	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Taj-mania
2. TTA 64/2
3. Ghost Rider continuity questions
4. Nick Fury in SS 16-17
5. Secret War Continuity Alert!
6. Events of the Marvel Modern Age
7. Odin & Igron
8. Irene Adler (Destiny), same character from Sherlock Holmes?
9. Gabrielle Haller - BTS
10. Sandy Herkowitz
11. Marvel Double Features
12. A Few Notes From Comic-Con
13. Sgt Fury
14. Uncanny X-Men Annual #4 question about Nightcrawler's life
15. Iron Man #201-#250
16. Thinker FF 15-FB-BTS
17. Death in Kull Vale of the Shadow GN
18. Avengers Handbook 2005 notes
19. Prose novels cited in Handbooks and Encyclopedias
20. Lucifer, Belaso, and Nightmare notes, as well as Ludi and
21. Vision and Scarlet Witch II#5 ghosts
22. Chronology for Access
23. Additional appearance for X-Men 2013 (Days of Future Past)
24. Astonishing X-Men #11 [SPOILERS]
25. Uatu the Watche appearance
26. Marvel Timeline Years 1-8 as per X-Men Index
27. Spider-Man/New Avengers
28. WHAT IF...? as mainstream Earth-616 references
29. New Avengers #8 / House of M
30. Early chronology of Beast and Dark Beast
31. Dizzie, Mandrill, Nekra
32. Villains in Foes #5
33. Jakuna Singh, Agent of SHIELD
34. Doctor Bong/Man-Thing
35. Oblivion
36. Dracula in FF
37. Wolverine #31 clues!
38. Canonicity of appearances within non-Marvel media
39. X-Men I#1; some of those soldiers named in a Marvel Vision
40. Daredevil #76-81 and Spec Spidey v2 #21
41. Overlooked early chronological appearance for Space Phantom
42. Prester John note; the Marvel Fanfare.......
43. Arsenal II
44. 1986 Annuals and surrounding issues...
45. High Evolutionary Flashbacks
46. Fixed years

	Issue Analysis Forum
47. Giant-Size Spider-Woman #1
48. Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #6
49. Wolverine / Punisher #1-5
50. Chronology Review for Hulk Vol. 3 #82
51. Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #7
52. Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #9
53. Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #8
54. Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #10
55. Chronology Review for Gambit vol. 4 #10, 11, 12
56. Call for Analyses -- Upcoming comics
57. Mortigan Goth: Immortalis #1-4
58. Marvel Tales #256/2
59. Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #12
60. Captain America/Nick Fury: Blood Truce
61. Fury/Black Widow: Death Duty
62. Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1
63. Fury of SHIELD #1-4

	Chat Forum
64. where do superheros live?
65. Members Wanted
66. House of M problem
67. Favorite Characters: Thor




Thread 1

Posted: 30 Jul 2005 11:53 pm    Post subject: Taj-mania
By JLH

Why can I not find a listing for Taj, mute Hindu strongman/bodyguard of Rachel Van Helsing from "Tomb of Dracula", in the MCP? I know he doesn't speak a lick, but he does appear in nearly every issue I've read so far.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2005 11:53 pm    
By SeanCurtin

A number of major Tomb of Dracula characters who only appeared in that series don't have entries; others (like Blade's girlfriend Safron and Deacon Frost) have entries that reflect only their most recent appearances. I've been going through the Essential reprints looking for missing entries and appearances, and here's what I have for Taj so far: 

NITAL, TAJ 
TOD 29-FB 
{TOD 3} 
TOD 4 (up to last page panel 5) 
TOD 5 (page 1) 
TOD 4 (last page panels 6-7) 
TOD 5 (pages 2+) 
TOD 6 
TOD 7 
TOD 8 
TOD 9 
TOD 12 
TOD 13 
TOD 14 
TOD 21 
GSCH 1 (note that the Harker/Taj scene in this issue occurs before TOD 23, while the Dracula scenes occur immediately prior to TOD 24) 
TOD 23 
TOD 24 
TOD 26 
TOD 27 
TOD 28 
TOD 29 
TOD 31 
TOD 32 
TOD 33 
TOD 34 
NS 17 
NS 18 

-Sean

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 12:52 am    
By JLH

Just what I was looking for. Great stuff, thanks!

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Thread 2

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 10:47 am    Post subject: TTA 64/2
By Dhall

JOHNSON, LYNDON BAINES 
**TTA 64/2 
**TTA 68/2 
TTA 88/2 
ST 155 
**NFAOS 11 
CA:SL 1-FB

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Thread 3

Posted: 01 Aug 2005 10:34 pm    Post subject: Ghost Rider continuity questions
By d_f_cornish

Does anybody have any idea where the MarvelUK appearances of Ghost Rider - Gun Runner issues 1&2, and somewhere else - appear in his continuity? 

How about his stories in the Marvel Holiday specials? 

How about in issue 3 of Spider-man:Hit And Run? 

I'd appreciate your help if any body knows...
_________________
They give birth astride of the grave. 
~Samuel Beckett

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 12:48 am    
By JLH

d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
Does anybody have any idea where the MarvelUK appearances of Ghost Rider - Gun Runner issues 1&2, and somewhere else - appear in his continuity? 
<<<

I think it's MCP policy that the MarvelUK universe stuff tends to be non-canon. So it shouldn't count. 


d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
How about his stories in the Marvel Holiday specials? 
<<<

Uhh, clearly they take place at Christmas! Err, yeah...  


d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
How about in issue 3 of Spider-man:Hit And Run? 
<<<

I thought that was already in the MCP, since it was published just prior to the gap. Or maybe it was just afterwards...

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 05:22 am
By Paul O'Brien
Director

JLH wrote: 
>>>
I think it's MCP policy that the MarvelUK universe stuff tends to be non-canon. So it shouldn't count. 
<<<

The Marvel UK books are all emphatically canon, and have repeatedly been referenced as such by the Handbook (and various mainstream Marvel comics, such as HULK and EXCALIBUR). They simply haven't been analysed yet, because they came out at around the same time as the gap, and they're almost uniformly abysmal, to such a degree that even MCP volunteers can't summon up the willpower to actually read the damn things again.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 06:07 am    
By d_f_cornish

Some more questions from the MCP listing for Ghost Rider 3 to be added to those above: 

Why is issue 18 listed twice - is there something I can't see? 

Why is only the Ghost Rider issues of Road To Vengeance:The Missing Link mentioned, and not the Spirits of Vengeance issues? Is that part of the Gap? 

Where does Devil's Due/Top Cow cross-over happen? 

What about Code Of Honor #4 - is that GR3 #1? 

Slapstick #4 - canon? 

Where does WOlverine #89 fit in (I haven't got it yet)? 

Why was Werewolf By Night #6 removed? 

And yes, I know the Marvel Holiday Specials were at Christmas, ha-ha, it is to laugh, but where do they fit inbetween (or during) issues?
_________________
They give birth astride of the grave. 
~Samuel Beckett

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 06:16 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I moved this thread out of the Issue Analysis forum and into Marvel Universe forum.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 07:21 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
Why is only the Ghost Rider issues of Road To Vengeance:The Missing Link mentioned, and not the Spirits of Vengeance issues? Is that part of the Gap? 
<<<

When was it published? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 07:46 pm    
By Starman

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The Marvel UK books are all emphatically canon, and have repeatedly been referenced as such by the Handbook (and various mainstream Marvel comics, such as HULK and EXCALIBUR). They simply haven't been analysed yet, because they came out at around the same time as the gap, and they're almost uniformly abysmal, to such a degree that even MCP volunteers can't summon up the willpower to actually read the damn things again. 
<<<

I could make an attempt with my Death's Head II and Warhead comics if analyzes are needed... (Hmm... I just got a deja vu feeling... )
_________________
John Hartigan: 
"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 10:00 pm
By SeanCurtin

d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
Why is issue 18 listed twice - is there something I can't see? 
<<<

Possibly the appearances listed between the two instances of GR3 18 occur between pages of that issue. 


Quote: 
>>>
Slapstick #4 - canon? 
<<<

Yes, as Slapstick reappeared in Marvel Comics Presents. Given Marvel Boy's presence, Slapstick #4 would have to occur around the timeframe of GR3 18-20 at the latest. 

-Sean

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Posted: 03 Aug 2005 01:18 am  
By JLH

d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
Where does Devil's Due/Top Cow cross-over happen? 
<<<

After Ghost Rider gets his new costume, but before he brings back his old one. 


d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
What about Code Of Honor #4 - is that GR3 #1?  
<<<

What you're asking does not make sense grammatically. 


d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
Where does WOlverine #89 fit in (I haven't got it yet)? 
<<<

It takes place right before, or right after, that issue of Ghost Rider where Wolverine shows up. You should know the one, it was before the "In Chains" arc, but after issue 50. 


d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
Why was Werewolf By Night #6 removed? 
<<<

...Was the 1997 WbN book EVER in the MCP? 


d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
And yes, I know the Marvel Holiday Specials were at Christmas, ha-ha, it is to laugh, but where do they fit inbetween (or during) issues? 
<<<

Obviously. But since those books are in the gap, I guess we won't know until Rusty updates it!

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Thread 4

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 08:21 pm    Post subject: Nick Fury in SS 16-17
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, lets see if I can lay this out logically... 

1) Cap appears in A 80-82 between CA 132 and CA 133, according to the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers (OMITA) and the MCP. 
2) A 80-82 take a few days to occur. 
3) CA 133 occurs during one day and the next morning; it begins a few days after CA 132 (in-story reference  Modoks dialog). 
Thus, CA 132 and CA 133 must straddle A 80-82 very closely. 

1) Iron Man appears in CA 133, but his next appearance after A 82 (according to OMITA and the MCP) is in the last part of IM 22. 
2) The last part of IM 21 leads directly into IM 22. 
Thus, Iron Man must appear in CA 133 after IM 22 (and this is reflected in the MCP). 

Given the few days between CA 132 and 133... 
Then CA 132, A 80-82, IM 21-22, and CA 133 must occur in very quick succession. 

The MCP places Iron Man in SS 17 between IM 22 and CA 133. If that placement is true... 
Then SS 17 joins the quick succession of Shellheads appearances following A 82. 

Given the quick follow-up to A 82... 
Then Im inclined to think that IM 21-22, SS 17, and CA 133 occur before A 83. 

1) A 83 occurs on Halloween. 
2) E:A 6 occurs over the course of three days, the last of which is election day, the Tuesday after the first Monday in November. 
Thus, A 83 occurs before E:A 6. 

If SS 17 likely occurs before A 83... 
Then it should occur before E:A 6. 

1) Nick Fury appears in E:A 3-5 during the week or so before the E:A 6 election issue 
2) CA 132 occurs before the A 83 Halloween issue 
Thus, Nick Fury must appear in CA 132 before E:A 3 (and this is supported by the MCP) 

If SS 17 is among the quick succession of comics that follow CA 132 as noted above... 
Then Nick should appear in SS 17 before E:A 3. 

However, the MCP lists Nick Fury in SS 16-17 after E:A 7. 

I think SS 16-17 should be moved to a spot between CA 132 and E:A 3 in Nick Furys chronology. Conversely, SS 17 might be moved to a spot later in Iron Mans chronology, but I suspect that would create problems, given published before and after appearances for him. 

Thoughts?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2005 09:25 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Ah. Here's your problem with Fury's placement! I started with Issue Analysis forum!  

I don't have all the issues you're citing, but your changes don't impact Fury's placement in FFWGCM, as CA 133 occurs before the series anyway. At least, so long as we say that FFWGCM occurs before IM 33.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2005 08:59 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
At least, so long as we say that FFWGCM occurs before IM 33. 
<<<

Yes, here's my suggested chronology for Nick Fury during this time period: 

CA 132 
SS 16 
SS 17 
E:A 3 
E:A 4 
E:A 5 
E:A 6 
E:A 7 
FFWGCM 6 
FFWGCM 7 
FFWGCM 11 
FFWGCM 12-BTS 
IM 33 

These appearances take us from late October to early December of Peter Parker's sophomore year of college.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 5

Posted: 27 Jul 2005 02:47 pm    Post subject: Secret War Continuity Alert!
By Kevin W.
Director

I just read the following bit from Bendis over at Newsarama: 

He was asked this question: "When's secret war #5 out? has Dell'Otto got anything else planned?" 

Bendis's reply: "Its solicited for October. Not October 2003, but what can you do? I rewrote a lot of it so it fits into whats going on in the marvel u today especially in NA as so many of the characters connect to what has happened there. It has repercussions in other books and it will definitely pay off for those of you who hung in there." 

So those of you who are waiting on Secret War #5 to clear up the confusion on when the events of this miniseries take place, beware! Sounds like there is going to be a huge discrepency between the temporal clues in the early issues of Secret War and the temporal clues in Secret War #5...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 08:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

All I can say is..."Ugh."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 11:02 pm    
By shandrakor

Yeah, that'd sum up my feelings on the subject as well...

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 11:05 pm    
By JLH

I dunno, I read that to imply some adding framing sequence of some kind to put it into perspective, like the characters recall the end of the war, and the ramifacations in the present are highlighted. 

...Naaaaaah. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jul 2005 01:21 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Since NEW AVENGERS #1-6 plainly follow SECRET WAR, I think it's more likely that Bendis simply means he's rewritten the story to take account of where the characters are going.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 04 Aug 2005 08:45 pm    
By U-Man

I dunno... It doesn't seem unlikely that NA would "plainly follow" Secret War but SW #5 would "plainly follow" NA. It may seem unlikely that Bendis would contradict HIMSELF, but consider who we're dealing with here...

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 03 Aug 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: Events of the Marvel Modern Age
By Sijo

I've been trying to find an online list of the important events in the Modern Marvel Era (that is, post-FF #1) for my fanwriting purposes. Recently I found this one at the "History of Marvel Comics" site. However, it was poorly organized and full of semantic errors (at least the English version- the site seems to be run by a French fan) so I decided to do a cleaner version myself. While I find it fairly complete (well, except for most incidents involving villains, but I'll work on those later) I fear it might contain errors of placement; for example, I know that FF#1 came out on November 1961, not August (or is that the just the cover date?) and that Rom the Spaceknight began on 1979, not 1974. So, I'm posting my version here, hoping you people can help me correct any errors you find. 

Note: 
*you can find the original site here: http://g.courtial.free.fr/marvelstory/index.htm 
*The original list also included a section on Golden Age Marvel Heroes that I'm not including here. 
*The list only covers up to 1986. I need more information on the years after that. 
*The near-entirety of the text is the same, except for minor edits I made. 
*I believe that when the author says 'creation of' a character (but doesn't give an issue number) he means that he or she first appeared in the first issue of their own series. 

1961 
August 
Creation of the FANTASTIC FOUR 

1962 
January 
Creation of HULK 
First appearance of Ant Man in Tales to Astonish 27 
February 
Return of Submariner in Fantastic four 4 
June 
Creation of THOR (Journey into Mystery 83) 
First appearance of SPIDER-MAN in Amazing Fantasy 15 . Beginning of the series Ant Man (Tales to Astonish 35) 
August 
First appearance of Balder and Odin (Journey into Mystery 85) 
October 
Beginning of the series Human Torch in Strange Tales 101 
December 
Beginning of the series SPIDER-MAN 
Creation of IRON MAN (Tales of Suspense 39) 

1963 
January 
First appearance of the Watcher in Fantastic four 13 
March 
Creation of Sergeant Fury (=Nick Fury in his youth) 
April 
First appearance of the Wasp at Ant Man's in Tales to Astonish 44 
July 
Creation of the X-MEN; 

Creation of the AVENGERS 
First appearance of Doctor Strange in Strange Tales 110 
September 
First appearance in present of Nick Fury in Fantastic Four 21 
Ant Man becomes Giant Man (Tales to Astonish 49) 
November 
Beginning of the series Doctor Strange in Strange Tales 114 

1964 
January 
Return of CAPTAIN AMERICA in Avengers 4 
First appearance of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch in X-Men 4 
February 
First appearance of Black Widow at Iron Man's in Tales of suspense 52; 
Creation of DAREDEVIL 
June 
First appearance of Hawkeye at Iron Man's in Tales of Suspense 57 
August 
First appearance of Wonder Man in Avengers 9; 
Beginning of the series Captain America (Tales of suspense 59) 

1965 
January 
First appearance of Ka Zar in X-men 10 
First appearance of Medusa in Fantastic Four 36 
March 
Replacement of Avengers member with a new team (after that, team changes will be numberless) 
June 
Beginning of the series Submariner (Tales to Astonish 70) 
First appearance of the "Warriors 3" in (Journey into mystery with) Thor 119 
First appearance of Swordsman in Avengers 19 
August 
Creation of the series NICK FURY, agent of the SHIELD (Strange Tales 135) 
First appearance of the Inhumans in Fantastic Four 44 
December 
First appearance of the SILVER SURFER in Fantastic four 48 . First appearance of Hercules in Thor Annual 1 

1966 
April 
First appearance of Black Panther in Fantastic Four 52 
November 
Return of the Human Torch of the forties in Fantastic Four Annual 4 
First appearance of Banshee in X-Men 28 

1967 
July 
First appearance of Him (future WARLOCK) in Fantastic four 67 
September 
Beginning of the first series Inhumans in Thor 148 
November 
Resurrection in super hero of the Black Knight of 1955 -56 in Avengers 48 
December 
Creation of CAPTAIN MARVEL (Marvel Super Heroes 12) 

1968 
May 
Beginning of the series SILVER SURFER 
August 
First appearance of Polaris in X-Men 48 
First appearance of Vision in Avengers 57 
October 
Birth of Franklin Richard in Fantastic Four Annual 6 
December 
First appearance of the Guardians of the Galaxy in Marvel Super Heroes 18 

1969 
April 
First appearance of Havok in X-Men 58 
June 
First appearance of Falcon in Captain America 117 (becoming "Captain America and the Falcon ") 
July 
First appearance of Stingray in Submariner 19 
August 
First appearance of Nighthawk in Avengers 69 
September 
First appearance of the Prowler in Spider-Man 78 
October 
First appearance of Sunfire in X-Men 64 
Captain Marvel changes his costume, his side, his powers, and his secret id. 
November 
First appearance of the Squadron Sinister in Avengers 70 

1970 
August 
Beginning of the series Ka-Zar and Doctor Doom (Astonishing Tales 1) 
September 
First appearance of Red Wolf in Avengers 80 
October 
Creation of (the comic adaptation of) CONAN the Barbarian 
December 
First appearance of the Valkyrie in Avengers 83 

1971 
July 
First appearance of Doc Samson in Hulk 141 
October 
First appearance of Morbius the vampire in Amazing Spider-Man 101 

1972 
February 
Creation of Werewolf by Night (Marvel Spotlight 2) 
March 
Beginning of the Beasts series (the ex X-man is redesigned werewolf-like) Amazing Adventures 11 
April 
Creation of (the comic adaptation of) Dracula 
Beginning of the series WARLOCK (Marvel Premiere 1) 
June 
Creation of Luke Cage. 
First appearance of Namorita (Submariner 54) 
August 
Creation of Ghost Rider (Marvel Spotlight 5) and of the Defenders 
September 
Return as bad guy of the Captain America of the fifties in Captain America 141 
October 
Creation of MAN THING (Adventure into Fear 10) 
Daredevil becomes Daredevil and Black Widow. 
Creation (comic adaptation) of Doc Savage 
December 
First appearance. of Thundra (Fantastic four 127). 
Creation of Shanna and of the Cat; 
First appearance of the true Valkyrie. Defenders 4 (The 1970 one was an impostor) 

1973 
January 
Creation of (the comic adaptation of) Frankenstein 
February 
First appearance of Drax in Iron Man 55 
June 
First appearance of Mantis in Avengers 112 
July 
First appear. Starfox (Captain Marvel 27) 
Beginning series Black Panther (Jungle Action 5) 
September 
First appearance Man Wolf ( Spider-Man 124) 
Creation of Brother Voodoo (Strange Tales 169) 
October 
Creation Son of Satan (Marvel Spotlight 12) 
First appearance of Wundarr (at Man Thing's in Adventures into Fear 17) 
December 
Creation of Shang Chi, Master of Kung Fu (Special Marvel Edition 15) 
First appearance of Howard the Duck at Man Thing's in Adventures into Fear 19 

1974 
February 
First appearance of the PUNISHER in Amazing Spider-Man 129 . Beginning of the series Morbius (Adventure into fear 20) 
March 
First appearance of Moon Dragon in Captain Marvel 31 
May 
Creation of Iron Fist (Marvel Premiere 15) 
July 
First appearance of Firelord (Thor 225) and 
Tigra (ex Cat) Giant Size creatures1 
Beginning of the series Man-Wolf (Creatures on the loose 30) 
August 
Creation of Deathlock (Astonishing Tales 25) 
October 
First appearance of WOLVERINE in Hulk 180 
December 
Transformation into a comic series of the toy Rom, paid by its maker 

1975 
February 
First appearance of Madrox (Giant Size Fantastic Four 4) and of 
Black Goliath (Luke Cage 24) 
July 
Creation of the new X-MEN (Giant Size X-Men 1) 
August 
New X-Men replace the former ones' reprints; 
First appearance of Moon Knight in Werewolf by Night 32 
October 
Creation of the Champions 
December 
A travel in time introduces western hero Two Guns Kid to the super heroes' world- Avengers 142 

1976 
January 

Beginning of the series Howard the Duck 
February 
Beginning of the series Tigra (Marvel Chillers 3) Guardians of 
the Galaxy (Marvel Presents 3) Black Goliath; First appearance of Hellcat in Avengers 144 
March 
Creation of Omega the Unknown 
June 
First appearance of Human Fly in Spider-Man Annual 10 
July 
Creation of the Eternals (Kirby's come back to Marvel) and of 
Nova 
October 
Marvel Girl becomes PHOENIX in X-Men 101 
December 
Creation of Doctor Druid (Weird Wonder Tales 19) 

1977 
January 
Creation of Ms Marvel 
February 
First appearance of Spider-Woman in Marvel Spotlight 32 
April 
Creation of 3D Man (Marvel Premiere 35) 
First appearance Devil Slayer (Marvel Spotlight 33) 
July 
Creation of Mister Machine (future Machine Man) in 2001 Space Odyssey 8 
August 
First appearance of Jocasta in Avengers 162 
October 
First appearance of Gladiator and of the Starjammers in X-Men 107 
December 
Beginning of the Torpedo series in Marvel Premiere 39 

1978 
January 
First appearance of the Paladin in Daredevil 150 
April 
Beginning of the series Machine Man and Spider-Woman 

1979 
January 
Beginning of the series Micronauts 
February 
Creation of the Shogun Warriors 
April 
First appearance of ALPHA FLIGHT in X-Men 120 
July 
First appearance of BLACK CAT- Amazing Spider-Man 194 

1980 
January 
First appearance of Kitty Pride in X-Men 129 
February 
First appearance of Dazzler in X-Men 130 
Creation of She Hulk 
July 
First appearance of Mocking Bird in Marvel Team Up 95 
November 
Beginning of the series Moon Knight; 
introduction to the super heroes' world of the western hero of the sixties Ghost Rider (renamed Night Rider) in Ghost Rider 50 
December 
Creation of (comic adaptation) Doctor Who (Marvel Premiere 57) 

1981 
January 
First appearance of Elektra in Daredevil 168 
March 
Beginning of the series Dazzler; First appearance of Cloak and Dagger- Spectacular Spider-Man 64 
August 
First appearance of Rogue in Avengers 210 

1982 
April 
First appearance of the Team America in Captain America 269 
June 
First appearance of Rachel (future new Phoenix) in X-Men 158 
July 
First appearance of Magik in X-Men 159 
December 
First appearance of the new Captain Marvel in Spider-Man Annual 16 

1983 
March 
Creation of the New Mutants 
May 
First appearance of the Morlocks in X-Men 169 
June 
First appearance of Nomad in Captain America 294 
July 
Rogue changes sides, joins the X-Men 
August 
Beginning of the series Alpha Flight 
October 
Beginning of the series Cloak and Dagger 

1984 
January 
First appearance of Magma in New Mutants 11 
Beginning of the Jack of Heart series 
February 
Mini series Elektra: Assassin 
April 
First appearance of the second Spider-Woman during Secret Wars 
August 
First appearance of Warlock (No relation with Adam Warlock ex Him) 
and of Cipher in New Mutants 18 
Creation of Power Pack 
September 
Creation of the West Coast Avengers 
Creation of the Transformers 
November 
First appearance of Jeffries Madison in Alpha Flight 16 

1985 
September 
Beginning of the series Squadron Supreme 
Creation of Longshot 

1986 
January 
Creation of X Factor 
Beginning of the series Punisher 
May 
First appearance of the second Ms Marvel in Thing 35 
October 
First appearance of Meggan in New Mutants 44

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 11:58 am    
By rhod

You can scrub the bottom line for starters, Meggan's first appearance was in a Captain Britain story in an issue of Daredevils. I'll get round to posting analyses for the entire Moore run one of these days.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 01:04 pm    
By Ant-Man

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
Creation of MAN THING (Adventure into Fear 10) 
<<<

Adventure Into Fear #10 was the first time that Man-Thing headlined a book, but it wasn't his first appearance, so you might be right about the author's use of "Creation". You would think that the list might also include true first appearances in this case. 


Sijo wrote: 
>>>
Creation of (comic adaptation) Doctor Who (Marvel Premiere 57) 
<<<

Marvel Premiere #57 was released just over one year after The Doctor's first Marvel appearance in Doctor Who Weekly #1 from Marvel UK. This should be listed as his first US appearance. His actual first comic adaptation (non-Marvel) was sometime in the mid-1960's

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 07:38 pm    
By Sijo

Ant Man: Do you know the issue and date of the Man-Thing's first appearance? 

Rhod: Apparently the author either doesn't know about the British Marvel comics, or didn't want to include them. However, I DO believe them to be part of the Mavel Continuity and I want to add them to my list. So, any help would be appreciated. 

Questions: 
*Wasn't Drax the Destroyer's first appearance also the first appearance of THANOS? Now that I consider major! (I think the Blood Brothers were also there.) 
*Did Nick Fury start as Director of SHIELD or was he elected in a later issue? 
*What issue of X-Men did Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch leave Magneto to join The Avengers? 
*When did the Celestial Madonna event take place? And the Korvac saga? 
*Did the Guardians of the Galaxy's first appearance take place in the present or in the 30th Century? 

I'll think of more later.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 07:46 pm    
By Ant-Man

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
Ant-Man: Do you know the issue and date of the Man-Thing's first appearance? 
<<<

Savage Tales #1 
May 1971

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Posted: 04 Aug 2005 08:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The answers to some of these questions are already in the Project, if you'll look. 

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
*Wasn't Drax the Destroyer's first appearance also the first appearance of THANOS? 
<<<

This one, for instance. 


Sijo wrote: 
>>>
*Did Nick Fury start as Director of SHIELD or was he elected in a later issue? 
<<<

Not sure what you mean by "did he start as Director?", but he was named as Director in ST 135. 


Sijo wrote: 
>>>
*What issue of X-Men did Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch leave Magneto to join The Avengers? 
<<<

They left Magneto in UX 11, and joined the Avengers in A 16. 


Sijo wrote: 
>>>
*Did the Guardians of the Galaxy's first appearance take place in the present or in the 30th Century? 
<<<

30th century. 


Sijo wrote: 
>>>
I'll think of more later. 
<<<

This is generally not the place to ask about plot elements of past stories. It's really not what we're about, here. I would imagine that the denizens of r.a.c.m.u. on usenet, or Alvaro's Message Boards could answer any questions you could possible think of, when it comes to plot elements. 


watching: first 48

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Posted: 04 Aug 2005 10:55 pm    
By Sijo

Ant Man: Much obligued.  

Administrator: I'm trying to locate the specific issues where these events took place, -including dates of publication- so I can intercalate them with each other. Not trying to discuss the actual plots. Some discussion HAS to take place, however, as I've heard contradictions about, for example, Fury being the man behind the Creation of SHIELD, vs his being CHOSEN by it. (And even that it was Tony Stark who started SHIELD!) It strikes me as odd that Fury would form SHIELD but not be its first director, so, I asked if there was an issue of STRANGE TALES where he was shown as being appointed Director. 

As for the Guardians, I wanted to find if their first comics appearance counted as their first visit to the present or not. (and if not, in which issue of what comic it would then be.)

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Posted: 05 Aug 2005 01:15 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
It strikes me as odd that Fury would form SHIELD but not be its first director, so, I asked if there was an issue of STRANGE TALES where he was shown as being appointed Director. 
<<<

Well, let me put your mind at ease. Unless there's been some massive retcon, he didn't form SHIELD. 


watching: crossing jordan

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Posted: 05 Aug 2005 01:25 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sijo wrote: 
>>>
Administrator: I'm trying to locate the specific issues where these events took place, -including dates of publication- so I can intercalate them with each other. Not trying to discuss the actual plots. Some discussion HAS to take place, however, 
<<<

I'm just cautioning you that you should be prepared not to receive answers to your questions about the plot elements of specific issues, since it's not what we're about here. If you have questions about plot elements (and "What issue did so-and-so occur?" is a question about plot developments)--and you indicated that more questions were coming, you may or may not get the answers you're looking for here. If someone here knows, and answers, then that's great. But we don't profess to be the experts on the history of plot elements here. And I was pointing out other sources that are better equipped to answer your questions with authority. 

And yes, I understand that the chronological discussions can hinge on the answers to your questions, but just be prepared that some of your questions might not be answered here, whereas they will almost *certainly* be answered at racmu or Alvaro. Once the questions are answered, then we can participate in a chronological discussion. I wasn't saying, "Don't ask these questions here." I was simply pointing out that this probably isn't the best place to get the answers you're looking for. 


watching: crossing jordan

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Thread 7

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Odin & Igron
By rhod

Can anyone tell me why Odin & Igron aren't listed in Thor 245 -250? (Actually I can't find a listing for Igron at all). I don't have any issues of Thor for a long time after this, did they turn out to be somebody else?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 01:15 pm    
By Ant-Man

The "Odin" in those issues turned out to be Mangog. 
I don't think that he appeared in #245.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 01:46 pm    Post subject: Irene Adler (Destiny), same character from Sherlock Holmes?
By wolframbane

In OHMU: Book of the Dead, the deceased character of Destiny (aka Irene Adler), formerly of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, has been described as a mutant woman of great age, apparenly born into a wealthy family in the 19th century. 

This desciption would also seem to match another character by the name of Irene Adler, a character from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes tale, 'A Scandal in Bohemia'. She was often described by Holmes as 'the woman' whom he became infatuated with in the late 19th century. 

Is there any indication the two Irene Adlers are one and the same. And for that matter, is there any reference to Holmes himself existing as a canon charcter in the Marvel universe?

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 02:03 pm    
By Ant-Man

I discussed this topic with a friend of mine about 10 years ago. He read DC Comics' Eclipso, and he told me that the Holmes character Irene Adler appeared in issues 7 and 8 of Eclipso. I was a little curious to read those issues, and he told me that he would lend me his copies, but I never got an opportunity to read them. I've never read any Sherlock Holmes stories, so I wasn't aware of that character until he brought her to my attention. 

We chalked it up to a coincidence, and decided that there was little chance that they were intended to be the same character. 

Holmes has made several appearances in DC books, but I can't recall any Marvel stories that have included him, other than Marvel Preview 5 and 6, which adapted The Hound of the Baskervilles, if I recall.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 02:44 pm    
By Dhall

Well you figured out where Chris Claremont got the name from.....

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 05:56 pm    
By Enda80

Clive Reston from MOKF is obviously supposed to be related to Sherlock Holmes. (An ancestor who was a sleuth who enjoyed the violin and beekeeping.) Though issues of Master of Kung-Fu very heavily imply that Sherlock Holmes existed on Earth-616, other characters have referred to him as fictional. 

In ASM @14, Spider-Man referred to Sherlock Holmes as apparently a fictional character, as he did Spider-Man I#26 (guest-starring Captain Britain, Sherlock Holmes was mentioned, with it stated that there never was a 221 B Baker Street). On page 11 of Marvel Year In Review 1990 someone writes "Who could write Sherlock Holmes stories as well as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle?". In Doom 2099#9 or #12, Doom 2099 encountered a virtual reality version of Professor Moriarty, a character from the SH series (I cannot recall whether he stated whether or not Moriarty was fictional). Reed Richards once referred to the Giant Rat of Sumatra. 


Actually, similar situation exists with Godzilla, active in the 1950's and then again in the modern era on Earth-616. Saga of the Original Human Torch#4, the Jim Hammond Torch did make a bit of a slip by apparently referring to Godzilla as fictional. My solution; as in the real world, the Earth-616 Godzilla films lurched into Godzilla vs. Megalon (the worst entry to many, though budget video producers have made widely available at Building 19, the dollar store, flea markets, and Buck a Book, and the .99 cent bin), so that many people forgot that there had once been a real Godzilla, his fame eclipsed by other monsters since. 

So, as stated earlier, if in any comic published from 1961 to 1976 or so has someone mentioning Godzilla, we can say that they were aware of him through fictionalized movies that distorted the truth, especially Godzilla versus Megalon. (Perhaps, after a while, the Japanese government started a disinformation campaign to get people to think that Godzilla was only a movie character.) 

Perhaps the same thing happened with Sherlock Holmes. Perhaps Watson used Doyle as his literary agent on Earth-616. Over time, as the B-movie Holmes films came out, Holmes' status as real person on Earth-616 was forgotten. 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1180&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45 

........................................ 
Enda80 wrote: 
However, Clive Reston from MOKF is obviously supposed to be related to Sherlock Holmes. (An ancestor who was a sleuth who enjoyed the violin and beekeeping.) 

Administrator 

I always interpreted that as an affectation by Reston, and always pictured Shang Chi, Leiko, Blackjack, and anyone else within earshot of rolling their eyes behind Reston's back, whenever he brought up the subject. 
.......................................................

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 07:24 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Relatively recent flashbacks in a Claremont-scripted comic (either Excalibur or UXM, I forget) showed Mystique at the turn of the century acting as a 'consulting detective' while partnered with Irene Adler. Whether that's just another allusion to the source of the name or Claremont is hinting that Holmes was really Mystique is up in the air. 

There was a character in one of the black-and-white magazines who thought that he was Holmes; the name escapes me. An alternate universe Holmes-like character (a cockroach named Hemlock Shoals) appeared in the Howard the Duck Magazine. 

-Sean

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Posted: 03 Aug 2005 03:34 am    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hodiahtwist.htm 

Hodiah Twist is who you had in mind. 

However, Hodiah Twist brings in another problem. 

(Amazing Adventures#32 - fb?) - In the future on Earth-Killraven, Hawk (one of Killraven's Freemen) remembers how "in 1995" (when Hawk was 15, "over twenty years" ago), his father (name unrevealed) liked to immerse himself - to the point of addiction - in the virtual reality universe of the world of Hodiah Twist. 

The specific adventure referenced here is one where Twist and Conrad Jeavons have traveled to England (presumably?) to investigate the murders attributed to the Hellhound of Ravenflight. Twist believed that the murders were the work of a human murderer who had taken pains to make them look like a beast's. But as Twist expounded his theory, he was suddenly attacked by a very real Hellhound. The virtual reality story then stopped as Hawk's father's heart gave way and he passed away uttering the words, "This was one helluva story." 


The "reality" of Hodiah Twist: In the Earth-Killraven story, Hawk accuses his father of becoming addicted to the Hodiah Twist VR dramas, using them to escape an unbearable reality - which is of course a mirror-image of the origins of Hodiah Twist - and Hawk says, "This Hodiah Twist was never real." His father responds, "He was always real." Then Hawk retorts, "And he's a racist," to which his Father replies, "First, he's not real, now he's a racist. You can't have it both ways." 

Since this appearance in Killraven is the only thing that connects the Hodiah Twist stories to the Marvel Universe, one is led to the inference that, on Earth-Killraven, Hodiah Twist was either an entirely fictional character (who was himself based upon another fictional character) or a real-life character, whose exploits had been fictionalized (e.g.  la Reilly Ace of Spies, for example). 

Further, in the Marvel Preview story, Jeffrey asks Twist if he is a hero, like "Doc Savage or The Shadow" and Twist responds, "I'm not familiar with either of those gentlemen". Later when Jeffrey mentions Hopalong Cassidy, Twists reacts in the same fashion. Again, there is an ambiguity: is Jeffrey referring to "real" heroes or "fictional characters"? Certainly Doc Savage did exist in the Marvel Universe, and there has been several Doc Savage / The Shadow crossovers... 

However, since none of those Doc Savage/Shadow crossovers were published by Marvel, they would not count for Earth-616 canon. Spider-Man referred to the Shadow as fictional in ASM#101 and later in #262 or so. Copies of the Shadow magazine were seen in a Nigth Raven story (the first one with Yi Yang, I think) and in the Earth-616 Doc Savage stories. As for Hopalong Cassidy, the Hangman (Harlan Krueger) remembered watching those films as a youth.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2005 07:29 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Just as there are comic book adventures of the Fantastic Four in "Earth-616", I believe several of the original Doc Savage novels made reference to licensed novelizations of Doc's adventures. In the original Doc Savage universe, he was both real and fictional. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 03 Aug 2005 12:57 pm    
By ShadZ

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Relatively recent flashbacks in a Claremont-scripted comic (either Excalibur or UXM, I forget) showed Mystique at the turn of the century acting as a 'consulting detective' while partnered with Irene Adler. Whether that's just another allusion to the source of the name or Claremont is hinting that Holmes was really Mystique is up in the air. 
<<<

Wow. The Earth-616 Sherlock Holmes was really just an alias for Mystique. That would be cool & twisted, if true.
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2005 02:04 pm    
By wolframbane

Speculations... 

IF Destiny is the same Irene Adler that was Holmes' love, AND Mystique was Sherlock Holmes (OHMU Book of the Dead said Destiny contacted the detective Mystique after writing her journals) AND Clive Reston was being honest when he claimed to be the great nephew of Sherlock Holmes... 

This could make Mystique the great aunt/uncle of Clive Reston... 

On a further note, Mystique is also known as Raven Dark-HOLME!!!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2005 07:05 pm    
By Sijo

ShadZ wrote: 
>>>
Wow. The Earth-616 Sherlock Holmes was really just an alias for Mystique. That would be cool & twisted, if true. 
<<<

Not as twisted as having Irene and Mystique be lovers, with Mystique changing into male form to conceive Nightcrawler with her! (making Irene Kurt's mother and Mystique his FATHER!) 

No that's not canon, but I read somewhere that Claremont at least considered the idea. Not that Marvel would have ever let it fly.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 12:44 am    
By SeanCurtin

ShadZ wrote: 
>>>
Wow. The Earth-616 Sherlock Holmes was really just an alias for Mystique. That would be cool & twisted, if true. 
<<<

Alternately, the real Holmes died at Reichenbach Falls, and Mystique just picked up where he left off. She does have a history of using the identites of the recently deceased. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 09:53 am    
By wolframbane

Actually, even though his death was depicted at Reichenbach Falls in 'The Final Problem', this was not actually Holmes' death. 

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle decided to kill off Holmes, as he had tired of the character and wanted to focus on other fictional stories. So he had Holmes have a final confrntation with Moriarty at Reichenbach Falls, where they wrestled at the edge of the cliff and both fell to their deaths. But both the public and Doyle's publishers had not had enough of Sherlock Holmes and Doyle on had limited success with his other writings, no where near as popular as Holmes. So Doyle ressurected the character and reluctantly brought him back in 'The Adventure of the Empty House', where we find that Holmes had survived the fight at Reichenbach Falls. After Watson left, he climbed back up the cliff and let Watson and the world believe he was dead for several years. He continued his crimefighting in secret under the alias Sigerson, before returning four years later to continues his adventures with Watson. And thus Doyle continued his stories. 

Ironic though, how the theme of surviving a fall over a waterfall only to reappear miraculously alive later reappears in Mystiques's life. In X-Men Unlimited #4, Mystique fell to her apparent death from a dam after it was revealed that she was the mother of Nightcrawler and Graydon Creed. That same issue has her throwing her infant son Nightcrawler over a waterfall. In both situations, they survived.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 03:54 pm    
By Enda80

"So he had Holmes have a final confrntation with Moriarty at Reichenbach Falls, where they wrestled at the edge of the cliff and both fell to their deaths." 

Fun bit of trivia; this story was also Moriarty's first and only on-"camera" appearance and first mention in the series. While many casual readers think that Moriarty was behind the scenes manipulating most of the crimes that Holmes solved, in fact the only documented case of that happening was in "The Valley of Fear". 

(This story was a retcon which took place before "Final Problem". Doyle committed a major continuity mistake, as :The Valley of Fear is also notable for the involvement of Professor Moriarty, making Arthur Conan Doyle himself the first of many writers to ignore the fact, established in "The Final Problem", that Dr. Watson first heard of Moriarty shortly before Moriarty's death, with no unrecorded adventures in between. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Valley_of_Fear 

This misconception comes about from Moriarty's appearances in non-Doyle based Sherlock Holmes adaptations such as the William Gillette play and its Rathbone adaptation with George Zucco, "Sherlock Holmes and the Secret Weapon", "The Woman in Green", "Without a Clue", "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", "Hands of a Murderer", and "Sherlock Holmes in New York", as well as in cartoon tv Sherlock Holmes homages and spoofs. In addition, some Doyle adaptations have inserted Moriarty into cases he was not involved in, such as the Arthur Wontner version of "Silver Blaze" and the Jermey Brett version of "The Red-Headed League". Ironically, while Holmes has not been seen in a threatrically released film since 1988, almost twenty years ago, Moriarty was seen in the League movie. 

Anyway, as noted, Doom 2099 encountered a vr version of Moriarty, but it was not made clear if Moriarty was real or fictional to him that I recall. 

Update: while leaving it vague as to whether or not there was a Moriarty, Doom 2099 refers to Reichenbach as well as to Holmes' survival. See Doom 2099#9.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 05:03 pm    
By wolframbane

Interesting... even a classic like Sherlock Holmes was retconned... apparently retroactive continuity is not necessarily a new trend. 

			*	*	

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 05:15 pm    
By Enda80

Update a Sherlock Holmes robot appeared in Nova, while a Moriarty robot appeared in FF I#116/2.

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 04:12 pm    Post subject: Gabrielle Haller - BTS
By wolframbane

In Uncanny X-Men 161, the early life of Gabrielle Haller at the Dachau concentration camp was depicted. Towards the end of WWII, Wolfgang von Strucker had the location of the Nazi gold in Africa placed in her mind, and she entered a coma. After Dachau was liberated, she was next taken to a hospital for Holocaust survivors in Haifa, Israel. 

In Avengers 209, the Avengers travelled back in time to recover half of the Resurrection Stonewhile Dachau was being liberated. Prisoner Sol Rosenblatt briefly used the Resurrection stone to restore his family to life, before Beast convinced him to give the Stone to the Avengers. 

Would Gabrielle Haller be considered 'Behind the Scenes' in Avengers 209? She would have been at Dachau at this time, but was comatose and was not mentioned. 

As an aside, I was curious as to how Gabrielle could have maintained her longevity in modern day if she was a child during WWII. Given the major role WWII played in her history, she cannot simply be retconned to a letr time period. I have two theories on the situation. The most likely is that the treatment given to her by Stucker which placed he in a coma also reduced her aging process while in that coma, so that she would still be a 'young woman' as Xavier descrbed her when she awoke '20 years ago' in Israel. The second thought that occurred to me is that she possibly was even exposed to the energies of the Ressurection Stone itself, which possibly extended her lifespan.

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Posted: 04 Aug 2005 04:31 pm    
By Enda80

Hmmm.....this would set a tricky precedent. After all, not only was the Maha Yogi present for the death of Julius Caesar, but so was the Deviant Gort.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 04:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Would Gabrielle Haller be considered 'Behind the Scenes' in Avengers 209? She would have been at Dachau at this time, but was comatose and was not mentioned. 
<<<

Nope. Her theoretical presence had no impact on the story. If we were to include this as a behind-the-scenes appearance, there's only a small step in reasoning from being in the same concentration camp to being in the same small town, or the same university campus. 

Is there a behind-the-scenes appearance for Flash Thompson and Liz Allan, every time we see Peter Parker in high school? Nope. Same thing here. 


watching: nypd blue

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Posted: 05 Aug 2005 04:07 pm    
By Enda80

Hey, how about this? Meltdown and Chernoybl? Remember the origin of Surge? 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/meltdown.htm 


(Havok and Wolverine: Meltdown#1 (fb), Avengers I#326 (fb, bts?), Avengers I#327 (fb, bts?)) On April 25, 1986 (or rather two years before the events set in the present in this issue) Meltdown and his accomplice Doctor Neutron engineered the explosion of a Russian nuclear power plant. They did this with the intent that Meltdown would absorb the resulting power surge, giving him the "jumpstart" needed to start generating his own radiation. 

A Lieutenant Illarion Pavlovich Ramskov was lowered into this same power plant by his aid Shoshkin just before it exploded. He sought to stop a superheated steam pipe from venting radioactive vapor into the atmosphere. While stuggling to shut down the pipe, he overheard Sasha and Yuri, two saboteurs attempting to pry out equipment in another room. They were dismantling a device attached to the reactor called a Gluon separator, tampering with the damper elements. Ramskov followed Sasha and Yuri, chasing them as they fled with the Gluon separator. 

The two saboteurs attacked Ramskov with crowbars. However, Ramskov managed to disarm one of the attackers and take his crowbar. So, Yuri threw the Gluon separator at Ramskov. Ramskov batted at it with a crowbar, smashing the neutralizer element, and causing a power surge. Ramskov somehow survived the incident, though he developed leukemia. 

In any event, the nuclear power plant exploded, resulting in a spectacular blast. However, Meltdown could not absorb it, as its radiation was dispersed too widely for direct absorption. 


So does Meltdown merit bts for those Avengers issues?

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Posted: 05 Aug 2005 05:56 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
(Havok and Wolverine: Meltdown#1 (fb), Avengers I#326 (fb, bts?), Avengers I#327 (fb, bts?)) On April 25, 1986 (or rather two years before the events set in the present in this issue) 
<<<

I must admit, sometimes I have a difficult time following what the writers of the Appendix are trying to say. Case in point: What is "this" issue? Meltdown #1, Avengers #326, Avengers #327, or some other unmentioned issue? When I run up on a sentence like that, I tend to ignore everything that comes after it. 


watching: cops

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Posted: 06 Aug 2005 02:16 am    
By Enda80

Okay, my idea is this. Havok and Wolverine: Meltdown#1 showed that Meltdown had engineered the explosion of the Chernobyl nuclear plant. However, the aforementioned Avengers issues show that two saboteurs caused the explosion of the plant. Now, unless one posits that two different parties independantly concocted a conspiracy to cause an explosion at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant, and both of them coincidentally picked the same day to do it, I would have to say that Meltdown was involved with the two saboteurs in the Avengers fbs to the Chernobyl explosion.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 08:12 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

That makes more sense. 


watching: kill bill

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Thread 11

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 03:37 am    Post subject: Sandy Herkowitz
By Jopili

**HERKOWITZ, SANDY 
**A 183 
**A 184 

A girl kidnapped by the Absorbing Man.

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Posted: 06 Aug 2005 08:26 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The MCP doesn't generally bother with minor civilian characters who only appear in one story arc and are never heard of again - there are just too many of them. Of course, if she turned up ten issues down the line, or in a cameo in another book entirely, that'd be a different matter.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 11

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 08:22 am    Post subject: Marvel Double Features
By Ant-Man

I brought this topic up previously, but I don't think that anyone responded to it. 
I got an e-mail yesterday from one of my friends. He said "I was reading Secret Defenders and then visited the Chrono Project to check on Giant-Man's next few appearances, and I saw 

A 379/2 
A 380/2 
A 381/2 

I pulled those issues from my Avengers box, and couldn't find any backup stories. What's the deal?" 

I shot him back a message explaining that Avengers #379 through 381 DON'T have backup stories. Those backup stories are in a completely different book entitled 
MARVEL DOUBLE FEATURE...THE AVENGERS/GIANT-MAN 
and the story runs through #382. 

Doesn't this need some clarification in the MCP?
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 06 Aug 2005 08:25 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

MARVEL DOUBLE FEATURE was a slightly odd book - basically, they published those versions of AVENGERS, at the same time, in two different formats, one with the back-up strip and one without. 

However, I agree with you that, strictly speaking, the variant with the back-up strip isn't actually called AVENGERS, and it's technically inaccurate to be listing these as Avengers back-up strips. They're the lead strip in a book which had an extremely recent Avengers reprint on the flipside.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 Aug 2005 08:28 am    
By Ant-Man

I know that they also did Thunderstrike/Code Blue, but I don't have those issues (and I don't think that those have been added to the MCP yet)
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 12

Posted: 20 Jul 2005 06:03 pm    Post subject: A Few Notes From Comic-Con
By stavesacre79

Hey all. I (like many of you) was at Comic-Con this past weekend and had a chance to hear from a few people at Marvel and I just wanted to make a few notes. 
1: None of "The End" books are canon AT ALL. Not even flashbacks (like those in Wolverine The End) have any bearing on the Marvel Universe. Joe Quesada himself said they are just creator's interpretations of how they would end the series if they had the chance. 
2: The panel writing Spider-Man The Other have announced that it is taking place AFTER House Of M (this will probably be apparent once we get to read it, but I thought I'd let you know anyways.) 
3: "Eisner Award Winner" Michael K. Vaughn told me that Runaways #6 will hold a suprise about Chamber that will tie in to what is happening with his character in Weapon X Days Of Future Now. 
4: J. Straczynski said that he hasn't talked with F. Nicieza or M. Millar or any other creators currently doing work with Hydra, so finding a connection between titles might be difficult (hopefully the editors are looking out for us.) 

