	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Punisher stories missing from MCP
2. OVERMIND/GROM
3. A 92,95,97 corrections
4. Marvel Fanfare #39
5. IM 41-43, DD 81,84 additions, corrections
6. Valeria
7. Iron Man
8. BANCROFT, MARTINE
9. YANDROTH
10. Wolfe, Tom
11. A Question.
12. New Avengers 14
13. Red Skull's Exiles
14. Valeria and Valeria -- Fantastic Four
15. Iron Man: Inevitable
16. The Evil That Writers and Editors Do
17. Taskmaster entry error
18. Mythos #1
19. CA 144
20. SGTF 100
21. CA 145-148
22. A 98, 100 additions
23. MCKENZIE, LEONARD
24. Gilbert, Simon
25. Sub-M 47-51 additions & corrections
26. T 182-FB
27. H2 145
28. Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her Chronology...
29. T 184-188
30. Leader
31. Time-travelling in Bug #1
32. H2 148 additions
33. AGNEW, SPIRO T.
34. Captain America #13
35. Ravonna; where in Avengers#200?
36. Hulk2 147/2
37. Astonishng Tales 1-20
38. SVT 1/3
39. Sub-M 53,56, UX 64 Additions
40. T 195-205 Additions
41. IRON MAN #251 - #300
42. Characters involved in Heroes Reborn
43. Characters from FF 416 BTS in O:MU
44. Hermes in Tales of Suspense#57-58 text
45. Cable/DP #24 & New Tbolts #17 [SPOILERS]
46. CA 149-153
47. M/Fea 2-3
48. Truman, Harry S.
49. IM 49-FB
50. ASM 109
51. GIBBON/MARTIN BLANK
52. M/TU 5-6
53. CA 158
54. She-Hulk #3 (100) placements
55. Thor 208
56. Scott McDaniel BTS in Green Goblin?
57. She-Hulk: Ceremony
58. IRON MAN 267-268, TALES OF SUSPENSE 39
59. New Hulk observations...
60. U-MAn in Saga2
61. Scarecrow in FF@ 3
62. Iron Man
63. WOSM@ 3
64. What if the "What If" Specials were canon?!?
65. T 209
66. FF 131 additions
67. Supreme Hydra
68. The Awesome Slapstick
69. The Legion of Night: previous appearances
70. Man-Thing flashbacks
71. Uncle Ben and Aunt May first appearance in Strange Tales #97
72. Graybar
73. Spectacular Spider-Man #142
74. Behind the Scenes
75. Web of Spider-Man #42
76. Placement of Thor annual 2001 ?
77. holocaust
78. Chrono problems
79. Next Wave
80. X-Men/ Star Trek
81. Fantastic Four Annual #21
82. Void Indigo: possible reason for canonicity
83. Baron Mordo
84. Omissions: Jennifer Kale and family
85. Is Morlocks Canon?
86. CMS/CM2
87. The Avengers and the Watchtower
88. Key question
89. Richard Rory
90. Tarzan canon
91. Howard the Duck magazine
92. Iron Man BTS appearance in CX 4/2

	Issue Analysis Forum
93. Thor: Blood Oath 1-6
94. WOSM@4
95. Deathlok v3 1-3
96. Young Avengers Special
97. Deathlok v3 5-11
98. Nextwave #1 (1st six pages)
99. Annex #1-4
100. X-23 1-6
101. New X-Men Academy X Yearbook
102. Giant-Size Invaders #2
103. Spirits of Vengeance 7-12
104. Spirits of Vengeance 13-18
105. Blaze v1 1-4
106. Drax the Destroyer 1-4
107. Chronology Review for Arana: Heart of the Spider #7-12
108. Spirits of Vengeance 19-23
109. Chronology Review for the What If Specials...
110. Chronology Review for DD vs. Punisher #1-6:
111. Chronology Review for DD2 #66-70!
112. Blaze v2 1-6
113. Blaze v2 7-12

	Chat Forum
114. Non-Marvel comics
115. Board of Directors
116. Shameless Self-Promotion!




Thread 1

Posted: 19 Aug 2004 11:48 pm    Post subject: Punisher stories missing from MCP
By JLH

Why the absence of "Punisher: Kingdom Gone" (hardcover graphic novel from 1990) and "Punisher: G Force" (bookshelf format, 1992)? Not canon? Oversight? 

(I'd ask about the Howard the Duck Christmas Special from 1997 as well, but the less said, the better) 

JLH

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 12:52 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We'd welcome analyses of both books. 


watching: daria

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 07:32 am    
By Ant-Man

JLH wrote: 
>>>
I'd ask about the Howard the Duck Christmas Special from 1997 as well, but the less said, the better 
<<<

I remember a mall Santa being hurt in an escalator accident, and Howard battling the accountants of HYDRA...what's not to like about that? 

_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 12:46 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Other absent Punisher titles: 

Punisher: Die Hard in the Big Easy 
Punisher in the 'Nam: Final Invasion 
Wolverine/Punisher: Damaging Evidence 
Ghost Rider/Wolverine/Punisher: The Dark Design 

I'm sure at least a few of these are Gap books (I know the last two are). Incidentally, Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation should be listed as W/P2 since it's the second Wolverine/Punisher series. 

Punisher: A Man Named Frank is a Western pastiche and should be added to the non-canon list. 

-Sean

Last edited by SeanCurtin on 28 Nov 2004 07:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 01:31 pm    
By SeanCurtin

More Punisher: 

Punisher/Captain America: Blood and Glory 

...and missing Wolverine titles (most are Gap books, I think): 

Wolverine: Bloodlust 
Wolverine: Evilution 
Wolverine: Global Jeopardy (canon?) 
Wolverine: Inner Fury 
Wolverine: Killing 
Wolverine: Knight of Terra 
Wolverine/Nick Fury: Scorpio Rising 

Excalibur prestige format titles: 

Excalibur: XX Crossing 

Ghost Rider: 

Ghost Rider/Captain America: Fear (reprint?) 
Ghost Rider: Crossroads 

Nick Fury: 

Captain America/Nick Fury: Blood Truce 
Nick Fury/Black Widow: Death Duty 

and some Spider-Man: 

Spider-Man: The Arachnis Project 
Spider-Man: Get Kraven 
"Spider-Man: Kids in Trouble" (Skating on Thin Ice #1, Double Trouble #2, Hit and Run #3, Chaos in Calgary #4, Deadball #5) 
Spider-Man: The Power of Terror 
Spider-Man: Spirits of the Earth 
Spider-Man: Soul of the Hunter 
Spider-Man: Sweet Charity 
Spider-Man: Web of Doom 
Spider-Man/Power Pack 
Spider-Man/X-Factor: Shadowgames 

I'm sure most of these are Gap book, but I know quite a few aren't, like the Excalibur books or Soul of the Hunter. 

-Sean

Last edited by SeanCurtin on 28 Nov 2004 07:25 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 01:45 pm    
By Ant-Man

SeanCurtin wrote: 
Ghost Rider/Captain America: Fear (reprint?) 


Ghost Rider/Captain America: Fear is new material
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 02:45 pm    
By Dhall

Sean, 

Wolverine: Save the Tiger is a reprint of the Wolverine story from MCP 1-10. I don't think the GLobal Jeopardy one is canon, does anyone know for sure? 


I've covered some of the Wolverine (by no means all) bookshelf format issues in the Issue analysis thread, though I've stayed away from the gap issues. 

I belive that the Exclaibur Graphic Novel is listed as Excalibur Graphic Novel, rather than Weird War III. 


Dave H

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 03:28 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Also missing: 

1602 
The Agent graphic novel 
Ant-Man's Big Christmas 
Annex 
Black Widow: Pale Little Spider 
Blade: The Vampire Hunter (the Nightstalkers follow-up) 
Bug! 
Captain America/Nick Fury: The Otherworld War 
Century: Distant Sons 
Chamber 
ClanDestine 
Conspiracy 
Daredevil/Black Widow: Abattoir 
Deadline (not that hard to place in retrospect...) 
Domino vol. 2 
Druid 
Elektra: Glimpse and Echo 
Epic Anthology 
Exiles 
The Fantastic Fourth Voyage of Sinbad 
Fight-Man 
Gus Beezer one-shots (are they canon?) 
The Hood 
Howard the Duck (Max) 
Hulk: Gamma Games and Hulk: Unchained (video game tie-ins - may not be canon) 
Hulk: Nightmerica 
Legion of Night 
Lethal Foes of Spider-Man 
Lunatik 
Marvel Double Shot 
Marvel Knights Double Shot 
Marvel Saga (where applicable) 
Marvel Swimsuit Special '92-'95 
Meteor Man 
Moon Knight/Shang-Chi, Master of Kung Fu: Divided We Fall 
Moon Knight Special (1992)- reprint? 
Muties 
Namor (Tsunami series) 
Obnoxio the Clown vs. the X-Men 
Origin 
Punisher Armory (narrated by the Punisher - does that count as an appearance?) 
Sabretooth 
Sabretooth: Mary Shelley Overdrive 
Savage Hulk 
Scarlet Witch 
Shroud 
Silver Surfer: Dangerous Artifacts 
Silver Surfer: The Enslavers (I think there was a discussion that suggested this was chronologically dubious) 
Silver Surfer: Homecoming 
Silver Surfer: Loftier Than Mortals (reprint?) 
Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection 
Slapstick 
Sleepwalker Holiday Special 
Solo 
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure 
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Out of Reach 
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Year One 
Squadron Supreme: Death of a Universe 
Star Masters 
Tales of the Marvels: Blockbuster 
Taskmaster 
Thing: Freakshow 
Thing/She-Hulk: The Long Night 
Thor Corps 
Tigra 
True Heroes 
Truth: Red, White and Black 
Union Jack 
U.S. 1 
U.S.Agent vol. 1 
Vision vol. 2 
What If? (relevant issues, like TimeQuake) 
Wolfpack 
Wolfpack Graphic Novel 
Wolverine/Doop 
Wolverine: Netsuke 
Wolverine: Snikt! 
Wolverine: X-Isle 
X-Factor vol. 2 
X-Statix 

...plus all those Marvel UK and Ultraverse books. And the Western and war comics. And 2099, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Killraven, 2020, Starlord... I'm sure that several of these are Gap books and a few have already been claimed for analysis. 

-Sean

Last edited by SeanCurtin on 28 Nov 2004 07:29 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 03:32 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Wolverine: Save the Tiger is a reprint of the Wolverine story from MCP 1-10. I don't think the GLobal Jeopardy one is canon, does anyone know for sure? 

I've covered some of the Wolverine (by no means all) bookshelf format issues in the Issue analysis thread, though I've stayed away from the gap issues. 
<<<

OK, I'll fix the list. Don't know about Global Jeopardy. 


Quote: 
>>>
I belive that the Exclaibur Graphic Novel is listed as Excalibur Graphic Novel, rather than Weird War III. 
<<<

That makes sense. 

-Sean

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 05:01 pm    
By Ant-Man

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Special Collector's Edition: Savage Fists of Kung Fu (reprint?) 
<<<

Yes, that is reprinted stories 

Alpha Flight Special: First Flight is listed as AF SPECIAL 
The other Alpha Flight Special Edition series was reprints...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 09:41 pm    
By JLH

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Punisher: Cruise Hard (seriously) 
<<<


Was never published. I know it was announced all over the place, was going to be written by Abnett & his pal. But do a search on the net for it. Best you'll find is a page of the artwork on an "Unpublished Punisher stories" page. Same goes for a Chick Dixon written "Frank in the Savage Land" tale, and that old Jim Lee GN he never finished.

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 09:50 pm    
By JLH

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Spider-Man/Punisher: Funeral Pyre 
<<<

No such title. There IS "Spider-Man/Punisher: Family Plot" #1, and 2, which I did analysis for a year or two back. And there was also "Venom: Funeral Pyre" #1-3, which guested Punisher. 


SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Incidentally, Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation should be listed as W/P2 since it's the second Wolverine/Punisher series. 
<<<

Or be renamed to W/PR, with the first one being W/PDE, since they had proper subtitles, and the most recent Wolverine Punisher series didn't.

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 11:00 pm    
By Enda80

Iron Man: Crash takes place in an alternate future. That might make it non-canon. 

By the way, Hercules: Prince of Power also takes place in an alternate future, but since the Official Handbook entries for the Olympian Gods and Zeus does reference it as a possible future, does that make it as least as canonical as 2099?

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 11:00 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
Alpha Flight Special: First Flight is listed as AF SPECIAL 
<<<

OK. I missed it because it wasn't included in the Key. 

-Sean

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 11:04 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, Hercules: Prince of Power also takes place in an alternate future, but since the Official Handbook entries for the Olympian Gods and Zeus does reference it as a possible future, does that make it as least as canonical as 2099? 
<<<

Yes, but 2099 crossed over with the mainstream MU; to the best of my knowledge, H:PoP never did. I don't believe that there are any characters in the MCP whose series or universes haven't interacted with the mainstream MU at some point, with the notable exception of the Ultimate and MC-2 universes. 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 Aug 2004 03:14 am    
By rhod

Punisher:Eye for an eye was a reprint of War Journal 1-3

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Posted: 21 Aug 2004 04:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Yes, but 2099 crossed over with the mainstream MU; to the best of my knowledge, H:PoP never did. I don't believe that there are any characters in the MCP whose series or universes haven't interacted with the mainstream MU at some point, with the notable exception of the Ultimate and MC-2 universes. 
<<<

This thread has been split, and parts moved to the MC-2 Forum. 


watching: olympics

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 05:22 am    
By JLH

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Fight-Man 
<<<

Would the issue of Bill & Ted focusing mostly on FM's comic story be considering in-continuity for the Marvel U? If he's a comic to them, and he's canon, while they're not... Bah, tis confusing. 


SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Meteor Man 
<<<

Wasn't this the Robert Townsend movie adapatation series? If so, it's as much canon as the 2 "Sledge Hammer" issues. 


SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Punisher Armory (narrated by the Punisher - does that count as an appearance?) 
<<<

I personally think it's too goofy a notion. Like he's just sitting around, having a cup of tea, and talking about his weapons. Where would these be placed? Right before the weapons are used, if ever? He's almost borderline breaking the 4th wall in them. 


SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Silver Surfer: Homecoming 
Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection 
<<<

Homecoming came out in 1991, supposedly. The Resurrection mini seems to follow up right on its heels, but came out in about 93, so that's Gap country. I do wish I knew when the heck they take place, I'm trying to read those related books in that era! Best I can figure so far is sometime post-Infinity War. 

That reminds me, I notice Infinity Crusade has been added to the MCP. But a lot of the major players, like Warlock, lack listings. Are you guys waiting until all the related Warlock comics are analyzed before adding them, and if so, is this standard procedure?

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 06:47 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote: 
>>>
SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Meteor Man 
<<<

Wasn't this the Robert Townsend movie adapatation series? 
<<<

I don't think so. 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
That reminds me, I notice Infinity Crusade has been added to the MCP. But a lot of the major players, like Warlock, lack listings. Are you guys waiting until all the related Warlock comics are analyzed before adding them, and if so, is this standard procedure? 
<<<

Yes. You won't find the members of Alpha Flight or X-Factor there, either. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 07:11 am    
By jephyork
Director

"Meteor Man" did feature the character from the movie, but it wasn't an adaptation -- it played him straight, as a new hero in the Marvel Universe. Night Thrasher showed up in #4, I think. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 07:27 am    
By Ant-Man

JLH wrote: 
>>>
SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Punisher Armory (narrated by the Punisher - does that count as an appearance?) 
<<<

I personally think it's too goofy a notion. Like he's just sitting around, having a cup of tea, and talking about his weapons. Where would these be placed? Right before the weapons are used, if ever? He's almost borderline breaking the 4th wall in them. 
<<<

If the MCP included Punisher Armory, then that would open up a lot of "journal entry" appearances, like the Beast files in Marvel Vision...those would be very difficult to place
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 12:53 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

First person narration isn't a true appearance. It's just a storytelling convention. It doesn't really "happen" within the logic of the story world.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 08:45 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
"Meteor Man" did feature the character from the movie, but it wasn't an adaptation -- it played him straight, as a new hero in the Marvel Universe. Night Thrasher showed up in #4, I think. 
<<<

Spider-Man also appeared in at least one issue. 

-Sean 
 
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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 09:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

About Meteor Man.... 

First there was Meteor Man: The Movie #1, then Meteor Man #1 picked up where that left off. The Meteor Man saga was incorporated into the mainstream MU when Spidey and Mary Jane appeared in Meteor Man #3. Night Thrasher was in issues #4-5. The series ended with issue #6.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 11:23 pm    
By JLH

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
"Meteor Man" did feature the character from the movie, but it wasn't an adaptation -- it played him straight, as a new hero in the Marvel Universe. Night Thrasher showed up in #4, I think. 
<<<

Then what about the Darkman mini-series? I can't recall any guest stars, but it wasn't an adapatation, and didn't entirely preclude it being in the MU. 

I suppose this means NFL Superpro counts as well. Though, he was no worse than "The Human Fly- the first REAL superhero!"

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Posted: 25 Aug 2004 03:50 am  
By Enda80

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
If the MCP included Punisher Armory, then that would open up a lot of "journal entry" appearances, like the Beast files in Marvel Vision...those would be very difficult to place 
<<<

Don't forget the similarly themed Iron Manual one-shot for Iron Man.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2004 04:07 am    
By Enda80

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Then what about the Darkman mini-series? I can't recall any guest stars, but it wasn't an adapatation, and didn't entirely preclude it being in the MU. 

I suppose this means NFL Superpro counts as well. Though, he was no worse than "The Human Fly- the first REAL superhero!" 
<<<

Darkman....well, unless Darkman met someone, he should be placed in the same category as the Destroyer (Remo Williams), Battlestar Galactica, Logan's Run, Air Raiders, Visionnairies, Humanoids, Starriors, Star Wars, Robocop, Centurions, John Carter, Robotix, Sectaurs, et al. as non-continuity until proven otherwise. Liscensed characters who don't cross over with established characters should most probably be left out, even if they have original adventures. The laws of evidence should place the burden of proof on proving Earth-616 status. 

I must admit that I would have preferred Darkman getting incorporated into the Marvel Universe to Meteor Man. By the way, wasn't Meteor Man one of the last liscensed characters to be incorporated into mainstream continuity? I cannot think of any other liscensed characters who have crossed over with mainstream characters since then.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2004 05:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I tend to agree that licensed characters should be presumed to be non-canon in the absence of evidence to the contrary. My logic is that if Marvel publish, say, a DARKMAN comic based on the DARKMAN film, the starting assumption is that it's set in the universe of the film (or some variation thereof), and that universe clearly isn't the MU. These pre-existing characters have their own universes, and while they certainly could be imported into the MU if Marvel so wished, I'd look for positive evidence of Marvel intending to do so. 

On the other hand, even a throwaway reference to some feature of the MU would be enough (eg, somebody mentioning that the Avengers exist).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 09:46 pm    
By SeanCurtin

JLH wrote: 
>>>
SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Fight-Man 


Would the issue of Bill & Ted focusing mostly on FM's comic story be considering in-continuity for the Marvel U? If he's a comic to them, and he's canon, while they're not... Bah, tis confusing. 
<<<

The New Universe had Marvel Comics as fictional publications, but the NU later crossed over with the MU. For that matter, Marvel and DC have referenced each other's comics on occasion, but their universe have crossed over too. If Fight-Man is a native of Earth-616, then the Bill & Ted movie adaptation(s?) and ongoing series occur in a parallel universe where Marvel characters are fictional (well, moreso than usual). 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Silver Surfer: Homecoming 
Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection 
<<<

Homecoming came out in 1991, supposedly. The Resurrection mini seems to follow up right on its heels, but came out in about 93, so that's Gap country. I do wish I knew when the heck they take place, I'm trying to read those related books in that era! Best I can figure so far is sometime post-Infinity War. 
<<<

Homecoming probably occurs after the Surfer finally destroys Thanos' throne in SS3 65(ish). 

