	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Missing Nick Fury books?
2. Captain America note
3. X '97 and X62-65 - corrections
4. psylocke
5. Fury, Nick LMD II
6. The Futurians, by Dave Cockrum
7. rachel summers
8. Moira in M/CP 22/3 (& M/CP 23/2)
9. Heroes Reborn characters
10. Galactus in DD 37
11. 4 #21
12. WAR MACHINE question & name entry
13. Amphibius - X:HY 4
14. Thor and Loki appearances in Venus (Golden Age) issues
15. Placement Clues for Amazing Fantasy
16. Helmut Zemo and John Watkins III
17. SECOND TRIMESTER?!?!?
18. Canonicity of Marvel Swimsuit Issues
19. Kain
20. The appearance of the Supreme Intelligence on ULCM 1
21. Note on Nighthawk
22. Alpha Flight (Volume 1) Corrections
23. Spidey's identity and the FF
24. A4 #10 and the Sentry's past (spoilers!)
25. Mutant Massacre problem!
26. real people
27. Beta Ray Bill in Thor #355
28. Daredevil in Secret War
29. Seaweed Man appearance missing
30. Passage of time during pregnancy in Marvel Universe
31. Chronology of President/Prime Minister/Royalty
32. Steeltown rockers canon?
33. MARSTON, SYLVESTER "SNAKE"
34. Freedom Force Omissions

	Ultimate Universe Forum
35. Ultimates v.2 #7 - help?

	Issue Analysis Forum
36. Wolverine/Nick Fury: Scorpio Rising
37. M/CP 119/3 & 120/3: Constrictor
38. Katrina damage
39. M/CP 119/4: Wonder Man
40. Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #5
41. Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #11
42. Chronology Review for Arana: Heart of the Spider #1-6
43. M/CP 120/4: Spider-Man
44. M/CP 119/2-122/2: Ghost Rider/Cloak & Dagger
45. Post subject: M/CP 121/3: Mirage
46. Chronology Review for Daredevil: Father #2
47. M/CP 121/4: Andromeda
48. M/CP 122/4: Knights of Pendragon
49. M/CP 122/3: Speedball
50. M/CP 117-122: Wolverine/Venom
51. M/CP 123/4: Master Man
52. Spellbinders 1-6
53. TTA 70-74 (Namor stories)
54. Chronology Review for DD2 #71-75:
55. TTA 75-79 (Namor stories)

	Chat Forum
56. Wha...huh?
57. What's Coming from Marvel in November:
58. Who Is The Sentry





Thread 1

Posted: 15 Aug 2005 01:45 am    Post subject: Missing Nick Fury books?
By Col_Fury

I was browsing around & couldn't find the following books listed: 

Fury/Black Widow: Death Duty 
Captain Amercia/Nick Fury: Blood Truce 
Fury of SHIELD 1-4 
Captain America/Nick Fury: the Otherworld War 
Fury(MAX) 1-6 

Death Duty & Blood Truce were both Prestige Format/Graphic Novels, both published in Feb 1995, Fury of SHIELD was April-July 1995, Otherworld War was Oct 2001, & Fury(MAX) 1-6 was Nov 2001-April 2002. 

I'm assuming Fury(MAX) 1-6 just hasn't made it in yet, & that Otherworld War is waiting for Sgt Fury & his Howling Commandoes, seeing as it's set during WWII. However, Death Duty, Blood Truce, & Fury of SHIELD 1-4 all came out shortly before he was 'killed' by the Punisher in Double Edge: Omega, which is listed. Are these books part of the Gap? If so, I'd be happy to analyse them, being Nick Fury books and all.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 04:45 am    
By Enda80

Death Duty presents a tricky case. I refer you to Night Raven's entry for info. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nhtraven.htm

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 06:16 am    
By jephyork
Director

Did you READ the Max Fury series? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 06:55 am    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
Did you READ the Max Fury series?  
<<<

Well, it had been almost 3 & 1/2 years.... 
I took a quick glance at issues 1 & 6, & I see your point. Besides being, uhmm... vulgar... it doesn't quite fit. No more helicarrier? It's almost a 'the End' type book, without saying 'the End' on the cover. All right, the MAX Fury book is non-cannon. Strike it from the list. 

As far as Death Duty goes, neither Night Raven nor Nocturne(at least this Nocturne) has an entry in the MCP. From the link provided, it looks as though Death Duty was his last appearance in any case, tricky or not. 

So what about the rest?
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 09:50 am    
By garbonzo

Although the Fury that appears in the recent Mother Russia Arc of Punisher bears a striking resemblance to teh Fury from the MAX miniseries. I'm not saying the MAX mini is canon, but it is looking a lot closer to recent protrayals. 
garbonzo

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 06:29 am    
By Enda80

A few of Night Raven's previous adventures were referenced in Death Duty. 

fb to Night Raven's boyhood, his time in WWI 

(Mighty World of Marvel#14-16. "Pathology") encounter with Angela Cleaver. 

(Mighty World of Marvel#10, 11. "All the World's a Stage") Night Raven versus Yi Yang in Wisconsin. 

(Captain Britain vol 2 #10-12. "Mid-summer Madness") Yi Yang sets up Night Raven with a new identity. 

A fb also shows Yi Yang finding one of the Snow Leopards, outcasts from Phobos' school in Siberia. 


http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/yiyang.htm by the way states 
(Secret War: From the Files of Nick Fury - BTS) - Yi Yang had a conflict with Daisy Johnson. 


By the way, Nick Fury appears in less than seven pages of this one-shot! Of course, that makes room for Night Raven. 


Angela Cleaver creates a problem, as stated below: 

Topical meets Real time meets Marvel time and the problems begin. .........His encounters with Angela Cleaver and TRACE are supposed to have taken place in real time, in 1984. That's fine. Then the Death Duty story pulls in modern era characters, like Nick Fury, the Black Widow, and SHIELD. Anyhoo, it will be some time before Real Time stretches Angela's age too far for the story to make sense (as of 2002, she's about 60 years old, 10 years older than when the Death Duty took place), 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/clvang.htm

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 08:09 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/yiyang.htm by the way states 
(Secret War: From the Files of Nick Fury - BTS) - Yi Yang had a conflict with Daisy Johnson. 
<<<

Until we can clear up the discrepancy with the BTS listing for Dracula in FF 30, I don't really trust BTS listings from the Appendix. Please don't refer to BTS listings from the Appendix. And be aware that *nothing* will be added here from the Appendix, or any other site, unless it's comfirmed in the books themselves. 


watching: cnn

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 04:49 pm    
By Col_Fury

I'll go ahead & do an analysis of these books, then.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 12:21 am    
By Col_Fury

While working on these books, I noticed that Wolverine/Nick Fury: Scorpio Rising is also missing. It was published in Oct, 1994, so I'm assuming it's also part of the gap. Has this book already been called, or should I add it to my list? I'd be happy to provide an analysis, if needed.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 01 Sep 2005 02:49 am    
By Col_Fury

I did an analysis for Scorpio Rising after seeing how straight forward the story was. It almost took me longer just to find chronology placements than the analysis itself! Flipping through mid-90s X-books & cross-referencing GW Bridge, Gideon, & Nick Fury appearances... ultimately irrelevant, but required nontheless I suppose. But I digress... 

I'm officially holding off on Otherworld War, seeing as how it's tied to Sgt Fury. I'm going to get caught up on reading current comics before jumping into analysing Marvel Comics Presents,(that, & my vacation's over. Not as much spare time...) and hopefully by then we'll know how that's going to be split up. 
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Thread 2

Posted: 04 Sep 2005 01:31 pm    Post subject: Captain America note
By Enda80

TOS 72/2-FB 
TOS 79/2-FB 
H2 284 
CA:SL2 12-FB 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78 
CA@ 13-FB 
CA:SL2 7 
CA:SL2 12-FB 
CA:SL2 12-FB 

Captain America Comics 78 should be removed, as that was actually the imposter Cap fo the 1950's.

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Thread 3

Posted: 05 Sep 2005 05:06 pm    Post subject: X '97 and X62-65 - corrections
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Cyclops doesn't seem to have a listing for this book. To fit with the listings of the other X-Men, it ought to be listed after XM '96/2 and before XM 25. 

Also, I see that we have a listing for a Bludgeon II who appears in X 62-63, UX 383 and XX 40-43. This should be split into two listings - the character in X 62-63 is a cyborg ninja with gravity powers, while the other entries belong to a chap with a club who's in a double-act called "Bludgeon & Cudgel." 

Oh, and Professor X's listing has him appearing in X-MEN #-1 between ONSLAUGHT: EPILOGUE and X 65, which must be a rogue entry.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 4

Posted: 06 Sep 2005 01:11 pm    Post subject: psylocke
By poetdowns

I looked up Psylocke and her chronology ends at XX-4, where she dies. 
Anyone know where she came back, and where she's been since? 

thanks, 
Poet

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 02:01 pm    
By Somebody

UXM455, UXM.

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Thread 5

Posted: 31 Aug 2005 01:37 am    Post subject: Fury, Nick LMD II
By Col_Fury

H2 434 depicted Nick Fury's funeral, which showed Nick's 'body' in his casket. Of course, this was later revealed as a LMD. This issue is currently missing from it's chronology. So... 

Fury, Nick LMD II 
DE:O 
*H2 434 
F/A 1
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 12:45 am    
By Col_Fury

Nick Fury vs. SHIELD #3 revealed that Nick's appearance in Iron Man #227 was an LMD, not Nick himself. I'm assuming the same LMD is shown in NFV.S #3, being 'interrogated,' then sent to meet Tony Stark.(this issue reveals the LMD in IM 227, so it makes sense) I'll suggest that this LMD should be labeled as #2, & the LMD that was killed by the Punisher should be relabeled as #3. 

Fury, Nick LMD II 
*IM 227 
*NFV.S 3 

Should Nick get a BTS notation for IM 227 in his chronology? His LMD from Defenders is easy enough to place, seeing that Nick himself appeared in DEF 51, but Nick doesn't appear in IM 227. Maybe a LMD notation?
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 07:13 am    
By John Simons

It sounds like you haven't actually read Nick Fury vs. SHIELD#3. Can I ask how you reached your conclusions? 

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Nick Fury vs. SHIELD #3 revealed that Nick's appearance in Iron Man #227 was an LMD, not Nick himself.  
<<<

That's not exactly true. The real Fury tells Stark that he (Stark) encountered an imposter, but it would be a educated guess to assume it was an LMD. This is not explicitly stated. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm assuming the same LMD is shown in NFV.S #3, being 'interrogated,' then sent to meet Tony Stark.(this issue reveals the LMD in IM 227, so it makes sense)  
<<<

...So, you're just guessing then? 
The scene you're referring to takes place on page 31 and is a conversation between Tony Stark and the real Nick Fury. 

Tony: "Fury, I've had problems with SHIELD before. Do you remember when you and your stormtroopers tried to take my Iron Man armor away?" 

Nick: "What are you talkin' about?" 

Tony: "You're denying your involvement...?" 

Nick: "You saw someone. It just wasn't me. It just shows things have been getting away from me for a long time now." 

I'm not even 100% sure if this conversation is referring to Iron Man #227. In that issue, Fury is not aware that Stark and Iron Man are the same person, so it isn't accurate to say SHIELD is trying to take the armor from Tony. Nick orders Tony to turn over Iron Man (whom he believes is a seperate person) because of Shellhead's actions during the armor wars. 

If this is a reference to IM 227, I'm actually not sure why Harras had such a problem with it that he felt the need to retcon it. If someone as powerful as Iron Man turned rogue, it would certainly make sense that Fury would try to arrest him. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'll suggest that this LMD should be labeled as #2, & the LMD that was killed by the Punisher should be relabeled as #3. 
<<<

I'll bet a dozen or more Nick Fury LMDs have appeared over the years. Should they all get seperate entries in the MCP? I'm not arguing that they shouldn't, mind you, I'm just asking the question. 


Quote: 
>>>
Should Nick get a BTS notation for IM 227 in his chronology? 
<<<

Only if the imposter was sent by him and/or under his orders/control. Since the conversation in NFV.S 3 reveals that it wasn't, I would have to say no.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 05:08 pm    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
Can I ask how you reached your conclusions? 
<<<

Sure. 


Quote: 
>>>
The real Fury tells Stark that he (Stark) encountered an imposter, but it would be a educated guess to assume it was an LMD. This is not explicitly stated.  
<<<

It's not spelled out that it was a LMD, but what other kinds of imposters has SHIELD used? Isn't that what SHIELD used LMDs for? 


Quote: 
>>
Quote: 
>>
I'm assuming the same LMD is shown in NFV.S #3, being 'interrogated,' then sent to meet Tony Stark.(this issue reveals the LMD in IM 227, so it makes sense) 
<<<

...So, you're just guessing then? 

The scene you're referring to takes place on page 31 and is a conversation between Tony Stark and the real Nick Fury. 
<<<

I'm guessing that it's the same LMD that was in IM 227 & NFV.S 3. That makes sense to me, because this issue reveals that it wasn't really Nick in IM 227. This issue also shows that SHIELD is using a LMD to fool Tony again, shown in the conversation on pg. 35: 
Tony: "What are you doing here? You're a wanted man...etc...I could end up in prison!" 
A SHIELD agents comments that Stark must not have had contact with the real Fury, mission accomplished, etc, tells the LMD to terminate the session. 
Fury LMD: "Don't send your buddy Iron Man after me...etc" 
Tony in thought:"SHIELD sent an LMD! But why?" 
This & the conversation you mentioned established that SHIELD doesn't know who Iron Man is, but the real Fury does. 


Quote: 
>>>
If this is a reference to IM 227, I'm actually not sure why Harras had such a problem with it that he felt the need to retcon it. 
<<<

IM 227 was published in Feb of 88, NFV.S started in June of 88. It was either a convenient recent story to reference, or Harras did have a problem with it. Fury knew Thor's secret identity,(seen in Simonson's early Thor issues) maybe Harras just liked that Fury knew who everybody really was in the Marvel Universe. IM 227 contradicted this, so he may have felt the need to retcon it. It also further established that SHIELD had gotten out of Nick's control, which was a major plot point of the series. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'll bet a dozen or more Nick Fury LMDs have appeared over the years. Should they all get seperate entries in the MCP? 
<<<

Sure. And I would say the same would go for Doombots impersonating Dr. Doom, if a later story shows that it wasn't the actual character. If someone is browsing the MCP & can't find say, Defenders 47 under Nick's chronology, they would wonder why that isn't listed.(assuming that they only own DEF 47, & not DEF 51) But there's an LMD listing, so that person's question is answered. Now if it's just an LMD in a stasis tube, with the real Fury there, I don't think that should be listed. 

Thanks for the feedback!
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 05:11 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
If someone is browsing the MCP & can't find say, Defenders 47 under Nick's chronology, they would wonder why that isn't listed. 
<<<

That's probably true, but there's an awful lot in the MCP which might be baffling without annotations. While there might be a case for footnoting the occasional entry to explain that the character in book X isn't the real one after all, creating a separate entry for every duplicate would just clutter things up, especially if the duplicates don't otherwise merit a listing.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 05:21 pm    
By Enda80

Hoskin did an entry on the Deltite addressing these things. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/deltiteshield.htm

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 08:28 pm    
By ShadZ

John Simons wrote: 

I'll bet a dozen or more Nick Fury LMDs have appeared over the years. Should they all get seperate entries in the MCP? I'm not arguing that they shouldn't, mind you, I'm just asking the question. 
 


I'd say no. A functional, working Nick Fury LMD is no more a character in the story than Iron Man's right boot or Dr. Strange's cloak. It has a sophisticated artificial intellegence that allows it to (usually) predect what Nick Fury would do in a certian situation and then do the same, but it is not a sentient being (or even an animal). The few Nick Fury LMDs who go haywire and achieve sentience and transcend their programming should be in the MCP, but not the run-of-the-mill models. 

Just my two cents...
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 11:37 pm    
By John Simons

Okay, now I see. I'm not sure if your second explanation was clearer or I was just too tired to think when I read your first post, but clearly we were talking about two different Stark/Fury scenes in two different sections of NFV.S 3. Sorry bout that. 

Now that I see the point you were trying to make, I agree connecting the LMDs would make sense. I'm just not sure there's enough evidence to go ahead and link those appearences in the MCP. 

I hadn't realized that IM 227 and NFV.S 3 were published in such a small timeframe. Doesn't leave much time for Fury to have learned Iron Man's ID, does it? Maybe that's why Harras retconned the Fury Armor wars appearence: he needed Fury to know this so he would have something to hold over Tony's head to get his aid.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Sep 2005 12:01 am    
By John Simons

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Hoskin did an entry on the Deltite addressing these things. 
<<<


Well, the plot thickens. Hoskin argues that the past story featuring the imposter (which he also says was an LMD) was IM 174 and 175, not 227. This might make more sense given Tony's line about trying to take his armor away. 

Without re-reading the entirety of Nick Fury vs. SHIELD, I'm not sure if and where the Deltite reveals that he sent a Fury LMD on this assignment. Hoskin may just be playing connect-the-dots, although since he works on those new Marvel Handbooks, this info may have found its way into canon. 

Of course, this would probably mean that the Fury in IM 227 could be the real mccoy, in which case maybe he did uncover Stark's double life in that short amount of time between Armor wars and NFV.S
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Sep 2005 05:45 am    
By Somebody

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Of course, this would probably mean that the Fury in IM 227 could be the real mccoy, in which case maybe he did uncover Stark's double life in that short amount of time between Armor wars and NFV.S 
<<<

Well there's a multi-week gap in IM231, while Stark's building the new armour. Plus, with his injuries, the replacement of IM, and the Armour Wars as motivation, there's wiggle room there. 

Still be easier to say he knew it already if it could be wangled tho.

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Posted: 07 Sep 2005 07:33 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Well, the plot thickens. Hoskin argues that the past story featuring the imposter (which he also says was an LMD) was IM 174 and 175, not 227. This might make more sense given Tony's line about trying to take his armor away. 
<<<

The stories trump theories on websites. In fact, theories on websites are so far down the line, they don't even show up on our trump list. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 07 Sep 2005 11:50 pm    
By Col_Fury

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Without re-reading the entirety of Nick Fury vs. SHIELD, I'm not sure if and where the Deltite reveals that he sent a Fury LMD on this assignment. Hoskin may just be playing connect-the-dots 
<<<

I think he's trying to connect the dots, but I'm not sure why he chose this story. In IM 174 & 175, Stark International had been bought out by Stane International, Tony was a drunken bum, & Jim Rhodes was in the armor. Nick wanted the armor technology for SHIELD use, but he was trying to get it from Stane at that point, not Stark. In these issues, Stark didn't even know where he was he was so drunk. In IM 227, Stark had control of his company back. 


Quote: 
>>>
Tony: "Fury, I've had problems with SHIELD before. Do you remember when you and your stormtroopers tried to take my Iron Man armor away?"  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Nick: "You saw someone. It just wasn't me. 
<<<

This infers that Tony was present when it happened. He was in IM 227, but he wasn't in IM 174 & 175. 

As for the Deltite, he doesn't mention specific assignments. He does however, say this on pg 27 of NFV.S 6: 
"As soon as you joined SHIELD, I ordered an LMD file opened on you. As was the reason for so many LMDs in those early days, I wished to add you to my collective consciousness." 
The Deltite was using LMDs of all kinds of people to create a personality for himself as revealed throughout this issue, but he doesn't mention any assignments he may have sent any LMDs on.(with the exception of assignments depicted in this series, ie: the order to the ESPer unit) 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Still be easier to say he knew it already if it could be wangled tho. 
<<<

Reading it in hindsight, there's some dialogue in IM 174 & 175 to suggest this: 
Fury: "With what he(Stane) might find in Stark's closet..." 
Fury to Iron Man: "Once before, you refused to trade with me."(referring to Iron Man 129*, but that was Tony who refused, not Iron Man) 
Fury in thought, after talking to Jim in the Iron Man armor: "Funny...the voice sounds like Iron Man, but what he's sayin' don't...exactly." 
Fury, after Jim screws up: "You're losin' yer touch, Shellhead!" 
Fury, after Jim saves the day: "You ain't lost yer touch, you just changed it." 

*IM 129 involved Fury buying Stark stock options, but Tony refused to trade with Fury after he obtained the controlling shares. 
-start theory-It seems to me that Fury figured out who Iron Man 'really' was either during or after IM 129, then figured out that someone else was in the Iron Man armor in IM 175. "You ain't lost yer touch, you just changed it." Which makes sense, given that Stane owned the IM armor at that point. Why would Stark work for Stane? Later in IM 200, Stark regains control of Stane International. Fury's no dummy, he probably figured that Stark got back in the armor when he got his company back.-end theory- 
Which leads us to Fury's knowledge in NFV.S 3. Of course, IM 227 contradicted this. Harras' retconning of this makes more sense to me than what Hoskin suggests. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
The stories trump theories on websites. 
<<<

I agree. Sometimes they can be a starting point for research in the books, but I wouldn't take those websites at face value. I prefer to make my own theories. 
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 06:12 am    
By Enda80

Hoskin also made a dubious statement, that Fury did not know that Strucker commanded Hydra until Strange Tales#150. 

In Marvel Universe#1, Will Fitzpatrick of the OSS briefs the Invaders on Captain Savage's run-in with Hyrda, and he specifically mentions Strucker as Hydra's commander. 

Now, why wouldn't SHIELD know Strucker led Hydra until ST#150?

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 04:31 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Because Marvel Universe #1 was written later, and contained a minor error. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 08:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I suppose SHIELD might have been aware that Strucker headed HYDRA back in the final days of World War II, but since Strange Tales #150 took place in 1995 (sigh) they might have been surprised to find out he was still alive. 

And even if it took place in 1965, they could express surprise that Strucker was *still* heading HYDRA, after twenty years. 


watching: newsnight

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Thread 6

Posted: 08 Sep 2005 05:02 am    Post subject: The Futurians, by Dave Cockrum
By Silver shadow

hi, I'd like to get some info about characters I can't find in the list : 
It's a team of super-heroes, called I think the Futurians, by Dave Cockrum, in 1983. They would have appeared in a Marvel Graphic novel. 

Thank you. 

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 10:09 am    
By BobMM

It says here that the Futurians are a creator-owned concept set in the future. If in Marvel continuity at all, one of the many potential futures like Killraven or MC2. 

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/rage/11060933461834.htm

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 01:09 pm    
By Ant-Man

They are not part of the Marvel Universe canon. 
If you enjoyed the Graphic Novel, try to get the 3 issues produced by Lodestone...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 03:38 am    
By Silver shadow

Thank you for answering, it's very nice. 

I thought that coming from a Marvel graphic novel they were automatically Marvel characters, but they seem actually to be creator-owned characters. 

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Thread 7

Posted: 06 Sep 2005 01:32 pm    Post subject: rachel summers
By poetdowns

Okay, i remember Rachel Summers from the original "Days of Future Past" storyline. Is the one today the same one from that storyline? 

Did Rachel ever die and come back in the current timeline of today? 

She's much more (i think) prominent in one of the X-books now, (apologies for my lack of memory, it's a brain thing) Uncanny, i think is the one. Anyway, i'm wondering when she became more of an active character and less of a background character. 

anon, 
Poet

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 02:01 pm    
By Somebody

Yes. 

Died Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix #4, returned Cable #82, with the AoC&P and X-Men:Phoenix series effectively removed from her personal continuity. 

Late 100s of UXM, Excalibur v1.

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 02:52 pm    
By poetdowns

Thanks.

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 08:22 am    
By Marc-Oliver Frisch

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
returned Cable #82 
<<<

That would be #86.
_________________
Marc-Oliver Frisch 
POPP'D! -- Comikado -- Supercritical 

Updated almost daily.

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 12:38 pm    
By Somebody

She first reappeared in a one-page cameo in #82, at Gaunt's feet.

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Thread 8

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:09 pm    Post subject: Moira in M/CP 22/3 (& M/CP 23/2)
By bmk88

hi, 
hm, maybe I should place it in 'Bug Reports' section as a mistake but it might be a timeline problem as well ... 
M/CP 22/3 involves Mirage & Wolfsbane placed here between WOSM@ 2 & NM 43, NM 44 for Wolsbane (which is well after UX 201) and Banshee between NM 26 & NM 46 (which is between UX 193 & UX 217) 
and it sounds OK but ... 
Moira MacTaggert is placed here between UX 168 & UX 175 which clearly objects the above. 
The story takes place during holidays as also NM 43 and Rahne is (alone) in Scotland in NM 44 which can be connected with her visit in M/CP 22/3. Besides between UX 168 & UX 175 New Mutants are involved in Nova Roma adventure (having no appearances in any of UX between those two issues but Prof.Xavier indicates placement). 
So is it the wrong placement in Moira choronology or am I missing something ? 
BTW Moira is listed in another M/CP # - 23/2 between XCALSE-BTS & XCAL 4 which is rather a mistake (?). 
In M/CP #23 I can spot her only in 1st - Cyclops - story, where she appeared with Banshee (but a little bit later). 
cheers

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Thread 9

Posted: 03 Sep 2005 04:30 am    Post subject: Heroes Reborn characters
By SeanCurtin

As I see it, the Heroes Reborn characters aren't different characters using the same names or codenames as other pre-existing characters, they're alternate reality counterparts of pre-existing characters, and ought to be treated as are similar counterparts or duplicates in terms of their MCP entries. Mutant X's Iceman isn't just listed as ICE-MAN, the Adora clone isn't listed as ADORA II, and Gambit's Infinity War doppelganger isn't listed as GAMBIT II. Likewise, (picking a random example) the HR Crimson Dynamo shouldn't be listed as CRIMSON DYNAMO VIII/PROF. ANTON VANKO II; he should be listed under CRIMSON DYNAMO/PROF. ANTON VANKO | HEROES REBORN or a similar notation. 

-Sean

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 10:25 am    
By jannepie

But their planet is now in the same universe with 616. Just on the different side of the sun. Sure, they began as an alternate reality but that's not the case anymore, at least not with anyone living on Counter-Earth.

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 10:46 am    
By BobMM

The Heroes Reborn world was never actually an "alternate reality", was it? At least, not as that phrase is usually used. I was under the impression that the entire Franklinverse existed in that blue globe that floated around with him. More like the Microverse than, say, the Squadron Supreme's world.

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 07:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, that's a good analogy. The Heroes Reborn world is and has always been a subset of Earth-616 reality. The characters that came into being when the "Franklinverse" was created are unique Earth-616 reality characters -- they should all be treated consistently, no matter how closely they may appear to replicate their non-Franklinverse counterparts. And it doesn't seem right to list Franklinverse characters who continue to appear on Counter-Earth as "...|HEROES REBORN".
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 10:03 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

It's perhaps not technically in line with how the MCP formats things, but it would give the site a bit more functionality.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 11:11 pm    
By jannepie

What about using [COUNTER-EARTH]? Or is it Counter-Earth II?

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 05:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It would be Counter-Earth II, but the original one didn't really go in for direct counterparts, so it's a largely academic distinction.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 03:29 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The original Counter-Earth had a few direct counterparts, but IIRC none of them went by the same names (Necromancer instead of Dr. Strange, for example). 

-Sean

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Thread 10

Posted: 11 Sep 2005 01:22 am    Post subject: Galactus in DD 37
By Jopili

Little correction: 

GALACTUS 
... 
T 134 
**DD 37-FB (instead of DD 37) 
FF 74 
...

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Thread 11

Posted: 21 Aug 2005 10:32 pm    Post subject: 4 #21
By Col_Fury

When did Sharon Ventura turn back into the She-Thing? The last I remember, she was in Fantastic Four during Claremont's run,(while Reed was in the Doom armor) but she was mutated like a flesh colored Hulk, no rocks, then she went to Wyatt Wingfoot's reserve. Somebody did their homework because she's in this issue wearing clothes that would suggest she's been there a while, but I missed when she re-mutated. Or maybe this happened in a untold story?
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 10:46 am    
By Somebody

Untold story.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 10:50 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

It's Aguirre-Sacasa doing only PART of his homework again. The last couple of times we saw her, she was more-Hulkish than Thing-ish and had some ill-defined problems with her mental capacity. Apparently, sometime between then and now, she "got better." 

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2005 10:01 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thanks for the help guys!
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 01:06 pm    
By meta

*bangs head against desk* 

That's not the biggest trouble with #021. The issue has flashblacks to FF #054/055 which are fairly faithful to the original story, albeit with no appearance from Wyatt Wingfoot. But then his not appearing could just mean he's wandering around off panel, and he can't be seen on the journey there as he slept in the back of the craft - mentioned in FF054. 

However with Sue talking about the meeting with T'Challa and the defeat of Klaw we're stuck back with the problem with the current run on Black Panther which messed around with this story. So now we have two current books referencing two different versions of the same story. Good editing decisions there. 

I vote we gather all copies of the current BP arc and burn them to loose the evidence.

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Posted: 24 Aug 2005 05:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

On the contrary, I'd have a bigger problem with it, if they had referenced the current Panther storyline. Recognizing the way it really happened, makes it that much easier to ignore the Panther quagmire. 

The Panther story can't work. There are too many knots to untie. 


watching: 360

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 01:13 pm    
By meta

Although now the first arc won't be in cannon, but the rest of the book will? BP I mean?

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Posted: 26 Aug 2005 04:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sounds like it. But let's wait and see. 


watching: silverado

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Posted: 11 Sep 2005 04:32 am    
By PeteD

Two things I noticed about Knights4 #21: 

Sue's comment on the third last page,last panel about "a previously unknown dimension that mirrors our own. Complete with younger versions of ourselves." I haven't read the Ultimate FF yet, soon I hope, but they look younger from a glance and if so this is a reference to it, I guess, that makes a link between the two. Would that be the first link? 

Johnny's comment about the "groovy going-away presents the Panther's given us" making Wyatt Wingfoot lose it suggests that Wyatt isn't there with them, and won't see the gifts until they get home. If he is there why isn't he in the palace? 

Pete.

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Posted: 11 Sep 2005 10:32 am    
By jephyork
Director

SPOILERS! 

Quote: 
>>>
Sue's comment ... about "a previously unknown dimension that mirrors our own. Complete with younger versions of ourselves." I haven't read the Ultimate FF yet ... but ... I guess, that makes a link between the two. 
<<<

While UFF #21 was supposed to make everyone think that Ultimate Reed had been contacted by 616 Reed, the last page threw us a curve by revealing that it was a trick -- Ultimate Reed has really been contacted by a universe that's basically 100% zombies. 

Unless Millar throws us ANOTHER curve on the last page of #23, by bringing in 616 Reed to save the day ... which he very well might do, to be honest ... "Crossover" has nothing to do with Earth-616. 


Quote: 
>>>
Johnny's comment about the "groovy going-away presents the Panther's given us" making Wyatt Wingfoot lose it suggests that Wyatt isn't there with them, and won't see the gifts until they get home. 
<<<

All it suggests to me is that he isn't in the room at that moment. Knowing Wyatt, I suggest that he's probably in his guest chamber, sleeping soundly. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Sep 2005 01:02 pm    
By PeteD

Jeph, I'm talking about Knights4 #21, not Ultimate FF #21, but with the same issue number I understand the confusion. 

I've since had a look at the Masterworks edition for the original stories and when Johnny gets his gift, the same fishing rod btw, Wyatt is in the room receiving his gift, so there is no way to tie the two descriptions together, except: 

The story in Knights4 #21 is told by Sue, not an editorial flashback, so it is her version of the events then. Even if we are talking 12-15 years of Marvel time and not the near forty years that have passed, I can't blame her for telling the story without forgetting something. 

Plus I like Sue so I'll allow her the latitude.  

Pete.

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Posted: 11 Sep 2005 06:42 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I know you meant FOUR #21. You're asking if FOUR #21 is making reference to UFF #21-23. I'm telling you that, unless 616-Reed shows up in UFF #23, then no, there's no reference. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Sep 2005 12:07 am    
By PeteD

I haven't read UFF but I thought the comment by Sue seemed to make reference to the general concept of the whole Ultimate Universe. Sue, and the rest of the 616-MU, have no knowledge of the UMU but we do and that's how I was reading it. More of a nod and a wink/in-joke to the readers than a direct reference. 

There was a similar thing in the FF shortly after Heroes Reborn with the appearance of Tintin, but never by name for copyright reasons. 

Sorry to have confused you. 

Pete.

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Thread 12

Posted: 12 Sep 2005 07:44 am    Post subject: WAR MACHINE question & name entry
By RLG

In the original series, a character known as the "Advisor" continued to pop up. It quickly became obvious that he had some supernatural powers and acted as if he was an agent of an evil entity. Since I cannot find him in the MCP, I'm guessing that he is another character (like Mephisto, which I checked) in disguise. Does anyone known who he is? 

Also, according to Rae LaCoste in WARM 11 (20p3), Dr. Jefferies first name is "RANALD." 

RLG

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Thread 13

Posted: 12 Sep 2005 03:35 pm    Post subject: Amphibius - X:HY 4
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Amphibius is listed as appearing in HIDDEN YEARS #4, but I'm damned if I can actually see him in it. Error, or am I missing something?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Sep 2005 03:42 pm    
By Ant-Man

I searched that issue and can't find him either...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 12 Sep 2005 08:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Neither can I.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 14

Posted: 14 Sep 2005 04:57 pm    Post subject: Thor and Loki appearances in Venus (Golden Age) issues
By wolframbane

Would the Golden Age appearances of Thor and Loki in the Venus comics be considered canon? They were referred to in OHMUGA. 

Thor appeared in Venus #12, 13. Loki appeared in Venus #7, 12.

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Posted: 14 Sep 2005 05:11 pm    
By Enda80

Already listed. 

BP3 46 
BP3 47 
INV 32 
INV 33 
VENUS 12 
VENUS 13 
M/:LG 5 
M/TALES 252/2 
T 254-FB 
T 415-FB-BTS

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Thread 15

Posted: 15 Jul 2005 02:09 pm    Post subject: Placement Clues for Amazing Fantasy
By meta

Amazing Fantasy #010 gives us some clues as to wear it belongs in the over all chronology of things. Nick Fury is in charge of S.H.I.E.L.D. and is seen to be arguing with Agent Khanata. In other words the Scorpian arc presumably has to come before Secret War and Fury being booted out of S.H.I.E.L.D. Of course we also see the New Scorpian turn up in this month HoM Hulk issue, which means it's unlikely she had her origins after Fury re-establishes control. 


Just trying to be a little helpful, feel free to contradict.

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Posted: 15 Jul 2005 08:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for chiming in, meta. 

Nick Fury's chronology has to be one of the most exasperating things about current continuity. It's hard to base placement on his appearances because we really don't know his fate vis-a-vis SHIELD and probably won't until the last issue of SECRET WAR comes out. Does he indeed get fired? Demoted to field lieutenant? Shunned by the heroes he involved in the SECRET WAR? Who knows? 

[Sidebar: We also have Fury's severe injuries to consider from the "Enemy of the State" story arc in W3, although a SHIELD mutant healer could have dealt with that in short order.] 

But we already do have Fury appearing to be in charge at SHIELD in other titles after the whole SECRET WAR episode, and Amazing Fantasy could conceivably fall into that group. We may have to rely on other clues in the Amazing Fantasy story arc for placement and not hinge everything on the unreliable Fury references.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Jul 2005 09:23 am    
By meta

Well, if my minimalistic help there didn't do much then a quick look at Thunderbolts #010 looks like we're gonna have another problem. By the looks of things T-bolts #010 leads directly into House of M. Which means there's gotta be a huge gap somewhere in the first 10 issues, enough of a gap for the new Avengers to form and get all of their pre-House adventures done

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Posted: 16 Jul 2005 11:46 am    
By Col_Fury

That gap doesn't have to be huge. New Avengers 1-6 happens over the course of 2 days, & 7 takes place on the 3rd consecutive day. The arc from 7-12 involves the origin of the Sentry, so that makes me think they will all be in the same day. According to interviews, New Avengers 12 will lead directly into HoM. We would have to push New Thunderbolts closer to the end of that Six Month gap to be sure, but I think we can find a three day gap to fit New Avengers in.(if, or course, 7-12 is in one day)

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Posted: 17 Jul 2005 02:08 am    
By Col_Fury

After re-reading that last few issues of New Thunderbolts here's what I've come up with, assuming New Avengers 7-12 has a one day span & leads directly into HoM. 

There's an unspecified gap between New T-Bolts 6 & 7. It can't be terribly long because Songbird still can't talk, due to the injuries she sustained in the previous arc. However, it does have to be long enough to put together the TV special we're 'watching' in this issue. 

From 7 to 8, a 'few days' later. Mach V calls Songbird & leaves a message saying "It's been a few days, I was hoping..." This could be the gap we need. Issues 8 through 10 run continuously over the span of 3 days & end with the HoM reality switch. New Avengers days 1, 2, & 3 could take place in this space or during New T-Bolts 8-10, depending on how long New Avengers 7-12 lasts. 

Another clue: Namor appears in New Avengers 7 wearing the same uniform he's wearing in New T-Bolts 8 & 9, both of which take place directly before HoM.(New Avengers supposedly) He could have gone from his 'meeting' with Iron Man in New Avengers 7 to the T-Bolts HQ in New T-Bolts 8. It's revelead that the reason he's wearing the suit is to filter out toxins,(which is why he's attacking the T-Bolts, see below) so him wearing it in New Avengers 7 *should* be for the same reason.(& would explain why he's in such a foul mood in New Avengers<It should be mentioned that Namor is not wearing this suit when he appears in New T-Bolts 2, which is before what comes next>) His people are suffering from a radiation sickness that the Radioactive Man started, & it's spreading quickly. If it's been less than a week since their last encounter(a day or two between 6 & 7, plus a few days between 7 & 8 makes 4 or 6, roughly) that would hold up with the 'quickly spreading' sickness. 

Here's the problem: Purple Man is manipulating events(& seen walking free, i.e. in buildings, on the street, etc) from as far back as issue 2. He's seen in issues 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, & 10. It's inferred that the Purple Man was imprisoned continually from the end of Alias up to New Avengers, but never explicitly stated. We can assume he escaped after the beating he got from Cage, but *if* New Avengers happens between New T-Bolts 7 & 8, how can the Purple Man be running around before he escapes? We can't put New Avengers before New T-Bolts 1, because "the Avengers have disbanded" is mentioned lots & lots in those first seven issues.(I'm paraphrasing here) I suppose it's *possible* to have him incarcerated in an untold story between issues 6 & 7, but we'd probably have to open up that 1 to 2 day gap,(& take panels 1-3 on pg. 15 of issue 7 of New T-Bolts & move them forward to issue 8) which would screw up the 'quickly spreading' radiation sickness.(I don't know much about this, but I supposed the sickness could have started slowly, & built exponentially as more Atlantians were affected, which would allow for more time to pass) All we know about what the Purple Man is doing in relation to New T-Bolts is that he's controlling the Swordsman, so this could work. When he returns from the Raft, he could have picked up from where he left off with the Swordsman. It's either this, or there's 2 Purple Men.(I guess the Scarlet Witch could have made a second one when she was Disassembling the Avengers......)

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Posted: 17 Jul 2005 03:11 am    
By Col_Fury

An attempt to simplify some of the above: 

Purple Man 
Appears in Alias, imprisoned at the Raft in issue 28 
Escapes in an unpublished adventure 
Appears in New T-Bolts 2, 4, 6 
Captured in an unpublished adventure, thrown back in the Raft 
Appears in New Avengers 1 & 2, escapes the Raft again 
Appearance in New T-Bolts 7, pg. 15, panels 1, 2, 3 is moved forward to allow for New Avengers 1-2 to take place between New T-Bolts 7 & 8 
Appears in New T-Bolts 8-10 

Panels 1-3 on pg. 15 of New T-Bolts 7 has no effect on the story. It's basically a 'subplot reminder' to keep the audience up to speed, & doesn't affect the pages before or after it. It's there mainly to have something to cut away to, so moving it shouldn't be a problem. 