That's about it. Also, for those who were unable to attend "Cup O' Joe" Marvel's big announcement was that Stephen King will be writing a Marvel Comic book sometime in the future (though it was slightly more ambiguous than that, I think it can be safely assumed that that was Joe's intention when he put "KING" on the board in big letters and said he got someone to create a Marvel comic that he really wanted to work with.)

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Posted: 20 Jul 2005 06:37 pm    
By Crazy Penguin

Marvel: The End, starring Thanos is canon as it was referenced in the Thanos ongoing that followed.

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Posted: 20 Jul 2005 07:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Good point, Crazy. 

Quote: 
>>>
1: None of "The End" books are canon AT ALL. Not even flashbacks 
<<<

Eh. I'm not buying it. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Jul 2005 09:51 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Of course, it's a personal decision that can be made by each of us, but the policy at the Project has always been if Marvel says it's not canon, then they don't get a listing here. 

Quote: 
>>>
A story is canon unless (a) Marvel says it isn't; or (b) it can't be. 
<<<


watching: leno

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Posted: 21 Jul 2005 03:54 pm    
By Somebody

They're canon if, like Marvel U:The End, they're referenced in an obviously canon book. Otherwise, they're not.

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Posted: 21 Jul 2005 04:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
They're canon if, like Marvel U:The End, they're referenced in an obviously canon book. 
<<<

Not for the Project, they're not. In the case of Marvel Universe: The End, I'd question whether that was included in the Editor's sweeping statement. But if Marvel editorial says a book isn't canon, then it's not, at least for our purposes, and any references in other books are simply referencing stories that we haven't seen yet. A good example of this would be Daredevil, Man Without Fear. Events therein were referenced in other books, but if Marvel says DD:MWF isn't canon, it's not. Again, you can make any personal distinctions you like. You can make all books canon, or no books canon, if that's your preference, but the statement quoted above has been MCP policy from the beginning. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 21 Jul 2005 06:29 pm    
By Jason Doty

stavesacre79 wrote 
>>>
Joe Quesada himself said they are just creator's interpretations of how they would end the series if they had the chance. 
<<<

As many times as Joe Quesada has flip-flopped on a continuity issue, I would'nt put stock into anything that is not published and just said off the cuff to a fan question.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jul 2005 06:44 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
stavesacre79 wrote 
>>>
Joe Quesada himself said they are just creator's interpretations of how they would end the series if they had the chance. 
<<<

As many times as Joe Quesada has flip-flopped on a continuity issue, I would'nt put stock into anything that is not published and just said off the cuff to a fan question. 
<<<

stavesacre79, 

Did Quesada actually reference flashbacks in his reply? In my mind, the answer to that question would be telling. If no, then it's merely an extrapolation that flashbacks (which is the only thing we're tracking here, anyway) aren't canon, not a statement by Marvel. If yes, then it's an indication, to me at least, that his comments aren't "off the cuff." 


watching: cold case files

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 10:15 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I strongly suspect that flashbacks would have been exactly what Quesada was asked about. X-MEN: THE END v2 #5 came out only a few days before that panel, and attempts to effect a massive retcon on the origin of Gambit.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 11:45 am    
By Andy Holcombe

I don't know. Every time Marvel comes out with some comic set in the "future" (2099, MC2, the various The End books) there's a part of fandom that thinks Marvel is trying to lock in the future of the Marvel Universe. My reading of the answer is that the questioner and Quesada were speaking of the main part of the books. 

Regarding the changes in Gambit's origin, Quesada had been teasing for some time that the identity of the 3rd Summers brother would be revealed in X-Men: The End: Heroes and Martyrs #5. To go from hyping the big reveal to calling everything noncanon in such a short time doesn't feel right to me.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jul 2005 10:19 am    
By jephyork
Director

Yeah -- I suspect Joe heard the question "are the 'End' books canon?" and thought it meant "is this really how the various series will end?" 

Answer: no, they're just one creator's interpretation of how the various series will end. 

If anyone wants a less off-the-cuff answer, perhaps they should e-mail the editors of the "End" books with a specific question about the flashbacks. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jul 2005 06:44 pm    
By Crazy Penguin

Has Marvel: The End been referenced in any of the new handbooks? Has Thanos had a profile in any of them?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jul 2005 06:36 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Are you suggesting that Thanos #1-12, which reference Marvel: the End, are also non-canon? 

I really think that Joe Quesada was only referring to the End series which take place *in the future*. He said that they're writer's interpretations of how the various series would *end* -- and that's not what Marvel: the End was. 

Be great if stavesacre79 could drop back in and give us some more insight here... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jul 2005 07:40 pm    
By Crazy Penguin

I'm certain that the Marvel: The End and Thanos stuff is in continuity, it's just nice to have an OHOTMU reference to point to.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jul 2005 05:36 pm    
By stavesacre79

Sorry I haven't responded in so long. My internet's been on the fritz. 

Okay - I'm going to try to say pretty close to word for word what I asked him and what he said, but it won't be exact as this conversation was 2 weeks ago now. 

I asked "Are any of the various "The End" serious canon?" 
He said without hesitation "No, they're just what one creator would do if they were given the opportunity to write the end of the story." He went on about how Chris Claremont might want to end the X-Men one way but someone else might have a different idea in mind. 

Then I specifically followed up with "So can we divine any information about the Marvel Universe from the flashbacks in the books such as those in Wolverine: The End." 

And he said quite simply, "No." 

It seemed quite straightforward to me that nothing in the books can be used as clues about the canon universe. HOWEVER, just because it's in "The End" books doesn't mean it WON'T turn out to be true. Chris Claremont could be basing his ideas for "The End" upon what he plans to write in upcoming issues of X-Men. 

Finally, when I asked the question, I had Wolverine, X-Men, and the upcoming Fantastic Four: The End series in mind, not Marvel: The End. Whether Quesada had Marvel: The End in mind when he responsed I can't even speculate on.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jul 2005 10:30 am    
By PaxHouse

Brace yourselves for this one for.....The "Chamber" that's been appearing within RUNAWAYS #1-#6 has now been revealed to be..... A Member {and possibly a familiar one} of a New Pride, who has been using one of the Pride's device to "disguised" himself as the former Gen Xer/X-Man/and "currently" WEAPON Xer... 
_________________
PaxHouse.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Aug 2005 06:11 am 
By jannepie

Here's what Tom B himself said about Marvel: The End at Comixfan. 

"As i said at the time, all that really means is that he may have had an adventure in the regular Marvel U with similarities to certain elements of MARVEL: THE END. 

But MARVEL : THE END was a THE END project--says so right in the title--and so is not part of the mainstream Marvel U. 

Tom B"

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 09:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Ugh. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 08:37 pm    
By Col_Fury

Here's an update from Chicago-Con, or Wizard World Chicago, or whatever they're calling it these days... 

The panel was "House of M: Before & After." Joe Quesada, Brian Bendis, Ed Brubaker, Mike Marts & others were there answering questions after the presentation. The presentation itself was basically an advertisement for upcoming books, but the answers to some questions were fairly revealing. Beware! I don't want to shabazz anyone, so read no further if you wish to avoid mental anguish. 

W 

A 

T 

C 

H 



O 

U 

T 

! 

For the most part, it doesn't look like Marvel post-HoM will be much different than Marvel pre-HoM. 'Reality' will revert to how we know it at the end of the story, & most characters won't remember the HoM events. A few will, of course. Who? "Wait & see" was the catch phrase of the day. There may be a change or two here & there, but nothing retroactive. Basically, because HoM takes place in an altered reality, it will have 'happened,' but it will only affect the characters that remember it having happened. This may be why the Spider-Man crossover "the Other" happens post-HoM, because Spider-Man will probably remember HoM. That's a guess, of course. They could just be touting it as post-HoM for an advertising gimmick. Hopefully this all makes sense, I've re-read it a few times, but if it doesn't feel free to ask me to clarify. 

Also, because Nick Fury is my favorite,(it's not obvious, is it?) I had to ask the same question I ask every year, rephrased to fit each years panel. "How will HoM & the end of Secret War affect Nick Fury, & will we see a new ongoing for him & SHIELD?" Joe Q handed the question to Bendis, mentioning that he's the guy in charge of Nick Fury. His answer was that Fury is 'stuck' in Secret War currently, but he & SHIELD will be a regular cast members of the upcoming Spider Woman book. Brubaker also mentioned that he'll continue to use him in Captain America. However, there's no new Nick Fury book planned. Surprisingly, no one mentioned the upcoming 'Howling Commandoes' book, & I forgot to ask myself. I'm assuming that this means Secret War will set up Nick's status for New Avengers, but will soon be fixed so that he can appear in Spider Woman. Again, that's a guess.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 08:33 pm    Post subject: Sgt Fury
By cnowlin

I was wondering why only a few issues of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandoes seem to be included. Are the rest non-canon? And if so, why? 

Thanks for your time

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 10:06 pm    
By John Simons

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1491
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 09:54 pm    Post subject: Uncanny X-Men Annual #4 question about Nightcrawler's life
By wolframbane

I am currently working on a timeline of Nightcrawler's life and I needed some background info on his origin. In Uncanny X-Men Annual #4, he became the blood brother to Stefan Szardos and promised to kill him if Stefan ever took an innocent life. Was there any reference to when in Nightcrawler's life this occured? Were they depicted as teens or children? What was the specific reference (if any) to the oath being made 'years ago' or anything?

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 11:57 pm    
By Jason Doty

I believe the Uncanny Origins issue featuring Nightcrawler, places that event right before his first appearance in Giant-Size X-Men no.1. The crowd is chasing him in GSX 1 for the murders his step-brother did.

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 07:56 am    Post subject: Iron Man #201-#250
By Arthur
Director

continuing the audit... 

[edited Feb 25, 2006 to correct page numbering] 


Iron Man #201 - #250 

* adjustment required (deletion, split entry, change of some nature) 
** new entries 


ARBOGAST, BAMBI 
(BAMBI BLISS ARBOGAST IM 248) 

IM 227 
*IM 228 should be IM 228-FB (voice is heard from off-panel 2:5 in FB 2:4-3:6/1) 
IM 231 
IM 235 
**IM 236-BTS inclusion dependant on definition (Present but off-panel) 14:5; Tony calls her on intercom. 
*IM 237 should be IM 237-FB. (flashback 2:4-5:5) 
IM 238 


ATLANTA, DR. THERON 

IM 204 
**IM 205-BTS (2:6) inclusion dependant on definition. Iron Man tells his friends that Dr. Atlanta is in protective custody. 


*BUTTONS 

This should be listed as MARSTON, BUTTONS (or COWAN, BUTTONS if Buck and Elaine have indeed been marriedsee note under COWEN, ELAINE immediately below) 
WBN 31 
WBN 42 
S-W 19-FB 
*IM 209-BTS Suggested to Delete. see note under COWEN, ELAINE immediately below. 


COWEN, ELAINE 

S-W 19-FB 
*IM 209-BTS Suggested to Delete. I track a lot of stuff, but under the current main MCP definition, (while not actually appearing in the story, the character's actions still have an impact on the story.), this hardly warrants inclusion: Jack Russell meets his friend Buck Cowan and asks him So how are Elaine and Buttons? To which Buck replies, Older, Jack. Not much else to say. (8:2). Thats it. 

By the way  When did Elaine MARSTON (WBN 31 3:1) get married? I know she and Buck were engaged in WBN 42, but I never saw them hitched. And speaking of BUCK COWEN, his last name was COWAN with an A throughout the WBN series (e.g. WBN 1 3:5, WBN 42 12:4) as well as in his first appearance (M/SPT 4 2:5) and his last (IM 209 7:4). 


DARE, KATHLEEN 

IM 242 
**IM 243-FB (3:4)  TV news footage showing Kathy Dares arrest 
IM 243 


FIREPOWER/JACK TAGGERT 

IM 230 
**IM 231 
IM 288 


FONG, LI 

**IM 242-FB (6:4 - 8:5) Li Fong serves the Mandarin and looks after him when Mandy loses his memory. 
IM 242 


FORCE/CLAYTON WILSON "TAYLOR"/"CARL WALKER" 

IM 225 
**IM 244 
DHAWK@ 1-BTS 


HOGAN, HAROLD J. "HAPPY" 

IM 112 
**IM 210-FB-FB (4:1-7:5) how Spymaster wormed his way into Happy's friendship 
IM 199 
IM 200 
IM 201 
**IM 210-FB (1-7:7) Happy turns to Tony for a loan 
IM 210 


HOGAN, VIRGINIA "PEPPER" POTTS 

IM 201 
**IM 210-FB (1-7:7) Pepper tries to convince Happy not to ask Tony for help 
IM 210 


*IRON MAN/ TONY STARK 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD TONY STARK (IM 243 pg 1) 

*IM 205 (1-6) 
**IM 210-FB (3:5-3:9) 6 weeks prior to IM 210. Tony is pretty casual about writing a blank check so I figure its after he saves his fortune in IM 203. There is the insinuation that Happy chatted a while before bringing up the loan, so I placed it after IM 204 when the Bethany Cabe/Madame Masque problem was resolved and Tony would feel relaxed enough to have a casual conversation. IM 205 has a span of weeks while Tony fund raises. I place this at the beginning of that weeks span. 
*IM 205 (7 - 22) 

 

IM 217 
**IM 218-FB (6:2-7:3) 3 days prior to IM 218. Explains why Iron Man was in England in IM 218. (Could be before the epilogue to IM 217 (i.e pg 22), but why complicate things?) 
IM 218 

 

*IM 227 1-21 Armor Wars vs Mandroids 
WCA2 30 hanging at WCA compound when Aliens attack. I placed the following IM 228-FB-FB after this entry because I figure that once Tony got the new project (the shield) hed be in the lab not hanging at Avengers HQ 
**IM 228-FB-FB (3:2) Tony gets note that Captain America needs a new shield 
*IM 227 (22:1) ..days later 
**IM 228-FB (2:4-2:5) Tonys thoughts prior to Caps visit 
*IM 227 (22:2) Cap arrives and is announced by Mrs. Arbogast. 
*IM 227 (22:3-22:5) ~ CA 339 (21:2-21:3) Cap and Tony chat 
*IM 227 (22:6/1-22:6/2) Tonys inner thoughts on using his friend 
*IM 227 (22:6/3(~ CA 339 (21:4/1) Tony suggests looking at the new shield 

(note: in the IM 228-FB, panels 3:1 and 3:3-3:5/1 are virtually identical scenes to the above (missing 1 speech balloon, else word for word), and therefore not cited) 

**IM 228-FB (3:5/2  3:6/1) Tonys guilty thoughts 
*CA 339 (21:4/2  22:7) Cap asks about the firing of Iron Man; question deflected and they go to test the shield. 
IM 228 ~ CA 340 
WCA2 31 

 

IM 230 
**IM 231-FB (3:2) Tony and Rhodey prepping the armor to deceive Firepower and the army 
IM 231 

 

DAMCON 3 
**IM 237-FB (2:4-5:5) what precipated the events in IM 237 
IM 237 

 

IM 242 
**IM 243-FB (3:2)  TV news footage showing Tony Stark being moved by stretcher to ambulance 
IM 243 

... 

HELP NEEDED #1 

Much of IM 244 is a FB (18:4-37:4). 
It opens with a shot of Iron man in what appears to be the armour that was first used in IM 231 (21:4-22:1), but in reminiscing, Tony says it was years ago (18:3). 
Tony attends an art auction and bids $4.5 million for a Monet (obviously during good times financially). 
He meets Joanna, who was his fiance at the time he became Iron Man. 
They chat. She in now married with two children who appear to be between 8 and 12 yrs old. As she departs Tony gives her the Monet. 

Need help with placement. 


IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 

M/SH3 12/3 
*IM 214 I do not see Rhodey in IM 214. 
IM 215 

 

IM 230 
**IM 231-FB (3:2) Tony and Rhodey prepping the armor to deceive Firepower and the army 
IM 231 

 

DAMCON 3 
*IM 237 should be IM 237-FB. Rhodey does not appear in IM 237 (other than in 3:2-4:5, part of the flashback 2:4-5:5) 
IM 238 

 

IM 242 
**IM 243-FB (3:2)  TV news footage showing Tony Stark being moved by stretcher to ambulance with Rhodey running alongside 
IM 243 


JARVIS, EDWIN 

A 258 
**IM 202-FB (7:5) You cant see his face due to narrative boxes, but who else serves honored guests at Avengers Mansion? 
CA 310 


KA-ZAR/KEVIN PLUNDER 

A 258 
**IM 202-FB (7:5-9:1) Ka-zar and Shannas life at Avengers Mansion and how Ka-Zar came to be in California 
IM 202 


LACOSTE, RAE 

IM 226 
*IM 231-BTS Strongly suggested to Delete. Even under expanded definitions Id have trouble accepting this one (unless we have flag for just name-dropping and casual references). After working incommunicado for weeks, Tony thinks I know theyre worried about me  Rhodey, Rae, Mrs. Arbogast and the rest. (18:1). It is clearly specified that he has answered neither telephone nor doorbell for those weeks. Heck, she could be dead for all Tony knows! 
IM 233 


LADY OF THE LAKE 


HFH 2 
HFH 8 
**IM 250 (27:5) IM 250 takes place in the future, 2093, but Merlins appearance in the same issue is listed, so why not the Ladys? (Im not sure WHY Merlins appearance in chronologically BEFORE EX 47-50, but then again Im not sure I understand Merlin/Merlyn/Myrd) 



MADAME MASQUE/GIULIETTA KRISTINA NEFARIA/"WHITNEY FROST"/BIG M/"KRISSY LONGFELLOW" 

HELP NEEDED #2 

I need some help deciphering Madame Masque. In A3 32, it says that ever since Iron man murdered her father (IM 116) and she built her refuge, that she protected herself from her enemies  sending out only (my bold) bio-duplicates to deal with the outside world . 
Does that mean that all the entries in her listing AFTER IM 116 are not really her, but her bio-dupes? Are they essentially part of Madame Masque, and therefore belong to her listing? If so why the Madame Masque II through IV? 
IM 245 only has one Madame Masque (pg 13), yet there are entries under the original AND under MADAME MASQUE II. (There is an allusion to a photograph of a corpse found in the East River that was shown to Tony to identify, but at best this would be a BTS.) 
And would that mean that in IM 238 it was really a bio-dupe killing a prior bio-dupe (which is the photo Tony was shown)? 
!! Need help with confusion. 


MANDARIN 

IM 181 
**IM 242-FB (6:4-8:5) how Mandarin lost his memory; cared for by Li Fong 
IM 241 


NEWELL, DIANE ARLISS 

A 262 
*IM 226-BTS Suggested to Delete. Until we have a category of non-impact; statement of where character is/what they are doing. Stingray says Good thing my wife, Diane, is off shopping on the mainland. (19:2) . 
M/CP 53/3 


*NIVENA, JOANNA 
FINCH, JOANNA (NEE NIVENA) ( IM 244 36:4) 

HELP NEEDED #3 
Need some help here as I do not have IM:IA 1 
[IM:IA 1-FB] ?? 
**IM 244-FB-FB (23:1-35:7) -- Tony Stark returns to America from southeast Asia. First appearance of Iron Man on US soil. Joanna Nivena was his fianc. They break up. 
**IM 244-FB (18:4-37:4) years later Tony bumps into Joanna (who is already married to Howard Finch and has 2 kids at least 8 yrs old) 
Placement help need in relation to IM:IA 1-FB 


PENDRAGON, ARTHUR 

CB 35-FB 
XCAL:XX CROSSING 
**IM 250 - IM 250 takes place in the future, 2093, but Merlins appearance in the same issue is listed, so why not the King Arthurs? 


RADIOACTIVE MAN/DR. CHEN LU 

IM 181 
*IM 233-BTS I have no idea why this is listed, so I cannot refute it. But I failed to find any connection with the RADIOACTIVE MAN 
IM 234 


SHANNA/SHANNA O'HARA PLUNDER 

A 258-BTS 
**IM 202-FB (7:5-9:1) Ka-zar and Shannas life at Avengers Mansion 
IM 202 


SPYMASTER/"JAKE JORDAN" 

IM 139 
**IM 210-FB-FB (4:1-7:5) how Spymaster wormed his way into Happy's friendship 
IM 210 


*STEELE, SIMON/WOLFGANG HEINRICH VON LUNDT 
STEELE, SIMON/WOLFGANG VON LUNDT 
(Heinrich Von Lundt was Wolfgangs Brother. WOSM 72 13:6) 

**WOSM 10-FB (3:4-3:6) Steele vs Dominic Fortune and Sabbath Raven 1940; France pre-invasion 
WOSM 72-FB (post war; marries Sabbath Raven) 
**{WOSM 10} 
*IM 212 (remove brackets for first published appearance) 
IM 213 
WOSM 71 
WOSM 72 


STILT-MAN/WILBUR DAY 

IM 225 
IM 226-BTS 
*IM 228-BTS Suggested to Delete. The IM 226-BTS for Stilt-Man was because he was suing Stark Enterprises for excessive force (IM 226 11:6). Arguably his actions impacted the story. But the BTS in IM 228 is because the case was settled out of court (4:2). We are given no indication Stilt-Man was even involved. Maybe he had left instructions with his lawyer to settle if they got the number they were after. Seems a bit weak for our definition. Even if Stiltman was involved the impact on the story is negligble. 


WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 

H2 346 
*IM 234-BTS suggested to delete. Another non-impact; statement of where character is/what they are doing BTS. Spidey states Since my blushing bride is off posingin San Juan. (13:4) 
ASM@ 22 


ZABU 

A 258-BTS 
**IM 202-FB (7:5-9:1) Ka-zar and Shannas life (and Zabu) at Avengers mansion following the Terminus affair 
*IM 202 This should read IM 202-BTS. Zabu is only seen in the flashback, but when Ka-Zar is on the phone to Shanna he ends with I love you too, then tacks on and you too Zabu (23:4); presumably Zabu was within earshot of the other end. (ie Present but off-panel) 


ZIMMER, ABE 

IM 226 
*IM 229 Suggested to Delete. Abe is only mentioned in the story when Tony tells Rhodey Ive got Abe Zimmer working on it. (9:4). Under expanded definition it could conceivably be called a BTS, but not now. 
IM 230

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 08:25 am    Post subject: Thinker FF 15-FB-BTS
By Jopili

THINKER 
** FF 15-FB-BTS 
FF 15 
FF 28 
ST 126 
... 

pg.6 pn.3-5

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 06:18 am    Post subject: Death in Kull Vale of the Shadow GN
By Enda80

Published in 1989, this gn features an appearance by Death. It has four fbs, three of which are new. 

Kull, injured during a battle with Commorian soldiers, faces the embodiment of Death, who tries to seduce him. People looking on relate tales of Kull. 

Conan Saga#97 has an article placing this story in Kull's chronology. 

Appearances: current portion 

Kull (between Savage Sword of Conan#127/2 and Savage Sword of Conan#129/2) 

Brule (between Savage Sword of Conan#127/2 and Savage Sword of Conan#129/2) 

Count Bora Ballin (last in Kull III#10) 

Ridondo (last in Kull III#10) 

Tu (last in Kull III#10) 

No further appearances to date for those three. 

Death (last in Kull III#2; next in either A:CQ 5-FB or Dracula Lives#9/5) 

fb 1: Kull faces a group of unnamed Picts. 
Conan Saga#97 places this between Savage Sword#193/2 and Savage Sword#196/2. 

fb 2: A tricky fb. It relates how Kull gained his freedom from his time as a gladiator. It conflicts with Savage Sword of Conan#122. That story showed that Kull ran afoul of a corrupt governor. The governor orders archers to arrow Kull, but Borna stops them. 

In this version, Kull is freed from his status as gladiator when, after refusing to slay Andreus (who has a lover named Sarella), Count Bora Ballin buys Kull's freedom when Borna orders archers to attack Kull. 

Conan Saga#97 leaves it an open question, but the latter story gests more credence. 

fb takes place between Savage Sword of Conan#215/2 and Savage Sword of Conan#138/2. 

Borna appeared in a fb in Kull III#4 preceding this fb story chronologically, and next appears in his death in Kull the Conqueror#1 (see below) 

fb3: Prodded on by Kanuub and Ridondo, Kull slays Borna. 

Retelling of Kull the Conqueror#1. 

fb4: Kull, on a winter retreat, finds a magic painting. Tu and Ridondo are with him. 

fb takes place between SSOC#161/2 and #165/2. 


DEATH 
A:CQ 5-FB 
*KULL III 2/2 
*KULL: VALE OF THE SHADOW 
*DL 9/5 
*AF 8-FB 
WIH 13 
WIH 14 
WIH 15 
{CM 27} 
KS 
CX 43/2 
DPOOL '98-FB

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 11:46 pm    
By John Simons

Hey John- 

I notice that one of your areas of interest is obviously the Marvel version of the Robert E. Howard universe, and how it ties in with the prehistorical period of the MU. This being the case, and since there are not as yet many Howard characters in the MCP, why not do some full issue analyses of whatever Conan/Kull/Red Sonja/SolomonKane books you have? That would seem to be a more thorough way of discussing this material rather than a sporadic post about one character here and one there. 

Just my 2 cents...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 01:12 pm   
By Enda80

I am just covering the issues that have characters that have appeared in other series, and already have chronology project listings. There are not too many, and in fact a list would not go much more beyond the following. 
It is not safe for me to do anything more. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hyborian.htm 


Death 

Damballah 

Ishtar: Appeared in Hellstorm; presence in Hyborian era confirmed in various places. 

Omm: (indirectly) in Marvel-Team-Up I #111 (the statue does move, after all) 

Set: Prominent appearances in the modern era include Marvel Two-In-One#66, Marvel Team-Up Annual I#5, and Thor Annual I#14; interaction with humans during Hyborian era confirmed by Conan the Barbarian I#7 and Savage Sword of Conan#192, et al. 


Shuma-Gorath: Too many appearances to list; its first appearance occurred in Marvel Premiere#9, while its presence in the Hyborian era got confirmed in Conan the Barbarian I#259 

Varnae: Appeared in Doctor Strange III#18, Nightstalkers#17, and Blade I#5; presence in Hyborian era confirmed by Conan the Barbarian I#244-245 

Ymir: Prominent appearances in Doctor Strange I#177-178, Avengers#61, Marvel Super-Heroes II#5, Thor I#294, 417-425; presence in Hyborian era confirmed by Savage Tales#1 (appearance of his daughter Atali).

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 03:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Shuma-Gorath: Too many appearances to list 
<<<

That doesn't sound too accurate. I doubt he's has more appearances than Spider-Man. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 27 Jul 2005 05:14 pm    Post subject: Avengers Handbook 2005 notes
By Enda80

Key points 

Black Knight's entry establishes the Merlin story in Strange Tales#108 as Earth-616 canon. 

It also establishes that Ultron animated the Black Knight statue. 

Morgan Le Fay's entry establishes that she recovered Gregor Russof's diary/Darkhold copy in Doc III#9 

Black Knight's entry seems to indicate that Merlyn is Merlin 

Was there a tie-in comic to the early 1990's Avengers video-game? It seems to be referenced...... 

Kang's entry references Star Trek/X-Men. So all those metafictional references to Star Trek can be replaced by Star Lords (seen in Marvel Comics: Fantastic Four#1, an obvious analog to Star Trek down to a successor series pace Next Generation). 

Mantis' entry confirms that she appeared in JLA#142 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/kentclrk.htm 

in JLA #142, written by Steve Engleheart, the JLA met a woman named Willow, who was implied to be Mantis from Avengers. Well, the ICG Official Index to the Justice League #5 admitted that she was Mantis! So Mantis skipped around the multiverse. 

Sadly, her Scorpio Rose#2 appearance could not get shoe-horned in.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jul 2005 09:16 pm    
By Jason Doty

Enda80 wrote 
>>>
Kang's entry references Star Trek/X-Men.  
<<<

And sure enough, it is there. 

Yah!!!!!!!!  

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jul 2005 10:33 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Wow...and is specifically says, "Star Trek" in there? I figured that would be a word you can't even say, without paying fees...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jul 2005 09:20 am    
By Jason Doty

Know they don't say it and I know what your getting at. 

The OHOTMU: Avengers 2005 under the Kang entry reads: 

Quote: 
>>>
"After a brief battle with the X-Men and an enterprising starship crew, Kang..." 
<<<

Even if they cannot mention the adventure by name due to copyright laws and such, they elude to the adventure as having occured and this evidence definatly supports intent.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jul 2005 12:33 pm   
By Selaboc

I don't know that copyright laws prevent you from mentioning it in an article (particularily when the article is refering to an existing product - fair use and all that). What it would prevent is mentioning it on the cover.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jul 2005 11:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

One other point worth noting is that the typically detailed entry for the Avengers mentions their encounter with Jessica Jones from the flashbacks in ALIAS #25-26, and places it shortly before AVENGERS #200.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 08:48 pm    
By U-Man

Selaboc wrote: 
>>>
I don't know that copyright laws prevent you from mentioning it in an article (particularily when the article is refering to an existing product - fair use and all that). What it would prevent is mentioning it on the cover. 
<<<

Like how DC and Marvel both have Captain Marvels but only Marvel can have a comic book by that title, and DC has to always call it "SHAZAM"?

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 08:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Hunh? No. Not at all like that... 


watching: first 48

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 07:19 am    
By Enda80

It appears that we can search and replace "Star Trek" with "Star Kings". In Marvel Comics:Fantastic Four#1, we see a video tape cover for a show called Star-Kings. It features a Skrull and seems to take place in the future. 

"Not the lame spin-offs, the original series! Scintillating, Captain" someone says about it. 

Note that Spock says "Fascinating".

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 08:23 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

That doesn't tell you anything, Enda. A Marvel Universe comic would use a stand-in name for STAR TREK for exactly the same reason a real world Marvel comic does: the rights belong to Paramount. Virtually every brand name in the Marvel Universe is replaced with a supposedly-amusing near equivalent. (Burger Clown, for example.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 11:38 am    
By Enda80

One of the X-Men/Star Trek complaints was that characters in previous stories had mentioned Star Trek, yet when they actually meet the crew of the Enterprise, nobody says "Wasn't that on a tv show?". 

Marvel Comics:Fantastic Four#1 was actually presented as a sort of celebrity magazine published in the Marvel Universe, since the true identities of the FF are known and they authorize such publications. Johnny Storm was giving a list of his favorite tv shows.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 11:19 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
One of the X-Men/Star Trek complaints was that characters in previous stories had mentioned Star Trek, yet when they actually meet the crew of the Enterprise, nobody says "Wasn't that on a tv show?".  
<<<

You're forgetting one of the tenets of the MCP (as well as scientific research in general): lack of evidence is not in and of itself evidence. 
Enda80 wrote: 

Marvel Comics:Fantastic Four#1 was actually presented as a sort of celebrity magazine published in the Marvel Universe, since the true identities of the FF are known and they authorize such publications. Johnny Storm was giving a list of his favorite tv shows. 

And for all we know, the <I>Star Kings</I> series there is an in-Marvel-continuity rip-off of <I>Star Trek.</I> The fact that <I>Star Kings</I> exists doesn't mean <I>Star Trek</I> can't. 

Just like <I>Galaxy Quest</I> here in the real world is a thinly-veiled version of <I>Star Trek.</I>

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 10:42 am    
By Mark O'English

[quote="Enda80"]Sadly, her Scorpio Rose#2 appearance could not get shoe-horned in.[/quote] 

I just have to note in reply: 

"Known Aliases: ... Lorelei..." 
"History: ...Eventually her son, Sequoia, was born, and Mantis attempted to raise him in normalcy in the town of Willimantic, Connecticut. Dark forces rose against her, attempting to create an evil counterpart to her child, but she aided those who fought them, and nothing eclipsed her attempts to raise the boy peacefully..." 

Like many extra-company things, not mentioned specifically, but it is there, somewhat vagued up. The Scorpio Rose appearance really is just a two-page appearance (under the name Lorelei) where she discusses the above with Igor Gravesend over a cup of coffee at her apartment in Willimantic, Connecticut. Its also technically the first appearance of Sequoia/Quoi, albeit very darkly, in shadow.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 11:29 am    
By Somebody

It should be pointed out that her raising Quoi for the first year of his life in Willimantic, Connecticut is specifically referenced in Avengers: Celestial Quest.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 12:46 pm    
By Mark O'English

[quote="Somebody"]It should be pointed out that her raising Quoi for the first year of his life in Willimantic, Connecticut is specifically referenced in [i]Avengers: Celestial Quest[/i].[/quote] 

Or close to it. Engelhart misremembered it (or so I assume), and it got referenced as Willimantic, New Jersey, instead. Or perhaps she was in Willimantic, CT on whatever Earth Scorpio Rose took place in, and Willimantic, NJ when she came back to Earth 616. 

Willimantic, CT, is a real town, by the way, a little town of about 16,000 people. I'd always assumed it was a made up name to quietly reference her other identites- WillowMantis (her DC and Marvel names).

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 04:18 pm    
By Sean McQuaid

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Black Knight's entry establishes the Merlin story in Strange Tales#108 as Earth-616 canon. 
<<<

Yup--we wanted to include as much of Marvel's BK legacy as possible, and there was nothing to rule out the story as part of 616 continuity. That being said, it seemed unlikely that Merlin would have created a "black knight" like this after he'd already established Percy, so we placed this random Camelot short story sometime before Percy's exploits in the 616 chronology, making this "hollow knight" a test run of sorts, like Druid being a test run for Doctor Strange. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
It also establishes that Ultron animated the Black Knight statue. 
<<<

Seemed high time to make it official. Back when he was AVENGERS writer, Kurt Busiek cited a lot of convincing evidence to the effect that Ultron was the only culprit who made sense, and that it was Ultron who did it, but it's a sufficiently old and obscure point that there might never be an opportunity to confirm it in a conventional story, so we confirmed it here. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Black Knight's entry seems to indicate that Merlyn is Merlin 
<<<

Sort of, though there wasn't really room to explore this side issue properly in the BK profile. For much, much more on this topic, go to... 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinyn.htm 

...for all the Merlin info any sane person could want, and then some. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Was there a tie-in comic to the early 1990's Avengers video-game? It seems to be referenced...... 
<<<

I'm not sure if a companion tie-in comic was ever produced, but the game was one of the most successful and memorable multimedia translations the Avengers ever had, and lifted a surprising amount of stuff from the comics in a mostly-faithful fashion, so we gave it a subtle nod as an otherwise-untold adventure (kind of like the previously untold WCA-Ultron battle that BKV revealed recently in his excellent RUNAWAYS). 

It's a throwaway nugget, nothing that impacts the larger history nor anything casual readers urgently need to know about, but it's a little something extra and a knowing wink to those who recall the source material. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Kang's entry references Star Trek/X-Men. So all those metafictional references to Star Trek can be replaced by Star Lords (seen in Marvel Comics: Fantastic Four#1, an obvious analog to Star Trek down to a successor series pace Next Generation). 
<<<

Kang's entry does indeed reference Trek, but I don't think it automatically follows that all Trek-as-fiction is wiped from the 616 universe. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Mantis' entry confirms that she appeared in JLA#142 
in JLA #142, written by Steve Engleheart, the JLA met a woman named Willow, who was implied to be Mantis from Avengers. Well, the ICG Official Index to the Justice League #5 admitted that she was Mantis! So Mantis skipped around the multiverse. 
Sadly, her Scorpio Rose#2 appearance could not get shoe-horned in. 
<<<

Yup, Mantis's DC adventures are referenced; and as Mark's comments elsewhere in this thread indicate, the Eclipse material got a subtle nod, too. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 05:03 pm    
By Enda80

I have got the JLA Index if we want to add that issue to Mantis' listing.

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 09 Aug 2005 06:45 pm    Post subject: Prose novels cited in Handbooks and Encyclopedias
By Enda80

What do we do about those prose novels that have been cited in Handbooks and Encyclopedias? That might include, among others 

Time's Arrow 
Chaos Engine 
Sinister Six 

Anyone think of any others? I woud say that Mr. DeCandido's off the record comments about them being non-canon should be overruled for those cited in officially publishes sources.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Aug 2005 08:10 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

What do you mean? His comment wasn't off the record. 


watching: stargate

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2005 03:23 am    
By Enda80

Did he state it in an e-mail? If he had made that statement in one of the novels themselves, then it would have been "on the record".

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2005 07:34 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

That's wrong. That's just wrong. That has nothing to do with on or off the record. 

"Off the record" means you don't have authority to cite your source. If someone says to you, "I didn't tell you this, but...", that's off the record. Whether the information was imparted to me in a public forum or a private forum is irrelevant. Saying that a comment is "off the record" casts doubt on its worthiness, by claiming that the source isn't willing to stand behind their words. 

Keith's comments were not off the record. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2005 01:28 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

And the answer to Enda's question is, bluntly, we ignore them, because the HANDBOOK is only accurate to the extent that it isn't obviously wrong. The intentions of the people who produced the novels vastly outweigh the opinions of the HANDBOOK.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 01:47 am    
By loki

And I have to say I take the opposite pov. Someone's intent is overruled by a statement in an actual Marvel title. Chris Claremont's intent was to have Nightcrawler be the child of Mystique (father) and Destiny (mother); the actual comics stated otherwise, overruling this. This isn't any different.

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 06:27 am    
By StAkAr Karnak

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
I woud say that Mr. DeCandido's [...] comments about them being non-canon should be overruled for those cited in officially publishes sources. 
<<<


Then loki wrote: 
>>>
Someone's intent is overruled by a statement in an actual Marvel title. 
<<<

The way I understand policy, anything published by Marvel is considered Official unless there is overwelming published evidence by Marvel to the contrary. If Powers That Be can chalk up issues like this one to a publishing error, then said published source is no longer canon. 

Creator intentions are not necessarily canon; their value is relative.
_________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:StAkAr_Karnak

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 07:54 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

StAkAr Karnak wrote: 
The way I understand policy, anything published by Marvel is considered Official unless there is overwelming published evidence by Marvel to the contrary. 


This test fails on the face of it. Anything published by Marvel (say Book A) is official unless *overwhelmingly* contradicted by something else published by Marvel (Book B). 

Why "overwhelmingly" contradicted? The reason the test fails is that, logically, one can reverse the tenet. If neither Book A nor Book B *overwhelmingly* contradicts the other, are they both canon? 

The Handbooks are a secondary source. If they're contradicted, without explanation, the Handbooks are mistaken. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 08:01 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

loki wrote: 
>>>
Chris Claremont's intent was to have Nightcrawler be the child of Mystique (father) and Destiny (mother); the actual comics stated otherwise, overruling this. This isn't any different. 
<<<

I'm surprised you wouldn't see the difference. One is a question of plot elements, answered by the writer. The other is a question of canon, answered by the editor. We have a determination from the editor that the stories were not canon. That's all we need. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 08:03 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
The Handbooks are a secondary source. If they're contradicted, without explanation, the Handbooks are mistaken. 
<<<

Not to mention that the Handbooks only cite that an event took place, whereas the novels relay the specifics of the event. We've encountered this plenty of times before where a Marvel-published source references a non-Marvel-published source, and the result generally ends up being that, while an event(s) similar to those shown in the non-Marvel source may have taken place, the specifics may well be different. 

Which basically means that the novels are non-canon, even if the Handbooks cite (thereby making canon) certain events mentioned in the novels. We can't use the novels as sources, and we have to therefore distinguish between what the Handbooks ACTUALLY SAY versus what we INTERPRET them to mean based on the novels.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 02:34 am    Post subject: Lucifer, Belaso, and Nightmare notes, as well as Ludi and
By Enda80

Lucifer in those Punisher issues was in fact Belasco. 



BELASCO/LUCIFER II 
XCAL -1 
KZ3 11 
KZ3 12 
UX 160 
MGK 1 
MGK 2 
MGK 3 
MGK 4 
KZ3 28 
KZ3 29 
FF 314 
*PUN2 39 
*PUN2 40 
AF 123-BTS 
AF 124 
C2 13 
C2 14 
XCAL 102-BTS 
XCAL 103 
XU 9 
XU 19 
BS:X 1 
BS:X 2 
BS:X 5 



LUDI 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 4 
DRSTR2 35 


Ludi appeared in Chamber of Chills#4, while Ningal appeared in Chamber of Chills#3. 

NINGAL 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 3 
DRSTR2 35 
DRSTR2 36 
DRSTR2 37 


Since the Dreamqueen is 800 years old, Nightmare's rape of her mother Zhilla Char which produced her must accordingly fall early in his chronology. Also, Doctor Strange II#65 featured a fb to Nightmare that took place "ten years ago" or so. I have placed it as ten years absolutely, since it invovled a little seen character. 

NIGHTMARE/"EDVARD HABERDASH" 
**AF 67-FB 
SENSM -1 
**DRSTR2 65-FB 
{ST 110/2} 
ST 116/2 
ST 122/2 
.........

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 07:44 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Lucifer in those Punisher issues was in fact Belasco. 
<<<

Source, please? 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Ludi appeared in Chamber of Chills#4, while Ningal appeared in Chamber of Chills#3. 
<<<

Chamber of Chills 3 and 4 haven't been analyzed yet. We would welcome an analysis. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 09:33 am    
By Enda80

Ningal 

Journalist Reginald Atkins notices Marcia Trent, a girl without a shadow. She is the daughter of archaeologist Edward Trent, who found a statue of Ningal. The statue was placed in the British Museum. However, Edward disappeared....and Marcia lost her shadow. The authorities had the statue walled up. 

Marcia convinces Atkins to help break in and see if her father's body is walled up with the statue. They do so....and the statue comes to life and kills Atkins. Marcia reveals that she serves Ningal. 

ATKINS, REGINALD 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 3 


NINGAL 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 3-FB 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 3 
DRSTR2 35 
DRSTR2 36 
DRSTR2 37 

TRENT, EDWARD 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 3-FB 


TRENT, MARCIA 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 3 
DRSTR2 36 
DRSTR2 37 


This issue also features an adaptation of the Howard story "The Thing on the Roof". The only claim to Earth-616 canonicity is that it references Von Junzt's Book Nameless Cults, which has also been name checked in Doctor Strange. No character gets his full name given. Do you want a summary of this story? 


Chamber of Chills#4 

Chamber of Chills#4 features only a few characters. It features Murdoch Adams, Lenore, a nameless priest, and Ludi. 

Ludi appears in a fb which relates how the Beaker People who built Stonehenge worshipped him, and how he was freed in industrial times. Note that the Caretakers or Arcturus built Stonehenge and that Ultimus was imprisoned underneath Stonehenge thousands of years ago by Lord Tantalus. 


ADAMS, MURDOCH 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 4 
**DRSTR2 35 
**DRSTR2 36 
**DRSTR2 37 


LUDI 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 4-FB 
CHAMBER OF CHILLS 4 
DRSTR2 35 


WILKINS, LENORE 
**CHAMBER OF CHILLS 4 
**DRSTR2 36 


Also, this issue features a sequel to the Poe story "Cask of Amontialldo" called the "Opener of the Crypt", written by John Jakes himself! 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jakes 
http://www.johnjakes.com/northandsouth.htm 
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/John_Jakes.htm 

Anyway, it features Paul Montr (descendant of Montressor), a Professor Armaux, and Fortunato. Unless Marvel Classic Comics counts as canon, I doubt that Fortunato has appeared on Earth-616. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cask_of_Amontillado 


On Belasco 

http://www.unfluffybunny.com/cripp12/26/th_belascoback.jpg 

The letters page in that issue or one after it mention how they wanted to use Mephisto, but roped in Belasco instead. 

LUCIFER, REV./REV. SAMMY SMITH 
PUN2 35 
PUN2 36 
PUN2 37 
PUN2 38-BTS 
PUN2 39 
PUN2 40

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 10:45 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
This issue also features an adaptation of the Howard story "The Thing on the Roof". The only claim to Earth-616 canonicity is that it references Von Junzt's Book Nameless Cults, which has also been name checked in Doctor Strange. No character gets his full name given. Do you want a summary of this story? 
<<<

Thanks, Enda80. I don't see the need for an analysis of a story that we believe is not canon. This looks good. 


watching: both sides

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Aug 2005 01:49 am    
By Enda80

Justin Geoffrey is also referenced, and he was mentioned in Savage Sword#74/2.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Aug 2005 06:55 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

That's a pretty vague connection. This simply indicates that the Universes in both stories have a Lovecraft mythos. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Aug 2005 07:05 am    
By Enda80

http://www.drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/v_VonJunztsUnausprechlichenKulten.htm 


Von Junzts Unausprechlichen Kulten 



Black Sea Scrolls, the Thanatosian Tomes, and Von Junzts Unausprechlichen Kulten. All three of these are chronicles of the mystical dark doings in the Universe. What all three have in common is that they all tell of a cosmic obscenity that slumbers, but yet may awaken. These are believed to be references to Shuma-Gorath and were warnings of the Ancient One to Doctor Strange before he began stumbling upon the minions of He Who Sleeps, But Will Awaken. 

Other forbidden spells or references are contained within these chronicles. This does not necessarily mean that all the magic found within these works is chaotic magic, just that it was forbidden to be practiced at the time of the works creation. 

Von Junzt was a German eccentric. In this book he also wrote of The Black Stone in the moutains of Hungary near Stregoicavar. 

In Journey Into Mystery#3, a man is show going through 
various occult books. Mentioned are the Necronomicon, 
the Book of Eibon, and De Vermis Mysterii "Mysteries 
of the Worm". Written by Ludving Prinn in the 1500's, 
an alchemist said to have lived for 500 years. 
Allegedly having invisible demon companions, Prinn was 
finally killed by witch-hunters. Awaiting immolation 
at the stake, he wrote his book. 


Scarlet Witch#1 
On page 29, Agatha Harkness mentions The Book of 
Eibon, The Celeano Fragment, the Pnakotic Manuscripts, 
the Vermis Mysteriis, Karkoth's 
Ensorcielammia, and the Necronomicon. 

The Necronomicon has also been referenced in Marvel Team-Up#80 (by Marie Laveau. 

The Book of Eibon has been seen in Doctor Strange III#8 and referenced in Magik II#1. 

Just mentioning this so all cards are on the table, metaphorically speaking.

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 05:16 am    Post subject: Vision and Scarlet Witch II#5 ghosts
By Enda80

Aside from Salem's Seven, other ghosts include 

Dracula 
Korvac 
Phoenix 
Egghead? 
Count Nefaria 
Baron Zemo 
Baron Strucker 
Crimson Dynamo 
Whizzer 
Miss America 

Agatha Harkness 

and Magda on page 15 

Okay, who was revealed as never having died? 


http://www.comicboards.com/mub/view.php?trd=050814111621 

for image

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 03:23 pm    Post subject: Chronology for Access
By wolframbane

Chronology for Access. After each listing indiciates wether it is a Marvel, DC or Amalgam title. 

DC vs Marvel #2 (fb) (DC/M) 
Green Lantern/ Silver Surfer: Unholy Alliances (bts) (DC/M) 
DC vs Marvel #1 (DC/M) 
Marvel vs DC #2 (DC/M) 
Marvel vs DC #3 (DC/M) 
Dr. Strangefate #1 (Amalgam) 
DC vs Marvel #4 (DC/M) 
All Access #1 (fb) (DC/M) 
All Access #1 (DC/M) 
All Access #2 (DC/M) 
All Access #3 (DC/M) 
All Access #4 (DC/M) 
Green Lantern #87 (DC) 
Unlimited Access #1 (DC/M) 
Unlimited Access #2 (DC/M) 
Unlimited Access #3 (DC/M) 
Unlimited Access #4 (DC/M) 
(Superman/Fantastic Four (bts) (DC/M)

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 03:14 pm    Post subject: Additional appearance for X-Men 2013 (Days of Future Past)
By wolframbane

Here is an additional appearance for the X-Men of 2013 (Days of Future Past). 

Unlimited Access #1 
Access and Jonah Hex becomes lost in time and dimensions. Hex finds himself in the DC Universe in 2050 (Hex #1). Access finds himself in the DOFP timeline with the Legion of Super Heroes facing an Omega Sentinel. 

Unlimited Access #2 
Access and the Legion escape with Wolverine, who mentions it is 2012 (one year before events of DOFP). They meet the surviving X-Men (Storm, Magneto, Shadowcat. Colossus, Rachel Summers, and Franklin Richards). Brainiac 5 negates the inhibitor collars. Access and the Legion return to their own time. The Sentinels attack, capturing the X-Men, whose memories of Access and the Legion fade. Magneto is impaled throught the back, paralyzing him (which is why he is in a wheelchair in 2013).

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 04:08 pm    
By Starman

In "Wolverine: Days of Future Past" Magneto gets injured and paralyzed, in a similar way as Professor X got in his first meeting with Lucifer, and winds up in a wheel chair. If both W: DOFP and Unlimited Access happened Magneto somehow healed and got injured and paralyzed again.
_________________
John Hartigan: 
"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- Sin City (2005)

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 05:51 pm
By wolframbane

In Wolverine: Days of Future Past, did it say say what year it occurred. Unlimited Access #2 indicated it was 2012.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 07:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't know the exact year listed, but W:DoFP occurs before UA. 

The two scenarios for Magneto's paralysis could be a problem -- unless, yeah, you assume he got healed in-between. IIRC, W:DoFP has injuries to his legs and UA has injuries to his spine ... maybe, between W:DoFP and UA, Magneto's broken bones healed -- but the severed spinal column in UA put him back in the wheelchair for life. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Tales of Suspense #69
By Dhall

I'm reading Tales of Suspense #69, when I notice something about Iron Man's listing. 

First: Iron Man has no listing for Marvels #2. 

Second: IN Marvels 2 (near the end) which is supposed to occur on the same night as FF @3, there is an television advertisment for the fight between Iron Man and the Titianium Man (TOS 69) The fight is being advertised as on Sunday. 

This means that the first portion of tos 69 occurs BEFORE FF@3/Marvels 2. 

