	Marvel Universe Forum
1. New Avengers 11
2. A 72-FB
3. Spider-Man: The Mutant Agenda
4. Secret War #5
5. Sentinel Squad O*N*E
6. Onslaught early appearance in UX 309
7. HOM reading order?
8. Marvel Holiday Special 2005
9. Iron Man #231
10. A 80-FB, 81-FB
11. A 83
12. CA 130,131,132
13. SS 12 - FB, SS 13-FB
14. IM 24
15. House of Muffins
16. Power Pack minis - canon?
17. Characters as Historical/Fictional Figure (Thing/Blackbeard)
18. Fantastic Four #187
19. Classic X-Men # 23
20. Snakes Alive!
21. Mantis/JLA
22. Howard the Duck Magazine #4
23. SUB-M 27-BTS
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25. Early history referred to in OHOTMU
26. NOM2 miscellaneous
27. Apocalypse
28. MCBRIDE, CHASTITY
29. ANT-MAN/DR. HENRY J. PYM
30. Spectacular Spider-Man #139
31. Daredevil 60,61,63,64-Flashbacks
32. Uncanny X-men 120
33. Is "Supernaturals" in continuity?
34. Death
35. Birthdates of characters
36. IM 33-34, DD 71-73 Additions
37. Avengers 84-87 Additions
38. Inovative Flashback Material
39. New Avengers: Most Wanted Files
40. Page, Karen
41. Sub-M 32 Additions
42. IKTHON
43. A 88/H2 140 corrections
44. AA2 1 & 2/2 additions
45. H2 133, 134 corrections
46. CA Additions
47. A 90 Additions
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49. Uncanny X-men 144
50. Sub-M 37 & 38 Additions
51. Uncanny Origins #9
52. Hulk #340
53. DD vs Punisher
54. X:HY corrections
55. M/TU 1
56. FF 108-109

	Issue Analysis Forum
57. Chronology Review for AF2 13/2-14/2, (Captain Universe)
58. What If? vol. 1 #20
59. Daredevil: Redemption 1-6
60. Nightcrawler v3 #1-4
61. District X 7-12
62. Chronology Review for Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #7-12
63. Punisher: Silent Night
64. M/SPT 1 & Red Wolf 1-9
65. Call for analyses -- upcoming stories
66. Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 Issue #87
67. Nightcrawler v3 12
68. Captain Universe Series
69. New Warriors vol.3
70. Nightcrawler vol.3 no.7-11
71. Chronology Review for Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #13-14
72. Nightcrawler v3 5-6
73. Ororo: Before the Storm #1-4
74. Shang Chi: Master of Kung Fu 3-6!

	Chat Forum
75. List of Malibu & Marvel/Malibu Ultraverse Comics
76. For the New Universe completist...
77. Blade
78. What's coming from Marvel in February
79. What's Coming from Marvel in March:





Thread 1

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 01:05 am    Post subject: New Avengers 11
By Col_Fury

A4 11 reveals that the Silver Samurai escaped from the Raft in A4 1-6. He was put there for "according to reports, international crimes involving his cousin, Sunfire." This seems to be a reference to Rogue 7-12, which involved the Silver Samurai & Sunfire caught up in criminal activity involving organized crime in Japan. 

Now, exactly how Japanese organized crime is classified as international crime I'm not sure, but I don't see this being a reference to anything else. Silver Samurai's memories were erased shortly before these 6 issues of Rogue, which is what turned the Silver Samurai back into a villain. Sunfire was surprised by this turn of events. Even if A4 11 is referring to an unpublished adventure, A4 1-6 still needs to occur after Rogue 7-12. The Silver Samurai has been in hiding with the Yakuza since his escape from the Raft, which is why Cap is asking Matt Murdock to find him. He can't make an appearance in Rogue 7-12 during this gap because of this. Therefore, Rogue 7-12 happens before A4 1-6. 

Sunfire appears in MTU 1-6, which I think we all agree takes place before Rogue 7-12. MTU 1-6 shows Sunfire as the official guardian of Japan, alive, & with 'real' flesh legs.(under his tattered costume) Rogue 7-12 shows Sunfire denounced as the guardian of Japan,(due to the criminal allegations) having his legs amputated, his consciousness absorbed by Rogue, and possibly dying. 

So if MTU 1-6 precedes Rogue 7-12, & Rogue 7-12 occurs before A4 1-6, MTU 1-6 happens before A4 1-6. 

Sadly, this means that Spider-Man's comment to Wolverine about being on so many teams doesn't work as well. Any thoughts?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 08:17 am    
By Mikhail

Further, Silver Samurai also appeared this month in the Kitty Pryde limited series where she apparently killed him. This will almost certainly be revealed next issue as a trick to fool the ninjas spying on their battle, but it still leaves open this limited's placement. Kitty's in her new costume, putting it after Astonishing X-Men #1-6, and Samurai's actions don't totally rule out it being before or after his encounter with Blindspot.

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 07:04 pm    
By the Krayon

im confused, how exactly does this affect spider-man's comment?

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 07:44 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think what the Krayon is saying is, we decided months ago that MTU3 #1-6 occur before NA #1. 

Well, most of us did, at any rate. I imagine Paul Bourcier is planning on waiting until Secret War #5 finally sneaks its way out to make a decision.  

No offense, Paul. We love ya! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 07:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
No offense, Paul. We love ya!  
<<<

Gee, I'm all verklempt. 

But no, this sequence of events is evidence enough for me that M/TU3 1-6 must occur before ROGUE3 7-12, which must occur before A4 1-10, which must occur before M/TU3 7-13. Now to reconfigure everything YET AGAIN.  

Then again, you just never know what SECWAR 5 is going to do... 

_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Sep 2005 10:01 pm    
By Antonio Gavio

So, if MTU3 1-6 occur before ROGUE3 7-12, which occur before A4 1-10, which occur before MTU3 7-13, where exactly lies the problem?

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Posted: 01 Oct 2005 06:20 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hopefully, there is no problem (outside of that Spidey dialog about Wolvie being on too many teams and Spidey's familiar tone with Steve Rogers). We'll see if there are any other thorns when I rejuggle things to conform to this sequence of events.
_________________
Paul B.

			-	-	-

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 06:40 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Sunfire appears in Marvel Team-Up #8, with fully functioning legs and acting in public as a superhero. So that story evidently takes place before Rogue #7-12. Since the Silver Samurai isn't even a known villain before Rogue #7-12, this would seem to have the effect of shunting the entire run of Marvel Team-Up back before New Avengers #1 - since, while that might cause some problems with minor references in Marvel Team-Up, there are far more fundamental plot difficulties with having it occur any later.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Oct 2005 08:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

Damn it -- I should have caught that! You're right -- the Tokyo arc in MTU3 #7-13 occurs while Sunfire is still alive -- and also after A4 #1. Crap. 

Okay, idea: 

Blindspot wipes the Silver Samurai's memories *prior* to Rogue v3 #7, right? When we see him there he's already BACK to villainry. So how about putting his brief time on the Raft prior to the Rogue arc? How about this sequence of events? 

MTU3 #1-6. Prior to A4 #1 (due, if for no other reason, to editorial intent.) 

Blindspot wipes the Samurai's memory in preparation for her plan. He goes back to villainry, commits an international crime and is quietly arrested by Sunfire and sent to the Raft. 

(Remember -- in A4 #11, the Samurai was sent to the raft for "*international* crimes involving Sunfire". He didn't do anything "international" in ROGUE3 #7-12 -- so it's possible to rationalize the comment and assume that he was sent to the Raft, BY Sunfire, for something *other* than his actions in the Rogue arc.) 

A4 #1-10. The new team forms, and the Samurai escapes the Raft. 

MTU3 #7-13. The New Avengers are a team, and Sunfire is alive. 

ROGUE3 #7-12. Sunfire is killed (or, at the very least, maimed and drained of power). The Samurai is in Japan acting as a villain. 

A4 #11-13. The Samurai is in Japan acting as a villain. 


Now, I don't have ROGUE3 #12 -- so I don't know the Samurai's fate in that arc. But unless they specifically say that he was being sent to the Raft, I think we have enough wiggle room to declare that he simply escaped his fate and went right back to villainry in time for A4 #11. 

That, or A4 #11-13 could occur before ROGUE3 #7-12 -- but since Bendis is referencing the Rogue arc in A4 #11, I'd like to keep it afterwards. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Oct 2005 09:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Blindspot wipes the Silver Samurai's memories *prior* to Rogue v3 #7, right? When we see him there he's already BACK to villainry. So how about putting his brief time on the Raft prior to the Rogue arc?  
<<<

Doesn't work, I'm afraid. As of ROGUE #7, nobody knows yet that the Samurai has gone back to villainy - Sunfire still regards him as a trusted ally. It's pretty much inconceivable that Rogue or Sunfire would be unaware that the Silver Samurai had gone back to villainy, been caught, and served time in an American prison.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Oct 2005 09:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Hmm. Okay - something's going to have to give here. The basic problems: 

* Sunfire possibly dies, and at the very least loses his legs, in ROGUE #7-12. Therefore any story in which he appears must precede ROGUE #7-12 (save for HOUSE OF M crossovers). 

* Sunfire appears in MARVEL TEAM-UP #8-9, which lead directly into the current arc in that book. Therefore all of MARVEL TEAM-UP takes place before ROGUE #7. This is pretty much immutable. 

* Captain America and Wolverine appear in MARVEL TEAM-UP #10, where they meet up for Avengers-related business. Therefore MARVEL TEAM-UP #10 takes place after NEW AVENGERS #1-6. (Issues #8-10 all take place simultaneously, showing the same period of time from the perspectives of different characters.) 

* Although the Silver Samurai has reverted to villainy by the time of ROGUE #7, it isn't public knowledge. Therefore he can't be imprisoned for any crime until after ROGUE #12. 

* According to NEW AVENGERS #11, the Silver Samurai was one of the villains who escaped the Raft in NEW AVENGERS #1-3. Since he was in jail as a known criminal, this must take place after ROGUE #12. 

* But that's impossible, because if ROGUE #7-12 take place before the New Avengers are formed, then Sunfire is crippled or dead before he appears in MARVEL TEAM-UP #8-10. 

I have to admit that this is the sort of continuity error where I have sympathy with Marvel, since it takes six paragraphs to demonstrate, and involves cross referencing three different titles edited by three different people and sharing no common creators. Nonetheless, it plainly doesn't work, so something's going to have to give. 

Possible options:- 

* In the face of all logic, the Silver Samurai somehow manages to get himself arrested and thrown into jail before ROGUE #7, and neither Sunfire nor Rogue knows about it. This stretches credibility beyond breaking point, in my view. 

* Sunfire gets better awfully quickly and appears in MARVEL TEAM-UP. Barring a later story which makes this viable, we can ignore this for now. 

* MARVEL TEAM-UP #10 is wrong in claiming that the Avengers are together. Strictly speaking this isn't relevant to the plot (such as it is), but it does mean losing pages of dialogue, so that really isn't an option. 

* NEW AVENGERS #11 is wrong in claiming that the Samurai broke out of prison in NEW AVENGERS #1. He actually escapes at some later point. This requires a line or so of dialogue to be ignored, but nothing that can't be written off as an error. In principle, however, that would allow MARVEL TEAM-UP and ROGUE to take place in the apparently lengthy gap between NEW AVENGERS #10-11. 

I prefer the last explanation - subject, of course, to the possibility that later parts of this storyline may pose difficulties with it. For plot purposes, though, it would seem to make no difference which prison the Samurai broke out of. The point is simply that he was out of circulation for a while, but now he's back and making another move on the Japanese underworld.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Oct 2005 10:53 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
* NEW AVENGERS #11 is wrong in claiming that the Samurai broke out of prison in NEW AVENGERS #1. He actually escapes at some later point. This requires a line or so of dialogue to be ignored, but nothing that can't be written off as an error. 
<<<

I haven't read NEW AVENGERS #11, but how is the claim made? 

a. Do we see the event? 

b. Is it stated editorially, in a caption (I know that's not very likely)? 

c. Is it stated by a character, either parenthetically, or in a flashback? 

Judging by your comment that it requires eliminating dialog, I would guess (c). Is it possible that we don't have to ignore the dialog, per se, but rather to declare it an error, not by editorial, but by the character making the claim? 


watching: tennessee v. mississippi

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Posted: 01 Oct 2005 11:25 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Dialogue, albeit quite a lot of it. It's a scene of Cap trying to enlist Daredevil. Skipping past the usual Bendis repetitions... 

Cap: "Kenuichio Harada ... He was one of the 42 powered criminals who escaped from that maximum security prison riot wefound ourselves involved in last month... Keniuchio Harada was brought to the Raft that very day for, according toreports, international crimes invlving his cousin Sunfire. He escaped the Raft during the riot and got on a private plane to Japan the same night." 

Pretty unequivocal. But the fact of it being that prison break, rather than some other one, is largely immaterial to the plot.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Oct 2005 11:58 am    
By Col_Fury

Isn't Marvel going to put out a handbook-style one-shot that lists all of the characters that escaped from the Raft? In light of A4 11, it seems likely that Silver Samurai would be included in that... 

Here's some silly options: 

*The Japanese government realizes they made a mistake in 'firing' Sunfire, can't find him, so they build a Sunfire robot. 

Sunfire in MTU3 8 referred to his previous fight with the Skrull guy, so unless he kept his experiences onhand to be downloaded later, this one can't really work. However, after Sunfire is defeated in MTU3 9, we don't see any flesh-parts anywhere. His costume isn't tattered much. 

*Sunfire gets robotic legs, regains his powers & memories. 

I'm not sure how Sunfire could get his powers back, because Rogue permenantly absorbed his powers. The last time she did that was to Carol Danvers, who couldn't get them back.(she was powerless & had amnesia for quite a while) Unless Rogue's powers have changed, I don't see how Sunfire's case would be different from Carol's. But if he were able to, he'd still need some new legs. 

Neither of these can be supported by anything in the books, I'm just brainstorming here.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 09:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Damn it -- I should have caught that! You're right -- the Tokyo arc in MTU3 #7-13 occurs while Sunfire is still alive -- and also after A4 #1. Crap.  
<<<

Dagnabbit...I should've caught that too. Amazing what I'll conveniently "forget" to prevent a huge continuity impossibility from driving me insane. 

I hate to keep pulling this "wait and see" line...but maybe (just maybe...) A4 12-13 will give us more clues and provide an out. Will Sunfire show up? Will Silver Samurai prove to be a plant by SHIELD (unbeknownst to the Avengers) to ferret out the re-emerging Hand/Hydra team-up as a follow-up to the whole "Enemy of State/Agent of SHIELD" arcs in W3? Who knows...since the next story arc in A4 relates to SHIELD anyway. In this oh-so-convenient scenario, the real Harada is still a good guy, prior to Blindspot's messing with his head. 

Yeah...that's the ticket. I'm sure A4 12-13 will explain that Harada's working for SHIELD. Yeah...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Oct 2005 01:49 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Just to complicate matters further, Nick Fury turns up at the tail end of MARVEL TEAM-UP #13, which prevents that scene from happening between SECRET WAR #4 and NEW AVENGERS #11. Fortunately, it seems to be possible to break MTU 13 in two (rather awkwardly). 

At the moment, I'm working on the assumption that, for continuity purposes, the Silver Samurai was not an escapee from the Raft, and that Cap's simply mistaken on that point. I should add that I don't honestly care what the upcoming "profiles of Raft escapees" book has to say on the subject, since reconciling the stories takes priority over secondary sources. 

This gives us the following possible sequence of events. 

* SECRET WAR, or shortly after: Nick Fury displaced as head of SHIELD. 

* NEW AVENGERS #1-6: The Raft prison break occurs, and the new Avengers are formed. 

* NEW AVENGERS #7-10: Shortly after that, the Avengers deal with the Sentry and recruit him onto the team. 

* MARVEL TEAM-UP #7-13(pt1): Various heroes fight the Ringmaster in New York, while simultaneously Titannus beats up Sunfire and sets about trashing Tokyo. In due course the heroes finally show up in Tokyo to fight and defeat Titannus. (NB: Even the internal timeline of this story is awfully screwy, since Wolverine is in New York in issues #7-10 - while Titannus is attacking Japan - and yet he turns up in Tokyo of his own accord on the grounds that he was already there. Apparently the heroes take an awfully long time to respond, for some reason - something even Titannus comments on.) 

* ROGUE #7-12: Blindspot reverses the Silver Samurai's personality to an earlier point in time, and he becomes a villain again. He allies with Lady Deathstrike in an attempt to seize power over the Japanese underworld, and fights Rogue. During this storyline, Sunfire loses his legs in battle with Lady Deathstrike and apparently dies (though the body disappears). 

* The Silver Samurai is imprisoned in America and immediately escapes. 

* NEW AVENGERS #11: The Avengers and Ronin investigate the Samurai's activities in Japan. 

* Unpublished story: Nick Fury regains control of SHIELD. 

* MARVEL TEAM-UP #13(pt2): The heroes who fought Titannus gather on the Helicarrier for a debriefing with Nick Fury, and Spider-Man and Wolverine interrogate Iron Man. 

It occurs to me that there's one other possible solution to this problem - dismantle the scenes in MTU3 7-13 and take them drastically out of order, with all the Titannus/Japan stuff coming first, before SECRET WAR and before the Avengers even form (thus allowing Sunfire to go on to appear in ROGUE #7-12 and enabling the Silver Surfer to be imprisoned and escape from the Raft in NEW AVENGERS #1-3); and leave the Ringmaster stuff to take place at a much later stage, once the Avengers are up and running. 

I'm not wildly enthusiastic about re-sequencing a comic to quite that degree, but as noted above, the internal timeline of MTU3 7-13 is blatantly defective in its own right even before any other book gets near it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 09:02 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

NEW AVENGERS #12 goes some way to unscrambling this problem. According to this story, the Samurai was *not* in fact arrested for actual crimes, but simply hauled off a plane by SHIELD on some dodgy pretext, and secretly slung into jail. The Avengers claimed otherwise last issue, but then they're working from SHIELD files, and SHIELD are corrupt. 

Thus, it *is* possible that the Samurai gets captured by SHIELD, thrown into the Raft, escapes, and returns to Tokyo, all in circumstances where either Sunfire and the general public aren't aware of it, or where Sunfire simply doesn't believe the allegations made against him. This would allow the current storyline to take place before ROGUE. 

Much of the issue consists of Viper telling the Samurai that he should reclaim control of the Tokyo underworld, and the Samurai looking a bit bemused and sceptical. It's actually a little unclear whether the Samurai has reverted to villainy at this point (although that seems to be the implication), but he can still be restored by Blindspot, then appear in NEW AVENGERS, and then go on to appear in ROGUE. On that basis, the plan presented to him in this storyline could actually serve as the inspiration for what he does in ROGUE. 

Of course, the remaining issue could still throw a spanner in the works. 

As for Nick Fury: while the continuity is a mess, I think it's fairly safe to say at this point that Nick Fury gets his job back in the end, since he's now got a title where he's in control of SHIELD. So we don't necessarily have to force all his appearance back before SECRET WAR #1.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Dec 2005 02:28 am    
By Col_Fury

New Avengers 13 clears up the Silver Samurai mess for us. He is still a good guy, so these issues can still occur before Rogue 7-12. Also, the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: X-Men 2005 clarifies something else. In Sunfire's entry: 

Quote: 
>>>
Sunfire survived this encounter and soon after accepted an offer from Xavier to join the X-Corporation, a global mutant search and rescue operation, in its Mumbai, India headquarters. Still acting as protector of Japan, Sunfire encountered the alien Titannus, who sought to forcibly recruit Earth's heroes into an army to wage intergalactic war. Titannus easily defeated Sunfire, and then attacked Tokyo, resulting in several of Earth's heroes teaming up to defeat him. Later, Sunfire was implicated in Clan Yashida's criminal activities and his status as Japan's protector was suspended. Sunfire sought to clear his name and joined with Rogue to oppose... Lady Deathstrike... Deathstrike severed Sunfire's legs... etc 
<<<

So these two bits would give us: 
A4 11-13 
MTU3 7-13 
Rogue 7-12 

Also concerning MTU3, here's something from X-23's entry in the same handbook, paraphrased: 

Quote: 
>>>
After aiding the X-Men agaisnt Parisi's super-strong mutant enforcer Geech, X-23 fled the scene. She later returned to help the X-Men save victims of a car accident, after which she was enrolled at the X-Men's Xavier Institute. 
X-23 quickly became very protective of Wolverine, attacking... Bishop after he felled Wolverine during a training session. She also took to observing Wolverine on the mansion's security monitors. During one such viewing, an anomalous energy spike prompted X-23 to investigate. Encountering Spider-Man at the source... the pair ultimately teamed up... arrival of Captain America and... Black Widow... 
X-23 then secretly followed Wolverine on his investigation of strange activity in the Canadian Rockies. Ambushed by the Hauk'ka, evolved Saurians from the Savage Land... etc 
<<<

This would give us: 
UX 450-451 
X 165 
MTU3 1-6 
UX 455-456 

The Wolverine/Bishop fight leads directly into the Canadian Rockies thing, so the 'one such viewing' mentioned here must take place before the Wolverine/Bishop training session. 

Putting the two together gives us this frame for MTU3, and more or less, A4: 
UX 450-451 
X 165 
MTU3 1-6 
UX 455-456 
A4 11-13 
MTU3 7-13 
Rogue 7-12 
X 171-174 

I'm going to my basement to re-arrange my X-Books now.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Dec 2005 09:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So these two bits would give us: 
A4 11-13 
MTU3 7-13 
Rogue 7-12 
<<<


Well, technically, those two bits give you: 
A4 11-13 
ROGUE3 7-12 
-- and -- 
M/TU3 7-13 
ROGUE3 7-12 

but not necessarily 
A4 11-13 
M/TU3 7-13 

It's Nick Fury's presumed chronology that gives us that last bit. 


Quote: 
>>>
Putting the two together gives us this frame for MTU3, and more or less, A4: 
UX 450-451 
X 165 
MTU3 1-6 
UX 455-456 
A4 11-13 
MTU3 7-13 
Rogue 7-12 
X 171-174 
<<< 


Well, I'm on the right track. The only difference is that I've placed M/TU3 1-6 after UX 456, not before UX 455. Given the Handbook reference to the chronology of X-23, I'm going to have to re-evaluate my placement of M/TU3 1-6 and also the JUBILEE series, which ties into it. 

Thanks for posting these clues, Col_Fury.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Dec 2005 12:15 pm    
By jephyork
Director

MTU3 #1-6, featuring Wolverine and X-23 at the mansion, CAN'T go "after UX #456" ... unless by that you meant that you had also placed them after the start of UX #460. Wolverine goes to Canada with X-23 in #455 and goes missing between #455-456. X-23 goes from Canada to the Savage Land in #456 and doesn't return home until #460, at which point Logan has been brainwashed by Hydra. His status is listed as "resolved" in the break midway through #460. 

I don't know what your personal calendar currently looks like, but the last thing I remember deciding on here was that MTU3 #1-6 did indeed occur before UX #455 -- and therefore before W3 #20-31, and therefore before the founding of the New Avengers. 

It's good that the Handbook confirms this placement, because now we know how to treat the could-go-either-way Spidey-as-an-Avenger references in MTU3 #6 -- ignore 'em. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Dec 2005 10:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It's good that the Handbook confirms this placement, because now we know how to treat the could-go-either-way Spidey-as-an-Avenger references in MTU3 #6 -- ignore 'em.  
<<<

Sure looks that way.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 2

Posted: 02 Dec 2005 11:45 pm    Post subject: A 72-FB     
By Dhall

Rick Jones 
CM 17 
CM 18 
CM 19 
**A 72-FB 
A 72 
CM 20 
CM 21 

Captain Marvel 
CM 19 
**A 72-FB 
A 72 
CM 20 
CM 21 

Fury, Nick 
IM 18 
NFAOS 15 
**A 72-FB 
A 72 
CA 120 
CA 121 

A 72-FB: Rick Jones stakes out Furys apartment, hoping to join SHIELD. He surprises Fury (pretending to be Scorpio) and he slams his wrists together, to be replaced by Captain Marvel. Marvel and Fury fight, but Fury escapes, dropping a vital piece of evidence to Scorpios plans.

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 12:23 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man: The Mutant Agenda
By zeus

Was the Spider-Man comic book/newspaper strip in continuity?

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Posted: 03 Dec 2005 12:51 pm    
By Dhall

The comic book is. The newspaper strip would presumably be in the newspaper strip continuity, if anyone keeps track of such things. 

Dave

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Posted: 03 Dec 2005 01:23 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yep -- this wasn't an actual crossover with the newspaper strip, it was a perfectly normal Spider-Man miniseries that was published at the same time that the newspaper strip was telling a very similar (but not word-for-word identical) story. 

#1-3 are presumably canon, and #0 is essentially an empty scrapbook. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 03:28 pm    Post subject: Secret War #5
By Somebody

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/SecretWar/BendisSW05Pre.htm 

Quote: 
>>>
Well, dont get attached to it, because the delay has allowed Bendis to shift things slightly. 

[...] 

This story is officially happening right now. It happened just two weeks before New Avengers started and the Avengers have only been together a couple of weeks Marvel time, hence the missing Fury and hints of such. For those who hung in their with us, and goddamn am I grateful, I have taken extra care to making sure the story pays off in the pages of New Avengers and beyond. In fact issue #14 of New Avengers pours right out of Secret War. And as is my way, if you haven't read either you'll be fine, but if you read both you should be pretty pleased. 
<<<

Rejoice or fear. U-Decide.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 03:46 pm    
By Col_Fury

At least he put it where I was thinking it would go, more or less. Honestly, where else could it go? 

It's funny, Madame Hydra made a comment that without Fury, SHIELD became corrupt & fell apart, etc. Now that Secret War occurs so closely to the start of New Avengers, SHIELD became corrupt almost immediately after Fury left. 

Now that we have this information, I'm wondering if we need to wait for New Avengers to catch up with HoM now,(which won't be until A4 16) before we can start nailing down appearances? Or if Paul B. dares to post his new calendar? For myself, I'd rather tie off pre-HoM Marvel before I really start messing around with post-Decimation Marvel...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 07:21 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, at least he didn't put it after the New Avengers formed, (which is what I think we were all fearing)... 

Another paragraph from that interview shows, (kind of) where the original placement for the "present day" sequence in Secret War went: 

Quote: 
>>>
Well, thats the problem with massive delays  everyone knows they will, and Bendis admitted as much. Given the storys starting point in early 2004, the then present day in Secret War #5 was the past of the present day Marvel Universe. That is, the present day of Secret War happened prior to Avengers Disassembled, House of M, and New Avengers  but technically, at least a year after the Authoritative Action arc of Fantastic Four (which wrapped in early 2004 and saw Dr. Doom deposed as the leader of that country, as the Secret War itself happened a year prior to the present day in Secret War.). Got it? 
<<<

"At least a year after 'Authoritative Action'"?!? I didn't think it occured that late after that FF arc...that sounds like a bit of a stretch...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 16 Nov 2005 07:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 07:26 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Now that we have this information, I'm wondering if we need to wait for New Avengers to catch up with HoM now,(which won't be until A4 16) before we can start nailing down appearances? Or if Paul B. dares to post his new calendar? 
<<<


Well, A4 16 is just around the corner, as is the end of Bendis' run on Daredevil. I for one would really like a clear indication of what falls into the "Pre-HoM" catagory, and what falls afterwords. I mean, since the current Pulse, New Avengers, and Daredevil story arcs are all running pretty well alongside one another, then that would mean they are all Pre-HoM, right? It's only the X books which are now clearly after the HoM. 

And does "The Other" in the Spiderman books occur after HoM? 


Quote: 
>>>
For myself, I'd rather tie off pre-HoM Marvel before I really start messing around with post-Decimation Marvel... 
<<<

Agreed.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 08:10 pm    
By Col_Fury

"The Other" is post-HoM, at least according to all the promotional materials. And that's a good point about the current storylines in progress, like Captain America, Daredevil, etc. Sigh... 

Secret War has to happen after 'Authoritative Action', but a year? I think I'll take that with a grain of salt, even if it is mentioned in Secret War 5.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 10:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Oookay!!! I have SECWAR as one of the last significant things to occur prior to A4 1, so that's good...real good. I'm not sure how much stock to put in Bendis' "two weeks before" statement outside of references in the books themselves, but I have SECWAR 5 a mere five days (the week) before the beginning of A4 1, counting on Cage healing up quickly. 

I could move SECWAR back a bit more to make the "two weeks" comment stick, but then I run into some problems with the SECWAR flashbacks not occurring exactly a year before. I'll wait and see. 

And, yes, it does look like A4 14 will restore Nick to his position as head of SHIELD, which is what I'm counting on considering his many post-A4 1 appearances in other titles. 

BTW, New Thunderbolts is now happening post-HOM. Toxin, too, if temporal references are to be believed. And I'm thinking the current Iron Man storyline and the last Punisher storyline are post-HOM.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 11:36 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Solicits for Pulse #11-14 call Jessica's baby "the first child born into the post-HoM world". That, plus the fact that Pulse #10 was the HoM crossover, seem to indicate that Pulse is now post-HoM. 

And for our purposes, all that the statement "Secret War takes place a year after Authoritative Action" needs to mean to us, is that the "one year ago" flashback in SECWAR takes place "shortly after" Authoritative Action. Which it should. 

I get the feeling that the "one year" gap in SECWAR is now longer than the one-year gap in DD2, and encompasses it. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 01:58 pm    
By rhod

Q: Considering Bendis's usual approach to time, is the 'one year' now: 
a) about 6 weeks 
b) 6 months 
c) 17 1/2 years? 

Answers on a postcard....

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 08:34 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

d) All of the above.

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 09:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thus the huge grain of salt I carry when I hear him say (especially not even as an in-story reference) that SECWAR 5 occurs "two weeks" before A4 1. As long as A4 1 follows closely on the heels of SECWAR 5 and Cage is allowed enough time to recuperate I think we should be fine. And that doesn't need to be long since one of Cage's superhuman powers is "faster than normal recovery time from injury or trauma" (Official Handbook Deluxe Edition).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 12:24 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Solicits for Pulse #11-14 call Jessica's baby "the first child born into the post-HoM world". That, plus the fact that Pulse #10 was the HoM crossover, seem to indicate that Pulse is now post-HoM. 
<<<


And since the current story arc in Daredevil seems to be running alongside Pulse 11-14, that would put the current arc after HoM... 

Now we're just waiting on the New Avengers title itself to catch up to HoM... 

And what about the current storylines in Captain America and Fantastic Four? "Pre" or "After"?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 12:59 am    
By Col_Fury

Captain America 10 was a HoM tie-in, so does that mean #11 is post-HoM? I would say yes. There's no reference to how much time has passed between issues 9 & 11, it could very easily have been enough time for Nick to get booted from SHIELD, the New Avengers to form, & for Nick to get his position back. The plot elements in CA 11 picks up from where it left off(more or less) in CA 9, but that doesn't mean other things couldn't have happened in between. 

As for FF, I had originally assumed that Straczynski's run was all post-HoM, with a large gap between issues 526 & 527. Now that the current story has wrapped up I suppose HoM could fit after FF 532. But with Col. Fury appearing in FF 527, and depending on how quickly A4 14 & 15 happen, and how quickly that leads into HoM, FF 526-532 may still have to be post-HoM. There's been no mention of HoM in FF, which doesn't help or hurt anything. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 04:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
Captain America 10 was a HoM tie-in, so does that mean #11 is post-HoM? I would say yes. 


The normal rules apply: issues of a series take place in publication order unless there are powerful reasons why that can't work. While HOUSE OF M crossovers will be much easier to move than many stories, nonetheless the starting point is that they fall where they fall, even if that's in the middle of a storyline.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 06:38 am    
By Kman00001

Was it just me, or did Fury seem like he was back in charge of SHIELD in Marvel Team-Up #13?

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 07:17 am    
By Andy Holcombe

I think the only place he's not in charge of S.H.I.E.L.D. is in New Avengers and possibly that recent Punisher arc.

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 09:05 am    
By Col_Fury

The current issues of Daredevil also show Fury not in charge of SHIELD, with acting Director Hill in his place. 
Paul O'Brien wrote: 
Quote: 
issues of a series take place in publication order unless there are powerful reasons why that can't work.  

Right. The most recent example of those 'powerful reasons' would be Iceman in Black Panther 8 & 9. BP4 7 was a HoM tie-in, and BP4 8 & 9 was a cross-over with the X-Men where Iceman had his powers. Iceman lost his powers at the end of HoM, so the 'Wild Kingdom' cross-over has to precede HoM, putting BP4 7 after BP4 8 & 9. But like you said Paul, I'd say the normal rules apply to Captain America, and also the Pulse as Jeph mentioned earlier.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 12:52 pm    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
The current issues of Daredevil also show Fury not in charge of SHIELD, with acting Director Hill in his place.  
<<<

Er, is that also true for "the Murdock Papers", the last Bendis DD arc ? (I'm waiting for the trade on this.) Because from what I've gathered here, it ties heavily with the post-HoM PULSE...

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 12:49 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
The current issues of Daredevil also show Fury not in charge of SHIELD, with acting Director Hill in his place.  
<<<

Er, is that also true for "the Murdock Papers", the last Bendis DD arc ? (I'm waiting for the trade on this.) Because from what I've gathered here, it ties heavily with the post-HoM PULSE... 
<<<

To clarify: when Col. Fury says "the current issues" he is indeed referring to the storyline called "the Murdock Papers". 

And yes, if the Pulse and Daredevil occur post HoM, then Fury is still not back in charge of SHIELD at least initially after HoM... 

We're really just going to have to wait a couple more issues in New Avengers and see how Bendis is going to reconcile all of this...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 04:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
And yes, if the Pulse and Daredevil occur post HoM, then Fury is still not back in charge of SHIELD at least initially after HoM... 

We're really just going to have to wait a couple more issues in New Avengers and see how Bendis is going to reconcile all of this... 
<<<

But...but...what about the appearances that Fury puts in presumably between A4 1 and HOM? New X-Men: Hellions #4? Marvel Team-Up v3 #13? Hercules #4-5? Fantastic Four: Foes #3, 6? Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects #4? (I suppose FF 527 is after HOM.) 

Arrrggghhh! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 06:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Captain America 10 was a HoM tie-in, so does that mean #11 is post-HoM? I would say yes. There's no reference to how much time has passed between issues 9 & 11, it could very easily have been enough time for Nick to get booted from SHIELD, the New Avengers to form, & for Nick to get his position back. The plot elements in CA 11 picks up from where it left off(more or less) in CA 9, but that doesn't mean other things couldn't have happened in between.  
<<<


Are you prepared to put many months of time between CA5 9 and 11? Consider this: 

In CA5 1, the issue that kicked off this whole Lukin storyline, we see a newspaper with a headline about the disbanding of the Avengers, a reference to A:FINALE. So what, you say, that paper could have been around for months. Well, consider that in this issue, Cap is downcast and says that "it's just been a rough couple of months." Presumably, the roughness includes Disassembled, which is supposed to occur "three months" (Bendis time, admittedly) before A:FINALE. CA5 1 isn't likely to occur very long after A:FINALE. 

CA5 2-8 occur within days after CA5 1; CA5 8 occurs during the "week" after a flashback in that issue which in turn occurs after CA5 1. CA5 9 occurs during the "week" after CA5 6. So we have CA5 1-9 occurring during a roughly two-week period not long after A:FINALE. 

Now consider the presumed "three months" between A:FINALE and A4 1. (I actually have six months between these events -- a different interpretation of the recap pages in those early A4 issues -- to accommodate the post-Disassembled Halloween of FF 517 and the end-of-school-year tie-in between New X-Men/Hellions and the Sentry story in A4 7-10.) 

Then consider that HOM needs to occur after A4 10. If CA5 11 occurs after HOM, then we have months between CA5 9 and 11. I calculate at least nine months, and the length will depend on Nick Fury's chronology vis-a-vis HOM. 

Temporal references aside, is it believable for the ouster of Fury in SECWAR, the formation of the New Avengers, and the reinstatement of Fury, with all connected events, to occur in the middle of the Winter Soldier storyline? 

I'm inclined (without knowing the repercussions of the conclusion of the Winter Soldier storyline) to place CA5 1-9 and CA5 11-14 many months before HOM and CA5 10. 

BP4 has established the precedent of HOM interrupting publication order, with issues #8 and 9 actually preceding issue #7 (for the sake of Iceman's chronology, as noted). Why not apply this to CA5? Why stretch a storyline for the sake of a principle (publication order) that's already been compromised?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 07:27 pm
By Somebody

For once, I agree with Paul B. The Winter Soldier arc starts before the Avengers reform, it's continuous, occurs over a shortish period of time and has Fury in charge of SHIELD all the way. It's ludicrous to force HoM, which is well after the Avengers reform with all the Fury-related messes, in the midst of this.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 01:56 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
But...but...what about the appearances that Fury puts in presumably between A4 1 and HOM? New X-Men: Hellions #4? Marvel Team-Up v3 #13? Hercules #4-5? Fantastic Four: Foes #3, 6? Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects #4? (I suppose FF 527 is after HOM.) 

Arrrggghhh!  
<<<

Well, to be fair, the only thing we have tying the DD2 76-81 to Pulse 11-14 is one single line by J. Jonah Jameson, (so far anyway). And the only thing we have tying Pulse 11-14 to Post-HoM territory is the fact that they come after Pulse #10, and a solicitation text which reads, "the first child born into the post-HoM world". I'm inclined to disregard solicitation text, (now if it's stated somewhere in the story, that's different). And we seem to be setting up a precident for rearranging the order of HoM issues...maybe Pulse 11-14 is pre HoM after all? We still have a couple more issues in this storyline though...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 03:13 am    
By Col_Fury

In reference to Matt Murdock, JJJ says "The Feds got him. He's going down." Or something very close to that. When Brubacher takes over Daredevil, it's been said that he's picking up the plot threads left over by Bendis. It's very possible that Matt's trial won't even be seen until Bendis leaves the book. If that's the case, "the Murdock Papers" would still be pre-HoM, it's follow-up arc would most likely be post-HoM, & the current Pulse arc would also be post-HoM. Sadly, we'll have to wait three or four months to find out for sure. 

If this is the case, Col. Fury would still be reinstated pre-HoM(most likely in A4 14), allowing for Hercules, Hellions, etc to occur more or less as we're thinking. This would mean that A4 11-13 would take place in between issues/pages of 'the Murdock Papers.' ...Hopefully... 

As for CA5, I'm not entirely prepared to rearrange it's issue order because of poor planning on BP4's part. I'm not decided yet, mind you. 


Quote: 
>>>
Temporal references aside, is it believable for the ouster of Fury in SECWAR, the formation of the New Avengers, and the reinstatement of Fury, with all connected events, to occur in the middle of the Winter Soldier storyline? 
<<<

It would be awkward for so much time to pass between issues, but why not? So far there's been no in story reference to how much time has passed between CA5 9 & 11. However, issue 12(which comes out in a couple of days) may change that. The Red Skull's daughter subplot may give us some clues, or Fury could appear and suggest a placement, or one of the characters could mention the New Avengers forming.(but I doubt it, because Iron Man pops up in issue 13. But then again...) I really hate to say it, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see... at the very least a couple of days. At the most FOUR MONTHS. Sigh...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 08:26 am    
By jephyork
Director

I still believe that PULSE #11-14 occur post-HoM, but the way they refer to Daredevil events is in the *past tense* -- it's possible that "The Murdock papers" already happened, as far as Pulse #12 is concerned. 

In that case, as Col_Fury says, we can place "Murdock Papers" before Fury is (presumably) reinstated in A4 #14, and place it all prior to HoM. Then we can jam all of Fury's pre-HoM/in-charge-of-SHIELD appearances between A4 #14 and HOM #1, and be done with it.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 10:12 am    
By JD

Note also that CAPTAIN UNIVERSE / DAREDEVIL is clearly stated to happen before "The Murdock Papers" (presumably to be able to show Matt still defending cases in court). This would put most of those CU team-ups pre-HOM. 

For X-23, this does not pose much problems. 
For Scorpion II's supporting cast (which appears mostly in CU/X-23), it's a bit more complicated. It's obviously after AMAZING FANTASY #12 (which also featured Fury in charge, by the way), of course. The CU team-ups are however very vague about whether it happens before or after H3 #87 (which is immediatly after HoM). Since Scorpion and her mother do not seem to actually meet in the CU team-ups, the "long time not seen" comment in H3 #87 could still be valid even if the CU team-ups are before HoM. 

Most the placement of the event will probably rest on the Hulk, then. CU/Hulk picks up with him in a remote snowy forest, which would have fit very well between H3 #87 (where he decides to go off Australia) and #88 (where we find him living alone in Canada). However, it could maybe fit elsewhere pre-HoM. I'm not familiar with the wanderings of the Hulk pre-HoM, where was he in that period ?

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 10:51 am    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
For Scorpion II's supporting cast (which appears mostly in CU/X-23), it's a bit more complicated. It's obviously after AMAZING FANTASY #12 (which also featured Fury in charge, by the way), of course. The CU team-ups are however very vague about whether it happens before or after H3 #87 (which is immediatly after HoM). Since Scorpion and her mother do not seem to actually meet in the CU team-ups, the "long time not seen" comment in H3 #87 could still be valid even if the CU team-ups are before HoM. 
<<<

Well, the Hulk issues managed to completely screw up Scorpion's (mum's) timeline - Scorpion's mum is in her late 40s/early 50s at least, given that she spent years as a respected scientist, including winning a Nobel prize, then joined AIM and worked her way to the top there, then add 20 years for Scorpion to gestate and reach 19. And yet she's meant to have had a one-night stand with Bruce Banner when they were both in their teens/early 20s (I completely ignore the fact that PAD apparently wanted Hulk to be Scorpion's dad from that encounter, since that's absolutely impossible on any reading of AF 7-12).

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 11:01 am    
By jephyork
Director

Bruce Banner can't be in his 40's? How old was he when he was designing weapons for the US Govt. and had his origin, "fifteen years" ago? 

The one-night stand could have been when Bruce was a freshman and Monica was in grad school, too. That'd allow her to be several years older than Bruce... 

On the other hand -- *it's Marvel time*. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 12:32 pm    
By garbonzo

Ah yes. This conversation makes me long for the days of the Kang War discussions and the Maximum security debates. Those were the days. 

My vote is that the HoM stories can take place anywhere we want them (with the exception of the Thunderbolts stories and THe Hulk stories which explicitly show the after-effects of House of M. ) 

As for Secret War............... Well, I am still working on that one. But, it seems messed up. Maybe that is what has caused all the problems with Jessica's pregnancy? 

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 02:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, let's see if I've followed this discussion properly... 

1) The Captain Universe issues are all supposed to occur around the same time. Right? 

2) CU/DD must occur before DD2 76-81. 

3) DD2 76-81 must occur before A4 14 because Fury is not involved with SHIELD during the DD2 story arc. 

Question: must all of DD2 76-81 occur after DD's appearance in A4 11-FB? How does that appearance in A4 tie in to the DD2 story arc? (Looks like a Kevin analysis is eagerly anticipated.  ) 

Moving on... 

4) CU/X-23 must occur after AAF2 12, an issue in which Fury is in charge of SHIELD. 

So if #1, #2, #3, and #4 are all correct, then AAF2 12 must occur before Fury's presumed ouster in SECWAR. (Hey, AAF2 7-12 is another Kevin analysis...  ) 

Moving on again... 

5) H3 87 must occur after HOM. (H3 87...let's see...a Kevin hat trick. We need your help, man.  ) 

If #1-#3 are correct, that also means that CU/H must occur pre-HOM...actually pre-A4 14...not after H3 87. 

Am I on track?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 03:16 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
1) The Captain Universe issues are all supposed to occur around the same time. Right? 
<<<

Well, according to dialogue there are several weeks between CU/H and CU/DD. CU/X-23 seems to be very quickly after CU/DD. And the next two oneshots look like they won't involve most of the players of the first three. 


Quote: 
>>>
4) CU/X-23 must occur after AAF2 12, an issue in which Fury is in charge of SHIELD. 
<<<

Actually, CU/H is also definitely placed after AAF2 12, since we see Scorpion's mother (in shadows) in charge of a completely different project in AIM than she is in AAF. 


Quote: 
>>>
5) H3 87 must occur after HOM. 
<<<

It involves Hulk, Scorpion and Scorpion's mother waking up just after HoM. 
By the way, it is completely inconsistent with HOM 8 and the X-Men titles, in that people wake up where they were at the end of HoM instead of where they were just before HoM. 

Anyway, the key factor here will be the Hulk. Is there some room for him to be in a remote snowy forest pre-HoM ?

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 04:53 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Am I on track? 
<<<

Yes.  


JD wrote: 
>>>
Anyway, the key factor here will be the Hulk. Is there some room for him to be in a remote snowy forest pre-HoM ? 
<<<

Oh, yes. Most definitely. I mean, Bruce is wandering around all the time... 

Also, Scorpion & SHIELD agents are in the Captain Universe one-shots? Now I need to buy these. Man, we really need a SHIELD Watch in the watch forums...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 05:24 pm    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Also, Scorpion & SHIELD agents are in the Captain Universe one-shots? Now I need to buy these. Man, we really need a SHIELD Watch in the watch forums... 
<<<

AIM and Scorpion's mother are the villains of CU/H, CU/DD and CU/X-23. Agent Khanata shows up for two pages in CU/DD. Scorpion and her SHIELD team (including Khanata) make a full-fledged appearance in CU/X-23 (to be fair, it's indicated on the cover). 

Note that Scorpion is horribly mischaracterized in CU/X-23. I hope this interpretation of her as a babbling idiot will not stick.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 06:02 pm    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
Note that Scorpion is horribly mischaracterized in CU/X-23. I hope this interpretation of her as a babbling idiot will not stick. 

Ah, it wasn't just me who thought that then... 

Then again, I thought their Hulk appearances were badly off too.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 07:25 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

JD wrote: 

AIM and Scorpion's mother are the villains of CU/H, CU/DD and CU/X-23. Agent Khanata shows up for two pages in CU/DD. Scorpion and her SHIELD team (including Khanata) make a full-fledged appearance in CU/X-23 (to be fair, it's indicated on the cover). 
 


Dammit, then why didn't Marvel advertise they were going to be in those one-shots?!? Now I've got to get them too....  

Paul, I'm going to finish up my analysis of Amazing Fantasy #7-12 this week if it KILLS me...the holiday weekend should help me out in giving me some extra time... 

After that review, I'll do a review for H3 87. H3 83-86 and H3 87 serve pretty well as a sequel to AF2 #7-12. After that, then I'll probably hit Daredevil vs. Punisher, (because it definently occurs prior to "the Murdock Papers"). 

And yes, the instant DD2 76-81 finishes up in January, I'll crank out a speedy review for it, (it seems a lot of stuff hinges on it's completion).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 07:30 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
By the way, it is completely inconsistent with HOM 8 and the X-Men titles, in that people wake up where they were at the end of HoM instead of where they were just before HoM. 

Anyway, the key factor here will be the Hulk. Is there some room for him to be in a remote snowy forest pre-HoM ? 
<<<

Where do you get that people woke up where they were prior to HoM? Emma Frost and Wolverine wake up on the front lawn of the Xavier's institute, and Spiderman wakes up in bed. All of them were in Genosha right before the world went to white... 

And yes, Banner/Hulk pre-HoM has been roaming the world. So certainly, he can show up in a snowy forest. He was in London in H3 82. And he was on Nightmare's Island, (somewhere in the ocean) before that.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 09:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin wrote: 
>>>
And yes, the instant DD2 76-81 finishes up in January, I'll crank out a speedy review for it, (it seems a lot of stuff hinges on it's completion). 
<<<

Much appreciated, Kevin, as are all the analyses you're working on. Tell us, I know the DD2 storyline is still going on, but can you see a logical spot for Daredevil's appearance in A4 11-FB (the scene in which he recommends Ronin for the mission to Japan) yet?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 10:54 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Much appreciated, Kevin, as are all the analyses you're working on. Tell us, I know the DD2 storyline is still going on, but can you see a logical spot for Daredevil's appearance in A4 11-FB (the scene in which he recommends Ronin for the mission to Japan) yet? 
<<<

I'm still working on the assumption that there is a nice chunk of time passing between DD2 75 and 76. That chunk of time allows for such things like Daredevil vs. Punisher, and Daredevil's appearances in New Avengers, (and possibly DD's appearance in the Captain Universe one-shots). 

I'm of the opinion that his appearance in A4 11-FB occurs just prior to DD2 76-81, but we'll see..."the Murdock Papers" is another Bendis storyline that's unwinding slow, I don't think we'll know the full impact on DD's chronology till January.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 07:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
I'm of the opinion that his appearance in A4 11-FB occurs just prior to DD2 76-81, but we'll see..."the Murdock Papers" is another Bendis storyline that's unwinding slow, I don't think we'll know the full impact on DD's chronology till January. 


Matt's dialog in A4 11-FB goes like this: "I have a target on my back...I have six federal task forces assigned to bring me down. They want to throw me in jail!" Is this the case before DD2 76 or does A4 11-FB need to occur sometime during the DD2 76-81 story arc? 

BTW, how much MU time is the DD2 76-81 story arc taking so far?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 07:53 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

There's been a task force after him since pretty much the time he was outed. The new White Tiger is a member of it. The point of "Murdock Papers" is that they might finally be about to get their hands on some hard evidence.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 10:27 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Matt's dialog in A4 11-FB goes like this: "I have a target on my back...I have six federal task forces assigned to bring me down. They want to throw me in jail!" Is this the case before DD2 76 or does A4 11-FB need to occur sometime during the DD2 76-81 story arc? 
<<<

It's the case before DD2 76 as well as after. DD2 76 onwards just brings the "I'm being persecuted by the Feds!" plotline to the forefront. 


Quote: 
>>>
BTW, how much MU time is the DD2 76-81 story arc taking so far? 
<<<

Like most Bendis story arcs, very little time is passing over the course of the arc. We're up to issue 78 now, and only 24 hours has passed, (at most). In fact, the more I think about it, Matt's comments in A4 11-FB pretty well have to occur before "the Murdock Papers", as Matt spends the first part of "the Murdock Papers" seemingly no longer concerned about the FBI, and he spends the last part of the Murdock Papers, (so far anyway) on the run from the law, (and thus, wouldn't be caught in Captain America's presence). 

The short version: 

Matt spends the first part of "Murdock Papers" in blissful ignorance, seeing that the press is no longer interested in him, and thinking he dodged the bullet, (that the FBI no longer is after him). What he doesn't know is that Wilson Fisk and the Feds have struck a deal, for Fisk to provide evidence that Matt is Daredevil. 

The press gets wind that Wilson Fisk has evidence that Murdock is Daredevil. When Matt finally hears about this, (he's the last to know), he changes into Daredevil, and races off to try and destroy the evidence the Kingpin has against him, before the Feds can get their hands on it. And that's where we are at now in the storyline. Daredevil is now basically on the run from the law. 

Maybe we'll know more when the next issue of Daredevil comes out this Wednesday.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 09:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Like most Bendis story arcs, very little time is passing over the course of the arc. We're up to issue 78 now, and only 24 hours has passed, (at most).  
<<<

Good...good. The less time the better. If it's explicit in this story arc that Nick Fury is not with SHIELD, then DD2 76-81 will need to fit between A3 11-FB and A3 14. And I suppose we'll get a clue about the size of the gap between A4 13 and 14 next month. Please keep us posted about any more clues in this week's DD2. Thanks, Kevin.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 11:14 pm    
By Col_Fury

Yeah, it's explicit. Black Widow tries to get Director Hill to help Matt out of his mess with the feds, but she refuses, making mention that the Widow had ties with Nick, not herself, and that she's in charge now.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 01:40 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Please keep us posted about any more clues in this week's DD2. 


Just read DD2 79. Probably 30 minutes tops passes during the course of this issue. So you're still looking at probably little more than 24 hours having passed since the start of this storyline. 

Bullseye makes an appearance, and is in his "movie" costume again, (in other words, he's out of his costume, with the bullseye tattoo on his forehead, exactly like he appeared back in his last DD appearance in DD2 49). Question: I didn't buy the recent "Bullseye: Greatest Hits" and the current "Punisher vs. Bullseye". Could someone who has bought those miniseries tell me if they are set in the modern day at all, and if they feature Bullseye in his old costume, or in his "movie" costume? And has he appeared anywhere else besides that in the last couple of years? I'm trying to make sure Bullseye's appearances line up... 

Also Paladin makes an appearance, and he's helping out the FBI, (this is after his recent appearance in New Xmen: Hellions miniseries, I would presume).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 01:51 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I also just finished reading "DD vs. Punisher #6" which brings that miniseries to a close. It ends with the Punisher in prison, recovering from wounds sustained in a fight against Daredevil/gangsters/police. He really took a hammering in this one, (but he always does). Obviously, he escapes, (he has to, for the purposes of the regular Punisher MAX comic book). Still, it appears he is in the prison hospital for a pretty lengthy period of time... 

We do know pretty much where this miniseries goes now: It happens prior to DD2 76-81, going by a line about the Jackal making a bid for the Kingpin's throne. The "DD vs. Punisher" miniseries itself says similar things, mentioning the Kingpin being overthrown, and thus there is a power vacuum. Problems I see are still that Punisher appears in his old costume, (but that's easily ignored, I suppose), and that there is no reference to the public knowing that Matt and Daredevil are one and the same, (I simply believe it wasn't a topic the writer of this miniseries wished to explore). 

So in the end, no, it doesn't line up with the Punisher MAX title...but I still believe it's set in the present day. A review for this miniseries is coming soon, (my Amazing Fantasy analysis is almost done).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 01:57 am    
By Col_Fury

I haven't had a chance to get to the comic shop yet, so I don't have Bullseye vs Punisher. But in Bullseye: Greatest Hits, he does have the target carved on his forehead. As far as I could tell, the 'current day' portions are relatively current with when they were published. Was Bullseye incarcerated after DD2 49? Or was he in prison just because? 

Paladin was working for Col. Fury & SHIELD in Hellions, so working for the FBI here isn't a stretch. However, 'the Murdock Papers' takes place while Fury isn't with SHIELD,(between A41 & A4 14 or 15) & Hellions takes place after he's been re-instated.(presudemably after A4 14 or 15) So I guess 'the Murdock Papers' takes place before Hellions.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 12:06 pm    
By rhod

Concerning the end of DDvP, (I haven't got it to hand at the moment so I can't check if this works), I wonder if it can take place immediately before 'The Cell'?

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 05:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin wrote: 
>>>
Question: I didn't buy the recent "Bullseye: Greatest Hits" and the current "Punisher vs. Bullseye". Could someone who has bought those miniseries tell me if they are set in the modern day at all, and if they feature Bullseye in his old costume, or in his "movie" costume? 
<<<

I have issues #2 and #3 of Bullseye: Greatest Hits." In the "current" scenes in both issues he's seen in prison with the bullseye tattoo on his forehead and no costume. I have this series in the big gap between DD2 75 and 76.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 08:38 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Paladin was working for Col. Fury & SHIELD in Hellions, so working for the FBI here isn't a stretch. However, 'the Murdock Papers' takes place while Fury isn't with SHIELD,(between A41 & A4 14 or 15) & Hellions takes place after he's been re-instated.(presudemably after A4 14 or 15) So I guess 'the Murdock Papers' takes place before Hellions. 
<<< 


Are we certain "Hellions" takes place after "Murdock Papers"? Remember "Murdock Papers" ties in with Pulse 11-14, which we're still unsure where to place... 

I dunno, I'm starting to get dizzy thinking about it all.  


Quote: 
>>>
In the "current" scenes in both issues he's seen in prison with the bullseye tattoo on his forehead and no costume. 
<<<

Thanks, Paul B. and Col. Fury. Please keep me informed about Bullseye vs. Punisher, if either of you pick it up. 


rhod wrote: 
>>>
Concerning the end of DDvP, (I haven't got it to hand at the moment so I can't check if this works), I wonder if it can take place immediately before 'The Cell'? 
<<<

First and foremost, I'm pretty sure we declared "the Cell" non-canon. Too many revisions to the Punisher's origin. 

Beyond that, "the Cell" states that Frank simply turned himself into the police, so that he could get inside prison. "DD vs. Punisher" has Punisher beaten to a pulp and hauled off to jail.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 09:19 pm    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
I dunno, I'm starting to get dizzy thinking about it all.   
<<<

Same here, man. 


Quote: 
>>>
Thanks, Paul B. and Col. Fury. Please keep me informed about Bullseye vs. Punisher, if either of you pick it up.  
<<<

No problem. And yes, I'll be buying Bullseye vs Punisher.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 10:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Are we certain "Hellions" takes place after "Murdock Papers"? Remember "Murdock Papers" ties in with Pulse 11-14, which we're still unsure where to place...  
<<<

My impression is that we've been discussing this order: 

DDVP 
DD2 76-81 
A 14-15 
HELLIONS 3-4 
HOM 
PULSE 12-13
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 11:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

"Murdock Papers" doesn't "tie in" with PULSE #11-14 -- the Pulse arc mentions the events of "Murdock Papers" in the past tense. Meaning, DD2 #76-81 likely occurs before PULSE #11-14. 

So there's nothing stopping Hellions and HOM from occuring between them. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Nov 2005 09:58 am    
By John Simons

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
But in Bullseye: Greatest Hits, he does have the target carved on his forehead. As far as I could tell, the 'current day' portions are relatively current with when they were published. Was Bullseye incarcerated after DD2 49? Or was he in prison just because? 
. 
<<<

Aaagh! This is my bad. I volunteered to analyze this mini before it even came out, yet now it's about a year later and the issues are still sitting at the bottom of a pile of junk on my desk. I will definitely do them tonight after I see the little 'uns off to bed. 

As to the question at hand, it is true that Bullseye is in prison at the start of the mini, but along the way we learn the means by which he was incarcerated, shortly before the story started. In other words, Bullseye was at large before the events of the mini went into motion, and he is loose again when the mini ends. 

Other than that, the only real chronology clue for him, as already mentioned, is he has the bullseye scar carved into his forehead.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 25 Nov 2005 01:54 pm
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
"Murdock Papers" doesn't "tie in" with PULSE #11-14 -- the Pulse arc mentions the events of "Murdock Papers" in the past tense. Meaning, DD2 #76-81 likely occurs before PULSE #11-14. 

So there's nothing stopping Hellions and HOM from occuring between them. 
<<<


Ah yes, I see...I had read it to mean that it was happening alongside the events of the Pulse arc, but I suspect you're right. Still, a lot depends on what Daredevil's status is going to be by the end of the "Murdock Papers" story arc. Will he be a fugitive on the run from the law? Or will Bendis "put the genie back in the bottle" as he has mentioned doing in interviews...in other words, will there be some sort of return to the old status quo by the end of this arc? 

We won't know till January...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 04:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

For what it's worth, preview art for upcoming issues of PUNISHER VS BULLSEYE shows Bullseye in costume. Evidently he goes back and forth on whether to wear the costume depending on his mood (and, I suppose, the extent to which he cares about being easily spotted).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Dec 2005 03:26 pm    
By Somebody

Seeming bad news for anyone who wants Fury reinstated before HoM. With reference to the current Wolverine arc, Daniel Way mentions... 

>>>
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6230 
With Professor Xavier and Nick Fury (two people who might be able to explain Logan's erratic behavior) out of circulation 
<<<

And of course, this Wolverine arc spins out of HoM...

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Posted: 03 Dec 2005 06:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

"Seeming," indeed. We don't necessarily know why Fury's "out of circulation."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Dec 2005 08:39 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Going back and rereading some posts in this thread, everyone seems to be hinging their bets on Nick Fury regaining control of SHIELD in A4 #14 and 15, (the "Spider-woman is revealed a traitor" story arc). Has this been revealed in a Previews or an interview somewhere? I was thinking Fury wouldn't be reinstated for some time to come...(which means, Fury could still not be in charge of SHIELD for a good chunk of time post "House of M"...)
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 12:23 am    
By Col_Fury

The interview linked to at the beginning of this subject had this: 
>>>
It happened just two weeks before New Avengers started and the Avengers have only been together a couple of weeks Marvel time, hence the missing Fury and hints of such. For those who hung in their with us, and goddamn am I grateful, I have taken extra care to making sure the story pays off in the pages of New Avengers and beyond. In fact issue #14 of New Avengers pours right out of Secret War. And as is my way, if you haven't read either you'll be fine, but if you read both you should be pretty pleased. 
<<<

Secret War pays off in New Avengers? New Avengers 14 pours out of Secret War? We'll find out in a few weeks...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 04:21 am    
By Col_Fury

I finally had a chance to read Punisher vs Bullseye 1, and Bullseye is shown on the last page with the tattoo/scar on his forehead. On the upcoming issues page, he's shown in costume. 

Also, there's a FlashBack for the Punisher from 1981, in a disco where people are doing the Hustle. Since Frank still has a Vietnam themed origin, I'm assuming that this does take place in 1981, which would put this before his appearance in ASM 129... 

Love that sliding timeline. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 5

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 08:12 am    Post subject: Sentinel Squad O*N*E
By Paul O'Brien
Director

These characters, introduced in DECIMATION and the current X-MEN storyline, pose an interesting policy question for the MCP. 

The US government has finally worked out that artificially intelligent Sentinels always go wrong. Instead, the Sentinels currently stationed outside the Xavier Institute have pilots, the Sentinel Squad, who'll shortly get their own miniseries with SENTINEL SQUAD O*N*E. X-MEN #178 identifies the Squad leader as Alexander Lexington, and names two of his colleagues as Briggs and Slayton. A woman pilot with glasses also gets a speaking part. 

Since these guys are clearly going to be recurring characters at least for the duration of the current storyline, we'll need to consider a couple of points. 

1. The Sentinels all look alike, as far as I can tell. Thus, we can't tell who's the pilot in any given appearance. What do we do in cases like X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #1, where a Sentinel guard makes a major appearance, but the pilot is not identified? I'm inclined simply to omit the appearance from everyone's listings, but I'm open to comments. 

2. More prosaically, if a Sentinel turns up on panel, talks, and the pilot is clearly identified, but the art never actually shows the pilot inside the machine, is that an appearance or as a BTS? (I suppose to some extent it depends on whether you view the Sentinel as being a glorified set of armour akin to Iron Man, or as a vehicle, in which case it's the equivalent of seeing a ship and knowing who the captain is - a BTS.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Dec 2005 08:25 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
More prosaically, if a Sentinel turns up on panel, talks, and the pilot is clearly identified, but the art never actually shows the pilot inside the machine, is that an appearance or as a BTS? 
<<<

That would be an actual appearance because of the speaking part. Remember that the policy is that a voice with dialog on the other end of a phone counts as an actual appearance. 

Now, what if the on-panel Sentinel is referred to by the name of the pilot inside, but the pilot/Sentinel doesn't actually speak?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Dec 2005 09:27 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
1. The Sentinels all look alike, as far as I can tell. Thus, we can't tell who's the pilot in any given appearance. What do we do in cases like X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #1, where a Sentinel guard makes a major appearance, but the pilot is not identified? I'm inclined simply to omit the appearance from everyone's listings, but I'm open to comments. 
<<<

I don't see any other practical option but to agree with you. 


watching: cosmos

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 10:39 am    
By Marc-Oliver Frisch

I'd propose giving them an extra listing, like "Unidentified Sentinel Squad member," or some such thing. 

That way, you could acknowledge that they exist, without having to decide which one they may or may not be. 

(Also, and I may be wrong, I think the visuals may come to give a better indication of who's who down the line.)
_________________
Marc-Oliver Frisch 
POPP'D! -- Comikado -- Supercritical 

Updated almost daily.

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 11:08 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sorry, but we don't list chronologies for unidentified characters. If we did, we'd have a whole page, just for unidentified's. 


watching: jetsons

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 12:33 pm    
By Jason Doty

Since all of them are posted on the parimiter of the estate, would'nt all of them get a BTS listing if not identified individualy?

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 01:04 pm    
By shandrakor

I think that would be getting us back into "BTS for every mutant just because the mansion is shown" territory. 

Unless a given Sentinel pilot were known to have effected the story in some way, I don't see a BTS being involved.

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 01:10 pm    
By Jason Doty

I think there are only five, and there presence would be "seen" to get this annotation. They are a "unit" so if one is present an assumption could be made that they are all present. This is the current nature of their assignment. 

This is a tough situation, I think we will have to wait and see how this pans out for identification purposes, but their presence in the recent x-books suggests that they are all present.

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 02:05 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I think there are only five, and there presence would be "seen" to get this annotation. They are a "unit" so if one is present an assumption could be made that they are all present.  
<<<

Not really. The dialogue said that there were only five SENTINELS, but it doesn't follow that there's only five pilots. Since they're guarding the place 24 hours a day, they can't possibly all be there at any one time. So either there's generally fewer than five Sentinels on shift, or a number of pilots are taking turns to operate them.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Dec 2005 09:02 am    
By Chris McCarver

I don't have the issues in front of me, but aren't the new Sentinels crewed by more than one person each (coulda sworn I saw two pilots in one)? 

I guess the best approach would be to list confirmed appearances in their chronologies and update should a flashback or dialogue denote that a certain pilot was present during a previous story.
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Thread 6

Posted: 07 Dec 2005 08:29 am    Post subject: Onslaught early appearance in UX 309
By wolframbane

While doing research on Onslaught, I came upon a possible early appearance for him. In UX 309, which occurs the week following X 25 (Xavier shut down Magneto's mind, prompting Magneto's darkness to enter Xavier's subconcious and creating Onslaught), Xavier has a vivid dream in which he has a discussion with Magnus. The figure of Magnus tells Xavier that he is Xavier's subconcious representation of the embodiment of everything he hates and fears about himself. 

Much later, it is revealed that the darkness from Magneto's mind manifested in Xavier's subconcious, forming Onslaught, an embodiment of all the anger and darkness in Xavier's subconcious. Thus I feel that the appearance of Magnus in UX 309, is possibly an early appearance of Onslaught.

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Thread 7

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 07:54 am    Post subject: HOM reading order?
By Sidewinder

I've gotten behind in my comic reading and I'm trying to figure out if there is a reading order for the House of M miniseries and all of the other associated books. 

Any help would be appreciated.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 08:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Funny you should ask, Sidewinder. I was going to call for a chronological listing of the entire saga once HOM 8 comes out. (That was originally supposed to be this week.) I have about half of the comics set in the HOM reality, but if someone who has all the comics can list the order by title and page/panel range, with brief synopses and character rosters -- perhaps in the analysis forum -- that would be a tremendous help to us all.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 08:56 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

For the most part, the various stories barely interact, so it isn't a major problem. Most of them take place before the characters involved get "awakened"; a few others involve characters who never get awakened, and end with the world being restored to normal. (MUTOPIA X #4, uniquely, actually has the world revert to normal mid-issue.) 

The only serious continuity crunch so far seems to involve Sunfire, who (if I'm remembering this right) is shown both at Magneto's society event in HOUSE OF M itself, and fighting the New Mutants in this week's NEW X-MEN, which would seem to require him to be in Genosha and Japan simultaneously! However, it's not inconceivably that he slipped away from Genosha to deal with the New X-Men, and was taken home by a friendly teleporter - this *is* the House of M, after all, with superpowers around every corner, and since Sunfire's thousands of miles from home, it's entirely plausible that he'd bring a transport-related mutant with him.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 10:38 am    
By Somebody

Genis is a problem too - he's shown attending the gala with Cosmic Awareness for Rogue to absorb in HoM, but only gets it in NTbolts #11 and ends that issue in a coma after nearly ripping the universe apart as the result.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 11:55 am    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
if someone who has all the comics can list the order by title and page/panel range, with brief synopses and character rosters -- perhaps in the analysis forum -- that would be a tremendous help to us all. 
<<<

I've been wanting to do that for several weeks now, so I'm game. 
The only problem I think I will have is for NT 11, which features a lot of characters I've barely heard of. 
I have yet to read this week's crossover titles (NXM 19 & W3 35), but I'll probably catch up with them in the next few days. 


Can I suggest focusing on the actual "House of M world", ie the period between the two reality warps (the first in HOM 1 & MX 1, the second in HOM 7, MX 4, EX 71 and, from what I've gathered, NXM 19) ? 
This way, we don't have to wait for HOM 8 in order to start...

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 12:58 pm    
By JD

By the way, how should I treat the appearances of all those people that are back from the dead after the reality wrap ? For the moment, I'm having a separate "Back from the dead:" section after "Appearances:".

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 01:03 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, there's two ways you can look at the revived characters. One is to say that they're doppelgangers. The other is to say that Wanda has raised the dead (or, if you prefer, yanked their spirits back to Earth). This would suggest staggering levels of power, but then that's kind of the point of the story, and it's certainly consistent with the way Hawkeye was written. On that basis, the dead characters should be treated the same way as any other appearance by ghosts. 

In an interesting, and surely not accidental, scene near the end of NEW X-MEN #19, Magik actually teleports away moments before the second reality warp hits. So it's conceivable that she's in Limbo at the time and misses it, in which case she's sitting there now feeling very confused.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Oct 2005 03:38 pm    
By JD

I'm having trouble identifying some bit players in the Human Resistance Movement. 

I can recognise : Cage, Cloak, Black Cat, Misty Knight, Iron Fist, Layla Miller, Hawkeye. I know that the White Tiger, Moon Knight and the Sons of the Tiger are there, but I've never seen them out of costume. 
In particular, who are : 
- the other blond guy with longer hair ? 
- the brown-haired guy ? 
- the dark-haired girl ? 
- the asian-looking guy with yellow glasses ? 

There are two other girls that "didn't make it", one black and the other asian with a fancy dress.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:28 am    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
In an interesting, and surely not accidental, scene near the end of NEW X-MEN #19, Magik actually teleports away moments before the second reality warp hits. So it's conceivable that she's in Limbo at the time and misses it, in which case she's sitting there now feeling very confused. 
<<<

So how many people miss/potentially miss the second warp then? Right now, I think it's four - Cable and Deadpool (teleport kicks in just as reality warps again, possibly because Providence gets reinstated before Sinister's lab - on the other hand, Siryn and Cannonball get hit full in the face by it but keep their powers), Proteus (in Exiles) and now possibly Magik.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 06:10 pm    
By JD

I'm just letting you know that I'm progressing well on these analyses. 

Done : 
- HOM 1-7 
- FF:HOM 
- IM:HOM 
- H3 83-86 
- EX 69-71 
- BP4 7 (mostly an updated version of Col_fury's analysis) 
- CA5 10 
- C&D 17 
- Pulse 10 

To do next : 
- Mutopia X 1-4 
- UXM 462-465 
- TB2 11 

Will probably be delayed until I get the missing issues : 
- SM:HOM 
- NXM:AX 16-19 
- W3 33-35 
- HOM 8 

My draft is already more than 800 lines long...  

[edit] corrected a few abbreviations

Last edited by JD on 29 Oct 2005 03:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 28 Oct 2005 11:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Man, I remember when *I* had this much free time... :-/ 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 01:51 am    
By JD

JD wrote: 
>>>
To do next : 
- MX 1-4 
- UXM 462-465 
- NT 11 
<<< 

 
MX is Mutant X; NT is Night Thrasher. 
I assume by NT you mean New Thunderbolts, which would be simply TB2 here. Not sure what MX is referring to. 


JD wrote: 
>>>
My draft is already more than 800 lines long...  
<<<

You are planning on posting these analyses separately, right? 


watching: new mexico v colorado state

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 03:13 am
By JD

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I assume by NT you mean New Thunderbolts, which would be simply TB2 here. Not sure what MX is referring to. 
<<<

Thanks for the tip. 
I was thinking of Mutopia X for MX. What should it be referred to as ? MUTOPX ? 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
You are planning on posting these analyses separately, right? 
<<<

Well, obviously the forum software would choke if I tried to submit it all into only one post. I'm not sure whether to give each title its thread or to put them all into separate posts of the same thread (since the aim of this is to cook up a global HOM chronology). What would you prefer ?

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 10:54 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JD wrote: 
>>>
I was thinking of Mutopia X for MX. What should it be referred to as ? MUTOPX ? 
<<<

That'll be fine for now, although it may not be what we end up with. Honestly, any abbreviation is fine, as long as it communicates. For instance, in that same snippet I quoted, you used UXM for Uncanny X-Men, whereas the Project uses UX. I have no objection, because we don't already have another title that uses UXM. UXM communicates, it gets your point across, whereas NT and MX create confusion. 


JD wrote: 
>>>
I'm not sure whether to give each title its thread or to put them all into separate posts of the same thread (since the aim of this is to cook up a global HOM chronology). What would you prefer ? 
<<<

Each title in its own thread. 


watching: auburn v mississippi

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 11:01 am    
By Col_Fury

Have we decided how to treat the 'historical' FlashBacks yet? I seem to remember a topic covering this, but I can't seem to find it now... 

The reason I ask, is because there's many FlashBacks in the Wolverine HoM issues, some of which take place over two decades ago, and others that take place a few days ago. Would we list the 'Mexico mission' FlashBacks in Wolverine's chronology & not the 'training' FlashBacks? The Mexico mission FBs I think would fit in easily enough, but I'm thinking we'll have to ignore the 'false' history, much like Captain America's HoM history seen in Cap's HoM issue. 

Food for thought...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 11:48 am    
By JD

Thanks, Administrator. 
I'll post a first group of analyses soon, then. 

Col_Fury wrote: 
Have we decided how to treat the 'historical' FlashBacks yet? I seem to remember a topic covering this, but I can't seem to find it now... 


Here 

Personnally, I chose to ignore all of them. Anything that happens before the "first day" of the House of M world (the one where Wolverine wakes up) is only false memories. 

How these stories are told is a big hint in this direction : these flashbacks are always narrated by a character somewhere in the "House of M world" timeframe, never by an omniscient narrator. 

The only dubious case is the flashback in BP4 7 of Storm's appearance in Alison's show. Evidence points to it having happened the day before Wolverine awakened. The reality warp could have created the tape, but it's a bit of a stretch. 

On the whole, I've evaluated the HoM world to last about five days. It works for all the titles I've already analysed, if you ignore a one-line comment in H3 85. 

Yes, this approach means ignoring vast chunks of W3 33-35 and CA5 10, but it's not as if there really was a way to include the 60 years of events depicted there.

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Posted: 29 Oct 2005 07:00 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm fairly comfortable with the idea that the pre-warp House of M universe simply doesn't exist - Wanda rewrites the world, and lumbers everyone with false memories to match. That's certainly consistent with everything we see. 

This has the interesting consequence of three consecutive issues of WOLVERINE which largely consist of false flashbacks, and which don't feature the real Wolverine at all. But so it goes.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Nov 2005 05:32 pm    
By Hotcharokey

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGH! 

Did the writer of Spider-Man: House of M even bother to find out what was happening in the House of M limited series or visa versa? 

In Spider-Man: House of M #5, Pete, who is hated by just about everyone, fakes his own death, and his family goes into hiding. (BTW, Enough time has passed to allow Pete's hair to grow back.) In House of M #5, however, an almost-bald and apparently well-liked Pete and his family are taking a walk in the city when Pete gets recruited to join the fight against Magneto. 

It's going to take a lot of stretching to make sense out of this one. Let's see: 

After Spider-Man: House of M #5, Magneto stops persecuting sapiens and things settle down enough for Pete to reveal that he is alive and to return to New York (and to shave his head again even though no one in his family seems to like it). 

Or 

Magneto does not stop persecuting sapiens, so Spider-Man shaves his head again and returns as he promised in his note to Magneto. (Of course that does not explain why he seems to be well-liked again.) 

Or 

To save time, Emma Frost mind-controlled Pete and his family and made them return to the city. She then made everyone love him again. 

Can anyone make any sense out of this for me?

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 12:25 am    
By Col_Fury

I think your first option seems to work the best. Not as satisfying as you would hope, but there you go. 

HoM 8 seems to suggest that it's the next morning after HoM 1. The people who don't remember HoM aren't complaining of lost time, they're talking about the mutant issue. No one says this explicity of course, but the clues indicate that when Wanda reset reality, it picked up at the moment it left off. Happily, this coincides with Hulk 87, where Bruce wakes up & the security guards don't know why he's there... he appeared there in the middle of the night! 

But where does this leave us? If no time has passed, did HoM actually happen? Or did Wanda rewind time? We know it wasn't an alternate reality because the Exiles HoM issues told us it was 616.(those pesky numerical designations...) Only a handful of characters even remember it... but the Exiles & Deadpool visited it & left. 

If we do end up listing HoM appearances, & since it looks like no time has passed in the 'real world,' should we therefore include the FlashBacks? If we don't, the entire Spider-Man: HoM mini would be deleted, not to mention big chunks of the Wolverine tie-ins. How about something like this: 

Storm/Ororo Munroe 
X 176 
HoM 
X: Decimation 1(or whatever) 

The HoM could link to a HoM side page detailing all the appearances in the HoM. It would be similar to how we treat AoA, but since that was an alternate reality there's no link for those characters. HoM is slightly different, of course. 

What do you think?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 12:37 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
How about something like this: 

Storm/Ororo Munroe 
X 176 
HoM 
X: Decimation 1(or whatever) 

The HoM could link to a HoM side page detailing all the appearances in the HoM. 
<<<

What would this solve? 

I mean, either the stories happen, or they don't. 

If yes, then simply list the appearances in order. The passage of time may or may not be a problem for Paul's calendar, but it shouldn't affect the reading order that we present in the chronological listings. 

If no, then there's no need to complicate things by branching off to another page for stories that didn't happen. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 12:55 am    
By Col_Fury

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
there's no need to complicate things by branching off to another page  
<<<

Good point. 

The stories did happen, at least according to Exiles & Deadpool. So I guess the question now is, do we include the FlashBacks & the Spider-Man mini?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The stories clearly did happen. It seems a bit pedantic to get worked up about the exact passage of time in a story which involves a massive reality warp and the de facto suspension of the laws of physics as its starting point. If the timeline is a little screwy... hey, the world's in the middle of a massive reality distortion, what do you expect?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 06:26 am    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Storm/Ororo Munroe 
X 176 
HoM 
X: Decimation 1(or whatever) 
<<<

Nitpick : UX 462 would fit between X176 and HoM (the first page shows Storm's group of X-Men hit by the first reality warp). 

I agree that most events depicted in HoM have happened (after all, some heroes remember them). 

SM:HOM seems indeed to be the biggest problem. From a chronological point of view, there are several possibilities : 
- It really is supposed to have happened between HOM 1 & 5. This is very awkward, since we are meant to fit at least five days and enough time to allow for the complete reversal of anything that happens in it in what looks like a three-day span in HOM. 
- it is supposed to have happened before HOM. Which doesn't address the problem of having a big statu-quo-destroying story and then restoring the statu quo behind the scenes. 
- It didn't happen. It's all a dream by Peter. (Actually, some of it needs to happens, like the shaving of his head. Maybe only ignore the last few pages of SM:HOM 1 and the following issues ?) 


There's also a possibility that I've willingly ignored until know, because it would open a big can of worms : what I've always called "Day One" (the awakening of Wolverine) isn't actually the first "real" day of the HoM world. There are actually a few days or weeks happening between the reality warp and it, allowing for SM:HOM, the recent flashbacks of W3, and a full-length H3 to happen. The catch is that it doesn't make much sense (why would it take so long for Logan to wake up ?), and heavily conflicts with UX (where the heroes already have to wait doing nothing for two days for no obvious reason).

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 06:54 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The passage of time may or may not be a problem for Paul's calendar 
<<<

I haven't read HOM 8 yet, but this should pose no real problem. If weeks of HOM events get compressed into one or two days or if the clock gets reset to the day after HOM 1, then I plan to cram all of the HOM events (at least the non-FB ones) in chronological order into a single day (or two, with the placement of midnight Eastern time left up to my discretion, I suppose) on the calendar. And I may do away with noting HOM-reality temporal references, as they have no bearing on the original reality's calendar. 

Temporal references in HOM-reality books are important, though, insofar as they help us determine relative chronological placement of HOM events. So regardless of actual time passage, it would be great to have that chronological listing of page/panel ranges of the various HOM-related books.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 07:13 am    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So regardless of actual time passage, it would be great to have that chronological listing of page/panel ranges of the various HOM-related books. 
<<<

I hope my analyses will help there. 

By the way, I've read very quickly through HOM 8, and I didn't see any actual reference to no time happening between HOM 1 & 8. Some characters don't remember anything happening in between, but that's to be expected. It's not explicitly stated, but I got a general impression of "Uh, what happened over the last few days ? Hey, all the mutants have disappeared !"

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 07:48 am    
By jephyork
Director

Exactly. Most characters don't *recall* that any time has passed -- but that doesn't mean that no time passed. 

And, the way I read Spider-Man:HoM #5, there was an out at the end. Spider-Man has become an urban legend, and a lot of people simply don't believe he's dead. He's officially dead, sure -- but his fans "know better". 

I don't recall exactly how people treated Peter in that scene in Central Park in the main HoM series, but just say that they're hardcore Spider-Fans who didn't believe the story of his death for a second. This way, it doesn't necessarily have to be "a lot of time" since Spider-Man:HoM #5. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 08:15 am    
By Somebody

Obvious question - why not just put SM:HoM *before* the reality warp, leaving it in the same false-memories area as the Cap issue?

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 08:54 am    
By JD

Well, it's possible (and for the moment, false memory/dream/whatever is what I personnaly prefer), but it doesn't account for a few facts : 
- Peter has to shave his head again between HOM 1 & 5, even though nobody liked it 
- the statu quo post SM:HOM 5 is still widely different from the one in HOM 5 ; we have to change everything behind the scenes 

The "secret admirer" idea doesn't fit, since Spidey is a celebrity on Day One (see the Pulse edition Logan is reading in HOM 3).

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 09:35 am    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
- Peter has to shave his head again between HOM 1 & 5, even though nobody liked it 
<<<

So he can walk through CP without being readily recognised 


JD wrote: 
>>>
- the statu quo post SM:HOM 5 is still widely different from the one in HOM 5 ; we have to change everything behind the scenes 
<<<

Inconsistancy in the false memories. 


JD wrote: 
>>>
The "secret admirer" idea doesn't fit, since Spidey is a celebrity on Day One (see the Pulse edition Logan is reading in HOM 3). 
<<<

What sort of lead time is the Pulse meant to have, OoC? If it's a full-on magazine, SMHoM could have been three months ago.

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 09:50 am    
By Jason Doty

Why is this situation being made harder than it has to be. 

We don't know the nature of how the 616 was changed. If it was an illussion cast over the world? The present was changed and past memories implanted? Somehow another timeline was implanted and merged with the 616? or any number of possibilities. 

We start with HoM 1and place any flashbacks or story elements prior between the world going white and Spider-Man waking up. Just italicize or some other form to address them but also show that we don't know how they occured. I don't see how this is such a bad idea. 

This way we include all the series with minimal effort and confine them to one area. 

Jeph! believes we should not use the flashbacks because they are implanted fabrication, but I believe that Scarlet Witch's power to control probabilities was the cause to this change and now believe she accessed other timelines and amalgamated them in the 616. 

This would seem consistant to how she uses her powers in the Ultimate universe (examples would be turning Longshot into a cat or in the Ultimates battle with Thor trying to find a universe where he was something different, but was knocked unconcious before doing so). 

I don't see why we have to chose one persons idea over anothers when the nature of the change was never explained in the series. 

We don't know if she altered the past? 
We don't know how she raised the dead? 
We don't know why her powers are currently opperating the way they are? 

Let's just keep the story confined untill a handbook or other marvel publication adresses them and move on.

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 10:10 am    
By JD

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
JD wrote: 
>>>
- Peter has to shave his head again between HOM 1 & 5, even though nobody liked it 
<<<

So he can walk through CP without being readily recognised 
<<<

Well, a random guy on a bike who was just passing says "Yo, Spider-Man ! You're the man !", so it's clearly not working  
By the way, HOM 5 is not in Central Park, but in a street nearby. It's the Pulse edition that has a stolen picture of him in CP (sporting his usual haircut). 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
JD wrote: 
>>>
The "secret admirer" idea doesn't fit, since Spidey is a celebrity on Day One (see the Pulse edition Logan is reading in HOM 3). 
<<<

What sort of lead time is the Pulse meant to have, OoC? If it's a full-on magazine, SMHoM could have been three months ago. 
<<<

It's a good question, which has a clear answer : it's very, very short. 
Proof : it refers to Storm's speach at Allison's as "yesterday", exactly like Magneto in the first day of BP4 7. Either you push that backwards (which seems very contrived), or this edition is from Day One. 
It's difficult to determine the exact periodicity. There's a "weekend edition", which suggest a daily publication, or at least a weekly supplement to the Daily Bugle. However, when Hawkeye looks at a Pulse edition on Day Four (PULSE #10), the cover is nearly the same as in Day One (there are a few different details). 
Also, it is clearly noted as a "special edition", which seems strange (why do it on a Tuesday, four days before the actual event ?). 

Does anyone who regularly reads THE PULSE know about this ? 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
We start with HoM 1and place any flashbacks or story elements prior between the world going white and Spider-Man waking up. Just italicize or some other form to address them but also show that we don't know how they occured. I don't see how this is such a bad idea. 
<<<

It doesn't help at all with the placement of SM:HOM. 
It's obvious that it was originally meant to happen between HOM 1 & 5, but the actual plot is impossible to fit into such a placement (contrary to FF:HOM and IM:HOM).

Last edited by JD on 03 Nov 2005 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 10:19 am    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
Well, a random guy on a bike who was just passing says "Yo, Spider-Man ! You're the man !", so it's clearly not working   
<<<

Did I say it worked? 

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 10:30 am    
By JD

More seriously, the Pulse edition conflicts further by having a retrospective on Hogan/GG which doesn't mention anything about the other GG or the beating inflicted to Hogan on the Peter's behalf (they're still depicted as the best of friends).

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 01:26 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, if it doesn't fit anywhere at all, then we just shove it in regardless between HOUSE OF M #1 and #5, since that's where it's clearly meant to go. No point deviating from the obvious intent, unless we have a better option.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 01:33 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

My standard disclaimer is in effect. I haven't read House of M. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I don't see why we have to chose one persons idea over anothers when the nature of the change was never explained in the series. 
<<<

We have a long-standing policy in place. If a flashback contradicts previous events without explanation (in effect, can't occur), the trust of the flashback can be called into question. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
We don't know why her powers are currently opperating the way they are? 
<<<

For our purposes, the question is irrelevant. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
We don't know how she raised the dead? 
<<<

Again, I can only shrug. We don't need to know how she raised the dead, or even if it was truly her. That's a question for the guys at the Appendix to wrangle over, but I don't see how that affects chronologies. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
We don't know if she altered the past? 
<<<

Now that's a different kind of question. The how and why doesn't matter to us, but if is relevant to chronologies. If the books don't tell us that something occurred ("the past was altered"), I don't feel very comfortable incorporating them into the chronologies, based on a theory. There's always the opportunity to come back later and incorporate them, if the books tell us we need to. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
Let's just keep the story confined untill a handbook or other marvel publication adresses them and move on. 


Not certain what you mean by "confined," but in principle, I agree. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 01:45 pm    
By JD

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Well, if it doesn't fit anywhere at all, then we just shove it in regardless between HOUSE OF M #1 and #5, since that's where it's clearly meant to go. No point deviating from the obvious intent, unless we have a better option. 
<<<

There's always the possibility of declaring it out of continuity... 
"What if Spider-Man had never been awakened in the House of M ?"

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 02:00 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
If the books don't tell us that something occurred ("the past was altered"), I don't feel very comfortable incorporating them into the chronologies, based on a theory. 
<<<

To the extent the stories address this at all, the strong implication is that history has not changed, but everyone now has new memories which match the world around them. There are two main points here:- 

1. In the PULSE crossover issue (written by Bendis, of course), Hawkeye goes through the Daily Bugle archives and finds that they still contain stories about the real world. He tries showing them to Kat Farrell, but she sees something completely different. The idea seems to be that Wanda hasn't actually changed everything - she's relying on altered perceptions to paper over the cracks. If history had actually altered, there would be no news articles about "Avengers Disassembled." (Presumably the reality warp ensures that everyone sees the same thing.) 

2. For Wolverine, the plot idea is that his greatest dream was to remember his whole life. Wanda is trying to grant this wish while simultaneously giving him a House of M false history, and obviously that's impossible. As a result, his memory implants short-circuit the moment he wakes up in HOUSE OF M #2. If all of the revised history had actually occurred, presumably Wolverine's implants would have failed from the word go, for the same reason.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 06:08 pm    
By Chrisday

Events Pre-HoM Reality Warp: 
New Thunderbolts #8,9,10(pages1-20) 
Exiles #66 
Cable and Deadpool #15 
House of M #1(pages1-23) 
Events immediately prior (off panel) to Uncanny X-men #462 

The Reality Warp to the transformed HoM reality occurs in: 
New Thunderbolts #10(pages 21-22) 
Cable and Deadpool #16 (off panel  before page 20  no earlier than Cable and Deadpool #15 page 14) 
Exiles #67 (off panel  before page 10  possibly, but unlikely in an earlier issue of Exiles  but we simply cant know for sure) 
Uncanny X-men #462 (page 1) 
House of M #1 (pages 23-24) 

Chronological events of the House of M universe (Note that this altered history of the universe is fabricated, including memories of numerous characters.): 
Uncanny X-men #462 (page 2 onwards), 463, 464, 465 
House of M #1 (page 25 onwards), 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 
Cable and Deadpool #16 (page 20 onwards), 17 
Exiles #67 (page 10 onwards), 68, 69, 70, 71 
NXM Academy X #16, 17, 18, 19 
House of M: Fantastic Four #1-3 
New Thunderbolts #11 
Wolverine #33, 34, 35 
and other tie in issues i haven't looked at yet 

The Reality Warp Back to Normal occurs in: 
House of M #7 (last page) 
Exiles #71 (last page) 
Cable and Deadpool #17 (last page) 
NXM Academy X # 19 (last page) 

The immediate Post House of M chronology includes: 
Cable & Deadpool #18 (immediately after the warp back) 
House of M #8 

some titles (like Academy X) use the event of Wolverine jumping off the hellicarrier as a chronological reference point, and others (like Exiles) mention the summit between the world leaders. 

apart from that, all i can contribute is this (but i don't know for sure, i got this from another source, i haven't read it myself): 

Wolverine #33  35 has to occur sometime between HOM#3 page 11 and page 16 , because HOM#3 pages 1- 15 show Wolverine remembering his whole life and ultimately realizing that reality is screwed up. He jumps off the SHIELD carrier, reads the paper and goes to 1407 Greymalkin Lane. Wolverine #33 Pages 1-2 shows a video playback of Wolverine jumping off the carrier. Page 3 - "4 hours later", Mystique is called into Shaw's office to discuss Wolverine's behavior over past weeks. Wolverine #34-35 is basically a continuation of this with Mystique & Shaw discussing Wolverine and recounting past events. The last page of Wolverine #35 Shaw tells Mystique to get Wolverine back, which is what she and the rest of the Red Guard attempt to do in HOM#3 page 16-19. Given that Mystique is called into Shaw's office 4 hours after Wolverine jumped ship, that should have been enough time for him to go to 1407 Greymalkin Lane and beat up the mutant bullies (in HOM#3 pages 12-15). So Mystique and Shaw's conversation probably happened during & for a short time after Wolverine's visit to Greymalkin Lane (but before he got to Stark Tower in NYC). Wolverines actions continue in the House of M series itself

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Posted: 04 Nov 2005 06:52 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Paul O. said: 

Quote: 
>>>
If history had actually altered, there would be no news articles about "Avengers Disassembled."  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
For Wolverine, the plot idea is that his greatest dream was to remember his whole life. Wanda is trying to grant this wish while simultaneously giving him a House of M false history, and obviously that's impossible. As a result, his memory implants short-circuit the moment he wakes up in HOUSE OF M #2. 
<<<

Both are very good points and support the argument that flashback events in the HOM reality are non-canonical. 

I've heard the argument that, say, Spider-Man appeared in HOM 1 (1-24), then his next experience would have been his birth the the House of M reality, followed by an entire life from childhood to adulthood, including flashbacks in the HOM-related books...followed in turn by his appearance on page 25 of HOM 1. In light of the clues that Paul presents, this just cannot be so.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Nov 2005 09:38 am    
By Col_Fury

So the general consensus is that for chronology purposes, Spider-Man: HoM & the majority of the Wolverine issues are false memories, and therefore shouldn't be included? I can live with that. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 10:05 am    
By JD

Wolverine and Captain America ? Yes. 
For SM:HOM, we don't seem to have reached consensus yet. Personnally, I'd rather opt for "out of continuity", since there is no good way to make it fit anywhere. However, false memories don't bother me too much, since the results are the same (we don't include it).

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Posted: 04 Nov 2005 10:26 am 
By Jason Doty

I concede to the point that she did not alter the past, but did alter reality in the present to change the 616. 

But in following chronologies the characters actions are based on past expierences. I know the project is just a listing from where one character appears last and next but by excluding these fabricated flashbacks we are leaving out significant parts to refer a reader too to learn the past of the altered character that is affecting his or her current actions. 

I'm not for changing pasts or giving these flashbacks the standard flashback indication, but creating a new one to address this situation. 

All characters residing on the 616 that appeared in any way with this crossover should be given a HoM 1-BTS where the story takes place, unless they appeared in HoM 1 followed by a listing of implanted or fabricated flashbacks, followed by actual appearances in the present and then a BTS in HoM 7, unless they actually appeared in it, and the world continues as it did before. 

HoM: FF is a good example of why we should include them in these flashbacks. Mr. Fantastic did not appear anywhere in the HoM except a flashback, listing this flashback explains to a reader why he is not present in the changed HoM. 

For his listing he would recieve an annotation something like this: 

Mr. Fantastic/ Reed Richards 
FF 5031 
HOM 1-BTS 
HoM:FF 1-FB 
HoM 7-BTS 
FF 5032 

We know he was in the 616 when the realty warp happened but without the flashback we don't refer a reader to where he went. 

Also those who are reanimated and survive on after this event are going to be a mess to follow chronologically. Proteus is a good example in Exiles. First he is reanimated, followed by being implanted with memories, followed him leaving this reality. His actions are based on these altered memories and we should refer a reader to them.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 10:48 am    
By JD

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
HoM:FF 1-FB 
<<<

That would be HOM:FF 2-FB.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 11:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I know the project is just a listing from where one character appears last and next but by excluding these fabricated flashbacks we are leaving out significant parts to refer a reader too to learn the past of the altered character that is affecting his or her current actions. 
<<<

I take that point, but I think that lies outwith the scope of the MCP. There are many characters whose lives are materially affected by issues in which they did not appear, or who at various times have acted in reliance on flashbacks subsequently revealed to be false. This isn't a new situation, in that sense, and I don't think we need to come up with a new policy to address it. The MCP has never purported to be a list of every comic that's important to a particular character, merely a chronological sequencing of every scene in which they actually appear.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 11:32 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
But in following chronologies the characters actions are based on past expierences. 
<<<

Not strictly speaking. The characters' actions are based on memories of experiences, which may or may not be accurate. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
HoM: FF is a good example of why we should include them in these flashbacks. Mr. Fantastic did not appear anywhere in the HoM except a flashback, listing this flashback explains to a reader why he is not present in the changed HoM.  
<<<

Well, the flashback is essentially an implanted memory. Reed did NOT die; everyone just thinks he did. Which means that the flashback is not a bonafide appearance anyway. Reed was NOT lying dead in a crashed shuttle at any point; Doom just thinks he was. It's an important, albiet subtle, distinction. The memory contradicts the facts (namely, that Reed didn't die) and so the actual story takes precedence over the memory. 