Namor 
Appears in New T-Bolts 2 & 3 
Goes back to Atlantis, he soon discovers a sickness spreading through his people, puts on his 'anti-toxin' suit, & on his way back hears of the Raft incident 
Appears in New Avengers 7 in his 'anti-toxin' suit 
Appears in New T-Bolts 8 & 9 in his 'anti-toxin' suit 

I know that moving those panels in New T-Bolts 7 seems arbitrary by itself, but it's the only way I can think of to accomodate everything else that's going on. I also realize that most of this hinges on New Avengers 7-12 taking place in a pretty short time-span.(which seems likely) Also, if this is how everything fits, it would mean that everything from Amazing Spider-Man 516, Marvel Knights Spider-Man 13, & probably Spider-Man: Breakout forward is all post-HoM. If post-HoM Marvel is drastically changed, or if New Avengers 7-12 takes 'longer' than anticipated, I guess we're going to have to crack those gaps between New T-Bolts 6 & 7, and 7 & 8 open a bit further.

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Posted: 17 Jul 2005 07:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

Alternately: 

For the sake of the Purple Man's chronology ... why don't we try placing New Avengers #1-6 before New T-Bolts #1? 

Yes, I know that New T-Bolts #1 opens with a statement that the Avengers are disbanded ... but we have no idea when the formation of the New Avengers becomes public knowledge. For all we know, they've already formed -- but nobody's told the media or the T-Bolts. 

That scenario would allow the Purple Man to be free in all the TB2 comics, without having to invent *yet another jailbreak* for him. And it would also allow us to place ASM #516-524, Spider-Man: Breakout and M/KS-M #13-18 before House of M. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Jul 2005 08:06 am    
By meta

While on the subject of the breakout looks like we've got another escapee who's gonna be re-captured twice. Wreaker of the Wreaking Crew. 

We know that the entire Wreaking Crew, and Piledrivers son, are arrested in Runaways #001, which puts them all in prison for Avengers #001 during the breakout. 

Wreaker then breaks out during the breakout and is seen in Avengers #007 fighting against Spiderwoman, Cage, Wolverine and Spider-man, in Long Island, where Wreaker has gone to collect his costume and crowbar. 

But then at some point Wreaker hooks up with Piledriver shortly after the breakout and head to the museum of Modern Art to find Wreakers spare crow bar, which has apparently been buried under the museum. The pair of them battle Toxin and are re-arrested in Toxin #004. 

Obviously this might not turn out to be a problem if the Avengers are unable to catch him, but I figured I'd post it here anyway, just to give all of the good chronologers a heads up.

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Posted: 17 Jul 2005 10:14 am    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
For the sake of the Purple Man's chronology ... why don't we try placing New Avengers #1-6 before New T-Bolts #1? 
<<<

I think it (and most of the other scenarios being discussed here) would require a comparitively major change to NA 3 though - basically, that the Purple Man's powers don't fail on Cage, and that he's actually sneaking away when everyone thinks Cage is beating him up (although, some of his narration in NTB9 could be used to support that reading if Bendis doesn't show him hopped up in plaster casts or somesuch). 

And, while we're on "apparances villains used simultaneously in Tbolts and another book conflicting badly"... 


Quote: 
>>>
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=5464 
One villain that readers might not expect to see again is former Hydra Leader Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker. Strucker vowed revenge after the Thunderbolts foiled his plot to detonate nuclear weapons in New York City. Strucker appeared to have met his demise in issue #25 of "Wolverine" which was part of "The Enemy of the State" story line. "You mean that skinny guy in the suit and tie who was p-whipped by some 600 year old lady? Yeah, the big burly Nazi guy with the monocle and Satan's Claw got a good chuckle out of that one," Nicieza said. "Or in other words, the story is not over yet -- and we'll follow-up on it in TBolts fairly soon... " 
<<<

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Posted: 17 Jul 2005 03:12 pm    
By Col_Fury

Speaking of Baron Strucker, he's the reason(& Wolverine, of course) that New T-Bolts 1-6 are tied to Wolverine's Enemy of the State story, which happens before New Avengers 1-6. So we can't put New Avengers before New T-Bolts, because EotS came first.(believe me, I thought about it) New T-Bolts & EotS are relatively concurrent, then EotS is referred to in New Avengers by Wolverine. 

We also have the Wrecker to think about. So he's jailed in Runaways, huh? Well, the whole crew is in New T-Bolts 2, who gets defeated & jailed, again. They're also in the Raft in New Avengers, which just like Purple Man, would put them in two places at once.... unless there's another jailbreak. But why do we have to invent one if there's already one out there? 

There's a Raft breakout referred to in Fantastic Four: Foes, & Nick Fury is still on the Helicarrier, doing SHIELD stuff. This doesn't exactly fit with the New Avengers, where Fury is 'gone,' so I guess what I'm asking is: is the breakout in FF:F explicitly tied to New Avengers? Or *could* it be a different jailbreak, one that happened before New Avengers, allowing for the Wrecking Crew, Purple Man, and whoever else that pops up who can't to be out of jail? If that works, how about this: 

Purple Man 
Appears in Alias, imprisoned at the Raft in issue 28 
Escapes in Fantastic For: Foes 
Appears in New T-Bolts 2, 4, 6 
Captured in an unpublished adventure, thrown back in the Raft 
Appears in New Avengers 1 & 2, escapes the Raft again 
Appearance in New T-Bolts 7, pg. 15, panels 1, 2, 3 is moved forward to allow for New Avengers 1-2 to take place between New T-Bolts 7 & 8 
Appears in New T-Bolts 8-10 

Wrecker and/or Wrecking Crew 
Appears in Runaways, thrown in the raft 
Escapes in Fantastic Four: Foes 
Appears in New T-Bolts 2, captured & thrown back in the Raft 
Appears in New Avengers 1 & 2, escapes the Raft again 
Appears in New Avengers 7 
Appears in Toxin 4 

Of course, those last two depend on how the current story in New Avengers turn out...

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Posted: 18 Jul 2005 12:10 am    
By Col_Fury

The more I look into this, the more I'm thinking we may need to spread that 'few days' gap between New T-Bolts 7 & 8 open a bit more. The quote was "It's been a few days", but it could be referring to the last time Mach IV called, not since Songbird quit. Why open it more? There needs to be time for the rest of EotS & AoS in Wolverine to finish, & any adventures he has before joining the New Avengers, possibly Fantastic Four: Foes, possibly Secret War, not to mention the rest of the Marvel Universe to catch up. Also, this could fit in the Spider-Man stuff so they're not post-HoM, depending on how New Avengers leads into HoM. 

As far as Fantastic Four: Foes, of course it's the one time I decide to wait for the trade instead of buying it as it came out.(& I can't read it until the trade comes out in August) *If* FF:F isn't referring to New Avengers, it could also explain Mr. Hyde escaping back in Captain America 29,(which was also written by Kirkman, I might add) as well as the Wrecking Crew & Purple Man.(A tangent: Maybe Purple Man had the Wrecking Crew & Hyde break the group of them out, & Purple Man 'convinced' Raft guards to forget about it? It would explain Captain America's dialogue about "someone escaped," because he's who they noticed first, & that's why Purple Man is so drugged up the 'next' time he's thrown in, ie: New Avengers) However, if FF:F *is* referring to New Avengers, well, I guess we're back to sticking it between New Avengers issues with Fury somehow back with S.H.I.E.L.D. & convicts running around while they're supposed to be incarcerated.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jul 2005 02:25 am    
By Col_Fury

More thoughts: If FF:F can be pushed back, how will that affect Marvel Team-Up 1-6? FF:F has to occur after this, because of the 'displaced Tony Stark' being held in stasis in FF:F. *Can* MTU 1-6 be pushed back? Doing so would help give other series a chance to 'catch up' like Sunfire appearing in Rogue 7-12, & Jubilee going off to L.A., but what about Wolverine & Spider-Man? MTU 1-6 were re-written for the sole reason of taking place before New Avengers, whereas MTU 7-10 take place afterwards. I can't think of any reasons why this would affect Wolverine & Spider-Man appearances, but my brain's shot at this point. 

The breakout referenced in FF:F has to be bigger than implied in my tangent above, now that I think about it. Apparently lots of villains escaped for so many to be attacking the FF, but if there was a previous jailbreak, it would explain the hightened security measures shown in New Avengers, which may be why everyone's shocked that so many escaped 'this time.' 

How's this: 
The Wrecking Crew is thrown in the Raft in Runaways, Purple Man in Alias, all pre-Disassembled 
A jailbreak happens, 'referenced' in FF:F, Captain America 29 
Avengers disband 
Raft updates security protocols, time passes 
Purple Man & Wrecking Crew appear in New T-Bolts 2, Wrecking Crew thrown back in Raft 
Rest of New T-Bolts 2-6, EotS, AoS in Wolverine, New Invaders 
Namor goes back to Atlantis 
Purple Man is captured off panel between New T-Bolts 6 & 8 
MTU 1-6 
New T-Bolts 7(move those panels for Purple Man forward) 
Jubilee 1-6, Wolverine: Soultaker  , Rogue 7-12, etc 
Fantastic Four: Foes 
Secret War, Nick Fury is demoted or something 
New Avengers 1 & 2, lots of villains escape, including Purple Man & Wrecker, rest of New Avengers 2-6 
Spider-Man: Breakout 1-5 
Wrecker & Namor in New Avengers 7, the rest of New Avengers 8-12, possibly Wrecker in Toxin 4 
Possibly MTU 7-10 
Possibly ASM & M/K:SM 
New T-Bolts 8-10 w/ Purple Man & Namor 
House of M 
Possibly MTU 7-10 
Possibly ASM & M/K:SM 

The bulk of Spider-Man: Breakout seems to happen between New Avengers 6 & 7, all in one night & the next day.(there's some 'pre-story' stuff in #1) Spider-Man could have run into the Controller & co. the night of New Avengers 6, finished the Breakout series the next day, then joined Cage, Wolverine, etc to find more escapees in New Avengers 7. This could keep the day to day time references in New Avengers workable. In ASM & M/K:SM, Spider-Man is moving into Avengers Tower, & there hasn't been enough time in New Avengers for this to happen. I'm assuming it'll be after New Avengers 12, hopefully before HoM, which would put MTU 7-10 before ASM & M/K:SM, but after New Avengers 12. Why? Spider-Man's still in his apartment in MTU 7-10, & Captain America tells Wolverine that "He's an Avenger now" in MTU 10. MTU 7-10 all happen in one day. 

Mr. Hyde saying "First human face I've seen in a year" in New Avengers 2 has to be chalked up to exaggeration. He was seen in public in Captain America 29, which was supposed to be six months ago!(Give or take) Thanks, Bendis! 

Kirkman had SHIELD agents acting badly in both Captain America & FF:F, & referenced a 'jailbreak' in both titles. It's possible these were his own subplots, & the jailbreak wasn't meant to be referring to New Avengers. Again, I haven't read the FF:F yet, but I don't remember seeing a "New Avengers tie-in" blurb on the cover of any of these books on the shelf. He also stuck the displaced Tony Stark from MTU in FF:F, so it's obvious he likes mentioning his other books. Just a thought. 

Again, we have to wait for HoM to finish, New Avengers 8-12 & Secret War 5 to come out, & see how ASM & M/K:SM fits in with New Avengers & MTU 7-10. There's still some work to do, but I think is a pretty good framework to start with.

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Posted: 18 Jul 2005 10:35 am    
By meta

The only problem I can think of with moving MTU 1-6 back, is Spider-Man's comment to Cap - "No love for a fellow Avenger? That's cold Steve" - Although it could be argued that he's talking about his former reserve Avenger status from way back when. Although I don't recall Peter ever using Cap's first name back then. 

MTU does have to take place after the Captain America disassembled arc as the LMD Diamondback is seen in the helicarrier.

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 01:11 am  
By Col_Fury

I just finished reading fantastic Four: Foes, so... 

In issue 2, Reed mentions 'a massive jailbreak' from the Raft but in issue 4, Nick Fury mentions a breakout happening 'today,' which is at least a day or two after issue 2. Obviously, the Raft isn't very good at holding prisoners, at least at this point, there's already 2 breakouts! The jailbreak mentioned in issue 2 *could* be referring to the one mentioned in Captain America 29, also written by Kirkman. This supports the Purple Man theory for New T-Bolts. 

However, the jailbreak mentioned in issue 4 *seems* like it's referring to New Avengers. As stated elsewhere, this doesn't work. The jailbreak happens in New Avengers 1-6, which implies that Nick Fury isn't in a position to do any SHIELD related things. And yet, *if* FF:F #4 is referring to the New Avengers jailbreak, there's Nick Fury doing SHIELD related things. Until Secret War #5 arrives, I'm assuming that none of the jailbreaks in FF:F refers to New Avengers. 

One of the main plot points in FF:F is building a new Vault in the Negative Zone. Jailbreak #1 happens,(referred to in FF:F #2, possibly Captain America 29) Reed decides to become 'proactive' by hunting their foes & building a new Vault. Jailbreak #2 happens,(referred to in FF:F #4) Reed speeds up the progress on the new Vault & in hunting their foes. They complete the new Vault, & it's shown to be a failure in FF:F #6. SHIELD then decides to take some of the ideas from the Negative Zone Vault to improve the existing Raft that they're repairing anyway. Jailbreak #3 happens in New Avengers, & everyone's really surprised this time because of all the improvements. 

So how's this: 

The Wrecking Crew is thrown in the Raft in Runaways, Purple Man in Alias, all pre-Disassembled 
Jailbreak #1 happens, 'referenced' in Captain America 29, FF:F 2 
Avengers Disassembled 
Time passes, adventures in the Marvel Universe! 
MTU 1-6 
Fantastic Four: Foes, refers to jailbreak #2, builds new Vault which fails 
Raft updates security protocols using ideas from the new Vault 
Purple Man & Wrecking Crew appear in New T-Bolts 2, Wrecking Crew thrown back in Raft 
Rest of New T-Bolts 2-6, EotS, AoS in Wolverine, New Invaders 
Namor goes back to Atlantis 
Purple Man is captured off panel between New T-Bolts 6 & 8 
New T-Bolts 7(move those panels for Purple Man forward) 
Time passes, more adventures in the Marvel Universe! 
Secret War, Nick Fury is demoted or something 
New Avengers 1 & 2, lots of villains escape in jailbreak #3, including Purple Man & Wrecker, rest of New Avengers 2-6, fb from NA 8 
Namor in pgs 1-6 of NA #7 
Spider-Man: Breakout 1-5 
Possibly MTU 7-10, 11 
Possibly New X-Men 14 
Wrecker in New Avengers 7 & 8, X-Men, FF, Inhumans, & Namor in New Avengers 8, the rest of New Avengers 9-12, Wrecker in Toxin 4 
Possibly MTU 7-10, 11 
Possibly ASM & M/K:SM 
Possibly New X-Men 14 
New T-Bolts 8-10 w/ Purple Man & Namor 
House of M 
Possibly ASM & M/K:SM 

Marvel Team-Up #11 has some clues; 
1. Spider-Man is worrying about sending out bills, which infers that he's still living in the apartment. 
2. Tokyo was destroyed in MTU #9, 7-10 all happen in one night. Dr. Strange mentions that 9 different countries are sending their militaries, & that there's a media blackout so that the rest of the world doesn't know yet, inferring it happened very recently. Also, Wolverine has been in Tokyo protecting people, so MTU #11 *should* happen shortly after 7-10. 
3. Dr. Strange mentions that both "Captain America & Iron Man aren't in the city." What are they doing? Who knows? Cap was just in MTU 7-10, so he's already off doing something else, possibly looking for the Sentry with Iron Man. 

This all happens at least after New Avengers 6, the flashback from 8, & the first 6 pages of 7, possibly after New Avengers 12 depending on how that story wraps up. 

New Avengers #8 has some more clues; 
1. The New Avengers leave the Wrecker webbed to a light pole. We can assume he got free to appear in Toxin #4 to look for his spare crowbar. 
2. "One week ago" Iron Man & Wolverine talk about Wolverine joining the New Avengers. I'm assuming that this is on the way home from New Avengers #6. "Today" they're fighting the Wrecker. This opens up the space between 6 & 7, because in #7 Iron Man mentions that the Raft incident was 'yesterday.' So therefore, the meeting he had with Namor, Dr. Strange, Mr. Fantastic, Professor X, & Black Bolt is not happening concurrently with the Wrecker fight, it's '6 days' ago. However, the Wrecker fight is happening at roughly the same time that Captain America & Iron Man are confronting the Sentry, or at least shortly after it. Basically, there's one week between the end of #6 & the bulk of #7 
3. Speaking of confronting the Sentry, at the end of New Avengers #8 the New Avengers, Fantastic Four, Inhumans, X-Men, & SHIELD are all together to confront the Sentry after Captain America & Iron Man's first try earlier in the same issue. Iron Man calls the New Avengers that are fighting the Wrecker to meet them, which they do. This meeting may be what Cyclops is referring to in New X-Men #14, instead of HoM. Iron Man could have called the others teams to meet before calling the rest of the New Avengers, which could explain why Cyclops had to bow out of 'Prizegiving Day' in New X-Men; it was a 'drop everything & show up' meeting, not a 'planned out' meeting as depicted in HoM. 
4. Speaking of the HoM meeting, MTU #10 had Captain America & Wolverine exchanging information on the Scarlet Witch, among other things. This could be the planning stages of the meeting shown in HoM. 
5. Namor is still wearing his anti-toxin suit in New Avengers #8. A week has passed since we last saw him in New Avengers #7, so he's still trying to figure out what's happening to his people, but hasn't confronted the T-Bolts yet. 

As far as Spider-Man using Captain America's first name in MTU, Cap's identity has been known for a while at that point, so it's probably Spider-Man trying to be casual. Good point about Spider-Man's reserve status. 

Hopefully this all makes sense. Thoughts?

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 11:21 am    
By Somebody

One on Namor - unless there's dialogue, as in NTB, to the fact that his black costume *is* an anti-toxin suit and that's why he's wearing it, that shouldn't be taken as evidence of anything. He doesn't wear it quite as often as his speedos, but he does wear it for the sake of wearing it sometimes (i.e. when the artist prefers it).

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 12:50 pm    
By meta

RE: The Wreaking crew. Jessica Drew talks to Wreaker about the team being defeated by the Runaways, so Runaways vol.2 has to occur prior to the jail break in Avengers #001

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 01:49 pm    
By Col_Fury

Namor does specifically mention in New T-Bolts that he's wearing the suit because of the spreading sickness. 

New T-Bolts, #9, pg 11; Namor: "...while the suit I wear was originally designed to filter toxins from the water, so I remain safe..." 

Runaways vol 1 was pre-disassembled, vol 2 is 9 months later.(roughly) Did the Runaways defeat the Wrecker in #1 of vol 1 or vol 2? I thought it was vol 1, but it's looking like I assumed incorrectly. If it is vol 2, I can adjust. Thanks!

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 03:15 pm    
By Col_Fury

Some quick research reveals that it was Runaways vol 2 #1 where the Wrecking Crew is defeated, not vol 1. So... 

Purple Man is in the Raft in Alias, pre-Disassembled 
Jailbreak #1 happens, 'referenced' in Captain America 29, FF:F 2 
Avengers Disassembled 
Time passes, adventures in the Marvel Universe! 
MTU 1-6 
Purple Man & Wrecking Crew appear in New T-Bolts 2, Wrecking Crew thrown in Raft 
Rest of New T-Bolts 2-6, EotS, AoS in Wolverine, New Invaders 
Namor goes back to Atlantis 
New T-Bolts 7 
Fantastic Four: Foes, jailbreak #2 happens in FF:F #4, builds new Vault which fails, possibly recaptures Purple Man along with a bunch of other bad guys 
Raft updates security protocols using ideas from the new Vault 
Time passes, more adventures in the Marvel Universe! 
Runaways vol 2, Wrecking Crew thrown back in Raft 
Secret War, Nick Fury is demoted or something 
New Avengers 1 & 2, lots of villains escape in jailbreak #3, including Purple Man & Wrecker, rest of New Avengers 2-6, fb from NA 8 
Namor in pgs 1-6 of NA #7 
Spider-Man: Breakout 1-5 
Possibly MTU 7-10, 11 
Possibly New X-Men 14 
Wrecker in New Avengers 7 & 8, X-Men, FF, Inhumans, & Namor in New Avengers 8, the rest of New Avengers 9-12, Wrecker in Toxin 4 
Possibly MTU 7-10, 11 
Possibly ASM & M/K:SM 
Possibly New X-Men 14 
New T-Bolts 8-10 w/ Purple Man & Namor 
House of M 
Possibly ASM & M/K:SM 

Purple Man escapes from his Alias imprisonment in jailbreak #1, so he can appear in New T-Bolts 1-7. Jailbreak #2 happens, Purple Man is still free. He's possibly captured off panel by the Fantastic Four during FF:F, which would erase the need to move the panels from New T-Bolts 7. Purple Man escapes again in New Avengers in jailbreak #3, so he can appear in New T-Bolts 8-10. 

The Wrecking Crew is captured in New T-Bolts 2, which is after jailbreak #1. The Wrecking Crew escapes in jailbreak #2, so they can appear in Runaways vol 2, then thrown back in Raft. They then escape again in jailbreak #3, in New Avengers. Spider Woman refers to the Runaways, so it's probably the most recent capture for the Wrecker.(not to mention the most embarrasing) He then appears in Toxin 4. 

Jailbreak #1: Purple Man, Mr. Hyde & others escape, pre-disassembled, some are re-captured like Mr. Hyde in Captain America 29. 

Jailbreak #2: Wrecking Crew & others escape, the Fantastic Four try to clean up & recapture a lot of them, most of them Fantastic Four villains. Others recaptured elsewhere, like the Wrecking Crew in Runaways vol 2. 

Jailbreak #3: New Avengers. Purple Man & Wrecking Crew escapes, & lots of others. Everyone's alarmed because the Raft had lots of villains because of the Fantastic Four 'cleaning up' in FF:F. Security has been updated, so everyone's surprised that another breakout has happend so quickly after the improvements.

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 04:08 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
at the end of New Avengers #8 the New Avengers, Fantastic Four, Inhumans, X-Men, & SHIELD are all together to confront the Sentry after Captain America & Iron Man's first try earlier in the same issue. This meeting may be what Cyclops is referring to in New X-Men #14, instead of HoM. Iron Man could have called the others teams to meet before calling the rest of the New Avengers, which could explain why Cyclops had to bow out of 'Prizegiving Day' in New X-Men; it was a 'drop everything & show up' meeting, not a 'planned out' meeting as depicted in HoM. 
<<<

I really, really, really like this. And it provides a way for "New X-Men: Hellions" #1-4 and the New X-Men yearbook to occur pre-HoM. 

The "three breakouts" theory works for me too. I honestly don't care HOW many breakouts the Raft has had ... as it seems to happen all the time. Can the breakout from Alias #27 be worked in as one of the three, or would that be breakout #4? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 04:22 pm    
By Col_Fury

Alias 27 would be breakout #0, because at the end of Alias 28 the Purple Man is being brought back to the Raft by SHIELD agents. So we could renumber the breakouts, or keep them as 0, 1, 2, 3.

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 05:08 pm    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Namor does specifically mention in New T-Bolts that he's wearing the suit because of the spreading sickness. 
<<<

New T-Bolts, #9, pg 11; Namor: "...while the suit I wear was originally designed to filter toxins from the water, so I remain safe..." 

I was talking about in Avengers. If you look at my post, I said " unless there's dialogue, as in NTB, to the fact that his black costume *is* an anti-toxin suit"

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 05:33 pm    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
I was talking about in Avengers. If you look at my post, I said " unless there's dialogue, as in NTB, to the fact that his black costume *is* an anti-toxin suit" 
<<<

Oops. You're right. Sorry about that.  

No, there's no dialogue in New Avengers as to why he's wearing the suit. It does make sense given the timeframe with New T-Bolts, & would also explain why Namor is in a bad mood in New Avengers 7.(he's always in a foul mood, but...) It's not mentioned, however, because it has no bearing on the New Avengers plot. It was either good planning on Bendis' part(doubt it) or just great serendipity. Either way, it works out nicely.

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Posted: 08 Aug 2005 09:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier

Let me throw something else into the mix here. I think the sequence as presented attempts to deal with placing Fury's appearances as SHIELD director before the mysterious SECWAR, but we have one major problem with this...from a title no one's considered yet -- Hercules. 

In HERC 4, for his ninth labor, Hercules goes to Stark Tower and fights the New Avengers. It's obviously after A4 6 and probably shortly after A4 11, as news of the New Avengers appears to be recent (Herc knows where the group lives but Herc's TV crew doesn't.) 

Also in HERC 4, for his eleventh labor, Hercules steals the SHIELD helicarrier. Nick Fury is aboard and appears to be in charge here. 

Thus at some point after Agent Hill is acting director of SHIELD (A4 1-11), Fury returns! That opens up the possibility of Fury appearing as head of SHIELD in other stories after A4 11 -- for example, M/TU3 6 and FOES 3. 

Everyone's been assuming the reason that Agent Hill is head of SHIELD in A4 is because of Fury's demotion or suspension or some such thing in SECWAR. BUT...what if Agent Hill is acting head because Fury is still recuperating from the serious injuries he suffered in W3 27, the "agent of SHIELD" storyline that follows up "Enemy of the State," which we all know (from dialog in A4 8) occurs before A4. 

What if we have this sequence... 
W3 20-25 (Enemy of the State; Fury in charge) 
W3 26-31 (Agent of SHIELD; Fury injured, Dum Dum takes over) 
Hill replaces Dugan as acting director for some reason BTS 
A4 1-11 (Hill is in charge) 
Fury fully recovers from his injuries and reassumes his post 
HERC 4 (Fury back in charge) 

So then what about SECWAR? Issue #5 may blow this theory apart, but what if SECWAR occurred a while before all the above? Fury loses control of SHIELD, tries to regain control in PUN7 13-18, then at some point between PUN7 18 and W3 20 he succeeds in getting SHIELD back? 

Having said that, I'll go back and see how the proposed sequence looks from the standpoint of temporal references and various other clues. 

Good brainstorming here... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 03:02 am    
By Col_Fury

So I had a chance to read Hercules, & then re-read Secret War 1-4 to refresh myself. So here's what we know for sure in no particular order... 

The 'present day' portion of Secret War happens pre-disassembled. Spider-man has mechanical web-shooters & Captan America wants to call the Avengers into action a lot. 

The Secret War Pulse tie-in issues has behind-the-scenes government people trying to make Fury look bad in the press, possibly part of a plan to get him removed from his position as head of SHIELD. 

Fury is still in charge of SHIELD during disassembled, as he appears in Avengers 500-503. 

Punisher 13-18 has Fury trying to regain his position as head of SHIELD. 

The Wolverine EotS & AoS stories take place post-disassembled, pre-New Avengers, Fury is in charge of SHIELD. 

Fury is not in charge of SHIELD during the formation of the New Avengers. 

Hercules 4 happens after the New Avengers form & is made public, & Nick Fury is on the Helicarrier, apparently in charge because there's a guy reporting to him. 

Current Fantastic Four issues has Fury apparently in charge of SHIELD, no references to the New Avengers. 

So obviously, something happens between those Wolverine issues & the New Avengers. 

Quote: 
>>>
What if we have this sequence... 
W3 20-25 (Enemy of the State; Fury in charge) 
W3 26-31 (Agent of SHIELD; Fury injured, Dum Dum takes over) 
Hill replaces Dugan as acting director for some reason BTS 
A4 1-11 (Hill is in charge) 
Fury fully recovers from his injuries and reassumes his post 
HERC 4 (Fury back in charge) 
<<<

That... is actually a pretty good suggestion. But here's a few things we 'kind of' know... 

Something happens at the end of Secret War 5. 


Quote: 
>>>
He was asked this question: "When's secret war #5 out? has Dell'Otto got anything else planned?" 

Bendis's reply: "Its solicited for October. Not October 2003, but what can you do? I rewrote a lot of it so it fits into whats going on in the marvel u today especially in NA as so many of the characters connect to what has happened there. It has repercussions in other books and it will definitely pay off for those of you who hung in there."  
<<<


This makes me think that Fury not being in charge of SHIELD during New Avengers is tied to Secret War. Also, after the Sentry story wraps up in New Avengers 10, there's a 'corruption in SHIELD' story in New Avengers 11-13, according to Previews. I'm assuming here, of course, but it looks like Bendis will re-instate Fury as head of SHIELD during these 3 issues, which would allow for Fury to appear in Hercules 4 after the formation of the New Avengers. We won't know anything for sure until October, so it's a good thing we have alternatives!

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 08:24 am
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Obviously, SECWAR 5 is going to have a MAJOR impact on continuity, chronology, and calendar placement. I'm really overdue in getting a new calendar out, but so much is predicated on how things turn out in SECWAR 5. I'm tempted to wait, but feel I should get something out there soon for folks to tear down... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 12:48 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

At this point, I say hold off, and we simply focus on getting everything in line up to House of M #1. Secret War #5 is coming in October, which is only a couple months away, (in fact, it looks like it's going to ship the first week of October, so it's actually less than 2 months away...) Better safe than sorry, (this is Bendis, after all...) 
 

EDIT: On the other hand, Paul, if you wanted to put out a rough draft for us to "tear down" as you put it, that's fine...I'm just saying nothing's going to be final until October, (or so it seems)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 02:33 pm    
By Col_Fury

Good news: Wolverine 31(pt. 6 of 6) is due out in August, not the 17th, but the 24th. Hopefully, we'll either see Nick Fury recover, or he's still hospitalized with an announcement of how long he'll be out of commission, & possibly Dum Dum handing SHIELD over to Hill. 

So we may not have to wait for Secret War 5 for everything...cross you fingers.

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 08:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
At this point, I say hold off, and we simply focus on getting everything in line up to House of M #1.  
<<<

Well, that would give folks more time to get those issue analyses in.  

It does take some doing to get the calendar prepped for posting, so I may hold off unless popular demand is strong or if Administrators need to see it to help place some of the slightly older appearances on the MCP.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 09:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
It does take some doing to get the calendar prepped for posting 
<<<

 If we know we're waiting for something, I'd rather just wait. Converting the calendar to webspeak is a process that I'd like to avoid duplicating, to the extent that it's practical. I recognize there will always be the need for edits, but I'd rather not edit, where I don't have to. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 13 Aug 2005 05:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So we wait. But I still encourage issue analysts to get their contributions in as soon as they can. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 05:31 pm    
By Col_Fury

Mulling over the New X-Men/New Avengers references, & how they could line up time-wise, it made me think about how ASM & M/K:SM might line up with New Avengers. There's a week gap between NA 6 & 7(well, the bulk of those stories, ignoring the flashbacks) Could Spider-Man have moved into Avengers Tower during this week? There may be a larger gap of time between the Sentry story & the Corruption in SHIELD/Ronin story for this to fit, but I'm going to re-read those Spider-Man books to see if this could work in that week gap in New Avengers.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 14 Aug 2005 11:38 pm    
By Col_Fury

I've re-read those Spider-man books, but I started a different subject for it because it doesn't have anything to do with 'Placement Clues for Amazing Fantasy,' or whatever this has turned into. Taking other things into account, here's an updated list, if only to give myself something to look at to see if the time references in all of the various books line up. 

Purple Man is in the Raft in Alias, pre-Disassembled 
Jailbreak #1 happens, 'referenced' in Captain America 29, FF:F 2 
Avengers Disassembled 
Time passes, adventures in the Marvel Universe! 
MTU 1-6 
Purple Man & Wrecking Crew appear in New T-Bolts 2, Wrecking Crew thrown in Raft 
Rest of New T-Bolts 2-6, EotS, AoS in Wolverine(20-31), New Invaders 
Namor goes back to Atlantis 
New T-Bolts 7 
Fantastic Four: Foes, jailbreak #2 happens in FF:F #4, builds new Vault which fails, possibly recaptures Purple Man along with a bunch of other bad guys 
Raft updates security protocols using ideas from the new Vault 
'Current Day' of Secret War, Pulse 6-9 
Time passes, more adventures in the Marvel Universe! 
Punisher 13-18 
Runaways vol 2, Wrecking Crew thrown back in Raft 
New Avengers 1 & 2, lots of villains escape in jailbreak #3, including Purple Man & Wrecker, rest of New Avengers 2-6, fb from NA 8 
Namor in pgs 1-6 of NA #7 
Spider-Man: Breakout 1-5 
MTU 7-10, 11 
ASM 515-519 
MK/SM 13-? 
New X-Men 14 
Wrecker in New Avengers 7 & 8, X-Men, FF, Inhumans, & Namor in New Avengers 8, the rest of New Avengers 7-10, Wrecker in Toxin 4 
Hellions 1 
MK/SM ?-18 
ASM 520-523 or so 
New Avengers 11-13 
Hellions 2-4 
Hercules 4 
New X-Men: Yearbook 
New T-Bolts 8-10 w/ Purple Man & Namor 
House of M 
HoM: the day After 
New X-Men 20 

After re-reading Pulse 9, the 'current day' portions of Secret War have to happen after Wolverine 20-31, because Wolverine mentions Hydra, etc. Spider-Man mentioning to Daredevil in the 'current day' of Secret War about running around in nothing but his web-shooters is either a mistake, or Spider-Man isn't comfortable telling Daredevil his web-shooters are organic now. Also, Captain America wanting to call in the Avengers was in the 'one year ago' slot, so that's my fault. In the 'current day' parts in issue 4, Cap only tries to call Iron Man, so this holds up. Also, placing it here erases the need for Nick Fury's injuries in Wolverine 20-31 to be a concern, as he's out of SHIELD after this arc, anyway. This also opens up a space for Punisher 13-18. 

I have to say, it may not be easy fitting all of this together, but at least it gives us something to talk about! But if it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 06:28 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
There's a week gap between NA 6 & 7(well, the bulk of those stories, ignoring the flashbacks) Could Spider-Man have moved into Avengers Tower during this week? 
<<<

No, I don't think he could. That would require the latter part of ASM 515 through to ASM 519 to take place in that gap. But the post-New Avengers section of ASM 515 is stretched out over quite a period of time. It begins with Tony Stark providing a research grant to wotsisname on the basis of Peter Parker's recommendation. He only does this because he knows that Peter is Spider-Man, placing this scene (at least) after NEW AVENGERS #1-6. 

Wotsisname then goes off and begins work on his project. By the end of ASM 515 he's behind on providing information, and somebody from Stark's company finally gets around to chasing Peter. There's no way he gets that far behind schedule in only a matter of days. The bulk of ASM 515-519, therefore, can't fit between NA 6-7. However, Iron Man's appearance in ASM 515 could go in that gap, in order to get things underway. (Spider-Man himself doesn't appear in the relevant pages.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 06:35 am    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
Wotsisname then goes off and begins work on his project. By the end of ASM 515 he's behind on providing information, and somebody from Stark's company finally gets around to chasing Peter. There's no way he gets that far behind schedule in only a matter of days. The bulk of ASM 515-519, therefore, can't fit between NA 6-7. However, Iron Man's appearance in ASM 515 could go in that gap, in order to get things underway. (Spider-Man himself doesn't appear in the relevant pages.) 
<<<

Aha. Good point. More brainstorming, then.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2005 08:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The bulk of ASM 515-519, therefore, can't fit between NA 6-7. However, Iron Man's appearance in ASM 515 could go in that gap, in order to get things underway.  
<<<

Indeed. Glad to know we're on the same wavelength in that regard, Paul.  

I believe the destruction of the homes of Aunt May and Peter and M.J. will end up postdating A4 11, and possibly the following story arc. The three have not yet been shown as living in Stark/Avengers Tower in A4, and that's a good thing given the passage of time in ASM 515.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Sep 2005 10:53 am    
By Somebody

[NEW TBOLTS 12 SPOILERS] 

Re: The Purple Man stuff from page 1 

Quote: 
>>>
Apparently, Zemo's been using the moonstones he got in Av/TB #6 to play around with Purple Man, bringing him out of prison while leaving an image of him behind (and occasionally sending him back when he annoyed him) while siccing him on the Tbolts. Presumably, this is intended to cover for the NAv/NTB glitch, to allow NAv 1-6 to fall between NTB #6 and #8 (although you may still need the "Purple Man's powers actually do work on Cage, and Cage only thinks he's beating PM senseless and beyond" thing). 
<<<

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Thread 16

Posted: 14 Sep 2005 08:15 am    Post subject: Helmut Zemo and John Watkins III
By BobMM

I see that a recent update has filled in Citizen V/John Watkins III's appearances. It looks like you're treating the period where Helmut Zemo possessed Watkins' mind as "appearances" by both characters, and that seems like the right approach to me. 

There are two appearances that show up on Watkins' entry but are missing from Zemo: 

ZEMO II/HELMUT ZEMO 
TB 38 
TB 39 
** TB 45 
** TB 46 
TB 47 
TB 48 

While I'm on the subject, Zemo's entry shows an appearance in SWII 7. I don't think he appears in that book; I have been through it with a magnifying glass and I don't see him.

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Posted: 14 Sep 2005 06:50 pm    
By garbonzo

I'm going to back up Bob here. I just went over SW II #7. and there is no real evidence to support Zemo is present. It could be assumed (I mean Doom and Kang are there!) but we don't accept lack of evidence as evidence.

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Posted: 14 Sep 2005 07:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The listing is on probation. This comes from the Avengers Index, where they say in two locations--for issues 270 and 275--that Zemo appears in Secret Wars II 7. So I don't think it's a typo on their part. Can anyone shed any light on *why* they might have claimed this in the Official Index? 

For what it's worth, the Master List also places Zemo in Secret Wars II 7. 


watching: paula zahn

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Posted: 14 Sep 2005 09:50 pm    
By garbonzo

There are several scenes in the comic where there are literally dozenz of villians on panel. THe problem is that only the closest two or three are well rendered. THe rest are sketches (at best) and it is left to one or two distinguishing features (doctor Octopus' armn, vulture's wing, etc.) for the reader to figure out who they are. 

There are one or tweo panels where I initially thought one of the background characters COULD be Zemo. However, upon closer look I either found that it was more likely a different character (Batroc is so poorly rendered in one panel I am only guessing it is him), or is so indistinguishable it could be anyone. 

The only reason I can see to definatively put Zemo in this issue (without actually seeing him) is if Mephisto says he has gathered EVERY super villian on the planet, or, if Zemo makes some reference to being there (then I guess we can claim one of the red shapes on any given panel was him.  

Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe we could call it a BTS?

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Posted: 15 Sep 2005 03:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's also possible that Murray Ward asked the creators for a list of the characters in SECRET WARS II and worked on the assumption that any character mentioned in the script was in the crowd somewhere. Or perhaps Zemo has a story somewhere which mentions that he's present.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Sep 2005 10:10 am    
By BobMM

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Or perhaps Zemo has a story somewhere which mentions that he's present. 
<<<

He does not.

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Posted: 15 Sep 2005 10:40 am    
By garbonzo

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It's also possible that Murray Ward asked the creators for a list of the characters in SECRET WARS II and worked on the assumption that any character mentioned in the script was in the crowd somewhere. Or perhaps Zemo has a story somewhere which mentions that he's present. 
<<<

That seems plausible. As I mentioned, these crowd scenes are soooooooooooooo poorly rendered that the MCP could list Galactus as being there and I might believe it!  

There is no reason to believe he is not there. But, we cannot assume he is just because there is no evidence against it. (See, Mods, I have been paying atention!)