-Sean

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 12:08 am    
By JLH

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Homecoming probably occurs after the Surfer finally destroys Thanos' throne in SS3 65(ish). 
-Sean 
<<<

I've been re-reading the pertenant issues, and Homecoming isn't referenced in Silver Surfer until issue 76. Surfer mentions Nova's death, then Shalla's, in that order, implying it likely occured AFTER #75. Moondragon, with the Mind Gem, is in Homecoming, and Surfer knows of the Infinity Watch (called "The Infinity Guard" there, Starlin writing ahead of the team name's decision). There's no real breaks in time in the first 7 issues of W&TIW for Moondragon to go off with the Gem and have any solo adventures. So it'd have to be post-IW for her, and given that the Herald Ordeal picks up with Surfer & Nova immediately following IW's end, it all likely occurs between 75 & 76 for him. As for Resurrection, Adam Warlock's out of his coma, but Maxam's not on the team, so it'd have to be between about W&TIW 15 & 16 for them, and sometime before IC for Surfer. 

This'll all be covered in the Gap, I'm just throwing me 2 cents in about it.

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Posted: 08 Jul 2005 11:19 am    
By Enda80

The 1992 Moon Knight one-shot by Bruce Jones and Denys Cowan is not a reprint. It has Bushman in it. I may do a write-up of it.

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Posted: 01 Jan 2006 11:44 am    
By jannepie

Do you still need analysis for Annex #1-4?

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Thread 2

Posted: 01 Jan 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: OVERMIND/GROM
By Dhall

OVERMIND/GROM 
**FF 115-FB 
FF 113 
FF 114 
FF 115 
FF 116 
DEF 114-FB

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Thread 3

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 07:45 am    Post subject: A 92,95,97 corrections
By Dhall

Nixon, Richard 
H2 139 
**A 92-BTS 
H2 147 

A 92-BTS: The President appoints a presidential commissioner to investigate the recent Kree attack on Earth. 


RONAN THE ACCUSER [KREE] 
INH3 1 
WI? 28/3 
A 95-FB ?This should be A 95-FB-BTS 
{FF 65} 
CM 5 
CM 10 

Ronan does not appear in A 95-FB, only his agents do, so this should be listed as 
A 95-FB-BTS 


FIN/PETER NOBLE 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 7 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 8 
COMEDY COMICS 9 
A 97 ?-Delete, this character appears only as one of Rick Jones mind-creations

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Thread 4

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Marvel Fanfare #39
By captamr

Hawkeye mentions how hard a time hes been giving everyone back at the compound implying the West Coast Avengers. He names Mockingbird specifically (pg. 2 pn. 4 5). The entire story is located in Yosemite National Park and is a solo adventure for Hawkeye. If Mockingbird gets a BTS, I would wonder if the other West Coasters should also? Either way: 

MOCKINGBIRD 

SOLOA 9 
*MFAN 39 (omit or BTS at best) 
WCA2 32
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 5

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 04:12 pm    Post subject: IM 41-43, DD 81,84 additions, corrections
By Dhall

Soulfather/Mikas (new listing) 
IM 42 
IM 43 

BYRD, SEN. HARRINGTON 
IM 10 
IM 41 <- Remove, hes not in this issue! Sen. Bryd has retired (according to IM 42) 
IM 99 
IM 100 

The name of the Senator persecuting Tony in IM 41-42 is Sen. Ernest McJavit. However it is revealed in IM 42, that the Senator has been replaced by one of Mr. Klines agents. 


BAAL (new listing) 
IM 41 
DD 81 
DD 84 

This Baal is the guy who Mr. Kline is working for. (He/It is some kind of computer from the far future.) He is neither of two Baals already listed in the MCP. He should probably be Baal II, and the Current Baal II, should probably be Baal III.

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 07:58 pm    Post subject: Valeria
By Dhall

VALERIA 
**M/SH 20-FB 
FF3 67-FB 
**M/SH 20 <-This is her first app., not H2 144. 
{H2 144} 
H2 144-FB 
H2 144 
FF3 67

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Thread 7

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 08:08 pm    Post subject: Iron Man
By Dhall

Iron Man 

IM 46 
H2 144 <-Remove, Iron Man is not in this issue (except as a flashback to H2 131) 
IM 47 
A 98 
A 99 
A 100

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 08:37 pm    Post subject: BANCROFT, MARTINE
By Dhall

BANCROFT, MARTINE 
ASM 102 <-- This should read ASM 102-FB 
**M/TU 3-FB 
VT 1-FB 
AIF 20-FB 
M/TU 3 
AIF 21

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Thread 9

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 09:13 pm    Post subject: YANDROTH
By Dhall

YANDROTH 
ST 164 
ST 165/2 
ST 166 
ST 167/2 
ST 168 
**M/FEA 1-FB 
M/FEA 1 
DEF 5 
DEF 69 

Edited: to make sense (see below)

Last edited by Dhall on 03 Jan 2006 07:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 12:58 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Huh? Do you mean that to be a flashback? 


watching: jimmy kimmel

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Thread 10

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 07:33 pm    Post subject: Wolfe, Tom
By Dhall

Wolfe, Tom (new listing) 
DRSTR 180 
H2 142

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 09:25 pm    
By Enda80

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Wolfe 

You do know that Tom Wolfe really exists, so his appearance is topical, the way Neal Conan's appearances are.

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 01:01 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

What's your point? Neal Conan has a listing here, just as David Letterman, and every other really existing person. 


watching: jimmy kimmel

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 07:10 pm    
By Dhall

sheesh, I know Tom Wolfe really exists. Lots of real people are listed in the MCP, Stan Lee for example.....An appearance is an appearance.

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Thread 11

Posted: 31 Dec 2005 11:34 am    Post subject: A Question.
By Dhall

Dr. Doom 
T 182-183 
AT (various) 
H2 143-144 
AT (various) 
FF 116 -- ??? 

Mr. Fantastic 
FF 107-116 
A 92, 94 

Thor 
A 93-100 
T 182-205 

Hulk 
H2 142-144 
(various issues) 
A 100 

Hi! I have a question about the above listings. Just from looking at them, Doom's listing looks screwy. Does Doom really appear in T 182-183, before FF 116, because if so, we have T 182-183 occuring both before and after A 92-100. 

Forgive me if there's some kind of time travel thing going on, I am asking the question, before I review all of the issues

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 03:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I believe the Thor, Hulk and Mr. Fantastic listings would have come from the Avengers Index, whereas Dr. Doom probably came from my own notes, so it looks like Dr. Doom is wrong. 

watching: tulsa vs fresno

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 08:03 pm   
By Dhall

Dooms listing has him appear in H2 143 & 144 in between At 3/2 and 4/2, BUT he destroys his palace in At 3/2, and its not rebuilt by At 4/2, yet he appears in it during H2 143-144. Also it appears that AT 4/2 occurs right after At 3/2. I propose that H2 143 -144 should occur between AT 5/2 and 6/2 (after the palace is rebuilt in at 4/2-5/2) 

How does the following sound? 

Dr. Doom 
T 182 <-deleted 
T 183 <-deleted 
AT 1/2 
AT 2/2 
AT 3/2 
H2 143 <-deleted 
H2 144 <-deleted 
AT 4/2 
AT 5/2 
H2 143 <-moved 
H2 144 <-moved 
AT 6/2 
AT 7/2 
AT 8/3 
FF 116 
SUB-M 47 
SUB-M 48 
SUB-M 49 
T 182 <-moved 
T 183 <-moved 
LCHFH 8 
LCHFH 9

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Thread 12

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 11:58 pm    Post subject: New Avengers 14
By Col_Fury

All right. Lets all take a tentative sigh of relief. 

Heres the good news: 
The issue picks up directly where A4 13 left off; Steve and Jessica having a discussion. She explains that shes a double agent, spying on SHIELD for her Hydra benefactors, and spying on Hydra for Fury. Also, shes still been working for him while hes been away from SHIELD, and that shes known where hes been in the meantime. At the end of the issue Fury contacts the Avengers, most likely setting up his return to SHIELD next issue. 

Here are the tricky bits: 
There are Sentinels seen on monitors in the Daily Bugle on pg1. These Avengers issues are still pre-HoM, so this cant be a reference to the Sentinels parked at the X-Mansion. Perhaps the Bugle is researching a story involving the US Governments recent stepped up production of Sentinels? Or maybe theyre researching a retrospective story on how theyve been used in the past? Or maybe its a reference to the Sentinel book? In any case, A4 11-15 is a continued story, and A4 16 will pick up directly after HoM according to interviews with Bendis. Much like the 'Wild Kingdom' crossover, why would the Avengers head off for Japan before dealing with the fallout of HoM?(and for comparison, why would the X-Men run off to Wakanda before dealing with the fallout of HoM?) 

Jessica said that Hydra, to give her back her powers, operated on her for seventeen months. But that doesnt line up with the six months ago reference in Giant-Size Spider-Woman. Both of these were written by Bendis, so there you go. 

Aside from that, things are looking pretty good so far...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 10:44 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
At the end of the issue Fury contacts the Avengers, most likely setting up his return to SHIELD next issue.  
<<<

I somehow doubt it. SHIELD doesn't want him to return to lead them, they want him to return so they can throw him in jail. I don't think the next issue will resolve anything. I hope to be proven wrong though.  

Quote: 
>>>
Jessica said that Hydra, to give her back her powers, operated on her for seventeen months. But that doesnt line up with the six months ago reference in Giant-Size Spider-Woman. Both of these were written by Bendis, so there you go. 
<<<


Yeah, that "17 months" reference just sickened me when I read it. I'm like, "Bendis, you can't just take a character out of the Marvel universe for 17 whole months...you had Spider-woman show up in Alias for crying out loud, remember that?" 

By the way, was that appearance in Alias supposed to be after or before the flashbacks shown in this issue?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 12:02 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
By the way, was that appearance in Alias supposed to be after or before the flashbacks shown in this issue? 
<<<

If memory serves, Jessica didn't have any of her powers in Alias. (I think there was even dialogue to that effect, not just an absence of her displaying powers. Of course, being a double double-agent (does that make her a quadruple agent?), she could have been lying.) 

Also, New Avengers #14 says that the procedure took 17 months, but it doesn't expressly say that Jessica was completely out of commission for that entire period. It may have been one day's worth of surgery every three or four weeks or something. So there could easily be some overlap between Jessica's first meeting with Connelly and her appearance in Alias. 

We do get verifcation, however, that SECWAR (the "current" stuff, not the year-ago flashbacks) occurs shortly before the breakout at The Raft.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 02:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Also, New Avengers #14 says that the procedure took 17 months, but it doesn't expressly say that Jessica was completely out of commission for that entire period. It may have been one day's worth of surgery every three or four weeks or something. So there could easily be some overlap between Jessica's first meeting with Connelly and her appearance in Alias.  
<<<

I wouldn't recommend that. 

The fact remains that, as Col_Fury noted, Bendis is inconsistent with himself when it comes to temporal references. No great shock there. 

He says that GSSW 1, in which Connelly approaches Jessica, occurs "six months" before A4 7. A4 14 cannot occur anymore than a month after A4 7, since: 
1) there's a reference in A4 11 to the Raft breakout having occurred "last month," and 
2) A4 8, which continues from A4 7, occurs "one week" after the Raft breakout. 
So, A4 14 is at most seven months after GSSW 1. 

Then he says that A4 1 occurs at least "seventeen months" after GSSW 1. That places A4 14 at least eighteen months after GSSW 1. But you also have to add time for Jessica to assume and play the role of double-agent for a while between the end of that seventeen-month process and SECWAR, which in turn occurs before A4 1. So we're talking a good nineteen months between GSSW 1 and A4 14 at least. 

So which is it -- no more than seven or at least nineteen? It can't be both. I propose we "pull a Cable" here and make seventeen months seventeen weeks instead.  

This not only preserves the earlier six-month reference, but it allows the ALIAS appearance to happen well before GSSW 1, not during a time when Jessica is undergoing her Hydra procedure.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 05:09 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
If memory serves, Jessica didn't have any of her powers in Alias. (I think there was even dialogue to that effect, not just an absence of her displaying powers. Of course, being a double double-agent (does that make her a quadruple agent?), she could have been lying.) 
<<<

No, I recently reread this story arc: Jessica Drew has her powers in Alias. The first time she meets up with Jessica Jones, she uses her venom blasts on her, (because she thinks Jones is breaking into her office). 

The whole point of that story arc was to constrast Jessice Jones to Jessica Drew, (Jessica Jones has a small time private detective agency, and most of the time sits around drinking, while Jessica Drew was a big time detective agency, who travelled around the world on cases). In other words, Bendis established Drew as a successful superpowered Detective back in Alias. 

So was it Bendis who depowered her? Or some other writer in some other book? That's why I ask when the storyline in Alias occurs in relationship to the timeline Bendis supplied here in this issue.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 06:34 pm    
By Somebody

As far as I can tell: 

Jessica was supposedly totally depowered in the Avengers issue that undid her "death" at the end of her solo series 

Claremont partially undid this in her Wolverine appearances, giving her her wall-crawling and at least some of her super-strength back 

Greunwald, shortly before his death, had her fully repowered (and in costume) in a Spider-Man Annual back-up where Julia Carpenter rescued her from another dimension or something. Supposedly, he planned to follow up on this, but, y'know... 

Byrne depowered her again in the Spider-reboot by having the eevill Spider-Woman drain her powers. Then undid this depowerment during the Spider-Woman (Mattie) series, but had her put on the costume again to swear she'd never put on the costume again (!?) 

Then she turned up in Bendis' Alias, out-of-costume but fully-powered. 

So, apparently, Bendis set up something that looks very like a strawman in GSSW, depowering her so he could be the one to repower her...

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 09:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So sometime between ALIAS 21 and GSSW 1, Jessica Drew was de-powered for the third time in her life. 

I have Jessica appearing in costume twice in that span of time: 

First, she's among the heroes in the Disassembled mess in A 503. There's some debate about whether this is her or not, as Wanda planted at least one magical doppelganger (Pietro) at this scene. I can't recall if she exhibited any powers during the melee. If it's really her, she may still have her power or she may not. 

Second, she attends a memorial service for Ant-Man, Hawkeye, Jack of Hearts, and Vision. This happens in HERCULES #1-FB (7-9). Now, just because she has her costume on doesn't mean she has her powers here. Perhaps her appearance in costume is an expression of her longing to regain her powers, making her ripe for recruitment by Hydra in GSSW 1. I place GSSW 1 very shortly after this flashback and I'm inclined to think she's de-powered at this time. 

Gosh, with so much experience in losing powers, you'd think she'd have gotten used to this by now... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 10:25 pm   
By Somebody

Finch smegged up. That was meant to be Julia in Disassembled according to one of the Handbook guys who saw the script. Call it a dopplehanger. 

And I think that she was the one art-patched in over Wanda in that memorial service (seriously, the online preview had the Scarlet Witch there...) in Herc. Clearly not much attention was being paid there either way whether or not she was patched in or already there... 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Gosh, with so much experience in losing powers, you'd think she'd have gotten used to this by now...  
<<<

Especially since she's been pretty consistantly happy or not caring over not being a superheroine any more.

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 10:49 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
That was meant to be Julia in Disassembled according to one of the Handbook guys who saw the script. Call it a dopplehanger.  
<<<

Or...it was Julia wearing the original Spider-Woman togs in A 503...and, perhaps, again in HERC 1-FB. Since Jessica Drew had never been an Avenger prior to this point, it would make sense for it to be Julia not only in A 503 but also in HERC 1-FB. 


Quote: 
>>>
Especially since she's been pretty consistantly happy or not caring over not being a superheroine any more. 
<<<

Another theory: hearing that Julia Carpenter had been going around in the original costume design, Jessica started missing her powers and developed a longing to be Spider-Woman again. 

How will the MCP handle these two appearances? Jessica in both? Julia in both? Julia in A 503 and Jessica in HERC 1-FB?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 12:34 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Another thing I think needs taken into consideration: 

Pg. 15: After having recieved her powers back, and having come back to work for SHIELD, Jessica is feeding info to both Hydra and to SHIELD. 

She tells Nick Fury: "Hydra has a splinter group setting up camp in Iraq. They want to help the Saddam Abed Dasam build his-" 

Nick Fury: "We know that." 

Jessica: "He has the Scorpio Key." 

Isn't this a reference to the last volume of Elektra, (issues #1-6)? If so, does this flashback occur before Electra #1-6? Putting the whole sequence from GSSW #1 before that point? 

Also, Jessica tells Connely: "...have you heard of a SHIELD defense initiative called the God's Eye?" I believe this is a reference to the evil satellite from the current Hulk #88-91. But that was put in space during the cold war, so I don't believe this flashback signals much.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 04:08 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
That was meant to be Julia in Disassembled according to one of the Handbook guys who saw the script. Call it a dopplehanger.  
<<<

Or...it was Julia wearing the original Spider-Woman togs in A 503...and, perhaps, again in HERC 1-FB. Since Jessica Drew had never been an Avenger prior to this point, it would make sense for it to be Julia not only in A 503 but also in HERC 1-FB. 
<<<

You're reaching over and beyond a gaping chasm there: 

1) Julia = light-red hair. Jessica = black hair 
2) No indication that Julia has her powers back, and the Avengers HB 2005 is under the impression that she doesn't 
3) Julia was last heard of residing on the west coast of the USA again 
4) Wasn't Julia in a wheelchair last we saw her?

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 05:20 am    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Pg. 15: After having recieved her powers back, and having come back to work for SHIELD, Jessica is feeding info to both Hydra and to SHIELD. 

She tells Nick Fury: "Hydra has a splinter group setting up camp in Iraq. They want to help the Saddam Abed Dasam build his-" 

Nick Fury: "We know that." 

Jessica: "He has the Scorpio Key." 

Isn't this a reference to the last volume of Elektra, (issues #1-6)? If so, does this flashback occur before Electra #1-6? Putting the whole sequence from GSSW #1 before that point?  
<<<

I just flipped through those Elektra issues(written by Bendis, of course) and yes, this is a reference to that storyline.(same situation, same names, Scorpio Key, etc) Elektra #6 is the same day as Daredevil #28, so Elektra #1-5 occurs before Daredevil #28. 

So, how does the Spider-Woman(Mattie) series and Alias line up with Daredevil at this time? 

Alias #3 is before Daredevil #35, because Jessica and Matt met for the first time in Alias #3, and they already know each other in Daredevil #35. 

Now keep in mind, every one of these comics were written by Bendis. This gives us: 
Giant-Size Spider-Woman #1: Jessica Drew is approached by Hydra. 
A4 14-FB: Jessica Drew is working as a double agent. She informs Fury of the Scorpio Key situation in Iraq. 
Elektra 1-5: Fury hires Elektra to take care of said Scorpio Key situation in Iraq. 
Elektra #6 & Daredevil #28: same day. 
Alias #3: Jessica Jones and Matt Murdock meet for the first time. 
Daredevil #35: Jessica Jones and Matt Murdock know each other. 
Alias #20: Jessica Drew says she returned to the states to find Mattie. She also says that she's been having trouble with her powers lately. She also calls a special agent to get information on a lead. 

OK, so Drew has been out of the states at this point, but she's also having trouble with her powers. It's likely that she's an active SHIELD agent at this point, having contacts with special agents. But does this mean that the seventeen months of surgery were still going on while she was being a double agent? 

Looking back at Giant-Size Spider-Woman #1, it starts with "Six months ago..." and ends with "To be continued in New Avengers!" The inferrance is that this is six months before New Avengers, but it never specifically says that it's 'six months ago' from anything. 

As long as we're talking about Daredevil & Elektra, there's been a few references lately to Elektra being in charge of the Hand. When did this happen? Am I forgetting/missing something?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 09:15 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This is another huge mess in Marvel continuity. 

Consider this, folks...GSSW 1 has to occur after A 503, given that in GSSW 1 Jessica refers to "whatever the hell happened at Avengers Mansion that killed half the team." 

So...we're to believe in the following sequence??? 

Hawkeye is killed in Dissasembled (A 500-503) 

Then Jessica is approached to be double agent in GSSW 1 

Then comes "seventeen months" of the procedure that restores Jessica's powers, followed by some time of Jessica being a double agent. 