How do we know that this was a memory and not an alteration of the actual past? Because we see repeated examples throughout the story of heroes -- when confronted with actual reality (as opposed to the fauz reality Wanda created) -- they snap back to that reality. Hawkeye sees the newspaper article about his death where Kat doesn't. Jen Walters realizes that she really is super-strong. We're shown repeatedly that Wanda didn't recreate the past and present; she just altered everyone's perception of it. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
We know he was in the 616 when the realty warp happened but without the flashback we don't refer a reader to where he went. 
<<<

That's not our job here at the MCP, as Russ pointed out. Our job is simply to say Character X appeared here before/after here. We don't have to provide any explanation of how they get from point A to point B. The FF were around before the start of House of M, and they were around after it. That Reed and Sue don't actually appear during the story is irrelevant to us here.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 11:53 am    
By Somebody

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Well, the flashback is essentially an implanted memory. Reed did NOT die; everyone just thinks he did. Which means that the flashback is not a bonafide appearance anyway. Reed was NOT lying dead in a crashed shuttle at any point; Doom just thinks he was. It's an important, albiet subtle, distinction. The memory contradicts the facts (namely, that Reed didn't die) and so the actual story takes precedence over the memory. 

How do we know that this was a memory and not an alteration of the actual past? Because we see repeated examples throughout the story of heroes -- when confronted with actual reality (as opposed to the fauz reality Wanda created) -- they snap back to that reality. Hawkeye sees the newspaper article about his death where Kat doesn't. Jen Walters realizes that she really is super-strong. We're shown repeatedly that Wanda didn't recreate the past and present; she just altered everyone's perception of it. 
<<<

Which begs the question - what of those who died during the real HoM and have now sprung back to life. Hell, what was going on with Reed and Sue suring that time?

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 12:00 pm    
By JD

They were captive somewhere out of sight ? 

Actually, most of the characters who died on-panel during HoM were characters who were revived for HoM. Judging by some commentaries about Mutopia X and New X-Men, it seems that the deaths of the few people who were actually alive to start with are intended to stick.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 12:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
...by excluding these fabricated flashbacks we are leaving out significant parts to refer a reader too to learn the past of the altered character that is affecting his or her current actions. 
<<<

If they're false memories, there's nowhere to place them in the chronologies, because they didn't occur. 


watching: live from

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 01:08 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Which begs the question - what of those who died during the real HoM and have now sprung back to life. Hell, what was going on with Reed and Sue suring that time? 
<<<

Excellent questions, indeed. But totally irrelevant to this board. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 02:17 pm    
By gregorynbaker

This is the order for House of M I came up with. It assumes that a number of stories in the House of M are made up completely of "false memories" created by Wanda for the various characters. The actual time of the House of M begins with House of M #2. I have not included New Thunderbolts 8-10 since I do not have those issues. Also, I incorporated the various dimension jumps of Cable/Deadpool 15-17, assuming 36 hours pass between jumps (this was the only way I could have Deadpool, Cannonball, and Siryn leave 616 before House of M and return just before it ended. I have broken this down as a linear reading order, and though I have included day/night breaks, hour and scene breaks are not included. The issue analyses from this forum were used to help organize my thoughts as well. I hope this is useful for people. 

Some time prior... 
Excalibur III 14 
Cable/Deadpool 15a+ (1-12) 

The first flash... 
House of M 1 
Mutopia X 1a (1-3) 
Uncanny X-Men 462a (1-19) 

False flashbacks... 
Secrets of the House of M.1 
Secrets of the House of M.2 
Secrets of the House of M.3 
Spider-Man: House of M 1 
Spider-Man: House of M 2 
Spider-Man: House of M 3 
Spider-Man: House of M 4 
Spider-Man: House of M 5.1 
Incredible Hulk III 83 
Incredible Hulk III 84 
Incredible Hulk III 85 
Incredible Hulk III 86 
Black Panther IV 7 
Fantastic Four: House of M 1 
Fantastic Four: House of M 2 
Fantastic Four: House of M 3 
Mutopia X 1b (4-11) 

Meanwhile in a totally different universe... 
Cable/Deadpool 15n (13-21) 
Cable/Deadpool 16a (1-6) 

Day 1: 
House of M 2 
House of M 3a (1-11) ~ The Pulse: House of M Special 
Mutopia X 1c (12-14) 
Wolverine III 33a (1-2) 
Uncanny X-Men 462b (20-23) 
Uncanny X-Men 463a (1-5) 
Iron Man: House of M 1a (1-6) 
Wolverine III 33b (3-24) 
Wolverine III 34 
Wolverine III 35a (1-3) 
Iron Man: House of M 1b (7-10) 

Night 1: 
Mutopia X 1d (15-20) 
Uncanny X-Men 463b (6-8) 
Mutopia X 1e (21-22) 
Mutopia X 2a (1-2) 
Iron Man: House of M 1c (11-12) 
Wolverine III 35b (4-25) 
House of M 3b (12-15) 

Day 2: 
Uncanny X-Men 463c (9-22) 
Uncanny X-Men 464a (1-14) 
House of M 3c (16-22) 
House of M 4a (1-16) 
Mutopia X 2b (3-8) 
Cable/Deadpool 16b (7-13) 
Uncanny X-Men 464b (15-23) 
Uncanny X-Men 465 

Night 2: 
House of M 4b (17-22) 
House of M 5a (1-5) 
Iron Man: House of M 1d (13-14) 
New Thunderbolts 11 
Iron Man: House of M 1e (15-22) 
Iron Man: House of M 2a (1-4) 
Mutopia X 2c (9-10) 

Day 3: 
Iron Man: House of M 2b (5-10) 
House of M 5b (6-12) 
Iron Man: House of M 2c (11-22) 
Iron Man: House of M 3 
Mutopia X 2d (11-22) 

Night 3: 
House of M 5c (13-14p6) 
Captain America V 10 
House of M 5d (14p7-14p9) 
Mutopia X 3a (1-4) 
Cable/Deadpool 16c (14-19p5) 

Day 4: 
Mutopia X 3b (5-14) 
New X-Men II 16a (1-10) 
Exiles 69a (1-13) 
House of M 5e (15-19) 
Mutopia X 3c (15) 
The Pulse 10a (1-9) 
New X-Men II 16b (11-20) 

Night 4: 
Mutopia X 3d (16-22) 
New X-Men II 16c (21-23) 
New X-Men II 17a (1-11) 
Mutopia X 4a (1) 
New X-Men II 17b (12-20) 
The Pulse 10b (10-21) 
Mutopia X 4b (2-3) 
Exiles 69b (14-22) 

Day 5: 
House of M 6a (1-2) 
House of M 5f (20-21) 
House of M 6b (3-4) 
New X-Men II 17c (21-22) 
New X-Men II 18a (1-11) 
Mutopia X 4c (4) 
House of M 6c (5-8) 
Cable/Deadpool 16d (19p6-21) 
Cable/Deadpool 17a (1-6) 
Exiles 70a (1-19) 
New X-Men II 18b (12-22) 
New X-Men II 19a (1-16) 
Mutopia X 4d (5-10) 
House of M 6d (9-22) 
House of M 7a (1-4) 
Cable/Deadpool 17b (7-10) 
Exiles 70b (20-22) 
Exiles 71a (1-17) 
House of M 7b (5-17) 
Cable/Deadpool 17c (11-16) 
Mutopia X 4e (11-19) 
House of M 7c (18-25) 
Exiles 71b (18-19) 
New X-Men II 19b (17-23) 
Cable/Deadpool 17d (17-19) 
Exiles 71c (20) 
Mutopia X 4f (20-23)

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 06:04 pm    
By JD

gregorynbaker wrote: 
>>>
False flashbacks... 
Secrets of the House of M.1 
Secrets of the House of M.2 
Secrets of the House of M.3 
<<<

What's that ? Secrets of the House of M is a handbook-type guide, and is thus outside our scope. 


gregorynbaker wrote: 
>>>
Spider-Man: House of M 5.1 
<<<

Why the ".1" ? 


gregorynbaker wrote: 
>>>
Incredible Hulk III 83 
Incredible Hulk III 84 
Incredible Hulk III 85 
Incredible Hulk III 86 
Black Panther IV 7 
Fantastic Four: House of M 1 
Fantastic Four: House of M 2 
Fantastic Four: House of M 3 
<<<

Most of these can be fit into the chronology, I don't see why they should be dismissed as false flashbacks. 


Quote: 
>>>
House of M 5d (14p7-14p9) 
<<<

This is in Day 4's morning (and I think this is also the case for HOM 5 page 14 panels 4-6).

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 11:36 pm    
By gregorynbaker

the .1, .2, etc. refer the number of the story. (Sorry, I know this site usually uses /2, etc.) 

Spider-Man: House of M 5/2 is a Franklin Richards story 

While the first "story" in Secrets of the House of M is just power files and stuff, the second story is an interview by Trish Tilby of Hank McCoy, Otto Octavius, and Hank Pym and does have some bearing on the story, I think. But it could easily be dismissed. 

I chose to put the Incredible Hulk issues in "false flashbacks" because it seemed that at least a week had passed between issues 84 and 85, thus making it outside the scope of House of M #2-7. 

House of M #6 has Doom act suprised to receive an invitation, yet it is common knowledge in House of M #3 (same morning as #2), that Doom is coming to the gala. Therefore, I surmised that Fantastic Four: House of M was before House of M #2, and therefore in the realm of "false flashbacks." 

As for Black Panther IV #7, I placed that before Fantastic Four: House of M and House of M #2 based on the suggestion of Col_Fury. However, this issue could, I believe, be integrated between House of M #2 and House of M #7 

The She-Hulk, Daredevil, and Captain America panels on p. 14 of House of M #5 I put in the evening only to fit with the end of Captain America V #10 (I know he is wearing a different outfit), but it seemed silly for the team to scope out Captain America returning from the 50th anniversary of his moon landing, then go recruit Daredevil and She-Hulk and then return only to decide not to recruit Cap after all. Although, with some of the other silly continuity nonsense in this cross-over (Spider-Man: House of M and Genis' coma for example), I guess this would not be outside the realm of possibility. 

Thanks for the feedback!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 02:02 am    
By Col_Fury

gregorynbaker wrote: 
>>>
House of M #6 has Doom act suprised to receive an invitation, yet it is common knowledge in House of M #3 (same morning as #2), that Doom is coming to the gala. Therefore, I surmised that Fantastic Four: House of M was before House of M #2, and therefore in the realm of "false flashbacks."  
<<<

On the other hand, it could mean that FF: HoM happens between HoM 3 & 6. HoM 3 has Doom going to the gala, he tries to kill Magneto in FF: HoM, then is surprised to get an invitation in HoM 6. If I tried to kill the guy giving the party, I'd be surprised to get an invitation, too!(of course, this depends on when Magneto sends out invitations...) 

This would still allow for the three days in BP4 7 to pass,(day 1 was Storm on 'Alison') & the three days in FF: HoM to pass, all before HoM 6. 

Under this line of thinking, Doom's appearance in BP4 7 would fit between FF:HoM 2 pg17 & pg18.(only Doom's mother appears in pg18pn1) pg 17 was late afternoon, & the 'Council of Kings' seen in BP4 7 was at night. This would mean Doom really did have plans of his own! 

Using Doom & Magneto as examples, how would this look: 

Doctor Doom/Victor Von Doom 
... 
FF: HoM 1 
FF: HoM 2 -pg17 
BP4 7 
FF: HoM 2 pg18- 
FF: HoM 3 
HoM 6 
... 

Magneto/Magnus/"Eric Lensherr" 
... 
HoM 4 
FF: HoM 1 
BP4 7 pg4-pg6, pg 12 
FF:HoM 2 pg6-pg7 
BP4 7 pg14 
FF: HoM 2 pg18-pg22 
FF: HoM 3 
BP4 7 pg22pn4 
HoM 5 
HoM 6 
HoM 7 
... 

FF: HoM 1 & BP4 7 pg4-pg6 would be the same day. 
BP4 pg12, FF: HoM 2 pg6-pg7, & BP4 7 pg14 would be the next day. 
FF: HoM 2 pg18-pg22, FF: HoM 3, & BP4 7 pg22pn4 would be the day after that. 

Of course, this would mean that BP4 7 pg22pn4 would be 'Day 5' in relation to BP4 7's analysis. This panel & the end of FF: HoM 3 have the same 'setting sun' sky seen in the background. 

And, for those who would rather not cross-reference: 

Magneto/Magnus/"Eric Lensherr" 
... 
HoM 4 - M looks at his grandson 
FF: HoM 1 - M & D talk about Mole Man 
BP4 7 pg4-pg6 - M & Q talk about Storm 
BP4 7 pg12 - M & Q find Sabretooth's head 
FF:HoM 2 pg6-pg7 - M & D talk about a dimensional prison 
BP4 7 pg14 - M sicks Apocalypse on BP 
FF: HoM 2 pg18-pg22 - the trap! 
FF: HoM 3 - M defeats D 
BP4 7 pg22pn4 - M discovers that Apocalypse failed 
HoM 5 - M looks at X's grave, morning of the gala event 
HoM 6 - gala event 
HoM 7 - gala event, reality warp #2 
... 

We may have to splice in more of a gap between HoM 5 pg19 & pg20 to give time for things to 'happen,' & to give our heroes more time to put a plan together... Or the 'gathering of heroes' in HoM 5 pg6-pg19(specifically pg13-pg14) takes longer than it does at first glance & not all in one day... Or a combination of both. Something to think about, at least. 

By the way, welcome to the boards, gregorynbaker!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 03:52 am    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
We may have to splice in more of a gap between HoM 5 pg19 & pg20 to give time for things to 'happen,' & to give our heroes more time to put a plan together... Or the 'gathering of heroes' in HoM 5 pg6-pg19(specifically pg13-pg14) takes longer than it does at first glance & not all in one day... Or a combination of both. Something to think about, at least.  
<<<

The recruitment actually takes place over two or three days - Day Two to Day Four - (it depends whether you follow CA5 10 or HOM 5 for the date of the heroes' visit to Steve). The big meeting when they plan everything (and get attacked by the Red Guard) in Day Four's morning. They take over the Shield Helicarrier in the late afternoon. 
Remember they don't have much of a plan until Cyclops gives his in HOM 6 pp5-8 (in the helicarrier). 

(see my analysis for HOM for more details...) 

Then, they arrive at night in Genosha. I don't think it's still the same day, because of timezones. Moreover, there needs to be some time for PULSE 10 to happen (and for Hawkeye to go to Genosha by his own means). So the heroes actually arrive in Genosha in Day Five's late evening. This means that the Helicarrier takes about 18 hours to go from NYC to Genosha. 
This means that HOM 5 pp20-21 is out of sequence : it is set "half an hour before Doom's arrival", hence in Day Five and not Day Four. Thus, it happens between HOM 6 pp1-2 and HOM 6 pp3-4. (HOM pp 5-8 can happen at its natural placement without stretching, so it should probably left there). 

I'll try to post my view on the chronology later today.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 09:31 am    
By JD

OK, here's my take on a global HoM chronology. A few notes : 
- I haven't included the titles I haven't analysed. 
- Chronological placement inside a same title or for a same character is mostly reliable. Most of the rest is guesswork based on temporal clues ; since it doesn't matter that much, it shouldn't be a problem. 
- Remember that we have scenes in NYC, elsewhere in the US, Genosha, Latveria, Wakanda, UK, and Australia. I think I managed not to screw up with the timezones, but it's possible I've made some mistakes. For more precision on what is in each scene, see my analyses. 
- "##" before a scene means that it happened outside of the HoM world. Actual passage of time is thus difficult to assess for these. 
- If you don't dismiss the "one week" line in H3 85, then H3 83-84 are false memories. There is no reason for not placing H3 85-86, however. I've placed these issues at the last possible slot (so that it is compatible with a placement of H3 83-84). 


Out of Continuity 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M 

False flashbacks 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7-FB pp5-6 panel 1 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10-FB pp2-18 
EXILES #70 p9 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 pp1-5 
HOUSE OF M #2-FB p12-13 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #17-FB p20 
WOLVERINE v3 #33-35-FB 

New flashbacks 
EXILES #69-FB pp1-3 

Yet to be placed 
MUTOPIA X #1-4 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #11 


Day Minus One 
HOUSE OF M #1, pp1-6 

Day Zero 
HOUSE OF M #1, pp7-10 
HOUSE OF M #1 pp11-13 
HOUSE OF M #7-FB pp9-12 
HOUSE OF M #1 pp14-17 
HOUSE OF M #1 pp18-21 
HOUSE OF M #3-FB p4 panel 1 
---FIRST REALITY WARP--- 
HOUSE OF M #1 pp22-23 
UNCANNY X-MEN #462 p1 
UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp5-8 
------------------------ 

Day One 
## UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp2-4 
HOUSE OF M #1 p24 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1 pp1-8 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1 pp9-10 
HOUSE OF M #2 pp1-2 
HOUSE OF M #2 p3 
HOUSE OF M #2 p4 
HOUSE OF M #2 pp5-7 
HOUSE OF M #2 p8 
HOUSE OF M #2 pp9-11 
HOUSE OF M #2 pp12-13 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1 pp11-16 
HOUSE OF M #2 p14 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp1-5 
HOUSE OF M #2 p15-17 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp6-7 
HOUSE OF M #2 p18 
HOUSE OF M #2 pp19-22 
HOUSE OF M #3 pp1-11 
WOLVERINE v3 #33 pp1-2 
## UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp9-17 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1 pp17-22 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp8-9 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #83 pp1-20 
WOLVERINE v3 #33 pp3-24 
WOLVERINE v3 #34 pp1-23 
WOLVERINE v3 #35 pp1-3 
## UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp18-19 
HOUSE OF M #3 pp12-13 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #83 pp21-22 
WOLVERINE v3 #35 pp4-5 
WOLVERINE v3 #35 pp6-25 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp10-11 
HOUSE OF M #3 p14 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 pp1-3 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 pp4-6 
## UNCANNY X-MEN #462 pp20-22 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84-FB pp7-10 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp1-3 

Day Two 
UNCANNY X-MEN #462 p23 
UNCANNY X-MEN #463 pp1-5 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 pp7-11 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp1-9 
HOUSE OF M #3 pp15-19 
HOUSE OF M #3 pp20-21 
HOUSE OF M #4 pp3-8 
HOUSE OF M #4 pp9-16 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 p10 
UNCANNY X-MEN #463 pp6-8 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 p12 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 pp6-7 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp12-13 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp4-10 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp11-14 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp15-16 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #84 pp17-22 
UNCANNY X-MEN #463 pp9-14 
HOUSE OF M #4 pp17-22 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp11-13 
HOUSE OF M #5 pp1-5 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp14-17 
UNCANNY X-MEN #463 pp15-22 
UNCANNY X-MEN #464 pp1-7 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp18-19 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #1 pp14-22 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #2 pp1-4 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 p20 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #16 pp21-22 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp1-4 
HOUSE OF M #4 pp1-2 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 pp8-16 

Day Three 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #2 pp5-10 
UNCANNY X-MEN #464 pp8-15 panel 1 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 p13 
UNCANNY X-MEN #464 p15 panel 2 - p19 panel 1 
HOUSE OF M #5 pp6-12 
HOUSE OF M #5 p13 panels 1-3 
HOUSE OF M #5 p13 panels 4-6 
UNCANNY X-MEN #464 p19 panel 2 - p23 
UNCANNY X-MEN #465 pp1-11 panel 3 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 p14 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #2 pp11-14 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 pp17-18 panel 1 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 p1 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 p2-5 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp5-10 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 p11 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #2 pp15-22 
IRON MAN : HOUSE OF M #3 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #2 p18 panel 2-p22 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #3 pp1-8 
HOUSE OF M #5 p13 panels 7-9 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10 p1, 19 panels 1-3 
HOUSE OF M #5 p14 panels 1-3 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 pp6-8 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10 p19 panel 4 - p21 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp12-18 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp19-20 

Day Four 
UNCANNY X-MEN #465 p11 panel 4 - p23 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 pp15-22 panel 3 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #3 pp9-21 panel 3 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #17 pp21-22 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp1-2 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp3-6 
HOUSE OF M #5 p14 panels 4-6 
HOUSE OF M #5 p14 panels 7-9 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 p7 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 pp9-12 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #85 pp13-21 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #86 pp1-11 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #3 p21 panel 4 - p22 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 p22 panel 4 
THE PULSE #10 pp1-4 
HOUSE OF M #5 pp15-19 
THE PULSE #10 p5 
THE PULSE #10 pp6-10 
## EXILES #69 pp5-8 
EXILES #69 pp9-13 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp8-9 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp10-11 
HOUSE OF M #6 pp1-2 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #86 pp12-19 
THE PULSE #10 pp11-17 
THE PULSE #10 pp18-22 
EXILES #69 pp14-22 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #86 pp20-22 

Day Five 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #16 p20 panel 5 - p22 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #17 pp2-17 
HOUSE OF M #5 pp20-21 
HOUSE OF M #6 pp3-4 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp12-18 
HOUSE OF M #6 pp5-8 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #18 pp19-20 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #19 pp1-3 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #19 pp4-22 
EXILES #70 pp1-19 
EXILES #70 pp20-22 
EXILES #71 p2-19 
HOUSE OF M #6 pp9-22 
HOUSE OF M #7 pp1-22 
---SECOND REALITY WARP--- 
HOUSE OF M #7 pp23-25 
EXILES #71 p20 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #17 pp18-20 
NEW X-MEN : ACADEMY X #19 p23 
------------------------- 

Day Six 
HOUSE OF M #8 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #87 pp1-12 

Day Seven 
THE INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #87 pp13-22 


[edit : added H3 87] 
[edit : added NXM:AX 16-19]

Last edited by JD on 08 Nov 2005 05:12 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 10:11 am    
By Somebody

The events of IH 87 (specifically, the aborigine chief's behaviour) makes it harder for IH 83 & 84 to be false memories. 

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 10:43 am    
By JD

Well, then we have to assume the "one week" is actually only "one day". The refugees do come a bit quickly and AIM very swiftly sets up the whole cyborg manufacturing operation, but it kinda fits. 
I've written a placement for these Hulk issues that seems to work in the list above.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 01:33 pm    
By JD

I was trying to find some clues about a day placement for the celebration, and I've found a few inconsistencies regarding THE PULSE HOUSE OF M SPECIAL EDITION. 

First, the double-page spread in HOM 3 is slightly different from what is shown in the Pulse HoM SE. Some articles shown there in HOM 3 were pushed down to other pages. 
What bothered me more is on page 1 : "a charity gala in his honor hosted by the British Royal Family." The rest of the article actually describes the celebration in Genosha as seen in HOM 6 (lots of international dignitaries, organisation by the children of Magnus), not the little party in Braddock Manor shown in UX 463 (and which is announced in page 5). It's a very annoying glitch. 

The chronology in this magazine is a bit of mess, actually. 
Thanks to the Ororo article and its "yesterday" reference, we already know that this edition is cover-date "Day One". "This morning", the british royal familygoes to Braddock manor "for the week-end", so it looks like Friday or Saturday. However, there will be more info about the "Day Five" celebration in Genosha in the "week-end edition of the Pulse". How can this work ? Maybe it is the next week-end edition of the Pulse (which would be at least three days after the celebration...) ? 

By the way, CB, Meggan, MG3 and Psylocke are only reabsorbed by the HoM world on Day One's evening. Are we to supposed there were some dopplegangers for them until then ? Fortunately, we don't have any comic depicting those, because it would be very difficult to chronologise them  


Finally, about this : 
gregorynbaker wrote: 
>>>
Although, with some of the other silly continuity nonsense in this cross-over (Spider-Man: House of M and Genis' coma for example), I guess this would not be outside the realm of possibility. 
<<<

Why is Genis's coma a problem ? He is scheduled to appear if we believe Pulse HoM SE, but he does not actually appear in HOM 6-7. Same thing for Black Panther, Captain Britain and Meggan. I can't see any of them depicted in those issues, and I've looked at it at least ten times.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 02:44 pm    
By gregorynbaker

Black Panther appears on page 11 on House of M #6, Genis appears on page 12 of House of M #6. Captain Britain and Meggan do not appear since Captain Britain's "rebellion" probably cost him his prime rib at the gala and Meggan is "dead" or at least not around.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 03:00 pm    
By JD

Ah, I see. My copy was somehow missing those two pages. 
OK, I'll update my analysis and the chronologies to have correct page ranges.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 06:07 pm    
By Hotcharokey

So far, there have been 2 chronologies posted for House of M and they are both wrong. Tee-hee. 

Both have the Pulse occurring after House of M #5, pp. 15-21, but it cannot occur there. In HOM #5, pp. 15-21, the Red Guard attacks Wolverine and the Heroes, only to receive back their real memories, thanks to Lyla Miller, and join the heroes side. But, in the Pulse #10, Jessica Drew and Nightcrawler of the Red Guard are investigating the scene at Stark Tower where they fought Wolverine earlier. Why would Jessica and Kurt return to SHIELD after learning the truth? I think that the Pulse #10 has to occur between pages 14 and 15 of HOM #5. In order to this to happen, Hawkeye has to disappear twice. First, he disappears after the heroes recruit others in HOM #5, page 14. By this point, he already knows that he should be dead and has a lot to think about. He returns the following morning when the heroes gather in HOM #5, page 15, and are attacked by the Red Guard. Hawkeye disappears a second time after the battle with the Red Guard. 

Also, the amount of days that pass is too many. It seems that the Pulse #10 should happen on the same day as Wolverine visits Stark Tower in HOM #3, pp. 16-22. It doesn't make sense for SHIELD to investigate a "crime scene" days after it occurred. They would lose potential evidence. Therefore, if the Pulse #10 occurs the day before the heroes attack the House of M, then HOM #3, pp, 16-22 should also occur the day before the attack. 

I have come up with the following chronology. It is not complete. It only includes the comics that I have had time to analyze. 

SUNDAY 
Mutopia X #1, pp. 5-8 (Night) Human Terrorist attacks concert in Sapien Town 

MONDAY 
Mutopia X #1, pp. 12-14 (Day) Bishop and Ortega are assigned to protect Kaufman 
Mutopia X #1, pp. 15-20 (Night) Terrorists attack Kaufmans movie premiere 

TUESDAY 
Mutopia X #1, pp. 21-22 (Day) Ortegas watch news coverage of terrorist attack 
Mutopia X #2, pp. 1-10 (Day to Night) Ortega and wife argue about Rite of Transcendence 

WEDNESDAY 
House of M #2 (Morning) 
House of M #3, pp. 1-11 (Morning) Wolverine remembers everything and leaves SHIELD 
Iron Man: House of M #1, pp. 1-6 (Day) Tony Stark loses to father in Sapien Death Match 
Wolverine #33 (Day) Shaw questions Mystique. 
Wolverine #34 (Day) Shaw questions Mystique. 
Wolverine #35, pp. 1-3 (Day) Shaw questions Mystique, then puts her in the brig. 
Mutopia X #2, pp. 11-16 (Day) Ortega and Lara get together 
Iron Man: House of M #1, pp 7-10 (Day) Tony learns that Pym is studying mutant gene 
Mutopia X #2, pp. 17-22 (Evening) Bishop and Ortega investigate terrorists safe house 
Mutopia X #3, pp. 1-4 (Night) Bishop and Ortega investigate terrorists safe house 
Iron Man: House of M #1, pp. 13-22 (Night) Tony learns Pym is missing, searches for him 
Iron Man: House of M #2, pp. 1-5 (Night) Tony escapes Sentinel with his fathers help 
House of M #3, pp. 12-15 (Night) Wolverine learns that Xaviers School does not exist. 
Wolverine #35, pp. 6-25 (Night) Shaw lets Mystique out of the brig. 

THURSDAY 
Mutopia X #3, pp. 5-22 (Morning) Ortega arrives home and fights with wife about Lara. 
Iron Man: House of M #2, pp. 6-10 (Morning) Tony welcomes envoy from House of M 
New X-Men #16, pp. 1-10 (Day) Human terrorists attack New Mutants. Hellions to the rescue 
House of M #3, pp. 16-22 (Day) Wolverine arrives at Stark Tower, attacked by Red Guard 
House of M #4 (Day) Wolverine joins the Humans Resistance Movement. Emma remembers 
New X-Men #16, pp. 11-20 (Day) Mystique orders Hellions to capture human terrorists 
Exiles #69, pp. 9-13 (Day) Exiles return to Earth-616 
House of M #5, pp. 1-14 (Day) Scott Summers remembers his past. Other heroes are recruited 
The Pulse #10, pp. 1-6 (Day) Red Guard investigates Stark Tower. Hawkeye is nearby 
New X-Men #16, p. 21-23 (Day) Hellions arrive in Japan. Laurie kills Quentin 
New X-Men #17, pp. 1-11 (Day) Hellions learn of Project Genesis, SHIELD tortures Hodge 
Iron Man: House of M #2, pp. 11-22. (Day) Tony and Johnny Storm locate Pym 
Iron Man: House of M #3 (Day) Iron Man confronts Magneto, saves lives of mutants 
Mutopia X #4, pp. 1-3 (Night) Kaufmans surgeons transform terrorist into perfect assassin 
Captain America #10 (Night) Heroes return to check on Steve Rogers 
New X-Men #17, 12-20 (Night) New Mutants agree to help Noriko rescue her father 
The Pulse #10, 10-21 (Night) Hawkeye visits Bugle reporter, tells her Wanda changed reality 

FRIDAY 
Exiles #69, pp. 19-22 (Morning in USA) Angel rejects Beak. Proteus possesses Angel 
House of M #5, pp. 15-21 (Day in USA) Red Guard attacks heroes, Hawkeye disappears 
Exiles #70, pp. 1-22 (Day in USA) Proteus kidnaps Beak. Sentinels attack Exiles and Moira 
Cable/Deadpool #16, pp.19-21 (Day) Deadpool bodyslides, finds Sinister holding baby Cable 
House of M #6 (Evening in Genosha) Heroes arrive in Genosha and attack House of M 
House of #7 (Evening in Genosha) Wanda changes reality again 
Mutopia X #4, pp. 4-23 (Day in USA) Terrorist kills Ortegas daughter. Everything goes white 
Exiles #71 (Day in USA) Exiles battle Proteus. Return to Crystal Palace as reality changes 
New X-Men #17, pp. 21-22 (Night in Japan) New Mutants find human terrorists in Japan 
New X-Men #18 (Night in Japan) New Mutants, Hellions learn truth about Project Genesis 
New X-Men #19 (Night in Japan) Kids battle Sunfire when everything goes white 
Cable/Deadpool #17 (Day) Deadpool battles Sinister for baby Cable, everything goes white 

The days of the week are arbitrary, although we are told that the ceremony honoring the House of M occurs on the weekend. As you can see, I think that the new reality starts earlier. In Mutopia X #1, we see what happens both before and after the white event. It seems to me that anything that happens after the white event should not be considered a false memory.

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Posted: 05 Nov 2005 07:16 pm    
By JD

Hotcharokey wrote: 
>>>
Both have the Pulse occurring after House of M #5 
<<<

Er, actually, I have PULSE 10 pp1-4 occuring before HOM 5 pp15-19. So there's no problem : 
- Kat sees the Red Guard investigating Stark Tower (PULSE 10 pp1-4) 
- The Red Guard finally find the heroes and attack them, Hawkeye goes off (HOM 5 pp15-19) 
- Hawkeye decides to go to the Bugle (PULSE 10 p5) 
- Meanwhile, Kat finally arrives to the Bugle (PULSE 10 pp6-9) 
- They meet at night (PULSE 10 pp10-onwards) 

Yeah, the Red Guard still cordonning off Stark Tower two days after the fact (and Kat only noticing it now) doesn't make sense, but nor does sending off Nightcrawler to help Apocalypse (BP4 7) in the middle of that investigation. Actually, even Shaw's decision to trust Mystique in W3 35 does seem a bit hazardous. Obviously, losing his top agent has taken its toll on Shaw's decision-making abilities. 

Compressing everything so that HOM 3 and PULSE 10 are the same day wreaks havoc on any temporal cues in HOM and destroys a few plot points of IM:HOM (of which you seem to have ignored a few pages). It also makes impossible to fit Mutopia X (as you yourself admit) and all of H3 83-86. BP4 7 also seems impossible to make fit. 
Frankly, it poses far more problems than it attempts to resolve.

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 10:42 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Having just plowed my way through the last three pages of this thread in one go, all I can say is: my head is completely f**king spinning. 

I can't really address too much here, as I haven't read most of the books -- but if it hasn't been fully answered already, I'd say to whomever suggested that all of S-M:HOM #1-5 be placed in the false-memory period before HoM #1, that we shouldn't do that. HoM #1 ends with Spider-Man looking down at a sleeping Gwen, and that's where S-M:HOM #1 picks up -- regardless of how good a fit it is, the intent seems clear that S-M:HOM #1 follows directly from the end of HOM #1. 

And as to the end of S-M:HOM#5, how poorly it meshes with Spidey's next appearance in the main HoM series: I'd already pointed out some wiggle-room at the end -- it's stated that some people don't believe Spidey dead. I've now spotted another: the journal used to "out" Spidey as a Sapien is revealed, in #5, to be largely fictional. Peter was writing guilt-induced fantasies -- if the full journal was published, it would be easy for the public to assume that the origin of Spidey's powers was similarly fictional -- and that he was, after all, a mutant, and should once again be looked up to. 

In strict MCP terms, it doesn't matter *how* we rationalize off the poor fit between S-M:HOM and HOM -- just that we place events in order. We don't have to rationalize anything at all -- but it bothers me to see people saying that, because of the poor mesh, it should be placed backwards, into a period of time that would render the entire series fictional and non-canon -- despite the obvious narrative link between S-M:HOM #1 and HOM #1. 

I'd say the better option is just to offer up a list of rationalizations, and suggest that the board at large pick their favorites -- rather than write off a series that's intended to be canon. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 10:49 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'd say the better option is just to offer up a list of rationalizations, and suggest that the board at large pick their favorites -- rather than write off a series that's intended to be canon.  
<<<

I would have to agree...though coming up with some rationalizations may prove difficult. The ending of SM: HOM #5 has Peter now with a full grown head of hair. Which would seem to indicate much time has passed since the main events in the miniseries. Which conflicts with the short passage of time in the main House of M miniseries, (and other HoM miniseries). But he's bald again when we see him "next" in HoM #5... 

Maybe the hair he had in the final part of SM: HOM was a wig? Hair implants?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 11:00 pm    
By jephyork
Director

"Wig" or "art error". or "spider-enhanced metabolism = quick hair growth". Pick your favorite rationalization.  

By the way, I just got through Mutopia X #1-4 and I'm impressed how much information about the real world was presented via the HoM universe. We learned Lara the Illusionists's last name (King), the name of the goon with the red glasses (Machine), and the name of the woman who shot Mr. M in DX #7 (Sashenka Popova). All useful stuff for MCP listings! 

Also, in general I'm really liking David Hine. I look forward to his upcoming Decimation projects. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Nov 2005 04:25 am    
By JD

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
"art error" 
<<<

There are more problems with the passage of time. Reading through it very quickly again, I note a span of at least five days where it should be only three. 

There is of course always the possibility of ignoring entirely those temporal clues, but...

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Posted: 08 Nov 2005 05:14 pm    
By JD

I've added NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16-19 to my timeline in page 4. It seems to fit perfectly.

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Posted: 09 Nov 2005 12:00 am    
By Hotcharokey

Is it just me? 

When I first read HOM #1, I assumed that Peter and Gwen Parker's child was a baby because of the way he cried on the last page of the story, and I quote: "WAAAH!", "WAAGH!", AND "WAAAAGGHH!". 

But, in SPIDER-MAN: HOM, he is clearly not a baby. He can walk and talk. Children who can walk and talk don't cry the same way that babies cry. Could a couple of years have passed between HOM #1 and SPIDER-MAN: HOM #1?

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Posted: 09 Nov 2005 12:31 am
By Col_Fury

House of M: the Day After comes out tomorrow. Hopefully, since it wasn't addressed in HoM 8, someone will mention how much time has passed in the 'real world' while HoM was going on. If not, well, we're stuck where we are. If so, it nails down what's a false memory & what 'really' happened, if only because we'd been given a frame to work within. 

-edit- 

No luck there. Everyone's focused on the mutant problem. Also, I took a look at next week's Mutopia X and it doesn't offer anything, either. It looks like Marvel won't nail down a time frame for us. 

Wolverine presents our starting point, I think. As Paul O. pointed out, his wish was granted by remembering his life, which shorted out the false memories he was given of his life in the HoM. I can't really see him walking around the HoM for a while before this happens. To me, it makes more sense for Wolverine to 'come to' as soon as he woke up. Which of course means the Mexico mission are all false memories, seeing as how they happened before Wolverine wakes up. 

The end point is obvious; the second reality warp. The question is how much time has passed in between? If we need more time for everything to 'happen,' we can just assume either Wolverine or our heroes are doing things off panel that aren't important to the story. 

As far as fitting books in order within HoM, the biggest problem is Genis in New T-Bolts. I have some theories swimming around but I need to re-read some things first. 

False memories should be restricted to FlashBacks, I think. SP: HoM was presented as a linear story, same with the Hulk. There isn't a point where Peter said "I remember when I was schizophrenic" or somesuch, and then we see the story unfold in FB; and the Hulk happened 'currently,' not a historical telling of how he came into power in Australia. Now how neatly this all fits together, well, we'll see what we can do.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 10 Nov 2005 01:10 am    
By Col_Fury

The end of New T-Bolts 10 is just an intro; we see the flash that starts HoM & Genis-Vell flying above a city. 

New T-Bolts 11 starts with Genis-Vell fighting Baron Struckers chunk of the Human Underground Resistance. During the fight Genis discovers his cosmic awareness, which is a surprise to him. 
After theyre defeated, we see Ronan & Killgrave talking about stuff, and Dugan with some more members of the HUR developing a virus that will kill Kree. 
Genis, trying to deal with his new cosmic awareness, freaks out & flies away, prompting Ronan to order a chase. Forge notes that Genis is using powers he hasnt had before. 
After Josten gets a Sentinel the HUR had hidden away, he fights Genis which ends in a coma for him. A Kree says that they can minimize his photonic fluctuations. 
Ronan leaves, Dum Dum says that Josten has been missing for hours, & Killgrave notes that the HUR has been trying to attain Sentinel technology. 

The whole thing lasts less than 24 hours, one night into the next morning. 

Wolverine 33-35s FlashBacks deal with the HUR obtaining a Sentinel, then putting it through a chop-shop. I doubt this is the same Sentinel that Josten was using in New T-Bolts 11, or that its even related. It just means that Killgrave hasnt heard of the Mexico mission seen in W3 33-35. New T-Bolts 11 cannot happen before W3 33-35s FBs, because we saw the flash in New T-Bolts 10. W3 33-35s FBs take place before the flash. 

HoM 6 & 7 has Genis making appearances. In HoM 6, hes announced as a Kree delegate, & in HoM 7 his cosmic awareness is absorbed by Rogue. HoM 6 starts the big fight at Magnetos party which continues into HoM 7, all in the same night, which ends in the Scarlet Witch resetting reality. 

Regardless of Genis coma, New T-Bolts 11 has to happen before HoM 6. His cosmic awareness is discovered in New T-Bolts 11, and he has it in HoM 7. Well just have to assume that the Kree cured him of his coma & delusions BTS so he could attend Magnetos party. 

That being said, I think it would be easiest to place New T-Bolts 11 as far to the front of HoM as possible. New T-Bolts 10 is the reality flash, at night, & New T-Bolts 11 starts at night. It may be best to assume that theyre both on the same night and all possibly before Wolverine wakes up in HoM 2. This would still be happening, & not a false history; Meaning reality is re-set, Genis discovers his cosmic awareness at night while Wolverine sleeps, Genis falls into a coma early in the morning, still while Wolverine is asleep. Later that day/morning Wolverine wakes up & his memories short out, and he realizes that reality has been re-set. 

Any thoughts?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 11 Nov 2005 10:23 am    
By Hotcharokey

Ok, I think that I have figured out how to make Spider-Man: House of M fit into the HOM chronology 

Here goes nothing: 

DAY 1 (SATURDAY) 

Spider-Man: HOM #1, pp. 1-7 (Morning) Peter Parker wakes up, works out, and shaves his head 
Spider-Man: HOM #1, pp. 8-12 (Day) Captain Stacy does presentation for law enforcement 
Spider-Man: HOM #1, pp. 13-14 (Day) Gwen oversees takeover of Osborne Industries 
Spider-Man: HOM #1, pp. 15-20 (Night) Peters family throws him a surprise birthday party. 
Spider-Man: HOM #1, pp. 21-22 (Night) Green Goblin visits Jameson. 

DAY 2 (SUNDAY) 

Spider-Man: HOM #2 (Morning) J. Jonah Jameson reveals Peters secret and destroys him. 

DAY 3 (MONDAY) 

(Peter is in hiding.) 

DAY 4 (TUESDAY) 

Spider-Man: HOM #3 (Day) Peter Parker visits hospital patient, then battles Rhino. 
Spider-Man: HOM #3 (Evening) Pete returns home to apologize to his family 
Spider-Man: HOM #3 (Night) Green Goblin is captured & revealed to be Peter Parker 
Spider-Man: HOM #4 (Night) Peter escapes from his captures & battles Sentinel 

DAY 5 (WEDNESDAY) 

Spider-Man: HOM #4 (Day) Gwen convinces her father and Ben to take back Peters journal 
Spider-Man: HOM #4 (Night) Gwen, her father, and Ben steal Petes journal from JJJ 

DAY 6 (THURSDAY) 

SM: HOM #5, pp. 1-6. [Day] Gwen, Captain Stacy, Ben, and May read and discuss the contents of Peters journal. 

(Behind the scenes, Peter contacts his family. They decide to get together to talk about everything that has happened. They spend some time outdoors. Peter only recently shaved his head and hopes that most of the general public do not recognize him with his new look. Every time that he was attacked by a crowd previously, he was wearing his Spider-Man costume.) 

HOM #5, pp. 6-12. [Day] Peter and his family (Gwen, Richie, Ben, and May) are walking around New York City when one of his fans recognizes him. When the heroes (Danny Rand, Hawkeye, Felicia Hardy, Luke Cage, Emma Frost, Layla Miller, Wolverine, Scott Summers, Cloak, and Marc Spector) arrive on the scene, Layla uses her powers to make Peter remember his real life. Spider-Man joins the fight against Magneto. 

HOM #5, pp. 15-21. [Day] SHIELDs Red Guard (Jessica Drew, Mystique, Rogue, Nightcrawler, and the Toad) attacks the heroes (Wolverine, Emma Frost, Scott Summers, Luke Cage, Danny Rand, Cloak, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, Matt Murdock, Dr. Strange, Spider-Man, Kitty Pryde, Tony Stark, Carol Danvers, Felicia Hardy, and Layla Miller). The battle ends quickly when Laylas powers cause the members of the Red Guard to remember their real lives. Hawkeye disappears. The heroes decide to confront Magneto in Genosha. 

(It is now the night before the attack against the House of M. Realizing that reality could be altered tomorrow, the heroes are allowed to leave to take care of unfinished business and say their goodbyes. When Pete learns that humans are being rounded up and relocated because of him, his guilt gets the best of him. He leaves, hoping to help some of the humans. Hawkeye appears in The Pulse at this time.) 

SM: HOM #5, pp. 7-12. [Evening] When Spider-Man arrives at a homeless shelter and rescues a group of humans from mutant soldiers, the humans attack him. 

SM: HOM #5, pp. 13-17. [Night] Peter calls his Uncle Ben, who meets him on a bridge. Observing the rioting below them, which is the fallout from Peters actions, they fake Spider-Mans death, hoping to stop the rioting and the violence. 

(Peter rejoins the heroes and accompanies those who decide to check on Steve Rogers.) 

CA #10. [Night] Wolverine, Luke Cage, Emma Frost, and Peter Parker keep an eye on Rogers as he walks home. 

DAY 7 (FRIDAY) 

SM: HOM #5, p. 18. [Early Morning] A picture appears on the front page of the Daily Bugle, showing Spider-Man hanging from the bridge, the victim of an apparent suicide. 

(Peter Parker has lost control of his life and needs to regain some control. As soon as the Bugle comes out, Cloak transports Peter to Genosha. Peter leaves a copy of the Bugle and his note where Magneto can find it. Even though the heroes are planning to attack Magneto, they allow Peter to do this because they all realize that Peter needs to do this. They also know that Peters actions will not affect their plans. Cloak returns Peter to New York.) 

(Knowing that he may never see Gwen, Richie, and Ben again, and knowing that he is supposed to be dead, Peter takes his family into the country in order to make the most of the last few hours that he has left with them. Since his family does not like his shaved head, he wears a wig and a baseball cap to make them happy.) 

SM: HOM #5, pp. 19-21. [Morning] Hulk Hogan, the Rhino, the Vulture, J. Jonah Jameson, and Norman Osborn react to the news of Spider-Mans death. In Genosha, Magneto finds a copy of the Bugle in a web with a note telling him to ease up on the humans if he wants Spider-Man to stay dead. Elsewhere, Peter and his family are vacationing by a lake. 

(Gwen mentions that there are people who think that Spider-Man is still alive and who claim to have seen him. She could be repeating what she just heard on the radio. Spider-Mans death would be big news and would generate a lot of news coverage.) 

(When it is time for the heroes to leave for Genosha, Cloak arrives at the lake and teleports Peter back to the location where the heroes are gathered.) 

HOM #6 [Evening in Genosha] Heroes arrive in Genosha and attack House of M 

HOM #7 [Evening in Genosha] Wanda changes reality again

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 01:25 am    
By Col_Fury

Yeah... 

In HoM 6 Luke tries to call Jessica, then he asks Spider-Man if he tried to get ahold of Mary Jane, to which he says no. But nothing is said of Gwen & co, because Spider-Man did(in this theory) set those affairs in order. There's no mention of how much time has passed between HoM 5 & 6 for the heroes, because it wasn't important to this book.(& it's written by Bendis) 

So you're saying that a chronology placement for Spider-Man would look something like this... 

Spider-Man 
... 
HoM 1 
SM: HoM 1 
SM: HoM 2 
SM: HoM 3 
SM: HoM 4 
SM: HoM 5 -pg6 
HoM 5 
SM: HoM 5 pg7-pg17 
CA4 10 
SM: HoM 5 pg18- 
HoM 6 
HoM 7 
... 

This would mean that two different groups visited Captain America. The first group being Wolverine, Cyclops, Emma Frost, Cloak, & Layla. The second being Wolverine, Spider-Man, Luke Cage, Emma Frost, & some other person who's back-of-the-head I don't recognize. 

Or could it mean that SM: HoM pg7-pg17 take place between HoM 5 pg12-pg15, and that the visit to Captain America seen in CA4 10 is the same visit seen in HoM 5? Again, there's no mention of how much time it took to find, 'wake up', & gather the heroes in HoM 5. If that's the case, Spider-Man's entry could look like this: 

Spider-Man 
... 
HoM 1 
SM: HoM 1 
SM: HoM 2 
SM: HoM 3 
SM: HoM 4 
SM: HoM 5 -pg6 
HoM 5 -pg12 
SM: HoM 5 pg7-pg17 
CA4 10 
HoM 5 pg15- 
SM: HoM 5 pg18- 
HoM 6 
HoM 7 
... 

I'd be more inclined to go with the first option, given that Steve is wearing different clothes in the two visits, and that it's daytime in HoM 5 and nighttime in CA4 10. But why visit Cap twice? Hey, it's Captain America! I'd visit him twice...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 14 Nov 2005 01:33 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Quote: 
>>>
I'd be more inclined to go with the first option, given that Steve is wearing different clothes in the two visits, and that it's daytime in HoM 5 and nighttime in CA4 10. But why visit Cap twice? Hey, it's Captain America! I'd visit him twice... 
<<<

I agree. 

Perhaps after they visited Steve Rogers and decided not to recruit him, they had second thoughts. In HOM #5, when the heroes are watching Rogers, Wolverine says, "Too bad, we could'a used him." After they finished gathering the heroes, Wolverine may have brought up the benefits of recruiting Rogers. Even though he is old, Captain America has experience and knowledge that could have helped the heroes. So, they paid him a second visit, but ultimately chose to leave him alone.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 02:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

We haven't had any action on this thread for nearly a week, so I figured dust has settled enough to attempt a recap. I've tried to incorporate various comments and sometimes conflicting chronologies submitted by posters, plus some of my own notes, into a comprehensive accounting of HOM and its immediate aftermath. 

I have not included the following issues, as the general consensus seems to be that they depict nothing but "false flashbacks" that pre-date that first flash of white in the House of M reality: 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1-3 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #83-86 
SECRETS OF THE HOUSE OF M #1-3 
Are we agreed about excluding these from character chronologies? 

I have not included anything from PULSE: HOUSE OF M SPECIAL, since I know nothing about that book. I understand, though, that it contains canonical material...right? If so, how would that fit in? 

Anyway, here goes. Pay close attention to time references as I'm not sure they all reconcile. Also, I need some page/panel ranges to substitute for the "x"s in SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #4. Speaking of pages and panels, there were some conflicts between various chronologies, so for some titles I'm not sure I have those citations correct. And I have an unknown character reference in HOM 3. 

For those who care, I have this occurring in the second half of September, following the start of a new school year at the Xavier Institute which kicked off with the student photos seen in the ACADEMY X YEARBOOK. (Speaking of students...who's the blue spikey-headed mutant seen in X 177? That student isn't in the yearbook.) 


Sunday 
HOUSE OF M #1 (7-17) 
One day. This section occurs after NX:AXY 1/2 and several weeks after NX:AXY 1 (19). The Astonishing X-Men team meet the Avengers at the new Avengers Mansion, which Carol Danvers (now reclaiming her Ms. Marvel moniker)has not seen before now, and which is still being kept a secret from the general public. The Avengers gathered include new and old members, including She-Hulk. Sentry is here, which places this segment after A4 10. Charles Xavier, who has physically come to New York from Genosha, has called the teams and Dr. Strange together to discuss the threat and fate of the Scarlet Witch. The heroes decide to go see Wanda. In Genosha, Quicksilver appeals to Magneto to stop the Avengers and X-Men from killing Wanda, but he refuses. We see people wearing jackets in New York. 
HOUSE OF M #7  FB 
The same day as HOM 1 (7-17). In Genosha, Quicksilver, agonizing over the fate of his sister, tries to talk her into creating a world in which everyone will be happy. Full moon. 
HOUSE OF M #1 (18-23) 
The same day as HOM 1 (7-17). The Astonishing X-Men, the Avengers, Dr. Strange, and Xavier arrive in Genosha. As they approach Wanda, she alters reality. 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #9 (20p5-22) 
It must be the same day as HOM 1 (18-24). Killgrave visits Melissa at her ESU dorm and commands her to stop inquiring about Atlas and Genis and attempts to rape her but is skewered by the new Swordsman, or so it seems. ESU is in session. Green shrubs in New York. 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #10 
The same day as TB 9. It is ten days before TB2 12. With the skewering scene being nothing but a deception, Killgrave possesses Code Blue and citizens of New York to attack Melissa and the Swordsman and thirteen ESU students die in the melee. Killgrave makes it appear that Songbird killed the students. Controlled by Killgrave, the Thunderbolts arrive and battle Melissa and Swordsman. Swordsman slices Atlas, who explodes from the release of ionic energy. Much destruction ensues, then Swordsman skewers both Mach-IV and Genis. Wandas reality warping kicks in and transforms the city. 
MUTOPIA X #1 (1-3) 
The same day as HOM 1 (8-24). Wandas reality warping kicks in. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #462 (1-4) 
The same day as HOM 1 (18-24). As the XSE team battles the Weaponeers, who are again trying to take over Zanzibar, Wandas reality warping causes everything to fade away, leaving Psylocke and Rachel in a white hot room outside of reality. 

Monday 
HOUSE OF M #1 (24) 
The early morning after HOM 1 (18-23). In the alternate reality of the House of M, Peter Parker wakes from a bed he shares with Gwen Stacy to deal with a crying baby. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #1 
The same day after HOM 1 (24). Peter Parker wakes up, works out, and shaves his head. Captain Stacy does a presentation for law enforcement. Gwen oversees takeover of Osborn Industries. That night, Peters family throws him a surprise birthday party and Green Goblin visits J. Jonah Jameson. 

Tuesday 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #2 
The morning after SM:HOM 1. Jameson reveals Peters secret and destroys him. 
MUTOPIA X #1 (4-8)One night. Human terrorist attacks concert in Sapien Town. 

Wednesday 
MUTOPIA X #1 (12-20) 
The day after MUTX 1 (5-8). Bishop and Ortega are assigned to protect Kaufman. That night, terrorists attack Kaufmans movie premiere. 

Thursday 
MUTOPIA X #1 (21-22) 
The day after MUTX 1 (12-20). The Ortegas watch news coverage of terrorist attack. 
MUTOPIA X #2 (1-10) 
The same day as MUTX 1 (21-22). Ortega and wife argue about the Rite of Transcendence. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #3 
The day after SM:HOM 2. Peter Parker visits a hospital patient, then battles the Rhino. That evening, Peter returns home to apologize to his family and the Green Goblin is captured and revealed to be Peter Parker. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #4 (1-x) 
The same night as SM:HOM 3. Peter escapes from his captors and battles a Sentinel. 

Friday 
HOUSE OF M #2 
Probably the morning after SM:HOM 4 rather than the morning after HOM 1. Logan (finally) awakens in the House of M reality created by Wanda. He remembers the original mainstream MU, but others around him are living lives with pasts in the new reality. We see scenes featuring the new realitys Cap, Cyclops, Emma, Dazzler, Wonder Man, Warbird, Gambit, Kitty, Cage, Sentry, Dr. Strange, Colossus, Beast, Hank Pym, Wasp, Storm, and Mystique. 
HOUSE OF M #3 (1-11) 
The same morning as HOM 2. Logan tries to figure out whats going on as hes confronted with a brand new reality. 
WOLVERINE v3 #33 
The same morning as HOM 3 (1-11). Aboard the Helicarrier above New York, Shaw looks at footage of the scene depicted in HOM 3 (3-6). Four hours later, Shaw interrogates Mystique about an operation she had in Mexico with Logan two weeks ago in the altered reality. 
WOLVERINE v3 #34 
The same afternoon as W3 33. Mystique and Shaw discuss more past events of the altered reality in Shaws office aboard the Helicarrier above New York. 
WOLVERINE v3 #35 (1-3) 
The same afternoon as W3 34. Shaw orders Mystique to be incarcerated. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1 (1-12) 
One day. Tony Stark loses to his father in the Sapien Death Match. Tony learns that Pym is studying the mutant gene and orders him to stop his research. 
MUTOPIA X #2 (11-16) 
The day after MUTX 2 (1-10). Ortega and Lara get together. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #4 (x-xx) 
The day after SM:HOM 4 (1-x). Gwen convinces her father and Ben to take back Peters journal. That night, Gwen, her father, and Ben steal Petes journal from Jameson. 
MUTOPIA X #2 (17-22) 
The same night as MUTX 2 (11-16). Bishop and Ortega investigate a terrorists safe house. 
MUTOPIA X #3 (1-4) 
The same night as MUTX 2 (17-22). Bishop and Ortega continue to investigate a terrorists safe house. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1 (13-22) 
The same night as IM:HOM 1 (1-12). Tony learns Pym is missing and searches for him. Tony storms a Sapien Resistance meeting but everybody is then attacked by sentinels. Howard hacks into a Sentinels systems and starts talking to Tony. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #2 (1-5) 
The same night as IM:HOM 1 (13-22). Tony escapes the Sentinel with his fathers help. 
HOUSE OF M #3 (12-15) 
The same night as HOM 3 (1-11). Logan goes to Westchester and discovers that the Institute is a private home occupied by strangers. Theres no trace of a Charles Xavier. 
WOLVERINE v3 #35 (4-25) 
The same night as W3 35 (1-3). Aboard the Helicarrier, Shaw gathers more data about the death of Nick Fury. Mystique confesses she set up the whole Mexico thing. Shaw releases her and sends her to get Logan back. 

Saturday 
MUTOPIA X #3 (5-22) 
The morning after MUTX 3 (1-4). Ortega arrives home and fights with wife about Lara. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #2 (6-10) 
The morning after IM:HOM 2 (1-5). Tony welcomes an envoy from the House of M. The envoy bullies him into giving the Vision project to the House of M, and Howard reams Tony for doing so. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #5 (1-6) 
The day after SM:HOM 4 (x-xx). Gwen, Captain Stacy, Ben, and May read and discuss the contents of Peters journal. 
[BTS] 
The same day as SM:HOM 5 (1-6). Peter contacts his family. They decide to get together to talk about everything that has happened. They spend some time outdoors. Peter only recently shaved his head and hopes that most of the general public does not recognize him with his new look. (Every time that he was attacked by a crowd previously, he was wearing his Spider-Man costume.) 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16 (1-10) 
One day. In the House of M reality, the Hellions are SHIELD agents who save the day when human terrorists attack the New Mutant Leadership Institute. 
HOUSE OF M #3 (16-22) 
It is supposed to be two days after HOM 3 (12-15). Logan tries to look up Tony Stark at Stark Tower, but Logans SHIELD unit (consisting of an altered Mystique, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Spider-Woman, and ??) confront him. He escapes but is swallowed up by Cloak and is transported to a place where he sees Cage, Hawkeye, and their allies, which include Black Cat, Iron Fist, Moon Knight. 
HOUSE OF M #4 
The same day as HOM 3 (16-22). It is supposed to be two days after HOM 1 (7-17). Cage and Hawkeye question Logan, but Logans tracker attracts Sentinels and Cloak transports everyone present to the Kingpins office. Logan tells the group about his reality, including Hawkeyes death, and they believe him because a girl, Layla, is present who also remembers the mainstream MU. Cloak transports the group to the Summers residence in Connecticut, where they encounter Emma Frost. With Laylas help, Logan gets Emma to realize that theyre in an altered reality. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16 (11-20) 
One day. In the House of M reality, the Hellions are SHIELD agents who save the day when human terrorists attack the New Mutant Leadership Institute. When the Hellions are given the assignment of tracking down human terrorists to a hidden base in Tokyo, Noriko is cut from the squad because her father leads the resistance movement. Noriko gets David Alleyne and his friends to agree to help her sneak her father out before the raid, but allies Laurie and Sean Garrison turn out to be SHIELD moles. 
EXILES #69 (9-13) 
One day. The Exiles return to Earth-616, only to discover that its been turned into the House of M reality. 
HOUSE OF M #5 (1-14p6) 
The same day as HOM 4. Led by Emma and Cages resistance force, Layla restores the true memories of Scott Summers. Peter Parker and his family (Gwen, Richie, Ben, and May) are walking around New York City when one of his fans recognizes him. When the heroes (Danny Rand, Hawkeye, Felicia Hardy, Luke Cage, Emma Frost, Layla Miller, Wolverine, Scott Summers, Cloak, and Marc Spector) arrive on the scene, Layla uses her powers to make Peter remember his real life. Spider-Man joins the fight against Magneto. Layla also restores the memories of Kitty Pryde, Stephen Strange, Carol Danvers, Tony Stark, Matt Murdock, and Jennifer Walters. 
PULSE #10 (1-6) 
The same day as HOM 5 (1-14). SHIELDs Red Guard investigates Stark Tower. Hawkeye is nearby. 
HOUSE OF M #5 (14p7-21) 
The same day as PULSE 10 (1-6). The heroes spy on Steve Rogers but decide not to recruit him because of his age. The heroes (Wolverine, Emma Frost, Scott Summers, Luke Cage, Danny Rand, Cloak, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, Matt Murdock, Dr. Strange, Spider-Man, Kitty Pryde, Tony Stark, Carol Danvers, Felicia Hardy, and Layla Miller) gather, but the Red Guard (Jessica Drew, Mystique, Rogue, Nightcrawler, and Toad) find them and attack. The battle ends quickly when Laylas powers cause the members of the Red Guard to remember their real lives. Hawkeye disappears and the heroes decide to confront Magneto in Genosha. In Genosha, Magneto awaits Dooms arrival in a half hour and guests are expected soon. Magneto stands at Xaviers memorial. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16 (21-23) 
The same day as NX 16 (11-20). The Hellions arrive in Japan. When Quentin Quire discovers the moles, Laurie forces him to kill himself. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #17 (1-11) 
The same day as NX 16 (21-23). The Hellions launch their attack on the Tokyo terrorists and Noriko intervenes when Kevin Ford and Josh Foley threaten human resister Cameron Hodge, but Hodge convinces Noriko to kill him to avoid torture. The Garrisons try to cover for Quires death and Tag gets upset. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #2 (11-22) 
The same day as IM:HOM 2 (6-10). Tony monitors the investigations of the envoy, then tries summoning the will to destroy his armor. He finds Johnny Storm in the armor and Johnny joins him. News footage shows that Pym has been caught. Tony and Johnny rescue Pym but are chased by easily dispatched Sentinels and mutant guards. Pym activates an anti-mutant bomb which liquefies the mutant guards. Pym reveals that hundreds of these bombs are deployed in Chicago. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #3 
The same day as IM:HOM 2 (11-22). Tony, Johnny, and other robot-fighters race against the clocks to neutralize the bombs. The House of M sends the Visions to help, but theyre taken over by Howard, who reveals this was all a plan to kill Magneto. Magneto shows up and kills Howard. Tony refuses to kill Magneto and then helps clear the damage. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #462 (5-23) 
One day. The effects of Wandas reality-warping reach Otherworld, where Roma concludes that its a trans-temporal tsunami that will end all rational existence. Roma sends Brian Braddock to Earth-616 and gives him forty-eight hours to try to stop the source of the threat. Betsy and Rachel see an image of Brian flying off with Jamie Braddock, who Rachel has been seeing for months. Jamie, who notes that he has bound the womens lives and fates together, removes them from the white hot room to save the day on a reality-altered earth. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #463 (1-5) 
The same day as UX 462. Betsy and Rachel land in the House of M reality and their memories of the real MU are quickly replaced by false alternate reality memories. There they see Brian, whose memories are also altered. 
[BTS] 
The same night as HOM 5 (14-21). Realizing that reality could be altered tomorrow, the heroes are allowed to leave to take care of unfinished business and say their goodbyes. When Pete learns that humans are being rounded up and relocated because of him, his guilt gets the best of him. He leaves, hoping to help some of the humans. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #5 (7-12) 
The same night as HOM 5 (14-21). When Spider-Man arrives at a homeless shelter and rescues a group of humans from mutant soldiers, the humans attack him. Peter calls his Uncle Ben, who meets him on a bridge. Observing the rioting below them, which is the fallout from Peters actions, they fake Spider-Mans death, hoping to stop the rioting and the violence. 
MUTOPIA X #4 (1-3) 
The same night as MUTX 3 (5-22). Kaufmans surgeons transform a terrorist into a perfect assassin. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10 
The same night as SM:HOM 5 (7-12). An elderly House of M Steve Rogers attends a dinner held in his honor, then runs afoul of young mutants on the way home. As he nears home, he is watched by Logan, Cage, Emma, and Peter Parker, who has rejoined the heroes. Apparently, the heroes are having second thoughts about recruiting Steve. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #17 (12-20) 
The same night as NX 17 (1-11). Now convinced of the nefarious nature of SHIELDs top-secret Project Genesis, Noriko, David, and their friends find the place where Norikos father is. 
PULSE #10 
The same night as HOM 5 (14-21). Stunned at the revelation of reality, Hawkeye goes to the Daily Bugle and talks to Kat Farrell about it. He aims to kill Magneto and Wanda tomorrow. 

Sunday 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #5 (18) 
The early morning after SM:HOM 5 (7-12). A picture appears on the front page of the Daily Bugle, showing Spider-Man hanging from the bridge, the victim of an apparent suicide. 
[BTS] 
The same morning as SM:HOM 5 (18). Peter Parker has lost control of his life and needs to regain some control. As soon as the Bugle comes out, Cloak transports Peter to Genosha. Peter leaves a copy of the Bugle and his note where Magneto can find it. Even though the heroes are planning to attack Magneto, they allow Peter to do this because they all realize that Peter needs to do this. They also know that Peters actions will not affect their plans. Cloak returns Peter to New York. Knowing that he may never see Gwen, Richie, and Ben again, and knowing that he is supposed to be dead, Peter takes his family into the country in order to make the most of the last few hours that he has left with them. Since his family does not like his shaved head, he wears a wig and a baseball cap to make them happy. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #5 (19-21) 
The same morning as SM:HOM 5 (18). Hulk Hogan, the Rhino, the Vulture, J. Jonah Jameson, and Norman Osborn react to the news of Spider-Mans death. In Genosha, Magneto finds a copy of the Bugle in a web with a note telling him to ease up on the humans if he wants Spider-Man to stay dead. Elsewhere, Peter and his family are vacationing by a lake. 
[BTS] 
The same morning as SM:HOM 5 (19-21). Gwen mentions that there are people who think that Spider-Man is still alive and who claim to have seen him. She could be repeating what she just heard on the radio. Spider-Mans death would be big news and would generate a lot of news coverage. When it is time for the heroes to leave for Genosha, Cloak arrives at the lake and teleports Peter back to the location where the heroes are gathered. 
EXILES #69 (19-22) 
The morning after EXILES 69 (9-13). Beak discovers that Angel is a super-model and when he finds her he learns that she doesnt know him at all and that their babies do not exist. After their encounter, Angels body is seized by Mutant X. A newspaper reports of a Von Doom/Magneto summit tomorrow. 
EXILES #70 
The same day as EXILES 69 (19-22). Mutant X, in Angels body, snatches Beak and the other Exiles meet Mutant Xs mother, House of Ms Moira MacTaggert. After subduing a couple of Sentinels, the team encounters Mutant X. Green trees in New York. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #16 (19p5-21) 
One day. For Wade, Sam, and Theresa, it appears to be the same day as C&DP 16 (15-19), but the trio may be leaping forward in time as they jump from reality to reality. Deadpool enters a reality in which a baby Nathan is in the care of Mr. Sinister. 
NEW X-MEN #17 (21-22) 
The day after NX 17 (1-20); its night in Japan. The New Mutants find human terrorists in Japan. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #18 
The same day as NX 17. At the New Mutants Leadership Institute, Shan and Doug discover that Dr. Garrison is a SHIELD agent and that he caused Quires death. Garrison confronts them. In Tokyo, the New Mutants fight Pierce and the human resistance until Norikos father tells them about Project Genesis. The Hellions show up and fight the New Mutants. Surge forces Illyana to teleport everyone to the Project Genesis labs, where they see the horror of the project, designed to turn humans into mutants. When the New Mutants and the Hellions voice opposition to the project, Laurie tips her hand and uses her power to order the gang to kill one another. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #19 (1-16) 
The same day as NX 18. The New Mutants and Hellions mop the floor with one another and a few of them are killed before Cessily is forced to slay Laurie. Sophie clears away the pheromones and is killed by Pierce. Moonstar kills Pierce. 
HOUSE OF M #6 
The same day as HOM 5 (20-21); its a weekend evening in Genosha. Logans crew boards the helicarrier and head for Genosha, where leaders such as TChalla, Ororo, Namor, and Genis are gathering for a special ceremony for Magneto. As Dr. Strange prepares to meet Wanda on the astral plane and the rest of their compatriots attack the ceremony to keep Magneto occupied, Cloak, Emma, and Layla try to find Xavier. They encounter Xaviers grave only to discover that hes not in it. Both a full moon and a waning crescent moon are shown. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #463 (6-22) 
The day after UX 463 (1-5). Brian dreams of the real MU and tells Meggan, Betsy, and Rachel about it. With real memories flashing to him, Brian attacks Courtney, seeing her as Saturnyne. Brian and crew hear about Wolverine going rogue from SHIELD. They then go on a mission to investigate some mutant fugitives being pursued by the Marauders in the West Country. There they encounter Nocturne. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #464 
The same day as UX 463 (6-22). Meggan manifests the forms of those who sent Brian on his mission to stop the House of M reality from destroying the universe, but Brian still cant remember his mission. After Betsey and Rachel encounter a quantum tear in creation in which reality is unraveling, Brians memory is restored. The Marauders pursue Nocturne and Karima shows up to slay Brian and his family for treason. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #465 
The same day as UX 464. Captain UK and Justicer Bull show up to help Captain Britain and company battle the Marauders, Karima, and the Sentinels. When the Sentinels channel their power through Karima for one big blast, Rachel and Betsey repel the blast, deflecting it into the rift in reality. This action wipes out Karima and the Sentinels, but the rift still needs to be closed. Meggan sacrifices herself to close the breech. 
EXILES #71 (1-19) 
The same day as EXILES 70. The Exiles battle Mutant X. Moira shoots Mutant X, forcing him to leave Angels body. He enters Mimics body and, glimpsing alternate realities in Calvins memories, leaves Earth 616. Blink injects the dying Angel with a serum to regenerate tissue, but Heather pulls her and the other Exiles back to the crystal Palace, leaving Beak and Angel on Earth 616. 
HOUSE OF M #7 
The same day as HOM 6. As the heroes battle Genoshan forces, Strange discovers that it was Pietro, not Magneto, who convinced Wanda to reshape reality. Hawkeye shoots Wanda with an arrow and is destroyed by her fabricated son. Magneto arrives and cuts down Pietro for what hes done. Wanda takes Magneto to task and decides to remake reality again, this time with no mutants. 
MUTOPIA X #4 (4-23) 
The day after MUTX 4 (1-3). Terrorist kills Ortegas daughter and everything goes white. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #19 (17-23) 
The same day as NX 19 (1-16) and HOM 7. The New Mutants and Hellions free the human prisoners of Project Genesis. Illyana teleports the prisoners to safety as everyone else faces down the newly arrived Sunfire and his forces in a last stand. The world goes white around them. 
EXILES #71 (20) 
The same day as EXILES 70 (1-19) and HOM 7. The world goes white around Barnell and Angel. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #17 
The same day as C&D 16 (19-21). We see scenes from HOM 2 in this issue. Wade, Sam, and Theresa may have shifted forward in time in the mainstream MU while hopping from reality to reality. The Mr. Sinister of the alternate reality shows the trio around and explains his lifes work. Sinister captures Wade, planning to use his DNA to accelerate the maturation of baby Nathan. Deadpool escapes and takes the child, but cannot teleport away as Wandas reality warping reaches this reality. 

Monday 
HOUSE OF M: THE DAY AFTER #1 (1-2) 
Early the morning after HOM 7. Fred Dukes awakens in his room at an Atlantic City casino, only to discover that hes lost his Blob power. 
HOUSE OF M #8 (1-6p5) 
The same morning as HOM:DA 1 (1-2). Layla Miller is woken by her mother on a school day. The Avengers gather in Avengers Tower; some remember the HOM reality and others (those not protected yesterday by Emmas psychic and Stranges mystical defense) dont. Peter Parker is haunted by his memories of the HOM reality. Dr. Strange arrives, in poor shape. Emma Frost awakens on the lawn at the Xavier Institute and hears a scream. Green grass and trees in New York. 
NEW X-MEN #20 (4) 
The same morning as HOM 8 (1-6). It is two years after NX 20-FB. Emma rises to her feet and runs for the Institute building. 
HOUSE OF M #8 (6p6-9) 
The same morning as NX 20 (4). Emma finds the students in a panic as many have lost their powers, including Sofia. Nightcrawler teleports outdoors and wakens Logan, whose memories of his entire life have returned. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN #20 (5-15) 
The same morning as HOM 8 (6-9). The sound of screaming awakens Kevin Ford, who encounters chaos. Dallas Gibson has lost his Specter power and Kevin, thinking his power gone too, touches Laurie and withers her right arm. Melody Guthrie loses her Aero power and Hydro drowns in the Institute pool. Emma summons the Stepford Cuckoos as other New Mutants and Hellions waken. 
HOUSE OF M #8 (10) 
The same morning as NX 20 (5-15). Emma heads to Cerebra to check on the mutant population. 
NEW X-MEN #20 (16-17) 
The same morning as HOM 8 (10). It is 2 days before NX 20 (18-21) and two weeks before NX 20 (22-23). In the Cerebra room, Emma and the Stepford Cuckoos issue a mental command to put all the students to sleep to quell the chaos. 
HOUSE OF M #8 (11-19) 
The same morning as NX 20 (16-17). This segment occurs during the week before XG 1. It occurs before FOUR 22 since Jessica Jones baby is supposed to be born after M-Day. Cerebra shows the X-Men that most of the mutants of earth have lost their powers. Tag, Moonstar, and Iceman are three of those mutants. The students are awake again. TV news reports about the loss of mutants come in from around the globe; speculated causes include a virus and an anti-mutant government program. The Avengers watch the reports and Strange dwells on his failure to stop Wanda. Upon hearing of someone at the ruins of Avengers Mansion, the Avengers go there and find a Hawkeye costume pinned to a wall with arrows. 
HOUSE OF M: THE DAY AFTER #1 (3-31) 
The same day as HOM 8 (11-19). Without his power, the Blob wants to die. As Trish Tilby reports, Bishop checks out the situation in Mutant Town and assists de-powered mutants with Charlotte Jones. Terrorists bomb the X-Corp headquarters in Paris. Scott orders all X-Corp facilities closed and offers the Institute as a sanctuary for remaining mutants. In the War Room, the X-Men review the status of specific mutants; Thornn and Callisto are also among those whove lost their powers. The president declares a national emergency and activates the Office of National Emergency (O*N*E). Val Cooper is ordered to join the program. Madrox, Rahne, and Guido set out to help the ex-mutants of Mutant Town. Scott tells Kurt to assemble a squad and reconnoiter with Captain Britain in London to investigate the nature of Wandas chaos wave. Scott comforts Emma, who cannot locate Xavier. Lorna comforts Bobby. Roger MacEwan is murdered. MI-13 orders Pete Wisdom to find Captain Britain and respond to the situation in London. Sage confirms that the genes of affected mutants have been erased. Beast refuses to take a call from Trish. When Scott asks Storm to return from Africa, Ororo decides to stay there. Pietro wallows in despair as a bum in Manhattan. In Los Angeles, Jubilee laments the loss of her power. Green trees in New York. 
NEW EXCALIBUR #1 
Probably the same night as HOM:DA 1 (3-31). After a performance at a London club, Dazzler fights a group of ersatz X-Men and left for dead. Nightcrawler and his squad (Kitty, Rachel, Betsy, Talia, and Cain) arrive via X-jet at the ruins of Braddock Manor, where they reunite with Brian. Wisdom shows up and reports Alisons murder. The group reports to the crime scene and restarts Alisons heart, then takes her to a hospital. The investigation leads the team to Frasers Bank, where Brian tries in vain to convince his comrades that Courtney Ross is Sat-Yr-9. There, Wisdom has a discussion with Kitty and a mystery villain tries to steal Nocturnes mind. Green grass and trees in England. Full moon. 

Tuesday 
HOUSE OF M #8 (20-26) 
Probably the day after HOM:DA 1 (3-31). The X-Men go to Genosha (where it is morning) and question a powerless Magneto about the location of his children; he doesnt know. Xavier cannot be found. Wanda lives happily in Europe. Hank Pym reports to the press from London on the possible implications of this whole event. 
[BTS] 
One day during the days between HOM 8 and TB2 12. Through the citys pheromone-tainted water supply, Killgrave has regained control over New York following the House of M interruption. Only the Thunderbolts remain beyond his control, which is subtle enough for people to believe their lives are normal. Songbird contacts Warbird, who is outside Manhattan, and she gathers non-New York super-humans for an assault, but they are repelled. Fearing civilian casualties, the DHS decides not to launch more attacks and leaves it up to the T-Bolts to stop Killgrave from inside Manhattan. 

Wednesday 
NEW X-MEN #20 (18-21) 
One day, 2 days after NX 20 (16-17). This segment occurs after X-23 6. Emma dismisses the now-powerless Dani and reaffirms to Scott that the ex-mutants must leave the school. Josh tries to fix Lauries withered arm but cant. Logan calls X-23, who is in San Francisco lamenting the loss of a friend. He asks her to return to the Institute but she throws the phone into the bay. 
HOUSE OF M: THE DAY AFTER #1 (32-40) 
Probably the same day as NX 20 (18-21), since the news of Danis firing is spreading. 27-30 mutant students remain at Xaviers. As parents retrieve their de-powered children from the Xavier Institute, out on the grounds Logan and Colossus save Mammomax, Peepers, and Erg from an attack by the Sapien League. Then Sentinels from O*N*E arrive. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
X-MEN v2 #177 
The same day as HOM:DA 1 (32-40). The Sentinels tell the X-Men to stand down, but the mutants attack. As the Leper Queen and her Sapien League look on from the woods, the X-Men fight the Sentinels. During the battle, Polaris hides the fact that shes lost her powers, and when a Sentinel tosses her to the sidelines, she encounters Val Cooper and soldiers from O*N*E. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
X-MEN v2 #178 
The same day as X 177. This story occurs before XG 1.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 03:17 pm  
By Jason Doty

This is what sucks about this whole false flashback theory. Because certain stories don't fit within your alloted timeframe, whole series and issues are being tossed out of continuity when they are not presented as flashbacks. Taking non flashbacks and making them false memories because they do not fit your idea of how the world has changed is just wrong.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 03:40 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I have not included the following issues, as the general consensus seems to be that they depict nothing but "false flashbacks" that pre-date that first flash of white in the House of M reality: 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #7 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HOUSE OF M #1-3 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #83-86 
Are we agreed about excluding these from character chronologies? 
<<<

Er, no. There's no real reason to do so, especially when we stretch things enourmously to make SM:HOM fit. I mean, Wolverine only waking up after 4 days ? 
BP4 7 and FF:HOM do not have any problem fitting into the timeframe. They happen over a few days where the characters are available. The only problem is Nightcrawler's appearance in BP4 7, which is merely illogical and not irreconciliable with other events. 
(BP4 7-FB, the interview of Storm by Dazzler, is a false memory, however). 
H3 83-86 have to be real, because characters refer to it in H3 87 just after HoM. Okay, there's a one-line reference to "a few weeks" between H3 83 and 85, but it can reasonnably be compressed. 

Actually, you seem to have followed mostly the last chronology, which is not the most accurate one. There are lost of minor mistakes, like IM:HOM taking two days instead of three. 
Actually, there is a lot of unnecessary compression in there even though the integration of SM:HOM made most of them useless by lengthening the timespan between HOM 1 and 5.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 04:12 pm    
By Somebody

In addition, there's an... well, an oddity about Cable/Deadpool. 

Deadpool, Cannonballs and Siryn depart normal-616 in the middle of C/D #15. They then spend considerably less than a single day on whatever interpretation you care to use going through three realities (the first is somewhere south of an hour, the second is three minutes and a few seconds, the third is around ten minutes. Whatever way you work it, you're not going to get three hours never mind a week out of their trip. 

They then land on HoM-616 on the last day of the HoM, a matter of hours before the fade-to-white. And, of course, Deadpool's attempts to bodyslide back out don't work until the warp has already started and the implication is that it only works once Providence and the teleportation matrix therein is back... 

I'm wondering if there's a case for the HoM warp lasting a shorter absolute time than those who experienced it would think - i.e., there's a time-dilation element to the warp. 

Oh, and if you're going to try and write Hulk off as a false memory, you must also write off SM:HoM as a false memory, since within Hulk you have a guy who remembers the real world during HoM and the HoM world when the real world's back, which is more evidence than SM:HoM has... (personally, I'd put SM:HoM as completely non-canon. It isn't consistant with the core HoM stuff with SM, and everything else is going with coreHoM as SM remembers).

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 04:32 pm    
By Col_Fury

Alternatively, I'll suggest some placements: 

For the details of how BP4 7 & FF: HoM relate to each other, see my Nov 5, 2:02AM post. After reviewing that, here are some 'day' suggestions that would work for Magneto: 

Magneto/Magnus/"Eric Lensherr" 
... 
FF: HoM 1 - M & D talk about Mole Man -HoM Tuesday 
BP4 7 pg4-pg6 - M & Q talk about Storm -HoM Tuesday 
BP4 7 pg12 - M & Q find Sabretooth's head -HoM Wednesday 
FF:HoM 2 pg6-pg7 - M & D talk about a dimensional prison -HoM Wednesday 
BP4 7 pg14 - M sicks Apocalypse on BP -HoM Wednesday 
FF: HoM 2 pg18-pg22 - the trap! -HoM Thursday 
FF: HoM 3 - M defeats D -HoM Thursday 
BP4 7 pg22pn4 - M discovers that Apocalypse failed -HoM Thursday 
HoM 5 - M looks at X's grave, morning of the gala event-HoM Saturday 
... 

There's some leeway, but this seems to work. As long as it happens before the gala event, we're good. And then of course, Doom's & Black Panther's appearances would correlate with Magneto's. 

Hulk 83-86 could start on the 1st Monday and end on the 2nd Sunday, effectively spanning the entirety of HoM. Give me a bit & I'll see if I can come up with some 'day' placement suggestions. 

I still say New T-Bolts 11 should pick up right where 10 left off. pg1-pg10pn2 would be late Sunday night after the reality flash, and pg10pn3-pg22 would be early Monday morning. Pg10pn2 ends the 'developing a virus' segment, & pg10pn3 starts the 'Genis freaking out' segment. 

Besides that, it looks good to me, Paul. Also, I'm assuming that XG is actually X: DG, or X-Men: Deadly Genesis. Right? 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 04:37 pm    
By Col_Fury

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
In addition, there's an... well, an oddity about Cable/Deadpool. 
<<<

I think the going theory is that there's 36 hours between jumps. I don't remember it being mentioned in-story, but that's what someone came up with to make eveything work. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
I'm wondering if there's a case for the HoM warp lasting a shorter absolute time than those who experienced it would think - i.e., there's a time-dilation element to the warp. 
<<<

I had suggested this earlier, but I suggested that no time had passed. I don't think it went over too well. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 04:44 pm  
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
For the details of how BP4 7 & FF: HoM relate to each other, see my Nov 5, 2:02AM post. After reviewing that, here are some 'day' suggestions that would work for Magneto: 
<<<

I concur on this. (Actually, I suggested something highly similar a few weeks ago...) 

I agree with Somebody on the non-canonicity of SM:HOM. There's no way to make it fit without destroying a key plot point of HOM (ie, Wolverine sees through the false memories immediatly). 

For Hulk, there is first a two-day sequence of Hulk taking over Australia (which should be put as early as possible), then a three-day sequence about the AIM cyborgs, which should be put as late as possible (there is a Magneto appearance at the end, though). 

Also, remember to consider timezones when putting together a general timeline...

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 05:00 pm    
By Col_Fury

JD wrote: 
>>>
Actually, I suggested something highly similar a few weeks ago... 
<<<

I remember that... 


Quote:
>>>
For Hulk, there is first a two-day sequence of Hulk taking over Australia (which should be put as early as possible), then a three-day sequence about the AIM cyborgs, which should be put as late as possible (there is a Magneto appearance at the end, though). 
<<<

Ah, forgot about Magneto. Thanks for the tip. 


Quote: 
>>>
There's no way to make it fit without destroying a key plot point of HOM (ie, Wolverine sees through the false memories immediatly).  
<<<

To be more precise, "Wolverine sees through the false memories immediately... after he wakes up." Paul B. just has Wolverine sleeping a little longer than a normal person does. But he woke up in bed with Mystique, and I'm sure that she would tire anyone out. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 05:03 pm    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
In addition, there's an... well, an oddity about Cable/Deadpool. 
<<<

I think the going theory is that there's 36 hours between jumps. I don't remember it being mentioned in-story, but that's what someone came up with to make eveything work. 
<<<

Interspacial and intraspacial harness. Not intertemporal harness  

Besides, why would Cannonballs and Siryn land three minutes after DP if they were moving through time? Even if they depart later they'd land simultaneously (and it's been a plot point before that Cable's bodyslides were in-space not in-time). Plus, more to the point, why does the bodysliding fail only when he reaches the HoM world until reality's started warping again, when it worked perfectly earlier? 

I'd be far happier saying there was something screwy with HoM-time because the world's based on Wanda and Wanda's cuckoo-for-coco-pops than shattering C/D into little pieces. 


Col Fury wrote: 
>>>
JD wrote: 
>>>
There's no way to make it fit without destroying a key plot point of HOM (ie, Wolverine sees through the false memories immediatly).  
<<<

To be more precise, "Wolverine sees through the false memories immediately... after he wakes up." Paul B. just has Wolverine sleeping a little longer than a normal person does. But he woke up in bed with Mystique, and I'm sure that she would tire anyone out.  
<<<

Mr Healing Factor slept for four days solid? He didn't even do that when his metal got ripped out.

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 05:41 pm    
By Col_Fury

I don't think that they're jumping through time. It's more like they jump into a reality, they're there for 36 hours, then jump into another one at it's relative same time. Then they're in that one for 36 hours, etc. The time sitting around wasn't important to the story, so it wasn't shown. Canonball & Siryn were set to follow Deadpool three minutes after each of his jumps, theoretically 36 hours to give them enough time to find Cable. 


Quote: 
>>>
Cannonballs and Siryn 
<<<

Oh man, that made me laugh. I'm going to have to call him that from now on.  


Quote: 
>>>
Mr Healing Factor slept for four days solid? He didn't even do that when his metal got ripped out. 
<<<

That would just be a testament to Mystique's... abilities. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 06:00 pm    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I don't think that they're jumping through time. It's more like they jump into a reality, they're there for 36 hours, then jump into another one at it's relative same time. Then they're in that one for 36 hours, etc. The time sitting around wasn't important to the story, so it wasn't shown. Canonball & Siryn were set to follow Deadpool three minutes after each of his jumps, theoretically 36 hours to give them enough time to find Cable. 
<<<

Nope - everything's continuous. The first reality (*an* AoA), they best three Horsemen (Archangel, Spider-Man and Blob) and just as they're catching their breath, Horseman No. 4 (Cable) arrives and nearly wipes them out, and Siryn orders DP to 'port out since they'll barely last three mins. Next one, Cable's a benevolent dictator in a world where robots rush round to salve your mild indigestion and DP, bored out his mind, teleports out literally the second CB&S arrive. Then DP nearly gets absorbed by a Phalanx-Cable and CB&S arrive a minute or two before DP rejects the virus. Then he teleports out before they come back. 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Cannonballs and Siryn 
<<<

Oh man, that made me laugh. I'm going to have to call him that from now on.  
<<<

Where did you think I got it from? [Buy C/D! ] I keep adding the "s" on without thinking. 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Mr Healing Factor slept for four days solid? He didn't even do that when his metal got ripped out. 
<<<

That would just be a testament to Mystique's... abilities.  
<<<

Not even a hedonistic shapeshifter 

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 06:56 pm    
By Col_Fury

I went back and flipped through those C/D issues and there it is: Deadpool calls him Cannonballs. How could I have forgotten? 

And you're right, those jumps are pretty continuous. I guess we'll just have to assume that they jumped into several realities that we didn't see before landing in the HoM. Why didn't we see them, or why didn't the characters reference them? They weren't important, of course!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 09:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I don't think that they're jumping through time.  
<<<

I have to confess...that's a theory I threw into the mix to explain a HUGE gap in time. See, we have X 165 occurring during last year's Christmas season, and the narration refers to CannonBALL (half the man he used to be in this thread) as playing hooky from X-Force. That places X 165 after XFOR2 6. 

C&DP 15 (6-11p3) occurs "four days" after XFOR2 and would need to occur after X 165. So C&DP 15 (6-11p3) must be very shortly after X 165. Thus it's still December. 

C&DP 15 (11p4-22) occur "four days" after that. It is in this segment that Sam and Teresa start their jaunts after Wade, and we're still not quite out of December yet. 

They're still jaunting after Wade during HOM, which, through a whole bunch of other chronologies and temporal pointers, I've placed nine months later, in late September. 

So I figured a logical explanation was to have the jaunts involve time-jumping as well as dimension-hopping. Fortunately, none of the principal characters in C&DP make appearances in other books during that long stretch of time. 


Anyway, if there is some agreement out there about the shortcomings of the chronology I posted, would someone post a complete alternative chronology? Thanks for the feedback!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 12:10 am    
By Jason Doty

Just to make myself a bit clearer. In my prior post I was not attempting to derail or insult anyones hard work, but to accomidate certain parts of this series many of the suggestions are quick to throw out series and issues that are clearly meant to be part of continuity and the larger story. Why throw out any part of the stories when we clearly don't know how the Scarlet Witch altered the 616? 

The current trend in the handbooks seem to reconcile any discrepancy by finding ways to include them all, not exclude them. If this is Marvel's current policy, why not try to use the same strategy untill they give a difinative answer.

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 02:26 am    
By Jason Doty

It doesn't matter to me if Deadpool is jumping through time, or if he's visiting several realities we don't see. Clearly there's a huge discrepancy in time for this span of C/DP issues. Either way works for me, but if I had to choose, jumping through time is a more plausible answer because of the 'time issues' listed by Paul B. There has to be some explanation, and I like Paul's better than mine. I mean, reality hopping for nine months? 

Secrets of the HoM was a profile/handbook type one-shot that also had interviews with some characters. Easily false-FlashBack territory. 

Pulse: HoM Special was a newspaper/tabloid one-shot that was printed on newsprint paper. It was like the Pulse newspaper that Wolverine was reading in HoM 2, except it was 'real.' It had an extra article or two than was shown in HoM 2, and it also had a checklist for all the HoM related tie-ins so we knew what to buy. It cost fifty cents. Again, easily false-FlashBack territory. 

As for Wolverine's sleeping habits, why don't we keep HoM 3 pg16-pg22 where it is(Saturday) and move HoM 2 & most of 3 and W3 33-35 up to Monday or Tuesday? If we go with the 'two days' reference in HoM 3, that would put HoM 2 on Wednesday or Thursday, depending on how you look at it. We're already ignoring that reference, so why not make it longer instead of shorter? Wolverine could have been sorting out his thoughts or hiding from SHIELD during this time. He's not interacting with anyone during this span, so it doesn't really upset anything. 

As for the Hulk issues, check out JD's analysis for the details, and here're some 'day' placement suggestions: 

Hulk 83 pg1-pg20 -HoM Sunday night, after the reality flash 
Hulk 83 pg21-pg22 -HoM early Monday morning 
Hulk 84 -HoM Monday 
Hulk 85 pg1 -HoM Tuesday evening 
Hulk 85 pg2-pg5 -HoM Tuesday night 
Hulk 85 pg6-pg8 -HoM Wednesday morning 
Hulk 85 pg9-pg12 -HoM Wednesday afternoon 
Hulk 85 pg13-pg22 -HoM late Wednesday night 
Hulk 86 pg1-pg11 -HoM early Thursday morning, after midnight 
Hulk 86 pg12-pg19 -HoM Thursday morning, after dawn 
Hulk 86 pg20-pg22 -HoM Thursday afternoon 

I can't seem to sleep at the moment, but I'm going to try again. If I fail, I may do a 'Calendar Style' suggestion incorporating New Thunderbolts 11, BP4 7, FF: HoM 1-3, Hulk 83-86, and the suggested revisions to HoM 2, most of 3, & W3 33-35. Honestly though, I need the sleep.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 04:36 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I don't think that they're jumping through time.  
<<<

I have to confess...that's a theory I threw into the mix to explain a HUGE gap in time. See, we have X 165 occurring during last year's Christmas season, and the narration refers to CannonBALL (half the man he used to be in this thread) as playing hooky from X-Force. That places X 165 after XFOR2 6. 
<<<

Still can't work, unless you put XM165 post-HoM (which is obviously impossible). Two things: Firstly, we're informed that, on the very page you mention: "[Cable]...disappeared...fighting alongside X-Force against the Skornn four days ago. Sam Guthrie and Theresa Cassidy have been here ever since, trying to use Nate's teleportation matrix to lock on to his DNA signature" 

And Deadpool's exaggerating when he says he's been strung up for four days - we're told by Siryn, who's slightly more reliable, that he was only brainwashed and turned up on Providence "a day ago" in C/D #18. 

And we also have a reference in C/D #18 that they visited only three alternate realities. 

And finally, there IS no X-Force between X-Force #6 and C/D #18, where they reband for One Day Only to knock out one of the Black Box's facilities. 

Basically, there's only been three significant gaps in the whole C/D timeline - one between pages of C/D #6 which is "weeks" long, a "month" between C/D #12 and #13, and a possible gap between C/D #19 and #20, since we're told by Irene Merryweather it's been "a few months" since C/D #10 and things actually stop between issues for once. Inserting a huge gap Cable's absent for though dilutes the point made here whereby Cable's meant to have not lay low for any significant time. 

I think this is another case where the Calendar Method breaks down... 


Quote: 
>>>
Anyway, if there is some agreement out there about the shortcomings of the chronology I posted, would someone post a complete alternative chronology? 
<<<

I'm not that masochistic 

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 04:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I can't see how we can possibly exclude stuff like BLACK PANTHER and HULK, which are plainly presented in the present day as "altered world" material. In HULK, the fact that the world has been altered is an active plot point. 

If these stories can't be made to fit on a calendar, then it's the calendar that has to give. I have no problem with the idea that there's a bit of artistic licence going on in the House of M chronology. 

Excluding the bulk of the WOLVERINE storyline is fine, because that's explicitly presented as a flashback, no doubt for exactly that reason. Eliminating stories which are not flashbacks strikes me as a total non-starter.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 07:18 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I can't see how we can possibly exclude stuff like BLACK PANTHER and HULK, which are plainly presented in the present day as "altered world" material. In HULK, the fact that the world has been altered is an active plot point. 

If these stories can't be made to fit on a calendar, then it's the calendar that has to give. 
<<<

For the record, if anyone is suggesting eliminating certain HOM titles as non-canonical for the sake of the calendar, it's not I. I don't have those titles and I'm going by what folks have said in this thread about what is or is not pre- "white event" material. 

