	Marvel Universe Forum
1. "Megamorphs"... it's canon?
2. Female Doctor Spectrum in New Thunderbolts #12
3. Watcher and What If note
4. QUARK II
5. Marvel Knights Spiderman #18
6. SNAPDRAGON/SHEOKE SANADA
7. Howard the Duck chronology
8. Jennifer Kale
9. Daredevil vol. 2 #77
10. question about Micronauts and Shogun Warriors
11. Fury and Castle's chronology; Marvel Knights Handbook 2005
12. Spider-Man & Venom differences
13. Spider-Man HOM Problem
14. WING, PROFESSOR
15. Baron Strucker question
16. Punisher Man Named Frank Canon?
17. Uncanny X-Men Annual #18
18. Chillers canon? Mutant Agenda?
19. Annie Christopher
20. Magik 1-4 Corrections
21. Jennifer Kale
22. Flashbacks in the House of M
23. Steve Gerber characters
24. More X-Factor madness...
25. Horror Handbook notes
26. Bill Nelson
27. Joanne Tumulo
28. Wolverine in Crimson Dawn #1
29. Q 50 addition & question
30. Heavy Metal
31. TOS 73-74 & ST 138-140
32. Characters in Dormammu's reality
33. X-Men Timeline
34. Sgt. Tork
35. Man-Thing and Centurius
36. Hellstorm
37. Guardians of the Galaxy
38. Flashback appearance for Prof X
39. order correction: Man-Thing
40. Captain America
41. ST 160-167
42. Kitty's Fairy Tale

	Ultimate Universe Forum
43. The solution to the Ross / Ultimates / FF continuity problem

	Issue Analysis Forum
44. Marvel Monsters: Devil Dinosaur
45. Target Presents: Reading to the Rescue! #3
46. FF/IM Big In Japan #1
47. Marvel Presents #9-10
48. X-Force: Shatterstar #1-4
49. Marvel Presents #3-8
50. Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects #1-6
51. Shanna the She-Devil v2 #1-7
52. M/CP 124/4: Solo
53. M/CP 123/3-126/3: She-Hulk
54. TOXIN 1-6 analysis
55. M/CP 128/3: American Eagle
56. M/CP 130/3: American Eagle
57. Gravity #1-5
58. M/CP 129/3: Crossbones
59. M/CP 127/3: Speedball
60. M/CP 123-130: Wolverine
61. Chronology Review for Punisher MAX #19-24:
62. M/CP 131: Wolverine
63. M/CP 131/3: Ant-Man
64. M/CP 132/3: Iron Man
65. M/CP 123/2-130/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary
66. Black Panther vol 4, #1-6
67. M/CP 125/4-132/4: Iron Fist
68. M/CP 133/3-136/3: Iron Fist
69. M/CP 133/4: Cloak & Dagger
70. M/CP 135/4: Black Widow
71. M/CP 136/4: Daredevil
72. M/CP 132-136: Wolverine
73. M/CP 134/4: Major Victory
74. Marvel Monsters: Monsters on the Prowl
75. Black Panther vol 4, #7: HoM
76. [HoM crossover] FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1-3
77. [HoM crossover] IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1-3
78. [HoM crossover] THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #83-86
79. [HoM crossover] EXILES #69-71
80. [HoM crossover] CABLE & DEADPOOL #16-17
81. [HoM crossover] CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10
82. [HoM crossover] THE PULSE #10
83. M/CP 131/2-136/2: Ghost Rider/Cage

	Chat Forum
84. What's coming from Marvel in December
85. What's coming from Marvel in January
86. Anyone else bothered by this?
87. New Member



Thread 1

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 07:39 am    Post subject: "Megamorphs"... it's canon?
By Tragiko

I have a question concerning the limited serie "MEGAMORPHS", published in these months from the Marvel... 

It's canon? or not? 

If it's a canon series, the events happen before or after "Disassembled"? 


... in "Avengers Finale" one-shot, Stark admits that not have money in order to finance the Avengers... therefore, where has found Tony the money necessary to construct the Mecha? 


(Excuse, for my bad english)
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 08:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Presumably non-canon, since it's not really the sort of concept that can readily be introduced and then forgotten about. Also, key parts of the story are only available with the mini-comics included with the toys themselves. 

Basically, it's such a silly idea that I think that in itself is enough to overcome the usual presumption of canonicity. It MIGHT turn out to be canon, of course, but I'd assume not until Marvel says otherwise.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 04:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The mini-comics will be included in the Megamorphs digest, so that's not much of a problem. 

However ... look at the characters present. Dr. Doom, for one, is alive and well, and the X-Men are in their ReLoad outfits (I think). CAN this even fit anywhere in continuity? 

-Jeph!

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Thread 2

Posted: 16 Sep 2005 07:19 am    Post subject: Female Doctor Spectrum in New Thunderbolts #12
By Ant-Man

I just read New Thunderbolts #12, and there is an appearance by a female Doctor Spectrum. 

The only previous female Spectrum that I remember was Janet Van Dyne (when the crystal possessed her back in an Avengers Annual). 

Is this a new character, or have we seen her previously?
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 09:04 am    
By Somebody

Simple answer - we don't know. Given that it's Nicieza we're talking about, there's probably a pre-existing character beneath the costume and prism, but as NTB12 is the first appearance of this Dr Spectrum there's no way of knowing. 

Of course, the question of where the <bleep> the PP came from is another matter. The old SqSinister one, with the Skrull consciousness, ceased to exist when it attached itself to Mjolinr to possess Thor and Mjolnir promptly reverted to a cane (in the same Avengers Annual you mentioned). There weren't even any fragments left to rejoin that time. (and the SqSupreme version was shattered and absorbed by that Dr Spectrum, oc)

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 10:37 am    
By Ant-Man

I just wanted to make sure that there were no other confirmed appearances of a female Spectrum (since that's the only info that we have about the character). 

I had my questions about the source of her powers, but there's a good chance that may never be addressed, if she makes no further appearances.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 11:54 am    
By Somebody

She's on one of the preview pages for #13

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 06:13 pm    
By Ant-Man

Thanks for the info. 
I hadn't seen the preview pages, but after you mentioned them I found them at IGN.com
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 09:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Since we're on the topic of TB2 12, who are all the superhumans attacking Atlas on page 4? I recognize Vulture, Iron Man, Wizard, Namorita, Spider-Woman, Human Torch, and Nova. But who's the person with the blue glove in the upper left of that panel? The two-tone blue guy to the right of Nita? The red-caped person with the staff in the upper right?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 09:34 pm    
By Ant-Man

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The two-tone blue guy to the right of Nita? 
<<<

Blue Shield can't fly, can he? If he could, then the color scheme would fit...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 16 Sep 2005 10:43 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Hazarding a possibly spoilery guess: the new Doctor Spectrum is Karla Sofen. 

-Sean

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Posted: 17 Sep 2005 02:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'd say that's a darn good guess, Sean.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Sep 2005 11:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Isn't the red-caped guy with the staff Asgardian, from the Young Avengers? I'm not sure I have the name right, but you know who I mean. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Sep 2005 09:11 am    
By Somebody

It is... 

BUUUT the appearances of Asgardian and Iron Lad here - http://www.buzzscope.com/reviews/4895/4895_5.jpg - are a problem. Young Avengers #1-6 are pre-NA1. NTB #12 is post-HoM. 

And Asgardian's become Wiccan (and dumped the staff and got a different costume) and Iron Lad's gone from this time period by the end of YA6.

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Posted: 19 Sep 2005 06:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't see Iron Lad -- I see Iron Man. Am I wrong? 

And could Wiccan's costume just be written off as "art error"? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 19 Sep 2005 06:37 pm   
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I don't see Iron Lad -- I see Iron Man. Am I wrong? 
<<<

Nope. I noted Iron Man myself. 


Quote: 
>>>
And Asgardian's become Wiccan (and dumped the staff and got a different costume) 
<<<

Well, there's still time for Wiccan to go back to his old Asgardian costume, providing that future issues of YA allow for it and occur before TB2 12. Nahhh. 

Wouldja believe...(that old standby) the Wiccan costume was in the wash? 


_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 06:47 am    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I don't see Iron Lad -- I see Iron Man. Am I wrong? 
<<<

Nope - Iron Man on the left, Iron Lad on the right (above Nova). The gauntlets are very slightly miscoloured (the depressions drawn in should be silver), but it's definitely him. 

jephyork wrote: 
And could Wiccan's costume just be written off as "art error"? 

Maybe - he's had the smallest change out of the YAers, so if there's anyone of them for which it could be written off as such, it's him. It helps that we can't see his headband from the angle and distance too. But, oc, IL messes that excuse up.

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 08:24 
By Mikhail

No, that's definitely Iron Lad on the LEFT -- it has the yellow glowing ports on his gauntlets. The guy above Nova is the Wingless Wizard. See the bulbous egghead? I think the "Blue Shield" is Gravity.

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 10:09 am    
By Ant-Man

Mikhail wrote: 
>>>
I think the "Blue Shield" is Gravity. 
<<<

That sounds like a pretty good call. I wasn't even thinking about him. (I haven't read any of the Gravity series, so he didn't cross my mind.)
_________________
-Brian Cook-

Last edited by Ant-Man on 20 Sep 2005 04:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 03:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Since we can't seem to agree which character is supposed to be Iron Lad -- and since, at this time, Iron Lad doesn't exist anymore -- why don't we just agree that the guy on the left is Iron Man and the guy on the right is the Wizard. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 08:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, then, so we have Vulture, Iron Man, Wizard, Namorita, Spider-Woman, Human Torch, Nova, Gravity, and Wiccan on laundry day. Plus, the guy with the blue glove in the upper left and the totally indistinguishable character I never bothered to mention to begin with. 
...Right...?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Sep 2005 10:02 pm    
By John Simons

Need you even ask? "Blue Glove" is obviously Batman... 

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Posted: 21 Sep 2005 09:58 pm    
By Col_Fury

Isn't "Blue Glove" Justice? The color scheme matches, he's seen on previous pages, & we can't see those 'bumps' on his glove because we're seeing the interor, not the exterior of the glove. 

I'm seeing Iron Man in 'night-lighting,' meaning the usually gold areas of his suit are colored differently because of the bluish hue of the sky reflecting off the surface. And that's definitely the Wizard on the right. 

The totally indishtinguishable guy? With the line down his leg? I have no idea.
_________________
Go get 'em, Cap!

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 05:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So we're agreed: Iron Man, the Wizard, and Wiccan with art errors.  

By the way, a preview page for an upcoming New Thunderbolts issue shows the female Dr. Spectrum with her mask off. She's blonde ... but that's about the only resemblance she's got to the character guessed earlier in this thread.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 07:49 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Moonstone was capable of altering her appearance. If her new powers are anything like her old powers, she's probably capable of doing the same now as well. Similarity between her Moonstone and Doctor Spectrum powers seems pretty likely, given that Nicieza tied the origins of the moonstone and the Power Prism together in Thunderbolts vol. 1. Of course, I could be wrong. 

-Sean

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Posted: 23 Sep 2005 07:47 am    
By Mikhail

Hey, maybe on Counter-Earth, Lloyd Bloch got the moon stone and became Phantom Eagle, and Karla Sofen got the power prism and became Doctor Spectrum. 

Two Karlas running around...YAY! / *shudder* ...

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Posted: 23 Sep 2005 08:24 am    
By Ant-Man

If anyone's interested, here's the female Spectrum unmasked: 

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Dec_05/fullNTBOLT016_col.jpg
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 23 Sep 2005 12:10 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

My money's on Barbara Gordon. 

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 08:48 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Also in regards to New Thunderbolts #12: We've come to the end of the Purple Man story arc, and the Swordsman still hasn't joined the team...so there's still not a reason given why the new Swordsman was in the Thunderbolts headquarters in the pages of GLA #2.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 3

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 03:10 pm    Post subject: Watcher and What If note
By Enda80

New Warriors I#6 or so on page 25 has the New Warriors and Star-Thief walk in on the Watcher viewing alternate realities. Three screens appeared; two seemed to be of Cosmic Avengers, and another showed a black costumed Spider-Man holding a woman. #14's letters page says all of these images came from actual What If issues.

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 04:42 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Your point being? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 05:05 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Er... yes. Sorry, Enda, but these sorts of random facts with no context are really no use to us. We haven't got a clue what point you're trying to make.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 05:22 pm    
By Enda80

Well, couldn't this serve as a clue to when in the Watcher's chronology his narration of those issues takes place? 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=823&highlight=quasar

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 07:00 pm    
By Somebody

If you want to post on that thread, hit "postreply", not "newtopic"

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 10:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
couldn't this serve as a clue to when in the Watcher's chronology his narration of those issues takes place? 
<<<

Why didn't you say that in your inital post, John? I'm not sure how many times we have to tell you -- but you need to RE-READ your posts BEFORE you post them, and make sure that OTHERS WILL UNDERSTAND THEM. Make sure you're actually making a point -- in a clear, concise way, with an actual beginning, middle and end. 

Please reply, and let us know that you understand this. Usually when we tell you stuff like this, you ignore it. This time, I'd like a reply. 

As to your point ... I'm of the mind that the Watcher narrated WI issues in order -- he narrated #1, then #2, then #3, etc. 

If NW #6 turns out to be showing us three consecutive issues of What If -- I might buy that he recorded narration for them near his appearance in that issue. If not -- I'd hazard a guess that he's either doing research for upcoming narrations, or looking over worlds he'd previously analyzed. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 03:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jeph is right, John. We are not mind readers. There is no earthly way that anyone reading your initial post in this thread could possibly have worked out the point you were trying to make.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 4

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 08:14 am    Post subject: QUARK II
By Ant-Man

The character listed as QUARK II initially appeared in the Longshot limited series. 
He was part of the group that followed Longshot throught the portal from MojoWorld in issue #1, and made several additional appearances in that series before joining agreeing to join Longshot and Ricochet Rita in issue #6. 
The following issues need to be added to his chronology: 
- 
QUARK 
*LSHOT 1 
*LSHOT 2 
*LSHOT 3 
*LSHOT 5 
*LSHOT 6 
X@ 1 
M/FAN2 4 
M/FAN2 5 
XFOR 60 
XFOR 61 

-- 

He should be changed to QUARK instead of QUARK II and QUARK/SCARLETT MCKENZIE should be changed to QUARK II/SCARLETT MCKENZIE
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 5

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 08:56 pm    Post subject: Marvel Knights Spiderman #18
By Kevin W.
Director

*mild spoilers alert!* 

In this issue, the battle between Ethan the Super Skrull and the New Avengers gets resolved when Aunt May confronts Ethan and tells him he's a good man. 

Near the end of this issue, Sue Storm comments "Speaking of whom...just who was that little old lady?" 

And all of the New Avengers keep quiet, to save Peter Parker's secret identity. 

The point being this issue obviously takes place before Spiderman/Human Torch #5, (in which all of the FF learn of Peter Parker's secret identity).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Um, Kev...check out the "Spidey's identity and the FF" thread further down the forum.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 12:53 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Sorry, I just got around to reading this issue a couple of days ago, (though it came out in Mid September). Every once in a while, I fall behind on a book, and this was one of those cases... 

As such, I think I passed over your comments in the other thread, (didn't want to spoil the story), and thus, conveniently forgot all about that thread, remembering it only as the thread where you debated how far ahead to put the "flash-forward" segments from the end of SM/HT 5... 

Move along, folks, nothing to see here... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 6

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 03:02 pm    Post subject: SNAPDRAGON/SHEOKE SANADA
By Ant-Man

Snapdragon appears in Marvel Fanfare #12 and #13 (fighting the Black Widow) prior to her appearance in CA 388 

- 

SNAPDRAGON/SHEOKE SANADA 
CA 403/2-FB 
**M/FAN 12 
**M/FAN 13 
CA 388 
CA 389
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 04:46 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The Wrangler (the first one listed on the MCP) also appeared in that storyline. 

-Sean

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Thread 7

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 05:19 pm    Post subject: Howard the Duck chronology
By scottandrewhutchins

From the howard_the_duck Yahoo! group... 

<<> He is in 81 & 82. Chronologyproject.com says that this comes just 
> before his Generation X appearances 

That does not feel right. If I remember correctly, he is in New York in 
both GR issues, in Californa in GX 20-21, then back in NY in GX 23. I 
think it is much more likely to assume that GR 80-81 occur between GX 21 
and 23. 

> M/TIO 46 (which they list as taking place just before HTD #1) 

Is that the terrible Uncle Waddles issue? I still fail to see how that 
qualifies for the Chronology at all. I mean, is it even Howard? 

Fredrik>>

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Thread 8

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 05:21 pm    Post subject: Jennifer Kale
By scottandrewhutchins

Still missing from her chronology are The Legion of Night 1 & 2, Midnight Sons Unlimited 9, and Witches 1-4. I believe The Legion of Night also features N'Astirh.

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 08:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You want to provide an analysis of Legion of Night? 


watching: newsnight

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Thread 9

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:03 pm    Post subject: Daredevil vol. 2 #77
By Kevin W.
Director

Just figured I'd note it: 

The latest issue of Daredevil shows that the book is now caught up to what's going on in the pages of New Avengers: Nick Fury is no longer in charge of SHIELD. Director Hill, (from the pages of New Avengers) is running SHIELD in this book as well. Fury was last shown running SHIELD in this book in Issues #61-64, (which was pre-Disassembled, I believe).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:34 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good catch, Kevin. Any indication of how much time separates DD2 75 from the arc starting in DD2 76?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 12:59 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

It doesn't specifically say, (for now, anyway). Director Hill is noted as being somewhat new to the job, though, (in this issue, it's the first time she's met the Black Widow). 

It very well could be a good deal of time has passed since DD2 75 and DD2 76, (if you need to move DD up the calender to catch up with the rest of the titles)...at the start of the storyline, it is suggested that public interest has died off in regards to DD's secret identity.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 08:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This makes me wonder how DD:FATHER is going to fit into the picture -- in the gap between DD2 75 and 76? After DD2 81? I'm starting to think that mini-series may be the latest, chronologically, with Jessica Jones showing up there after the birth of her baby. I'm sure time will tell.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 10

Posted: 17 Aug 2005 08:39 pm    Post subject: question about Micronauts and Shogun Warriors
By cnowlin

I was wondering about certain books and if you consider them canon. Things like Shogun Warriors and Micronauts where you've included the issues where Spider-man and the like guest star, but you otherwise seem to skip them. Human Fly as well. Has an official decision been made on books like these. 

Thanks

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Posted: 17 Aug 2005 09:38 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

They'll be added, one day. But not before the gap is closed. 


watching: current affair

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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 09:45 am    
By ShadZ

Just curious: Why weren't they originally included? Were those comics just not in your personal collection?
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 10:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

No, I had them. My perception at the time (and it may have been incorrect), was that the characters from these titles never appeared in any books, outside of those titles (if you were looking to know what order to read the character's stories, just read the stories in order), so I just didn't see the need to include them. 


watching: cnn

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 08:33 pm    
By lkseitz

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
They'll be added, one day. But not before the gap is closed. 
<<<

Does that mean my work on the Shogun Warrior chronologies from March won't see the light of day until then? 

And can I add, to cnowlin, that he can check out this post for more Shogun Warriorsy goodness than he probably wanted? 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1246
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 11

Posted: 19 Feb 2005 03:32 pm    Post subject: Fury and Castle's chronology; Marvel Knights Handbook 2005
By Enda80

The Nick Fury entry was fun as it tries to order his adventures....a mean task considering all the Howling Commandos guest appearances over the years to wit. 

The fourth paragraph of his history attempts to place these adventures in linear order. To wit: 

Fury receives-unwittingly-the Infinity Formula from Sternberg. (Cf. Marvel Spotlight#31) 

First mission of Howlers; Sgt. Fury#44, takes place in 1942 

First battle with Zemo; Sgt. Fury#8, weeks after first mission of Howlers, Zemo's book of the dead entry places it early in 1942 

Mid-1942; Fury first meets Pamela Hawley (cf. Sgt. Fury#4) 

July 1942; Fury meets Dracula (ref MCP#77-79?) 

Late 1942; Fury meets Desert Hawk, Captain Starr, Combat Casey (ref Sgt. Fury#37?) 

1943; Fury meets a time travelling Stephen Strange (ref Doctor Strange II#50-51) 

Weeks after meeting Strange, Fury meets Jean-Luc Lebeau (ref Gambit#16?) 

Fury decides to propose to Hawley, she dies. (ref Sgt. Fury#18) 

Months, Jake Fury kidnapped by Klaue (ref Sgt. Fury#68-69) 

April 1944; Fury and Cap versus Red Skull (ref Cap @9) 

Weeks later, Fury versus Strucker in Gruenstadt (ref Nick Fury III#1-5) 

June, 6 1944; Fury at D-Day (ref?) 

Fury meets Ancient One (ref Otherworld War) 

Weeks later Fury and Cap save Michael Kramer (ref Spider-Woman I#42) 

Fury at Battle of Bulge (ref?) 

1945, Fury versus Algernon Crowe (referenced in Mys-Tech Wars#1) 

Fury meets Mr. Sinster (ref Weapon X#14) 

Fury meets Ishii (ref Nick Fury III#38) 

Sternberg blackmails Fury (ref MP#31) 

Korean missin of Howlers (ref Sgt. Fury Annual#1) 

Team Valkyire? 

Note; this handbook treats the flashback from Daredevil#322(?) with the origin of about face as taking place in 1963 or thirty years ago. Thus, any references to SHIELD in that fb can be written off as chronicler's errors. (Tony Stark helped start SHIELD after he became Iron Man.) 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=497&highlight=costa 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/hawleyladypamela.htm 

Castle's tangled chronology is so delineated 

Castle leaves the seminary, disagreeing with the Church's teaching that there could be no forgiveness without punishment (Castle apparently never having heard of the concepts of Purgatory or Hell.) Ref Intruder GN. 

Castle slays Sgt. Mikuta (ref 'Nam#67-69) 

Castle meets Cleve Gorman (ref Big Nothing GN) 

Castle versus the Monkey (ref 'Nam#52-53) 

Castle saved by Kenyon (ref ASM#175?) 

Note; a soldier named Kenyon appears in a fb in Big Nothing where they evacuate the offices of the Fisk company (connected to Wilson Fisk?) 

Second tour of duty; 
Castle meets Rich Von Burian (PWJ#18) 

Special Forces: 
meets De Sade, the Spook and Ice Phillips 

Third Tour; 

Born occurs (Garth Ennis series) 

Fourth Tour 

Faces Death Doctor (ref Final Invasion) 

Pretty good. Oh, by the way, this entry also includes a list of people Castle met during his military time that was based on a sentence in my entry for Ice Phillips. 


Others who would have fought in the conflict that Ice Phillips and Castle participated in would include the Sniper (von Burian), Walter Chin, Lee Inoguchi, Al Levin, Dr. William Pope, Barry "Red" Thorne, Colonel Ray Schoonover, Quincy Jefferson and Angela Wynoski (from Punisher: Bloodlines), the Hitman, Cleve Gorman, the Mechanic, Mike Hauley, the Hitman (Burt Kenyon), Joe Rainey, Chris Hoyle, Bruce Ayers, John Carmody (from What If II#10; although a What If story, one can count this, since What If Worlds resemble Earth-616 exactly before the point of divergence, and Carmody's wartime encounters with Castle fall in a timeframe before the point of divergence), Joe Perrett, Roger Wong, and ANZAC Spider Roque. 

I think I hit everybody except for D.X. and Shotgun. Anyone else introduced as an "old army buddy"? Where did D.X. appear?

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2005 07:36 pm    
By Ron Flick

Thanks for pointing out the simplified WWII chronology of Sgt. Fury in the recent Marvel Knights handbook. I'll have to pick up a copy! 

Over the last few years, I've made sporadic attempts at trying to make sense of the Howlers chronology. In Sgt. Fury's earliest adventures, the reader was led to believe that the timeframe was much later in the war, around 1944. U.S. troops were shown engaging in combat in Europe and there were already references to D-Day and the Bulge in the first couple of issues. Later, the timeframe was shifted to an earlier period, and we started getting stories set in North Africa, before the Allied invasion of Europe. 

I've easily discounted the later war references in the earlier issues, but the two references I've had trouble eliminating are the ones mentioned in issues #34 and #44. In issue #34, the evolution of the Howlers takes place in a period of over a year. In the story, Sawyer, Fury, and Dugan spend most of 1942 forming and training for the elite commando squad. This, of course, parallels what actually happened during the war. In 1942, the U.S. did not participate in the war in Europe until late in 1942, when it began to help with the battles in North Africa. (U.S. action in 1942 was concentrated in the Pacific, due to direct attack from Japan). It wasn't until 1943 when troops moved into Italy, and 1944 when they moved into northwestern and central Europe. Continuing with the original chronology, in issue #44, the Howlers' first mission is shown taking place in late 1942, when snow is on the ground around Paris. These stories suggest that the earliest Howler adventures did not take place until early 1943. 

Now through retconning, the Howlers are shown galavanting all around Europe in 1942, much too early to coincide with the what truly happened during the war, and also eliminating a very credible origin that was laid out in issues #34 and #44. What is weird about this whole retcon, is the fact that it was Roy Thomas who wrote the original origin for the Howlers, and it was Roy who destroyed it! Take a look at the original Invaders series where he has Baron Zemo already masked in early 1942, and later he has the Howlers make a brief cameo appearance around May of 1942. Roy also continued this earlier origin theory with his references in Captain America: the Medusa Effect, in which he flashbacks to the first Fury/Zemo battle, stating that it took  place in early 1942. 

Oh well, at least it seems it has been finally established that the Howlers somehow formed quickly in 1942 and perhaps spearheaded combat in Europe earlier than the world was led to believe. 

Nothing like some good old fashioned re-writing of history!!! 

Ron Flick

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Posted: 28 Feb 2005 05:22 pm    
By Enda80

Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
What is weird about this whole retcon, is the fact that it was Roy Thomas who wrote the original origin for the Howlers, and it was Roy who destroyed it! Take a look at the original Invaders series where he has Baron Zemo already masked in early 1942, and later he has the Howlers make a brief cameo appearance around May of 1942. Roy also continued this earlier origin theory with his references in Captain America: the Medusa Effect, in which he flashbacks to the first Fury/Zemo battle, stating that it took  place in early 1942. 
<<<


Zemo never appeared in any Invaders series. In FF@11, the FF visited an alternate Earth's past in 1942 after the events of the nullatron adventure per a comment by that world's Namor; it was said to be an alternate Earth in both that story and What If I#1 (Watcher's narration). Check out my Earth-597 timeline further info.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2005 07:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Check out my Earth-597 timeline further info. 
<<<

Where? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2005 10:20 pm    
By Enda80

http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timeline597.html 

Google has an improved version with more info, incorporating Yamatai and the Hyborian Age pre-history of Japan.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 04:14 am    
By Enda80

Incidentally, a while ago, someone noted that a Sgt. Fury story showed Germany bombing Britain at a point which seemed too late in the conflict. So, it was postulated that this could serve as a the last valiant effort of a scientist (such as Zemo). Well, Midnight Suns Unlimited#9 has a Blazing Skull story where Germany has developed the Vergel: Tungswaffe Dei: The V-3, a weapon they use after January 1945 to resume the attack on Britain. 

By the way, a possible error in this error; reference is made to Roxxon existing in the 1940's, but Iron Age indicates the company did not assume that name till the modern era.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 10:09 am    
By BobMM

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, a possible error in this error; reference is made to Roxxon existing in the 1940's, but Iron Age indicates the company did not assume that name till the modern era. 
<<<

Back then Roxxon was probably known as Rosso or Ronco -- but I doubt it was ever called "Humble."

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 10:34 am    
By Somebody

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, a possible error in this error; reference is made to Roxxon existing in the 1940's, but Iron Age indicates the company did not assume that name till the modern era. 
<<<

<Roxxon predecessor> merged with <smaller company called Roxxon>, to form <RP>-Roxxon, later market research led them to drop the <RP> and simply be called "Roxxon".

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 10:13 pm    
By JLH

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Castle's tangled chronology is so delineated 

Castle leaves the seminary, disagreeing with the Church's teaching that there could be no forgiveness without punishment (Castle apparently never having heard of the concepts of Purgatory or Hell.) Ref Intruder GN. 

Castle slays Sgt. Mikuta (ref 'Nam#67-69) 

Castle meets Cleve Gorman (ref Big Nothing GN) 

Castle versus the Monkey (ref 'Nam#52-53) 

Castle saved by Kenyon (ref ASM#175?) 

Note; a soldier named Kenyon appears in a fb in Big Nothing where they evacuate the offices of the Fisk company (connected to Wilson Fisk?) 

Second tour of duty; 
Castle meets Rich Von Burian (PWJ#18) 

Special Forces: 
meets De Sade, the Spook and Ice Phillips 

Third Tour; 

Born occurs (Garth Ennis series) 

Fourth Tour 

Faces Death Doctor (ref Final Invasion) 

Pretty good.
<<<

No, not good at all. They're taking the name of "Final Invasion" far too literally, and ignoring how "Born" has the clear finality of his days in 'Nam, whereas "Final Invasion" is doesn't even try to imply it's his last days there. I went over this in pretty good detail not long ago: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=497 

I seem to recall you cutting and pasting my post to Usenet, in fact.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2005 06:59 am    
By Enda80

Sorry about that, and sorry about that, Mr. York. 

Do Hembeck pages in Marvel Age count for continuity? I found one that might. 


(Marvel Age#109 (fb)) In order to destroy the morale of the US, Hitler had Santa Claus captured in December 1943. Roosevelt described this situation to Captain America. Bucky, Captain America, and Nick Fury managed to locate Santa Claus, with a mauser held to his head by Hitler. 

Years later, when the Pauline Plunderer returned as the Hate-Monger, Santa Claus helped stop him on one case.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2005 07:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The canonicity of Hembeck strips appears to vary on a case-by-case basis but some of them, at least, have been accepted as taking place in the MU.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 04 Oct 2005 05:27 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
sorry about that, Mr. York. 
<<<

Are you apologizing for not providing a link to your Earth-597 write-up back in February, in this thread? Or are you apologizing for the stuff I asked you to apologize for in another thread? 

If the latter, don't you think you ought to do it IN THAT THREAD? 

Sometimes you really, really worry me, John. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Oct 2005 08:07 pm    
By Enda80

"Posted: 01 May 2004 11:21 am Post subject: Fury's WWII Chronology - including Captain Savage 
By Agent of Shield 


24. The rest of the Sgt. Fury stories appear to be chronological after #108 (except #119). One anachronism is #117 in which is set in London during a German bombing raid. If this takes place after D-Day, the Germans weren't bombing England anymore. Since this is the Mavel Universe, we can assume that maybe this was an heroic effort on the part of some mad Nazi officer (Zemo anyone?). 

This is obviously incomplete but my best shot at reconciling artistic license with actual historical events" 

Well, Agent of SHIELD, it turns out we found a rational in that Blazing Skull story above.

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Thread 12

Posted: 05 Oct 2005 01:33 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man & Venom differences
By bmk88

Rechecking Venom chrono I've just found some differences in his & Spider-Man chronology during his first days on Earth. 
I mean f.e PPTSS@ 4 & @ 4/2 which - for Peter - is between pages of ASM 258 (and after M/TU 146) but much earlier for Venom - also after M/TU 146, but before ASM 256. 
Same problem is with H2 300 or SUB-M2 3 and some others issues: Venom in M/TU 142-BTS & M/TU 143-BTS before PPTSS 92-BTS but Peter after or Spidy in ASM 261 after PPTSS 98 but Venom FF 274 ~ ASM 261 before PPTSS 98 
I've just wonder if it's simple mistake or delibarate acting? 
Due to character of their bonds at the time and after rereading those old stories I can't find reason to place VENOM (mostly BTS) appearances in different order than SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER. 
Any clues ? 
cheers

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Posted: 05 Oct 2005 04:28 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Just speculating here.... 

Originally, Venom's bts appearances would have exactly matched Spider-Man's. In fact, they were probably copied/pasted, with the "bts" notations added. 

Since that split, I'd wager that minor changes/tweaks have been made to Spider-Man's chronology, and we've overlooked making the same tweaks to Venom's listing. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 06 Oct 2005 07:49 am    
By bmk88

thx, 
that's explanation I've thought about.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 20 Aug 2005 05:47 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man HOM Problem
By garbonzo

Ok. I haven't seen this addressed yet, but maybe i just haven't looked hard enough. In The main HOM title, we see Peter Parker get "woken up" while he is out on a walk with his family. He has a shaved head, so this clearly takes place during the HOM:Spider-man seried. And, as another placement clue, he and hs family are not being chased by angry mobs, so it has to be before the end of the second issue. 

But, here is the problem...nowhere in the HOM:Spider-man story does there appear to be a time where he is "awake". He is going through everything as if HOM is his reality. So...where do the HOM: Spider-man and the main HOM title meet? Any thoughts?

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Posted: 20 Aug 2005 10:44 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Seems a pretty fair assumption that all of Spider-Man: HoM #1-5 occurs before he gets "woken up", no? 

The fact that there aren't any angry mobs *in that scene* doesn't mean anything. For all you know, Spider-Man: HoM #5 could wrap with the mobs appeased and Peter Parker a happy public figure once again. Alternately, he might be hated and shunned but just happened to get one good walk in that day where nobody bugged him. 

Let's wait until the mini ends before deciding that things are "problems". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 01:25 pm    
By garbonzo

you have more faith in the editorial cohesiveness than I my friend. But, as you are the boss (or one of them) I hereby withdraw my assertion that it is a "problem" and re-submit it as a concern.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2005 07:48 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Don't back down just because I'm a mod, garbonzo. I don't have "more authority" than you in terms of chronolgical opinions -- I'm just saying, let's wait and see how the story ends. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 10:56 am    
By garbonzo

don't worry. I'm not backing down just because you are a mod (remember the whole "Is Jack God?" thread). You have a valid point. the storyline isn't resolved yet. But, I would like to bring it to the attentiion of the board so that they can keep their eyes peeled for this potential glitch.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 06:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Consider 'em peeled, garbonzo. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Sep 2005 06:28 pm    
By stavesacre79

Just something to keep in mind while we wait for the HOM: SM series to resolve: hair grows back. We can't assume that a shaved head means anything as far as a chronological clue because enough time could have passed for his hair to grow back and then for him to shave again.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Sep 2005 06:27 pm    
By ajbrown

Given the way Spidey acts in HoM 6 I'm pretty sure that all of Spidey: HoM (1-5) takes place before he is "woken up". 

This means that it's reasonably certain that Spidey will be liked again by the public towards the end of the Spidey HoM mini-series. 

I wish that Marvel still did tiny editorial boxes telling you where stories fitted. They must have known the order of the HoM books and they must have known that this problem would have occured. How hard would it be to put a small box in Spidey HoM 1 saying "This mini-series occurs before the events of HoM 3". Sorry for the rant but this annoys me... a lot!
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 11 Sep 2005 06:44 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Maybe they figured their audience was learned and well-read and could dope it out on their own. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Sep 2005 09:14 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

ajbrown wrote: 
>>>
I wish that Marvel still did tiny editorial boxes telling you where stories fitted. They must have known the order of the HoM books and they must have known that this problem would have occured. How hard would it be to put a small box in Spidey HoM 1 saying "This mini-series occurs before the events of HoM 3". Sorry for the rant but this annoys me... a lot! 
<<<

I believe Marvel has determined that's our job. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 13 Sep 2005 03:13 pm    
By stavesacre79

I actually talked to Joe Quesada at comic con about the editorial boxes (which I am also a huge fan of.) He said that so long as he is Editor in Cheif they shall never again appear in Marvel comics (apparently he doesn't like them.) He justified it to me by saying it's like watching a TV show or a movie and having the director interrupt and explain something. While I understand the comparison, editorial boxes are much more easily ignored AND incredibly helpful. 
Okay, sorry, that's my rant for the day. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2005 04:14 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

He has a point (and they're also extremely inconvenient for the trade paperbacks). And if you need to have read the earlier story to understand the present one then that's just bad writing. On the other hand, I think they do serve a valid function in making it clear to readers when the characters are referring to a previously published story, as opposed to when they're simply dropping hints about untold events from their past.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Sep 2005 04:34 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

It's the sort of thing that the letters page should be used for, honestly. It would be more useful than the "amusing banter" they have now.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 15 Sep 2005 03:16 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'd gleefully see the letters pages used for almost anything other than actual letters, given that they're reduced to running pretty much everything they get these days.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Sep 2005 07:23 am    
By JD

Er, hi, I've been lurking around here for a while, and I finally have a few ideas worth being exposed here. 

First, about the placement of HoM itself. The more I think about it, and the more I believe that X-Men 171-176 and BP4 8-9 both occur before HoM. I know it's mainly speculation ; at this point the only argument in favor of this is that the "HoM followup arc" in X-Men starts in issue 177 : it would be very strange for the X-Men to have a few adventures where nothing seems to have changed, and then notice HoM. 
The fact that BP4 7 is part of HoM is not that much a problem for this theory, since we already know that some stories published after HoM crossovers actually occur before HoM (like the NXM:AX Yearbook or CA 11-...). 

Then, there is the whole problem of the internal chronology of House of M itself. I personally think that everything we see actually "happens" (ie is set between the reality alteration at the end of HOM 1, and the mandatory return to normality in HOM 8). This seems quite workable, since I don't think we've seen any flashbacks for the moment (of course, there's always the strong possibility of some of those in CA 10 and W 33-35, but we'll see). 
HoM tie-ins can be separated in two groups : those who tie-in through their main characters with the main mini, and those who don't really interact with the overall plot and won't be much of a problem (Mutopia X 1-4, UXM, Exiles, NXM:AX, C&D 17). 
So, on to the problematic ones : 
- SM:HOM seems easy enough : between HOM 1 and HOM 5 (hoping the statu quo is restored at the end of SM:HOM) 
- FF:HOM is probably the same (between HOM 1 and HOM 6, where the people surrounding Doom do not look like the FF at all ; probably before HOM 5, according to Polaris's costume change). 
- IM:HOM : between HOM 2 (Pym has not informed Tony of his genome-mapping plan yet) and HOM 6 (because of the Magneto appearance - what is he doing in Chicago ?). 
- Pulse 10 : after HOM 5 (Hawkeye leaves) and after Exiles 69 (where the sentinel monument is still intact) 
- Hulk 86 has a hologram of Magneto on the last page, so 83-86 are pre-HOM 6 
- BP4 7 is the most problematic, since it has an obvious continuity error (what is Nightcrawler doing there, in the wrong costume ? He's tied up in the main miniseries from HOM 3 onwards...). Storm's appearances are also a bit jumbled ("yesterday" in NY at Dazzler's show, in Paris in HOM 2, back in Wakanda in the present day, and then seen in HOM 6 - by the way, is that Namor with her ?). The "corrosive weather patterns" mentionned in HOM 6 may be related to BP4 7 ; the Helicarrier flight between NY and Genosha gives Storm enough time to go with Namor to Magneto's reception, but why would she do that ? 
Then, Doom's appearance in BP4 7 does not help placing it before or after his attempted coup in HOM:FF (I'd say just before), and Sunfire seems at odds with his portrayal in NXM:AX 17 (or maybe he turns on Magneto because of SHIELD's enquiries in that title ?). 

Well, I sure hope it will make more sense when everything is published, but at least this gives you a few elements to think about.

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Posted: 21 Sep 2005 08:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You're saying that BP4 #7 occurs after BP4 #8-9? 

I'd buy it, if necessary. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 07:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Taking BLACK PANTHER out of sequence may in fact be necessary, because the December solicitations reveal that the *next* X-MEN arc is a tie-in to Decimation, which is supposed to be the immediate fall-out of HOUSE OF M. It may turn out that "Wild Kingdom" has to be a pre-HOUSE OF M story.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 05:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Not like we haven't broken the rules for BP4 anyway. 

"Oh what the hell -- throw the first six issues out of continuity, and put #7 after #9." 

I LOVE YOU REGGIE HUDLIN 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 06:39 pm    
By Somebody

Well, it's not as if the writer himself cares about continuity - after all, it's all "made-up" anyway 

http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?rpl=050828231155

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 09:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, if Hudlin can play fast and loose with the "rules" and chuck any sense of continuity aside -- basically, a "who cares, it's all made-up funny books" attitude -- then his stories get booted off the MCP island, IMHO. 

I'll consider issues #8 and #9, simply because they tie into canonical X-Men issues. That reference to issues #1-6 in issue #8 -- fuggedaboudit. The story that T'Challa discusses is not as shown in the non-canonical issues #1-6, it's a canonical MU version of issues #1-6, set in the recent past, with many details being different, including the Russian Radioactive Man and the mysterious Black Knight -- no mention of them specifically in issue #8, so voila...they don't exist. 

And does issue #7 really happen anyway? If not, there's no out-of-sequence matter with which to deal.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 10:04 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Hey, if Hudlin can play fast and loose with the "rules" and chuck any sense of continuity aside -- basically, a "who cares, it's all made-up funny books" attitude -- then his stories get booted off the MCP island, IMHO. 
<<<


ALL of his stories?? His run on MK: Spider-man has been much better than the crap we're seeing in Black Panther, IMHO. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 23 Sep 2005 06:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
ALL of his stories?? 
<<<

Not necessarily...just those that he's admitted to making up wholecloth with no regard for established continuity -- you know, the Hudlinverse. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Oct 2005 11:45 am    
By Somebody

Just a minor point - Hulk #87 contains the first direct lead-out of HoM (the other post-HoM stories have all been nominally so at most). While, obviously, we don't get any Big Picture stuff about what's happened to the mutants, etc, Banner wakes up, still in bed in the Australian mansion he lived in in HoM with no memory of the event itself, and we get a mention that a lot of SHIELD agents are in a similar position - they're far away from where they should be with no memory of how they got there.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 06 Oct 2005 02:10 pm    Post subject: WING, PROFESSOR
By Ant-Man

The first name of Professor Wing, Colleen Wing's father, is LEE
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 15

Posted: 07 Oct 2005 06:11 pm    Post subject: Baron Strucker question
By Enda80

ST 158-FB 
ST 158 (9:6 - 12:3) 
S-M 76-FB-BTS 
DD:FFG-FB 
X&AF2 1 
X&AF2 2 
NF3 20-BTS 
NF3 21 
NF3 22 
NF3 23 
CA 387/2 
NF3 25 

Has it been revealed that the Strucker in X-Men/Alpha Flight was an LMD?

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 10 Oct 2005 06:10 am    Post subject: Punisher Man Named Frank Canon?
By Enda80

This one-shot is listed as non-cannon. 

However, Frank did receive an entry in the Marvel Knights Handbook, with no mention of this story taking place on an alternate Earth. So, officially this story took place on Earth-616. 

Now you may say "Wait a minute, a man named Frank Castle at the turn of the century sees his family killed and decides to seek revenge, taking the name of the Punisher? Isn't that a bit too coincidental?". Actually Frank was never called the Punisher by anyone in story, nor was his surname revealed, so the only major coincidence is that he decided to wear a skull symbol on his chest, not an uncommon idea (anyone ever heard of the Black Terror? or Destroyer). So this is no more outr than the modern era Captain America having a 1700's ancestor who dressed up in a costume (pace Hellfire Club and SOL), or there being an Old West villain who called himself the Red Raven. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/frankamn.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2005 11:39 am    
By jephyork
Director

Did any characters in it appear in any other book? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2005 01:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

If he doesn't receive a codename, and we don't know his last name, and no one therein appears in any other books, then I don't see how anything from the book ever makes its way into the Project. 

But I see what you're saying. Regardless of what the Appendix says, if the Handbook treats it as canon, and there's no internal reason here why it can't be canon, then it should be removed from the non-canon list. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2005 02:31 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Not the Handbook, but the Marvel Knights Encyclopaedia. Same difference, though. 

In fairness, "A Man Named Frank" is no more ludicrous a concept than Steve Rogers, the Revolutionary War Captain America, and HE'S canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2005 10:22 pm    
By JLH

Chuck Dixon and John Buscema fully completed (as far as I heard years and years back) a sequel to it, which has never been published. Ya'd think between the 50 or 60 one shots they do of Punny, they'd fine time to print it. Not that it'd help his position on the guide any, but still.

			*	*	*

http://home.gate.net/~shield007/history/missing.htm 

There are other great unreleased stories as well. 

http://www.dixonverse.net/bibliography/unpub.htm 

MARVEL KNIGHTS #16 
A western with versions of Castle, Johnny Blaze, Black Widow, Daredevil, Dagger, and Dr. Doom. 

A PUNISHER WAR ZONE arc. 
A western tale of Frank Castle in which he heads south of the border in search of Pancho Villa just steps ahead of Lt George Patton. Art by Russ Heath. 

Of course, just because they were never published, does not mean that they cannot be cited by the Handbooks or Encyclopedias. AFter all, The Lost Silver Surfer Advenenture was. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthmoeb01.htm#Fourth

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2005 07:49 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Of course, just because they were never published, does not mean that they cannot be cited by the Handbooks or Encyclopedias. 
<<<

Of course, the Handbooks and Encyclopedias can also cite video games, Holiday greeting cards, and refrigerator magnets, if they want, but we don't. 


watching: american morning

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Thread 17

Posted: 11 Oct 2005 10:35 am    Post subject: Uncanny X-Men Annual #18
By Megalictis

This story is set during Sabretooth's captivity at the mansion and Jean Grey is present. My question is this: does this story take place - 

A. before X-Men #30 (in which Jean and Scott leave the mansion for thier honeymoon, 

or 

B. after Uncanny X-Men #318 (when Jean & Scott return to the mansion)? 

And what piece of information is used to determine this?

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2005 05:27 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

From memory, I believe this story has to be after the marriage but before they leave on honeymoon, due to Shadowcat's costume, or something along those lines.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 18

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 04:42 pm    Post subject: Chillers canon? Mutant Agenda?
By Enda80

Are The Mutant Agenda and Chillers canon?

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 05:11 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

SPIDER-MAN: MUTANT AGENDA was a tie-in with the Spider-Man newspaper strip, as I recall, in which case it isn't mainstream canon. (In fact, didn't the book have something weird like gaps in the art where you could paste in the cartoon strips?) 

I have no idea what you mean by CHILLERS, unless you're talking about the mid-70s series MARVEL CHILLERS, which was certainly canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 05:29 pm    
By Ant-Man

Spider-Man: Mutant Agenda #0 was completely blank panels that you were supposed to fill with the newspaper strips. The rest of the series read like normal issues. 

I think these are the "Chillers" that were referred to: 

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/51472716100.1.GIF 

I think there were 5 different ones.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:07 pm    
By SeanCurtin

As far as I can tell, the 1990s Marvel Chillers books were retellings of older stories, and as such wouldn't be canonical. If you're asking about the second Giant-Size Chillers series (the horror anthology, not the one-shot that introduced Lilith), the answer is probably "yes, but it doesn't matter, because it never interacted with the Marvel Universe". 

-Sean

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 10:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I've got one of those "Chillers" issues ("The Thing in the Glass Case", starring Wolverine and Jubilee), and as far as I can tell it's not a retelling of anything. 

The problem with it is, it's a text story with pictures. It's basically a kids' book that's the size of a comic. 

Now, around here the novels aren't canon -- but I'm not sure if that rule applies to all text-with-pictures comics. What did we decide on "Elektra and Wolverine: the Redeemer"? 

If "E&W:R" turned out to be canon -- or at least, turned out not to have been automatically booted by virtue of being an illustrated text comic -- then we'd need to decide if "Chillers" is a(non-canon) kids' book cleverly disguised as a comic -- or a (potentially canon) illustrated text comic. 

As for "Spider-Man: the Mutant Agenda" -- the #0 issue was basically a scrapbook, and when filled it told the newspaper strip version of the story. Issues #1-3 told a different version of the same story. Presumably that's the Marvel Universe version. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 12:03 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Now, around here the novels aren't canon -- but I'm not sure if that rule applies to all text-with-pictures comics. What did we decide on "Elektra and Wolverine: the Redeemer"? 
<<<

Were the Chillers books published by Marvel, as opposed to being licensed by Marvel and published by someone else? 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 03:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

ELEKTRA & WOLVERINE: THE REDEEMER isn't a comic at all, but a serialised novella with illustrations. However, there are precedents for treating text pieces as canon (Marvel UK's early Night Raven material, for example). Nonetheless, as I recall, REDEEMER was non-canon by virtue of contradicting established continuity all over the place, in such a way as to suggest that it was meant to be freestanding.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 04:39 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I've got one of those "Chillers" issues ("The Thing in the Glass Case", starring Wolverine and Jubilee), and as far as I can tell it's not a retelling of anything. 
<<<

Hm. Some of the others are; at least, I know that the Frightful Four one is a retelling. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2005 05:22 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Not to hijack the thread -- but what did REDEEMER contradict? 

And a quick check of the indicia reveals that CHILLERS was indeed published by Marvel. Hmm, guess they should be analyzed for canonicity, huh? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2005 02:20 am    
By Enda80

Okay, one of the Chillers is retelling of Hulk II#431-432. With an additional scene detailing the police commissioner and the mobster who hiired him. 

The others may have a problem as they introduce new members of the Van Helsing family. 

Pages 46-47 of Blood Storm 
"The Van Helsings were all vampire hunters, except for Abraham's grandson Willem. Willem gave up the family's profession and fled to Wisconsin. Willem was your grandfather, Dana". Dana has an aunt named Lisa.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2005 03:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

As I recall, REDEEMER gave a completely conflicting account of how Wolverine and Elektra first met.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Oct 2005 06:17 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The others may have a problem as they introduce new members of the Van Helsing family. 
<<<

Since when is "introducing new characters" a problem? 


Quote: 
>>>
As I recall, REDEEMER gave a completely conflicting account of how Wolverine and Elektra first met. 
<<<

Eh, that's not a canon-buster to me. We've had plenty of characters who've "first met", then "first met" again in a story published later but taking place earlier. Cable and Prof. X come to mind. 

Where was the original first meeting between Wolvie and Elektra? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Oct 2005 10:32 am    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Where was the original first meeting between Wolvie and Elektra? 
<<<

I want to say the end of Wolverine #101 (although Elektra had been hanging around since the end of #100 and during the UXM issue that tied in), but I can't swear to that.

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Posted: 05 Oct 2005 02:28 pm    
By Enda80

Well, as one person put at http://www.marvunapp.com/ on Redeemer 


"I would love to place this story further back in chronology. Never once is Logan referred to as Wolverine, or even Weapon X, for that matter. However, he does have his metal claws and references their creation, so it has to be post-Weapon X. Elektra doesn't name anyone either, and it would seem to be perfect for placing it shortly after she first broke free from the Hand, perhaps even before Elektra: Assassin (and sometime after Logan gained his metal claws, but before joining the X-Men)...except for one small detail. When Avery mentions how many scars Elektra has, Elektra places her hand on her chest, just under her ribcage and feels his most significant scar. You can write that off as metaphorical and that she was referencing heartbreak, but it seems clear that they were actually referencing the scar she received when Bullseye stabbed her in the chest and killed her. If it's after that, then it's after she was resurrected, and after she left the Chaste due to be tainted by reabsorbing her dark aspects from Erynys. Since Logan does not know Elektra in this story, it has to take place in the narrow window between Daredevil I#325 and Wolverine II#100. 
...Unless anyone can come up with a better explanation, then that's how I'll have to write it."

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Posted: 05 Oct 2005 10:53 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Enda80 wrote: 
The others may have a problem as they introduce new members of the Van Helsing family. 

Pages 46-47 of Blood Storm 
>>>
"The Van Helsings were all vampire hunters, except for Abraham's grandson Willem. Willem gave up the family's profession and fled to Wisconsin. Willem was your grandfather, Dana". Dana has an aunt named Lisa. 
<<<

I don't see how this is a problem. IIRC, it was never stated that Abraham Van Helsing only had one child. We've just only seen one such offspring to date, that one being Rachel's late father (or her late mother, if her mother kept her maiden name upon marriage - or if her parents never married - and then passed the surname to Rachel). One would imagine that an adult cousin would have been considered as a foster parent for Rachel before Quincy Harker, but if the cousin wasn't a vampire hunter, then he might have considered Quincy to be a safer guardian than himself. 

-Sean

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 10:02 am    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, here's all the "Chillers" I could find: 

Blood Storm 
Frightful Four 
the Thing in the Glass Case 
Shades of Green Monsters 
Saga of the Alien Costume 
Spider-Man and the Mark of the Man-Wolf 
the Pryde and Terror of the X-Men 

Questions: 

1. Am I missing any? 

2. Can anyone put these into publication order for me? "Blood Storm" was Oct. 96, and "Glass Case" was March 97 ... anyone know the rest? 

3. Which are retellings of older stories? So far on this thread people have said that the "Frightful Four" and "Green Monsters" ones are ... "Saga of the Alien Costume" sure *sounds* like a retelling ... and I think I saw somewhere that "Pryde and Terror" is a retelling of UX #143. "Blood Storm" and "Glass Case" are NOT retellings ... which leaves "Mark of the Man-Wolf". 

Can anyone shed some light on the "Man-Wolf" issue, and/or *confirm* that the others are all retellings? 

Thanks... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 11:52 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Can anyone shed some light on the "Man-Wolf" issue, and/or *confirm* that the others are all retellings? 
<<<

I can shed some light, although it's not a definitive answer. "Mark of the Man-Wolf" was the title of ASM 124, the first appearance of Man-Wolf. The story itself didn't have a title, but that's what's on the cover. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 02:08 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So, "Saga of the Alien Costume" AND "Mark of the Man-Wolf" both "sure sound like retellings". 

Thanks ... anyone else, any insight? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 02:21 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I don't have a copy anymore to triple check but the Frightful Four issue was a retelling of the Frightful Four origin to my recollection.

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 02:41 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Doing a little more looking, I found the years of publication (but couldn't find anything more specific), and which stories were being retold: 

Blood Storm - 1996 (UX 159) 
Frightful Four - 1996 (FF 36) 
Pryde and Terror of the X-Men - 1996 (UX 143) 
Saga of the Alien Costume - 1996 (ASM 256-259) 
Shades of Green Monsters - 1997 (H2 431-432) 
Spider-Man and the Mark of the Man-Wolf - 1996 (ASM 124-125) 
Thing in the Glass Case - 1997 

Looking for more precise publication dates, I found this: [url] 
http://www.sugarbombs.com/genx/issues.htm[/url], which places The Thing in the Glass Case chronologically after GENX 40. 

-Sean

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 04:10 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Waitaminnit -- "Blood Storm" is a retelling? Of UX #159, the issue where Storm is bitten by Dracula? "The Thing in the Glass Case" makes extensive reference to "Blood Storm", and the things it references -- the introduction of Lisa and Dana Van Helsing, appearances by Psylocke and Cannonball (and *no* mention of Storm when Dana thinks back to the X-Men she met) -- it doesn't sound *anything* like UX #159. 

I'd better track down a copy of this ... it sounds to me like it could be a new story that's merely *similar* to UX #159. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 08:31 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Could be. I'm going by online references here. 

-Sean

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 09:20 pm    
By Enda80

Blood Storm - 1996 (UX 159) 
It has as a back-up a reprint of UX 159.

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 09:40 pm    
By jephyork
Director

John, do you own the issue? Can you confirm that the main story is all-new? 

And -- ugh -- if some of these issues contain back-up reprints of other comics, and the "online references" that people like Sean have found are merely listing the backups, and NOT confirming that the main story is a retelling... 

...we're gonna have to check these all out firsthand. Sigh. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2005 05:46 am    
By Enda80

I own the issue and confirm the first story was all-new.

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 07:10 pm    
By Jason Doty

Jeph!, 

I have The Pryde and Terror of the X-Men. 

This is a retelling of Uncanny X-Men no.143, with added elements that do not fit within continuity. 

First Kitty goes skating with Colossus and Magik in the begining of the story. (A grown Magik does not appear untill later around UX 160) 

It has panels of UX 143 throughout as well as some from UX 168.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2005 07:36 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason, 

I've edited a pretty serious spelling error in your previous post. I don't think Kitty does what you said, and while Illyana's certainly more willing to experiment, I don't think she'd be on board with it, either. 


watching: larry king

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 10:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I MUST HAVE THIS ISSUE. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Oct 2005 06:33 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I've edited a pretty serious spelling error in your previous post. I don't think Kitty does what you said, and while Illyana's certainly more willing to experiment, I don't think she'd be on board with it, either. 
<<<

When I read the original unedited post, I just assumed that Kitty and Illyana were into improvisational jazz. 

-Sean

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Posted: 11 Oct 2005 07:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Errrr...exactly. I don't think they would do that. 

Illyana might try improvisational jazz once, just to see what it was like, but not Kitty. 

Actually, no way would Illyana, either. 


watching: anaheim v. chicago

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Posted: 11 Oct 2005 07:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Piotr would videotape their improvising and sell it to Logan. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Oct 2005 08:15 pm    
By Enda80

If the Hostess ads had continued on, we might have seen Felonious Monk. 

(thank you, Mike Nelson). 

The Shades of Green Monsters seems to have a similar approach. One of the characters, the crimelord who forces the policeman to clear the sewers, also was in a prose novel by Jason Henderson.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2005 09:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, THAT brought the fun to a screeching halt. 

Enda -- what? 

"Shades of Green Monsters" takes a similar approach -- as WHAT? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Oct 2005 12:26 am    
By Enda80

Shades of Green Monsters takes a similar approach to this Pryde chiller, namely of retelling an existing story with new scenes. 

Oh, Felonious Monk, 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelonious_Monk 
was a scat singer. Felonius rhymes with Thelonius. A felon is of course a criminal. Anyway, that is the same sort of lame pun the Hostess ads went for. 

All this talk of improvisational jazz reminded me of him.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2005 06:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

Funny, I think all this talk of improvisational jazz was making the rest of us think about something else entirely... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 12 Oct 2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Annie Christopher
By scottandrewhutchins

Annie Christopher, a friend of Namorita, appears in M/TIO #4 and #8; only the latter giving her surname. She is not listed. Are these her only appearances? When she appears in M/TIO #4, it seems like readers are expected to be familiar with her.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 10 Oct 2005 01:02 pm    Post subject: Magik 1-4 Corrections
By Jason Doty

The opening of Magik 1 and the ending in MagiK 4 are of Magik recalling her time in Limbo on her 14 birthday, which should be placed just prior to New Mutants 14. 

So should'nt the characters that appear in this story be listed with a FB behind them?

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 02:06 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

A couple of questions first: 

Does anyone want to check the X-Men Index entry from UX 160? Does that entry indicate that Magik is continuing from a flashback? 

Does the series "read" as a flashback? Is the story narrated by Illyana, or an omniscient narrator? 

Is is possible for the entire series to be a flashback? By that, I mean, do we see any events that Illyana wasn't privy to? 


watching: situation room

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 07:21 pm    
By Jason Doty

The issues are narrarated by Illyana, but there are also scences that she is not privy too. 

The opening in issue 1 and the ending in issue 4 are definatly the present, I would think that makes the whole story a flashback, regardless of the info we see that she is not privy too.

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Posted: 11 Oct 2005 04:28 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Tend to agree with that. If the main story isn't a flashback, then what is the framing sequence? We don't have a code for "flash forward." 

(There might be something to be said for having a code for "framing sequence" for stories like this, but it's probably unnecessary.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Oct 2005 11:50 pm    
By Jason Doty

I'm not sure I follow you, Paul. 

MGK 1-4 were printed after UX 160, not at the same time. 

The framing sequence wasn't a look in the future, but Magik remembering the past. 

Her entry should read as such 

Magik/ Illyana Rasputin 
....... 
UX 160 
MGK 1-FB 
MGK 2-FB 
MGK 3-FB 
MGK 4-FB 
UX 160 
........ 
X&M 4 
MGK 1 
MGK 2-BTS (She is narrarating the story) 
MGK 3-BTS (She is narrarating the story) 
MGK 4 
NM 14 
......... 

I'll go through the issues more thuroughly and do MCP style listings for all the characters, because several of the New Mutants appear at the end in the distance as well as some X-Men getting behind the scenes. 

* Also this is just going by memory so don't jump on this. 
Is the Illyana that Magik saved durring Inferno, the Illyana that the X-Men (The ones from another universe that were there prior to the 616 X-Men's arrival) already in limbo failed to save. In other words, the Illyana that died of the legacy virus was actually another universes Illyana? 

Hope thats not too confusing.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2005 07:35 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Is the Illyana that Magik saved durring Inferno, the Illyana that the X-Men (The ones from another universe that were there prior to the 616 X-Men's arrival) already in limbo failed to save. In other words, the Illyana that died of the legacy virus was actually another universes Illyana? 
<<<

That's what I choose to believe. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 12 Oct 2005 02:12 pm    
By Jason Doty

Here are the other MCP style listings 

Storm/ Ororo Munroe (Limbo) 

UX 160 
MGK 1-FB 
MGK 2-FB 
MGK 3-FB 
MGK 4-FB 


Belasco 
. 
UX 160 
MGK 1-FB 
MGK 2-FB 
MGK 3-FB 
MGK 4-FB 
KZ3 28 
. 


Cat/ Katherine Pryde (Limbo) 

MGK 1-FB 
MGK 2-FB 
MGK 3-FB 

Sym 

UX 160 
MGK 2-FB 
MGK 3-FB 
MGK 4-FB 
NM 14 
 


Nightcrawler/ Kurt Wagner (Limbo) 

UX 160 
MGK 2-FB 

Cannonball II/ Sam Guthrie 
. 
X&M 4 
MGK 4 
NM 14 
.. 

Mirage II/ Danielle Moonstar 
. 
X&M 4 
MGK 4 
NM 14 
.. 

Sunspot/ Roberto da Costa 
.. 
X&M 4 
MGK 4 
NM 14 
.. 

Wolfsbane/ Rahne Sinclair 
.. 
X&M 4 
MGK 4 
NM 14 
.. 

Magma/ Amara Aquila/ Alison Crestmere 
. 
X&M 4 
MGK 4 
NM 14 
.

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Thread 21

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 01:42 pm    Post subject: Jennifer Kale
By scottandrewhutchins

GR3 77 
GR3 78 
GR3 79 
GR3 80 
GR3 81 
GR3 82 
GR3 83 
GR3 86 
GR3 88 
GR3 89 


Can anyone confirm that she did NOT appear in 84, 85, or 87?

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 02:17 pm    
By Ant-Man

*CONFIRMED* 
She does not appear in those issues.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 22

Posted: 12 Oct 2005 08:02 pm    Post subject: Flashbacks in the House of M
By jephyork
Director

Over in the Watch Forums, Jason Doty was alerting us to X-Men appearances in a House of M crossover issue, and said... 

Quote: 
>>>
Wolverine no.34 (Mystique, Wolverine-FB) 
<<<

And I replied with: 


Quote: 
>>>
...You understand that all HoM FBs are phony, created by the Scarlet Witch, and never actually "happened", right? 
<<<

That of course touched off a debate -- which I split into a new topic over here. Enjoy -- and lend your two cents! 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 14 Oct 2005 03:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 12 Oct 2005 10:13 pm    
By Jason Doty

We are going to have to find a way to list them and also a starting point from which we say everything prior to this point is a fabrication. Any suggestions? 

How about the minute Spider-Man wakes up at the end of HoM 1 

I think a () around any issue from the crossover that story predates HoM 1 should get this and following the issue HoMFB 

Example (Not correct listing, but you'll understand) 

Wolverine 

...... 
UX 4000 
A5 60 
Hom 1 
(W2 34-HoMFB) 
Hom 2 
UX 4001 
....... 

What do you think?

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 07:35 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
We are going to have to find a way to list them and also a starting point from which we say everything prior to this point is a fabrication. 
<<<

This discussion doesn't belong here, but... 

If they're phony flashbacks, why do we have to find a way to list them? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 08:22 am    
By Jason Doty

The nature of how the 616 has been changed is not very specific, This does not seem to be an illussion, it seems that the Scarlet Witch has altered reality, but that does not mean all that has come before it is negated. 

Even if they are not real, they should be listed untill it is explained exactly how they have been changed. 

Keeping the flashbacks in between the point in HoM 1 where the world goes "white" and Spider-Man wakes up makes sense. It adds to the completeness of the project as well as alowing for the unknown nature of the change without interupting any continuity that comes before it. 

It would be ashame to disclude the series flashbacks, but include the HoM 1-8. Why would we only list parts of the Captain America issue or Wolverine issues. 

Feel free to move this to the proper forum. I was just trying to address Jeph!'s sort of question.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 12:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Why would we only list parts of the Captain America issue or Wolverine issues. 
<<<

Because we do it all the time, for "phony" flashbacks. If a character is clearly making up the events of a flashback out of whole cloth in the latest Hulk, we don't include those flashbacks either, even though we include the rest of the issue. I haven't read the books yet. I'm just wondering why we would try to list "phony" flashbacks. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 12:48 pm    
By Jason Doty

Let me be more specific: 
Since we do not completely understand the nature of how the Scarlet Witch transformed the 616 reality and the fact that characters have had adventures in the past in this new order of things does not mean they are "phony." 