Then comes Jessica's meeting with Fury in which Fury is told about the Scorpio Key in Iraq. 

Then we get ELEK2 1-5. 

Then comes DD2 28. 

Then sometime after that, Matt Murdock's secret ID is made public. 

Some span of time thereafter, Matt overthrows the Kingpin in DD2 50. 

Then comes that infamous gap of "one year" until we get to DD2 57. 

After that comes DD2 61, in which we see Hawkeye in his armored sleeve. 

So, yeah, that makes a whole lot of freakin' sense, Bendis. 


I'm afraid we have to chalk up that Scorpio Key reference in GSSW 1 to the key returning to Dasam many, many months after he had it for the first time in ELEK2 1-5. When last we saw the key in ELEK2 5, Elektra handed it over to the man who shot her father. So somehow the key made its way back to Iraq, where Dasam is making another bid for power that's known to SHIELD. That's gotta be it. To think that GSSW 1 occurs both after A 503 and before ELEK2 1 is the way to madness... 

Thanks again, Bendis. Good work with yet another example of "A is before B, which is before C, which is before A." 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 10:10 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm afraid we have to chalk up that Scorpio Key reference in GSSW 1 to the key returning to Dasam many, many months after he had it for the first time in ELEK2 1-5. When last we saw the key in ELEK2 5, Elektra handed it over to the man who shot her father. So somehow the key made its way back to Iraq, where Dasam is making another bid for power that's known to SHIELD. That's gotta be it. To think that GSSW 1 occurs both after A 503 and before ELEK2 1 is the way to madness... 
<<<

Isn't the Scorpio Key (Keys?) non-sentient, and it's the Zodiac Key that keeps resurrecting Jake Fury?

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 08:03 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Alias #20: Jessica Drew says she returned to the states to find Mattie. She also says that she's been having trouble with her powers lately. She also calls a special agent to get information on a lead.  
<<<

Jessica stated that she was having problems with her powers in that issue? Hmm...then maybe Bendis was setting up the loss of her powers way back in Alias. Maybe her powers completely faded after her appearance in Alias. Or maybe she was undergoing that "17 months" of surgery during that period when she appeared in Alias, and her powers were slowly returning in spurts over that time, (working some days, not working others). 


Quote: 
>>>
Consider this, folks...GSSW 1 has to occur after A 503, given that in GSSW 1 Jessica refers to "whatever the hell happened at Avengers Mansion that killed half the team."  
<<<

Well, it wasn't really "half the team" that was killed, was it? It was just Hawkeye, Vision, and Ant Man. Could this be a reference to some other incident at Avengers Mansion? But there's also the "6 months ago" reference in GSSW 1, (which is clearly meant to fit in with the time frame shown in New Avengers...) 

I'm really looking for the magic wand to make this all work, but I'm not sure we're going to find it...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 09:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Well, it wasn't really "half the team" that was killed, was it? It was just Hawkeye, Vision, and Ant Man. Could this be a reference to some other incident at Avengers Mansion? 
<<<

Jack of Hearts died too, and Wasp and Captain Britain were injured, but yes, Jessica was exaggerating (although not overly much if you count only the active roster at the time). But you're not really expecting to find an even more cataclysmic incident in which fully half of the team really did die? I think this was meant to be a clear reference to Disassembled. And, of course the reference to the Scorpio Key was meant to be a clear reference to future events in ELEK2 1-5. (Gotta love Bendis.) At this point, I'd prefer to explain away the Dasam reference and chalk up that seventeen month reference to "Bendis time." Someone has to sic the TVA on that guy...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 11:30 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Doh! Forgot about Jack of Hearts... 

But yes, it appears we've got to choose which reference to go with: the Disassembled reference in GSSW 1 or the Scorpio Key reference in New Avengers 14. You're probably right that choosing the first is the safer bet.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 03:43 am    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Consider this, folks...GSSW 1 has to occur after A 503, given that in GSSW 1 Jessica refers to "whatever the hell happened at Avengers Mansion that killed half the team."  
<<<
 
I can't believe I forgot about that... 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm afraid we have to chalk up that Scorpio Key reference in GSSW 1 to the key returning to Dasam many, many months after he had it for the first time in ELEK2 1-5. When last we saw the key in ELEK2 5, Elektra handed it over to the man who shot her father. So somehow the key made its way back to Iraq, where Dasam is making another bid for power that's known to SHIELD. 
<<<

That works for me. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Someone has to sic the TVA on that guy... 
<<<
 
As for Spider-Woman being present at Avengers mansion during Disassembled, I don't see how that can be her. She didn't know what happened there, and she was on the other side of the country. I think that she'll have to be a Scarlet Witch creation, but why Spider-Woman of all people?  

As for Spider-Woman being in Hercules 1-FB, it's possible... She may have gone through some power-replacement surgeries by that time, and possibly regained some of her powers, so I guess I could see why she'd be there in costume. But why? Maybe she was there to find out some things for Hydra? Or maybe she was there for SHIELD to find out what some of the heroes statuses were? Or both? Or maybe she was just there to show some sympathy? In any case, I don't think Jessica Drew being there presents too many problems... 

I have to wonder just how much Spider-Woman: Origin will cover/explain/destroy... How long has she been a SHIELD agent? A4 14 seems to suggest quite a while, and if that's the case, does that really disrupt anything? Has it been established anywhere else that she's with SHIELD, or was this a Bendis revelation? I'm picking up the Essential Spider-Woman this week or next to prepare myself for Spider-Woman: Origin, so I guess I'll find out soon enough. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 13

Posted: 03 Jan 2006 07:49 pm    Post subject: Red Skull's Exiles
By Dhall

This is the original team called Exiles, who worked for the Red Skull. 

Baldini (new listing) 
CA 102 
CA 103 
CA 104 
CA 115-FB 
CA 116 
CA 117 
AT 4/2-FB 
AT 4/2 
AT 5/2 

Cadavus (new listing) 
CA 102 
CA 103 
CA 104 
CA 115-FB 
CA 116 
CA 117 
AT 4/2-FB 
AT 4/2 
AT 5/2 


Ching, Gen. (new listing) 
CA 102 
CA 103 
CA 104 
CA 115-FB 
CA 116 
CA 117 
AT 4/2-FB 
AT 4/2 
AT 5/2 


Grunning(new listing) 
CA 102 
CA 103 
CA 104 
CA 115-FB 
CA 116 
CA 117 
AT 4/2 
AT 5/2 


Iron Hand Hauptmann(new listing) 
CA 102 
CA 103 
CA 104 
CA 115-FB 
CA 117 
AT 4/2 
AT 5/2 
IM3 6

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 06:40 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Iron-Hand Hauptmann's IM3 appearance is currently listed in the MCP under the name "Hauptman". 

-Sean

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Thread 14

Posted: 11 Sep 2005 09:43 pm    Post subject: Valeria and Valeria -- Fantastic Four
By CoolJerk

For your consideration 

VALERIA (5th Dimension) 
{ST 103} 
FF 159 
FF 161 
FF 162 

VALERIA ROSIKON (Latverian citizen) 
FF3 67-FB 
FF 278-FB 
DSDDGN (Triumph & Torment)-FB 
M/SH 20-FB 
MARVEL DOUBLE-SHOT 2-FB 
{M/SH 20} 
H2 144 
H2 144-FB 
H2 144 
FF3 67 
FF 501 
FF 502 


The early flashback appearances of Latverian Valeria are all pretty much the same story, showing her early involvement with Victor von Doom. Valeria's appearances in FF 501 and 502 are not really flashbacks, but time-travel visits to Latveria when von Doom and Valeria were teens. I don't know if you would count these -- are time-travel stories (and their alternate-reality implications) considered canon? 

The chronology page right now has Valeria Rosikon minus her first appearance in Marvel Super-Heroes 20 and her appearances in the Dr. Strange/Dr. Doom graphic novel "Triumph & Torment," FF 278, 501, 502 and Marvel Double-Shot 2 (I suppose the one for DSDDGN is redundant to FF 278, but it is where Boris mentions that Valeria is his granddaughter). 

So far as I know, 5th-Dimension Valeria has no other appearances.

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Posted: 11 Sep 2005 10:01 pm    
By CoolJerk

Oh, yeah -- 

Valeria Rosikon (von Doom) also appears in FF: House of M 1-3. Don't know how this HOM stuff is going to wedge into the 616 chronology, but I thought I should mention it.

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 01:11 pm    
By CoolJerk

Just a head's up -- Valeria Rosikon appears in at least the first issue of the "Books of Doom" limited series, in flashbacks to von Doom's childhood/adolescence. I imagine she'll appear in flashback form throughout the series.

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 07:25 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/valeriadoom.htm 
covers Beauty and the Beast#1 under comments. 

By the way, why did Valeria get so old? Her recent appearances have her all wrinkled. Did Mark Waid only remember Valeria from that FF I#278 fb to the pre-modern era and was unaware that she had appeared very youthful in Hulk II#144 and in MSH#20, both of which take place during the modern era?

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 07:41 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, why did Valeria get so old? Her recent appearances have her all wrinkled.  
<<<

That's not to show her age; it's a warning to those who spend too much time in tanning beds. 

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 09:30 pm    
By Dhall

Some people age very poorly.....

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Thread 15

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 03:37 am    Post subject: Iron Man: Inevitable
By Col_Fury

The first issue shows Tony Stark helping out SHIELD on August 25, and Iron Man mentions that Fury signed off on the deal that was made. So we have Col. Fury in charge of SHIELD on Aug 25. 

What does the current draft of the Calendar look like? I think we have HoM in September, but where do we tentatively have A4 14-15? And all in between? Assuming, of course, that Fury is reinstated in A4 15... 

I don't think that this can be pushed forward a year, seeing as how next years big crossover is Civil War, and who knows how long that will last. It's supposed to change the Marvel Landscape! Everything we know will be different! Watch out! 

Or will he have to rule Aug 25 as topical? 

Paul Bourcier said elsewhere: 
>>>
Man, this whole Fury thing can really screw us over... 
<<<

Yes. More so each week...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 07:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The first issue shows Tony Stark helping out SHIELD on August 25, and Iron Man mentions that Fury signed off on the deal that was made. So we have Col. Fury in charge of SHIELD on Aug 25. 

What does the current draft of the Calendar look like? I think we have HoM in September, but where do we tentatively have A4 14-15? And all in between? Assuming, of course, that Fury is reinstated in A4 15... 
<<< 


Right now, Inevitable fits right into that August slot between a presumed Fury reinstatement in A4 15 and HOM. It's one of the many Fury appearances that will have to occur during that summer (including HELLIONS, HERCULES, FOES, M/TU3, and CA5), and those are working pretty well, too. It looks like everything will work fine IF Fury gets back in charge of SHIELD soon.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 16

Posted: 08 Dec 2005 03:18 pm    Post subject: The Evil That Writers and Editors Do
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, I just knew that there would be major continuity issues raised by the fact that issues #4-6 of Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do are coming out three and a half years after issues #1-3. You know...the obvious prediction that the first three issues would be grounded in the MU as published in 2002 while the last three issues would be set in the MU as we know it in 2005-06 even though only two MU days separate issues #3 and 4. 

Let's take issue #2, for example. In it, Mr. Brownstone mentions that the Kingpin is blind (from DD2 15) and also believes him to be dead, so wouldn't this story have to occur sometime between DD2 29-FB (9-16) and DD2 45? Also in issue #2, Peter is flirting big-time with Felicia, which was easy to understand during a period of time in which Peter was not seeing or talking to M.J.  between ASM@ 01 and ASM2 43. 

Now let's take issue #4, which occurs three days after issue #2. Murdock mentions the White Tiger trial, so this story must occur after DD2 40. But it gets better -- Peter tells Matt, I stood by you when you went nuts and declared yourself the new Kingpin, which places this story sometime after DD2 50. The help that Peter mentions might actually be a reference to DD2 56-FB, which is supposed to occur a "year" after DD2 50 -- many months after Kingpin was known to be alive and Peter and M.J. got back together. 

I wince when I think of the references that may await in issues #5 and 6. 

_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 08 Dec 2005 04:38 pm    
By Somebody

ReLoad-costume Nightcrawler's due to turn up soon  [I was expecting to see him in this issue actually, given that the preview page has been floating around a while]

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Posted: 08 Dec 2005 10:47 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Let's take issue #2, for example. In it, Mr. Brownstone mentions that the Kingpin is blind (from DD2 15) and also believes him to be dead, so wouldn't this story have to occur sometime between DD2 29-FB (9-16) and DD2 45? Also in issue #2, Peter is flirting big-time with Felicia, which was easy to understand during a period of time in which Peter was not seeing or talking to M.J.  between ASM@ 01 and ASM2 43. 

Now let's take issue #4, which occurs three days after issue #2. Murdock mentions the White Tiger trial, so this story must occur after DD2 40. But it gets better -- Peter tells Matt, I stood by you when you went nuts and declared yourself the new Kingpin, which places this story sometime after DD2 50. The help that Peter mentions might actually be a reference to DD2 56-FB, which is supposed to occur a "year" after DD2 50 -- many months after Kingpin was known to be alive and Peter and M.J. got back together. 
<<<
 


But...Peter DIDN'T stand by Matt...nobody stood by Matt when he became the Kingpin...well, maybe it could be rationalized that the other heroes were somewhat okay with it at first, but then by the time of "one year later", they were fed up with him. 

I am not buying this miniseries, (I didn't then, and I'm not now), but going by what you've told me, I have no ideas on how to fix this continuity mess. That's actually worse than Bendis and "Secret War"...All in favor of hanging Kevin Smith by a noose?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Dec 2005 01:08 pm    
By garbonzo

I'm pretty sure Bendis and Smith have been looking at the same calendar. 

I just keep thinking about the line from Men In Black about the galactic standard week being 24 hours. I think Smith and Bendis have watched a bit too much TV.

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 06:59 pm    
By ShadZ

I don't see the problem here. I'm sure when the trade paperback comes out, issues 1-3 will be rewritten to bring them into line with 4-6 -- maked the trade paperback the cannonical version and the comcs some sort of disposiable first draft. Which is they way it already is now, but this will just be the most extreme case (up until now, changes in the trade have been along the lines of replacing omitted word balloons). 

If I'm wrong, and the trade leaves issues 1-3 untouched, then we have something to worry about...
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 10:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I don't see the problem here. I'm sure when the trade paperback comes out, issues 1-3 will be rewritten to bring them into line with 4-6 -- maked the trade paperback the cannonical version and the comcs some sort of disposiable first draft.  
<<<

Is there a precedent for this?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 10:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

No precedent. If Marvel published it, it's hardly a disposable first draft. 


watching: degrassi tng

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Posted: 13 Dec 2005 11:08 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Marvel's already published one of those "Marvel Must Haves" reprinting issues #1-3...anybody check that out to see if there are revisions to the text in that reprint? I somehow doubt that's the case, but it's worth checking out...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 08:08 am    
By jephyork
Director

Rewriting #1-3 would imply that someone at Marvel CARES. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 09:32 pm    
By Col_Fury

I flipped through the 'Marvel Must Haves' of 1-3 at the store today, and the dialogue has been left as it was originally: "Considering I'm not eight hundred pounds, blind, and dead" in reference to Wilson Fisk. 

Is it possible that Garrison Klum forgot that Kingpin got better? Or didn't hear about it? Or was just making a glib comment to a widely heard about period of the Kingpin's life? Any would work for me. 

I'm not seeing any mentions of where Peter lives in the first three issues, so it doesn't look like we'll have to rationalize Avengers Tower vs. his apartment. 

Yeah, Peter is flirting with Felicia, but it's mostly her flirting with him, and he's just going along with it. Her kissing him and his not exactly fighting it sticks out, though. Yeah, she's an ex-girlfriend of his, but he's a married man, which she points out, and she mentions that they're happy,(so does that mean they're not separated at this point, or that she just doesn't know about it?) and that she wouldn't make any moves on him, which she does by kissing him later in the very same issue. Felicia's comment makes me think that they're not separated, so that's good for us. 

The biggest thing that sticks out(besides that smooch) is Felicia shooting Spider-Man's web shooters. We don't see mechanical shooters, but she says "Let's see if I can remember how these work.", then shoots them at him, while they're on his wrists, under his costume. He then says "This stuff isn't cheap, y'know..." meaning the chemicals to make the web fluid. He was kind of groggy, so maybe it was an old joke that he recycled? Forgetting that his shooters are organic now? But then why would she be trying to shoot mechanical shooters that aren't there? If this is the biggest hurdle,(besides that kiss) I'm happy enough chalking it up to story-telling shorthand and ignoring it. 

So if issue 4 has dragged us more or less into the 'current day' of now instead of three years ago, I still think it could work.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 09:39 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Wait, why does this series have to occur post-organic shooters? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 10:04 pm    
By Col_Fury

In issue 4 of Spider-Man/Black Cat, Matt makes the comment to Peter "You know what my life's been like for the past year? Everyone in the city thinks I'm Daredevil!" Then later in the issue he is wearing his Daredevil suit. This would place this story more or less in the current day, after Matt declared himself Kingpin and didn't wear his suit for 'a long time.' 

Spider-Man got organic web shooters around Disassembled, and I'm pretty sure that Daredevil's main book has caught up to and moved past that. I can't think of any examples at the moment, though. 

So if this is taking place after Matt starts wearing his suit again, and after Disassembled, then it's also after Spider-Man got his organic web shooters.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 10:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yep, after a long brouhaha that ended with an e-mail from Tom Brevoort, the arc where Spidey got his organic shooters occurs shortly after Disassembled. 

And haven't we seen enough stories set in the one-year "DD doesn't wear his costume" gap where DD *is* wearing his costume -- several of these stories from Bendis himself -- that we kind of have to throw that notion out the window? I'd just as soon believe that DD *rarely* -- but not necessarily "never" -- wore his costume during that period. 

The description of the web-shooters scene posted here leaves me with no doubt that Spidey still has his mechanical shooters in this series ... and given a choice between the two references -- Spidey's shooters or DD's costume -- I'd pick Spidey's shooters. And if that means that this series has to be placed into DD's one-year gap, so be it ... the notion that he NEVER put his costume on during that year has been pretty much invalidated already anyway. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 10:51 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
And haven't we seen enough stories set in the one-year "DD doesn't wear his costume" gap where DD *is* wearing his costume -- several of these stories from Bendis himself -- that we kind of have to throw that notion out the window? I'd just as soon believe that DD *rarely* -- but not necessarily "never" -- wore his costume during that period. 
<<<


Well, we're trying to make it so that Daredevil didn't wear his costume at all between the "six weeks" period mentioned in DD2 56, and the scenes in DD2 59 and 60. But it feels at times like it's a loosing battle. "DD: Father" is probably going to end up in the one year gap, unless the storyline explains itself a bit better in the last two issues that are coming out soon... 

But on the other hand, all of the flashbacks showing Matt in costume in DD2 71-75 we were able to rationalize as post DD2 59. "DD vs. Punisher" more than likely is post DD2 59. 


Quote: 
>>>
Matt makes the comment to Peter "You know what my life's been like for the past year? Everyone in the city thinks I'm Daredevil!" Then later in the issue he is wearing his Daredevil suit. This would place this story more or less in the current day, after Matt declared himself Kingpin and didn't wear his suit for 'a long time.'  
<<<

Well, there was a period of several months before DD2 50, (when Matt declared himself the Kingpin) wherein the press knew about Matt's secret identity. Basically, you have all of DD2 31 onwards to DD2 50 for the press to know about Matt being Daredevil, before the "one year" gap comes into play. Now I don't think that's a whole year, but maybe Matt's comments of "what my life's been like for the past year" could mean this period. 

