my thoughts to the discussion. 

I believe that all of the Marvel-DC crossovers in which the characters exist in one universe are canon. For whatever reason, the Marvel and DC universes have merged at different points in time. In fact, it was the responsibility of the character Access to separate the two universes when they merged. On the first page of Unlimited Access #1, Access is returning to the Marvel Universe after sorting out "the whole Spider-Man--Batman--Kingpin--Ra's Al Ghul mess." In that crossover, those four characters all existed in one merged universe. Once Access separated the universes and put everyone back where they belonged, everything got back to normal in the two universes. 

I also believe that the X-Men/Teen Titans crossover is canon for the same reason. At that time, the two universes merged into one universe, allowing the two teams to meet. After their adventure ended, Access's predecessor separated the two universes behind the scenes. 

Part of Access's powers could be the ability to erase the memories of the characters who crossed over.

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Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:50 am    
By lkseitz

I'm not sure inter-company crossovers are a good thing to add. The main problem is they're inconsistent. Some actually have characters traveling between universes while others happen in a shared universe. Some have it fairly easy to cross, while others (JLA/Avengers) say it's nearly impossible. And it seems incredibly rare that any cross-over is ever referred to again. 

In particular, for DC, do we create two versions of characters like Superman: pre- and post-Crisis? Does Zero Hour require a third version? Pre-Crisis, DC fans had the initial Marvel-DC crossovers happen on an alternate Earth: Earth-Crossover. In Marvel terms, it's just another alternate Earth (perhaps even in a different multiverse within the omniverse, who knows). That works fine for me. 


jimmyflowers wrote: 
>>>
It's been a long time since I read it, but perhaps Darkseid/Galactus: The Hunger would tie into this logic. You could suggest that the Darkseid in Titans/X-Men and Darkseid/Galactus was the Marvel version of Darkseid. That he somehow escaped from the Wall at the end of Titans/X-Men so that he could return in Darkseid/Galactus. 
<<<

IIRC, Darkseid/Galactus takes place before Galactus first came to Earth c. FF #50, so this work-around isn't necessary specifically for that, but obviously he had to escape somehow for later DCU appearances. 


jimmyflowers wrote: 
>>>
For example, certain crossovers, such as Batman/Captain America . . . wouldn't work. 
<<<

Byrne credits Batman/Captain America for directly spawning his Batman/Superman: Generations series, so that's definitely non-canon. Apparently Cap's still running around behind the scenes of Generations, DC just can't mention it.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:30 am    
By Enda80

There have been a few references here and there. Thorion appeared in Avengers Forever, while the Brothers appeared in Adventures of the X-Men#12 in a retelling of Galactus' origin. 

Some evidence indicates that Crossover Earth (or a variation of it at least) still exists in the Marvel multiverse. In What If vol.1#1, Uatu the Watcher made reference to the Superman/Spider-Man team-up. During the Avengers Forever mini-series, Thor had the oppurtunity to see other universes in the Marvel multiverse-and we saw Doctor Octopus escaping from prison with Luthor on page 9 of Avengers Forever#8. The tradepaperback to the series confirmed that this scene referred to the first Superman/Spider-Man story. 

So, although Crossover Earth may no longer exist in the DC continuum, it probably still exists in the Marvel Multiverse. It probably got saved from the Crisis there.

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Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:02 pm    
By jimmyflowers

Reading the responses, I can tell that some people want the crossovers included and others do not. I totally understand that. It's very subjective. 

However, that is precisely why I proposed the "optional" designation. That way everyone would be happy. Those that want to know where the stories fit in would be able to pinpoint it, and those who want to ignore them can easily do so.

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Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
obviously [Darkseid] had to escape [from the Wall, where he was imprisoned in X-Men/New Teen Titans] somehow for later DCU appearances. 
<<<

He did -- in Showcase '95 #12, a Sovereign Seven prequel by Claremont and Alan Davis. 

Hinting that, as far as the DCU goes at least, X-Men/New Teen Titans is canon. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:58 pm    
By Hotcharokey

I may have another possible crossover for you all to consider. 

Back in the 1980s, DC put out an intercompany crossover called the Invasion (I think). If I remember correctly, Spider-Man and Thor appeared in one of the Invasion comics. I remember a scene in which all of the DC heroes were gathered. Spider-Man and Thor were standing among the heroes. All you could see was the back of their heads, but it was pretty obvious that is was them.

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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:07 pm    
By jimmyflowers

In response to the Invasion! thing. At the same time, Uncanny X-Men did an issue that made it obvious Wolverine et al. were caught in the whole Invasion battle too. I wish I could remember which issue. It's when they were in Australia.

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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:13 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Uncanny #245. Drawn by Rob Liefeld 
In the crowd I spotted ET, Yoda, Jabba the Hutt, Boba Fett, an Alien (from the movies), ALF, a Wookie, Clark Kent, Jimmy Olsen and Perry White.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:20 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

jimmyflowers wrote: 
>>>
Reading the responses, I can tell that some people want the crossovers included and others do not. I totally understand that. It's very subjective. 

However, that is precisely why I proposed the "optional" designation. That way everyone would be happy. Those that want to know where the stories fit in would be able to pinpoint it, and those who want to ignore them can easily do so. 
<<<

I think your point on the subjectivity of this is very poignent. The canonicity of the books that are listed in the MCP is the collective opinion of Russ and the MCP Board of Directors. We have a set of criteria for determining that canonicity, and the MCP listings reflect that. 

Now if an individual wants to consider a given story canon or not, that's up to them. We can't possibly provide EVERY option. They're free, as an indiviudal to decide what "counts" to them. If they want to ignore inter-company crossover books, that's fine. If they want to include GIJoe or Transformers, that's fine. If they want to ignore everything that wasn't written by Stan Lee, that's fine. 

The MCP is a subjective listing of what we -- Russ and the MCP Board -- believe should be considered in continuity. This isn't intended to be a resource to list every comic that ever had an appearance of Spider-Man (or whomever). It's a chronological listing of every comic that the MCP believes contributes to the Marvel Comics mythology. If we don't think a story counts towards that mythos, it's not listed here. End of story.

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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:36 pm    
By Dhall

The Uncanny X-Men issue was meant to be a parody of Invasion.

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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:53 am    
By ChastMastr

I'm perfectly happy with the idea that the original crossovers take place on "Crossover Earth," which (from a DC point of view) is simply a pre-Crisis parallel Earth or a post-Crisis Elseworlds, and from a Marvel point of view is Earth-616 1/2 or whatever number designation you prefer; and that the later ones (DC/Marvel and JLA/Avengers) take place either canonically or not, in either world or not. 

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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:35 pm    
By Ocean Doot

... I thought I'd mention something about the X-crossovers you mentioned, Jimmy. 

First: 
"However, other crossovers that involve outside characters who don't appear in the Marvel vs. DC or JLA/Avengers series (such as Titans/X-Men, etc.) may fit using the "Marvel version" theory mentioned above." 

I just re-read this one ... has to take place between X-Men 167 and 168 ... or else between the panels of issue 168. It has to be post-Brood aventure, because the demolished building from the first Brood battle is mentioned explicitly. But it also has a rebuilt mansion, which puts it after 167. But for plot purposes, it also has to be before the introduction of Lockheed. 

The main continuity problem here, then, is the fact that Kitty acts as an X-Man, in spite of this being placed right smack during her New Mutants demotion. It also begs the questions: Where are the New Mutants? Where are the Starjammers? Where is Lilandra? 

I get the impression that this is the problem with lots of these crossovers. They can be placed *roughly*, but it's a very difficult fit, and so most chronologists find it easier to say, "Well, it's non-canon, so it doesn't matter." (For my part, I'm not too bothered in this case. So in my own personal re-read list, I parse X-Men/Titans as happening in between Uncanny 167 and X-Men Annual 6 -- the latter of which is also missing any mention of the New Mutants.) 

"Another series that I think could be considered as optional canon using the Marvel version theory would be the Wildcats X-Men series." 

I think the first two in this series work fine, but the third one, "The Modern Age," is completely unworkable in X-Men chronology, for one simple reason: The X-Men in that story are entirely familiar with the Hellfire Club, and yet they have Phoenix on their team. So it's entirely unworkable. Indeed, "The Silver Age" is somewhat problematic as well, albeit not as completely. I believe "Silver Age" makes mention of Professor X being "gone," and is meant as an allusion to him being dead. But he was discovered alive immediately after Warren got the costume that he's wearing in "Silver Age." Also, the tale has Cyclops and company becoming aware of The Brood far earlier in their history than they should ... 

So yeah .... thinking about it, your notion of "optional canon" doesn't seem to workable for Wildcats X-Men specifically.

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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ocean Doot wrote: 
>>>
They can be placed *roughly*, but it's a very difficult fit, and so most chronologists find it easier to say, "Well, it's non-canon, so it doesn't matter." 
<<<

It's not that we find it easier to say; it's that we find it makes sense to say. 


watching: halloween

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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:37 pm    
By Enda80

Actually, in the entry for Uncanny X-Men I#137, it was stated that this story took place in an alternate Earth. The DC Titans and Crisis Indexes called it Crossover Earth. 

It has also appeared in Avengers Forever#8 and in What If I#1.

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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:22 pm    
By Sijo

As I've mentioned, my main reason to do detailed research on Marvel Continuity is to help write Marvel/DC crossover Fanfiction. However, I most definitely do not consider ANY M/DC crossover to have ever been canon for either company. Simply put, there was never any evidence of them in the books known to be canon. 

Well, until now. The recent Antimatter Universe storyline in Justice League is a DIRECT reference to JLA vs Avengers! I'm amazed DC let Busiek get away with that (even if he never mentions the Avengers by name.) Still, they can always say it was some OTHER group of heroes that helped defeat Krona, and probably will some day. 

I'm not saying that the crossovers never happened- after all, both Universes feature infinite alternate timelines, so yeah, one might exist where they took place. But just not on the central realities.

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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:56 pm    
By metaldragon

Um... actually, WildC.A.T.S. Silver Age fits fairly neatly between issues 63 & 64 of the original X-Men series. You'll find my recent analysis of it in the "Issue Analysis" portion of the board. 

Having posted it only last week, I feel like I opened a can of worms here!  Very sorry! I think it would be a cool idea to have a way to indicate where these issues might go if they were cannon. 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:13 am    
By DonCampbell

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Um... actually, WildC.A.T.S. Silver Age fits fairly neatly between issues 63 & 64 of the original X-Men series. 
<<<

I might be wrong about this (since I only "browsed" through that LS in the store) but didn't the last issue of the WildC.A.T.S./X-Men limited series reveal that the shared universe in which the LS took place had actually been CREATED by the machinations of the Daemonites and the Brood? And didn't the heroes learn this, realize that the only way that they could defeat their enemies was to retroactively prevent the merger of their two universes, and then (with some regrets for what they were giving up) do just that? As I said, I could be wrong but I'm sure I remember that one of the last scenes in the LS is of one of the X-Men (Kitty?) back in the standard Marvel Universe with no memory of the whole adventure. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The last scene of that issue is vague as all hell, but yeah -- that's what I took from it too. The universe where the X-Men and WildC.A.T.s co-existed was wiped out -- and replaced by the standard Marvel Universe. 

Which would indicate that Kitty Pryde's appearance in that final panel is, in fact, canon.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:40 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

As long as you accept the series as offering a canonical explanation of the origins of the Marvel (and by implication WildStorm) universes. Personally, I'd be inclined not to.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:44 am    
By Somebody

I think it's more akin to the events of JLA/Avengers 3 & 4 - it's an artificial merger of two pre-existing universes that gets undone at the end, rather than a "the real universe is the Marvel/WS amalgam" scenario.

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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That's how I read it, yeah. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:06 am    
By Ocean Doot

Quote:
>>>
Um... actually, WildC.A.T.S. Silver Age fits fairly neatly between issues 63 & 64 of the original X-Men series. You'll find my recent analysis of it in the "Issue Analysis" portion of the board. 
<<<

You point out another error in that issue -- the fact that *this* is given as the moment when Sinister gets the Jean Grey DNA sample. 

During Inferno, it's said that he acquired Jean's DNA "before she joined the X-Men." 

Perhaps this declaration has since been contradicted in canon stories? I'm not too good with post-Claremont stuff. 

There's also the fact that the Beast is said in XWC Silver Age to have already taken the job at Rand or Brand or wherever he ends up in Amazing Adventures. Which I guess is possible ... though it rings oddly to me. 

Plus, isn't the continuity from X-Men 63-65 pretty tight? Would there be time in that space for Jean to have a "modeling gig"? 

I'm just devil's-advocating here. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just bringing up stuff that occurred to me when I was questioning whether this could possibly work as a canon story. 

Jason

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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:40 am    
By Somebody

I don't have it to hand, but didn't Sinister get the JeanDNA sample in Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix (which is earlier in the absolute timeline, albeit later in Jean's personal timeline)

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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:18 pm    
By metaldragon

I haven't read Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix. Wasn't that set in the 1800s or something? That's a long time for Sinister to keep a cell sample alive without using it. 

Does anyone know which title and issue of the Inferno crossover Sinister mentions that? All I could find in the issues I have (X-Factor #37-39, Uncanny X-Men #242-243) is Madelyne saying (in X-Factor #38): "Long ago I was a cell...stolen from you...by a man called Mr. Sinister..." Nothing more specific from Sinister himself in Uncanny X-Men 243 or X-Factor 39 when they fight him. He mentions how he manipulated and controlled Scott and Alex while they were in his orphanage before Professor X found them but says nothing about Jean. Is it maybe in one of the Uncanny X-Men issues of Inferno before #242 that I don't have? 

Actually, in the WildCATS/X-Men Silver Age issue Jean says to Hank: "You're taking that job at Rand, my modeling career is taking off..." In The (Uncanny) X-Men #48 Jean takes a job in New York as a fashion model and Scott gets a job as an announcer at a radio station when the X-Men break up (The X-Men #46) after "Professor X" (actually Changeling) dies in issue 42. 

Beast ends up getting a job at Brand Corporation in his run in Amazing Adventures. It could be he applied there around The X-Men #46-49 while the team split and went separate ways, and he is seriously considering taking the job in this issue. Jean could have just got the company's name wrong. I suppose when he finally arrives back in New York and the team encounter Sunfire then discover Professor X is alive, he puts that decision on hold. 

As to the timing between The X-Men #63 & 64: the last page of 63 shows them watching the Savage Land mutates return to their former, powerless selves and talking to Ka-zar. The X-Men #64 opens with Hank watching the news in Scott & Jean's apartment in New York. Warren and Bobby say they located a new mutant on their mini Cerebro unit and head out to encounter Sunfire. There is no flashback to show them leaving the Savage Land and arriving directly in New York so they had to have gotten there somehow. There is no time reference as to how long it took. It's possible they could only get a flight from the tip of South America (where the Savage Land tunnel opens up) to Madripoor, where they stayed at Warren's estate for a while before heading to New York. As it is, that's about the only place in their continuity this issue would fit. 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:24 am
By Dhall

Jean's modelling career lasted for exactly one issue, #48 
Hank did not get his job at Brand, until some time well after #66. 

So if we're depending on those references, then no it doesn't fit. 

I haven't read the crossover in question, So I can't comment further. I suppose I should read it some day.

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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:15 am    
By metaldragon

Ah, but it depends on how much time passes between 48-65 It could be Jean never actually quit her modelling career. She might have taken gigs during breaks between stories in those issues or just not had any offers since until WildCATS/X-Men. Just because it is not mentioned dosen't mean she couldn't have continued. "We don't use lack of evidence as evidence" I've been told by an administrator in another post!  

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:17 am    
By Dhall

Ok Yes, there is nothing to say that she didn't pick up an occasional job modelling between #48 and #101. I guess it's the use of the word "career" that I am objecting to. In #48, it was meant as her cover, not as a career. I would object to the idea that Jean had a whole career we didn't see, but not an occasional job. She had to pay for that apartment somehow, right? 

So yeah, she could have taken other modelling jobs, it's the inference that it was a regular thing that I do not like.

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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:49 am    
By metaldragon

Her modelling agency wouldn't know that she's in the X-Men so they would be acitively searching out gigs for her. It could be that she is surprised to suddenly have a "career" on her hands that she didn't actively persue but others did on her behalf. There is just not enough information to go on to know what she meant exactly when she said that. It seems she is only taking this gig in Australia because Scott hasn't come out and said how much he loves her yet. It was her way of forcing his hand. 

In Hank's case, maybe Rand IS a different company from Brand (he dosen't correct Jean on the name) and he didn't persue it (because he ended up battling Sunfire, discovering Professor X was alive, and fighting the Z'nox when he got back to New York). Or, if it is meant to be Brand and Jean just got the name wrong, maybe he told Brand Corp that he couldn't take the job right now but he was still interested in working for them and later got hired in his Amazing Adventures run. Again, not enough information to go on. 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:37 pm    
By Dhall

Scott told Jean how much he loved her in UX 138-FB which occurs between pages of UX 32.

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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:27 pm    
By metaldragon

Are you in or have you been in a long-term relationship? I think most guys find that their partners need to hear the 3 most important words you can say to them once in a while. Scott is such a repressed stiff that even though he might be madly in love with Jean, to actually say "I love you" out loud can be one of the hardest things for a guy to do and obviously Jean needed to hear him say it again. We see in the issue that he just can't do it and finally at the airport, just as she's leaving for her plane, he thinks it at her and she telepathicly hears it and says it back. As the plane is getting ready to take off she sits there thinking "get off the plane, get off the plane, get off the plane" to herself. 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:28 pm    
By Dhall

I'm just saying, that was "The time." (where it was important enough to be a plot point.) 

Probably won't help you with placing the issue per se, but.....

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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:28 pm    
By Ocean Doot

Quote:
>>>
Does anyone know which title and issue of the Inferno crossover Sinister mentions that? All I could find in the issues I have (X-Factor #37-39, Uncanny X-Men #242-243) is Madelyne saying (in X-Factor #38): "Long ago I was a cell...stolen from you...by a man called Mr. Sinister..." Nothing more specific from Sinister himself in Uncanny X-Men 243 or X-Factor 39 when they fight him. He mentions how he manipulated and controlled Scott and Alex while they were in his orphanage before Professor X found them but says nothing about Jean. Is it maybe in one of the Uncanny X-Men issues of Inferno before #242 that I don't have? 


Beast ends up getting a job at Brand Corporation in his run in Amazing Adventures. It could be he applied there around The X-Men #46-49 while the team split and went separate ways, and he is seriously considering taking the job in this issue. Jean could have just got the company's name wrong. I suppose when he finally arrives back in New York and the team encounter Sunfire then discover Professor X is alive, he puts that decision on hold. 

As to the timing between The X-Men #63 & 64: the last page of 63 shows them watching the Savage Land mutates return to their former, powerless selves and talking to Ka-zar. The X-Men #64 opens with Hank watching the news in Scott & Jean's apartment in New York. Warren and Bobby say they located a new mutant on their mini Cerebro unit and head out to encounter Sunfire. There is no flashback to show them leaving the Savage Land and arriving directly in New York so they had to have gotten there somehow. There is no time reference as to how long it took. 
<<<

Jay, you rock. That's really interesting. I think the reason I still am *little* hesitant on that point is because in issue 65, when the X-Men return to the mansion, Havok says "What took you so long?", and the X-Men reply that they got held up by an unexpected encounter with a mutant called Sunfire. This implied to me that nothing else happened between the Savage Land aventure in 63 and the beginning of 65. But! I can see now that there is wiggle room there. Well done! 

As for the bit about Sinister acquiring a sample from Jean before the X-Men formed ... yes, it's in an issue before 242. One issue before, to be exact! In UX 241, Sinister says that he wanted to get Jean in his orphanage, but before he could, Professor X took her away to work with her. He then says that it was his early work with Jean that helped lead to his forming the X-Men. Immediately after that, he says that while Xavier was working with Jean (i.e., before the X-Men formed), Sinister was working with "a tissue sample I had acquired." So no specifics about when he acquired the sample, but he already had it when the Prof first started working with Jean -- and it's stated specifically that this is during the work that occurred before the forming of the X-Men. 

Still problematic! And to me, it's a major enough element to render this story non-canon. 

By the way, I always liked the idea that Lobdell implies here, that Jean's modelling career did not begin and end with issue 48. It's sort of a cool idea to me, that she might have been getting a few gigs in and around X-men issues. 

Really, I wish this story *could* be canon, because there's a lot of cool stuff in it. (And I normally hate Lobdell's X-Men stories). But the Sinister stuff just gets too sticky for my liking. 

And the fact that "Modern Age" can't possibly be canon also makes the whole thing even more thorny. 

Still, your efforts here are inspiring! 

Jason

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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:41 am    
By metaldragon

Wow, thank you!  I really enjoy hunting down clues where a character's guest appearance in another title belongs in their regular continuity. Iceman has been my favorite character since I first saw the Spider-Man & His Amazing Friends cartoon back when I was a kid in the early '80s and I've tried to collect all of his issues. I have almost everything from Champions #1 up to the Age of Apocalypse interruption. Before and after that stretch it gets spotty (cost of the earlier titles and time/place/income issues at the time for the later ones). I particularily love the "Hidden Years" era of the late '60-mid '70s. The whole "treasure hunt" for the X-Men's appearances and mystery about what they were up to is great. I was very sad that Byrne's retro series designed to cover that gap got cancelled. Still, sadly, it had problems (the '80s references!) but particularily, the tight continuity between issues vs. their appearances in the Fantastic Four: The World's Greatest Comics Magazine limited series is really frustrating! lol! I'll have to do my analysis of the possible placement of those at some point... if anyone could stand it! lol! That and brace yourselves for more X-Factor stuff. Oh, and I'm a Moondragon fan too. Plus a few other characters. Like Satana... Yea, I'm a geek.  

In The X-Men #65 Havok's opening words are: "Well... finally! We expected you days ago!" Scott's reply: "We got busy in the city-- with a guy called Sunfire!" This almost sounds more like Havok's aware that they've been back in New York for a couple of days and was expecting them to come straight to the mansion when they got back, rather than that it's only been a couple of days since they left for South America chasing Sauron. Speculation: Iceman probably calling to see how Lorna was doing as soon as he got to a phone might have tipped him off! Plus, the way they act, it seems like Professor X had been back up from his basement and training Lorna and Havok's butts off the whole time the team was away!  

Thanks for the Sinister info. I'll see if I can't track down that Inferno issue. Sounds interesting. Well, Sinister is a manipulating bastard... between Inferno, the Cyclops & Phoenix mini, and this; who knows what the real truth is! Seems he had back-up samples from Colossus besides the ones Nightcrawler destroyed, maybe he grabbed extra ones from Jean at each juncture? 

Wait, didn't someone else have a theory on how Modern Era could be cannon a couple of threads back...? 

I agree about Jean's "career". She seemed to have gotten back into modelling pretty quickly post-The (Uncanny) X-Men #94 to be making enough money to afford that apartment, even with sharing the rent with Misty Knight! 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:13 pm    
By Ocean Doot

Well, man, you've convinced me: I'm going to put X-Men:Silver Age into my own personal "canon." Right between issues 63 and 64. Well-done! You're right, the implication is that Professor X has been back a long time, and thus that a significant time has passed between issues 63 and 64. Plenty of time for the WildCats crossover! 

And yeah, I suppose Sinister has demonstrated on plenty of other occasions a gift for deception. So I'll buy that also. 

Very cool! 

However, Modern Age categorically *cannot" work. In it, the X-Men are aware of the Hellfire Club, and of "Frost and Shaw." This means it must take place after X-Men 132 (when they invade the club, and meet -- for the first time -- Sebastian Shaw). However, Phoenix is alive, which places it before X-Men 137. Now, if you can find me a gap between those six issues in which a two-month long adventure can take place, I'll be really amazed! 

(To say nothing of the other niggles in "Modern Age," such as Wolverine wearing his brown costume, and Nightcrawler referring to him as "Logan." You'll recall, Logan still had his yellow and blue when Phoenix died. Issue 139 -- two issues after the death of Phoenix -- is the first Uncanny to show him in the brown costume. That's also the same issue in which Nightcrawler hears Wolverine called "Logan" and says, "Is that your name? You never told us." 

So ... can't work! 

Wiggle your way out of this one, dragon!  

Jason

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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ocean Doot said: 
>>>
You're right, the implication is that Professor X has been back a long time, and thus that a significant time has passed between issues 63 and 64. Plenty of time for the WildCats crossover!  
<<<

If this is right, then it's a revision of George Olshevsky's conclusion about the relative positioning of UX 63 and 64. In the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 1 #3, he states that UX 64 "opens a day or two after the end of the story in the previous issue."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:00 pm    
By Jason Doty

WildC.A.T.'s/X-Men: The Modern Age could continue in the Days of Future Past time line, shortly after Phoenix: The Untold Story, that is where the timeline diverges and then continues into X-Men/WildC.A.T.'s: The Dark Age.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:06 am    
By Ocean Doot

Paul Bourcier said:
>>>
Ocean Doot said: 
>>>
You're right, the implication is that Professor X has been back a long time, and thus that a significant time has passed between issues 63 and 64. Plenty of time for the WildCats crossover!
<<< 

If this is right, then it's a revision of George Olshevsky's conclusion about the relative positioning of UX 63 and 64. In the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 1 #3, he states that UX 64 "opens a day or two after the end of the story in the previous issue."[/quote] 
<<<


Well, admittedly this whole conversation is hypothetical. I can't speak for metaldragon, but I'm not trying to disprove what's "official." 

But I didn't see anything in issue 64 that explicitly states it's only a day or two after issue 63. At one point, I think Angel is at the midtown apartment in New York that all the X-Men are staying at, and Angel says, "I wish we'd just gone straight home after getting back from Ka-Zar's land." Words to that effect. That sort of implies that instead they went straight to the city apartment ... but it implies nothing about a timeframe. I don't think there's every a point where it says how long they've been in the city since returning from the Savage Land. Of course, I could've missed it. 

Y'know, George Olshevsky is quoted a heck of a lot here, and I swear, I have never once seen something of his in a comic book store. Where the heck do you find these "official guides"? 

Jason

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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:10 am    
By Ocean Doot

Jason Doty said:
>>>
WildC.A.T.'s/X-Men: The Modern Age could continue in the Days of Future Past time line, shortly after Phoenix: The Untold Story, that is where the timeline diverges and then continues into X-Men/WildC.A.T.'s: The Dark Age.
<<<

But then wouldn't Phoenix have no powers? 

-- Jason

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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:45 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ocean Doot said: 
>>>
Y'know, George Olshevsky is quoted a heck of a lot here, and I swear, I have never once seen something of his in a comic book store. Where the heck do you find these "official guides"?  
<<<

I'm sure there are any number of online comic stores that would have these in stock. Or do an eBay search for "Official Index" -- a number of Olshevsky's Marvel Indexes show up there.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:55 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
Wiggle your way out of this one, dragon! 
<<<

Uh... I don't own a copy of WildCATS/X-Men: Modern Age. No Iceman or Polaris in it! Wiggle!  

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:25 am    
By Jason Doty

Ocean Doot wrote 
>>>
But then wouldn't Phoenix have no powers?  
<<<

Little is known between Phoenix: The Untold Story and Days of Future Past, In other realities we know the Sh'iar technology failed, it is possible that it temporarily failed for a time in this reality.

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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:38 am    
By DonCampbell

Okay, I may be wrong about this but it seems that anybody who is trying to figure out how events from the WildC.A.T.S./X-Men LS fit into regular Marvel continuity is overlooking something significant. As mentioned earlier by Somebody and Jeph!, the universe in which the WildC.A.T.S. and the X-Men coexisted was an artificial merger of two pre-existing universes, similar to what happened in JLA/Avengers. As such, it's important to keep in mind that the effects of the merger were retroactive and NOT just limited to events in the Modern Age or Dark Age issues. Therefore, ALL of the history of that shared universe was POSSIBLY altered from what had happened in the original universes and any given event (such as how and when Sinister obtained Jean Grey's DNA or how long Jean's modeling career lasted) could have happened differently in the shared universe than it did in the original Marvel Universe. For that reason, NOTHING which occurs in the LS should affect the continuity of the MU since it's either, at best, a duplication of the original event or, at worst, an altered version of that event. And since there's no way to tell if an event from the LS is EXACTLY what happened in the (restored) Marvel Universe, nothing from the LS that contradicts something from a Marvel story should be considered canon. So the fact that the LS reveals that Sinister obtained a cell sample from Jean Grey under a certain set of circumstances does not neccessarily mean that an identical event took place in the Marvel Universe which existed before and after the merged universe. 