It just means that they occured after the Scarlet Witch altered the 616. These alterations do not negate the past prior to HoM 1, but clearly happen prior to the main HoM event. Therefor any flashback in a HoM book should occur between HoM 1 when the "white" light hit and Spider-Man awakening in the newly transformed 616. 

Those who are speculating that they are fake or "phony," are possibly upset because they believe this series is altering past chronologies, thats not the case. With the evidence thus far we can just assume all these events took place after the "white" light and wait for the end of the series. 

I hope that was a bit clearer.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 05:03 pm    
By  jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Those who are speculating that they are fake or "phony," are possibly upset because they believe this series is altering past chronologies 
<<<

No. That's not what I believe, and I'm not "upset". I don't have an MCP agenda -- I'm just stating what I took from the comics. 

It's obvious from reading HoM that the Scarlet Witch DIDN'T alter past chronologies -- at all. 

She's altered the present, and altered people's memories so that they all remember a communal phony world history -- but when Wolverine "woke up" in HoM #2, for example, or when any of the heroes were zapped by Layla Miller -- they realized that they were living in an illusion. In PULSE #10, Hawkeye was able to see "through" the illusions Wanda had layered onto the world, seeing a different newspaper article than Kat Farrell saw, for example. And he hadn't even been zapped by Layla, had he? 

There haven't been any flashbacks in any of the HoM books written by Bendis, you'll notice. Flashbacks have only been shown in other books -- by writers who are possibly unclear on the concept. 

You're suggesting placing them between panels of HoM #1 -- compressing them into that period of time between the white light and Spider-Man seeing Gwen Stacy. Are you seriously suggesting that Wanda dialed time back thirty years, compressed thirty years of a new history into a second, then let time continue in its new path? 

No. It's an illusion. An illusion that people like Logan, Layla and Hawkeye can see through. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 07:16 pm    
By Jason Doty

I'm saying that, yes, all of those flahbacks occur between those panels. Wolverine remembers his past life because that is what he wanted most and the other two who seem to see through this illussion are constructs of Wanda's. Now as far as I know Wanda does'nt cast illusions, but controls probabilities. 

She changed the world not cast an illussion over it. What she creates becomes real. Those individuals are remembering the past that was, not seeing through her illusion. 

I was'nt accusing you of having a MCP agenda, but suggesting that others have shown a great amount of concern over this cross-over and it seems unfounded. Obviously we will have to wait for its conclusion to know for sure. 

Jeph! wrote 
>>>
...You understand that all HoM FBs are phony, created by the Scarlet Witch, and never actually "happened", right?  
<<<

and 
Quote: 
>>>
Flashbacks have only been shown in other books -- by writers who are possibly unclear on the concept.  
<<<

Your assuming the writers are unclear? Then the editors must be making the same mistake and then Marvel for publishing them? 

I understand errors are made, but on a company wide crossover with this much hype? I doubt all of them got the same bad info. 

We will have to agree to disagree on this topic. To change the present the Scarlet Witch would have to alter past probabilities. Therefor I think my argument makes a bit more sense, but I may be proven wrong. We'll have to wait and see.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 09:14 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Dear God, Jason. 

The "Age of Apocalypse" crossover changed the present by altering the past -- creating an all-new past. Do we list those "all-new flashbacks" between X #41 and X:PRIME? No. We consider it a separate universe, created thanks to time travel. 

(And, remember -- even though the recent AoA mini confirmed that it's now a separate universe, we considered it that way BEFORE the mini. Even though THE ORIGINAL AOA BOOKS went out of their way to tell us that the 616 universe had been wiped out and replaced by this one ... we still considered it a *separate universe*.) 

If you're going to suggest that Wanda created the House of M world by "changing past probabilities" -- changing the past, in other words -- then by our previous methods we should consider it a *separate universe* too -- branching off the regular timeline at whatever mysterious point Wanda first altered. 

As for your suggestion that, since the editors allowed the stories to be published, they therefore MUST be telling us that Wanda changed the past -- did you consider that the editors simply feel that the characters are remembering phony pasts? 


Quote: 
>>>
To change the present the Scarlet Witch would have to alter past probabilities. 
<<<

Why? Aside from the one time Immortus supercharged her abilities, her power has *never* been shown to work this way. In fact, currently in HoM her power is quite obviously able to change the present *without* altering the past. Hawkeye shot her with an arrow -- she made it vanish. She didn't "alter past probabilities" so that it never struck her, she just made it vanish. Magneto greivously wounded Quicksilver. She healed him -- not be "altering the past" so he was never wounded -- but just by making him well. 

It stands to reason that since her powers work that way -- things simply become the way she wishes them -- that she could quite easily remake the entire world WITHOUT having to "alter past probabilities". 

Also, please remember that part of the creation of the HoM world involved taking over the abilities of Prof. X to read the mind of everyone on earth and give most mutants their hearts' desires. If you're looking for an in-story explanation for why everyone has false memories, and you won't accept "Wanda's power did it" -- will you accept "Wanda supercharged Xavier's power and made HIM do it"? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 11:03 pm    
By Jason Doty

Jeph! 
What I'm suggesting is that since we don't know exactly what has transpired and are more than likely not going to get a straight answer on what happened, my suggested method confines the flashbacks to an area within HoM that allows us to list the exact chronologies of these characters for the users of the site to follow. That is the purpose. 

Since the characters current actions are defined by these "fabricated memories" it helps the user of the site follow the story. 

I realize your argument is as strong as usual and I agree this is a combination of Wanda and Xavier. Your logic in these matters and ability to utilize past precident superceeds my abilities, and I'm more than willing to conceed to your point. 

I'm just not making assumptions of what the editors and writers were thinking. 

By not including the flashbacks users might not realize what happened to their favorite characters durring the HoM storyline. Were not talking about one individual getting false memories, but a whole planet. 

I'm not against your way of viewing what happened, but I'm completely against throwing out whole chunks of the story that helps people who utilize this site to follow chronologies. 

My original suggestion was how to list them, and I'm still reserving judgement untill the end of the series. 

Assuming that you or others have the right answer without debate is as bad as blindly following the Official Indexes that have been proven to be riddled with errors. 

How about moving our debate to the proper forum so others might way in. 

Remember this is nothing personal, just a friendly discussion on how to address this issue. 

Your argument is much stronger than mine, but I'm arguing for completeness rather than proving this one way or another.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 06:32 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'm just not making assumptions of what the editors and writers were thinking. 
<<<

Oh, sure you did -- you assumed that since the books were published with flashbacks, the editors MUST be under the impression that Wanda literally changed the past. 


Quote: 
>>>
By not including the flashbacks users might not realize what happened to their favorite characters durring the HoM storyline. 
<<<

It's not the MCP's mandate, or responsibility, to tell people what happened to characters during storylines. It's our mandate to list every actual appearance in chronological order. 


Quote: 
>>>
Were not talking about one individual getting false memories, but a whole planet. 
<<<

What's the difference? We still don't list implanted memories. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm completely against throwing out whole chunks of the story that helps people who utilize this site to follow chronologies. 
<<<

The flashbacks don't help anyone "follow chronologies", though -- they help people understand the *mindsets* of the characters in their new lives. And, again, it's not the MCP's job to help people understand character mindsets. It's our job to list every actual appearance. That's it. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm arguing for completeness rather than proving this one way or another. 
<<<

You always argue for completeness. But until you DO prove that the flashbacks are real -- we shouldn't put them in just for the sake of "completeness uber alles". It's completely counter-intuitive to place a flashback that "occured twenty-some years ago" in-between pages of a book that occurs in the present day. 

By the way -- in my previous post, I said that if Wanda did change the past, this new world should be considered a divergent dimension. But over in Exiles, they refer to it as "an altered Earth-616". 

Wanda simply *can't* retroactively change the past, and keep the effects in our dimension. It's not in her power. She either (1) changed the past and created an alternate world, or (b) changed the world, but DIDN'T change the past. And since we've got proof that we're still on Earth-616 ... well, that narrows the choices down to one. 

I'll split this thread off when I get some spare time. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Steve Gerber characters
By scottandrewhutchins

Many of Steve's fans are compiling a list of every character he created for Marvel. Many are probably too minor for inclusion in chronologyproject, but would that list be appropriate here? It's seems kind of arbitrary which characters, say from Avengers Spotlight #0-36 made it in and which didn't. 

Scott

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 12:04 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

scottandrewhutchins wrote: 
>>>
It's seems kind of arbitrary which characters, say from Avengers Spotlight #0-36 made it in and which didn't. 
<<<

We admit as much in the FAQ, where we say it's just a judgment call. 


watching: life from

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 01:48 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

The Gerber She-Hulk run has not been thoroughly examined as yet. 

Name: Characters Created by Steve Gerber 
Table Description: A list of characters created by Steve Gerber 
Character Name First Appearance Month/Year of First Appearance 
2 other punks in Chevy with Prince Charming and Slice Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
6 dead (killed by Stone Perfs in Chevy) Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
6 on the critical list (hurt by Stone Perfs in Chevy) Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
"Blue-Suited Crum-Bum" (giving the Fantasticar a $50 ticket) Marvel Two-in-One #9 May, 1975 
"Mac" (Cotton Candy Vendor) Marvel Two-in-One #4 July, 1974 
"The Architecture Is Greek" Lady Defenders #33 March, 1976 
"The Man" (new, evil identity of Kerwin J. Broderick) Daredevil #103 Sept, 1973 
"economics is an art" man Cloak and Dagger III #15 December 1990 
"kamikaze kids" Marvel Two-in-One #9 May, 1975 
17th Precinct Cops (2 speaking) Daredevil #110 June, 1974 
2-2-2-2 (Tutu-Tutu) Howard the Duck #23 
A.E. Pop Syke Howard the Duck 6/6/77 
ASPCA veterinarian Defenders #37 
Abdul Mameluke, the elder Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Abdul Mameluke, the younger Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Abu Ho Dadi Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Abunda Dunt Harboloy Crazy Magazine #5 
Abyss Crazy Magazine #12 
Actor playing Adolf Hitler Marvel Two-in-One #3 
Actor playing Captain America Marvel Two-in-One #3 
Actor playing a slave Marvel Two-in-One #3 
Adam Idawa Crazy Magazine #2 
Adelle Farmerdaughter Crazy Magazine #3 
Agent Marsden Avengers #178 
Agent Stern Avengers #178 
Akar Giant-Size Man-Thing #1 
Albert Manners Marvel Spotlight #18 
Alberto Hooey Nookie Crazy Magazine #5 
Alejandro Man-Thing 7 
Aleta Defenders #29 
Ali Wazoo Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Alice Omega the Unknown #6 
Alice (coffee shop waitress) Defenders #20 
Alice Bowie Crazy Magazine #3 
Alice Rimes Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
All-Night Party (political organization) Howard the Duck #7 
All-Night Party Chairman Howard the Duck #7 
Allatou Marvel Spotlight #18 
Allen Calley Giant-Size Man-Thing #5 
Allex "Dan" Crandall Marvel Spotlight #16 
Allison Hayes Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Alvin (gnosticologist) Howard the Duck v1#11 
Alvin Denton Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Amber Grant Omega The Unknown # 1 
Ambitious Badoon Marvel Two-in-One #5 
Amos Duncan Shanna the She-Devil #5 
Amos Ferret Defenders #22 
Amy (receptionist at Erickson's publishing house; shot in back by Nobody Anybody Knows) Dracula Lives! #11 
Amy Pope Howard the Duck #19 
Ananta The Rampaging Hulk #9 
Andrea The Rampaging Hulk #7 
Andrea's Momma The Rampaging Hulk #7 
Andrew "Screw" Phillips, Lieutenant Howard the Duck 2/11/78 
Andr (on the other end of Mr. Six's phone line) Tales of the Zombie #5 
Anduvil of Ogom Star Wars: Tatooine Sojurn 
Andy Kale Adventure into Fear 11 
Angar the Screamer (David Angar) Daredevil #100 June, 1973 
Angelica Momerath Crazy Magazine #8 
Animus Captain America #222 
Anita Guiterrez Avengers Spotlight #31 April 1990 
Annie Christopher (friend to Namorita) Marvel Two-in-One #4 
Another Human Ammunition Depot Howard the Duck #8 
Anton Jejune Crazy Magazine #3 
Antonio Moreno Avengers Spotlight #32 (named in #33) May 1990 
Ape-Shaker Howard the Duck #22 
Arem-Set or Aram-Set Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Ariel the Musician Sub-Mariner #64 
Army Doctor Defenders #32 
Arthur Nordhoff Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Arthur Richmond Defenders #32 
Asem (mentioned) Man-Thing #20 
Ashley "Sandy" Sanders Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
Assassin Defenders #40 
Astrid Josefsen Man-Thing Vol 1 #16 
Atlan The Rampaging Hulk #8 
Augie Slater Avengers Spotlight #31 April 1990 
Aunt Bernadette Winshed Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Aunt Lily Howard the Duck 1/17/78 
Avandalia Cloak & Dagger III #16 February 1991 
Avery Hardheart and the Plasticushion Crazy Magazine #9 
Avram Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Avram's Girlfriend Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Ayla Prentiss Man-Thing 5 
Baby Barely Alive (doll character) Crazy Magazine #5 
Badoon commander Defenders #28 
Bahndbird Howard the Duck v1#1 
Balkatar Adventure into Fear 21 
Bambi Defenders #31 
Bambi (mentioned) Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Bambi's mother Defenders #31 
Baphomet Marvel Spotlight 15 
Barbara (nurse) Howard the Duck #12 
Barbara Clark Vampire Tales 1 
Barge Captain watching TV Marvel Two-in-One #2 
Baron Von Dupnik Man-Thing Vol 1 #16 
Bart Crazy Magazine #14 
Bartender at the Hollywok Canteen Plastic Szechuan Cuisine, Boorbanq Howard the Duck #23 
Basil "Woo Woo" O'Gawannee, Jr. Crazy Magazine #7 
Basil (Woowoo) O'Gawannee Crazy Magazine 7 
Baxter Building Janitor who mistakes Daredevil for Captain America Marvel Two-in-One #3 
Bea Buznit Crazy Magazine #8 
Bear (in comic Howard reads) Howard the Duck v1#5 
Beaver (Pierre Dentifris) Howard the Duck v1#9 
Becky Rainbow Marvel Two-in-One #8 
Bellboy from the Plaza Hotel Howard the Duck v1#9 
Ben the Dog Crazy Magazine #12 
Bernice (mentioned) Iron Man #56 
Bernice's husband Iron Man #56 
Berserk Joe, known in the Adirondacks as "Nancy" Defenders #34 (letters page) 
Bert Marvel Preview 16 
Bessie the Hellcow Giant-Size Man-Thing#5 
Bettina Bizarini Crazy Magazine #8 
Betty Jo Man-Thing 6 
Beverly "Lee" Switzler Howard the Duck #20 (named in #21) 
Beverly Switzler Howard the Duck #1 
Bharph (mentioned) Howard the Duck #24 
Big Budd Marvel Presents #5 
Big Leo Marvel Comics Super Special #1 
Big Mack Howard the Duck #23 
Billy Jerk Crazy Magazine #5 
Billy-Bob Cantrell Crazy Magazine #11 
Biloxi the Girl Barbarian Crazy Magazine #7 
Bishru (invoked deity) first mentioned Sub-Mariner #62 
Black Dog Bus Driver (glad to testify) Howard the Duck #11 
Black Dog Bus Line Ticket Clerk Howard the Duck #11 
Black Eagle Adventure into Fear 16 
Black Eagle's Father (Seminole Chief) Advenutre into Fear 16 
Black Hole Marvel Treasury Edition#12 
Black Spectre (organization) Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
Black Spectre Communications Officer Daredevil #110 June, 1974 
Blackie and his street brutes Marvel Presents #5 
Bledsoe (mentioned) Star Wars: Tatooine Sojurn 
Block Association Gone Berserk (self-described) Howard the Duck #20 
Blood-Hungry Demon Giant-Size Defenders #3 
Blossom Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Board of Directors, Midtown Receiving Hospital Omega the Unknown #1 
Bob Dryllin Crazy Magazine #3 
Bobby Adler (mentioned; never seen) Howard the Duck v1#5 
Bobby Sureman Spoof 3 
Boche Dracula Lives! 2 
Bonasch Crazy Magazine #12 
Bong underlings (4) Howard the Duck #15 
Boyd Iron Man Annual #3 
Brainard Adventure into Fear 13 (named in a later issue--Joshua's devil's advocate in the Cult of Zhered-Na) 
Brian Lazarus Man-Thing 12 
Brian Lazarus's Psychiatrist Man-Thing #12 
Brickface Adamantfugga Crazy Magazine #6 
Britney (at Globally Branded) Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
Brother of the Panther Howard the Duck #3 
Bruce Mason Tales of the Zombie #3 
Bruno Omega the Unknown #9 
Bubbles O'Day The Rampaging Hulk #8 
Byron Hyatt Marvel Spotlight 15 
Bzzk'Joh, Son of Sombra Howard the Duck #22 
Caliph of Bagmom Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Calvin Howard the Duck 10/9/77 
Candace Nelson Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
Capitan Shield Man-Thing 8 
Captain Chamber of Chills 2 
Captain Fate Man-Thing I#13 (January, 1975) 
Captain James Matson Man-Thing #13 
Captain Quirk Crazy Magazine #5 
Captain of the Oigag Howard the Duck #18 
Captain of the S.S. Damned Howard the Duck #15 
Caretakers Adventure into Fear 21 
Carlo Howard the Duck #17 
Carol Selby Man-Thing Vol 1 #18 
Carolyn Schist Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Carolyn/Carrie Vampire Tales 1 
Castra Fidelis Crazy Magazine #8 
Cecil (nurse) Howard the Duck #12 
Celestia Denton Defenders #20 
Central Park Cops (3) Marvel Treasury Edition #12 
Cerberus (Noble's dog) Marvel Spotlight #18 
Chancellor Fubshudget Crazy Magazine #2 
Channel 8 manager Howard the Duck #21 
Charity Winslow Howard the Duck 10/2/77 
Charles Howard the Duck #17 
Charles "Whizzo" Lester Defenders 31 
Charlie Dracula Lives! 11 
Charlie Chamber of Chills 2 
Charlie (cat) Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
Charlie (cop) Iron Man #56 March 1973 
Charlie's partner Iron Man #56 March 1973 
Chester (orderly) Omega the Unknown #2 
Chief of Detectives Tom DeFalco (mentioned) Avengers Spotlight #33 June 1990 
Chief of Security Howard the Duck #7 
Chondu's monstrous new form Defenders #35 
Chris Marvel Fanfare #56 
Chris Sanders Man-Thing Vol 1 #19 
Christine Sandt Marvel Spotlight #20 
Christopher Dale Monsters Unleashed 8 
Chuck Man-Thing #15 
Ciceron Tales of the Zombie #2 
Cine Libido ticket clerk Howard the Duck #21 
Circe The Rampaging Hulk #7 
Cissy Defenders #33 
Claudia Leitch Crazy Magazine #13 
Clement Harboloy Crazy Magazine #5 
Clifford the Great Journey Into Mystery II 4 
Clifford's Beautiful Assistant Journey Into Mystery II 4 
Clifford's Heckler/Victim Journey Into Mystery II 4 
Colleen Sanders Man-Thing Vol 1 #19 
Colonel Kornblum Hanna-Barbera Spotlight #4 
Commander Ogord Marvel Presents #9 February 1977 
Commissioner Gordonski Giant-Size Man-Thing#5 
Committee for the Free Emigration Defenders #40 
Compagnie de Lux lackey Defenders Annual #1 
Composite Professor Defenders #32 
Confederation of Nations (formed in 1995) Defenders #26 
Congress of Realities (most individuals unnamed) Man-Thing v1#1 
Convent of Living Fire (organization) Marvel Presents #6 
Cop Fighting Death-Stalker Daredevil #115 Nov. 1974 
Cop Helping Up Daredevil Marvel Two-in-One #3 
Cop ticketing Aragorn Giant-Size Defenders #4 
Coswok Harboloy Crazy Magazine #5 
Count Macho Howard the Duck v1#3 
Count Macho's gang (4) Howard the Duck #3 
Crazyman Crazy Magazine #9 
Crusty Old Hag Marvel Presents #5 
Customer Service Representative Howard the Duck #23 
Cynthia Howard the Duck 9/6/77 
Cynthia (Iron Girl/Molecule Man) Iron Man Annual #3 
Cynthia's mother Iron Man Annual #3 
Dakimh the Enchanter Adventure into Fear 14 
Dallas Kerr Marvel Comics Presents 60 
Danielle (Dani) Nicolle Man-Thing Vol 1 #20 
Danny Crassity Spoof 3 
Darby (Ernest Logan) of the Skull-Crushers Man-Thing 2 
Daring Assassin Howard the Duck #8 
Darnaga Pith Crazy Magazine #6 
Darrel Daniel Man-Thing 5 (chronological: Giant-Size Man-Thing 5) 
David Howard the Duck #17 
David (impaled neo-nazi) Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
David Anthony Defenders #41 
David Crassity Spoof 3 
Dawg Man-Thing 9 
Dean of Men at Grayburn University Defenders #32 
Death-Stalker (new Gerber-created identity for Phillip Wallace Sterling aka The Exterminator) Daredevil #113 Sept. 1974 
Deena Marvel Fanfare #56 
Dehuna (mentioned) Man-Thing #20 
Deirdre Crazy Magazine #14 
Deirdre's Mother Crazy Magazine #14 
Della Defenders #22 
Della Fiorelli Marvel Preview 16 
Dennis (pinball jerk) Omega the Unknown #6 
Destiny Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Detective Lieutenant Alex Quinn Marvel Spotlight #16 
Detective Suzi Pazuzu Howard the Duck (MAX)#2 
Deviant Crazy Magazine #5 
Devil of the Tarot Marvel Spotlight #20 
Dian Omega the Unknown # 3 
Dibbuk Omega the Unknown #10 
Dirk Mantooth Marvel Fanfare #56 
Dizzie the Hun Marvel Comics Super Special #1 
Doc Man-Thing #10 
Doc Kabel Tales of the Zombie #8 
Dockworker Running from Man-Thing Man-Thing #14 
Doctor Chamber of Chills 2 
Doctor Bong (Lester Verde) Howard the Duck 15 
Doctor Skarab Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Doctor who treats Howard and dines with Beverly Howard the Duck #11 
Dolly (pinball machine) Tales of the Zombie #4 
Donada Duke Crazy Magazine #8 
Donny Dearth Howard the Duck #23 
Dora Tales of the Zombie #8 
Dork in Crowd Egging on Daredevil Daredevil #110 June, 1974 
Doug Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Doa Valencia Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 2 
Dr. Abe Dansker Omega the Unknown # 5 
Dr. Alcaraz Marvel Comics Presents 61 
Dr. Ames Marvel Spotlight #16 
Dr. Angst, Master of Mundane Mysticism Marvel Treasury Edition#12 
Dr. Anton Cartier Tales of the Zombie #2 
Dr. Arlen Sub-Mariner #69 
Dr. Avery Howard the Duck #12 
Dr. Beechman Daredevil #110 June, 1974 
Dr. Carroll Harter Supernatural Thrillers 7 
Dr. Charles Laing (chair, Empire State University Department of Journalism) Daredevil #113 Sept. 1974 
Dr. Damon Walthers Sub-Mariner #66 
Dr. Dane Gavin Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Dr. Dorothy Betz The Rampaging Hulk #9 (first named in Marvel Fanfare #56) 
Dr. Du Monte Dracula Lives! 1 
Dr. Guy Lillian Iron Man #58 May 1973 
Dr. Heller Man-Thing Vol 1 #18 
Dr. Henry Croft Sub-Mariner #61 (unidentified Dr. Hydro victim)/Sub Mariner #68 (named) 
Dr. Hydro Sub-Mariner #61 
Dr. James Wynter Giant-Size Defenders #4 
Dr. Juden Bardham The Rampaging Hulk #8 
Dr. Juliann Quinn Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Dr. Kaaldar Star Wars: Tatooine Sojurn 
Dr. Katherine Reynolds Marvel Spotlight 14 
Dr. Kopern The Haunt of Horror 1 
Dr. Laslo Schact Man-Thing 6 
Dr. Marlin Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 2 
Dr. Maura Spinner Man-Thing #13 
Dr. Memo Tossick Crazy Magazine #11 
Dr. Pazz-Ko Marvel Presents #5 
Dr. Reich (Adolf Hitler) Howard the Duck #13 
Dr. Roh-Ma Marvel Presents #5 
Dr. Ruhart Gnaan (pseudonym of Dr. Arthur Nagan) Defenders Annual #1 
Dr. Thomas Barrow Omega The Unknown # 1 
Dr. Warner Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Dr. Watley Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Dr. Wilfred Noble, Chair, Gateway University Department of Psychiatry Marvel Spotlight #18 
Dr. Willis Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
Dr. Zarkov Crazy Magazine #9 
Dreyfuss Gultch Howard the Duck v1#7 
Dreyfuss Gultch's men (3) Howard the Duck #8 
Duck with Neez Howard the Duck #15 
Duff Coogan Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Dune People (commune) Defenders #41 
Dunstan Quobrox Howard the Duck v1#8 
Dvombir Hekubqua Crazy Magazine #6 
E-Z Pay Appliance Store Owner Howard the Duck #5 
E.J. Peabody (mentioned) Daredevil #106 Dec, 1973 
ESU nurse Sub-Mariner #69 
ESU students (2) who recognize Namor Sub-Mariner #68 
Eben Howard the Duck #24 
Ebor Marvel Two-in-One #5 
Ebrok the Sorceror Adventure into Fear 22 
Ed (truck stop owner) Man-Thing #10 
Ed Smith Crazy Magazine #6 
Edmond Winshed Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Edward Nelson Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
Eelar Giant-Size Defenders#5 (July, 1975) 
Effervesca Fizzi Crazy Magazine #8 
Ehrthold Giant-Size Man-Thing #5 
El Gato Omega the Unknown#4 (September, 1976) 
Elaine Dale Monsters Unleashed #8 
Elaine Parrish Monsters Unleashed #8 
Elanna's Standard-Bearer Sub-Mariner #64 
Elanna, widow of Tanas Sub-Mariner #64/2 August, 1973 
Eleanor Welluferb Crazy Magazine #3 
Elena Defenders #22 
Elena (mugged waitress) Avengers Spotlight #32 May 1990 
Elena's daughter Defenders #22 
Elinore Pinder Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Elizabeth (huskie) Howard the Duck v1#9 
Ellsworth Inri Crazy Magazine #6 
Elmer (Kidney Lady's lover) Howard the Duck #12 
Elos (mentioned) Defenders #29 
Elsbeth Duhl Man-Thing #21 
Elton Howard the Duck #19 
Emerson Chamber of Chills 2 
Emile "The Goat" Klout Howard the Duck v1#5 
Emlot Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
Emma Sub-Mariner #68 
Emperor Goozot and his three wives Defenders #27 
Emulsio Frederickson Crazy Magazine #6 
Enrique Moreno Avengers Spotlight #31 April 1990 
Entropist Leader, The Howard the Duck 8/23/77 (NOT Prof. Yagzan) 
Eric Clap Crazy Magazine #3 
Eric Hennig Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
Eric Masterson Tales of the Zombie #6 
Ernie Marvel Preview 16 
Ethel Omega the Unknown #6 
Ethos (invoked as deity by Ibbar) Sub-Mariner #67 
Eugene Crazy Magazine #8 
Eugene "The Star" Spangler Man-Thing Vol 1 #16 
Exo-Mind (actual) The Rampaging Hulk #8; (behind the scenes, according to RH #8) Marvel Presents I#1 (October, 1975); 
Eye of Force/Schamballah Neo-Nazis (organization) Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
Ezekiel "Zeke" Tork Man-Thing #9 
F.B.I. Agents (2) after Candace Nelson Daredevil #113 Sept. 1974 
FH-177 Fighter Pilot Howard the Duck #18 
Fangor: All the Evils of Man Iron Man #56 March 1973 
Farmboy Fashion-Plate Mr. Cool The Rampaging Hulk #7 
Farth Crazy Magazine #5 
Father Darklyte Marvel Spotlight #23 
Father Gosset (in dream) Marvel Spotlight #22 
Felicia (Valkyire's fat, belligerent cell mate) Defenders #37 
Ferdinand "Ferdie" Flynn, Man of Action Giant-Size Defenders #5 
Ferdinand "Foxy" Pertierra Marvel Comics Presents 63 
Fire Demon Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
Fival Fuvnik Iron Man #56 March 1973 
Flagelist Monk Crazy Magazine #8 
Flap Wilson/Geraldine Spoof 4 
Flea (Nugg Fletcher) Crazy Magazine #3 
Flight 505 Co-Pilot Sub-Mariner #61 
Flight 505 Pilot Sub-Mariner #61 
Floor Director of Gonzo the Clown Howard the Duck #5 
Foggy Nelson's nurse Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
Foolkiller (Greg Salinger) Omega the Unknown #9 (1976) (cameo in #8 by Roger Stern) 
Foolkiller (Kurt Gerhardt) Foolkiller #1 (1990) 
Foolkiller (Ross G. Everbest [named by Roger Stern]) Man-Thing #3 (1974) 
Foreman (Charlie-27's boss for one day) Marvel Presents #3 
Fountain Drinkers (2) Man-Thing 8 
Frances Lester Defenders #31 
Frank Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Frank (cop) Sub-Mariner #69 
Franklin Armstrong Schist Adventure Into Fear 16 
Fred (mentioned) Giant-Size Defenders #3 
Fred Dobsnodd Crazy Magazine #9 
Fred Feenix, The Self-Made Man Howard the Duck 10/27/77 
Fred Miller Tales of the Zombie #8 
Fred, the Paunchy Patrolman Howard the Duck #12 
Freda Pain Crazy Magazine #3 
Freddie Omega the Unknown # 3 
Freddy Bravada Crazy Magazine #4 
French (Martin Small) of the Skull-Crushers Man-Thing 2 
French businessman Defenders Annual #1 
Fruhouse Renwicke Crazy Magazine #5 
G. Q. Studley Howard the Duck v1#8 
Garko, the Man-Frog Giant-Size Man-Thing#4 
Gene Gretch Tales of the Zombie #4 
Gene Kahn (pseudonym of the Mandarin) Iron Man #57 April 1973 
General Daredevil #113 Sept. 1974 
General Mandrake Root Hanna-Barbera TV Stars #4 
General Roderick Berglund Cloak and Dagger III #15 December 1990 
Gennard the Candlemaker Man-Thing #15 
George Adventure into Fear 15 
George Teekle (neighbor of Dr. Arthur Nagan) Defenders #21 (last name given in Defenders #34) 
German Coffee Shop Owner Howard the Duck #19 
German Scientist Marvel Presents #3 
Giant Entropist, The Howard the Duck 9/22/77 
Giant Rat ("Mickey") Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Gingerbread Man Howard the Duck v1#6 
Ginny Defenders #22 
Ginny Jenkins Marvel Fanfare #57 
Gloria Howard the Duck 1/31/78 
Gnaxos (mentioned) Defenders #28 
Gonahga Austere Crazy Magazine #10 
Gonzo the Clown Howard the Duck v1#5 
Goofo Crazy Magazine #11 
Governess to Kyle Richmond Defenders #32 
Gracie (talked to on phone by Rolling Stone bullpenner) Daredevil #100 
Gramps Omega the Unknown 2 
Grandma Margaret Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Grandma on welfare Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
Granny Marvel Preview 16 
Graybar The Haunt of Horror 1 
Greer (mentioned) Howard the Duck #8 
Gremlin Sub-Mariner #61 
Griffin of the Sons of Nihilism Marvel Spotlight #23 
Grim-Faced Policeman Marvel Spotlight #21 
Grott, The Man-Slayer Giant-Size Defenders #3 
Guard with Whip Sub-Mariner #65 
Guillermo (Ruth and Amber's landlord) Omega the Unknown #7 
Gumpy (Howard's cell mate with the cigarettes) Howard the Duck #12 
Gurdy O'Gawannee Crazy Magazine #7 
Hackett Daredevil #116 Dec. 1974 
Hackett's partner Daredevil #116 Dec. 1974 
Hackman Tales of the Zombie #2 
Hank Man-Thing 7 
Hans Giant-Size Man-Thing #5 
Hans Offmimudder Crazy Magazine #3 
Hardtop Avengers Spotlight #33 June 1990 
Hare Krishnu [sic] with _To Sri With Love_ Howard the Duck #11 April 
Harkov Marvel Two-in-One #5 
Harlan Crazy Magazine #5 
Harold Holliman Defenders #22 
Harold Sipid Crazy Magazine #3 
Harper Cloak and Dagger III #16 February 1991 
Harper's Pal Cloak and Dagger III #16 February 1991 
Harry (deer poacher) Defenders #31 
Harvey Sub-Mariner #68 
Harvey Schlemerman (Chondu's real name) first mentioned Defenders #32 
Harvey Stoller Tales of the Zombie #8 
Harz Fapsod Crazy Magazine #11 
Hassim, Prince of Bagmom Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Hauptman Rudolph Kriss Dracula Lives! 2 
Hawk-God Marvel Presents #9 February 1977 
Headmen (organization consisting of Dr. Arthur Nagan, Chondu, Dr. Jerry Morgan, and Ruby Thursday--only the latter character originated with Gerber) Defenders #21 
Heathcliff Rochester Howard the Duck v1#6 
Heather (at Globally Branded) Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
Hektu Adventure into Fear 17 
Helena Frederenco Crazy Magazine #9 
Hellbird Daredevil #99 May 1973 
Heloise Hanna-Barbera TV Stars #4 
Hensley Fargus (phony Mandrill identity) Daredevil #109 May 1974 
Hippie Nudist with Butterfly Wings Marvel Presents #5 
Hiram "Don't Gimme No" Balogna, hanging judge of Sauerbratch County Traffic Court Howard the Duck #12 
Hiroshi Yakamura Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Hispanic punks (2) Omega the Unknown #2 
Histy Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
Holden Crane Adventure into Fear 18 
Holly Nordhoff Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Hooper Rotorgott Crazy Magazine #6 
Horst Turtlewacks Crazy Magazine #13 
Housefly as big as a house Howard the Duck #22 
Howard the Duck Adventure into Fear #19 
Hubley children (3) (mentioned) Howard the Duck #26 
Huggerz, The Living Devil Doll Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Hunting Thomas Crazy Magazine #3 
Hurdy O'Gawannee Crazy Magazine #7 
I Adventure into Fear 23 
Ian Whippingham Howard the Duck (MAX)#3 
Ibbar the Scholar Sub-Mariner #64 
Ice Goddess Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
Ignatz Hubley Howard the Duck #26 
Igwana O'Gawannee Crazy Magazine #7 
Ikthalon Marvel Spotlight 14 
Indian assassins Defenders Annual #1 
Innworlder mistaking Hulk Giant-Size Defenders #3 
Ipsis Giant-Size Man-Thing #3 
Iris Raritan Howard the Duck #25 
Isabelle Pogorny Crazy Magazine #4 
J.C. Pennysworth Defenders #25 
JS-3 school nurse Omega the Unknown #5 
Jack (cop) Daredevil #110 June, 1974 
Jack Norriss Defenders #23 (first mentioned in Defenders #20) 
Jack Pollack Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Jack's Partner Daredevil #110 June, 1974 
Jacob Fobshotch Crazy Magazine #13 
Jake (bartender) Howard the Duck #26 
Jake Simpson Adventure into Fear 16 
Jake, the car thief Marvel Presents #5 
James-Michael Starling OMEGA THE UNKNOWN #1 
Jamie Marvel Spotlight #21 
Jamie Horner (guitarist for Red Feather) Man-Thing Vol 1 #16 
Janet's Father (fornicator murderer) Vampire Tales 6 
Janie Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Janis (Angar's girlfriend) Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
Jason Nordhoff (mentioned) Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Jaxon Adventure Into Fear 13 
Jaxon 5/Michael Jaxon Spoof 3 
Jeanette (waitress) Tales of the Zombie #4 
Jeb (guard at Citrusville Sewage Treatment Plant) Man-Thing #17 
Jeff Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Jeff's Girlfriend Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Jeffers (attorney to Tony Stark) Iron Man #57 April 1973 
Jeffrey Howard the Duck #3 
Jennifer (at Globally Branded) Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
Jennifer Kale Adventure into Fear #11 
Jeremy Man-Thing #15 
Jerome Newmark Avengers Spotlight #36 (first mentioned in #34) September 1990 
Jesus Ramos Avengers Spotlight #32 (named in #33) May 1990 
Jim Arsdale Adventure into Fear 18 
Jimi Olsen Crazy Magazine #3 
Jimmy Dry Crazy Magazine #3 
JoJo Treswhitt Crazy Magazine #6 
Joan Franklin Tales of the Zombie #6 
Joanie Dundale Crazy Magazine #11 
Joe Crazy Magazine #8 
Joe (construction worker) Daredevil #103 Sept, 1973 
Joe (police officer) Giant-Size Man-Thing#4 
Joe Mountbatten Howard the Duck v1#6 
Johanna Kelso Crazy Magazine #3 
John Chamber of Chills 2 
John (charge of Aleta and Stakar) Defenders #29 November 1975 
John (orderly) Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 2 
John Lemmon Spoof 4 
John Lemon Crazy Magazine #3 
John Nedly Omega The Unknown # 3 
Jon Erikson or Erickson Dracula Lives! 11 
Jones (security guard) Supernatural Thrillers 7 
Josh (EMT) Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Joshua Kale Adventure into Fear 13 
Joyce Tales of the Zombie #8 
Jubal Brown Giant-Size Man-Thing #5 
Judge Albright (mentioned) Daredevil #104 Oct, 1973 
Judy Marvel Spotlight #16 
Judy's Boyfriend (Dopey) Marvel Spotlight #16 
Julio Hernandez Marvel Fanfare #58 
June Teekle (neighbor of Dr. Arthur Nagan) Defenders #21(last name given in Defenders #34) 
Justin Hargrove Crazy Magazine #11 
Kabal the Wizard Sub-Mariner #64 
Kahlil Lampshoot III Crazy Magazine #11 
Kaluba Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
Kaluu (mentioned) Man-Thing #20 
Kamar Giant-Size Man-Thing #1 
Kamuu Sub-Mariner #62 
Kamuu the Younger Sub-Mariner #65 
Karanada Marvel Presents #4 
Karyn Cloak and Dagger III #15 December 1990 
Katanya Tales of the Zombie #3 
Katerama (mentioned) Man-Thing #20 
Kavor Sub-Mariner #64 
Kazantra Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
Kenneth Flogg Howard the Duck (MAX)#3 
Kevin Kennerman Adventure into Fear 18 
Khordes Man-Thing #13 (mention) Man-Thing #14 (appearance) 
Kidney Lady (Blotte (first name unrevealed)) Howard the Duck v1 #2 
Killbride McHurt (Norman Fuelbiter) Crazy Magazine #11 
Killer Lampshade Howard the Duck #16 
Kimberly (at Globally Branded) Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
King Gerark Adventure into Fear #22 
Kinsey Gardner Marvel Fanfare #56 
Kismet Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Klonus the Wizard Giant-Size Man-Thing #3 
Ko-chur Di-Uhl Do-mow-ry Oco-rek Zweeeet Rehl-liiissh Howard the Duck #22 
Kometes Marvel Spotlight I#16 (July, 1974) 
Kong Lomerate Howard the Duck I#10 (March, 1977) 
Konog Man-Thing v1#1 
Koord, Badoon Governor of Sol-III Marvel Presents #3 
Korrek, Warrior Prince of Katharta Adventure into Fear 19 
Korvac [given the first name Michael by a later writer] Giant-Size Defenders #3 
Koz Defenders #27 
Kurt Klemmer Omega the Unknown # 6 
Ladder 85 firefighters (2) Howard the Duck #18 
Lance Howard the Duck #26 
Larraine Howard the Duck 6/24/77 
Larry and two other punks that think they're funny Giant-Size Defenders #5 
Lars Fengen Crazy Magazine #3 
Las Vegas Chorus Girl Howard the Duck #16 
Laslo Noshdt Crazy Magazine #11 
Laurie Tales of the Zombie #1 
Layla Tales of the Zombie #1 
Lazard Sub-Mariner #61 
Leepid O'Gawannee Crazy Magazine #7 
Leif Karlsson Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Leroy Turtlewacks Crazy Magazine #13 
Lester Man-Thing #10 
Lester Austere Crazy Magazine #10 
Lethal Bat (never shown; title character of movie Clint and Bobbi see) Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
Leutnant Hanson Dracula Lives! 2 
Lewis (orderly) Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 2 
Lewis Milner Giant-Size Man-Thing 4 
Li Fong Avengers Spotlight #36 September 1990 
Lieutenant (heard but not seen, serving Commander Ogord) Marvel Presents #9 February 1977 
Linda Pritchett Defenders 25 
Linda, the Hospitality Girl Howard the Duck #7 
Lipton (Matson's Boss) Man-Thing #13 
Little Suzie Takemedown Crazy Magzine #9 
Little Tough Guy Man-Thing 6 
Living Mummy/N'Kantu Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Lois Bliss Tales of the Zombie #4 
Lois Bliss's Lawyers Tales of the Zombie #4 
Long-haired student on the Citrusville High Quill staff Giant-Size Man-Thing 4 
Looie ( a pimp) Omega the Unknown # 6 
Looie's girl Omega the Unknown #6 
Lordsire Drang Marvel Two-in-One #5 
Lordsire Droom Defenders #27 
Lorena Man-Thing 8 
Loretta Noble (mentioned) Marvel Spotlight #18 
Lotus Newmark Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
Lotus Newmark's personal physician/customer service representative Avengers Spotlight #33 June 1990 
Lotus's math teacher Avengers Spotlight #36 September 1990 
Lotus's sensei Avengers Spotlight #36 July 1990 
Lou (obscene phone caller) Howard the Duck #24 
Louis Garrison Tales of the Zombie #8 
Louise (mentioned on radio) Howard the Duck #20 
Louise Haberdasher Crazy Magazine #6 
Lovetta Hiddrop Crazy Magazine #8 
Lt. Harris Marvel Comics Presents 61 
Lubderites of Zaar Giant-Size Defenders #4 (mentioned) / Defenders #33 (appeared) 
Luke Stuckey Hanna-Barbera TV Stars #4 
Lulu Crazy Magazine #5 
Lulu Yuletide (Faye Fung) Crazy Magazine #11 
Lunatic Gladiator, father of Bzzk'Joh Howard the Duck #22 
Lupine Berserker Marvel Spotlight #20 
MP Captain America #222 
Mac, the murderer Marvel Presents #5 
Mad Dog Howard the Duck #19 
Mad Viking (Josefsen) Man-Thing Vol 1 #16 
Mad-Woman (Patsy's mother) Howard the Duck v1#6 
Madame Fogawa Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Madame Foo-Foo Crazy Magazine #11 
Madame Laera Vampire Tales 1 
Madame McEvil (alternate identity for Moondragon) Daredevil #103 Sept, 1973 
Madame Swabada Marvel Spotlight #20 (chronological: Giant-Size Man-Thing #5) 
Maddoxx Sub-Mariner #64 
Madeleine "Maddy" Wickes The Rampaging Hulk #9 
Maftra Adventures into Fear#15(?) 
Major Arcana Hanna-Barbera Spotlight #4 
Mamie Omega the Unknown # 6 
Man-Lizard Giant-Size Defenders #3 
Mandu Marvel Comics Super Special #1 
Manipulator Avengers I#178 (December, 1978) 
Manuel Nagasaki Crazy Magazine #12 
Marcus Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Margaret Pinder Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Margaret/Margie Giant-Size Man-Thing #5 
Marge (Ginny Jenkins's secretary) Marvel Fanfare #57 
Maria Dracula Lives! 6 
Marie Defenders Annual #1 
Marie (mentioned) Howard the Duck #24 
Marie Winshed Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Mark Jackson Adventure into Fear 12 
Mark Jackson's Girlfriend Adventure into Fear 12 
Mark Sanders Man-Thing Vol 1 #19 
Marky Howard the Duck #17 
Marlene Howard the Duck 2/3/78 
Martha "Yuk Yuk" Infestus O'Gawannee Crazy Magazine #7 
Martin Defenders #33 
Martin Friend Marvel Fanfare #56 
Martin Gold Vampire Tales 6 
Martin's mate Defenders #33 
Marty and 2 other thugs Omega the Unknown #2 
Marty and his poker buddies Howard the Duck #20 
Martyrdom for Millions Jesus Freak Howard the Duck #11 
Mary Iron Man #56 
Mary Astrovik Giant-Size Defenders #5 
Mary Brown Adventure into Fear 18 
Mary Jane Peale Vampire Tales 6 
Mary Manners Marvel Spotlight #18 
Mary's boyfriend Iron Man #56 March, 1973 
Master C'haaj Howard the Duck v1#3 
Maury Marvel Fanfare #57 
Maw Adventure into Fear 17 
Maxine Hubley (mentioned) Howard the Duck #26 
Maybelle Tork Man-Thing #9 
McHeny (cop) Daredevil #101 July, 1973 
Mechanic with a Million Stories Daredevil #103 Sept, 1973 
Medark (mentioned) Adventure into Fear 17 
Mehitabel Monleith Howard the Duck #25 
Mel Bogowitz Marvel Fanfare #59 
Melinda Harboloy Crazy Magazine #5 
Melissa (servant of Ruby Thursday) Defenders Annual #1 
Melissa Manners Marvel Spotlight #18 
Melra Howard the Duck #21 
Mentor (father of Thanos) Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
Mickey (cop) Giant-Size Defenders #5 
Mickey Hooper The Rampaging Hulk #7 
Midge Yakamura Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Mike Crazy Magazine #14 
Mike (police officer) Giant-Size Man-Thing#4 
Mildred Horowitz Howard the Duck #17 
Millicent Frenzpitch Crazy Magazine #11 
Millicent Godfrey Man-Thing Vol 1 #19 
Mills Man-Thing #11 
Mills's Team (Agent Orange Victims) (3) Man-Thing #11 
Milo (Death-Stalker's goon) Daredevil #115 Nov. 1974 
Milo Daniel Man-Thing 6 
Milo Phosdum Crazy Magazine #7 
Milton Childs (pawn shop owner) Giant-Size Defenders #5 
Mindy Defenders #32 
Miracle Child Marvel Two-in-One #8 
Miss Barth Man-Thing #18 
Miss Dipsey Howard the Duck 11/3/77 
Miss Erables Crazy Magazine #8 
Miss Felman Adventure into Fear 14 
Miss Hartman Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Miss Hernandez (nude model) (mentioned) Marvel Fanfare #58 
Miss Simmons (Citrusville High Quill Faculty Advisor) Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Mitch (EMT) Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Mitchell Defenders #33 
Mme. Fifi Howard the Duck #17 
Mode Blanks (gang organization) Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
Moira Mason Tales of the Zombie #3 
Molecule Rattlesnake Iron Man Annual #3 
Mon-Tee Defenders #28 
Mona Howard the Duck #17 
Monica Guiterrez Avengers Spotlight #31 April 1990 
Monster of Badoon, The Marvel Two-in-One #4 
Montesi (Vatican Monk) Dracula Lives! 6 
Moody (police officer) Howard the Duck 8/3/77 
Mop Man (Joe Trinity/Mrinh) Marvel Comics Presents 60 
Morgan (cop) Sub-Mariner #69 
Mortak the Usurper Giant-Size Man-Thing #3 
Mortoid Marvel Two-in-One #2 
Morty (Star Spangler's Manager) Man-Thing #16 
Motel Owner Man-Thing 5 
Mother Superior Marvel Presents #7 
Mr. Beal (School Teacher) Omega The Unknown # 3 
Mr. Blotte (mentioned) (Kidney Lady's father) Howard the Duck #12 
Mr. Bunt Howard the Duck 6/19/77 
Mr. Carpenter Man-Thing Vol 1 #17 
Mr. Crawlspace Crazy Magazine #9 
Mr. Dannon (Citrusville High School Custodian) Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Mr. Fantastic Duplicate Marvel Two-in-One #1 
Mr. Finegold Marvel Fanfare #57 
Mr. Garvey Man-Thing 5 
Mr. Gottlieb Avengers #178 
Mr. Hooper (Cleveland tobacconist) Giant-Size Man-Thing#4 
Mr. Jackson Avengers #178 
Mr. Kaslov Defenders #35 
Mr. Langor Howard the Duck #7 
Mr. Lucien (Science Teacher) Omega the Unknown # 4 
Mr. Nebul Defenders Annual #1 
Mr. Persecutor Howard the Duck #27 
Mr. Petrie Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Mr. Pitterfool Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
Mr. Quinn Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Mr. Reichter Crazy Magazine #14 
Mr. Sandt Marvel Spotlight #21 
Mr. Sandt's Secretary Marvel Spotlight #21 
Mr. Sangor Howard the Duck v1#7 
Mr. Six Tales of the Zombie #2 
Mr. Slech Marvel Presents #5 
Mr. Spook Crazy Magazine #5 
Mr. Starling Omega the Unknown #1 
Mr. Thraller (pseudonym of Maynard Tiboldt/Ringmaster) Howard the Duck #25 
Mr. Warington Avengers #178 
Mr. Zulu Crazy Magazine #5 
Mrs. Adler & her four children Howard the Duck v1#5 
Mrs. Beechman Daredevil #110 June, 1974 
Mrs. Calley Giant-Size Man-Thing #5 
Mrs. Coogan Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Mrs. Cosgrove Hanna-Barbera TV Stars #4 
Mrs. Dunkirk Howard the Duck 2/6/78 
Mrs. Edward Nelson Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
Mrs. Furgen (mentioned) Howard the Duck #17 
Mrs. Hernandez Marvel Fanfare #58 
Mrs. Jordan Tales of the Zombie #8 
Mrs. Karlsson Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Mrs. Lafferty (Jack Norriss's landlady) Defenders #20 
Mrs. Newmark Avengers Spotlight #36 September 1990 
Mrs. Reichter Crazy Magazine #14 
Mrs. Rosenzweig Defenders #40 
Mrs. Starling Omega the Unknown #1 
Mrs. Tindall Crazy Magazine #14 
Muurks (dream sequence only) Howard the Duck v1#2 
NAAC-P30 Howard the Duck #23 
NASA flight controller Hanna-Barbera Spotlight #4 
Nekra Shanna the She-Devil 5 
Nekra's Father Daredevil #110 June, 1974 
Nekra's Mother (Cleaning Lady Exposed to Radiation) Daredevil #110 June, 1974 
Nephrus Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Newton Selby Man-Thing #17 
Nick Iron Man #58 May 1973 
Nick Cromer Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Nick Delbello Omega The Unknown # 3 
Nicky Tales of the Zombie #4 
Nightmare Box Man-Thing Vol 1 #20 
Nikki Marvel Presents #4 
Nikki Noki Howard the Duck (MAX)#2 
Nikki's father Marvel Presents #4 
Nikki's mother Marvel Presents #4 
Nilrac Vampire Tales 1 
Nixl from the Planet Pooker Hanna-Barbera Spotlight #4 
Nobody Anybody Knows/Tom Smith Dracula Lives! 11 
Norwood Frederenco Crazy Magazine #9 
Ocar Sub-Mariner #62 
Officer Bob Omega the Unknown #2 
Officer Bob's partner Omega the Unknown #2 
Officer Crum Defenders #36 
Officer Crum's partner Defenders #38 
Officer protecting the Schists Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Ogg Marvel Two-in-One #5 
Oko Yono Spoof 4 
Olaf Man-Thing 7 
Old Lady in the Front Row Defenders #34 
Old Pyotr Defenders #35 
Old Pyotr's victim Defenders #35 
Oliver Winshed Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Olivia Selby Man-Thing Vol 1 #17 
Ollie the Custodian Crazy Magazine #13 
Ombu-Doksi Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Omega the Unknown Omega the Unknown #1 
One Whom Hank McCoy Needed Avengers #178 
One-Eyed Tentacle Monster that "killed" Daredevil Giant-Size Defenders #3 
Oozie (and his girls (unnamed)) Crazy Magazine #5 
Operation Darkdoor scientists Cloak and Dagger III #16 February 1990 
Opuluma Frederenco Crazy Magazine #9 
Orrek, Son of Stegor Sub-Mariner #64 
Orville Adventure into Fear 15 
Orville Latimer Man-Thing Vol 1 #17 
Ostrich Howard the Duck #16 
Ozmonds Spoof 3 
Pablo Emrile Avengers Spotlight #32 (named in #33) May 1990 
Papa Tales of the Zombie #5 
Parsifal (pit bull) Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
Patsy Howard the Duck v1#6 
Patsy's Grandmother Howard the Duck #6 
Patti The Rampaging Hulk #7 
Patti Hayes Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Paul Benton Giant-Size Man-Thing #1 
Paul Edwards Man-Thing Vol 1 #18 
Paul Jennings Man-Thing Vol 1 #20 
Paul Same (Winky-Man) Howard the Duck I#4 (July, 1976) 
Paul Same's Grandfather (?) Howard the Duck #4 
Paul Same's elementary school teacher Howard the Duck #4 
Paul Same's mother Howard the Duck #4 
Paul Same's preschool teacher Howard the Duck #4 
Paul Sanders Man-Thing Vol 1 #19 
Paul Vacant Crazy Magazine #3 
Paula (stripper) Marvel Presents #3 
Paula Lindstrom Crazy Magazine #4 
Paw Adventure into Fear 17 
Penelope Richmond Defenders #32 
Perry Avengers #178 
Pete (looking at "Playperson") Howard the Duck #20 
Pete Zamora Avengers Spotlight #30 MArch 1990 
Pfenner Defenders Annual #1 
Phantom Blonde (Wanda Louise Mason) She-Hulk #23 
Phelch Howard the Duck #2 
Philip Bliss Tales of the Zombie #3 
Philip Bliss's employers Tales of the Zombie #4 
Phyllis Pollack Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Pitney Omega the Unknown #5 
Poison Web of Spider-Man Annual 4 
Police (6) who arrest Daimon Hellstrom Marvel Spotlight #21 
Police Chief Cecil Mitsubishi Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Police Commissioner Feingold Defenders #39 
Pollut Wozaki, cousin of T'challa, son of T'Chaka, nephew of T'Pook Crazy Magazine #6 
Poogroch Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Pork O'Gawannee Crazy Magazine #7 
President of the Board of the Ecological History Museum Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Prettia Peedeepeep Crazy Magazine #8 
Prexy, The Marvel Presents #5 
Priest presiding at Edmond Winshed's funeral Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Priest presiding over John Nedley's funeral Omega the Unknown #10 
Priestess of the Pride Marvel Fanfare #56 
Priestesses of the Demon Pazuzu Howard the Duck (MAX)#3 
Priests of the God "Marduck or Baal or Dagon, or whoever" Howard the Duck (MAX)#3 
Prince (horse) Howard the Duck v1#9 
Prince Charming (Fernando Torres) Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
Prince Charming's buddy Avengers Spotlight #36 September 1990 
Principal Anderson Omega The Unknown # 3 
Principal of Westhaven Boarding School for Boys Defenders #32 
Pro-Rata Howard the Duck v1#1 
Professor Furgen Howard the Duck #17 
Professor Marshall Giant-Size Man-Thing #1 
Professor Ricard Tales of the Zombie #2 
Professor Slaughter (Hargood Wilbur Todd Wickham) Man-Thing 2 
Professor Yagzan (Cult of Entropy Leader) Giant-Size Man-Thing #1 
Protester Murdered by Elf in Women's Room Defenders 40 
Puffy Lady in the Muu-Muu Howard the Duck #21 
Qarl Marvel Two-in-One #5 
Quackie Duck (in comic Howard reads) Howard the Duck v1#5 
Queen Tolaria of the Sisterhood of Badoon Defenders #28 
Rabis Quentin Fabotnik Crazy Magazine #4 
Rabish (mentioned) Man-Thing #20 
Radion, the Atomic Man Marvel Two-in-One #9 
Ralph (Natasha's landlord) Daredevil #116 Dec. 1974 
Ralph (mechanic) Howard the Duck #26 
Ralph Sorrell Adventure into Fear 18 
Ralph's mother Daredevil #116 Dec. 1974 
Raman Sub-Mariner #66 
Rambunk O'Gawannee Crazy Magazine #7 
Ramona (dog) Crazy Magazine #4 
Ramone Santos Avengers Spotlight #32 (named in #33) May 1990 
Ramrod Daredevil #103 Sept, 1973 
Ramrod's radiologic technician Daredevil #103 Sept, 1973 
Ramrod's radiologist Daredevil #103 Sept, 1973 
Ramsey Klep Howard the Duck v1#8 
Ramsludge Hawthorne/Oralong Haymountain Howard the Duck #16 
Rancidor Yoxymosh Crazy Magazine #10 
Rashid (servant) Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Rasputin Iron Man I#56 (March, 1973) 
Ray Jordan Tales of the Zombie #8 
Ray Jordan's Father Tales of the Zombie #8 
Ray Jordan's Mother Tales of the Zombie #8 
Red Guardian (Dr. Tanya Belinsky/Belinskaya) Defenders #35 
Redsand Crazy Magazine #5 
Regina Rubrricky Crazy Magazine #6 
Regis Lobo Crazy Magazine #7 
Remarka Demonstrata Hawthorne Howard the Duck #16 
Renee Goldenberg Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Rennar, Brother of Stegor Sub-Mariner #64 
Rev. Joon Moon Yuc Howard the Duck v1#6 
Rev. Pierre La Pooj Crazy Magazine #6 
Revelers in Death Defenders #27 
Reverend Martin Marvel Spotlight #21 
Reverend Mike Man-Thing 4 
Reynaldo Cortizar Avengers Spotlight #31 April 1990 
Rhoda Barnett Giant-Size Defenders #4 
Richard Rory Man-Thing 2 
Richie (Central Park boater) Sub-Mariner #69 
Richie's girlfriend Sub-Mariner #69 
Richmonds' funeral director Defenders #36 
Rick O'Shea Crazy Magazine #12 
Riky Nel$um Spoof 3 
Robert (Mr. Six's manservant) Tales of the Zombie #2 
Robert Tindall Crazy Magazine #14 
Roberto Rodriguez Avengers Spotlight #32 (named in #33) May 1990 
Robot Molls of Dr. Doom Marvel Comics Super Special #1 
Robot Monks of Dr. Doom Marvel Comics Super Special #1 
Rocko Tales of the Zombie #4 
Rocky (deer poacher) Defenders #31 
Rod Howard the Duck #24 
Rod's wife Howard the Duck #24 
Roger (an artist) Man-Thing Vol 1 #16 
Roger Hayes Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Roger McGuire Marvel Preview 12 
Roland Duhl Man-Thing Vol 1 #21 
Roland Fargas Marvel Fanfare #58 
Ron Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Ronnie Brown (friend of Barbara Denton at age 11) Defenders #21 
Rose (Waitress) Omega The Unknown # 2 
Roxxon Corporation representative Howard the Duck Annual #1 1977 
Ruby Thursday (Thursday Rubenstein) Defenders 31 
Rudy Man-Thing #13 
Runyan O'Leary Crazy Magazine #3 
Ruth Hart Man-Thing 2 
S.K.G. Crazy Magazine #13 
Sage Man-Thing Vol 1 #20 
Sai-Fuur (mentioned) Howard the Duck #1 
Sainte-Cloud Man-Thing I#15 (March, 1975) 
Salaan (father of Aleta; adoptive father of Stakar) Marvel Presents #9 February 1977 
Sally Defenders #38 
Sally Good Legs Marvel Comics Presents 60 
Sam Man-Thing #10 
Sam (Clout's manager) Howard the Duck #5 
Sam (security guard) Defenders #34 
Sam Jagger Tales of the Zombie #1 
Sam Quentin Howard the Duck v1#8 
Sam's partner (security guard who finds Val's sword) Defenders #34 
Samuel Parrish Monsters Unleashed #8 
Samuel Pinder Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Sanford (redhead kid) (unnamed) Marvel Two-in-One #1; (named) Iron Man Annual #3 
Scavenger (Robert Nicolle) Man-Thing Vol 1 #19 (July, 1975) 
Scotch an' Amaretta Drunk Howard the Duck #24 
Sean Lindstrom Crazy Magazine #4 
Senator Fedart Kuylip Crazy Magazine #7 
Sensei Attila (Melba Slotnik) Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Sergeant Miller Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Serpent Supreme Defenders #23 
Sgt. Preston Dudley, RCMP Howard the Duck v1#9 
Shabbar, Guardian of the Temple--Priest of Bishru Sub-Mariner #65 
Sharona Marvel Comics Presents 60 
Shazzanna Defenders #41 
Sheldon Goldenberg Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Shelley Turtlewacks Crazy Magazine #13 
Sheriff Tom of Cobbler's Roost, Vermont Defenders #20 
Shirley (Valkyrie's friendly cellmate) Defenders #37 
Shooting Gallery Man at Coney Island Defenders #31 
Shopkeeper Marvel Two-in-One #1 
Shwarzrum Cloak and Dagger III #16 February 1991 
Sibarthu Giant-Size Man-Thing #3 
Sibyl Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Sick of the Skull-Crushers Man-Thing 2 
Silver Samurai (Kenyuchio Harada) Daredevil #111 July 1974 
Sir Hensley Fargus Craecraft-Rugby Crazy Magazine #6 
Sister Dorothea Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Sister Mary Helena (Amanda) Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Sisterhood of Badoon Defenders #27 
Sita Defenders #29 
Sitting Bullseye Marvel Treasury Edition#12 
Skizm Howard the Duck 12/15/77 
Slam Sanders Marvel Fanfare #56 
Slave of the Pride Marvel Fanfare #56 
Sleazy Defenders #20 
Sleese Marvel Presents #9 February 1977 
Sleese's friend (woman with antennae and tentacle arms who hides Stakar from the Reavers) Marvel Presents #9 February 1977 
Slice Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
Slob who Fell off the Roof Howard the Duck #8 
Sludge (Detective Sergeant Frank Hoag) Sludge #1 
Snake The Rampaging Hulk #7 
Snake of The Skull-Crushers Man-Thing 2 
Sod, Mr. Slech's gardener Marvel Presents #5 
Soja Adventure into Fear 17 
Solly Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
Solu (mention) Man-Thing #20 
Sombernus Flounder Crazy Magazine #6 
Sombra of Megrim Howard the Duck #22 
Song and Dance Man Omega the Unknown #2 
Sons of Nihilism Marvel Spotlight #16 
Sorcerer of the Pride Marvel Fanfare #56 
Soul Smutz Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Soviet Soldier in Tania's entourage Defenders #35 
Spangler the Human Hunting Dog Man-Thing #16 
Spangler's Master (Hunter) Man-Thing #16 
Spiro Aggn-New Spoof 4 
Splay Weekly receptionist Captain America #222 
Spyros (Adam) Marvel Spotlight #17 
Squills Star Wars: Tatooine Sojurn 
Stale Humor Man Daredevil #106 Dec, 1973 
Starhawk (Stakar) (Hadji) The Defenders #27; (as "Hadji") Marvel Presents #6 (real name, Stakar, revealed in Marvel Presents #9) September 1975 
Stegor of the Eastern Sea Sub-Mariner #64 
Steve Bergen Tales of the Zombie #4 
Steve Gerber Spoof 4 (Marvel Universe: Man-Thing 22) 
Steve Griggs Tales of the Zombie #1 
Steve Rogers's Psychology Professor Captain America #223 
Stockwood Tales of the Zombie #1 
Stone Perfs (gang organization) Avengers Spotlight #30 MArch 1990 
Streiford Crazy Magazine #5 
Strength Test Man at Coney Island Defenders #31 
Stu Defenders #38 
Studley's receptionist Howard the Duck #8 
Sudd, the Scrubbing Bubble that Walks Like a Man Howard the Duck #20 
Suffa Meen Crazy Magazine #3 
Sultan Marvel Presents #6 
Super-Death Sweepstakes Announcer Defenders #28 
Super-Death Sweepstakes Panel (4 people) Defenders #28 
Sword-Wielding Giant Giant-Size Man-Thing #3 
Sybil Mills Man-Thing #11 
Sylvia (Mr. Finegold's secretary) Marvel Fanfare #57 
T. J. Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
T.D. Uss Crazy Magazine #3 
T.J. Novello Marvel Preview 16 
Tai the Slayer Giant-Size Man-Thing #3 
Takkor "He Who Cannot Die!" Giant-Size Defenders #3 
Talita Giant-Size Man-Thing #3 
Tanas of the Western Sea Sub-Mariner #64 
Tara (charge of Stakar) Defenders #29 
Tara (who can project her future self) Adventure into Fear #21 
Tarin Marvel Two-in-One #4 
Tavi (mentioned) Iron Man #56 March 1973 
Taylor Charles Defenders #35 
Taylor aka Clayton Wilson aka Force Sub-Mariner #66 (as Taylor), Sub-Mariner #68 (as Clayton Wilson/Force) 
Teddy Masterson Tales of the Zombie #6 (July, 1974) 
Teekle Daughter Defenders #21 
Telethon Host Omega the Unknown #3 
Tentacle Sister Marvel Presents #5 
Teresa Mendez Omega the Unknown # 4 
Teresa Mendez's fianc (crushed by car) Omega the Unknown #4 
Terminizer (Luis Guiterrez) Avengers Spotlight 30 (as Luis) 31 (last name revealed, cameo in costume); 36 (identity revealed) March 1990 
Terrex Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
Terri Reichter Crazy Magazine #14 
The Elf with a Gun Defenders #25 
The Goat Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
The Reavers of Arcturus Marvel Presents #9 February 1977 
The Soofi Howard the Duck #21 
The Soul-Slayers (3) Man-Thing 6 
The Spanker Marvel Treasury Edition#12 
Theodora Austere Yoxymosh Crazy Magazine #10 
Thids Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Thog the Nether-Spawn (aka Overmaster) Adventure into Fear#11 (December, 1972) 
Thomas "Tank" Tyson Omega the Unknown #2 (named #5) 
Three Nameless Guerillas (working for Mr. Six) Tales of the Zombie #5 
Thule Cloak and Dagger III #15 December, 1990 
Tick (Pakala Rodriguez) Crazy Magazine #3 
Tiffany (at Globally Branded) Howard the Duck (MAX)#1 
Tillie Bunt Howard the Duck 6/7/77 
Tillie the Hun Marvel Treasury Edition#12 
Tina Nordhoff (mentioned) Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Tockman Chamber of Chills 2 
Todd, the Undertaker of Cobbler's Roost, Vermont Defenders #20 
Tom Astrovik Giant-Size Defenders #5 
Tom MacDonald Dracula Lives! 10 
Tom Pritchett Defenders 25 
Tommy (grocery thief) Omega the Unknown #9 
Tommy (mentioned) Howard the Duck #9 
Tommy's mother (mentioned) Omega the Unknown #9 
Tompkins (police officer) Giant-Size Man-Thing#5 
Tong bretheren (3) Avengers Spotlight #36 September 1990 
Topographical Man Marvel Presents #6 
Torticola Turtlewacks Crazy Magazine #13 
Tortuga Dearth Howard the Duck #23 
Tracy Marvel Spotlight #17 
Tragg Man-Thing 5 
Travers Tales of the Zombie #2 
Trog Marvel Spotlight #23 
Trustees of the Ecological History Museum (including Tony Stark and Reed Richards) Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Turnip-Man (Arthur Winslow) Howard the Duck v1#2 
Tuumar Marvel Two-in-One #2 
Typist Howard the Duck #16 
Ulika Vuvvavoom Crazy Magazine #8 
Ullah (deity, mentioned) Marvel Presents #6 
Umberto Togarawa Crazy Magazine #3 
Uncle Sam (Winshed?) Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Ungentina Bogard Crazy Magazine #6 
Valeria Dracula Lives! 2 
Valkyrie's other cell mate Defenders #37 
Vampire Chamber of Chills 2 
Vampyrions Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Van Nyborg Defenders #20 
Vergilio Mendez Avengers Spotlight #32 (named in #33) May 1990 
Vicki of Humbabu Howard the Duck (MAX)#3 
Virago/She-Beast Sub-Mariner #64 
Vito Sangria Crazy Magazine #3 
Vivian Schist Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Voice From On High Marvel Treasury Edition #12 
Volpan (Atlantean technician) Sub-Mariner #63 
Vril Cloak and Dagger III #15 (mentioned), #16 (appeared) December 1990/February 1990 
WDUM Announcer Howard the Duck #5 
WDUM Call Screener Howard the Duck #5 
WHAP Receptionist Howard the Duck #5 
WLTA Reporter Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Wallace Howard the Duck v1#6 
Wallace Corlee Adventure into Fear 12 
Wally Defenders #31 
Wally's girlfriend (looks like Annie Christopher) Defenders #31 
Walter (unseen news anchor) Defenders Annual #1 
Walter Kallen Marvel Preview 12 
Walter Kallen's goons (2) Marvel Preview 12 
Walter Klondike Howard the Duck v1#8 
Warden of Women's Detention Facility Defenders #39 
Warlord Akilla Adventure into Fear 19 
Wauldrap Howard the Duck #7 
Wauldrop Howard the Duck #7 
Weena Karlsson Suburban Jersey Ninja She-Devils #1 
Wijid, Wizard of Bagmom Howard the Duck Annual #1 
Wilbur Unger Man-Thing Vol 1 #19 (named in # 20) 
Wilbur Wycombe Marvel Comics Presents#2/2 (mid September, 1988) 
Will Quigley Captain America #222 
Wilma Giant-Size Man-Thing #4 
Winda Wester Howard the Duck v1#11 
Winnie Avengers #178 
Winthrop Defenders #40 
Woman-Spider Tales of the Zombie #2 
Wretchetta Yoxypurg Crazy Magazine #8 
Wundarr Adventure into Fear #17 
Xavier Couture Howard the Duck v1#4 
Yopp the Elf Advenutre into Fear 15 
Yubang O'Gawannee Crazy Magazine #7 
Yucchies (3) Howard the Duck #6 
Zaar (mentioned) Giant-Size Defenders #4 
Zach (homeless bum) Omega The Unknown # 2 
Zach Spratt Crazy Magazine #3 
Zach's buddy Omega the Unknown #2 
Zaddak Man-Thing v1#1 
Zakkor Marvel Two-in-One #5 
Zapal Sub-Mariner #62 
Zargus the Warrior Sub-Mariner #64 
Zartra Sub Mariner I#66/2 (October, 1973) 
Zartra, Daughter of Queen Elanna (note: namesake character) Sub-Mariner #66 
Zelda, Nazi Werewolf (title character in skin flick) Howard the Duck #21 
Zeneg Marvel Two-in-One #2 
Zenos (mentioned) Sub-Mariner #64 
Zenti (mentioned) Man-Thing #20 
Zhered-Na Adventure into Fear 13 (mentioned), 15 (appeared) 
Zinnia Defenders #27 
Zinnia's babies (6) Defenders #27 
Zoe Daniel Man-Thing 6 
Zoid Crazy Magazine #11 
Zokk Adventure into Fear 19 (15?) 
Zoms Marvel Two-in-One #4 
Zzyzx (another elf with a gun) Howard the Duck 12/13/77 
anti-semites (6) absorbed by Cloak Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
art students at E.S.U. (alleged) (2) Cloak and Dagger III #15 December 1990 
bag lady who used to teach English lit Howard the Duck #24 
bailiff Howard the Duck #27 
baseball kid Defenders #40 
beer-guzzling neighbor of Paul Same Howard the Duck Annual #1 
blasted Indians Defenders Annual #1 
boy heckling Omega Omega the Unknown #4 
bullhead and 2 other Big Leo lackeys Marvel Comics Super Special #1 
bumpkin gangsters (3) Howard the Duck #24 
burly cook at donut shop Howard the Duck #24 
bus driver Marvel Two-in-One #1 
bus driver Howard the Duck #2 
bystander (concerned) Omega the Unknown #9 
bystander (informative) Omega the Unknown #9 
cab driver Howard the Duck #25 
captain Sub-Mariner #67 
car thief Avengers Spotlight #32 May 1990 
carpenter Defenders #34 
chauffeur for Tony Stark Iron Man Annual #3 
children (2) rescued by Yellowjacket Defenders #23 
chopper goons (2) Avengers Spotlight #34 July 1990 
chubby cop Defenders #36 
cigar-chomping skeptic Defenders #34 
combatants (2) Defenders #22 
cop Iron Man #57 April 1973 
cop in awe of Omega Omega the Unknown #2 
cop on pier Tales of the Zombie #4 
cop punched by Nick Iron Man #58 May 1973 
cops (2) arresting Valkyrie Defenders #36 
cops (6) after Hulk Omega the Unknown #2 
cowboy on TV (shoots at Howard) Howard the Duck #24 
creep hitting on Bev at wrestling match Howard the Duck #5 
crew of the Oigag (4 shown) Howard the Duck #18 
disintegrated cop Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
dissatisfied customer who mugs cook (mentioned) Howard the Duck #24 
doorman Defenders #22 
drunk defending Howard Howard the Duck #4 
drunk hitting people with her shoe Howard the Duck #4 
drunk who likes squash Howard the Duck #4 
drunkard heckling Vance Marvel Presents #3 
drunkard who knows not his name Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
elderly G.P. Iron Man Annual #3 
enthusiastic bystander Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
fair-looking helpers (2) Defenders #34 
fat man mocking Bruce Banner Omega the Unknown #2 
freak hater (scuzzy man chasing Gene and Paul) Marvel Comics Super Special #1 
gambling rich old lady Omega the Unknown #10 
gigolo Howard the Duck #19 
girl claiming to have seen Omega/Hulk battle Omega the Unknown #4 
girl who says Rasputin talks too much Iron Man #56 March 1973 
glasscutter Defenders #34 
guests at Raritan mansion Howard the Duck #25 
guys at arcade (2) Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
guys in diner (2) Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
hatchet man Defenders #41 
helicopter pilot Howard the Duck #2 (bts #1) 
homeless men (9) who attack Egghead Giant-Size Defenders #4 
hoods (3) Marvel Two-in-One #4 
hoods (3) attacking Tania Defenders #36 
hooker Howard the Duck #19 
houngan Tales of the Zombie #3 
hunter Tales of the Zombie #1 
immolated nun Marvel Presents #7 
informant about Ballistyx and his 2 buddies Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
intern with camera Howard the Duck #13 
journalists (9) Giant-Size Defenders #4 
judge at Philip Bliss's hearing Tales of the Zombie #4 
kid describing sloppy joes and chili Omega the Unknown #3 
kidnapped black man Defenders #33 
ladies (6) of El Gato Omega the Unknown #5 
landlord Defenders #36 
lieutenant Sub-Mariner #67 
mace man Defenders #41 
man asking Iron Man where Tony Stark is Iron Man Annual #3 
man beating Holliman Defenders #22 
man falling out of elevator Marvel Presents #5 
man heckling Rasputin Iron Man #56 March 1973 
man holding back news producer Iron Man #56 March 1973 
man in overalls heckling Sam Howard the Duck #5 
man pouring soda on Rasputin Iron Man #56 
man sitting behind Hulk Defenders #34 
mobsters (3) attacking Cage Defenders #37 
more outraged Marvelites Howard the Duck #16 
mother Marvel-Two-in-One #9 
mother of three Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
muggers (5) brutally beaten by Black Widow Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
neighbor to Betty Dean Prentiss Sub-Mariner #61 
neighbor-lady Howard the Duck #4 
newly-freed child Marvel Presents #3 
news producer Iron Man #56 March 1973 
newscaster Daredevil #101 July, 1973 
nightstick cop Howard the Duck #18 
nurse Giant-Size Defenders #4 
onlooker who thinks Howard is in shock Howard the Duck #18 
outraged Marvelites (4) Howard the Duck #16 
paperboy Defenders #40 
paramedic Omega the Unknown #5 
partner of security guard hit by eyebeam Howard the Duck #13 
pawn shop clerk on the planet of the absurd Marvel Presents #5 
police (3) who shoot Sam Omega the Unknown #10 
police (4) at scene of David's murder Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
police chief Defenders #36 
police detective Howard the Duck #11 
primitive human Marvel Presents #3 
printing plate guards (2) Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
pusher Howard the Duck #19 
records clerk Captain America #222 
redhead corpse Cloak and Dagger III #15 December 1990 
reporter Defenders #39 
reporter (African-American) Defenders Annual #1 
rivet gun operator Defenders #35 
sailor Sub-Mariner #67 
scrawny Hispanic man Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
sea serpent Howard the Duck #15 
seaman Tales of the Zombie #2 
security guard hit with Starchild's eyebeam Howard the Duck #13 
shooter Howard the Duck #15 
skeptical taxi driver Defenders #22 
soundtech Man-Thing #17 
stocking-head rednecks (3) Defenders #40 
stone warriors (2) Howard the Duck #1 
surviving Indian Defenders Annual #1 
talkative passenger Captain America #223 
tall old man Captain America #221 
taxi driver Sub-Mariner #61 
tobacconist Avengers Spotlight #32 May 1990 
vengeful bystander Avengers Spotlight #30 March 1990 
waiter Captain America #223 
warden at the federal pen Captain America #223 
warrior who hits head on rock Howard the Duck #1 
wealthy woman who models for Paul Same Howard the Duck #25 
were-dog Howard the Duck #1 
woman Cage mistakes for Val and her boyfriend Defenders #39 
youths sent to kill Cloak Cloak and Dagger III #15 (at least four executed in #16) December 1990 
zoo cops (2) Defenders #35