I mistook a lack of activity on this thread as general consensus, but clearly there's still some debate to be had. Carry on!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Nov 2005 10:01 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

The Hulk HoM issues can be made to fit no problem, you simply have to ignore that one single reference to it having been "weeks" that have passed in the course of the story. If everything else lines up, I have no problem ignoring that one reference.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 03:45 am    
By Col_Fury

As promised: 

Sunday 
HOUSE OF M #1 (7-17) 
One day. This section occurs after NX:AXY 1/2 and several weeks after NX:AXY 1 (19). The Astonishing X-Men team meets the Avengers at the new Avengers Mansion, which Carol Danvers (now reclaiming her Ms. Marvel moniker)has not seen before now, and which is still being kept a secret from the general public. The Avengers gathered include new and old members, including She-Hulk. Sentry is here, which places this segment after A4 10. Charles Xavier, who has physically come to New York from Genosha, has called the teams and Dr. Strange together to discuss the threat and fate of the Scarlet Witch. The heroes decide to go see Wanda. In Genosha, Quicksilver appeals to Magneto to stop the Avengers and X-Men from killing Wanda, but he refuses. We see people wearing jackets in New York. 
HOUSE OF M #7  FB 
The same day as HOM 1 (7-17). In Genosha, Quicksilver, agonizing over the fate of his sister, tries to talk her into creating a world in which everyone will be happy. Full moon. 
HOUSE OF M #1 (18-23) 
The same day as HOM 1 (7-17). The Astonishing X-Men, the Avengers, Dr. Strange, and Xavier arrive in Genosha. As they approach Wanda, she alters reality. 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #9 (20p5-22) 
It must be the same day as HOM 1 (18-24). Killgrave visits Melissa at her ESU dorm and commands her to stop inquiring about Atlas and Genis and attempts to rape her but is skewered by the new Swordsman, or so it seems. ESU is in session. Green shrubs in New York. 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #10 
The same day as TB 9. It is ten days before TB2 12. With the skewering scene being nothing but a deception, Killgrave possesses Code Blue and citizens of New York to attack Melissa and the Swordsman and thirteen ESU students die in the melee. Killgrave makes it appear that Songbird killed the students. Controlled by Killgrave, the Thunderbolts arrive and battle Melissa and Swordsman. Swordsman slices Atlas, who explodes from the release of ionic energy. Much destruction ensues, then Swordsman skewers both Mach-IV and Genis. Wandas reality warping kicks in and transforms the city. 
MUTOPIA X #1 (1-3) 
The same day as HOM 1 (8-24). Wandas reality warping kicks in. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #462 (1-4) 
The same day as HOM 1 (18-24). As the XSE team battles the Weaponeers, who are again trying to take over Zanzibar, Wandas reality warping causes everything to fade away, leaving Psylocke and Rachel in a white hot room outside of reality. 
INCREDIBLE HULK #83 (1-20) 
Bruce is with a group of Aborigines in the Australian Outback when AIM refugees, including Machine Teen, Scorpion III and her mother, Dr. Rappaccini & Dr. Isaacs, flee in their direction. Theyre attacked by representatives of the Australian Government, including Unus the Untouchable, Pyro, and Exodus. The Hulk drives them off. 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #11 (1-10p2) 
Genis, Ms. Marvel, and the Howling Commandos, led by Major Erik Josten, fight Baron Strucker, the Radioactive Man, Flashback, and Andrea & Andreas Strucker. Genis has an encounter with Flashback, which unlocks Genis Cosmic awareness. The Struckers are all killed, Flashback disappears, and the Radioactive Man is apprehended. 
Fifteen minutes later, Killgrave and Ronan watch Forge, Quasar, the Mole Man, and the Mad Thinker(and possibly Puppet Master? And whos the guy with the beard?) track the photonic surges noticed during the recent fight. Josten and Gen. Dugan meet with Speed Demon to discuss the progress on a virus that will kill all Kree on the planet. 

Monday 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #11 (10p2-22) 
Not long after 10p2, possibly after midnight. Unable to handle his new Cosmic Awareness, Genis freaks out and flies away. Forge notices the new photonic surges, Ronan orders a chase. Genis crashes into a graveyard, on Rick Jones grave. 
Ronan, Forge, Gen. Dugan, Killgrave, and Major Josten discuss the seriousness of the situation. Josten, Dugan, and Killgrave get the anti-Kree virus from Speed Demon, then drive off to get a hidden sentinel. 
As Genis continues to freak out, Josten attacks, piloting the sentinel. To avoid further catastrophe, Genis puts himself into a coma. 
Hours later, Ronans aid says he can minimize Genis photonic fluctuations. Dugan says that Josten has been missing for hours. A rising sun is seen. 
INCREDIBLE HULK #83 (21-22) 
The Aborigine chief approves of Bruce helping the AIM refugees. 
HOUSE OF M #1 (24) 
The early morning after HOM 1 (18-23). In the alternate reality of the House of M, Peter Parker wakes from a bed he shares with Gwen Stacy to deal with a crying baby. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #1 
The same day after HOM 1 (24). Peter Parker wakes up, works out, and shaves his head. Captain Stacy does a presentation for law enforcement. Gwen oversees takeover of Osborn Industries. That night, Peters family throws him a surprise birthday party and Green Goblin visits J. Jonah Jameson. 
HOUSE OF M #2 
The morning after HOM 1. Logan awakens in the House of M reality created by Wanda. He remembers the original mainstream MU, but others around him are living lives with pasts in the new reality. We see scenes featuring the new realitys Cap, Cyclops, Emma, Dazzler, Wonder Man, Warbird, Gambit, Kitty, Cage, Sentry, Dr. Strange, Colossus, Beast, Hank Pym, Wasp, Storm, and Mystique. 
HOUSE OF M #3 (1-11) 
The same morning as HOM 2. Logan tries to figure out whats going on as hes confronted with a brand new reality. 
WOLVERINE v3 #33 
The same morning as HOM 3 (1-11). Aboard the Helicarrier above New York, Shaw looks at footage of the scene depicted in HOM 3 (3-6). Four hours later, Shaw interrogates Mystique about an operation she had in Mexico with Logan two weeks ago in the altered reality. 
WOLVERINE v3 #34 
The same afternoon as W3 33. Mystique and Shaw discuss more past events of the altered reality in Shaws office aboard the Helicarrier above New York. 
WOLVERINE v3 #35 (1-3) 
The same afternoon as W3 34. Shaw orders Mystique to be incarcerated. 
INCREDIBLE HULK #84 (1-3) 
BTS-Exodus has an off-panel (presumably long-distance) meeting with Magneto. It is also mentioned that Unus is now hospitalized. 
INCREDIBLE HULK #84 (7-10)-FB 
Hulk and Rappaccini dine together. They're interrupted by Scorpion, who reports that they've been pinged by sonar(alluded to in p3). Bruce hulks up to get a whale to hide them. 
INCREDIBLE HULK #84 (4-6) 
The AIM refugees are in a submarine, Hulk helps hide it under a whale. Inside, Rappaccini and Isaacs argue about their respective progenitor. Rappaccini then remembers her dinner with Bruce. 
INCREDIBLE HULK #84 (11-22) 
Sydney, night. Exodus interrogates Adam. He's interrupted by a missile launched from the sub; it explodes in the air and sheds tracts requesting a summit to settle things. 
Our heroes learn that the Australian government is accepting the meeting, but they smell a trap. Bruce decides to go anyway. 
Exodus telepathically attacks Bruce. Adam reassembles himself, breaks out of the workshop where he was being examined, and joins the fight. Exodus being distracted, Bruce transforms into the Hulk and pounds down on him, throwing him down to the ground from the balcony. He is acclaimed by Sydney's inhabitants. 
HOUSE OF M #3 (12-15) 
The same night as HOM 3 (1-11). Logan goes to Westchester and discovers that the Institute is a private home occupied by strangers. Theres no trace of a Charles Xavier. 
WOLVERINE v3 #35 (4-25) 
The same night as W3 35 (1-3). Aboard the Helicarrier, Shaw gathers more data about the death of Nick Fury. Mystique confesses she set up the whole Mexico thing. Shaw releases her and sends her to get Logan back. 

Tuesday 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #2 
The morning after SM:HOM 1. Jameson reveals Peters secret and destroys him. 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HoM #1 
The Frightful Four fight and kill the Mole Man. They return to their home in Latveria to rest, Doom puts the It back into his cage, reviews the work of his underlings, has a chat with his mother and is summoned to Genosha by Quicksilver. Once in Genosha, Magneto and Doom discuss the Mole Man's demise. Doom takes his frustrations on the It. 
BLACK PANTHER #7 (1-11) 
Tsavo West, Kenya; Quicksilver is delivering ice cream from Tuscany, Italy to Storm unexpectedly. Hes trying to win her affections, Storm reminds him that shes with TChalla. He reminds her of TChallas harem, then leaves. 
Magnetos Palace, Genosha; Quicksilver & Magneto discuss Quicksilvers inability to woo Storm. Magneto asks if Quicksilver has seen Storms appearance on TV yesterday. Magneto & Quicksilver watch yesterdays episode of Alison that Storm was on, which shows Storm questioning mutant superiority. Magneto & Quicksilver argue over the topics raised, & mention that Africas superior technology may threaten mutant rule 'in a decade.' Magneto says Since you failed at undoing their romance - - Ill do it my way. 
Wakanda; TChalla & Storm discuss their relationship through a holo-phone call. Monica Lynn & Shanna the She-Devil are mentioned as being in TChallas harem. After Storm hangs up, Sabretooth teleports in & Black Panther shoots him. Sabretooth has been hired to kill Black Panther as a message to Storm. They fight, & Black Panther decapitates Sabretooth. 
MUTOPIA X #1 (4-8) 
One night. Human terrorist attacks concert in Sapien Town. 
INCREDIBLE HULK #85 (1-5) 
Sydney, evening. A guy named Jon is captured by some AIM grunts. His girlfriend escapes. 
Later that night. After a trying day as President of Australia, Bruce is in bed with Rappaccini and tells her he's been thinking about hulking up to vent his frustrations. Not thinking clearly, Bruce mentions he's been with AIM for "a few weeks", which can't be right. 

Wednesday 
INCREDIBLE HULK #85 (6-12) 
Sydney, dawn. Jon's girlfriend is attacked by some AIM grunts again (maybe the same ones) but is rescued by Scorpion. She tells her about disappearances among volunteering test subjects. 
Later, Bruce deals with various administrative matters, then storms off when they ask him to prop out the Hulk once in a while. Scorpion tells him they have a problem. 
BLACK PANTHER #7 (12) 
Magnetos Palace, Genosha; Quicksilver opens a box to find Sabretooths head inside. Quicksilver mentions that the box arrived today, & that the Black Panther must have used the transporter we gave Sabretooth. Magneto is pissed. 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HoM #2 (6-18p1) 
Magneto asks to Doom to find a prison-dimension for holding his enemies. The Frightful Four proceed to find an anti-electromagnetic dimension and slaughter everybody there. Doom has formulated a plan to dethrone Magneto, but now hesitates. His mother encourages him to take action. 
MUTOPIA X #1 (12-20) 
The day after MUTX 1 (5-8). Bishop and Ortega are assigned to protect Kaufman. That night, terrorists attack Kaufmans movie premiere. 
BLACK PANTHER #7 (13) 
Wakanda; Black Panther is talking to Sunfire, Namor, Victor Von Doom, & Storm on a holo-phone conference call, called the Council of Kings. They discuss whether to stand together now that Magneto has tried to kill TChalla, because theyre assuming that Magneto may now try to kill the rest of them. Doom declines & hangs up. 
INCREDIBLE HULK #85 (13-22) 
Sydney, late night. Bruce and Scorpion break into the testing facility, discovering a secret passage to a big underground laboratory where Dr Isaacs turns humans into cyborgs. Hulk smashes until Isaacs confesses that he and Rappaccini thought better than to tell Bruce about this. Rappaccini sees the scene from a monitor. 

Thursday 
INCREDIBLE HULK #86 (1-19) 
Sydney, after midnight. Rappaccini tricks Scorpion into activating a sleeping post-hypnotic command she implanted one of the previous nights into Bruce, and hacks into the cyborgs in order to kill him. Hulk was actually playing possum, and smashes through the cyborgs. A giant cyborg is activated. 
Now outside, dawn. The fight continues as Hulk pounds the giant cyborg through the ground and into the street. Scorpion helps Jon out of the rubble. Rappaccini "suicides" Lazlo so that he can take the blame. Hulk destroys the cyborg and the Opera House. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1 (1-12) 
One day. Tony Stark loses to his father in the Sapien Death Match. Tony learns that Pym is studying the mutant gene and orders him to stop his research. 
MUTOPIA X #1 (21-22) 
The day after MUTX 1 (12-20). The Ortegas watch news coverage of terrorist attack. 
BLACK PANTHER #7 (14) 
Cairo, Egypt; A smack-talkin Apocalypse is watching a pyramid being built, Magneto sends him after Black Panther. 
MUTOPIA X #2 (1-10) 
The same day as MUTX 1 (21-22). Ortega and wife argue about the Rite of Transcendence. 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HoM #2 (18p2-22) 
Doom and the FF invite the House of M to go into the portal to the aforementioned dimension (minus Polaris, who wanders off just before). 
FANTASTIC FOUR: HoM #3 
In the other dimension, the FF beat Magneto and Quicksilver up, then leave them stranded there. The FF come back to Genosha and kill the Genoshan scientists, then take over. The It starts rebelling about this, but is dismissed. 
Off-panel, the It finds Polaris and together they free Magneto and Quicksilver. Theres a big fight between the House of M, their servants and the Frightful Three. The Invincible Woman and the Inhuman Torch die. Doom's mother, brought to Genosha, denies her son in true hypocritical form. Magneto refuses to kill the broken Doom and sends him back to Latveria. 
Later, Doom sulks alone in his castle. The It joins the Human Resistance at the invitation of the redhead. 
BLACK PANTHER #7 (15-22p3) 
Apocalypse, in his airplane, is flying to Wakanda when his pilots inform him that Storm is attacking. The plane crashes into water. Namor rips the plane open & throws Apocalypse out. He grows gills & hits Namor, sending him out of the water, where Iceman freezes him. Iceman is then attacked by Storm, & then Sunfire. Storm refers to Iceman as one of Apocalypses horsemen. Off to the side, Angel & Nightcrawler argue about getting involved in the fight.(theyre on Apocalypses/Magnetos side) Apocalypse enters the Panthers Castle, & off to the side we see Monica Lynn & Shanna the She-Devil get into a fight over whos TChallas current girlfriend. Chasing Black Panther, Apocalypse runs into Black Bolt who blows him away with a syllable. Black Panther was hiding in a Vibranium box. Storm, Sunfire, & Namor arrive. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #3 
The day after SM:HOM 2. Peter Parker visits a hospital patient, then battles the Rhino. That evening, Peter returns home to apologize to his family and the Green Goblin is captured and revealed to be Peter Parker. 
INCREDIBLE HULK #86 (20-22) 
Sydney, late afternoon. Bruce orders everybody in his office(Scorpion III, Dr. Rappaccini, Dr Isaacs, & Machine Teen) to get out of Australia except Rappaccini (he knows what she's up to). Through a holographic phone call, Magneto offers Bruce to give back Australia to Exodus & Co, to which he refuses. 
BLACK PANTHER #7 (22p4) 
Genosha, late afternoon; Magneto & Quicksilver discover how the assassination attempt on TChalla turned out. Theyre not happy to hear the news. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #4 (1-9) 
The same night as SM:HOM 3. Peter escapes from his captors and battles a Sentinel. 

Friday 
MUTOPIA X #2 (11-16) 
The day after MUTX 2 (1-10). Ortega and Lara get together. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #4 (10-22) 
The day after SM:HOM 4 (1-9). Gwen convinces her father and Ben to take back Peters journal. That night, Gwen, her father, and Ben steal Petes journal from Jameson. 
MUTOPIA X #2 (17-22) 
The same night as MUTX 2 (11-16). Bishop and Ortega investigate a terrorists safe house. 
MUTOPIA X #3 (1-4) 
The same night as MUTX 2 (17-22). Bishop and Ortega continue to investigate a terrorists safe house. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1 (13-22) 
The night after IM:HOM 1 (1-12). Tony learns Pym is missing and searches for him. Tony storms a Sapien Resistance meeting but everybody is then attacked by sentinels. Howard hacks into a Sentinels systems and starts talking to Tony. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #2 (1-5) 
The same night as IM:HOM 1 (13-22). Tony escapes the Sentinel with his fathers help. 

Saturday 
MUTOPIA X #3 (5-22) 
The morning after MUTX 3 (1-4). Ortega arrives home and fights with wife about Lara. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #2 (6-10) 
The morning after IM:HOM 2 (1-5). Tony welcomes an envoy from the House of M. The envoy bullies him into giving the Vision project to the House of M, and Howard reams Tony for doing so. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #5 (1-6) 
The day after SM:HOM 4 (10-22). Gwen, Captain Stacy, Ben, and May read and discuss the contents of Peters journal. 
[BTS] 
The same day as SM:HOM 5 (1-6). Peter contacts his family. They decide to get together to talk about everything that has happened. They spend some time outdoors. Peter only recently shaved his head and hopes that most of the general public does not recognize him with his new look. (Every time that he was attacked by a crowd previously, he was wearing his Spider-Man costume.) 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16 (1-10) 
One day. In the House of M reality, the Hellions are SHIELD agents who save the day when human terrorists attack the New Mutant Leadership Institute. 
HOUSE OF M #3 (16-22) 
It is supposed to be two days after HOM 3 (12-15). Logan tries to look up Tony Stark at Stark Tower, but Logans SHIELD unit (consisting of an altered Mystique, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Spider-Woman, and ??) confront him. He escapes but is swallowed up by Cloak and is transported to a place where he sees Cage, Hawkeye, and their allies, which include Black Cat, Iron Fist, and Moon Knight. 
HOUSE OF M #4 
The same day as HOM 3 (16-22). It is supposed to be two days after HOM 1 (7-17). Cage and Hawkeye question Logan, but Logans tracker attracts Sentinels and Cloak transports everyone present to the Kingpins office. Logan tells the group about his reality, including Hawkeyes death, and they believe him because a girl, Layla, is present who also remembers the mainstream MU. Cloak transports the group to the Summers residence in Connecticut, where they encounter Emma Frost. With Laylas help, Logan gets Emma to realize that theyre in an altered reality. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16 (11-20) 
One day. In the House of M reality, the Hellions are SHIELD agents who save the day when human terrorists attack the New Mutant Leadership Institute. When the Hellions are given the assignment of tracking down human terrorists to a hidden base in Tokyo, Noriko is cut from the squad because her father leads the resistance movement. Noriko gets David Alleyne and his friends to agree to help her sneak her father out before the raid, but allies Laurie and Sean Garrison turn out to be SHIELD moles. 
EXILES #69 (9-13) 
One day. The Exiles return to Earth-616, only to discover that its been turned into the House of M reality. 
HOUSE OF M #5 (1-14p6) 
The same day as HOM 4. Led by Emma and Cages resistance force, Layla restores the true memories of Scott Summers. Peter Parker and his family (Gwen, Richie, Ben, and May) are walking around New York City when one of his fans recognizes him. When the heroes (Danny Rand, Hawkeye, Felicia Hardy, Luke Cage, Emma Frost, Layla Miller, Wolverine, Scott Summers, Cloak, and Marc Spector) arrive on the scene, Layla uses her powers to make Peter remember his real life. Spider-Man joins the fight against Magneto. Layla also restores the memories of Kitty Pryde, Stephen Strange, Carol Danvers, Tony Stark, Matt Murdock, and Jennifer Walters. 
PULSE #10 (1-6) 
The same day as HOM 5 (1-14). SHIELDs Red Guard investigates Stark Tower. Hawkeye is nearby. 
HOUSE OF M #5 (14p7-21) 
The same day as PULSE 10 (1-6). The heroes spy on Steve Rogers but decide not to recruit him because of his age. The heroes (Wolverine, Emma Frost, Scott Summers, Luke Cage, Danny Rand, Cloak, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, Matt Murdock, Dr. Strange, Spider-Man, Kitty Pryde, Tony Stark, Carol Danvers, Felicia Hardy, and Layla Miller) gather, but the Red Guard (Jessica Drew, Mystique, Rogue, Nightcrawler, and Toad) find them and attack. The battle ends quickly when Laylas powers cause the members of the Red Guard to remember their real lives. Hawkeye disappears and the heroes decide to confront Magneto in Genosha. In Genosha, Magneto awaits Dooms arrival in a half hour and guests are expected soon. Magneto stands at Xaviers memorial. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #16 (21-23) 
The same day as NX 16 (11-20). The Hellions arrive in Japan. When Quentin Quire discovers the moles, Laurie forces him to kill himself. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #17 (1-11) 
The same day as NX 16 (21-23). The Hellions launch their attack on the Tokyo terrorists and Noriko intervenes when Kevin Ford and Josh Foley threaten human resister Cameron Hodge, but Hodge convinces Noriko to kill him to avoid torture. The Garrisons try to cover for Quires death and Tag gets upset. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #2 (11-22) 
The same day as IM:HOM 2 (6-10). Tony monitors the investigations of the envoy, then tries summoning the will to destroy his armor. He finds Johnny Storm in the armor and Johnny joins him. News footage shows that Pym has been caught. Tony and Johnny rescue Pym but are chased by easily dispatched Sentinels and mutant guards. Pym activates an anti-mutant bomb which liquefies the mutant guards. Pym reveals that hundreds of these bombs are deployed in Chicago. 
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #3 
The same day as IM:HOM 2 (11-22). Tony, Johnny, and other robot-fighters race against the clocks to neutralize the bombs. The House of M sends the Visions to help, but theyre taken over by Howard, who reveals this was all a plan to kill Magneto. Magneto shows up and kills Howard. Tony refuses to kill Magneto and then helps clear the damage. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #462 (5-23) 
One day. The effects of Wandas reality-warping reach Otherworld, where Roma concludes that its a trans-temporal tsunami that will end all rational existence. Roma sends Brian Braddock to Earth-616 and gives him forty-eight hours to try to stop the source of the threat. Betsy and Rachel see an image of Brian flying off with Jamie Braddock, who Rachel has been seeing for months. Jamie, who notes that he has bound the womens lives and fates together, removes them from the white hot room to save the day on a reality-altered earth. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #463 (1-5) 
The same day as UX 462. Betsy and Rachel land in the House of M reality and their memories of the real MU are quickly replaced by false alternate reality memories. There they see Brian, whose memories are also altered. 
[BTS] 
The same night as HOM 5 (14-21). Realizing that reality could be altered tomorrow, the heroes are allowed to leave to take care of unfinished business and say their goodbyes. When Pete learns that humans are being rounded up and relocated because of him, his guilt gets the best of him. He leaves, hoping to help some of the humans. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #5 (7-12) 
The same night as HOM 5 (14-21). When Spider-Man arrives at a homeless shelter and rescues a group of humans from mutant soldiers, the humans attack him. Peter calls his Uncle Ben, who meets him on a bridge. Observing the rioting below them, which is the fallout from Peters actions, they fake Spider-Mans death, hoping to stop the rioting and the violence. 
MUTOPIA X #4 (1-3) 
The same night as MUTX 3 (5-22). Kaufmans surgeons transform a terrorist into a perfect assassin. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #10 
The same night as SM:HOM 5 (7-12). An elderly House of M Steve Rogers attends a dinner held in his honor, then runs afoul of young mutants on the way home. As he nears home, he is watched by Logan, Cage, Emma, and Peter Parker, who has rejoined the heroes. Apparently, the heroes are having second thoughts about recruiting Steve. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #17 (12-20) 
The same night as NX 17 (1-11). Now convinced of the nefarious nature of SHIELDs top-secret Project Genesis, Noriko, David, and their friends find the place where Norikos father is. 
PULSE #10 
The same night as HOM 5 (14-21). Stunned at the revelation of reality, Hawkeye goes to the Daily Bugle and talks to Kat Farrell about it. He aims to kill Magneto and Wanda tomorrow. 

Sunday 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #5 (18) 
The early morning after SM:HOM 5 (7-12). A picture appears on the front page of the Daily Bugle, showing Spider-Man hanging from the bridge, the victim of an apparent suicide. 
[BTS] 
The same morning as SM:HOM 5 (18). Peter Parker has lost control of his life and needs to regain some control. As soon as the Bugle comes out, Cloak transports Peter to Genosha. Peter leaves a copy of the Bugle and his note where Magneto can find it. Even though the heroes are planning to attack Magneto, they allow Peter to do this because they all realize that Peter needs to do this. They also know that Peters actions will not affect their plans. Cloak returns Peter to New York. Knowing that he may never see Gwen, Richie, and Ben again, and knowing that he is supposed to be dead, Peter takes his family into the country in order to make the most of the last few hours that he has left with them. Since his family does not like his shaved head, he wears a wig and a baseball cap to make them happy. 
SPIDER-MAN: HOUSE OF M #5 (19-21) 
The same morning as SM:HOM 5 (18). Hulk Hogan, the Rhino, the Vulture, J. Jonah Jameson, and Norman Osborn react to the news of Spider-Mans death. In Genosha, Magneto finds a copy of the Bugle in a web with a note telling him to ease up on the humans if he wants Spider-Man to stay dead. Elsewhere, Peter and his family are vacationing by a lake. 
[BTS] 
The same morning as SM:HOM 5 (19-21). Gwen mentions that there are people who think that Spider-Man is still alive and who claim to have seen him. She could be repeating what she just heard on the radio. Spider-Mans death would be big news and would generate a lot of news coverage. When it is time for the heroes to leave for Genosha, Cloak arrives at the lake and teleports Peter back to the location where the heroes are gathered. 
EXILES #69 (19-22) 
The morning after EXILES 69 (9-13). Beak discovers that Angel is a super-model and when he finds her he learns that she doesnt know him at all and that their babies do not exist. After their encounter, Angels body is seized by Mutant X. A newspaper reports of a Von Doom/Magneto summit tomorrow. 
EXILES #70 
The same day as EXILES 69 (19-22). Mutant X, in Angels body, snatches Beak and the other Exiles meet Mutant Xs mother, House of Ms Moira MacTaggert. After subduing a couple of Sentinels, the team encounters Mutant X. Green trees in New York. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #16 (19p5-21) 
One day. For Wade, Sam, and Theresa, it appears to be the same day as C&DP 16 (15-19), but the trio may be leaping forward in time as they jump from reality to reality. Deadpool enters a reality in which a baby Nathan is in the care of Mr. Sinister. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #17 (21-22) 
The day after NX 17 (1-20); its night in Japan. The New Mutants find human terrorists in Japan. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #18 
The same day as NX 17. At the New Mutants Leadership Institute, Shan and Doug discover that Dr. Garrison is a SHIELD agent and that he caused Quires death. Garrison confronts them. In Tokyo, the New Mutants fight Pierce and the human resistance until Norikos father tells them about Project Genesis. The Hellions show up and fight the New Mutants. Surge forces Illyana to teleport everyone to the Project Genesis labs, where they see the horror of the project, designed to turn humans into mutants. When the New Mutants and the Hellions voice opposition to the project, Laurie tips her hand and uses her power to order the gang to kill one another. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #19 (1-16) 
The same day as NX 18. The New Mutants and Hellions mop the floor with one another and a few of them are killed before Cessily is forced to slay Laurie. Sophie clears away the pheromones and is killed by Pierce. Moonstar kills Pierce. 
HOUSE OF M #6 
The same day as HOM 5 (20-21); its a weekend evening in Genosha. Logans crew boards the helicarrier and head for Genosha, where leaders such as TChalla, Ororo, Namor, and Genis are gathering for a special ceremony for Magneto. As Dr. Strange prepares to meet Wanda on the astral plane and the rest of their compatriots attack the ceremony to keep Magneto occupied, Cloak, Emma, and Layla try to find Xavier. They encounter Xaviers grave only to discover that hes not in it. Both a full moon and a waning crescent moon are shown. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #463 (6-22) 
The day after UX 463 (1-5). Brian dreams of the real MU and tells Meggan, Betsy, and Rachel about it. With real memories flashing to him, Brian attacks Courtney, seeing her as Saturnyne. Brian and crew hear about Wolverine going rogue from SHIELD. They then go on a mission to investigate some mutant fugitives being pursued by the Marauders in the West Country. There they encounter Nocturne. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #464 
The same day as UX 463 (6-22). Meggan manifests the forms of those who sent Brian on his mission to stop the House of M reality from destroying the universe, but Brian still cant remember his mission. After Betsey and Rachel encounter a quantum tear in creation in which reality is unraveling, Brians memory is restored. The Marauders pursue Nocturne and Karima shows up to slay Brian and his family for treason. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #465 
The same day as UX 464. Captain UK and Justicer Bull show up to help Captain Britain and company battle the Marauders, Karima, and the Sentinels. When the Sentinels channel their power through Karima for one big blast, Rachel and Betsey repel the blast, deflecting it into the rift in reality. This action wipes out Karima and the Sentinels, but the rift still needs to be closed. Meggan sacrifices herself to close the breech. 
EXILES #71 (1-19) 
The same day as EXILES 70. The Exiles battle Mutant X. Moira shoots Mutant X, forcing him to leave Angels body. He enters Mimics body and, glimpsing alternate realities in Calvins memories, leaves Earth 616. Blink injects the dying Angel with a serum to regenerate tissue, but Heather pulls her and the other Exiles back to the crystal Palace, leaving Beak and Angel on Earth 616. 
HOUSE OF M #7 
The same day as HOM 6. As the heroes battle Genoshan forces, Strange discovers that it was Pietro, not Magneto, who convinced Wanda to reshape reality. Hawkeye shoots Wanda with an arrow and is destroyed by her fabricated son. Magneto arrives and cuts down Pietro for what hes done. Wanda takes Magneto to task and decides to remake reality again, this time with no mutants. 
MUTOPIA X #4 (4-23) 
The day after MUTX 4 (1-3). Terrorist kills Ortegas daughter and everything goes white. 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #19 (17-23) 
The same day as NX 19 (1-16) and HOM 7. The New Mutants and Hellions free the human prisoners of Project Genesis. Illyana teleports the prisoners to safety as everyone else faces down the newly arrived Sunfire and his forces in a last stand. The world goes white around them. 
EXILES #71 (20) 
The same day as EXILES 70 (1-19) and HOM 7. The world goes white around Barnell and Angel. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #17 
The same day as C&D 16 (19-21). We see scenes from HOM 2 in this issue. Wade, Sam, and Theresa may have shifted forward in time in the mainstream MU while hopping from reality to reality. The Mr. Sinister of the alternate reality shows the trio around and explains his lifes work. Sinister captures Wade, planning to use his DNA to accelerate the maturation of baby Nathan. Deadpool escapes and takes the child, but cannot teleport away as Wandas reality warping reaches this reality. 

-edit- I've moved Iron Man: HoM #1 (1-12) up one day, and fixed the Hulk's FB in #84. 

How does that look?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 23 Nov 2005 12:40 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 05:36 am    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
CABLE & DEADPOOL #17 
The same day as C&D 16 (19-21). We see scenes from HOM 2 in this issue. Wade, Sam, and Theresa may have shifted forward in time in the mainstream MU while hopping from reality to reality. The Mr. Sinister of the alternate reality shows the trio around and explains his lifes work. Sinister captures Wade, planning to use his DNA to accelerate the maturation of baby Nathan. Deadpool escapes and takes the child, but cannot teleport away as Wandas reality warping reaches this reality. 
<<<

How does that look? 

Leaving aside the time-jumping issue, which I've made my feelings clear on , the bodyslide DOES kick in at the last moment before the warp hits (presumably as MU-Providence is restored), which is a plot point the following issue.

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 05:58 am    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
How does that look? 
<<<

Not bad, but I have a few niggles here and there. 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Hulk and Rappaccini dine together. They're interrupted by Scorpion, who reports that they've been pinged by sonar(alluded to in p3). Bruce hulks up to get a whale to hide them. 
<<<

That's a flashback. 


Quote: 
>>>
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1 (13-22) 
The same night as IM:HOM 1 (1-12). Tony learns Pym is missing and searches for him. 
<<<

No, it's the following day. Pages 12-13 are broad daylight, following a night scene in pages 10-11. 
I point you to my analysis for more details. 

Er, wait a second. Why have you put IM:HOM 3 after HOM 5 ? There's lots of room before that, why not place it there ? 


Also, you've written this chronology as if everywhere was in the same timezone. It doesn't actually matter much, but I just wanted to remind it to you. 

An idea to avoid cramming (nearly) all of HOM 3-5 in the same day (and contradicting visual clues) : divide PULSE 10 in two parts : 
- pages 1-4 and 6-10, the scene at Stark Tower and the redaction conference, just after the scenes in HOM 3 
- pages 5 and 11-22, involving Hawkeye, after HOM 5 
This way, we can easily put a few days between HOM 3 and 5. The Pulse is a weekly magazine (as is explicitely said in PULSE 1), so there is no problem with Kat still working on her article. 
It only involves taking ONE page out of sequence. What do you think ?

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 07:41 am    
By Hotcharokey

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
IRON MAN: HOUSE OF M #1 (13-22) 
The same night as IM:HOM 1 (1-12). Tony learns Pym is missing and searches for him. 
<<<

No, it's the following day. Pages 12-13 are broad daylight, following a night scene in pages 10-11. 
<<<

What leads you to believe that it is broad daylight? Is it those white things in the background? I don't believe that those white things are windows. To me, they appear to be light panels or some sort of screens. This would be consistent with the computer screens on previous pages. (See pages 8 and 10.)

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 08:20 am    
By JD

Hotcharokey wrote: 
>>>
What leads you to believe that it is broad daylight? 
<<<

Page 12, panel 7 (when Tony drives to his dad's) looked like daylight to me, but I now realise it could be streetlights. 
And why would Tony expect Pym to be in his lab at night ? Pym left at 6pm, which looks reasonable. Granted, he took off with all his research materials, but Tony does not know that until he is told the results of Pym's lab's search. 

The scene makes a lot more sense if Tony has waited until next morning to see Pym, searches for him the whole day, and then goes to see his dad in the evening.

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 03:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody does raise some good points about X 165 vis-a-vis XFOR2 and about the non-existence of X-Force after XFOR2 6. I can easily see the narrative reference to Sam playing hooky from X-Force in X 165 as a writer's communication with the readers, alerting us to the fact that Sam also appears in the X-Force title. No implication of before and after appearances in the MU are necessarily intended. 

Having said that, though, I don't believe Somebody has addressed the issue of dealing with what still must be a huge time gap, which I've attempted to address with the theory of time travel. 

To address Somebody's distate for time jumping, I've come up with the following observations. 

In UX 453, Storm remarks that Robert da Costa has rejoined Cables cause. This must be a reference to Sunspots joining Cable in XFOR2 2; I cant imagine another context for this comment. Storm would know about Roberto based on reports from his X-Corp co-workers. Roberto promptly left Cable in XFOR2 3 and most likely returned to X-Corp. I propose that UX 450-454 occur immediately after XFOR2 3, before Storm has received word of Robertos rejection of Cables cause. 

If this connection between XFOR2 2-3 and UX 450-454 is valid, then XFOR2 3 will need to occur before UX 459, which in turn occurs before the whole Enemy of the State/Agent of SHIELD story arc in W3 20-31. That in turn occurs before SECWAR, which occurs before A4 1-15, which occurs before a bunch of appearances by a reinstated Fury, which occurs before HOM. Clearly, were dealing with a huge gap between XFOR2 3 and HOM. 

Okay, now lets consider C&DP and its relationship to XFOR2 and HOM: 
C&DP 15 (6-11p3) occurs four days after XFOR2 6. 
C&DP 15 (11p4-22) occurs four days after C&DP 15 (6-11p3). This is the time when Sam and Teresa go reality hopping after Wade. If theres no time travel involved in this dimension hopping, then were probably talking about the dimension hopping taking perhaps a couple of days or so. And that dimension hopping intersects with the latter part of HOM, which itself seems to be taking several days. 

So were saying that XFOR2 6 occurs perhaps a week before HOM. And XFOR2 6 follows directly after XFOR2 4-5. So XFOR2 3 occurs long before HOM and XFOR2 4 occurs perhaps a week before HOM. Without time travel involved, this necessitates a huge gap of several months between XFOR2 3 and 4. It would also mean that Logan likely appears in XFOR2 between BP4 9 and HOM 1. Is this plausible? 

Well, lets return to C&DP and work backwards from XFOR2 6: 
C&DP 15 (1-5) occurs days before C&DP 15 (6-11p3), so that places C&DP 15 (1-5) around the time of XFOR2 6 (again, about a week before HOM, as noted above). 
C&DP 14 (21-22) isnt likely to occur long before C&DP 15 (1-5), given that Wade is in Black Boxs care during that time. 
C&DP 14 (21-22) occurs four days after C&DP 14 (1-20). 
C&DP 14 (1-20) continues directly from C&DP 13. 
C&DP 13 occurs a month after C&DP 12 (1-21p3). 
C&DP 12 (1-21p3) continues directly from C&DP 11 (19p6-22) 
C&DP 11 (19p6-22) occurs the day after C&DP 11 (1-19p5) 
C&DP 11 (1-19p5) occurs three days after C&DP 10. 
C&DP 10 continues directly from C&DP 9. 
C&DP 9 occurs the day after C&DP 8. 

So we have the story arc in C&DP 8-12 occurring perhaps a month and a half before HOM. This is a story that features the Astonishing X-Men and Fury in charge of SHIELD. On the surface, that seems fine as it would situate C&DP 8-12 in that period after A4 15 in which Fury (presumably) has regained control of SHIELD. (Lets just not pay much attention to that little detail called publication order.) 

Given the storyline, C&DP 6 (17-21) and C&DP 7 likely occur shortly before C&DP 8. The story arc that runs from C&DP 1 through page 16 of C&DP involves a walking Charles Xavier in his Morrison costume, so those early issues must occur prior to Xaviers crippling by Xorneto way back in X 146. 

So putting a big gap between XFOR2 3 and 4 appears to necessitate a huge gap of more than just weeks between pages 16 and 17 of C&DP 6. Again, is this plausible? 

And BTW, C&DP 20 occurs a few months after XFOR2 6, so if the above scenario is valid, then the current story arc in C&DP occurs months after HOM. 

Now there are those of you who say, Who gives a crap about those temporal references? When you start trying to reconcile them all across titles, youre just asking for trouble. Ignore em! But does it make sense to ignore all these in-story references just to throw out a theory about Wade, Sam, and Teresa time traveling as they go dimension-hopping (which is neither proved nor disproved in the books themselves)?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Nov 2005 05:31 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In UX 453, Storm remarks that Robert da Costa has rejoined Cables cause. This must be a reference to Sunspots joining Cable in XFOR2 2; I cant imagine another context for this comment. Storm would know about Roberto based on reports from his X-Corp co-workers. Roberto promptly left Cable in XFOR2 3 and most likely returned to X-Corp. I propose that UX 450-454 occur immediately after XFOR2 3, before Storm has received word of Robertos rejection of Cables cause. 
<<<

I'd say that rather than making it a reference to X-Force, make it a reference to the more general movement calling Cable "The Saviour" with Roberto providing money and possibly communications tech to help Cable out. Given Cable's public image after C/D #7-10 (come on... the $%^&ing FIXER is calling him "the Saviour"), calling that "a cause" is hardly out of the question, so put this between C/D #12 and #13 rather than issues of X-Force. 


Quote: 
>>>
Okay, now lets consider C&DP and its relationship to XFOR2 and HOM: 
C&DP 15 (6-11p3) occurs four days after XFOR2 6. 
C&DP 15 (11p4-22) occurs four days after C&DP 15 (6-11p3). This is the time when Sam and Teresa go reality hopping after Wade. If theres no time travel involved in this dimension hopping, then were probably talking about the dimension hopping taking perhaps a couple of days or so. And that dimension hopping intersects with the latter part of HOM, which itself seems to be taking several days. 
<<<

Like I said, there's only a day between C/D #15 p6 and C/D #18 p11 according to Siryn (from her perspective), and I'd call her a more reliable guide than DP, who's only reliable in his unreliability. 

Personally, I'd say that the HoM warp included a time-dilation element and be done with it if that could be made to work with Uncanny (which was already out-of-sync with C/D anyway, given that Rachel, Psylocke, CapB and Meggan get HoMed when DP, Cannonballs and Siryn don't. Do these things not have edi-tors?). 

And you missed Shatterstar saying the fight "with Guthrie... but he started it" (X-Force #3 - Cable confirms they're referring to Cannonball) was "a few days ago" in X-Force #4. Can't be more than two-and-a-bit though, given that Deadpool appears shortly after in a sequence which needs to take place between C/D #20 p20 and p21, before getting knocked out. 


Quote: 
>>>
And BTW, C&DP 20 occurs a few months after XFOR2 6, so if the above scenario is valid, then the current story arc in C&DP occurs months after HOM. 
<<<

No, it occurs "a few months" after the events of C/D #7-12, which are - on any reading - a month or so before X-Force v2. 


Quote: 
>>>
Now there are those of you who say, Who gives a crap about those temporal references? When you start trying to reconcile them all across titles, youre just asking for trouble. Ignore em! But does it make sense to ignore all these in-story references just to throw out a theory about Wade, Sam, and Teresa time traveling as they go dimension-hopping (which is neither proved nor disproved in the books themselves)? 
<<<

If you're talking about inserting a huge time gap between X-Force #6 and Cable/Deadpool #19, then it's disproven by the talk between Irene Merryweather & Cable, where we're told how Cable's been agitating the world governments by maintaining a high profile after he "turned himself into a Burnt Offering" (a scene that's a loose mirror-image of the end of C/D #12 - there Cable makes it clear he's going to do that, in C/D #20 we're informed that's just what he's been doing). If you try and insert a huge time gap during the time Cable's missing, where you presume CB, Siryn and DP are world-hopping looking for him, that falls down. 

Working back, I'd forgotten about the time reference of the Epilogue of C/D #14, but Deadpool's appearance in X-Force must go in that four-day gap, since Cable departs to reform X-Force at the end of his talk with DP in C/D #14 (p20), and DP's being experimented upon from then until he bodyslides away to kill Cable in C/D #15. Which in turn means the X-Force series can't be stretched itself. 

If stretching is absolutely needed, I'd stretch the time between C/D #12 and #13 most readily. Despite Irene's protests in #13, Cable is obviously in decent shape at the end of #12, and even if he has been spending most of his time sleeping, he could have been spending the rest of it on TV via videolink 

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 10:06 am
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody said: 
>>>
I'd say that rather than making it a reference to X-Force, make it a reference to the more general movement calling Cable "The Saviour" with Roberto providing money and possibly communications tech to help Cable out. Given Cable's public image after C/D #7-10 (come on... the $%^&ing FIXER is calling him "the Saviour"), calling that "a cause" is hardly out of the question, so put this between C/D #12 and #13 rather than issues of X-Force.  
<<<

You make a good point. I think that should work fine.  


Somebody said: 
>>>
Deadpool's appearance in X-Force must go in that four-day gap, since Cable departs to reform X-Force at the end of his talk with DP in C/D #14 (p20), and DP's being experimented upon from then until he bodyslides away to kill Cable in C/D #15. Which in turn means the X-Force series can't be stretched itself.  
<<<

Another good point. So we have the following chronology: 
C&DP 12 
UX 450-454 (during the "month" between C&DP 12 and 13) 
C&DP 13 -- "a month" after C&DP 12 
C&DP 14 (1-20) -- same day as C&DP 13 
XFOR2 1-6 (during the "four days"* between pages 20 and 21 of C&DP 14) 
C&DP 14 (21-22) -- "four days" (after C&DP 14 (1-20) 
C&DP 15 (1-5) -- shortly after C&DP 14 (21-22) 
C&DP 15 (6-11p3) -- "four days" after C&DP 15 (1-5) 
C&DP 15 (11p4-22) -- "four days" after C&DP 15 (6-11); the start of the dimension-hopping 

*Yes, four days does make more sense than one day, given that XFOR2 4 occurs "a few days" after XFOR2 3. 


Somebody said: 
>>>
If stretching is absolutely needed, I'd stretch the time between C/D #12 and #13 most readily.  
<<<

Well, there IS a reference to "a month" between C&DP 12 and 13, but the gap must be larger than that, and unfortunately, that's not where it's needed. The time gap must come later. 

Consider this clue...In XFOR2 5, the Thing says: "Great timing fer the Avengers t'get all mealy-mouthed about their charter. Can't afford t'run the group, my butt." This is a definite reference to A:FINALE. Thus, the entire sequence of issues above must occur sometime while the Avengers were disbanded, between A:FINALE and A4 1. Even if the dimension-hopping started around the time of A4 1, it would have to continue through A4 15 and a number of stories between A4 15 and HOM. That's some length of time. 

Consider also that the sequence of issues above may have to occur quite some time before A4 1. Does it make sense to put Logan in XFOR2 between W3 31 and A4? If not, Logan's going to have to appear in XFOR2 4-6 before W3 20, the start of the Enemy of the State story arc -- and that's a while. 

Consider also the placement of X-Men in UX 450-454. Because of X-23's chronology, UX 450-454 must occur before the Christmas story in X 165. And we have UX 450-454 occurring after C&DP 12. So at the latest, given the "month" between C&DP 12 and 13, you have C&DP 13 in January -- a good number of months before HOM and its C&DP tie-ins. That would put Logan in XFOR2 4-6 before W3 20, which may make most sense for his chronology. 

This reinforces what I was trying to point out earlier. The gap is likely to occur during the time that the cast of C&DP is dimension-hopping. 

Of course, the biggest drawback to such a huge span of time going here is that it necessitates Cable's extended absence from Providence, and who knows what kind of impact that would have of Nathan's "cause." It also necessitates Forge and Irene standing by for months on end. But this presumes that Cable, Wade, Sam, and Teresa return to the mainstream MU at a point after HOM. 

Is there a possibility that these four folks lept forward in time to interact with the HOM reality then lept back to the point in time in the mainstream MU from whence they left? That would mean that C&DP 18-19 occurs many months before HOM. It would also mean that the current story arc, which occurs "a few months" after C&DP 12 (and thus likely a couple of months after C&DP 19) would occur before HOM. I don't believe there's been any reference to the decimation of the mutant population in C&DP to date, and placement months before HOM would explain that. 

Okay, take aim at this theory... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 12:47 pm    
By Col_Fury

Now that I've adjusted the Iron Man & Hulk 'niggles,' am I correct in assuming that the only other points of disagreement are the C/DP 'time-jumping' and a possible adjustment/page re-arrangement with HoM 3-5 & Pulse 10? Everything else works for everyone?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 01:44 pm    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Now that I've adjusted the Iron Man & Hulk 'niggles,' am I correct in assuming that the only other points of disagreement are the C/DP 'time-jumping' and a possible adjustment/page re-arrangement with HoM 3-5 & Pulse 10? Everything else works for everyone? 
<<<

In my analysis of UNCANNY X-MEN, I had events spreading a bit more, with the heroes barely managing to seal the void in 48 hours. However, since #464-465 were drawn by Bachalo, visual clues about the time of the day often do not make any sense at all (for exemple, we have two simultaneous scenes taking place in the same country, the first one in broad daylight and the second at night...). I won't protest too much if you leave things as they are. 
I really like the idea that the effects of the reality warp take a few days to reach Otherworld, though. 

Other than that and the Pulse/HOM thing, my only problem is that it looks like you've put all the "at night" scenes together, even when they're at antipodes. In the real world, they are out of phase. It's all the more glaring when most of the stories try to acknowledge timezone differences (well, HOM seemed to do it very well until #5 while FF:HOM and NXM:AX are broadly compatible with it). 
In practice, this has almost no influence on character chronologies. But for a calendar, it does matter a bit (it delays all Hulk issues by half a day, for exemple).

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 03:47 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Quote: 
>>>
MUTOPIA X #2 (1-10) 
The same day as MUTX 1 (21-22). Ortega and wife argue about the Rite of Transcendence.  
<<<

Mutopia X #2, pp. 3-10, actually occurs over a two day period. 

Page 3 through page 4, panel 1, occurs the day before Page 4, panel 2. On page 3, Ortega's wife tells him that their daughter has an appointment "tomorrow" with Absolon Mercator. Then, on page 4, panel 2, Ortega and his wife take their daughter to the Center For Transformation and Illumination for the meeting with Mercator. 



Quote: 
>>>
Page 12, panel 7 (when Tony drives to his dad's) looked like daylight to me, but I now realise it could be streetlights. 
And why would Tony expect Pym to be in his lab at night ? Pym left at 6pm, which looks reasonable. Granted, he took off with all his research materials, but Tony does not know that until he is told the results of Pym's lab's search. 

The scene makes a lot more sense if Tony has waited until next morning to see Pym, searches for him the whole day, and then goes to see his dad in the evening. 
<<< 



I still belive that it all occurs on the same night. This is how I interpreted the story: 

Iron Man: HOM #1, pp. 11 (Night) Tony watches TV, remembers being a disappointment to his father as a child. (I'll bet it's safe to say that this is a false memory.) 

Iron Man: HOM #1, pp. 12 (Night) Tony works on new Iron Man armor, hoping to impress his father 

Iron Man: HOM #1, pp. 13-14 (Night) Tony finishes working on the armor and takes a walk. While passing Pym's lab, he notices that the door is open when it is supposed to be closed and locked for the night. Assuming that Pym is working late, Stark looks in and notices that Pym is not there and that his workspace has been completely cleaned out. Upon learning that Pym took his research material, Tony drives to his father's office (with his car's headlights on) and informs his father. His father tells him to go home and "go to bed." 

Iron Man: HOM #1, pp. 15 (Night) Unable to sleep, Tony gets dressed 

Iron Man: HOM #1, pp. 16-22 (Night) Iron Man searches for Pym 

Iron Man: HOM #2, pp. 1-4 (Night) Tony escapes Sentinel with his fathers help

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 07:48 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul,I'm not a big fan of either the "months pass while Deadpool dimension-hops" OR the "Deadpool jumps forward in time to HoM, then back" theory. They're both ... well, clearly not what the book intends. And this is one of those Paul O'Brien specialties where the chronology only breaks down if you compare this book to several others ... C&D's *internal* chronology holds up just fine. 

It's clear that Fabian just messed up with his "four days" reference in C&D #15. Can't we just let it go? Ignoring that ONE reference allows us to keep C&D #1-14 back where they belong, around UX #453, and keep #15-18 around HoM where *they* belong. 

Considering the title of the series, what better time to "pull a Cable"? (Yes, I know it used to be "pull a Soldier X", but you take my meaning.) It strikes me that this is one of the times where a strict interpretation of the temporal references can have NO good outcome. 

That said -- I *am* a fan of claiming that there was a time dilation effect in the HoM world -- it would explain why Deadpool jumps away and jumps back an hour later into the final day of HoM, and it would explain why, when everyone wakes up in HoM #8, it appears that no time has passed. Perhaps no (or, very little) time *did* pass as far as the rest of the universe is concerned. 

Could the time dilation theory be used to explain discrepancies in the HoM timeline? Some folks like Spider-Man and the Hulk experienced weeks of HoM time, while others experienced only five days? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 08:29 pm    
By shandrakor

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Could the time dilation theory be used to explain discrepancies in the HoM timeline? Some folks like Spider-Man and the Hulk experienced weeks of HoM time, while others experienced only five days? 
<<<

The time dialation's not a bad theory, though I wonder if it causes problems with the HoM interaction with the Corps in UXM. 

That aside, I don't really see how it would work as an inconsistant dialation within the HoM universe itself. Considering Hulk only requires a time clue or two to be ignored, and Spider-Man doesn't work without gratuitous shoehorning no matter how much time you give him, I don't think variable dialation is particularly useful.

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Posted: 23 Nov 2005 11:33 pm    
By Col_Fury

It's possible that the passage of time in the HoM will be referenced in A4 16, when it finally catches up with the rest of the Marvel Universe. But being a Bendis reference, who knows if it will help or not...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 09:54 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The time dialation's not a bad theory, though I wonder if it causes problems with the HoM interaction with the Corps in UXM. 
<<<

It would explain how, almost immediately after the chaos wave hit, CB is sent to earth and arrives the night of Magnus' birthday party (which, IIRC, was several days into HoM). As for the "48 hours" deadline, Roma could have given him "48 hours, *local time*". In fact -- given that the chaos wave is busily destroying the Omniverse while everyone waits for CB to fix the breach -- the idea that HoM time is sped up makes it *more* plausible that Roma gave him so much time. 


Quote: 
>>>
That aside, I don't really see how it would work as an inconsistant dialation within the HoM universe itself. ... I don't think variable dialation is particularly useful. 
<<<

I think it only comes in handy if you're trying to plot everything on an absolute calendar ... if you're like me, and don't particularly care that S-M:HOM seemed to take weeks while only a few days passed in HOM, there's no need to assume variable time dilation, because you just don't *care* about the inconsistencies. 

I'm suggesting it as a rationalization tool for those who need it, to avoid suggestions like "issue X takes too long and therefore must occur before in the Flash Flashback time period", and to promote solutions like "yes, all of S-M:HOM occurs between Spidey's scenes in HOM #1 and 3, even though it doesn't appear that there's enough time for it". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 05:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Paul,I'm not a big fan of either the "months pass while Deadpool dimension-hops" OR the "Deadpool jumps forward in time to HoM, then back" theory. They're both ... well, clearly not what the book intends. 
<<<

Are we sure about that? I think it's rather odd that the "post-HOM" issues of C&DP aren't part of the Decimation storylines. Heck, wouldn't you think that M Day would have a big impact on Providence? Yet, nothing is mentioned about the decimation of the mutant population in C&DP 20-22 (unless I missed something). Yes, lack of reference doesn't necessarily mean that HOM hasn't already occurred, but it does strike me as odd. You'd think that a title starring Cable "the savior" would at least mention the effects of M Day. 

I'm just suggesting that the theory of time jumping to and back from the HOM reality would avoid the need to "pull a Cable" and place current issues of C&DP before HOM, explaining the lack of reference to M Day. Perhaps the (sigh) next issue may shed light on things...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 06:11 pm    
By Somebody

I'm not so surprised - this is only a semi-X-book at most. Look at the villain/guest-star list, excluding Cable or Deadpool-specific supporting cast/villains like Weasel, Alex Hayden and Irene: 

#1-6: Lightmaster (obscure Spidey foe) + originals 
#7-10: X-Men, Silver Surfer (Cosmic), Cat (Master of Kung-Fu) 
#11-12: Fixer (Tbolts) 
#13-14: Prestor John (Defenders, etc) 
#15-18: Cannonballs, Siryn, altArchangel, altBlob, HoM-Sinister (all X), altSpidey 
#19: <None> 
#20-23: Cage (NewAv), Iron Fist, Cat, B.A.D. Girls (Cap) 
#24: Spidey 
#25: Cap 

Right now, it's swinging toward the NewAvengers end of the MU - and, BTW, Cage specifically references being an Avenger and that Spider-Woman's his teammate in #21 - so no DeciMation tie-in; it's like PAD said of the Spidey titles - they're after HoM, but how does a mutant population crash hit Spidey? 

And, from your earlier post: 

Quote: 
>>>
C&DP 14 (1-20) -- same day as C&DP 13 
XFOR2 1-6 (during the "four days"* between pages 20 and 21 of C&DP 14) 
C&DP 14 (21-22) -- "four days" (after C&DP 14 (1-20) 
C&DP 15 (1-5) -- shortly after C&DP 14 (21-22) 
C&DP 15 (6-11p3) -- "four days" after C&DP 15 (1-5) 
C&DP 15 (11p4-22) -- "four days" after C&DP 15 (6-11); the start of the dimension-hopping 

*Yes, four days does make more sense than one day, given that XFOR2 4 occurs "a few days" after XFOR2 3.  
<<<

You misunderstand - I was referring to the time between C/D 15 p11 panels 3 & 4  

Anyway, other than BendisTime&trade;, what forces the time gap in C/D to be opened up again on your calendar again? If something utterly bizarre has to happen, I'd rather say they bounce back and forth through time and end up where they started than stretch Cable's absence for months though.

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Posted: 24 Nov 2005 10:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'd say the reason M-Day isn't mentioned is because several of the issues referenced were published prior to HOM #7-8 and the Decimation event. Nobody mentions M-Day in Hulk v3 #87 or New Thunderbolts #12, either, and the reason is that the editors didn't want to spoil the big reveal. 

It's *plot point* of C&D #17 that Deadpool's teleportational harness doesn't work until the second Reality Rewrite begins -- the unspoken story reason being because Providence doesn't exist in the HoM world, and the harness only works once Providence is recreated. That indicates that there's NO time-travel involved in Deadpool's jumps. 

That aside, claiming "time travel" simply because temporal references aren't coinciding is ... well, it's lazy. Yes, it's a creative soluton, but it's so anti-intuitive, and it sets a bad precedent. 

Feel free to use it on your calendar, but there's no way on earth I could accept a "solution" like that for the MCP. 

The temporal references are, quite simply, way off. Logically, then, one set is wrong and should be ignored. Pick one and ignore it. The end. 

I must say, though, that I do like the re-interpretation of the line in UX #453 about Sunspot "rejoining Cable's cause". That's a reinterpretation that actually has some *grounds* to support it -- given that the line as it was intended doesn't work, clashing with Sunspot's extremely brief participation in XFOR2. Reinterpreting the line that way allows us to push C&D #7-14 and XFOR2 #1-6 a bit closer to the HoM event --which makes it easier, for me at least, to completely overlook the "four days" line in C&D #15. 

See, that's how to do it. Push the two bits as close together as allowed by everything else, then say "good enough" and don't let it bother you that the references didn't line up 100%. "Four days" only means "they happened close together" -- and you got them as close together as they could be, given everything else. 

No time travel involved or necessary. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Nov 2005 09:23 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'll return to the drawing board again and see what I can come up with regarding the passage of time in C&DP. The chief consideration is to maintain a logical order of events and character appearances then let the temporal reference chips fall where they may. Without time travel, at least one of the temporal references will need to be ignored. I'll see what I can do about minimizing that, though. 

That having been said, though, let's not use the argument of supposed creator intent overly much here. We've routinely discarded such presumed intent when trying to get events and comparative chronologies to match up. Remember what we did with X-Men Reload? 

In the meantime, for those of you interested in plotting HOM on the mainstream MU calendar, I've encountered a reference to show that all of HOM occurs within a single day of time in the real MU. In UX 466, Rachel says, "A couple of weeks ago, humanity went to its collective bed in a world where mutants were on their way to becoming the dominant species, in both capabilities and population [this describes the mainstream MU, not the HOM reality]. Next morning, we woke up to discover that a huge percentage of those mutants had not only lost their powers...but the gene sequences that made them mutants had been completely erased [M Day reference]." 

From this description, it's clear that Wanda reset reality so that HOM 8 occurred the morning after HOM 1. That would explain why those folks who don't remember HOM aren't confused by the unaccounted-for passage of days or weeks in the mainstream MU.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Nov 2005 10:44 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'm not talking "supposed creator intent" here -- I'm talking story flow. The problems with Deadpool's harness not working don't make any sense if you imagine that he's time-hopping. 

And yes, as far as the entire world knows, HoM #8 occured the day after HoM #1. However, watch out that we don't start to argue that the Scarlet Witch can dial back time -- Jason Doty and his HoM flashbacks will never let us be.  That's why I'm all about time compression rather than erasing/reversing the timeline. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Nov 2005 06:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, to have the passage of time in C&DP make sense relative to HOM and a bunch of other titles, I think were going to have to chuck several temporal references.  

1) The month between C&DP 12 and 13. Fuggedaboudit. 

2) The four days between pages 20 and 21 of C&DP 14. Nope. 

3) The four days between XFOR2 6 and C&DP 15 (6-11). Uh-uh. 

There are going to have to be two lengthy gaps  one between C&DP 12 and 13, and one between pages 20 and 21 of C&DP 14. In brief, I have C&DP 6 (6-21) through C&DP 12 in the fall. I have C&DP 13 and 14 (1-20), along with XFOR2 1-6, the following May. And I have C&DP 14 (21-22) through the current issue the following September. 

In more detail... 
Going from fall through spring, we have... 
C&DP 12 
UX 450-454  with Storms reference to Roberto joining Cables cause (not a reference to X-Force); debut of X-23 
X 165  Christmas, with X-23 and Sam appearing 
Other X-Men appearances I wont get into now 
W3 20-31  the months-long Enemy of the State/Agent of SHIELD story arc 

MAY 

WOLVERINE v3 #31 (19-23) 
It cannot be close to eleven weeks after W3 31 (1-18), but during this time Logan has been off the radar, searching for something and leaving a trail of corpses from Jersey to Japan. Nick Furys recuperating from his grave injuries; his left arm is in a sling. Meanwhile, Logan finds the grave of Ichiros son in Japan. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #13 
One day. Id argue that its now a couple of days after W3 31 (19-23). Logan is back in New York (Id argue for the first time since the end of the whole Enemy of the State/Agent of SHIELD affair). He mops up a residual gang of Hydra agents causing trouble in a scene thats obviously meant to be a reference to that W3 storyline. Logans costume does not sport the diamonds down the sides of the pant legs as it did during W3 20-31. (Then I have Logan returning to the Xavier Institute at long last immediately after this. Following that return, I have Scott sending Logan to find Paul Patterson in M/TU 1-FB.) It is a week after Cables breakfast with Barat, but it cannot be just a month, but rather several months, after C&DP 12. As Cable researches the Skornn, Irene, Wade, and Prester John investigate the murder of terrorist Haji Bin Barat at Providence. Wade comes to the conclusion that he himself killed Barat, and so do the others. Green trees and coats and jackets in New York. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #14 (1-20) 
The same day as C&DP 13. It may be four months, not four days, before C&DP 14 (21-22). Prester John hunts down Deadpool and battles him before Cable intervenes. Wade cant remember killing Barat because of his brain damage. Cable states that hes leaving Providence to recruit X-Force for a mission and that Wade cant remain there in his absence. Deadpool leaves Providence. 

(While Nathan scrounges X-Force together, I have Logan getting involved in the first two issues of the M/TU3 1-6 story arc, which takes two days, and which ends with this...) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #2 (19-23) 
The day after M/TU3 2 (1-18). Logan returns to the Institute, where he sees Jubilee leaving to move to L.A., which places this segment before JUB 1. A sleepy Peter Parker reports to work at school. Jubilee notes that Logan has been away from the mansion these last few weeks  perhaps a reference to his disappearance following W3 31 (1-18). Green trees in New York and topical autumn colors at Westchester. 
(This story arc continues for another day, with Nick Fury in charge of SHIELD and appearing in M/TU3 6. By this time, Cable has recruited Domino, and that leads into...) 

X-FORCE v2 #1 
One day, shortly after C&DP 14 (1-20). It is several months after XFOR:SH 3. Cable and Domino meet up with Shatterstar and they battle time-travelers looking to steal the Five Fingers of Annihilation, a sword that is capable of killing the Skornn, a mutant-eating creature the time-travelers seek to protect. Green grass and bare trees. 
X-FORCE v2 #2 
Perhaps the same day as XFOR2 1. Cable recruits Warpath, Sunspot, and Meltdown to join him, Domino, and Shatterstar; it does appear from the dialog that theyve just hooked up with Cable  to wit, Warpath notes, But how does this affect any of us now, Cable? Roberto and I both have responsibilities to X-Corp  especially now that theyve come under attack (a reference to XCAL3 5). The group discovers that Jon Spectre is in Kentucky, where he tells Sam Guthrie a future tale of Nathan. Sam apparently quit the X-Men following his injury in UX 447. Sam is sowing seeds (or maybe spreading fertilizer) in Kentucky, where we see green grass and trees  this may be an indication of spring. 
X-FORCE v2 #3 
The same day as XFOR2 2. It is a few days before XFOR2 4. Cable and company fight Spectre and Cannonball, and when Sam gets injured, Sunspot switches sides. Cable aborts his mission to get Sam and leaves him with Roberto and Spectre. Meanwhile, Skornn rises at the ruins of a Bulgarian temple. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. 

Immediately after this, Ive placed the few days of SECWAR, with Nicks presumed ouster in SECWAR 5. SECWAR interweaves with PULSE 7-8, which leads right into...) 
PULSE #9 (1-20) 
In an upstate bar, Logan rants about Fury, SHIELD, the Hand, and being raped in body and mind  placing this segment as one of Logans earliest appearances after W3 31 (19-23), and before A4 1 (1-8). 
(Right after this, Logan regains his composure and appears here...) 

X-FORCE v2 #4 
One day, a few days after XFOR2 3. Wolverine tries to free Caliban from the Watchtower, but runs into X-Force, who are also trying to retrieve him. The heroes are attacked by the Administrator of the Watchtower and Deadpool enters the fray. Then Stryfe and the Mutant Liberation Front arrive, including Cannonball and Jon Spectre. 
X-FORCE v2 #5 
The same day as XFOR2 4. Thing notes that Reed and Sue are off shopping today. Thing: Great timing fer the Avengers tget all mealy-mouthed about their charter. Cant afford trun the group, my butt. Weve been bankrupt before, didnt stop us. Johnny: Actually it did. This dialog places this issue after A:FINALE and one or both of the story arcs in which the FF were bankrupt; I have this story after both. Stryfe reveals himself to Cable as Domino from an alternate future and X-Force and the MLF, with Deadpool and Wolverine, decide to join forces to fight Skornn. Skornn shows up in Manhattan and starts eating people. The Shiar detect Skornns presence and call the Imperial Guard together to teleport to earth to battle him. The Thing and Human Torch battle Skornn, then X-Force and the MLF arrive on the scene. 
X-FORCE v2 #6 
The same day as XFOR2 5. This story may occur four months, not four days, before C&DP 15 (6-11) and a few months before C&DP 20 (2-14). Logan must appear here sometime before A4 1. X-Force, the MLF, Wolverine, Thing, and Torch battle Skornn and the Helix, the modified humans from the future who unleashed him. Cable seemingly sacrifices himself in a psimitar energy burst that dispatches Skornn. The Imperial Guard detect Skornns disappearance. 

(Right after this, I have Logan appearing in X-MEN: PHOENIX  ENDSONG #1-5, then he gets the phone call Scorcher reporting that some Savage Land Mutates offered him money to break Sauron out of the Raft. The Raft breakout occurs in A4 1-3 and Logan meets the New Avengers in A4 4-6. While this is happening, I have UX 460 (15-22)-461, which is after ENDSONG and which does not feature Logan, but does feature the students, including Hellion, so its before the end of the school year. Logan fights ninjas in JUBILEE 3. One week after A4 1-6, in early June, we have A4 7-10, which weve tied into the end of the school year shown in NX 14 and HELLIONS 1. Then, we have A4 11-13 and Logans appearance in JUBILEE 5-6 (before the end of Jubilees school year), followed by A4 14-15, in which Fury is presumably reinstated. Throughout the summer, Fury makes his many appearances as head of SHIELD after the formation of the New Avengers, in HERCULES, FOES, the M/TU3 7-13 story arc, etc. Then we have the start of a new school year, including the photos taken for NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X YEARBOOK. Then comes HOM and the parts of C&DP that tie into it...) 

SEPTEMBER 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #14 (21-22) 
One day. It must be four months, notfour days, after C&DP 14 (1-20). Deadpool shows up in Moscow and shakes down one the Black Boxs think links. Wade wants Black Box to figure out a way to kill him. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #15 (1-5) 
One day, shortly after C&DP 14 (21-22). It is days before C&DP 15 (6-11). Black Box examines Deadpool. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #15 (6-11p3) 
One day, days after C&DP 15 (1-5). It may be four months, not four days, after XFOR2 6. After Black Box orders him to eliminate the greatest threat to mankind, Deadpool teleports to Providence to kill Cable. He encounters Cannonball and Siryn, who tell him that Nathan sacrificed himself but they believe he disappeared instead. Wade suggests that he might be able to locate Nathan through their bodyslide link. 

CABLE & DEADPOOL #15 (11p4-22) 
The day after C&DP 15 (6-11), as suggested by Teresa, not the four days suggested by Wade. Forge converts Wades teleporting link with Nathan into a tracking device and Deadpool teleports to Cables location  an alternate reality in which he encounters the three of the Four Horsemen of Apocalypse. Cannonball and Siryn (her powers back) follow and beat the horsemen. Then they face the fourth horseman, War, an alternate Cable. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #16 (2-6) 
The same day as C&DP 15 (11-22). Deadpool, Cannonball, and Siryn battle Cable/War. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #16 (7-14) 
The same day as C&DP 16 (2-6). The trio meets Brother Nathan in a utopian reality. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #16 (15-19p4) 
The same day as C&DP 16 (7-14). The trio faces a techno-organic group mind in another reality. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #16 (19p5-21) 
The same day as C&DP 16 (15-19). Deadpool enters a reality in which a baby Nathan is in the care of Mr. Sinister. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #17 
The same day as C&D 16 (19-21). We see scenes from HOM 2 in this issue. The Mr. Sinister of the alternate reality shows the trio around and explains his lifes work. Sinister captures Wade, planning to use his DNA to accelerate the maturation of baby Nathan. Deadpool escapes and takes the child, but cannot teleport away as Wandas reality warping reaches this reality. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #18 
The same day as C&DP 17. Wade and Nathan teleport at the exact moment the HOM reality converts back to the mainstream MU reality (and may also leap forward in time again as he does it). The timing means that Cable is still a baby, although he undergoes accelerated maturing into a teenager. As this happens, Sam and Teresa appear and Forge determines that the teleportation harness has absorbed aspects of Nathans being. Cable deduces that Black Box is behind Wades brainwashing and sends X-Force after him, but the team ends up defeating an empty shell of Black Box, who actually resides in a computer. Nathan gets his memories back from the harness, then he cures Wade of the mental tampering. Hours later, about twelve hours before Nathan reaches his normal adult state, he and Wade spend some quality time be teleporting to Intercourse, Pennsylvania, where we see green grass and trees. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #19 
The same night as C&DP 18. In an Intercourse bar, Wade and Nathan trade stories of their youth as Cables body matures to adulthood. Green grass and leafy trees in Pennsylvania. 

(The next day is M Day.) 

Its impossible to collapse the time frame of a bunch of other titles to fit the rather compact time frame of C&DP. Besides, timing between other titles work rather well together, even allowing for Bendis (with the exception of Jessica Jones). So were forced to stretch the calendar in C&DP  basically, and appropriately, pulling a Cable. (Whats up with temporal references in Cable? Youd think this was a Bendis title.  ) 

Maybe Nathan and Jessica are in the localized same time compression... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Nov 2005 09:48 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yay! Thanks, Paul. 

Two things... 

Can't the Wolverine appearance, fighting Hydra in C&D #13, occur *during* his eleven-week killing spree, rather than afterwards? Seems to me that to place it afterwards we'd have to invent a new skirmish with Hydra, and we're ignoring a perfectly good and very long period where he's killing lots of people. 

And... 

Quote: 
>>>
Wade and Nathan teleport at the exact moment the HOM reality converts back to the mainstream MU reality (and may also leap forward in time again as he does it). 
<<<

Huh? 

-Jeph! 
 
Back to top 


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Posted: 26 Nov 2005 01:19 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I've encountered a reference to show that all of HOM occurs within a single day of time in the real MU. In UX 466, Rachel says, "A couple of weeks ago, humanity went to its collective bed in a world where mutants were on their way to becoming the dominant species, in both capabilities and population [this describes the mainstream MU, not the HOM reality]. Next morning, we woke up to discover that a huge percentage of those mutants had not only lost their powers...but the gene sequences that made them mutants had been completely erased [M Day reference]."  
<<<

Really!??!! I have got to get to the comic shop... 

If this is the case, then do we have to compress everyones appearances in HoM? For example; Magento appears everywhere, so I suggested panel splits between lots of comics to 'shorten' the time lapsed in HoM.(for the sake of the calendar) If we don't have to worry about that,(whether it's time dilaton or reversed time or whatever) I'm thinking he could have a more linear chronology. He could appear in BP4 7 first, then the entirety of FF: HoM, instead of having them mixed together, etc. 

Unless of course, we like that Doom did have a plan against Magneto in that proposed chronology...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 26 Nov 2005 04:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
Can't the Wolverine appearance, fighting Hydra in C&D #13, occur *during* his eleven-week killing spree, rather than afterwards? Seems to me that to place it afterwards we'd have to invent a new skirmish with Hydra, and we're ignoring a perfectly good and very long period where he's killing lots of people.  
<<<

I think we'd have to "invent" the skirmish with Hydra regardless. During that "11-week" period, Logan was trying to find the location of Ichiro's son, kidnapped way back in W3 20 before Logan was abducted by ninjas and got into the whole Enemy of the State adventure. I don't think Hydra would necessarily have had anything to do with Logan's quest; it was mostly the underworld and the Hand, IIRC. Also, at the end of W3 31, Fury recaps eveything that's been happening in that 11-week period; he speculates that Hydra is still active; it seems to me that if Logan's appearance in C&D occurred during that period, Fury would have heard about a skirmish between Logan and Hydra to confirm that Hydra 
is active. Additionally, I (for once) thought to use the rule of not inserting apperances from other titles into a single issue unless we had to. Although we don't know what Logan was wearing in that 11-week quest, we might assume it's the diamonds-down-the-legs costume, as it was in the rest of the whole story arc. In the C&DP appearance, Logan's no longer wearing that costume. The C&DP scene is not identified, but it looks like New York, and I figured it would put Logan back near the Xavier Institute after his 11-week trek, ready to return to the Institute. 


Jeph wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Wade and Nathan teleport at the exact moment the HOM reality converts back to the mainstream MU reality (and may also leap forward in time again as he does it). 
<<<

Huh?  
<<<

As you may have guessed, I forgot to delete that old note to reflect the new theory about time passage. 


Col Fury wrote: 
>>>
If this is the case, then do we have to compress everyones appearances in HoM? For example; Magento appears everywhere, so I suggested panel splits between lots of comics to 'shorten' the time lapsed in HoM.(for the sake of the calendar) If we don't have to worry about that,(whether it's time dilaton or reversed time or whatever) I'm thinking he could have a more linear chronology. He could appear in BP4 7 first, then the entirety of FF: HoM, instead of having them mixed together, etc. 
<<< 


Yes, eveything in HOM would be listed on a single day in the calendar. But we should still list everything in chronological order, so it's still important (for the MCP too) to have the correct order for all the HOM reality events. If that requires breaking issues into parts and mixing up titles, then let's do it only insofar as it reflects character chronologies.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Nov 2005 12:32 am    
By Col_Fury

In that case, my original suggestion for Magneto's chronology placement in my analysis for BP4 7 is the one I prefer.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 27 Nov 2005 05:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
In that case, my original suggestion for Magneto's chronology placement in my analysis for BP4 7 is the one I prefer. 
<<<

It's probably time for an updated post of the proper chronology of HOM events, incorporating recent suggestions (and even old suggestions that work better). I'm a little confused at this point. Anyone keeping up with all the adjustments?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 04:50 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

There's clearly some time distortion going on with HOUSE OF M, since the story plainly took more than a day, but everyone apparently just remembers waking up the next morning as if nothing had happened. (Which, in fact, doesn't make much sense when you consider that it's a global phenomenon and at any given time, only around a third of the population is asleep.) 

In any event, however much you compress it, there's no doubt that HOUSE OF M and its related events did occur in some sense - that's confirmed both by the movement of characters in INCREDIBLE HULK, the fact that HOUSE OF M was visible from outside the mainstream Earth in EXILES and UNCANNY X-MEN, and the fact that Izzy Ortega's daughter was shot in MUTOPIA X #4 and still dead when the normal world resumed.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 10:55 am    
By Jason Doty

Paul O'Brien wrote 
>>>
There's clearly some time distortion going on with HOUSE OF M, since the story plainly took more than a day, but everyone apparently just remembers waking up the next morning as if nothing had happened.  
<<<


Jeph! wrote 
>>>
-- Jason Doty and his HoM flashbacks will never let us be. That's why I'm all about time compression rather than erasing/reversing the timeline.  
<<<

" Time Compression" sounds like we the reader are reading the events in fast foward , so that the entire series can fit within the evening of the change, if that is the case, you were right in saying I won't let the flashbacks rest, because none of us know how much "time" is being "compressed." 


Jeph! wrote 
>>>
That aside, claiming "time travel" simply because temporal references aren't coinciding is ... well, it's lazy. Yes, it's a creative soluton, but it's so anti-intuitive, and it sets a bad precedent.  
<<<

That being said, It is how Marvel is presenting the solution with so many inconsistancies between issues by printing that the events occured over one evening, and "lazy" would be not including the entire series flashbacks and all as they are presented to the reader. 

You contend that these memories were implanted and false with the combined utilization of Professor X and the Scarlet Witch. I think he was just used by the Scarlet Witch to allow her to "see" what everybody wanted and had nothing to do with the change itself. Niether of us knows for sure, so why not include everything as presented and keep it confined like I previously suggested. 

I think that the worst precident we can set is tossing any part of a story based on speculation rather then presentation. 

On another note, when the project rules a book non canon because of non reconcilable circumstances and later Marvel references these books in a handbook or such, are we going to officialy make canon those scenes they referenced in the book or make canon the entire book except the scenes that are unreconcilable?

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 01:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
On another note, when the project rules a book non canon because of non reconcilable circumstances and later Marvel references these books in a handbook or such, are we going to officialy make canon those scenes they referenced in the book or make canon the entire book except the scenes that are unreconcilable? 
<<<

If the Handbook goes to the effort of sufficiently explaining how to reconcile the "non reconcilable" events, then the entire story is included. If the Handbook ignores the non reconcilable events, we make the assumption that the Handbook has mistakenlly referenced a story that isn't canon, and ignore it. 

And when you ask if we're going to officially make canon, nothing we do is official. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 01:49 pm    
By Jason Doty

Administrator wrote 
>>>
And when you ask if we're going to officially make canon, nothing we do is official. 
<<<

I used "official" in regards to the rules that you and the board opperate to determine canocity of a story, not that Marvel or anyone else is subject by your collective findings.

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 09:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
You contend that these memories were implanted and false with the combined utilization of Professor X and the Scarlet Witch. I think he was just used by the Scarlet Witch to allow her to "see" what everybody wanted and had nothing to do with the change itself. Niether of us knows for sure, so why not include everything as presented and keep it confined like I previously suggested.  
<<<

I don't have all the various HOM books, so pardon me if this post reads like incoherent babble, but here's my understanding of a counterpoint that's been posted here: 

What Logan wanted was to know everything about his past, which, of course, ran counter to his "memories" of the HOM reality. In him and Layla Miller were the seeds of HOM's destruction. The theory goes that Logan would have had this realization the moment he became conscious in the HOM reality. How would Logan have a backstory in the HOM reality in which he was not aware of his past? 

I suppose another theory would posit that Logan's greatest wish was suppressed for a while, perhaps because of the paradox that the fulfillment of the new reality (the granting of Logan's wish) would threaten the integrity of the new reality. 

But if all the HOM flashbacks are canonical and took some time to unfold (even with all that time compressed into a single day in the mainstream MU calendar), how does that square with Layla Miller? What was she up to all that time in the HOM reality? Again, I'm probably missing some of the finer points of HOM, so please clue me in.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 10:01 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul Bourcier wrote 
>>>
What Logan wanted was to know everything about his past, which, of course, ran counter to his "memories" of the HOM reality. In him and Layla Miller were the seeds of HOM's destruction. The theory goes that Logan would have had this realization the moment he became conscious in the HOM reality. How would Logan have a backstory in the HOM reality in which he was not aware of his past? 
<<<

Since "time" is being compressed, the minute that "time" caught up with the present could be used to explain that that was the moment that both Wolverine and Layla Miller realized every thing was wrong. We could speculate any number of reasons, but by allowing for the flashbacks as well as a longer length in other stories , we as a group do not have to bust are heads trying to force these stories to mesh so stringently, like Nightcrawler's appearance in Black Panther or the mess that House of M: Spider-Man is while also giving a complete chronological listing for all the characters that were seen in this series. 

I really dig this "time compression" because it allows for the entire story line to fit in a nice confined pocket of Marvel continuity, without affecting anything prior to it.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2005 04:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The notion that "time catches up to the present" doesn't make any sense to me. The House of M has been different from the main Marvel Universe since at least 1945, as Cap was never frozen in ice. So you're saying Wanda did the following: 

1) de-aged everyone and everything in the entire world to 1945 or earlier. 
2) set a completely new timeline flowing forward, at radically accelerated speed (60 years happening over one night). 
3) the very second that everyone "caught up to" the exact ages they were when Wanda began her warp -- that's when Logan's real memories kicked in. For ... some reason. Even though everyone else has allegedly been living their HoM dream-lives since they were born (or, in Cap's case, since 1945). 

That's ... well, it's pretty weird. 

I just remembered another scenario where characters are granted false memories and false lives, by the way ... Amalgam. Remember that? Back in "Marvel vs. DC", the entirety of both universes merged, and everyone suddenly remembered a completely different, and consistent, backstory for the fictional character they'd become. This wasn't just a one-time thing, either ... in later Amalgam minis like Unlimited Access, when Access merged two characters, the resulting amalgam had a completely fleshed out backstory, real name, etc. All of it completely fictional and all of it conjured right on the spot, at the moment of the merge. 

This is what we're suggesting Wanda did. Gave everyone, instantly, a completely fictional backstory dating back to at least 1945. 

To be honest, I don't LIKE the time compression theory. I much prefer the theory that the entire world doesn't KNOW that 5-7 days have passed, because Wanda made them forget. As far as they KNOW, they went to bed and woke up on M-Day -- and Wanda may have even shifted the earth backwards 5-7 days in its orbit, so nobody will ever notice the missing time -- but it still elapsed. 

My evidence? Over in "Exiles", the folks in the Panoptichron were talking to the Exiles visiting the HoM in real-time. (Of course, in the next issue they bopped back to the 1987 of the New Universe and proceeded to talk back and forth in real time, so that's not very good evidence.) 

In any case -- it's much SIMPLER to assume that Wanda gave everyone false memories, and made them forget five days, than it is to assume that she manipulated time. And the simplest solution is generally the best, as far as I'm concerned. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Nov 2005 06:39 pm    
By Somebody

Of course, astronomers, etc would notice that the Earth was five days out of where it should be in its' orbit... 

I think saying that everything they experienced "happened" is ludicrous verging-on strawman. But saying a week occured in a day or less fits with what we saw in C/D and doesn't hurt Uncanny or Exiles, the only other two relevant books.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2005 08:08 pm    
By Jason Doty

We know more than one day occured in the House of M crossover. 

We know that Marvel Girl in Uncanny X-Men claimed that everything occured in one evening. 

I'm saying, that if that is possible, why not the entire series. 

The Black Panther issue is clearly set in the past (Nightcrawler's appearance) and Captain America, Wolverine, House of M: Fantastic Four issues all contain flashbacks and to make House of M: Spider-Man jive obviously more time is needed then the week that was suggested. 

It was questioned that Wolverine would know something is wrong the minute the change took place, so I took the liberty of explaining my oppinion of how we could address this. 

I do not understand why everyone is so dead set against this idea, it allows for all the issues including flashbacks as well as giving those trying to tie it together ample "time" to put all the issues in chronological order that makes sense without throwing out anypart of the story while also confining it to a specific area that affects nothing prior to it. 

Jeph! wrote 
>>>
In any case -- it's much SIMPLER to assume that Wanda gave everyone false memories, and made them forget five days, than it is to assume that she manipulated time. And the simplest solution is generally the best, as far as I'm concerned.  
<<<

Your simpler solution does not address all the resurected characters as well as those who are no longer alive. The time compression theory does. 

It appears through the combination of her mutant abilities as well as magic, and possibly the agmentation of Professor X, the Scarlet Witch can do a hole lot more than previously known. It also explains why Proteus can exist outside the 616 after it was changed. 

I can make up reasons as well as anyone else, but almost all the evidance points to some form of time manipulation, and if we except it for anypart of how to address this situation, it should be good enough for all of it.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2005 09:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Your simpler solution does not address all the resurected characters as well as those who are no longer alive. The time compression theory does.  
<<<

Resurrecting dead people is probably easy when you can manipulate reality. And I suppose that if Wanda turned the clock back to 1945 then she was capable of obliterating people who weren't yet alive in 1945, only to have them reborn in the HOM universe, and that somehow forcing a rebirth process allowed these folks to achieve their life desires.  (Well, that would be consistent with Logan not achieving his desire right away; some people had to wait many HOM "years" to achieve theirs... because they had to be born again first.) 

Maybe Marvel should produce another companion HOM book, "House of M: What the...? 

Anyway, do we have an established order of events in the HOM reality yet? One suggestion: the list can be in two parts -- the chronological list of presumed flashbacks followed by a chronological list of what everyone agrees to be canonical HOM events. (We had some suggestions earlier in this thread, but I'm not sure how the final tally goes.) Folks can feel free to accept one or both lists, and the Directors will need to come to terms with what they will accept. Of course, there's the dreaded third part -- the murky area between the other two parts, featuring events we're not quite sure happened before or after HOM time "caught up with" (or not) the calendar of the mainstream MU. Agh.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2005 11:35 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Jason... 

If Wanda really did reverse time, dial the world back to 1945 and then let it play forward again ... NOBODY WOULD REMEMBER THEIR REAL LIVES. Because in this new world, they would never have lived them at all! 

The whole POINT of Layla Miller and Wolverine is that they remember the real world -- buried UNDER their HoM memories. 

Therefore, their HoM memories have been layered ON TOP OF their real memories. 

THEREFORE THEY'RE NOT REAL. 

I mean ... my God. Is there any other way to read HoM? Is there any other way to interpret the scenes where the characters Layla encounters come back to themselves? They're remembering their real lives, hidden underneath the FALSE lives Wanda created. 

Hawkeye can actually SEE THROUGH Wanda's illusions, for Pete's sake! He can read the real newspaper under Wanda's re-creation of the newspaper. How much more evidence that the HoM world is sitting atop the real world do you need? 

Wanda can reanimate the dead. We've known this since Avengers #503 ... or earlier, if you want to believe that bringing back Wonder Man was completely Wanda's doing. Pointing out that Wanda is able to reanimate the dead doesn't automatically mean that Wanda also reversed time -- the two have nothing to do with one another, as we know that Wanda can reanimate the dead *without* resorting to temporal manipulation. 

And yes, there's a time discrepancy between how long HoM appeared to take and how long the world THINKS HoM took. But you know what? So what! If Wanda can bring back the dead, she sure as hell can make everyone on earth think that the last five days never happened -- no time travel involved! 

We've only got *one* book where HoM appeared to elapse faster than normal (C&D #17). We've got two other books (Exiles, UXM) where it appeared to elapse at normal speed. 

I'm not going to hold up C&D #17 -- part three of a story whose other temporal references have already been *completely* discredited -- and use it to claim that because it doesn't sync up with the HOM temporal references, therefore time in the HOM world *must* have been going faster than normal, and therefore Wanda *must* have let all 60 years of it play out. 

No. Just no. 

Were the Amalgam flashbacks real? No. 

Did Bendis intend that Wanda had *literally* re-written 50 years of world history? Clearly not, because he's got characters whose sole purpose is to pierce the veil Wanda's thrown across the world. 

Is it sloppy writing that the world thinks no time elapsed between HOM #1-7? Maybe. But does anyone outside of hardcore calendar nuts even CARE? 

The HOM crossovers don't fit together like a beautiful puzzle. Five days have vanished like they never happened. C&D #15-18 really fuck up their temporal references. 

But NONE of that, to me, indicates that the entire 50 years of HOM history "actually happened". 

Given the reactions of Layla, Wolverine and Hawkeye, in fact, it's obvious to me that Marvel had quite the opposite intent. 

It seems to be pretty obvious to everyone else, too. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 12:40 am    
By Jason Doty

Jeph! wrote 
>>>
I mean ... my God. Is there any other way to read HoM? 
<<<

Yes, the individuals are remembering their lives the way they should have been, not are. 


Jeph! wrote 
>>>
If Wanda really did reverse time, dial the world back to 1945 and then let it play forward again ... NOBODY WOULD REMEMBER THEIR REAL LIVES. Because in this new world, they would never have lived them at all! 
<<<

And nobody does except two characters untill they come into contact with Layla Miller. It was Wolverine's "wish" to know the past. Layla Miller has thusfar been unexplained and Hawkeye had already come into contact with Layla Miller prior to his rememberance in Pulse because he was part of Luke Cage's group. 


Jeph! wrote 
>>>
The HOM crossovers don't fit together like a beautiful puzzle. Five days have vanished like they never happened. C&D #15-18 really fuck up their temporal references.  
<<<

The five days are a construct of you and others and several series are not fitting within that time frame, HoM Spider-Man, Black Panther and such. 


Jeph! wrote
>>>
It seems to be pretty obvious to everyone else, too.  
<<<

Yeah, if their allowed to throw books out of continuity to meet their ends.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 02:51 am    
By Col_Fury

Here's my thought process: 

As the various HoM books were coming out, I didn't have a frame to work within as to how long this story 'lasted.' I didn't know how much time HoM took, so I went by the main book and tried to make everything else fit within it's references, more or less. As Paul B. pointed out, temporal clues helped with this, which is why I suggested some books be split up so that they fit within the main books frame.(about a week) This affected chronologies because some books were split up to fit within those temporal references. 

We now have a reference in Uncanny that makes that frame moot. It doesn't matter if the books happened over a few days or a week, because for whatever reason, the entire thing happened over one night. The books can now occur more linearly, instead of split up. They don't need to occur in a week or whatever, they can now just... occur. As far as the Calendar is concerned, it's in one day. A far as chronologies are concerned, they're more linear because they haven't been split up to fit within a frame that no longer matters. 

For the most part, the only character that this affects is Magneto. Hulk doesn't show up in the main book. Doom doesn't show up in Spider-Man. Apocalypse only appears in Black Panther. The point is, most of the characters are pretty self-contained within HoM. 

Clearly, HoM 'happened'. But what about the history of HoM? What qualifies as the history of HoM? We don't have that 'week' or whatever frame anymore, so what is presented as 'now' and 'history'? Well, we have a handbook-style one shot called Secrets of the HoM that presents the histories of the characters leading up to 'now'. Some examples: 


Wolverine's entry ends with these three paragraphs: 
>>>
As SHIELD was restructured by its new Director, Sebastian Shaw, Wolverine was placed in charge of a special squad of mutants known as the Red Guard. It was here he met his current lover, Mystique. The Red Guard has been used almost exclusively to hunt down human terrorists and non-mutant superhuman threats. It has been more than up to the task with a 100 percent success rate. With family and friends, and a place in the world, James was finally content. 

Unfortunately, things have changed. James has begun to have nightmares causing him to question his own life and the world itself. He has attempted to drown these with alcohol and painkillers but this has proved unsuccessful. Though he hates the idea of anyone "mucking" around in his head, he even turned to the SHIELD telepaths for help, but they failed. 

These images have become more visceral and have led Wolverine to make some questionable decisions in the field. Those decisions have led Sebastian Shaw and his team, including Mystique, to question Wolverine's sanity and future role in SHIELD.  
<<<

This makes me think that when "things have changed" was when 'now' starts. 'Now', meaning when the Scarlet Witch started HoM, 'now' is when reality changed. If it were in the 'history' of HoM, why would he be having nightmares? I think the nightmares signals the start of HoM. Sadly, this means that Wolverine has been running around in the HoM for at least a few days before he remembers the real Marvel Universe. 

Almost all of the other entries just give a general background on the characters. Black Panther is trying to set up a coup, Spider-Man is famous, Magneto is in charge, the Hulk has just arrived in Australia, Tony Stark is getting ready to start fighting in the Sapien Death Match, etc. You get the point. This one-shot basically sets the history of HoM, and the only pointer clue I can find is in Wolverine's entry. 

So what does this mean? The way I'm reading this, is that the official Marvel source is telling us that the HoM starts when Wolverine starts having nightmares. The world wasn't reversed and started over, but the world was given a false set of memories/history by the Scarlet Witch. Wolverine started having nightmares when this happened, so anything that happens before this is a false memory/history. 

That would mean that the Mexico Mission seen in FlashBack in Wolverine's book did happen, because he was having nightmares & drinking and stuff in those issues. The same would go for the Spider-Man mini, because nothing was mentioned in there about Spider-Man being the Green Goblin. However, Doom forming the Frightful Four, Nick Fury training Wolverine, the Mutant/Human war, Steve Rogers becoming an stronaut, etc. didn't happen, because they took place before Wolverine started having nightmares. They are therefore false memories. 

Does that make sense? 

Now, as far as the entirety of HoM taking place in one day goes, it really only matters for the Calendar. General chronologies are unaffected, so who cares if the Scarlet Witch adjusted the planet's orbit, or reversed time, or compressed time, or whatever. Pick your favorite. The majority of the world doesn't remember the events, even though they still happened. The chronologies are unaffected, but if anyone cares how much time has passed, there's that reference in Uncanny for those that do. How everything happened in one day, again, pick your favorite rationale. 

Now that that's out of the way, and now that I have some spare time, I'll see if I can take a look at HoM again and come up with a refined suggestion for chronologies within the HoM.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 04:37 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Just as another HoM point of discussion, what's the MCP policy with regard to some of the characters that appear in House of M? I'm talking about characters like Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben, who've been dead in regular continuity for a good long while. Do we dismiss them as constructs, regard them as the real thing, or what?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 05:32 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
This makes me think that when "things have changed" was when 'now' starts. 'Now', meaning when the Scarlet Witch started HoM, 'now' is when reality changed. If it were in the 'history' of HoM, why would he be having nightmares?  
<<<

There is, however, no support whatsoever for that part of Wolverine's entry in any of the published stories. I suspect it may be a hangover from an earlier draft.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 08:15 am    
By Jason Doty

Nathan P. Mahney wrote 
>>>
I'm talking about characters like Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben, who've been dead in regular continuity for a good long while. Do we dismiss them as constructs, regard them as the real thing, or what? 
<<<

"Time compression" also explaines this, they exist while others no longer do because their lives have unfolded differently; Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Capt. Stacy, Illyana Rasputin, Proteus, Morria MacTaggert, Sync, Cypher, 
ect.,ect., while others don't, Mr. Fantastic, Invisable Woman, John Jameson.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 08:43 am    
By jephyork
Director

Oy gevalt. 

Jason, what exactly are you arguing about including? A few flashbacks from Wolverine? One panel in FF:HOM #1 where everyone's dead? It's not like we're suggesting throwing 47 books out the window ... the amount of material you want us to include is absolutely not worth the effort you're putting me through here. 

How many times have you come to these boards and suggested including something wacky, and we have eight-page threads because you JUST WON'T LET IT DROP? Star Trek/X-Men ring a bell? If I recall, we spent the first three pages of that thread not even disagreeing with you -- just trying to nudge you into presenting a more coherent argument -- and it just didn't happen. 

I've had enough. Your argument for including the HoM flashbacks boils down to "we don't know if they're real or not, so we should include them just to be on the safe side." And our counter-argument is "You're right, we don't know if they're real or not -- and you're right, we should err on the side of caution -- so, since we don't want possibly-false listings in the MCP, we should leave them *out*." 

You haven't made one other good point since that opening argument -- all your other replies to my points are just disagreeing, without presenting any new arguments -- stuff along the lines of "no it's not" or "no they didn't" or just "no". Here, let's debunk some of the recent ones: 


Quote: 
>>>
The five days are a construct of you and others and several series are not fitting within that time frame 
<<<

If you notice, I spent the rest of my previous post saying things like "five to seven days". I meant it as a generalized timeframe, not an absolute count behind which everything else is fake. Thanks for picking the one time where, for brevity, I simply said "five days" and assumed you'd know what I meant. 