Specifically, the first seven pages of TOS 69 concern the creation of the Titanium Man, and Tony Stark deciding if he should accept the Titanium Man's challenge. These scenes have to come before Marvels 2 (and thus before FF@3.) (The first two panels of page 8, where Tony tells Happy and Pepper they are coming with him probably also occur at that time too.) 

The rest of TOS 69, (the actual fight) can happen where it is listed in the MCP. 

Iron Man 
TOS 67 
TOS 68 
S&L 1/3 
**TOS 69 Pages 1-8 panel 2 
FF@ 3 
**Marvels 2 
TOS 69 Page 8 panel 3-Page 11 
TOS 70 



Please note that I suspect some characters may be missing from Marvels 2 & M/H&L listings. (I noticed that Batroc appears in M/H&L, despite his first app. listed as being in TOS 75. So does the monster Grogoom.)

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 21 Jul 2005 03:47 pm    Post subject: Astonishing X-Men #11 [SPOILERS]
By Somebody

Ummm... trying to fit this together with Excalibur v3 looks like it might be... problematic. There's an oblique reference to Magneto at the start, but no sign of Callisto, et al, and Genosha's a reddened, blasted wasteland still. Yet surely, between Excalibur having no Reload gap and UXM460's placement of Gifted, there's no way this can go before the six month gap in Exc v3 #11. 

And wasn't that big Sentinel turned into the Magneto statue? (which was then in turn reshaped into the Magneto/Xavier statue Unus and co were living in in Exc v3 by Polaris). Not to mention Claremont's never-explained anti-tech field which should have eroded any surviving stuff away...

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 06:18 am    
By jephyork
Director

Wait ... WHY can't it go right before the end of the six-month gap? 

As for the Mega-Sentinel at the end, that annoyed me too, until I remembered that Genosha was obliterated by *more than one* Sentinel. Presumably this is "the other one"... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jul 2005 03:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody said: 
>>>
There's an oblique reference to Magneto at the start, but no sign of Callisto, et al, and Genosha's a reddened, blasted wasteland still.  
<<<

Nothing is explicitly stated that suggests that this story occurs before Callisto et al join Xavier on Genosha. Lack of evidence cannot be used as evidence. For all we know, the cast of XCAL3 could be busy on a rebuilding project elsewhere on the island and either: (a) Xavier doesn't want to endanger them by calling them in; or b) communications on the island are not working. And of course Magneto is too focused on Wanda to do much of anything these days. As for Genosha still being a wasteland, I suppose we may be seeing a different area of Hammer Bay in ASTONX3 from what is seen in XCAL3. 

I have ASTONX3 7-12 firmly after the first part of XCAL3 11. Actually, I have it tentatively placed after XCAL3 14.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Jul 2005 01:39 am    
By Col_Fury

One bit of help is in some dialogue by Cyclops. He mentioned that he'd 'almost' forgotten that the Professor had gone to Genosha, inferring that everyone(almost) either wasn't aware of it in the first place, or had 'forgotten' themselves.(probably a mind-wipe by Xavier) 

How this helps: Angel was 'sent' to Genosha to be with Xavier at the start of Re-Load but he never showed up.(yeah, he was in Excalibur near the end, but he never went to Genosha) I'm guessing that Xavier didn't want Angel's help, so he made him 'forget.' This is more help story-wise in Angel's case, if not chronologically. Unless of course, Xavier gets a Behind-the-Scenes credit for that issue of X-Men where everyone gets their team assignments...

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Posted: 25 Jul 2005 02:56 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
inferring that everyone(almost) either wasn't aware of it in the first place, or had 'forgotten' themselves.(probably a mind-wipe by Xavier) 
<<<

 
Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I'm guessing that Xavier didn't want Angel's help, so he made him 'forget.' 
<<<

 
If he is so casually erasing the memories of his former students, that would pretty much be the end of his usefulness to the X-Men, not to mention the end of his realistic portrayal as an heroic character. 


watching: ancient mysteries

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Posted: 25 Jul 2005 11:22 pm    
By Col_Fury

It does seem pretty brutal, doesn't it? His ruthlessness was brought up by the "Danger" villain in this issue: 

She says "The X-Men. They don't have the slightest idea of who you really are, do they?", to which Xavier says "I like to think that Jean knew." 

At one point, he let his students believe him to be dead because he & Jean were preparing for ... Jeez, an alien invasion? I can't remember why he faked his death with "Changeling", or "Morph" as he's called in Exiles... but he let the guy die to pull one over on his X-Men!  They even had a funeral for him! Makes you wonder why anyone hangs out with him anymore... 

Back to the subject: He had just gone off to Genosha to hang out with Magneto, who everyone is under the impression that he had demolished half of New York.(actually Xorneto, headache....) He's always been a pretty secretive guy, but I can see why he'd like to keep this one hush-hush. Cyclops says "He made us swear not to tell....I half forgot myself." It probably wasn't the best way to handle things, but if he's willing to let everyone think he's dead, what's a few memories?( to me, it'd be a huge invasion of respect & privacy, but I mean to Xavier...) 

But you're right. It doesn't exactly speak volumes about his character, or morals for that matter.

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Posted: 26 Jul 2005 12:11 am    
By Col_Fury

Z'Nox; that's the alien race that was going to invade Earth that I couldn't remember a half hour ago. I had to flip through some old X-Men issues to figure this out, it was driving me nuts! So Changeling had cancer & wanted to redeem himself, but why would Professor X let his students believe him to be dead? Jean knew, but couldn't tell anyone without "the Professor's permission." I think the line in Astonishing #11 about how Xavier "would like to think that Jean knew" what kind of a guy he was made by brain access that old Z'Nox story, which is probably why it didn't seem as much of a leap to me that he would alter a memory or two in light of his current situation. To Xavier, the 'fate of the world' was at stake. An alien race was attacking, & only he could stop them! More currently, the world believes that Magneto destroyed big chunks of New York, & the 'fate of human/mutant relations' was at stake. Humans would retaliate against mutants, & only he could fix it! Xavier knows best, I 'suppose.' 

Now that I think of it, wasn't Xavier Onslaught? Or rather a mix of Xavier & Magneto.... perhaps Xavier's going back to old habits? Just a thought. 

The 'next issue' blurb in the letters page has the team walking away from Xavier, & the caption reads: "Xavier's a jerk!". "Jerk" sums him up nicely, if erasing memories is what he's been up to.(not the Steve Martin Jerk, but the other kind...)

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Posted: 26 Jul 2005 01:26 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

I'm wondering if this line from Astonishing X-Men #11 is going to be chronologically problematical: 

Beast, page 9 panel 4: "Soon as I check the children I'll see if the Avengers have anything lying around --" 

He's talking about ways to get transport to Genosha with the Blackbird gone. To me the Avengers line seems a bit iffy - it's implying that the Avengers are still active, which would place this storyline either before Avengers Disassembled or after New Avengers #6 (or whenever the public learns about the New Avengers). 

Is either feasible? I assume that this arc can't really go before Disassembled, but I also wonder why Beast would be contacting the New Avengers instead of Wolverine.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 26 Jul 2005 02:28 pm   
By Chris McCarver

I'm resigned to place the Danger arc after Disassembled, but prior to New Avengers. It's possible Hank meant "anything lying around" more as "Avengers post-disbanding surplus." Despite the destruction of the mansion, a number of Quinjets did survive, as, after Magneto spirited Wanda away, the Avengers who couldn't fly departed in them.
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: 26 Jul 2005 09:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Why prior to New Avengers?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Jul 2005 10:30 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

To be honest, I interpretted the line the same way Chris McCarver has: 

Quote: 
>>>
It's possible Hank meant "anything lying around" more as "Avengers post-disbanding surplus." 
<<<

If this is set post-New Avengers #1, then why isn't it Wolverine speaking the line, saying he'll check with his fellow Avengers to see if they've got an extra Quinjet. Instead, it's Beast who says the line, and he's a member of the OLD Avengers. 

And doesn't that ship the Xmen arrive in look a little like the old Quinjets? Though it was Reed Richards navigating the ship after the Xmen parachuted out...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 01:10 am    
By Chrisday

Danger makes the uber-sentinel reconstruct itself, but it is later seen as normal with the Xavier and Magneto shape to it in Excalibur #11 part 2 and Excalibur #12. 

i couldn't figure out this problem either, i also can't see the second arc of Astonishing X-men taking place after Excalibur #14

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 06:16 am    
By jephyork
Director

There were two mega-Sentinels. See above. Presumably one's the statue and one's been ressurected from the ocean bottom. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 25

Posted: 13 Aug 2005 04:02 pm    Post subject: Uatu the Watche appearance
By wolframbane

An appearance for Uatu that may have been overlooked. 
Within the comic adaptation of the animated series, the comic X-Men Adventures #1 (Nov 1992) briefly features a prologue bu Uatu. The prologue is similar to the prologues he delivers in What If...?. It would actually seem that he is the 'mainstream' Uatu, and introduces the X-Men Adventures universe as an alternate universe.

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 06:48 pm    
By Enda80

Adventures of the X-Men IS canon-it takes place in the Pre-Big Bang universe of Galen of Taa....the future Galactus 
Posted by John McDonagh on August 02, 2003 at 20:57:25: 

Adventures of the X-Men#12 reveals that Adventures of the X-Men was canonical. It reveals that the destruction of Galen of Taa's universe was caused by counterparts of the Dweller in Darkness and D'Spayre. Jean Grey became Phoenix, the Living Tribunal called upon the Spectre and the Brothers from the DC vs. Marvel mini-series (I kid you not) and the Phoenix approached Galen of Taa and told him how he would become Galactus. 

Galen of Taa's universe ended, and a new universe began-the current universe. Eventually, the current universe produced its own X-Men. 

So Adventures of the X-Men is in-continuity, but just set in the pre-Big Bang universe. I guess the only character we should add appearances for it from would be Galactus. 

* * * 

What? 
Posted by Jeph! on August 03, 2003 at 00:18:32: 
In Reply to: Adventures of the X-Men IS canon-it takes place in the Pre-Big Bang universe of Galen of Taa....the future Galactus 
posted by John McDonagh on August 02, 2003 at 20:57:25: 

The series that retold the cartoons in comic format? 

Can you give a little more detail about this? 

-Jeph! 

* * * 

Re: What? 
Posted by DCW3 on August 03, 2003 at 16:42:38: 
In Reply to: What? 
posted by Jeph! on August 03, 2003 at 00:18:32: 

> The series that retold the cartoons in comic format? 

Yep. 

> Can you give a little more detail about this? 

Snood of the Appendix has a somewhat more detailed account of the issue at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers.htm : 

"In--of all places--The Adventures of the X-Men#12, the hierarchy of the Brothers (as higher than the Living Tribunal) is disputed. This is a somewhat interesting series, as I had initially just assumed it to be adaptations of the X-Men cartoon. I watched the first season or two, but didn't continue to follow it, so I can't confirm or deny this as being the case. However/Anyway, in this issue, the demons D'Spayre and the Dweller-in-Darkness instigate the destruction of the M'Kraan Crystal, which in turn destroys all reality. Phoenix harnesses all of the positive emotions of everyone in the universe and uses this energy to have the sentience of the universe join with Galan of Taa and allow him to survive the destruction of the universe, and to ultimately become Galactus in that Universe. So, the implication is that the events of that series (and possibly of the cartoon) took place in the universe before the current one." 

* * * 


Adventures of the X-Men featured original material that took place in the pre-Big Bang universe, which it turns out was very similar to the current universe; it was not just an adaption of the cartoon show 
Posted by John McDonagh on August 03, 2003 at 16:42:54: 
In Reply to: What? 
posted by Jeph! on August 03, 2003 at 00:18:32: 

Adventures of the X-Men was not an adaptation of the cartoon show. Rather, it featured original material. It was drawn in a different style than the usual comics. 

In Adventures of the X-Men#11, the X-Men encountered D'Spayre and the Dweller in Darkness. In Adventures of the X-Men#12, the Dweller in Darkness caused the destruction of the M'Kraan crystal. Jean Grey was forced to once again become Phoenxi to try to prevent the M'Kraan crystal from destroying the world. Phoenix attempted to stop it, but could not. 

Meanwhile, Galen of Taa was exploring the universe, seeing how the destruction of the M'Kraan crystal was causing it to collapse. 

The Dweller in Darkness looked on in glee, for the massive fear that would result from the end of the universe would make him omnipotent. 

The Living Tribunal observed all this, and in his hand he held the Brothers (from the DC vs. Marvel mini-series). The Living Tribunal held them in his palm as he waited, for he had to confer with the Spectre (from the DC worlds, his "hooded spectral ally". 

The Phoenix then realized that the universe would end, but there would be a new universe if she united all the minds of the universe (as well as the mind of Arkon). The Phoenix told them not to feel fear when the universe ended, but to remember that a new universe would emerge. 

Nobody in the universe felt fear when the end came, cheating the Dweller in Darkness. Meanwhile, Galen of Taa continued his trip to the center of the collapsing universe. The Phoenix contacted him. 

"Hear me, Last Son of Taa--I am the sentience of the universe--Like yourself I am dying but we need not die without heir". The Phoenix told Galen that in this new universe, a being called Galactus would emerge. 

Then the Living Tribunal allowed the Brothers (from the DC Vs. Marvel mini-series) to leave his hand, and a new universe was created-the current universe, which as happened with Galen of Taa's universe, had its own X-Men. The Watcher (who narrates this issue) states "What had gone before returns, in newer more wondrous manner". 

Bet nobody saw this coming. 

Some other original material in Adventures of the X-Men: 

And even Marvel's most popular superheroes by far, the uncanny X-Men, have met up with the Cthulhu Mythos! THE ADVENTURES OF THE X-MEN # 4 featured a tale called "When The Dweller Awakes," in which Cyclops, longtime leader of the team, joins forces with Erich Zann, and with the aid of the R'lyeh Text they banish the demonic hordes knows the N'Garai -- who are themselves bent on freeing a montrous tentacled Old One slumbering beneath the city of New Salem. The giant tentacle which emerges from the earth's depths is truly awe-inspiring! 

> The series that retold the cartoons in comic format? 

> Can you give a little more detail about this? 

* * * 

Adventures of the X-Men actually featured original material. It was similar to Batman Adventures/TMNT Adventures/etc. The stories were influenced by the cartoon, but actually were original. 

Issue#11-12 showed that Adventures of the X-Men took place in the universe that existed before the Big Bang-the universe of Galen of Taa. This universe had its own X-Men. 

In the last issue, the Dweller in Darkness causes the destruction of the universe by cracking the M'Krann crystal. We see Galen of Taa discover this and head out to lead his crew on one last trip of glory. 

As this goes on, the Living Tribunal summons the Brothers from the DC Vs. Marvel series and consults with the Spectre. (I kid you not.) A new universe will emerge, at which point the Living Tribunal will release the Brothers. 

Meanwhile, Jean Grey becomes Phoenix and links all life forms in the universe (and Arkon). She tells them not to feel fear, as the Dweller in Darkness feeds on fear. She soothes them by telling them that a new universe will emerge after this one dies. 

The result is that nobody feels fear as the universe ends. The Phoenix then contacts Galen of Taa, and informs him that he will become Galactus in the New Universe. 

The Living Tribunal releases the Brothers from the DC Vs. Marvel mini-series and a new universe is formed. This new universe greatly resembles the old universe, in that it has its own X-Men. This is the current universe, the Earth-616 universe. 

One day, Charles Xavier informs his students that one Miss Jean Grey will be joining them......... 

The Watcher narrates this issue and says "What Had Gone Before returns in a newer, more wondrous manner!". 

So, there you have it, the full origin of Galactus. We finally found out what his universe was like. 

* * * 
Featuring the Earth-616 Uatu 

counterparts of 
Rogue 
Gambit 
Jean Grey 
Cyclops 
Prof X 
Lilandra 
Wolverine 
Jubilee 
Storm 
Beast 
Gladiator 
Phoenix 
Dweller In Darkness 
D'Spayre 
Skrulls 
Badoon 
Ronan the Accusser 
Una? 
Mar-vell? 
Supreme Intelligence 
Arkon 
Man-Thing 


Not sure about 
Living Tribunal 
Spectre 
Brothers 
Galactus 
D'Ken 
N'Garai

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 08:35 am    
By jephyork
Director

Just because a comic book tells a story, it doesn't automatically follow that that story is canon. 

Are we to seriously believe that the universe before this one had heroes, villains and situations that were nearly identical to the current universe? That's stretching the concept a little too far for me. 

To my mind, "Adventures of the X-Men" follows "X-Men Adventures" in that they both told tales set in the cartoon universe. If that cartoon universe ended and began again, fine. But just because it tells *a* story of the creation of Galactus in the next universe, it doesn't automatically make that the *canon* origin of *our* Galactus. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 09:52 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Just because a comic book tells a story, it doesn't automatically follow that that story is canon. 
<<<

Exactly. To my mind, contending that the previous universe was almost exactly like the current one is evidence that the story is not canon. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 11:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Nonetheless, this version of events has been accepted as canon by both the OFFICIAL HANDBOOK and the FANTASTIC FOUR ENCYCLOPAEDIA, so Marvel appear to regard it as valid. 

It's not entirely off the wall to suggest that the universe is going round in some sort of endless loop, to be honest.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 06:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Man alive, there's all KINDS of wacky crap in this new batch of handbooks, isn't there? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 06:29 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

In fairness to the HANDBOOK, this one was in the FF ENCYCLOPAEDIA first. Which isn't to say that the HANDBOOK is doing a great job with this sort of thing - it seems to have developed a manic obsession with mentioning absolutely everything, the result of which is a bunch of entries that race through namechecking a ton of stories without properly explaining them, and wasting tons of space that could be used to better explain the stories which are actually important. I cannot for the life of me work out why somebody thought the Defenders entry needed a lengthy summary of the Lunatik storyline, or why Excalibur's entry required to mention their guest appearance in an issue of THOR.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 26

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 01:37 pm    Post subject: Marvel Timeline Years 1-8 as per X-Men Index
By wolframbane

Here is the quick layout of the Marvel timeline as set out by the X-Men Index v1. There is another for the Fantastic Four (anyone?) and perhaps other indexes as well. 

UXM: X-Men v1, Uncanny X-Men 
GXM: Giant-Size X-Men 
FF: Fantastic Four v1 
AMF: Amazing fantasy v1 
AVG: Avengers v1 
AMS: Amazing Spider-Man 
HLK: Hulk 
MTU: Marvel Team-Up 

YEAR ONE 
Apr. AMF 15 
May. UXM 38-42/2, UXM 44-46/2 
Autumn. UXM 55-56/2 

YEAR TWO 
Oct. UXM 50-53/2, UXM 1 

YEAR THREE 
Feb. UXM 5 
Apr. UXM 7-8 
May. UXM 8-10 
Jun. UXM 10-13 
Jul. UXM 14-18 
Aug. UXM 19-24, FF An 3 
Sep. UXM 24-25 
Oct. UXM 26-27 
Nov. UXM 27 
Dec. UXM 28-29 

YEAR FOUR 
Jan. UXM 30-31 
Feb. UXM 32-33 
Mar. UXM 34 
Apr. UXM 35-45 
May. UXM 46-48 
Jun. UXM 49-52 
Sep. UXM 53, AVG 60 
Oct. UXM 54-66, HLK 150, FF 102, AMS 92, AVG 83 
Dec. FF 102 

YEAR FIVE 
Jan. AVG 88, FF 105 

YEAR SIX 
Jan. AVG 110-111 
May. MTU 23, GXM 1 

YEAR SEVEN 
Aug. UXM 93-96 
Oct. UXM 97 
Dec. UXM 98-101 

YEAR EIGHT 
Jan. UXM 101 
Mar. UXM 103-108 
Apr. UXM 110 
Apr-Jun. UXM 111-124 
September. UXM 125 
Oct. UXM 125-138 
Autumn. UXM An 4 
Dec. UXM 143

Last edited by wolframbane on 14 Aug 2005 06:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 10:50 am    
By wolframbane

According to the X-Men Index, about 8 years have passed between 1961 and 1980. There are obviously many conflicting references and opinions with regards to this, but does anyone know what the 'generally accepted' amount of time has passed during the Silver and Modern Ages in recent years since 1961 to today?

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 11:40 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It's been discussed many times, in quite a bit of detail. 

You can search recent messages here on the forums; 

check the archives for messages more than a year old: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/archive/ 

and peruse the last two years of Paul Bourcier's calendar: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/calendar1.htm 


watching: live from

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 08:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
and peruse the last two years of Paul Bourcier's calendar 
<<<

Word the wise: there are a number of additions and changes to be made that portion of the calendar, and it's being brought closer to the present. ETA -- late October. 

But, to get to the heart of this thread, yes, the calendar does reflect an extrapolation of the passage of time as laid out by Olshevsky and company. Many (and I'm sure that number includes the powers-that-be at Marvel) refute this calendar, claiming that much less time has passed since FF 1. Those threads that Russ mentioned covered the arguments in some detail. Very interesting theories.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 27

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 09:54 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man/New Avengers
By Col_Fury

We already know that there has to be a huge gap in Amazing Spider-Man 515, as was already covered here: http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1402 
I'm trying to make sense of current Spider-Man books & how they fit into New Avengers so it's all pre-HoM. So... 

New Avengers 1-6 happens during the gap in ASM 515, & there's a week gap between New Avengers 6 & 7. 

The rest of Skin Deep in ASM 515-519 covers 4 days. The end of ASM 515 is day 1, 516 is day 2, 517 is also day 2 to the morning of day 3, 518 is day 3, & 519 is day 4 when they move into Avengers Tower. 

Spider-Man: Breakout is one night & the next day. It's probably the night of New Avengers 6, leading into the next day. 

Marvel Team-Up 7-10 is all in one night, 11 is shortly after that, Spider-Man is still in his apartment in 7-10. Captain America mentions to Wolverine that "he's an Avenger now," so that puts this after New Avengers 1-6. 

ASM 520-523 looks like it's 3 days so far, but the story isn't over yet. Also, MK/SM looks like it's also about 3 days, but it's not over yet, either. It's also possible that MK/SM has a few unspecified gaps in it, so we could have the training of the team before the Sentry arc, & the rest of the story afterwards. 

ASM 515-519 shows Spider-Man moving into Avengers Tower, so it must precede MK/SM. There's an unspecified gap between ASM 519 & 520. MK/SM shows the Avengers training with no Sentry, but ASM 520 shows the Avengers out & about without the Sentry, either. There's only a week gap between New Avengers 6 & 7, so not all of this can fit in. Some of it has to happen after the Sentry story in New Avengers 8-10, so I'm just assuming that the Sentry's in the bathroom or something while the Avengers are fighting Hydra in ASM. So... 

New Avengers 1-6 
Spider-Man: Breakout 1-5 
MTU 7-10,11 
ASM 515-519 
Some of MK/SM 13-18 
New Avengers 7-10 
The rest of MK/SM 13-18 
ASM 520-523 or so 
New Avengers 11-13 
HoM 

The good news is that when the current Spider-plots wrap up, the next arc is "The Other" crossover, which is post-HoM, & a crossover, which will make the Spider-books easy to track for a few months. What do you think?
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 16 Aug 2005 06:26 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have several observations about the sequence you offer, Col_Fury. 

1) A4 7-10 occur a "week" after A4 1-6. SM:BO 1-5 occur "three weeks" after A4 1-6. Thus SM:BO must occur after A4 7-10. 

2) ASM 515 (page 19 on)-519 continue directly into ASM 520-524. (And this whole range of issues follows closely on the heels on PPTSS2 23-26, given Peter's line in ASM 517 about having just returned from Paris.) 

3) Peter calls in sick to school in ASM 516. In M/KSM 13, it's the first day of "summer school," and Peter fails to get a teaching assignment for the summer; he has to go work for the Bugle. Thus ASM 515-524 must occur before M/KS-M 13-18. 

4) I'm not sure why you've inserted a break in M/KSM 13-18; it seems to be uninterrupted. 

5) Nova refers to the "New Avengers" in M/TU3 11. This must occur after the existence of the New Avengers becomes public knowledge in A4 7. Thus, M/TU3 7-12 must occur after A4 7-10. 

6) I'm under the impression that there isn't much of a gap between M/TU3 6 and 7, given the Titannus sub-plot. Folks may be inserting a gap here for Nick Fury's sake, but we do know from HERC 4-5 that Fury is back in charge of SHIELD sometime after A4 1-6 -- perhaps after A4 13, given the plot that appears to be coming in A4 11-13. We might have to end up putting M/TU3 1-12 after A4 13. Also, Spidey's reference to "Steve" instead of "Cap," and the reference to Logan being on "too many teams" works so much better after Logan joins the New Avengers. 

7) Peter and M.J. are in their apartment in M/TU3 10, so M/TU3 7-12 must occur before ASM 515-524 -- that's right. 

8) And there they are in their apartment again in SM:BO 1, so you are correct in placing SM:BO 1-5 before ASM 515-524. 

9) Back to M/KSM 13-18 and the reference to "summer school" -- this may or may not occur after HOM, depending on whether HOM ends up occurring isochronally with the end of the school year shown in NX 14. 

So where does this leave us? Perhaps a sequence like this: 

A4 1-6 
ASM 515 (Stark meets with Wiederman) 
A4 7-13 
M/TU3 1-12 
SM:BO 1-5 
PPTSS2 23-26 
ASM 515-524 
M/KSM 13-18 

I think...
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 28

Posted: 15 Aug 2005 11:01 am    Post subject: WHAT IF...? as mainstream Earth-616 references
By wolframbane

I have found that for most of the What If...? comics, they start with a prologue (often by Uatu) discussing how events occurred on Earth-616 up until the 'point of divergence' that creates an alternate timeline. 

Are the events leading up to the point of divergence considered part of Earth-616 continuity, and then at the point of divergence one timeline continues as Earth-616 continuity and another timeline becomes the What If...? continuity? Or is the entire What If...? story considered a separate alternate reality entirely, with the prologue not occuring on Earth-616 but on that alternate Earth? 

And if the prologues are considered part of Earth-616 continuity up until the point of divergence, would they be added to the Chronology for the charcter?

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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 04:29 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I've been analyzing as many What If? issues as I can get my hands on over in the Issue Analysis forum. 

I personally consider any all-new pre-divergence moments to be canon ... and as far as I know, nobody here disagrees with this. I'm unsure if any of my suggested additions have made their way onto the MCP, but I know there's a long line of more important updates ahead of them. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 29

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 02:23 pm    Post subject: New Avengers #8 / House of M
By Paul O'Brien
Director

New Avengers #8 shows the Avengers and Cyclops' squad of X-Men joining forces for the first time, only around a week after the new Avengers form, and long before they meet up in House of M #1. 

I suggest that this is the meeting which the X-Men are running off to attend in New X-Men #13, the last day of the school term. This is consistent with the dialogue, and has a happy side effect - it generates a nice big gap of school holidays before House of M starts. This provides New X-Men: Hellions with an opportunity to happen. (It's actually intended to come after House of M, but a change in future plans is apparently rendering that impossible, because the new New X-Men creative team want to pick up immediately after House of M.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 03:30 pm    
By Col_Fury

I agree with this sugggestion. See my reasoning in this topic: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1519 

I warn you, some of it is....lengthy. To cut down on wading time, this is covered in my Aug 8, 1:11 AM post. Look under the 'list' for 'New Avengers clues,' point #3.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2005 03:34 pm    
By Col_Fury

Here it is. 

Quote: 
>>>
3. Speaking of confronting the Sentry, at the end of New Avengers #8 the New Avengers, Fantastic Four, Inhumans, X-Men, & SHIELD are all together to confront the Sentry after Captain America & Iron Man's first try earlier in the same issue. Iron Man calls the New Avengers that are fighting the Wrecker to meet them, which they do. This meeting may be what Cyclops is referring to in New X-Men #14, instead of HoM. Iron Man could have called the others teams to meet before calling the rest of the New Avengers, which could explain why Cyclops had to bow out of 'Prizegiving Day' in New X-Men; it was a 'drop everything & show up' meeting, not a 'planned out' meeting as depicted in HoM. 
4. Speaking of the HoM meeting, MTU #10 had Captain America & Wolverine exchanging information on the Scarlet Witch, among other things. This could be the planning stages of the meeting shown in HoM.  
<<<

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 05:16 pm    
By Somebody

Isn't the meeting referred to in Hellions #1 "tomorrow"? Emma tells Julian (in flashback) that they've got to go and see the Avengers "tomorrow," and thus won't be at the prizegiving (and thus next day they fly out and the Blob heads for the mansion).

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 06:02 pm    
By Col_Fury

In New X-Men 14, Cyclops says on the day of prize-giving; "The X-Men have been asked to meet with the Avengers, Danielle. It's apparently very important." 

In New X-Men: Hellions 1, Emma Frost says on the day before prize-giving; "The X-Men have been called away on important business. I'm afraid I won't be at Prize-giving tomorrow." 

She never says Avengers in Hellions. Also, she only says that she won't be at prize-giving, but she does imply to Julian that the X-Men won't. This would explain why Danielle is so surprised that the entire team won't be at prize-giving when she finds out in New X-Men. 

So here's an idea, Emma & some X-Men had plans for the day of prize-giving, but they were cancelled when the Avengers called to confront the Sentry, & the other X-Men that were going to be at prize-giving cancelled those plans & let Danielle handle it. It's possible that the meeting Emma is talking about is something different; maybe a SHIELD briefing or something. What do you think?

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 08:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Or there's a day gap in A4 #8, between the Sentry flying off and all the heroes gathering at his house. Alternately, "prizegiving" could be a two-day event -- Emma won't be there "tomorrow", but she also won't be there for the rest of that day. It's not a big deal reconciling this "today/tomorrow" thing. The important thing is, we found a way for Hellions and the Yearbook to work. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Aug 2005 06:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The important thing is, we found a way for Hellions and the Yearbook to work.  
<<<

Why can't it work if the important meeting referenced in NX 14 and NX:H 1 is indeed the meeting in HOM 1? I don't have the Yearbook, but I don't see a problem with NX:H. 

My hunch is that, even though time is passing in the HOM reality, when the reset button is hit, everything will return to the way it was just before the reality wave it, including time itself. So even though page 4 of NX:H 1 occurs the day after page 3, it can also occur after the entire HOM series finishes, because, according to a "real MU" calendar, no time passes at all in HOM.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Aug 2005 07:58 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Why can't it work if the important meeting referenced in NX 14 and NX:H 1 is indeed the meeting in HOM 1? I don't have the Yearbook, but I don't see a problem with NX:H. 
<<<

There isn't one yet, but there will be. 

The problem is that the writers of NEW X-MEN certainly intended to refer to HOUSE OF M #1 in NEW X-MEN #13-14, by their own account. The idea was that HOUSE OF M took place immediately after the prizegiving and, once the world was restored, the X-Men's school proceeded to have its scheduled summer holiday, during which NEW X-MEN: HELLIONS would occur. 

That isn't happening any more, because the incoming writers want to pick up with the new cast including most of the Hellions - immediately after HOUSE OF M ends. Consequently, the intended window for NEW X-MEN: HELLIONS isn't there any more, and it will have to be shoved in as a pre-HOUSE OF M story.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 09 Aug 2005 07:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
That isn't happening any more, because the incoming writers want to pick up with the new cast including most of the Hellions - immediately after HOUSE OF M ends. Consequently, the intended window for NEW X-MEN: HELLIONS isn't there any more, and it will have to be shoved in as a pre-HOUSE OF M story. 
<<<

Oh, you've gotta be kidding.  Why do I get the sneaking feeling that the same change-horses-in-midstream approach is going to apply to the long-delayed Secret War #5?  

Oookay. So if we're going to make NM 14-15 and NM:H 1 tie in chronologically to A4 7-8, if A4 7-8 occur "one week" after A4 6, and if NM 14-15 occur at the end of a school year, that's going to place A4 1-6 in mid-May at the earliest. And if A4 1-6 occur "six months" after A 500-503, then Disassembled occurs in November. But of course we have the Halloween of FF 517 occurring after Disassembled. Bah. 

The whole "tomorrow" reference in NM 14 is a bit awkward if the tie-in is now A4 7-8, but I suppose it can be made to work if necessary. 

You know, it really was working before, when NM 14-15 was a tie-in to House of M...  

Although...who knows? Maybe some writer will give us another opportunity for the Astonishing team and the Assemblers to get together. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 09:54 pm    
By Hotcharokey

I see no problem with placing the Hellions limited series before House of M. I believe that the events of Hellions #1 occur during New X-Men #14-15. I have found a way to weave the Hellions' story, which occurs over three days, through New X-Men #14-15. 

Check this out: 

FRIDAY: Beast, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine help decorate for the school dance. Julian brags about the Hellions at the diner. (New X-Men #14) 

FRIDAY: Beast helps set up chairs for the Prizegiving Ceremony. At the same time, Julian talks to Emma. She tells him that she is leaving and will not be attending the Prizegiving Ceremony. (Hellions #1, "2 days ago") 

FRIDAY EVENING: The School's Spring Dance (New X-Men #14) 

SATURDAY MORNING: Scott and Emma tell Dani that the X-Men are meeting the Avengers and that they will not be attending the Prizegiving Ceremony. When the X-Men arrive in NYC, the Blob sees them and decides to attack the school. (New X-Men #14) 

SATUDAY AFTERNOON: The Annual Prizegiving Ceremony. Dani announces that the Hellions won the competition. (New X-Men #15) 

SATURDAY AFTERNOON: The Annual Prizegiving Ceremony. Julian accepts the prize and gives his acceptance speech. (Hellions #1, "1 day ago") 

SATURDAY AFTERNOON: The Annual Prizegiving Ceremony. While Julian gives his acceptance speech, other stuff happens that has absolutely nothing to do with the Hellions. The Blob attacks the school, only to be defeated by the students. (New X-Men #15) 

SUNDAY: Hellions are arrested at the airport (Hellions #1, "Today") 


Does this work for the rest of ya'll? 

C'mon, bring it on and tear this sucker apart. I dare ya, if ya can.

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 03:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

That bit's fine. The problem is the REST of the series, which is set in a post-HOUSE OF M summer holiday that isn't going to happen any more.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 07:58 am    
By Somebody

Hotcharokey wrote: 
>>>
Does this work for the rest of ya'll? 

C'mon, bring it on and tear this sucker apart. I dare ya, if ya can. 
<<<

Like Paul O said, that's not the problem bit (although you're still wrong - the Hellions, including Julian specifically, are involved in the fight with the Blob). The problem is the "present day" bits of Hellions #1 onward.

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 06:19 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
New Avengers #8 shows the Avengers and Cyclops' squad of X-Men joining forces for the first time, only around a week after the new Avengers form, and long before they meet up in House of M #1. 

I suggest that this is the meeting which the X-Men are running off to attend in New X-Men #13, the last day of the school term. 
<<<

One of the awkward things about this scenario is that, in A4 8, the X-Men and Avengers are together in Hartford, CT, not New York. Cap and Iron Man, in Nevada (or Arizona, take your pick  ), called the rest of their team and instructed them to meet them in Hartford. One presumes that Cap and Shellhead went to CT directly from out west and Spidey, Jessica, Cage, and Logan went to CT from New York. In NX 14, after being called away from Westchester by the Avengers, the X-Men appear (well, their jet appears) in New York City. Cap and Iron Man, who have the lowdown on Sentry and presumably are the ones who contacted the X-Men, are not there; they're heading from out west to CT to meet their teammates. Why not have the X-Men head directly to CT and get a briefing on board their jet, especially if the Sentry situation is so urgent? 

The other thing we'll need to be mindful of is how the end of the Sentry story arc in A4 will lead into House of M. Some folks have hinted that there will be a direct link, and if that's the case, we really don't gain anything by linking A4 8 to NM 14.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 07:02 am    
By Somebody

Well, the Ronin story is between the Sentry story and HoM, so the odds on there being an unbreakable link between the Sentry story & HoM are, at the very least, lessened if not eliminated.

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 09:39 am    
By jephyork
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
One of the awkward things about this scenario is that, in A4 8, the X-Men and Avengers are together in Hartford, CT, not New York. ... One presumes that Cap and Shellhead went to CT directly from out west and Spidey, Jessica, Cage, and Logan went to CT from New York. In NX 14, after being called away from Westchester by the Avengers, the X-Men appear (well, their jet appears) in New York City. 
<<<

Maybe the X-Men are in New York City picking up Logan, Spidey, Jessica and Cage? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 04:23 pm    
By Col_Fury

Here's the good news. My local comic shop gets advanced copies of Marvel books the week before they ship, & seeing as how Hellions 4 comes out next week, they had a copy for me to read. Don't worry, I won't ruin the story for any of you, just verify what DeFellipis & Weir said they were trying to do; ie: clean things up so that Hellions could happen pre-HoM. In issue 4, Julian makes a point of mentioning that the Hellions have cut theit vacation short, & asks if they can stay at the mansion for the summer. After re-reading issues 1-3, the only time refernces I caught was a "the next morning" caption in issue 1, & a"next day" caption in issue 2. 

So what I'm thinking is, the Hellions arrive in California, contact the Kingmaker, the next morning he shows up. He makes his offers, & the next day we see what everyone's wish is, *all on the same day,* instead of spread out as I had assumed earlier. That night they have a fight with Diamondback & Paladin, who's been hired by SHIELD, & the story wraps up in issue 4. So the way I'm looking at it is, the Hellions are away from the mansion a few days, a week tops. 

*If* the meeting Cyclops mentions in New X-Men 14 is for the Sentry, & the Hellions leave for California the next day, this could all fit together pretty nicely. However.... 

Here's the bad news. Someone(I'll leave him un-named until Wednesday, if you all prefer) makes an appearance in issue 4 that throws a wrench into everything. He's also revealed to be the person that hired Diamondback & Paladin, therefore behind the scenes for Hellions 2-4, which would negate this happening at the same time as the Sentry story over in New Avengers. Yuck. It's possible for it to happen afterwards, depending on how much time passes between the Sentry story & the Ronin/corruption in SHIELD story, & how much time passes between that & HoM. Double yuck.

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 08:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Here's the bad news. Someone(I'll leave him un-named until Wednesday, if you all prefer) makes an appearance in issue 4 that throws a wrench into everything. He's also revealed to be the person that hired Diamondback & Paladin, therefore behind the scenes for Hellions 2-4, which would negate this happening at the same time as the Sentry story over in New Avengers. Yuck. It's possible for it to happen afterwards, depending on how much time passes between the Sentry story & the Ronin/corruption in SHIELD story, & how much time passes between that & HoM. Double yuck. 
<<<

No, no. Not yuck at all. If the mystery man is who I think it is, things should fit as I thought it might. (See another thread for observations concerning the story of a certain demi-god.) 

You're saying that there's a short time span in NX:H, that Julian cuts the team's summer vacation short and asks to stay at the Institute for the summer. This makes it possible for the Hellions to be back at the mansion within days after House of M would wrap up (a return to the same point in time that Wanda altered reality), if the tie-in is with HOM instead of A4 8. 

1) The Hellions attend the Prizegiving 
2) Later that day, they are shunted into Wanda's new reality and return back to that point in time, stripped of memories of the altered reality 
3) The next day, they leave for California and contact Kingmaker 
4) The day after that, the Kingmaker arrives, gives them a glimpse of their dreams come true (were those scenes real?), and dispatches them to GenetAssist, where they encounter Diamondback and Paladin. Issue #4 wraps things up that night. 
5) The day after that, they return to the Institute, ready for their post-HOM adventures, a mere three days after HOM day. 

Wouldn't this be consistent with the post-HOM plans that Marvel is cooking up for the Hellions? 

If so, A4 8-11 can be pushed back to some time before NX 14, allowing a certain mystery man to make the scene again, and NX and NX:H can tie in to HOM, as originally thought. The question remains, though, whether this scenario will be consistent with post-HOM plans for the mystery man. Will that person re-emerge for the first time in the next A4 story arc and will that arc be firmly placed post-HOM? If so, then yeah, there's still a problem.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 10:29 pm    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
Will that person re-emerge for the first time in the next A4 story arc and will that arc be firmly placed post-HOM? If so, then yeah, there's still a problem.  
<<<

I don't think that will be the problem, as I remember reading in an interview somewhere that HoM won't affect New Avengers until after issue 12. Seeing as how the Ronin/corruption in SHIELD story spans issues 11-13, the only trouble I see is if the end of issue 13 runs directly into HoM. If that's the case, hopefully Bendis will put a nice gap between pages of issue 13 so that other things can take place pre-HoM.(which seems likely, he's already re-written Secret War 5 to accomodate things) Cross your fingers. 

Without explicitly saying it, it is who you think it is. 
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 11:47 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
That bit's fine. The problem is the REST of the series, which is set in a post-HOUSE OF M summer holiday that isn't going to happen any more. 
<<<

I really must pay closer attention to the posts. Unfortunately, some of them have way too many words in them. If I wanted to read a whole bunch of words, I would be reading real books, not comic books. 


Big Bad wrote: 
>>>
Like Paul O said, that's not the problem bit (although you're still wrong - the Hellions, including Julian specifically, are involved in the fight with the Blob). The problem is the "present day" bits of Hellions #1 onward. 
<<<

How was I wrong? I stated that the Blob was defeated by the students, which included the Hellions. I just did not mention them by name. 

I still believe that the entire Hellions Limited Series can occur before the House of M begins. 

The rest of the Hellions week goes thusly: 

SUNDAY: The Hellions are arrested at the airport. They are released and fly to Julians home in California. Julian gets into argument with parents, and they leave. (Hellions #1) 

MONDAY: The Kingmaker arrives at Julians home and offers to make their wishes come true. (Hellions #1) 

MONDAY: The Hellions agree to have their wishes granted by the Kingmaker. (Hellions #2) 

TUESDAY: The Hellions wishes are granted. (Hellions #2) 

WEDNESDAY: The Hellions repay the Kingmaker by stopping Diamonback and Paladin from stealing a weapon. (Hellions #3) 

WEDNESDAY: The adventure ends (Hellions #4) 

THURSDAY: The Hellions return to the mansion (Hellions #4) 

Meanwhile, the Astonishing X-Men arrive in New York City on Saturday to meet with the Avengers. In House of M #1, we see only part of their discussion. It seems to me that they may actually have spent several days discussing and debating Wanda's fate. It seems only natural that they would not want to make any hasty decisions, considering how important their final decision would be. At one point, Dr. Strange admits that he can do nothing for Wanda, but is still researching, and Captain America tells the group to let "the doctor do what he has to do." Doctor Strange's research alone may have taken up one or two more days of time. 

The only evidence I can offer that a number of days may have passed is Professor Xavier's tie. When the X-Men arrive on page 9, he appears to be wearing a solid-colored tie. On page 17, Xavier appears to be wearing a striped tie, suggesting that he changed his clothes after spending at least one night at the Avengers home. (Of course, it could just be the reflection of the light that makes the tie looked striped.) 

Anyway, in my Marvel Universe, the X-Men and Avengers arrive in Genosha on Friday, the day after the Hellions limited series ends. 

That's all. I hope I have helped to ease our collective stress in some way. 

Mark 

Currently watching Chicago's very own Svengoolie.

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 08:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Anyway, in my Marvel Universe, the X-Men and Avengers arrive in Genosha on Friday, the day after the Hellions limited series ends.  
<<<

Thanks, Hotcharokey. Your scenario of days of deliberation is possible, if not probable. Let's keep it in mind in case post-HOM events don't allow a few days for the Hellions to have their adventure in California. Speaking of which, do you suppose Kingmaker's granting of wishes was real or was he messing with the Hellions' minds, giving them a taste of what life would be like in actuality if they did his bidding?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 08:47 am    
By jephyork
Director

Paul: 

I'm under the impression that NXM #20 follows DIRECTLY from the end of HoM. Like, seconds after it ends. The current writers of NXM have gone on-record in interviews stating that although they originally wrote Hellions and the Yearbook to occur post-HoM, there's literally no room now due to the new writers' plans. I'm inclined to take them at their word. 

Therefore, I think we should be trying to fit both books pre-HoM, *until NXM #20 comes out and proves us wrong*. It's probably a better way to go than placing them provisionally post-HoM, and hoping there'll be room. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 10:00 am    
By Somebody

Jeph - sorta, but not quite. I think it's HoM: The Day After that follows directly from the end of HoM and NXMAX #20 follows on from THAT. 

Doesn't change the macro-details but, y'know

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 11:45 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Observation: even if the meeting that the X-Men fly off to in NEW X-MEN #13-14 can't be made to fit neatly with the one in NEW AVENGERS #8, there's nothing to stop us saying that it's a third one, in order to generate a gap in which NEW X-MEN: HELLIONS can occur...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 04:44 pm    
By Col_Fury

I still think we can fit New X-Men 14 with New Avengers 8, maybe not neatly, but I still think it can work. So the jet is seen in New York, maybe they're picking up some other X-Men, maybe they're picking up Luke Cage etc, or maybe they're just passing through town on their way to Conneticut. So how's this: 

New X-Men 14 & 15, Cyclops says they're meeting the Avengers, they're seen passing through New York, New Mutants fight the Blob. 
New Avengers 8-10, the X-Men arrive in Conneticut, stuff happen with the Sentry 
Hellions 1, the Hellions get on a plane to Claifornia 
New Avengers 11-13, corruption in SHIELD is solved by *someone* reassuming control 
Hellions 2-4, things wrap up in a timely fasion to suit chronology needs 
New X-Men Yearbook, the Hellions are back to appear in this 
HoM 
HoM: the day after 
New X-Men 20 

I still haven't decided that the 'wishes' seen in Hellions actually happened,(thanks Paul B) but depending on how long it takes New Avengers 8-10, & 11-13 to happen, we can either asssume they did or didn't to stretch out or compress time as we need it. This way, everything is still pre-HoM. 

Thoughts?
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 08:30 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
speaking of which, do you suppose Kingmaker's granting of wishes was real or was he messing with the Hellions' minds, giving them a taste of what life would be like in actuality if they did his bidding? 
<<<

I believe that the granting of wishes was real. First, the Kingmaker's ability to grant wishes does not appear to be something magical or a trick of the mind. He stated that he has a network of individuals who help him make the wishes come true and that everyone in the network had previously been granted a wish by the Kingmaker. In other words, the cost of having a wish granted are to become a member of the network and to help the Kingmaker grant the wishes of others whenever called upon. 

Second, the granting of wishes seems to occur in real (comic) time. For example, one day the Kingmaker is talking to the kids. Then, "the next day," according to the comic's narration, the wishes are granted. If the writer had intended for the Kingmaker to have only been playing with the Hellions' minds, why would he have included the reference to time? As far as I am concerned, including the words "the next day" indicates that the granting of the wishes was real and occurred on the next day. 

BTW, my scenario of the days in the Hellions Limited Series is based upon the comic's narration. Every time that the narration said "the next day," I made it a new day.

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 06:22 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yes, I'd agree with that reading. Despite the pseudo-mystical overtones of his summoning (which, ultimately, just involved phoning the guy up), the Kingmaker has not been presented as a superhuman. He simply enlists suitably-minded individuals into a network where he does favours for them, in exchange for them agreeing to perform unspecified future favours for him.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 08:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'm under the impression that NXM #20 follows DIRECTLY from the end of HoM. Like, seconds after it ends. The current writers of NXM have gone on-record in interviews stating that although they originally wrote Hellions and the Yearbook to occur post-HoM, there's literally no room now due to the new writers' plans. I'm inclined to take them at their word.  
<<<

Does someone have a citation of what's been said at Marvel about moving the Hellions story to a point before House of M? Does "House of M: The Day After" really occur "the day after" or is the phrase meant to refer to a general aftermath? Do we know that the Hellions appear in that comic? 

Just a reminder, too, that connecting NX 14 and NX:H 1 to A4 8 is a convenient theory (a way to tie together two similar published events) but that nothing in those stories makes the connection explicit. In fact, I'd argue that a series of in-story temporal references in several books makes it difficult to place NX 14/NX:H 1 isochronally with A4 8. If it's impossible to link NX 14/NX:H 1 with HOM as it was supposedly originally intended, we could link it to an unpublished (or not yet published) third meeting of the two teams. Having just re-read HOM 1, I'm more inclined to do this than to stretch the Avengers/X-Men meeting in HOM 1 over several days.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 04:32 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't think connecting NX #14 to A4 #8 *involves* stretching the X-Men and Avengers' HoM #1 meeting over a number of days. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 09:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I don't think connecting NX #14 to A4 #8 *involves* stretching the X-Men and Avengers' HoM #1 meeting over a number of days. 
<<<

It doesn't. Linking NX 14 and HOM 1 to one another involves stretching the HOM 1 meeting to accommodate the passage of time in NX:H, as suggested earlier in this thread. 

However, linking NX 14 and A4 8 DOES involve cramming A4 8-13 together so that those issues finish before the part of the NX:H story line that involves Nick Fury being head of SHIELD again, which he clearly is NOT in A4 right now. (The mystery man is revealed!  )
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 06:14 am    
By jephyork
Director

It might not involve "cramming" A4 #8-13, so much as it might involve separating NX #14 and NX:H #1-4. Last year at Prizegiving, the students stuck around for almost a week before the school was closed for the summer -- could a similar situation be true this year? 

This is me speaking without having read either comic in question, but -- does NX:H *have* to immediately follow NX #14-15? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 11:44 pm 
By Col_Fury

There's the problem. In New X-Men: Hellions 1, page 1 has the caption: "2 days ago..." Later on page 1, Emma Frost mentions that the X-Men won't be at prize-giving 'tomorrow.' Then on page 4, there's the caption "Today..." This gives us a 3 day time frame. 

Day 1: Emma tells Julian the X-Men won't be at prize-giving. 
Day 2: Prize-giving. 
Day 3: The Hellions are at the airport. 