For example, suppose that the LS showed that Wolverine teamed up with a WildStorm character in a failed attempt to kill Adolf Hitler during World War II. While such a team-up definitely could NOT occur in the Marvel Universe, Wolverine COULD have made a similar assassination attempt (either on his own or teamed-up with another Marvel character). On the other hand, just because Wolverine was involved in such an operation in the merged universe is no PROOF that a similar event occurred in the Marvel Universe. The bottom line is that we readers have no way of knowing whether or not Wolverine tried to kill Hitler until such time as some future Marvel story is written which establishes whether or not he tried such an action. And since that applies to every "fact" revealed in the LS, there wouldn't seem to be much point in arguing about the canonicity of ANYthing from the LS, right? 

Don Campbell

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Thread 18

Posted: 17 Jul 2005 06:14 pm    Post subject: Ben Reilly and Spider-Man Team-Up 3
By Crazy Penguin

I was just looking at the chronology for Ben Reilly and noticed that Spider-Man Team-Up 3 isn't mentioned, but 2, 4 and 5 are. Why is this? 

Here's the issue: http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_teamup/003.html

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Posted: 17 Jul 2005 10:17 pm    
By JLH

I coulda swore he was in issue 1, as well, swinging by Peter's window in the first page. SMTU 1 is on Peter's page, but not Ben's that I saw.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jul 2005 05:40 am    
By Crazy Penguin

Spider-Man Team-Up #1 has a picture of Scarlet Spider on page 7, but only because Peter is thinking about him, not an actual appearance or flashback.

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 14 Jul 2005 10:15 pm    Post subject: Weapon X: Days of Future Now #1 [spoilers]
By jephyork
Director

Okay, this is me flipping through the book at the store again, so prepare for some disjointery. 

This issue resolves the mystery of who attacked Fantomex at the end of WX2 #25 -- we all thought it was Wolverine, but it turned out to have been E.V.A., under the influence of Weapon Plus. Fantomex comments that to keep from becoming their puppet, she destroyed herself -- and he's still grieving her loss. 

But wait a minute, you say. We saw Fantomex and E.V.A. in Mystique #20-25, and they were fine -- and we've got those issues placed after WX2 #25. Should we start going through contortions to place them beforehand? 

I say, don't bother. We know that WX:DOFN is taking place in the relative past, because Chamber appears here with his full face, still with Weapon X -- and he's currently appearing post-Weapon X, with his face blown off *again*, in Runaways vol.2. 

Plus, Wolvie looks to be in his Morrison-era X-jacket in WX:DOFN #1, whereas he appears in his ReLoad costume in the Mystique arc. 

I'd say a safer bet is to place the WX:DOFN series back before the Mystique arc (and current Runaways arc) -- and just assume that E.V.A. got better and reunited with Fantomex sometime after DOFN. (After all, in that Mystique arc Fantomex displays remarkable healing gifts -- perhaps E.V.A., as his mutation, shares them?) 

Anyway. Just thought I'd post to head off any possible hair-pulling. Good to see Weapon X back on the shelves. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 01:14 am    
By Col_Fury

First, I have to hand it to Tieri. You can tell that he's really trying to tie up loose ends. That's the main reason I liked this book before it got cancelled. 

I read the E.V.A. bit a tad differently. The "sabotage" could have happened over time. Fantomex mentions that "Much has happened since last we were all together," meaning WX2 23-25. On page 21 of WX2 25, Fantomex grabs Wolverine & they fly away in E.V.A. The epilogue on pgs. 22 & 23 show the 'sabotage,' i.e. her crashing. Wolverine's nowhere around, so Fantomex must have dropped him off somewhere, & there's no mention of how much time has passed between pgs. 21 & 22. I'm suggesting that the Mystique issues happened in this gap, so Fantomex's mention of "much happening" could have been a reference to those Mystique issues, & the epilogue from WX2 25 happened on his way back home, or wherever he was going. 

WX:DOFN pg. 11 has a recap of what everyone's been up to. Colcord's trying to get control of Weapon X back, Jackson has control(with Chamber & Sauron still with him) & laying low, while Sublime has control of the Hans army that he gained in WX2 28. Said army is shown to have been destroyed over various pages of this issue, by Colcord & his Box army. All this happens over several weeks. This has to happen after the end of WX2, because that's when Sublime got the Hans army. 

Chamber is still with Jackson's team with a full face. I don't read Runaways, but it seems that vol.1 was pre-Disassembled. Has anyone placed vol.2 yet? Did Chamber have a full face in vol.1? I suppose it's possible that by the end of WX:DOFN Chamber could have his face blown off again... which could put this before Runaways vol.2 & after the Mystique arc. 

Sauron is where the hair-pulling comes in. On pg. 12 a jailbreak is mentioned that 'leads to' Sauron joining Colcord's team & leaving Jackon's. The last time we saw Sauron in relation to Weapon X was on Jackson's team, but do we ever see Sauron imprisoned? Perhaps Jackson's team is laying low because a mission went wrong & Sauron was captured.(All behind the scenes, of course, but that's most of the recapping in this issue) This could be referring to a different jailbreak, but how many times is Sauron imprisoned & broken out? I think that this is meant to refer to the New Avengers jailbreak,(though never explicitly stated) which would unfortunately place this series after New Avengers 1-12 & HoM, which could screw up Runaways vol.2.(I'd rather that there was an imprisonment for Sauron before the Raft breakout to set this pre-New Avengers, but the reference makes it difficult. It's obvious from the tone of the book that it takes place 'some time' after the end of WX2, but how much time?) 

As far as Wolverine in the Morrison leathers, this has to take place at least after X-Men 160.(by which point he's already switched back to spandex, so him being in costume in the Mystique arc shouldn't matter) WX2 28 is just before X-Men 161, when Sabretooth joins up with the Brotherhood, & WX:DOFN is after that. Maybe he's feeling nostalgic? Or maybe he hasn't done his laundry & that's all that's clean...

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jul 2005 03:30 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Strictly speaking, while we know WX2 28 takes place before X 161, I don't see how we know that it takes place JUST before X 161. Who knows how long the Brotherhood were kept sitting around waiting for Exodus to make his move, or finish recruiting other members? 

I think it's highly unlikely that the jailbreak is intended to refer to NEW AVENGERS, because in almost all other respects Tieri seems to be trying to pick up from the point where he left off. In any event, NEW AVENGERS #6 has Maria Hill passing on thanks from "the Director of Weapon X" for recapturing Sauron. That would be Jackson, not Colcord. 

Fantomex/EVA is more of a problem, but if his appearance in MYSTIQUE can be made to fit before this point, then I don't see why we shouldn't go along with that. Is Wolverine in costume when he turns up in the closing issues of MYSTIQUE? If so, we can probably just infer that EVA got better. If not, best to go with authorial intent and shift the stories around so that EVA can be destroyed as per Tieri's dialogue. 

(Of course, Fantomex is also well established as a persistent liar. Let's not ignore the possibility that he's simply lying in WX:DOFN 1. For all we know, EVA might show up alive and well later in the series.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 12:28 pm    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
(Of course, Fantomex is also well established as a persistent liar. Let's not ignore the possibility that he's simply lying in WX:DOFN 1. For all we know, EVA might show up alive and well later in the series.) 
<<<

The other issues are meant to be taking big time-jumps.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jul 2005 04:15 pm    
By jephyork
Director

We'll see, won't we. 

And yes, Wolverine's in his ReLoad costume in the final Mystique arc. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jul 2005 05:47 pm    
By Col_Fury

Ah, good point about New Avengers #6. I would prefer this to take place further in the past, so I'm glad we've found a way to distance this from 'that' jailbreak. However because of New Avengers, we know that Colcord 'can't' re-take Weapon X, because Jackson is still in charge there. Also by the time this mini ends, Sauron *should* end up at the Raft, so he can escape in New Avengers.... I have faith in Tieri, though! It seems as though he's really trying to tie things up. As always, we'll just have to wait a few months. 

But that dang jacket Wolverine's wearing keeps throwing me! Tieri's said in several interviews that he prefers Wolverine out of spandex & that he was very happy with the leather jacket uniforms, so maybe it's just as simple as that.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jul 2005 08:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury said: 
>>>
The epilogue on pgs. 22 & 23 show the 'sabotage,' i.e. her crashing. Wolverine's nowhere around, so Fantomex must have dropped him off somewhere, & there's no mention of how much time has passed between pgs. 21 & 22. I'm suggesting that the Mystique issues happened in this gap, so Fantomex's mention of "much happening" could have been a reference to those Mystique issues, & the epilogue from WX2 25 happened on his way back home, or wherever he was going.  
<<<

Very good pont. I agree that the epilogue from WX2 25 goes after the Mystique #20-24. 

I don't think Logan's attire in WX:DOFN 1 is a big consideration, but I do have concerns about that Sauron jailbreak reference. Looks like we'll have to wait and see about that one. 

Two more factors to consider in WX:DOFN 1: 

Fantomex says to Logan and Weapon Zero, "I've killed him [Sublime] over half a dozen times in the past year alone since we last met..." That suggests that a lot of time has passed since WX2 25. 

Then again Logan says to Jono, "Ya disappeared, an' I've been lookin' for ya ever since." That implies that not much time has transpired, because if it has indeed been a year since WX2 25, then Logan sure has been busy doing things other than looking for Chamber.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Jul 2005 03:22 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
However because of New Avengers, we know that Colcord 'can't' re-take Weapon X, because Jackson is still in charge there.  
<<<

Actually, no - the dialogue simply refers to "the Director of Weapon X" but doesn't specify who that is. Obviously, in the timeframe of the WX:DOFN 1, it would be Jackson, but that merely establishes that that timeframe doesn't work. If NA 1-6 take place later on - as they evidently do - then the Director of Weapon X could be somebody entirely different.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Jul 2005 12:43 am    
By Andy Holcombe

If I remember correctly, wasn't Jackson a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent prior to joining up with Weapon X? And didn't he leave under less than ideal circumstances? So I doubt that S.H.I.E.L.D. would be overly chummy with Jackson and pass on his congratulations. I believe this is a clue that Colcord is the director mentioned in New Avengers.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jul 2005 09:37 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Perhaps, but SHIELD is under new management by the time of NEW AVENGERS.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 20

Posted: 20 Jul 2005 04:46 am    Post subject: Amazing Spider-man 8 - 2 placement
By ajbrown

Hi, 

Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but I had a question about the placement of ASM 8, story 2. The Spider-man Chronology places it after ASM 21, but I can't see any reason why. It was obviously intended to fall into place after ASM 8 story 1 and before ASM 9. I'm probably being dense but I can't see any reason for placing it so much later in Spidey's Chronology. 

If anyone can provide an explanation then thank you very much! 

AJ
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 20 Jul 2005 09:37 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

This is the order given in the Official Marvel Index. The reasoning, as I recall, is that a later story purports to have Spider-Man and the Torch meeting for the first time - something that can only be achieved by shifting this story back.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Jul 2005 11:46 am    
By Crazy Penguin

The first time I saw this mentioned was the Untold Tales of Spider-Man timeline part 2 in Untold Tales of Spider-Man #25.

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 21 Jul 2005 04:24 pm    Post subject: Albert Devoor in FF#263?
By Enda80

DEVOOR, ALBERT 
M/TIO 67 
FF 263 

Skimmed the issue and I did not see him. He did appear in Captain America I#289. However, I did not see him in FF I#263.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 07:12 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
DEVOOR, ALBERT 
M/TIO 67 
FF 263 

Skimmed the issue and I did not see him. He did appear in Captain America I#289. However, I did not see him in FF I#263. 

I think that's a typo and should be #163.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 10:04 am    
By Arthur
Director

right on for FF 163, but also 

DEVOOR, ALBERT 

FF 163-FB (11p1-11p5) approached by Arkon 
FF 162-FB (14p2-14p4) implements plan on alternate earth and 5th dimension 
FF 160 
FF 162 
FF 163 
M/TIO 67 
CA 289

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Thread 22

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:25 pm    Post subject: Dr. Doom Dilemma
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm just pointing this out, because it has the potential to turn into a real continuity glitch: 

Dr. Doom appears in GLA #3 in his new red armor, (seen during the Mark Waid run). 

However, Dr. Doom appears in Runaways #4, (and I suspect upcoming issues 5 and 6) in his classic green armor. 

I hope somebody at Marvel attempts to explain things...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:47 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Way to early to tell for sure, obviously, but the running theory I've seen on a couple of different MBs is that the Doom in Runaways is actually a Doombot.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'd say the overriding glitch at the moment is that he's supposed to be DEAD... 

By the way, he showed up in Power Pack v3 #3 as well, although that series is sort of hovering on the canonicity bubble for me right now. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:18 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, yeah, but we all knew he wasn't going to stay dead, so it's really a question of whether they're going to bother explaining it, rather than a surprise of any sort that he's back.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:07 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm just surprised that he's busy turning up in GLA, Runaways and Power Pack *before* making some kind of triumphant return in Fantastic Four itself. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:31 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

RUNAWAYS #5 confirms that, yes, it's a Doombot. Not a continuity error at all (in fact, the Runaways are even aware that he's meant to be dead).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:38 pm    
By meta

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
By the way, he showed up in Power Pack v3 #3 as well, although that series is sort of hovering on the canonicity bubble for me right now. 
<<<


Personally I'd been looking at Power Pack as having taken place a few years ago. They all seem much younger than they currently are, and of course Doom is alive and in his metalic armour.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:01 pm    
By Mr. Cosmos

SPOILER 
















Don't know if anyone's picked up GLA 4 yet, but it isn't Doom at all, as it turns out. It's Leather Boy, paying homage to Doom, and getting revenge at the GLA for not asking him to join a second time. 

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 21 Jul 2005 07:11 am    Post subject: A 13-FB ???
By Selaboc

somewhewre between A 9 and A 10 there is listed an A 13-FB for the following charaters (possibly more, but these are the ones that I noticed it on): 
Iron Man 
Giant Man 
Wasp 
Thor 

But when I look in Avengers 13 (from the 1960s) I don't see any flashbacks. Which page/panels does this flashback occur on?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jul 2005 12:43 pm    
By Arthur

The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers calls it a flashback. 

The first segment of A 13 (2p1 - 4p5) takes place weeks before the rest of the issue. The four heroes you mentioned appear in that segment. My guess is that that is what is referred to.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 06:29 am    
By Selaboc

Ok, I guess I can see that, even though that's not what I would consider a Flashback (since the story starts in the present and just move forward in time rather than starting "several weeks ago") but rather more a "gap in the story" similiar to like what occurs in places like A 16 

A 16 
TOS 66 
M/H&L '97 
A 16 

Which I guess brings me to my next comment. In places where issues are "broken up" it would be helpful if pages numbers were used (for example A 13-FB (Pg2-4pn3) and A 13 (Pg4pn4-end)) in cases like A13 it's not such a big issues as there is only one "gap" but rather when there are more complex areas (like A16) where you have listings like 

A 16 
TOS 66 
M/H&L '97 
A 16 
M/H&L '97 
A 16 
M/H&L '97 
A 16 
M/H&L '97 
A 16 
M/H&L '97 
A 16 
M/H&L '97-BTS 
A 16-BTS 
M/H&L '97 
A 16 ~ M/H&L '97 
A 16 
M/H&L '97 
A 16-BTS 
A 16 ~ M/H&L '97 
A 16 
M/H&L '97 
A 16 ~ M/H&L '97 
A 16 

(which will only get worse when EMH is added to the mix)

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 03:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Which I guess brings me to my next comment. In places where issues are "broken up" it would be helpful if pages numbers were used  
<<<

Your wish is our command, Selaboc. Folks are now working on page/panel ranges for split entries. Okay...maybe this activity started before you posted, but the MCP is aware of this need and is acting on it. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 24

Posted: 24 Jul 2005 11:53 pm    Post subject: Namor - The Sub-Mariner Annual 2
By shandrakor

This issue (and the rest of the "Return of the Defenders") is listed as occurring after Namor #25, but the editorial bubble at the start of the issue reads: 

"The events in this story take place before Namor #25"

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jul 2005 08:53 am    
By RLG

Having recently reviewed this title, I came across the same confusion. However, after reading the entire 4-part storyline, I eventually came to the conclusion that the editor's note is mistaken. Here's why..... 

In H2@18/2 (15p2-p6), Namor (in flashback) is abducted by Shanzar's demons. He is wandering aimlessly in Los Angeles at the time. This is a clear indication that Master Khan (in N 25) has already cast his spell in Namor. 

Also, in H2@ 18/2 (15p1), Dr. Strange states that Namor was in an "amnesiac state" when he was abducted. 

And finally, towards the conclusion of DRS@ 2/1 (the final "Return of the Defenders" chapter), Dr. Strange indicates that he is unable to locate Namor's whereabouts due to the previous spell (from Master Khan) that had already been cast on him. 

RLG

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Thread 25

Posted: 26 Jul 2005 11:00 pm    Post subject: Daredevil #71-75: Placement Help?
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, I just finished the latest story arc in Daredevil, and before I get around to doing a full chronology review, I'd like the opinions of anyone else who read this storyline: Just when does this story take place? 

I thought Bendis had established the events of the "one year" gap happening as follows: 

1. DD beats the Kingpin to a pulp, declares himself the New Kingpin. 

2. According to Ben Urich in DD2 #56, 57: The next "6 weeks" are spent with Matt being Daredevil most of the time, (Matt supposedly has gone into hiding). Daredevil cleans up Hell's Kitchen, tossing out every criminal that refuses to clean up their act. 

3. The next few months are spent with Matt supposedly retired from the costume, growing a goatee, and doing civic duties to improve Hell's Kitchen. At some point during this year, he marries Milla Donovan. 

4. The "one year" gap ends with the story arc in DD2 #56-60, with Matt redonning the costume to fight the Yakuza. 

But here we have DD2 #71-75, which seems to be set entirely during the one year gap. DD is noted to be the Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen. He's in costume a lot during the flashback sequences in this arc, and he's in costume at the very end when he fights the mystery villian. So does that mean this takes place in the "6 week" gap? But wait, his marriage to Milla Donovan is seen in a flashback, prior to the 'present day' main story, set in the Church basement. And that would be after the "6 week' gap, right? Also, at the end of DD2 75, Matt Murdock walks right up to the FBI van spying on him and knocks on the door before vanishing. The FBI leader inside appears to be FBI Agent Driver, who died back in the Yakuza storyline from DD2 #56-60...so this IS during the one year gap...or is that just a similar looking FBI agent? 

And hey, Holy @#%! Just noticed, in the flashback sequence showing the wedding in DD2 74, Matt is clean shaven at his wedding! Paul B., you said a while back that maybe that scene in Alias where Matt tries to get Jessica to work for Kazar happened around the time of Matt's marriage to Milla, and so maybe he shaved for his wedding, (thus, making your placement for those Alias issues work on the calender). Well, hell, it appears your theory works...  

So when is this storyline set? Opinions, please? Cause I'm at a loss...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 01:12 am    
By PopularLoser

I got the impression that the framing sequence occurs after the "one year" gap, at least after the "King of Hell's Kitchen" arc, prossibly aligned with publication order. The FBI agent in the car doesn't have to be Agent Driver. It could be like you said, just another guy that looks like Agent Driver. That's my 2 cents.
_________________
[Insert Witty Remark Here]

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Thread 26

Posted: 26 Jul 2005 08:00 pm    Post subject: Gambit/ Candra first appearance
By rhod

I'm not sure if this shoud have been posted under bugs, cos I was originally intending just to point out that Candra's listed as having XU 7 as her first app, before the first Gambit solo series, however Gambit vol1 was published before Xmen Unlimited 7, and having just read XU 7 it certainly appears to take place after GAM1. 

I went to check this against Gambits listings but found that GAM1 is not listed at all (presumably because of the gap - fair enough). 

My question though is, does the gap mean that Candra's listings are not final either? (inasmuch as anything in the MCP is 'final')

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 02:54 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

If Candra appears in any books that haven't yet been added to the Project, then, no, it's not final. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Thread 27

Posted: 26 Jul 2005 09:56 am    Post subject: Webspinners Tales of Spider-Man
By Crazy Penguin

I was looking through the Spider-Man chronology and noticed that not all of the issues of Webspinners Tales of Spider-Man were listed. 

Webspinners #1-3 is a three parter set after ASM #38 (but narrated by a modern day Peter). #1-2 are listed in the MCP, but not #3 strangely enough. The backup story to #1 is already listed in the MCP. 

Webspinners #4-6 is a three parter set shortly after Silver Surfer #18 (resolving the angry Surfer plot thread). Everything seems to be the status quo for Spider-Man - he's selling photos to Jonah, he's dating Gwen and George Stacy is still alive. Silver Surfer #18 seems to have been released the same month as ASM #88, which was part 1 of a three part story that ended in George Stacy's death in ASM #90. 

Currently the MCP lists Silver Surfer #14 (a Spidey guest appearance, which is also referenced in WTS #4-6) as taking place after ASM #92. 

Webspinners #7-9 is a three part story about Peter's high school senior prom. Sandman is the villain of the story, Betty is Peter's girlfriend, Liz still has the hots for Peter. I can't make head nor tail of when this story takes place, but Peter's graduation is in ASM #28. 

Webspinners #10-12 was a three parter set in the present day and was Paul Jenkins' first Spider-Man story. 

Webspinners #13-14 was a two parter set in the present day not long after Cletus lost his Carnage symbiote. Strangely the MCP lists Webspinners 13 but not 14. 

Webspinners #15-16 is a two parter with the Vulture. We don't really get to see Peter out of costume. No idea when this takes place. 

Webspinners #17-18 is a two parter, which according to the opening page takes place inbetween ASM #288 and #289. According to the reviewer of the story at Spiderfan.org it also takes place before Spider-Man vs Wolverine. 

So can anyone figure all of this out?

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Posted: 26 Jul 2005 11:14 pm    
By JLH

Crazy Penguin wrote: 
Webspinners #7-9 is a three part story about Peter's high school senior prom. Sandman is the villain of the story, Betty is Peter's girlfriend, Liz still has the hots for Peter. I can't make head nor tail of when this story takes place, but Peter's graduation is in ASM #28. 


I figured this to take place between panels in ASM #28, and was going to do an analysis for it, but a post I made on the subject got no replies, so I forgot about it.

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 06:48 am    
By Crazy Penguin

I'd love to hear it!

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Thread 28

Posted: 30 Jul 2005 06:29 pm    Post subject: Morgan note; gangsters question
By Enda80

PUN 2-BTS 

Actually, we saw Morgan on-panel 

Looking at the other mobsters killed in that issue: 

Bo Barrigan, Dazzler#5 
"Killer" Croesus, DD#135 
Injun Joe, DD#180 et al. 
"Josiey" Jone in DD I#148 
George "Georgie Porgy" Ovani ????

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Thread 29

Posted: 30 Jul 2005 09:04 pm    Post subject: Jubilee and Wolverine: Soultaker
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Picking up on a couple of threads in the Issue Analysis forum... 

In JUBILEE 3, Logan is shown fighting ninjas. It's been suggested that this might be a scene from the WOLVERINE: SOULTAKER mini-series. Can someone compare the two and clue us in about how likely this may be? Unless the scenes are dead-on matches in terms of setting, costuming, etc., I'm likely to treat these as non-synchronous. After all, Logan always seems to be fighting ninjas.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Jul 2005 01:50 am    
By Col_Fury

In Jubilee 3 there's a one panel scene of Wolverine fighting ninjas. The ninjas are hooded, with face masks showing their eyes . They're all colored in black, possibly shadowed. There's no backgrounds or settings, it's a pretty generic 'shot.' Everyone is shown from the shoulders up, Wolverine's wearing black. 

In Wolverine: Soultaker 1, the ninjas Wolverine's fighting are hooded, with face masks showing their eyes. They're colored in black with some red. One panel shows a ninja shadowed, all in black, another panel shows a ninja shadowed, all in black with red highlights. Wolverine's wearing black. 

The main discrepancy is Wolverine having short sleeves in Soultaker, & long sleeves in Jubilee 3. This could be chalked up to artistic interpretation on Jubilee 3's part, 'recapping' the adventure shown in detail in Soultaker. 

Hope that helps!

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Posted: 31 Jul 2005 11:01 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm inclined to assume that the JUBILEE scene is just meant to be Wolverine having a generic adventure. And ninjas are, after all, his generic opponents.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Jul 2005 12:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

This is such a tiny throwaway detail, but if we're mentioning short sleeves... 

Soultaker specifically mentions that Wolvie hates cellphones. Jubilee #3 shows him using one. Probably not the same battle, then? 

I'm inclined to just treat it as "a generic adventure" too. When does Wolvie NOT fight ninjas? 

-Jeph!

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Thread 30

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 10:16 am    Post subject: X-Men 2099 Oasis placement
By electronicLad

I realize this is a pretty dead section of the boards, and I'm not too likely to get a response.....but.. 

Has anyone given thought to where X-Men 2099 OASIS, and the stories in the X-men 2099 special take place in reference to the regular X-Men 2099 comic? 

I might try to sort it out, but wanted to check if anyone has a ready answer.

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Thread 31

Posted: 01 Jul 2005 11:14 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Wolverine: Soultaker LS
By Col_Fury

Chronology review for Wolverine: Soultaker (#1-5) 

The miniseries has Logan going to Japan to visit his adopted daughter Amiko, but he is soon distracted by ninjas 

Wolverine: Soultaker #1 
Written by Akira Yoshida 
Drawn by Shin Jason Nagasawa 

Appearances: Wolverine, Yukio, Kenichiro 

In brief: 

Day #1: Wolverine arrives in Japan to visit Amiko, meets Yukio at a restaurant. During conversation she reveals a necklace she stole. They decide to investigate its origins, so they bring it to an old friend of Logans, Kenichiro, who recognizes it as the Mark of Mana & freaks out. They are subsequently attacked by ninjas, & Kenichiro dies in the fight. Wolverine grabs the necklace & has visions of an ancient battle. 

References: 

Pg. 4: Wolverine makes a topical reference to the upcoming Girls Day, which happens to be on March 3, so this is before that. 

Pg. 7: Yukio mentions she obtained the necklace last week. I doubt this interferes with any other Yukio appearances. 

Also on pg. 7: Wolverine asks why Yukio didnt take her problem to Sunfire or Silver Samurai, so this has to happen at least shortly before the events in Rogue #7-12. 

Wolverine: Soultaker #2 
Written by Akira Yoshida 
Drawn by Shin Jason Nagasawa 

Appearances: Wolverine, Yukio, Mana Yanowa 

In brief: 

Day #2: Wolverine visits the shrine in question. That night he calls Yukio then infiltrates the shrine in costume. He finds the body of Mana Yanowa surrounded by monks. They are then attacked by more ninjas, all the monks are killed, Wolverine takes Mana & leaves. 

Day #3: Wolverine puts the necklace on Mana, she wakes up. 

Wolverine: Soultaker #3 
Written by: Akira Yoshida 
Drawn by Shin Jason Nagasawa 

Appearances: Wolverine, Mana Yanowa, Hana Yanowa, Ryuki 

In brief: 

Day #3: Picks up where #2 left off. Mana explains her past(see references), they come up with a plan to battle her sister Hana. Later that day, she blesses Wolverine & they prepare for the fight. Meanwhile Hana & the demon Ryuki raise some zombie ninjas. 

References: Pgs. #4-10: Mana gives Wolverine a history lesson about herself. Her family has protected Japan for over 800 years against demons, curses, & magic, shes the latest in the line(apparently the Japanese version of Buffy, but through bloodlines instead of random occurrence). Her twin sister Hana was jealous & therefore evil, so she teamed up with the demon Ryuki. To defeat Hana, Mana had to trap the both of them in her necklace in 1864. When Wolverine put the necklace on the body of Mana, he released them both. 

Wolverine: Soultaker #4 
Written by: Akira Yoshida 
Drawn by Shin Jason Nagasawa 

Appearances: Wolverine, Mana Yanowa, Hana Yanowa, Ryuki, Oinari 

In brief: 

Day #3: That night, Wolverine confronts Hana & her zombies while Mana talks to Oinari(apparently the good version of Ryuki) to get help. Wolverine defeats the zombie ninjas, Hana escapes. Mana gives Wolverine the Blade of Blood, a magic sword. 

Day #4: Wolverine & Mana confront Hana & Ryuki, who have the help of a few more demons. 

Wolverine: Soultaker #5 
Written by Akira Yoshida 
Drawn by Shin Jason Nagasawa 

Appearances: Wolverine, Yukio, Amiko, Mana Yanowa, Hana Yanowa, Ryuki 

In brief: 

Day #4: picks up where #4 left off. Everyone fights. Wolverine kills most of the demons, Hana reveals that she has Yukio & Amiko captive. Wolverine defeats Ryuki, Mana defeats Ana, fights over. 

Day #5: A few days later. Wolverine, Yukio, Amiko, & Mana are eating. Mana reveals that Amiko is a descendant of her, offers to train Amiko, everyones happy. THE END 

References: Pg. 24: Theyre celebrating Girls Day at that dinner, so the last page is a topical reference to March 3. 