Quote: 
>>>
Layla Miller has thusfar been unexplained 
<<<

What about her needs to be "explained"? How would "explaining" her make any difference to this discussion? She has the ability to pierce the HoM veil. Which she does. The end. 


Quote: 
>>>
Hawkeye had already come into contact with Layla Miller prior to his rememberance in Pulse because he was part of Luke Cage's group. 
<<<

Except as far as I remember, he specifically asked Layla NOT to reactivate his real-world memories. And he could STILL see through Wanda's illusions. This is also "unexplained", but again -- so what? Fact is, he CAN see through them. He's not just "remembering the way his life should be", he's able to LOOK AT INANIMATE OBJECTS and see the way they should be. That's the biggest goddamn clue yet that the HoM world is just layered over the real one. 


Quote: 
>>>
if their allowed to throw books out of continuity to meet their ends. 
<<<

I really don't like your attitude here. Accusing me of "throwing books out" to meet some agenda I have? What about you, and YOUR agenda of keeping everything, regardless of whether or not it makes sense? 

I'm not trying to follow some personal agenda -- I'm trying to follow the story the books tell, and reflect it properly in the MCP. My "agenda" is to do things right. 

And nobody is throwing "books" out. We're talking about three or four flashbacks here! We throw out flashbacks ALL THE TIME here at the MCP -- this is hardly a new practice. "Hmm, this flashback doesn't fit with what was established earlier ... it's a faulty memory." *delete* 

I'm going to mention the Amalgam Universe flashbacks for a THIRD time now. They ain't listed here either, and they ain't going to be, because it's clear from story context that they're false. 

You COULD, I suppose, mount some argument that the merger of the Marvel and DC universes was a cross-temporal merger that retroactively altered all of their pasts, making the FBs technically real -- but all we'd end up with if you did that is another eight-page thread and no Amalgam flashbacks in the MCP. 

To me, the HoM flashbacks are exactly like the Amalgam flashbacks. I've said that three times now, and I note it's the one part of my replies you consistently skip replying to. Maybe because it's a solid analogy? 

To me -- from my reading of the HOM books -- it's clear from story context that the flashbacks are false. 

Please note that I didn't say "I want the flashbacks to be false". I don't "want" them to be -- I don't have an agenda to make them false, come hell or high water. Rather, I *believe* them to be false -- I *believe* that's how THE COMIC BOOK is trying to present them. 

I believe that I have read the books correctly, and interpreted the story correctly. And I believe that *everything* presented in "real time" in each crossover story actually occured -- even stuff like Hulk, where more "time elapses" than elapses in the main HOM series -- and I believe that everything shown in flashback is false. 

See? Easy line of demarcation. Flashback? False. Non-flashback? Real. Regardless of the fact that Spider-Man:HOM can't occur within the timeframe of HOM -- who gives a shit? It's only a problem when you're comparing the two series -- it doesn't cause the S-M:HOM series to fall down on its own. 

It's just like Jessica Jones' pregnancy versus the timeframe in other Bendis books -- has she been pregnant for three months? Six? Twelve? Who gives a shit? It's an interesting oddity and it's a nightmare for calendar enthusiasts, but that's it. Shovel all of A #500-503 and A4 #1-13 between ends of Jessica's pregnancy and keep moving. 

Same with Spidey: shovel all of his mini into the gap between HOM #1 and whenever he's recruited -- because there's no other way to do it -- and keep moving. Just keep right on fucking going. The real-time events happened, the flashbacks are false. Simple rule, simple results. 

And I'm just about done spending forty-five minutes replying to a post of yours that you whip out in two, where all you do is say "no" and "you're wrong" and "that's not explained yet" and you don't actually mount an argument to SUPPORT YOUR END. 

Quit picking at the tiny details at the edges of my point, and focus on the point itself. Focus of what HOM and the HOM minis are telling you, rather than what you want to see. Focus on mounting an actual argument for YOUR point. 

Right now, we both agree that we don't know *for sure* if the FBs are real or not. We both agree that we should err on the side of caution. 

We disagree, because you think "caution" means "including everything" and WE think "caution" means "leaving out bits that are suspect". 

I've registered my opinion that the flashbacks are *probably* false -- with backup evidence. 

You've registered your opinion that the flashbacks are *probably* true -- but with no evidence! Picking and picking and picking at the fine details of MY evidence doesn't automatically make your point truer. 

So, you can either find some evidence to support actual time travel being involved (and you can present it in a way that won't make us declare the HoM a divergent timeline, which would negate *everything*) -- or you can mount an argument that the MCP should be all about including everything we find, suspect or not. 

Or ... third option ... if you don't like the way this particular website wants to do things, you can buy up some server space and start your own! I'm sure the "House of M Chronology Project" would be an interesting experiment, and I'm sure a lot of comic fans would give it a look. 

But either way, I'm done replying to posts where you just pull at the threads at the edges of my point. Show me your counter-argument, or just stop completely. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 08:47 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
characters like Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben, who've been dead in regular continuity for a good long while. Do we dismiss them as constructs, regard them as the real thing, or what? 
<<<
"Time compression" also explaines this 
<<<

No, it really doesn't -- not the way WE'RE all using the phrase. You mean that "Wanda reversing and rebooting time" explains their being around. 

You know what else explains their being around? WANDA'S ABILITY TO REANIMATE THE DEAD. 

We KNOW she can do this. She brought Wonder Man back to life. She brought Agatha Harkness back to life. And she did it WITHOUT reversing, compressing, or otherwise fucking around with time. She just -- snap -- brought them back. 

Because she has that ability. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 11:31 am    
By Jason Doty

Jeph! 
This is not a personel debate between you and I and I did not base my argument without merit. The minute you suggested "false memories," I was willing to concede untill others jumped on and suggested that certain issues should be tossed out of continuity because they were also "false memories" because they did not fit into what they suggested as the timeline for the series. 

Also, evidence in Uncanny suggested that the events in House of M took place in one evening, when they clearly took place over a much longer time. If time has been munipulated in anyway and is good for one argument, it should be viable for all arguments. That's the evidence 

As far as Star Trek/X-Men goes everyone and there brother came out against me and suggested I show editorial intent knowing there was no way of proving it. That's not an argument, it's a set up. And now that the Official Handbooks have eluded to it, the Handbooks information comes into question. 

If it's already decided tell us. 

Since it seems you know what you "believe" and you represent the board and everyone else agrees with you, I guess we can asume the decision has been made. 

You are correct that I have no other further proof and I won't post on the subject again.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 01:10 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think it's good that we both agree that we shouldn't throw out things like the first part of the Hulk arc, or the entirety of the Spider-Man arc, just because they don't conform to a strict five-day interpretation of HOM. 

But if that's all you've been arguing this whole time, it sure didn't come across clearly. 

But just because the world doesn't remember the last five days, doesn't mean time has been messed with. "Evidence in Uncanny" didn't "suggest that all of HoM took place in one evening". Evidence in Uncanny suggests that nobody remembers HoM taking place AT ALL. Except the few people who were protected by Doctor Strange's spell, and they remember the series occuring over its full elapsed time. 

The ONLY comic that even HINTS at the POSSIBILITY that HoM time was moving faster than regular time is C&D #16-17, and that's part of an arc whose temporal references to everything else are severely screwed. It's already completely untenable -- its temporal references MUST be ignored -- so we really shouldn't use it to infer anything about the nature of the timeframe of HoM. 

(Besides, if HoM time WAS moving faster, and when Deadpool jumped into that dimension he synched up with it ... why did Cannonballs and Siryn show up three minutes later from his point of view? If time was passing more quickly for him, "three minutes" in other dimensions would have been days or weeks in the HoM world, and that's when they would have finally showed up. Instead, they showed up after ... three minutes.) 


Quote: 
>>>
If time has been munipulated in anyway and is good for one argument, it should be viable for all arguments. That's the evidence 
<<<

Who exactly is arguing that time has been manipulated? 

The only reason "time compression" was even mentioned, aside from C&D and the fact that the world doesn't remember HoM, was to please the people -- the people that both you and I disagree with -- who wanted to toss out everything that, due to a strict temporal analysis, had to occur before the first day of the HoM world. 

It was NOT introduced as an argument to try to infer that 60 years passed in one night. 

And it came from the fans' heads -- not the books. Time compression was entirely INFERRED FROM -- not IMPLIED BY -- the comics. 

And at the moment I think time compression, as a theory, should be hereby junked. It doesn't work at all, and it opens up avenues for arguments like this exact one, that maybe the HoM WAS really around for 60 years. 

You want an explanation for why S-M:HOM took way, way longer than five days? Editorial laxness, and lack of strict ground rules given to the miniseries writers. There it is -- the real answer. Nobody at Marvel cared to enforce it or to keep track -- because it's not a big deal. 

And don't patronize me by saying that I think I speak for the entire board and make unilateral decisoons for the MCP. Of course I know I'm not the only voice here. But have you seen any other person here take your side, agree with you that the flashbacks happened? One single person? No? Okay, then maybe it's a safe assumption that nobody else agrees with you. 

(P.S., Jason, if you re-read that Star Trek/X-Men thread you might notice where I actually TOOK OVER and CARRIED your argument for you because you were unable to articulate it in a convincing way. I wouldn't say "everyone and their brother" was against you.) 


Does ANYONE disagree with me, when I assert that Marvel's obvious intention was that ALL of the "real-time" events, shown in ALL of the HoM crossover issues, occured AFTER the world burned to white at the end of HoM #1? 

If you disagree, speak up now and be counted. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 01:34 pm    
By Dhall

Jason, 
If it helps, you and Jeph changed my mind and convinced me that Star Trek/X-Men was in continuity. 

Jeph, 
I have to agree with you from my reading of HOM, that Wanda layered it over the existing MU, including false flashbacks. Since the MCP doesn't include false Flashbacks (imagine what Logan's chronology would look like if it did!) anything that is presented as a flashback and is clearly false (including character's memories) shouldn't be included in the project. 

Anything from HoM that isn't presented as a flashback, should be in the project. I do not care about timeframe, because obviously all of the HoM series do not agree on how long a period HoM occurs over. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 02:56 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
This makes me think that when "things have changed" was when 'now' starts. 'Now', meaning when the Scarlet Witch started HoM, 'now' is when reality changed. If it were in the 'history' of HoM, why would he be having nightmares? 
<<<

There is, however, no support whatsoever for that part of Wolverine's entry in any of the published stories. I suspect it may be a hangover from an earlier draft. 
<<<

If you mean that 'no support' from the stories means that no one says Wolverine's been having nightmares, then yes, you're right. However, Wolverine is drinking heavily & popping pills,(specifically, W3 33, pg8, pg12, & on pg9 Mystique mentions the pill popping, and that's just W3 33) and the handbook says it's because of nightmares he's been having. The nightmares weren't relevant to what Shaw was asking Mystique, and she just didn't want Shaw to think he was crazy, so she didn't mention the nightmares, even if she knew about them. But there's the HoM handbook, telling us why because the stories didn't. 

As for holdovers from previous drafts, so what? It's an officially published source by Marvel. If they mistakenly included something that actually explains something in the books, well, it was still published. Do we know that there were multiple drafts? Well, not really. All we know is what was published in it. If that has the side-effect of us including a FlashBack sequence that happened two or three days before HoM #2, I'm OK with that. I liked it better when Wolverine's memories shorted out immediately, but why would I disregard an official source from Marvel that actually bothered to explain it for me?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 04:20 pm    
By Somebody

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
This is not a personel debate between you and I... 
<<<

Well, I didn't have any inkling staffing issues were involved in the first 

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 04:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Ah, it's this new temp agency we've been using. 

But: 

Okay -- so the "Secrets of the House of M" book is trying to tell us that Logan's been having nightmares for a period PRIOR to regaining his memory in HOM #2. 

Annnnd, we have at least two HoM tie-in books that can't occur within the timeframe of HoM itself. 

If only we had some evidence that would allow us to extend the timeframe between HOM #1 and Logan regaining his memory somehow... 


Does anyone else like this idea? Taking the "Secrets" entry as evidence that Logan's full memories *didn't* return right away -- but fought for dominance over his HoM memories for a short amount of time prior to HOM #2? A time period that just happens to encompass, oh let's say, S-M:HOM #1-5? 

Does anyone else like this? I like this. It allows us a lot more flexibility in actually adhering to the temporal clues in the HoM books (calendar-lovers happy), it allows us to include S-M:HOM without any grumbling that the pieces just don't fit in the time alloted (Spidey fans happy), it uses in-book evidence that Wolvie didn't regain his real memories instantly (writer's-intent people happy), and it implies that at least SOME of the flashbacks in W3 #33-35 happened after the world burned to white, and are therefore real (Jason Doty happy). 

I really like this. I honstly think it will make everyone happy. Good work, Col_Fury! 

I think I'm going to go read the Star Trek/X-Men thread again now. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 08:38 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Quote: 
>>>
Does anyone else like this idea? Taking the "Secrets" entry as evidence that Logan's full memories *didn't* return right away -- but fought for dominance over his HoM memories for a short amount of time prior to HOM #2? A time period that just happens to encompass, oh let's say, S-M:HOM #1-5? 

Does anyone else like this? I like this. It allows us a lot more flexibility in actually adhering to the temporal clues in the HoM books (calendar-lovers happy), it allows us to include S-M:HOM without any grumbling that the pieces just don't fit in the time alloted (Spidey fans happy), it uses in-book evidence that Wolvie didn't regain his real memories instantly (writer's-intent people happy), and it implies that at least SOME of the flashbacks in W3 #33-35 happened after the world burned to white, and are therefore real (Jason Doty happy). 
<<< 


I like it. I like it a lot. 

In fact, I submitted an HOM chronology earlier that was based on Wolverine not regaining his real memories instantly. At the time, I had remembered reading something about him having nightmares beforehand but could not remember where I had read it. I stayed out of the discussion because I could not find the evidence to support my position and it seemed as though I was in the minority.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2005 10:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

And...we're into half-time now, HOM fans. Let's take a moment to recap and see just where we are on this spirited debate. 

We had quite a second quarter there...a little tense, but it looks like that's just what we needed, along with some new clarifications and revelations from several contributors and a moment of ephiphany from gool ol' Col_Fury, followed by a summative evaluation by Jeph. And kudos to Jason for hanging in there. 

Assuming there are no counterpoints at the moment, where do we go from here? We have several folks who have attempted to provide chronological listings of HOM events, have endeavored to weigh the canonical against the non-canonical, and have plotted things out (in whole or in part) on an HOM calendar (which may end up translating into one mainstream MU day -- and GENM 1 establishes that M-Day is a Tuesday). Those folks are Chrisday, Col_Fury, gregorynbaker, Hotcharokey, and JD. One or more of these folks may now be taking their former contributions, mixing in those of the others, and folding in the proposals of more recent posts to produce a revised chronological list/calendar. 

We'll look to such a post as a new foundation to resume play. Okay, where's the half-time entertainment?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Dec 2005 02:23 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Does anyone else like this idea? Taking the "Secrets" entry as evidence that Logan's full memories *didn't* return right away -- but fought for dominance over his HoM memories for a short amount of time prior to HOM #2? A time period that just happens to encompass, oh let's say, S-M:HOM #1-5? 

Does anyone else like this? I like this. It allows us a lot more flexibility in actually adhering to the temporal clues in the HoM books (calendar-lovers happy), it allows us to include S-M:HOM without any grumbling that the pieces just don't fit in the time alloted (Spidey fans happy), it uses in-book evidence that Wolvie didn't regain his real memories instantly (writer's-intent people happy), and it implies that at least SOME of the flashbacks in W3 #33-35 happened after the world burned to white, and are therefore real (Jason Doty happy). 
<<< 


Well, it works to explain Wolverine, but what about Layla Miller? There's no "she was having nightmares" theory for her... 

How long a period of time was she wandering around the "HoM" universe before hooking up with Luke Cage and the Human Resistance? Or is that only of importance to "Calender Lovers"? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 01 Dec 2005 02:47 am    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
How long a period of time was she wandering around the "HoM" universe before hooking up with Luke Cage and the Human Resistance? Or is that only of importance to "Calender Lovers"?   
<<<

It's only important to 'Bendis Lovers.'  

All kidding aside, wasn't Layla Miller a construct of Wanda's? It wasn't fully answered, but Dr. Strange put everything else together, and he figured that Layla was created by Wanda. Wanda didn't answer, of course. But then, there she is in the real world in HoM 8... 

However, here's the problem. In HoM 4, in talking to Wolverine, Layla says "I woke up yesterday and the world was... wrong." Why is that a problem? Because Wolverine remembered the real world a day before Layla did. Again, in HoM 4, Wolverine says "Two days ago I woke up and remembered every single moment of my entire life." 

So we have Wolverine at two days ago, and Layla at yesterday. They didn't 'come to' at the same time, so here's a theory: Layla hit puberty and got her mutant powers 'yesterday' in reference to HoM 4. Her mutant power is to see through illusions, or whatever. 

So how's this: HoM starts, Wolverine is having nightmares and eventually remembers the real world. The next day, Layla hits puberty. The day after that, Wolverine meets Layla. Soon after, reality is re-set. 

In any case, A4 16 is Bendis' follow-up to HoM, so if it's going to be addressed anywhere, it'd be there. But that won't be until, what, February? Man...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 01 Dec 2005 12:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Puberty. Brilliant. 

Oh how I love you Col_Fury. 

-Jeph! 

PS - by the way, if this is "halftime" and we're all going to catch our collective breaths and start anew, working from this new theory ... I say we start a new thread. Let this one stand for reference, but let's start a new one where we can just lay out chronologies, that doesn't have six of its ten pages devoted to confusion and squabbling. 

The halftime entertainment, Paul, is a brisk re-reading of the Star Trek/X-Men thread. 

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Posted: 01 Dec 2005 01:58 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
All kidding aside, wasn't Layla Miller a construct of Wanda's? 


Possibly, but it's far from clear. She has a home and family in the real world in HOUSE OF M #8, and she's going to be a regular character in the upcoming X-FACTOR series, so no doubt we'll get some clarification about where she came from.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Dec 2005 04:46 pm    
By Chrisday

The timeframe of Enema of the State in Cable & Deadpool seems to indicate that the entirety of the House of M takes place within a single day or so. This is impossible based on other House of M tie-ins, but there is a rational alternative explanation for the timeframe shown in Cable & Deadpool. 
As later established, the three worlds that the three pieces of Cable end up in were created once Cable left 616 in X-Force #6. These are newly created alternate realities . The knowledge of alternate timeline speed and distribution revealed in Paradise X #11 (an established alternate reality, numbered Earth 9997) reveals that the newly created timelines are stretched and run slower than the ones that diverged before it. Therefore, relative to 616, these three alternate realities of Cable as horseman of Apocalypse, Cable as messiah, and Cable as phalanx host are much slower, despite Deadpool, Cannonball, and Syrin spending only minutes in each, hours or even days would have passed in 616 time. Alternate realities running faster or slower than the normal 616 timeline from which we regularly view have also been clearly shown elsewhere in titles such as Exiles, including right now with this alternate New Universe (which is still in the 1980's). Therefore it is definitely possible that the very small amount of time Deadpool, Syrin and Cannonball spent in alternate timelines between leaving 616 and arriving in House of M 616 could be several days in 616 time, though in the perspective of Forge and others who dont remember their House of M experiences, it would perhaps seem like only moments between leaving and returning to the regular 616 universe. 

instead of using concepts like "time compression", this one is much easier and makes more sense.

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Posted: 05 Dec 2005 06:46 pm  
By Somebody

Chrisday wrote: 
>>>
The knowledge of alternate timeline speed and distribution revealed in Paradise X #11... 
<<<

*ngh-ngh* Thank you for playing, good night! 

NOTHING in the Earth X trilogy has even the minutest baring on canon.

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Posted: 05 Dec 2005 07:07 pm    
By Jason Doty

Somebody wrote 
>>>
*ngh-ngh* Thank you for playing, good night! 

NOTHING in the Earth X trilogy has even the minutest baring on canon. 
<<<

Earth X is canon to the Earth X universe and if something can be gained by observation to submit a theory it should at least be viewed as plausible since it is part of the larger Marvel multiverse. 

Hopefully we'll one day get around to getting it its own page like the Age of Apocalypse and Ultimate pages, not to mention characters that we already track have visited it: Wolverine (Days of Future Past) and Bloodstorm (Mutant-Xverse).

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Posted: 05 Dec 2005 11:33 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, I suppose the same could be said about anything. I mean Not Brand Echh is canon to the Not-Brand-Echh-verse, right? When we say it's not canon, we mean it's not canon to us. 

Having said that, as a theory, Chrisday's is as valid as any other theory. 


watching: sabrina

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Posted: 06 Dec 2005 07:41 am    
By jephyork
Director

The New Universe timeline is not "still" in the 1980s. Quasar has crossed over into it several times, each crossover occuring after the NU books wrapped -- and in fact the entire planet has been pulled into the Marvel Universe and currently exists, surrounded by a force field, orbiting the Stranger's planet. 

The Exiles are simply in the past of the New Universe timeline, back before any of Quasar's crossovers. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Dec 2005 09:01 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
The Exiles are simply in the past of the New Universe timeline, back before any of Quasar's crossovers. 
<<<

Which seems like a writing error to me, as the Exiles are NOT supposed to be time travelling in any of thier appearances. It is possible that the Exiles are NOT in the same New Universe that we are familiar with, BUT instead in an alternate New Universe, where it is still 1987.This would be much like when the Exiles revisted the Dark Phoenix saga, they were not time travelling, but instead visited an alternate world, where time moved slower, and it was still 1980. 

There's no other way to reconcile the Quasar stories, with this Exiles story line. 

And after all, why should there be a universe similar, but not the same as the New Universe. 

Dave

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Posted: 06 Dec 2005 12:23 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That, or now that the Exiles are using the Panoptichron to follow Proteus on his personally-powered journey through the multiverse, the rules are different. 

They're about to visit the 2099 universe -- I think it's safe to say that the no-travelling-through-time rules are well gone by this point. 

I love when people say "there's no other way to reconcile X with Y." 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Dec 2005 01:03 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
the rules are different 
<<<

And I love when people say "This time it's different." 

When and if we're told that the rules have changed, then I'll retract my statment. 

Dave

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Posted: 06 Dec 2005 01:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

What "statement" would that be? Your own personal opinion that this must be an alternate New Universe? There's no need for you to retract it -- nobody's asking you to. It's your opinion. You're welcome to it. 

But it does seem weird that you assume that the rule that the Exiles don't time-travel (not "can't time-travel" -- just "don't time-travel") still stands, even though the Timebreakers aren't running their operations anymore, and the villain they're following uses a completely different method to travel through the multiverse. 

I suppose they're about to visit an alternate 2099 where time is running slower, then. And an alternate Maestro universe, where it's the same deal. 

It's been advertsied that the Exiles are visiting The New Universe. This is allegedly leading up to a New Universe event in the months to come. I'd take that to mean that it's the creator's and editors' intention that the Exiles ARE actually visiting THE New Universe -- not "a" New Universe. 

I'd say the fact that they're being shown to visit other time periods means that it's IMPLIED that the no-time-travel rule is gone. But that's just my own personal opinion, and I won't retract it unless the books tell us that they HAVE in fact been visiting alternate versions of the dimensions that they've been advertised as visiting. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Dec 2005 02:48 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, 
I'm still a little fuzzy on how time travel explains how the Exiles can travel to the New Universe at a point in time, Before it was incoporated into the Marvel Universe. 

Yeah, maybe they can, but according to what we've seen SO FAR, in past issues of Exiles they can't. 

Sure maybe the rules have changed. Ok, what are the new rules? We're still waiting to find that out. 


Quote: 
>>>
It's your opinion. You're welcome to it. 
<<<

Well okay then, maybe I took this the wrong way: 


Quote: 
>>>
I love when people say "there's no other way to reconcile X with Y." 
<<<

Don't worry about it. 

Dave

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Posted: 06 Dec 2005 08:06 pm    
By Chrisday

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Chrisday wrote: 
>>>
The knowledge of alternate timeline speed and distribution revealed in Paradise X #11... 
<<<

*ngh-ngh* Thank you for playing, good night! 

NOTHING in the Earth X trilogy has even the minutest baring on canon. 
<<<


yet somehow hundreds of concepts explored in the trilogy are based on things that ARE considered canon. That's not the point of this anyway and I was using it as an example as no other source anywhere describes how the multiverse works. 

it is a FACT that many alternate realities run faster or slower than others, we see this mostly with the Exiles going to numerous alternate timelines without time travelling which are at different points in their history. The basis for this difference in alternate reality 'speed' can be used to solve a major problem with Cable & Deadpool and the House of M timeframe. How exactly the speed difference is determined is of less importance, but has been explained in places like Paradise X #11, hence the reference. 

As the three newly created alternate realities shown in Cable & Deadpool are best explained as running at a slower speed than 616, further explanation was needed to make my point. 

So I ask: Can this information be used to fix the problem of the Enema of the State timeframe around that of House of M? 


Also, regarding Exiles and New Universe: The Exiles are currently on Earth-15731 whereas the original New Universe was Earth-148611 
These are two different 'New Universes' 

in Exiles #72 we know that Earth-15731 is currently in the year 1987.

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Posted: 06 Dec 2005 09:20 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Let's get back on topic, folks. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 07 Dec 2005 07:11 am    
By jephyork
Director

Seeing as how the original topic, "House of M chronology", has been shifted to a new thread ... if we don't want off-topic talk here, should we lock this thread? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Dec 2005 06:21 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Earth X is canon to the Earth X universe and if something can be gained by observation to submit a theory it should at least be viewed as plausible since it is part of the larger Marvel multiverse. 
<<<


The problem with the EARTH X universe is that it's full of material which blatantly contradicts established continuity, such as characters having totally different origins. That's fine as an alternate universe, because it just means that things worked out differently there. But given how frequently that timeline diverges from mainstream history, I can't see how anything shown in that universe can carry any weight at all as evidence of the way things work in the mainstream universe.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 08 Dec 2005 08:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hey, look, moderators can reply to locked threads! 

Sweet, we can have the last word.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Dec 2005 12:26 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Hey, look, moderators can reply to locked threads! 
<<<

I didn't notice it had been locked, to be honest! The Reply button disappears, but the Quote one is still there.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 8

Posted: 06 Dec 2005 06:40 am    Post subject: Marvel Holiday Special 2005
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Despite the goofiness in the first story of MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2005 (e.g. Namor agreeing to play Santa, Hulk accessible by a pay phone in the desert, etc.), I suppose it's canonical. Any reason to believe that it does not occur in the present? I suppose we could use the FF's costumes as a clue, but these days, they seem to be switching costumes like Janet Van Dyne. Spidey tells Ben, "The Moleman? Yeah, I fought him once or twice, but it's not like we shared any intimate moments." Perhaps that's a clue? Or perhaps Sue Richards' short haircut? Attorney She-Hulk appears. Hulk talks dumb. Ya got me. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Dec 2005 10:37 pm
By SKleefeld
Director

Well, it must be relatively recent. She-Hulk references the time when Mole Man tried to make her his wife -- which was in Sensational She-Hulk #32-33. That's roughly around the time-frame of FF 350, by which time the FF were long past their "classic" uniform look. They didn't return to something resembling the uniforms we see here until FF3 39. I don't know if there are any issues with Namor though. 

I might point out, too, that the third story occurs "one year ago today. On the night called Christmas Eve."

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Posted: 07 Dec 2005 07:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I might point out, too, that the third story occurs "one year ago today. On the night called Christmas Eve." 
<<<

And because of that I have the FF appearing in M/HOL05 1/3 immediately after M/HOL04 1/3 -- the theory being that the FF were somehow alerted to the store theft in M/HOL05 1/3 during the party we see in M/HOL04 1/3. The hows and whys of that alert remain unexplained.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Dec 2005 08:37 am    
By wolframbane

It is likely a moot point, but the Blue Beetle from the DCU makes a cameo appearance. He briefly appears only to hav the door slammed in his face, with the slammer mumbling about Xmas carollers. Blue Beetle has officially been dead as of DC Countdown to Infinite Crisis #1. Then again, dead DC heroes tend to show up as spirits in universes they don't belong in at Christmas. The pre-Crisis universe Supergirl (dead as of Crisis On Infinite Earths #7) showed up as a spirit at Xmas to the post-Crisis universe Deadman in Christmas With the Super-Heroes #2.

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Posted: 07 Dec 2005 09:17 am    
By lkseitz

wolframbane wrote: 
It is likely a moot point, but the Blue Beetle from the DCU makes a cameo appearance. He briefly appears only to hav the door slammed in his face, with the slammer mumbling about Xmas carollers. 


I only glanced at the story in the store, but I believe you've confused Gravity for Blue Beetle. They do have similar cowls.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 08 Dec 2005 06:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yes, that's Gravity. Who, oddly enough, gets a major role in the story later on, bless him. 

It's actually a surprisingly good issue, and I'd happily recommend it. Fun stuff.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 09 Dec 2005 01:58 am    
By Col_Fury

I finally got around to reading this, and I think it's hilarious that this of all things has the first published appearance of Jessica's & Cage's baby, and not issue whatever of the Pulse. 

And yes, it's a very fun issue. I enjoyed it.(Tony's remote controlled item was great)
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 9

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 08:56 pm    Post subject: Iron Man #231
By captamr

Iron Man #231 contains one of those FBs that depict a scene from the previous issues ending. Only the FB (pg. 3 pn. 2) inside the copter is new material and affects Tony and Rhodey. This may be one of those FBs regretfully omitted that was mentioned in an earlier post concerning FBs recapping from the preceding issue. Also, Firepower is missing from this issue. 

IRON MAN 

IM 230 
*IM 231  FB 
IM 231 

IRON MAN IV/ James Rhodes 

IM 230 
*IM 231  FB 
IM 231 


FIREPOWER 

IM 230 
*IM 231 
IM 288
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 10

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 10:06 pm    Post subject: A 80-FB, 81-FB
By Dhall

LOBO 
**A 80-FB 
A 80 
**A 81-FB 
A 81 
RW 7 
M/CHL 3 

RED WOLF III/WILL TALLTREES 
M/CP 15/4-FB 
{A 80-FB} 
DD 258-FB 
A 80-FB 
A 80 
** A 81-FB 
A 81 

Hawkeye 
A 79 
A 80 
**A 81-FB 
A 81 

Scarlet Witch 
A 79 
A 83-FB 
A 80 
**A 81-FB 
A 81

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Thread 83

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 10:53 pm    Post subject: A 83
By Dhall

VALKYRIE II/BRUNNHILDE/SISTER BARBARA DENTON NORRISS 
Note: See also Norriss, Sister Barbara Denton 
DEF 108-FB 
M/:LG 5 
{A 83} <----Remove 
H2 142 
DEF 4 
A 157-FB-BTS 

The only Valkyrie in A 83, was the Enchantress, disguised as Valkyrie. The Valkyrie from the Defenders does not actually appear in A 83. 

Dave

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Thread 12

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 09:37 pm    Post subject: CA 130,131,132
By Dhall

Is there some reason that Strucker isn't credited for being in CA 130,131 and 132? (He's the guy in the white hood in these issues.) These should probably go after ST 158. Pardon me, if I'm missing some reason why he shouldn't be listed. 

Dave 

Baron Strucker 
ST 157 
ST 158 (1 - 9:5) 
ST 158-FB 
ST 158 (9:6 - 12:3) 
**CA 130 
**CA 131 
**CA 132 
S-M 76-FB-BTS 
DD:FFG-FB 
X&AF2 1 
X&AF2 2 
NF3 20-BTS 
NF3 21 
NF3 22 
NF3 23

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Posted: 10 Dec 2005 04:08 am    
By Enda80

It was a Strucker LMDB built by Machinesmith. 

http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=34530

			*	*	*

Thanks, I figured it might be something like that, but there's really no way to tell, when you're going issue by issue. 

Dave

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Thread 13

Posted: 10 Dec 2005 10:01 am    Post subject: SS 12 - FB, SS 13-FB
By Dhall

Abomination 
TTA 90/2} 
TTA 91/2 
**SS 12-FB 
SS 12 
DEF2 10 

This is another obvious FB, occuring between his last appearance, and the current issue. Abomination is held on the Stranger's planet. 

Silver Surfer 
SS 12 
**SS 13-FB 
SS 13 
SS 14 

The Surfer scouts out a mysterious island, where a group of soldiers are guarding something.

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Thread 14

Sub-Mariner 

SUB-M 25 
IM 24 <-----Remove 
IM 25-FB 
SUB-M 26 

Namor is not in IM 24.....

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Thread 15

Posted: 02 Dec 2005 02:17 am    Post subject: House of Muffins
By Col_Fury

For my 250th post, here's a revised chronolgy suggestion for the HoM. The dates I used are completely arbitrary. Here it is: 

HoM #1 (7-17)-one day... 
This section occurs after NX:AXY 1/2 and several weeks after NX:AXY 1 (19). The Astonishing X-Men team meets the Avengers at the new Avengers Mansion, which Carol Danvers (now reclaiming her Ms. Marvel moniker)has not seen before now, and which is still being kept a secret from the general public. The Avengers gathered include new and old members, including She-Hulk. Sentry is here, which places this segment after A4 10. Charles Xavier, who has physically come to New York from Genosha, has called the teams and Dr. Strange together to discuss the threat and fate of the Scarlet Witch. The heroes decide to go see Wanda. In Genosha, Quicksilver appeals to Magneto to stop the Avengers and X-Men from killing Wanda, but he refuses. We see people wearing jackets in New York. 
HoM #7-FB-the same day as HoM 1 (7-17) 
In Genosha, Quicksilver, agonizing over the fate of his sister, tries to talk her into creating a world in which everyone will be happy. Full moon. 
HoM #1 (18-23)-the same day as HoM 1 (7-17) 
The Astonishing X-Men, the Avengers, Dr. Strange, and Xavier arrive in Genosha. As they approach Wanda, she alters reality. 
New Thunderbolts #9 (20p5-22)-the same day as HoM 1 
Killgrave visits Melissa at her ESU dorm and commands her to stop inquiring about Atlas and Genis and attempts to rape her but is skewered by the new Swordsman, or so it seems. ESU is in session. Green shrubs in New York. 
New Thunderbolts #10-the same day as New Thunderbolts 9 (20p5-22), Burn to White 
It is ten days before TB2 12. With the skewering scene being nothing but a deception, Killgrave possesses Code Blue and citizens of New York to attack Melissa and the Swordsman and thirteen ESU students die in the melee. Killgrave makes it appear that Songbird killed the students. Controlled by Killgrave, the Thunderbolts arrive and battle Melissa and Swordsman. Swordsman slices Atlas, who explodes from the release of ionic energy. Much destruction ensues, then Swordsman skewers both Mach-IV and Genis. Wandas reality warping kicks in and transforms the city. 
Mutopia X #1 (1-3)-the same day as HoM 1, Burn to White 
Ortega is in the sewers. 
Uncanny X-Men #462 (1-4)-the same day as HoM 1, Burn to White 
As the XSE team battles the Weaponeers, who are again trying to take over Zanzibar, Wandas reality warping causes everything to fade away, leaving Psylocke and Rachel in a white hot room outside of reality. 
HoM #1 (24)-the same day as HoM 1 (18-23), Burn to White 
In the alternate reality of the House of M, Peter Parker wakes from a bed he shares with Gwen Stacy to deal with a crying baby. 
JANUARY 2 
Wolverine #35-FB (7)-at least 8 weeks before W3 33-35 
Wolverine and Mystique discuss Wolverines recently adopted drinking habit. 
Wolverine #35-FB (20p7)-at least 8 weeks before W3 33-35 
Wolverine tells Mystique that he once knew a guy named Nick Fury. 
JANUARY 3 
New Thunderbolts #11 (1-10p2)-one night 
Genis, Ms. Marvel, and the Howling Commandos, led by Major Erik Josten, fight Baron Strucker, the Radioactive Man, Flashback, and Andrea & Andreas Strucker. Genis has an encounter with Flashback, which unlocks Genis Cosmic awareness. The Struckers are all killed, Flashback disappears, and the Radioactive Man is apprehended. 
Fifteen minutes later, Killgrave and Ronan watch Forge, Quasar, the Mole Man, and the Mad Thinker(and possibly Puppet Master? And whos the guy with the beard?) track the photonic surges noticed during the recent fight. Josten and Gen. Dugan meet with Speed Demon to discuss the progress on a virus that will kill all Kree on the planet. 
JANUARY 4 
New Thunderbolts #11 (10p3-22)-after the midnight of NTB 11 (1-10p2) 
Unable to handle his new Cosmic Awareness, Genis freaks out and flies away. Forge notices the new photonic surges, Ronan orders a chase. Genis crashes into a graveyard, on Rick Jones grave. 
Ronan, Forge, Gen. Dugan, Killgrave, and Major Josten discuss the seriousness of the situation. Josten, Dugan, and Killgrave get the anti-Kree virus from Speed Demon, then drive off to get a hidden sentinel. 
As Genis continues to freak out, Josten attacks, piloting the sentinel. To avoid further catastrophe, Genis puts himself into a coma. 
Hours later, Ronans aid says he can minimize Genis photonic fluctuations. Dugan says that Josten has been missing for hours. A rising sun is seen. 
JANUARY 5 
Spider-Man: HoM #1-one day 
Peter Parker wakes up, works out, and shaves his head. Captain Stacy does a presentation for law enforcement. Gwen oversees takeover of Osborn Industries. That night, Peters family throws him a surprise birthday party and Green Goblin visits J. Jonah Jameson. 
JANUARY 6 
Spider-Man: HoM #2-the day after S-M: HoM 1 
Jameson reveals Peters secret and destroys him. 
JANUARY 7 
Spider-Man: HoM #3-the day after S-M: HoM 2 
Peter Parker visits a hospital patient, then battles the Rhino. That evening, Peter returns home to apologize to his family and the Green Goblin is captured and revealed to be Peter Parker. 
Spider-Man: HoM #4 (1-9)-the same day as S-M: HoM 3 
Peter escapes from his captors and battles a Sentinel. 
JANUARY 8 
Spider-Man: HoM #4 (10-22)-the day after S-M: HoM 4 (1-9) 
Gwen convinces her father and Ben to take back Peters journal. That night, Gwen, her father, and Ben steal Petes journal from Jameson. 
JANUARY 9 
Spider-Man: HoM #5 (1-17)-the day after S-M: HoM 4 (10-22) 
Gwen, Captain Stacy, Ben, and May read and discuss the contents of Peters journal. Later, Spider-Man arrives at a homeless shelter and rescues a group of humans from mutant soldiers, the humans attack him. Peter calls his Uncle Ben, who meets him on a bridge. Observing the rioting below them, which is the fallout from Peters actions, they fake Spider-Mans death, hoping to stop the rioting and the violence. 
JANUARY 10 
Spider-Man: HoM #5 (18-20)-the day after S-M: HoM 5 (1-17) 
A picture appears on the front page of the Daily Bugle, showing Spider-Man hanging from the bridge, the victim of an apparent suicide. Hulk Hogan, the Rhino, the Vulture, J. Jonah Jameson, and Norman Osborn react to the news of Spider-Mans death. In Genosha, Magneto finds a copy of the Bugle in a web with a note telling him to ease up on the humans if he wants Spider-Man to stay dead. 
JANUARY 23 
Incredible Hulk #83 (1-20)-at least 3 weeks before H3 85 
Bruce is with a group of Aborigines in the Australian Outback when AIM refugees, including Machine Teen, Scorpion III and her mother, Dr. Rappaccini & Dr. Isaacs, flee in their direction. Theyre attacked by representatives of the Australian Government, including Unus the Untouchable, Pyro, and Exodus. The Hulk drives them off. 
JANUARY 24 
Incredible Hulk #83 (21-22)-the morning after H3 83 
The Aborigine chief approves of Bruce helping the AIM refugees. 
Incredible Hulk #84-FB-the same day as H3 83 (21-22) 
Hulk and Rappaccini dine together. They're interrupted by Scorpion, who reports that they've been pinged by sonar(alluded to in p3). Bruce hulks up to get a whale to hide them. 
Incredible Hulk #84-the same day as H3 84-FB 
Exodus has an off-panel (presumably long-distance) meeting with Magneto. It is also mentioned that Unus is now hospitalized. 
The AIM refugees are in a submarine, Hulk helps hide it under a whale. Inside, Rappaccini and Isaacs argue about their respective progenitor. Rappaccini then remembers her dinner with Bruce. 
Sydney, night. Exodus interrogates Adam. He's interrupted by a missile launched from the sub; it explodes in the air and sheds tracts requesting a summit to settle things. 
Our heroes learn that the Australian government is accepting the meeting, but they smell a trap. Bruce decides to go anyway. 
Exodus telepathically attacks Bruce. Adam reassembles himself, breaks out of the workshop where he was being examined, and joins the fight. Exodus being distracted, Bruce transforms into the Hulk and pounds down on him, throwing him down to the ground from the balcony. He is acclaimed by Sydney's inhabitants. 
JANUARY 25 
Black Panther #7-FB-one day 
Storm appears on the television show Alison. 
JANUARY 26 
Black Panther #7 (1-11)-the day after BP4 7-FB 
Tsavo West, Kenya; Quicksilver is delivering ice cream from Tuscany, Italy to Storm unexpectedly. Hes trying to win her affections, Storm reminds him that shes with TChalla. He reminds her of TChallas harem, then leaves. 
Magnetos Palace, Genosha; Quicksilver & Magneto discuss Quicksilvers inability to woo Storm. Magneto asks if Quicksilver has seen Storms appearance on TV yesterday. Magneto & Quicksilver watch yesterdays episode of Alison that Storm was on, which shows Storm questioning mutant superiority. Magneto & Quicksilver argue over the topics raised, & mention that Africas superior technology may threaten mutant rule 'in a decade.' Magneto says Since you failed at undoing their romance - - Ill do it my way. 
Wakanda; TChalla & Storm discuss their relationship through a holo-phone call. Monica Lynn & Shanna the She-Devil are mentioned as being in TChallas harem. After Storm hangs up, Sabretooth teleports in & Black Panther shoots him. Sabretooth has been hired to kill Black Panther as a message to Storm. They fight, & Black Panther decapitates Sabretooth. 
JANUARY 27 
Black Panther #7 (12-13)-the day after BP4 7 (1-11) 
Magnetos Palace, Genosha; Quicksilver opens a box to find Sabretooths head inside. Quicksilver mentions that the box arrived today, & that the Black Panther must have used the transporter we gave Sabretooth. Magneto is pissed. 
Wakanda; Black Panther is talking to Sunfire, Namor, Victor Von Doom, & Storm on a holo-phone conference call, called the Council of Kings. They discuss whether to stand together now that Magneto has tried to kill TChalla, because theyre assuming that Magneto may now try to kill the rest of them. Doom declines & hangs up. 
JANUARY 28 
Black Panther #7 (14-22)-the day after BP4 7 (12-13) 
Cairo, Egypt; A smack-talkin Apocalypse is watching a pyramid being built, Magneto sends him after Black Panther. Later, in his airplane, Apocalypse is flying to Wakanda when his pilots inform him that Storm is attacking. The plane crashes into water. Namor rips the plane open & throws Apocalypse out. He grows gills & hits Namor, sending him out of the water, where Iceman freezes him. Iceman is then attacked by Storm, & then Sunfire. Storm refers to Iceman as one of Apocalypses horsemen. Off to the side, Angel & Nightcrawler argue about getting involved in the fight.(theyre on Apocalypses/Magnetos side) Apocalypse enters the Panthers Castle, & off to the side we see Monica Lynn & Shanna the She-Devil get into a fight over whos TChallas current girlfriend. Chasing Black Panther, Apocalypse runs into Black Bolt who blows him away with a syllable. Black Panther was hiding in a Vibranium box. Storm, Sunfire, & Namor arrive. 
Genosha, late afternoon; Magneto & Quicksilver discover how the assassination attempt on TChalla turned out. Theyre not happy to hear the news. 
FEBRUARY 1 
Fantastic Four: HoM #1-one day 
The Frightful Four fight and kill the Mole Man. They return to their home in Latveria to rest, Doom puts the It back into his cage, reviews the work of his underlings, has a chat with his mother and is summoned to Genosha by Quicksilver. Once in Genosha, Magneto and Doom discuss the Mole Man's demise. Doom takes his frustrations on the It. 
FEBRUARY 2 
Fantastic Four: HoM #2 (1-18p1)-the day after FF: HoM 1 
Magneto asks Doom to find a prison-dimension for holding his enemies. The Frightful Four proceed to find an anti-electromagnetic dimension and slaughter everybody there. Doom has formulated a plan to dethrone Magneto, but now hesitates. His mother encourages him to take action. 
FEBRUARY 3 
Fantastic Four: HoM #2 (18p2-22)-the day after FF: HoM 2 (1-18p1) 
Doom and the FF invite the House of M to go into the portal to the aforementioned dimension (minus Polaris, who wanders off just before). 
Fantastic Four: HoM #3-the same day as FF: HoM 2 (18p2-22) 
In the other dimension, the FF beat Magneto and Quicksilver up, then leaves them stranded there. The FF come back to Genosha and kills the Genoshan scientists, then take over. The It starts rebelling about this, but is dismissed. 
Off-panel, the It finds Polaris and together they free Magneto and Quicksilver. Theres a big fight between the House of M, their servants and the Frightful Three. The Invincible Woman and the Inhuman Torch die. Doom's mother, brought to Genosha, denies her son in true hypocritical form. Magneto refuses to kill the broken Doom and sends him back to Latveria. 
Later, Doom sulks alone in his castle. The It joins the Human Resistance at the invitation of the redhead. 
FEBRUARY 6 
Wolverine #33-FB (4-8)-14 days before W3 33-35 
In Southeastern Mexico, Wolverine and Mystique kill some members of the Human Resistance. 
Two hours later, they get ready to attend a party at the American Embassy in Mexico. Wolverine is drinking heavily and popping pills. 
Wolverine #33-FB (11-19)-the same day as W3 33-FB (4-8) 
At the party, Wolverine drinks some more until theyre attacked by members of the Human Resistance. 
Wolverine #33-FB (19p2)-the same day as W3 33-FB (11-19) 
The Mexican Governments new Sentinel has been stolen. 
FEBRUARY 7 
Wolverine #34-FB (19p2)-the day after W3 33-FB (19p2) 
Wolverines infirmary room is empty, the bloody hand a foot prints show that he left through the window. 
Wolverine #35-FB (1)-the same day as W3 34-FB (19p2) 
Mystique and Jessica Drew look around Wolverines infirmary room. 
FEBRUARY 10 
Wolverine #35-FB (9-10p3)-three days after W3 34-FB (1) 
Mystique finds Wolverine in an abandoned steel mill. 
Wolverine #35-FB (11-20)-the same day as W3 34-FB (9-10p3) 
In the steel mill, Wolverine attacks members of the Human Resistance, then talks with a hologram of Nick Fury. Fury sets off an explosion, and Wolverine saves Mystique. They share a tender moment. 
FEBRUARY 14 
Incredible Hulk #85 (1-5)-3 weeks after H3 84 
Sydney, evening. A guy named Jon is captured by some AIM grunts. His girlfriend escapes. 
Later that night. After a trying day as President of Australia, Bruce is in bed with Rappaccini and tells her he's been thinking about hulking up to vent his frustrations. Bruce mentions he's been with AIM for "a few weeks." 
FEBRUARY 15 
Incredible Hulk #85 (6-12)-the day after H3 85 (1-5) 
Sydney, dawn. Jon's girlfriend is attacked by some AIM grunts again (maybe the same ones) but is rescued by Scorpion. She tells her about disappearances among volunteering test subjects. 
Later, Bruce deals with various administrative matters, then storms off when they ask him to prop out the Hulk once in a while. Scorpion tells him they have a problem. 
Incredible Hulk #85 (13-22)-the same day as H3 85 (6-12) 
Sydney, late night. Bruce and Scorpion break into the testing facility, discovering a secret passage to a big underground laboratory where Dr Isaacs turns humans into cyborgs. Hulk smashes until Isaacs confesses that he and Rappaccini thought better than to tell Bruce about this. Rappaccini sees the scene from a monitor. 
FEBRUARY 16 
Incredible Hulk #86 (1-19)-after the midnight of H3 85 (13-22) 
Sydney. Rappaccini tricks Scorpion into activating a sleeping post-hypnotic command she implanted one of the previous nights into Bruce, and hacks into the cyborgs in order to kill him. Hulk was actually playing possum, and smashes through the cyborgs. A giant cyborg is activated. 
Now outside, dawn. The fight continues as Hulk pounds the giant cyborg through the ground and into the street. Scorpion helps Jon out of the rubble. Rappaccini "suicides" Lazlo so that he can take the blame. Hulk destroys the cyborg and the Opera House. 
Incredible Hulk #86 (20-22)-the same day as H3 86 (1-19) 
Sydney, late afternoon. Bruce orders everybody in his office(Scorpion III, Dr. Rappaccini, Dr Isaacs, & Machine Teen) to get out of Australia except Rappaccini (he knows what she's up to). Through a holographic phone call, Magneto offers Bruce to give back Australia to Exodus & Co, to which he refuses. 
FEBRUARY 18 
Mutopia X #1 ( 4-8)-one day 
One night. Human terrorist attacks concert in Sapien Town 
Mutopia X #1 (9-20)-the day after Mutopia X 1 (4-8) 
Bishop and Ortega are assigned to protect Kaufman. That night, terrorists attack Kaufmans movie premiere. 
FEBRUARY 20 
Spider-Man: HoM #5 (21-22)-some time after S-M: HoM 5 (18-20) 
Peter and his family are seen vacationing by a lake. 
HoM #2-one day 
Logan awakens in the House of M reality created by Wanda. He remembers the original mainstream MU, but others around him are living lives with pasts in the new reality. We see scenes featuring the new realitys Cap, Cyclops, Emma, Dazzler, Wonder Man, Warbird, Gambit, Bishop, Kitty, Cage, Sentry, Dr. Strange, Colossus, Beast, Hank Pym, Wasp, Storm, and Mystique. 
HoM #3 (1-11)-the same day as HoM 2 
Logan tries to figure out whats going on as hes confronted with a brand new reality. 
Mutopia X #1 (21-22)-the day after Mutopia X 1 (12-20) 
The Ortegas watch news coverage of terrorist attack. 
Iron Man: HoM #1 (1-12)-one day 
One day. Tony Stark loses to his father in the Sapien Death Match. Tony learns that Pym is studying the mutant gene and orders him to stop his research. 
Wolverine #33 (1-4)-the same day as HoM 3 (1-11) 
Shaw watches footage of Wolverine jumping off of the Helicarrier, as seen in HoM 2. Four hours later, Shaw interrogates Mystique. 
Wolverine #33 (9-10)-the same day as W3 33 (1-4) 
Mystique tells Shaw that Wolverine has been abusing pills and alcohol. 
Wolverine #33 (19p1)-the same day as W3 33 (9-10) 
Mystique recaps the attack at the American Embassy in Mexico. 
Wolverine #33 (20-23)-the same day as W3 33 (19p1) 
Shaw makes a veiled allegation, Mystiques rebuttal is that Nick Fury was behind the attack 
Wolverine #34 (1-2)-the same day as W3 33 (20-23) 
Shaw informs Mystique that Nick Fury has been dead for almost twenty years. 
Wolverine #34 (9p1-p3)-the same day as W3 34 (1-2) 
Shaw tells Mystique about Wolverines & Furys history. 
Wolverine #34 (14p1)-the same day as W3 34 (9p1-p3) 
Shaw tells Mystique that no ones sure exactly who killed Nick Fury. 
Wolverine #34 (18-19p1)-the same day as W3 34 (14p1) 
Shaw asks Mystique if Wolverine was in his infirmary room after the attack on the Embassy in Mexico. 
Wolverine #34 (20)-the same day as W3 34 (18-19p1) 
Shaw asks Mystique some more tough questions. 
Wolverine #35 (2-3)-the same day as W3 34 (20) 
Shaw recaps the interrogation, then destroys his desk. He sends Mystique to the brig. 
Mutopia X #2 (1-10)-the same day as Mutopia X 1 (21-22) 
Ortega and his wife argue about the Rite of Transcendence. 
HoM #3 (12-15)-the same evening of HoM 3 (1-11) 
Logan goes to Westchester and discovers that the Institute is a private home occupied by strangers. Theres no trace of a Charles Xavier. 
Wolverine #35 (4-6)-the same day as W3 35 (2-3), seven hours later. 
Shaw looks into some files, then confronts Mystique in the brig. 
Wolverine #35 (8)-the same day as W3 35 (4-6) 
Mystique tells Shaw how she found Wolverine so quickly. 
Wolverine #35 (10p4)-the same day as W3 35 (8) 
Shaw asks Mystique why she held back information. 
Wolverine #35 (20p1-p3)-the same day as W3 35 (10p4) 
Shaw presses Mystique on the Fury issue. 
Wolverine #35 (20p5-p6)-the same day as W3 35 (20p1-p3) 
Shaw applies more pressure. 
Wolverine #35 (21-23)-the same day as W3 #35 (20p5-p6) 
Mystique reveals that she was impersonating Nick Fury the whole time, Shaw is pleased with the revelation, and sends Mystique to retrieve Wolverine. 
FEBRUARY 21 
Mutopia X #2 (11-22)-the day after Mutopia X 2 (1-10) 
Ortega and Lara get together. Later, Bishop and Ortega investigate a terrorists safe house 
Mutopia X #3 (1-4)-the same day as Mutopia X 2 (17-22) 
Bishop and Ortega continue to investigate a terrorists safe house. 
Iron Man: HoM #1 (13-22)-the evening after IM: HoM 1 (1-12) 
Tony learns Pym is missing and searches for him. Tony storms a Sapien Resistance meeting but everybody is then attacked by sentinels. Howard hacks into a Sentinels systems and starts talking to Tony. 
Iron Man: HoM #2 (1-5)-the same day as IM: HoM 1 (13-22) 
Tony escapes the Sentinel with his fathers help. 
FEBRUARY 22 
Mutopia X #3 (5-22)-the morning after Mutopia X 3 (1-4) 
Ortega arrives home and fights with wife about Lara. 
Iron Man: HoM #2 (6-10)-the morning after IM: HoM 2 (1-5) 
Tony welcomes an envoy from the House of M. The envoy bullies him into giving the Vision project to the House of M, and Howard reams Tony for doing so. 
New X-Men #16 (1-10)-one day 
In the House of M reality, the Hellions are SHIELD agents who save the day when human terrorists attack the New Mutant Leadership Institute. 
Iron Man: HoM #2 (11-22)-the same day as IM: HoM 2 (6-10) 
Tony monitors the investigations of the envoy, then tries summoning the will to destroy his armor. He finds Johnny Storm in the armor and Johnny joins him. News footage shows that Pym has been caught. Tony and Johnny rescue Pym but are chased by easily dispatched Sentinels and mutant guards. Pym activates an anti-mutant bomb which liquefies the mutant guards. Pym reveals that hundreds of these bombs are deployed in Chicago. 
Iron Man: HoM #3- the same day as IM: HoM 2 (11-22) 
Tony, Johnny, and other robot-fighters race against the clocks to neutralize the bombs. The House of M sends the Visions to help, but theyre taken over by Howard, who reveals this was all a plan to kill Magneto. Magneto shows up and kills Howard. Tony refuses to kill Magneto and then helps clear the damage. 
HoM #3 (16-22)-two days after HoM 2 
Logan tries to look up Tony Stark at Stark Tower, but Logans SHIELD unit (consisting of an altered Mystique, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Spider-Woman, and ??) confront him. He escapes but is swallowed up by Cloak and is transported to a place where he sees Cage, Hawkeye, and their allies, which include Black Cat, Iron Fist, and Moon Knight. 
HoM #4-the same day as HoM 3 (16-22) 
Cage and Hawkeye question Logan, but Logans tracker attracts Sentinels and Cloak transports everyone present to the Kingpins office. Logan tells the group about his reality, including Hawkeyes death, and they believe him because a girl, Layla, is present who also remembers the mainstream MU. Logan remembered the real world two days ago, Layla remembered it yesterday. Cloak transports the group to the Summers residence in Connecticut, where they encounter Emma Frost. With Laylas help, Logan gets Emma to realize that theyre in an altered reality. 
New X-Men #16 (11-20)-the same day as New X-Men 16 (1-10) 
In the House of M reality, the Hellions are SHIELD agents who save the day when human terrorists attack the New Mutant Leadership Institute. When the Hellions are given the assignment of tracking down human terrorists to a hidden base in Tokyo, Noriko is cut from the squad because her father leads the resistance movement. Noriko gets David Alleyne and his friends to agree to help her sneak her father out before the raid, but allies Laurie and Sean Garrison turn out to be SHIELD moles. 
Exiles #69 (9-13)-must be before Pulse 10 
The Exiles return to Earth-616, only to discover that its been turned into the House of M reality. 
HoM #5 (1-14)-the same day as HoM 4 
Led by Emma and Cages resistance force, Layla restores the true memories of Scott Summers. Peter Parker and his family (Gwen, Richie, Ben, and May) are walking around New York City when one of his fans recognizes him. When the heroes (Danny Rand, Hawkeye, Felicia Hardy, Luke Cage, Emma Frost, Layla Miller, Wolverine, Scott Summers, Cloak, and Marc Spector) arrive on the scene, Layla uses her powers to make Peter remember his real life. Spider-Man joins the fight against Magneto. Layla also restores the memories of Kitty Pryde, Stephen Strange, Carol Danvers, Tony Stark, Matt Murdock, and Jennifer Walters. The heroes spy on Steve Rogers but decide not to recruit him because of his age. 
Pulse #10 (1-6)-the same day as HoM 5 
SHIELDs Red Guard investigates Stark Tower. Hawkeye is nearby. 
HoM #5 (15-19)-the same day as HoM 5 (1-14) 
The heroes (Wolverine, Emma Frost, Scott Summers, Luke Cage, Danny Rand, Cloak, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, Matt Murdock, Dr. Strange, Spider-Man, Kitty Pryde, Tony Stark, Carol Danvers, Felicia Hardy, and Layla Miller) gather, but the Red Guard (Jessica Drew, Mystique, Rogue, Nightcrawler, and Toad) find them and attack. The battle ends quickly when Laylas powers cause the members of the Red Guard to remember their real lives. Hawkeye disappears and the heroes decide to confront Magneto in Genosha. 
New X-Men #16 (21-23)-the same day as New X-Men 16 (11-20) 
The Hellions arrive in Japan. When Quentin Quire discovers the moles, Laurie forces him to kill himself. 
New X-men #17 (1-11)-the same day as New X-Men 16 (21-23) 
The Hellions launch their attack on the Tokyo terrorists and Noriko intervenes when Kevin Ford and Josh Foley threaten human resister Cameron Hodge, but Hodge convinces Noriko to kill him to avoid torture. The Garrisons try to cover for Quires death and Tag gets upset. 
Uncanny X-Men #462 (5-23)-one day 
The effects of Wandas reality-warping reach Otherworld, where Roma concludes that its a trans-temporal tsunami that will end all rational existence. Roma sends Brian Braddock to Earth-616 and gives him forty-eight hours to try to stop the source of the threat. Betsy and Rachel see an image of Brian flying off with Jamie Braddock, who Rachel has been seeing for months. Jamie, who notes that he has bound the womens lives and fates together, removes them from the white hot room to save the day on a reality-altered earth. 
Uncanny X-Men #463 (1-5)-the same day as Uncanny 462 
Betsy and Rachel land in the House of M reality and their memories of the real MU are quickly replaced by false alternate reality memories. There they see Brian, whose memories are also altered. 
Mutopia X #4 (1-3)-the same day as Mutopia X 3 (5-22) 
Kaufmans surgeons transform a terrorist into a perfect assassin. 
Captain America #10-one day 
An elderly House of M Steve Rogers attends a dinner held in his honor, then runs afoul of young mutants on the way home. As he nears home, he is watched by Logan, Cage, Emma, and Peter Parker, who has rejoined the heroes. Apparently, the heroes are having second thoughts about recruiting Steve. 
New X-Men #17 (12-20)-same day as New X-Men 17 (1-11) 
Now convinced of the nefarious nature of SHIELDs top-secret Project Genesis, Noriko, David, and their friends find the place where Norikos father is. 
Pulse #10 (7-22)-the same day as Pulse 10 (1-6) 
Stunned at the revelation of reality, Hawkeye goes to the Daily Bugle and talks to Kat Farrell about it. He aims to kill Magneto and Wanda tomorrow. 
FEBRUARY 23 
HoM #5 (20-21)-the morning after HoM 5 (15-19) 
In Genosha, Magneto awaits Dooms arrival in a half hour and guests are expected soon. Magneto stands at Xaviers memorial. 
Exiles #69 (14-22)-one day 
Beak discovers that Angel is a super-model and when he finds her he learns that she doesnt know him at all and that their babies do not exist. After their encounter, Angels body is seized by Mutant X. A newspaper reports of a Von Doom/Magneto summit tomorrow. 
Exiles #70-the same day as Exiles 69 (14-22) 
Mutant X, in Angels body, snatches Beak and the other Exiles meet Mutant Xs mother, House of Ms Moira MacTaggert. After subduing a couple of Sentinels, the team encounters Mutant X. Green trees in New York. 
Cable & Deadpool #16 (19p5-21)--one day 
Deadpool enters a reality in which a baby Nathan is in the care of Mr. Sinister. 
New X-Men #17 (21-22)-the day after New X-Men 17 (12-20) 
Its night in Japan. The New Mutants find human terrorists in Japan. 
New X-Men #18-the same day as New X-Men 17 (21-22) 
At the New Mutants Leadership Institute, Shan and Doug discover that Dr. Garrison is a SHIELD agent and that he caused Quires death. Garrison confronts them. In Tokyo, the New Mutants fight Pierce and the human resistance until Norikos father tells them about Project Genesis. The Hellions show up and fight the New Mutants. Surge forces Illyana to teleport everyone to the Project Genesis labs, where they see the horror of the project, designed to turn humans into mutants. When the New Mutants and the Hellions voice opposition to the project, Laurie tips her hand and uses her power to order the gang to kill one another. 
New X-Men #19 (1-16)-the same day as New X-Men 18 
The New Mutants and Hellions mop the floor with one another and a few of them are killed before Cessily is forced to slay Laurie. Sophie clears away the pheromones and is killed by Pierce. Moonstar kills Pierce. 
HoM #6-the same day as HoM 5 (20-21) 
Its a weekend evening in Genosha. Logans crew boards the helicarrier and head for Genosha, where leaders such as TChalla, Ororo, Namor, and Genis are gathering for a special ceremony for Magneto. As Dr. Strange prepares to meet Wanda on the astral plane and the rest of their compatriots attack the ceremony to keep Magneto occupied, Cloak, Emma, and Layla try to find Xavier. They encounter Xaviers grave only to discover that hes not in it. Both a full moon and a waning crescent moon are shown. 
Uncanny X-men #463 (6-22)-the day after Uncanny 463 (1-5) 
Brian dreams of the real MU and tells Meggan, Betsy, and Rachel about it. With real memories flashing to him, Brian attacks Courtney, seeing her as Saturnyne. Brian and crew hear about Wolverine going rogue from SHIELD. They then go on a mission to investigate some mutant fugitives being pursued by the Marauders in the West Country. There they encounter Nocturne. 
Uncanny X-Men #464-the same day as Uncanny 463 (6-22) 
Meggan manifests the forms of those who sent Brian on his mission to stop the House of M reality from destroying the universe, but Brian still cant remember his mission. After Betsey and Rachel encounter a quantum tear in creation in which reality is unraveling, Brians memory is restored. The Marauders pursue Nocturne and Karima shows up to slay Brian and his family for treason. 
Uncanny X-men #465-the same day as Uncanny 464 
Captain UK and Justicer Bull show up to help Captain Britain and company battle the Marauders, Karima, and the Sentinels. When the Sentinels channel their power through Karima for one big blast, Rachel and Betsey repel the blast, deflecting it into the rift in reality. This action wipes out Karima and the Sentinels, but the rift still needs to be closed. Meggan sacrifices herself to close the breech. 
Exiles #71 (1-19)-the same evening of Exiles 70 
The Exiles battle Mutant X. Moira shoots Mutant X, forcing him to leave Angels body. He enters Mimics body and, glimpsing alternate realities in Calvins memories, leaves Earth 616. Blink injects the dying Angel with a serum to regenerate tissue, but Heather pulls her and the other Exiles back to the crystal Palace, leaving Beak and Angel on Earth 616. 
Mutopia X #4 (4-23) Burn to White 
Terrorist kills Ortegas daughter and everything goes white. 
New X-Men #19 (17-23) Burn to White 
The New Mutants and Hellions free the human prisoners of Project Genesis. Illyana teleports the prisoners to safety as everyone else faces down the newly arrived Sunfire and his forces in a last stand. The world goes white around them. 
Exiles #71 (20) Burn to White 
The world goes white around Barnell and Angel. 
HoM #7 Burn to White 
As the heroes battle Genoshan forces, Strange discovers that it was Pietro, not Magneto, who convinced Wanda to reshape reality. Hawkeye shoots Wanda with an arrow and is destroyed by her fabricated son. Magneto arrives and cuts down Pietro for what hes done. Wanda takes Magneto to task and decides to remake reality again, this time with no mutants. 
Cable & Deadpool #17 Burn to White 
We see scenes from HOM 2 in this issue. The House of M Mr. Sinister shows the trio around and explains his lifes work. Sinister captures Wade, planning to use his DNA to accelerate the maturation of baby Nathan. Deadpool escapes and takes the child, teleporting away just as Wandas reality warping reaches this reality. 

Half time is over, folks! Have at it.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 03 Dec 2005 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 02 Dec 2005 12:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I LIKE IT. There, I said it. 

Two questions: Cap #10 appears fairly freestanding ... is there a chance we can move it backwards to tie the scenes of the heroes watching Cap together, rather than assuming that they watched him on two occasions? 

Also, Doom appears in Black Panther ... might his refusal to discuss a coup against Magneto indicate that he's already attempted his own coup in the pages of FF:HOM, and therefore BP4 #7 should be placed after that? 

Apologies if these points have already been discussed. 

Also, what of the Pulse HoM newspaper comic? I don't recall all the news events it recapped, but I'm assuming Pulse is published weekly in the MU/HoM ... did all the events it references occur within the past week? 

And finally, what of the interviews in the back of "Secrets of the HoM"? Any chance they fit in anywhere? 

Good work otherwise -- I really like our newfound ability to place S-M:HOM so far before the main HOM events -- it seems to make the storyline differences matter less.  

-Jeph!
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Posted: 02 Dec 2005 11:58 pm    
By Col_Fury

For Cap, I think we agreed that HoM 5 & CA 10 were two different visits. HoM 5 was during the day, with one group of heroes, and Cap was wearing casual wear. CA 10 was at night, with a different group of heroes, and Cap was wearing his military uniform, coming home from a reunion. Hotcharokey offered the rationale that some of the heroes were having second thoughts about recruiting Cap, so they paid him another visit. 

As for Doom, he's always been an arrogant SOB. He really doesn't like teaming up with others, if only because he would have to share the credit. I read BP4 7 with this in mind, but that's just my interpretation. If FF: HoM takes place before BP4 7, I would think that Doom would have joined Black Panther's coup, if only to show that he hadn't been 'put in his place' by Magneto. Again, that's just my interpretation. 

For the Pulse newspaper comic, give me a bit to go through it again.  

Secrets of HoM is divided into three parts. pg2-pg39 are file entries, pg40-pg44 is Trish Tilby interviewing Hank McCoy, Hank Pym, & Otto Octavius for her show 'Mutant Week,' and pg45-pg48 is an advertisement/pamphlet for 'Teleportation Tours,' your chance to tour the world in ten hours! 

If we want to include the interview, it would have to occur before IM: HoM 1, where Tony Stark discovers that Hank Pym is studying the mutant gene. That said, it could easily fit between Feb 10 & Feb 18, so how about Feb 11?(This placement would show Pym's anti-mutant feelings, without being to close to cluing people in on his plans shown in IM: HoM. McCoy was trying to cover for Pym in the interview, and the Hanks are still chummy in HoM 2, and later that same day is IM: HoM 1.)
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 03 Dec 2005 01:07 am    
By Col_Fury

Hoo boy. Obviously, the Pulse newspaper comic was meant to be a clever advertisement for the various HoM tie-in books. Ther're a lot of articles that are all to be continued in the various comics. 

For example, there's an article titled "Is Mutant Murderer Really Sapien Scientist?" It then talks about Moira MacTaggert, and ends with (Continued in Exiles #69-71). 

Another is titled "Green Goblin: Spidey's 'A Good Kid." It then shows an interview with Joe "Crusher" Hogan talking about his & Spider-Man's history, "Crushers" attempts in Hollywood, and ends with "I might run for governor,"(Continued in Spider-Man: House of M #1-5) 

Another: "Kree Delegation Arrives to Hopeful Reception" It details Genis-Vell & Ronan arriving on Earth, meeting Carol Danvers, and ends with (Continued in New Thunderbolts #11) 

However, earlier in the paper, there's an article titled "Hydra Splinter Group Claims Responsibility For Kidnapping", then talks about Madame Hydra speaking for Hydra. But if this is happening at the same time as the 'Kree Delegation' article, Baron Strucker hasn't been killed yet. So why is Madame Hydra leading a splinter group before the Hydra leader is killed(Strucker), splintering Hydra? Argh. 

Now, the important bits are reprinted in HoM 3, where Wolverine is shown reading the paper. Those bits talk about the Gala Event this weekend, Peter Parker spotted in Central Park with his kid, Kevin Plunder gets asylum in the US, the 'hot list/cold liste' that mentions Angel's sex scandal, etc. 

I'm happy enough to call the newspaper comic a commercial, and only refer to what's reprinted in HoM 3, if we even have to refer to it.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 04:51 am    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Hoo boy. Obviously, the Pulse newspaper comic was meant to be a clever advertisement for the various HoM tie-in books. Ther're a lot of articles that are all to be continued in the various comics.  
<<<

It shots to hell the theory that some of the events happen weeks before HOM 3, then. 
Wolverine gets hold of that Pulse edition in HOM 3. Since it is a weekly magazine, it was published at most 6 days before. Actually, it is only 4 days, because Hawkeye sees the same magazine still in sale in PULSE 10. 
Let's take the biggest possible value for that interval, and put the publication on "February 16". There is probably some little lead-in time, so we can put some events late in the day of "February 15" and they can still be ignored in the Pulse edition. 

What does that mean ? 
- BP4 7-FB is nailed at February 15 ("yesterday" reference in the edition) 
- in cascade, all of BP4 7's events occur starting from February 16 
- Mole Man is still alive in a meeting between him, Doom and Magneto on February 15, so all events of FF:HOM occur after that. 
- There's a retrospective of the Green Goblin mentionning none of the events of SM:HOM and where Spider-Man is still deemed an exemple. Spider-Man's secret is revealed in a morning, so this means that SM:HOM 2 occurs at the soonest on February 16. 
- There's a description of the events of H3 83, which puts that issue on February 15 (since there is no mention of Hulk taking over Australia, which happens the next day). 
- Uh oh... The edition mentions CA5 10 as happening "last night" (February 15), which can't be right, except if they threw that celebration twice because nearly no one attended the first one... 
- The attack on the Mexican embassy (W3 33-FB 11-19) happened "last Friday". I'm not sure whether this fits. 
- There's a mention of a premiere of a film with Lara the Illusionnist "this week" (with extensive details of what happened in it), with no mention of any terrorist attack. Actually, this "the first of two back-to back Marilyn Monroe remakes", so presumably the premiere in MUTOPIA X 1 9-20 is for the other one. So, MUTOPIA X 1 9-20 happens at the soonest on Feb 16. 
- Genis is "unavailable for comment", which probably means that he's still in stasis after TB2 11. 


I think most of these clues add up to clearly contradicting the idea that nearly two months pass before Wolverine awakens. Actually, the only scenes left before February 14 are TB2 10-11 (which happen just after the warp, and thus do not matter much) and the flashbacks in W3. 
And well, Wolverine's state of unrest in those flashbacks has another explanation than remembering the normal world : he's lacking purpose now that he doesn't have any big enemies anymore (it's clearly stated in W3 35). The actual "Wolverine's memories coming back" nightmares mentionned in Secrets of HoM probably happened between W3 #35-FB (11-20) and HOM 2. 


So what I suggest is : 
- put H3, BP4-7, FF:HOM and SM:HOM at their right place, ie just around the date of publication of the Pulse edition 
- ignore the W3 flashbacks as "false flashbacks" 
- delete that silly "one month and a half" period (January 2 to February 14) which does not serve any purpose anymore.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 08:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
Wolverine gets hold of that Pulse edition in HOM 3. 
<<<

More accurately, he gets hold of an edition of PULSE with the same cover. It can't conceivably have the same contents, since everyone reading it would be wondering why all the stories were continued in comics. The actual text of the PULSE mock newspaper special can't be given any higher status than a house ad or a comment in a letter column, in my view.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 09:24 am    
By JD

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
More accurately, he gets hold of an edition of PULSE with the same cover. 
<<<

And even more accurately, he gets hold of an edition of PULSE with the same cover but a different layout for the articles (HOM 3 gets more articles on the first double-page spread than the Pulse HoM SE). 
The one Hawkeye sees in PULSE 10 has a slightly different cover (there's an additional "Sapien Fash[ion]" insert on it). It's probably a reprint with maybe a few more articles. 

Anyway, I personally view the Pulse HoM SE as an equivalent to Official Handbook entries : the events it describes should not be included in the chronology on its own strength, but it gives big official clues as to the placement of the stories described in the actual comics. After all, these articles were written by the authors themselves, so we should at least consider these as "authorial intent". 
When they can't be right (like the Captain America one), of course we should ignore them, but we shouldn't just dismiss them when contradict some of our most far-fetched theories (such as the arbitrary placement of SM:HOM, H3, BP4 7 and FF:HOM far before Wolverine's awakening).

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 01:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The Pulse HoM edition isn't even on the same level as a Handbook -- it refers to the comics it's trailing right in the text itself. At least the Handbooks try to pretend that they're describing real events, and leave the mention of comic titles and issue numbers for the bibliography. 

If it's REALLY burning you that the articles make mention of days ("yesterday", "last week", etc., pretend it's a "Best-Of" Pulse edition, collecting the hottest news snippets from the previous month.  

But I'm with Paul -- this thing is an extended ad for HoM comics, not a comic unto itself. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 02:55 pm    
By JD

I think you've missed my point. 
I'm perfectly happy with the Pulse HoM SE, because it confirms some of the theories I got from reading and analysing the actual stories. And as the CA exemple I cited before shows, I'm perfectly confortable with ignoring some articles from the SE if they conflict with the stories. 

For clarity's sake, I'll restate my main issue with Col_Fury's chronology : it puts lots of stories long before the events of the main HOM series, and often without any reason. 

I follow Occam's razor here : why bother with giving the HoM world two months of existence when everything can be made to fit in less than two weeks without any added effort ? 

Let's run again through all the stories that Col_Fury placed before "February 15" : I cut off there because the Pulse edition in the hands of Wolverine in HOM 3 cannot have been published earlier. I will only take my arguments from the stories themselves, and completely ignore the Pulse HoM SE for this argument's sake. 

- SM:HOM : Placing it from Jan 5 to Jan 10 is ridiculous. For most of the world, Spider-Man dies at the end of issue 5 : how can a photo of him and his kid appear on the edition Wolverine has in his hands ? The Pulse is a serious magazine, they wouldn't put "sightings" of Spidey so casually if he was believed dead at that time. 
Alternative placement : From Feb 15 to Feb 20. There is even a two-day margin to allow for Peter's hair's growth. 

- BP4 7 : Currently placed from Jan 25 to 28. Why place it so much in the past ? For the sake of putting something in that big empty gap ? 
Alternative placement : From Feb 15 to Feb 19. A nice big slot, and this frees Nightcrawler for the main series (where he doesn't appear until Feb 22). 

- FF:HOM : Currently placed from Feb 1 to Feb 3. Again, why place it so much in the past ? I've never seen any reason for this explicitly stated here by anyone. 
Alternative placement : There is a lot of room between Feb 16 and Feb 22. Let's say from Feb 16 to Feb 18, so that Doom's coup happens simultaneously with Apocalypse's attack. 

H3 : Currently placed on Jan 23-24 and Feb 14-16. Again, I have doubts against placing it so early, especially the end. 
Alternative placement : We can put it on Feb 15-16 and Feb 21-23 (the ending conversation happens somewhere in the middle of the day in Australia, which means early morning at most in Genosha, so Magneto is still available for that last scene). "A few weeks" then translates to "seven days", which is roughly workable. 

W3-FB : False memories. Why else would they have bothered to narrate this in flashbacks ? 

TB2 10-11 : This happens just after the reality warp, so it will simply follow it wherever it goes. 

There, I've completely emptied the gap from Jan 2 to Feb 14, showing that this big chunk of time was completely unneeded.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Dec 2005 02:09 am    
By Col_Fury

I'm still looking at the Pulse Special Edition as a fun, clever commercial. I own it, I enjoyed it, and for some reason I have it bagged and borded.(That's probably just habit) But still, it has a checklist for which books are tie-in issues. It's an extended house ad, sold seperately. 

JD wrote: 
>>> 
such as the arbitrary placement of SM:HOM, H3, BP4 7 and FF:HOM far before Wolverine's awakening 
<<<

Well, according to 'Secrets of the HoM,' Wolverine's awakening isn't the start of HoM, but rather when he started having nightmares. If we go by that reference, they're no longer arbitrary. 


Quote: 
>>>
Wolverine's state of unrest in those flashbacks has another explanation than remembering the normal world : he's lacking purpose now that he doesn't have any big enemies anymore (it's clearly stated in W3 35).  
<<<

That's what he told Mystique, but that doesn't mean it's the reason he's restless. He had a reason not to tell her, that being she didn't think he was crazy. 'Secrets' gives us another explanation in an editor's capacity, unhinged from character motivation. Characters can lie to each other, or fudge the facts, but a third person narrator(like the files seen in 'Secrets') has no reason to. 


Quote: 
>>>
W3-FB : False memories. Why else would they have bothered to narrate this in flashbacks? 
<<<

Because it's a storytelling technique? We're learning the same information Shaw is, at the same time, to see if we can piece together the puzzle before Shaw does. 


Quote: 
>>>
showing that this big chunk of time was completely unneeded. 
<<<

Well, only if you ignore the 'weeks' that pass between issues of the Hulk, time enough for Peter's hair to grow back, and rumors of his survival to circulate. Wolverine can grow a full head of hair in two days, but I don't think that Peter has that kind of motabolism. 


Quote: 
>>>
After all, these articles were written by the authors themselves 
<<<

Really? That's pretty cool. The only one I saw was by Ed "Scoop" Brubaker on the Captain America article. But all the others were credited to Betty Brant, Flash Tompson, Kat Ferrell, and Henry Pym.(who's Jacob Gunterson on the Hulk article?) Maybe if Peter David, Fabian Nicieza, etc are at the Chicago Comicon this year I'll try to get them to sign their various articles.(I wonder if the Spider-Man article was written by Mark Waid before he left, or if it was written by his replacement Tom Peyer?) 
Thanks!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Dec 2005 03:53 am    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
such as the arbitrary placement of SM:HOM, H3, BP4 7 and FF:HOM far before Wolverine's awakening 
<<<

Well, according to 'Secrets of the HoM,' Wolverine's awakening isn't the start of HoM, but rather when he started having nightmares. 
<<<

That's just your interpretation of it ; it never says such a thing outright. On the contrary, all of the biographies seem to stop at the point when the HoM starts. For Wolverine, that seems to put the Mexico events ("questionnable decisions in the field") in the false HoM backstory. 

Any way, I'm not arguing that the HoM starts just before Wolverine awakens : my current theory puts five or six days in between. 


Quote: 
>>>
If we go by that reference, they're no longer arbitrary.  
<<<

Yes they are. In particular, I've never seen here any reason to put BP4 7 and FF:HOM in the past. It works perfectly to put them just before the events of the main miniseries, or even concurrently with the start of it : why bother with placing them so early in the past ? 


Quote: 
>>>
Well, only if you ignore the 'weeks' that pass between issues of the Hulk, time enough for Peter's hair to grow back, and rumors of his survival to circulate. Wolverine can grow a full head of hair in two days, but I don't think that Peter has that kind of motabolism.  
<<<

Can we not just dismiss Peter's hair as an art error ? After all, we are already ignoring all the visual clues in HOM 5 in order to place HOM 3 and PULSE 10 on the same day, so what do we care about his hair ? 
Really, the Pulse wouldn't run such a photo if Spider-Man was believed dead. I mean, they've completely squashed the Stark Tower story, I'm sure they would hold the story until the HoM checks it if they had some proof that a human terrorist was alive... 
And the caption is not "Spider-Man seen alive !". It's "Spidey and son spend quality time in Central Park". Do you really believe that the Pulse would use the familiar "Spidey" for a human terrorist ? 


Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
After all, these articles were written by the authors themselves 
<<<

Really? That's pretty cool. The only one I saw was by Ed "Scoop" Brubaker on the Captain America article. But all the others were credited to Betty Brant, Flash Tompson, Kat Ferrell, and Henry Pym.(who's Jacob Gunterson on the Hulk article?) Maybe if Peter David, Fabian Nicieza, etc are at the Chicago Comicon this year I'll try to get them to sign their various articles.(I wonder if the Spider-Man article was written by Mark Waid before he left, or if it was written by his replacement Tom Peyer?) 
Thanks! 
<<<

Peyer. Waid isn't in the SE's credits.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Dec 2005 12:22 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I do like the *order* of events Col_Fury has laid out, and I do like interpreting the "Secrets" entry to assume that Wolvie was battling conflicting memories during some of the FBs in his own series -- but yeah, maybe the time passing could be cinched up a bit. 

The thing about the HoM is that, unless there's some actual character overlap between miniseries, who CARES where we put it on a calendar? I mean, the only character who appeared in the Spidey or Hulk series AND somewhere else was Magneto, right? And did anyone from Mutopia X or Exiles appear anywhere else? 

JD, would making any of your suggested changes alter Magneto's -- or anyone else's -- before-and-after chronology, from the way Col_Fury has it? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Dec 2005 12:59 pm    
By JD

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
JD, would making any of your suggested changes alter Magneto's -- or anyone else's -- before-and-after chronology, from the way Col_Fury has it? 
<<<

Magneto appears in all four series (strongly in BP4 7 and FF:HOM, cameo at the end of H3 and SM:HOM). It also matters for Doom.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Dec 2005 01:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Right -- so, would your proposed changes alter Col_Fury's proposed before-and-afters for Magneto and Doom? Or Quicksilver? Or Nightcrawler (I seem to remember him appearing in BP4 #7 as well as Pulse and HoM-proper...)? And if so, what would they end up being? 

I, personally, would like to see Doom's appearance in BP4 #7 occur after his failed coup in FF:HOM, but I haven't read either series so I have no idea if he's honestly cowed by the end of FF:HOM. I'll have to reserve judgment until I get the trades in late Feb.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Dec 2005 01:42 pm   
By JD

Here is Col_Fury's proposed chronology for Magneto : 
HOM 1 
SM:HOM 5 
H3 84-BTS 
BP4 7 
FF:HOM 1 
FF:HOM 2 
FF:HOM 3 
H3 86 
IM:HOM 3 
HOM 4 
HOM 5 
HOM 6 
HOM 7 
HOM 8 

I suggest something more like this : 
HOM 1 
HOM 3-FB (shows Magneto's presence BTS of the last pages of HOM 1) 
H3 84-BTS 
FF:HOM 1 
BP4 7 
FF:HOM 2 
BP4 7 
FF:HOM 2 
FF:HOM 3 
BP4 7 
SM:HOM 5 
IM:HOM 3 
HOM 4 
H3 86 
HOM 5 
HOM 6 
HOM 7 
HOM 8 

My version for Quicksilver : 
HOM 1 
HOM 7-FB 
HOM 3-FB 
FF:HOM 1 
BP4 7 
FF:HOM 2 
FF:HOM 3 
BP4 7 
HOM 6 
HOM 7 

My version for Doom : 
FF:HOM 1 
FF:HOM 2 
BP4 7 
FF:HOM 2 
FF:HOM 3 
HOM 6 
HOM 7 

Polaris is unchanged : 
(BP4 9) 
FF:HOM 2 
FF:HOM 3 
HOM 5 
HOM 6 
HOM 7 
(DECIMATION) 

Nightcrawler is unchanged : 
UX 462 
BP4 7 
HOM 3 
PULSE 10 
HOM 5 
HOM 6 
HOM 7 
HOM 8

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Dec 2005 02:13 am    
By Col_Fury

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I haven't read either series so I have no idea if he's honestly cowed by the end of FF:HOM. 
<<<

In FF: HoM 3, after killing his wife and son, Magneto has Doom's mother give him a tongue lashing,(which of course, to Doom, is worse than his family being killed) and then Magneto says that Doom isn't worth killing.(or something to that effect) Magneto then sends Doom to his room.(Latveria) Effectively, Doom has been put in his place. 


JD wrote: 
>>>
H3 84-BTS 
FF:HOM 1 
BP4 7 
FF:HOM 2 
BP4 7 
FF:HOM 2 
FF:HOM 3 
BP4 7 
SM:HOM 5 
<<<

If you're going off of what I think you are, then here's some page/panel ranges for BP4 7 & FF: HoM 1-3: 

Magneto 
... 
FF: HoM 1 
BP4 7 pg4-pg6, pg12 
FF: HoM 2 pg6-pg7 
BP4 7 pg14 
FF: HoM 2 pg18-pg22 
FF: HoM 3 
BP4 7 
... 

The problem I'm seeing with putting S-M: HoM 5 so far back in Magento's chronology is you're not giving Peter much time to regrow a full head of hair. Why write it off as an art error when we don't need to? It can still work as intended. The same goes for the temporal references in H3. As Jeph mentioned, 


Quote: 
>>>
The thing about the HoM is that, unless there's some actual character overlap between miniseries, who CARES where we put it on a calendar? 
<<<

Which is a good point. To make S-M: HoM work as the writer intended, a lot of time has to pass between those last few pages of #5.(enough time to grow some hair, spend time with his family, and for rumors of his survival to circulate) To make H3 83-86 read as intended, there's three weeks that pass between issues 84 & 85. But in the larger picture, it's rendered irrelevant when Wanda re-set reality.(the whole thing only lasts one day in relation to the main Marvel Universe) So it doesn't really matter if HoM lasted 2 months or 2 weeks to the MU. But in regards to Spider-Man's, Hulk's, and Wolverine's experiences within the HoM,(and how the writers intended the books to be read) it does. Shortening the time lapsed from 2 months to 2 weeks throws all of those story elements out the window. 


JD wrote: 
>>>
I've never seen here any reason to put BP4 7 and FF:HOM in the past. It works perfectly to put them just before the events of the main miniseries, or even concurrently with the start of it : why bother with placing them so early in the past ? 
<<<

Because it works just as perfectly with BP4 7 preceding FF: HoM, a few weeks earlier? Don't forget, I helped argue your point with splitting and mixing BP4 7 & FF: HoM 1-3, so I'm not opposed to it. I just think it reads better this way.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Dec 2005 06:56 am    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
In FF: HoM 3, after killing his wife and son, Magneto has Doom's mother give him a tongue lashing,(which of course, to Doom, is worse than his family being killed) and then Magneto says that Doom isn't worth killing.(or something to that effect) Magneto then sends Doom to his room.(Latveria) Effectively, Doom has been put in his place. 
<<<

Which is why I don't see BP4 7 happening before FF:HOM. In the "meeting of kings" scene in BP4 7, he refuses to participate in BP and Storm's actions against Magneto. Either he's already got another plan (but we don't see him conceiving one until mid-FF:HOM 2) or he's already been cowed and just puts up a facade. 

(And yes, I agree with those panel ranges.) 


Quote: 
>>>
The problem I'm seeing with putting S-M: HoM 5 so far back in Magento's chronology is you're not giving Peter much time to regrow a full head of hair. 
<<<

Actually, I have no problem with placing SM:HOM 5 later, for exemple around the same time as H3 86. It just matters whether you want to put Spidey's message to Magneto before or after his awakening (I don't care either way, since SM:HOM is already a continuity mess). 
But didn't you place it far sooner than me on your chronology ? 


Quote: 
>>>
The same goes for the temporal references in H3. 
<<<

Actually, it doesn't matter for Magneto's chronology. I've put H3 84-BTS before any other appearances, and H3 86 at the latest possible slot (just before Polaris announces Doom's arrival in HOM 5, which is the prelude to the big battle in Genosha). This way, the timespan between the two can be as long as we want it to, be it my contracted "seven days" or the suggested "a few weeks". 
This is why I've been pushing forwards stories such as FF:HOM or BP4 7 just before the main miniseries' events : this way, the actual duration of the HoM world does not matter anymore for the characters' chronologies. Stories like H3 83-86 can last as long as they want without changing anything. 
Of course, it would matter for a calendar, but I've given up pointing out to this board the absurdity of a two-months span for the HoM world and am now focusing on the actual character chronologies (which is the point of the MCP, isn't it ?).

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Dec 2005 09:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Of course, it would matter for a calendar,  
<<<

From my perspective, not so much for a calendar as for an accurate chronological listing of events (rather than characters). As far as the mainstream MU calendar goes, the whole sequence of events will be collapsed into one day.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 03:39 pm    
By Chris McCarver

I agree... the House of M reality's as much of an alternate reality as AoA. IMHO, as far as the 616 chronology goes, I'm thinking 

HOM 1 
HOM 8. 

YMMV. 
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 04:57 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

AoA is an actual alternate world. We've been emphatically told, repeatedly, that the House of M is the real world transformed, and all manner of stories bear that out - EXILES, most notably. Plus characters moving around the world according to where they were in House of M, and Izzy's daughter staying dead. It's NOT simply a self-cancelling alternate timeline. Jumping straight from HOM 1 to HOM 8 is not a sustainable interpretation.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 05:13 pm    
By Chris McCarver

Sorry, misspoke. I'm not denying the nature of existence of the HOM reality or the ramifications of its existence, but from the perception of every character who didn't maintain knowledge of the HOM in HOM 8, HOM 2-7 never happened. No intention to devalue HOM as part of the overall chronology meant.  

That aside, on a different topic and forgive me if I missed this part of the discussion, how are the appearances that took place in the character's pasts (meaning on a calendar day prior to Wanda blinking in the HOM) being placed, such as the flashbacks showing Nick Fury training Logan in the HOM issues of W3?
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 05:50 pm    
By JD

Chris McCarver wrote: 
>>>
That aside, on a different topic and forgive me if I missed this part of the discussion, how are the appearances that took place in the character's pasts (meaning on a calendar day prior to Wanda blinking in the HOM) being placed, such as the flashbacks showing Nick Fury training Logan in the HOM issues of W3? 
<<<

Most of them are dismissed as false flashbacks, and not put into the chronology. This is the case for e.g. Fury training Logan, CA's history or the HoM origin of the FF. There is still debate here whether the "recent" flashbacks in WOLVERINE (the Mexico thing) should be included or dismissed.

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Power Pack minis - canon?
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
X-Men and Power Pack #1-4 
<<<

This series isn't canon, is it ? 
Lightspeed is far older in her "current time" Excelsior appearances (Runaways vol2, Marvel Team-Up), so it cannot be happening "now". On the other hand, both Wolverine and Beast had their "Reload" looks, so this cannot be happening in the distant past. 
I think this is clearly out of continuity.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 12:58 pm    
By Somebody

Plus, while I haven't read either the last Power Pack mini, the original series or this mini, I'm told by someone who has that their powers are wrong (not the who-has-which-power, the actual powers themselves), although I didn't ask for details.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 01:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

"Far older" how? Have they actually given an age for Julie in the pages of Runaways? As far as I know, no they haven't. 

I may not have mentioned this on these boards, but I believe that the various Power Pack minis are happening "as far back in the past as possible, given the other character clues". For example, the first mini, which features Doctor Doom, occurs right before "Unthinkable". And the second mini occurs RIGHT at the start of "ReLoad" -- which is almost a full year ago now, Marvel time. 

THEN, Julie decides to move to L.A. and appear in Runaways. I know, I know, it's inferrable that if she's living alone in L.A. and trying to get acting jobs, she must be much older now. But maybe she's just living with relatives, and trying to get teen acting jobs? It's not out of the bounds of plausibility that she's 14, staying with an aunt or uncle, and trying to get work. 

The other thing is -- which depiction of Julie is Marvel most likely to stick with? 13-ish-year-old member of Power Pack, or older teen living on her own in L.A.? Julie recently appeared with the rest of the Pack in New Thunderbolts #6 -- and although her age was hard to tell, it's looking like it's her status in *Runaways* that's the anomaly -- not her status in the two Power Pack minis. 

As for "their powers are wrong", the only mistake I see is Zero-G's ability to degravitize things *without* touching them. It's either an error, or a new ability. 

Hey, don't I owe Paul an analysis of the first mini? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 01:24 pm    
By JD

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It's not out of the bounds of plausibility that she's 14 
<<<

Yes it is. Even if you discount the fact that Julie looks well older than 14 in Runaways, you have to take into account the fact that the whole point of Excelsior is that they're former teen heroes. How hypocritical would it be for them to accept a 14-year-old in their ranks when they're trying to shut down the Runaways (average age : 16-17, Molly being 14-15) because they're too young ? 


Quote: 
>>>
it's looking like it's her status in *Runaways* that's the anomaly -- not her status in the two Power Pack minis. 
<<<

Except that Excelsior is apparently now popping up in Marvel Team Up.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 06:30 pm    
By Shmi

I know Franklin's age isn't always safe to go by, but I'm pretty sure he was 4 during the original Power Pack series. Julie was 10 then. She turned 11 back in Power Pack 45 (April 1989). That would put her 14-15 now. But it does involve Frankilin and his aging hasn't been exactly normal. 

When is the last time we got a solid clue to any of the Power childrens' ages? I seem to recall reading that we saw Alex learning to drive at one point. When was that? We know he is about two years older then Julie.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 07:31 pm    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
(average age : 16-17, Molly being 14-15) 
<<<

Molly was 11 in Rv1, so she's no older than 12 now. 

Oh, and pointing out that the previous Power Pack was developed & announced as a Marvel Age title, and the only reason it wasn't published as such was that the imprint became defunct: 


Quote: 
>>>
http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=26241 
So we approached the book as if it were Power Pack: The Animated Series, keeping the core of the characters and the original series in tact, but at the same time wiping the slate clean and starting from close to square one. Characters will remain true to their original counterparts, but if Power Pack happens to meet up with Thor in the new series, we'll be treating it as if they are meeting for the first time, and not referencing when they teamed up against Kurse in Thor #363. 
<<<

And looking at those art samples, Katie looks about 4. 

And on the NTB cameo - IIRC, it was on a monitor in the corner of a panel and had a glare effect applied to it to obscure it even more. I **very** much doubt anyone bothered to give Grummett any reference material for that one.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 08:28 pm    
By Col_Fury


>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It's not out of the bounds of plausibility that she's 14 
<<<

JD wrote: 
>>>
Yes it is. 
<<<

Well, not really. Some people mature faster than others. I run a movie store, and I see kids come in all the time that I think are 17 or 19, but find out later that they were actually 13 or 15. It's mind-boggling, I know, but it happens. It seems to happen with girls more than boys. Girls seem to... develop... faster. 