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 01:49 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

This only lists the characters' FIRST appearance. Some appeared only once, many died, but many made repeat appearances. 
 
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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 05:14 pm
By jephyork
Director

For MCP purposes, can you strip out all characters that are never named, or that only made one appearance? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Oct 2005 09:30 am    
By scottandrewhutchins

Bascially, if a character has a first and last name, he or she was probably an important character in the story. Probably the most important one-named civillian from Gerber is Dian, who first appeared in Omega #2, appeared in most issues of the run, and in the Foolkiller and Omega issues of Defenders. 

Albert Manners Marvel Spotlight #18 
Aleta Defenders #29 
All-Night Party (political organization) Howard the Duck #7 
All-Night Party Chairman Howard the Duck #7 
Allatou Marvel Spotlight #18 
Allex "Dan" Crandall Marvel Spotlight #16 
Allison Hayes Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Alvin Denton Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Amber Grant Omega The Unknown # 1 
Amy Pope Howard the Duck #19 
Ananta The Rampaging Hulk #9 
Andy Kale Adventure into Fear 11 
Angar the Screamer (David Angar) Daredevil #100 June, 1973 
Animus Captain America #222 
Anita Guiterrez Avengers Spotlight #31 April 1990 
Annie Christopher (friend to Namorita) Marvel Two-in-One #4 
Antonio Moreno Avengers Spotlight #32 (named in #33) May 1990 
Arem-Set or Aram-Set Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Ariel the Musician Sub-Mariner #64 
Arthur Richmond Defenders #32 
Ashley "Sandy" Sanders Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
Astrid Josefsen Man-Thing Vol 1 #16 
Atlan The Rampaging Hulk #8 
Augie Slater Avengers Spotlight #31 April 1990 
Avandalia Cloak & Dagger III #16 February 1991 
Ayla Prentiss Man-Thing 5 
Balkatar Adventure into Fear 21 
Bambi Defenders #31 
Baphomet Marvel Spotlight 15 
Barbara (nurse) Howard the Duck #12 
Baron Von Dupnik Man-Thing Vol 1 #16 
Beaver (Pierre Dentifris) Howard the Duck v1#9 
Becky Rainbow Marvel Two-in-One #8 
Bellboy from the Plaza Hotel Howard the Duck v1#9 
Beverly "Lee" Switzler Howard the Duck #20 (named in #21) 
Beverly Switzler Howard the Duck #1 
Bishru (invoked deity) first mentioned Sub-Mariner #62 
Byron Hyatt Marvel Spotlight 15 
Bzzk'Joh, Son of Sombra Howard the Duck #22 
Candace Nelson Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
Capitan Shield Man-Thing 8 
Captain Fate Man-Thing I#13 (January, 1975) 
Captain James Matson Man-Thing #13 
Captain of the Oigag Howard the Duck #18 
Captain of the S.S. Damned Howard the Duck #15 
Caretakers Adventure into Fear 21 
Carol Selby Man-Thing Vol 1 #18 
Carolyn Schist Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Cecil (nurse) Howard the Duck #12 
Celestia Denton Defenders #20 
Chris Marvel Fanfare #56 
Chris Sanders Man-Thing Vol 1 #19 
Christine Sandt Marvel Spotlight #20 
Christopher Dale Monsters Unleashed 8 
Ciceron Tales of the Zombie #2 
Commander Ogord Marvel Presents #9 February 1977 
Congress of Realities (most individuals unnamed) Man-Thing v1#1 
Convent of Living Fire (organization) Marvel Presents #6 
Cop Fighting Death-Stalker Daredevil #115 Nov. 1974 
Dakimh the Enchanter Adventure into Fear 14 
Dallas Kerr Marvel Comics Presents 60 
Danielle (Dani) Nicolle Man-Thing Vol 1 #20 
Darby (Ernest Logan) of the Skull-Crushers Man-Thing 2 
Dawg Man-Thing 9 
Death-Stalker (new Gerber-created identity for Phillip Wallace Sterling aka The Exterminator) Daredevil #113 Sept. 1974 
Deena Marvel Fanfare #56 
Destiny Marvel Two-in-One #6 (not one of the namesakes already listed) 
Detective Lieutenant Alex Quinn Marvel Spotlight #16 
Detective Suzi Pazuzu Howard the Duck (MAX)#2 
Devil of the Tarot Marvel Spotlight #20 
Dian Omega the Unknown # 3 
Dibbuk Omega the Unknown #10 
Dirk Mantooth Marvel Fanfare #56 
Dizzie the Hun Marvel Comics Super Special #1 
Doctor Bong (Lester Verde) Howard the Duck 15 
Doctor Skarab Supernatural Thrillers 5 
Doa Valencia Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 2 
Dr. Abe Dansker Omega the Unknown # 5 
Dr. Alcaraz Marvel Comics Presents 61 
Dr. Ames Marvel Spotlight #16 
Dr. Angst, Master of Mundane Mysticism Marvel Treasury Edition#12 
Dr. Anton Cartier Tales of the Zombie #2 
Dr. Avery Howard the Duck #12 
Dr. Carroll Harter Supernatural Thrillers 7 
Dr. Charles Laing (chair, Empire State University Department of Journalism) Daredevil #113 Sept. 1974 
Dr. Damon Walthers Sub-Mariner #66 
Dr. Dane Gavin Giant-Size Man-Thing #2 
Dr. Dorothy Betz The Rampaging Hulk #9 (first named in Marvel Fanfare #56) 
Dr. Guy Lillian Iron Man #58 May 1973 
Dr. Heller Man-Thing Vol 1 #18 
Dr. Henry Croft Sub-Mariner #61 (unidentified Dr. Hydro victim)/Sub Mariner #68 (named) 
Dr. Hydro Sub-Mariner #61 
Dr. James Wynter Giant-Size Defenders #4 
Dr. Juden Bardham The Rampaging Hulk #8 
Dr. Juliann Quinn Freddy Krueger's A Nightmare on Elm Street 1 
Dr. Katherine Reynolds Marvel Spotlight 14 
Dr. Laslo Schact Man-Thing 6 
Dr. Maura Spinner Man-Thing #13 
Dr. Reich (Adolf Hitler) Howard the Duck #13 
Dr. Thomas Barrow Omega The Unknown # 1 
Dr. Wilfred Noble, Chair, Gateway University Department of Psychiatry Marvel Spotlight #18 
Dreyfuss Gultch Howard the Duck v1#7 
Duff Coogan Marvel Two-in-One #6 
Dunstan Quobrox Howard the Duck v1#8 
Ebrok the Sorceror Adventure into Fear 22 
Edward Nelson Daredevil #108 Mar. 1974 
El Gato Omega the Unknown#4 (September, 1976) 
Elaine Dale Monsters Unleashed #8 
Elaine Parrish Monsters Unleashed #8 
Elanna, widow of Tanas Sub-Mariner #64/2 August, 1973 
Elena Defenders #22 
Elena's daughter Defenders #22 
Elsbeth Duhl Man-Thing #21 
Emlot Daredevil #105 Nov, 1973 
Emperor Goozot and his three wives Defenders #27 
Enrique Moreno Avengers Spotlight #31 April 1990 
Eric Hennig Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
Exo-Mind (actual) The Rampaging Hulk #8; (behind the scenes, according to RH #8) Marvel Presents I#1 (October, 1975); 
Eye of Force/Schamballah Neo-Nazis (organization) Cloak and Dagger III #14 October 1990 
Ezekiel "Zeke" Tork Man-Thing #9 
Father Darklyte Marvel Spotlight #23 
Ferdinand "Ferdie" Flynn, Man of Action Giant-Size Defenders #5 
Ferdinand "Foxy" Pertierra Marvel Comics Presents 63 
Foolkiller (Greg Salinger) Omega the Unknown #9 (1976) (cameo in #8 by Roger Stern) 
Foolkiller (Kurt Gerhardt) Foolkiller #1 (1990) 
Foolkiller (Ross G. Everbest [named by Roger Stern]) Man-Thing #3 (1974) 
Franklin Armstrong Schist Adventure Into Fear 16 
French (Martin Small) of the Skull-Crushers Man-Thing 2 
French businessman Defenders Annual #1 
G. Q. Studley Howard the Duck v1#8 
Gene Gretch Tales of the Zombie #4 
General Roderick Berglund Cloak and Dagger III #15 December 1990 
George Teekle (neighbor of Dr. Arthur Nagan) Defenders #21 (last name given in Defenders #34) 
Gramps Omega the Unknown 2 
Gremlin Sub-Mariner #61 
Grott, The Man-Slayer Giant-Size Defenders #3 
Harold Holliman Defenders #22 
Harold Sipid Crazy Magazine #3 
Hawk-God Marvel Presents #9 February 1977 
Headmen (organization consisting of Dr. Arthur Nagan, Chondu, Dr. Jerry Morgan, and Ruby Thursday--only the latter character originated with Gerber) Defenders #21 
Hektu Adventure into Fear 17 
Hellbird Daredevil #99 May 1973 
Howard the Duck Adventure into Fear #19 
I Adventure into Fear 23 
Ian Whippingham Howard the Duck (MAX)#3 
Ibbar the Scholar Sub-Mariner #64 
Ignatz Hubley Howard the Duck #26 
Ikthalon Marvel Spotlight 14 
Ipsis Giant-Size Man-Thing #3 
Iris Raritan Howard the Duck #25 
J.C. Pennysworth Defenders #25 


I'm on break at work, and this is as far as I got.

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Thread 24

Posted: 15 Oct 2005 06:19 pm    Post subject: More X-Factor madness...
By metaldragon

I see you have ST2 18, C&D3 1, C&D3 2, XF@ 3, and M/AGE@ 4 between XF 28 and XF 29. While I dont know about M/AGE@ 4, the rest of those issues show Ship floating over the water next to Manhattan. Ship didnt move from where it crashed (in XF 25) until XF 29. I propose those issues belong between XF 29 & 30. To strengthen my arguement for this placement, here are my brief analyses of those issues: 

XF 28: Apocalypses ship (grounded on the old X-Factor building) attacks X-Factor and trainees while Cyclops is at the airport waiting for his flight to Dallas (to ask Freedom Force about his son). Beast is suffering from the effects of Pestilences touch, which has been making him stronger and dumber since XF 19. Cyclops sees the news and returns in time to help them fight the ship. The Artie discovers that the ship is sentient, the trainees free Ship from Apocalypses mind control device, and X-Factor disposes of a timebomb. X-Factor holds press conference about what just happened. Infectia introduced; takes man home from bar. 

XF 29: Infectias mutated date dies over-exerting himself. X-Factor hold another press conference that they are moving Ship out over the water offshore of Manhattan. The trainees stay onshore along with Beast & Trish Tilby while Ship moves out to sea with Cyclops, Iceman, and Marvel Girl. Cyclops prepares to leave again on his aborted mission to find his son but Infectia sends her Anti-bodies to attack X-Factor and take over the Ship. Cyclops, Iceman, and Marvel Girl defeat the Anti-bodies who turn to dust. Infectia sees it all through her telescope and chooses her next target: Iceman. 

ST2 18, C&D3 1, and C&D3 2: Ship is clearly shown hovering near Manhattan. Night calls X-Factor to fight the possesed Dagger. On p.14 of ST2 18 Iceman uses Ships video link to talk to Marvel Girl and says, Hi, Jean - sorry to disturb you, but theres some sort of mutant emergency back here! I realize the importance of your present mission, but--* She replies, Say no more, Bobby. Scotts gone on ahead-- Ill have to leave a note to tell him where Ive gone! The special note below that says: *For details on the Beasts Condition, and X-Factors current mission, see X-Factor #28. -Carl (Comics-Are-My-Life) Potts. I notice that it dosent specificly state that Beast, Iceman, Marvel Girl, and Ships appearances here take place between XF 28 & 29. This is simply a reference to ongoing plotline that began in XF 28 (and continues to XF 31). The fact that Ship dosent move off the ground until XF 29 means these issues have to come after that issue but before Cyclops and Marvel Girl finally leave for Dallas in XF 30. 

XF@ 3: Ship is clearly shown hovering over water (after XF 29). All 4 X-Factor members are still together and Beast is still suffering from Pestilences touch (so before XF 30). X-Factor is shown helping work crews repair the Empire State Building (Ship damaged it in XF 25, it was still damaged in XF 27, repairs had not started on it yet there). 

M/AGE@ 4: Sorry, Im missing this issue. Anyone know what happens in it? Is Ship present, sentient, on the ground or hovering? Are all 4 members of X-Factor present? Is Beast still non-furry and dumb? Does it continue on from the story from XF@ 3? 

XF 30: Infectia is spying on them through her telescope. No mention of how much time has passed between the end of XF 29 and the opening of XF 30. She appears to be wearing similar but slightly different clothes from XF 29. Beast and the trainees are shown back on board and Ship has built some special aircraft. Cyclops and Marvel Girl finally leave for Dallas, TX on their mission to find Cyclops son. Iceman and Beast later go into Manhattan. Cyclops and Marvel Girl find Freedom Force in Dallas. Beast sees Infectia mutate a policeman and she takes him to the bar where Iceman is. Iceman defeats the Anti-body policeman who turns to dust. Infectia convinces him to take her to see the Ship much to Beasts dismay. 

This story continues directly into XF 31 where the trainees spend half the issue preventing Infectia from kissing Iceman. The next day when Infectia takes Iceman to her lab, Beast follows and saves Iceman from her by intercepting her kiss. He mutates briefly into his furry look, partially mutates back, and then slips into a coma he dosent wake from until XF 33 where he finally turns furry again and regains his intelligence. Cyclops and Marvel Girl get some cryptic clues from Destiny in Dallas and return to Ship sometime before XF 32. 

This change affects Beast, Cyclops, Iceman, and Marvel Girls chronologies. 


As a footnote... I nearly forgot XF@ 3/2: I see you placed it before the first story in XF@ 3 in Beasts chronology. As far as I can remember, it could take place anytime after the trainees freed Ships mind (XF 28) and before Beast met Infectia (XF 30-31). [Edit: I couldn't remember where the album came from originally. I re-read it again so now this bit has been corrected...] Beast mentions that the photoalbum was recovered from the rubble of the X-Factor building, so it has to take place after XF 29 when Ship moved off of it and Ship is clearly shown floating above water. Since "Changes!" physically comes after the first story in XF@ 3, I dont see why it couldnt come after it chronologicly as well. Does anyone know why its placed before on here? Any change in its placement would affect Beast, Firefist/Rusty Collins, Boom Boom/Boomer/Meltdown, Skids, Rictor, Artie Maddicks, and Leechs chronologies. (Does Ship have its own chronology? You know, Ive never checked! Its sentient, so maybe it should.) 

[edit: I checked, and yes Ship does have an entry! It's very incomplete though. Would you guys like me to list it's appearances in X-Factor somewhere here?]
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 04 Feb 2006 06:40 pm; edited 10 times in total

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Posted: 15 Oct 2005 08:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

In Marvel Age Annual #3, all four X-Factor members are present, the Beast is still non-furry, and Ship is airborn -- but it's flying over Madripoor. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 19 Oct 2005 01:46 pm    Post subject: Horror Handbook notes
By Enda80

Well, they made an attempt to deal with Jack the Ripper. It turns out that they settled on a solution similar to the film The Hidden with Kyle MachLachlan. 

Basically, the Ripper is a possessing entity that jumps from body to body. So it has similarities to Venom's symbiote. 

Aside from that, the entry feferences the Journey Into Mystery II#2 story about John Carmody/"Yours Truly, Jack the Ripper". 

Shuma-Gorath's entry treats all the Shuma-Gorath appearances under one entity. 

Terror is treated as the same entity as Shreck. 

Werewolf by Night's entry treats the Gregor Russoff from those Saga of the High Evolutionary back-ups as a separate person from the father of Jack Russell.

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 08:56 am    Post subject: Bill Nelson
By Darci

On http://www.chronologyproject.com/n.htm it lists: 
NELSON, BILL 
TIGRA 1-FB 

William Nelson was a rookie Chicago policeman and husband of Greer Grant Nelson, who (after his death) became first the Cat and later Tigra. The flashback in the first issue of the "Tigra" mini-series should be contemporaneous with the flashback in the first issue of "The Cat" (see http://www.chronologyproject.com/t.htm#TIGRA). He also appeared in a flashback in "The Cat" issue #2. It also was contemporaneous. All three flashbacks illustrate Greer Grant meeting and marrying, then losing Bill. "The Cat" #1 shows them in that order, "The Cat" #2 shows their wedding and his shooting, and "Tigra" #1 shows their first date and her identification of his body at the morgue. 
I think this should be: 
NELSON, BILL 
CAT 1-FB 
CAT 2-FB 
TIGRA 1-FB 
Hope this helps, 
Darci

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Thread 27

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 10:34 am    Post subject: Joanne Tumulo     
By Darci

On http://www.chronologyproject.com/t.htm it lists: 
TUMOLO, DR. JOANNE 
CAT 1-FB 
CAT 2 
CAT 3-FB 
GSCR 1 
MU 10/3 

In addition, Dr. Tumulo was in: 
"Marvel Chillers" 3 (Feb 76) 
"Marvel Chillers" 6 (Aug 76) 
"Marvel Two-In-One" 19 (Sep 76) in a flashback to Tigra's origin 
"Marvel Premiere" 42 (Jun 78), in which the doctor dies, so it must her last appearance. 
"West Coast Avengers" series 6 (Mar 86) in a flashback to Tigra's origin 

I'd recommend something like this: 
TUMOLO, DR. JOANNE 
CAT 1-FB 
M/CHL 3-FB 
M/TIO 19-FB 
WCA2 6-FB 
CAT 2 
CAT 3-FB 
GSCR 1 
MU 10/3 
[M/CHL 6] 
M/PRM 42 

Hope this helps, 
Darci

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Thread 28

Posted: 24 Oct 2005 01:32 pm    Post subject: Wolverine in Crimson Dawn #1
By Paul O'Brien
Director

PSYLOCKE & ARCHANGEL: CRIMSON DAWN #1 is presently listed twice in Wolverine's entry - once in a lengthy gap between WOLVERINE vol 2 #114-115, which sounds reasonably plausible, and once between WOLVERINE vol 2 #115-116. Quite aside from the fact that I don't believe he appears multiple times in CD #1, that's smack in the middle of Operation: Zero Tolerance. Is this really correct?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Oct 2005 03:29 pm    
By Somebody

IIRC, yeah, he only appears once in CD - to give an excuse to recap Angel & Psylocke's histories. 

I'm presuming that someone was working on the basis that when Iceman & Cecelia Rayes go to Warren's flat in the XM ZT issues, Angel & Psylocke aren't home (assuming they were taking part in the CD mini then), then they corrected it and forgot to remove the original listing.

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 26 Oct 2005 08:09 pm    Post subject: Q 50 addition & question
By RLG

Power Princess appears in this issue, specifically on the last panel (40p2). She is standing beside the Living Mummy and is identified by her headband, dark hair, and costume. Therefore: 

POWER PRINCESS/ZARDA 
Q 21 
** Q 50 
Q 51 

The Thing and Human Torch's appearance (same panel) is currently listed as being AFTER FF 375. However, the Thing's face appears unharmed in Q 50. Given that Wolverine seriously injured Ben's face in FF 374, shouldn't Ben and Johnny's appearance be sometime BEFORE FF 374? 

The correct placement of their appearance is a bit up-in-the-air, since (other than the lack of injury or helmet) there are no other clues. However, it would have to occur AFTER FF 370, which marks the end of the Infinity War. 

- RLG

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Thread 30

Posted: 26 Oct 2005 06:40 pm    Post subject: Heavy Metal
By captamr

In the Heavy Metal saga, which runs through A 286  A 290, some additions are needed to the villains. 
The story reveals that during the Masters of Evils assault on Avengers mansion (#273 277), the Super-Adaptoid was released from the sub basement during the battle, encountered the Fixer, imitated him and replaced him back in a containment tube to facilitate his escape. These revelations were explained through the Metal saga with certain hazy facts. The Fixer is last seen in A 276 being clobbered by Ant-Man. Hes not in A 277. The switch between he and the Adaptoid is revealed in a FB in A 287. Nothing indicates in what order the switch occurred before or after being captured by Ant-Man. One must assume that a now disguised Adaptoid escapes custody to continue his ultimate plan. This requires a few changes: 

FIXER II 
A 276 
*A 277  omit 
*A 287  FB ( pg. 21, pn. 5) 
A 287 

SUPER-ADAPTOID 
M/TIO 75 
*A 277  BTS (change to A 276?, if one assumes the change came before the capture) 
A 287  FB 
A 286 

Finally, the Awesome Androids appearances seem to be missing: 

AWESOME ANDROID 
CA 311 
*A 286 
*A 287 
*A 289 
HFH 1
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 07:06 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

There is a mistake in the Fixer's listing, but not of the nature you're proposing. 

According to the Official Index, the Fixer is behind the scenes in A 277, so we need to change that. 

The Index says that the Fixer and Super-Adaptoid appear in the flashback in A 287 (where the Fixer discovers the imprisoned Super-Adaptoid) after their behind-the-scenes appearance in A 277, so we'll stand behind what we have listed. 

While the Super-Adaptoid does appear in A 286 disguised as the Fixer, I'm not aware of anything to suggest he does so in A 277. 

Quote: 
>>>
Nothing indicates in what order the switch occurred before or after being captured by Ant-Man. 
<<<

Not entirely accurate. As I said, the Index indicates the order. 


watching: virginia v north carolina

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 08:38 pm    
By captamr

Quote: 
>>>
As I said, the Index indicates the order 
<<<

Ahh, the omnipotent Index strikes again!! 

Agreed, once the order of events is established the Fixer and Adaptoid must both be behind the scenes.
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 31

Posted: 06 Sep 2005 09:25 pm    Post subject: TOS 73-74 & ST 138-140
By Dhall

Can someone explain how Tony Stark can appear in ST 138-140, in between TOS 73 and 74 (where he is unconcious between issues?) I'm assuming this is due to an error in the MCP listing. Anyone?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2005 07:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

ST 138-140 (and 143) are being moved to just prior to TOS 69. 


watching: a dog drinking milk from a 5-gallon pail

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 07:54 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good call, D. I'll update the Avengers Year-By-Year list accordingly (and maybe, just maybe, someday the updates will be posted...)
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 32

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 08:13 am    Post subject: Characters in Dormammu's reality
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've been reading the latest Defenders series, in which Dormammu steals some of Eternity's power and remakes reality. At first, I thought this was a situation like that of House of M, in which characters appear as altered versions of themselves. But I'm not sure that's true here. The way I see it, we have one of these two scenarios: 

1) All MU characters (except Strange, Namor, Hulk, and the Surfer) actually become altered versions of themselves, ala HOM. New doppelganger versions of Strange, Namor, Banner, and (perhaps) the Surfer are created by Dormammu. In those three or four cases, we have two versions of the characters -- the originals and the doppelgangers. For everyone else seen in altered form, it's an actual appearance of the original character. 

2) All MU characters (except Strange, Namor, Hulk, and the Surfer) are wiped out by the altered reality and doppelgangers replace everybody, include the "big four" Defenders. Appearances by doppelgangers do not count as appearances by the original characters on which they're based. 

In either event, we have doppelgangers here. We can either ignore them in the MCP (since they're unlikely to make appearances anywhere else) or we can figure out how to list them. 

Opinions?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 08:40 am    
By Somebody

I say 2.

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Thread 33

Posted: 24 Oct 2005 11:35 pm    Post subject: X-Men Timeline
By wolframbane

Currently I am working on an X-Men Timeline (in time, it may expand to encompass other Marvel titles as well). A special thanks goes out to Paul Bourcier and his Marvel Calendar, as well as Chris Miller and his Unauthorized Chronology of the DC Universe, both of which were incredible inspirations for this work. Another important work cited is the Marvel Index series, which acts as the blueprint for the layout of the first decade or so. 

http://www.geocities.com/johnston_portfolio/xmentimeline.html 

I utilize two listings for the timeline, a 'real time' year (1985, etc) and a 'Marvel Year' (Year 1, etc). I have the beginning of the Marvel Age set at Year 1 with Fantastic Four #1, Year 2 with Amazing Fantasy #15 (Spider-Man), and Year 3 with X-Men #1. 

For the purposes of workability until the Timeline progresses far enough so that I can accurately determine how many years have actually passed in 'Marvel Time', I am using 1981 as 'Year 1' and so forth, and 1980 as 'Year Zero' and working backwards. This is just a temporary measure, and will be rectified as the timeline progresses. 

There is a black bar down the left hand column of the Timeline. Any listings that occur in 'real time' (such as historical events) are indicated with a white bar. Any listings that occur in 'Marvel Time' are indicated with a black bar. At the bottom there is a key indicating what comics the abbreviations stand for. 

Thus far, the timeline only encompasses the life of Professor X, Legion and Gabrielle Haller, from their births up to and including Year 3. As the Timeline develops, I will note here whenever an update occurs. I will be 'filling out' the early years of the timeline first with character backgrounds, and then proceeding forwards with the X-Men stories themselves. 

Any feedback/suggestions/comments/critiquing would be appreciated. Thanks to you all for any help you offer.

Last edited by wolframbane on 26 Oct 2005 11:02 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 08:52 pm    
By wolframbane

Updated with bio of Iceman.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 09:57 pm    
By Jason Doty

The flashback in UX 300 needs to be moved just prior to UX 1 because the flashback takes place in Scotland and prior to Magneto taking over the military instulation.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2005 05:49 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hi, wolframbane. Glad to see you're making progress on your X-calendar. 

Just wanted to let you know at this point (before it becomes a problem) that, if you're seeking to be consistent with the Indexes (as I am), the X-Men form in the fall of Peter Parker's senior year of high school. Because Parker becomes Spider-Man in the spring of his sophomore year, then UX 1 must occur the year after AAF 15, not the same year. 

Also, I believe the FF formed during the year before AAF 15, not that same year. So if you're labeling the year of FF 1 as "Year 1," then AAF 15 occurs during "Year 2," and UX 1 during "Year 3." 

This looks like a fun project!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2005 10:44 pm    
By wolframbane

Updated with bio info for Toad, Hazard and Juggernaut, additional info for Prof X. Thanks to Jason Doty for the proper placement of UXM 300.

Last edited by wolframbane on 26 Oct 2005 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 10:49 pm    
By wolframbane

Thanks to Paul Borcier for the advice on fixing the Timeline to having the X-Men first appear in Yr 3. Looking back and fixing it now saved me a lot of hassle later. This is definitely a fun project!!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 08:26 am    
By Jason Doty

Your Thor Corps entry reads as such: 
Quote: 
>>>
The Thor Corps, traveling across numerous timelines to battle Demonstaff and Warlord Kargul, briefly encounter the X-Men. 
<<<

It should read: 

Durring an X-Men training session, a medievil knight appears and is apprehended by confused X-Men. The knight appears due to the Thor Corps battle with Demonstaff and Warlord Kargul whose battles are affecting the timelines.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 11:20 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Guys, let's take corrections to other websites to email, where you can notify the webmaster directly, rather than using our forum. 


watching: live from

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Thread 34

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: Sgt. Tork
By captamr

Sgt. Tork continues to follow the Sin-Eater and Spider-Man around: 

TORK, SGT. 
PPTSS 128 
*PPTSS 135 
*PPTSS 136 
BP3 2
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject: Man-Thing and Centurius
By scottandrewhutchins

According to the Marvel Universe Master Edition, Centurius made the following appearances: 

XF@ 3/3-FB 
RH 6/2 
RH 8/2 

The RH issues take place after those listed, the XF@ story takes place in the 1930s. I'm surprised a character with so few appearances rated an entry, especially when a character with five major roles and one cameo like Scarecrow II didn't rate one. 

Man-Thing appeared in a text story in Monsters Unleashed #8 and #9. This story is referenced in DD 113, when Richard Rory says that Ted Sallis's shack has been the site of several recent deaths. The footnote says this occurred in TOTZ 6, but that isn't possible. TOTZ 6 depicts only one death, and the shack in that story is a day's walk from New Orleans, not only for Simon Garth but also for Layla, an ordinary woman. 
The Man-Thing story in MU 8 & 9 is called "Several Meaningless Deaths." It deals with a writer named Christopher Dale, whose wife, Elaine, was recently killed by a mugger. Another Elaine, a teenager, enters the cabin looking for Ted. Her father, Samuel Parrish, thinks that Dale is Sallis and wants to kill him. None of these characters survive the story. This story is by Steve Gerber, who was writing Daredevil, Man-Thing, and Zombie at the time, and clearly just made a mistake in the footnote, since the deaths of Dale and the Parrishes are obviously what Richard Rory is referring to in DD 113. That places the two issues in continuity between MOKF 19 (probably--when this occurs in M-T's chronology is a bit muddy) and DD 113. 

Other unlisted Man-Thing appearances include a panel on the first page of Exiles #10. Man-Thing is also currently appearing in Nightcrawler volume 3, starting with issue 9.

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 12:32 pm    Post subject: Hellstorm
By scottandrewhutchins

How could GSDEF 2 take place between M/SPT 21 and 22? He was knocked unconscious at the end of 21 and taken away by the police. Most of 22 is a dream sequence while he is in the police station. 


M/SPT 13 
M/SPT 14 
M/SPT 15 
M/SPT 16 
M/SPT 17 
M/SPT 18 
M/SPT 19 
M/SPT 20 
M/SPT 21 
GSDEF 2 
M/SPT 22 
M/TU 32 
DEF 24 
DEF 25 
DEF 32 
M/SPT 23 
M/SPT 24

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Thread 37

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: Guardians of the Galaxy
By scottandrewhutchins

This series isn't even listed in the key, let alone entries for the Guardians members. Why is that?

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:22 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Because it is an alternate future, and thus, not a priority for the MCP at this time. Eventually we may get around to detailing a chronology for it, but that's probably not going to happen anytime soon...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Flashback appearance for Prof X
By wolframbane

Professor X appeared in a flashback in UX 180. It depicts him playing basketball during his high school year. He decides that his telepathy gives him an unfair advantage over the other team and decides to quit. This is probably connected to when he quits the track team in UX 12 for the same reason.

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Thread 39

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: order correction: Man-Thing
By scottandrewhutchins

M-T 15 
GSS-M 5 
M-T 16 
GSM-T 4 


M-T 17 refers to GSM-T 4 taking place the afternoon after M-T 16, while the story arc from 17 to the last issue is too continuous to allow for the disruption of GSS-M 5. 

Also, The listings for GSM-T 5 don't list the story number. GSM-T 5/1 takes place before Savage Tales 1. 

Otherwise, the listing should appear... 

M-T 15 
GSS-M 5 
M-T 16 
GSM-T 4 
M-T 17 
M-T 18 
GSM-T 5/2 
M-T 19 
M-T 20 
M-T 21 
M-T 22 
GSM-T 5/3 
GSM-T 5/4 
M/PRM 28 

Howard the Duck's GSM-T5 appearance should be GSM-T 5/5, assuming we don't count the conclusion of the frame story (GS-MT 5/1) as part 5.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 12:34 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

scottandrewhutchins wrote: 
>>>
M-T 15 
GSS-M 5 
M-T 16 
GSM-T 4 

M-T 17 refers to GSM-T 4 taking place the afternoon after M-T 16, while the story arc from 17 to the last issue is too continuous to allow for the disruption of GSS-M 5. 
<<<

You've already posted this. 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1615 


watching: auburn v mississippi

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 12:41 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

Right, but the current order was different when I posted it. I thought somebody interpreted me wrong.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 01:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, that's true, so far as it goes, but the change you're speaking of was based on another post, by you: 

Quote: 
>>>
The chronology currently lists GSS-M 5 taking place between M-T 18 and 19. This can't be correct. At the end of M-T 18, Richard Rory, Man-Thing, and Carole Selby get into a van and drive to Atlanta, and at the beginning of M-T 19, Man-Thing is walking the streets of Atlanta at night. Since this storyline begins with M-T 16, follows in GSM-T 4, and continues basically uninterrupted from M-T 17-22, and as GSS-M 5 is set in Man-Thing's swamp, that the issue must be set between M-T 15 & 16. 
<<<

Did we misinterpret? 

The issue of whether this is one story or multiple stories was also decided, in that same thread. 


watching: auburn v mississippi

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 01:24 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

For one thing M-T 16 comes BEFORE GSM-T 4, not after, as currently listed. That's the main thing. The other was just the breakup of GSM-T #5.

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 03:43 pm    Post subject: Captain America
By Dhall

A 34 
A 35 
A 36 
A 37 
A 38 
TOS 88/2 
FF 57 ?????? 
TOS 89/2 
TOS 90/2 
A 40 
TOS 91/2 

I can't find a trace of Cap in FF 57, am I missing something? Also in between TOS 88/2 and 89/2 Cap is a prisoner of the Red Skull and not really avaiable to make guest appearances. 

Dave

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 04:05 pm   
By Paul Bourcier
Director
 
According to the Official Index to the Fantastic Four, Cap is on television in FF 57. The Index gives no before and after placement for Cap, but you're right -- there's no opportunity for Cap to appear on TV between TOS 88/2 and 89/2. We may have to move this TV appearance after TOS 91/2, the conclusion of that Red Skull story arc.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 04:34 pm    
By Dhall

ok, Cap is on TV. The Thing is watching, we can see Cap and his shield in the corner. 

Thing says" Hey this Marvel Super-Heroes Show is the Living End!, but if you ask me some of the stories are too far out." 

That kind of implies fiction to me... 

but even if it's not, then it can't happen between TOS 88/2 and 89/2.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 04:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

By coincidence, I've been auditing that period of Fantastic Four this week, and I'm debating whether that appearance should be removed. Ben is watching Captain America in an episode of "Marvel Super-Heroes", an obvious reference to the syndicated cartoon that featured Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Sub-Mariner, and I believe, either Daredevil, or Hulk, and was being broadcast at the time the book was published. Is it possible that's not the real Captain America, but simply a dramatization? 


watching: florida v georgia

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 06:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sounds that way to me. I say, let's scratch it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 06:57 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Agree. If that's the only appearance of Captain America, and it's clearly a reference to a real-world cartoon, then scratch it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Oct 2005 08:07 am    
By jephyork
Director

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT THE INDEX!!!!!1 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2005 08:53 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT THE INDEX!!!!!1  
<<<

Easily ignored. Cap's appearance in FF 57 is classified in the Index as a "cameo," which, IIRC, was defined in the early indexes as a visual representation of a character, not necessarily an actual appearance by that character. That there are no before and after appearances for Cap listed in that Index makes this definition of a cameo all the more likely.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2005 10:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

Sorry, I'm in a pranksterish mood at the moment. As a matter of fact, despite what I've said in the past, the "follow the Index/Handbook" mentality is slowly growing on me. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Oct 2005 11:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Oh, well in that case we're not even ignoring the Index. A "Cameo Appearance" listing generally covered things like the character appearing on a poster or a T-shirt.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Oct 2005 11:16 am    
By Enda80

Marvel Team-Up Index would list cameos for people such as Carroll O'Conner when someone was shown watching All In the Family. I don't see Caroll O'Conner getting an entry here.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2005 12:09 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

That would be slightly different because, as a live-action show, the TV would be showing video footage of the actors. If those actors (or talk show hosts, or whatever) have appeared often enough to merit a listing, then their appearance on a TV screen should logically be included. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure this is an issue for anyone other than David Letterman. But why should his appearances as a generic TV chat show host be treated any differently from Trish Tilby's many appearances as an Exposition Newsreader?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 41

Posted: 30 Oct 2005 08:18 pm    Post subject: ST 160-167
By Dhall

YELLOW CLAW ROBOT 
ST 160-FB-BTS 
**ST 161-FB-BTS 
*{ST 161} (in the regular issue, not in the FB) 
ST 162 
ST 163 
ST 164/2 
ST 165 
ST 166/2 
ST 167 

SUWAN 
INV 41 
YC 4 
ST 160-FB-BTS (remove, I see no evidence of her appearing in bts in this fb) 
*ST 161 (shes in the regular issue, not in the FB) 
ST 163 
ST 164/2 
CA 165 
CA 166 
CA 167 

WOO, JIMMY 
YC 4 
*ST 161-FB (remove, hes not in the fb) 
ST 160 
**ST 161 
ST 162 
ST 163 

VON VOLTZMANN, FRITZ/"KARL VON HORSTBADEN" 
M/:LG 3 
**ST 161 
**ST 162 
**ST 163 
**ST 164/2 
**ST 165

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2005 09:49 pm    
By Enda80

The Suwan and Voltzmann were robots, too per the Handbook.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2005 12:37 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
SUWAN 
ST 160-FB-BTS (remove, I see no evidence of her appearing in bts in this fb) 
<<<


Not quite ready to do that. Many times, behind-the-scenes appearances are not obvious from the book itself. It's revealed many years later that they are behind the scenes. 


watching: angel

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Thread 42

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 08:28 am    Post subject: Kitty's Fairy Tale
By lkseitz

It has recently come to my attention that the characters from Kitty's Fairy Tale (UX 153) are not in the Project. It was revealed in the 1985 NIGHTCRAWLER limited series (NC) that there is real dimension corresponding to her tale. The recent OHOTMU ALTERNATE UNIVERSES issue has revealed further appearances by a couple of the characters I wasn't unaware of. 

Before I submit chronologies for these characters, I have one question: Do we consider the tale told by Kitty in UX 153 to be canon? I just reread the relevant issues of NC. While it's obvious these characters have histories and know each other, there's no definite indication that Kitty's Fairy Tale took place for them as told. I'd say we should consider it canon until it's proven otherwise, but wanted other opinions. If UX 153 isn't canon, Mean may be the only character who merits an MCP listing at the moment.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 09:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Index and the Official Handbook both work on the basis that, while Kitty's Fairy Tale broadly resembles Earth-Bamf, it's not actually a literal account of events that took place there. So the story itself is non-canon.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 09:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If the tale told in UX 153 is canonical, here's what confounds me: How could Kitty relate a tale of actual events in a reality she shouldn't know anything about?
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Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 09:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's one of those Earth-Prime things where a writer turns out to have inadvertantly been in touch with a real alternate dimension. 

Seriously, that's the explanation. Hey, it worked for DC.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 09:17 pm    
By lkseitz

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The Index and the Official Handbook both work on the basis that, while Kitty's Fairy Tale broadly resembles Earth-Bamf, it's not actually a literal account of events that took place there. So the story itself is non-canon. 
<<<

Hmmm, I'll have to dig out my X-Men Indices and look that up. Where do you get that from the Handbook? I went back and re-scanned the entry in the Alternate Universes one. All I saw was this: 

Quote: 
>>>
Unbeknownst to Kitty, she had somehow subsconsciously tapped into an actual alternate reality while telling her story. 
<<<

To me, that neither confirms nor denies that the events related by Kitty actually happened. 

And has anybody got EXCALIBUR #113-114? Do any of the Bamfs there say anything to identify one as the lone escapee from Shagreen in NIGHTCRAWLER? (Or even the one from Kitty's fairy tale, which would cinch it as being canon?)
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 11:54 pm    
By JD

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
And has anybody got EXCALIBUR #113-114? 
<<<

These issues are not really helpful, since the Bamfs stay in the background. You're probably thinking of #118-119, when the team actually confront them. 

#118 : 
Kitty : "Bamfs ! They come from a place called the Well at the center of time !* But they're just fairy tale characters I created ! Figments of my imagination. Like something from a dream..." 
Footnote : "*We learned back in the Nightcrawler limited series." 
Bamfs : "Ain't no dream here, sweet-cheeks." 
"We're the real deal !" 
"Live and in color straight from the other side of reality !" 
[...] 
Colossus : "The ones from the fairy tale she told to lull my sister - Illyana - to sleep ?" 
[...] 
Kurt : "If those miniatures versions of me are up to their usual tricks to win Kitty's affection... ?" 
[...] 
Kurt : "What happened, Kitty ? Don't tell me you accidentally opened the dimensional door to the Well at the center of time again ?" 

#119 : 
A bamf, to Lockheed : "Remember when we all helped pirate Kitty save the universe from the evil phoenix demon ? That little ditty prettykitty thunk up for sick wittle Iwyana Rasputin when they wuz kids ? [...] While you've been making time with that sexy li'l Shadowcat in this world, we've been stuck in that ridiculous Well at the center of time !*" 
(Footnote pointing to UXM 153 and Nightcrawler v1 1-4) 

Nightmare calls the Bamfs "hired help" in the same issue.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 01:02 am    
By lkseitz

JD wrote: 
>>>
These issues are not really helpful, since the Bamfs stay in the background. You're probably thinking of #118-119, when the team actually confront them. 
<<<

I was just guessing which issues were relevant from the notes in OHOTMU ALTERNATE UNIVERSES. Obviously, I guessed wrong. Thanks for looking it up! 


JD wrote: 
>>>
#119 : 
A bamf, to Lockheed : "Remember when we all helped pirate Kitty save the universe from the evil phoenix demon? That little ditty prettykitty thunk up for sick wittle Iwyana Rasputin when they wuz kids? 
<<<

If a Bamf is asking Lockheed to "remember" UX 153, wouldn't that indicate it actually happened? (Although he's asking the wrong Lockheed.) 

I looked through my OMIT X-MEN. (Hmmm, maybe OMIT isn't the best thing to use for "Official Marvel Index To.") The '87/'88 series doesn't even make it to UX 153. The '94 one does, but I see no notes about whether the fairy tale is in continuity for the characters appearing in NIGHTCRAWLER. Although I seem to be missing OMIT X-MEN ('94) #5. Horrors!
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If the events of Kitty's Fairy Tale were real then the Bamf characters would have been given listings in the X-MEN INDEX and (unless my memory is very faulty on this point) they aren't. Therefore the official ruling is that the story didn't happen.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:57 am    
By Enda80

It seems to me that the Handbook includes in significant locations for Kitty's Fairy Tale places such as Nhu Yorkh which I think were only seen in Uncanny Men I#153. 

Has Nhu Yorkh been referenced outside of #153? 

By the way, this Earth has been designated Earth-5311. I rather prefer calling it that, since calling it Kitty's Fairy Tale conjures up confusion with Hello Kitty's Furry Tales.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 08:41 am    
By lkseitz

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
If the events of Kitty's Fairy Tale were real then the Bamf characters would have been given listings in the X-MEN INDEX and (unless my memory is very faulty on this point) they aren't. Therefore the official ruling is that the story didn't happen. 
<<<

I'll give you that none of the fairy tale characters are listed in the characters section. But Excalibur #119 came out after the last X-MEN INDEX series. Would Bamf's reference to it make it canon now? (What, me desperate?) 


Edna80 wrote: 
>>>
It seems to me that the Handbook includes in significant locations for Kitty's Fairy Tale places such as Nhu Yorkh which I think were only seen in Uncanny Men I#153. Has Nhu Yorkh been referenced outside of #153? 
<<<

I don't believe so, so you have a point. It also lists Prince Cyclops, Princess Jean, and Wizard Xavier as significant inhabitants, and they have not appeared outside of UX 153 either (to my knowledge).
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 09:54 am    
By Dhall

The Excal #119 reference, would seem to incorporate the events of the 'fairy tale' into chronology. 

Dave

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 10:55 am    
By rhod

That Nhu Yorkh is a caliphate by no means suggests a stronger Arab presence. It merely implies a different religious distribution. It could even be that these are the only arabs on this world. 

On the subject of naming Earth-'5311', I personally prefer Earth-Bamf. 

[or should that be Earth-Boggie?  ]

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 11:50 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Enda, can we stick to chronological discussion please? Nobody's interested in your "sidebars" speculating about race and religion in a dimension populated by Bamfs. Didn't the fact that it was deleted once deter you from posting it again? It's been deleted again ... third time's the charm, Enda. 

And I'd put down good money that you're the ONLY one who gets "Kitty's Fairy Tale" confused with "Hello Kitty's Furry Tales". 

Back on-topic, put me down as one of the folks who believe that, unlikely as it sounds, Kitty's Fairy Tale *did* happen as presented on Earth-Bamf. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 01:45 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, this Earth has been designated Earth-5311. I rather prefer calling it that, since calling it Kitty's Fairy Tale conjures up confusion with Hello Kitty's Furry Tales. 
<<<

And yet, you don't think anyone would confuse Earth-5311 with Earth-531, or worse yet, Earth-S-311. 

Asked and answered. We don't use Earth # designations here, because they clarify nothing, and confuse everything. 


watching: new mexico v colorado state

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 05:32 am    
By Enda80

I thought it would be helpful to put on the table, as it were, all that we know or can deduce about these alternate Earths and their socities/cultures, since many of them or their inhabitants often show up in quick cameos, so ferreting out which alternate Earth was intended can be aided by familiarity with the histories of these Earths.

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 06:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Even the HANDBOOK, to be fair, doesn't actually use the Earth numbers as the primary way of referring to another universe. It's not like the Alternate Universes entries were titled "Earth-whatever." It's treated more as the sort of worthless trivia which the HANDBOOK is meant to catalogue for amusement value.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Oct 2005 10:17 am 
By jephyork
Director

Worthless trivia? Why, that's totally Enda80's bag! 

Quote: 
>>>
I thought it would be helpful to put on the table, as it were, all that we know or can deduce about these alternate Earths and their socities/cultures, since many of them or their inhabitants often show up in quick cameos, so ferreting out which alternate Earth was intended can be aided by familiarity with the histories of these Earths. 
<<<

Enda, don't you think that if a character from the Earth of Kitty's Fairy Tale were to make an appearance in some future book, there'd be much easier ways to deduce his home dimension than by scrutinizing his comments about the relative Arab population of his world? 

Let's stick to putting Marvel comics and characters in a nice before-and-after order. If a character from a random alternate earth DOES make an appearance in a future book, and we find we need to deduce which earth he's from, THEN we can start doing research on alternate dimensions based on the clues we're given in the appearance. 

Until then, I'd like to stop indulging your mania for comparitive religion. This is a chronology board. Let's talk chronology. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Oct 2005 10:13 pm    
By lkseitz

So I can get these comics put back away, here are the Chronologies. At this point, I leave it up to Russ & the Board to decide if the comment in EXCALIBUR #119 brings UX 153 into continuity or not. 

COLOSSUS | KITTY'S FAIRY TALE 
UX 153 
NC 3 
NC 4 

LOCKHEED | KITTY'S FAIRY TALE 
UX 153 
NC 3 
NC 4 

MEAN 
UX 153 
NC 3 
NC 4 
XU 37 

PIRATE KITTY | KITTY'S FAIRY TALE 
UX 153 
NC 3 
NC 4 

WINDRIDER | KITTY'S FAIRY TALE 
UX 153 
NC 4 

I'm not sure if "KITTY'S FAIRY TALE" is needed for characters whose names differ from their mainstream couterparts, but left it in for good measure. 

The Bamfs are difficult to chronologize. First, they have no names, so that probably disqualifies them right there. Second, it would seem the comment by one in XCAL 119 would indicate he is the Bamf seen in UX 153, but I can't guarantee that. Since all the Bamfs but one were captured by Shagreen in NC, he's probably there too, regardless of if he's the one that got away. Due to all this, I'm in favor of skipping a chronolgy for Bamf altogether.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 30 Oct 2005 11:26 pm    
By Enda80

PIRATE KITTY | KITTY'S FAIRY TALE 
UX 153 
NC 3 
NC 4 


Was she given a proper name during that fairy tale of Nhu Yorkh? 

Does the Handbook give her a name?

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Posted: 31 Oct 2005 08:50 am    
By lkseitz

Enda80 wrote: 
PIRATE KITTY | KITTY'S FAIRY TALE 

Was she given a proper name during that fairy tale of Nhu Yorkh? Does the Handbook give her a name? 

I looked through UX 153 before posting and didn't see any name given beyond "Kitty." Colossus tends to call her "Katya." Lockheed referred to her as "Colleen" in UX 153 and NC 3, but I wasn't sure if that was a proper name or something along the lines of Crocodile Dundee calling a woman "Shiela." 

OHOTMU ALTERNATE UNIVERSES lists her as "Pirate Kitty" in the Significant Inhabitants section. (Ditto Princess Jean, Wizard Xavier, etc.) I honestly didn't dig into the text of the entry at that point looking for another name. Likewise, the Kitty's Fairy Tale Colossus doesn't seem to have another name. 

And since I mentioned it, I didn't bother to chronologize Princess Jean, Prince Cyclops, or Wizard Xavier since they have yet to appear outside the tale in UX 153 to the best of my knowledge.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 43

Posted: 21 Sep 2005 08:31 am    Post subject: The solution to the Ross / Ultimates / FF continuity problem
By JD

It can be found in "the Official Handbook of the Ultimate Marvel Universe - the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man" (which is quite a long title), in Ross's profile. 

Quote: 
>>>
[..] Wraith retaliated by trying to kill Ross in an explosion, but Ross survived, perhaps because Xavier was resisting the device controlling him; however, while recovering, Ross was replaced by Fury as head of S.H.I.E.L.D. 
Ross returned to working with Dr Storm at the Baxter Building, and observed teenage scientist Reed Richards' first major test of his N-Zone teleporter, an experiment which inadvertently mutated Richards and several of his friends. [...] 
<<<

So, the official sequence of events is this (I noted [H] the events explicitely reported in Ross's handbook entry) : 

UFF 1-FB ("21 years ago") Birth of Reed Richards 
UFF 1-FB ("11 years ago") Youth of Reed 
UFF 1-FB ("6 months later") Reed is recruited to the Baxter Building 
UFF 2-FB ("5 years ago") Ross fires Molekevic [H] 
UMTU 2-3 Banner-Hulk incident, Ross recaptures him [H] 
UXM 9 Fury captured, Wraith shows Ross the captured X-Men [H] 
UXM 10 Fury rescued 
UXM 11 Ross announces to Wraith by visiophone that Weapon X will be shut down (and replaced but what would become the Ultimates), then makes Xavier (?) blow up the reunion room where Ross is [H] 
UXM 12 Fury shuts down Weapon X and has taken over SHIELD [H] 
U1 2 Fury starts the Ultimates 
[...] 
UFF 2 ("Today") accident with the N-Zone experiment that causes the FF's and Doom's mutation ; Ross is overseeing operations [H] 
UFF 3-4 
UFF 5 Dr Storm says "Let the Ultimates handle it" 

Note that in UFF 14, Sue and Reed have the following exchange : 
Quote: 
>>>
Sue: Ross is so crazy that is got shot or blown up or something and then came back to life. On the slab. And do you remember what he said to the mortuary attendant ? 
Reed : "Hands of my bodily fluids, soldier." 
<<<

The two lines in U1 2 ("Have you talked to the Fantastic Four?" "After all the negative press they've been getting from their neighbors lately ? Don't even think about it.") are completely impossible to make fit, and thus must be dismissed. The Ultimates are barely formed at that moment (Tony is just being convinced, Janet and Hank have not moved in yet, CA has not been recovered yet, and the team is not public yet), and the FF have not been actually formed in UFF 5 (and they don't become public until UFF 18).

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Posted: 23 Oct 2005 07:53 am    
By tyciol

Well... possibly even if they weren't formed, Reed thought they were so that's why he said it? 

Also, when Fury forms the Ultimates, was he necessarily already the head of SHIELD? Maybe he was just a lesser agent put in charge of it or something, or vice versa with Ross being put in charge of the FF experiments after being demoted so Fury can be in charge? Are both projects neccessarily enacted by the head of SHIELD?
_________________
Tyciol (too new for a sigfreud)

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Posted: 23 Oct 2005 09:51 am    
By JD

tyciol wrote: 
>>>
Well... possibly even if they weren't formed, Reed thought they were so that's why he said it? 
<<<

I think you mean Dr Storm, not Reed. 
It may be possible that the Ultimates project is yet in the works at the time of UFF 2-6, we'll have to wait for the "OHOTUMU - Ultimates & UXM" for Marvel's official word on this. 

My main point was that UFF 2-6 is definitely post-UXM 12. 


tyciol wrote: 
>>>
Also, when Fury forms the Ultimates, was he necessarily already the head of SHIELD? Maybe he was just a lesser agent put in charge of it or something, or vice versa with Ross being put in charge of the FF experiments after being demoted so Fury can be in charge? Are both projects neccessarily enacted by the head of SHIELD? 
<<<

Well, the Handbook clearly states that Ross was demoted because of his near-death (Fury takes over), and then returns to the Baxter Building in UFF 2. He's never in charge of SHIELD after that point, only of the Baxter Building. 
When forming the Ultimates, Fury is clearly head of SHIELD (as he should be, post UXM 12).