Maybe we can put "Evil that Men Do" in the "six week" period that was the start of the "one year" gap? That would explain why Peter is saying "I stood by you when you declared yourself the Kingpin"...because the other heroes aren't upset with Matt's actions yet. Of course, that does mean that the person saying that line about the Kingpin being blind and dead is mistaken...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 11:09 pm    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
When were the original "Evil that Men Do" issues published? 
<<<

August, September, & October 2002. 1, 2, & 3 respectively. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Bendis took over with DD2 26 in the Fall of 2001...could those specific issues, (wherein the Kingpin was put in a coma and thought to be dead) be what Kevin Smith is referring to?  
<<<

Yeah, that's what he was referring to in issue 2. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Kingpin didn't truly return until DD2 46-50...maybe we can push "Evil that Men Do" as far back as the "Trial of the White Tiger" period, DD2 38-40? 
<<<

Originally, sure. But now we have the reference in issue 4 about Matt having declared himself the Kingpin. We're now at the point of 'which reference do we ignore/rationalize'? In case anyone's interested: 

Peter: "I stood by you when you went nuts and declared yourself the new Kingpin." 
Matt: "I'm never gonna live that down, am I?" 
Peter: "Probably not." 

It sounds like Matt declared himself Kingpin a while ago, and is tired of hearing about it. 

So do we ignore 'Kingpin's dead' or 'Matt declared himself Kingpin'? I don't think we'll know for sure until issues 5 & 6 come out, but my guess is that they'll make some more 'current day 2005' references. 


-edit- 
Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Maybe we can put "Evil that Men Do" in the "six week" period that was the start of the "one year" gap? That would explain why Peter is saying "I stood by you when you declared yourself the Kingpin"...because the other heroes aren't upset with Matt's actions yet. Of course, that does mean that the person saying that line about the Kingpin being blind and dead is mistaken... 
<<<

Looks like I posted too soon. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 14 Dec 2005 11:19 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 11:13 pm    
By jephyork
Director

ReLoad-costume Nightcrawler is certainly one. 

Okay, so you're saying that after DD2 #59, Matt can be back in costume. Right? 

I'm fairly unclear on the whole DD timeline at the moment, but when does "Disassembled" occur in relation to DD's book? I'm SURE there's a spot post-DD2 #59 but pre-PPSSM2 #15 that we can slide this series into ... right? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 11:15 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Col. Fury, I just got done editing my post, upon realizing that most of my questions were answered in Paul B.'s first post above.  

And it appears you just shot down my new theory, (edited into my post above) that this is during the "six week" period. Unless you can rationalize Matt and Peter's dialogue to have occured during the "six week" period...(but you're right, it does sound like Matt's being the Kingpin is a thing of the past, not something that is a present day situation for them). 


Arrrggghhh! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 11:23 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Okay, so you're saying that after DD2 #59, Matt can be back in costume. Right? 

I'm fairly unclear on the whole DD timeline at the moment, but when does "Disassembled" occur in relation to DD's book? I'm SURE there's a spot post-DD2 #59 but pre-PPSSM2 #15 that we can slide this series into ... right? 
<<<

You know, I'm not certain where Paul has all of the "one year" mess on his calender as of now...he at one point had DD2 50 in October or November, a year before the "October" that he has Disassembled in, (unless I'm crazy)...I think you may be right, Jeph, that we could slip "Evil that Men Do" into a spot post-DD2 59 and pre-PPSSM2 #15.... 

Still, that reference to Kingpin being blind and dead isn't lining up at all...I guess we'll just have to chalk it up to the guy speaking that line having memory problems...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 11:31 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yep, that reference has got to go. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 11:33 pm    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
You know, I'm not certain where Paul has all of the "one year" mess on his calender as of now...he at one point had DD2 50 in October or November, a year before the "October" that he has Disassembled in, (unless I'm crazy)...I think you may be right, Jeph, that we could slip "Evil that Men Do" into a spot post-DD2 59 and pre-PPSSM2 #15....  
<<<

Hopefully Mr. Smith doesn't mention organic web shooter in issues 5 or 6... 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Still, that reference to Kingpin being blind and dead isn't lining up at all...I guess we'll just have to chalk it up to the guy speaking that line having memory problems... 
<<<

Whenever this ends up happening, I think we'll have to. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Col. Fury, I just got done editing my post, 
<<<

The same thing happened to me. Great minds and all that, right?  

-edit- 
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Yep, that reference has got to go. 
<<<

See? It happened again! 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 11:52 pm    
By Col_Fury

I'm just doing a new post to avoid more confusion, even though I should have checked this before making my last post... 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
You know, I'm not certain where Paul has all of the "one year" mess on his calender as of now...he at one point had DD2 50 in October or November, a year before the "October" that he has Disassembled in, (unless I'm crazy)...I think you may be right, Jeph, that we could slip "Evil that Men Do" into a spot post-DD2 59 and pre-PPSSM2 #15.... 
<<<

I just took a look at the Calendar, and Paul has DD 50 on November 2 of year 21, which is roughly a year before Disassembled. Disassembled is not on the Calendar yet, but here's what he had to say in response to my analysis of District X 7-12: 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I have Disassembled in late September, XU2 2 in mid-October (full moon), DX 1-6 at the end of October/beginning of November, UX 450-451 in mid-November, and DX 7-12 right after that (next full moon). 
<<<

So if Disassembled in is late September, and Matt puts his Daredevil suit back on in November, then "the Evil that Men Do" should be shortly after that in the current theory: Post-Disassembled, post-Daredevil 59, & pre-PPSSM 15... 

Man, I hope this works.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 12:03 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I'm just doing a new post to avoid more confusion, even though I should have checked this before making my last post... 
<<<

It's you and Jeph's fault for all this confusion: This wouldn't happen if you weren't online at the same time as me!  

Quote: 
>>>
I just took a look at the Calendar, and Paul has DD 50 on November 2 of year 21, which is roughly a year before Disassembled. Disassembled is not on the Calendar yet, but here's what he had to say in response to my analysis of District X 7-12: 
Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I have Disassembled in late September, XU2 2 in mid-October (full moon), DX 1-6 at the end of October/beginning of November, UX 450-451 in mid-November, and DX 7-12 right after that (next full moon). 
<<<

So if Disassembled in is late September, and Matt puts his Daredevil suit back on in November, then "the Evil that Men Do" should be shortly after that in the current theory: Post-Disassembled, post-Daredevil 59, & pre-PPSSM 15... 
<<<
 


Yes, but here's what you don't know: Paul, (last I checked) was taking those "one year later" references in Daredevil with a grain of salt. He was thinking of having DD2 56-60 occur earlier in the summer, last I checked. Strangely enough, he's dead set on making sure that the "one year later" references in Secret War match up exactly. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 12:14 am    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Paul, (last I checked) was taking those "one year later" references in Daredevil with a grain of salt. He was thinking of having DD2 56-60 occur earlier in the summer, last I checked. 
<<<

Ah, that would open up more time for 'the Evil that Men Do' to happen. Also, now that I think of it, wasn't the Black Cat in MK: S-M 1-12? Those issues also occur before PPSSM 15, and Mary Jane & Felicia have a bited conversation if I remember correctly. I wonder how that lines up...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 06:56 am    
By Somebody

Can I just ask - is there any evidence Spidey isn't still wearing his classic web-shooters as backups if nothing else? (hell, I know there was one vague reference in his Thunderbolts guest-app, but have they even been explicitly mentioned since the arc in question?) 

After all, we know Cap kept his photon shield generator around after he got his classic shield back.

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 04:02 am    
By Col_Fury

In issue 5, Nightcrawler mentions that he's only met two other teleporters of his ability level. In Uncanny 428-434, he met an entire race of teleporters of his ability level. However, Kurt is wearing his current uniform in 'the Evil that Men Do', so this can't take place before Uncanny 428-434, because he was still wearing his leather outfit in that story, and he didn't get his current uniform until after Uncanny 443. 

Do we chalk this up to Mr. Smith not doing his homework, Kurt being embarrassed about his heritage, or both?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 08:54 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Do we chalk this up to Mr. Smith not doing his homework, Kurt being embarrassed about his heritage, or both? 
<<<

Take your pick...or consign this mini-series to non-canonical status, because given all the problems it's creating, that may be where it belongs.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 09:30 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
In issue 5, Nightcrawler mentions that he's only met two other teleporters of his ability level. In Uncanny 428-434, he met an entire race of teleporters of his ability level. However, Kurt is wearing his current uniform in 'the Evil that Men Do', so this can't take place before Uncanny 428-434, because he was still wearing his leather outfit in that story, and he didn't get his current uniform until after Uncanny 443. 

Do we chalk this up to Mr. Smith not doing his homework, Kurt being embarrassed about his heritage, or both? 
<<<

I don't recall anyone from the Draco having teleportation abilities, though I have the niggling feeling that Azazel may have. I certainly don't recall an entire army of teleporters, however.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 03:11 am    
By Col_Fury

From the recap page of Uncanny 432: 
Quote: 
>>>
...the X-Men witness Nightcrawler - and a contingent of other teleporters strangely similar to him - engaging in a chilling, seemingly demonic ritual... 
<<<

But you're right, we don't really see a lot of them teleporting around all over the place. Weird.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 11:46 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
consign this mini-series to non-canonical status, because given all the problems it's creating, that may be where it belongs. 
<<<

You know, I *really* have a problem with the "this series causes problems, let's declare it non-canon" attitude. 

So far I've noted ONE problem -- #1-3 makes reference to the status quo of a few years back, #4-6 make reference to the current status quo. And the simple solution seems to be, ignore the earlier references. 

What other "problems" has this series caused? Seriously. What overarcing, compelling reason do we have to toss it in the non-canon bin? 

-Jeph! 

(as for Kurt meeting "an entire race of teleporters" -- they were all his half-siblings, remember? So perhaps he means that, outside of his immediate family, he's only met two teleporters of his ability level.)

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 11:59 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So far I've noted ONE problem -- #1-3 makes reference to the status quo of a few years back, #4-6 make reference to the current status quo. And the simple solution seems to be, ignore the earlier references.  
<<<

That seems to be somewhat too simple of a solution...if that's the case, why not just ignore the pesky flashbacks in Hulk: Destruction and declare it canon? 

Issues #1-3 are written to fit where the Marvel universe was 3 years ago. Issues #4-6 were written to fit where the Marvel universe is today. Yet only a day or two passes between issues 3 and 4, (if I'm understanding Paul right). To just ignore one set of references seems harmful to the purpose of the MCP.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 12:34 pm    
By jephyork
Director

We're not talking about "pesky flashbacks", though -- those are substantial. We're talking about a throwaway line by some minor character. Isn't it only ONE line, about the Kingpin being "blind and dead"? 

We know WHY the series makes reference to two different periods of Marvel history -- that's when it was written. I consider it more of a meta problem than a story problem -- akin in my mind to Emma Frost using a cellphone and laptop in her series, even though it was set "ten years ago". 

Since you don't want to "ignore" the references, how about "rationalize"? Maybe the guy who said it has been out of the country for years and is really out of touch. Maybe he was hit in the head recently. 

Or, rule the references "topical". I don't know that we've ever ruled a reference to the MU status quo as topical before, but it's certainly doable. 

However you choose to arrive at the solution, it seems to me that the solution is obvious: there are more references to the modern period than there are to the 3-years-ago period, so go with the preponderance of evidence and place the series currently. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 17

Posted: 15 Nov 2005 01:22 am    Post subject: Taskmaster entry error
By DragynWulf

I mentioned it awhile back, but it hasn't been corrected. So I thought I would remind MCP. 

In the Taskmaster entry you incorrectly have TASK 4-FB and DPOOL3 35-FB listed before A 196-FB. 

A 196-FB should go first as it mentions the first time that he found out his ability. As shown and mentioned it is when he is setting in front of a Tv doing the rope tricks. 

TASK 4-FB should be second as it mentions his age and states that he "was still discovering the boundaries of my talent". 

A 196-FB should be next as it shows him in high school as a football player. It is the part that he discusses going pro as a football player or a superhero, but deciding to go the route of a villain instead. 

DPOOL3 35-FB shows him as an adult and in his second costume. He altered his first costume to fit into the Frightful Four team costumes. This should be listed sometime after his first appearance. And definatly not before a flashback showing him as a kid growing up.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 04:43 pm    
By DragynWulf

Is nothing going to be corrected about this entry error?
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 04:58 pm    
By Somebody

Patient, ain't ya..

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Posted: 01 Jan 2006 12:55 pm   
By DragynWulf

Seeing how I have previously mentioned it over a year ago (I previously mentioned it when I joined here and that was why I joined here) and found that the error wasn't corrected back then when numerous others have been done so since then. Then mentioned it again last month only to see it still not corrected while other corrections have been made and additions done to the website. So I bumped it in order to bring it to the attention of Admin at the Chronology Project. So yeah I am patient. 

But no, you'd rather try to make a statement out of something that you assume you know something about in order to try and make me look impatient just so you could have something to complain about.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 10:14 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Okay, that's enough. 

You have a selective memory, DragynWulf. 

On July 28, 2004, you posted this: 
>>>
You have Deadpool v3 (should be v2 since the first limited series was titled DEADPOOL: THE CIRCLE CHASE while the 2nd and 3rd were titled DEADPOOL) #35 listed as Taskmaster's first appearance through a flashback. 

Due to the Hobgoblin being involved the flashback wouldn't take place until after DAREDEVIL #293. The issue does state that the Wizard is looking for a new Frightful Four, but he doesn't say which colleagues have parted ways with him since there have been more than one version of the Frightful Four. Paste Pot Pete is mentioned, but only because Deadpool thinks that is who the Wizard is. 

You also don't have Taskmaster's appearances in TASKMASTER #1-4, DEADLINE #3, DEADPOOL v2 #67-69 listed. These would all take place prior to AGENT-X #1 and in that particular order. 

TASKMASTER #1 shows a flashback that should be listed either before or after AVENGERS v1 #196 depending on how you want to look at it. My guess would be that it is before since it only shows him as a little boy while his appearance in AVENGERS v1 #196 shows him as a little boy and young adult. 

Also the link you have is an old link. Would it be possible to update it to taskmastersite.com instead of the Geocities site that is no longer there. 
<<<


Two hours later, I replied: 
>>>
Your premise is unclear. I'm not disputing you, but it's just hard to follow your reasoning. When you say, "Due to the Hobgoblin being involved the flashback wouldn't take place until after DAREDEVIL #293," I'd ask you to draw a clearer line from point a to point b than that. Why does the "Hobgoblin being involved" require that the flashback take place after DD 293? 

Oh, and don't get hung up on the Key Codes. DPOOL3 is just what we've elected to call the ongoing third Deadpool series. We could have just as easily used the code WDV4YF for Deadpool.  
<<<


You never responded. So I find it odd that you would complain that we're ignoring your corrections. 


watching: alabama vs texas tech

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 11:18 am    
By DragynWulf

Administrator wrote: 
Okay, that's enough. 

You have a selective memory, DragynWulf. 


I don't have a selective memory, I just didn't mention everything discussed last time because I already knew that you were not going to change the Frightful Four appearance listing. 

Also prior to posting this message I did a search for "Taskmaster" in order to try to find the previous message I posted and was not able to find it or any messages I previously posted. When I use the Memberlist and find my handle it says "Sorry, but that user does not exist.". 

This is the part that I made the post concerning: 
"TASKMASTER #1 shows a flashback that should be listed either before or after AVENGERS v1 #196 depending on how you want to look at it. My guess would be that it is before since it only shows him as a little boy while his appearance in AVENGERS v1 #196 shows him as a little boy and young adult. " 

I pointed out the samething back then and it was not corrected.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 12:41 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
I don't have a selective memory, I just didn't mention everything discussed last time because I already knew that you were not going to change the Frightful Four appearance listing. 
<<<

I take umbrage at this. I would have changed it months ago, if you'd bothered to respond to my polite request, with a valid reason to change it. 



Quote: 
>>>
This is the part that I made the post concerning: 
"TASKMASTER #1 shows a flashback that should be listed either before or after AVENGERS v1 #196 depending on how you want to look at it. My guess would be that it is before since it only shows him as a little boy while his appearance in AVENGERS v1 #196 shows him as a little boy and young adult. " 

I pointed out the samething back then and it was not corrected. 
<<<

I understand, but you miss my point, which is that it's ironic for you to complain that your post has been ignored, when in fact, it was not ignored, I replied to it, and you in fact, ignored my reply. 

I took no offense at that, and moved on, but I'll respond if you're going to criticize me or the Project for just ignoring you. 


watching: alabama vs texas tech

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 01:31 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I find it slightly remarkable that somebody who didn't bother responding to the request for clarification at the time can even remember making the post a year down the line...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 10:46 am    
By DragynWulf

As I pointed out previously. I joined in order to make that post. Looking at when I joined it states "Joined: 04 Jul 2004" therefore I made the post "Joined: 04 Jul 2004". There is nothing remarkable about it as all it takes is putting two and two together. 

And I from what I remember I was told (by Jeff York I beleive) that it wasn't going to be changed because it didn't mesh with the other character appearances. So what is the point of coming back to the board to look and see if there was any further replies concerning the Frightful Four matter.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 10:57 am    
By DragynWulf

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
I don't have a selective memory, I just didn't mention everything discussed last time because I already knew that you were not going to change the Frightful Four appearance listing. 
<<<

I take umbrage at this. I would have changed it months ago, if you'd bothered to respond to my polite request, with a valid reason to change it.  
<<<

As I mentioned already. I was told that it wouldn't be changed. Why bother discussing that particular part of it if I was told there was nothing going to be done about it. 


Quote: 
>>>
This is the part that I made the post concerning: 
"TASKMASTER #1 shows a flashback that should be listed either before or after AVENGERS v1 #196 depending on how you want to look at it. My guess would be that it is before since it only shows him as a little boy while his appearance in AVENGERS v1 #196 shows him as a little boy and young adult. " 

I pointed out the samething back then and it was not corrected. 
<<<

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I understand, but you miss my point, which is that it's ironic for you to complain that your post has been ignored, when in fact, it was not ignored, I replied to it, and you in fact, ignored my reply.  
<<<

What more really needed to be said? You list an appearance of him being an adult, then list an appearance with him as a child, then list him as an adult again. That is not in chronological order. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I took no offense at that, and moved on, but I'll respond if you're going to criticize me or the Project for just ignoring you.  
<<<

It hasn't been changed in over a year when I made the original post that explained what you incorrectly listed. How is that not ignoring?
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 12:07 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
And I from what I remember I was told (by Jeff York I beleive) that it wasn't going to be changed because it didn't mesh with the other character appearances. So what is the point of coming back to the board to look and see if there was any further replies concerning the Frightful Four matter. 
<<<

So if you were told why your correction didn't work at the time, what are you complaining about?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 01:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
And I from what I remember I was told (by Jeff York I beleive) that it wasn't going to be changed because it didn't mesh with the other character appearances. 
<<<

Not in that thread, he didn't. I've quoted the entire thread. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 03:15 pm    
By DragynWulf

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
And I from what I remember I was told (by Jeff York I beleive) that it wasn't going to be changed because it didn't mesh with the other character appearances. So what is the point of coming back to the board to look and see if there was any further replies concerning the Frightful Four matter. 
<<<

So if you were told why your correction didn't work at the time, what are you complaining about? 
<<<

You mean other than the fact that it is 100% and OBVIOUSLY incorrect? I thought the point of the Marvel Chronology Project is to place the order of events in the CORRECT order. Having something showing a character as a child, then as an adult, then as a child, then as an adult is not the correct chronological order. 

I mentioned that it should have gone elsewhere and that is where I was told "it doesn't work" and only because of events that took place in another comic.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 03:23 pm    
By DragynWulf

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
And I from what I remember I was told (by Jeff York I beleive) that it wasn't going to be changed because it didn't mesh with the other character appearances. 
<<<

Not in that thread, he didn't. I've quoted the entire thread. 
<<<

How would one be able to search for a thread like this because I talked with Jeff York concerning the issue and this is where I was told it would not be changed.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 12:02 pm    
By jephyork
Director

DragynWulf, If you're looking for old posts, you should check the archive. That's where we keep everything past a certain cutoff date. 

By the way, I've edited your previous post to keep it on-topic. You're welcome. 

Let's cut through your usual brand of detail-obsessed arguing here. When you respond to THIS comment by our Administrator... 