The morning of Day 4 would be when the Kingmaker shows up, which ends issue 1. Issue 2 opens with Diamondback & Paladin casing Genetassist on page 1, then page 2 cuts back to the Kingmaker talking to the Hellions, presumably continuing the conversation started in issue 1. Diamondback & Paladin are working for SHIELD, hired by Nick Fury. That conversation had to take place before page 1 of issue 2, probably on 'day 3' when the Hellions were at the airport. At the very earliest Nick would have had to hire Diamondback & Paladin the day he returns to SHIELD, whenever that ends up happening. Unless... 

This might be another Punisher 13-18 scenario. Nick Fury hires DB & P to secure a deadly weapon to prove that he can still get the job done, 'telling' DB & P that they're working for SHIELD when they're actually only working for him. Nick's ouster from SHIELD isn't exactly public knowledge, Captain America didn't even know about it! I doubt DB & P did. This would allow for Hellions to happen in it's time frame, & not stretch the opening of HoM over several days. This is all just a rationalization, so I doubt it's going to hold any water. Oh well.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 12:25 am    
By Col_Fury

I stumbled accross this at Newsarama: 

Quote: 
>>>
New Avengers #15, the second part of artist Frank Chos two-issue Spider-Woman story arc will deal with the public outing of the New Avengers, which doesnt go well, primarily due to the presence of Spider-Man (never a public favorite) and former criminal Luke Cage  not the most press friendly Avengers ever, Bendis said. 

After the Cho arc, Steve McNiven will join the title until issue #21 on a story arc connected to House of M and featuring a new villain that spins out of that storyline. New Avengers then gets a new regular artist with issue #22, though the artist was not named.  
<<<

So what we're looking at is the 'Sentry' story in New Avengers 7-10, the 'Corruption in SHIELD' story in 11-13, the 'Outing of the New Avengers' in 14-15, then the 'Aftermath of HoM' in 16-21, which would put HoM between issues 15 & 16. Thankfully this opens up the time frame, but dang it!, we have to wait until what, March or April of 2006 to see how it lines up? Hopefully some of these issues will ship twice a month in lieu of Annuals...
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Thread 30

Posted: 21 Aug 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: Early chronology of Beast and Dark Beast
By wolframbane

Question regarding the early Chronology for the Dark Beast. 

Up until Legion travelled back in time 20 years and created the Age of Apocalyse timeline, Beast and Dark Beast essentially were the same individual until the divergence which created the alternate timeline. After that, the Beast and Dark Beast followed two different destinies, each one within their own reality. 

Now would the early chronology of Beast also count for the chronology of Dark Beast? There would be a bit of difficulty in determining exactly at what point their lives diverged, based possibly on how old Henry McCoy was when Legion traveled back in time. 

Beast is almost 30 in X-Men v2 #20 (5.93), so would be 'around thirty' during the time of LegionQuest (1995), when Legion went back in time 20 years and created AoA. So perhaps the first 10 years of McCoy's life may be shared by both Beast and Dark Beast. Or at least, the early childhood. 

His early childhood is covered within: 
Uncanny X-Men 49/2 
Uncanny Origins 6 
X-Men Unlimited 10 (fb) 
Uncanny X-Men 49/2 
Uncanny X-Men 50/2 

His time in Dunfee Elementary School would be of borderline possibility for Dark Beast: 
X-Men Unlimited 10 (fb) 
Uncanny Origins 6 

And when he is attending high school (Uncanny X-Men 15 (fb) and later) is definitely unlikely for Dark Beast. 

At some point after this, Dark Beast's AoA chronology begins: 
Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines 
X-Chronicles 2/4 
Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines 
X-Man -1 
Blink 1 
X-Men Alpha (first appearance)

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 01:48 am    
By wolframbane

And a simiar situation would arise with the early history of Vance Astrovik within his early timeline before any divergence. Within the mainstream universe he is Marvel Boy/Justice, within the Guardians of the Galaxy timeline he has become Vance Astro/Major Victory. There are likely other characters within this quandry as well.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 02:08 am    
By SeanCurtin

Are you asking if the alternate timeline characters' chronologies should represent appearances of their Earth-616 counterparts? If so, the answer would definitely be "no": an appearance of Earth-616's Hank McCoy doesn't also qualify as an appearance for every near-identical timeline's version of Hank McCoy. Vance Astro technically didn't exist until the divergence point that created his timeline and split his chronology off from Vance Astrovik's. As for the Dark Beast, there's no way to know exactly at what point his life stopped mirroring Earth-616 Beast's, but UX 15-FB is as close an estimate as I would make based on available evidence. 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 08:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

I think he's saying that we should list Hank McCoy's chronology from age 10-back in the Dark Beast's chronology as well. 

I tend to disagree -- at best, we should put a "splits from 'Beast'" note at the beginning of the Dark Beast's chronology instead. 

Isn't he going by "Doc McCoy" now? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 09:43 am    
By Somebody

Well, the XMU Beast vs Beast (10, wasn't it?) issue seems to make it clear that both lived the same early life - i.e., the effective divergence is sometime in his teens.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 09:58 am    
By wolframbane

Beast and Dark Beast do not originally come from two similar but separate timelines. The Earth-616 and AoA timelines prior to the divergence were one and the same. It was not until Legion's actions that they split and became distinctly two timelines, like a cell splitting in two. 

With that in regards, could the first appearance of Dark Beast actually be considered UX 49/2?

Last edited by wolframbane on 23 Aug 2005 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 10:44 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
With that in regards, could the first appearance of Dark Beast actually be considered UX 1? 
<<<

Using the can of worms argument: If that were the case, would it not also be true of every character, in every divergent timeline? 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 06:26 pm    
By stavesacre79

wolframbane wrote: 
With that in regards, could the first appearance of Dark Beast actually be considered UX 1? 

I'm going to have to say no. While Dark Beast may have had the same past as Beast, he's not the same character. And the character appearing in UX1 was not Dark Beast, it was Beast. I would tend to agree with Jeph that maybe a "continued from Beast" link would be appropriate, but I think the distinguishment between the two characters is important. 

(Not to mention the fact that by UX1, Beast and Dark Beast were experience totally separate realities.) 

Side Note: how do you do that nifty thing that inserts a quote from another member of the board?

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 06:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You just hit the "quote" button at the top of the Reply field, paste the text you want posted, then hit the quote button again to close the quote. 

Good call, too -- the Dark Beast never experienced the events of UX #1. Technically the "earliest chronological appearance" of the Dark Beast would be the very first time we see the young Hank McCoy in a flashback to before the 616/AoA divergence. Which I believe would be either UX #15 or UX #49/2, depending on the exact time of the divergence. 

Still, for MCP purposes I think we should probably continue listing X-Men Alpha as the true first appearance of the Dark Beast. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Aug 2005 12:57 am    
By wolframbane

My apologies. I actually misquoted when I asked earlier if UX 1 would be considered the first appearance of the Dark Beast. What I properly meant to ask (which I also editted above) was: 

For the first appearance (in print) of the Dark Beast, would it be UX 49/2 (depicted his birth)?

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Posted: 23 Aug 2005 06:13 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

No, because they're seperate characters. The Dark Beast is a divergent version of the Beast, and so while they share early parts of their history in common, the Dark Beast's chronology logically begins with his first appearance after the point of divergence, ie the point at which he comes into existence as a separate character. The core Marvel Universe is the primary timeline and other, divergent realities are not equally valid (though clearly they have some degree of validity). So it isn't a question of a single history splitting in two. It's one valid history with a defective version breaking off along the way.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 31

Posted: 19 Aug 2005 02:34 pm    Post subject: Dizzie, Mandrill, Nekra
By scottandrewhutchins

Dizzie first appeared in Marvel Super Special #1. 

Why is Mandrill's name listed as Hensley Fargus? He is named Jerome Beechman when he tells his sotry in DD114, which is also the name given in the Marvel Universe Master Edition. Did somebody change it? Steve Gerber says he didn't actually create the Mandrill, but he was the first writer to use the character in a story. I mention this because Gerber did write of a Sir Hensley Fargus Craecraft-Rugby in Crazy Magazine #6, as a man who unsuccessfully tries to levitate. 

Why is there no entry for Nekra? She first appeared in Shanna the She-Devil #5 and was later integral to the Vision and scarlet Witch 12-part series in the '80s.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 02:36 pm    
By Ant-Man

Nekra can be found under 
SINCLAIR, NEKRA/"ADRIENNE HATROS"
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 04:22 pm    
By Enda80

Nekra......well, that causes confusion. After all, Elektra is not listed as "Natchios, Elektra". Doctor Strange is not listed as "Strange, Dr. Stephen" even though he did in fact achieve a doctorate. Baron Mordo and Baron Strucker you find under the B's, but the Baron Zemos you find under the Z's.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 04:53 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
Doctor Strange is not listed as "Strange, Dr. Stephen" even though he did in fact achieve a doctorate. 


We've discussed this before. Why do you find this confusing? Dr. Strange is his codename. Did Marvel list him under the S's or the D's in the Official Handbook? 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 10:42 pm    
By Enda80

The reverse of that logic occurs with Nekra. She get listed under the S section as "Sinclair, Nekra" even though the Official Handbook listed her under the N section.

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Posted: 20 Aug 2005 01:04 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I don't have a problem with your contention over Nekra. Nekra *was* originally listed on the N page, until someone posted on the old message board, asking, "Why isn't Nekra on the S page?" Since no one defended it, I moved it to the S page, only to now be asked to defend *why* it's on S. *shrug* I don't care. 

But I do care about the contention that you keep raising with Dr. Strange, after it's already been addressed. 

And it's really not *that* difficult to find any of these characters. There's a link to our search engine at the top of the home page. You can search on "Strange", "Nekra", "Zemo", and "Mordo" to find all these characters, if they're not where you first thought they'd be. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 20 Aug 2005 04:27 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The homepage has that missing-children /amber alert java app that takes a long time (on my older machine) to load ... I tend to avoid the homepage when possible. 

Maybe posting a link to the search engine on EVERY page would be an idea? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 09:02 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Although it's true that his codename has been established as "Doctor Strange", in the same way that Doctor Doom has been established as a codename, it's nonetheless true that it's also his real name, and so it's not unreasonable that people might look from him under "Strange, Dr Stephen." While I wouldn't suggest moving his entry there, inserting a link onto the S page might be a good idea.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 09:12 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The homepage has that missing-children /amber alert java app that takes a long time (on my older machine) to load ... I tend to avoid the homepage when possible. 
<<<

I just wanted to add that I have the same problem, (on my old computer)...I just recently got a new computer, which makes the homepage load much faster, but still, there is still an occasional small pause when accessing the homepage.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 23 Aug 2005 12:08 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

FWIW... 

"I never gave Nekra any other name. I didn't want her to have another 
name. One of the things the '80s brought to Marvel (and comics in 
general) was the compulsion to explain (and therefore render utterly 
pedestrian) every thing about every character."--Steve Gerber

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Thread 32

Posted: 05 Jun 2005 09:34 pm    Post subject: Villains in Foes #5
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Can anyone provide a complete list of the villains seen in Fantastic Four: Foes #5? Several of them only look vaguely familiar to me.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 08:17 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

For some reason, my local shop didn't get these in last Wednesday so I haven't actually seen the issue yet. The ones shown in the prison cells in the previews I've seen are Mad Thinker, Puppet Master, Mole Man, Sphinx, Dragon Man, Klaw, and Exalt. 

I should be able to pick the issue up this Wednesday, and I'll pass along whoever else I see.

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 12:18 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Exalt? From the Ruined? What an odd choice. At least he's an FF villain, but from the bottom of the barrel.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 02:19 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

What I find more odd is that he's used by himself, without the rest of The Ruined. At least the whole "team" was used in FFF 1, so Exalt's appearance is not entirely without precedent here. 

Like I said, though, I'll get the book on Wednesday and give you the full run through.

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Posted: 06 Jun 2005 09:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, so I have the following so far: 

Sphinx, Klaw, Mole Man, Puppet Master, Dragon Man, Mad Thinker, Diablo, Red Ghost, Hydro-Man, Grey Gargoyle, Wizard, Occulus, Exalt, Hydro-Man, Molecule Man. 

I think the others were in Foes #1 -- maybe Iconoclast? Dreadface? Stem? Martyr? B'Aar? I just not familiar with these bottom feeders.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:01 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Okay, got the book. (It's still pretty lousy.) Here's the villains I'm seeing... 

Page 5 -- Exalt, Klaw, Dragon Man, Sphinx, Mole Man, Puppet Master, Mad Thinker 

Page 6 -- Hydro-Man, Grey Gargoyle, Sphinx, Wizard (On the toilet?!? Man, Kirkman is getting worse than David Anthony Kraft!) 

Page 7 -- Klaw, Molecule Man, and I think that's supposed to be Trapster. Obviously, a bit hard to tell when he's out of costume. I'm guessing that's supposed to be a paste-gun on the table. 

Page 8 -- Diablo 

Page 13 -- Red Ghost 

Page 14 -- the Super Apes (Igor, Peator, and Mikhlo) 

Page 21 -- Wizard, Dragon Man, Plantman (who's evidently no longer the plant being that he became in Thunderbolts), Occulus, Exalt, Stem, a Skrull (Super-Skrull seems likely since he was captured earlier in the series, but he's drawn somewhat differently here. Then again, he's a shape-shifter!) and... this bearded, monocled guy again. He showed up in #1 and I couldn't really determine who he was suppsoed to be there, either. He looks most like Nathaniel Richards, who's hair was incorrectly colored brownish red once before in Tales of the Marvel Universe. But he's not really a villain and there's no mention of Reed in a quandry about locking up his father. (Not to mention that this is after Nathaniel's semi-heroic rescue of the FF over in Knights 4 last month.) The other possiblity I can think of is The Monocle, who hasn't been seen since the late '70s IIRC. The problems here are that A) he wears his hair and beard considerably differently, B) his eyepiece is a simple monocle (hence, his name) not an electronic doo-dad, C) the eyepiece is over the wrong eye anyway, and D) he was partial to nice suits with cravats, not skin-tight coveralls. It's a bit of a stretch any way you look at it, I think.

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 10:31 am    
By SKleefeld

FYI, I went ahead and e-mailed Tom Brevoort asking who the heck this guy is supposed to be.

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Posted: 09 Jun 2005 01:46 pm    
By BobMM

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
...Plantman (who's evidently no longer the plant being that he became in Thunderbolts)... 
<<<

Sam had reverted to his human form by the end of the Avengers/Thunderbolts LS.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 10:20 am    
By BobMM

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Okay, got the book. (It's still pretty lousy.) Here's the villains I'm seeing... 

Page 21 -- Wizard, Dragon Man, Plantman (who's evidently no longer the plant being that he became in Thunderbolts), Occulus, Exalt, Stem, a Skrull (Super-Skrull seems likely since he was captured earlier in the series, but he's drawn somewhat differently here. Then again, he's a shape-shifter!) and... this bearded, monocled guy again. 
<<< 


I finally read this story in trade. That's Diablo on page 21, not Plantman. The headgear is a little exaggerated, but the silhouette exactly matches Diablo's outfit as shown earlier in the issue.

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 10:06 am    
By jannepie

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
and... this bearded, monocled guy again. He showed up in #1 and I couldn't really determine who he was suppsoed to be there, either. 
<<<

I haven't seen the issue but first person that comes to mind is Crossfire, who has an electronic... doo-dad. Although I'm not sure if he's ever fought the FF. Can you show us a picture?

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Thread 33

Posted: 24 Aug 2005 12:45 pm    Post subject: Jakuna Singh, Agent of SHIELD
By scottandrewhutchins

He appears in (at least) SSD 4 and SSD 5. He is not currently listed.

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 05:05 pm    
By SeanCurtin

According to the Master List, he also appears in SSD 2, DD 111-FB, and SVT 9/2. 

-Sean

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 05:44 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We can't accept appearance information from the Master List. 


watching: 360

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 10:14 pm    
By Arthur
Director

SSD 2 and the DD 111-FB (follows SSD 5) are confirmed.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 12:31 am    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
We can't accept appearance information from the Master List. 
<<<

Believe me, I understand - it's a good starting point for independent verification, but that's about it. 

-Sean

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Thread 34

Posted: 25 Aug 2005 11:05 am    Post subject: Doctor Bong/Man-Thing
By scottandrewhutchins

Doctor Bong's real name isn't given on the chronology. He reveals himself to be Lester Verde in HTD 17. 

M-T 16, GSM-T 4, and M-T 17-22 are one contiguous story and GSS-M 5 could not interrupt them unless somehow Manny got back to the swamp for a significant period when he was in a van going to Atlanta. I propose GSS-M 5 should go before issue 16. It could also go after issue 22, but that seems less likely. It doesn't make sense to keep it where it is. 

Also, the earlist chronological appearances of Ted Sallis are in flashbacks in AIF 16/DD 113 and M-T 15, all of which detail Sallis's work on Operation Sulfur, the project that preceded the Super Soldier project that turned him into Man-Thing. M-T 15 states the date of these flashbacks as 1967. The AIF 16/DD 113 flashbacks are presumably set before then, since neither indicates his having turned his back on the project, which is indicated in M-T 15. These would all go before GSM-T 5, which is set just before the events in Savage Tales 1.

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Thread 35

Posted: 25 Aug 2005 05:45 pm    Post subject: Oblivion
By Ant-Man

Oblivion appears in issues 1, 2, 3 and 4 of the first Iceman limited series prior to his appearances in Quasar 

He's only seen in cameo in issues 1 and 2 

I wasn't sure if it was the same character, because he looks slightly different in the prologue of issue #1 (page 3), but when he is fully seen in issues 3 and 4 he has his 'traditional' hooded appearance.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 36

Posted: 24 Aug 2005 10:16 pm    Post subject: Dracula in FF
By ADMINISTRATOR

According the Master List, Dracula makes a behind-the-scenes appearance in FF 30. Does anyone know the nature of the BTS appearance? 

Johnny makes a joke in the story, saying that "this place [Diablo's castle] would scare Dracula!" Not sure if the Appendix considers that to be a behind-the-scenes appearance  , or if he actually played some part in the story that was revealed at a later date. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 12:38 am    
By SeanCurtin

I doubt that Dracula has any relevance to that issue; the Appendix/Master List likes to list any reference to a character as "BTS" regardless of whether or not the character is affecting or affected by the events of that issue in any way. Dracula probably would have been staked and 'dead' in his castle at that point in time, so there's little possibility of him having been physically present. 

Speaking of FF, Diablo, and Dracula: Is there actually a flashback in FF3 36 in which Dracula appears, BTS or otherwise? 

-Sean

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 01:18 am    
By wolframbane

I just reviewed the issue, and other than Johnny's reference to Dracula, the vampire hiself does not make and appearance. 

Within Dracula's bio at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/draculav.htm there was a reference to Diablo encountering Dracula in the past in FF v3 #36. 

Quote: 
According to Fantastic Four III#36, Diablo claims to have encountered and learned the secrets of eternal life from Dracula after being driven from Spain. 
That's interesting, seeing how Diablo was born in 9th Century Spain, while Dracula didn't get his powers until the 15th Century. 
I guess Diablo had to wait 6 centuries to learn how to extend his lifespan? 
Plus, what did Dracula know about extending human life beyond vamping them? 
Dracula's not pictured in that issue, but rather Diablo taunts the girl from the Order of Deacons. I'm thus listing the info in the comments, rather than the history. If and when it occurred is anyone's guess.  
Unquote. 

It should be noted that FF 30 is the first reference to Dracula in themodern Marvel Universe.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 08:06 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
I doubt that Dracula has any relevance to that issue; the Appendix/Master List likes to list any reference to a character as "BTS" regardless of whether or not the character is affecting or affected by the events of that issue in any way. 
<<<

You're kidding. Even a joke? And it's not even a joking reference to the real character. Johnny's referring to what he thinks is a fictional character. If that's right, that makes me a little nervous about the Master List. I mean, a mistake is one thing, but to intentionally list that as an appearance, even behind the scenes... 

Again, I'm hoping that some other story reveals Dracula's link to this story. Or are there other instances where a character receives an appearance in the Master List, when they're only mentioned in a throwaway line, like Johnny's here? 


watching: jonny quest

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 11:53 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

My best guess is that FF 30 occurs in Translyvania; I seem to recall that Diablo's castle was Dracula's at one time, so maybe their assumption is that Dracula must still be hanging around somewhere...? 

Whatever their reasoning, it's a very tenuous appearance listing at best.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 12:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Okay, that's possible. Thanks. It's not what we would consider a bts appearance, but I can at least understand the reasoning. Can anyone confirm that Diablo used the castle where Dracula lay at rest? 


watching: live from

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 03:13 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.comicboards.com/fantasticfour/view.php?rpl=040310012849&q=Dracula 

http://www.comicboards.com/fantasticfour/attachments/040310012849/FF36Dracula.jpg 

I thought that was Dracula, but I guess it was Mephisto (who also has fangs, though usually he has hockey hair). 

http://www.comicboards.com/fantasticfour/view.php?rpl=040310012849&q=Dracula 

Diablo's FF encyclopedia entry notes that he may have encountered Dracula. 

As Robert Wicks put it: 

Diablo - When Dracula ruled all of Transylvania in the 1460's, for some reason he ignored Diablo. Diablo retained his rule over a small corner of Transylvania up until the late 1800's. Why? Did Dracula take Diablo's lands and leave him alive, only for Diablo to return at some later date after Dracula decided to stop playing an active role in the country's politics? I'm assuming the two must have had some sort of confrontation, but if they did, I don't think it has ever been revealed. 


http://www.geocities.com/jjnevins/wicksapp.html

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 10:48 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
You're kidding. Even a joke? And it's not even a joking reference to the real character. Johnny's referring to what he thinks is a fictional character. If that's right, that makes me a little nervous about the Master List. I mean, a mistake is one thing, but to intentionally list that as an appearance, even behind the scenes... 
<<<

I think that they have it listed just to show that that was the first time that Dracula was referenced in a (modern) Marvel comic. Why they felt the need to use the "BTS" notation for the sort of detail that ought to be limited to annotations is beyond me. 

-Sean

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Thread 37

Posted: 25 Aug 2005 04:08 am    Post subject: Wolverine #31 clues!
By Col_Fury

This issue wraps up the story, has Fury back in charge of SHIELD, & drops some references that make my head spin; some help, others not so much. 

First, issue 30 opens with a 'therapy session' with Kitty, Beast, Iceman, Rachel Grey, & Emma Frost, discussing the 'death' of Northstar from '2 months ago,' mentioning that Wolverine's been calling & hanging up. The next page more-or-less picks up from last issue, so I don't think that it's been 2 months between #29 & #30. Wolverine & Elektra are getting ready for their plan formulated last issue, & Wolverine's taking the shower he mentioned last issue. I'm thinking the thereapy session is 2 months from 'now.' 

Fury mentions that Wolverine's been off the radar for 'close to 11 weeks,' apparently looking for the kid, who he finds buried, ending the story. I'd like to put the therapy session from last issue during this 11 weeks. Meaning: Wolverine kills Gorgon, 8 weeks later we see the therapy session from #30,(Wolverine's been making calls during this time, in between killing '1,800 scumbags') & 3 weeks later he finds the kid's grave. During this 'almost' 11 weeks we shouldn't have any other Wolverine appearances, it doesn't seem like he'd be doing much of anything else. 

Hydra is splintered again, so the current ASM issues aren't a problem. 

The new Helicarrier(V2.0) is 16 weeks from completion, since the old one was destroyed in Wolverine #27 & it's been worked on for the last 11 weeks at this point. So we need about 27 weeks(or 6 to 7 months) from Wolverine #27 where the Helicarrier makes no appearances. Is this even possible? Fury's talking to the Helicarrier in Avengers 502 & we see it in New Avengers 3, a 6 month gap. Wolverine: EotS & AoS(20-31) occurs after Disassembled,(see New T-Bolts 1-6) but before New Avengers.(see New Avengers 8) The 'present day' of Secret War is after EotS & AoS,(see the Pulse 9) & yet there's the Helicarrier in the 'present day' of Secret War #1! Also, Captain America(current run) takes place during the 6 month gap, & there's the Helicarrier in issue 8! The labeling 'Helicarrier V2.0' makes it sound like there was only the one, but it looks like there's going to have to be some smaller back-ups laying around...
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 07:20 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So we need about 27 weeks(or 6 to 7 months) from Wolverine #27 where the Helicarrier makes no appearances. Is this even possible?  
<<<

Heck, no. 


Quote: 
>>>
The labeling 'Helicarrier V2.0' makes it sound like there was only the one, but it looks like there's going to have to be some smaller back-ups laying around... 
<<<

Yeah, let's go with that. The helicarrier we see in other titles after W3 27 (A4 6, A4 8-FB, HERC 4, M/TU3 6, possibly FOES 4 & 6) may be version 1.5 or something. The helicarrier that crashed in W3 27 may have been the prime helicarrier, the central base of operations, and V2.0 was supposed to replace that function? 

Come to think of it, the helicarrier that crashed in W3 27 (presumably v1.0) couldn't have been the very first SHIELD helicarrier, could it?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 10:40 am    
By Somebody

Not even nearly. 

Plus it's a big plot point in Livewires that there have been umpteen (destroyed) Helicarriers, one of which is "resurrected" by the bad guys.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 11:35 am    
By Col_Fury

I also remember the Red Skull stealing the Helicarrier at one point, in an issue of X-Men.(the '99 Annual?) Excellent, so the Helicarrier is no longer a problem! 
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 05:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Wait. You want to take a scene from W3 #30, and insert it somewhere into W3 #31 ... why? 

Because you don't think it's plausible that 2 months have passed between Northstar's death and W3 #30? 

No. Just ... no. Leave the scene where it is. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 02:33 am    
By Col_Fury

Taking the "Northstar's been dead for 2 months" as is, we're looking at a 6 month, 1 week window for the entirety of this Wolverine arc. Parentheses note which issue the time reference was made, not necessarily when the action happened. 

Wolverine is defeated by Gorgon.(W3 20) 
1 week later, Kitty's looking for him.(W3 20) 
1 month later, Wolverine shows up in South Africa.(W3 20) 
2 days from South Africa to fight w/ FF.(W3 21): These 2 days includes Wolverine waking up, fighting Elektra, & escaping. 
5 days from FF fight to Elektra defeated by Gorgon.(W3 23): These 5 days includes Wolverine's attack on Stark International, Wolverine fighting the New Invaders, Wolverine's attack on Baron Strucker in New T-Bolts, & Wolverine fighting Daredevil. 
3 days from Elektra's defeat to her stealing Northstar's corpse(W3 26): These 3 days includes Cap guarding the President, Wolverine killing Northstar, & Wolverine retrieved by SHIELD.-thankfully the references in New Mutants 13 matches this- 
Wolverine waking up during the attack on the Helicarrier & it's crash is the same day as Elektra stealing Northstar's corpse.(W3 27) 
7 & 1/2 week gap, Wolverine looking for Northstar(W3 28, W3 30) 
2 days to fight Northstar once Wolverine finds him, he rides on a Sentinel, kills a bunch of ninjas, meets up w/ Elektra who's been faking her zombieness, they decide to take down Hydra, the 'therapy session' mentions it's been 2 months since Northstar died,(W3 30) Wolverine & Elektra defeat the Gorgon. 
11 weeks later, Wolverine finds the kids grave.(W3 31) 

All in all, 25 weeks. During the 7 & 1/2 week gap, Wolverine does not go back to the X-Mansion, Kitty mentions that he's been calling & hanging up, so he probably doens't make any appearances elsewhere during this time. Also, during the 'close to 11 week' gap no one knows where he is, X-Men or SHIELD.(well, Fury could be lying. He lied about Northstar...) 

So how does this 6 months, 1 week line up with the 6 months between Disassembled & New Avengers? Let's say Ichiro's kid was kidnapped on Oct 1, & 'weeks later' means 2 weeks, putting Wolverine's defeat on Oct 15 at the earliest. He's then free to make appearances elsewhere the 2nd week of April. Avengers Disassembled had to be in Oct, because Sue mentions it on Halloween, so let's say it was the 4th week of Oct, which puts the Raft breakout in New Avengers in the 4th week of April. This gives Wolverine 'at most' 2 weeks to get back to the X-Mansion & be sent to the Savage Land to look for Sauron to meet the New Avengers in NA 5, not to mention any other books that still need placing.(X-Men 171-174, etc) 

What about the 'present day' of Secret War? Pulse 9 places it after Wolverine 20-31.(Wolverine mentions 'No more SHIELD!' No more Hydra with the hands!) New Avengers 5 places it before New Avengers 1.(Wolverine mentions 'the Scorcher is living straight & narrow since that stuff went down with Fury & our little Secret War.') It can't happen during the 'close to 11 week' gap, because Fury is still in charge at the end of that gap. It has to happen after it, which only gives us a 2 week window at the most.(given the 'let's says') It seems as though the 'present day' of Secret War happens in a short amount of time, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Unless of course, either Secret War 5 screws things up, or when Fury returns a mention is made of how long he's been gone...
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

Last edited by Col_Fury on 26 Aug 2005 03:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 06:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

You crazy kids and your slavish, literal devotion to temporal references. 

Wolverine appears in approximately 900 books set between "Disassembled" and "New Avengers". And they're not all going to fit into a "two-week gap in April"... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 01:09 pm    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
Wolverine appears in approximately 900 books set between "Disassembled" and "New Avengers". And they're not all going to fit into a "two-week gap in April"... 
<<<

Of course they're not! Which is why these '2 month' & '11 week' gaps are driving me crazy... But if we could rationalize one of those gaps away, say, by calling the 'therapy session' a, umm... Flash Forward,(instead of calling the rest of issue 30 & most of 31 a Flash Back) the time frame opens & we have 2 & 1/2 months for Wolverine to appear in other books.(much more concieveable than 2 weeks)
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

Last edited by Col_Fury on 26 Aug 2005 02:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 01:18 pm    
By meta

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I also remember the Red Skull stealing the Helicarrier at one point, in an issue of X-Men.(the '99 Annual?) Excellent, so the Helicarrier is no longer a problem!  
<<<


Another S.H.I.E.L.D. hellicarrier crashed during the Onslaught saga if memory serves as well.

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 03:04 pm    
By Col_Fury

All right, we can forget anything about Flash Backs or whatnot. I was re-reading(again) Wolverine 28-31 to see if that could work, but apparently not. In #28, a SHIELD agent mentions that "Wolverine's been public enemy #1 for 3 months...", which would put W3 28 7 & 1/2 weeks after W3 27, exactly where the reference in the therapy session puts it. Dang.(I edited the 'list' above to reflect this reference) It seems that for whatever reason, Millar was determined to fill that 6 month Avengers gap with this Wolverine story...
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 03:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You'd have a lot fewer headaches if you stopped taking every single reference literally. 

Here's my philosophy on temporal references ... take it or leave it, but it's where I'm coming from: 

Temporal references should be consistent if they're coming from (a) the same book, or (b) the same writer. That is, if Wolverine #8 says that it occurs three days after #7, and #9 occurs the day after #8 ... then I'd reasonably expect four days to have passed. And if #10 claims to occur one week after #7 ... then I have no problem using the clues given in #7-9 to assume three days in-between #9-10. 

Also, if two books are written by the same person (Uncanny and Excalibur, for example), and he makes temporal references between the two ... for example, EXCAL #4 claiming to occur "nine days after" UX #450, and UX #451 claiming to occur the day after EXCAL #4 ... then I'd have no problem using those clues to assume that it's been ten days between UX #450-451. 

Because those are *intentional* references. Planned references. References that don't try to connect to OTHER books written by OTHER writers who AREN'T trying to hold to the timeline the first writer is establishing. 

What I'm saying is -- within the context of the Wolverine book, yes, #20-31 occured over six months from October to April. But if that doesn't happen to match up to other references from other books -- so be it. Let it fall by the wayside. 

For example -- W3 #20-25 occured *after* UX #455-459 (since the X-Men come home in #460 to discover that Wolverine's gone rogue). UX #455 occurs *after* X #165, since that's the issue when X-23 comes to live at the school. And X #165 occurs on Christmas. 

So we've got an "October" issue occuring after a "Christmas" issue. But you know what? Because the seasonal references were penned by TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE -- I don't expect them to hold up. They don't NEED to. Not in the same way that one story arc, written by one writer, NEEDS to be INTERNALLY consistent. 

So -- yes, according to Wolverine #20-31, it's been six months. And we shouldn't try to shove that story into a two-day gap between issues of another title. But if the largest gap we CAN find is three-and-a-half months long -- so be it. Put it in there, and don't sweat the discrepancy. 

If you try to work with EVERY temporal reference in EVERY book ALL the time ... you'll have a Mighty Marvel Heart Attack. Even Paul B. understands that. 

It's better, in my opinion, to keep books' references *internally* consistent, or try to make all the references given by the same writer work together. But if a reference happens to work with a reference given by another writer in another title -- it's serendipity. The exception to the rule, rather than "the way things *should* be". 

The day we start deciding that certain scenes "should" be labelled as flash-forwards, despite NO evidence that they were written or intended as such ... just because their elapsed time doesn't happen to match the elapsed time given in a *different* book written by a *different* person ... that's the day we've gone too far. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 04:46 pm    
By Col_Fury

Good point & well stated. Thanks Jeph! 
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 05:02 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Here's my philosophy on temporal references ... take it or leave it, but it's where I'm coming from: 
<<<

:yepp:


watching: silverado

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 06:11 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I agree with Jeph, particularly when it comes to "X weeks" and "X months" references. Because of the sliding timeline, the logic of Marvel time breaks down anyway when you start to think in larger units of time. Sometimes these references are intended to function as continuity markers and, where appropriate, should be interpreted accordingly. In this case, it's just artistic licence, and simply an arbitrary period of time which is meant to sound right for the story. There's no point trying to take this sort of thing literally, as long as the sequence is basically reasonable (ie, no trying to shove "six month" storylines into a gap which another series clearly states is three days).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 38

Posted: 25 Aug 2005 10:59 am    Post subject: Canonicity of appearances within non-Marvel media
By wolframbane

Does this chronology cover events that canonically occured to a character but was covered within a non-Marvel or non-comic medium? To clarify my point here are a few examples: 

For Dracula or Frankenstein, they are characters from classic literature. Would the events of the novels be considered? 

Doc Savage is a character from the Pulp era, would his pulp stories be considered? 

Access is a character jointly owned by DC and Marvel. His appearances within Marvel or Marvel/DC crossovers would be counted, but what about his appearances that exclusively occur within the DC Universe (Green Lantern #87)?

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 11:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

No, the DRACULA and FRANKENSTEIN novels (as such) are not canon, any more than the original GODZILLA films. Marvel is simply importing the characters into its universe. Their previous histories only hold true to the extent that Marvel reiterates them in print, either by expository dialogue or outright adaptation.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 03:02 pm    
By Enda80

What about Sax Rohmer's Fu Manchu novels? Have the specific events of any of them been referenced anywhere? I know of no adaptations of a specific Fu Manchu novel or story by Rohmer.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 06:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'd like to think that Access' GL appearance is canon -- it, at least, appeared within the medium of comic books. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 06:06 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Access is a special case because he's co-owned with another universe, though. So his appearances in both universes are canonical, at least until such time as the DC and Marvel versions go in irreconcilably different directions. Which is highly unlikely ever to happen, given the nature of the character - he serves no function other than to facilitate inter-company crossovers.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 06:29 pm    
By wolframbane

Regarding Access: 
'He serves no function other than to facilitate inter-company crossovers.' 

Thanks Paul. That is the most simple and succinct and accurate description for a character's purpose I had ever heard. Its funny because its true.

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Thread 39

Posted: 26 Aug 2005 07:28 pm    Post subject: X-Men I#1; some of those soldiers named in a Marvel Vision
By Enda80

Marvel Vision#17 had an Daily Bugle article which reprinted some of Ned Leeds' old stories. One of them was about Magneto's attack from X-Men I#1. 

Some soldiers were named in the story that may not have been named elsewhere. 

Corporal Alex McGinnty. 
Rear Admiral Amadeus Sikorsky.

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Thread 40

Posted: 20 Aug 2005 10:54 pm    Post subject: Daredevil #76-81 and Spec Spidey v2 #21
By jephyork
Director

Okay, now that Bendis' run on DD is wrapping up and he's bringing the Kingpin back, can we start to reconcile DD's place in the MU timeline with the rest of the books -- particularly Spec Spidey v2 #21, which has bothered me for a while because it featured an out-of-jail Kingpin? 

Where does that SSM2 issue fall? I presume it's after EXCAL3 #11-14, as Angel mentions that "Xavier sends his regards from Genosha" ... but I have no idea where that lines it up with the rest of the MU, other than "post-Disassembled and shorlty before HoM", which isn't too helpful. 

Can all of the DD run through #81 be squeezed in before SSM2 #21? Can SSM2 #21-27 be pushed forward as far as possible to allow for all the DD issues to occur? 

And has Bendis made any crossover references between DD and other books he writes (Pulse, New Avengers, Secret War) that might help -- or hinder -- lining the events in DD2 up with other books? The last reference I remember was between DD2 #57 and Pulse #1, but that was quite a while ago. 

As someone who hasn't been following too closely -- how's it all fitting? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 12:39 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
As someone who hasn't been following too closely -- how's it all fitting? 
<<<


Rather messy, if I do say so myself. I'm waiting on Issue #76 to come out so I can get a sense of what this upcoming story is going to be like for chronology purposes. Issues #70-75 were supposedly set in the "1 year gap" but there was a framing sequence set in the "present day" about which I'm unsure exactly when it's supposed to take place. Is it before "DD2 56-60" or after? I haven't a clue, for the moment... 

As for DD references in other books, it's all been pretty vague...when Daredevil showed up in "Enemy of the State" there was no real mention of his secret identity status quo in there. One potential problem, (which I guess we'll just have to ignore) is how often Matt Murdock's house has been wrecked or outright destroyed. It was destroyed in Secret War, it was ransacked in Enemy of the State...in the pages of his own book, it's been attacked by Mr. Hyde and Jigsaw... 

Really, I'm just playing the whole "wait and see" game right now...but yes, since Kindpin is coming back in this storyline, it looks like we're being given a chance to fit in Spec. Spiderman #21...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 09:41 am    
By Somebody

Is there any particular reason why Spec 21 needs to be between Spec 20 and 22 (i.e., is the poker game referenced in the following issues, etc)?

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 10:38 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The particular reason is that the number 21 comes between 20 and 22. We generally don't need reasons to put issues of a serial title in their published order. Rather, we need an extreme reason to shuffle them out of order. For instance, if issue 20 ended in a clliffhanger that was continued in issue 22, while issue 21 seemed to be a filler issue, that would require lifting 21 out from between 20 and 22. But removing an issue of Spider-Man to satisfy a minor plot element that helps line it up with an issue of Daredevil? Probably not. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 06:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This is not a problem on the draft calendar. All the DD2 issues (so far) are lining up before PPTSS2 21. I have that infamous poker game with the big guy occurring in November of what would be last year in the MU. The DD2 issues (through DD2 70) are two months earlier. 

Determining chronological placement by comic publication date these days is a risky business... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 07:35 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Determining chronological placement by comic publication date these days is a risky business...  
<<<

It always was. While there are many folks here (and I'm one of them) who believe that, if there are two potential reading orders, the better one is the one that lines up publication order, I don't think anyone here is slavishly devoted to the concept that Avengers 170 must occur close in time to Thor 220, just because they both came out the same month. If the stories read better to slide titles out of alignment, in relation to each other, then so be it. There are times in the Silver Age when Thor and Avengers books are out of sync by more than a year, and no one objects. 

That's a far cry from yanking one issue of a sequential title out of its natural order and placing it somewhere else. Offhand, the only example I can think of in the modern age of chronological analysis (post-Official Index) is ASM2 36. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 03:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hi, Paul. I love your method too. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 06:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Unfortunately, the Kingpin's absence has also been a plot point in other books - for example, MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN has run stories which depend on the idea that the Owl is trying to move in and fill the gap. Simply shoving the current DAREDEVIL arc backwards doesn't solve the problem, because these other stories then get dragged back along with it. 

Unless, that is, DD2 76ff ends with the Kingpin at large, but not resuming control of his empire. (And to be fair, that's what DD2 76 suggests that the Kingpin is trying to achieve.) There might also be a reasonable period of time in which the Kingpin is (yet again) trying to rebuild his empire, but making much slower progress than before, and in which other crimelords such as the Owl can reasonably be described as trying to fill the gap left by the collapse of his previous empire.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 09:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

"Wait and see", eh? 

To set the wheels in motion, though ... you're right, M/KS-M #13-17 have shown the Owl as a major underworld player. Can these issues -- which take place after the formation of the New Avengers -- be made to fit before the "Sins Past" sequel in SSM2 #22-25? 

I guess what I'm asking is -- how far forward can we push "Sins Remembered" until we hit a wall? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 03:08 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

"I guess what I'm asking is -- how far forward can we push "Sins Remembered" until we hit a wall? " 

Sins Remembered unavoidably takes place during the gap in ASM 515 - there's simply nowhere else for it to go, and Peter's visit to Paris is referenced later in the same ASM arc, before he and MJ move into the Avengers Tower. Thus, Sins Remembered precedes the current MKSM arc.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Further appearances for Godzilla
By wolframbane

I have found some additional appearances for Godzilla. It should be noted that only Godzilla's appearances within the GODZILLA series itself, published with Toho's approval, are considered canon appearances of the monster. In his subsequent appearances in Iron Man and Thing, he has been further mutated by Dr. Demonicus, so he no longer resembles his previous appearance, and he is never referred to as 'Godzilla' (so no copyright infringement with Toho). He also did not use his trademark radioactive flame breath. For more info, check out: 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godzilla.htm 

Also note that in Transformers #3 (a non-Marvel canon book, but at the time it was written as being considered canon), in which Spider-Man joins forces with the Autobots, there is a one-panel appearance of Nick Fury who wonders if the reports of giant robots have anything to do with giant lizards (because of SHIELD's involvement w/ the Godzilla Squad). 

Here is my updated Godzilla list: 
GZILL 1-FB 
GZILL 2-FB 
GZILL 1 
GZILL 2 
GZILL 3 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 5 
GZILL 6 
GZILL 7 
GZILL 8 
GZILL 9 
GZILL 10 
GZILL 11 
GZILL 12 
GZILL 13 
GZILL 14 
GZILL 15 
GZILL 16 
GZILL 17 
GZILL 18 
GZILL 19 
GZILL 20 
GZILL 21 
GZILL 22 
GZILL 23 
GZILL 24 
IM 193 
IM 194 
IM 196 
TG 31

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Thread 41

Posted: 27 Aug 2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Overlooked early chronological appearance for Space Phantom
By wolframbane

In FF 28 [7.64], the Fantastic Four were discussing the various threats that the X-Men had faced, including Magneto, Blob, the Brotherhood and the Space Phantom. As yet, there is no story of the X-Men battling the Space Phantom at this early point in their history, so this may have been behind the scenes. It would have occurred sometime after the Space Phantom's first appearance in A 2[11.63] and when the FF made the reference in FF 28 [7.64].

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 12:23 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Hunh. Interesting. Thanks, wolframbane...I hadn't noticed that. 

However...untold stories aren't "overlooked appearances." 


watching: gargantua

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 02:43 pm    
By Enda80

Olshevsky declared that an error on the part of the newspaper writer.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2005 06:16 am  
By Nathan P. Mahney

It's most likely that Stan simply got the Space Phantom mixed up with the Vanisher, as he's the about only villain the X-Men had fought to that point who isn't listed. It's quite astonishing to me that no one has written a story based around this one, though.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Thread 42

Posted: 28 Aug 2005 01:29 pm    Post subject: Prester John note; the Marvel Fanfare.......
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/presterjohn.htm 

Second, there really isn't any proof that the young German almost-priest-turned-crusader named Johann is the younger self of the time-traveling Prester John who convinced Dane Whitman to stay in the 12th Century. Instead, there is evidence that they probably aren't the same person. In DEFENDERS #11, Prince John's attempt to use the Evil Eye against his brother Richard and the Defenders was thwarted when someone appeared out of thin air. Upon seeing this person, Prince John exclaimed, "I recognize the man! He served Richard from time to time! It is - - Prester John!" This statement seems to establish that the older Prester John must have served King Richard of England prior to 1191 AD...at a time when Johann must still have been in Germany studying for the priesthood. Of course, since this is the MU, it's possible that Johann from 1191 did grow up to be the Prester John from FF #54 and that that Prester John traveled into the past not once but twice (first to serve King Richard prior to 1191 and later to recover the Evil Eye in 1191)...but that's rather messy, don't you think? A better explanation is that Dane Whitman just jumped to a wrong conclusion about Johann. If the wanderer known as Prester John did serve King Richard from time to time prior to 1191, then maybe it was knowledge of this knight which inspired some Crusaders to give an almost-priest named Johann the nickname of "Prester John."

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Posted: 28 Aug 2005 02:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Prester John note; the Marvel Fanfare....... 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/presterjohn.htm 

Second,  
<<<

I'm not going to read the entire appendix entry to figure out what you're trying to tell us... 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
there really isn't any proof that the young German almost-priest-turned-crusader named Johann is the younger self of the time-traveling Prester John who convinced Dane Whitman to stay in the 12th Century. Instead, there is evidence that they probably aren't the same person. In DEFENDERS #11, Prince John's attempt to use the Evil Eye against his brother Richard and the Defenders was thwarted when someone appeared out of thin air. Upon seeing this person, Prince John exclaimed, "I recognize the man! He served Richard from time to time! It is - - Prester John!" This statement seems to establish that the older Prester John must have served King Richard of England prior to 1191 AD...at a time when Johann must still have been in Germany studying for the priesthood. Of course, since this is the MU, it's possible that Johann from 1191 did grow up to be the Prester John from FF #54 and that that Prester John traveled into the past not once but twice (first to serve King Richard prior to 1191 and later to recover the Evil Eye in 1191)...but that's rather messy, don't you think? A better explanation is that Dane Whitman just jumped to a wrong conclusion about Johann. If the wanderer known as Prester John did serve King Richard from time to time prior to 1191, then maybe it was knowledge of this knight which inspired some Crusaders to give an almost-priest named Johann the nickname of "Prester John." 
<<<

Again, no clue what you're trying to tell us, or how this impacts the chronologies, but let's just go with what's in the books. It's not our place to figure out *why* characters do things. 


watching: dinocroc

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Posted: 28 Aug 2005 05:15 pm    
By Enda80

PRESTER JOHN 
T@ 17-FB 
T@ 17 
{FF 54} 
M/TIO 12 
DEF 11 
M/FAN 54 
A:CS 1 
A:CS 2 
A:CS 3 

This chronlogy has oddities. First of all, the M/FAN 54 appearance was of a young man named Johann who was a native temporal inhabitant of the 1100's. Dane Whitman, in the body of Eobar Garrington, encounters him as Johann first goes on the Crusades. Defenders#11 featured a time-travelling modern era Prester John travelling to the 1100's. Even if Prester John and this Johann were the same man, Defenders#11 would come after Marvel Fanfare; in fact M/FAN 54 would precede the Thor Annual 17 fb. 

However, that Johann, while apparently intended as Prester John, may not have in fact been Prester John. 

In Defenders#11, the Defenders and Prestor John time-travelled to the 1100's where they met Dane Whitman in the body of Eobar Garrington, his ancestor* and Prince John (Robin Hood bad guy). Prince John saw the time-travelling Prester John and recognized him as an associate of Richard the Lion-Hearted-which indicates that Prestor John served with Richard the Lion-Hearted before Defenders#11. 

Well, let us look at Eobar Garrington's chronology 

BLACK KNIGHT III/EOBAR GARRINGTON 
DEF 11 
M/SH3 4/6-FB 
A 264-FB 
M/CP 73/3-FB 
M/FAN 52 
M/FAN 53 
M/FAN 54 
BK:E 

You have M/Fan 54 (taking place in 1191) placed after Defenders#11. However, as noted, Defenders#11 indicates that Prester John was already a full-grown adult before the main action of the story in that issue. Therefore, Prestor John was already a well-known crusader before M/Fan 54. Therefore, Prestor John was too old to have been the neophyte Johann in Marvel Fanfare#54. 

http://www.unfluffybunny.com/cripp12/24/th_prestorback.jpg note that Prestor John's Master Edition entry makes no mention of the Marvel Fanfare issue, and lists his real name as Prestor John. 


*This beat Trancers by about 10 years!

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Thread 43

Posted: 30 Aug 2005 09:03 am    Post subject: Arsenal II
By thedart

I was going through some old Marc Spector Moon Knights and noticed a missing records for Arsenal II. The MCP has him listed for 12-14, but he first appeared in the series at issue 11. Here is the updated listing: 

ARSENAL II 
--MK3 11 
MK3 12 
MK3 13 
MK3 14

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Thread 44

Posted: 26 Aug 2005 11:11 am    Post subject: 1986 Annuals and surrounding issues...
By metaldragon

This affects a couple of chronologies and it's a bit of a complicated knot... 

It all started with Beast's chronology and the placement of WCA@ 1. I noticed that you have placed his appearance there between XF 12 and MEPHV. 2 (after Mutant Massacre crossover). This is not possible because you have WCA@ 1 occuring in Thor's chronology between pages of T 373 which comes right before the Mutant Massacre crossover. This is correct because Blockbuster breaks Thor's arm during the Massacre (it dosen't heal until sometime after T 379, sorry, don't read Thor normally, not sure which issue) and his arm is shown unbroken in WCA@ 1. Therefore, Beast's appearance in WCA@ 1 must come before the Mutant Massacre as well. For Beast that would be before XF 8. Now things get complicated... 

