	Marvel Universe Forum
1. UX 66
2. Captain Universe
3. C'ree in Starjammers
4. Classic X-Men # 19
5. Placement of "Spotlight on the Starjammers"
6. Reality warps/recreations/etc
7. Villains in ASMU2 12
8. Black Panther #10 Flashback
9. CA 104
10. Quills
11. Strange Tales 128 / fantastic four
12. CM 2
13. Hot Shots
14. Generation X
15. Justice
16. Punisher
17. Hulk Comic
18. Marvel Fanfare #22-23
19. New X-men #20
20. NFOAS 4
21. Obnoxio
22. Wolverine mini series
23. Spirits of the Earth
24. Captain Marvel: Speaking Without Concern
25. Pulse #12, (it makes me want to cry)...
26. Fantasy Masterpieces
27. Iron Man Crash
28. Avengers Time
29. Shadow Realm
30. X-Men and Alpha Flight
31. X-Men Giveaway
32. Adventures of the X-Men
33. Devil Dinosaur
34. Marvel Knights Spider-Man and Pulse #5
35. Heroes Reborn/Heroes Return
36. PHANTOM EAGLE
37. Sweet XVI canon? Then Venus has a bts appearance
38. General Ross in Thor
39. Jack the Ripper?
40. Deathlok vol 3
41. Korvac Saga
42. Black Knight
43. DRSTR 182-FB
44. CA 114-FB
45. CA 115-FB
46. Barney Barton
47. H@ 1
48. Ulysses Bloodstone Notes and the Monster Hunters
49. SUB-M 15-FB
50. H2 115-FB
51. Sub-M 17,18
52. H2 125-FB
53. NFAOS 13-FB
54. PPSM2 14
55. H2 124-FB and AF Special
56. H2 127-FB
57. IM 19
58. Code of Honor#3 when editors drop the ball
59. SUB-M 23-FB

	Ultimate Universe Forum
60. Issue publication?

	Issue Analysis Forum
61. M/CP 137/3: Ant-Man
62. M/CP 138/4: Spider-Man
63. M/CP 139/4: Batroc
64. M/CP 142/4: Foreigner
65. M/CP 138/3-142/3: Spellbound
66. M/CP 137/2-142/2: Ghost Rider
67. M/CP 137/4, 140/4, 141/4: Iron Fist
68. M/CP 137-142: Wolverine
69. M/CP 143/4: Devil-Slayer
70. M/CP 143/2-144/4: Scarlet Witch
71. M/CP 143/3-144/2: Werewolf
72. M/CP 143-146: Siege of Darkness
73. [HoM crossover] HOUSE OF M #1-8
74. M/CP 147/2: Falcon
75. M/CP 147/3: Masters of Silence
76. M/CP 148/2: Black Panther
77. M/CP 148/3: Captain Universe
78. M/CP 149/2: Daughters of the Dragon
79. M/CP 149/3: Starjammers
80. M/CP 149/4: Namor
81. M/CP 147/4 & 148/4: American Eagle
82. M/CP 147-148, 149: Vengeance
83. [HoM crossover] WOLVERINE v3 #33-35
84. Warlock vol 5, 1-4
85. Marvel Monster: Where Monsters Dwell
86. Black Widow vol 3, 1-3
87. [HoM crossover] UNCANNY X-MEN #462-465
88. [HoM crossover] NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16-19
89. Amazing Fantasy #10/2 - 12/2, (Vampire By Night):
90. FF Wedding Special
91. Giant-Size X-Men 3 & 4
92. Call for analyses -- completed stories
93. Bullseye: Greatest Hits limited series

	Chat Forum
94. Pre-Hero monster stories part of Earth-616
95. Mars



Thread 1

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 01:29 pm    Post subject: UX 66
By sorrentmutie

Dear friends, 
I have a question about the X-Men period between X-Men 66 and the Giant Size X-Men 1. 
If I look in Professor Xavier appearances (but the same is for the other X-Men) I see the following lines: 

UX 66 
X 94/2 
X:HY 1 

Could you please explain me the meaning of X 94/2? Do you refer to X-Men 94 (second story)? Because X-Men 94 / 2 is all about the new X-Men. 

Thanks in advance and sorry if the question is too trivial! 

Salvatore

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Posted: 02 Nov 2005 01:53 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

X 94/2 is the back-up strip in X-MEN vol 2 #94. Have a look at the Key for more on the symbols.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Nov 2005 03:34 pm    
By garbonzo

taken down for me being an idiot! 

garbonzo

Last edited by garbonzo on 02 Nov 2005 06:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 02 Nov 2005 04:02 pm    
By sorrentmutie

Opps, sorry! I thought you were referring to the Uncanny X-Men when it was adjectiveless. 
I fear this story was not published in Italy on the same magazine as the first story but in another one containing "Hidden Years". 

Salvatore

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Posted: 02 Nov 2005 06:26 pm    
By garbonzo

Actually, the second soty is a "Special Bonus Preview" of X-Men The Hidden Years. Is this story independant of issue 1 of TheHidden Years? Or is it merely an advertisements for The Hidden Years, not showing any new info? If that is the case, wouldn't we omit this listing and simply use the Hidden Years appearance? 

Geez, now i wish I would have bought those Hiden Years books in the quarter bin when I saw them 

garbonzo

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Posted: 02 Nov 2005 07:16 pm    
By Harrison

It was a separate story. More like a prologue, actually. Dispensable, except for the completist or obsessive John Byrne fan (of which, regrettably, I am both). 

You should snap those up if you can find them cheap on eBay. If you can stand Byrne's writing, they make for a wonderfully nostalgic read. Kind of a cross between the Thomas/Adams old X-men and the Claremont/Byrne new.

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Thread 2

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 09:56 am    Post subject: Captain Universe
By lkseitz

Since the Captain Universe event is just getting started, this may be premature, but that's rarely stopped me.  This week's CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK reveals the Cap Universe power is sentient. (Actually, this was probably revealed recently in AMAZING FANTASY, but I didn't buy it.) Does this mean we need to revise the CU entry to list not just Steve Coffin, but all appearances of the CU power? Is this discussion going to go the same way as when I asked if the Venom symbiont and Eddie Brock should have separate listings? 

Speaking of which, is there a reason Brock's entry says "see also Venom" but the Venom entry doesn't say "see also Brock, Eddie"?
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:34 am    
By Col_Fury

You're right, the Captain Universe power is talking to Bruce & explaining it's past actions. I'd say that qualifies as a sentient being.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 3

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:44 am    Post subject: C'ree in Starjammers
By Col_Fury

C'ree is the little mouse looking thing that rides around on Ch'od's shoulder. I remember reading in a handbook(or something) somewhere years ago that C'ree is actually a super intelligent being, & that it's language & intellect is so much past ours that to us, it appears to be a simple pet. He's not Ch'od's pet, he's his buddy. 

I was looking for a placement for him when I analysed a M/CP story with the Starjammers, but he currently doesn't have a listing here. However Lockjaw does, & I think the situation is similar. We don't list pets or animals, but Lockjaw isn't a pet... he's an Inhuman. 

My point is: If Lockjaw has a listing, shouldn't C'ree?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 06:53 am    
By Ant-Man

Listed under CR'REEE
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 01:03 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thank you, Ant-Man. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 4

Posted: 25 Oct 2005 09:20 pm    Post subject: Classic X-Men # 19
By captamr

Classic X-Men # 19 reprints UX 113. The new material in this issue presents on pg. 5, 9,10 and a backup feature dedicated to an early Magneto story. Pg. 9 and 10 also only deal with Magneto. Phoenix, Cyclops, and Colossus all have listings for CX 19 but are not shown on pg. 5: 
UX 113 
CX 19 
UX 113 

Beast has the unique distinction of having a BTS listing: 
UX 113 
CX 19  BTS 
UX 113 
Though hes off panel I dont believe this constitutes a BTS although I tread cautiously in this area. However, the other X-Men dont make an appearance here and the CX 19 should be eliminated as well as the subsequent UX 113. I would be inclined to eliminate the Beasts listings as well.
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 09:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

An off-panel appearance *is* a BTS appearance, as far as we're concerned. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 03:57 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, if the guy's in the room but just out of shot, that's a BTS appearance. There can be grey areas around the edges (we don't give all the X-Men students BTS appearances just because there's a scene set at the Mansion), but in a case like that, the policy is pretty clear. It usually only arises where the artist has omitted a character in error, or they're being deliberately kept off panel as a narrative device.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 12:32 pm    
By captamr

Quote: 
>>>
There can be grey areas around the edges (we don't give all the X-Men students BTS appearances just because there's a scene set at the Mansion), but in a case like that, the policy is pretty clear. 
<<<

Not sure Im completely in agreement here as the Beast serves only the purpose of an off panel prisoner with no dialogue, minimal primal thought, and no interaction with the other characters or the plot in the context of the new material for CX 19 which constitutes only pg. 5 for the X-Men. An argument could be made that Magneto whose is on Asteroid M controlling the whole situation or Professor X whose on Kirinos trying to establish telepathic rapport with the X-Men play a more significant role in the plot and therefore should also be credited with a BTS listing for the new material on pg. 5. 

I also understand that we have to respect the definitions as stated originally but I see more problems and grey areas adhering to the policy than say requiring a more active role for the BTS notation such as direct plot involvement (such as minions under order from an off panel boss) or actual dialogue (such as someone on the other end of the phone.)
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 04:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

captamr wrote: 
>>>
I also understand that we have to respect the definitions as stated originally but I see more problems and grey areas adhering to the policy than say requiring a more active role for the BTS notation such as...actual dialogue (such as someone on the other end of the phone.) 
<<<

Actually, our policy is that a voice on the phone would be an actual (verbal) appearance, rather than behind the scenes. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 08:21 pm    
By captamr

Ill continue the thread here since my comments concern Classic X-Men #20 and a continuation of the same storyline and ideas. 
CX 20 presents new material on pg. 6 and 7 involving most X-Men in the Savage Land. However, only panel 1 is CX 20 and the remaining scenes are FBs of CX 20. Panel 1 only involves Banshee and Storm. The listing for Storm is correct but Banshees should mimic her here: 

BANSHEE 

UX 113 
CX 19 
UX 113 
UX 125  FB  BTS (This is actually just a FB for Storm, but I actually understand why this is so!) 
*CX 20  FB (looking at this again, the FB may have just been an omitted typo) 
*UX 114 
CX 20 (pg.6, pn. 1) 
UX 114 

The typo or omission should also be corrected for: 

COLOSSUS / NIGHTCRAWLER 

UX 113 
CX 19 
UX 113 
UX 125 - FB  BTS 
*CX 20  FB 
UX 114 

And finally while were here: 

WOLVERINE 

UX 113 
UX 125 - FB 
CX 20 - FB 
UX 114 
*CX 21/ 2 (occurs in second story) 
UX 114
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 5

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Placement of "Spotlight on the Starjammers"
By electronicLad

I just read the series X-Men: spotlight on the starjammers, and I thought perhaps the placement of the series should be reconsidered. 

Please note that I am basing this on Excalibur, X-Factor and the starjammers series only...so it is possible that other reasons exist why it can't be moved. 

The chronology lists the issues taking place after Excalibur 44, and X-factor 58. I believe it should be placed much earlier, after Excalibur 8 (right before cross time caper) and X-factor 40 (right before X-factor meets the trolls). 

My only reason is that the issue shows X-Factor training in their ship while it floating above the Atlantic. In the current time frame it had settled itself in to New York. A minor reason to be sure (since obviously the ship is mobile). However we are never given the impression that the ship occasionaly left its dock - and I believe there aren't other inconsistencies with this placement. (i.e. teams are intact with appropriate members). 

Just wanted to put that out for consideration and see if there was anything I may have missed.

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Posted: 14 Oct 2005 04:08 pm    
By Somebody

Well, every indication was that Ship stayed in skyscraper form post-Judgement War, whereas it tended to stay in the sea before that. 

What's the Excalibur lineup though - and, more importantly, Phoenix/Rachel's costume if she appears, since there's no gap in Alan Davis' solo run where Rachel's with the team (which effectively splits up temporarily between Exc43 and 48 or thereabouts) and in her all-red outfit with the spikes (I don't count the Necrom fight as "with the team"). 

(Indeed, if Excalibur as a team is there, there's literally no way it can go between Excalibur 43 and 48, since Captain Britain's on Otherworld, and Rachel, Meggan and Kitty are all off elsewhere too, while Nightcrawler has a broken leg)

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Posted: 15 Oct 2005 10:06 pm    
By metaldragon

I only have #2 of 2. The characters involved: 

Starjammers: 
Corsair 
Hepzibah 
Raza 
Binary (reaches the limit of her power and starts becoming less powerful) 
Ch'od 
Kr+ee, his mate, and their offspring 
Waldo 
Sikorsky 
Lilandra (Majestrix in exile) 
Professor X (dead & in stasis, revived by Phoenix energy) 


Deathbird (Majestrix usurper) 
Shi'ar troopers 

Imperial Guard: 
Warstar (B'nee & C'cil) 
Hussar 
Quasar 
Manta 
Zenith (Raza's brother, killed by Binary) 
Gladiator 
Smasher 
Titan 
Tempest 
Electron 
Blackthorn 
Hobgoblin 
Impulse 
Black Light (Deathbird's son) 
White Noise (Deathbird's daughter) 
Earthquake 
Mentor 
Starbolt 
Oracle 
Astra 
Nightside 
Magic 


Excalibur: 
Captain Britain 
Nightcrawler (still having trouble teleporting) 
Shadowcat (still having trouble "turning off" her intangibility) 
Phoenix (Wearing red spikey costume. Shadow Cat says Phoenix was surprised in Lighthouse and trapped in device by Deathbird & her Shi'ar troopers.) 
Meggan 
Lockheed 
Wiget 


X-Factor: 
Archangel 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Iceman 
Marvel Girl 
Ship (is shown hovering over the Atlantic) 


Officer Tarq 
The Legions of Thanos 



X-Factor's appearance could take place between XF 42 (end of Troll/Alchemy story in England) & 43 (beginning of Judgement War XF 43-51). 

Evidence: Ship is shown here hovering (horizontally) over the Atlantic (XF 29-43). (Ship was grounded (vertically) on X-Factor's old compound's on Manhattan island when it returns to Earth until it's destroyed from XF 51-68). Archangel has rejoined the team (XF 36-on). Beast is furry (XF 33-on) and wearing blue shorts (XF 37-on). X-Factor's costumes place this before XF 63 (new blue and yellow uniforms). There is no evidence of the X-terminators and New Mutants being onboard (from NM 76-XF 41). 

Other continuity around then: The New Mutants appear with Shadowcat in Excalibur #8 while they are visiting the ruins of the mansion in NM 75. Rachel visits X-Factor's Ship to see Jean and her baby half-brother in Excalibur #8 before X-Factor leaves for Madelyne Prior's funeral (XF@ 4/3-XF 40-NM 76) so that narrows down over-all continuity between X-Factor, Excalibur, X-terminators, and New Mutants a bit. 

In conclusion, X-Factor's appearance in this issue could place it between XF 42 & 43 (if Ship never left the ground between XF 51-68). 

For Excalibur it would have to take place sometime not long after Excalibur #8 when they return to the Lighthouse. I didn't collect Excalibur so I'll leave that up to the experts. Was Wiget part of the team at this point?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 04 Apr 2006 10:48 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Posted: 15 Oct 2005 11:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't think Widget was awake and functional until *after* the Cross-Time Caper. Meaning, after #25. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 12:37 am    
By metaldragon

Wiget imitates Lockheed growling at Kr+ee and his family. It also creates 2 teleportals. One accidently brings more of Kr+ee's species through to join the fight (Wiget goes "Uh-oh.") the other sends Nightside and Magic home (Wiget detaches from it and burps!). He is shown fully awake and functional here.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 09:28 am    
By Somebody

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Excalibur: 
Captain Britain 
Nightcrawler (still having trouble teleporting) 
Shadowcat (still having trouble "turning off" her intangibility) 
Phoenix (Wearing red spikey costume. Shadow Cat says Phoenix was surprised in Lighthouse and trapped in device by Deathbird & her Shi'ar troopers.) 
Meggan 
Lockheed 
Widget 
<<<

What costume's Captain Britain wearing? If it's the one with the red X and white legs, it must be pre-Inferno. If it's the one with the red chest and blue V at the waist, it must be post-Cross Time Caper. Either way, it can't be between Excalibur #8 and the CTC. 

Similarly with Meggan - her orange suit is pre-CTC, her green one post-CTC. 

Kitty being with the team places it either pre-CTC or post-Exc 34. 

Nightcrawler having trouble teleporting places it absolutely pre-Exc 37, so the current placement is wrong without a shadow of a doubt.

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 09:49 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Seems that you've left a crucial question unanswered. When does Nightcrawler start having trouble teleporting? 


watching: angel

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 10:00 am    
By Somebody

After his injuries in the Mutant Massacre, pre-Excalibur: Sword is Drawn. Doesn't come into the equation - if he's can teleport freely while with Excalibur, it's post-Promethium Exchange, if not it's before.

Last edited by Somebody on 16 Oct 2005 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 10:02 am    
By jephyork
Director

Just from reading this thread -- without consulting the books at all: 

Widget is active, placing it after #25. 
Kitty is present, placing it either before #8 (no, because Widget would be inactive) or after #34. 
Nightcrawler is having trouble teleporting, placing it before #37. 

Therefore -- it should occur between #34-37. 

If we happen to get any costumes that don't line up with this time period, I'd call them "art errors". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 10:38 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Therefore -- it should occur between #34-37. 
<<<

Now try to match it up with X-Factor. 

According to the X-Men Index, Professor X continues in UX 275 from XSOS 2. Then he continues from UX 279 to XF 69. This means that Marvel is saying that Professor X appears in XF 50 before he appears XSOS 2, which means that X-Factor appears in XSOS 2 sometime between XF 50 and 69, rather than between 42 and 43. 


watching: sunday nfl countdown

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 10:43 am    
By JD

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
What costume's Captain Britain wearing? If it's the one with the red X and white legs, it must be pre-Inferno. If it's the one with the red chest and blue V at the waist, it must be post-Cross Time Caper. Either way, it can't be between Excalibur #8 and the CTC. 

Similarly with Meggan - her orange suit is pre-CTC, her green one post-CTC. 
<<<

Both have their pre-CTC (pre-Inferno for CB) costumes. 

As for Widget... Well, aren't most of the stories published during the CTC but labelled as pre-CTC (fillers, GNs, etc.) also showing an active Widget ? What is the MCP's position on these ? 
After a little bit of checking, XCAL 20 & 26 were placed between XCAL 11 & 12 even though they both feature an active Widget... 

According to cover dates, Spotlight on the Starjammers was published concurrently with Excalibur #22-23, which were near the end of the CTC. 

I think we should do the same as for XCAL 20 & 26, ie place them pre-CTC regardless of Widget's status. 

Er, wait a second. In XCAL 20 & 26, CB wears his pre-Inferno costume. These stories CAN'T be placed between XCAL 11 & 12 ! 

Uh oh..

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 10:52 am    
By bmk88

Quote: 
>>>
X-Factor's appearance could take place between XF 42 (end of Troll/Alchemy story in England) & 43 (beginning of Judgement War XF 43-51). 
<<<

hm, there one little problem about that. I haven't read 'Spotlight on the Starjammers' so I don't know how long it lasts but I wonder about that before because there are lots of other stories involving X-Factor members put between those two (f.e. Cyclops in M/CP 17/4-M/CP 24; Beast in A 305, M/CP 39/2-M/CP 44/2, plus he and Jean in Atlantis Attack). 

I can't find way how it plays with NM 77-78 indications about X-Factor. Those two issues place in one night and are placed before Atlantis Attack. 
At the beginning of #77 X-Factor are mentioned to be in England and then at the end of #78 ship is seen starting heading into space. 
So conlusion to me (maybe I'm wrong but where ?) there is not enough time between XF 42 & XF 43 for so many adventures to X-Factor members. 
Besides NM 77-78 is placed before the main part of Atlantis Attack crossover, so if we see ship heading to space (for Judgement War begining) how can Beast and Jean been involved in '7 brides affair' (Atlantis Attack conclusion) before Judgement War? 

BTW, shouldn't X-Factor been granted at least BTS appareances in NM 78 (before or between panels of XF 43 and maybe in NM 77 too - after XF 42)? 

So I see SOS after XCAL 34 and after XF 51 (why should we presume Ship never left the ground between this & #68?). 


As for the SOS-Excalibur connection I've just read 'Cross-time Caper' again and there's Xavier seen in XCAL 17 looking pretty alive so this must be placed before XF 50 (during Judgment War) where he's 'getting worse' and before SOS ('dead & in stasis') (which place well with last Admin post).

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 11:01 am    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
What costume's Captain Britain wearing? If it's the one with the red X and white legs, it must be pre-Inferno. If it's the one with the red chest and blue V at the waist, it must be post-Cross Time Caper. Either way, it can't be between Excalibur #8 and the CTC. 

Similarly with Meggan - her orange suit is pre-CTC, her green one post-CTC. 
<<<

Both have their pre-CTC (pre-Inferno for CB) costumes. 

As for Widget... Well, aren't most of the stories published during the CTC but labelled as pre-CTC (fillers, GNs, etc.) also showing an active Widget ? What is the MCP's position on these ? 
After a little bit of checking, XCAL 20 & 26 were placed between XCAL 11 & 12 even though they both feature an active Widget... 

According to cover dates, Spotlight on the Starjammers was published concurrently with Excalibur #22-23, which were near the end of the CTC. 

I think we should do the same as for XCAL 20 & 26, ie place them pre-CTC regardless of Widget's status. 

Er, wait a second. In XCAL 20 & 26, CB wears his pre-Inferno costume. These stories CAN'T be placed between XCAL 11 & 12 ! 

Uh oh.. 
<<<

Not to mention that Exc 11 ends with Widget firing up and starting them on the CTC: NOTHING can go between Exc 11 & 12! 

*goes back and checks* 

Jeph is wrong in saying that Widget wasn't functional until after the CTC started: but he's correct in a way, since Kitty doesn't seem to recognise Widget in Exc10, and that's where Widget gets his/her name. 

I personally have Exc20 & 26 between Exc5 & 6. Exc 20 has no Widget, so that's no problem, but Exc 26 has Widget. 

Given the info here, I'd place the Starjammers issue between Exc5 & 6 as well. The scene in Exc 10 with Widget is slightly ambiguous - enough that Kitty could have "met" Widget umpteen times before, but not know his/her origin, and seeing Widget with Alistaire Stuart could have led her to assume that Widget was his. It's simpler than the alternatives at any rate.

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 11:03 am    
By JD

bmk88 wrote: 
>>>
As for the SOS-Excalibur connection I've just read 'Cross-time Caper' again and there's Xavier seen in XCAL 17 looking pretty alive so this must be placed before XF 50 (during Judgment War) where he's 'getting worse' and before SOS ('dead & in stasis') (which place well with last Admin post). 
<<<

Xavier is actually quite alive at the start of SOS, as it is the strain of "psionically replacing the ship's shields" in the first few pages that puts him into a coma. I doubt that he would have tried such a stunt if he was not well...

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 11:11 am    
By JD

Somebody wrote: 
I personally have Exc20 & 26 between Exc5 & 6. Exc 20 has no Widget, so that's no problem, but Exc 26 has Widget. 


Er, what ? Widget makes a very big appearance in Exc20 (him being the plot device that allows the team to send the Druid away). It's Exc26 that barely has Widget. 

By the way, I question the assertion somewhere in the beginning that the absence of the X-Terminators means that X-Factor's appearances are somewhere post-Inferno. Wasn't the plot of the X-Terminators mini that X-Factor sends them away in some school just before Inferno ? That should leave a spot somewhere pre-Inferno for X-Factor's appearance in SOS... 
(I haven't checked yet the issues, I'll do it in a moment.) 

[edit] Er, my mistake, metaldragon used the fact that Archangel is with X-Factor for placing it after the beginning of Inferno (XF 36, at the end of which Archangel rejoins). And paging through these issues, I can't see how to make it fit...

Last edited by JD on 16 Oct 2005 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 11:21 am    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
Er, what ? Widget makes a very big appearance in Exc20 (him being the plot device that allows the team to send the Druid away). It's Exc26 that barely has Widget. 
<<<

Ah, that's what comes of glancing very quickly through  

Still stand by the rest of what I said tho, since the placement comes from a time a year or so ago where I took the proper effort to sort them out 

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 11:49 am    
By JD

Well, I agree with you : SOS should be pre-Inferno according to Excalibur's appearances. The problem is that I can't make X-Factor fit (Archangel is not back until after the start of Inferno, and there is no break before NY is back to normal). 

Next best position : XF 42-43, and somewhere between the pages of XCAL 11 (which has enough holes to fit this). CB's costume is then an art error.

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 12:24 pm    
By Somebody

But Widget spends the whole of Exc11 deactivated until very nearly the end - and after he/she wakes up there's no gap :/ 

Plus, Captain Britain's depowered until after his fight with Hauptman Englande, and Widget's deactivated the whole time from when CB powers up (from being back in Britain) until the end of Exc11. Even if Excalibur's appearance was in Britain, which might let the costume thing be an art error, there's no place for it to go, gaps or no gaps. 

I'm beginning to think that the only place IS between 34 & 37, with art errors aplenty (the other thing about pushing it that far forward though is that Kitty's phasing problems had been dropped by that point...)

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 01:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, let's look at the Nightcrawler angle. His teleporting problems are fixed in #37, right? But -- like the Admin asked -- when do they *begin*? 

CB wearing his old outfit isn't a problem -- it was revealed in #100 or so that he still has his old outfit, and had occasionally been tinkering with it behind the scenes. If you're looking for an explanation besides "art error", this could be him giving one of the modifications a test-run. 

I placed #20 and 26 well after the CTC, by the way, regardless of editorial footnotes. Widget may have been "active" before the CTC, but he was never active *around Excalibur* until the last page of #11 ... which led directly into the CTC. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 01:22 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Okay, let's look at the Nightcrawler angle. His teleporting problems are fixed in #37, right? But -- like the Admin asked -- when do they *begin*? 
<<<

As I said in reply to him, before he joined Excalibur - it was an after-effect of his Mutant Massacre injuries. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
CB wearing his old outfit isn't a problem -- it was revealed in #100 or so that he still has his old outfit, and had occasionally been tinkering with it behind the scenes. If you're looking for an explanation besides "art error", this could be him giving one of the modifications a test-run. 
<<<

The Soulsword almost cut it in half in Inferno - and Brian refers to it as "destroyed" in #8. And he doesn't even nearly understand the uniform's point beyond being a standard costume before he has it spelled out to him by the people who give him Captain Marshall's uniform in #13. Any repairs and tinkering would have to be post-CTC therefore. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I placed #20 and 26 well after the CTC, by the way, regardless of editorial footnotes. Widget may have been "active" before the CTC, but he was never active *around Excalibur* until the last page of #11 ... which led directly into the CTC. 
<<<

Again, that requires you to ignore CB's costume.

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 05:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
it was an after-effect of his Mutant Massacre injuries. 
<<<

Ah, that's right, thank you. 


Quote: 
>>>
Any repairs and tinkering would have to be post-CTC therefore. 
<<<

I *am* suggesting putting #20, 26 and the X:SOS series after the CTC. 


Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I placed #20 and 26 well after the CTC, by the way, regardless of editorial footnotes. 
<<<
Again, that requires you to ignore CB's costume. 
<<<

............... or ... assume that he's doing some tinkering. See above and previous. 

And, honestly, the "tinkering" excuse is just for those who aren't satisfied calling it an "art error". I'm perfectly happy going either route. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 09:43 pm    
By Dhall

I still believe that Excalibur 20, Mojo Mayhem, and X-Men: True Friends all occur between pages of Excalibur 11. 

David

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 10:15 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, Mojo Mayhem does, obviously, since Kitty is frustrated and getting nowhere tinkering with an inactive Widget, but: 

Excal #20 has an active Widget. Yes, that argument again. 

True Friends #3 shows that Kitty and Rachel know that Logan is alive. That places it after EXCAL #42. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Oct 2005 11:30 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
hm, there one little problem about that. I haven't read 'Spotlight on the Starjammers' so I don't know how long it lasts but I wonder about that before because there are lots of other stories involving X-Factor members put between those two (f.e. Cyclops in M/CP 17/4-M/CP 24; Beast in A 305, M/CP 39/2-M/CP 44/2, plus he and Jean in Atlantis Attack). 

I can't find way how it plays with NM 77-78 indications about X-Factor. Those two issues place in one night and are placed before Atlantis Attack. 
At the beginning of #77 X-Factor are mentioned to be in England and then at the end of #78 ship is seen starting heading into space. 
So conlusion to me (maybe I'm wrong but where ?) there is not enough time between XF 42 & XF 43 for so many adventures to X-Factor members. 
Besides NM 77-78 is placed before the main part of Atlantis Attack crossover, so if we see ship heading to space (for Judgement War begining) how can Beast and Jean been involved in '7 brides affair' (Atlantis Attack conclusion) before Judgement War? 
<<<

Actually, I wrote a post on here a while back that the Atlantis Attacks crossover cannot take place before Judgement War because of the New Mutants Annuals placement (right before Ship lands on Earth in XF 51). Beast and Marvel Girl have to appear in Atlantis Attacks crossover between NM 88 & XF 52 because XF@ 4 comes after the New Mutants Annual. Do a search of the Forum and youll find the post. 


Quote: 
>>>
BTW, shouldn't X-Factor been granted at least BTS appareances in NM 78 (before or between panels of XF 43 and maybe in NM 77 too - after XF 42)? 
<<<

Yes, I agree X-Factor should have a BTS appearance in NM 78 because the New Mutants and X-Terminators see Ship rise from the ocean and they hear it summon X-Factor to the deck because it is being sent into space (on pg. 29) while the NM & T-terms wonder why. The footnote says: *Find out in X-Factor 43.--Bob 

Ship tells the New Mutants and X-Terminators in NM 77 that X-Factor are still away. Would that and the footnote qualify as a BTS appearance for X-Factor? 

Now that I read those issues again, time factor IS pretty tight between XF 41-NM 77-NM 78-XF 43 (Ship is present in all of those but dosen't appear XF 42 which takes place during NM 77). There could be a large gap between NM 76 & XF 41 where X-Factor, X-Terminators, and the New Mutants could have been out and about doing things. I didn't notice any references as to how much time passes between their apperances together in NM 76 & XF 41... So you probably need to move any of X-Factor's appearances between XF 42 & 43 back into that gap. 


Quote: 
>>>
So I see SOS after XCAL 34 and after XF 51 (why should we presume Ship never left the ground between this & #68?). 

As for the SOS-Excalibur connection I've just read 'Cross-time Caper' again and there's Xavier seen in XCAL 17 looking pretty alive so this must be placed before XF 50 (during Judgment War) where he's 'getting worse' and before SOS ('dead & in stasis') (which place well with last Admin post). 
<<<

Actually, we dont have to presume Ship never left the ground. We were just never shown it leaving in the pages of X-Factor during that period. Dosent mean it couldnt have at some point! 

Back when I bought it, I thought Spotlight on Starjammers went somtime right around Phoenixs appearance in the Days of Future Present Annuals crossover. Is there a problem with this placement? She is wearing the red spikey costume throughout Days of Future Present. Whats going on with the rest of Excalibur at that time? 

The Days of Furure Present Annuals crossover have to take place between XF 58 & 59 [edit: It's clearly stated in XF 59 that the Days of Future Present Annuals crossover takes place before it.]. Between 58 & 59 is the earliest break where SoS can fit into X-Factors continuity because the ongoing story with Archangel allows no breaks between XF 52-58. There has to be a gap after the Annuals (& before XF 59) because Archangel and Iceman are badly injured there and need time to heal. 

It cant go after XF 60 because that is Part 3 of the X-tinction Agenda crossover (which continues to XF 62. They get their new uniforms in XF 63). 

Side note: We know X-Factor Special:PoL goes after XF 59 (& before XF 60) because Trish Tilby breaks up with Beast in XF 59 and he is depressed about that in X-Factor Special: Prisoner of Love. 

Conclusion: SOS (and the Days of Future Present crossover) can fit anywhere between XF 58 & 60. 

The lastest possible spot SOS could fit for X-Factor is sometime between XF 62 & 63 (after X-tinction Agenda and before new costumes.) however I dont think this spot allows for the months where Professor X was helping Lilandras rebellion at the end of SOS 2 before returning to Earth to fight the Shadow King in the Muir Island Saga crossover (begins around UXM 279?). 

A rather off topic question but vaguely related: Why is XF 63-64 listed before UXM 273-274? X-Factor is clearly shown wearing their old costumes in UXM 273-274 and Iceman and Marvel Girl are clearly shown wearing the new blue and yellow uniforms in XF 63-64. I could find no references in XF 63-64 which would place it before UXM 273. The only reason I can think of is Storm needed some time to grow some hair between the end of X-tinction Agenda and UXM 273. That still dosen't explain why XF 63-64 has to come before that. They could still happen after, it just means there is a gap where X-Factor and X-Men are not doing much while Storm's hair grows out. [edit: Oh yea, many were badly injured during X-tinction Agenda so they needed time to heal too while Storm's hair grew.]
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 17 Nov 2005 03:21 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 12:00 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
What costume's Captain Britain wearing? If it's the one with the red X and white legs, it must be pre-Inferno. If it's the one with the red chest and blue V at the waist, it must be post-Cross Time Caper. Either way, it can't be between Excalibur #8 and the CTC. 

Similarly with Meggan - her orange suit is pre-CTC, her green one post-CTC. 

Kitty being with the team places it either pre-CTC or post-Exc 34. 

Nightcrawler having trouble teleporting places it absolutely pre-Exc 37, so the current placement is wrong without a shadow of a doubt. 
<<<

In issue 2: 

Captain Britain is wearing the red X in front/blue back, with white pants, and blue knee high boots costume, with helmet. 

Meggan is wearing a sleeveless skin-tight number with a loose turtle-neck collar that is the same colour as her (blond) hair. Is this the orange suit? 

Kitty is on the team, still has to work at turning off her powers, and says Phoenix was surprised and overcome at their Lighthouse. 

Wiget is a fully interactive member of the team. 

Nightcrawler is not shown teleporting at any point here but when Deathbird starts to transfer Phoenix energy from Rachel to herself, Nightcrawler says: Rachel! Ill have to try another teleport-- but Lilandra says Please do not bother, Nightcrawler... and hits Deathbird in the face before he has to. This implied to me that he is still having problems teleporting.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 12:48 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
As for the SOS-Excalibur connection I've just read 'Cross-time Caper' again and there's Xavier seen in XCAL 17 looking pretty alive so this must be placed before XF 50 (during Judgment War) where he's 'getting worse' and before SOS ('dead & in stasis') (which place well with last Admin post). 
<<<

Holy moley! I totally forgot about that scene in XF 50! Professor X, Lilandra, and Sikorski all appear there and Sikorski says that Charles is dying! I don't own SOS 1 so I didn't immediatly connect that scene in XF 50 to X:SOS 2 where he's dead and in stasis! Can anyone tell how much time passes between SOS 1 & 2? If it is only a short time, X:SOS 2 might have to go here in X-Factor's continuity: 

X:SOS 1 
XF 50 (Ship & X-Factor pass Starjammer with Professor X, Lilandra, & Sikorski aboard scene) 
MN 87/ 
NM@ 5/ 
XF 51/ 
NM 88 (Ship arrives on Earth and New Mutants meet up with X-Factor) 

XF@ 4 
WCA@ 4 
T@ 14 
FF@ 22 (Beast and Marvel Girl in Atlantis Attacks) 

X:SOS 2 (It's possible Archangel returned to Ship briefly for this scene before going off on his own again from...) 
XF 52-58
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 05:22 am    
By JD

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Holy moley! I totally forgot about that scene in XF 50! Professor X, Lilandra, and Sikorski all appear there and Sikorski says that Charles is dying! I don't own SOS 1 so I didn't immediatly connect that scene in XF 50 to X:SOS 2 where he's dead and in stasis! Can anyone tell how much time passes between SOS 1 & 2? If it is only a short time, X:SOS 2 might have to go here in X-Factor's continuity 
<<<

Doesn't work. Xavier falls into his coma in the first few pages of SOS 1, and to the best of my recollection his body doesn't wake up (or leave its cocoon) until the tail end of SOS 2. In XF 50, he is in his bed, talks and is nearly able to sit.

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 07:15 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Excal #20 has an active Widget. Yes, that argument again. 

True Friends #3 shows that Kitty and Rachel know that Logan is alive. That places it after EXCAL #42.  
<<<

Excal #20 shows Kitty buliding a device to activate Widget. There's nothing to say that it stopped working after the end of the issue. 

TF#3, all this proves is that Claremont forgot his own sub-plot. It's a mistake, yes, but doesn't say a lot about series placement. Since there are references in the Cross-Time Caper to the story eventually published as True Friends, TF has to occur between pages of Excal #11. 

Dave

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 07:55 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
TF#3, all this proves is that Claremont forgot his own sub-plot. It's a mistake, yes, but doesn't say a lot about series placement. Since there are references in the Cross-Time Caper to the story eventually published as True Friends, TF has to occur between pages of Excal #11. 
<<<

But one could just as easily claim that the references to True Friends in Excalibur are the mistakes. Or that they're referring to some other events. In fact, don't they *have* to refer to other events, if characteres in True Friends know that Wolverine is alive? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 08:07 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
But one could just as easily claim that the references to True Friends in Excalibur are the mistakes. Or that they're referring to some other events. In fact, don't they *have* to refer to other events, if characteres in True Friends know that Wolverine is alive?  
<<<

Well, there's a flashback,that we see, and clearly the reference was the writer's intent. If we ignore both of those, then we can justify any placement of anything anywhere, in my opinion. It's much easier to believe that Kitty and Rachel learned Logan was alive in TF 3, and swore them to secrecy about it. (Shades of Jean Grey from X-Men 65 anyone?) He may not have even told them that the rest of the X-Men survived. 

Dave

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 10:20 am    
By electronicLad

Hmmm, looks like I opened a can of worms with this one - I'll check my notes this week and see if I gain any insite. 

One point I wanted to bring up though - I'm not sure costumes are the best way to judge chronology. Even if inconsistencies are in fact art/editorial errors - isn't it rational to assume that sometimes a person's costume is still in the wash, not dry yet, being repaired etc... so you have to wear an old one or a backup?

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 12:00 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The problem with that, in Captain Britain's case, is that his costume is magic, and there's no reason to think he had a spare (or at least, a functional one). Besides, after his costume gets destroyed during Inferno, he wanders around in civvies for several issues until finally getting his new costume during the Cross-Time Caper - with rather points against the idea that he had a cosmetically identical spare in the wardrobe. 

More generally, costumes are usually a very important guide for chronology. In many cases they're a clear indicator of creative intent, and if nothing else, a wrong costume would be jarringly obvious in the reading order if it were simply ignored. The costume could of course be an error, but you could say that about anything.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 01:30 pm
By electronicLad

Ahhh. good point about CB's costume. I forgot the magical factor. 

I didn't intend to say ignore costumes in terms of chronology, just that they are probably easier to 'explain away' when there are other factors that aren't meshing.

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 05:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
there's no reason to think he had a spare (or at least, a functional one). 
<<<

Well, except that Excal #100 tells us that he did. And as for it being functional -- it's magic! I'd assume that it'd start to function properly again if it was simply stitched back together. 


Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Excal #20 shows Kitty buliding a device to activate Widget. There's nothing to say that it stopped working after the end of the issue. 
<<<

I'm not quite clear on your argument/point, here. Can you elaborate? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Oct 2005 09:09 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
Doesn't work. Xavier falls into his coma in the first few pages of SOS 1, and to the best of my recollection his body doesn't wake up (or leave its cocoon) until the tail end of SOS 2. In XF 50, he is in his bed, talks and is nearly able to sit. 
<<<

OK. So both issues of X:SOS have to come after XF 50 then. I guess it all depends on Excalibur if it goes in the tight gap between the Atlantis Attacks Annuals crossover and XF 51 or around Rachel's apperance the Days of Future Present Annuals crossover.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 10:45 am 
By metaldragon

So what's the final verdict on X:SOS? It seems we've narrowed it to sometime between Excalibur 34-37. Is there a definative gap there where it can fit? The costumes seem to have been straightened out as either artist error or Captain Britain trying out his fix on the old one. Meggan can simply have done her empathic thing and changed to the old orange outfit to match with his old look. 

I see that Phoenix III's chronology places it right after Excalibur #34 and before the Days of Future Present Annuals crossover. Would this be the definative placement then? Totally works for me.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 11:22 am    
By Somebody

I've actually had a look at Exc 100 for the first time over this thread - and, not only does Brian's costume have what look like great flippin' stitches where it got torn asunder in Inferno, but it bears no great resemblance to that suit - the helmet, gloves and whole lower body are different. 

Plus, the narration informs us that he only got it working just then.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 11:52 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
So what's the final verdict on X:SOS? It seems we've narrowed it to sometime between Excalibur 34-37. 
<<<

I'd still like to see someone tie this period in Excalibur to X-Factor. Are we comfortable saying that XCAL 34-37 occurs after XF 50, or as you tried to show earlier, circa XF 58-60? Let's make sure there are no problems with that. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 12:42 pm    
By metaldragon

The last time we saw direct interaction between X-Factor and Excalibur was Rachel, Jean, Christopher/Nathan, and Ship in XCAL 8 (which takes place between XF 39 & 40). The next time they meet face to face is the Days of Future Present Annuals crossover (Rachel and all of X-Factor). Next step to narrowing down placement is to look at other characters who appear around that time... 

Professor X appears in X-Factor 50 still alive but failing fast. I don't have X:SOS 1 so I don't know his status there. One person said he overstrains himself boosting the Starjammer's shields that issue (SOS 1) which is why he falls into the coma and dies. Another person said he was already slipping into the coma in the opening pages of X:SOS issue 1 and is dead and in stasis for the rest of the issue. I have no way of telling if his appearance at the end of XF 50 takes place during X:SOS 1 or before it. Could someone please give a definitive answer on this? That would nail down it's placement in X-Factor's continuity. 

If X:SOS 1 takes place right around XF 50, X-Factor's apperance in X:SOS 2 might have to fit sometime between the Atlantis Attacks crossover annuals and XF 52. This is a very tight gap and Archangel would have to return to Ship at some point to join in a training session with X-Factor in X:SOS 2 and then leave again to go brood about the helicoptor crash (from XF 51) in XF 52. (This is a very awkward placement and I think the storyline of X:SOS takes long enough their appearance could still fit in the later gap.) 

If X:SOS 1 takes place a while after XF 50 it would have to fit sometime around Rachel's appearance alongside X-Factor in the Days of Future Present Annuals crossover which takes place sometime between XF 58 and 60. (This is supported by Rachel's chronology.) 

Conclusion: because Professor X, Lilandra, Sikorski, and the Starjammer appear in XF 50, X:SOS 2 cannot take place any time before XF 50 so that negates that theory. Depending on what happens to Professor X in X:SOS 1 determines which gap X:SOS fits into in X-Factor's continuity.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 30 Aug 2006 01:14 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 01:09 pm    
By metaldragon

Now that I posted that, and re-read X:SOS 2, I just had a thought... DOES XF 50 take place before X:SOS? At the end of X:SOS 2, Professor X isn't sure if the Phoenix energy will sustain him. Could it be possible that XF 50 takes place after the Phoenix energy is depleted and he is dying again? That means we would be back to looking at that gap between NM 76 & XF 41 again! (and depending on Excalibur's availability once more... Oh man, I should just stop thinking sometimes, I swear.) 

If this is the case, what happens with him between XF 50 where he is dying (again!) and his appearance in the Muir Island Saga crossover where he is very much alive and robust? Anyone?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 03:01 pm    
By Somebody

Well, he appears in the Shiar/Warskrulls story that leads into Muir Isle, but I've never read the start of that story :/

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 04:40 pm    
By JD

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Well, he appears in the Shiar/Warskrulls story that leads into Muir Isle, but I've never read the start of that story :/ 
<<<

Well, by the time we see him again (UXM 276), he's already been captured by the skrulls. The quite healthy Xavier in UXM 275 is an impostor. 

We discover him tangled into strange tentacles thingies and connected to some sort of device that helps the skrulls duplicating him, so obviously he's not very well. Basically, we have no means to know his status before his capture. 


metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
I don't have X:SOS 1 so I don't know his status there. One person said he overstrains himself boosting the Starjammer's shields that issue (SOS 1) which is why he falls into the coma and dies. Another person said he was already slipping into the coma in the opening pages of X:SOS issue 1 and is dead and in stasis for the rest of the issue. 
<<<

I've checked again the thread, and both statements are by me. And they're both (nearly) true. You just misinterpreted the second one. 

SOS 1 opens with a big confusing battle between the Starjammer and some Shi'ar battleship. Page 1 has Xavier dropping the cloaking shields (so that the Starjammers can teleport into the enemy ship). We learn on page 3 that Xavier is "psionically replacing the ship's shields", which strains him enormously : he has a seizure in the same panel. When we come back to him on page 5, he's already gone into a coma and been put into a statis bed. 
His body never wakes up until off-panel between pages 42 & 43 of SOS 2 (a few months pass in this interval). 

I hope this clarifies the situation a bit.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 04:54 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Now that I posted that, and re-read X:SOS 2, I just had a thought... DOES XF 50 take place before X:SOS? At the end of X:SOS 2, Professor X isn't sure if the Phoenix energy will sustain him. Could it be possible that XF 50 takes place after the Phoenix energy is depleted and he is dying again? That means we would be back to looking at that gap between NM 76 & XF 41 again! (and depending on Excalibur's availability once more... Oh man, I should just stop thinking sometimes, I swear.) 
<<<

Again, the Official Index says that XSOS takes place some time after XF 50. The details are in a previous post in this thread. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 25 Oct 2005 11:21 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
Well, by the time we see him again (UXM 276), he's already been captured by the skrulls. The quite healthy Xavier in UXM 275 is an impostor. 
<<<

That's right! I forgot about the Skrull storyline. That's the whole Black & Yellow uniform period with Jim Lee post-X-tinction Agenda. 