Quote: 
>>>
Your premise is unclear. I'm not disputing you, but it's just hard to follow your reasoning. When you say, "Due to the Hobgoblin being involved the flashback wouldn't take place until after DAREDEVIL #293," I'd ask you to draw a clearer line from point a to point b than that. Why does the "Hobgoblin being involved" require that the flashback take place after DD 293? 
<<<

...THEN we'll consider your suggestion for correction. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 12:20 pm    
By Somebody

And I was sure you'd point out his consistant misspelling of your name 

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 12:39 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I originally was going to -- I wrote a couple of drafts of that message, but finally decided to take the high road. Well, highER.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 03:19 pm    
By DragynWulf

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
DragynWulf, If you're looking for old posts, you should check the archive. That's where we keep everything past a certain cutoff date.  
<<<

And the archive is located where exactly? All that I can see is FAQ, Search (which I used and could not find anything as previously mentioned), Memberlist (which I used and could not find anything), Usergroups, Profile, Messages and Log In/Out. There is no "Archives" to be found. Not even when you are doing a search for something. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
By the way, I've edited your previous post to keep it on-topic. You're welcome.  
<<<

It was on-topic thank you very much. It concerned the issue at hand, which I used to show the topic being discussed. And I wasn't thanking you for doing it either. 

I will apologize for incorrectly spelling your name as "Jeff" instead of "Jeph" though. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Let's cut through your usual brand of detail-obsessed arguing here. When you respond to THIS comment by our Administrator... 
>>>
Quote: 
Your premise is unclear. I'm not disputing you, but it's just hard to follow your reasoning. When you say, "Due to the Hobgoblin being involved the flashback wouldn't take place until after DAREDEVIL #293," I'd ask you to draw a clearer line from point a to point b than that. Why does the "Hobgoblin being involved" require that the flashback take place after DD 293? 
<<<

...THEN we'll consider your suggestion for correction. 
<<<

So you won't correct the OBVIOUS mistake of listing Taskmaster's appearance where he is listed as being a child, then an adult, then a child, then an adult (TASK 4-FB, DPOOL3 35-FB, A 196-FB) JUST because of another correction I mentioned? 

I posted this to help your site correct obvious mistakes, but find that I have to argue the simple points of you listing Taskmaster as a child, then adult, then a child and then an adult when the entire point of this site is to "Chronologically" place appearances in order. Do you attack all corrections mentioned or just me?
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 05:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Just you, obviously. Because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate. 

Quote: 
>>>
And the archive is located where exactly? 
<<<

Hmm, goddamn good question, actually. It's here: http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/archive/ 

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I've edited your previous post to keep it on-topic. You're welcome. 
<<<

It was on-topic thank you very much. 
<<<

The bits where you talked about banning me from the message board that you moderate weren't. Doesn't that very board have a rule about "no airing of mod business on the boards themselves"? I figured I'd enforce the same rule over here that you banned me for over there. You're welcome. 


Quote: 
>>>
And I wasn't thanking you for doing it either. 
<<<

Didn't you just now, though? You thanked me very much. You're welcome!  


Quote: 
>>>
I will apologize for incorrectly spelling your name as "Jeff" instead of "Jeph" though. 
<<<

Thank you very much. 


Quote: 
>>>
So you won't correct the OBVIOUS mistake of listing Taskmaster's appearance where he is listed as being a child, then an adult, then a child, then an adult (TASK 4-FB, DPOOL3 35-FB, A 196-FB) JUST because of another correction I mentioned? 
<<<

Well, *I* personally don't make *any* actual corrections -- just suggestions, like everyone else. However, by "you" I assume you mean the Administrator -- and I can't speak with authority to his reasons for not making the change. 

However, I *assume* that, just like we don't analyze PART of an issue, the decision was made not to analyze PART of your correction. I assume that the Admin was waiting for you to reply to his request for clarification -- which you never did. 

Which you STILL haven't done, I might add, despite two requests in this very thread. 

Now, everyone reading this thread can tell that you and I have a little history, DragynWulf, so they'll believe me when I say that I know that you have a penchant for arguing the tiny little details and funky little tangents of any given argument, for attacking the motives of the other parties involved -- and completely sidestepping the big picture of the actual discussion. So I'm sure they'll forgive me if I seem like I'm a little harsher on you than I would be on anyone else that posts here, but I want to make sure you address the chronological issue, rather than the personal politics of the board and the site. 

Therefore, if you don't adequately address the following quote in your very next post in this thread -- the thread will be locked. And so will any other thread you start on this topic, until you address it. 

The Admin asked you for some clarification almost eighteen months ago, he asked you again on Monday, and I asked you again today. In your next post, you will provide it. 


Quote: 
>>>
Your premise is unclear. I'm not disputing you, but it's just hard to follow your reasoning. When you say, "Due to the Hobgoblin being involved the flashback wouldn't take place until after DAREDEVIL #293," I'd ask you to draw a clearer line from point a to point b than that. Why does the "Hobgoblin being involved" require that the flashback take place after DD 293? 
<<<

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 06:29 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Well, *I* personally don't make *any* actual corrections -- just suggestions, like everyone else. However, by "you" I assume you mean the Administrator -- and I can't speak with authority to his reasons for not making the change. 

However, I *assume* that, just like we don't analyze PART of an issue, the decision was made not to analyze PART of your correction. I assume that the Admin was waiting for you to reply to his request for clarification -- which you never did. 
<<<

That pretty well states it. I haven't seen anyone disputing DragynWulf's suggested movements of the early flashbacks, but all of that remains tangential today. 

I entered this current discussion when we--or more accurately, I--was accused of ignoring the posts of someone who had ignored my post, which I thought was hypocritical, and that's all I've been saying here. 


watching: situation room

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 08:52 pm    
By DragynWulf

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
And the archive is located where exactly? 
<<<

Hmm, goddamn good question, actually. It's here: http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/archive/ 
<<<

A sticky at the top of each forum with a link pointing to the archives (since it is not located in the message board system) would be helpful for others in the future. 

There also is no link to it on the Marvel Chronology Project website either and nothing mentioning it in the FAQ as well. So it is basically an unknown page. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I've edited your previous post to keep it on-topic. You're welcome. 
<<<

It was on-topic thank you very much. 
<<<

The bits where you talked about banning me from the message board that you moderate weren't. Doesn't that very board have a rule about "no airing of mod business on the boards themselves"? I figured I'd enforce the same rule over here that you banned me for over there. You're welcome.  
<<<

And yet it is okay for you to continue to discuss it, but when I do you edit my post, basically writing what you wanted me to say instead of what I actually said.  
And yet it is okay for Somebody to post off-topic remarks (twice) without it being editted or removed and you make comments ON those off-topic remarks.  
And once again, I didn't thank you for editing my post so don't try and put words in my mouth or even think that I am thanking you for it or edit my post and then act like I thanked you for it because I did not nor will I thank you for it. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
And I wasn't thanking you for doing it either. 
<<<

Didn't you just now, though? You thanked me very much. You're welcome!   
<<<

Once again I did not thank you. Nor will I thank you for editing my post. You want to be a smart____ and smug about things, but when someone calls you on it you edit their post saying it is off-topic, but allow others to do it. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
So you won't correct the OBVIOUS mistake of listing Taskmaster's appearance where he is listed as being a child, then an adult, then a child, then an adult (TASK 4-FB, DPOOL3 35-FB, A 196-FB) JUST because of another correction I mentioned? 
<<<

Well, *I* personally don't make *any* actual corrections -- just suggestions, like everyone else. However, by "you" I assume you mean the Administrator -- and I can't speak with authority to his reasons for not making the change.  
<<<

Then as the Director you should not make replies as such that you DO make corrections or have control over what is placed in the Marvel Chronology Project. 

And on that note, the post that was made by yourself where you said it will not be included is not in the archives. My guess it was deleted due to the comments you made about me being able to post here, but you were not allowed to post somewhere else. 
It was after you made your comment that it would not be included, I did not check back for further comments because you acted like you were the authority on the subject of what would and would not get included. Then the Administrator must have made his comments afterwards, which I did not know about or I would have replied then as I have now. So the only reason why it was ignored by me in the first place is due to your comments. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
However, I *assume* that, just like we don't analyze PART of an issue, the decision was made not to analyze PART of your correction. I assume that the Admin was waiting for you to reply to his request for clarification -- which you never did. 

Which you STILL haven't done, I might add, despite two requests in this very thread.  
<<<

Because of YOUR comments. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Now, everyone reading this thread can tell that you and I have a little history, DragynWulf, so they'll believe me when I say that I know that you have a penchant for arguing the tiny little details and funky little tangents of any given argument, for attacking the motives of the other parties involved -- and completely sidestepping the big picture of the actual discussion.  
<<<

I have not sidestepped the discussion. I pointed one thing out. You brought up another point and wanted to discuss THAT point. One that I didn't make comments on because of your comments that it would not be corrected and then you complain that I am not making comments on it.  


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So I'm sure they'll forgive me if I seem like I'm a little harsher on you than I would be on anyone else that posts here, but I want to make sure you address the chronological issue, rather than the personal politics of the board and the site. 
<<<

So because you called me a Nazi, posted comments to start problems and posting deleted messages elsewhere and then editing my comments here mentioning it in order to show I remember what I said in a previous post because the archives was no where to be found to prove so, you are going to be harsher on me here. That is really taking the "high road. Well, highER" road alright.  


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Therefore, if you don't adequately address the following quote in your very next post in this thread -- the thread will be locked. And so will any other thread you start on this topic, until you address it. 

The Admin asked you for some clarification almost eighteen months ago, he asked you again on Monday, and I asked you again today. In your next post, you will provide it. 
<<<

Telling someone what they will do when they are out to help this website is not the way to get help from people. Especially when the fault of a reply not being made is based on the comments that you made back then. 

I came here 18 months ago and provided information. YOU dismissed it. Why would I (or anyone else for that matter) continue to check back on something that was dismissed by someone acting as the authority. But you always are out to act high and mighty while being needlessly reckless and rude so it does not make you look bad. 

And once again, you over look the OTHER corrections I have mentioned because you are hung up on this one particular correction so you can look good. The flashback appearance of Taskmaster being shown as an adult in DEADPOOL #35 is as an ADULT. The flashback appearance of Taskmaster in TASKMASTER #4 and AVENGERS v1 #196 is of him as a child. 
-TASK 4-FB (child learning how to use his abilities) 
-DPOOL3 35-FB (adult member of Frightful Four) 
-A 196-FB (child sitting in front of TV where he learns his abilities for the first time) 

But you want to continue to make comments on how "I" have not mentioned something and yet you do the same. 


Quote: 
>>>
Your premise is unclear. I'm not disputing you, but it's just hard to follow your reasoning. When you say, "Due to the Hobgoblin being involved the flashback wouldn't take place until after DAREDEVIL #293," I'd ask you to draw a clearer line from point a to point b than that. Why does the "Hobgoblin being involved" require that the flashback take place after DD 293?  
<<<

-The Hobgoblin comment is due to the comments made about the Hobgoblin Decoys in the issue. The time frame I mentioned would place it about when the Hobgoblin was using decoys because of Ned Leds. 

-The mention of Paste Pot Pete does not mean that it should go chronologically where Paste Pot Pete would appear because Deadpool thinks Wizard is Paste Pot Pete, but Wizard corrects Deadpool by calling Paste Pot Pete "Trapster" instead. 

-The battle with Thing and Franklin Richards takes place at the Baxter Building. The Baxter Building was destroyed in FANTASTIC FOUR v1 #278, which was published in May 1985. 

-MARVEL TEAM-UP #146 was published in 1984 
-THING #26 was published in Aug 1985 
-DAREDEVIL v1 #293 was published in May 1991. 

Which would place the DEADPOOL #35 appearance in-between MARVEL TEAM-UP #146 and THING #26 instead of after DAREDEVIL v1 #293 as I previously mentioned. But defiantly not in between appearances of him being a child as you have listed.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 09:01 pm    
By DragynWulf

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I entered this current discussion when we--or more accurately, I--was accused of ignoring the posts of someone who had ignored my post, which I thought was hypocritical, and that's all I've been saying here. 
<<<

Well when you have someone acting as the authority of the matter saying a particular subject will not be corrected, one tends not to check back to see if someone else has made comments.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 09:40 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
-The Hobgoblin comment is due to the comments made about the Hobgoblin Decoys in the issue. The time frame I mentioned would place it about when the Hobgoblin was using decoys because of Ned Leds. 

-The mention of Paste Pot Pete does not mean that it should go chronologically where Paste Pot Pete would appear because Deadpool thinks Wizard is Paste Pot Pete, but Wizard corrects Deadpool by calling Paste Pot Pete "Trapster" instead. 

-The battle with Thing and Franklin Richards takes place at the Baxter Building. The Baxter Building was destroyed in FANTASTIC FOUR v1 #278, which was published in May 1985. 

-MARVEL TEAM-UP #146 was published in 1984 
-THING #26 was published in Aug 1985 
-DAREDEVIL v1 #293 was published in May 1991. 

Which would place the DEADPOOL #35 appearance in-between MARVEL TEAM-UP #146 and THING #26 instead of after DAREDEVIL v1 #293 as I previously mentioned. But defiantly not in between appearances of him being a child as you have listed. 
<<<

There! Thank you. That wasn't difficult. Now we have something to discuss and really debate. 


watching: 24

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 09:47 pm    
By DragynWulf

And you would have had it sooner if not for the comments made by your Director 18 months ago. Even without mentioning it, the first point of this thread was that you have an appearance listed of him as a child, then an adult, then a child and then an adult. Corrections still could have been made about thatand debate made about that as well. The statement was clear enough to be understood, but focus was changed to comment on DEADPOOL #35 made 18 months ago instead of the following: 

A 196-FB should go first as it mentions the first time that he found out his ability. As shown and mentioned it is when he is setting in front of a Tv doing the rope tricks. 

TASK 4-FB should be second as it mentions his age and states that he "was still discovering the boundaries of my talent". 

A 196-FB should be next as it shows him in high school as a football player. It is the part that he discusses going pro as a football player or a superhero, but deciding to go the route of a villain instead. 

DPOOL3 35-FB shows him as an adult and in his second costume. He altered his first costume to fit into the Frightful Four team costumes. This should be listed sometime after his first appearance. And definatly not before a flashback showing him as a kid growing up.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 10:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
And you would have had it sooner if not for the comments made by your Director 18 months ago. 
<<<

Yeah, you keep saying that, but the responses that my Director made to you on this forum, prior to this thread, were very restrained and respectful. Check it out; it's in the June, 2004 archive. 

And Jeph is very capable of speaking in his own defense, but I'll just mention that when Jeph said "You're welcome," and you correctly pointed out that you never thanked him, the way I interpreted it is that you should have thanked him, for not banning you at the MCP for doing the very thing that you banned him for doing, on some other forum. 


watching: 24

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jan 2006 12:36 am    
By DragynWulf

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
And you would have had it sooner if not for the comments made by your Director 18 months ago. 
<<<

Yeah, you keep saying that, but the responses that my Director made to you on this forum, prior to this thread, were very restrained and respectful. Check it out; it's in the June, 2004 archive. 
<<<

I checked. No comments towards myself from JephYork made concerning the banning he received. There is one about Taskmaster's appearance in SIREN. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
And Jeph is very capable of speaking in his own defense, but I'll just mention that when Jeph said "You're welcome," and you correctly pointed out that you never thanked him, the way I interpreted it is that you should have thanked him, for not banning you at the MCP for doing the very thing that you banned him for doing, on some other forum. 
<<< 


I don't recall calling him a Nazi, posting messages to start problems, posting deleted messages with comments like "Look before it gets deleted too" and posting same deleted messages on another board. Along with being needlessly reckless, obnoxious, rude with a short fuse. These are all the things he got banned for doing. Not just the one thing. That is all that was mentioned previous. I was polite enough to not mention everything he was banned for, but since you brought it up you now know.
_________________
-DragynWulf 
Owner/Webmaster of TaskmasterSite.com 
Moderator of the Taskmaster MBoard

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jan 2006 01:01 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
I checked. No comments towards myself from JephYork made concerning the banning he received. 
<<<

No disrespectful comments on this forum toward you from JephYork concerning ANYTHING, until you called him out in this thread. 


DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
There is one about Taskmaster's appearance in SIREN. 
<<<

Right. That's the one I was referring to. His only response to you in this forum was very respectful to you. 


DragynWulf wrote: 
>>>
I don't recall calling him a Nazi, posting messages to start problems, posting deleted messages with comments like "Look before it gets deleted too" and posting same deleted messages on another board. Along with being needlessly reckless, obnoxious, rude with a short fuse. These are all the things he got banned for doing. Not just the one thing. That is all that was mentioned previous. I was polite enough to not mention everything he was banned for, but since you brought it up you now know. 
<<<

What Jeph or any director says in any other outlet has nothing to do with his moderation of this forum, or being a Director for the Project. 

I stand behind Jeph. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 02:46 am    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks, Russ. 

I'm going to use my magical Mod powers to get the last word on a locked topic -- apologies in advance. 

I see that DragynWulf is blaming ME, and comments made by ME, as his rationale for never checking back to see if anyone had replied to his corrections post, eighteen long months ago. However, when challenged to FIND said comments, he came up empty. 

A lesser man might think, just for an instant, that he might be misremembering things, or that the comments in question might have been made on a different forum, or over e-mail or PM. But no, not the mighty DragynWulf. It's clear to him that the comments must have been DELETED, so as to prevent him from using them as evidence! 

For the record: I have no recollection of ever making such comments to DW. In ANY forum. Yes, we've exchanged hot words over on the T-Bolts board and in private e-mail -- but I honestly can't recall ever telling him anything like "your corrections here will not be included". I can be petty, but not that petty -- certainly not petty enough to leave the MCP intentionally incorrect just because I don't like a guy. 

Even if I HAD said that, I think most everyone around here knows that Directors don't actually HAVE the power to make, or veto, MCP corrections. So any threat on my part to keep DW's corrections out would have been hollow -- and, if made on the boards, easily noticed by the Admin, who makes it a point to read every post. Had I made such a comment, I have no doubt he'd have corrected me. 

So: 

- I don't recall making such comments. 
- the Admin doesn't recall noticing and correcting any such comments from me. 
- the Archive reflects no such comments made. 

Clearly there's been a conspiracy here. 

Or, DragynWulf is the sort of person who can't consider the notion that he might possibly be incorrect. 

Looking at his immensely long-winded posts, where he rebuts every single sentence one by one (even obviously farcical ones like "you're welcome"), and at the same time refuses to answer direct questions (like, "be clearer with your Hobgoblin reference" -- it took four requests and a threat of thread locking to get him to address this)... well, you be the judge. Not the most even-keeled guy, is he? 


And, since we're on the subject of what IS and IS NOT appropriate to discuss on these forums: 

One of DW's posts in this thread, later edited by me, brought up the fact that he had banned me from his T-Bolts message board. Brought it up out of nowhere, as a matter of fact. 

One of the rules on Alvaro's ComicBoards, where the T-Bolts board is located, is that you don't air mod business on the boards. That means no questioning of mod rules and no discussion of bannings, etc. Since DW used that rule to get me banned, I figured I'd enforce that same rule over here -- that this thread shouldn't contain discussion of my banning. 

Although DW's later comments would have you believe that I "re-wrote" his post, in fact I only made deletions. Nothing was *altered* -- merely excised. All that was removed was a sentence wherein he states that he banned me from the T-Bolts forum. Any text remaining is exactly as he wrote it. 

I mentioned in my follow-up post WHY i had edited his post, and told him that I was now enforcing a rule of "no airing Mod business". A rule he should be familiar with, and respectful of. 

Of course, he went on to break that rule in pretty much EVERY SINGLE post he made after that point -- going into greater and greater detail about the horrors I perpetrated on him and his T-Bolts community. 

Should I edit all those posts? Should I enforce the rule that I warned him I was going to enforce? Should I remove any mention of my banning? 

Nah -- if it was about anyone else, I'd do it. But it's about me, and I don't want to come off looking like someone who censors others solely to make myself look good. So I'll leave DW's remarks as they stand in the rest of his posts. 