Overall, its a pretty straightforward miniseries. There were lots of pages with no dialogue, & the plot was, well, simple. Most of the characters introduced here well probably never see again, but Akira Yoshida is writing the Kitty Pryde mini coming out now, so who knows? Im assuming that a few days means 3 days, so the whole thing lasts a week. 

Well, that's my first stab at an analysis, so how did I do?

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 12:13 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Geez, all of a sudden, all of the chronology reviews are coming out of the woodwork! Thanks for the review, Col. Fury. 

Paul's probably feeling overwhelmed by now...so how much longer till that full calender update now, Paul? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 12:22 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, one thing I notice Col. Fury: When there's more than one day in an issue, you need to list what page/panel break, so they can be marked clearly on the calender. 

For instance, you have Day #2, and part of Day #3 in Issue #2. Where does Day 2 end in the issue, and where does Day 3 begin? 

Other than that, I think this review looks pretty good. Good job. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 03:34 pm    
By Col_Fury

Issue #2, break between pgs. #18 & #19(#18 is end of Day #1, #19 in morning of Day #2) 

Issue #4, break between pgs. #18 & #19(ditto) 

Issue #5, break between pgs. #23 & #24(ditto) 

#1: 22 pgs. 
#2: 22 pgs. 
#3: 22 pgs. 
#4: 22 pgs. 
#5: 24 pgs. 

Sorry about the oversight, thanks for the feedback!

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Thread 32

Posted: 30 Jun 2005 02:26 pm    Post subject: Analysis of Tomb of Dracula LS
By DonCampbell

This is my first attempt at doing an issue analysis and Id appreciate any feedback. 

First off, Im not entirely sure how these issues should be listed in the MCP. According to the Key, the original Tomb of Dracula series is listed as TOD and the Tomb of Dracula magazine is listed as TOD2 (but there are also a number of TOD MAG entries listed  are these meant to be the same as TOD2?). However, the 1991 Tomb of Dracula Limited Series from Epic isnt mentioned in the Key nor is it listed among the non-canon books. Ive assumed that the Epic TOD should be TOD3 and have thus chosen to list this most recent series as TOD4. If Im wrong, let me know and Ill make corrections. 

Second, if Ive read the FAQ correctly, the two most recent Blade series (which were tied to the first two Blade movies) and the never-finished Blade LS are all considered to be outside of continuity by the Project, right? If so, then Blades last appearance prior to this TOD LS was in PPSM2 7-8. Also, the only listing for Blade in the Key is for the BLADE one-shot (sometimes called Blade: Crescent City Blues). What about the Blade the Vampire Hunter series which ran for 10 issues in 1994-1995? Is it also considered non-canon? 

Third, for anyone who might be interested, this Tomb of Dracula was meant to be an ongoing series with a 6-issue initial storyline but it was soon changed to a 4-issue LS. Despite this, the story reads quite well with no (obvious) changes evident. 

Fourth, since most of the LS takes place in Transylvania, Ive decided that it make more sense to use Transylvanian Time for any temporal references instead of relying solely on Eastern Standard Time. Also, since Transylvanias Time Zone is 7 hours ahead of EST, Day X arrives there before it does on the American East Coast. 

Finally, Draculas transformation supposedly involves a four-day period during which hes in chrysalis. Ive taken this to mean that Draculas time in chrysalis lasts a full four days (i.e. 96 hours). Thus, since the last two issues take place on the day of Draculas transformation while the last page of issue one shows a Dracula who is not yet in chrysalis, it seems reasonable to assume that the whole LS takes place over the course of five days. 


TOD4 1 (Tomb of Dracula #1, cover-dated December, 2004) 
Tomb of Dracula part one 
(story) Robert Rodi and Bruce Jones; (script) Robert Rodi; (pencils) Jamie Tolagson 

Appearances: Blade, Divinity Drake, doorman, Hector (destroyed), Noah Van Helsing, Benjamin Soloman Alomii, Michiyo Watanabe, Lucas Telling-Stone, Enzo Ferrara, Dracula 

Brief Synopsis: Following a woman who gives off a scent of the undead eventually leads Blade to a group of vampire-hunters who are preparing to try to prevent the impending transformation and rebirth of...Dracula. 

Mini-Bios (from dossiers read aloud by Noah): 
1) Benjamin Soloman Alomii is a M.I.T. student of techno-weaponry who began actively hunting the Adze vampires of Guyana after his infected wife devoured their children and went on a rampage that destroyed half of his native village. Benjamin cleansed those victims who remained in the village, prevented the plague from spreading outside his native province and destroyed his wife. 
2) Michiyo Watanabe is a generational samurai who is an expert with a silver blade and nitrate-tipped darts and who is the natural daughter of a Shinto priestess who was killed by the Yiki Onna, the Asian snow vampires. 
3) Lucas Telling-Stone is a Native American spiritualist, elite guide and world-class tracker whose skills as a psychic, a shape-shifter, a magician and a conjuror make him virtually a one-man occult army. Lucas is a mute who communicates by gesture or telepathy. Hes dedicated his life to hunting down the descendants of his tribes ancient adversaries, the Jumlin, creatures who are known in Native American lore as the first vampires on Earth. 
4) Enzo Ferrara is a former Jesuit priest who, after ten years as the senior archivist of the Vaticans library of forbidden books, is an authority on magic, sorcery and demonology who has an encyclopedic knowledge of every known vampire species on Earth. 
5) Noah Van Helsing is a member of the famous vampire-slaying family who is determined to "do them one better" by destroying Dracula. 
6) Divinity Drake is a "half-breed" human/vampire hybrid (like Blade) who is Noah's "cousin from another branch of the family." A direct descendant of the enemy, Divinity is a world-class biochemist and vampirologist whos an expert in bioweaponry and gene manipulation and a three-time Hap-Ki-Do champion. 

References: 
On page 1, Blade thinks to himself that hes been on Divinitys tail for twenty-eight minutes and she still hasnt made him. 

On page 10, Blade says that he saved Divinitys life an hour back and she replies that hed spent the hour before that following her. And on page 14, when Divinity says that she has to run to the office, Blade points out that its One-thirty in the morning. 

Putting these references together, it seems that Blade began following Divinity at about 11:30 PM of Day One and his first meeting with the assembled vampire hunters takes place in the early morning (but after 1:30 AM) of Day Two. However, if Blades reference to the twenty-eight minutes that hed been following Divinity is correct, then maybe her reference to the hour that he spent following her is somewhat exaggerated. If so, then all the events in the story could have taken place in the first few hours of a single day, Day One. Since this is easier, Im going to assume that Blade started following Divinity just after midnight on Day One. Of course, if we go strictly by Transylvanian Time, then these events take place from 7-9 AM on Day One. 

Also, the club for vampyres and Divinitys apartment and the base of the vampire hunters are all located in the same unnamed (but presumably American) city but its not until next issue that its revealed that the city is somewhere on the American East Coast. And Dracula, of course, is in his ancestral keep in Transylvania. 

The four flashbacks in this issue are basically just depictions of what Noah reads aloud from the dossiers. 
Flashback #1 (page 15, panels 3-5): 
Benjamin Soloman Alomii, his unnamed wife (dies) 
A female vampire (presumably Benjamins wife) with some of her victims; Benjamin using a gun to prevent the spread of the plague; Benjamin killing his wife. All these events occurred some indeterminate time before TOD4 #1. 

Flashback #2 (page 16, panels 1-4): 
Michiyo Watanabe, various unnamed vampires (presumably Yiki Onna) 
Michiyo decapitating two vampires with her silver sword; Michiyo shooting a vampire with a nitrate-tipped dart from her blowgun (with two vampires already down); Michiyo watching as the rising sun burns a pile of vampire bodies. All these events occurred some indeterminate time before TOD4 #1. 

Flashback #3 (page 17, panels 2-3): 
Enzo Ferrara, various unnamed students 
Enzo in an auditorium teaching (chemistry?) to a group of students; Enzo running into darkness with a cross in one hand and an electric lamp in the other. These events occurred some indeterminate time before TOD4 #1. 
Note: This flashback mistakenly accompanies Noahs reading from the dossier of Lucas Telling-Stone. 

Flashback #4 (page 18, panels 2-4): 
Lucas Telling-Stone, various unnamed vampires 
Lucas being attacked from behind by a group of vampires and, without even looking back, destroying them with a single hand gesture. 
Note: This flashback mistakenly accompanies Noahs reading from the dossier of Enzo Ferrara. 


TOD4 2 (Tomb of Dracula #2, cover-dated January, 2005) 
untitled 
(story) Robert Rodi and Bruce Jones; (script) Robert Rodi; (pencils) Jamie Tolagson 

Appearances: Divinity Drake, Blade, Benjamin Soloman Alomii, Michiyo Watanabe, Lucas Telling-Stone, Enzo Ferrara, Noah Van Helsing, Dracula, Draculas five generals (including the robed one), Vane of the Mortuus Invitus (the unwilling dead), the Charniputra. 
Note: Varnae and Aamshed the Sumerian Sorcerer are both mentioned but do not actually appear in this issue, not even in flashbacks. 

Brief Synopsis: After some training together, the team of vampire hunters are briefed about the nature and history of the transformation that Dracula is attempting and how Noah plans to stop it, unaware that the now-immobile Dracula is able to monitor their activities. That night, as the team drives to the airport to board their private jet, they are ambushed by a large number of vampires. Outnumbered, they are rescued by the Mortuus Invitus, ninja-garbed good vampires, and continue with their quest. Hours later, having crossed an ocean and several time zones, the vampire hunters are flying over the Carpathian Mountains, unaware that a horde of bat-winged vampires (Charniputra) are about to attack their plane. 

No true flashbacks in this issue. However, Noahs briefing about Varnae is accompanied by what looks like a picture of the vampire lord (from an unknown source). Over on the Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe website, the references to Varnaes two attempts to ascend would be listed as TOD4 2 (fb)-BTS to indicate a past event which was described in words but wasnt an actual flashback. 

References: 
On page 6, while Noah is talking about the last time a vampire lord has the opportunity to ascend to godhood, a video screen is displaying a picture of a sheet of paper with the heading Annus Dominus 1004. Presumably, this is meant to be from a record of that last attempt and places it as occurring in 1004 AD. 

On page 4, the open-air training facility appears to be in daylight. 

On page 6, the building in which the team is meeting seems to be set against a background of a starry night sky with a possibly-full moon. On page 14, while driving to the airfield, a full moon is visible in the dark sky. Also, the team is a few minutes early for their plane flight which, according to Noah on page 11, is scheduled for ten oclock that night. 

The issue also contains the first clear indication of where the vampire hunters are based. While driving to the airfield, their van passes a sign which indicates that a left turn would lead them east to route (?) 31 while a right turn would lead them west to interstate 490. According to a Google search, there is an Interstate 490 in New York (and another short one in Ohio). Whatever city theyre in, it seems likely that its somewhere in the Eastern Time Zone 

Since Romania and Transylvania are 7 hours ahead of Eastern Standard Time, that means that its already 5 AM at Castle Dracula by the time that the team leaves the East Coast at 10 PM. Since they are flying east over the Atlantic, they are also flying into the future (time zone-wise) and soon they are in the early hours of the next day. And since its already dark by the time they approach Transylvania (say 7 or 8 PM?), that means that their flight lasted about 14-15 hours. 

Its not clear how much time the vampire hunters spent training between the end of TOD4 #1 and the beginning of TOD4 #2. I had initially assumed that TOD4 #2 began only hours after TOD4 #1 ended. If so, then that would mean that it was still Day One when the teams plane took off that night. However, according to the timeline Ive prepared, the daylight training depicted in this issue must actually take place on Day Three and Noahs nighttime (EST) briefing must then occur (in Transylvanian Time) early in the morning of Day Four since the vampire hunters 10PM EST departure occurs at 5 AM TT on Day Four. 


TOD4 3 (Tomb of Dracula #3, cover-dated February, 2005) 
untitled 
(writer) Robert Rodi; (pencils) Jamie Tolagson 

Appearances: Blade, Noah Van Helsing (born Noah Tremayne (dies)), Enzo Ferrara, Benjamin Soloman Alomii, Michiyo Watanabe (dies), Divinity Drake, Lucas Telling-Stone, Dracula, Draculas generals (including Kuyuk (dies) of the Charniputra, Juito of the Yiki Onna and the robed one), Mr. Gheorghiu (truck driver), Ion (dies) 

Brief Synopsis: Surviving the attack by the Charniputra and the destruction of their plane, the vampire hunters all parachute to safety. Dracula punishes Kuyuk, the leader of the Charniputra, by absorbing him into Draculas body. While spending the day walking to Brasov, Enzo reveals that the final ritual that will complete Draculas ascension requires him to merge with a living female to produce a new breed of vampires who are immune to sunlight. Arriving in the town nearest to Draculas castle, the team finds that Noahs contact Ion has already arrived (with the nuke) but they are soon attacked by three of the Yiki Onna. Michiyo kills two of them but sacrifices her life in the process. The third abducts Noah and brings him to Dracula who taunts him about not really being a Van Helsing and then disposes of him. Back in the town, Divinity seems to reveal herself as Draculas agent by pulling a gun on Blade and firing. 

References: 
On pages 2-5, the Charniputras attack on the place takes place in a sky that is pink (i.e. sunset). 

On page 9, just after Blade regains consciousness, Noah states that its dawn on the day of Draculas transformation (it just LOOKS dark out). 

Page 9 has a panel showing a bright circle in an otherwise dark sky. Since the circle is unblemished, I assume that its meant to be the Sun. I guess the Transylvanian sky is always dark...even when the Sun is out. 

On page 14, when the hunters arrive at their destination and meet up with Ion, the Sun is visible above the rooftops of the town thats just a couple miles from Castle Dracula. That puts them in Brasov just before sunset. 

The only flashback in this issue is the one on pages 7-8 in which Ben recalls how he took a weapon with him when he jumped from the plane, let himself freefall until he was below the attacking vampires, opened his parachute, fired an explosive shell up at the vampires, and then used the recoil from another shot to get him close enough to grab hold of the falling Blade. It consists of all 7 panels on page 6 and the first 5 panels on page 7, and depicts events which happened after panel 3 on page 4 and before page 6. Only Ben, Divinity, Blade and some Charniputra appear in this sequence. However, I'm not quite sure how to list it in their entries. 


TOD4 4 (Tomb of Dracula #4, cover-dated March, 2005) 
untitled 
(writer) Robert Rodi; (pencils) Jamie Tolagson 

Appearances: Blade, Divinity Drake (Aamshed the sorceress, dies?), Benjamin Soloman Alomii (dies), Lucas Telling-Stone, Enzo Ferrara (dies), Dracula (dies), Groza of the Mortuus Invitus (all die), Draculas generals (all die), Deacon Frost (dies) 

Brief Synopsis: Divinity was actually shooting a Charniputra who was about to attack Blade from behind. The five surviving vampire hunters find themselves facing Draculas whole army and things dont go well. Enzo is soon killed, Divinity takes the nuke and tries to make it to the castle but quickly falls under Draculas mental control and Ben disappears, leaving Blade and Lucas fighting back-to-back. Just as theyre about to be overwhelmed, the local Mortuus Invitus show up and save them. Leaving the salvation of the town in their hands, Blade heads to the castle, dealing with a vampirized Ben along the way, and arrives in Draculas lair just after Divinity does. Dracula allows Blade to fight his robed general, now revealed as Deacon Frost, but once Blade has destroyed Frost, Dracula reveals that Blade has been his unwitting spy. His limbs now under Draculas control, Blade is forced to stand and watch as the vampire lord creates a giant new body for himself (out of the earth of (his) ancestors and the flesh of his minions). Dracula then completes the final ritual of his ascension by absorbing Divinity into himself but is shocked to discover that its all been a trick. Divinity is actually Aamshed, the Sumerian sorcerESS who created the spell of ascension for Varnay, and she has manipulated events to bring herself face-to-face with the would-be vampire god so that she might destroy him with the weapon that she has been gathering during the millennia that she has spent in hibernation  the souls of those who died at the hands of vampires. Aamshed only needs one soul to destroy Dracula but she lets him have it with all SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND souls. As giant Dracula convulses in pain, Blade is freed and quickly stakes him in the heart. The brilliant white light of the souls bursts from Draculas chest and erupts from Castle Dracula, washing over all the vampires battling in the town below and leaving Lucas standing alone in the middle of a field of skeletons. Blade watches as the last the Draculas giant body is destroyed and leaves, wondering why, if theyve succeeded and the planets safe for another thousand years, hes not happy (like he should be). 

References: 
Everything in this issue takes place over the course of a few hours on the night of Draculas transformation into a vampire god. Oddly, in the scene where Divinity arrives at Castle Dracula, the sky appears to be sunset-pink. Also, the last panel on page 22 might depict Lucas watching as the Sun rises over the mountains. If so, that would mean that the events on pages 9-22 took place over the course of 9-12 hours but that seems unlikely. Maybe the sun is actually just residual light from the souls as the last of them leave Castle Dracula? 

There are no actual flashbacks in this issue. However, Aamsheds telling Dracula about what she did after Varnae forced her to create the spell of ascension would be listed as TOD4 4 (fb)-BTS over on the Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe website to indicate a past event which was described in words but wasnt an actual flashback. 


Timeline 
DAY ONE: 
Morning, c. 7AM to 9 AM TT (midnight to 2 AM EST)  Blade meets up with Divinity Drake, Noah Van Helsing and the other four vampire hunters. Dracula is not yet in chrysalis. (Issue #1) 
During the day (EST) the vampire hunters presumably train together and that night (TT) Dracula enters chrysalis. (Between issues 1 & 2) 

DAY TWO 
During this day (EST) the vampire hunters presumably train together while Draculas transformation continues. (Between issues) 

DAY THREE 
During the daylight hours (EST) the vampire hunters presumably continue to train together. (Issue 2, pages 2-5) 

DAY FOUR 
Early morning TT (Late night of Day Three EST)  Noah briefs the team of vampire hunters about how Dracula is planning to ascend to godhood and reveals that he plans to thwart the vampire lords metamorphosis by bringing a nuke down into Draculas crypt and detonating it there. Dracula uses his new powers to secretly spy on the vampire hunters through the eyes and ears of someone in their group, and then he tells his five generals what hes learned about their enemies. (Issue 2, pages 6-13) 
5 AM TT (10 PM of Day Three EST)  The vampire hunters are attacked by a vampire horde as they approach the airport and only survive thanks to a rescue by some of the Mortuus Invitus. A ticked-off Dracula makes plans with the Charniputra. (Issue 2, pages 14-22) 
Dusk (TT)  After flying for about 14-15 hours, the vampire hunters are crossing the Carpathian Mountains, unaware of the flock (?) of Charniputra about to attack their plane. (Issue 2, pages 22-23) 
Dusk (TT)  The Charniputra horde attacks the plane, tearing it apart, but Blade attacks them to give his teammates enough time to don parachutes and escape. Ben destroys the Charniputra and saves an unconscious Blade (Issue 3, pages 2-5 & FB on pages 7-8) 

DAY FIVE 
Dawn  Blade regains consciousness, the vampire hunters begin traveling to Brasov. Dracula kills Kuyuk and waits while his enemies approach. (Issue 3, pages 6-13) 
Dusk  Three Yiki Onna attack the vampire hunters. Michiyo kills two but only at the cost of her life and the third brings Noah to Dracula in his lair. Divinity seemingly reveals herself to be Draculas agent. (Issue 3, pages 14-24) 
Evening  Draculas army attack the vampire hunters in the town plaza. The local Mortuus Invitus come to the rescue but not before Enzo and Ben die and Divinity falls under Draculas control. (Issue 4, pages 1-8) 
Night  Divinity and Blade enter Draculas lair beneath his castle. Blade kills Deacon Frost (again) but finds himself helpless against Draculas new powers. Dracula create a giant new body for himself and tries to complete his ascension by absorbing Divinity into himself but things dont go as hed planned. Dracula learns that Divinity is really Aamshed just before she releases upon him the six hundred thousand souls that she has gathered over the past two millennia. With help from Blade, Dracula and all the vampires in the town are destroyed and the world is safe for another thousand years. (Issue 4, pages 9-23) 


AAMSHED/Divinity Drake 
TOD4 2  FB  BTS 
TOD4 4  FB  BTS 
TOD4 1 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 (+ TOD4 3  FB) 
TOD4 4 

ALOMII, BENJAMIN SOLOMAN 
TOD4 1  FB 
TOD4 1 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 (+ TOD4 3  FB) 
TOD4 4 

BLADE 
If I read the FAQ correctly, the never-finished Blade LS and the two short-lived Blade ongoing series are considered to be outside of continuity by the Project, right? If so, then Blades last appearance prior to this TOD LS was in PPSM2 7-8. 
TOD4 1 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 (+ TOD4 3  FB) 
TOD4 4 
next in M/TU3 8 

DRACULA/VLAD TEPES (last in BLOODSTONE 4) 
TOD4 1 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 
TOD4 4 

DRAKE, DIVINITY (see Aamshed) 

FERRARA, ENZO 
TOD4 1  FB 
TOD4 1 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 
TOD4 4 

FROST, DEACON (last in Blade: Crescent City Blues) 
TOD4 2 (as robed vampire) 
TOD4 3 
TOD4 4 (identity revealed) 

JUITO of the Yiki Onna 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 (named) 
TOD4 4 

KUYUK of the Charniputra 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 (named) 

TELLING-STONE, LUCAS 
TOD4 1  FB 
TOD4 1 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 
TOD4 4 

VAN HELSING, NOAH (born Noah Tremayne) 
TOD4 1 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 

VARNAE  No MCP entry? 
TOD4 2  FB  BTS (circa 2,000 years ago) 
(Marvel Comics Presents #63/4)  Circa 1000 AD, the Viking settlements in Vinland 
TOD4 2  FB  BTS (circa 1,000 years ago [AD 1004]) 

WATANABE, MICHIYO 
TOD4 1  FB 
TOD4 1 
TOD4 2 
TOD4 3 

Minor characters: 

doorman at vampyre club 
TOD4 1 

Gheorghiu, Mr. 
TOD4 3 

Groza of the Mortuus Invitus (Transylvania) 
TOD4 4 

Hector 
TOD4 1 

Ion 
TOD4 3 

Vane of the Mortuus Invitus (USA) 
TOD4 2 

Well, that's it. How'd I do? 

EDITED: Added info from mini-biographies. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 12:02 pm    
By Enda80

Most of Varnae's appearances seem to have fallen into the gap. He also made two appearances in Conan the Barbarian. 

Varane's non-gap appearances include Doctor Strange III#11/2, Bizarre Adventures#33/4, MCP#63/4, Doctor Strange III#12/2 to 13/2, and Doctor Strange III#18. 

from marvunapp.com 
Bizarre Adventures#33 (Dr. Strange II#62(fb)/Dr. Strange III#11/2, Conan the Barbarian I#245(fb1), Conan#245(fb2), 245(fb3), Conan tB#244,245, BizAdv33/4(fb), Tomb of Dracula IV#2(fb), Marvel Comics Presents#63/4, Doc III#12/2, 13/2, BizAdv33/4//Dracula Lives!#2/1//[Dracula Lives#3/1 (BTS))]. 
Doc III#18, Spirits of Vengeance#19, [Ns#16,17], 18, [Blade:Vampire Hunter I#1-3], 4,5 

I don't have those Conan issues, but I remember enough of them to do an improptu synopsis. Only Amalric of Nemedia presents any challenges.

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 12:10 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Looks great, Don! Your review appears to be structured perfectly for the calender. 

Quote: 
>>>
What about the Blade the Vampire Hunter series which ran for 10 issues in 1994-1995? Is it also considered non-canon?  
<<<

Hmmm...I don't believe that falls in the gap. I'm not sure what it's status is. 


Quote: 
>>>
DAY THREE 
During the daylight hours (EST) the vampire hunters presumably continue to train together. (Issue 2, pages 2-5)  
<<<

Okay, just to clarify, what happens on page 1 of Issue 2? 


Quote: 
>>>
Dusk (TT)  The Charniputra horde attacks the plane, tearing it apart, but Blade attacks them to give his teammates enough time to don parachutes and escape. Ben destroys the Charniputra and saves an unconscious Blade (Issue 3, pages 2-5 & FB on pages 7-8)  
<<<

Again, what happens on page 1 of Issue 3? Maybe I'm overlooking it and missing it somehow... 

But really, your review looks good!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 01:18 pm    
By DonCampbell

Sorry about that, the fault is all mine. The last three issues all began with recap pages which summarized what had happened "Previously" in the LS. Originally I had written both brief and detailed synopses for each issue but then I realized that that level of detail wasn't really necessary (and was rather long-winded) so I cut them out. However, I forgot that I had counted each recap page as "Page 1" of its issue and hadn't corrected the numbering. Again, sorry for the confusion. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 06:34 pm    
By JLH

It's mostly in the gap, as far as I ever heard. It's canon, spins directly out of the "Nightstalkers" series, and is later referenced in the "Crescent City Blues" one-shot more or less. The more recent Blade monthlies have been out of continuity due to their ignorance of major, irreconcilable backstory remarks, trying to make it match the movies instead of the books. If it's pre-movie, it's more than likely canon.

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Posted: 02 Jul 2005 07:42 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/montesi.htm#Vittorio 

One wonders how Enzo Ferrara fits in with Vittorio Montesi, also described as the lead archivist for the Vatican's occult books. 

Come to think of it, Silver Dagger found the Necronomicon in the Vatican's library. Too bad these guys did not stop him at the time. 

http://web.archive.org/web/20011118095335/http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/littleton/re0_cath.htm

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Thread 33

Posted: 26 Jun 2005 04:56 pm    Post subject: Silver Surfer: Homecoming (October 1991, gaphic novel)
By metaldragon

Silver Surfer: Homecoming (October 1991, graphic novel) 


Back cover blurb: 
DREAMS FULFILLED: When the Silver Surfer finds that his homeworld, Zenn-La, is kidnapped and made part of a private collection of planets, he expects the worst. But instead he discovers a long-nurtured wish come true. Within the sanctuary of the Great One's collection, Zenn-La is safe for the first time in decades. The Surfer can now, at long last, return home and be united with his love, Shalla Bal. 

BRUTAL REALITY: The best of dreams are always accompanied by rude awakenings, and this particular fleeting phantasm comes at a tragic cost to the Silver Surfer. 

Death awaits within the realm of the Great One. 


Chronological Clues: 
For Moondragon this story could only take place between Warlock and the Infinity Watch #13 and 14 and probably after the 4th story (Duel of Pride!) in Fantastic Four Annual #25 which also fits in that gap. In issue 14 of W&IW, Moondragon mentions that she's "Been testing my enhanced mental powers." which is nicely understated for what she'd been up to in those two stories. lol! For the Silver Surfer, these events take place sometime between his appearances in Infinity War and Infinity Crusade. I'm not sure which issues of his title this impacts. 

The events of this story are continued in the Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection 4-part mini-series (March-June, 1993) which could only take place between Warlock and the Infinity Watch #15 and 16 for Moondragon and the rest of the Infinity Watch, and sometime between the end of Infinity War and before Infinity Crusade begins for the Silver Surfer. 


Characters: 
Silver Surfer 
Moondragon 
Shalla Bal 
The Great One (a cosmic being that dies in this story) 
the entire population of the planet Zen-La
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 27 Jun 2005 10:14 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I think someone worked out in an old thread that this had to go between SS3 75 & 76 for the Surfer's chronology. He references it in SS3 76, and it can be inferred from that reference that this also occurs after SS3 75. 

-Sean

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 02:19 am    
By metaldragon

Do you know if the Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection mini also fits (after SS:Homecoming) between SS3 75 & 76?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 09 Jul 2005 02:30 am    
By JLH

No, since in 76, he refers to Shalla's death. I figure it's just before Infinity Crusade's crossovers for him. A small amount of time passes between "Homecoming" and the Resurrection mini.

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Posted: 09 Jul 2005 11:04 am    
By metaldragon

Ah, yes about 2 issues of Warlock and the Infinity Watch (#14 -15) pass for Moondragon between Homecoming and the Resurrection mini.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 04 Jul 2005 10:37 pm    Post subject: Elektra: The Hand #1-5
By SeanCurtin

ELEKTRA: THE HAND #1 (Nov 04) 

"Years ago", six members of the Hand perform a ritual over a body that is concealed in white wrappings, all dying in order to return the body to life. Elektra, watching all of this with an unnamed Hand member, is told of the origins of the Hand. 