Where does WCA@ 1 fit in that spot? There are a number of issues in there that need to be adressed. Let's have a look... You have listed them in this order in Beast's chronology: 

XF 7 
XF@ 1 
IM@ 8 
ASM 282 
M/FAN 32 
XF 8 

Cross checking with Iron Man's chronology, you have it placed WCA@ 1 before IM@ 8. Now, here's the snag... In WCA@ 1 Wasp phones Beast at the X-Factor building and says, "I know you're back with your old friends in the X-Factor group--". Wait a minute! How would she know this?!? As far as the everyone knew, including Iron Man and the rest of the Avengers, a guy calling himself Beast was part of a group called the X-terminators who attacked the X-Factor building on the news in XF 7! Iron Man certainly didn't know anything about the X-Factor/X-terminators connection and didn't even recognise the Beast when he met him in IM@ 8 (Beast had become de-furred) until Beast took him aside and explained everything during the fight in that issue. Iron Man then must have told Wasp how to get ahold of Beast when she needed to phone him in WCA@ 1, which would logicly place it after IM@ 8. 

So the change to Iron Man's chronology would be from: 

A@15 
WCA@ 1 
IM@ 8 

to: 

IM@ 8 
A@ 15 (leads directly into...) 
WCA@ 1 

Now, the next thing I noticed was that you had XF@ 1 before IM@ 8 and ASM 282. The problem there is that Marvel Girl is shown wearing her head covering mask from XF 1-7 in IM@ 8 and ASM 282 but she wears a new mask that only covers her face in XF@ 1 which appears in XF 9 onwards. (She dosen't wear her green "X-terminators" costume in XF 8, only her blue X-Factor mutant hunter uniform throughout.) This would make XF@ 1 the first appearance of the new face mask (which she wears from that point on) so it should go after ASM 282. This change would affect all of X-Factor's (Angel, Beast, Cyclops, Iceman, and Marvel Girl's) chronologies. 

So for example, Beast's chronology should now look like: 

XF 7 
IM@ 8 
WCA@ 1 
ASM 282 
M/FAN 32 
XF@ 1 
XF 8 

I went and cross-referenced with a bunch of the other characters' chronologies who appear in those issues to see if there are any conflicts... which led me to discover a few odd things...! 

The one that was waaaay out was Captain America's chronology appearance in M/FAN 31-32 (Angel, Beast, Iceman, and Spider-Man appear in 32)! You have them placed between FF 306 and CA 332. Those issues take place a bunch of issues after he appears in the Mephisto vs. mini series. X-Factor appears in MEPHV. 2 which takes place after Angel looses his wings in the Mutant Massacre crossover! So M/FAN 32 HAS to take place before the Mutant Massacre because Angel still has his wings which should now make Captain America's chronology look something like this: 

A@ 15 
WCA@ 1 
M/FAN 31 
M/FAN 32 
CA 321 

Now, I don't know Captain America's stories at all but that is the only place that Angel, Beast, Iceman, and Spider-Man could appear there alongside Captain America if all other chronology evidence lines up as I have listed. 

Which leads me to Spider-Man's chronology! I double checked where M/FAN 32 is listed for him and discovered a bizarre type-o! Someone wrote: 

ASM 282 
M/FAN 42 

Now, since X-Factor all appear in ASM 282 and Iceman gives Spider-Man a business card on how to contact them at the end of that issue... Spider-Man's chronology should actually read: 

ASM 282 
M/FAN 32 

I don't know if Spider-Man appears in M/FAN 42 or not but I assume this was a slip of the finger! Someone will need to check this out and correct.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 04:47 pm    
By Arthur
Director

Metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
I don't know if Spider-Man appears in M/FAN 42 or not  
<<<


confirmed...he does.

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 08:38 am    
By metaldragon

Ah! In that case, it should then read: 

ASM 282 
M/FAN 32 
M/FAN 42 

Or M/FAN 42 fits in a later spot somewhere in his chronology.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 09:19 am    
By jephyork
Director

M/FAN #32 is currently listed *later* in Spidey's chronology than #42 ... it's after ASM #289 and WOSM #30, and before PPTSS #127. 

Considering that Marvel Fanfare was a showcase for shelved filler work ... I have no problem with the idea that issues can take place out of order. But does this later placement work for X-Factor's appearance? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 10:10 am    
By metaldragon

Badly. See my analysis of the placement of M/FAN 31-32 for Captain America. It's has to fit before XF 8 because Angel's wings are horribly maimed during the Mutant Massacre (XF 8-11) and in M/FAN 32 he is shown fighting the Claw's minions alongside Beast, Iceman, Captain America, Human Torch, and Spider-Man. Oh, and the "fabulous" Frogman (II? It's Eugene, son of the original? Frogman) 

So it has to go just after ASM 292 when Spider-Man first encounters X-Factor in their X-terminator costumes and dosen't recognise them. They fight, Spider-Man passes out (he's sick), then when he wakes up, Iceman gives him a business card and tells him to contact them if he ever needs their help. In M/FAN 32 Frogman's father asks Spider-Man to help him find Eugene and Spider-Man recruits Angel, Beast, Iceman, and the Human Torch. 

This might affect the Human Torch's chronology too now that I think of it. I see M/FAN 32 has been put between FF 298 and the MEPHV. mini-series in Torch's chronology. It's possible it may have to go a bit earlier to fit with X-Factor's appearance in the MEPHV. 2. Is the Mutant Massacre mentioned in FF? I know Franklin Richards appears in the Power Pack issue of the Massacre crossover. When does that take place in FF's continuity? M/FAN 32 would have to go sometime just before that.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 01:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Wait, wait. 

Okay, M/FAN #32 needs to come after ASM #282 -- which it does -- and before the Mutant Massacre. 

But, unless I'm being dense, you haven't shown me that it definitively DOES take place after the Massacre in its current place in Spidey's chronology... 

I might very well be being dense. Can you re-state? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 02:36 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
Wait, wait. 

Okay, M/FAN #32 needs to come after ASM #282 -- which it does -- *and before the Mutant Massacre*. 

But, unless I'm being dense, you haven't shown me that it definitively1 DOES take place *after the Massacre* in its current place in Spidey's chronology... 

I might very well be being dense. Can you re-state? 

See the bolded bits, and accept your density 

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 04:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

This is about to get interesting, cause I don't think you understand what Jeph is saying... 


watching: animals behaving badly

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 08:52 pm    
By shandrakor

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Wait, wait. 

Okay, M/FAN #32 needs to come after ASM #282 -- which it does -- and before the Mutant Massacre. 

But, unless I'm being dense, *you haven't shown me* that it definitively DOES take place after the Massacre in its current place in Spidey's chronology... 

I might very well be being dense. Can you re-state? 
<<<

...is the way I read it...

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Posted: 28 Aug 2005 08:18 am    
By metaldragon

It's hard to say where the Mutant Massacre might fall in Spider-Man's timeline. ASM 282 is the Nov 1986 issue and the Mutant Massacre happened over the Oct-Dec 1986 and Jan 1987 issues of X-Factor (XF 8-11), X-Men (210-213), New Mutants (46-47), Thor (373-374), Power Pack (PP 27), and Daredevil (DD 238) so I wouldn't put M/FAN 32 too much later after ASM 282. (We know definitively that ASM 282 takes place after XF 7 because he mentions that he saw the tv broadcast from that issue. ASM 282 has to take place before the Mutant Massacre because Angel is still hale, whole, and hearty and Marvel Girl is still wearing her head covering mask.) Since members of X-Factor are shown interacting with a whole range of heroes just before the Mutant Massacre, during the Massacre, and just after it in the MEPHV. mini-series you would have to cross reference all these heroes appearances with Spider-Man to see how this placement affects his chronology. 

Check where Franklin Richards' appearance in PP 27 (Dec 1986) appears in the FF's continuity and that might help narrow down the placement of M/FAN 32 before the Mutant Massacre for the Human Torch at least. For Captain America, M/FAN 31-32 should probably happen sometime just after the WCA@ 1. I haven't read his stories so someone who collects Cap would have to hammer out how well that works. (You have A @ 15 and WCA@ 1 taking place during T 373 for Thor just pannels before he enters the Morlock tunnels in that issue so that tells you how close the timeline is with the Massacre! Again, its hard to tell how much time happens between pannels after he returns from Asgard to Earth and before he goes into the Morlock tunnels.) 

The safest and easiest spot to fit M/FAN 32 is right after ASM 282 because that is where it occurs for Angel, Beast, and Iceman. You could argue for maybe one or two issues of Spider-Man falling between there (because he's such a busy guy), but I wouldn't go more than that because it's a narrow time factor for those stories to occur between XF 7 and 8 from X-Factor's perspective. In XF 7 the X-terminators "join" Glowworm and Bulk in their "fight" against X-Factor. In XF 8 we then see Cyclops and Marvel Girl cleaning the tunnels of Glowworm and Bulk's radiation, so I don't think X-Factor would leave that hazard to sit there for too long. Conclusion, M/FAN 32 fits best right after ASM 282 in Spider-Man's chronology.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 28 Aug 2005 10:34 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Cross checking with Iron Man's chronology, you have it placed WCA@ 1 before IM@ 8. Now, here's the snag... In WCA@ 1 Wasp phones Beast at the X-Factor building and says, "I know you're back with your old friends in the X-Factor group--". Wait a minute! How would she know this?!? As far as the everyone knew, including Iron Man and the rest of the Avengers, a guy calling himself Beast was part of a group called the X-terminators who attacked the X-Factor building on the news in XF 7! Iron Man certainly didn't know anything about the X-Factor/X-terminators connection and didn't even recognise the Beast when he met him in IM@ 8 (Beast had become de-furred) until Beast took him aside and explained everything during the fight in that issue. Iron Man then must have told Wasp how to get ahold of Beast when she needed to phone him in WCA@ 1, which would logicly place it after IM@ 8. 

So the change to Iron Man's chronology would be from: 

A@15 
WCA@ 1 
IM@ 8 

to: 

IM@ 8 
A@ 15 (leads directly into...) 
WCA@ 1 
<<< 


I'm not impressed with your reasoning here. So, Iron Man didn't recognize Beast in IM@ 8. It does not follow that Wasp can't know that Beast is with X-Factor, much less that Iron Man told Wasp how to contact Beast. I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong. I'm saying we don't change listings based on conclusions reached by faulty logic. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 28 Aug 2005 11:27 pm    
By metaldragon

"Ahh!" says Jay, pushing up his sleeves and wiggling his fingers to loosen them up like a concert pianist before he plays the first note... Brace yourselves for further indepth analyses! (If you can stand it...!  ) 


Let's start with WCA@ 1. Both teams of Avengers are on the run from Agent Gyrich and his government troops who was helped by an Avenger who betrayed them. They go through the list of previous/potential Avengers and contact all available ones. (See: Wasp phone call to Beast.) 

Quicksilver reveals himself as the traitor who (as we later discover was under the influence of Maximus the Mad) is mad for revenge against them and has been helping Gyrich and leads teams of the Life-Decoy Model version of the Zodiac Cartel against them. 

He is eventually stopped from destroying them all by the Vision, who shows Quicksilver a hologram of Wanda & Vision's twin baby boys. Quicksilver runs off in shame and it all ends with a laugh and thrown objects as Hawkeye chooses Thor to be on his team for the softball game that was interupted at the beginning of A@ 15. I assume the resolution of this story happens in one of the Avengers/West Coast Avengers issues...? Last we saw, Gyrich was still trying to arrest them all! 


Now let's examine IM@ 8: Iron Man delivers a "alpha-particle generator" to Project Pegasus and they security scan him and confirm his identity from matching the Avengers files. While there, he spots a child under heavy sedation and asks Guardman if they aren't stretching the meaning of "national security" there. Supervillians, OK, but a child...? 

Willie Evans' distraught father enters the lobby of the X-Factor building and threatens to take their receptionist hostage at gunpoint in exchange for his son. Hodge talks him down and takes him to meet X-Factor. From the description of the kidnappers uniforms, Beast recognises Project Pegasus. 

In their X-terminator costumes, they attempt to break in and rescue Willie but Guardsman discovers them before they can. Iron Man hears the alarm, arrives, and thinks, "Hunh? I don't believe it!! Michael is fighting the old X-Men!" Marvel Girl and Cyclops knock Iron Man out of the sky and Beast rolls him off a short cliff, away from the fight. Iron Man says, "O.K., buddy, if you think you're going to put Iron Man out of action--" Beast interrupts, "Wait--! It's not at all as you surmise! Look at me! It's Hank McCoy-- the Beast!" Iron Man replies, "WHAT?!" 

Cut to Willie waking up. 

Cut back as Iron Man and Beast rejoin the fight as Guardsman and more Project Pegasus security troops are about to attack the X-terminators. Iron Man joins their cause and persuades Guardsman to help them rescue Willie from Project Pegasus. Iron Man says, "One of the intruders is an old friend of mine. He's changed quite a bit since I last saw him, but I trust the man implicitly." Guardsman asks who they are. Iron Man replies "To tell you the truth Michael, I'm not quite sure. I guess you could call them freedom fighters dedicated to protecting their own." He goes on further to explain that the Beast told him Willie had been kidnapped and his father was searching for him for "months". 

They go to rescue Willie but the kid uses his reality warping powers to knock them out as he escapes. Iron Man contacts Mr. Fantastic (hey, Franklin Richards appears here! Another continuity point for M/FAN 32!) and SHIELD for their help. 

Later Cyclops says, "Well, I hope Iron Man understands we're going to see this thing through. X-Factor may not have any official permission to help in the search like he does but we are not going to abandon that boy." Iron Man overhears and replies, "No one's asking you to, Cyclops! Anyone ever tell you guys that you have on heckuva chip on your collective shoulder?" 

Willie ends up killing himself facing the dark side of his powers and at his funeral Tony Stark introduces himself to Jean Grey and passes on his condolences. He recognised her from the Avengers files. (The Avengers helped recover her cocoon back in A 263 and Captain America updated the file Beast made on her [after Dark Phoenix saga] when she awoke in FF 286.) 


If IM@ 8 takes place right after WCA@ 1 like you have it listed in his chronology without any issues where Gyrich gets off the Avengers' collective backs in between, Project Pegasus could have ended Iron Man's involvement pretty quickly! The security scan at the beginning of the issue would have pinged him as being renegade in the Avenger's files and Gyrich would have been there like a shot with Freedom Force and SHIELD in tow, I'm sure! Forget Iron Man actually asking SHIELD for help...! 

Like I mentioned previously, there is further strong evidence that the Avengers files on the "old" X-Men hadn't been updated in a while (except for Marvel Girl when they awoke her in A 263/FF 286) because Iron Man didn't recognise the de-furred Beast as being the same person as the furry one he had worked alongside for so long. 

OK: So Iron Man is the tech guy. He's the one doing most of the computer stuff since Pym and Vision were no longer on the team? He would probably have been the first person to know about the change in the Beast and formation of X-Factor/X-terminators because he would have entered such information himself or checked on it if someone else did (like Captaim America for example...?  ). Putting together the bits Beast told him and what Cyclops let slip, he was able to tell Wasp she could contact Beast at the X-Factor building in AWC@ 1. Or, depending how much time happens between IM@ 8 and A@15, maybe she read Iron Man's update on Beast's file. 

Now, unless there is evidence in the Avengers, West Coast Avengers, or Iron Man series to completely contradict this story order, this way makes for a much more logical placement. Sadly, I'm only an X-Factor freak so I don't have access to those issues. Can anyone else check if I'm way off in this placement? Please let us know!
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 28 Aug 2005 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 28 Aug 2005 11:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
OK: So Iron Man is the tech guy. He's the one doing most of the computer stuff since Pym and Vision were no longer on the team? He would probably have been the first person to know about the change in the Beast and formation of X-Factor/X-terminators because he would have entered such information himself or checked on it if someone else did (like Captaim America for example...?  ). Putting together the bits Beast told him and what Cyclops let slip, he was able to tell Wasp she could contact Beast at the X-Factor building in AWC@ 1. Or, depending how much time happens between IM@ 8 and A@15, maybe she read Iron Man's update on Beast's file. 
<<<

You haven't addressed the problem. It's still there, from your previous post. 


Quote: 
>>>
He's the one doing most of the computer stuff since Pym and Vision were no longer on the team? 
<<<

What book was this shown in? 


Quote: 
>>>
He would probably have been the first person to know about the change in the Beast and formation of X-Factor/X-terminators because he would have entered such information himself or checked on it if someone else did  
<<<

What book was this shown in? 


Quote: 
>>>
Putting together the bits Beast told him and what Cyclops let slip, he was able to tell Wasp she could contact Beast at the X-Factor building in AWC@ 1. 
<<<

What book was this shown in? 


Quote: 
>>>
Or, depending how much time happens between IM@ 8 and A@15, maybe she read Iron Man's update on Beast's file 
<<<

What book was this shown in? 

All of that is speculation and fan theory. We don't know any of these things. We only know that Iron Man was surprised, and Wasp wasn't. You'll be better off if you can state your case for why the listings are wrong, without delving into what you think would've/should've/could've happened behind the scenes. 


watching: katrina

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 12:48 am    
By metaldragon

OK... I offered those as questions because I didn't know. I was proposing a change in order from the perspective of the issues that contained X-Factor based on Beast's appearances. I was actually asking for more information because from what I knew, this was an elegant solution to the way these issues fit together. This entire excercise was in order to generate discussion about the order of these issues as a whole. With all the other evidence I've pointed out these bunch of issues have to fall between XF 7 and 8 (placed roughly in the order they are listed in Beast's chronology): 

XF@ 1 
IM@ 8 
ASM 282 
M/FAN 32 
WCA@ 1 

Now... since some of those issue were way off in time placement, contrasted against chronologies of other characters appearing in them, and Marvel Girl's mask, I wondered if IM@ 8 and WCA@ 1 weren't in the wrong places in Iron Man's continuity too. 

Excuse me for saying this, but has ANYONE read X-Factor or analysed how any of those issues related to X-Factor, compared to the other heroes who appeared in those issues? Hey, maybe I'm throwing baby out with the bathwater in the case of IM@ 8 and WCA@ 1 but frankly the lack of analysis of where all of those issues I listed fit in Marvel's overall continuity were badly, if at all, researched. It seemed whoever made the analysis of Captain America's continuity and stuck M/FAN 31-32 way after the Mephisto vs. mini sure didn't do any research on where Angel, Beast, and Iceman belonged chronologicly speaking! Ditto for Spider-Man and possibly Human Torch. 

I'm sorry, but your response here strikes me as more of smackdown from on high than actually generating discussion on why my placement won't work. Sofar, no one has offered proof that they DON'T belong the way I've placed them! The way WCA@ 8 is currently placed in Beast and Thor's chronologies, Beast appears there ALONGSIDE Thor chronologicly AFTER the Mutant Massacre ALONGSIDE Thor, who appears there ALONGSIDE Beast, BEFORE the Mutant Massacre ALONGSIDE Beast!!! On top of that, Beast's appearance in WCA@ 1 takes place AFTER his appearance in IM@ 8 in his chronology!!! Excuse me if I challange the Iron Man chronology placement of those two annuals! You can't have it both ways! SOMEONE here screwed up and I'm just pointing it out! Don't shoot the messenger! 

If these two annuals are a case of "well, it could go either way" my surmises based on the information make more sense to have IM@ 8 before WCA@ 1. If not, provide proof, don't give me "What book was this shown in?" responses to my surmises. 

Hey, I may not have been contributing to this Forum long but I have been collecting Marvel comics since the mid '80s and I'm offering further insight here. I've been enjoying all these different discussions immensely. I'm NOT here simply to shit disturb so don't treat me like that. I actually like putting together the pieces of the puzzle to see the broader picture of the Marvel Universe. I thought this Forum was about providing proof, not smackdown. 

Thanks, 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 29 Aug 2005 03:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 01:57 am    
By metaldragon

The other side of the coin to the Wasp's knowledge of X-Factor: Nowhere in XF 1-7 is the Beast shown updating his Avengers files, no mention of it either. Where would Wasp have gotten the very private information that Hank McCoy was a member of the mutant hunting organization X-Factor from? Has there been an issue of Avengers after A 263/FF 286 where someone mentions that Beast updated his file before WCA@ 1? And what would the explanation be that Wasp knew and Iron Man didn't? 

Up until XF 25, the only people who discovered that X-Factor and the X-terminators were the same people (outside of their trainees Rusty Collins & Artie Maddicks, Cameron Hodge, Candy Southern, and Beast's ex-girlfriend Vera Cantor) were: Magneto, he spotted them in their mutant hunting human garb and recognised them in XF 9/UXM 210, and the X-Men, who learned it from Magneto. 

Later that same issue (XF 9), Freedom Force discovered that Warren Worthington III was a financial backer to the X-Factor organization and leaked that information to reporter Trish Tilby. And that was the ONLY information they got. None of the others' civilian names came up except Warren's. Even with that bit of info Trish didn't put the full picture together until X-terminators publicly announced they were actually X-Factor in XF 25 (though she came close in XF 21 just before she was shot by the Right). 

Of course, XF 9 is during the Mutant Massacre crossover so these are moot points. 

In conclusion: Between XF 1 and XF 9, NOONE but the members of X-Factor, their trainees, Cameron Hodge, Candy Southern, and Vera Cantor knew that the X-terminators and X-Factor were the same people. Except Iron Man who found out in IM@ 8 and the Wasp who somehow magically pulled it out of her butt in WCA@ 1. Oh, sorry, I don't have any evidence that actually happened... 
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 29 Aug 2005 02:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 07:43 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

All right, calm down. 

First of all, if you're going to use profanity, this is not the place for you. 

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
This entire excercise was in order to generate discussion about the order of these issues as a whole. 
<<<

And that's what we're doing. Yet, you seem to be offended when someone points out a flaw in your reasoning. 


Quote: 
>>>
Sofar, no one has offered proof that they DON'T belong the way I've placed them! 
<<<

And if you've spent some time studying the forum, this shouldn't surprise you. The burden of proof is on you, not us. We've simply pointed out a flaw in one link in your chain of reasoning. 


Quote: 
>>>
If these two annuals are a case of "well, it could go either way" my surmises based on the information make more sense to have IM@ 8 before WCA@ 1. If not, provide proof, 
<<<

I'm just not going to go down the route of providing "proof" for every one of my placements, to anyone who asks. Made that policy decision a long time ago. *shrug* Sorry. 


Quote: 
>>>
don't give me "What book was this shown in?" responses to my surmises. 
<<<

I apologize that you misinterpreted my intent. My question in the previous response was much more polite, but you ignored it, and repeated your logical error in the followup. You simply rephrased the statement, but didn't correct the error. I assumed that was my fault--that I hadn't made my point clearly enough--so I restated it, and tried to be clearer. 


Quote: 
>>>
Hey, I may not have been contributing to this Forum long but I have been collecting Marvel comics since the mid '80s and I'm offering further insight here. I've been enjoying all these different discussions immensely. I'm NOT here simply to [censored] disturb so don't treat me like that. I actually like putting together the pieces of the puzzle to see the broader picture of the Marvel Universe. I thought this Forum was about providing proof, not smackdown. 
<<<

You're taking this way too personally. The forum isn't about proof, and it's not about smackdown. There's been no smackdown here. One step in your reasoning was challenged, and, in an effort to make your argument *stronger*, the suggestion was made to drop that step. Perhaps because this challenge came from "on high", you interpreted it to mean that you were slapped down, by someone in charge. 

I reject your interpretation, because to accept it would mean that I, alone, don't have the right to challenge your reasoning. If you're going to be offended when your reasoning is challenged, or your logic is questioned, you're going to have a rough time at the Project. Read the forum, read the archives (http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/archive/). You'll find plenty of times where *my* reasoning is challenged, and *my* logic is questioned. I'm still here, and I hope you will be too, for a long time to come. 


watching: katrina

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 07:45 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I believe metaldragon is correct -- IM@ 8 should occur before A@ 15. Actually, since IM 211 is Iron Man's last appearance before A@ 15 (see the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #5), IM@ 8 needs to occur before IM 211. My notes indicate that IM@ 8 must occur after XF 3 and before XF 5; don't ask me why -- it's been a while since I've reviewed these issues, but perhaps metaldragon can check on that. And according to the aforementioned index, XF 9 occurs before A@ 15. 

I don't believe metaldragon's proposal to place IM@ 8 sometime before A@ 15 contradicts anything in the indexes. FWIW, I've placed Iron Man in IM@ 8 between IM 208 and 209.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 09:17 am    
By metaldragon

Sorry if you considered that censored phrase as profane. Again, I apologise. 

If you read all this again, the fact that you quoted each of my questions and simply repeated the phrase "What book was this shown in?" over and over was rude. If that dosen't read like a smack down, what does? Sorry if I got frustrated by that response. You could have just quoted the paragraph as speculation and asked me or the Forum as a whole for more specific information as related to my questions. I don't care if the information turned up supports or contradicts what I said, I'm just here for the facts too! 

OK, this is all getting beside the point. The fact is: WCA@ 1 was listed in Beast's chronology after IM@ 8 but placed after the Mutant Massacre crossover. I was simply supporting an earlier placement (between IM@ 8 and ASM 282) but still after IM@ 8, which contradicts Iron Man's chronology which places WCA@ 1 before IM@ 8. To phrase it another way, these appearances are listed both before and after each other within the same universe. I was simply trying to determine which one was right. I used proof of Wasp having information in WCA@ 1 that noone else outside of X-Factor and their immediate confidants had. I used further proof that Iron Man didn't have that information until half way through IM@ 8. Those two facts allowed me to support one placement over the other. You seemed to ignore those facts in favor of repeating over and over "What book was this shown in?" to my questions which were attempts at gathering more information while speculating on the information I had. 


Quote: 
>>>
I apologize that you misinterpreted my intent. My question in the previous response was much more polite, but you ignored it, and repeated your logical error in the followup. You simply rephrased the statement, but didn't correct the error. I assumed that was my fault--that I hadn't made my point clearly enough--so I restated it, and tried to be clearer.  
<<<

I'm sorry if you felt I was ignoring your question. I thought I was actually trying to answer it! I certainly wasn't ignoring it! 

Sorry if I'm still confused, but how can you reject the fact that in one chronology IM@ 8 comes before WCA@ 1 and in another it's the other way around? There are no other chronologies that list both issues because only Beast and Iron Man are in both issues. This is a 50/50 contradiction and I've simply chosen one of them and supported it with the evidence I had onhand. With the speculations on what evidence there was bits, I was simply asking for other information from the Avengers, West Coast Avengers, or Iron Man titles that might contradict my reasoning. Sorry if it just looked like pointless fan theory and ignoring your question.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 11:07 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
My notes indicate that IM@ 8 must occur after XF 3 and before XF 5; don't ask me why -- it's been a while since I've reviewed these issues, but perhaps metaldragon can check on that. And according to the aforementioned index, XF 9 occurs before A@ 15 


Hmm. I'm not sure why IM@ 8 must occur before XF 5... It has to go after XF 3 of course, because that is the issue Beast looses his fur. 

Looking for gaps... There is one between XF 3 & 4, XF 4 & 5, possibly between pages 6 & 9 of XF 7, XF 7 & 8, and possibly between pages 8 & 11 of XF 8. After that, X-Factor is either searching for Rusty Collins and fighting Freedom Force or heading down into the Morlock tunnels to search for Artie Maddicks and fighting the Marauders. The continuity is packed solid after page 11 of XF 8 up to the Mutant Massacre conclusion. 

I can see that the gap between XF 7 & 8 is a tight squeeze because Scott and Jean wouldn't leave the radiation from XF 7 in the tunnels for long before cleaning it in XF 8, but that is the only spot (or during 8 in the between-pages gaps I mentioned) where XF@ 1 could fit because Jean wears the head covering mask up to XF 7 page 4, then wears the new one from XF 9 page 14 onwards. ASM 282 has to go after the end of XF 7 because there is a footnote reference that he saw the X-terminators battling X-Factor in the newscast from XF 7. Marvel Girl is wearing the head covering mask in ASM 282 so XF@ 1 has to go after that, either before XF 8 or in the between pages gap in XF 8. M/FAN 32 also has to fit in there somewhere after ASM 282 but before page 11 in XF 8 as well. It could go on either side of XF@ 1. That leaves the two Annuals which have caused such drama. 

Because of Thor's appearance in WCA@ 1 between page 5 & 7 of T 373 (After he arrives on Earth from Asgard and before he has dinner with the Sapristi family & enters the Morlock tunnels, not sure how large this gap actually is! It must be considerable if A@ 15 and WCA@ 1 fit in there!), the latest Beast could appear, mid-shower, to answer Wasp's phone call would be between page 13 and 14 of XF 9. This is not actually a gap, just a spot where he changed from his X-Factor uniform into his X-terminators costume before entering the Morlock tunnels. (Speculation: It's possible he had just enough time for a quick shower and answer her phone call.) He says: "--And though in normal times I'd rush to provide you with my services, I'm reasonably consumed by our old/new team just now! But if you really need me--!" Which is rather understated for what was happening during XF 9 and if he actually did leave to join up with the Avengers, he would be abandoning little Artie Maddicks to a grisly death in the Morlock tunnels which leads me to believe it would go a bit earlier, say during that gap in XF 8 at the latest. Maybe he was just being polite? 

Question, does Freedom Force's appearance in WCA@ 1 happen before their fight with X-Factor in XF 8-9 or after? I assume after, since you have placed it right before the Mutant Massacre during T 373 in Thor's chronology. (I notice Spider-Woman wasn't shown "on camera" in WCA@ 1. Is this before she joins Freedom Force or after she leaves, or was she just off-pannel that issue?) Again, very tight continuity between those appearances. Within minutes of fighting X-Factor certainly. 

X-Factor's appearance in IM@ 8 could fit there anywhere between XF 3 and XF@ 1 for X-Factor. Since the Annuals were written to happen just before the Nov, Anniversary issues of the Marvel titles (in most cases between the Oct and Nov issues of their regular titles), I've tried to place them as close to those issues in X-Factor's chronology as possible. Further evidence of where it fits for Iron Man would change my placement of course!
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 29 Aug 2005 02:00 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 11:39 am    
By metaldragon

So here is the flow chart version: 

XF 3 
(gap) 
XF 4 
(gap) 
XF 5 
XF 6 
XF 7 (page 1-6) 
(possible gap) 
XF 7 (page 9-last) 
(tight gap where ASM 282, M/FAN 32, XF@ 1, and WCA@ 1 might fit. M/FAN 32 could possibly go before or after XF@ 1 but in that chronological order. WCA@ 1 placement here depends on Freedom Force.) 
XF 8 (page 1-8) 
(possible gap/alternate spot where ASM 282, M/FAN 32, XF@ 1, and WCA@ 1 might fit. M/FAN 32 could possibly go before or after XF@ 1 but in that chronological order. WCA@ 1 placement here depends on Freedom Force.) 
XF 8 (page 11-last, REALLY tight continuity ensues from here on...) 
XF 9 (WCA@ 1 might possibly squeeze between pannels of pages 13 & 14 when X-Factor changes from mutant hunter uniforms to X-terminators costumes. Placement here depends on Freedom Force.) 

IM@ 8 could potentially fit in any spots after XF 3 and before XF@ 1. If IM@ 8 takes place AFTER WCA@ 1, then that would change the placement of WCA@ 1 in X-Factor's chronology (dependant on Freedom Force's appearances of course!). Heck, that might even push Thor's appearance earlier than T 373 and I'm SURE we don't want to go there...! 

Since Paul has given further evidence that IM@ 8 does happen before [edited this bit which I had backwards from what I meant] WCA@ 1, I think that point just became moot!
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 05 Sep 2005 12:53 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 11:56 am   
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
If you read all this again, the fact that you quoted each of my questions and simply repeated the phrase "What book was this shown in?" over and over was rude. If that dosen't read like a smack down, what does? Sorry if I got frustrated by that response. You could have just quoted the paragraph as speculation and asked me or the Forum as a whole for more specific information as related to my questions. 
<<<

Go back and read my post of Aug 28 11:34 a.m. (central time). I'm not sure what "quoted...as speculation" means, but I *did* quote the paragraph, and pointed out the flaw in the logic, where you said that the Wasp appearance must come after the Iron Man appearance, because Wasp learned about Beast from Iron Man. That was faulty logic, and I pointed it out. Your reply reworded it somewhat, but basically used the exact same paragraph. 

I don't consider my second reply rude, certainly not in the context of other, much more heated discussions on this forum. But again, I'll apologize if you were taken aback by them...that was never my intent. My intent was to be more direct, more abrupt, more attention-getting, than the *first* comment. I felt it was necessary, to get the point across that I had somehow failed to deliver, with my first post. 


metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Sorry if I'm still confused, but how can you reject the fact that in one chronology IM@ 8 comes before WCA@ 1 and in another it's the other way around? 
<<<

Gee, you know, I've looked over my posts, and I can't find where I've rejected that. The only thing that I've rejected is your claim that Wasp's appearance must have taken place after Iron Man's, because Wasp can't know something that Iron Man doesn't. That's a rejection of the reasoning, not the conclusion. Now, having said that, it's entirely possible you know, for one chronology to say IM@ 8 comes before WCA@ 1, and another to say the exact opposite, and for there to be no problem. I have no clue whether that's the case here. 

By all means, state your case. But do it without saying things like, Wasp couldn't have known about Beast, unless Iron Man told her. Leave that stuff out. Your argument will be a lot stronger that way. 

I haven't rejected any of your conclusions. I'm trying to help reach the proper one. 


watching: katrina

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 12:07 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
The only thing that I've rejected is your claim that Wasp's appearance must have taken place after Iron Man's, because Wasp can't know something that Iron Man doesn't. 
<<<

The piece of evidence you seem to keep overlooking is that Wasp knew something the ENTIRE MARVEL UNIVERSE didn't know up to that point, including Iron Man prior IM@ 8, except for the VERY few exceptions I listed. 

...and of course the Watcher...  


Quote: 
>>>
Now, having said that, it's entirely possible you know, for one chronology to say IM@ 8 comes before WCA@ 1, and another to say the exact opposite, and for there to be no problem. 
<<<

The point I've been making all along is that there IS a problem because Iron Man and Beast are in BOTH! TOGETHER!  Therefore the issues CAN'T come before AND after each other! lol!!! Now do you see my frustration?!?  

Er... unless there is some weird time travel involved or a flashback and there is NO evidence of either.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 29 Aug 2005 12:22 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 12:11 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Quote: 
>>>
The piece of evidence you seem to keep overlooking is that Wasp knew something the ENTIRE MARVEL UNIVERSE didn't know up to that point, including Iron Man prior IM@ 8, except for the VERY few exceptions I listed.  
<<<


Much better. 


watching: katrina

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 03:06 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
The point I've been making all along is that there IS a problem because Iron Man and Beast are in BOTH! TOGETHER! 
<<<

Now this is an important distinction. Of course, Beast and Iron Man are both in the two books. But by stressing the word "TOGETHER!", are you saying they're in the same *scenes* in both books? That they meet in both books? Cause you haven't been making *that* point all along, which would have made a difference. 

And if you edit anything in your posts other than grammar and punctuation, after someone has replied to your posts, it would be a courtesy to make it clear what you've edited. 


watching: katrina

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 04:02 pm    
By metaldragon

In IM@ 8 Beast physically meets Iron Man face to face. 

In WCA@ 1 Iron Man is shown phoning James Rhodes, while Wasp phones Beast, Hercules contacts Thor, Captain America reaches Falcon, etc., etc... all within the same time frame. So yes, though they are not in the same physical location, Iron Man and Beast are clearly shown at the same temporal location. 

Quote: 
>>>
But by stressing the word "TOGETHER!", are you saying they're in the same *scenes* in both books? That they meet in both books? Cause you haven't been making *that* point all along, which would have made a difference. 
<<<


Uh... I though I HAD been making that point all along...?! Why does it seem like I'm struggling to find a common language...? There are no flashbacks or time travel involved here. It's all pretty linear... Why else would I bring up the problem with those placements in Beast's and Iron Man's chronologies in the first place if there wasn't a problem...?!? 

Sorry about the editing. I realise I forgot to mention something or wanted to clarify something I realise might have sounded vague after I posted and then edit it before I notice someone had replied to the original version of the post.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 04:36 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Metaldragon, I think the problem is ... you talk too much.  

Don't take that the wrong way -- I'm not saying this as a mod, or from "on high". But when I read your posts ... I glaze over. Getting through each paragraph is a chore, and by the time I've hit the sixth paragraph in a row where you're quoting full word balloons of dialogue that seem only tangentially related to the point you're making ... I've forgotten what your point IS. 

Maybe people seem to keep misunderstanding what you seem to think is a simple argument, because you're not stating it in simple langauge. 

In this thread, after you've been pushed and pushed, your frustration finally led you to get your points across in simple terms: 

1) Iron Man and the Beast appear in the same scenes in two annuals -- and those annuals are in different orders in their chronologies. One order must be wrong. 

2) The Wasp knows of Hank's current affiliation at a time when nobody else does. This might be considered evidence for moving the annual where she demonstrates that knowledge. 

Combining #1 and #2, you get an extremely pared-down version of your point. And a version that's much more understandable to the public at large. 

Note how short each of my paragraphs was in this post. Note how direct each sentence was. That's a deliberate posting style on my part ... because I've found that when discussing complex logical problems like the ones the MCP faces on a regular basis, the more direct and to-the-point you are, the better. 

This advice is worth what you paid for it, but I'd hate to see a potentially-correct chronological analysis get lost in overkill and miscommunication. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 05:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
In IM@ 8 Beast physically meets Iron Man face to face. 

In WCA@ 1 Iron Man is shown phoning James Rhodes, while Wasp phones Beast, Hercules contacts Thor, Captain America reaches Falcon, etc., etc... all within the same time frame. So yes, though they are not in the same physical location, Iron Man and Beast are clearly shown at the same temporal location. 

Quote: 
>>>
But by stressing the word "TOGETHER!", are you saying they're in the same *scenes* in both books? That they meet in both books? Cause you haven't been making *that* point all along, which would have made a difference. 
<<<

Uh... I though I HAD been making that point all along...?! Why does it seem like I'm struggling to find a common language...? There are no flashbacks or time travel involved here. It's all pretty linear... Why else would I bring up the problem with those placements in Beast's and Iron Man's chronologies in the first place if there wasn't a problem...?!? 
<<< 


Let me see if I can clear some of this up. It seems the problem is with how the language is being used.  


You said this: 
Quote: 
>>>
The point I've been making all along is that there IS a problem because Iron Man and Beast are in BOTH! TOGETHER! 
<<<

Then you said this: 
Quote: 
>>>
Why else would I bring up the problem with those placements in Beast's and Iron Man's chronologies in the first place if there wasn't a problem...?!?  
<<<

Yes, we can agree, that you've said all along that there's a problem with Iron Man's and Beast's listings. But that's ignoring the second part of your statement. The part that says that the problem is caused by Iron Man and Beast being in both books together. That's the part that you haven't contended "all along", and it's not a small point. 

Your orginal post had only one paragraph about Iron Man, and to review, here it is: 

Quote: 
>>>
Cross checking with Iron Man's chronology, you have it placed WCA@ 1 before IM@ 8. Now, here's the snag... In WCA@ 1 Wasp phones Beast at the X-Factor building and says, "I know you're back with your old friends in the X-Factor group--". Wait a minute! How would she know this?!? As far as the everyone knew, including Iron Man and the rest of the Avengers, a guy calling himself Beast was part of a group called the X-terminators who attacked the X-Factor building on the news in XF 7! Iron Man certainly didn't know anything about the X-Factor/X-terminators connection and didn't even recognise the Beast when he met him in IM@ 8 (Beast had become de-furred) until Beast took him aside and explained everything during the fight in that issue. Iron Man then must have told Wasp how to get ahold of Beast when she needed to phone him in WCA@ 1, which would logicly place it after IM@ 8. 

So the change to Iron Man's chronology would be from: 

A@15 
WCA@ 1 
IM@ 8 

to: 

IM@ 8 
A@ 15 (leads directly into...) 
WCA@ 1  
<<<


As you can see, there's no mention that Iron Man and Beast were together in WCA@ 1. That's where I'm coming in, saying that it's a new development to the discussion, not something that was contended from the beginning. 

I think we're making progress here... 


watching: katrina

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 05:54 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
Iron Man then must have told Wasp how to get ahold of Beast when she needed to phone him in WCA@ 1 


When I wrote this, I assumed the reader would understand that I meant that Iron Man could have given Wasp that information "in WCA@ 1" at the time she needed to phone Beast in WCA@ 1. Which means Iron Man, Wasp, and Beast were all in that issue together. Sorry that seemed vague. I guess I keep forgetting that people don't just look up "WCA@ 1" online or in their collection and see which characters appear there to understand what the heck I'm talking about! 
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 11:19 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

metaldragon said: 
>>>
Question, does Freedom Force's appearance in WCA@ 1 happen before their fight with X-Factor in XF 8-9 or after? I assume after, since you have placed it right before the Mutant Massacre during T 373 in Thor's chronology.  
<<<

According to the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #5, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants appears in A@ 15 after XF 9 and before WCA@ 1. 


metaldragon said: 
>>>
Since Paul has given further evidence that IM@ 8 does happen after WCA@ 1, I think that point just became moot! 
<<<

No, I noted that IM@ 8 happens before A@ 15 (which occurs before WCA@ 1). I think the gaps you mention after XF 5 are too small to allow for IM@ 8 comfortably. That's why I'm suggesting the gap between XF 3 and 4 or between XF 4 and 5 for IM@ 8. 

I suggest the following chronological order: 
XF 3 
XF@ 1 
IM@ 8 
XF 4 
XF 5 
XF 6 
XF 7 
XF 8 
XF 9 
A@ 15 
WCA@ 1 

For Iron Man, IM 211 would have to occur sometime after IM@ 8 for his last appearance before A@ 15 to be IM 211. 

I'm not sure how this info contributes to anything, since I'm losing the strain of the argument in this thread, but it sounds like IM@8 needs to go earlier rather than later in the chronologies of some characters to make listings consistent. Is that right?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 12:56 pm    
By metaldragon

In that case, Beast's appearance in WCA@ 1 has to take place in those few minutes between pannels on pages 13-14 of XF 9 after fighting Freedom Force and before changing into his X-terminators costume and going into the Morlock tunnels. Right! I think we've found the spot. Works for me! Thanks Paul! 

I re-read XF@ 1 again closely and because of the length of time everything takes there and the lack of time during XF 5-9, my theory about Marvel Girl's mask dosen't work. Drat. That means she only wears it for the USSR trip and then goes back to wearing the head covering one and dosen't wear the new one again until XF 9. 

I'd still put XF@ 1 after IM@ 8 though because I discovered another character I'd fogotten about that found out who X-Factor really were: Senator Thompson of the Senate Committee for Mutant Affairs. I would place XF@ 1 after IM@ 8 for the same reason as previous discussions: "access to secret information no one else had". X-Factor were very shocked and upset that he knew. (Luckily he was on their side.) Again, the only place we are shown "on screen" that someone outside of X-Factor, their trainees, PR guy Hodge, and girlfriends Candy and Vera finds out that information was Iron Man in IM@ 8. (As a senator on the Committee for Mutant Affairs, Thompson would have had a security level high enough to access the Avengers' files?) 

Just to flesh in the other guest appearances... Beast's chronology (and any other members of X-Factor who appear in these titles) should look something like: 

XF 3 
IM@ 8 (this could go on either side of XF 4) 
XF 4 
XF@ 1 (works better after IM@ 8 and latest possible spot before tight timescale) 
XF 5 
XF 6 
XF 7 
ASM 282 (could also go right before M/FAN 32 during XF 8) 
XF 8 (pgs. 1-8) 
M/FAN 32 (could also go right after ASM 282) 
XF 8 (pgs. 11-end) 
XF 9 (pgs. 1-13) 
WCA@ 1 
XF 9 (pgs. 14-end)
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 30 Aug 2005 02:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 02:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'd still put XF@ 1 after IM@ 8 though because I discovered another character I'd fogotten about that found out who X-Factor really were: Senator Thompson of the Senate Committee for Mutant Affairs. I would place XF@ 1 after IM@ 8 for the same reason as previous discussions: "access to secret information no one else had". X-Factor were very shocked and upset that he knew. (Luckily he was on their side.) Again, the only place we are shown "on screen" that someone outside of X-Factor, their trainees, PR guy Hodge, and girlfriends Candy and Vera finds out that information was Iron Man in IM@ 8. (As a senator on the Committee for Mutant Affairs, Thompson would have had a security level high enough to access the Avengers' files?)  
<<<

I'm afraid I don't see the reasoning here. I get that very few people knew X-Factor's secret at this point in time, but why can't Thompson know it before Iron Man does?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 03:05 pm    
By metaldragon

There is no explanation given how Senator Thompson got ahold of that information. X-Factor were shocked and upset that he had it, so obviously they didn't give it to him. The big mystery is: How did he get it? 

I mentioned earlier somewhere here, that in X-Factor 9, all the information Mystique could find out about X-Factor was that Warren Worthington III was one of their financial backers. That's all. She then leaked it to reporter Trish Tilby. Trish couldn't find out more than that either. The entire world was surprised when they announced publicly, over the news in XF 25 that the "X-terminators" were really X-Factor and that X-Factor was not actually a group of humans hunting down mutants to "put them away". 

Senator Thompson says: "More than that, I know the truth about X-Factor, "Iceman"!" to Bobby. X-Factor were all wearing regular clothes when they met with Thompson secretly in an elevator in the World Trade Center. 

I repeat: the ONLY source shown "onscreen" where that information could have come from (outside of X-Factor and their confidants which they would never reveal) that they had no control over, was Iron Man. 

A side note: Cameron Hodge was revealed later as a traitor and leader of the Right but why would he leak that information to a Senator who was fighting to stop mutant persecution on a global scale? That REALLY dosen't make sense. 

XF@ 1 could go before or after IM@ 8. Unless someone has some ground-breaking information to the contrary that I'm not aware of, those two stories fall anywhere, in any order between XF 3-5 I'm just making a case for after because of this info.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 04:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I repeat: the ONLY source shown "onscreen" where that information could have come from (outside of X-Factor and their confidants which they would never reveal) that they had no control over, was Iron Man.  
<<<

The operative word being "onscreen." There's really no telling how Thompson got that secret information. It didn't have to be from Iron Man. It's a good theory, though. Unfortunately, we have no definitive evidence (yet) of the placement of XF@ 1 relative to IM@ 8. In the absence of such evidence, I'm willing to place IM@ 8 before XF@ 1. 

Can anyone offer concrete evidence of IM@ 8 occurring after XF@ 1?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 45

Posted: 30 Aug 2005 06:52 pm    Post subject: High Evolutionary Flashbacks
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm currently auditing T 135, and I've run across several flashbacks featuring the High Evolutionary. I'm seeking your thought on where this flashbacks may occur in his early history. 

FB 1 (14:5) While working in his chosen field of genetics, he creates the world's first genetic accelerator, but his colleagues scoff at him. 

FB 2 (14:6) Determined to prove his theories, he subjects his pet dalmation to his machine, but a hunter kills the evolved dog. 

FB 3 (15:1) He knights Sir Ossilot, while Liyan and other new-men look on. 


watching: ncis

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 07:41 pm    
By Ant-Man

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
FB 1 (14:5) While working in his chosen field of genetics, he creates the world's first genetic accelerator, but his colleagues scoff at him. 
<<<

That scene is depicted in PUN@ 1/3 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
FB 2 (14:6) Determined to prove his theories, he subjects his pet dalmation to his machine, but a hunter kills the evolved dog. 
<<<

He is shown evolving "Dempsey" the dog (who is then killed) in PUN@ 1/3 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
FB 3 (15:1) He knights Sir Ossilot, while Liyan and other new-men look on. 
<<<

He is shown knighting the New-Men in UX@ 12/3 


I hope that helps...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 07:53 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Absolutely. Thanks! 


watching: moesha

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 02:56 am    
By shandrakor

Also, I remind you of this thread

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1390

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 05:04 am    
By Enda80

Quicksilver # 9 presents a problem. It shows Wyndham meeting his benefactor in Alexandria, Egypt.

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 01:06 pm    
By shandrakor

It's a little odd that they would make that mistake, but for the purposes of chronology at least, it's unimportant. While one says Alexandria and one says Geneva, both the Quicksilver 9 flashback and the X-Factor 3/3 story have the first apperance of the Benefactor in the same timeframe. I'm inclined to stick with the original (Geneva) location, simply because that story is significantly more detailed than a single word box with illustration. 

{snipped} 

For anyone who read my comments about new material in that flashback, please ignore what I said. I wasn't paying enough attention, and it was referring to the events of Thor 135. 

Note: I have also edited this into my original post. 

Note2: And then I edited it back out again.

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Thread 46

Posted: 25 Aug 2005 11:21 am    Post subject: Fixed years
By Somebody

Just curious, how many non-WW2 (or earlier) time-specific references have been shown to be absolute (rather than sliding with the general timeline) in Marvel Comics? (i.e., how many stories originally told in the 60s have been shown in relatively recent times to have occured in the 60s, and thusly before the events of FF1, et al, and so on for other years).

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 12:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

What do you mean by "non-WW2 (or earlier)"? 


watching: live from

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 03:08 pm    
By Enda80

Since he is immortal and tended not meet anyone appearing elsewhere, some of Night Raven's appearances could be fixed in the 1980's when they were published.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 05:09 pm    
By Somebody

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
What do you mean by "non-WW2 (or earlier)"? 
<<<

The fact that that I was thinking that it was pretty much the latest point (that said, come to think of it, the 50s could count too) at which references stay static as a rule - i.e., Cap wasn't frozen in the ice a nebulous XX Years Ago, but in 1945; compared to the war Tony Stark became Iron Man in moving from Vietnam to "nebulous SE Asian" to Gulf, to...

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 05:28 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Other than THE 'NAM and the Punisher's Vietnam service, which seems to still be canonical (meaning that he's retroactively getting older), pretty much nothing would seem to fall into that category.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 10:50 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The presence of the Monster Hunters in Marvel: The Lost Generation suggests that some or most of the pre-FF 1 monster/fantasy/sci-fi stories from Strange Tales and the like occurred in the year in which they were published. 