In other words: Julie may look more 'developed' in Runaways, but could still be 14 or 15. She just had a puberty-related growth spurt recently. 


JD wrote: 
>>>
Even if you discount the fact that Julie looks well older than 14 in Runaways, you have to take into account the fact that the whole point of Excelsior is that they're former teen heroes. How hypocritical would it be for them to accept a 14-year-old in their ranks when they're trying to shut down the Runaways (average age : 16-17, Molly being 14-15) because they're too young? 
<<<

Just because it's hypocritical doesn't mean it can't happen. Everyone's a hypocrite at some point. 

It's also possible that they didn't ask how old Julie is, because they think she's older than she is.(see my example above) She's been on the super hero scene with the Power Pack for a while now, so they may have just assumed.  

And to bring this back to topic: 
Hey Paul! Now that it's out, I can do Nightcrawler 12. Go ahead and give me Punisher: Silent Night, and while we're at it, I can do Thor: Blood Oath 1-6. Nightcrawler 12 may get done this week if we're lucky.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 08:02 am    
By jephyork
Director

I don't get the logic that it's hypocritical for Excelsior to allow Julie in if she's still an active hero. 

Point one, perhaps at the time Julie ISN'T an active hero. My suggested placement for both Pack minis is before this; leaving her *only* non-Excelsior hero appearance as part of TB2 #6. 

Point two, the very first thing Excelsior does is climb back into their hero suits for money. Sounds like they ARE hypocritical in that regard. 

Again -- we have no idea how old Julie is in Runaways. All we have is guesswork, and I don't think we can decide to throw miniseries out of conitnuity just because one of the characters MIGHT be older in another book. 

They're kid heroes in the Marvel Universe. Their age is going to fluctuate depending on who's writing/drawing them -- that's inevitable. (Kitty Pryde claimed to be sixteen in an issue of UXM in the #380s. Do we throw that out of continuity because it doesn't match up?) I say, as long as the Pack stay within their accepted age *range* -- as long as we don't see a 2-year-old Katie or a 30-year-old Alex -- I think we can chalk it up to "good enough". 

Julie's a teenage girl. That's good enough. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 08:16 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Julie can't possibly be 14 or 15 - she claims in RUNAWAYS #1 that she's moved to LA to pursue work as an actress. For these purposes, she's evidently old enough to move away from home and seek work.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Dec 2005 09:45 am    
By Jason Doty

As you know, I'm for usually including everything that can be possibly included in the project, but X-Men/Power Pack seems to be out of the bounds of continuity. 

Aside from the discrepencies of age. The fact that the Power parents don't seem to know their children are Power Pack seems wrong. 

Don't they know? I seem to recall something of this nature.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 12:02 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The knowledge was erased, I believe. 

And, Paul, didn't I address the "moving to L.A." thing already? She didn't say she moved there *alone* -- she could well be living with relatives, with her parents' blessing. Wouldn't be the first young teen to try to break into Hollywood. 

As for the first mini being originally planned to be published under the Marvel Age imprint -- so what? I thought we'd decided that it was only the books with "Marvel Age" in the TITLE -- "Marvel Age Hulk", "Marvel Age Spider-Man Team-Up" -- that were non-canon. "Jubilee" was published under the Marvel Age imprint, wasn't it? And it's canon -- "Power Pack v3" could conceivably be as well. 

Again, since TB2 shows Power Pack still together, and both Power Pack minis show Power Pack still together, I maintain my claim that it's Runaways (and now Marvel Team-Up) that's the odd man out -- not the other way around. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 12:04 pm    
By shandrakor

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I don't get the logic that it's hypocritical for Excelsior to allow Julie in if she's still an active hero. 
... 
Julie's a teenage girl. That's good enough. 
<<<

The point isn't that she's still an active hero, the point is that she's a teenager. The purpose of Excelsior is that it starts as a group of ex-teenage superheros in a support group because they all felt that going out hero-ing ruined their youths. 

They agree to get back into costume for the purposes of stopping the Runaways from heroing, because they're too young. 

If Julie were still in her mid-teens, it wouldn't make sense for them to allow her to costume up, since she's still one of the people they're trying to protect. It wouldn't make sense for her to complain about a lost youth that she's still in the middle of. It wouldn't make sense for her to have moved out to the west coast to become an actress.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 12:06 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

X-MEN/POWER PACK is unavoidably out of continuity, I think. We're off in Pseudo-Animated Universe #96B, from the looks of it, where an eternally-young Power Pack stuck in the status quo from their earliest issues are somehow able to interact with the contemporary incarnation of the X-Men. It's so wildly off the map that I can't imagine it was intended to be canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Dec 2005 12:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Huh? 

What exactly is non-current about the Pack's status quo in the X/PACK mini? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 12:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
They agree to get back into costume for the purposes of stopping the Runaways from heroing, because they're too young. 

I thought they agreed to get back into costume for the purposes of stopping the Runaways from heroing, because Rick Jones was going to give them a lot of money if they did it. 

Yes, Excelsior aims to give teenagers an alternative to heroing -- but that doesn't automatically preclude them from being teenagers themselves. Remember, when the group was founded, none of them had any intentions of being a hero ever again. "Ex-teen heroes" doesn't mean ex-heroes and ex-teens. It means ex-heroes, some of whom could still be teens. 

I see no reason why Excelsior, under its original remit as a support group for teen ex-heroes, would ban Julie from membership because of young age ... and I can't see why they'd get all weird about her when Rick Jones approached them with his offer of funding, asking them all to get into costume one last time. After all, she's got the most combat experience of anyone on the team! 

Assuming that Excelsior is still what it started out as -- a support group for teens who used to be heroes -- Julie's membership makes sense. Really, it's MTU3 #15 that's clouding the issue, presenting Excelsior as Yet Another Teen-Hero Super-Team -- which it isn't supposed to be. 

Could Julie have moved to L.A. at age 14? Sure, with her parents' blessing and unseen relatives to live with. 

Could Excelsior allow Julie, age 14, to be a member? As a support group, absolutely -- and for a one-time return to costumes, probably grudgingly, considering (a) that she's been a hero longer than any of the others, and (b) if they really cared about their vow to not be heroes, they wouldn't have accepted Rick's offer at all. 

Could Julie, age 14, be pining for her lost childhood? Again, considering that she's been a hero since she was about 8 -- I'd say she's lost a significant amount of her childhood, and at age 14 is battle-scarred and wise beyond her years, and misses being a regular kid like everyone else. 

I see no proof that Julie CAN'T be 14 in Runaways. I see inference, sure -- but that's about it. No proof, no hard evidence -- just soft, malleable inference. 


How come more people don't look for ways that things CAN be made to fit into continuity -- instead of holding fast to justifications that they CAN'T? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 01:12 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Assuming that Excelsior is still what it started out as -- a support group for teens who used to be heroes -- Julie's membership makes sense. Really, it's MTU3 #15 that's clouding the issue, presenting Excelsior as Yet Another Teen-Hero Super-Team -- which it isn't supposed to be.
<<<
 
Actually, as of the end of Runaways v2 #6, it is (well, Yet Another Super-Team anyway )

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Posted: 12 Dec 2005 02:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Just paged through the first Power Pack mini. No explicit mention of Julie's age, but at the start of #2 she and Alex show up together to pick up Katie and Jack from school -- implying that she and Alex both go to the same school, implying that she's in high school. And in #4, Julie hangs out with two friends, including a boy with his drivers' license. He must be 16-17, and she likely knows him from school ... again, implying that she's high-school-age. 

(By the way, Katie is said to be 8 in #1, and Jack is said to be 10 in X/Pack #2.) 

Now, this mini (if canon) would occur before Doom's big defeat in "Unthinkable" -- and that was well over a year ago, Marvel time -- possibly two years if you go by Paul B.'s calendar. 

The usual age of a freshman in high school is 14-15 ... meaning if Julie was 14-15 in this mini, she's likely 16-17 in "Runaways". 

Is THAT old enough for her to be down in L.A. with her parents' approval? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

If what is stated on this Newsarama thread is correct, then the Power Pack kids ages in the last, and this, Power Pack mini-series are: 

Alex:15 

Julie:13 

Jack:10 

Katie:8 

Check this link!
_________________
John Hartigan: 
"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 12 Dec 2005 08:56 pm    
By Jason Doty

How old were the Power kids at the end of the original series? 

How old was Alex when he joined the New Warriors? 

I would be willing to believe Lightspeed is around 17 in the Runaways book. She's supposedly the brain of the kids, maybe she graduated early. 

If we can push the Power Pack mini's as far back as possible and keep pushing Runaways as far in the future as we can it might work. In the X/PP books they are still clearly in high school.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 10:09 pm    
By Shmi

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
How old were the Power kids at the end of the original series? 
<<<


Julie was 11 at the end of the original series. Summer break started in 45 (when she turned 11) and they went back to school in 60. There were 62 issues. (I don't think there was another school year in there.) Assuming they had the same relative ages as at the begining of the series (it could be a little different depending on how birthdays fall): Alex was 13, Jack was 9, and Katie was 6.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 12:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

Did a little reading tonight. 

Somebody, you're quite right -- by the end of Runaways v2 #6, Excelsior is a full-fledged super-team, at Rick Jones' suggestion. Meaning they're even bigger hypocrites than we thought. 

Also, I read through Power Pack v2 (alternately known as "Power Pack: Peer Pressure", although that subtitle is found nowhere on either the covers or the indicia), and there are some things that both do and don't line up. 

Okay -- in Power Pack v2, it's the start of the school year. Katie is skipping two grades and entering fifth grade -- meaning she should be entering third. Jack and Julie are attending the same school, called a Junior High. Alex is learning to drive and attending high school. And Julie gets off a confusing line where someone asks her if she's in high school, and she says "no, junior high -- I'm just a freshman". I have NO idea what that means, except maybe they're in a school system where 9th graders still attend the junior high. 

So, from that we can assume: 

Katie - should be in 3rd grade but is in 5th 
Jack - likely 6th grade 
Julie - likely 9th grade 
Alex - 10th or 11th grade 

Now, in Power Pack v3, it's once again the start of the school year. Katie is explicitly 8 years old and entering third grade, and Jack is 10 and attending the same school as her. Julie is hanging around with kids who can drive, and Alex is old enough to be dating and babysitting his siblings. Not too much evidence to go on for the latter two, but we can get the following: 

Katie - age 8, 3rd grade 
Jack - age 10, likely 5th grade 
Julie - likely high school 
Alex - high school 

Looks like Katie and Jack slipped backwards a bit, and Julie and Alex are holding steady. Even if Katie was demoted back to the grade she should have been in, she should be entering 4th and Jack should be entering 7th. 

The trouble with Power Pack is, the central concept is "a family of kid heroes". You just CAN'T age them too far without losing their fundamental appeal. Katie Power always has to be in grade school, Jack can never hit puberty. Welcome to the sad Peter Pan existence of kids in the Marvel Universe. 

I don't think the fact that their ages slip back and forth from appearance to appearance is necessarily proof of non-canonicity. (I guess that's obvious, from the way I've been debating Julie's age in Runaways.) But let's see what other differences the two PP minis hold... 

In Power Pack v2, Alex gains the ability to levitate objects without touching them. He maintains this ability in v3, so I was wrong before about this being an error. This may be evidence that PP3 *is* canonical, as this isn't one of Alex's "baseline" abilities. If PP3 truly wiped the slate clean and started from day 1, Alex shouldn't have this ability. 

(Also note that in PP3, Alex maintains the name "Zero-G", adopted in PP2, rather than his original and horrid codename of "Gee".) 

In PP2, the Powers move to Seattle and Friday is returned to Smartship form (from being wrecked in New Warriors). In PP3, it's unclear where the Powers are living, and Friday is not mentioned. Not evidence either way. 

At the end of PP2, the Pack has adopted all-new uniforms, Mrs. Power is sick with a mysterious illness, and Jack quits the team. None of this carries over to PP3 -- in fact, Jack mocks Julie when she briefly quits in PP3 #4. Not evidence of non-canonicity, but it sure doesn't help. 

In PP2, Mr. Power is a professor. In PP3 he's an inventor, complete with lab, just like he was at the start of the original PP series. 

In PP2, the Power parents know about their kids' powers. (The knowledge was erased from their minds sometime in v1, but was restored.) In PP3, the parents once again know nothing. This is a fairly big hurdle. 

(If memory serves, the last time the Powers learned of their kids' abilities, it left them almost insane with stress, fearing for their kids' lives every second of the day. It's entirely possible that Mrs. Power's oh-so-mysterious ailment in PP2 was also stress-related, and the only way to cure her was to wipe their parents' memories. This is, of course, just a fan-wank solution -- my point, though, is that there's a million ways to tie up loose ends left by PP2 and explain status quo reboots at the beginning of PP3. The Power parents' good health and lack of memory COULD be a sign of non-canonicity -- or it could simply be an untold story.) 

What else about PP3? Oh yes... 

The Pack meets the FF in #3, and although there isn't an *explicit* mention of "wow, it's the FF, we've never met you before!" -- the dialogue does imply non-familiarity. Especially the Power parents being shocked that the FF would hang out at their campground -- aren't they friends with Reed and Sue? Again, a fairly big hurdle -- but again, there's no *explicit* mention that the Pack has never met the FF. 

I'd really like PP3 and X/PP to be canon -- but I admit there are a few biggish hurdles to clear. It all depends, I guess, on how much you're willing to overlook, rationalize off, or otherwise let slide. 

And an interesting tidbit about PP2 -- in it, Julie gains the ability to teleport! Without weighing in on how that affects her ability to appear in PP3 and X/PP, that can certainly explain how she's in L.A. in Runaways v2, and in NYC with the rest of the Pack in New Thunderbolts. And if she CAN teleport, she might simply be *lying* to Excelsior about "living" in L.A. Maybe she lives at home (Washington or NYC, wherever the Powers live right now), and teleports to L.A. for auditions and Excelsior meetings. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 07:27 am    
By Somebody

It's a drip-drip thing though - maybe (a) can be rationalised, and maybe (b) can be rationalised, and maybe (c) can be rationalised, but rationalising (a) AND (b) AND (c) all at the same time is a heckava stretch. 

Plus there's a comment from the writer that I linked to earlier on that he's not intending the book to be canon, but doing it as if it was Power Pack: The Animated Series. And other stuff, like Alex being "Zero-G" and not needing to touch stuff can't be taken as evidence it's not a "start from scratch" thing per se, since (1) As you yourself said, "Gee" is a horrid codename and won't fly these days and (2) it takes less exposition if he doesn't need to touch stuff. I don't consider them proof either way - they're certainly not evidence against, but think of it Teen Titans (animated) style.

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 07:36 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
rationalising (a) AND (b) AND (c) all at the same time is a heckava stretch. 
<<<

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. 


Quote: 
>>>
Plus there's a comment from the writer that I linked to earlier on that he's not intending the book to be canon, but doing it as if it was Power Pack: The Animated Series. 
<<<

He never specifically said "he intends it to be non-canon". I mean, it's implied, by OUR definitions of canon -- but all he really said is that he's deliberately not making reference to history in order not to confuse new readers. And that was the philosophy of almost all the books under the Jemas reign -- but that didn't necessarily make them non-canon either. 

To my mind, once the minis actively cross the line of having two characters "meet again for the first time", that's when I'll cave in. But as long as they keep having these vague interactions that could be read either way, I just consider it a Jemas-type, not-mentioning-history-but-still-canon book. "Power Pack, Animated Style". 

But yeah -- the writer comment, combined with the Power parents' memories, combined with the vaguely unfamiliar FF interaction ... drip, drip, drip... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 03:31 pm    
By Chris McCarver

Did a little Googling and found this on PP writer Marc Sumerak's message board. May answer a few questions (or raise new ones). 
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 03:54 pm    
By shandrakor

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
...And Julie gets off a confusing line where someone asks her if she's in high school, and she says "no, junior high -- I'm just a freshman". I have NO idea what that means, except maybe they're in a school system where 9th graders still attend the junior high. 
<<<

Yeah, that's almost definitely the meaning of it. And considering your point that they'd moved to Seattle for this series, it makes perfect sense. All the public schools in the Seattle area do grades K-6, 7-9, 10-12 for Elementary, Jr. High and High School, respectively.

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 05:02 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, Sumerak's position is that it's intentionally departing from continuity. Given that RUNAWAYS is plainly working on a completely different version of continuity (and one which is consistent with the original version, leaving aside aging rates), this seems a pretty clear case for the MCP's usual policy of disregarding retcon books.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 05:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yeah, it pretty much does. Ah well. It's a pretty well-done series, too. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 09:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So I'm presuming that no analysis is necessary for this series, eh?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 08:07 am    
By jephyork
Director

I guess not. Ah well, back to NC3 #5-6, you taskmaster you... 

-Jeph!

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Thread 17

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 06:42 pm    Post subject: Characters as Historical/Fictional Figure (Thing/Blackbeard)
By wolframbane

There are many Marvel characters who, through immortality or time travel, take on the identities of characters from history or fiction/myth (often itself historical in the Marvel Universe). Sometimes the Marvel characters simply assume the identity of an existing figure (like Apocalypse as Set or Maha Yogi as Merlin), and sometimes they are that character totally (like Thor as Siegfried or Siegmund). 

I would like to compile a list of Marvel characters who have had 'historical aliases'. This could possibly help in compiling their chronologies if the historical/mythical personas have appeared in other stories, which at the time may not necessarily have been considered an appearance by said character. Like for example, Thing went back in time in Fantastic Four #5, and adopted the identity of Blackbeard the pirate. Have there been any other appearances of Blackbeard in the MU, and were they possibly the Thing. 

The Elder God Set was dominant from ancient Earth, through the Hyborian Age and up until ancient Egypt. Then the Egyptian god Seth usurped much of his followers, and thus the 'Set' often seen after that was actually Seth. Also, Apocalypse had also used the identity of Set as well. Thus it is possible, the any ancient appearance of Set that was not explicitly the Elder God Set, Seth or Apocalypse, could have possibly been any of them. Also Apocalypse assumed the identities of the gods Sarau, Kali-ma and Huitzilopochtli. I believe he may have also been Charles Darwin (correct me if I am mistaken), so any appearance of Darwin could count for Apocalypse.

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 06:45 pm    
By Somebody

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Also Apocalypse assumed the identities of the gods Sarau, Kali-ma and Huitzilopochtli. I believe he may have also been Charles Darwin (correct me if I am mistaken), so any appearance of Darwin could count for Apocalypse. 
<<<

He wasn't Darwin - he's seen to muse in Further Adv of Cyke & Jean how Darwin's theories mirror his own.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 10:10 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Like for example, Thing went back in time in Fantastic Four #5, and adopted the identity of Blackbeard the pirate. Have there been any other appearances of Blackbeard in the MU, and were they possibly the Thing. 
<<<

I don't believe we've ever seen any more adventures of MU's Blackbeard (although his treasure has shown up a few times). 

There was, I recall, a Scarlet Witch story in M/CP where she inhabits the body of one of her ancestors, who happened to be a pirate around the time of Blackbeard. I don't believe that pirate has ever shown up since then, though. 

Side Note: A few years ago, I did come up with a great (IMHO) story that expands Blackbeard's reign of terror to something closer to historically accurate while still holding to FF #5.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 06:38 am    
By Enda80

Many of the Eternals have been mistaken for deities. Aside from that, there are not many post-Hyborian appearances to be redistributed.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 06:54 am    
By Enda80

Fandral was Robin Hood, as I noted elsewhere.

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 08:50 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins


Quote: 
>>>
I don't believe we've ever seen any more adventures of MU's Blackbeard (although his treasure has shown up a few times).  
<<<

He's shown up in "mystery" comics, if I remember corectly, but I understand those are only being counted here if they can be shown to have MU ties.

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Thread 18

Posted: 14 Dec 2005 08:53 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four #187
By scottandrewhutchins

Man-Thing appears in the fashback, and this flashback takes place AFTER the events in Iron Man Annual #3, though it could easily be mistaken as a flashback to the events in that issue, it isn't.

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Thread 19

Posted: 14 Dec 2005 10:56 pm    Post subject: Classic X-Men # 23
By captamr

CX 23, pg. 19, pn. 2 4 and pg. 20, pn. 1 6 is a FB affecting both Storm and Nightcrawlers listing: 

UX 117 
CX 23 
*CX 23/2  FB 
CX 23 

A case could be made that the rest of the X-Men are on the ship with Storm and thereby require a BTS for the FB as well as the second story ( Storm fires a lightning bolt from the ship in the second to last panel of the story). Or it could be considered like a mansion scene where we know the X-Men are home but everybody doesnt get a BTS. 

This is certainly a grey area that happens a lot  the Project may want to define boundaries one day.
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 01:22 am    
By Arthur
Director

captamr wrote: 

Quote: 
>>>
...Storm and Nightcrawlers listing: 

UX 117 
CX 23 
*CX 23/2  FB 
CX 23  
<<<

The last /2 is MIA. 

NIGHTCRAWLER 

UX 117 
CX 23 
*CX 23/2  FB 
CX 23/2 

STORM is currently listed as being in CX 23/2. As captamr pointed out above, she appears in the flashback but is only BTS for the rest (her lightning bolt). 


STORM 

UX 117 
CX 23 
**CX 23/2-FB 
*CX 23/2 should be changed CX 23/2-BTS 
UX 118

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 02:56 pm    
By captamr

Thanks Arthur, I hate to correct a mistake with another mistake.
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 20

Posted: 15 Dec 2005 02:58 pm    Post subject: Snakes Alive!
By captamr

Captain America # 341 has the infrequent setup of being divided into 3 separate stories. This requires a few extra notations to the Serpent Squad and others: 

USAGENT 
CA 339 
*CA 341/2 
PPTSS 137 

BATTLESTAR 
CA 339 
*CA 341/2 
CA 343 

BLACK RACER/ FER-DE-LANCE/ SIDEWINDER/ COPPERHEAD/ PUFF ADDER 
CA 338 
*CA 341/3 
CA 342 

BUSHMASTER/ ANACONDA/ ASP/ RATTLER 
CA 319 
*CA 341/3 
CA 342 

DIAMONDBACK/ COBRA 
CA 320 
*CA 341/3 
CA 342 

ROCK PYTHON 
*CA 341/3 
CA 342 
CA 343 

VIPER II 
NM 54 
*CA 341/3 
CA 342 

COACHWHIP 
*CA 341/3 (this was credited as /2) 
CA 342 

Black Mambas listing is correct (???)
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 21

Posted: 15 Dec 2005 05:27 pm    Post subject: Mantis/JLA
By Somebody

Just looking through the Avengers 2005 Handbook, and noticed the line in Mantis' entry, "Concieving the future Celestial Messiah, she left our universe, but even in other universes she found herself persued - on one alternate Earth she was aided by a league of justice-serving heroes against a mechanical construct..." referencing Justice League of America #142, where a character called "Willow" who referred to herself as "This One" helped the Justice League fight a villain called the Construct in an issue written by Steve Englehart, who Englehart has said was meant to be Mantis. 

So, should JLofA #142 be included in Mantis' chronology between GSA 4 and A:CQ 2-FB?

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2005 05:36 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The issue is modestly discussed here 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1543


watching: lou dobbs

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Thread 22

Posted: 14 Dec 2005 08:32 pm    Post subject: Howard the Duck Magazine #4
By scottandrewhutchins

Howard the Duck Magazine #4 is currently absent from Howard the Duck's chronology. MTU 96 must take place in-between the two stories of this rather than issue #5. Issue #4 has Howard take Hemlock Shoals to New York. He is just starting on his way back to Cleveland at the end of the story, and hasn't left the city. In MTU 96, he is in New York--the issue opens with him stuck in traffic, and in the second comics story in Mag #4, he is back in Ohio dealing with B.E.S.T., largely composed of fabricated loose ends by Mantlo in a story he regrets and Steve Gerber hates. Both stories in Howard Mag #5, he is in Cleveland, so a New York adventure probably would not be between these two. 

Steve Gerber's rejected story "Secret Crisis II" has some creedence in writing Bill Mantlo's Howard stories off as a dream, as Mr. Persecutor and Kong Lomerate, dream figures in Gerber's run, are real-life characters in Mantlo's run, but since Marvel never published the story (Jim Shooter rejected it as an insult to both him and Mantlo), it's presumably irrelvant here. 

I'm not sure if Howard Mag #4 should be bisected into 2 stories or if the other features should be counted in the numbering. Mark Gruenwald wrote an interview with Truman Capoultry recounting events in Howard's life that are somewhat establsihed and contradicted in issue #5.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 03:20 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

It serves me right for posting before I read the issue, but MTU 96 *is* in the correct spot between the 2 stories in #5. It's a different Cleveland-to-New York ride. 

Still, HTD Mag #4 still needs to be added

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 09:24 pm    Post subject: SUB-M 27-BTS
By Dhall

STINGRAY/DR. WALTER NEWELL 
TTA 95 
SUB-M 16 
SUB-M 19 
SUB-M 26 
**SUB-M 27-BTS 
SUB-M 31 
SUB-M 39 

DR. WALTER NEWELL appears behind the scenes, securing a passport for Namor, becuase Diane Arliss asks him to do so.

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 10:29 pm    Post subject: Sub-M 30-FB
By Dhall

Sub-Mariner 

SUB-M 28 
SUB-M 29 
**Sub-M 30-FB 
SUB-M 30 
FF 102 
X:HY 12 

Another flashback that occurs between issues.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 06:42 pm    Post subject: Early history referred to in OHOTMU
By wolframbane

I was wondering what is done for the chronology of characters when events are not covered in an issue, but rather referred in the OHOTMU. Like, for example, given Toad, OHOTMU gives certain aspects of his history not covered in any issue. It refers to his history, being abandoned at birth, later growing up in an orphanage where he was considered mentally handicapped. Do we use the OHOTMU references? 

If so, here is an updated version of Toad's early chronology. 

OHOTMU v2 13 (abandoned by parents) 
XMF 4 (Cain sees him at Black Womb) 
OHOTMU v2 13 (lives at orphange) 
XMF 3 (recruited into Brotherhood, possessed by future self) 
XMF 4 (recruited into Brotherhood, possessed by future self) 
{UX 4} (Brother vs X-Men, 1st appearance)

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Nov 2005 07:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Do we use the OHOTMU references? 
<<<

Not in the sense that you're asking here, no. 


watching: paula zahn

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Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If you mean "do we count narrative in the HANDBOOK as an appearance", then no - we only list actual scenes in comics. If we listed every event which has been mentioned in a canonical source then the project would have to include an entry every time a character said something like "When I was ten we went on holiday to Disneyworld." Or, worse yet, "Last week I went shopping." 

On the other hand, if you mean "do we accept the HANDBOOK as definitive on the order of events", then broadly speaking the answer is yes, because it's an officially endorsed Marvel source. A slightly more subtle answer would be that secondary sources like the HANDBOOK, MARVEL INDEX and so forth are strongly presumed to have the correct interpretation of a story, but can be disregarded where they're clearly in error - either by offering an explanation which is irreconcilable with the published stories, or where they have clearly misinterpreted the story and based their analysis on that misconception. 

The HANDBOOK exists in a sort of continuity limbo - strictly speaking it can reveal new information, and has done in the past in all its incarnations. But original HANDBOOK information, and the HANDBOOK's interpretation of stories, are not regarded as binding on later writers in the same way that the actual stories are. In other words, it can be retconned with impunity, as happened in the early nineties when an entire history for Jubilee was simply ignored. So really, any information or interpretation offered by the HANDBOOK and its ilk exists in a shadowy state of canonicity, only becoming absolutely cemented as canon when a published story adopts it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Dec 2005 10:02 am    
By Enda80

What about these recent Files books, such as Ulysses Bloodstone's files or the SHIELD files on the raft escapees? Technically they serve as primary sources, since they represent reproductiosn of actual files of Earth-616 characters.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2005 12:13 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I don't know that anyone has claimed that those were primary sources in the first place. In the second place, the transcript of a phone conversation or SHIELD's data files aren't really scenes, any more than someone saying, "I went shopping last week." 

So we can use them to help sort out continuity problems if they happen to shed more light on events, but they're treated like the HANDBOOKS on the whole.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2005 04:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I don't agree. I think that, unlike the "I went shopping last week" example, transcripts of, say, recordings of SHIELD interrogations, such as those featured in SECWAR, count as "scenes." They depict actual canonical conversations between characters as they actually occurred. To me, that constitutes a scene. Yes, the format is different -- it's all text and no pictures, but I think they should count in character chronologies. I've started to feature these types of scenes in the latest calendar. 

I have gone a step further with the calendar and included some preceding BTS events (no flashback graphics) referred to in later stories just to get a better handle on what characters are doing and when. These are closer to the "I went shopping" example. There's no decent way to cite these references, so I wouldn't expect them to show up in the MCP.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2005 06:10 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
They depict actual canonical conversations between characters as they actually occurred. 
<<<

Can you prove that Paul? All they show is that a transcript containing those words was prepared, and thus a conversation probably happened. We have no way of knowing if that transcript is 100% the conversation that occured, or if it was heavily edited. 

Reading, for example John Lennon's FBI file, and say a biography would be likely to be very different experiences. Can we say with no doubts, that every file shown, as written by a 616 character, is actually a 100% accurate representation, and therefore canonical? 

That to me is the differnce between "files" and "scenes." 

(That said, I think a "file" is a perfectly acceptable secondary source, the same as an Official Index, or Handbook, and as such may be accurate information, though subject to be shown as incorrect at some point in the future.) 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2005 08:13 pm    
By Jason Doty

These are presented as canon material, similar to the X-Men: The Wedding Album diary entries and therfor if characters are making commentary they should get a behind the scenes. In the Avengers Most Wanted Files the characters are discussing and making comments about the info presented. Secret War has actual transcripts of conversation and the Monster Files are presented in a fasion that lets the reader know who wrote it and in most cases around what time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2005 09:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Can you prove that Paul?  
<<<

Not any more than I can prove that any pictorial scene is real. Clearly, these files are presented by their real-life creators (Marvel writers and editors) as authentic scenes. They're merely using a unique method of storytelling to present them to us rather than going with the traditional sequences of pictorial panels. In many cases, these are "secret" or highly "classified" files to which the reader is made privvy; since they're not intended for consumption by the media or others in the MU, there isn't much of a reason to believe they're doctored with phony information.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Dec 2005 10:22 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I don't know that anyone has claimed that those were primary sources in the first place. In the second place, the transcript of a phone conversation or SHIELD's data files aren't really scenes, any more than someone saying, "I went shopping last week."  
<<<

I don't agree. I think that, unlike the "I went shopping last week" example, transcripts of, say, recordings of SHIELD interrogations, such as those featured in SECWAR, count as "scenes." They depict actual canonical conversations between characters as they actually occurred. To me, that constitutes a scene. Yes, the format is different -- it's all text and no pictures, but I think they should count in character chronologies. I've started to feature these types of scenes in the latest calendar. 
<<<

Let's clarify one bit first: you're saying that the transcripts are valid as primary sources, but something like SHIELD data files would not be, correct? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I have gone a step further with the calendar and included some preceding BTS events (no flashback graphics) referred to in later stories just to get a better handle on what characters are doing and when. These are closer to the "I went shopping" example. There's no decent way to cite these references, so I wouldn't expect them to show up in the MCP. 
<<<

Well, that was kind of what I was saying with regard to the transcripts. It's valid to use them to help place events chronologically, but they wouldn't qualify as actually scenes that warrant inclusion in the MCP. At best, wouldn't it only be BTS appearance since we don't actually see anyone in the trnascripts. Kind of like a phone conversation where we only hear someone's voice.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 08:23 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Let's clarify one bit first: you're saying that the transcripts are valid as primary sources, but something like SHIELD data files would not be, correct?  
<<<

Yes, that's right. Files, handbooks, etc. would be secondary sources in that they summarize information that has been gleaned from primary sources. Most Wanted Files is the most recent example. 

I believe transcripts of conversations are primary sources. They depict canonical conversations, albeit without word balloons, and actual "scenes," albeit without pictures. 


Quote: 
>>>
Well, that was kind of what I was saying with regard to the transcripts. It's valid to use them to help place events chronologically, but they wouldn't qualify as actually scenes that warrant inclusion in the MCP. At best, wouldn't it only be BTS appearance since we don't actually see anyone in the transcripts. Kind of like a phone conversation where we only hear someone's voice. 
<<<

Yes, I'd treat transcripted conversations like the phone conversation you note. Except...we treat those as actual, not BTS, appearances. Both the transcript text and the word balloon coming from the phone indicate actual conversation the given character is having at a given time. To me, there's no difference, aside from storytelling format. And I think that transcripts such as those in SECWAR can be cited in the MCP. For instance, there are two transcripts after the main story in SECWAR 5. We could cite the first as SECWAR 5/2 and the second as SECWAR 5/3. 

Thoughts?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 02:37 am    
By U-Man

In the House of M continuity threads the topic keeps coming up about the canonicity of the Pulse HoM special. 

How would a decision on that affect the canonicity of Files books? The only real difference is it's HoM reality rather than mainstream 616 reality. Another difference might be that the Pulse issue actually ostensibly appears in an actual book, but I haven't paid enough attention to know whether that also describes what you're talking about.

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 12:27 pm    Post subject: NOM2 miscellaneous
By RLG

1) The Undergrounder known as HORIZON first appeared in NOM2 3. Therefore: 

HORIZON/ 
**NOM2 3 
NOM2 9 

2) According to Bushwacker's entry in the recent Avengers: Most Wanted Files, BUCKY VI's real name is "JULIA WINTER." I don't know whether this is referenced elsewhere, so I'm not sure about Marvel's original source for it. If it stands, her MCP listing should be amended to: 

BUCKY VI/JULIA WINTER 



(BTW, Bushwacker's full name is given as "Carl Burbank" in his entry in that issue, but you probably already saw that.) 

- RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 01:29 pm    
By Somebody

RLG wrote: 
2) According to Bushwacker's entry in the recent Avengers: Most Wanted Files, BUCKY VI's real name is "JULIA WINTER." I don't know whether this is referenced elsewhere, so I'm not sure about Marvel's original source for it. If it stands, her MCP listing should be amended to: 

BUCKY VI/JULIA WINTER 

If that's Nomad's Bucky (I presume it is, but NOM2 didn't leap to mind immediately ), then that's from the current volume's Cap #7, and is the name her adoptive parents gave her.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 05:03 pm    Post subject: Apocalypse
By captamr

In XF 26 Apocalypse summons Famine home from the grips of Captain America. This probably needs a BTS for the Captain America teleportation: 

APOCALYPSE 

XF 25 ~ PP 35-BTS 
*CA 339 - BTS 
XF 26
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 07:20 pm    Post subject: MCBRIDE, CHASTITY
By Dhall

MCBRIDE, CHASTITY 
E:A 6-FB 
**E:A 5 
E:A 7 
**E:A 8-FB 
**E:A 8 


Note: Her name is spelled wrong in the MCP, It should be 
McBryde, Chastity

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 06:44 pm    Post subject: ANT-MAN/DR. HENRY J. PYM
By Dhall

ANT-MAN/DR. HENRY J. PYM 
A 227-FB 
TTA 44-FB ~ WCA2 33-FB 
M/:LG 12 
TOMB OF DARKNESS 22 
{TTA 27-FB} 
TTA 27 

Hi...I'm sure the answer to this one will be in some old handbook or another, but can someone tell me what the reason is for Hank to be listed in Tomb of Darkness 22? 

The story that has a character named 'Pym' in it, is a reprint of a story from Strange Tales 75, and usually the MCP doesn't list reprint issues. 

Secondly, in the original Strange Tales story, that same character is called 'Blake' so maybe Thor should get a listing. 

But seriously, there's nothing connecting this 'Pym' character to Hank Pym. 
(Yes he's working on a growth formula, so what?) 

By the way, the robot in the original Strange Tales story,was named "The Invincible Hulk.' 

These writers like to use the same names over and over..... 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 08:38 pm    Post subject: Spectacular Spider-Man #139
By captamr

In an issue of flashbacks; PPTSS 139, pg., pn. 4  6; is yet another showing 
Robbie at his desk before the beginning of the issue: 

ROBERTSON, JOE 

PPTSS 138 
*PPTSS 139 - FB 
PPTSS 139 
PPTSS 140 

The issue also has the first appearance of Tombstone requiring new brackets: 

TOMBSTONE/LONNIE THOMPSON LINCOLN 

*PPTSS 139  FB 
*{WOSM 36} 
PPTSS 137 
WOSM 38
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 20 Dec 2005 10:46 pm    Post subject: Daredevil 60,61,63,64-Flashbacks
By Dhall

Daredevil 60-FB 

Daredevil/Matt Murdock 
Nelson, Foggy 
Nelson, Debbie Harris 
Page, Karen 
Crime-wave/Hollis 

Debbie Harris breaks up with Foggy, after his assistant Hollis tells him that hed poll better if he wasnt engaged to an ex-con. 

Daredevil 61-FB 

Mr, Hyde 
Jester 

Hyde and Jester rent a carnival, as a plan to lure DD. 

Daredevil 63-FB 
Matt Murdock, Karen Page, Foggy Nelson 

Karen tells Matt that she is going to quit the firm, and leave town. 

Daredevil 64-FB 
Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Karen Page, Sally Weston 

Matt asks for time off, then follows Karen to L.A. 


Crime-wave/Hollis 

DD 57-BTS 
DD 58-BTS 
{DD 59} 
**DD 60-FB 
DD 60 

Nelson, Debbie Harris 
DD 56 
DD 58 
**DD 60-FB 
DD 60 
DD 108 


MISTER HYDE/CALVIN ZABO 
DD 32 
**DD 61-FB 
DD 61 
CA 151 


JESTER/JONATHAN POWERS 
DD 46 
DD 61 
**DD 61-FB 
DD 129-BTS 

Daredevil 
DD 59 
**DD 60-FB 
DD 60 
DD 61 
DD 62 
**DD 63-FB 
DD 63 
**DD 64-FB 
DD 64 
DD 65 

Karen, Page 
DD 59 
**DD 60-FB 
DD 61 
DD 62 
**DD 63-FB 
DD 63 
**DD 64-FB 
DD 64 
DD 65 

Nelson, Foggy 
DD 59 
**DD 60-FB 
DD 60 
DD 61 
DD 62 
**DD 63-FB 
DD 63 
**DD 64-FB 
DD 64 
DD 67 

Weston, Sally 
**DD 64-FB 
DD 64 
DD 65 
DD 66

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 20 Dec 2005 08:06 pm    Post subject: Uncanny X-men 120
By frogcoin

hi, i noticed that u listed professor X in UX 120, but he isnt there anywhere. 

the issue is based in the fight of the x-men with alpha flight, sorry the short post, but i guess theres nothing more to say... besides MCP is the best reference i have ever found and im glad to help with it 

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Dec 2005 10:04 pm    
By Dhall

Did you squint really hard during the mall scene? 

No just kidding, this is one of many mistakes in the Official X-Men Index, which is how (I am assuming) it crept into the index. 

I know that my opinion of the indicia, differs from that of others here, but I find them ridden with errors, and unreliable. 

Secondary sources at best.... 

Dave 

Good catch by the way...

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2005 06:19 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Secondary sources at best 
<<<

I don't think anyone's ever disputed that. The Indexes are secondary sources. They contain summaries and interpretations of primary stories and their chronological order; they are not themselves primary sources. The MCP has stood by them except in cases in which primary sources contradict them. That appears to be the case here, so if Xavier does not indeed appear in UX 120, it would appear a correction is in order.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2005 06:55 am  
By Dhall

Fair enough. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 21 Dec 2005 11:57 am    Post subject: Is "Supernaturals" in continuity?
By zeus

I have the 4th issue of a 4 issue limited series called Supernaturals (came out in 1998). Is this in continuity? Is it an alternate universe? 

The Black Cat is recent college grad and super hero Felicia Hardy 

Brother Voodoo is world famous record producer Jericho Drumm 

Ghost Rider is "extreme athlete" John Blaze 

Satana is high school senior and devout catholic Maria Ramos 

Gargoyle is an all-american teenager 

Werewolf-by-Night is a nineteen year old Jack Russel who revels in his curse. 

Obviously, not what I'm used to reading about these characters. What's the deal? There was reference to a Chaos! event. What's that about?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: No, it is not, and it has a logical flaw
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/supernat.htm 

"Curiously, Daniel's spell rid the world of all mutants and scientifically-created heroes. This should not have affected Thor or Hercules. On the other side of the coin, some of Jack 0'Lantern's allies, the Frankenstein Monster and the old Atomic Age creatures, were created by science. It's also worth a mention that no mention is made of "scientific" or "mystical" villains. "

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2005 01:18 pm    Post subject: an alternate earth then
By zeus

That's what I figured. I guess I'll count it as part of the MU multiverse, but NOT the 616. 

Thanks!

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 21 Dec 2005 07:53 pm    Post subject: Death
By scottandrewhutchins

Death also appeared in War Is Hell #9-12. Currently, Death is only credited with appearing in 13-15. Most of the characters who appear in that series die and don't return (and none have superpowers save Kowalski and death), save for Kowalski, so an issue analysis is rather pointless.

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 17 Jul 2005 06:51 pm    Post subject: Birthdates of characters
By wolframbane

One detail that I hope may be invaluable to fellow chronologists is determining character's birthdates. If the character has multiple birthdays during his appearances, that will definitely be a big help. 
below are a few that I have managed to find: 

Franklin Richards 
Birthdate: Late August 
Notes: Official Marvel Index of the Fantastic Four #5 establishes he was born in late August in FF Annual #6. 

Kitty Pryde (Shadowcat) 
Birthdate: April 
Notes: Age 13 and a half in Uncanny X-Men #129, which occurs in October as given in Official Marvel Index of the X-Men v1 #7. Month of April is half a year before October. 

Robert Drake (Iceman) 
Birthdate: Mid February 
Notes: Official Marvel Index of the X-Men v1 #2 states that his 18th birthday in Uncanny X-Men #32 occurred in February. 

Kurt Wagner (Nightcrawler) 
Birthdate: Autumn 
Notes: Has 21st birthday in Uncanny X-Men Annual #4, which occurs between Uncanny X-Men #138 (given as late October in Official Marvel Index of the X-Men v1 #7) and Uncanny X-Men #143 (which occurs on Christmas Eve or late December). 

James Howlett/Logan (Wolverine) 
Birthdate: Late May 
Notes: Date of late May from Official Marvel Index of the X-Men v1 #5 listing for Classic X-Men #10/2. Sabertooth attacks Logan in New York, apparently continuing his habit of stalking Logan on his birthday, as later expanded upon in Wolverine v2 #10 (thanks to Ronald Byrd's Wolverine Chronology for this info). 

Steven Rogers (Captain America) 
Birthdate: July 9 
Notes: Birthdate given as July 9, 1917 in Captain America: The Great Gold Steal. Given however that this is a 1968 prose novel and therefore may be considered non-canon. 

Are there any other examples of specific birthdates, months or seasons for any other Marvel characters?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jul 2005 09:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
One detail that I hope may be invaluable to fellow chronologists is determining character's birthdates.  
<<<

That's right, wolframbane. Because of that, I've been keeping track of references to birthdays...and anniversaries, too (wedding, team foundings, etc.). 

Of course, we'd consider ourselves lucky whenever multiple occurrences of a single annual event can actually be plotted onto the same calendar date. The Wasp's birthday, for example, is a challenge -- early January (A 42)? early March (M/TIO 60)? early June (A@ 8)? (January would be cool for Jan. And I think that Kitty Pryde is actually a Leo! But I digress...) But in cases in which chronologies allow us some leeway with calendar placement, we can try to assign consistent dates to birthdays and anniversaries. 

Here's a list of birthday references that I could compile quickly: 
Arcade -- UX 197 
Beast -- X:HY 22 
Black Widow I -- BW 2 
Captain America -- CA 245 
Black Tom Cassidy -- M/TU 150 
Roy Craig -- PP 38 
Electro II -- ASM 422-FB 
Gambit -- GAM3 19-FB 
Jean Grey -- XU 42/3 
Human Torch II -- SMTU 3 
Husk -- GENX 24-FB 
Iceman -- UX 32 
Invisible Woman -- FF 11 
Jolt -- TB 33-FB 
Kid Deadpool -- DP3 51 
Artie Maddicks -- XF 3-FB 
Madrox -- GSFF 4 
Mr. Fantastic -- FF 271 
Mr. Immortal -- GLA 1-FB 
Nightcrawler -- UX@ 4 
Dakota North -- M/S-H3 3/2 
Nova I -- NO2 1 
Nuklo -- V&SW 2 
May Parker -- M/TU 149, WOSM 2 
Persuasion -- AF 41 
Julie Power -- PP 45 
Red Skull -- A 324/2 
Annie Reid -- V:HUNTED 
Franklin Richards -- FF@ 6, FOUR 1 
Shadowcat -- SEX 1, XCAL 24 
Spider-Man I -- ASM2 57 
Spider-Woman I -- S-W 44 
George Stacy -- WTS 2 
Gwen Stacy -- ASM 87, PPTS 101 
Alistaire Stuart -- XCAL 30 
Sub-Mariner -- N@ 1/3 
Opal Tanaka -- XF 63 
Terminizer -- ASPOT 36 
Thing -- M/TIO 47 
Vitriol -- IM3 81-FB 
Warp Savant -- UX 394 
Wasp -- A 42, M/TU 60, A@ 8 
Mary Jane Watson-Parker -- PPTSS@ 9/3, SM/DO:OOR 1 
Wind Dancer -- NM2 1 
Wolverine -- CX 10/2, W2 10 
X-Cutioner -- GAM3 5 
Mary Zero -- AGENTX 3 

[/quote]
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jul 2005 12:40 pm    
By DCW3

E:A 1 gives Elektra's birthday as August 13. The flashback in DD 168 that shows the death of Elektra's father while she is in college also occurs on her birthday.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 10:23 am    
By wolframbane

Paul made a good point about tracking annual events, like wedding anniversaries and such. 

The events surrounding the first attacks by Gene Nation (Uncanny X-Men #325) occur on the anniversary of the Morlock Massacre (Uncanny X-Men #211-213). 

The events of Heroes Reborn: The Return take place exactly one year after Onslaught. 

Reed and Sue of the Fantastic Four were married in FF Annual #3, which occurred in July (according to Official Marvel Index to the X-Men v1 #1). In Marvels #2, it is additionally revealed that the first appearance of the Sentinels in Uncanny X-Men #14 occurs that same evening (also in July).

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 11:22 am  
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The events of Heroes Reborn: The Return take place exactly one year after Onslaught. 
<<<


Not "exactly" per se...In Captain America, vol. 3, Issue #1, upon Captain America ending up back in the regular Marvel Universe, he overhears that he and the other Avengers disappeared "last year"...that doesn't mean one year ago exactly. I also seem to recall references in Heroes Return issues stating that 'Onslaught' occured "months ago"... 

I came to the conclussion when researching this period that Heroes Return occurs 6 to 9 months after Onslaught...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 01:00 pm    
By wolframbane

According to several historical resources, Vlad Dracula was born n the months of November or December.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Aug 2005 04:29 pm    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
The events of Heroes Reborn: The Return take place exactly one year after Onslaught. 
<<<


Not "exactly" per se...In Captain America, vol. 3, Issue #1, upon Captain America ending up back in the regular Marvel Universe, he overhears that he and the other Avengers disappeared "last year"...that doesn't mean one year ago exactly. I also seem to recall references in Heroes Return issues stating that 'Onslaught' occured "months ago"... 

I came to the conclussion when researching this period that Heroes Return occurs 6 to 9 months after Onslaught... 
<<<

Heroes Reborn: The Return says (on the MU side) that it's a year to the day. 

Of course, Iron Man v2 #12 (and, by extension, the other HR #12s) is also meant to occur a year to the day, according to Doom. Maybe franklinverse time moved faster...

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2005 12:30 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well then, what we have is conflicting evidence... 

I'm finding myself agreeing more and more with Paul B.'s position on the "one year gap" in the pages of Daredevil, and to take such precise references with a grain of salt. References to "one year later" or "one year ago" happen all the time, often to match the real life publishing schedule, and not neccesarily taking into account the slower passage of time in the Marvel Universe.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2005 09:00 pm    
By U-Man

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Kitty Pryde (Shadowcat) 
Birthdate: April 
Notes: Age 13 and a half in Uncanny X-Men #129, which occurs in October as given in Official Marvel Index of the X-Men v1 #7. Month of April is half a year before October. 
<<<

That doesn't mean 13 1/2 years exactly. Her birthdate could be in April, or it could be as far back as November for all we know. Heck, it may well be May and whoever's giving the age is just rounding.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 03:48 pm    
By Ocean Doot

>>>
Heroes Reborn: The Return says (on the MU side) that it's a year to the day. 
..
<<<

I don't recall it ever saying that. Can you say when and where in the story this is stated? 

Jason

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 05:06 pm    
By wolframbane

i cannot quote the exact issue number, but the issue of Uncanny X-Men or X-Men which coincided with Heroes Return also stated a year to the day.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 07:13 pm    
By Somebody

Ocean Doot wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Heroes Reborn: The Return says (on the MU side) that it's a year to the day. 
.. 
<<<

I don't recall it ever saying that. Can you say when and where in the story this is stated? 

Jason 
<<<

HRTR1: 

Quote: 
>>>
Aunt Anna: "I'd just like to finish watching this report on CNN Peter" 
Peter Parker: "Oh, sure. What's it about?" 
AA: "Well, it's about all those poor heroes. It's the anniversary of their... their deaths, you know." 
<<<

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 05:18 am    
By RLG

Back to birthdays... 

For what it's worth, in M/CP 166/2, Spider-Woman II indicates that the Scarlet Witch's birthday is near. 

BTW, I remember an old girlfriend of mine that tried to convince me that we had an "anniversary" (that should be celebrated with MY money!!) the same day EVERY month. Perhaps Anna Watson is of the same mind?

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 08:16 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

RLG wrote: 
>>>
BTW, I remember an old girlfriend of mine that tried to convince me that we had an "anniversary" (that should be celebrated with MY money!!) the same day EVERY month. Perhaps Anna Watson is of the same mind? 
<<<

This is usually the philosophy of girls who don't expect the relationship to reach that first anniversary.  Perhaps Anna knows how things really work in the Marvel Universe. "So, the Fantastic Four's dead? Don't worry; they'll be back in a couple of months." 


Anna Watson wrote: 
>>>
Well, it's about all those poor heroes. It's the anniversary of their... their deaths, you know. 
<<<

wink wink nudge nudge 


watching: kill bill

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 02:39 pm    
By Ocean Doot

>>> 
HRTR1: 
>>>
Aunt Anna: "I'd just like to finish watching this report on CNN Peter" 
Peter Parker: "Oh, sure. What's it about?" 
AA: "Well, it's about all those poor heroes. It's the anniversary of their... their deaths, you know."
<<<
<<<

As others have said -- yeah, it is silly but -- that quote doesn't say "exactly a year." Could be six-month anniversary, could be three-month, could be whatever. 

Jason

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 03:19 pm    
By Somebody

http://www.answers.com/anniversary&r=67

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 04:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You're saying that exactly one year passes between Onslaught and Heroes Return? It's clearly a topical reference. 


watching: first daughter

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 05:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Kitty Pryde (Shadowcat) 
Birthdate: April 
Notes: Age 13 and a half in Uncanny X-Men #129, which occurs in October as given in Official Marvel Index of the X-Men v1 #7. Month of April is half a year before October. 
<<<

U-Man said: 
>>>
That doesn't mean 13 1/2 years exactly. Her birthdate could be in April, or it could be as far back as November for all we know. Heck, it may well be May and whoever's giving the age is just rounding. 
<<<


I'm with U-Man on this one. "13 1/2" is a rough approximation that may be a few months off. But I'll go one better and offer documentation... 

A better indication of Kitty's birthday would be SEX 1, which actually occured on her birthday. So when did that happen? 

Well, her last appearance before SEX 1 was in M/TU@ 6 (see the MCP and Official Index to X-Men). NM 15 and NM 23 refer to the events of M/TU@ 6 as having occurred "last summer." 

(Furthermore, Spidey's next appearance after M/TU@ 6 was M/TU 122-123. The latter issue has a specific reference to it being "summer.") 

Kitty's next appearance after SEX 1 was in FS 1 (again, see MCP and the Index). FS 1 occurs on the first day of a new school year. 

So, Kitty's birthday in SEX 1 occurs between a summer story and a beginning-of-school-year story. So Kitty's birthday is in the summer. I'm inclined to place in in late July, and that would make our dear Shadowcat a Leo! Oh the irony! 

My theory is that SEX 1 depicts Kitty's 15th birthday and that in UX 129 she was 13 and a couple of months.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 06:07 pm    
By Somebody

If you're going to write it off as topical, that's one thing. Just don't pretend that she could be talking about some other period of time in-context (and she appears to be quoting the aforementined news report in the piece).

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 06:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Just don't pretend that she could be talking about some other period of time in-context. 
<<<

Are you talking to me? I don't think I could make it any clearer that the post was a joke. That's what all the winks were for, after all. 


watching: city confidential

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 10:02 pm    
By Mikhail

There's the Zodiac story from West Coast Avengers which mentioned certain signs: Hawkeye is Sagitarius, Mockingbird is Gemini, Moon Knight is a Cancer, Shroud is a Pisces, etc. That gives a small window for their birth month and days.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2005 10:07 pm    
By Ocean Doot

>>>
http://www.answers.com/anniversary&r=67[/quote] 
<<<

Good call, Somebody. 

People do, in real life -- ya gotta admit -- refer to a "one month anniversary." However incorrect they are in doing so, I hear that all the time. 

But you're right, in this context, that is a stretch. 

I concede! 

Jason

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 10:07 am    
By Somebody

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Just don't pretend that she could be talking about some other period of time in-context. 
<<<

Are you talking to me? I don't think I could make it any clearer that the post was a joke. That's what all the winks were for, after all. 
<<<

Ummm... I don't see any smilies in any posts in reply to me here. 


Ocean Doot wrote: 
>>>
Good call, Somebody. 

But you're right, in this context, that is a stretch. 

I concede! 
<<<

Yay! :p

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2005 10:56 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Just don't pretend that she could be talking about some other period of time in-context. 
<<<

Are you talking to me? I don't think I could make it any clearer that the post was a joke. That's what all the winks were for, after all. 
<<<

Ummm... I don't see any smilies in any posts in reply to me here. 
<<<


Well, I guess you weren't talking to me, then.  

The post in question is here, and it was a reply to RLG, who had made a reply to you: 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
This is usually the philosophy of girls who don't expect the relationship to reach that first anniversary.  Perhaps Anna knows how things really work in the Marvel Universe. "So, the Fantastic Four's dead? Don't worry; they'll be back in a couple of months." 

Anna Watson wrote: 
Well, it's about all those poor heroes. It's the anniversary of their... their deaths, you know. 


wink wink nudge nudge  
<<<

In fairness to me, I didn't say "smilies," I said "winks." Three winks, one smilie. 

But, again, obviously, you weren't talking to me, so... 


watching: both sides

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Aug 2005 12:40 am    
By U-Man

Actually, I think Somebody was referring to: 

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
http://www.answers.com/anniversary&r=67 
<<<

You're saying that exactly one year passes between Onslaught and Heroes Return? It's clearly a topical reference. 


			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Aug 2005 08:31 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

U-Man wrote: 
>>>
Actually, I think Somebody was referring to: 

>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
http://www.answers.com/anniversary&r=67 
<<<

You're saying that exactly one year passes between Onslaught and Heroes Return? It's clearly a topical reference. 
<<< 


We're getting horribly off the subject here, but since until now there's been no opportunity to split the thread--and since I'm the Administrator--I'll play along. 

Somebody was chastising another writer (it sounded like it was me) for claiming both that it was a topical reference and at the same time that Anna meant "anniversary" as something other than a year. 

That's the question as to which post he was referring to, not the one you've quoted above. 


watching: don't tell mom the babysitter's dead

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 05:48 pm    
By wolframbane

The birthdates of certain historical characters, or for that matter fictional characters as well, can be used to determine birthdates. 

Hate Monger (clone of Adolph Hitler) 
Birthdate: April 20, 1889 (assuming clone 'is' Hitler) 

Axe of Violence (soul of Lizzie Borden) 
Birthdate: July 19, 1860 

Cyana (soul of Lucretia Borgia) 
Birthdate: April 18, 1480 

Zyklon (soul of Heinrich Himmler) 
Birthdate: October 7, 1900 

Coldsteel (soul of Josef Stalin) 
Birthdate: December 21, 1879 

Vlad Dracula (Count Dracula) 
Birthdate: November or December 1431 

Sherlock Holmes ('may' be Raven Darkholme/Mystique) 
Birthdate: January 6, 1854

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 05:55 pm    
By wolframbane

Does anyone know the issue of West Coast Avengers where the Zodiac signs of various Avengers were given? If so, would anyone have which signs which characters are? 

Mikhail mentioned the following: 
Hawkeye: Saggitarius 
Mockingbird: Gemini 
Moon Knight: Cancer 
Shroud: Pisces

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 06:36 pm    
By wolframbane

Heroes Reborn: The Return #1 states both that one year has passed and that it is the anniversary of Onslaught, strongly implying that it is the one year anniversary. 

Thing #10 states that the Fantastic Four were transported to Battleworld in Autumn during the Secret Wars, where they remained for several weeks. 

X-Men Index #1 states Reed and Sue Richards were married in July in FF An #3. Note this was also the same day that the Sentinels appeared in Uncanny X-men #14, according to Marvels #2. 

X-Men Index #4 also mentions Henry Pym and Janet Van Dyne were married in September in Avengers #60. 

Also according to the X-Men Index #3, the anniversary of Peter Parker becoming Spider-Man was in April. 

According to the X-Men Index #1, the anniversary of the formation of the X-Men was in late October.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 07:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So, is this just a thread for rattling off random temporal and calendar references now? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2005 07:44 pm    
By wolframbane

I started this thread to compile lists of birthdates for characters in helping to reference annual events to help in determining when events occur. Wedding anniversaries, anniversaries of other notable dates, holidays, etc. just kinda got added to the mix, which helps round out events. Hopefully these can help in placement of events.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Aug 2005 11:20 pm    
By wolframbane

According to UX 161, Charles Xavier first arrived in Israel (where he first encountered Magnus and Gabrielle) in 'Spring' and helped Gaby recover over a period of 'weeks'. It was during this time that he also encountered his time travelling son, Legion. In LegionQuest, it was also mentioned that Xavier was in Cairo, Egypt, where he forst met Ororo and the Shadow King, 'several weeks' before he came to Israel.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 03:30 pm
By scottandrewhutchins

John Kowalski's birthday is September 1. He dies on that date in 1939--Germany's invasion of Poland. It's not clear how old he is, though he looks 20s-30s. this is stated in WIH 9.

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 21 Dec 2005 10:08 pm    Post subject: IM 33-34, DD 71-73 Additions
By Dhall

Iron Man 

IM 32 
**IM 33-FB 
**IM 34-FB 
IM 33 
IM 34 


AGNEW, SPIRO T. 
**DD 70 
H2 147 
H2 152 

**Cronkite, Walter 
DD 70 

**Tribune/Buck Ralston 
DD 70 
DD 71 

Nelson, Foggy 
DD 70 
**DD 71-FB 
**DD 70 
DD 71 
IM 35 
DD 74 


Daredevil 
DD 70 
DD 71 
**DD 72-FB 
DD 72 
IM 35 
**DD 73-FB 
**IM 35 
DD 73 
IM 36 

TAGAK 
**DD 72-FB 
DD 72 
DEF 62 
DEF 63 
DEF 64 

**Quothar 
DD 72-FB 
DD 72 

Fury, Nick 
SS 16 
SS 17 
IM 33 - Remove, Nick is not in this one. The spymaster sets a trap by having one of his agents pose as Nick Fury. 
IM 35 
DD 73 
IM 36 

Madame Masque 
IM 24 
IM 35 
**DD 73-FB 
**IM 35 
DD 73 
IM 36 

Spymaster 
IM 34 
IM 35-FB 
IM 35 
**DD 73-FB 
**IM 35 
DD 73 
IM 36 



IM 33-FB: Iron Man makes a phony videotape to convince Jasper Sitwell that he is needed by Tony Stark for protection. 

IM 34-FB: Iron Man makes a phony videotape, to be used to make intruders think Iron Man is coming. 

DD 71-FB: continues a scene from DD 70, with Foggy, There is new dialogue. 
DD 72-FB: Matt Murdock meets Tagak 
DD 73-FB: On board the plane, Daredevil and Madame Masque meet the Spymaster, and attempt but fail to break free.

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 21 Dec 2005 08:10 pm    Post subject: Avengers 84-87 Additions
By Dhall

Black Knight V/Dane Whitman 
A 71 
**A 84-FB 
A 84 
A 85 
A 100 

Aragorn 
A 71-BTS 
**A 84-FB 
A 84 
A 85 
A 100 



GOLDEN ARCHER II/WYATT MCDONALD 
In A 85, was named Hawkeye, so that should probably be added to his name: 

GOLDEN ARCHER II/HAWKEYE II/WYATT MCDONALD 

**Brainchild II/Arnold Sutton 
A 86-FB 
A 86 

TChaka should be listed for his app. in Avengers 87-FB. And for FF 53-FB. I took the below placements from looking at the Black Panthers listing. 

T'CHAKA 
FFU 1/2-FB 
BP3 30-FB 
BP3 12-FB 
BP3 27-FB 
BP3 27-FB 
BP3 5-FB 
**FF 53-FB 
**A 87-FB 
**FF 53-FB

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2005 12:35 am    
By Col_Fury

Actually, the part of the FlashBack in Avengers 87 that concerns T'Chaka repeats the FlashBack in FF 53. Check out this for details and an updated chronology suggestion for T'Chaka,(including FF 53-FB) amongst a lot of other Black Panther related stuff.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2005 06:11 am    
By Dhall

Ok, but FF 53-FB isn't in the MCP either. And there is a part of A 87-FB which is new material. The part before Klaw shows up, which is why I listed it. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 24 Dec 2005 10:44 am    Post subject: Inovative Flashback Material
By Jason Doty

I was just wondering if anyone noticed the large amount of inovative ways Marvel has been producing flashbacks in their comics and if the MCP as come up with any kind of format to deal with these. I know recorded conversations would more than likely get a BTS, but I'm really interested in past events that appear before the eyes of a contemporary character in a storyline. Mainly TV, video, and visions. 

Newspaper and video footage from the New Warriors limited series. 

Taped conversations and recordings from Secret War. 

Corispondance in some of the Reference Books. 

And "ghostly visions" of past events that are poping up in X-Men: Deadly Genesis.

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Posted: 16 Dec 2005 09:58 pm    Post subject: New Avengers: Most Wanted Files
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So what does everyone think of the chronologies given in New Avengers: Most Wanted Files? 

I have a couple of observations to start: 

In the entries for Grey Gargoyle and Hydro-Man, Most Wanted establishes that FOES occurs after the Raft breakout in A4 1-6. This has always made sense to me and it's the way I have things plotted on the calendar. I know others have argued for placing FOES before A4 1, with Reed's reference to a Raft breakout being to a prior event. If Most Wanted is actually correct about this, then we can expect Fury to return to his SHIELD post following SECWAR 5 because he's in that position in FOES. (We continue to bank on A4 14-15 to get Fury reinstated or at least get Maria Hill ousted from the directorship. If the real Fury doesn't return, perhaps the Fury we see in FOES and other titles during this period is an LMD placed there for some reason having to do with the corruption plot line.) 

Getting back to Most Wanted...curiously, there is no mention of FOES at all in the entry for Molecule Man, even though he did appear in that limited series. 

Most Wanted's entry for Silver Samurai has to be wrong. It places ROGUE3 7-12 before A4 1. As noted in another thread, ROGUE3 7-12 must occur after M/TU3 7-13, given Sunfire's chronology. And given that there are New Avengers references in M/TU3 7-12, that arc must occur after A4 1-6. 

Do folks have any other placement clues, confirmations, and errors they've gleaned from Most Wanted?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2005 10:20 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Most Wanted's entry for Silver Samurai has to be wrong. It places ROGUE3 7-12 before A4 1. As noted in another thread, ROGUE3 7-12 must occur after M/TU3 7-13, given Sunfire's chronology. And given that there are New Avengers references in M/TU3 7-12, that arc must occur after A4 1-6.  
<<<

Even though it listed the Raft breakout after the events of Rogue 7-12, I read it as "Oh, and he was in the Raft, too', tagged on to the end of the entry. Most of the other entries end with the Raft breakout, so I think this was either an oversight, or an attempt to keep everything more or less uniform. 

But you're right, A4 1-13 must precede Rogue 7-12. 

Am I correct in assuming that everyone listed in this thing, if not seen on panel in A4 1-6, will be given BTS listings? 

And some others: 
Armadillo's & Tiger Shark's entries puts the recent New Warriors mini after A4 1-6. 

The Blood Brothers' entry puts the recent Drax mini after A4 1-6. 

Bushwacker's entry puts the recent Daredevil vs Punisher mini after A4 1-6. 

Sauron's entry seems to suggest that the recent Weapon X mini starts after A4 1-6.(the majority of that mini, of course, is in an alternate future) 

Vermin's entry puts Nightcrawler 7-11 at least after A4 1-6. 

Purple Man's entry is confusing, as it seems to suggest that all of New Thunderbolts occurs after A4 1-6. Specifically: 

Quote: 
>>>
...Jones, but she resisted hin using a psychic defense trigger supplied by Pheonix and beat Killgrave senseless. Sent back to the Raft, Killgrave tried to escape during Electro's mass breakout, but his powers were inhibited by drugs and Jones' new boyfriend Luke Cage pummeled him into submission. Somehow escaping yet again, the Purple Man made the Thunderbolts his pet project, manipulating the reformed ex-villains in various damaging ways and grooming a new Swordsman to infiltrate the group and betray them; but when Killgrave took over all of Manhattan, it was the Thunderbolts who defeated him and sent him back to prison, his mind shattered by a taste of cosmic awareness... 
<<<

But that doesn't line up with Wolverine appearing in New T-Bolts(in an EotS tie-in)while Killgrave was grooming the new Swordsman, which would put those issue before A4 1-6. Even more odd, is that Necieza explained that Zemo was teleporting Killgrave inand out of prison, in between issues of New T-Bolts, cleaning up that mess for us, but the only reference to that here is 'Somehow escaping yet again' line.(of course, the people who put this entry together wouldn't know about Zemo, but you'd think that they'd get the order of events right...) 

Another head-scratcher is Crossbones' entry. Specifically: 
Quote: 
>>>
...Crossbones was imprisoned in the Raft until Electro's break-in freed him. The Skull promptly rehired him, and he was aiding in repowering a Cosmic Cube when Aleksander Lukin's Winter Soldier assassinated the Red Skull and stole the Cube. Lukin anonymously accused Captain America for the Skull's death, but Crossbones soon realized the truth and pointed Captain America towards Lukin. 
<<<

But wait, I thought that the 'Winter Soldier' arc was happening before the New Avengers formed...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 09:44 am    
By BobMM

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Purple Man's entry is confusing, as it seems to suggest that all of New Thunderbolts occurs after A4 1-6...But that doesn't line up with Wolverine appearing in New T-Bolts(in an EotS tie-in)while Killgrave was grooming the new Swordsman, which would put those issue before A4 1-6. Even more odd, is that Necieza explained that Zemo was teleporting Killgrave inand out of prison, in between issues of New T-Bolts, cleaning up that mess for us... 
<<<

Nicieza's intent is made pretty clear by the narration in New Thunderbolts #12: Purple Man says, "[Zemo] made me go back to prison anytime I annoyed him (like when he found out how I made my Swordsman express his gratitude)." This is most likely a reference to the "boot-licking" incident at the end of New Thunderbolts #4, the Enemy of the State tie-in. 

Nicieza's text therefore strongly implies that the New Avengers break-out on the Raft occurs between New Thunderbolts #4 and #5.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 11:07 am    
By Somebody

BobMM wrote: 
>>>
Nicieza's intent is made pretty clear by the narration in New Thunderbolts #12: Purple Man says, "[Zemo] made me go back to prison anytime I annoyed him (like when he found out how I made my Swordsman express his gratitude)." This is most likely a reference to the "boot-licking" incident at the end of New Thunderbolts #4, the Enemy of the State tie-in. 

Nicieza's text therefore strongly implies that the New Avengers break-out on the Raft occurs between New Thunderbolts #4 and #5. 
<<<

That presumes that that was the only incident - and, more to the point, that places most of Enemy of the State and Agent of SHIELD between NTB 4 & 5 when in factual act, NTB 4 ends on a cliffhanger which is directly picked up on in NTB 5 page 1! 

Between 6 & 8 surely...

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 12:12 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
But wait, I thought that the 'Winter Soldier' arc was happening before the New Avengers formed... 
<<<

I was just coming onto the forum to comment on this, but I see you've beat me to it. 

I, too, was under the impression that the Winter Soldier story arc would be placed before A4 1. In CA5 1, we see an old Daily Bugle headline announcing the disbanding of the Avengers, so I figured this story would occur not long after A:FINALE. But, if CA5 1 follows A4 1-6, then I guess that paper would have been kicking around for several months! 

Also in CA5 1, Sharon Carter checks in on Cap, who notes that its just been a rough couple of months. I assumed this was a reference to Disassembled and A:FINALE, but if CA5 1 follows A4 1-6, I suppose we'd need to find other reasons for it to be a rough couple of months -- perhaps the Raft breakout and, just before then, the finale of SECWAR would qualify. 

And if the Winter Soldier story arc indeed follows the formation of the New Avengers, then we have one more story arc in which Fury would need to appear as head of SHIELD after his ouster in SECWAR 5. 

A lot hinges on Marvel's getting Fury's chronology straight here. He really is going to have to resume his post as SHIELD director toute-de-suite.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 08:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
And given that there are New Avengers references in M/TU3 7-12, that arc must occur after A4 1-6.  
<<<

I should add that the Constrictor's entry in Most Wanted confirms placement of M/TU3 7-13 after A4 1-6.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 10:52 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
A lot hinges on Marvel's getting Fury's chronology straight here. He really is going to have to resume his post as SHIELD director toute-de-suite. 
<<<

So are we still in "wait and see" mode for the next update of the Calender? It's best to wait for the next few issues of New Avengers, isn't it?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 01:10 am    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
Quote: 
So are we still in "wait and see" mode for the next update of the Calender? It's best to wait for the next few issues of New Avengers, isn't it? 

A4 16 is post-HoM, and it ships in February, A4 15 ships in January, & Bendis' last issue of Daredevil also ships in January. I think that for the most part everything else is more or less caught up to HoM.(Since the 'Most Wanted Files' puts the current Cap issues after the formation of the New Avengers, I guess that could mean that Cap 11 is post-HoM) I guess it'd be best to wait for those last two stragglers to catch up... which is next month!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 12:58 pm  
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
(Since the 'Most Wanted Files' puts the current Cap issues after the formation of the New Avengers, I guess that could mean that Cap 11 is post-HoM) 
<<<

Emmm... isn't Cap still grieving for Hawkeye in Cap #1, whereas his big smile at the end of HoM says he's convinced Hawk's back.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 05:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Emmm... isn't Cap still grieving for Hawkeye in Cap #1 
<<<

That's in a flashback (9p5) that can easily occur months before CA5 1.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 05:48 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I guess it'd be best to wait for those last two stragglers to catch up... which is next month! 
<<<

I was planning to submit the latest calendar to Russ by New Year's. But...it may be prudent to wait another few weeks. Ugh.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2005 10:16 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Just remember: It's all Bendis' fault! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 06:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, on the bright side, it gives everyone a better chance to get those analyses submitted and included. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Dec 2005 12:01 am    
By Col_Fury

If we're going to give characters listings for contributing to these files, I would think that this would 'occur' at least after the Avengers go public. Also... 

Quote: 
>>>
Vermin's entry puts Nightcrawler 7-11 at least after A4 1-6.  
<<<

If that Nightcrawler arc ends up being post-HoM, then this 'Files' book would have to be post-HoM also, right? Otherwise, how would it be in Vermin's entry if it didn't happen yet?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Dec 2005 06:35 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
If that Nightcrawler arc ends up being post-HoM, then this 'Files' book would have to be post-HoM also, right? 
<<<

If the entries in Most Wanted Files are indeed the files to which Gail Runciter refers in her e-mail to Jessica Drew on the inside front cover -- which some folks may consider a canonical "event" (Runciter's writing of the e-mail) -- then, yes, that e-mail would have to have been sent post-HOM if NC3 7-11 occur post-HOM. I've already reached that conclusion, based on Razorfist's entry and the amount of time that's supposed to elapse between the Raft breakout and TOXIN 1-6. TOXIN 3 (1-11) takes place six months, two weeks, three days, five hours after the breakout. In my estimation, that places TOXIN 1-6 a few months after HOM. Then Runciter's e-mail would occur after that. Of course, the flaw here is that things are likely to happen with the characters depicted in Most Wanted Files in as-yet unpublished comics that will occur before that point in time, and these things aren't in the files. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2005 12:57 am    
By Col_Fury

This week's Captain America 13 kind of supports the 'Most Wanted' placement of this series after the Raft breakout, and therefore after Fury comes back to SHIELD.(because Fury wasn't around during the breakout) Sharon Carter asks Steve why he didn't inform SHIELD of what he's doing, to which he says he didn't want Fury to get caught up in red tape *again.* That could be a reference to any time Nick got caught up in red tape, though... 

In an sort-of related note, Falcon appears here with his energy wings, and he makes a comment that his life is complicated. Are we still under the assumption that CA&F 13-14 happen after HoM? Or can we write the return of the Falcon after his faked death off as un unpublished story? I mean, it seems as though Marvel has completely forgotten that he 'died' in those issues... 

It makes me wonder how 2006's A-Z handbooks will handle this one.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2005 05:24 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Falcon's disappearance was a planned set up for a Christopher Priest FALCON series which, last I heard, was dead in the water. I think it's fairly safe to assume they're not going near that story again, and his return must have taken place off panel.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Dec 2005 05:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Are we still under the assumption that CA&F 13-14 happen after HoM? Or can we write the return of the Falcon after his faked death off as un unpublished story?  
<<<

I have the following chronology for Falcon following CA&F 14: 

The unpublished FALCON series (he's back from the "dead") 
A:FINALE (Sam says he's going to quit superheroing) 
W3 23 (I guess he changed his mind) 
W3 25 (Sam's clean-shaven for the last time) 
GLA 2-FB (Sam's got stubble around his mouth and chin) 
CA5 12 (Sam's got a mustache and goatee) 
CA5 13
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Dec 2005 07:49 pm    
By Somebody

What about HoM #1? As I recall, he was there, albeit with the set of wings that blew up pre-Disassembled

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Dec 2005 08:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
What about HoM #1?  
<<<

Good catch. Based on the "July" references in GLA and my placement of HOM in September (after the start of a new school year at the Xavier Institute), I have Sam in HOM 1 between GLA 2-FB and CA5 12. But dang, he's clean-shaven in HOM 1. Well, maybe his goatee developed in fits and starts. After Wolverine's and Daredevil's histories with goatees that come and go, why not? 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Dec 2005 01:47 am    
By John Simons

What kind of a time frame are we talking about, here? 'Cause I can grow a goatee from scratch in about a week, 10 days tops. I realize not everyone's hair may grow that quickly, but it does for some. Maybe Sam and Matt are just very indecisive about their "look", so they shave and regrow a few times as they decide whether they like it.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Dec 2005 11:24 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
What kind of a time frame are we talking about, here?  
<<<

Plenty of time to grow, shave, and re-grow facial hair. No big problem there. But to think that Sam, Matt, Logan, and all the goatee-growers of the MU are so wishy-washy... 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 25 Dec 2005 08:33 pm    Post subject: Page, Karen
By Dhall

Page, Karen 
DD 70 
DD 75 ?Remove< Karen is not in this issue. 
DD 77 
DD 78

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 25 Dec 2005 07:38 pm    Post subject: Sub-M 32 Additions
By Dhall

**KARTHON The Quester (new listing) 
SUB-M 9 
SUB-M 10 
SUB-M 12 
SUB-M 13 
SUB-M 32 
SUB-M 36 
SUB-M 37 
SUB-M 38 

Morris, Rhonda (new listing) 
SUB-M 32-FB 
SUB-M 32 
SUB-M 36 


**Llyron (new listing) 
SUB-M 32-FB 

LLYRON (should be listed as Llyron II) 
N 54 
N 55 
N 56 
N 57 
N 61 
N 62 
AR 1 
FF 402 
AR 2 
FFU 11/2 

LLYRA/LLYRA MORRIS 
NM@ 5/3-FB 
XF@ 4/4-FB 
**SUB-M 32-FB 
{SUB-M 32} 
SUB-M 36 
SUB-M 37 

SUB-M 32-FB: Llyras origin, she is the daughter of a Lemurian male, Llyron, and a human mother. 



Note: Edited, due to below posts.

Last edited by Dhall on 27 Dec 2005 09:07 pm; edited 5 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Dec 2005 08:12 pm    
By Somebody

The Llyron you tried to add the SM32FB to is Llyra's SON.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Dec 2005 08:36 pm    
By Dhall

Then he should be listed as Llyron II, and we should have a LLyron credited for Sub-M 32-FB as his only apparance. 

Thanks for the information. I've never read those Namor's, so.... 

I will edit my original post accordingly. 


Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Posted: 26 Dec 2005 11:46 am    Post subject: IKTHON
By Dhall

IKTHON 
SUB-M 7 
SUB-M 9 
SUB-M 15 
SUB-M 16 
SUB-M 17 
SUB-M 21 
SUB-M 22 
SUB-M 31 
SUB-M 32 
**SUB-M 34-BTS 
SUB-M 35 
SUB-M 37 

Ikthon appears behind the scenes in sub-m 34, as it is he who has warned Namor about the surface-dwellers weather machine.

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 26 Dec 2005 09:12 pm    Post subject: A 88/H2 140 corrections
By Dhall

Captain America 
CA 137 
CA 138 
**A 88-FB 
A 88 
H2 140 <- Remove, he only appears in the recap of A 88 
IM 39 

Redwing 
CA 138 
**A 88-FB 
A 88 
H2 140<- Remove, he only appears in the recap of A 88 
IM 39 


Iron Man 
IM 39 
**A 88-FB 
A 88 
H2 140<- Remove, he only appears in the recap of A 88 
IM 39 
IM 40 

Hawkeye 
SUB-M 35 
AA2 7/2 
**A 88-FB 
A 88 
H2 140<- Remove, he only appears in the recap of A 88 
IM 39 
A 90 

Thor 
A 87 
SUB-M 35 
**A 88-FB 
A 88 
H2 140<- Remove, he only appears in the recap of A 88 
IM 39 

Quicksilver 
A 87 
SUB-M 35 
**A 88-FB 
A 88 
A 89-FB 
A 89 
A 90 

Scarlet Witch 
SUB-M 35 
**A 88-FB 
A 88 
A 89-FB 
A 89 
A 90

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Posted: 26 Dec 2005 09:15 pm    Post subject: AA2 1 & 2/2 additions
By Dhall

AA2 1 

Invisible Woman 
FF 101 
X:HY 9 
**AA2 1-BTS 
AA2 2 
FF 102 
X:HY 20 
FF 103 
FF 104 

Sue is BTS in AA2 1, due to the following line from Reed: "Ben will regain his Grimm charm when Sue serves the snacks." This puts her in the building while the rest of the FF are watching the film of the Inhumans. 

**Scarola, Anthony (new listing) 
AA2 2/2 
AA2 3/2 
AA2 4/2

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Posted: 25 Dec 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: H2 133, 134 corrections
By Dhall

Golem II exists only as a legend told by one of the characters in H2 134. There is no actual Golem that appears in H2 134, so this listing should be deleted. 

GOLEM II 
H2 134 

DRAXON 
H2 133-FB <- Remove, there is no such flashback, in this issue. 
{H2 132} <-Remove, character does not appear in this issue. 
**H2 134-FB 
H2 133 
**H2 134

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 10:00 am    
By Enda80

GOLEM II 
H2 134 

Actually, it turned out that this flashback was true, since the Golem of Prague from this story later appeared in Strange Tales. 

For those who are wondering, a group of people see the Hulk and mistake him for the Golem of Prague, and we get a brief fb to the story of that Golem of Prague. 

There is a precdent for this. Yes, the characters mistook the Hulk for the Golem, but the flashback still stands as a valid entry. Remember, Professor X thought that the android from X-Men I#40 was the Frankenstein's Monster, and told a brief fb to the Monster's adventure in the North Pole. Though Professor X was wrong, that brief fb is still in the Monster's chronology. 

I still hold that Supernatural Thrillers#3 fb to Fafnir's battle with Siegfried should be incorporated into Thor and Fafnir's chronology, even though James Allison was wrong in his conclusions that the story was only a "racial memory". 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1282&highlight=fafnir 


GOLEM II 
**H2 134-FB 
ST 174 
ST 176 
ST 177 
M/TIO 11

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Posted: 26 Dec 2005 10:46 pm    Post subject: CA Additions
By Dhall

**Stone Face (new listing) 
CA 134 
CA 137 
CA 138 


**Casper, Jody (new listing) 
CA 134 
CA 138 
CA 143 
CA 154 

By the way, 
CA 138 leads directly into ca 139, but the MCP has Cap in A 88, and IM 39 listed between 138 and 139. Is it possible for those issues to fit in after the next cap arc? 
Or if not, can A 88, and IM 39 occur between pages of CA 139? 



Ca 139-FB 

Captain America 
Sgt. Duffy 
Sometime in World War II, Sgt. Duffy chews out Steve Rogers. 
Later, Sgt. Duffy almost finds out Steves identity as Cap. 

Not sure where this flashback goes in chronology.

Last edited by Dhall on 14 Jan 2006 05:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2005 11:28 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Stone Face is already listed in the MCP as Stone-Face, but without the earlier appearances that you've listed for him. To judge by his profile at the Appendix site, he used a different variation on the name every time he appeared (Stone Face, Stone-Face, or Stoneface). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 11:29 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
CA 138 leads directly into ca 139, but the MCP has Cap in A 88, and IM 39 listed between 138 and 139. Is it possible for those issues to fit in after the next cap arc? 
Or if not, can A 88, and IM 39 occur between pages of CA 139?  
<<<

Hmm. Both volumes of the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers insert A 88 and IM 39 between CA 138 and 139, but you're right, Dave, CA 138 does lead directly into CA 139. At the end of CA 138, Cap answers an urgent summons from the police commissioner and at the beginning of CA 139, he's in the commissioner's office. The narrative makes a big deal out of bridging CA 138 and 139, so Cap shouldn't be making other appearances between those issues. You might argue that he had to answer another urgent summons while en route to the commissioner's office, but that's not the way the story in A 88 is set up. 

I'd place A 88 after CA 143.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 05:41 pm    
By Dhall

Then per Sean's post it should be: 

STONE-FACE 
**CA 134 
**CA 137 
**CA 138 
CA 171 
M/TU 114 

Quote: 
>>>
I'd place A 88 after CA 143. 
<<<

Paul, I agree with you. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 47

Posted: 28 Dec 2005 06:12 am    Post subject: A 90 Additions
By Dhall

BOGGS, MORDECAI P. 
CM 18 
CM 20 
A 89 (This should be A 89-FB) 
CM 22 
CM 30 


Hawkeye 
IM 39 
** A 90-FB 
A 90 
A 91 
AA2 8 
A 92 

A 90-FB: Hawkeye appears in a pre-recorded message for the Avengers 

Wasp 
A 83 
**A 90-FB 
A 90 
A 91 
A 93-BTS 
A 100 

Yellowjacket 
A 75 
**A 90-FB 
A 90 
A 91 
A 93 

A90-FB: Wasp and Yellowjacket check out a strange island in the Artic Circle.

			*	*	*

Thread 48

Posted: 28 Dec 2005 08:59 pm    Post subject: More Sub-M Additions
By Dhall

Tuvia (new listing) 
DD 77 
SUB-M 40 

Turalla (new listing) 
Sub-M 40 

Tuval, Stephan (new listing) 
Sub-M 40 
Sub-M 41 
Sub-M 42 
Sub-M 43 

Winters, Craig Senator (new listing) 
Sub-M 41 
Sub-M 47

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Posted: 28 Dec 2005 10:12 pm    Post subject: Uncanny X-men 144
By frogcoin

checking the MCP in UX 144 polaris appears listed but the polaris in this issue is merely an ilussion of a twisted reallity that d'spayre uses in scotts mind, so that doesnt count even as a flashback. 

in resume... polaris doesnt appear in UX 144. 

and by the way merry xmas to the mcp team ,board members, moderators etc etc 

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 09:08 pm    Post subject: Sub-M 37 & 38 Additions
By Dhall

Dorma 
SUB-M 36 
**SUB-M 37-FB 
SUB-M 37 
**SUB-M 38-FB 
SUB-M 38 


Llyra 
**SUB-M 37-FB-BTS 
SUB-M 36 
SUB-M 37 
SUB-M 43 
SUB-M 44 

Sub-M 37-FB: (Behind the scenes) Llyra orders three Lemurians to kidnap Dorma, which they do. 

Ikthon 
SUB-M 37 
**SUB-M 38-FB 

Namor 
SUB-M 37 
**SUB-M 38-FB 
SUB-M 38 
SUB-M 39 

Vashti 
SUB-M 37 
**SUB-M 38-FB 
**SUB-M 38 
SUB-M 56 

Sub-M 38-FB: Back in Atlantis, namor enters holding Dormas body. Ikthon is here in chains, taunting Namor. 

Note: There are numerous other flashback's to Namor's youth, but since I am unfamiliar with his Golden Age appearances, I have no way of placing these, or knowing if they are new material.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 01:39 am    
By JLH

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Note: There are numerous other flashback's to Namor's youth, but since I am unfamiliar with his Golden Age appearances, I have no way of placing these, or knowing if they are new material. 
<<<

Then why not do an analysis of the issues and post them to the board?

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 28 Dec 2005 05:14 pm    Post subject: Uncanny Origins #9
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm sure many months ago somebody here did a detailed analysis of UNCANNY ORIGINS #9 - it's certainly heavily referenced in Storm's listing. Unfortunately, I can't find it anywhere, despite searching for all the obvious terms. Where is it?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2005 05:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Try the May 2004 archive. 


watching: degrassi tng

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 04:46 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Thanks, Russ!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 04:28 pm    Post subject: Hulk #340
By captamr

In an issue more famous for yet another Hulk-Wolverine battle and a great McFarlane Wolverine cover (possibly his first X-Men work??), Betty Banner is missing: 

BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 

H2 339 
*H2 340 
H2 342
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Thread 53

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 03:23 pm    Post subject: DD vs Punisher
By rhod

Thinking back to the discussion on another thread (which I can't find right now) about the identity of this series' Jackal, an idea occured to me. While I know that placing new books in the past is frowned upon, (unless specifically intended to be set in the past), is it possible that that's what's happening here? 

In DDvP 3, comment is made that Punisher and Bushwhacker have never fought before. If this is true, this would mean this series nust occur before Punisher War Journal 12-13. Anybody know what the Jackal was up to at that time? (I think he was probably dead, but does anyone know for sure?)

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 09:31 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I also, (at first) considered the idea of pushing this miniseries into the past, especially considering the Punisher is wearing his old costume, (complete with white gloves...)  

...but right in the first issue of the miniseries, the Punisher narrates, "Since the Kingpin of Crime was taken down, half the east coast's underworld has been in complete chaos." 

The Kingpin being "taken down" would be a reference to Daredevil defeating the Kingpin in DD2 50. There are still some problems with where to place this miniseries, (is it during Daredevil's "one year" gap, or after?) but we'll have to wait till the miniseries ends before making any final conclusions...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 11:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
The Kingpin being "taken down" would be a reference to Daredevil defeating the Kingpin in DD2 50. 
<<<

Not necessarily. The Kingpin's been taken down more than once. 


watching: degrassi junior high

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 11:21 am    
By rhod

Yeah, exactly, DD2 26-31 and DD 300 leap to mind. 
They're still after the first Punisher/Bushwacker meeting though. 

The only time I can remember the Kingpin being given a real pasting before that was way back in about ASM 170.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 05:04 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Doesn't this miniseries also have Bushwacker announcing that he's learned he's a mutant himself? That might pose problems with pushing it back before his earlier appearances, many of which turned on him being an anti-mutant fanatic.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2005 01:27 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Not necessarily. The Kingpin's been taken down more than once. 
<<<

True...but going by the solicitations for this miniseries, (and by interviews the writer/artist gave before it's release), I was lead to believe that this miniseries was written to tell the fallout between Punisher and Daredevil, (after Daredevil "overthrows" the Kingpin in DD2 50). 

But if the evidence points towards an earlier placement, than so be it...but two things... 

1. I'm content to just ignore the fact that Punisher is in his old costume. He recently appeared in Marvel Knights: Spiderman in his old costume as well. Apparently, when Frank chooses to interact with the rest of the Marvel universe, he simply chooses to dress in his old gear. 

2. Punisher's line about having never faced Bushwacker is troubling, but Paul O. makes a point that Bushwacker now calls himself a mutant. So basically you have to choose which reference to go with...I tend to believe Frank's memory is just a bit scattered, but we still have a couple of issues left to go...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2005 05:55 pm    
By rhod

Seeing as how this whole discussion revolves around Frank's assertation that he 'never faced him [bushwacker] before', and how Frank has never been exactly the most stable of people, even before coming back from the dead, which I'm sure must have some psychological effect, I'm willing to accept that this may take place in current continuity, though the costume may raise some issues. 
(I know for example that costume is used in determining placement for other characters, and I'm not aware of Frank wearing the old white boots and gloves in the last 8 years or so, real time, possibly longer) 

apologies for any incoherency in this post, it was my university reunion tonight, i've read back through it but i'm pretty drunk and I'm not sure it makes sense or not

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:42 pm
By Col_Fury

This week's Daredevil (78) clears up this question for us. A news program seen on the television in this issue says: 

"With the Owl behind bars after a disasterous attempt to take the Kingpin's place. And more recently, characters like the Jackal and Jigsaw all failing to fill the hole left by Fisk over two years ago--" 

This would place this series in the 'current day,' so I guess that answers that question.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 09:41 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yes, I just finished reading the issue, and noticed that as well. Now if only Bendis would make a reference to "DD:Father" so we could know where that falls in Daredevil's chronology! 

Also, the Owl is shown in prison in this issue, and though the story kind of hints that he's been in prison since DD2 45, (in which DD beat him up), I believe this appearance by the Owl is after all of his appearances in MK: Spider-man... 

Oh, and Luke Cage makes an appearance, and tells reporters that he's not there to talk about the Avengers, (showing again this storyline is now caught up with New Avengers...in fact, it must be after the New Avengers go public, judging by Luke's comment)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 02:29 am    
By Col_Fury

This week's Daredevil: Father (4) drops another clue for us. The leader of the Santerians says: 

"You know, for a guy who just won a lawsuit against a tabloid claiming that he's a super hero..." 

This would be a reference to DD 56, as opposed to the FBI case that Daredevil is dealing with 'currently.' This coupled with Jessica Jones appearing as an investigative reporter & not showing her pregnancy yet(or possibly not yet pregnant) makes me think this occurs early in the 'year gap' that DD 56 gave us. I mean, "just won a lawsuit"? That makes it sound like it was recent... 

The problem with this is Matt's goatee & Milla being nowhere in sight. Perhaps this is before he grew the beard? Or he shaved it for a time? And yet there Daredevil is jumping around in his red suit,(in DD:F 1 & 2) which would mean it's not(or most likely not) after the six weeks he spent cleaning up the Kitchen. So maybe this means it's during the six weeks, at the tail end of it. 

Milla is most likely not important to this story, so she's not making an appearance. Maybe she's busy funneling money to the Hell's Kitchen housing commission & setting up her library? 

Hopefully issues 5 & 6 will come out quickly, because I doubt there will be a reference to this in the main book now...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 11:20 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
This week's Daredevil: Father (4) drops another clue for us. The leader of the Santerians says: 

"You know, for a guy who just won a lawsuit against a tabloid claiming that he's a super hero..." 

This would be a reference to DD 56, as opposed to the FBI case that Daredevil is dealing with 'currently.' 
<<<

Now, wait, I believe the lawsuit mentioned in DD2 56 was a reference to the trial way back in DD2 26, (the start of Bendis' run on the book). That was a lawsuit he won on behalf of clients, (and earned a buttload of money for his services), he wasn't an actual client himself. 

The lawsuit that the Santerian's are referring to is the one between Matt and the Daily Globe. We never saw that lawsuit actually make it to court, because Wilson Fisk killed the publisher of the Daily Globe back around DD2 42, (and thus, they kind of dropped that whole storyline). But I guess, if the Santerian's comment is to be believed, than the lawsuit eventually ended up in court anyway, or was resolved out of court, (either way, apparently the lawsuit ended in Murdock's favor). 

Beyond that, though, I'm starting to agree with you Col. Fury. Matt's smug attitude, about Hell's Kitchen being his territory, (and not giving a damn about what happens to NYC outside of Hell's Kitchen), these all seem to point to the period after Matt defeated the Kingpin in DD2 50. Still, we have a couple more issues before we can make a ruling one way or the other...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2005 01:49 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I haven't picked up DD: Father #5 yet, but this interview just popped up on Newsarama, concerning the DD: Father miniseries. In the interview, Quesada gives the following quote: 

Quote: 
>>>
As far as Matts concerned, these guys are posers or worse yet, hes not even really sure if theyre good guys or bad, Quesada said. Remember, this story takes place during the continuity window right after DD proclaims himself the Kingpin and hes probably a bit less tolerant and trusting than in the past, which is actually a big understatemen). So, hes looking for a little payback for what they did. Remember, at this point, hes the Kingpin, and he cant have word get out that someone mopped the floor with him  which they did in issue #3, and he kindly returned the favor in issue #4. 
<<<

So there you have it. This clearly falls in the 1 year gap, possibly in the "6 weeks" that Daredevil spent cleaning up Hell's Kitchen. I'm actually leaning towards it being shortly after the initial "6 weeks" period, as the narration from the first few issues suggests that Hell's Kitchen is pretty well crime free by that point. The only problems I see is that Matt appears as a lawyer, and also as Daredevil. According to Bendis, Matt Murdock wasn't around during that 6 week period, (he had gone into seclusion, and it was only Daredevil seen out on the streets). But after that 6 week period, Matt supposedly stopped wearing the Daredevil costume until DD2 59. So one of the two has got to give, to make DD: Father work.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 54

Posted: 31 Dec 2005 09:07 am    Post subject: X:HY corrections
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Some trivial corrections, since I'm working on indexing these issues at the moment... 

Professor X is behind the scenes at the end of X:HY 7 - the FF have been visiting him. He wheels himself into the room in the first scene of the next issue, so he's evidently just outside in the closing scene of X:HY 7. 