Quote: 
>>>
OS 1 opens with a big confusing battle between the Starjammer and some Shi'ar battleship. Page 1 has Xavier dropping the cloaking shields (so that the Starjammers can teleport into the enemy ship). We learn on page 3 that Xavier is "psionically replacing the ship's shields", which strains him enormously : he has a seizure in the same panel. When we come back to him on page 5, he's already gone into a coma and been put into a statis bed. 
His body never wakes up until off-panel between pages 42 & 43 of SOS 2 (a few months pass in this interval). 

I hope this clarifies the situation a bit.  
<<<

Thanks for clearing that up! 

Well then, lets ignore the pre-XF 50 theory and go with the Days of Future Present time period for X:SOS. That seems to be the best fit overall.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 04:02 am    
By Somebody

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Well then, lets ignore the pre-XF 50 theory and go with the Days of Future Present time period for X:SOS. That seems to be the best fit overall. 
<<<

And how does this fit for Excalibur?

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 09:58 am    
By electronicLad

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I still believe that Excalibur 20, Mojo Mayhem, and X-Men: True Friends all occur between pages of Excalibur 11. 
<<<


Just read True Friends last night. 
The only trouble I have with your placement is the bizarre logan appearance at the end of the story ('present time'). Kitty seems suprised to see him, but not suprised that he is alive. 

Not that I have a better placement to offer at this point. Has True friends been documented in the project? I couldn't find it in the key but I may be missing it. 

BTW, Dhall - I've been following the 'X' reading order that you posted in another thread a long time ago. Kudos on that. It is quite accurate and I've only had a few points of contention as I follow along.

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 03:11 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
BTW, Dhall - I've been following the 'X' reading order that you posted in another thread a long time ago. Kudos on that. It is quite accurate and I've only had a few points of contention as I follow along. 
<<<

Please let me know what those are. I have no doubt there are a few errors. Thanks. 


Quote: 
>>>
Just read True Friends last night. 
The only trouble I have with your placement is the bizarre logan appearance at the end of the story ('present time'). Kitty seems suprised to see him, but not suprised that he is alive. 
<<<

The story was begun in 1990, and meant to occur before the cross time caper, However, the story was shelved, and only completed and published in 1999. Hence the ending. Clearly Claremont forgot that Logan was supposed to be dead. 

However, for chronology purposes it matters not. TF #3 is where Kitty and Rachel find out Logan is alive. Yes, it's a retcon, but who cares? 

It's much the same way that Jean Grey always knew that Xavier had faked is own death in UX 42, but never told anyone since he asked her not to. Well this never really happened in UX 42, until UX 65 said it did. 

I don't see any problem with this.

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 05:18 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Clearly Claremont forgot that Logan was supposed to be dead. However, for chronology purposes it matters not. 
<<<

Sure it matters. It's a placement clue. Yes, the story was *originally intended* to occur prior to the Cross-Time Caper, but as you said, it was never finished and shelved for nine years. This wouldn't be the first time that a shelved story was pulled out, dusted off and altered to fit into a different point in time than it was originally written to fit into. 


Quote: 
>>>
TF #3 is where Kitty and Rachel find out Logan is alive. Yes, it's a retcon, but who cares? 
<<<

Or, XCAL #42 is where they find out, and TF #1-3 occur afterwards. 

I know what you're going to say -- there's a line in the CTC (XCAL #21-22 or so) that indicates that the TF series occurs before that point -- but that line is, honestly, so vague it could mean any number of things. 

All Rachel says is "I didn't know what the Shadow King meant, then." And all that means is, now she knows what he meant. It doesn't mean, she knows *because she travelled back in time* -- she could have found out through any number of other means, including a later encounter with the Shadow King. 

To me, the story point that Kitty and Rachel don't bat an eye when they return from their time trip and see Logan, is a bigger placement clue than a vague line about Rachel knowing what the Shadow King meant. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2005 05:34 pm    
By Dhall

And to me, the reverse is true. 

Quote: 
>>>
Sure it matters. It's a placement clue.  
<<<

Or a retcon. Kitty and Rachel always knew Logan was alive.... 

It wouldn't be the first time that X-Men characters have known that someone was alive, and didn't say a word about it...Jean Grey I'm looking at you. 


Dave

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 10:27 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Except, if this were a retcon, Kitty and Rachel would have to have known about Logan being alive *before* the True Friends series -- because they don't seem at all surprised to run into him in #3. 

Really, aside from the vague line in XCAL #22, what evidence is there that this otherwise-standalone series *needs* to occur before the Cross-Time Caper, and therefore *needs* to force us to accept a retcon? 

I'd go Occam's Razor, myself. We know when Excalibur discovered Logan to be alive -- therefore this series occurs after that. And the vague line in XCAL #22 is referring, vaguely, to something else. 


EDIT: And hey, speaking of retcons, it looks like Claremont was serious about his XCAL3 #14 dream sequence that Xavier, Logan and Carmen Pryde all served in a war together. Logan pulls out a photo in GSXM #4 of him in an army camp with a bald man and one other guy... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Nov 2005 08:26 am    
By Dhall

Let's see, I haven't looked at this in a while, is Kitty in control of her phasing power? If not, then it has to go earlier in Excalibur's chronology than you want to place it. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Nov 2005 05:07 pm    
By jephyork
Director

By "in control", I assume you mean "phasing is natural state/has to concentrate to stay solid"? The trouble with that is, it's how Claremont *always* writes Kitty. He has no idea (or doesn't care) that this plotline was wrapped up years ago -- he's written her consistently that way for years. (Including, off the top of my head, Wolverine v2 #125, which definitely takes place after the period we're discussing.) 

Therefore, given that Claremont wrote this series, it's hard to use her tangibility as a placement clue. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Nov 2005 10:14 pm    
By Dhall

I agree with you on that, but I would say that given that Claremont wrote this series, it's hard to use Logan being alive as a placement clue....it's not like Claremont can remember that Logan's supposed to be dead at the time. 

Basically what it comes down to as that this reads like a story that was meant to be set before the Cross Time Caper, with an ending that doesn't fit in that time period. 

I suppose that if we must choose one piece of evidence over the other, then Logan being alive is more important than refernce in Excal 22, BUT most of this story still reads like early Excalibur. 

I would prefer a placement solution or plot retcon that allows us to accept all of the available evidence, instead of picking and choosing which bit we like the best. 

**** Claremont..... 

David

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Posted: 09 Nov 2005 07:28 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
it's not like Claremont can remember that Logan's supposed to be dead at the time. 
<<<

That's your assumption. We don't know Claremont's intent when he came back to finish up this story. Maybe he felt that having Kitty and Rachel meet Logan in the present-day would be a good ending, so he deliberately decided to shift the timeframe up to a point where they knew he was alive. 

Even though he tends to ignore other writers' plot points, Claremont has shown an INSANELY good memory for his own ancient stories. I have a hard time just assuming that he "forgot" that Logan was supposed to be dead. 

I don't want to set a precedent where, if we encounter placement clues we don't like the look of, we can just say "the writer forgot" and ignore them. We should only do that if there's a preponderance of evidence to indicate a placement, and one erroneous placement clue that doesn't fit. 

In cases like this, where there *isn't* a preponderance of evidence otherwise (and no, "it reads like early Excalibur" is not a clue), I don't like to discount the one solid clue we have, on the assumption that the writer maybe got it wrong. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Nov 2005 08:48 am    
By Dhall

Jeph, 

I understand that the Marvel Universe is contradictory, and that an argument can be made that the timeframe for the story was changed. 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't want to set a precedent where, if we encounter placement clues we don't like the look of, we can just say "the writer forgot" and ignore them.  
<<<

Well I don't want to do this either, but I think it's what you are doing! 

Be that as it may, if the placement of the story can't be made to fit using all of the available evidence, then it's pretty clear that the writer forgot something (Either his original intent as evidenced in Excalibur #22, or the Logan being dead plotline.) 

So then, that said, what is the least disruptive placement? 

Frankly Logan being alive around Kitty when he shouldn't be, is more problematical than ignoring a reference to the Shadow King. 

I realize, that we'd have to jump through some hoops to make that reference still work, and that in this case it's probably best not to create more problems than it would solve. 

Dave

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Posted: 09 Nov 2005 09:39 am    
By jephyork
Director

I think you're overlooking the vaguenes of the Shadow King line, though. I've already addressed this earlier in the thread -- all Rachel says is, "I didn't know what he meant, then." And all that implies is, by XCAL #22, she DID know. 

It doesn't *automatically* follow that she knows *because she had travelled in time*. She could have learned what he was talking about in a variety of other ways, including (1) a later encounter with the Shadow King where he explained her upcoming time trip, (2) seeing her upcoming time trip in Logan's memories. Rachel's line is INFERENCE -- not PROOF. 

That said -- there IS a footnote in XCAL #22, directing us to the upcoming Excalibur Bookshelf Specials #3-4, in which the "True Friends" story was to be originally published. Here's how my logic goes: 

1) A footnote indicates that XCAL SPECIAL #3-4 occur before XCAL #22. 
2) Kitty and Rachel's reaction to Logan's presence in TF #3 indicates that it occurs after XCAL #41. 

Now ... in order for us to use the footnote as placement evidence, we need to demonstrate that TF #1-3 contain *exactly the same story* that would have appeared in XCAL SPECIAL #3-4. No alterations, no edits, no updates. 

Can we do that? 

Well, there was that long debate a while back where it was determined that the art was showing Logan with bone claws, a plot point introduced well after the timeframe of XCAL #22. So at this point, it's been decided that at least one change was made to the story. 

Granted, this change was to the art, not the story, but if at least one change was made, it throws into question the authenticity of the rest of the series. DOES it contain the exact same story it would have, had it been published in 1990? 

If you can prove that it does, I'd be willing to weigh the footnote evidence (NOT Rachel's line -- just the footnote) a little stronger. But at this point, I'm inclined to weigh *actual evidence from TF #3* more strongly than a footnote referencing a book that wasn't published in its original form. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 10:48 am    
By electronicLad

Just another small peice of evidence for this debate... 
In Excalibur 37 ( possibly 38) Kitty if fighting faux-wolverine demons in Limbo and says to one of them " I knew Wolverine...". 

Again, small - but it is another point of 'disruption' if the story is placed earlier

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 01:01 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
That said -- there IS a footnote in XCAL #22, directing us to the upcoming Excalibur Bookshelf Specials #3-4, in which the "True Friends" story was to be originally published. 
<<<

We also need to consider the dialogue to which the footnote related. Rachel is relating, in flashback, an encounter with the Shadow King in her own timeline. The Shadow King describes this as "a moment I've been eagerly anticipating since before even your parents were born". Rachel's narrative says "I didn't understand what he meant, then." This line is footnoted with "That story can be found in EXCALIBUR SPECIAL EDITION #'s 3 & 4, on sale this spring and summer." 

So EXCALIBUR SPECIAL EDITION #3-4 are referred to NOT because Rachel is recounting events from those issues, but because they contain the events which lead Amahl Farouk to say that he's been waiting to face Rachel. Of course, Rachel's line "I didn't understand what he meant, then" strongly implies that she NOW knows what he's referring to, in which case TRUE FRIENDS has happened. But then again, she might be mistaken, or she might still not know (though it would be an awkward use of language).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 09 Nov 2005 02:50 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
I think you're overlooking the vaguenes of the Shadow King line, though. 
<<<

I'm just coming at this from the point of view of wanting all the evidence to work together, no matter how vague or how concrete it is. 

I'm willing to conceed that it can't (because of the re-writes/alterations to the story as it finally saw print.) 

Do I miss the old days, when Marvel's references to other books made sense, and the books didn't contradict each other, oh yes I do. 

Dave

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Thread 6

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 05:38 am    Post subject: Reality warps/recreations/etc
By Somebody

Wondering if I could get a full list of the times the Marvel Earth/Universe/Multiverse has been warped out of all recognition/destroyed and recreated/etc in chronological order, with lasting effects? 

So far I know about: 

Jaspers Warp (Captain Britain) 
Earth destroyed/recreated in Dr Strange 
Age of Apocalypse 
Marvel: The End 
Currently in Defenders 
House of M 

Any others? And what order should they all go in?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 05:52 am    
By JD

I don't know if this counts as a "changed beyond recognition", but there was that period in Thor v3 where Thor took over the US or something like that.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 05:55 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

That never happened - the "Reigning" world was simply an alternate timeline.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 06:54 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

How about Morgan Le Fey's reality in A3 1-3?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 08:42 am    
By Crazy Penguin

I think I heard something about Peter David's Captain Marvel rebooting the world.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 09:55 am    
By Enda80

Jaspers Warp (Captain Britain) 
Earth destroyed/recreated in Dr Strange 
Age of Apocalypse 
Marvel: The End 
Currently in Defenders 
House of M 

A later story showed that the Doctor Strange story with the Earth destroyed then recreated was an illusion. Check doctorstrange.nl to download the actual issues. 

Aside from that 
Mys-Tech Wars 
Infinity Gauntlet 
Kulan Gath

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 02:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

"With lasting effects"? Eh. Dunno. 

What about that Sphinx story from the first volume of New Warriors? 

And what do you mean by "what order should they go in?" 


watching: live from

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Posted: 09 Nov 2005 02:29 pm    
By Somebody

Simple chronology, really - Genis' role in killing Eternity, essentially destroying the universe, and recreating it with Entropy as the new Eternity (yeah, I forgot this one in my original list) comes after the AoA in any reading. 

And "lasting effects" = anything really other than a straight reset - AoA brought several characters from that timeline into the MU, Genis caused rips in the universe that were plot points in a couple of later issues of his series, resurrected his mum and spontaneously retconned in a sister for himself.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 04:50 pm    
By Enda80

Don't forget the Absorbing Man.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 05:10 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Does The Korvac Saga count?

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 07 Nov 2005 10:16 pm    Post subject: Villains in ASMU2 12
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone recognize the villians depicted in the Vil-Anon flashback scene in the new Spider-Man Unlimited v2 #12? Big Wheel is there, of course, as Jackson Weele, and we see Armadillo, but who are the others? Man-Bull? Equinox? And who's "Chip?"
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 10:33 pm    
By Col_Fury

That's definitely Equinox & Man-Bull, but for the life of me I can't place Chip. His little floaty things are familiar...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 04:34 pm    Post subject: Black Panther #10 Flashback
By garbonzo

Ok. Nere I go nitpicking again. In the pages of Black Panther #10 previewed here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6173 Cage is seen getting his powers. there is a little bit of new material which can easily be placed page by page between pages in LCHFH #1. the real problem comes with Luke's appearance. In the scene where he breaks out of Seagate, he is bald. In LCHFH #1 he has hair. In addition, Rackham the guard,has a mustache in BP. But in LCHFH #1 he does not. 

In addition, the last panel in the preview shows Luke diving off the island. In LCHFH he is shot by guards and falls off the island. 

So, while the story remains generally the same (gets powers, escapes), the details are off. Do we care? Am I being too nitpicky? I mean, there has already been much debate about the general cononicity of BP v.4 in general.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 04:59 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Does the facial hair, or the hairstyles, play a role in the flashback? If not, Luke is simply misremembering some of the details. Happens all the time. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 01:41 pm    Post subject: CA 104
By Dhall

Iron Man 
IM 5 
IM 6 
**CA 104-BTS 
A 58 
NFAOS 8 
A 60 

Fury sends for Tony Stark to deactivate a nuclear bomb in CA 104, putting Tony behind the scenes. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 10:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, Dave, you're right about Stark's BTS appearance in CA 104. Fury sends for Stark as he's the only one who can defuse the bomb. Later in the story, we learn that the bomb is defused. The presumption is that Stark did it. 

Assuming that the folks who assembled the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 also caught this, however, the placement of CA 104-BTS in Iron Man's chronology should be different from your proposal. The Index lists Iron Man's next appearance after A 52 as IM 2. His next appearance in Avengers is in A 58, with his last chronological appearance before that being IM 6. So CA 104-BTS cannot immediately precede A 58; nor can it immediately follow A 52. It's in there somewhere, though, since the Index places A 52 before CA 101 and A 56 after CA 107. 

Based on the above, CA 104-BTS should go somewhere between IM 2 and IM 6. IM 2 leads directly into IM 3, and IM 3 leads into IM 4. So CA 104-BTS would go somewhere between IM 4 and 6. Given that IM 4 and CA 104 came out the same month, I'd be inclined to place CA 104-FB right after that, between IM 4 and 5.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 10

Posted: 07 Nov 2005 08:30 am    Post subject: Quills
By jannepie

The female mutant in XXM 39 is listed as Quill here, but her actual name is Quills with an "s". In the book it says Quills' and not Quill's.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2005 06:29 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If we're talking about the porcupine-like kid from NEW X-MEN, then it's Quill. If X-TREME X-MEN said otherwise, they were wrong.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2005 07:02 pm    
By Ant-Man

Quill III should be Quills (the one is from the Arena storyline in X-Treme X-Men) 
The student at Xavier's would then become Quill III
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Nov 2005 06:09 am    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
If we're talking about the porcupine-like kid from NEW X-MEN, then it's Quill. If X-TREME X-MEN said otherwise, they were wrong. 
<<<

Quill/Maxwell Jordan debuted in NXMAX1

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 04:44 am    
By jannepie

That's right, I'm not speaking about the member of the Corsairs. 

And while speaking about XXM characters, 

PAINT/ 
XXX 1 
XXX 2 
*XX 32 
*XX 33 
*XX 35 
XX 46

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 11:17 am    Post subject: Strange Tales 128 / fantastic four
By frogcoin

hi im new to this forums and this page, is one of best reference sources for all related to marvel universe. 

now going to the question, in Strange Tales 128 the MCP marks the appearance of all the fantastic four, when in fact only ben and johnny appear, reed richards and sue storm only appears as a "remembrance" done by the scarlet witch in page n 2. 

as it says in the FAQ the remembrances dont qualify to be listed in MCP 

shouldnt reed and sue be removed from ST 128? 

thx "4" your answer 

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 12:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Looks that way, at first glance. Thanks. 


watching: clemson v. florida state

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Thread 12

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 02:52 pm    Post subject: CM 2
By Dhall

CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPTAIN MAR-VELL [KREE] 
ULCM 2-FB 
**CM 2-FB 
ULCM 1 
ULCM 2 
ULCM 3 
{M/SH 12} 
M/SH 13 
CM 1 
CM 2 

The FB from CM 2 has been missed.... 
CM fights Skrulls for control of Galaxy NGC 205. 

IN a nice twist, this incident is mentioned in UCLM 1, so it goes before that issue. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 09:02 pm    Post subject: Hot Shots
By Grant

Anyone know what those Hot Shots one shots were in the 90s? There was one for X-Men and one for Spider-Man. I'm wondering if it falls into continuity or not.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:47 am    
By jephyork
Director

As far as I know, they were just books of painted pin-ups. Can someone else confirm/deny this? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 01:43 pm    Post subject: Generation X
By Grant

Should the Generation X: Holiday Special be included in the Key?

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:46 am    
By jephyork
Director

Would you like to provide an analysis of it? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 01:10 pm    
By Grant

I haven't read it myself. Just wondering if it should be. By analysis do you mean providing the character appearances in their chronological order?

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 05:00 pm    
By jephyork
Director

A list of characters who appear, and some discussion of their status quo at the time (costumes, powers, relationships, any placement clues). A guess at before-and-afters is welcome but not necessary, as is a plot synopsis. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 01:39 pm    Post subject: Justice
By Grant

I notice two series called Justice in the Key. Is one the New Universe series and the other Justice-Four Balance?

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:46 am    
By jephyork
Director

Looks that way to me. Funnily enough, isn't the "Four Balance" series referred to as "J2"? 

Makes me wonder what abbreviation we'll use for the J2 series if and when we ever add the MC2 universe to the Key.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 01:13 pm    
By Grant

So what was it exactly that connected the New Universe Justice to the Marvel Universe? I thought it was just Starbrand that made any contact with the MU in Quasar. Very curious.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 04:05 pm    
By loki

Grant wrote: 
>>>
So what was it exactly that connected the New Universe Justice to the Marvel Universe? I thought it was just Starbrand that made any contact with the MU in Quasar. Very curious. 
<<<

Tensen turned up in Marvel 2099 as the Net Prophet.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 05:02 pm    
By jephyork
Director

No connection between the two Justices. We just named the books J and J2 because they were the first and second books titled "Justice". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 01:11 pm    Post subject: Punisher
By Grant

Was the 3-issue Punisher Back to School Special part of continuity? 

I'm wondering the same thing about Punisher: Bloodlines, the graphic novel Die Hard in the Big Easy, the 1993 Holiday Special, No Escape, Origin of Microchip, P.O.V., Painkiller Jane, the 1991 Summer Special, and the Prize.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 01:15 pm    
By Grant

I just noticed The Prize, No Escape, POV, Bloodlines, the Back to School Special, the Holiday Special, and the Summer Special are in the Key, so never mind my query about those.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 07:12 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Punisher/Painkiller Jane is a crossover with an Event Comics title. IIRC, it treats Painkiller Jane and the Punisher as existing in the same universe. It's probably not canonical. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 01:34 pm    Post subject: Hulk Comic
By Grant

What was contained in the British Hulk comic that qualifies it to be in the Key? I've never heard of this series.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 02:14 pm    
By Somebody

Can't you ask all your questions in one thread rather than starting a new thread for each question?

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 03:12 pm    
By loki

While it does fill out the board a bit, if each question is distinct and unrelated, why shouldn't he ask them in distinct and separate threads? 

As to Grant's question, the British Hulk Weekly contained new (non-reprint) stories for the Hulk, Ant-Man, Nick Fury, Black Knight and Captain Britain, and Night Raven. In the latter cases at least, U.S. stories have referred back to these tales, confirming them as part of the 616 universe (and there's nothing to disqualify the first three from being part of the canon either, other than many people not having had a chance to read them).

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 04:22 pm    
By Enda80

Nick Fury's Hulk Comic adventures were referenced in his recent Handbook entry, and in the Yellow Claw's recent entry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2005 09:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Can't you ask all your questions in one thread rather than starting a new thread for each question? 
<<<

Since they're genuinely unrelated questions, it's actually probably better that he does it this way. We wouldn't want three completely parallel discussions taking place on the same thread.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Nick Fury's Hulk Comic adventures were referenced in his recent Handbook entry, and in the Yellow Claw's recent entry. 
<<<

Huh. That's cool. I remember a long discussion held, oh, years ago where quite a few people held the opinion that *only* the Black Knight and Night Raven stories were canon, since they'd been referenced in US books -- all other new stories, like SHIELD, Hulk, and Ant-Man, weren't canon. 

If memory serves, I did a write-up for issues #1-5 years ago, and never followed up. Honestly, I was discouraged by that conversation, and thought the stories were canon but didn't want to spend time writing analyses I felt would be ignored. 

All of a sudden I'm encouraged to continue.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2005 01:51 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
All of a sudden I'm encouraged to continue. 
<<<

About time! 

Dave 

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hee. Yeah, tell me about it. 

I have *so many* projects, and it's incredibly hard to keep up with comics ever since I switched to "waiting for the trades", so my interest has been on other things lately. Also I've been working two jobs for a while now -- but the second job just wrapped up, and my Pendulum Of Interest is swinging back towards the MCP. Stuff will get done, I can feel it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 01:25 pm    
By Grant

Thanks a lot everyone for those informative responses. I appreciate every bit of information you were able to give. 

And yes, since I understand the nature of this board's topic demands so many things to be specific, I thought my questions should all be separate too. But don't worry about the board being filled out too much, I don't have a lot of these little questions left. 

But I have one about the board itself. Can we access all the messages ever posted here? I can't seem to go beyond October last year, I think, or some point in mid-2004. I used to post as Marvologist, a title my friend jokingly gave me because of my obsession with every bit of Marvel history. I was trying to review them so I didn't repeat any questions. I posted them sometime last year in May-July.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 07:10 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Try the archive. 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/archive/


watching: law and order

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 07:48 pm    
By SeanCurtin

While we're on the subject, does anyone know if Night Raven: The Collected Stories altered the reprinted Hulk Comic stories in any way other than colorization? 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 05:18 pm    Post subject: Marvel Fanfare #22-23
By michel

DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 
... 
ASM 159 
ASM@ 13 
PPTSS@ 1 
M/FAN 22 
M/FAN 23 
A 195-BTS 
DD 165 
CA 259 
ASM@ 15 
... 

Marvel Fanfare #22-23 must happen after Daredevil #165. Octopus is incarcerated in Ryker's Island and remembers his beating by Daredevil and the loss of his adamantium arms. Scientists at Stark International have tested them for weeks. Octopus could have summoned them telepathicaly but waited for his wounds to heal. This suggests to place M/FAN 22-23 just after DD 165.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 10:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
M/FAN 22 
M/FAN 23 
A 195-BTS 
DD 165 
<<<

Just so you know, this is the order noted by the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #4.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 19

Posted: 14 Nov 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: New X-men #20
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm going to avoid the whole problem with this issue not lining up with House Of M #8, (I'm sure others will dissect that to pieces). 

But what I noticed was a line by Wolverine, in regards to X-23: "No more alien costumes, no more growling, and no more B.S." 

No more alien costumes? Is this a reference to the X-23/Captain Universe issue, (coming out this week)? If so, that more than likely puts the current Captain Universe event as having happened before House Of M...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 04:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's a reference to the Fang costume she was (inexplicably) wearing when she first turned up in UNCANNY X-MEN.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 06:58 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
Quote: 
I'm going to avoid the whole problem with this issue not lining up with House Of M #8, (I'm sure others will dissect that to pieces).  


I didn't see major problems. Here's my take on the progression of events in those books and The Day After: 

HOUSE OF M: THE DAY AFTER #1 (1-2) 
Early the morning after HOM 7. Fred Dukes awakens in his room at an Atlantic City casino, only to discover that hes lost his Blob power. 
HOUSE OF M #8 (1-6p5) 
The same morning as HOM:DA 1 (1-2). Layla Miller is woken by her mother on a school day. The Avengers gather in Avengers Tower; some remember the HOM reality and others (those not protected yesterday by Emmas psychic and Stranges mystical defense) dont. Peter Parker is haunted by his memories of the HOM reality. Dr. Strange arrives, in poor shape. Emma Frost awakens on the lawn at the Xavier Institute and hears a scream. Green grass and trees in New York. 
NEW X-MEN #20 (4) 
The same morning as HOM 8 (1-6). It is two years after NX 20-FB. Emma rises to her feet and runs for the Institute building. 
HOUSE OF M #8 (6p6-9) 
The same morning as NX 20 (4). Emma finds the students in a panic as many have lost their powers, including Sofia. Nightcrawler teleports outdoors and wakens Logan, whose memories of his entire life have returned. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN #20 (5-15) 
The same morning as HOM 8 (6-9). The sound of screaming awakens Kevin Ford, who encounters chaos. Dallas Gibson has lost his Specter power and Kevin, thinking his power gone too, touches Laurie and withers her right arm. Melody Guthrie loses her Aero power and Hydro drowns in the Institute pool. Emma summons the Stepford Cuckoos as other New Mutants and Hellions waken. 
HOUSE OF M #8 (10) 
The same morning as NX 20 (5-15). Emma heads to Cerebra to check on the mutant population. 
NEW X-MEN #20 (16-17) 
The same morning as HOM 8 (10). It is 2 days before NX 20 (18-21) and two weeks before NX 20 (22-23). In the Cerebra room, Emma and the Stepford Cuckoos issue a mental command to put all the students to sleep to quell the chaos. 
HOUSE OF M #8 (11-19) 
The same morning as NX 20 (16-17). Cerebra shows the X-Men that most of the mutants of earth have lost their powers. Tag, Moonstar, and Iceman are three of those mutants. The students are awake again. TV news reports about the loss of mutants come in from around the globe; speculated causes include a virus and an anti-mutant government program. The Avengers watch the reports and Strange dwells on his failure to stop Wanda. Upon hearing of someone at the ruins of Avengers Mansion, the Avengers go there and find a Hawkeye costume pinned to a wall with arrows. 
HOUSE OF M: THE DAY AFTER #1 (3-31) 
The same day as HOM 8 (11-19). Without his power, the Blob wants to die. As Trish Tilby reports, Bishop checks out the situation in Mutant Town and assists de-powered mutants with Charlotte Jones. Terrorists bomb the X-Corp headquarters in Paris. Scott orders all X-Corp facilities closed and offers the Institute as a sanctuary for remaining mutants. In the War Room, the X-Men review the status of specific mutants; Thornn and Callisto are also among those whove lost their powers. The president declares a national emergency and activates the Office of National Emergency (O*N*E). Val Cooper is ordered to join the program. Madrox, Rahne, and Guido set out to help the ex-mutants of Mutant Town. Scott tells Kurt to assemble a squad and reconnoiter with Captain Britain in London to investigate the nature of Wandas chaos wave. Scott comforts Emma, who cannot locate Xavier. Lorna comforts Bobby. Roger MacEwan is murdered. MI-13 orders Pete Wisdom to find Captain Britain and respond to the situation in London. Sage confirms that the genes of affected mutants have been erased. Beast refuses to take a call from Trish. When Scott asks Storm to return from Africa, Ororo decides to stay there. Pietro wallows in despair as a bum in Manhattan. In Los Angeles, Jubilee laments the loss of her power. Green trees in New York. 
NEW EXCALIBUR #1 
Probably the same night as HOM:DA 1 (3-31). After a performance at a London club, Dazzler fights a group of ersatz X-Men and left for dead. Nightcrawler and his squad (Kitty, Rachel, Betsy, Talia, and Cain) arrive via X-jet at the ruins of Braddock Manor, where they reunite with Brian. Wisdom shows up and reports Alisons murder. The group reports to the crime scene and restarts Alisons heart, then takes her to a hospital. The investigation leads the team to Frasers Bank, where Brian tries in vain to convince his comrades that Courtney Ross is Sat-Yr-9. There, Wisdom has a discussion with Kitty and a mystery villain tries to steal Nocturnes mind. Green grass and trees in England. Full moon. 

HOUSE OF M #8 (20-26) 
Probably the day after HOM:DA 1 (3-31). The X-Men go to Genosha (where it is morning) and question a powerless Magneto about the location of his children; he doesnt know. Xavier cannot be found. Wanda lives happily in Europe. Hank Pym reports to the press from London on the possible implications of this whole event. 

NEW X-MEN #20 (18-21) 
One day, 2 days after NX 20 (16-17). This segment occurs after X-23 6. Emma dismisses the now-powerless Dani and reaffirms to Scott that the ex-mutants must leave the school. Josh tries to fix Lauries withered arm but cant. Logan calls X-23, who is in San Francisco lamenting the loss of a friend. He asks her to return to the Institute but she throws the phone into the bay. 
HOUSE OF M: THE DAY AFTER #1 (32-40) 
Probably the same day as NX 20 (18-21), since the news of Danis firing is spreading. 27-30 mutant students remain at Xaviers. As parents retrieve their de-powered children from the Xavier Institute, out on the grounds Logan and Colossus save Mammomax, Peepers, and (who?) from an attack by the Sapien League. Then Sentinels from O*N*E arrive. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 

NEW X-MEN #20 (22-23) 
One night, two weeks after NX 20 (16-17). Jay Guthrie shows up on the doorstep of the Xavier Institute, bloody and missing his wings.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 08:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
As parents retrieve their de-powered children from the Xavier Institute, out on the grounds Logan and Colossus save Mammomax, Peepers, and (who?) from an attack by the Sapien League.  
<<<

I believe that's Erg, an extremely obscure Morlock who hasn't been seen in over a decade.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 10:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I believe that's Erg, an extremely obscure Morlock who hasn't been seen in over a decade. 
<<<

Ah, yes. Now that you mention that name, my memory of him has returned. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 20

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 05:06 pm    Post subject: NFOAS 4
By Dhall

Nick Fury 
NFAOS 1 
NFAOS 2 
NFAOS 3 
NFAOS 4 ---Delete 
NFAOS 5 

NFOAS 4 is a re-telling of Strange Tales 135, so it should be deleted from Nick Fury's chronology. 

Dave

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 12:39 am    
By Col_Fury

He's right. NFAOS 4 expands on certain parts & glosses over others, but it essentially retells the same story. There's even an editor's caption that says they used the same 'Whooom!' sound effect from ST 135.(which, of course, they did) It's not a FlashBack, either. The entire comic is a retelling of ST 135, there's no Nick Fury 'bookend' remembering when he was appointed Director of SHIELD, it's just... a retelling. 

Perhaps a synopsis of page/panel ranges is needed to see what's new information and what's not?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 08:22 am    
By Dhall

Sounds like you're volunteering! :wink:

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 09:15 am    
By Col_Fury

I'd be happy to! 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 02:38 am    
By Col_Fury

A quick breakdown of Strange Tales 135: 

Pg1: 
Some SHIELD agents are taking readings of Nick to make some LMDs of him. Nick is not sure whats going on, but that doesnt stop him from smoking! 
Pg2: Ten seconds later; 
The agents take the LMD matrix away to make some LMDs, which will be ready in less than a half hour. Nick wants to know whats going on, but theres no time to explain! 
Pg3pn1-pn3: 
The LMDs are now ready, so Nick and some guy hit the streets surrounded by four Fury LMDs, who head off in different directions. 
Pg3pn4: 
The first LMD is shot & killed by a remote controlled mailbox! 
Pg3pn5: 
The second LMD is shot & killed by an auto mechanic whos under a car! 
A narrators box tells us that the other two LMDs are attacked within the next seven seconds by waiting hidden assassins! 
Pg4-pg5pn4: 
Fury and the other guy drive away, but are attacked by a jet that drops napalm in front of them. They drive through it easily, then shoot missiles at the jet, destroying it. The car begins to fly and Fury is impressed. While lighting a cigarette, the guy explains SHIELD & Hydra to Nick, who hasnt heard of either. 
Pg5pn5-pg6pn3: 
A Hydra agent watches the car fly off, then reports to his boss. 
Pg6pn4-pg8pn2: 
Said boss reports to the Imperial Hydra with the bad news. Imperial Hydra decides to discard this failure of a Hydra agent. After a ceremonial combat, his replacement is revealed to be the first female to ever be in the Hydra circle of assassins. 
Pg8pn3-pn4: 
Fury and the guy go through SHIELD security checkpoints involving a darkened room and electro-chemical analyzers theyre both smoking, of course. 
Pg8pn5-pn6: 
Fury meets the man in charge of SHIELDs special weaponry section Tony Stark! 
Pg9pn1: 
Fury enters a room filled with some of the most famous Joes from every nation in the world or as later described in this issue, half the leaders of the free world. 
Pg9pn2-pn3: 
Tony gives Nick a demonstration of what Hydra is, and what SHIELDs solution to it is. 
Pg10pn1-pn3: 
Tony and the Secretary of State offer Fury the position of Director of SHIELD, Tony mentions to Nick: Your entire life qualifies you for this job! 
Pg10pn4-pg10pn7: 
Nick notices his chair is booby-trapped, so he throws it out the window. 
Pg11: 
The Helicarrier! The chair explodes outside with a Whooom! 
Pg12pn1-pn2: 
Fury starts giving orders. 
Pg12pn3: 
Minutes later, the saboteur has already been found, Fury says to check for a cyanide capsule. 
Pg12pn4-pn5: 
Fury makes his decision. 
Pg12pn6: 
Stark informs the world leaders that Fury is now in charge, and that his work here is done. 
Pg12pn7: 
But what about Hydra? The End. 

And NFAOS 4: 

Pg1: 
In a helicopter, a Hydra agent shoots & kills Nick Fury! 
Pg2-3: 
In a car, a Hydra agent shoots, runs over, then shoots again Nick Fury, a few blocks away from where he was just killed! 
Pg4: 
In a suit of armor, a Hydra agent pummels & kills Nick Fury! 
Pg5pn1-pn3: 
Three different Hydra agents report to their boss that theyve each killed Fury. 
Pg5pn4-pn6: 
Said boss figures this is bad news for him 
Pg5pn7-pg6pn1: 
Nick and some guy get into a car, where the guy explains LMDs to Nick. The guy is wearing a helmet & jumpsuit, whereas in ST 135, he was wearing a suit & tie. 
Pg6pn2-pg8pn4: 
Almost exactly the same sequence from ST 135 pg4-pg5pn4. Lots of identical dialogue. 
Pg8pn5: 
A boiled down version of ST 135 pg8pn5-pg9pn3. 
Pg9-pg11pn2: 
Almost exactly the same sequence from ST 135 pg6pn4-pg8pn2. Lots of identical dialogue. 
Pg11pn3: 
While going through SHIELD security checkpoints, Nick and the guy have a conversation. 
Pg12: 
Continuing the conversation, theres a montage of Nicks face & some generic WWII things, some of which have Nick in them. 
Pg13: 
A boiled down version of ST 135 pg8pn5-pg9pn1. Lots of identical dialogue. 
Pg14pn1: 
The lights in the room are turned down so Nick can watch a film about Hydra. 
Pg14pn2-pn5: 
Tony narrates while Nick watches a film of Hydra agents doing things like flying planes and stuff, ending with a shot of the Imperial Hydra. 
Pg15pn1-pn3: 
Almost exactly the same sequence from ST 135 pg10pn1-pn3. Lots of identical dialogue. 
Pg15pn4-pn8: 
Almost exactly the same sequence from ST 135 pg10pn4-pn7. Lots of identical dialogue. 
Pg16: 
The same as ST 135 pg11, complete with a Whooom! 
Pg17pn1-pn2: 
Almost exactly the same sequence from ST 135 pg12pn1. Lots of identical dialogue. 
Pg17pn3-pg19pn2: 
Fury finds and apprehends the saboteur! 
Pg19pn3-pn4: 
Almost exactly the same sequence from ST 135 pg12pn4-pn5. Lots of identical dialogue. 
Pg19pn5: 
A new comment by Fury. 
Pg20pn1: 
The same as ST 135 pg12pn6, but on a monitor. A Hydra glove is seen. 
Pg20pn2: 
The Imperial Hydra turns the monitor off and talks to himself. 

This read like an issue of Classic X-Men, but instead of inserting new pages into a reprint, they inserted new pages into redrawn pages of the same story. Over half the dialogue is directly lifted from ST 135, but they did add some new information like Fury finding the saboteur, etc. Also, the film of Hydra has the Imperial Hydra in it, so that would be a FlashBack for him. 

In ST 135, four LMDs are deployed and we see two of them destroyed. 
In NFAOS 4, we see three LMDs destroyed. 
Since both second LMD deaths involve cars, we can assume this is the same attack & LMD, and that this sequence from NFAOS 4 is a continuation of the one seen in ST 135. Its irrelevant to anyones chronologies, but there you go. 

Putting the two books together, we have an overall story that would read like this: 

ST 135 pg1-pg3pn4 - making & sending LMDs, death by mailbox 
NFAOS 4 pg1 - death by helicopter 
ST 135 pg3pn5 - attack by auto mechanic 
NFAOS 4 pg2-pg6pn1 - death by automobile, death by armor, Hydra agents reporting in, Nick gets in car, told about LMDs 
ST 135 pg4-pg8pn4 - attacked by a jet, more Hydra reporting, Imperial Hydra reshuffles his people, security checkpoint 
NFAOS 4 pg11pn3-pg12 - conversation at the checkpoint 
ST 135 pg8pn5-pg9pn1  Nick meets Tony, enters the big room 
NFAOS 4 pg14  Nick watches a movie 
ST 135 pg9pn2-pg12pn2  talk about Hydra, the job offer, sabotage! 
NFAOS 4 pg17pn3-pg19pn2  Nick finds the saboteur 
ST 135 pg12pn3-pn5  Nick decides 
NFAOS 4 pg19pn5  Nick makes a comment 
ST 135 pg12pn6-pn7  Stark tells everyone 
NFAOS 4 pg 20  Imperial Hydra contemplates 

Taking all of this into account, NFAOS 4 should be moved in Nicks and the Imperial Hydras chronologies, and placed into Tonys. Herere some suggestions: 

Fury, Col. Nicholas Nick Joseph 
 
FF 21 
FURY 1-FB 
ST 135 pg3 
NFAOS 4 pg5pn7-pg6pn1 
ST 135 pg4-pg8pn4 
NFAOS 4 pg11pn3-pg12 
ST 135 pg8pn5-pg9pn1 
NFAOS 4 pg14 
ST 135 pg9pn2-pg12pn2 
NFAOS 4 pg17pn3-pg19pn2 
ST 135 pg12pn3-pn5 
NFAOS 4 pg19pn5 
ST 135 pg12pn6- 
ST 136 
 

Imperial Hydra/Arnold Brown 
NFAOS 4-FB pg14 
{ST 135} 
NFAOS 4 pg20 
ST 136 
 

Iron Man/Tony Stark 
 
TOS 64 
ST 135 pg9pn1 
NFAOS 4 pg14 
ST 135 pg9pn2-pg12pn5 
NFAOS 4 pg19pn5 
ST 135 pg12pn6- 
CA 221/2 
 

And there it is!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 06:49 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Col_Fury!
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 21

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 06:33 pm    Post subject: Obnoxio
By Grant

Please tell me Obnoxio the Clown vs. the X-Men isn't in canon.

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Posted: 12 Nov 2005 04:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Correct, it isn't. If it was, it would have been mentioned somewhere in the 1990s X-MEN INDEX.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Nov 2005 11:10 am    
By rhod

It's an alternate universe. I expect the Exiles will visit it sometime soon.

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Posted: 12 Nov 2005 11:20 am    
By Oedivanth

Speaking of one-shots, is the "Uncanny X-Men at the Texas State Fair" issue considered canon?

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Posted: 12 Nov 2005 11:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Nope, for the same reason.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:44 am    
By jephyork
Director

So every one-shot not mentioned in the '90s X-Men Index is non-canon? That's kind of an interesting take. 

I would think, if a book was specifically stated to be non-canon, that's one thing -- but if it wasn't mentioned at all, it'd be up to folks like us to make that determination. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 11:21 am    
By Jason Doty

I think that the index's have been proven to be incorrect on many occations and that if they have not mentioned something it should be open for debate. 

I would suggest placing this particular comic after UX 150 and before M/Fan 1 

In this comic Professor X hires a clown for Kitty's birthday, durring the party a character named Eye-Scream (I think thats his name) attacks and the X-Men mistakenly fight Obnoxio who refuses to do the party after. 

Chronological clues are as follows. 
Angel leaves the X-Men because of Wolverine in the late UX 140's 
Cyclops returns in UX 150. 
* Angel attends the party for Kitty 
M/Fan 1-2 Angel goes to Savageland. 
M/Fan 3-4 The X-Men go to Savageland to aid him. There Angel asks Storm "Where's Cyclops" This suggests he knows Cyclops is back, but it never is explained how. The birthday party could be used to explain this.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 11:57 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I suspect there's a clue to be gleaned from the recent crop of X-Men Handbooks. Given their penchant for referencing every *obscure* story in each character's history, one would have to believe Obnoxio would have made it in there, somewhere, if they could have gotten away with it. 

Having said that, you have a point, Jeph. If Marvel doesn't say that it's not canon, the determination is ours. 


watching: banana splits

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:54 pm    
By Dhall

Clearly this is not canon. I mean...just read it.... 

Really though, not every comic Marvel publishes was meant to, or is canon. 

How could it be? 

Dave

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Jason Doty likes to believe that everything's canon. And I have to say, this issue is in my collection as well.  

Didn't Obnoxio appear in other books before this? If so, looking at *their* canonicity might give us some hard evidence one way or the other, besides arguments which will ultimately devolve into "it's really weird" vs. "so what?" 

I think Obnoxio used to appear in "Crazy". 

'Nuff Said? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 11:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sometimes, "it's really weird" is enough. I mean, is "Not Brand Echh" canon? 


watching: return of the king

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 12:03 am    
By JLH

He popped up in at least one issue of "What The--?!", as well.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:10 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So every one-shot not mentioned in the '90s X-Men Index is non-canon? That's kind of an interesting take. 
<<<

It follows logically. If it was canon, it would be listed in the characters' chronologies. If it isn't listed in the characters' chronologies, then either it's a mistake, or it isn't canon. Since the INDEX is an authorised source, and its interpretation is plausible, it is right by definition.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:14 am    
By jephyork
Director

So, you're saying that the 90s X-Men Index listed every single X-Men appearance ever? I didn't realize that that was its remit, nor that fans held that expectation of it. 

I thought that all we could expect was that, if it *did* mention a book, we should rely on its chronological placement -- and if it *didn't* mention a book, we were free to create our own chronological placement for that book. 

As opposed to "if they didn't mention it, it didn't happen". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:21 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So, you're saying that the 90s X-Men Index listed every single X-Men appearance ever? 
<<<

It certainly intends to, because it tracks all appearances that the active X-Men make between issues. They were certainly alive to the issue of doubtful canonicity, which is why DAMAGE CONTROL appearances were always listed as merely "possible" rather than certain. 