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Posted: 15 Sep 2005 09:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
But, we cannot assume he is just because there is no evidence against it. 
<<<

We're not assuming, though. The Avengers Index says he's there (in two places, as Russ noted); that's all the evidence I need (personally) to identify a faceless villain somewhere in that issue as Zemo.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 17

Posted: 15 Sep 2005 06:43 pm    Post subject: SECOND TRIMESTER?!?!?
By Kevin W.
Director

MINOR SPOILERS! (in regards to Pulse #11) 



I just read Pulse #11, and the intro page had me startled and angry for a brief instant. It said that Jessica was only in her second trimester. SECOND TRIMESTER?!? Going by how long it's been since Jessica got pregnant, they should create a FOURTH trimester... 

Luckily, the story itself is content to ignore this, as Jessica's water breaks at the end of the issue. Which means this baby is going to be born in the next issue or two. Which means we're finally going to be able to sort out Jessica Jones' chronology, (it's as bad as the chronology mess up's in Secret War). 

Second trimester my butt...unless next issue, they note that the baby is being born prematurely. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 Sep 2005 09:16 pm    
By shandrakor

3 months premature? That baby'd better be a meta if it's going to survive that. 

Heck, maybe li'l baby Jones just has time manipulation powers!

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 11:33 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

To make matters worse, Ben Grimm seemingly meets Jessica for the first time in Pulse #11. Well, second time actually. Ben doesn't remember her, but Jessica says that they had met once before. Meanwhile, over in Knights 4 #22, Ben talks to her while she's "gotta be due, like, yesterday." So Jessica's comment in about having met once implies that this occurs after Knights 4 #22. However, that issue seems to suggest that this is NOT the first time Ben and Jessica meet. 

Which means that we should either ignore Ben's and Jessica's comments in Pulse about their history, or gloss over the seeming familiarity of the two in Knights 4, or drop the entirety of Knights 4 #22 somewhere in the middle of Pulse #11. 

I'm leaning towards the latter option. Dealing with new characters retroactively inserted into history is difficult to say the least, but I can GUARANTEE that someone (and it wouldn't surprise me if it were either Bendis or Sacasa) is going to write a flashback story with Ben and Jessica in her superhero days, meeting for the first time. If we place Knights 4 in the midst of Pulse, that gives us an out down the road when that initial meeting is written. 

I would further suggest placing Knights 4 #22 immediately after Pulse #11 page 18. This allows Ben Urich time to have someone do some research on D-Man, while he's looking into the Golem thing. It allows for some familiarity between Ben and Jessica since they would've recently met in the first part of Pulse #11. It also allows Ben's comment about Jessica being ready to give birth an eerie sense of propheticness. Fortunately, Knights 4 #22 is a stand-alone issue with only three characters to deal with, so there shouldn't much more impact outside Jessica's pregnancy here.

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 09:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean, the same discrepancy between PULSE 11 and FOUR 22 occurred to me, too. (Geez, they can't even keep continuity straight between issues coming out the same day -- this doesn't bode well for the ever-elusive SECRET WAR 5. But I digress...) 

I like your solution. The only problem, if you can call it that, is that both Carol Danvers and Jessica Jones are wearing the exact same clothes after the proposed gap in PULSE 11 as they were before the gap. Of course, neither woman is a fashion maven, so wearing the same stuff over and over may be routine for them, and the fact that both women repeated the same clothing on the same day can be chalked up to coincidence. (If we were talking about Janet Van Dyne, it would be another matter entirely.) 

The clothing matter is certainly minor compared to the dialog in these issues. Sean, your idea makes sense to me.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 18

Posted: 17 Sep 2005 03:31 pm    Post subject: Canonicity of Marvel Swimsuit Issues
By wolframbane

This is probably the silliest question that I have ever asked here. Are the events of the various Marvel Swimsuit issues considered canon? And is there anything that explicitly states whether they are canon or non-canon. Did the various super heroes descend upon the Savage Land, Madripoor and the Blue Area of the Moon for vacations?

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Posted: 17 Sep 2005 04:35 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Click on "Search" above, then search for "swimsuit"... 


http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=506 


watching: alabama v south carolina

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Thread 19

Posted: 18 Sep 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: Kain
By jannepie

KAIN 
*AWC 71 
*AWC 73 
*AWC 74 
AWC 93-FB 
AWC 93 
AWC 94 
AWC 95

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Thread 20

Posted: 11 Sep 2005 03:36 am    Post subject: The appearance of the Supreme Intelligence on ULCM 1
By Jopili

On Project: 

SUPREME INTELLIGENCE 
... 
WI? 28/3 
{FF 65} 
ULCM 1 
CM 16 
CM 17-FB 
... 

I propose to set ULCM 1 before FF 65: 

SUPREME INTELLIGENCE 
... 
WI? 28/3 
ULCM 1 
{FF 65} 
CM 16 
CM 17-FB 
... 

...because the briefing of the Supreme Intelligence with Capt. Marvel happened few days later the destruction of Tarsis, an alien planet, by Galactus and Silver Surfer. 
Looking at the chronology of Silver Surfer, ULCM 1 is placed before FF 48. 
From FF 48/50 on Silver Surfer was condemned on Earth. 

The sequence on the MCP: 
ULCM 1_______Galactus & Silver Surfer destroy Tarsis 
FF 48/50______Galactus & Silver Surfer on Earth 
FF 65________First appearance of the Supreme Intelligence 
ULCM 1_______Second appearance of the Supreme Intelligence 

But -to me- it's impossible that between FF 48/50 and FF 65 passed only few days. 

My hypothesis, analyzing the miniseries ULCM: 

1 BLOCK) RECRUITING CAPTAIN MARVEL FOR THE MISSION ON ABSOLOM 
>Galactus destroys Tarsis (Silver Surfer is free)___________________ULCM 1 (1:1>8:3) [GALACTUS / SILVER SURFER appearances] 
>Cut (1 day?): Capt. Marvel talk with the Colonel Lez-Tarr__________ULCM 1 (9:1>10:5) 
>Cut (1 day?): Capt. Marvel assigned to the Imperial Cruiser________ULCM 1 (11:1>17:5) 
>Cut (same day): Briefing with the Supreme Intelligence____________ULCM 1 (18:1>21:5) [SUPREME INTELLIGENCE appearance] 
>Cut (1&1/2 hours): Voyage to Absolom_________________________ULCM 1 (22:1>22:3) 

2 BLOCK) CAPTAIN MARVEL FIGHTS DEVROS 
>Cut (1 week?): Capt. Marvel fights the Skrulls____________________ULCM 1 (23:1>32:5) 
>Issue Cut (1 day?): The Imperial Guard on the Pama______________ULCM 2 (2:1>9:2) 
>Cut (same day?): Lady Deathbird talks about the Brood___________ULCM 2 (9:3>12:4) 
>Cut (1 day?): Ambush of the Brood____________________________ULCM 2 (13:1>21:6) 
>Cut (1 day?): Mar-Vell captured by the Brood____________________ULCM 2 (22:4>23:4) 
>The escape________________________________________________ULCM 2 (25:4>32:1) 
>The escape________________________________________________ULCM 2 (32:5) 
>Issue Cut (1 day): Capt. Marvel defeats Devros__________________ULCM 3 (1:1>29:3) 

HYPOTHESIS: Silver Surfer condemned on Earth___________________FF 48/50 [GALACTUS / SILVER SURFER appearance] 

3 BLOCK) CAPTAIN MARVEL RETURN TO KREE-LAR 
>Cut ("1 week"): Capt. Marvel Lost in space_______________________ULCM 3 (29:4) 
>Cut ("1 week"): Capt. Marvel Lost in space_______________________ULCM 3 (29:5) 
>Cut ("1 week"): Capt. Marvel Rescued by the Shi'Ar________________ULCM 3 (29:6>31:5) 
>Cut ("several weeks"): Capt. Marvel on Kree-Lar___________________ULCM 3 (32:1>33:3) 

HYPOTHESIS: The FF fight Sentry and Ronan______________________FF 64/65 [SUPREME INTELLIGENCE appearance] 

4 BLOCK) CAPTAIN MARVEL RECRUITED FOR THE MISSION ON EARTH 
>Cut (2 weeks?) "half a moon": Mission on Earth____________________ULCM 3 (33:4) 

>Issue Cut (same day): Mission on Earth_______________________M/SH 12 


(sorry for my poor English)

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Posted: 14 Sep 2005 04:37 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Although my initial impression, on the first reading of the series, was the same as yours, the dialogue in the end of ULCM 3 suggests that little time has passed since Mar-Vell's defeat of the Brood; there would be little reason for Una and Yon-Rogg to remain as anxious as they were for the months that would pass from FF 48-64. The only other place for a gap in the series in in the pages of ULCM 1, between the Silver Surfer/Galactus encounter and Mar-Vell's encounter with the Supreme Intelligence; Mar-Vell seems much more resigned there than he does in ULCM 3, which suggests that he's had time to settle into whatever fate awaits him. The time period of this gap isn't as explicit as is the other gap, so this is the one that can be most easily expanded, IMHO. 

-Sean

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Posted: 17 Sep 2005 02:04 am    
By Jopili

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
the dialogue in the end of ULCM 3 suggests that little time has passed since Mar-Vell's defeat of the Brood 
<<<

Sean, the quotes between " " ("1 week", "several weeks") were taken straight from the issue.

 
SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
The only other place for a gap in the series in in the pages of ULCM 1, between the Silver Surfer/Galactus encounter and Mar-Vell's encounter with the Supreme Intelligence; Mar-Vell seems much more resigned there than he does in ULCM 3, which suggests that he's had time to settle into whatever fate awaits him. The time period of this gap isn't as explicit as is the other gap, so this is the one that can be most easily expanded, IMHO. 
<<<

The first cut (between "Galactus destroys Tarsis (Silver Surfer is free)" and "Capt. Marvel talks with the Colonel Lez-Tarr") on ULCM 1 can be expanded from 1 day up to 1 week, because Mar-Vell had to report the mission to the Colonel. 
Then an order breaks the dialogue and Mar-Vell must go *immediately* on the cruiser. This cut can be expanded from 1 day up to 1 week (the distance of the cruiser). 
So, between the Silver Surfer/Galactus appearance and the Supreme Intelligence appearance the cut is *max* two weeks. 
Two weeks between FF 48/50 and FF 64/65 are few, IMHO. 

(sorry for my poor English)

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Posted: 17 Sep 2005 08:10 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Does ULCM take place on Earth? 


watching: angel

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Posted: 17 Sep 2005 05:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

No, none of the series does. 

-Sean

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Posted: 17 Sep 2005 05:46 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

So, are we assuming that the "days" and "weeks" are Earth days and weeks? 


watching: jeopardy

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Posted: 18 Sep 2005 01:05 am    
By SeanCurtin

Good point. 

-Sean

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Thread 21

Posted: 19 Sep 2005 01:34 am    Post subject: Note on Nighthawk
By cnowlin

In Nighthawk 

DEF 107-BTS 
DEF 109-BTS 
A@ 16 
S-H2 53 
DEF 110 

I think that's a typo. A@11 would match the chronologies of his fellow Defenders. 

And while I'm here, fairly insignificant note in Dr. Strange 

V&SW2 4 
DRSTR2 75 
SWII 5 
V&SW 6 
PPTSS 115 
AF 36 
M/FAN 41 
V&SW2 11 

should be V&Sw2:6

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Thread 22

Posted: 20 Sep 2005 07:52 pm    Post subject: Alpha Flight (Volume 1) Corrections
By clippertonenet

AF 2 (Alpha Flight Volume 1, Issue 2, Story 1) 
Cody, Gary (In between AF 1 and X&AF2 1) 
Thompson, Doug (Snowbirds husband  first chronological appearance on page 10  listed as AF 2) 
Smallwood, Captain Tom (Marrinas adopted father  possible addition to database  appearance listed as AF 2-FB  page 12) 
Smallwood, Gladys (Marrinas adopted mother  possible addition to database  appearance listed as AF 2-FB  page 12) 
Smallwood, Dan (first in chronology  listed as AF 2-FB  page 13) 

AF 2/2 (Alpha Flight Volume 1, Issue 2, Story 2) 
Box II/Jerry Jaxxon (first chronological appearance  listed as AF 2/2) 

AF 3 (Alpha Flight Volume 1, Issue 3, Story 1) 
MASTER/ESHU (list as first chronological appearance  AF 3-FB) 

AF 3/2 (Alpha Flight Volume 1, Issue 3, Story 2) 
Wolverine (unsure of where to put in chronology  maybe right before AF SPECIAL) 

AF 4 (Alpha Flight Volume 1, Issue 4) 
Correct 

AF 5 (Alpha Flight Volume 1, Issue 5) 
Correct 

AF 5/2 (Alpha Flight Volume 1, Issue 5) 
Hudson, Heather (first chronological appearance  list as AF 5/2) 
McNeil, Ramsey (Heather Hudsons dad  first appearance  list as AF 5/2) 
McNeil, Claire (Heather Hudsons mom  first appearance  list as AF 5/2)

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Thread 23

Posted: 17 Sep 2005 02:35 pm    Post subject: Spidey's identity and the FF
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just an observation for those of you trying to organize Spidey's appearances... 

In the recent Spider-Man/Human Torch #5, Spider-Man's secret identity is revealed to the Fantastic Four. Prior to this, only Reed knew. This means that SM/HT 5 (actually SM/HT 5-FB) occurs before two comics that came out this week: 

Marvel Knights Spider-Man #18 -- in this story, Aunt May saves the day when the Tiller destroys part of the top floor of the Baxter Building while the FF are away. After the FF return, Ben and Sue want to know who the old lady was who stopped Ethan, and Spidey and his fellow Avengers scramble to keep her identity secret lest Peter Parker be connected to Spidey. (Note: This means that Reed was a little careless earlier -- in M/KSM 16 -- when he called Spidey on a cell phone and referred to him as "Parker" in front of his teammates; I guess they didn't hear.) 

Spider-Man Unlimited v2 #11/2 -- In this story, Peter Parker must use his agility to save some students from falling debris in a battle between the Thing and Absorbing Man. Peter is afraid that this display has tipped the Thing off to his secret identity. 


Fortunately, some temporal references back this up: 

First, M/KSM 13-18 take place at the beginning of "summer school." 

Then, ASMU2 11/2 takes place sometime during "Sept. 5th through 23rd," the period in which the museum exhibition that Peter's class visits is on display. (This is backed up by a line by Peter's boss about his using up his sick leave "by the second month of the school term" -- placing ASMU2 11/2 at the tail end of the exhibition's run.) 

Then, following the revelation of Spidey's identity to the FF in SM/HT 5, we see the FF and Peter, M.J., and May spending time together socially. One of the scenes shows Christmas. But drat, one of the scenes shows "spring break at Ben's;" well, maybe it's an autumn break. (Can't win 'em all.)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Sep 2005 11:28 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
This means that SM/HT 5 (actually SM/HT 5-FB) occurs before two comics that came out this week: 
<<<

You mean "after" -- right? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Sep 2005 04:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

D'oh! Yeah...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 09:23 pm    
By journeyman335

I was thinking this as well, it may be a good idea to make a list of when all the different heros have revieled their identities to different people. I thought Spider-Man told aunt may about his identity in ASM 400, but apparently he just did in in a recent run of Strazinski's ASM. 

Other characters like the "In-again, Out-again" Iron Man, and Captain America have public identities, but I dont think it started out that way. 

I'm not involved enough into comics to figure this one out, but if anyone has some insight or can point me in the dirrection of some refferences, it would be much appreciated. 

Mitch

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 10:09 pm    
By John Simons

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Then, following the revelation of Spidey's identity to the FF in SM/HT 5, we see the FF and Peter, M.J., and May spending time together socially. One of the scenes shows Christmas. But drat, one of the scenes shows "spring break at Ben's;" well, maybe it's an autumn break. (Can't win 'em all.) 
<<<

When I originally read this issue, I looked at the photos at the end as stuff that could happen sometime after the initial dinner, in effect "flashforwards" to get-togethers which will take the rest of the MU awhile to catch up to. Unless something drastic happens in the lives of the characters in the next year of Marvel Time to make this impossible, perhaps you could consider the "spring break" and "Christmas" to refer to the year subsequent to the one you are currently working on?
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 10:40 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

journeyman335 wrote: 
>>>
I thought Spider-Man told aunt may about his identity in ASM 400, but apparently he just did in in a recent run of Strazinski's ASM. 
<<<

You know that "May" died in ASM 400, right? 


watching: angel

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Posted: 21 Sep 2005 05:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
perhaps you could consider the "spring break" and "Christmas" to refer to the year subsequent to the one you are currently working on? 
<<<

Projecting flash-forwards that far in advance is always a risky proposition, given all the things that are likely to happen in the next couple of years' worth of comics. For example, that "spring break at Ben's" obviously occurs while the Thing is flush with money. Any bets on how long he'll be rich? 

The flash-forwards are likely to work best in the near future, not the far future. I can see making the Christmas the one following the summer in which some current comics are set, but I can't see making it the Christmas of the following year, all for the sake of the "spring break" reference. I think we'll be forced to chalk that reference up as topical.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 24

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 05:56 pm    Post subject: A4 #10 and the Sentry's past (spoilers!)
By jephyork
Director

Okay, so here's what I took from a quick Byrne-steal of New Avengers #10: 

The Sentry has psychic powers. They cause him to periodically fight against Mastermind's brainwashing, and try to get the world (including himself) to remember him. 

One of these subconscious attempts resulted in psychically filling writer Paul Jenkins' head with snippets of his past -- snippets which Paul then wrote into comic books. 

None of the flashbacks we've seen to the Sentry's past are manufactured or false. They all happened -- the reason some look like comic books in his memory is because they WERE published as comic books. 

Currently, although Cloc is still broadcasting and most of the world still can't remember the Sentry, he has used his own psychic powers to counteract Cloc's broadcast in the minds of Reed Richards, his wife Lindy, and himself. Only these three -- and Cloc, presumably -- remember his previous career as the Sentry. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, he's a new hero. 

"Stark Tower" turned out to be the Watchtower. I'm unsure if Tony built Stark Tower around the Watchtower, or whether he just *thinks* he did. Jarvis can see the Watchtower spires, so it's likely the rest of the world can too. 

(By the way, the "New Avengers / Fantastic Four" military giveaway comic must occur after this issue, as the Sentry is part of the team. However, that issue occurs on the top floor of Stark Tower, with no sign of the Watchtower spires. I wonder if there's some way to cloak or retract them?) 


Let me know if I got anything wrong ... but it looks to me like none of the previous "Sentry" series has been invalidated by this story arc. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 07:17 pm    
By Antonio Gavio

Quote: 
>>>
(By the way, the "New Avengers / Fantastic Four" military giveaway comic must occur after this issue, as the Sentry is part of the team. However, that issue occurs on the top floor of Stark Tower, with no sign of the Watchtower spires. I wonder if there's some way to cloak or retract them?) 
<<<

There must be because Stark Tower appears without the Watchtower on top of it in House of M #1, which is also supposed to occur after NA # 10.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 07:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Cool. 

I just realized -- this arc tells us that Mastermind brainwashed the Sentry to make everyone forget him. He's also made him think that if he uses his powers, the Void will appear and attack. 

This kind of clashes with the original story that, because the Void would attack if the Sentry used his powers, Reed Richards created a memory-erasure device to make the world forget the Sentry's existence. 

So: 

Either that story is an implanted memory, and the Sentry has unknowingly been using his own psychic powers to make the world forget him, all these years, or: 

Mastermind's brainwashing came just before that story. He brainwashed the Sentry, made him believe that using his powers would cause the Void to attack. The Sentry then used his powers -- the Void subsequently attacked -- and the Sentry urged Reed Richards to create a device that would erase the world's memories of him. Just as Mastermind had brainwashed him to do. 

I like the second option. If we go with the first option, not only is a portion of the flashback sequence in the Sentry series invalidated, but if Reed Richards never actually created a memory-erasure device -- then the end of the Sentry series, where he repairs it, makes no sense. 

Whereas, if we go with the second option, none of the Sentry series gets invalidated -- and we know to place the Mastermind-brainwashing flashback right before the FB where the Void attacks and Reed and co. decide to create a memory-erasure device. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 09:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Whereas, if we go with the second option, none of the Sentry series gets invalidated -- and we know to place the Mastermind-brainwashing flashback right before the FB where the Void attacks and Reed and co. decide to create a memory-erasure device.  
<<<

That would appear to be the obvious chronology. My understanding is that the Void is a creation of the Sentry that was brought into being because of Mastermind's messing with Sentry's mind. The Void can't attack before he's been created.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Sep 2005 06:17 am    
By jephyork
Director

The Void has been the Sentry's nemesis since the Silver Age. There's a FB in Sentry #1 to the Void fighting the Sentry and the founding Avengers. 

The Sentry's always been a multiple-personality. My suggestion is that Mastermind's brainwashing occured just before the Void's attack on Manhattan that killed a million people (shown in FB in "Sentry vs. the Void") -- the attack that led Reed and the Sentry to come to the conclusion that they should erase the Sentry's existence. 

Mastermind didn't create the Void -- he just manipulated events to make the Sentry erase himself, and planted the fear that, if he ever tried to come back, the Void would immediately return and attack. 

Preview pages and solicit text from the upcoming Sentry v2 series show that the Void still exists. Their relationship isn't as simple as "if the Sentry uses his powers, the Void will return" -- and what I'm saying is, the only reason it worked that way in the first Sentry series was because of Mastermind. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Sep 2005 07:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Their relationship isn't as simple as "if the Sentry uses his powers, the Void will return" -- and what I'm saying is, the only reason it worked that way in the first Sentry series was because of Mastermind.  
<<<

Ah, I see. I wonder...did Mastermind know that the Sentry was the Void, or did the fear of "the devil" that Mastermind implanted in Sentry's mind simply translate in Bob's mind into "the Void will return?"
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 25

Posted: 24 Sep 2005 04:59 am    Post subject: Mutant Massacre problem!
By david

Just been looking at Nightcrawler & Shadowcat's timeline during the Mutant Massacre and I noticed a small problem. 

So far, the MCP has their timelines like this: 
Nightcrawler- 
Uncanny 210. 
Uncanny Annual 10. 
Uncanny 211. 
New Mutants 46 
Uncanny 212-213. 

Shadowcat - 
Uncanny 210. 
Uncanny Annual 10. 
New Mutants 45. 
Uncanny 211. 
New Mutants 46. 
Uncanny 212-213. 

Now why is this annual placed at the start of the massacre for him & the annual / New Mutants 45 for her?  They had to deal with Rachel's 
vanishing act [issue 209].

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Posted: 24 Sep 2005 09:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

What? 

Are you saying that the Annual and NM #45 don't fit between Uncanny #210-211? 

You're going to have to explain why a little better than you have. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Sep 2005 09:41 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Quote: 
>>>
Now why is this annual placed at the start of the massacre for him & the annual / New Mutants 45 for her? 
<<<

Uh...because they're two different characters? 

I don't understand your problem. The annual occurs between UX 210 and 211 for both characters. 

Rephrase your question to more clearly state the problem. For instance, 


Quote: 
>>>
They had to deal with Rachel's vanishing act [issue 209]. 
<<<

has no meaning, in the context of your post. 


watching: gameday

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Thread 26

Posted: 23 Sep 2005 03:32 pm    Post subject: real people
By scottandrewhutchins

Gerald Ford has an entry, but Defenders Annual #1 is not listed. 

Also, Adolf Hitler appears in HTD 13 & 14 using the name "Dr. Reich." He is revealed to be Hitler in the last panel of #14.

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Posted: 23 Sep 2005 04:55 pm    
By Enda80

The Pauline Plunderer was shown to bea snivelling synchophant of the actual Adolf: Howard the Duck showed that that was in fact Hitler's dentist (or at least someone who though he was Hitler's dentist), not Hitler (as the Hate-Monger or otherwise). 

A soul fragment resembling Hitler was seen in Hell's Angel. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/drreich.htm 

Howard the Duck II#4/2 

The man who would become known as Dr. Reich served as the dentist to Adolf Hitler. When Hitler died, it was this man who identified Hitler's body in its burned out bunker by his dentures. So obsessed was this man by his Fuhrer that he removed his own teeth and replaced them with Hitler's dentures. After some time, he came to believe himself to actually be Hitler. 

Not much is known about the decades following World War II. Dr. Reich was first seen in the modern era as the much-shadowed director of Sauerbraten Mental Health Facility, where he was served by nurse Barbara, who was also apparently his lover. Dr. Reich, with assistance from Rev. Yuc, investigated the superhuman mental powers of an inmate Winda Wester. This involved an attempted exorcism and a peripheral encounter with Howard the Duck and Daimon Hellstrom, the Son of Satan. Following these events, Reich, Barbara, and Yuc vacated Sauerbraten and relocated to Rev.Yuc's private university.

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Posted: 24 Sep 2005 09:42 am    
By jephyork
Director

Maybe Dr. Reich founded Erewhon.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Sep 2005 11:20 am    
By scottandrewhutchins

No wonder Steve Gerber hated this series and tried to write it off as having occured in Howard's head! 

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Thread 27

Posted: 25 Sep 2005 05:23 pm    Post subject: Beta Ray Bill in Thor #355
By Ant-Man

Beta Ray Bill's appearance in Thor #355 is not listed. 
He is shown touring New York City with Sif.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 28

Posted: 30 Aug 2005 11:34 am    Post subject: Daredevil in Secret War
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm jumping the gun a bit and trying to restructure the calendar to allow for Secret War. 

Logan's next appearance after W3 31 should be PULSE 9, which ties into the current day segments of SECWAR, because he's going on about being raped in the Enemy of State storyline. He hasn't come to terms with the experience, and that should put PULSE 9 before any of Logan's other post-Agent of SHIELD appearances. 

Also, A4 1 needs to occur after the current-day segments of SECWAR, given Fury's likely fate and the fact that there's an acting SHIELD director in that first A4 story arc. Enemy of the State is noted in A4, so things look good. Earlier in the day of A4 1, Logan is at the Xavier Institute to receive the phone call from Scorcher about Sauron's planned Raft breakout (as referenced in A4 5). So he apparently returned to the Institute after months of being away BTS sometime between PULSE 9 and A4 1. 

So placement between W3 31 and A4 1 nails the current parts of SECWAR, but what about the flashbacks to the Latveria mission which presumably occurred exactly a year ago? 

The mission has to occur after FF 509, since Lucia Von Bardas is head of Latveria, and it has to occur before A 500, since Hawkeye is considered as a possible mission operative. Unfortunately, these references likely place the mission during that "long time" before DD2 59 in which Matt Murdock was not assuming his Daredevil identity. Question: is it possible that Matt would have accepted Fury's mission during that period of time?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 07:40 pm    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
Question: is it possible that Matt would have accepted Fury's mission during that period of time? 
<<<

Sure, it's possible. Matt owes Nick Fury a few favors, so it's actually pretty likely. Nick used SHIELD to get Matt his law practice back around DD 300, & Nick helped Matt out that *other* time his secret identity got out, claiming Matt was doing undercover SHIELD work.(or something) Fury has offered Matt full-time SHIELD positions in the past, but he's always declined. 

So even though Matt declared 'there's no Daredevil,' looking at Nick & Matt's history, I'd say that Matt would make an exception. 

Keep in mind, this is conjecture on my part, a convenient theory. Until the end of the current DD arc, & Secret War 5 comes out, I don't think we'll know for sure, if even then.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 08:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

And I suppose that Matt Murdock wasn't actually "Daredevil" in Fury's mission. I don't think any of the operatives were costumed (at least not yet) as it's a black-ops-type mission. So it could still be true in DD2 59 that it's been a "long time" since Matt wore the costume even if SECWAR occurs in the period before DD2 59.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 01:29 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Allright, first things first. Just so you know, Paul, my review of Arana: Heart of the Spider should be up this weekend sometime. After that, I hope to get my chronology review for DD2 #71-75 up within the next two weeks. I also plan on putting up a review for DD: Father #2, (which just came out)...that miniseries is coming out so slowly, I might as well review the issues one at a time, instead of waiting for the miniseries to finish. 

So, since I'm doing all this preperation for my DD reviews, let me just use this thread as a chance to lay out what problems I'm encountering. 

The problem is with DD2 56-60. That story arc establishes the following points on a timeline for Daredevil's character: 

Point #1: DD2 50 occurs, in which DD beats up the Kingpin, (who ends up in jail) and DD declares himself the new Kingpin. In DD2 56, Ben Urich says that it's been, "Almost a year to the day when Matt Murdock took control of the Kitchen." (which is a reference to DD2 50). 

Point #2: According to DD2 56, DD spends the next "six weeks" fighting crime non stop. Ben Urich narrates that "they say Matt Murdock disappeared for this. It was just Daredevil." Ben later narrates, "And as quickly as it started...that's how quickly it ended. Matt Murdock reappeared." 

Point #3: Now while it is never specifically said that Matt is never in costume after that piont, it is strong implied that Matt has given up being DD, (because Hell's Kitchen has been cleaned up). Matt is shown sporting a goatee during this period, which highlights the fact that he isn't wearing the costume, (because you could clearly a goatee on Daredevil's face if he was in costume). In DD2 60, Matt tells the Yakuza boss, "And when all's said and done, all you really did was get me back in costume." 

Point #4: Also, in DD2 57, Ben narrates that the Yakuza attack on Matt is the first time since Matt declared himself the Kingpin that someone's made a bid to overthrow Matt, and become the new rulers of Hell's Kitchen. 

But when all is said and done...this. just. can't. work. Later issues of DD2 and other DD appearances go out of their way to contradict this storyline. I mean, we should probably try to make the above scenario work, (when possible), but there are lots of things that contradict it. 

First, it's apparent that Matt didn't really have a goatee ALL of the time during the period between the "six weeks" and DD2 59, (when he supposedly starts wearing the costume again). DD2 74 shows a brief flashback to Matt and Milla's wedding, and Matt doesn't have a goatee at the wedding. So there have been times wherein Matt was clean shaven during the '1 year' gap. 

DD2 #71-75 also shows, (in flashback) that Matt DID assume the costume at least once after the "six week" period, and before DD2 59. In the flashback, Milla, (who's married to Matt at this point) calls up Matt to let her know that the Jester is robbing a bank. She tells Matt to put his costume on and go stop him. So, yes, Bendis is contradicting himself. Go figure.  

Thus, it stands to reason, if Matt broke his self imposed "ban against being in the DD costume" once, he probably did it other times, when deemed neccesary. 

Now, about what you were saying about Matt's appearance in "Secret War". 


Quote: 
>>>
Question: is it possible that Matt would have accepted Fury's mission during that period of time? 
<<<

Is it possible that he would accept it since it's Nick Fury twisting his arm to go? Sure. But then, look at Secret War #2: Matt is in his DD costume when we first see him, having just busted a couple of "drug-addled teenagers" who were stealing an old lady's purse. He reappears as Matt Murdock back at his law office to find Nick Fury waiting for him. So I think it's strongly implied that this is before the "six weeks" period, as Matt's totally in costume for that, and not in costume again after that. But then, we come back to the fact that Matt broke his ban against being in the DD costume when he went to fight the Jester. So if he did that, maybe he could do so to fight a couple of teenagers stealing an old lady's purse in Secret War #2. I personally think that goes against the intent of Bendis' storyline, but it is possible, (if all other calender placement fails). 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't think any of the operatives were costumed (at least not yet) as it's a black-ops-type mission. 
<<<

Aren't they all in costume in that flashback in Peter's head as seen in Secret War #3? 

Now for other appearances: 

DD vs. Punisher: I'll give a full review once the miniseries finishes up in a couple of months, but things to take note of: 

Well, for starters, I'm not certain where to place this yet. The solicitations for it seemed to indicate it happens in the 'one year' gap, as there is a power vacuum since the Kingpin has been overthrown. This miniseries clearly does occur after DD overthrows the Kingpin, (there are references to that). But this miniseries shows Hammerhead and the Jackal, (old Spiderman villians) making a bid for Hammerhead to become the new Kingpin of New York. That somewhat contradicts Ben Urich's claim that the Yakuza attack on Matt is the first time any criminal's made an attempt to retake Hell's Kitchen. And Matt does appear as a lawyer at his law office in public, so I think that rules out this happening during the 'six week' period. There is no mention of Milla Donovan, or of Matt being married though. Either this happens after DD2 59, (when DD starts wearing the costume again), or the gang war between Hammerhead and other gangs here makes for the "special circumstances" for which Matt resumed using the costume during the 'one year' gap. We'll just have to wait and see, but it could probably go either way at this point. 


Paul, where did you place DD: Father #1 on the calender again? I just got DD: Father #2, and there's a couple of references to take note: It is strongly implied in this issue that Matt's identity is public in the press. Thus, this is a 'present day' miniseries, not a 'timeless' miniseries. Matt does appear at his law office as a lawyer in public, meaning this can't be placed during the "six weeks" period, (because supposedly there was no appearances by Matt Murdock in public during that period). There is no mention of Milla Donovan though, and Matt's sleeping alone at his house. Also, Jessica Jones makes an appearance in this issue, and she refers to herself as a 'private investigator'. That would place this storyline as happening before "The Pulse #1" right? Because in Pulse #1, Jameson hires her as a Daily Bugle contributor. She's also clearly not visibly pregnant in this issue. 

Full chronology reviews for the recent DD issues is coming soon, but what I've posted here in this thread is the basics of what we're looking at. I just posted this to give you a heads up.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 06:15 pm    
By Somebody

For the record - what's the hell is up with the Jackal in DD/Punisher? I only glanced at it, but there's a guy in a 70s-style Jackal costume being referred to as "Professor", and is, I presume, intended to be Miles Warren. 

Of course, Warren reengineered himself into a Jackal-human hybrid and died in Maximum Clonage: Omega. 

Is it twistable into a new-Jackal, or should we just write it off as another Warren clone? (there's three already - the one who died in ASM 150; the original Carrion; and Warren Miles, the Gwen clone's husband, who died in Web 125)

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 08:23 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
So, yes, Bendis is contradicting himself. Go figure.  
<<<

Knowing Bendis, I suspect his reply would be, "Read the story again, knowing what you know about the Scarlet Witch." 


watching: newsnight

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 10:27 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
For the record - what's the hell is up with the Jackal in DD/Punisher? I only glanced at it, but there's a guy in a 70s-style Jackal costume being referred to as "Professor", and is, I presume, intended to be Miles Warren. 

Of course, Warren reengineered himself into a Jackal-human hybrid and died in Maximum Clonage: Omega. 

Is it twistable into a new-Jackal, or should we just write it off as another Warren clone? (there's three already - the one who died in ASM 150; the original Carrion; and Warren Miles, the Gwen clone's husband, who died in Web 125) 
<<<

Another clone. It certainly can't be a different guy calling himself "The Jackal", because this version of the Jackal makes reference to his history with the Punisher...he even goes so far as to claim he "molded him into what he is today."
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 05:56 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I think it would be less of a kludge to have this be the original Jackal than to declare this to be yet another clone, unless there's in-story evidence suggesting otherwise. 

-Sean

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 06:39 pm    
By Somebody

So why has he reverted to human, after being declared (quote) "he's very dead - there's no doubt about that" (unquote). 

I think calling it another clone is a damn sight simpler than jumping through hoops with triple-backward somersaults.

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 07:11 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
So why has he reverted to human, after being declared (quote) "he's very dead - there's no doubt about that" (unquote). 
<<<


What's the source of the quote, and who said it? 

I haven't read the book in question, but is there any evidence in the books that it's a clone? I'm a little nervous about taking it upon ourselves to declare it's a clone. I'd rather resurrect a (presumed) dead character, if it appears to be the intent of the story that it is indeed the Jackal. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 07:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
But when all is said and done...this. just. can't. work. Later issues of DD2 and other DD appearances go out of their way to contradict this storyline. I mean, we should probably try to make the above scenario work, (when possible), but there are lots of things that contradict it. 
<<<

Argh! Grrr! Ack! (I wouldn't dream of putting a "h" in front of that last exclamation...  ) 

Kevin, I think I'll want until I digest your upcoming issue analyses to deal with the DD in Secret War conundrum. Thanks for the heads-up. 


Quote: 
>>>
Paul, where did you place DD: Father #1 on the calender again? 
<<<

I didn't. Maybe I'll be in a better position to do this after your DD:F 2 analysis is up.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 11:33 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I haven't read the book in question, but is there any evidence in the books that it's a clone? I'm a little nervous about taking it upon ourselves to declare it's a clone. I'd rather resurrect a (presumed) dead character, if it appears to be the intent of the story that it is indeed the Jackal. 
<<<

You do have a point. It's just that, in the case of a character like the Jackal, we actually have a means of explaining how he keeps coming back from the dead, (lots and lots of clones). Compare that to some of the characters resurrected by other writers with no explanation, (like Bendis did with some of the characters from the prison break in New Avengers #1 and 2). 

But you're right, there is no specific evidence declaring this is actually a clone, (as of yet). Thus, I suppose we would assume this is the original Miles Warren, still alive and kicking somehow.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 05:35 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Since the character refers to his previous involvement with the Punisher, I think there's absolutely no doubt that it's meant to be the original Jackal. I can't see any basis in the story itself for declaring the character to be a clone rather than a resurrection - and it's not as if the Marvel Universe isn't full of resurrection.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 08:21 am    
By Marc-Oliver Frisch

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
So, yes, Bendis is contradicting himself. Go figure.  
<<<


Not necessarily. The fact that Ben Urich narrates actually leaves an easy out: He's wrong.
_________________
Marc-Oliver Frisch 
POPP'D! -- Comikado -- Supercritical 

Updated almost daily.

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 09:01 am    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Since the character refers to his previous involvement with the Punisher, I think there's absolutely no doubt that it's meant to be the original Jackal.  
<<<

Technically, all clones of the Jackal would recall having a "history" with Punisher (which sadly rules out his son from http://www.alphaflight.net/issue_summaries/summary_v1_114.php). I've heard mention that he has a "disfigured face", sounds like either a bit of the clone degeneration, or someone's trying to claim this is the very original Warren, scarred from the Mets Stadium explosion that "killed" him. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I can't see any basis in the story itself for declaring the character to be a clone rather than a resurrection - and it's not as if the Marvel Universe isn't full of resurrection. 
<<<

Doctor Doom gets blowed up to bits in "Fantastic Four #whatever". He then shows up a few years later in "Book about character he had one whole meeting with, written by someone who has never written for Marvel before #whichever". No mention of the blowing up, he's just around. What's any logical Marvelite gonna think when reading that story? That it's a Doombot. Warren's "doombots" are his endless army of clones. It's an only natural assumption by anyone with any possible knowledge of the character, something that even the writer doesn't seem to be intending. 

But if we're gonna play dumb and say it's really him, then I say chalk it up to Scarlet Witch passing gas during House of M.

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 09:48 am    
By rhod

Seeing as how the writers intent seems to be that its the actual Jackal, I would rather assume that the 'Jackal' who died was the clone, not the character currently appearing.

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 12:49 pm    
By Somebody

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
So why has he reverted to human, after being declared (quote) "Oh, he's very dead - there's no doubt about that one" (unquote). 
<<<

What's the source of the quote, and who said it? 
<<<

Ambulanceman in Maximum Clonage: Omega. They deliberately left some doubt about Spidercide, but we see Jackal (again, reengineered into the human-jackal hybrid and explicitly said to be the real deal on numerous occasions) on his back, eyes open, concrete cracked beneath him, and then (I'd guess about 10-15 minutes later in-book, it's the next scene) we have an explicit declaration that he's dead. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I haven't read the book in question, but is there any evidence in the books that it's a clone? I'm a little nervous about taking it upon ourselves to declare it's a clone. I'd rather resurrect a (presumed) dead character, if it appears to be the intent of the story that it is indeed the Jackal. 
<<<

As JLH says, all Warren's clones (of Warren, Parker or otherwise) remember the original life (and Warren Miles, in Web #125, indeed flashes back to before he was cloned). That's not an issue. 