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Thread 44

Posted: 05 Oct 2005 08:57 pm    Post subject: Marvel Monsters: Devil Dinosaur
By lkseitz

Marvel Monsters: Devil Dinosaur #1, "The Battle That Time Forgot" 
Published: October 2005 (cover date December 2005) 
Tom Sniegoski & Eric Powell, writers; Eric Powell, illustrator. 

Appearances: Devil Dinosaur, Moon-Boy, Hulk, Seven Scars (chief of the Killer Folk), Gamiel the Manipulator (Celestial), Devron the Experimenter (Celestial), two unnamed Celestials, various Small Folk and Killer Folk. 

Synopsis: We open on a world said to "someday be called Earth." Devil Dinosaur (henceforth just called Devil) & Moon-Boy are defending the Small Folk from the Killer Folk, led by Seven Scars. The Killer Folk are routed. Meanwhile, two young Celestials, brothers Gamiel & Devron, are shown to be observing this event from orbit. Devron had hypothesized the Small Folk would compensate to defend against the Killer Folk, and they have by allying with Devil. Gamiel presumed the strong, more aggressive Killer Folk would become dominant. He wants to sterilize the planet and start life over, but Devron says no. 

Back on Earth, Seven Scars is calling on the spirits to help them defeat Devil. Gamiel observes alone and decides to help them, simply because he believes his hypothesis must be right and some mutation caused it to go astray. He searches the future of Earth and transports the Hulk to the Killer Folk to help them. 

The Hulk is confused. Last he remembers he was in the desert fighting soliders. The Killer Folk believe he is a spirit come to help him. They give him food and make him leader, asking him to help them defeat Devil. 

Meanwhile Moon-Boy is drawing and telling a story to his tribe about their recent victory over the Killer Folk. He's interrupted by the Hulk. Devil attacks, but the Hulk quickly defeats him. A temporal alarm alerts Devron to what's going on, and he begins to observe, apart from Gamiel. 

The Killer Folk want the Hulk to kill Devil, but Moon-Boy intercedes, saying the Hulk will have to kill him before the Hulk kills Devil. The Hulk is moved and says he taught Devil a lesson and there's no need to kill him. Seven Scars disagrees and goes to spear Devil. Devron decides he must intercede to undo Gamiel's interference with the planet's natural development. The Hulk has Seven Scars by the neck, telling him he will not kill Devil when a energy beam strike Devil. He mutates into an even more powerful dinosaur and attacks the Hulk. 

A "proximity alarm" goes off in the Celestial craft due to all the "gamma and mutagenic energies being released" which will "surely draw attention." The brothers quickly transport the Hulk and Devil to their ship to hide them amongst their "biological specimens." Hulk and Devil break out of their Kirbantium cage and start destroying the ship. Eventually they breach the hull and everyone is blown into space. A hand is shown activating some equipment and the four disappear. 

On the planet, Moon-Boy is again telling stories while Devil sleeps. The Hulk is back in his own time bounding through the desert, the experience with Devil "seeming but a dream." Devron and Gamiel are called before two adult Celestials. (I don't recognize them as being any ever shown before.) The brothers are taken to task, but not punished. It looks like they'll be sent to observe the first meeting of the Skrulls and Kree. (Gamiel thinks the Skrulls are "fascinating," but Devron thinks the Kree are "more interesting.") 

Chronological notes: First, the Hulk. This is the classic, dim, green Hulk. He speaks of himself in the third person and gets in at least one "Hulk smash!" He's drawn in the Kirby style (of course) with a somewhat flat head. He's wearing torn purple pants. The only hints of when and where he came from is a small flashback showing him in the desert getting ready to throw a tank at a couple soldiers. My meager Hulk collection lacks any issues from this era, so I have no clue what possible issues this could take place between. 

Devil Dinosaur, on the other hand, is a chronological problem. One of the main attributes of Devil & Moon-Boy is that they were loners. Devil's family were all dead and Moon-Boy's tribe rejected him because of his association with Devil. Having the Small Folk accept Devil goes against every previous story. 

By itself, that's not a problem that can't be worked around. The problem comes with Seven Scars. IIRC, he was killed in the course of Devil's original series. This was even used as a plot point in one of the stories in the DEVIL DINOSAUR SPRING FLING. Reconciling these two events will almost have to require conjecture. I'll have to study my DEVIL DINOSAUR back issues and post further on this later. In the meantime, any suggestions? All other characters are either previously unseen (the various Celestials) or anonymous players (the various Small & Killer Folk). 

Calling this planet Earth also conflicts with Devil Dinosaur & Moon-Boy being from a planet other than Earth, as revealed in the FALLEN ANGELS limited series. OTOH, it's in line with Jack Kirby's original intentions. 

The issue is finished off with a reprint of a story from JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #62 (November 1960) by Jack Kirby & Dick Ayers. It's the first appearance of Xemnu the Titan. But he's called the Hulk, as this appearance pre-dates Dr. Banner and his transformation. 

[Edited for typos and unclear pronoun use.]
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

Last edited by lkseitz on 13 Oct 2005 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 06 Oct 2005 06:10 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Now that's a quick turn-around for an analysis! Thanks, Lee. I'll cross this off the request list. 

It sounds to me like Hulk is plucked from some point fairly early in his history. I suppose we can place this in almost any gap between appearances in comics from the mid to late '60s.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Oct 2005 08:27 am    
By lkseitz

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
One of the main attributes of Devil & Moon-Boy is that they were loners. Devil's family were all dead and Moon-Boy's tribe rejected him because of his association with Devil. Having the Small Folk accept Devil goes against every previous story. 

By itself, that's not a problem that can't be worked around. The problem comes with Seven Scars. IIRC, he was killed in the course of Devil's original series. 
<<<

I haven't studied it in depth yet, but a quick glance at the first two issues of the original DEVIL DINOSAUR series reveals two things. First, the very first time Moon-Boy returns to the Small Folk with Devil, they all immediately flee. According to Moon-Boy's narration immediately following his flashback, they haven't seen the Small Folk since then. Second, we cut immediately from Moon-Boy thinking this to the Killer Folk, led by Seven Scars, setting a trap for Devil. Moon-Boy and Devil awake to discover a forest fire (set by the Killer Folk) raging. From there, events occur one after the other right up through Seven Scars being killed by Devil in DD #2. 

So really, the only place at the moment to put MARVEL MONSTERS DEVIL DINOSAUR is inbetween the Moon-Boy and Killer Folk scenes in DD #1. That's asking a lot, I think. We're talking about a lot of time for Moon-Boy to reconcile with the Small Folk, the Killer Folk to attack, the fight with the Hulk, etc. stuck between two scenes that were intended to take place almost simultaneously. Not to mention it doesn't make sense for Moon-Boy and Devil to be sleeping alone instead of with the Small Folk if MMDD is inserted there. But I guess fitting it all together is what being a Marvel Chronologist is all about.  

And I'm pretty sure I'll find further references in later DD issues to the Small Folk not accepting Devil, so no one write that down yet. Makes me wonder if Sniegoski even read any issues of DD.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 07 Oct 2005 10:08 am    
By Somebody

Interview with Eric Powell about it: http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Oct_previews/POwellDevilDino.htm

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Posted: 08 Oct 2005 10:29 pm    
By lkseitz

Thanks for the pointer, Somebody. That was interesting. 

I've gone over all of Devil Dinosaur's appearances up through FALLEN ANGELS. I've been able to come to only one conclusion about the story in MMDD: that can't be the same Seven Scars as seen in the original series. 

I went back a read DEVIL DINOSAUR #1 & 2 more closely. (I'd only taken a brief glance before heading to work before.) We go from Moon-Boy's flashback of Devil's origin to Moon-Boy ending his recollection thinking that he hasn't seen the Small Folk since. That cuts to a scene labeled "meanwhile" which shows Seven Scars becoming leader of the Killer Folk by deposing the previous leader. He then says Devil will die that night by the trap they will set. Then begins a series of scenes the wind up with Devil killing Seven Scars. Nowhere is there a break to put MMDD in. Even if there was one, it wouldn't make sense to do so. Moon-Boy does not find the Small Folk until DD #8, well after Seven Scars death, so he and Devil couldn't possibly become protectors of the tribe until after that. 

I see no alternative but to assume the Seven Scars seen in MMDD is not the same individual shown in DDINO. There is a precedent for this, as the leader Seven Scars deposes in DD #1 is named Stone-Hand. This name will later be used by another character in DD. So perhaps the Seven Scars in MMDD is a son (unlikely, given the time it would take for him to mature and Moon-Boy's apparent lack of aging), a brother, or someone else. This indvidual might even have scarred himself and taken Seven Scars name as some sort of tribute. 

Possible further support for this argument comes from Seven Scars' appearance. While he later removes it to give it to the Hulk, in MMDD Seven Scars is originally wearing a hat made from some sort of skull. The original Seven Scars was never shown wearing such a thing. 

However, we still have to fit the stories of the DEVIL DINOSAUR SPRING FLING one-shot (DDINO2) in. The first story features a Skrull impersonating the deceased Seven Scars. The second features the Small Folk willing to accept Moon-Boy back into the tribe, but not with Devil. (He rejects their offer.) I'd say we can leave these where they are in the chronologies. The Skrull would be impersonating the deceased Seven Scars before the new one shows up. And while the Small Folk did help Moon-Boy rescue Devil in DD #8, it wasn't shown that they accepted him back into the tribe, so we have some gap of time in which this happened betweeen it and MMDD. 

While we're at it, we might as well add the missing flashback in DD #1 to their chronologies. So, in the end, for both Devil Dinosaur and Moon-Boy, we have this addition to their chronologies: 

* DDINO 1-FB 
DDINO 1 
... 
GZILL 22 
* DDINO3 1 (or whatever abbreviation this issue will use) 
FA 4 
...
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 09:40 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'd call it MM:DDINO, to reflect its status as one of the "Marvel Monsters" one-shots. 

The rest looks good, by the way. I'd buy the "Seven Scars II/named in honor of the first" line of thought. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 45

Posted: 06 Oct 2005 03:50 pm    Post subject: Target Presents: Reading to the Rescue! #3
By jephyork
Director

"Target Presents Reading to the Rescue!" #3 
by Todd DeZago and Ron Lim 

Appearances: 

Mr. Fantastic 
the Invisible Woman 
the Thing 
the Human Torch 
Captain America 
Iron Man 
Spider-Woman 
Luke Cage 
Wolverine 
Spider-Man 
Kang 

Austin, Russ and Sharon 

Synopsis: 

Captain America is hosting National Night Out, a street event honoring New Yorks police and fire departments. In attendance are the New Avengers and the Fantastic Four, a large group of police and firemen, and many civilians  including the three kids from the first two "Reading to the Rescue" comics. 

Suddenly, Kang appears aboard a hovering timeship. He states that he has learned that the three children are destined to somehow defeat him, and although hes unsure of the exact details, he has traveled there to get rid of them before they can. He aims time-blasters at the kids, and three of the heroes leap to their aid 

Captain America and Russ are transported to 28,000 BC. They are attacked by startled cavemen, whom Russ recognizes as Cro-Magnons, and from a report he wrote in school he guesses theyre in the Pleistocene era. Cap gets Russ to safety in a cave, where he discovers some cave paintings showing a caveman disguising himself in animal skins to get closer to his prey. 

Spider-Man, the Invisible Woman and Sharon are transported to Egypt in 2500 BC and are attacked by Egyptian palace guards. After the Invisible Woman turns them invisible, they take refuge in a temple, where Sharon figures out what era it is because of a hieroglyphics article she read. The hieroglyphics they find tell a story of Egyptians disguising themselves as Roman troops. 

Luke Cage and Austin are transported to 1942. When they arrive, Austin recognizes the air raid siren from his grandfathers books, and deduces what era theyre in. Luke hides Austin inside a newsstand while he looks around, and has a run-in with a suspicious security guard, who accuses him of trying to loot it. Luke saves the guard from being flattened by a speeding car, and the shaken and grateful man lets him go. When Luke returns to the newsstand, he finds Austin reading a Captain America comic where Cap fools the Red Skull by disguising himself as his henchman. 

Meanwhile in the present day, while the rest of the heroes attack and distract Kang, Mr. Fantastic and Wolverine sneak into the back of his timeship, which contains displays of several Kang costumes and hundreds of books. Mr. Fantastic realizes that the instructions to operate the platform and recover the displaced heroes must be in one of the books. As the police and firemen poke their heads in and ask what they can do to help, Wolverine tells them to grab a book and start looking. 

Eventually one of the firemen finds the correct book, and Mr. Fantastic uses the time platform to recover the heroes and kids. Wolverine tells everyone to get back to the battle against Kang, but the kids have an idea for how to defeat him 

As Kang beats back the heroes, he hears a voice behind him  and is shocked to discover himself! The newcomer claims to be a Kang from his own future, who has returned to warn himself of a grave mistake. He suddenly unmasks  revealing himself to be Luke Cage  and one of Kangs own time-rays hits Kang from behind! As Kang vanishes from sight, he realizes that just as he foresaw, the children provided the means to his defeat 

As the crowd cheers, Mr. Fantastic exits the timeship and says that he sent Kang far into the past. Luke rips out of the spare Kang costume, and Spider-Man hopes that none of their journeys affected the timeline. Meanwhile, in the past, we see a Cro-Magnon drawing a cave painting of Captain America, and an Egyptian drawing hieroglyphics of Spider-Man and the Invisible Woman  and the comic book Austin brought back from the past has changed into an account of Lukes saving the guard from the speeding car 

Temporal and Chronological Analysis: 

The issue takes place on one day, on the streets of New York on a blue-skied, partly cloudy day. The audience is mainly wearing short sleeves, and its likely early evening since the name of the celebration is "National *Night* Out". 

(Simultaneously, the issue also occurs on one day in 28,000 BC, one day in 2500 BC, and one night in 1942.) 

The Fantastic Four are wearing what appears, to my untrained eye, to be their Ultimate costumes  but theyre clearly the "regular" FF. Id chalk this up to "artistic license", or Marvels desire to familiarize their target audience (no pun intended) with the Ultimate FF comic. (Ultimate FF is one of several comics carried in Target stores, and this comic contains coupons for Target comics in the back.) 

So, long story short, I wouldnt worry about their costumes here. The New Avengers are in their correct costumes  however, their team lineup does not include the Sentry or Ronin. 

The kids comment that they know about the New Avengers from, respectively, "that article in a magazine", the Daily Bugle, and Marvel Comics. I know that the New Avengers havent yet gone public in their own comic, but there are some indications that they havent yet done so here either. For one, Russ, who read about the team in the Bugle, doesnt know who Wolverine is  which would indicate that the Bugle is going off incomplete information. Also, Sharon comments that she read about them in "*that* article"  which implies to me that theres only been one article written about them so far. (As opposed to saying "*an* article".) 

I would recommend placing this issue between A4 #10-11. It could also go in the six-day gap in A4 #7, but placing it between #10-11 gives the New Avengers a little more time to attain the unofficial publicity the kids recognize them from here. Im unsure of where this would fall in the FFs chronology, but since they appear in A4 #10, it shouldnt be too hard to deduce it. 

I have no idea where Kang has time-travelled from  but, logically, I'd guess this should follow his recent Young Avengers appearance. 

Comments: 

For a kids comic, this issue actually has a lot of plot. I mean, I can summarize an issue of "X-Force: Shatterstar" in a paragraph, but this fourteen-page comic is pretty complex! Between this issue and the one I read last year, Im glad that Target isnt talking down to their grade-school audience. I didnt even notice the "disguise" motif in the pictures the kids found until my third read-through. 

And theres a LOT of "reading" references here. The kids all know about the New Avengers through READING different things. Kang comments that time is an open BOOK. The kids recognize where they were sent through stuff theyve READ. The kids are rescued from time by READING the manual. Things they READ give them the idea to disguise Luke. The leader of the FF is named REED. Okay, Im stretching on that last one. But in general, Im impressed at how well-put-together this supposed "kids comic" is. 

That said  theres one confusing bit. The Captain America comic that Austin brought back from 1942 doesnt just change into a comic showing Luke Cage saving the guard  it changes into an exact copy of Reading to the Rescue #3, complete with exact same front and back cover. Ignoring the meta-implications of that, this is weird for two reasons: after Austin is returned to the present day, the comic still says "Captain America"  and even if the timeline *was* changed by Lukes actions, the comic was still published *before* the divergence point  so it shouldnt have changed! Having it suddenly be a copy of "Reading to the Rescue" is just plain odd. 

My answer to this is simple, though: its not the same comic! In between the time Austin was returned to the present and the time he exited the timeship, he spotted the Reading to the Rescue comic off of Kangs bookshelves, and grabbed it. What the kids are reading in the final panel, then, is a comic from the future  in fact, its the very comic that warned Kang of his imminent defeat at the childrens hands. Being a comic adaptation of the events that occurred that day, it didnt have all its facts right  so Kang didnt know exactly what would happen  but it was enough evidence to bring him there, and in traditional sci-fi timeloop-storyline fashion, bring about the very events it foretold.

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Posted: 06 Oct 2005 04:13 pm    
By Somebody

Quote: 
>>>
I have no idea where Kang has time-travelled from  but, logically, I'd guess this should follow his recent Young Avengers appearance.  
<<<

Well, he got run through with a sword by his younger self (Iron Lad) and apparently killed (which Cap reinforced in YA7) there. And the new Vision's running around in the armour he was wearing when he got the sword stuck through his chest. 

I'd place it early as I could, maybe chalk it up to one of the divergent Kangs that got killed in Stern's Avengers and that the remaining Kang got the memories of. 

And if you look, ALL of Marvel's generic promo art these days (excepting stuff like solicitations which directly relate to FF or MK4) uses the UF4 costumes (As does MAF4) - although not all the costumes involved are Ult - the X-Men are always in their Reload suits, for instance.

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Posted: 06 Oct 2005 05:09 pm    
By Ant-Man

National Night Out is usually scheduled for some time around the first of August. Should we ASSume that also applies to National Night Out in the Marvel Universe?
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 06 Oct 2005 06:23 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, HoM now takes place in late summer, right? After the Hellions' summer vacation? So -- if this issue occurs between A4 #10-11 and HoM occurs somewhere between HoM #13-16 ... then it could conceivably occur around August 1st. 

As for the Kang's-death thing ... I didn't catch that, I had assumed that everything was erased at the end of YA #6 -- including Kang's death. Thanks, Somebody. 

There's no way at all that Kang is gone for good, of course, but until we get around to a story that explains how he survived YA #6, we should probably place this issue before that in his chronology. 

That said, I don't understand why "before YA #1-6" automatically implies "as far back as possible" AND" a divergent Kang". I'd suggest placing this just before YA #1-6, then -- not back in the Roger Stern era. 

By the way -- if Cap comments in YA #7 that Kang is dead -- then this issue shouldn't be placed between YA #6-7. (Even though the Kang in this issue might be from a different era, there's no way Cap would know that -- if this issue did occur between YA #6-7, he wouldn't be still under the impression that Kang was dead in YA #7.) 

So the issue should occur either before YA #1 or after #7. And since YA #1-6 occurs before the New Avengers were formed -- then this issue needs to occur after YA #7. (In addition to occuring after A4 #1-10.) 

Meaning, depending on where we end up placing YA #7-12 in the New Avengers' chronology, we may have to alter the placement of this issue as well. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Oct 2005 07:41 pm    
By lkseitz

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
National Night Out is usually scheduled for some time around the first of August. 
<<<

Specifically, National Night Out is the first Tuesday of August. I never thought that tidbit of knowledge would come in handy when talking about comic books. Good luck squeezing this in the calendar on just the right day, Paul. 
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 09:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Good luck squeezing this in the calendar on just the right day, Paul.  
<<<

It shouldn't be a problem, since this story must occur after both A4 10 (because of the media coverage of the New Avengers that began in A4 7 and is referenced here) and YA 7 (because of Cap's reference in YA 7 to Kang's presumed death in YA 6). 

The question is how long after. The absence of Sentry and Ronin do not provide definitive placement; placement after A4 10 means that Sentry is with the Avengers by this point but apparently couldn't attend the National Night Out event. The same could be true of Ronin. A lot will hinge on the calendar placement of other stories as determined by other clues. I'm still waiting to see if the end of the school year in NX 14 and NX:H 1 is tied to the Sentry story in A4 7-10 (as some here have theorized) or to House of M (as apparently it was originally intended). Even if it's the former, A4 11-13 occur only a "month" after the Raft breakout in A4 1-2 (which of course would be before the end of the school year), and so A4 11-13 likely occurs before the August date of National Night Out.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 09:28 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
A4 11-13 occur only a "month" after the Raft breakout in A4 1-2  
<<<

Actually, Cap said the breakout was "last month," which could put 2 to 7 weeks between A4 2 & A4 11... 7 weeks(or so) if the breakout was at the beginning of 'last month' & Cap's chat with Matt Murdock is at the tail end of 'this month.' That could give us some more 'wiggle' room.  

Hope that helps.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 05:51 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Not really. A4 1-2 must occur before the end of the school year shown in NX 14 and NX:H 1. Let's say for the sake of argument that said end occurs in June and the breakout is even just days before it. That still puts A4 11-13 in July. If Reading to the Rescue #3 truly occurs on the first Tuesday in August, it occurs after A4 13. 

It will be interesting to see what happens to Spider-Woman in A4 14-15. If the exposure of her secret leads to her leaving the Avengers, then Reading to the Rescue #3 would need to be placed before A4 14.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 06:50 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm still waiting to see if the end of the school year in NX 14 and NX:H 1 is tied to the Sentry story in A4 7-10 (as some here have theorized) or to House of M (as apparently it was originally intended). Even if it's the former, A4 11-13 occur only a "month" after the Raft breakout in A4 1-2 (which of course would be before the end of the school year), and so A4 11-13 likely occurs before the August date of National Night Out. 
<<<

Academy X Yearbook picks up straight from the last page of NXMAX15: http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Oct_previews/oct26thpreviews.htm

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Thread 46

Posted: 09 Oct 2005 10:11 am    Post subject: FF/IM Big In Japan #1
By SKleefeld
Director

The story is pretty simple, really... 

The FF are in Japan for a ribbon cutting ceremony of the Tokyo Giant Monster Museum and Expo Center. During their tour of the facilities, they run into Tony Stark, who joins them on the tour. Shortly afterwards, some of the caged specimens break loose. Although the FF and Iron Man help try to round up the creatures, things get progressively worse as the smaller, more manageable, monsters start to release bigger and bigger ones. The end of the issue shows what appear to be Giganto and King Kong ravaging through the streets of Tokyo. 

First off are the players: Mr. Fantastic, Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Thing, Iron Man, and Dr. Yamane -- the museum curator. 

Chronological clues are few and far between. The Iron Man armor looks mostly contemporaneous with current stories in Iron Man and New Avengers but the FF's costumes are unlike those ever used anywhere before. They're blue jumpsuits with white trim. The "4" chest symbol is not drawn in as three-dimensional attachment, as shown in recent years, nor is it the classic bold "4" floating inside the circle. Instead it's a very thin "4" whose points all touch the edges of the circle. I could chalk that up to artistic license fairly easily, but what stands out more curiously is that none of the team have belts. They've never NOT worn belts, so I'm not sure if that should be considered artistic license or that's supposed to be a noticeable and relevant design change. 

There's no mention of any real external events. Stark is noted as the CEO of Stark Enterprises (don't know how that may or may not fit in with Iron Man) and, interestingly, Susan notes that she didn't know that Stark was so tall. That almost suggests that she's never even MET him before, which pretty laughable! Once the monsters break loose, Tony notes that he should "find my 'bodyguard'" and the only response is Johnny saying, "You think?" It seems that Tony's dual identity is largely secret, but whether or not the FF know is unclear. 

The upshot is that we've got no real sense of placement with this series yet. 

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 04:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

What's up with the FF lately? They're behaving like a bunch of Janet Van Dyne wannabes. There's this story, then there's Reading to the Rescue #3, another story with costumes unlike any worn in any other canonical story. Maybe in some issue of FF or FOUR we'll see Reed unveil a huge wardrobe closet full of costumes for different missions. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 09:26 pm    
By Enda80

By the way, a Monster Island question; 


http://monsterblog.oneroom.org/meet_the_monsters/monster_isle.html 

In Fantastic Four Index#1 

The Monsters of Monster Isle (first 
appearance.Monster Isle is located in the Bermuda 
Triangle and is not to be confused with Monster 
Island, the residence of Godzilla and other monsters 
located near Japan; 

This is from Fantastic Four Index#1, page 2. It seems 
to me that the only reason that Olshevsky mentioned 
this would be if Godzillas Monster Island existed on 
Earth-616. 

Uncanny X-Men I#181 also indicates that the Monster Island near Japan does exist on Earth-616, since someone mentions that he checked in with Monster Island. 

This could affect chronology if we have to decide how long it someone to get to Bermuda or Japan.

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Posted: 09 Oct 2005 09:34 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So what's the question? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 05:47 am    
By Enda80

Question is the Mole Man's place Monster Isle or Monster Island or have both been used? Next, is the Mole Man's place in the Bermuda triangle?

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 06:56 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
What's up with the FF lately? They're behaving like a bunch of Janet Van Dyne wannabes. There's this story, then there's Reading to the Rescue #3, another story with costumes unlike any worn in any other canonical story. Maybe in some issue of FF or FOUR we'll see Reed unveil a huge wardrobe closet full of costumes for different missions.  
<<<

Like I said on the RttR3 thread, the UltFF suits are being used for all generic promotional stuff by Marvel now (presumably, RttR counts), while the X-Men's ReLoad outfits are to be used, etc, etc. That makes RW sense, if not canon sense. 

What's going on in BiJ is a simple WtH. Presumably, that's what the artist wanted to draw and no-one stopped him. It's like the mess Bobillo made of every guest-star in SHv1 (and, judging from Spider-Woman in the SH2 preview, he'll continue to do so in v2)

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 07:35 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Question is the Mole Man's place Monster Isle or Monster Island or have both been used? Next, is the Mole Man's place in the Bermuda triangle? 
<<<

Since it has nothing to do with chronologies, this is a question better asked of the Appendix. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 07:36 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Question is the Mole Man's place Monster Isle or Monster Island or have both been used? Next, is the Mole Man's place in the Bermuda triangle? 
<<<

Well, that's two questions, technically.  

Mole Man's digs are called "Monster Isle." I expect you can find at least one instance where it's called "Monster Island" but that would be incorrect, strictly speaking. 

As for where it's located, I had a web site running for a while called the Marvel Atlas Project to locate all these types of fun places. Here are two of the maps from the M.A.P. to show the relative locations of Monster Isle and Monster Island... 

http://www.aub.dk/~henckel/Atlantic.gif

http://www.aub.dk/~henckel/Pacific.gif

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 11:31 am    
By Enda80

It could impact chronology if we have to decide how long it took a person to reach Japan or Bermuda. Don Campbell provided similar details in his Tomb of Dracula analysis, after all.

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Posted: 10 Oct 2005 01:53 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
It could impact chronology if we have to decide how long it took a person to reach Japan or Bermuda. 
<<<

As to your first question, no, it wouldn't. You're not asking if Mole Man's island and Godzilla's island are two different islands. You already know the answer to that. You're asking if Mole Man's island has been referred to as both "Isle" and "Island." The answer to the question has no impact on how long it takes someone to travel from Japan or Bermuda. 

As to your second question, well, possibly. But the answer to your second question can only answer chronological questions that haven't been asked yet. The chronological question is hypothetical. 

That's kind of like asking, 


Person A wrote: 
>>>
Are there any stories that show Nick Fury as a Major? 
<<<


Person B wrote: 
>>>
That's not a chronological question. The guys at the Appendix would probably know. 
<<<


Person A wrote: 
>>>
But it could be a chronological question. If there's a story with Dum Dum Dugan as a Captain, then we could have a clue where to place the story in Dugan's chronology, if we knew when Fury was a Major. 
<<<


Person B wrote: 
>>>
But...there are no Captain Dugan stories. 
<<<

I dunno. Someone may know the answer to your question, but I'm just pointing out you'd probably have better luck getting an answer at the Appendix. 


watching: situation room

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Thread 47

Posted: 12 Oct 2005 10:33 am    Post subject: Marvel Presents #9-10
By scottandrewhutchins

M/PRS 9 

Vance Astro 
Charlie-27 
Martinex 
Yondu 
Nikki 
Starhawk 
Aleta 
Tara 
Sita 
John 
Commander Ogorb (father of Aleta; stepfather of Stakar/Starhawk) 
Lieutenant 
Brutag (unnamed) 

M/PRS 9-FB 
Sleese 
Salaan 
Sleese's friend (woman with antennae and tentacle arms) 
Hawk-God 
Stakar 
Aleta 
Commander Ogorb 

M/PRS 10 
Vance Astro 
Charle-27 
Martinex 
Yondu 
Nikki 
Aleta 
Tara 
Sita 
John 
Commander Ogorb 
Brutag 

M/PRS 10-FB 
Hawk-God 
Stakar/Starhawk 
Aleta 
Commander Ogorb 

I do not have 11 or 12.

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Posted: 12 Oct 2005 10:34 am    
By scottandrewhutchins

Commander Ogord, his lieutenant, Brutag, and othe runnmaed characters are Reavers of Arcturus.

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Thread 48

Posted: 11 Oct 2005 10:15 pm    Post subject: X-Force: Shatterstar #1-4
By jephyork
Director

X-Force: Shatterstar #1-4 
"World Against One" 

XFOR:SH #1  "World Against One, Chapters 1-4" 

Synopsis: 
Shatterstar, who has spent the last two months fighting in a Madripoor gladiatorial arena, is approached by a hooded woman and asked to kill a villain she calls "the Destroyer". That night, Shatterstar is attacked in his apartment by a trio of ninjas  the leader of which reveals himself to be Dominicus Pierce, Shatterstars target. He is no villain, he claims, but a sacred guardian of an ancient blade known as the Five Fingers of Annihilation. The hooded woman desires the blade, which is the only thing that can defeat a creature called the Skornn, who feeds on mutants. Pierce entrusts the blade to Shatterstar. Elsewhere, later, one of Pierces ninjas reveals himself to be a traitor  working alongside the hooded woman, who is revealed to be Spiral 

Appearances: 
Shatterstar 
Pierce, Dominicus 
Spiral 

Temporal references: 
The entire issue takes place in one night, in Madripoor, with a full moon. Given the time zone, even if any midnight breaks could be divined, theyd be irrelevant  using Eastern Standard Time, the entire issue probably occurs over the same "day". Shatterstar has been fighting in the Madripoor arena for "two whole months". 

Flashbacks (p.10-11 spread panel 1): 

A montage panel of Shatterstars life, including some new material. We see the coliseum he grew up fighting in; Shatterstar in his original costume fighting five Mojoworld warriors (likely in an arena battle, by the narration); a close-up of his hand, dripping with blood; and a generic shot of him with the early X-Force team. 

Of these, the five-on-one battle may be new, and his blood-drenched hand is definitely new. The narration describes it as "facing the Host in the dark woods of Tazafar  how satisfying it felt to watch their foul blood run between my fingers." Since it doesnt sound like an arena battle, it likely occurred while Shatterstar was part of the rebellion against Mojo V. Both of these flashbacks, then, occur before the FB seen in NM #100, which describes the near-defeat of the rebellion and Shatterstars decision to travel to earth to seek the X-Mens help. 

-------- 

XFOR:SH #2  "World Against One, Chapters 5-7" 

Synopsis: 
Shatterstar, Pierce and his men assault Spirals headquarters  little realizing they are walking into a trap. Four female warriors attack, and the turncoat ninja shows his true colors. During the battle, Shatterstar realizes that the walls are holographic, the room phony  and he locates the way into Spirals command center, a "dimensional womb" where platforms float in a starry void. Shatterstar and Spiral duel, and Spiral gains the Annihilation blade and knocks Pierce off a platform, condemning him to fall for eternity. Shatterstar knocks the blade out of her hand, and she leaps after it  Shatterstar leaping after her, as she conjures a dimensional portal in their path  and Shatterstar wakes up somewhere else. He is sucker-punched by a towering figure  who looks almost exactly like Cable. 

Appearances: 
Shatterstar 
Dominicus Pierce 
Spiral 
Roundhouse (one of Spirals female warriors) 
Cable (alternate-universe) 

Temporal references: 
The issue occurs over one night, likely the night after #1. Again, converting to Eastern Standard for Pauls calendar, this would be the "day" after the "day" of #1. People on the streets of Madripoor are wearing long sleeves. 

-------- 

XFOR:SH #3  "World Against One, Chapters 8-11" 

Synopsis: 
Shatterstar discovers that he has landed on a parallel earth, and that Spiral rigged her dimensional portal so that he arrived here three years after she did. In that time, she has conquered almost all of this world  and slain its Shatterstar. This Cable believes him to be an assassin in disguise, but when they are both ambushed by Spirals troops, Cable changes his mind and brings Shatterstar back to their base. Cables small strike force is the last rebellion against Spiral, who has now taken the name Apocalypse. Cable suddenly receives a psychic transmission from Sunspot, who has spent the last six months infiltrating Spirals castle  he almost stole back the Annihilation blade, but was discovered and captured. Hoping to rescue him, Cables force mounts up the Lockheeds for a last, desperate assault on Spirals floating fortress 

Appearances: 
Shatterstar 
Cable (alternate-universe) 
Caliban (alternate-universe) 
Sunspot (alternate-universe) 
Boomer (alternate-universe) 
Spiral / Apocalypse II 
the Lockheeds (7 shown  large alternate-universe versions of Lockheeds race, used as transportation. At least 9 are shown in #4, so the other 2 or more are BTS in this issues attack scene.) 
an unidentified bald black man, probably a counterpart of an X-Force member. Jesse Bedlam? 
Counselor Neimus 
Zynn, a guard 

FB appearances: 
Spiral / Apocalypse II 
Sunspot (alternate-universe) 
Boomer (alternate-universe) 
Cable (alternate-universe) 
unidentified man (alt. Jess Bedlam?) 

Temporal references: 
The entire issue occurs in one day, in another dimension. Assuming time flows the same there, its still the same day as issue #2. Spiral has been there for "nearly" three years, having manipulated the portal so that she and Shatterstar arrived at different times. The recap page of this issue states that the series occurs "several months before" XFOR2 #1-6. 

Notes: 
The flashback is symbolic of the events of the three years Spiral spent conquering that dimension  she is shown in shadow with her hands on her hips, flames and ruins behind her, as the remnants of Cables band of soldiers stare with determination at the viewer. The FB occurs between pp.20-21 of issue #2. During this time, Spiral took on the name Apocalypse  although the next time we see her, in UX #460-461, shes back to serving Mojo and using the name Spiral. 

(And yes, this series must predate UX #460  it occurs before XFOR2 #1, which in turn occurs before UX #453.) 

This world seems a lot more fantasy-oriented than the Marvel Universe  full-size Lockheeds and multi-jawed monsters abound, and most of the characters swordfight. This was pretty clearly an alternate dimension long before Spiral got there. Therefore, I tried not to assume that these characters had the same real names as the MU characters  but with the exception of Boomers last name, they were all confirmed in dialogue. (Cable was even called "Dayspring" by one of his foes.) So, although we can very likely assume that Boomers real last name is Smith, I decided not to make that leap. 

-------- 

XFOR:SH #4  "World Against One, Chapter 12" 

Synopsis: 
Spiral throws Sunspot over the side of her floating castle, but he is rescued by Boomer on her Lockheed. While Cables forces attack Spirals troops, Shatterstar engages her in a swordfight. He is on the verge of defeating her, when he is attacked by Dominicus Pierce! Using her time-manipulation powers, Spiral had let Pierce fall through the void for over a hundred years, then retrieved him  and now he owes her his life. While Shatterstar battles Pierce, Spiral jumps to Boomers Lockheed, and kills it with the Annihilation blade. The dying creature smashes into the castle, knocking Boomer, Spiral and Pierce over the side  Sunspot catches the former two, while Pierce is fried by a blast of fire from Cables mount. 

Later, with Spiral captured and her reign over, Cable prepares to send Shatterstar and the Annihilation blade home. After some "questioning" by Boomer, Spiral provided the technology to open the portal  and Cable sends Shatterstar through, a final psychic message ringing in his head as he returns to Madripoor. Later, we see Shatterstar thinking about the alternate Cables inspiring words, climbing Mount Xixabangma towards a sacred temple 

Appearances: 
Shatterstar 
Spiral / Apocalypse II 
Sunspot (alternate-universe) 
Cable (alternate-universe) 
Boomer (alternate-universe) 
Dominicus Pierce 
the Lockheeds (at least 9 shown) 
Caliban (alternate-universe), BTS? (3 shadowed members of Cables team shown) 
unidentified man (alt. Jesse Bedlam?), BTS? (same rationale) 

Notes: 
I guess Dominicus Pierce is an immortal of some sort. He didnt need food and didnt age while falling for a century. Looks like he can die by fire, though 

Temporal references: 
Assuming that time flows at the same rate in both dimensions, pp.1-21 occur on the same day as issues #2-3. Shatterstar arrives back in Madripoor in the daytime, making it the day after the nighttime seen in #2  but converting to Eastern Standard, I believe it would still occur on the same "day". 

P.22, where Shatterstar climbs a mountain on the border of Nepal and Tibet  seeking out the temple Cable finds him at in XFOR2 #1  likely occurs a few days later. Shatterstar is still pondering the alternate Cables message about finding a place for himself in this world, and knowing him, its likely he didnt wait too long to act on it. There are no temporal clues in either the Madripoor or Nepal/Tibet scenes, except for clear blue skies. Shatterstar wears a long-sleeved shirt or light jacket and jeans while climbing the mountain. 

So, the whole series occurs "several months" before XFO2 #1 (which in turn occurs between UX #447-453), and breaks down like this: 

Day 1  XFOR:SH #1 
Day 2  XFOR:SH #2-3, #4 pp.20-21. Madripoorians wear long sleeves. 
Day 5-ish?  XFOR:SH #4 p.22. Shatterstar wears long sleeves. 


And there you have it. 

-Jeph! 

-------- 

MCP-style write-ups: 

*PIERCE, DOMINICUS 
XFOR:SH 1 
XFOR:SH 2 
XFOR:SH 4 

SHATTERSTAR II / GAVEEDRA-7 / BENJAMIN RUSSELL 
*XFOR:SH 1-FB 
NM 100-FB 
 
XFOR 99 
*XFOR:SH 1 
*XFOR:SH 2 
*XFOR:SH 3 
*XFOR:SH 4 
XFOR2 1 
 

SPIRAL / "RICOCHET" RITA 
 
EXILES 19 
*XFOR:SH 1 
*XFOR:SH 2 
*XFOR:SH 3-FB 
*XFOR:SH 3 
*XFOR:SH 4 
UX 460 
UX 461 


*NEIMUS 
XFOR:SH 3 

*ROUNDHOUSE 
XFOR:SH 2 

*ZYNN 
XFOR:SH 3 


*BOOMER / TABITHA (ALT. UNIVERSE) 
XFOR:SH 3-FB 
XFOR:SH 3 
XFOR:SH 4 

*CABLE / NATHAN SUMMERS / "DAYSPRING" (ALT. UNIVERSE) 
XFOR:SH 3-FB 
XFOR:SH 2 
XFOR:SH 3 
XFOR:SH 4 

*CALIBAN (ALT. UNIVERSE) 
XFOR:SH 3 
XFOR:SH 4-BTS 

*SUNSPOT / ROBERTO DACOSTA (ALT. UNIVERSE) 
XFOR:SH 3-FB 
XFOR:SH 3 
XFOR:SH 4

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2005 08:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Jeph. Time to strike another story off the "to do" list. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2005 08:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Worth the wait, wasn't it. :p 

Which would you like to see me tackle next -- Gambit v4 #1-9 or Nightcrawler v3 #1-6? Or something else entirely? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 06:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'd say either of those two would be high on the priority list. Thanks. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Posted: 11 Oct 2005 12:04 pm    Post subject: Marvel Presents #3-8
By scottandrewhutchins

Aleta is the sister/shared body of Starhawk. Tara, Sita, and John are children in their care. These four characters first appeared in Defenders #29. 

Yondu, Martinex, Vance Astro, and Charlie-27 first appeared in MArvel Superheroes #18, but I don't have that issue for analysis. 

M/PRS #3 
Yondu 
Martinex 
Starhawk 
Charlie-27 
Vance Astro 
newly-freed child 
Koord, Badoon Governor of Sol-III 
primitive human 
German scientist 
Foreman (Charlie-27's boss for one day) 
Paula (stripper) 
Drunkard heckling Vance 

M/PRS #4 
Vance Astro 
Martinex 
Starhawk 
Yondy 
Charlie-27 
Aleta 
Tara 
Sita 
John 
Nikki (first appearance) 
Nikki's mother 
Nikki'e father 
Karanada (first appearance) 

M/PRS 5 
Vance Astro 
Martinex 
Nikki 
Charlie-27 
Yondu 
Starhawk 
Sod, Mr. Slech's gardener 
Mr. Slech 
man falling out of elevator 
pawn shop clerk 
Blackie and his street brutes 
Prexy, The 
Hippie nudist with butterfly wings 
Jake (car thief) 
Mac (murderer) 
Big Budd 
Tentacle Sister 
Crusty Old Hag 
Dr. Roh-Ma 
Dr. Pazz-Ko 

M/PRS #6 
Vance Astro 
Starhawk 
Aleta 
Charlie-27 
Yondu 
Martinex 
Nikki 
Ullah (deity, mentioned) 
Karanada 
a group of nomads 
a sultan who adopts Starhawk, calling him "Hadji" 
Topographical Man 
The Convent of Living Fire (organization) 

M/PRS #7 
Vance Astro 
Starhawk 
Charlie-27 
Martinex 
Yondu 
Nikki 
Aleta 
Karanada 
immolated nun 
mother superior 

M/PRS 8 (mostly a reprint of Silver Surfer #2?) 
Charle-27 
Martinex 
Vance Astro 
Yondu 
Starhawk 
Nikki 
Aleta

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2005 12:17 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

Toporgraphical Man appears in #7 and is bts in 5 & 6. Karanada is BTS in 5. I think it's also in 6 & 7, if I didn't already put that.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 01:44 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

Nikki appears in a flashback in which she witnesses the deaths of her parents in issue #4, whcih is also her first appearance. Her parents appear only in the flashback.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 04:12 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Scott, there's no need to continually reply to your own posts. As long as no one else has replied, you can simply edit your original post to add new thoughts. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 03:13 am    Post subject: Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects #1-6
By Col_Fury

Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects #1 
Rise of the Imperfects pt 1 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Renato Arlem 
Published: July, 2005 

Appearances: 
Thing(Ben Grimm), Mr. Fantastic(Reed Richards)-BTS, Elektra, Wolverine(Logan), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Doctor Roekel, Johnny Ohm(Johnny Savage), Brigade(Sgt. Rick Landau), Maya. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: 2,000 years ago: Pursues by a species of monstrous aliens, a scientist named Roekel experiments with a new weapon - - a cybernetic extract which turns normal creatures into killing machines. But the extract causes test subjects to die horribly within seconds of injection. Roekel needs new test subjects - stronger stock  which he hopes to find on planet Earth. 
Pg7-pg10: The Thing is out getting pizza & tries to call Alicia, but shes not home so he leaves a message. After eating, he gets a call from Reed.(heard but not seen) Ben hangs up & a light shines on him from above 
Pg11-pg14: 12 blocks away Wolverine & Elektra are fighting on rooftops, when a light is shone on them, & theyre pulled up into a space ship. 
Pg15: With test subjects, Roekel calls back the scout ships. The ships are seen in the backgrounds of the three panels. In the foreground, 
Pn1: Maya in the rainforest of Brazil. 
Pn2: Johnny Ohm in prison. 
Pn3: Brigade with some army guys. 
Pg16-pg22: In the space ship, Dr. Roekel injects Thing, Wolverine, Elektra, & Spider-Man(whos already there) with the extract. They each hear voices, then turn green 

References: 
Spider-Man mentions that he was fighting some car thieves before he was brought onto the space ship. 

Reed is heard over the phone, but not seen in this issue. 

Aside from pg1-pg6, the issue all takes place in one night. No moons are seen, but it is raining. 

Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects #2 
Rise of the Imperfects pt 2 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Renato Arlem 
Published: July, 2005 

Appearances: 
Thing(Ben Grimm), Mr. Fantastic(Reed Richards)-BTS, Human Torch(Johnny Storm), Wolverine(Logan), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Elektra, Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Foggy Nelson, Doctor Roekel, Benedetta, Dr. Kilham(Dr. Keith Kilham), Solara(Reiko Kurokaki), Johnny Ohm(Johnny Savage), Brigade(Sgt. Rick Landau), Fault Zone(Maria Petrov), Maya. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Picking up from last issue, Spider-Man, Thing, Wolverine & Elektra are all fighting each other. Storm & Human Torch join in, they are already infected. More fighting, Doctor Roekel & Benedetta watch. 
Pg6: Doctor Roekel talks to Benedetta & Dr. Kilham about the experiment. 
Pg7-pg13: After more fighting, the heroes(& Elektra) shake off the effects of the extract. Storm is upset, so 
Pg14: Doctor Roekel teleports them back into New York. 
Pg15: Satisfied with the results, Roekel wants test subjects without powers. Looking at monitors, we see Solara, Fault Zone, Johnny Ohm, & Brigade in their normal lives. Roekel sends out scout ships. 
Pg16: The next morning, Matt Murdock is in Johnny Ohms cell, talking about his case. 
Pg17: Matt leaves the prison, gets in a plane, goes to his law office, & Foggy tells him that Johnny Ohm just hanged himself in his cell. 
Pg18-pg20: Johnny Ohm, Solara, & Fault Zone are in the space ship, Benedetta appears & injects them. Doctor Roekel will now give them improvements. 
Pg21: The Baxter Building, that night. Ben & Johnny talk about what happened, Johnny says Reed is studying the extract now. 
Pg22: Maya watches a space ship with ugly aliens land in Brazil. 

References: 
Reed is working in the other room, but not seen in this issue. 

No mention is made of Daredevils secret identity, which neither helps nor hinders placement for him. 

This issue spans two days. Pg1-pg15 are the same night as last issue, pg16-pg22 are on the next day. No panel breaks, & no moons are seen. 

Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects #3 
Rise of the Imperfects pt 3 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Renato Arlem 
Published: July, 2005 

Appearances: 
Thing(Ben Grimm), Mr. Fantastic(Reed Richards), Human Torch(Johnny Storm), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Elektra, Storm(Ororo Munroe), Doctor Roekel, Benedetta, Johnny Ohm(Johnny Savage), Fault Zone(Maria Petrov), Solara(Reiko Kurokaki), Brigade(Sgt. Rick Landau), Dr. Kilham(Dr. Keith Kilham), Maya. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: Reed, Ben, & Johnny talk about the discoveries Reed made regarding the extract. 
Pg3: Elektra running through the sewers. 
Pg4-pg7: Doctor Roekel is improving Solara, Fault Zone, Johnny Ohm, & Brigade. 
Pg8-pg9: The next day, Matt Murdock is checking out Ohms cell. 
Pg10-pg11: Johnny & Peter, Ben & Ororo talk about what happened. 
Pg12: Maya watches ugly aliens running through the rain forest. 
Pg13-pg14: Matt, back at his apartment, finds Elektra already there. They talk about what happened, she asks for his help to find Roekel. 
Pg15-pg16: Now with powers, Johnny Ohm, Solara, Fault Zone, Brigade, Benedetta, & Dr. Kilham fight. Brigade threatens Doctor Roekel. 
Pg17-pg18: Elektra & Daredevil in the sewers, Elektra finds the underground space ship & enters. It then flies away. 
Pg19: Doctor Roekel injects Elektra with the extract. 
Pg20-pg22: Doctor Roekel says theyll get to use their new powers soon. 

References: 
This issue spans three days. Pg1-pg7 is the same night as the previous issue, pg8-pg16 are the next day, pg17-pg22 are the following morning. No panel breaks, & no moons are seen. 

Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects #4 
Rise of the Imperfects pt 4 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Renato Arlem 
Published: October, 2005 

Appearances: 
Thing(Ben Grimm), Mr. Fantastic(Reed Richards), Human Torch(Johnny Storm), Invisible Woman(Susan Richards), Wolverine(Logan), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Iron Man(Tony Stark), Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Elektra, Doctor Roekel, Fault Zone(Maria Petrov), Solara(Reiko Kurokaki), Brigade(Sgt. Rick Landau), Johnny Ohm(Johnny Savage), Dr. Kilham(Dr. Keith Kilham), Benedetta, Maya. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: In Avengers Tower, Tony Stark tells Storm, Wolverine, & Spider-Man about his research regarding the extract that he got from Wolverine. Daredevil arrives and tells them about the space ship that just flew away last issue. 
Pg3-pg5: Storm is tracking the space ship, Iron Man is following, Daredevil, Spider-Man, & Wolverine follow in a Quinjet. Wolverine & Daredevil get into a fight. 
Pg6-pg9: Storm finds the ship & hits it with lighting. Not paying attention, shes also knocking the Quinjet around. They get a call from the FF. 
Pg10-pg19: The space ship proceeds to Brazil, where they fight the ugly aliens, & try to capture Maya, fail miserably. 
Pg20: In the Baxter Building, Storm, Thing, Wolverine, Daredevil, Spider-Man, & the Human torch talk about what happened. 
Pg21: Reed, Tony, & Sue talk about the extract, & what to do about it. 
Pg22-pg23: Doctor Roekel is unhappy about the teams performance in Brazil, so he names them the Imperfects. He then gets ready to improve Elektra. 

Reference: 
This issues spans one day, same day as the morning from last issue. 

Spider-Man & Wolverine are in the Avengers; Captain America, Spider-Woman, & Luke Cage are away on a mission. Also, Fury is in charge of SHIELD. 

Sue: We could call SHIELD. 
Tony: And give the stuff to Fury? No, thank you. 

So, this series takes place after the New Avengers are formed, & after Fury regains control of SHIELD. 

Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects #5 
Rise of the Imperfects pt 5 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Renato Arlem 
Published: November, 2005 

Appearances: 
Thing(Ben Grimm), Human Torch(Johnny Storm), Wolverine(Logan), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Iron Man(Tony Stark), Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Elektra, Doctor Roekel, Fault Zone(Maria Petrov), Solara(Reiko Kurokaki), Brigade(Sgt. Rick Landau), Johnny Ohm(Johnny Savage), Dr. Kilham(Dr. Keith Kilham), Benedetta, Maya. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: In Brazil, Maya watches Elektra kill an alien & steal some crystals. 
Pg5-pg6: A two-page spread of various FlashBacks for the members of the Imperfects previous lives: 
Brigade in a war. 
Solara in a lab explosion. 
Dr. Kilham in a lab. 
Fault Zone in a car accident. 
Benedetta being tortured as a young girl. 
Johnny Ohm in an electric chair. 
Pg7-pg9: Doctor Roekel tells them that they are now connected, & that Elektra is their boss. 
Pg10-pg21: Wolverine, Thing, Daredevil, Storm, Iron Man, & Human Torch arrive in Brazil, looking for the Imperfects. Various characters meet each other, they all eventually end up fighting. 
Pg22: Storm & Iron Man have been infected with the extract! 

Reference: 
This issue spans one day, same day as last issue. A setting sun is seen on pg10 in Brazil. 

Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects #6 
Rise of the Imperfects pt 6 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Renato Arlem 
Published: December, 2005 

Appearances: 
Thing(Ben Grimm), Mr. Fantastic(Reed Richards), Human Torch(Johnny Storm), Wolverine(Logan), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Iron Man(Tony Stark), Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Elektra, Doctor Roekel, Fault Zone(Maria Petrov), Solara(Reiko Kurokaki), Brigade(Sgt. Rick Landau), Johnny Ohm(Johnny Savage), Dr. Kilham(Dr. Keith Kilham), Benedetta, Maya. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: More fighting. 
Pg6: In the Baxter Building, Reed has finished collating the data & uploads a reversal process for the extract to Iron Man. Iron Man then frees Storm. 
Pg7-pg9: Iron Man frees the Imperfects, but Elektra doesnt want to be freed. She still wants to take Maya to Doctor Roekel. 
Pg10-pg14: The ugly aliens attack! Everyone fights the aliens, the Maya discovers that her village is destroyed & everyone she knows is dead. 
Pg15-pg16: Doctor Roekel arrives and takes the Imperfects & Maya away, but not Elektra. 
Pg17-pg18: That night at the Baxter Building, Ben, Johnny, Reed, & Elektra talk about what happened.(surprise!) 
Pg19-pg20: On the space ship, Roekel has improved Maya, she is now one of the Imperfects. However, she isnt given a code-name. 

Reference: 
This issue spans one day, same day as last issue. 

With the exception of the 2,000 years ago segment, this series spans 4 days. Heres the breakdown for easy reference: 

2,000 years ago; MN: I 1 pg1-pg6 
Day 1; MN: I 1 pg7-pg22 
Day 1; MN: I 2 pg1-pg15 
Day 2; MN: I 2 pg16-pg 22 
Day 2; MN: I 3 pg1-pg7 
Day 3; MN: I 3 pg8-pg16 
Day 4; MN: I 3 pg17-pg22 
Day 4; MN: I 4 
Day 4; MN: I 5 
Day 4; MN: I 6 

And, of course: 

Thing/Benjamin J. Grimm 
 
MN: I 1 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Mr. Fantastic/Reed Richards 
 
MN: I 1-BTS 
MN: I 2-BTS 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 6 

Human Torch II/Johnny Storm 
 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Invisible Woman/Sue Storm Richards 
 
MN: I 4 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
 
MN: I 1 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Spider-Man/Peter Benjamin Parker 
 
MN: I 1 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Elektra/Elektra Natchios 
 
MN: I 1 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Storm/Ororo Munroe 
 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Daredevil/Matt Michael Murdock 
... 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Nelson, Franklin Foggy 
 
MN: I 2 

Iron Man/Tony Stark 
 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Roekel, Doctor 
MN: I 1 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Maya 
MN: I 1 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Johnny Ohm/Johnny Savage 
MN: I 5-FB 
{MN: I 1} 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Fault Zone/Maria Petrov 
MN: I 5-FB 
{MN: I 2} 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Solara/Reiko Kurokaki 
MN: I 5-FB 
{MN: I 2} 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Brigade/Sgt. Rick Landau 
MN: I 5-FB 
{MN: I 1} 
MN: I 2 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Dr. Kilham/Keith Kilham, Dr. 
MN: I 5-FB 
{MN: I 2} 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Benedetta 
MN: I 5-FB 
{MN: I 2} 
MN: I 3 
MN: I 4 
MN: I 5 
MN: I 6 

Feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 07:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Col_Fury. I'm hoping to incorporate recent analyses into the draft calendar in a few days. I'll let you know if I have questions.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 05:12 pm    Post subject: Shanna the She-Devil v2 #1-7
By Col_Fury

Shanna the She-Devil, v2 #1 
the Killing Season pt 1 
W & D: Frank Cho 
Published: April, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shanna, Doc, Columbo, Dr. Elsa, & some guys. 

Synopsis: 
A group enters a Nazi science facility in the Savage Land. They find 8 tanks which contain 8 nude women, one of which is released, the other 7 are dead. The men split up into groups of two to look for supplies, after they find a dead, mutilated scientist. One group finds medical supplies & a questionable packet, all labeled in German. Another group finds a woman who speaks German,(Dr. Elsa) then theyre attacked by a dinosaur. One is killed, the other(Columbo) loses an eye & half his face. Columbo & Dr. Elsa meet up with the rest, & the dinosaur attacks again. Another man dies, then Shanna breaks the dinosaurs neck. 

References: 
The series is narrated by Docs Medical Logs. 

Medical Log: April 6. Its been 3 years, 10 months, and 23 days since our unit crash-landed on this godforsaken land. 

This issue spans one day, on April 6. 

Shanna the She-Devil, v2 #2 
the Killing Season pt 2 
W & D: Frank Cho 
Published: May, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shanna, Doc, Columbo, Dr. Elsa, & some guys. 

Synopsis: 
At the camp the men made, Shanna kills an attacking dinosaur. Shanna & Dr. Elsa are now speaking English. That afternoon, Shanna takes a shower in a waterfall & has an adventure with an alligator. At dusk, going through a supply inventory, one of the men opens the questionable packet found last issue, which releases a fast-acting biological weapon. 

References: 
Medical Log: July 18 

This issue takes place in one day, a setting sun in the Savage Land is seen on pg19. 

Shanna learned basic English in 2 weeks, & mastered the language by the 5th week. 

The men named her Shanna because of her resemblance to the comic book character. 

Doc refers to it as a 70-year-old Nazi lab, a topical reference, but it places this series in the current day, give or take. 

Shanna the She-Devil, v2 #3 
the Killing Season pt 3 
W & D: Frank Cho 
Published: June, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shanna, Doc, Columbo, Dr. Elsa, & some guys. 

Synopsis: 
Shanna, Doc, & 2 others decide to go back to the lab to get the antidote for the virus. Later that day while setting up camp for the night, a dinosaur attacks & kills one of the men, then Shanna kills the dinosaur. On Day 3, they arrive at the lab. 

References: 
Medical Log: July 20 Doc & Shanna leave the camp on this day, noted as Day 1 in Docs medical log. 

The virus kills everyone infected, in 8 days the antidote is useless. So they must return with the antidote before then, 7 days at the latest. 

Pg22: Day 3, no panel breaks. 

This issue spans three days; pg1-21 is July 20, pg22 is July 22, we do not see July 21. 

Shanna the She-Devil, v2 #4 
the Killing Season pt 4 
W & D: Frank Cho 
Published: July, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shanna, Doc, Columbo, & some guys. 

Synopsis: 
Entering the lab found last issue, they find the antidote quickly. After Shanna finds the incubator tanks holding her dead sisters, they find a jeep & some dynamite. 
Back at the base camp, the same day, Columbo shoots some invading dinosaurs. 
The jeep is stuck, then the other guy in the group is eaten by a dinosaur. After a fight, Doc blows the dinosaurs head off with some dynamite. The next day, the jeep runs out of gas. 

References: 
This issue is the same day as last issue, pg22 is Day 4, no panel breaks. 

This issue spans two days, pg1-21 is July 22, pg22 is July 23. The sun is rising on pg22, so its dawn on July 23. 

The base camp scene is on pg9, no panel breaks, in case anyones interested. 

The Nazi lab was constructed during WWII. 

Shanna the She-Devil, v2 #5 
the Killing Season pt 5 
W & D: Frank Cho 
Published: August, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shanna, Doc, Columbo, some guys, & a bunch of burning corpses. 

Synopsis: 
Dinosaurs are seen eating the dinosaur killed last issue. 
At the base camp, most of the men are dead & the survivors are burning the bodies. 
Almost back at the base camp, Doc & Shanna discover hundreds of migrating dinosaurs. They open a path with some dynamite & start to run 

References: 
Columbo mentions yesterdays conversation seen last issue, which would put pg11-pg12 on Day 4, July 23. 

Day 6 starts on pg13, but Doc labels it as July 24 in his log. However, he mentions dehydration & exhaustion, so maybe hes fuzzy on the dates but Day 6 seems to be correct. Math dictates, however, that Day 6 is July 25. 

Dinosaurs are seen eating the dinosaur killed in issue 4 on pg1-pg10 in the morning, most likely the day after it was killed. 

Pg1-pg10: morning of July 23 
Pg11-pg12: July 23 
Pg13-pg22: July 25 

Shanna the She-Devil, v2 #6 
the Killing Season pt 6 
W & D: Frank Cho 
Published: September, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shanna, Doc. 

Synopsis: 
Hanna & Doc are running through the valley of dinosaurs from last issue. However, Docs leg gets caught under a boulder after a landslide, & dinosaurs are closing in on Shanna & the trapped Doc 

References: 
Same day as last issue, noted as Day 6. They must get the antidote to camp in less than 24 hours. Also, its before noon. 

The issue all takes place in one day. 

Shanna the She-Devil, v2 #7 
the Killing Season pt 7 
W & D: Frank Cho 
Published: September, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shanna, Doc, Columbo, & some guys. 

Synopsis: 
Shanna is administering the antidote at the base camp, then goes off to destroy the bridge to avert a dinosaur attack. Doc arrives with one less leg, & says that everythings going to be all right. 

References: 
Same day as last issue, theres a setting sun on pg22. 

The issue all takes place in one day. 

This is a new Shanna the She-Devil, not the one married to Ka-Zar. Also, shes only ever called Shanna, with no She-Devil attached. 

No one is given a full name in this series. Columbo doesnt get a last name, & Doc isnt given any name. Ill only list characters MCP-style that had an impact on the plot. They may turn up again, seeing as theres rumors of another Shanna series by Cho. However, we may not want to list them in the MCP, seeing as they dont have full names 

And, just for clarity: 

April 6: SSD2 1 
July18: SSD2 2 
July 20: SSD2 3 pg1-pg21 
July 22: SSD2 3 pg22 
July 22: SSD2 4 pg1-pg21 
July 23: SSD2 4 pg22 
July 23: SSD2 5 pg1-pg10 
July 23: SSD2 5 pg11-pg12 
July 25: SSD2 5 pg13-pg22 
July 25: SSD2 6 
July 25: SSD2 7 

Shanna 
SSD2 1 
SSD2 2 
SSD2 3 
SSD2 4 
SSD2 5 
SSD2 6 
SSD2 7 

Doc 
SSD2 1 
SSD2 2 
SSD2 3 
SSD2 4 
SSD2 5 
SSD2 6 
SSD2 7 

Columbo 
SSD2 1 
SSD2 2 
SSD2 3 
SSD2 4 
SSD2 5 
SSD2 7 

Dr. Elsa 
SSD2 1 
SSD2 2 
SSD2 3 

And there it is!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 05:54 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
This is a new Shanna the She-Devil, not the one married to Ka-Zar. 
<<<

If this is not the Shanna that's married to Ka-Zar, I would tend to take that as a clue that it's not canon. 


watching: clemson vs north carolina state

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 08:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
If this is not the Shanna that's married to Ka-Zar, I would tend to take that as a clue that it's not canon.  
<<<

That's not the way I'm reading this analysis. Col_Fury reports that the title character is named Shanna because her resemblance to Ka-Zar's wife prompt the other characters in the series call her that. Granted, they notice the resemblence from Shanna's depiction in comic books, but we know that Marvel comics based on "real" MU characters exist in the MU. 

I don't think there's anything here to suggest the story is not canonical. On the other hand, the characters in this series wouldn't qualify for inclusion in the MCP yet, not necessarily because they lack surnames but because they haven't made appearances in other titles. So far, this story is one that doesn't intersect with canonical Earth-616...but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen in canonical Earth-616. I think this series is eligible for the calendar until proven non-canonical. 

BTW, thanks for the analysis, Col_Fury.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Oct 2005 03:34 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I don't think there's anything here to suggest the story is not canonical. 
<<<

I think the fact that Shanna is referenced exclusively as a comic book character points very strongly in that direction - not absolutely conclusively, but strongly enough to treat the book as non-canon until some positive evidence to the contrary comes along. 

Although many Marvel characters do exist in comics published within the Marvel Universe, MU inhabitants clearly understand those to be fictionalised accounts of the activities of real people. So it's unlikely that the MU public would refer to characters from such comics as "comic book characters", any more than we would use the term "movie character" to refer to the people depicted in biopics.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Oct 2005 04:41 am    
By Col_Fury

Yes, but Shanna Plunder isn't exactly the most well-known super hero. It's very possible that these guys aren't up on their hero knowledge & only heard of her through the comics based on her. I mean, it's a girl running around in a bikini. They're military guys, on leave for months at a time, what do you think they were reading? Or rather, looking at?  

Also, I thought the general rule of thumb was to assume a book is canon until proven otherwise. I don't see anything in these issues that contradicts established continuity, or anything that would suggest non-canonicity... 

And since she hasn't run into any other MU characters yet, it's all academic at this point anyway. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 06:28 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Also, I thought the general rule of thumb was to assume a book is canon until proven otherwise.  
<<<

That may be appropriate for mainstream Marvel books, but SHANNA was originally commissioned for the frequently non-canon Max imprint, and so to my mind, it doesn't benefit from the automatic presumption of canonicity to the same extent.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Oct 2005 07:20 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I think the fact that Shanna is referenced exclusively as a comic book character  
<<<

Is that really true? What is the exact dialog? I think that Col_Fury has a point that the guys may only know what Shanna looks like through a comic book rendition of her. 