Therefore, if an appearance by an X-Man (during the relevant period) is not listed, there are only two possibilities:- 

1. It's been omitted in error. 
2. It's not in continuity and therefore doesn't qualify for a listing. 

I think it's virtually inconceivable that Murray Ward would have inadvertantly omitted a comic as well known as OBNOXIO VS THE X-MEN or X-MEN AT THE TEXAS STATE FAIR, both of which were mainstays of back issue adverts for at least a decade. Their omission, therefore, clearly implies a ruling that the comics in question are not canonical. Since their canonicity was doubtful to start with, and the INDEX is an authorised Marvel source, the INDEX's ruling is automatically right.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:23 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It certainly intends to, because it tracks all appearances that the active X-Men make between issues. 
<<<

ALL? I thought it just hit the major ones. I'll have to re-read this Index. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 08:32 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

They only hit the major ones to the same extent that we do. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 08:35 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's missing the Marvel UK books, which is the only really glaring omission - quite probably because Ward didn't own them and didn't have access to them. That's about it, though.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 01:47 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
They only hit the major ones to the same extent that we do 
<<<

Still, Obnoxio and State Fair are hardly obscure books. I would expect that they'd be in the index if there was even the remote possibility of them being canon. 

Dave

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 06:29 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Still, Obnoxio and State Fair are hardly obscure books. I would expect that they'd be in the index if there was even the remote possibility of them being canon. 
<<<

That's what I meant, when I compared them to us.. Which is to say, they didn't just hit the major appearances; they're...pretty comprehensive. 


watching: time after time

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:33 pm    
By Jason Doty

While I admit to adding appearances that are obscure, I do think that their admition should be based on whether the issue violates continuity or not. Not whether a story is popular or unpopular. 

I think, and I've said it time and time again, that all Marvel books should be added unless they violate continuity. This site is the MARVEL Chronology Project. 

The indexes are riddled with errors and just depending on them gives us nothing to do as chronologists. They should be used as a jumping off point and not law. Is it possible that this issue was omitted by accident or on purpose? Yes, but since we don't know why, lets review it and make a rulling. 

Hopefully, the decision will be based on content rather than speculation.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 08:57 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
that all Marvel books should be added unless they violate continuity 
<<<

and that is fine, but I say that Marvel has published a lot of books that were never intended to be considered canon. It's not the Marvel Appearances Project after all. For example, you won't convince me that Not Brand Ecch, Pizza Hut giveaway books, or any books based on the cartoon Marvel characters are canon. By the same token, Marvel has published many books that appear to be canon and are not. (Transformers, Patsy Walker, many (but probably not all) of the old anthology books...) 

Dave

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 03:50 am    
By Enda80

JLH wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I think Obnoxio used to appear in "Crazy". 
<<<

He popped up in at least one issue of "What The--?!", as well. 
<<<

And an issue of What If I#34 as a narrator.

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 03:56 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The indexes are riddled with errors and just depending on them gives us nothing to do as chronologists. 
<<<

The indexes can be overruled when they're clearly WRONG, but not when they have a valid interpretation which is POSSIBLY RIGHT. They're an officially endorsed source, and Marvel's interpretation of its own continuity (unless plainly mistaken) is automatically the right interpretation.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 09:18 am    
By Jason Doty

Paul O'Brien wrote 
>>>
The indexes can be overruled when they're clearly WRONG, but not when they have a valid interpretation which is POSSIBLY RIGHT. 
<<<

In this case they give no interpretation, it is just omited or accidently overlooked. The argument as I understood it is "If it's not in there, they would'nt have forgotten and hence forth it's not canon," and thats not the way we should approach chronology. 

Just because a history book gives us the most current interpretation does not mean it is correct, new evidence allows informed people to argue and then reinterprate it. New text books will be created with the information by the researchers and we are the researchers. 


DHall wrote 
>>>
I say that Marvel has published a lot of books that were never intended to be considered canon. 
<<<

But since Marvel is not very forth comming as to which books, all Marvel books should be reviewed untill other wise proven to be not. I argued for the Star Trek/X-Men crossovers not based on would we ever see them in an official sourse, but on the content of the issues. Seeing an entry alluding to them in a handbook is nice, but arguing the intent of the editorial office of the time is how that argument went. I'm starting to believe I'm alone in that the content of how a story is presented is more important than what we believe Marvel thinks.

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 09:48 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
I'm starting to believe I'm alone in that the content of how a story is presented is more important than what we believe Marvel thinks. 
<<<

The content argument for obnoxio is that obnoxio is a character from Marvel's humor comics, which are not canon, therefore Obnoxio vs. the X-Men is unlikely to be canon. Added to that, the story is not referenced in any of the Marvel Indexes, or Handbooks, which given the very detailed mentioning of obscure comics in them, gives us a Presumption (but not a certainty) of non-canonicity. 

Not having looked at the State Fair issue in ten years, I do not remember what the content argument for this book is. Does anyone remember, or will we have to pull out the book? 

Dave

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 12:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Not having looked at the State Fair issue in ten years, I do not remember what the content argument for this book is. Does anyone remember, or will we have to pull out the book? 
<<<

Is this going to dredge up the giveaway discussion again? 


watching: live from

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 12:39 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
In this case they give no interpretation, it is just omited or accidently overlooked. 
<<<

Yes, but in circumstances where the only reasonable inference is that it was deliberately omitted because it wasn't canon. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm starting to believe I'm alone in that the content of how a story is presented is more important than what we believe Marvel thinks. 
<<<

You may well be. It's Marvel's universe. They are, by definition, always right.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 04:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
the only reasonable inference is that it was deliberately omitted because it wasn't canon. 
<<<

See -- I'm just not buying that it's the "only *reasonable* inference". 

You yourself mentioned that the Marvel UK books were also left out of the '90s Indexes -- and rather than assume that, therefore, Murray Ward considered them non-canon, you theorized that it was likely that he didn't own them. 

The same assumption could apply here. Perhaps Murray Ward didn't own either book (Obnoxio or State Fair), and therefore couldn't include them. 

It seems to me there's any number of "reasonable inferences" about why books aren't mentioned in the 90's Indexes, that don't include assuming an endorsement of their non-canonicity. 

It also seems to me that, given our oft-stated motto about lack of evidence not equalling evidence, that we shouldn't assume that just because a book was left out of the Index, it was therefore deliberately left out for the specific reason of being declared non-canon. 

The fact is, we don't know WHY the books were left out. We can guess and we can assume, but we don't have any precedent here -- nobody can point me to another example of an Index writer leaving a book out because he considered it non-canon. 

The book is missing from the Index. The end. To me, that means that it's up to US to determine the status of its canonicity. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 05:10 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The fact is, we don't know WHY the books were left out. We can guess and we can assume, but we don't have any precedent here -- nobody can point me to another example of an Index writer leaving a book out because he considered it non-canon.  
<<<

X-MEN/TEEN TITANS. And I know for a fact Ward owns that, because he included in his TEEN TITANS INDEX. 

Marvel UK books are in an unusual position in terms of having access to them - and, in fact, it would only have been a handful of flashbacks that would have qualified for a listing anyway, given the cut-off period. I'm sorry, but I really can't accept as remotely credible the inference that Ward ignored those books because he didn't have access to them, given the comprehensiveness of the index.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 05:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, assuming that the Titans Index was published first, therefore Ward *must* have owned it when he wrote the X-Men Index -- rather than writing the X-Men Index, obtaining the issue and then writing the Titans Index -- I'm confused as to why, if he considered it non-canon, he'd include it in one Index but not the other. 

Quote: 
>>>
I really can't accept as remotely credible the inference that Ward ignored those books because he didn't have access to them 
<<<

Can you accept that there are other possible explanations besides "he decided it was non-canon", though? Can you accept that we don't know for a fact that he made a decision that it was non-canon? Is it at all possible that he just didn't give the books any thought one way or the other? 

I think we may have to simply agree to disagree here. I'm not trying to say "Obnoxio is canon", but I *am* trying to say that we don't have enough to declare a definite *ruling* that it isn't. We have "inferences" in the form of lack of mentions, sure, but we don't have proof, in the form of a definitive statement from Marvel. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 07:17 pm    
By Enda80

Ward does mention them in the index entry for #137 when he gives a list of alternate Earth Phoenixes. He mentions the Phoenix of Marvel and DC Present#1 (X-Men/Teen Titans) as from an alterante Earth. He mentions it in the Titans index only as an alternate Earth (a point repeated in the Crisis Indexes, where that Earth was called Crossover Earth). 

By the way, as Don Campbell pointed out some time ago, the last two issues of the Handbook Deluxe Edition gave a list of canon titles. Was Obnoxio on that list? 


Luckily, I found this posted on Google group. 

An alphabetical list of Marvel's publications with series set in the 
Marvel Universe (excludes Western, Romance, Barbarian, and non-series 
Monster comics)

Last edited by Enda80 on 15 Nov 2005 07:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 07:18 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Okay, assuming that the Titans Index was published first, therefore Ward *must* have owned it when he wrote the X-Men Index -- rather than writing the X-Men Index, obtaining the issue and then writing the Titans Index -- I'm confused as to why, if he considered it non-canon, he'd include it in one Index but not the other. 
<<<

The explanation that I've always assumed was that Murray was told by DC that the story was canon, for DC characters, and Marvel said it wasn't, for Marvel characters. 


watching: law and order

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 08:36 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Some of Obnoxio's appearances in WHAT THE--?! used "funny" versions of actual Marvel Universe characters. If all of the Obnoxio stories are meant to share continuity, then none of them are canonical. 

-Sean

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 09:06 pm  
By Jason Doty

Why can't the 616 have a character named Obnoxio, like their version of Clark Kent?, and I'm also pretty sure Forbush Man (or whatever his name is) has made appearances in the 616 as recently as in an issue of She-Hulk. 

Wasn't Forebush Man the headliner of Not Brand Ecch?

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 09:44 pm    
By Enda80

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
The explanation that I've always assumed was that Murray was told by DC that the story was canon, for DC characters, and Marvel said it wasn't, for Marvel characters. 
<<<


Actually, he states there that it did not take place on Earth-1, in the Titans Index. Further, the Crisis Indexes dubs that Earth "Crossover Earth".

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 05:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, the TEEN TITANS index lists it because the format of that index was to list all Teen Titans comics, whether or not in continuity. The entry specifically describes it as no-canon (although it does contain an explanation of what points in X-Men and Titans history the story is analogous to).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 07:34 am    
By Selaboc

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, as Don Campbell pointed out some time ago, the last two issues of the Handbook Deluxe Edition gave a list of canon titles. Was Obnoxio on that list? 
<<<

Well, if the list in the index matches the list in the google post, it doesn't resolved the issue as there are some known canon books that are not in the list. For example, the 1970 3 issue Ka-zar reprint series isn't listed even though they contian some non-reprint canon stories (IIRC Angel and Hurcules)

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 07:39 am    
By Somebody

Can a mod change Enda's google link (and Selaboc's quote of it) to http://tinyurl.com/98jto so that they don't stretch the page?

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Thread 22

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 08:31 am    Post subject: Wolverine mini series
By Grant

These are some Wolverine specials or mini series that I'm not sure fits into continuity. Any help would be great, as always. 


Wolverine: Netsuke 

Snikt! 

Wolverine: Killing 

Wolverine: Judgment Night 

Wolverine: Evilution 

Wolverine/Doop 

Wolverine: Inner Fury 

Wolverine/Punisher: Damaging Evidence 

The Jungle Adventure 

Wolverine Saga 

Doombringer

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 08:53 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Have you checked the listings, or the calendar (the link for the calendar's at the bottom of the page)? Many of these books are already there. For instance, Wolverine: Jungle Adventure is in his chronology as just before W2 17. 


watching: american morning

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Thread 23

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 09:58 am    Post subject: Spirits of the Earth
By Grant

I'm guessing that the Spider-Man graphic novel Spirits of the Earth is part of continuity but it just hasn't been analyzed yet for the MCP?

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Thread 24

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 09:53 am    Post subject: Captain Marvel: Speaking Without Concern
By Grant

I couldn't find Captain Marvel: Speaking Without Concern at mycomicshop.com. I'm just wondering what that is since it's in the Key.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 09:57 am    
By Grant

Nor could I find an entry for Captain Marvel Special at either mycomicshop.com or milehighcomics.com. Strange. What were these two items?

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 10:13 am    
By Somebody

They're apparently both Monica Rambeau one-shots, CMS from 1989 and CM:SWC from 1994.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 11:31 am    
By Ant-Man

If you're looking for them at the Lone Star Comics site (www.mycomicshop.com), they're both here: 

http://www.mycomicshop.com/megastore/search?pcat=Comics%2DAll&til=1784
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 25

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 12:09 pm    Post subject: Pulse #12, (it makes me want to cry)...
By Kevin W.
Director

I just finished reading this issue. In it, Jessica is going into labor, and she says she's only been pregnant for...6 months.  Instead of the more logical "12 months" we were hoping for, it looks like this baby is coming prematurely... 

Okay, admit it Bendis! You frequent this board, don't you!!! You saw that we were having trouble nailing down how long Jessica's pregnancy occurs, and you wrote this just to spite us!!!! ADMIT IT!!! 

Moving on, some other chronology blips I noticed: 

In the scene where J. Jonah Jameson and Ben Urich are talking, they bring up Daredevil, and Jonah says, "The Feds got him, Urich. He's going down." This is a reference to the current storyline in the pages of Daredevil. So not only has Daredevil's book caught up to what's going on in the pages of New Avengers, but now we see that The Pulse has caught up to what's going on in Daredevil. Or is it that Daredevil has caught up with The Pulse? 

Also, D-man's arrest for vagrancy is noted by Ben Urich as having occured "a month ago". The actual arrest report though, (if you squint your eyes enough) says the arrest occured on 4/12/02. That date is probably easily ignored though, (just like the newspaper dates in the pages of Daredevil).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 12 Nov 2005 12:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I just finished reading this issue. In it, Jessica is going into labor, and she says she's only been pregnant for...6 months. Instead of the more logical "12 months" we were hoping for, it looks like this baby is coming prematurely...  
<<<

It's not just the one reference to "six months" by Jessica herself; Jan says that Jessica has "months" left to her pregnancy and Strange notes the "early" delivery. This, of course, means that PULSE 12 occurs a mere three months after ALIAS 28, in which Jessica was "three months" pregnant. Uh huh...riiiiight... My calculation: Jessica is a whopping 17 months pregnant in PULSE 17!  Maybe that slow-developing fetus can warp people's perception of time. Yeah, that's the ticket... 


Quote: 
>>>
Okay, admit it Bendis! You frequent this board, don't you!!! You saw that we were having trouble nailing down how long Jessica's pregnancy occurs, and you wrote this just to spite us!!!! ADMIT IT!!! 
<<<

As someone noted after a past Bendis screed of mine, can't you feel the love? 


Quote: 
>>>
In the scene where J. Jonah Jameson and Ben Urich are talking, they bring up Daredevil, and Jonah says, "The Feds got him, Urich. He's going down." This is a reference to the current storyline in the pages of Daredevil.  
<<<

So PULSE 12 must occur after DD2 81? Or is there a specific point within the DD2 storyline that PULSE 12 must occur (but not necessarily after DD2 81)? 


Quote: 
>>>
The actual arrest report though, (if you squint your eyes enough) says the arrest occured on 4/12/02. That date is probably easily ignored though 
<<<

Yup. Although I think I'll take the reference to the 12th of the month as accurate. Where the heck did "02" come from???
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Nov 2005 02:38 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So PULSE 12 must occur after DD2 81? Or is there a specific point within the DD2 storyline that PULSE 12 must occur (but not necessarily after DD2 81)? 
<<<


Still a bit too early to tell, at this point. DD2 76-81 will either end with Daredevil being hauled off to jail by the Feds, (that's what the whole storyline is revolving around), or he'll find a way to escape imprisonment. Ben Urich's also heavily involved in DD2 76-81, so there's the possibility the two storylines may weave together...wait and see.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:41 am    
By jephyork
Director

Bendis quite obviously just doesn't care anymore. 

In Alias #28, which guest-starred Jack of Hearts, Jessica was "three months pregnant". Jack then died, and Avengers Disassembled occured after his death -- and the New Avengers formed "six months" after Disassembled. In Pulse #12, guest-starring the New Avengers, Jessica is now "six months pregnant". 

WHICH IS IT, BENDIS? 

I'm telling you -- the man doesn't pay the slightest bit of attention to his own stories. 

So why should we? 

I've suggested this many times before, but I want to make an official policy on the matter: if a Bendis Temporal Reference conflcits with a Temporal Reference written by any other writer -- the Bendis Reference gets ignored. Hands down, every time. He obviously just makes them up on the spot, and we shouldn't waste any time trying to make them fit if they conflict. 

What say you, MCP Board? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 11:38 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I think the problem isn't neccesarily that Bendis' references conflict with other writer's references. It's that his references conflict with his own prior references. CONSTANTLY. 

The problem comes in trying to choose which references of his to keep, and which to get rid of...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 11:44 am    
By Somebody

I'd go with the shortest time, every time.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 11:47 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
What say you, MCP Board? 
<<<

Well, I'm much quicker than the other Board members to toss out temporal references as topical, anyway, especially in the cases of holidays, school years, weather patterns, anniversaries and the like, because, most likely, that's the way they were intended: topical. 

I'd rather not see us tie ourselves down to such a specific, author-centric policy. If two temporal references clash, use the one that makes the most sense. Heck, I wouldn't lose any sleep over dropping both conflicting references, but I admit, I'm hardly the best person to ask. 

And let me caution you: If Bendis is reading these forums, I would expect him to really throw the monkey wrench into anyone's thoughts of ignoring him and make this 6-month pregnancy an important plot point, making it difficult to just ignore, in favor of other stories that show the passage of time in simple caption form: "Two days later...", "Six months later...", "Monday..." 

Good luck. 


watching: banana splits

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 06:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I would expect him to really throw the monkey wrench into anyone's thoughts of ignoring him and make this 6-month pregnancy an important plot point, making it difficult to just ignore, in favor of other stories that show the passage of time in simple caption form: "Two days later...", "Six months later...", "Monday..."  
<<<

The problem is that you just can't force all the stories we need to place between ALIAS 28 and PULSE 12 into a three-month period. Actually, many other temporal references in a variety of titles work fairly well together and as a collection force Jessica's pregnancy to be abnormally long. Having Jessica's pregnancy be the highest priority temporal reference would throw everything else into chaos. 

I'm still sticking with the theory that Jessica is giving birth to the new Franklin Richards. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 07:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I don't dispute any of what you say, except to note that its true chaotic nature is only apparent when plotted on a calendar. 

I'm just saying, be prepared for this to be a significant plot point, and not just something that can be tossed aside as a mistaken comment, either by Bendis or sundry characters. 


watching: path of destruction

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:56 pm    
By jephyork
Director

"Use the one that makes the most sense" is a good policy too. And yes, the reason I dislike (and therefore distrust) Bendis' references is that he contradicts *himself* 99% of the time. It's obvious that he doesn't care -- so in my book, his refs should be ignored in favor of those laid down by writers who presumably *do* care. 

I'd amend my previous policy suggestion to something like "ignore Bendis Temporal References unless they work with what's already established" -- my main point being, "don't use Bendis Refs to establish timeframes and then bolt other writers' references onto those timeframes" -- because, being Bendis-created timeframes, they're likely made up on the spot and inherently flawed. 

And even if "the length of Jessica's pregnancy" somehow does become a significant plot point ... I'm *still* prepared to ignore it. After all, it's easy to interpret "something goes wrong with the baby because it's premature" into "something goes wrong with the baby because of complications". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 01:30 am    
By Col_Fury

You know, this just makes me dread Secret War 5 all the much more...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I think people are overlooking the fact that Bendis doesn't care because, from a storytelling point of view, it's trivial. It's a continuity error that takes ages to demonstrate, involves cross-referencing between multiple titles, and will not be apparent to the overwhelming majority of readers. It simply does not create a narrative problem. 

The tone of this thread is to blame Bendis for writing a story which does not comply with the calendar. With respect, I think the problem is the very idea of a calendar. It is based on certain assumptions about the nature of Marvel time which simply don't reflect the attitudes of Marvel, their editors, their writers, or (I suspect) the majority of readers. You are imposing rules of your own onto the Marvel Universe, and then complaining when the Universe fails to comply. It doesn't work that way. 

There are plenty of acclaimed stories in classic literature where the timeline falls apart on close inspection. It only creates a problem if the glitch is apparent to a normally attentive reader. This sort of thing simply isn't, and the criticism of Bendis (on this ground) is misplaced, in my view. 

This is a point I've made before but: the reason the months don't add up properly is because it's the Marvel Universe and there are no months. There are merely phrases that sound about right, when read in a spirit of artistic licence. The problem is not that Bendis is being too lax. The problem is that we are being grotesquely overliteral.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:14 am    
By jephyork
Director

Can't it be both? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:22 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, it could be, but in this case I think it's mainly us. Virtually no readers follow timelines this closely. If PULSE says it's been six months, it's been six months.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:33 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I think people are overlooking the fact that Bendis doesn't care because, from a storytelling point of view, it's trivial. It's a continuity error that takes ages to demonstrate, involves cross-referencing between multiple titles, and will not be apparent to the overwhelming majority of readers. It simply does not create a narrative problem. 
<<<

And this is why I've never been a fan of the calendar method, either Paul B's or Olshevsky's.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

Technically, Pulse says she's six months pregnant -- so it's been three months since Alias #28, where she was three months pregnant. 

Over in Bendis' New Avengers, it's been six months. Over in Bendis' Daredevil, it's been a year. It's bizarre how the various timeframes stand up within each book, but fall apart the instant you look at another book. 

I guess you and I are arguing the same thing, Paul -- I've always wanted people to stop taking temporal references literally. I'm trying to point out that Bendis' references, at least, are inherently unreliable, so folks here should -- eh? -- *stop relying* on them. 

Or, because lots of people here seem to have a need to use *some* kind of references -- I'm suggesting that we try to use references written by writers who actually put some thought and effort into making them sound plausible. 

If you create a calendar based off of Bendis Tempral References, you'll be creating something even *more* flawed than a calendar based off of temporal references would normally be. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:59 am    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I think people are overlooking the fact that Bendis doesn't care because, from a storytelling point of view, it's trivial. It's a continuity error that takes ages to demonstrate, involves cross-referencing between multiple titles, and will not be apparent to the overwhelming majority of readers. It simply does not create a narrative problem. 

The tone of this thread is to blame Bendis for writing a story which does not comply with the calendar. With respect, I think the problem is the very idea of a calendar. It is based on certain assumptions about the nature of Marvel time which simply don't reflect the attitudes of Marvel, their editors, their writers, or (I suspect) the majority of readers. You are imposing rules of your own onto the Marvel Universe, and then complaining when the Universe fails to comply. It doesn't work that way. 

There are plenty of acclaimed stories in classic literature where the timeline falls apart on close inspection. It only creates a problem if the glitch is apparent to a normally attentive reader. This sort of thing simply isn't, and the criticism of Bendis (on this ground) is misplaced, in my view. 

This is a point I've made before but: the reason the months don't add up properly is because it's the Marvel Universe and there are no months. There are merely phrases that sound about right, when read in a spirit of artistic licence. The problem is not that Bendis is being too lax. The problem is that we are being grotesquely overliteral. 
<<<

Hear Hear!

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 08:33 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Or, because lots of people here seem to have a need to use *some* kind of references -- I'm suggesting that we try to use references written by writers who actually put some thought and effort into making them sound plausible. 
<<<

I'd certainly agree with that, to the extent that in some contexts it will be apparent that a time-reference is made with a particular past event in mind. I strongly doubt, though, that this is the norm beyond the level of days or weeks. I think the vast majority of writers just pick something that sounds about right.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 08:34 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
And this is why I've never been a fan of the calendar method, either Paul B's or Olshevsky's. 
<<<

To be fair, in Olshevsky's day, there were only around 22 years of continuity to deal with, and the calendar approach was a lot more manageable. But even then, he regularly found himself having to explain away the seasons of the year as "topical references", and when you find yourself doing it that frequently, you've got to ask whether it points to a flaw in the model. 

EDITED TO ADD: Since I have a copy of "Is Heathcliff a Murderer?" to hand - a collection of plot holes and other anomalies in popular 19th century fiction - here are some examples of grotesque timeline errors that have never bothered any but the most pedantic readers. All of them would outrage many regular posters here. 

- EMMA by Jane Austen refers to an "orchard in blossom" in a scene expressly set in June, several months too late. 

- MARTIN CHUZZLEWIT by Charles Dickens has the lead character spend several chapters in America, at which point the narrative divides and continues to follow certain supporting characters in Britain. By the time they meet up again, Martin has been away for a year, but only six months have passed for the supporting cast. (This takes pages of close analysis to demonstrate.) 

- HENRY ESMOND by William Makepeace Thackeray features two characters discussing THE LIFE AND ADVENTURES OF PETER WILKINS, forty years before it was actually published. 

- THE WOMAN IN WHITE by Wilkie Collins, a hugely popular novel in 1860, has a fundamentally defective timeline which enabled the literary reviewer of the Times to prove that there was actually no time for certain characters to have participated in events which formed a crucial revelation. Collins duly revised the book for its second edition - which still contains an anomaly, describing the same events as lasting both "two days" and "two weeks." None of this affected the novel's great popularity in the slightest. In fairness, Collins was writing intricate mystery stories in which the timeline was arguably of greater plot significance, but even his contemporaries found this sort of pedantry irritating. As Anthony Trollope put it, "There is no piece of necessary dove-tailing which does not dove-tail with absolute accuracy. The construction is most minute and most wonderful. But I can never lose the taste of the construction. The author always seems to be warning me to remember that something happened at exactly half-past two o'clock on Tuesday morning." 

- THE PICKWICK PAPERS by Charles Dickens has two characters talking about the French Revolution in 1827, even though it didn't happen until 1830. 

- ROB ROY by Sir Walter Scott refers to a building that didn't exist yet. This was pointed out in time for the second edition, which includes a footnote from the author acknowledging the error, but not actually doing anything about it. 

- PENDENNIS by William Makepeace Thackeray has a lead character expressly born in 1811 (the author's date of birth). He is repeatedly described as being aged 26, which would make the year 1837. This does not prevent him encountering a Prime Minister who didn't take office until 1846, an MP who didn't enter Parliament until 1847, or from attending the 1849 Derby. The book was published in 1850 and appears to take place simultaneously in the present day, and thirteen years in the past. (There is a school of thought that says this is not an error, but a piece of wildly avant-garde experimentation.) 

- A DARK NIGHT'S WORK by Elizabeth Gaskell has a lead character who is aged 19 in 1829, even though she wasn't born until after 1814. 

- RACHEL RAY by Anthony Trollope can't make up its mind whether it's set in the 1860s (the present) or the 1840s (twenty years ago). 

I list these partly for their inherent interest, but partly because I think it lends a little perspective to the business of whether Jessica Jones has been pregnant for six months after cross-referencing between three different titles.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 02:15 pm    
By rhod

I realise this is getting more into chat territory, but does this book elaborate on the French Revolution happenng in 1830? I ask because I remember learning at school (as did several French friends in their respective schools) that the French Revolution took place in 1789.

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 03:23 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

This would be the July Revolution of 1830, when they stormed the Bastille. (And yes, it's quite clear that that's the one the characters are talking about - Dickens also admitted the error in a footnote to a later edition.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 03:32 pm    
By Somebody

I don't have it to hand, but I once saw a list of errors in Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories that boggled the mind. Only two leap to mind - one was him having Dr John H. Watson M.D.'s wife call him "James" in one story - and one day in the Sign of Four taking place in three different months (July, September and "spring" IIRC) simultaneously  

Funnily enough, I think I'd noticed one error in the whole list prior to reading it 

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 08:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I hereby suggest that we ignore all of William Makepeace Thackeray's temporal references. It's obvious he just doesn't care. 

Oddly enough, despite naysaying the idea of a Marvel calendar, in another ongoing project of mine I'm busily laying out a calendar that includes every episode of Xena and Hercules. A full-out calendar, taking into account things like full moons shown onscreen and everything. I've even worked out what year it is, and I have a friend working out how long it would take the characters to get from the town they're in in one episode to the town they're in in the next. This is a hardcore analysis. 

And even though the writers clearly didn't care when throwing in references to the seasons or passage of time -- and even though 90% of the full moons are stock shots and not part of the plot at all -- I've found that I can make 99% of the references work perfectly with one another. Crazy, huh? It just fell together like a beautiful puzzle. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 08:47 pm    
By mikhail

Well, can't we just ignore the "three months pregnant in Alias #28" detail instead, compressing the time in Alias from when she slept with Luke til when the series ended?

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 10:12 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Admitedly, we at the MCP can use whatever references we please, (or none at all) but I will still take to task Bendis's "willy-nilly" attitude towards timeline references. If he's so damn fond of them, you would think he would bother to structure it so that the overall timeline makes sense. 

Quote: 
>>>
I think people are overlooking the fact that Bendis doesn't care because, from a storytelling point of view, it's trivial. It's a continuity error that takes ages to demonstrate, involves cross-referencing between multiple titles, and will not be apparent to the overwhelming majority of readers. 
<<<

Is it really trivial though? When a work of fiction, (in this case, the Marvel Universe as a whole) starts to collapse under the weight of numerous discrepancies, you'd think it would be time to structure your universe a little more clearly. 

And speaking of the "majority of readers", I for one would like to think that Marvel would gear things more towards us, the true readers who will buy Marvel comics all of our lives, (even buying crappy storylines simply because they involve our favorite characters)...not towards 'casual' readers who will read the comic books for a couple of years, get a girlfriend, decide comics are immature, and "grow out" of reading them.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 01:23 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Is it really trivial though? When a work of fiction, (in this case, the Marvel Universe as a whole) starts to collapse under the weight of numerous discrepancies, you'd think it would be time to structure your universe a little more clearly. 
<<<

They're only discrepancies to us, though, not anyone else. There are currently 235 members on the forum, here. I'd be stunned if there were as many as ten times that, who follow these things as closely as we do, and for whatever reason, haven't found their way here. That would place the grand total at 2,500 people. Still an insignificant number. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
And speaking of the "majority of readers", I for one would like to think that Marvel would gear things more towards us, the true readers who will buy Marvel comics all of our lives, (even buying crappy storylines simply because they involve our favorite characters)...not towards 'casual' readers who will read the comic books for a couple of years, get a girlfriend, decide comics are immature, and "grow out" of reading them. 
<<<

The brutal truth is that Marvel doesn't see the need to gear their product toward lifetime readers who "even buy crappy storylines," because, well, because those people will buy the books, anyway. Furthermore, there's not enough lifetime readers to support a book nowadays. See Untold Tales of Spider-Man, or Roger Stern's Marvel Universe. It's good to see Thunderbolts plugging away, and it's encouraging to see Marvel give She-Hulk another try, but the pickings are slim. 


watching: city confidential

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 04:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Is it really trivial though? When a work of fiction, (in this case, the Marvel Universe as a whole) starts to collapse under the weight of numerous discrepancies, you'd think it would be time to structure your universe a little more clearly. 
<<<

No, this is only a storytelling problem if the discrepancies are noticeable. This isn't, unless you sit down, cross-reference a number of titles, and perform some mathematics. A normally attentive reader will never notice the problem, and therefore there IS no problem. In the same way, it doesn't matter if Ally McBeal gets the details of legal procedure wrong and operates on a dementedly rapid timescale, as long as this doesn't leap out at the average viewer.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 07:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Paul O. wrote: 
>>>
a collection of plot holes and other anomalies in popular 19th century fiction - here are some examples of grotesque timeline errors that have never bothered any but the most pedantic readers. 
<<<

So is the argument that time itself in these classic fictional stories doesn't actually behave as it does in reality? Or is it that even the best writers make errors? 

If the former, then yes, calendars cannot possibly apply to those classic stories; the instrument of measurement is inappropriate to that which is measured. If the latter, then calendars can apply; you just have to explain the errors away by some method or other, including invoking the Olshevsky model of "topical references." 

As far as "pendantc readers" go, that's our audience on this forum. If we can't b!+ch about Bendis' inconsistencies, then what's the point of life? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 08:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
The brutal truth is that Marvel doesn't see the need to gear their product toward lifetime readers who "even buy crappy storylines," because, well, because those people will buy the books, anyway. Furthermore, there's not enough lifetime readers to support a book nowadays.  
<<<

Both points are absolutely correct. It's irrational to give priority to the hardcore fans who'll buy absolutely anything - it makes much more sense to see how much you can maximise the audience on top of that. 

Indeed, there's a strong argument to be made that an obsession with chasing the hardcore audience is one of the things that has driven away casual readers, when superhero comics spent twenty years or so being written by fans, for fans.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 11:51 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Whether you go with time references on a calender or not, we still have a line of chronological events that need sorted out. And I still don't see how many of the following events can fit into 3 months, (between Alias #28 and Pulse #12): 

Jessica appears in the following books: 

DD2 46-48: possibly pregnant...definently hinted at having a relationship with Luke Cage by this point. 

DD: Father: ?? Jessica doesn't appear pregnant. Jessica says she's a private investigator, no mention of her working for the Bugle. 

Alias 24-28: She's "3 months pregnant" in Alias 28. 

DD2 56-60: Jessica appears in DD2 59, where we see she is now living with Luke. She's maybe slightly visibly pregnant, (it's vague). 

Pulse #1-5: Jessica is living with Luke, and maybe slightly visibly pregnant, (it's vague, again). 

Secret War/Pulse #6-10: Jessica is somewhat visibly pregnant. 

Young Avengers #1-8: Jessica is definently visibly pregnant. 

New Avengers #1-6: Jessica is visibly pregnant. Luke joins the New Avengers. 

Pulse #11-13: Jessica is giving birth. 

Did I miss anything? 

Anyway, as long as the correct sequence of events line up, I suppose it doesn't matter which reference you go with, (whether it be 3 months or 6 months or whatever)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 12:05 pm    
By Somebody

All the following are, of course, dependent on other factors not pushing them elsewhere, since I've only read Young Avengers out of these. 

The "Months" are purely relative to her pregancy and don't necessarily mean anything in terms of overall time references. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
DD2 46-48: possibly pregnant...definently hinted at having a relationship with Luke Cage by this point. 

DD: Father: ?? Jessica doesn't appear pregnant. Jessica says she's a private investigator, no mention of her working for the Bugle. 
<<<

DD:Father sounds pre-Alias28, and wasn't JJ and LC in a relationship (...of sorts) early in the Alias series? 


Quote: 
>>>
DD2 56-60: Jessica appears in DD2 59, where we see she is now living with Luke. She's maybe slightly visibly pregnant, (it's vague). 

Pulse #1-5: Jessica is living with Luke, and maybe slightly visibly pregnant, (it's vague, again). 
<<<

Four months 


Quote: 
>>>
Secret War/Pulse #6-10: Jessica is somewhat visibly pregnant. 
<<<

Five months 


Quote: 
>>>
Young Avengers #1-8: Jessica is definently visibly pregnant. 

New Avengers #1-6: Jessica is visibly pregnant. Luke joins the New Avengers. 
<<<

Six months 


Quote: 
>>>
Pulse #11-13: Jessica is giving birth. 
<<<

Six-and-a-bit months.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 03:31 pm    
By Col_Fury

Jessica appears in Marvel Knights 4 #22, and she's definitely visibly pregnant. This is probably around her Young & New Avengers appearances, but I guess this depends on how the FF line up with HoM...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 26

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 03:23 pm    Post subject: Fantasy Masterpieces
By Grant

I'm wondering why the entry for Marvel Super Heroes #12, with Captain Marvel, at the Lone Star Comics website, states that it is a continuation from Fantasy Masterpieces. As far as I can tell, Fantasy Masterpieces were both reprint titles.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 03:33 pm    
By Ant-Man

Fantasy Masterpieces (first series) ran from #1 (Feb 1966) until #11 (Oct 1967). 
The title then changed to Marvel Super-Heroes with issue #12 

The title, not the storyline is continued from Fantasy Masterpieces
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 27

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 05:49 pm    Post subject: Iron Man Crash
By Grant

Does the Iron Man graphic novel "Crash" fit into Marvel continuity, or was this somehow separate? If it's separate, I'm curious as to why.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 06:19 pm    
By Ant-Man

"Crash" is an alternate future story. 

Here's part of the summary from http://www.invincibleironman.com/ that shows the future placement: 

"Tony Stark is aging and is hooked on a "youth" drug, and is about to sign over some super-sophisticated technology to a Japanese firm."
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 28

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 12:15 pm    Post subject: Avengers Time
By Grant

There are two Avengers specials, one was called Timeslip and the other was called Timeslide. I know one of them was entered here as canonical, but what is the difference between the two series and are both in continuity?

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Posted: 11 Nov 2005 12:39 pm    
By Ant-Man

Timeslide is canonical, and was connected to The Crossing storyline. 

Timeslip was alternate takes on characters, and is not part of the Marvel canon.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 07:44 pm    
By Grant

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

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Thread 29

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 12:16 pm    Post subject: Shadow Realm
By Grant

Do the Shadow Realm issues of Marvel Super Special figure into Marvel continuity? I saw Marvel Super Special listed in the key, but I'm not sure if that's for the Star Lord issue or Shadow Realm.

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Posted: 11 Nov 2005 12:43 pm    
By Ant-Man

Marvel Super Special is in the key because of the appearances of several Marvel Universe characters in issue #1 (the Kiss issue)
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 07:46 pm    
By Grant

That's interesting. Were they interacting with Kiss? I don't think Marvel would care to consider that canon these days, or ever. What does everyone else think?

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 07:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Why wouldn't it be canon? 


watching: smallville

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Thread 30

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 06:57 pm    Post subject: X-Men and Alpha Flight
By Grant

There was a two issue X-Men and Alpha Flight mini series in 1985, and then again in 1998 with the same title. It looks like the 1998 edition was just a reprint of the first one. Am I right?

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Posted: 11 Nov 2005 07:07 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Nope. Two separate two-issue limited serieses. 

There was a 96-page one-shot reprint of the first series, "the Gift", pubished at the time of the second series -- that may be where the confusion comes in. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 08:11 pm    
By Grant

Yes, that was what I wasn't sure about. But all is clear now. Thanks.

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Thread 31

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 06:47 pm    Post subject: X-Men Giveaway
By Grant

Does the 1994 Uncanny X-Men Giveaway have anything to do with the real Marvel Universe?

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Posted: 11 Nov 2005 07:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Which giveaway is that? The one that came free inside NFL Pro Action #1? If so, no. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 08:09 pm    
By Grant

I didn't realize there were quite a few of them until after I asked that question. I'm wondering about all of them. From your answer, it sounds as though some are and some aren't. I know that none of the various Marvel giveaways are listed in the Key, but is there actually any question as to the continuity of these comics? I'm referring to any Marvel giveaway concerning any MU character.

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 09:29 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Off the top of my head, not a single giveaway book has ever been referenced in a "real" Marvel comic. Some folks like to think that absolutely none of them are in-continuity, and some folks (like me) analyze them on a case-by-case basis. As far as I know the MCP doesn't currently list any, but I own quite a few and consider them part of MU canon, in my own little head. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 32

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 12:07 pm    Post subject: Adventures of the X-Men
By Grant

I noticed the series "Adventures of the X-Men" that ran in the 90s for 12 issues and was wondering if it was in continuity or a reprint title.

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Posted: 11 Nov 2005 12:52 pm    
By Somebody

Neither - it was based on the contemporary cartoon (I forget if it was retellings or not)

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Posted: 11 Nov 2005 03:42 pm    
By JLH

"X-Men Adventures" was retellings. "Adventures of the X-Men", like "Adventures of Spider-Man", were new stories taking place in the 90s toon universe. They even had a crossover issue (not connected to the Spidey toon "Mutant Agent"/"Mutants' Revenge" two parter, which in of itself was a sort of crossover between cartoon, comics, and comic strip!) 

Course, every now and then someone brings up "Adventures of the X-Men" #12, which involves Eternity and the universe being rebooted to make it the current Marvel Universe or some such. Ooh boy, HEADACHE!

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Posted: 11 Nov 2005 04:44 pm    
By Somebody

Yeah, but only masochists, idiots and Handbook writers would bring that up voluntarily 

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Posted: 12 Nov 2005 09:26 am    
By Enda80

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1587&highlight=tribunal 

here you go if you want to know what the issues are

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Posted: 12 Nov 2005 10:35 am    
By Somebody

^ Case in point 

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 08:03 pm    
By Grant

Thanks for giving so much information to answer my question. I had no idea it would get that intricate. Speaking of the recent Handbooks, if there was any that pertained to Nick Fury, does his entry or SHIELD's refer to the Fury MAX limited series? I know there was some discussion about that issue here a while back, but I can't remember if the canonicity of Fury was ambiguous or straightforwardly not part of continuity.

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 09:27 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Since, in that series, Fury is old and some young punk is running SHIELD, I'd say it falls safely into the "alternate future" category. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 04:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, there's no doubt that FURY is not set in the mainstream Marvel Universe.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 33

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 04:07 am    Post subject: Devil Dinosaur
By Paul O'Brien
Director

In what I can only take to be an attempt to reconcile FALLEN ANGELS with the more recent DEVIL DINOSAUR one-shot, FROM THE FILES OF ULYSSES BLOODSTONE takes the line that Devil Dinosaur is from Earth-78411, which is apparently still stuck in the Mesozoic. This has the neat advantage of allowing him to be simultaneously "from the past" and "from another world", meaning that everyone's right. Plus, it explains why his "past" is so spectacularly inaccurate.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 10:07 am    
By lkseitz

Well that cinches it. Now I've got to buy this comic. I wonder how that "stuck in the Mesozoic" thing works? Gonna take a while to wrap my mind around this.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 11:43 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Just to be clear, "stuck in the Mesozoic" is my phrase. The FILES simply seems to suggest that Devil Dinosaur comes from a parallel world which is going through its own equivalent of the Mesozoic era.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 34

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 05:15 pm    Post subject: Marvel Knights Spider-Man and Pulse #5
By jephyork
Director

Forgive me if this has been resolved before -- I remember the discussion starting, but not finishing. 

Back when Pulse #5 and MKSM #1 came out, we remarked how both issues featured the Green Goblin captured, publically unmasked and sent to jail. We wondered if there was any way to entwine the two sequences. 

Well, I just finished reading the new MKSM hardcover featuring #1-12, and I found some evidence in #12 I don't think we've discussed before. 

When I was reading #1, the backstory of the Spidey/Goblin fight was that the Goblin was holding eighteen people hostage in a church and demanding that Spidey kill himself on live television to save their lives. This to me didn't sound at all like the lead-up to the Goblin/Spidey/Luke Cage fight in Pulse #5, so I decided the two fights must have been separate after all. 

Then, in #12, when the Goblin has MJ hostage and Spidey asks what he has to do to save her, the Goblin says something to the effect of "I want to pick up right where we left off when I escaped from Cage -- you trading your life for an innocent's." 

At first I thought that was a typo for "the cage", but then I realized that Mark Millar had thrown us a bone -- he was saying that the two fights WERE the same! 

The end of Pulse #5 showed the Goblin downed by a punch from Cage, and then cut to headlines screaming his identity. With this line of the Goblin's, though, I suggest that we place the battle in MKSM #1 between those two scenes. The Goblin is punched by Cage in Pulse #5, escapes off-panel and takes hostages, is pursued and ultimately defeated by Spidey in MKSM #1, and we cut back to Pulse #5 showing the headlines resulting from his capture. 

Hopefully the sequence of events in Pulse #5 is straightforward enough that we can place all of the battle in MKSM #1 between panels. 

Again, if we already discussed this, I apologize for the brain-fart. But I just thought it was great to see a definite indication that the two scenes of Norman being captured and unmasked were, in fact, two parts of the same battle. 

 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 01:00 pm    
By ajbrown

That's what I assumed must be the case when reading MKSM#1, but it was very nice of Millar to put that line in issue 12 to resolve any difficulties. The sequence is definitely: 

Pulse#5 fight with Cage, 
Norman escapes off-panel 
MKSM#1 fight with Spidey 
Pulse #5 celebration scenes at the Bugle 

The only thing that annoys me is that the Spidey/GG fight is off-panel. 

AJ
_________________
AJ

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Thread 35

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 04:09 pm    Post subject: Heroes Reborn/Heroes Return
By wolframbane

I have a question regarding Heroes Reborn/Heroes Return. At the end of 'Onslaught', the FF, Avengers and Dr. Doom's bodies were apprently destroyed while absorbing the energies of Onslaught, and the heroes died. Franklin Richards created the 'Franklinverse' and the souls of the FF, Avengers and Doom were essentially reborn, reliving their lives (albiet differently) on this new Earth. 

When the FF and Avengers returned to Earth-616, were their original bodies restored, or did they simply return in their 'Reborn' bodies? And do they now retain the memories of both lifetimes? Or are their memories of the alternate lives dormant in their subconcious, like Bishop's memories of AoA? Is the shield Captain America currently using his original one from Earth-616, or the 'Reborn' version? And Doom did not return with the Avengers and FF initially, he brought Counter-Earth to the universe of Earth-616. Is he in his original body or the Reborn body?

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 04:47 pm    
By Somebody

It's a mess, frankly. Iron Man remembers, Cap explictly doesn't. Some remember, others don't. 

As for the body thing - well, Sue Richards completely forgot her pregnancy when she got back, and Reed's hair went grey again, but Iron Man wasn't a teenager and Wasp was still human.

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 08:25 pm    
By garbonzo

Not to mention the fact that the Heroes Reborn earth still is in orbit opposite earth 616. It was stabilized in the waning issues of Thunderbolts v.1 and has more or less been forgotten. But, with the Exiles doing some reality hopping, and planning on visiting the Heroes Reborn world, we will probably get some sort of update as to its current status. My bet is that it has been "returned" to its original universe during the whole House of M thing. I mean, everything else got reset, why not that too?

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 05:03 pm    
By Somebody

I bet that it gets blown up. Last stop on their World(s) Tour'n'all.