-Sean

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 07:15 pm    
By cnowlin

Flash Thompson left for a while to fight in Vietnam, where he met Sha Shan. 

There are also many Soviet Union/Cold War references throughout Marvel history that suggest certain things were prior to its fall. 

Magneto's sinking of the Leningrad, any early appearance by Darkstar of the other Soviet Super Soldiers, the Iron Man Titanium fight etc. 

The Fantastic Four initially seemed to be in a rush to outdo the Communists in the space race.

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Thread 47

Posted: 29 Jul 2005 02:50 pm    Post subject: Giant-Size Spider-Woman #1
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Since it was requested, the 8-page original story. Surprisingly enough, it's actually significant. 

GIANT-SIZE SPIDER-WOMAN #1: "Choices" 

"Six months ago". Jessica Drew is working on a trivial private eye job, hanging around outside a convenience store waiting for troublemakers. While she waits, she reflects on her career downturn, and muses that even if she had made it to the Avengers, she would almost certainly have been killed by "whatever the hell happened at Avengers Mansion that killed half the team." The generic troublemakers eventually show up and Jessica defeats them with her SHIELD training and malfunctioning powers, earning an 800 dollar fee from her delighted client (who seems slightly starstruck by being in the company of a C-list superhero - he takes her photo because it'll "go great next to the picture I took of Quasar"). 

Jessica returns home to her apartment, and finds a man called Connely waiting for her, carrying her old Spider-Woman costume. After a brief altercation, he subdues her. He claims to be a fan of hers, and offers to restore her powers and give her life direction purpose again. She asks what he wants, and he replies "See, well, there's the rub." End of story. 

Characters: Spider-Woman, Connely, and a bunch of minor characters of no significance. 

Continuity: Obviously, this story is setting up the "Who's Jessica working for" storyline in NEW AVENGERS, as well as providing the first part of an explanation for how she got her powers back. 

Jessica talks about Avengers Disassembled as if it were relatively recent, and she apparently doesn't know exactly what happened there. In fact, Spider-Woman was one of the heroes present in AVENGERS #500-503, but evidently (like Quicksilver) it wasn't her at all, but another of Wanda's creations. This story is quite unequivocal that, at this point, Jessica is a retired superhero whose powers only work intermittently. 

For those who get excited about such things, there are green trees in San Francisco, and the phases of the moon are never visible. 
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 03:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Jessica talks about Avengers Disassembled as if it were relatively recent, and she apparently doesn't know exactly what happened there. In fact, Spider-Woman was one of the heroes present in AVENGERS #500-503, but evidently (like Quicksilver) it wasn't her at all, but another of Wanda's creations. This story is quite unequivocal that, at this point, Jessica is a retired superhero whose powers only work intermittently. 
<<<

Disassembled definitely would have been recent, as it, too, occurred "six months" prior to A4 1-6. Can we conclude with certainty that Jessica was not present in Disassembled? Could her statement about not being there to be possibly killed have referred to the initial destruction rather than the subsequent mayhem that all the members got involved in? 

Thank you for the analysis, Paul.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 03:43 am
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I think the implication is almost overwhelming that Jessica was not present at Disassembled. She doesn't seem to know what really happened, and she's unequivocally shown to be retired as a superhero - and living in San Francisco, on the other side of the country. Besides, Bendis himself has established that Quicksilver wasn't really there, so it's hardly a vast logical leap to conclude that at least some of the others aren't there either. (It would, for example, explain why Jocasta looks completely wrong.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 04:53 am    
By Somebody

One of the Handbook guys said he saw the script and the SW in Disassembled was meant to be Julia, and Finch screwed up. 

Oh, and wasn't Jessica already repowered before?

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 05:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

She does have her powers in this story, but they're erratic and unreliable. I think it's an attempt to reconcile previous conflicting stories on the point.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 09:20 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
One of the Handbook guys said he saw the script and the SW in Disassembled was meant to be Julia, and Finch screwed up.  
<<<

Given this fact, and the evidence in GSSW 1 that Paul provides, I think it's safe not to include Disassembled issues in Jessica Drew's chronology. And because it's really not Julia Carpenter who ends up appearing in Disassembled, I guess we can't count those issues among her appearances...unless she donned Jessica's costume for some unknown reason, and that's stretching it. It looks like we'll have to chalk up the Spider-Woman of Disassembled as a creation of Wanda, just as Quicksilver was, as were the characters she used in A 503 to attack the Avengers (Hulk, Red Skull, Wolverine, Ultron, Rogue). Although why she'd create an original Spider-Woman to be there is beyond me. 

We should grapple with the issue of other characters who may not have really appeared in Disassembled. What criteria should be used to determine a "fake" appearance? Other plot lines making it impossible (improbable?) for a character to have appeared, perhaps combined with lack of a speaking part? Who qualifies? Jocasta, since she did not have a humanoid form at this time? Quasar, since he can't be on earth anymore (but then again, wasn't he on earth for a recent FF story)? I'd tread carefully here. Too bad the Falcon wouldn't qualify; there's the matter of inconsistent costumes (considering CA&F) to deal with. 

And, as a side note, if Wanda could make people appear out of nothing, what's to say that the deaths of Ant-Man and Hawkeye were real? We're talking about someone who can create an entirely new reality (with dead folks come to life, no less); what's to say that some of the events in Disassembled were real or just staged with reality-warping powers for the Avengers' torment?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 02:17 pm    
By Somebody

Actually Jocasta DID have a humanoid form last time we saw her - but it's her synthezoid Avengers Forever body, not her original Prez body (she got put in the body of Antigone, from Ultron Imperative, at the end of IM v3 #48).

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Posted: 31 Jul 2005 11:09 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jocasta's profile in this week's Avengers Handbook is non-committal on whether she's there or not. ("Later, inexplicably back in her classic robotic form, she apparently opposed the maddened Scarlet Witch alongside the Avengers.") 

On the other hand, the profiles for Black Knight, Justice, Living Lightning, Mantis, Pulsar, Silverclaw and Triathlon all mention those characters being present to fight the Scarlet Witch, which suggests that appearances should be presumed legitimate unless there is evidence to the contrary. Justice's profile also establishes that Firestar was present. 

Spider-Woman's profile simply makes no mention of the Scarlet Witch at all, which must be a deliberate omission.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Jul 2005 04:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So it sounds like everyone except Jessica Drew and Pietro were really there. I can see Wanda creating a fake Pietro (he is her brother, after all), but...Jessica Drew?? Someone who wasn't even an Avenger by then? That's just...odd. Any chance Julia Carpenter was the one in the classic Spider-Woman togs? Does the Handbook say anything about her? 

And just what has been going on with Quasar? He couldn't return to earth after Maximum Security, and that was still true during the Kang War, when he was based in space. But we've seen him two or three times on earth since. Did I miss something?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Jul 2005 09:35 pm    
By John Simons

Quasar appears to have dealt with his little Ego problem 'off-camera". Even in Marvel time there must be a pretty significant interval between Maximum Security and Dissassembled. Just because Marvel foolishly insists on letting such a great character wallow away in limbo (can you tell I'm a Quasar fan?), there's no reason to think that Wendell spends the time between appearences sitting in a corner staring at the wall.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 01 Aug 2005 02:58 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Julia Carpenter does have an entry in the Handbook, and there's no mention of her being involved in Avengers Disassembled. 

By all accounts, the appearance of Jessica Drew is simply an error. It can be adequately explained in story as one of Wanda's manifestations, but I don't think it ultimately matters - it seems pretty clear to me that it's not the real Jessica.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Aug 2005 06:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Even in Marvel time there must be a pretty significant interval between Maximum Security and Dissassembled. 
<<<

Two years, by my reckoning. Your mileage may vary.  


Quote: 
>>>
Quasar appears to have dealt with his little Ego problem 'off-camera".  
<<<

Don't you hate it when major plot points are just dropped with no explanation?  I see a mini-series here. I'm sure all Quasar fans are with me on this one. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 48

Posted: 01 Aug 2005 10:38 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #6
By metaldragon

FF:WGCM 6 (of 12) 

Published: July, 2001 

Written by: Erik Larsen & Eric Stephenson in the style of Stan Lee. 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 
Invisible Girl 
Mr. Fantastic 
Human Torch 
Thing 
Bruce Banner/Hulk 
Doctor Doom 
Black Panther 
Nick Fury 
Dum Dum Dugan 
Jasper Sitwell 
various SHIELD personel 
Silver Surfer 
The Watcher 
The Leader (in flashbacks) 

Invisible Girl returns just as Mr. Fantastic and Bruce Banner finish their machine to locate Doctor Doom. She is surprised to find the Baxter Building repaired after Doom ransacked it just a few short days ago. Torch stalks away, upset about Crystal being taken back to her family and Sue goes to talk to him while Reed and Bruce discover that Doom cannot be located anywhere on Earth. 

On his way to the Moon, in the new craft he created, Doom gloats over how useful the Cosmic Cube is and considers that the Red Skull was a fool to let it fall from his grasp. (A footnote mentions that the Red Skull did it twice, first in Tales of Suspense #81 and then later in Captain America #119.) 

Back in the Baxter Building, Invisible Girl comforts her brother while the Thing greets the arrival of the Black Panther. As they all gather in the lab, the Panther offers to help while Bruce Banner declines. He tells them hed like to help but the Hulk is too uncontrolable, thanks the Thing for the clothes, and leaves. 

Abord the airborne arsenal of SHIELD, Fury and Dum Dum greet the FF and the Black Panther who have come to ask for the Silver Surfers help. Fury managed to track him down for them and at Mr. Fantastics request for swift transport to the Moon, the Silver Surfer changes the Black Panthers flying vehicle into a spaceship. 

In the Blue Area of the Moon, Doctor Doom uses the Cosmic Cube to reveal the Watchers home. The Watcher is aware that Doom is after his Ultimate Machine (as last seen in Tales to Astonish #74 the footnote tells us) and relates how it killed the Leader when he attempted to use it against the Hulk. Doom scoffs that he knows from the Hulks memories that the Leader did not die (as revealed in Incredible Hulk #115 the second footnote tells us) and has since attacked the Hulk again. The Watcher refuses to give it to Doom and as Doom is about to attack him with the Cube, the Thing tackles Doom. 

Doom uses the Cube to punch the Thing into space then uses it again to re-create some of the Fantastic Fours foes out of moondust. Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Torch, and the Black Panther are attacked by versions of the Infant Terrible, Dragon Man, the Mad Thinkers Awesome Android, Hate-Monger, Hulk, Sandman, Super Skrull, and Klaw. 

Then as Doctor Doom turns to attack the Watcher, he discovers that the alien has summoned a weapon of some kind which he blasts Doom with. Taking up the Cosmic Cube, the Watcher uses it to dissipate the moondust foes. Mr. Fantastic quickly asks the Black Panther to rescue the Thing in his ship while Doom is down but Invisible Girl cries out in horror as they see Doom get up and blast the Cube from the Watchers hand. With Cube in hand, Doom banishes the Watcher to a dimension where he will be helpless only to watch. 

The FF prepares to attack once more but Doom notices the Black Panther rescuing the Thing in his ship. Using the power of the Cube he transports himself and the FF on board. Arrogantly he informs them he has located the Watchers Ultimate Machine and has transfered it to his stronghold and with some final words of contempt for Reed he disappears. Suddenly their spaceship explodes...! 


References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. 

Bruce Banner leaves the Baxter Building this issue after last appearing in FF:WGCM 5. Where he goes next I do not know. 

Not sure either where in the Black Panther, Nick Fury/SHIELD, Silver Surfer, and the Watcher's continuity these appearances go. 


Flashback: 

There are two tiny flashbacks. The first one is two images from Tales to Astonish #74: the Leader with the Ultimate Machine over his head and the Leader lying dead with the Hulk looking down at him. The Watcher shows Doctor Doom these images to prevent him from trying to take the Ultimate Machine 

The second flashback has a note mentioning Incredible Hulk #115 (The issue that reveals that the Leader didn't die after all): Doctor Doom uses the Cosmic Cube to show an image of the Leader in a strange, stilt-legged machine firing energy bolts at the Hulk who is leaping away. Strangely enough this image looks a lot like the cover of Incredible Hulk #123.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 04 Aug 2005 02:08 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 07:43 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Not sure either where in the Black Panther, Nick Fury/SHIELD, Silver Surfer, and the Watcher's continuity these appearances go. 
<<<

I have Panther's appearances in this series all occurring between A 84 and A 85, Uatu's between T 169 and FF 113, and Nick Fury's between SS 17 and IM 33. 

I haven't researched Surfer too thoroughly, but offhand, I would say his appearance here is between SS 17 and SS 18.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 07:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean K. wrote: 
>>>
I have Panther's appearances in this series all occurring between A 84 and A 85 
<<<

I do too, but more specifically I have the Panther in FFWGCM between KZ 1/2 and A 84. 


Quote: 
>>>
Uatu's between T 169 and FF 113 
<<<

Right on. 


Quote: 
>>>
and Nick Fury's between SS 17 and IM 33 
<<<

I agree that it's Fury's last appearance before IM 33, but I'm going to challenge the placement of SS 16-17 in Fury's MCP chronology. 


Quote: 
>>>
I haven't researched Surfer too thoroughly, but offhand, I would say his appearance here is between SS 17 and SS 18. 
<<<

It depends on how soon SS 18 follows after SS 17. SS 18 guest-stars the Inhumans, so if the Surfer appears in SS 18 after FFWGCM, then so do the Inhumans.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2005 09:19 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Sean K. wrote: 
>>>
I have Panther's appearances in this series all occurring between A 84 and A 85 
<<<

I do too, but more specifically I have the Panther in FFWGCM between KZ 1/2 and A 84. 
<<<

Okay, I'll buy that. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I agree that it's Fury's last appearance before IM 33, but I'm going to challenge the placement of SS 16-17 in Fury's MCP chronology. 
<<<

Well, as it stands now, we have the FF appearing in SS 15 and SS 17. These are currently placed after FF 96 and FF 98 respectively, which would mean Fury's appearances in FFWGCM would also have to occur after SS 17. 

What's your problem with Nick Fury's placements of SS 16-17? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I haven't researched Surfer too thoroughly, but offhand, I would say his appearance here is between SS 17 and SS 18. 
<<<

It depends on how soon SS 18 follows after SS 17. SS 18 guest-stars the Inhumans, so if the Surfer appears in SS 18 after FFWGCM, then so do the Inhumans. 
<<<

As I look at things more, the Inhumans and the FF appear in AA2 1-2 after FF 101, and the Inhuman's appearance in SS 18 occurs after that. We've clearly got a gap, then, between SS 17 and 18 so I don't know that there'd be a problem placing Surfer's appearances in FFWGCM in there. 

Besides, at the end of SS 18, Surfer is mad as heck and out to destroy mankind. Granted, he's calmed down when we next see him in SUB-M 34, but I think we'd want to keep that gap as open as possible to account for Surfer's change in behavior.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2005 08:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean K. wrote: 
>>>
As I look at things more, the Inhumans and the FF appear in AA2 1-2 after FF 101, and the Inhuman's appearance in SS 18 occurs after that. 
<<<

Ah, I see. The Fantastic Four Index has the Inhumans' next appearance after FF 99 as AA2 1. An appearance in SS 18 would have to occur after AA2 2. That places SS 18 in late November or early December, clearly after FFWGCM. Thanks, Sean.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2005 11:07 pm    
By JLH

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Besides, at the end of SS 18, Surfer is mad as heck and out to destroy mankind. Granted, he's calmed down when we next see him in SUB-M 34, but I think we'd want to keep that gap as open as possible to account for Surfer's change in behavior. 
<<<

Webspinners: Tales of Spider-Man #4 takes up right where that leaves off, with the Mad Radd. So his behavior then is finally accounted for.

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Thread 49

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 11:07 pm    Post subject: Wolverine / Punisher #1-5
By jephyork
Director

Wolverine / Punisher #1-5 

(not to be confused with "Wolverine and the Punisher: Damaging Evidence" #1-3 or "Wolverine / Punisher: Revelation" #1-4.) 


Synopses and appearances for all five issues: 

W/P #1 
"Napoleon" 

Ten years ago, the Punisher begins eliminating the criminal organization of a bank-robber known as Napoleon. Napoleon flees to Erewhon, a legendary hideout for criminals with prices on their heads, located deep within a South American jungle. 

Ten years later, Erewhon has grown tremendously, and the towns ruling Council announces the arrival of a great prize in "a matter of days": the Punisher. Currently Erewhon is made up almost exclusively of criminals hiding from him, and they all want vengeance. Were treated to a quick flashback of a criminal named Harvey Long escaping maximum security and being directed to Erewhon, as bait to lure the Punisher. That night (likely after midnight), we catch up with Harvey running through the jungle, pursued by the Punisher ... and running smack-dab into Wolverine 

Appearances: 

- pp.1-16  "ten years" ago: 
Gottlieb, Napoleon (Oswald Zinn), the Punisher 
minor characters: Billy, Roy, Val; the Immortals (all six BTS) 

- pp.17-22  present-day: 
the Atheist (Gerald OHiggins), Books (Waverly Jones), "the Demon" (van Daemon), the Lady (Victoria), Harvey Long, Napoleon, the Punisher, Wolverine; Gottlieb? (5 of the 8 council members besides Napoleon are shown in darkness, and one matches Gottliebs profile. Id safely assume its him.) 

- FB (p.18, occurring shortly prior to pp.17-22): 
Gottlieb, Harvey Long 


W/P #2 
"The Lady, the Atheist and the Demon" 

Wolverine, hired to ensure Harvey Long testifies against his former bosses, clashes with the Punisher. As the two fight, Harvey runs away, arriving in Erewhon at sunrise. Wolverine and the Punisher call a truce and follow his trail into the town  but theres no sign of him. The Lady takes Wolverine aside and implores him to help her escape from Erewhon, and that night the Atheist and "the Demon" plead their cases to the Council, that they should each be the one to kill the Punisher. We get flashbacks to their pasts, and then the Council discovers that the Lady has skipped town with Wolverine. The Atheist is dispatched to kill them both, and in a candlelit basement chamber, Gottlieb makes an offering  the head of Harvey Long  to a shadowy figure he calls "the founding father". 

Appearances: 
the Atheist, Books, "the Demon", Gottlieb, Adolf Hitlers corpse (referred to here as "the Founding Father" or just "the Father"), the Lady (first name revealed), Harvey Long, Napoleon, the Punisher, Wolverine 

- FB (pp.14-16  "twenty-odd years ago" to "ten years ago"): 
the Atheist 

- FB (p.18  prior to #1): 
"the Demon" 


W/P #3 
"Who Are All Those People And Why Are They Shooting At Me?" 

That night (likely after midnight), Books sneaks into the Punishers rented hotel room and tries to steal his weapons. The Punisher awakens and stops him, but Books urges him to look out the window  and when he does, he sees the entire town of Erewhon standing outside  and they open fire. Meanwhile, Wolverine and the Lady are ambushed by the Atheist and a party of men. The Lady is fatally shot, and Logan fights the Atheist for a while, but he eventually escapes. 

Back in Erewhon, the ceiling collapses on the Punisher, pinning him  and "the Demon" convinces the mob outside to allow him to perform the execution. As the Punisher seriously considers sawing off his own leg to escape, Wolverine stumbles into a trap laid by the Atheist  and ends up strung up between two trees, with the Atheist preparing to fire a crossbow bolt through his eardrum and into his brain 

Appearances: 
the Atheist (first name revealed), Books (real name revealed), "the Demon", Gottlieb, Adolf Hitlers corpse, the Lady, Napoleon, Pocketbook Bob, the Punisher, Wolverine 


W/P #4 
"The Founding Father" 

The Atheist fires  and the arrow lodges in Wolverines brain. Meanwhile, "the Demon" levers the beam off the Punishers leg and tries to go through with shooting him  but the Punisher takes advantage of his crisis of conscience and convinces him to give him the gun. In the jungle, Wolverines trembling hand reaches for the arrow  and in Erewhon, the townspeople hear the gunshot from inside the fallen hotel. Wolverine catches up with the Atheist and, in poor shape, fights him again, while the Punisher springs out of the ruins and ambushes the townspeople. The Council watches the massacre on a video feed, and eventually Wolverine catches up to the Punisher in the town square. They sneak into the sewers to find the Council, and the townspeople  egged on by Books, who tells them that the Council only brought the Punisher here to "cull the herd"  revolt and head for the Council chambers themselves. When Wolverine and the Punisher arrive, they stare in shock at "the founding father"  seated in the center of the chamber, its the corpse of Adolf Hitler 

Appearances: 
the Atheist, Books, "the Demon", Gottlieb, Adolf Hitlers corpse (identity revealed), Napoleon, the Punisher, Wolverine 


W/P #5 
"Its A Jungle Out There" 

As the Atheist struggles to escape his fate in the jungle  Wolverine had left him tied up in the same trap he had been caught in  Gottlieb reveals that Hitler founded Erewhon after escaping Germany after WWII. The revolting townspeople arrive, and in the melee between them and the Council, the chamber is set on fire. Gottlieb leaps into the flames to join his "father", and Wolverine and the Punisher are subdued and captured by the mob. They awake at sunset, drugged and locked in a cage with the townspeople looking on. Napoleon, the only survivor from the Council, hopes to buy back his peoples loyalty by forcing Wolverine and the Punisher to fight to the death. He offers the Punisher a knife to even the odds  but the Punisher promptly kills Napoleon with it, and they are recaptured by the mob. The next morning, just before sunrise, Books sneaks in to release them. He reveals that hes not hiding in Erewhon from anyone, he hasnt committed any crimes  he just likes living there. And Erewhon has no meaning  theres no reason for anyone to hide there  if the Punisher is dead. 

Later that morning, Wolverine and the Punisher head through civilization  Wolverine noting that the Atheist escaped the trap hed left him in, and the Punisher promising to promptly return with enough weaponry to kill them all  and in Erewhon, Books explains to the remaining townspeople that without the Punisher, theyd be free men. "And deep down, people, lets face it", he says, "nobody wants *that*." 

Appearances: 
the Atheist, Books, Gottlieb, Adolf Hitlers corpse, Harvey Long (dead), Napoleon, the Punisher, Wolverine 

-------- 

Notes: 

The names that several of the criminals are listed by are their trade nicknames  how theyre known in the business. These arent exactly "codenames", but theyre close enough that I feel they should be listed by these nicknames in the MCP. Napoleon, the Atheist, Books and Pocketbook Bob fall into this category. However, two characters have less of an official claim to their nicknames: the Lady and the Demon. 

The Lady is never given a full name  shes called Victoria once, but everyone else calls her "Lady". The term is used as a description ("Im just a lady") and shorthand ("lady, you aint wrong")  but it also seems to be used as a name by men who know her: the Council asks her opinion by saying "what do you think, Lady?", and refer to her behind her back the same way ("what about the Lady?")  and after she gains Logans trust and runs off with him, when shes mortally wounded Logan screams out "Lady!" 

Ordinarily I wouldnt have even noticed that "Lady" was being used as her nickname, but the title of issue #2 is "the Lady, the Atheist and the Demon", which clued me in. But whether or not it comes through completely clearly in the dialogue, there is a definite intent to make her nickname "the Lady". 

"The Demon" is another tricky case  his nickname is in the title of issue #2 as well, but hes never referred to that way by anyone else  they all call him van Daemon, his last name. He reveals that after killing his family, the *newspapers* called him "the Demon"  and he refers to himself as "the Demon" once, but even then there are quotations around the name in his word balloon. Ive listed him by "the Demon" above just to keep with the "everyone has a nickname" format the author seems to be laying out, but honestly it could go either way. 


Also: Im not as up on my Marvel Universe history as I should be, but I dont think Adolf Hitler is available to be here. If I recall correctly, he was burned to death by the original Human Torch in 1945  but this story would have you believe that he escaped Germany after WWII and founded Erewhon. Could this be one of Arnim Zolas Hitler clones? I know the Reich was experimenting with many ways to lengthen Hitlers life  do we have any clones escaped or unaccounted for? Could this be a leftover Hate-Monger  did any live to retire or vanish, or were they all killed? Or, was the one that was killed in 1945 a clone? Like I said, I dont know as much as I should. 

-------- 

Temporal conclusions: 

The first 16 pages of #1 occur "ten years" ago over two weeks or more, and the remainder of the series occurs in the present day, over four days, with full moons shown on nights 1 and 2 (as well as a full moon shown in the FB in #1 that occurs shortly before day 1). As the majority of the series occurs in a South American jungle, we cant glean any placement clues from the weather. Heres how I interpret time passing: 

"Twenty-odd years ago": 

#2-FB (14)  a short montage of the Atheist fighting in Northern Ireland, occurring over an unknown span of time. The only named character appearing here is the Atheist, so the timeframe doesnt matter. 

"Ten years" ago: 

#1 (1:1-1:5)  a montage of four bank heists orchestrated by Napoleon, occurring over an unknown span of time. As above, the only named character appearing here is Napoleon, so the timeframe doesnt matter. 

#1 (1:6-6:4)  one day in Dallas. 

#1 (6:5-9:6)  days later, in an unknown location with palm trees. (The Punisher has had time to travel from Dallas to San Bernadino and Berkeley, and take out local crime cells there. Hes on his way from Berkeley to San Diego, but hasnt arrived yet.) 

#1 (10-11)  likely the next day. (The Punisher arrives in San Diego.) 

#1 (12-14)  one night "three days later", in an unknown location. 

#1 (15:16)  a traveling montage beginning "two days later". Napoleon travels by boat, train and foot to Erewhon, deep in a nameless South American jungle. As above, hes the only named character appearing here, so the timeframe doesnt matter. 


#2-FB (15-16)  "ten years ago", one day in Belfast. (The Athiest asks himself "whats the point?") 

Years ago: 

#2-FB (18)  one night, with a full moon. No timeframe or place given, although its likely several years ago in the South. (van Daemon slaughters his entire family with an axe.) 

Present day: 

#1-FB (18)  one night, with a full moon, in an unknown location with green grass. Several days prior to #1 (17-20). (Harvey Long begins his trip to Erewhon the day after this FB, and it took Napoleon at least three days to get there in the traveling montage before this  so either this full moon is incorrect, or the one in the main body of the series is, or it takes a full month for Harvey to get to Erewhon. Or, both full moons are incorrect.) 

#1 (17-20)  Day 1. One afternoon in Erewhon. (The council announces vengeance on the Punisher in "a matter of days" to the townspeople  and their attack occurs after midnight on day 3.) (From here on in, the entire series takes place in Erewhon.) 

#1 (21-22)  Day 2. Nighttime, likely shortly after midnight. Full moon. 

#2 (1-22)  following directly from #1 (21-22). Nighttime to sunrise, afternoon to night again. 

#3 (1-22)  Day 3. Nighttime, likely after midnight. Full moon. 

#4 (1-22)  same night / early a.m. as #3. Full moon. 

#5 (1-17)  same night / early a.m. as #3-4, then skipping to sunset. 

#5 (18-23)  Day 4. Sunup of the following day. 

-------- 

Chronological placement: 

Beats the hell out of me. Anytime Wolverine and the Punisher are free simultaneously, I guess. 

In #2, Wolverine says to the Punisher "I hear you like it rough"  which sounds like a follow-up joke to Frank Tieris Wolverine-thinks-Punisher-is-gay gag in W2 #186. Im all for placing the series as close to publication order as possible, but if it becomes necessary to push it back to find a slot, it probably shouldnt be placed before W2 #186. 

Im also unsure where to place the Punishers appearance in #1 pp.1-16, "ten years" before the main body of the issue. Hes already known as "the Punisher" and wearing his skull-shirt at the time  but aside from that, there are no other placement clues that I can see. 

-------- 

MCP-style write-ups: 

*THE ATHEIST / GERALD OHIGGINS 
W/P 2-FB 
W/P 1 
W/P 2 
W/P 3 
W/P 4 
W/P 5 

*BOOKS / WAVERLY JONES 
W/P 1 
W/P 2 
W/P 3 
W/P 4 
W/P 5 

*"THE DEMON" / VAN DAEMON (or just "Van Daemon"?) 
W/P 2-FB 
W/P 1 
W/P 2 
W/P 3 
W/P 4 

*GOTTLIEB 
W/P 1 (1-16) 
W/P 1-FB 
W/P 1 (17-22) 
W/P 2 
W/P 3 
W/P 4 
W/P 5 

HITLER, ADOLF (Clone? From "Hate-Monger"? Etc.?) 
 
*W/P 2 
*W/P 3 
*W/P 4 
*W/P 5 

*THE LADY / VICTORIA 
W/P 1 
W/P 2 
W/P 3 

*LONG, HARVEY 
W/P 1-FB 
W/P 1 
W/P 2 
W/P 5 

*NAPOLEON / OSWALD ZINN 
W/P 1 
W/P 2 
W/P 3 
W/P 4 
W/P 5 

*POCKETBOOK BOB 
W/P 3 

THE PUNISHER / FRANCIS CASTIGLIONE / "FRANK CASTLE" 
 
*W/P 1 (1-16) 
 
*W/P 1 (17-22) 
*W/P 2 
*W/P 3 
*W/P 4 
*W/P 5 
 

WOLVERINE / JAMES HOWLETT / "LOGAN" 
 
*W/P 1 
*W/P 2 
*W/P 3 
*W/P 4 
*W/P 5 


			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2005 03:49 am    
By Enda80

It was the real Earth-616 Hitler whose body the Torch burned up. 

Well, perhaps Hitler went to South America and founded Erewhon before his public debut as the Hate-Monger. Consider that we have about 50 years to play with before the end of World War II and his modern era debut as the Hate-Monger (sliding timescale), that leaves much unaccounted for. 

http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/index.php/Hate_Monger_I 

Accounts vary, but at some point rogue geneticist Arnim Zola established a process by which a person could project their mind onto a cloned body. He presented this process to Adolf Hitler. One accounts show that in 1944 Zola had already transferred his mind into his current, ESP box headed body. Talking with the Red Skull, he presented him with a pill to use to place himself in suspended animation. Zola presented Hitler with a completed cloned body (which was even clothed). After Hitler walked out, Baron Strucker, a fugitive, entered the room. Strucker invited Zola to take part in the establishment of HYDRA. Since around 1944 Strucker would think of Zola in his ESP-box body, this would support that Zola had switched bodies at this point and hence the validity of this account. (Fury#1, Marvel Universe#1-3 has Strucker think of Zola.) 

However, while another account does show Zola in his ESP box on the day that Hitler's original body died, Hitler as the Hate-Monger would later recall Zola was still in his original body. Also, in this account, only a cloned brain was ready at the time, Zola had not yet created an entire new body, and Zola did not meet with Hitler until 1945 per this account.(Spider-Man Fear Itself versus Super-Villain Team-Up#17). 

In any event, Zola prepared a series of bodies for Hitler to use in his new identity of the Hate-Monger. (Zola once told Captain America that surgeons had extracted Hitler's brain and that he had preserved it to create a new body for it. This story appears to be a ruse to hide the truth about the Hate-Monger. Since then, the truth behind the Hate-Monger has been discovered, and is known to Spider-Man, Silver Sable, and Nick Fury.) 

So, to account for the disrepcancy, perhaps the completed cloned body from Fury#1 developed sentience and escpaed, and was the one who founded Erewhon. That could explain why only a cloned brain was shown in SVTU#17. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hatemonh.htm 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hitlerad.htm 


(Hell's Angel#3) - A soul fragment of Hitler was seen in the "Dead Zone" (a side realm of Mephisto's Hell). 

Perhaps the hypothetical escaped clone's spirit?

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2005 05:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Jeph.  I'll let you know if I have any follow-up questions.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 12:40 am    
By SeanCurtin

In order to reconcile this story's account of Hitler's founding Erewhon with the origins of the Hate-Monger, you'd have to have the Hate-Monger tooling around South America post-WWII with his original body's corpse in tow. It's workable, but a little clumsy. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 01:16 am    
By Enda80

Maybe Hitler founded Erewhon in his first Hate-Monger body, and got killed in that first Hate-Monger body, mind-jumped to a new body, and abandoned Erewhon. He has gotten killed rather easily in most of his Hate-Monger appearances.

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 12:59 am    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk Vol. 3 #82
By Kevin W.
Director

Chronology Review for Hulk Vol. 3 #82 

This is a pretty simple single story issue. It's purpose is nothing more than to fill the time between the "Tempest Fugit" arc and the "House of M" crossover storyarc which begins in Hulk #83. 

Hulk #82 
"Dear Tricia" 
Written by Peter David 
Drawn by Jae Lee 

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk. Every other character that appears we either don't get a full name for, or is of no significance. 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-16: Bruce Banner is in London one day, walking the streets. He is saved from nearly getting hit by a car, (while crossing the street) by a woman calling herself Tricia. Bruce immediately feels a connection towards her, and she towards him. He offers to take her out for a drink, but she politely refuses as she feels he has a dark side. She climbs into a taxi, which drives just a few feet down the road, when the taxi abruptly stops. The taxi driver jumps out and dashes off, and the taxi explodes. Banner is hit by the shockwave from the blast, and turns into the Hulk. Hulk quickly realizes the taxi driver is an assassin, and he chases the poor sap down the street, before the man collapses dead from fright, (he had a heart attack). 

The Hulk is frustrated at not being able to kill the man himself, when he is suddenly confronted by Tricia's ghost. Tricia explains she's somewhat of a sorcerer, ("Not on a par with Steven Strange, but I'm not totally pants.") She says the assassin trapped her in the taxi with a mystical ward, and blew her up with a bomb. She figures whoever hired the hitman was probably a rival sorcerer here in the London magical community, and asks Hulk to help her find the guilty party. She says her astral form is now without a body, and so she'll fade away in "24 hours", and truly pass on. 

So Hulk spends the next 24 hours running around the city to places Tricia tells him to go, questioning sorcerers. Tricia the ghost can tell by a person's aura if they're the guilty party of not, but every place they go turns up nothing. 

Pgs. 17-22: There's a few short cut scenes showing Hulk questioning suspects around town. Since 24 hours passes over this period, I think the best bet for placing the break between days is between pgs. 16 and 17. So from here on out is clearly the next day. 

Tricia comes to realize that she's run out of suspects, (she can't think of anybody else who would want to see her dead). Giving up hope, she tells Hulk to transform back to Bruce and go tell her fiance' that she died, (the police haven't identified her remains yet). Hulk is stunned to learn she had a fiance', and transforms back to Bruce. Tricia tells Hulk/Bruce that she realizes now, (as she's close to fading away) that her and Bruce are soulmates, (and that's why they felt naturally attracted to each other when they first met). She says they might've been lovers in another life, and hopes to be his lover again in the next life. 

Bruce heads to her fiance's house and the fiance' lets him inside when Bruce says he has bad news about Tricia. He's about to tell him, when the fiance's teenage son, (Tricia's soon to be son-in-law) walks into the room. Tricia's ghost senses from the teenager's aura that he's the guilty party, and the last thing she does before fading away is point an accusing finger at the teenager. Whether the kid is just jealous of Tricia marrying his dad, or a rival sorcerer, the story doesn't say, but anyway, the kid ordered the hit...Bruce transforms into Hulk and Hulk says while this kid is too young to smash, he plans on telling every sorcerer in town that they suffered for his crime, (the suffering being Hulk interrogating them over the last 24 hours). He then tells the kid to run for his life, which the kid promptly does. 

Pg. 23: A few days later, (or possibly weeks later). Enough time has passed that Banner/Hulk has told all of the other sorcerers in London to deal with the boy, and for Tricia's remains to be buried. Banner is visiting Tricia's tombstone and puts a letter on her grave. The letter is the narration we've had for the entire issue, which has Banner basically saying he's sorry he didn't get to know Tricia in this lifetime... 

References: The fog is thick throughout this issue, and every scene is gloomy, making it difficult to tell what time of day it is in each scene. Bruce is wearing a trenchcoat and Tricia is wearing a long coat and a scarf. On the other hand, the taxi driver/assassin is wearing a short sleeve shirt. I get the feeling it's a bit chilly outside, but perhaps not too chilly. 

The Hulk on display here is the "Unleashed Hulk" (for lack of a better term). It's Peter David's version of the Hulk from the late 90's, the same one as seen in the last story arc: Somewhat intelligent, yet with a nasty attitude. 

The prior issue ended the "Hulk on Nightmare's Island" fiasco. I think this is probably Hulk/Banner's next chronological appearance. He left the island and ended up in London. Next issue has him in the Australia, but it's the House of M universe. I suppose once the world "burned to white" in House of M #1, Hulk/Banner was transported to Australia... 

Of course, that's all flexible, and you can probably place this issue anywhere that makes for a good spot on the calender, as long as it's prior to House of M #1. 

Next up is "Arana: Heart of the Spider #1-6" or possibly the latest story arc in Daredevil. Or possibly something else. Never a dull moment. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 06:22 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin. I'll incorporate this into the calendar and put this in the "done" column on the call for analyses. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 06:09 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #7
By metaldragon

FF:WGCM 7 (of 12) 

Published: Aug, 2001 

Written by: Erik Larsen, Eric Stephenson, & Tom DeFalco in the style of Stan Lee. 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 
Crystal 
Lockjaw 
Doctor Doom 
Mr. Fantastic 
Invisible Girl 
Human Torch 
Thing 
Black Panther 
2 of Doctor Dooms lackeys (1 dies at Dooms hand) 
Sub-Mariner 
Medusa 
Blackbolt 
Gorgon 
Karnak 
Triton 
Silver Surfer 
Nick Fury 
Clay Quartermain 
Dum Dum Dugan 
various S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier personel 
Iron Man 
The Avengers (behind the scenes) 
The Watcher 

Brief Synopsis: 

Crystal returns to the Baxter Building with Lockjaw in search of the rest of the Fantastic Four and senses that something is wrong. Her search takes her down to Reeds lab where she discovers Doctor Doom examining the equipment. She attacks but the power of the Cosmic Cube makes him invulnerable. He gloats that he could easily dispose of her like he did the rest of the FF but instead will give her the privilege of grovelling at his feet like the rest of humanity. He vanishes, leaving Crystal denying the thought Johnny and the rest might be dead. 

Somewhere in space, between the Moon and Earth, Invisible Girl has saved the FF and Black Panther in a forcefield bubble. Thing is still unconscious and Sue is struggling to hold onto their pocket of air. Mr. Fantastic reveals that he has a flare gun that will work in any environment and needs Sue to open a small rift in the forefield for just a second so he can fire it. They just manage it and a giant glowing 4 appears above the atmosphere of Earth. 

Doom has returned to his castle in the Adirondacks and summons his lackeys to bring him the ancient Atlantean trumpet-horn. He orders the one who brings it to blow it and from the great depths arise a giant whale shaped monster and other enormous sea creatures which then attack New York. Over a thousand leagues distant, Namor the Sub-Mariner hears the Atlantean trumpet-horn echo across the ocean floor and rushes to investigate 

In space, the Thing finally awakes to discover how grave their situation is but suddenly a mysterious spaceship appears. Worried at first it might be Doom to finish them off they finally recognise it as it comes closer. It is the Inhumans! The royal family welcomes them onboard, Torch has a happy reunion with Crystal, and Mr. Fantastic asks Triton if he could take them to the S.H.I.E.L.D. helicarrier. 

Aboard the helicarrier, Nick Fury speculates that Doctor Doom has taken the FF out of the game and summoned the giant sea monsters. Silver Surfer asks why he suspects Doom and Fury replies that there has been no sight of Namor and it dosent seem his style. He orders Quartermain to contact the Avengers. Silver Surfer offers to help drive off the sea monsters but Dum Dum interrupts to inform Fury that the FF are alive and about to arrive. 

Doom rants that while the heroes are distracted by the sea monsters he can begin the second stage of his unstoppable ascent to the Power Ultimate! His lackeys express their awe for his scheme but Doom feels their praise is weak and says he needs no compliments, only total and blind obedience. With one blast he vaporises one of the two and orders the other clean up the mess. Suddenly the Sub-Mariner smashes through the wall and attacks Doom. With the Cosmic Cube Doom increases Namors mass until he cannot raise himself from the floor. 

Fury, FF, and Inhumans try to figure out Dooms plan and relate what has happend to them all sofar. The Silver Surfer mentions that Doom once managed to strip him of the Power Cosmic. Suddenly Iron Man appears on the video link and informs them the Avengers are doing what they can to deal with the sea monsters. Mr. Fantastic suggest the Silver Surfer and S.H.I.E.L.D. help against the monsters while he needs to get some equipment from the Baxter Building and asks Torch to go with the Inhumans back to Attilan. He says he has a plan and they go their separate ways. 

Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Thing, and Black Panther return to the Baxter Building to discover the Watcher waiting for them. 


References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. 

Black Panther appears here between FF:WGCM 6 and 8. 

Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, and various S.H.I.E.L.D. helicarrier personel last appeared in FF:WGCM 6 and appear next in FF:WGCM 11. 

Silver Surfer last appeared in FF: WGCM 6 and appears next in FF:WGCM 11. 

Im not sure where Iron Man and the Avengers were last but they appear next in FF:WGCM 8. 

The Watcher was seen last in FF:WGCM 6 and appears next in FF:WGCM 8.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 05 Aug 2005 09:03 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Im not sure where Iron Man and the Avengers were last but they appear next in FF:WGCM 8. 
<<< 

I've got Iron Man appearing here after IM 24.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 08:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

And I have Iron Man here after IM 27.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #9
By metaldragon

FF:WGCM 9 (of 12) 

Published: Oct, 2001 

Written by: Erik Larsen, Eric Stephenson, & Tom DeFalco in the style of Stan Lee. 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 
Mr. Fantastic 
Thing 
Human Torch 
Invisible Girl 
Crystal 
Sub-Mariner 
Doctor Doom 
Rick Jones 
the Baxter Building doorman 
Captain Marvel 
Annihilus 
Sandman 
Trapster 
the (Wingless) Wizard 
Blastaar 


Brief Synopsis: 

While the rest of the FF take a coffee break, Reed creates a new prognostication projector machine in his lab. Roughly based on his heat-image tracer (from FF 66-67) he inputs all the data hes gathered so far and says, with a little luck, they will be able anticipate Doctor Dooms next move. 

Down by the East River, Invisible Girl tries to persuade Namor to stay and help them but he has decided to seek out Doctor Doom on his own and make him pay. Crystal tells Sue that they will have to save Namor from himself by finding Doom first. 

Thing and Torch are startled when Mr. Fantastics new machine shows them an image of a giant Doctor Doom towering over the skyscrapers of New York City, crackling with cosmic energy. Reed is less worried by Dooms size and more worried about the cosmic energy. 

At that moment, Rick Jones hurries up to the doorman of the Baxter Building and tells him he has to speak to the Fantastic Four. Its a matter of life and death and the whole planet could be in danger! He just said the magic words and the doorman sends him right up. 

Rick has come to warn them that Doctor Doom has invaded the Negative Zone! 

In the Negative Zone, Captain Marvel watches as Doom smashes an entire spaceship with one blow when the occupant refuses his command to halt. Doom plucks Annihilus from the wreckage and demands that the alien give up his Cosmic Control Rod. 

Somewhere near the Baxter Building, two sinister figures plan to strike while the FF is distracted with Doctor Doom! 

Mr. Fantastic, Thing, Torch, and Crystal prepare to enter portal to the Negative Zone while Invisible Girl is left to guard it with only Rick Jones for company. Suddenly Rick is struck down by a giant sand fist. 

In the Negative Zone, Doom seizes the Cosmic Control Rod from Annihilus and mockingly thanks him for donating it to his cause: to achieve the Power Supreme! Annihilus rages that no power in the universe will keep him from his control rod and he has already summoned his Borers. Unnoticed behind them, the FF have arrived in the Negative Zone. 

Back on Earth, someone has opened the doorway to the Negative Zone to allow a new ally to join them. It was the Sandman who attacked Rick Jones and is now hammering on Invisible Girls forcefield. Finally it gives way and Rick Jones shouts Look out! as someone steps through the portal and blasts her unconscious. Rick looks up in horror as he finds himself surrounded by the Frightful Four: Sandman, Trapster, Wizard, and their new member: Blastaar. 

The rest of the Fantastic Four arrive too late to catch Doctor Doom but realise they cannot allow Annihilus to track him down to Earth. He plans to lay waste to anything in his way. Mr. Fantastic tackles Annihilus while the others deal with his Borers. Captain Marvel decides its time to help the FF even the odds but at that moment, Rick is in trouble. 

Surrounded by the Frightful Four with Invisible Girl lying unconscious at their feet, Rick switches atoms with Captaim Marvel. Sandman and Blastaar are surprised by the switch and Mar-vell manages to dodge Blastaars attack. While Trapster shackles Invisible Girl to the floor with his glue gun, the Wizard looks up and identifies their new foe. 

Now in the Negative Zone, Rick is shocked to find himself almost on top of Annihilus who grabs him by the collar. Mr. Fantastic digs for something in his backpack while Rick manages to slip out of his jacket, a self-defence move he learned from Captain America he says. Reed then hits Annihilus with an amazing uppercut wearing his own special versions of brass knuckles and tells him, My world calls me Mr. Fantastic-- --and youre about to learn why! Thing, Torch, and Crystal manage to defeat the Borers while Reed lays the science-enhanced smack-down on Annihilus. Realising that, no matter what, Annihilus will not give up until he gets his Control Rod back, Reed promises to return it to the alien after they find it. 

On the other side of the portal, the Frightful Four are having troubles capturing Captain Marvel. Finally Blastaar manages to blast him out of the air. Invisible Girl revives in time to hear them gloat over their victory. Filled with horror she realises that because she failed to protect the gateway, the others may pay for it with their lives. 

In the negative zone, Rick Jones is kidnapped by one of Annihilus flying creatures. He does not trust Reeds word so took Rick hostage as insurance. Realising they have no other choice, the FF return to where the portal should be and to their dismay, find it is not there. Immediately, Reed knows something has gone horribly wrong. 

The Frightful Four laugh in triumph the Wizard mockingly salutes their image in the visi-screen while Sue helplessly looks on in dispair from where she is glued to the floor. 


References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. 

The Sub-Mariner last appeared in FF:WGCM 8 and appears next in FF:WGCM 11. 

Im not sure where this appearance would fit in Captain Marvel, Rick Jones, Annihilus, Blastaar, Sandman, Trapster, or the (Wingless) Wizards chronologies.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 01:19 am    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/faustfactory.htm 

The appearance of Blastaar in Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Comic Magazine#9 & 10 throws a wrench into the flashback from Marvel Team-Up#18, which continues directly from X-Men I#53 and continues into MTU#18.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 09:29 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Im not sure where this appearance would fit in Captain Marvel, Rick Jones, Annihilus, Blastaar, Sandman, Trapster, or the (Wingless) Wizards chronologies. 
<<<

I would put Capt. Marvel and Rick Jones between CM 21 and SUB-M 30. Annihilus is between FF@ 6 and FF 108. Sandman is between FF 94 and H2 138. Wizard is between FF 94 and CA:SL2 8. Traspter is between FF 94 and M/TU 2. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
The appearance of Blastaar in Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Comic Magazine#9 & 10 throws a wrench into the flashback from Marvel Team-Up#18, which continues directly from X-Men I#53 and continues into MTU#18. 
<<<

I fail to see much of a problem here. We've already got M/S&L 1/3 in between those two issues as it is and Blastaar has been "killed" repeatedly. Why can't another issue get dropped in there? Yes, it requires some off-camera explanations, but nothing that we haven't seen/done before.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 08:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Pretty much agree with Sean here, although I have Annihilus in WEBSPINNERS 6 before this series. And I don't have CA:SL2...hmm...can someone post an analysis of this series?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 53

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 06:12 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #8
By metaldragon

FF:WGCM 8 (of 12) 

Published: Sept, 2001 

Written by: Erik Larsen, Eric Stephenson, & Kurt Busiek in the style of Stan Lee. 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 
Mr. Fantastic 
Invisible Girl 
Thing 
Black Panther 
The Watcher 
Thor 
Human Torch 
Crystal 
Medusa 
Black Bolt 
Triton 
Lockjaw 
Iron Man 
Captain America 
Goliath (Clint) 
Quicksilver 
Scarlet Witch 
Sub-Mariner 
Doctor Doom 
one of Dooms lackeys 

Brief Synopsis: 

Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Thing, Black Panther, and the Watcher view the attack of the sea monsters on their giant visi-screen. Thing points out the giant whale shaped one and asks --shouldnt Monstro, there, be dead? Reed says it may be it survived (from FF #4) or this could be its offspring. Suddenly they spot Thor and the Avengers flying craft arriving at the scene. They realise how grave the situation is and at Black Panthers urging decide to help the Avengers. 

Torch and the Inhumans arrive back at the Great Refuge and Medusa tells Johnny that Black Bolt has the item which can defeat whatever plan Doom has for the Sacred Helix of Randac: the Agon-sequencer, a box which can negate the effects of the Helix. Gravely she warns him that if either sacred relics are not restored to them, it could doom the Inhuman race-- forever! Suddenly Triton bursts in informing them of an urgent radio call from Mr. Fantastic that they need help. Crystal gets Lockjaw to take her and Torch back to New York City. 

Back in New York, Captain America, Goliath, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Iron Man are doing what they can to try and drive the giant sea monsters back. Thing leaps from the Fantasti-car to join the fray but then Sue spots something that shocks them all... its the Sub-Mariner blowing the trumpet-horn in command of the sea monsters! The Thing thinks there is something fishy about this (no pun intended) and Captain America summons the Avengers to action. Iron Man blasts Namor with his repulsors but Namor hits back, sending Iron Man crashing into a building which collapses on him. Captain America then nails the Sub-Mariner with his shield. 