Quote: 
That may be appropriate for mainstream Marvel books, but SHANNA was originally commissioned for the frequently non-canon Max imprint, and so to my mind, it doesn't benefit from the automatic presumption of canonicity to the same extent. 


MAX is frequently, but not always, non-canonical. Because some MAX titles are valid, we can't automatically dismiss this title. To me, our rule of presumption of canonicity stands until otherwise refuted. And the comic book reference doesn't seem strong enough to constitute a refutation.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Oct 2005 01:53 pm    
By ShadZ

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
A group enters a Nazi science facility in the Savage Land.  
<<<

Maybe I missed something on my reading, but I don't think they said it was the Savage Land. Sure, it is someplace filled with dinosaurs, but I got the impression it was an island, not a hidden Antarctic valley. 

But I may not be remembering it right, and I don't have the comics in front of me...
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 05:02 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I only read the first issue and skimmed the second, but I'm pretty sure you're right about that - it's an island, not the Savage Land.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 05:21 pm    
By Col_Fury

The only bit that describes where it is, is: 

Quote: 
>>>
Medical Log: April 6. Its been 3 years, 10 months, and 23 days since our unit crash-landed on this godforsaken land.  
<<<

Nothing is said about oceans, or even the arctic , for that matter. Nowhere in the seven issues does anyone say "island," or "Savage Land." The characters wouldn't know what the Savage Land is, anyway, let alone be able to name it. 

I remember reading an interview with Frank Cho saying it's in the Savage Land,(because that's wher dinosaurs are in the MU, & he likes drawing dinosaurs) that's why I labeled it as such. Of course, I can't find that interview at the moment.  

Here's something, though... 

Marvel Previews 18 
For book shipping April 2005, pg31: 
Quote: 
>>>
Shanna, the She-Devil #3(of7) 
Written by Frank Cho 
Pencils & cover by Frank Cho 
What could be worse than a dozen hungry raptors? How about the guy who tops the neighborhood food chain? Doc and his crew race across the Savage Land - and straight into the drooling jaws of a ravenous T-Rex. Can Shanna save them? 
32 pgs./Marvel PSR+ ...$3.50 
<<<

The bold text is mine, not Marvel's. If I can find the interview, I'll post the important bits here.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 19 Oct 2005 03:55 am    Post subject: M/CP 124/4: Solo
By Col_Fury

M/CP 124/4: Solo 
"Death Flight" 
W: Eric Fein 
D: Mark Bagley 
Published: March 1993 

Appearances: 
Tarantula(Capt. Luis Alvarez), Solo. 

Synopsis: 
Solo teleports into a(parked) plane that's been hijacked by terrorists. Tarantula is in charge & says that he did this(& other recent hijackings) to lure Solo to him. They take off for Delvadia, but Solo fights back, saves the hostages, kills most of Tarantula's men, & crashes the plane. 

References: 
It's all in one night, & a full moon is seen while the plane is in flight. 

Tarantula is upset with Solo because of the events seen in M/CP 88/3, thanks to an editor's note. 

At the end of the story, both Solo & Tarantula think the other is dead, but neither one is, actually. 

Of course, some placement suggestions: 

Tarantula III/Capt. Luis Alvarez 
... 
CA 413 
*M/CP 124/4 
V: Sta 1/2-FB-BTS 
... 

Oddly enough, M/CP 88/3 is not currently listed in Solo's chronology. 

Solo 
... 
ASM@ 26/3 
*M/CP 88/3 
ASM 366-FB 
... 
NF3 45 
*M/CP 124/4 
ASM@ 27/2 
... 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 53

Posted: 19 Oct 2005 04:01 am    Post subject: M/CP 123/3-126/3: She-Hulk
By Col_Fury

M/CP 123/3: She-Hulk 
Adrenazons Revenge pt. 1 
Theres a new girl in Town 
W: Kelly Corverse 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: March 1993 

Appearances: 
She-Hulk(Jennifer Walters), Adrenazon(Adrian Lynn), Nosferata(Purple Hayes), Louise Weezie Mason, Freda. 

Synopsis: 
While getting caught up on paperwork in her apartment, She-Hulk gets a phone call and then goes to the hospital. When she arrives, shes accused of MURDER! The police have witnesses & photographs showing a green woman tearing up the place & killing a doctor. She runs off! 
An hour later at a payphone, She-Hulk calls her friend Weezie who says that both the FF & Avengers have been trying to get a hold of She-Hulk. 
Nosferata hears the news of She-Hulks murderous rampage, decides to go to New York. She tells Freda to get the Nosferauto ready. 
That evening in the dead doctors office, She-Hulk discovers that his adrenaline research funding ran out a year & a half ago how was he funding it? Nosferata arrives, accuses She-Hulk of villainy, but they team up instead & find a hidden secret laboratory with preserved mutated animals on display. Down the hall, Adrian Lynn calls the police. Adrenazon attacks! Nosferata swings away, Adrenazon also runs when she sees squad cars through the window. Adrian screams to let the police know where She-Hulk is, who jumps out the window. Adrian looks malicious. 

References: 
These 8 pages take place all in one day. 

An editors note reminds us that She-Hulk & Nosferata met in S-H2 19 & 20, so this must take place at least after those issues. 

M/CP 124/3: She-Hulk 
Adrenazons Revenge pt. 2 
Deadly Ringer 
W: Kelly Corverse 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: March 1993 

Appearances: 
She-Hulk(Jennifer Walters), Adrenazon(Adrian Lynn), Nosferata(Purple Hayes), Louise Weezie Mason, Freda. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3pn3: Adrenazon, looking for She-Hulk, is tossing cars around. She-Hulk catches one, so Adrenazon throws her into a building, then explains her origin. 
Pg3pn4-pg3pn9-FB: 2 years ago, Adrians husband Michael was driving drunk & killed two pedestrians, Adrians son, & crippled Adrian. Jennifer Walters(as She-Hulk) was the prosecuting attorney which led to Michaels conviction, imprisonment, & eventual suicide. Adrian eventually met Dr. Stooplemoor who was researching adrenaline. 
Pg4pn1-pg4pn2: She-Hulk is confused. 
Pg4pn3-pg5pn2-FB: The adrenaline research worked & Adrian regained the use of her legs. If she took more, she could simulate super strength. So she painted herself green & got a fright wig, killed Stooplemoor & framed She-Hulk. 
Pg5pn3-pg5pn7: Adrenazon knocks out She-Hulk & runs off as the police arrive. 
Pg6: Nosferata, Weezie, & Freda go over the paperwork found last issue, discover that Stooplemoor had been selling illegal prescriptions to fund his research. After a news report saying that She-Hulk has been captured, they drive to New York. 
Pg7: Nosferata drops Weezie off at She-Hulks apartment, where Adrenazon is dressed in She-Hulks clothes. 
Pg8: She-Hulk in prison. 

References: 
These 8 pages all happen in one day, the day after last issue. 

M/CP 125/3: She-Hulk 
Adrenazons Revenge pt. 3 
Its Not Easy Being Green 
W: Kelly Corverse 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: April 1993 

Appearances: 
She-Hulk(Jennifer Walters), Adrenazon(Adrian Lynn), Nosferata(Purple Hayes), Louise Weezie Mason. 

Synopsis: 
Adrenazon now thinks that she is She-Hulk, Weezie thinks its because the adrenaline formula is breaking down & driving her crazy. 
Nosferata breaks She-Hulk out of jail. 
Adrenazon & Weezie bake cookies. 
She-Hulk & Nosferata drive to She-Hulks apartment. 
Adrenazon loses to Weezie at cards, freaks out. She-Hulk & Nosferata jump in through the window & fight! Adrenazon knocks She-Hulk out. 

References: 
All in one day, same day as last issue. 

M/CP 126/3: She-Hulk 
Adrenazons Revenge pt. 4 
To Thine Own Self be True 
W: Kelly Corverse 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: April 1993 

Appearances: 
She-Hulk(Jennifer Walters), Adrenazon(Adrian Lynn), Nosferata(Purple Hayes), Freda. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: She-Hulk & Adrenazon fight, She-Hulk wins, Adrenazon reverts back to Adrian. The cops show up & shoot lasers at She-Hulk, but Adrian jumps in the way. She-Hulk is sad. 
Pg8pn1-pg8pn2: Nosferata comments that Adrian will be all right. She just returned to the Nosferattic, & mentions that She-Hulk has to take care of something before coming over to hang out. 
Pg8pn3-pg8pn6: The next day, She-Hulk & Adrian visits Michaels grave. 

References: 
These 8 pages span 2 days, pg1-pg8pn2 is the same day as last issue, the rest is next. 

All in all, the story spans three days. 

Herere some MCP-style placement suggestions: 

Nosferata/Purple Hayes 
 
S-H2 20 
*M/CP 123/3 
*M/CP 124/3 
*M/CP 125/3 
*M/CP 126/3 

Mason, Louise Weezie 
 
S-H2 49 
*M/CP 123/3 
*M/CP 124/3 
*M/CP 125/3 
S-H2 50-FB 
... 

Adrenazon/Adrian Lynn 
*M/CP 124/3-FB pg3pn4-pg3pn9 
*M/CP 124/3-FB pg4pn3-pg5pn2 
*{M/CP 123/3} 
*M/CP 124/3 
*M/CP 125/3 
*M/CP 126/3 

She-Hulk/Jennifer Walters 
 
CA 408/3 
*M/CP 123/3 
*M/CP 124/3 
*M/CP 125/3 
*M/CP 126/3 
S-H2 50-FB 
... 

As far as M/CP 124/3-FB pg3pn5 for She-Hulk goes, its 2 years ago. Topical yes, but If the current story takes place before S-H2 50, & 2 years our time equals roughly 1 year Marvel time, then four years ago would place the FB before S-H2 1. Solo Avengers 14/2 has Jen in court, & M/CP 18/3 is almost an advertisement for the new(at the time) ongoing book. So 

She-Hulk/Jennifer Walters 
 
SOLOA 14/2 
*M/CP 124/3-FB pg3pn5 
M/CP 18/3 
S-H2 1 
... 

Arbitrary? Probably, but at least I gave it some thought 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 54

Posted: 19 Oct 2005 06:56 am    Post subject: TOXIN 1-6 analysis
By JLH

TOXIN #1 [JUNE 05] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
"Toxin: The Devil You Know, Part One: The Strange Case of Pat Mulligan and Mr. Hyde" 

Cast: 
COBRA/KLAUS VORHEES (as "King Cobra"; escapee from The Raft) 
TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN 
MEADOWS, OFFICER PAUL (Pat's old partner) 
MISTER HYDE/CALVIN ZABO 
MULLIGAN, GINA (Pat's wife) 
MULLIGAN, EDWARD (Pat's infant son) 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
RAZORFIST III 

Other characters: 
Angel (courier girl for Mr. Klein and new girlfriend for King Cobra) 
Mr. Klein (diamond afficandao) 
group of slaughtered homeless people 


Summary: King Cobra is on the loose, and former cop/current symbiote host Pat Mulligan has plans to take him down. After Cobra makes a diamond heist and picks up a girlfriend during it, Pat pretends to still be a cop, and assists his former partner, Paul Meadows, in interviewing the super villain Mr. Hyde at Ryker's Island. Hyde wants time off from his inhibitor collar so he can resume his "true form" of Mr Hyde instead of the human Zabo. No chance that deal can be made, and the two cops depart, Pat having come along just to keep busy, but refusing to tell Paul why he walked out on his wife and newborn. That night, Pat reads "The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde", while arguing with the symbiotic entity he's hosting within himself. Toxin berates him repeatedly. The next day, Pat watches his wife take their child on a stroll through the park, as she does every day, unaware he's spying from afar. That night, Pat talks to Paul again, wanting to go back to Ryker's to try Hyde again, as he's made a vow to his young son that he's going to do good. Denying he left his family because he's gay, Pat finally reveals to Paul the truth, that he's host to the son of Carnage. The next day, Pat gets to see Hyde, using the recently read book as a topic of discussion. Zabo claims the book is about good & evil, how good is bad, and evil is good, which Pat reluctantly disagrees with, thinking evil can be reformed if taught. Needless to say, Hyde gives Pat a piece of King Cobra's skin he molted before he split. That night, Pat continues reading the book, which Toxin finds boring, but before they can argue like father and son again, the symbiote senses the owner of the scrap of snake skin is nearby. Toxin takes over, covering Pat's body in the usual red and blue "suit", and the pair takes off, soon busting in on King Cobra while he's out of costume, and in bed with his new girlfriend, who soon takes off. Cobra puts up an equal fight, wrapping around Toxin and nearly squeezing him to death, but thanks to his own ability to expand, the symbiote defeats the villain, after a fall through the bed and through the floor below. After dropping the literally tied-up Cobra on the doorstep of NYPD precinct 17, Pat talks about the battle with Toxin, while Spider-Man watches from above. The hero soon confronts the anti-hero, the pair not having seen each other in a while. They go for a web swing across the city, while discussing the villain Razorfist. At that same time, Razorfist is led to a new hideout, where he finds squatters that he quickly cuts to ribbons with his razor fists. Spidey gives Pat an old bloody bandage of Razorfist's, hoping he'll be able to track him with it, since he's busy with one too many villains as it is himself. Pat figures a guy with no hands can't be too tough and agrees. 

Continuity notes: A vague reference to September 11th is made in the first paragraph of the book. 

The breakout at the Raft of Ryker's was "recently", and Mr. Hyde was "left behind" by Cobra, his cellmate during it. 

As I noted before, in this mini-series, the Toxin symbiote now has its own voice. 

Spidey hasn't seen Toxin in "a while", and claims to be "up to his ears in villains these days". 

Calendar notes: Full moon when Toxin tracks down King Cobra. All of the trees in the park and other places are green and have all their leaves, but there's plenty of loose leafs floating around in the breeze (everyone is bundled up). One tree during the final scene with Spidey is reddish and there's lots of leaves about. The sky is either cloudy all the time, or hazy, or both. 


Timeframe: 
Day One (Pages 1-2, King Cobra attacks Klein and meets Angel) 
Day Two (Pages 3-5, Pat & Paul visit Hyde at Ryker's, then Pat talks with Toxin at home at night) 
Day Three (Page 6-8, Pat watches Gina & Ed from afar. That night, talks to Paul about being Toxin) 
Day Four (Pages 9-17, Pat meets Hyde again, tracks Cobra down at night) 
Day Five (Pages 18-23, the next day of that, drops Cobra off, meets with Spidey, while Razorfist finds a home) 

------------------------------------ 
TOXIN #2 [JULY 05] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
"Toxin: The Devil You Know, Part Two: Cut to the Chase" 

Cast: 
TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN 
MEADOWS, OFFICER PAUL (Pat's old partner) 
MULLIGAN, JIM (Pat's ex-cop father) 
MULLIGAN, GINA (Pat's wife-BTS, it's Jim's promise to her that gets him confronting Paul) 
RAZORFIST III 

Other characters: 
Anton (16 year old academic genius, son of lawyers, and self-harmer) 
Lulu (self-harmer and apostle of Razorfist) 
Anton's Mother (voice only) 
Nameless teens and children loyal to Razorfist 
Pair of Robbers in masks (if they're supposed to look like any prominent political figures, the intent is lost on the art.) 
Owner of grocery store and his wife Neeta (Hindus targeted by two gunmen for being Muslims) 
Woman whose husband is named George (finds Pat on her fire escape, has had weirdos out on it before) 

Summary: At night, Pat lets Toxin make the transformation, and the red & blue liquid-suited pair heads out on their search for Raft-escapee Razorfist, using the bloody bandage given to them by Spider-Man. He gets sidetracked into helping the owners of a grocery store against two armed thugs. The fight is offscreen, but the store is tore up by the symbiote, and the robbers are badly mangled, one is unlikely to live. Toxin argues with Pat about how he's doing what the human doesn't have the guts to, and when told hurting people who may deserve it is wrong just because he says so, the symbiote tries to depart, but is pulled back. Meanwhile, downtown, a young teen named Anton is lead to Razorfist's hideout by a girl named Lulu. By working for Razorfist, a group of likeminded kids will do his dirty work, such as cleaning bandages, while he assists them in their desire to cut themselves and such. Elsewhere, Pat's father, retired police officer Jim Mulligan, confronts Paul about the whereabouts of his son, having promised Gina he'd track him down. Anton goes through initiation, Razorfist giving him the "control" he needs by cutting him so expertly with his razor hands that he leaves no wounds behind. He's not as accurate with himself, hence his need for lots of clean bandages. Anyway, Pat, still mad at Toxin for his recent performance, does manage to get the symbiote to behave enough to assist in smelling Razorfist out. Only instead of the villain, Pat finds Anton washing some bandages. The two have a brief talk, and Pat makes it clear that Anton will help lead him to Razorfist or he'll unleash his own inner monster upon the boy. This occurs, Pat heading into RF's headquarters, and ending up in his "secret pit", where he hones his skills by slaughtering stray animals and streetwalkers. Anton regrets his association with Razorfist, and though Lulu argues about how only RF cares for them and all adults suck, he risks his life to help Pat in the pit. After a lot of the defenseless human Pat trying to avoid getting cutted, Toxin finally takes over by turning him into a bow-tie & glasses-wearing, buck-toothed, skinny geek of a man. 

Continuity notes: Toxin mentions that Razorfist is an escapee from The Raft, the first indication of that so far. 

Unless the "Razorfist finds a home" scene in the previous issue took place months prior to where it appeared concurrent to the scene, he's managed to gain a large following of teen cutters in just a day. It's more likely he had this little band of misfits prior to last issue, and merely was in need of a bigger hideout to keep with the increase of (dis)members. 

Calendar notes: Moon is still full on page 3. Foliage is green and full. 

Timeframe: 
Day Five Continued (Pages 1-8, Toxin scours New York City for Razorfist, has battle in grocery store. Anton meets Razorfist) 
Day Six: (Pages 9-22: Jim confronts Paul, Anton is initiated by Razorfist, Pat tracks down Anton, Pat is led into confrontation with Razorfist) 

------------------------------------ 

TOXIN #3 [AUG 05] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
"Toxin: The Devil You Know, Part Three: The Answer, My Friend" 

Cast: 
ANSWER (escapee from The Raft) 
OWL/LELAND OWLSLEY (BTS- Answer is trying to remind him he's back in town, he calls offscreen) 
TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN 
RAZORFIST III 
MULLIGAN, JIM (Pat's ex-cop father) 
MULLIGAN, GINA (Pat's wife) 
MULLIGAN, EDWARD (Pat's infant son) 

Other characters: 
Bank Manager (killed by The Answer) 
Answer's stooge (Young dopey red-haired guy in an eye-mask with a question on it and a costume of the same color as his employer) 
Anton (16 year old academic genius, son of lawyers, and self-harmer) 
Lulu (self-harmer and apostle of Razorfist) 
Nameless teens and children loyal to Razorfist 
Officer Perkins (crooked cop) 
Jeb (crook who shoots cop in the face, hunted by Toxin and killed in return) 
Nameless cop (with a wife and two kids, is killed by Jeb) 


Summary: The Answer, the villain who speaks in questions and answers, kills a bank manager and loots the vault with his sidekick, in an attempt to reestablish himself as a major player in the crime world (and particularly gain the attention of The Owl), after having spent some time in Ryker's. Meanwhile, Toxin has forced Pat to take on the harmless form of the man he calls "Larry", leaving him defenseless against Razorfist. After much pleading, Toxin takes on his usual red & blue monstrous form. Razorfist flees, slashing at Lulu while departing. Though Toxin wants to follow after him, Anton urges Pat to help her, and though the symbiote is confused by the human's concern for the evil child, she's brought to the hospital. What seems to be the next night, Razorfist is in hiding, and learns from his mole on the police force, Officer Perkins, about how an informant with a bloody bandage used it as a bargaining chip, and it ended up in Spider-Man's hands, hence how Toxin found him. Meanwhile, hearing about the Answer's bank manager murdering on the news, Pat has another theological argument with Toxin about what makes a person bad. He soon wanders the streets, thinking about his recent agreement with Toxin, that he'll help to catch the bad guys if he'll convince him why they're bad, which he realizes will be tough to do. The next day, in the park, Gina takes her son Edward for a stroll, and learns from her father in law, Jim Mulligan, about what he learned concerning Pat from Paul. They're unaware Pat is watching nearby, even when he yells at Toxin for making comments about his family (they just chalk it up to his being a nutso). That night, Toxin searches for Razorfist to no avail, since he's now having his minions cover him in perfumes and such to mask his smell. Pat visits Lulu in the hospital, and meets with Anton, who's given up a life of crime, and of self-harming. Lulu will live, but be scarred for life. As Toxin points out the good that came from the evil Razorfist's involvement with the kids' lives, a young cop is killed in a nearby alley. When Pat finds a picture of his wife and two kids, Toxin is convinced of the evil, and they hunt the crook who did it down and slaughter him offscreen. After a shower to get the blood and bone off, Pat regrets giving in to his base desires. He wants to know the answer to finding a balance between Toxin's bloodthirst and his own desire for not having that burden on himself. So, Toxin tracks down the Answer in O'Doyle's Bar, and will let him live if he'll give him an answer he's seeking, about what to do with his misbehaving symbiote. By morning, Answer is back on Ryker's, but still alive, and his answer to Pat is to go to the subway and leap in front of the first train he sees coming. Pat does so. 

Continuity notes: The Answer states he's been on the run from Ryker's Island for "six months, two weeks, three days, five hours, thirty seconds, and counting." 

The Answer wants to get the Owl's attention with his killing of the bank manager, and the robbing of 12 million bucks. Offscreen, the Owl calls him, and Answer ponders calling him back before he's captured. 

Goof: Despite how Toxin's blue word balloons appear on the screen unconnected, when they're never heard by anyone but Pat, when wondering how Razorfist takes a leak on page 4, Razorfist ANSWERS! 

Calendar notes: The majority of the trees in the park (I presume Central Park, though the lack of Punisher chasing muggers around tends to throw me off) have full foliage, but are a reddish brown, with a few loose leaves floating about. 

The moon is still full, but we only see the left half of it, since clouds block the rest. 

Timeframe: 
Day Six Continued (Pages 1-11, Answer kills Bank Manager; Toxin's battle with Razorfist continues; Lulu put in hospital; Razorfist learns of the bandage issue from Perkins; hearing about the Answer on the news, Pat roams the street briefly) 
Day Seven: (Pages 12-20, Pat watches Gina, Ed and Jim in the park. That night, he visits Anton & Lulu at the hospital, kills a cop killer, takes a shower, captures Answer) 
Day Eight: (Pages 21-22, Answer's back in Ryker's at daybreak, and Pat leaps in front of a subway car) 

------------------------------------ 

TOXIN #4 [SEPT 05] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
"Toxin: The Devil You Know, Part Four: Walking Man" 

Cast: 
TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN 
WRECKER III/DIRK GARTHWAITE 
PILEDRIVER II/BRIAN PHILIP CALUSKY 
MULLIGAN, JIM (Pat's ex-cop father) 
MEADOWS, OFFICER PAUL (Pat's old partner) 
MULLIGAN, GINA (Pat's wife) FB only 
MULLIGAN, EDWARD (Pat's infant son) FB only 

Other characters: 
Sergeant Falk (impaled by Picasso's Les Demoiselles D'Avignon during an explosion) 
Blonde/redheaded Female police sergeant or captain (the officer in charge of the MoMA incident. Is nonuniform, and unnamed) 


Summary: Pat survives his leap in front of the subway car when Toxin takes over. While wandering off into the streets, Pat realizes that by playing the suicide card, he's found a way to keep his symbiote in line. Toxin's young, and doesn't know if he'll be able to survive without Pat as a host, so this gives him new leverage. Once back at his apartment, Pat starts up a diary on his laptop about his life with Toxin, including his newest findings. Meanwhile, villains Wrecker and Piledriver break into the Museum of Modern Art. Wrecker's looking for his "substitute crowbar", buried in the foundations by some construction pals of his. Elsewhere, Jim Mulligan confronts Paul Meadows once more, trying use emotional blackmail to get Pat's address from him. It works, and soon Jim shows up at Pat's apartment, and the two finally have a face to face. The explosion at MoMA leads to Paul joining his fellow officers at the scene. Course, not much backup is on its way, since most of the force is at a "realize your potential" training course. After the proud sergeant is killed by a stray painting, Pat appears, mad about Paul's ratting him out. He stresses the need his former brethren police officers are in currently, and how he always runs away when needed most. So Pat finally unleashes Toxin, letting Paul see him in "costume" for the first time. Paul tells the officer in command of the operation to give Toxin 15 minutes lead time before going in. Toxin takes Wrecker & Piledriver (who're using the art pieces as hostage) by surprise (they think he's another piece of art, ala Jacko Metti's Walking Man). Toxin uses Wrecker's own crowbar against him, and ends up bringing the pair in alive. The cops cheer him for the assist, and he's concerned he might start to enjoy the adoration. The diary comes back into play, as Pat recalls to it about how two days after the MoMA incident, he was watching Gina & Edward in the park, when he came up with a new idea. Convincing Toxin it'll make him less suicidal, he had the symbiote change his look to "Larry" again, a pleasant but sad looking fellow and he made his presence known to Gina. He got to see his son Edward take a few faltering steps on the grass, even. Of course, now Toxin wants something in return for this deed... 

Continuity notes: A bearded man sitting on the street with a circle X cap and a sign saying "Doop Lives", under graffiti of the round green X-Statix member, is probably meant to be someone (maybe Peter Milligan). 

Piledriver mentions that they should have hooked up with Bulldozer before doing the job, and the cops hope Spider-Man will show up. 

There's no mention made about Wrecker & Piledriver being escapees from The Raft. But considering how Wrecker's getting his spare crowbar, and there's still the "New Avengers tie-in" thing on the cover, they're probably meant to be. 

Calendar notes: The park still has a mix of green and brown leafed trees. Jacket weather as always (though the baby Ed isn't quite so bundled) 

Timeframe: 
Day Eight Continued (Pages 1-20, Pat survives subway car incident at morning, starts diary, Wrecker & Piledriver attack MoMA; Jim confronts Paul, then finds Pat; Toxin takes on the two criminals) 
Day Ten (Pages 21-22, said to be "two days after the MoMA incident", Toxin disguises Pat and allows him to see Gina & Ed. That night, Pat relays the story to his diary) 

------------------------------------ 

TOXIN #5 [OCT 05] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
"Toxin: The Devil You Know, Part Five: Good Luck, Mulligan, Thanks for the Formaldehyde" 

Cast: 
TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN 
MULLIGAN, GINA (Pat's wife) 
MULLIGAN, EDWARD (Pat's infant son) 
RAZORFIST III 
MULLIGAN, JIM (Pat's ex-cop father) 
MEADOWS, OFFICER PAUL (Pat's old partner) 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 

Other characters: 
Officer Perkins 
Female police sergeant or captain 
Jola Bacciculo (reporter for channel 7) 
Razorfist's child minions (which include the "Piranha Tots", school-uniformed psycho elementary schoolers) 
Samantha (only one of his "kids" named) 


Summary: Gina & Edward continue growing closer to "Larry", unaware it's really Pat in disguise, allowed two hours a day in this form. In exchange, Pat willfully goes "asleep" for two hours at night, while Toxin takes over and roams free, just as long as he commits no homicide, arson, or grand larceny. The days go by, and on day four, Pat awakens to find his apartment filled with stolen hi-fi TV equipment, which he drops off at the local precinct's doorstep. After two weeks, "Larry" and Gina are falling in love. Pat relate to his diary about how he awoke that morning in a strange restaurant, filled with dead customers. Toxin claimed innocence, having been drawn by the smell of fresh blood before the two hours were up. Despite how all died from knife wounds, Pat is concerned he's unleashing a killer. Later, the police are stumped by this incident, having no clues who's behind it. When it's suggested someone contact Toxin for assistance, Officer Meadows makes it know to his fellow officers that he has it on "good authority" Toxin likes his privacy. This turns the sights of Razorfist-mole Officer Perkins onto him. Razorfist shows the stolen security tape of the restaurant massacre to his minion followers, as a precursor to an upcoming event on a Saturday where they'll all kill their families, called "Slasherday". And it just so happens Officer Perkins has news for him that'll put an end to his excessive grooming. On week three of the arrangement with Toxin, "Larry" is grilled by Gina's father in law, Jim Mulligan, who is equally unaware his son is behind the mild-mannered facade. That night, Razorfist releases a tape to the news media, taking credit for the restaurant massacre, and informing them of the "Slasherday" event, unless they deposit enough money to his account. Though Pat's prepared to stop him, Toxin wants his two hours of play, which he reluctantly gives. Meanwhile, Razorfist tortures Paul Meadows to find who and where Toxin is. Back at Pat's place, Toxin reads his diary, and is so angered, destroys the laptop. Hoping to replace it before his human host wakes up, Toxin steals a bunch of computers. It's during this that Spider-Man spots him, and stops him to ask about his hunting down of Razorfist is going, unaware Pat isn't in control. He stops his crime spree by force, and webs him up until he reverts to Pat. They have a talk over coffee, which Spidey comments tastes like formaldehyde. Pat assures the hero that he has his symbiote under control, pointing out the criminals they rounded up recently. He's convinced for now, and departs. Pat severs his agreement with Toxin so they can devote full time to finding Razorfist, but first he, as Larry, says goodbye to Gina and Edward at the park. Back at Pat's place, his father Jim shows up, bringing groceries and wanting to talk about a new guy Gina's met, when Razorfist attacks from the shadows! 

Continuity notes: The cover for this issue only, lacks the "New Avengers tie-in" icon. 

Calendar notes: On the night of Day Twelve, the moon is a waxing crescent. Falling leaves are evident in all days concerning the park around day Fourteen, but by day Thirty-One, the park is still fully green with no leaves falling. Day thirty-two may have a waxing crescent, or it may be full, we only see the right half, the rest is cloud blocked. 

Timeframe: 
Day Twelve (Pages 1-3, said to be 'day two' of Pat's agreement with Toxin. Pat meets Gina & Ed at a coffee house, at night, Toxin gets first glimpse of diary) 
Day Fourteen (Page 4, panels 1-3, after a polaroid perfect day at the park, Pat awakens to find stolen goods in his apartment, which he returns) 
Day Twenty-four (Page 4, panel 4 to Page 9, said to be "week two" of the agreement. So I mark it literally as the 14th day of it. Pat awakens in the restaurant, suspects Toxin. Razorfist shows tape of his killing of the people to his followers, Perkins fingers Meadows to him) 
Day Thirty One (Page 10 to 20, panel 3, said to be "week three" of the agreement, so I mark it as day 21 of it. Pat meets Jim as Larry. Razorfist releases tape talking about the upcoming "Slasherday", tortures Meadows. Toxin breaks laptop, confronts Spidey, who soon talks to Pay) 
Day Thirty Two (Page 20 panel 4 to page 21, Pat as Larry says goodbye to Gina, Jim comes by Pat's and is attacked by Razorfist) 
------------------------------------ 

TOXIN #6 [NOV 05] 
Writer: Peter Milligan 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
"Toxin: The Devil You Know, Part Six: The Razor's Edge" 

Cast: 
TOXIN/ PATRICK MULLIGAN 
RAZORFIST III 
MULLIGAN, JIM (Pat's ex-cop father, dies) 
MEADOWS, OFFICER PAUL (Pat's old partner) 
MULLIGAN, GINA (Pat's wife) 
MULLIGAN, EDWARD (Pat's infant son) 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 

Other characters: 
Razorfist's child minions (which include the "Piranha Tots", school-uniformed psycho elementary schoolers) 
Samantha (only one of his "kids" named) 


Summary: Razorfist kills Jim Mulligan, who puts up quite a fight. Toxin walks in at the last minute, and fights him off. But it's too late for Pat's father, who dies from his injuries. At the funeral, Pat tries to view the ceremony from afar, and is spotted by his wife, Gina, who confronts him and spits in his face, which he feels he deserves for running off on her. That night, Razorfist films a video to scare the public, with one of his minions, named Samantha, directing. The ransom for the "Slasherday fund" is only 35.10, this angers RF even further. At the hospital, Pat visits his old partner, Paul Meadows, who was found carved up and left in a garbage can. Paul reveals he told Razorfist where he lived, unaware that Jim died because of it. Soon, the Toxin symbiote is full of ideas on getting revenge on Razorfist, but Pat fights back those urges, wanting only to arrest the criminal, despite what's happened in the past. Pat soon meets with Spider-Man, explaining what happened. Spidey would have done the same as him, tried to save his father instead of chasing Razorfist. Pat hopes Spidey will bring Toxin in if he crosses the line and becomes a bad guy himself. Down in Razorfist's lair, Samantha shows him the Slasherday video, believing it'll scare enough people without the kids not having to actually kill anyone. The former abused child and film student's desire not to hurt any innocent people nearly gets her killed, when Toxin shows up and takes on his enemy one more time. They battle, and Razorfist is disarmed of his razor fists, while Spider-Man watches from the shadows. Razorfist wants to be killed, and tries to provoke Pat by claiming his father begged, but he knows his dad better and simply knocks him out, which Spidey gives a thumbs up to. The next day, Razorfist is back in Ryker's, forced to once again wear the prosthetic arms he shunned long ago. Pat meets with Spidey concerning the aftermath of the situation, most of RFD's minion children have been rounded up and returned to their families or wherever, but a few of the Piranha Tots have slipped back into society with murderous intent. Pat finally has Toxin under control, for now, and being told by Spidey that facing Razorfist showed he has guts, he decides to meet his wife at a restaurant. There, he finally tells Gina, by showing her, the reason why he left her months ago. She promises not to scream, but upon seeing Toxin, she still does. Suddenly, Nick Fury's Howling Commandos show up, and... oh, wait, that's a preview. Sorry. 

Continuity notes: Is it always standard for supervillains at Ryker's to be put in general population in orange jumpsuits with the rest of the criminals? Man, I miss the Vault... 

Goof: Toxin slams into Razorfist, they fall from the third floor of a building, onto a parked car, and Razor, despite being on the bottom of all of this, gets up and runs away a panel later without a scratch on him. If that weren't enough, the smashed car vanishes between panels. 

Calendar notes: Full moon at night on day "33", leaves are falling that day (but trees are all green and lush, just DIE already!) 

Timeframe: 
Day Thirty Two continued (Pages 1-3, Razorfist kills Jim Mulligan, Toxin fights him off but he gets away) 
Day Thirty Three (Pages 4-19, Okay, so it's probably more like a few days after 32. I'll leave the exact details to those whom it's important. It's Jim's funeral that day, and at night, Razorfist films Slasherday video. Pat visits Paul in hospital. Pat meets Spidey on rooftop. Toxin takes down Razorfist) 
Day Thirty Four (Pages 20-22, Razorfist is back in prison, Piranha Tots re-assimilated into society; Pat meets Spidey one last time, reveals ID to Gina) 
------------------------------------ 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
[Some time after "Breakout"] 
**TOX1 
[Room for some adventures here] 
**TOX5 
**TOX6 

RAZORFIST III 
[New Avengers stuff] 
**TOX1 
**TOX2 
**TOX3 
**TOX5 
**TOX6 

COBRA/KLAUS VORHEES 
[New Avengers stuff] 
**TOX1 

MISTER HYDE/CALVIN ZABO 
[New Avengers stuff?] 
**TOX1 

ANSWER 
[New Avengers stuff] 
**TOX3 

OWL/LELAND OWLSLEY 
**TOX3-BTS 

WRECKER III/DIRK GARTHWAITE 
[New Avengers stuff?] 
**TOX4 

PILEDRIVER II/BRIAN PHILIP CALUSKY 
[New Avengers stuff?] 
**TOX4 

TOXIN/PATRICK MULLIGAN 
... 
VVC4 
**TOX1 
**TOX2 
**TOX3 
**TOX4 
**TOX5 
**TOX6 

MULLIGAN, GINA 
... 
VVC4 
**TOX1 
**TOX2-BTS 
**TOX3 
**TOX4-FB 
**TOX5 
**TOX6 

MULLIGAN, EDWARD 
... 
VVC4 
**TOX1 
**TOX3 
**TOX4-FB 
**TOX5 
**TOX6 

MULLIGAN, JIM 
**VVC3 
**TOX2 
**TOX3 
**TOX4 
**TOX5 
**TOX6 

MEADOWS, OFFICER PAUL 
**VVC2 
**TOX1 
**TOX2 
**TOX4 
**TOX5 
**TOX6 

JLH

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2005 02:23 pm    
By Col_Fury

Generally speaking, funerals take about three or four days to arrange and put together, especially if in Jim's case, he was cut up by Razorfist. If the wake/visitation was the night before, or the morning of the services, is probably a moot point. I think it's safe to say that the funeral is four days after "Day 32." If that's the case, pg4-pg19 would be "Day 36" & pg20-pg22 would be "Day 37." Hope that helps!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 55

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 06:46 am    Post subject: M/CP 128/3: American Eagle
By Col_Fury

M/CP 128/3: American Eagle 
"the Hunter and the Hunted" 
W: John Figueroa 
D: Ron Wilson 
Published: May 1993 

Appearances: 
American Eagle(Jason Strongbow), Jimmy Littlehawk(cousin), Jimmy's mom, some cops. 

Synopsis: 
American Eagle is after his cousin, a fugitive. After a brief fight, Jimmy is shot at by his mom, then captured by Santa Clause. The End. 

References: 
It's Christmas! And no, that's not the real Santa, just a guy collecting money... & criminals. 

American Eagle III/Jason Strongbow 
... 
M/CP 27/4 
*M/CP 128/3
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 56

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 06:57 am    Post subject: M/CP 130/3: American Eagle
By Col_Fury

M/CP 130/3: American Eagle 
"Screams" 
W: John Figueroa 
D: Ron Wilson 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: 
American Eagle(Jason Strongbow), Dale Peck, Jonas. 

Synopsis: 
American Eagle is helping FBI agent Dale Peck track the mind-controlling serial killer, Jonas. They find him, fight, & American Eagle wins.(surprise!) 

References: 
It's snowing, so it's probably not long after M/CP 128/3. 

American Eagle III/Jason Strongbow 
... 
M/CP 27/4 
*M/CP 128/3 
*M/CP 130/3
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 57

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 10:24 pm    Post subject: Gravity #1-5
By lkseitz

Gravity #1, "Big City Super Hero" 
Sean McKeever, writer; Mike Norton, penciller; Jonathan Glapion, inks. 

Characters: Black Death, Frog, Gravity, Rage, Lauren Singh, Thing, James M. Whitmore, and a villain I don't recognize (see below). 

Summary: Greg Willis arrives in New York City from Wisconsin via bus, thinking about the accident last summer that gave him his gravity powers and his high school graduation. He's come to make a name for himself as a super-hero and go to college at New York University. 

After seeing some of the city, he meets with his advisor, James M. Whitemore. Their meeting is interrupted by a fight between Rage and Black Death. Greg changes to Gravity and decks Rage, not realizing he's the good guy. Black Death holds Gravity in what looks like a variation of a dark force power, but Rage comes to and Black Death escapes, promising he'll see Gravity again. 

Greg runs some errands, eventually returning to his dorm room and meeting his roommate, "Frog." (No other name is given for him.) 

That evening, under a fool moon, Gravity goes on patrol. Although he helps a few people, it doesn't go well. He also comes across the Thing battling a white male with green hair and two white horns growing out of his head wearing green pants and a white tank top. (Anybody know who he is?) The Thing, who's wearing only blue pants, tells Gravity to buzz off. 

Ready to give up for the night, an elderly woman calls to Gravity. She's dropped her heart medecine under some furniture. Just as he retrieves it, she collapses. He rushes her to the hospital and ends up falling asleep in the waiting room. At 7:30 a.m., a nurse wakes him. They don't know if the woman will make it, but she'd be dead if he hadn't gotten her there. 

Gravity realizes he's late for class, so he changes and heads that way. He meets Lauren Singh, a fellow classmate, who says she'll race him to class, which cheers him up. 

Temporal notes: This issue covers roughly 24 hours, from the morning of one day to the next. Since the school year is just starting, it would appear to be late August or early September. The moon is full overnight. 


Gravity #2, "Friends and Enemies" 
Sean McKeever, writer; Mike Norton, penciller; Jonathan Glapion, inks. 

Characters: Black Death, Black Knight, Professor Edward Busha, Frog, Gravity, Rhino, Lauren Singh 

Summary: Too wordy last time. Let's try to be brief. 

Greg and Lauren's breakfast at a breakfast is interrupted by Rhino robbing an armored car. After a rought start, Gravity throws Rhino out of sight. After he's changed out of costume, Greg walks with Lauren while the Black Knight is seen riding his atomic steed in the background. 

That evening, Greg watches the news, hoping for a story on him as Gravity. He's disappointed, but does catch a story about Spider-Man and "what appears to be a talking duck." (Howard, I presume.) He then spends two hours, from 3:00-5:00 a.m. waiting for the day's paper at a newsstand. He's rewarded by a small story which reveals Rhino was later apprehended by SHIELD. 

Then the Greenwich Guardian appears on a rooftop and Gravity investigates. They talk and agree to meet at midnight. GG bounds off into what appears to be the beginnings of sunrise. Greg returns to his dorm room and briefly talks to Frog. Then has class with Lauren. 

He meets Greenwich Guardian and they patrol together. This continues for "a few nights," when the two come across a jewelry store burglary. After taking out the bad guys, Gravity hears "Guardian" yell and is then ttacked 
by Black Death. 

Temporal notes: This issues covers several days. It's unclear exactly how much time has passed between issues #1 and #2, but probably less than a week as it appears this is the first time Lauren has taken Greg to the bakery. Perhaps it has been as little as about 24 hours since the end of #1. 

The moon is still full both when Gravity first meets the "Greenwich Guardian" and a few nights later at the jewelry store robbery that ends the issue. However, according to the "Previously..." page at the beginning of #4, Gravity and the "Greenwich Guardian" teamed up for "a few weeks" before Black Death attacks him. 


Gravity #3, "What Goes Up" 
Sean McKeever, writer; Mike Norton, penciller; Jonathan Glapion, inks. 

Characters: Black Death, Frog, Gravity, Jack O'Lantern, Lauren Singh, Spider-Man. 

Summary: Picking up immediately from where we left off in #2, Black Death gives Gravity a beating, but Gravity escapes through a vent. The next day, we see him and Lauren at the library. He covers his extensive bruises with a story of being mugged. 

That evening, in their dorm room, Frog tells Greg the cops have video of Black Death beating Gravity. One night, Greg goes out in costume, presumably to meet Greenwich Guardian. He ends up standing on a rooftop till sunrise. 

Several days pass. Greg skips classes and doesn't speak much to people. Finally Lauren comes to his dorm room and makes him go with her to a boat parade on the East River. 

An evening sometime later, Lauren has Greg come to her place. He meets her parents off-panel. In her room, just as they're about to kiss, a commotion is heard outside. Spider-Man is fighting Jack O'Lantern. Although at first he wants to go meet one of his favorite heroes, Greg decides to stay with Lauren instead. 

Temporal notes: We start immediately after #1, then get two scenes from the day after. When Gravity gets up to go meet the Guardian, the bandage that was on his forehead earlier is gone, although there's still a wound there. When Lauren takes him out, his bruises have faded, but haven't gone away completely yet. While they're out, she orders two brats, to which Greg comments, "I haven't had one of these in months." In the final scene, his bruises appear to have completely healed. This would indicate this issues occurs over several weeks. The moon is not shown in any of the night scenes, so that's no help. 


Gravity #4, "Priorities" 
Sean McKeever, writer; Mike Norton, penciller; Jonathan Glapion, inks. 

Characters: Black Death, Frog, Gravity, Shocker, Lauren Singh, Whirlwind. 

Summary: Probably a few weeks have passed. Lauren is now Greg's girlfriend. He's on his way to a date with her when he sees the Greenwich Guardian running around calling for Gravity. Greg's going to ignore him until he says it's a matter of life and death. 

Their meeting doesn't go well at first. Guardian says he's been in the hospital for the past month. He's recently found out Black Death intends to steal a seismic pulse generator to destroy Manhattan skyscrapers. Guardian wants to steal it first to keep it away from Black Death and eventually convinces Gravity to go along with this. They steal it that night. Gravity leaves it with Guardian and realizes he's missed his date. 

Lauren is waiting outside his dorm room. Upon seeing him, she slaps him and leaves. He goes in and listens to all the messages she's left. 

Greg becomes Gravity almost full-time. He skips classes and social life. The only notable criminals shown in this montage are Shocker and Whirlwind. They're waiting for Black Death to respond to the Guardian's personal ad about the seismic pulse generator. Then midterm grades come. 

Greg meets with his English professor, Prof. Busha, to see what he can do to keep from failing. Greg starts studying hard. One night, he decides he needs a break and asks to go with Frog to a party. They go, but then Greg sees Lauren with another guy and leaves with Frog pursuing. Outside, Greenwich Guardian is calling for Gravity again. Frog reveals the Guardian was soundly defeated by the Jester on the NYU campus a couple years ago. He hadn't been seen since, until recently. 

Guardian reveals he heard from Black Death. They're meeting him at an abandoned warehouse. While talking, the Guardian puts on the device and reveals it's actually a graviton trap. He then suspends Gravity and reveals himself to actually be Black Death. 

Temporal notes: When Gravity appears to the "Guardian," Guardian asks where Gravity's been "the past couple weeks." Gravity later asks where Guardian has been for "the past month." The moon is not seen in any of the night scenes. The "Previously..." page of #5 indicates Greg goes into full-time Gravity mode for "weeks on end." Midterm grades would indicate it's mid-to-late October. I think. Man, I've been out of college too long. 


Gravity #5, "Chewed Up and Spit Out" 
Sean McKeever, writer; Mike Norton, penciller; Jonathan Glapion, inks. 

Characters: Black Death, Prof. Edward Busha, Frog, Gravity, Quasar, Lauren Smith, Spider-Man. 

Summary: We open with three pages of a flashback to Gravity's origin. He's sailing with his parents in a large body of water. He said in an earlier issue that he's from Sheboygan, so it's probably Lake Michigan. A weird spatial anomoly appears during an unexpected storm. It sucks Greg up, then disappears, leaving him floating in the water. 

Gravity comes back from his reverie still captive of Black Death, now in the middle of the NYU campus. Black Death goes on a tirade while he starts tearing up parts of the campus, using the graviton trap to harness Gravity's powers against his will. Gravity eventually reasserts control and destroys the trap. He and Black Death fight, with Gravity eventually winning. Black Death then melts away before Gravity's eyes. 

At this point, Spider-Man makes his presence known. He was going to help, but it turns out Gravity didn't need any. He's checked around and no one was hurt. He leaves saying he's got a date with a special lady, which presumably means Mary Jane. 

What's probably the next morning, we're back at the bakery from the beginning of #2. Outside, Quasar is flying by. (Is Quasar back on Earth now?) Lauren is with a guy when she spots Greg. He tells her he's going back home to re-evaluate his plans. She tells him to stay and not give up. The next page and a half are a montage of scenes that probably occur over the next day or two. Greg's berated by Prof. Busha, but is going to class again, even though he's no longer sitting with Lauren. He plays video games with Frog. He visits the woman from #1, who's still in the hospital. Finally we wrap up with some punk with heat power mugging a woman and her son. Gravity files in to the rescue. 

Temporal notes: This issues picks up probably less than an hour after the previous one. The scenes at the end appear to take place before the semester or quarter ends. The moon is not seen in any of the night scenes. 


Most of these characters probably won't ever be seen again except Gravity and Black Death. Unless there's a sequel, but given the sales, that seems unlikely (which is a shame). So here are chronologies for these two: 

BLACK DEATH II (a.k.a. GREENWICH GUARDIAN) 
GRAV 1 
GRAV 2 
GRAV 3 
GRAV 4 
GRAV 5 

GRAVITY/GREG WILLIS 
GRAV 5-FB 
GRAV 1 
GRAV 2 
GRAV 3 
GRAV 4 
GRAV 5 

I don't know what's going on with Black Knight, Jack O' Lantern, Quasar, Rage, Rhino, Shocker, Spider-Man, Thing, or Whirlwind well enough to place their appearances in any of their chronologies. 

So, did I miss anything?
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2005 05:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for this analysis, Lee. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2005 06:58 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The lovely thing about this series, for chronology purposes, is that there are massive great multi-week gaps in the middle of the story, allowing everyone's guest appearances to fit neatly wherever they may be required. It's just like old times.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Oct 2005 05:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here is a reformatted version, prior to insertion into the calendar. Lee, please review this and let me know if I have things right. 

As you can see, I really need some page/panel ranges for these scenes. And I dont think Ive broken them out enough (e.g. the Shocker and Whirlwind section). Can you provide me with these details? 

One question: did the accident that gave Greg his Gravity powers occur during the summer just before GRAV 1 or during the summer of the year before GRAV 1? 

To answer your question, Quasar has come to earth several times in other titles in recent months, and Id like to link this appearance to one of those visits. What appears to work best is for Wendell to appear in GRAV 5 during the day or two hes in New York between FF 522 and 523. Given the Halloween of FF 517, my reckoning is that this would be about November 2. That would be consistent with the mid-terms that occur in mid to late October in GRAV 4. (See, those temporal references can come in handy.  ) 

Here goes... 

GRAVITY #5  FB (1-3) 
One summer day. While Greg Willis sails with his parents, a weird spatial anomaly appears during an unexpected storm. It sucks Greg up then disappears, leaving him floating in the water. 

GRAVITY #1 (1-x) 
One day. Greg Willis arrives in New York City from Wisconsin via bus, thinking about the accident last summer that gave him his gravity powers and his high school graduation. Hes come to make a name for himself as a super-hero and to go to college at New York University. After seeing some of the city, he meets with his advisor, James M. Whitemore. Their meeting is interrupted by a fight between Rage and Black Death. Greg changes to Gravity and decks Rage, not realizing hes the good guy. Black Death holds Gravity in what looks like a variation of a dark force power, but Rage comes to and Black Death escapes, promising hell see Gravity again. Greg returns to his dorm room and meets his roommate, Frog. That evening, Gravity goes on patrol, and although he helps a few people, it doesnt go well. He also comes across the Thing battling a villain pants, tells Gravity to buzz off. Ready to give up for the night, Gravity rushes an elderly woman to the hospital and falls asleep in the waiting room. Full moon. 

GRAVITY #1 (x-xx) 
The day after GRAV 1 (1-x). At 7:30 AM, a nurse wakes Gravity and notes that the old woman would be dead if he hadnt brought her to the hospital. Late for class, Gravity heads to NYU and meets classmate Lauren Singh, who races him to class. It must be the first day of classes of the academic year. 

GRAVITY #2 (1-x) 
One day. Greg and Laurens breakfast is interrupted by Rhino robbing an armored car. After a rough start, Gravity throws Rhino out of sight. The Black Knight rides his atomic steed in the background. That evening, Greg watches the news, hoping for a story on Gravity. Hes disappointed but does catch a story about Spider-Man and what appears to be a talking duck (presumably Howard). 

GRAVITY #2 (x-xx) 
The day after GRAV 2 (1-x). From 3:00 to 5:00 AM Greg waits for the days paper at a newsstand. Hes rewarded by a small story which reveals Rhino was later apprehended by SHIELD. The Greenwich Guardian appears on a rooftop and Gravity investigates. They talk and agree to meet at midnight. The Guardian bounds off into what appears to be the beginnings of sunrise. Greg returns to his dorm room, briefly talks to Frog, and then has class with Lauren. Full moon. 

GRAVITY #2 (xx-xxx) 
The day after GRAV 2 (x-xx). Gravity meets the Greenwich Guardian and they patrol together. 

GRAVITY #2 (xxx-xxxx) 
One night, either a few nights or a few weeks (probably the latter, given the lunar phases) after GRAV 2 (xx-xxx). It is a couple weeks and a month before GRAV 4 (1-x). Gravity and the Greenwich Guardian encounter a jewelry store burglary. After taking out the bad guys, Gravity hears Guardian yell and is then attacked by Black Death. Full moon. 
GRAVITY #3 (1-x) 
The same night as GRAV 2 (xxx-xxxx). Black Death gives Gravity a beating, but Gravity escapes through a vent. 

GRAVITY #3 (x-xx) 
The day after GRAV 3 (1-x). Greg meets Lauren at the library and explains his extensive bruises with a story of being mugged. That evening in their dorm room, Frog tells Greg the cops have video of Black Death beating Gravity. 

GRAVITY #3 (xx-xxx) 
Early one morning. Greg goes out in costume, presumably to meet Greenwich Guardian. He still has a wound on his forehead, but the bandage is gone. He ends up standing on a rooftop till sunrise. 

GRAVITY #3 (xxx-xxxx) 
One day, several days after GRAV 3 (xx-xxx). Greg skips classes and doesnt speak much to people. Finally Lauren comes to his dorm room and makes him go with her to a boat parade on the East River. Gregs bruises have faded. 

GRAVITY #3 (xxxx-xxxxx) 
One evening. Lauren has Greg come to her place and meet her parents. Gregs bruises appear to have healed completely. Just as theyre about to kiss, Lauren and Greg hear the commotion outside of Spider-Man fighting Jack O'Lantern. Although at first he wants to go meet Spidey, Greg stays with Lauren instead. 

GRAVITY #4 (1-x)One day, a couple weeks and a month after GRAV 2 (xxx-xxxx). It is weeks before GRAV 4 (x-xx). On his way to a date with Lauren, who is now his girlfriend, Greg encounters the Greenwich Guardian, who has been in the hospital for the past month. Hes recently found out Black Death intends to steal a seismic pulse generator to destroy Manhattan skyscrapers. Guardian wants to steal it first to keep it away from Black Death and eventually convinces Gravity to go along with this. They steal it that night. Gravity leaves it with Guardian and realizes hes missed his date. Outside his dorm room he finds Lauren waiting. She slaps him and leaves. He goes in and listens to all the messages shes left. 

GRAVITY #4 (x-xx) 
One day. weeks after GRAV 4 (1-x). Greg has become Gravity almost full-time. He skips classes and social life. The only notable criminals shown in this montage are Shocker and Whirlwind. Theyre waiting for Black Death to respond to the Guardians personal ad about the seismic pulse generator. Then midterm grades come, making this late October. 

GRAVITY #4 (xx-xxx) 
One day. Greg meets with his English professor, Prof. Busha, to see what he can do to keep from failing. Greg starts studying hard. 

GRAVITY #4 (xxx-xxxx) 
One night. Greg goes with Frog to a party, where Greg sees Lauren with another guy and leaves. Outside, the Greenwich Guardian calls for Gravity again. Frog reveals the Guardian was soundly defeated by the Jester on the NYU campus a couple years ago. He hadnt been seen since, until recently. Guardian reveals he heard from Black Death. Theyre meeting him at an abandoned warehouse. While talking, the Guardian puts on the device and reveals its actually a graviton trap. He suspends Gravity and reveals himself to be Black Death. 
GRAVITY #5 (1-x) 
The same night as GRAV 4 (xxx-xxxx). Gravity awakens from a reverie still captive of Black Death and now in the middle of the NYU campus. Black Death goes on a tirade while he starts tearing up parts of the campus, using the graviton trap to harness Gravitys powers against his will. Gravity eventually reasserts control and destroys the trap. He and Black Death fight and Gravity wins. Black Death then melts away before Gravitys eyes. After seeing that Gravity needed no help, Spider-Man makes his presence known, then he leaves for a date, presumably with M.J. 

GRAVITY #5 (x-xx) 
Probably the morning after GRAV 5 (1-x). As Quasar flies by, Lauren is with a guy at the bakery when she spots Greg. He tells her hes going back home to re-evaluate his plans. She tells him to stay and not give up. 

GRAVITY #5 (xx-xxx) 
One day. Greg is berated by Prof. Busha, but is going to class again, even though hes no longer sitting with Lauren. 

GRAVITY #5 (xxx-xxxx) 
One day. Greg plays video games with Frog. 

GRAVITY #5 (xxxx-xxxxx) 
One day. Greg visits the still-hospitalized woman he saved in GRAV 1. 

GRAVITY #5 (xxxxx-xxxxxx) 
One day. Gravity rescues a woman and her son from a mugger with heat power.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Oct 2005 08:39 pm    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
One question: did the accident that gave Greg his Gravity powers occur during the summer just before GRAV 1 or during the summer of the year before GRAV 1?  
<<<

I believe it was the summer immediately before the series starts.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Oct 2005 08:48 pm    
By lkseitz

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Here is a reformatted version, prior to insertion into the calendar. Lee, please review this and let me know if I have things right. 

As you can see, I really need some page/panel ranges for these scenes. 
<<<

Okay, but first you have to answer my question. GRAVITY #2-5 all start with a text page telling what's happened in previous issues. The only art on these pages is an extract from the cover of #1. Does that count as page 1 or do I start counting with the first page of traditionally illustrated story? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And I dont think Ive broken them out enough (e.g. the Shocker and Whirlwind section). Can you provide me with these details? 
<<<

That's going to be tricky, because they appear in a two-page spread montage with no clearly defined panels. I can number the scenes, but it would be somewhat arbitrary. (Meaning someone else might choose to do them in a slightly different order.) 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
One question: did the accident that gave Greg his Gravity powers occur during the summer just before GRAV 1 or during the summer of the year before GRAV 1? 
<<<

It looks like it should be the summer of the year before GRAV 1. He thinks "last year, on a perfect summer afternoon." 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
GRAVITY #1 (1-x) 
[snip] 
He also comes across the Thing battling a villain pants, tells Gravity to buzz off. 
<<<

The Thing's battling a villain's pants?  


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Black Death holds Gravity in what looks like a variation of a dark force power, 
<<<

I later found one of the "Previously..." text pages referred to it as "strange, dark energy." My darkforce comment is purely my own hypothesis and should probably be left out at this time. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
GRAVITY #3 (xxx-xxxx) 
One day, several days after GRAV 3 (xx-xxx). Greg skips classes and doesnt speak much to people. Finally Lauren comes to his dorm room and makes him go with her to a boat parade on the East River. Gregs bruises have faded. 
<<<

That should be "Greg has been skipping classes and not speaking to people for some time." 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
GRAVITY #4 (1-x) 
One day, a couple weeks and a month after GRAV 2 (xxx-xxxx). It is weeks before GRAV 4 (x-xx). On his way to a date with Lauren, 
<<<

I should have mentioned that the date was for a midnight movie, so the actual theft and encounter with Lauren probably occur in the very early hours of the next day. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
GRAVITY #4 (x-xx) 
One day. weeks after GRAV 4 (1-x). Greg has become Gravity almost full-time. He skips classes and social life. The only notable criminals shown in this montage are Shocker and Whirlwind. Theyre waiting for Black Death to respond to the Guardians personal ad about the seismic pulse generator. Then midterm grades come, making this late October. 
<<<

"They're waiting" should probably be qualified as "Gravity and the Greenwich Guardian." Also, it occurred to me that I was thinking mainly with a quarter system, because that's what my university had. Could a semester system push this as far as mid-November?
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Oct 2005 09:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Okay, but first you have to answer my question. GRAVITY #2-5 all start with a text page telling what's happened in previous issues. The only art on these pages is an extract from the cover of #1. Does that count as page 1 or do I start counting with the first page of traditionally illustrated story?  
<<<

Recap pages are not counted as story pages. Call the next page page 1. 


Quote: 
>>>
That's going to be tricky, because they appear in a two-page spread montage with no clearly defined panels. I can number the scenes, but it would be somewhat arbitrary. (Meaning someone else might choose to do them in a slightly different order.)  
<<<

My convention is to note a two-page spread as "x/x+1" (e.g. "4/5"), then note each panel or distinct scene on the spead sequentially, the way you read it (e.g. 4/5:3 -- the third panel in the spread on pages 4-5). You're the reviewer, so you get to number each scene! (Oh, the power, I know...  ) 


Quote: 
>>>
It looks like it should be the summer of the year before GRAV 1. He thinks "last year, on a perfect summer afternoon."  
<<<

Thanks. That clears that up, and supports what I assumed from your narration that his senior year of high school came after he received his power. 


Quote: 
>>>
The Thing's battling a villain's pants? 
<<<

You know that wacky Ben Grimm...  


Quote: 
>>>
I later found one of the "Previously..." text pages referred to it as "strange, dark energy." My darkforce comment is purely my own hypothesis and should probably be left out at this time.  
<<<

So noted. I'll use the narrative reference. 


Quote: 
>>>
I should have mentioned that the date was for a midnight movie, so the actual theft and encounter with Lauren probably occur in the very early hours of the next day.  
<<<

If you could reflect this in your notes about page/panel ranges, that would be great. 


Quote: 
>>>
"They're waiting" should probably be qualified as "Gravity and the Greenwich Guardian."  
<<<

This may be reworded anyway since you might be subdividing this in your page/panel list. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, it occurred to me that I was thinking mainly with a quarter system, because that's what my university had. Could a semester system push this as far as mid-November? 
<<<

I was thinking of midterms as halfway through a semester and so I'm inclined to go with late October, with the semester going from late August to late December.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2005 09:04 pm    
By lkseitz

Paul, here ya go. 

GRAVITY #1 (1-20) 
One day. Greg Willis arrives in New York City from Wisconsin via bus, thinking about the accident last summer that gave him his gravity powers and his high school graduation. Hes come to make a name for himself as a super-hero and to go to college at New York University. After seeing some of the city, he meets with his advisor, James M. Whitemore. Their meeting is interrupted by a fight between Rage and Black Death. Greg changes to Gravity and decks Rage, not realizing hes the good guy. Black Death holds Gravity in strange, dark energy, but Rage comes to and Black Death escapes, promising hell see Gravity again. Greg returns to his dorm room and meets his roommate, Frog. That evening, Gravity goes on patrol, and although he helps a few people, it doesnt go well. He also comes across the Thing battling a villain pants, tells Gravity to buzz off. Ready to give up for the night, Gravity rushes an elderly woman to the hospital and falls asleep in the waiting room. Full moon. 

GRAVITY #1 (21-22) 
The day after GRAV 1 (1-20). At 7:30 AM, a nurse wakes Gravity and notes that the old woman would be dead if he hadnt brought her to the hospital. Late for class, Gravity heads to NYU and meets classmate Lauren Singh, who races him to class. It must be the first day of classes of the academic year. 

GRAVITY #2 (1-10pn3) 
One day. Greg and Laurens breakfast is interrupted by Rhino robbing an armored car. After a rough start, Gravity throws Rhino out of sight. The Black Knight rides his atomic steed in the background. That evening, Greg watches the news, hoping for a story on Gravity. Hes disappointed but does catch a story about Spider-Man and what appears to be a talking duck (presumably Howard). 

GRAVITY #2 (10pn4-16) 
The day after GRAV 2 (1-10pn3). From 3:00 to 5:00 AM Greg waits for the days paper at a newsstand. Hes rewarded by a small story which reveals Rhino was later apprehended by SHIELD. The Greenwich Guardian appears on a rooftop and Gravity investigates. They talk and agree to meet at midnight. The Guardian bounds off into what appears to be the beginnings of sunrise. Greg returns to his dorm room, briefly talks to Frog, and then has class with Lauren. Full moon. 

GRAVITY #2 (17-18) 
The day after GRAV 2 (10pn4-16). Gravity meets the Greenwich Guardian and they patrol together. 

*GRAV 2 (19pn1) 
Sometime between GRAV 2 (17-18) and GRAV 2 (19pn3-23), Gravity and the Greenwich Guardian take out a gang dressed in skeleton costumes. 

*GRAV 2 (19pn2) 
Sometime between GRAV 2 (17-18) and GRAV 2 (19pn3-23), Gravity and the Greenwich Guardian save people from a burning building. 

GRAVITY #2 (19pn3-23) 
One night, either a few nights or a few weeks (probably the latter, given the lunar phases) after GRAV 2 (17-18). It is a couple weeks and a month before GRAV 4 (1-7). Gravity and the Greenwich Guardian encounter a jewelry store burglary. After taking out the bad guys, Gravity hears Guardian yell and is then attacked by Black Death. Full moon. 

GRAVITY #3 (1-8) 
The same night as GRAV 2 (19pn3-23). Black Death gives Gravity a beating, but Gravity escapes through a vent. 

GRAVITY #3 (9-11) 
The day after GRAV 3 (1-8). Greg meets Lauren at the library and explains his extensive bruises with a story of being mugged. That evening in their dorm room, Frog tells Greg the cops have video of Black Death beating Gravity. 

GRAVITY #3 (12-13pn2) 
Early one morning. Greg goes out in costume, presumably to meet Greenwich Guardian. He still has a wound on his forehead, but the bandage is gone. He ends up standing on a rooftop till sunrise. 

GRAVITY #3 (13pn3-17) 
One day, several days after GRAV 3 (12-13pn2). Greg skips classes and doesnt speak much to people. This has been going on for a while. Lauren comes to his dorm room and makes him go with her to a boat parade on the East River. Gregs bruises have faded. 