However, if anyone's curious to know exactly WHAT mod business I aired on the T-Bolts board, or WHY i called him a Nazi (which was, by the way, in a *private e-mail*, not on the boards) -- I was banned because I questioned, then mocked, a new board rule that he created and was vigorously enforcing at the time: 

"If you put 'NT' (for No Text) in the subject line of your post, you are not allowed to write any text in the post." 

Wow, what a rule! Anyone who frequents Alvaro's boards knows that you can label your own posts "NT", whether or not they contain text -- and some people like to stick a short bit of text into NT messages, like "yeah" or "so there" or "ugh". They're little Easter Eggs for the folks that get follow-ups to their posts sent through e-mail, or to anyone who decides to reply to the NT post. They're harmless. But DW decided they were Bad Things, and began chastising anyone foolish enough to include text in a message labelled "NT". 

He went after a guy who put the phrase "You know you were thinking it" in an NT post. So I made fun of the rule. And DW for making it up. Hey, what would you do?  

Then, when he began deleting some of my more substantive posts, I reposted them on a semi-relevent thread on the X-Men Board, where he's not a moderator. 

Again -- what would you do? Well, okay, maybe not that.  

So I'm banned. I broke the rules, multiple times, and now I can't talk T-Bolts no more. 

And why is this relevant? Well, aside from me wanting to have the last word here  -- I thought it might be nice to compare and contrast DW's moderating style with mine. 

I break a rule, repeatedly -- I'm banned. DW breaks the same rule, repeatedly -- one locked thread (and I'm not even the guy who locked it). He's still welcome to offer any corrections or updates to the MCP. 

Mind you, I don't think he WILL, but at least he's got the option open to him. 


On this thread I've been accused of running DW off the boards 18 months ago by telling him that his corrections will be excluded, and I've been accused of deleting evidence of that. I've been blamed for his refusal to check his post for replies, even though there's a button marked "notify me" at the bottom of the posting field -- he didn't even have to COME here to be informed of replies. I've been accused of "re-writing" a post of his, to make him say "what I wanted him to say". I've had private mod business dragged out in public despite a warning not to pursue it -- and despite my inability to make corrections to the MCP, I've been personally accused of refusing to enter DW's other Taskmaster corrections "so I can look good". 

Is it any wonder I want the last word? 

DW -- you're one of the most aggravating examples of an Internet Comic Book Fan that I've EVER seen. You argue and argue and argue and yet you never LISTEN. If anyone makes a good point in reply to you, you ignore it and focus on something BEHIND that point -- the motivations of the poster, or your interpretation of events that happened years ago and why that colored the way you're saying what you're saying now. 

You seem to have an inability to stick to the topic at hand. You asked why your corrections weren't posted -- you were told that we needed clarification -- and instead of PROVIDING it, you went into a spiel about why you didn't give it in the first place. Well, we didn't ASK why you didn't provide it in the first place, DW -- we just asked FOR it. It took three requests and a threat of locking the thread for you to stop talking about WHY you thought things happened, and focus on providing us what we asked for in order to process your corrections. 

This sort of niggly, detail-obsessed, looking at the past through a prism stuff might fly on other boards -- but here we like to stick more to the topics raised, and discuss and debate chronological issues. 

You haven't been punished yet -- but the very next time you start in with your long-winded analyses of WHY everyone else has done you wrong -- I'll do everything in my power to see that you DO get banned. Your argumentative nature is disruptive and unwanted. 

Your chronological corrections, however, ARE wanted, and if that's what you provide on these forums from now on, there will be no problem. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 09:01 pm    Post subject: Mythos #1
By gregorynbaker

Spoilers for any one who hasn't read Mythos #1. 

While this seems to be a retelling of X-Men vol. 1 #1, there is not a lot of direct evidence that this is so. Jean is already a member of the team, and they seem to have been working together for some time. The battle with Magneto is in a totally different place, has a totally different outcome, and Xavier is present for the battle, where he was not in the original. While Xavier's comment that Magneto is a chance for them to test their powers in a live combat situation would seem like the the first mutant they fought, it is not necessarily the case. Later, Xavier says, "This is the work an old friend of mine, I'm afraid. A Mutant. Like Us. His name is Erik Lehnsherr. He prefers to call himself Magneto." This would indicate that Xavier is introducing Magneto to the X-Men. However, it could be written off as a) the first time that Xavier tells the X-Men Magneto's real name, and/or b) Xavier is still shaken by the sudden deaths of the people at the DNA Testing Facility. 

Of course, with a reference to 1997 as the past and allusions to the recent conflict in Iraq, this creates a bit of a headache to calendar builders. 

This issue was probably not written to be continuity, but it seems on the cusp. Is this a possible second Magneto battle between X-Men vol. 1 #1 and X-Men vol. 1 #2? What do you all think?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 09:51 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Standard disclaimer applies. 

gregorynbaker wrote: 
>>>
Spoilers for any one who hasn't read Mythos #1. 

Of course, with a reference to 1997 as the past and allusions to the recent conflict in Iraq, this creates a bit of a headache to calendar builders.  
<<<

I would suspect that Paul could write those off as topical references. 


gregorynbaker wrote: 
>>>
This issue was probably not written to be continuity, but it seems on the cusp. Is this a possible second Magneto battle between X-Men vol. 1 #1 and X-Men vol. 1 #2? What do you all think? 
<<<

As a general rule of thumb, stories published by Marvel are canon unless Marvel says they aren't, or they can't be. We do have an obligation to make the effort to include stories, if at all possible. Others may point out flaws in your theory, but based purely on what you've told us here, I don't see why it can't work. 


watching: 24

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 10:06 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Russ wrote: 
>>>
I would suspect that Paul could write those off as topical references.  
<<<

That would be correct. 


Gregory, might we trouble you for a full analysis of this issue on the analysis forum? I understand this series consists of a series of one-shots, so there's no story arc completion to wait for.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 10:33 pm    
By Jason Doty

As much as I also wanted this to be in continuity, there is alot to "write-off." 

Specifically, the part were Magneto questions Xavier sending children against him, as if he did not fight them before. 

It's a shame that Marvel cannot add too rather than go against continuity with stories as good as this and Children of the Atom.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 11:39 pm    
By Somebody

I'll look for the link later, but Jenkins has said the Mythos one-shots are non-canon. 

They're intended for the general public (stop laughing) to get a taster of the origin merging the various origins from different media (616-canon, movies, etc)

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jan 2006 12:47 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote: 
I'll look for the link later, but Jenkins has said the Mythos one-shots are non-canon. 


Well, there you go. 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jan 2006 08:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Strictly speaking, what Jenkins actually said was that it wasn't certain whether MYTHOS was canon. The stated purpose of the book is to retell the established origins of the characters while incorporating elements from the movie versions, although the comics version remains predominant. However, it's pretty clear from Jenkins' comments that there is intentional retconning involved in this series - for example, Spider-Man will have organic webs from the start, as in the film - and in the absence of a clear statement that it IS canon, the obvious conclusion is that it isn't.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jan 2006 04:02 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Although this book could slot quite happily between X-Men #1 and #2, aside from some awkward bits of dialogue, it's really not meant to. It's a replacement for X-Men #1, if you so wish to have one.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 07 Jan 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject: CA 144
By Dhall

While all of CA 144 does indeed occur, a large portion of it is told in flashback in Cap's dream. So there are some listings that should reaf CA 144-FB, instead of CA 144. 

Captain America 
IM 44 
CA 144 <- S/b CA 144-FB 
A 98 
A 99 
A 100 
CA 144 <-This is correct, and needs no change. 
CA 145 

Falcon 
CA 143 
CA:SL2 8 
CA:SL2 9 
CA 144 <- Should be CA 144-FB 
CA 145 

Redwing 
CA:SL2 8 
CA:SL2 9 
CA 144 <-Should be CA 144-FB 
CA 145 

TAYLOR, LEILA 
CA:SL2 8 
CA 144 <-s/b CA 144-FB 
CA 149 

All other listings are correct. 

President Nixon appears in this issue (and in several other comics around this time period) So far I have found: 

Nixon, Richard 
H2 139 
**A 92-BTS 
**AT 1/2 
**SUB-M 44-BTS 
**CA 144 
**SUB-M 47-BTS 
**T 187 
H2 147 
FF 123 
H2 152 
**A 101-BTS 
H2 174

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 07 Jan 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: SGTF 100
By Dhall

SGTF 100 is listed both before and after CA 145-148 in the MCP. I suspect that the latter is correct. If not, I'll revise this post when I've read the relevant issues. 

KOENIG, ERIC 
SGTF 36-FB 
SGTF 36 
M/CP 77/3 
M/CP 78/2 
M/CP 79/2 
FURY 1-FB-BTS 
SGTF 100 <- Shouldn't this be after CA 145-146? 
CA 145 
CA 146 

Cap America 
CA 144 
CA 145 
CA 146 
CA 147 
CA 148 
CA 185-FB 
SGTF 100

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:42 pm    Post subject: CA 145-148
By Dhall

There are some instances in CA 145-148, where some characters are listed as BTS, who shouldn't be, and some listed who should have a BTS designation. 


Kingpin 
ASM 85 
CA 147-FB 
CA 145-BTS 
CA 146-BTS <--SHould not be BTS, as we see his hands, so this is an actual appearance. 
CA 147 
CA 148 

SCHEMER/RICHARD FISK 
ASM 85 
CA 147-FB 
CA 145-BTS <--Not BTS, he is the Supreme Hydra, and is in this issue. 
CA 146-BTS<--Not BTS, he is the Supreme Hydra, and is in this issue. 
CA 147 
CA 148 

Red Skull 
CA 143 
CA 145 <--Should be listed as CA 145-BTS 
CA 146-BTS 
CA 147-BTS <--Not BTS, we hear his projected voice at the end of this issue, making this an actual appearance. 
CA 148 

And Additionaly some FB appearances that should be listed. 

Fisk, Vanessa 
ASM 85 
**CA 147-FB 
CA 147 
ASM 164 

Falcon 
CA 145 
CA 146 
**CA 147-FB 
CA 147 

Fury, Nick 
CA 145 
CA 146 
**CA 147-FB 
CA 147 
CA 148 
H2 148 
CA 148 

This FB, shows Falcon changing his mind, and accepting Fury's assignment to help Cap.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:45 pm    Post subject: A 98, 100 additions
By Dhall

Thor 
A 97 
A 98 
**A 98-FB 
A 98 
A 99 

A98-Fb: Thor attempts to return to Asgard, but is repulsed by a mysterious barrier. 

Enchantress 
A 84 
H2 142 
**A 100-FB 
A 100 
DEF 4

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:45 pm    Post subject: MCKENZIE, LEONARD
By Dhall

MCKENZIE, LEONARD 
FF@ 1-FB 
FF:SE-FB 
FF@ 1-FB 
FF:SE-FB 
FF@ 1-FB 
**SUB-M 44-FB 
SUB-M 43 
SUB-M 44 
SUB-M 45 
SUB-M 46

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:44 pm    Post subject: Gilbert, Simon
By Dhall

Gilbert, Simon (new listing) 
IM 45 
A 99-FB-BTS (on phone to Kevin OBrien) 
IM 46 
IM 47

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 02:34 am    
By Arthur
Director

and to round it out 

Gilbert, Simon (new listing) 

IM 48-FB (7:4  8:2) Simon Gilbert disciplining his young son, Gary (FIREBRAND) 7:4/1 
IM 59-FB-FB (11:2  11:3) Simon Gilberts behavior pushes both his children to leave home 
IM 45 
A 99-FB-BTS (on phone to Kevin OBrien) 
IM 46 
IM 47 
IM 48 

(and for the completist - IM 59-BTS (Simon Gilbert's Gravesite) 

Rechecking the above IM 59-FB-FB brought to light the fact that both FIREBRAND's and ROXANNE GILBERT's listing only showed it as a -FB. Kind of embarrassing since it was I that posted the original note to insert those listings! 

The flashback starts with page 7, "back a few months" and catches up to the present in 12:4. Within that time span, Gary explains how he escaped custody and Roxanne reflects on how they each left home. So... 

GILBERT, ROXANNE 

*IM 59-FB should be IM 59-FB-FB (11:2 - 11:3) 
IM 59 

FIREBRAND/GARY GILBERT 

*IM 48-FB splitting current entry (7:4/1 - 7:4/2) as a young boy, being disciplined by his father; peaceful protestor in teen years 
*IM 59-FB (11:2 - 11:3) should be IM 59-FB-FB (11:2 - 11:3); Gary thrown out of the house for his radical rhetoric 
*IM 48-FB (7:4/3 - 8:2) studies physics and harnesses thermal energy 
{IM 27} 
IM 48-FB (8:5) improves power 
IM 48 
*IM 59-FB (10:2 - 10:6) should be IM 59-FB-FB (10:5 - 10:6) (10:2 - 10:4 is a retelling of IM 48)

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Sub-M 47-51 additions & corrections
By Dhall

The most notable addition here is SUB-M 51-FB, which works into Namorita's youth, Namora's death, and Llyra and Byrrah's chronology) 

NAMORITA/NITA PRENTISS [ATLANTEAN] 
N 20-FB-BTS (BTS as a fetus) 
ORDER 6-FB <- Remove: Namorita is not in this flashback. (It has Namora, and a 14 year old Namor.) 
NW 44-FB (as a baby, with her parents) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (After her fathers death, Namorita is brought to Lemuria by her mother.) 
NW 44-FB (as a teenager) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (As a teenager, Namorita watches her mother and Llyra fight) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Namorita attends her mothers funeral) 

NW@ 1/6-FB (Remove, this is a flashback to material previously covered in SUB 51-FB) 

**SUB-M 51-FB (Namorita listens, while Llyra and Byrrah make a pact) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Llyra and Byrrah take Namorita to the Antartic) 
**Sub-M 51-FB (Llyra tells Namorita that she must find Namor, and Namorita leaves the Antartic to begin the search) 
{SUB-M 50} 
SUB-M 51 

LLYRA/LLYRA MORRIS 

**SUB-M 32-FB (Llyras origin, she appears as a baby) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Llyra welcomes Namora and baby Namorita to Lemuria) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Llyra fights with Namora, while a teenage Namorita watches) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Llyra attends Namoras funeral) 
NM@ 5/3-FB (Llyra is high priestess of Lemuria) 
XF@ 4/4-FB (After Nagas death, Llyra plots to become Empress of Lemuria) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Llyra makes a pact with Byrrah to rule Atlantis) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Llyra and Byrrah take Namorita to the Antartic) 
{SUB-M 32} (Llyra is in command of Lemuria) 
SUB-M 36 
SUB-M 37 
SUB-M 43 
SUB-M 44 
SUB-M 45 
SUB-M 46 
**Sub-M 51-FB (Llyra tells Namorita that she must find Namor, and Namorita leaves the Antartic to begin the search) 
SUB-M 50 

BYRRAH [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SAGASM 2-FB 
M/:LG 3 
{TTA 90} 
TTA 91 
**SUB-M 51-FB (in exile, Byrrah makes a pact with Llyra) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Llyra and Byrrah take Namorita to the Antartic) 
SUB-M 33 
**Sub-M 51-FB (Llyra tells Namorita that she must find Namor, and Namorita leaves the Antartic to begin the search) 
SUB-M 50 
SUB-M 51 

NAMORA/AQUARIA NAUTICA NEPTUNIA [ATLANTEAN] 
**Order- 6-FB (has a 14 yr old Namor, and young Namora) 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82 
M/:LG 2 
**Sub-M 33-FB (moved) 
N 20-FB 
M/:LG 3 
NW@ 1/6-FB (Remove, this is a flashback to material covered in SUB 51-FB) 
SUB-M 51-FB (After Talans death, Namora seeks refuge in Lemuria, along with baby Namorita) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Namora fights Llyra, while a teenage Namorita watches) 
**SUB-M 51-FB (Namoras corpse appears, having been poisoned) 

{SUB-M 33-FB} <-Delete, this fb is to when Namora and Namor fought together, it must go BEFORE Namor loses his memory.) 
SUB-M 50 

Talan (Atlantean) (new listing) 
N 20-FB 
NW 44-FB 

Jones, Cindy (new listing) 
Sub-M 47 
Sub-M 48 
SUB-M 49 
Sub-M 50 

MODOK/GEORGE TARLETON 
CA 133 
**SUB-M 48-FB 
SUB-M 47 
SUB-M 48 
SUB-M 49 

Sub-M 48-FB: Modok thinks about how he survived at the end of CA 133.

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 01:55 pm    Post subject: T 182-FB
By Dhall

I need some help with this one. In T 182 there is a flashback that occurs in Dr. Doom's past. Help me out with it's placement. 


"A Few Years Ago" in France, Professor LaFarge and his young daughter Cosette by Latverians and brought to Doom's castle. Doom makes it quite clear that the girl will come to no harm as long as her father works on missile silo's for Doom. 

Characters: 
Dr. Doom 
Professor LaFarge 
Colette LaFarge 

Years later, the girl, all grown up, manages to escape from Latveria with the help of the Undergound. (Note: Doom does NOT appear in the second portion of the fb.) 

Character: 
Colette LaFarge 

So where in Doom's chronology does this go? It has to be long enough ago, for Colette to grow up. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 02:50 pm    Post subject: H2 145
By Dhall

Hulk 145 features a living statue called Colossus, this would be Colossus II, pushing Colossus of the X-Men to Colossus III.

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 06 Jan 2006 11:43 pm    Post subject: Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her Chronology...
By Kevin W.
Director

I figured I should note this now: the current Black Widow miniseries, ("Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her" seems to be trying really hard to not be set in the present day...or to be declared "non-canon", (but we'll reserve judgement for now)... it's more of a timeless tale, rather than meant to fit in with any other Marvel series... 

In the latest issue, (issue #4), Nick Fury has been thrown in Guantanamo Bay for interfering with the USA's attempt to capture the Black Widow...supposedly, he's being held under the Patriot Act...(you can hold the head of the U.N.'s peacekeeping task force as a terrorist?!?  ) 

Matt Murdock is there to represent Nick Fury as his lawyer, when Matt suddenly goes into a berzerker rage and attacks the guards and the military commander on the scene.  

So much for trying to keep it a secret that you're not Daredevil, Matt... 

After knocking out the guards around Fury's cell, other guards start bursting into the corridor, just as Matt is fleeing the prison. The guards shoot at him as he slips out a window. One of the guards says, "He's going to get away!" 

To which another guard says, "Yeah, right. He's a fancy New York lawyer, a suit, and he's blind. How far you think he's going to get?" 

To which Nick Fury just gives us a knowing smile...So has this guard just never watched the news? Everybody knows that Matt Murdock is Daredevil... 

Also, this miniseries is a direct sequel to the Black Widow miniseries from last year. It takes place mere weeks, (maybe even days) after the last miniseries ends. So I'm unsure about where to place this on the grand timeline of things...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 06 Jan 2006 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 11:45 pm
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
In the latest issue, (issue #4), Nick Fury has been thrown in Guantanamo Bay for interfering with the USA's attempt to capture the Black Widow...supposedly, he's being held under the Patriot Act...(you can hold the head of the U.N.'s peacekeeping task force as a terrorist?!?  <<<

You know, I wouldn't be surprised. Guantanemo is designed to be "extralegal" and breaks umpteen international laws. SHIELD not breaking him out is another matter, but still... 

Apologies for the interruption.

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 11:56 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Obviously, the writer agrees with your political point of viewpoint. I myself just shake my head in disbelief.  I can't remember where, but another recent comic book I read had somebody saying, "Ever hear of the Patriot Act? That gives us all we need to hold you in jail forever." I love it when writers feel they need to share their enlightened views with the rest of us.  

EDIT: I just remembered where I read that tidbit: "X-men: Deadly Genesis #2". 