"1575". Kagenobu Yoshioka lives in Kyushu, Japan with his unnamed mother, who prostitutes herself to survive after the death of her samurai husband. Kagenobu returns home after fighting with other children, and finds her being assaulted by a foreign client. The Westerner threatens them, so Kagenobu fatally stabs him in the throat with his mother's hairpin. His mother covers herself in the man's blood and then stabs him with a knife to eliminate any suspicion of her son in the crime. The constable arrests her, and as she is dragged away, she leaves a bloody handprint on the front of Kagenobu's shirt. Both the inspector (Imagawa) and Saburo Ishiyama, the sensei of the Ishiyama Sword School, know that the boy did the killing, although since the only evidence implicates the mother, she is the one to be executed. Ishiyama convinces Inspector Imagawa to place Kagenobu in the care of Ishiyama and his school, where he is trained in bushido so that he might help keep the foreign presence in Japan in check. 

"Ten years later", Kagenobu finishes his final test by defeating an opponent, Daisuke Sasaki, in unarmed combat. Daisuke is scarred across the face by Kagenobu's sai. Kagenobu is allowed to graduate and to make his way in the world, alone. 

ELEKTRA: THE HAND #2 (Nov 04) 

"Autumn, 1587." Kagenobu Yoshioka is in Honshu, Japan, having refused to have a patron as do other samurai. He has adopted the handprint as his insignia, and has never been defeated in combat. Kikuchi, a student or teacher from the Ishiyama School (likely the latter given the use of the -san suffix), finds him in an inn. Kikuchi informs Kagenobu that Ishiyama is dead and that he wished for Kagenobu to return to and lead the school. 

"Two months later. Summer, 1588." Kagenobu and Kikuchi return to the school in Kyushu. While praying for the memory of Ishiyama, he is confronted by Daisuke Sasaki, who leads the school in his absence and has held something of a grude since their duel at the graduation, which was "three years" ago. Kagenobu attempts to honor Daisuke by offering that they head the school together. He then suggests that they expand the schoo, but Daisuke informs him that they cannot, as the ruling daimyos prevent the schools from growing too large to form a threat. Kagenobu suggests that they strike back against the corrupt daimyos and foreigners by forming a secret society from their school, "reclaiming" what is rightfully theirs. Kabenobu coins the name of the Hand by likening the five fingers of the hand to the five islands of Japan: when the five fingers come together, "the Hand becomes an object of unwavering power!" 

"Three months later. Autumn, 1588." Kagenobu and Daisuke return to the town in Kyshu where Kagenobu lived with his mother. There, they plot their show of force against the "foreign heathens". One night not too much later (probably that following night), the Hand's assassins row up to the largest ship in the harbor and kill every man aboard. 

ELEKTRA: THE HAND #3 (Dec 04) 

"Summer, 1590." Kagenobu brings the inner circle of the Hand together, face-to-face, for the first time. Daisuke is distressed with the disparity of their new allies and insults them, but apologizes to Kagenobu in private the next afternoon. A pair of foreigners soon arrive at the school's gate; Kagenobu is ready to kill the older man, Martinez, until his half-Japanese daughter Eliza intervenes. They are sent away, but Eliza returns the next day and demands admittance to the school. When refused, she waits outside the gate through the night and into the next morning. Kagenobu, impressed, allows the pair to return the next day and explain their case. Martinez's Japanese wife - Eliza's mother - was murdered by judgmental ronin while Martinez was away, and Eliza has since wished to learn how to hurt and kill those who caused her suffering. Kagenobu admits her to the school, much to Daisuke's horror - until Kagenobu explains that he will use Martinez's connections to the foreign community to gather information and then kill the pair. 

"Two years" of training later ("Autumn, 1592" per next issue), Eliza is ready for admittance into the Hand, but Kagenobu has begun to fall in love with her. 

ELEKTRA: THE HAND #4 (Jan 05) 

Continued directly from the end of last issue. Eliza finishes her test by assassinating a target, realizing too late that her victim was a Mr. Fernandez, who she knew personally. When she returns to the school, Kagenobu explains that he had her kill Fernandez simply because he wasn't Japanese, and explains the purpose of the Hand and his initial ulterior motives for allowing her to join them (but failing to mention the possibility of killing her or her father). Kagenobu and Eliza become lovers, and the Hand wages an ongoing terror campaign against the foreigners in Japan. 

"Spring, 1594." Eliza is walking through the woods in Kyushu, alone, when attacked by a lone assassin. She fatally wounds him, and before she finishes him, he reveals that elements in the Hand are conspiring against her and Kagenobu for his involvement with her, a foreign woman. 

"One week later", she returns to the school and warns Kagenobu about the division, which he confirms. Kagenobu confronts Daisuke, who has organized the remainder of the Hand against him. They duel, and Kagenobu wins, finishing his opponent with the hairpin that killed the man who threatened his mother. Meanwhile, Eliza finds her father dead by the Hand's hand. She and Kagenobu stand back to back as the other Hand sect leaders approach, weapons drawn. 

ELEKTRA: THE HAND #5 (Feb 05) 

Continued directly from the end of last issue. The remaining four Hand sect leaders, and their many ninjas, confront Kagenobu and Eliza. Each side acuses the other of betrayal: Kagenobu for his relationship with Eliza, the others for their mercenary activities on the side. After a protracted battle that begins with the death of one of the sect leaders, the two lovers are critically wounded. Kagenobu asks Eliza to kill him with his mother's hairpin; she does, then uses it to kill herself. The sect leaders then go on to raise Eliza from the dead, in the same fashion as seen in the Elektra sequence in issue #1. Off-panel, they brainwash her and then resurrect and do the same to Kagenobu. Eliza is seen one last time in a splash page as a servant of the Hand. 

In the present day, Elektra's nameless narrator, continuing from #1, tells her that her destiny is in her hands. Elektra and the anonymous Hand member disappear, and the resurrected figure on the slab awakens: the person being revived was Elektra all along, and the conversation she had was a vision or hallucination that she had while being brought back to life. Elektra discards her wrappings in favor of her white costume. 

As an aside: Visually, I get the implication that the characters seen here became archetypes for later members of the Hand, including its splinter group, the Chaste. Aside from the obvious parallel between Eliza Martinez and Elektra, which Elektra's imaginary narrator makes clear, the Hand sect leaders resemble members of the Chaste. In particular, Daisuke Sasaki strongly resembles Stone, although he has none of Stone's special attributes, and another, unnamed sect leader is, aside from his facial tattoos, almost identical to Stick. 

For the purposes of the chronologies, I'm listing all appearances as non-flashback appearances. However, the non-present day scenes could be interpreted as flashbacks, in which case every character save for Elektra should have -FB amended onto all of their appearances in this series. 

Character chronologies: 

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS 
DD 190 
**ELEK:H 1 
**ELEK:H 2-BTS 
**ELEK:H 3-BTS 
**ELEK:H 4-BTS 
**ELEK:H 5 
DD 190 

**FERNANDEZ, MR. 
ELEK:H 3-BTS 
ELEK:H 4 

**IMAGAWA, INSPECTOR 
ELEK:H 1 

**ISHIYAMA, SABURO 
ELEK:H 1 
ELEK:H 2-BTS 

**KIKUCHI 
ELEK:H 2 

**MARTINEZ, MR. 
ELEK:H 3 
ELEK:H 4 

**MARTINEZ, ELIZA 
ELEK:H 3 
ELEK:H 4 
ELEK:H 5 

**SASAKI, DAISUKE 
ELEK:H 1 
ELEK:H 2 
ELEK:H 3 
ELEK:H 4 
ELEK:H 5 

**YOSHIOKA, MRS. 
ELEK:H 1 

**YOSHIOKA, KAGINOBU 
ELEK:H 1 
ELEK:H 2 
ELEK:H 3 
ELEK:H 4 
ELEK:H 5 

-Sean

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Posted: 05 Jul 2005 09:25 am    
By Enda80

"Three months later. Autumn, 1588." Kagenobu and Daisuke return to the town in Kyshu where Kagenobu lived with his mother. There, they plot their show of force against the "foreign heathens". " 

Thanks for the analysis. Amusing sidebar; the term "heathen" properly refers to someone other than a Jew, Christian, Muslim and maybe Baha'i. As most Japanese in 1588 worshipped the Shinto gods, they represented heathenism, not foreigners. (Reminds how Namor-who worships Neptune-called Set worshippers "pagan". Wait a minute-who does Namor think he is, Mohammed?) 

Does the Beast figure in this story at all? I skimmed it at the book store, and saw no reference to the Beast.

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Posted: 05 Jul 2005 12:50 pm    
By Arthur
Director

Although one meaning certainly is 

"One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam." 

"heathen" can also mean 

"One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened." 

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition 
Copyright  2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. 


not everything has religious undertones.

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Posted: 05 Jul 2005 04:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thank you, Arthur.  

And no, Enda, Hank McCoy doesn't appear in this series. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jul 2005 07:33 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/beasthand.htm 
Not Hank McCoy, the other Beast. 

The Hand's Beast actually seems rather ill-defined.

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Posted: 05 Jul 2005 10:44 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I was teasing you, Enda.  

By the way, Sean, good write-up. In answer to your question about flashbacks, I'd only add the "FB" notation in issues that had framing sequences -- meaning, #1 and 5. In #2-4, the whole story in the issue was set in the past -- it wasn't being "flashed back to" within the context of that single issue. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Jul 2005 04:56 pm    
By SeanCurtin

No, the Beast doesn't appear or recieve a mention here at all. Either the Hand came into his service after the events of this series, or one or more of the unnamed sect leaders was a servant of the Beast prior to the formation of the Hand. Since Daisuke describes them as "heretics" in the begining of #2, the latter might be the case. The resurrection ritual might have also come from the same sect, I suppose. 

-Sean

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Posted: 07 Jul 2005 10:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
In answer to your question about flashbacks, I'd only add the "FB" notation in issues that had framing sequences -- meaning, #1 and 5. In #2-4, the whole story in the issue was set in the past -- it wasn't being "flashed back to" within the context of that single issue. 
<<<

Could have sworn I answered this a couple of days ago, but apparently not... 

Anyhow, I'd take a different view. It's a little awkward and confusing for some parts of a story to be flashbacks, and some not, depending purely on where the break between issues happens to fall. 

The key to this, I think, is to recognise that a flashback is a storytelling concept - an event which takes place in the past, relative to the main timeframe of the story. This is why HOWLING COMMANDOS, for example, isn't a flashback book - events in World War II are the book's "present." 

ELEKTRA: THE HAND is a lengthy flashback contained within a framing sequence, but it has to be recognised that the whole series constitutes a single story arc. The framing sequences in issues #1 and #5 establish the "present" for the purposes of the story. That has the effect of coding the bulk of issues #1 and #5 as flashbacks - but, crucially, it also establishes issues #2-4 as flashbacks, because they're part of the same storyline, and the framing sequences continue to operate as the context for those chapters. There's no reason to exclude them from consideration simply because they happen to fall in a different issue. Issues #2-4 are flashbacks in their entirety, and there's nothing inherently problematic about that when they form part of a wider storyline.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Jul 2005 11:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
Could have sworn I answered this a couple of days ago, but apparently not... 


I think it was a little closer to a couple of minutes ago.  


watching: smallville

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Posted: 07 Jul 2005 12:51 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Tsk. The board wasn't responding to the "Submit" button, for some reason - must have double-clicked before it went down on me.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Jul 2005 05:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So the framing sequence shown in issues #1 and #5 of Elektra: The Hand is the only part of this series that occurs in the modern (post-FF 1) Marvel Universe, and that's "years ago." Sean C. suggests placement between pages or panels of DD 190. I'm assuming that DD 190 is the issue in which Elektra's resurrection is depicted or at least hinted at, right? Where does the break occur in DD 190 into which we'd insert ELEK:H?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 35

Posted: 28 Jun 2005 07:12 pm    Post subject: Marvel Adventures: a Jack in the Box Exclusive!
By jephyork
Director

Back to everyones favorite topic, giveaway books! 

"Marvel Adventures"  a Jack in the Box Exclusive! 

No issue number on cover. Indicia reads "Marvels Adventures" (sic), vol. 1 no. 1, December 2001. No title or credits, although art is by Udon. 

Synopsis: a man named Dunn is released from Rikers Island  hes been incarcerated there for ten years, but in all that time the police never found where he stashed his stolen loot. He wants to retrieve it, but the police will be keeping a close eye on him  so he unleashes several robots, the location of which was given to him by "his cellmate, a criminal mastermind", as a distraction. The robots rampage through midtown Manhattan and Chinatown, and are defeated by Daredevil, the Hulk, the Invisible Woman, Hawkeye and Captain America. One smashed robot begins to display a recording, taken unbeknownst to Dunn, of him musing out loud about the location of his loot  and when Dunn surfaces from a large hole hes dug in Central Park, he finds all five heroes waiting for him. 

Appearances: 

Captain America 
Daredevil 
Hawkeye 
the Hulk 
the Invisible Woman 
Dunn (1st appearance) 

Temporal references: this issue takes place in one day. Its a bright sunny day in NYC, with green grass and green trees with falling green leaves. 

Placement clues: 

Bruce Banner is in Manhattan, and transforms into the traditional "Stupid Hulk". The headline of a newspaper, presumably from the day before, reads "Hulk Rampage Causes Rush Hour Gridlock!" Cap is having lunch in Chinatown with Hawkeye. 

Daredevil, Cap and Hawkeye are all in their traditional costumes. 

Apparently the FF have several subtle "traditional costume" variations  the Invisible Woman is wearing a costume with black boots, gloves, belt and neck, a line down the front of her outfit, and a flat (cloth) blue "4" on white in a black circle that does not overlap her neckline. 

Notes: 

Its never stated who Dunns robot-owning "criminal mastermind" cellmate is. 

Also, since we see Dunn at the beginning of the issue, then later in a recording that picks up from that moment, then in real time at the end of the issue, his chronology  assuming he gets listed on the MCP  should look like this: 

DUNN 
M/ADVJB (1-2) 
M/ADVJB-FB 
M/ADVJB (3-16) 

Continuity notes: 

Im curious about this comics canonicity. Aside from it being a giveaway book, which is a whole separate issue, its using the 1997 "Marvel Adventures" title and logo  and if I recall correctly, that was a book that told kid-friendly, non-canon stories set in a generalized Marvel-ish Universe. Which is certainly what this seems to be. (The Hulk has some pretty goofy quips while fighting the robots  like "Hulk no find recycling bin!"  and does Hawkeye really use a *boxing-glove arrow*?) 

Odd writing aside, nothing in the issue seems to actively contradict anything we know  or at least, anything I know. In an awkwardly-written scene, Hawkeye spends a few pages teasing Cap by explaining his origin to impress a pretty waitress, and Cap teases Hawkeye back by explaining his criminal past. The "new-reader friendly" expository dialogue is pretty clunky  but at least its broadly consistent with the characters pasts. 

However, in one scene the Invisible Woman wonders to herself how Daredevil saw her while she was invisible. Is she really unaware of DDs super-senses? 

If shes well aware of them in regular continuity, one might argue that her line here, combined with the "Marvel Adventures" title and the general tone, indicates that this issue is set in the kid-friendly Marvel-ish Universe of that title. 

However, if one believes that the issue might be canon, then let me propose a general spot for it. 

The obvious inclination would be to place it near comics published in December 2001. However, during that time, Hawkeye was either affiliated with the Thunderbolts or jailed. While nothing in this issue states that he's an active Avenger, he's wearing his traditional outfit  not the long-sleeved one with the T-Bolts belt buckle that he wore from TB #43-75. 

Looking at the general area prior to TB #43 for placement slots, Hawkeye's in the right outfit but the Invisible Woman isn't. I don't have all the relevant FF3 issues, but she appears in TB #43 wearing her Pacheco-designed pre-Onslaught costume (with the big stylized off-center "4"). TB #43 occurs between FF3 #34-35, and from the issues I have it appears that she wears this same costume from at least FF3 #13-34. In FF3 #6-8 she's wearing an outfit that's similar to the one in this issue, but the neckline drops down and is overlapped by the circle around the "4". And in FF3 #40-on she's wearing a version that looks just like this  except the "4" is now a raised piece of communications equipment, surrounded by a metal circle. 

For all I know, sometime between FF3 #9-12 the Invisible Woman goes back to wearing an outfit that looks like this, and there's a perfect place to slot it in  but I doubt it. It looks like she's in the wrong costume for all of FF3 #1-34, which basically wipes out a pre-A3 #31 spot for this issue to occur. 

We could try to call her costume an "art error" and "close enough" to the one seen in FF3 #6-8 (and presumably #1-5 as well)  but we'd have to place it before Cap loses his original shield in CA3 #2. And because a bystander yells out "call the Avengers!" in this issue, we know that the team is publically known to have re-formed post-Heroes Reborn. Unfortunately, A3 #4  the issue where they publicly re-form  occurs after CA3 #2, so we have two options: place this issue after A3 #4 and declare Cap's shield a phony; or place this issue prior to CA3 #2 and between A3 #3-4, and assume that the world knows the Avengers are back as a team, even though they haven't decided on their new lineup yet. 

However, is the Hulk available to appear in NYC in the Stupid Hulk persona at this point (around H2 #464-465, just about the same time as the "death" of Betty Banner)? 

I think a better solution might be to look post-TB #75. Sue's costume in FF3 #40-up is closer in appearance to the one shown here  we could call it "close enough" to that one as well. And Hawkeye would be back in the right costume, and I believe Cap and Daredevil also correspond. 

However  does the Hulk work in this area either? I realize that Bruce recovered from a near-fatal bout of ALS in H3 #32 and that we're poking around the area covered by Bruce Jones' "fugitive Banner" run beginning in H3 #34, but is there a chance that the issue could occur between #33-34? I only own #33 from this area, but believe the Hulk is in Stupid Hulk mode in that issue. 

I *believe* this placement area could work  everybody's in basically the right outfit and status quo. However, I can't narrow down anyone's exact before-and-afters without a little help. 

So does anyone have any thoughts where  if it's deemed canon  this issue might fit, in the area just after TB #75 and between H3 #33-34? Or the area between A3 #3-4 and around H2 #465? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 04:53 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
However  does the Hulk work in this area either? I realize that Bruce recovered from a near-fatal bout of ALS in H3 #32 and that we're poking around the area covered by Bruce Jones' "fugitive Banner" run beginning in H3 #34, but is there a chance that the issue could occur between #33-34? I only own #33 from this area, but believe the Hulk is in Stupid Hulk mode in that issue. 
<<<

I believe we were going on the assumption that there is a pretty big gap in between H3 #33 and #34, (as the tone of the Bruce Jones run is so different from the regular Hulk stories). So yes, I'd say this would be the perfect place for putting Hulk's appearance. I would suggest it be done after his appearance in "The Order", (Hulk's chronology is pretty tightly interwoven before that period). That would also match up with it being around the time Hawkeye is in post TB #75 mode. 


Quote: 
>>>
However, in one scene the Invisible Woman wonders to herself how Daredevil saw her while she was invisible. Is she really unaware of DDs super-senses?  
<<<

I think her line is easily chalked up to her perhaps wondering exactly how those supersenses work, (she knows he has super senses, perhaps, but doesn't know the specifics). 

Though I should point out that this would be the area in time when Daredevil's secret identity was revealed to the press. Maybe she's wondering how a blind man like Matt Murdock can see her? Going by how messed up Matt Murdock's personal life is around the time immediately after his I.D. is revealed, I suggest placing this perhaps before DD#41, (the start of the storyline leading up to his defeating Wilson Fisk and declaring himself the New Kingpin).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Jul 2005 06:16 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Based on everyone's opinions in this thread, I'm inclined toward placing M/ADV 1 on Monday, July 15 of Year 21 of the Calendar. I suppose the newspaper in M/ADV 1 could be an afternoon or late special edition paper reporting on a morning rush-hour distruption caused by Hulk. 

Placement here would put Hawkeye in New York around the time of M/DS 2/2, in which he's hanging with the Avengers just after TB 75. It would put Daredevil here between DD2 37 and 38. Sue Richards would be here between FF3 36 (actually Thing :Freakshow #1) and FF3 37. The Hulk would be here in the big gap between H3 33 and 34, sometime after ORDER 6. And M/ADV would occur shortly after MU:END, in which a whole bunch of heroes appear. 

Assuming M/ADV 1 is canonical, how does this look?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 36

Posted: 28 Jun 2005 05:39 pm    Post subject: Jubilee #1-5
By jephyork
Director

Jubilee #1-5 

Note: my analysis of the series is unfortunately incomplete, as I dont yet have issue #6. I was able to draw solid temporal conclusions about #1-3, but #4-5 are still a little vague. I skipped synopses for #1-2 since Paul B. owns them, but provided quick day-to-day accounts of what happens in #3-5. 

Quick temporal rundown: 

Jubilee #1-6 begins just after MTU3 #1-2, which weve determined in other discussions occurs at least after ASTONX3 #6, UX #459, X #165, W3 #31 and NX #13. The series occurs over four weeks in the school year. There are Christmas decorations at the mall in the fourth week, which, of course, clash with the Christmas shown in X #165  but since the decorations are just a background detail, theyre easily ignored. No moons of any kind are shown, but we see plenty of green trees, sunny days and starry nights in L.A. 

Jubilee #1-2 spans six days, the last five of which are school days. It would fit perfectly into a Sunday and five-day school week  except that the first day of #1, where Jubilee arrives in L.A., is the same day as the final day of MTU3 #2, when she leaves New York  and that was the second of two school days in a row, too. So unless they go to school on weekends in LA, a weekend needs to be inserted somewhere into Jubilee #1-2  and the best place is right between pp.11-12 of #2. Its the only time where there isnt a "next day" or "yesterday"-type reference between days, and luckily its the fifth school day in a row. 

So the series progresses like this: 

Week #1: 
[MTU3 #1-2  two school days in a row. Mon-Tues.] 

Jubilee #1 pp.1-4  same day as the end of MTU3 #2, so therefore a school day. Tuesday. 
Jubilee #1 pp.5-13  the next day, a school day. Wednesday. 
Jubilee #1 pp.14-23  the next day, a school day. Thursday. 

Jubilee #2 pp.1-11  the next day, a school day. Friday. A student teasing Meg mentions "coming into school tomorrow dressed like her", even though "tomorrow" should be a Saturday  but as this is a joke, its easy to overlook the reference as a slip of the tongue. 

Week #2: 
Jubilee #2 pp.12-14  a school day. A weekend (at least) must have passed, and this must be the next school week. Luckily there are no references to "yesterday" here. 
Jubilee #2 pp.15-22  the next day, a school day. Allegedly "not 24 hours" since pp.1-11, but that doesnt work, even without the inserted weekend. See below. 

Week #3: 
Jubilee #3 pp.1-3  "Sunday". 
Jubilee #3 pp.4-13  the next day, a school day  Monday. Wolverine (not in LA) fights ninjas. 
Jubilee #3 pp.14-17  the next day, a school day  Tuesday. "Two days" since #2 pp.15-22, but that doesnt work. See below. 
Jubilee #3 pp.18-22  the next day, a school day  Wednesday. 

Jubilee #5 recap page? See below. 

Week #4: 
Jubilee #4 pp.1-5  at least the week after Jubilee #3  the dance mentioned in #3 was rescheduled for "the week after" its original date (which we dont know), and its in "a couple of days". Not necessarily a school day. 
Jubilee #4 pp.6-19  a school day, not necessarily the day after pp.1-5. The Pride disappeared "a few weeks ago", but that doesnt work. See below. 
Jubilee #4 pp.20-22  the next day, a school day and the night of the dance. 

Jubilee #5 pp.1-22  the same day as #4 pp.20-22. A school day, and the night of the dance. Christmas decorations up at the mall. Wolverine shows up in LA. 

Hopefully Jubilee #6 will help narrow down which days of the week #4-5 occur on, and maybe even how much time has elapsed between #3-4. 


The time references that dont work can, in all but one instance, be rationalized off. Its certainly been more than "a few weeks" since the Pride were defeated in Runaways #17, which occurred back before Avengers Disassembled (and the Jubilee series takes place after W3 #20-31, which isnt even finished being published yet)  so the reference to the Pride disappearing will very likely have to be disregarded. 

But others can be made to work. For example, when Jubilees aunt Hope says in #3 pp.14-17, a Tuesday night, that shes been "out of commission for two days" following her gunshot wound  backtracking would place the wound on the "Sunday" we saw on pp.1-3. But she actually suffered the wound in #2 pp.15-22, which was a school day preceding that Sunday  at least four days prior to the reference. So, I take her "out of commission" reference to mean that she was completely unconscious for two days following the wound, and when we saw her on Tuesday shed been bedridden but not technically "out of commission" for a few days after that. 

Another reference that can be made to work: when Jubilee says that Dale and Missy, who broke up in #2 pp.1-11, are back together "not 24 hours later" on pp.15-22  its unquestionably been at least two days since pp.1-11, and with the inserted weekend its been much longer. So we should probably assume that they got back together the day after pp.1-11, and Jubilee just didnt hear about it until pp.15-22. Neither Dale nor Missy appears on pp.12-14, so thats not a problem. 


Appearance lists for Jubilee #1-2: 

#1  Jubilee, Hope Lee (last name confirmed in #5), Brad (Aunt Hopes butler, named in #3), Meg Devereux (last name revealed in #2), Principal Carlton Avery, Judy Kingsley, Dale Spangler, Missy Lopez, Amber (Missys friend), Morry (a food court employee) 

#2  Jubilee, Judy Kingsley, Meg Devereux (last name revealed), Dale Spangler, Hope Lee, Brad, Cory (a student), Missy Lopez, BTS (Dale claims "we broke up" and "we got back together", so Missy is definitely being felt behind the scenes.) 

-------- 

Day-by-day synopses and appearances for #3-5: 

Jubilee #3 pp.1-3  a "Sunday" night in LA. Shane Shooter, head of a street gang, goes through the days "earnings". 

Appearances: Shane Shooter, Charlie, Slab II (one of Shanes thugs) 

(Note: According to Jubilee #4, "Shooter" is not Shanes last name. "Shane Shooter" is a nickname  the street equivalent of his "codename"  due to the fact that he shoots energy from his fingers. He should be listed in the MCP as "Shane Shooter" and not "Shooter, Shane".) 

Jubilee #3 pp.4-13. The next day, Dale tells Jubilee and Meg about a fundraising dance hes hosting, and says that he and Missy broke up again. Later that day, Jubilee counsels Charlie, who wishes he could stay out of the gang but feels he has no options. That night, she returns a phone call from Logan, but hes too busy to talk  hes fighting ninjas. 

Appearances: Charlie, Jubilee, Meg Devereux, Dale Spangler, Judy Kingsley, Brad (named here), Wolverine, Missy Lopez  BTS? (Dale says "we broke up again", which given his flirtatious behavior likely means that Missy dumped *him*  which would probably allow her a BTS here. However, in #4 she catches him flirting with another girl and he gets in trouble  so either they got back together *again* between #3-4, or he might be lying here about her dumping him. Its kind of tenuous for a BTS notation, honestly.) 

Jubilee #3 pp.14-17. After school the next day, Shane tries to intimidate Jubilee into stopping counseling Charlie. That night, Jubilee checks in on a convalescing Aunt Hope. 

Appearances: Jubilee, Shane Shooter, Brad, Hope Lee 

Jubilee #3 pp.18-22. The next morning, Shane confronts Jubilee again  who tells him about Charlies good grades and desire to go to college. At school, Dale reschedules the dance for the following week, and that night, Shane lets Charlie out of his gang  but not before revealing his mutant powers. 

Appearances: Jubilee, Shane Shooter, Meg Devereux, Dale Spangler, Slab II, Charlie 

-------- 

Jubilee #4 pp.1-5. Aunt Hope confirms that Jubilee can attend the dance in "a couple of days." 

Appearances: Jubilee, Hope Lee, Brad, Meg Devereux 

Jubilee #4 pp.6-19. At school, Missy catches Dale flirting with another girl. Jubilee learns that Miss Kingsleys car has been stolen, and asks Shane for help tracking it down. The two get into a gang shootout, and reveal their mutant powers to each other, but have no luck returning the car. Meanwhile, Aunt Hope and Brad wreak vengeance on a mysterious criminal organization  and later, Hope decides to look into the missing car. 

Appearances: Jubilee, Judy Kingsley, Dale Spangler, Missy Lopez, Sarah Ammerman (name revealed in #5), Charlie, Hope Lee, Brad, Shane Shooter, Dex, Pike (two LA thugs) 

Jubilee #4 pp.20-22. The next day, Jubilee arrives at school to see the car returned  and when she bursts into Miss Kingsleys office to tell her, she finds her kissing the principal. Meanwhile, Aunt Hope and Brad suit up for an all-out assault 

Appearances: Jubilee, Judy Kingsley, Carlton Avery, Hope Lee, Brad 

-------- 

Jubilee #5  recap page. The recap tells a story of Jubilee fighting aliens, falling in love and marrying an alien prisoner, and being returned to earth with her memory wiped. The blurb seems to be a joke, as thats clearly not what happened "previously"  but it might have actually happened, and if it did, the best place for it to have occurred is between issues #3-4, the largest time gap so far  it cant have occurred between #4-5, as the issues occur on the same day. (Paul, if youre going to take the recap page of C&D #8 seriously, you should probably take this one seriously too.) 