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Thread 36

Posted: 19 Nov 2005 09:05 pm    Post subject: PHANTOM EAGLE
By Dhall

PHANTOM EAGLE 
**M/SH 16-FB 
M/SH 16 
H2 135 
GR2 12

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Thread 37

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 09:38 pm    Post subject: Sweet XVI canon? Then Venus has a bts appearance
By Enda80

http://www.barbaraslate.com/sweetxvi.htm 

(Sweet XVI#4, bts) <At some point before 438 CE) Venus sent a lightning bolt to strike two lovers who defied her. They were oddly not seriously injured. 

I am not sure when Sweet XVI took place, but the loose talk about the Olympian gods places it before the Theodosian Code.

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 03:09 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
the loose talk about the Olympian gods places it before the Theodosian Code. 
<<<

Clearly. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 05:56 am    
By Enda80

The Theodosian Code was when the worship of the Olympian gods got stamped out. 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1048& 
There is the common misconception that Constantine officially made Christianity the state religion of Rome in 313 AD. 

The Romans converted officially during the reign of Theodosius (hence Theodosian Code) between 380 and 394. He mandated the destruction of pagan temples and outlawed pagan customs throughout the empire. Even the eternal flame kept by the Vestal Virgins was extinguished. Therefore, any story in which people are loosely referencing of worshipping the Olympian gods must precede this period.

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 09:26 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
Venus sent a lightning bolt to strike two lovers who defied her. 


What evidence do we have that it was Venus? 


watching: tennessee tuxedo

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 11:43 am    
By Enda80

A statue of Venus was seen around the incident.

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 12:11 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

SWEET XVI was a historical romance comic, of all things, but admittedly there's no obvious reason why it can't be canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 07:10 pm    
By ShadZ

It was a humorous historical romance comic, and IIRC it included many humorous anachronisms and probably can't be reconciled with canon
_________________
ShadZ

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Thread 38

Posted: 21 Nov 2005 02:16 pm    Post subject: General Ross in Thor
By rhod

General Ross appears in JIM 86 (testing a cobalt bomb in the desert somewhere). Not sure where this would appear in his chronology (or if it matters) but publication dates put this round about Hulk #4.

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 07:39 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Where do you get this from? All I see is a general with a white mustache. Gen. Ross is a three-star general, but only two stars are showing in this one panel. 

If I were inclined to name this character myself (and I'm not), I would lean toward Gen. Fredericks, who's a two-star general with a (usually) white mustache. In addition, his demeanor seems to match Fredericks better than Ross. 


watching: paula zahn

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Thread 39

Posted: 28 Dec 2004 10:18 am    Post subject: Jack the Ripper?
By Enda80

Does he deserve an entry? 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/jtripper.htm 

If so, this does raise a question; do pre-Silver Age horror stories reprinted in , for example, Dracula Lives count as canonical?

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 10:59 am    
By jephyork
Director

My answers to both are: 

1. Yes. If he appeared in a Silver Age-up Marvel Comic, he deserves an entry -- everyone does, historical figure or not. 

2. Tough call. Clearly, Timely-Atlas Golden and Atomic Age superhero stories are canon -- at least, the majority of them are -- but what of non-hero stories from that era? 

I'm tempted to say No, unless they're explicitly *referenced* -- not just reprinted -- by later canon material. 

(An example of a reference, to me, is having the story reprinted with framing pages indicating that the Watcher is watching the story -- indicating that it occured somewhere in the Marvel Multiverse.) 

But straight-up reprints of pre-Silver Age horror stuff? Probably not canon. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 01:27 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I would treat all Marvel's pre-FF stuff as we're supposed to treat the super-hero stuff: it's canon unless specifcally cited otherwise. 

Remember first that the "rule" on the super-hero stories -- as per Roy Thomas and Kurt Busiek's notations in the original Invaders series -- is that everything is canon unless it's specifically contradicted or noted as being out of continuity. I think the same holds true for everything else. To wit... 

Patsy Walker is a contemporary Marvel character, and it's been noted that her adventures pre-1961 were the creations of her mother. The same is true of Hedy and the other Patsy-related characters. 

Many of the classic monster stories have been brought into the modern day. Fin Fang Foom being the most notable. But we've also seen Groot, Korilla, Orrgo, Spragg, Rorgg, etc. with references to their pre-FF stories. 

Many of the Westerns have been brought forward. Kid Colt, Two-Gun Kid, the original Ghost Rider, etc. have even had modern stories to explain apparent continuity discrpencies that were holdovers from the 50s. 

Then we've got a slew of generic romance titles. They may as well be included, since there are rarely any recurring characters in those. 

Plus I'll note that many of the titles we're talking about were carried forward into the superhero era. Recall that Goodman didn't simply stop publishing everything in 1961 to focus on superheroes. We don't begin to see a real superhero trend until almost a year and half later when the FF, Thor (via JIM), Ant-Man (via TTA) and Hulk appear in the same month. And Goodman was still publishing Linda Carter, Kid Colt, Millie the Model, Patsy Walker, Love Romances, Gunsmoke Western, etc. We don't even get to half superhero/half non-superhero comics until mid-1963. 

I think it's reasonable to assume canonocity of ALL Goodman-published books unless there's a reasonable reason to explain why they shouldn't be included.

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 03:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Patsy Walker is a contemporary Marvel character, and it's been noted that her adventures pre-1961 were the creations of her mother. The same is true of Hedy and the other Patsy-related characters. 
<<<


Just to clarify, Sean...I assume you make this point to show an instance in which pre-FF stories are proven to be non-canonical. The adventures in the Patsy Walker comics didn't really happen in the MU -- they were fictional stories in the MU. Until we learned that the stories were fictional, we would have assumed they were canonical...right?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 05:25 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The problem with accepting all of the Jack the Ripper appearances as 'real' is that each story presents its own version of who or what the Ripper really was. In order to accept all of his appearances, you'd have to have him simultaneously being an agent of Dormammu, a time-travelling swarm of parasites, an identity given to a hypnotized agent of Fu Manchu, and a hunchbacked vampire. I don't see how the Zaniac and Mad Slayer stories can be reconciled with one another without making the Jacks in question into separate characters. 

-Sean

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Posted: 28 Dec 2004 07:21 pm    
By Enda80

Well, let us see........................ 

I went through Master of Kung-Fu#100. It did not, so as far as I discern, say that Jack the Ripper was an agent of Fu Manchu, despite what Jack's Appendix entry says. It only said that Fu Manchu knew Jack the Ripper's true identity. 

Thor I#372 does not explicitly state that the Zaniac was Jack the Ripper. We only see one panel with a man holding a knife in the 19th century. Did Simonson intend the man with the knife to be Jack the Ripper? Probably. Did he explicitly say so? No. Remember, the TVA suspected it of being Jack the Ripper. 

Adventures Into Terror#29....well, that was reprinted in Dracula Lives#3, but whether a pre-hero story getting reprinted in an otherwise canonical book allows it in as part of Earth-616 history seems a bit dubious even to me. 
By the way, Thomas Malverne never became a vampire. The vampires killed him when he did not taste human blood. 

Astonishing#18-another pre-hero title 

So what does that leave us with; 
Doctor Strange III#23/2 
Eternals Annual #1 
All-Select Comics #7: Referenced in Bucky's Golden Age Handbook entry 
Vampire Tales #9/3: Does anyone consider those non-series horror stories from the black and white magazines canonical? Well, it was not a reprint....... 
Marvel Graphic Novel: Cloak & Dagger: Predator & Prey 

I do admit, most of these appearances involve time travel, one of them is only one-panel.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2004 12:23 am    
By Jim Smith

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
The problem with accepting all of the Jack the Ripper appearances as 'real' is that each story presents its own version of who or what the Ripper really was. In order to accept all of his appearances, you'd have to have him simultaneously being an agent of Dormammu, a time-travelling swarm of parasites, an identity given to a hypnotized agent of Fu Manchu, and a hunchbacked vampire. I don't see how the Zaniac and Mad Slayer stories can be reconciled with one another without making the Jacks in question into separate characters. 
<<<

Since all of these stories are based on the fact that the murders were never solved in real life, isn't it possible that all of these guys were running around in England killing women, and that the authorities simply assumed it was the work of a single person they named Jack the Ripper?

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2004 12:39 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
the authorities simply assumed it was the work of a single person they named Jack the Ripper? 
<<<

The authorities didn't name him. It was eponymous. 


watching: sports center

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 07:51 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Patsy Walker is a contemporary Marvel character, and it's been noted that her adventures pre-1961 were the creations of her mother. The same is true of Hedy and the other Patsy-related characters. 
<<<

Just to clarify, Sean...I assume you make this point to show an instance in which pre-FF stories are proven to be non-canonical. The adventures in the Patsy Walker comics didn't really happen in the MU -- they were fictional stories in the MU. Until we learned that the stories were fictional, we would have assumed they were canonical...right? 

Right. Because we are expressly told that those old Patsy stories were non-canonical, the assumption is that we should have believed them to be canonical in the absence of other evidence. Coupled with the express canonocity of other monster and Western stories, it doesn't require much extension of logic to apply that to everything else Goodman published.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2004 08:56 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Another interpretation, though, is that we were not intended to suppose Patsy was canon, until Patsy herself was drawn into the Marvel Universe proper, first through Fantastic Four Annual, and then, more clearly, in Amazing Adventures. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 10:19 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Another interpretation, though, is that we were not intended to suppose Patsy was canon, until Patsy herself was drawn into the Marvel Universe proper, first through Fantastic Four Annual, and then, more clearly, in Amazing Adventures. 
<<<

Fair enough for the mid-1960s, but I'm thinking that, by the time it was expressly noted that her previous adventures were non-canon, it was a necessary explanation to discount what would, by then, have been considered canonical stories.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2004 06:22 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
the authorities simply assumed it was the work of a single person they named Jack the Ripper? 
<<<

The authorities didn't name him. It was eponymous. 
<<<

Maybe, maybe not. A popular theory is that the letter and postcard signed "Jack the Ripper" were hoaxes by a journalist; this theory was later supported by the police. 

-Sean

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Posted: 29 Dec 2004 07:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm aware of the theory; I'm not aware of any evidence to support the theory. And I must admit, I was completely unaware that a journalist had been tabbed as the perpetrator. Most of them almost certainly are hoaxes, but I think most experts believe that at least one of the main three letters/postcards are valid, although they may have at one time been considered hoaxes. 


watching: colorado vs. utep

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Posted: 20 Oct 2005 10:28 am    
By Enda80

Okay, the horror Handbook works it this way 

JACK THE RIPPER/TOM MALVERNE 
ADVENTURES INTO TERROR 29 
DRSTR3 23/2-FB 
T 372-FB 
E @1 
ALL-SELECT COMICS 7 
ADVENTURES INTO TERROR 29 
ASTONISHING 18 

Adventures Into Terror#29 is a story that takes place over a period of a few months. Vampires slay Malverne at the end of the story on December 31. So, the Ripper's slayings and trips to the future take place in-between the events of that story. 

Astonishing 18 features the ghost of the Ripper. 

By the way, since the Handbook establishes that Dormammu sent the magical creature that possessed Tom Malverne that drove him in his actions as the Ripper, Dormammu may deserve BTS credit for Adventures Into Terror 29. 

JACK THE RIPPER/ 
CLOAK AND DAGGER: PREDATOR AND PREY-FB 
CLOAK AND DAGGER: PREDATOR AND PREY 

JACK THE RIPPER/ 
VT 9/3 

JACK THE RIPPER/DOCTOR JOHN CARMODY 
JIM2 2/1 

So, there have been at least four known Jack the Rippers, with only two named (Tom Malverne and John Carmody).

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Posted: 22 Oct 2005 02:17 pm    
By wolframbane

Jack the Ripper appeared in the episode 'Descent' of the X-Men animated series. It revealed that Mr. Sinister had created Jack the Ripper, and they were pursued by an ancestor of Professor X. 

I understand that the animated series is non-canon, but many of the episodes were actually based upon events from the Marvel Universe. I was wondering if anyone knew if 'Descent' was based on an actual comic issue?

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2005 06:44 am    
By JLH

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
I was wondering if anyone knew if 'Descent' was based on an actual comic issue? 
<<<

It was loosely based on the idea set about for "The Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix". Both were put into production about the same time, so they've got a similar type of premise (show Sinister's Victorian days), but the details of the events are widely different.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2005 11:24 am    
By metaldragon

In the case of Patsy Walker, we were shown in the Hellcat 4-part mini-series that Patsy and Hedy were actually child actors and that Patsy's mum had created a tv series based on their lives and filmed in their town. The Patsy comic book was actually the tv series within the Marvel Universe. I'm guessing it's similar with the Millie the Model comics.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 26 Oct 2005 12:22 pm    
By ShadZ

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
I'm guessing it's similar with the Millie the Model comics. 
<<<

Nope. All current evidence is that the Marvel Age (post-FF 1) Millie stories happened in continunity. And the recent Millie entry in the Official Handbook seems to bring in the pre-FF 1 stories too. 

While we are on the subject, why do so many people think the Patsy Walker and Millie the Model features were somehow related, so what applies to one applies to the other? I don't think they ever crossed-over in the Silver Age, and they were in two different genres (Patsy being teen humor (like Archie) and Millie being career girl humor (like the comic strip Tillie the Toiler)).
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 07:44 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
While we are on the subject, why do so many people think the Patsy Walker and Millie the Model features were somehow related, so what applies to one applies to the other? 
<<<

I think it's because it was established -- in DEF 65, I believe -- that Patsy Walker and Millie Collins are friends. Chili Storm (who appeared with Millie in DAZZ 34) also falls into this category of teen/young adult comics crossing over into the superhero-based, canonical MU.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 02:36 pm    
By metaldragon

Just to take the Patsy Walker idea, as Marvel has presented it, one step further... The Patsy Walker comics WOULD be cannon in the sense that they are appearances of Patsy Walker (the teen actress) who appears as "Patsy Walker" the character in the Patsy Walker tv show within the Marvel Universe. You could say they are episodes broadcast [edit: or recorded] at the time other events were happening in the Marvel Universe and therefore could fit in the Chronology.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 30 Aug 2006 11:08 am; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 02:43 pm    
By Shmi

I thought the Patsy Walker comics were supposed to be comics written by Patsy's mother within the Marvel universe. They were a TV show?

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 03:04 pm    
By metaldragon

Yea, we find that out in the Hellcat 4-part mini.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 05:45 pm    
By wolframbane

In OHOTMU: Women of Marvel under Millie the Model, it was mentioned that Chili Storms 'may' have been related in some way to Sue Storm. Does anyone know if this was actually referenced in an issue?

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 07:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You might get better results if you asked the guys at the Appendix. This kind of thing isn't really our specialty. 


watching: paula zahn

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Thread 40

Posted: 21 Nov 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: Deathlok vol 3
By Col_Fury

This was part of the 'M-Tech' line, published from 1999 to 2000, and it lasted eleven issues. While I was looking around, I could only find issue 4 listed. Now forgive me if I'm forgetting something, it's been five years or so since I've read any of these issues, but was there a revelation somewhere that told us they didn't really happen except for issue 4? Are the excluded books non-cannon for some reason? Or are they just not listed yet?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 08:56 am    
By Dhall

The most likely reason is that no one has submitted analysis for these books. If you have them, and would like to volunteer....... 

Dave

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 11:10 pm    
By Col_Fury

If that's the case, sure I can. Why not? 

If I don't hear otherwise, I'll probably get a chance to do these sometime mid to late December. 'Tis the season...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 01:31 pm    Post subject: Korvac Saga
By Grant

Why is the Korvac Saga listed separately in the key? Was there something new added in the tpb that wasn't in the Avengers? 

I noticed the X-Tinction Agenda tpb was also listed separately in this way. Is it the same reason?

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2005 02:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Was there something new added in the tpb that wasn't in the Avengers?  
<<<

Indeed. There was a final scene in the TPB that wasn't in A 177.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:08 am    
By jephyork
Director

But only the first printing...  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:16 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The original Korvac Saga tpb had an added epilogue, which was deleted from subsequent reprints. I haven't read it, but I gather it's regarded as rather poor, and as detracting from the ending. 

X-Tinction Agenda was a slightly different situation. As I recall, the extra pages in that book are basically padding, designed to fix a problem with the spacing of double-page spreads. The original artists had simply drawn double-page spreads whenever they saw fit, which was fine in comic book form. Unfortunately, once the adverts were taken out, you ended up with odd numbers of pages between double page spreads, meaning that one or other of them had to be split across a page turn. The solution was to commission some extra pages of art to pad out the story, allowing the double-page spreads to fall in line with the book pages. Nothing of any importance happens in them.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 09:33 pm    
By Grant

This clarifies the issue a lot for me. Glad I don't have to see those two tpbs to feel I've gotten the whole story. 

What about the Amazing Spider-Man: Revelations tpb. What was the addition there, and why?

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 01:34 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

OK, so nothing important happens in those X-Tinction padding pages, but are they actual story pages? With sequential art and dialogue? Rabid X-Completists need to know these things!
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 04:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I believe they're actual story pages, yes, but totally inconsequential ones.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 07:19 am    
By Andy Holcombe

Grant wrote: 
>>>
What about the Amazing Spider-Man: Revelations tpb. What was the addition there, and why? 
<<<

There are a couple of epligoues: one involving baby May's funeral and the other involving Norman Osborn

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 12:26 pm    
By Enda80

Anything special in Fall From Grace tradepapberback?

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 04:15 pm    
By DCW3

For you real completists, there's a totally inconsequential page of this type in the CABLE AND THE NEW MUTANTS TBP.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 07:19 pm    
By JLH

Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
There are a couple of epligoues: one involving baby May's funeral and the other involving Norman Osborn 
<<<

It was Ben Reilly's funeral, actually. Peter scatters his ashes (even though they were pretty much blown to the wind already). And there's also a scene of Ben fighting Norman that wasn't in the original book. Basically, it's new pages of Peter Parker: Spider-Man #75.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 10:05 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Quote: 
>>>
For you real completists, there's a totally inconsequential page of this type in the CABLE AND THE NEW MUTANTS TBP. 
<<<

Huzzah, I've got that one! As for X-Tinction Agenda, inconsequential or not: It Must Be Mine!
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 03:10 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hey, for you REAL completists, the X-Men: Fatal Attractions TPB has one new WORD BALLOON. Yep -- enjoy. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 10:11 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Hey, already got that one as well! I must remember not to sell those...
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 05:56 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Hey, for you REAL completists, the X-Men: Fatal Attractions TPB has one new WORD BALLOON. Yep -- enjoy. 
<<<


Oh, please enlighten us.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Nov 2005 01:59 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
The original Korvac Saga tpb had an added epilogue, which was deleted from subsequent reprints. I haven't read it, but I gather it's regarded as rather poor, and as detracting from the ending.  


Actually it was just one page with Moondragon attending Michael's grave and mourning the loss of his grand vision, flawed as it was. I don't think it detracted anything. It simply gave us a little more time with the only person who remembered everything and how it impacted her. I for one would love to see it reprinted! (I'm a major Moondragon fan)
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 09:31 pm    
By John Simons

Actually it was four pages and there was more to it than what you describe. 

http://www.avengersassemble.us/korvtrde.html

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 01:49 am    
By metaldragon

Woah! OK, that's bizarre, I didn't remember the rest of that! Wild.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Nov 2005 06:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The new word balloon in the "Fatal Attractions" TPB was added to UX #304 p.44 panel 4. That panel, Colossus stalking up behind Bishop, was blown up into a full page to make two other 2-page spreads fall correctly -- and to beef it up they added Colossus yelling "Bishop, no!" 

THIS IS NEW MATERIAL AND MUST BE ADDED TO THE MCP pant pant drool 

-Jeph!

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Thread 42

Posted: 19 Nov 2005 10:59 pm    Post subject: Black Knight
By Dhall

I only have reprints of a few of the original Black Knight series, but shouldn't Modred, King Arthur, and Merlin have listings for this series? 

Also shouldn't Arthur, Modred, and Merlin get listed for the flashback in M/SH 17? 

Dave

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 05:30 pm    
By wolframbane

These sites amy help if you are tracking the chronology of Arthurian era characters. Also, is Merlyn from Excalibur officially recognized as the Arthurian Merlin? 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/arthurpendragon.htm 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/lancel.htm 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinyn.htm 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/blackknightpercy.htm 
http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/otherw.htm 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinds.htm

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 06:34 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We need to use the books to track chronologies, not other websites. 


watching: space ghost

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 12:48 am    
By wolframbane

Sorry about that Admin. What I meant was that these sites could be used as a reference guide to knowing what issues to review to determine the chronology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Nov 2005 06:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

After an extremely lengthy debate, it was decided that Otherworld's Merlyn was *not* King Arthur's Merlin. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 08:31 pm    
By Dhall

But does anyone have the BLack Knight series, so that they could put it in the MCP? 

Dave

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 01:58 am    
By shandrakor

Black Knight 4-issue miniseries from mid-1990? I can do a general analysis of that if you need. I don't know the Avengers of the period well enough to do accurate placement, but I can give you all the clues I see.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 08:05 am    
By Enda80

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
After an extremely lengthy debate, it was decided that Otherworld's Merlyn was *not* King Arthur's Merlin. 
<<<


As you can see, a notation was put in to the effect that while Merlyn claims to have been Merlin, that has yet to be backed up substantially. Nobody objective has backed this up. Uatu the Watcher once said in What If II#35,"Merlin, wizardly advisor to the legendary King Arthur, who lived backward...(sidewise, as well, if one accepts the word of all those who have claimed the name")......

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 08:51 am    
By Dhall

I was referring to the one from 1955.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Nov 2005 12:58 pm    
By shandrakor

Ahh. Then, no. I don't have that one.

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 23 Nov 2005 09:41 pm    Post subject: DRSTR 182-FB
By Dhall

Juggernaut 
UX 32 
UX 33 
UA 3 
UA 1 
UA 4 
DEF2 10 
UX 46 
** DRSTR 182-FB 
DRSTR 182 
AA2 16-FB 
AA2 16 
H2 172-FB 
H2 172 

Dr. Strange 
DRSTR 178 
A 61 
DRSTR 180 
DRSTR 181 
** DRSTR 182-FB 
DRSTR 182 
DRSTR 183

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Thread 44

Posted: 24 Nov 2005 09:53 pm    Post subject: CA 114-FB
By Dhall

Carter, Sharon 
CA 113 
**CA 114-FB 
CA 114 
CA 115 

Sharon appears in a recorded message..... 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Posted: 24 Nov 2005 10:02 pm    Post subject: CA 115-FB
By Dhall

Red Skull II 
CA 103 
CA 104 
CA 108-BTS 
**CA 115-FB 
CA 114 
CA 115 
CA 116

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Thread 46

Posted: 24 Nov 2005 07:53 pm
By Dhall

I can't find a listing for Hawkeye's brother, who dies in A 64. I'm not sure what else he might appear in, but a quick web search turns up that he appears in some flashbacks in one of the Hawkeye limited series, so he should probably get an MCP listing. 

Barton, Barney 
A65-FB 
A 64

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Nov 2005 10:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Are you thinking Swordsman as well, or is it just me? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 04:46 am 
By Somebody

Barney Barton wasn't the Swordsman - he was a criminal killed by Egghead in his first appearance, that Nicieza retconned into being an undercover cop in the last Hawkeye series.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 09:00 am    
By Dhall

No, not thinking of the Swordsman. As far as I can tell, without going to the books, it appears Swordsman is listed properly for the A 65-FB. If you're confusing the two characters, then as Somebody pointed out, Barney is not the Swordsman. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 10:39 am    
By jephyork
Director

Sorry, folks -- I meant, are you thinking that Barney Barton is the NEW Swordsman, currently appearing in TB2? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 47

Posted: 24 Nov 2005 08:44 pm    Post subject: H@ 1
By Dhall

Hulk 
H2 107 
H2 108 
H@ 1 --- ???? 
H2 109 
H2 110 

Does anyone know why H@1 is listed in between H2 108 (where Hulk fights the Mandrarin in China) and H2 109 (where Hulk is in China?) 

H@1 has Hulk wandering around in Eastern Europe, and meeting the Inhumans. It certainly doesn't fit between 108 and 109. Anyone know where this belongs? 

Dave

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 10:11 pm    
By ADMNINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
It certainly doesn't fit between 108 and 109. 
<<<

It certainly can. Olshevsky says in the Hulk Index that it can't go anywhere else. 


watching: pitt v west virginia

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 10:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Apparently, Marvel still stands behind Olshevsky's placement. Essential Hulk #2 places H@ 1 between H2 108 and 109 in its chronological reprints of classic Hulk adventures.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 07:42 am    
By Dhall

Well, I don't have a better placement to suggest, but it really doesn't belong where it is. 

Looks like this needs further research.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 09:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Is the objection that Hulk is in China in H2 108, in the Great Refuge in H@ 1, then back in "the heartland of Red China" in H2 109? 

One problem could be that H@ 1 identifies the location of the Great Refuge as "within the bowels of the Alps." Wasn't the Great Refuge in the Himalayas? If the latter is true, then it's not much of a stretch to have Hulk wandering "for weeks" between H2 108 and H@ 1 from China to the Himalayas, then to wander back into China for H2 109.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 10:37 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Here's what Olshevsky had to say for H 108: 

Quote: 
>>>
At the end of this story, Hulk is in China and wanders away from the Mandarin/SHIELD battleground; issue #109 starts with Hulk still in China, but this continuity break between #108, 109 is the only place into which the Hulk's Inhumans adventure (in Incredible Hulk (Annual) #1) can be fitted; he seems to have done a lot more wandering than at first meets the eye. 
<<<

Since the Essential Hulk seems to offer official confirmation of that placement, simply finding a good place for H@ 1 won't be sufficient. We'd have to do that, and show why the current placement simply cannot work, despite what Olshevsky and Marvel say. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 25 Nov 2005 12:22 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
Wasn't the Great Refuge in the Himalayas? 


As I recall, the Great Refuge is described (in various books) as being in the Alps, the Himalyas, and the Andes. 

If we take it as the Himalayas, then I have NO problem with the placement. 

If not, then we're being asked (by Olshevsky and Marvel) to put in a big wandering gap which doesn't seem to be warranted by the books themselves. It seems odd that this could only come between 108 and 109. 

I'm willing to chalk this up to the writers not remembering (or disagreeing)where the Great Refuge is supposed to be. 

Dave

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Thread 48

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 06:11 am    Post subject: Ulysses Bloodstone Notes and the Monster Hunters
By Enda80

The Monster Hunters Files special reveals Bloodstone as having encountered a few of the Kirby era monsters. To wit: 

Orrgo (actually this confirms, as the FF Handbook and Book of the Dead did, that the spear-carrying man in the Def 2 9-FB was Ulysses Bloodstone.) 
Incidentally, the Monster Hunters Files correct an error, Defenders 2 9-FB seemed to indicate that Orrgo's defeat in the fb in that issue took place within the last thousand years. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/orrgopre.htm 
The flashback in Defenders II#9 must take place more than a "millennium" ago (i.e. within the past thousand years), since Orrgo is clearly menacing prehistoric, caveman-type humans. I suppose it COULD have been that recent if Orrgo was in the Savage Land, but the warrior who defeats him is obviously supposed to be a young Ulysses Bloodstone, so it probably takes place early in the post-Hyborian Age era instead, not long after the Bloodgem is fused to Ulysses' chest circa 8000 BC. 
--Continental Op 

By the way, the reminds me of a problem that may come up whenever people may get around to chronologizing Varnae. Bizarre Adventures#33/4 actually featured a prologue which featured him attacking what seem to be cavemen. However, later stories established that Varnae was not a vampire or probably even alive when the cavemen were around, but rather became a vampire not much later than 18,500 BCE. Therefore, the cavemen in that prologue may have been in the Savage Land (note that the Savage Land was a well-known amusement park amongst the people of Valusia and Atlantis). 

Fin Fang Foom: Mentions that he met Bloodstone, but does not say he was bts in that Strange Tales story. 

Taboo: mentions that Bloodstone met with Lewis Conrad, but does not state he was BTS in that story. 

Xemnu: indicates that Bloodstone met with Joe Harper, but does not indicate he was BTS in that story. 

Yeti: mentions that Bloodstone met the Yeti, but does not place him as BTS in any of those stories. 

Brute that Walks: mentions that Bloodstone met with Howard Avery, but does not place him BTS in that story. 

Diablo: reveals that Bloodstone was the monster hunter in that story 

Living Totem: mentions that Bloodstone tracked it as the "Redstone Kid", but does not place him BTS. 

Gor-Kill: revealed that Bloodstone may have been the monster hunter in that story 

In addition, this special canonizes many monster stories that previously were not Earth-616 canonical: 

Bombu 
Gargantus 
Emil Vogel 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/emilvogelcod.htm 
Krang 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/krangant.htm 
Shadow monsters 
http://monsterblog.oneroom.org/meet_the_monsters/the_living_shadows.html 
Manoo 
Tales of Suspense I#7? 
Journey Into Mystery I#11 also features a Shadow World 
Kurt Hanson Yeti story 
Lost monks and Yeti curse? 
Monstrollo 
Journey Into Mystery#64 
Kraa the Unhuman (they mention him as rumored as existing on Monster Isle) 
Bull Drago 
http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/manoo.html 
Man-oo the Gorilla 


BLOODSTONE, ULYSSES 
DEF2 9-FB 
CA:SL2 6/3-FB 
CA:SL2 7-FB 
X:HC 2 
M/U 7-FB 
M/U 4 
M/U 4-FB 
M/U 4 
M/U 5 
M/U 6 
M/U 7 
M/:LG 2 
{M/PRS 1} 
M/PRS 2 
RH 1/2 
RH 2/2 
RH 3/2 
RH 4/2 
RH 5/2 
RH 6/2 
RH 8/2 
CA 357/2 
CA 358

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 10:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Diablo: reveals that Bloodstone was the monster hunter in that story 
<<<

WHICH story? 


Quote: 
>>>
this special canonizes many monster stories that previously were not Earth-616 canonical: 
<<<

I see you provided us with issue numbers for some of these stories, but rather than giving us a list of which monsters are canonical, how about providing us a list of which ISSUES are now canonical? 

Personally, given the statements in two of the MarvelMonsters specials that, prior to the age of heroes the world was overrun with monsters, I'm inclined to think that Marvel just canonized ALL of their Atlas-era monster material. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 01:39 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/diablosuspense.htm 

Fin Fang Foom: Mentions that he met Bloodstone, but does not say he was bts in that Strange Tales story. Strange Tales#89 

Taboo: mentions that Bloodstone met with Lewis Conrad, but does not state he was BTS in that story. Strange Tales#75 and #77 

Xemnu: indicates that Bloodstone met with Joe Harper, but does not indicate he was BTS in that story. : Journey into Mystery#62 and #66 

Yeti: mentions that Bloodstone met the Yeti, but does not place him as BTS in any of those stories. :Tales to Astonish#13 

Brute that Walks: mentions that Bloodstone met with Howard Avery, but does not place him BTS in that story. Journey into Mystery#65 

Diablo: reveals that Bloodstone was the monster hunter in that story in Tales of Suspense#9 

Living Totem: mentions that Bloodstone tracked it as the "Redstone Kid", but does not place him BTS. 

Gor-Kill: revealed that Bloodstone may have been the monster hunter in that story :Tales of Suspense#12 

In addition, this special canonizes many monster stories that previously were not Earth-616 canonical: 

Bombu :Journey Into Mystery#60 
Gargantus :Strange Tales#80 and #85 
Emil Vogel 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/emilvogelcod.htm 
Krang 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/krangant.htm 
Shadow monsters 
http://monsterblog.oneroom.org/meet_the_monsters/the_living_shadows.html 
Manoo: Amazing Adventures#2 
Tales of Suspense I#7 
Journey Into Mystery I#11 
Kurt Hanson Yeti story see above 
Lost monks and Yeti curse? 
Monstrollo :Tales of Suspense#25 
Journey Into Mystery#64 
Kraa the Unhuman (they mention him as rumored as existing on Monster Isle) Tales of Suspense#18 
Bull Drago : Strange Tales#74 
http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/manoo.html 
Man-oo the Gorilla 

http://monsterblog.oneroom.org/meet_the_monsters/ 

Not all the Monster stories can be canon, since some of them took place in the future. Note the Tales of the Watcher in Star Wars Weekly that I mentioned some time ago.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 07:39 pm    
By Enda80

In chat I started an interesting related list.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 09:42 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Not all the Monster stories can be canon, since some of them took place in the future. 
<<<

Same rules as the Golden Age stuff -- we can probably assume they're canon unless they're implausible (end with the world exploding or, yes, occur in the future) or unless they're contradicted by a Silver/Modern Age story. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 03:00 pm    Post subject: SUB-M 15-FB
By Dhall

Dorma 
SUB-M 11 
SUB-M 13 
**SUB-M 15-FB 
SUB-M 15 
SUB-M 16 

Lord Vashti 
SUB-M 9 
**SUB-M 15-FB 
SUB-M 15 
SUB-M 16 
H2 118 
SUB-M 17 

NEWELL, DIANE ARLISS 
SUB-M 7 
SUB-M 8 
**SUB-M 15-FB 
SUB-M 15 
SUB-M 19

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 27 Nov 2005 11:42 am    Post subject: H2 115-FB
By Dhall

Leader 

TTA 75/2 
**H2 115-FB 
H2 115

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 27 Nov 2005 12:34 pm    Post subject: Sub-M 17,18
By Dhall

Triton 
SUB-M 3 
FF 82 
FF 83 
** SUB-M 18-FB 
SUB-M 18 
SUB-M 19 
SUB-M 20 

**Dynorr/The Stalker 
SUB-M 18-FB 
SUB-M 17 
SUB-M 18 

**Kormok 
SUB-M 17 
SUB-M 18

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 27 Nov 2005 09:58 pm    Post subject: H2 125-FB
By Dhall

Absorbing Man 
JIM 123 
T@ 2 
**H2 125-FB 
H2 125 

Edited, because @ is not the same as 2, even though they are on the same key.

Last edited by Dhall on 28 Nov 2005 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Nov 2005 10:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
**H@ 125-FB  
<<<

I assume that this should read "H2 125-FB." 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 12:45 pm    
By Dhall

Quite.

			*	*	*

Thread 53

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 06:34 pm    Post subject: NFAOS 13-FB
By Dhall

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
NFAOS 12 
**NFAOS 13-FB 
NFAOS 13 
NFAOS 14 
IM 16-FB 


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
NFAOS 12 
**NFAOS 13-FB 
NFAOS 13 
NFAOS 14 
NFAOS 15 

BROWN, LAURA 
NFAOS 9 
NFAOS 10 
NFAOS 11 
**NFAOS 13-FB 
NFAOS 13 
NFAOS 15

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 04:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Could you tell us what this flashback actually is and (though I suspect it may be self-evident) the rationale for placing it there?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 12:51 pm    
By Dhall

I would be happy to. I'm at work right now, so it will have to wait until later, but it is a self-evident flashback. I'm finding that there are a LOT of self-evident flashbacks missing in the MCP from late 1960's comics, that don't (to my knowledge) have an Official Marvel Index. This is especially evident in NFAOS and Sub-Mariner, and Hulk. 

These tend to fall into two main catagories, 1) Stuff that happens in between this book, and the previous issue and 2) Stuff that happens to a villain, between there last appaerance and the current issue. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 01:11 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I don't think it's related to whether there's an index for the title or not. When I first started these listings, I made the (regrettable) decision not to include flashbacks that occurred before the appearance in the main story, with no other appearances between them. Since then, we've been sloooowly going through the books and making those corrections. 

Audited in this regard are: 
FF 1-75 
ASM 1-50 
H 1-6 
TTA 27-101 
TOS 35-99 
T 84-150 
ST 101-160 
A 1-50 
DD 1-25 
UX 1-25 

It looks like you've been doing the same thing, covering a period just ahead of us. 


watching: live from

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 01:37 pm    
By Dhall

That explains it. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 06:30 pm    
By Dhall

NFAOS 13-FB 

Page 6 Panels 4-6 

Nick tells Dum Dum about killing Rickard, because Rickard was a traitor. Dum Dum points out that Nick has no evidence, and will have to arrest him, for killing a SHIELD agent. 

Page 7, Nick struggles, but is captured by SHIELD. 
Later, Nick is in a cell, but Laura Brown smuggles in a sonic disintigrator ring. Fury later uses this to escape from SHIELD captivity. 

The escape appears in the newspapers, and quite clearly occurs between the previous issue, and the start of this one. In fact it picks up right where issue #12 ended, and takes us through events occuring shortly prior to issue #13. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 54

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 12:07 am    Post subject: PPSM2 14
By Antonio Gavio

Here's a segment of Spider-Man's chronology that never made sense to me. 

ASM2 15-FB 
ASM2 13 
PPSM2 13 
PPSM2 14 
ASM2 14 
S-W3 9 
WTS 13 
PPSM2 14 
FF3 27 
A3 25 
PPSM2 14 
ASM2 15 
PPSM2 15 
ASM2 16 

Issue 14 of Peter Parker Spider-Man V2 has been divided in three segments, I'm guessing due to the Daily Bugle cover shown in it with the headline SUPER MODEL FEARED DEAD, most likely leading one to assume that's the cover from the day after Mary Jane's supposed death at the airplane explosion. There's another Bugle cover (in ASM2 14 and SM: RGG 1), which is the actual cover from that day. There's also an issue missing on that segment which contains a key reference to determine placement for all the issues involved: WTS 14. 
Spidey's chronology should look like this: 

ASM2 15-FB (5p2) Mary Jane tells Peter she got a modeling gig in Latveria 
ASM2 13 The Stalker kidnaps Mary Jane; her death is faked with the airplane explosion 
PPSM2 13 The same day as ASM2 13, Spider-Man captures Cletus Casady, Peter learns of MJ's supposed death 
ASM2 14 The morning after PPSM2 13, Spider-Man and Spider-Woman III fight Spider-Woman IV 
S-W3 9 The same day as ASM2 14 and early the next morning, the fight against Spider-Woman IV continues until she is finally beaten 
FF3 27 (4-22) Spider-man talks to the Human Torch about Sue's upcoming wedding to "Dr. Doom" (Reed inside Doom's armor), Spidey mentions that MJ is dead, gone forever 
WTS 13 Cletus Casady and Spider-Man are transported to Negative Zone; Peter still staying at the penthouse in this issue 
WTS 14 Spider-Man and Dusk defeat Blastaar and Carnage in the Negative Zone. At the end of this issue, Spidey realizes for the first time he doesn't believe MJ to be dead, after he seemed to be just accepting it earlier in the issue and in other stories (ASM2 14, S-W3 9, FF3 27), thus beginning his state of denial 
PPSM2 14 Spider-Man fights the Hulk, while friends and family mourn MJ's 'death'. The cover of the Daily Bugle edition shown throughout this issue reads: "SUPER-MODEL FEARED DEAD", and is not the same as the one in ASM2 14 and SM:RGG 1-FB (9p4-p5); it must be an edition from a few days later following the airplane explosion, after all the rescue efforts have been exhausted and MJ's body has not been found. An anonymous person tells Peter MJ is alive 
ASM2 15-FB (5p4) This is here just for completists, probably seconds after the end of PPSM2 14, Peter is told that MJ is in Latveria 
ASM2 15 The morning after PPSM2 14, Spider-Man goes to Latveria looking for Mary Jane 
PPSM2 15 Spider-Man defeats Doombot, realizes Mary Jane is not in Latveria 
ASM2 16 Just back from Latveria Spidey looses his penthouse apartment, beats the Ghost and is fired at Tricorp 
A3 25 Spider-Man helps the Avengers rescue Juggernaut from the Exemplars (Yup, this issue goes after Spideys return from Latveria too, and it can be proven but thats a topic for another thread. 

Other than J. J. Jameson, Marla Madison and May Parker's, this changes don't affect the chronologies from anybody appearing in FF3 27, WTS 13-14 or PPSM2 14. 

J. J. Jameson 
FF3 27 (2-3) 
PPSM2 13 
ASM2 14 
PPSM2 14 
ASM2 16 

Marla Madison 
PPSM2 13 
ASM2 14 
PPSM2 14 

May Parker 
ASM2 13 
PPSM2 13 
ASM2 14 
PPSM2 14 
ASM2 15 
ASM2 16

			*	*	*

Thread 55

Posted: 27 Nov 2005 09:47 pm    Post subject: H2 124-FB and AF Special
By Dhall

Rhino 
ASM 43 
H2 104-FB 
H2 104 
**H2 124-FB 
AF SPECIAL  Cant go here. 
H2 124 
H2 157 
H2 158 


Rhino should not appear in AF Special between H2 104 and H2 124, as he is in a coma during that period, as shown in H2 124-FB. 

It should go earlier in chronology, as many of the villains in AF Special, have their next appearance listed as Avengers Annual 1. The listing for A@ 1, has Enchantress and Executioner appearing next in H2 102. Logically therefore, AF Special has to occur before both A @ 1, and H2 102. 

Yes, I know this raises other issues, with Rhinos costume, but still the best place for AF Special is between ASM 43 and H2 104. 



Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 04:25 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Did you make sure to check THE OFFICIAL MARVEL INDEX TO THE RHINO before posting this? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 06:33 pm    
By Dhall

I checked my copy of the Offical Marvel Index to Silver Age Alpha Flight....

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 08:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Oh, didn't you hear? That's been retconned.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 56

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 12:34 am    Post subject: H2 127-FB
By Dhall

Mole Man 
X:HY 19 
X:HY 20 
X:HY 21 
X:HY 22 
*H2 127-FB 
H2 127 
CA 136 
FF 127 
FF 128 

In this FB, Mole Man captures Tyrannus' fountain, and then reviews his troops.

			*	*	*

Thread 57

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: IM 19
By Dhall

Captain America 
A 120 
IM 18 
A 69 
**IM 19 
**A 69 
A 70 
A 71 
IM 19  Incorrect. Should be deleted 
A 72 
CA 120 

Iron Man 
A 66 
A 67 
IM 15 
IM 16 
IM 17 
IM 18 
A 69 
IM 19 
A 70 
A 71 
IM 20 
IM 21 
CA 123 

There is a problem here, as IM 19 cant go both after and before A 70-71. 
As Iron Man appears in A 69, IM 19, then A 70, I am inclined to believe that his listing is correct. As Caps appearance in IM 19 is to announce Tonys recovery, which must occur before A 70, it is Caps listing that is incorrect. For Cap to appear in IM 19, Kang must have sent him back to the hospital to check on Tony. This can only occur in A 69, between the time Tony Stark is sent back to the hospital, and before the GrandMaster takes Cap off to play the game.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 01:02 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

When dealing with Kang, all things are possible. I haven't gone to the books to check, but I believe Iron Man is pulled out of a different place in the time stream to appear in Avengers, so comparing Iron Man's chronology to other characters in this story won't work. 


watching: tennessee v kentucky

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 02:07 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
I haven't gone to the books to check, but I believe Iron Man is pulled out of a different place in the time stream to appear in Avengers 
<<<


Not so, Iron Man is not pulled out of a different time. His appearances are quite straight forward in these. Even if it were so, Cap's appearnce is the one that's incorrect. 

If you check the books, you will see what I am talking about for yourself.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 04:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Gotta check the Index again, Dave.  

According to the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #2, Captain America appears in IM 18 before A 69 and in IM 19 after A 71. The Index states that Tony Stark appears in A 69 between IM 18 and 19. Iron Man then appears in A 70-71 and his next appearance after A 71 is in IM 20. 

Iron Man IS plucked out of the near future in A 70 because Tony Stark is still recuperating at the time of A 70 and Kang needed a healthy Stark as his champion. 

So IM 19 occurs after A 71, and between IM 19 and 20, Stark is plucked by Kang to appear back in A 70-71.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 08:49 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Gotta check the Index again, Dave 
<<<

I prefer to check the actual books. 

There's no in book evidence for this theory, especially as it's the Grand-master who picked Iron Man, not Kang. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 09:46 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The in-book evidence is found in the Official Index. The Index is right, unless it's wrong, and by that, we mean obviously wrong. It must be impossible for the Index to be right, before we can overrule it. 


watching: virginia tech v north carolina

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 09:54 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

To clarify, here's what the Avengers Index has to say: 

Quote: 
>>>
When Kang abducted the Avengers to participate in his game against the Grandmaster, Tony Stark was at death's door, but in this story, Iron Man appears to be in good health. So the Grandmaster must have sent the Avengers to battle the Squadron Sinister on Earth at a slightly different time from when they were abducted. This Index assumes that the battles between the Avengers and Squadron take place about ten days after the conclusion of issue #71, so Iron Man appears in issues #70 and 71 shortly after recovering from his operation, in between Iron Man #19 and 20. After issue #71, the Grandmaster returns Iron Man and the Black Knight to their proper time and Thor, Captain America, the Black Panther and the Avengers to theirs. Captain America is returned to the hospital where Tony Stark is being treated, and he appears in Iron Man #19 after a while to announce that Stark will survive his operation. The comments of the reporters in that issue make it seem as if Cap and the Avengers never left. 
<<<


watching: virginia tech v north carolina

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 04:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Because God forbid Olshevsky go with the simpler solution, that Iron Man was operating a little out of sync with Avengers at that point... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 05:37 pm    
By Dhall

Ok. I sometimes get a little ticked off when Index's are mentioned, because I see them as a secondary source, and the actual comic books are the primary source. 

I know that some tend to see Olshevsky's theories as Marvel endorsed since they are Marvel published indexes and that's fine. 

I do have to say that quite frequently, Olshevsky's theories are not supported by any evidence other than that Marvel published them in an index. To me that equals no evidence. That doesn't make them wrong, but it doesn't make them right either. 

I understand that MCP policy differs from mine, but I still find that using the indexes is like looking in an encyclopedia for your answers, and never looking at actual documents. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 05:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Not a fair comparison, since we look at both the "encyclopedia" and "the actual document." 