Namor slams Cap to the ground just as Torch and Crystal arrive. Torch blasts Namor who turns and says By the swirling Sargasso, android-- --You will pay for that--! much to the Torchs confusion. Namor smashes into one of Sues forcefields which she threw up to protect Torch and the Sub-Mariner dosent seem to recognise it. Mr. Fantastic grabs Namor while a concerned Thing checks on the injured Captain America. Cap gives Thing his shield and says its the only thing that will help him defeat Namor. Mr. Fantastic can hold onto the Sub-Mariner no longer so the Thing lets Namor know that its CLOBBERIN TIME! Reed thinks the Sub-Mariners behavior was very uncharacteristic and searches Namors unconscious form. 

Meanwhile the battle goes badly for the rest of the Avengers. Quicksilver has to rescue his sister when Goliath is felled by the giant whale monster. Crystal and Thing try to drive it off while Torch keeps rubble from crushing bystanders. Elsewhere, Iron Man finally manages to dig himself out from the rubble of the building he hit; ready to take on Namor again, while Reed discovers a mind-altering device in Namors right ear. 

Captain America summons the Avengers to battle once more, Mr. Fantastic snags Iron Man from the sky to assist him with a new idea, and Thor returns from driving the sea monsters from the Verrazano Narrows. During the confusion of the battle, Thor is zapped by Doctor Dooms flying psyche-scalpel machine. 

With Iron Mans help, Mr. Fantastic connects the Atlantean trumpet-horn to Iron Mans sonic generator and Iron Man then uses it to draw the monsters back out to sea. 

Goliath and Namor awake to find the battle over. The last thing Namor can remember is attacking Doom. Thor wonders if Doctor Doom can truly be so dangerous, as he is only one man but Mr. Fantastic informs him that Doom is the most dangerous man alive! 

Back at Dooms castle, while the Avengers and Fantastic Four have been kept busy, Doom has located the next object he seeks. An item that can be found only in the deadly, trackless Negative Zone! As a trembling lackey looks on, Doom steps through the portal and exclaims that nobody, not even Richards can stop him! 


References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. 

The Inhumans last appeared in FF:WGCM 7 and appear next in FF:WGCM 12. 

The Watcher last appeared in FF:WGCM 7 and appears next in FF:WGCM 11. 

Black Panther last appeared in FF:WGCM 7 and appears next with the Avengers in FF:WGCM 11. 

Iron Man (and the Avengers BTS) last appeared in FF:WGCM 7. Not sure where the rest of the Avengers (Captain America, Thor, Goliath, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver) appeared before that. Thor appears next in FF:WGCM 10, the rest appear next in FF:WGCM 11. 

Not sure where this fits in Sub-Mariners continuity. He next appears in FF:WGCM 9.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 09:08 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Iron Man (and the Avengers BTS) last appeared in FF:WGCM 7. Not sure where the rest of the Avengers (Captain America, Thor, Goliath, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver) appeared before that. Thor appears next in FF:WGCM 10, the rest appear next in FF:WGCM 11. 

Not sure where this fits in Sub-Mariners continuity. He next appears in FF:WGCM 9. 
<<<

I've got all of Namor's appearances in this series between SUB-M 25 and IM 25. Cap last appeared in FFWGCM 4. Goliath II, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were last in KZ 1/2. Thor was last in T 181.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2005 08:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have slightly different placements, but I don't have all the issues referenced, so Sean may be more on target. 

Namor in the series between SUB-M 26 and 27 
Thor in the series between T 178 and 179 
I agree with him about Pietro, Wanda, and Clint
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 07:14 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I have slightly different placements, but I don't have all the issues referenced, so Sean may be more on target. 
<<<

I'm going my mondo-chart, based on the MCP. Some of the placements are based on reasons other than strictly where they would best fit story-wise. (Largely because I don't have all the issues either!) 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Namor in the series between SUB-M 26 and 27 
Thor in the series between T 178 and 179 
<<<

I can see moving the Namor stories, but I would point out that Thor also appears in A 84 after FFWGCM. Placing FFWGCM after T 178 means that T 179-181 need to be crammed in between FFWGCM 12 and A 84.

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 08:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Is that a problem?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Aug 2005 06:39 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I dunno; I'm just pointing out that it might be a problem, depending on the temporal references in those series.

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Thread 54

Posted: 10 Aug 2005 03:54 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #10
By metaldragon

FF:WGCM 10 (of 12) 

Published: Nov, 2001 

Written by: Erik Larsen, Eric Stephenson, & Bruce Timm in the style of Stan Lee. 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 

Mr. Fantastic 
Invisible Girl 
Thing 
Human Torch 
Crystal 
Captain Marvel 
Rick Jones 
Trapster 
The (Wingless)Wizard 
Sandman 
Blastaar 
Galactus 
Doctor Doom 
Edwin Jarvis 
Thor 
Heimdall 
Loki 
Hogun 
Volstagg 
Fandrall 
Odin 
Balder 
various Asgardian warriors and advisors to Odin 

Brief Synopsis: 

Invisible Girl is trapped and Captain Marvel unconscious on the floor of Mr. Fantastics lab as the new Frightful Four gloat that the rest of the Fantastic Four are stuck in the Negative Zone. Sandman foolishly suggests they smash the gateway machines so the Fantastic Four cant come back but Blastaar does not wish to be cut off from his home and attacks him. As the evil FF fight amongst themselves, Sue uses her powers to activate the portal. The Thing arrives and takes out the Wizard while Mr. Fantastic tackles Blastaar and Torch and Crystal take on the others. Reed tells Sue to use her powers to push Blastaar through the gateway. She shoves him through with an invisible battering ram and Reed shuts down the portal while the rest of the Fantastic Four corner the Trapster and Sandman. 

In the far reaches of space Doctor Doom stealthily approaches Galactus as he is preparing to consume a planet. 

Back at the Baxter Building, the Human Torch takes out the Trapsters paste-gun while the Thing knocks him unconscious. The Sandman tries to escape through some piping but the Thing diverts it back into the lab and Sue surrounds him in an airtight bubble until he passes out. Rick appears and explains that it has been about 3 hours since Captain Marvel and Rick Jones last switched places and they have now switched back. Rick asks what Doom is up to now and Mr. Fantastic tells them he has an idea of what Doom is planing, -- this time, Doom means to steal the greatest prize of all! 

Galactus detects Dooms presence and reaches out to crush him but already Dooms Induction Harness has begun to siphon off Galactus vast powers and with the power of the Cosmic Cube and Cosmic Control Rod he absorbs more and more. Doom, crackling with power, towers over the now tiny figure of Galactus. 

Back on Earth, the Fantastic Four arrive at the Avengers Mansion looking for Thor. Jarvis ushers them in and Reed explains to Thor that in order to counter Doom, Mr. Fantastic seeks the help of the only beings he knows with powers equal to or greater than Doom's new powers: the gods of Asgard. Thor agrees and to Jarvis surprise, Thor spins his hammer and transports them off to the rainbow bridge. 

Heimdall challanges Thor and the FF, and Thing is ready to clobber him but Reed makes him cool down, Thor explains who is companions are and they are allowed to enter Asgard. Loki looks slyly on as they enter they enter Odins hall where they are stopped by the Warriors Three who inform them Odin is holding council with his advisors and may not be disturbed. The Thing has reached the end of his patience and a brawl ensues with other Asgardian warriors joining the fight. Reed pleads with Ben and Johnny to stop but suddenly a blast of power and a cry of ENOW! staggers them all. Odins council was inturrupted and Odin is not pleased. When Reed tries to explain, Odin stops him and reveals that he is aware of what Doom has done and shows them all what he has observed in his enchanted vision-globe. Just as Reed had feared, Doom now has the power of Galactus. He is about to beg Odin for his aid but the All-father replies that when Reed next meets Doom in battle ...Asgard stands with thee! 


References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. 

Captain Marvel & Rick Jones last appeared in FF:WGCM 9, not sure where they next appear. 

Sandman, Trapster, Wizard, and Blastaar last appeared in FF:WGCM 9, not sure where they appear next. 

Not sure where Galactus last appeared but he appears next in FF:WGCM 11. 

Thor last appeared in FF:WGCM 8 and next appears in FF:WGCM 11. Not sure which issues Jarvis appears between. 

Not sure where Odin, Heimdall, Loki, the Warriors Three, Balder or the rest of the Asgardians last appeared but they all appear next in FF:WGCM 11.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 11 Aug 2005 01:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 10 Aug 2005 09:17 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Metaldragon, in a reply to your post on FFWGCM 9, Sean K. wrote: 
Quote: 
I would put Capt. Marvel and Rick Jones between CM 21 and SUB-M 30. Annihilus is between FF@ 6 and FF 108. Sandman is between FF 94 and H2 138. Wizard is between FF 94 and CA:SL2 8. Traspter is between FF 94 and M/TU 2.  


To address your other placement questions... 

I put Jarvis here between A 77-FB and A 280-FB. 

I have FFWGCM occurring between T 178 and 179.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 07:25 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I agree with Paul's placements and would add that Galactus appears in FFWGCM between T 169 and T 184.

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Thread 55

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 02:03 am    Post subject: Chronology Review for Gambit vol. 4 #10, 11, 12
By Col_Fury

Chronology review for Gambit vol. 4, #'s 10, 11, & 12 

Gambit vol. 4, #10 
X, Lies, & Videotape 
Written by: John Layman 
Drawn by: Georges Jeanty 

Appearances: Gambit(Remy LeBeau), Beast(Henry McCoy), Shadowcat(Kitty Pryde), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Colossus(Peter Rasputin), Nightcrawler(Kurt Wagner), Marvel Girl III(Rachel Grey), Emma Frost, Cyclops(Scott Summers), Havok(Alex Summers), Polaris(Lorna Dane), Rogue(I cant remember), Belladonna Boudreaux, Bandit(Donyell Taylor), Eugene, Quill, Winston, & lots of students 

In flashback: Madame Camille, Genevieve, Gambit, Storm, Beast, Iceman, Toad, Pyro, Avalanche, Blob 

Recap in brief: Gambit is trying to recover a DVD of himself cheating on Rogue, which was mailed to her, before she gets back to the mansion. 

Synopsis: pgs. 1-3, Issue opens with Kitty lecturing 3 students(Eugene, Quill, & Winston) about stealing, she then passes them off to Gambit for mentoring. We see Beast reading on pg. 1. 

pgs. 4-5, Gambit & the kids run into a topless sunbathing Storm on the roof while trying to gain access to Rogues room. 

pgs. 6-11, Gambit & the kids are training in the yard. On pg. 9, panels 2 & 3, a flashback reveals Madame Camille making Genevieve call Gambit to inform him about the DVD she mailed to Rogue, Genevieve then burns a backup disk. 

pg. 12, Gambit & the kids run into Colossus, Nightcrawler, Beast, then Rachel Grey & Emma Frost in panels 1, 2, 3, & 4 respectively. 

Pg. 13, Gambit thinks dirty thoughts. 

Pg. 14, Gambit & the kids run into Cyclops, who recruits Gambit for a mission. 

Pg. 15-16, The mission! Gambit, Cyclops, Havok, Polaris, Nightcrawler, & Emma Frost are fighting monsters in Manhattan. 

Pg. 17-18, The group returns, the kids give Gambit the DVD 

Pg. 19-20, Gambit explains his dirty thoughts flashback, which was an adventure from a few years ago. Gambit, Beast, Storm, & Iceman are fighting Pyro, Toad, Avalanche, & Blob. The flashback runs from pg. 19 panel 2, to pg. 20, panel 1. Gambit & Rogue drive off. 

Pg. 21, That night, Belladonna & Bandit watch the backup disk made by Genevieve. 

References: The issue spans one day. 

Gambits looking for a DVD mailed from New Orleans to New York. He needs time to drive himself to New York from New Orleans, & for the DVD to arrive. The day he arrives at the mansion, the DVD is there also. The flashback from pg. 9 has to happen between issue 9 & 10, because Genevieve mailed it on the last page of issue 9, & Gambits at the mansion with knowledge of the DVD at the start of issue 10. Im giving a 3 day gap between issue 9 & 10 to allow for this, & Gambit shouldnt be making any appearances elsewhere between these issues because hes driving straight through to beat the postal service. 

Green leaves & grass in Westchester. 

It seems to be a normal school day at the mansion, everyone is fairly relaxed. It must be between missions for all team member making appearances in the issue, so therefore between storylines in their various books. As far as Gambits team book goes, I have this after X-Men 166-169, due to Havoks missing headpiece/exposed hair. Also, after the Uncanny Savage Land story, & all that entails from the catch-ups in Uncanny 460, for Storm. At least after Astonishing 1-6 because of Colossus, possibly after 7-12. Roughly, before X-Men 171-174, & therefore Rogue 7-12, but definitely after Rogue 1-6 because of Gambits blindness(which was cured in X-Men 165). 

The dirty thoughts flashback on pg. 19 from a few years ago is probably after X@2, & before Uncanny 305. Thanks to Paul O, Sean C, & Paul B, & your 'GAM4 Flashback' subject. 

Bandit was last seen in Night Thrasher vol. 2, & New Warriors before that. 

Belladonna was last seen in Gambit vol. 3, if I remember right. 

Gambit vol. 4, #11 
Thieves World, pt. 1 
Written by: John Layman 
Drawn by: Roger Robinson 

Appearances: Gambit(Remy LeBeau), Noreen Tanaka, Bandit(Donyell Taylor), Belladonna Boudreaux, Detective Freddie Fredrickson, & lots of Thieves & Assassins Guild guys. 

Recap in brief: Tanaka is planning to kill Gambit, Bandit is planning to kill Gambit, Gambit catches up with his ex. 

Synopsis: pgs. 1-4, Tanaka interrogates a security guard about a robbery from last night, turns out it was Bandit, not Gambit. 

Pg. 5-7, One week later. Gambit gives us a history lesson on Rutherford E. Loomis while he steals a rifle. Pg. 7, panel 1, Gambit remembers his last job, where he learned of his current job. 

Pg. 8-10, Bandit arrives, he & Gambit fight. 

Pgs. 11-12, Belladonna arrives, the 3 of them fight security guards. 

Pgs. 13-14, Tanaka kills her partner Fredrickson & steals a truck full of guns. 

Pgs. 15-17, Gambit & his ex-wife Belladonna catch up on old times. 

Pgs. 18-21, Bandit plans to kill Gambit with the combined Thieves & Assassins Guilds, Tanaka arrives with her truck full of guns, they decide to team up. 

References: pg. 1, a full moon in New Orleans. 

Pg. 5, One week later, another full moon in New Orleans! 

Pg. 13, a full moon in New Orleans, same night as pg. 5, & it should be mentioned that pgs. 5-21 are all on the same night. 

Pg. 7, panel 1, Gambit refers to his last job, no mention of how long ago it was. It could easily fit in the week gap between pgs. 4 & 5, because it led him to his current job. Gambit does not appear in pgs. 1-4, it just makes things tidier. 

Theres no mention of how much time has passed between issues 10 & 11, but from Rogue & Gambits dialogue from last issue, it didnt seem that Gambit was planning on staying away from New Orleans for a terribly long time. Other appearances for Gambit can occur between issues 10 & 11 without too much of a problem. 

This issue leads directly into issue 12. 

Gambit vol. 4, #12 
Thieves World, pt. 2 
Written by: John Layman 
Drawn by: Georges Jeanty 

Appearances: Gambit(Remy LeBeau), Noreen Tanaka, Bandit(Donyell Taylor), Belladonna Boudreaux, Madame Camille, Genevieve, Detective Freddie Fredricksons corpse, & lots of Thieves & Assassins Guild guys. 

Recap in brief: Gambit stops everyone trying to kill him, & all subplots are resolved! 

Synopsis: pgs. 1-2, picks up where issue 11 left off. Bandit, Tanaka, & the combined Guilds are inspecting the guns Tanaka brought, & she has a bomb! 

Pgs. 3-5, The next morning. Gambit is posing as a SHIELD agent at the crime scene where Tanaka killed her partner Fredrickson, & some other guys, apparently. 

Pgs. 6-8, Later, Gambit & Belladonna are eating, Gambit informs Belladonna of Bandits extracurricular activities. 

Pgs. 9-18, Later, Gambit drops in on Bandit & Tanaka, who are discussing their plan to kill Gambit. A fight ensues! Belladonna drops in, & theres more fighting! Gambit disarms Tanakas bomb, & shes defeated. The combined Guilds attack, so Gambit, Bandit, & Belladonna fight them. Guess who wins? 

Pg. 19, Later, Gambit drops Tanaka off at the police station. 

Pgs. 20-22, And later still, Gambit convinces Madame Camille to look after Belladonna, who broke up with Bandit. Gambit turns Genevieres affections towards Brother Voodoo, who does not appear in this issue. Gambit decides to leave New Orleans & go back to the X-Mansion. 

References: pg. 3 is in the morning, blue sky. 

Pg. 22 is near dusk, orange-ish sky. 

pgs. 1 & 2 are the same day as last issue, pg. 3 is the next day. It looks as though pgs. 3-8 are one day, & pgs. 9-22 are the following day. Bandit & Tanaka sent out a bunch of Guild guys to look for Gambit, & Belladonna needs time to look over the information Gambit gave her when they were eating. 

So, Day 1: issue 11, pgs. 5-21, issue 12, pgs. 1-2, 
Day 2: issue 12, pgs. 3-8, 
Day 3: issue 12, pgs. 9-22, & 
Issue 11, pgs. 1-4 are a night from one week earlier. 

Aside from the flashbacks mentioned, all breaks between days are full page breaks in these 3 issues, there are no panels among the pages to mess around with.

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 07:43 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Col_Fury. Looks like you got the jump on Jeph and his review of the first nine issues.  

I might be mistaken, but is Rogue's name supposed to be Anna Marie? The name Anna, revealed after the first X-Men movie was released, must be a tip of the hat to my distant cousin, actress Anna Paquin.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 08:00 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I might be mistaken, but is Rogue's name supposed to be Anna Marie? The name Anna, revealed after the first X-Men movie was released, must be a tip of the hat to my distant cousin, actress Anna Paquin. 
<<<

Anna-Marie (something, her surname's still unrevealed). Anna after Miss Paquin, Marie after the movie Rogue (whose name Claremont made a point of giving to another character entirely. I don't think he liked it as a name for Rogue). It was revealed in the Rodi arc of the last Rogue series. 

And, FTR, just to confuse things even more, I think the Ult Universe Rogue has yet another different name (Marianne something, I think)

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 02:37 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

SECRETS OF THE HOUSE OF M lists Rogue's real name, not unreasonably, as Anna-Marie Darkholme.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 12:01 am    
By SeanCurtin

Although any new information revealed in HOUSE OF M supplementary material should be taken with a few grains of salt. It might be true in the House of M altered reality, but not in the regular Marvel Universe. And of course, Darkhome would only be Rogue's adopted name, not her birth name. I doubt that Destiny and Mystique's adoption of Rogue was ever made legal. 

There's also the possibility that Raven Darkholme was a real person who Mystique replaced, as suggested by dialogue in her earlier appearances, but "Raven Darkholme" has been used as Mystique's real name for so long now, and in so many divergent continuities, that it almost certainly has to be considered to be her real name. 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 05:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

True, but I don't think it's a huge stretch to assume that Rogue took on her adoptive mother's surname. We still don't know what her birth name was, but "Anna-Marie Darkholme" has a very good claim on being her "real name", in the same way that nobody worries too much about Punisher and Luke Cage having different birth names.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 56

Posted: 29 Jul 2005 06:21 am    Post subject: Call for Analyses -- Upcoming comics
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It seems like I'm buying more comics than ever these days, but there still are a number of canonical titles and story arcs I don't plan to get, listed below. Most are set in the present day, some in the past. Would anyone like to sign up to do analyses of these comics? I have some volunteers already noted in parentheses. Again, if I've messed up a listing, let me know. And as always, thanks to our analysts! 

Amazing Fantasy v3 #7-12 (Kevin) 
Amazing Fantasy v3 #13-14 (Kevin) 
Arana #7-12 (Kevin) 
Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her #1-6 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Father #1-5 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Redemption #1-6 (PopularLoser) 
Daredevil vs. the Punisher #1-6 (Kevin) 
Drax the Destroyer #1-4 (JLH) 
Fantastic Four: House of M #1-3 (Jeph) 
Fantastic Four/Iron Man: Big in Japan #1-4 (Sean K.) 
Ghost Rider v4 #1-6 (JLH) 
Gravity #1-5 
Hulk: Destruction #1-4 (shandrakor) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #83-86 (Kevin) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #87 (Kevin) 
Iron Man: House of M #1-3 (Jeph) 
Machine Teen #1-5 
Marvel Milestones: Captain Britain, Psylocke and Golden Age Sub-Mariner [first story] (Jeph) 
Marvel Monsters: Devil Dinosaur 
Marvel Monsters: Fin Fang Four 
Marvel Monsters: Monsters on the Prowl (Sean K.) 
Marvel Monsters: Where Monsters Dwell 
Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects #1-6 
Mutopia X #1-5 (Paul O.) 
Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1 (Russ) 
Nightcrawler #7-11 (Jeph) 
NYX #5-7 (Paul O.) 
Ororo: Before the Storm #1-4 (Paul O.) 
Punisher v7 #19-24 (Kevin) 
Punisher v7 #25-30 (Kevin) 
Runaways v2 #7-8 
Runaways v2 #9-14 
Shanna the She-Devil #1-7 
Spellbinders #1-6 
Spider-Man: House of M #1-5 (Jeph) 
Thor: Blood Oath #1-6 
X-Men and Power Pack #1-4 
X-Men: Colossus  Bloodline #1-5 (Paul O.) 
X-Men: Kitty Pryde  Shadow & Flame #1-6 (Paul O.)
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 30 Jul 2005 09:27 am; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 06:31 am    
By jephyork
Director

I can give you an analysis of the Marvel Milestones story right now -- I've got the original UK issue. But I doubt it's canon ... as far as I know, we don't take single stories from generally non-canon series, and Panini's UK "Spectacular Spider-Man" series was originally set in the universe of the 90's TV cartoon. Of the three issues I own, two of them don't seem like they fit in the MU. 

As for Runaways, don't count me in just yet. I'm buying the digest of #1-6 because I like the Excelsior team, but if they don't show up in #7-14, I won't be buying. 

And I'll take the X-Men minis, and the House of M issues, if you don't mind waiting for the you-know-whats to come out. Honestly, I doubt an analysis of the HoM spin-offs will mean anything to your calendar in the long run. 


-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 08:52 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Being careful not to *completely* overcommit myself here, I can take... 

MUTOPIA X 
ORORO: BEFORE THE STORM 
COLOSSUS: BLOODLINE 
KITTY PRYDE: SHADOW & FLAME 

If nobody else wants them, I can also do the other three HOUSE OF M minis, SPELLBINDERS and MACHINE TEEN.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 11:28 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I've got Nick Fury's Howling Commandos. 


watching: monk

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 12:26 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm trying not to overextend myself either, but I am trying to stay focused on the Daredevil/Punisher/Hulk corners of the universe... 

Quote: 
>>>
Arana #7-12 
<<<

I've already come this far with reading this slop, I might as well continue...consider this one to be the cross I carry!  


Quote: 
>>>
Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her #1-6 
<<<

Since I bought the last miniseries, and this is a sequel to it, I guess I'll take this one as well... 


Quote: 
>>>
Punisher v7 #19-24 
Punisher v7 #25-30 
<<<

Yep. 


Quote: 
>>>
Shanna the She-Devil #1-7  
<<<

Isn't this one non-canon? 

Another question: Paul, did you end up picking up the Hercules miniseries that's being released right now? And what about the New Warriors miniseries that's coming out right now, (or is about to come out)? 

In other news, I'm not commiting to Hulk: Destruction, (as it's supposedly set in the past, and I want to focus on titles set in the present). Besides, I think it's safe to say I'm overextended. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 12:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
In other news, I'm not commiting to Hulk: Destruction, (as it's supposedly set in the past, and I want to focus on titles set in the present). Besides, I think it's safe to say I'm overextended.  
<<<

Hulk: Destruction may have problems. 


watching: von ryan's express

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 02:33 pm    
By shandrakor

Put me down for Hulk: Destruction, then 

EDIT: 
Spellbinders doesn't look to cross over into continuity from what I've seen so far. I can take that one off Paul's plate if he'd like to save a little effort.

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 02:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin wrote: 
>>>
Paul, did you end up picking up the Hercules miniseries that's being released right now? And what about the New Warriors miniseries that's coming out right now, (or is about to come out)? <<<

I've got Hercules, so that's on the calendar. (Interesting straddling of New Avengers in that title.) 

I intended to collect New Warriors v3, as I have complete runs of the previous two series, but after seeing the art (issues #1 and #2 are out), I couldn't bring myself to buy it. I'll add it to the call list.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 08:10 pm    
By rhod

Quote: 
>>>
... as far as I know, we don't take single stories from generally non-canon series, and Panini's UK "Spectacular Spider-Man" series was originally set in the universe of the 90's TV cartoon. Of the three issues I own, two of them don't seem like they fit in the MU. 
<<<
 

I don't know about the original intention of the series, but the current writer of the UK Spectacular stories is a friend of a friend (ie a Cardiff resident) and apparently his intention was that the comics were to be untold stories, fitting into existing Spidey canon.

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 08:17 pm    
By rhod

Before anyone asks, no I don't have any issues at all of the Panini Spec Spidey series. Even though a few pages each month may seem to fit as a canon story, the magazine as a whole is definitely aimed at the under-10 market (complete with puzzles and free stickers etc.), and until my own kids are old enough to want comics of their own, I won't be buying it.

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Posted: 29 Jul 2005 09:22 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I can take FF/Iron Man and Monsters on the Prowl. I may get the other Monsters books, but that'll largely depend on my cash flow situation at the time.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 01:00 am    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Drax the Destroyer #1-4 
Ghost Rider v4 #1-6 
<<<

I can take these two. Hopefully, it won't be as much a headache as the last MK Ghost Rider book.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 06:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
the current writer of the UK Spectacular stories is a friend of a friend ... and apparently his intention was that the comics were to be untold stories, fitting into existing Spidey canon. 
<<<

The three issues I've read (#113, 114 and 118) seem to be of the nebulous "might fit someplace in the past, but with a stretch here and there" variety. 

Of course, they're by two different writers ... who's your friend, Ferg Handley or Jim Alexander? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Jul 2005 09:27 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

List updated with new volunteers. Thanks, Sean and JLH. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2005 09:00 am    
By d_f_cornish

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Drax the Destroyer #1-4 
Ghost Rider v4 #1-6 
<<<

I can take these two. Hopefully, it won't be as much a headache as the last MK Ghost Rider book. 
<<< 


Correct me if I am wrong (with evidence) but I'm still not convinced this was set in the mainstream Marvel universe. The complete lack of interaction with pre-established characters, or even mention of them. leads me to think it is separate, sort of "Elseworlds".
_________________
They give birth astride of the grave. 
~Samuel Beckett

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Posted: 01 Aug 2005 10:05 am
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The HANDBOOK says that the Marvel Knights GHOST RIDER miniseries is canon, which puts the matter beyond all doubt.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Aug 2005 11:42 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
Correct me if I am wrong (with evidence) but I'm still not convinced this was set in the mainstream Marvel universe. 
<<<

Sorry, but no, you must provide evidence that we're wrong. 


d_f_cornish wrote: 
>>>
The complete lack of interaction with pre-established characters, or even mention of them. leads me to think it is separate, sort of "Elseworlds". 
<<<

"Lack of interaction" is only evidence that the story was not about any other pre-existing characters; it tells us nothing about its canon status. Of course, you're free to come to whatever personal conclusions you want, but this won't convince anyone here. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 01 Aug 2005 06:17 pm    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The HANDBOOK says that the Marvel Knights GHOST RIDER miniseries is canon, which puts the matter beyond all doubt. 
<<<

My doubts about its canonocity were settled when MK-outfit GR popped up during the Graviton affair in the later issues of Thunderbolts. Not to say it couldn't have been artist error or anything, but it's something. 

Course, the huge, three-mile-island-wide plotholes, such as Johnny Blaze forgetting about the past 20 years of his life, his wife, his kids, and most everything concerning Zarathos, could just be a Mephisto trick. When it doubt, blame a higher power. 

I'm sure the new Ennis series will ignore much of went before, but unlike the Grayson series, will do so in a very informed manner. Or at least an entertaining one.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Aug 2005 09:52 pm    
By d_f_cornish

Three-Mile-Island-wide plotholes? I think you're exagerating. They were much bigger than that, surely.  

Okay, I accept that (as you all have pointed out) Marvel insists it is canon, but - darn it all to heck - did they have to? This was the worst Ghost Rider Story since he met Howard the Duck and Devil Dinosaur - and a very close second.  

And as for blaming a higher power (or lower one perhaps) that's the only way I can think of to explain why Vengeance went psycho - Mephisto gave him his look and (supposedly) his powers, but we saw that the spikes weren't spikes, but part of his skeleton. Then when he went psycho they were gone. I blame the fact that his body was rejecting the physical designs of Mephisto, and his sanity started to suffer from it. I know it sounds a bit lame, but it sounds more professional than blaming an idiot artist who thought Vengeance needed a make-over to match Ghost Rider's cool (barf!) new costume. 

So it's canon - can I pretend it's not? Please?
_________________
They give birth astride of the grave. 
~Samuel Beckett

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 12:44 am    
By JLH

d_f_cornish wrote: 
This was the worst Ghost Rider Story since he met Howard the Duck and Devil Dinosaur - and a very close second.   


I guess whereever Pop Mhan goes, trouble follows. 

d_f_cornish wrote: 
So it's canon - can I pretend it's not? Please? 
 


Ennis did a good job of wrapping up the "Frank Castle: Ghost Punisher" story in a line or two of dialogue. I suppose if someone offered him a endless supply of his favorite ale, he'd consider doing something similar. I do so hope Danny Ketch is shown reading and laughing at an issue of the MK GR stuff, ala Rick Jones and the Hulk: Chapter One annual in that issue of Captain Marvel. Hahaha! Such displays of continuity are clearly why this industry is in the toilet! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 12:47 am    
By shandrakor

Regarding Spellbinders: 

Having read the first 5 issues, there is absolutely no indication that it takes place in a world that recognizes the existance of Supers. If this was taking place in 616, I really would have expected someone to make a crack about Scarlet Witch or Doc Strange. 

I'm still perfectly willing to do the review of it for ya'll, but I'm pretty firmly convinced that it's not taking place in 616.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 01:30 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Having read the first 5 issues, there is absolutely no indication that it takes place in a world that recognizes the existance of Supers. If this was taking place in 616, I really would have expected someone to make a crack about Scarlet Witch or Doc Strange. 

I'm still perfectly willing to do the review of it for ya'll, but I'm pretty firmly convinced that it's not taking place in 616. 
<<<


The Administrator handled this in a post above: 

Quote: 
>>>
"Lack of interaction" is only evidence that the story was not about any other pre-existing characters; it tells us nothing about its canon status. Of course, you're free to come to whatever personal conclusions you want, but this won't convince anyone here. 
<<<


Hmmm....I seem to remember someone stating similar reasons for last year's "Guardians" miniseries to be non-canon. Something about the fact that the characters of the miniseries, (normal citizens) didn't believe in aliens, when there should be overwhelming evidence to the contrary inside the Marvel Universe. Just because the characters in Spellbinders are witches or warlocks, (or whatever they are), doesn't mean they have to bring up Doc Strange in conversation to exist in the same universe. 

There may be other clues making it non-canon, but the fact that no one has mentioned the Scarlet Witch isn't enough.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 10:42 am    
By shandrakor

Like I said, I'd be happy to do the review. 

I also realize that Russ prefers to take the "you have to prove that it's *not* cannon" party line, but when there is absolutely no reason to place it *in* the shared universe, I see little reason to assume that it's there, but nobody happened to mention Supers at all.

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 11:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I don't see anything about SPELLBINDERS to suggest that it's non-canon. It's a mainstream imprint Marvel book and there's nothing obviously continuity-busting about it. 

Of course, as long as the book doesn't interact with anything else, it's ultimately a completely academic question.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 57

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 01:09 am    Post subject: Mortigan Goth: Immortalis #1-4
By SeanCurtin

MORTIGAN GOTH: IMMORTALIS #1-4 

A four-issue miniseries in Marvel UK's "Marvel Frontier Comics" imprint, the intended Marvel UK equivalent of the Epic imprint (although given the name of this particular, it's likely that they were also aiming for the Vertigo market). The other titles in the line were Dances With Demons (four issues); Children of the Voyager (four issues); and Bloodseed (two issues published out of four). There was also one issue of Marvel Frontier Comics Unlimited produced (I've also seen it called the "Marvel Frontier Comics Special"), which also featured a Mortigan Goth: Immortalis story. According to the Marvel Appendix profile on Mortigan Goth, the Special story occurs prior to MG:I 1; there's no room for the character here to appear elsewhere between #1 and #4, and Mortigan loses an eye in #4 which he apparents still has in the Special. 

The series seems to be written under the assumption of real time: Dr. Strange's early career is referenced as "1965" in #1. #4 references the series as occuring in "October 1993", which is the cover date of #1. #4 also had a "one year ago" reference, and going by real-time publication, the only affected character by that "year" is Mephisto, who in late 1992 was appearing in the pages of Thor. I've slotted the "one year ago" flashback before Thor #450 in his chronology below. 

Mortigan Goth is only called "Immortalis" once: in #2, by Mephisto: "You are an immortal--"immortalis", as that priest would call you--" 

MORTIGAN GOTH: IMMORTALIS #1 (Sep 93) 

Mortigan was a young man in the year 1349 whose "bright soul" attracted the attention of Mephisto. Underneath a tree from which a suspected witch had been hanged by a priest named Nicholas De Bellrais, Mephisto challenged Mortigan to a game of chess: Mortigan's soul, or immortality. Mortigan won fairly, and Mephisto vowed revenge. 

In the present, Dr. Strange (explicitly without the power of the Vishanti) visits Falsworth Manor to find Mortigan Goth, a longtime family friend of the Falsworths, who had in "1965" warned him of losing the Vishanti's favor and of vampires. While on a call to Jacqueline Falsworth, he was attacked and injured by a vampire. Spitfire informs Strange that immortals are dying; Strange assumes that Mortigan is in danger, but he is actually accused of being the killer himself. 

Mortigan is at the moment trapped in a collapsed hotel in California, and recounted more of his origins to the only other survivor, named only as Tony. After becoming immortal, Mortigan had returned home and found his mother dying of the plague and learned that his sister had been the one hanging from the tree under which he met Mephisto. Mortigan found Mephisto again, and followed him into De Bellrais's church. De Bellrais tricked his followers into selling their souls to Mephisto in exchange for his own immortality. They had signed a contract thinking that they would be protecting themselves from the Black Plague, but the contract said otherwise; it was written in Latin, so they couldn't read it but had signed it regardless. Mephisto told Mortigan that interfering in the priest's ceremony would cost Mortigan his soul, as De Bellrais offered the infant child of one of the congregation up for sacrifice to the devil. 

Tony interrupted the story, assuming that Mortigan had allowed the child to die, then died and promptly returned as a ghost. Momentarily, Dr. Strange's astral form appeared, and called Mortigan to England. 

1349: 
Mortigan Goth 
Mephisto 
Celia Goth (Mortigan's sister; dead) 
Mistress Wilkins 
Mrs. Goth 
Nicholas De Bellrais 

"1965": 
Mortigan Goth 
Dr. Strange 

"October 1993": 
Dr. Strange 
Spitfire 
Katherine Ainsley-Jones "Falsworth" 
Mortigan Goth 
Tony 
Marguerite Faustus (BTS) 

MORTIGAN GOTH: IMMORTALIS #2 (Oct 93) 

Mortigan and the late Tony arrived at Falsworth Manor and finish the recounting of Mortigan's origin: Mortigan stepped forward to prevent the priest's followers from being given to Mephisto, and in doing so his soul was taken from his living body. Some time later, Mortigan returned to the same area, and found the congregation dead of the plague, and Mephisto standing nearby and gloating. Mephisto informs Mortigan that he had sold his soul in place of those of the congregation, but in his rush to save them hadn't altered the terms of De Bellrais's deal: Mortigan had sold his soul for De Bellrais's immortality, and the priest's followers died of the plague regardless. 

Jacqueline Falsworth informs Mortigan that the vampire that attacked Dr. Strange was her cousin and Mortigan's old flame, Katherine Ainsley-Jones (once referred to as "Katherine Falsworth"). In flashbacks, we see her fall in love with Mortigan, unaware of his immortality; in order to be with him, she accepts an offer of a different kind of immortality from Baron Blood, the then-secret vampire of the family. (Spitfire erroneously refers to Baron Blood as having died in World War II here.) 

"October 1993": 
Mortigan Goth 
Tony 
Spitfire 
Dr. Strange 

1349: 
Mortigan Goth 
Mephisto 
Nicholas De Bellrais 

1940: 
Mortigan Goth 
Katherine Ainsley-Jones 
Spitfire 
Baron Blood 

MORTIGAN GOTH: IMMORTALIS #3 (Jan 94) 

Mortigan remembers that Katherine's drinking of his blood had inexplicably returned her to human form on the night that he had first discovered that she had become a vampire. However, the cure wore off (presumably sometime after the Montesi Formula was used, allowing Katherine a chance to avoid that fate), and she was seeking Mortigan again. Spitfire scouted out Katherine and her servants - a gang of vampirized schoolchildren - and led Strange and Mortigan to them. Katherine happily revealed that she had mesmerized Spitfire when she'd been found, and forced the other pair to surrender. The children fed on Mortigan, while Katherine fed on Jacqueline, but as soon as she did she burst into flame. Strange took the opportunity to behead the vampires, and he and Mortigan burned the bodies. Back at the manor, they noticed a figure watching them through a mirror, not knowing that it was Mortigan's stolen soul. 

1940: 
Mortigan Goth 
Katherine Ainsley-Jones 

"October 1993": 
Mortigan Goth 
Tony 
Spitfire 
Dr. Strange 
Katherine Ainsley-Jones (dies) 
Mortigan Goth's soul 

MORTIGAN GOTH: IMMORTALIS #4 (Mar 94) 

Marguerite Faustus arrived at the Falsworth Manor and recalled how Mortigan (or a lookalike) had killed her husband Johannes despite the couple's shared immortality. When she revealed a scrap of cloth from the attacker, Mortigan admitted that it was his, and that he'd worn that design since the day he'd become immortal. 

Strange cast a spell of psychometry on the cloth, and viewed Mortigan's soul's descent into Hell, where his torment was to wander Hell, unable to help the damned. A century after his imprisonment in Hell, Mortigan's soul was shown how to leave by a monk(?) named Sharihotsu, but fear gripped him on his ascent; he fell back into Hell and into Mephisto's grasp. "A year ago", Mephisto decided that immortals bored him, so he burned all of his contracts with them and sent Mortigan's corrupted soul to kill them all, using mirrors as his portals to Earth. 

Upon learning all of this, Mortigan isolated himself in a room filled with mirrors and waited. When the soul-double arrived, it plucked out Mortigan's eye and told him that it was going to enjoy killing him slowly, then vanished. 

"October 1993": 
Mortigan Goth's soul (also in flashback) 
Dr. Johannes Faustus (dies in flashback) 
Marguerite Faustus (also in flashback) 
Mortigan Goth 
Dr. Strange 
Spitfire 
Tony 

1349: 
Mephisto 
Mortigan Goth's soul 
Nicholas De Bellrais 

At least a hundred years after 1349: 
Mortigan Goth's soul 
Sharihotsu 
Mephisto 

A year ago: 
Mortigan Goth's soul 
Mephisto 

Updated chronologies: 

**AINSLEY-JONES, KATHERINE 
MG:I 2-FB 
MG:I 3-FB 
{MG:I 1} 
MG:I 2 
MG:I 3 

BARON BLOOD/JOHN FALSWORTH JR. 
INV 8-FB 
**MG:I 2-FB (might go before INV 8-FB?) 
INV 9-FB 

**DE BELLRAIS, NICHOLAS 
MG:I 1-FB 
MG:I 2-FB 
MG:I 4-FB 

DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
ST 127/2 
**MG:I 1-FB 
UTSM '97 
... 
SECDEF 11 
**MG:I 1 
**MG:I 2 
**MG:I 3 
**MG:I 4 
DRSTR3 57 

**FAUSTUS, DR. JOHANNES 
MG:I 4-FB 

**FAUSTUS, MARGUERITE 
MG:I 4-FB 
MG:I 1-BTS 
MG:I 4-FB 

**GOTH, MRS. 
MG:I 1-FB 

**GOTH, CELIA 
MG:I 1-FB 

**IMMORTALIS/MORTIGAN GOTH 
MG:I 1-FB 
MG:I 2-FB 
MG:I 4-FB 
MG:I 2-FB 
MG:I 3-FB 
MG:I 1-FB 
MG:I 1 
MG:I 2 
MG:I 3 
MG:I 4 

**IMMORTALIS/MORTIGAN GOTH (SOUL) 
MG:I 2-FB 
MG:I 4-FB 
MG:I 1-BTS 
MG:I 2-BTS 
MG:I 3 
MG:I 4 

MEPHISTO 
GR2 77-FB 
**MG:I 1-FB 
**MG:I 2-FB 
**MG:I 4-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
... 
T 443 
**MG:I 4-FB 
T 450 

**SHARIHOTSU 
MG:I 4-FB 

SPITFIRE/JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON 
INV 19-FB 
**MG:I 2-FB 
{INV 7} 
... 
N 27 
**MG:I 1 
**MG:I 2 
**MG:I 3 
**MG:I 4 
X:HC 3 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 04:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for this analysis, Sean. Talk about an obscure book! 

Would you be able to provide page/panel ranges for the various flashbacks in this series so I can differentiate them? I'm especially interested in the "1965" flashback in issue #1 and the "year ago" flashback in issue #4. Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 10:39 pm    
By SeanCurtin

#1: 

1349: all of pages 1-3 & 14-20. 

"1965": all of pages 4 & 5. 

#2: 

1349: all of pages 4-12, and dialogue on page 13 panel 1. 

1940: page 18 panel 2-page 23 (splash page). 

#3: 

1940: all of pages 1-9. 

#4: 

Just before #1 (Goth's soul kills Faustus): Pages 1-4. 

1349: Page 7 panel 2 to the end of page 14. 

"At least a hundred years" after 1349: all of pages 15-19. 

"A year ago": all of page 20. 

-Sean

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 06:58 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Great. Thanks, Sean.  

I should have asked this before, but do all the scenes set in the present occur in just one day, or does more time pass (e.g. time for Mortigan to get from California to England)?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 05:46 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The present-day scenes in #1 seem to take place over the course of one night. Mortigan presumably travels to England by plane between issues, so that adds some time there. #2-3 take place over the course of a day and night; it might be possible to squeeze #1-3 into a 24-hour time frame, assuming that Strange was attacked early in the night one day, Mortigan caught a flight soon after and arrived in late afternoon, and the confrontation in #3 occured the subsequent night. #4 seems to occur the following day. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2005 09:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Cool. Thanks again, Sean.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 08:30 am    
By Enda80

SeanCurtin wrote: 


(Spitfire erroneously refers to Baron Blood as having died in World War II here.) 

-Sean 


Well, they did manage to stake him a few times during World War II, though of course he got revived when the stake was pulled out. 

Can we slot the 1965 appearance as absolute for Doctor Strange? The Lost Generation suggests he began as a sorcerer before the 1970's. as Ronald Byrd points out: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mastersofobscurity/message/4483 

"Doctor Strange also once appeared in one, in a drunken pre-sorcerer state, and since Marvel: The Lost Generation #8 made it clear that Doctor Strange began his sorcerer career well before the 1970s (He met the Black Fox years before the Black Fox and Pixie fought Nocturne in a story that occurred in the 1970s.), I'd have to say that that particular "Petey" story was invalid, which might make the other ones questionable. Unless it was just another doctor named "Strange" who happened to look like him. : )

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Aug 2005 11:39 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
Can we slot the 1965 appearance as absolute for Doctor Strange? The Lost Generation suggests he began as a sorcerer before the 1970's. 


Nope. None of these dates are absolute. Does Lost Generation say that it takes place in the seventies? And even if it does, that, too, is topical. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 04:28 pm    
By Enda80

Okay, then I guess we would have leave 1965 as "28 years before the present day events of the story in Mortigan Gath". Still, since the only characters seen elsewhere in that fb were Mortigan Goth and Doctor Strange, and both have excuses for slowed aging, it serve as pre-modern.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Aug 2005 04:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Still, since the only characters seen elsewhere in that fb were Mortigan Goth and Doctor Strange, and both have excuses for slowed aging, it serve as pre-modern. 
<<<

Agreed. Aside from the rationalization for slowed aging, it's clearly the editorial intent to be a pre-modern Dr. Strange appearance. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Thread 58

Posted: 25 Aug 2005 12:55 pm    Post subject: Marvel Tales #256/2
By Ant-Man

CORRECTED- 

There is a new backup story in Marvel Tales #256 that is not included in the MCP 
It takes place after Marvel Team-Up #91, when the 'freaks' are free from the carnival after Spidey and Ghost Rider (Blaze) fight Moondark 
The three 'freaks' (a muck monster, gorilla woman and six-armed spider man) encounter Hammer and Anvil 

- 

ANVIL/JOHNNY ANVIL 
M/TU 86 
**M/TALES 256/2 
S-W 34 

HAMMER/LEROY JACKSON 
M/TU 86 
**M/TALES 256/2 
S-W 34
_________________
-Brian Cook-

Last edited by Ant-Man on 25 Aug 2005 06:44 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 05:30 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Can you tell us what happened in it, and why it takes place there?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 59

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 03:11 am    Post subject: Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #12
By metaldragon

FF:WGCM 12 (of 12) 

Published: Jan, 2002 

Written by: Erik Larsen, Eric Stephenson & Stan Lee! 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 

Mr. Fantastic 
Invisible Girl 
Thing 
Human Torch 
Crystal 
Doctor Doom 
Silver Surfer 
Medusa 
Black Bolt 
Gorgon 
Karnak 
Triton 
Lockjaw 
Galactus 
Balder 
The Watcher 
Odin 
Thor 
Captain America 
Black Panther 
Sub-Mariner 
Nick Fury 
Spider-Man 
everyone on Earth 


Brief Synopsis: 

Thing is frustrated with waiting around. The Silver Surfer is still recovering from his imprisonment by Doom. Sue tries to calm Thing down by telling him she believes the comic book monsters Mr. Fantastic has up on the screens were once real and Reed has a plan involving them. Reed begs Ben to stop bugging him, wait for Torch to return with Galactus, and give him a bit more time to work on his plan. 

Doctor Doom towers over the conquered US armed forces and announces they live only to serve him! He then goes on to destroy the White House and Mt. Rushmore. The Inhumans witness this on their view screen and believe their mountain refuge might be next. 

On their way back to New York City in the fantasticar, the Silver Surfer is just coming around when Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, and Thing spot the Human Torchs signal. He and Balder have brought Galactus back to Earth. Thing comments, Thats the big, bad planet-eater? He dont look like he could even take a bite outta Yancy Street! while Reed sets up the device he retrieved from Dooms castle. 

Doom continues his rampage, destroying another mountain. Suddenly he is surprised to find himself attacked by Sporr the giant amoeba, It the living colossus, Fin Fang Foom, and the electrostatic Blip and realises Richards recovered his "ionic inanimate matter converter". 

The Fantastic Four are wearing helmets that control the monsters and the Thing knocks over a tree in his enthusiasm. Mr. Fantastic explains that the helmets are similar to what Doom used to control Namor back in issue #8 but the Silver Surfer is using a cosmic transformulator to channel his power into the ionic helmets to make the monsters seem real to Doctor Doom. 

Doom fights back against the monsters but fails to notice that Fin Fang Foom manages to rip the cosmic cube from his chestplate. He finally defeats them but is nearly deafened by Black Bolts sudden sonic attack. The Inhumans have joined the battle. Batting Black Bolt out of the air, he soon takes out the rest of the royal family and Lockjaw with one massive blow. 

Suddenly he feels hungry and realises it must be the same hunger Galactus feels. He begins to summon Galactus planet-eating device while unnoticed, the FF arrive. Mr. Fantastic dashes from the fantasticar to grab something from the ground while the Thing yells that hes going the wrong way. Reed finds the Cosmic Cube and when the Human Torch attracts Doctor Dooms attention, he waves it at Doom and shouts Sic semper tyrannis! 

Doom shrinks back to his normal size and Mr. Fantastic explains that he distracted Doom with the monsters so he could get the Cosmic Cube. Doom indignantly snarls how dare Richards smugly gloat over one who had been emperor of the world and fires off a blast from his armour before trying to fly off. Invisible Girl throws up a forcefield that Doom crashes into. When he falls back to the ground, the Thing winds up and clobbers him unconscious. 

Mr. Fantastic uses the Cosmic Cube to restore Galactus. The Watcher asks Reed how he will choose to use it next. Reed says, By the power of the Cosmic Cube let all the damage the world has suffered now be repaired! and we see the faces of many heroes and people appear around the Cube. He puts everyone to sleep except Galactus and the Watcher, wipes the memory of the horror that has ensued from everyone elses mind, and sends Doctor Doom back to Latveria. Galactus says, though emotion is unknown to him, he feels something akin to gratitude. 

The Watcher asks what he will do with the Cosmic Cube and Reed commands it to hide itself where it will never again be found (but in order to preserve the web of time it must have returned to where/when Doom found it so the Red Skull could later use it against Captain America!) Galactus and the Watcher leave and the FF wake up. Johnny and Crystal are reunited and they all gaze up at the sky as Reed huggs Sue and wonders if there is a world out there where everyone can live in peace. 

The closing caption says Next: Bedlam at the Baxter Building! 


References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. This goes for Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, Human Torch, and Crystals chronologies. Im not sure where Doctor Doom turns up next but Im sure someone will tell us...! 

The Silver Surfer appeared last in FF:WGCM 11 and you guys can fight over where he appears next... 

Thor, Odin, Balder, and all the rest of the Asgardians last appeared in FF:WGCM 11 and Im sure someone mentioned where they all appear next... 