To bring this back on topic...maybe SHIELD's not breaking him out because they're still mad at him over the Secret War? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 08:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Obviously, the writer agrees with your political point of viewpoint. I myself just shake my head in disbelief.  I can't remember where, but another recent comic book I read had somebody saying, "Ever hear of the Patriot Act? That gives us all we need to hold you in jail forever." I love it when writers feel they need to share their enlightened views with the rest of us.   
<<<

It's entirely true. The extralegal nature of Guantanamo Bay, the US's open disregard for international law, and the deliberate placing of captives beyond the reach of the US courts in order to deny them any legal protection, are all matters of objective fact, not opinion. It doesn't suddenly become a viewpoint merely because it's inconvenient for Republicans.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 12:24 pm  
By Kevin W.
Director

Careful, Paul. We'll hunt you down and throw you in Guantanamo Bay for that type of talk.  

I personally had thought the prior Black Widow miniseries, (which BW:TTTSAH is a sequel to) occured after the DD2 61-64 arc, (another arc where Fury aided the Widow in escaping from U.S. authorities). Fury's aid of the Widow here might've been the final straw, and that's why they tossed Fury in Guantanamo at this point.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 02:47 pm    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It's entirely true. The extralegal nature of Guantanamo Bay 
<<<

There is nothing "extralegal" about the base in Guantanamo Bay. I was born there, I'm entirely intra legal. It's Camp X-Ray, the detention center where specific "enemy combatants" from the war in Afghanistan are being held, that the comments specifically apply to. Gitmo still serves the same purpose it always has since it was established in the early 1900s, a base in the Caribbean for the US military. It's entirely legal, Castro gets paid for its use (though reports conflict as to whether or not he even bothers to cash the check, so to speak). It was an massive influx of Haitian refugees around 93-94 that led to the base getting reduced to an entirely military installation. They couldn't just send them all back to Haiti, and they couldn't just let them into the US, so while they were dealing with figuring out what the hell they were supposed to do according to laws that didn't apply to the situation, they were kept there. The same applies to the prisoners being held there now. They weren't part of an army, so the law of POWs doesn't apply. Rather than bring the whole lot of them, many of which have direct ties to terrorists, right smack in the middle of the US, they were put in a place that's far more secure and better equipped to handle a large amount of prisoners than any of the bases around the world. 

But the "held indefinitely" thing is crap, as a good majority of prisoners held there have been released over time. There's also absolutely no evidence to say random people for any old "evil government" reason are being held there. The place is getting treated like a modern day Area 51, a mythical place where "big brother" is holding all kinds of secrets underground (despite the fact, aside from the old, dilapidated bunkers in the mountains, nothing in Gitmo is underground. The whole damn place is coral, just about impossible to DIG in it, as I can attest from growing up there.) 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
the US's open disregard for international law 
<<<

As opposed to the prisoners' disregard for it by aiding the Taliban? TOUCHE! 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
and the deliberate placing of captives beyond the reach of the US courts in order to deny them any legal protection, are all matters of objective fact, not opinion.  
<<<

Doesn't make it any less a political jab just for the sake of saying, "Ooh! Lookit me! I'm making a politically charged remark!" What was it, about 10 years back, Cyclops was captured by SHIELD, and was held in secret on a Helicarrier of all things. Way up in the air, deep in the dark, all chained up, X-Force had to bust him out. Marvel's got all kinds of advanced technology and fictional countries, yet certain writers resort to real-world politics just for, dare I say it, shock and awe? The Marvel Knights Cap series didn't get dumped by readers on a wide scale because of Cassidy's art, that's for sure. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It doesn't suddenly become a viewpoint merely because it's inconvenient for Republicans. 
<<<

You do realize that many Democrats approved of Gitmo strategy just as well as Republicans, despite what they wish revisionist history to state? 

It is just stupid writing for anyone to have a character honestly think anywhere on Earth is going to be able to hold Nick Mother-Furious Fury for any length of time.

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 12:36 am    
By Col_Fury

Back to the subject: 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Also, this miniseries is a direct sequel to the Black Widow miniseries from last year. It takes place mere weeks, (maybe even days) after the last miniseries ends. So I'm unsure about where to place this on the grand timeline of things... 
<<<

Wasn't Yelena Belova in A4 1-6? And at the end of that arc, wasn't she burned horribly? I would say that this mini has to take place before A4 1-6... 

And of course, since Nick Fury is in this, it would also have to be before Secret War, if it's before A4 1-6. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Matt Murdock is there to represent Nick Fury as his lawyer, when Matt suddenly goes into a berzerker rage and attacks the guards and the military commander on the scene.   

Yeah. That really threw me, too. And yet in issue #3, Black Widow asks Matt "did Hell's Kitchen get too gentrified to need your services anymore? Or have you fallen out with your little greek ninja dolly again? Because this time around I'm afraid I don't--" At that point, Matt cuts her off. 

The Hell's Kitchen comment puts this after the 'year gap.' The Elektra comment seems to put this after 'Murdock Papers,' but I think we'll just chalk it up to Natasha being, um, snippy. 

This can't be after 'Murdock Papers' if it's also before A4 1-6. Nick's chronology just won't allow it. Taking Nick & Belova into account, and ignoring Natasha's comment,(which could be a reference to any time Elektra and Matt were on bad terms) this has to be before Secret War, and therefore A4 1-6. 

But Matt's berserker rage doesn't help things... 

And back off the subject: 

JLH wrote: 
>>>
It is just stupid writing for anyone to have a character honestly think anywhere on Earth is going to be able to hold Nick Mother-Furious Fury for any length of time. 
<<<

That's right!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 07:57 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I don't want to derail this thread too much, but some of this is so ludicrous that it cannot go unanswered. 

JLH wrote: 
>>>
There is nothing "extralegal" about the base in Guantanamo Bay. I was born there, I'm entirely intra legal. 
<<<

You know full well that the comments refer to the detention activities carried out there and not the presence of the base itself. This is mere point-scoring. 


Quote: 
>>>
But the "held indefinitely" thing is crap, as a good majority of prisoners held there have been released over time. 
<<<

That's just gibberish. You evidently don't know what "held indefinitely" means. "Held indefinitely" means "we'll hold on to you until we feel like releasing you", not "we'll hold you for the rest of your natural life." 


Quote: 
>>>
There's also absolutely no evidence to say random people for any old "evil government" reason are being held there. 
<<<

Irrelevant. The determination of the government to avoid any form of legal scrutiny makes the institution automatically suspect. Besides, if you accept THIS government asserting this sort of power, you have to accept that ALL SUBSEQUENT governments must also be able to assert this sort of power. It is unacceptable for a government to claim that it can lock people up indefinitely without legal review, whether or not it is acting in good faith. It fatally undermines the rule of law. 


Quote: 
>>>
As opposed to the prisoners' disregard for it by aiding the Taliban? TOUCHE! 
<<<

Of course, the ones who have eventually been released - sometimes after years in Guantanamo Bay - were eventually let out because the US government conceded that THEY WERE NEVER TERRORISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. That's why they were let out. 

Your entire position on Guantanmo Bay is premised on a presumption of guilt, which is ludicrous given that even the US government accepts that a lot of the people in there aren't guilty of anything. 


Quote: 
>>>
Doesn't make it any less a political jab just for the sake of saying, "Ooh! Lookit me! I'm making a politically charged remark!" 
<<<

I don't care. Support for Camp X-Ray involves such a fundamental denial of the basic values of our civilisation - primarily, the rule of law - that it is not a valid opinion deserving of respect. The normal principle of respect of dissenting opinions must be overruled when that respect involves a concession - such as the right of the government to detain indefinitely without judicial supervision - which would lead to the collapse of fundamental values of our society. No reasonable person, properly informed, could support Camp X-Ray, and no reasonable person, properly informed, does. Every single person who supports the policy is either ignorant, stupid or evil. I do not respect your views on this subject on any level, any more than I would respect your views if you were arguing for the legalisation of lynch mobs. 

Given that you clearly don't understand the issues involved, don't understand the meaning of "indefinitely", and don't know that many prisoners turned out to be innocent, you qualify as "not properly informed", which is by far the best of the three. 


Quote: 
>>>
You do realize that many Democrats approved of Gitmo strategy just as well as Republicans, despite what they wish revisionist history to state? 
<<<

I do, and I've got no respect for them either.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 04:01 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Yeah. That really threw me, too. And yet in issue #3, Black Widow asks Matt "did Hell's Kitchen get too gentrified to need your services anymore? Or have you fallen out with your little greek ninja dolly again? Because this time around I'm afraid I don't--" At that point, Matt cuts her off. 

The Hell's Kitchen comment puts this after the 'year gap.' The Elektra comment seems to put this after 'Murdock Papers,' but I think we'll just chalk it up to Natasha being, um, snippy. <<< 


I took those lines as not plot point specific, (in other words, I though Black Widow was just speaking in general, not truly in reference to Daredevil being the new Kingpin, or anything like that). However, if they can be used as evidence for placement on the timeline, then great. But I wouldn't rely on those lines for placement in and of themselves. 

Allright, time to put an end to it. I started the thread to raise a red flag regarding the Black Widow's chronology, and Col. Fury's done a pretty good job at pointing out some other things we need to take note of. We still have a couple more issues to go before this miniseries is complete, so we'll probably need to play "wait and see" on this for now. Political discussion can make for interesting reading, but I don't believe this is the place for it, (though I'm just as guilty as anyone else, with my pointing out my distaste for that line in "X-men: Deadly Genesis #2"). So before this gets too far out of hand, I'm going to go ahead and lock this topic.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 29

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 09:17 pm    Post subject: T 184-188
By Dhall

Volstagg 
T 181 
T 184<- Should be T 184-FB 
T 185 
T 186 

Fandral 
T 181 
T 184 <- Should be T 184-FB 
T 185 
T 186 

Hogun 
T 181 
T 184<- Should be T 184-FB 
T 185 
T 186 

Odin 
T 183 
**T 184-FB-BTS 
T 184 
T 185 
T 186 

HELA [ASGARDIAN] 
JIM 102/2 
DF 3.6 
T 133/2 
T 150 
T 154 
**T 188-FB 
T 183-BTS 
T 184-BTS 
T 185-BTS 
T 186 

INFINITY 
**T 188-FB 
T 184 
T 185 
T 186 
T 187 
T 188 

Odin 
T 175 
T 176 
**T 188-FB 
T 177 
T 178 
T 179 
T 180 

T 188-FB: While Odin is asleep in his capsule (as seen in T 177) Hela ages Balder, tries to kill Odin, fails, but uses part of Odins essence to create Infinity.

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Thread 30

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Leader
By Dhall

Leader 
H2 146-BTS <---Remove 
H2 146-FB 
H2 146 

I'm not understanding this one, the Leader appears in both the flashback and in the main issue, so he's not BTS anywhere.

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Posted: 09 Jan 2006 12:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

If the flashback occurs between pages, then he could be behind the scenes, in the segment prior to the flashback. 


watching: smallville

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Thread 31

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 04:38 am    Post subject: Time-travelling in Bug #1
By jannepie

In Bug #1, Bug and Annihilus jump in time and witness the origins of some iconic Marvel characters, also getting involved in some of the happenings. 

Would the appearances of the characters in the past be considered canon? I'm not really sure if the characters involved are supposed to be the main 616 individuals or alternative timeline counterparts.

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 12:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'd say they're the real deals unless they're completely unworkable. 

Except Batman. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 05:06 pm    
By Enda80

Almost forgot 

http://members.tripod.com/originalvigilante/bug.htm 

After all of that, Bug was able to control the Rod better than Annihilus, and brought everything back to the place in time and space where it began, the floors of the Fantastic Four headquarters in the Negative Zone. Bug somehow set up a loop in time that forced Annihulus back out of the structure whenever he got inside. So none of it ever happened and Bug returned to the Microverse and Annihilus was stuck in the Negative Zone again, having eventually tired of trying to get the ultimate power he used to have.

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 05:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Almost forgot 
<<<

Thank goodness you remembered. Threads around here just aren't the same without an Enda80-provided link to something. 

Can I ask what this particular link has to do with chronology, though? Or are you contending that the events were wiped from history and therefore shouldn't be included in the MCP? 

Hey, apropos of nothing, DragynWulf wants to know if I only give HIS posts a hard time. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 06:24 pm    
By garbonzo

So if I make another proposal that we start tracking non-sentient objects (cosmic cubes, infinity gems, scorpion key, the wand of whatever-it-is, etc.) will you start to give me a hard time too? 

garbonzo

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 07:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Would you prefer it?  

(Though, I thought the Infinity Gems and Cosmic Cubes WERE sentient ... no?) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 07:22 pm    
By Jason Doty

This brings up an interesting question. 

If a character or characters have an adventure and at the end of the adventure they do something to reverse the happenings, do we not put the events in chronological order? I mean, they would have to happen in order for the characters to reverse them, right?

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 09:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The precedents that come to mind are that we do include the appearances. 


watching: 24

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 10:00 pm    
By Jason Doty

What are the specific precedents? 

Occations I can think of off the top of my head are the Kulan gath story in UX, Marvel Universe: The End and the New warriors Sphynx thing. All were rulled the same way?

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 10:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Infinity Gauntlet, for instance. 


watching: 24

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 10:20 pm    
By Jason Doty

This is not meant to touch off a giant debate and I'm pretty sure it was discussed before, but why not include these type of events? 

Chronologicaly speaking a character appears in an issue next from his last appearance, events unfold, another character alters these events, and then the character appears in his or her next appearance. 

How does this adversly affect the Project? It confines the story to a specific area and refers the researcher to the next chronological appearance.

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 12:46 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Not sure what you're asking. I think I just said that we do include these types of events. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 01:02 am    
By Jason Doty

Sorry, I misread your reply.

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 01:14 am    
By jannepie

Do you need issues analysis for Bug #1? 

(What about Annex #1-4? I asked about them in another thread but no one answered.)

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 03:20 am    
By jephyork
Director

See, *I* was under the impression that we *didn't* include this type of thing. 

"Infinity Gauntlet" got included because, when Nebula ordered the Infinity Gems to remake the universe to "the way it was 24 hours ago", she wasn't using time-travel to negate the events, she was moving everything and everyone back to where they were 24 hours ago. That time still passed -- certain characters (Adam Warlock, Dr. Strange, Nebula herself) still remembered the events occuring. 

Whereas, when characters use time-travel to go back and ensure that events never happened -- a divergent universe is created, and in that divergence the events simply DID NOT happen. Nobody can remember them because they never occured in that new, divergent universe. 

The best example of my point is the X-Men's "Days of Future Past" scenario. If the MCP *did* include events and appearances that were erased through time travel, all the X-Men would have listings that, after UX #141, included all the DoFP stories up through the events in the year 2013 in UX #142 -- then started up again with the present-day events of UX #141, picking up at the moment that the adult Kate Pryde manifested in Kitty's body and the DoFP timeline was erased. 

However, we DON'T include stories like that -- as far as the X-Men's chronologies are concerned, the events of the DoFP timeline never happened. And they're reflected as not having happened on the MCP. 

Therefore, I'm thinking that sets a precedent for NOT listing "events erased via time-travel" on the MCP ... although I'd offer the caveat that each situation is likely unique and should be debated individually. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 05:43 am    
By Enda80

Actually, the DOFP timeline had diverged before the death of Senator Kelly anyway with Phoenix the Untold Story#1.

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 06:32 am    
By jannepie

jephyork wrote: 
See, *I* was under the impression that we *didn't* include this type of thing. 

IIRC Bug still remembered what had been going on. Also Annihilus and maybe Marionette and Rann have appearances that can be considered of having actually happened.

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 08:24 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Therefore, I'm thinking that sets a precedent for NOT listing "events erased via time-travel" on the MCP ... although I'd offer the caveat that each situation is likely unique and should be debated individually. 
<<<

Yeah, I agree, but I think that's a little bit different from the scenario that Jason suggested. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 08:27 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Actually, the DOFP timeline had diverged before the death of Senator Kelly anyway with Phoenix the Untold Story#1. 
<<<

Uh oh. I smell a can of worms opening ... okay, so maybe I picked a bad (or convoluted) example. Still, I hope you take my meaning ... when the MU is altered by time travelers from the future, we don't have a precedent of listing the entire original timeline, then starting over with the divergence point. Justice's timeline doesn't list his "original" fate as Major Vance Astro, then start over when the MU is diverged onto a new path via time travel in M/TIO #69. 

It seems like, if that's the way we treat events that are erased by people from the future, then that's the way we should treat events that are erased by people from the present as well. The only difference is the amount of time that's being erased. 


Quote: 
>>>
IIRC Bug still remembered what had been going on. 
<<<

Yu're right, he does remember -- but nobody else does. So I guess the events occured in Bug's personal chronology, but were deleted from the wider Marvel Universe ... I have a headache. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 08:42 am    
By Jason Doty

I brought this up because something very similar is about to occur in the current Marvel Team-Up arc and includes characters from the 616 expierencing a chain of events that will have to be altered in some way and when they alter them and reality reverts many of the posts in other area messages have been to the affect "We don't have to worry about it because it "did'nt" happen." 

In my mind, it has to happen in order to change it, and does not hurt the Project by including it. It is still a chronological placement in a character's listing no mater how it gets changed back and would almost always confine the story arc to a specific point in the Project. 

We still list everyone that appeared in the Kulan Gath arc in UX, even though only a handful of people remember it.

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 09:59 am    
By jephyork
Director

Was the Kulan Gath arc in UX wiped out through time travel? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 02:01 pm    
By Jason Doty

It would take quite awhile to dig the issue out, so here is the bottom lines from the summary section at uncannyxmen.net for Uncanny X-Men no.191 

Quote: 
>>>
Dr. Strange uses the remains of Kulan Gaths energy and a combination of sorcery and Magiks powers to cause a jump back in time, before the whole Kulan Gath incident happened. Everything is back to normal. No one died, but also no one remembers the X-Men's heroism with the exeption of Dr.Strange, Captain America, Magik, Storm and Arilynn Williams. 

Back in the subway, Jaime Rodriguez is again about to be attacked by a thief (check Uncanny X-men #189), the event that set the Kulan Gath incident in motion. Yet this time, suddenly a robot materiales behind them It quickly realizes the threat and terminates the thief. Jaime, drops the necklace and it sinks into the mud. Nimrod sees a Dazzler Movie poster, with graffiti on it "Mutie Die!". The robot makes conclusions, mutants exist in this society, so according to its programming, they need to be exterminated. 
<<<

So with a combination of magic and Illyana's abilities time was reversed and the interaction of another time travler caused the event not to take place.

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 03:32 pm    
By jephyork
Director

This is the sort of thing that drives me nuts. Time travel was explicitly used to wipe out the event -- yet certain people remember it. Which shouldn't be possible. 

The way I'd interpret this individual case is: 

Thanks to time-travel (Nimrod's appearance creating a divergent universe), the Kulan Gath-verse events never happened in the MU timeline. The only reason that certain characters remember the events is through Dr. Strange's magic -- if strict time-travel rules applied, the characters would have no memories of the events, as that timeline's version of them never lived through the events at all. 

Therefore, even though some characters remember the events, they didn't actually *live* through them. The *events never happened* in the current version of the MU timeline, so they shouldn't get listed. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 03:49 pm    
By garbonzo

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Therefore, even though some characters remember the events, they didn't actually *live* through them. The *events never happened* in the current version of the MU timeline, so they shouldn't get listed. 
<<<


So is this how you propose we handle the HoM situation? It is unclear how much time has passed (i think...I don't have any of the finale books in front of me) if any from the white light. So, if people don't remember and they didn't happen in the current Marvel timeline.....

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 04:54 pm    
By Enda80

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Uh oh. I smell a can of worms opening ... okay, so maybe I picked a bad (or convoluted) example. Still, I hope you take my meaning ... when the MU is altered by time travelers from the future, we don't have a precedent of listing the entire original timeline, then starting over with the divergence point. Justice's timeline doesn't list his "original" fate as Major Vance Astro, then start over when the MU is diverged onto a new path via time travel in M/TIO #69. 
<<<

You picked another bad example. Earth-691 diverged with FF I#1 (the Official Handbook in Vance Astro's entry notes that: "In this alternate future Reed Richards never released his own experimental starship to the government and they were unaware that he had developed it".