Appearances: Jubilee, Thorak (the alien prisoner) 

Jubilee #5 pp.1-22. Jubilee trades her silence about Principal Avery and Miss Kingsleys fling for her release from the peer counselor program. Shane asks her to the dance that night, and she accepts  but when the time comes, they both decide that the dance is lame, and go hang out on their own. At the dance, Dale  single again  asks Meg to dance. Meanwhile, Aunt Hope and Brad carve a bloody swath through a mysterious criminal organization. That night, Jubilee brings Shane back to Aunt Hopes mansion  and just as theyre about to kiss, the doorbell rings. Its Wolverine 

Appearances: Jubilee, Meg Devereux, Shane Shooter, Judy Kingsley, Carlton Avery, Hope Lee (last name confirmed here), Brad, Dale Spangler, Wolverine 

-------- 

MCP-style listings: 

(I have no idea what abbreviation were using for "Jubilee". I arbitrarily picked JUB.) 


*AMMERMAN, SARAH 
JUB 4 

*AVERY, CARLTON 
JUB 1 
JUB 4 
JUB 5 

*DEVEREUX, MEG 
JUB 1 
JUB 2 
JUB 3 
JUB 4 
JUB 5 

JUBILEE / JUBILATION LEE 
 
X 165 
M/TU3 2 
*JUB 1 
*JUB 2 
*JUB 3 
*JUB 5 (recap page) ? 
*JUB 4 
*JUB 5 (1-22) 

*KINGSLEY, JUDY 
JUB 1 
JUB 2 
JUB 3 
JUB 4 
JUB 5 

*LEE, HOPE 
JUB 1 
JUB 2 
JUB 3 
JUB 4 
JUB 5 

*LOPEZ, MISSY 
JUB 1 
JUB 2-BTS 
JUB 3-BTS ? 
JUB 4 

*PIKE 
JUB 4 

*SHANE SHOOTER / SHANE 
JUB 3 
JUB 4 
JUB 5 

*SLAB II 
JUB 3 

*SPANGLER, DALE 
JUB 1 
JUB 2 
JUB 3 
JUB 4 
JUB 5 

*THORAK ? 
JUB 5 

WOLVERINE / JAMES HOWLETT / "LOGAN" 
 
M/TU3 2 
M/TU3 5 
JUB 2 
JUB 5 

*(Logan likely makes appearances elsewhere between M/TU3 5 and JUB 2 as well as between JUB 2-5, but I dont know what they are yet.) 


The following characters are known by first name only, and probably wont make it into MCP. Of them all, the most significant character is Brad, but Charlie is a close second. 

*AMBER 
JUB 1 

*BRAD 
JUB 1 
JUB 2 
JUB 3 
JUB 4 
JUB 5 

*CHARLIE 
JUB 3 
JUB 4 

*CORY 
JUB 2 

*DEX 
JUB 4 

*MORRY 
JUB 1 


I'm working on tracking down a copy of Jubilee #6, and if successful I'll post an addendum to this Analysis. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Jun 2005 08:48 pm    
By Somebody

What the hell... [This is probably too long, but I can't be bothered cutting it down ] 

Jubilee #6 - recap page mentions how "After returning from her whirlwind romance on an alien world, Jubilee fell back into life as usual". Again, if you're deliberately obtuse enough to count the C/D8 recap, count that. Otherwise straight recap of last issue. 

pages 1-16: Picks up straight from the end of #5. Jubilee's embarrased, Wolverine acts "concerned parent" for another couple of pages as Jubes introduces Shane and Logan tells him to keep his hands to himself. Shane goes to leave, when Brad, bursts through the door. Jubilee demands an explaination, and he tells her Hope was an assassin who was retiring (hence bringing Jubilee into her life), and that she got tricked into a "one more job and then I'm out" trap "last week", and that they'd gone to tell her boss that she was out for good with their guns. He explains how they split up last issue, when Wolverine smells something wrong (literally) and they duck just before a hail of gunfire breaks the windows. Wolverine pops his claws and leaps at a horde of generic henchmen in suits & bulletproof vests. Jubilee comments that she is, quote "so out of practice at this" endquote. Hope then creashes through a wall on a motorbike, commenting that don't be too happy, she brought more goons with her. She starts to tell her she's sorry Jubilee had to find out this way, Jubilee cuts her off that Brad told her, she gets annoyed with Brad, he swears that he just told her. Hope tells Jubilee that Jubes' parents had disowned her (Hope) over her career choice, and that's why they never told Jubilee about her. More fighting with Wolverine outside, Jubilee calls "Help" to him, he leaps in after her and she says Brad's been shot, he's leaning limply against Jubilee. Hope asks Shane who he is, introduces himself. Hope flirts with Wolverine as they both fight goons, then she gets scratched by a bullet. Balding man with white hair in a monocle, blue suit, white shirt, red bowtie and black trenchcoat holding a smoking gun in one hand and a cane in the other offers her (in another language, presumably Chinese, that only Hope and Wolverine understand) the chance to stand down and come back - he'd gladly welcome her back, as she's "far too good a killer to just write off". If she refuses, he'll "have no choice but to allow [his] men to kill" her. Hope says if he's truly the one she's after, let them (all other four) go, she'll only negotiate after they're safely away. He agrees and Wolverine hoicks Brad over his shoulder and tells the other two they're out of there. Jubilee objects. Wolverine tells her to shut up and leave - trust him. Jubilee does reluctantly. As soon as they're gone, Hope says she was hoping he (balding man, still no name) would follow her. As Wolverine tells Jubilee & Shane to get Brad to a hospital, he'll double back & try to get Hope, the house blows up with a huge "KA-BOOM!" 

p17: "Later", cop cars and a fire truck are at the burnt out wreckage, and Jubilee starts crying on Wolverine's shoulder (Shane is beside them). 

p18: Later, no caption, they're at the hospital at Brad's beside, a policeman's saying they found no sign of Hope and that it's unlikely she sould have gotten out in time. Jubilee hugs Brad and starts crying, and Wolverine puts his hand on her shoulder. 

p19: "The next morning," Jubilee's leaving in a taxi, Shane declines her offer to go with her & Wolverine to Xavier's, but "keep in touch, you got my number". 

p20: "Later that morning", at the school, Jubilee's leaving the building having failed to find Meg to say goodbye, but as she goes out to the taxi Meg goes by in a red sports car with Dale driving. Jubilee "can't believe it. They-- good for you Meg." Wolverine reminds her of the plane they've got to catch, Jubilee's done, and Wolverine says "let's get you home." 

p21-22: Daytime (no other reference, presumably concurrently to or shortly after the prior scene), a jogger is going by some palm trees when he sees smoke behind some bushes, looks, and finds Aunt hope is the source of the smoke (coming from her left shoulder or thereabouts), with her right lower leg mostly blown off and sparks coming from the exposed mechanics... 


The midnight break could be any time prior to page 19. Unless you want to take the "Next Morning" as literally the next calendar day as opposed to after sunup, I'm inclined to put it during the unseen firefighting between 16 & 17. There are absolutely no references to days of the week, apart from that the last day (p17-22) appears to be a school day. The only other temporal references are that Hope was shot "last week", and whatever you want to make of Jubilee's "so out of practice" line. 

Appearances: Jubilee, Wolverine, Shane Shooter, Brad, Hope Lee, Dale Spangler, Meg Devereux.

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Posted: 29 Jun 2005 05:23 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks, Somebody! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Jul 2005 10:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, just got Jubilee #6, and everything Somebody says is right on. However, there's one temporal reference he missed -- a moon! And holy crap, it's not even a full moon. 

On p.10 panel 1, we see a crescent moon -- looking like the letter "C". I'm not sure if that's waxing or waning or whatnot, but there it is. 

The recap page here does back up the alien marriage story from #5's recap page, and refers to it as a "whirlwind romance" -- so presumably it could fit into a few days. I've stuck it into my revised calendar below. 

And, speaking of the calendar, Brad comments here about Hope being shot "last week". However, Hope was shot well over a week ago -- she was shot during Week 2, and this is Week 4. So, I'm assuming Brad's time reference here to mean that Hope was shot *late* in Week 2, and this is *early* in Week 4. Meaning, I have time passing like this: 

Week #1: 
Monday - MTU3 #1 and part of MTU3 #2 
Tuesday - the rest of MTU3 #2; JUB #1 pp.1-4 
Wednesday - JUB #1 pp.5-13 
Thursday - JUB #1 pp.14-23 
Friday - JUB #2 pp.1-11 

Week #2: 
Thursday - JUB #2 pp.12-14 
Friday - JUB #2 pp.15-22 (Hope is shot - pulled to the very end of the week.) 

Week #3: 
Sunday - JUB #3 pp.1-3 
Monday - JUB #3 pp.4-13 
Tuesday - JUB #3 pp.14-17 
Wednesday - JUB #3 pp.18-22 

[Thurs-Sat] - JUB #5 recap page; Jubilee's "whirlwind romance" in space 

Week #4: 
Sunday - JUB #4 pp.1-5 
Monday - JUB #4 pp.6-19 
Tuesday - JUB #5, JUB #6 pp.1-16 - "C"-shaped crescent moon (pushed back as early as possible in the week.) 
Wednesday - JUB #6 pp.17-22 

How's that work for your calendar, Paul? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 06:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
On p.10 panel 1, we see a crescent moon -- looking like the letter "C". I'm not sure if that's waxing or waning or whatnot, but there it is.  
<<<

That's a waning crescent moon. 


Jeph wrote: 
>>>
How's that work for your calendar, Paul?  
<<<

Just a couple of quick questions so far, Jeph: 

1) How do you know that page 1 of issue #2 occurs the day after page 23 of issue #1? It makes more sense to me for the beginning of issue #2 to take place on a Monday, the next school day after the end of issue #1, which could be a Friday. That way, the reference in the first segment of issue #2 to there being school "tomorrow" (Tuesday, in my theory) would work. This allowance would move everything previous in week #1 down a day (so M/TU3 1 would be on Tuesday rather than Monday). 

2) Is that whirlwind romance in space thing for real or one of those "humorous" recap pages full of nonsense?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 04:10 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
How do you know that page 1 of issue #2 occurs the day after page 23 of issue #1? 
<<<

Because on p.7 of #2, Jubilee tries to fool Dale into thinking she has all kinds of crazy powers -- and when he doesn't bite, she says "dang, that bit totally worked on Meg yesterday." That's a reference to #1 p.21, when she tells Meg she can fly and Meg falls for it. 

So unless she pulled the SAME trick on Meg over the weekend and Meg fell for it AGAIN, then #2 pp.1-11 is the day after #1 pp.14-23. 


Quote: 
>>>
Is that whirlwind romance in space thing for real or one of those "humorous" recap pages full of nonsense? 
<<<

If it was just one recap page, I might write it off as nonsense. But since it's recapped on the recap page of #6, I'm inclined to take it more seriously. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 04:13 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If it was just one recap page, I might write it off as nonsense. But since it's recapped on the recap page of #6, I'm inclined to take it more seriously. 
<<<

Two words: running gag.

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 04:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Like I said above: if Paul's taking the recap page of C&D #8 seriously, where Deadpool breaks the fourth wall and talks about the book's creators ... then he should probably take this one seriously too. It may be a running gag but it's FAR less blatantly-non-canon than the C&D page. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 07:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
if Paul's taking the recap page of C&D #8 seriously, where Deadpool breaks the fourth wall and talks about the book's creators ... then he should probably take this one seriously too.  
<<<

It sounds like apples and oranges to me. The recap page of C&D 8 is printed dialog between Wade and Irene, just like the printed dialog between Nathan and Irene in that title. Yes, Wade does break the fourth wall and talks about comic book plots and creators, but keep two things in mind -- he's a nutjob, and Irene thinks he's spouting nonsense (which he is). Now if Irene went along with Wade's ranting and herself talked about the plot within the context of comic book storytelling, or if she addressed the reader directly like poor ol' Monkey Joe in GLA, then I'd suspect the recap is non-canonical. 

The recap pages in JUB 5 and 6 sound more like pure writer's narration (not character dialog) and is reminiscent of other titles I've seen in which the creators get a bit silly talking about the characters or even about subplots that don't actually exist. 

Still, if the recaps in JUB 5 and 6 aren't totally outrageous and don't contradict anything in the actual story, it could be considered canonical. From the standpoint of the MCP, it wouldn't make a difference, since there is no actual appearance by any character in that space romance story. For the calendar, I could list it as a [BTS] event on a date between issues #3 and #4. Go for it?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Jul 2005 07:28 am    
By jephyork
Director

Sure, man. 

The thing about the C&D #8 recap page, though -- aside from Wade breaking the fourth wall ... Irene never interviewed him! In the story arc, the one and only person she interviewed was Cable. She wasn't getting background from other sources or fleshing out her article with other POVs ... her one and only goal with the article was "one-on-one interview with Cable". 

When would she have had time and opportunity to interview Deadpool? And WHY would she? 

Do you take the recap pages in WX2 -- all diary entries by the Director -- as canonical? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Jul 2005 09:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
She wasn't getting background from other sources or fleshing out her article with other POVs ... her one and only goal with the article was "one-on-one interview with Cable". When would she have had time and opportunity to interview Deadpool? And WHY would she? 
<<<

Do we know that Irene intended not to interview anyone else to provide greater context for the Cable interview? Did she state this explicitly? Perhaps the interaction was the result of an unintentional meeting and Irene couldn't pass up the opportunity to ask Wade questions? 


Quote: 
>>>
Do you take the recap pages in WX2 -- all diary entries by the Director -- as canonical?  
<<<

Any reason not to believe these are actual diary entries? If they are real, then yes, Colcord makes a canonical BTS appearance in writing them.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Jul 2005 11:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Given that mindset -- which I share, by the way -- you'd better regard the JUB #5 recap page as canonical too.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Jul 2005 06:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, it's going on the calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 37

Posted: 25 Jul 2005 01:13 am    Post subject: Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #4
By metaldragon

FF:WGCM 4 (of 12) 

Published: May, 2001 

Written by: Erik Larsen, Eric Stephenson, & Jeph Loeb in the style of Stan Lee 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 
Human Torch 
Thing 
Mr. Fantastic 
Professor X 
Angel 
Beast 
Iceman 
Marvel Girl 
Falcon 
3 bigots working for A.I.M., one named Lou 
a group of A.I.M. operatives 
Doctor Doom 
Dooms scientists and minions (3) 
Invisible Girl 
Agatha Harkness 
Franklin Richards 
Captain America 
A.I.M. Mechanoid 
MODOK 
Crystal 
Lockjaw 
Medusa 
Black Bolt 
Triton 
Gorgon 
Karnak 

Brief Synopsis: 

Mr. Fantastic, Human Torch, and Thing make their farewells to the X-Men at their Westchester institute, while in Harlem, the Falcon follows 3 bigots intent on starting a race riot in the black community by spraying anti-white slogans on buildings on the orders of someone they refer to only as the boss. The boss intends to buy up the buildings after the riot for some unknown purpose. As hes about to call in Captain America for back-up the Falcon is attacked by a group of A.I.M. operatives intent on eliminating witnesses on orders of the master. 

In his castle estate in the Adirondak mountains, Doctor Doom and 3 of his minions prepare his time machine. He plans to use it to locate the Cosmic Cube. 

At Whisper Hill, Invisible Girl tells Agatha Harkness about Lockjaw taking Crystal away. Suddenly, to her surprise, the stuffed bear she is holding disappears from her hands and reappears in Franklins grasp. She thinks she should inform Reed but dosent want to burden him while hes consumed with finding the identity of their attacker. 

Back at the Baxter Building, Reed says hes worried that Sue and Crystal arent back yet and sends Torch and Thing out to check on them. When they leave, he begins work on a gadget he believes will be the one thing that can save them all. 

Back in Harlem, the Falcons battle with the A.I.M. operatives continues but suddenly one of them summons a Mechanoid. Just when all hope seems lost Captain America joins the battle and attacks the Mechanoid. He reassures the Falcon that the Avengers have been monitoring the situation. Suddenly the A.I.M. operatives spot the Thing flying past on his pogo plane and shoot him down before he spots them. As soon has he picks himself up, the Thing joins the fight. Seeing how badly the fight goes, MODOK appears from the shadows and mind blasts the heroes. With the last of his strength, Thing manages to fire off his signal flare gun before MODOK mind blasts him unconscious. 

Crystal is greeted by the Inhuman royal family when she arrives in the royal chamber with Lockjaw. They inform her that something terrible has happend and they need every Inhuman to battle the coming darkness. 

The Human Torch spots the Things flare and arrives to find the A.I.M. operatives carrying off Captain America, Falcon, and the Thing and attacks. He distracts MODOK long enough for the others to recover and rejoin the fight. 

Meanwhile Doom has gone back months in time and over the Mediterranean he spots the location of the Cosmic Cube where he knows the Red Skull would eventually find it and use it against Captain America. He gloats in triumph as he plucks it from the sea floor. 

Suddenly, to the surprise of the Thing, Human Torch, Falcon, and Captain America, the battle is over. Mr. Fantastic arrived and used his particle stun blaster to knock out the A.I.M. operatives, however MODOK managed to escape. Falcon and Captain America go off to discuss a possible partnership while Mr. Fantastic, Thing, and Human Torch return to the Baxter Building. There Reed reveals hes been the victim of a series of mental inhibitors. He dosent know how they did it yet but hes certain hes figured out who! 


References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. 

The X-Mens appearance here continues on from FF:WGCM 3 which can only take place after Professor Xs recovery at the end of UXM 66 and before the events of X 94/2 that cause Iceman to leave the team in XM:HY 1. There is no other appropriate gap in XM:HY before XM:HY 7-9 (The Fantastic Four guest star between FF 101 & 102 and Marvel Girl changes her costume for her old uniform) where all the X-Men are together. 

Im not sure about Captain America, Falcon, A.I.M., MODOK, and the Inhumans appearances. I suppose theyd fit in any appropriate gap around the July/Aug, 1970 issues of whatever titles they appear in.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 04 Aug 2005 02:06 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 25 Jul 2005 06:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have Cap here between CA 133 and FF:WGCM 7-BTS. I have Falcon here between CA 133 and CA 134. I have the Inhumans here between FF 99 and FF:WGCM 5.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 38

Posted: 24 Jul 2005 09:00 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four:The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #3
By metaldragon

I know these havent been asked for specificly but I couldnt find this mini series listed in the Key or any of the chronologies of characters involved. I checked here in case anyone had done an analysis of it already but couldnt find any so I thought Id give it a shot! Sadly Im missing the first 2 issues but I have the rest, so here we go... 


FF:WGCM 3 (of 12) 

Published: April, 2001 

Written by: Erik Larsen, Eric Stephenson, & Tom DeFalco in the style of Stan Lee. 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 
Human Torch 
Thing 
Crystal 
Invisible Girl 
Mr. Fantastic 
Doctor Doom 
Dooms scientists and minions 
Professor X 
Angel 
Cyclops 
Marvel Girl 
Iceman 
Lorna Dane (anachronisticly called Polaris here) 
Havok 
Beast 
2 Sentinels 
Lockjaw 
Spider-Man 
Daredevil 
Dr. Strange 
Colosso (X-Mens training robot from UXM 22) 

Brief Synopsis: 

The Fantastic Four try to figure out who broke into the Baxter Building and stole an ancient Atlantean trumpet-horn. Mr. Fantastic arranges to borrow a weapon with which to flush their assailant out into the open, Crystal decides to go with Invisible Girl to Whisper Hill to spend time with Franklin, and Doctor Doom gloats over the horn he stole from them, then punishes a lackey for questioning the will of Doom. Doom braggs how he bugged the Baxter Building and has learned Richards next step. 

Mr. Fantastic, Thing, and Human Torch visit the X-Men. Professor X takes Mr. Fantastic to the basement with Beast and Marvel Girl while Thing and Torch go to try out the Danger Room with the rest of the X-Men. The weapon Mr. Fantastic came to borrow were 2 inactive Sentinels the X-Men were studying. Professor X tells him of a mysterious break-in his security monitors detected just after Reeds call. Beast tells him they then discovered some mysterious chips in the Sentinels which werent in their inventory files from when the robots were examined earlier. Cautiously they come to the decision that the only way to discover the function of the new chips is to activate the Sentinels anyway. 

Thing and Torch seem unimpressed with the Danger Room but when Angel says hes going to give them a big surprise, everyone is surprised when the 2 Sentinels come bursting up through the floor. 

While on their way to Whisper Hill in their new aero-car, Crystal is suddenly teleported away by Lockjaw, much to Invisible Girls surprise and dismay. 

Mr. Fantastic reveals he intended to reprogram the Sentinels to protect the Baxter Building but their mysterious adversary got to them first. Beast shouts that the Sentinels are heading towards New York. 

Spider-Man and Daredevil are patroling the streets when the giant robots pass overhead and decide to follow them. When the FF and X-Men catch up, they are all joined by Dr. Strange as the battle ensues. Spider-sense tingling, Spider-Man shouts that Sentinels are about to explode and Dr. Strange gets an unshattering shield of the Seraphim up just in time to save them, and a good chunk of New York, from destruction. 

Back at the mansion, Professor X and Marvel Girl are suddenly attacked by Colosso, their giant training robot. Combining their powers they manage to destroy it. Doom is disappointed that none of the heroes were destroyed but decides he has more pressing concerns. When his game is over, he exclaims, ...the final triumph shall belong to Doctor Doom! 

References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. 

The X-Mens appearance here can only take place after Professor Xs recovery at the end of UXM 66 and before the events of X 94/2 that cause Iceman to leave the team in XM:HY 1. There is no other appropriate gap in XM:HY before XM:HY 7-9 (the Fantastic Four guest appearance between FF 101 & 102 and Marvel Girl changes her costume for her old uniform) where all the X-Men are together. The Sentinels here look more like the Bolivar Trask ones from UXM 14-16 rather than the later Larry Trask MK II versions (UXM 57-59). Im sure, behind the scenes, Professor X could have telepathicly ordered someone in charge of clean-up to deliver 2 undamaged ones to the school after USM 16 so he could study them. 

I don't know where Spider-Man, Daredevil, and Dr. Stranges appearances would go but I suppose theyd fit in any appropriate spot sometime around the July/Aug, 1970 issues of their titles.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 04 Aug 2005 02:05 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 25 Jul 2005 06:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have Spidey here between ASM 92 and FF:WGCM 12-BTS. Actually, I have Spidey in ASM 513-FB (2p4) between panels 2 and 3 of page 16 of FF:WGCM 3. 

I have Daredevil here between DD 71 and DD 72. 

I have Strange here between WS 5 (Webspinners #5) and M/FEA 1/3.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Jul 2005 11:29 pm    
By metaldragon

That seems an odd placement for Spidey... ASM 92 guest stars Iceman. It came out Jan, 1971 (half a year after FF 101 [Aug, 1970]) which should place it after these events. There is a spot between XM:HY 1 & 2 this story could possibly fit but it would be a tight squeeze and dialogue both in ASM 92 and XM:HY 1 & 2 both make it seem unlikely. 

ASM 92: Iceman sees Spider-Man "kidnap" Gwen Stacy. He is out on a date with a dark haired, unnamed young woman. She says that someone should do something, so he hails a taxi and sends her home. "I hated to do that! --Specially [sic] after it took me weeks to finally get a date with her! But this is more important! I've been out of action with the X-Men long enough anyway!" He goes off to fight with Spider-Man. They eventually team up to save Robbie Robertson's life and expose Sam Bullit as a corrupt D.A. candidate. 

XM:HY 1: After the flashback sequence of the events of UXM 66, the caption informs us this story begins "3 days" after Professor X wakes up from his coma at the end of UXM 66. Iceman relates that the events of X 94/2 happened "yesterday". Now in this timeframe there is just enough time for the X-Men's involvement in the events of FF:WGCM 2, 3, 11 (& behind the scenes, 12) but not much else! Bobby returns a couple of pages later (afternoon of same day) to ask Lorna to join him and leave. Alex takes exception and they fight. Lorna gets hit by a chunk of ice and takes a stand for herself. "And don't you "baby" me, Bobby! I'm not your girlfriend! I never said I was, I never said I would be!" Bobby replies, "But, I thought... I mean... You and I... we... before he..." Up to that point, Iceman was under the impression they were still dating. Professor X interrupts telepathicly to say he is appalled by their behaviour and the other X-Men may be in danger... Bobby stalks away upset. 

XM:HY 2: We see Bobby crashed out on ex-girlfriend Zelda's couch. All groggy, he asks "How did I get here?" She replies "Beats me Bobby. But you seemed like you were in a bad place when you came knocking at 2:00 this morning!" He replies "Two o'clock? Oh, man! I remember now! I was so mad at the professor... I had to get out of there!" He awkwardly starts telling her about Lorna, she gets upset, Vera comes in wondering what all the shouting is about... then he "overhears" a telepathic message from Professor X to Lorna and Alex that the rest of the X-Men are in trouble and he leaves in a trance, much to Zelda and Vera's surprise. We learn a bit later that he headed off to the tip of South America to get to the Savage Land on his own. 

With that evidence, he obviously didn't have weeks to try and get a date with a girl (while thinking he and Lorna were still an item) and he hadn't been "out of action with the X-Men" for any time at all! This also seems to be the first time Iceman has a full on, face to face confrontation with Alex over Lorna. This leads me to believe ASM 92 happens sometime after XM:HY 22. You could argue that the time references could be "topical" (Iceman could be exagerating) and that ASM 92 might go in that gap (Iceman goes out with another girl to "get over" Lorna) but, Byrne dosen't make any references to Spider-Man or another girl in Iceman's dialogue in XM:HY 2 or even a footnote as to what he'd been up to after the fight with Alex and before turning up on Zelda's doorstep at 2:00 in the morning. (Unlike elsewhere in the XM:HY series where Byrne seems to have at least three footnotes per issue for references he makes in the dialogue about other stories from that period or people he has appear!) 

Further evidence: 

The Incredible Hulk #150 (Apr 1972): Lorna searches out Alex in New Mexico to ask him to return to the X-Men. In flashback it shows why he left. Once again he fights with Iceman over Lorna. Iceman: "Summers, I'm getting tired of looking for Lorna---and always finding you." Havok: "The lady's got a mind of her own, sonny. When it comes to whom she sees, it's still open---like your mouth!" Lorna: "Both of you---stop! Do you hear me?" Iceman blasts him with some ice and Havok's power goes out of control. He thought he killed Bobby and decided he couldn't do the hero thing anymore. End of flashback. Lorna tells him Bobby wasn't seriously injured after all and says Professor X was certain his powers can be controlled with the right incentive and more training. He dosen't believe it and says "Sorry, lady. No sale." Upset, Lorna tells him she came because she cared, not because the Professor asked her to and begins to leave. Suddenly the Hulk turns up and thinks Alex is hurting her. Battle ensues, Havok saves her life by carefully controlling his powers to defeat the Hulk without killing him or Lorna in the process. In the end he decides to leave with her and rejoin the X-Men. 

This fight is very different from the one seen in XM:HY 1. Alex does not leave after blasting Iceman and seeing him lying there "--still. Still as death." (Also, Lorna and Alex are both shown in costume in the Hulk flashback but were only wearing casual clothes in Hidden Years, a minor detail but still valid.) 

My theory: This flashback takes place after XM:HY 22 during a period of not much action before Iceman spends "weeks" trying to get a date with the unnamed, dark haired girl in ASM 92. The reason: Lorna is upset that Alex left and Bobby finally realises he really dosen't have a chance with her because, even though Alex is gone, she's still mooning over him. So he starts dating again. I'm assuming the tiff in XM:HY 1 was just Byrne doing a teaser to warm his readers up to the more serious fight shown in the Hulk 150 flashback and not a mistake retelling it! After all he did tease us about the Phoenix entity and Storm appearing! 