Galactus appeared last in FF:WGCM 11 and no idea where he appears next. Did anyone mention that earlier...? 

The Watcher appeared last in FF:WGCM 11 and not sure where he appears next. Someone might have mentioned it earlier... 

Captain America & Black Panther (and the rest of the Avengers) appeared last in FF:WGCM 11, Im sure someone mentioned where they appear next... 

Sub-Mariner (and the Atlanteans) appeared last in FF:WGCM 11, you guys can wrangle out the details amongst yourselves where he turns up next... 

Nick Fury (and the rest of the SHIELD guys) appeared last in FF:WGCM 11, and appear next in some issue someone mentioned earlier I think... Hey, Im tired, its late, and I did 10 out of the 12 issues here! What more do you want?!? lol!!! 

Spider-Man probably appears here in the morning before he meets Iceman in ASM 92 (I go for the theory that Iceman appears in ASM 92 between XHY 1 & 2. It fits better with the Lorna situation so: bla!  ) Not sure how the (at least 1) days between FF:WGCM 4 and 12 will affect his chronology otherwise. Discuss.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 13 Jan 2006 02:45 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 07:49 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Nick Fury (and the rest of the SHIELD guys) appeared last in FF:WGCM 11, and appear next in some issue someone mentioned earlier I think... Hey, Im tired, its late, and I did 10 out of the 12 issues here! What more do you want?!?  
<<<

Issue #1 and 2.  


metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Spider-Man probably appears here in the morning before he meets Iceman in ASM 92 (I go for the theory that Iceman appears in ASM 92 between XHY 1 & 2. It fits better with the Lorna situation so: bla!  ) Not sure how the (at least 1) days between FF:WGCM 4 and 12 will affect his chronology otherwise. Discuss. 
<<<

That would mean pushing Spidey's appearance in SS 14 back as well. Which would then push back the FF's appearances in SS 15 and 17 and Iron Man's and Nick Fury's appearances in SS 17. Which pushes back Iron Man's appearances in CA 133 and IM 26. Which pushes back Namor's appearance in SUB-M 26. 

I think Spider-Man's chronology works much better if we get all the "Death of Captain Stacey" and "Gwen leaves for England" stuff out of the way before we throw him into FFWGCM. It also allows us to neatly say that X:HY doesn't even start until after FFWGCM, allowing both series to remain fairly insular as they were written.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 11:53 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
I think Spider-Man's chronology works much better if we get all the "Death of Captain Stacey" and "Gwen leaves for England" stuff out of the way before we throw him into FFWGCM. It also allows us to neatly say that X:HY doesn't even start until after FFWGCM, allowing both series to remain fairly insular as they were written. 
<<<

Um... I HAVE got FF:WGCM before X:HY 1...! The problem is that Byrne says in X:HY 1 that UXM 66 happened 3 days ago and X94/2 happened "yesterday". So that means it looks like: Day 1: UXM 66, Day 2: (nothing mentioned), Day 3: X 94/2, Day 4: X:HY 1, Day 5: X:HY 2. In that time scale we have to fit Iceman's appearances in FF:WGCM 3 & 4 and FF:WGCM 11 & 12 (behind the scenes) plus ASM 92. 

The best fit from Iceman's perspective is: 
Day 1: 
UX 66 (morning: X-Men fight Hulk,Professor recovers) 
FF:WGCM 3 (afternoon: FF calls on X-Men for Sentinels) 
FF:WGCM 4 (afternoon: FF, X-Men, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Dr. Strange fight Sentinels, seems to be a short fight so could slot into any 10 minute spot in Spider-Man's continuity, even between pannels if you have to.) 

Day 2: 
(time for Silver Surfer to go missing for "days" between FF:WGCM 7-11) 

Day 3: X 94/2 (Professor X makes X-Men go over Sentinel ship for tampering, creates telepathic fight scenario which pisses off Iceman, see Day 2) 

Day 4: 
FF:WGCM 11 (morning: X-Men watch tv, fight Doom and get blasted, see Day 2) 
FF:WGCM 12 (behind the scenes: get resurrected, fall asleep for a minute, & everyone's memory wiped including Spider-Man) 
X:HY 1 (later morning: Iceman leaves, afternoon: returns to ask Lorna to go with him, fights Havoc over her, leaves again) 
ASM 92 (evening: Iceman dates new girl to get over Lorna, exagerates about the ammount of time, fights Spider-Man, then teams up with him & saves Robbie, ruins Bullit's swanky fund-raising banquet & career) 
X:HY 2 (goes on bender until 2:00 in the moring) 

Day 5: 
X:HY 2 (morning: Iceman wakes up at Zelda's apartment, then heads to South America by himself) 

Otherwise, if Mr. Fantastic is exagerating about how long Silver Surfer has been missing, events from the X-Men's perspective would fit more comfortably with FF:WGCM 3 & 4 on Day 2 (giving Professor X the rest of Day 1 to recover) and FF:WGCM 11 & 12 on Day 3 after X 94/2 (making Day 4 less busy, and it's possible Reed is looking up at the stars at the very end of FF:WGCM 12, meaning evening? or he could be just looking up at the sky and it's daytime, can't tell). Again, it's hard to tell how much time everything takes during the FF:WGCM series. From Sue's comment in issue 5 and Reed's in issue 11, almost a week passes between 1 and 12 if we take them literally. Otherwise they seem to be racing the clock as events just seem to happen one after another with no other time indications shown.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 03:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Metaldragon... 

In your write-up for #11, you mentioned that the X-Men and the rest of the Avengers appear here BTS. You didn't specifically note them as BTS here -- can you give some details on the nature of their BTS appearances? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 08:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hmmm. I have this chronology for Spidey: 

ASM 92 
FFWGCM 3 
ASM 513-FB 
FFWGCM 3 
FFWGCM 12-BTS 
SM:D&D 2 
SM:D&D 3 
ASM 93 
(And I have SS 14 earlier in Spidey's chronology than is noted in the MCP.) 


Anyway, here's what I have concerning appearances in FFWGCM for the other characters mentioned: 
Cap -- between CA 133 and A 280-FB 
Fury -- between E:A 7 and IM 33 
Galactus -- between T 169 and T 309-FB 
Namor -- between SUB-M 26 and 27 
Panther -- between KZ 1/2 and A 280-FB 
Thor -- between T 178 and T 179 
Watcher -- between T 169 and FF 113 

Your mileage may vary...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 10:16 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
In your write-up for #11, you mentioned that the X-Men and the rest of the Avengers appear here BTS. You didn't specifically note them as BTS here -- can you give some details on the nature of their BTS appearances? 
<<<

In issue 11 they are blasted by Doctor Doom. In issue 12, Mr. Fantastic uses the Cosmic Cube to restore everything Doom destroyed which includes resurrecting all the people Doom killed, then made everyone on the planet fall asleep, and wiped their memories of these events. Even though we don't see images of their faces hovering around the cube like we do for Thor, Odin, Nick Fury, Captain America, Black Panther (wait, they're Avengers!), Spider-Man, and a bunch of generic citizens of Earth, this still affected the X-Men and Avengers directly, so they are behind the scenes. We saw them get blasted by Doom in 11, therefore they were resurrected, etc... in 12. See Day 4 of my Iceman chronology theory.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 27 Feb 2006 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 03:28 pm    
By Enda80

Sporr now in-continuity? Well, I guess that means there is now a Castle Frankenstein in Transylvania!

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 08:47 am    
By metaldragon

I have discovered a gap in Amazing Spider-Man where FF:WGCM can fit as well as make Iceman's appearance in ASM 92 make sense in his chronology. Put FF:WGCM between ASM 90 and 91. 

At the end of ASM 90, Captain Stacy dies in Spider-Man's arms. ASM 91 opens with his funeral. Traditionally, a person is burried around 3 days after they die. ASM 92 continues right off from the cliffhanger ending of ASM 91 and takes place during the same day. So this totally works with my chronology for Iceman. ASM 90 would take place around the same time as UXM 66 and ASM 91-92 would take place the same day as X:HY 1. Therefore a perfect gap for Spider-Man and Iceman's apperances in FF:WGCM.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 09:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

We heard you when you posted this two days ago in the FF:WGCM #11 thread. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 09:17 am    
By metaldragon

Ah! Sorry, thought it got lost at the end of all those posts back there. It also applied to this discussion so I thought I'd post it here too. Sorry! lol! Just picked up Essential Spider-Man when I was on holiday and spotted that gap. It's just really cool when things fall into place. lol!
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 60

Posted: 27 Aug 2005 03:56 am    Post subject: Captain America/Nick Fury: Blood Truce
By Col_Fury

Captain America/Nick Fury: Blood Truce 
W: Howard Chaykin & Ben Schwartz 
D: Andrew Currie 
Published: Feb, 1995 

Appearances: Captain America(Steve Rogers), Col. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Titanium Man(Boris Bullski), Agent Orange(Donovan Goshaw), Nate Thurman(SHIELD), Lt. Col. Tom Gittes(SHIELD), Col. Dmitri Panshin, Sergei Panshin, Sonya Panshin(in fb), lots of SHIELD agents, one AIM agent. 

In Brief: 
A pretty straightforward story, where both SHIELD & AIM are trying to recruit the same ex-KGB agent, with some corrupt SHIELD agents acting badly thrown in for fun. 

Synopsis: 
Pg. 1-5: Paris; Dum Dum & Dmitri are talking about SHIELD medical benefits until Dmitri has to use the bathroom, where hes attacked by Agent Orange. Dum Dum decides that has to use the bathroom also, & walks in on the attack. Titanium Man bursts though the wall & attacks Agent Orange. Dum Dum notes to himself that Agent Oranges armor is a Tony Stark Multi-Man design, but it was never manufactured. Dum Dum is shot in the leg, Titanium Man tries to make Dmitri a job offer, Agent Orange, Titanium Man, & Dmitri all escape. 
Pg. 6-8: SHIELD Helicarrier, above Brooklyn; Fury introduces Captain America to Thurman & Gittes, then Fury & Captain America check in on Dum Dum whos recovering from his gunshot. Gittes & Thurman talk about working with Agent Orange. 
Pg. 9-19: Prague, Czech Republic; Dmitri is getting his son Sergei, Captain America is watching. Agent Orange attacks! Agent Orange & Captain America fight. Titanium Man arrives, wanting to make Dmitri a job offer, more fighting. Titanium Man grabs Sergei, Captain America follows in a SHIELD plane. Agent Orange shoots Titanium Man, who drops Sergei. Agent Orange catches Sergei, Titanium Man falls on the SHIELD plane, through the sun roof. He tells Captain America that hes working for AIM. 
Pg. 20-21: SHIELD Helicarrier, above Brooklyn; Fury, Captain America, Titanium Man, Dum Dum, & some SHIELD agents are on a conference call with AIM. Both AIM & SHIELD are trying to recruit Dmitri, they decide to work together this one time. 
Pg. 22-24: Manhattan; Dmitri walks through the holographic wall entrance to the New York SHIELD office, hes there to do what he can to find his son. Gittes arrives & says that Agent Orange in on the phone, who has Sergei & wants to trade him for Dmitri. 
Pg. 25-26: 24 hours later, France; Fury, Captain America, Titanium Man, & Dmitri take a helicopter to the trade-off site. Gittes & Thurman argue about their plan to kill ex-KGB agents & working with Agent Orange, who turns out to be a teenager. 
Pg. 27: Captain America & Dmitri argue politics on the helicopter. 
Pg. 28-30: Flashback to 10 years ago in Czechoslovakia; Dmitri & his wife Sonya are caught in the middle of SHIELD agents assassinating KGB agents in a restaurant, Sonya dies. 
Pg. 31-32: East Germany; Captain America, Titanium Man, & Dmitri meet Agent Orange, Agent Orange flies away with Dmitri. 
Pg. 33-35: SHIELD Helicarrier; Thurman puts the Helicarrier on red alert, Gittes takes Dum Dums gun away. Agent Orange arrives with Dmitri, Gittes then puts him on trial, & will eventually execute him. 
Pg. 36-47: Fury, Captain America, & Titanium Man arrive at the Helicarrier, then fight some SHIELD agents.(whos been told that theyre rogue LMDs) Agent Orange & Captain America fight, Titanium Man joins in, they win. Fury takes down all of the SHIELD agents. Captain America looks for Dmitri & interrupts the trial. Thurman beats up Gittes. 
Pg. 48: One month later, SHIELD Helicarrier; Dum Dum says that Dmitri has accepted the SHIELD job, Captain America & Fury talk about the Congress hearings tomorrow about the SHIELD agents acting badly. 

The whole thing lasts maybe 2 or 3 days, with the exception of the last page being one month later. The flash back, the 24 hours later, & the one month later all happen on page breaks, no panels to mess around with. 

References, topical: 
Theres an editors note at the start that says This story takes place shortly after the collapse of the Berlin Wall.(which was Nov. 1989, btw) Now this is clearly a topical reference, but it tells us that this story does not take place along with books published by Marvel in Feb 1995, but earlier. There are other topical references that help define shortly after. The movie Grumpy Old Men is mentioned, which hit theaters in Dec. 1993, & the TV show Beavis & Butthead is also mentioned, which started airing in the fall of 1993. Apparently, this would mean shortly after the collapse of the Berlin Wall is 4 years. In any case its all irrelevant, being topical references, but it does put this story in a real world context of early 1994. 

References, Marvel Universe: 
Captain America is in good health & is referenced as Avenger One. Also, Thurman says Captain America means the Avengers. In Feb. 1995, neither was the case. Captain Americas Super Soldier Serum was eating him alive & he relied on gaudy armor to keep him alive. He had also resigned from the Avengers due to his health, if memory serves. In Feb. 1994, however, this story hadnt started yet.(Cap 424 came out in Feb. 1994, the Fighting Chance year long story started in 425) Also, Avengers 370 came out in Jan 1994, which was right after the Bloodlines cross-over with the X-titles. Avengers 370 references the disbanding of the West Coast Avengers, a time when Captain America was calling the shots. This is all conjectural, but it seems to be the cleanest fit for Captain Americas chronology to put this before 'Fighting Chance.' 

Im going to take a look at Captain Americas chronology page & see if I can find a nice spot for this to fit, & then extrapolate a place for Fury & Dum Dum from there. Titanium Man(Boris Bullski) is easy, & the rest probably dont matter, seeing as Agent Orange, Thurman, Gittes, & Dmitri havent made any appearances since this was released 10 years ago. 

Ill suggest the abbreviation CA/NF: BT. Catchy, isnt it?
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 06:01 am    
By Col_Fury

All right, the easy stuff first... 

Titanium Man/Boris Bullski 
T 358 
*CA/NF: BT 
IM3 49 

Dugan, Timothy Aloyisious Cadwallader "Dum Dum" 
TS 7 
*CA/NF: BT 
TOS2 

Captain America/Steven Rogers 
TS 4 
*CA/NF: BT 
CA 422 

For Captain America, he's in the Bloodlines cross-over, then Avengers West Coast is disbanded, then Avengers 370-373, then Thunderstrike,(amongst other books) which seems to be a pretty tight fit. Then there's an ambiguous period where we have CA 422, 424, a Captain Marvel special, CA Drug Wars, then Fighting Chance starts. I've opted to put CA/NF: BT in this spot. Putting CA/NF: BT after Thunderstrike 4-7 works for Captain America, Dum Dum, & Nick Fury, but I've found some confusing entries for Nick, so here's the tricky stuff... 

Here's what we already have for Nick Fury: 

Fury, Col. Nicholas "Nick" Joseph 
XFOR 22 
C2 4-BTS 
X 25 
A 368 
X 26 
A 369 
NOM2 20 
XFOR 27 
DD 321 
DD 322 
DD@ 10/2 
DD@ 10 
SSWP 25 
DD 326 
H2 410 
H2 411 
CA 420 
TS 6 
TS 7 
SSWP 24 
IM 306 

Now, CA 420 leads directly to NOM2 18.(it's a crossover between the books) However, we have CA 420 occuring *after* NOM2 20 in Nick's chronology.(-edit- It should be mentioned that Nick & Cap appear in CA 420 together, side by side. -edit-) In Cap's chronology, CA 420 is placed correctly, & before the Bloodlines cross-over.(Bloodlines is A 368, X 26, AWC 101, UX 307, & A 369) Something else that's confusing in Nick's chronology is Silver Sable & the Wild Pack. We currently have SSWP 25 occuring *before* SSWP 24. In her chronology, it looks like this: 

Silver Sable/Silver Sabinovia 
DD 320 
SSWP 18 
SSWP 19 
SSWP 20 
SSWP 21 
SSWP 22 
SSWP 23 
SSWP 24 
SSWP 25 
DD 328 

Which lines up with Fury's appearances between Daredevil issues 322 & 326. The events of SSWP 24 leads directly into SSWP 25, so it looks like more shuffling of Nick's chronology will be needed. Taking all of this into account, how's this look: 

Fury, Col. Nicholas "Nick" Joseph 
XFOR 22 
C2 4-BTS 
**CA 420 (moved here) 
X 25 
A 368 
X 26 
A 369 
NOM2 20 
XFOR 27 
DD 321 
DD 322 
DD@ 10/2 
DD@ 10 
**SSWP 24 (moved here) 
SSWP 25 
DD 326 
H2 410 
H2 411 
**CA 420 (from here) 
TS 6 
TS 7 
**SSWP 24 (from here) 
*CA/NF: BT 
IM 306 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I've missed something, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

Last edited by Col_Fury on 29 Aug 2005 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 28 Aug 2005 01:22 am    
By Col_Fury

I was doing a review for Fury/Black Widow: Death Duty, & came across something for Titanium Man while cross-referencing Black Widow's & Iron Man's chronologies. Iron Man 314-317 is currently listed under Titanium Man II(Gremlin), but Boris Bullski is in the Titanium Man armor in these issues.(I read them to look for placement clues for Black Widow) Also, Boris Bullski apparently dies at the end of 317, which would explain his 'deceased' listing on the computer monitors in IM3 49.(I was confused about this at the time, when I read that issue for placement of Titanium Man for the review for Blood Truce) So, it looks like Titanium Man's updated chronology should look like this: 

Titanium Man/Boris Bullski 
T 358 
*CA/NF: BT 
**IM 314-BTS(moved here) 
**IM 315(moved here) 
**IM 316(moved here) 
**IM 317(moved here) 
IM3 49 

And: 

Titanium Man II/ 
(From Gremlin) 
IM 229 
IM@ 13/2-FB 
SECDEF 12 
SECDEF 13 
SECDEF 14 
**IM 314-BTS(from here) 
**IM 315(from here) 
**IM 316(from here) 
**IM 317(from here) 

Quote: 
All right, the easy stuff first...  

Me & my big mouth...
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

			*	*	*

Thread 61

Posted: 28 Aug 2005 03:21 am    Post subject: Fury/Black Widow: Death Duty
By Col_Fury

Fury/Black Widow: Death Duty 
W: Cefn Ridout 
D: Charlie Adlard 
Published: Feb 1995 

Appearances: Black Widow(Natasha Romanova), Col. Nick Fury, Col. Yuri Petrov, Night Raven, Ivan, Yi Yang, Angela Cleaver, Snow Leopard(Issa Koblev), lots of Russian mobsters, some SHIELD agents. 

In brief: 
Fury has sent Black Widow to Russia to investigate the murder of a Russian Politician. 

Synopsis: 
Pg. 1-2: Moscow, the dead of winter(isnt that all the time in Russia?); Black Widow is fighting some Russian mobsters trying to find out who Blackbird is. 
Pg. 3: FB to 2 days ago; Blackbird is Night Raven, whos killing Russian mobsters while looking for Yi Yang. 
Pg. 4-5: Black Widow knocks the mobster out, when Yuri Petrov arrives. He fills her in on whats been going on in Russia in the last few years when Nick Fury calls on a picture phone. 
Pg. 6-7: FB; Fury gives us a history lesson on Night Raven & Yi Yang across a 2-page splash montage. 
Pg. 8: Fury ends the call, Black Widow & Yuri discuss Night Raven. 
Pg. 9-11: Night Raven attacks more mobsters looking for Yi Yang. 
Pg. 12: Next Day; Black Widow does some investigating. 
Pg. 13-21: Later that night; more investigating, then shes attacked by mobsters, some fighting happens, Night Raven shows up, whos shot & escapes. Yuri arrives, & Black Widow comments on how bullets didnt affect Night Raven that much. 
Pg. 22-23: Moscows Central Law Courts; Black Widow is still looking into Night Raven, she then decides to contact Angela Cleaver. She tells Ivan to do it over a picture phone call. 
Pg. 24: Siberia; Yi Yang comments that her plan is working out well. 
Pg. 25-26: Lafitte, Louisiana; Ivan pays Angela Cleaver a visit. 
Pg. 27, panel 3 to pg. 28, panel 1: FB; Angela gives Ivan a history lesson on Night Raven & Yi Yang, which picks up from where Furys recap left off. 
Pg. 29-32: Ivan & Angela are attacked by mobsters, they escape, Ivan calls Black Widow, then hes attacked by Snow Leopard. 
Pg. 33-37: Moscow; Black Widow says that the phone went dead. Shes staking out a mobster gun shipment with some Russian cops, & Night Raven arrives! Fighting ensues, Yi Yang shows up in a helicopter who shoots Night Raven then flies away. Black Widow goes to see how Night Raven is. 
Pg. 38-39: FB; Night Raven gives Black Widow a history lesson on himself, which precedes Furys history lesson. 
Pg. 40-41: Black Widow & Night Raven go to Night Ravens place, where they find Ivan tied up. Snow Leopard is waiting for them 
Pg. 42, panel 2-4: FB; to give them a history lesson on himself & Yi Yang!(surprise!) Incidentally, this follows Angelas history lesson. 
Pg. 43-48: Black Widow, Night Raven, Ivan, & Snow Leopard are attacked by mobsters!(Im seeing a trend here) Snow Leopard dies in the explosion. 
Pg. 49: Siberia; Yi Yang has a dream. 
Pg. 50-60: The next day, Siberia; Black Widow, Night Raven, Ivan & Yuri infiltrate Yi Yangs base, Xanadu. Yi Yang has Angela captive, & there are 2 more Leopard Creatures. A fight breaks out! Mobsters die, Yuri Petrov dies, a Leopard Creature dies, more fighting, Angela is rescued. 
Pg. 61-64: Fury shows up with some SHIELD agents, the other Leopard Creature is captured. Night Raven shoots at Yi Yang who is trying to escape in her helicopter, which crashes on Night Raven & explodes, apparently killing them both. 

The whole thing lasts probably 3 days. All FlashBacks & 'next day' references are all on the same page with no panel breaks unless otherwise noted. 

FlashBacks: 
Pg. 38-39: 
Panel 1: Night Raven as a child with his grandfather, being taught of his Native American heritage. 
Panel 2: Night Raven as a child, but hes now in an orphanage or something, but hes referring to his grandfather in the past tense. 
Panel 3: Night Raven fighting in a war, probably WWI seeing as how hes Chicago in the 1930s. 
Panel 4: Night Raven in Chicago, where he met Yi Yang. 
Panel 5: Night Raven in the snow, mentions that Yi Yang cant die, & she tied their destinies together. 
Panel 6: Night Raven in front of an explosion, & something about Simmering rage exploding over the skies of Wisconsin. 
Panel 7: Night Raven attacked by monks. 
Panel 8: Night Raven mentions that Yi Yang renewed his life, hes ugly now with a healing factor of sorts. 
Panel 9: A picture of Night Raven, solidifying his status quo. 

Pg. 6-7: 
A 2-page splash montage, with pictures of Night Raven & Yi Yang in their respective status quos. Nick Furys dialogue explains that Night Raven has been chasing Yi Yang up until the 1980s, which is the last anyone knows of them. 

Pg. 27, panel 3 to pg. 28, panel 1.: 
Pg. 27, panel 3: A montage panel showing Angela Cleaver looking for Night Raven in the 1980s. She finds them but thinks hes dead. 
Panel 4: Night Raven wakes up in the morgue. 
Pg. 28, panel 1: Another montage panel showing Angela & Night Raven working together, leading up to another explosion, explaining why Angela is now in a wheelchair. 

Pg. 42 
Panel 2: Snow Leopard is shown in Siberia fighting wolves, & explains that hes a genetic experiment from a place called Xanadu, a place in Russia that was trying to create super soldiers. 
Panel 3: Yi Yang shows up. 
Panel 4: Yi Yang decides to take the Snow Leopard in. 

Pg. 3: 
Night Raven fighting mobsters 2 days ago. 

References: 
One minute Im playing super hero on the streets of New York, the next Im free-lancing for SHIELD in Moscow. Also, Black Widow is wearing the same costume & haircut that she had in the Avengers at this point in time, so we can easily fit this in with other books published around Feb 1995. 
Black Widow mentions many times that she hasnt been to Russia since the Berlin Wall fell, which is obviously topical. Im taking this to mean that its just been a very long time since shes been back to Russia. This would place this book at least before Iron Man 315-317, because shes playing 'tour guide' showing Tony Stark around Russia in those issues. 

Ivan is not Ivan Petrovich, even though they both have mustaches. This is the only time this guy has shown up, so I wont bother placing him chronologically. The same goes for Col. Yuri Petrov, & Snow Leopard, who both die in this book. 

Ill suggest the abbreviation F/BW: DD. 

Night Raven & Yi Yang currently have no chronology listings, but as Enda80 has pointed out, there are other books out there. So, to get the ball rolling: 

Night Raven 
F/BW: DD -FB pg38-pg39 
F/BW: DD -FB pg6-pg7 
F/BW: DD -FB pg27pn3-pg28pn1 
F/BW: DD -FB pg3 
F/BW: DD 

Yi Yang 
F/BW: DD -FB pg38-pg39 
F/BW: DD -FB pg6-pg7 
F/BW: DD -FB pg27pn3-pg28pn1 
F/BW: DD -FB pg42pn3-pn4 
F/BW: DD 

As pointed out above, F/BW: DD has to go before IM 315. In comparing Black Widow's & Nick Fury's chronologies, I've found a nice place for this to fit in both, seeing as they both appear in FW 10/2, where their respective chronologies line up. So... 

Black Widow II/Natasha Romanova 
TS 19 
FW 10/2 
*F/BW: DD 
A 382/3 
IM 315 

Fury, Col. Nicholas "Nick" Joseph 
H2 426 
FW 10/2 
*F/BW: DD 
FF 400/2 
WARM 14 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I've missed something, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Thread 62

Posted: 25 Aug 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1
By scottandrewhutchins

Karlsson, Weena 
Mitsubishi, Police Chief Cecil 
Nordhoff, Holly 
Yakamura, Midge 
Pollack, Phyllis 
Vampyrions 
Ombu-Doksi 
Sensei Atilla/Melba Slotnik 
Nordhoff, Arthur 
Sibyl 
Blossom 
Yakamura, hiroshi 
Karlsson, Leif 
Karlsson, Mrs. 
Pollack, Jack 
Thids 
Kismet 
Bambi (mention--not the Felix Salten character) 
Moses (Biblical figure) 
Iscariot, Jdas (Biblical figure) 
Madame Fogwa 
Huggerz, the Living Devil Doll 
Hitler, Adolf (flashback, 1918) 
Hussein, Saddam 
the guy who led the coup against Gorbachev 
The Goat 
Nordhoff, Jason 
Nordhoff, Tina 

The latter two are the Nordhoffs' children, but they're not actually seen. The story is expicitly set in the mainline Marvel Universe, as there is reference to the Nexus of All Realities in the Everglades.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 02:55 pm    
By Enda80

What do Moses, Judas, and Hitler do in this story? 


"Moses (Biblical figure) 
Iscariot, Jdas (Biblical figure) 
Madame Fogwa 
Huggerz, the Living Devil Doll 
Hitler, Adolf (flashback, 1918) 
Hussein, Saddam 
the guy who led the coup against Gorbachev 
The Goat 
Nordhoff, Jason 
Nordhoff, Tina "

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 05:46 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Oh, here we go. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 11:06 pm    
By SeanCurtin

That's not really an analysis, it's just a list of names. Without context, there's no way to know which of these characters would merit entries (if any). 

I don't know for certain, but I believe that alternate Earths with alternate Nexi of Realities have been seen on other Earths in the past. At the very least, alternate Man-Things with presumably similar histories have been seen. 

-Sean

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 12:37 am    
By Col_Fury

Wouldn't there have to be a Nexus in every reality? If there was only one, where would it go? Why else would Man-Thing guard it, if it didn't go anywhere? There had to be one where Howard the Duck came from, to appear in & meet Man-Thing.(written by Gerber) Howard wasn't from 616, he moved here. So if there's a Nexus in Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1(written by Gerber) that would hold up, seeing as there's one in every reality, not only 616.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 07:59 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
That's not really an analysis, it's just a list of names. 
<<<

To be fair, the message was originally posted in the Marvel Universe forum, and I moved it here, because I couldn't understand the purpose of it being in the main Forum. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 10:15 am 
By Darci

I believe the "guy who led the coup against throw Gobachev" was Sergei Ahkromeyev 
Darci

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 02:26 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

Ombu-Doksi visits each of the historical figures and gives them their ideas. Hitler in 1918 is recovering from mustard gad in WWI at the time. Ombu-Doksi trips Moses so he breaks the tablets, etc.

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 06:16 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

SUBURBAN JERSEY... was a Marvel comic, to be fair, albeit a terribly obscure one, so if the book contains references to Marvel Universe paraphernalia such as the Nexus, it would seem reasonable to presume that it's canon. Sure, it's a weird book, but then so is HOWARD THE DUCK. 

Having said that, with the possible exception of Hitler, there wouldn't seem to be anyone in this book who's appeared often enough to merit a listing, would there?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 07:00 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
SUBURBAN JERSEY... was a Marvel comic, to be fair, albeit a terribly obscure one, so if the book contains references to Marvel Universe paraphernalia such as the Nexus, it would seem reasonable to presume that it's canon. Sure, it's a weird book, but then so is HOWARD THE DUCK. 
<<<

The presence of the Nexus confirms it as occurring in a version of the Marvel Universe, though not necessarily Earth-616. Presumably the story does in fact occur on Earth-616, unless evidence in the story (or in-house ads or other material) suggests otherwise. Having never even seen the book myself, I wouldn't know, but if the Nexus is referenced than it probably is Earth-616; there's no reason to say that it occurred out of continuity unless there's evidence against its inclusion. 


Quote: 
>>>
Having said that, with the possible exception of Hitler, there wouldn't seem to be anyone in this book who's appeared often enough to merit a listing, would there? 
<<<

I would imagine that the title characters of any book that's included in the MCP ought to get their own entries, even if was a one-shot that was never referenced elsewhere. If the antagonist (or whoever/whatever Ombu-Doski is) was really as influential as is being suggested, then he(?) probably ought to get an entry as well. 

-Sean

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 02:38 am    
By JLH

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
I would imagine that the title characters of any book that's included in the MCP ought to get their own entries, even if was a one-shot that was never referenced elsewhere.  
<<<

Tell that to the members of Damage Control! 

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 12:52 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

Ombu-Doksi is female. She started as a lemur that wouldn't die and kept evolving with the times into some sort of demon. She was killed (supposedly) in the first issue, and her remains were identified as those of a lemur.

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Posted: 29 Aug 2005 12:54 pm    Post subject: title characters
By scottandrewhutchins

Nordhoff, Holly 
Yakamura, Midge 
Pollack, Phyllis 
Sensei Atilla/Melba Slotnik

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Thread 63

Posted: 31 Aug 2005 07:03 am    Post subject: Fury of SHIELD #1-4
By Col_Fury

A fun series, well written, but sweet lord the art is awful! My eyes still hurt. It was very difficult at times trying to decipher which characters were which, and at times, just what exactly was going on. All the men were bloated(well, muscular I guess) & the only way you could tell the difference was who was wearing the eye-patch. The difference between Kitty & Lockhart? I couldnt tell you. Oh, one had a tattoo. Sometimes. Which arm? It depends on the panel . At least Val has recognizable hair. Oh why oh why couldnt Chaykin have drawn it himself? It would have been so beautiful 

Fury of SHIELD #1 
Hell Hath No Fury pt. 1 
W: Howard Chaykin 
D: Corky Lehmkuhl 
Published: April, 1995 

Appearances: Col. Nick Fury, Contessa Valentina Allegro De La Fontaine(I love that name), Scorpio III(Mikel Fury), Tony Stark(Iron Man), Namor, Beck Lockhart, Karl Kraus, Beth Kraus, Melanie Kraus(Kitty Drake), Simon Mycroft, Tex, Jinx, Kildare, Gillespie.(out of these last four, Im not sure which is which. Ira & Dave are two first names given, but I cant tell which last names theyre connected to. Ira has a scar on his face, & neither is the read-headed guy) 

Analysis: 
Pg. 1-5: Furys on an assignment to liberate a microchip from Kraus Techmatrix. Nick is attacked by 2 Hydra agents who work for Kraus. A third person gets the chip, everyone goes their separate ways. 
Pg. 6-7: Later that evening, Karl Kraus is throwing a party. Tony Stark(working for SHIELD) & Namor(not working for SHIELD) are there; they are introduced to Beth Kraus, Karls wife. Kitty Drake is there with Simon Mycroft. Karl Kraus mentions a break-in by Nick Fury at his warehouse earlier that day. 
Pg. 8-9: Fury & Val are watching the party through Tonys eye-camera. Kitty slips Kraus a note. Nick & Val are researching tonights screw-up. 
Pg. 10: Lockhart tells Nick that he needs to quit smoking, or the United Nations will pull their funding due to health insurance costs. 
Pg. 11-14: The next day, noon: Nick is at a Smoke Stoppers Anonymous meeting. Mikel Fury shows up! They start talking & get kicked out of the SSA meeting. Nick mentions that he hasnt heard from him since Carpasia. Mikel gives us a FlashBack explaining why hes no longer President of Carpasia. FB is from pg13pn4-pg14. 
Pg. 15: Back at SHIELD, Nick makes Scorpio a SHIELD agent, against Vals protests. Nick checks in on his surveillance of Kraus. 
Pg. 16-17: Kraus is having lunch with Kitty Drake, she asks him about Hydra. Beth(Mrs. Kraus) shows up, Kitty leaves. 
Pg. 18: Iron Man is giving SHIELD new surveillance equipment. A break-in is reported at Polydyne, Nick & Scorpio go to check it out. 
Pg. 19-22: Nick & Scorpio arrive at the break-in, a fight starts to be continued! 

Pg. 1-10 are all one day, pg. 11-22 are the next. The day change is a full page break, the FlashBack is between panels, as noted. 

Fury of SHIELD #2 
Hell Hath No Fury pt. 2 
W: Howard Chaykin 
D: Corky Lehmkuhl 
Published: May, 1995 

Appearances: Col. Nick Fury, Contessa Valentina Allegro De La Fontaine, Scorpio III(Mikel Fury), Iron Man(Tony Stark), Beck Lockhart, Karl Kraus, Melanie Kraus(Kitty Drake), Simon Mycroft, Tex, Jinx, Kildare, Gillespie. 

Analysis: 
Pg.1-4: Picks up from last issue; Nick & Scorpio finish the fight, Nick tells Scorpio to stop calling him Dad. 
Pg. 5: Kitty arrives at Simon Mycrofts place, revealed as the third person from issue 1. They talk about their plan to oust Kraus from Hydra NY. 
Pg. 6: Some time later, no more than a few days. Nick, Val, Lockhart, & Scorpio assess the current situation. Nick calls Tony Stark for help, mentions its the second time in a week. 
Pg. 7: Kraus is upset that so many things are being stolen from his warehouses. He sends out 4 Hydra agents after Fury & Kitty.(2 each) 
Pg. 8: Iron Man is following Kitty Drake, whos entering a restaurant. 
Pg. 9-16: Nick arrives at the restaurant shortly after Kitty does & starts to ask her questions, but theyre interrupted by Hydra agents. They fight! Scorpio & Lockhart show up, then Iron Man. The fight is over, Hydra agents captured, Kitty escapes. 
Pg. 17-18: Kitty goes to Kraus place from the fight at the restaurant, Nick is surveying her while researching her past. Nick puts 2 & 2 together... 
Pg. 19-21: Kitty is Kraus ex-wife! Her real name is Melanie Kraus, he married her for her familys Hydra contacts. When her father died, he divorced her. She decided to change her name & lose 300 lbs, while Kraus was moving up in Hydra & re-marrying.(that would make Beth wife #2) This FlashBack goes from pg19-pg20pn4. Kitty then threatens Kraus with the bomb Mycroft made from all of the stolen components. 

Pg.1-5 are all the same day as the second day in issue 1, pg. 6-21 are all one day, a few days after pg. 5. 

Fury of SHIELD #3 
Hell Hath No Fury pt. 3 
W: Howard Chaykin 
D: Corky Lehmkuhl 
Published: June, 1995 

Appearances: Col. Nick Fury, Contessa Valentina Allegro De La Fontaine, Scorpio III(Mikel Fury), Iron Man(Tony Stark), Beck Lockhart, Karl Kraus, Beth Kraus, Melanie Kraus(Kitty Drake), Simon Mycroft. 

Analysis: 
Pg.1-2: Picks up from last issue; Kitty is threatening Kraus. 
Pg. 3: Nick, Scorpio, Iron Man, & Lockhart are in a helicopter looking for Kitty. Theyre acting quickly because she has a bomb. 
Pg. 4: Kraus decides to handle this without the rest of Hydras help. 
Pg. 5-6: Kraus goes home, gets yelled at by his wife. While shes throwing things at him, the phone rings. Its Fury & he wants to meet. 
Pg. 7: Nick & Kraus meet, they decide to work together. They get in Furys van. 
Pg. 8-9: Kitty reveals to Simon exactly how far shes willing to go with the plan. 
Pg. 10-11: Nick & Kraus are driving in the van, tracking Kitty. 
Pg. 12-21: Nick & Kraus show up at Mycrofts place, where Kitty is. A fight starts, which turns into a chase. Theres more fighting, which ends with Mycrofts capture, & Kitty & Kraus killing each other. Nick recovers the bomb when Val & Lockhart show up on motorcycles. 
Pg. 22: Nick suggests they all take a break, & that hell show Scorpio around Nicks old neighborhood. 

This issue all happens in one day, the same day as pg. 6-21 of issue 2. 

Fury of SHIELD #4 
Town Without Pity 
W: Howard Chaykin 
D: Corky Lehmkuhl 
Published: July, 1995 

Appearance: Col. Nick Fury, Contessa Valentina Allegro De La Fontaine, Scorpio III(Mikel Fury), Beck Lockhart, Jake Fury(in fb), Firefox, Nathan Spanier. 

Analysis: 
Pg. 1-4: Nick is showing Scorpio around his old neighborhood. Nick tells Scorpio a story of he & his brother Jake screwing around as kids. FlashBack runs pg2pn2-pg3. 
Pg. 5-7: Nick & Scorpio walk into a gang fight. 
Pg. 8: Nick asks a pizza guy whats been going on in the neighborhood lately. 
Pg. 9: Nick & Scorpio run into Nathan Spanier, someone that Nick knows from the service. 
Pg. 10-15: Nick & Scorpio get some guns & stuff, then infiltrate the gang war. Theyre knocked unconscious. 
Pg. 16-21: They wake up in a cage, & find out that Spanier is working with Firefox, the Soviet mutant hunter, and theyre funding both sides of the gang war. Nick & Scorpio get free, start a fight, & win. 
Pg. 22: We find out that Val & Beck(Lockhart, she finally has a first name!) spent the weekend at a womens resort doing aerobics, which they didnt enjoy very much. Nick decides that he wont quit smoking, THE END! 

Pg. 1-21 are all on the same day, pg. 22 is a different day. Its revealed that the break Nick suggested at the end of last issue lasted the weekend, so theres at least 1 day, 2 days at most between pg. 21 & 22. Day breaks are full page breaks, FB is as noted above. 

References: 
Aside from the time and day references, theres not much in this series to place it in the Marvel Universe aside from Scorpio Rising. However, in Captain America 440 there is a reference to this series. Nick mentions his problems with Hydra & Kitty, and that Lockhart would be upset if she saw him smoking, which firmly places CA 440 between pages 5 & 6 of issue 2 of this series. 

I'll suggest the abbreviation FOS. 

I have no idea if Firefox is the same character that later appeared in Punisher vol. 3, I don't own those books. If anyone can verify this, his listing would look like this: 

Firefox/Grigori Andreivitch 
*SSS 
*FOS 4 
PUN3 5 
PUN3 6 
PUN3 9 
PUN3 10 

If it's not the same character, than ignore that. -edit: It is the same character, thanks JLH & Sean! edit- Now for some characters that only appeared in these books: 

Kraus, Karl 
FOS 2-FB pg19-pg20pn4 
FOS 1 
FOS 2 
FOS 3 

Kraus, Melanie/Kitty Drake 
FOS 2-FB pg19-pg20pn4 
FOS 1 
FOS 2 
FOS 3 

Kraus, Beth 
FOS 1 
FOS 3 

Mycroft, Simon 
FOS 1 
FOS 2 
FOS 3 

As far as Tex, Jinx, Kildare, & Gillespie, they all only appeared in FOS 1 & 2. Seeing as how I can't tell which character is which, I just lumped them together. 

Lockhart finally has a first name, so her listing should be updated, & here's some more appearances for her: 

Lockhart, Beck 
*FOS 1 
*FOS 2 
*FOS 3 
*FOS 4 
*GR3 65 
DE: O 

As long as we're on SHIELD agents... 

De La Fontaine, Contessa Valentina Allegro 
CA 439 
*FOS 1 
*FOS 2 
*FOS 3 
*FOS 4 
DE: O 

Fury, Col. Nicholas "Nick" Joseph 
WARM 17 
A 385 
*FOS 1 
*FOS 2 -pg5 
CA 440 
WARM 17-BTS 
*FOS 2 pg6- 
*FOS 3 
*FOS 4 
GR3 57 
GR3 58 
GR3 60 
GR3 61 
GR3 62 
GR3 64 
**GR3 65 -pg6 
PUN2 104 
PWJ 80 
DE:A 
DD 344 
**GR3 65 pg7- 
H2 433 

There's a 3 week gap in GR3 65, part of which takes place before, part of which is after those Punisher, Double Edge, & DD issues, as stated in GR3 65. Only Nick Fury is in both parts,(as far as this is concerned) so I've noted where the split should go. 

Scorpio III/Mikel Fury 
W/NF 
-Scorpio Rising, most likely- 
*FOS 1-FB pg13pn4-pg14 
*FOS 1 
*FOS 2 
*FOS 3 
*FOS 4 
DD 344 
GR3 65 
DE: O 

And as long as we're in the Fury family tree... 

Scorpio/Jacob "Jake" Fury 
ST 159-FB 
*FOS 4-FB pg2pn2-pg3 
W/NF-FB 

Fury, Dawn 
*ST 159-FB 
H2 434 

In placing Jake's FB I re-read ST 159, & noticed that Dawn was in the ST FB, also. It's not currently listed under her chronology. And now for the rest: 

Iron Man/Tony Stark 
IM 319 
*FOS 1 
*FOS 2 
*FOS 3 
FW 15 
H2 434 

Sub-Mariner/Namor Mackenzie 
FF 402 
AR 2 
*FOS 1 
FFY 11/2 

And that about does it. Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

Last edited by Col_Fury on 31 Aug 2005 05:26 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 07:32 am    
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote: 
I have no idea if Firefox is the same character that later appeared in Punisher vol. 3, I don't own those books. If anyone can verify this, his listing would look like this: 

Firefox 
*FOS 4 
PUN3 5 
PUN3 6 
PUN3 9 
PUN3 10 


Sounds like it, since both were Russian assassins. Despite getting blown up (mostly) in Pun3 10, he showed up in the recent Hawkeye series (with some cybernetic additions). Just to be sure, does THIS look like the guy? 

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/65896665212.5.gif

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 07:39 am    
By Col_Fury

Oh, yeah. That's him all right. Thanks, JLH!
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 04:50 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Firefox first appeared in the Soviet Super Soldiers one-shot. His real name is given as Grigori Andreivitch. 

-Sean

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 05:28 pm    
By Col_Fury

I've edited Firefox's entry above, thanks Sean!
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Thread 64

Posted: 21 Jul 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: where do superheros live?
By moosekid

I am currenty writing a quiz for a magazine about which cartoon charators live where. Its hard to find exact addresses can anyone help?

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Posted: 21 Jul 2005 04:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Moosekid, 

This has nothing to do with chronology, so it's been moved to Chat.

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Posted: 22 Jul 2005 06:06 am    
By jephyork

Which characters are you looking for information about? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Aug 2005 11:36 pm    
By Batai

Marvel Characters, although not exclusively... 

For some freakish coincidence typically live in the Greater New York area. 

Some have often attributed this to the fact that Marvel headquarters is in Manhattan, others say it's merely because New York is so big, statistically it is likely to have more mutants. 

Name a specific mutant and I (we) may be able to narrow it down for you. 
Also, consider checking out the Marval Atlas Project. 
(Similar name, yet unaffiliated)
_________________
Marvel Database Project

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Thread 65

Posted: 11 Jun 2005 05:12 pm    Post subject: Members Wanted
By Connell

Just wanted to let Marvel fans know about the Marvel Megasite. A free website for Marvel lovers everywhere. We have message boards, Marvel News, A Live Chat Room, Virtual Jean Grey & more. So check it out True Believers. http://www.MarvelMegasite.com Note: we have now added this site to our web links. 
_________________
Visit The Marvel Megasite http://www.MarvelMegasite.com

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Posted: 11 Jun 2005 11:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, I'll bite: what the HELL is "Virtual Jean Grey"? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 04:00 am    
By shandrakor

There goes jeph, asking the questions the rest of us are too scared to learn the answers to.

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 07:36 am    
By Connell

It's an interactive Artificial Intelligence Bot. check it out. 
_________________
Visit The Marvel Megasite http://www.MarvelMegasite.com

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Posted: 12 Jun 2005 11:56 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Does she speak to us from the "White Hot Room"? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 06:54 pm    
By Batai

Virtual Jean Grey is actually a program you can download free and customize the look, guy or girl, clothes customizable too. You program what you want them to say... 

It is actually intended as a 'customer service' tool for larger companies. 
I really liked it when I saw it... The Marvel Mega Site has some cool stuff. I also recommend checking out the site...
_________________
Marvel Database Project

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Thread 66

Posted: 19 Aug 2005 07:01 am    Post subject: House of M problem
By SKleefeld
Director

Okay, I have to rant about this somewhere... 

In House of M it's been established that this new world that we're seeing is really just an elaborate illusion. What we're seeing is what what Magneto and/or Wanda want us to see. Behind the curtain, though, things haven't really changed. 

This is shown in several ways. In The Pulse crossover, Hawkeye holds up a newspaper that looks entirely different to him than it does to Kat Farrell. It's further implied in New Thunderbolts when we see Atlas and Captain Marvel torn between the two realities. It's further suggested with the inclusion of Jen Walters in HoM #5 since she's recruited as a seemingly plain human, but shows up later in her Hulked-out form. (One could argue that she has the ability to switch back and forth at will, but in a society that puts little value on "normal" humans -- coupled with the fact that Jen's always liked being She-Hulk -- this seems unlikely.) 

So once shown that reality has not actually been altered but it was only their perception of it, wouldn't Steve Rogers still be a strong, virile young man? Wouldn't the old age be just an illusion? Once Layla "zapped" him with a reality check, wouldn't he be able to look and act like Captain America? 

I can usually accept when a writer hasn't done his homework and accidentally tripped over pre-existing continuity, but I really hate it when they can't even keep their own continuity straight in their own book! That's just poor writing.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 11:07 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, notice that we see Layla "zap" Captain America, but we don't see the results of that zap. The heroes were already walking away when she zapped him...maybe he'll show up later in the miniseries, young and healthy...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 02:49 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

No, we see Layla's eyes light up. That was shown on the previous two pages as what precedes her powers being used. You'll note that it's the recipient's eyes that light up when they're zapped by her in all the previous appearances. 

Admittedly, this goes back to a lack of evidence on the issue. Maybe we just don't see Cap get his health/youth back. But Emma distinctly addresses the issue in a manner that is decidedly inconsistent with everything else we've seen so far. Even if she has Layla zap Cap behind-the-scenes as a kind of ace in the hole, there were a crudload of heroes there; it's hard to imagine one of them not seeing something happen and commenting on it. And if they were all in on said ace, why lie to Layla about it? And why let Cap try to sort through it all on his own? 

Bendis can write well sometimes, but sometimes he just pisses me off. 

Sorry, just ranting.

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Thread 67

Posted: 23 Aug 2005 08:35 pm    Post subject: Favorite Characters: Thor
By ADMINISTRATOR

Preview the Thor image, going up with the next update. 


watching: nancy grace

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 12:41 am    
By JLH

That pic could use some Masterworks remasterworking.

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 05:56 am    
By Ant-Man

Brightening and contrast can help a little... 

Great shot...which issue is that from?
_________________
-Brian Cook-

Last edited by Ant-Man on 24 Aug 2005 08:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 07:40 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yeah, but see, I don't like the Masterworks, or fiddling with the brightness and contrast. 

I prefer the nostalgia that the yellowed page brings. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 07:41 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
Great shot...which issue is that from? 
<<<

JIM 124 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 07:50 am    
By Ant-Man

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I prefer the nostalgia that the yellowed page brings. 
<<<

Good point. If you're trying to capture the nostalgic feel, then the yellowing certainly accomplises that. 

Speaking of aging paper, does anyone else get a strange vinegar smell from the pages in their mid-80s books? Maybe it's time I changed my bags!
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 09:57 am    
By JLH

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
Speaking of aging paper, does anyone else get a strange vinegar smell from the pages in their mid-80s books? Maybe it's time I changed my bags! 
<<<

Or you should keep your pets away from them... 