Otherwise, you need to explain how the character not only came back to life, but had five years of genetic reengineering undone in the process. 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
I've heard mention that he has a "disfigured face", sounds like either a bit of the clone degeneration, or someone's trying to claim this is the very original Warren, scarred from the Mets Stadium explosion that "killed" him. 
<<<

We saw the corpse of that one in the Osborn Journal (face intact).

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 01:51 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

First, let me clarify one thing: 

Quote: 
>>>
For the record - what's the hell is up with the Jackal in DD/Punisher? I only glanced at it, but there's a guy in a 70s-style Jackal costume being referred to as "Professor", and is, I presume, intended to be Miles Warren.  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Otherwise, you need to explain how the character not only came back to life, but had five years of genetic reengineering undone in the process.  
<<<

The Jackal that appears in DD vs. Punisher is not wearing a costume. His skin really is green and withered, as if burnt, (Punisher comments on "the charred remains of the face", which would imply that is his real skin). 

Moving on, I think the problem we're having trouble communicating to each other about is how this version of Miles Warren will be listed in the MCP. 

Whether this version of the Jackal is a new clone body, or the one that died in Maximum Clonage: Omega, (somehow resurrected), this is the Miles Warren persona in control of the body. 

Look at Ultron's listing, another character who keeps coming back from the dead. We're told though that Ultron simply downloaded his memories into a new construct. Ultron usually labels himself as "Ultron-6" or "Ultron-47" (or whatever), but that's just the body he's in currently. The mind in control of the body is Ultron, (and that's what gets the listing in the MCP). 

The Jackal I think is handled similar: whether this is a newly grown clone, or the dead body of the old Jackal, (somehow brougth back to life), it's clearly Miles Warren in control of the body, thus, it'll get a listing under the Jackal's entry. If Marvel later clearly states that this was a new clone body grown, it'll still get listed under The Jackal entry, (unless Marvel also clearly defines this as a seperate entity...like if the 'real' Jackal comes back at a later date, and says the figure in DD vs. Punisher was a fake...which is what the Jackal did when he explained that it was a clone of him that died back in ASM 150).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 11 Sep 2005 01:07 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
As JLH says, all Warren's clones (of Warren, Parker or otherwise) remember the original life (and Warren Miles, in Web #125, indeed flashes back to before he was cloned). That's not an issue. 
<<<

You seem to be addressing Paul O'Brien's post here, not mine. I'm asking if there's any evidence in the books that this is a clone. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Otherwise, you need to explain how the character not only came back to life, but had five years of genetic reengineering undone in the process. 
<<<

Sorry, but no, we don't. Taking it upon ourselves to explain how the character is resurrected would be just as bad as taking it upon ourselves to say that it's a clone. Explaining these things is Marvel's responsibilty, not ours. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 11:27 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I just wanted to post and update to my original post in this thread, specifically to this part: 


Quote: 
>>>
DD2 #71-75 also shows, (in flashback) that Matt DID assume the costume at least once after the "six week" period, and before DD2 59. In the flashback, Milla, (who's married to Matt at this point) calls up Matt to let her know that the Jester is robbing a bank. She tells Matt to put his costume on and go stop him. So, yes, Bendis is contradicting himself. Go figure. 
<<<

Allright, it turns out I found one small reference tying this scene down chronologically. In DD2 73, we get a passing reference that the incident between Daredevil and the Jester happened, "last week". Which I think would clearly place that flashback as happening well after DD2 59, (when Matt resumes wearing the costume). Looks like Bendis has cleared himself of this continuity glitch, (and it's my bad for not noticing the reference sooner). 

This doesn't mean that Bendis's timeframe and references are any less difficult to figure out. I've come to agree with Paul that is probably isn't a "year to the day" that has passed in DD2 56, (though it'd be cool if we could get that to line up). But I'm trying to see if it can be worked out so that Matt truly isn't in costume between the flashbacks and the present day sequence in DD2 56. 

My review for DD2 71-75 will be up later on today.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 29

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 12:31 pm    Post subject: Seaweed Man appearance missing
By shandrakor

SEAWEED MAN 
TTA 71 
TTA 72 
ROM 34 
**ROM 35

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Thread 30

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 05:43 pm    Post subject: Passage of time during pregnancy in Marvel Universe
By wolframbane

For the Marvel timeline, I had wanted to compile a list of the various characters who were pregnant within the Marvel Universe. The purpose of this is to help determine the flow of time on the Marvel Timeline. Assuming the standard pregnancy is nine months (or less on occassion, such as Sue Richards second child), it makes it possible to determine the overall timeline of when certain characters were pregnant. 

For example, according to FF Index 1, Franklin Richards was born in late August in FF Annual 6. Working back 9 months, this would indicate that Franklin was concieved in December of the previous year. This is significant to the storyline because his parents were in the Negative Zone at the time, which is one of the reasons he has such incredible latent mutant power. 

I hope to compile a list of issues that have references for: 
1/ when a child was concieved 
2/ when it as discovered the character was pregnant 
3/ when the child was born 
4/ which trimester character is in 
5/ if child was premature

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 06:47 pm    
By RLG

Although you have the months correct, Franklin is believed to have been conceived during the FF's trip to Wakanda in FF 52-54. This assertion is stated in TOMITTFF 5, in the 1st Comment for FF@ 5, which is quoted below. 

According to George O: 

"This means that Sue is approximately ten to twelve weeks pregnant in this (FF@ 5) story. This also means that that the baby was probably conceived during the Fantastic Four's vacation trip to Wakanda in FANTASTIC FOUR 52-54." 

Good luck on your project, Wolframbane!!

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 08:08 pm    
By jephyork
Director

According to 4 #21, Reed and Sue weren't doing much in the bedroom on that little getaway. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 09:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

wolframbane, word of advice...just steer clear of Jessica Jones -- that pregnancy will make your head explode. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 31

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 05:28 pm    Post subject: Chronology of President/Prime Minister/Royalty
By wolframbane

I have noticed that chronologies have been compiled for numerous 'real world' people who hold temporary positions of authority, like the US Presidents, Canadian Prime Minister, members of royalty for various countries. Because of the 'sliding timeline' within Marvel comics, the actual person who held that office within the issue may not necessarily be the person who held that office after that timeline slid forward. For example, if Ronald Reagan was shown as the US President in a specific issue of Captain America in the 1980s, but in modern retrospect this issues took place '4 years ago' on the sliding timeline, the presidency would find itself held by George W. Bush. 

Should we perhaps compile a chronology for a specific office, like the US President, by which appearances of that office are not necessarily bound to the person who is necessarily in that office at the time of the issue's publocation?

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 06:40 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul B. likes that theory -- but I subscribe to the theory that you shouldn't use the real world as evidence when looking at who's president in the MU. 

For all we know, Reagan could have been president in the MU "four years ago". 

Russ and I share a belief that the MU has a presidential election once a year.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 08:20 pm    
By Enda80

Okay, problem; there was a Silver Sable fb story, a back-up, showing her saving Jimmy Carter. The obvious intention was that a non-current office holder was involved. How do we handle that? Label him "Former Office Holder".

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Posted: 27 Sep 2005 01:58 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

It depends what the purpose of the MCP is. Is it to help people track down specific appearances of characters? Does it make a difference if the characters are fictional or based on real-world figures? My personal view is that if someone wants to find every appearance of Ronald Reagan in a Marvel Comic, they ought to be able to do that here. I don't think the sliding timeline is a huge concern for the MCP, except in cases where it causes Marvel to declare some old stories non-canon.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 27 Sep 2005 03:43 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

This is one of the inherent glitches of Marvel time, and I'm firmly of the view that there is no point trying to come up with a workable explanation. The reason why Presidents work on a real-world timeline, and the rest of the world doesn't, is simply artistic licence. This works just fine for most purposes, because you have to juxtapose stories published years or decades apart before it becomes noticeably "wrong." 

It's inevitable in a sliding timeline system that there will be elements that don't entirely make sense. I think it's best just to recognise those elements, shrug, and acknowledge them as artistic licence, rather than trying to contrive a logical explanation for the inexplicable. For the most part, trying to explain this stuff away does no good for the stories involved. 

There are really only two major exceptions: (i) reality-bending stories like SENSATIONAL SHE-HULK and some Grant Morrison-style metafiction, which can attack this stuff head-on and remain true to their own internal framwork; and (ii) characters who are still in use and whose back story has been rendered unworkable by the passage of time, such as all those Cold War characters who are completely anachronistic in a world where the FF debuted in themid-80s.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 32

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 04:16 pm    Post subject: Steeltown rockers canon?
By Enda80

Is Steeltown Rockers canon? They made references to some familiar names at least in the last issue. Of course, those could be metafictional.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 06:38 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Of course, actually telling us those names is beyond your power. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 08:10 pm    
By shandrakor

The last issue is the only one with any MU references, and that scene takes place at a comic book convention. There's nothing in the series to indicate that it takes place in the MU. 

That said, as I recently learned with Spellbinders, the rule of "lack of evidence for is not evidence against" holds true around here. I've only skimmed the series, but I don't see anything that makes it any less canon than Spellbinders is.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 08:15 pm    
By Enda80

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Of course, actually telling us those names is beyond your power. 
<<<


I only skimmed it at a store. I did not buy it.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 08:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So you remember that Marvel character names were mentioned -- but can't recall even one. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Sep 2005 08:33 pm    
By shandrakor

The cover features stamplike images of Wolverine's face and the Punisher skull and a sign for "X-Men Lookalike Contest Sat at 7:30 in the Main Auditorium" 

Page 1 has the band singing a song called "Teen Mutant" about a mutant who wishes he got his powers through a more socially acceptable means. 

3p1 has a man in a ninja turtles shirt holding an issue of Submariner. 

3p3 has long boxes in the background labeled "Silver Age" and "X-Men Box" 

That's it. After that, they leave the convention and it's back to the basic anti-coke PSA storyline they're doing.

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Posted: 27 Sep 2005 03:51 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The fact that X-Men comics exist doesn't disqualify it as taking place in the Marvel Universe. On the other hand, STEELTOWN ROCKERS is one of those books where it's really an academic question, because it doesn't interact with the rest of the MU, and none of the characters have ever turned up again.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Sep 2005 11:30 am    
By rhod

Isn't the rule 'canon unless stated or proven not to be'?

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Posted: 27 Sep 2005 12:10 pm    
By shandrakor

That's basically what I'm getting it as, yeah.

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Posted: 28 Sep 2005 11:40 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

In general, yes, but you can make a reasonable argument that any story set in a world totally devoid of fantasy elements isn't taking place in the Marvle Universe, where such things are hanging around very corner. 

But as I say, when you have a book that doesn't interact with anything else, and doesn't have any wider implications, it's ultimately irrelevant whether it's canon or not.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 33

Posted: 28 Sep 2005 01:54 pm    Post subject: MARSTON, SYLVESTER "SNAKE"
By Ant-Man

Snake Marston first appeared in Machine Man #16 as part of Baron Brimstone's Satan Squad. 
The "Snake Marston" in Daredevil #356 was revealed to be Eel II. 
- 
MARSTON, SYLVESTER "SNAKE" 
*MM 16 
M/TU 138
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 34

Posted: 29 Sep 2005 09:41 am    Post subject: Freedom Force Omissions
By captamr

In the Fall of the Mutants saga, a few members of Freedom Force are unaccounted for. 
Avalanche, Blob, and Pyro are missing from UX 224 and Avalanche is credited with a flashback in #227 where Im not even seeing a FB, just Forges temporal manifestations. 

AVALANCHE 
UX 223 
*UX 224  omit 
UX 225 
UX 226 
*UX 227-FB  omit 
NM 65 


BLOB 
UX 223 
*UX 224  omit 
UX 225 

PYRO 
UX 223 
*UX 224  omit 
UX 225
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 35

Posted: 30 Aug 2005 05:00 pm    Post subject: Ultimates v.2 #7 - help?
By poetdowns

Salut, 
I just read said issue. In the "what has gone before" text on the first page, before the story starts it says the Hulk was executed, Thor is in an asylum?! Did i blink and miss something? When did this happen? How are they even keeping Thor confined? I'll assume they whacked Hulk when he was in Banner form, but.... another thought: how come the Hulk gets killed but they don't execute any of the villians, they keep gathering them all in one place so they can break out all at once. Helping save the planet is not a mitigating factor? As opposed to Doc Ock? 

Is it just me, or are a # of stories just making less and less sense? In each of the Marvel universes. 

Regards, 
Poet

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 12:30 am    
By Col_Fury

Hello, 

Quote: 
>>>
Did i blink and miss something? 
<<<

Yes. 


Quote: 
>>>
When did this happen?  
<<<

The first six issues of this series. 

The rest of your questions are more-or-less answered in these books, hence the recap page, in case you missed those issues. 

You may also want to check out the recent Annual, which covers SHIELD's backup plans for Captain America, & will most likely be referred to in upcoming issues.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 03:00 pm
By poetdowns

Well, i read those, i just don't remember Hulk being executed, and there was Thor talking to Volstagg or talking to the air but i don't remember him being taken away anywhere. 
I'll go look thru those again, but Marvel does have a tendancy to "improvise" on the fly -so i thought i'd ask. 

Poet

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Posted: 01 Sep 2005 06:37 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

You've missed at least one issue, then, because these were the focal points of entire stories.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 36

Posted: 01 Sep 2005 02:27 am    Post subject: Wolverine/Nick Fury: Scorpio Rising
By Col_Fury

Wolverine/Nick Fury: Scorpio Rising 
W: Howard Chaykin 
D: Shawn McManus 
Published: Oct 1994 

Appearances: Col. Nick Fury, Wolverine(Logan), Scorpio III(Mikel Fury), Contessa Valentina Allegro De La Fontaine, Minister of Interior(Dmitri Cabrinovic), Minister of Foreign Affairs(Sofia Rudavsk), Minister of Industry(Josip Potiorek), Minister of Defense(Jasnia Schweik), Carpasian President Tankosic, Pavel, some SHIELD agents, some Hydra agents, lots of LMDs. 

Analysis: 
Pg. 1-2: Carpasia; The new President of Carpasia introduces his cabinet to his people. 
Pg. 3-7: Minister of Defense, Interior, Industry, Foreign Affairs, then Pres. Tankosic is killed, each on their own page, all on the same night. 
Pg. 8: Civil war breaks out in Carpasia! 
Pg. 9-10: On an artificial island built by SHIELD, Nick, Val, & some SHIELD agents are training Scorpio, who mentions the civil war in his homeland of Carpasia. 
Pg. 11-12: Mr. Pavel is a descendant of Carpasias old monarchy, & now wants to assume the throne now that the new democratic leaders are no longer in charge. He has teamed up with Hydra start the civil war Carpasia is now in. 
Pg. 13-14: Scorpio gets the Cosmic Key from storage & escapes SHIELD custody. 
Pg. 15: SHIELD agents notice that Scorpio is gone, they alert Nick Fury. One of them is a Hydra spy, who lets Hydra know that Scorpio is going back to his homeland. 
Pg. 16: Scorpio in Carpasia, fighting insurgents. 
Pg. 17-19: Wolverine in Carpasia, helping refugees. 
Pg. 20: Pavel arrives in Carpasia with some Hydra agents, he sends two female agents after Scorpio. 
Pg. 21: Nick Fury arrives in Carpasia. 
Pg. 22-27: Wolverines drinking a beer in a tavern, Nick Fury walks in. Wolverine informs him of whats new in Carpasia. Scorpio shows up & starts a fight, apparently hes still upset with Wolverine for killing his mom. The two female Hydra agents arrive & take Scorpio away. Wolverine & Nick decide to go find out where hes been taken. 
Pg. 28: We see that Hydra is mass producing LMDs in a power factory. 
Pg. 29-32: The two female Hydra agents are seducing Scorpio, then his mom walks in! She tells Scorpio to give Hydra his Cosmic Key when Nick & Wolverine break in through the window. Wolverine kills Scorpios mom, who turns out to be a LMD. Nick, Wolverine, & Scorpio escape. 
Pg. 33-34: The three of them figure out that Hydra & Pavel are funding the civil war, & theyre fighting with LMDs, not people. Scorpio tells Nick & Wolverine where the Key is, when Nick discovers a bug planted on Scorpio. Now Hydra knows where the Key is! 
Pg. 35-41: Nick, Wolverine, & Scorpio go to the Keys hiding spot & fight some Hydra agents. One of them tells where the LMD factory is, Wolverine blows it up using the Key. 
Pg. 42: Pavel & the Hydra agents are arrested. 
Pg. 43: Scorpio(or Mikel Fury, rather) is nominated President of Carpasia. 
Pg. 44: Nick & Wolverine comment on how Scorpio turned out, and drive off into the sunset. 

References: 
An editors note at the beginning says: The events of this story take place before Wolverine #75. 
As far as the main characters are concerned, the story spans a couple of days. After Mikel is nominated President,(its implied that hes nominated very quickly, being a native of Carpasia, & the guy that ended the civil war) Nick & Wolverine are looking at a newspaper with Mikel on it, meaning they left Carpasia the day after the nomination. So all in all, maybe a week. 

Wolverine/Nick Fury: Scorpio Rising is a follow up to Wolverine/Nick Fury: Scorpio Connection. Seeing as how they both have proper titles, Ill suggest the adjusted abbreviation W/NF: SC & the abbreviation W/NF: SR instead of numbering them. 

After comparing various existing chronologies, heres some placement suggestions: 

Sorpio III/Mikel Fury 
W/NF: SC 
*W/NF: SR 
FOS 1-FB 

De La Fontaine, Contessa Valentina Allegro 
NF3 47 
*W/NF: SR 
SSWP 24 

Fury, Col. Nicholas "Nick" Joseph 
XFOR 22 
C2 4-BTS 
*W/NF: SR 
X 25 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
X 24 
*W/NF: SR 
SABRE 2 

This has to happen before W2 75, & therefore before the 'Fatal Attractions' cross-over. Wolverine is having fun in Paris in SABRE 2 & 3, then he's attending to his annual mutilation of that guy in Japan in W2 175/2-FB, then he's in X 25, the start of 'Fatal Attractions.' Putting W/NF: SR before SABRE 2 almost makes it look like he's relaxing after the Carpasia 'stuff.' 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 05 Sep 2005 11:36 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quick question, because I haven't checked the books themselves... 

Should C2 4 occur before XFOR 22? My notes say that C2 4 occurs shortly before XFOR 25 and that there are no continuity breaks throughout C2 22-25.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Sep 2005 04:24 pm    
By Col_Fury

After re-reading the books in question: 

In C2 3 & 4, Bridge mentions the destruction of Cable's space station Graymalkin, in C2 4 he mentions teaming up with Fury, putting these books after X-Force 20-22. There's an editor's note at the end, saying that Cable's next appearance is in X-Force 25. 

X-Force 20-22 covers the destruction of Graymalkin, which leads directly into X-Force 23-25.(The beginning of X-Force 25 has the team returning from their adventure in X-Force 24) However, there is a break in time within X-Force 22. Between pgs. 13-20, we cut to various subplots, which don't involove any of the main characters, or Bridge.(but they do involve the Six Pack & Deadpool) Within these pgs, there has to be enough time for the members of X-Force to convert the rubble from Graymalkin into usable equipment.(shown at the end of the issue, & they're using it in the following issues) 

So, C2 4 takes place after XFOR 22 pg 13, but before XFOR 25 for all characters involved. Nicieza was writing both books at the time, & he really likes interweaving his subplots, which is why I got confused regarding various members of the Six Pack.(IE: Domino, Grizzly, etc) It looks as though he used C2 3 & 4 to let all of his subplots 'catch up' to each other, to allow for the upcoming crossover.(Fatal Attractions) The current listings in the MCP all look correct to me for Bridge, Cable, & various members of the Six Pack. 

As far as the gap in XFOR 22, pgs. 13-20, I'm not sure how long that lasts. How long does it take to convert pieces of a demolished space station into usable equipment? 

Taking this time-table into account, & the re-placement of CA 420 from the Blood Truce analysis,(which takes place after Infinity Crusade, but before Blood Ties<which includes X A 368> in Cap's chronology) here's a revised listing for Nick Fury: 

Fury, Col. Nicholas "Nick" Joseph 
XFOR 22 
C2 4-BTS 
**CA 420 (from here) 
*W/NF: SR 
X 25 
**CA 420 (moved here) 
A 368 

Hopefully that answers your question, it raised a few for myself as I'm sure you can see. Thanks for the feedback!
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 07 Sep 2005 05:58 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for clearing that up, Col_Fury. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 37

Posted: 09 Sep 2005 01:33 am    Post subject: M/CP 119/3 & 120/3: Constrictor
By Col_Fury

Marvel Comics Presents 119/3 
"Doing the Toe Jam" pt. 1 
"Home is Where the Hitmen Are" 
W: Paula Foye 
D: Mark Powers 
Published: Jan 1993 

Appearances: Constrictor(Frank Payne), Joey "Toe Jam" Tortellini, Joey Tortellini(his son), the kid's mom. 

Synopsis: 
pg. 1-2: Constrictor is at a casino, getting a job from Joey "Toe Jam" Tortellini. He wants the Contrictor to kidnap his son from his ex-wife. Constrictor starts driving to Maine. 
pg. 3-5: The following morning, he arrives in Maine. He gets some crappy directions from some locals, eventually finds the ex-wife's address. He follows her & the kid to a grocery store, gets the kid. That night, they arrive back at the casino. 
pg. 7-8: Toe Jam pays Constrictor, but a mob hit happens! Constrictor grabs the kid & jumps out the window. 

Marvel Comics Presents 120/3 
"Doing the Toe Jam" pt. 2 
"the High Road, the Low Road, the Back Roads" 
W: Paula Foye 
D: Mark Powers 
Published: Jan 1993 

Appearances: Constrictor(Frank Payne), Col. Nick Fury, Joey "Toe Jam" Tortellini, Joey Tortellini(his son), the kid's mom, 2 federal agents. 

Synopsis: 
pg. 1: Constrictor & the kid are still falling from the window. 
pg. 2-3: They get in Constrictor's van & drive off. They're followed by Toe Jam & 2 federal agents.(wha...?) Constrictor runs Toe Jam off the road, the feds keeps following, but "at a distance." "Somewhere off the New Jersey Turnpike..." car problems. 
pg. 4-5: Constrictor & the kid are on a bike! They stop at a diner to rest, but Constrictor gets into a fight. 
pg. 6-8: The feds show up! So does Toe Jam! Toe Jam slaps his kid, which reminds Constrictor of his own dad slapping him, which is shown to us in a FlashBack.(pg7pn2) Constrictor decides to beat up Toe Jam to teach him a lesson, but he's stopped by Nick Fury! Nick brought the kid's mom, everybody's happy. Nick offers Constrictor his SHIELD job back. 

Constrictor/Frank Payne/"Frank Schlicting" 
*M/CP 120/3-FB pg7pn2 
NF3 36-FB 
... 
NF3 36 
*M/CP 119/3 
*M/CP 120/3 
CA 412 

Fury, Col. Nicholas 'Nick' Joseph 
XCAL 56 
*M/CP 120/3 
DLOK2 17 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Thread 38

Posted: 30 Aug 2005 10:12 am    Post subject: Katrina damage
By ADMINISTRATOR

It looks like I've suffered some damage from Katrina (Katrina was much more vicious that Ivan or Dennis). One of my boxes has taken some water damage, and it appears quite a few of my Marvel Comics Presents are unsalvageable. 

If anyone can provide analysis of any of the M/CP from 119 to 175, I would appreciate it. 


watching: katrina the teenage bitch

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 10:38 am    
By Ant-Man

I have all of those issues, and I would be happy to try to help out. 
If anyone else has them and would like to make arrangements to split the task, that would be great. 
(200+ stories can be a little overwhelming) 

Was your comic book damage limited to that one box?
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 10:43 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It appears so. There was some wind damage to the roof last night, which led to a leak during the night. I lost some other issues of M/CP, but they're already in the Project. 


watching: a big eater hiring a nurse and teacher

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 04:54 pm    
By Col_Fury

Sorry to hear about the damage. At least it wasn't your recently completed 'Holy Grail' Sgt. Fury's! 

I also own all of these M/CP issues, & would be happy to help. How would you like to split it up?
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 30 Aug 2005 05:25 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks. I do appreciate the thought, but it's not really that big a deal. What it all boils down to is, they're just funny books. 

I did, though, want to let everyone know that some books that I had previously declared off limits for Issue Analysis were now being openly solicited. 


watching: wcft news

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Posted: 07 Sep 2005 09:47 pm    
By Col_Fury

M/CP 119 starts a new set of stories, with the exception of the Wolverine/Venom story. W/V is part 3 of 6 in #119, so I'm assuming that whenever this is analysed, pts 1 & 2 of W/V from issues 117 & 118 will need an analysis, also. 

Ant-Man: It looks like it's you and me, buddy. M/CP 149 ends a set of continued stories, & M/CP 150 starts a new set, giving us a clean break. If this works for you, how does this sound: I can grab 119-149, leaving 150-175 for you. This seems to be the easiest way to split it up.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 01:56 am
By Col_Fury

I've done two shorts from M/CP in a 'character' format. If this works for everybody I'll post reviews in this fashion, ie: each M/CP story in it's own post. The Ghost Rider/Cloak & Dagger 4 parter in one post, the She-Hulk 4 parter in another post, etc. 

Most likely, I won't get any more analysed for another week, I'm getting ready to go to my annual SunCoast Manager's Conference. The plane leaves on Sunday morning, Sept. 11, & I won't be back until Thursday night, Sept. 15. I may get one or two more up before then, we'll see what happens. 

If anyone has a format that they'd rather see these in, let me know. Thanks!
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 05:45 am    
By Ant-Man

I'm going to try and get a few of these analyzed soon. 

I work for State Farm, and we've been extremely busy since the hurricane, so I'm spending more time at the office. 

I'll try to get to it ASAP...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 02:37 pm
By SKleefeld
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Thanks. I do appreciate the thought, but it's not really that big a deal. What it all boils down to is, they're just funny books. 
<<<

Yeah, but wind damage to the roof is a tad more important, I should think! 

For what it's worth, I'm sorry you took a hit at all. I'm glad, though, that it was minimal. Still, LMK if there's anything I can do.

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Posted: 09 Sep 2005 06:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

True, but in light of all the suffering that Kartrina has caused for everyone else, I didn't want to sound like, "Poor me. I lost some comic books." 

The roof damage is obviously a concern, but a roof is still just...stuff. 


watching: paula zahn

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Thread 39

Posted: 09 Sep 2005 01:00 am    Post subject: M/CP 119/4: Wonder Man
By Col_Fury

Marvel Comics Presents #119/4 
"the Exclusive" 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Pete McDonell 
Published: Jan 1993 

Appearances: Wonder Man(Simon Williams), Neal Saroyan, Mojo, Major Domo, Minor Domo, the Agent. 

Synopsis: 
pg. 1-2: Wonder Man bursts into his agents(Neal) office wearing 'Dark Wonder Man' clothes. He's upset & wants a costume change, but Neal says it's in the contract. Wonder Man fires Neal, then runs into a kid in the hallway who wants his autograph. 
pg. 3-4: The kid is actually 'the Agent'! Wonder Man has signed a contract with Mojo, the Agent takes Wonder Man to Mojoworld & Neal follows them. 
pg. 5-6: Mojo arrives with Major & Minor Domo, the 'boys from the continuity department' are fixing the scenery. Mojo informs Wonder Man that he has signed a 'livestime' contract. Unhappy with Wonder Man's look, Mojo turns him into a woman. Wanting to call him 'Wonder Woman,' he decides to turn him back to avoid copyright infringement. 
pg. 7: Later... Mojo is mortified by Wonder Man's acting. 
pg. 8: Mojo releases Wonder Man from the contract, sends them back to Earth. 

References: 
Editor's notes: In reference to 'Dark Wonder Man,' see Wonder Man #13. 
In reference to Mojo, this story takes place before X-Men #9. 

This issue was published after WM2 15, the last appearance of Wonder Man's doppleganger(who does not appear here), & after the end of Infinity War. So... 

Wonder Man/Simon Williams 
IW 6 
*M/CP 119/4 
WM2 16 

Saroyan, Neal 
WM@ 1/3 
*M/CP 119/4 
WM2 17 

This story takes place before X-Men #9. The 'continuity guys' are cleaning up the scenery, probably from the beginning of the revolution seen in X-Men #7. Time must flow differently in the Mojoverse, because X-Men was on issue 16 when this came out... 

Mojo 
X 7 
*M/CP 119/4 
X 10-FB 

Major Domo 
X 7 
*M/CP 119/4 
X 10-FB 

Minor Domo 
M/CP 89/4 
*M/CP 119/4 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Sep 2005 05:58 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Is this Agent different from the one from Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem? 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Sep 2005 09:49 pm    
By Ant-Man

It's the same Agent
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Sep 2005 11:41 pm    
By Col_Fury

In that case... 

*Agent 
*XCAL:MM 
*M/CP 119/4 

Thanks for catching that, guys!
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Sep 2005 03:24 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Well, actually, the Agent was another alias for Ricochet Rita/Spiral that she only used during XCAL:MM. No clue how another appearance as the Agent would fit into her chronology - probably between her last appearance as Rita and her first appearance as Spiral. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Sep 2005 08:02 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Actually... 

Ricochet Rita was captured, transformed into the Agent, and then returned to normal all within the pages of XCAL:MM. The next time she was captured by Mojo, she was transformed into Spiral. I doubt he'd recapture her, make her The Agent again, then remake her into Spiral after that. 

In M/CP #119/4, Mojo mentions "rebuilding the Agent from scratch" and "giving him his own persona". Plus he's colored completely differently. 

Mojo already has a precedent for making new versions of characters. When he lost the original X-Babies (the real X-Men, transformed into children, in UX @10), he simply made new ones from whole cloth. 

It's very possible that he did the same thing after losing Rita as his Agent. Especially given the "I gave you your own persona" line. 

I'd peg this as Agent II. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 01 Aug 2005 10:00 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #5
By metaldragon

FF:WGCM 5 (of 12) 

Published: June, 2001 

Written by: Erik Larsen, Eric Stephenson, & Kurt Busiek in the style of Stan Lee. 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 
Thing 
Mr. Fantastic 
Human Torch 
Doctor Doom 
Hulk robot 
Invisible Girl 
Franklin Richards 
Agatha Harkness 
Alicia Masters 
Hulk/Bruce Banner 
Crystal 
Medusa 
Black Bolt 
Gorgon 
Triton 
Karnak 
a male, pterodaktyl-looking Inhuman 
Boris (one of Dooms lackeys, off panel) 


Brief Synopsis: 

Mr. Fantastic activates the device he was working on last issue and much to the surprise of Thing and Human Torch it splits open and sends out dozens of tiny spheres to destroy Doctor Dooms bugging devices/thought-inhibitor emitters. 

Doom is startled when his view screens of the Baxter Building go blank, but says it matters not! He moves on to the next stage of his plan and uses the Cosmic Cube to activate another time-snatched artifact: the Hulk robot. 

At Whisper Hill, Invisible Woman is interrupted while playing with Franklin by Agatha Harkness who informs her that she has a call. Mr. Fantastic updates Sue on what has happened since shes been away, while she tells him of Crystals disappearance. Torch overhears this and goes racing off to find Thing. 

Thing is visiting with Alicia Masters when Torch barges in. Thing begins to tell him off when suddenly the Hulk robot smashes through the wall of Alicias apartment. Torch flies her to the roof while Thing takes the battle outside. Mr. Fantastic and Torch join the fight just as Thing punches the Hulk robot through the wall of a warehouse. Suddenly the real Hulk attacks, while Mr. Fantastic examines a hole out the other side of the warehouse and notices footprints leading away. 

In the Himalayas at the Inhumans Great Refuge, a slightly pterodaktyl-looking, male Inhuman flies overhead in the establishing panel. Crystal is horrified to hear from her family that the sacred Helix of Randac has been stolen from the Citadel of Science. It may mean the end -- for the entire Inhuman race! she exclaims and asks them -- who could have done such a thing? And why? Why? 

Mr. Fantastic sends the Torch after the Hulk robot and helps Thing fight the real Hulk. When the Hulk knocks Thing into Mr. Fantastic, Thing shouts that the gloves are off! 

Torch locates the Hulk robot and fells it with a nova blast. Mr. Fantastic arrives in time to witness its fall and determines that it is a robot, then realises its a diversion. They hurry back to the warehouse. 

Unnoticed by Thing or Hulk, a tiny-but-ominous device zaps the Hulk just before the Thing desperately gives his all in one final haymaker punch which succeeds in knocking out the Hulk. Hulk turns into Banner and the Thing realises that was too easy. Mr Fantastic and the Torch arrive and are relieved to find Thing allright but when they go with Banner to look at the Hulk robot, they discover it has disappeared. 

Doom gloats that his plan has worked perfectly; the Thing weakened the Hulk enough that Dooms psyche-scalpel could extract the info he needs from the Hulks mind. Doom calls for Boris to prepare his experimental luna-craft because his next destination is the Moon! 


References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. 

The Hulk is discovered hiding in a warehouse somewhere not too far from the Baxter building. Im not sure where this would fit in his continuity but possibly somewhere around the July/Aug 1970 (129-130?) issues of his title? Definately after Incredible Hulk #115 (footnote in FF:WGCM 5) and probably after Incredible Hulk #123 (flashback image in FF:WGCM looks like cover). (I noticed that the FF appear in Incredible Hulk #122-123 and the Avengers appear in Incredible Hulk #128, Ill leave it to the experts to figure out how the FF:WGCM issue appearances fit into that continuity.)  

The Hulk robot was plucked from time by Doom but there is no footnote reference about when or where he took it from. Im guessing a Hulk robot appeared sometime prior to July 1970 in some Marvel title (probably Hulks?). I assume Doom repaired it with the Cosmic Cube after the Torch fused its circuits, before returning it back to when and where he got it.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 04 Aug 2005 02:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 07:35 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
The Hulk is discovered hiding in a warehouse somewhere not too far from the Baxter building. Im not sure where this would fit in his continuity but possibly somewhere around the July/Aug 1970 (129-130?) issues of his title? Definately after Incredible Hulk #115 (footnote in FF:WGCM 5) and probably after Incredible Hulk #123 (flashback image in FF:WGCM looks like cover). (I noticed that the FF appear in Incredible Hulk #122-123 and the Avengers appear in Incredible Hulk #128, Ill leave it to the experts to figure out how the FF:WGCM issue appearances fit into that continuity.)   
<<<

I've got this placed between CM 21 and H2 130. The FF appear in H2 123 prior to FF 94.

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Posted: 02 Aug 2005 06:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, that looks good to me. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Aug 2005 11:57 am    
By metaldragon

The "male, pterodaktyl-looking Inhuman" looks kinda like the flying Inhuman shown briefly in FF 82. If they are the same one, that would make it his previous appearance. Anyone know if he appears next anywhere?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 04:04 am    
By Jopili

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
The Hulk robot was plucked from time by Doom but there is no footnote reference about when or where he took it from. Im guessing a Hulk robot appeared sometime prior to July 1970 in some Marvel title (probably Hulks?). I assume Doom repaired it with the Cosmic Cube after the Torch fused its circuits, before returning it back to when and where he got it. 
<<<

I think this can be helpful: 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/hulkrobot.htm

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 07:31 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I have this bizarre memory of the Hulk robot showing up in an issue of G.I. Joe. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 10 Sep 2005 11:56 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

That seems unlikely... There is one early issue where the Joes fight a giant robot, but it doesn't have anything to do with the Hulk that I know of.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Thread 41

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:16 am    Post subject: Fantastic Four: The Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #11
By metaldragon

FF:WGCM 11 (of 12) 

Published: Dec, 2001 

Written by: Erik Larsen & Eric Stephenson in the style of Stan Lee. 
Drawn by: a whole bunch of artists in the style of Jack Kirby. 

Appearances: 

Mr. Fantastic 
Invisible Girl 
Thing 
Human Torch 
Crystal 
Doctor Doom 
Thor 
Odin 
Balder 
Lady Sif 
Hogun 
Volstagg 
Fandrall 
just about the entire Asgardian race 
Silver Surfer 
The Watcher 
Galactus 
Captain America 
Goliath II 
Scarlet Witch 
Quicksilver 
Vision 
Black Panther 
Iron Man 
Wasp 
Professor X 
Angel 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Iceman 
Marvel Girl 
Havok 
an unnamed, white haired and moustached officer (possibly General Ross?) 
the US Armed Forces 
Nick Fury 
Dum Dum Dugan 
all the personel of the SHIELD helicarrier 
Medusa 
Black Bolt 
Gorgon 
Triton 
Karnak 
Sub-Mariner 
one of Namors Atlantean advisors (does anyone recognise him?) 
the Atlantean army 
the entire population of Earth 


Brief Synopsis: 

The FF and Asgardians look on in horror as Doctor Doom consumes a distant star with his new powers. Mr. Incredible reveals what each of the items Doom stole added to his power. The Watchers Ultimate Machine held all the knowledge of the universe which told Doom how to drain Galactus of his powers. The Sacred Helix of Randac altered Doom enough so he could access the knowledge in the Ultimate Machine. The Cosmic Cube made Dooms wishes become reality and the Cosmic Control Rod gave him enhanced control over them all. 

Now that Doom has Galactus powers, Reed wonders what became of the Silver Surfer. He has been missing for days. Odins mystic orb reveals that the Surfer is held prisoner in Dooms castle upstate. Reed then checks on the Watcher who is seen gazing at what the Thing describes as some sci-fi pitchur. Worried at Galactus fate, the orb reveals him clinging to an asteroid and struggling for breath out in space. Odin offers the use of a cosmos-craft and Torch and Balder decide to take on the Galactus rescue mission. With Johnny gone, Crystal wishes to be with her family and Thor takes her home. Odin summons all the Asgardians to do battle. 

On Earth, Reed informs the Avengers of Dooms impending return and Captain America decides to call on Iron Man, the reserves, and to alert everyone. 

The X-Men are watching tv and hear the announcement of full-scale war. This is not a drill!! 

The armed forces are on alert with a white haired and moustached officer in command of troops, tanks, and jets flying overhead. (Is this General Ross or another head of the armed forces we might have seen before? Anyone recognise him?) 

Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, and Thing sneak into Dooms castle, while onboard the SHIELD helicarrier Dugan and Fury prepare for battle. In the Great Refuge Medusa consoles Crystal while Black Bolt and the rest of the royal family look grim. In Atlantis, Namor informs his advisor (anyone recognise him?) of Dooms return. Back in Asgard; Odin, with Thor and the Warriors Three, prepare the Asgardians for Dooms arrival. 

In the skies above Earth, Doctor Doom makes his grand appearance; massive and crackling with energy. The US armed forces open fire only to be blasted from the skies and on the ground by Dooms cosmic energies. The SHIELD helicarier fires and hits Doom dead center with no affect at all. Doom knocks it from the sky with a single punch. The Avengers have arrived and Goliath cushions its fall with his body. They attack but with a mere gesture, Doom disposes of them all. The X-Men arrive in time to see the Avengers fall and attack with all their might but even Professor Xs powers fail against the might of Doom and they too are blasted by his power. 

In the far reaches of space, Human Torch and Balder worry that they might not arrive to save Galactus in time. His signal is growing more faint by the minute. 

Back on Earth, Odin, Thor, Lady Sif, and the Warriors Three lead the Asgardian Gods' attack against Doom but with a back-handed sweep and a blast of cosmic power they are all defeated, except for one. Odin grows to Dooms enormous size and they smash and pound each other in hand to hand combat. 

Over in Doctor Dooms castle, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, and Thing free the Silver Surfer only to walk into a group of Doombots. 

Far out in space, Torch and Balder finally locate Galactus and take him onboard. 

The battle between Doom and Odin ends with a cosmic powered concussion blast. Doom contemptiously orders the remaining Asgardians to flee as the Watcher appears to witness the conquest of Earth. Just then Namor arrives at the head of his Atlantean army with more giant sea monsters. Doom smashes them all and flicks the Sub-Mariner away like an annoying insect. He then orders everyone on Earth to bow to him or die! 