When the encyclopedia gives you answers that are demonstrably wrong, as proved by the actual document, you can reasonably discount the encyclopedia entry. But when an authoritative source states that a possible interpretation is the correct interpretation, we have no reason to overrule it. You or I may "like" a personal interpretation better than the "official" one, but we're doing a disservice if we ignore the official interpretation in favor of our fan wanks, without explaining how the official interpretation is clearly wrong. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 06:03 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quick question, Russ -- we say the Index's placements are "official" because they were published, and therefore endorsed, by Marvel. Therefore we should follow them unless they're undeniably wrong. 

But not all of Olshevsky's Indexes WERE published by Marvel. His earlier works were published through G&T Enterprises, and do not carry the word "Official" in the title. Wouldn't that mean that we don't necessarily have to follow the chronological placements of those particular Indexes? They'd be a guidebook, sure -- but would they be a rulebook? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 07:11 pm  
By ADMINISTRATOR

I think you state it well. In the unofficial indexes, he's a fan, no more or less than us. Now I do respect his chronological work, even in his pre-official days, but it's a lower burden of evidence to overturn findings from the original Index. Olshevsky knew what he was talking about, but so do many of our contributors here. 

And I think I know where you're headed with this. You're thinking about the Hulk Annual 1 question that David brought up last week, right? If anyone comes up with a placement that works better, without causing problems for anyone else's chronologies, there's nothing sacred about Olshevsky's work here. Olshevsky goes to the trouble of mentioning here that this is the only place it can go, and I've taken him at his word, but he could be mistaken. 


watching: paula zahn

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 05:33 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's also worth bearing in mind that most INDEXES carried a long list of writers and editors who Olshevsky had consulted with. These are definitely decisions reached in consultation with the relevant people at Marvel, and implicitly approved by the editor of the INDEX itself.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 08:53 am    
By jephyork
Director

Official Indexes, I assume you mean. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 58

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 02:19 pm    Post subject: Code of Honor#3 when editors drop the ball
By Enda80

http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=69359 

I noticed that many of the villains in this issue have yet to be chronologized. Aside from that, I should note that some of these appearances are impossible. The Ani-Men died before the Secret Wars, yet the writer has them appear here. Also, the Abomination was disintegrated at this time. 

Was the ice monster in this issue Ymir? 

Who was the guy with dreadloks?

			*	*	*

Thread 59

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 10:52 pm    Post subject: SUB-M 23-FB
By Dhall

FB: Dorcas and Krang team up, Dorcas turns Orka into a human killer whale. 

ORKA 
** SUB-M 23-FB 
SUB-M 23 
SUB-M 24 
SUB-M 66 
SUB-M 67 

DORCAS, LEMUEL DR. 
SUB-M 5 
SUB-M 6 
SUB-M 15 
** SUB-M 23-FB 
SUB-M 23 
SUB-M 24 
SUB-M 33 

KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
TTA 87 
TTA 91 
** SUB-M 23-FB 
SUB-M 23 
SUB-M 24 
SUB-M 33 
CA 180 

Vashti 
SUB-M 21 
**SUB-M 23 
SUB-M 24 
SUB-M 25 


As Vashti appearsa with Lady Dorma in Sub-M 24, he has to be one of the Atlanteans held prisoner along with Dorma in Sub-M 23. These Atlanteans are seen on panel in #23, but too small to identify (thus I did not usea BTS notation.) 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 60

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 12:18 am    Post subject: Issue publication?
By DeBeauX9

I was wondering when the actual issues were published in what order and month in the Ultimate series? Is there a comprehensive list someone can show me of when what issue to the Ultimate series came out?

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 12:28 am    
By JD

Well, there's the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators which can be of some help (even though they list cover dates, not actual publishing dates - there's usually a two-month difference).

			*	*	*

Thread 61

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 03:09 am    Post subject: M/CP 137/3: Ant-Man
By Col_Fury

M/CP 137/3: Ant-Man 
Giant Trouble 
W: Barry Dutter 
D: Patrick Archibald 
Published: September 1993 

Appearances: 
Ant-Man(Scott Lang), Cassie Lang, Goliath(Erik Josten), Mrs. Berstein. 

Synopsis: 
Cassie is going to her play, but Scott has some business as Ant-Man! 
Ant-Man fights Goliath, remembers helping Cassie with her lines for the play. 
Ant-Man beats Goliath by shrinking him. 
Scott misses Cassies play, shes upset, Mrs. Berstein suggests that she drive her home. 

References: 
Happens in one day. 

The FlashBack is on pg5pn4. 

Some suggested chronology placements: 

Ant-Man II/Scott Harris Lang 
 
M/CP 81/3 
M/CP 131/3 
*M/CP 137/3 
FFU 5 
 

Lang, Cassandra Cassie 
 
M/CP 81/3 
*M/CP 137/3-FB 
*M/CP 137/3 
FF 393-BTS 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 62

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 03:11 am    Post subject: M/CP 138/4: Spider-Man
By Col_Fury

M/CP 138/4: Spider-Man 
Deathurge 
W: Matt Idleson 
D: Malcom Jones 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Deathurge, Ben Urich-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Spider-Man is in a cancer ward on a tip from Ben Urich. Deathurge arrives to end the patients suffering. Naturally, a fight ensues. Spider-Man drives him off, then contemplates the pros & cons of euthanasia. 

References: 
Its a Saturday! 

Some suggested chronology placements: 

Spider-Man/Peter Benjamin Parker 
 
ASM 382 
*M/CP 138/4 
S-M 38 
 

Urich, Ben 
 
DD 325 
*M/CP 138/4-BTS 
DD@ 10/2 
 

Deathurge 
 
Q 39 
*M/CP 138/4 
H: PL 12 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 63

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 03:13 am    Post subject: M/CP 139/4: Batroc
By Col_Fury

M/CP 139/4: Batroc 
Feat First 
W: Mike Lackey 
D: Pedi 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Batroc, Adahm & the Goon-Squad. 

Synopsis: 
Batroc foils some bank robbers in Montreal. 

References: 
All in one morning. 

A chronology placement suggestion: 

Batroc/Georges Batroc 
 
CA 414 
*M/CP 139/4 
CA 433 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 64

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 03:14 am    Post subject: M/CP 142/4: Foreigner
By Col_Fury

M/CP 142/4: Foreigner 
Foreign Soil 
W: Simon Furman 
D: Derek Yaniger 
Published: November 1993 

Appearances: 
Foreigner, Alex Grimond, Errol Duke. 

Synopsis: 
Alex Grimond attempts to kill the Foreigner to take his place, breaks into the Foreigners house & kills him! But 
It was actually Errol Duke! Errol had tried the same thing Alex is, but the next stage was to impersonate the Foreigner & kill anyone attempting to replace him. Now its Alexs turn 

References: 
One night, full moon. 

A suggested chronology placement: 

Foreigner/Rafael Basil Sabitini/Chris(or Kris) Keating 
 
SSWP 18 
*M/CP 142/4 
SSWP 24 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 65

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 03:17 am    Post subject: M/CP 138/3-142/3: Spellbound
By Col_Fury

M/CP 138/3: Spellbound 
Zxaxzs Escape pt 1 
W: Bobbie Chase 
D: Terry Shoemaker 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Spellbinder(Erica Fortune), Zxaxz, Roy Fortune, Jen, I.Q., Snaarl. 

Synopsis: 
In another dimension, Erica has been driven insane by the powers she controls. Zxaxz arrives, recaps the 88 mini for us, traps Erica in a crystal & deposits her on Earth. 
In Greenwich Village, her brother Roy can tell something is wrong 

M/CP 139/3: Spellbound 
Earthbound pt 2 
W: Bobbie Chase 
D: Terry Shoemaker 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Spellbinder(Erica Fortune), Zxaxz, Roy Fortune, Jen, Snugg, Snaarl, Sally Fortune, Andrew King. 

Synopsis: 
Zxaxz appears & captures everyone, then he takes them back to his dimension. 

M/CP 140/3: Spellbound 
Traitor pt 3 
W: Bobbie Chase 
D: Sergio Cariello 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Spellbinder(Erica Fortune), Zxaxz, Roy Fortune, Snugg, Snaarl, Sally Fortune, Andrew King. 

Synopsis: 
Roy fights Zxaxz, then the gang returns to Earth. But the crystal Erica is trapped in is glowing 

M/CP 141/3: Spellbound 
Ericas Return pt 4 
W: Bobbie Chase 
D: Sergio Cariello 
Published: November 1993 

Appearances: 
Spellbinder(Erica Fortune), Roy Fortune, Snugg, Snaarl, Sally Fortune, Andrew King. 

Synopsis: 
Erica escapes, everyone fights. Erica leaves after she kills Andrew. 

M/CP 142/3: Spellbound 
Conclusion pt 5 
W: Bobbie Chase 
D: Sergio Cariello 
Published: November 1993 

Appearances: 
Spellbinder(Erica Fortune), Roy Fortune, Snugg, Snaarl, Sally Fortune, Jen. 

Synopsis: 
Sally has a bad dream. 
The next night, Roy & his band are rehearsing for a big show. Erica attacks during the concert, she & Roy fight. Roy traps Erica then destroys his magical stuff. 

The End. 

References: 
138-142pg2 are all in one day. 142pg3-pg8 are the next day. Two days in total. No moons are seen. 

Some suggested chronology placements: 

Spellbinder/Erica Fortune 
 
SPELL 6 
*M/CP 138/3 
*M/CP 139/3 
*M/CP 140/3 
*M/CP 141/3 
*M/CP 142/3 

Zxaxz 
M/CP 138/3 
M/CP 139/3 
M/CP 140/3 

Snugg 
M/CP 139/3 
M/CP 140/3 
M/CP 141/3 
M/CP 142/3 

Snaarl 
M/CP 138/3 
M/CP 139/3 
M/CP 140/3 
M/CP 141/3 
M/CP 142/3 

Fortune, Roy 
M/CP 138/3 
M/CP 139/3 
M/CP 140/3 
M/CP 141/3 
M/CP 142/3 

Fortune, Sally 
M/CP 139/3 
M/CP 140/3 
M/CP 141/3 
M/CP 142/3 

King, Andrew 
M/CP 139/3 
M/CP 140/3 
M/CP 141/3 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 66

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 03:22 am    Post subject: M/CP 137/2-142/2: Ghost Rider
By Col_Fury

M/CP 137/2: Ghost Rider 
Fellow Travelers pt 1 
Rage of Honor 
W: Len Kaminski 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: September 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Izanuma(Lightning), Kaze(Wind), Kaminari(Thunder). 

Synopsis: 
Ghost Rider is attacked by ninjas! Then, the Masters of Silence arrive! 

References: 
Dan has experienced disquiet for a few days before this, so nothing important has happened to him over the last few days. 

M/CP 138/2: Ghost Rider 
Fellow Travelers pt 2 
Lightning Swords of Death 
W: Len Kaminski 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Tsin Hark, Izanuma(Lightning), Kaze(Wind), Kaminari(Thunder). 

Synopsis: 
Ghost Rider fights the Masters of Silence, then they all decide to team up. They discover barrels filled with blood, then evil person Tsin Hark arrives. 

M/CP 139/2: Ghost Rider 
Fellow Travelers pt 3 
Fangs of Fury 
W: Len Kaminski 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Tsin Hark, Izanuma(Lightning), Kaze(Wind), Kaminari(Thunder). 

Synopsis: 
After a quick chat with Tsin Hark, our heroes are attacked by zombies! 

M/CP 140/2: Ghost Rider 
Fellow Travelers pt 4 
Throne of Blood 
W: Len Kaminski 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Tsin Hark, Izanuma(Lightning), Kaze(Wind), Kaminari(Thunder). 

Synopsis: 
While Tsin Hark calls his Army of Darkness, our heroes defeat the zombies. 

M/CP 141/2: Ghost Rider 
Fellow Travelers pt 5 
Army of Darkness 
W: Len Kaminski 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: November 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Tsin Hark, Izanuma(Lightning), Kaze(Wind), Kaminari(Thunder). 

Synopsis: 
Our heroes fight the Army of Darkness while Tsin Hark changes 

M/CP 142/2: Ghost Rider 
Fellow Travelers pt 6 
Red Dawn 
W: Len Kaminski 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: November 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Tsin Hark, Izanuma(Lightning), Kaze(Wind), Kaminari(Thunder). 

Synopsis: 
Ghost Rider defeats Tsin Hark while the Masters of Silence watch. 

References: 
The whole thing happens in one night. 

Herere some chronology placement suggestions: 

Tsin Hark 
M/CP 138/2 
M/CP 139/2 
M/CP 140/2 
M/CP 141/2 
M/CP 142/2 

Izanuma(Lightning) 
... 
IM@ 14 
*M/CP 137/2 
*M/CP 138/2 
*M/CP 139/2 
*M/CP 140/2 
*M/CP 141/2 
*M/CP 142/2 

Kaze(Wind) 
... 
IM@ 14 
*M/CP 137/2 
*M/CP 138/2 
*M/CP 139/2 
*M/CP 140/2 
*M/CP 141/2 
*M/CP 142/2 

Kaminari(Thunder) 
... 
IM@ 14 
*M/CP 137/2 
*M/CP 138/2 
*M/CP 139/2 
*M/CP 140/2 
*M/CP 141/2 
*M/CP 142/2 

Ghost Rider III/Dan Ketch 
 
GR@ 1/3 
*M/CP 137/2 
*M/CP 138/2 
*M/CP 139/2 
*M/CP 140/2 
*M/CP 141/2 
*M/CP 142/2 
GR3 41 
 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 67

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 03:34 am    Post subject: M/CP 137/4, 140/4, 141/4: Iron Fist
By Col_Fury

These are not continued stories, they just happened to be published very close together. It seemed silly to give each one a seperate post... 

M/CP 137/4: Iron Fist 
"the Highwayman Comes Riding" 
W: Joey Cavalieri 
D: James Blackburn 
Published: September 1993 

Appearances: 
Iron Fist(Daniel Rand), Highwayman. 

Synopsis: 
The Highwayman is trying to steal stuff from Oracle, he & Iron Fist fight. Guess who wins? 

References: 
All in one night. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Iron Fist/Daniel Rand 
... 
S-M 43 
*M/CP 137/4 
DD 329 
... 

Highwayman 
... 
SSM&CB 232/2 
*M/CP 137/4 

M/CP 140/4: Iron Fist 
"End Run" 
W: John Figaroa 
D: Ron Wilson 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Iron Fist(Daniel Rand), Agent Dale Peck. 

Synopsis: 
Iron Fist is tagging along with some FBI guys transporting an informant when they're attacked. Iron Fist stops them fromtaking the informant after Peck is injured. 

References: 
They're somewhere in the Pacific Northwest... 

Peck was previously seen in M/CP 130/3 in an American Eagle story. We have a recurring character! 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Iron Fist/Daniel Rand 
... 
S-M 43 
M/CP 137/4 
*M/CP 140/4 
DD 329 
... 

Peck, Dale 
*M/CP 130/3 
*M/CP 140/4 

M/CP 141/4: Iron Fist 
"House of Rave" 
W: John Figaroa 
D: Robert Davis 
Published: November 1993 

Appearances: 
Iron Fist(Daniel Rand), Detective Nick, Rave. 

Synopsis: 
Detective Nick asks Iron Fist to look into a new drug called Maze, & the guy who makes it, Rave. So Iron Fist goes to Rave's club & beats him up. 

References: 
Nick says he goes 'way back' with Iron Fist & Power Man. 

All in one night, a full moon is seen. 

Some suggested chronology placements: 

Iron Fist/Daniel Rand 
... 
S-M 43 
M/CP 137/4 
M/CP 140/4 
*M/CP 141/4 
DD 329 
... 

As always, if I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 68

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 03:19 am    Post subject: M/CP 137-142: Wolverine
By Col_Fury

M/CP 137: Wolverine 
Rumble in the Jungle pt 1 
W: Erik Larson 
D: Chris Marrinan 
Published: September 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Doc Samson. 

Synopsis: 
In a jungle, Wolverine comes across some native treating a young woman badly, so he starts a fight. He clobbered from behind after the fight. 

References: 
Wolverine mentions to himself: Another vacation gone sour. So this happens after the previous M/CP story, where he was on vacation. 

Wolverine still has adamantium bones & claws in this story, so this is before W2 75, X 25, etc. 

M/CP 138: Wolverine 
Rumble in the Jungle pt 2 
Arena 
W: Erik Larson 
D: Chris Marrinan 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Doc Samson. 

Synopsis: 
Wolverine wakes up in an arena, fights a big blue gorilla wearing clothes. 
When Wolverine is about to kill him, its revealed that the guy who clobbered him last issue is actually Doc Samson in disguise! 

References: 
Doc was in disguise last issue, so he gets a BTS for 137. 

M/CP 139: Wolverine 
Rumble in the Jungle pt 3 
Masque 
W: Erik Larson 
D: Chris Marrinan 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Doc Samson. 

Synopsis: 
Possessed by aliens, Doc Samson fights Wolverine. 
Wolverine escapes back into the jungle, but is captured again. 

M/CP 140: Wolverine 
Rumble in the Jungle pt 4 
Bedlam 
W: Erik Larson 
D: Chris Marrinan 
Published: October 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Doc Samson. 

Synopsis: 
Wolverine is being tortured until Doc Samson regains his senses. A fight ensues! Then, Wolverine jumps through a teleporter 

M/CP 141: Wolverine 
Rumble in the Jungle pt 5 
Battleground 
W: Erik Larson 
D: Chris Marrinan 
Published: November 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Doc Samson. 

Synopsis: 
Wolverine pops out the other end of the teleporter, landing in an insect world! After a fight, Wolverine comes back to Earth, discovering Doc Samson had a fight of his own. 
The Gorilla wakes up 

M/CP 142: Wolverine 
Rumble in the Jungle pt 6 
Afterburn 
W: Chris Marrinan 
D: Chris Marrinan 
Published: November 1993 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Doc Samson. 

Synopsis: 
The gorilla attacks, this time with guns! Guess who wins? 

References: 
The whole story takes place over one day. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
 
X 24 
W/NF: SR 
*M/CP 137 
*M/CP 138 
*M/CP 139 
*M/CP 140 
*M/CP 141 
*M/CP 142 
SABRE 2 
 

Doc Samson/Dr. Leonard Samson 
 
ASM 382 
*M/CP 137 
*M/CP 138 
*M/CP 139 
*M/CP 140 
*M/CP 141 
*M/CP 142 
H2 412 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 02 Nov 2005 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 09:15 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Is Doc Samson actually visible in disguise in M/CP 137, or is he off-panel? If he's disguised but seen on panel, that would still be an actual appearance. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 11:39 pm    
By Col_Fury

Yeah, you can see him. I've updated the suggestion above, thanks for the clarification!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 69

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:32 am    Post subject: M/CP 143/4: Devil-Slayer
By Col_Fury

M/CP 143/4: Devil-Slayer 
"Out of Time, in the Time-Out Hotel" 
W: Jon Babcock 
D: Darren Auck 
Published: December 1993 

Appearances: 
Devil-Slayer(Eric Simon Payne). 

Synopsis: 
Eric drinks himslef stupid in his hotel room, then fights some demons that jump out of the fridge. Afterwards, the hotel manager complains about the noise. 

A suggestion for chronology placement: 

Devil-Slayer/Eric Simon Payne 
... 
M/CP 49/2 
*M/CP 143/4 
OE 2 
... 

If I missed something, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 70

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:34 am    Post subject: M/CP 143/2-144/4: Scarlet Witch
By Col_Fury

M/CP 143/2: Scarlet Witch 
Digital Terror! pt 1 
W: Cefn Ridout 
D: Charles Adlard 
Published: December 1993 

Appearances: 
Scarlet Witch(Wanda Maximoff), Wasp(Janet Van Dyne), Pixil, Lilith-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Wanda is showing Janet her new Strange Attractor machine. It starts acting funny & Wanda is pulled into cyberspace by Pixil. 
Pg4pn2-pg4pn4-FB Pixil tells Wanda his origin, involving his mother Lilith. 
Wanda & Pixil fight. 

References: 
Wanda & Janet are in the West Coast Avengers HQ, so this is before that branch is disbanded & rename themselves Force Works. 

M/CP 144/4: Scarlet Witch 
Techno Phobia! pt 2 
Algorithm of Life 
W: Cefn Ridout 
D: Charles Adlard 
Published: December 1993 

Appearances: 
Scarlet Witch(Wanda Maximoff), Pixil, Ars Magna. 

Synopsis: 
Wandas hex powers have created a digital devil! Well, not actually. She summoned a being banished here, as Ars Magna tells us in his origin from pg4 to pg5pn2. Then Wanda hops on a hackers signal & ends up in Milwaukee. 

References: 
How could Ars Magna be banished into cyberspace in the 13th Century? That doesnt my brain hurts. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff 
 
A 369 
*M/CP 143/2 
*M/CP 144/4 
WITCH 1 
 

Wasp/Janet Van Dyne Pym 
 
DHOLD 4 
*M/CP 143/2 
A 379/2-FB 
 

Lilith II 
 
GR3 31 
*M/CP 143/2-FB 
GR3 41 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 71

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:37 am    Post subject: M/CP 143/3-144/2: Werewolf
By Col_Fury

M/CP 143/3: Werewolf 
Goblin Night pt 1 
Little Monsters 
W: Len Kaminski 
D: James Fry 
Published: December 1993 

Appearances: 
Werewolf(Jack Russell). 

Synopsis: 
Jack Russell scares some trick-or-treaters. 
Some other kids are possessed by Lilin, then kill an old lady. They run across Jack, who turns into Werewolf. 

References: 
Its Halloween! 

M/CP 144/2: Werewolf 
Goblin Night pt 2 
Stage Fright 
W: Len Kaminski 
D: James Fry 
Published: December 1993 

Appearances: 
Werewolf(Jack Russell). 

Synopsis: 
Werewolf is fighting the Lilin, but is stopped by some cops. The Lilin go to a nearby school play, possess more kids, & start killing the audience. Werewolf shows up & tears the Lilin into pieces. Some cops show up so he leaves. 

A suggested chronology placement: 

Werewolf/Jack Russell 
 
MORBIUS 15 
*M/CP 143/3 
*M/CP 144/2 
MSU 5 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 72

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 09:59 am    Post subject: M/CP 143-146: Siege of Darkness
By Col_Fury

Siege of Darkness what a crossover. An event, even! These M/CP chapters all tie into SoD, so Ive lumped them all together in one post. Here we go 

M/CP 143: Ghost Rider 
Siege of Darkness pt 3 
Treachery 
W: Chris Cooper 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: December 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Dr. Strange, Vengeance, Girth, Skitter, Pilgrim, Zarathos, Lilith, Caretaker, Morbius, Seer. 

Synopsis: 
Teleporting away from GR3 44, the group gets split up. Ghost Rider, Johnny Blaze, & Vengeance have a fight with Girth & Skitter, then Pilgrim, Zarathos, & Lilith arrive just as they leave. They meet back up with Dr. Strange, Caretaker, Morbius, & Seer to tell them theres a traitor in the group. 

References: 
All kinds of editors notes tell us that this takes place between GR3 44 & DHOLD 15. 

M/CP 144/3: Ghost Rider 
Siege of Darkness pt 6 
Treachery Redeemed 
W: Chris Cooper 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: December 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Morbius, Blade, Zarathos, Jinx, Modred, Lilith, Pilgrim, Martine, Frank Drake. 

Synopsis: 
Morbius, no longer evil, tries to convince Blade & Ghost Rider of this, but they fight instead. 
Meanwhile, Zarathos escapes & teleports away with Lilith & Pilgrim. Modred & Jinx try to stop them, but fail. 
Martine attacks Ghost Rider, but Morbius stops her & they vanish into mist. Ghost Rider has second thoughts about Morbius. 

References: 
All kinds of editors notes tell us that this takes place between MORBIUS 16 & DRSTR3 60. 

M/CP 145: Ghost Rider 
Siege of Darkness pt 11 
Speakeasy 
W: Chris Cooper 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: January 1994 

Appearances: 
Zarathos, Caretaker, Patriarch, Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Stacy Dolan, Speakeasy, Rubach, Atrocity, Metarchus. 

Synopsis: 
Caretaker is being tortured by Patriarch, while Zarathos, Embyrre, Rubach, Atrocity, & Metarchus watch. 
Stacy & Ghost Rider talk when Speakeasy arrives with a message. 
Caretaker wakes up, then Zarathos, Patriarch, & the rest decide to leave. 

References: 
To be continued in Darkhold 16! 

M/CP 146: Ghost Rider 
Siege of Darkness pt 14 
Mask 
W: Chris Cooper 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: January 1994 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Seer, Metarchus, Embyrre, James Raydar, Stacy Dolan, Vengeance, Johnny Blaze, Blade, Morbius, Frank Drake. 

Synopsis: 
Ghost Rider & Seer find Metarchus posing as Caretaker in Cypress Hills Cemetery. They teleport back to the nightclub, where Metarchus reveals himself & attacks. After a fight, Vengeance, Johnny Blaze, Blade, & Frank Drake arrive & Metarchus leaves. 

References: 
To be continued in Dr. Strange 61! 

M/CP 146/2: Dr. Strange 
Siege of Darkness pt 14 
Salomes Dream 
W: David Quinn 
D: Geoff Isherwood 
Published: January 1994 

Appearances: 
Dr. Strange, Nightmare, Salome, Victoria Montesi. 

Synopsis: 
Dr. Strange enters the nightclub & finds Nightmare. Salome attacks, Caretaker intervenes, & Salome leaves. Victoria Montesi arrives, she & Strange go to the ruins of his mansion. 

References: 
To be continued in Dr. Strange 61! 

M/CP 144: Morbius 
Siege of Darkness pt 6 
Like Family, Like Enemy pt 1 
W: Greg Wright 
D: M.C. Wyman 
Published: December 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Blade, Morbius, Meatmarket, Martine, Blackout. 

Synopsis: 
Blade fights Morbius, whos a traitor! Martine attacks Blade, then Johnny Blaze attacks Martine, then Morbius. Martine & Morbius escape. Morbius comes across some Lilin attacking a kid, Morbius comes back to his senses. Hes no longer evil! Martine is upset by this, so he & she fight. Morbius goes back to look for Blade & he finds him in M/CP 144/3. 

References: 
Continued from Morbius 16! 

M/CP 145/2: Morbius 
Siege of Darkness pt 11 
Casualties of War pt 2 
W: Greg Wright 
D: M.C. Wyman 
Published: January 1994 

Appearances: 
Morbius, Hannibal King. 

Synopsis: 
Morbius is in the nightclub on a mission to find James Raydar. He goes through a portal & finds a Lilin child. Hannibal appears & tells him to kill it. As they discuss moral issues, it dies on its own. They talk more about moral and such, then go off to look for Raydar together. 

References: 
Continued from Ghost Rider 45! 

M/Cp 145/3: Nightstalkers 
Siege of Darkness pt 11 
Dust pt 1 
W: Steven Grant 
D: Lawrence Brown 
Published: January 1994 

Appearances: 
Frank Drake, Blade. 

Synopsis: 
Under Cypress Hills Cemetery, Frank Drake wanders around & runs into the People of the Dust. Frank is almost killed by them until Blade arrives. 

References: 
Continued from Nightstalkers 15! 

M/CP 146/4: Nightstalkers 
Siege of Darkness pt 14 
Ashes pt 2 
W: Steven Grant 
D: Lawrence Brown 
Published: January 1994 

Appearances: 
Frank Drake, Blade, Hannibal King. 

Synopsis: 
Blade & Drake fight the People of the Dust. They escape & meet up with Hannibal King. 

References: 
Continued from last issue! 

M/CP 145/4: Darkhold 
Siege of Darkness pt 11 
White Letter 
W: Chris Cooper 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: January 1994 

Appearances: 
Victoria Montesi, Sam Buchanan, NGarai, Dr. Strange. 

Synopsis: 
Victoria has found & read a disturbing letter, so shes decided to kill herself. Sam stops her, she tells him that shes pregnant with a Chthon demon inside her. Shes going to give birth to Chthon, which would be a horrible thing for the world, so she asks Sam to kill her since she cant kill herself. NGarai attacks, which interrupts Sam from making a decision. They run away & Dr. Strange arrives. 

References: 
To be continued in Dr. Strange 61! 

M/CP 146/3: Devil-Slayer 
Siege of Darkness pt 14 
Temptation 
W: John Babcock 
D: Darren Auck 
Published: January 1994 

Appearances: 
Devil-Slayer(Eric Payne), Pilgrim, Meatmarket. 

Synopsis: 
Devil-Slayer is at Dr. Strange destroyed mansion, & hes very confused. He goes to look for Dr. Strange, & his cloak brings him to the Silver Cloud Lounge where some Lilin want to use his cloak. After a fight, Devil-Slayer leaves. 

If you want to see what all of the crossover book are, you can see the list here: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1083 

After a whole bunch of cross referencing, flipping through books, & re-reading, I discovered a lot of missing entries in DRSTR3 60 & 61. Since those books are already in the MCP, Ive included the missing entries for those books here. Are you ready for some chronology placement suggestions? I know I am. In no particular order: 

Drake, Franklin 
 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144/3 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
*M/CP 145/3 
*M/CP 146/4 
*M/CP 146 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 
 

Lilith II 
 
GR3 44 
*M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144/3 
*DRSTR3 60 
MSU 4 
 

Blade 
 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144 
*M/CP 144/3 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
*M/CP 145/3 
*M/CP 146/4 
*M/CP 146 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 
 

Dolan, Stacy 
 
GR3 45 
*M/CP 145 
*M/CP 146 
MSU 4 
 

Caretaker 
 
GR3 44 
*M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
*M/CP 145 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 
 

Zarathos 
 
GR3 44 
*M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144/3 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
*M/CP 145 
*DHOLD 16 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 

Doctor Strange II/Dr. Steven Strange 
 
T 471 
**DRSTR3 60  move from here 
GR3 44 
*M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
**DRSTR3 60  move to here 
NS 15 
*M/CP 145/4 
*M/CP 146/2 
DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 
 

Vengeance/Michael Badilino 
 
GR3 44 
*M/CP 143 
MORBIUS 16 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
*M/CP 146 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 
 

Ghost Rider II/Johnny Blaze 
 
GR3 44 
*M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
*M/CP 146 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 
 

Ghost Rider III/Dan Ketch 
 
NS 14 
GR3 44 
*M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144 
*M/CP 144/3 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
*M/CP 145 
*M/CP 146 
*DRSTR3 61 
*MSU 4 
GR3 46 
 

Morbius/Dr. Michael Morbius 
... 
NS 14 
*M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144 
*M/CP 144/3 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
*M/CP 145/2 
MORBIUS 17 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 
 

Atrocity 
MSU 4-FB 
*{M/CP 145} 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 

Rubach 
*NS 15 
*M/CP 145 
*MORBIUS 17 

Raydar, James 
MORBIUS 17 
*M/CP 146 
MSU 4 

Embyrre 
*M/CP 145 
MORBIUS 17 
*M/CP 146 
MSU 4 

Salome 
*M/CP 146/2 
DRSTR3 61 
 

Nightmare/Edvard Haberdash 
 
DRSTR3 53 
*M/CP 146/2 
NMARE 1 
 

King, Hannibal/Henry Kagle 
 
NS 15 
*M/CP 146/4 
GR3 45 
*M/CP 145/2 
MORBIUS 17 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 
 

Buchanan, Samson 
 
MORBIUS 16 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
*M/CP 145/3 
DHOLD 16 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 
 

Speakeasy 
DHOLD 5 
DHOLD 15 
*M/CP 145 

Metarchus 
MSU 4-FB 
*{M/CP 145} 
DHOLD 16 
*M/CP 146 
*DRSTR3 61 
MSU 4 

Seer/ 
 
GR3 43 
*M/CP 143 
GR3 45 
*M/CP 146 

Pilgrim 
 
GR3 44 
*M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144/3 
NS 15 
*M/CP 146/3 

Montesi, Victoria 
... 
MORBIUS 16 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
DHOLD 16 
*M/CP 145/4 
*M/CP 146/2 
*DRSTR3 61 
DRSTR3 72 
 

Modred the Mystic 
 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144/3 
DHOLD 16 
 

Hastings, William Jinx 
 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144/3 
DHOLD 16 

Bancroft, Martine 
 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144 
*M/CP 144/3 
MORBIUS 17 
 

Meatmarket 
 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144 
*M/CP 146/3 

Blackout II 
 
MORBIUS 16 
*M/CP 144 
*DRSTR3 60 
NS 15 
 

Sister Nil 
*DRSTR3 60 
DRSTR@ 4 
 

Wang 
 
DRSTR3 59 
*DRSTR3 60 
DRSTR3 65 
 

Chang, Imei 
 
DRSTR3 56 
*DRSTR3 60 
DRSTR3 76 
 

Scarecrow/Ebenezer Laughton 
 
GR3 38 
*DRSTR3 61 
GR@ 2 
 

Man-Thing/Theodore Ted Sallis 
 
Q 50 
*DRSTR3 61 
NOM2 21 
 

Spider-Man/Peter Benjamin Parker 
 
ASMU 4/3 
*DRSTR3 61 
SLEEP 32 
 

That ties up everything except for those issues of Spirits of Vengeance. 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 01:10 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

What's your reasoning for moving DRSTR3 60 in Doctor Strange's listing? 


watching: live from

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 03:44 pm    
By Col_Fury

There were three main reasons: 

1. He appeared alongside Ghost Rider & a lot of other characters in GR3 44, M/CP 143, DHOLD 15 & MORBIUS 16, all of which occurred before his mansion was destroyed. The mansion was destroyed in DRSTR3 60. 

2. DRSTR3 60 is part 7 of the crossover, & currently it's listed as happening before part 2 in his chronology. 

3. An editor's note tells us this takes place after MORBIUS 16, and that it's continued in part 8 of the crossover, which is Spirits of Vengeance 17. 

Sorry about that, I should have included this in the above post, instead of just linking to a subject that listed the chapters. An oversight on my part, won't happen again! 

Thanks for the feedback!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 73

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 01:46 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] HOUSE OF M #1-8
By JD

Okay, I'm fairly new to this, so don't hesitate to tell me if there are any problems/errors. 
My knowledge of the Marvel Universe is patchy in non-X-Men-related areas, so there are a few characters in the Human Resistance I can't identify. Coipel's artwork doesn't help, as it makes very difficult for me to find the identity of most people depicted. If I've missed or misinterpreted anyone, please tell me. 

I'm not suggesting character chronologies yet, since most of them can only be assembled from the study of all stories. 

HOUSE OF M #1-7 
Writer : Brian M. Bendis 
Penciller : Olivier Coipel 
Published from June to October 2005 


HOUSE OF M #1, pp1-6 
Genosha, dawn or sunset. (I'd say dawn, so that Xavier has enough time to prepare the meeting...) 
Appearances : Scarlet Witch, Magneto, Xavier. 
Dopplegangers : Wanda's kids, Vision, Wonder Man, QuickSilver, Doctor Strange (?), Elektra (?) 
Wanda does yet another small reality wrap, re-enacting her kids' birth. Xavier makes her stop and discusses the matter with Magneto. 

HOUSE OF M #1, pp7-10 
New York City, bright day. 
Appearances : Wonder Man, Ms Marvel, Falcon, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Beast, Shadowcat, Wolverine, Colossus, Jarvis, Yellowjacket, Captain America, Wasp, Xavier, Doctor Strange, Iron Man, Spider-Man, She-Hulk, Cage, Quicksilver-BTS (mentionned in the next segment). 
Xavier summons the New Avengers, some of the old Avengers, and the X-Men to discuss the fate of Wanda. 

HOUSE OF M #1 pp11-13 
Genosha, night. 
Appearances : Quicksilver, Magneto, Scarlet Witch. 
Happens simultaneously with the segments surrounding it. Quicksilver comes from the meeting to warn Magneto. They argue about what to do while Wanda sleeps. 

HOUSE OF M #1 pp14-17 
New York City, bright day. 
Appearances : Wonder Man, Ms Marvel, Falcon, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Beast, Shadowcat, Wolverine, Colossus, Yellowjacket, Captain America, Wasp, Xavier, Doctor Strange, Iron Man, Spider-Man, She-Hulk, Cage. 
The Avengers and the X-Men argue and decide to go and see Wanda before deciding what to do with her. 

HOUSE OF M #1 pp18-23 
Genosha, dawn. 
Appearances : Wonder Man, Ms Marvel, Falcon, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Beast, Shadowcat, Wolverine, Colossus, Yellowjacket, Captain America, Wasp, Xavier, Doctor Strange, Iron Man, Spider-Man, She-Hulk, Cage 
Behind the scenes : Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Xavier, Magneto (as we learn in HOM 7) 
The Avengers and the X-Men arrive in Genosha but can't find anybody. Professor X disappears, then everybody seem to see something odd in a church. Cue in reality warp #1. 

HOUSE OF M #1 p24 
New York City, dawn 
Appearances : Spider-Man, Gwen Stacy, somebody off-panel talking to SM 
Spider-Man wakes up. 
Does anyone have any idea who's that talking to him ? 

HOUSE OF M #2 pp1-2 
New York City, the Bronx, morning 
Appearance : "old" Captain America 
Steve checks his mailbox and goes out for a stroll. 

HOUSE OF M #2 p3 
Hartford, Connecticut, morning 
Appearances : Emma Frost, Cyclops 
Emma and Scott have breakfast. 

HOUSE OF M #2 p4 
Los Angeles, morning 
Appearances : Dazzler, Wonder Man 
Alison interviews Simon on her show. 

HOUSE OF M #2 pp5-7 
New York City, presumably simultaneously to the previous bit (voiceover dialogue) 
Appearances : Ms Marvel (as Captain Marvel), Gambit, Bishop 
Carol helps arresting Gambit. 

HOUSE OF M #2 p8 
Cincinnati, Ohio, presumably still the same morning 
Appearances : Shadowcat, a bunch of mutant children I've never seen before 
Kitty teaches history. 

HOUSE OF M #2 pp9-11 
Hell's Kitchen, New York, presumably still the same morning 
Appearances : Cage, Falcon, Iron Fist, Black Cat, Misty Knight (?), a guy with shades I can't recognize 
Sam goes to the bar where Luke and his gang hang out to get some info on the attack against the Kingpin. 

HOUSE OF M #2 pp12-13 
New York City, presumably still the same morning 
Appearances : Dr Strange, Sentry 
Stephen analyses Robert. 
There's also a flashback to a Void appearance, but I think it can be safely put as occuring the day before, and thus ignored. 

HOUSE OF M #2 p14 
Russia, sunset 
Appearance : Colossus 
Piotr plows a field. 

HOUSE OF M #2 p15-17 
Chicago, presumably still the same morning 
Appearances : Beast, Yellowjacket 
The two Hanks discuss Pym's (illegal) work. Pym hasn't yet shown his work to Tony Stark. 

HOUSE OF M #2 p18 
Paris, late afternoon 
Appearances : Storm, Wasp 
Ororo tries a dress at Janet's. 

HOUSE OF M #2 pp19-22 
The Helicarrier, above New York City, still the same morning (W3 33 confirms it's still morning) 
Appearances : Wolverine, Mystique, Spider-Woman 1, Toad 
Logan has flashes of (real) past events, awakes, and discovers he's aboard the Helicarrier. 
FB : Logan goes out of a water tank, berserk and with lots of tubes attached. There are already lots of flashbacks covering this event, aren't there ? 

HOUSE OF M #3 pp1-11 
Continued from the previous bit 
Appearances : Wolverine, Mystique 
Logan has yet more flashes of the real past, freaks out and jumps off the Helicarrier. He reads the Pulse and "borrows" a bike. 
FB, all from the point of view of Logan : Logan against a white wolf, Logan & CA against ninjas, Logan being pumped adamantium into him, Logan vs. the Hulk, Dark Phoenix attacking the X-Men (Storm & Cyclops visible), Mariko breaking up with Logan, HOM 1 pp9-10 panel 5, HOM 1 p20 panel 1 
All of these presumably don't contain any new information, so we can ignore them. 
Page 4 panel 1 has a flashback set concurrently with HOM 1 p20-23, showing Xavier, Magneto, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch in the church. It's the same scene from the point of view of Logan, but it shows new information. 

HOUSE OF M #3 pp12-13 
Salem Center, Westchester County, night. 
Appearance : Wolverine 
Logan breaks into what should be the Xavier Institute, but can't get any information from the residents. 

HOUSE OF M #3 p14 
Outside a motel, presumably later the same night 
Appearances : Wolverine 
Logan tries to get Xavier's address from a public phone, but fails. He then goes to beat up some punk mutants that are roughing up a sapien girl. 

HOUSE OF M #3 pp15-19 
New York City, daytime 
Appearances : Wolverine, Forge, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Spider-Woman 1, Toad, Rogue, Cloak 
Logan goes to Stark Tower and is ambushed but the rest of the SHIELD Red Guard. He manages to get out and escape on his bike, only to be caught inside Cloak's cloak. 

HOUSE OF M #3 pp20-21 
Hell's Kitchen, New York, presumably just after the previous bit 
Appearances : Wolverine, Cage, Black Cat, Misty Knight, Iron Fist, Hawkeye, another blond guy and an asian (?) girl 
Behind the Scenes : Layla Miller, brown-haired guy, asian-looking guy, dark-haired girl 
Also, White Tiger, Moon Knight and the Sons of the Tiger are supposed to be there, so that's a BTS for those who aren't on panel. 
Cloak drops Logan off in Cage's gang secret hideout, where they ask him to take out his tracer. 

HOUSE OF M #4 pp1-2 
Genosha, daylight (so it's probably not in chronological order) 
Appearances : Magneto, one of Wanda's kids 
The kid shows Magneto one of his creations. 

HOUSE OF M #4 pp3-8 
Hell's Kitchen, New York, directly continued from the end of HOM 3 
Appearances : Wolverine, Cage, Black Cat, Misty Knight, Iron Fist, Layla Miller, Hawkeye, blond guy, brown-haired-guy, asian-looking guy, dark-haired girl, asian girl 
Hawkeye moronically shoots Wolverine down, which prevents him from destroying his tracer before some Sentinels arrive. Cloak helps most people to escape. 

HOUSE OF M #4 pp9-16 
Kingpin's headquarters, New York City, late afternoon 
Appearances : Wolverine, Cage, Layla Miller, Black Cat, Iron Fist, Cloak, Hawkeye, blond guy, brown-haired-guy, dark-haired girl, asian guy 
Cloak has transported most of the heroes to the Wilson Fisk's empty headquarters. They explain each other the whole HoM set-up, then decide to find reinforcements. 

HOUSE OF M #4 pp17-22 
Summers residence, Connecticut, evening (Emma comes back from work) 
Appearances : Same as above, plus Emma Frost 
Wolverine has Layla awake Emma Frost. 
FB from Emma's life : as a kid at school, with Shaw at the Hellfire Club, as a teacher with her New X-Men v1 costume, in embrace with Scott. Also, the same flashback in the church, with the added information that Xavier is under pressure. 

HOUSE OF M #5 pp1-5 
Same location, a bit later 
Appearances : Wolverine, Cage, Layla Miller, Black Cat, Iron Fist, Cloak, Hawkeye, blonde guy, dark-haired girl, Emma Frost, Cyclops, brown-hair-guy-BTS, asian guy-BTS 
Emma explains a few things to Layla, who then proceeds to wake Scott up (who just returns from work). They decide to go and wake more people up. 

HOUSE OF M #5 pp6-12 
New York City, daylight 
Appearances : Wolverine, Cage, Layla Miller, Cloak, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Spider-Man, May Parker, Black Cat, Iron Fist, blonde guy, brown-haired-guy, Hawkeye, Ben Parker, Gwen Stacy, Richie Parker 
For some reason, dark-haired-girl and asian-guy have disappeared. 
The heroes wake Peter up, and Emma quiets down his family. 
Various FB of Spider-Man's past, mainly vignettes of friends and villains. Also, his marriage with MJ, Gwen falling from the bridge, and Dead Gwen. Nothing new. 

HOUSE OF M #5 p13 panels 1-3 
Inside Kitty Pride's school, Cincinnati, Ohio 
Appearances : Shadowcat, Layla Miller 
Behind the scenes : Wolverine, Cage, Cloak, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Spider-Man, Black Cat, Iron Fist, blonde guy, brown-haired-guy, Hawkeye 
Layla wakes Kitty up. 

HOUSE OF M #5 p13 panels 4-6 
Greenwitch Village, late afternoon ? 
Appearances : Doctor Strange, Layla Miller 
Behind the scenes : Wolverine, Cage, Cloak, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Spider-Man, Black Cat, Iron Fist, blonde guy, brown-haired-guy, Shadowcat, Hawkeye 
Layla wakes Stephen up. 

HOUSE OF M #5 p13 panels 7-9 
Washington, DC 
Appearances : Ms Marvel (as Captain Marvel), Layla Miller 
Behind the scenes : Wolverine, Cage, Cloak, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Spider-Man, Black Cat, Iron Fist, blonde guy, brown-haired-guy, Shadowcat, Doctor Strange, Hawkeye 
Layla wakes Carol up. 

HOUSE OF M #5 p14 panels 1-3 
Chicago, evening ? 
Appearances : Iron Man, Layla Miller 
Behind the scenes : Wolverine, Cage, Cloak, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Spider-Man, Black Cat, Iron Fist, blonde guy, brown-haired-guy, Shadowcat, Doctor Strange, Ms Marvel, Hawkeye 
Layla wakes Tony up. 

HOUSE OF M #5 p14 panels 4-6 
Hell's Kitchen, New York, morning ? 
Appearances : She-Hulk, Daredevil, Layla Miller 
Behind the scenes : Wolverine, Cage, Cloak, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Spider-Man, Black Cat, Iron Fist, blonde guy, brown-haired-guy, Shadowcat, Doctor Strange, Ms Marvel, Iron Man, Hawkeye 
Layla wakes Jen & Matt up. 