The Phoenix Force is currently listed as simply behind the scenes in X:HY 8. It's actually seen outside the spacecraft on page 15, panel 5. More to the point, the Phoenix also influences Jean in X:HY 9, so it should have BTS appearance there as well.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 55

Posted: 31 Dec 2005 04:09 pm    Post subject: M/TU 1
By Dhall

In M/TU 1, Peter is worried about being late for his date with Gwen. This issue is currently placed between ASM 94, and 95, when Gwen is in London, after the death of her father. Might this issue go a bit earlier, perhaps before ASM 91? Or after Gwen returns to the states, between 98 and 99? 

Spider-Man 
ASM 94 
A 85 
M/TU 1 (This is the current placement) 
CA 137 
CA 138 
DD 77 
SUB-M 40 
ASM 95 

And Gwen should perhaps get a BTS app. for M/TU 1.

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Thread 56

Posted: 31 Dec 2005 07:14 pm    Post subject: FF 108-109
By Dhall

**Nega-Man (new listing) 
FF 108-FB-FB 
FF 108-FB 

Richards, Franklin Benjamin 
FF 107 
** FF 109-BTS 
FF 110 
FF 111 

Franklin is bts in ff 109, as when Agatha Harkness calls Sue to reprimand her, she 
Says that Little Franklin and I have been expecting youDo you wish to disappoint your own infant son? 

The implication being that Franklin is with Agatha, most likely very nearby, since she is supposed to be watching him.

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Thread 57

Posted: 04 Dec 2005 09:49 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for AF2 13/2-14/2, (Captain Universe)
By Kevin W.
Director

Amazing Fantasy v2 #13/2  14/2 
Written by Jay Faerber 
Drawn by Carlos Magno 

This is the back up story from these two issues, which reintroduces Captain Universe to Marvel audiences. 

Amazing Fantasy v2 #13/2 
Power Corrupted Pt. 1 
Written by Jay Faerber 
Drawn by Carlos Magno 

Appearances: The Uni-Power, New Characters: Cinglet, Xennon, Ted Simmons, Leslie Simmons, Burns 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-2: Narrative caption reads: The Microverse2 months ago. Cinglet and Xennon, (two funky looking aliens) are investigating a strange asteroid that has a space station attached to it. They enter the vessel and discover an undiscovered language written on the walls. They then open a door leading deeper into the vessel and stumble across a cryogenic tube containing some sort of figure inside 

Pgs. 3-8: Narrative caption reads: Chicago, IL. Now. Ted Simmons, (in the Captain Universe outfit) has come home to his wife to explain the day hes had. It turns out Ted is a beat cop that was trying to rescue a suicidal man, when the Uni-Power possessed him. He rescued the suicidal man and is now telling his wife that hes a superhero now. He goes out on superhero patrol, only to encounter a group of armed thugs who had just robbed a bank, and who are now in a firefight against some other cops out in the street. Ted starts to beat up the bad guys, but then his powers malfunction, and another cop named Burns gets killed in the crossfire. Ted doesnt understand why the powers failed him, and he demands the Captain Universe powers leave his body. 

References: 

There is a single flashback in this issue, which runs from 3p4-4p1: In it, as Ted narrates, we see Ted as a beat cop, trying to rescue a man dangling from a ledge. The Uni-Power suddenly enters his body, and he rescues the man with ease. This obviously occurs shortly before the events on pg. 3 unfold. 

Amazing Fantasy v2 #14/2 
Power Corrupted Pt. 2 
Written by Jay Faerber 
Drawn by Carlos Magno 

Appearances: The Uni-Power, Cinglet, Xennon, New Characters: Gabriel Vargas, Luis 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-2: Narrative Caption Reads: The MicroverseTwo Months Ago. Continuing right from where we left off from pgs. 1-2 last issue, Cinglet and Xennon pull the cryogenic tube onto their spaceship and examine it further. Their ships computer quickly translates the writing found in the ancient vessel, and they read it to find that the figure placed in the cryogenic tube was placed there as punishment for some crime 

Just then, some sort of energy/meteor shower sweeps through the region, striking Cinglet and Xennons spaceship 

Pgs. 3-8: Narrative Caption reads, Brooklyn, NY. Now. A young thief is running down the sidewalk, having just stolen a few bucks from a local store. A handicapped man in a wheelchair named Gabriel Vargas tries to stop the thief, but the thief escapes. Vargas feels useless in his inability to stop the thief. Luis, a local shop owner, says that the thief only got away with a few bucks, and that Vargas shouldnt beat himself up over it. We learn that Vargas is a local hero in this neighborhood, having gone to war, saved some teammates in an incident during the war, but ended up in a wheelchair. 

Vargas heads home to mope around. Inside his apartment, he is suddenly confronted by the Uni-Power, which appears before him as a glowing orb. The Uni-Power talks directly to Vargas, (something I dont believe its every truly done before), and explains to him that its powers are malfunctioning for some reason, (this is the reason the powers failed Ted Simmons last issue). It tells Vargas that it has seen that he is a man of bravery, and offers to bond with him, if Vargas will help him investigate the cause of its powers malfunctioning. Vargas agrees to go on this quest with the Uni-Power, and the Uni-Power says that before it can restore the use of Vargas legs, it has to go and bond with some of Earths mightiest heroes, to replicate their powers, (it has to do this because its powers are malfunctioning, and not at full strength). The Uni-Power states that it shall go and try and replicate the powers of the Hulk first 

References: 

Pg. 5: The way Vargas is moping around, he makes it sound like his being in a wheelchair is a recent incident. Luis tries to reassure him that hes a hero, and says, You saved two of your men after your humvee hit that mine. The story doesnt specifically say what war Vargas was wounded in, but I think its safe to say the story is hinting this is a soldier who served over in the current Iraq conflict. 

Pg. 8: There is a Daily Bugle newspaper lying on the table in Vargas apartment, which has a picture of the Hulk, and a headline that reads, Hulk Menace. 

This issue leads directly into the Captain Universe: Hulk one-shot, so theres probably not much time that has passed in between the two issues. 

Going by clues in the Captain Universe issues, this all must occur before Murdock Papers in Daredevil, and thus, it is probably more than likely Pre-HOM. 

Thats it for now. The main story in AF2 #13-14 will probably be next, though Im also working on Daredevil vs. Punisher.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 58

Posted: 04 Dec 2005 10:01 pm    Post subject: What If? vol. 1 #20
By lkseitz

"What If the Avengers Had Fought the Kree-Skrull War Without Rick Jones?" 

First, I have to note that I don't have the original issues, just the Avengers: Kree-Skrull War TPB. I'm going to assume there were no editorial changes to the material. 

p. 1: Splash page with intro by Uatu. He notes that "months ago, Earth's mightiest heroes became embroiled in a deadly stellar conflict men have come to call the Kree-Skrull War!" Since none of Uatu's other WI? introductions have been put in his chronology yet, I'm not going to attempt to place this one. 

p. 2, panel 1-5: A brief intro by Uatu about the Skrulls and Kree. No characters identified to be chronologized. Um, is that a word? 

p. 2, panel 6-p. 3, panel 1: The Super-Skrull addresses Captain Mar-vell while Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch are also held captive. These two panels do not exactly correspond to, but are obviously supposed to take place around Avengers #94, pages 7-9. If desired, these two panels could be inserted right before p. 7, panel 4. A couple of phrases would be repeated ("...you, once the mightest warrior of the Kree galaxy..." and "...the death of Earth?"), but the conversation would still hold together. 

CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPTAIN MAR-VELL [KREE] 
... 
A 93 
*WI? 20 
A 94 
... 

QUICKSILVER 
... 
A 93 
*WI? 20 
A 94 
... 

SCARLET WITCH 
... 
A 93 
*WI? 20 
A 94 
... 

SUPER SKRULL 
... 
A 93 
*WI? 20 
A 94 
... 

p. 3, panel 2: Said to take place at the same time as panel 2. Princess Anelle asks her father, the Skrull Emperor, to "stop this bloodshed." He essentially tells her to shut up; Earth and Kree must fall. This is harder to place. Anelle's sentiment is similar to one she made in Avengers #94, page 10, panel 4, but the Emperor's response doesn't match. Further more, this panel takes place *after* the Super-Skrull talks to Mar-vell. So we'll have to assume this panel is part of some conversation prior to A 94 and Anelle is making a broader appeal than in A 94. 

DORREK 
... 
CM 2 
*WI? 20 
A 94 
... 

PRINCESS ANELLE 
... 
CM 2 
*WI? 20 
A 94 
... 

p. 3, panel 3: Rick Jones is held hostage by the Kree. Uatu's narration implies this shows his capture, but this does not match A 95, p. 20 at all. There he was grabbed bya Kree flying with a rocket pack. Here he's being held at gunpoint by a Kree man dressed the same. I'd say this panel takes places just after the Kree man gets Rick inside the Kree ship. 

(See below for chronology.) 

p. 3, panel 4: Boy, we're getting nit picky now. This panel shows the Avenger's starship encountering the Skrull fleet. An unidentified Avengers says, "Skrull starships -- thousands of them!" This does not appear in A 96, so . . . 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 
... 
A 95 
A 96 
*WI? 20-BTS 
A 96 
... 

HAWKEYE 
... 
A 95 
A 96 
*WI? 20-BTS 
A 96 
... 

IRON MAN 
... 
A 95 
A 96 
*WI? 20-BTS 
A 96 
... 

THOR 
... 
A 95 
A 96 
*WI? 20-BTS 
A 96 
... 

VISION II 
... 
A 95 
A 96 
*WI? 20-BTS 
A 96 
... 

One of these should not be BTS because they are speaking, but since there's no way to identify who . . . . 

p. 3, panel 5: Rick Jones confronts the Supreme Intelligence and says "Far out!", which he didn't say in A 96. Again, we're getting really nitpicky here. 

JONES, RICK 
... 
A 95 
*WI? 20 
A 96 
*WI? 20 
A 96 
... 

p. 3, panel 6: Identical to A 96, p. 9 except for the absence of the Fin and the reversal of Captain America and Sub-Mariner's positions. 

The rest of WI? 20 explores the alternate reality. AFAIK, none of these alternate versions of the characters have reappeared, so they aren't worth creating chronologies for them. (See, I have some restraint.)
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 59

Posted: 08 Dec 2005 09:40 am    Post subject: Daredevil: Redemption 1-6
By Col_Fury

Daredevil: Redemption 1 
W: David Hine 
D: Michael Gaydos 
Published: April, 2005 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Foggy Nelson, Constance MacDermid, Joel Flood, Emily Flood, Amos Flood, Howard Gideon, Bradley Gideons corpse, John Stonehouse, Adrienne Bowen, Saul Bowen, Joy Bowen. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: redemption Valley, Alabama; Seven years ago 
Some cops find Bradley Gideons body and inform Howard(the father). 
Pg3: Three days later 
John Stonehouse and some cops arrest Joel Flood, his girlfriend Adrienne Bowen, and her mentally retarded brother Saul Bowen for the murder. 
Pg4-pg7: Hells Kitchen; One month later, night 
Daredevil tries to stop a father from beating his son. 
Pg8-pg13: Later, daytime 
Matt is talking with his intern Constance when Joels mother Emily asks Matt to take her sons case. Matt tells Foggy that he will. 
Pg14-pg15: Huntsville International Airport, Alabama 
Matt, Constance, and Emily take a cab to the Flood residence. 
Pg16-pg18: the Flood residence 
The three go inside and meet Joy Bowen(Adrienne & Sauls mom) whos been taking care of Amos(whos mute & paralyzed) while Emily was away. Matt settles in Joels room, where hell be staying, and Emily checks on Amos. 
Pg19-pg21: Kramer County Jail 
Matt talks with Joel. 
Pg22-pg23: that night 
Daredevil looks around the church that Joel was arrested in and finds some interesting things. 

References: 
This takes place seven years ago, but there is no present day. Its presented as current, albeit seven years ago. Therefore, theres no FB notation for these issues. 

Daredevil tries to stop domestic abuse on a Saturday night, and the following office scene is probably on a Monday. Most likely, they took a plane to Alabama the next day, so 

One day: pg1-pg2 
Three days later: pg3 
One month later, Saturday: pg4-pg7 
Monday: pg8-pg13 
Tuesday: pg14-pg23 

Daredevil: Redemption 2 
W: David Hine 
D: Michael Gaydos 
Published: April, 2005 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Constance MacDermid, Joel Flood, Emily Flood, Amos Flood, Howard Gideon, Karla Faye Gideon, Adrienne Bowen, Saul Bowen, Jack Olsen, Stan Finley, John Stonehouse in FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: the Flood residence 
Matt and Constance talk with Emily about the case, Amos is present. 
Pg3-pg4: soon after 
Matt shows Constance what he found last night 
Pg5-pg7: Redemption, later that day 
Matt and Constance go into town to see attorney Jack Olsen, who tells them that Henry Mayhew is Adriennes lawyer, and that Stan Finley is Sauls. He then plays Sauls confession. 
Pg8-pg9: FB 
Saul gives a confession to Stonehouse. 
Pg10-pg13: Redemption 
They notice some inconsistencies in the confession, so Matt visits Saul and his lawyer. Saul admits that the confession was false. 
Pg14-pg15: Meanwhile 
Constance talks with Adrienne 
Pg16-pg17: Kramer County Jail 
and Matt tells Joel what Adrienne told Constance. Adrienne is pregnant with Joels child. 
Pg18-pg22: that night 
Howard talks with his wife Karla Faye about how he used to beat Bradley, and he becomes agitated when she says that Matt was asking her questions. He starts to beat her, while Daredevil watches outside. 

References: 
Within Sauls FlashBack are earlier FlashBacks, but they were representations of the false confession. As revealed a few pages later, they didnt really happen. 

This issue is the day following the bulk of last issue, so its a Wednesday. 

Daredevil: Redemption 3 
W: David Hine 
D: Michael Gaydos 
Published: May, 2005 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Constance MacDermid, Joel Flood, Emily Flood, Amos Flood, Howard Gideon, Karla Faye Gideon, John Stonehouse, Foggy Nelson-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: the Gideon residence 
Howard wakes up. 
Pg2-pg5: Redemption 
Matt and Constance decide to go to the sheriffs office to get some evidence that was sent there by mistake. As they leave Olsens office(which Matt is using while hes in town, no Olsen present) they encounter a group of protestors that includes Howard and Karla Faye. 
Pg6-pg7: soon after 
They drive to the sheriffs office and talk about Daredevil, then get the evidence from Stonehouse. 
Pg8-pg9: Kramer County Jail, later 
Matt talks with Joel 
Pg10: the Flood residence 
Matt and Constance go over the evidence, and she says that she can get a voice simulator for Amos, so he can testify to give Joel an alibi. They discover bite marks on the body.(well, photographs of the marks on the body, anyway) 
Pg11: the next day 
Constance talks with Foggy on the phone, and says the bite marks are good evidence for Joels case. 
Pg12-pg16: Redemption, Sunday 
Matt, Constance, Emily, and Amos go to church. Afterwards, the reverend invites them to a book burning this Wednesday while Howard and Karla Faye watch. 
Pg17-pg18: the Gideon residence, later that day 
Howard and Stonehouse talk about Howards teeth. 
Pg19-pg22: later that night 
Howards drinking, Karla Faye goes to bed. Daredevil drops by to intimidate Howard, but hes pulled his teeth out! 

References: 
We dont hear Foggy or see him on the other end, so he gets a BTS for this issue. 

Pg1-pg10: Thursday 
Pg11: Friday 
Pg12-22: Sunday 

Daredevil: Redemption 4 
W: David Hine 
D: Michael Gaydos 
Published: June, 2005 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Constance MacDermid, Joel Flood, Emily Flood, Amos Flood, Howard Gideon, Karla Faye Gideon, Adrienne Bowen, Saul Bowen, John Stonehouse, Judge Stoughton. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: picks up from last issue 
Daredevil runs off and Howard tells the cops that Daredevil pulled his teeth out. 
Pg4-pg5: Redemption, the next day 
Stonehouse tells Matt to lay off the Gideons. Matt says the voice simulator will arrive tomorrow. 
Pg6-pg8: the Flood residence, the next day 
Amos uses the simulator to (basically)tell his wife that shes going to hell. He also refuses to give Joel an alibi. Matt asks Emily why Amos is acting like this... 
Pg9-pg13: Kramer County Jail 
and she tells him and Joel about how her grandfather used to rape her, through FlashBacks, of course. 
Pg10pn2-pn3, pn5(out of 6): FB 
A twelve year old Emily and her grandfather. 
Pg11pn4-pg13pn3: FB 
Four years later Emily met Amos in his church, a year later they got married, but she was already pregnant with her grandfathers child. Eight months later, Joel is born. Three years before now(which is seven years ago from our time, mind you) her grandfather confesses to his wife what he did, on his deathbed. She(the grandmother) screams at Emily in church while Amos is preaching, so he has a stroke which paralyzes him. 
Pg14-pg22: Redemption, Wednesday 
Matt and Constance talk, she says that shes going to the book burning tonight. Later, Stonehouse and Stoughton talk about town history while watching the bonfire. Constance shows up, Howard tells her to leave, Daredevil arrives and the crowd starts throwing rocks at them. They leave. 
Pg23: Kramer County Courthouse, Day One of the trial 
Joel, Adrienne, and Saul enter the courthouse. 

A C moon is seen on Wednesday night over Alabama. Im not sure if thats called a waxing or waning crescent, but it looks like this: "(", not this: ")". Just to be safe, the sliver of moon that we can see is on our left. 

Pg1-pg3: Sunday night 
Pg4-pg5: Monday 
Pg6-pg13: Tuesday 
Pg14-pg22: Wednesday 
Pg23: Day One of the trial 

Daredevil: Redemption 5 
W: David Hine 
D: Michael Gaydos 
Published: July, 2005 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Constance MacDermid, Joel Flood, Emily Flood, Amos Flood, Howard Gideon, Karla Faye Gideon, Adrienne Bowen, Saul Bowen, John Stonehouse, Judge Stoughton, Henry Meyhew, Stan Finley, James Sprenger, Jack Olsen, Bradley Gideon in FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: Kramer County Courthouse, Day One of the trial 
Opening statements. 
Pg3pn5-pn6: FB 
Same panels from issue 1, no new information 
Pg5-pg7: Day Two 
Stonehouse is questioned. 
Pg8: Day Four 
Ruby Stevens is questioned. 
Pg9: Day Twelve 
Dr. Walter Griffin is questioned. 
Pg10-pg12: Day Fifteen 
Dr. Arthur Woods is questioned. 
Pg13: Day Sixteen 
Matt talks with Judge Stoughton. 
Pg14-pg18: Day Eighteen 
Howard Gideon is questioned. 
Pg15pn5: FB 
Howard looks at his sons blood on his hands 
Pg16pn2, pn4: FB 
Howard finds his son, alive. 
Pg19-pg20: Day Twenty Two 
Joel Flood is questioned. 
Pg21-pg22: Day Twenty Five 
Closing Arguments. 
Pg23: Day Twenty Six 
The jury has reached a verdict 

References: 
Assuming that the trial started on a Monday, and since trials dont take place on weekends, and therefore weekend days arent considered days of the trial... 

Day 1: Monday 
Day 2: Tuesday 
Day 4: Thursday 
Day 12: Tuesday 
Day 15: Friday 
Day 16: Monday 
Day 18: Wednesday 
Day 22: Tuesday 
Day 25: Friday 
Day 26: Monday 

Daredevil: Redemption 6 
W: David Hine 
D: Michael Gaydos 
Published: August, 2005 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Foggy Nelson, Constance MacDermid, Joel Flood, Emily Flood, Amos Flood, Howard Gideon, Karla Faye Gideon, Adrienne Bowen, Saul Bowen, Daniel Flood, John Stonehouse, Judge Stoughton. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: New York, Now 
Matt gets a letter from Emily Flood. 
Pg2: FB; Seven years ago, Day Twenty Six of the trial 
Joel, Adrienne, and Saul are found guilty. Joel gets the death sentence, while Adrienne and Saul get life without parole. 
Pg3-pg4: Redemption, Now 
Matt meets with Emily and Constance. Matt and Constance catch up. 
Pg5-pg6: Holman Correctional Center 
Matt visits Joel. 
Pg7: Holman Correctional Center, the day before the execution 
Family and friends visit one last time, Joels & Adriennes son Daniel is there. Later that night, someone tries to call Matt at his hotel but hangs up. 
Pg8-pg12: the next day 
Joel is executed at 6:43 PM. 
Pg13-pg19: the Gideon residence, soon after 
Howard goes home to re-sedate his wife, but daredevil has freed her. Secrets are revealed through FlashBacks, Stonehouse and some cops arrive to arrest Howard. 
Pg14pn2-pg15pn1: FB 
Daredevil sets Karla Faye free after the execution. 
Pg15pn2-pg16: FB 
Karla Faye finds evidence that Howard killed their son, she tries to call Matt at his hotel, but Howard stops her. 
Pg12pn7: FB 
Redundant FlashBack, its the same panel of Matt answering the phone from pg7pn7. No new information. 
Pg20-pg22: the Flood residence, the next day 
Emily, Adrienne, and Daniel scatter Joels ashes in the garden, Amos is left in the sun and goes blind because he cant shut his eyes. 
Pg23-pg24: Kramer County Jail 
Howard is in a holding cell. An editors box tells us that hes eventually found guilty of killing Bradley Gideon, and that hes now on death row. 

This issue takes place now, the only part that takes place seven years ago(the time frame of the previous five issues) is pg2, which is a FlashBack. 

One day: pg1 
Later: pg3-pg6 
Later still: pg7 
The next day: pg8-19 
The day after that: pg20-pg22 
Later: pg23-pg24 

Both Constance and Joel mention Matt being outed as Daredevil, so this is current day, or as current as the main Daredevil book is, anyway. The letter Emily wrote Matt is dated May, so if that lines up with a gap in Daredevils main book, thats probably the strongest placement clue we have for the current day portion. 

Assuming an average of two years our time roughly equals one year Marvel time, seven years ago would put us somewhere in 1991, which is right around Daredevil 300, which is when Matt got his law firm back after not having it for quite a while. DD 301-303 shows Matt and Foggy setting up their new office, so this would be a good time for them to get a new intern. This fits nicely between issues 303 & 304. 

Heres the reading order: 

DD: R 4-FB pg10pn2-pn3 
DD: R 4-FB pg11pn4-pg13 
DD: R 5-FB pg16pn2, pn4 
DD: R 5-FB pg15pn5 
DD: R 1 pg1-pg3 
DD: R 2-FB pg8-pg9 
DD: R 1 pg4-pg23 
DD: R 2 
DD: R 3 
DD: R 4 
DD: R 5 
DD: R 6-FB pg2 
-Seven Years Later- 
DD: R 6 pg1-pg7 
DD: R 6-FB pg15pn2-pg16 
DD: R 6 pg8-pg12 
DD: R 6-FB pg14pn2-pg15pn1 
DD: R 6 pg13-pg24 

Seven years ago, Matt was in Alabama a little over seven weeks. In the current day, He was in Alabama for less than one week. 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 60

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 12:03 pm    Post subject: Nightcrawler v3 #1-4
By jephyork
Director

Nightcrawler v3 #1-4 
The Devil Inside 
by Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa and Darick Robertson 


Nightcrawler v3 #1 
The Devil Inside, part one: the Locked Room 

Appearances: 

Nightcrawler 
Storm 
Wolverine 
Cyclops 
Emma Frost, BTS 
Aero ? (brunette flying student at X-Mansion) 
Nurse Christine Palmer 
Barney Franks 
Dr. Louis Childs 
Seth Walker 
Pazuzu, BTS 

Appearances, FB (pp.1-3): 

Barney Franks 
Seth Walker 
Pazuzu, BTS 
Dr. Louis Childs, BTS ? (see notes) 

Synopsis: 
Flashback, pp.1-3  One stormy night. Barney Franks, security guard at the childrens psychiatric ward of Metro-General Hospital, takes an unscheduled bathroom break. When he returns, four minutes later, 13 of the 14 children he was watching over have been violently murdered. The remaining child, Seth Walker, sits silently on the floor knotting a piece of string 

Pp.4-6  the next day, at the X-Mansion. Storm briefs Kurt on the events and asks him to look into it, fearing that a mutant is behind the deaths of 13 human children. 

Pp.7-22  evening at Metro-General Hospital, probably the next day (as they refer to the events of pp.1-3 as that night, not last night). Kurt meets night nurse Christine Palmer, who introduces him to Barney. Barney begins to intimate that true evil is behind the childrens deaths, but they are interrupted by Dr. Childs, who objects to Kurts presence and removes Barney. Kurt then goes to visit Seth, who is making small figurines out of clay, and has not spoken since the night his friends were killed. Kurts appearance frightens Seth, so he teleports away  ending up on the roof, where he discovers hoofprints burned into the surface, leading across the roofs of the city and ending at the historic Dakota Building. There Kurt spots Dr. Childs hosting a party  but they are interrupted by Barney, shouting from the street that Dr. Childs lied to him, promised the children wouldnt be hurt. Dr. Childs stares impassively down at Barney  who suddenly bursts into flames 

Notes: 

 Emma Frosts BTS here is due to a mention by Storm that Emma cant read Seth. 

 Im assuming that night nurse Christine Palmer is neither the Night Nurse title character from the 70s, or the recent Night Nurse character seen running an underground hospital for heroes in DD2 and PULSE. If Im wrong, please correct me. 

 The flying student shown on p.4 looks to me like Aero, Melody Guthrie. Are there any other flying, human-looking brunette students that we know of at the school, or can we safely assume that this is *probably* her, and give her a listing? 

 As revealed later in the arc, the demon Pazuzu is locked inside Seth, so Ive given him BTS appearances for all of Seths appearances. 

 Pp.1-3 are narrated by Storm, who describes the events of last night as we see them happening, so Ive listed it as a flashback. This story arc has quite a bit of voiceover narration from later points, and depending on context, Ive incorporated some as flashbacks and let some stand as storytelling convention. 

It is later revealed that Dr. Childs not only orchestrated the deaths of the children through a pact he made with the devil, but that he paid Barney to take the unscheduled bathroom break. Id say this qualifies him for a BTS listing for this opening flashback, considering hes behind nearly all the events it portrays. 

 Pp.4-6 has an odd scene featuring Cyclops and Wolverine. In the background, Scott gives Logan a box containing a new mask. Logan grudgingly puts it on, then punches Scott out. Im not sure what this is  possibly a joke by Darick Robertson (previously the artist on Wolverine), complaining over the ReLoad events switch back to costumes. 

I could take the scene literally, taking Wolverines anger as evidence to place this story arc just after Cyclops forced reintroduction of the costumes in ASTONX3 #1 pp.1-18. Unfortunately, though, that may not be possible, as two clues point to a later placement: 

Storm giving Kurt an assignment indicates that hes already part of her squad, an XSE member. Depending which issue you believe, Kurt joined the XSE in one of two ways  he was assigned in X #157, or joined voluntarily early into UX #444. We placed X #157 prior to the section of UX #444 Im referring to  and Logan has adopted his new costume in X #157  so both versions of Kurts joining the XSE occur after Logan has made his costume switch. Therefore, if Kurt is an XSE member in this NC3 arc, then the background scene of Logan punching Scott over a mask occurs after hes worn his ReLoad costume on at least one mission 

The bigger piece of evidence is Beast wearing *his* ReLoad costume in issues #3-4 of this arc. Going by our current theory, the Beast is the last to switch to his ReLoad outfit  he wears his Morrison leathers up until A #503, which weve placed, at the very earliest, after X #160. That in turn places NC3 #4 after X #160  and, again, after Wolvie has adopted his new costume. 

There is a gap between NC3 #2-3, but due to story flow it must only be a day or two at most  I dont think its viable to suggest placing NC3 #1-2 just after ASTONX3 #1 p.18, and placing NC3 #3-4 after X #160 and A #503. 

The Logan/Scott scene is damned odd  Id like to use it as evidence of *some*thing, but its not lining up quite right. I suppose we could use it to infer that this arc should be placed *as early as possible* after A #503  possibly the Beasts first time in his new outfit  and Wolvie is briefly mutinying, still upset about the *fairly recent* return to costumes. 

-------- 

Nightcrawler v3 #2 
The Devil Inside, part two: the Knotted Rope 

Appearances: 

Nightcrawler 
Barney Franks 
Storm 
Magik II 
Brad and Roger, Magiks guardian snakes 
Seth Walker 
Pazuzu, BTS 
Dr. Louis Childs 
Sandra Manning (Meredith Walker) 
Nurse Christine Palmer 

Synopsis: 
Pp.1-6  picking up directly from last issue, Kurt teleports the burning Barney Franks into the Central Park Reservoir, but the magical flames continue to burn underwater  and Kurt watches in horror as Barney dies. He reports in to Storm, who suggests contacting Dr. Strange  but Kurt says hed like to try someone else first 

Pp.7-13p3  Limbo. Time has no meaning here, of course, but its likely the day after pp.1-6. Kurt asks Amanda Seftons advice on the case, and she suggests that Seth may have an innate knowledge of magic  and that the knots in his string may be locking spells, keeping him from talking. 

Pp.13p4-22  one stormy night, likely the same day as pp.7-13 and the night after pp.1-6. Kurt visits Seth again, and unties one of the knots in his string  enabling Seth to talk. Seth begins to describe the night his friends died, saying that he felt hot inside and tied a knot to stop the feeling  but Dr. Childs bursts in, ordering Kurt out of his hospital and bringing a woman, who he claims is Seths only living relative, to take custody of him. On the way out off the hospital, Kurt is found by Nurse Palmer, who brings him to the morgue  where she shows him that the bodies of all the children have burned down to ash 

---- 

Nightcrawler v3 #3 
The Devil Inside, part three: Fourteen Demons 

Appearances: 

Nightcrawler 
Kitty Pryde 
Emma Frost 
Wolverine 
Beast 
Storm 
Seth Walker 
Pazuzu, BTS 
Nurse Christine Palmer 
Dr. Louis Childs 
Sandra Manning 
Magik II 
Brad and Roger, BTS 

Synopsis: 

One afternoon and night, likely two days after the end of #2. Storm interrupts a fencing match between Kurt and Kitty, chastising him for taking a time-out on Seths case. Kurt tells her that hes had the Beast do some detective work, and discovered that all fourteen children were orphans, their care sponsored by residents of the Dakota Building. That night, Kurt visits Seth again, to find that he has almost finished sculpting fourteen clay figurines  jars, he calls them. They are interrupted by Christines cry that Seths aunt is attacking Dr. Childs outside. Kurt intervenes, and at Dr. Childs urging, teleports the woman into a nearby church  where, to his astonishment, thirteen demons are exorcised from her body. 

Taking her to Limbo, Kurt and Amanda discover that Dr. Childs put the demons into the womans body, forcing her to pretend to be Seths aunt  but the demons were too strong, and forced her to attack the doctor. Amanda reveals that Brad and Roger have heard rumors that most of Satans inner circle have been freed from hell  with the exception of one, the demon Pazuzu, who remains locked somewhere in-between hell and earth. Kurt begins to put the pieces together, and realizes that the demons were freed by bursting through the bodies and souls of the children  except Seth, who used his innate magical knowledge to lock Pazuzu inside himself! Meanwhile, at the hospital, Dr. Childs enters Seths room, an ornate dagger in hand  ready to cut Pazuzu free 

Notes: 

Storm chastises Kurt for not spending enough time on Seths case, and he says hes taking some time off to clear his head  which gives the impression that some time has passed since #2. Its unclear exactly how much time has passed  both Dr. Childs and the demons possessing Sandra Manning want Pazuzu free as soon as possible, and Im unsure why theyve even waited this long. The only reason I can think of is that they dont know *how* Pazuzu was trapped, or how to free him, until the end of this issue  but that doesnt really help determine a timeframe. Ive decided to place this issue two days after the previous one, on the rationale that Storm wouldnt wait very long before urging Kurt to get back to work. 

-------- 

Nightcrawler v3 #4 
The Devil Inside, conclusion: Exorcism 

Appearances, FB (pp.1-19, 20p1, 20p3): 

Nightcrawler 
Nurse Christine Palmer 
Seth Walker 
Dr. Louis Childs 
Jeffries, a demonic doorman 
Miles, a resident of the Dakota Building, BTS ? (incapacitated by Kurt off-panel) 
Kitty Pryde 
Pazuzu 
Emma Frost 
Storm 
Cyclops 
Wolverine 
Beast 
Magik II 

Appearances: 

Nightcrawler 
Storm 
Magik II 
Pazuzu, BTS (trapped within a clay statue) 
Emma Frost 
Seth Walker 

Nurse Christine Palmer, BTS ? (Storm says that she transferred hospitals) 
Kitty Pryde, BTS ? (Storm says Kitty explained some events from the FB to her) 

Synopsis: 

Flashback, pp.1-19, 20p1, 20p3  the same night as last issue, and a lightning storm has begun. Kurt learns from Christine that Dr. Childs has taken Seth from the hospital, and he asks to borrow her phone. Meanwhile, Dr. Childs brings Seth to the Dakota Building, explaining that hes magically disrupted Kurts teleporting powers and thrown protective wards around the building. They arrive, and enter a room with thirteen smiling patrons  and thirteen demons trapped in a magic circle. Dr. Childs tells Seth that his pact with the devil, freeing the fourteen demons in exchange for fourteen years of servitude to them, is not complete until all fourteen demons have been freed and all fourteen children have died. 

Suddenly, Kurt reveals himself as one of the patrons, disguised by his image-inducer! He punches Dr. Childs, trying to keep him from cutting Seth  but all Dr. Childs needs to cut is the knot in Seths string, which he does. Suddenly Seths stomach starts bulging  which is when Kitty leaps out of the crowd as well. She phases Seth, allowing the demon Pazuzu to pass through him. Pazuzu is freed, but since Seths blood was not spilled, Dr. Childs pact is incomplete  and Pazuzu turns on him, ripping him to shreds as the circle binding the other demons dissolves 

At that moment, Amanda teleports in, with Nurse Palmer holding Seths fourteen clay statues. Combining her spells with the magic Seth imbued into the statues, Amanda is able to trap all fourteen demons inside them  and as the X-Men collect the fleeing patrons, the demons vanish in a burst of flame. 

P.20p2, pp.21-22  the next day, Kurt tells Storm how he got into the warded building  Kitty simply phased him in  and they discuss the fallout of the case. The patrons are in jail, Kurt has regained his ability to teleport, Amanda has the fourteen clay statues lined up on her hearth  and Seth is now living at the X-Mansion, studying under Emma Frost. Storm congratulates Kurt on a job well done. 

Notes: 

This issue opens normally and tells the story in traditional fashion  but on p.15 a voiceover begins: Kurt and Storm discussing the events were seeing, but from a later point. Then, on p.20, the issue begins to cross-cut, back and forth from the events Kurts describing and the scene, the following day, of him describing them. Basically, even though the issue doesnt read like a flashback at first, by the end of p.20 it appears that it is one after all  and so, logically, it must have been one all along. So Ive listed the majority of the issue as a flashback, and the remainder  p.20 panel 2, and pp.21-22  as the present-day sequence. There are some cutaways to Amanda, Emma and Seth in the last two pages  but those are cutaways to scenes happening simultaneously, not to flashbacks. 

Also, on p.21 Storm mentions that Kitty has filled her in on how she and Kurt got past the magical wards. Would that count as a BTS for Kitty? 

Stretching even further, Storm also mentions that Nurse Palmer has transferred to a different hospital. Is that a BTS for her as well? 

-------- 

Temporal references and chronological placement: 

Heres how the days fall, and the weather patterns seen on each day, over the entire arc. 

Day 1  #1 pp.1-3. Night  lightning storm. 
Day 2  #1 pp.4-6  Blue skies w/clouds, green foliage, falling green leaves. 
Day 3  #1 pp.7-22, #2 pp.1-6. Night  clear sky, full moon. 
Day 4  #2 pp.7-22. Night  lightning storm. 
Day 5  not shown 
Day 6  #3 (all), #4 pp.1-19, 20p1, 20p3. Afternoon and night  green foliage, full moon, clear sky turned to lightning storm. 
Day 7  #4 20p2, pp.21-22. Blue skies, green foliage, green falling leaves. 

It seems to be early autumn by the characters street clothes  which fits the general time period Id like to place this arc in. 

And, as discussed above, Im eying a slot immediately after A #503 to place this arc in. That allows for the Beasts ReLoad costume in #3-4 (A #503 is the final appearance of his Morrison leathers), and keeps things as close as possible to a time period where Wolvie would be sullen and combative about having to wear a costume again. 

-------- 

And to wrap up, heres the obligatory MCP-style rundown of the arc. Ive pretty much guesstimated on the befores for the X-Men, and left the afters completely blank. Im not an absolute expert on the period in question, and all I know for sure is that placing this arc after A #503 means, at the very least, also placing it after X #160  and its a safe bet that it occurs after UX #449 as well. 


AERO / MELODY GUTHRIE 
 
UX 444 
*NC3 1 (?) 
NX 20 

BEAST / HENRY P. HANK MCCOY 
 
A 503 
*NC3 3 
*NC3 4-FB 
 

CYCLOPS II / SCOTT SUMMERS 
 
UX 446 
*NC3 1 
*NC3 4-FB 
 

FROST, EMMA GRACE (as far as I know, shes no longer using the codename White Queen  is this correct?) 
 
UX 446 
*NC3 1-BTS 
*NC3 3 
*NC3 4-FB 
*NC3 4 
 

MAGIK II / JIMAINE SZARDOS / AMANDA SEFTON 
 
MGK2 4 
*NC3 2 
*NC3 3 
*NC3 4-FB 
*NC3 4 

NIGHTCRAWLER / KURT WAGNER 
 
UX 449 
*NC3 1 
*NC3 2 
*NC3 3 
*NC3 4-FB 
*NC3 4 
 

PRYDE, KATHERINE KITTY (as far as I know, shes no longer using the codename Shadowcat  is this correct?) 
 
UX 448-BTS 
*NC3 3 
*NC3 4-FB 
*NC3 4-BTS 
 

STORM / ORORO MUNROE 
 
UX 449 
*NC3 1 
*NC3 2 
*NC3 3 
*NC3 4-FB 
*NC3 4 
 

WOLVERINE / JAMES HOWLETT / LOGAN 
 
UX 449 
*NC3 1 
*NC3 3 
*NC3 4-FB 
 

-------- 

New characters: 

*CHILDS, LOUIS 
NC3 1-FB-BTS 
NC3 1 
NC3 2 
NC3 3 
NC3 4-FB 

*FRANKS, BARNEY 
NC3 1-FB 
NC3 1 
NC3 2 

*MANNING, SANDRA 
NC3 2 
NC3 3 

*PALMER, CHRISTINE 
NC3 1 
NC3 2 
NC3 3 
NC3 4-FB 
NC3 4-BTS 

*PAZUZU 
NC3 1-FB-BTS 
NC3 1-BTS 
NC3 2-BTS 
NC3 3-BTS 
NC3 4-FB 
NC3 4-BTS 

*WALKER, SETH 
NC3 1-FB 
NC3 1 
NC3 2 
NC3 3 
NC3 4-FB 
NC3 4 

And, in the extremely unlikely to ever get an MCP listing category 

*BRAD 
NC3 2 
NC3 3-BTS 

*JEFFRIES 
NC3 4-FB 

*MILES 
NC3 4-FB-BTS 

*ROGER 
NC3 2 
NC3 3-BTS 

-------- 

Coming next: either NC3 #5-6, or PP3 #1-4, depending on my mood. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 10:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Way to go, Jeph. Thanks. I'm just finishing incorporating DISTRICT X into the calendar. Then it's on to this, DAREDEVIL: REDEMPTION, and RUNAWAYS. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 06:45 pm    
By ShadZ

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
 Im assuming that night nurse Christine Palmer is neither the Night Nurse title character from the 70s, or the recent Night Nurse character seen running an underground hospital for heroes in DD2 and PULSE. If Im wrong, please correct me. 
<<<


I thought Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa had confirmed somewhere that the Christine Palmer here is the same one from Night Nurse, but I can't find that anywhere now. Anyway, Christine Palmer wasn't the title character of Night Nurse -- that was Linda Carter, who is the top unconfirmed suspect to be the Night Nurse currently appearing in Daredevil. Christine Palmer was a supporting character in Night Nurse...
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 10:29 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Christine Palmer was a supporting character in Night Nurse... 
<<<

I put up an anlysis of Night Nurse some months back, as I want it added to the MCP, because Christine Palmer shows up in Nightcrawler. 


Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 61

Posted: 07 Dec 2005 04:09 am    Post subject: District X 7-12
By Col_Fury

District X #7 
Underground pt 1 
W: David Hine 
D: Lan Medina 
Published: January 2005 

Appearances: 
Bishop(Lucas Bishop), Ismael Izzy Ortega, the Worm(Winston Hobbes), Armena Ortega, Chamayra Ortega, Laline Ortega, Mr. M(Absolon Mercator), Nancy, Matti Falcone, his brother, Nemesio Pietri, Dzemali, Jazz, Carrie, Gus Kucharskys corpse(in FB). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: evening, Mutant Town 
Matti Falcone and his brother are selling vermin for twenty bucks a pop. They run when they see a squad car, but Matti drops one into a gutter drain. AS Matti reaches in for it, we see the Worm in the sewer underneath. 
Pg4-pg6: evening, Mutant Town 
Ortega and his new partner Nancy confront the boys to ask how their father(he grows the vermin from his body) is doing. As they continue on, Izzy and Nancy talk in the squad car. 
Pg7-pg12: Later that evening, at the Ortegas apartment 
Izzy and Armena are getting ready to go to the O-Zone for an art exhibit, but Armena finds Izzys diary and they fight. Carrie the babysitter shows up and they leave. 
In front of the O-Zone, they run into Bishop, who joins them. They meet Izzys sister Laline, whos running the exhibit. She introduces them to Nemesio, whose paintings predict the future. Nemesio gets a flash of blood on Izzys hand, then shows them a picture of Winston Hobbes, the Worm! 
Pg13-pg17: Later that night, in front of the O-Zone 
Bishop, Izzy, and Armena leave the exhibit, and run into Dzemali outside. Bishop catches up with him, but is leery of the company hes keeping. They leave, but Dzemali is given a hard time by Jazz, who then gives him some drugs. 
Pg18: 
Bishop drives Izzy and Armena home, and they talk about Mr. M. 
Pg19-pg23: That night, Dantes Inferno bar 
Mr. M talks to the bartender about how business has slowed since Kaufman left. Mr. M leaves with a lady, who soon after shoots him in the head at the East River. 

References: 
Pg7pn7 is a FlashBack showing a mailman finding Gus body. 
Pg8pn1-pn2 is a FlashBack recapping the phone call Izzy had with Gus in issue 5, no new information. 
Izzy mentions in his journal that Gus body was found three days after he killed himself, which was the night of issue 5. 

Bishop mentions that he helped Dzemali out a few weeks ago, referring to X-Men Unlimited vol. 2 #2. Assuming a few means three, this would put this District X #7 three weeks or so after X-Men Unlimited vol. 2 #2. 

The story starts in the evening and continues into the same night, all in one day. 

Theres cold weather outside, people are wearing hats and coats, and peoples breath can be seen. Theres a full moon over the East River. 

District X #8 
Underground pt 2 
W: David Hine 
D: Lan Medina 
Published: February 2005 

Appearances: 
Bishop(Lucas Bishop), Ismael Izzy Ortega, the Worm(Winston Hobbes), Armena Ortega, Chamayra Ortega, Esteban Ortega, Mr. M(Absolon Mercator), Nemesio Pietri, Mr. Vazhin, Gregor Smerdyakov, Hanna, Lara King, Melek. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: 8:24 AM, a New York hospital 
Mr. M is with Hanna, while Izzy talks with the doctor. Mr. M should be dead from last nights gunshot wound, but isnt. As Mr. M and Hanna leave, Izzy calls Bishop. 
Pg3: Later, the Precinct 11 Station House 
Izzy accuses Bishops boss of hiring a professional to kill Mr. M. 
Pg4-pg7: Later, New York 
Bishop confronts and threatens his boss Mr. Vazhin, who did hire a professional to kill Mr. M. 
Pg8: 
Bishop leaves and calls Izzy, but he isnt home. Armena invites him up anyway. Izzy is seen at the park with Hanna, Mr. M, Esteban and Chamayra. 
Pg9-pg11: at the park 
Izzy and Hanna run into Gregor, who tells them about the tunnel rats, mutants who live in the sewers.(not to be confused with the Morlocks) Izzy isnt happy to hear about families living underground, but the tunnel rats are armed and dont want to leave. 
Pg12-pg16: the Ortegas apartment 
Armena and Bishop are talking about things, when Izzy and the kids return. Bishop is comforting a crying Armena, which is awkward. Izzys pissed, Bishop leaves, Armena goads Izzy, and then he chokes her. He leaves and runs into Bishop whos waiting outside, Izzy slugs him and keeps walking. 
Pg17: the Wildkat Klub 
Izzy asks Lara the Illusionist to look like his wife. 
Pg18-pg20: Underground 
The Worm watches a meeting Melek has called with all of the tunnel rats. They decide that the surface people wont leave them alone, so he decides to shut off their power. Nemesio is seen, worried about whats going to happen. 
Pg21-pg22: St. Jeromes Childrens Hospital 
The Worm leaves the sewer and kills a security guard. 

References: 
All in one day, the day after last issue. 

Trees have autumn colored leaves during the day, and its snowing at night, which matches yesterdays cold weather. 

District X #9 
Underground pt 3 
W: David Hine 
D: Lan Medina 
Published: March 2005 

Appearances: 
Bishop(Lucas Bishop), Ismael Izzy Ortega, the Worm(Winston Hobbes), Armena Ortega, Chamayra Ortega, Esteban Ortega, Laline Ortega, Nancy, Nemesio Pietri, Mitya Smerdyakov, Melek, Millicent Ferrall, Dzemali, Ahmed, Walker & Andrea Hobbes(in FB). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Mutant Town, the Ortegas apartment, dawn 
Izzy comes home to Armena watching the news. They talk briefly and start to patch things up when Izzy is called to the station. 
Pg4-pg6: Precinct 11 station house 
Izzy has been re-partnered with Bishop, Nancy gives Izzy a hard time. They read a note from Melek, and Bishop says they have three days before SWAT teams moves into the sewers. A witness from the childrens hospital describes the Worm, who Bishop recognizes from Nemesios painting. Izzy calls his sister. 
Pg7-pg9: Later, Nemesios apartment 
Bishop, Izzy, and Laline look around, but Nemesio is gone. Therere more prophecy tic paintings, Izzy gets more agitated. 
Pg10-pg11: Underground 
Nemesio is with the tunnel rats, but transit cops are trying to run them out. This upsets Melek 
Pg12-pg13: Precinct 11 station house 
Bishop and Izzy are discussing the case when Gregors sister comes to see Izzy. She thinks Gregor is with Nemesio. Another message arrives from Melek, threatening another blackout. 
Pg14: Underground 
Melek and Ahmed combine their powers to sabotage power lines from underground, instead of going up to do it personally. Dzemali watches. 
Pg15-pg17: Mutant Town, evening 
The blackout happens, and Millicent Ferrall is killed by the Worm in her apartment. 
Pg18: Millicents apartment, an hour later 
Bishop and Izzy show up and discover she used to work at St. Jeromes. 
Pg19-pg22: St. Jeromes 
They talk to Millicents boss, who gives them a history lesson on the Worm. They decide to visit the parents. 
Pg20pn4-pg21pn4: FB 
A four year old Winston Hobbes is dropped off at St. Jeromes by his parents, more or less raised by Millicent, then escapes at age sixteen. 

References: 
All in one day, the day after last issue. 

Theres snow everywhere! 

The Worm escaped from St. Jeromes years ago. 

District X #10 
Underground pt 4 
W: David Hine 
D: Lan Medina 
Published: April 2005 

Appearances: 
Bishop(Lucas Bishop), Ismael Izzy Ortega, the Worm(Winston Hobbes), Chamayra Ortega, Esteban Ortega, Mr. Vazhin, Carrie, Nemesio Pietri, Melek, Sarah, Dzemali(& his dad in FB), Walker & Andrea Hobbes, Lara King-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: the Hobbes residence, dawn 
Bishop and Izzy talk to the Hobbes, decide to move them to a safe house. Bishop calls Mr. Vazhin to give him an update. 
Pg3-pg5: the Ortegas apartment 
Izzy goes home to clean up and pop some pills, then gives Carrie the babysitter a hard time about shedding her skin in front of his kids. 
Pg6-pg15: Soon after, Underground 
Bishop and Izzy investigate the sewers, then get attacked by some of the tunnel rats, then talk to Melek(and his wife Sarah) who says they wont leave the sewers. Then they run into Dzemali. 
Pg15pn1: FB 
Following the events of X-Men Unlimited #2, Dzemalis dad throws crumpled up money at him. 
Pg16-pg17: Later, the Hobbes residence 
Bishop and Izzy wait for the Worm to arrive, Izzy pops some more pills. 
Pg18: Underground 
Nemesio watches the Worm go through the sewers. 
Pg19-pg22: the Hobbes residence 
Izzy calls Lara while watching for the Worm, but he becomes distracted and doesnt see him approach. The Worm attacks Bishop! 

References: 
Bishop and Izzy went to the Hobbes after last issue, we know its the morning after because both mention that theyve been up all night. The midnight break is most likely between issues. This issue is all in one day. 

Chamayra mentions that today is Saturday. 

The FB is most likely the same night as X-Men Unlimited vol. 2 #2. 

Lara is on the phone with Izzy, but we dont hear her voice or see her on the other end, giving her a BTS for this issue. 

District X 11 
Underground pt 5 
W: David Hine 
D: Lan Medina 
Published: May 2005 

Appearances: 
Bishop(Lucas Bishop), Ismael Izzy Ortega, the Worm(Winston Hobbes), Armena Ortega, Esteban Ortega, Nancy, Nemesio Pietri, Mitya Smerdyakov, Mikhail Smerdyakov, Melek, Sarah, Dzemali, Wilma Parks, Lara King-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: the Hobbes residence 
Bishop is thrown through the window, Izzy hangs up on Lara and calls for backup. Inside, the Worm screams at photographs. Nancy shows up as the Worm comes out, but he escapes. 
Pg6: Later that night, the Ortegas apartment 
Izzy talks to Armena about the Worm getting away, but she scolds him about upsetting the babysitter. 
Pg7-pg12: the next morning, the Ortegas apartment 
Izzy makes Esteban feel like crap, and Armena confronts Izzy about his pills, then kicks him out. She also lets him know that she knows that hes sleeping around. 
Pg13: Later, Precinct 11 station house 
Mitya asks Izzy if hes found Gregor yet, but he had forgotten. His boss tells him to go home, hes not needed for the raid in the sewers. 
Pg14: The entrance to the sewers 
Ortega shows up anyway, and Bishop agrees to let him come along. 
Pg15-pg16: Underground 
Most of the tunnel rats inform Melek that theyre going to the surface. 
Pg17-pg18: at the entrance 
Bishop introduces Izzy to Wilma Parks from Child Welfare. They go into the sewers and meet the group going to the surface. 
Pg19-pg22: Underground 
Nemesio is running through the sewers, and meets the group. He tells them he knows where the Worm is, and takes them there. 
Pg20pn7-FB 
Izzy remembers the painting of him, no new information. 

References: 
Pg1-pg6 is the same night as last issue, pg7-pg22 is the next day. 

Izzy mentions that Mitya asked him to look for Gregor three days ago, which lines up. The same goes for the SWAT team going into the sewers. 

Same as last issue, Lara is on the phone but we dont hear her or see her on the other end, giving her a BTS for this issue. 

District X 12 
Underground pt 6 
W: David Hine 
D: Lan Medina 
Published: June 2005 

Appearances: 
Bishop(Lucas Bishop), Ismael Izzy Ortega, the Worm(Winston Hobbes), Melek, Sarahs corpse, Lara King, Gregor Smerdyakov, Mikhail Smerdyakov. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Underground 
Bishop, Izzy, and Nemesio look around the Worms place and find out that hes been eating people. 
Pg4-pg10: Underground 
They stumble across Melek fighting the Worm, whos already killed Sarah. Everyone fights, the Worm impales Nemesio, Bishop shoots the Worm with energy, the Worm attacks Bishop, Izzy shoots(several times) and kills the Worm. 
Pg9pn1, pn3, pn6, pn7, & pn8 are FlashBacks to various times from the series, all lifted pictures, no new information. 
Pg11-pg17: Underground 
Bishop and Izzy recover, Melek wanders off with Sarahs corpse, Nemesio reveals that he knew he would die down here, then dies. Izzy blames himself for everything, Bishop tells him to go home. Instead, Izzy goes to Laras place. 
Pg18-pg19: Some time later, Laras apartment 
Izzy wakes up next to Lara, he mentions that hes taking his kids to see a movie and do dad stuff. 
Pg20-pg22: Underground 
On the way to pick up his kids, Izzy stops to see Gregor. Its revealed that he fell asleep in the sewers while he was missing, and grew roots into the ground. Now hes stuck here, more plant than human. Hes even growing fruit. Mikhail is reading to him. 

References: 
Pg1-pg17 is the same night as last issue. 
Pg18-pg22 is one day, some time later, and enough time has passed for Izzy to set up visitation times with his kids. Hes wearing a jacket, but we dont see outside to see if theres still snow on the ground. Also, its most likely a weekend if the kids are going to see a movie, so theyre not in school today. 

Going by the weather its probably sometime in November, but that could be moved around if needed. As for specific days: 

Wednesday: District X 7 
Thursday: District X 8 
Friday: District X 9 
Saturday: District X 10, District X 11 pg1-pg6 
Sunday: District X 11 pg7-pg22, District X 12 pg1-pg17 
Some time later, Saturday: District X 12 pg18-pg22 

The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Marvel Knights 2005 gives us: 
X-Men Unlimited vol. 2 #2 
District X 1-6 
Madrox 1 
Uncanny X-Men 450-451 
District X 7-12 

It says that Madrox established XXX Investigations 'soon after' the events of District X 6. Also, XXX Investigations was established 'around the same time as' the events of Uncanny X-Men 450-451. 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 09 Dec 2005 10:11 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Marvel Knights 2005 gives us: 
X-Men Unlimited vol. 2 #2 
District X 1-6 
Madrox 1 
Uncanny X-Men 450-451 
District X 7-12 

It says that Madrox established XXX Investigations 'soon after' the events of District X 6. Also, XXX Investigations was established 'around the same time as' the events of Uncanny X-Men 450-451.  
<<<

I would like to point out this conflicts with the proposed chronology for District X 1-6 vs. Madrox 1-5. See the following thread for details, (in particular, look for Paul O'Brien's well stated post): 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1228 

Did we ever come to a concensus on order of events for these issues? I leave it to others who are more well versed in all chronology that is X-men related...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 10 Dec 2005 01:10 am    
By Col_Fury

Thanks for the tip! 

Could we take the 'XXX Investigations' reference in the Handbook to mean 'X-Factor Investigations'? Paul O. is right about Bishop not being around between issues 6 & 7 of Distict X, so Bishop's appearance in Madrox would fit between District X 2 & 4. 'X-Factor Investigations' was extablished at the end of Madrox 5, so that would still work, but having 'XXX Investigations' established after Distict X 6 wouldn't. Specifically, here's what the Handbook says, parentheses are mine: 

Quote: 
>>>
...illusion cast by mutant prostitue Lara, and Mercator was arrested.(District X 6) 
Soon after, Jamie Madrox established the XXX Investigators firm in Mutant Town with his former X-Factor teammates, Strong Guy and Wolfsbane. One of their first cases concerned a wheel-chair-bound man who was cheating on his wife via astral projection with another man.(Madrox 2-4) Around the same time, a spate of human murders in the District by a mutant possessing Adamantium claws(Uncanny 450-451) led... 
Later, Bishop was once again partnered with Ortega(District X 7-12) to investigate a group of underground-dwelling mutants... 
<<<

Now, this Handbook was published in February 2005, District X 7-12 was published January through June 2005, Madrox 1-5 was published November 2004 through March 2005, and Uncanny 450 & 451 were both published in December 2005. 

It looks to me that this Handbook entry was put together from plots of upcoming books, or rather books still in production, not from already published, or finished, books. Some of the details in the finished product most likely wasn't taken into account when the Handbook was written.(for instance, Ortega being in/out of uniform) With this in mind, I think the writers of the Handbook meant to say 'X-Factor Investigations,' but couldn't print it if only not to give away the surprise at the end of Madrox 5, which was published after the Handbook was. Hell, it's possible they didn't even know it would end up being named 'X-Factor Investigations.'  


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So how might Bishop's nighttime appearances in MADROX 3-4 fit within this time frame? Between the day and night scenes in DX 3? 
<<<

All things considered, that looks good to me. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And if we have this tight a correlation between MADROX and DX, and if my theory about that Magneto headline in MADROX holds water, then DX 1-6 would occur right after Disassembled. 
<<<

If that's the case, and Disassembled is in October, then the snow and cold weather seen in District X 7-12,(presumed ably late November/early December) which happens 'a few weeks' after Unlimited 2 would fit! Yay!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 10:01 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Pg20pn4-pg21pn4: FB 
A four year old Winston Hobbes is dropped off at St. Jeromes by his parents, more or less raised by Millicent, then escapes at age sixteen. 
<<<


Col_Fury, how does this FB break down in terms of discrete scenes at different times? Also, do you have an idea of how old Winston Hobbes is in the present day? 


Quote: 
>>>
Izzy mentions in his journal that Gus body was found three days after he killed himself, which was the night of issue 5.  
<<<

Which night of issue #5 is it? That issue spans three days, right? 


Quote: 
>>>
If that's the case, and Disassembled is in October, then the snow and cold weather seen in District X 7-12,(presumed ably late November/early December) which happens 'a few weeks' after Unlimited 2 would fit! Yay! 
<<<

More or less. I have Disassembled in late September, XU2 2 in mid-October (full moon), DX 1-6 at the end of October/beginning of November, UX 450-451 in mid-November, and DX 7-12 right after that (next full moon).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Dec 2005 11:41 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Which night of issue #5 is it? That issue spans three days, right? 
<<<

Oops! I meant to say "which was the night of issue 5, pg16." Sorry about that. As far as which night that was, it was the second of three in that issue.(so Gus killed himself that night, shortly after he got off the phone with Izzy, and his body was found three days later) 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Col_Fury, how does this FB break down in terms of discrete scenes at different times? Also, do you have an idea of how old Winston Hobbes is in the present day?  
<<<

pg20pn4(of 6): Mr. & Mrs. Hobbes drop Winston off at the hospital. 
pg20pn5(of 6): As they walk away, Winston is confused. 
pg20pn6(of 6): That night, Winston tries to escape by burrowing through the floor, but is stopped. After this, the staff started calling him 'the Worm.' 
pg21pn1(of 6): Years later, there was an incident where Winston injured eight members of the hospital staff. 
pg21pn2(of 6): Relatively soon after, Millicent teaches Winston how to read and write. This is the first time we see Millicent, she appears to be in her mid to late twenties. 
pg21pn3(of 6): At age sixteen, Winston escapes by burrowing through the floor. Apparently Millicent found the hole, she looks much the same as when we saw her last panel. 
pg21pn4(of 6): That night, security staff looked for Winston but to no success. 

As for how old Winston is now, they don't say. Millicent appeared to be in her mid to late twenties when Winston was sixteen, and 'now' she has wrinkles and thinning hair. Possibly forties or fifties? 

Also, his parents moved out of the sewers 'years ago,' found employment, set up a home, and had a second child, all after they left Winston at the hospital. From photographs, the second child appears to be ten or twelve. 

Depending on how long it took Mr. & Mrs. Hobbes to 'get back on their feet,' then have a child, I'd say Winston escaped from the hospital at least fifteen years ago. That would put Millicent 'now' in her early to mid forties.(I guess time hasn't treated her very well) Also, that would put Winston 'now' in his early thirties. He could have just as easily escaped twenty years ago, though.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 09:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
He could have just as easily escaped twenty years ago, though. 
<<<


From the sound of it, these flashback scenes might predate FF 1. Guess I won't worry much about 'em. Thanks, Col!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 12:07 am    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
From the sound of it, these flashback scenes might predate FF 1. 
<<<

That's the impression I got. If anything, it was 'a long time ago.' 


Quote: 
>>>
Thanks, Col! 
<<<

Hey, I do what I can. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 62

Posted: 25 Nov 2005 04:18 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #7-12
By Kevin W.
Director

I told you I'd get it done before the end of the week!  

Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #7-12 
Written by Fred Van Lente 
Drawn by Leonard Kirk and Dave Ross 

This story arc reveals the origin of the new "Scorpion", a character that seems to be popping up in a lot of places lately. Things to note: Col. Fury is in charge of SHIELD, and that this story arc must occur before HoM, as that storyline in the pgs. of Hulk, (#83-86, and in particular the stand alone #87) are somewhat of a sequel to this Amazing Fantasy arc. 

Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #7 
Poison Tomorrow Pt. 1: Worst. Homecoming. Ever. 
Written by Fred Van Lente 
Drawn by Leonard Kirk 

Appearances: New Characters: Carmilla Black, (aka Thasanee Rappaccini, aka Scorpion), Janice, Agent Derek Khanata, Agent Noriko Nagayoshi, Agent Ayna Sareva, Troy Goddard 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-2: On her 16th birthday, Carmilla Black is at her High School Prom. Her and her boyfriend have just been crowned the King and Queen of the Prom, when Carmillas stinger powers awaken for the first time and accidentally kill her boyfriend. 

Pgs. 3-20: Narrative caption reads: 3 years later. Carmilla is now 19 years old. She has just returned to her hometown of Grand Falls, Vermont, upon word that her adopted parents had been murdered. She had been gone from the town since she was 16 years old, (having fled town after the prom incident). 

She talks to the Sheriff about the investigation, (they have no suspects for her adopted parents murder). She goes to the funeral home to discuss plans for burial, and then goes to the bank to retrieve her parents safety deposit box. Inside the safety deposit box, she finds a birth certificate for herself, showing that she was born and put in an orphanage in Madripoor. This comes as a shock to Carmilla, as her adopted parents told her that they knew nothing about her real parents. According to her birth certificate, Carmillas real name is Thasanee Rappaccini. 

Cut to later that night. Carmilla is sitting down by the shore next to a lake, talking to Janice about all of her problems, when all of a sudden, A.I.M. agents burst out and attempt to kidnap Carmilla. Janice flees in terror. A SHIELD vessel arrives and the A.I.M. agents flee. SHIELD captures Carmilla. 

Agents Khanata, (a Wakandan) along with Agents Nagayoshi and Sareva interrogate her to find out where Carmillas loyalties lie. They tell her that A.I.M. killed her adopted parents to draw her out of hiding, so they could attempt to kidnap her. They tell her that her real mother is Monica Rappaccini, a high-ranking A.I.M. scientist, who is apparently trying to meet up with her daughter after all these years. Agent Khanata fears A.I.M. is preparing for a major terrorist attack, and they ask Carmilla to help them. Carmilla agrees, and they dub her Scorpion. 

Pgs. 21-22: This is possibly the next day, or could be a few days later: Carmilla is at an airport boarding a plane for Madripoor. She and Khanata conclude that Carmilla should investigate her place of birth, in hopes that A.I.M. will try and contact her again, (the idea being she infiltrates the A.I.M. operation before they can launch whatever attack they have planned). Once on the plane, she sits down next to Troy Goddard, (a young wannabe writer who is traveling the world trying to find himself), and the two hit it off as the plane takes off 

Hard to tell what the weather is like in this issue, but the trees by the lake have plenty of leafs. 

References: 

Pg. 6: Panel 3: FB- This is a quickie flashback, as Carmilla meets up with her old friend Janice, she flashes back for a split second in her mind to the dance, (probably right after pgs. 1 and 2). We see Janice at the dance, reeling back in horror away from Carmilla. 

Pg. 8: Carmilla asks why Janice isnt in college by now, and Janice says, Oh, you know. Were at war, the economy stinks. (basically saying she cant afford it). I dont know what war shes referring to, but I suspect it to be a reference to the Iraq War, (and not a reference to any war unique to the Marvel universe). 

Pg. 17: As Agent Khanata is explaining Monica Rappaccinis history with A.I.M., he says, Our best intelligence suggests that last months dioxin-based gas attack in Hong Kong was Monicas design. So there was a terrorist attack in Hong Kong last month. Just figured Id note it, probably not relevant. 

Pg. 18: Agent Khanata says, It took over four days to get this operation approved by the Public Director. We have less than a week before A.I.M. strikes. I take public director to mean Nick Fury. And the 4 days reference holds up pretty well for the timeframe fro this miniseries. 

Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #8 
Poison Tomorrow Pt. 2: Motherless Country 
Written by Fred Van Lente 
Drawn by Leonard Kirk 

Appearances: Carmilla Black, (aka Thasanee Rappaccini, aka Scorpion), Agent Derek Khanata, Agent Noriko Nagayoshi, Agent Ayna Sareva, Troy Goddard, New character: Monica Rappaccini 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-8: The day after pgs. 21-22 of last issue. Carmilla awakens on the plane as it lands in Madripoor. First, she heads to the orphanage where she was put up for adoption, to try and find more about her birth mother Monica. They deny her when she cant provide documentation that she was adopted. She hooks back up with Troy, and they spend the day together. She retires to her room to find Agent Khanata has left her a costume to wear, and they tell Carmilla that shell have to break into the orphanage if they are to find info on Monica Rappaccini. 

Pgs. 9-22: Its after midnight, and thus, its now the next day. Carmilla, (now in Scorpion costume) goes and breaks into the orphanage. She digs through old documents, and finds her file. She also finds a list of other kids birth certificates attached to her file. We later learn these other kids are the other children of A.I.M. agents adopted and infiltrated into the U.S.A. 

As she is leaving the orphanage, she runs across a cell holding young girls, sex slaves to be traded on the black market by the local crime gang. She frees them, (going against Khanatas orders) and gets attacked by the thugs who imprisoned the girls. Shes doing well, till one of them drugs her, knocking her out. The girls manage to escape, though. The thugs decide to dispose of Carmillas body. 

Cut to the next morning. There is a funeral parade for a member of the royal family who passed away. The crime gang had thrown Carmillas body inside the coffin of the deceased royalty, and just as they light the coffin on fire, (the parade ends in a funeral pyre) Carmilla wakes up, the flames all around her 

Meanwhile, Monica Rappaccini, (following her daughters trail) goes to Carmillas hotel and leaves a note for Carmilla to find 

References: Pg. 3: Troy says the flight to Madripoor has taken 21 hours. Which would make this the next day after the end of last issue, I think its safe to assume. 

Pg. 8: Khanata tells Carmilla to put on the Scorpion costume and says, Its almost midnight, and were on a tight schedule. So pgs. 9 onwards occur after midnight, on the next day. 

Pg. 9: Theres a full moon in the background as Scorpion is hopping from roof to roof. I tend to think in this instance, the full moon is for artistic purposes only. 

Pg. 12: As Khanata and his team of SHIELD agents are cross referencing the names Scorpion is coming across in the orphanage, Khanata tells his agents to get Homeland Security on the phone. Agent Sareva says, Homeland Security hates SHIELD sir. To which Khanata replies, Call Colonel Fury, then. He still has pull with I.N.S. 

This would seem to indicate Fury is still in charge of SHIELD at this point, (which is confirmed a couple issues from now). 

Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #9 
Poison Tomorrow Pt. 3: Identity Politics 
Written by Fred Van Lente 
Drawn by Dave Ross 

Appearances: Carmilla Black, (aka Thasanee Rappaccini, aka Scorpion), Agent Derek Khanata, Agent Noriko Nagayoshi, Agent Ayna Sareva, Troy Goddard, New Characters: Agent Ali Kokmen, Agent Sethi 

Pgs. 1-6: Same day as last issue. Picks up right where we left off. Carmilla breaks out of the coffin and is confronted by Madripoor police officers. Troy just happens to witness this tussle, and recognizes Carmilla. She escapes the police, and she and Troy make it back to her hotel. Troy concludes shes a superhero, (which Carmilla doesnt deny, deciding to use the idea as a cover story. Shes under orders to not let anyone know shes working for SHIELD). Carmilla receives the note from her mother, which reads, Observation Tower, Petrin Park, Prague 17:00 hours. Carmilla and Troy decide to fly to Prague. 

Pgs. 7-22: The next day: This is noted as being 18 hours later. Carmilla and Troy get off the plane in Prague, only to have Carmilla pulled aside by airport security. In truth, its Agent Khanata and the other SHIELD agents meeting up with her, to ask how she survived the incident in Madripoor. They also tell her to be careful around Troy, as they are wondering how hes able to fly around the world, (SHIELDs paying her expenses, but they dont know whos paying his). 

She meets back up with Troy, and they go to the Beer Hall. She asks him how hes able to fly around the world, and he suddenly gets defensive. They have an argument and split up. She is walking around town, when all of a sudden, she is confronted by SHIELD agents, (not Khanatas bunch, but a different group tracking a different A.I.M. terror cell in Europe). They move to arrest her, and she flees, (not understanding what is going on). She heads to the rendezvous point at 5:00, and is abducted by A.I.M. Khanata confronts the other SHIELD agents, and they get everything sorted out, but the SHIELD agents are unable to locate and save Carmilla, (having been duped by an A.I.M. switcheroo). 

References: 

Pg. 7: Carmilla narrates that Troy was excited about discovering that shes a superhero, and that the glow lasted all through the 18 hour flight to Prague. So pg. 7 is 18 hours after pg. 6. Since the note stated Carmilla is to meet her mother at 17:00 hours, (aka 5 pm), and the note didnt mention any specific day, I take it that the note meant for her to get there by 5 pm the next day. So I think this is the next day. One small problem with that: 

There is a bonus final page at the end of this comic book. It is made up to look like a web blog page run by Troy Goddard, as he describes his travels around the world. This Web page contains entries for two dates: June 10th and June 11th. 

The June 10th entry has Troy stating that he and Carmilla just arrived in Prague, and that Carmilla had a weird incident where she was taken and interrogated by airport security. 

The June 11th entry has Troy narrating that he had a fight with Carmilla, and was stood up, (she disappeared on him). That would seem to indicate a split in days between when they arrived in Prague, and when Carmilla and Troy fought and she was abducted by A.I.M. If there is a break at that point, then it occurs between Pgs. 7 and 8. 

But I have a different theory: Troys June 11th web blog is written concerning the events of yesterday, (meaning he had the argument and split up with Troy yesterday, and hes writing about it today). And his June 10 post about the airport incident was written before the fight and split up occurred that day. If anyone has a better theory, Id love to hear it. 

Also, Carmilla is wearing a skirt in the scenes in Prague. This would confirm the summer placement of the web blog. 

Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #10 
Poison Tomorrow Pt. 4: Gone Native 
Written by Fred Van Lente 
Drawn by Leonard Kirk 

Appearances: Carmilla Black, (aka Thasanee Rappaccini, aka Scorpion), Agent Derek Khanata, Agent Noriko Nagayoshi, Agent Ayna Sareva, Troy Goddard, Nick Fury, New Characters: Lars, Dr. Anish Rao. In flashback: Monica Rappaccini, Timothy and Julia Black 

Synopsis: Probably the next day after the end of last issue. Carmilla wakes up, (she was drugged) to find herself on an A.I.M transport that has just landed in the Sudan. She is greeted by Lars, an A.I.M. agent who gives her a tour of the local A.I.M. base. To prove her loyalty, Lars demands she go and kill some Sudanese mercenaries that have been raiding A.I.M. supply convoys. 

She heads off to the mercenaries outpost, and comes up with a plan to get the thugs to flee the camp and to blow up the place without taking lives, (shes trying to fool A.I.M. without becoming a cold blooded killer). Unfortunately, the plan goes wrong when one of the mercenaries accidentally sets off a missile of mustard gas, killing all the mercs, (but not her). 

Blaming herself for the loss of life, she calls up Troy on a cell phone, (Troys still in Prague) and says shes going away forever. She hangs up on Troy, just as Lars and the other A.I.M. agents come and retrieve her. They take her back to base and let her watch a video taped 19 years ago showing a pregnant Monica Rappaccini hosting an A.I.M. meeting. Monica says she is going to let Timothy and Julia Black, (Carmillas adopted parents) adopt her baby and sneak her into the U.S.A. Yes, it turns out Carmillas adopted parents are deep cover A.I.M. agents. Lars says it was SHIELD that killed Carmillas adopted parents, not A.I.M. 

Meanwhile, back at the Helicarrier, Agent Khanata has a meeting with Col. Fury, while Agents Nagayoshi and Sareva do a little more digging in regards to Carmillas history. A Dr. Anish Rao calls up and gives them the results of a blood sample they took from Carmilla: It seems Carmilla has been genetically engineered to survive biological, chemical, and radiological attacks, (thats how she survived the mustard gas). Nagayoshi and Sareva from there do a little more digging and deduce that Carmillas adopted parents were A.I.M. agents. Khanata says that Col. Fury now considers Carmilla an A.I.M. friendly, and has instructed that Carmilla be liquidated. 

References: 

Pg. 16: When Carmilla talks to Troy on the phone, Troy is mad at her for having ditched him, and says, Whatd you have to do, find a phone booth? Get your spandex waxed? Were the Avengers Assembling? 

I think this just a funny line, not a real clue one way or the other as to whether the Avengers are still around at this point. But I figured Id note it. 

Pg. 20: The flashback video showing Monica, Tim, and Julia at an A.I.M. meeting is noted as having occurred 19 years ago. The video occurs in panels 1, 3, and 4, (out of 6). 

Pg. 22: Agent Khanata notes that theyve received Intel that Scorpion attacked a Sudanese militia outpost at 0400 GMT. 0400 is 4 oclock in the morning, and GMT is Greenwich Mean Time, (the time in England, where the time zones around the world start/stop). Not sure what time that would make it in Sudan though. Im just content to make this issue occur the next day after last issue. 

And yes, we now have confirmation this issue that Nick Fury is still in charge of SHIELD in this arc. 

Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #11 
Poison Tomorrow Pt. 5: Wakers 
Written by Fred Van Lente 
Drawn by Leonard Kirk 

Appearances: Carmilla Black, (aka Thasanee Rappaccini, aka Scorpion), Agent Derek Khanata, Agent Noriko Nagayoshi, Agent Ayna Sareva, Troy Goddard, Nick Fury, Lars, New characters: Admiral Goddard, (Troys father), Abu-Jamal Rodriguez, (hes one of the A.I.M. zombies). In flashback: Carmilla Black, Timothy and Julia Black, Monica Rappaccini, Betty (shes another one of the A.I.M. zombies). 

Synopsis: This issue could be the next day after last issue, or could potentially be a few days later. Its vague. 

Pgs. 1-7: Troy is still in Prague, and wants to help Carmilla. He calls up his father, (we dont learn his name, the story just calls him Admiral Goddard) the owner of Goddard Aerospace, (a defense contractor). This is how he can afford to fly all over the world: cause his fathers rich. But Troy and his father have had a falling out. Troy asks his father to trace the cell phone call that Carmilla called him from last issue, and his father agrees to do it if Troy will eventually come home. 

Carmilla and Lars arrive in the U.S.A. just outside of Washington D.C. where they meet up with other young A.I.M. agents like Carmilla, whom we are told were also genetically engineered. Lars secretly tells other A.I.M. agents to keep an eye on Troy back in Prague, (they know Carmilla has been talking to him). 

Pg. 8-22: This is the next day. 

Carmilla is informed what the A.I.M terror cells plan is: They are to launch a decoy attack on the nearby World Bank Headquarters. This event will send the Vice President, (Dick Cheney) into hiding at his undisclosed location, (they know the location thanks to their Intel). They will then kidnap the secret subway car the V.P. takes and when it arrives at its location, they will set off a biological virus bomb, killing everyone in the area and infecting a good portion of Maryland, (the A.I.M. agents wont be killed as they are immune). 

Carmilla slips out when she thinks the other A.I.M. agents arent looking. She calls up Troy, to warn him that a terror attack is about to take place. Troy surprises her by arriving on the scene in person, explaining he managed to track her down by tracing the cell phone shes carrying on her. 

Agents Khanata and the rest of his team are up above on a rooftop, about ready to snipe Carmilla, when they are attacked by the A.I.M. agents that have been following Troy around. Just then, Lars appears and kidnaps Troy, holding a gun to his head. Carmilla goes and checks on Khanata, (who was wounded in the attack by A.I.M. agents). An explosion happens at the nearby World Bank Headquarters, and Carmilla realizes its the decoy attack underway. She and Khanata put aside their questions they have about each others motivations and decide theyve got to stop the A.I.M. attack. 

References: Lots of flashbacks in this issue: 

Pg. 1, panel 2: As Troy contemplates calling up his father to ask for help, he watches video footage of him and Carmilla which he must have taped while in Madripoor. Its just video footage of the two of them laughing it up and having a good time. I would place this flashback between pgs. 6 and 7 of issue #8. Pgs. 7 and 8 have Carmilla and Troy heading back to the hotel after a day of exploring Madripoor tourist attractions. 

Pg. 4, panel 5: FB- Carmilla thinks back to a time when she was a little girl during the 1996 elections, she asked her adopted father (Timothy Black) who he was going to vote for, and he said hes not voting, that either choice for president is a corporate mouthpiece. 

Pg. 4, panel 6: FB- Carmilla thinks back to a time when her adopted mother, (Julia Black) comforted her after she failed a cheerleader try out. Julia tells her that she has a greater destiny awaiting her than cheerleading 

Carmilla is realizing the clues were there all along that her adopted parents were A.I.M. agents. 

Pg. 6, panel 3: FB- Carmillas fellow A.I.M. agents explain how they were recruited: When they were 16 years old, they found ourselves compelled to travel to the nearest bio-haven. From there, they began training as A.I.M. agents. This panel shows one of the agents, (a blond haired girl named Betty) her eyes glowing in the middle of high school class, as she suddenly feels the urge to head to the nearest A.I.M. base. 

Pg. 6, panel 4: FB- This panel shows these A.I.M. teenagers training in an A.I.M. base, practicing combat maneuvers. 

Carmilla concludes that these other teenagers mustve become A.I.M. zombies around the same time she accidentally killed her boyfriend at the high school prom. Her toxin absorption powers nullified the command to head to the nearest A.I.M. base. So that places the flashbacks showing Betty in High School around the same time as the incident where Carmilla killed her boyfriend. 

Pgs. 9 and 10: Im not sure if this counts or not: Carmilla learns of their attack plan through a pre-coded hallucinogen, which functions somewhat like a video taped message. Through the hallucinogen, Carmilla sees her mother Monica standing before her, explaining what the attack plan is. If you count this narrative by Monica as a flashback, then it occurs over pgs. 9 and 10, and panel 1 of pg. 11. Its probably a recent tape recording, (not something taped 19 years ago) seeing as Monica explains how theyve found out about Dick Cheneys secret undisclosed location. 

Pg. 14: Troy tells Carmilla how he used his dads satellite tracking system to trace the cell phone she was using, and says, Ive been following you for the past 24 hours. That means a day has passed since pgs. 1-7 of this issue. 

Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #12 
Poison Tomorrow Pt. 6: 
Written by Fred Van Lente 
Drawn by Leonard Kirk 

Appearances: Carmilla Black, (aka Thasanee Rappaccini, aka Scorpion), Agent Derek Khanata, Agent Noriko Nagayoshi, Agent Ayna Sareva, Troy Goddard, Monica Rappaccini, Nick Fury, Lars, New Characters: Vice President Dick Cheney. 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-19(p1-3): Continues right from where we left off at the end of last issue. The decoy attack is under way, and so the Secret Service takes the Vice President, (yes, its Dick Cheney), into the subway system below D.C. and takes him to the Undisclosed Location. Monica Rappaccini, Lars, and the other zombie A.I.M. agents hijack the subway train, and lock Dick Cheney and Troy Goddard up. 

Carmilla leaps into action, stealing a motorcycle and riding it down into the subway system. She catches up with subway train and defeats most of the A.I.M. agents before the train arrives at its location, (the USAMRIID, where A.I.M. hopes to set off their biological bomb). She uses her powers to absorb the bacteria bomb the A.I.M. agents let off, (saving Dick Cheney and Troy), and before Lars can kill her, Monica realizes this is her daughter fighting against them, and she kills Lars for not telling her the truth about her daughter. 

Carmilla asks why Monica killed her parents, and Monica says she didnt. And since SHIELD didnt kill her parents, the whole who killed Carmillas adopted parents plot is put off for a sequel. The U.S. army shows up, cutting short Monica and Carmillas reunion, and Monica teleports away, and Carmilla flees before the army can detain her. 

Pgs. 19(p4-5)  20: Cut to what may be a few days later. Agents Khanata, Sareva, and Nagayoshi are standing before Nick Fury, who is mad at the way theyve handled the operation. Khanata reports that Scorpion did save the day, and that her cover story about being a superhero, (when in truth shes a spy under their control) would make for a great addition to SHIELDs forces. Fury decides Khanata and company did a good job after all. Khanata and the others still show wounds from the battle with A.I.M. 

Pgs. 21-22: Cut to what may be days later. Troy and Carmilla are enjoying a fancy dinner somewhere along the Mediterranean Sea, when she gets a call from Agent Khanata that its time for action. She changes into costume and leaps into battle, jumping into a nearby A.I.M. hideout to do battle. This is Scorpions new status quo: a SHIELD agent who poses as a superhero, and battles A.I.M. and other terror cells, (while trying to track down her mother). She narrates that she has found out who she really is: Im a hero. 

References: 

Weve seen plenty of appearances by George W. Bush in Marvel comics, but am I correct in that this is the first time that Dick Cheneys appeared? Outside of his appearances in Supreme Power that is, (but thats a different universe). 

Pg. 22: I should note, Agent Sareva still has a bandage on her head from the A.I.M. battle, so this cant be too long after the battle at the start of this issue. 

Thats it for now. Next Ill do a review for Hulk vol. 3 #87, (it wont take long). After that, Daredevil vs. Punisher.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 07:51 am    
By JD

I just got the digest reprinting this arc, and I've noticed that they've included the Madripoor ad brochure from #8 and the weblog page from #9 at their natural places, suggesting that those may be additionnal story pages for these issues. 

Also, this story seems to be ignoring the events of W2 98 (not that I can blame them, since those seemed horribly gratuitous to me when I read it) where nearly all of Wolverine's Madripoor supporting cast was slaughtered. 

In the actual comic pages of #8, there is a background reference to General Coy still in operation and in control of the orphanage/slave trade, even though he was killed in W2 98. 
In the Madripoor ad brochure in this same issue, there is an entry referencing the Princess Bar and O'Donnell still operating it, even though he was killed (and the Bar trashed) in W2 98 too. 

I think the solution is that they both "got better", and Logan funded the reconstruction of the Princess Bar at some point. 

My point being : Coy deserves a BTS for #8, doesn't he ?

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 11:43 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I don't see how we can take that "Ad brochure" as anything more than "flavor text", thrown in for long time readers who know Wolverine's history. 

The brochure itself says, "Run by a mysterious Englishman by the name of O'Donnell, this smoky Lowtown dive wouldn't be worth note if it didn't have a reputation for hosting the best impromptu bar fights in the city. Local rumor has it that if O'Donnell's silent partner, a short, hairy figure known as "Patch" is slighted in any way, the stools and tables are kicked back for a memorable dust-up faster than you can say "SNIKT!"" 

What type of brochure would have THAT in it?!? 

As for the General Coy reference, yes, the way it reads is if he's still alive. I have no idea how to resolve that, (we don't actually see the character in this storyline). Maybe the thugs were uninformed of his demise? Or maybe he indeed "got better"? 

Quote: 
>>>
My point being : Coy deserves a BTS for #8, doesn't he ? 
<<<


I'd rather have better proof that he's alive first...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 01:06 pm    
By JD

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
What type of brochure would have THAT in it?!? 
<<<

Looking at it more carefully, I note this is from the Madripoor section of the "Globo-Hipster's Guide", not an ad brochure. Having read some of this kind of "traveller's guide", the tone and kind of information is about right. Especially if the targeted audience is the "Globo-Hipster". 


Quote: 
>>>
Or maybe he indeed "got better"? 
<<<

That's what I think. Looking back at W2 #98, Coy is shot in the back by Tyger Tyger. Logan does not have time to check the body, so it's not that much of a stretch to think he survived. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'd rather have better proof that he's alive first... 
<<<

What about his appearance in S-M #73-74, placed after his "death" in W2 #98 in his chronology ? 

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 02:30 pm    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
Or maybe he indeed "got better"? 
<<<

That's what I think. Looking back at W2 #98, Coy is shot in the back by Tyger Tyger. Logan does not have time to check the body, so it's not that much of a stretch to think he survived. 

Tai was killed off-panel in that issue and Claremont brought him back, if that means anything. 

As far as this story goes, there's also hints that Prince Baran - or certainly a blood heir of his if not him - is ruling Madripoor in this arc.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 10:53 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
What about his appearance in S-M #73-74, placed after his "death" in W2 #98 in his chronology ?  
<<<

Well, why didn't you bring that up sooner?!?  It would appear the whole "he got better" theory is correct...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 11:43 pm    
By JD

Well, I hadn't thought to check his chronology before you asked for more proof. It's not as if I had ever read those end-of-clone-saga Howard Mackie comics 

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2005 12:16 am    
By Col_Fury

This is 98.3% off topic, but I was surprised at how much I enjoyed these issues. I wasn't thrilled with the first six and was considering dropping the book, because I wasn't expecting much more from the next batch. I'm glad that I picked them up. 

I'm really liking Khanata. The bit where he was complaining about not being able to get a flying car was the part that sealed it for me. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2005 05:21 am    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
This is 98.3% off topic, but I was surprised at how much I enjoyed these issues. I wasn't thrilled with the first six and was considering dropping the book, because I wasn't expecting much more from the next batch. I'm glad that I picked them up.  
<<<

Agreed (except for the buying-the-Arana-issues part). The story was great. 

The SHIELD Helicarrier: the most expensive buck-passing excercise in history 

			*	*	*

Thread 63

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 12:41 am    Post subject: Punisher: Silent Night
By Col_Fury

Punisher: Silent Night #1 
W: Andy Diggle 
D: Kyle Hotz 
Published: February, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Timothy 'Tiny Tim Torino, Gerardo Falsetti, Junior Calvani. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: One night in New York 
The Punisher watches some criminals through the scope on his mutli-role weapon. 
Pg4pn1: Same night in New York 
The Punisher thinks. 
Pg4pn2: FB-seven years ago, San Quentin, California 
Junior Calvanis dad is killed three days after he arrives in San Quentin prison. 
Pg4pn3: FB-shortly after 
Calvanis funeral; Junior Calvani & Gerardo Falsetti are there. 
Pg4pn4: FB-shortly after that 
Gerardo, who was Calvanis Consigliere, is seen in his office after taking over the Calvani family business. 
Pg5-pg9: Picking up where pg4pn1 left off 
The punisher kills two of the three criminals, interrogates the third, then kills him. 
Pg10-pg12: A mall in New York, almost Christmas 
The Punisher interrogates Tiny Tim Torino, whos working as a mall Santa. 
Pg13pn1-pn2: FB-upstate New York, last month 
Gerardo hires Tiny Tim to be a Santa for a party hes going to have for some orphans on Christmas Eve. 
Pg13pn3-pg14: Picking up where pg12 left off 
The Punisher drags Tiny Tim away. 
Pg15-pg23: Saint Nicholas Orphanage, Christmas Eve 
Gerardo and a priest get ready for the party, while the Punisher and Tiny Tim, dressed as Santas, arrive on a sleigh pulled by reindeer. They meet the kids and the Punisher makes them build snowmen. Later at dinner, the Punisher punches Gerardo in the face in front of the kids. 
Pg24: outside the orphanage 
Junior Calvani and a team get ready to kill Gerardo at midnight! 
Pg25: the orphanage 
No longer dressed as Santa, the Punisher puts the priest and kids in the church so they dont get caught in the cross-fire. 
Pg26-pg33: Christmas day 
Now that its midnight, Junior attacks! The Punisher takes out the team with some explosives that he hid in the snowmen,(the ones the kids built) but Junior gets away in a car. So, the Punisher follows in the sleigh, catches him and kills him. 
Pg34-pg35: Back at the orphanage 
Tiny Tim tries to extort money from Gerardo, but Gerardo kills him instead. As he tries to escape, the Punisher kills Gerardo. 
Pg36: Dawn 
The priest and kids find Gerardos body. 

References: 
A full moon is seen over New York on pg1. 

There are brown leaves on trees during the funeral FlashBack. 

Tiny Tims FlashBack to last month is most likely the weekend of Thanksgiving. 

When talking with the Punisher, Tiny Tim mentions that its almost Christmas. Most likely, its a day or two before, but not necessarily. It could happen anytime in December, whenver the full moon is, I guess. 

The Punisher has been watching the three guys for most of the night, so when he visits Tiny Tim, its the next day during open mall hours. 

Pg4pn2: Seven years ago 
Pg4pn3: a few days later, the funeral 
Pg4pn4: shortly after that 
Pg13pn1-pn2: the Saturday after Thanksgiving 
Pg1-pg4pn1: December 21?, full moon 
Pg5-pg9: December 21?, full moon 
Pg10-pg12: December 22? 
Pg13pn3-pg14: December 22? 
Pg15-pg25: December 24 
Pg26-pg36: December 25 

By sheer coincidence, I was listening to my Johnny Cash Live at San Quentin Prison album while analyzing this, and Juniors dad was killed in San Quentin in this issue. Amazing!(great album, by the way. Every bit as good as Johnny Cash Live at Folsom Prison) 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2005 08:12 am
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Talk about quick turnaround! Thanks, Col_Fury. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 64

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:28 pm    Post subject: M/SPT 1 & Red Wolf 1-9
By Dhall

Just beacuse these (mostly)aren't in the MCP and I enjoy adding obscure comics..... 
Dave 


Marvel Spotlight 1-FB 

Red Wolf II /Johnny Wakely 
Hacker 
Wakely, Martin 
Wakely, Emma 
Sabre, Brett (was also apparently in Western Gunfighters 1) 
Burning Tree 
Lobo 
Owayodata 

Buckskin 
Catfish 
Brennan, Molly 
Spotted Skin (horse) 


Red Wolf IIs origin: He is a descendant of the original Owayodata, the Wolf Spirit. 
His parents were killed by white men, and he was adopted by a white couple. 
Then his adopted parents were murdered by renegade Indians. 
He went to Fort Rango to be an army scout. Then he found the tomb of the original 
Red Wolf. In the tomb, he met Lobo, and he met Owayodata, the original Red Wolf as an apparition. Owayodata told him to become Red Wolf, and take up his mission. 


Note: The Owayodata, the Wolf Spirit, made his ancestor, the first red wolf, the 
Mightiest warrior of all 

Marvel Spotlight 1 

Red Wolf II / Johnny Wakely 
Buffalo Dog 
Long Knife 
Fat Horse 
Buckskin 
Catfish 
Burning Tree 
Spotted Skin (horse) 


Lobo 

Red Wolf prevents a war between the Indians and the soldiers, by exposing 
Burning Trees plan to start the war. 


Red Wolf 1 

Red Wolf II/ Johnny Wakely 
Lobo I 
Running Buck 
Simpson, Ante 
Simpson, Clint 
Major Sabre 
Gray Fox 
Standing Bear 
Rife Hacker 
Judge Garner, David P. 
Brennan, Molly 
Spotted Skin (horse) 


Some ranchers kill several Indians. Owayodata brings one of them to justice, but 
The ranchers kidnap the only witness. Owayodata frees him. The Judge will not accept the word of an Indian witness, and frees the killer. 

Red Wolf 2 

Red Wolf II 
Lobo 
Brennan, Molly 
Hacker, Rafe 
Major Brett, Sabre 
Spotted Skin (horse) 



Red Wolf saves Molly Brennans life by rescuing her from some outlaws, and a runaway horse. Molly has overheard the outlaws talk about robbing a stage filled with dynamite. Then to hide her, he has Molly dress like an Cheyenne maiden, and hides her with a local tribe. He then goes to Fort Rango to get information on the outlaws. Major Sabre tells him that, according to records, there is no dynamite on the stage, thus no reason to send out a patrol. However, it turns out that there is dynamite, as part of the mining equipment on the coach. The outlaws attempt to rob it, but Red Wolf and Lobo foil their plans. 

Red Wolf 3 

Red Wolf II 
Lobo 

Spotted Skin (horse) 

Darby, John 
Brazos 
Warner, Bess 
Sabre, Brett Colonel 
Brennan, Molly 
Owayodata 
Brannigan, Jim Federal Marshall 

A group of white men, attack an Indian village, but Red Wolf drives them off. Then he meets a white man with amnesia, and helps him. Then Red Wolf changes back to his civilian identity, to go back to Fort Rango. There he meets John Darby, the leader of the gang who attacked the village. Colonel Sabre does not believe their story, and he orders Johnny to follow them. They go back to the village, and put poison into the water. They catch Red Wolf, and tie him to his horse, The horse drags him, but Lobo comes to the rescue. He goes to commune with the spirit Owayodata, who tells him that he must stop Darby. Red Wolf, again meets the stranger he helped out, who turns out to be a Federal Marshall. They team up to stop Darby. 

Red Wolf 4 

Red Wolf II 
Lobo 
Man Bear/Ursa 
Elkhorn 
Fawn 
Hacker, Rafe 
Spotted Skin (horse) 
Sabre, Brett Colonel 
Owayadata 
Captain Osborne 
Eagle Plume 
Brennan, Molly 


Red Wolf fights Ursa, the Man Bear. Then he prevents a war between the Pony Riders and Indians. 

Rd Wolf 4-FB 
Man Bear 

Man Bears origin 

Red Wolf 5 

Red Wolf II 
Fast John Silver 
Spotted Skin (horse) 
Bradley, Alvah 
Brennan, Molly 
Sabre, Brett Colonel 
Long Spear 
Lobo 
Owayodata (appears as a vision) 

Fast John shoots Red Wolf, who does not die, because of his powers. However he plays dead. Bradley wishes to steal some Cheyenne land. This stirs up the Cheyenne, and they attack a white mans farm. Red Wolf manages to stop them. Then he takes some twigs coated with phosphorus to use to make Bradleys men think they are being attacked by ghosts. Red Wolf thwarts Bradleys plot, and has him and Silver arrested. 


Red Wolf 5-FB 

Bradley, Alvah 
Silver, Fast John 
Alvah Bradley hires Fast John Silver to kill Red Wolf 


Red Wolf 6 

Red Wolf 
Devil Mask/ White Bow 
Brett, Sabre Colonel 
Spotted Skin (horse) 
Owayodata 
Fawn 
Elk Hunter 
Standing Horse 

Red Wolf faces a strange glowing rider, who turns out to be White Bow of the Cheyenne. Red Wolf unmasks him, and hands him over to the tribe. 


Red Wolf 7 

The following issues are set in modern chronology. 