Back in Dooms castle, Thing is frustrated that he could not join the fight while Sue tends the Silver Surfer. With pictures of just about every monster Kirby ever created in his monster comics prior to FF #1 on the monitors, Reed exclaims that his access to Dooms technology has given him an idea of how to fight back and free the Earth from Doom's tyrany. 


References: 

This entire 12-part mini-series takes place between FF 100 (July 1970) and FF 101 (August 1970) in honor of Stan and Jacks last issues together on the series and the 40th anniversary of Fantastic Four #1. 

Thor, Odin, Balder, and the Asgardians last appeared in FF:WGCM 10, all appear next (most of them behind the scenes) in FF:WGCM 12. 

The Silver Surfer appeared last in FF:WGCM 7 and appears next in FF:WGCM 12. 

The Watcher appeared last in FF:WGCM 8 and appears next in FF:WGCM 12. 

Galactus appeared last in FF:WGCM 10 and appears next in FF:WGCM 12. 

Captain America, Goliath II, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Panther, & Iron Man all appeared last in FF:WGCM 8 and all appear next (most behind the scenes) in FF:WGCM 12. Im not sure when Vision and Wasps appearances here fit in their chronologies. (Its possible Hank Pym is somewhere off-panel here too?) 

The X-Men (except for Lorna but she may just be off-panel here) appear between X 94/2 and (next behind the scenes in FF:WGCM 12, then) X:HY 1. If FF:WGCM 3 & 4 happened on the afternoon of UX 66 after Professor X recovers and FF:WGCM 11 & 12 happen in the morning of X:HY 1 before Iceman leaves the X-Men, that would give just barely enough time for days to have passed when Silver Surfer went missing between FF:WGCM 7 and FF:WGCM 11 (if the events of FF:WGCM 3-7 all take place during the same day! There really aren't many references to go on.) Or maybe Mr. Fantastic is exagerating...? 

If the US armed forces officer is General Ross, Im not sure where this would fit in his chronology. If it is some other officer we might have seen somewhere else, speak up. lol! 

Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, and all the rest of the personnel of the SHIELD Helicarrier appeared last in FF:WGCM 7 and next (most of them behind the scenes) in FF:WGCM 12. 

The Inhumans appeared last in FF:WGCM 8 and next in FF:WGCM 12. 

Sub-Mariner appeared last in FF:WGCM 9 and next behind the scenes in FF:WGCM 12 (Ill let you guys fight over where he appears next). Does anyone recognise his elderly advisor...?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:32 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
If the US armed forces officer is General Ross, Im not sure where this would fit in his chronology. If it is some other officer we might have seen somewhere else, speak up.  
<<<

It looks like Ross to me. I've got him between H2 128 and H2 130. 


metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Sub-Mariner appeared last in FF:WGCM 9 and next behind the scenes in FF:WGCM 12 (Ill let you guys fight over where he appears next). Does anyone recognise his elderly advisor...? 
<<<

It's Lord Vashti, a regular of the Sub-Mariner series at the time. He appears here between SUB-M 25 and SUB-M 27.

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:53 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I agree with Sean's placement of Ross and Vashti. The Wasp is here between A 83 and A 90-FB. There's no reason to give Pym a BTS here. 

I have this whole series occurring during the weeks that must separate X:HY 9 and 10 rather than before X:HY 1.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:58 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
I have this whole series occurring during the weeks that must separate X:HY 9 and 10 rather than before X:HY 1. 
<<<

Uh... aren't Iceman, Havok, and Lorna still down in the Savage Land and Angel a prisoner of Blob, Unus, and Mastermind at this point? It isn't until X:HY 14 when everyone is at the mansion together (except for Professor X who is still watching over Ashley). Sorry, but FF:WGCM could not take place between X:HY 9 & 10.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ugh. The problem with X:HY is that issue #1 picks up just after UX 66, which occurs in early October, and issue #20 ties in to FF 102, which occurs in December...yet it doesn't appear from internal temporal references that the series takes anywhere near that amount of time. But somewhere there needs to be a gap and in that gap FFWGCM will need to go to make various published before and after appearances work. 

Is there a gap somewhere in X:HY between issues #1 and #20 in which it would make sense for the X-Men to appear in FFWGCM?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:30 pm    
By metaldragon

Like I've said, the X-Men's appearances in FF:WGCM have to take place in the 4 day period between UXM 66 and X:HY 1. (Byrne says the end of UXM 66 takes place "3 days" ago in X:HY 1) 

The only other spot where the X-Men are all together again (except for Professor X) is half-way through X:HY 14. Problems with that spot: Marvel Girl is already back to wearing her old bluish-black and yellow uniform with the pointy mask (she changed back to it in X:HY 8) and wears it from this point on, in X:HY and all her guest appearances in other books at the time, all the way up to just before GSX 1. (In FF:WGCM she's wearing the green mini-skirt costume.) Second point, Candy Southern has been desperate to contact Angel because his uncle, supervillain the "Dazzler" (the guy who murdered his own brother, Warren's father) is about to marry Warren's mother. So, to put it mildly, they don't stick around for long! And of course Professor X is still away monitoring Ashley's condition and dosen't return to the mansion until a couple of issues later when everyone is away and unable to get back to the mansion. 

Also, right here on this site, they have the FF's appearance in X:HY 7-9 taking place between FF 101 & 102 (which is after FF:WGCM!) so the only spot FF:WGCM can fit is where I've put it. So, to answer your question: 

Quote: 
>>>
Is there a gap somewhere in X:HY between issues #1 and #20 in which it would make sense for the X-Men to appear in FFWGCM? 
<<<

Um... No. 

If you're worried about how long things take in X:HY, don't be. They spend a lot of time travelling between the US, South America, Savage Land, Africa, outer space... Just because they don't show them sitting on planes for pages, crawling through tunnels for pages, floating along strapped to baloons for pages, sailing on a boat for pages... you get the idea. There events between X:HY1 and 20 don't need to have a break of a couple of weeks! (Though I'm sure the X-Men could have used one...!)
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the documentation, metaldragon. One shortcoming of my notes on early years of the calendar is the lack of plot synopses that lay these things out. I could get off my duff and check the comics themselves, but nooo.  

Quick question: can there be a gap of, say, a month or so between UX 65 and 66? During this time, Xavier would be comatose.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:21 am
By jephyork
Director

Personally, I'd prefer to just ignore the "three days" reference betwen UX #66 and X:HY #1. Not every temporal reference has to work with 100% accuracy -- I'd rather ignore the ones that don't work, rather than invent creative new gaps elsewhere in order to *make* them work. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:52 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm with Jeph - the natural storytelling break is before X:HY 1, and it seems far more comfortable to disregard the words "three days" than to shoehorn artificial breaks into the story of HIDDEN YEARS itself.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:27 pm    
By Col_Fury

The 3 days reference was in a narrators caption, no characters actually say "it's been 3 days since we fought the Hulk" or whatever. It's been said elsewhere that we ignore narrator captions, ie: Wolverine riding a Sentinel, & the caption makes a distinction between Avengers & New Avengers, even though that particular story takes place before the New Avengers formed. I guess we can either outright ignore that caption, or pretend it meant to say '3 days since their last mission,' or '3 weeks' or '3 months,' & chalk it up to a typo.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:48 pm  
By Paul O'Brien
Director

We certainly don't have a general rule of ignoring narrator's captions. The narrator is, for most purposes, definitively right because (unless he's a first person narrator) he ought to be utterly reliable.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:43 pm    
By Col_Fury

Oops. You're right. I meant to say "ignore narrator captions, in certain cases," like that Wolverine example. But Wolverine was narrating in that case, making it first person. Dang. So do we take the 3 days reference as is? I'm thinking FF:WGCM fits better before before the Hidden Years starts, so I don't know if that '3 days' can work.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'm with Jeph - the natural storytelling break is before X:HY 1, and it seems far more comfortable to disregard the words "three days" than to shoehorn artificial breaks into the story of HIDDEN YEARS itself. 
<<<


I'm not advocating putting gaps in X:HY anymore. My suggestion is to put a gap of a month or so between UX 65 and 66. Doable? 

By moving UX 66 forward on the calendar, we might still use the three-day reference and still get the relative placement of X:HY and FF:WGCM right.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:18 am    
By jephyork
Director

Why would the X-Men sit around for a month while Prof. X is in a coma, *then* scramble to cure him? 

Like I said: 

Quote: 
>>>
I'd rather ignore the [temporal references] that don't work [like the 3 days ref], rather than invent creative new gaps elsewhere in order to *make* them work. 
<<<

-Jeph!

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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
Why would the X-Men sit around for a month while Prof. X is in a coma, *then* scramble to cure him?  


Innocent question. I don't have UX 65 or 66. For all I know they could have been noodling a cure for Xavier for a while. You're saying, then, that dialog in UX 66 forbids any length of time from separating UX 65 and 66. And the attempt to cure him in UX 66 was a "scramble," as in, can't afford to waste a moment getting him well? That's cool...just asking...and what would that dialog be, exactly? 

Quote: 
>>>
I'd rather ignore the [temporal references] that don't work [like the 3 days ref], rather than invent creative new gaps elsewhere in order to *make* them work. 
<<<

Wasn't aware the placement of a gap between UX 65 and 66 was "creative." Again, just asking out of ignorance. But please back up the argument that such a gap is unlikely.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:43 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Quote: 
Why would the X-Men sit around for a month while Prof. X is in a coma, *then* scramble to cure him?  


Innocent question. I don't have UX 65 or 66. For all I know they could have been noodling a cure for Xavier for a while. You're saying, then, that dialog in UX 66 forbids any length of time from separating UX 65 and 66. And the attempt to cure him in UX 66 was a "scramble," as in, can't afford to waste a moment getting him well? That's cool...just asking...and what would that dialog be, exactly? 


For what it's worth: 

1. UX 66 opens with all the X-Men, including Havok and Polaris, in full uniform, gathered around Professor X's bed. They are intensely grievous, as you would expect, from an Xbook. The implication is that they've just arrived from defeating the Z'Nox. 

2. Polaris mentions that she's known Professor X "only a few days." She would have met him sometime prior to UX 65, leaving some time for him to explain just who he was, and what he was doing in their basement. 

3. After using the Professor's mind-probe in an effort to gain information on how to help Xavier, Jean makes the comment that "he's still sinking." The use of the word "still" can probably used to support either side of the debate. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:52 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Um, maybe I'm missing something, but if Professor X is up and about in issue #3, then he obviously isn't in a coma, so the story MUST follow UX 66.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Um, maybe I'm missing something, but if Professor X is up and about in issue #3, then he obviously isn't in a coma, so the story MUST follow UX 66. 
<<<

You are missing something; I should have been more explicit about what I'm thinking. There's no question that X:HY follows UX 66. I just thought we could move UX 66 forward on the calendar -- i.e. distance it chronologically from UX 65 -- so that UX 66 is just a few days before XH:Y 1. This would: allow UX 65 to occur where it should relative to other comics (in early October); allow X:HY to occur where it should, after FF:WGCM, in November; and allow the temporal reference in X:HY 1 to a few days since UX 66 to be true.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hopefully now that I've explained a little of what I'm angling for here, my responses here might make some sense. 

Quote: 
>>>
1. UX 66 opens with all the X-Men, including Havok and Polaris, in full uniform, gathered around Professor X's bed. They are intensely grievous, as you would expect, from an Xbook. The implication is that they've just arrived from defeating the Z'Nox.  
<<<

Okay, there may be an implication, but I'd have to compare this to an explicit reference to the "three days" since UX 66 in X:HY 1. 


Quote: 
>>>
Polaris mentions that she's known Professor X "only a few days." She would have met him sometime prior to UX 65, leaving some time for him to explain just who he was, and what he was doing in their basement. 
<<<


Might this mean that Polaris only got to know Xavier for a few days prior to his coma rather than that it's been a few days since before UX 65? 


Quote: 
>>>
After using the Professor's mind-probe in an effort to gain information on how to help Xavier, Jean makes the comment that "he's still sinking." The use of the word "still" can probably used to support either side of the debate.  
<<<

Agreed. 


So what's our comfort level? Take a temporal reference in X:HY 1 at face value and insert a gap between UX 65 and 66 (in order to preserve chronological sequences -- UX 65 occurring before FF 94, A 64, and CA 114, as noted in the Indexes)? Or put UX 66 right after UX 65 and insert a gap of much longer than three days between UX 66 and X:HY 1 (still preserving established chronological sequences)?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
1. UX 66 opens with all the X-Men, including Havok and Polaris, in full uniform, gathered around Professor X's bed. They are intensely grievous, as you would expect, from an Xbook. The implication is that they've just arrived from defeating the Z'Nox. 
<<<

Okay, there may be an implication, but I'd have to compare this to an explicit reference to the "three days" since UX 66 in X:HY 1. 
<<<

From here, the natural evolution of the discussion is to priorities. I prefer a reading order that doesn't >>>jar<<< the reader, over a calendar placement that only matters to those of us with the calendar. But I may be alone in that. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Polaris mentions that she's known Professor X "only a few days." She would have met him sometime prior to UX 65, leaving some time for him to explain just who he was, and what he was doing in their basement. 
<<<

Might this mean that Polaris only got to know Xavier for a few days prior to his coma rather than that it's been a few days since before UX 65? 
 


I can't get behind that interpretation. Precisely, she says, "Even though I've known him only a few days, it seems like...a lifetime!" I suppose it can be interpretated any number of ways, but in my mind, only one interpretation accurately reflects what she said. My interpretation is that she's only known him for a few days, measured from the day she makes the comment. 

Now, clarify something for me. 

What are we talking about doing with this proposed gap? Is there a proposal on the board to insert appearances by the X-Men in other books during this proposed gap between UX 65 and UX 66? 

If the answer is yes, I'm a little bit hinky with that. 

If the answer is no, the gap is purely for the purpose of squaring the calendar, and no change in reading order...well, then, gaps ahoy, as far as I'm concerned. Doesn't affect the Project. 


watching: little league softball world series

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
What are we talking about doing with this proposed gap? Is there a proposal on the board to insert appearances by the X-Men in other books during this proposed gap between UX 65 and UX 66?  


No appearances by X-Men are proposed in the gap between UX 65 and UX 66. It's pure, sweet calendar placement. As I've noted, I want to keep all established chronologies, yet make it possible to insert FF:WGCM and X:HY in the right spots, relative to early '70s comics (and what Olshevsky says about calendarplacement) and relative to each other. And if I can get in-comic temporal references to work (well, as much as possible), so much the better. That's it. 

Here's what I'd end up with for X-appearances: 

UX 65 -- early October 
UX 66 -- November 
FF:WGCM 3-4 -- November 
FF:WGCM 11 -- November 
X:HY 1-14 -- November (starting 3 days after UX 66; X:HY 11 occurring "four weeks" after late September's UX 60 isn't going to work...drat) 
X:HY 15-22 -- early December (tieing into FF 102-104) 


Gaps ahoy? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:30 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Gaps ahoy?  
<<<

I'm just saying I recuse myself from the discussion. It is, after all, your calendar. 


watching: angel

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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, then, so I'm on board with putting FF:WGCM in the tight window between UX 66 and X:HY 1.  

And before and after appearances I've mentioned for various non-X characters in FF:WGCM still stand.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

What happens the day Marvel publishes their X-Men Retro Halloween Special that features the X-Men from this period? 

Paul's not proposing adding any X-Men appearances between UX #65-66 *now* -- but what if eventually he wants to? 

What if there's a story that, chronologically, occurs around UX #66 -- and it happens to take place on "Halloween"? And Prof. X isn't present, for whatever reason? 

Paul, will you remember this discussion then? Or will you look at your calendar and say "ah ha, a three-week gap! It fits perfectly!" -- and pay no heed to the content of the comics on either side of the gap? 

I realize it's a big hypothetical ... but how often do you re-evaluate previous calendar placements when adding in new issues? And how often do you just toss them into holes you find on your calendar -- not even bothering to check if the holes are natural (mandated by the books) or artificial (created by you)? 

I'm with Russ -- gaps ahoy, as long as it doesn't create a >>>jarring<<< reading order. And in this case, your proposed gap doesn't. 

Yet. 

Do you keep an eye out to make sure that never changes? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Do you keep an eye out to make sure that never changes? 
<<<

I'd like to think that will always happen, but will it? Not necessarily. That's why someday (in a future life at this point) I will go back through the comics from those early years, and flesh out continuity notes and plot synopses and make sure everything fits together in a chronological progression. Notes such as those I use in the current calendar ("Xavier is well" or "Xavier cannot appear well between UX 65 and 66") are designed to catch the kinds of situations that arise with flashbacks and continuity implants. When that time comes, I'll split issues into segments by day and assign specific dates to events. To do that, of course, I'll have to close the gap to confirm that my hunch about what year it is now, relative to FF 1. 

Ah...plans...
_________________
Paul B. 

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Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:11 am    
By jephyork
Director

We've all got dreams.  

I just had an idea, Paul. At the end of FF:WGCM, Mr. Fantastic erases the events of the series from the world's memories. Could it be that, in X:HY #1, the X-Men only *think* it's been three days since UX #66? Because they can't remember the events of the week or two that actually separate the issues? 

That would allow you to rationalize the "three days" comment, AND keep Lorna's "only known Prof. X a few days" comment. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I think that's a stretch, and it doesn't gain us much. UX 65 occurs in early October and FF:WGCM must occur sometime in November (given its placement relative to FF issues). If we put UX 66 right after UX 65, and if X:HY 1 indeed occurs after FFWGCM, that would mean that Reed would have had to wipe out several weeks of memory. 

The X-Men's appearances in FF:WGCM 3-4 and 11 all occur on the same day. So Reed made the X-Men lose just a day's worth of memories. That's hardly enough to explain thinking of several weeks as just three days. 

But I just encountered a problem with my own placement of UX 66 in November, several weeks after UX 65 and just before FFWGCM... 

According to the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, UX 66 occurs before H2 125. According to the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, H2 128 occurs before A 77-FB-FB. Obviously, A 83 occurs after a flashback in A 77, and A 83 is a Halloween story. So UX 66 must occur before no later than mid-October, much longer than three days before X:HY 1, which must occur after FFWGCM, which in turn follows the November story in FF 100. So we might as well leave UX 66 right after UX 65 and chalk up the "three days" reference as a mistake. Drat. Hey, I can't help writers of continuity implants not doing their chronological and temporal homework. 
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Paul B.

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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:00 pm    
By metaldragon

I have discovered a gap in Amazing Spider-Man where FF:WGCM can fit as well as make Iceman's appearance in ASM 92 make sense in his chronology. Put FF:WGCM between ASM 90 and 91. 

At the end of ASM 90, Captain Stacy dies in Spider-Man's arms. ASM 91 opens with his funeral. Traditionally, a person is burried around 3 days after they die. ASM 92 continues right off from the cliffhanger ending of ASM 91 and takes place during the same day. So this totally works with my chronology for Iceman. ASM 90 would take place around the same time as UXM 66 and ASM 91-92 would take place the same day as X:HY 1. Therefore a perfect gap for Spider-Man and Iceman's apperances in FF:WGCM. 

Now, if you are looking for a time gap in UXM to move things foreward a bit... UXM 63 ends with the team down in the Savage Land. UXM 64 starts with them at Scott & Jean's apartment in New York. UXM 65 starts with them arriving at Xavier's with Alex and Lorna saying "We expected you back days ago" (or some such, I've been away on holiday, will be able to check my copy on Sun when I get home) which implies they knew the team had returned to New York in UXM 64 but took their time getting back to the mansion. (I'm sure Iceman had called to see how Lorna was doing as soon as they got to the apartment!) The Beast replies that they ran into Sunfire which caused the delay. I think the X-Men Index entry for UXM 64 suggests that they've been hanging out at the apartment for a while. 

So, for all we know, there could be a huge gap between 63 and 64. It's possible they hang around to help Kazar take care of stuff in the Savage Land for a while after 63. Plus they had to travel back to the US which would have taken a while... they might even have stopped at Warren's place in Madripoor for a bit and ended up in Australia where Marvel Girl... 
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:39 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I have discovered a gap in Amazing Spider-Man where FF:WGCM can fit as well as make Iceman's appearance in ASM 92 make sense in his chronology. Put FF:WGCM between ASM 90 and 91.  
<<<

But doesn't part of Spider-Man: Death & Destiny #1 occupy those few days between ASM 90 and 91?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:59 am    
By metaldragon

Spider-Man's appearances in FF:WGCM are so brief that it could easily be worked around that. A short fight with a Sentinel in issue 3 and a brief moment of falling asleep and having his memory altered by Mr. Fantastic in issue 12... I really don't see a problem. FF:WGCM's placement there makes Iceman's appearance in ASM 92 (between X:HY 1 and 2) make sense. To have Iceman appear in ASM 92 dating some new girl before Lorna actually tells him she is only interested in seeing Havok in X:HY 1 just dosen't make sense. He had a VERY melodramatic protective thing happening with her and was pretty much throwing his heart at her up to that point.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
FF:WGCM's placement there makes Iceman's appearance in ASM 92 (between X:HY 1 and 2) make sense. To have Iceman appear in ASM 92 dating some new girl before Lorna actually tells him she is only interested in seeing Havok in X:HY 1 just dosen't make sense.  
<<<

I can't buy ASM 92 happening between X:HY 1 and 2. In X:HY 1, Bobby storms out on the team after being rejected by Lorna. As noted in X:HY 2, that next morning at 2 AM, still upset, he shows up at Zelda's place. There are three reasons I can't see Iceman appearing in ASM 92 between storming out and showing up at Zelda's: 

1) It's hard to interrupt Bobby's fit of pique for his appearance in ASM 92. It just doesn't flow as far as the character's sequence of events go. 

2) It took Bobby weeks to set up his date in ASM 92. Wouldn't it make sense for this to happen during the weeks that must now separate UX 66 and X:HY 1, a period in which Bobby was stewing with jealousy? 

3) Bobby's appearances in ASM 92 span a few days. There's no room for these appearances between X:HY 1 and 2. 

(Granted, I'm going by the synopsis for ASM 92 in the Official Marvel Index, as I don't own the original comic.) 

A fourth reason has to do with the tremendous intertwining of various comic titles from the early 70s with both FF:WGCM and X:HY, the calendar placement of A 83 on Halloween, and ASM 92 before election day. It's difficult to get a lot of X:HY before ASM 92, which we'd have to do if you want to put Bobby's date sometime after the official kiss-off from Lorna. 

Unfortunately, X:HY involves retconning the flashback in H2 150, which neatly placed another scene involving Bobby's break with Lorna before ASM 92. That flashback didn't have the chronological baggage of an entire continuity implant series weighing it down. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:46 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
In X:HY 1, Bobby storms out on the team after being rejected by Lorna. 
<<<

Actually, in X:HY 1 Iceman originally stormed out on the team because he was upset that Professor X let them believe he was dead and then came back and took over like nothing happened. Bobby comes back a bit later to see if Lorna would leave with him but gets into a fight with Havok over her, which ends with Lorna saying she is not his girlfriend. He leaves again without her. 


Quote: 
>>>
As noted in X:HY 2, that next morning at 2 AM, still upset, he shows up at Zelda's place. There are three reasons I can't see Iceman appearing in ASM 92 between storming out and showing up at Zelda's: 

1) It's hard to interrupt Bobby's fit of pique for his appearance in ASM 92. It just doesn't flow as far as the character's sequence of events go. 
<<<

X:HY 2 opens with Zelda implying that Bobby appeared at her door at 2:00 in the morning after he'd been on a bender. She didn't know why he turned up suddenly after not seeing him for ages. So, if we include the events of ASM 92: First he's so angry with the Professor he leaves. Then he fights with Havok and gets dumped by Lorna. Then he has to brush off the girl he put a lot of effort into getting a date with (in his "fit of pique" with Lorna) only to end up having an embarassing fight with Spider-Man. At least he got to rescue Robbie and expose Bullit's corruption. After that he ends up at Zelda's door after a bender. (Victory drinks turned maudlin?) I'm not seeing the interruption of flow. 


Quote: 
>>>
2) It took Bobby weeks to set up his date in ASM 92. Wouldn't it make sense for this to happen during the weeks that must now separate UX 66 and X:HY 1, a period in which Bobby was stewing with jealousy? 
<<<

John Byrne put a note in a square box at the beginning of X:HY 1 saying the events of UXM 66 happened 3 days before X:HY 1 (it's just after the flashback sequence). As I understand it, character's dialogue can be passed off as topical or exageration, but "*" square box notes by the writers are close to being etched in stone when it comes to placement (someone please correct me if I'm wrong.) Therefore "weeks" of time cannot separate UX 66 and X:HY 1. 

Also, there is plenty of evidence all the way up to that fight in X:HY 1 that show that Bobby thought he was Lorna's official boyfriend and thought that Havok was trying to cut in on their relationship up to that point. Nowhere in his past or present has he ever been shown to be a player. He even tries to hang onto relationships after they're over. Besides Polaris, see Darkstar in the Champions. 


Quote: 
>>>
3) Bobby's appearances in ASM 92 span a few days. There's no room for these appearances between X:HY 1 and 2. 

(Granted, I'm going by the synopsis for ASM 92 in the Official Marvel Index, as I don't own the original comic.) 
<<<

That's strange... I don't see any mention of extra time passing between action bits in ASM 92. It's all very straight foreward. The entire story looks like it only spans about 2 hours and takes place on the same day as ASM 91. It opens with Iceman out on his first date with an unnamed dark-haired girl. He sees Spider-Man "kidnap" Gwen Stacy and hails a taxi for his date, regretfully sending her off. (As I said in a previous post here somewhere, he could be exagerating about the ammount of time he's been trying to get a date with this girl and the last time the X-Men saw any action. Hey, he just got dumped by Lorna. I'd be pretty melodramatic under similar circumstances too!) He then fights with Spider-Man, Spider-Man webs him up, follows a taxi, and enters a warehouse building through a skylight. Iceman catches up with Spider-Man, spots him listening to some goons roughing up Robbie Robertson and helps him rescue Robbie. Cut to them crashing Bullit's banquet (probably no more than an hour or so later at the most) and exposing his plot to kidnap Robbie. 


Quote: 
>>>
A fourth reason has to do with the tremendous intertwining of various comic titles from the early 70s with both FF:WGCM and X:HY, the calendar placement of A 83 on Halloween, and ASM 92 before election day. It's difficult to get a lot of X:HY before ASM 92, which we'd have to do if you want to put Bobby's date sometime after the official kiss-off from Lorna. 
<<<

OK, I'm not sure what you mean there... I think you might be repeating your second point? 


Quote: 
>>>
Unfortunately, X:HY involves retconning the flashback in H2 150 
<<<

I mentioned in another post somewhere here that the flashback in H2 150 was very different from the one seen in X:HY 1. They could not possibly be the same fight because the outcome of the one in H2 150 had Alex leaving the team because he nearly killed Iceman and moving to New Mexico without Lorna. I think the fight in X:HY 1 was Byrne just doing the foreshadowing thing again and NOT retconning H2 150. After all, he brought the Phoenix entity and Storm into continuity before their original first appearances, remember. Prequels galore. George Lucas, eat your heart out. lol! 


Quote: 
>>>
, which neatly placed another scene involving Bobby's break with Lorna before ASM 92. That flashback didn't have the chronological baggage of an entire continuity implant series weighing it down.  
<<<

I agree whole-heartedly with this part! Most frustrating.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I mentioned in another post somewhere here that the flashback in H2 150 was very different from the one seen in X:HY 1. They could not possibly be the same fight because the outcome of the one in H2 150 had Alex leaving the team because he nearly killed Iceman and moving to New Mexico without Lorna. I think the fight in X:HY 1 was Byrne just doing the foreshadowing thing again and NOT retconning H2 150.  
<<<

Then you'd propose that H2 150-FB would need to occur after X:HY 22? (Because Havok is with the team throughout the entire X:HY series.) If that's the case, do you suppose that ASM 92 might still be Iceman's next appearance after H2 150-FB (as noted in the Official Index to the Amazing Spider-Man #4)? Might the span of X:HY 1-22 provide the "weeks" that Bobby spends trying to set up a date with the unnamed girl in ASM 92 after getting shot down by Lorna in X:HY 1? ("Weeks" is noted in the Index; is there an actual time reference in ASM 92?) I haven't considered the calendar ramifications of this idea yet; just thinking "out loud" for now. 


Quote: 
>>>
That's strange... I don't see any mention of extra time passing between action bits in ASM 92. It's all very straight foreward. The entire story looks like it only spans about 2 hours and takes place on the same day as ASM 91. It opens with Iceman out on his first date with an unnamed dark-haired girl. He sees Spider-Man "kidnap" Gwen Stacy and hails a taxi for his date, regretfully sending her off. 
<<<

I'll quote from the Index to give you an idea of where in ASM 92 the Indexers believe that time passes... 
"Bullit, secretly annoyed that the X-Man cramped his style, tells Iceman he did a good job -- but not good enough, because Spider-Man is still at large. He orders Iceman to continue looking for Spider-Man, which makes it appear as if Iceman were his employee. This way Bullit should get some of the credit if Iceman does capture Spider-Man. In the days that follow, Bullit's campaign for District Attorney gains momentum as he promises to crush Spider-Man. Then J. Jonah Jameson in a telephone call tells Bullit he is withdrawing his support." 
The description goes on, and Iceman plays an important part later in the climax of the story. Apparently Iceman was busy looking for Spidey during the period of "days" noted in the synopsis above. 

Do you see where their proposed break comes in ASM 92? Is there really no mention of time passage in the actual comic? Is time passage implied? 


As a side note, I have a sneaking suspicion that the insertion of the X:HY series into the continuity of comics published in the early '70s (and its relationship to that other implant series, FF:WGCM) may force a re-evaluation of before and after appearances listed in the old Indexes, with Bullitt's election campaign of ASM 92 and the Halloween of A 83 providing a couple of calendar touch points to consider in any chronological shuffling that might occur.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:58 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
Then you'd propose that H2 150-FB would need to occur after X:HY 22? (Because Havok is with the team throughout the entire X:HY series.)  
<<<

Yes, that is correct. 


Quote: 
>>>
If that's the case, do you suppose that ASM 92 might still be Iceman's next appearance after H2 150-FB (as noted in the Official Index to the Amazing Spider-Man #4)?  
<<<

That was my original thought. ASM 92 came out in Jan 1971, half a year after FF 100-101 (Jul-Aug 1970) was released. I always thought it a bit odd that they were supposed to take place around the same time. But that's just me. 


Quote: 
>>>
Might the span of X:HY 1-22 provide the "weeks" that Bobby spends trying to set up a date with the unnamed girl in ASM 92 after getting shot down by Lorna in X:HY 1? ("Weeks" is noted in the Index; is there an actual time reference in ASM 92?) I haven't considered the calendar ramifications of this idea yet; just thinking "out loud" for now. 
<<<

Well, he's pretty busy during X:HY and it's fairly action packed. I don't know if "weeks" happened during X:HY but in ASM 92 Iceman says to himself that he hated sending his date off "--specially after it took me weeks to finally get a date with her!" and "I've been out of action with the X-Men long enough anyway!" 

I always thought he'd been "out of action" recovering from the serious injuries Havok gave him in the flashback fight in H2 150. I still assumed that ASM 92 happened after X:HY 22 until someone mentioned that the Marvel Index said elections usually happen in Nov (Am I quoting this correctly?) which means they placed ASM 92 sometime around FF 100-101-ish (which means sometime between UXM 66 & X:HY 2 for Iceman). 


Quote: 
>>>
In the days that follow, Bullit's campaign for District Attorney gains momentum as he promises to crush Spider-Man. Then J. Jonah Jameson in a telephone call tells Bullit he is withdrawing his support." 
The description goes on, and Iceman plays an important part later in the climax of the story. Apparently Iceman was busy looking for Spidey during the period of "days" noted in the synopsis above. 
<<<

Hmm. Interesting interpretation of what is shown "onscreen". It's entirely possible that "days" pass but all we are shown is that right after Bullit talks to Iceman there's a pannel with a caption that says in a box: "Then, as the campain nears its feverish climax--" 

Bullit says: "I'll bring law and order to this town! Law and order! With Spider-Man dead or captured, New York will be safe again!" 

Looking closer I can see what look like 2 different newspapers in the background. One is a stack of the same issue of The Bugle. There is only a tiny bit of the other paper shown in the corner of the pannel and it has a different caption. Possibly a different issue of The Bugle or maybe it's a rival paper that came out the same day...? Not enough evidence to tell either way. 

A couple of pannels later Jameson mentions the events of ASM 91 as "the other day". This is pretty vague. He could have been talking about yesterday, a couple of days ago, or even that morning if we take it as a glib, offhand comment. 

There are no other time references, nothing more specific. When Iceman catches up with Spider-Man the second time, Spider-Man just says "Iceman again!" They make no mention of how long it has been since their previous encounter (which implied to me that it was only hours earlier at the most). I don't see where the Index got the idea that "days" (more than 1) had passed during that pannel. 


Quote: 
>>>
As a side note, I have a sneaking suspicion that the insertion of the X:HY series into the continuity of comics published in the early '70s (and its relationship to that other implant series, FF:WGCM) may force a re-evaluation of before and after appearances listed in the old Indexes, with Bullitt's election campaign of ASM 92 and the Halloween of A 83 providing a couple of calendar touch points to consider in any chronological shuffling that might occur. 
<<<

I agree. The one title affected seems to be ASM. The rest seem to work out OK.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 42

Posted: 10 Sep 2005 08:36 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Arana: Heart of the Spider #1-6
By Kevin W.
Director

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #1-6 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz 

This is the start of the ongoing series that is the sequel to Amazing Fantasy #1-6, (from last year). The story chronicles the adventures of Arana, a teenage girl with Spider/Bug superpowers. Her story was originally supposed to tie in with Stracynskis run on Amazing Spiderman, (the whole Ezekiel/Spider Totem thing) but the plot seems content to ignore the original material, and just head off on its own course. It might be good to reread my review of the original Amazing Fantasy #1-6 from last year, as a refresher. 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #1 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz 

Appearances: Arana, (aka Anya Corazon), Miguel Legar, Gil Corazon, Dan Stevens, Nina, Ted, (we still have yet to learn their last names), New Characters: Judge Thomas Bander 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-6: Arana and Miguel are out on patrol one night. They find and beat up some hoodlums, and get them to squeal on a Judge Thomas Bander, an apparently corrupt judge who is working with the Sisterhood of the Wasp, and doing general corrupt official type deeds. (the Sisterhood is the main opponents to Aranas group, The Brotherhood of the Spider aka Webcorps. Because wasps hate spiders!) 

The hoodlums that Arana and Miguel capture tell them that Judge Bander is paying a secret visit to Court of Appeals at midnight tonight. Miguel calls up Ted, (Webcorps resident hacker) and gets him to hack into the Courts security systems. Miguel also calls Nina, (another Webcorps worker) telling her to come for back up. 

Pg. 7-16: Its supposedly midnight and thus, the next day. Arana, Miguel, and Nina head to the Court of Appeals. They catch Judge Bander sneaking into the building, to steal some files for the Sisterhood. They capture him and knock him unconscious. But just then, into the building burst several Wasp Agents which Miguel and Arana have to beat up, before Arana throws the unconscious judge into Ninas car, and they escape. 

Pg. 17-22: Narrative Caption reads, Later. Anya is sitting on a rooftop recovering from the battle. Miguel calls in and reports they safely have Judge Bander in custody. He tells Anya to take the next few days off, (he can tell shes coming down with a cold). Anya goes home to find her father, (Gil Corazon) cooking dinner. He tells her to get on with her homework. As they sit down for dinner, he gets a phone call from his reporter partner Dan, (they both are investigative reporters for a newspaper). After hanging up the phone, Gil mentions hes working on a piece investigating corrupt Judge Thomas Bander. So Anya learns they are both working on the same case. 

References: Because of the numerous references to homework, (and later on, we see scenes of her in school), this whole storyline is set during the school year. The weather appears to be relatively warm outside, (green grass and leafy trees, and people wearing short sleeve shirts). As I recall, Amazing Fantasy #1-6 was set right when the school year started, so this may be a short time later into the school year, (when the weather is still warm outside). In other words, theres a good possibility that not much time has passed since the Amazing Fantasy issues. 

Pgs. 17-22: The narrative caption does say Laterand the tone suggests its only a short time laterso I guess this is the same night, (after midnight), but as Anya heads home to have dinner at her household, the only thing I can figure is that her household must be on a different time schedule then most family households. Its nighttime in every scene in this issue, so I suppose if you want to ignore the midnight reference, then you can just put all of the events of this issue happening on the same evening. You cant spread pages 17-22 as happening the next evening, because on pg. 18, Miguel calls her on her cell phone and says, Good work tonight. 


Pg. 21- Gil notes that he works for the Heraldnot sure what newspaper thats supposed to be thoughfigured Id note it. 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #2 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz 

Appearances: Arana, (aka Anya Corazon), Miguel Legar, Gil Corazon, Vincent, Ted, Judge Thomas Bander, Lynn Sakura, New Character: Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya). 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-15, (panel 1-4, out of 6): This issue picks up the next day, or possibly a few short days later. 

Anya, Miguel, and Ted are interrogating Judge Bander back at Webcorps. They learn from him that Vincent, (the leader of the Wasps) is hiring an assassin to help the Wasps out in criminal endeavors. This assassin, (codenamed Amun) is to meet Vincent tonight at a secret rendezvous place in an abandoned warehouse. 

Anya heads home for a few hours, and catches her father writing up a story on Judge Bander for the newspaper. Anya tries to read the story when hes not looking, but doesnt learn too much about Judge Bander. She soon gets a phone call from Ted that its time to hook up with Miguel to break up Vincents meeting with Amun. 

Miguel arrives before Arana, and tries to break up the meeting between Vincent and Amun, but Vincent says that he purposefully had Judge Bander leak the information on this meeting to Webcorps, and that this is a trap, to give Amun a chance to prove himself by killing Miguel. Arana arrives, and all four do battle. Arana actually sees the face of Amun. All four retreat when the battle becomes a stalemate. When Arana tells Miguel that she saw the face of Amun, he says that she is now marked for death by Amun, and must now be on guard. 

Pg. 15, (panels 5-6, out of 6) to pg. 22: The next day. Anya is walking to school with her best friend Lynn. They go to class and have a quiz, when into the classroom walks Amun, whos now in his civilian clothes, and whom we learn is an Egyptian transfer student named Jon Kasiya. 

References: 

Pg. 18: Theres a brief flashback on this page. The flashback runs from panels 3-6, (out of 6): In it, Anya flashes back in her head to last night, wherein we see Miguel walked Arana home later that night after the battle. He does a perimeter check but determines that Amun didnt follow them. He tells her to come directly to Webcorps after she gets out of school tomorrow, and warns that her life is still in danger because she saw Amuns face. 


Arana: The Heart of the Spider #3 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz 

Appearances: Arana, (aka Anya Corazon), Miguel Legar, Gil Corazon, Vincent, Nina, Ted, Judge Thomas Bander, Lynn Sakura, Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya). New Character: Sam, (as in Samantha. Shes a member of the Wasps). 

Synopsis: All events in this issue happen on the same day. Picks up right where we left off last issue. 

Amun, (Jon Kasiya) is sitting down in class next to Anya. Lynn tries to get his attention, (she has already developed a crush on him), but Amun notices the spider tattoo on Anyas right arm. He suddenly remembers that tattoo last night while fighting Arana, and figures out this is her civilian identity. 

Cut to later, after school. Lynn thinks Jon is interested in Anya because she has a tattoo, and Lynn now wants to get a tattoo, but Anya discourages her, saying that Jons not worth it. Amun, meanwhile, starts snooping into details about Anyas life. 