GRAVITY #3 (18-22) 
One evening. Lauren has Greg come to her place and meet her parents. Gregs bruises appear to have healed completely. Just as theyre about to kiss, Lauren and Greg hear the commotion outside of Spider-Man fighting Jack O'Lantern. Although at first he wants to go meet Spidey, Greg stays with Lauren instead. 

GRAVITY #4 (1-7) 
One day, a couple weeks and a month after GRAV 2 (19pn3-23). It is weeks before GRAV 4 (12/13). On his way to a midnight movie date with Lauren, who is now his girlfriend, Greg encounters the Greenwich Guardian, who has been in the hospital for the past month. Hes recently found out Black Death intends to steal a seismic pulse generator to destroy Manhattan skyscrapers. Guardian wants to steal it first to keep it away from Black Death and eventually convinces Gravity to go along with this. 

*GRAVITY #4 (8-11) 
Just after midnight, the day after GRAV 4 (1-7), Gravity and the Greenwich Guardian steal a top secret device from INITECH. Gravity leaves it with Guardian and realizes hes missed his date. Outside his dorm room he finds Lauren waiting. She slaps him and leaves. He goes in and listens to all the messages shes left. 

GRAVITY #4 (12-13) 
Greg has become Gravity almost full-time. He skips classes and social life. The only notable criminals shown in this montage are Shocker and Whirlwind. Gravity and Greenwich Guardian are waiting for Black Death to respond to the Guardians personal ad about the seismic pulse generator. Then midterm grades come, making this late October. 

*GRAVITY #4 (12/13:1) 
Gravity holding a man off the ground, about to punch him. 

*GRAV 4 (12/13:2) 
Gravity confronts a group of three thieves. 

*GRAV 4 (12/13:3) 
Gravity about to fight a bunch of thugs. 

*GRAV 4 (12/13:4) 
Gravity takes out the Shocker. 

*GRAV 4 (12/13:5) 
Gravity holds a thug he just took out as the Greenwich Guradian looks on. 

*GRAV 4 (12/13:6) 
Gravity chases a robber. 

*GRAV 4 (12/13:7) 
Gravity takes out Whirlwind. 

*GRAV 4 (12/13:8) 
A close-up of Gravity's head. 

*GRAV 4 (13pn2) [This is an actual panel "on top" of the two page montage.] 
Greg Willis finds an envelope with his mid-term grades has been pushed under his dorm door. 

GRAVITY #4 (14-15) 
One day. Greg meets with his English professor, Prof. Busha, to see what he can do to keep from failing. Greg starts studying hard. 

GRAVITY #4 (16-23) 
One night. Greg goes with Frog to a party, where Greg sees Lauren with another guy and leaves. Outside, the Greenwich Guardian calls for Gravity again. Frog reveals the Guardian was soundly defeated by the Jester on the NYU campus a couple years ago. He hadnt been seen since, until recently. Guardian reveals he heard from Black Death. Theyre meeting him at an abandoned warehouse. While talking, the Guardian puts on the device and reveals its actually a graviton trap. He suspends Gravity and reveals himself to be Black Death. 

GRAVITY #5 (4-19) 
The same night as GRAV 4 (16-23). Gravity awakens from a reverie still captive of Black Death and now in the middle of the NYU campus. Black Death goes on a tirade while he starts tearing up parts of the campus, using the graviton trap to harness Gravitys powers against his will. Gravity eventually reasserts control and destroys the trap. He and Black Death fight and Gravity wins. Black Death then melts away before Gravitys eyes. After seeing that Gravity needed no help, Spider-Man makes his presence known, then he leaves for a date, presumably with M.J. 

GRAVITY #5 (20-21) 
Probably the morning after GRAV 5 (1-x). As Quasar flies by, Lauren is with a guy at the bakery when she spots Greg. He tells her hes going back home to re-evaluate his plans. She tells him to stay and not give up. 

GRAVITY #5 (22pn1-2) 
One day. Greg is berated by Prof. Busha, but is going to class again, even though hes no longer sitting with Lauren. 

*GRAV 5 (22pn3) 
One day. Greg walks by some of the damage on the NYU campus from his fight with Black Death in GRAV 5 (4-19). 

GRAVITY #5 (22pn4) 
One day. Greg plays video games with Frog. 

GRAVITY #5 (22pn5) 
One day. Greg visits the still-hospitalized woman he saved in GRAV 1. 

*GRAV 5 (23pn1-3) 
One day. Greg does a computer search for "male freshman wisconsin." His name is amoung the 23 records that match. 
[I don't understand the point of this scene.] 

GRAVITY #5 (23pn4-24) 
One day. Gravity rescues a woman and her son from a mugger with heat powers.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 08:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Much appreciated, Lee. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 58

Posted: 21 Oct 2005 02:26 am    Post subject: M/CP 129/3: Crossbones
By Col_Fury

M/CP 129/3: Crossbones 
"A Time to Die" 
W: John Figueroa 
D: RonWilson 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: Crossbones(Brock "Bing" Rumlow) 

Synopsis: 
Imprisoned at the Vault, Crossbones is going to his regularly scheduled therapy session, which is not in the Vault, but at the local hospital. Also, Crossbones is in full costume, & handcuffed.(this makes absolutely no sense. It's silly. They let prisoners keep their costumes on? Where's the prison's therapy center? Why let prisoners out at all? wtf...) The hospital is taken over by terrorists, so Crossbones disarms them, then lets them go, to get on his therapist's good side, in hopes that she'll let him out early for good behavior, instead of just escaping.(again, wtf?) 

References: 
All in one day. 

Crossbones has been at the Vault for at least six months at this point. 

Currently, we have this for Crossbones: 

... 
CA 410 
SLEEP 20 
CA 443 
... 

In CA 410, Captain America is sending Crossbones off to the Vault at the end of the issue. In CA 443, Crossbones is just in a prison, not the Vault. I don't have Sleepwalker 20, so I don't know what Crossbones is doing in that issue. Does it show him escaping the Vault, or is he just out-and-about? Depending on SLEEP 20, we have two possibilities: 

Crossbones/Brock "Bing" Rumlow 
... 
CA 410 
*M/CP 129/3 
SLEEP 20 
... 

or 

Crossbones/Brock "Bing" Rumlow 
... 
SLEEP 20 
*M/CP 129/3 
CA 443 
... 

If anyone has Sleepwalker 20, what's the story? Thanks in advance.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 59

Posted: 21 Oct 2005 04:01 am    Post subject: M/CP 127/3: Speedball
By Col_Fury

M/CP 127/3: Speedball 
"the Big Time" 
W: Danny Fingeroth 
D: Don Perlin 
Published: May 1993 

Appearances: 
Speedball(Robbie Baldwin), Dr. Octopus. 

Synopsis: 
In Chicago, visiting Robbie Baldwin accidentally runs into Otto Octavius coming out of a resteraunt. The collision triggers Robbie's Speedball powers, & they fight. Dr. Octopus hands Speedball his @$$. 

References: 
All in one night, no longer than 20 minutes. 

A freindly editor's note informs us that this takes place before New Warriors #1. 

Placement suggestions: 

Speedball/Robbie Baldwin 
... 
M/CP 56/4 
*M/CP 127/3 
NW 1 
... 

Doctor Octopus/Otto Octavius 
... 
SOLOA 17 
*M/CP 127/3 
ASM 334 
...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 60

Posted: 21 Oct 2005 08:39 am    Post subject: M/CP 123-130: Wolverine
By Col_Fury

M/CP 123: Wolverine 
Passion Play pt 1 
Clean Slate 
W: Scott Lobdell 
D: Dennis Jensen 
Published: March 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lynx, Courier(Hans Middlesteadt). 

Synopsis: 
Wolverine pulls a scientist out of a burning building. He mentions an experiment, then dies. Wolverine runs off to find the experiment, & finds a savage young woman. They fight, then he feeds her to calm her down. Then, hes blasted by the Courier. 

References: 
Happens in one night. 

M/CP 124: Wolverine 
Passion Play pt 2 
Heat Lightning 
W: Scott Lobdell 
D: Dennis Jensen 
Published: March 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lynx, Courier(Hans Middlesteadt), Le Peregrine(Franck Racine). 

Synopsis: 
Lynx attacks Courier, who subdues her. He drives away, then stops at a tree blocking the road. Wolverine attacks! After a brief fight, they discover the girl is missing. 
Lynx has been taken by Le Peregrine! 

References: 
One night, same as last issue. 

Courier has been working for the German government for fifty years next week. 

People are after Lynx because of the Panacea Drug in her, which apparently can cure all diseases. 

M/CP 125: Wolverine 
Passion Play pt 3 
On a Wing and a Prayer 
W: Scott Lobdell 
D: Dennis Jensen 
Published: April 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lynx, Courier(Hans Middlesteadt), Le Peregrine(Franck Racine), Black Widow(Natasha Romanova), Imus Champion, the Flesh Tones. 

Synopsis: 
Le Peregrine has brought Lynx to Imus Champion, who wants to be cured of the disease ravaging his body. While showering, Wolverine & Courier surprise Le Peregrine. While questioning him, theyre attacked by the Flesh Tones(3 guys in one, he/they can control their very molecules! Just not very well), then theyre saved by the Black Widow, whos here on SHIELD business. 

References: 
All in one night, same night as last issue. 

M/CP 126: Wolverine 
Passion Play pt 4 
Widows Sting 
W: Scott Lobdell 
D: Dennis Jensen 
Published: April 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lynx, Courier(Hans Middlesteadt), Le Peregrine(Franck Racine), Black Widow(Natasha Romanova), Imus Champion, the Flesh Tones. 

Synopsis: 
Black Widow fights Wolverine, Courier, & Le Peregrine, subdues them all. Meanwhile, Champion is still trying to get the Panacea Drug out of Lynx. Wolverine, Courier, & Le Peregrine show up wearing the Flesh Tones.(Theyre inside the Flesh Tones unconscious bodies) Black Widow arrives, they free Lynx, decide to team up, & destroy Champions lab. But what to do with Lynx? 

References: 
Black Widow is the leader of the Avengers. 

An editors note refers us to Avengers 109, Imus Champions last appearance. 

One night, same as last issue. 

M/CP 127: Wolverine 
Passion Play pt 5 
Brooklyn Bridge 
W: Scott Lobdell 
D: Dennis Jensen 
Published: May 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lynx, Courier(Hans Middlesteadt), Le Peregrine(Franck Racine), Black Widow(Natasha Romanova), Col. Nick Fury. 

Synopsis: 
On the Helicarrier, Fury gives the group a history lesson on Lynx. Fury informs Wolverine, Courier, & Le Peregrine theyre no longer needed, so Wolverine takes Lynx & flies off in a Quinjet.(presumed ably Black Widows) 

References: 
One night, same as last issue. 

Fury mentions(in thought) Mariko Yashidas & Silver Foxs deaths. Therefore, this must take place at least after Wolverine 57 & 65. 

M/CP 128: Wolverine 
Passion Play pt 6 
Hearts O Fire 
W: Scott Lobdell 
D: Dennis Jensen 
Published: May 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lynx, Courier(Hans Middlesteadt), Le Peregrine(Franck Racine), Black Widow(Natasha Romanova), Imus Champion. 

Synopsis: 
Courier discovers that Imus Champion still lives, teams up with Le Peregrine. 
Wolverine has taken Lynx to a SHIELD safehouse in Maine. Shes been given a false personality by SHIELD, but through the day reverts back to her savage self. Black Widow shows up, says that SHIELD has discovered whos responsible for Lynxs predicament. 

References: 
Wolverine has a FlashBack to when he was found by the Hudsons, but its a redrawn panel with no new information. 

The next day after last issues night. 

M/CP 129: Wolverine 
Passion Play pt 7 
Thats What They Say 
W: Scott Lobdell 
D: Dennis Jensen 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lynx, Courier(Hans Middlesteadt), Le Peregrine(Franck Racine), Black Widow(Natasha Romanova), Imus Champion. 

Synopsis: 
A group called They are behind the Panacea Drug. Theyve also created an antidote that liquefies humans, called Malaigent. Wolverine, Black Widow, & Lynx show up at their hidden Antarctic base, as does Imus Champion, Courier, & Le Peregrine. Of course, everyone fights. They try to escape through their teleporter, but Wolverine destroys the control mechanisms which kills them. During the skirmish, Lynx got a hold of Malaigent. 

References: 
One night, same night as last issue. 

M/CP 130: Wolverine 
Passion Play pt 8 
Missing Lynx 
W: Scott Lobdell 
D: Dennis Jensen 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lynx, Courier(Hans Middlesteadt), Le Peregrine(Franck Racine), Black Widow(Natasha Romanova), Col. Nick Fury, Imus Champion. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1: Fury ties up the loose plot threads for Black Widow over drinks. 
Pg1pn2-FB: Courier in his home. 
Pg2pn1: Fury & Black Widow drinking. 
Pg2pn2-pg2pn4-FB: Courier is informed that he no longer works for the German government, & that his wife is somewhere safe. 
Pg3pn1-pg3pn3-FB: Le Peregrines proposal for a new novel is rejected by a publishing house owned by Imus Champion. 
Pg3pn4: Fury & Black Widow, still drinking. 
Pg4pn1: Fury & Widow, drinking some more. 
Pg4pn2-pg4pn4-FB: Courier & Le Peregrine team up to find Couriers wife. 
Pg5: Fury & Black Widow getting cozy. 
Pg6-pg8: Wolverine has given Lynx Fangs suit.(remember Fang from UX 107-109? I guess Wolverine likes giving out this suit, X-23 is wearing it now in UX) Now clothed, he sets her free in the wilds of Canada. Poor Lynx, she thinks Wolverine will come back for her & be her mate to bad we never see her again. 

References: 
Courier returns home the day after last issue, Le Peregrine proposes his novel the day after that, they team up that night. Fury & Black Widow drink themselves silly the following day, & Wolverine gives Lynx some clothes the day after that. 

All in all, 6 days. 

For Wolverine, this story happens at least after W2 65, & some time before W2 75. For everyone else, that means after Infinity Crusade wraps up, & before the Bloodlines & Fatal Attractions crossovers. With that in mind, heres some placement suggestions: 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
 
X 21 
*M/CP 123 
*M/CP 124 
*M/CP 125 
*M/CP 126 
*M/CP 127 
*M/CP 128 
*M/CP 129 
*M/CP 130 
W2 69 
 

Fury, Col. Nicholas Nick Joseph 
 
STARBLAST 1 
*M/CP 127 
*M/CP 130 
XFOR 20 
 

Black Widow/Natasha Romanova 
 
A 366 
*M/CP 125 
*M/CP 126 
*M/CP 127 
*M/CP 128 
*M/CP 129 
*M/CP 130 
SLEEP 26 
 

Le Peregrine/Franck Racine 
 
AF 108 
*M/CP 124 
*M/CP 125 
*M/CP 126 
*M/CP 127 
*M/CP 128 
*M/CP 129 
*M/CP 130-FB Pg3pn1-pg3pn3 
*M/CP 130-FB Pg4pn2-pg4pn4 
TB 57 
 

Champion, Imus 
A 109 
M/CP 125 
*M/CP 126 
*M/CP 128 
*M/CP 129 
*M/CP 130-FB Pg3pn1-pg3pn3 
A3 5 
 

The Flesh Tones 
M/CP 125 
M/CP 126 

Courier/Hans Middlesteadt 
M/CP 123 
M/CP 124 
M/CP 125 
M/CP 126 
M/CP 127 
M/CP 128 
M/CP 129 
M/CP 130-FB Pg1pn2 
M/CP 130-FB Pg2pn2-pg2pn4 
M/CP 130-FB Pg4pn2-pg4pn4 

Lynx 
M/CP 127-FB 
{M/CP 123} 
M/CP 124 
M/CP 125 
M/CP 126 
M/CP 127 
M/CP 128 
M/CP 129 
M/CP 130 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 61

Posted: 25 Oct 2005 09:07 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Punisher MAX #19-24:
By Kevin W.
Director

Chronology Review for Punisher #19-24 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez 

Here's my latest review, (sorry for the delay, life's been busy lately). This storyline is a sequel to Punisher MAX #1-6, and also involves plot elements from Punisher MAX #13-18. It might be good to review those analysis' before reading over this one. 

Punisher #19 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez 

Appearances: Punisher, Nicky Cavella, OBrien, Rawlins, New Characters: Teresa Gazzera, Horace Spoonie Moore, Big Joe McCluskey, Tony Pizzo, Joey Picardi, Fat Mikeand just for the sake of completeness, I suppose we do technically have appearances by the Castle family, (Maria Elizabeth Castle, Lisa Castle, and Frank David Castle). 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-3: Our story starts out with Nicky Cavella, (the mobster bad guy from Punisher MAX #1-6) paying a visit to the Castle family grave, late at night. With him is his loyal follower Teresa Gazzera, (sister of Pittsy Gazzera, another mobster from issues #1-6). They start digging up the graves of Franks family 

Pgs. 4-22: The next day: We have a few different scenes going on: 

We see OBrien, (the female ex-CIA recruit from issues #1-6), in prison taking a shower. She is attacked by some female prisoners who want to rape her, but she beats them up easily. 

We then cut to Rawlins, (the CIA operative whom we first saw in issues #13-18. Hes the guy who infiltrated the terrorist network in Saudi Arabia and who ordered the terrorists to hijack the plane that was on the way to Moscow). Now Rawlins is back in the USA, and hes meeting up with the American generals who were angry at Nick Fury in the last story arc. The generals say they have one last mission for Rawlins before they will let him retire, (and it involves getting rid of the Punisher, whom the generals are still mad at because of events from the last story arc). 

Meanwhile, we cut to Frank, who is going about his usual routine of killing criminals. He just got done killing a group of Neo Nazi bikers in a biker bar, (led by Big Joe McCluskey), and now hes killing a group of black thugs (led by Horace Spoonie Moore), who were coming to wage war on the bikers. He kills all of them and calls it a day. 

We then cut to see Nicky Cavella, who is hosting a dinner with the other Italian mobsters, (they are supposedly whats left of the New York Mafia). Nicky says he can help them regain the power they all once had, but they need to make him the new boss. He also says that the first thing they need to do is to get rid of the Punisher, otherwise hell continue to tear down their criminal organization. The other mobsters need time to think about it, so Nicky tells them to go home and watch the 6 oclock news tonight 

Later on, that evening in prison, OBrien is framed by the other prisoners for the killing of a prison guard. OBrien realizes she has to flee the prison. 

Later on, when the 6 oclock news is broadcasting in a local bar, everyone stops and watches as the news reporter explains the T.V. station has been sent video footage of the Castle family grave. The footage starts rolling, and we see Franks family, (their skeletons, to be precise) lying on the ground next to the hole in their grave. We then see footage of Nicky Cavella urinating on their corpses. Frank is there in a corner of the bar, (having stopped in there for a bite to eat), and hes suddenly not very happy 

References: Pg. 11: Frank narrates the following: Did a lot of damage last year. The mob, at old man Cesares birthday party. Then the Westies. Then Leon Rastovichs Russians. Now and again, some #$%^ pops up and tries to fill the vacuum. Those are references to all of the storylines from the first 18 issues of Punisher MAX. That would seem to indicate that the first 18 issues happened last year. 

Pg. 14: Nicky Cavella says, Its been a year. (since he last saw the other NYC Italian mobsters). 

Pg. 15: Nicky Cavella says, One year ago, the Punisher took out over forty of our people. Crippled everything we got onna east coast in a single nights work. So the events of Punisher MAX #1 happened one year ago. 

Pg. 20: The news reporter says, Castle, whose wife Maria and two children Lisa and Frank Junior were killed in the crossfire of a mob shoot-out in 1976, has waged a one-man war on crime for almost thirty years. 

So once again, we have a reference to it being the late 70s when Franks family killed, (no sliding timeline and staying young for you, Frank)! 

Also, in the graveyard scenes, the trees are bare and the leaves are floating on the wind. Which I suppose would indicate its autumn or possibly winter, but it is a graveyard, and graveyards are usually drawn as if its autumn or winter. 

If you want to count video footage as a flashback, then the footage runs on the T.V. screen from pg 20, (panels 4 and 5, out of 5) to pg. 21, (panels 1-3, out of 5). 

Punisher #20 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez 

Appearances: Nicky Cavella, Teresa Gazzera, New characters: Tony Pizzo, Joey Picardi, Fat Mike. In flashback: Nicky Cavella, Ink, Pittsy Gazzera, New characters: Auntie Mo, Johnny Cavella, Ronnie Gavigan, Jackie 

Synopsis: This issue jumps back and forth between the present day and the various flashbacks revealing the childhood of Nicky Cavella. 

The present day scene is set the next evening after last issue, and is as follows: Its late at night, probably the next day after last issue. The mafia bosses have gotten together to consider Nickys proposal. Nicky Cavella and Teresa Gazzera are sitting in a room waiting on the other mobsters to decide. Tony Pizzo and Fat Mike want to side with Nicky, but another mobster, Joey Picardi, doesnt like making Nicky the leader. Joey comes out of the room to go to the bathroom, and tells Nicky hes not going to vote for him. Teresa goes into the bathroom and kills Joey and hauls off the corpse. The other mobsters finally decide and agree to Nickys plan. Nicky tells them to go home and wait for word from him in the morning about what to do next 

Meanwhile, the flashbacks are broken down as follows: 

Pgs. 1 and 2: Flashback: We see Nicky Cavella, (a young kid of 8 years of age) killing his father, (Johnny Cavella) out in the woods. We are told Nicky just got done killing his mother and his sister. 

Pgs. 5-7: Flashback: Later on the same night as pgs. 1 and 2. Other members of Nickys mafia family show up, led by Auntie Mo who comforts Nicky. Nicky tells everyone that Uncle Jimmy killed Nickys family...The mobsters go and whack Jimmy, and we learn that Auntie Mo set this up, and told Nicky shed reward him for going along with the scheme. 

Pgs. 8: Flashback: Probably not to long after the last flashback. Auntie Mo is now running the Cavella crime family. She lets Nicky sit in on a mobster meeting. Nicky is noted here as being 8 years old. 

Pg. 9-10: Flashback: Maybe just a couple years later. Nicky appears to be around 12 or maybe 13 years of age here. For Nickys birthday, Auntie Mo rapes him, (calling it a birthday present). 

Later that same night, Auntie Mo leads young Nicky down into the basement, where Auntie Mo reveals she has tied up Ronnie Gavigan, the owner of three bars who apparently got on the Cavella familys bad side for failing to pay back a debt. Auntie Mo leaves Nicky alone with Ronnie, with instruction to kill him. This is his other birthday present 

Pg. 14: Flashback: A few years later. Nicky is 17 or 18 in appearance. In the middle of another sexual romp, Nicky kills Auntie Mo. 

Pg. 15: Flashback: Probably not too long after the last flashbackmaybe a year or so. Nicky is now a grown up and part of the crime family. He may be head of the Cavella family name, but he and all the other mobsters take orders from Don Cesare, (the old man the Punisher killed in Punisher MAX #1). Jackie, (a higher ranking mobster than Nicky) says that Don Cesare is ordering Nicky to go issue a warning to David Kai, the leader of the Chinese mobster gang. Nicky says hell teach David Kai a lesson, but Jackie warns Nicky not to kill Kai. 

Pg. 16-18: Flashback: A short time later after the last flashback, (maybe a few days) Nicky, (along with his lackeys Ink and Pittsy, who also were in Punisher MAX #1-6), pay a visit to David Kai, killing all three of David Kais sons and cooking the youngest son up in Kais Chinese kitchen. 

Pg. 19: Flashback: A short time later after the last flashback, (maybe a few days): Nicky is meeting with Jackie again. Jackie says Don Cesare is unhappy with what Nicky did to David Kai, and that now there is going to be a turf war between the Italians and the Chinese. Nickys basically like, You told me not to kill him, and to issue a warning, and thats what I did. But Jackie says that Nicky needs to leave town. He tells Nicky to go live in Boston, and not to come back to New York until Don Cesare is dead. 

And thats the story of how Nicky Cavella went into exile, until he reemerged on the scene in Punisher MAX #1-6. 

References: Besides what I noted above 

Pg. 19: Jackie tells Nicky that Massimo Cesare is eighty-five years old. And says hell surely die soon. Well, the Punisher killed Don Cesare on his 100th birthday in Punisher MAX #1. So this flashback happened 15 years ago. 

The early flashbacks, (of pgs. 1 and 2, 5-8) all have people wearing clothes like its the 1970s. The later flashbacks show people on the street in 80s style clothes 

Punisher #21 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez 

Appearances: Punisher, Nicky Cavella, OBrien, Roth, Rawlins, Teresa Gazzera, Tony Pizzo, New characer: Nikolai Kaganovitch. 

Synopsis: The Next Day, (after last issue): OBrien shows up at Roths apartment, having escaped from prison, (Roth is the other CIA recruit to survive from Punisher MAX #1-6hes the guy that got his nuts cut off by Pittsy). She asks Roth to use his internet hacking skills to create a new identity for her, so she can flee the country. She then notices a newspaper on Roths table, which has the headline, DEFILED on it, along with pictures of the Punisher and the disturbed grave of his family. 

She starts watching the news coverage of the event on T.V., and feels sympathy for the Punisher. Roth, meanwhile, upon cracking some CIA databases for OBrien, finds out that her ex-husband is in town. Her ex-husband, it turns out, is Rawlins, (who is in New York on a mission to kill the Punisher on behalf of the U.S. generals). OBrien immediately changes her plans: instead of fleeing the country, she now wants to set out to kill her ex-husband. 

Meanwhile, Frank sets out on a killing spree. He heads to a bar owned by Nikolai Kaganovitch, a Russian mobster, and kills the guy and everyone of his thugs, leaving only one thug alive, who tells the police, (when they arrive) that the Punisher told him to give a message: bury his family again if they want the carnage to stop. This is repeated 3 times over the course of the issue, (a news reporter on T.V. refers to tonight as being the Punishers Night of Carnage). According to the news reporter, the City govt. says they will not yield into Franks demands, saying the bodies of Franks family are now part of a criminal investigation, but the city officials become quiet as the bodies continue to pile up. 

At Nicky Cavellas place, he and the other mobsters go over what their plan is. Nicky explains that Frank is going on a killing spree to get the city to rebury his family, that way he can get his head clear and back in the game before coming after Nicky himself. Just then, into the room walks Rawlins, whom Nicky is shocked to see. Rawlins is apparently an old friend of Nickys 

Yes, it turns out all of these characters from the last few arcs are all slightly connected to one another. 

References: 

Pg. 3: OBrien says she escaped from prison, the night before last. Since she immediately decided to break out after being framed for killing the security guard, (from 2 issues ago), that would seem to put Issue #19 as happening 2 days ago. 

Punisher #22 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez 

Appearances: Punisher, Nicky Cavella, OBrien, Roth, Rawlins, Teresa Gazzera, Tony Pizzo 

Synopsis: Picks up in the early morning hours after last issue, (so its the next day). 

Punisher wakes up the next morning in his van, having dozed off after wrapping up his killing spree for the night. He just had a nightmare in which he killed everyone on the planet, (he fears hes going to snap, and no longer be able to tell the difference between innocent people and the criminals). 

Meanwhile, Rawlins tells Nicky that hes hunting the Punisher, and that he wants to team up with Nicky. They come to an agreement: Rawlins will help Nicky kill the Punisher, and then hell disappear and leave Nicky alone to run the mafia empire. They concoct a plan to use Nicky as bait, to draw the Punisher out. 

Meanwhile, the mayor of NYC, (who doesnt get a name, and who doesnt look like Michael Bloomberg), is holding a conference with his top aides, about what to do in regards to the Punisher. They decide to rebury the Castle family quickly, and hope that the Punisher and Nicky Cavella kill each other in the coming battle. Shortly later, they hold a press conference, announcing they are reburying the bodies. 

After listening to the press conference, Frank decides its time to go after Nicky. He knows its a suicide run, and that hes walking straight into a trap, but hes so mad at Nicky that he cant see clearly. He decides to go to Tony Pizzos diner, (Tony is a known mafia figure), to see if he can find Nicky there. Meanwhile, Roth and OBrien have been tracking Rawlins, and are now on a stake out outside of Nicky Cavellas hideout. Rawlins tells Nicky to sit outside of Tony Pizzos diner, and hell wait on a nearby rooftop to snipe the Punisher as he pulls up. 

A short time later, the Punisher pulls up. He steps out of his van and prepares to shoot Nicky, but OBrien shoots Nicky first with the sniper gun, hitting Nicky in the chest, (she knocked out Rawlins and stole his gun). She yells at Frank to run for his life. 

References: 

Pg. 6: Not neccesarily a chronology note, but to explain how the two villians know each other: Nicky, (who is at first hesitant to team up with Rawlins), says, This aint like Boston, this aint some business thing where I move smack for you an your company pals. So thats the connection between the two of them-theyve been engaged in criminal activities before now, (the CIA and the Mafia in bed together, sounds like a conspiracy theory) 

Pg. 10: The Mayor of NYC says, We cannot have another night like last night. Hes speaking in reference to the Punishers Night of Carnage. So this issue happens the day after last issue. 

Punisher #23 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez 

Appearances: Punisher, Nicky Cavella, OBrien, Roth, Rawlins, Teresa Gazzera, Tony Pizzo 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-11: Picks up right where we left off last issue. Teresa knocks Frank down with a shotgun blast to the chest. OBrien fires a few more shots at Teresa and Nickys men, before turning around and throwing Rawlins unconscious body in the trunk of Roths car. They then speed around front, and before Teresa and the other mafia goons can finish off Frank, OBrien and Roth speed around and pick up Frank and drive off. Nicky, (who was wearing a bullet proof vest, and thus has survived the bullet that OBrien shot him with) gets in a car with Teresa and they start following the others. 

Frank, OBrien, and Roth head back to Roths place. They tie Rawlins up in a chair in the pantry and start interrogating him. He at first doesnt want to talk, but OBrien leaves him alone with FrankOutside, Nicky and Teresa are staking out the place, and waiting for Tony Pizzo and the other remaining goons to arrive before they launch an attack. 

Pgs. 12-22: Its after midnight by this point, so its the next day on the calender. 

Frank is done interrogating Rawlins by this point. Frank explains Rawlins is a CIA agent who teamed up with Nicky because the army generals ordered him to do it. Roth suggests they video tape Rawlins confessions and use it to blackmail the generals into leaving all of them alone. Frank agrees to the plan. Later on, OBrien and Frank hop into the sack together. Meanwhile, outside, Nicky gets a phone call from Tony Pizzo saying theyre too scared to come and help them attack the Punisher. Nicky leaves Teresa to watch Roths place, and drives off to have a talk with Tony and the others. Teresa decides not to wait for the others, and sneaks inside, and prepares to attack Frank and OBrien, who are asleep in bed together 

References: 

Pg. 12: After interrogating Rawlins, Frank explains to OBrien and Roth why Rawlins is hunting him: Army and Air Force. Little cabal of generals, Rawlins is in deep with them. The jet the Russians shot down end of last yearturns out he put the hijackers together for that one. Thats a reference to the last storyline from issues 13-18. So this quote places those issues as happening end of last year. 

Pg. 14: While OBrien cleans a wound on Franks shoulder, she says, Ive been in jail for 18 months. When we get through here, you want to go jump in the sack? She went to jail at the end of Punisher MAX #6, but Nicky said in issue #19 that issues 1-6 happened one year ago, (which is not the same as 18 months) 

Pg. 19: OBrien tells Frank, (in regards to her own history with the CIA): They recruited me at Princeton, senior year. Ill be 39, (years old) in December. So its not December right now, (otherwise, shed say something like, Ill be 39 later this month). 

Im not sure which of these quotes from these issues are lining up and which arent, but Im giving you all of them 

At the end of the issue, a clock on the wall says its 4:30 in the morning. So were now clearly into the next day on the calenderso I had to decide where the break in the day occurs. I decided to make it between pgs. 11 and 12, (on pg. 12, Frank is done interrogating Rawlins by that point). 

Punisher #24 
Written by Garth Ennis 
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez 

Appearances: Punisher, Nicky Cavella, OBrien, Roth, Rawlins, Teresa Gazzera, Tony Pizzo 

Synopsis: Picks up where we left off last issue. 

Teresa attacks OBrien and Frank, wounding them, but the two of them get the upper hand on her and kill her. Meanwhile, Nicky goes and has a talk with Tony Pizzo and the other remaining mafia men, all of whom tell Nicky that theyre tired of taking orders from him. So Nicky realizes hes on his own now. Meanwhile, Frank realizes they are now pressed for time, and they decide to go ahead and videotape Rawlins confessing to crimes hes commited for the CIA. After he confesses to orchestrating the hijacking of the plane, OBrien decides she wants to video tape him confessing to other crimes, so OBrien and Frank decide to go make a copy of this tape, and come back and film Rawlins some more. They leave Roth alone with Rawlins, and step outside 

They dont get far down the street, when they see Nicky Cavella drive by, (looking for Teresa). Nicky spots them, and so they shoot out his tires. Nicky jumps out of his car, and starts to take a hostage, (a little kid on his way to school-its now daylight outside in the morning by this point). Frank says hes just making it harder on himself, (more painful of a death) if he doesnt just give up now. Nicky accepts defeat, and lets the hostage go. Frank and OBrien run back up to Roths apartment, to find Roth dead, and Rawlins missing, (just like Nicky survived issues #1-6, to come back for a sequel, I expect Rawlins is being set up to come back someday soon in another storyline). Frank tells OBrien she needs to disappear now, before the police come. They go their separate ways. 

Cut to later, (what I take to be later that same day). Frank drives Nicky Cavella way out into the New York countryside, before marching Nicky at gunpoint out into the woods. Frank narrates that hes feeling back in control of himself, for the first time since this storyline began. He shoots Nicky in the stomach, leaving him to bleed to death from the wound, out here where no one can hear his cries for help. You made it personal, Cavella. But all that buys you is a little more pain than most. 

The End. 

References: There is a light amount of snow on the ground out in the woods when the Punisher kills Nicky. That would seem to indicate it is Fall or Winter outside, (or possibly early Spring)? 

Thats it for this review. Up next is my review of Amazing Fantasy #7-12.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 26 Oct 2005 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 09:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin. No problem with the delay, since I'm in a holding pattern with HOM and SECWAR. Although incorporating this into the calendar is going to compete with the massive amount of new material I'm picking up this week. (Yikes.)
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 62

Posted: 26 Oct 2005 02:01 am    Post subject: M/CP 131: Wolverine
By Col_Fury

M/CP 131: Wolverine 
"These Foolish Things" 
W: James "Professor" Felder 
D: Dennis Jensen 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Tyger Tiger, Sapphire Styx. 

Synopsis: 
In Madripoor, Wolverine is in a bar fight in Tyger's bar. Tyger takes himinto her office & informs him that Sapphire Styx has stolen something that she wants back. 
Wolverine finds Sapphire & gets the item back. 
Back at the bar, Tyger shows Wolverine what the item is: Mariko's kimono sash holder. 

References: 
All in one night, it's a full moon in Madripoor. The full moon is referenced a lot, so it's a plot element. 

This happens after Mariko's death, but not immediately. Some time has passed, which would make sense. 

Wolverine is getting drunk & starting fights because he's depressed about something. It would make sense if this story were to follow the previous M/CP story, giving him something to be depressed about. M/CP 123-130 had Wolverine meeting Lynx, he became attached to her, then he left her alone in the Canadian wilderness where he knew that she expected him to come back to her. He felt really bad about it, so this story could be him feeling depressed about it. 

Some suggested chronology placements: 

Wolverne/Logan/James Howlett 
... 
M/CP 130 
*M/CP 131 
W2 69 
... 

Tyger Tiger/Jessan Hoan 
... 
M/CP 92 
*M/CP 130 
NT2 3
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 63

Posted: 26 Oct 2005 02:09 am    Post subject: M/CP 131/3: Ant-Man
By Col_Fury

M/CP 131/3: Ant-Man 
"Late for Supper" 
W & D: Sandy Plunkett 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: 
Ant-Man(Scott Lang), a robber, a bratty kid, the brat's mom. 

Synopsis: 
One night, a guy tries to steal from Stark Industries, stashes the stolen goods in a house he comes across. 
The next evening, Ant-Man is looking for the robber, sees a clue at the brat's house & goes in through the window.(flying on an ant, of course) The kid pummels Ant-Man with food, then the robber comes back to get the stuff he stashed there last night. Ant-Man knocks him out & leaves. The kid's mom returns to find the house is a mess. 

References: 
The story happens over two days. The first is a moonless night, which is a plot element, then the next evening. 

Ant-Man works at Stark Industries, which would place this in the 'current day' at the time. 

A suggested chronology placement: 

Ant-Man II/Scott Harris Lang 
M/CP 81/3 
*M/CP 131/3 
FFU 5 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 64

Posted: 26 Oct 2005 02:21 am    Post subject: M/CP 132/3: Iron Man
By Col_Fury

M/CP 132/3: Iron Man 
"Novel Approach" 
W: Glenn Greenburg 
D: Paris Karounos 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: 
Iron Man(Tony Stark), Techno-Killer(Harold Marks), James Spencer. 

Synopsis: 
Techno-Killer attacks Iron Man, so Iron Man goes to writer James Spencer's house to interrogate him.(Techno-Killer's armor is a Stark design, & Tony thinks that Spencer's books, which have technical specifications alarmingly similar to Tony's, may mean that Spencer is responsible for Techno-Killer) Techno-Killer arrives, Iron Man hands him his @$$. Techno-Killer turns out to be Spencer's research assistant, Harold Marks. 

References: 
All in one afternoon, same day as IM 294. 

Tony is controlling the Iron Man armor by remote, because Tony is paralyzed. This would fit for the 'current day' at the time. 

An extremely helpful editor's box tells us: "As Iron Man heads to Stark Enterprises' space lab to investigate disturbances that have occured there of late...*" *see Iron Man #294. 

I think that narrows things down quite a bit. 

Iron Man/Tony Stark 
IM 293 
IM 294-FB 
*M/CP 132/3 
IM 294 

IM 294-FB shows Tony going through physical therapy before he heads off to the space lab. He's on his way up in M/CP 132/3 before he gets side-tracked, so there you go.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 65

Posted: 26 Oct 2005 02:29 am    Post subject: M/CP 123/2-130/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary
By Col_Fury

M/CP 123/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary 
the Walking Wounded pt 1 
Soulfeast 
W: Ann Nocenti 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: March 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Typhoid Mary, some womens rights activists, Dusk II-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
In between medications, Typhoid talks to the Ghost Rider in a shared dream. 
Dan Ketch is at a mall, where he runs into Mary Walker at a womens rights booth. She leaves quickly because shes attracted to Dan. Trying to collect her thoughts in the bathroom, she has a psychotic episode: Typhoid wants a favor. 

References: 
Typhoid tells Mary that they escaped the asylum by avoiding medications. 

Dan no longer lives at home, & he no longer requires sleep. This would place this story at least after GR3 33, where he discovers that he can no longer sleep, & therefore after GR3 38, because 33-38 run through each other in a fairly continuous story. 

M/CP 124/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary 
the Walking Wounded pt 2 
Stir the Soup 
W: Ann Nocenti 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: March 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Typhoid Mary, some womens rights activists, Dusk II-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Mary leaves the bathroom & runs into some mall security guards, who try to rape her. She turns into Typhoid & kills them. Dan turns into Ghost Rider(blood has been spilled, but it wasnt exactly innocent) & gives Typhoid his penance stare. 

References: 
Its closing time at the mall, so this takes place at night after 9:00 PM. 

M/CP 125/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary 
the Walking Wounded pt 3 
Innocent Blood 
W: Ann Nocenti 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: April 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Typhoid Mary, some womens rights activists, Dusk II-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Ghost Rider realizes that Typhoid is Mary. Now that he thinks hes spilled innocent blood himself, he freaks out for the rest of the issue. 
As reality starts to dissolve, Typhoid attacks another security guard. 
Mary wakes up, shes surrounded by the activists, who want to kill all of the men. 

M/CP 126/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary 
the Walking Wounded pt 4 
Jerk the Bait 
W: Ann Nocenti/Steve Lightle 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: April 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Typhoid Mary, some womens rights activists, Dusk II-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Realizing what Typhoid has done, Mary freaks out & runs off. 
Dan comes to his senses. 
Typhoid arrives, talks to Dan. 
Another security guard arrives, Typhoid kills him. 
Dan turns into Ghost Rider, attacks Typhoid. 

M/CP 127/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary 
the Walking Wounded pt 5 
Seal the Deal 
W: Ann Nocenti 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: May 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Typhoid Mary, some womens rights activists, Dusk II. 

Synopsis: 
Ghost Rider & Typhoid fight. 
Ghost Rider realizes that Dusk is present, then fights him. Dusk shape changes into various characters.(Wolverine, Hulk, Moon Knight, Elektra, Venom, then Punisher) It looks like Dusk has defeated Ghost Rider! Oh no! 

References: 
This is the same Dusk that we later see in Venom: the Madness.(also written by Nocenti) 

M/CP 128/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary 
the Walking Wounded pt 6 
Roll the Bones 
W: Ann Nocenti 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: May 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Typhoid Mary, some womens rights activists, Dusk II, Necromancer II. 

Synopsis: 
Ghost Rider fights Dusk in the Realm of Madness, meets the Necromancer. 
Talking to herself, Typhoid reveals that Dusk has been BTS the whole time. 

References: 
Dusk has been manipulating events, giving him a BTS notation for M/CP 123/2-126/2. 

M/CP 129/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary 
the Walking Wounded pt 7 
Peak the Pathos 
W: Ann Nocenti/Steve Lightle 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Typhoid Mary, some womens rights activists, Dusk II, Necromancer II. 

Synopsis: 
Ghost Rider chases Necromancer in the Realm of Madness. 
Mary meets Necromancer(same character, in two places at once. Hey, its the realm of Madness! He can do that!) in the Realm of Madness. 
Pg4-5, two page spread, panel 2: FlashBack to Marys childhood. We see Mary as an infant being abused by her father. 
Dusk arrives, Mary hallucinates. 
Having defeated Necromancer,(or at least one facet of him) Ghost Rider arrives, Typhoid is upset at everyone. 

References: 
This would be Marys earliest FB appearance. Here shes an infant, in Typhoid 4-FB shes a young girl in an asylum, & in DD 350-FB shes a young woman as a prostitute, falling out of a window. 

M/CP 130/2: Ghost Rider/Typhoid Mary 
the Walking Wounded pt 8 
Pay the Maker 
W: Ann Nocenti/Steve Lightle 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Typhoid Mary, some womens rights activists, Dusk II, Necromancer II. 

Synopsis: 
Dusk attacks, Mary runs off. 
Ghost Rider defeats Dusk with holy toilet water. 
Mary takes her medication. 

References: 
The entire 8 issues all take place in one night. 

Herere some fancy suggested chronology placements: 

Typhoid Mary/Mary Mezinis/Mary Walker/Lyla/Bloody Mary/Innocent Mary 
*M/CP 129/2-FB 
TYPHOID 4-FB 
 
M/CP 116 
*M/CP 123/2 
*M/CP 124/2 
*M/CP 125/2 
*M/CP 126/2 
*M/CP 127/2 
*M/CP 128/2 
*M/CP 129/2 
*M/CP 130/2 
PPTSS 213 
... 

Dusk II 
*M/CP 123/2-BTS 
*M/CP 124/2-BTS 
*M/CP 125/2-BTS 
*M/CP 126/2-BTS 
*{M/CP 127/2} 
*M/CP 128/2 
*M/CP 129/2 
*M/CP 130/2 
V: MADNESS 1-BTS 
V: MADNESS 2 
V: MADNESS 3 

Necromancer II 
*M/CP 128/2 
*M/CP 129/2 
*M/CP 130/2 
V: MADNESS 2 
V: MADNESS 3 

Ghost Rider III/Dan Ketch 
 
GR3 38 
NS 7 
*M/CP 123/2 
*M/CP 124/2 
*M/CP 125/2 
*M/CP 126/2 
*M/CP 127/2 
*M/CP 128/2 
*M/CP 129/2 
*M/CP 130/2 
FF 374 
... 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 66

Posted: 24 Sep 2005 02:41 am    Post subject: Black Panther vol 4, #1-6
By Col_Fury

Black Panther vol. 4 #1 
Who is the Black Panther? pt 1 
W: Reginald Hudlin 
D: John Romita Jr 
Published: April 2005 

Appearances: 
Black Panther circa 5th Century, Ulysses Klaw, the Cannibal, Ancestor of Klaw, Black Panther circa 19th Century, Dondi, unnamed General, Everett Ross, Captain America circa 1944, Black Panther circa 1944(TChalka), Bearded guy. 

Synopsis: 

Pg1-6: 5th Century, Wakanda;-FB 
An unnamed tribe attempts to invade Wakanda. Theyre stopped by booby traps, an unseen but heard Black Panther says: Tell your tribe. Tell everyone. 
Pg7: Unspecified time,(current day, nighttime) a prison cell; 
Klaw is telling the Cannibal how advanced Wakanda is over everyone else throughout history. 
Pg8-17: 19th Century, Wakanda;-FB 
An ancestor of Ulysses Klaw is leading an invasion force towards Wakanda. The native workers get nervous & run, so Klaws ancestor orders them to be shot. Without natives, the army has to haul all of the luggage & weapons. When they arrive at Wakanda, the Black Panther appears & warns them off as they raise their weapons. A machine rises behind Black Panther, causing the rifles to all misfire. Upset, Klaws ancestor tries to fire the Gatling gun, which also misfires, killing him. Wakandas army comes out to slaughter the invaders. 
Pg18-20: Unspecified time,(current day, daytime) Washington DC; 
National Security Agency meeting, a general is upset that Wakanda has declared their country a no fly zone. He makes a few off-color comments, so Dondi(a thinly veiled Condoleeza Rice character) tells him to shut up. Everett Ross, a specialist on Wakanda, 
arrives to give a brief history: Theyve never been invaded, technologically advanced, co cold war alliances or otherwise, large oil deposits but they dont use them because they have eco-friendly power sources such as solar & hydrogen, etc. The general is upset again, wants to invade Wakanda, but Everett says its already been tried 
Pg21-22: 1944, Wakanda;-FB 
Under narration by Ross: Captain America(with his triangle shield) entered Wakanda looking for Nazis, but they had already been beheaded by the Wakandans. Cap & Black Panther fight, Cap loses. 
Pg23: Unspecified time,(current day, daytime) Washington DC; 
The general is upset because he doesnt believe that Cap lost. Everett mentions that the Black Panther also defeated the Fantastic Four. The general assaults Everett, Dondi has him thrown out. A bearded man asks, referring to Black Panther: If this guy is all that, who can handle him? 
Pg24: Unspecified time,(current day, nighttime) a prison cell; 
Cannibal says: A presidential pardon is appealing. Klaw mentions Ive already killed one Black Panther 15 years ago, I almost killed his son then. 

References: 
Cap in WWII; Glancing at the link provided on Caps chronology page, its revealed that the original triangular shield was given to King TChalka of Wakanda as a pledge of Captain Americas good faith in helping to keep Wakanda unspoiled during WWII. This fight must take place before that, but why would they be fighting? 

Everett Ross; According to Black Panther vol.3, #1(the one issue I own of this volume) Everett only had cursory knowledge of the Black Panther & Wakanda, but here hes referred to as an expert. Therefore, the NSA meeting seen here must occur after BP3. 

Klaw; I killed one Black Panther 15 years ago. TChaka died 10 years To the day! before FF 52, so this is 5 years after that, which makes no sense. Chalk it up to topical reference. Also, Klaw has apparently figured out how to look more human, as opposed to his sound form. He has hair, facial features, etc. Also, his megaphone hand has been upgraded; it can change shape & stuff. 

Black Panther vol. 4 #2 
Who is the Black Panther? pt 2 
W: Reginald Hudlin 
D: John Romita Jr 
Published: May 2005 

Appearances: 
TChalla, his uncle, TShan, Shuri, the Queen,(TChallas & Shuris mother) Bald guy with glasses, Everett Ross, Dondi, Ulysses Klaw, Cannibal. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: Unspecified time,(current day, daytime) Washington DC; 
NSA meeting from last issue, Dondi asks: Who is the Black Panther? Ross replies: His name is TChalla, son of TChaka. 
Pg2-3pn4: Sometime before FF 52, Wakanda;-FB 
We see the Black Panther(TChallas uncle) emerge from a giant panther statue. 
Pg3pn5: Unspecified time,(current day, daytime) Washington DC; 
Ross explains that the Black Panther is the ruler of Wakanda. Its a spiritually based warrior cult. Sort of like being the Pope, President, & Head of joint Chiefs of Staff all at once 
Pg4-5: Sometime before FF52, Wakanda;-FB 
Under narration by Ross, we see the Black Panther of the time(TChallas uncle) leap from the statue into the arena. A challenger approaches,(TShan) they circle each other. The narration: The Panther is a hereditary title, but you still have to earn it. The series of tests that a Panther must pass are so arduous that only candidates whove had special training from childhood can qualify. But just so everyone gets a chance, once a year theres a day when any Wakandan can challenge the King for the throne. So as royal lineages go, its a lot more of a Meritocracy than say, England. 
Pg 6-8pn1: Sometime before FF52, Wakanda;-FB 
Continuing from pg 5, no more narration. Panther beats TShan. Another enters, a very large guy. They begin to fight. 
Pg8pn2-pn4: Sometime before FF52, Wakanda;-FB 
The Queen of Wakanda(TChallas mother) is worrying about the annual tournament, shes watching it on TV. An aide suggests she visit the princess.(Shuri) The Queen goes off looking for her, saying Shuri its mother! 
Pg9: Sometime before FF 52, Wakanda;-FB 
Shuri bypasses some guards so she can enter the tournament. She mentions: My brother isnt the only Panther in the family 
Pg10: Sometime before FF 52, Wakanda;-FB 
Making her way to the arena, she passes TShan, her cousin. He says You havent even finished your training 
Pg11-17pn4: Sometime before FF52, Wakanda;-FB 
On her way up the stairs to the arena, the large contestant is thrown on top of her. Another contestant(TChalla) runs over him, onto the arena. TChalla & his uncle start to fight. TChalla wins, the announcer says: TChalla! Son of TChaka! TShan is upset, says Look at my father So happy that it isnt me. He made sure of that. To a bald guy with glasses. 
Pg17pn5-pn6: Sometime before FF 52, Wakanda;-FB 
The Queen is upset that her son TChalla has won. Her aide says He has ascended to his fathers throne! 
Pg18: Unspecified time,(current day, daytime) Washington DC; 
NSA meeting, Dondi recaps what Ross just said and states Its standard operating procedure to have a military option in place for any potential threat to the US. Everett asks if we have the resources with our military forces stretched all over the Middle East. Dondi says this conflict wouldnt be appropriate for conventional force. This is a job for special forces. Very special forces 
Pg19-22: Unspecified time(current day, nighttime) & place; 
Klaw & Cannibal go into a whorehouse. Cannibal switches bodies with a hooker, his old body is dead, she/he walks out. She/he mentions that he has her memories. She/he & Klaw drive off. 

References: 
Pgs4-17 show TChalla taking leadership of Wakanda. Obviously, this takes place before his first appearance in Fantastic Four. Also, the uncle is never named throughout these 6 issues, which makes things confusing. Ill just refer to him as Uncle for the rest of this analysis. 

The NSA meeting is now set in current day, with the references to the Middle East & Everetts knowledge of the Black Panther. The Middle East references are topical, of course. But why do these high ranking government officials know next to nothing of Wakanda? Yes, Wakanda is inclusive, & of course most people dont pay much attention to foreign affairs, but isnt that what these people do for a living? Maybe thats why they needed Ross 

Black Panther vol. 4 #3 
Who is the Black Panther? pt 3 
W: Reginald Hudlin 
D: John Romita Jr 
Published: June 2005 

Appearances: 
TChalla, TChaka, pregnant woman, dead brother, Uncle, bald guy with glasses, Klaw, Rhino, Batroc, Cannibal, Radioactive Man(Igor Stancheck), Ancestor of Klaw, Black Knight(new), MButu, WKabi, Namor-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-4: Current day, Africa, Niganda; 
The Rhino takes down a real rhino. Batroc the Leaper insults him. Klaw talks to Batroc while Cannibal watches, Klaw mentions that the rhino fought the Hulk. Batroc & Klaw look into a containment box, which is holding a new Russian Radioactive Man, whom Klaw calls Igor. Batroc asks what their chances of defeating the Black Panther are, to which Klaw replies Pretty good, considering Ive already killed one. 
Pg5pn1-pn2: Some years ago, Bilderburg Conference;-FB 
Klaw: I was there to kill a man. 
Pg5pn3: Current day, Africa, Niganda; 
Batroc: On a job? Klaw: I was hired, yes. But it was also personal. 
Pg5pn4-pn5: 19th Century, Africa;-FB 
I come from a military family. My great-great-great-grandfather was one of the founding fathers of South Africa. The Panther killed him in an unfair fight. This recaps lasts issues 19th Century adventures, no new information. 
Pg5pn6: Current day, Africa, Niganda; 
Klaw: When I was hired to assassinate him pleasure & honor, make my reputation, etc. 
Pg6-pg13pn1: Some years ago, Bilderburg Conference;-FB 
Wakanda was invited to this conference because the other countries wanted Vibranium. TChaka refuses to trade with them, goes back to his hotel. TChalla & another kid are there with a pregnant woman. Klaw is seen outside with a sniper rifle, tries to shoot through the window. He then bursts out from under the floor, Klaw says in narration: I had been waiting beneath the floorboards for a week. The unnamed kid is killed, Klaw & TChaka fight, TChaka dies. TChalla shoots Klaws arm off, so he jumps out the window where a plane in waiting for him. It flies away with Klaw. Klaw mentions in narration that his sponsors brought him home & hid him from Wakandan security forces over the next decade or so. 
Pg13pn2: Current day, Africa, Niganda; 
Batroc questions where Klaw went home to. 
Pg13pn3: 19th Century, Africa;-FB 
Klaws family returned to Belgium after his ancestor died. We see that all that was left of him was a boot with a foot in it. 
Pg13pn4: Current day, Africa, Niganda; 
Klaw tells Batroc that the Belgium government took good care of him. 
Pg14: Some years ago, after the Bilderburg Conference, Belgium;-FB 
Under narration by Klaw, the Belgium government experimented on Klaw for close to a decade. When they were done, Klaw says that he was the worlds top assassin 'again.' 
Pg15-17: Sometime before FF 52, after FB from issue 2, Wakanda;-FB 
A young, recently coroneted TChalla is upset that his intelligence agents cant find his fathers killer. WKabi, head of security, mentions: Not only did he disappear after the attack on your father, his past is also gone. They discuss other matters of state, TChalla wants to appoint his uncle as Ambassador to the UN, who declines. TChalla nominates his cousin TShan. TChalla receives a call from Nelson Mandela, with President Bush,(which one?) Fidel Castro, & Prince Namor all on hold. 
Pg18-21: Current day, Vatican, Rome; 
Cannibal is at the Vatican. A priest takes her to the lower levels, where the Ebony Blade is in a glass case. In another room, the Black Knight is sparring on his flying horse with someone. The horse poops on Cannibal. 
Pg22-23: Current day, Africa, Niganda; 
MButu is beating a servant when Klaw arrives. Klaw & co. have their base camp here, MButu has hired Klaw to kill TChalla & overthrow Wakanda. Klaw says the attack starts tomorrow at dawn. 

References: 
Klaws version of how TChaka died cannot be reconciled with how it was presented in FF 53. According to FF 53,(which is the correct version) Klaw was a scientist looking for Vibranium to perfect his sound machine, & Reed Richards had never heard of it. Klaw killed TChaka in Wakanda, & TChalla shattered Klaws hand. In BP4 3, Klaw says that he was hired to assassinate TChaka at a conference in Bilderburg(where the trading of Vibranium was discussed), where Klaw killed TChaka. TChalla shot off Klaws arm with a machine gun. The difference is, Klaw is telling a story to Batroc, most likely embellishing to make himself sound better. Maybe being a scientist makes him sound less macho? Who knows, but this version is wrong. As far as cyborg enhancements & being experimented on for close to a decade, chalk it up to exaggeration. Klaw could be an assassin now, but being one at the time of TChakas death just doesnt fit. Again, Klaws version of the story was tailored to be told to Batroc, also a hired assassin, to make himself sound better. To make it easier, chalk the whole FlashBack up to Klaw lying through his teeth. 

Rhino fought the Hulk once, which he did. This is current day, so this reference is no problem. 

This is a new Black Knight, complete with the Ebony Blade & a flying horse. 

This is a new Radioactive Man, from Russia. 

T'Challa is still looking for his fathers killer, placing this FlashBack before FF 52 & 53. They don't say anything here that contradicts FF 53, if only because they don't mention specifics, just that they can't find him. 

Nelson Mandela retired in June of 1999. Topical reference to be sure, but TChalla receives a call from Mandela, with President Bush, Fidel Castro & Prince Namor on hold. Bush Sr. was in office from 1989 to 1992, Jr started in 2001. So this means that TChalla became Black Panther sometime between 89 & 92 or early day Marvel Universe, & thats Bush Sr. on hold. 

The invasion starts tomorrow at dawn. 

Black Panther vol. 4 #4 
Who is the Black Panther? pt4 
W: Reginald Hudlin 
D: John Romita Jr. 
Published: July 2005 

Appearances: 
Black Panther(TChalla), Ulysses Klaw, Radioactive Man(Igor Stancheck), Rhino, Black Knight(new), Shuri, Uncle, WKabi, Bald guy with glasses, Everett Ross, Dondi, general from issue 1. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-3: Current day, Wakanda; 
A class is touring Wakandas Vibranium factory, when an earthquake hits. A kid falls, but the Black Panther saves him. From a distance, its revealed that Igor is the cause of the quake. 
Pg4-6: Current day, Wakanda; 
At the factory, Black Panther, his uncle & staff are trying to determine the cause of the tremors. Shuri offers to investigate, Black Panther tells her no. Black Panther then talks to the kid he saved. 
Pg7-9: The next day, Wakanda; 
Black Knight is praying before the attack on Wakanda at dawn. Klaw asks him to speak to the group. So he gives a religious speech. 
Pg10-11: At dawn, Wakanda; 
Asleep, TChalla dreams. 
Pg12-13: Current day, Wakanda; 
TChalla is woken, theres an emergency. WKabi informs Black Panther(who is now in costume) that the Rhino is coming. Black Panther asks for files on the Rhino. 
Pg14-17: Current day, Wakanda; 
Wakandan jets are pursuing the Rhino, but theyre intercepted by the Black Knight, who destroys one jet. 
Pg18-21: Current day, Wakanda; 
Shuri is investigating the tremors when a projectile falls into the factory. Igor comes out, & kills one of the factory workers. 
Pg 22: Current day, Washington DC; 
An aide alerts Everett Ross of the attack on Wakanda, Ross's 'field of specialty.' The general from issue #1 is briefing Dondi, he mentions that Niganda is using Ulysses Klaw, a high-level Belgian assassin. One of the government guys says we need to help our Wakandan allies. Another mentions that our troops are spread too thin already. He replies: Weve got more than enough bodies to inva- I mean, assist Wakanda! 

References: 
This issue from pg 7 forward are on the same day as the next two issues, which is the day after pg 6. We attack tomorrow at dawn. The Black Knight praying/giving a speech before the attack on Wakanda is at roughly the same time as TChalla dreaming. 

The NSA meeting takes place relatively concurrently with Klaw assembling his team, because the art depicted age differences in characters when an obvious time-shift occurred.(i.e.: FlashBacks) There are no age differences shown between appearances with the government officials. 

Ulysses Klaw, a high-level Belgian assassin. Like I said earlier, Klaw could very well be an assassin now, so this bit of dialogue doesnt hold much weight towards Klaws FlashBack sequence. 

Black Panther vol. 4 #5 
Who is the Black Panther? pt 5 
W: Reginald Hudlin 
D: John Romita Jr. 
Published: August 2005 

Appearances: 
Black Panther(TChalla), MButu, Shuri, Uncle, TShan, Queen, WKabi, Ulysses Klaw, Rhino, Batroc, Radioactive Man(Igor Stancheck), Black Knight(new), Cannibal, Everett Ross. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-5: Current day, Wakanda; 
The Rhino runs through some ladys house. Jets are trying to pinpoint him, so he throws a refrigerator at one. Nigandan troops are coming in through the path the Rhino made, so Black Panther calls MButu & they insult each other. 
Pg6-8: Current day, Wakanda; 
Black Panther decides to fight the Black Knight on his skybike. Shuri calls Uncle, tells him about Radioactive Man. 
Pg9-13: Current day, Wakanda; 
Rhino is subdued with gas, Black Panther defeats Black Knight. 
Pg14-15: Current day, United Nations, New York; 
Cannibal approaches TShan. Posing as the Radioactive Mans wife, she tells them a story about how he died at Chernobyl, & that he contacted her recently. She mentions finding out your husbands not dead after 10 years? She asks if Wakanda can cure him while someone does a background check on her. 
Pg16-17: Current day, International Waters; 
Everett Ross is on an aircraft carrier to brief the team being sent in to assist Wakanda. The team is Deathlok zombies! Ross mentions plot points from the movie Pirates of the Caribbean. 
Pg18-19: Current day, Wakanda/Niganda; 
On his skybike flying over the battle, Black Panther is being briefed on the situation. Instead of joining the fight he decides to go to Niganda. He finds & attacks MButu. 
Pg20-21: Current day, Wakanda; 
The Queen is attacked by Batroc, Klaw is with him. Hes wearing his red jumpsuit, sans hat. He still has human features & hair, no flat nose, etc. He says: Long time no see, your highness. 
Pg22: Current day, Wakanda; 
The Deathlok Brigade arrives at Wakanda, rising out of the bordering river. 

References: 
Long time no see, your highness. This implies that Klaw & the Queen have met before, but it could also just Be Klaw being glib. Theres no real weight to this reference, Klaws version of how TChaka died still doesnt count. 

10 years after Chernobyl, she finds out her husband isnt dead, he also contacted her recently, which is when she found out, which would mean that the Chernobyl Incident was roughly 10 years ago. This cant be the case.(Why? On the same day, Ross mentions plot points from Pirates of the Caribbean, a movie that wasnt around 10 years after Chernobyl.<Chernobyl was 1986, btw>) Either Reggie Hudlin doesnt know when Chernobyl happened, or shes lying.(or both) Shes not really Igors wife, shes just posing as her. The Chernobyl thing is an inconsistency within her story, therefore shes lying. 

The cyborg zombies are never referred to as the Deathlok Brigade, I made that name up. However, they are also not referred to as Deathloks, either. They do look exactly like Deathloks, though. 

Black Panther vol. 4 #6 
Who is the Black Panther? pt 6 
W: Reginald Hudlin 
D: John Romita Jr. 
Published: September 2005 

Appearances: 
Black Panther(TChalla), MButu, Queen, Ulysses Klaw, Batroc, Radioactive Man(Igor Stancheck), TShan, Cannibal, Uncle, WKabi, Shuri, Everett Ross. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-3: Current day, Niganda; 
Black Panther with an unconscious MButu talks to Klaw with the Queen through videophone. Klaw tells Igor to make more tremors, which he does, & the Deathlok Brigade notices. Klaw tells Black Panther to kill himself. 
Pg4: Current day, New York; 
TShan, Cannibal, & the other guy are leaving the UN to fly to Wakanda. Well be there in an hour. The guy who did the background check last issue says it turned out OK. 
Pg5-9: Current day, Wakanda; 
Black Panther & Klaw are still talking through videophone when Uncle shows up in his old Black Panther outfit with security people. Security takes down Batroc, but Klaw shoots Uncles leg off. 
Pg10-11: Current day, Wakanda; 
Another explosion, but it wasnt Igor, so Klaw hacks into Wakandan cyberspace. He notices the Deathlok Brigade, tells Igor to destroy Wakanda in 15 minutes. 
Pg12: Current day, Wakanda; 
Shuri attacks Igor. 
Pg13: Current day, Wakanda; 
WKabi notices Klaw in cyberspace, boots him out. 
Pg14: Current day, Wakanda; 
Igor chases Shuri, who finds Black Knights Ebony Blade. 
Pg15: Current day, Wakanda; 
Klaw notices Batroc has been tied up & that everyone else is gone. Outside, Uncle is being carried away by the security people he arrived with, & the Queen is carrying his leg. Klaw takes aim at them through the window. 
Pg16: Current day, Wakanda; 
Black Panther jumps through the window & hits Klaw as he fires, the blast hits the jet in the air, which contains TShan, Cannibal, & the other guy. 
Pg17-18: Current day, Wakanda; 
Black Panther & Klaw fight. 
Pg19: Current day, Wakanda; 
Shuri kills Igor with the Ebony Blade. 
Pg20: Current day, Wakanda; 
Black Panther kills Klaw. 
Pg21: Current day, Wakanda; 
At the plane crash site, Cannibal jumps into TShans body. The other guy is dead. 
Pg22-23: Current day, Wakanda; 
Black Panther tells the recently arrived Deathlok Brigade to go away. Everett Ross is on the aircraft carrier with the military guys, on the other end of the call. 