In conclusion: Spider-Man's appearance alongside Iceman in the FF:WGCM issues has to take place in a gap sometime (around 5 issues give or take) before their appearance together in ASM 92. That would place it sometime around issues 86-87 (July, 1970-Aug, 1970): the same months FF 100 & 101 came out. Does anyone know if there is an appropriate gap roughly around there?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 27 Jul 2005 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 02:51 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
but, Byrne dosen't make any references to Spider-Man or another girl in Iceman's dialogue in XM:HY 2 or even a footnote as to what he'd been up to after the fight with Alex and before turning up on Zelda's doorstep at 2:00 in the morning. (Unlike elsewhere in the XM:HY series where Byrne seems to have at least three footnotes per issue for references he makes in the dialogue about other stories from that period or people he has appear!) 
<<<

Disregard this part. Despite Byrne's tendencies, it still constitutes lack of evidence, which can't be presented in these parts as evidence. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 03:13 am    
By metaldragon

Ah, OK. No problem. I was just a noting that if he meant the ASM issue to go in that spot he would have probably referenced it in some way since he'd been so meticulous throughout the series otherwise. Since he didn't reference it there, where it might possibly fit, he might not have meant it to go in that spot but in the post XM:HY 22 era where I've suggested it should go instead. Again, it looks like another teaser, in this case, Iceman being independant of the team for brief periods. Sorry, I know you are looking for only factual evidence, that was a bit of me thinking out loud. I'll see if I can't edit better in Preview before I Submit... er... post! I mean post. lol! 

Wait a minute... did that make sense...? Must sleep...
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 06:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
That seems an odd placement for Spidey... ASM 92 guest stars Iceman. It came out Jan, 1971 (half a year after FF 101 [Aug, 1970]) which should place it after these events.  
<<<

Ah, but ASM 92 takes place before November elections (according to the Sam Bullit storyline therein) and FF 101 occurs in late November (according to the Official Marvel Index to the FF).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 06:35 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
In conclusion: Spider-Man's appearance alongside Iceman in the FF:WGCM issues has to take place in a gap sometime (around 5 issues give or take) before their appearance together in ASM 92. That would place it sometime around issues 86-87 (July, 1970-Aug, 1970): the same months FF 100 & 101 came out. Does anyone know if there is an appropriate gap roughly around there? 
<<<

It can't occur that early. Spider-Man appears in Avengers #82 after his appearances in ASM 90. The FF also appear in A 82 after FF 94, which means that trying to push FFWGCM 3 to the same area as ASM 86 would mean pushing all of FFWGCM prior to FF 95. However, the main storyline, as well as the editorial comments, clearly dictate that all of FFWGCM occurs between FF 100 and 101. 

So the earliest Spidey could possibly appear in FFWGCM would be slightly before ASM 91... which would then dredge up the reconcillation of the death of Captain Stacey story with Death and Destiny (which took more than a fair bit of wrangling in its own right IIRC). There's not much wiggle room there to be sure. 

Which is a somewhat long way of saying that I agree with Paul's placement.

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 11:55 am    
By metaldragon

Sadly, I'm not a Spider-Man reader and I haven't got the Marvel Index to the FF. No you're right, FF:WGCM 1-12 is etched in stone between FF 100 & 101. 

OK, that means there is either more than a 3 day period over which UX 66, X 94/2, XM:HY 1 issues happen and John Byrne's reference is "topical" to make ASM 92 fit, giving Iceman weeks of inaction to date a new girl while still thinking he's still an item with Lorna (like a total player). This seems uncharacteristic for Iceman. 

The alternative (and much better solution) is to place ASM 92 after FF:WGCM in the time between XM:HY 1 & 2 (to "get over" Lorna) making Iceman's dialogue an exageration, but before FF 101 which means Spider-Man's entry has to be tweeked. 

Still, in FF:WGCM 12 Reed uses the Cosmic Cube to resurrect all the dead heroes and wipe the memories of this story from everyone's mind except for the Watcher, Galactus, and himself. So if there is only a slightly awkward place just prior ASM 92 for Spider-Man, it's possible it could squeeze in there. 

Speaking of the mind wipe... I'm guessing Reed only wiped the part where the heroes join the battle against Doom in issue 11 & 12 and not the entire 12 parts of the story or the X-Men would be wondering what the heck happened to their Sentinels. Or it's possible Reed fixed them and the mansion as well when he restored everything with the Cube but they never appear "on screen" since.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 39

Posted: 21 Jul 2005 06:19 am    Post subject: Call for Analyses
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's a list of titles and story arcs that I'd still like to incorporate into the next update of the calendar, but as yet I have no information on them. A while back, some of you volunteered to provide analyses (noted in parentheses). Please let me know if you'd still like to do them or pass them along to someone else. And if anyone would like to volunteer for issues that are not spoken for, that'd be great. 

Thanks, as always, to everyone who provides analyses for this forum, and if I've listed something that's been covered, please let me know. 

Black Widow v3 
Bullseye: Greatest Hits #1-5 (John) 
Daredevil v2 #71-75 (Kevin) 
District X #7-12 (PopularLoser) 
Gambit v4 #1-9 (Jeph) 
Gambit v4 #10-12 (Col_Fury) -- DONE 
Incredible Hulk v3 #82 (Kevin) -- DONE 
Livewires #1-6 (Somebody) 
Nightcrawler v3 #1-6 (Jeph) 
NYX #5-6 
Power Pack v2 #1-4 
Punisher: Red Xmas (PopularLoser) 
Runaways v2 #1-6 
Shang-Chi: Master of Kung Fu #3-5 
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1-6 (Kevin) -- DONE 
Wolverine/Punisher #2-3 (Jeph) -- DONE 
X-Force: Shatterstar #1-4 (Jeph) 
X-23 #1-6 (Jeph)
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 12 Aug 2005 07:35 am; edited 15 times in total

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Posted: 21 Jul 2005 07:35 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Didn't we come to the general conclusion that Black Panther v4 occurs early T'Challa's career and, therefore, wouldn't even come close to your calendar anyway? 

Unless, of course, you're thinking of putting all 20-some years worth up!

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Posted: 21 Jul 2005 10:15 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Stormbreaker's coming soon, (to a theatre near you!)  

After that, I'll probably work on Daredevil, but that may be tricky until I see the first issue of the next arc...Bendis is up to his old tricks again. 

Arana #6 hasn't come out yet. And Daredevil: Father is actually supposed to start shipping again later this summer! But we'll see if the miniseries actually gets completed... 

Quote: 
>>>
Incredible Hulk v3 #77-81 (Kevin)  
<<<

The review for this one's already up and posting on this board.  Although Issue #82 is a stand alone story before the House of M issues, and so I probably need to get you a review up for that issue...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Jul 2005 02:37 pm    
By PopularLoser

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
District X #7-12 (PopularLoser) 
Punisher: Red Xmas (PopularLoser) 
<<<

I'm so far behind on these due to getting bogged down with school work. I can probably get them done when I finish school in three weeks or so. Unless of course you need them sooner, in which case I won't be able to do them. Sorry. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Daredevil: Redemption #1-6 (PopularLoser) 
<<<

The last issue of this hasn't shipped yet. As far as I can tell, its release keeps getting pushed back. Whenever it comes out will affect whether I can review this or not. Although if it's pushed back 3-4 more weeks I'll probably be able to do this. Time will tell.
_________________
[Insert Witty Remark Here]

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Posted: 21 Jul 2005 03:49 pm    
By Somebody

If John doesn't take it, I'll do Livewires if you want. I don't have any of the other unreviewed stuff there to review (wasn't Loki done already?).

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Posted: 21 Jul 2005 08:50 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean K. said: 
>>>
Didn't we come to the general conclusion that Black Panther v4 occurs early T'Challa's career and, therefore, wouldn't even come close to your calendar anyway? 
<<<

I thought that was true just for the first few issues. Is the entire 6-issue arc set in the past? 


Kevin W. said re Incredible Hulk v3 #77-81: 
>>>
The review for this one's already up and posting on this board. 
<<<

D'oh! Yup, those issues are on the calendar. 


Somebody said: 
>>>
wasn't Loki done already? 
<<<

Ditd'oh! 


Thanks for the status report on the delayed comics; I'm going by release dates in Marvel Previews. I'll update the CFA.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Jul 2005 01:29 am    
By John Simons

I will definitely bite the bullet and do Bullseye this weekend sometime. 

I don't think anyone has done Loki yet (I certainly haven't). Both Loki and Son of Asgard take place in the past, so I doubt they will affect your calendar, but I will try to get to them this weekend, as well. 

As for Livewires, I have to confess that all the technobabble caused my eyes to glaze over and I quit the book in exhaustion after 4 issues. So if anyone else wants to tackle that one, feel free...
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"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 22 Jul 2005 06:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

Wolverine/Punisher is almost done -- one more fact to check and it should be posted this weekend. 

I can tackle Gambit v4 #1-9 next. TPBs for Nightcrawler v3 #1-6 and X-Force: Shatterstar #1-4 will be arriving on my doorstep on the 29th.  

You'll have to wait a while for Gambit v4 #10-12, Power Pack v3 #1-4 and Runaways v2 #1-6. If you need them quicker, feel free to offer them to other people. 

X-23 #1-6 is set in the past (finishing prior to NYX #1), so I don't think there's any rush on that. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Jul 2005 07:02 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Sean K. said: 
>>>
Didn't we come to the general conclusion that Black Panther v4 occurs early T'Challa's career and, therefore, wouldn't even come close to your calendar anyway? 
<<<

I thought that was true just for the first few issues. Is the entire 6-issue arc set in the past? 
<<< 

Well, #6 isn't out yet, but it looks like it will be.

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Posted: 22 Jul 2005 02:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph said: 
>>>
X-23 #1-6 is set in the past (finishing prior to NYX #1), so I don't think there's any rush on that.  
<<<

If it's set during the past few years of Marvel time, then it's game for inclusion at this point. 

I'll make more edits to the CFA, based on recent comments.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Jul 2005 11:23 am    
By Antonio Gavio

I don't think there is a Guardians #6, the series had only five issues.

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Posted: 23 Jul 2005 08:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Antonio. I'll eliminate GUARDIANS #6, but I'll replace it with NYX #5-6. I have an analysis of issues #1-4 and I have issue #5 in hand, but apparently NYX 5-FB needs to be sequenced with page/panel ranges of NYX 3 and 4, and without issue #4 in hand, I'll need someone to do the sequencing of scenes for me. And issue #6 is a complete mystery.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Jul 2005 10:17 pm    
By Col_Fury

I can grab Gambit v4 #10-12, & if there's still an interest, I can also do Black Panther #1-6 once #6 comes out on Wednesday.

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Posted: 23 Jul 2005 11:01 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Did we ever declare the recent Starjammers miniseries canon or not? If it is canon, I believe we still need a chronology review for it...
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Jul 2005 02:34 am  
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Strange #1-6 (JLH) 


I wouldn't think this would be needed for the calender, since it all takes place in the past. 

Ya know, I was really hopeful, after such "origin retelling" minis as Earth's Mightiest Heroes, that this could somehow fit. But you can't even get into the first issue without hitting huge bumps that start tossing old stories out the window. Everything from Wong's history, to the make-up of the Strange family (his sister Donna and brother Victor are gone, replaced by ciphers Rachel & Drake) and how Steven's parents died (they were both gone before he became a sorcerer, yet in this mini, they they're alive and fine), is just so drastically different, none of it can work even if "manipulation through time" is factored in. Course, then JMS uses that whole "history alteration" thing AGAIN, and makes it so Stephen was never born to begin with, thus undoing anything the series was about to begin with, really. But the things which aren't erased, such as his meeting Clea far too soon, and so forth (Both Wong and Clea suffer from drastically different hair colors for no reason whatsoever. Who the hell would "alter history" so that Wong has long dark hair instead of blonde turned bald?) 

And it also seems that "Strange" is another failed movie proposal, just like "Man Without Fear" was. I don't see why an analysis for it should be done, so if someone else feels like doing it instead, please, by all means. Most I can offer is that it should be added to the non-canon list. I've seen Ultimate versions of characters who better fit with regular-MU versions of history than this story does.

Last edited by JLH on 25 Jul 2005 02:04 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 24 Jul 2005 05:55 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Did we ever declare the recent Starjammers miniseries canon or not? If it is canon, I believe we still need a chronology review for it... 
<<<

STARJAMMERS is referenced in Hepzibah's entry in the OFFICIAL HANDBOOK, so it's definitely canon.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 08:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I added today's Giant-Size Spider-Woman to the list. I noticed that the first story in that comic is a new story that occurs "six months" before the formation of the New Avengers. I didn't purchase the issue, so would anyone care to do an analysis of that story?
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Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 06:39 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I just added Punisher v7 #13-18 to the call list. Unless I'm spacing it out, I don't believe we've had a review of those issues yet.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 12:11 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

LOL...you're just 'spacing it out' Paul.  

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1470
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 02:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup. Definite space-out. Actually, I copied the post into a file and put it in the wrong directory.  

As Emily Latella would say..."nevermind..."
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Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 09:24 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Giant-Size Spider-Woman #1 removed from the list. Thanks again for the analysis, Paul.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 11:23 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Going by the comments made in a thread over in the Marvel Universe forum, it appears that the recent Warlock miniseries IS canon...did you happen to collect that Paul, or do we need an Analysis for it? 

Someday soon, I WILL work out a better tracking system for keeping track of new comic's canon status... 
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 31 Jul 2005 04:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I did manage to pick up the first two issues in a bargain bin but put them aside, figuring them to be non-canonical, but yes, I could use an analysis of the whole series. Anyone interested?
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Paul B.

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Thread 40

Posted: 25 Jul 2005 02:20 pm    Post subject: Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1-6
By Kevin W.
Director

Chronology Review for Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1-6 
Written by Michael Avon Oeming & Dan Berman 
Drawn by Andrea Divito 

This miniseries picks up immediately after the events of Thor vol. 2, #85, the end of the Ragnarok storyline. At the end of that, Thor sends Beta Ray Bill away, to be the only survivor of the final battle of Ragnarok. This storyline involves Galactus, and there is some question as to how this falls in line with Galactus's appearance in recent issues of Fantastic Four. Galactus has a new herald in this arc, whom I've never seen before, and I don't believe we'll ever see again. I'm curious, didn't Galactus get a new Herald in the shortlived Thanos series? I didn't buy that title...Is this Herald here, (called "Stardust") the same from the Thanos series? The series jumps around in time, showing us flashbacks to the Korbinites, (Beta Ray Bill's race)...Part of the problem is that it's hard to tell how many days this storyline takes...as it takes place in the depths of outer space, on alien worlds, their days maybe longer or shorter than a day on Earth. I'll try to make sense of this as best I can. 


Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 
Written by Michael Avon Oeming & Dan Berman 
Drawn by Andrea Divito 

Appearances: Beta Ray Bill, Sif, Volstagg, Thor, Galactus, New characters: Alpha Ray, Stardust, Head Priest Rogotta, Flashback appearances: Thor, Surtur, Sif 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-3: The Korbonites are holding an emergency session between the Priests and the Military, (the ruling parties in their government, apparently). They have discovered that the Fallen God Ashta is coming to attack their world, and they are making preperations to defend their planet. The Priests want to revive Alpha Ray, (a robot construct) the first "saviour for their people" whom they created before they created Beta Ray Bill. A Head Priest by the name of Rogotta accuses Beta Ray of no longer being the chosen one among their gods, saying that Bill prefers living with his new "Gods", (the Asgardians). The military is hesitant to release Alpha Ray, because his mind was unstable...The session comes to an end as Ashta arrives close enough in their solar system for the Korbinites to launch an attack... 

Pgs. 4-6: This is a replay of the final battle of Ragnarok as seen in Thor #85. Beta Ray Bill is fighting alongside the Asgardians. We see Volstagg killed, and then we see Sif slain. Thor then teleports Beta Ray Bill out of there and tells Bill he wants Bill to live, and for him to remember them and tell others of the Asgardian's great deeds. Bill reluctantly agrees and flies off through space to go back to his people. 

Pg. 7-23: On the Korbinite flagship, the military has started to engage Ashta, but they are loosing the battle. The Priests convince the military to release Alpha Ray. Just then, Beta Ray Bill arrives back in his home solar system, to see the Korbinite fleet in ruins, and a giant tentacle creature destroying everything. Bill recognizes it from Korbinite legend as the Fallen God of Myth Ashta, but something clicks in his head, and he quickly realizes this is Galactus, (whom he knows Thor and the other heroes of Earth have fought several times). As the issue continues, Ashta slowly morphs into the traditional appearance of Galactus. Beta Ray is about to start fighting Galactus, when Alpha Ray comes along and attacks Beta Ray! Alpha Ray is apparently still mentally unstable, and thinks Beta Ray is the real threat. A blast of energy from Galactus knocks the two of them away, and Galactus starts to feed on the Korbonites home world. Beta Ray Bill comes back and tries to attack Galactus again, but Galactus has his new Herald "Stardust" attack Bill. While the two duel, Galactus swats Bill like a fly, and turns his attention back to the planet, which he promptly devours. The few remaining Korbinite space ships try to flee, but Galactus blows many of them out of the sky... 

Bill's homeworld and solar system lie in ruin... 

References: 

Pg. 1: The Korbinites state that this is their new homeworld, and that they had to flee their old home world, which was "crushed by the dogs of hell", and now they realise they're going to have to fight Ashta to save their new home world. I suspect the history they speak of is covered in the history of Beta Ray Bill, as seen back when he first came on the scene years ago, but as I'm unfamiliar with Beta Ray Bill's history, I figured I'd make note of it. 

Pg. 14: I don't know if these are true flashbacks or not, but I'll make note of them: Bill starts to become enraged at the slaughter of his people, and he for a brief second thinks back to the final days of Asgard. 

Panel #5, (of 8): We see Thor and Sif, (who has one arm, as she did in her appearance in those final issues of Thor), they're standing next to each other, Thor with his arm around her for support. 

Panel #6, (of 8): A brief flash of the final battle, with Surtur standing over the battlefield. 

Panel #7, (of 8): A panel shot of the fallen Sif, lying motionless on the battlefield. 

Are those sort of panels really any different then when Peter Parker thinks back to Uncle Ben for the briefest of moments? 

Pg. 16: As Beta Ray narrates, he thinks, "Thor and the humans call it Galactus, but I understand it appears uniquely to those it attacks-it has taken the form of the Fallen God Ashta!". Makes sense...Galactus is a being of pure energy, who manifests in a way that our puny mortal minds can comprehend. 

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #2 
"The Crumbs of Galactus" 
Written by Michael Avon Oeming & Dan Berman 
Drawn by Andrea Divito 

Appearances: Beta Ray Bill, Alpha Ray, Galactus, Stardust, Skuttlebutt, In Flashback: Head Priest Rogotta, Galactus, New characters: Ven, Sala 

Synopsis: Pgs 1-13, (panel 1 of 7): Picks up immediately where we left off last issue. Bill, (having been knocked unconsious at the end of last issue) awakens to find his solar system in ruins. He recieves a signal from a Korbinite ship off in space and races out to find it. The signal is coming from Skuttlebutt, a sentient spaceship of the Korbinites, and a friend of Bill's. Bill hops on board Skuttlebutt, and the ship reveals that the Korbinites had a contingency plan: in case the fleet was defeated, the Korbinites gathered up all of the lifeforces of the Korbinite people, and put them in an object called "the Meta-Orb". This device was then blasted off into space, and Skuttlebutt is flying along behind it, keeping guard over it as it journey's through space, hopefully to find a new planet for their people to live on. 

Meanwhile, Galactus is busy eating the last remnants of the Korbinite's homeworld, while Stardust zips around, killing off any remaining Korbinites in the wreckage of the fleet. Stardust stumbles across Alpha Ray's unconsious body, and drags it back to Galactus. He asks Galactus if he can kill Alpha Ray in honor of Galactus, but the planet eater says to spare Alpha Ray, as the creature actually fought against Bill, (who was fighting against Galactus). Stardust is shocked to see that Galactus's body suffered a minor crack, due to the attack Bill launched at Galactus. Stardust flies off to hunt down Beta Ray Bill, to deliver vengeance... 

The next few pages are a series of flashbacks. The scenes could possibly be spread over several days, (or weeks) so I'll break them up according to scenes. 

Pg. 13, (panels 2 of 7) to pg. 14: Narrative caption reads, "Several Months Ago". A young Korbinite scientist named Ven is doing work on a telescope, when he spots and image of what appears to be Ashta in distance space, heading towards their planet. He is afraid to tell anyone at first, thinking they'll believe him insane. He goes home and tells his girlfriend, (Sala) and she convinces him to tell the Head Scientists. 

Pg. 15: Flashback: Ven goes and tells his findings to his superiors. They are dismissive at first, but agree to look over Ven's work... 

Pg. 16: Flashback: Ven's superiors have taken their findings to the Head Scientists, and they are holding a council meeting, going over Ven's work. The military barges in and says that if it IS Ashta approaching, they're taking over, as it's a military threat now. 

Pg. 17: Flashback: The military has launched probes towards Ashta, but all probes end up destroyed as they draw near. The military is pondering what to do next, when into their chambers burst the priests, who demand the truth about whether Ashta is coming. The priests decide it's time to start making plans for evacuation... 

Pg. 18-19: Flashback: The Priests, (working with scientists of faith) have created the Meta-Orb, to hold the life forces of the Korbinites. They have begun a mass evacuation, putting 80% of all of the life forces on the planet in the Meta-Orb. Ven and Sala are waiting in line to be put in the Meta-Orb, when the military comes along and seperates them, putting Ven in a special line. Sala is put in the Meta-Orb, while Ven is told he has been put in a line of strong, healthy males, because they are being drafted into the military, to serve in the battle against Ashta. 

Pg. 20-22: Cutting back to the present day, (to what is probably a short time later after Pages. 1-13): Bill is sitting around overwhelmed by all of the tragedy that has happened to his people and to the Asgardians. But he can't mourn for too long, as Skuttlebutt's censors pick up the Meta-Orb is in trouble! Stardust has arrived, and is holding the Meta-Orb hostage. Bill flies out and the two prepare to do battle... 

References: There are a few references throughout the issue to the Korbinites having to flee thier first homeworld, (which was being attacked by 'demons') and Beta Ray Bill and Skuttlebutt leading the Korbinite people to a new homeworld, (the world Galactus just ate). None of this is shown in flashback, but I figured I'd note it. I believe this has all been shown back in issues of Thor when Beta Ray Bill first came on the scene. 

Is Skuttlebutt a new character? From the way Bill and the ship talk, they've known each other a long time, and I figured with a wierd name like Skuttlebutt, this ship was created by the writers back in the 80's, when Beta Ray Bill first came onto the scene, (really, what type of name is Beta Ray Bill as well?!?) 

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3: 
Written by Michael Avon Oeming & Dan Berman 
Drawn by Andrea Divito 

Appearances: Beta Ray Bill, Skuttlebutt, Stardust, New Character: Asteroth, In Flashback: Ven, Galactus 

Synopsis: Continues right from where where we left off last issue. This issue is mostly one big long fight scene. 

Pgs. 1-10: Bill rescues the Meta-Orb from the hands of Stardust, and sends it and Skuttlebutt off deeper into space, while he stays behind to face Stardust. They duel for most of the issue, both of them fairly equal in strength, but Bill always gaining the upperhand... 

Pg. 11: Flashback: Narrative Caption reads: "Several Months Ago..." This picks up right where we left off at the end of the flashback sequences last issue. Ven is in the line with other fellow drafted Korbinites, waiting to be issued his military uniform. Two other Korbinites, (who's names aren't given) strike up a conversation with Ven, wondering what all the fuss is about. Ven explains it's Ashta, coming to destroy their world... 

Pg. 12: Flashback: Ven and the other two Korbinites are in their quarters, discussing their loved ones they've left behind in the Meta-Orb. Military officers burst in and tells them to suit up, they're going into battle. Ven says, "Shipping out? We've only begun our training." But the military says Ashta is faster than anticipated. 

Pgs. 13-14: Flashback: Ven and the other two soldiers are on a space ship which is part of the fleet attacking Ashta/Galactus. One of them begins praying for Beta Ray Bill to come back and save all of them. Ashta is shown starting to destroy the fleet, (this now brings us up to Issue #1, probably just prior, or at the exact same time as page 7 of Issue #1, which shows us the military loosing, and the priests and generals deciding to release Alpha Ray). 

Pgs. 15-24: Now we cut back to the present day. Stardust reforms himself, (after Beta Ray Bill practically blew him to pieces). Stardust realizes he can't beat Beta Ray fair and square, so using some sort of mystical spell, he unlocks a doorway to some sort of Cosmic Hell, which starts to suck Beta Ray into it. Bill barely keeps himself from being sucked inside. A black tentacle reaches out from the Hell and wraps around Bill, but he breaks the tentacle off. Stardust starts to panic, and closes the door, but he's not fast enough...the black tentacle mutates, transforming into a female devil-ish creature who calls herself Asteroth... 

References: Just like with the flashbacks last issue, the flashback scenes here could be spread over several days. It doesn't say, but I figured I'd note each scene, in case you wanted to spread the events out... 

Pg. 21: Stardust notes, "This is a doorway into a Cosmic Hell...a Celestial Domain where Cosmic Demons, beings of hate and destruction, are exiled! You will be trapped there for eternity, with powerful beings hungry to destroy the universe!" 

I just figured I'd note that...I don't think we've ever heard of this place before, and I don't believe we've ever seen this demon "Asteroth" before now... 

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #4: 
"Asteroth" 
Written by Michael Avon Oeming & Dan Berman 
Drawn by Andrea Divito 

Appearances: Beta Ray Bill, Stardust, Galactus, Alpha Ray, Asteroth, In Flashback: Ven, Beta Ray Bill, Alpha Ray, Galactus 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1 and 2: Flashback: Narrative Caption reads, "Days Ago..." On board one of the spaceships in the fleet, Ven and his two companions are watching the battle unfold over the monitor screen. The fleet is loosing, but then they see on the monitor Beta Ray Bill's return, and see him starting to attack Ashta! But then, they see Alpha Ray attack Bill, and the screen goes blank as an energy blast from Ashta/Galactus destroys part of their ship. A crack opens up in the ship and some of Ven's friends are sucked out into the vacuum of space... 

Pgs. 3-22: Now we jump back to the present day. Bill and Stardust have been temporarily knocked unconsious by emergence of the creature calling herself Asteroth. She declares that she's a being of pure chaos, and intends on devouring this entire universe of order, and flies off. She arrives at a nearby planet and starts to incinerate it, feeding on the destruction. Stardust and Bill wake up, and Stardust convinces Bill they need to put aside their fighting, and destroy Asteroth. Stardust explains he had meant for Bill to get trapped in that Cosmic Hell, not for Asteroth to escape from that place. Bill asks what's the difference between Galactus and Asteroth, and Stardust explains Galactus is a natural part of the order of the universe, while Asteroth is an abomination that will destroy the entire multiverse if left unchecked. The two fly off together and attack Asteroth, but she's already too powerful. Stardust casts another dimensional spell, this time opening up a blackhole, hoping to suck Asteroth in, but she turns it around on them, and Stardust and Bill start to get sucked in... 

Meanwhile, Galactus, (back on what I guess is the remains of the Korbinite's world) picks up the non-moving Alpha Ray and fills the robot with the Power Cosmic, saying he needs Alpha Ray to perform one final task... 

References: Pages 1 and 2 appear to be occuring at the exact same time as events of Issue #1, pages 7-23. 

The Narrative caption on page 1 puts the battle shown in Issue #1 as having happened "Days Ago"...although the events set in the present day seem to occur over just a few hours, (that's the trouble with events set in deep space...you have no idea how much time is passing). However, if we are to put a gap in here somewhere, for the "Days Ago" reference to work, I'm inclined to put the gap inbetween the pages of Issue #2, inbetween the present day scene that ends on page 13, panel #1, and when we cut back to the present on page 20. On page 20, Beta Ray Bill is moping around in mourning, and Skuttlebutt has just finished explaining everything that has happened since Bill has been gone. Perhaps a few days have passed while Bill has been in mourning... 

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #5: 
"Omega: The End" 
Written by Michael Avon Oeming & Dan Berman 
Drawn by Andrea Divito 

Appearances: Beta Ray Bill, Asteroth, Stardust, Skuttlebutt, Alpha Ray, Surtur, (or rather, Surtur's corpse), New Character: Omega Ray. In Flashback: Ven, Stardust 

Synopsis: 

Pg. 1, Panels 1-5, (out of 6): Flashback: Narrative Caption reads, "Days Earlier..." This scene picks up right where the flashback ended last issue. Ven makes his way through the damaged spaceship, finally meeting up with other soldiers in an armory room. The lights suddenly go out as the damaged ship looses power. They are left alone in the dark.. 

Pg. 1, (panel 6 of 6)-Pg. 2: Flashback: Narrative Caption reads, "Hours later..." The soldiers don't hear the sound of fighting outside anymore, and think the battle is over. Just then, into the spaceship bursts Stardust, who starts slaughtering the Korbinites. Ven is knocked by Stardust out the hull and into deep space. His helmet cracked, slowly loosing oxygen, Ven wishes that he'll get to see his girlfriend Sala in the next life... 