We learn that Webcorps is moving Judge Thomas Bander to a safe house, until the law can prosecute him. The transfer is to happen as 10:00 pm tonight. Both sides prepare for action, (Miguel and Nina at Webcorps, and Vincent, and new character Sam, at the Wasps headquarters). 

Anya goes home to find her father Gil leaving. Hes going out on an assignment, and Anya quickly realizes hes investigating Judge Bander, and that she might run into him tonight when they do the transfer. She tries to find out what all her father knows by getting Ted to hack into his computer, but she doesnt learn much 

10:00 pm comes around, and an armed escort leaves Webcorps, transferring Judge Bander to the safe house. They get halfway there when the Wasps attack. Sam and Nina do battle, as do Arana and Amun. Sam kills Judge Bander, and Amun throws a dagger at Miguel, seriously wounding him. As they battle, Amun confirms to Arana that he knows her secret identity. He tells her to surrender and accept death, or he will kill everyone close to her. Just then, she stumbles across her father, videotaping the whole battle nearby. Shes in full costume mode, so he cant recognize her, but to get him out of the battle zone, she picks Gil up and carries him off to safety. She then destroys the video card for his digital camera. 

When she gets back, the battle is over, and the Wasps have fled. Miguel is being rushed to a medical facility back at Webcorps, and Arana feels like shes failed. She tells Nina shes going to go be alone 

References: 

Pg. 5: Theres a brief flashback on this page. The flashback runs from panels 1-3, (out of 6). In the flashback, we see Anya and Lynn at their 8th grade dance. Theyre a couple of wallflowers, because no guys invited them to dance. The moral of this flashback is that Boys suck, according to Lynn. As Anya is supposedly a freshman, (thus, in the 9th grade) this dance wouldve been last year some time 

Pg. 7: Amun is doing some computer hacking, and through it he finds Anyas birth certificate and her father Gils drivers license. Through this, we learn that Gils full name is Gilberto Corazon, and Anyas is Ana Sofia Corazon. And thats Ana, with a squiggly line over the n. How do you get Anya out of Ana? I figured Id note that for the MCP listing. 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #4 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz 

Appearances: Arana, (aka Anya Corazon), Miguel Legar, Gilberto (Gil) Corazon, Nina, Ted, Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya), Dan Stevens, Spiderman, (Peter Parker). 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1 and 2: The Next Day. Gil, (along with fellow reporter Dan Stevens) are sitting in a restaurant, going over the events of last night. Gil tells Dan about being rescued by the spider-thing girl, who confiscated his digital footage of the battle. 

Pgs. 3-23: This is probably the next day, (or possibly a few days later). I thought at first that the rest of this issue happened on the same day as pgs. 1 and 2, but a reference next issue puts this as happening at least the next day. 

Anyway, meanwhile, back at Webcorps, Miguels health is declining. We learn that he and Arana are linked, (as he is her partner) and that his health will continue to fade, until Arana comes back. Ted shows Nina a letter from Anya that was dropped off this morning. In the letter, Anya says that since Amun knows her secret identity, everyone around her is at risk, and shes staying away until she figures out how to deal with Amun. Ted gets on his bicycle and goes looking for her 

Cut to later on that eveningArana is sitting on a rooftop ledge, moping about her sad lot in life, when Spiderman comes swinging along, and pays her a visit. Spiderman says hes heard word on the streets about her, (the new crime fighter in town), but this is the first time meeting her. Arana explains shes actual going to stop being a crime fighter, because a villain learned her secret identity, and now everyone is in danger around her. Spidey has a heart-to-heart with her, telling her she cant quit when the going gets tough. 

Just then, Ted drives by on his bicycle below, being chased by some thugs in a car, (theres a side plot developing which hints at that Ted is wanted by some group of thugs). Arana leaps to the rescue, kicking the thugs butts, and Spiderman swings off, wishing her good luck. After the thugs are beaten, Ted begs Arana to come back to Webcorps. 

But then Amun shows up, and starts to attack Arana again. He has the upper hand at first, but Arana becomes angry, and her eyes start to glow, and she starts kicking Amuns butt. Ted warns that shes releasing the spirit of the hunter in her, and that she could go out of control. Amun decides to retreat for now, and Arana snaps out of it, not remembering the last few seconds of her rage. Ted says Miguel will have to explain what thats all about later, that they need to rush back to Webcorps now 

References: 

Pg. 2: Dan says that Gil witnessed a murder, last night. So that at least places the scene between Dan and Gil on pgs. 1 and 2 as happening the next day after Issue 3. 

Pg. 6: Theres a full moon in the sky when Spiderman confronts Arana on top of the building. 

Pg. 7, 8: Spiderman asks what the source of her powers are. She explains its the Great Weaver who supposedly bestowed powers onto her. Spiderman says that sounds familiar, and he says, I once saw something that could be a Great Weaver. But I dont know anything about it. And as he says that, we get a narrative caption, which says, See Amazing Spiderman #42. And we get a brief flashback panel to Spiderman meeting the Great Weaver in ASM2 42, (its a scene weve seen before, the scene where Spiderman meets the Giant Mystical Spider on the Astral Plane). 

So this is again a tie-in to the J. Michael Stracynski run on Amazing Spiderman. Not the strongest of tie-ins, but still 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #5 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz 

Appearances: Arana, (aka Anya Corazon), Miguel Legar, Nina, Ted, Lynn Sakura, Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya), Vincent 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-10: Picks up a short time later after the end of last issue. Anya and Ted arrive back at Webcorps and check on Miguel, who is still in the Medical Facility. When Anya gets near Miguel, he wakes up, (slowly recovering thanks to Anya being near). 

Meanwhile, Vincent is having a talk with Amun, telling him they are pleased with his work so far. Amun then asks about the origin of the Sisterhood of the Wasps, while at the exact same time, Anya asks about the history of the Brotherhood of the Spider. And we learn their origin, (which amounts to they both belonged to a group of Crusaders from Castile, (is that in France?). Back in the year 1099, they split into separate societies, one the Wasps and the other the Spiders. The Spiders seek to control crime by fighting it, the Wasps seek to control crime by ruling all criminal organizations). 

Anya goes on to ask that they do something with the mystical spider tattoo thats on her right arm, (she says thats how Amun recognized her). Miguel casts a spell and makes it vanish, letting her know it will reappear in times of crisis, (we basically learn it functions as somewhat of a spider sense) 

Pgs. 11-22: The Next Day. Anya is just getting out of school, and meets up with Lynn. Lynn has flowers, which she plans on giving to Jon, (Amun). Jon didnt show up for classes today, so she thinks he was sick. They go over to Jons house, (Anya not wanting to leave her alone around Amun). When Jon answers the doors, she tries to give him flowers and come inside, but Jon has his assassin weapons sprawled out all over the floor, and so he says, Uh, lets go out instead! 

So they go to a coffee shop, where they sit down and chat, (Jon and Anya just glare at each other, while Lynn chats with Anya and flirts with Jon). Just then, two other guys in the coffee shop start arguing with each other, (some sort of dispute over a mutual love interest). One of them whips out a gun and starts to blow the other away. Anya leg sweeps the gunman, and the gunman starts firing at Anya, who ducks behind a table with Lynn 

References: 

Pg. 1: As Ted and Anya arrive to check on Miguel, Nina is asleep next to Miguels bed. Ted says, Ninas been staying over every night, she doesnt have to, but Thus, its been more than one night since Issue 3, when Miguel was stabbed. 

Also on Pg. 1, theres a sliver (crescent) moon hanging in the sky above Webcorps. Since there was a full moon on page 6 last issue, Id chalk up these moons to being whatever the artist feels like drawing at the time. The sliver is on the moons right side, (our left side, as we look at it). 

Pg. 5: Vincent tells Amun, In two weeks were gathering powerful houses of the underworld for a summit. This is an event, which begins in Arana #7, (which is not a part of this review, as its the start of a new storyline). But I figured Id point out that Arana #7 is two weeks after Arana #5, (pgs. 1-10). 

Pg. 7, (panels 1-4, out of 4): This page has flashbacks to the Middle Ages while Vincent explains the history of the Wasps and the Spiders. 

Panel 1 shows a bunch of Crusader type knights standing around outside a castle, (this is supposedly when the Wasps and the Spiders were unified as one group of knights). 

Panel 2 shows the knights gathered around a table, studying religious scrolls. Vincent narrates Through the writings of the Arabs, we discovered mystical secrets and protection from forgotten, totemic resources deep underground. 

Panel 3 shows the two sides have now split, and the Spiders Knights are making war in the streets with the Wasp Knights. 

Panel 4: Another panel showing what I guess is the result of the battle. Theres a castle burning in the background, (I guess its the castle where they lived), and now we see both sides walking away from each other. The division between the Spiders and the Wasps is now complete. 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #6 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz 

Appearances: Arana, (aka Anya Corazon), Miguel Legar, Gilberto (Gil) Corazon, Nina, Ted, Lynn Sakura, Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya), Vincent 

Synopsis: Picks up right where we left off last issue. All events in this issue happen on the same day/evening. 

Arana and Lynn are stuck behind an overturned table dodging bullets. Jon just sits there in his chair, annoyed at the gunman. The gunman turns his gun towards Jon, but Arana figures she should try and save Jon. She throws a saltshaker at the gunman, striking him upside the head and knocking him out. She then tackles Jon, telling him to look out. But the gunman is unconscious. Jon wonders why she moved to save his life. 

Lynn asks who knocked out the gunman, (she didnt see anything cowering behind the table). Anya, (trying to make it look like shes not a superhero) says Jon did it. Which causes Lynn to have an even bigger crush on Jon. 

The police arrive, and they take Anya, Jon, and Lynn to the police station to file statements. In private, Jon tells Anya that since she made a move to protect his life from the gunman, he will not attack her friends and relatives, (like he was initially planning). But they are still enemies. Vincent arrives and takes Jon home, (Vincent is apparently Jons legal guardian while he stays in the U.S.). Gil, (Anyas dad) arrives and checks up on Lynn and Anya. 

Meanwhile, Nina takes Miguel home, (hes been discharged from Webcorps medical facility). Miguel looks forward to a peaceful night of sleep at home. But Nina calls up Ted, and asks him to hack into security cameras on the street, to be on the lookout for any suspicious activities. Nina then calls up Anya, telling her she might want to keep watch over Miguels place tonight in her Arana outfit. 

Cut to later on that night. Vincent, Amun, and a bunch of Wasp thugs break into Miguels house, and start to attack Miguel. Arana arrives and starts to kick butt. Arana eventually throws Miguel over her shoulder and dashes out a window back to Webcorps. 

Later on, at Webcorps, Arana explains to Miguel that Amun has come up with some sort of Code of Honor and wont attack her in her personal life. Miguel is told to stay at Webcorps until he is fully recovered, (that way Vincent and Amun wont make an attempt to assassinate him while hes healing). 

Arana goes home and congratulates herself on how the situation with Amun seems to have worked out(for now at least). The End. 

References: Pg. 11: As Vincent and Amun are leaving the police station, they strike up a conversation, and Amun asks what happened to the prior Chosen Hunter that Miguel was teamed up with. Vincent says, Thats a long and complicated story for another time, dear boy. This could be a reference to Ezekiel from the Stracynski issues of Amazing Spiderman, but since this book never wants to address the subject fully, we may never know. But I thought I would note it 

Pgs. 20 and 22 have full moons on them. Which is strange, considering it was a sliver moon last issue. 

That's it for now. Next up is my Daredevil issue reviews!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 11 Sep 2005 10:25 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
thats Ana, with a squiggly line over the n. How do you get Anya out of Ana? 
<<<

The "n-with-squiggle" is pronounced "ny". 

"A N-squiggle A" = "A(ny)a" 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Sep 2005 09:14 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Ah, I see...Thanks for the clarification, Jeph. If it's Japanese pronunciations needed, I can handle those, but my Spanish is severly lacking.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 09:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Kevin. Thanks for another very useful analysis. I condensed your review and reformatted it into calendar-type entries. Let me know if I have this right. 

Before I place this on the calendar, I need to test something out. Your hunch is that this story arc occurs shortly after the beginning of the school year shown in AAF2 1-6. If I insert this arc into that point on the calendar, it's likely going to fall in the weeks between Marvel Knights Spider-Man #6 and #7. Remember that this is the time in which Aunt May had been abducted and Spidey was desperate to find her. Does this make sense given Spidey's heart-to-heart talk with Arana in Arana #4? In that issue, Spidey tells Arana to keep on fighting crime even though it may threaten her family and friends. It doesn't appear that Spidey mentions May in his talk with Arana, but if that talk occurs between M/KSM 6 and 7, Spidey is practicing what he's preaching. He's still fighting the good fight even though his worst fears about his secret identity have been realized. Or, is placement of Arana #1-6 within the missing May story arc of M/KSM problematic? 

Anyway, here goes... 


ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #3  FB (5p1-5p3) 
One day, sometime before AAF2 1. It must be a year before AHOS 3. Anya and Lynn are a couple of wallflowers at their 8th grade dance. 


Friday 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #1 (1-6) 
One night during the school year. This segment occurs after AAF2 6. While on patrol, Arana and Miguel beat up some hoodlums and get them to squeal on Thomas Bander, an apparently corrupt judge working with the Sisterhood of the Wasp. The hoodlums say that Bander is paying a secret visit to Court of Appeals at midnight tonight. Miguel calls up Ted and gets him to hack into the Courts security systems. Miguel also calls Nina, telling her to come for back up. 

Saturday 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #1 (7-22) 
The day after AHOS 1 (1-6). At midnight, Arana, Miguel, and Nina catch Bander sneaking into the Court of Appeals to steal files for the Sisterhood. They capture him and knock him unconscious, but several Wasp agents burst in. Miguel and Arana beat them up, Arana throws the unconscious judge into Ninas car, and they escape. Later, Anya sits on a rooftop recovering from the battle. Miguel calls in and reports they have Bander in custody. He tells Anya to take the next few days off because shes coming down with a cold. Anya goes home to find her father cooking dinner (apparently early in the morning!). He tells her to get on with her homework. As they sit down for dinner, he gets a phone call from his reporter partner Dan. After hanging up the phone, Gil mentions hes working on a piece investigating corrupt Bander. We see green grass, leafy trees, and short sleeves. 

Sunday 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #2 (1-15p4) 
One day, shortly after AHOS 1 (7-22). Anya, Miguel, and Ted interrogate Bander at Webcorps. They learn from him that Vincent, the leader of the Wasps, is hiring an assassin named Amun to help the Wasps out in criminal endeavors. Amun is to meet Vincent tonight at a secret rendezvous place in an abandoned warehouse. Anya heads home for a few hours and catches her father writing up a story on Bander for the newspaper. Anya tries to read the story when hes not looking, but doesnt learn much. She soon gets a phone call from Ted that its time to hook up with Miguel to break up Vincents meeting with Amun. Miguel arrives before Arana and tries to break up the meeting between Vincent and Amun, but Vincent says that he purposefully had Bander leak the information on this meeting to Webcorps, and that this is a trap to give Amun a chance to prove himself by killing Miguel. Arana arrives and all four battle. All four retreat when the battle becomes a stalemate. When Arana tells Miguel that she saw the face of Amun during the battle, he says that she is now marked for death by Amun, and must be on guard. 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #2  FB 
The same night as AHOS 2 (1-15). Miguel walks Arana home. He does a perimeter check but determines that Amun didnt follow them. He tells her to come directly to Webcorps after she gets out of school tomorrow and warns that her life is still in danger. 

Monday 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #2 (15p5-22) 
The day after AHOS 2-FB. Anya walks to school with her best friend Lynn. They go to class and have a quiz, when into the classroom walks Amun, whos posing as an Egyptian transfer student named Jon Kasiya. 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #3 
The same day as AHOS 2 (15-22). It must be a year after AHOS 3-FB (5p1-5p3). Kasiya sits down in class next to Anya, notices the spider tattoo on her arm, and figures out that Anya is Arana. After school, Amun starts snooping into Anyas private life. Webcorps plans to move Bander to a safe house at 10:00 pm tonight. Both sides prepare for action  Miguel and Nina at Webcorps, and Vincent and Sam at the Wasps headquarters. Anya goes home to find her father going out on an assignment, realizes hes investigating Bander, and thinks that she might run into him tonight. She tries to find out all her father knows by getting Ted to hack into his computer, but she doesnt learn much. That night the Wasps attack the armed escort going from Webcorps to the safe house. Sam kills Bander and Amun wounds Miguel with a dagger. Amun tells Arana that he knows her secret identity and tells her to surrender or he will kill everyone close to her. Just then, she sees her father videotaping the battle nearby. She grabs him, carries him to safety, and destroys the video card for his digital camera. When she gets back, the battle is over and the Wasps have fled. Miguel is rushed to a medical facility at Webcorps and Arana feels like shes failed. 

Tuesday 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #4 (1-2) 
The day after AHOS 3. Gil Corazon and Dan Stevens sit in a restaurant and go over the events of last night. Gil tells Dan about being rescued by the spider-thing girl who confiscated his digital footage of the battle. 

Thursday 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #4 (3-23) 
One day, shortly after AHOS 4 (1-2). At Webcorps, Miguels health is declining; he and Arana are linked and his health will continue to fade until Arana comes back. In a letter, Anya informs Webcorps that shes staying away until she figures out how to deal with Amun. Ted goes looking for her. That evening, Spider-Man encounters Arana for the first time. Arana explains shes going to stop being a crime fighter because a villain learned her secret identity and now everyone is in danger around her. Spidey tells her she cant quit when the going gets tough. Just then, Ted drives by on his bicycle below, chased by some thugs in a car. Arana leaps to the rescue, kicking the thugs butts, and Spider-Man swings off, wishing her good luck. After the thugs are beaten, Ted begs Arana to come back to Webcorps, but then Amun shows up and starts to attack Arana again. He has the upper hand at first, but Arana becomes angry, her eyes start to glow, and she starts kicking Amuns butt. Ted warns that shes releasing the spirit of the hunter in her, and that she could go out of control. Amun retreats and Arana snaps out of it, not remembering her rage. Full moon. 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #5 (1-10) 
The same night as AHOS 4 (3-23). It is two weeks before AHOS 7. Anya and Ted arrive back at Webcorps and check on Miguel, who is still in the medical facility, where Ninas been staying over every night, keeping vigil. When Anya gets near Miguel, he recovers. Meanwhile, Vincent tells Amun they are pleased with his work so far. Amun then asks about the origin of the Sisterhood of the Wasps, while at the exact same time, Anya asks about the history of the Brotherhood of the Spider. To protect Anyas identity, Miguel casts a spell and makes her tattoo vanish. He tells her it will reappear in times of crisis. The waning crescent moon is inconsistent with the full moons of AHOS 4 and 6. 

Friday 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #5 (11-22) 
The day after AHOS 5 (1-10). Anya gets out of school and meets up with Lynn, who has flowers for Jon because his absence from school leads her to believe hes sick. They go to Jons house and try to go inside, but Jon has his assassin weapons sprawled out all over the floor, so he suggests going out instead. They go to a coffee shop, where Jon and Anya glare at each other, while Lynn chats with Anya and flirts with Jon. An argument between two other guys in the coffee shop turns into an armed attack. Anya leg sweeps the gunman, and the gunman starts firing at Anya, who ducks behind a table with Lynn. 
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #6 
The same day as AHOS 5 (11-22). Anya subdues the gunman, saving Jons life. Protecting her identity, Anya makes it look like Jon is the hero, which increases Lynns crush. Which causes Lynn to have an even bigger crush on Jon. The police arrive and take Anya, Jon, and Lynn to the police station to file statements. Jon privately tells Anya that since she saved his life, he will not attack her friends and relatives, but they are still enemies. Vincent arrives and takes Jon home, and Gil arrives and checks up on Lynn and Anya. Meanwhile, Nina takes Miguel home, from Webcorps medical facility and calls Anya to ask her to keep watch over Miguels place as Arana. Later that night, Vincent, Amun, and a bunch of Wasp thugs break into Miguels house and attack Miguel. Arana arrives, kicks butt, and escapes with Miguel to Webcorps, where Arana explains to Miguel that Amun wont attack her in her personal life. Miguel is told to stay at Webcorps until he is fully recovered, and Arana goes home. Full moon. 

ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #7 
One day, two weeks after AHOS 5 (1-10).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Sep 2005 11:53 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Before I place this on the calendar, I need to test something out. Your hunch is that this story arc occurs shortly after the beginning of the school year shown in AAF2 1-6. If I insert this arc into that point on the calendar, it's likely going to fall in the weeks between Marvel Knights Spider-Man #6 and #7. Remember that this is the time in which Aunt May had been abducted and Spidey was desperate to find her. Does this make sense given Spidey's heart-to-heart talk with Arana in Arana #4? In that issue, Spidey tells Arana to keep on fighting crime even though it may threaten her family and friends. It doesn't appear that Spidey mentions May in his talk with Arana, but if that talk occurs between M/KSM 6 and 7, Spidey is practicing what he's preaching. He's still fighting the good fight even though his worst fears about his secret identity have been realized. Or, is placement of Arana #1-6 within the missing May story arc of M/KSM problematic?  
<<<

Well, on one hand, you're right: Spidey would definently be practising what he's preaching. There's nothing truly problematic about that placement, except for it just seems a bit ackward. The Spidey in Arana #4 is the usual happy-go-lucky Spiderman. The Spiderman on display in MK:S-M is a "boo-hoo" whiner. Personally, I blame Mark Millar's writing.  Maybe Spider-man puts on a happy face in general when meeting up with new superheroes? 

On the other hand, Paul, really, it's just the school and weather references that made me say that it's probably not long after Amazing Fantasy #1-6. There's no actual text references tying us down to this period on the calender. Well, wait...It can't be several months later, (well into the next year sometime) because Vincent says the Wasps can perform the ritual to get their own "chosen hunter" once a year, (this is why they hire Amun, because they don't have their own hunter). His words indicate it's still some time away before the Wasps can perform the ritual. So it's not sometime in the next year after Amazing Fantasy #1-6. 

Also, Arana #8 shows a strong snow storm has hit New York, and so that would place it during winter time. Only 2 weeks pass between Arana #5 and #7, and probably not much time has passed between Arana #7 and 8, (though it's unclear). 

My best bet is that all this occurs sometime during the Fall school semester, (from September to December) but I couldn't say exactly when. 


Quote: 
>>>
ARANA: THE HEART OF THE SPIDER #2  FB  
<<<

I think you need to place panel ranges after this...I believe it should read: (18p3-18p6) correct? 


Quote: 
>>>
Protecting her identity, Anya makes it look like Jon is the hero, which increases Lynns crush. Which causes Lynn to have an even bigger crush on Jon. 
<<<

You're repeating yourself here. Just trying to help you condense your text.  

Other than that, it looks great!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 19 Sep 2005 06:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
My best bet is that all this occurs sometime during the Fall school semester, (from September to December) but I couldn't say exactly when.  
<<<

If there's a problem reconciling Spidey appearances, my best option right now may be to place Arana #1-6 on December 5-12, with #7 just prior to Christmas. 


Quote: 
>>>
I think you need to place panel ranges after this...I believe it should read: (18p3-18p6) correct?  
<<<

Not unless there's more than one flashback in that issue. If only one FB exists, there's no need to specify page/panel ranges. 


Quote: 
>>>
You're repeating yourself here. Just trying to help you condense your text. 
<<<

Thanks for catching that. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 43

Posted: 20 Sep 2005 01:01 am    Post subject: M/CP 120/4: Spider-Man
By Col_Fury

M/CP 120/4: Spider-Man 
Along Came a Child 
W: Kieth Planit 
D: Ed Murr 
Published: January 1993 

Appearances: Spider-Man(Peter Parker), J. Jonah Jameson, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Joe Robertson. 

Synopsis: 
Pg. 1-4: Spider-Man beats up some muggers. 
Pg5pn1: Spider-Man gives some guy his wallet back. 
Pg5pn2: A curly-haired guy sees Spider-Man jumping away, remembers something. 
Pg5pn3: FlashBack: Curly-haired guy as a kid watches Peter Parker crawling up a wall from Amazing Fantasy 15; redrawn panel, it even has the same dialogue. 
Pg5pn4: Curly-haired guy, thinking some more. 
Pg5pn5: FlashBack: Curly-haired kid watches Peter parker jump off the wall. 
Pg6pn1: Curly-haired guy looks at the Daily Bugle building. 
Pg6pn2: Next Day; Petes selling photos to JJJ whos really happy. 
Pg6pn3&4: Pete asks a random reporter why JJJs so happy, she tells him someone can give a description of Spider-Man under the mask. 
Pg7pn1: Swinging away, Spider-Man wonders who it could beDoc Ock? NoMaybe Green Goblin? Nahbut who? 
Pg7pn2: Next Day; Mary Janes reading the paper. 
Pg7pn3-5: Joe Robertsons telling JJJ this is no way to run a paper. Spider-Man appears in the window, JJJ yells at him. 
Pg8pn1: That night, Spider-Man comes home through the skylight. 
Pg8pn2-5: Next Day; Mary Jane has the new paper, but the police sketch of the Curly-haired guys description looks nothing like Peter Parker. 

The FlashBack is already placed in the MCP, so heres the rest: 

Spider-Man/Peter Benjamin Parker 
S-M 31 
*M/CP 120/4 
ASM 368 

Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
S-M 31 
*M/CP 120/4 
ASM 368 

Jameson, J. Jonah 
S-M 29 
*M/CP 120/4 
ASM 368 

Robertson, Joe 
S-M 25 
*M/CP 120/4 
ASM 368/2 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Thread 44

Posted: 20 Sep 2005 02:12 am    Post subject: M/CP 119/2-122/2: Ghost Rider/Cloak & Dagger
By Col_Fury

M/CP 119/2: Ghost Rider/Cloak & Dagger 
And Let There be Light pt 1 
the Door 
W: Paula Foye 
D: Alexander Morrissey 
Published: January 1993 

Appearances: Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Cloak, Dagger, Grimbat. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-4: Grimbat appears out of a portal & interrupts Dagger feeding Cloak light energy. Grimbat knocks Cloak & kills a drunk, takes Dagger back to his dimension of Zianon to be his bride, because he needs her light energy. Cloak wakes up disoriented, & sucks an innocent bystander into his cloak. He then realizes what he did, feels guilty, spits the guy back out. 
Pg5-7: Ghost Rider senses the spilled blood of the innocent drunk, goes to the alley where Cloak is & attacks, which jolts Cloak out of his confusion. He tells Ghost Rider what happened. Theyre pals now! 
Pg8: Grimbat reappears, & hes been sucking light energy from people which leaves them dazed. He calls Ghost Rider a light being, I guess because hes on fire. Said fire could mean more light energy for his world. Between you & Dagger, I shall never have to leave my planet again. He grabs Ghost Rider, & Cloak follows through the portal. 

M/CP 120/2: Ghost Rider/Cloak & Dagger 
And Let There be Light pt 2 
In a Dark Place 
W: Paula Foye 
D: Alexander Morrissey 
Published: January 1993 

Appearances: Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Cloak, Dagger, Grimbat. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-2: Ghost Rider & Cloak appear in Zianon with Grimbat out of the portal. 
Pg3: Dagger is in Grimbats castle, surrounded by his minions. How do we know? Theyre all wearing the same necklace that he is. 
Pg4: Ghost Rider & Cloak teleport to the castle, amazingly right where Dagger is. 
Pg5-6: Grimbat attacks with a bunch of giant armadillo demons. Ghost Rider & Cloak are chained up, Dagger goes off with Grimbat. Cloak feels the need to yell Hes hypnotizing her! 
Pg7: In a prison, a termite demon explains that Grimbat drains light from others to give to the inhabitants of Zianon, because theres no sun. Dagger could supply unlimited light, then the termite uses an analogy of baby birds & pre-digested food Ghost Rider breaks his chains!(gasp!) 
Pg8: Grimbat gives Dagger a pink cape. 

M/CP 121/2: Ghost Rider/Cloak & Dagger 
And Let There be Light pt 3 
the Bride of Grimbat 
W: Paula Foye 
D: Alexander Morrissey 
Published: February 1993 

Appearances: Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Cloak, Dagger, Grimbat, Melnoa. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-3: Ghost Rider & Cloak break out of prison, & drive through a maze on his motorcycle. Theyre attacked by Keebler Elf demons who want Ghost Riders light. One is sucked into Cloaks cloak, but it hurts Cloak. The painof their darknesseven too muchfor me 
Pg4-6: Dagger is being pampered by Keebler Elf demons when an old woman named Melnoa walks in, who says Your friends are not free. Dagger totally flips out & rips off her jewelry & cape. Melnoa tells Dagger about the maze & gives her a key that looks like everyones necklaces. Dagger uses the key to open a trap door in the floor that leads to stairs, which in turn leads to the maze. She finds Ghost Rider & Cloak very quickly, & they all go up the stairs. But whos crying? 
Pg7-8: Grimbat is! He attacks! Melnoa distracts Grimbat, so Dagger blinds him. Melnoa says that shes the Bride of Grimbat.(shock!) 

M/CP 122/2: Ghost Rider/Cloak & Dagger 
And Let There be Light pt 4 
the Light Within 
W: Paula Foye 
D: Alexander Morrissey 
Published: February 1993 

Appearances: Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Cloak, Dagger, Grimbat, Melnoa. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-4: Grimbat is still blinded from Daggers light blast, but then he mutates! I am finally capable of becoming anything I desire! he says. So he grows two goofy extra heads, knocks Cloak across the room, & grabs Dagger. Ghost Rider attacks & gives one of the heads the Penance Stare, said head goes limp. 
Pg5-7: Melnoa is revealed as Daggers predecessor in Zianon, until her powers dried up. Grimbat thought she was dead, but she was just hiding. Cloak sucks Grimbat into his cloak to teach him a lesson. When he falls out, hes seen the error of his ways & suggests that Dagger shoot him again so he can become a being of pure light. She & Melnoa do it, but after Grimbat belches out a portal back to Earth. 
Pg8: Ghost Rider, Cloak, & Dagger go back to Earth, Melnoa goes outside the castle where its light outside. Dagger is seen back at her apartment thinking I wont ever forget wearing the tiara Melnoa gave her. 

Ugh: 
Why would Grimbat come back to Earth to drain light out of humans after he got Dagger? Why introduce a maze in the story if everyone is found so quickly, & it had no relevance to the plot? Why is Melnoa the only human looking character in a world filled with purple demons? Is Zianon a planet or a dimension? How does Cloak make such huge leaps in logic? Is Dagger bipolar or something? Why is Dagger feeding Cloak in an alley where no one can see us if she has an apartment? Why go out at all? Why was Ghost Rider even in this story? If light by fire was all Grimbat needed, why not just start a fire? Why the heck was Grimbat crying? Why is ah, never mind. 

Cloak/Tyrone Johnson 
WOSM@ 9/2 
*M/CP 119/2 
*M/CP 120/2 
*M/CP 121/2 
*M/CP 122/2 
NW 32 

Dagger/Tandy Bowen 
WOSM@ 9/2 
*M/CP 119/2 
*M/CP 120/2 
*M/CP 121/2 
*M/CP 122/2 
NW 32 

Ghost Rider III/Dan Ketch 
SOV 6 
*M/CP 119/2 
*M/CP 120/2 
*M/CP 121/2 
*M/CP 122/2 
GR3 33 

Grimbat 
*M/CP 119/2 
*M/CP 120/2 
*M/CP 121/2 
*M/CP 122/2 

Melnoa 
*M/CP 121/2 
*M/CP 122/2 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Thread 45

Posted: 20 Sep 2005 01:17 am    Post subject: M/CP 121/3: Mirage
By Col_Fury

M/CP 121/3: Mirage 
Of Faith and Fable 
W: Jaye Gardner 
D: Joe Madureira 
Published: February 1993 

Appearances: Mirage(Danielle Moonstar), Mist, Hotamitanio. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-3: Asgard; Mirage & Mist are training, Mirage becomes trapped in an energy bubble. 
Pg4-6: Mist fights the mystery man who trapped Mirage. 
Pg6: Mirage breaks free. 
Pg7: Mirage breaks up the fight, the mystery man is revealed as Hotamitanio, a Cheyenne god. He feels that Mirage has betrayed her culture & heritage and has come to take her back to Earth. 
Pg8: Mirage explains that she didnt choose to become a Valkyrie, but saving Brightwind made her one. Shes now of both cultures. Hotamitanio leaves, Mirage & Mist hug. 

I was surprised to see a listing for Hotamitanio already in the MCP. Is this the same character from Dr. Strange, vol.3, #25? I dont own many issues of Dr. Strange, so I cant check, but I cant see how it would be a different character. 

Mirage/Danielle Moonstar 
NM 87 
*M/CP 121/3 
XFOR 27 

Mist 
*M/CP 121/3 
XFOR 97 

Hotamitanio 
DRSTR3 25 
*M/CP 121/3 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

Last edited by Col_Fury on 26 Oct 2005 02:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 04:33 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Mist previously appeared in NMSE 1, UX@ 9, and NM 79. 

-Sean

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Thread 46

Posted: 19 Sep 2005 12:04 am    Post subject: Chronology Review for Daredevil: Father #2
By Kevin W.
Director

The epic miniseries continues!  It might be good to reread my chronology review for DD: Father #1, which can be found here: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=751 

Anyway, on with the review of DD: Father #2. The first and foremost thing to note is that this is no longer a timeless tale, (which is what I thought it was last issue). References in this issue definitely put this miniseries smack dab in the middle of the present day, (its mixed in with the Bendis mess). Read on to see what I mean 

Daredevil: Father #2 
Written and Drawn by Joe Quesada 

Appearances: Daredevil, (Matt Murdock), Jessica Jones, Foggy Nelson, Maggie Farrell, Sean Farrell, Nestor Nero Rodriguez, Jack Murdock, (in flashback), New Characters: Candy Cotton and Randy Firkandi, (two television reporters), NYC Police Commissioner Roger Smith, Detective Chris Gonzalez, Kristy McKaden, (the latest victim of the serial killer), Coco Dior, (another reporter), and Sammy Rico, (bouncer at a bar). Most of these names we will probably never hear again outside of this miniseries, but I figured it was best to note them. 

Synopsis: Pg. 1-3: IT IS 3 WEEKS SINCE THE END OF LAST ISSUE. Its late at night, and Nero is watching the late night news again inside his house. The news highlight is about the serial killer on the loose in New York City, (the press has dubbed him Johnny Sockets because of how he cuts out the eyes of the women he kills). A woman comes into his room and tells him its time to go to the club. 

Pgs. 4-13: Matt cant sleep because of how quiet Hells Kitchen is, and because of how hot the heat wave is, so he goes out on patrol as Daredevil, (which he admits is pointless, since hes pretty well removed all of the crime from Hells Kitchen). As he patrols, his heightened senses pick up a commotion coming from the downtown Chelsea section of NYC. He at first thinks, not my neighborhood but decides to go investigate. When he gets there, he lands on a rooftop to see the criminals all tied up on the ground, and the police are just pulling up. A Det. Chris Gonzalez asks whats going on, and another police officer says these criminals are part of a drug ring, which a group of new superheroes just busted up. The new superheroes apparently call themselves the Santerians(nobody actually saw them, thats just the name they left scrawled upon the window). 

Pg. 14-17: THIS IS THE NEXT NIGHT, OR PERHAPS A FEW NIGHTS LATER: This is somewhat difficult to explain. Nero is watching the news again at night in this scene, and the reporters on the screen have breaking news that Johnny Sockets has just killed another woman. The reporter on the scene, (who identifies herself as Coco Dior) is interviewing Sammy Rico, a bouncer who witnessed the murder in the back alley behind the nightclub hes a bouncer at. As Nero watches the news, we flashback to the actual murder itself, (which happened just a short bit earlier in the evening). 

The exact panels containing the flashbacks are Pg. 14, panels 1-3, 5-7, (out of 7), Pg. 15, panels 2-4, (out of 5), Pg. 16, panels 1-3, 5-7, (out of 7), and Pg. 17, panels 2-4, (out of 5). This flashback is seen through the killers eyes. Hes in a nightclub getting a girl drunk. They eventually head out into the back alley behind the club, and he kills her. One of the clubs bouncers steps out the back door and scares off the killer, who runs away. 

The panels set in the present are Pg. 14, panel 4, Pg. 15, panels 1 and 5, Pg. 16, panel 4, and Pg. 17, panels 1 and 5. This scene shows Nero watching the news again, sweat running down his forehead, as the reporter interviews the bouncer who witnessed the murder. Coco Dior notes that the body of the victim was found an hour ago, so that places the flashback as having happened an hour prior. 

Pg. 18-20: THE NEXT EVENING. Narrative Caption on pg. 18 reads, The Offices of Nelson & Murdock. 10:58 pm. Matt and Foggy are going over their latest case with Maggie Farrell, (their latest client). Sitting in as well is Jessica Jones, whom Matt is trying to bring in as a private investigator for the case. They start talking to Maggie, when Jessica asks Maggie to take off her sunglasses, (shes wondering why shes wearing them indoors). Maggie takes them off and she has a black eye. She says she ran into a doorframe. Matt speaks to her in private, asking if her husband Sean did this to her. She says he didnt, but Matt can tell shes lying. She storms out of the office angry that Matts asking about her personal life. 

Pg. 21-30: ITS EITHER LATER THAT SAME NIGHT, OR THE NEXT EVENING. IM LEANING TOWARDS THE NEXT EVENING. Matt is spying on Maggie and Sean at their house in Hoboken, New Jersey. Hes not in costume, but he is in a trench coat and hat, (which I guess is his idea of being inconspicuous). Maggie and Sean have a fight, (over her having cancer), and Sean leaves the house. Sean says he likes to go for walks in the city, but Maggie accuses him of having another lover. Matt follows Sean back up to New York City, and starts leaping around from rooftop to rooftop, in an effort to spy on Sean. Suddenly, he is blasted out of the sky by some sort of energy attack, and falls to the ground. We see a bunch of costumed characters standing over the fallen Matt Murdock, ready to kick butt, (these must be the Santerians). 

TO BE CONTINUED 

The story is basically giving us two possible suspects for the Johnny Sockets killings, (either Nero or Sean Farrell), but I guess were going to have to wait till the miniseries is over to have the mystery solved. Guh 

References: 

Pg. 1: Candy Cotton says right on the first page, Day Twenty of whats being called the deadliest heat wave in New York History. Going by the fact that this is around Fathers Day, (according to last issue), it makes sense for their to be a heat wave, (in other words, its summer time). 

Also on Pg. 1: Candy Cotton also says, (in regards to the latest homicide), If true, this will be the third such murder in as many weeks. So its been 3 weeks since his first victim then. And since the first victim was last issue, then its been 3 weeks since last issue. 

Pg. 2: Randy Firkandi reports, In related news, Police Commissioner Roger Smith confirmed today, during a tense press conference, that recent surveys showing large increases in crime rates in Tribeca, Murray Hill and Manhattans Upper West Side were, indeed, accurate. The commissioner went on to blame the current heat wave and the recent actions of the Hells Kitchen Vigilante known as Daredevil for the sudden shift." 

The shift of crime from Hells Kitchen to other parts of New York is reflective of Daredevil becoming the new Kingpin, as detailed in DD2 56. In that issue, Luke Cage and the other superheroes confronted Matt about the shift in crime to their neighborhoods. 

Pg. 4: DD narrates to himself that its quiet outside tonight, and he says its been that way, Since I kicked the bad guys out of Hells Kitchen. Thus, another reference to Bendiss storyline. 

Pg. 6: A brief one page flashback, (its a splash page), showing Matts father Jack sitting in a chair getting drunk and thinking about Maggie, (Matts mother). Matts on the floor doing homework. This was apparently before Matt went blind as a child, (judging that we are seeing this scene through Matts eyes). 