Red Wolf III 
Lobo II 
Eagle Plume II 
Harper, Rhonda 
Owayodata 

Red Wolf III saves a girls life, and fights hoodlums. Then he talks to Owayodata, who gives him the coup stick. 

Flashback: The origin of Red Wolf II (from Marvel Spotlight 1) 

Flashback 2: Red Wolf II fights Arapahos who have killed a prospector. 
Red Wolf II 

Red Wolf 8 

Red Wolf III 
Lobo II 
King Cycle 
Tomahawk, Jill 
Owayodata (appears as a vision) 


Red Wolf III fights a motorcycle gang, with the help of policewoman Jill Tomahawk and Lobo. 

Red Wolf 9 

Red Wolf III 
Tomahawk, Jill 
Bickford, Clayton 
Lobo II 

Hoods, hired by movie star Clayton Bickford attempt to kill Jill. Red Wolf and Lobo fight them. 

**BRENNAN, MOLLY (New listing) 
M/SPT 1-FB 
RW 1 
RW 2 
RW 3 
RW 4 
RW 5 

Devil Mask/ White Bow (New listing) 
RW 6 

FAWN (New listing) 
RW 4 
RW 6 

**HACKER, RAFE (New listing) 
RW 1 
RW 2 
RW 4 

** LOBO I (New listing) 
M/SPT 1-FB 
M/SPT 1 
RW 1 
RW 2 
RW 3 
RW 4 
RW 5 

LOBO (Should be Lobo II) 
A 80 
A 81 
RW 7 
** RW 8 
** RW 9 
M/CHL 3 

MAN BEAR/URSA (New listing) 
RW 4-FB 
RW 4 

OWAYODATA 
** M/SPT 1-FB 
**RW 3 
**RW 4 
**RW 5 
RW 6 
{A 80-FB} 
**RW 7 
**RW 8 
M/CP 15 
DRSTR3 25 

RED WOLF II/ JOHNNY WAKELY (adopted name should be added to his listing) 
**M/SPT 1-FB 
M/SPT 1 
**RW 1 
**RW 2 
**RW 3 
**RW 4 
**RW 5 
**RW 6 
**RW 7-FB 

RED WOLF III/WILL TALLTREES 
M/CP 15/4-FB 
{A 80-FB} 
DD 258-FB 
A 80-FB 
A 80 
A 81 
RW 7 
**RW 8 
**RW 9 
M/CHL 3 

**SABRE, BRETT COLONEL (New listing) 
M/SPT 1-FB 
RW 1 
RW 2 
RW 3 
RW 4 
RW 5 
RW 6 

**SPOTTED SKIN (New listing) 
M/SPT 1-FB 
RW 1 
RW 2 
RW 3 
RW 4 
RW 5 
RW 6 

**TOMAHAWK, JILL (New listing) 
RW 8 
RW 9

			*	*	*

Thread 65

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 04:27 pm    Post subject: Call for analyses -- upcoming stories
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'd like to call for volunteers to analyze the following stories, which are either underway and haven't concluded or are expected to begin in the next few months. I don't plan to collect these stories myself, so I'd appreciate any help that my fellow chronologists can provide. Parentheses indicate volunteers to date. 

Amazing Fantasy v3 #15 (Kevin) 
Amazing Fantasy v3 #16-20 
Arana #7-12 (Kevin) 
Ares #1-5 
Black Panther v4 #10-13 (Col_Fury) 
Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her #1-6 (Kevin) 
Books of Doom #1-6 
Book of Lost Souls #1-3 (canonical?) 
Captain Universe five-issue set 
Daredevil v2 #76-81 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Father #3-6 (Kevin) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Doc Samson v2 #1-5 
Drax the Destroyer #1-4 (JLH) 
Fantastic Four/Iron Man: Big in Japan #1-4 (Sean K.) 
Ghost Rider v4 #1-6 (JLH) 
Giant-Size Invaders #2 (JLH) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #88-91 (Kevin) 
Marvel Holiday Special 2005 
Marvel Zombies #1-5 
New Warriors v3 #1-6 
Nextwave #1-12 
Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1-4+ (Russ) 
Nightcrawler #12 
Punisher v7 #25-30 (Kevin) 
Punisher: Silent Night #1 
Punisher: The Tyger (JLH) 
Punisher vs. Bullseye #1-5 
Runaways v2 #9-12 
Sable & Fortune #1-6 
Sentinel v2 #1-5 
Sentinel Squad O*N*E #1-5 
Spider-Woman: Origin #1-6 
Thor: Blood Oath #1-6 
Wolverine v3 #36-40 (Col_Fury) 
X-Men and Power Pack #1-4 
X-Men: Colossus  Bloodline #1-5 (Paul O.) 
X-Men: Kitty Pryde  Shadow & Flame #1-6 (Paul O.) 

If folks want to know what I am collecting, drop me a line. As always, thanks to all who post on this forum!
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 27 Nov 2005 05:33 pm; edited 18 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 04:41 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Take my name off Spider-Man: House of M, please. I'm not planning to get it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 05:40 pm    
By shandrakor

I've got Spidey HoM, so I'll take that.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Darien. I've edited the post.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*	

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:28 pm    
By Col_Fury

Oh, that Black Panther... I can analyze Black Panther v4 10-13. I'm assuming that you have issues 8 & 9? 

I bought them, so I might as well do Marvel Nemesis: the Imperfects. There may be others, but I want to get some more M/CP done before I commit to anything else.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 09:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for volunteering, Col_Fury. Yes, I've got BP4 8-9 covered.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 04:30 am   
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Giant-Size Invaders #2 

Punisher: The Tyger 
<<<

In addition to the Drax and GR series, I can do these two.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 06:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JLH. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 09:52 pm    
By lkseitz

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Monsters: Devil Dinosaur 
<<<

Ooh, ooh! Pick me! Pick me!
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2005 06:04 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Consider yourself picked, Lee. Thanks. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2005 01:00 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Daredevil: Father #3-5 (Kevin) 
<<<

The latest Marvel solicits had this to say : 
"The story so big, so emotional, and so personal has now expanded to 
six issues!" 

If nobody else wants it, I can try to cover Wolverine v3 #33-35, since I'm already trying to puzzle together the HoM global chronology. 
Most of it is irrelevant anyway, since it is basically two characters discussing events that never actually happened, between the pages of HOM #3.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2005 03:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JD wrote: 
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Daredevil: Father #3-5 (Kevin) 
<<<

The latest Marvel solicits had this to say : 
"The story so big, so emotional, and so personal has now expanded to 
six issues!" 
<<<

See also: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1648 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 11:10 pm    
By lkseitz

Well if no one else is going to volunteer, I guess I'll take Gravity #1-5. Not quite sure when I'll get to it, though. If I don't get it done this weekend, it might be several weeks before I get a chance. Since it's almost all new characters, hopefully I can keep it brief.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2005 06:53 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Great. Thanks, Lee.  

Looks like I need to move this assignment, along with a few others, over to the call for completed stories.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 09:21 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Updated the list, removing completed stories and adding newly announced upcoming stories.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 12:23 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Runaways v2 #9-14 
<<<

I was under the impression that the current arc was only four issue long. After all, it would be dreadfully inconvenient to have to split it into two digests, wouldn't it ? 

After checking January's solicitations, for Runaways v2 #12 : 
"Its the stunning conclusion to East Coast/West Coast [...] !"

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 03:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, the new Marvel Previews notes RUN2 12 as a "conclusion." Not sure where I got the 14 from. I'll change it. (I'm not sure why the solicitations note story arc chapters for some titles and not for others.) Thanks, JD.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 10:42 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Go ahead and put me down for Amazing Fantasy #15, Paul. But you should know that that appears to be a good stopping point for me. I'm not certain if I want to continue collecting the title after that point, (and I won't be doing a review for the next arc, whether I continue buying or not). I'm simply not that big of a fan of Death's Head, and thus feel that someone else out there could provide a better analysis than I could for issues #16-20.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 04:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'm simply not that big of a fan of Death's Head, and thus feel that someone else out there could provide a better analysis than I could for issues #16-20. 
<<<

Totally understandable, Kevin. Thanks for taking on the first 15 issues!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2005 11:43 pm    
By Col_Fury

Wolverine 36-40 will supposedly deal with Logans past, now that he remembers it. Having said that, since I own most of his appearances, I can do these issues. I'm probably going to regret this...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Dec 2005 08:50 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Captain Universe five-issue set  
<<<

Okay, after hearing that the new Scorpion is featured in these issues, I went and picked them up. And it turns out these issues feature major continuity snipets in regards to Hulk, Daredevil, and Scorpion, (three characters I'm following closely). So I'll go ahead and volunteer to handle the analysis for these issues, Paul. 

Sheesh, Hulk and Daredevil are really becoming prominently featured as of late... 

Also, these issues need to be moved to the "completed" thread, (the last issue came out this week). 

My review for H3 87 will be up tomorrow, and I'm working on DD vs. Punisher...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Dec 2005 10:28 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for volunteering, Kevin. There are a few other things that need to be moved from "future" to "completed," but I'll wait a few days to do a new update to the lists and allow those few pending analyses to come in.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Dec 2005 10:54 am    
By JD

As I've already taken over the Runaways vol 2 analyses, i volonteer for continuing doing it for issues #9-12.

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Posted: 11 Dec 2005 09:04 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Cool. Thanks, JD!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Dec 2005 10:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
And to bring this back to topic: 
Hey Paul! Now that it's out, I can do Nightcrawler 12. Go ahead and give me Punisher: Silent Night, and while we're at it, I can do Thor: Blood Oath 1-6. Nightcrawler 12 may get done this week if we're lucky. 
<<<

Much appreciated, Col_Fury! I almost missed your volunteering amidst the big discussion about Power Pack. Um...anyone volunteering to do an analysis of that? It seems we have a discussion centering around a non-existent analysis!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Dec 2005 11:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I sort of backhand-volunteered a few posts ago. I've got the issues with me at work and I'll see what I can whip up tomorrow. 

I'm going to try to bifurcate the Power Pack bits off into their own thread now... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 03:32 am 
By Col_Fury

Marvel Zombies #1 is out, and it picks up directly where it left off in Ultimate FF. It's not in the Ultimate Universe, but it's not in 616, either. Unless it's going to cross over with the regular Marvel Universe in the next four issues(which I doubt), I think you can safely take this off the list.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 19 Dec 2005 10:32 pm    
By Jason Doty

I finished the Captain Universe Series, If you want I'll tackle New Warriors 1-6, the Holiday Special, as well as GLX?

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 06:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have the GLX-Mas Special covered, but by all means, you're welcome to New Warriors. Thanks, Jason! 

I'm still holding off on posting new calls for analyses, as it seems that several are coming in and I'd just as soon not post those. All completed stories are now assigned, except for Guardians #6.
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Paul B.

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Thread 66

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 06:25 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 Issue #87
By Kevin W.
Director

Hulk vol. 3 Issue #87 
Awakening 
Written by Peter David 
Drawn by Adam Kubert 

The story to date: This stand alone story is actually somewhat of an epilogue to the House of M issues, (#83-86). In those issues, Banner/Hulk in the alternate world had found peace living with a tribe of Aborigines in Australia. Thanks to a series of incidents, Banner/Hulk ended up being the leader of Australia, with Monica Rappaccini, (from AF2 #7-12) ruling by his side, (though the two distrust each other). Now they wake up to a post HoM world. 

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk, Scorpion II/Carmilla Black/Thasanee Rappaccini, Monica Rappaccini, Derek Khanata, Ayna Sareva 

Synopsis: This is the morning of M-Day, (as it is referred to in the X books). Monica and Bruce wake up in bed together, inside the mansion of Jarrah Brandis, the richest man in Sydney, and not remembering how they got there. Police officers break in to arrest them, (I guess the security alarms were tripped somehow). Banner changes into the Hulk and scares off the cops. He breaks down a wall and starts to jump away, when he is confronted by an astral image of the aborigine chieftain, (the same one from the House of M issues). The Chieftain convinces the Hulk to come visit him in the Outback. Hulk grabs Monica and jumps off with her in tow. 

A short time later, at SHIELD headquarters, Agents Khanata and Sareva, along with Scorpion II, are looking over video footage of the Hulk leaping away from the mansion, with Monica in his arms. Scorpion decides to go to Australia to capture her mother. 

Hulk transforms back to Banner, and meets up with the Chieftain. The Chieftain says he remembers what life was like in the House of M world, (he calls it the Dreamtime, which he says his people are always a part of). He offers Banner a place in his tribe. Banner, the Chieftain, and Monica all head off to the tribal grounds. 

Cut to that night. Banner tells Monica in private hes thinking of staying with the Aborigines, but Monica thinks its a foolish idea, and that Banner needs to stop denying who he truly is. Just then, Scorpion II arrives, knocking Banner out momentarily with her poison stinger. She says she was able to find Monica by tracing Bruces gamma radiation signature. Shes about to apprehend Monica, when Banner transforms into the Hulk. The Hulk has a tantrum, and sets off a forest fire by spreading the flames from the Aborigines campfire. The flames spread, Monica and Carmilla are separated, and A.I.M. soldiers rescue Monica. 

Pgs. 21-22: The next morning. The flames have finally died, and the forest is now a smoking ruin. Carmilla emerges from a cave, (which she ducked in to avoid the flames) and meets up with Banner. Banner says theres no reason to fight anymore, and that the Aborigines are gone from this place, and no longer want to have anything to do with him. Banner says hes decided to listen to the Hulk, (the Hulk always says he wants nothing more than to be left alone), and he decides thats what he is going to do: seek isolation, and have nothing more to do with the rest of mankind, (he sees the Aborigines rejecting him as his final failure at finding happiness). He and Carmilla go their separate ways. 

References: 

Pg. 3: Monica reminds Bruce that they had a one-night stand in college together. Banner then says that hes having Dj vu, and feels they had this conversation once before, (they did, in the House of M issues). 

Theres some guessing on the internet that Peter David came up with this one night stand concept to hint at the possibility that Banner is the father of Carmilla. Since Carmilla is 19 years old, that would put Banner as having been in college 20 years ago. 

Pg. 8: Agent Khanata says, Theres a lot of disorientation, worldwide. SHIELD is being flooded with contacts from confused agents who arent where they think theyre supposed to be. Theory is that its some sort of global brainwashing stunt that failed somehow. 

So lots of people woke up where they were at the end of the House of M world, not where they were just prior to the world burning to white. This differs from whats shown in other titles though, mind you, (in House of M itself, Logan and Emma woke up on the front lawn of the X mansion, when they were in Genosha). 

Moving on, Banners resolving to not have anything more to do with the rest of humanity leads directly into the next issue, wherein Banner lives like a hermit up in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness. That next issue is likely several months down the road, (judging by Banner having grown a full beard). This whole I must stay away from the rest of humanity matches the Banner on display in the Captain Universe: Hulk issue, but I dont know how well that lines up with the grand timeline. Wait and see, I guess. 

Thats it for now. Next up is either Daredevil vs. Punisher or Amazing Fantasy #13-14.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 18 Dec 2005 05:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

A belated thank you, Kevin. I missed this post at a point when my computer was giving me problems.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Dec 2005 10:19 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

No problem.  Did you get my Amazing Fantasy reviews? My review for the main story in AF2 #13 and 14, and my review for Daredevil vs. Punisher, I hope to have both up by the end of the year. *crosses fingers*
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 19 Dec 2005 09:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
This whole I must stay away from the rest of humanity matches the Banner on display in the Captain Universe: Hulk issue, but I dont know how well that lines up with the grand timeline. Wait and see, I guess.  
<<<

I think we've been talking about placing the Captain Universe issues before DD2 76-81, which would occur before HOM. For Hulk, CU:H would occur between H3 82 and 83. 

I see that Jason has posted an analysis of those CU issues...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 12:14 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I, for one, still have this nagging doubt that Nick Fury won't be back in charge of SHIELD Pre-HoM, (thus, allowing for such stories as "Murdock Papers" to occur pre-HoM), but if we have good luck on our side, then maybe that is how things will line up. If that's the case, then yes, it makes sense for Hulk to appear in CU:H between H3 82 and 83.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 06:17 am   
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, if Fury is still at large as of HOM, then such story arcs as FOES, HERCULES, M/TU3 7-13, IMPERFECTS, and NX:H would have to occur post-HOM. But that's a REAL problem, especially in the case of the mutant titles. The Hellions mini just can't occur post-HOM for obvious reasons, and it can't occur pre-A4 1, because of the X-Men's meeting with the Avengers in the Academy X tie-in. Of course, M/TU3 7-13 must occur prior to ROGUE3 7-12, given Sunfire's chronology, and ROGUE3 7-12 must occur before X 171, which is pre-HOM. 

As I've said, everything hinges on upcoming Avengers issues. Okay, Bendis, don't blow it. 
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Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 06:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Given interview comments by Daniel Way about upcoming WOLVERINE stories, it seem to be a racing certainty that he doesn't get back into power before HOUSE OF M. In which case, a whole load of Fury appearances will simply have to be disregarded as continuity errors.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 09:47 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yeah, Fury's nowhere to be found in the latest storyline in Wolverine, (so far anyway). And yet, Col. Fury is in charge of SHIELD in Way's other mainstream title "Hulk". 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 12:54 pm    
By Somebody

Hulk's claims to be "months" (I think they might even have said six or eight months) after PAD's last issue, which was a HoM epilogue. Wolverine picks up within days or so.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2005 06:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
In which case, a whole load of Fury appearances will simply have to be disregarded as continuity errors. 
<<<

Oh, ye of little faith. Marvel knows what it's doing. Yeah...um...the Fury we've been seeing post-Raft and pre-HOM is an LMD, planted there by SHIELD for reasons that will become clear in the future. 

Or...um...Nick comes back to SHIELD in A4 14-15, sticks around for those aforementioned appearances, then is gone again by HOM. Reasons for this will be sound and valid. 

  
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2005 02:05 pm    
By Col_Fury

It is odd that we haven't seen Nick during the Sentinels at the Mansion thing... but nobody has mentioned him, so we don't know what that means yet. For that Wolverine issue, it was only said in interviews that Fury wasn't available, but the story hasn't mentioned him yet, either. Maybe he's busy cleaning things up? Or on vacation? 

Also, we haven't seen Maria Hill post-HoM yet, either. So where is she? 

The only SHIELD agent I've noticed post-HoM so far was Dum Dum in the GLX holiday special, and it's mentioned that he's second in command of SHIELD, so that either means Nick is back by at least December 24, or he wasn't demoted when Hill took over... I guess thats not much help, either.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 67

Posted: 14 Dec 2005 02:24 am    Post subject: Nightcrawler v3 12
By Col_Fury

Nightcrawler vol. 3 #12 
Happy Birthday, Kurt! 
W: Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa 
D: Darick Robertson 
Published: January, 2006 

Appearances: 
Nightcrawler(Kurt Wagner), Beast(Hank McCoy), Wolverine(Logan), Emma Frost, Cyclops(Scott Summers), Magick(Amanda Sefton), Colossus(Peter Rasputin), Psylock(Betsy Braddock), Shadowcat(Kitty Pryde), Lockheed, Storm(Ororo Munroe), Christine Palmer, Polaris(Lorna Dane), Mephisto, & others? 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: Sunday 
Kurt goes to church. 
Pg2: Monday 
Hank gives Kurt a check up and mentions that hes healed enough from the previous story to start training again. 
Pg3: Tuesday 
Kurt and Logan are training in the now defunct Danger Room until Kitty tells them to stop. 
Pg4: Wednesday 
Emma Frost gives Kurt a psychic therapy session while Scoot watches. 
Pg5: Limbo, later that day 
Kurt and Amanda chat about a possible upcoming war/catastrophe on Earth. 
Pg6-pg9: Thursday evening 
While writing in his journal, Scott invites Kurt downstairs for a surprise birthday party. Everyone listed above are present(except Magick & Mephisto) are present, singing happy birthday until time freezes. 
Pg10-pg19: While time is frozen 
Kurt wanders around to find out whats going on and runs into Mephisto in front of a fireplace. They have roughly the same chat that Kurt and Amanda had, but Mephisto offers to bring Kurts brother back to life. Kurt refuses to make a deal, of course. 
Pg20: Back at the party 
Time unfreezes, and Kurt blows out his candles. 
Pg21-22: Later that night 
Getting away from the party, Kurt and Christine decide to stop seeing each other. 

References: 
Theres a FlashBack on pg15pn3, but its the same panel and dialogue as issue 4, pg5pn3. Theres no new information. 

During Kurt's & Mephisto's chat, there's a representation of a possible future that shows the Thing looking at monsters, but that's barely worth mentioning.(even though I just did) 

Mephisto reveals that hes been orchestrating events since issue 1, citing each arcs plots.(Louis Childs, the miner-ghosts, and Hive) Also, he put the idea into Storms head to send Kurt on the Louis Childs and ghost-miners cases. 

Theres a big fat temporal reference to November, which is when Kurts birthday is. Theres a calendar on the wall(which of course reflects November 2005s day/date placements) that Kurt looks at when Scott invites him downstairs. Since thats on Thursday, his birthday is either on Nov. 3, Nov. 10, Nov. 17, or Nov. 24. Its not specified which, of course. Its cloudy throughout the week, and a one quarter ( crescent moon is seen on Thursday night. The sliver we see is on our left, I cant remember if thats called waxing or waning 

The inference made by Beast is that Kurt has been inactive since issue 11, where he sustained his injuries, so he probably shouldnt have any appearances in between issues 11 & 12. However, if HoM falls in this gap, it shouldnt be much of a problem, seeing as how Wanda re-wrote reality and most likely fixed whatever injuries he had, and then re-instated them when she re-set reality. The problem may be how involved Kurt gets with some of those Sentinels during Decimation, and how many appearances he makes in the various X-Books between then and November(HoM is roughly September, right?) 

And a question: 
The two-page splash on pg7-8 has some people I dont recognize. Therere three people behind the banister on the stairs behind everyone, but Im assuming that theyre the writer, artist, and editor. The guy with glasses looks kind of like Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa, and he likes writing himself into his books, so that would make sense. 

Theres another brown-haired guy at the corner of the stairs wearing blue gloves is that supposed to be Iceman? I cant quite tell. 

Also, theres someone next to Polaris, behind Colossus shoulder. He has slicked back hair,(or possibly just short hair) and it looks to be brown. Is that supposed to be Havok? Again, I cant quite tell, but Havok is blonde 

If I missed anything else, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 05:09 am    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
a one quarter ( crescent moon is seen on Thursday night. The sliver we see is on our left, I cant remember if thats called waxing or waning 
<<<

Waning. 

Quote: 
>>>
The inference made by Beast is that Kurt has been inactive since issue 11, where he sustained his injuries, so he probably shouldnt have any appearances in between issues 11 & 12. However, if HoM falls in this gap, it shouldnt be much of a problem, seeing as how Wanda re-wrote reality and most likely fixed whatever injuries he had, and then re-instated them when she re-set reality. The problem may be how involved Kurt gets with some of those Sentinels during Decimation, and how many appearances he makes in the various X-Books between then and November(HoM is roughly September, right?)  
<<<

Problem : Nightcrawler is seen fighting the Weaponeers in UX #462, just before the first reality warp. Also, he isn't there for the fight with the Sentinels in X #177-178, but he does fight the alternate-reality X-Men in XCAL4 #1-3, which happens around the same time.

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 05:26 am    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
NTheres another brown-haired guy at the corner of the stairs wearing blue gloves is that supposed to be Iceman? I cant quite tell. 

Also, theres someone next to Polaris, behind Colossus shoulder. He has slicked back hair,(or possibly just short hair) and it looks to be brown. Is that supposed to be Havok? Again, I cant quite tell, but Havok is blonde 
<<<

If Iceman's shown in human form (and he's being drawn with very short hair, nearly a crew-cut), this needs to be post-HoM. Of course, if Polaris is there too (especially if she's shown to be powered) this may be a problem.

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 06:37 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Theres a big fat temporal reference to November, which is when Kurts birthday is. Theres a calendar on the wall(which of course reflects November 2005s day/date placements) that Kurt looks at when Scott invites him downstairs. Since thats on Thursday, his birthday is either on Nov. 3, Nov. 10, Nov. 17, or Nov. 24.  
<<<

Actually, I'm thinking of placing this on Thursday, October 22 on the calendar. First, the placement of days on the calendar shown in the comic merely reflects "2005" -- it should be handled as any other reference to an actual year; it's topical. Thursday happens to synch up with November 5, 12, 19, and 26 in Year 23 of the calendar. 

Secondly, Kurt celebrated a birthday in UX@ 4. UX@ 4 occurs before UX 139-140, which occur before M/TIO 68-69, which occur before UX 141. UX 141 occurs on "October 31." So Kurt's current Thursday birthday would need to synch up with October 8, 15, 22, and 29 on the current calendar. We'd need to allow enough time between Kurt's birthday and that Halloween for the intervening stories to occur, so that rules out October 29 for the birthday. I would presume that someone tore the October page off the calendar prematurely, so I'd place the current birthday on the next closest Thursday to November -- October 22. 

Fortunately, this falls post-HOM on the calendar. If Kurt is out of commission since NC3 11, then we'd have a problem with the Weaponeers scene if UX 462 needs to happen after NC3 11. We don't have analyses of NC3 5-11 yet, so I don't know much about that.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 02:00 pm    
By Col_Fury

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
If Iceman's shown in human form (and he's being drawn with very short hair, nearly a crew-cut), this needs to be post-HoM. Of course, if Polaris is there too (especially if she's shown to be powered) this may be a problem. 
<<<

The guy with blue gloves has shortish shaggy hair, so that's probably not Bobby, but rather the guy next to Lorna behind Peter's shoulder. Also, no one is using their powers, so that would be a de-powered Bobby if we can figure out which one he is. Lorna isn't doing anything but singing, so that's a could-go-either-way for her, depending on how the current story in Milligan's X-Men turns out... 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I would presume that someone tore the October page off the calendar prematurely 
<<<

I like it! 

JD wrote: 
>>>
Waning. 
<<<

Thanks! 

As for Beast's inferrance, during the check up they're talking about the injuries Kurt sustained from the previous story,(burns from the Man-Thing & claw marks from Vermin) but they don't flat-out say that's the reason Kurt's out of action, it's just implied. It could be due to injuries from some other adventure, published or otherwise, if we needed it to. We still have some wiggle room if we need it.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 03:41 am    
By Col_Fury

X-Men 179 is out, ending it's three issue arc. However, it has Polaris and Havok quitting the team together. I won't spoil Iceman's revelation here, but it doesn't really affect his appearance in Nightcrawler 12.(if one of those guys turns out ot be him, anyway) 

That's definitely Polaris at the birthday party, I don't know of many other characters with green hair. I suppose it's possible that she came back as a nice surprise for Kurt, but from dialogue in X-Men 179, if she came back, so did Havok. They didn't say exactly where they were going, but it sounds like a plot that will be picked up way down the road. If that's the case, it shouldn't affect things too badly if they came back for a party. 

Unless anyone has a better grasp, I'm going to say that the guy behind Colossus' shoulder is Havok, next to Polaris. The guy with the blue gloves is Iceman, he has a similar haircut as seen in X-men 179.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 06:44 am    
By Somebody

X-Men #180 preview shows Lorna and Alex in civvies. They're not vanishing.

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 02:44 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It certainly looks like the guy with brown hair is Iceman. The presence of Storm, who's still in Africa after M-Day, suggests this is running a little way ahead. 

Is there any particular reason why the previous Nightcrawler arc can't be post-HOM as well?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 04:17 pm    
By Jason Doty

I think your going to have to write off Iceman out of this scene. If he's there, it has to be after HoM, because he could'nt de-ice. Also if it is after HoM, we have to wait for Storm to return from Africa plus in the latest issue that happens right on the heals of Decimation Lorna leaves. 

I would set this issue prior to HoM and prior to the Africa story line, think of someone else Iceman could be and hopefully this all jives with the calender and Nightcrawler's birthday being in November.

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 06:30 pm    
By Jason Doty

Quote: 
>>>
Is there any particular reason why the previous Nightcrawler arc can't be post-HOM as well? 
<<<

Do you mean #7-11, #5-6, or #1-4? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 11:09 pm    
By Col_Fury

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I think your going to have to write off Iceman out of this scene. If he's there, it has to be after HoM, because he could'nt de-ice. Also if it is after HoM, we have to wait for Storm to return from Africa plus in the latest issue that happens right on the heals of Decimation Lorna leaves. 
<<<

I said I wouldn't spoil it here, but... 
As of the end of X-Men 179, Iceman can ice up and ice down, so his being in human form in Nightcrawler 12 must occur after X-Men 179. Before this, he couldn't. 

As for Lorna, Alex, and Ororo, I wouldn't think it's too much of a stretch to have them come back for one evening for a birthday party. It's not like they're rejoining the X-Men or anything, they would just be popping in. 

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The presence of Storm, who's still in Africa after M-Day, suggests this is running a little way ahead.  
<<<

Yes, I think so also. 

>>>
Is there any particular reason why the previous Nightcrawler arc can't be post-HOM as well? 
<<<

7-11? I hadn't thought of that, but it would solve the 'Kurt's injuries' problem.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 16 Dec 2005 04:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
7-11? I hadn't thought of that, but it would solve the 'Kurt's injuries' problem. 
<<<

Any chance of getting an analysis of that arc? And maybe #5-6 too?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Dec 2005 05:20 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Also, Lorna's plainly not leaving the cast just yet, since the next arc is "What Lorna Saw."
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Dec 2005 12:51 am    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Any chance of getting an analysis of that arc? And maybe #5-6 too? 
<<<

I'd like to apologize to Jeph, who's working on those arcs... 

Sorry Jeph! I didn't mean to do this issue before the previous arcs... I had some time... this was just one issue... Punisher: Silent Night wasn't out yet...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 17 Dec 2005 11:10 am    
By Somebody

LOL

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Posted: 17 Dec 2005 12:31 pm    
By Jason Doty

Just a guess, not meant to spoil anything. 


The Reason I suggested what I did is the facts that Storm is going to be in Black Panthers "search for a bride" story arc and over at uncannyxmen.net in the "Monday with Marts" section he stated that three individuals from about 12 shown would become the new Horsemen, among these are Polaris, Havok, and Sunfire. The current cover in the Marvel Previews shows Sunfire (looking very "Age of Apokalypse") and with Polaris looking to get her powers back this might be the track she is headed down.

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Posted: 17 Dec 2005 01:50 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

But we could end up having things occur in this order... 
Search for a bride (Storm still in Africa) 
NC3 12 (Storm back; Alex and Lorna visit or still around) 
New horsemen (Bye, Lorna) 

Looks like yet another "wait and see."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Dec 2005 10:56 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

If Iceman gets his powers back, (which it now appears he truly did), and if Lorna gets her powers back... 

...then what was the point of "M-day" again?!? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 18 Dec 2005 12:29 am    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Search for a bride (Storm still in Africa) 
NC3 12 (Storm back; Alex and Lorna visit or still around) 
New horsemen (Bye, Lorna) 
<<<

That's what I'm thinking. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
...then what was the point of "M-day" again?!?   
<<<

That's also what I'm thinking.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 23 Dec 2005 08:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
That's definitely Polaris at the birthday party, I don't know of many other characters with green hair. I suppose it's possible that she came back as a nice surprise for Kurt, but from dialogue in X-Men 179, if she came back, so did Havok. They didn't say exactly where they were going, but it sounds like a plot that will be picked up way down the road. If that's the case, it shouldn't affect things too badly if they came back for a party. Unless anyone has a better grasp, I'm going to say that the guy behind Colossus' shoulder is Havok, next to Polaris.  
<<<

Havok and Polaris may not just be visiting. I think their absence from the team is going to have to be short-lived. Check out this sequence: 

HOUSE OF M: THE DAY AFTER 

X-MEN #177-179 (follows on the heals of "Day After"; Sentinels arrive at the Institute; Havok leaves with Lorna) 

X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #1 (During the "week" after M-Day; A Sentinel is seen at the Institute, so it's after X 179) 

X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #2 (There's Havok at the Institute!) 

If Havok is back that quickly, there's really no problem in placing NC3 12 after all this. 

My guess is that X 180-181 will follow closely on the heels on X 179 and will result in Havok and Polaris returning to the X-Men. X:DG 1 will occur after this. 

And, as noted earlier, X 182-186 will probably end up happening after NC3 12, given what folks think may happen with Lorna.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 68

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 01:45 pm    Post subject: Captain Universe Series
By Jason Doty

Amazing Fantasy no.13/2 

Power Corrupted Part 1 

Two Months Ago: The Microverse 

Two Aliens and some sort of construct explore an asteroid base, discovering a language they dont know and a chamber. 

Chicago, Now 

A police officer dressed as Captain Universe explains how he got his powers to his wife. 

Flashback- (While on shift the day before) While trying to save a jumper intent on committing suicide the officer sees a strange blue light and suddenly feels power coursing through him. 

After explaining he flies off on patrol. 
He comes across police engaged in a fire fight with two body armored robbers. 
He takes out one robber with a blast, but the other fires on him. 
He tries to blast the other, but nothing happens, the robber continues firing and the bullets pass through him striking and killing an officer behind him. 
He picks up the dead officers gun and shoots the robber fatally. 
As he holds the dead officer, he curses whoever gave him these powers that dont work and screams for them to take them back. 

Characters: 
In Microverse: (Cinglet, Xennon, Unnamed cataloging construct, Captain of ship-BTS) 
Chicago: (Uni-Force, Captain Universe/ Ted, Leslie (wife), jumper, 2 armored robbers, several officers including Burns who is killed) 

Amazing Fantasy no.14/2 

Power Corrupted Part II 

Two Months Ago: The Microverse 

Cinglet and Xenon transport the chamber, which is holding a cryogenically specimen to there ship, just then the construct rushes in saying that this was a penal colony. 
Just then their ship is struck by an unknown force blast. 

Brooklyn, NY, Now 

A thief is running from the grocer, a man in a wheel chair tries to stop him but fails. 
The grocer asks if the man is all right, and tries to help him back in his wheelchair. 
The man says He can do it himself. The men talk about how useless the handicap man feels. 
Later at home, the crippled man is visited by the Uni-Force, which explains to him that something is causing its power to weaken. It needs a willing host to help it figure out what is causing it. The Uni-Force wants to bond with and replicate several super-heroes powers without imposing on them. The Uni-Force says he might be able to restore the crippled mans ability to walk and the man agrees to help him. 

Characters: 
In Microverse: (Cinglet, Xennon, Unnamed cataloging construct, Captain of ship) 
Brooklyn: (thief, grocer Luis, Lt. Gabriel Vargas cripple, Uni-Force) 

Captain Universe/Hulk no.1 

Secrets and Origins 

Out in the snowy woods, Bruce Banner steps on a bear trap and becomes the Hulk. The Uni-Force confronts the Hulk and wishes to speak with Banner. The Uni-Force bonds with Hulk and reverts him to Banner. 

The Uni-Force explains that its power has been compromised and it needs him to contact the leading researcher on the planet on the Uni-Force, Dr. Wiles, in Manhattan. Banner agrees to help with reluctance. 

In Manhattan, Banner meets with Dr. Wiles and asks about his research. Just then, David Garrett, Wiles partner comes in, but is called away by a phone call. Garrett is contacted by costumed agents aboard a sub who inform him that they have discovered what they have been looking for. After Banner (who is posing as Bruce Barnes) says that he once bonded with the Uni-Force, Dr. Wilkes explains his connection. 

Flashback- 22 years ago, Dr. Wiles was on a cross-country flight that was high jacked, he became Captain Universe and saved the day. Ever since he has devoted his life to unveiling the secrets of the uni-power. 

Just then, Garrett bursts in with a weapon and several robots. He fires at Banner and the Uni-Force is extracted from him. Wiles is upset. Banner becomes the Hulk and plummets into the robots. The mysterious agents monitor from their vessel. Using Delta Radiation the robots gain the upper hand against the Hulk. 

Meanwhile, Wiles disables the weapon releasing the Uni-Force. It makes a beeline for the Hulk and merges with him. Hulk makes quick work of the robots and heads back to the lab. There he discovers Wiles standing over a dead Garrett. Wiles said he didnt do it that he saw a light and when he recovered he was dead. 

With the police on the way, Hulk offers to take Wiles with him, but he refuses not wanting to live life as a fugitive. Hulk leaves. Wiles is arrested. 

Later, Banner contacts Matt Murdock at his Law Office. 

Characters: 
(Hulk/Bruce Banner, Uni-Force, Dr. Gilbert Wiles, Agent David Garrett, Mysterious agents, led by a female.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 03:28 pm    
By Somebody

Uni-Power, NOT Uni-Force

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 04:28 pm    
By Jason Doty

My bad.

Last edited by Jason Doty on 19 Dec 2005 06:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 19 Dec 2005 06:01 pm    
By Jason Doty

Captain Universe/Daredevil no.1 

Sensory Overload 

*Note these events precede the Murdock Papers. 

Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson are defending Dr. Wiles who is standing trial for murder. Murdock senses a man in the room no one else can see. As the man leaves Murdock follows. Foggy calls for a recess. 

As Daredevil he catches the man on the roof, but is ambushed by three other agents who are all cloaked. As they gain an advantage Daredevil is merged with the Uni-Power and the villains flee. 

After regaining control of his new senses Daredevil returns home as the Uni-Power explains why he has merged with him. 

Murdock speaks with Foggy and the two try to figure out what is going on. That evening using his new senses Daredevil sniffs out the agents. 

Daredevil finds them and attacks before they go after him. Not accustomed to these new abilities the agents gain the upper hand and Daredevil asks the Uni-Power to leave him. The Uni-Power complies and Daredevil beats them down and finds out they are from A.I.M. He makes a call to the Black Widow for a favor. 

The next day SHIELD agent Khanata intervines at the trial and the D.A. drops the charges. After he asks Murdock about the Uni-Power, but he gives no answers. 

Later that evening, Daredevil visits Dr. Wiles lab. The Uni-Power apologizes to the Doctor, but the Wiles unfourtunatly has no answers that will help it and suggests finding out what A.I.M knows. 

Characters: 
(Uni-Power, Daredevil/ Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Dr. Gilbert Wiles, Several A.I.M agents, SHIELD Agent Khanata, Black Widow/Natasha Romanova-BTS)

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 06:28 pm    
By Jason Doty

Captain Universe/X-23 no.1 

Double Threat 

One evening a team of SHIELD Agents including Scorpion and Agent Khanata are observing A.I.M agents dressed as construction workers performing tests. 

The A.I.M team are approached by homeless kids looking for a couple bucks. When the kids wont scram the A.I.M goons pull out weapons. Out of nowhere jumps X-23 who begins assaulting them. They call for backup. 
Cloaked A.I.M agents assault X-23 who is suddenly merged with the Uni-Power. While she engages them the others pull out weapons meant to capture the Uni-Power, but they are intercepted by Scorpion. The two girls fight off the attackers and almost get into it themselves, but cooler minds prevail and they finish defeating the A.I.M goons. 

The Uni-Power asks X-23 to help destroy the A.I.M info on it. She agrees and leaves. SHIELD radios Scorpion to not loose her. Scorpion offers to help but X-23 declines until Scorpion says she has the info on the base. 

Meanwhile, other SHIELD agents are getting the info from those that were turned over to them by Daredevil. 

As the woman travel on top a train the info is relayed to Scorpion. They jump off and make their way into the base, which id deserted except for one lone scientist that has hit the self destruct. Scorpion is ordered to get the info while X-23 knocks out the scientist. Before she can download it, X-23 destroys it. Thinking they have been compromised SHIELD orders Scorpion to take her into custody. Scorpion lies and says X-23 was destroyed in the explosion. 

That morning, the Uni-Power thanks X-23 and departs for someone smart enough to help it. 

Somewhere in space, Empress Lilandra orders Gladiator to bring the Uni-Power to them for evaluation. 

Characters: 
(A.I.M agents, SHIELD agents, Agent Khanata, Scorpion, X-23, Uni-Power, several homeless kids.)

			*	*	*

Captain Universe/Invisible Woman no.1 

Empowered 

The Uni-Power has sought out Reed Richards to help it figure out its power fluctuations. While Mr. Fantastic runs tests and the Fantastic Four watch, Gladiator is on a course for Earth. 

Gladiator bursts into the Baxter Building explaining that the FF dont realize the danger and uses his heat vision to destroy the apparatus containing the Uni-Power. When the dust clears it has vanished. 

Gladiator uses his own device to find out where it went suggesting that it is hiding in one of the FF. As the Invisible Woman approaches him trying to explain the situation, he back hands her. She replies by belting him out the building. The Uni-Power has merged with her. 

Gladiator returns and tells the Invisible Woman to fight its influence, but as he tries to convince the rest of the FF, Thing and the Torch engage him. Not wanting to get innocents hurt, Sue tells Gladiator if he wants the Uni-Power to follow her and flies off. Gladiator follows. 
He catches her somewhere near the western deserts of the US. He throws her to the ground and punches her. She hits him with a rock knocking him clear into the Pacific. 

She follows him to the ocean floor and continues to beat him down. Knocking him out of the water she asks him to stop, so they can talk. Just then she is contacted by Reed who says there is a giant tsunami headed to the coast of California. 

Sue lets the Uni-Power merge with Gladiator so they can get their in time. Once to San Francisco the Uni-Power remerges with Sue and she creates an invisible force field over San Francisco. 

That evening the two have returned to the Baxter Building and Gladiator apologizes. Reed has run all the tests he can with no success. He suggests that the Uni-Force return with Gladiator, who has promised it will be treated as a guest. The two leave for space. 

In space Gladiator and the Uni-Power are hit with an energy beam from an asteroid and a tractor beam pulls the unconscious Gladiator and the Uni-Power inside. 

Characters: 
(Uni-Power, Mr. Fantastic, Human Torch, Thing, Invisible Woman, Gladiator)

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 08:40 pm  
By Jason Doty

Captain Universe/Silver Surfer no.1 

Instiable 

Gladiator is awoken by the Uni-Power, but he is trapped within a stasis field that is sapping his strength with other aliens. The Uni-Power tries to merge with him but cannot break through the field. 

From a monitoring area, aliens are monitoring the event. The leader asks what the orb is and his underlings tell him that it is the Uni-Power. The leader heads to the stasis area. 

There he explains that he is Krosakis and he feeds on energy forces of others. He suddenly grabs the Uni-Power and the two are merged. 

Somewhere in space, the Silver Surfer is struck when he feels a disturbance in the Power Cosmic and rushes to find out what. 

Aboard his ship the alien leader lives it up with some alien chicks, when he is contacted by his crew about an approaching threat. 

The Uni-Powered alien heads into space to greet the Silver Surfer. The Surfer explains he is wielding energies not his own and the two fight. 

During the battle the alien hits his own ship and it begins to head toward a planet. With the fight still going on, both the Surfer and the alien plummet through the same planets atmosphere. 

On the planets surface, the alien attempts to drain the Surfer who gives him all he wants, overloading him. The Uni-Power is freed and merges with the Surfer to save Gladiator and the damaged vessel. 

Once accomplished, the crew says they were forced to work for Krosakis. Gladiator tells them he will be turned over to the authorities and he and the Uni-Power can return on their course. The merged Surfer says that it will no longer be necessary for his energies have made it so the Uni-Power can no longer be tampered with. The merged Surfer takes his leave and heads to Earth. 

At dawn the Surfer enters the home of Gabriel Vargas and the Uni-Power is transferred to him. As Captain Universe he is about to embark on a great mission. He thanks the Surfer and they both leave. 

Characters: 
(Uni-Power, Gladiator, Krosakis, Silver Surfer, several aliens, Gabriel Vargas)

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Posted: 19 Dec 2005 08:43 pm    
By Jason Doty

Chronological clues 

Banner hidding somewhere cold, Hulk semi-inteligent. 
Daredevil identity public knowledge, before Murdock Papers. 
X-23 living in homeless shelter. 
FF costumes look MK: "4"ish 

If you have any questions post them.

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Posted: 19 Dec 2005 09:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jason, any idea of how much time passes between these issues? How would they all plot out on a calendar (Day 1, Day 2, etc.)?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 10:20 pm    
By Jason Doty

Updated: 

Twenty Two Years prior to CU/H no.1-Wiles become Captain Universe and saves highjacked plane 
CU/H no.1-f/b (9p2-10p3) 

Hulk vs. Captain Universe-f/b? (In desert crater) 
CU/H no.1 (4p3) 

X-23 in custody-F/B (being worked on) 
CU/X-23 no.1 (12p4) 

Two months prior Day 1: the Microverse scenes. 
AAF2 no.13/2 (1-2) 
AAF2 no.14/2 (1-2) 

Day 1, Uni-Power merges with the cop in Chicago. 
AAF2 no.13/2-f/b (3p5-4p1) 

Day 2, Cop tells wife then heads on patrol as Captain Universe. 
AAF2 no.13/2 (3-8) 

Day 3, Lt. Vargas tries to stop thief and then is confronted by the Uni-Power. 
AAF2 no.14/2 (3-8) 

Day 4, Uni-Power finds Hulk and asks Banner to find Dr. Wiles. 
CU/H no.1 (1-6) 

Unspecified amount of time for Banner to research Wiles, find him, contact him, and travel from whatever snowy forrest he's in to Manhatten. 

Day 5, Hulk fights AIM robots, Dr. Wiles arrested, Hulk flees. 
CU/H no.1 (7-21) 

Day 6, Dr. Wiles in jail, Banner contacts Law Offices of Murdock and Nelson. 
CU/H no.1 (22) 

Unspecified amount of time, depending how long Murdock prepares for defense of Wiles and it takes to go to trial. (weeks) 

Day 20 Trial of Wiles, DD fights AIM, merged with Uni-Power, Evening with Foggy, Uses abilities to hunt down AIM. Calls Black Widow. 
CU/DD no.1 (1-17) 

Day 21, Charges dropped by SHIELD intervention, has lunch with Foggy, DD visits lab. 
CU/DD no.1 (18-22) 

Day 22-23, AIM fights X-23 and Scorpion takes all night. 
CU/X-23 no.1 (1-20) 

Day 23, early morning Uni-Power leaves X-23 to find Reed Richards, Lilandra orders Gladiator to Earth. 
CU/X-23 no.1 (21-22) 

Unspecified amount of time for Gladiator to get to Earth and Reed Richards to run a battery of tests. 

Day 24, Gladiator fights FF, Uni-Power leaves with Gladiator that evening. 
CU/IW no.1 (1-21) 

Unspecified amount of time between how far out they were when attacked in space. 
CU/IW no.1 (22) 

Day 25, Gladiator in stasis, Uni-Power absorbed by alien. Surfer feels effect of absorbtion. 
CU/SS no.1 (1-7) 

Unspecified amount of time for Surfer to reach disturbance. 

Day 26, Surfer fights alien and frees prisoners. 
CU/SS no.1 (8-20) 
Unspecified amount of time for Surfer to return to earth. 

Day 27, Surfer transfers Uni-Power to Vargas. 
CU/SS no.1 (21-23)

Last edited by Jason Doty on 20 Dec 2005 11:18 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 01:15 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, you could've saved yourself the trouble of reviewing the "prologue stories" from Amazing Fantasy #13 and 14, (I did them here): 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1945 

However, multiple reviews for comics that need analysis are welcomed, (that way there's more than one person vouching for the contents of the comic, with both people saying "this is what happened in this issue"). 

And I was going to review the Captain Universe issues themselves, but I wouldn't have been able to get to do them till January, so I guess you've saved me the trouble.  

That said, let me throw in some commentary: 

Quote: 
>>>
Characters: 
(Hulk/Bruce Banner, Uni-Force, Dr. Gilbert Wiles, Agent David Garrett, Mysterious agents, led by a female.) 
<<<

Those mysterious agents are A.I.M. agents, and the female leading them, (though her face is kept hidden in the shadows) is Monica Rappaccini, from Scorpion II's storyline, (which seems to be popping up in more and more books). 

Quote: 
>>>
Captain Universe/Daredevil no.1 

Sensory Overload 

*Note these events precede the Murdock Papers.  
<<<

You left out in your synopsis the bit where at the end of the issue, Foggy, (who still thinks Matt's blindness has been cured by the Uni-power) gives Matt a photo of him and Milla Donovan together. Matt looks at it, but can't see it because his blindness has returned, but he says that Milla looks beautiful. Most touching scene in the whole miniseries.  

But anyway, my point is, as stated by the narrative caption which says "these events precede Murdock Papers" the clues in the story seem to line up with that narrative caption, as Matt and Milla are clearly seperated from each other at this point in time. (Whereas they get back together in the first issue of "Murdock Papers"). 

Foggy says, "It's that photo I took of you and Milla, that time we all had a picnic in the park." If you choose to count that photo as a flashback, then it must occur sometime during the "one year" gap in Daredevil. 

Quote: 
>>>
Somewhere in space, Empress Lilandra orders Gladiator to bring the Uni-Power to them for evaluation. 

Characters: 
(A.I.M agents, SHIELD agents, Agent Khanata, Scorpion, X-23, Uni-Power, several homeless kids.) 
<<<

So it appears Empress Lilandra needs listed in your "Character Appearances" section. 

Also, Agents Nagayoshi and Sareva, (Khanata's right hand helpers from AF2 #7-12) appear in this issue as well. 

Moving on, X-23's chronology is probably the biggest mystery to me, (I'm no expert on the X books). She was living at the mansion at one point, but here she's back out on the streets, defending homeless kids. And of course, she's on the other side of the country in New X-men #20. 

Quote: 
>>>
Chronological clues 

Banner hidding somewhere cold, Hulk semi-inteligent.  
<<<

As discussed over in another thread, this can probably safely go either before or after "House of M". 

Quote: 
>>>
This is probably left best to others but I'll give it a try. 

Day 1, Uni-Power merges with the cop in Chicago. 
Day 2, Cop heads on patrol as Captain Universe. 
<<< 


I was of the opinion in my review that this all happened on the same day, (the flashback with Ted gaining the Uni-Power shortly before Ted meets up with his wife to tell her he's now a superhero). But it's possible it happened the day prior: Ted says he's going out on patrol, and she says, "But I thought you were off today?" And he says he's not patroling as a cop, but as a superhero now. But why would he wait till the next day to tell his wife he's a superhero? *shrug* 

Overall, it seems you did a good job of breaking down the scenes which happen on different days. But what you need to do now is add page/panel ranges for each scene that occurs on a different day. For instance, the "Two Months Prior" bit involving the Microverse occurs in AF2 13, pgs. 1 and 2, and then next in AF2 14, pgs. 1 and 2. Do that for the whole miniseries, and then I think you'll have succeeded in finishing up this review for Paul's calender! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 02:13 am    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Moving on, X-23's chronology is probably the biggest mystery to me, (I'm no expert on the X books). She was living at the mansion at one point, but here she's back out on the streets, defending homeless kids. And of course, she's on the other side of the country in New X-men #20.  
<<<

I think this would fit in easily enough after the last time we saw her in whatever X-Book she was appearing in last, but before she went off to the other side of the country. Maybe she was checking in on homeless kids before she left? However, wasn't she living in shelters before she hooked up with the X-Men? Perhaps this means this occurs before she meets the X-Men? But going by other characters chronologies, it may be better if it's after all that. She's not wearing the Fang suit, so that doesn't really help one way or the other. 

Also, on pg12pn4 (of 6) of the X-23 issue, there's a FlashBack to X-23 being expiremented on. Some scientists are sharpening the claws on her right hand while she is awake. This would fit in-between panels of her mini, if it doesn't repeat anything... 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Also, Agents Nagayoshi and Sareva, (Khanata's right hand helpers from AF2 #7-12) appear in this issue as well. 
<<<

And that's the reason I bought these. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 03:17 am    
By JD

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Unspecified amount of time, depending how long Murdock prepares for defense of Wiles and it takes to go to trial. 
<<<

At the end of the CU/DD issue, Wiles is angry against the Unipower because he's been left in jail for "weeks".

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 05:29 am    
By Col_Fury

If it helps... 

Amazing Fantasy 13/2 has green trees in New York in the 'now' segment. The police are wearing uniform jackets. 

Amazing Fantasy 14/2 also has green trees in New York, and some people are wearing jackets, but not everyone. Some people have short sleeves, and one idiot is wearing shorts. 

When Bruce makes it to New York, you can still see his breath, and people are wearing coats and jackets. So it's cold weather season in New York for the Hulk issue. Since Bruce was in a snowy forest, he may not have been as far away from New York as it looked.(we don't see any snow in Manhattan, though) No moons are visible. 

In the Daredevil issue, there's a full moon over New York, and it's raining the night of Dr. Wiles' trial. SHIELD agent Khanta is wearing a coat, we don't see any other civilians outside. 

In the X-23 issue, people are still wearing coats and jackets, and there's a full moon seen the night X-23 and Scorpion storm the compound. 

People are wearing jackets in the Invisible Woman issue, and there's green shrubs in New York.(no trees are seen, though. Just bushes) There's a full moon over New York that night. 

When the Silver Surfer makes it back to Earth, we don't see anyone outdoors, so who knows what season it is.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 10:35 am    
By Jason Doty

I'll re-edit the timeline with suggestions. 

Just a couple of questions 

Shouldn't we call this AAF2 for short, I keep seeing Alpha Flight vol.2 when I read the posts? 

I don't know how X-23's timeline works for the period, lining up with Daredevil, but one of the kids says, "He recognizes her from the shelter, not that she is currently staying there. I just made the assumption. Paul can you fill is in with a rough estimate of which x-titles line up with Daredevil so we can decide if it is before she goes to the mansion or after?

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 12:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

X-23 came to live at the mansion in X #165, published about a year ago. Let's NOT suggest shuffling things around so this mini occurs before that point. There's no need for it -- we know that, between UX #461 and NX #20, she left the mansion for the streets again. That's a *current* reference to her living on the streets -- let's place this mini there. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 01:32 pm    
By Jason Doty

Jeph!, I don't follow Daredevil and the series specifically references before what story arc it occurs, so the X-23 appearance would have to corrispond with that reference? 

Thats why I questioned how the two series line up.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2005 09:53 am  
By jephyork
Director

The Daredevil story that's being referenced is the *current* arc -- so the series' claim to have occured before it doesn't force it very far into the past. 

That said, Jason, I was actually responding to Col-Fury's musings on whether the series should occur before X-23 met the X-Men back in UX #450. 

And, to answer Kevin's musings on whether or not this series occurs pre- or post-HOM ... if this series occurs while X-23 is out on the street, it's got to occur pre-HOM -- because Wolverine calls X-23 home in NX #20, in the immediate aftermath of HOM and M-Day. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Dec 2005 01:54 pm    
By Col_Fury

I agree that this should be post-Uncanny 461, and I think there's a big chunk of time between the 'Murdock Papers' and it's previous story, so there's plenty of space to work with. As Jeph said, these Captain Universe issues are pre-HoM, and I think 'Murdock Papers' is still pre-HoM, too.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 22 Dec 2005 07:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

In trying to reformat the analysis for the calendar, I've come up with the following. Can anyone fill in the "x"s, add relevant info, and correct any errors? Thanks. 


CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK #1  FB 
One day, 22 years before CU/H 1 (1-x). While on a hijacked cross-country flight, Dr. Wiles becomes Captain Universe and saves the day. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/DAREDEVIL #1  FB 
One day. Matt and Milla get their picture taken by Foggy while picnicking in the park. Green trees in New York. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/X-23 #1  FB 
One day. X-23 is being experimented on. Scientists scrape her right claws while shes awake. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK #1 (1-x) 
One day, 20 years after CU/H 1-FB and weeks before CU/DD 1 (18-22). In the snowy woods, Bruce Banner steps on a bear trap and becomes the Hulk, whos semi-intelligent. The Uni-Force confronts the Hulk and bonds with him, reverting him to Banner. The Uni-Force explains that its power has been compromised and it needs him to contact Dr. Wiles in Manhattan. Banner reluctantly agrees to help. Wiles partner, David Garrett, is contacted by costumed agents aboard a sub who inform him that they have discovered what they have been looking for. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK 31 (x-xx) 
Probably the day after CU/H 1 (1-x). In Manhattan, Banner meets with Dr. Wiles, who explains his connection to the Uni-Force. Garrett bursts in with a weapon and several robots. He fires at Banner and the Uni-Force is extracted from him. Banner becomes the Hulk and battles the robots as the mysterious agents monitor from their vessel. Using Delta Radiation, the robots gain the upper hand against the Hulk. Wiles disables the weapon, releasing the Uni-Force, which merges with Hulk. Hulk defeats the robots and returns to the lab, where he discovers Wiles standing over a dead Garrett. Wiles says he found Garrett that way. With the police on the way, Hulk offers to take Wiles with him, but he refuses. Hulk leaves and Wiles is arrested. Later, Banner contacts Matt Murdock at his law office. Coat and jacket weather in New York, where its cold enough to see peoples breath. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/DAREDEVIL #1 (1-17) 
One day. Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson defend Dr. Wiles in his murder trial. Murdock senses a man in the room no one else can see. As the man leaves Murdock follows and Foggy calls for a recess. Daredevil catches the man on the roof but is ambushed by three cloaked agents. As they gain an advantage, Daredevil is merged with the Uni-Power and the villains flee. After gaining control of his new senses, Daredevil returns home as the Uni-Power explains why he has merged with him. Murdock and Foggy try to figure out whats going on. That evening, Daredevil uses his new senses to sniff out and attack the agents. The agents gain the upper hand and Daredevil asks the Uni-Power to leave him. The Uni-Power complies and Daredevil beats them down and finds out they are from AIM. He makes a call to the Black Widow for a favor. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/DAREDEVIL #1 (18-22) 
The day after CU/DD 1 (1-17). It is weeks after CU/H 1. Matt and Milla are clearly separated from each other at this point in time, so this segment must occur before DD2 76. SHIELD agent Khanata (who wears a coat) intervenes at the trial and the D.A. drops the charges. He asks Murdock about the Uni-Power, but Matt gives no answers. Later that evening, Daredevil visits Dr. Wiles lab. The Uni-Power apologizes to the doctor, but Wiles has no answers that will help it and suggests finding out what AIM knows. Full moon. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/X-23 #1 (1-20) 
One evening, shortly after CU/DD 1 (18-22). This segment must occur after UX 461. The new Scorpion, Agent Khanata, and other SHIELD agents observe AIM agents dressed as construction workers performing tests. When the AIM team pulls out weapons to intimidate some homeless kids who interrupt them, X-23 assaults the agents. When backup AIM agents attack X-23, she is merged with the Uni-Power. When X-23's adversaries pull out weapons meant to capture the Uni-Power, but they are intercepted by Scorpion. The two women defeat the AIM goons. The Uni-Power asks X-23 to help destroy the AIM info on it. She agrees and leaves. SHIELD radios Scorpion to not lose her. Scorpion offers to help and X-23 accepts. Other SHIELD agents get info from the AIM guys who were turned over to them by Daredevil and they relay the info to Scorpion. She and X-23 make their way into the base, which is deserted except for a lone scientist who has activated a self-destruct mechanism. Scorpion is ordered to get the info while X-23 knocks out the scientist. Before Scorpion can download the info, X-23 destroys it. Thinking they have been compromised, SHIELD orders Scorpion to take X-23 into custody. Scorpion lies and says X-23 was destroyed in the explosion. We see coats and jackets and a full moon. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/X-23 #1 (21-22) 
The morning after CU/X 1 (1-20). This segment must occur before NX 20. The Uni-Power thanks X-23 and departs for someone smart enough to help it. Somewhere in space, Lilandra orders Gladiator to bring the Uni-Power to them for evaluation. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/INVISIBLE WOMAN #1One day, shortly after CU/X-23 1 (21-22). The Uni-Power has sought out Reed Richards to help it figure out its power fluctuations. While Reed runs tests and the FF watch, Gladiator bursts into the Baxter Building explaining that the FF dont realize the danger and uses his heat vision to destroy the apparatus containing the Uni-Power. When the dust clears, Gladiators device shows that the Uni-Force is hiding in one of the FF. When Sue belts Gladiator out the building, its obvious that the Uni-Power has merged with her. Gladiator returns and tells Sue to fight its influence, but as he tries to convince the rest of the FF, Thing and the Torch engage him. Not wanting to get innocents hurt, Sue tells Gladiator to follow her and flies off. Gladiator catches her somewhere in the western U.S. She hits him with a rock and knocks him clear into the Pacific. She follows him to the ocean floor and continues to beat him down. Knocking him out of the water she asks him to stop so they can talk. Just then she is contacted by Reed who says there is a giant tsunami headed to the coast of California. Sue lets the Uni-Power merge with Gladiator so they can get there in time. The Uni-Power rejoins with Sue and she creates an invisible force field over San Francisco. That evening the two have returned to the Baxter Building and Gladiator apologizes. After unsuccessfully running all the tests he can, Reed suggests that the Uni-Force return with Gladiator. The two leave for space, where they are hit with an energy beam from an asteroid. A tractor beam pulls the unconscious Gladiator and the Uni-Power inside. Jackets and green shrubs in New York. Full moon. 
CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/SILVER SURFER #1 (1-x) 
The same day as CU/FF 1. Gladiator is awoken by the Uni-Power, but he is trapped with other aliens in a stasis field that is sapping his strength. The Uni-Power tries to merge with him but cannot break through the field. From a monitoring area, aliens monitor the event. The leader, Krosakis, enters the stasis area and explains that he feeds on energy forces of others. He grabs the Uni-Power and the two are merged. Somewhere in space, the Silver Surfer is struck when he feels a disturbance in the Power Cosmic and rushes to find the cause. Krosakis is contacted by his crew about an approaching threat and heads into space to greet the Surfer. The two fight. During the battle Krosakis hits his own ship and it begins to head toward a planet. The Surfer and Krosakis plummet through the planets atmosphere. On the planets surface, Krosakis attempts to drain the Surfer and is overloaded. The Uni-Power is freed and merges with the Surfer to save Gladiator and the damaged vessel. Gladiator tells the coerced crew that Krosakis will be turned over to the authorities and that he and the Uni-Power can return on their course. The merged Surfer says that it will no longer be necessary for his energies have made it so the Uni-Power can no longer be tampered with. The merged Surfer heads to Earth. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/SILVER SURFER #1 (x-xx) 
The day after CU/SS 1 (1-x). At dawn the Surfer enters the home of Gabriel Vargas and the Uni-Power is transferred to him. As Captain Universe, Vargas is about to embark on a great mission. He thanks the Surfer and they both leave.
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 23 Dec 2005 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 23 Dec 2005 03:27 am    
By Col_Fury

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/DAREDEVIL #1  FB 
One day. Matt and Milla get their picture taken by Foggy while picnicking in the park. Green leaves on trees and sunny in the park. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK #1 
One day, weeks before CU/DD 1 (18-22). 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/DAREDEVIL #1 (1-17) 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/DAREDEVIL #1 (18-22) 
The day after CU/DD 1 (1-17). 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/X-23 #1 (1-20) 
One evening, shortly after CU/DD 1 (18-22). 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/X-23 #1 (21-22) 
The morning after CU/X 1 (1-20). 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/INVISIBLE WOMAN #1 
One day, shortly after CU/X-23 1 (21-22). 

It didn't occur to me before, but it makes sense that Bruce would head off to New York as soon as the Uni-Force asked for his help. I had figured that there was at least a day or so between leaving the woods and arriving in New York, but hey! He's the Hulk. He could have just jumped there. Good catch, Paul! 

My question is about the Silver Surfer issue: 

Quote:
>>>
The merged Surfer heads to Earth. At dawn the Surfer enters the home of Gabriel Vargas and the Uni-Power is transferred to him. As Captain Universe, Vargas is about to embark on a great mission. He thanks the Surfer and they both leave. 
<<<

Wouldn't the part that starts with "At dawn the Surfer..." be a seperate day, 'shortly after' the events of the first part of the Silver Surfer issue? If so, pg1-pg20 is all in space, and pg21-pg23 would be back on Earth at dawn. 

Everything else looks good to me! 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 23 Dec 2005 09:28 am    
By Jason Doty

Col Fury, 
The Uni-Power couldn't find Wiles on his own due to power loss, and Banner was completly worried about going to the city because of the Hulk, I doubt he agreed to get there as the Hulk. Plus he had to find the Wiles. I would seperate this at least by a day.

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Posted: 23 Dec 2005 10:46 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've edited the calendar entries based on Jason's and Col_Fury's comments. Inserting breaks in CU/H and CU/SS cause more "x"s to show up. Can someone assist with the remaining page/panel breaks?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Dec 2005 10:57 pm    
By Jason Doty

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK #1 (1-6) 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK 31 (7-22) 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/SILVER SURFER #1 (1-20) 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/SILVER SURFER #1 (21-23)

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Posted: 24 Dec 2005 02:46 am    
By Col_Fury

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK #1  FB 
One day, 22 years before CU/H 1 (7-22). 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK #1 (1-6) 
One day, weeks before CU/DD 1 (18-22). 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE/HULK #1 (7-22) 
Probably the day after CU/H 1 (1-6), and 22 years after CU/H 1-FB. 

The FlashBack seen in CU/H 1 was in the (7-22) part of the book, so that should probably get switched around.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 24 Dec 2005 10:47 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, guys. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2005 12:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm fairly sure the FB in CU/X-23 is *not* new material. I don't think they're "scraping" or polishing her claws -- this looks like the scene where they're about to cut them OUT of her, to coat with adamantium and re-insert them. 

I can try to find a matching panel from the X-23 series when I get home today, if you'd like -- but for now I wouldn't worry about it. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 69

Posted: 20 Dec 2005 02:48 pm    Post subject: New Warriors vol.3
By Jason Doty

New Warriors vol.3 no.1 

Pilot 

Night Thrasher has sold the rights to air The New Warriors as a reality T.V show so they can fight crime outside NYC because he can no longer afford it. 

Present: 
Ashley the Producer is trying to sell the show to TV executives, The footage starts out with commentary and footage, including Iceman and Cyclops fighting Sentinels (These scenes look to be from the Onslaught story line with many Sentinels in the sky), The next is of a pizza shop owner and his beat-up delivery boy, who says he tried to contact the Avengers and the cops. The lone officer goes there and gets his car smashed; he called the FF two months ago. 

Flashback- 
The New Warriors have come to the residence that the pizza boy was roughed up at, sending Speedball to the door as a delivery boy. He is met by Tiger Shark and Armadillo, who smack him around. Outside, a production crew orders Namorita and Nova in. They engage the two who are still chained together. After flying them in the air and dropping them, Nova asks Tiger Shark to surrender. He replies by using the unconscious Armadillo as a weapon. Next, Tiger Shark goes after a new member Microbe who flinches. He is saved by Night Thrasher who uses acrobatics to force Tiger Shark to become entangled in his own chain. Nova, Namorita, and Speedball then knock him out. 

Unfortunately, the camera crew was unable to get good footage and have the warriors pose the unconscious villains for retakes. 

Thrasher explains the crew and after a citizen thanks them they agree to continue. They head to Kansas. 
Present: 
The execs finish watching the pilot. 

*Notes 
Tiger Shark and Armadillo appear hear after the breakout in New Avengers. 

Day 1- Pizza delivery boy mugged, owner calls Avengers, Police officer investigates and gets car smashed, calls the FF. 

Two Months later 
Pizza owner and officer and interviewed. 

One Day-The Warriors beat down Tiger Shark and Armadillo who have been in Fairbury, Illinois. (Weather nice and sunny, crew in shorts) 

Characters: Ashley Brothers, several camera crew, Night Thrasher, Nova, Speedball, Namorita, Microbe, Tiger Shark, Armadillo)

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 03:47 pm    
By Jason Doty

New Warriors vol.3 no.2 

Animal House 

File Footage- In Salina Kansas, Millionaire John Burrows owns the largest private zoo that he lets the public enjoy. Over the summer he suddenly closed the doors and did bizarre interviews about what the animals wanted. Later the animals invaded the town stealing food and appliances. The animal control agents are powerless to stop them. 

The Warriors head to Salina arriving in the evening. One there, they are greeted by Ashley and Erika Hopkins of the Society for the Protection of Television Animals. She only allows Speedball, Microbe, Namorita, and crew member Dave to enter the zoo. 

Once inside, Namorita communicates with a Walrus who leads them into a trap. They are caged by The Red Ghosts Super Apes: Igor (Baboon), Peotor (Orangatang), and Super Strong Silver, back. They have caged the millionaire and have been using an image inducer to make interviews. 

Night Thrasher, Nova, and crew member Brad head to the rescue and fight a bunch of wildlife along the way. 

Meanwhile, Speedball tricks the Silverback and Baboon into fighting so they can distract them to escape. All the Warriors meet up and fight them. While they fight Erika enters and wants them to stop hurting the animals. 

After hearing what she is saying the Super-Apes agree to talk things out. 

File Footage- Over the next few weeks, papers are signed and the zoo reopens without cages. The Super-Apes perform shows and the Warriors are given the key to the city. 

After filming the Apes want the Warriors to take Erika with them but she is assigned to them to make sure their not exploited. 

Notes: 
The Super Apes successfully filed suit divorcing themselves from the Red Ghost and were then sent to a secret lab after. They escaped and made their way to Salina and took over, prior to the Warriors showing up. 

Characters: 
Ashley Brothers, crewmen Brad & Dave, Night Thrasher, Nova, Speedball, Namorita, Microbe, The Super-Apes.

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Posted: 20 Dec 2005 10:45 pm    
By Jason Doty

New Warriors vol.3 no.3 

How Many Super Heroes Does It Take? 

50 Miles outside Wichita, The Warriors RV gets a flat when Night Thrasher refuses to swerve for a porcupine. Unfortunately theres no spare. 

Meanwhile in New York, Ashley is still trying to sell the New Warriors, so he shows the TV executives behind the scenes footage. 

File Footage- Night Thrasher goes to Speedballs house to ask him to join the New Warriors; his mom thought he was going back to school. Hes to be the slacker. 

Back on the side of the road, Speedball and Microbe have a heart to heart. 

In New York, more footage. 

File Footage-Night Thrasher intervenes in Novas fight with crooks, Nova agrees to join. Hes the bush leaguer. 

In Kansas, Nova, Night Thrasher and, Namorita find a gas station, but the owner refuses them service because he thinks theyre ravers in costume. 

In New York, more footage. 

File Footage-Night Thrasher hires a deep ocean sub to take him to Atlantis; Namorita joins because she is board. 

In Kansas, Night Thrasher, Namorita, and Nova find a truck stop and Nova asks some ladies for help. They turn out to be prostitutes and Nova almost gets arrested. 

In New York, Ashley shows a slide show of how Microbe got on the team and how Night Thrasher lost his fortune. 

Slide show-Dwayne uses his fortune to fund research for a cure to cancer. He finds Zachary Smith who has found a cancer eating bacteria. Unfortunately, his experiments only worked for himself. His unspoilable yogurt went bad as soon as it left his presence and proved deadly by an independent study. It was discovered that his son was a mutant that could talk to germs and he was ruined. He went to Scotland to a reclusive lab to prove the world wrong. Dwayne takes in Microbe and tries to save his family fortune, the two finally hunt down Microbes father but he is dead because of messing with flesh eating bacteria. Dwayne adopts Microbe. 
Ashley tells the executives that the show is a package deal. 

In Kansas, after getting kicked out of a county, Night Thrasher, Nova, and Namorita return to the RV to find out Microbe got some bacteria to fix the tire. Ashley calls to say the show has been picked up. 

In New York, the executives want to add a member to the cast. 

Notes, all the file footage and slide shows proceed the NW3 1 issue. 

Characters: Ashley Brothers, crewmen Brad & Dave, Night Thrasher, Nova, Speedball, Namorita, Microbe.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2005 08:57 pm    
By Jason Doty

New Warriors vol.3 no.4 

Nutown, Nucar, Numember 

File Footage-German Automobile Company, Nucar, decides to build their new facility in Ponder, Michigan. They quickly apply their techniques to the surrounding town, becoming a blue collar paradise. The town changes its name to Nuponder, but not everything is as pleasant as it seems, because there are reports of missing pets and amateur footage shows a shadowy figure. 

In the evening, the Warriors are traveling to Nuponder in their RV upset because Microbe is stinking up the van. When they arrive they are greeted by the entire town. Two executives of the car company fill them in and show them new photos. It appears that Terrax is stealing the pets. 

Using one of the residents pets as bait they set and wait. Sure enough, Terrax shows up and grabs the cat, but before they can react a young black girl starts attacking him with metal debris. The Warriors try to help but cannot see due to the debris and dust. Terrax escapes. 

It turns out the young girl is a new addition to the Warriors that the executives added. Ashley and Night Thrasher argue, but Nova gets pissed and tells everyone to shut up because they are looking stupid on TV. Microbes germs tell him that Terrax is a machine. 

Leaving Debii and Microbe behind, the rest of the Warriors decide to check out the plant with cameraman Brad. Debrii and Microbe follow with cameraman Dave. 

The Warriors make it through the advanced security only to be greeted by Virginia Woolf, Sigmund Frued, who takes them to meet the others that turn out to be Albert Einstein and Leonardo DaVinci. 

Characters: Ashley Brothers, crewmen Brad & Dave, Night Thrasher, Nova, Speedball, Namorita, Microbe, Debrii, Terrax, V.Woolf, S. Frued, L. DaVinci, A. Einstein robots.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2005 10:04 pm    
By Jason Doty

New Warriors vol.3 no.5 

The New Warriors Excellent Adventure 

Continued from last issue. 

The famous individuals introduce themselves. They explain that they were using the Terrax robot to steal the pets to get the producers to send the Warriors there. 

It turns out they are the Mad Thinkers Intellectual Robots. 

As Debrii and Microbe enter the plant they are immediately taken out by the defense mechanisms. 

Display footage shows- The robots were created by the Mad Thinker, but he found them unworthy and tossed them on the street. There they lived until they decided to build a habitat and study humans to destroy them. 

After explaining the Warriors learn they were chosen because they were the least powerful super team and after they deal with them they are going to go after the Great Lakes Avengers. 

The Warriors square off against them. Nova vs. Frued, Night Thrasher vs. DaVinci, Speedball vs. Einstein, Namorita vs. Woolf. Using a devise Einstein beats the tar out of Speedball. Namorita is thrown through a wall into a molten metal station. 

Meanwhile, a recovered Debrii and Microbe recover and find a pile of debris. 

As the team seems to be on the brink of defeat, they are saved by Debrii, who takes out the male robots. Once Viginia Woolf realizes this she destroys herself in molten metal. Namorita is upset because she feels they couldnt help them. As they depart it appears members of the community are also robots and they gained valuable data. 

Characters: Ashley Brothers, crewmen Brad & Dave; all BTS, Night Thrasher, Nova, Speedball, Namorita, Microbe, Debrii, Terrax, V.Woolf, S. Frued, L. DaVinci, A. Einstein robots, Mad Thinker in f/b from view screens.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2005 11:31 pm    
By Jason Doty

New Warriors vol.3 no.6 

The Valley of the Jerks 

File Footage- The town of Smyrna, Delaware elects a new mayor, but the citizens start getting attitude with each other. A water balloon is thrown at Mayor John Peabody and it turns out he is really the Corruptor in disguise. 

The Warriors are on their way to the town to face the Corruptor and meet Ashley when they get into a car accident. The old people act strange and start hitting Speedball when he checks on their welfare. The Warriors take off and meet up with Ashley. 

They believe the townsfolk are acting strange, but Ashley believes its because these idiots just elected a super villain mayor. 

The Warriors proceed to the mayors residence and are invited in. Inside the Corruptor is using an apparatus to collect his sweat and feed plants. When the Warriors enter the greenhouse they are immediately affected and begin to fight with each other. 

The only one not fighting is Microbe who talks to the Corruptor who is upset by the corruption he gives and wants to make everyone like him so he can find a permanent home. Microbes germs start affecting him and as he goes to give the Corruptor a hug, he passes out on him smashing him through the window. The fresh air revives the Warriors. 

Later the police arrive and start detoxifying the town, the Warriors are informed that theyve been cancelled and Ashley and the crew take off. 

Later the Warriors all head home, leaving Night Thrasher looking rather depressed because his foundation seems to be in further decline. He leaves. 

Characters: Ashley Brothers, crewmen Brad & Dave, Night Thrasher, Nova, Speedball, Namorita, Microbe, Debrii, the Corruptor.

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Posted: 21 Dec 2005 11:35 pm    
By Jason Doty

The main events depicted in the series happen after the "breakout" in New Avengers and I believe end prior to the Marvel Team-Up arc with Nova. 

Does anyone want to help me with this timeline? I'm not familiar with all the characters before and afters and would appreciate any help or questions that would help flesh this series out.

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Posted: 22 Dec 2005 03:26 am    
By Col_Fury

Here're some page/panel ranges & references for issue 1: 

pg1pn1: 'Now', Four TV executives looking at a monitor. 
The monitor says "Property of the Taylor Foundation (work in progress) not for broadcast" 
pg1pn2-FB: on monitor, New York 
Sentinels flying over a bridge(with explosions on it) in New York 
pg1pn3-FB: on monitor, New York? 
Cyclops fighting Sentinels, Iceman's ice is everywhere but we don't see Iceman. 
pg1pn4-FB: on monitor, Fairbury Illinois, night 
A street in Fairbury 
pg1pn5-FB: on monitor, Fairbury, daytime 
Pizza shop owner and delivery boy talk to the camera, the owner says he tried to call the Avengers but didn't even get an answering machine. 
pg1pn6-FB: on monitor, Fairbury, daytime 
A cop talks to the camera in front of a cruiser that was destroyed by the villains. 
pg1pn7(of 7)-FB: on monitor, 90 miles East of Fairbury, dusk 
The New Warriors' van driving towards Fairbury, into the setting sun. 
pg2-pg3-FB: no longer on monitor, Fairbury, daytime 
Nova, Namorita, Night Thrasher, Speedball, & Microbe pose on the cruiser that was destroyed. 
pg4-pg18-FB: Caption reads: Pilot episode: "Fairbury, IL." Rough Footage 
Posing as a pizza boy, Speedball delivers a pizza the villains ordered, Tiger Shark and Armadillo answer the door and start a fight. 
Off to the side, Ashley & Dave(producer & editor) argue over camera angles. 
Eventually, the New Warriors win. 
pg19-pg22-FB: still in Fairbury, dusk 
The New Warriors clean up after the fight, and reshoot some camera shots. A woman thanks Namorita. 
pg23pn1-FB: on monitor 
Tiger Shark during the fight, between pg6 & pg7 
pg23pn2-FB: on monitor 
Speedball & Tiger Shark's fist during the fight, between pg23pn1 & pg7 
pg23pn3-FB: on monitor, split image 
repeats panels from pg10pn1 & pg18pn2 
pg23pn4-FB: on monitor 
repeats pg2-pg3 spread 
pg23pn5-FB: on monitor 
repeats pg21pn3 
pg23pn6(of 6)-FB: on monitor 
the New Warriors' van driving away from Fairbury 

References: 
Tiger Shark and the New Warriors mention that Tiger Shark and Armadillo escaped from the Vault recently, but the 'Most Wanted' book says they escaped from the Raft. Since the Raft replaced the Vault, perhaps the names are interchangable? 

The pizza store owner says he tried to call the Avengers, but didn't even get a machine. The 'Most Wanted' book puts this after A4 1-6, but maybe this means this is before the New Avengers go public? 

The cop mentions that Tiger Shark and Armadillo robbed the pizza store two months ago. I'm pretty sure that there's at least two months between A4 6 & A4 14-15. 

Since they're filming a TV show, it's a pretty safe bet they filmed the interviews, the posing, and the fight all in the same day. 

Green grass and green leaves on trees in Illinois. The camera crew and some kid are wearing shorts. 

pg1pn2 & pn3 show Sentinels, and Cyclops is wearing his 'Jim Lee' outfit. This has to occur at least before X-Men 97, where Cyclops merged with Apocalypse, and was the last time he wore that uniform. It's probably during 'Zero Tolerance,' where the X-men were fighting a bunch of Sentinels,(both Cyclops and Iceman were on the team at the time) which was around the mid-#60's for adjectiveless X-Men. 

Here's a reading order: 

pg1pn2-pn3: during Zero Tolerance? 
pg1pn7: driving to Fairbury-Day 1 
pg1pn4: Fairbury at night-Day 1 
pg1pn5-6: Fairbury-Day 2 
pg2-pg6: posing, then the fight!-Day 2 
pg23pn1-pn2: Tiger Shark & Speedball during the fight-Day 2 
pg7-pg22: the fight ends!-Day 2 
pg23pn6: driving away from Fairbury-Day 2 
pg1pn1: 'Now,' TV executives watching all of this-sometime later, possibly revealed in a later issue 

It's a pretty tricky series to keep straight, with it being in a reality TV show type of format. When was it filmed?, when did it happen when compared to when people are watching the footage?, etc.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 22 Dec 2005 08:03 am    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
pg1pn2 & pn3 show Sentinels, and Cyclops is wearing his 'Jim Lee' outfit. This has to occur at least before X-Men 97, where Cyclops merged with Apocalypse, and was the last time he wore that uniform. It's probably during 'Zero Tolerance,' where the X-men were fighting a bunch of Sentinels,(both Cyclops and Iceman were on the team at the time) which was around the mid-#60's for adjectiveless X-Men.  


Er, no. Doesn't work. They were in seperate legs of that crossover. 
Cyclops was among the X-Men taken out by Bastion in X-MEN #65 just at the start of OZT. He spends the rest of it around some secret base in the desert in WOLVERINE #115-118, and doesn't come back to the Mansion until X-MEN #70. 
Iceman had at this point retired of being an X-Man, but comes back into action in X-MEN #66-69 because of OZT. He's nearly on his own, with some help from Marrow and Cecilia Reyes. He stays around New York and then proceeds to defeat Bastion, never coming anywhere close to where Cyclops and the others are. 
The point the two of them come together is in X-MEN #70, when the Sentinels are already defeated. 
Anyway, weren't the sentinels in OZT completely different from the previous models ? The "Prime sentinels" were human-sized cyborgs which looked like Bastion. 

For all this reasons, it should be another occasion. Maybe Onslaught ?

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Posted: 22 Dec 2005 12:42 pm   
By Col_Fury

Onslaught sounds more likely.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2005 12:46 pm    
By Jason Doty

Okay here is my New Warriors Break Down complete, tell me what you think? 

Footage of famous robots interacting with Mad Thinker. 
NW3 5 (3p6,5p2) 

Footage of Mad Thinker tossing out the famous robots. 
NW3 5 (5p3) 

Footage of famous robots living like homeless. 
NW3 5 (5p4) 

Newspaper photo of Dwayne Taylor becoming owner of company after parents die turns it into benevolent corporation matching pharmaceutical pay for researchers. 
NW3 3 (15p1) 

Footage of New York City under attack and Iceman and Cyclops battling Sentinels (I believe this is during Onslaught) 
NW3 1 (1p2-p3) 

Footage of a nice private zoo in Salina, Kansas. 
NW3 2 (1p1-p2) 

Nucar builds factory in Ponder, Michigan.-BTS 

Footage of Nuponder. 
NW3 5 (5p5) 

Newspaper photo of cancer researcher making a discovery. 
NW3 3 (15p2) 

Newspaper: Dwayne Taylor visits stock exchange, becomes Wall Street darling. 
NW3 3 (15p3) 

Super-Apes successfully file suit divorcing them from Red Ghost. 
NW3 2-BTS 

Newspaper: Cancer yogurt spoils, found to be deadly, Taylor Stock plummets. 
NW3 3 (16p1) 

Super-Apes shipped to secret lab, then escape. 
NW3 2-BTS 

Newspaper: Scientists son found to be mutant, disowns son, moves to Scotland to prove world wrong. 
NW3 3 (16p2-p3) 

Night Thrasher files paperwork to adopt Microbe. 
NW3 3-BTS 

Newspaper: Dwayne Taylor tries to reconcile company. 
NW3 3 (17p1) 

Newspaper: Microbes father found dead. 
NW3 3 (17p2) 

Unspecified amount of time for Super-Apes to make it from lab to Kansas. 
NW3 2-BTS 

Footage of Night Thrasher recruiting Speedball 
NW3 3 (5p3-6p5) 

Footage of Night Thrasher recruiting Nova. 
NW3 3 (8p2-9) (I think Nova appears in Marvel Team-Up after this and says that Thrash is reforming the Warriors.) 

Corruptor, Tiger Shark and Armadillo make a break from the raft in New Avengers. (Its 870 milies from NYC to Fairbury, IL acording to mapquest 870 miles.) 

A day or two later they rough-up the pizza boy, his boss calls the Avengers and cops, cop responds gets his car smashed calls the FF. 
NW3 1-BTS 

Corruptor evades capture during Spider-Man: Breakout. 

Footage of Night Thrasher recruiting Namorita. 
NW3 3 (11p3-13) 

A zoo in Kansas is taken over, and doors are shut. 
NW3 2 (1p3) 

Mr. Burrows gives recorded interview (really hes an ape). 
NW3 2 (1p4) 

Footage of animals from zoo raiding a convience store. 
NW3 2 (1p5) 

Footage of scared Animal Control Officer. 
NW3 2 (1p6) 

The Warriors RV is filmed 90 miles outside Fairbury, Illinois. 
NW3 1 (1p7) (same day as next) 

Two months later the Warriors crew interviews the three and obtains footage. 
NW3 1 (1p4-p6) (same day) 

The Warriors go to the neighborhood and send Speedball to the door as the pizza boy, they engage and defeat Tiger Shark and Armadillo while the crew tries to get footage, then repose the villains for the pilot, that evening they head to next town. 
NW3 1 (2-22) (same day) 

Unspecified amount of time for the Warriors to drive from Illinois to Kansas. (Fairbury IL to Salina, KS acording to mapquest 614, 9hrs 30 minutes) 

New Warriors arrive at zoo in the evening, they are greeted by Ashley and rep from S.P.O.T.A rep, they head in fight the animals and confront super apes, a compromise is worked out. 
NW3 2 (2-21) 

Zoo is reopened, Warriors stay for two weeks, given the key to the city. 
NW3 2 (22-23) 

Unspecified amount of time for Ashley to fly to New York and Warriors to make it from Salina to 50 miles outside Wichita. (Probally the day before day 1) (30 miles acording to mapquest) 

Day 1- Ashley tries to sell show through his production company, in New York. 
NW3 1 (1p1, p23)-Daytime 
Day 1-Warriors break down 50 miles outside Wichita, KS 
NW3 3 (1-3) 
Day 1-Ashley still trying to convince executives, shows Speedball footage. 
NW3 3 (4-5) 
Day 1-Speedball and Microbe talk. 
NW3 3 (7) 
Day1-Ashley still trying to convince executives, shows Nova footage. 
NW3 3 (8-9) 
Day 1-Night Thrasher, Nova, Namorita refused service at gas station. 
NW3 3 (10) 
Day 1-Ashley still trying to convince executives, shows Namorita footage. 
NW3 3 (11-13) 
Day 1-Night Thrasher, Namorita, Nova head to truck stop; Nova almost gets arrested. 
NW3 3 (14) 
Day 1-Ashley shows slide show to executives about Microbe and Night Thrasher and tells executives to take show or leave it. 
NW3 3 (15-17) 
Day 1-Dusk, Ashley calls Warriors, Microbe fixes tire, Nova and other two return, the shows on, New Warriors head to next stop. 
NW3 3 (18-19) 
Day 1-Evening, Executives plan for new member. 
NW3 3 (20) 

Unspecified amount of time for first episodes to air and Mad Thinker Robots to watch them. 
NW3 5-BTS 

File footage of a disguised Corruptor getting elected mayor and being discovered. 
NW3 6 (1) 

File footage of Nuponder, Michigan and strange happenings, used to lore the Warriors there. 
NW3 4 (1) 

Unspecified amount of time to recruit Debrii and send her to Nuponder, Michigan. 

Unspecified of time to travel from Kansas to Nuponder. 
(This is a fictional place but it takes 15 hrs to get from Wichita to Flint, MI 976 miles according to mapquest) 

New Warriors arrive in Nuponder, set trap, fight Terrax robot, meet new member and research plant. 
NW3 4 (2-22) continued 

New Warriors learn about famous robots, fight them, and leave. 
NW3 5 (1-23) 

Unspeculated amount of time for the Warriors to drive to Smyrna, Delaware. (Flint, MI to Smyrna, DE is 667 miles and 10 hrs according to mapquest) 

New Warriors arrive in Smyrna, confront and defeat the Corruptor, find out show is cancelled and return home. 
NW3 6 (2-22)

Last edited by Jason Doty on 23 Dec 2005 10:20 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 22 Dec 2005 03:12 pm    
By lkseitz

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
After explaining the Warriors learn they were chosen because they were the least powerful super team and after they deal with them they are going to go after the Great Lakes Avengers. 
<<<

Ouch! That's cold.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 22 Dec 2005 05:40 pm    
By Jason Doty

I edited my timeline, check it out and make suggestions.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2005 11:44 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've taken Jason's notes and reorganized and reformatted them into a chronological series of calendar-type entries. I also added some of my own notes about various characters' chronologies. The bulk of this series fits pretty nicely between late May and mid-August -- between the Raft breakout in late May and HOM in September. The relationships between this series and M/TU3, FOES, and SM:B work out pretty well, too. As you can see, I still need some help with a FB or BTS in NW3 1 and with page 1 of NW3 6. Please let me know if anything's wrong. 


NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (15p1) 
One day. Newspaper photo of Dwayne Taylor becoming owner of company after parents die turns it into benevolent corporation matching pharmaceutical pay for researchers. (Seen before?) 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #1  FB (1p2-1p3) 
Footage of New York City under attack and Iceman and Cyclops battling Sentinels (I believe this is during Onslaught). Cyclops is wearing his Jim Lee outfit. This has to occur at least before X 97, where Cyclops merged with Apocalypse, and was the last time he wore that uniform. Its probably during Zero Tolerance, in which the X-Men were fighting a bunch of Sentinels (both Cyclops and Iceman were on the team at the time), which was around the mid-#60s for adjectiveless X-Men. (How does this fit into previously published scenes?) 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #5  FB (3p6, 5p2) 
One day. The Mad Thinker interacts with his Intellectual Robots. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #5  FB (5p3) 
One day. The Mad Thinker finds his Intellectual Robots to be unworthy and tosses out on the street. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #5  FB (5p4) 
One day. The Mad Thinkers Intellectual Robots live on the street. 

[BTS] 
One day. As noted in NW3 2, the Super-Apes successfully file suit divorcing them from the Red Ghost. I place this after DL 2. 

[BTS] 
One day. As noted in NW3 2, the Super-Apes are shipped to a secret lab, then escape. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #2  FB (1p1-1p2) 
One day. Footage of a nice private zoo in Salina, Kansas. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #5  FB (5p5) 
One day. Footage of Nuponder, Michigan. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (15p2) 
One day. This flashback probably occurs after S-H3 5. Dwayne Taylor uses his fortune to fund research for a cure to cancer. He finds Zachary Smith who has found a cancer-eating bacteria, as shown in this newspaper photo. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (15p3) 
One day. As captured in a newspaper photo, Dwayne Taylor visits the stock exchange and becomes a Wall Street darling. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (16p1) 
One day. As shown in a newspaper, Zachary Smiths experiments only work for himself; his unspoilable yogurt went bad as soon as it left his presence and proves deadly in an independent study. Taylor stock plummets. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (16p2-16p3) 
One day. As noted in a newspaper, Zachary Smiths son, Microbe, is found to be mutant who can talk to germs. Smith disowns his son and moves to Scotland to prove world wrong. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (17p1) 
One day. As noted in a newspaper, Dwayne tries to save his family fortune. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (17p2) 
One day. As noted in a newspaper, Dwayne and Microbe discover Zachary Smith dead because of his messing with flesh-eating bacteria. 

[BTS] 
One day. As noted in NW3 3, Night Thrasher files paperwork to adopt Microbe. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #1  FB (?) or [BTS]? 
One day, a day or two after A4 3-FB. It is two months before NW3 1. Raft escapees (mistakenly identified as Vault escapees) Tiger Shark and Armadillo rough up a pizza delivery boy, whose boss calls the cops and tries to call the Avengers (apparently not knowing or remembering that they disbanded). A cop responds and gets his car smashed, so he calls the FF. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (5p3-6p5) 
One day. Night Thrasher recruits Speedball for the new incarnation of the New Warriors. Speedballs mom thought he was going back to school. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (8p2-9) 
One day. Night Thrasher recruits Nova, which places this flashback shortly before M/TU3 11. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #3  FB (11p3-13) 
One day. Night Thrasher hires a deep ocean sub to take him to Atlantis and recruits Namorita, who joins because she is bored. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #2  FB (1p3) 
One summer day. A zoo in Salina, Kansas is taken over and the doors are shut. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #2  FB (1p4) 
One day. A Super Ape posing as zoo owner John Burrows gives a bizarre recorded interview about the wants of the zoo animals. 
NW3 2 (1p4) 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #2  FB (1p5-1p6) 
One day. As captured on film, animals from the Salina zoo raid a convenience store. The animal control officer is powerless to stop them. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #1  FB (1p7) 
One day. This flashback must occur after M/TU3 13. Night Thrasher has sold the rights to air The New Warriors as a reality TV show so they can fight crime outside NYC because he can no longer afford it. The Warriors RV is filmed 90 miles outside Fairbury, Illinois. 
NEW WARRIORS v3 #1 (1p4) 
The same night as NW3 1-FB (1p7). A shot of Fairbury as filmed by the Warriors crew on arrival. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #1  FB (1p5-23) 
The day after NW3 1-FB (1p7). This segment occurs two months after NW3 1-FB and must occur before ASMU2 12-FB (6p1). The Warriors crew interview the pizza shop owner, delivery boy, and cop. The New Warriors arrive at the residence where the pizza boy was roughed up. They send Speedball to the door as a delivery boy. He is met by Tiger Shark and Armadillo, who smack him around. Outside, a production crew orders Namorita and Nova in. They engage the two, who are still chained together after escaping the Raft. After flying them in the air and dropping them, Nova asks Tiger Shark to surrender. He replies by using the unconscious Armadillo as a weapon. Tiger Shark goes after new member Microbe but he is saved by Night Thrasher, who uses acrobatics to force Tiger Shark to become entangled in his own chain. Nova, Namorita, and Speedball then knock him out. The camera crew was unable to get good footage for the Warriors pilot episode and have the Warriors pose the unconscious villains for retakes. Thrasher explains the crew and after a citizen thanks them they agree to continue. They head to Kansas. Green grass and trees in Illinois and the crew is in shorts. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #2 (2-21) 
Probably the night of the day after NW3 1-FB (1-23). It is two weeks before NW3 2 (22-23). The Warriors arrive in Salina, KS and are greeted by their producer Ashley and Erika Hopkins of the Society for the Protection of Television Animals. Erika allows only Speedball, Microbe, Namorita, and crew member Dave to enter the zoo. Once inside, Namorita communicates with a walrus who leads them into a trap. The Super Apes caged them with John Burrows. Night Thrasher, Nova, and crew member Brad head to the rescue and fight a bunch of wildlife along the way. Speedball tricks the silverback and baboon into fighting so they can distract them to escape. All the Warriors meet up and fight them, but Erika enters and wants them to stop hurting the animals. After hearing her the Super-Apes agree to talk things out. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #2 (22-23) 
One day, two weeks after NW3 2 (2-21). Papers are signed and the zoo reopens without cages. The Super Apes perform shows and the Warriors are given the key to Salina. After filming, the Apes want the Warriors to take Erika with them but she is assigned to them to make sure theyre not exploited. After this, I presume that the apes rejoin Red Ghost to appear in FOES 5 (1-18). 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #1 
Probably the day after NW3 2 (22-23). TV executives watch the video pilot for the New Warriors TV show. 
NEW WARRIORS v3 #3 (1-20)The same day as NW3 1. Using a slide show, Ashley continues to try to sell the Warriors show through his production company in New York. The Warriors RV breaks down 50 miles outside Wichita. Speedball and Microbe have a heart to heart. Night Thrasher, Nova, and Namorita are refused service at a gas station. They head to a truck stop and Nova almost gets arrested for being with prostitutes. At dusk, the quartet return to the RV to find out Microbe got some bacteria to fix the tire. Ashley calls to say the show has been picked up. That evening, executives plan for new member. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #6  FB (1px) 
One day, sometime after SM:B 5. The town of Smyrna, Delaware elects a new mayor, John Peabody, who is secretly the Corruptor. It doesnt need to be a regular election time, as the citizens are mind-controlled. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #6  FB (1px) 
One day. The citizens of Smyrna start getting attitude with each other. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #6  FB (1px) 
One day. When a water balloon is thrown at Mayor Peabody, he is shown to be the Corruptor in disguise. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #4  FB (1px) 
One day. An amateur video shows a shadowy figure at a time when pets are reported missing in Nuponder, Michigan. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #4 
One evening. The Warriors arrive in Nuponder and are greeted by the entire town. Two executives of the car company fill them in and show them new photos. It appears that Terrax is stealing the pets. Using a residents pets as bait, they set and wait. Terrax shows up and grabs the cat, but before they can react a young girl starts attacking him with metal debris. The Warriors try to help but cannot see because of the debris and dust. Terrax escapes. The girl turns out to be Debrii, the executives new addition to the Warriors. Ashley and Night Thrasher argue, but Nova tells everyone to shut up because they are looking stupid on TV. Microbes germs tell him that Terrax is a machine. Leaving Debii and Microbe behind, the rest of the Warriors decide to check out the plant with cameraman Brad. Debrii and Microbe follow with cameraman Dave. The Warriors make it through the advanced security only to be greeted by Virginia Woolf and Sigmund Freud, who take them to meet Albert Einstein and Leonardo DaVinci. 
NEW WARRIORS v3 #5 
The same day as NW3 4. The famous individuals introduce and explain that they were using the Terrax robot to steal the pets to get the producers to send the Warriors there. They identify themselves as the Mad Thinkers Intellectual Robots and explain the Warriors learn they were chosen because they were the least powerful super team (and after they deal with them they plan to go after the Great Lakes Avengers). The Warriors square off against them. Einstein beats the tar out of Speedball and Namorita is thrown through a wall into a molten metal station. Meanwhile, as Debrii and Microbe enter the plant they are taken out by the defense mechanisms. They recover and find a pile of debris. As the Warriors approach the brink of defeat, they are saved by Debrii, who takes out the male robots. Woolf destroys herself in molten metal. Namorita is upset because she feels they couldnt help them. As the heroes depart, it appears members of the community are also robots. 