References: 
The background check on Igors wife came back OK, which only means that Klaw is good at forging records. If he can travel through cyberspace, then that would make sense. 

Forget what the interviews with Reggie said about Ross not knowing the Black Panther, or Black Panther not being an Avenger, neither of these subjects were mentioned in these issues. Also, the Year One Reggie referred to in interviews apparently only applied to the FlashBacks, & the rebooting or retcons only applied to Klaws history. Everything else takes place in the current day. 

Issue 8 of this series referred to the current day events of these first 6 issues as happening recently. Issue 8 is a cross-over with X-Men 175. 

I found this in a recent interview with Hudlin: 
Quote: 
"There's chaos in a country bordering Wakanda, Rwanda-style madness, which reveals some very bad stuff that was going on behind closed doors that was allowed by the recently collapsed government," Hudlin continued of the plot. 

So there it is. These six issues were probably intended to take place in early day Marvel Universe originally, but it sounds like someone convinced him otherwise. Or he forgot. Either way, they're a lot easier to deal with if they're recent. 

No mention of what time of year this takes place, but there's green trees & grass in Washington, DC. Green trees in Wakanda, too. The invasion begins at dawn. The sun is begenning to set when the Deathlok Brigade approaches Wakanda in #5. The sun is setting in New York when T'Shan's plane leaves for Wakanda. It's nighttime when the Black Panther tells the Deathlok Brigade to leave Wakanda at the end of #6. Also, there are no visible moons in any of the nighttimes of any of these issues. 

Quick rant: 
Why does Reggie name insignificant characters but not some important ones? Uncle still doesnt have a name, & he used to be Black Panther! TShans buddy that dies in the plane crash is unnamed, & the bald guy with glasses seems to be an important cabinet member of TChallas, but whats his name? What about Klaw's ancestor? What about the new Black Knight? However, random troops of Klaws ancestor are given names like Jensen.(no relation to me, I swear!) The two announcers at the annual tournament are named(KTyah & MShula) & well most likely never see them again. I just dont understand 

I have to admit, the only thing that kept me going through this was John Romita Jr.s art. Im a sucker for his stuff, especially when its inked by Klaus Janson. 

Ive color-coded the time frames above in an attempt to make things easier to read, but heres a brief recap for the current day stuff: 

One night, Klaw begins to assemble his team with Cannibal. 
Later that night, Cannibal switches bodies with a hooker. 
Most likely the next morning; NSA meeting, Ross gives us a history on Wakanda, general gets thrown out, more history on Wakanda. 
A Day or so later, Klaw is with his team in Niganda, preparing to invade Wakanda. 
Cannibal goes to the Vatican to recruit the new Black Knight. 
Igor tests his powers to see if he can create tremors, Black Panther saves a kid. 
Klaw visits MButu, says the invasion is tomorrow at dawn. 
Shortly before dawn the next day, Black Knight gives a religious speech while TChalla sleeps. 
Klaw invades Wakanda at dawn, while Shuri is investigating the tremors. 
NSA is alerted, Ross goes to an aircraft carrier. 
Cannibal In New York, talking to TShan 
More fighting during the invasion. 
Deathlok Brigade arrives. 
TShan & Cannibal arrive at Wakanda, plane is shot down by Klaw. 
Black Panther tells the Deathlok Brigade to leave after the invasion has been stopped. 

I wont even bother listing appearances MCP style until weve determined the canonicity of these issues. I hate to say it, but after slogging through this crap, I'm starting to lean towards canon for these issues, with the exception of Klaw's version of history, of course. 

There it is, folks! Have at it!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 28 Sep 2005 02:41 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 24 Sep 2005 03:14 am    
By Enda80

Klaw's family Belgian? I had though he was Dutch, and his father (or grandfather or....) was Klaue, the Nick Fury character with the metal hand. 
http://home.gate.net/%7Eimages/bios/ww2villans.htm 

Colonel Fritz Klaue 

Following Von Strucker's disgrace before the fuehrer, Klaue took up command of the Blitzkrieg Squad and used the opportunity to seek revenge for losing a secret base to Fury and the Howlers. Klaue was fitted with a tempered steel hand which actually became more of a hindrance then an aid in his failed attempts to defeat Fury and the Howlers. Eventually he too lost command of the Blitzers and Von Strucker took command again. 

Unafraid to face defeat again, Klaue outfitted himself with a second 
mechanical hand, improving on the original with hidden weapons 
housed within its fingers such as a projectable razor blade from the thumb, a lethal dart launcher from the index and (we're not kidding folks) a flame thrower from the middle finger. Despite these tricks, Klaue was defeated again. 

While on a misson to Africa, Klaue's plane went down in the kingdom of Wakanda, where he managed to befriend Wakandan ruler Chandra. Klaue used Chandra's trust to expoloit Wakanda's vibranium deposits, but in time Chandra returned as the Black Panter and ran Klaue out of his lands. Klaue eventually had a son born in the Netherlands who Dutchized his name to Klaw; Klaw slew T'Challa's father and has continued his father's Abrahamic struggle with sub-Saharan Africans.

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Posted: 24 Sep 2005 04:04 am    
By Col_Fury

As for the point you raise, the Netherlands & Belgium share a border, so we have two possibilites: 
1. The family returns to Belgium in the 19th Century, they eventually relocate to the Netherlands. Fritz has a son named Ulysses born in the Netherlands, who changes his last name to Klaw, and then at some point moves to Belgium. This was glossed over when told to Batroc, because why would Batroc care? 
2. Klaw is lying to Batroc about where he's from. 

The name "Klaw" was never used in conjuction with the 19th Century ancestor. He wasn't given any name, first or last. So possibility #1 could still work, 'saving' as much of these issues as possible. However, Klaw was lying about everything else, so possibility #2 is just as likely. 

Aside from Klaw's lineage, what about the rest of the issues? Canon or not?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 04:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

What before-and-after appearances are you proposing for each character? 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 06:35 pm    
By Somebody

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
What before-and-after appearances are you proposing for each character? 
<<<

Judging from what he said, Panther would be last in Avengers Finale, Ross in Black Panther (Priest series) #62, Klaw in BP (Priest) #29 (give or take an issue or two) and most of the others are new. 

Then most of them would be next in X-Men #175, Black Panther #8, or the arc's their last appearance to date.

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 07:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Judging from what he said, Panther would be last in Avengers Finale 
<<<

Hmm. I didn't see Panther in FINALE, but he does appear in HERC 1-FB (the memorial service for Ant-Man, Hawkeye, Jack of Hearts, and Vision). 



Quote: 
>>>
Then most of them would be next in X-Men #175, Black Panther #8, or the arc's their last appearance to date. 
<<<

What about issue #7? Wasn't that a House of M crossover? And didn't T'Challa appear in HOM 6? I suppose we're still debating the chronological order of HOM vis-a-vis issues of BP4, given the X-Men's chronology...but we still need to remember those House of M appearances.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 07:46 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Didn't we recently provisionally place X #175-176 and BP4 #8-9 before HoM? 

I don't think anyone's "forgotten" HoM -- but by our current assumption, X #175 and BP4 #8 *would* be the next appearances for the characters in question -- *followed* by their HoM appearances. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 07:56 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote:
>>>
Judging from what he said, Panther would be last in Avengers Finale 
<<<

Hmm. I didn't see Panther in FINALE, but he does appear in HERC 1-FB (the memorial service for Ant-Man, Hawkeye, Jack of Hearts, and Vision). 
<<<

Got mixed up about Finale, and merely presumed he was present without forcing myself to go back and check . Probably Herc then. 

And, yeah, I was working on the presumption of HoM being after Wild Kingdom.

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 08:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I don't think anyone's "forgotten" HoM  
<<<

Perhaps I misinterpreted Somebody's "last appearance to date" statement.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 09:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hmm. Nope -- I did. Sorry.  

Still, I think I got what he *meant* to say -- it's their next appearance after the BP4 arc. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 09:15 pm    
By Col_Fury

BP3 issues 5, 6, 8, 10, 26, 27, & 35 contain Flashbacks that I can't reference, since I don't own any of these issues. Placement suggestions for BP4 2-FB & BP4 3-FB will have to wait until I can track these issues down, or if someone can give me a brief description of what is covered in them.(I've tried looking at fansites, just to give myself an idea of what happens where, but all the Black Panther sites I could find aren't up anymore. The offical Priest site works, but it doesn't list issue numbers) 

Avengers 77 & 87 have FlashBacks, I also don't own these issues. 

M/TU 100/2-FB(which I do own) has T'Challa referred to as "prince," not King. 

I can tell you that BP4 2-FB & BP4 3-FB most likely takes place after T'Challa finishes his studies abroad, returns to Wakanda and endures the rite of ascension, & after he takes the 'heart-shaped herb.' Here's an educated guess: 

Black Panther/T'Challa 
... 
BP3 35-FB-BTS 
BP3 8-FB 
*BP4 2-FB 
*BP4 3-FB 
{FF 52} 
FF 53 
... 

And the rest: 
Black Panther/T'Challa 
... 
HERC(#?) 1-FB 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 
X 175 
BP4 8 
X 176 
BP4 9 
HOM 

Ross, Everett Kenneth 
... 
BP3 62 
*BP4 1 
*BP4 2 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

W'Kabi 
*BP4 3-FB 
{A 62} 
... 
BP3 41 
... 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

Klaw/Ulysses Klaw 
... 
BP3 29 
*BP4 1 
*BP4 2 
*BP4 3 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

Black Knight, Radioactive Man, & the Cannibal are new characters, & I'm still not sure if T'Challa's mother in BP4 is Ramonda or not. Also, his uncle is still unnamed, but he, Shuri & T'Shan have only appeared in BP4 as far as I can tell, but here's T'Shan as an example: 

T'Shan 
BP4 2-FB 
BP4 5 
BP4 6 

Namor's BP4 3-FB-BTS placement will have to wait until BP4 3-FB is placed with certainty in T'Challa's chronology. 

If anyone could give a brief recap of what happens in the FlashBacks above, I'd really appriciate it. I don't know how long it will take me to track down copies of those issues. Thanks in advance! 

Hope that helps. If there's any questions, I'd be happy to clarify.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 01 Oct 2005 07:40 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
BP3 issues 5, 6, 8, 10, 26, 27, & 35 contain Flashbacks that I can't reference, since I don't own any of these issues. 
<<<

Here's an old thread partially breaking down T'Challa's early chronology: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=792 


Quote: 
>>>
Namor's BP4 3-FB-BTS placement will have to wait until BP4 3-FB is placed with certainty in T'Challa's chronology 
<<<

Well, Namor was amnesiac from the mid-1950s until FF 4, so that scene has to occur between FF 4 & 52. God only knows how Namor would be getting phone service during the early Silver Age. 

-Sean

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Posted: 04 Oct 2005 12:27 am    
By Col_Fury

After some research, here's where I think Namor's 'appearance' best fits in his chronology: 

Sub-Mariner/Namor MacKenzie 
A 16 
*BP4 3-FB-BTS 
DD 7 
TTA 70 

Namor called T'Challa on the 'Aquaphone' to presumed ably congratulate him on his recent coronation. Of course this takes place before FF 52, but there needs to be time enough for T'Challa to arrange his cabinet members & get his country in order, so not too close to FF 52. Also, Namor is in charge of Atlantis at this point, so Krang's rebellion seen in TTA should occur after BP4 3-FB-BTS. 

Ramonda 
BP3 12-FB 
*BP4 2-FB 
{BP3 1} 
... 
BP3 41 
... 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

I really can't see how the 'mother' character in BP4 is someone besides Ramonda. Unless Hudlin decides to give her some other name, I'm going under the assumption that it's the same character. I mean, he's using W'Kabi, so why would he change who the mother is?(that's rhetorical....) 

Shuri 
*BP4 2-FB 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

M'Butu 
*BP4 3 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

Cannibal 
*BP4 1 
*BP4 2 
*BP4 3 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

Radioactive Man III/Igor Stancheck 
*BP4 3 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

Black Knight VIII 
*BP4 3 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 

Batroc/Georges Batroc 
CA3 30 
*BP4 3 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

Rhino 
Whatever his last appearance was... 
*BP4 3 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 

Shuri & Cannibal are likely to appear in the future, Batroc & Rhino will almost positively appear in the future. As for the rest, who knows? 

The unnamed uncle will also likely appear again in the future, but without a name... He used to be the Black Panther! Why doesn't he have a name yet? 

Uncle 
*BP4 2-FB 
*BP4 3-FB 
*BP4 4 
*BP4 5 
*BP4 6 

Seeing as how the leaders of Wakanda are Black Panthers, how should we list T'Chaka now? He was a Black Panther. Also when the Uncle gets a name, how should he be listed? What about the 5th Century Black Panther? Some suggestions: 
Black Panther/T'Chaka 
or 
T'Chaka/Black Panther 
or 
T'Chaka/Black Panther -II 

I don't think we should relegate T'Challa to 'Black Panther III' or whatever number he may be... he's the 'first' Black Panther we've seen. Also, I don't think T'Chaka should be numbered as #2 or #3, because he preceded T'Challa. So we can either ignore 'which' Black Panther T'Chaka was, or number them in negatives. Myself, I'm leaning towards T'Chaka/Black Panther as opposed to Black Panther/T'Chaka. Most people would look for him under the "T's", I would think. As for numbering, I'm not sure... Any thoughts?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2005 02:42 am    
By Col_Fury

First, thanks to SeanCurtin for pointing me in the right direction. 
Second, Im still missing a few books, some of which I have on order, some not. Books on order: BP3 26, 27, 30, & 35. Book not on order: JA 15. Books I think I can get, but not on order: BP 8, CA 100 & A 51. If anyone has JA 15, feel free to let me know what the FlashBack is. Thanks in advance. 

Some detail, in no particular order: 

Fantastic Four Unlimited, second story 
Pg1: TChalla watches the FF fly away from the first story. 
Pg2pn1-pg2pn3: TChalla finds & reads his grandfathers journal. 
All the rest is in FlashBack until otherwise noted. 
Pg2pn4-pg2pn5: A recap of previous Fritz Klaue WWII adventures, no new information. 
Pg2pn6-pg2pn7: (During WWII)Klaue in an airplane, crashes in Wakanda. 
Pg3: Chanda & his wife Nanali, with their infant son TChaka, find & nurse Klaue. Chanda tells Klaue all about Wakanda. 
Pg4: Klaue names Vibranium, then builds a large Panther Icon. 
Pg5: Klaue takes over Wakanda, Nanali dies, Chanda runs away. 
Pg6: Chanda finds & eats the heart-shaped herb. 
Pg7: Chanda attacks & skins a panther, puts on its hide. 
Pg8-pg9: Chanda returns & beats up Klaue, sending him on his way. 
Pg10pn1: Chanda holds up TChaka, saying that the Black Panther will guard Wakanda when enemies invade. 
Pg10pn2: The Panther Icon recedes into the ground, not to be seen until A 87-FB. 
Pg10pn3: Chanda tells NBaza to look after the Icon. 
Back in the present 
Pg10pn4-pg10pn7: Closing the book, TChalla comments that Klaue changed his name to Klaw, & had a son named Ulysses. 

Avengers 77-FB 
Pg5pn5: TChalla at school in Europe. 
Pg6pn1: TChalla at school in America. 

Avengers 87-FB 
Pg3-pg4: Retells FF 53-FB, redrawn panels, same dialogue, no new information. 
Pg5pn1-pg5pn2: The decision is made to send TChalla to school. 
Pg5pn3: Montage of TChalla at school. 
Pg6pn1-pg6pn3: TChalla returns to Wakanda, but he must go through the rites of ascension. 
Pg6pn4-pg6pn7: One of the rites, which is fighting a bunch of tough guys. 
Pg7pn1-pg7pn2: Theres another rite, but first you must rest! 
Pg7pn3: TChalla rests. 
Pg7pn4-pg7pn5: TChalla must now go into the Panther Icon. 
Pg8: TChalla goes in, gets the Panther suit, comes back out. 
Pg9: TChalla goes into the forest & finds the heart-shaped herb. 
Pg10-pg15: TChalla runs into some AIM guys stealing Vibranium, fights them. 
Pg16-pg19: TChallas old buddy BTumba is an agent of AIM, thats how AIM knew about the Vibranium, more fighting, BTumba dies. 

Marvel Team-Up 100, second story-FB 
Pg3pn2-pg3pn3: A young Ororo traveling Africa, she recently discovered her powers. 
Pg3pn4: She comes across a young adult TChalla, fighting a gang of white guys in safari outfits. 
Pg3pn5: Ororo flies(for the first time) to help out. 
Pg4-pg5pn2: She meets TChalla & the both of them fight DeRuyter. 
Pg5pn3: Ororo & TChalla fly off together They traveled together for a time TChallas duty took him back to Wakanda. 

Fantastic Four 53-FB 
Pg6pn2-pg6pn4: A young TChalla with TChaka. 
Pg7pn1: Klaw arrives in Wakanda. 
Pg7pn2: TChaka confronts Klaw, TChalla is not seen. 
Pg7pn3: TChalla hears gunfire, so he runs towards TChaka. 
Pg8pn1: TChalla tells the Wakandans to retreat. 
Pg8pn2: Klaw & his men shooting at Wakandans. 
Pg8pn3: TChalla finds TChaka. 
Pg8pn4: TChalla grieves over TChakas body. 
Pg8pn5: TChalla sneaks up on a guard. 
Pg8pn6: TChalla standing over unconscious guard. 
Pg9pn1: TChalla with the sound blaster, looks over the battlefield. 
Pg9pn2-pg9pn3: TChalla fires the blaster at Klaws men. 
Pg9pn4: Dialogue between TChalla & Klaw. 
Pg9pn5: TChalla fires the blaster, shattering Klaws hand. 
Pg10pn1: Klaw retreats. 

Black Panther v3, #5-FBs 
Pg8: A young TChalla encounters Hunter as the White Wolf. 
Pg9pn1-pg9pn2: TChaka as the Black Panther with Zuri fighting Klaws forces. 
Pg9pn3: TChalla, running to the battle, wanting to tell TChaka about what he saw on page 8. 
Pg9pn4: TChaka tells Zuri to take TChalla away. 
Pg10pn1-pg10pn2: Klaw charging his sound blaster, then he shoots one of his men. 
Pg10pn3: Klaw fires the blaster. 
Pg10pn4: TChalla screams Father! No! as Zuri takes him away. 
Pg11pn1: Wakandans being slaughtered. 
Pg11pn2-pg11pn4: Present day. 
Pg11pn5: Klaw tells his men to recharge the sound blaster. 
Pg12pn1: Wakandas buildings being destroyed. 
Pg12pn2: Charging the sound blaster. 
Pg12pn3: TChalla knocks out the guy guarding the sound blaster. 
Pg12pn4: Klaw giving orders. 
Pg12pn5: Klaw(after TChalla used the blaster on his men, off panel): Who are you? 
Pg13pn1-pg13pn4: TChalla uses the blaster on Klaw, shattering his hand 
Pg13pn5: Wakandans fighting back. 
Pg13pn6: Klaw retreats, redrawn panel, same dialogue, new information.(previously unseen characters) 
Pg14: TChalla at TChakas funeral 
Pg16pn2-pg16pn5: TChallas rite of ascension, new information.(fighting some tough guys, previously unseen characters) 
Pg17pn1: TChalla finds the heart-shaped herb. 
Pg17pn2: TChalla meditating in a temple. 

Black Panther v3, #6-FBs 
Pg12pn4: TChalla, as the Black Panther, is interviewing Nakia, a new member of the Dora Milaje. 
Pg14pn2-pg16: TChalla at school in America. 

Black Panther v3, #8-FB 
Pg1-pg5pn1: Recaps CA 100. New information? 
Pg5pn5-pg5pn7: Cap offers TChalla a position in the Avengers. New information? 

Black Panther v3, #10-FBs 
pg6: About 12 years before TChalla is born; An infant, orphaned Hunter is found & brought to TChaka, who decides to raise him. 
pg7pn1: Present day. 
pg7pn2: T'Chaka teaching Hunter how to hunt. 
pg7pn3: Infant T'Challa. 
pg7pn4: T'Chaka teaching T'Challa how to hunt. 
pg7pn5: Hunter is jealous, T'Chaka & T'Challa in background. 
pg7pn6-pg8pn4: Ramonda talks to a teenage Hunter, whos sad that TChalla took his place. 
Pg12pn4: TChalla at school in America. 

Black Panther v3, #12-FBs 
Pg1-pg2pn1: recap of M/CP 37, no new information. 
Pg2pn3-pg3pn3: Ramonda & a young Hunter discussing politics. 
pg3pn4: Hunter is promoted to the White Wolf. 
pg3pn5-pg3pn7: Hunter at TChakas funeral, T'Challa is seen in panel 6. 

What does all of this mean? 

TChalla does not appear in FFU 1/2-FB, so that needs to be removed from his chronology. The same goes for Ulysses Klaw. 

Also, FFU 1/2-FB would be TChakas earliest chronological appearance, seeing that hes an infant here, unless somewhere down the road we see his birth. 

Also, this means that any appearances by the WWII era Black Panther would be Chanda, not TChaka. So unless he appears as an infant in BP3 30-FB, that should be removed from his chronology as well.(I have that one on order, so Ill see for myself soon enough) 

Currently, the FlashBacks in FF 53 & BP3 5 are listed in TChallas chronology as such: 

 
FF 53-FB 
BP3 5-FB 
FF 53-FB 
 

To get a little more detailed, they could be listed as: 

 
FF 53-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg8 
FF 53-FB pg7pn1-pg7pn2 
BP3 5-FB pg9pn1-pg9pn2 
FF 53-FB pg7pn3 
BP3 5-FB pg9pn3-pg12pn2 
FF 53-FB pg8pn1-pg8pn5 
BP3 5-FB pg12pn3 
FF 53-FB pg8pn6 
BP3 5-FB pg12pn4 
FF 53-FB pg9pn1-pg9pn3 
BP3 5-FB pg12pn5 
FF 53-FB pg9pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg13pn1-pg13pn4 
FF 53-FB pg9pn5 
BP3 5-FB pg13pn5 
FF 53-FB pg10pn1 ~ BP3 5-FB pg13pn6 
BP3 5-FB pg14 
BP3 12-FB pg2pn6 
 

Or, to simplify things: 

 
FF 53-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg8 
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
BP3 5-FB pg14 
BP3 12-FB pg2pn6 
 

As far as Klaw is concerned: 

 
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 27-FB-BTS ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
 

With all of the above in mind, heres a revised chronology for TChalla: 

Black Panther/TChalla 
BP3 27-FB 
BP3 10-FB pg7-pg8 
JA 15-FB 
FF 53-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg8 
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
BP3 5-FB pg14 
BP3 12-FB pg2pn6 
A 87-FB pg5pn1-pg5pn2 
M/TU 100 1/2-FB 
?BP3 26-FB 
A 77-FB 
A 87-FB pg5pn3 
BP3 6-FB pg13pn2-pg16 
BP3 10-FB pg12pn4 
A 87-FB pg6pn1-pg6pn3 
A 87-FB pg6pn4-pg6pn7 ~ BP3 5-FB pg16pn2-pg16pn5 
A 87-FB pg7-pg9 
BP3 5-FB pg17pn1 
A 87-FB pg10-pg18 
BP3 5-FB pg17pn2 
BP4 2-FB 
BP4 3-FB 
BP3 6-FB pg12pn4 
BP3 35-FB-BTS 
BP 8-FB 
{FF 52} 
FF 53 
 
TOS 99/2 
CA 100 
A 51 
CA 100 
A 51 
CA 100 ~ BP3 8-FB pg1-pg5pn1 
BP3 8-FB pg5pn5-pg5pn7 
A 52 
 

Since I dont have the books yet, Im assuming that BP3 26-FB is TChalla in school,(or at least getting ready to go) Sean says that BP3 27-FB is TChalla as an infant, BP3 30-FB is Cap vs. BP in WWII, & BP3 35-FB-BTS possibly involves recruiting Queen Divine Justice into the Dora Milaje. Again, CA 100 & A 51 looks to be tangled, so Ill find out if theres new information in the BP3 8-FBs. JA 15-FB? I dont know, TChalla as a young boy maybe? BP 8 could involve TChalla planning to meet the Fantastic Four, or it could be TChalla as King just before that 

Oddly enough, FF 53-FB isnt currently in TChakas chronology. So 

TChaka/Black Panther 
FFU 1/2-FB 
BP3 10-FB pg6 
BP3 27-FB 
BP3 27-FB 
BP3 10-FB pg7-pg8 
{FF 53}-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 27-FB ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
BP3 5-FB pg14 
BP3 12-FB-BTS pg2pn6 

And, since thats not TChaka as the Black Panther in WWII 

Chanda/Black Panther 
FFU 1/2-FB 
BP3 30-FB 

Ramonda, it looks like, cant be the woman in BP4 2-FB. She was kidnapped as revealed in M/CP 37 when TChaka was still alive, & wasnt rescued by TChalla until after he became the Black Panther, as depicted in M/CP 37. She cant be in two places at once, so at least in BP4 2-FB, thats a different woman. 

Thats enough for now. If anyone knows what JA 15-FB is, or possibly BP 8-FB, great. Thanks again, Sean!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 25 Oct 2005 01:47 am; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 08 Oct 2005 09:30 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 27-FB ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
<<<

Flashbacks that retell events that we've already seen aren't treated as concurrent appearances ("~"). They're just...ignored. 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2005 11:01 am    
By Arthur
Director

Col_Fury wrote 
>>>
If anyone has JA 15, feel free to let me know what the FlashBack is. 
<<<


JA 15-FB 14:2 - 14:5 

T'Chaka and T'Challa - T'Challa is 10 years old. Father and son are enjoying the land ("contemplating the passage of the sun through beautiful skies") while T'Chaka gives fatherly advice to T'Challa.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2005 12:03 pm    
By Col_Fury

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Flashbacks that retell events that we've already seen aren't treated as concurrent appearances ("~"). They're just...ignored.  
<<<

Yes, that's why A 87-FB pg3-pg4 isn't listed anywhere, it retells something we've already seen with no new information. 


Quote: 
>>>
Col_Fury wrote: 
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 27-FB ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13  
<<<

I don't have BP3 27 yet, so I'm not sure if SeanCurtin's recap of "T'Chaka is struck by the sound blaster's energy" would have additional information. If not, I'll happily remove that entry.(my order should show up by the end of next week, fingers crossed, but it sounds like it doesn't have new information) Thanks for the feedback! 


Arthur wrote: 
>>>
JA 15-FB 14:2 - 14:5 

T'Chaka and T'Challa - T'Challa is 10 years old. Father and son are enjoying the land ("contemplating the passage of the sun through beautiful skies") while T'Chaka gives fatherly advice to T'Challa. 
<<<

JA 15-FB fits just fine even with the arranged FBs. Thanks Arthur!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2005 08:02 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I don't have BP3 27 yet, so I'm not sure if SeanCurtin's recap of "T'Chaka is struck by the sound blaster's energy" would have additional information. 
<<<

It's the only time that his fatal wounding is shown on panel: BP3 5-FB only shows Klaw's face as the weapon is being fired. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2005 11:34 pm    
By Col_Fury

After re-reading(again) FF 53 & BP3 5, Sean's right, we don't see T'Chaka hit by the sound blaster's energy. So I guess there is new information in BP3 27-FB. Thanks again, Sean! 

However, after taking a look at CA 100 & A 51, BP3 8-FB pg1-pg5pn1 & BP3 8-FB pg5pn5-pg5pn7 do not contain new information. They're redrawn panels with the same dialogue. So we can scratch those 'concurrent' entries I provided above, we'll just... ignore them.  

Also, I won't be able to get a copy of BP 8. There's a TPB for issues 1-7 of Jack Kirby's series, but there's not one for 8-15. I thought it was a collection of the entire run, but I was mistaken. If anyone has BP 8, what is that FB please? Thanks in advance. 

Since T'Chaka appears in JA 15-FB, here's a nice place for it to fit in his chronology: 

T'Chaka/Black Panther 
... 
BP3 10-FB-BTS pg8 
JA 15-FB 
{FF 53}-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
... 

That's it for now, thanks again for the help, guys!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2005 05:26 pm    
By bmk88

I think you mean BP 8-FB p.1-5:3 which shows a contest fight at arena for title of 'Black Panther' to choose the mighties. 
'A sacred combat to the cult of Black Panther', in which ruling Black Panther beaten some oponents, who demand another chance claiming to be undefeated, but he 'choose masked warrior for final bout'. 
Warrior beats him (quite easily) claiming the title of Black Panther. 
Audience warriors recognize his voice and take his mask off, not surprised that 'who but son of our long-slain chieftain [here reference to FF 53] could deafeat our present champion and regent'. 
Warriors shout T'Challa name calling him Black Panther. 
End of FB, next panel T'Challa flying copter returning home wondering about necessity of fight which proved he passed all test [here reference to Avengers 87] and could defeat Guardian picked to rule until he was (BP) of age. He also doubts that Guardian would fight so well if not a mask. 
I can spot no further feedbacks 
Cheers

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2005 08:59 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thank you bmk88, that's what I was looking for! 

So this FB has T'Challa after he became the Black Panther. Even with the added FBs, this fits just fine where it is, taking place after T'Challa arranged his cabinet members, then his Dora Milaje. All right! 

Now I'm just waiting for my order to arrive, so I can tie this thing off.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2005 03:40 am    
By Col_Fury

Easy stuff first: 

BP3 26-FB shows a young TChalla & a young Ororo in Africa.(youd think the cover would have given it away) This fits fine right where it is. 

BP3 35-FB is just what I thought it was earlier, recruiting Queen Divine Justice into the Dora Milaje. Again, this fits fine right where it is. 

Now the fun stuff: 

BP3 27-FBs 
Pg11pn1: Infant Hunter is being picked up at the plane crash site. This is new information, previously weve seen Hunter being held then taken to TChaka in BP3 10-FB pg6pn3-pg6pn7, but not picked up. 
Pg11pn2: TChaka teaching Hunter how to hunt elephants. This is also new information, in BP3 10-FB pg7pn2, hes being taught how to hunt leopards. Also, Hunter is older when hes hunting elephants. 
Pg11pn3: TChaka is holding the infant TChalla, slightly higher than seen in BP3 10-FB pg7pn3, Hunter watches. This has new information, Hunter is seen here where previously he was not. Also, we are told through Hunters narration over this panel that NYami died while giving birth to TChalla. 
Pg11pn4: Klaw firing his sound blaster. Redrawn panel from BP3 5-FB pg10pn3, same angle, no new information. 
Pg11pn5: TChaka & some Wakandans being hit by the sound blasters energy. Previously unseen information. 
Pg12pn1: Present day. 
Pg12pn2: Klaw giving orders, redrawn panel, same dialogue, no new information. 
Pg12pn3: TChalla firing the sound blaster, redrawn panel, same dialogue, no new information. 
Pg12pn4: Klaw being hit by the sound blasters energy, redrawn panel, same dialogue, no new information. 
Pg12pn5: Klaw fighting the Thing. Redrawn panel from FF 56 pg14pn1, different angle, no new information. 

So this leaves us with FB appearances by Hunter, TChaka, TChalla, & Klaw-BTS. 

The only panel that would affect Klaws attack on Wakanda is pg11pn5, so heres the only place for it to fit: 

 
FF 52-FB pg7pn3 
BP3 5-FB pg9pn3-pg10pn3 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn5 
BP3 5-FB pg10pn4-pg12pn2 
FF 53-FB pg8pn1-pg8pn5 
 

Or, to simplify things: 

FF 53-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg8 
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 27-FB pg11pn5 ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
BP3 5-FB pg14 
BP3 12-FB pg2pn6 

Heres an updated chronology suggestion for Klaw: 

Klaw/Ulysses Klaw 
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 27-FB-BTS pg11pn5 ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
A 87-FB-BTS 
{FF 53} 
FF 56 
 

Heres an updated chronology suggestion for Hunter: 

White Wolf/Hunter 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn1 
BP3 10-FB pg6pn3-pg7pn2 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn2-pg11pn3 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn5-pg8pn4 
BP3 12-FB pg2pn3-pg3pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg8 
BP3 12-FB pg3pn5-pg3pn7 
{BP3 4} 
 

Heres an updated chronology suggestion for Ramonda: 

Ramonda 
BP3 10-FB 
BP3 12-FB pg2pn3-pg3pn3 
M/CP 37/2-FB 
M/CP 35/2-BTS 
M/CP 36/2-BTS 
{M/CP 37/2} 
BP3 1 
 

Ramonda is only in one FB in BP3 10, so she doesnt get page/panel ranges. However BP3 12 has a redundant a FB, then a meaningful FB, so she gets page/panel ranges for that one. 

M/CP 35/2-36/2 has TChalla searching the Pretorius estate specifically to look for Ramonda. Shes there, but does not appear, & is therefore BTS. 

M/CP 37/2 shows Ramondas first appearance, where TChalla finds her. 

M/CP 37/2-FBs 
Pg12pn2: Ramondas fathers funeral. Ramonda is there, as is TChaka, but he had to leave early because the demands of being a king called him back to Wakanda. 
Pg12pn3: Ramonda joins the protests against injustice in South Africa. 
Pg12pn3: Ramonda is jailed, & picked up by Pretorius. 
Pg12pn4: Ramonda is brought to the Pretorius estate, where she was kept prisoner until TChalla found her in this issue. 

BP3 1 clarifies for us that NYami is TChallas biological mother, & Ramonda is TChallas step-mother. Of course NYami is never seen, & for the life of me I cant find a single appearance for her anywhere. Shes only ever mentioned. 

Because Ramonda was kept prisoner since TChalla was 8, & wasnt found until well after he became Black Panther, this means that Shuris mother seen in BP4 2-FB is not Ramonda, but yet another wife of TChakas. Whenever she gets a name, her chronology might look something like this: 

Shuris mother/TChakas 3rd wife 
BP4 2-FB 
BP4 5 
BP4 6 

Of course, shes not mentioned in the recent Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Marvel Knights 2005,(published Feb 2005) even though it details TChalla fighting his uncle to claim the throne of Wakanda.(BP4 2, published March, indicia May 2005) It does mention NYami, Ramonda, Chanda, & Nanali, but not this woman, Shuri, or TShan. Happily, it does name TChallas uncle: SYan. Now that we have a name: 

SYan/Black Panther 
BP4 2-FB 
BP4 3-FB 
BP4 4 
BP4 5 
BP4 6 

Also, the Handbook names the first Black Panther: Bashenga. This would be the 5th Century Black Panther, so again, now that we have a name: 

Bashenga/Black Panther 
BP4 1-FB 

Oddly enough, the BP4 FlashBack plot details made it into the Handbook, but the current day plot details did not. The Handbook entry for Black Panther ends with Avengers Disassembled, reinforcing my belief that Klaws attack on Wakanda happens after this, in the current day. 

Sadly, I was shorted BP3 30 in my order. The only listings this would affect would be TChaka, Chanda & possibly Nanali. But as I said before, unless we see TChaka as an infant that should be erased from his chronology. Keeping that in mind, heres an updated chronology suggestion for TChaka: 

TChaka/Black Panther 
FFU 1/2-FB 
BP3 10-FB pg6pn5-pg7pn2 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn2 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn3 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn3 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn4-pg7pn5 
BP3 10-FB-BTS pg7pn6-pg8pn4 
M/CP 37/2-FB 
JA 15-FB 
{FF 53}-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 27-FB pg11pn5 ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
BP3 5-FB pg14 
BP3 12-FB-BTS pg3pn5-pg3pn7 

If infant TChaka is seen in BP3 30-FB, the listing would appear between FFU 1/2-FB & BP3 10-FB pg6pn5-pg7pn3. 

TChalla is 10 years old in JA 15-FB, & he was 8 years old when Ramonda went missing. Therefore, M/CP 37/2-FB must precede JA 15-FB. 

Depending on how BP3 30-FB turns out, here's a revised chronology for Chanda: 

Chanda/Black Panther 
FFU 1/2-FB 
BP3 30-FB 
BP4 1-FB 
BP3 30-FB 

Or something like that, anyway. 

And of course, the reason for all of this research, heres an updated chronology suggestion for TChalla: 

Black Panther/TChalla 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn3 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn3 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn4-pg7pn5 
JA 15-FB 
FF 53-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg8 
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
BP3 5-FB pg14 
BP3 12-FB pg3pn6 
A 87-FB pg5pn1-pg5pn2 
M/TU 100 1/2-FB 
BP3 26-FB 
A 77-FB 
A 87-FB pg5pn3 
BP3 6-FB pg13pn2-pg16 
BP3 10-FB pg12pn4 
A 87-FB pg6pn1-pg6pn3 
A 87-FB pg6pn4-pg6pn7 ~ BP3 5-FB pg16pn2-pg16pn5 
A 87-FB pg7-pg9 
BP3 5-FB pg17pn1 
A 87-FB pg10-pg18 
BP3 5-FB pg17pn2 
BP4 2-FB 
BP4 3-FB 
BP3 6-FB pg12pn4 
BP3 35-FB-BTS 
BP 8-FB 
{FF 52} 
FF 53 
 

I do still plan on tracking down a copy of BP3 30. But if anyone has one handy, just to ease my brains, do we see any babies? Or perhaps Nanali?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 25 Oct 2005 01:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 07:39 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
Heres an updated chronology suggestion for Klaw: 

Klaw/Ulysses Klaw 
>>>
FF 53-FB pg7-pg10pn1 ~ BP3 27-FB-BTS pg11pn5 ~ BP3 5-FB pg9-pg13 
A 87-FB-BTS 
{FF 53} 
FF 56 
 
<<<

We don't use the "~" for flashbacks. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2005 01:31 pm    
By Col_Fury

Cleaning up the concurrent FB entries, here's some updated chronology suggestions: 

Klaw/Ulysses Klaw 
FF 53-FB pg7pn1-pg7pn2 
BP3 5-FB pg9pn1-pg9pn2 
FF 53-FB-BTS pg7pn3 
BP3 5-FB pg9pn3-pg10pn3 
BP3 27-FB-BTS pg11pn5 
BP3 5-FB pg10pn4-pg12pn2 
FF 53-FB pg8pn1-pg8pn5 
BP3 5-FB pg12pn3 
FF 53-FB pg8pn6 
BP3 5-FB pg12pn4 
FF 53-FB pg9pn1-pg9pn3 
BP3 5-FB pg12pn5 
FF 53-FB pg9pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg13pn1-pg13pn4 
FF 53-FB pg9pn5 
BP3 5-FB pg13pn5 
FF 53-FB pg10pn1 
BP3 5-FB pg13pn6 
A 87-FB-BTS 
{FF 53} 
FF 56 
... 

T'Chaka/Black Panther 
FFU 1/2-FB 
BP3 10-FB pg6pn5-pg7pn2 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn2 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn3 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn3 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn4-pg7pn5 
BP3 10-FB-BTS pg7pn6-pg8pn4 
M/CP 37/2-FB 
JA 15-FB 
{FF 53}-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
FF 53-FB pg7pn2 
BP3 5-FB pg9pn1-pg9pn2 
FF 53-FB-BTS pg7pn3 
BP3 5-FB pg9pn3-pg10pn3 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn5 
FF 53-FB pg8pn3-pg8pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg14 
BP3 12-FB-BTS pg3pn5-pg3pn7 

Black Panther/T'Challa 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn3 
BP3 27-FB pg11pn3 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn4-pg7pn5 
JA 15-FB 
FF 53-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg8 
FF 53-FB pg7pn3 
BP3 5-FB pg9pn3-pg10pn4 
FF 53-FB pg8pn1-pg8pn5 
BP3 5-FB pg12pn3 
FF 53-FB pg8pn6 
BP3 5-FB pg12pn4 
FF 53-FB pg9pn1-pg9pn3 
BP3 5-FB pg12pn5 
FF 53-FB pg9pn4 
BP3 5-FB pg13pn1-pg13pn4 
FF 53-FB pg9pn5 
BP3 5-FB-BTS pg13pn5 
FF 53-FB-BTS pg10pn1 
BP3 5-FB-BTS pg13pn6 
BP3 5-FB pg14 
BP3 12-FB pg3pn6 
A 87-FB pg5pn1-pg5pn2 
M/TU 100 1/2-FB 
BP3 26-FB 
A 77-FB 
A 87-FB pg5pn3 
BP3 6-FB pg13pn2-pg16 
BP3 10-FB pg12pn4 
A 87-FB pg6pn1-pg6pn5 
BP3 5-FB pg16pn2 
A 87-FB pg6pn6 
BP3 5-FB pg16pn3-pg16pn5 
A 87-FB pg6pn7-pg9 
BP3 5-FB pg17pn1 
A 87-FB pg10-pg18 
BP3 5-FB pg17pn2 
BP4 2-FB 
BP4 3-FB 
BP3 6-FB pg12pn4 
BP3 35-FB-BTS 
BP 8-FB 
{FF 52} 
FF 53 

_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2005 04:47 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

That's...impressive. 

Thanks. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 12:52 am    
By Col_Fury

Administrator wrote: 
Quote: 
That's...impressive. 

Thanks.  

You're welcome.  

The good news is, I now have a copy of BP3 30. The bad news is, it presents some problems. Here we go. 

BP3 30-FBs: 
pg1-pg5: During WWII in early 1941, Captain America arrives in Wakanda & fights the Black Panther. They call a truce & head off to the city. 
pg17pn6-pg18: Now in the city, Black Panther gives Captain America a Vibranium sample. Captain America gives Black Panther his triangular shield in return, as a show of good faith. 

References: 
This is CA's & BP's first meeting. 

Captain America mentions that America hadn't started fighting in WWII yet. 

BP of WWII is named T'Chaka in Ross' narration, & in the 'current day' Captain America refers to the WWII era Black Panther as T'Chaka, T'Challa does not correct him. Nowhere in the FBs do we see the WWII era Black Panther say "I am T'Chaka" or something to that effect. 

And since I asked; No. We don't see any babies. 

A brief recap of FFU 1/2-FB: 
During WWII, Klaue crash lands in Wakanda after an encounter with Sgt. Fury & his Howling Commandos. Chanda finds him, & we see an infant T'Chaka. 

So this happens after America started fighting in WWII, & therefore after Captain America visited Wakanda. 

A brief recap of BP4 1-FB(WWII): 
1944, Captain America enters Wakanda searching for Nazis who were out to exploit Wakandan science. Black Panther had already dealt with them, but Cap didn't know that when he arrived. They got into a fight, & Cap lost. 

Nazis looking to exploit Wakandan science sounds an awfully lot like the plot from FFU 1/2-FB. 

This would give us this order of events: 
BP3 30-FB: Early 1941. 
FFU 1/2-FB: Later, after America joined in on WWII. 
BP4 1-FB: 1944, shortly after Klaue left Wakanda. 

BP4 1-FB is not a retelling of BP3 30-FB, as I thought earlier. 

Also, the recent Marvel Knights handbook lists Chanda as being T'Challa's grandfather, but does not mention any WWII adventures. Since FFU 1/2-FB reveals T'Challa's lineage, the handbook seems to support this, as opposed to BP3 30-FB. 

So where does this leave us? 

Wakanda has always been a reclusive country, & T'Challa tries to continue this when he can. I'm willing to chalk up T'Challa's reluctance to correct Cap to his inherent secretiveness. Cap could not have known T'Chaka, beacuase T'Chaka was an infant during WWII, Cap was frozen at the end of it, & was thawed out in the 'current day.' T'Chaka was killed by Klaw ten years before FF 53, which would mean that T'Chaka died well before Cap was thawed out. Therefore, we have to ignore the T'Chaka name-dropping in BP3 30-FB. 

Chanda must have been playing along with Klaue in FFU 1/2-FB to see if he were an honorable man. He had already met the American representative from the war, now here's a German. Sadly, this was a bad move on Chanda's part. 

Also, this would give us a good reason(If we even needed one) for Cap to fight Black Panther in WWII. Cap shows up looking for Nazis, finds them all dead, then gets into a fight with Black Panther over moral issues. Black Panther didn't feel the need to explain to Cap that they died in a plane crash, & that the beheadings were ceremonial. Besides, he can run his country any way he feels like it, & he was probably still grieving the death of his wife, Nanali. Yes they met before & parted on good terms, but this would be a believable 'fight catalyst.'(again, if we even needed a rationale. This is the Chronology Project, not the Motivation Project) 

With the above information, here's some suggested chronology placements: 

Chanda/Black Panther 
BP3 30-FB 
FFU 1/2-FB 
BP4 1-FB 

Yes, Cap is using a triangular shield in BP4 1-FB, but he could be using the one he left behind in BP3 30-FB. 

As for BP3 30-FB in Cap's chronology, I'll save that for a different topic.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 67

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: M/CP 125/4-132/4: Iron Fist
By Col_Fury

M/CP 125/4: Iron Fist 
the Book of Changes pt 1 
Under Lock and Key 
W: Joey Cavalieri 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: April 1993 

Appearances: Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Cmdr. Martina Tereshkova, Dr. Faro, Skeleton Ki, Randy Oberlin, some Hydra guys. 

Intro: 
Since Daniel Rand returned from a near-death experience, hes done his best to pick up his life where he left off. However, certain elements have compromised his company, Rand-Meachum, in his absence. 

Synopsis: 
Rand-Meachum has a 24 hour security detail guarding an anomaly they found. Skeleton Ki arrives to steal it, the security detail doesnt do much good. 
Meanwhile, Iron Fist is training with Randy Oberlin. The alarm sounds and they go to check it out. Iron Fist & Skeleton Ki fight, then a group of Hydra agents arrives to retrieve the anomaly. Iron Fist stops them. 

References: 
The near-death experience could either be referring to his return in Namor 23, or his recent M/CP story where he & Ghost Rider go to a hell-like dimension & get their flesh ripped off. Either way, this takes place some time after that, whichever it was, because Dannys been trying to live his life like normal. So after it, but not too close. 

All in one night, full moon. 

M/CP 126/4: Iron Fist 
the Book of Changes pt 2 
a Mystery Wrapped in a Puzzle Inside an Enigma 
W: Joey Cavalieri 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: April 1993 

Appearances: Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Cmdr. Martina Tereshkova, Dr. Faro, Skeleton Ki, Randy Oberlin, Misty Knight, some AIM guys. 

Synopsis: 
Iron Fist is interrogating an imprisoned Skeleton Ki when some AIM agents show up and take him away. Misty Knight arrives & Iron Fist accuses her & everyone else of being security leaks, then he leaves. 

References: 
Same night as last issue. 

M/CP 127/4: Iron Fist 
the Book of Changes pt 3 
the Superior Man 
W: Joey Cavalieri 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: May 1993 

Appearances: Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Took, Warrant, Lillian Hsu. 

Synopsis: 
The next day, Iron Fist visits an old friend at Empire State University. They talk, then Iron Fist leaves with Tooks assistant Lillian. Theyre then attacked by Warrant. 

References: 
All in one day, the day after last issue. 

M/CP 128/4: Iron Fist 
the Book of Changes pt 4 
the Evil Eye 
W: Joey Cavalieri 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: May 1993 

Appearances: Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Warrant, Lillian Hsu, Doug Hsu, Cool Million. 

Synopsis: 
Iron Fist defeats Warrant with Lillians help, they go back to her place where he spends the night. 
The next morning, Iron Fist plays basketball with Lillians brother Doug. Iron Fist leaves to go to a junkyard. Cool Million is spying on Lillian. 

References: 
Pg1-4, same day as last issue. 
Pg5-8, the next morning. 

M/CP 129/4: Iron Fist 
the Book of Changes pt 5 
Friendship Rears its Ugly Head 
W: Joey Cavalieri 
D: Bill Wylie/Chris Renkewitz 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: Iron Fist(Danny Rand), the Mechanic, Lillian Hsu, Doug Hsu, Cool Million, Baron Strucker, some Hydra guys. 

Synopsis: 
At the junkyard, Iron Fist has the Mechanic run some tests on the anomaly. 
Cool Million kidnaps Lillian, Doug follows. They show up at the junkyard, Cool Million defeats Iron Fist. They get in his car & rendezvous with Hydra, where Baron Strucker is waiting for them. 

References: 
Same day as last issue. 

Baron Strucker is wearing a standard Hydra uniform here, which would put this at least before Nick Fury 42, where hes wearing a new uniform & complaining that other agents arent yet, so also before Silver Sable 11. 

M/CP 130/4: Iron Fist 
the Book of Changes pt 6 
the Meaning of Life 
W: Joey Cavalieri 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Lillian Hsu, Doug Hsu, Baron Strucker, some Hydra guys. 

Synopsis: 
Baron Strucker throws Iron Fist, Lillian, & Doug into the Living Room the room that lives! After it tries to eat them, they escape to find Baron Strucker now has two anomalies. 

References: 
Same day as last issue. 

M/CP 131/4: Iron Fist 
the Book of Changes pt 7 
Yin and Yang 
W: Joey Cavalieri 
D: Dave Hoover 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Lillian Hsu, Doug Hsu, Baron Strucker, some Hydra guys. 

Synopsis: 
Iron Fist, Lillian, & Doug escape from Hydra! 

References: 
Same day as last issue. 

M/CP 132/4: Iron Fist 
the Book of Changes pt 8 
all Debts Forgotten, all Sins Forgiven 
W: Joey Cavalieri 
D: Fred Haynes 
Published: July 1993 

Appearances: Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Lillian Hsu, Doug Hsu, the Contemplator(That Ki, Mister Buda). 

Synopsis: 
The Contemplator appears from within the anomalies, and recaps the previous seven issues for Iron Fist, then goes away. The End. 

References: 
Same day as last issue. 

Yes, thats how it ends. Seriously. 

The whole thing lasts 3 days. 
Day 1: 125, 126 
Day 2: 127, 128 -pg4 
Day 3: 128 pg5-, 129, 130, 131, 132 

Some suggested chronology placements: 

Iron Fist/Daniel Rand 
... 
N 34 
*M/CP 125/4 
*M/CP 126/4 
*M/CP 127/4 
*M/CP 128/4 
*M/CP 129/4 
*M/CP 130/4 
*M/CP 131/4 
*M/CP 132/4 
N@ 3/2 
... 

Baron Strucker/Wolfgang Von Strucker 
... 
NS 4 
*M/CP 129/4 
*M/CP 130/4 
*M/CP 131/4 
SSWP 11 
... 

Contemplator/That Ki/Mister Buda [Elder] 
... 
Q 40 
*M/CP 132/4 
IF2 1 

Knight, Misty 
... 
N 34 
*M/CP 126/4 
DLOK2 26 
... 

Tereshkova, Cmdr. Martina 
*M/CP 125/4 
*M/CP 126/4 

Dr. Faro 
*M/CP 125/4 
*M/CP 126/4 

Oberlin, Randy 
*M/CP 125/4 
*M/CP 126/4 

Skeleton Ki 
*M/CP 125/4 
*M/CP 126/4 

Took 
*M/CP 127/4 

Warrant 
*M/CP 127/4 
*M/CP 128/4 

Hsu, Lillian 
*M/CP 127/4 
*M/CP 128/4 
*M/CP 129/4 
*M/CP 130/4 
*M/CP 131/4 
*M/CP 132/4 

Hsu, Doug 
*M/CP 128/4 
*M/CP 129/4 
*M/CP 130/4 
*M/CP 131/4 
*M/CP 132/4 

Cool Million 
*M/CP 128/4 
*M/CP 129/4 

Mechanic 
*M/CP 129/4 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 68

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 02:06 am    Post subject: M/CP 133/3-136/3: Iron Fist
By Col_Fury

M/CP 133/3: Iron Fist 
Depths of Despair pt 1 
Opening Gambit 
W: Tony Matias 
D: Fred Haynes 
Published: July 1993 

Appearances: 
Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Sabretooth(Victor Creed), Mr. Shiro, some ninjas. 

Synopsis: 
Iron Fist, Misty Knight, & Colleen Wing fight some ninjas. 
Mr. Shiro hires Sabretooth to kill Carl Powers. 

References: 
All in one night, we see a full moon. 

M/CP 134/3: Iron Fist 
Depths of Despair pt 2 
a Fall from Grace 
W: Tony Matias 
D: Fred Haynes 
Published: August 1993 

Appearances: 
Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Sabretooth(Victor Creed), Carl Powers, some ninjas, some FBI guys. 

Synopsis: 
Still fighting ninjas. 
Sabretooth kills the FBI guys guarding Carl Powers, takes him away. 
They finally defeat those ninjas. 

References: 
Same night as before. 

M/CP 135/3: Iron Fist 
Depths of Despair pt 3 
Back and Forward 
W: Tony Matias 
D: Fred Haynes 
Published: August 1993 

Appearances: 
Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Sabretooth(Victor Creed), Carl Powers, Senpai, some ninjas. 

Synopsis: 
Iron Fist, Misty Knight, & Colleen Wing are looking for Carl Powers in the sewers when theyre attacked by ninjas! Sabretooth is with them, and he has Carl Powers. Senpai(leader of the ninjas) arrives, she says that Carl Powers is worthless & that they can keep him. 

References: 
Same night as before. 

M/CP 136/3: Iron Fist 
Depths of Despair pt 4 
Back to the Beginning 
W: Tony Matias 
D: Fred Haynes 
Published: September 1993 

Appearances: 
Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Sabretooth(Victor Creed), Carl Powers. 

Synopsis: 
Iron Fist & Sabretooth fight in the sewers, Iron Fist wins. Iron Fist, Misty Knight, & Colleen Wing leave with Carl Powers. 

References: 
Same night, we see a full moon again. 

After that exciting story, herere some suggested chronology placements: 

Iron Fist/Daniel Rand 
... 
PPTSS 203 
*M/CP 133/3 
*M/CP 134/3 
*M/CP 135/3 
*M/CP 136/3 
S-M 41 
... 

Knight, Misty 
... 
DLOK2 27 
*M/CP 133/3 
*M/CP 134/3 
*M/CP 135/3 
*M/CP 136/3 
ASMU 13 
... 

Wing, Colleen 
... 
N 43 
*M/CP 133/3 
*M/CP 134/3 
*M/CP 135/3 
*M/CP 136/3 
ASMU 13 
... 

Sabretooth, Victor Creed 
... 
DHOLD 4 
*M/CP 133/3 
*M/CP 134/3 
*M/CP 135/3 
*M/CP 136/3 
SABRE 1 
... 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 69

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:33 am    Post subject: M/CP 133/4: Cloak & Dagger
By Col_Fury

M/CP 133/4: Cloak & Dagger 
"Nocturnal Cravings" 
W: Chuck Kim 
D: Walter McDaniels 
Published: July 1993 

Appearances: 
Cloak & Dagger(Tyrone Johnson & Tandy Bowen), Tessa(not Sage). 

Synopsis: 
Cloak & Dagger are looking for a serial killer who kills runaways. After spitting some thugs out of his cloak, Cloak suggests they look in Central Park for clues. After they leave, Tessa(a vampire) sucks the thugs' blood. 
A few hours later, Tessa fools Cloak & Dagger to go into a building. She tries to bite Cloak, but he sucks her into his cloak instead. Dagger gets her out, and they decide to take her to Dr. Strange. 

References: 
All in one night, a full moon is seen. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Cloak/Tyrone Johnson 
... 
NW 35 
*M/CP 133/4 
NW 48 
... 

Dagger/Tandy Bowen 
... 
NW 35 
*M/CP 133/4 
NW 48 
... 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 70

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:48 am    Post subject: M/CP 135/4: Black Widow
By Col_Fury

M/CP 135/4: Black Widow 
"Legacy" 
W: Mindy Newell 
D: John Stanisci 
Published: August 1993 

Appearances: 
Black Widow(Natasha Romanova), some cops, some ex-KGB guys. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg3pn6: Monday, 3:30 AM; Black Widow finds an old woman murdered, then runs into some cops. There's a serial killer about... 
pg3pn7-pg4: Tuesday, 4:30 PM; Black Widow talks to a friend of the dead woman. 
pg5: Wednesday, 1:15 PM; Black Widow at the beach, orders a hot dog. 
pg6: Friday, 7:30 PM; Black Widow gets information. 
pg7-pg8: Saturday, 8:30 AM; Black Widow confronts the serial killer, a hot dog vendor. He grabs a baby & thows it, Black Widow catches & saves it. He's taken away by the cops. 

There're no references besides the days & times above. 

Black Widow/Natasha Romanova 
... 
SLEEP 27 
*M/CP 135/4 
A@ 22 
... 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 71

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 04:00 am    Post subject: M/CP 136/4: Daredevil
By Col_Fury

M/CP 136/4: Daredevil 
"the Prisoner" 
W: Ul Higgins 
D: Mark Powers 
Published: September 1993 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), a guy in jail. 

Synopsis: 
pg1: A guy in jail who really hates Daredevil. 
pg2-pg6-FB: Daredevil apprehends the guy that we saw in jail on page one. 
pg7: The guy was supposed to be released today, but Daredevil has sent the warden new information that will keep this guy in jail for another ten years. 
pg8: The same guy still in jail, & now he really hates Daredevil. 

References: 
Daredevil never appears in the 'current day,' but he sent information 'a few minutes ago,' so he gets a BTS listing. 

The guy has been in jail for a few years, therefore the FlashBack is also a few years ago. 

It's snowing in NYC in the FlashBack, with Daredevil's standard status quo. Daredevil only got his law degree back in DD 300, so a few years before 'now' would probably be before "Born Again." Luckily, it's winter during these Daredevil issues. We see snow in DD 227, and there's a Christmas tree in Peter Parker 110, so... 

Daredevil/Matt Michael Murdock 
... 
PPTSS 110 
*M/CP 136/4-FB 
DD 227 
... 
DD@ 9/2 
*M/CP 136/4-BTS 
DD 319 
... 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 72

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 07:44 am    Post subject: M/CP 132-136: Wolverine
By Col_Fury

M/CP 132: Wolverine 
Brother in Arms pt 1 
Trouble in Paradise 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: July 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Kayla, Cyber, Bloodshadow, Fetish, Vex, Satyr. 

Synopsis: 
Wolverine is on vacation in Koma Koi, when a young woman who is being chased by the Coven comes his way. Wolverine drives them off. 
That night at Kaylas hut, she informs him that after their extracurricular activities shes passed her mark on to him, and that the Coven will be after him now, instead of her. He puts on his suit. 
Cyber & the Coven talk about Wolverine & Kaylas activities... those dirty Peeping Toms. 

References: 
Wolverine has been on Koma Koi isle for one day. 

In addition to his chops, Wolverine has grown in his beard. He doesnt need to shave hes one vacation! 

M/CP 133: Wolverine 
Brother in Arms pt 2 
Alone Against the Coven 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: July 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Cyber, Bloodshadow, Fetish, Vex, Satyr. 

Synopsis: 
Wolverine infiltrates the Covens temple to get a gemstone called the Tear of Heaven. He starts a fight(instead of being sneaky) because theyve interrupted his vacation. Bloodshadow knocks him unconscious, & when he wakes up he finds himself chained to Cyber. 

References: 
Same night as last issue. 

M/CP 134: Wolverine 
Brother in Arms pt 3 
Chain Reaction 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: August 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Cyber, Bloodshadow, Fetish, Vex, Satyr, Kayla. 

Synopsis: 
Wolverine & Cyber fight while the Coven watches, then they gas the both of them. 
Kayla meets her followers in their temple. 
Wolverine & Cyber wake up strapped to a slab, theyre being lowered into a vat of acid. 

References: 
Same night as last issue. 

M/CP 135: Wolverine 
Brother in Arms pt 4 
Off the Cuff 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: August 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Cyber, Bloodshadow, Fetish, Vex, Satyr, Kayla. 

Synopsis: 
Falling into the acid, Cyber frees himself & Wolverine. Satyr attacks, so they knock him into the acid. In the confusion, they get the Tear of Heaven & take off for the sun temple. Fetish attempts to heal Satyr, the rest of the Coven follow Wolverine & Cyber, who are still chained together.(with an adamantium chain, of course) At the Sun Temple, Cyber knocks Wolverine out as the Coven approach. 

References: 
Same night as last issue, almost midnight Koma Koi time. 

M/CP 136: Wolverine 
Brother in Arms pt 5 
Cats Game 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Steve Lightle 
Published: September 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Cyber, Bloodshadow, Vex, Kayla. 

Synopsis: 
The Coven attack while Wolverine & Cyber fight. The Coven enter the temple, Wolverine kills Bloodshadow while Cyber kills Vex. Wolverine then attacks Cyber again, gets the key to the chain from him, then Cyber falls into a chasm. Wolverine lights a cigar. 

References: 
Same night as last issue. 

I have to say that this was a really fun story. Of course I like anything Steve Lightle does, but this was just a fun read. Its Wolverine on vacation! With a beard! Whats not to like? That said, herere some relaxing vacation-themed chronology placement suggestions: 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
 
X 23 
*M/CP 132 
*M/CP 133 
*M/CP 134 
*M/CP 135 
*M/CP 136 
W2 72 
 

Cyber 
 
XF 81 
*M/CP 132 
*M/CP 133 
*M/CP 134 
*M/CP 135 
*M/CP 136 
W2 79-FB 
 

Kayla 
M/CP 132 
M/CP 134 
M/CP 135 
M/CP 136 

Bloodshadow 
M/CP 132 
M/CP 133 
M/CP 134 
M/CP 135 
M/CP 136 

Fetish 
M/CP 132 
M/CP 133 
M/CP 134 
M/CP 135 

Vex 
M/CP 132 
M/CP 133 
M/CP 134 
M/CP 135 
M/CP 136 

Satyr 
M/CP 132 
M/CP 133 
M/CP 134 
M/CP 135 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 73

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:41 am    Post subject: M/CP 134/4: Major Victory
By Col_Fury

M/CP 134/4: Major Victory 
"True Love" 
W: Mariano Nicieza 
D: Freddy Mendez 
Published: August 1993 

Appearances: 
Major Victory(Vance Astrovik), Nikki-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Major Victory has crash landed on an alien world. He finds an injured human red-head, she warns him of danger. He finds a group of humans with weapons, then a Badoon attacks! It's revealed that the group are ex-Badoon slaves, and they're out to kill all Badoon. The woman & the Badoon that attacked are a couple. What will Vance do? 
He beats up the group of ruffians, just in time to be teleported away... the Guardians have found him. 

References: 
The Guardians of the Galaxy defeated the Badoon 'months ago.' 

This takes place in the future, so I can't really suggest any placements. The only listings that I can find for Vance here in the MCP are in the 'present.'
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 10:40 am    
By ShadZ

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
This takes place in the future, so I can't really suggest any placements. The only listings that I can find for Vance here in the MCP are in the 'present.' 
<<<

The Killraven/Guardians of the Galaxy future has its own chronology page here: http://www.chronologyproject.com/killraven.htm Currently, it seems to only have Killraven characters, but I remeber at one time it had a start on the GotG characters (or am I crazy)?
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Thread 74

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 12:02 pm    Post subject: Marvel Monsters: Monsters on the Prowl
By SKleefeld
Director

The Collector has evidently collected narly all of the old Atlas monsters in his hidden lair beaneath the surface of Canada. The Mole Man, jealous of the collection -- I kid you not, it says he's jealous -- attacks and inadvertently lets all of the Collector's monster escape. 

Meanwhile, Bruce Banner staggers to the Baxter Building and asks to be let in and maybe for a bite to eat. Ben's the only one home (Johnny and Sue are doing charity work in LA; Reed is doing some experiments in the Negative Zone) and lets him up. They chat and eat a bit before a newscast alerts them to a slew of monsters attacking the city. Bruce suggests that the X-Men or Avengers can handle it, but Ben says Captain America had sent a message about the Avengers being in Moscow, and the X-Men "are in some jungle." Spider-Man hasn't even been seen lately. Ben decides it's up to the two of them and starts flicking Bruce's nose until he turns into the Hulk. 

"Ten minutes and a couple phone calls later" the Thing and Hulk arrive downtown and start brawling with the monsters. During the fight, we get a two-page newscast to announce the names of all the monsters to the reader. (It's a little jarring visually, but I appreciate that they bothered to include at least a passing reference to the creatures' prior stories.) 

Suddenly, Beast and Giant-Man show up. The four of them continue pummeling the Atlas monsters until they're all unconscious. The Beast calls up Reed on the Fantasticar that Ben had used to get downtown. Beast and Mr. Fantastic (working remotely from the Negative Zone) kit-bash the Fantasticar to make a portal that will allow Reed to return to Earth and send the monsters into the Negative Zone. 

Ben then offers to take the Hulk out for some six-foot party subs. 