HOUSE OF M #5 p14 panels 7-9 
The Bronx, morning 
Appearances : Captain America, Cyclops, Emma Frost, Layla Miller, Cloak, Wolverine 
Behind the scenes : Cage, Spider-Man, Black Cat, Iron Fist, blonde guy, brown-haired-guy, Shadowcat, Doctor Strange, Ms Marvel, Iron Man, She-Hulk, Daredevil, Hawkeye 
The heroes look at the very old Steve and decide not to bother. 

HOUSE OF M #5 pp15-19 
somewhere presumably in New York, daytime 
Appearances : Layla Miller, Wolverine, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Ms Marvel, Hawkeye, Cloak, Daredevil, She-Hulk, Iron Fist, brown-haired guy, Shadowcat, Black Cat, Cage, Iron Man, Dr Strange, Spider-Man, Mystique, Rogue, Spider-Woman 1, Nightcrawler, Toad 
Blonde guy seems to have disappeared. 
Emma Frost explains the situation to all heroes, and they get ambushed by the Red Guard. Layla wakes the Red Guard up. Hawkeye storms off. They decide to go to Genosha. 

HOUSE OF M #5 pp20-21 
Genosha, daytime (half an hour until Doom's arrival) 
Appearances : Magneto, Polaris 
Magneto sulks a bit and goes to Xavier's tomb. 

HOUSE OF M #6 pp1-2 
The Helicarrier. Daytime when it's over New York City, sunset as it heads to Genosha 
Appearances : Spider-Woman 1, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Spider-Man, Layla Miller, Scalphunter 
Behind the scenes : Wolverine, Cage, Cloak, She-Hulk, Iron Fist, Rogue, Toad, Ms Marvel, brown-haired-guy, Shadowcat, Black Cat, Dr Strange, Iron Man, Daredevil (plus, from communications : Black Widow 1, Sebastian Shaw, "Sitwell") 
Why does Emma say she's generating 17 illusions ? I only count 16 non-Red Guard heroes. 
Ours heroes get aboard the helicarrier, and Emma Frost orders it to go to Genosha. 

HOUSE OF M #6 pp3-4 
Genosha, sunset 
Appearances : Magneto, Quicksilver, Polaris, Doom 
The royal family welcomes Doom. 

HOUSE OF M #6 pp5-8 
Aboard the Helicarrier 
Appearances : Cyclops, Emma Frost, Layla Miller, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman 1, She-Hulk, Daredevil, Dr Strange, Shadowcat, Cage, Cloak, Iron Fist, Black Cat, Rogue, Toad, brown-haired guy, Ms Marvel, Nightcrawler, Mystique 
Behind the scenes : Iron Man (can't see him), Jessica Jones, Ant-Man 3/Scott Lang (we hear their answering machine) 
Luke tries phoning Jessica. The heroes debate their course of action and Scott starts exposing his plan. 

HOUSE OF M #6 pp9-22 
Genosha, evening 
Appearances : Magneto, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, her two kids, Polaris, Spider-Man, Black Cat, She-Hulk, Mystique, Cyclops, Iron Man, Daredevil, Spider-Woman 1, Rogue, brown-haired guy, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Nightcrawler, Shadowcat, Toad, Ms Marvel, Cage, Layla Miller, Emma Frost, Cloak, Storm, Namor, Captain Marvel 3, Black Panther 
Behind the scenes : Dr Strange (off to see Wanda), Doom 
The royal family show themselves to the audience. The heroes hide themselves in a Sentinel and send it at Magneto (who stops it). Big fight. Meanwhile, Layla, Emma & Cloak go to Xavier's tomb, but find it empty. 

HOUSE OF M #7 
Genosha, night 
Appearances : Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Spider-Woman 1, brown-haired guy, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Ms Marvel, She-Hulk, Iron Man, Cage, Iron Fist, Storm, Doom, Sauron, Namor, Blob, Black Cat, Polaris, QuickSilver, Scarlet Witch, her kids, Magneto, Dr Strange, Emma Frost, Layla Miller, Shadowcat, Toad, Cloak, Hawkeye 
Behind the scenes : Mystique (can't see her), Captain Marvel 3, Black Panther 
More fighting. Scarlet Witch disintegrates, and Strange goes off to find the real one. He confronts her, learns the truth, and tells it to everybody. Hawkeye reappears from nowhere and shoots down Wanda. Wanda recovers and kills Hawkeye again. Magneto gets very angry and kills Pietro. Wanda feels betrayed and starts a second reality warp. 

Flashback (pp8-12) : repeats HOM 1 pp12-13, then adds a conversation between Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch. 


Summary, day by day : 
Day Minus One : Wanda's fit, Xavier and Magneto discuss (HOM 1 pp1-6) 
Day Zero : Xavier and the heroes meet and go to Genosha, reality warp at the end (HOM 1 pp7-23) 
Day One : Wolverine wakes up and goes at night to Wechester (HOM 1p24-3p14) 
Day Two : Stark Tower, Human Resistance, Scott & Emma (HOM 3p15-5p5) 
Day Three : Spider-Man, Kitty, Strange, Ms Marvel, Tony Stark (HOM 5p6-5p14) 
Day Four : DD & SH, CA, Red Guard, The Helicarrier (HOM 5 pp14-19, 6 pp1-2) 
Day Five : Royal family scenes, celebration in Genosha, big battle in Genosha in the night, reality warp at the end (HOM 5 p20-21, 6p3 - 7) 


[edit] Namor's appearances, added info in day-by-day summary 
[edit] I was missing two pages of HOM 6, this was just corrected

Last edited by JD on 05 Nov 2005 03:04 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 04 Nov 2005 09:07 am    
By JD

HOUSE OF M #8 
Writer : Brian M. Bendis 
Penciller : Olivier Coipel 
Published in November 2005 


HOUSE OF M #8 p1 
Morning, establishing shots of Stark Tower, the Xavier Institute and, er, the Baxter Building ? 
Everything seems back to normal. 

HOUSE OF M #8 p2 
New York City, Morning 
Appearances : Layla Miller, somebody off-panel waking her up 
Layla wakes up at her home. 

HOUSE OF M #8 pp3-5 
Stark Tower, Morning 
Appearances : Spider-Man, Mary-Jane Parker-Watson, Falcon, Cage, Ms Marvel, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman 1, Sentry, Iron Man, Dr Strange 
Peter wakes up and is very confused. Later, he meets with most of the other Avengers who are also very confused. MJ, Falcon, Sentry and Iron Man are explicitly stated as remembering nothing. The others remember just being in Genosha. Strange appears suddenly, not looking well at all. 

HOUSE OF M #8 pp6-14 
Xavier Institute, morning 
Appearances : Emma Frost, Wallflower, Wind Dancer, Shadowcat, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Cyclops, Wolverine, Tag, Beast, Mirage, Iceman, various students 
Everybody wakes up and is very shocked to find that a lot of mutants were depowered (explicitly stated : Wind Dancer, Tag, Iceman). Wolverine is in shock, remembering all his life. Even with Cerebro, Emma can only locate a small number of mutants in the world. Wanda and Xavier are impossible to find. 

HOUSE OF M #8 pp15-17 
Stark Tower, morning, clouds 
Appearances : Iron Man, Sentry, She-Hulk, Captain America, Spider-Woman 1, Spider-Man, Cage, Falcon, Ms Marvel, Doctor Strange, Jarvis, Wonder Man 
The Avengers are listening to newsflashes and are still very confused. Tony notices that someone is at the Mansion. 

HOUSE OF M #8 pp18-19 
Avengers Mansion, clouds 
Appearances : Iron Man, Captain America, She-Hulk, Cage, Sentry, Wonder Man, Spider-Man, Falcon, Ms Marvel, Spider-Woman 1 
The Avengers find that someone has ericted a memorial to Hawkeye (with the newspaper article he was looking at in PULSE 10). 

HOUSE OF M #8 pp20-22 
Genosha, dawn ? 
Appearances : Magneto, Cyclops, Emma Frost, Wolverine, Beast, Shadowcat, Colossus 
The X-Men find a depowered Magneto alone in Genosha and decide to leave him there (since he wasn't responsible for the whole HoM thing). He doesn't know either where Wanda and Pietro are. 

HOUSE OF M #8 p23 
a village somewhere in Center/Eastern Europe (?), morning 
Appearance : Scarlet Witch 
Wanda can be seen doing purchases in a traditionnal market 

HOUSE OF M #8 pp23-26 
panning out to show the entire Earth 
Appearance : Yellowjacket 
There is a voice-over with an interview of Hank Pym about the situation. 


Summary : all of this seems to happen on Day Six.

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Thread 74

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:05 am    Post subject: M/CP 147/2: Falcon
By Col_Fury

M/CP 147/2: Falcon 
Legacy 
W: Mariano Nicieza 
D: Steve Leiber 
Published: February 1994 

Appearances: 
Falcon(Sam Wilson), Equinox(Terry Sorenson), Peggy Carter-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Falcon talks to a cop after a building explodes. 
The next day: Sam calls Peggy to get some information, finds out that its Equinox behind the explosions. That night he goes to Equinoxs place & after a fight, Falcon discovers that Equinoxs daughter is causing the explosions. 
Three weeks later: Leaving a courthouse, Sam & Terry talk. 

References: 
There have been five explosions in the last three weeks. 
Sams been looking into the Sorenson girl for weeks now, probably three because thats when Terry started beating his daughter to teach her to control her powers that she inherited from him. 

Sam calls Peggy, but we dont see her or hear her voice. We just see Sams reactions. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Falcon/Sam Wilson 
 
CA 418 
*M/CP 147/2 
FW 10/2 
 

Carter, Peggy 
 
CA 422 
*M/CP 147/2-BTS 
CA 424-BTS 
 

Equinox/Terry Sorenson 
 
M/TU 60 
*M/CP 147/2 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 75

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:06 am    Post subject: M/CP 147/3: Masters of Silence
By Col_Fury

M/CP 147/3: Masters of Silence 
Serpents Teeth 
W: Len Kaminski 
D: David Cullen 
Published: February 1994 

Appearances: 
Inazuma(Lightning), Kaze(Wind), Kaminari(Thunder). 

Synopsis: 
In Tokyo, the Masters of Silence kills a gang of biker punks in six and a half seconds. They were hired by the punks parents. 

Some suggested chronology placements: 

Inazuma(Lightning) 
 
M/CP 142/2 
*M/CP 147/3 

Kaze(Wind) 
 
M/CP 142/2 
*M/CP 147/3 

Kaminari(Thunder) 
 
M/CP 142/2 
*M/CP 147/3 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 76

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:07 am    Post subject: M/CP 148/2: Black Panther
By Col_Fury

M/CP 148/2: Black Panther 
Triumph of the Hunter 
W&D: Don Hillsman 
Published: February 1994 

Appearances: 
Black Panther(TChalla) 

Synopsis: 
Black Panther tracks some poachers, but finds out theyre actually kidnappers. When they start abusing their hostages, he attacks! He is then attacked by Sabretooth, who turns out to be an LMD, & the kidnapees are actually SHIELD agents . 

References: 
A full moon is seen in Africa. 

A chronology placement suggestion: 

Black Panther/TChalla 
 
CA 417 
*M/CP 148/2 
FFU 1 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 77

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:08 am    Post subject: M/CP 148/3: Captain Universe
By Col_Fury

M/CP 148/3: Captain Universe 
Hearts and Minds 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Bill Wiley 
Published: February 1994 

Appearances: 
Elijah Jackson, Simone Jackson, Captain Universe entity. 

Synopsis: 
Simone is feeding her invalid father, then goes to the pawnshop to get some cash by selling some of her dads things to buy some food. When she returns, some hooligans try to rob her, but Elijah has the Captain Universe powers! He beats them up, tells his daughter he loves her, then the power leaves. We see it flying out the window. 

References: 
No Steve Coffin here! If we ever decide to list the entitys appearances, heres an appearance.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 78

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:10 am    Post subject: M/CP 149/2: Daughters of the Dragon
By Col_Fury

M/CP 149/2: Daughters of the Dragon 
Til Death do us Part 
W: Floyd Hughes 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: March 1994 

Appearances: 
Colleen Wing, Misty Knight, Ann, Ron. 

Synopsis: 
In a hospital, Misty talks to Ann whos been beaten by her husband, Ron. 
Meanwhile, Colleen beats the crap out of Ron. 
Colleen brings Ron to the hospital & Ann decides to press charges. 

Some suggested chronology placements: 

Wing, Colleen 
 
M/CP 136/3 
*M/CP 149/2 
ASMU 13 
 

Knight, Misty 
 
M/CP 136/3 
*M/CP 149/2 
ASMU 13 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 79

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:16 am    Post subject: M/CP 149/3: Starjammers
By Col_Fury

M/CP 149/3: Starjammers 
Beyond the Call 
W: Kelly Corverse 
D: Alexander Morrissy 
Published: March 1994 

Appearances: 
Corsair(Christopher Summers), Hepzibah, Raza, Chod, Crree. 

Synopsis: 
The Starjammers are cruising through space when theyre forced to land on the Aris planet. The Aris ask for the Starjammers help against the Shiar, Corsair decides to help. They need to find a gem in a cave to power the force field machine, but theyre separated after a cave-in. Raza & Hepzibah ae attacked by snake-like creatures, then a monster. They get a gem & meet back up with the others. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Corsair/Christopher Summers 
... 
XCAL 70 
*M/CP 149/3 
STARJAM 2-FB-BTS 
 

Mamselle Hepzibah 
 
XCAL 70 
*M/CP 149/3 
STARJAM 2-FB-BTS 
 

Raza Longknife 
 
XCAL 70 
*M/CP 149/3 
STARJAM 2-FB-BTS 
 

Chod 
 
XCAL 70 
*M/CP 149/3 
STARJAM 2-FB-BTS 
 

Cr'ree 
... 
A 350 
*M/CP 149/3 
STARJAM 2-FB 
... 

--edited to include Cr'ree, & to correct his spelling. 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 80

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:17 am    Post subject: M/CP 149/4: Namor
By Col_Fury

M/CP 149/4: Namor 
Diver Down 
W: John Figueroa 
D: Phil Hugh Felix 
Published: March 1994 

Appearances: 
Namor, the Sub-Mariner. 

Synopsis: 
The Blue Diver submarine is taking its annual trip to check for environmental crimes, & Namor is watching it like he does every year. However, a Russian sub has been hired to destroy the Blue Diver! Namor stops them, of course. 

References: 
Its an annual occurrence, but its not said if its always in the same week or even month. 

N 50 ends a series of crossovers, N 51 is a fill-in issue, & N 52 starts a new arc, so heres a chronology placement suggestion: 

Sub-Mariner/Namor MacKenzie 
 
FF 387 
*M/CP 149/4 
N 51 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 81

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:19 am    Post subject: M/CP 147/4 & 148/4: American Eagle
By Col_Fury

These are not continued stories, they just happened to be published in two consecutive issues. 

M/CP 147/4: American Eagle 
Saint and Sinners 
W: John Figueroa 
D: Ron Wilson 
Published: February 1994 

Appearances: 
American Eagle(Jason Strongbow), Frank Ramirez, Alan Sinclair(the Sinner), Tommy St. Clair. 

Synopsis: 
American Eagle & Frank Ramirez are after a drug runner little kid Tommy St. Clair! They find him but he wont go home unless American Eagle frees Tommys friends from slavery under the Sinner. So American Eagle beats the Sinner up. 

M/CP 148/4: American Eagle 
500 Guns 
W: John Figueroa 
D: Ron Wilson 
Published: February 1994 

Appearances: 
American Eagle(Jason Strongbow), John Marshall. 

Synopsis: 
Somewhere in the Middle East, American Eagle is captured by John Marshall, a rich guy American Eagle once brought up on real estate charges. 
The next morning American Eagle escapes, & leads Marshall & his goons to an army of Interpol agents! 

References: 
Pg1-pg5 are one night with a full moon, pg6-pg8 are the next morning. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

American Eagle/Jason Strongbow 
 
M/CP 130/3 
*M/CP 147/4 
*M/CP 148/4 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 82

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 04:21 am    Post subject: M/CP 147-148, 149: Vengeance
By Col_Fury

M/CP 147-148 is a two-parter, M/CP 149 is a standalone story. 

M/CP 147: Vengeance 
Tower of Blood pt 1 
W: Chris Cooper 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: February 1994 

Appearances: 
Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Psiphon. 

Synopsis: 
Vengeance rides his motorcycle into the side of a skyscraper where 70 or so workers have been slaughtered. He kills some of the henchman before Psiphon reveals himself & tells Vengeance that he arranged all of this just to get his attention. Psiphon then beats up Vengeance & says that Vengeance is the source of Psiphons powers. 

References: 
The intro box reminds us that Ghost Rider is dead, so this takes place after GR3 46. 

M/CP 148: Vengeance 
Tower of Blood pt 2 
Vengeance Forsaken! 
W: Chris Cooper 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: February 1994 

Appearances: 
Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Psiphon, Sam Buchanan. 

Synopsis: 
Psiphon has Vengeance tied up on top of the Statue of Liberty, along with some hostages. Vengeance breaks free & kills Psiphon. 
Most likely the next day, the US government has hired Sam Buchanan to go after Vengeance! 

References: 
The story is all in one night, with the exception of pg 8 of part 2, which is most likely the next day. 

M/CP 149: Vengeance 
the Price 
W: Chris Cooper 
D: Reggie Jones 
Published: March 1994 

Appearances: 
Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Linda Wei. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Vengeance kills a burglar after he robbed a convenience store & killed the clerk. 
Pg4-pg8: Two days later: Michael Badilino finds out that the burglar was a cop, from the news reported by Linda Wei. Mike goes to visit the dead cops family & stops their son Billy from randomly shooting people from the roof. 

References: 
Vengeance is referred to as the Ghost Rider, so this is after GR3 46 & before GR3 50. 

Its sometime before Christmas, Santa is seen collecting money & the cops family has a tree up. 

Some suggested chronology placements: 

Vengeance/Michael Badilino 
 
GR3 46 
*M/CP 147 
*M/CP 148 
*M/CP 149 
GR3 47 
 

Buchanan, Samson 
 
MSU 4 
*M/CP 148 
MORBIUS 29 

Wei, Linda 
 
GR3 44 
*M/CP 149 
GR3 50 
 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 83

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 08:57 am    Post subject: [HoM crossover] WOLVERINE v3 #33-35
By JD

At last, the one analysis I had actually registered to do. 
Well, it will be fairly quick, as it's mostly flashbacks of false memories. 

WOLVERINE v3 #33-35 
Writer : Daniel Way 
Art : Javier Saltares & Mark Texeira 
Published from September to October 2005 



WOLVERINE v3 #33 pp1-2 
The Helicarrier, above NYC, early morning 
Appearances : Sebastian Shaw, "Agent Coleridge" 
Shaw looks at footage of the scene depicted in HOM 3 pp3-6. (This flashback adds no new information.) 

WOLVERINE v3 #33 pp3-24 
Shaw's office, the Helicarrier, above NYC, "Four hours later", daytime (probably the afternoon) 
Appearances : Sebastian Shaw, Mystique 
Shaw interrogates Mystique about an operation in Mexico with Logan and her "two weeks ago". 
There are lots of flashback pages depicting these events, but I'll ignore them since they're false memories. Moreover, the narrator is not reliable (as explicited in #35). 

WOLVERINE v3 #34 pp1-23 
Shaw's office, the Helicarrier, above NYC, late afternoon 
Appearances : Sebastian Shaw, Mystique 
Yet more scenes of two people narrating flashbacks at each other. Only one page of Mexico, the rest of the flashbacks are set "twenty-three years ago". 

WOLVERINE v3 #35 pp1-3 
Shaw's office, the Helicarrier, above NYC, late afternoon 
Appearances : Sebastian Shaw, Mystique 
Shaw orders Mystique to be incarcerated. 

WOLVERINE v3 #35 pp4-5 
The Helicarrier, above NYC, night 
Appearances : Sebastian Shaw, a forensic officer 
Shaw gathers more data about the death of Nick Fury. 

WOLVERINE v3 #35 pp6-25 
Mystique's cell, the Helicarrier, above NYC, late afternoon 
Appearances : Sebastian Shaw, Mystique 
Mystique confesses she's set up the whole Mexico thing. Shaw releases her and sends her to get Logan back. 
Flashbacks to the end of the Mexico operation (11 days ago, completely unreliable) and to a conversation between Logan and Mystique two months ago (when he first told him about Fury). 


Placement : Day One.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 12:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JD! 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2005 05:06 am    Post subject: Warlock vol 5, 1-4
By Col_Fury

Warlock vol. 5 #1 
Second Coming pt 1 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Charlie Adlard 
Published: November 2004 

Appearances: 
Maris Morlak-BTS, Professor Wladyslav Shinski-BTS, Carlo Zota-BTS, Warlock V-BTS, Danny-BTS, Adam Warlock-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Janie Chin has been hired to re-design Warlock for a movie wait! This is all a program to create a new Warlock. The Enclave is up to old tricks 

Warlock vol. 5 #2 
Second Coming pt 2 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Charlie Adlard 
Published: December 2004 

Appearances: 
Maris Morlak-BTS, Professor Wladyslav Shinski-BTS, Carlo Zota-BTS, Warlock V-BTS, Danny-BTS, Adam Warlock-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Its all a dream! 

Warlock vol. 5 #3 
Second Coming pt 3 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Charlie Adlard 
Published: January 2005 

Appearances: 
Maris Morlak-BTS, Professor Wladyslav Shinski-BTS, Carlo Zota-BTS, Warlock V-BTS, Danny-BTS, Adam Warlock-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Its all a dream! 

Warlock vol. 5 #4 
Second Coming conclusion 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Charlie Adlard 
Published: February 2005 

Appearances: 
Maris Morlak, Professor Wladyslav Shinski, Carlo Zota, Warlock V, Danny, Adam Warlock. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: Adam Warlock disguised as Mr. Smith watches the new Warlocks programming. 
Pg2-pg27: Its all a dream! 
Pg28-pg32: The new female Warlock awakens surrounded by the Enclave scientists. Morlak, Shinski, & Zota are confused, and they mention a data download. Danny shows up & mentions that this is his Warlock design. She flies away, ending the issue. 

References: 

Pg1 & pg 28-pg32 of this issue are the only parts of this series that actually happened, the rest was all a dream 

In the dream, Janie designed the new Warlock. In reality, Danny was the designer. Also, there is no Janie Chin. She was a set of false memories for the purposes of the program. 

Two days ago someone downloaded data into the new Warlock, most likely Mr. Smith. Its also revealed in this issue that Mr. Smith is actually Adam Warlock in disguise. 

Just how long the Enclave has been doing this, who knows. But its longer than two days, thats for sure. 

I think its safe to say that the new female Warlock is the titular character, & would therefore be labeled as Warlock V. 

The three Enclave scientists are feeding the program into Warlock V, Warlock V is dreaming it, Danny designed it, & Adam Warlock manipulated the programming, giving everyone a BTS notation for the first three issues. 

With all of that in mind, herere some chronology placement suggestions: 

Warlock II/Adam Warlock 
 
THANOS 6 
*WLOCK5 1-BTS 
*WLOCK5 2-BTS 
*WLOCK5 3-BTS 
*WLOCK5 4 

Morlak, Maris 
 
FF3 12 
*WLOCK5 1-BTS 
*WLOCK5 2-BTS 
*WLOCK5 3-BTS 
*WLOCK5 4 

Shinski, Professor Wladyslav 
 
FF3 12 
*WLOCK5 1-BTS 
*WLOCK5 2-BTS 
*WLOCK5 3-BTS 
*WLOCK5 4 

Zota, Carlo 
 
SMTU 7 
*WLOCK5 1-BTS 
*WLOCK5 2-BTS 
*WLOCK5 3-BTS 
*WLOCK5 4 

Warlock V 
*WLOCK5 1-BTS 
*WLOCK5 2-BTS 
*WLOCK5 3-BTS 
*WLOCK5 4 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2005 10:29 am    
By Somebody

I placed this series between SMTU7 and FF3 3 for the Enclave, and before Infinity Abyss-FB for Adam Warlock, since Morlak gets killed in FF3 12 among other things. And why BTS "Janie" and "Mr Smith"/AW for 1-3? If telephone conversations are apps, surely walking and talking in VR should count. And why count p1 as "really happening" whatever way you cut it when you're not counting "Mr Smith"'s other apps? He's not physically disguised as Smith, it's VR avatar 

So I had it: 
WARLOCK II/ADAM WARLOCK 
[...] 
WLOCK3 4 
*WLOCK5 1 
*WLOCK5 2 
*WLOCK5 3 
*WLOCK5 4 
IA 1-FB 
[...] 

WARLOCK IV (provisional)/"JANIE CHIN" 
*WLOCK5 1 
*WLOCK5 2 
*WLOCK5 3 
*WLOCK5 4 

MORLAK, MARIS 
[...] 
SMTU 7 
*WLOCK5 1 - BTS 
*WLOCK5 2 - BTS 
*WLOCK5 3 - BTS 
*WLOCK5 4 
FF3 12 

SHINSKI, PROFESSOR WLADYSLAV 
[...] 
SMTU 7 
*WLOCK5 1 - BTS 
*WLOCK5 2 - BTS 
*WLOCK5 3 - BTS 
*WLOCK5 4 
FF3 3 
[...] 

ZOTA, CARLO 
[...] 
SMTU 7 
*WLOCK5 1 - BTS 
*WLOCK5 2 - BTS 
*WLOCK5 3 - BTS 
*WLOCK5 4

			*	*	*

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
And why BTS "Janie" and "Mr Smith"/AW for 1-3? If telephone conversations are apps, surely walking and talking in VR should count. 
<<<

Is the virtual reality a representation of what the characters are actually doing and saying, at the time (like a video monitor), or were the actions and words previously programmed (or even under the direct control of the characters, without truly representing their actions)? 

If the former, I would say it's a true appearance; if the latter, it's behind the scenes. 


watching: jetsons

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Nov 2005 05:53 pm    
By Col_Fury

The program had a male Warlock running around Cost Rica with Janie Chin tagging along, the Enclave scientists were following to check on his progress. 

In reality, they never left the compound. The program happened entirely in the female Warlock's head & didn't represent anything in the real world. There was no male Warlock, & the female Warlock didn't go into Costa Rica to kill insurgents. So no, the program didn't represent actual events. 

The Enclave scientists were watching the program in issue 4 after pg27, & 'Mr. Smith' was watching it on a video monitor outside of the program on pg1 of issue 4. It's revealed that Adam Warlock was manipulating the program that the scientists were running, so all four of them had direct control over the program. 

That sounds like the second option to me. 

However, I do think Somebody is correct in the placements. I had forgotten about Morlak dying in FF3 12. 

Thanks for the feedback, guys!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 85

Posted: 07 Nov 2005 01:44 am    Post subject: Marvel Monster: Where Monsters Dwell
By Col_Fury

Unlike the other recent Marvel Monster books, this has no Marvel heroes interacting with the monsters, or even making an appearance. 

Where Monsters Dwell 1 
Bring on the Bombu! 
W & D: Keith Giffen 
Published: December 2005 

Appearances: 
Bombu, Bombus boss. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: FB-Bombu in space conquering worlds. 
Pg2pn1: FB-Bombu lands on Earth. 
Pg2pn2-pn4: FB- Bombu encounters humans 
Pg2pn5: Bombu is struck by lightning. 
Pg2pn6: The humans run away. 
Pg3: Bombu talks to his boss about his failure on Earth. 
Pg4pn1: FB-Bombu is pelted with garbage. 
Pg4pn2-pg5: The decision is made for Bombu to go back to Earth. 
Pg6: Bombu threatens the citizens of Earth in an unspecified American city. Hes quickly subdued by some cops with a taser gun. 
Pg7: Later, Bombu is in jail. 
Pg8: On Oobagon VIII, Bombus homeworld, Bombus boss receives Bombus only phone call. 

The End  for now. 

The art & dot coloring styles harkens back to 60s Marvel monster books, suggesting this story took place not long after the first invasion. Most likely not in the current day. 

The FlashBacks on pg1-pg2 & pg4pn1 most likely repeat information seen in Journey into Mystery 60, but I dont have a copy of that so I couldnt tell you for sure. 

Where Monsters Dwell 1/2 
the Return of Monstrollo, the Terror of Hollywood 
W: Peter David 
D: Arnold Pander 
Published: December 2005 

Appearances: 
Charles Hudson, Roger Cashman, Rachel Tompkins, Steven Spielberg-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: The shadow on Monstrollo over Roger Cashman & Rachel Tompkins on the set of Who Elected Her? 
Pg2pn1: Ten years ago, Charles Hudson is seen in his office, hes the biggest movie producer in town. 
Pg2pn2-pn4: Ten years later, Charles Hudson is seen in his office, hes broke and no one will hire him. Hes looking at the newspaper headlines that ruined him. 
Pg2pn5: Charles is in a bar with Roger, telling him about his Monstrollo robot chasing away aliens. 
Pg3pn1-pn2: The story is in the newspapers & everyone thinks hes crazy. No one will give him a job. 
Pg3pn3-pn5: Charles tries to get movie star Rachel Tompkins to be in his new idea for a TV series called Mrs. President. 
Pg4: Charles pitches Mrs. President to Roger, who turns him down. 
Pg5pn1-pn3: That night at his rundown studio, Charles has some beers with the inactive Monstrollo. 
Pg5pn4-pn5, pg6-pg7: Weeks passed, maybe months Watching TV, Charles hears about a new TV show coming this fall called Who Elected Her? starring Rachel Tompkins & produced by Roger Cashman. He calls them both, they both brush him off. Aliens arrive & re-animate Monstrollo. 
Pg8-pg9: The next day Charles shows up at the set with Monstrollo, who is now Charles agent. They work out a deal for rights over the show. Pg8pn5 is very similar to pg1, Monstrollos shadow on the set, and the characters have moved slightly. Pg1 fits very nicely between pg8pn4 & pg8pn5. 
Pg10: Charles is now shooting the second season of WEH? Charles waves to Rachel as she drives onto the set. Monstrollo is on the phone with Steven Spielberg, convincing him to direct the Monstrollo Story. 

References: 
The story is narrated by Charles Hudson in the past tense until pg8. pg8 & pg9 have no narration, & pg10 has current narration. I would think that means that pg2-pg7 are FlashBacks. 

The hot new TV series this fall is being filmed now, so most likely pg5pn4-pg7 happens in August. 

Pg10 says that theyre shooting the second season, so this is a year or so later. 

Rearranging the story in chronological order, we have this: 

Pg2pn1: Back in the day, sometime after Tales of Suspense 25. 
Pg2pn5: Blabbing the story of TOS 25 in the bar. 
Pg3pn1-pn2: The story hits the papers, Charles is ruined. 
Pg2pn2-pn4: Ten years after pg2pn1, Charles in his office. 
Pg3pn3-pn5: Talking to Rachel Tompkins. 
Pg4: The next day, turned down by Roger. 
Pg5pn1-pn3: that night, drinking with Monstrollo. 
Pg5pn4-pg7: Weeks, maybe months later, the show is renamed, Monstrollo lives! 
Pg8pn1-pn4, pg1, pg8pn5-pg9: Charles & Monstrollo show up on set. 
Pg10: A year or so later, Charles in back in the game. 

Where Monsters Dwell 1/3 
the Shadow on Manoo 
W: Jeff Parker 
D: Russell Braun 
Published: December 2005 

Appearances: 
Manoo(as Billie), Evan, Evans alien imposter, Alien Imposter(Professor Guinan), Alien Imposter(Dean Haspiel), Alien Imposter(Terri). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1: Billie is pointing a ray gun at Professor Guinan. 
Pg1pn2-pn3: Two days ago: Billies on a camping trip with her boyfriend Evan, she sees spaceships shooting at each other in the night sky. 
Pg2pn1-pn4: She finds one of the crashed ships. 
Pg2pn5: FB- the space craft was shot down by Manoo. 
Pg3pn1-pn3: The alien gives Billie a ray gun as it dies. 
Pg3pn4-pn5: The next day at Farnsworth college, Billie is looking for Manoo. 
Pg4-pg8: She talks to Professor Guinan, then her roommate Terri. Then she drives around. She thinks that the Dean is Manoo, but misses him, drives off. Later, she zaps Evan with the ray gun, killing the alien posing as him. She finds the real Evan in the closet. 
Pg9: The next day, today: Billie is at school, goes into the planetarium. A light shines on Professor Guinan, revealing his shadow that shows hes an alien. Billie points the ray gun at him. Pg1pn1 fits between pg9pn4 & pg9pn5. 
Pg10-pg11: Professor Guinan, Dean Haspiel, & Terri are all aliens in disguise, but they reveal her shadow, showing that Billie is actually Manoo! 
Pg12: A TV special showing how aliens like Manoo may already be  among us! 

References: 
The story is narrated in the past tense until pg9, today. So again, I would think that pg1pn2-pg8 would all be FlashBacks. 

Apparently Billie was Manoo the whole time, as was Terri, Dean Haspiel, & Professor Guinan. The aliens posing as people hide the real humans, so Evan was the only person who actually appeared. The rest were all alien imposters. 

Amazing Adventures #2 had Manoo running around Farnsworth College, just like this story. I guess he really likes that place 

Rearranging the story in chronological order, we have this: 

Pg2pn5: The space battle. 
Pg1pn2-pg2pn4: Two days ago, the camping trip. 
Pg3pn1-pn3: Billie gets the gun, the alien dies. 
Pg3pn4-pn5: The next day, Billies on a mission! 
Pg9pn1-pn4, pg1pn1, pg9pn5-pg11: The next day(today), The revelation! 
Pg12: Later, the TV special. 

And then there's a reprint of "I Was Trapped by Titano, the Monster That Time Forgot!" from Tales to Astonish #10. 

Thats the last of the Monster books! If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2005 10:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sounds like this story occurs pre-FF 1. Thanks for the analysis, Col_Fury. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 86

Posted: 07 Nov 2005 04:12 am    Post subject: Black Widow vol 3, 1-3
By Col_Fury

Black Widow vol. 3 #1 
Pale Little Spider pt 1 
W: Greg Rucka 
D: Igor Kordey 
Published: June 2002 

Appearances: 
Black Widow III(Yelena Belova), Maksim Keshikov Golitsyn, Val Dobrova, Capt. Anzehlika Medvedev, Lt. Col. Pyotr Starkovsky, General Tischenko, Nikki(Capt. Lubyev), Petra. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: One night in Moscow, police officers Maks & Val are responding to a call from the sex club Fabrika and discover the murder victim is Lt. Col. Starkovsky, whos been shot in the head. 
Pg6-pg7: Later in the morning, Yelena has just finished the stress-position exam. Anzehlika reminds her that she is the Black Widow, and that shes wanted in the ready room. 
Pg8-pg11: Reporting as ordered, General Tischenko informs her that her mentor, Starkovsky, has been killed in a sex club. Shes shocked! Also, key files regarding her as the Black Widow are missing from his office. Her mission: Investigate Starkovskys death, recover the missing files, and learn his secrets. 
Pg12-pg15: Later that day, Maks & Val are attending Starkovskys autopsy. Yelena & Anzehlika arrive and take over the investigation, which doesnt make Maks too happy. 
Pg16-pg22: That night, Yelena goes to Fabrika. Shes given a tour by Nikki and discovers what Starkovsky has been doing there. Hes been entertained by Petra dressed as a blond Back Widow. 

References: 
Starkovskys body was found early this morning, so the night of pg1-pg5 was after midnight, making this issue all taking place in one day. 

No moons visible in Moscow, but it is snowing. That doesnt tell us much, isnt it snowing all the time in Russia? 

Black Widow vol. 3 #2 
Pale Little Spider pt 2 
W: Greg Rucka 
D: Igor Kordey 
Published: July 2002 

Appearances: 
Black Widow III(Yelena Belova), Maksim Keshikov Golitsyn, Val Dobrova, Nikki(Capt. Lubyev), Petra. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Outside Fabrika, Maks talks to Val over C.B. She warns him from following up on this case, and that Yelena is the Black Widow. 
Pg4-pg11: Picking up from last issue, Yelena is disgusted by what she sees. After some harsh words, Nikki agrees to answer Yelenas questions. 
Pg12-pg15: Maks enters the club to further his investigation, looks around. 
Pg16-pg17: Nikki explains that Starkovsky fantasized about Yelena, and provided Nikki files on Black Widow to enhance his experience at the club. 
Pg18-pg22: Maks is looking for Yelena, but finds Petra dressed as her instead. She kills Maks, then talks crazy to herself. She thinks that she is the Black Widow. 

References: 
All in one night, same night as last issue. 

No, sorry. No moons. 

Black Widow vol. 3 #3 
Pale Little Spider pt 3 
W: Greg Rucka 
D: Igor Kordey 
Published: August 2002 

Appearances: 
Black Widow III(Yelena Belova), Maksim Keshikov Golitsyn(corpse), Val Dobrova, Capt. Anzehlika Medvedev, Lt. Col. Pyotr Starkovsky(in FB), General Tischenko, Nikki(Capt. Lubyev), Petra. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: FB- A young Yelena in a training session with Starkovsky. 
Pg4-pg5: Yelena & Nikki are looking for Petra. 
Pg6-pg9: Petra kills one of her co-workers, then meets Val who is looking for Maks. They go downstairs and Petra kills Val. 
Pg10-pg18: Yelena & Nikki go into Petras room, finds Maks corpse & the missing files. Petra arrives and attacks Yelena. After a brief fight, Yelena kills Petra. 
Pg19: The next morning, Anzehlika is dressing Yelenas wounds. She tells her that General Tischenko is expecting her. 
Pg20-pg22: Black Widow gives her report and leaves. Nikki enters in uniform and is revealed to be Capt. Lubyev. She reminds the General that they were responsible for Starkovskys death, and that it was the final training exercise for Yelena. 

References: 
The FlashBack in this issue is Yelenas earliest chronological appearance. 

Pg4-pg18 is the same night as last issue, pg19-pg22 is the next morning. 

There's no help with the moon phases this time, I'm afraid. 

Yelena keeps comparing herself to Natasha as the Black Widow throughout this series until the end, when she has apparently become more comfortable as the Black Widow. Also, the General & Captain say that this is her final training exercise. Im not entirely sure if this means that this series is meant to precede her other appearances up to this date, or if shes finally working out her issues, and thus falls chronologically in line with publication order. This reads like an origin story, and she seems pretty sure of herself in Black Widow volumes 1 & 2. Im inclined to say this takes place before them. 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 10:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Cool, Col_Fury. Thanks for another analysis!
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 87

Posted: 29 Oct 2005 02:07 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] UNCANNY X-MEN #462-465
By JD

UNCANNY X-MEN #462-465 
Writer : Chris Clarement 
Pencillers : Alan Davis & Chris Bachalo 
Published from July to October 2005 


UNCANNY X-MEN #462 p1 
Zanzibar, East Africa, probably sunset or night 
Appearances : Storm, Psylocke, Bishop, Marvel Girl 3, Nightcrawler 
The X-Men are fighting the Weaponners when they're hit by the first reality warp. Rachel and Betsy are somehow able to escape it... 

UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp2-4 
The White-Hot Room 
Appearances : Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3 
... and they end up trapped in the White-Hot Room. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp5-8 
Otherworld 
Appearances : Captain Britain, Meggan, Captain UK, Justicer Bull, another male CB I can't identify, Cerise, Kylun, lots of alternate-reality heroes 
Meggan screams as she senses the reality warp coming ; it then proceeds to obliterate Otherworld. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp9-17 
Roma's Starlight Citadel 
Appearances : Roma, Jim Jaspers (fused with the Fury), Captain Britain, Saturnyne, X-Com (Saturnyne's personnal guard, with male versions of Polaris, Rogue, Psylocke, Storm, Shadowcat and Marvel Girl 3), Jamie Braddock 
Behind the scenes : Meggan has probably arrived with Brian, but we don't actually see her. Idem for Justicer Bull and Captain UK (the male CB seems to have disappeared) 
Roma's Starlight Citadel is also hit hard by the reality warp, but manages to hold and serves as refuge against it. Weakened, Roma is attacked by a back-from-the-dead Jim Jaspers (courtesy of the weakened state of reality) but is saved by Brian. Saturnyne figures out that Earth-616 is yet again behind this, and sets out to destroy it. Brian tries to stop her but is delayed by X-Com (of course, he beats them up). Just as Saturnyne reaches for the Celestial Nullifier, Jamie drops a rock on it and disappears. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp18-19 
Roma's Council Chamber, Starlight Citadel, "later" 
Appearances : Roma, Saturnyne, Captain Britain, Meggan, Captain UK, Justicer Bull 
More arguing about what to do. Roma gives Brian and Meggan 48 hours to fix reality (the time for her and Saturnyne to fix the Celestial Nullifier) 

UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp20-22 
The White-Hot Room 
Appearances : Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3, Captain Britain, Jamie Braddock 
Behind the scenes : Presumably, Meggan, Captain UK and Justicer Bull are going back with Brian to Earth-616 
Betsy and Rachel play around in the White-Hot Room (they seem to have been there for at least a few hours, and look bored out of their mind). They then see Brian on his trip back to Earth-616, accompanied without knowing it by Jamie. Jamie decides they've seen enough and brings them back to Earth-616. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #462 p23 
Outside Braddock Manor, England, night 
Appearances : Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3 
Rachel and Betsy land near Braddock Manor, and see that they're looked upon by a giant Sentinel. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #463 pp1-5 
Continued from the last bit 
Appearances : Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3, Captain Britain, Meggan 
Rachel and Betsy get immediatly absorbed by the HoM reality. They go into the Manor, where a reception in honor of Magneto's birthday is held. They chat with Brian and Meggan. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #463 pp6-8 
Braddock Manor, "the night passes" 
Appearances : Captain Britain, Meggan ; in dream : Captain Britain, Saturnyne, Roma, Jamie Braddock, Meggan, Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3 
Brian has dreams about his mission (which he's forgotten) and the 48-hour ultimatum. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #463 pp9-14 
Braddock Manor, early morning 
Appearances : Captain Britain, Meggan, Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3, Pete Wisdom, Courtney Ross 
Brian talks about his dream, but everybody is baffled by it. As she enters the room, Courtney is attacked on sight by Brian, who thinks she's Sat-yr-9 (apparently, she's not). Pete brings the news of Logan having gone rogue, and that two mutants (since when is Juggernaut a mutant ?) are being chased by the Marauders in the West Country without Brian's autorisation. Brian decides to go and have a look at it. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #463 pp15-22 
West country, daylight 
Appearances : Captain Britain, Meggan, Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3, Pete Wisdom, Nocturne, Juggernaut, Callisto, Banshee, Blob, Mammomax, T-Rex, strong mutant 
Behind the scenes : Caliban, Black Tom Cassidy (seen in next issue) 
Juggernaut gets pounded by the Marauders until Brian & Co arrive and demand to check the paperwork. Betsy and Rachel localise Nocturne and go after her, trying not to get noticed (but they're followed by T-Rex). They find Nocturne and bring her out of hiding. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #464 pp1-7 
West country, daylight 
Appareances : Captain Britain, Meggan, Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3, Pete Wisdom, Nocturne, Callisto, T-Rex, Caliban, Black Tom Cassidy ; through Meggan : Saturnyne, Roma, Jamie Braddock 
Behind the scenes : Banshee, Mammomax, Blob, Juggernaut, strong mutant 
T-Rex, Caliban and Black Tom confront Besty and Rachel. TJ hides by possessing Rachel. Pete helps them subdue these Marauders, but the possessed Rachel flies off. Betsy goes after her, as do the remaining Marauders. Just before Callisto & Cie run off, Meggan is used as a channel by various people trying to remind Brian of his mission. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #464 pp8-15 panel 1 
going to the Excalibur Lighthouse, afternoon then sunset 
Appearances : Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3, Nocturne (possessing Rachel) 
After a long flight, Betsy fights the possessed Rachel until her consciousness regains predominance. They find out they're now near the Lighthouse, which has a big X-shaped gap in front of it. As Betsy steps over the gap, she's transformed back to normal. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #464 p15 panel 2 - p19 panel 1 
Braddock manor, night 
Appearances : Captain Britain, Meggan, Karima Shapandar, Jamie Braddock (through Meggan) 
Brian has yet more flashes of events in #462, and Jamie tries again to motivate him through Meggan. Just at that moment, they're attacked by Karima and lots of sentinels for high treason. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #464 p19 panel 2 - p21 panel 5 
Near the Lighthouse, dawn 
Appearances : Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3, Nocturne, Banshee, Callisto, T-Rex, Mammomax, Caliban 
Behind the scenes : Blob, Juggernaut (seen next issue) 
Rachel pulls Betsy out of the gap. They're attacked by the Marauders, who take out Rachel and Nocturne. Betsy has flashes of what is happening to Brian... 