Theres a flashback on the following pages, but I dont believe it counts, (its the classic scene of how Matt got his superpowers by pushing the old man out of the way of the truck): The flashback runs on the following pages and panels: 

Pg. 8, panel 4, (out of 4), and pages 9 and 10, (theres 2 panels on pg. 9, the 2nd of which spreads over onto pg. 10. Pg. 10 has 2 panels as well, the first panel is the other half of the page 9 panel, and the flashback ends there. The 2nd, (and last) panel on pg. 10 jumps back to the present day. The flashback has no new information, but I figured Id make note of it, just in case 

Pg. 17: Candy Cotton reports, Coming Up: Police Commission Smith given the boot! More on that after these messages! Thats what leads me to believe that pgs. 14-17 happens the next night, or a few nights later. Because in the last news broadcast, (from pages 1-3), the Commissioner was being grilled by the press, and was under pressure to resign. And I find it unlikely that the commissioner went from under pressure to resign to being given the boot in the same news broadcast. 

Pg. 18: When Jessica Jones introduces herself to Maggie, she says, Im a private investigator. Well, thats what she was before the Pulse #1, when J. Jonah Jameson gave her a new job as a consultant for the Daily Bugle. So this is before Pulse #1. Unless Jessica is still doing some private investigating on the side, but I dont believe thats what the Pulse has lead us to believe, (so far) 

Also, in this scene with Jessica Jones, we see that she is clearly not visibly pregnant 

Pg. 30: One of the members of the Santerians says to his teammate, (who blasted Matt down from off the roof), Congratulations, Orisha, youve conquered the Devil. Since Matts not in his DD costume, this is simply another clue that Matts publicly known to be DD at this point. 

So where to place this miniseries? DD: Father #1 says the first issue occurs on Fathers Day. I get the feeling this was supposed to be set during the 1 year gap, but theres no sign of Milla Donovan, (Matts girlfriend and wife, from the pages of Daredevil). And besides, Matt supposedly didnt dress up as Daredevil after the 6 weeks period mentioned in DD2 56. Perhaps this is after Matt and Milla break up in DD2 60? Thats a possibilitythough Jessica Jones is a private investigator, and clearly not visibly pregnant. Maybe this is after shes had the baby? And maybe shes doing some private investigating on the side? The news reporter on pg. 2 does note that the crime in NYC has moved to different areas because of Daredevils recent actionswhich would seem to indicate that DD declaring himself the New Kingpin wasnt that long agobut perhaps the word recent is a relative term 

It might be best to just wait and see where the next few issues take us, (though its probably going to take a little while longer for this miniseries to finishespecially if Joe Quesada gets delayed again)
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 08:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, so this series happens after Matt cleans up Hell's Kitchen, AND: 
1) he's in costume as Daredevil; 
2) he has no goatee; and 
3) there's no sign of Milla 

So...is there any chance that, while DD2 is busy going back and filling in that supposed "year" of Matt's clean-up, DD:F is the comic that actually shows Daredevil in the "present day?" Could the Father's Day and summer heatwave actually pertain to THIS year (calendar year 23) as opposed to the June/summer of LAST year (year 22, in which Matt's doing his clean-up)? This would place DD:F close to other recent DD appearances, such as M/TU3 9-10. 

But then that would mean that Jessica Jones should look pregnant in DD:F 2. Then again, there are so many problems with that #@!^& pregnancy anyway... 

Of course, such is the risk that any writer makes when trying to tie their stories into those written by the incomparable Bendis.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 09:17 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Could the Father's Day and summer heatwave actually pertain to THIS year (calendar year 23) as opposed to the June/summer of LAST year (year 22, in which Matt's doing his clean-up)? This would place DD:F close to other recent DD appearances, such as M/TU3 9-10. 
<<<

That's the theory I'm leaning towards for now. Issue #3 comes out tomorrow. I'll probably do a review for it soon, (and maybe this miniseries will continue to come out on a monthly basis and be finished by December). 

Also, look for my review of DD2 #71-75 to be posted in the next few days...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Sep 2005 05:48 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sounds great, Kevin. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 47

Posted: 21 Sep 2005 11:27 pm    Post subject: M/CP 121/4: Andromeda
By Col_Fury

M/CP 121/4: Andromeda 
"Civil Disabilities" 
W: Karl Bollers 
D: Mark Moretti 
Published: Feb 1993 

Appearances: Andromeda, Nautak, Xiomara 

Quick Recap: 
Attuma(who doesn't appear here) is the current ruler of Atlantis. Andromeda is his daughter, she's the leader of the rebels. Nautak used to be her second in command, but now he serves under Attuma. Xiomara is a hot-headed rebel. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-3: Andromeda & Nautak are fighting along with a bunch of Atlantians. Andromeda tells Xiomara to retreat, but she gives Andromeda 'attitude' instead. An explosion knocks Andromeda out. 
pg4: Andromeda wakes up in a cave,(which happens to be a hidden weapons arsenal) but is shot by Xiomara who thinks that Andromeda is a traitor. As she prepares to kill her... 
pg5: Nautak attacks! As Attuma's army fights with the rebels, Andromeda kills Nautak. 
pg6-7: Andromeda retrieves her trident, she finds a horn which she uses to call the Kraken! This is not the same Kraken that Namor used to attack New York, but one of the 5 left. It destroys the cave and all the weapons hidden in it. 
pg8: the amry & rebels are retreating together, all of them beaten & bruised. Xiomara tries to apologize to Andromeda, but she is still upset. She destroys the horn and swims away. 

This is a different Kraken, and I don't see any listings for Nautak or Xiomara. So it looks like Andromeda is the only one to place, so here's a suggestion: 

Andromeda II/Andromeda Attumasen 
DAMCON3 4 
*M/CP 121/4 
N49 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Thread 48

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 12:32 am    Post subject: M/CP 122/4: Knights of Pendragon
By Col_Fury

M/CP 122/4: Knights of Pendragon 
"Seeds of Winter" 
W: Skip Dietz 
D: Hoang Nguyen 
Published: February 1993 

Appearances: Grace, Union jack, Crown, Albion(Peter Hunter), Shadow Wing. 

Quick Recap: 
"Crown- the reincarnation of King Arthur, Albion- the reincarnation of Merlin, Grace- the reincarnation of Morgause, & Union Jack. Together, they form the modern-day version of the Knights of the Round Table. But can their combined might prevent an ancient evil from bringing death to their land? 

Synopsis: 
pg1-3: The Knights of Pendragon are inspecting crop circles in southern Britain when they're trapped in a mystic field. Shadow Wing- Lord of the Bane has trapped them and wants to kill them. 
pg4-7: After defeating the rest, Shadow Wing throws his staff at Crown.(like an idiot) The staff can break the spell, and once Crown has it, he does. Shadow Wing runs away, the staff turns to wheat then dust. 
pg8: Apparently, Shadow Wing is the head of Vetraseed Corporation and is planning more evil stuff. 

A quick spot of research reveals that this issue of M/CP was published the same month as Knights of Pendragon II #8. I've never read vol 1 or 2 of this series, & I can't find any listings for any of these characters in the MCP. The Union Jack that appears here wears a big ugly suit of armor, so I'm inclined to believe that it isn't a Union Jack we've seen outside of the KoP series'. Using the 'search' function here, all I could find was a confusing entry about King Arthur utilizing brackets and such. 

Anybody have an idea of where this would fit with the Pendragon series?
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 06:43 am    
By Ant-Man

I placed that story between Issues #9 (wrapping up the Spider-Man storyline) and #10 (beginning the Baron Blood storyline) of Knights of Pendragon vol. 2 

That Union Jack in the "big ugly suit of armor" is Joey Chapman, the 3rd Union Jack
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 49

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: M/CP 122/3: Speedball
By Col_Fury

M/CP 122/3: Speedball 
"Taped Confessions" 
W: Fabien Nicieza 
D: Paris Karounos 
Published: February 1993 

Appearances: Speedball(Robbie Baldwin), Pulitzer patty, Dave Bealer, Rage(Elvin Halliday). 

Synopsis: 
pg1-2: Hartford, Conneticut; Pulitzer Patty is videotaping a smuggling operation, but drops her purse. She runs away, but the smugglers have her information. 
pg3-6: Springdale Highschool, Springdale, Conneticut; the next day; At the end of the school day, Robbie & Dave see Patty being harrassed by the smugglers. They run off with her bag, Robbie follows. He turns into Speedball under the bleachers, stops their van, & follows the guy with Patty's bag into the subway. He gets the bag back, it has her videocamera inside. 
pg7: Later that day, Robbie & Patty are watching the tape, and get the smuggler's van's license plate number. Robbie says he knows a guy who can hadle it... 
pg8: Later that night; Brooklyn, New York; The smugglers are at their apartment when Rage shows up. The End. 

Sadly, I haven't read much New Warriors. I couldn't find a listing for Dave Bealer or Pulitzr Patty, but they seem like familiar supporting characters, & Pulitzer Patty seems like a name Steve Ditko would make up. Have they appeared before anywhere? Having said all that, here's some placement suggestions anyway: 

Speedball/Robbie Baldwin 
NW 34 
*M/CP 122/3 
MW@ 3 

Rage/Elvin Daryl Halliday 
NW 34 
*M/CP 122/3 
NW@ 3 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

Last edited by Col_Fury on 26 Oct 2005 02:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 01:32 am    
By DCW3

Quote: 
>>>
Sadly, I haven't read much New Warriors. I couldn't find a listing for Dave Bealer or Pulitzr Patty, but they seem like familiar supporting characters, & Pulitzer Patty seems like a name Steve Ditko would make up. Have they appeared before anywhere? 
<<<

According to her Appendix profile, Patty previously appeared in M/SH3 1/5.

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 03:32 pm 
By SeanCurtin

NW 32-34 continue directly into NW@ 3. This would have to take place either before or after that story arc. 

-Sean

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Thread 50

Posted: 23 Sep 2005 01:31 am    Post subject: M/CP 117-122: Wolverine/Venom
By Col_Fury

M/CP 117: Wolverine/Venom 
Claws & Webs pt 1 
Dream a Little Dream of Me 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Sam Kieth 
Published: December 1992 

Appearances: Wolverine, Charles Xavier, Nightmare, Venom(Eddie Brock). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-4: Wolverine dreams of being eaten by birds. 
Pg5: Logan wakes up in his room at the X-Mansion, Professor X is with him. He explains that Logan hasnt been dreaming for the past week, Nightmare has been pulling him into a separate astral plane. He agrees to help Logan get there on his own & give him a semblance of solidity, but wont be able to help once hes there. 
Pg6-8: Wolverine is in a dream jungle, Nightmare is impressed that he made it on his own. Nightmare has been pulling Wolverine into this astral plane because his mind holds the potential key I have been looking for such a long time. But theres a surprise Venom! 

M/CP 118: Wolverine/Venom 
Claws & Webs pt 2 
Dreams are Made of This 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Sam Kieth 
Published: December 1992 

Appearances: Wolverine, Charles Xavier, Nightmare, Venom(Eddie Brock). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-3: Wolverine & Venom are fighting, then Wolverine gives himself a recap of last issue.(No FlashBacks, just thought balloons) We see Professor X in the real world helping Wolverine by giving him a solid form in this astral plane. A woman screams, Venom runs off, Wolverine follows. 
Pg4-6: Venom is protecting the woman from lions & tigers. Wolverine jumps in, attacks a tiger, mentions that the woman looks like Mariko & says Thats a wound too fresh to play around with! 
Pg7-8: The woman runs off, so Venom webs Wolverins to a tree & beats the crud out of him. 

M/CP 119: Wolverine/Venom 
Claws & Webs pt 3 
Dreams Cant Kill You, but They Sure Can Try! 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Sam Kieth 
Published: January 1993 

Appearances: Wolverine, Charles Xavier-BTS, Nightmare, Venom(Eddie Brock). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-3: Wolverine is impaled on the tree from last issue. As he tries to cut himself free, Nightmare taunts him. 
Pg4-8: Wolverine frees himself, & we see Venom running with the woman over his shoulder. He runs into Wolverine. They fight and fall into a river, tangled in a fishing net. Wolverine frees them, but they fall over a waterfall. 

M/CP 120: Wolverine/Venom 
Claws & Webs pt 4 
Dreaming with the Enemy 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Sam Kieth 
Published: January 1993 

Appearances: Wolverine, Charles Xavier-BTS, Nightmare, Venom(Eddie Brock). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-8: At the bottom of the waterfall from last issue, Wolverine lights a cigar while Venom is passed out, his suit is sloughing off of him. Alligators try to eat Venom, but Wolverine saves him. Venom wakes up & they decide to work together, then Wolverine guts Venom to teach him a lesson.(or settle the score, your choice) They hear the woman scream, so they go off towards Nightmares mountain. 

M/CP 121: Wolverine/Venom 
Claws & Webs pt 5 
Dream Scars 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Sam Kieth 
Published: February 1993 

Appearances: Wolverine, Charles Xavier-BTS, Nightmare, Venom(Eddie Brock). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-3: Wolverine & Venom fight a big yellow monster while Nightmare watches. After they defeat it, it turns back into the woman that looked like Mariko. 
Pg4: Venom throws Wolverine to the side, because to him, the woman looks like Spider-Man. Wolverine tells Venom that its not real. 
Pg5: It fades away, Venom asks Wolverine how he knew. Wolverine says Nightmare chose the wrong memory to bring up. The wound ran deeply & is still too fresh. Nightmare taunts them some more. 
Pg6-8: Wolverine & Venom climb up a mountain of Nightmares creatures to get to Nightmare. When they reach him, Wolverine impale Nightmare with his claws. Nightmare laughs & says the threads of reality will begin to unwind! You, Wolverine, will be my path to your dimension. You were my pawn all along! 

M/CP 122: Wolverine/Venom 
Claws & Webs pt 6 
Nightmares End 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Sam Kieth 
Published: February 1993 

Appearances: Wolverine, Charles Xavier, Nightmare, Venom(Eddie Brock). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-6: Nightmare explains his plan: Use Wolverine as a link to Professor X to use his telepathy to take over the real world. Venom was just used to goad Wolverine. This astral plane is all part of Nightmare himself, so the woman, monsters, & environment were all Nightmare taking different forms. 
Pg7: Now that he knows what the scheme is, Wolverine impales Nightmares head, sending dream feedback through Nightmare. 
Pg8: Wolverine explains to Venom what happened & that Professor X knew what Nightmare was planning all along. Logan wakes up next to Professor X, who asks if he could scan Logans brain to see if hes all right. Logan just wants some real sleep. 

M/CP 117 & 118 are already listed, so here we go: 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
AWC 88 
M/CP 117 
M/CP 118 
*M/CP 119 
*M/CP 120 
*M/CP 121 
*M/CP 122 
X 12 

Brock, Eddie 
DHAWK 14 
M/CP 117 
M/CP 118 
*M/CP 119 
*M/CP 120 
*M/CP 121 
*M/CP 122 
ASM 362 

Venom 
DHAWK 14 
M/CP 117 
M/CP 118 
*M/CP 119 
*M/CP 120 
*M/CP 121 
*M/CP 122 
ASM 362 

Professor X/Charles Francis Xavier 
UX 293 
M/CP 117 
M/CP 118 
*M/CP 119-BTS 
*M/CP 120-BTS 
*M/CP 121-BTS 
*M/CP 122 
X 12 

Nightmare/Edvard Haberdash 
GR3 30 
M/CP 117 
M/CP 118 
*M/CP 119 
*M/CP 120 
*M/CP 121 
*M/CP 122 
T 451/2 

There it is, folks. Up next: Black Panther vol. 4, #1-6. Heaven help us all.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 25 Sep 2005 01:46 am    Post subject: M/CP 123/4: Master Man
By Col_Fury

M/CP 123/4: Master Man 
"the Doomed Man" 
W:Scott Kolins 
D:Scott Kolins 
Published: March 1993 

Appearances: 
"William Lohmer"(Master Man?), a nurse, hospital staff. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-7: A hospital in lower east side Berlin, Germany; A nurse writes in her diary about a dream she had about a patient in the hospital, who she thinks is Master Man. We're shown her dream, which is her fantasy about the life & times of Master Man, and shouldn't be considered FlashBacks.(People change into other people, faces turn demonic, landscapes change, etc. It's all dreamy... & besides, it's her dream, not his) 
pg8: The patient dies, she mentions in the diary that she was the only one who knew who he was, but she doesn't say how she knew. She writes in her diary: "Please rest in peace, William Lohmer." 

References: 
Berlin Germany was where N 12 took place, where the Master Man was electrocuted. It seems logical that he would end up in a hospital in Berlin. However, the nurse spelled the guy's name wrong.(Wilhelm/William) Perhaps she just thought he was Master Man? 
The FlashBack in C2 52 shows Master Man recapping what happened to him after N 12, but he doesn't mention dying in a hospital... which would make it difficult for him to be chilling out in Cable's house if he had died. Or, he could have faked his death in the hospital to get out of there, and just didn't feel like mentioning that part to Cable. Cable did mention however, that he thought Master Man was dead. 
That said, it's obvious that the author intended this to be Master Man, not a case of mistaken identity. 

Master Man/Wilhelm Lohmer 
N 12 
C2 52-FB 
*M/CP 123/4 
C2 51 
C2 52
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2005 04:11 am    
By Enda80

"Regarding the "Master Man" who died in Marvel Comics Presents #123, I vaguely recall that there was a CABLE letters page (after #52) in which a reader asked about MM's apparent death. I think it was suggested that the nurse in that story, the only person who "recognized" the old man as the former Master Man, had perhaps made a mistake. Maybe it was some other aged former Nazi super-villain who died in that story and was misidentified by the nurse? This would make it possible for the real Wilhelm Lohmer to still be alive for the later storyline in which he sacrificed his life for Cable. " 

pace Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 25 Sep 2005 12:52 pm    Post subject: Spellbinders 1-6
By shandrakor

Well, since I've finally weaned myself off another 4-month binge on World of Warcraft, here's the Spellbinders analysis I promised. Let's see if I can't get a start on those Subby TTA stories before school starts next week. 

~Darien 

----- 

Conclusions: 

Its an entirely self-contained mini with no references to the greater MU, which means no muss, no fuss with placement. 

Regarding calendar placement: 

* Takes place during the school year (September to June) 
* Takes place during NFL football season (September to December). The football game is on a Saturday, so should have been a college game, not NFL, but they play about the same seasons. 
* Characters dress like its warm outside 
* Trees are green, appear to be drawn as leafy, not evergreens 
* Calendar on SPELLBINDERS 2 (18p6, 19p1) shows that the party halfway through the series takes place in a month with 30 days. As a personal aside, that is the strangest calendar art Ive ever seen - the leftmost column is a Thursday, and Kim starts checking off the days 2 days before the month even starts. 

My suggestion for placement is to set the party on the first Saturday in September. That fits with the calendar art and a long summer would explain the dress and trees. Additionally, if John Hathorne High starts in mid-to-late August, then Kim only missed a week or two of school. This could explain the history teachers frustration with her always being late - she's not a new girl mid-year, more just a girl who couldnt be bothered to show up for the first week of classes. It also fits with Kris Cabot not realizing thered be a football game, since its likely to be the first game of the season. 

----- 

SPELLBINDERS #1 (1-9) 
One day. 5 minutes after midnight. Knox and Foley attempt a summoning spell to call the fulcrum. The spell backfires, and Knox is transmuted into a swarm of lizards. Kim, napping in the moving truck, dreams Knoxs death. That morning, Paul, Renata and Mason discuss Knoxs death, while Kim moves into her new house. Chad drops by Kims house to introduce himself, and warns her to keep her head down and not hang out with the wicks. 
Characters: 
David Knox 
Foley 
Kim Vesco 
Mrs. Vesco 
Mr. Vesco 
Paul 
Renata Lowell 
Mason Kaleema 
Chad Barrow 

SPELLBINDERS #1 (10-23) 
Tomorrow from SPELLBINDERS 1 (1-9). At school, Kim is attacked by an air elemental, and saved by Mink and Liza Beth. Liza Beth covers the attack to the principal by claiming it was a fight, but all the students appear to be aware of the elemental and take such things in stride. At lunch, Kim pisses off Mason by claiming not to know anything about magic, and gets invited to a no-wicks-allowed party on Saturday by Kris. That afternoon, Knoxs ghost appears and orders Kim to make the others into a seven, but she is immediately attacked magically again, and apparently killed. 
Characters: 
Mink 
Liza Beth 
Paul 
Renata Lowell 
Mason Kaleema 
Foley 
Kim Vesco 
Kris Cabot 
Mrs. Vesco 
Mr. Vesco 
Chad Barrow 
David Knox 

----- 

SPELLBINDERS #2 (1-5) 
Immediately following SPELLBINDERS 1 (10-23). Kim finds herself in ghost form, surrounded by other ghosts, many of which seem to revere her. Sallys ghost points out that her body isnt dead and suggests that shes just spirit walking. Kim commands the ghosts away, just as Sally warns her to avoid the Pillar of Smoke. Kim returns to her body where her parents are fretting over her, and claims she just fell and hit her head. 
Characters: 
Kim Vesco 
Mrs. Vesco 
David Knox 
Sally Shearman 
Mr. Vesco 

SPELLBINDERS #2 (6-18) 
The morning after SPELLBINDERS 2 (1-5). Over breakfast, Pauls coven discusses the idea of merging with Foleys. Mason is very against the idea. Kim is late for school again, having apparently been at the hospital for a checkup. During science class, Kim presses Foley for an explanation, and learns about the magical bloodlines in the town. Foleys explanation is interrupted by the science lab bursting into flame. Everyone but Kim gets out safely, who has to rescue herself by putting out the fire with a mixture of ammonium salts and baking soda. Chad asks Kim to Kris party as a date. Kim reveals that shes adopted, and places the party on her calendar for Saturday, the first of a month with 30 days. 
Characters: 
Paul 
Renata Lowell 
Mason Kaleema 
Kim Vesco 
Kris Cabot 
Foley 
Mink 
Liza Beth 
Chad Barrow 
Mrs. Vesco 
Mr. Vesco 

Note: Its very odd that Kim is late to school after having been taken in for a checkup the previous day. It is possible to place a gap prior to her attack in #1, having the attack occur first thing in the morning, but difficult since she was wearing the same shirt in the attack scene as she wore to school previously, and a different shirt at school in the morning. My best explanation is that her unexplained unconsciousness lead the doctors to keep her for observation overnight. 

SPELLBINDERS #2 (19-22) 
Saturday, at least two days after, but less than a week after, SPELLBINDERS 2 (6-18). Kim arrives at Chads house and meets his crazy mother, also learning that Sally is dead and has a connection to Chad. They leave for the party, watched by Foley and Liza Beth, who are weaving a protection over Kim in case shes attacked at the party with no wicks around to protect her. 
Characters: 
Kim Vesco 
Mrs. Barrow 
Chad Barrow 
Foley 
Liza Beth 
Kris Cabot 

----- 

SPELLBINDERS #3 (1-22) 
Later in the same evening as SPELLBINDERS #2 (19-22). Kim has known Chad for like 6 days. The guys are watching a pro football game, Patriots v Giants (though a Saturday game should be college, not NFL). Out at a park, Paul points out to Renata that even if Kim is warded, she could still be attacked by mundane means. Renata immediately rushes off towards the party, where the power has gone out, and one kid attacked with magical lightning. In the panic, a cloaked figure attacks Kim with a knife. Mason calls in Foleys coven as backup to make sure that Renata doesnt get hurt. At the house, Sallys ghost appears to Kim again, and shows her how to spirit walk deliberately. Kim scouts a path and knocks down the cloaked figure, which becomes a werewolf and continues chasing her. Faced with all 7 witches though, the werewolf changes again and escapes. The witches decide that Kim should go to the Pillar of Smoke and unlock her power, but she declines because of Sallys advice. When she gets home, though, all her stuff has been trashed, and she changes her mind, wanting whatever power is coming to her. Finally, the villain is revealed to be Chad. 
Characters: 
Kim Vesco 
Kris Cabot 
Sally Shearman 
Chad Barrow 
Paul 
Renata Lowell 
Mason Kaleema 
Foley 
Mink 
Liza Beth 
Mr. Vesco 
Mrs. Vesco 

----- 

SPELLBINDERS #4 (1-22) 
The morning after SPELLBINDERS 3 (1-22). Kim and both covens hike through the woods to the Pillar of Smoke. Chad follows, easily bypassing all the wards they set behind them. Chad kills the Pillars guardian and attacks them just as they realize that their opponent has been using their own magic powers against them. Foley and Kim escape, arriving at the Pillar just at sundown, but when Kim touches it, she doesnt gain any power. Chad absorbs power directly from the Pillar, then shatters it and consumes a large piece. He Travels away, arriving back in town sometime after dark. 
Characters: 
Kim Vesco 
Paul 
Renata Lowell 
Mason Kaleema 
Foley 
Mink 
Liza Beth 
Chad Barrow 

----- 

SPELLBINDERS #5-FB (8p2-8p3) 
One day last August from SPELLBINDERS 4 (9p6). After breaking up with Chad, Sallys powers are turned against her and she freezes to death. 
Characters: 
Sally Shearman 
Chad Barrow 

SPELLBINDERS #5 (1-22) 
Probably after midnight, the morning after SPELLBINDERS 4 (1-22). Banished by Chad to the Salem Witches homeworld, the witches are unable to get home, because the Thief has absorbed almost all the magic out of the world. Back on Earth, Chad begins mind controlling all the other witches and gathering them in the school, while Sallys ghost tells Kim that the foundation of the Pillar still stands. The original Thief on the witches world attacks, but they combine their powers long enough to Travel back to Earth. Right at dawn, the pillar reveals its foundation to Kim, and she finds the right sigil to unlock her powers, transporting herself and Foley to the land of the dead. In the school gym, Chad combines all the towns witches in order to bring Sally back to life, but is interrupted by the two covens. 
Characters: 
Paul 
Renata Lowell 
Mason Kaleema 
Mink 
Liza Beth 
Chad Barrow 
Foley 
Kim Vesco 
Sally Shearman 

----- 

SPELLBINDERS #6 (1-22) 
Immediately following SPELLBINDERS #5 (1-22). In the land of the dead, Kim learns that she is a Necromancer, and her job is to heal breaches like the one Chad created in resurrecting Sally. Back at the gym, Chad defeats the witches quickly again, but is rejected by the resurrected Sally, and decides to kill everyone. Kim and Foley arrive, and with everyone elses help, hold Chad off long enough for Kim to banish Sallys soul. Since Chad used his own soul as an anchor, he is also dragged off into the Underworld. Everybody picks themselves up, and Kim finds one of the lizards that got made out of Knox, promising to help him next. 
Characters: 
Foley 
Kim Vesco 
Paul 
Renata Lowell 
Mason Kaleema 
Mink 
Liza Beth 
Chad Barrow 
Sally Shearman

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 09:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
My suggestion for placement is to set the party on the first Saturday in September. That fits with the calendar art and a long summer would explain the dress and trees. Additionally, if John Hathorne High starts in mid-to-late August, then Kim only missed a week or two of school. This could explain the history teachers frustration with her always being late - she's not a new girl mid-year, more just a girl who couldnt be bothered to show up for the first week of classes. It also fits with Kris Cabot not realizing thered be a football game, since its likely to be the first game of the season.  
<<<

Makes sense to me. 


shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
The guys are watching a pro football game, Patriots v Giants (though a Saturday game should be college, not NFL).  
<<<

Well, maybe pro-football Saturdays are common in the MU. 

Thanks for the analysis, Darien.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 53

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 01:29 pm    Post subject: TTA 70-74 (Namor stories)
By shandrakor

Here's the first batch of early Namor. Between FF 4 and TTA 70, he's just got guest appearances, so TTA's where I'll be starting. Looking over his other early stuff, it looks like "Saga of the Sub-Mariner" needs a massive overhaul, but I'm not feeling that ambitious today. You might see another 5-pack of TTA sometime this afternoon though. 

~Darien 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #70-FB (6p4-7p3) 
One day. Hundreds, possibly thousands of years ago. Neptune leaves Atlantis to begin the Sleep of Ages, and declares that anyone who carries his trident will be King. He hides the trident away, waiting for a day when a pretender seizes the throne and the true ruler must find it. 
Characters: 
NEPTUNE [OLYMPIAN] 

TALES TO ASTONISH #70 (1-12) 
One day, shortly after DD 7. Namor is returning to Atlantis, intending to stomp out Warlord Krangs rebellion. Dorma reveals that Krang has already fully seized power and offers to help him regain the throne. Namor spurns her advances, so she calls the guards down on him, hoping that when he realizes he has lost, hell be willing to settle for her. Krang throws the captured Namor into the dungeon. Dorma helps Namor escape, who heads for the Cave of Shadows to begin a quest for Neptunes trident. Krang, aware of Namors escape, has him followed and sealed into the cave with a giant squid. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #71 (1-5) 
Immediately following TTA 70 (1-12). Namor uses Neptunes shell to kill the giant squid. Neptune himself appears briefly, congratulates Namor, and directs him to the Forbidden Deeps. Namor digs free of the cavern, defeats Krangs guards, and heads on his way. Meanwhile, Krang continues to observe him, and declares that once Namor is dead, Dorma will be forced to marry him. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
NEPTUNE [OLYMPIAN] 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 

TALES TO ASTONISH #71 (6-12) 
One day, sometime after TTA 71 (1-5). On the very outskirts of Atlantis, Namor meets Vashti, an elder of Atlantis who is still loyal. Elsewhere, Dorma continues to pine, while the people of Atlantis, taxed far beyond their means, lose faith in Krang. Namor arrives at the Forbidden Deeps, and faces off against the monstrous Seaweed Man. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
VASHTI [ATLANTEAN] 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
SEAWEED MAN 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #72 (1-10) 
Immediately following TTA 71 (6-12). Namor forms a whirlpool around the Seaweed Man, defeating him long enough to locate an iron door set in the sea floor. Opening it, he hears the voice of Neptune, and sees a fish carrying a diamond. He realizes that his next stop is in the fabled Diamonds of Doom. Frustrated that Namor has survived another challenge, Krang offers to set Dorma free if she will marry him. When she refuses, he seals her in a plasti-cage, and Zantor the Merciless banishes her to the land of the Faceless Ones. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
SEAWEED MAN 
**NEPTUNE [OLYMPIAN] 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
ZANTOR 

TALES TO ASTONISH #72 (11-12) 
One day, sometime after TTA 72 (1-10). Namor learns from a school of fish of Dormas banishment, but knows he must finish his quest. He arrives at the Diamonds of Doom, and their light begins to sap his strength away. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 

Note: Again Im a little lost on the definition of BTS. Neptune is credited BTS in this issue, but we hear his voice coming from the fish. Isnt Neptune speaking, even from off-camera enough to give him a full appearance? Even if not, its hinted next issue that the fish may actually BE Neptune in disguise: TTA 73 (6p4) The voice of father Neptune! It seems to be coming from the eels themselves! Who knows what form the ruler of the deeps may assume?!! 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #73 (1-12) 
Immediately following TTA 72 (11-12). Namor is confronted by the Demon of the Diamonds, but calls on the strength of the creatures of his undersea kingdom and defeats the Demon with the help of a few electric eels. Neptune speaks and declares that Namor must find the site of his final test alone. Reminded that Dorma is captured by the Faceless Ones, Namor decides to abandon his quest and go to rescue her. Back in Atlantis, the banishment of Dorma is the last straw, and the citizens revolt, storming the palace. Many die or are driven away, but some manage to reach the throne room. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
DEMON OF THE DIAMONDS 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
**NEPTUNE [OLYMPIAN] 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #74 (1-12) 
The same day as TTA 73 (1-12). Namor reaches the land of the Faceless Ones, and fights his way through them towards Dorma. Krang locks himself away behind a mobile defenso-wall and sets a robo-tank on the rebelling citizens. The people wonder why Namor isnt helping, and fear that he must be dead, but Vashti reassures them that he saw Namor personally not long ago. Vashti leaves on a seahorse to track down Namor, but is dragged by a magna-beam down into the land of the Faceless Ones. Namor finally reaches Dorma as her plasti-cage breaks, and seeing her injured, realizes that he does love her after all. He vows to fight the Faceless Ones until his last breath. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
VASHTI [ATLANTEAN] 

----- 

Corrected chronologies: 

NEPTUNE [OLYMPIAN] 
TTA 70-FB 
TTA 71 
**TTA 72 
**TTA 73 
TTA 75 
...

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 08:34 pm    
By Enda80

NEPTUNE [OLYMPIAN] 
TTA 70-FB 
TTA 71 
TTA 72-BTS 
TTA 75 
SUB-M 17 
SUB-M 68 
M/FAN 16/2 
A 282 
A 285 
N@ 2 
N 37 

Neptune's chronology is a little skimpy. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/neptunep.htm 

Should his appearance in the first Subbie (not the Sub-Mariner) be considered canon? 

(Spectacular Spider-Man Annual#9/5) <2000 years ago> - Neptune encountered a cult of Atlanteans who worshipped the Elder God Set, and destroyed them. He then came to dwell in the undersea city of Atlantis, and became their patron deity. 

By the way, Namor I#36-38 establishes Neptune worship as reaching back to circa 5800 BCE. This may serve as the earliest reference to the Olympian gods, unless one counts the reference to "Poseidonis" in Conan the Adventurer#10-14, or in the text article in Conan Saga#95. 

One source indicates that the Olympians did not exist in 10,000 BCE. 
http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timelineRoma.html 

Conan encounters the descendants of Alexander the Great's time-travelling 
scouting party. They live in the secluded Valley of Isklander, with virtually 
no contact with the outside world. 

At one point, one of them invokes Zeus, to which Conan replied "I have never 
heard of a god or demon named "Zoos"". [Conan the Barbarian I#79-81]

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 08:52 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Neptune's chronology is a little skimpy. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/neptunep.htm 
<<< 


We don't use other web sites as evidence. 


watching: lsu v. tennessee

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 08:56 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
Neptune is credited BTS in this issue, but we hear his voice coming from the fish. Isnt Neptune speaking, even from off-camera enough to give him a full appearance? Even if not, its hinted next issue that the fish may actually BE Neptune in disguise: TTA 73 (6p4) The voice of father Neptune! It seems to be coming from the eels themselves! Who knows what form the ruler of the deeps may assume?!!  
<<<

That sounds like a full appearance to me, Darien. Thanks for the analysis!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2005 12:24 am    
By shandrakor

Administrator wrote: 
We don't use other web sites as evidence. 


Well, as much fun as I'm sure we all have yelling at Enda over and over to stop just throwing up links to marvunapp, I went ahead and looked over the page. Most of it's crap BTS appearances, and it also cites "Greek-Roman Myth" which I find just absurd, but there's a couple useful citations that we're missing. 

PPTSSM@ 9/5: Neptune prior to, and at the start of, his reign as King of Atlantis. 

SUB-M 17-FB (5p2): We have 17 in as a full appearance, which is not correct. This one's a little more complicated - 3 images surrounding a central narration character. 

Top Left - Neptune as ruler of Atlantis, leading their forces into battle. 
Top Right - Neptune forging the golden trident, "on the original site of Atlantis." I believe this is after PPTSSM@ 9/5, as he used a silver trident there to destroy Set's altar. 
Bottom - Neptune giving orders about the trident prior to leaving Atlantis - would be right before TTA 70-FB. 

Luckily, despite being three different -FBs, they all slip into the same slot in the chronology. Gotta love those guys with sparse appearances. 

Venus 12/2 - Neptune helps Venus deal with some pissed off fishmen. Looking at this from a policy of "It's canon unless it doesn't fit," I think it's still out. The previous story in the book features a Thor and Loki which are at least artistically different from the modern MU characters. Also, Neptune withdrew from the world centuries ago, but this story has him readily available and willing to take direct action. 

M-T3 7-FB (4) - The art leaves me a little unsure about this one. If the huge, red face with glowing red eyes and fangs is supposed to be Neptune, then this is in as a flashback. If that face is something else, then Neptune probably still deserves a -BTS on this as Namor's motivation for showing up in the book. I'll call it a -FB unless somebody can give me a better explanation for what the crap that art is supposed to be. 

Finally, he's likely to be in, or BTS the boardroom scene in the latest Herc mini, but no sense in quibbling about that until after the analysis of that book is done. 

So, adding those into the mix, we get this: 

NEPTUNE [OLYMPIAN] 
**PPTSSM@ 9/5 
**SUB-M 17-FB 
**{TTA 70-FB} 
TTA 71 
**TTA 72 
**TTA 73 
TTA 75 
** 
SUB-M 68 
M/FAN 16/2 
A 282 
A 285 
N@ 2 
N 37 
**M-T3 7-FB

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2005 08:00 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
Well, as much fun as I'm sure we all have yelling at Enda over and over 
<<<

Who's yelling? 


shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
to stop just throwing up links to marvunapp, 
<<<

I don't have a problem with links to the Appendix. I have a problem with finding appearances that are listed at other sites, and saying, "Aha. We need to add those appearances here." 

Get appearances from the books. Not from other web sites. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2005 11:05 am    
By shandrakor

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Who's yelling? 
<<<

Well, nobody, since we're all sitting at keyboards, not speaking. But I really hope you at least get what I meant. 90% of Enda's posts seem to be a little bit of info, followed by a bunch of quotes from the appendix. That, then, is usually followed immediately by a post from you asking him to quit doing that. 

It's a repetitive cycle that, as a non-participant, bores me to tears by now. I wish that either Enda would quit it and do the legwork, or that you'd stop expecting him to. Because if he doesn't get what you're asking for by now, it's pretty clear that he won't. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I don't have a problem with links to the Appendix. I have a problem with finding appearances that are listed at other sites, and saying, "Aha. We need to add those appearances here." 

Get appearances from the books. Not from other web sites. 
<<<

I disagree, to a point. There's absolutely no reason why the appendix can't be used to look for appearances that we're missing. But no, of course the appendix having a citation is insufficient to add the appearance on our side. The appearances come from the books, but the idea to look in that particular book can come from the appendix. 

Yes, I'd much rather that Enda have spent his own three hours running down the descrepancies to correct the Neptune chronology last night, but I think he's made it pretty clear that he's not going to bother doing so, and just doing it myself seemed easier.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2005 12:26 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks for the clarification, but.... I don't think that disagrees with what I said. I've never said the Appendix can't be used to point us in the right direction. I've said many times before that the Appendix is a valuable resource--and can be used that way--but not a source. 


watching: live from

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2005 01:45 pm    
By shandrakor

Absolutely. I think it was the phrasing "Get appearances from the books. Not from other web sites." that bothered me. 

A better way to put it is "Feel free to get appearances from other sites, but confirm them in the books before you use them to make a point."

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2005 03:50 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

If anyone wants to post saying, "Bob's website says blah blah bliddy blah, but I don't have the book in question, can someone check to verify this," that's fine. Great. No problem. If someone posts saying, "Bob's website says yadda yadda, so we need to change the listings here," they'll get a caution from a Moderator, directing them to the books themselves. 

In this particular instance, we were asked to make a change (or a change was suggested), based on information at a website. We said we don't do that; we need information from the books themselves. It's pretty simple. 

The more wordy and precise explanation that you suggest could have been used, but keep in mind, it was a response to a post by Enda80, and as you yourself pointed out, it's been explained to Enda80 more than once. 

Enda80 knows the rule, but in fairness to him, he posts obscure information to many websites and forums, and I suppose sometimes it can be difficult to keep everyone's individual "rules" separate and straight, so my response was serving only to "remind" him of our policy. Not to call him on the table, but to point out that if he expects his suggestion to *ever* make its way into our listings, he--or someone--will need to check the books themselves. That his post, as it stands, will not make it into our listings here. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Thread 54

Posted: 26 Sep 2005 09:45 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for DD2 #71-75:
By Kevin W.
Director

Chronology Review for Daredevil #71-75 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Artwork by Alex Maleev 

And now its time to review the latest story arc in Daredevil. The way the solicitations read, this arc was supposed to explain what happened to Matt Murdock during the whole 1 year that passed in the pages of DD2 56. Thus, I thought the entire story arc was set in the past. But there is a framing sequence set in the present day in this arc, and the flashbacks go back to different points over the last few months. Lets see if I can explain this 

Daredevil Vol. 2 #71 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Matt Murdock-BTS. New characters: Reverend Bob Cumeo, Archie Meyers, Jennifer Norton, Doris, Lawrence, Lynn. In flashback: Matt Murdock, Bullet, New Character: Mikey J. 