Appearances by: Beast, Giant-Man, Hulk, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Mole Man, Collector, Chip Wicker (the newscaster), Taboo, Grottu, Groot, Vandoom's monster (cited in the book simply as Vandoom), Gargantus, Rommbu, Grogg. There's also some ape/bat thing that I don't recognize and isn't named; an unnamed dragon-like creature who looks a LOT like Fin Fang Foom, but is colored orange; and another monster that looks suspiciously like Googam. 

As far as placement goes, this seems to occur over a very short period of time. However, we've got a lot of chronological things that make this difficult to place. 

First, we've got Giant-Man, which places this either before A 27 or sometime between A 368 and A3 25. Then we've got Beast in his original X-Men uniform, which I believe places him before X-Men #39. 

Then, we have Reed Richards exploring the Negative Zone through much of this issue. While he discovered it earlier, his first exploration of the Negative Zone is FF 51, in which he wears breathing apparatus. Since he isn't shown wearing any here, I have to believe that this must occur AFTER that instance. Were it earlier, Reed would have known that the atmo was breathable and, thus, wouldn't have bothered wearing any breathing apparatus in his sojourn in that issue. 

That makes things VERY tight chronologically already! It almost has to occur immediately after FF 51, because Giant-Man switches to Goliath shortly afterwards. We're also on the verge of the Collector's first appearance in A 28. This might, then, be a good impetus for him to start up with the Avengers, as he's just lost this substanial collection of monsters in this issue. 

Now, here's a few wrinkles. 

First, the Collector claims that HE was the reason all the Atlas monsters suddenly disappeared. This somewhat contradicts Fin Fang Four where the Fantastic Four are given credit for much of that. I'm going to have to assume that Collector is ranting for the sake of ranting, and his specific terminology isn't entirely accurate. 

Next, the newscaster -- when running through the list of monsters attacking the city -- says, "And here you are seeing Grottu, once known as the king of the insects! If I recall, the Fantastic Four once battled this hideous creature before it too disappeared." Well, the FF did indeed battle Grottu... in Fantastic Four Unlimited #7 circa 1997! That clearly is at odds with the rest of this story's Silver Age tone and feel, so I think we're either going to have to chalk this up to either A) an imperfect memory on the part of the newscaster, B) a reference to a completely untold story, or C) a reference to a behind-the-scenes capture based loosely off some of the comments in Fin Fang Four. 

Okay, then we have Ben Grimm knowing Bruce Banner's alter ego. I don't have a good explanation/solution for this. I don't have a problem with Ben knowing who Bruce is -- they did meet in FF 12 -- and I can even buy into Ben knowing that Bruce and Hulk are the same person -- it wouldn't take much for Reed to figure it out and explain it to the team. But then we have the problem: if Ben knows about Bruce that early in their careers, why would neither of them acknowledge that fact in any way for all of their subsequent meetings (until Bruce takes his identity public)? It's one of those "absence of evidence does not equate to actual evidence" things, but it is a bit awkward. 

That all said, I'm thinking this should get dropped in right afer FF 51 for Reed and Ben, and right before A 27 for Giant-Man and Collector. I'm not 100% sure about Beast's or Hulk's exact placements, but my guestimate would be somewhere around UX 27 and TTA 91/2 respectively.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 01:08 pm    
By Somebody

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
an unnamed dragon-like creature who looks a LOT like Fin Fang Foom, but is colored orange 
<<<

The reprint of FFF's first appearance in FinFangFour has him orange there. Also, I think that when the Midgard Serpent used the guise in Thor, he was orange.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:10 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Okay, then we have Ben Grimm knowing Bruce Banner's alter ego. I don't have a good explanation/solution for this. I don't have a problem with Ben knowing who Bruce is -- they did meet in FF 12 -- and I can even buy into Ben knowing that Bruce and Hulk are the same person -- it wouldn't take much for Reed to figure it out and explain it to the team. But then we have the problem: if Ben knows about Bruce that early in their careers, why would neither of them acknowledge that fact in any way for all of their subsequent meetings (until Bruce takes his identity public)? 
<<<

The recent "Hulk/Thing: Hard Knocks" miniseries reveals that Ben Grimm discovered Bruce Banner was the Hulk immediately after their first battle in FF 12. Yes, that still contradicts other issues published before the period where it was public knowledge that the Hulk and Banner were the same person, but "Hard Knocks" at least makes "Monsters on the Prowl" somewhat explainable...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:41 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

You'll forgive me if I slip on some of the details from that -- I'm trying to forget that book was ever published. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:58 pm    
By Enda80

Mistakes made by characters; the monster gets called Van Doom. However, Van Doom serves as the name of the monster's creator. Frankenstein vs. Frankenstein Monster. 

That said, Van Doom's Creature has made many sight gag appearances on Monster Isle before this issue, so I am glad to see an unambigous reference. 

Groot was also seen on Monster Isle in Marvel Swimsuit Special. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/vandoomm.htm 

As I recall 

Taboo was returned to his home planet and cured of his dementia in a sequel. 

Groot was eaten by termites. 

Vandoom's Creature was rendered inert. 

Grottu was rendered inert. 

Grogg was left on Mars. 

So, quite a bit had to happen BTS.

			*	*	*

Thread 75

Posted: 06 Oct 2005 03:07 am    Post subject: Black Panther vol 4, #7: HoM
By Col_Fury

Black Panther vol4 #7- HoM 
Soul Power in the House of M 
W: Reginald Hudlin 
D: Trevor Hairsine 
Published: October, 2005 

Appearances: 
Quicksilver, Storm, Magneto, Dazzler, Black Panther, Sabretooth, Apocalypse, Namor, Sunfire, Iceman, Angel, Nightcrawler, Shanna the She-Devil, Black Bolt, Monica Lynn. 
In hologram-Victor Von Doom. 

Intro Page: 
A united Africa - ruled over by Queen Ororo & King TChalla - has become an economic powerhouse, and a horn in Magnetos side. You see, one of that continents rulers - Storm - has been speaking out against the persistence of supremacist notions in the mutant-controlled world something Magneto simply cant abide. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-3: Tsavo West, Kenya; 
Quicksilver is delivering ice cream from Tuscany, Italy to Storm unexpectedly. Hes trying to win her affections, Storm reminds him that shes with TChalla. He reminds her of TChallas harem, then leaves. 
Pg4: Magnetos Palace, Genosha; 
Quicksilver & Magneto discuss Quicksilvers inability to woo Storm. Magneto asks if Quicksilver has seen Storms appearance on TV yesterday. 
Pg5-6: 
Magneto & Quicksilver watch yesterdays episode of Alison that Storm was on, which shows Storm questioning mutant superiority. Magneto & Quicksilver argue over the topics raised, & mention that Africas superior technology may threaten mutant rule 'in a decade.' Magneto says Since you failed at undoing their romance - - Ill do it my way. 
Pg7: Wakanda; 
TChalla & Storm discuss their relationship through a holo-phone call. Monica Lynn & Shanna the She-Devil are mentioned as being in TChallas harem. 
Pg8-11: 
After Storm hangs up, Sabretooth teleports in & Black Panther shoots him. Sabretooth has been hired to kill Black Panther as a message to Storm. They fight, & Black Panther decapitates Sabretooth. 
Pg12: Magnetos Palace, Genosha; 
Quicksilver opens a box to find Sabretooths head inside. Quicksilver mentions that the box arrived today, & that the Black Panther must have used the transporter we gave Sabretooth. Magneto is pissed. 
Pg13: Wakanda; 
Black Panther is talking to Sunfire, Namor, Victor Von Doom, & Storm on a holo-phone conference call, called the Council of Kings. They discuss whether to stand together now that Magneto has tried to kill TChalla, because theyre assuming that Magneto may now try to kill the rest of them. Doom declines & hangs up. 
Pg14: Cairo, Egypt; 
A smack-talkin Apocalypse is watching a pyramid being built, Magneto sends him after Black Panther. 
Pg15-19: Wakanda; 
Apocalypse, in his airplane, is flying to Wakanda when his pilots inform him that Storm is attacking. The plane crashes into water. Namor rips the plane open & throws Apocalypse out. He grows gills & hits Namor, sending him out of the water, where Iceman freezes him. Iceman is then attacked by Storm, & then Sunfire. Storm refers to Iceman as one of Apocalypses horsemen. Off to the side, Angel & Nightcrawler argue about getting involved in the fight.(theyre on Apocalypses/Magnetos side) 
Pg20-22: 
Apocalypse enters the Panthers Castle, & off to the side we see Monica Lynn & Shanna the She-Devil get into a fight over whos TChallas current girlfriend. Chasing Black Panther, Apocalypse runs into Black Bolt who blows him away with a syllable. Black Panther was hiding in a Vibranium box. Storm, Sunfire, & Namor arrive. Magneto & Quicksilver are seen on the last panel, unhappy about how the assassination attempt turned out. 

References: 
The entire issue takes place in the HoM. Theres no burn to white, its already there. 

Yesterdays episode of Alison. It was aired yesterday, but when was it filmed? Are talk shows live? Im guessing that at least Alison would have to be, because Storm voiced some unpopular political opinions on the air. If it was a taped show, they could have edited around some of the more sensitive topics. So Storms appearance on Alison was the previous day, being a live show. 

Angel & Nightcrawler are both seen in their 616 uniforms, but in HoM proper Nightcrawler is wearing a SHIELD uniform.(however, Sunfires clothing matches his appearances in New X-Men: Academy Xs HoM issues) Also, Nightcrawler asks Angel Why did you even volunteer for this mission?, suggesting that theyre both in SHIELD. Perhaps theyre in undercover uniforms, because this is an assassination attempt? If they were seen in SHIELD uniforms, Magneto could be implicated. 

In response to Nightcrawlers question, Angel says Ive got a little P.R. problem some girl released a videotape of me and her a reference to the issue of the Pulse published by Marvel, some of which was seen in HoM #3. There was a hot list that mentioned Angels sex scandal. Hes at the not-so-hot end, suggesting that the scandal has been in the news for a while now. 

Doom doesnt want to team up with anybody, which is par for him, but it *could* mean that this takes place before Fantastic Four: HoM 1-3, where Doom has his own plans for Magneto. 

There is no mention of the gala event seen in HoM 6 in this issue, & Storm is only seen getting ready for and going to the gala event in HoM 2 & 6. TChalla is also seen at the event in HoM #6, but he & Storm do not go together. The corrosive weather pattern mentioned in HoM 6 is passed off as if its almost a daily occurrence, so we can assume that it isnt necessarily referring to BP4 7, & possibly the reason that Storm & TChalla arent appearing together at the gala event. Also seen at the event in HoM 6 is Namor & Doom, Doom & Magneto mention to each other surprise at being invited/showing up, suggesting that HoM 1-6 takes place after Fantastic Four: HoM 1-3. 

Its daytime in Kenya, late afternoon in Genosha the same day, nighttime in Wakanda that night. Morning in Genosha the next day, then nighttime in Wakanda. Morning in Egypt the next day, dusk, then night in Wakanda. No moons or suns visible. All day breaks are clean page breaks, no messy panels to fool around with. If it matters, Storm's TV appearance is from pg5pn1 to pg6pn2. This would give us: 

Day 1: Storm on Alison. 
Day 2: Quicksilver visits Storm, Sabretooth attacks Black Panther. 
Day 3: Quicksilver finds Sabretooths head, the Council of Kings that night. 
Day 4: Apocalypse goes from Egypt to Wakanda. 

With all of that in mind, heres some HoM placement suggestions: 

Black Panther/TChalla 
 
BP4 7 
HoM 6 
 

Storm/Ororo Munroe 
 
BP4 7-FB 
BP4 7 
HoM 2 
HoM 6 
 

Dazzler/Alison Blaire 
 
BP4 7-FB 
HoM 2 
 

Sub-Mariner/Namor MacKenzie 
 
BP4 7 
HoM 6 
 

Nightcrawler/Kurt Wagner 
 
BP4 7 
HoM 3 
HoM 5 
HoM 6 
 

Magneto/Magnus/Eric Lensherr 
 
HoM 1 
BP4 7 
FF: HoM 1 
FF: HoM 2 
FF: HoM 3 
HoM 4 
HoM 5 
HoM 6 
 

Quicksilver/Pietro Maximoff 
 
HoM 1 
BP4 7 
FF: HoM 1 
FF: HoM 2 
FF: HoM 3 
HoM 6 
 

Doctor Doom/Victor Von Doom 
 
BP4 7 
FF: HoM 1 
FF: HoM 2 
FF: HoM 3 
HoM 6 
 

Im not entirely sure how BP4 7 fits in with New X-Men: Academy X for Sunfire yet, Im afraid. Any suggestions would be appreciated. 

Everyone else appearing in this issue doesnt pop up anywhere else in HoM yet, as far as I can tell. 

As always, feel free to comment or contradict. If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 29 Oct 2005 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 06 Oct 2005 06:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Im not entirely sure how BP4 7 fits in with New X-Men: Academy X for Sunfire yet, Im afraid. Any suggestions would be appreciated. 
<<<


I think that once HOM is over, we'll have to start a thread that lays out the entire chronology of this crossover event. 

Thanks for the analysis, Col_Fury. Another one of the list!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Oct 2005 12:22 pm    
By JD

Personnally, I'm very tempted to place Storm's appearances a bit later. 

I'm working on the assumption that the day depicted in HOM 2 (as well as in bits of HOM 1 & 3) is the first day after the big change. Having four days of Storm appearances before that seems a bit much. 

I propose this : 
Storm/Ororo Munroe 
 
BP4 7-FB 
HoM 2 
BP4 7 
HoM 6 
 

or, possibly : 
Storm/Ororo Munroe 
 
HoM 2 
BP4 7-FB 
BP4 7 
HoM 6 
 

(And Dazzler's appearance should also be noted as BP4 7-FB, shouldn't it ?) 

This allows for a bit more flexibility with the passage of time in HOM.

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 10:52 am    
By Col_Fury

Good point about the FB notations, I can't believe I missed that... thanks JD. I've edited accordingly. 

However, we're not entirely sure how much time has passed in HoM yet, at least until HoM 8 comes out.(if they even make a mention of it, ie: "How long has reality been altered? I don't know... a week maybe?" Or something like that...) The events of HoM 2-7 have all happened in pretty rapid order... 

If Spider-Man: HoM is any indication, more than a few days have passed between the end of HoM 1 and the beginning of HoM 2. The entire mini looks to take place before Spider-Man is 'woken up,' & a quick glance shows at least 3 or 4 days have passed there so far, three of them in issue 1. This leads me to believe that BP4 7 also takes place before HoM 2. 

Of course, we'll hopefully know more once HoM 8 comes out.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 12:17 pm    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
The events of HoM 2-7 have all happened in pretty rapid order... 
<<<

Less quickly than you may think at first. With only the temporal clues in HOM 1-7, I count five days, Spider-Man getting woken up in Day 3. 
I have yet to analyse SM:HOM, but all the other stories seem compatible with this five-day span. 

Making sense of chronological clues is a nightmare in this crossover, as characters and scenes hop all around the world. I had to think actively of which timezones Latveria, Wakanda and Genosha are supposed to be in. 

By the way, thanks to THE PULSE - HOUSE OF M SPECIAL EDITION, we know that the interview of Ororo is qualified as "yesterday" in the magazine Wolverine picks up on Day One. So BP4 7-FB is definitely before HOM 2, if it is even in-continuity.

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Thread 76

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 01:51 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1-3
By JD

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1-3 
Writer : John Layman 
Penciller : Scot Eaton 
Published from July to September 2005 


FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1 pp1-8 
Subterrannea 
Appearances : Doom, Mole Man, Invicible Woman, Inhuman Torch, It/Thing 
Behind the scenes : Magneto, who ordered Doom to bring down Mole Man 
The Frightful Four fight and kill the Mole Man. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1 pp9-10 
Latveria, early morning (?) 
Appearances : Doom, Invicible Woman, Inhuman Torch, It/Thing 
The Frightful Four go back home and prepare to have some rest. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1 pp11-16 
Latveria, later, afternoon 
Appearances : Doom, It/Thing, Doom's mother, Quicksilver 
Behind the scenes : Magneto (Quicksilver is acting on his behalf) 
Doom puts the It back into his cage, reviews the work of his underlings, has a chat with his mother and is summoned to Genosha by Quicksilver. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1 pp17-22 
Genosha, dawn/early morning 
Appearances : Doom, It/Thing, Magneto, Quicksilver 
Magneto and Doom discuss the Mole Man's demise. Doom takes his frustrations on the It. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 pp1-5 
Flashbacks to the origins of the FF and their relationship with the House of M. 
Can be ignored for chronological purposes. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 pp6-7 
Latveria, afternoon 
Appearances : Doom, Magneto (remotely from Genosha) 
Magneto asks to Doom to find a prison-dimension for holding his ennemies. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 pp8-16 
Latveria and another dimension, "soon" after the last bit 
Appearances : Doom, It/Thing, Invicible Woman, Inhuman Torch 
The Frightful Four find an anti-electromagnetics dimension and slaughter everybody there. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 pp17-18 panel 1 
Latveria, "Later", daytime 
Appearances : Doom, Doom's mother 
Doom hesitates about his plan, his mother encourages him to take action. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 p18 panel 2-p22 
Genosha, dawn (?) 
Appearances : Doom, It/Thing, Invicible Woman, Inhuman Torch, Magneto, Quicksilver, Polaris 
Doom and the FF invite the House of M to go into the portal to the aforementionned dimension (minus Polaris, who wanders off just before). 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #3 pp1-8 
Another dimension, then back to Genosha at daytime 
Appearances : Doom, It/Thing, Invicible Woman, Inhuman Torch, Magneto, Quicksilver 
In the other dimension, the FF beat Magneto and Quicksilver up, then strand them off there. The FF come back to Genosha and kill the genoshan scientists, then take over. The It starts rebelling about this, but is dismissed. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #3 pp9-21 panel 3 
Genosha, the evening 
Appearances : Doom, It/Thing, Invicible Woman, Inhuman Torch, Magneto, Quicksilver, Polaris, Doom's mother 
Off-panel, the It finds Polaris and together they free Magneto and Quicksilver. Presumably, Magneto ordered to fetch Doom's mother. 
Big fight between the House of M, their servants and the Frightful Three. The Invicible Woman and the Inhuman Torch die. Doom's mother, brought to Genosha, renies her son in true hypocritical form. Magneto refuses to kill the broken Doom and sends him back to Latveria. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #3 p21 panel 4 - p22 
Latveria, sunset or dawn 
Appearances : Doom, It/Thing, a redheaded girl I fail to recognise 
Doom sulks alone in his castle. The It joins the Human Resistance at the invitation of the redhead. 


Summary, day by day : 
Day One : FF vs Mole Man, summoning by Magneto (FF:HOM 1) 
Day Two : Magneto's new orders, "cleaning up" the other dimension (FF:HOM 2 pp6-16) 
Day Three : The trap, FF vs Magneto, Breaking of Doom (FF:HOM 2p17 - 3)

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Thread 77

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 01:56 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1-3
By JD

IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1-3 
Writer : Greg Pak 
Penciller : Pat Lee 
Published from July to September 2005 


IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp1-5 
Sapien Death Match Arena, probably near Chicago, daytime 
Appearances : Iron Man, Howard Stark, Johnny Storm, Flash Thompson (commentator) 
Big robots piloted by the first three fight as a TV program. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp6-7 
Chicago, daytime 
Appearances : Iron Man, Howard Stark, Forge, Beast, Yellowjacket 
Behind the scenes : Mastermind 1 (alluded to in dialogue, in competition with Stark Industries) 
Tony oversees the operations of Stark Industries, and Howard goes to see Pym. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp8-9 
Chicago, "Later" 
Appearances : Iron Man, Howard Stark, Yellowjacket 
Tony orders Pym to stop his human genome research. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp10-11 
Chicago, night 
Appearances : Iron Man 
Tony is frustated and works on the Iron Man armor. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp12-13 
Chicago, the next day 
Appearances : Iron Man, Howard Stark 
Tony can't find Pym, but his father orders him not to call the police when he goes see him. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp14-22 
Chicago, night 
Appearances : Iron Man, Howard Stark 
Tony puts on his Iron Man armor and goes looking for Pym. He storms a Sapien Resistance meeting but everybody is then attacked by sentinels. Howard hacks into a sentinel's systems and starts talking to Tony. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #2 pp1-4 
Continuing from the previous bit 
Appearances : Iron Man, Howard Stark 
Tony escapes thanks to some help by Howard. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #2 pp5-10 
Chicago, night then early dawn 
Appearances : Iron Man, Howard Stark, a two-headed House of M envoy 
Tony looks at some footage of the night, the envoy bullies him into giving the Vision project to the House of M, and Howard fustigates him for doing so. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #2 pp11-14 
Chicago, daytime (probably the morning) 
Appearances : Iron Man, the envoy, Johnny Storm, Yellowjacket (on news footage) 
Are those Forge and Beast on page 11 ? 
Tony monitors the investigations of the envoy, then tries summoning the will to destroy his armor. He finds Johnny in the armor, who proceeds to join him. News footage shows that Pym has been caught. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #2 pp15-22 
Chicago, daytime 
Appearances : Iron Man, Johnny Storm, Yellowjacket 
Tony and Johnny rescue Pym but are chased by sentinels (easily disposed of) and mutant guards. Pym then activates an anti-mutant bomb which liquefies the mutant guards. Pym reveals that hundreds of these bombs are deployed in Chicago. 

IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #3 
Chicago, daytime 
Appearances : Iron Man, Johnny Storm, Yellowjacket, Howard Stark, Forge, Beast, the envoy, Magneto, Flash Thompson 
Tony, Johnny and other robot-fighters race against the clocks to neutralise the bombs. The House of M send the Visions to help, but they're taken over by Howard (who supported Pym). Howard reveals this was all a plan to kill Magneto (who duly shows up and kills Howard). Tony refuses to kill Magneto and is then seen helping to clear the damage. 
I think Magneto's appearance here fits just before FF:HOM 2 p18. 
Quicksilver is probably behind the scenes for Magneto to show up (and go back to Genosha) so fast. 


Summary, day by day : 
Day One : Arena, Tony threatens to fire Pym (IM:HOM 1 pp1-11) 
Day Two : Pym has disappeared, IM goes looking for him at night and fights sentinels (IM:HOM 1p12 - 2p4) 
Day Three : Pym is found, IM & JS save him, the search for the bombs, the final showdown, IM cleaning up (IM:HOM 2p5 - 3)

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Thread 78

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 02:03 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #83-86
By JD

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #83-86 
Writer : Peter David 
Penciller : Jorge Lucas 
Published from July to September 2005 


THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #83 pp1-20 
The Australian outback, night 
Appearances : Hulk, aborigene elder, Scorpion 3, Dr Rappaccini, Machine Teen, Dr Isaacs, Unus the Untouchable, Pyro, Exodus 
Bruce completes his initiation among the aborigenes. AIM refugees flee into the outback, but they're attacked by agents of the Australian government (who are even more speciesist than the House of M). After some angst, the Hulk comes and beats up the government agents. However, they've kidnapped Adam (Machine Teen) before fleeing. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #83 pp21-22 
The Australian outback, dawn 
Appearances : Hulk, aborigene chief 
The chief gives his approval for Bruce helping AIM, and talks cryptically about the reality wrap. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp1-3 
Sydney, daylight 
Appearances : Exodus, Pyro, Vanisher, "Conner" 
Behind the scenes : Exodus has an off-panel (presumably long-distance) meeting with Magneto. It is also mentionned that Unus is now hospitalized. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp4-10 
A submarine in the ocean, heading for Sydney 
Appearances : Hulk, Dr Rappaccini, Dr Isaacs 
Hulk helps the submarine hide under a whale, while inside Rappaccini and Isaacs argue about their respective progeniture. Rappaccini then remembers her dinner with Bruce. 

Flashback (pp 7-10) : 
Inside the submarine, between #83 and #84 
Appearances : Hulk, Dr Rappaccini, Scorpion 3 
Hulk and Rappaccini dine together. They're interrupted by Scorpion, who reports that they've been pinged by a sonar (alluded to in p3). Bruce hulks up and goes get a whale to hide them. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp11-14 
Sydney, night 
Appearances : Exodus, Pyro, Vanisher, Machine Teen 
Exodus interrogates Adam. He's interrupted by a missile launched from the sub : it explodes in the air and sheds tracts requesting a summit to settle things. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp15-16 
Inside the submarine 
Appearances : Hulk, Dr Rappaccini, Scorpion 3, Dr Isaacs 
Our heroes learn that the Australian government is accepting the meeting, but they smell a trap. Bruce decides to go anyway. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp17-22 
Sydney, night 
Appearances : Exodus, Pyro, Vanisher, Hulk, Scorpion 3, Dr Isaacs, Machine Teen, Dr Rappaccini (through Scorpion's comm-link) 
Exodus telepathically attacks Bruce. Adam reassembles himself, breaks out of the workshop where he was being examined, and joins the fight. Exodus being distracted, Bruce transforms into the Hulk and pounds down on him, throwing him down to the ground from the balconny. He is acclaimed by Sydney's inhabitants. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 p1 
Sydney, night 
Appearances : Jon, his unnamed girlfriend, some AIM grunts 
Behind the scenes : Dr Rappaccini and Dr Isaacs are behind these events 
A guy named Jon is captured by some AIM grunts. His girlfriend excapes. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 p2-5 
Sydney, night 
Appearances : Hulk, Dr Rappaccini 
After a trying day as President of Australia, Bruce is in bed with Rappaccini and tells her he's been thinking about hulking up to vent his frustrations ("Hulk smashes puny paperwork !"). 
Bruce mentions he's been with AIM for "a few weeks", which can't be right. Let's ignore it, shall we ? 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 pp6-8 
Sydney, the next day, dawn 
Appearances : Jon's girlfriend, Scorpion 3 
Jon's girlfriend is attacked by some AIM grunts again (maybe the same ones) but is rescued by Scorpion. She tells her about disparitions among volunteering test subjects. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 pp9-12 
Sydney, late afternoon ("the last staff meeting for the day") 
Appearances : Hulk, Dr Rappaccini, Machine Teen, some advisers, Scorpion 3, the aborigene chief (speaking through a statue) 
Bruce deals with various administrative matters, then storms off when they ask him to prop out the Hulk once in a while. Scorpion tells him they have a problem. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 pp13-21 
Sydney, night 
Appearances : Hulk, Scorpion 3, Dr Isaacs, Jon, Dr Rappaccini 
Behind the scenes : as we learn next issue, Dr Lazlo is standing next to Rappaccini 
Bruce and Scorpion break into the testing facility, discovering a secret passage to a big underground laboratory where Dr Isaacs turns humans into cyborgs. Hulk smashes until Isaacs confesses that he and Rappaccini thought better than to tell Bruce about this. Rappaccini sees the scene from a monitor. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #86 pp1-11 
Following from the last bit 
Appearances : Hulk, Scorpion 3, Dr Rappaccini, Dr Lazlo, Dr Isaacs (Jon is presumably there among the cyborgs, but they all look alike...) 
Rappaccini tricks Scorpion into activating a sleeping post-hypnotic command she implanted one of the previous nights into Bruce, and hacks into the cyborgs in order to kill him. Hulk was actually playing possum, and smashes through the cyborgs. A giant cyborg is activated. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #86 pp12-19 
Sydney, daylight 
Appearances : Hulk, Scorpion 3, Jon, Dr Rappaccini, Dr Lazlo 
The fight continues as Hulk pounds the giant cyborg through the ground and into the street. Scorpion helps Jon out of the rubble. Rappaccini "suicides" Lazlo so that he can take the blame. Hulk destroys the cyborg and the Opera House. 

THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #86 pp20-22 
Sydney, daylight 
Appearances : Hulk, Scorpion 3, Dr Rappaccini, Dr Isaacs, Machine Teen, Magneto (in holoprojection) 
Bruce orders everybody in the room to get out of Australia except Rappaccini (he does know what she's up to). Magneto offers him to give back Australia to Exodus & Co, Bruce refuses. 


Summary, day by day : 
Day One : Attack against the refugees (H3 83) 
Day Two : AIM and Hulk go to Sidney and beat Exodus up (H3 84) 
Day Three : first day of presidency for Bruce, him and Rappaccini in bed together (H3 85 pp1-5) 
Day Four : More meetings, Scorpion learns of the disparitions, Hulk and Scorpion investigate (H3 85 pp6-21) 
Day Five : end of the fight with the cyborgs, meeting with holoprojection of Magneto (H3 86)

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Thread 79

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 02:19 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] EXILES #69-71
By JD

EXILES #69-71 
Writer : Tony Bedard 
Penciller : Paul Pelletier 
Published from September to October 2005 


[Small note : 
EXILES #67 p9 panel 1-3 
When the Exiles try monitoring Earth-616, all they get is static. 
It's difficult to determine how much time passes between this and #69] 


EXILES #69 pp1-3 
The first few pages are flashbacks to Earth-616 and Beak's life. I don't know what the big fight scene on page 1-2 is supposed to be : it has Cyclops, Storm, Wolverine, Colossus and Nightcrawler against Sentinels in front suburb houses. Does that ring any bells ? Their costumes are Post-Reload. 
Page 3 has flashbacks to Beak's powers emerging, Cyclops and Phoenix visiting his parents to enroll him, Scott and Jean showing him around the school (Morrison period), a generic shot of Xorn's class, and Beak and Angel embracing outside their shed. Apparently, all these are new (except the fourth one), so they should be put into Beak's chronology. 

EXILES #69 pp5-8 
The Crystal Palace 
Appearances : Mimic, Blink-AoA, Morph, Sabretooth-AoA, Beak, Heather Hudson, the Timebreakers 
The Exiles decide to go with Beak to Earth-616, since they still can't see what is happening there (Heather stays behind with the Timebreakers to monitor them and pull them out if they need it). 

EXILES #69 pp9-13 
The Sentinel Memorial, then Times Square ; daytime 
Appearances : Mimic-Ex, Blink-AoA, Morph-Ex, Sabretooth-AoA, Beak, Heather Hudson-Ex and the Timebreakers (through the Tallus) 
The Exiles arrive in Earth-616 and see the (intact) Sentinel Memorial. They see an ad with Angel as a model, which makes Beak angst. They decide to check on the Xavier Institute. 
Today's Daily Bugle announce that the Doom/Magnus meeting is "tomorrow", placing this on Day Four. 

EXILES #69 pp14-22 
Downtown NYC, night (from 11:03pm to some time after 2:52am) 
Appearances : Mimic-Ex, Blink-AoA, Morph-Ex, Sabretooth-AoA, Beak, Angel, Proteus, Blunderbuss (the bouncer) 
Angel goes to a nightclub, then heads home. Proteus, who had been watching her, follows her. Blunderbuss notices and follows him. They fight and Proteus takes Blunderbuss over. In front of her hotel, Beak tries to talk to Angel, but she rejects him. The Exiles try cheering him up and wonder whether they have a right to fix this reality. Proteus is waiting for Angel in her room and takes her over. He then notices the Exiles. 

EXILES #70 pp1-19 
New York City, daytime 
Appearances : Mimic-Ex, Blink-AoA, Morph-Ex, Sabretooth-AoA, Beak, Angel/Proteus, Heather Hudson-Ex and the Timebreakers (through the Tallus), Moira McTaggert 
In what seems to be an art error, we see the Hellicarrier hovering over the twin towers (it should be somewhere on the road to Genosha at this point). 
The Exiles wander in NYC, wondering whether they should fix this reality. Beak gets lured away by Proteus/Angel. Moira notices the Exiles and explains to them who Proteus is. They get attacked by Sentinels (since Moira is an outlaw) but defeat them. They go after Proteus. Meanwhile, Proteus explains who he is to Beak. 

EXILES #70 pp20-22 
New York City. Proteus seems to provoke a storm which darkens the sky, I think it's still daytime. 
Appearances : Mimic-Ex, Blink-AoA, Morph-Ex, Sabretooth-AoA, Beak, Angel/Proteus, Moira McTaggert 
The Exiles (and Moira) go to Angel's place, where Proteus has already started distorting reality. When they arrive to him, Beak is trapped in what used to be a water tower. 

EXILES #71 p2-20 (p1 is a flashback to UXM 128 where the X-Men defeated Proteus) 
New York City, night (oups. The warp should be hitting NYC sooner than that) 
Appearances : Mimic-Ex, Blink-AoA, Morph-Ex, Sabretooth-AoA, Beak, Proteus, Angel, Moira Mc Taggert, Heather Hudson-Ex and the Timebreakers (through the Tallus) 
The Exiles fight Proteus. He tries taking over Moira, but she shoots herself in the head. He then takes Mimic over and leaves this reality. Blink tries healing Angel with the serum they got in EX 68, but gets yanked out (as well as Sabretooth and Morph) just before the second reality warp hits them. 

Suggested placement : Day 4 & 5

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Thread 80

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 02:26 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] CABLE & DEADPOOL #16-17
By JD

A quick one. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #16-17 
Writer : Fabian Nicieza 
Penciller : Patrick Zircher 
Published in June and July 2005 


CABLE & DEADPOOL #16 p20 panel 5 - p22 
A Nebraska farm, daytime 
Appearances : Deadpool, Mr Sinister, baby Cable 
Jumping from one AU to another in order to find Cable, Deadpool blunders into the HoM world and finds the baby Cable in Sinister's care. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #17 pp2-20 (p1 is a recap) 
continuing from the last bit 
Appearances : Deadpool, Mr Sinister, baby Cable, Syrin, Cannonball 
Syrin and Cannonball follow after Deadpool. Everybody discusses the HoM and Cable, after which Sinister provide a means for Syrin and Cannonball to go to Westchester and check on things there. Big fight between Sinister and Deadpool for Cable. Cue in the second reality warp, but Deadpool is able to teleport away with baby Cable just before it hits them. 

There are random displays of Day One scenes in monitors in Sinister's lair (with art directly copied from the relevant issues). 

Suggested placement : Day Five

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Thread 81

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 02:31 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10
By JD

Another quick one... 
I ignored all the flashbacks, as they're false memories. 

CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10 
Writer : Ed Brubaker 
Penciller : Lee Weeks 
Published in August 2005 


CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10 p1, 19 panels 1-3 
New York City Veterans Hall, late evening/night 
Appearances : Captain America, Namor's son 
Steve attends a celebration of the fifty years since he walked on the Moon. 
pp2-18 are loads of flashbacks set before the reality warp, so I'll ignore them. 

CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10 p19 panel 4 - p21 
The Bronx, night 
Appearances : Captain America, Spider-Man, Cage, Wolverine, Emma Frost. We also see the back of the head of a dark-haired woman, but that describes none of the heroes at this point. Art error ? 
Behind the scenes : Hawkeye, Black Cat, Iron Fist, blonde guy, brown-haired-guy, Shadowcat, Doctor Strange, Ms Marvel, Iron Man, She-Hulk, Daredevil, Layla Miller, Cyclops, Cloak 
Steve goes back to his home. Our heroes watch him from above. 


Suggested placement : Day Three (night)

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Thread 82

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 02:35 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] THE PULSE #10
By JD

THE PULSE #10 
Writer : Brian M. Bendis 
Penciller : Michael Lark 
Published in August 2005 


THE PULSE #10 pp1-4 
Outside Stark Tower, New York City, daylight. 
Appearances : Kat Farrell, Spider-Woman 1, Nightcrawler, Sebastian Shaw, a psychic SHIELD agent I fail to recognize 
Kat sees a cordon of SHIELD agents around the Stark Tower (Logan damaged it in HOM 3). She doesn't get any information, but does manage to take a picture with her phone. 
Note: logically, this scene should happen in day Two (just after Logan's escape), but the rest of this book happens after Hawkeye storms off (in Day Four). For the moment, I'll assume that SHIELD have been cordoning of Stark Tower for a few days and Kat only notices it on Day Four (maybe they were waiting for Kurt to come back from Wakanda ?). 

THE PULSE #10 p5 
New York City, daytime 
Appearance : Hawkeye 
Clint sees the Pulse edition with Magneto on the cover, and decides to go to the Daily Bugle. 

THE PULSE #10 pp6-10 
Daily Bugle, New York City, daytime 
Appearances : Kat Ferrell, Ben Urich, a blue mutant editor-in-chief 
Staff meating. Kat arrives late, tries to push the Stark Tower story but doesn't manage to. After the meeting, Ben gives her a few pieces of advice. 

THE PULSE #10 pp11-17 
Daily Bugle, New York City, night 
Appearances : Kat Ferrell, Hawkeye 
Kat works late and finds Hawkeye in the library. They discuss HoM and Clint's status, then he tells her to come with her. 

THE PULSE #10 pp18-22 
Avengers Mansion and Sentinel Memorial, night 
Appearances : Kat Ferrell, Hawkeye 
Clint shows Kat the Avengers Mansion, then shoots an explosive arrow at the Sentinel Memorial. He then goes off to fight Magneto. 

Placement suggestion : Day Four

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Thread 83

Posted: 30 Oct 2005 02:36 am    Post subject: M/CP 131/2-136/2: Ghost Rider/Cage
By Col_Fury

M/CP 131/2: Ghost Rider/Cage 
Heart and Soul pt 1 
Passion Crimes 
W: Karl Bollers 
D: Freddy Mendez 
Published: June 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Luke Cage, Harmony Young, Linda Wei, Darklove. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1-pg1pn3: Luke Cage is visiting Harmony Youngs grave, under television narration by news reporter Linda Wei. 
Pg1pn4: FB-Cage at the morgue to see Harmonys body. 
Pg1pn5: Cage in the cemetery. 
Pg1pn6: Cage in the morgue. 
Pg2-pg3: Leaving the cemetery, Cage is accosted by reporters, gets a cab. 
Pg4-pg8: Dan Ketch is at a bar talking to a girl he recognizes. Her boyfriend shows up, possessed by Darklove. Dan turns into Ghost Rider, chases the girl & her boyfriend, passes Cage in his cab, which crashes. Darklove appears out of the wreckage. 

References: 
Today is February 11. 

Darklove has been making lovers kill each other for ten days at this point, so the killings started on February 1. 

We dont see Harmony in the present day, but shes there in the cemetery, so she gets a BTS. We do see her body in the FlashBack, under a sheet. 

M/CP 132/2: Ghost Rider/Cage 
Heart and Soul pt 2 
Love Connection 
W: Karl Bollers 
D: Freddy Mendez 
Published: July 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Luke Cage, Darklove. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Darklove fights Ghost Rider while Cage watches. 
Pg4-pg8: The next evening  20 hours later  Cage does some research. 
Depressed, Dan turns into Ghost Rider. 
Cage checks out the first murder scene. 
Ghost Rider rides his bike. 
Cage looks around. 
Homeless people attack each other. 
Cage looks some more. 
Ghost Rider rides to the homeless people, gets attacked by Darklove. 
Cages flashlight goes out. 

References: 
The day after last issue, so February 12. 

M/CP 133/2: Ghost Rider/Cage 
Heart and Soul pt 3 
Emotional Rescue 
W: Karl Bollers 
D: Freddy Mendez 
Published: July 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Luke Cage, Darklove, Linda Wei. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4pn5: Darklove taunts Cage, Ghost Rider shows up and chases Darklove off. Cage & Ghost Rider go back to Cages hotel room, where Linda Wei is seen on television. 
Pg4pn6-pg4pn8: FB- Ghost Rider wakes up in front of homeless people. 
Pg5: Ghost Rider smashes the TV set. 
Pg6-pg8: The next day, Cage goes to the hospital to see Harmonys attacker. Outside, reporters ask him questions when some guy shoots Cage. He crushes the guys gun with his hand still holding it. He goes back to the hotel to tell Ghost Rider that Darklove is connected to the murders.(Really? What gave it away?) 

References: 
Pg1-pg5 are the same day as last issue, pg6-pg8 are the next day, or February 13. 
The FlashBack takes place between last issue & this issue. 

M/CP 134/2: Ghost Rider/Cage 
Heart and Soul pt 4 
Fuel for Love 
W: Karl Bollers 
D: Freddy Mendez 
Published: August 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Luke Cage, Darklove. 

Synopsis: 
Ghost Rider & Cage attack a bunch of crooks that are smuggling Darklove pages. Darklove appears to taunt them, Ghost Rider takes off leaving Cage behind. 

References: 
Same night as last issue. 

M/CP 135/2: Ghost Rider/Cage 
Heart and Soul pt 5 
Heartbreaking 
W: Karl Bollers 
D: Freddy Mendez 
Published: August 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Luke Cage, Darklove, Linda Wei, Mephisto. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: Cage is looking for Darklove and discovers that hundreds of people are possessed by him. Meanwhile, Ghost Rider & Darklove chat. 
Pg6-pg7: Two page spread, FlashBack to Darkloves origin involving Mephisto. Pg6pn1 & pg7pn12 are in the present, pg6pn2-pg7pn11 are in FlashBack. 
Pg8: Cage jumps into Linda Weis news chopper. 

References: 
Same night as last issue. 

The FlashBack occurs millennia ago. 
GR2 77-FB is the origin of Zarathos, during Native American times, when the world was new. 
GR3 92-FB occurs after Europeans had settled & expanded into America. 

Just because, Id rather not put Darkloves origin before Zarathos. Putting it after this is still millennia ago. 

M/CP 136/2: Ghost Rider/Cage 
Heart and Soul pt 6 
Heartbeaten 
W: Karl Bollers 
D: Freddy Mendez 
Published: September 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Luke Cage, Darklove, Linda Wei-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Cage jumps out of the news chopper in between Ghost Rider & Darklove, and together they defeat him. 

References: 
Same night as last issue, noted as February 14. We must have passed the midnight mark sometime, so lets put it between issues 134 & 135. 135-136 happen in a short timeframe, so that works best. 

With the love theme, February 14 is a plot element, not just a topical reference. Whenever we get around to placing this period of the Marvel Universe onto a calendar, we should keep that in mind. 

Cage jumps out of the news chopper Linda was in last issue, but we dont see her in this issue. She must still be in that helicopter, so she gets a BTS notation. 

February 11: #131, #132 pg1-pg3 
February 12: #132 pg4-pg8, #133 pg1-pg5 
February 13: #133 pg5-pg8, #134 
February 14: #135, #136 

Theres snow on the ground in Jersey in Spirits of Vengeance 12, so the February in this story easily fits after that. Following these issues of GR3 & SoV is a series of Midnight Sons crossovers, so before that is best. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Ghost Rider III/Dan Ketch 
 
GR3 39 
*M/CP 131/2 
*M/CP 132/2 
*M/CP 133/2-FB 
*M/CP 133/2 
*M/CP 134/2 
*M/CP 135/2 
*M/CP 136/2 
GR 3 40 
 

Cage, Luke/Carl Lucas 
 
CAGE 20 
*M/CP 131/2-FB 
*M/CP 131/2 
*M/CP 132/2 
*M/CP 133/2 
*M/CP 134/2 
*M/CP 135/2 
*M/CP 136/2 
SECDEF 15 
 

Mephisto 
GR2 77-FB 
*M/CP 135/2-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
 

Whyte, Harmony(Harmony Young) 
 
PM & IF 108 
*M/CP 131/2-FB 
*M/CP 131/2 

Wei, Linda 
 
GR3 34 
*M/CP 131/2 
*M/CP 133/2 
*M/CP 135/2 
*M/CP 136/2-BTS 
GR3 44 
 

Darklove 
M/CP 135/2-FB 
{M/CP 131/2} 
M/CP 132/2 
M/CP 133/2 
M/CP 134/2 
M/CP 135/2 
M/CP 136/2 

While placing these issues, I noticed that Spirits of Vengeance 7-23 & Blaze 1-4 are missing, due to the Gap. Do you need analyses for these books?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 84

Posted: 21 Sep 2005 07:19 am    Post subject: What's coming from Marvel in December
By Paul O'Brien
Director

From... well, here's the link. The highlights:- 

- The OFFICIAL HANDBOOK does ULTIMATES and ULTIMATE X-MEN. 

- ULTIMATE X-MEN/FANTASTIC FOUR one-shot. 

- ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS HULK - six issue miniseries. 

- The Other continues. 

- SPIDER-MAN/BLACK CAT: EVIL THAT MEN DO #4-5, believe it or not. 

- PUNISHER: SILENT NIGHT one-shot. And PUNISHER: THE TYGER one-shot. 

- DeciMation tie-ins: WOLVERINE #37, GENERATION M #2, NEW EXCALIBUR #2, NEW X-MEN #21, UNCANNY X-MEN #467, X-FACTOR #2, X-MEN #179 and... 

- SON OF M #1. Six-issue mini. Further details to be revealed after HOUSE OF M #7 comes out, but it appears to be a Quicksilver book. 

- MARVEL SPOTLIGHT: JOHN CASSADAY & SEAN MCKEEVER. Some sort of profile of Cassaday and McKeever. Not entirely clear whether any actual stories are featured, although it does promise no adverts or reprints. 

- MARVEL ZOMBIES #1. Geddit? Five-issue miniseries set on the world that the Ultimate FF visited in "Crossover." Silver Surfer seems to be starring. 

- AMAZING FANTASY #16. Begins a five issue storyline starring... Death's Head. No, really. 

- DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON: DEADLY HANDS, reprinting BIZARRE ADVENTURES #25 and DEADLY HANDS OF KUNG FU #32-33. 

- FANTASTIC FOUR SPECIAL by Dwayne McDuffie and Casey Jones. 

- GLX-MAS SPECIAL. Speaks for itself, really. 

- IRON MAN: THE INEVITABLE #1. Six-ssue miniseries by Joe Casey and Frazer Irving, which Casey openly admits only exists so Marvel can get some Iron Man stories on the shelves. 

- NEW AVENGERS: MOST WANTED FILES. Handbook-style profiles of the characters who escaped from the Raft last year. Seriously. 

- SPIDER-WOMAN: ORIGIN #1. Six-issue mini. 

- SHE-HULK #3 is the 100th issue if you add all the volumes together, so it celebrates by reprinting SAVAGE SHE-HULK #1 and SENSATIONAL SHE-HULK #1 too. 

- SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE #1. Ongoing series, sequel to the MARY JANE minis. Out of continuity, of course. 

- WHAT IF. More one-shots - Captain America, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Sub-Mariner, Thor, Wolverine. 

- YOUNG AVENGERS SPECIAL #1. Origin stories. 

Reprints: 
- Hardback of FANTASTIC FOUR #527-532 (oh, come on...) 
- Marvel Masterworks: AVENGERS #41-50 
- Marvel Masterworks: ALL-WINNERS COMICS #1-4 (!) 
- This month's bizarre archive TPB: CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON: SECRET EMPIRE, reprinting CA #169-176. 
- FANTASTIC FOUR VISIONARIES: John Byrne. 
- Another trade paperback of MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS Wolverine stories, from issues #39-50 and MARVEL AGE ANNUAL #4. 
- The original OMEGA THE UNKNOWN gets a trade, including the dodgy finish in DEFENDERS. 
- ESSENTIAL SPIDER-WOMAN vol 1, which must be some kind of contradiction in terms. 
-
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Sep 2005 08:11 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

And if you want a link featuring the solicitations with cover artwork previews, then click here: 

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Dec_05/MarvelDec05.html 

Sometimes seeing the artwork helps. Like the cover images of Spiderman bursting out of a cacoon. Apparently nobody at Marvel remembers we already did that in a recent Spectacular Spiderman arc... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Sep 2005 08:24 pm    
By Ant-Man

I was excited about seeing Death's Head again, until I saw that cover art for Amazing Fantasy.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 22 Sep 2005 11:01 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Here's something I don't know if anyone's caught yet... Fantastic Four. There's no regular issue listed at all. 

Is that an oversight, or is that "FF Special" really just a fill-in issue that Marvel can claim isn't a fill-in issue because it's got a different title? 

I have to say that December looks to have a lot of garbage filling up the month.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 04:21 pm    
By JD

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Is that an oversight, or is that "FF Special" really just a fill-in issue that Marvel can claim isn't a fill-in issue because it's got a different title? 
<<<

Apparently, they're doing the same thing with "Ultimate X-Men / Fantastic Four" (and probably its twin "Ultimate fantastic Four / X-Men" scheduled to ship in january) to disguise the fact we're still not seeing the Singer-penned Ultimate X-Men arc. When was that thing first announced ? I seem to recall it was first scheduled to happen arround ish #54; after the never-happened Mack arc...

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Sep 2005 12:23 pm    
By PeteD

Quote: 
>>>
- MARVEL SPOTLIGHT: JOHN CASSADAY & SEAN MCKEEVER. Some sort of profile of Cassaday and McKeever. Not entirely clear whether any actual stories are featured, although it does promise no adverts or reprints. 
<<<


Marvel Spotlight contains no stories, other than story pages to accompany the articles. 

Pete.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Oct 2005 09:36 am    
By JD

JD wrote: 
>>>
Apparently, they're doing the same thing with "Ultimate X-Men / Fantastic Four" (and probably its twin "Ultimate fantastic Four / X-Men" scheduled to ship in january) to disguise the fact we're still not seeing the Singer-penned Ultimate X-Men arc. When was that thing first announced ? I seem to recall it was first scheduled to happen arround ish #54; after the never-happened Mack arc... 
<<<

This is turning into a running joke : I just found in a Robert Kirman interview on Newsarama that he will take over Ultimate X-Men for at least nine months before the Singer arc.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2005 06:08 am    
By Enda80

I find it interesting these one-shots are doing things such as having a Civil War Captain America. This is similar to the Elseworlds over at DC. 

http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/atelsew.html 

Historical 
In a Historical Elseworlds, DCU characters are placed in a real-world historical setting. The world itself is identical or similar to the real world, with the exception of having superheroes in it. 

The only similar project from Marvel that I recall (and no, I am not thinking of 1602) was Punisher: A Man Named Frank, which had sort of an Old West version of the Punisher. 

I have heard that Chichester planned on doing a Daredevil in the 1800's book called Original Sin, but I think that was just a time travel story.

			*	*	*

Thread 85

Posted: 18 Oct 2005 05:45 pm    Post subject: What's coming from Marvel in January
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Now up at Newsarama. The highlights... 

- ULTIMATE EXTINCTION #1 (of 5), the final part of the Ultimate Gah Lak Tus trilogy. 

- Robert Kirkman takes over ULTIMATE X-MEN, because that Bryan Singer arc isn't ready after all. 

- Final month of the Other crossover. 

- SPIDER-MAN/BLACK CAT: EVIL THAT MEN DO #6 (of 6). In related news, hell freezes over. 

- ARES #1. Five-issue miniseries. Michael Oeming and Travel Foreman. Could be okay. 

- DAREDEVIL #81, the final Bendis/Maleev issue. 

- X-STATIX PRESENTS DEAD GIRL #1. Five-issue miniseries by Milligan, Nick Dragotta, and Michael Allred. Should be good. 

- OFFICIAL HANDBOOK A TO Z #1, beginning a twelve-issue run. Other special issues to run alongside it. So they'll have to sort out Black Panther continuity sooner or later. (Hopefully the pressure to fit in characters will force them to stop trying to cram in every story they once read and wanted to mention.) 

- DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON #1. Six-issue miniseries. Justin Gray, Jimmy Palmiotti, Khary Evans. Creators are a bit hit and miss, but they've done some good stuff before. 

- DOC SAMSON #1. Five-issue miniseries. 

- NEW MANGAVERSE #1 (of 5). Oh, for god's sake. Just to confuse matters, it isn't actually a new Mangaverse, it's the same old Mangaverse. 

- NEXTWAVE #1 (of 12). Warren Ellis irks the purists. 

- PULSE #13. Jessica Jones gives birth, after what is clearly going to be the longest delivery in history. 

- SABLE & FORTUNE #1 (of 6). From the "who the hell thought there was a market for THAT" file: a Silver Sable and Dominic Fortune miniseries. Yes, Dominic Fortune. Yes, really. 

- ASTONISHING X-MEN SAGA. Issues #1-12 condensed into 48 pages. They're not really bringing back MARVEL SAGA, are they...?! 

- EXILES #75-76: the 2099 universe. 

- MYTHOS: X-MEN. First of Paul Jenkins' origin recaps. Out of continuity, so far as I'm aware. Intended more as a general introduction to the characters for the wider audience. 

- Decimation continues in GENERATION M #3, SON OF M #2, UNCANNY X-MEN #468, X-FACTOR #3, and the next three items... 

- SENTINEL SQUAD O*N*E #1. Five issue mini. The new Sentinels have pilots, apparently. 

- X-MEN: THE 198 FILES. Bios on "more than 100 mutants" - ie, a crash list of mutants who are still around, presumably. 

- X-MEN: THE 198 #1. Five issue mini by David Hine and Jim Muniz. 

- X-MEN: THE END vol 3 #1. By the way, this story has taken so long to do that Decimation has *already* invalidated it as a potential future... 

Hardcovers: 
- MARVEL VISIONARIES: ROY THOMAS. All manner of stuff, and a few obscurities. MODELLING WITH MILLIE #44, anyone? 

- MARVEL MASTERWORKS: TALES TO ASTONISH, from 1959-1960. 

- MARVEL MASTERWORKS: HULK, vol 3. 

- NEW AVENGERS #7-10. Yes, a hardcover. Comes with the NEW AVENGERS MOST WANTED thing too. 

- ULTIMATE X-MEN vol 5. Issues #46-57. 

Trade paperbacks include:- 
- ULTIMATE ANNUALS vol 1, a bizarre reprinting decision. 

- Wild Kingdom gets a tpb of its own, reasonably enough. 

- SPIDER-MAN VERSUS SILVER SABLE, a collection of Silver Sable stories presumably tying in with her miniseries. And no, none of them are from her previous solo book. 

- AVENGERS: ABOVE AND BEYOND. More Kurt Busiek Avengers stories. 

Essentials: 
- ESSENTIAL GODZILLA vol 1. 
- ESSENTIAL AVENGERS vol 5. 
- ESSENTIAL OFFICIAL HANDBOOK vol 1, with the entire first run.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 19 Oct 2005 12:41 am    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
- EXILES #75-76: the 2099 universe.  
<<<

Think I'm safe in assuming that's the real 2099, and not the one from that terrible set of one-shots from last year?

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2005 03:28 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Correct. There's some suggestion in the solicitations that one of the 2099 characters will join the Exiles. (Actually, if they're going to bounce around all these abandoned continuities picking up members from comic book limbo, that would be kind of cool.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 19 Oct 2005 12:58 pm    
By garbonzo

As long as it isn't "Ravage 2099" I will be ok with it. 
garbonzo

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Thread 86

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 09:56 am    Post subject: Anyone else bothered by this?
By garbonzo

Saw this in the press release for New Excalibur over on Comicbookresources.com. 

Witness a new beginning in both Excalibur and the X-Universes history in New Excalibur #1. 


A new beginning in X-Universe's history??? Sounds like a continuity/chronology nightmare. Grrrrrr. And with Claremont writing, who knows where we will be dumped in the story.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 04:38 pm    
By Col_Fury

I think they mean "history in the making" or somesuch. I can't really see Claremont wiping out the history that he, for the most part, built. 

Either that, or it's just Marvel hyping it incorrectly, to get people talking about it, & therefore, buy lots of copies.(we all saw how the last Excalibur volume sold) 

In any case, I wouldn't sweat it until the stories themselves present a problem, if ever.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 05:34 pm    
By garbonzo

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I can't really see Claremont wiping out the history that he, for the most part, built. 
<<<


Yes, but can we forget the "6 month" gap that he opened up when he had his second go-round with the X-Men? It is things like that that make me cringe.

			*	*	*

Thread 87

Posted: 05 Sep 2005 08:11 am    Post subject: New Member
By sorrentmutie

Dear Friends, 
I'm a new member writing from Italy. 
Your site is incredible and frankly speaking overwhelming! There is so much work done! 

I subscribed to this group because I'm starting my own private software project regarding Marvel Chronology. Probably you have read hundreds of letters like this, so I want to avoid past errors! 

So here are my points: 

1) I would like to help without creating problems and making disasters. 
2) In this period I'm analysing Marvel stories from the sixties (yesterday I ended August 1963 (not casual!). 
3) I live in Italy so it's not easy to read the freshly published comics. 
4) I'm 37 so I read a lot of Marvel Comics. 
5) I like the concept of Marvel Chronology Project and in general I like chronologies. 

I think I need some advisor to really collaborating with this group. 
So it would be nice to have some help from you. 

Sorry for my bad english and I hope to hear you soon! 

Salvatore

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Posted: 05 Sep 2005 12:12 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Welcome to the website, sorrentmutie. Feel free to contribute in whatever ways you can. We'll try and help you if you have any questions. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 07:59 am    
By sorrentmutie

Thanks for your welcome. 

If I well understood, there are several Call For Analyses in the Issue Analysis section. But they mainly refer to fresh published material so I can't contribute to this secton. 

Salvatore

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Posted: 06 Sep 2005 11:06 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You don't have to wait for a Call. You can provide an analysis of any book. 


watching: cnn

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Posted: 07 Sep 2005 09:38 am    
By sorrentmutie

Ok, i'll try! 

Salvatore

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 02:50 pm    
By sorrentmutie

Dear friends, 
after a period of study I came back with other questions: 

1) I quote from your faqs: 
"You should be prepared to list every character who makes an actual appearance in the story." 

Let's take for example X-Men (1st series) # 2 where there is a FBI agent 
working with Fred Duncan ( named Bill). Have I list also this character? 
Or I must list only the popular characters and villains and humans ? Where is the border between list and not-to-list characters? 

2) According to you, what is the correct approach to list the comics? 
I started like this (for example): 
let's take all the comics published in a particular month and let's try to give a order to the stories and the appearances. But the problem is that in such a way I need to catalog over 40 years of comics before having something consistent and comparable to your work. And in such a case it would be very hard to give any contribution. The second approach could be the following: I want to catalogue X-Men (1st series) # 1. One of the characters is Professor Xavier. Let's begin taking from your site all the appearances of Professor Xavier before X-Men (1st series) # 1 and first catalogue them. But the main drawback is that in such a way I am very dependent from your work. 
So I'm a little bit confused and I don't know how to proceed. 
Please, give me some advice! 

Salvatore

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2005 04:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

sorrentmutie wrote: 
>>>
1) I quote from your faqs: 
"You should be prepared to list every character who makes an actual appearance in the story." 

Let's take for example X-Men (1st series) # 2 where there is a FBI agent 
working with Fred Duncan ( named Bill). Have I list also this character? 
Or I must list only the popular characters and villains and humans ? Where is the border between list and not-to-list characters? 
<<<

I direct you back to the FAQ, particularly question 4, dealing with Mr. Potato Head, for some tips. To answer your direct question, yes, you should list Bill, the FBI agent. No last name is given, so if that's all we have, he probably won't receive a listing, BUT, it's possible that's he's an important character, and someone else here knows his last name. It's just not mentioned in that particular story. So unless you're *very* familiar with the Marvel Universe, it's usually a good practice to list all the characters. 


sorrentmutie wrote: 
>>>
2) According to you, what is the correct approach to list the comics? 
I started like this (for example): 
let's take all the comics published in a particular month and let's try to give a order to the stories and the appearances. But the problem is that in such a way I need to catalog over 40 years of comics before having something consistent and comparable to your work. And in such a case it would be very hard to give any contribution. The second approach could be the following: I want to catalogue X-Men (1st series) # 1. One of the characters is Professor Xavier. Let's begin taking from your site all the appearances of Professor Xavier before X-Men (1st series) # 1 and first catalogue them. But the main drawback is that in such a way I am very dependent from your work. 
So I'm a little bit confused and I don't know how to proceed. 
Please, give me some advice! 
<<<

There may be a language barrier here. I'm not sure what question you're asking. None of these things should be necessary to provide an issue analysis. If you're referring to our request that you list before and after appearances for each character, you really shouldn't have to study all the books published that month, nor should you have to read all the stories that the characters previously appeared in. 

In fact, when providing an issue analysis for a book that's already in the Project, using the chronologies we have here is the preferred method for determining before and after appearances (unless you want to dispute the chronologies). When we ask for before and after appearances, that's more of an appeal for the analysis of books that aren't already in the Project. 

As an aside, if you're aiming to provide analyses of Silver Age Uncanny X-Men issues, be aware that, while your work is welcome here, our own Director, Paul O'Brien already maintains an outstanding index site for X-Men at the X-Axis. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 03:25 am    
By sorrentmutie

Thanks for your kind answer and sorry for my bad english. 
I'll try to explain in different terms: I am looking for a method to be a "serious" Chronologist. In your site we have a database based the appearances of the characters. My contribution could be to check the data already present (just because I can't add the data related to new comics). 
So, imagine I choose to work on the X-Men. What can I do? 
1) Start from X-Men 1 (November 1963) and follow a chronological order strictly based on the published date. So before listing the flashbacks in Uncanny X-Men 300 I need to check for over 30 years of published comics 
2) Start from a character related to the X-Men and follow the indications given in your database and in all the published indexes (jumping from a comics to another). How can I fill a gap If I just check the comics inserted in your database? 

Each of the two solutions have some problem and could cause to me an huge frustration! That's why I asked for your help. 


About the already publshed indexes (in particular Paul O'Brien X-Axis) 
they are outstanding study material. I don't want to re-write the X-Men history: I just want to put together my two great passions: comics and programming. I'm working on a personal Chronology Software with an interface to insert the data and several forms to query the database by year, by character, by issue, etc, etc. And just to clarify: I don't want to sell anything or publish anything! 

Cheers 

Salvatore

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 07:28 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

sorrentmutie wrote: 
>>>
1) Start from X-Men 1 (November 1963) and follow a chronological order strictly based on the published date. So before listing the flashbacks in Uncanny X-Men 300 I need to check for over 30 years of published comics 
2) Start from a character related to the X-Men and follow the indications given in your database and in all the published indexes (jumping from a comics to another). How can I fill a gap If I just check the comics inserted in your database? 

Each of the two solutions have some problem and could cause to me an huge frustration! That's why I asked for your help. 
<<<
 
Hi, sorrentmutie. 

You're absolutely right that both approaches have some big difficulties, and I don't think anyone here has found an ideal solution yet. I think what works best mainly depends on how you prefer to work. 

Typically, what I do is focus on smaller chunks. For example, I might start with Fantastic Four #1-10. While I'm examining those stories, then I would corroborate that with any other stories that are supposed to cover the same general period. There are flashbacks in FF #238, 294 and 520 that all fit in there somewhere, so I would pull out those issues and see how they might or might not fit into place. Then I could look at Human Torch vol. 2 #1 and some of the early Torch stories from Strange Tales because those occur in that time period. And so on... 

On occassion, things get really awkward and I'll need to spend a lot of time on one single story! For example, I spent a huge amount of time just looking at FF #19 because it intersects with Dr. Strange #53, West Coast Avengers #22 and Rise of Apocalypse #3-4. I had to do the same thing again with FF #12, which is retold and added to in Hulk & Thing: Hard Knocks. The original Sentry series and Infinity War were both nightmarish messes as well. 

My point is that there's no "best" way to do things, I don't think. I don't believe anyone here will say it's easy work, but that's part of what makes it rewarding. It's also why we have this forum, so we can post ideas and suggestions -- and have other people chime to say how well they do/don't work. 

I don't know if that actually helps you at all, but those are my thoughts on the matter.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 06:47 am    
By sorrentmutie

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Typically, what I do is focus on smaller chunks. For example, I might start with Fantastic Four #1-10. While I'm examining those stories, then I would corroborate that with any other stories that are supposed to cover the same general period. There are flashbacks in FF #238, 294 and 520 that all fit in there somewhere, so I would pull out those issues and see how they might or might not fit into place. Then I could look at Human Torch vol. 2 #1 and some of the early Torch stories from Strange Tales because those occur in that time period. And so on... 
<<<
 


Thanks! You helped me a lot describing your procedure! 
But I have another little question: how can you be sure that you (or we) are not forgetting some remote issue? Do we have an idea of how many comics were processed and what is the realistic percentage of analysed comics (not considering the gap)? Quoting from the FAQ: 
"I have every Marvel Universe story published from 1961 to 1995. " 
Is this true also for your (our - I would like to be in this group) database? 

Thanks for your attention! 

Salvatore

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 07:55 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

sorrentmutie wrote: 
>>>
how can you be sure that you (or we) are not forgetting some remote issue? 
<<<

Well, ask yourself, how can an encyclopedia be sure, beyond any doubt, that they're not forgetting an entry? How can a dictionary be sure they're not forgetting a word, or a possible interpretation or definition of a word? They can't be sure, and neither can we. 

To an extent, this discussion board helps assure us. But we're constantly adding things. If you're looking for a method where you can be guaranteed that you won't miss anything, you'll never actually start working on the project. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 08:27 am    
By sorrentmutie

Good point! 
I'm just fighting with my scientific background. It would make a difference to know if you have analysed, for example, 90% of the published comics or just 5%. However, you are right. I just need to start! 

Salvatore