UNCANNY X-MEN #464 p21 panel 3 - p23 
Braddock Manor, night 
Appearances : Captain Britain, Meggan, Karima Shapandar 
... while Brian has flashes of what happens to Betsy. They resist arrest by Karima and destroy a few sentinels, which annoys Karima. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #465 pp1-7 
Braddock Manor, night 
Appearances : Captain Britain, Meggan, Pete Wisdom, Courtney Ross, Captain UK, Justicer Bull, Karima Shapandar 
Yet more fighting. Two characters who weren't even shown before are revealed as the female CBs which were following Brian early on, and join the fight. Brian try reasonning Karima. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #465 p8 
Near the lighthouse, dawn 
Appearances : Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3, Nocturne, Banshee, Blob, T-Rex, Callisto, Juggernaut, Caliban, Mammomax 
Brian has another flash of what happens to Psylocke and Co. More fighting, with TJ taking Banshee over. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #465 pp9-11 panel 3 
Braddock Manor, night 
Appearances : Captain Britain, Meggan, Pete Wisdom, Courtney Ross, Captain UK, Justicer Bull, Karima Shapandar 
Karima kills Courtney before being taken out by Pete. the female CBs go contain the incoming sentinels so that Brian and Meggan can go save the world. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #465 p11 panel 4 - p23 
Near the lighthouse, daytime then night 
Appearances : Psylocke, Marvel Girl 3, Nocturne, Juggernaut, Captain Britain, Meggan, Pete Wisdom, Captain UK, Justicer Bull, Karima Shapandar, Blob, Callisto, Banshee, T-Rex, Mammomax ; Roma and Saturnyne appear in a two-panel insert on page 16, monitoring the situation 
Behind the scenes : Caliban (he was there last issue) 
The Marauders get defeated just as Brian and Meggan arrive. However, Karima and her sentinels arrive with unconscious Pete and CBs in tow. They attack, but their blast is reflected to them by Rachel and Betsy's telekinesis. Juggernaut uses Blob as a temporary block for the X-gap. Meggan sacrifies herself by hoping into the X-gap and somehow fighting the reality-breaking void inside. Everybody else closes the X-gap and reality is saved. 


Summary, day by day : 
Day One : reality warp, celebration of Magneto's birthday 
Day Two : finding Nocturne and Juggernaut, flight to the lighthouse 
Day Three : Maurauders and Sentinels attack at dawn, all-day fight, the X-gap is closed during the night 

I have no idea why our heroes would stand around doing nothing during Day Four and Five, so maybe we should insert a two-day gap between the reality warp and the celebration. It's a bit awkward any way.

Last edited by JD on 30 Oct 2005 01:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 05:56 pm    
By Enda80

Some of those alternate reality characters were seen earlier, the ones from #462 

Here we find 

http://www.jakanapes.com/Alternity/RealAlts/FFNamor.html 
Namor a member of the FF seen in What If II#27 or so. 

http://www.jakanapes.com/Alternity/RealAlts/XThing.html 
Thing an X-Man; seen earlier in Excalibur I#49-50. 

http://www.jakanapes.com/Alternity/RealAlt.html 

I think Cap'n Saxonia also showed up with her Caliburians. They showed up 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/caliburkeng.htm 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/lissorlo.htm 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/dinoworldexcalibur.htm#Punisaur 
with Dino-Steel 

http://www.jakanapes.com/Alternity/CapBritainCorps.html

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 06:52 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Linda McQuillan is Captain UK. Justicer Bull is from Excalibur #23. 

-Sean

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 07:03 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Enda, you're posting random links again. What is the relevance of a profile of Lisette Orlova?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 07:39 pm    
By Enda80

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
Enda, you're posting random links again. What is the relevance of a profile of Lisette Orlova? 


Well, as a Namor who was a FF member was in that issue, and she comes from such an Earth, that Namor could be the same.

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 08:05 pm    
By Somebody

Here's your elastic band, and here's your elastic band stretched to breaking point and beyond. *snap*

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Posted: 30 Oct 2005 01:53 am    
By JD

I've updated the appearances listings so that Captain UK and Justicer Bull are listed correctly.

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Posted: 30 Oct 2005 08:35 am    
By Enda80

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Here's your elastic band, and here's your elastic band stretched to breaking point and beyond. *snap*
<<<

I said that a Namor who was an FF member was in Uncanny X-Men I#462. I did not say anything directly about Mister Fantastic.


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Posted: 30 Oct 2005 10:09 am    
By jephyork
Director

If that was a joke it was a poor one. Hopefully you've taken Paul O's and Somebody's points about posting random links. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 10:55 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I have no idea why our heroes would stand around doing nothing during Day Four and Five, so maybe we should insert a two-day gap between the reality warp and the celebration. It's a bit awkward any way. 
<<<

Having just read the issues in question, I can now chime in a bit. Yay!  

Before leaving Otherworld, Roma gives CB a 48-hour deadline for closing the reality breach. So only two days pass while they're on earth -- we can't insert a two-day gap between the initial warp and the celebration. 

I gues I'm wondering, why CAN'T the characters in question all do nothing for the next two days? Or at least, nothing recorded on-panel -- they could have spent two days trying to break another hole in reality to save Meggan, for example, or tried to make contact with Otherworld to find a way to scan for her, or ... or fought more Sentinels. Who knows? I doubt it's important, honestly. 

By the way, JD, did you not do an analysis for Mutopia X? Oddly enough, that's the only HoM series I have in full. Let me know if you need a hand. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Nov 2005 04:07 am    
By JD

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Before leaving Otherworld, Roma gives CB a 48-hour deadline for closing the reality breach. So only two days pass while they're on earth -- we can't insert a two-day gap between the initial warp and the celebration. 
<<<

Yes we can. Actually, there are already about 24 hours between the reality warp and the celebration in my suggested placement, to account for the events of #462. There need to be at most 48 hours between the time CB arrives in HoM and the finale, but it says nothing about the time spent in #462. (Not that I really advocate putting more than 24 hours there). 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
By the way, JD, did you not do an analysis for Mutopia X? Oddly enough, that's the only HoM series I have in full. Let me know if you need a hand. 
<<<

Well, there were several reasons for that : lack of time, no familiarity with the characters of District X, and the fact that Paul O'Brien was already registered for it. If you want to do it, go ahead, it's not in my immediate plans. 

Next in my queue is NXM:AX 16-19, by the way.

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Thread 88

Posted: 08 Nov 2005 04:57 pm    Post subject: [HoM crossover] NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16-19
By JD

NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16-19 
Writers : Nunzio DeFilippis & Christina Weir 
Penciller : Aaron Lopresti 
Published from July to October 2005 


NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp1-9 
New York, daylight 
Appearances : Karma, Cypher, Jubilee, Dust, Wallflawer, Prodigy 4, Kid Omega, Tag, the Stepford Cuckoos (we only see three of them; the two others, including Sophie, are BTS), Mercury 4, "Doyle", Cameron Hodge, Synch, Mirage 2, Surge 4, Quill 3, Wind Dancer, Hellion/Scion 
The New Mutants Leadership Institute's prizegiving ceremony is interrupted by a human terrorist attack ; the terrorists are promptly defeated by the Hellions. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 p10 
Helicarrier, above NYC, dusk 
Appearances : Mirage 2, Mystique, Northstar, Anole, four other Hellions I don't recognize 
Mystique hands a new mission to Dani, who protests that Surge won't want to do it. 
Mystique mentions that she needs other agents to go after Logan, which places this at least on Day Two (at this time in Day One, Mystique is either interrogated by Shaw or incarcerated). 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp11-13 
Helicarrier, above NYC, a bit later 
Appearances : Mirage 2, Wind Dancer, Hellion/Scion, Rockslide (on TV - are wrestling matches live ?), Surge 4, Magik, Quill 3, Synch 
Mirage calls a meeting where she introduces new team member Magik, explains the mission and excludes Noriko from it. Illyana briefly teleports Julian tot he base of a volcano to prove her worth to him. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp14-17 
The New Mutants Leadership Institute, NYC, late evening 
Appearances : Karma, Dr Garrison, all five Stepford Cuckoos, Mercury 4, Kid Omega, Tag, Jubilee, Dusk, Surge 4, Prodigy 4 
Dr Garrison offers counselling after the events of the day. Noriko comes to visit David and asks him to help her get her father out of Japan before the Hellions capture him. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp18-19 
A dark alley, NYC, "later" (still night) 
Appearances : Surge 4, Prodigy 4, Mercury 4, Wallflower 
Noriko and David try to enlist Cessily and Laurie's help, but they refuse. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 p20 
Tokyo, Japan, dawn 
Appearances : Hellion/Scion, Wind Dancer, Quill 3, Magik, Synch 
Behind the scenes : Mirage 2 is seen in this group next issue 
The Hellions intervene as some nameless Human Resistance fighters attack a Project Genesis scientist. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp21-22 
The New Mutants Leadership Institute, NYC, "meanwhile" (it looks like it's still night) 
Appearances : Dr Garrison, Wallflower, Kid Omega 
Laurie tells everything to her father, who asks her to "help" Noriko and David. Quentin sees her leaving her Garrison's office and overhears her thoughts : he learns Noriko's intentions and Laurie's true loyalties. She makes him kill himself. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp1-4 
Tokyo, Japan, early morning (directly continuing from last issue) 
Appearances : Hellion/Scion, Magik, Mirage 2, Wind Dancer, Quill 3, Synch 
The Hellions neutralise the terrorists. Magik sends the survivors to the volcano to make them talk. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp5-10 
The Helicarrier, above NYC, daytime (it's also daytime in Japan) 
Appearances : Surge 4, Elixir, Wither, Cameron Hodge, Mirage 2 
Noriko interrupts Hodge's interrogation, takes out Josh and Kevin, gets some info from Hodge, kills him at his demand, and flees. Josh calls Dani to inform her that everything is going according to plan. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 p11 
Tokyo, Japan, daytime 
Appearances : Hellion/Scion, Magik, Mirage 2 
Behind the scenes : presumably the remaining Hellions (Synch, Wind Dancer and Quill 3) are still around 
Dani, Illyana and Julian go into the volcano to interrogate the terrorists, who talk a bit about Project Genesis. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp12-18 
The New Mutants Leadership Institute, NYC, night 
Appearances : Surge 4, Prodigy 4, Cypher, Wallflower, Dr Garrison, Mercury 4, all five Stepford Cuckoos, Jubilee, Dust, Tag, Karma. 
David and Noriko hack into SHIELD's network and find more info on Project Genesis. They enlist a few more New Mutants. Meanwhile, Brian finds Quentin's corpse ; Dr Garrison lies about Quentin's suicidal urges. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp19-20 
The Imperial Palace, Tokyo, daytime 
Appearances : Sunfire, Mirage 2, Hellion/Scion, Wind Dancer, Quill 3 
Behind the scenes : there are some other Hellions in shadows behind. Quill 3 is recognisable, I suppose Synch and Magik are also here. 
The Hellions have an audience before Sunfire, who is very uncooperative. 
There's a flashback to Surge's youth which is pre-Day One and thus not our concern. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp21-22 
Tokyo, night 
Appearances : Surge 4, Sophie Cuckoo, Jubilee, Dust (off-panel), Prodigy 4, Donald Pierce 
Behind the scenes : Wallflower and Mercury 4 are seen there next issue 
The New Mutants enter into the Human Liberation Front's headquarters but get attacked on sight. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp1-2 
The New Mutants Leadership Institute, NYC, morning 
Appearances : Tag, the four other Cuckoos, Dr Garrison 
Brian sulks, the Cuckoos point to him that Quentin wasn't the suicidal type. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp3-6 
Tokyo, night, directly continued from last issue 
Appearances : Surge 4, Prodigy 4, Jubilee, Dust, Wallflower, Mercury 4, Sophie Cuckoo, Donald Pierce, Dr Garrison 
The New Mutants fight the Human Liberation Front. Laurie discretely goes out into the street to notify her father they have found the Human Liberation Front's headquarters. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 p7 
A food recycling facility, Tokyo, night 
Appearances : Mirage 2, Hellion/Scion, Synch, Magik, Quill 3 
Behind the scenes : Wind Dancer is presumably also here. 
The Hellions are investigating Project Genesis (and not getting any answers) when Dani receives notice of the terrorists' location. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp8-9 
The New Mutants Leadership Institute, NYC, time unknown 
Appearances : Tag, Karma 
Xi'an finds Tag looking into Garrison's file. After reprimanding him, she herself finds that she doesn't have access to his complete file. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp10-18 
Human Liberation Front headquarters, then a Project Genesis facility, Tokyo, night ? (there's a break between pages 11 and 12) 
Appearances : Mercury 4, Surge 4, Prodigy 4, Wallflower, Sophie Cuckoo, Jubilee, Dust, Donald Pierce, Seiji Ashida, Hellion/Scion, Magik, Wind Dancer, Synch, Quill 3, Mirage 2 
Noriko finds her father and they both call a truce between the HLF and the New Mutants to investigate Project Genesis. They're then attacked by the Hellions. After some fighting, Noriko forces Illyana to teleport everybody to a Project Genesis, where they can see it in all its gruesomeness. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp19-20 
The New Mutants Leadership Institute, NYC, time unknown (it looks a bit dark) 
Appearances : Karma, Cypher, Dr Garrison 
Xi'an convinces Doug to hack into SHIELD's database, where they learn a bit about Project Genesis and Garrison's SHIELD undercover agent status. They're surprised by Garrison, who plans to kill them. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp21-22 
Project Genesis facility, night ? 
Appearances : Surge 4, Prodigy 4, Mercury 4, Sophie Cuckoo, Dust, Jubilee, Wallflower, Mirage 2, Hellion/Scion, Magik, Wind Dancer, Quill 3, Synch, Donald Pierce 
Behind the scenes : I can't see Seiji Ashida, but he's presumably there 
Even the Hellions are appaled by Project Genesis, and want to shut it down. Sophie finds out Laurie's true colors. Laurie then makes everybody fight between themselves. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #19 pp1-3 
The New Mutants Leadership Institute, NYC, dawn 
Appearances : Dr Garrison, Karma, Cypher, Tag 
Garrison is "tagged" by Brian and kills himself by jumping through the window. 

NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #19 pp4-23 
Project Genesis facility, night then dawn 
Appearances : Surge 4, Prodigy 4, Mercury 4, Sophie Cuckoo, Dust, Jubilee, Wallflower, Mirage 2, Hellion/Scion, Magik, Wind Dancer, Quill 3, Synch, Donald Pierce, Seiji Ashida, Sunfire 
Big fight orchestrated by Laurie. Everett dies. Cessily "kills" Laurie. Sofia disperses the pheromones and Sophie tries calming everybody, but is shot by Pierce. Max is killed by a guard. Dani kills Pierce. The Hellions, the New Mutants and the HLF finally unite and free the Project Genesis human test subjects. As they try to exit, they are attacked by Sunfire and some SHIELD agents. Magik teleports out the human test subjects. Noriko over-exerts herself and faints in Sunfire's arms. The Hellions, the New Mutants and what's left of the HLF prepare to attack Sunfire, but they're interrupted by the second reality warp. 


Day by day summary (NYC timezone) : 
Day Two : Attack against the New Mutants, the Hellions go after the HLF, David agrees to help Noriko (NXM:AX 16 - 17p4) 
Day Three : The Hellions interrogate the HLF terrorists while Hodge is interrogated in the Helicarrier, the New Mutants decide to go to Japan, meeting between the Hellions and Sunfire (NXM:AX 17pp5-20) 
Day Four : The New Mutants enter the HLF headquarters, Tag looks into Quentin's death (NXM:AX 17p21 - 18p11) 
Day Five : Garrison attacks, the Hellions attack, big fight in Project Genesis facility (NXM:AX 18p12 - 19)

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Thread 89

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 01:15 pm    Post subject: Amazing Fantasy #10/2 - 12/2, (Vampire By Night):
By Kevin W.
Director

It appears Col. Fury is making a bid to take complete control of the Issue Analysis forum. In an effort to stop him, here's my latest review.  

This was the back up feature in Amazing Fantasy #10-12. Each story is only 8 pages long, (it is a back up feature after all). 

Also, this is probably one of the few times where a full moon in the sky is actually of importance to the plot! 

Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #10/2 
Vampire by Night 
Written by Jeff Parker 
Drawn by Federica Manfredi 

Appearances: New Characters: Nina Price, (the Vampire by Night), Louis 

Synopsis: Our story picks up in Naples, Italy. A tabloid reporter by the name of Louis is following Nina Price, (a young celebrity who is noted to be the daughter of a wealthy media mogul and Hollywood producer) on her traveling adventures around Europe. Louis believes she is hiding a secret, (thinking shes a drug addict or having an affair), and follows her around town. Nina checks into a seedy hotel, and emerge at nightfall to walk around the bad side of town. She is attacked by a couple of lowlife hoods, and dragged into an alley, but she turns the tables on them, revealing herself to be a vampire, and killing both of the thugs, and drinking their blood. 

Louis witnesses all of this, and starts taking photos, but Nina overhears him. She grabs him and drags him up to the top of a building, and threatens to toss him off the building, but then she lets him go. He rushes back to his hotel and downloads the photos, thinking he has proof that Nina Price is a vampire, but he quickly discovers that Nina is in none of the photos he shot, (because vampires cant be seen on film, just like they cant be seen in a mirror). 

References: As Nina drags Louis up to the top of the building, she shares with him her history: Her father is a rich media mogul, but her mother is Lissa Price, (originally Lissa Russell), a member of the Russell clan, (as in Jack Russell, the original Werewolf by Night). She narrates, Every new generation of the Russell clan-Russoff, then-produces a werewolf. Upon discovering this, she went in search of a cure, ending up in the Carpathian mountains of Europe, (where the curse was originally handed down from). She attracted the attention of a vampire while she was there, and he sought to turn her into a fellow vampire. She instead became a mixture of vampire and werewolfbasically, it means she becomes a vampire every night, though she can turn herself into a wolf if desiredthough on the nights of a full moon, she becomes a wolf, (and is not in control of herself, and must lock herself up). 

We see in flashback as follows, (and Im going to try and break these down as you would do them, PaulIm use to writing out Page 5, panel 2, of 4 because that way Im sure I wont mess up and be misinterpretedbut Ill give this a try): 

5p2: FB-Nina is at her 18th birthday party at her fathers mansion in Hollywood, CA, when she starts to feel herself changing into a werewolf for the first time. She flees the party. 

5p3: FB-The next morning, Nina wakes up naked in a barn outside of town, with blood all over her. She cant figure out what happened to her. 

Nina narrates that the blackouts came every month. She also says that she spent the next few months consulting doctors and therapists. Finally, she gets the answers shes seeking: 

5p4: FB-In this panel, she gets a letter from her mother, (whom she hasnt seen since she was 12 years old). The letter informs her of the family curse. This is a few months later after the last panel. 

6p2: FB-In this panel, Nina has traveled to the Carpathian mountains. She is in a village, looking for answers to her curse, but everyone avoids her on the streets. 

6p3: FB-In this panel, Nina is attacked by the vampire. 

6p4: FB-We see the vampire is keeping the unconscious Nina in his private quarters. Nina narrates that she didnt rise for three weeks. If she was a normal human, she wouldve risen immediately as a vampire. But the vampire didnt know shes already a werewolf. 

6p5: FB-on the night of a full moon, Nina awakens and transforms into a wolf, attacking and chasing off the vampire. 

Since Nina is only in her early 20s, (she has an image in public as a young spoiled brat living off of her daddys money) all of these flashbacks probably occurred within the last 2 to 4 years, starting on her 18th birthday. 

In the present day scene, theres a half moon, with the dark side on the left side of the moon, (its the readers right hand side). 

Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #11/2 
Interview with the Vampire by Night 
Written by Jeff Parker 
Drawn by Federica Manfredi 

Appearances: Nina Price, (the Vampire by Night), New Characters: Inger Rinefeld. 

Synopsis: 1p1 to 1p4: Nina kills a thug outside of a bar. 

1p5 to pg. 7: The next day. Nina is at a zoo meeting with executives from her fathers studio, (the zoo is implied to be around the Hollywood area). The executives tell Nina that her father has decided that she should hire a personal assistant, to help manage her trips around the world. The job interviews start, and most of the people she interviews just want to work for her so they can submit their movie scripts to her father. 

Eventually, she interviews Inger Rinefeld, a young woman who impresses Nina with her frank attitude. Nina also notices that Inger has experience handling predatory animals, (from working on her familys farm up in Montana). Nina says shell let Inger know if she has the job tomorrow. 

Inger decides to secretly follow Nina around, thinking shes hiding something. As sunset approaches, Nina goes and checks herself into the quarentine section of the zoo, (locking herself behind a metal door). Inger follows a couple of nosy night custodians, who sneak a peak into whats behind the metal door. Nina, (in rampaging wolf mode) breaks out and nearly kills the custodians, (they flee without injury). Inger uses a tranquilizer gun on the wolf and manages to get the wolf back behind the metal door. 

Pg. 8: Cut to dawn, the next morning. The custodians are noted as having quit and fled the job. Nina reverts to normal, and Inger lets her out from behind the metal door. Nina asks if Inger still wants the job. Inger asks if Nina would ever attack her, and Nina says she doesnt think so. Nina hires Inger. 

References: It is unknown how much time has passed since Nina was in Naples last issue. 

Yes, there is a full moon in the sky on the night where Nina becomes a wolf. 

Pg. 8: Nina says she had just fed the night before as a vampire, so thats why she was able to remain somewhat in control as a wolf, (and thus, didnt kill the custodians). The night before is a reference to pg. 1, panels 1-4. 

Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #12/2 
Vampire by Night: In Sheeps Clothing 
Written by Jeff Parker 
Drawn by Federica Manfredi 

Appearances: Nina Price, (the Vampire by Night), Louis, Dum Dum Dugan, Inger Rinefeld, Jack Russell, (the original Werewolf by Night). 

Synopsis: 1p1-1p2: Dum Dum Dugan is talking to Louis the reporter from Issue #10. Dugan gives Louis some money for the tip, (that Nina Price is a vampire) then points a gun at Louis and tells him never to tell this story to anyone ever again. 

The next few panels are a montage of scenes, Ill break them down as follows: 

1p3: Nina is at a restaurant, where she tells the waiter her steak is NOT rare, (as she likes it). 

1p4: Nina as a vampire is killing a criminal, drinking his blood. 

1p5: Nina is walking into a party, butting in front of other people waiting in line, (she says Im sure I have reservations). 

1p6: Nina is now a wolf, attacking a thug. 

1p7: Nina is in her convertible, speeding through traffic without regard to other people on the street. 

1p8: Inger as a vampire, having just finished drinking some blood. 

Inger narrates that she likes Nina better as a vampire/wolf, than as a high society snob. 

2p2: FB-Inger shows Nina a Wanted profile for a criminal, and points to the criminal who is at that moment walking out of a door onto the street, (Inger has come up with the idea of tracking down wanted criminals, that way she makes sure that Nina doesnt kill an innocent person). 

2p3 and 2p4: FB-Nina and Inger are walking around town when Inger notices that they are being followed by a mystery man, (it later turns out this is Jack Russell, Werewolf by Night). 

Thats it for the flashbacks. Now in the present day, Pgs. 2-8 show the following: Its nighttime, out in the woods. Nina and Inger are tracking a dangerous criminal to a shack in the woods. Nina attacks but this turns out to be an ambush. The criminal is really a SHIELD operative, and he and another SHIELD agent attempt to capture Nina. They nearly succeed, when out of nowhere the Werewolf by Night jumps in and attacks the SHIELD agents. Nina and Jack Russell team up and defeat the SHIELD agents, (ripping them up but leaving them barely alive). Back at SHIELD headquarters, Dum Dum Dugan says theyve tried to capture her, now its time to ask nicely if Nina will join SHIELD. As dawn arrives, Nina and Jack transform back into humans, and walk off together, (with Inger following). Nina calling him Uncle Jack and Jack saying he has a lot to tell Nina about her mother 

References: 

Pg. 1: Ingers voice journal narrates the following: VBN entry 615, from outside Toronto. Ive assisted Price for over a month now. So its been over a month since the last issue now. 

Pg. 2: As Inger and Nina are getting ready to attack the SHIELD agent, Inger records in her voice journal, Currently its 4:26 am. So all of pgs. 2-8 occur after midnight. 

Also on Pg. 2: Inger narrates about Jack, (whom she notices has been following Nina around): He could be dangerousmostly appears in L.A., but Im sure I saw him today in downtown Toronto. That would indicate that the flashback on 2p3 and 2p4 occur the day prior to this sequence, (which is after midnight). 

Not having read that much involving the original Werewolf by Night, Im not certain if hes able to induce his transformation every night at will, (as would seem to be the case in this last issue). This certainly wasnt the night of a full moon, (otherwise, Nina wouldve been a wolf). 

In the nighttime sequence in this issue, it appears to be cold outside, judging by Inger and the SHIELD operatives wearing coatsof course, this is supposedly outside of Toronto, (not exactly the warmest of places). 

All of this must occur before the new Nick Furys Howling Commandoes miniseries, because there it appears that SHIELD has succeeded in recruiting Nina. 

Thats it for this review. Next up is my review of the regular story appearing in Amazing Fantasy #7-12.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 05 Nov 2005 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 03:49 pm    
By Enda80

By the way, is there any indication that Vampire By Night is not canonical? 
I ask because Lisa Russell was only 18 when last seen in Iron Man I#209, and while that came out 19 or so publishing years ago for us, it remains scrunched in the sliding timescale. So her having a grown daughter is problematic. 

You know what this reminds me of. this reminds over at DC with their Harlequin character. This character was presented as Two-Face's daughter with his spouse Gilda, in fact even meeting Two-Face. Or closer to home, that whole thing with Quentin Quire from January 31, 2003. Posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2003 at 04:01:01: 

For those of you interested in the passing of Marvel 
Time there may be a clue in New X-Men #134.Quentin Quire (later Kid Omega) claims that the newspaper article he holds in his hands "Mutants: Are they for Real?" was published on the day of his own birth.That article is based on the statements of Dr.Bolivar Trask and was published 
during the events of Uncany X-Men #14, the first appearance of the 
Sentinels. 

However, it is much harder to write off Quire's statement than this whole Lisa Russell problem.

Last edited by Enda80 on 05 Nov 2005 05:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 03:55 pm
By Somebody

Enda, you're going off on a tangent again....

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Posted: 06 Nov 2005 12:41 am    
By Col_Fury

Heh. Hehh hehh.... uh, I didn't quite realize just how many analyses I've done lately...  

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Not having read that much involving the original Werewolf by Night, Im not certain if hes able to induce his transformation every night at will, (as would seem to be the case in this last issue). This certainly wasnt the night of a full moon, (otherwise, Nina wouldve been a wolf).  
<<<

When he first appeared he could only change on full moons. Later, he was shown to have the ability to change whenever he wanted. I'm not sure if his 'gaining control' was ever addressed in a story, it almost seemed that his abilities were made to fit whatever story he was appearing in at the time. Hope that helps!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 06 Nov 2005 06:37 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, is there any indication that Vampire By Night is not canonical? 
<<<

It's indisputably canon. She has an entry in the HANDBOOK and she's a title character in NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 05:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2003 at 04:01:01: 

For those of you interested in the passing of Marvel Time there may be a clue in New X-Men #134.Quentin Quire (later Kid Omega) claims that the newspaper article he holds in his hands "Mutants: Are they for Real?" was published on the day of his own birth.That article is based on the statements of Dr.Bolivar Trask and was published during the events of Uncany X-Men #14, the first appearance of the 
Sentinels. 

it is much harder to write off Quire's statement than this whole Lisa Russell problem. 
<<<

Why do you find it hard to believe that 14-16 years have passed between UX #14 and X #134? Other than "high-school-age", we don't know how old Quentin is. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Nov 2005 08:34 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Lisa Russell was only 18 when last seen in Iron Man I#209, and while that came out 19 or so publishing years ago for us, it remains scrunched in the sliding timescale. So her having a grown daughter is problematic.. 
<<<

There's two options here, as I see it: either the information that Nina relates about her mother is wrong (giving more meaning to Jack's comment at the end of AAF 12/2), or Lissa was almost two decades older than stated in her original appearances. In the latter case, I suppose Lissa's werewolf bloodline keeps her looking younger than she actually is, but there's still no explanation for how her lycanthropy didn't emerge until her "18th birthday" in WBN 28. Since Jack turned 18 in his first appearance (M/SPOT 2), Lissa is most likely in her early thirties, unless she had Nina in her teens - but if she was married when Nina was born, that's not possible. 

Lissa's disappearance from her daughter's life "six years ago" would probably have to occur before her very first appearance, also in M/SPOT 2. Her travels with her brother could explain why she disappeared. If her "disappearance" coincided with a divorce from Mr. Price, it would also explain why she reverted back to her maiden name after leaving him. 

-Sean

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Thread 90

Posted: 11 Nov 2005 10:02 pm    Post subject: FF Wedding Special
By SKleefeld
Director

The basic premise of the FF Wedding Special is that, on the occassion of Reed and Sue's 40th wedding anniversary, they bring together a dozen or two sets of themselves from various points of time to celebrate. What this will do, from a chronological perspective, is that Reed and Sue experience the same event multiple times, consequently the same page numbers will appear in their chronologies several times. 

Pages 1-3 
Reed and Sue talk before they board the Pocket Rocket for their fateful flight. This clearly occurs between FF 1 pg 9 panel 4 and FF3 11 pg 1 panel 1. Appearances by Reed, Sue, Ben and Johnny. 

Pages 4-9 
Flashforward to something more contemporary. Reed and Sue think they invite each other for a night out. They drop off the kids with the Inhumans and head over to the Tavern on the Green. They're greeted by an unassuming host and are ushered into a ballroom. Appearances by Reed, Sue, Johnny, Ben, Valeria Richards, Franklin Richards, Black Bolt, Medusa, and a robot called Recorder in the guise of the host. There are no real chronological clues, other than maybe Sue's haircut: rather short and spikey. 

Pages 10-11 
This is our (and the current Reed and Sue's) introduction to the party. We see Reeds and Susans from a number of time periods. Some are dressed in outfits we've never seen before and are presumably from sometime in the future. Many are in relatively generic FF uniforms and could be from anywhen. One couple that is noteworthy, though, evidently came from immediately after their appearance in pages 1-3. Another thing to note is one Susan claims to have "just filed for divorce." That occured between FF 146 and 147, but it must be before Namor steals her away in the flashback in 147 because she's effectively out of action until the end of 149 where she and Reed have a complete reconciliation. 

Page 12 - Page 13 panel 1 
This is a flashback to shortly after FF@ 1. Sue is watching a news broadcast of the event, and Ben comforts her. We know the Namor reference is to FF@ 1 because the news broadcast shows a fight scene from that story. Appearances by Sue and Ben. 

Page 12 panels 2-3 
Back at the party. It's unclear which Susans are shown, but one is pregnant and the one Reed shown notes it's their first child. This must be shortly before FF 72. Prior to that, during Sue's pregnancy, she wears a modified FF uniform with a skirt. Plus, she's not showing. Starting with FF 72, she no longer wears a uniform at all and we see her in either really loose maternity dresses or just from the waist up. 

Page 13 panel 4 - Page 14 panel 1 
Another flashback to right after FF@ 1. Johnny and Reed talk while they work on a Fantasticar. Appearances by Reed and Johnny. 

Page 14 panel 2 - Page 17 
Back at the party. More conversation and a Reed and Sue show up, evidently right from their wedding. For them, this party would occur right after FF@ 3. Curiously, Reed is in a tux (which he didn't wear during the actual wedding ceremony) but he does note that he was about to carry Sue "across the threshold" so presumably a little time has passed since the actual wedding. We also see a very young Reed in an MIT shirt with young Susan on his arm. Despite the MIT shirt, it must be after Reed graduated from there since he had already finished with that degree when he met Sue for the first time at ESU. This is more likely a Reed and Sue from her college days at Columbia. Since they seem to be in love with one another, this would most likely occur after the flashback in WI 42. 

Pages 18-19 
This is double-page spread representing the original wedding itself. Nothing new to add to the MCP. 

Page 20 panels 1-2 
Back at the party. The Reed and Sue who just showed up after the wedding are shown, as is the Susan from pages 1-3. The remaining characters can't be determined where they're from. 

Page 20 panel 3 - Page 22 
Flashback to Reed and Sue's honeymoon on the moon. This would occur after the post-wedding Reed and Sue's appearance at the party. Reed is shown in his tux here again, so there's some consistency with their first appearance in this issue. Appearances by Reed, Sue and Uatu. 

Page 23 panels 1-3 
Back at the party. The eldest Reed and Sue open a set of doors that are clearly the basis for some kind of portal. 

Page 23 panel 4 
The various Reeds and Susans steps through the portal into the courtyard where Reed originally proposed to Sue. 

Page 24 panels 1-3 
The various Reed and Susans turn invisible as that timeline's Reed and Sue round a corner and re-enact the original proposal scene from FF 35. Technically, that makes Reed and Susan repeatedly BTS during FF 35, but since there's no impact on the original story, that issue would not need to be repeated throughout the chronologies. 

Page 24 panel 4 - Page 26 panel 1 
We see the actual proposal itself and Reed gives Susan his grandmother's engagement ring. Many of the Reed and Susans from the party are visable to the reader, but some are defintely not seen and would have to be considered BTS. That timeline's Reed and Sue run off to tell Ben and Johnny about their engagement. 

Page 26 panel 2 - Page 27 
The Reeds and Susans remain in that timeline and share a toast. The eldest Reed and Sue send everyone back to their appropriate timelines with no memory of the party. 

Page 28 
The "current" Reed and Sue return to their timeline and start walking home. A kid offers to take their picture for five bucks. 

Pages 29-30 
The eldest Reed and Sue look at the picture as they pack for a new adventure. The recorder hands over a device that recorded the whole party holographically, and Reed and Sue take off for somewhere "no one has ever seen before!" 

The rest of the issue is a reprint of FF@ 3. 

Okay, now here's how the chronologies fall out. As I said, many of the Reeds and Susans can fall into generic places anywhere in their respective timelines, based on their costumes. And a number of them are also clearly supposed to be from the future which would, for our purposes at least, be considered a possible alternative future with no impact on the MCP. Now, there is an indication that many of the Reed and Susans are pulled from relatively significant points in their lives, so I might try making some suggestions after some more research. but here's the stuff I can place definitively*... 

M/LG 11 
WI 42 
FFWS pg 9 panel 3 - pg 11 (Sue: BTS) 
FFWS pg 14 panel 2 - pg 17 
FFWS pg 23 - 27 (Reed: BTS) 
FF 11/2 FB (Reed only) 
... 
FF 1 pg 9 panels 1-4 
FFWS pg 1-3 
FFWS pg 9 panel 3 - pg 11 
FFWS pg 14 panel 2 - pg 17 
FFWS pg 20 panels 1-2 (Reed: BTS) 
FFWS pg 23-27 
FF3 11 pg 1 
FF 1 pg 9 panel 5 
... 
FF@ 1 
FFWS pg 12 - 13 panel 1 FB (Sue and Ben only) 
FFWS pg 13 panel 4 - pg 14 panel 1 FB (Johnny and Reed only) 
A 1 
FF 19 
... 
FF 35 
FFWS pg 24 p 4 - pg 26 p 1 
SMHT 1 
ST 130 
FF 36 
... 
FF@ 3 
FFWS pg 16-17 
FWS pg 20 panels 1-2 
FFWS pg 23-27 BTS 
FFWS pg 20 panel 3 - pg 22 FB 
***MARVELS 2*** (Though listed in the MCP, the FF do not appear in MARVELS 2 after their wedding. This listing should be deleted.) 
A 144 
... 
FF 71 
FFWS pg 9 panel 3 - pg 11 
FFWS pg 13 panels 2-3 
FFWS pg 14 panel 2 - pg 17 
FFWS pg 23 - 27 
FF 72 
... 
FF 146 
FFWS pg 9 panel 3 - pg 11 
FFWS pg 13 panels 2-3 (Reed: BTS) 
FFWS pg 14 panel 2 - pg 17 
FFWS pg 23-27 BTS 
FF 147 FB (Sue only) 
FF 147 
... 
(sometime more or less current) 
FFWS pg 4-11 
FFWS pg 13 panels 2-3 (Reed: BTS) 
FFWS pg 14 panel 2 - pg 17 
FFWS pg 23-28 
... 


* Chronology listings here are for both Reed and Sue unless otherwise noted.

Last edited by SKleefeld on 13 Nov 2005 03:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 09:56 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I thought I'd tackle some of the various Reeds and Susans that appear in the book and see if I can't guestimate some placements for them. The placements I'm suggesting here are based on the premise that they largely come from significant points in their lives. 

Current Reed and Sue 
Well, the book focuses a lot on these two. Obviously, they're introduced as the tie to contemporary books and show up frequently throughout the party. You can tell them apart by the relief "4" symbol and the seams running from their underarms up to their collars. 

Classic Reed and Sue 
Throughout the book, we see several Reeds and Susans that are wearing a classic Kirby uniform. There are actually a couple of nuanced variations on it, but the hairstyles and comments are so imprecise on many of them that I'm not going to note these individually here. It's difficult to tell one from another, so I'm going to just leave these to the dialog notes I mentioned in the previous post. 

Future Reed #1 
On the far right of page 9 panel 3, we have an older Reed in a costume I've never seen before. His hair is all white, and he seems to be drawn with more facial wrinkles, both of which suggest he's from sometime in the future. His only other appearance in the book is page 10 panel 1, and it's curious to note he has no Susan equivalent that we see. 

Ultimate Reed and Sue 
We see a young Reed and Sue in their Ultimate uniforms. Considering that two different Reeds note that they all are pulled from points in their lives, and not from alternate dimensions, these two confuse me a bit. But they do show up repeatedly throughout the book, so I have to then assume that it's not a simple art error. Perhaps "our" Reed had simply not yet analyzed these two and assumed that, since most of the party was pulled from his timeline, they all were. I would suggest that this occurs after their first major battle in uniform, thus putting this after Ultimate FF #12. 

Unshaven Reed 
Page 9 panel 3: Ultimate Reed seems to be talking to a Reed who has a very distinct five o'clock shadow. This is his only appearance in the book. There are a number of ocassions where Reed has forgotten to shave, but I'd tag this to the original Galactus trilogy (being a significant even and all) between FF 48 and 49. Presumably, one of the Susans at the event is from the same period. 

Pre-Flight Reed and Sue 
We repeatedly see Reed and Sue in flight suits that are drawn exactly like the ones shown on pages 1-3. Clearly, the intent is that they've been pulled from just before the space flight. 

Peek-a-Boo Sue 
If you can't spot which panels she's in, I'd be surprised. Susan's "smut" uniform was worn for a relatively short time: from FF 371 until 388. Given that she's shown very distinctly without a Reed throughout the book, this most likely occurs after he "dies" in FF 381. Given that storyline, though, the earliest we can place this would be just before FF 384. 

Black and White Reed and Sue 
There are several appearances by a Reed and Sue in uniforms that are wholly black and white. This seems to point to the John Byrne style of drawing the uniform that he began in FF 256. As soon as Jerry Ordway took over in 294, though, the uniforms became more of a dark blue instead of black. Now, Byrne never drew Susan with this style of haircut; however, there are several instances throughout the book of her hairstyle being decidedly wrong for the time period, so I'm going to have to chalk that up to an art error. Again, going with the significant event motif, I'd place after the loss of their second child. Sue remained in the hospital for a couple of issues after that, so I'd place these two just before FF 269. 

Future Reed #2 
This is the Reed with the eyepatch, goatee and hyperglove. The current Reed notes that he hasn't developed the hyperglove yet, so this has to occur in either the future or an alternate dimension. It is interesting to note that this Reed has no Susan counterpart. 

Pregnant Sue and Reed 
One Susan is clearly pregnant with Franklin. As noted previously, this has to after FF 71 since Sue is not showing before then. From FF 72 onwards, she's completely out of uniform and plays up the frail, pregnant female type. This Susan isn't showing that much yet, so I think we can justify placing this towards the front end of her last trimester. 

College Reed and Sue 
There's a Reed runnning around in an MIT shirt with a t-shirt 'n' jeans Susan. Clearly goes back to their college days but, again, as noted earlier, this is likely during Susan's college days at Columbia, showin in WI 42. 

Not-quite-black uniform Reed 
Page 14 panel 3, we see a Reed in a dark blue and white uniform. This does, to me, have a different feel than the John Byrne black and white one, so should be after that. I don't see a Susan counterpart anywhere. Not much in the way of significant events happened in these uniforms, so my only guess is sometime around Johnny and Alicia's wedding in FF 300. 

Sideburn Uniform Reed and Sue 
There's a Reed and Sue that have this huge white collar area and a "4" on the front and back of the uniform. Their uniforms also have this sideburn type effect that runs up the sides of their heads, leaving their faces and hair exposed. I don't recall ever having seen them before, so I have to guess they're from the future. 

Leather Jacket Reed and Sue 
There's a Reed and Sue wearing "cool" leather jackets. At first glance, one would presume this is from sometime during the 1990s when everyone wore leather jackets. On page 26, though, we see that their knees and feet have a kind of armor or padding on them. Also, Reed never actually wore a full jacket, just a utility type vest. My initial suggestion would be that these are a future Reed and Sue, but if you all want to chalk this up to an art error, it would have to be placed just before FF 371. That's when Sue goes to the peek-a-boo uniform AND the leather jacket. We might be able to assume the jackets came first by just a bit. 

40th Anniversary Reed and Sue 
The hosts of the pary in lab coats and black turtlenecks. They're noted as coming from Reed and Sue's 40th wedding anniversary, placing Reed easily in his 70s. 

Goggle Reed and Sue 
There's a Reed and Sue wearing white uniforms with glowing blue goggles. These are new and presuambly from the future. 

Heroes Return Sue 
Page 15 panel 3: there's a Susan in the background with a collar that comes down into the chest/4 area. The only time this happened was just after FF launched volume 3. We don't see a Reed counterpart. 

Wedding Reed and Sue 
Just after FF@ 3, as noted above. 

Elasti-Sue and Visor Reed 
There's a Susan who is shown stretching repeatedly throughout the issue with a Reed who's wearing a clear visor. The only two instances where Sue has been shown to do this before have been WI 6 and WI2 11. These must either be future or alternate reality Susans and, therefore, Reeds. This is also the Susan who's shown with lots of pouches in the foreground of page 17 panel 4. 

And that about covers everyone, I think. It's interesting to note that we don't see any Jim Lee or Carlos Pacheco costumes. There's also no reference to Sue with Johnny's powers, or any of the specific alternate Reed and Susans besides the Ultimate versions.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 06:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean, do you suppose this story would best be set on the anniversary of Reed's and Sue's wedding or on the anniversary of Reed's proposal, which appears to have greater significance in this tale? If the former (a June placement), I'd place it immediately after FOUR 21 as a party to make up for the fact that Reed and Sue did not spend their actual anniversary together in that issue. The latter (a May placement) might work out better given that the placement would allow Sue's short, spiky haircut to grow out for other appearances.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Nov 2005 10:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The "current" Reed and Sue don't seem to attach any significance to the day -- I doubt it's set on the anniversary of anything specific. In fact, if memory serves, at the end of the issue Future Reed and Sue comment how that period (the current period) was one of relative calm and normalcy for them, and that's why they chose the current Reed and Sue to attend the party. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:24 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The inclusion of Ultimate Reed and Sue, I think, has to be disregarded for our purposes. They're from a completely separate universe, and just plain shouldn't be there. The whole plot hinges on the fact that these are the same characters from different timelines. Possibly they represent some alternate future where Reed and Sue get briefly regressed in age, but otherwise I'd treat it as just an easter egg.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 07:37 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Sean, do you suppose this story would best be set on the anniversary of Reed's and Sue's wedding or on the anniversary of Reed's proposal, which appears to have greater significance in this tale? If the former (a June placement), I'd place it immediately after FOUR 21 as a party to make up for the fact that Reed and Sue did not spend their actual anniversary together in that issue. The latter (a May placement) might work out better given that the placement would allow Sue's short, spiky haircut to grow out for other appearances. 
<<<

There's a line specifically in the book where the current Reed notes how nothing special is going on in their lives at that time. The inference (but not a specific comment) is that that's the reason why they were chosen to be at the party.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 10:56 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Just a quick post to note that the FF Wedding Special, for current continuity, seems to drop in absurdly well right after FF 532.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 11:18 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The inclusion of Ultimate Reed and Sue, I think, has to be disregarded for our purposes. They're from a completely separate universe, and just plain shouldn't be there. The whole plot hinges on the fact that these are the same characters from different timelines. Possibly they represent some alternate future where Reed and Sue get briefly regressed in age, but otherwise I'd treat it as just an easter egg. 
<<<

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss these characters, (as they apparently appear more than once in the comic, and thus, are not an art error of some sort). Perhaps these are indeed the Ultimate characters, who managed to cross the dimensional barrier into Earth 616 at some point in the future, (at which point, they encountered 'regular' Reed and Sue). Thus, that would be the reason why '40th anniversary' Reed and Sue would pluck them from the timeline-they represent a milestone in their lives: encountering a variant version of themselves from another dimension... 

If that's the case, would "Ultimate" Reed and Sue be worthy of a regular MCP listing, (for this one event only?)...I ask since the Ultimate and regular Marvel universes will never meet up, if Joe Quesada is to be believed...?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 11:28 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
If that's the case, would "Ultimate" Reed and Sue be worthy of a regular MCP listing, (for this one event only?)...I ask since the Ultimate and regular Marvel universes will never meet up, if Joe Quesada is to be believed...? 
<<<

Well, yes and no. Ultimate Reed and Sue do qualify for their own listings (on the Ultimate page), but if this is indeed a future version, this particular appearance wouldn't be listed. 


watching: larry king

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 02:41 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Well, yes and no. Ultimate Reed and Sue do qualify for their own listings (on the Ultimate page), but if this is indeed a future version, this particular appearance wouldn't be listed. 
<<<

Makes sense...but then, it would probably only be a "future version" for the regular Marvel universe. In the Ultimate universe, Sean has suggested a spot for placement: 


Quote: 
>>>
I would suggest that this occurs after their first major battle in uniform, thus putting this after Ultimate FF #12.  
<<<

Would this be a rare example of a "regular" Marvel universe comic getting added to an Ultimate character's MCP listing? Admitedly, it might take a little bit more of a confirmation than what we are shown here...but since it certainly looks like Ultimate Reed and Sue, then I don't see how we can dismiss their appearance outright...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 03:35 am    
By JD

Well, since the storyline in UFF #21-23 entirely relies on Ultimate Reed discovering by chance the FF of another universe being a new thing for him, leading him to horribly screw up because of his carelessness, I don't see how it could happen before that. And after that, he'll be very cautious about meeting other-dimensionnal FF, so I don't see it happening anytime soon. 