Synopsis: All events in the present day occur over the course of one evening. A pamphlet has been passed around to the residents of Hells Kitchen, urging discussion about what effect Daredevil being the new Kingpin is having on peoples lives. So thats where are storyline picks up: in the basement of a Catholic church where people have gathered to discuss Daredevil. 

The Reverend starts up the conversation, asking if anyone has any stories to tell about how Daredevil has affected their lives. Eventually, the conversation turns to a blond haired lady, (whos name we never learned), and who tells us the following story: 

Flashback: She was there on the night that Daredevil declared himself the new Kingpin. She was in the bar, getting stoned out of her mind and being a bit of a slut. But she remembers Daredevils words, and those words made her start to think about her life. 

Flashback: A week later, give or take shes over at her boyfriends house, (his name is Mikey J., really, its just the guy who got her hooked on drugs), when Mikey J. and some others hold a conference with a C-list supervillian named Bullet, (whom Daredevil has fought before, years ago). These thugs are planning on having Bullet become the New Kingpin of Hells Kitchen, and say how they plan on going over to Matt Murdocks house and killing him. Realizing that Matts trying to help people, she picks up a gun, (which was left lying around) and starts to aim it at the thugs. Just then, Daredevil bursts in through the window and fights all the thugs, knocking out all of them. Daredevil then tells the blond lady to change her life, and she says she will. 

And that brings us back to the present, with her telling the others that she thinks Daredevil is a good man. 

References: The pamphlet being distributed around Hells Kitchen says: The Devil Among Us: A conversation support group for the people of Hells Kitchen to discuss Daredevil and his effects on your daily life. Join Reverend Bob Cumeo as he leads the discussion. Participation urged but not required. Where: St. Marys Church, Basement room 2, 7:30 pm, Wednesday nights. So all present day events in these issues happen on a Wednesday night. 

Theres two flashback sequences in this issue, one of which weve already seen before now: its the Matt declares himself the new Kingpin scene which we saw in DD#50 and DD#65, (wherein we learned that the Punisher was at the scene as well). This flashback here adds no new material, it just shows the blond haired lady is in the bar, listening to Daredevil as he gives his speech. This flashback runs from pg. 4, panel 6, (out of 6), to pg. 6, panel 4, (out of 4). As she narrates exactly what DD said, (its the exact same text as we saw in DD2 50, and DD2 65), we do pop back to the present day on pg. 5, panel 4, (out of 4), and on pg. 6, panel 2, (out of 4). The present day panels just show her narrating exactly what DD said. 


The second flashback in this issue is on pgs. 9-20, (all panels). It details exactly what I explained above. The blond haired lady is over at Mikey J. house when Bullet and the other thugs get together to hold a meeting on how to become the New Kingpins, when DD appears and kicks all of their butts. 

Daredevil Vol. 2 #72 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Matt Murdock-BTS. Reverend Bob Cumeo, Archie Meyers, Jennifer Norton, Doris, Lawrence, Lynn In flashback: Matt Murdock, Archie Meyers, New Characters: Don Meyers, Gregor 

Synopsis: Continues right from where we left off last issue: 

Pgs. 1-4, (panel 7, out of 8): The conversation continues. One guy, (whom we later learn is named Lawrence) brags that he knows secrets about Daredevil, but then refuses to say what those secrets are. Reverend Cumeo asks if anyone else has any experiences with Daredevil they care to share. A fellow by the name of Archie Meyers doesnt speak up, but we do flashback to his story in his head. 

The Flashback is spread over a few days, so Ill break it down by the pages. 

Pg. 4, (panel 8 out of 8)-18: Archie Meyers father is a fellow by the name of Don Meyers, who is known as Don the Bomb in the underworld. In the flashback, Archie visits his father in prison, and Don gets mad that his visitation is being wasted on seeing his son. Don eventually asks Archie to do him a favor, and Archie, (who is anxious to earn his fathers love) says hell do it. Don tells him to go to the back entrance of Josies Bar and meet a man named Gregor, and that Gregor will have an assignment for him to do. 

Archie goes home to his wife and kid. His wife asks if he went and visited his father in prison today, (she had urged against it). He said he did go visit him, and that hes going out later on tonight. She figures out Archies performing an errand for his father, and tells him to go to hell. 

Later on that night, Archie walks to Josies Bar, knocks on the back door and meets up with Gregor. Gregors a thug who says he heard word that Archie would be coming by. He gives Archie a bomb in a box and tells Archie to go put the bomb underneath Foggy Nelsons car. Don the Bombs plan is to gain notoriety in prison by killing the best friend of Daredevil. 

Archie takes the bomb, but is torn with guilt. He goes home and looks at his son, (who is asleep in bed) and talks to his wife. He talks about how his father Don abused him as a child, and he wonders how anyone can do such a thing to a kid. His wife warns him that no matter how hard he tries, he will never get his fathers love, (because his father is a cold hard criminal). 

Pg. 19: This is probably the next day after pgs. 8-18, or could be several days later: Archie drives by Matt Murdocks law office, to see Matt Murdock standing outside talking to some other people in business suits. He glances back at the bomb in his back seat, and drives away. 

Pg. 20-22: Probably that night, or could be a few nights later: Gregor and another thug walk back into the back of Josies Bar, (which is officially closed, and has been since DD2 50). As they walk inside the building, the place explodes, killing them. In a nearby alley, we see Archie watching the flames, and getting his arm sliced by a piece of flying glass. Archie set the bomb that was intended to kill Foggy Nelson, instead using it on Gregor. 

References: Josies Bar is of course the location from DD2 50, in which Kingpin was holding a meeting, (a meeting which Daredevil busted up, and declared himself the new Kingpin). 

Pg. 8: When Don tells Archie to go to meet Gregor, he describes him as a Russian guy. Guys face got a gash in it. Some ninja girl worked for the Kingpin tried to cut off his face. This would probably be a reference to Elektra or possibly to Typhoid Mary, (probably an unseen event). 

Pg. 15: When Archie meets Gregor, Gregor tells him that his father is a somewhat famous criminal. Gregor says: Your dadyears backyour dad blew up Murdocks houseKingpin himself hired him to do it. But Don the Bombs the one who went and did it. Awhile back, story goes, Kingpin finds out Murdock is this Daredevil beforeanyone else did. So Kingpin starts looking for ways to pick Murdock apart. 

I believe these are references to when Kingpin found out Matt Murdocks secret identity, (in the Born Again storyline from years agothough I cant say if Don the Bomb was shown during that storyline as I dont have those issues). 

Daredevil Vol. 2 #73 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Matt Murdock-BTS, Reverend Bob Cumeo, Archie Meyers, Jennifer Norton, Doris, Lawrence, Lynn. In flashback: Matt Murdock, Jennifer Norton, Doris 

Synopsis: Continues right where we left off last issue: 

The conversation continues, this time turning to another lady by the name of Jennifer Norton. She tells us that her husband is now in jail for a recent crime spree. It turns out her husband was some sort of super villian serial killer, and that she didnt know about his extracurricular activities. The Reverend asks if she had any clue about her husband being a serial killer. She says there was one incident. Her flashback is as follows: 

Pgs. 5-6: Flashback: According to Jennifer, this was a few months ago. One night, Jennifers husband was working in the basement, (or so she thought) and so she decided to go downstairs and give him some hot cocoa. When she got down in the basement though, she spied her husband sitting in a chair, with some sort of demonic baby, (or imp) on his shoulder, and they were talking to each other. 

Pgs. 7-9: Thats the end of what occurs in the flashback. She then says that her memories went blank, and that she woke up the next day, and didnt remember anything about that incident until after husband went to jail. 

Just then, another woman, (by the name of Doris) gets up and slaps Jennifer, calling her a liar. We learn that Doris was the last victim of Jennifers husband. Doris flashback is as follows: 

Pgs 10-18: Flashback: Doris is in a parking garage about to get in her car, when suddenly she is attacked from behind by a man in a mask, holding a knife. The man is about to stab her, when Daredevil appears and a fight ensues. Amazingly enough, the killer starts shooting mystical hell fire out of his eyes, and flees. Daredevil chases him, and eventually beats him into submission. Daredevil comes back over to check on Doris, who faints from the experience. 

Thats the end of the flashback. 

Pgs. 19-23: Doris says what she experienced was real, and that Jennifers attempt to blame her husbands actions on a demonic baby are lies, and that shes just excusing her husbands actions. 

Everyone starts talking at once and Reverend Cumeo starts to bring this meeting to a close, (feeling that things are getting a bit out of control). But just then, another lady, (whom we later learn is named Lynn), pulls out a piece of paper from her purse and asks Jennifer, Did it look anything like this? And we see on the piece of paper a sketch drawing of a demonic baby. Jennifer says yes, and this lady says that her daughter drew this picture, right before killing herself. 

And well get her story next issue. 

References: Pg. 19: Doris says that Jennifers husband later confessed to 34 of these crimes, (of killing women). Still, I dont think this is a supervillian weve ever seen before. We dont learn if Jennifers husband had a codename. He was just a guy in a Halloween mask, (it looks a bit like Spidermans mask), and who carried a knife around to hack up women. 

Pg. 23: The woman who held up the picture of the demon baby, (Lynn), says her daughter killed herself, (after drawing that picture), last week. So that puts the flashbacks that occur next issue as happening last week. 

Meanwhile, there is the question of just when Doriss flashback occurs. Daredevil appears in costume to combat Jennifers husband. Maybe this sequence is after Daredevil resumes wearing the costume in DD2 59? Were not given a frame of reference for when Doriss flashback occurred. Jennifers flashback, (of seeing her husband talking to the demonic baby) occurred, a few months ago. But Doris says she was the final victim, (right before Daredevil apprehended Jennifers husband), and that couldve happened rather recently, (after DD2 59). 


Daredevil Vol. 2 #74 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Reverend Bob Cumeo, Archie Meyers, Jennifer Norton, Doris, Lawrence, Lynn. In flashback: Matt Murdock, Milla Donovan, Foggy Nelson, Lynn, Jester-BTS 

Synopsis: The present day scenes continue right from where we left off last issue. 

Pg. 1-3: Flashback: This is a flashback to the wedding of Matt and Milla. It shows Matt and Milla exchanging vows and the judge declares them man and wife, (this was a civil wedding, not a religious one). Foggy Nelson and Millas friend Lynn are in attendance at the wedding. 

Pg. 4-6: Back to the present day. Millas friend is discussing the fact that she was in attendance at Millas wedding. The others at first dont believe her, saying that Matt Murdock isnt married, but she says it was a secret wedding. 

Pg. 7-11: Flashback: we see Milla and Lynn sitting around at lunch. Milla breaks the news that she is dating Matt Murdock, and plans on marrying him. Lynn asks if its true that Matt is Daredevil and that hes the new Kingpin, but Milla avoids those questions. 

Pg. 12-13: Cut back to the present day. The others ask what the hell all of this has to do with the drawing of the demonic baby, and she cuts ahead to that part. 

Pg. 14: In flashback, we see Milla and Lynn are at work, when her friend gets a phone call from her daughter. Her teenage daughter is in the middle of a hostage crisis at a bank that is being robbed by the Jester, (an old foe of Daredevil). The cell phone her daughter is on goes dead, and Lynn starts paniking. Milla calls up Matt and says, Matt? Get your uniform. 

Pg. 15-18, panels 1-3, (out of 7): Still in flashback, but later that night. Milla took Lynn home, and theyre sitting around waiting for word back from DD or from the police. In through the window comes Daredevil, carrying Lynns daughter, who is unconscious. Daredevil then leaves, saying hes still got some crimefighting to do. The daughter wakes up and goes to her room, without even telling her mother what happened. 

Pg. 18, panels 4-7, (out of 7): Cutting briefly back to the present. The others in the room ask what happened next. 

Pg. 19: Flashback: Lynn says that she went into her daughter's room later on, to check on her, only to find she had slit her wrists and poked out her own eyes. Before doing that, her daughter had drawn some sketches, all of which look like a demonic baby. 

Pg. 20-23: Cut back to the present day. Lynn asks the Reverend what all of this means, because she is at her wits end. Another man in the audience, (Lawrence, the one who 2 issues ago said he knew secrets about Daredevil, and who has been somewhat mocking of everyone elses stories) laughs at all of them. He says the Reverends religion is only a few centuries old, and that there are older, darker religions that she needs to turn to for answers. This man then goes on to say that Matt Murdock knows a thing or two about these older religions, and says that Matt is a ninja, who can hide himself in plain site. To prove it, he points out that Matt is sitting in on this conversation right now. Everyone turns to look at the guy in the corner, who hasnt really spoken up any. Its Matt Murdock. 

References: Pg. 9: Milla, (in flashback) tells her friend: Lynn, Im actually seeing him. I sleep over at his house. I have a drawer. Were involved. So that means they are sleeping together at this point in their relationship. So other miniseries that show Matt sleeping alone, (such as DD: Father) cant happen around the time of this flashback. 

Pg. 10: Milla, (in flashback) tells Lynn, Matt won a big case a year ago and the money is just coming in and hes going to put it into the city. The big case that is referenced as a year ago is the case Matt won back in DD2 26, (the start of Bendis run on the book). 

We dont actually see or hear the Jester in the flashback, but we are told by Lynn that hes robbing the bank and taking hostages while her daughter called her up on the phone, so that makes for a BTS appearance for the Jester. 

Also, since last issue they had a reference to Lynns daughter killing herself last week that puts those particular flashbacks in this issue as having happened, last week. Which means that even though Milla is separated, (and probably fully divorced) by this point, she still calls up Matt and tells him to put on his Daredevil costume to go and save her friends daughter. 

Pgs. 2 and 3: Matt doesnt have a goatee at his wedding! This contradicts what we were shown in the flashbacks in DD2 56, but maybe he shaved just for the wedding 

Daredevil Vol. 2 #75 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Reverend Bob Cumeo, Archie Meyers, Jennifer Norton, Doris, Lawrence, Lynn. In flashback: Daredevil, the Jester 

Synopsis: The present day scenes continue right from where we left off last issue. 

Pgs. 1-5: Matt starts to explain what hes doing here. He says hes been investigating a string of bizaare incidents, and he tracked this man Lawrence to this meeting tonight. Lawrence starts to get up and to flee, but Matt tells him to sit back down, (and he does so). Matt then explains how he started investigating these incidents: 

Pgs. 6-19: In flashback, we go back to the actual fight between the Jester and Daredevil in the bank, (as hinted at last issue). Daredevil starts kicking the Jesters butt, (which is what usually happens), but then the Jester comes back with renewed strength. The Jester is soon throwing Daredevil out the windows of the bank. Daredevil realizes that something is different about the Jester, and races back into fight him. Most of the hostages escape while the two of them battle, but the Jester grabs one of the hostages, (Lynns daughter) and pulls her back into the bank vault. Daredevil doesnt know what to do, (hes got a hostage now), when all of a sudden, Jester starts clutching his throat. He soon vomits up a demonic baby, which is what was giving him enhanced strength. Daredevil cant see the demon, (its apparently exists outside of his senses) and the demon starts to attack Lynn's daughter. Daredevil manages to scare off the demon, (even though he cant see it). Lynns daughter is traumatized by this event though, and Daredevil starts interrogating the Jester as to where he hooked up with this demon. 

Pgs. 20-36: Cuts back to the present. Matt goes on to explain that the Jester told him that a man had recently moved into Hells Kitchen, a man who was selling secrets of the Dark Arts. This man is Lawrence, whom we learn was a person in training to join the Hand, but was kicked out by that group. 

Lawrence gets up and flees. Matt tells all of them to stay here and wait. He goes and changes into his Daredevil costume and chases after Lawrence, chasing him all the way back to Lawrences shop. Lawrence starts to vomit up the demon himself, (we are told the demon found its way back to its master, the one who summoned it). Lawrence shoots himself in the head, killing himself and the demon. 

Matt changes back into civilian clothes and heads back to the church basement. He says its over, and that he simply wanted to give all of them closure, and to explain why he does the things he does. Having said his piece, he walks out the door of the church. There is an FBI surveillance van just across the street, and he goes over and knocks on the door. When the FBI guys inside open the door, Matt has slipped away. The FBI guy says, #^$%ing ninjas. And thats the end of the tale. 

References: 

Pg. 1: Matt says, Ive been working to piece together the events that have plagued my life and this city the last few weeks 

I take this to mean hes been investigating the demon baby and villains with supernatural powers that have been coming out of the woodwork the last few weeks. So this string of incidents seen in flashbacks, (at least the flashbacks for the last 3 issues) has been happening over the last few weeks. 

Im left wondering what came first: the fight with the Jester, or the fight with the Jennifer Nortons husband, (the serial killer). Both incidents are shown in flashback, both show Daredevil in costume, both involve demonic babies giving powers to supervillians. The fight with the Jester is referenced as last week. Matt says in this issue that he started his investigation into this demonic activity after the incident with the Jester, which would indicate maybe that the fight with Jennifers husband happened after that. But I think the incident with Jennifers husband happened earlier. Maybe after that encounter, Matt was left wondering, Where did that man get the ability to shoot hellfire out of his eyes? But he didnt really start to piece together everything till after he interrogated the Jester. 

Moving on, I at first thought that the man in the FBI van at the end of this issue was Agent Driver, (who died back in DD2 59). But Ive since come to believe this is a different FBI agent, who just looks similar. In other words, I dont believe this present day scene is set in the one year gap, (as I originally thought). 

Thats it for now. Next up for review is the latest story arc in Punisher MAX.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 29 Sep 2005 12:30 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 29 Sep 2005 06:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Kevin, thanks for the analysis. Let's see if I still have this straight after reorganizing the parts chronologically and giving it the calendar entry format... 

DAREDEVIL v2 #71  FB (9-20) 
One day, a week...give or take after DD2 50 (20-23). Mikey J. and other thugs hold a conference with a C-list super-villain named Bullet, who they want to be the new Kingpin of Hells Kitchen. They plan to Matt Murdock, but realizing that Matts trying to help people, Mikey J.s girlfriend aims a gun at the thugs. Just then, Daredevil bursts in and knocks out all the thugs. He tells the girlfriend to change her life, and she says she will. 

DAREDEVIL v2 #72  FB (4p8-18) 
One day, sometime after DD2 50 (20-23) and years after the Kingpin discovered DDs identity. Archie Meyers visits his father, Don the Bomb, in prison and agrees to do him a favor. As instructed, Archie goes to the closed Josies Bar and meets a thug named Gregor, who gives him a bomb to put underneath Foggy Nelsons car. Archie takes the bomb but is torn with guilt. He goes home and looks at his sleeping son and talks to his wife about how Don abused him as a child. His wife warns him that no matter how hard he tries, he will never get his fathers love. 

DAREDEVIL v2 #72  FB (19-22) 
Perhaps the day after SS2 72-FB (8-18). Archie drives by Matt Murdocks law office and sees Matt standing outside talking to other people in business suits. Archie glances back at the bomb in his back seat and drives away. Probably that night, Gregor and another thug walk back into the back of Josies Bar and are killed in an explosion. In a nearby alley, Archie watches the flames. 

DAREDEVIL v2 #74  FB (1-3) 
One day. Matt and Milla are wed in a secret civil ceremony, with Foggy and Millas friend in attendance. Matt is not sporting a goatee here; he may have shaved it for the wedding. The date is noted as May 4 in DD2 58, which is supposed to occur about four months after this. A subpoena in DD2 61 notes the wedding date as July 23, but this is probably the incorrect reference. 

DAREDEVIL v2 #74  FB (7-11) 
One day, a year after DD2 26-FB (8-22). At lunch, Milla tells her friend that she is living with Matt Murdock and plans on marrying him. Millas friend asks if its true that Matt is Daredevil and that hes the new Kingpin, but Milla avoids the questions. 

DAREDEVIL v2 #73  FB (5-6) 
One night, a few months before DD2 73. Jennifer Norton spies her husband talking to a demonic imp on his shoulder. 

DAREDEVIL v2 #73  FB (10-18) 
One day, a week before DD2 73. This flashback likely occurs after DD2 59. Doris is attacked from behind by a knife-wielding man in a mask, but Daredevil appears and a fight ensues. The attacker shoots mystical hellfire out of his eyes and flees. Daredevil chases him and beats him into submission. Daredevil checks on Doris, who faints from the experience. 

DAREDEVIL v2 #74  FB (14) 
One day. Milla and her friend are at work when the friend gets a cell phone call from her teenage daughter, who is in the middle of a hostage crisis at a bank that is being robbed by the Jester. The phone goes dead and Millas friend starts panicking. Milla calls up Matt and says, Matt? Get your uniform. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #75  FB (6-19) 
The same day as DD2 64-FB (14). Daredevil battles the Jester at the bank.. After getting his butt kicked, the Jester shows renewed strength and throws Daredevil out the bank windows. Daredevil realizes that something is different about the Jester and races back in to fight him. Most of the hostages escape while the two of them battle, but the Jester grabs Millas friends daughter and pulls her back into the bank vault. The Jester soon vomits up a demonic imp, the source of his enhanced strength. Daredevil cant see the demon, which starts to attack Millas friends daughter before Daredevil scares it away. Millas friends daughter is traumatized by this event and Daredevil interrogates the Jester about the demon. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #74  FB (15-18p3) 
That night, Milla takes her friend home, where they wait for word from DD or the police. In through the window comes Daredevil, carrying Millas friends unconscious daughter. Daredevil leaves, saying hes still got some crime-fighting to do. The daughter wakes up and goes to her room without telling her mother what happened. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #74  FB (19) 
The same night as DD2 74-FB (15-18). It is a week before DD2 73. Later, Millas friend goes to her daughters to check on her, only to find she slit her wrists and poked out her own eyes. Before doing that, her daughter had drawn some sketches, all of which look like a demonic imp. 

DAREDEVIL v2 #71 
One Wednesday night. Residents of Hells Kitchen gather in a church basement to discuss the effect Daredevil is having on people s lives as the new Kingpin. Mikey J.s girlfriend tells her tale. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #72 
The same night as DD2 71. The conversation about Daredevil continues, prompting Archie Meyers to remember his DD story.DAREDEVIL v2 #73 
The same night as DD2 72. It is a few months after DD2 73-FB (5-6) and a week after DD2 74-FB (19). The conversation continues as Jennifer Norton talks about her jailed husband and the demonic imp that once impelled him to attack fellow attendee Doris. Doris calls Jennifer a liar, but another woman, a friend of Milla Donovan, produces a picture of the imp drawn by her daughter before she committed suicide. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #74 
The same night as DD2 73. Millas friend talks about her daughters mysterious suicide and a man named Lawrence laughs. He says that old, dark religions provide the answers and that Matt Murdock knows about these religions. He says that Matt is a ninja who can hide himself in plain sight and is sitting in on this conversation. Everyone turns to look at the silent guy in the corner  its Murdock. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #75 
The same night as DD2 74. Matt explains that hes been investigating a string of bizarre incidents the last few weeks and tracked Lawrence to the meeting. Matt talks about the Jesters involvement with the demonic imp and identifies Lawrence as a Hand reject now in Hells Kitchen selling secrets of the Dark Arts. Lawrence flees and Matt changes into his Daredevil costume and chases after him. As Lawrence starts to vomit up the demon, he shoots himself in the head, killing himself and the demon. Matt changes back into civilian clothes and returns to the church basement. He says its over and that he simply wanted to give all of them closure, and to explain why he does the things he does. Having said his piece, he walks out the door of the church. There is an FBI surveillance van just across the street, and he goes over and knocks on the door. When the FBI guys inside open the door, Matt has slipped away. 


How does this look? The next step for me, of course, is to place all the segments on specific dates.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Sep 2005 12:18 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

It looks great, Paul! I'm sorry for not putting them in chronological order myself, but when a Bendis story of this sorts has so many flashbacks, and gives me such a headache, I figured it best to just do my analysis by explaining things as they are presented in the issues themselves, (and then leaving it up for discussion what the exact placement should be). 

Just a couple of things I noticed in your revisions: 

Quote: 
>>>
They plan to Matt Murdock, 
<<<

Should read, "They plan to kill Matt Murdock. 


Quote: 
>>>
Perhaps the day after SS2 72-FB (8-18). 
<<<

I'm pretty sure you mean DD2 72-FB. 

Also, I just read over my notes a final time, (just to be sure of things) and lo and behold: 


Quote: 
>>>
References: Pg. 9: Milla, (in flashback) tells her friend: Lynn, Im actually seeing him. I sleep over at his house. I have a drawer. Were involved. So that means they are sleeping together at this point in their relationship. So other miniseries that show Matt sleeping alone, (such as DD: Father) cant happen around the time of this flashback.  
<<<

LYNN! Her name is Lynn...man, that could've saved me some trouble if I had noticed the name sooner...*hangs head in shame* 

I'm editing my post to include her name among my analysis above, (including the "Appearances" section...If a character gets named, I try and list them in my "Appearances" section, in case they ever come back in a later issue). 

So if you want to edit your Calender entries, to stop referring to her as "Milla's friend", and "Milla's friend's daughter", that might help you...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Sep 2005 08:47 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the edits, Kevin. And yes, knowing Lynn's name helps a lot. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 55

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 11:02 am    Post subject: TTA 75-79 (Namor stories)
By shandrakor

TALES TO ASTONISH #75 (1-12) 
Immediately following TTA 74 (1-12). Namor faces off against the innumerable Faceless Ones, but they are halted by the appearance of Neptune. Neptune reveals that willingness to sacrifice his quest was the final test, and declares Namor worthy of the trident. Namor asks Vashti to carry the trident home, while he swims more quickly back with Dorma. In Atlantis, Namor fights past Krangs soldiers, then the robo-tank, then faces off against Krang directly, just as Vashti arrives to deliver the trident. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
VASHTI [ATLANTEAN] 
NEPTUNE [OLYMPIAN] 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #76 (1-5) 
Immediately following TTA 75 (1-12). Namor fights and defeats Krang, then uses the revitalization ray to restore Dorma to health. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
VASHTI [ATLANTEAN] 

TALES TO ASTONISH #76 (6-11p2) 
One day, sometime after TTA 76 (1-5). At the ceremony of his coronation, Namor asks that Dorma stand by his side, and he elevates Vashti to the role of Grand Vizier. Krang is called before him and banished from the lands of Atlantis. He leaves, but plots his revenge. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
VASHTI [ATLANTEAN] 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 

TALES TO ASTONISH #76 (11p3-12) 
The next day, from TTA 76 (6-11). An earthquake destroys a portion of the city, and Namor suspects that it was caused by weapon testing on the surface. He decides to return to the surface and protect his kingdom. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #77-FB (5p4-6p1) 
One day, Immediately after the last holocaust...the tragic era when Atlantis was almost destroyed. Atlantean scientists create the Behemoth to guard Atlantis, but fear that it might be uncontrollable. 
Characters: 
BEHEMOTH-BTS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #77 (1-12) 
Shortly after TTA 76 (11-12). Namor meets with the royal council and convinces them of his need to travel alone to the surface. In the wake of a second earthquake, he prepares to leave. He orders Dorma to stay behind and keep an eye out for the Behemoth, getting out a warning immediately if it escapes. Near the surface, he discovers that the cause is merely a drill exploring the depths. The project is being run by Doctor Pym and Janet, but when Namor breaks the drill, the military takes over and sends soldiers after the cause. Namor brushes past the soldiers easily, and confronts the people in charge. Meanwhile, on the sea floor, the Behemoth begins to break free. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
VASHTI [ATLANTEAN] 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
GIANT-MAN/HANK PYM 
WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 
BEHEMOTH 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN]-BTS 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #78 (1-8p1) 
Immediately following TTA 77 (1-12). A soldier tries to take a shot at Namor, but Doctor Pym knocks the gun aside, instead puncturing a gas tank and starting a fire. Namor flees, knowing that the fire will destroy the rest of the research equipment. Monitoring radio broadcasts, Puppet Master learns of Namors return to the surface, and quickly makes a puppet of him, ordering him to travel to New York. Doctor Pym tracks Namors movement on radar, and Janet decides to follow as Wasp. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
GIANT-MAN/HANK PYM 
WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 
PUPPET MASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS 

Note: Namor makes a single panel appearance in A 26 here, just swimming his way towards New York. 

TALES TO ASTONISH #78 (8p2-12p1) 
One day, before dark, sometime after TTA 78 (1-8). Namor arrives at Puppet Masters hide out and is ordered to rob a bank. Puppet Master has been hiding for long, humiliating months. A short time later, after dark, Namor robs the bank, setting off the sprinklers in order to increase his strength and break open the vault. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
PUPPET MASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS 

TALES TO ASTONISH #78 (12p2-12p6) 
Early morning, the day after TTA 78 (8-12). Namor returns with the loot, only to be told that hes stolen non-negotiable bonds and is sent back out for cash. On the way, he is spotted by national guardsmen and attacked. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
PUPPET MASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS 

----- 

TALES TO ASTONISH #79 (1-12) 
Immediately following TTA 78 (12). Namor fights the national guardsmen and is badly wounded, but escapes into the river just as the sun is rising. Back in Atlantis, Behemoth attacks, and Dorma takes a submarine to go find Namor. She finds him clinging to the bridge, and he manages to concentrate enough to shatter Puppet Masters hold over him. It turns out that Krang is behind Behemoths awakening, and concerned that Namor might be able to outsmart it and win, he goes to Puppet Master and demands a puppet of the Behemoth. Namor arrives in Atlantis and confronts Behemoth, thinking it to still be a mindless robot. 
Characters: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
VASHTI [ATLANTEAN] 
DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
BEHEMOTH 
KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
PUPPET MASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS 

Note: Placing all of TTA 79 on the same day requires discounting the statement that Krang reaches New York while darkness still blankets the East Coast (12p1) since sunup started at least fifteen minutes (10p3) ago. However, it cant be 18 hours later, because he leaves after Dorma rescues Namor, but arrives before Dorma has just finished explaining the menace of Behemoth to prince Namor (12p3). God bless all these infinitely fast Silver Age transports.

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Thread 56

Posted: 05 Sep 2005 12:21 am    Post subject: Wha...huh?
By Col_Fury

Did anyone else read this? It's extremely stupid, but it's also hi-larious! Holy crap, it's funny. Some of my favorites: 

What if Galactus got food poisoning? 
What if Ghost Rider was more eco-friendly? 
What if the Avengers all had beards?(Cap seems pretty proud of his) 

Like I said, stupid. It almost makes me want to read my issues of What the!?!! 

Well, maybe not.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 05 Sep 2005 02:36 am    
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
What if Galactus got food poisoning? 
<<<

I thought Steve Englehart already did that story...

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Posted: 05 Sep 2005 01:09 pm    
By rhod

Are any of these canon? :wink:

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Thread 57

Posted: 17 Aug 2005 01:52 am    Post subject: What's Coming from Marvel in November:
By Kevin W.
Director

To help us prepare for the chronology to come in the next few months, here are the solicitations for November from Marvel: 

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/nov05/nov05.html 

Geez, talk about a busy month...my advice? Prepare to go broke!  

Major highlights include the following: 

Punisher vs. Bullseye #1, (of 5): A sequel of sorts to the "Bullseye: Greatest Hits" miniseries from a few months back, by Daniel Way and Steve Dillon. 

Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #15: This stand alone issue has 5 different short stories in it, all of which supposedly introduce new heroes to the Marvel Universe! 

Book of Doom #1, (of 6): A "Origin" style miniseries for Dr. Doom, exploring his early years... 

Fantastic Four: The Wedding Special: A one shot containing a new story by Karl Kesel and Drew Johnson, celebrating the 40th Anniversary of the wedding of Reed and Sue. 

Marvel Holiday Special 2005: Let's see if it's as hard to place on a calender as Marvel Holiday Special 2004! 

Giant Size Invaders #2: I didn't know there was a Giant Size Invaders #1?!? But this one-shot has a new short story, along with a bunch of reprints. 

Marvel Team Up #14: Spiderman teams up with...Invincible? A creator owned character by Robert Kirkman? I'm left wondering if it's going to be canon or not... 

MARVEL MONSTERS: FROM THE FILES OF ULYSSES BLOODSTONE (AND THE MONSTER HUNTERS): This one has "bios" of all of the characters from last months "Marvel Monsters" event. Much like the "Secret War: From the Files of Nick Fury" special, this may have info that may be of interest for chronology purposes. 

Sentinel #1, (of 5): A new miniseries sequel to the old Marvel Tsunami line title. 

Captain Universe/Hulk 
Captain Universe/Daredevil 
Captain Universe/X-23 
Captain Universe/Invisible Woman 
Captain Universe/Silver Surfer: Not one, but five one-shots that basically form a miniseries, leading into another Captain Universe miniseries that's supposedly coming soon... 

The Thing #1: Dan Slott on story, Andrea Divito on artwork. If you enjoyed She-Hulk, you'll enjoy this. 

Decimation: House of M-The Day After: A one-shot with a strangely long name... 

Generation M #1, (of 4): A miniseries spinning out of the after effects of House of M...it's not clear if this is truly a sequel to the old Generation X comic book from the 90's, or if it has completely new characters... 

New Excalibur #1: Ongoing series more in line with the Old Excalibur, (not the Excalibur from last year)...it's Claremont's new pet project. 

New Xmen #20: The new creative team takes over, and in the text, it says, "Spinning directly out of House of M #8, the New X-Men deal with the changed world. " Stay tuned to see if this messes up our chronology any... 

Mutopia X #5: I just figured I'd point out that this 'House of M' tie in miniseries doesn't seem to notice that the big event wrapped up a month prior, in October... 

X-Factor #1: An ongoing series which is a sequel to last year's "Madrox" miniseries. 

X-Men: Deadly Genesis #1, (of 6): Another X-men miniseries. And by this point, we're all broke.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 17 Aug 2005 02:11 am    
By JLH

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Punisher vs. Bullseye #1, (of 5): A sequel of sorts to the "Bullseye: Greatest Hits" miniseries from a few months back, by Daniel Way and Steve Dillon. 
<<<

Just as long as they don't pretend this is the first meeting between Punisher and Bullseye (like with Punisher and Blade in the recent MTU)... 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Giant Size Invaders #2: I didn't know there was a Giant Size Invaders #1?!? 
<<<

Where do you think the Invaders made their debut? It WAS the 1970s, after all, where "Giant Size" meant "debut a team"... well, only twice, but still... 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
The Thing #1: Dan Slott on story, Andrea Divito on artwork. If you enjoyed She-Hulk, you'll enjoy this. 
<<<

After the recent Johnny Storm fiasco, and with Slott's She-Hulk not exactly a giant seller itself, I see a backpeddling to a mini-series in this book's future.

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Posted: 17 Aug 2005 06:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Fantastic Four: The Wedding Special: A one shot containing a new story by Karl Kesel and Drew Johnson, celebrating the 40th Anniversary of the wedding of Reed and Sue.  
<<<

Well, we are at a point on the calendar in which we can place a June anniversary story for Reed and Sue. The question will be: before or after House of M?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Aug 2005 08:32 am    
By Ant-Man

It's things like "cameos galore from across the Marvel Universe" in Black Panther #10 that make me cringe. 

Maybe the Uncanny X-Men blurb gives us a little indication of the situations in the post-House of M universe with "Faced with a future she thought was destroyed, Marvel Girl will find out just what she is really made of!"
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 17 Aug 2005 09:55 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Punisher vs. Bullseye #1, (of 5): A sequel of sorts to the "Bullseye: Greatest Hits" miniseries from a few months back, by Daniel Way and Steve Dillon. 
<<<

Just as long as they don't pretend this is the first meeting between Punisher and Bullseye (like with Punisher and Blade in the recent MTU)...  
<<<

Punisher and Bullseye already crossed paths in the BULLSEYE miniseries by the same creative team, so I doubt they're going to make that mistake.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Aug 2005 09:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Fantastic Four: The Wedding Special: A one shot containing a new story by Karl Kesel and Drew Johnson, celebrating the 40th Anniversary of the wedding of Reed and Sue. 


Well, we are at a point on the calendar in which we can place a June anniversary story for Reed and Sue. The question will be: before or after House of M? 
<<<

And then today I crack open Marvel Knights 4 #21 and what do I see? Reed's and Sue's anniversary, clearly the one they'd be celebrating in the present year. So what's up with The Wedding Special? It's not likely to occur the same day as FOUR 21, as Reed and Sue do not see each other the entire day in that story. Maybe a tale of a past anniversary or a continuity implant from their wedding day (as if we don't aleady have enough of that)?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Aug 2005 11:22 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

For now, I'm leaning towards the idea that when Marvel says, "Celebrating their anniversary" they mean the real life 40th anniversary...perhaps in the story itself, it will just be a celebration of their wedding, with the story not neccesarily falling on the actual anniversary date itself.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 07:10 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
For now, I'm leaning towards the idea that when Marvel says, "Celebrating their anniversary" they mean the real life 40th anniversary...perhaps in the story itself, it will just be a celebration of their wedding, with the story not neccesarily falling on the actual anniversary date itself. 
<<<

Kesel seemed to indicate this in an interview over at Newsarama. He says...

Karl Kesel wrote: 
>>>
It starts with something small and normal Reed and Sue going out on a date to spend some quality time together and then something happens that sends it into the realm of the fantastic. Over the course of the story they get to review their entire life together past present and future. More than that I really dont want to say. 
<<<

Plus, Karl's pretty knowledgeable and respectful about continuity in general. I don't think this will cause too many problems.

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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 09:20 am    
By Somebody

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
Maybe the Uncanny X-Men blurb gives us a little indication of the situations in the post-House of M universe with "Faced with a future she thought was destroyed, Marvel Girl will find out just what she is really made of!" 
<<<

And that one made me cringe. Bets on it being another DoFPast redux, anyone? (with attendant ignoring of Davis' last Excalibur arc...)

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 12:40 pm    
By poetdowns

I've seen the adverts for the new titles: 

Decimation: House of M-The Day After: 
Generation M #1, (of 4): 
New Excalibur #1: 
New Xmen #20: 
X-Factor #1: 
X-Men: Deadly Genesis #1, (of 6): 
Sentinal #1 

Yet there is quite a lack of real information. My question is this: Does anybody know if these "new" stories will actualy be new i.e. have new directions, new ideas? 
Or are these simply like add-ons, mini-adventure-stories that simply have the characters you like running around in situations that are connected by a thread to the 'House of M world'? 
How will Excalibur or X-Factor be any different from other books that have an x-team running around? 

anon, 
Poet

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Thread 58

Posted: 08 Sep 2005 01:28 pm    Post subject: Who Is The Sentry
By PeteD

Just read the New Avengers #7 with the apparent revelation regarding the Sentry at the close. 

Am I misreading this or does it suggest that the stories published previously are comic books in the MU and not canon or is it too early to tell? 

Pete.

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 01:42 pm    
By Ant-Man

Have you read #8 and #9 yet? (we wouldn't want to give away too much if you haven't read them)
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 02:47 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Short answer is that although the Sentry certainly did exist and have a superhero career which has been forgotten by everyone, at least some of his memories are implants. But we're halfway through the explanation, so issue #10 may shed more light on the details.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 04:14 pm    
By PeteD

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
Have you read #8 and #9 yet? (we wouldn't want to give away too much if you haven't read them) 
<<<

Not yet, #8 is on the way, #9 probably in the following shipment. 

Sounds like it will all answer my question, though, judging by Paul's comments. 

Thanks for the comments. 

Pete.