NEW WARRIORS v3 #6 
Probably the day after NW3 5. This story probably occurs before TB2 12 (1-19). On their way to Smyrna, the Warriors get into a car accident. The old people act strange and start hitting Speedball when he checks on their welfare. The Warriors take off and meet up with Ashley. They believe the townsfolk are acting strange, but Ashley believes its because these idiots just elected a super-villain mayor. The Warriors proceed to the mayors residence and are invited in. When the Warriors enter the greenhouse they are immediately affected by the Corruptor and begin to fight each other. The only one not fighting is Microbe, who talks to the Corruptor who just wants to make everyone like him so he can find a permanent home. Microbes germs start affecting him and as he goes to give the Corruptor a hug, he passes out on him smashing him through the window. The fresh air revives the Warriors. Later, the police arrive and start detoxifying the town, the Warriors are informed that their show has been cancelled, and Ashley and the crew take off. Later the Warriors all head home, leaving Night Thrasher looking depressed because his foundation seems to be in further decline.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2005 01:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'd place Nova's appearances in MTU3 #11-13 between the FB in NW3 #3 where he's re-recruited by Thrash, and the bulk of this series. 

In the FB, Thrash approaches Nova about getting the Warriors back together. Nova is noncomittal. 

In the MTU arc, Nova states "I think the Warriors are getting back together." 

In NW3, the Warriors are indeed back together -- and by my reading of #6, they break up yet again by the end of the arc. 

Therefore I think the MTU reference works best between Thrash's recruitment attempt and the Warriors' short stint as reality stars. 

For what it's worth, Speedball mentions Microbe in MTU3 #15 -- placing that arc (if any of it remains canon after the inevitable time-travel-reset-button is pressed) likely after the NW3 series. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Dec 2005 03:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'd place Nova's appearances in MTU3 #11-13 between the FB in NW3 #3 where he's re-recruited by Thrash, and the bulk of this series.  
<<<

Yup. That's where it is.  


Quote: 
>>>
For what it's worth, Speedball mentions Microbe in MTU3 #15 -- placing that arc (if any of it remains canon after the inevitable time-travel-reset-button is pressed) likely after the NW3 series.  
<<<

Yup. That's where it is. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 70

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 08:31 pm    Post subject: Nightcrawler vol.3 no.7-11
By Jason Doty

Nightcrawler vol.3 #7 

The Winding Way Part 1 

One Evening, Beast, Emma Frost, Iceman and Christine Palmer attempt to resuscitate Nightcrawler who became comatose while being operated on do to injuries he received during a battle with Vermin. While unconscious Nightcrawler travels and interacts with various aspects from his life. In the depths of his memory, he comes across a trunk, and is about to open it, until Emma telepathically pulls him back to consciousness. 

Nightcrawler vol.3 #8 

The Winding Way Part 2 

One day at the Xavier Institute, Storm and Beast interrogate Vermin as to why he attacked Nightcrawler, but he says nothing. From a room outside Emma tells Cyclops and Iceman that he really does not know why he did and a third party might be involved. 

Meanwhile, Nightcrawler, Wolverine and Christine Palmer are traveling through Bavaria. Nightcrawler remembers his childhood. 

Flashback- Nightcrawler takes his first steps to his foster mother Margali Szardos as his foster brother Stephen watches. 

The three continue walking until nightfall. 

That evening, after Wolverine retires Kurt explains more of his past to Christine. 

Flashback- Kurt is surprised that his foster brother has found him in the woods. Kurt confides in him and shows him his ability to teleport. He asks how he can do this but Kurt does not know. He tells Kurt that he is not the only one with secrets and the two spy on Margali who is practicing magic. He is worried he and his sister may also become corrupt and asks Kurt to promise to hell stop him if he ever does. 

Nightcrawler tells her more before they fall asleep. 

Flashback- Kurt speaks with his foster sister, Jimaine (Amanda), before she is about to perform. During the performance she misses the trapeze and Kurt teleports to save her in-front of the entire crowd. At center-stage they share a kiss. 

The next morning the three continue on their journey. As they come over a ridge they see Nightcrawlers former circus ablaze. 

Nightcrawler vol.3 #9 

The Winding Way Part 3 

In Limbo, Margali comes looking for her daughter, Magik, and finds her being tortured by Nightmare. 

That same morning, Nightcrawler, Wolverine and Christine Palmer search the destroyed Winzeldorf circus and find several survivors among the dead. One survivor is, Feur the fire eater, who tells them that creatures and monsters came and destroyed everything, looking for a sword, and that they are headed for another circus in Florida. Kurt knows this circus in Florida and has several memories about it, for it is where he spent a short time in-between Germany and joining the X-Men. Wolverine radios Cyclops, who arrives with the Blackbird and transports the injured to a hospital in Munich. While Cyclops is tending to the wounded, Kurt, Logan and Christine then take the Blackbird without Cyclops knowing and head for Florida. On the plane Nightcrawler remembers his time in Florida. 

Flashback-Nightcrawler and several others arrive in Florida and Nightcrawler is drugged by the owner and put on display as a freak. A young boy named Philip views him in the cage. That evening he sneaks in and frees him because he feels sorry for him and the boys also a mutant that can sense other mutants. Four days later Nightcrawler returns to the carnival to confront Jardine and tell him to change. 

Once reaching Florida, Nightcrawler skydives and uses a special glider to make it to the swamp carnival while Wolverine and Christine park the Blackbird. Once he reaches the circus he hunts for Jardine to warn him about the coming terror. 

In Limbo, Margali and a wounded Magik interrogate Nightmare who does not know why he attacked her. Suspecting he was used the three team-up to find out who. 

Meanwhile at the circus, Nightcrawler finds Jardine and warns him but he does not care, but just then an army of possessed show up including Man-Thing, Carrion, Gator, and Zombies. 

Nightcrawler vol.3 #10 

The Winding Way Part 4 

As Nightcrawler still tries to convince Jardine to leave the circus, the Man-Thing attacks them. Kurt rescues with his former captor, and discovers other beings attacking the circus. Kurt attacks Gator who is attacking the circus strongman. Seeing others about to die, he then attacks Carrion. Luckily Christine and Wolverine show up. Interagating Carrion he finds they are after the Soulsword but Nightcrawler says he does not have it. During the battle, everyone except Kurt, Logan, Christine and Jardine are put into a deep sleep, by Nightmare, Magik, and Margali who arrive in the nick of time. Magik informs Kurt of an imbalance on a cosmic-scale that is taking place. Kurt gets frustrated by the usual way Amanda doesnt answer his questions. Margali reveals that an incredibly powerful source is working behind the scenes to get to the Soulsword through Kurt. Nightcrawler points out that Amanda is supposed to have the Soulsword, but Amanda reveals that sometime ago, she hid it within him so evil could not get it. Margali withdraws the Soulsword from Kurt and Jardine asks if he can hold it. When she refuses, millions of flies pour from him and attack the group. Kurt warns everyone to cover their eyes and ears while the flies swarm around them. When it is all over, Wolverine stabs Christine, he is now possessed by the entity known as Hive. He vows to kill them all to get the Soulsword. 

Nightcrawler vol.3 #11 

The Winding Way Conclusion 

Nightcrawler teleports the Hive-possessed Wolverine away before he can injure anyone else, while Magik tends to the wounded Christine Palmer. Nightcrawler and the Hive possessed Wolverine battle. During the battle Nightcrawler remembers the past. 

Flashback- Several days after leaving Jardines circus, Kurt phones Amanda who tells him Stephen has gone mad. As soon as Nightcrawler makes it back to Germany he confronts his foster brother who has murdered several people. Kurt remembers his pact and kills his Stephen, who seems to have been possessed by Hive. 
Nightcrawler teleports the Hive-Wolverine to the top of a rollercoaster and twists his neck, then teleports to check on the others. Magik has stabilized Christine. Nightmare finds where Wolverines displaced consciousness was sent and Margali tell Kurt to defeat Hive with the Soulsword. Nightcrawler returns to Hive whose Wolverine body has healed. Hive leaves Wolverines body and Nightcrawler finds the demon among the insects. Kurt tries to get info but Hive is then killed, by the one orchestrating this affair. Wolverine returns to normal and Kurt rejoins his friends. He learns Christine will be safe, and the others believe it is all over, but Nightcrawler knows better.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2005 10:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Jason. Thanks for the analysis. I've done some reformatting and need to know how to fill in the "x"s with page and panel ranges. Are any of the flashbacks re-tellings of already published material? Is Kurt's fight with Vermin BTS or is that from issue #6? 


NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8  FB (x-xx) 
One day. Kurt takes his first steps to his foster mother Margali Szardos as his foster brother Stephen watches. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8  FB (xx-xxx) 
One day. Kurt is surprised that his foster brother has found him in the woods. Kurt confides in him and shows him his ability to teleport. He asks how he can do this but Kurt does not know. He tells Kurt that he is not the only one with secrets and the two spy on Margali who is practicing magic. He is worried he and his sister may also become corrupt and asks Kurt to promise to hell stop him if he ever does. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8  FB (xxxx-xxxxx) 
One day. Kurt speaks with his foster sister, Jimaine (Amanda), before she is about to perform. During the performance she misses the trapeze and Kurt teleports to save her in front of the entire crowd. At center stage they share a kiss. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9  FB (x-xx) 
One day, four days before NC3 9-FB (xxx-xxxx). Nightcrawler and several others arrive in Florida. Kurt is drugged by the circus owner, Jardine, and is put on display as a freak. A young boy named Philip views him in the cage. That evening he sneaks in and frees him because he feels sorry for him. The boy is a mutant who can detect other mutants. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9  FB (xxx-xxxx) 
One day, four days after NC3 9-FB (x-xx) and several days before NC3 11-FB. Nightcrawler returns to the carnival to confront Jardine and tell him to change. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #11  FB 
One day, several days after NC3 9-FB (xxx-xxxx). Kurt phones Amanda, who tells him Stephen has gone mad. As soon as Kurt makes it back to Germany, he confronts his foster brother who has murdered several people. Kurt remembers his pact and kills Stephen, who seems to have been possessed by Hive. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #7 
One evening. This story occurs after A4 3-FB. Beast, Emma Frost, Iceman, and Christine Palmer attempt to resuscitate Nightcrawler who became comatose while being operated on because of injuries he received during a battle with Vermin. While unconscious, Nightcrawler interacts with various aspects from his life. In the depths of his memory, he comes across a trunk and is about to open it, but Emma telepathically pulls him back to consciousness. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8 (1-x) 
One day. At the Xavier Institute, Storm and Beast interrogate Vermin about why he attacked Nightcrawler, but he says nothing. From a room outside, Emma tells Cyclops and Iceman that he really does not know why he did and a third party might be involved. Meanwhile, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, and Christine Palmer travel through Bavaria and Kurt remembers his childhood. That evening after Wolverine retires, Kurt explains more of his past to Christine. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8 (x-xx) 
The morning after NC3 8 (1-x). Kurt, Logan, and Christine continue their journey. As they come over a ridge they see Nightcrawlers former circus ablaze. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9 
The same day as NC3 8 (x-xx). Margali comes to Limbo looking for her daughter, Magik, and finds her being tortured by Nightmare. Nightcrawler, Wolverine, and Christine Palmer search the destroyed Winzeldorf circus and find several survivors, one of whom, Feur the fire-eater, tells them that creatures and monsters came looking for a sword and destroyed everything, and that they are headed for another circus in Florida. Kurt knows this circus in Florida and has several memories about it, for it is where he spent a short time between Germany and joining the X-Men. Wolverine radios Cyclops, who arrives with the Blackbird and transports the injured to a hospital in Munich. While Cyclops is tending to the wounded, Kurt, Logan, and Christine take the Blackbird without Cyclops knowledge and head for Florida. On the plane, Nightcrawler remembers his time in Florida. On reaching Florida, Nightcrawler uses a special glider to make it to the swamp carnival while Logan and Christine park the Blackbird. Once Kurt reaches the circus, he hunts for Jardine to warn him about the coming terror. In Limbo, Margali and a wounded Magik interrogate Nightmare who does not know why he attacked her. Suspecting he was used, the three team up to find out whos responsible. At the circus, Nightcrawler finds Jardine and warns him but he does not care. Just then an army of possessed show up including Man-Thing, Carrion, Gator, and zombies. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #10 
The same day as NC3 9. As Nightcrawler still tries to convince Jardine to leave the circus, the Man-Thing attacks them. Kurt attacks Gator, then Carrion. Christine and Wolverine show up. Carrion says they are after the Soulsword, but Kurt says he does not have it. During the battle, everyone except Kurt, Logan, Christine, and Jardine are put into a deep sleep by Nightmare, Magik, and Margali, who arrive in the nick of time. Magik informs Kurt of an imbalance on a cosmic scale and Kurt gets frustrated by the usual way Amanda doesnt answer his questions. Margali reveals that an incredibly powerful source is working behind the scenes to get to the Soulsword through Kurt. Nightcrawler points out that Amanda is supposed to have the Soulsword, but Amanda reveals that sometime ago, she hid it within him so evil could not get it. Margali withdraws the Soulsword from Kurt and Jardine asks if he can hold it. When she refuses, millions of flies pour from him and attack the group. Kurt warns everyone to cover their eyes and ears while the flies swarm around them. When its all over, Wolverine stabs Christine; he is now possessed by the entity known as Hive. He vows to kill them all to get the Soulsword. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #11 
The same day as NC3 10. Nightcrawler teleports the Hive-possessed Wolverine away before he can injure anyone else while Magik tends to the wounded Christine. Kurt teleports Logan to the top of a rollercoaster and twists his neck, then teleports to check on the others. Magik has stabilized Christine. Nightmare finds where Wolverines displaced consciousness was sent and Margali tells Kurt to defeat Hive with the Soulsword. Nightcrawler returns to Hive, whose Wolverine body has healed. Hive leaves Logans body and Nightcrawler finds the demon among the insects. Kurt tries to get info but Hive is then killed by the one orchestrating this affair. Wolverine returns to normal and Kurt rejoins his friends. He learns Christine will be safe and the others believe it is all over, but Kurt knows better.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Dec 2005 11:40 pm    
By Jason Doty

Kurts fight with Vermin was BTS 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8  FB (4p4-5p4) 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8  FB (7p4-p5,8p2-12) 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8  FB (13p4-17) 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9  FB (7p2, 9p4-11p4,12) 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9  FB (15,16p2-p4) 

All these are prior to Nightcrawler joining the X-Men in GSX 1 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8 (1-18) 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8 (19-22) 

Many of the older flashbacks add material to already established events, from memory UX@4, UO, XCAL -1

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Posted: 28 Dec 2005 02:55 am    
By Col_Fury

Here are a handfull of references that may or may not help... 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8  FB (4p4-5p4) 
One day. Kurt takes his first steps to his foster mother Margali Szardos as his foster brother Stephen watches. Green grass and trees in Germany. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8  FB (7p4-7p5) 
One day. Kurt is surprised that his foster brother has found him in the woods. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8 - FB (8p2-12) 
Kurt confides in him and shows him his ability to teleport. He asks how he can do this but Kurt does not know. He tells Kurt that he is not the only one with secrets and the two spy on Margali who is practicing magic. He is worried he and his sister may also become corrupt and asks Kurt to promise to hell stop him if he ever does. Green grass and trees in Germany. Full moon. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8  FB (13p4-17) 
One day. Kurt speaks with his foster sister, Jimaine (Amanda), before she is about to perform. During the performance she misses the trapeze and Kurt teleports to save her in front of the entire crowd. At center stage they share a kiss. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9  FB (7p2) 
One day, Nightcrawler and several others arrive in Florida. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9 - FB (9p4-10) 
Kurt is drugged by the circus owner, Jardine. Green grass and trees in Florida. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9 - FB (11p1-11p4) 
One day, four days before NC3 9-FB (15). Kurt is now on display as a freak. A young boy named Philip views him in the cage. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9 - FB (12) 
That evening, Phillip sneaks in and frees Kurt because he feels sorry for him. Phillip is a mutant who can detect other mutants. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9  FB (15) 
One day, four days after NC3 9-FB (11p1-11p4) and a few days before NC3 11-FB. Nightcrawler returns to the carnival. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9 -FB (16p2-16p4) 
He confronts Jardine and tells him to change his ways. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #11  FB 
One day, a few days after NC3 9-FB (15). Kurt phones Amanda, who tells him Stephen has gone mad. As soon as Kurt makes it back to Germany, he confronts his foster brother who has murdered several people. Kurt remembers his pact and kills Stephen, who seems to have been possessed by Hive. Full moon over Germany. 

-Giant-Size X-Men #1- 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #7 
One evening. This story occurs after A4 3-FB. Beast, Emma Frost, Iceman, and Christine Palmer attempt to resuscitate Nightcrawler who became comatose while being operated on because of injuries he received during a battle with Vermin. While unconscious, Nightcrawler interacts with various aspects from his life. In the depths of his memory, he comes across a trunk and is about to open it, but Emma telepathically pulls him back to consciousness. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8 (1-2) 
Probably the same night as NC3 7. At the Xavier Institute, Storm and Beast interrogate Vermin about why he attacked Nightcrawler, but he says nothing. From a room outside, Emma tells Cyclops and Iceman that he really does not know why he did what he did, and that a third party might be involved. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8 (3-18) 
One day, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, and Christine Palmer travel through Bavaria and Kurt remembers his childhood. That evening after Wolverine retires, Kurt explains more of his past to Christine. Green grass and trees in Germany. Full moon. 

NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #8 (19-22) 
The morning after NC3 8 (3-18). Kurt, Logan, and Christine continue their journey. As they come over a ridge they see Nightcrawlers former circus ablaze. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #9 
The same day as NC3 8 (19-22). Margali comes to Limbo looking for her daughter, Magik, and finds her being tortured by Nightmare. Nightcrawler, Wolverine, and Christine Palmer search the destroyed Winzeldorf circus and find several survivors, one of whom, Feur the fire-eater, tells them that creatures and monsters came looking for a sword and destroyed everything, and that they are headed for another circus in Florida. Kurt knows this circus in Florida and has several memories about it, for it is where he spent a short time between Germany and joining the X-Men. Wolverine radios Cyclops, who arrives with the Blackbird and transports the injured to a hospital in Munich. While Cyclops is talking on the phone with Emma Frost, Kurt, Logan, and Christine take the Blackbird without Cyclops knowledge and head for Florida. On the plane, Nightcrawler remembers his time in Florida. On reaching Florida, Nightcrawler uses a special glider to make it to the swamp carnival while Logan and Christine park the Blackbird. Once Kurt reaches the circus, he hunts for Jardine to warn him about the coming terror. In Limbo, Margali and a wounded Magik interrogate Nightmare who does not know why he attacked her. Suspecting he was used, the three team up to find out whos responsible. At the circus, Nightcrawler finds Jardine and warns him but he does not care. Just then an army of possessed show up including Man-Thing, Carrion, Gator, and zombies. Green grass and trees in Germany, Florida, and New York. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #10 
The same day as NC3 9. As Nightcrawler still tries to convince Jardine to leave the circus, the Man-Thing attacks them. Kurt attacks Gator, then Carrion. Christine and Wolverine show up. Carrion says they are after the Soulsword, but Kurt says he does not have it. During the battle, everyone except Kurt, Logan, Christine, and Jardine are put into a deep sleep by Nightmare, Magik, and Margali, who arrive in the nick of time. Magik informs Kurt of an imbalance on a cosmic scale and Kurt gets frustrated by the usual way Amanda doesnt answer his questions. Margali reveals that an incredibly powerful source is working behind the scenes to get to the Soulsword through Kurt. Nightcrawler points out that Amanda is supposed to have the Soulsword, but Amanda reveals that sometime ago, she hid it within him so evil could not get it. Margali withdraws the Soulsword from Kurt and Jardine asks if he can hold it. When she refuses, millions of flies pour from him and attack the group. Kurt warns everyone to cover their eyes and ears while the flies swarm around them. When its all over, Wolverine stabs Christine; he is now possessed by the entity known as Hive. He vows to kill them all to get the Soulsword. 
NIGHTCRAWLER v3 #11 
The same day as NC3 10. Nightcrawler teleports the Hive-possessed Wolverine away before he can injure anyone else while Magik tends to the wounded Christine. Kurt teleports Logan to the top of a rollercoaster and twists his neck, then teleports to check on the others. Magik has stabilized Christine. Nightmare finds where Wolverines displaced consciousness was sent and Margali tells Kurt to defeat Hive with the Soulsword. Nightcrawler returns to Hive, whose Wolverine body has healed. Hive leaves Logans body and Nightcrawler finds the demon among the insects. Kurt tries to get info but Hive is then killed by the one orchestrating this affair. Wolverine returns to normal and Kurt rejoins his friends. He learns Christine will be safe and the others believe it is all over, but Kurt knows better. Full moon over Florida. 

----------- 

It's funny, Nightcrawler seems to be just fine at the end of NC3 11, so why did Aguirre-Sacasa make such a big deal of pointing out that Kurt hasn't been in training since issue 11? Grrr.... 

In NC3 8, Storm is at the Institute interrogating Vermin. Also in NC3 8, Wolverine makes a comment about how not everyone can revisit their past, suggesting that Wolverine doesn't remember his own past.(which of course would make sense, given that was Wolverine's status quo when this was published) 

Both of these point to pre-HoM placement for NC3 7-11, but Kurt's injuries suggest post-HoM placement for NC3 7-11. So which references do we ignore/rationalize? 

I'm thinking that this arc will have to be pre-HoM, if only because of Storm being at Xavier's. I can see her popping in for Kurt's birthday in NC3 12, but it reads like she hasn't left yet in NC3 8. As for Beast's inferrance in NC3 12, during the check up they're talking about the injuries Kurt sustained from NC3 7-11,(burns from the Man-Thing & claw marks from Vermin, which didn't happen at the same time) almost as if they're recapping the previous story for us. Beast doesn't flat-out say that's the reason Kurt's out of action, it's just implied. I think we'll have to attribute Kurt's being out of action to injuries from some other adventure, leaving a big gap between NC3 11 & NC3 12.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 71

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #13-14
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm sorry this is late, the month of December has turned out to be pretty busy for me. Hopefully January should be a better month for me to do analysis. 

Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #13-14 
Written by Karl Kesel 
Drawn by Carmine Di Giandomenico 

This two-part story basically sets up the origin of the new character Vegas, a person with luck/probability powers, which he gains after being exposed to an explosion at his sisters laboratory. The explosion was caused by an old gang of super powered people that Vegas used to hang out with, called the Renegades. Vegas figures the Renegades are responsible for his sisters death, and sets out on a quest to get revenge against them. 


Kesel has said in interviews that what hes trying to establish with these characters is to show what super powered people are like outside of the New York City area, (specifically in the more Western parts of the Marvel Universes version of America). The law enforcement divisions out west supposedly refer to people with superpowers as Anomalitos, and people with superpowers that turn to a life of crime as being Anomalocos. 

Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #13 
Play to Win part 1 
Written by Karl Kesel 
Drawn by Carmine Di Giandomenico 

Appearances: 

The New Avengers: Captain America, Spider-Man, Luke Cage, Wolverine, Spider-Woman, Iron Man, Sentry 

New Characters: 

Vegas (they never once give his real name). 
Meg Lantry 
Jane, (Vegass sister) 
Sergeant Harlan Stone, (aka Tombstonewhich I guess would make him Tombstone II) 
Trisha aka Electrisha 

The Renegades: Suicide King, The Padre, Rose Red, Six-Gun Kid, Smith 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-6: Our story picks up in Eastern Oregon, wherein our hero Vegas is stopping in a diner/convenience store. He stops a person trying to rob the store, and then leaves the area before the cops arrive. He wonders how he managed to dodge the robbers bullet, and finds it strange that the bullet destroyed the winning lottery ticket that was just purchased by someone else. 

(this basically sets up how Vegas powers work: when something bad is about to happen to him, his luck powers kick in, and the bad luck gets shifted to someone else). 

Pgs. 7-22: Two Days Later: Vegas arrives in Austin, Texas, (having driven there over the last two days), to visit an old girlfriend named Meg Lantry. He tells Meg that the Renegades killed his sister, and that he wants revenge. Unfortunately, Sergeant Harlan Stone of the Texas Rangers, (aka Tombstone) just happens to be there at Megs house, (hes investigating the Renegades, and knows that Vegas used to hang out with them, so he came to question Meg)he takes Vegas away in his car to arrest him. 

On the way to the police station, Tombstone explains the difference between Anomalitos and Anomalocos, introducing Vegas to a girl named Electrisha whos out walking the street, (shes hinted at as having been a prostitute, which is how Tombstone knows her, since hes a law officer). 

Shortly after that, Vegas breaks out of the car and escapes, and goes to an old abandoned warehouse where the Renegades used to meet. Inside, he finds the only one of the Renegades on hand is a person named Padre, whos powers make him immune to fire, (hes an arsonist). Tombstone breaks into the place behind Vegas, (having tracked him down). Padre sets the place on fire, and the place starts going up in smoke around Vegas, preventing him from escaping 

References: 

Pg. 1: There is a T.V. on inside the diner on pg. 1. The news is on T.V., and there is an image showing all of the New Avengers mentioned above charging into battle, (against whom, it doesnt say). The TV news broadcaster narrates the following: The Avengers-whose members now include a mutant, an ex-convict and at least one wall-crawler of questionable character-have a history of polishing up diamond-in-the-rough defenders to stand alongside the brightest stars in the super-hero 

So this occurs after the New Avengers have gone public, (since theyre on the news) 

Also on pg. 1, one of the people in the store Vegas walks into says, Always wondered what he looked like under the costume in reference to Captain Americaof course, Captain Americas superhero identity is supposed to be known to the public by this time! But I tend to think that Steve Rogers has one of those faces that you would walk by, and just think that was an average American not that was Captain America! (thats how he seems to have been written in Captain America the last couple of years, or so it seems to me). 

Pg. 3p2: FB- Vegas walks into her sisters laboratory to visit with her. 

Pg. 3p4: FB-Vegas wakes up having survives the explosion at the laboratory in which his sister was supposedly killed. This probably occurred the day before pgs. 1-6. 

Pg. 7: Vegas narrates that this scene happens two days later after the scene on pgs. 1-6. 

Pg. 10: Tombstone is listening to the news on the radio in his car, when the news reporter narrates, -in close pursuit, until both Spiderman and the tentacled man, Dr. Octopus, escaped into the maze of tunnels below New Yorks Grand Central Station. 

Though this sounds similar to the ending of Spectacular Spiderman vol. 2 # 6-10, (the Paul Jenkins arc), Im betting this is a never-before-seen confrontation between Spidey and Doc Ock. Am I the only one that it getting sick of Spiderman vs. Doctor Octopus whenever a writer needs to insert a random superhero battle in the background into the plot? There are lots of other villains out there for Spiderman to fight 

Pg. 15-17: FB-This flashback happens as Vegas thinks back to a time when he was still hanging out with the Renegades, and Rose Red was his girlfriend. In this flashback, the Renegades, (Rose Red, Suicide King, Smith, Six Gun Kid, Padre, and Vegas) go out into the Texas desert to check out a chemical spill thats caught on fire. Padre swims through the burning lake of chemicals, while Vegas and Six Gun Kid show off for Rose Red. Smith and Suicide King (the other members of the Renegades) also appear in this flashback. 

Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #14 
Play to Win part 2 
Written by Karl Kesel 
Drawn by Carmine Di Giandomenico 

Appearances: 

Vegas 
Meg Lantry 
Sergeant Harlan Stone, (aka Tombstonewhich I guess would make him Tombstone II) 
Jane, (Vegas sister) 
Dr. Heisenberg 
Charlene 

The Renegades: Suicide King, The Padre, Rose Red, Six-Gun Kid, Smith 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-12: Picks up right where we left off last issue. Vegas has a vision that his ex-girlfriend Meg is in a car wreck, and wakes up to find hes still alive, the warehouse burning down around him. He escapes the warehouse, (leaving behind Tombstone, who apparently died in the fire). He heads to the local hospital, to find his suspicions confirmed: Meg was indeed in a car wreck, and is there in the hospital. Vegas quickly figures out that he received luck/probability super powers from that explosion at his sisters laboratory. Megs bad luck of being in a car wreck helped give him good luck to escape the fire. 

Vegas goes to a diner to sit down and think over his next move. He thinks how unlucky he is to not have any money to buy anything, but just then, the waitress, (named Charlene) takes pity on him and buys him a cup of coffee. He realizes he cant control these newfound powers at all. Just then, the Padre walks into the diner and knocks Vegas unconscious, (Vegas purposefully tries to avoid having to use his powers, so no one around him gets killed). 

Pgs. 13-17: The next morning: Vegas wakes up in the back of the Padres car, in handcuffs, and driving down the road as the Padre sets the car on fire. The Padre reveals to Vegas that his sister Jane is still alive, and that Suicide King is holding her hostage. His quest having changed from one of vengeance to rescuing his sister, Vegas activates his powers and escapes. He then causes the Padre to run into an oilrig along the side of the road. The oilrig and the Padres car explode. 

Pgs. 18-22: The next day: Vegas makes it back to Austin, to the hospital, wherein he pays one last visit to Meg, (who is recovering from the car wreck). Leaving her behind, he runs into Tombstone, (who isnt dead after allshowing hes an Anomalito himself). Tombstone says Vegas did good work in defeating the Padre, (who apparently is still alive, in the hospital and under arrest). Tombstone says that the other Renegades have left the state, setting them outside of his jurisdiction. He offers to set Vegas up as a bounty hunter, and Vegas accepts. A short time later, Vegas rides off into the sunset, on a quest to save his sister from the rest of the Renegades 

And thats how it ends. Obviously, this is just a prologue tale, and if theres enough interest in the character, Marvel will bring him back for further adventures. 

References: 

Pg. 8-10: FB- This flashback shows the events leading up to the explosion at his sister Janes laboratory. Vegas is visiting his sister, and she introduces him to Dr. Heisenberg, the head of the laboratory where she works. They explain they are building a probability generator, to try and control luck. Just then, the Renegades, (all members) burst into the laboratory. Suicide King heard about this luck generator machine from Vegas, (who heard about it from his sister) and wants a demonstration. Dr. Heisenberg says its still unstable, but the Renegades pull out their weapons, and things start to get nasty. 

Thats how the flashback ends. So the correct order for the laboratory sequence flashbacks is as follows: 

AAF2 13: 3p2 
AAF2 14: 8-10 
AAF2 13: 3p4 

Pg. 18: Vegas narrates, "Takes the rest of the day and most of the next getting back to Austin without attracting undue attention." 

He's speaking in reference to the end of the last scene, so pgs. 18-22 occurs the next day after pgs. 13-17. 

Thats it for now. My review for DD vs. Punisher probably wont be up till after the 1st of the year. Im also working on my review for Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #15.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 29 Dec 2005 01:17 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 28 Dec 2005 08:51 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Much obliged, Kevin. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Dec 2005 12:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm sorry ... do the New Avengers appear in BOTH issues? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Dec 2005 01:16 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Nope, that would be me forgetting to edit out a line from the appearances section for issue #14, (as you can see, I sometimes "copy and paste" for my reviews. It saves time). 

Sorry.  I've edited the New Avengers out now.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Dec 2005 11:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Pg. 10: Tombstone is listening to the news on the radio in his car, when the news reporter narrates, -in close pursuit, until both Spiderman and the tentacled man, Dr. Octopus, escaped into the maze of tunnels below New Yorks Grand Central Station. 

Though this sounds similar to the ending of Spectacular Spiderman vol. 2 # 6-10, (the Paul Jenkins arc), Im betting this is a never-before-seen confrontation between Spidey and Doc Ock. Am I the only one that it getting sick of Spiderman vs. Doctor Octopus whenever a writer needs to insert a random superhero battle in the background into the plot? There are lots of other villains out there for Spiderman to fight  
<<<

I think this would work quite well if the news report is describing a chase scene involving Spidey and Doc Ock that occurred just before the scene at the beginning of M/TU3 14, which depicts the end of a protracted battle between the two. So I've placed AAF2 13 (7-22) the day after the night of M/TU3 14.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 72

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 03:15 am    Post subject: Nightcrawler v3 5-6
By Col_Fury

Since Jeph said hes working on Gambit 1-9, I figured Id finish up these last two issues of Nightcrawler for him. Sorry Jeph, if youve already started to work on this 

Nightcrawler v3 #5 
Ghosts on the Tracks pt 1 
And Kurt Hopped the A Train 
W: Roberto Aguire-Sacasa 
D: Darick Robertson 
Published: March, 2005 

Appearances: 
Nightcrawler(Kurt Wagner), Wolverine(Logan), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Christine Palmer, Mayor of New York, Cyclops(Scott Summers)-BTS, Mephisto-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg18: New York, evening 
Kurt & Christine and Logan & Ororo are ending a double date, waiting for a subway train when an army of rats runs by, followed by an out of control train. They all teleport aboard to help. Kurt & Christine check on the conductor(who died of fright), Logan makes sure that the passengers are all right, and Ororo stops the train by short circuiting the third rail with lightning. Kurt notices something on the tracks and teleports out to check on it, and discovers that its a ghost. When it disappears, Logan and Ororo decide to go home and call Cyclops for a ride, while Kurt goes to Christines place for a shower.(hed been slimed by the ghost) 
At Christines apartment, they start to have a discussion about their relationship when Ororo calls from the Blackbird, telling him to go to the Mayors office to talk about the ghosts, which he does. 
After leaving the Mayors office, Kurt talks to the widow of the conductor. 
Pg19-pg22: New York, late night in the subway 
Kurt has been searching the subway for over two hours, and eventually finds more ghosts. 

References: 
A full moon is seen low in the sky through the Mayors offices window, and another is seen slightly higher in the sky when Kurt leaves the office, so its probably still before midnight, albeit pretty late at night at this point. He goes to the widows house after that, and two hours later hes still in the subway. Most likely, midnight occurs between pg18 & pg19. 

The Mayor mentions Magnetos destruction of New York as happening last year, so this occurs sometime in the next calendar year after that. 

Falling brown leaves in New York, and people are wearing coats and jackets. 

Storm calls Cyclops for a ride, but hes not seen or heard, giving him a BTS. 

NC3 12 revealed that Mephisto gave Storm the idea of having Kurt investigate the ghosts, so he should get a BTS also. 

Nightcrawler v3 #6 
Ghosts on the Tracks pt 2 
And Kurt Hopped the A Train 
W: Roberto Aguire-Sacasa 
D: Darick Robertson 
Published: April, 2005 

Appearances: 
Nightcrawler(Kurt Wagner), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Emma Frost, Beast(Hank McCoy), Magick(Amanda Sefton), Cyclops(Scott Summers), Wolverine(Logan), Christine Palmer, the Mayor of New York. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1: FB- 100 years ago, New York 
A generic shot of New York. 
Pg1pn2: FB- 96 years ago, New York 
Construction of the subway tunnels. 
Pg1pn3(of 3): FB- years later, New York, possibly 1920s or 1930s 
A generic shot of New York. 
Pg2pn1: FB- a few months ago, New York, the subway 
A generic shot of the subway, the ghosts are starting to appear more frequently. 
Pg2pn2: Now, more or less 
The city is getting ready for the Centennial celebration of the subway. 
Pg2pn3: daytime, Xavier Institute 
Storm talks with Emma Frost about the subway ghosts. 
Pg2pn4(of 4)-pg9pn3: FB- picks up where least issue left off 
Nightcrawler tries to communicate with the ghosts, who show him evidence(bones) of an accident from 100 years ago. 
Pg9pn4(of 4)-pg11pn3: Dawn, Xavier Institute 
Having finished telling Hank the FlashBack, Kurt asks him to analyze the bones he found. 
Pg11pn4(of 4)-pg14: Limbo 
Kurt asks Amanda if she can find out anything about the ghosts. 
Pg15-pg17: New York, a public library 
Kurt researches the subways history for three hours, then goes to the subway to give the ghosts an update, then he goes to the Mayors office to tell him what he discovered: There was an accident during the subways construction that was covered up, and thats why the ghosts are upset. 
Pg18-pg19pn6: A few days later, the Centennial celebration 
Nightcrawler, Storm, Wolverine, & Cyclops are at the celebration, and the ghosts are there too. The Mayor publicly announces that there was an accident in the subway 100 years ago. 
Pg19pn7(of 7): A diner in New York 
Kurt tells Christine that the accident was 101 years ago today, October 24, 1903, and that the subway officially opened 100 years ago today, October 24, 1904. 
Pg20: FB-finishing the celebration scene 
The Mayor says that reparations will be made to the families of the workers killed in the accident, which makes the ghosts happy, so they disappear. 
Pg21pn1-pn2: back at the diner 
Kurt tells Christine what Amanda said as he was getting ready to leave Limbo. 
Pg21pn3: FB- Limbo 
Amanda and Kurt finish their conversation from pg14. 
Pg21pn4(of 5)-pg22: back at the diner 
Kurt and Christine decide to just be friends. 

References: 
The subway celebration is on October 24 

Heres a breakdown of the story order: 
NC3 6-FB pg1pn1: sometime in 1900 
NC3 6-FB pg1pn2: sometime in 1904 
NC3 6-FB pg1pn3: 1920s or 1930s 
NC3 6-FB pg2pn1: a few months ago 
NC3 5 pg1-pg18: Oct 20 
NC3 5 pg19-pg22: Oct 21, after midnight 
NC3 6-FB pg2pn4-pg9pn3: Oct 21, after midnight 
NC3 6 pg9pn4-pg11pn3: Oct 21, dawn 
NC3 6 pg2pn2: Oct 21, daytime 
NC3 6 pg2pn3: Oct 21, daytime 
NC3 6 pg11pn4-pg14: Limbo 
NC3 6-FB pg21pn3: Limbo 
NC3 6 pg15-pg17: Oct 21, afternoon into night 
NC3 6 pg18-pg19pn6: Oct 24 
NC3 6-FB pg20: Oct 24 
NC3 6 pg19pn7: Oct 24, evening 
NC3 6 pg21pn1-pn2: Oct 24, evening 
NC3 6 pg21pn4-pg22: Oct 24, evening 

I dont know if that October 24th reference can work, but there it is
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 29 Dec 2005 11:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I dont know if that October 24th reference can work, 
<<<

Yes, it could. That would place NC3 5-6 a month after NC3 4 and a large gap of more than eight months would separate NC3 6 and 7. 

Thanks for the analysis, Col_Fury.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Dec 2005 11:42 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Yes, it could. That would place NC3 5-6 a month after NC3 4 and a large gap of more than eight months would separate NC3 6 and 7. 
<<<

It's like a large, beautiful puzzle...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2005 02:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Regarding that "October 24" reference in NC3 6...if true, then that places NC3 5 later the same year as X 150, not the year after. So the mayor's reference to Magneto's destruction of Manhattan having occurred "last year" would need to be reinterpreted. Perhaps the reference is to be implied as "last fiscal year," which in NYC runs from July 1 through June 30. One of the mayors big concerns about Magnetos destruction would have been the impact on the citys annual budget and so he might frame the event temporally in that context. I've placed X 150 in late June, at the tail end of the last fiscal year, so that works (barely) for me...
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 73

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 05:18 pm    Post subject: Ororo: Before the Storm #1-4
By Paul O'Brien
Director

This is a four-part miniseries which simply tells an adventure from Ororo's time as one of Achmed el Gibar's gang on the streets of Cairo. It's okay, as these things go. 

Before turning to the story itself, a few words about the other flashbacks from this period. These are the relevant entries from Ororo's current listing, with a brief explanation of each. I'm not wholly convinced about the current placement for some of these, as discussed below. 

- UO 9 [p9pn1-3] - Ororo is begging on the streets of Cairo, a few weeks after the death of her parents. She's aged 6 at this point (per UO 9 and UX 102). Some of Achmed's kids approach her. 

- UX 102-FB [p9pn2-3] Ororo talks to them, and then they take her to meet Achmed. 

- XU 7-FB. Achmed accepts Ororo as one of his thieves. He teaches her how to pick pockets, and she steals her first wallet. 

- UO 9 [p7]. Some years later. Ororo has now learned to pick locks and has become Achmed's favourite thief. She has nightmares about the death of her parents. 

- UX 113-FB [p6pn5]. Achmed teaches Ororo how to open a safe with her feet. 

- STORM 2-FB. Generic panel of Storm picking a pocket. 

- X 60-FB. Ororo steals the Heart of Candra jewel from a mansion in Kasime, near Cairo. She shows it to Achmed, who tells her that he will keep it for her until she is older. 

- UX 117-FB. Ororo steals Xavier's wallet. He telepathically freezes her, and retrieves it. Before he can do anything else, he gets zapped by the Shadow King, and Ororo escapes. 

- UX 113-FB [p6pn7]. Achmed ties Ororo up in a room and leaves her to escape unaided. The implication is that this is some sort of culmination to her training. 

- UO 9. Now aged 11 ("in your twelfth year"), Ororo has a dream about her parents and tells Achmed that she is leaving Cairo. 

So Ororo spends a total of five years with Achmed's group. I'm confused by the existing order of these flashbacks, which isn't publication order, and doesn't really seem to reflect her apparent age either. Based simply on putting her youngest and least experienced appearances first, and using publication order as a tie-breaker, I'd suggest this sequence:- 

UO 9 [p6pn1-3] 
UX 102-FB [p9pn2-3] 
UO 9 [p6pn4-6] 
XU 7-FB (her very early days) 
UX 117-FB (basic pickpocketing, but she's good at it) 
UO 9 [p7] (She's been at it for years and she's the top thief by now) 
X 60-FB (experienced, but "years" before she leaves Cairo) 
UX 113-FB [p6pn5] 
UX 113-FB [p6pn7] (keeping them together - plus, she looks older by now, and she's doing extremely advanced training by this point) 
STORM 2-FB (basic pickpocketing, but she looks much older than in most Cairo flashbacks) 
UO 9 [p10] 

Right... turning to the miniseries. Ororo's said to be Achmed's favourite thief by this point, so it's evidently after UO 9 [p7]. She looks about as old as she did in X 60-FB. Simply going by publication order, I'd place this miniseries after X 60-FB and before UX 113-FB. 

ORORO #1 
- Prologue, pages 1-3: Mexico. An unnamed Indiana Jones-type figure escapes from the Tomb of Huitzilopochtli with an artifact, La Corona de Huitzilopochtli, that he's just stolen. He hands it to his employer, Barrett (the villain of the series), who then kills him. 

- Pages 4-17: Cairo, night. Crescent moon. Accompanied by fellow thieves Nari and Hakiim, Ororo breaks into a warehouse in the market district, intending to get food for everyone. They are discovered and flee. The police give chase, but el-Gibar turns up and rescues them. (The police are obviously intimidated by him for some reason.) Afterwards, el-Gibar reprimands Nari for not staying to help the others when she had a chance. Ororo talks with Hakiim on the roof on their hideout. 

- Pages 18-end. "The next morning." Ororo picks pockets inthe market. The police spot her, but she escapes. She stumbles upon el-Gibar in a cafe with Barrett. Barrett wants to hire el-Gibar's thieves for a job. At first el-Gibar refuses, saying that the job is too dangerous. But when Barrett shows him the money on offer, el-Gibar changes his mind. 

ORORO #2 
- Pages 1-5. Cairo, night. Full moon, so a couple of weeks after the previous issue. Ororo, Nari, Hakiim and the other thieves train under the guidance of el-Gibar. 

- Pages 6-22. The next day. The pyramids. Barrett, an archaeologist, is already working on a dig. El-Gibar arrives with Ororo, Nari and Hakiim. Barrett is not best pleased to learn that he's hired kids, but ploughs on anyway. Claiming to be a legitimate academic, he sends them into the pyramid to recover the Opal of Ozymandias. The kids willingly enter the pyramid, where Ororo quickly begins to suffer from claustrophobia. They dodge various boobytraps for half an issue, and finally reach a chamber where Ozymandias (yes, THAT Ozymandias) is sitting inert. Nari takes the gem from his forehead, and he wakes up. Ozymandias attacks the kids with his magic statues. 

ORORO #3. 
- Direct continuation from the previous issue. El-Gibar is worried that his kids have been gone too long. He goes to talk to Barrett, only to overhear Barrett's plan to use the Opal to raise Apocalypse and conquer the world. El-Gibar makes a break for it, but gets captured. Meanwhile, in the pyramid, the kids fight off the statues. Eventually, Ozymandias recognises Ororo from his precognitive visions. He realises that she will grow up to be Storm and be one of the Twelve, and lets the kids go in order to avoid derailing history. He gives Ororo the Opal, but warns that its powers come at a "terrible price". On their way out of the pyramid, the kids blunder into a booby trap set by Barrett. Nari escapes and reaches the surface, where Barrett takes the Opal from her and is magically empowered by it. While all this is happening, Barrett's men round up the rest of el-Gibar's thieves and bring them to the pyramid. 

ORORO #4. 
- Pages 1-21. Direct continuation from the previous issue. (Page 1 is yet another flashback to the plane crash from Ororo's origin, but doesn't add anything new.) Ororo escapes by using her powers for the first time, although she doesn't realise what she's done. She and Hakiim reach the surface where they find the other thieves. Barrett tries to use the Opal and the Corona from issue #1 in a ceremony to raise Apocalypse. (He's got a great big sarcophagus, but it's never made clear whether Apocalypse is actually in it.) The kids disrupt the ceremony and rescue el-Gibar. Gambling that Ozymandias was telling the truth about the "terrible price", Ororo gives Barrett the Opal, which he believes will make him immortal. In typical magical-artifact "should have read the small print" fashion, it turns him into a statue instead. El-Gibar and his thieves return home. 

- Pages 22-23. "The next day." In Cairo, Ororo, Hakiim and Nari talk about the story in usual epilogue fashion. In the tomb, Ozymandias reclaims his Opal from Barrett and then contemplates a carving of the adult Storm. 

Characters: 
Nice and straightforward. Ororo, Achmed el-Gibar, Nari, Hakiim and Barrett all appear in every issue. (The latter three don't get full names.) Ozymandias is in issues #2-4. There are no other characters of any significance - everyone else is a generic cop, a generic thief, or a generic henchman.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Dec 2005 08:40 pm    
By Enda80

Huitzilopochtli also served Apocalypse as an alias.

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Posted: 29 Dec 2005 09:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Barrett tries to use the Opal and the Corona from issue #1 in a ceremony to raise Apocalypse. (He's got a great big sarcophagus, but it's never made clear whether Apocalypse is actually in it.) 
<<<

It's probably a pretty good assumption, though, right? I mean, Barrett's trying to resurrect the guy -- there's a sarcophagus that looks just like him -- it's very likely that he's in there. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 04:14 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

All things being equal, I'd tend to agree. On the other hand, I'm not honestly sure where Apocalypse is meant to be at that point in continuity, and if the answer is "somewhere else", there's nothing in the story that would compel us to yank him back to Egypt for the purpose.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 11:33 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Paul O., nice job putting flashbacks from several different series in chronological order. Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 04:37 pm    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
All things being equal, I'd tend to agree. On the other hand, I'm not honestly sure where Apocalypse is meant to be at that point in continuity, and if the answer is "somewhere else", there's nothing in the story that would compel us to yank him back to Egypt for the purpose. 
<<<

It's the same sort of timeframe as Legion Quest, correct? Where was Apocalypse when the Legion/X-Men fight woke him up to set up the AoA?

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Thread 74

Posted: 31 Dec 2005 02:58 am    Post subject: Shang Chi: Master of Kung Fu 3-6!
By Col_Fury

Shang Chi: Master of Kung Fu #3 
the Hellfire Apocalypse pt 3 
Ghost in Paradise 
W: Doug Moench 
D: Paul Gulacy 
Published: January, 2003 

Appearances: 
Shang Chi, Saint Germain/the Ghost/Shang Chis Dad(hereafter known as Dad), Leiko Wu, Black Jack Tarr, Clive Reston, pilot of the Citation X, a little girl, the Omegans(Spetz, Stone, Calder, Buckman, Parkins, Turnbull, & Slade) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4pn2: Picking up from last issue, France, night 
Leiko Wu & Dad confront each other, revealing that Dad is Saint Germain and responsible for whatever happened in the last two issues.(He was the guy in the gold mask) Suddenly, Shang Chi arrives!(he survived Moving Shadows attack) 
Pg4pn3: FB 
A young Shang Chi(four or five years old?) bowing before a seated Dad. 
Pg4pn4: FB 
A teenage(& shaved bald) Shang Chi trains while Dad watches. 
Pg4pn5(of 5)-pg17pn5: France, night 
Dad orders an attack and escapes. Shang Chi and Leiko Wu fight some goons, zombies, and monsters while talking about old times. Dad gets away. 
Pg17pn6-pn9(of 9): Hong Kong, daytime 
Black Jack and Clive watch a ship thats coming in to dock. It has a shipment thats going to Dads secret island base. 
Pg18: France, night 
Shang Chi and Leiko drive off in a jeep. 
Pg19: Hong Kong 
The Omegans watch the same ship that Black Jack and Clive are, in addition to watching them. 
Pg20pn1-pn4: Hong Kong 
Black Jack and Clive continue to watch the ship. 
Pg20pn5(of 5): Shang Chis place 
A little girl tries to figure out how to get her doll out of some quicksand. 
Pg21-pg22: Leaving France, early morning 
Shang Chi and Leiko are aboard the Citation X on their way to Hong Kong. 

References: 
A full moon is seen over France. 

Pg1-pg20 are all in one night, the same night as the end of last issue. Pg21-pg22 is the next morning. 

Shang Chi and Leiko Wu will arrive in Hong Kong in 5 hours, 9 minutes. 

Shang Chi: Master of Kung Fu #4 
the Hellfire Apocalypse pt 4 
Hellfire 
W: Doug Moench 
D: Paul Gulacy 
Published: February, 2003 

Appearances: 
Shang Chi, Saint Germain/the Ghost/Shang Chis Dad(hereafter known as Dad), Leiko Wu, Black Jack Tarr, Clive Reston, pilot of the Citation X, Moving Shadow, the Omegans(Spetz, Stone, Calder, Buckman, Parkins, Turnbull, & Slade) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: Dads island headquarters 
Dad arrives at his island headquarters. 
Pg3-pg4: Hong Kong 
Shang Chi and Leiko arrive in Hong Kong. 
Pg5-pg8: A small village outside of Hong Kong 
Dad tests his Hellfire weapon on a small village, killing everyone. He then ponders on where to use it next. 
Pg9-pg19: Hong Kong 
Still spying on the ship, Black Jack and Clive are attacked by Dads goons! The Omegans jump in to help out, even though Spetz doesnt want to. They are quickly over powered, but Shang Chi and Leiko arrive and save the day. 
Pg20-pg21: outside Hong Kong 
That night, Shang Chi, Leiko Wu, Black Jack, and Clive are on their way to Dads island base, stowing away on the shipment boat they were spying on earlier. They pass by the ruins of the village used in the test. The Omegans are following in their own boats. 
Pg22: Dads island headquarters 
Dad and Moving Shadow talk about killing Shang Chi and ruling the world. 

References: 
This issue takes place all in one day, the same day as pg21-pg22 of last issue. 

Shang Chi: Master of Kung Fu #5 
the Hellfire Apocalypse pt 5 
Shadow Moves 
W: Doug Moench 
D: Paul Gulacy 
Published: March, 2003 

Appearances: 
Shang Chi, Saint Germain/the Ghost/Shang Chis Dad(hereafter known as Dad), Leiko Wu, Black Jack Tarr, Clive Reston, Moving Shadow, a little girl, the Omegans(Spetz, Stone, Calder, Buckman, Parkins, Turnbull, & Slade) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Dads island headquarters 
The Omegans arrive on the island at the same time as our heroes, but on separate locations. The Omegans see the Hellfire weapon being charged up. 
Pg4-pg5: Dads island headquarters 
Our heroes see an explosion from the direction of where the Omegans are, and then continue to make their way to the base. 
Pg6-pg7: Inside Dads base 
Moving Shadow and Dad talk while Moving Shadow practices his sword moves, and while Dad plays Pac Man. Seriously. 
Pg8pn1-pn2: Dads island headquarters 
Our heroes drive to the base. 
Pg8pn3: FB 
A young Shang Chi(four or five years old?) standing before a standing Dad. 
Pg8pn4: Shang Chis place 
A little girl is still trying to figure out a way to get her doll out of some quicksand. 
Pg8pn5-pn6(of 6): Dads island headquarters 
Theyre still driving 
Pg9-pg18: Dads island headquarters 
The Omegans attack the entrance our heroes were trying to enter, and theres a great big fight with some of Dads goons. Shang Chi goes off on his own and runs into Dad, who reveals that Moving Shadow and Shang Chi are brothers, by different mothers. 
Pg19-pg20: Inside Dads base 
On their way to the command center, Buckman, Parkins, Turnbull, and Slade are killed without the rest of the Omegans noticing. Buckmans bomb is gone, so there goes the plan of blowing up the base 
Pg21-pg22: Inside Dads base 
Shang Chi and Dad talk some more, but then Moving Shadow attacks! 

References: 
A full moon is seen over Dads island base, which is outside of Hong Kong. 

All in one night, same night as last issue. 

Shang Chi: Master of Kung Fu #6 
the Hellfire Apocalypse pt 6 
the Devils Son 
W: Doug Moench 
D: Paul Gulacy 
Published: April, 2003 

Appearances: 
Shang Chi, Saint Germain/the Ghost/Shang Chis Dad(hereafter known as Dad), Leiko Wu, Black Jack Tarr, Clive Reston, Moving Shadow, a little girl, the Omegans(Spetz, Stone, & Calder) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Inside Dads base 
Shang Chi and Moving Shadow fight while Dad watches. 
Pg6-pg8: Outside the command center, inside Dads base 
Leiko Wu, Black Jack, and Clive approach the command center when they run into the Omegans. Spetz is too loud and draws the guards attention. They attack and kill the rest of the Omegans except Stone, but Spetz is injured badly. 
Pg9-pg11: Inside Dads base. 
Shang Chi and Moving Shadow are still fighting while Dad watches. 
Pg12-pg13: Outside the command center, inside Dads base 
Spetz dies and Stone joins our heroes. 
Pg14-pg15: Inside Dads base. 
Dad kills Moving Shadow, Shang Chi is disgusted. 
Pg16-pg17: Inside the command center, inside Dads base 
Stone sets off a chain reaction in the command center, creating a series of explosions. 
Pg18-pg20: Inside Dads base. 
Dad dies in the explosions, Black jack, Clive and Leiko Wu rescue Shang Chi. 
Pg21-pg23: Shang Chis place 
Stone, Leiko Wu, Clive and Black Jack drop Shang Chi off at his place and say their goodbyes. Shang Chi then finishes the little girls lesson he started before he left. 

THE END 

References: 
Pg1-pg20 are the same night as last issue, and full moon is seen over Dads island base. Pg21-pg32 are the next day. 

Overall, not including the first two issues, heres the reading order: 

Shang Chi 3-FB pg4pn3 
Shang Chi 5-FB pg8pn3 
Shang Chi 3-FB pg4pn4 
Shang Chi 3 pg1-pg20: one day 
Shang Chi 3 pg21-pg22: day two 
Shang Chi 4: day two 
Shang Chi 5: day two 
Shang Chi 6 pg1-pg20: day two 
Shang Chi 6 pg21-pg23: day three 

Santa couldn't find the first two parts of this mini, so Im not exactly sure what happens in those issues. 

I also dont have the slightest clue as to how these FlashBacks fit into Shang Chis chronology, seeing as how Ive read next to nothing of Shang Chi. Sorry.  

Is the little girl Shang Chis daughter? Or just some girl? Whats her name, anyway? Has the pilot of the 'Citation X' been seen before? Also, whats Shang Chis dads name? Just curious 

I hope this was worth waiting almost three years for
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 04:02 am    
By Enda80

One oddity about Saint German; Fu Manchu claims to have always been the Comte De Saint-Germain. Well, that figure has gotten used before: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comte_de_Saint-Germain 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/stgermai.htm 
Aside from that, the Comte De Saint-Germain also appeared in a Night Raven story alongside Yi Yang, Duvalier, and Dr. John Dee in a group of immortals or long-lived characters (this was before the as yet unpublished but obliquely hinted at in the recent Handbook entries for Doctor Doom and the Yellow Claw story about the Immortal Nine was written). 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nhtraven.htm 




(Mighty World of Marvel II#17/3) - On the roof of a skyscraper, Night Raven witnessed the assassination of a mysterious white-robed man. He pursued the gunman, but lost the trail, and decided to investigate the building further to see if he could find any clues to the man's identity or why he might have been killed. He was able to determine that the penthouse and top floor were inhabited by a Dr. Francois Duvalier, but was attracting too much attention in the daylight. While he was waiting in the parking structure for nightfall, he saw the Comte De Saint Germain and Dr. John Dee arrive with a couple of bodyguards. He was confused by the way they knew Duvalier had been killed, yet spoke of him as though he were still alive. When he followed them up to the penthouse, he killed the two bodyguards, but was put into some kind of mystical trance by the living, breathing Duvalier. 

(Savage Sword of Conan the Barbarian UK#85/3) - Duvalier used his magic to pry Night Raven's identity and history from his mind. Once the three men, who were all members of the loosely-knit community of immortals, realized he was the monster created by Yi Yang, they decided that she must decide his fate. And, unbeknownst to Night Raven, she had lived through the nuclear blast in Wisconsin, and came to New York at Saint Germain's call. Yi Yang spoke to Night Raven while he was still immobilized by Duvalier's ritual, telling him that it was too soon for him to know of the other immortals, and that he would destroy them all. Instead, she sent him back out into the world: "You're my guilt and you must walk the world until this pain and fear are worn from us..." When Night Raven awoke, he found himself on the top of the skyscraper, and wondered if he had dreamed everything that had happened since he first stood on the roof of the building.

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 10:30 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Fu Manchu made his return in this past week's Black Panther v4 #11. He says that every few hundred years he likes a makeover, and has now changed his name to "Han". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 10:41 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Santa couldn't find the first two parts of this mini, so Im not exactly sure what happens in those issues.  
<<<

Not to worry, Col. I've got those covered. Thanks for the analysis. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 75

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 03:47 pm    Post subject: List of Malibu & Marvel/Malibu Ultraverse Comics
By Dhall

Hi, I just spent a little time compiling a list of Ultraverse books, most of which are presumably canon. My purpose in this is twofold. 1) To ask everyone if they know of any books not on this list 2) To serve as a reference when we decide, at some future time, to fully close the Ultraverse gap. 

Dave 

List of Malibu & Marvel/Malibu Ultraverse Comics 

Angels of Destruction 1 
Black September # Infinity 
Break-Thru 1,2 
Codename Firearm 0-5 
Collectors Guide to the Ultraverse 
Conan (1995) 4 (Rune Crossover) 
Conan the Savage #4 (Rune Crossover) 
Conan Vs. Rune 1 
Curse of Rune 1-4 
Eliminator 0-3 
Elven 0-4 
Exiles 1-4 
The All-New Exiles # Infinity (EXI) 
The All-New Exiles 1-11 (EX) 
The All-New Exiles Vs. X-Men 0 (EXVX) 
Firearm 0-18 
Flood Relief 
Foxfire 1-4 (FOXFIRE) 
Freex 1-18, Giant Size 1 
Godwheel 0-3,Ashcan 
Hardcase 0-26 
Lord Pumpkin 0 (Separate book for #0 only, 1-4 are flip book with Necro Mantra) 
Mantra 1-24, Giant Size 1 
Mantra v2 # Infinity, 1-7 (MANTRA2) 
Mantra: Spear of Destiny 1-2 
Mutants Vs. Ultras 1 (reprints Prime Vs. Hulk, Night Man/Wolverine, Exiles Vs. X-Men) 
Necro Mantra 1-4 (flip book with Lord Pumpkin 1-4) 
Night Man 1-23, Ann. 1 
Night Man v2 # Infinity, 1-4 (NIGHTMAN2) 
The Night Man/Gambit 1-3 (NMG) 
Night Man/Wolverine 0 (NMVW) 
Phoenix Resurrection 0 (contains 7 prelude stories, 6 of which were originally printed as backups in other comics) (PR) 
Phoenix Resurrection Genesis (PR:G) 
Phoenix Resurrection Revelations (PR:R) 
Phoenix Resurrection Aftermath 
Power of Prime 1-4 
Prime , 1-26, Ann.1, Ashcan 
Prime v2 # Infinity, 1-15 (PRIME2) 
Prime/Captain America 1 
Prime Vs. Incredible Hulk 0 
Prototype 0-18, Giant Size Prototype 1 
Rafferty Ashcan 
Ripfire 0 
Rune 0-9, Giant Size Rune, Ashcan 
Rune v2 # Infinity, 1-7 (RUNE2) 
Rune: Hearts of Darkness 1-3 
Rune/Silver Surfer 1 
Silver Surfer/Rune 1 (SS/RUNE) 
Rune Vs. Venom 1 (RVV) 
Siren # Infinity, 1-3 (SIREN) 
Siren Special 1 
Sludge 1-12 
Sludge: Red X-Mas 1 
Solitaire 1-12 
Solution 0-17 
Strangers 1-24, Ann. 1 
Ultraforce #0A, 0B 
Ultraforce 1-10 (ULTRAF) 
Ultraforce v2 # Infinity, 1-15 (ULTRAF2) 
Ultraforce/Avengers Prelude (U/AP) 
Ultraforce/Avengers 1 (U/A) 
Avengers/Ultraforce 1 (A/U) 
Ultraforce/Spider-Man 1A, 1B 
Ultraverse Double Feature 1 
Ultraverse Future Shock 1 
Ultraverse Origins 1 
Ultraverse Premier #0 (Was a separate comic for issue #0 only, #1-11 printed as flip books with other Ultraverse comics) 
Ultraverse Preview Fall 1995 
Ultraverse Unlimited 1-2 (ULTRAU) ??? 
Ultraverse Year One 1 
Ultraverse Year Two 
Ultra Monthly 1-6 (News magazine set in the Ultraverse) 
Warstrike 1-7, Giant Size Warstrike 1 
Witch Hunter 1 
Wrath 1-9, Giant Size 1 
Year Zero: The Death of the Squad 1-4

Last edited by Dhall on 04 Dec 2005 08:09 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 03 Dec 2005 07:17 pm    
By shandrakor

I assume that includes all the Malibu books published before they were bought out. Does it also include the ones after Marvel bought them?

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2005 07:48 pm    
By Dhall

That includes all of the books that I know about, from web searches, both before and after Marvel bought them out. 

I've edited my post to include all of the MCP codes that I could find in the Key. As you can see, there are some conventions already established, such as PRIME2, NIGHTMAN2, etc. for referring to the second volume of a series, presumably we'd use PRIME, to denote vol.1. This is already done for titles, such as FOXFIRE,and SIREN which only have one volume. 

Also the one # Infinity issue we have, Exiles Infinty, is given the code EXI, presumably other Infinity issues would be given an I, after the regular code for thier book. 

For some reason, All-New Exiles, has the code EX, which differs from the convention established for the other Ultraverse titles (probably because it was one of the first to get a code.) This could be a problem, when we get around to putting Exiles Vol. 1 in the MCP. (We could of course call vol.1 EXILES) 

I have noticed that books listed in the MCP, tend to only have the Marvel characters, and not the Malibu ones listed. The Malibu characters should be listed, in my opinion, preferably with an (Ultraverse) notation on thier listings. 

Dave

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 01:03 am  
By JLH

The Rune crossover extended to the "Conan" series from 1995, issue 4.

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Posted: 04 Dec 2005 08:09 am    
By Dhall

Added, thanks!

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Thread 76

Posted: 08 Dec 2005 06:03 pm    Post subject: For the New Universe completist...
By mister benny

Hi. First post from a longtime lurker. 

With news of the impending New Universe revival, there's something which is bugging me, and I'm hoping someone here might be able to answer my question: 

In-between the old New Universe books (1986 to 1990) and the announced 2006 revival, what other New U appearances have there been? 

I'm aware of the one in Quasar #31, and I've seen what's currently going on in Exiles, but have there been any other New Universe appearances I don't know about???

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Posted: 08 Dec 2005 06:22 pm    
By Somebody

The Starblast mini (which was really the even [or odd, I forget]) parts of the crossover, with the other parts in Quasar. 

Avoid like you would avoid the opportunity to go swimming in hot lava wearing only a "Kiss me Quick" hat.

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Posted: 09 Dec 2005 10:39 am    
By lkseitz

Funny you should ask this. I've recently started a New Universe web site: Nuke Me With the New! I've got a Checklist of all the New Universe appearances I'm aware of. I'll summarize them here, so go look at the site if you want more info. 

(Aside: Paul will appreciate that I'm working on a calendar/timeline for the New Universe. I've only done a few issues and already I have contradictory dates. Argh!) 

After QUASAR #31, the mini-antibody ended up in Quagmire (QUASAR #36, 37, 43-46). Meanwhile, Quasar's girlfriend accidentally got the Star Brand from him and didn't know it at first. She had her own, mostly separate adventures all through QUASAR #32-53. 

This led directly into the Starblast crossover. I haven't inventoried all the issues to see which one's have appearances by New Universe characters and which ones don't, but the issues are: 

Fantastic Four #385-386 

Namor the Sub-Mariner #46-48 

Quasar #54-58, 60 

Secret Defenders #11 

Starblast #1-4
QUASAR #60 is more of an epilog, with only a brief appearance by the New Universe Earth, but none of the characters. (QUASAR #59 was a fill-in.) 

The only other official appearance by a New U character I know of is John "Justice" Tensen as the Net Prophet in SPIDER-MAN 2099. I don't own these, so can't say much about them. He had amnesia at first, but found out who he was just before the series was canceled. I believe the relevent issues are: 

Spider-Man 2099 #12-14, 25, 41, 42, 44 

Spider-Man 2099 Annual #1

And, after a gap of a decade, that brings us to the World Tour in EXILES. 

P.S. Woohoo, post #100! Now I'm Big Bad.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 09 Dec 2005 11:42 am    
By mister benny

This is great! Thanks very much. 

One question: Did something relating to the New U happen in the pages of Thunderbolts? I'm sure I've read something about it on a messageboard somewhere...

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Posted: 09 Dec 2005 02:02 pm    
By Somebody

Probably thinking about the time they spent on the Heroes Reborn Earth

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Thread 77

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 01:16 pm    Post subject: Blade
By Dhall

Does anyone have a list of which Blade comics, are and are not canon? I know that there are several series, oneshots, movie adaptions, etc. One comic is listed in the MCP as "Blade" which I assume is one of the oneshots. No other Blade comics are listed (to my knowledge) 

I know of: 
(1994) Blade the Vampire Hunter 10 issues 
(1998) Crescent City Blues Oneshot 
(1998) 3 issue series 
(1999) Wizard Blade 1/2 
(1999) Vampire Hunter 6 issue series 
(2002) Max Series 6 issues 

as well as: 
(1998) Movie edition 
Blade2: Movie Adaption 
Blade NIghtstalking (DVD insert) 
Blade Sins of the Father (oneshot) comes in regular and theatre edition 


Can anyone shed some light? 

Thanks, 
David

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 08:07 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Dhall wrote: 
Does anyone have a list of which Blade comics, are and are not canon? 

I know of: 
(1994) Blade the Vampire Hunter 10 issues 
(1998) Crescent City Blues Oneshot 
(1998) 3 issue series 
(1999) Wizard Blade 1/2 
(1999) Vampire Hunter 6 issue series 
(2002) Max Series 6 issues 


I believe the only one of these that is noncanon is the Max series. It's been awhile, but as I remember the series, Blade has always been that half-human/half-vampire that he is in the movies.

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Posted: 10 Dec 2005 01:52 am    
By JLH

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I know of: 
(1994) Blade the Vampire Hunter 10 issues 
<<<

Canon. Continued directly from the "Nightstalkers" series, crosses over with other characters. 


Quote: 
>>>
(1998) Crescent City Blues Oneshot 
<<<

Canon. Ties back into the old "Nightstalker" issues. 


Quote: 
>>>
(1998) 3 issue series 
<<<

This is tricky. It's got nothing in it to contradict continuity, Morbius is even involved. Yet, it got canceled mid-storyline, so I don't know what 


Quote: 
>>>
(1999) Wizard Blade 1/2 
(1999) Vampire Hunter 6 issue series 
Blade Sins of the Father (oneshot) comes in regular and theatre edition 
<<<

These are all connected, and they're not considered canon, though I can't remember the details as to why. In the MCP FAQ, these are the ones Russ refers to in the "whatever volume the current book is" in the non-canon list. 


Quote: 
>>>
(2002) Max Series 6 issues 
<<<

I don't recall this messing with continuity too badly, but I've yet to fully read it (Blade has the tribal tattoos from the movie in it, while in other, in-continuity titles of late, he doesn't, IIRC). But the MAX line is usually a flag to be wary of. 


Quote: 
>>>
as well as: 
(1998) Movie edition 
Blade2: Movie Adaption 
Blade NIghtstalking (DVD insert) 
<<<

I can't recall any movie adaptation of any kind that was ever canon for a Marvel book. These can't be any exceptions.

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Posted: 11 Dec 2005 06:23 pm   
By Andy Holcombe

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Dhall wrote: 
>>>
(1999) Wizard Blade 1/2 
(1999) Vampire Hunter 6 issue series 
Blade Sins of the Father (oneshot) comes in regular and theatre edition 
<<<

These are all connected, and they're not considered canon, though I can't remember the details as to why. In the MCP FAQ, these are the ones Russ refers to in the "whatever volume the current book is" in the non-canon list. 
<<<
 


The Wizard issue and Vampire Hunter are connected. Sins of the Father is a movie-tie in. Also the volume referred to in the FAQ should be the MAX book as it is most recent.

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Posted: 11 Dec 2005 07:40 pm    
By Dhall

Which issue is the Blade listed in the Key as "BLADE?"

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Posted: 11 Dec 2005 11:33 pm    
By JLH

Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
The Wizard issue and Vampire Hunter are connected. Sins of the Father is a movie-tie in.  
<<<

They all came out at the same period. They all have the same creative teams. "Sins of the Father" doesn't take place in Movie continuity, at least that's not the intention of it. It was never advertised as a movie tie-in like the X-Men Prequels and such were. 


Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
Also the volume referred to in the FAQ should be the MAX book as it is most recent. 
<<<

No, that denotation has been on the MCP since LONG before the MAX book was even announced.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 11:35 pm    
By JLH

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Which issue is the Blade listed in the Key as "BLADE?" 
<<<

That would be "Crescent City Rolls"... err "Blues".

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 07:09 pm    
By Antonio Gavio

"Sins of the Father" came out on October 1998, actually around the same time as the three issue series of the same year that got canceled and was supposed to run through six issues. Although illustrated by Bart Sears "Sins..." it's written by Marc Andreyko; in it Blade sports the tattoo from the movie on the back of his head, and on the last page there's a caption that reads: "For the final battle between Blade and Deacon Frost, check out New Line Cinema's motion picture "Blade" starring Wesley Snipes and Stephen Dorff in theatres now! which can be taken as opportunism on Marvel's part to promote the movie and not necessarily to either rule the book out of continuity or say the story from the book will continue in the movie. 

The Vampire Hunter six issue series runs from December 1999 to May 2000. Written and illustrated by Bart Sears, Blade again is seen with the tattoo from the movie. Also, Blade remembers Spider-Man presence when Morbius bites his arm after being released (in PPSM2 8, August 1999). At some point a couple of guys even check Blade's arm and see the holes left by Morbius' bite on his right arm (exact same place as PPSM2 8). So, I'm wondering if somebody would care to explain why this series is being left out of continuity. Was it for the tattoo, which, for chronology purposes could be non-permanent? Was it because issue 2 had a variant cover with Wesley Snipes' picture on it? Or was it just because it was done by Bart Sears?

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 07:13 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

I think it's cannonical. I also think it sucks, but that's no reason to toss it from a canon standpoint. It's been too long since I read it, but I don't remember anything that said noncanon.

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Thread 78

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 05:38 am    Post subject: What's coming from Marvel in February
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Now up at Newsarama. 

- MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN has a new creative team: Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa and Angel Medina. 

- Ed Brubaker and Michael Lark take over DAREDEVIL. 

- PUNISHER: BLOODY VALENTINE one-shot. 

- FURY: PEACEMAKER miniseries by Garth Ennis and Darick Robertson. Seems to be a war story set in World War II, before his Howling Commandos career. 

- SAGA OF THE SQUADRON SUPREME. Recap book about SUPREME POWER before its upcoming relaunch as a Marvel Knights title. 

- WOLVERINE fights the Winter Soldier, which is... interesting. 

- I HEART MARVEL: Five one-shots for Valentine's Day. Spider-Man & Mary Jane, Vision & Scarlet Witch, a mutant issue, and... the Answer?!? And yes, I know that's only four. But it says five, and it lists four. 

- MARVEL ROMANCE REDUX: BUT HE SAID HE LOVED ME. Five issue miniseries with Keith Giffen re-dialoguing old romance comics. (He's done this before with war comics and it was quite good.) 

- AMAZING FANTASY #18 features a back-up story about Mark Hazzard, Merc, as build-up for March's New Universe event. No, honestly. 

- FF PRESENTS: FRANKLIN RICHARDS, SON OF A GENIUS - EVERYBODY LOVES FRANKLIN. Another one-shot, presumably original material this time. 

- Greg Pak takes over INCREDIBLE HULK and begins "Planet Hulk." 

- MARVEL LEGACY: THE 1960S HANDBOOK. What the Official Handbook would have looked like, if published on 1 January 1970. Seriously. 

- GIANT-SIZE MS MARVEL #1, with 16 pages of original material. Trailing, believe it or not, March's ongoing MS MARVEL series. 

- UNDERWORLD. Five issue miniseries by Frank Tieri, about... well, the underworld. 

- ASTONISHING X-MEN returns with issue #13. It's a second year on the title! Technically! Because it's bimonthly now, so they only have to do six issues! 

- STORM miniseries, guest starring the Black Panther. They're insisting that this is leading to something important in July. 

- X-MEN: APOCALYPSE/DRACULA. Four-issue miniseries by Frank Tieri. It, er, doesn't exactly sound like a winning concept to me. 

- A shedload of HOUSE OF M trade paperbacks.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 07:45 am    
By PeteD

Some initial comments: 

Paul Gulacy - love his stuff. 

Daredevil - 40 pages NO ADS!!! and Brubaker. Wow. 

Romance - nice change of pace. 

She-Hulk cover - oops, wrong forum. 

Pete.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 08:48 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Trailing, believe it or not, March's ongoing MS MARVEL series. 
<<<


As this concept worked so well the first time..... 

Dave

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 09:01 am    
By lkseitz

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
- AMAZING FANTASY #18 features a back-up story about Mark Hazzard, Merc, as build-up for March's New Universe event. No, honestly. 
<<<

"March's New Universe event"? I hope that's not like the Marvel Knights 2099 event. Bleah! I already have misgivings since Merc is DEAD! Wish I had time to get started on a New Universe web site. 

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
- MARVEL LEGACY: THE 1960S HANDBOOK. What the Official Handbook would have looked like, if published on 1 January 1970. Seriously. 
<<<

That could be interesting.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 10:29 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, if you hated the Marvel 2099 event, you'll be delighted to hear that Robert "I Get Paid To Write Fanfic" Kirkman is bringing back his lead character from MUTANT 2099 in February's MARVEL TEAM-UP.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 11:20 am    
By PeteD

There are two titles on Marvel's listings for February not shown in the Solicitations appearing elsewhere: 

Arana Special 1 

Captain Universe 1

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 12:00 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Where are they "appearing elsewhere" at? Maybe those two titles have been held off for release in March? 

The cover images are now fully up at Newsarama.com 

Also, one small thing I noticed: the "Sentry" miniseries is noted as being only 6 issues long, yet last I checked, it was scheduled to be 8 issues long. So which is it?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 12:47 pm    
By PeteD

Captain Universe is listed for release Feb 8th here. 

Arana Special 1 is listed for release Feb 22nd here. 

By 'elsewhere' I was referring to the Solicitations being shown on websites other than Marvel.com. 

Pete.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 02:27 pm    
By Somebody

Both those pages are blank. 

I believe you on the Captain Universe score at least though, since the Amazing Fantasy backups and series of Captain Universe/guest-star one-shots were meant to lead into a CU mini in Feb. Wonder what's happened there?

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 02:45 pm    
By PeteD

Not sure what you mean by blank, follow the Catalog links on the Marvel.com main page for the comics to be on sale during February in case the link isn't ok. 

Here's the details for the titles by clicking on the 'more details' link in the main list: 

ARANA SPECIAL #1 

COVER BY: Takeshi Miyazawa 
WRITER: TBD - High 
PENCILS: Jonboy Meyers 
INKS: Mark Irwin 
COLORED BY: TBD - High 
LETTERED BY: VC - Rus Wooton 
PRICE: $3.99 
IN STORES: 02-22-2006 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE #1 

COVER BY: TBD - High 
WRITER: Jay Faerber 
PENCILS: Carlos Magno 
INKS: Al Vey 
COLORED BY: Guru-eFX 
LETTERED BY: VC - Rus Wooton 
PRICE: $2.99 
IN STORES: 02-08-2006 


Pete.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 03:50 pm    
By Somebody

I mean the left hand "featured titles" pane is empty, non-existant, cannot contain details as there are no details to contain.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2005 04:28 pm    
By PeteD

I would imagine the left-hand 'Featured Title' remains blank because the listings have only just been put up on the site, but the right-hand column lists all the titles solicited for that week, which is where the two titles were listed, and clicking on that link produced the information reproduced in my previous post. 

Interestingly, the two books no longer appear in the solicitations so it looks like someone listed them in error. 

Mystery solved. 

Pete.

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Posted: 16 Nov 2005 05:10 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm wondering if the missing fifth Romance one-shot will be solicited for the first Wednesday in March. 

And, hey, neat way to slim down the HoM TPBs from nine to eight. Marvel's saving me money!  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 03:10 am    
By JD

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And, hey, neat way to slim down the HoM TPBs from nine to eight. Marvel's saving me money!  
<<<

There is a slight contradiction in the credits of "HOUSE OF M: WORLD OF M FEATURING WOLVERINE TPB". The writer and artists credits suggest that the HoM contributions of NEW THUNDERBOLTS and CABLE & DEADPOOL are included, but that's not what the sollicitation actually say. So what ?

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Nov 2005 04:56 am    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
- MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN has a new creative team: Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa and Angel Medina. 
<<<

Angel's not the fastest penciller in the world, if I recall from his days on Warlock & the Infinity Watch and Hulk. And RAS hasn't exactly set the comics medium ablaze with his work on "Marvel Knights Superfluous 4". It IS strange that Hudlin is involved with the three-title crossover when he's not even involved with its aftereffects on any Spidey title. 

Quote: 
>>>
- PUNISHER: BLOODY VALENTINE one-shot. 
<<<

Featuring the instant return of Suspiria, who recently overtook the spot vacated by the Jackal's return in Punisher/Daredevil for the title of "character most requested to never come back from the dead", ". 

Quote: 
>>>
- MARVEL ROMANCE REDUX: BUT HE SAID HE LOVED ME. Five issue miniseries with Keith Giffen re-dialoguing old romance comics. (He's done this before with war comics and it was quite good.) 
<<<

Yeah, but he's not doing this one alone. It seems to take a committee to do this set, much like it took me and a whole 3 of my friends in middle school to redialogue all the issues of the Toxic Avenger. 

Quote: 
>>>
- Greg Pak takes over INCREDIBLE HULK and begins "Planet Hulk." 
<<<

What? Daniel Way was just a fill-in? Gasp! But he's got such a great track record! 

Quote: 
>>>
- GIANT-SIZE MS MARVEL #1, with 16 pages of original material. Trailing, believe it or not, March's ongoing MS MARVEL series. 
<<<

A lead-in to a monthly nobody asked for, written by the guy who's co-writing the other unrequested female hero revival, and drawn by the latest intern with big dreams and lots of pencils. Why is Moon Knight getting an Essential this month and not Missy Marv? 

Quote: 
>>>
- UNDERWORLD. Five issue miniseries by Frank Tieri, about... well, the underworld. 
<<<

For a second there I thought this was a tie-in to the movie about the leather-fetish lady with the werewolves and vampires. 

Quote: 
>>>
- X-MEN: APOCALYPSE/DRACULA. Four-issue miniseries by Frank Tieri. It, er, doesn't exactly sound like a winning concept to me. 
<<<

I honestly thought, if not hoped, Tieri was gone by now. He was the proverbial bad story punching bag a few years back, and has laid low, and all of a sudden is doing two mini's in a month. 

Quote: 
>>>
- A shedload of HOUSE OF M trade paperbacks. 
<<<

More like an "Arthur 'Two-Shedloads' Jackson" of them. 

No mention of "Operation Galactic Storm vol 1 TPB"? $30 for what you can get in your local bargin bin for less than $5!

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 08:16 am 
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
There is a slight contradiction in the credits of "HOUSE OF M: WORLD OF M FEATURING WOLVERINE TPB". The writer and artists credits suggest that the HoM contributions of NEW THUNDERBOLTS and CABLE & DEADPOOL are included, but that's not what the sollicitation actually say. So what ? 
<<<

Cable/Deadpool #17's off to the side in an alternate-world jumping arc featuring the "real" Deadpool, Cannonballs, Siryn and Cable (sort-of on the last); while New Tbolts #11 contains hints for future issues of that title, and both got lead-ins at the end of C/D #16 and NTB #10. They'll be in their own titles' TPBs.

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 11:14 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

JLH wrote: 
>>>
I honestly thought, if not hoped, Tieri was gone by now. He was the proverbial bad story punching bag a few years back, and has laid low, and all of a sudden is doing two mini's in a month. 
<<<

He's a friend of Joe Quesada - they worked on IRON MAN together. But to be fair, I thought his HERCULES miniseries was quite good. The thing with Tieri tends to be that his execution is hit and miss, but the underlying plot ideas are often quite good.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 11:55 am    
By JD

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Cable/Deadpool #17's off to the side in an alternate-world jumping arc featuring the "real" Deadpool, Cannonballs, Siryn and Cable (sort-of on the last); while New Tbolts #11 contains hints for future issues of that title, and both got lead-ins at the end of C/D #16 and NTB #10. They'll be in their own titles' TPBs. 
<<<

Yeah, that's what I thought too (and why I didn't put issue numbers). But then, why credit the creative teams of those books for this TPB ?

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 06:44 pm    
By garbonzo

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
- X-MEN: APOCALYPSE/DRACULA. Four-issue miniseries by Frank Tieri. It, er, doesn't exactly sound like a winning concept to me. 
<<<
 

So let me get this stright: Marvel cuts the global population of mutants down to 198...then reintroduces a dead mutant? I don't think this 198 number is going to stick for more than a year. 

garbonzo

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 09:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So let me get this stright 
<<<

Okay. 

Quote: 
>>>
Marvel cuts the global population of mutants 
<<<

Yes. 

Quote: 
>>>
down to 198 
<<<

No. 

According to lines of dialogue in recent Decimation books, there were 1-2 million mutants in the world before the Scarlet Witch reduced their population by 91.4%. Going by the lowest estimate of 1 million, that still leaves the world with 86,000 mutants. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 12:14 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

But wait, according to Emma in "HoM: The Day After", she says that their initial estimate was "conservative" and that the total mutants probably number in the "hundreds". I took that to mean there are somewhere near 1,000 mutants left. 

Whatever the exact number, it's definently more than 198.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 04:28 am    
By rhod

Besides which, I get the impression Apoc/Drac is set in Victorian England.

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Posted: 19 Nov 2005 10:19 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

It seems that way, but Apocalypse looks set to return in Pete Milligan's X-Men anyway.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 09:09 am    
By jephyork
Director

Never mind that Apocalypse didn't LOOK LIKE THAT when he was in Victorian England ... @#$%^&!!! 

And by the way, it's been confirmed that the fifth I <3 MARVEL one-shot is coming in March. Fans of the New Warriors should be very happy...  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Nov 2005 10:44 am    
By Somebody

Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 
>>>
rhod wrote: 
>>>
Besides which, I get the impression Apoc/Drac is set in Victorian England. 
<<<

It seems that way, but Apocalypse looks set to return in Pete Milligan's X-Men anyway. 
<<<

Technically, Cable/Deadpool #26 it seems, even though that'll be published after the first issue of Blood of Apocalypse 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Never mind that Apocalypse didn't LOOK LIKE THAT when he was in Victorian England ... @#$%^&!!! 
<<<

Well, let's face it - Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix is the anomoly, since scenes set before and after show him fundamentally the same...

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Nov 2005 02:18 pm    
By Starman

Well, shapechanging is one of Apocalypse's powers...
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 20 Nov 2005 06:33 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The 198 is the name of a group. It's not the actual number of remaining mutants, which is still considerably higher than that. Basically, the clock has been wound back to about 1970 in terms of the number of mutants in the world. (More significantly, they're also saying that the potential to mutate has been removed from human DNA, which presumably means that normal humans can no longer have mutant children. And that gives a new impetus to wiping out the remaining mutants so that they can't breed... but that's a point they haven't really explained properly so far.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 08:25 pm    
By garbonzo

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
According to lines of dialogue in recent Decimation books, there were 1-2 million mutants in the world before the Scarlet Witch reduced their population by 91.4%. Going by the lowest estimate of 1 million, that still leaves the world with 86,000 mutants. 
<<<


Ok. I knew I wasn't insane. This is from the recent (12/13) interview with Bendis. Now, I know that it is the interviewer making hte statement, but you would think that their fact checkers would go over this once. 

"The ending of "House of M" also proved to be a whopper for the Marvel Universe. The mutant population was depowered down to only 198 individuals and the last page of the series hints at a massive looming threat to life on Earth. "Something ominous is on the way," Bendis said. "It doesn't just suggest it. It flat out says it. Something's happened to the planet. It's not just the people in the planet. The planet has been affected and that's going to be addressed." 

Then later, Bendis says: 
"Because they're doing whatever they can to save the last 198 mutants from persecution by the fearful. As Tony said at the end of 'House of M', 'If we go out and tell everybody what happened, that would rile the rest of them up." 

So I am back to my original assertion that i am bothered by the fact that Marvel cuts the population to 198, then starts adding mutants. 
garbonzo

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 09:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I just think Bendis is bad with numbers -- numbers of mutants left, numbers of months between events, that kind of thing... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 79

Posted: 15 Dec 2005 01:19 am    Post subject: What's Coming from Marvel in March:
By Kevin W.
Director

To help us prepare for the chronology to come, here's the solicitations for March, 2006: 

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Mar_06/Mar_06solicits.html 

Highlights of the month include: 

SPIDER-MAN & ARAA SPECIAL: I notice Marvel's stopped solicitating for the ongoing Arana series after issue #12...and this special has a different writer...perhaps this special paves the way for a new direction with the regular ongoing series? Or maybe this is the last we'll hear from Arana for a while, (we can only hope)... 

SQUADRON SUPREME #1: The series drops the MAX imprint, and is rebooted as an ongoing Marvel Knights title... 

ANNIHILATION: PROLOGUE: The start of Marvel's next big event, which is some sort of Cosmic storyline, (it all gets underway next April)... 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 65TH ANNIVERSARY SPECIAL: A single issue story that ties in with the ongoing "General Lukin" plot in Captain America. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: FIRST FAMILY #1 (of 6): And I quote: "For the first time, untold secrets of the FFs earliest days are revealed!"  Chronology lovers beware! 

I (HEART) MARVEL: MASKED INTENTIONS: and MARVEL ROMANCE REDUX: GUYS & DOLLS #1: The last of the romance specials, (which started the previous month in February). 

MS. MARVEL #1: Because there was such a high demand for an ongoing Ms. Marvel series... 

NEW AVENGERS ILLUMINATI, (one-shot): Brian Bendis' latest attempt at revising Marvel history to suit his needs... 

PULSE #14: And I quote: "Its the end of an era. Bendis and Gaydos bid a fond farewell to the pages of the PULSE, but fear not, they are leaving with a doozy." Does this mean they're cancelling "the Pulse" or is it getting a new creative team? 

THUNDERBOLTS #100: Thunderbolts resumes it's original numbering! Sweeeeeet!  

UNTOLD TALES OF THE NEW UNIVERSE: 5 one-shot specials set in the original New Universe. 

And whatever you do, don't click on the cover of Daredevil #83, (unless you want spoilers revealed)...*kicks himself for clicking on the cover*
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 03:20 am    
By JLH

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
ANNIHILATION: PROLOGUE: The start of Marvel's next big event, which is some sort of Cosmic storyline, (it all gets underway next April)... 
<<<

Yeah, Newsarama did a story on it just a day or two ago. Looks like Giffen's taking his "Starlin appointed cosmic guy" role to the Nth level. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
FANTASTIC FOUR: FIRST FAMILY #1 (of 6): And I quote: "For the first time, untold secrets of the FFs earliest days are revealed!"  Chronology lovers beware!  
<<<

It's by Joe Casey, who did AEMH, and that had more going for it than against, which is all you can hope for with Marvel nowadays, continuity speaking. 


Quote: 
>>>
MS. MARVEL #1: Because there was such a high demand for an ongoing Ms. Marvel series...  
<<<

And unlike Spidey-Woman, doesn't have a Bendis-backed mini kicking it off. I'm sensing 9 issues published, then it's back to the booze she goes. 


Quote: 
>>>
PULSE #14: And I quote: "Its the end of an era. Bendis and Gaydos bid a fond farewell to the pages of the PULSE, but fear not, they are leaving with a doozy." Does this mean they're cancelling "the Pulse" or is it getting a new creative team? 
<<<

New team. I forget whom they're getting. Probably Ed Rhubarbbaker or someone close. Meanwhile my pitch for taking the Marvel Zombies approach one step closer and having a book all about dead Daily Bugle employees, such as Lance Bannon, Ned Leeds, and Phil Sheldon (he's gotta be pushing up newsprint daisies by now, sliding scale or not), remains unused! I called it "The No-Pulse". 


Quote: 
>>>
THUNDERBOLTS #100: Thunderbolts resumes it's original numbering! Sweeeeeet!   
<<<

Is that a one time thing, like with Shulkie 100, or is it permanent? 


Quote: 
>>>
UNTOLD TALES OF THE NEW UNIVERSE: 5 one-shot specials set in the original New Universe. 
<<<

I do find it ironic how these one-shots, the Exiles run, and the upcoming relaunch, all ignore the Quasar era of the NewU, yet the Milestones issue is REPRINTING Quasar 1. Similarly, they're putting Squadron Supreme's "Death of a Universe" back into print with a bunch of other tales as a TPB, yet are avoiding any of the Quasar appearances with it (that'd be a hell of a lot to include, but the first arc at least would be nice). 


Quote: 
>>>
And whatever you do, don't click on the cover of Daredevil #83, (unless you want spoilers revealed)...*kicks himself for clicking on the cover* 
<<<

That crazy Rhubarbbaker!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 06:47 am    
By Somebody

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
PULSE #14: And I quote: "Its the end of an era. Bendis and Gaydos bid a fond farewell to the pages of the PULSE, but fear not, they are leaving with a doozy." Does this mean they're cancelling "the Pulse" or is it getting a new creative team? 
<<<

New team. I forget whom they're getting. Probably Ed Rhubarbbaker or someone close. 
<<<

Paul Jenkins. And Jessica Jones is leaving with Bendis (since she's "Bendis' character"), to be replaced by Jenkins' own pet reporter (the one from GenM). 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
THUNDERBOLTS #100: Thunderbolts resumes it's original numbering! Sweeeeeet!   
<<<

Is that a one time thing, like with Shulkie 100, or is it permanent?  
<<<

Permanent. She-Hulk "100" was still solicited as issue 3.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Dec 2005 08:27 pm    
By Dhall

Ms. Marvel and the New Universe? 

Has Marvel become the House of (failed) Ideas? 

<Sigh> 

Dave