Pgs. 3-9: Now we jump back to the present. Stardust and Bill are being sucked into the blackhole. They continue to try and fight, to try and drag in Asteroth as well, but she seems immune to the pull of the blackhole. Asteroth (touching and draining energy from Bill and Stardust) stumbles upon the Meta-Orb, which is tucked inside Bill's belt, (we learn Bill sent a hologram decoy of the Meta-Orb off ahead with Skuttlebutt, so he could keep the Meta-Orb on hand to protect it himself). All seems lost, when Alpha Ray arrives, slamming into Asteroth and dragging her into the blackhole. Asteroth, Stardust, and Alpha Ray are sucked in, but Alpha Ray's slamming into all 3 of them knocked Bill backwards out of the event horizon, and the black hole closes before it can suck Bill in. Bill fades into unconsiousness... 

Pgs. 10-12: Bill wakes up in a strange white place beyond time and space. A strange voice, (coming from all around Bill) explains Bill is in another dimension outside of time and space, a dimension ruled by Cosmic Beings who locked away Asteroth and others in that Cosmic Hell. They've transported Bill to their dimension to thank him for stopping Asteroth. Bill basically says, "Uh...You're Welcome" and turns around to see Skuttlebutt is in this place to. The Cosmic Beings tell Bill they will transport him wherever he wishes to go, and he decides he wants to go back to Asgard, to check to see if the Asgardians won the final battle of Ragnarok. So Bill gets onboard Skuttlebutt, and they leave this dimension behind... 

Pgs. 13-23: Appearing back in what appears to be normal "outer space" They find they're directly on course towards Asgard, (why the Cosmic Gods didn't fully transport them all the way to Asgard, I don't know...). As they are flying towards Asgard, Bill pauses to mourn the Korbinites some more...but eventually, Skuttlebutt's alarms go off, and the ship reports that there is strange energy emitting from the Meta-Orb. This energy starts growing out of control, and Bill grabs the Meta-Orb and busts out of the ship, (before the Orb can explode, destroying Skuttlebutt). The Meta-Orb emits an explosion of energy, and Bill and the Meta-Orb fall to the ground below, which turns out to be Asgard. 

Bill looks around him to find Asgard is in ruins. Everything around him is dead or reduced to rubble. Bill stumbles upon Surtur's corpse. Bill walks back over to the Meta-Orb, and is shocked as it cracks open, and out pops what appears to be a demonic version of Beta-Ray Bill. This creature reveals itself to be a mixture of Asteroth and the Korbinites, and calls itself Omega Ray. Before Asteroth was sucked into the blackhole, she put a small portion of her essense in the Meta-Orb. She's been feasting upon the souls in the Meta-Orb since then, and now has broken out in this new body. Bill is enraged, and immediately starts hammering away, calling upon all of the remaining power of Odin left in Asgard to strike down this foe... 

References: Pg. 1, (panels 1-5 of 6) appears to be happening at the same time as pages 7-23 of Issue #1. Pg. 1, (panel 6 of 6) and Pg. 2 appear to be happening at the same time as Issue #2, pgs. 1-13, (panel 1 of 7). 

I listed Pgs. 10-12 seperately because they take place supposedly in "between time and space", and they note "there is no time here". If needed, this might make for a great place to put a break in time. Maybe days, weeks, or even months pass while Bill is in this dimension. Or maybe no time has passed at all. 

I'll note that among the ruins of Asgard, I see what appears to be the Cask of Ancient Winters just lying around amidst the rubble...probably waiting for some supervillian to come and find it. 

You know, with the apparent death of Ven in the flashbacks, (there really was no point to those flashbacks, was there?) along with most of the souls inside the Meta-Orb dying at the hands of Asteroth/Omega Ray, it just seems to me the writers are overdoing just how bleak the Korbinite's plight is... 

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #6: 
"The Death and Life of Beta Ray Bill" 
Written by Michael Avon Oeming & Dan Berman 
Drawn by Andrea Divito 

Appearances: Beta Ray Bill, Spiderman, New Character: The Boar, In Flashback: Beta Ray Bill, Omega Ray 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-16, (panel 1 of...ugh, this is hard to explain. Pgs. 16 and 17 are a merged page, with panels overlapping onto both pages. Panel 1 is on pg. 16, panel 2 spills over onto both pages. Then, Panel 3 is on page 16. Panel 4 starts on page 16, but spills over to page 17. Finally, Panel 5 and Panel 6 fall on Page 17). 

The story cuts to Earth, a street corner for homeless bums. One of the homeless bums on this street, (a person by the name of Simon Walters) has passed away, and lies dead in the gutter. Then, there is a burst of lightning, and rain starts falling, and Simon Walters comes to life. He gets up and walks out onto the street, nearly getting hit by a speeding car. The car swerves and crashes, and out of it jumps a hoodlum, who says he's fleeing Spiderman. This hoodlum transforms himself into a supervillian calling himself "The Boar", (yes, he looks like a giant pig...I don't believe we've seen this supervillian before now), and he starts smashing up the street. 

Just a few blocks away, we cut to see Spiderman pulling a bus back up onto a bridge, (it was about to fall off). Spiderman says, "Now to catch up with the Boar!" and zips off. Meanwhile, the Boar is beating up Simon Walters pretty badly, when Simon hits his hand on the ground. Yes, that's right, he magically transforms into Beta Ray Bill, and starts pounding on the Boar. Spiderman arrives, and the two team up and defeat the Boar. They then go out for pizza. 

Cut to a short time later. Spiderman is sitting on a ledge next to Simon Walters, and Simon/Bill is telling Spiderman all about the plight of the Korbinites, and he thinks back to the last thing he remembers... 

Pgs. 16/17, (panel 2 to panel 6, of 6)-Pg. 20: Flashback: As Bill narrates, he thinks back to his final battle amidst the ruins of Asgard. Omega Ray may have been more powerful, but Bill calls upon all of his remaining strength, and all of the power of Asgard, and barely destroys Omega Ray. But all of the energy Bill unleashed leaves Bill dying as well...he looks over and notices the Meta-Orb still pulses with life, and he realises that not all of the souls inside were devoured by Omega Ray. He crawls over, trying to release the souls inside, but fades unconsious. He wakes up to what appears to be a glowing white figure standing overhead, (I believe this to be the Odin Force, but it's not clear). This spectral figure says she will take good care of the remaining souls inside the Meta-Orb, and touches Bill, who breathes his last breath...only to wake up in this new body. 

Pgs. 21-22: We cut back to the present. Spiderman tells Bill he's gotten a new lease on life, and Bill says he plans on making the most of it. The two heroes depart, going their seperate ways. The End. 

References: The story seems to suggest this is the first time Spiderman and Beta Ray Bill have ever met. I don't know if they have met before now, but I figured I'd note that. 

I don't know how much time passed inbetween Bill being on Asgard and him waking up on Earth, (though I suppose it was instantaneous). This story is pretty fluid, I think, in allowing us to put it wherever it fits best on a timeline. 

Also, as I recall, there was some discussion a while back about whether Galactus appears here before or after the "Rising Storm" storyline in Fantastic Four. Galactus has a new Herald here, Stardust, whom we'll probably never see again. I for one feel this should go before "Rising Storm". Maybe Galactus being without a herald, (again) came to Earth, where he winds up picking Johnny as his new Herald... 

That's it for now. Next, I'll do a review for that single issue of Hulk...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 26 Jul 2005 09:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for this analysis, Kevin. I'm trying to reorganize it so that entries appear in chronological order, and it seems that we need to chop things up a bit more to get things in sequence. Here's what I've derived from your work, with "x"s denoting page/panel designations I don't know. Can you fill in the details and let me know if I've messed up anything? 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2  FB (13p2-16) 
One day, several months before SSBRB 2. A young Korbinite scientist named Ven spots an image of what appears to be Ashta in distant space heading towards his planet. He is afraid to tell anyone at first, thinking theyll believe him insane. He goes home and tells his girlfriend Sala and she convinces him to tell the head scientists. Ven goes reports his findings to his superiors, who agree to look over his work. They take their findings to the head scientists, who hold a council meeting about Vens work. The military barges in and says that if it is Ashta approaching, theyre taking over, as its a military threat now. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2  FB (17) 
Perhaps the day after SSBRB 2-FB (13-16). The militarys probes of Ashta end up destroyed as they draw near. As the military ponders what to do next, the priests burst into their chambers and demand the truth about whether Ashta is coming. The priests decide its time to start making plans for evacuation. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2  FB (18-19) 
One day. The priests, working with scientists of faith, create the Meta-Orb to hold the life forces of the Korbinites. They have begun a mass evacuation, putting 80% of all of the life forces on the planet in the Meta-Orb. As Ven and Sala wait in line to be put in the Meta-Orb, when the military separates them. Sala is put in the Meta-Orb while Ven is told he has been put in a line of strong, healthy males to be drafted into the military to serve in the battle against Ashta. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #3  FB (x-11) 
The same day as SSBRB 2-FB (18-19). It is several months before SSBRB 3. While waiting in line for uniforms, two drafted Korbinites strike up a conversation with Ven, wondering what all the fuss is about. Ven explains its Ashta coming to destroy their world. 


If they show new material, can we weave these next four scenes chronologically into scenes from T2 85? 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p5) 
We see Thor and Sif, (who has one arm, as she did in her appearance in those final issues of Thor), they're standing next to each other, Thor with his arm around her for support. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p6) 
A brief flash of the final battle, with Surtur standing over the battlefield. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p7) 
A panel shot of the fallen Sif, lying motionless on the battlefield. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (4-6) 
Beta Ray Bill is fighting alongside the Asgardians. We see Volstagg killed, and then we see Sif slain. Thor then teleports Beta Ray Bill out of there and tells Bill he wants Bill to live, and for him to remember them and tell others of the Asgardians great deeds. Bill reluctantly agrees and flies off through space to go back to his people. 


STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #3  FB (12) 
One day. As Ven and his fellow draftees discuss the loved ones theyve left behind in the Meta-Orb, military officers burst into their quarters and tell them to suit up to go into battle. Ven says, Shipping out? We've only begun our training, but the military says Ashta is faster than anticipated. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (1-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 3-FB (12). The Korbonites hold an emergency session between the priests and the military. They have discovered that the fallen god Ashta is coming to attack their world, and they make preparations to defend their planet. The priests want to revive Alpha Ray, the robot construct that preceded Beta Ray Bill, but the military is hesitant to release Alpha Ray, because his mind was unstable. The session comes to an end as Ashta arrives close enough in their solar system for the Korbinites to launch an attack.. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #3  FB (13-14) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (1-x). Ven and the other two soldiers are on a spaceship which is part of the fleet attacking Ashta/Galactus. One of them begins praying for Beta Ray Bill to come back and save all of them. Ashta is shown starting to destroy the fleet. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (x-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 3-FB (13-14). The Korbinite military is losing the battle with Ashta. The priests convince the military to release Alpha Ray. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4  FB (1-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (x-x). It is days before SSBRB 4. On board one of the spaceships in the fleet, Ven and his two companions watch the battle unfold over the monitor screen. The fleet is losing. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (x-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 4-FB (1-x). Beta Ray Bill arrives back in his home solar system to see the Korbinite fleet in ruins and a giant tentacle creature destroying everything. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4  FB (x-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (x-x). Ven and his comrades see Beta Ray Bills return on the monitor. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (x-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 4-FB (x-x). Bill recognizes the creature as Ashta from Korbinite legend, but he quickly realizes its Galactus. As Beta Ray is about to fight Galactus, the unstable Alpha Ray comes along and attacks Beta Ray, believing him to be the real threat. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4  FB (x-2) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (x-x). Ven and comrades see Alpha Ray attack Bill and the screen goes blank as an energy blast from Ashta/Galactus destroys part of their ship. A crack opens up in the ship and some of Vens friends are sucked out into the vacuum of space. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5  FB (1p1-1p5) 
The same day as SSBRB 4-FB (x-2). It is days before SSBRB 5. Ven makes his way through the damaged spaceship, finally meeting up with other soldiers in an armory room. The lights suddenly go out as the damaged ship loses power. They are left alone in the dark. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (x-23) 
The same day as SSBRB 5-FB (1p1-1p5). Galactus knocks the Alpha Ray and Beta Ray away and starts to feed on the Korbonites home world. Bill tries to attack Galactus again, but Galactus has his new herald Stardust attack Bill. While the two duel, Galactus swats Bill and devours the planet. The few remaining Korbinite space ships try to flee, but Galactus blows many of them out of the sky. Bills home world and solar system lie in ruin. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2 (1-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (x-23). It is several months after SSBRB 2-FB (13-14). Bill awakens to find his solar system in ruins. From space he receives a signal from his friend Skuttlebutt, a sentient spaceship of the Korbinites. Bill hops aboard Skuttlebutt and the ship reveals that its keeping guard over the Meta-Orb as it journeys through space trying to find a new planet for their people to live on. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5  FB (1p6-2) 
The same day as SSBRB 2 (1-x). It is hours after SSBRB 5-FB (1p1-1p5). The soldiers dont hear the sound of fighting outside anymore, and think the battle is over. Just then, into the spaceship bursts Stardust, who starts slaughtering the Korbinites. Ven is knocked by Stardust out the hull and into deep space. His helmet cracked, slowly losing oxygen, Ven wishes that hell get to see his girlfriend Sala in the next life. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2 (x-13p1) 
The same day as SSBRB 5-FB (1-2). As Galactus eats the last remnants of the Korbinites home world, Stardust kills remaining Korbinites in the wreckage of the fleet. Stardust encounters Alpha Rays unconscious body and asks Galactus if he can kill the construct, but Galactus says to spare him. Stardust is shocked to see that Galactus body suffered a minor crack from the attack Bill launched at Galactus. Stardust flies off to hunt down Beta Ray Bill to exact vengeance. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2 (20-22) 
One day, probably days after SSBRB 2 (x-13). As Bill sits around overwhelmed by all of the tragedy that has happened to his people and to the Asgardians, Skuttlebutts censors detect that the Meta-Orb is in trouble. Stardust has arrived and is holding the Meta-Orb hostage. Bill flies out and the two prepare to do battle. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #3 
The same day as SSBRB 2 (20-22). It is several months after SSBRB 3-FB. Bill rescues the Meta-Orb from the hands of Stardust and sends it and Skuttlebutt deeper into space while he stays behind to face Stardust. They duel and Bill blows Stardust to pieces. Stardust reforms himself and realizes he cant beat Beta Ray fair and square, so using a mystical spell, he unlocks a doorway to a cosmic hell into which Bill barely keeps himself from being sucked. A black tentacle reaches out from the hell and wraps around Bill, but he breaks the tentacle off. Stardust starts to panic and closes the door, but hes not fast enough  the black tentacle mutates, transforming into a female devil-creature who calls herself Asteroth. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4 
The same day as SSBRB 3. Bill and Stardust are knocked unconscious by emergence of Asteroth. She declares that shes a being of pure chaos and intends to devour the order of the universe and she flies off. She arrives at a nearby planet and starts to incinerate it, feeding on the destruction. Stardust and Bill wake up, and Stardust convinces Bill they need to put aside their fighting and destroy Asteroth. They fly off together and attack Asteroth, but shes already too powerful. Stardust casts another dimensional spell, this time opening up a black hole, hoping to suck Asteroth in, but she turns it around on them and Stardust and Bill start to get sucked in. Meanwhile, Galactus picks up Alpha Ray and fills the robot with the Power Cosmic, saying he needs Alpha Ray to perform one final task. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5 (3-9) 
The same day as SSBRB 4. Stardust and Bill are being sucked into the black hole. They try to drag in Asteroth as well, but she seems immune to the pull of the black hole. Draining energy from Bill and Stardust, Asteroth stumbles on the Meta-Orb, which is tucked inside Bills belt. All seems lost when Alpha Ray arrives, slamming into Asteroth and dragging her into the black hole. Asteroth, Stardust, and Alpha Ray are sucked in, but Alpha Rays slamming knocks Bill backwards out of the event horizon, and the black hole closes before it can suck Bill in. Bill fades into unconsciousness. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5 (10-23) 
One day. Bill wakes up in a strange white place beyond time and space. A strange voice explains that Bill is in another dimension outside of time and space, a dimension ruled by cosmic beings who locked away Asteroth and others in the cosmic hell. Theyve transported Bill to their dimension to thank him for stopping Asteroth. Bill sees that Skuttlebutt is here too. The cosmic beings tell Bill they will transport him wherever he wishes to go, and he decides he wants to go back to Asgard to check to see if the Asgardians won the final battle of Ragnarok. So Bill gets onboard Skuttlebutt, and they leave this dimension behind. Appearing back in real time and space, they find theyre on a course for Asgard. Bill pauses to mourn the Korbinites some more. Skuttlebutt reports that there is strange energy emitting from the Meta-Orb. This energy starts growing out of control, and Bill grabs the Meta-Orb and busts out of the ship. The Meta-Orb emits an explosion of energy, and Bill and the Meta-Orb fall to the ground below, which turns out to be Asgard in ruins. Bill stumbles upon Surturs corpse. He walks back over to the Meta-Orb and is shocked as it cracks open and a demonic version of Beta Ray Bill pops out. This creature reveals itself to be a mixture of Asteroth and the Korbinites and calls itself Omega Ray. Before Asteroth was sucked into the black hole, she put a small portion of her essense in the Meta-Orb. Shes been feasting upon the souls in the Meta-Orb since then, and now has broken out in this new body. Enraged, Bill immediately starts hammering away, calling upon all of the remaining power of Odin left in Asgard to strike down this foe. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #6  FB (16/17p2-20) 
The same day as SSBRB 5 (10-23). Bill barely destroys Omega Ray, but all of the energy Bill unleashed leaves Bill dying as well. He notices the Meta-Orb still pulses with life and realizes that not all of the souls inside were devoured by Omega Ray. He crawls over to try to release the souls inside, but loses consciousness. He wakes up to what appears to be a glowing white female figure standing overhead that says she will take good care of the remaining souls inside the Meta-Orb. She touches Bill, who breathes his last breath. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #6 
The same day as SSBRB 6-FB (16/17-20). A homeless man, Simon Walters, lies dead in the gutter on a New York street corner. Lightning bursts, rain falls, and Walters comes back to life. He gets up and walks out onto the street, nearly getting hit by a speeding car. The car swerves and crashes, and out of it jumps a hoodlum, who says hes fleeing Spider-Man. This hoodlum transforms himself into a super-villain, the Boar, and he smashes up the street, then beats up Walters. Simon hits his hand on the ground, magically transforms into Beta Ray Bill, and starts pounding on the Boar. Spider-Man arrives and the two team up and defeat the Boar. They then go out for pizza. A short time later, Simon/Bill tells Spidey about the plight of the Korbinites, and he thinks back to the last thing he remembers. Spider-Man tells Bill hes gotten a new lease on life, and Bill says he plans on making the most of it. The two heroes go their separate ways.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Jul 2005 11:39 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Let me double check a couple of things, and I'll get back to you tomorrow on this. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 03:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

According to the recent FF HANDBOOK, STORMBREAKER takes place after Galactus' appearance in FF. His powers return, he comes back.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 12:07 pm    
By John Simons

Quote: 
>>>
Is Skuttlebutt a new character? From the way Bill and the ship talk, they've known each other a long time, and I figured with a wierd name like Skuttlebutt, this ship was created by the writers back in the 80's, when Beta Ray Bill first came onto the scene, (really, what type of name is Beta Ray Bill as well?!?)  
<<<

Skuttlebutt has been BRB's ship/companion ever since he first appeared during Walt Simonson's Thor run. Not sure why he/it's not in the MCP; do AIs not count as characters unless they are in a humanoid form?
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 04:00 pm    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
According to the recent FF HANDBOOK, STORMBREAKER takes place after Galactus' appearance in FF. His powers return, he comes back. 
<<<

That basically confirms that Ragnarok runs concurrantly with the FF Disassembled/Rising Storm arc, doesn't it, despite explicitly starting before A500? (Of course, the Ragnarok arc takes 2-3 months Asgardian time) 

And, yes, Skuttlebutt's from Bill's very first appearances, where they were the guardians of a fleet of ships with the Korbinites (unnamed) in cold storage after they fleed the destruction of Korbin.

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 05:08 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I did some double checking about the Thor flashbacks... 

Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p5) 
We see Thor and Sif, (who has one arm, as she did in her appearance in those final issues of Thor), they're standing next to each other, Thor with his arm around her for support.  
<<<

This is exactly the same panel as Thor #83, Page 4, panel 4, (except it chops off Beta Ray Bill in the panel, focusing on Thor with his arm around Sif). 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p6) 
A brief flash of the final battle, with Surtur standing over the battlefield.  
<<<

Hard to say where this one fits in, (it's a generic shot of Surtur standing over the Asgardians and Demons fighting on the battlefield below), but I'd say between pgs. 9 and 10 of Thor #85. On pg. 9, Surtur and the monsters are marching to battle. On pgs. 10/11, Surtur is taking part in the battle, swinging his giant sword. Maybe this flashback panel occurs right before Surtur decides to swing his sword on pgs. 10/11... 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p7) 
A panel shot of the fallen Sif, lying motionless on the battlefield. 
<<<


This one is, as I said, just a close up of the apparently dead Sif on the battlefield. As these are Bill's memory's, perhaps this is the last image he saw right before Thor whisked him away from the battle? Thus, it would occur in Thor #85, inbetween panels 2 and 3 on page 12. 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (4-6) 
Beta Ray Bill is fighting alongside the Asgardians. We see Volstagg killed, and then we see Sif slain. Thor then teleports Beta Ray Bill out of there and tells Bill he wants Bill to live, and for him to remember them and tell others of the Asgardians great deeds. Bill reluctantly agrees and flies off through space to go back to his people. 
<<<

I think I'll just have to break down both scenes, (from Thor #85, and Stormbreaker #1), and then we can try and interconnect them as best we can. 

Thor #85, page 9: A single page spread which has Surtur and the monsters marching off to fight the final battle of Ragnarok. 

Thor #85, page 10/11: A two page spread showing the battle in progress. Beta Ray Bill, Sif, and Volstagg are all present. Sif says, "Onward, Warriors! Break your shields, crack your swords as this is our final day!" 

Bill says, "For Asgard!! For Thor!!" 

Volstagg says, "Empty your souls into your weapons, men! Let your swords sing and axes cry! 

Other misc. warriors are shouting: "For Baldar!" and "For Heimdall!" and "For Odin!" 

Surtur is shown swinging his blade in battle. 

Thor #85, page 12, Panel 1: Volstagg is pierced by a blade, and Sif is struck down by arrows, all in the same panel. They don't say anything as they are killed in this panel. 

Thor #85, page 12, Panel 2: Bill swings his hammer in a circle, knocking back a bunch of foes. 

Thor #85, page 12, panel 3: A bolt of energy strikes Bill. 

Thor #85, page 12, panel 4: Beta Ray Bill is floating in space. Thor's voice calls out to him, and tells Bill to go back to his people. Bill asks to stay. 

Thor #85, page 12, panel 5: Thor says for Bill to remember the Asgardian's deeds. 

Thor #85, page 12, panel 6: Bill reluctantly agrees. 

Now, Stormbreaker #1, page 4/5: A two page spread showing the final battle of Asgard. Surtur is not in this spread, strangely enough. It shows Bill, Volstagg, and Sif fighting alongside all of the warriors. 

Bill is standing on top of the body of a demon in a heroic pose, shouting out, "The battle is not lost! We shall prevail, for we are the warriors of Asgard and none can stand before our might!" 

Perhaps this is a short time after Thor #85, pgs. 10/11, (maybe Surtur's moved further down the battlefield, out of panel). 

Stormbreaker #1, page 6, panel 1: A panel showing Sif cutting off a demon's head, shouting, "RRAARGH!". In this same panel, we see Volstagg pierced, as he shouts, "Is this all you have?! Is this all?!" The shot of him being pierced looks exactly like it did in Thor #85. 

Stormbreaker #1, page 6, panel 2: Volstagg is now shown lying dead on the battlefield. Sif is still cutting up foes, and says, "You do your brothers proud, Volstagg-may the three be one again!" Surtur is standing overhead waving his sword in this panel. 

Stormbreaker #1, page 6, panel 3: Sif is struck down by arrows, (this shot looks exactly like it did in Thor #85). Sif says, "AGH! And I shall follow..." Bill is also in a corner of this panel in this version, and he shouts out, "LADY SIF!" 

Stormbreaker #1, page 6, panel 4: This panel matches Thor 85, page 12, panel 3 exactly. 

Stormbreaker #1, page 6, panel 5: This panel matches Thor 85, page 12, panel 4 exactly. 

Stormbreaker #1, page 6, panel 6: This panel matches Thor 85, page 12, panel 5 exactly. 

Stormbreaker #1, page 6, panel 7: This panel matches Thor 85, page 12, panel 6 exactly. 

And that's the end of the dual/Ragnarok scenes. 

Hope that helps, *pant, pant*  


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #3  FB (x-11) 
The same day as SSBRB 2-FB (18-19). It is several months before SSBRB 3. While waiting in line for uniforms, two drafted Korbinites strike up a conversation with Ven, wondering what all the fuss is about. Ven explains its Ashta coming to destroy their world. 
<<<


This scene is entirely on pg. 11. 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (1-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 3-FB (12). The Korbonites hold an emergency session between the priests and the military. They have discovered that the fallen god Ashta is coming to attack their world, and they make preparations to defend their planet. The priests want to revive Alpha Ray, the robot construct that preceded Beta Ray Bill, but the military is hesitant to release Alpha Ray, because his mind was unstable. The session comes to an end as Ashta arrives close enough in their solar system for the Korbinites to launch an attack.. 
<<<

This scene ends on pg. 3. 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (x-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 3-FB (13-14). The Korbinite military is losing the battle with Ashta. The priests convince the military to release Alpha Ray.  
<<<

This scene happens entirely on pg. 7 of Issue #1. 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4  FB (1-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (x-x). It is days before SSBRB 4. On board one of the spaceships in the fleet, Ven and his two companions watch the battle unfold over the monitor screen. The fleet is losing. 
<<<

This occurs on pg. 1, panels 1 and 2. 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (x-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 4-FB (1-x). Beta Ray Bill arrives back in his home solar system to see the Korbinite fleet in ruins and a giant tentacle creature destroying everything. 
<<< 

This occurs on pgs. 8-10 of Issue #1. 

Allright, I think the way you've deconstructed the next few scenes is wrong, (my fault for not breaking these scenes down a bit better)so let me see if I can figure this out: 

Next on your timeline would be as follows: 

Issue #4, page 1, panels 3, 4 (out of 6): A beam from Ashta strikes Ven's ship, shaking the crew, and blacking out the monitor temporarily. 

Issue #1, page #11: Alpha Ray is shown blasting off to fight Galactus. Beta Ray Bill starts attacking Ashta/Galactus. The military and priests notice on their censors that Beta Ray Bill has returned. 

Issue #4, page 1, panel 5: The monitor turns back on and Ven and his friends see Bill attacking Ashta/Galactus, (the image on the monitor screen is a duplicate of an image of Bill from Issue #1, page 16, panel 1, which actually means it's out of order, as the next image on their monitor is a scene from pg. 12 of issue #1, but I guess the artist needed a generic shot of Bill attacking Ashta from Issue #1, so he chose that one to insert....) 

Issue #1, page #12, panel 1, (of 5): Bill is attacking Ashta... 

Issue #1, pg. 12, panel 2, (of 5): Alpha Ray comes along and attacks Bill! 

Issue #4, page 1, panel #6, (of 6): Ven and friends notice Alpha Ray is attacking Bill. The image on the monitor is an exact duplicate of the image from Issue #1, page 12, panel 2. So I guess they are happening at the same time. 

Issue #4, page 2, (all of pg. 2): On Ven's ship, an energy blast from Ashta/Galactus destroys part of their ship. A crack opens up in the ship and some of Vens friends are sucked out into the vacuum of space. 

Issue #1, pg. 12, panel 3, (of 5): Bill asks Alpha Ray why he's attacking him. Alpha Ray says he will replace Beta Ray as the favored warrior of the Korbinites. 

Issue #1, pg. 12, panel 4 and 5, (of 5): Back on the lead ship of the fleet, the military is demanding the priests get Alpha Ray to stop attacking Bill, but the priests say it cannot be stopped. 