I don't have UFF #20-21 on hand, but I seem to recall that Zombie-Reed did a very good impersonnation of 616-Reed. Surely, if Ultimate Reed had already met 616-Reed and travelled with him before that, he would have noted it ? I think I recall UFF #21 making a big deal about this being his first travel to another universe having a Reed... 
Note that this storyline also has Ultimate Sue being completely shocked by the revelation of Ultimate Reed having been in contact with another Reed. 

So, my conclusion is that the UFF appearances in FF:Wedding Special cannot be before UFF #23, and are very unlikely to be soon after that. It may be somewhere in the future for that title. 

By the way, haven't the 616-FF been shown in UFF costumes in some of their appearances ? I think especially of the FF & New Avengers thingie, but I can't remember whether this was decided canon or not. If we have at least one canon appearance of the 616-FF wearing that, then it is probably them at one such time in FF:Wedding Special.

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 11:09 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
Well, since the storyline in UFF #21-23 entirely relies on Ultimate Reed discovering by chance the FF of another universe being a new thing for him, leading him to horribly screw up because of his carelessness, I don't see how it could happen before that. And after that, he'll be very cautious about meeting other-dimensionnal FF, so I don't see it happening anytime soon. 
<<<

It was very clearly stated (and shown) in the Wedding Special that none of the guests would remember anything about the event, so there would be zero chance of inadvertently messing up the timestream. The Ultimate Reed and Sue could, therefore, appear here well before UFF 21 as neither of them would have any memory of travelling to an alternate (for them) universe.

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 11:54 am    
By Somebody

I just assumed it was a (clearly, temporarily) deaged future616 Reed & Sue - face it, we've got a Reed sans arm and eye (& Sue?) who notes that he'll obviously get them back in the future, in a nod to comic book reset-buttonism. That might even be the reason they were brought there (the specific event thing) 

Whatever way you rationalise it though, the specific costume for them is just an in-joke.

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Thread 91

Posted: 09 Nov 2005 10:13 pm    Post subject: Giant-Size X-Men 3 & 4
By Col_Fury

Both of these stories are continuity implants. Theyre not FlashBacks; they take place in the past, much like the old Classic X-Men backup stories. 

Giant-Size X-Men 3 
Teamwork 
W: Joss Whedon 
D: Neal Adams! 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Nightcrawler(Kurt Wagner), Sunfire(Shiro Yashida), Colossus(Peter Rasputin), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Thunderbird(John Proudstar), Banshee(Sean Cassidy), Charles Xavier-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: Wolverine has locked himself in the Danger Room with Kurt, Shiro, Peter, Ororo, & John to teach them a lesson in teamwork. 
Pg2: Peter & Ororo are excited to be here, speaking English. Shiro becomes embarrassed when he realizes that only he & Kurt are wearing costumes, everyone else is in casual wear. Peter seems excited at the prospect of getting a uniform. 
Pg3: Wolverine compares this new team of X-Men to the Avengers & FF, and points out that these X-Men arent a team yet. Nightcrawler observes that Banshee is absent, Wolverine rebuts with Sean & Xavier are friends, and that Sean isnt involved in this lesson. He unsheathes his claws and starts a fight. 
Pg4: Peter armors up and tries to protect Ororo, who doesnt appreciate it. Shiro shoots flame at Wolverine. 
Pg5: Peter blocks Wolverine from Shiros attack while Ororo conjures the elements, and then starts to suffer from claustrophobia. 
Pg6: Wolverine retracts his claws so as to not attract lightning, John attacks him from behind. Confused, Kurt teleports 
Pg7:  to subdue Ororo. Wolverine knocks John into Peter, and then Sean arrives stopping everyone with his sonic scream. He says that Xavier heard then from across town and sent him over. 
Pg8: Wolverine reveals that this was his idea, and not Professor Xs like Kurt & John had thought. He did it to discover everyones strengths and weaknesses. On his way out he asks if anyone wants some beer. 

References: 
Wolverine says Its your first day as X-Men people 

Peter says: An hour ago I spoke not a word of English. Now I understand every word! 

Peter, Ororo, & John do not have costumes yet. 

No equipment is used in the Danger Room, preserving Thunderbirds surprise in X-Men 94. 

Wolverine sheathes his claws before Banshee arrives, preserving his surprise at them in X-Men 98. 

Professor X sent Banshee over but does not appear here. Theres no telepathic communication, just Sean mentioning it. Therefore, Charlie gets a BTS. 

This is obviously meant to fit between chapters 1 & 2 of Giant-Size X-Men 1, after Xavier has gathered the new team members & before they get uniforms. Or more specifically, between pages 12 & 13, which it does, very nicely. 

Giant-Size X-Men 4 
Finding Home! 
W: Chris Claremont 
D: Rick Leonardi 

Appearances: 
Cyclops(Scott Summers), Wolverine(Logan), Nightcrawler(Kurt Wagner), Colossus(Peter Rasputin), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Thunderbird(John Proudstar), Banshee(Sean Cassidy), Charles Xavier, Marvel Girl(Jean Grey). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-4: Cyclops is training the new X-Men in the Danger Room. Storm & Thunderbird spar while Wolverine & Nightcrawler wager in the background. Thunderbird takes it too far and Wolverine intercedes, upsetting Cyclops. 
Pg5: Later that night, Logan & Charles discuss the new team members. 
Pg6: Thunderbird eavesdrops on Logan & Charles, then on Scott talking with Jean telepathically. 
Pg7-9: Thunderbird then sneaks into Logans room and snoops around, finding a wartime photograph of Logan, Charles, and someone else.(possibly Carmen Pryde?) This reminds him of his uncle Jack. He leaves and goes to Ororos room to apologize, but shes not there. Professor X contacts him telepathically and they chat. Later, Storm enters her room and finds a cactus with a note left by Thunderbird. 

References: 
Wolverine & Nightcrawler are friendly with each other and make a bet with the usual stakes, a case of beer. Wolverine wins and says that Nightcrawler owes him another case, so theyve made this bet before whether it was on panel or not is probably irrelevant. 

All in one day, afternoon into night. 

X-men 94 pg7 is a montage of Cyclops training the new team in the Danger Room, which spans weeks. This story fits nicely as one day in that span, if only because Thunderbird dies soon after. 

Some quick chronology placement examples before I try to sort out some of the Classic X-Men & various FlashBack page/panel ranges. At the moment, Im not entirely sure which backup & FlashBack stories cover what, and Classic X-Men 1s interweaving of Giant-Size X-men 1 looks to be fun not to mention all the new information snuck into these early issues with new pages inserted by Classic X-Men. 

Colossus II/Peter Rasputin 
 
GSX 1 -pg12 
*GSX 3 
GSX pg13- 
 

Cyclops II/Scott Summers 
 
UX 94 -pg7 
CX pg7-pg8 
*GSX 4 
CX pg10 
UX 94 pg8- 
 

Of course, therere other new pages in Classic X-Men 2, one involves Moira MacTaggert, and the other involves Storm & Thunderbird. 

Before I really get into this, is anyone working on Classic X-Men page/panel ranges already? I ask because Daredevil has some in his chronology,(between DD: Yellow & DD 1) and I remember a discussion about assigning certain books to people. If someone already has dibs on Classic X-Men, I think the information here will be enough for them to place these stories, and I dont want to step on anybodys toes. If not, Im game. I own all the Classic X-Men issues, and all the originals.(well, after GSX 1 & UX 94. I dont have much pre- UX 64)
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 12:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So, GSXM #4 and Logan's photograph confirm the flashbacks in EXCAL3 #14 showing that Prof. X, Logan and Carmen Pryde served in the war together... 

I guess Prof. X erased Carmen's memory of him back in the days when he was happily erasing the memories of anyone who grew up with any of the original X-Men ... and I guess Logan's memory of Prof. X was scrambled and lost in his Weapon X days. 

What a weird decision for a continuity implant. I guess it should go before Logan's Weapon X / Team X days, huh? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 06:55 pm    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
I guess it should go before Logan's Weapon X / Team X days, huh?  

I would say so. I wonder if this will be addressed in the upcoming 'Wolverine remembers his past' arc in W3 36-40?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 92

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 04:21 pm    Post subject: Call for analyses -- completed stories
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm still trying to fill in the updated calendar before House of M and Secret War conclude and settle a few major chronological issues. 

There are a number of completed stories that I haven't collected and that haven't been written up here in the analysis forum. Do we have takers for the stories that do not have volunteers already assigned to them? 

Amazing Fantasy v3 #13-14 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Redemption #1-6 (Col_Fury) 
Daredevil vs. Punisher #1-6 (Kevin) 
District X #7-12 (Col_Fury) 
Gambit v4 #1-6 (Jeph) 
Gambit v4 #7-9 (Jeph) 
Guardians #6 
Hulk: Destruction #1-4 (shandrakor) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #87 (Kevin) 
Livewires #1-6 (Somebody) 
Machine Teen #1-5 (shandrakor) 
Mutopia X #1-5 (Paul O.) 
Nightcrawler v3 #1-6 (Jeph) 
Nightcrawler v3 #7-11 (Jeph) 
NYX #5-7 (Paul O.) 
Ororo: Before the Storm #1-4 (Paul O.) 
Power Pack v2 #1-4 
Runaways v2 #1-6 (Jeph) 
Runaways v2 #7-8 
Shang-Chi: Master of Kung Fu v2 #3-5 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 
X-23 #1-6 (Jeph) 

Again, if I've overlooked a submitted analysis or misassigned someone, please let me know. Thanks to all our analysts!
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 01 Dec 2005 09:24 pm; edited 23 times in total

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 05:39 pm    
By shandrakor

Go ahead and give me Machine Teen. 

Unless I wasn't paying attention, Hulk: Destruction isn't over until later this month. So, wrong list, but still on my "to do" plate. 

Don't I remember somebody mentioning that Shanna is non-cannon, and is a clone of some sort named after the comic book character?

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 07:08 pm    
By Somebody

I'd already volunteered to take Livewires on another one of these threads after John said he'd stopped getting it. 

I doubt it hugely impacts on your calendar though - it's pretty standalone. There's a several references to various MU stuff - a reference to the original Human Torch, a near-as-dammit unplaceable flashback with Nick Fury watching an LMD of himself getting killed by HYDRA sentient killer beer, a "photo" of the Mannites, a salvaged-and-rebuilt Helicarrier (one of six or seven they say have been destroyed in the past) and a Sentinel building program the leads send back to square one. No placement clues on when it takes place relative to the MU tho, and no present-day appearances by any non-original characters.

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:08 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm impressed, Paul, that you managed to keep track of all of these titles that have come out in the last few months, (along with what's coming out soon)! 

I'm just going to stick with what's on my plate for now...my review for Punisher #19-24 is coming soon, and after that, I'll tackle Amazing Fantasy #7-12.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Darien and Somebody. I've edited the post. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:24 pm    
By Col_Fury

I've come this far, I might as well grab Black Panther v4 #7... 

I can also analyze Shanna the She-Devil 1-7. Look for them in between Marvel Comics Presents posts.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 04:35 am    
By JLH

"Strange" is beyond non-canon, so if you still need it, I'd say take my name off the list, please. 

"Toxin" is completed, and I'll be doing that within this week or next.

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 04:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It certainly appears that the intended revision of Dr Strange's origin, and the changing of his costume, which STRANGE was supposed to effect has completely failed to take hold. Probably safe, at this stage, to dismiss it as a failed retcon a la CHILDREN OF THE ATOM and ignore it for continuity purposes. 

TOXIN, bless its little cotton socks, is a rare example of these days a storyline with plenty of convenient break points which should make it extremely easy to chronologise.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Oct 2005 06:10 am  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The post is updated again, thanks to Col_Fury and JLH. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 07:31 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just updated the list, eliminating analyzed stories and adding newly completed stories.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 07:56 am    
By Somebody

Sorry about Livewires taking so long - for a self-contained series it's hell to analyse with the sheer number of flashbacks, including a couple in #6 I'm not sure how to treat (technically, they flash back to scenes we've already seen, but a couple of them were originally off-panel dialogue and we're being shown what they were saying. And another one has expressions which fit between two panels).

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 08:21 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody, I don't know the exact references you're dealing with, but when you list every scene chronologically you may want to list nearly identical panels (original and flashbacks w/added info) side by side with the tilde symbol (~) between them. For flashback panels that occur between previously published panels, just insert them where necessary in the chronological list.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 11:18 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Uh...clarification. Flashbacks that repeat nearly identical panels shouldn't use the ~ ; they should just be ignored, in favor of the original panel. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 03:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, that's the rule in the MCP. But for the purposes of trying to wrangle the details of what's in each panel, I'd prefer to know what's repeating what at this point, knowing that there is additional information we need to include in FBs. Let's sort things out after all the data is out there.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 10:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just updated the list again, removing recently submitted analyses. It looks like Col_Fury stepped up to claim some unassigned stories, and JD saved Jeph, Kevin, and shandrakor some trouble. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 10:44 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Rarrrr. Find me some damned free time, Paul. I beg you. 

By the way, that Marvel Milestones Captain Britain story is non-canon -- the entire UK "Spectacular Spider-Man" series is set in the 90s Spidey cartoon's universe. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 11:38 pm    
By Col_Fury

I can grab Giant-Size X-Men 3 & 4. If we're lucky I'll have them finished sometime this week.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 08 Nov 2005 07:04 am    
By jephyork
Director

Jeph York said: 
>>>
By the way, that Marvel Milestones Captain Britain story is non-canon -- the entire UK "Spectacular Spider-Man" series is set in the 90s Spidey cartoon's universe.  
<<<

Oh, okay. I'll scratch it from the list. 


Col_Fury said: 
>>>
I can grab Giant-Size X-Men 3 & 4. If we're lucky I'll have them finished sometime this week. 
<<<

Great. Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 02:17 am    
By Col_Fury

Iron Man: HoM 1-3 & Monsters on the Prowl are already submitted, so you can probably scratch those off your list. 

Also, if PopularLoser doesn't object, I can do District X 7-12 & Punisher: Red Xmas. I don't want to waste PopularLoser's time if he's already done most of the legwork, but if not, I'm game. 

Having said that, if I do, I may not get the chance to do them until the first week of December.  The Friday after Thanksgiving is one of the craziest days of the year for my store, & we're getting ready for it this week & next. Oddly enough, Punisher: Red Xmas fits the theme...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 07:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Col_Fury. I've scratched Iron Man: House of M and Monsters on the Prowl off the list, but I've added Daredevil vs. Punisher and Mutopia X, both of which just finished their runs. 

If PopularLoser agrees to have you cover District X and/or Red XMas, or if we don't hear from him and he doesn't get his submissions in by the end of the month, then go for it, Col_Fury.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Nov 2005 03:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just updated the list again, removing recent contributions by Kevin and John. Thanks for the analyses, guys. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Nov 2005 06:45 pm    
By PopularLoser

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Iron Man: HoM 1-3 & Monsters on the Prowl are already submitted, so you can probably scratch those off your list. 

Also, if PopularLoser doesn't object, I can do District X 7-12 & Punisher: Red Xmas. I don't want to waste PopularLoser's time if he's already done most of the legwork, but if not, I'm game.  
<<<

Feel free to jump in and take these. When I volunteered to do them, my school work was in a lull period, but as my rotten luck would have it, I got hammered with things to do right after I volunteered. There was a point a couple months back when I thought I could squeeze these reviews in, but than I got hammered with things to do at my job. Thus, I have not made any progress on either Disrict X 7-12 or Punisher: Red Xmas and who knows when I may get to them. 
_________________
[Insert Witty Remark Here]

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Posted: 27 Nov 2005 12:16 am    
By Col_Fury

PopularLoser: Now that it's finished, did you want me to do Daredevil: Redemption, too? It wouldn't be a problem, but I won't get a chance until later into December...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 27 Nov 2005 07:07 pm    
By PopularLoser

You can have that one too. I still haven't gotten around to reading to last issue. 
_________________
[Insert Witty Remark Here]

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Thread 93

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 01:51 am    Post subject: Bullseye: Greatest Hits limited series
By John Simons

This miniseries is a little tricky to review, because the flashbacks are all narrated by Bullseye, and clearly there is fiction mixed in with truth. Most of the flashbacks seem to follow a pattern that Bullseyes narration to the feds is suspect, while the action which is actually depicted is what really happened. Unfortunately even this is not 100% reliable, as we learn in issue 5 that one of the FBs from issue 1 was a complete fabrication through and through! Still it is clear that some, perhaps most, of what Bullseye relates is on the up and up-- but at some point he is definitely jerking his interrogators chains. 

Bullseye: Greatest Hits 1-5 (Nov. 2004-March 2005) 
Writer: Daniel Way 
Artist: Steve Dillon 

Issue 1 synopsis: 
Two government agents, NSA agent Scott Hoskins and NSA/CIA agent Marcus Baldry, enter what appears to be a closed down Ironworks, but is secretly a maximum security prison for seven former NSA operatives who went rogue and had to be taken down. As they are stripped of their belongings and don hospital gowns (so they will possess nothing that a convict can use as a weapon), their conversation reveals why they are here. Up until a week ago, there was a duplicate facility on the East coast, but Bullseye somehow caused that prisons self-destruct system to set it on fire, then he sniped the entire staff as they tried to escape the building. Subsequently, Bullseye stole three black-market nukes off a frieghter in Anchorage Bay. Crossing the Canadian border into the U.S. he was cornered by an 8-man strike team led by Hoskins, and he killed 7 of them before keeling over with a seizure and being captured. Hoskins, the only survivor, has a scar across his face from the incident, and harbors a righteous anger at the deaths of his fellow agents. 

The two agents take a ride fourteen levels below ground, where the warden and a security tech named Philip explain the extraordinary measures taken to keep their dangerous prisoners contained. Also on-site is Horace, a cyborg who is the only armed person in the complex. 

En route to Bullseyes cell Baldry explains that he intends to use a good cop/bad cop scenario on the prisoner, getting Bullseye to talk about his past to soften him up and eventually get him to tell where the nukes are. Bullseye seems to respond to this approach, and tells a story of his childhood in the Bronx, while the warden receives a call that the missiles have been found, but the plutonium is missing. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Scott Hoskins 
Marcus Baldry 
the Ironworks Warden 
Philip 
Horace 

FB (p 16): 27 Years ago, according to a caption. 
According to his story, Bullseye grew up in the Bronx, where he lived with his mother and his brother "Nathan" (we learn in issue 5 that Bullseye's brother's name is actually Lester). This scene shows Nate and Leonard (Bullseyes real name) on a rooftop, and Nate is shooting pigeons with a BB gun. He refuses to let Leonard to take a turn with the gun, and tells him to learn some tricks with his yo-yo instead. When Nates back is turned, Leonard hurls the yo-yo into the sky and kills a pigeon with it. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye (appears to be about 8-10 in this scene) 
Lester/"Nathan" (described as Bullseye's older brother) 

FB (p 17, panels 3-6) Their father was a government man who was out of town a lot, but when he did show up at home he was an abusive drunk who beat up their mother. These panels depict their surly father scowling over a bottle of something, and the two brothers cowering in a corner crying as their mother lies unconscious in a pool of blood. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Lester/"Nathan" 
their father and mother (unnamed) 

FB (p18 pn1-6) The brothers are eating at the kitchen table, and Leonard is explaining that his dream is to be a baseball player someday. Nathan says he wants to kill dad someday, and Leonard agrees. Although panel 7 of this sequence is suspect (as Ill explain in a minute), the rest of the scene could have happened as told, since Leonard does indeed go on to become a baseball player, and its entirely believable the hatred the boys feel for their father. 
Panel 7 is suspect because Nathan tells Leonard, Dont come home today. implying something bad is going to happen. This sets up the next FB, which is revealed to be a lie in issue 5, therefore while the rest of this scene may be valid, panel 7 is probably not. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Lester/"Nathan" 

FB (pp19-21) Bullseye tells a bunch of BS about returning home from school and finding his apartment building on fire. Nathan appears at the window long enough to scream that their mother is dead, before being dragged inside by their vengeful father. As revealed in issue 5, it was Bullseye who set the fire, and all members of the family survive the event. 

Issue 2 synopsis: Agents Baldry and Hoskins are summoned by the warden, who reveals that the missiles were dismantled and disguised as a jungle gym on a playground! Hoskins is furious that Baldry wants to keep talking to Bullseye instead of take a rougher approach, and he busts up a bunch of computer equipment in frustration. 

Back at the cell, Baldry asks Bullseye about his days as a pitcher. After remorselessly killing a hitter with a pitched ball, he was recruited by the CIA and eventually sent to Nicaragua. 


Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Scott Hoskins 
Marcus Baldry 
the Ironworks Warden 
Philip 
Horace 

FB (p 10) After the fire, Leonard moved from foster family to foster family before ending up living with a childless couple named the Wilkersons. This page shows Leonard being brought to the home, apparently by a social worker, then a scene of him at the dinner table where Mr. Wilkersons tells Leonard its okay to call him Dad 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
social worker 
Mr and Mrs Wilkerson 

FB (pp11-18) Mr. Wilkerson encouraged Leonard to play sports in high school, and he was such an outstanding pitcher he was signed to the minor leagues right after graduation. He only pitched in 3 minor league games before being called up to the majors. Leonard pitched a no-hitter for 8.2 innings, then got bored and asked the manager to pull him from the game. When the manager refused and the batter taunted him, Leonard killed him with the ball. 
This FB has to be for real, because it is so easily verifiable. There is no way in hell that Leonards name wouldnt be known by even non-baseball fans after such a shocking incident live on TV. Also this would seem to verify that if Bullseyes birth name is not Leonard, at the very least it must be the name he was using during his short baseball career. Too bad his last name is never mentioned! 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Mr. Wilkerson 
various misc baseball players 

FB (p 20) On the CIA shooting range, Leonard begins shooting at the paper target before the instructor is finshed with his introduction. When he is ordered to hold his fire, he offhandely flips the gun over his shoulder, sending the whole weapon careening through the head of the paper target. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
firing range instructor and agents-in-training. 

FB (p 21, panel 1) a quick shot of Leonard in a suit, reading a Top Secret file, and a superior discussing with him the fact that hes being sent to Nicaragua 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
a CIA boss 

FB (p22) This is a full-page panel depicting the Punisher in Nicaragua, amid dead bodies and in front of a burning warehouse. 

Characters appearing: 
Punisher 

Issue 3 
Plutonium from one of the nuclear warheads has been found on a train bound for Mexico city, as well as the corpse of one of Bullseyes accomplices in the theft. Thinking it might have been bound for Nicaragua, Baldry returns to Bullseye and asks about his time there. Bullseye tells the story of how he stole a bunch of drug money, although he completely leaves out the fact that the Punisher messed up the whole deal for him and he actually got nothing. After the Nicaragua debacle he was recruited by the NSA and sent back to New York City. 

FB (pp 4-8, 10-20) This extended flashback covers Bullseyes entire trip to Nicaragua, where he was sent by the CIA to train the local soldiers how to wage war on the sandinistas. The de facto leader of this militia was named Paolo, and Bullseye learned from him that Colombian drug smugglers were using their landing strip to ship cocaine to the U.S. Seeing the opportunity to make some quick cash, Bullseye convinces his men to kill the smugglers and take possession of the stockpiled cocaine. He sets up the oblivious Paolo as a puppet crime lord, then sends the word out to syndicates around the world to come to Nicaragua and pay him tons of cash for the coke. Unfortunately, the Punisher catches wind of this meeting, and makes his way Nicaragua himself. Most of the attendees are blown up by the vigilante, and the money is burned too! Bullseye and Punisher battle in the jungle, and Punny is not only hit in the chest with a thrown knife (his kevlar saves his life), but he breaks his wrist in a bad fall. The duel is unfinished because the DEA arrive on-scene, taking Bullseye into custody while Punisher slinks back into the jungle. 
Theres no real way to gague how much time passes in this story, but based on all that happens it is probably several months of Bullseyes life. 


Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Punisher (Since this all takes place just before Bullseye dons a costume and becomes a super-villain, for the Punisher this has to take place prior to ASM 161-162, if we go by publication dates. Bullseye premiered in March 1976 and the Punisher showed up in ASM 161 in Oct 76. Marvel Super Action 1 had a publication date of Jan 76, so I would recommend placing this FB just before or after that appearence for the Punisher. If there is a sizable gap between Marvel Preview 2 and Marvel Super Action, I recommend putting in there since Punny has to heal from a broken wrist) 
Paolo 
various guerillas, smugglers, crime lords and DEA agents. 

Page 22 depicts the moment Bullseye killed Elektra, but nothing new is added. 


Issue 4 synopsis: 
Bullseye tells the agents how he came to New York, donned a costume, and became a notorious super-villain in the media. When he taunts them about the warheads, Hoskins loses his cool, and has to go have a talk with the warden. Bullseye tells Baldry a story about how the NSA actually set the Kingpin of crime up in New York in order to keep super-powered beings in check-- then he admits he made the whole thing up. Baldry is defeated at his own game, and the warden agress to let Hoskins into Bullseyes cell to use harsher methods to get the location of the plutonium out of him. 

FB (pp 1-2) This is basically a 2-page shot of all sorts of colorful characters walking the streets of New York, pulling in on a basement level apartment where a punk designer has created a costume for Bullseye. It presumably takes place just before his debut in DD 131. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Punk designer and misc NYers 

FB (p 3 pn 2 and 3) 
As Bullseye narrates that he pulled a couple high-profile jobs in NY, panel 2 depicts him on the phone while a bound and gagged man lies on the floor behind him. He explains that he granted interviews to the press, and panel 3 depicts various New Yorkers reading about him in the Daily Bugle. Since I dont own DD 131, I dont know if these are new scenes or not, but I can verify that the cover of the Bugle shown in panel 3 matches the paper shown on page 12 of DD 132. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
a hostage and some NYers 

FB (p 4) this single panel depicts Bullseye swinging from a trapeze and flinging a bowling pin at Daredevil. It is clearly meant to be from the fight that opens DD 132 although when Bullseye hurls bowling pins at DD in that issue he is standing on the ground, not swinging from a trapeze. Not sure if this would qualify as a new scene taking place between panels of DD 132, but I assume the best solution would be to write off the trapeze part as Bullseye misremembering. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Daredevil 

FB (p 12 pn 1) This is a generic panel of the Kingpin sitting in his office as Bullseye first brings up his name to Baldry. It really depicts nothing and is probably not even worth listing in Kingpins chronology. 

FB (p14 pn 1-5) This scene depicts the Kingpin discussing Bullseyes reputation with him and offering him money and consideration if he will deal with a liability. (Baldry assumes the liability in question is Daredevil, although the FB doesn't specifically confirm that) 

At first this scene would seem to be tricky to place. Within the context of Bullseyes narration to Baldry, this scene appears before scenes from DD 160 and 161, but this cant be. At that point, the Kingpin was retired and he hadnt been drawn back into crime again, and at any rate Bullseye definitely wasnt working for him yet. Bullseye begins to work for Kingpin in DD 172, however by the end of the issue hes been taken down by Daredevil. Therefore I propose this FB must take place for both Kingpin and Bullseye between pp. 13 and 15 of DD 172, presumably after Kingpin has had his gunshot wound taken care of. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Kingpin 
a couple of gun-wielding thugs 

FB (p15 pn 3-5) Depicts scenes of Bullseye abusing Black Widow, from DD 160 and 161, with no new info. 

FB (p16) Depicts scenes of Bullseye battling and killing Elektra from DD 181. Panel 1 shows him chasing her across rooftops, but this is probably a misrembrance on Bullseyes part since the actual battle took place in a parking garage. 

FB (p 17-18) This is a tricky one. The full-page panel on page 18 clearly depicts the scene from the beginning of DD 169 in which Bullseye, in trenchcoat, is seeing Daredevils everywhere. It offers nothing new, and seeing as how all the DDs are spouting his evil father's old line, Is that the best you can do? it is clearly a representation of whats going on in his deluded head. 
As for page 17, it depicts Bullseye, in costume, feeling that DD is right behind him, and flinging a knife at a brick wall. This is the same kind of paranoia from issue 169, although there is no such scene currently in that book. Therefore, while I would disregard page 18, I might place the FB on page 17 between pages 6 and 7 of DD 169. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 

Issue 5 synopsis: 
Hoskins and Baldry enter Bullseyes cell, with Horace backing them up. Meanwhile, the warden gets a call that, contrary to previous theory, Bullseye does not have a tumor, but rather some scarring from an old surgery and therefore must have faked the seizure that got him captured. 
Hoskins begins working him over and Bullseye keeps antagonizing him. With cold dread the feds realize that Hoskins has knocked one of Bullseyes teeth out. Bullseye kills Hoskins with a tooth between the eyes(!) and when Horace tries to shoot him, like Wonder Woman Bullseye uses his nigh-unbreakable manacles to deflect the shot right back through the cyborgs cybernetic eye. 
The staff of the prison sets the self destruct and tries to evacuate, but they are assassinated leaving the building by men in suits who intend to buy the plutonium from Bullseye. 
Bullseye gleefully tells Baldry that a lot of the family history he gave (in issue 1) was bull. His brothers name is Lester, not Nathan, and he is alive and well with a family. It was Bullseye who set fire to his father, but the canny NSA operative survived and ran off. Bullseye lets Baldry run away flailing like a chicken, but the agent gets trapped in containment foam meant to keep the prisoners from escaping. 
Using Horaces corpses handprint, Bullseye tracks down his bedridden father, who is one of the other prisoners. He tells his father Moms dead, by the way as he rolls his bed to the glass door of a fireproof cell. Bullseye then gets inside the cell and watches his father burn with the rest of the installation. 
After the fire burns down somewhat, Bullseye makes his way out to the snipers outside and completes the sale of the remaining plutonium for $3 million. Then he drives away, still in a hospital gown and shackles, but a smile on his face. 

FB (p14) 
Bullseyes father, afire, jumps out of the window into a dumpster, where the flames are doused. Badly hurt, he runs off into the night, as a young Leonard watches while being comforted by a cop. 

Characters appearing: 
Bullseye 
Bullseyes father 

The present-day part of the story appears to take place over a single day. Bullseye was on the loose prior to stealing the warheads, and he is free again at the end of the story. He already has the bullseye scar carved into his forehead. (I cant remember where he picked that up, but this takes place after that) 

It should be noted that events of Bullseye's past depicted in this miniseries (even the true version revealed at the end of 5) seem to contradict what was previously revealed in ELEK 2. Those events are reiterated in Bullseyes entry in the Daredevil 2004 Handbook, however that handbook was published prior to the release of this miniseries. Although I dont have ELEK 2 (and perhaps someone could check this for me) the Bullseye entry mentions when he became distracted while recounting his youth, Elektra gained the upper hand and beat him unconscious. This suggests to me that the FBs in ELEK 2 are as told by Bullseye, and therefore are no more or less credible than what is mentioned here. Either he was lying to Elektra or he was lying to Baldry. However, since it would be childs play to verify that a major league pitcher named Leonard killed a man in his first game, and since the broken man at the end of B: GH 5 is clearly intended to be Bullseyes father, I think the weight of the evidence would seem to be that the info about Bullseye which appears in ELEK 2 has been thrown out of continuity.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 04:45 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

This is one of those cases where the events of previous stories clearly take precedence over Bullseye's flashbacks, because the story is quite emphatic that Bullseye is lying about at least some of what he's saying. 

In fact, this raises a question about what we should do with flashbacks which are clearly presented as doubtful. In this case, broadly speaking, we can probably assume that the flashbacks are accurate where the art deviates from Bullseye's dialogue. After all, if the art isn't illustrating the dialogue, what else can it be showing us but actual events?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 09:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
In this case, broadly speaking, we can probably assume that the flashbacks are accurate where the art deviates from Bullseye's dialogue. After all, if the art isn't illustrating the dialogue, what else can it be showing us but actual events? 
<<<

That just happened recently in M/TU3. The art that accompanied Titannus' cock-and-bull dialog about his backstory showed events as they actually happened. The flashbacks are canonical history; the narration is canonical contemporary BS.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 94

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 07:40 pm    Post subject: Pre-Hero monster stories part of Earth-616
By Enda80

This is a list I came up with of 1950's/1960's horror charachters 
who have gotten incorporated into Earth-616 continuity. I can do 
a more formal version, listing first appearance and story that 
incorporated them into Earth-616, but I just want to know if anyone 
can think of any others. 
Oh, as for Master Khan, I remember a story from Where Monsters 
Dwell that had him, but it may have been a doctored reprint. 
(A story from Tales to Astonish got doctored into a Doctor 
Druid story in Weird Wonder Tales#18, and a Strange Tales story 
by Ditko got doctored into a S.H.I.E.L.D. and Hydra story, so these 
things happen!) Ruler of the Earth 

Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to see who made it in. 

1. Xemnu 
2. Fin Fang Foom 
3. Henry Pym (later Ant-Man) 
4. Dracula (in Suspense#7 and Journey into Unknown Worlds#29) 
5. Simon Garth/Zombie 
6. Frankenstein Monster2 
7. Gorgilla 
8. Zzutak 
9. Grotto 
10. Skull-Face*3 
11. Gigantus 
12. The Blip 
13. Diablo 
14. Goom 
15. Googam 
16. Master Khan*4 
17. Groot 
18. Taboo 
19. Merlin* (Strange Tales#108) 
20. Adam Clayton 
21. Boy from Amazing Adult Fantasy#14 
22. Dr. Droom/Dr. Druid 
23. Spragg 
24. Medusa (mythological) 
25. Midas (mythological)? 
26. Satan6 
27. Death7 
28. Dr. Arthur Nagan 
29. Jerry Morgan 
30. Chandu the Mystic 
31. Creatures from Kroggar 
32. Zzutak 
33. Aquaticons 
34. Black Knight, Sir Morgard 
35. Adam Clayton 
36. Bull Drago, Totem 
37. Elektro 
38. Grogg 
39. Groot 
40. Grottu 
41. Gigantus 
42. Monstrollo 
43. Manoo 
44. Shadow Monsters from three stories 
47. Krang 
48. Emil Vogel 
49. Gargantus 
50. Bombu 
51. Gor-Kill 
52. Abominable Snowman 
53. Taboo 
54. Fin Fang Foom 
55. Orrgo 
56. Blip Diablo 
57.l Sporr 
58.Xemnu 
59. Brute that Walks 
60. Googam 
61. Tomb of Darkness#22 (with doctored in Pym) 
62. Taboo 
63. Spragg 
64.Rorgg 
65. Molten Man-Thing 
66. Krra 
67. Stonians 
68 Tim Boo Ba 
69. Van Doom 
70. Odin 
71. Zeus 
72. Grogg 
73. Rommbu 
74. Droom (not Doctor Droom) 
75. Two-Headed Thing 
76. Klagg 
77. Gruto 

1 Appearances in pre-code stories may not tie in with Earth-616 stories 
2Appearances in pre-code stories may not tie in with Earth-616 stories 
3 Appears in What If....I#9, which may not take place on Earth-616 
4 May have been a doctored reprint 
5 Appearances in pre-code stories may not tie in with Earth-616 stories. 
6 Appearances in pre-code stories may not tie in with Earth-616 stories 
7 Appearances in pre-code stories may not tie in with Earth-616 stories 


Ronald Byrd 

> 1. Where did the 1942 USSR orbiting facility story come from? 

Okay, this one I can't specifically cite right now, since I have only 
fragmentary notes on this computer, but it was from an early Atlas 
sf/fantasy/horror anthology issue, late 1940s or early 1950s. 

> 2. Where was it revaled that Stalin started a democide program for Soviet 
mutants? 

I think there was a line in Ursa Major's OHMU entry to that effect, or perhaps 
in the Incr Hulk storyline where Phobos's school was first mentioned; besides, 
it's a logical deduction, it fit in with the USSR's sort-of scientific collapse 
from following Lysenko, and, hey, if you're going to pin a genoicide program on 
someone in the USSR, you really can't go wrong with Stalin. Plus, I did say 
Stalin "may have" done so; that's not definitive. 

> 3. Where did the Man come from? 

Suspense #20; the story was about a bumbling communist agent who, like his 
fellow spies in the US, was terrified of "the Man." I don't remember the whole 
plot, but the twist comes when the protagonist is killed by "the Man"...who is 
not a man at all but is in fact the protagonist's own wife. Like Battle Brady's 
enemies General Olga (who was in an earlier draft of the profile) and Manchurai 
Mary, the Man proved that a woman could be as much a "commie" as any man. 

> 4. When was Stalin impersonated by a demon? 

Marvel Tales #111; a man, believing that "Satan" (Mephisto, Cloot, whoever, it 
hardly matters right now; "Satan" was up to a lot of stuff in the old Atlas 
stories) has taken up residence on Earth, searches the world for him, finally 
heading to the USSR (well, in a 1950s comic book, where else?). But Stalin 
himself is "Satan" (we see that his shadow has horns) and has the man sent to a 
gulag or something. Presumably, even in the Marvel Universe, Stalin was not an 
actual demon, so evidently he was impersonated by one. 


> 5. Was Oleg from Soldier X? 

Oleg, an armored Soviet agent pretending to be an alien invader (so things 
really hadn't progressed all that much by the time Mongu and others turned up, I 
suppose), fought Namor in Young Men #26; It's Geo who was from Soldier X. 

> 6. Who was the Pretender who mimiced Kruschchev? 

An extraterrestrial from Tales to Astonish #31; the protagonist tracks the 
alien, whom he fears is going to destroy the world, only to find a photo of the 
alien's new form and realize that it's "too late...much too late." The photo, 
of course, is of Khruschev. 

I've come across plenty of other references in Atlas issues to magic, 
super-science, and general weirdness in the USSR (where, of course, things never 
work out well for the high-ranking Soviets, although the rebelling populace does 
well now and then), and I have no doubt that there are many more in the hundreds 
of such issues that I still haven't laid eyes on yet. Maybe one day... 


JACK THE RIPPER/TOM MALVERNE 
ADVENTURES INTO TERROR 29 
DRSTR3 23/2-FB 
T 372-FB 
E @1 
ALL-SELECT COMICS 7 
ADVENTURES INTO TERROR 29 
ASTONISHING 18 

Bodavia 
I am actually compiling a list of those pre-1967 monsters who are now canon due to reference. 

Oog is now a part of the mainstrean universe. In 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/leestanl.htm 
(Marvel Comics: History of the Marvels) - Starting from circa the 1950s, the majority of Atlas output was devoted to titles depicting supposedly authenticated tales of peoples encounters with extraterrestrial lifeforms. Creatures such as Goom and Oog and Groot filled the pages-each tale personally verified and vouched for by Stan Lee and his staff. 

Chamber of Chills#8 (in a story set partially in the 1920s) 
Where Monsters Dwell#27 
Monsters on the Prowl#23/1 
Monsters on the Prowl#23/2 

The Silencer also came from Bodavia. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/silencrf.htm 

I figure that a reference to Bodavia serves to make things canon, same as if it was changed to Latveria. 

In addition, the Watcher in Star Wars Weekly was shown observing some future stories. 

Tales of Suspense 34's The Forbidden World! was reprintedin an issue of Star Wars Weekly in Britain. SWW#89 renames it the Forbidden Planet and airbrushes in the Watcher (Uatu) as a narrator. 

The reprints in Star Wars Weekly with the Watcher airbrushed in include; 

SWW 89 
Forbidden Planet 

SWW 93 
My Other Face from Journey Into Mystery #54, September 1959 

SWW 61 
Thing From Planet X from Tales of Suspense#3, May 1959 

SWW 48 
Pildorr the Plunderer from Stange Tales#94, March 1962 

SWW 72 
Lost Planet! 

SWW 82 
The Wings of the Butterfly from Journey Into Mystery#79, April 1962 

SWW 115 
Miracle On Rrorgo! 

Later issues have reprints titled Tales of the Watcher, but he does not appear as narrator.

Last edited by Enda80 on 27 Nov 2005 09:36 am; edited 5 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 03:45 am    
By rhod

You've listed Xemnu twice.

			*	*	*

Thread 95

Posted: 26 Nov 2005 02:56 pm    Post subject: Mars
By Enda80

Pre-Hero 

Mars made quite a few pre-hero appearances, as I have 
seen from an article in From the Tomb magazine. 
Notable appearaces: 
http://www.google.com/search?q=Mars&hl=en&lr=&domains=www.comics.org&sitesearch=www.comics.org&start=120&sa=N 
I will also do a Timely-Atlas search for Mars or 
Martians, as well as GCD 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&domains=www.atlastales.com&q=Martians+OR+Mars+OR+Martian&sitesearch=www.atlastales.com 


Adventures into Weird Worlds#24 
Journey into Unknown Worlds#36 
Return from Mars 
Journey into Unknown Worlds#7 
Strange Tales#84, 91 
Journey Into Unknown Worlds#32 
Adventures Into Terror#8 
Adventures into Mystery#14 
Astonishing#57 
Uncanny Tales#14 
Journey Into Mystery#73 
JIM#15? 
Tales of Suspense#3, 22 
Spellbound#19 
Uncanny Tales#14 
Astonishing#43 
Mystery Tales#46 
Uncanny Tales#14 
TTA#25 
JIM#5 
JIM#15 
Romanoff's Rumour 
Crazy Man 
John Forte 
Look Out for the Martians 
Strange Tales 78 
Venus 15 
Strange Tales 24 
Strange Tales 64 
Strange Tales 68 
Marvel Tales 111 
Journey Into Mystery 73 
Tales to Astonish 3 
Journey Into Mystery 58 
Journey Into Mystery 52 
Journey Into Mystery 57 
Tales to Astonish 2 
Tales to Astonish 4 
Daily Clarion, X Robot 
Adventures Into Weird Worlds 24 
Spaceman 5 
Spaceman 3 

C-115 The Man From Mars? Adventures Into Weird Worlds 
17 
Kida 4 Stan 
> Lee 1953 April 

Buscema, John STRANGE WORLDS 4 June/59 Manhunt On 
Mars! 5 pages A-384 Under The Knife! Creatures On The 
Loose 18 DiPreta 5 weird 
adventure into terror Adventures into Terror 11 
A-444 Thru The Door Crypt Of Shadows 2 Brown Gantz 4 
A-478 How Clumsy Can Ya Be Vault Of Evil 2 Post? 4 
A-506? Ed's Young Wife! Monsters On The Prowl 19 Brown 
Ganz 3 
Adventures into Terror 
A-627 The Voice Of Doom! Beware! 2 5 story about 
horror comics publisher 
A-629 Do Not Feed! Spellbound 19 DiPreta 6 Weird 
Worlds? 
A-634 The Man From Mars Beware! 2 3 signed by Lee 
A-691 Blind Date Beware! 2 5 Sekowsky? 
A-854 O'Malley's Friend Beware! 2 Colan 5 devil 
B-218 Death Waits Within! Journey Into Mystery 8 4 
arsenic and old lace 
B-263? The Hiding Place Vault Of Evil 2 4 
B-310 The Bewitched Bike Journey Into Mystery 8 
DiPreta 6 
B-341 The Bugs Vault Of Evil 2 LW 4 interesting 
storytelling 
B-349 Innocent Bystander Crypt Of Shadows 2 Briefer 5 
B-419 The Island Spellbound 19 Mass 5 Marvel Tales? 
B-422 The Tarantula! Vault Of Evil 3 5 giant 
man-spiders 
B-495 Jaws Of Death Vault Of Evil 3 Massey 5 funny 
style 
B-546 The Woman Who Wasn't Vault Of Evil 3 DiPreta 6 
B-641 The Lion's Mouth! Vault Of Evil 3 4 circus story 
B-763 On The Spot! Vault Of Evil 5 Reinman 5 
C-170 The Tough Guy Journey Into Mystery 4 Maneely 6 
Stan Lee/super 
strong skin 
C-173 Joe's Weak Spot Creatures On The Loose 30 Walton 
2 boxing 
C-188 Poor Mister Watkins Vault Of Evil 1 5 Stan Lee 
C-189 The Man Who Couldn't Move Crypt Of Shadows 2 
Tuska 5 Stan Lee 
C-265 The Girl Who Couldn't Die Journey Into Mystery 2 
Lawrence 4 
C-408 The Strange Case Of Mr. Whimple! Journey Into 
Mystery 4 5 siamese 
twins 
C-486? Rudolph's Racket Uncanny Tales 1 4 
C-500 The Executioner Where Monsters Dwell 26 3 EC 
swipe 
C-503 Indoor Sport! Journey Into Mystery 4 Kweskin 5 
witch 
C-545 The Withered Hand Vault Of Evil 1 Reinman 5 
C-990 What Would you Do? Creepy Worlds 152 Katz 4 
Siamese Twins 

G-789 Man Alone! Astonishing 43 5 Mars Landing 1955 
Nov 

B-636 The Marine From Mars Man Comics 23 text story 
1953 Feb 
B-636 The Marine From Mars Man Comics 23 text story 
1953 Feb 

Creepy Worlds 172 Ditko 5 Nice little Ditko tale not 
signed by Stan Lee. There is a futuristic scene in the 
last panel that is very much like the one in the Face 
On Mars story Stan Taylor send around in the Kirby 
pictures group. And both owe a l... 

Strange Tales #64 (Aug 1958) 
> Cover by Joe Maneely: "The Strange Laboratory of 
> Dr. Domino!!" 
> M-377 "The Secret Laboratory of Dr. Domino" (4 pp.) 
> Art [by Al 
> Williamson]. 
> K-85 "What Is Monium?" (4 pp.) Art by John Forte. 
> K-170 "So This Is Mars!" (3 pp.) Dear Doc V, 
Dave O'Dell has confirmed all the JIM's except:- 
JIM #27, Oct-55, Canam, 
"It Happened On Mars" (G-787) Tartaglione (unsigned) 
5pp