Okay, after that, I think the following two entries should be switched around on your timeline, because it seems to take Ven a while to get through the ship to the armory room, while the battle against Galactus happens fairly rapidly. 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5  FB (1p1-1p5) 
The same day as SSBRB 4-FB (page 2). It is days before SSBRB 5. Ven makes his way through the damaged spaceship, finally meeting up with other soldiers in an armory room. The lights suddenly go out as the damaged ship loses power. They are left alone in the dark. 
<<<


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (x-23) 
The same day as SSBRB 5-FB (1p1-1p5). Galactus knocks the Alpha Ray and Beta Ray away and starts to feed on the Korbonites home world. Bill tries to attack Galactus again, but Galactus has his new herald Stardust attack Bill. While the two duel, Galactus swats Bill and devours the planet. The few remaining Korbinite space ships try to flee, but Galactus blows many of them out of the sky. Bills home world and solar system lie in ruin.  
<<<

The X is pg. 13. Or I guess it could be pg. 12, panel 3, (of 5), if you merge that all together.... 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2 (1-x) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (13-23). It is several months after SSBRB 2-FB (13-14). Bill awakens to find his solar system in ruins. From space he receives a signal from his friend Skuttlebutt, a sentient spaceship of the Korbinites. Bill hops aboard Skuttlebutt and the ship reveals that its keeping guard over the Meta-Orb as it journeys through space trying to find a new planet for their people to live on. 
<<< 


The X is pg. 6. Change the text to "Bill floats unconsious next to the sun in his solar system. Stardust asks Galactus if he can go and start slaying any remaining Korbinites. Bill awakens to find his solar system in ruins. From space he receives a signal from his friend Skuttlebutt, a sentient spaceship of the Korbinites, and flies off to join Skuttlebutt. " 


THEN we have, 

Quote: 
>>>
"STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5  FB (1p6-2) 
The same day as SSBRB 2 (1-6). It is hours after SSBRB 5-FB (1p1-1p5). The soldiers dont hear the sound of fighting outside anymore, and think the battle is over. Just then, into the spaceship bursts Stardust, who starts slaughtering the Korbinites. Ven is knocked by Stardust out the hull and into deep space. His helmet cracked, slowly losing oxygen, Ven wishes that hell get to see his girlfriend Sala in the next life. 
<<< 


Then we have, 

Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2 (x-13p1) 
The same day as SSBRB 5-FB (1-2). As Galactus eats the last remnants of the Korbinites home world, Stardust kills remaining Korbinites in the wreckage of the fleet. Stardust encounters Alpha Rays unconscious body and asks Galactus if he can kill the construct, but Galactus says to spare him. Stardust is shocked to see that Galactus body suffered a minor crack from the attack Bill launched at Galactus. Stardust flies off to hunt down Beta Ray Bill to exact vengeance 
<<<

And into the text above, add the bit about "Bill hops aboard Skuttlebutt and the ship reveals that its keeping guard over the Meta-Orb as it journeys through space trying to find a new planet for their people to live on." 

And the X is pg. 7. 


Quote: 
>>>
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2 (20-22) 
One day, probably days after SSBRB 2 (x-13). 
<<<

This x would be pg. 1 of Issue #2. 

Okay, that should be all of the "x"s throughout your timeline... 

Let me know if that helps any, or if I've messed it all up...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 05:27 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
According to the recent FF HANDBOOK, STORMBREAKER takes place after Galactus' appearance in FF. His powers return, he comes back. 


That's the quickest return to 'status quo' I've seen in some time...is this some sort of pot shot at Mark Waid, for signing exclusively with DC?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jul 2005 08:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Kevin...Thanks for the quick, in-depth response. My first reaction is  , but after I log in this week's new comics, I'll get back to re-piecing the various parts of Thor and Stormbreaker and getting them into the calendar, thanks to your notes.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 10:04 pm    
By JLH

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
That's the quickest return to 'status quo' I've seen in some time...is this some sort of pot shot at Mark Waid, for signing exclusively with DC? 
<<<

If anything, I'd see it as homaging him, since between "Birthright" and the new LSH, he seems to be writing only stories which involve GIANT SCREAMING RETCONS.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jul 2005 10:28 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Hey, Kevin...Thanks for the quick, in-depth response. My first reaction is  , but after I log in this week's new comics, I'll get back to re-piecing the various parts of Thor and Stormbreaker and getting them into the calendar, thanks to your notes. 
<<<

Let me know if you have any more questions. I found myself drained after trying to sort through all that, and I want to make sure I haven't messed it up. Let me know what it looks like when you're done deciphering it. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jul 2005 04:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, let's see if I have this right. First up, the flashback scenes that weave throughout T2 85... 

THOR v2 #85 (1-9) 
The same day as T 84. Upon seeing that Those Who Sit Above in Shadow get their power from the cycle of Ragnaroks that befall the Norse Gods, Thor sends Surtur to Asgard to give his compatriots one final battle. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p6) 
The same day as T2 85 (1-9). Surtur stands over the battlefield. 
THOR v2 #85 (10-11) 
The same day as SSBRB 1-FB (14p6). Sif, Volstagg, and Bill press onward through the battle. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (4-5) 
The same day as T2 85 (10-11). Beta Ray Bill continues to fight alongside the Asgardians. 
THOR v2 #85 (12p1) ~ STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (6p1-6p3) 
The same day as SSBRB 1-FB (4-5). Sif and Volstagg are killed in battle. 
THOR v2 #85 (12p2) 
The same day as T2 85 (12p1). Bill knocks back a bunch of foes with his hammer. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p7) 
The same day as T2 85 (12p2). Sif lies motionless on the battlefield. 
THOR v2 #85 (12p3-24) 
The same day as SSBRB 1-FB (14p7). This segment occurs before HERC 1-FB (7-9). Thor removes Beta Ray Bill from the scene and then destroys the tapestry thread that causes the Ragnarok cycle. In doing so, he makes the destruction of Asgard permanent. The remaining Norse gods die, except for Thor, who appears to transcend corporeal form and enters a great sleep. 

Now, all the other scenes from SSBRB... 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2  FB (13p2-16) 
One day, several months before SSBRB 2. According to the FF Handbook, this flashback occurs after FF 523. A young Korbinite scientist named Ven spots an image of what appears to be Ashta in distant space heading towards his planet. He is afraid to tell anyone at first, thinking theyll believe him insane. He goes home and tells his girlfriend Sala and she convinces him to tell the head scientists. Ven goes reports his findings to his superiors, who agree to look over his work. They take their findings to the head scientists, who hold a council meeting about Vens work. The military barges in and says that if it is Ashta approaching, theyre taking over, as its a military threat now. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2  FB (17) 
Perhaps the day after SSBRB 2-FB (13-16). The militarys probes of Ashta end up destroyed as they draw near. As the military ponders what to do next, the priests burst into their chambers and demand the truth about whether Ashta is coming. The priests decide its time to start making plans for evacuation. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2  FB (18-19) 
One day. The priests, working with scientists of faith, create the Meta-Orb to hold the life forces of the Korbinites. They have begun a mass evacuation, putting 80% of all of the life forces on the planet in the Meta-Orb. As Ven and Sala wait in line to be put in the Meta-Orb, when the military separates them. Sala is put in the Meta-Orb while Ven is told he has been put in a line of strong, healthy males to be drafted into the military to serve in the battle against Ashta. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #3  FB (11) 
The same day as SSBRB 2-FB (18-19). It is several months before SSBRB 3. While waiting in line for uniforms, two drafted Korbinites strike up a conversation with Ven, wondering what all the fuss is about. Ven explains its Ashta coming to destroy their world. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #3  FB (12) 
One day. As Ven and his fellow draftees discuss the loved ones theyve left behind in the Meta-Orb, military officers burst into their quarters and tell them to suit up to go into battle. Ven says, Shipping out? We've only begun our training, but the military says Ashta is faster than anticipated. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (1-3) 
The same day as SSBRB 3-FB (12). The Korbonites hold an emergency session between the priests and the military. They have discovered that the fallen god Ashta is coming to attack their world, and they make preparations to defend their planet. The priests want to revive Alpha Ray, the robot construct that preceded Beta Ray Bill, but the military is hesitant to release Alpha Ray, because his mind was unstable. The session comes to an end as Ashta arrives close enough in their solar system for the Korbinites to launch an attack.. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #3  FB (13-14) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (1-3). Ven and the other two soldiers are on a spaceship which is part of the fleet attacking Ashta/Galactus. One of them begins praying for Beta Ray Bill to come back and save all of them. Ashta is shown starting to destroy the fleet. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (7) 
The same day as SSBRB 3-FB (13-14). The Korbinite military is losing the battle with Ashta. The priests convince the military to release Alpha Ray. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4  FB (1p1-1p2) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (7). It is days before SSBRB 4. On board one of the spaceships in the fleet, Ven and his two companions watch the battle unfold over the monitor screen. The fleet is losing. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (8-10) 
The same day as SSBRB 4-FB (1p1-1p2). Beta Ray Bill arrives back in his home solar system to see the Korbinite fleet in ruins and a giant tentacle creature destroying everything. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4  FB (1p3-1p4) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (8-10). A beam from Ashta strikes Ven's ship, shaking the crew, and blacking out the monitor temporarily. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (11) 
The same day as SSBRB 4-FB (1p3-1p4). Alpha Ray blasts off to fight Galactus. Beta Ray Bill starts attacking Ashta/Galactus. The military and priests notice on their censors that Beta Ray Bill has returned. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4  FB (1p5) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (11). The monitor turns back on and Ven and his friends see Bill attacking Ashta/Galactus. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (12p1-12p2) 
The same day as SSBRB 4-FB (1p5). Bill attacks Ashta and Alpha Ray comes along and attacks Bill. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4  FB (1p6-2) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (12p1-12p2). Ven and friends notice Alpha Ray attacking Bill. An energy blast from Ashta/Galactus destroys part of their ship. A crack opens up in the ship and some of Vens friends are sucked out into space.STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1 (12p3-23) 
The same day as SSBRB 4-FB (1-2). Bill asks Alpha Ray why hes attacking him. Alpha Ray says he will replace Beta Ray as the favored warrior of the Korbinites. Back on the lead ship of the fleet, the military is demanding the priests get Alpha Ray to stop attacking Bill, but the priests say it cannot be stopped. Galactus knocks Alpha Ray and Beta Ray away and starts to feed on the Korbonites home world. Bill tries to attack Galactus again, but Galactus has his new herald Stardust attack Bill. While the two duel, Galactus swats Bill and devours the planet. The few remaining Korbinite space ships try to flee, but Galactus blows many of them out of the sky. Bills home world and solar system lie in ruin. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5  FB (1p1-1p5) 
The same day as SSBRB 1 (12-23). It is days before SSBRB 5. Ven makes his way through the damaged spaceship, finally meeting up with other soldiers in an armory room. The lights suddenly go out as the damaged ship loses power. They are left alone in the dark. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2 (1-6) 
The same day as SSBRB 5-FB (1p1-1p5). It is several months after SSBRB 2-FB (13-14). Bill floats unconscious next to the sun in his solar system. Stardust asks Galactus if he can go and start slaying any remaining Korbinites. Bill awakens to find his solar system in ruins. From space he receives a signal from his friend Skuttlebutt, a sentient spaceship of the Korbinites, and flies off to join Skuttlebutt. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5  FB (1p6-2) 
The same day as SSBRB 2 (1-6). It is hours after SSBRB 5-FB (1p1-1p5). The soldiers dont hear the sound of fighting outside anymore, and think the battle is over. Just then, into the spaceship bursts Stardust, who starts slaughtering the Korbinites. Ven is knocked by Stardust out the hull and into deep space. His helmet cracked, slowly losing oxygen, Ven wishes that hell get to see his girlfriend Sala in the next life. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2 (7-13p1) 
The same day as SSBRB 5-FB (1-2). Bill hops aboard Skuttlebutt and the ship reveals that its keeping guard over the Meta-Orb as it journeys through space trying to find a new planet for their people to live on. As Galactus eats the last remnants of the Korbinites home world, Stardust kills remaining Korbinites in the wreckage of the fleet. Stardust encounters Alpha Rays unconscious body and asks Galactus if he can kill the construct, but Galactus says to spare him. Stardust is shocked to see that Galactus body suffered a minor crack from the attack Bill launched at Galactus. Stardust flies off to hunt down Beta Ray Bill to exact vengeance. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #2 (20-22) 
One day, probably days after SSBRB 2 (7-13). As Bill sits around overwhelmed by all of the tragedy that has happened to his people and to the Asgardians, Skuttlebutts censors detect that the Meta-Orb is in trouble. Stardust has arrived and is holding the Meta-Orb hostage. Bill flies out and the two prepare to do battle. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #3 
The same day as SSBRB 2 (20-22). It is several months after SSBRB 3-FB (11). Bill rescues the Meta-Orb from the hands of Stardust and sends it and Skuttlebutt deeper into space while he stays behind to face Stardust. They duel and Bill blows Stardust to pieces. Stardust reforms himself and realizes he cant beat Beta Ray fair and square, so using a mystical spell, he unlocks a doorway to a cosmic hell into which Bill barely keeps himself from being sucked. A black tentacle reaches out from the hell and wraps around Bill, but he breaks the tentacle off. Stardust starts to panic and closes the door, but hes not fast enough  the black tentacle mutates, transforming into a female devil-creature who calls herself Asteroth. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #4 
The same day as SSBRB 3. Bill and Stardust are knocked unconscious by emergence of Asteroth. She declares that shes a being of pure chaos and intends to devour the order of the universe and she flies off. She arrives at a nearby planet and starts to incinerate it, feeding on the destruction. Stardust and Bill wake up, and Stardust convinces Bill they need to put aside their fighting and destroy Asteroth. They fly off together and attack Asteroth, but shes already too powerful. Stardust casts another dimensional spell, this time opening up a black hole, hoping to suck Asteroth in, but she turns it around on them and Stardust and Bill start to get sucked in. Meanwhile, Galactus picks up Alpha Ray and fills the robot with the Power Cosmic, saying he needs Alpha Ray to perform one final task. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5 (3-9) 
The same day as SSBRB 4. Stardust and Bill are being sucked into the black hole. They try to drag in Asteroth as well, but she seems immune to the pull of the black hole. Draining energy from Bill and Stardust, Asteroth stumbles on the Meta-Orb, which is tucked inside Bills belt. All seems lost when Alpha Ray arrives, slamming into Asteroth and dragging her into the black hole. Asteroth, Stardust, and Alpha Ray are sucked in, but Alpha Rays slamming knocks Bill backwards out of the event horizon, and the black hole closes before it can suck Bill in. Bill fades into unconsciousness. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #5 (10-23) 
One day. Bill wakes up in a strange white place beyond time and space. A strange voice explains that Bill is in another dimension outside of time and space, a dimension ruled by cosmic beings who locked away Asteroth and others in the cosmic hell. Theyve transported Bill to their dimension to thank him for stopping Asteroth. Bill sees that Skuttlebutt is here too. The cosmic beings tell Bill they will transport him wherever he wishes to go, and he decides he wants to go back to Asgard to check to see if the Asgardians won the final battle of Ragnarok. So Bill gets onboard Skuttlebutt, and they leave this dimension behind. Appearing back in real time and space, they find theyre on a course for Asgard. Bill pauses to mourn the Korbinites some more. Skuttlebutt reports that there is strange energy emitting from the Meta-Orb. This energy starts growing out of control, and Bill grabs the Meta-Orb and busts out of the ship. The Meta-Orb emits an explosion of energy, and Bill and the Meta-Orb fall to the ground below, which turns out to be Asgard in ruins. Bill stumbles upon Surturs corpse. He walks back over to the Meta-Orb and is shocked as it cracks open and a demonic version of Beta Ray Bill pops out. This creature reveals itself to be a mixture of Asteroth and the Korbinites and calls itself Omega Ray. Before Asteroth was sucked into the black hole, she put a small portion of her essense in the Meta-Orb. Shes been feasting upon the souls in the Meta-Orb since then, and now has broken out in this new body. Enraged, Bill immediately starts hammering away, calling upon all of the remaining power of Odin left in Asgard to strike down this foe. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #6  FB (16/17p2-20) 
The same day as SSBRB 5 (10-23). Bill barely destroys Omega Ray, but all of the energy Bill unleashed leaves Bill dying as well. He notices the Meta-Orb still pulses with life and realizes that not all of the souls inside were devoured by Omega Ray. He crawls over to try to release the souls inside, but loses consciousness. He wakes up to what appears to be a glowing white female figure standing overhead that says she will take good care of the remaining souls inside the Meta-Orb. She touches Bill, who breathes his last breath. 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #6 
The same day as SSBRB 6-FB (16/17-20). A homeless man, Simon Walters, lies dead in the gutter on a New York street corner. Lightning bursts, rain falls, and Walters comes back to life. He gets up and walks out onto the street, nearly getting hit by a speeding car. The car swerves and crashes, and out of it jumps a hoodlum, who says hes fleeing Spider-Man. This hoodlum transforms himself into a super-villain, the Boar, and he smashes up the street, then beats up Walters. Simon hits his hand on the ground, magically transforms into Beta Ray Bill, and starts pounding on the Boar. Spider-Man arrives and the two team up and defeat the Boar. They then go out for pizza. A short time later, Simon/Bill tells Spidey about the plight of the Korbinites, and he thinks back to the last thing he remembers. Spider-Man tells Bill hes gotten a new lease on life, and Bill says he plans on making the most of it. The two heroes go their separate ways. 

Is all this good to go?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 11:49 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Allright, I've thoroughly checked over all of your reconfigured notes, and it looks like we've got this one done!  

Man, I thought that one was going to be a simple one...@#$%ing flashbacks... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jul 2005 04:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin said: 
>>>
Allright, I've thoroughly checked over all of your reconfigured notes, and it looks like we've got this one done!  
<<<

Wha-hoo! Many thanks, Kevin. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 41

Posted: 12 Jul 2005 09:09 pm    Post subject: excalibur 13, 14
By poetdowns

Greetings, 

Getting comix in my particular locale is kind of hit-and-miss. So i never saw those 2 books; which were touted as the beginning of the House of M saga. 
I was just wondering if anyone could tell me what actualy happens in those 2 books -i mean it's going to take time and effort to get them and before i pursue that it'd be nice to know if something important/significant happened or it's the regular marvel preview hype. 

Regards, 
Poet

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Posted: 12 Jul 2005 10:16 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

In Excalibur #13, Professor X decides that he needs help to treat Wanda, and calls in Doctor Strange. This happens on the last two pages, as the rest of the issue is various X-Men members fighting people in Zanzibar. 

Excalibur #14 involves the Doc and the Prof taking a stroll through Professor X's memories, as well as Magneto's. They find Magneto at the heart of Wanda's mind, and he asks the Professor to kill him because he's been a bad parent. 

My opinion is not to bother with these just yet - certainly #13 would be a waste of your coin. Issue #14 could prove important to House of M as a whole, but it's hard to say until the full story comes to light. My instinct is that it will be irrelevant, but who knows.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 12 Jul 2005 11:46 pm    
By poetdowns

Thank you very much, i appreciate that. 

Poet

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Thread 42

Posted: 07 Jul 2005 11:44 am    Post subject: "Crack the Internet in Half" (Possible Spoilers)
By journeyman335

So I just read the new House of M story, and after reading what John Q was saying about it before it came out, I must say im disapointed. Im jsut curious to hear what you guys think. As far as I'm concerned, as or right now, nothing in House of M has an impact on the regular continuity, and thats why the last bage of issue #3 doesnt effect me. 

Thats just what i think.

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Posted: 07 Jul 2005 11:58 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I think we come at it from two different angles, you and I. The less they change in this crossover, the happier I am. I'll wait until the series is over, though, before breathing a sigh of relief. I think it's not until all is said and done, that you're going to be seeing the impact. I hope I'm wrong, but... 

I don't have a problem with "impacting continuity" (although I, too, would be upset if I spent money on books, only to find out later that they took place entirely outside continuity); I'm just concerned that they'll try to convince us that they've changed the past. 

That's going to get ugly. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 07 Jul 2005 11:01 pm    
By Col_Fury

The more I look into what post-HoM(pHoM) might be... I'm not sure. How these things usually work(Age of Apocalypse, etc.) is that the 'regular' status quo is re-set after the series ends. HoM doesn't seem that much different than AoA,("impacted" continuity being the history we know is wrong, Magneto leading the X-Men in AoA, mutants being popular in HoM) but Marvel keeps saying that 'drastic' changes will happen afterwards. I can't see the end result being much more than a stream-lining of Marvel history, kind of like Crisis for DC, but what would that be? Tying the origins of Doctor Doom & the FF together like in the Ultimate Universe? "Re-defining" the origin of Dr. Strange? "Re-establishing" the early days of the Black Panther, making original issues of FF moot? If that's the point of this miniseries, why bother? They tried this already with Spider-Man: Chapter One, & we all saw how well that worked out. 

Again, we'll have to wait until the mini ends(& maybe even longer after that, knowing Bendis) to see what's what, but I'd rather not alter anything.

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 08:48 am    
By BobMM

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I don't have a problem with "impacting continuity" (although I, too, would be upset if I spent money on books, only to find out later that they took place entirely outside continuity); I'm just concerned that they'll try to convince us that they've changed the past. 

That's going to get ugly. 
<<<

I have an almost-but-not-quite-completely-unfounded theory about where House of M is going to land the MU. 

Everybody's pretty comfortable with the idea of alternate futures, in which events unreel differently based on the outcome of some critical event. 

I'm speculating that House of M will leave us with the idea of alternate pasts, all of which converge into a single continuity following HoM #8. Such a trick would allow writers to use or ignore past published stories at their whim and still be "within continuity" because both alternate versions feed the present. For example, it would rationalize the current BLACK PANTHER retcon. 

And it would certainly allow the "new kinds of stories" that Joe Q. & co. have been hyping in connection with the event. 

I'll hope I'm wrong since that would make things pretty tough for the MCP.

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 11:59 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

BobMM wrote: 
>>>
I'm speculating that House of M will leave us with the idea of alternate pasts, all of which converge into a single continuity following HoM #8. Such a trick would allow writers to use or ignore past published stories at their whim and still be "within continuity" because both alternate versions feed the present. For example, it would rationalize the current BLACK PANTHER retcon. 
<<<

That would be equivalent to saying there is no past. 


watching: huckleberry hound

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Posted: 13 Jul 2005 02:11 am    
By Col_Fury

I finally got around to reading issue #3, & it seems more & more like an "AoA" scenario the farther it's getting. Wolverine remembers what the 'real' reality is, much like Bishop in AoA. Why bother having a character remember what things are supposed to be like if it's not going to revert? I may be optimistic here, but I don't think we have too much to worry about as far as massive ret-conning goes. 

However if it's going to keep the AoA tradition, we may see some characters cross over from this new reality(la X-Man, Dark Beast, etc), which *may* give that last page surprise a little more weight. I may be reading more into this than intended, but those are my initial thoughts.

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 13 Jul 2005 11:12 pm    Post subject: Quick question
By Col_Fury

Being a site mainly concerned with chronology, I was wondering if there is a grace period in posting about new books. I don't want to shabazz anyone, but if a new issue that just came out sheds light on standing questions, should I wait? I've noticed that some people announce that it may spoil a surprise then leave a space, others wait a few days before bringing it up. Personally, I try to read most of my Marvels before checking the boards, so usually I don't have anything to worry about. However I understand how it is to get behind on books.... I'm getting longwinded. So, grace period or warning space? Or don't even worry about it?

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Posted: 13 Jul 2005 11:57 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I would prefer a simple warning space myself. I see no need for a grace period, (we're often discussing new chronology ramifications immediately after a new issue has come out). 

Of course, we have sometimes not even bothered with warning spaces, (though I would prefer them myself on new issues). The thread posts that don't have warning spaces can usually do this without giving too much away, when they do as follows: in the title line of your thread post, you declare the new issue your discussing chronology about, (and it doesn't hurt to say "Spoilers!"). That way I know not to click on your thread till I've read the issue in question... 

Of course, that's just me personally, but I think it makes common sense...
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 14 Jul 2005 09:40 pm    
By Col_Fury

Works for me, thanks!

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 03:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'd agree with Kevin. By all means feel free to discuss newly-published issues - and, for that matter, obvious placement clues from preview pages of issues that haven't come out yet. But if that discussion involves spoilers, then mark them accordingly. (Selecting "Color = white" usually works adequately to stop anyone from reading the paragraph by mistake, even though it's still slightly legible over the light blue background.)
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 44

Posted: 13 Jul 2005 01:02 am    Post subject: finding comic book art
By poetdowns

Hey everyone, 
I was wondering if anyone knows about or has a fav place to go, to download art of comic book characters and artists. I've used a Google search a few times and it wasn't that productive. Regular jpegs or bitmap files you can put on your screen. You'd think that'd be easier to find but either it's not or i'm not doing something right (and i'm so tired of ending up at some porno site from hell) 

anon, 
Poet

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 05:35 pm    
By Batai

Try the Marvel Database Project , they have over 2500 images to browse around in... On the left bar, choose 'special pages', then on that page choose 'image list'... I think you may find what you are looking for...

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Posted: 17 Jul 2005 12:19 am    
By poetdowns

Thanks, i'll check it out. 

Poet

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Thread 45

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 10:29 am    Post subject: Coming from Marvel in October
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Surprisingly, released direct to Newsarama this time round. Marvel must have finally given up on trying to delay publication for stupid amounts of time. http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/oct05/Marvel0ct05.html 

The highlights:- 

- HOUSE OF M finishes. Crossover issues: HOUSE OF M #8, SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #5, WOLVERINE #34-35, HULK #8, UNCANNY X-MEN #465, NEW X-MEN #19, EXILES #71, MUTOPIA X #4 

- FRIENDLY NEIGHBOURHOOD SPIDER-MAN launches, and ploughs straight into the twelve-part "The Other" crossover with AMAZING and MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN. 

- SHE-HULK returns, bizarrely titled SHE-HULK 2 even though it's actually volume 4. Oh, and apparently with effect from issue #3 it becomes SHE-HULK #100, counting the issue numbers from volumes 2, 3 and 4, but not volume 1. Don't ask me... 

- NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS #1. Nick Fury leads a group of horror characters. Honest. Bizarrely, an ongoing title. Presumably they'll have sorted out the Nick Fury/SHIELD mess by this point - especially as the much-delayed SECRET WAR #5 is also solicited for November. Also, four MARVEL MONSTERS one-shots, and the HANDBOOK does horror characters. 

- SPIDER-MAN FAMILY ONE-SHOT seems to be the latest incarnation of GIANT-SIZE, with 8 original pages (of Spider-Girl) and a load of reprints. 

- AMAZING FANTASY #13-14 introduces Vegas, and brings back Captain Universe. 

- FANTASTIC FOUR/IRON MAN: BIG IN JAPAN #1 (of 4). Giant monsters. It's Zeb Wells and Seth Fisher, so it'll probably be quite good. 

- NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X YEARBOOK SPECIAL. A device to allow the outgoing writers to tie up some storylines in a one-shot. 

- X-MEN & POWER PACK #1 (of 4). Sequel to the current POWER PACK miniseries. 

- X-MEN and BLACK PANTHER are still crossing over. 

- BOOK OF LOST SOULS #1. Another Straczynski Icon book.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 22 Jul 2005 12:30 pm    
By michel

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
- SHE-HULK returns, bizarrely titled SHE-HULK 2 even though it's actually volume 4. Oh, and apparently with effect from issue #3 it becomes SHE-HULK #100, counting the issue numbers from volumes 2, 3 and 4, but not volume 1. Don't ask me... 


I don't see any mistake : 

Vol.1 : 25 issues 
Vol.2 : 60 issues 
Vol.3 : 12 issues 
Vol.4 : 3 issues 

25 + 60 + 12 + 3 = 100

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Posted: 22 Jul 2005 12:55 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Huh, you're right. Must have misread the panel report.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 22 Jul 2005 02:13 pm    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
- NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS #1. Nick Fury leads a group of horror characters. Honest. 


Did the intention change? I could'a sworn that Newsarama's interview with Keith Giffen said that Clay Quartermain was to be the leader. Course, that was before they added "Nick Fury's" to it. Presumably, taking a cue from the old Spider-Ham universe, his name should be "Nick Furry" in regard to this team! 

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Posted: 22 Jul 2005 08:33 pm    
By Ant-Man

So, according to this, Cassie Lang will be using the codename TITAN. I don't think that this has been previously revealed, has it? 

NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS #1...doesn't Keith Giffen have anything better to do? Oh yeah, he's also bringing us the Drax the Destroyer limited series. I see that this will include Vampire by Night from Amazing Fantasy, and the new Scorpion will be in Incredible Hulk #87, so it looks like some of the new characters introduced in Amazing Fantasy will start to be used in other books. 

THE SENTRY #2: "the Watchdog takes a bite out of the Wendigo!" -- I'll buy it just to see what the heck that is talking about 

MARVEL MONSTERS: MONSTERS ON THE PROWL: looking at the silver age costumes, hopefully this won't be tricky to place chronologically, but it looks like it could be a fun read anyway 

MARVEL MONSTERS: DEVIL DINOSAUR: come on, who doesn't like Devil Dinosaur? Well, maybe not everyone has a soft spot for the big red lizard, but seeing The Goon's Eric Powell handle the Hulk should be entertaining. 

NIGHTCRAWLER #11: "The startling journey into Nightcrawlers origin continues!" Maybe we'll get lucky and this will replace Draco!