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 05:00 pm    
By Enda80

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Was the Kulan Gath arc in UX wiped out through time travel? 
<<<


Take a look at this from Nimrod's Official Handbook Entry" 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=9053&sid=86c12fea860ec5d8568c635e3e09fd6e

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 10:37 pm    
By Col_Fury

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
So is this how you propose we handle the HoM situation? It is unclear how much time has passed (i think...I don't have any of the finale books in front of me) if any from the white light. So, if people don't remember and they didn't happen in the current Marvel timeline..... 
<<<

That's yet another situation. Those events were erased from most characters memories,(by the Scarlet Witch, not time travel) but HoM still happened. We know this because characters awoke in different places than they were after HoM, than where they were before HoM. The events took place, but most don't remember it. I would say that HoM should still be listed in their respective chronologies. 

Here's a more recent example of events being erased through time travel: 

FF 527-532 involve Reed sabotaging the recreation of his space flight, witnessing the birth of the universe, and then starting over from just before the sabotage of the space flight, but not having to because the cosmic communication had been dispersed. Since it already made contact with Reed, it no longer had to transmit, so Reed didn't have to sabotage the new space flight, erasing the ensuing events of FF 529-531. 

FF 532 pg12 picks up where FF 528 pg15 left off, erasing the events of FF 528 pg16 through FF 532 pg 11. 

I'm pretty sure that Reed remembers the events that were erased, but no one else does. So does that mean FF 529-531 would be listed in Reed's chronology, but no one else's?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 11:17 pm    
By Somebody

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
You picked another bad example. Earth-691 diverged with FF I#1 (the Official Handbook in Vance Astro's entry notes that: "In this alternate future Reed Richards never released his own experimental starship to the government and they were unaware that he had developed it". 
<<<

30-plus footnotes in Guardians of the Galaxy sez you're wrong. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Was the Kulan Gath arc in UX wiped out through time travel? 
<<<

Take a look at this from Nimrod's Official Handbook Entry" 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=9053 
<<<

Problem with THAT is that Greunwald and Sanderson, as Paul O notes in that very same thread, were stretching things to the point that the profile bore only a limited resemblance to the story in question.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 02:03 am    
By jephyork
Director

Magically altering the past makes my head hurt. 

YES, we should list HoM in everyone's chronology, as no time travel was involved. 

YES, Reed should be the only person who gets a listing for appearing in FF #529-531. 

NO, in my opinion we shouldn't list events that were erased via time-travel. 


Looking at Bug #1 and all the past events he encounters, it's probably a good thing that we're considering those events erased. Although the writer intended to have Bug *cause* the origin of many Marvel heroes, there's a few that he simply screws up. 

- For example, Bug splatters mud on Victor Von Doom's lab notes -- before, Victor's accident was caused by a math error, not a smudge. 

- Bug saturates Wolverine with extra adamantium -- an unnecessary addition, as there was no "sudden surge of adamantium" that needed explaining in the original story. 

- Bug's presence causes a drunk Tony Stark, thinking he's hallucinating, to decide to quit drinking. If only it had happened that easily. 

- Bug accidentally shoots Captain America in the back, allowing the Red Skull to defeat him -- did this ever happen? 

- Bug causes Black Bolt to speak, "felling" the Inhuman community. This clearly never happened. 

So, yeah, despite the story telling us that Bug caused Spider-Man's spider to be irradiated, drove Dr. Strange off the road and caused the hole in the truck that Daredevil's radioactive isotope fell out of -- as well as knocking the bat through Bruce Wayne's window -- I think we can safely assume that all these events would have happened without him, and it's okay to treat the events of this issue as "deleted from continuity". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 07:53 am    
By Jason Doty

Jeph! wrote 
>>>
NO, in my opinion we shouldn't list events that were erased via time-travel.  
<<<

This has nothing to do with listing a chronological account of where a character appears next. This is being upset or disappointed with how a writer presents a story and how you believe time travel should work in a fictional universe. 

This borders the calander teritory (yes, I like the calander, but understand that it does not always mesh), where things are made to fit a prescribed theory of how things work. 

What you say about the events not happening makes sense, but in order for them to be changed or reversed they have to take place. Picking and chosing which characters get a listing, when the events clearly happened to all in the issue is just wrong. 

Lets follow the stories as they are presented and not by how we believe things should work. 

Coming to this site a viewer would want to follow a characters listing from their last appearance to the next and would be very disappointed if we started ommiting issues based on theories of how things work. 

In my opinion, we need to include stories on how they are presented, not ommiting what we don't like about it. If an issue does not directly contridict continuity, and through some form of time travel, undoes what has been writen in order to not disrupt continuity it should be included as presented.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 08:30 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
If an issue does not directly contridict continuity, and through some form of time travel, undoes what has been writen in order to not disrupt continuity it should be included as presented. 
<<<

But time travel, clearly does disrupt continuity. If the events in question were wiped out by time turning back in some fashion, then those events didn't actually happen in the 616 timeline. 

Now just because one character remembers those events, doesn't mean that they actually happened in the 616 timeline, but it does mean that they experienced them in some way in a divergent timeline. 

This isn't much different than say character A goes to the future for a few issues, then returns to the present, those issues would get a listing. 

So if Character A has experiences in a timeline that is wiped out by the timeline being returned to the divergence point, but they remember it, then that timeline is part of thier experience, so shouldn;t they get a listing? 

Now if Character B appears in the divergent timeline, has experiences, but these are completely wiped out, then from his POV those experiences in that time line never happened, thus no listing. 

Dave

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 10:57 am    
By Somebody

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
So if Character A has experiences in a timeline that is wiped out by the timeline being returned to the divergence point, but they remember it, then that timeline is part of thier experience, so shouldn;t they get a listing? 

Now if Character B appears in the divergent timeline, has experiences, but these are completely wiped out, then from his POV those experiences in that time line never happened, thus no listing. 
<<<

Agreed

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:03 am    
By Starman

Makes me think of Cable and Rachel that lived in the future, but then later that timeline were erased from existence because of the the outcome of the Twelve Saga and Apocalypse's death in X-Men: Search for Cyclops #4. This erased the Askani future from existence and while Jean, Scott, Cable and other people, who spent some time there, still remember it, it did not happen for Rachel. She wound up somewhere else in the timestream; probably because her (dead) body was still in that future timeline in the instant it ceased to be. Rachel retains some pale memories of her life as Mother Askani, but that's it.
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:49 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Makes me think of Cable and Rachel that lived in the future, but then later that timeline were erased from existence because of the the outcome of the Twelve Saga and Apocalypse's death in X-Men: Search for Cyclops #4. This erased the Askani future from existence  
<<<

Now, I think we have to be very careful about this sort of thing because I'm not sure that is the case. The Askani timeline was erased as far as it being a possible future for 616 earth yes, but erased from existence? I doubt it, I mean if Apocalypse comes back, then is this future suddenly restored? I believe the Askani timeline is a divergent future, just like any seen in What If? It's not currently relevant, but the basic events still occur in some part of the Marvel Multiverse, just not in Earth-616. 

Remember that the Age of Apocalypse was supposed to have been wiped out of existence, but is alive and kicking. 

Dave

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 12:09 pm    
By Jason Doty

DHall wrote 
>>>
But time travel, clearly does disrupt continuity. If the events in question were wiped out by time turning back in some fashion, then those events didn't actually happen in the 616 timeline. 
<<<

The point of the site is to list were a character appears next, not what happened in the story. These events happened in the 616 and then were corrected in the 616. Therefor they should be chronologicaly placed by us in where they fit. 

The next thing will be people trying to find ways to disinclude stories every time they personally don't like them.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 12:42 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Here we go again, Jason. 

Quote: 
>>>
This has nothing to do with listing a chronological account of where a character appears next. 
<<<

Yes -- it does. 

Quote: 
>>>
This is being upset or disappointed with how a writer presents a story and how you believe time travel should work in a fictional universe. 
<<<

No -- it doesn't. I'm not "upset" or "disappinted" in anything. 

If anything, Jason, YOU get upset and disappointed ANY time ANYONE mentions dropping ANYTHING from the MCP. And then you write a long post about how "it doesn't actively contradict anything" and "it can be fit between other stories" and "the MCP should keep everything". 

Well, no. The MCP shouldn't keep "everything". That's not its job, and I'm sorry that upsets and disappoints you. 

Here are two examples of time-travel stories. Because I can't seem to pick ones from actual comics that actually work, I'm going to make them up. Here: 

Example 1: 

Spider-Man's wife is killed in issue #100. He time-travels to the past in #101, and saves her in #102. He then time-travels back to the present in #102, and is elated to discover that the present has been changed. He is the only one who remembers her death. 

Example 2: 

Spider-Man's wife is killed in issue #100. He time-travels to the past in #101, and saves her in #102. The instant he saves her, he begins to fade away. The Spider-Man of that time period comes by just as he vanishes, and asks MJ what happened. 

These are two examples where time travel works differently. Both follow different rules -- in one, Spidey's actions ALTER the present, and in another, Spidey's actions create a DIVERGENT present, which the MU then follows from that point on. 

I give you these two examples since you claim that I'm trying to impose rules on how MU time-travel "should work". My point is, no I'm not -- I'm trying to standardize HOW we list various TYPES of time-travel stories. 

Now you, Jason, would have us list issue #101 in Spider-Man's chronology in BOTH examples. Your rationale would no doubt be a long post about how it doesn't contradict anything and it can be easily placed and the MCP should list everything. 

Now in example 1, by the end of #102, Spider-Man has still lived through the events of #101. He is the Spider-Man that did the time-travelling. 

However, in example 2, the Spider-Man that shows up at the end of #102 is NOT the Spider-Man that did the time-travelling. The Spider-Man that time-travelled has vanished -- been erased by his own actions. The Spider-Man that shows up at the end of #102 never lived through MJ's death and never time-travelled -- as far as his personal chronology is concerned, #100 flows directly into #102. So that's what the MCP should reflect. 

In this case, #101 now shows the adventures of a Spider-Man from a PREVIOUS, no-longer-existant timeline. This appearance should NOT be listed because it didn't happen to the Spider-Man from the current, altered timeline. 

Did you follow me so far? 

Quote: 
>>>
in order for them [the events] to be changed or reversed they have to take place. Picking and chosing which characters get a listing, when the events clearly happened to all in the issue is just wrong. 
<<<

I agree with your first sentence. The events needed to occur, in order for characters to react to them and erase them. However, it does NOT automatically follow that, since it is an Event That Occured, we must therefore list it on the MCP. 

Let's use our Spider-Man examples above. Let's say that, before departing for the past in #101, Spider-Man holds a silent vigil over MJ's dead body. That gives MJ's corpse an appearance in #101. 

Now, of course, in both examples MJ's death is erased. Thanks to a time-travelling Spidey's intervention, she doesn't die. Her personal chronology goes straight from "about-to-die" in #100 to "saved-by-Spidey" in #102. For her, the events of #101 have NO LONGER OCCURED. 

You'd have us list them anyway. And that's where our philosophies differ. 

Here's a third example. I tried to use "Days of Future Past" to illustrate this, but it's got too convoluted a divergence point. So I'm altering the DoFP scenario to make this point. 

Spider-Man's wife is killed in #100. Crushed, he is a broken man for the next forty years. The world becomes a dark and dystopian place because he does not aid his fellow heroes (several of whom appear over the storyline). This storyline continues for several issues -- in each issue, Spidey visits MJ's tomb, where her body is on display, preserved behind glass. Finally, a bitter, elderly Spider-Man stumbles across Dr. Doom's time machine, and in #120 he time-travels back and saves her. The instant he saves her, he begins to fade away. The Spider-Man of that time period comes by just as he vanishes, and asks MJ what happened. 

This is a logical extension of my Example 2. The only difference is, in example 2 Spidey takes immediate action -- in this new example he waits 40 years and THEN takes action. 

Now, you would have the MCP list the appearances of Spider-Man and MJ's corpse in #101 from example 2 -- even though those appearances were deleted in #102. 

I've constructed the example above so that Spidey and MJ's corpse appear in every issue from #101-119. Would you have us list them? They occur over a 40 year period, but by your logic, "the events had to happen in order to be erased". 


I've also noted that several other characters appear in this dark and twisted timeline. Should they get these appearances listed? Let's say that Captain America appears in #115, which takes place 25 years in the future, and he is killed. If you want us to include Spidey and MJ's appearances from this timeline in their chronologies, then logically we should include EVERYONE else's -- so this Cap appearance should be listed in-between regular issues of his regular title, which occurs in the present day. Right? I mean, after all, "the events had to happen in order to be erased" -- so they should be listed -- right? 

Wrong. Every single "future story" is, by its nature, an "alternate future" -- and the MCP doesn't deal in alternate futures. The fact that this story is told over the next 40 years basically invalidates it. The minute it goes from being a "present-day story" to a "future story" -- it becomes an "alternate future story", and is thus invalidated from MCP consideration. 

You've got to agree with that, right? I mean, it occurs in the future -- all futures are by their very nature "alternate" -- so it's an alternate future and shouldn't get listed. 

I've never heard you question THAT policy of ours -- so it's likely you agree with it, right? 

So, even though the events of this story "happened" -- even though they "needed to happen in order to be erased" -- all of #101-119 occurs in an *alternate future*. So I can assume you have no problem with us skipping from #100 straight to #120 in the chronologies of Spider-Man and MJ, right? 

Now, the big question: what's the difference between this example and example 2? 

In this example, Spidey waits 40 years -- waits until his timeline goes into "the future". In example 2, Spidey waits maybe TWO DAYS before travelling back in time. It's still "the present" when he goes back. 

But what's the difference? 

When he goes back, he alters the MU -- changes it on a fundamental level so that MJ never died. He then vanishes. Now, pay attention -- because, from the point of view of the Spider-Man who shows up at the end of #102, asking MJ what just happened -- THE SPIDEY WHO SAVED HIS WIFE WAS FROM THE FUTURE. 

From the point of view of the Spider-Man whose adventures the MCP is following from now on -- the Spider-Man who saved his wife came from two days in the FUTURE. And since we're now operating from HIS point of view -- the storyline where MJ dies in #100 and Spidey travels back in #101 -- has just become a story that occurs IN THE FUTURE. 

And when a story occurs in the future, what does that mean? That's right -- it automatically becomes an "alternate" future. Especially if the events in that future never come to pass, which is what happens here. 

So, if you have no problem with us not including a Spidey story that occurs 40 years into an alternate future, then you should have no problem with us not including a Spidey story that occurs 2 days into an alternate future. 

Right? 

So, if you've managed to follow all of that -- that's my rebuttal to your contention that "the events had to happen in order to be erased, so we should list them". No, we shouldn't -- and that's why. 


Quote: 
>>>
In my opinion, we need to include stories on how they are presented, not ommiting what we don't like about it. 
<<<

Again, this has nothing to do with "what we like or don't like". We're doing what the comics tell us. If the comic erases certain events, so do we. If the comic alters past events, so do we. We DO WHAT THE COMICS SAY TO DO -- regardless of our personal feelings. 

YOU are the one who has a personal feeling -- you feel that we should include erased events, despite the fact that the comics have demonstrated that they never occured. 

Quote: 
>>>
in order to not disrupt continuity it should be included as presented. 
<<<

I think you and I have a different definition of "as presented". In my definition, if a story "presents" that certain events have been erased, we should include the current version of events, "as presented". 

And as for "disrupting continuity", don't you think an appearance of MJ as a dead body would "disrupt continuity" if it were placed between issues where, in the current version of the timeline, she doesn't die? 

As far as the current version of MJ goes, her timeline goes straight from "about to die" in #100 to "saved by a Spidey from 2 days in the future" in #102. She doesn't die -- she only dies in an older, excised version of the timeline. Including #101, which occurs in that older, EXCISED timeline, would be a disservice to the current timeline that the COMICS TELL US NOW EXISTS. It would, in effect, "disrupt" the "continuity" that the comics are telling us now exists "as presented". 


Jason, I get that you have a desire for completeness. But what we've tried to point out to you time and again is that the MCP doesn't necessarily share your desire. We want to include every appearance of every character, yes, but we take a very large cue from THE COMICS, in determining what counts. 

And if the comics say that an event is erased -- no matter our personal "feelings" on the matter -- we follow the comics' lead. 

Okay? 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 07 Jan 2006 01:06 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 12:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Jason, you posted again while I was typing up my large post above. Here's some feedback to your most recent post. 

Quote: 
>>>
The point of the site is to list were a character appears next, not what happened in the story. 
<<<

Rebutted above. Are YOU telling US what the point of OUR site is? As far as I know, the point of our site is to list appearances in order based on the clues given in the comics. If the COMICS erase an event -- so do we. If the comics have a single character live through that erased event, so do we. 

Quote: 
>>>
The next thing will be people trying to find ways to disinclude stories every time they personally don't like them. 
<<<

You're on thin ice here, Jason. You need to stop implying that our personal likes and dislikes cause us to pick and choose what goes in. You seem to bring it up every time you want to win an argument, and I find the implication insulting. 

The MCP does what the comics tell us to do. End of story. If a comic, or even an Index, indicates a chronological placement that we happen to dislike, guess what? We put it in the MCP anyway. How many times have you seen us say "it doesn't matter if you'd PREFER a different placement. Unless you can prove that the Index is wrong, its placement stands"? 

The same applies here -- unless you can prove that the comic is wrong when it claims to have erased an event, the erasure stands. 

I absolutely do not appreciate your constant statements that, just because we're not doing what YOU want, we're letting our personal feelings steer us down the wrong path. 


And DHall, what I think Starman is saying is that the Askani future was erased from Rachel's *personal chronology* -- not erased from the Multiverse. It still happened, yes, but it's now the future of an *alternate* Rachel Summers, and shouldn't be included in "our" Rachel Summers' chronology. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 01:16 pm    
By Jason Doty

Your explanation is extensive as always Jeph! I agree with you on many points, but before tossing and chucking out key events lets review how many times this happened. For this we are going to need a list. 

Your suggestion proposses that Uncanny X-Men no.190 and 191 are going to be tossed out of continuity along with the last scene in UX 189 for everyone excluding the characters that remember, correct? 

Even though the indexes support these issues as having occured. 

In fairness I want a complete list of everytime this has happened, can anyone help? 

Also, the Administrator said the precedent was to include these type of events and I'm not personally calling you out, but you posted that this type of thing hurts your head and gave me a lengthy post on different types time travel and how they work. I'm not telling you how to run the site, but there seems to be confussion. 

Also, if my post seems directed at you it is not in a mean spirited way, but you personally come out the strongest against me each time and though I may not rebultte you the most cleverly, I'm not posting to piss you off.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jan 2006 01:27 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I know you're not trying to piss me off, Jason. I'm not trying to piss YOU off either -- in fact, as a person I quite like you. I just think we come at things from very differing points of view, and it naturally leads to some frustration on both our parts. 

I resent certain implications you make, yes, but I know you love the MCP, which gives you big points.  

And you're quite right, there does seem to be some difference of opinion between Russ and I. I should probably talk to him privately before espousing what "the MCP's policy is". So let me say, here and now, that my statements above are "what I'd like to see the MCP's policy be". I can back up WHY i feel this way with plenty of cold hard temporal logic, but I'm only one of seven votes around here. 

As for a complete list of every instance where this has happened -- well, have you got a decade or two?  This is why I said that we should look at each scenario individually -- Marvel's time travel rules are rarely consistent, and each story is likely to produce a different chronological listing depending on the rules it chooses to follow. 

Quote: 
>>>
Your suggestion proposses that Uncanny X-Men no.190 and 191 are going to be tossed out of continuity along with the last scene in UX 189 for everyone excluding the characters that remember, correct? 
<<<

As for UX #189-191 -- well, in this case MAGIC is the time-travel agent -- and magic is always a wildcard. And given that various characters remember the events but others don't, the story doesn't really point towards a clear and understandable explanation for precisely HOW to deal with the event erasure. 

I would *suggest* that all of UX #190-191 be excised from everyone's chronology, with the lame explanation "magic" when asked why certain characters remember it -- but in this case, we have an Index that supports a different interpretation of events. Since the most recent Index treats the appearances as Having Happened, I'm afraid I can't let my "personal feelings" enter into it.  I have to stand by the Index's contention that the events occured. 

If I needed to rationalize the Index's decision for myself, I would say that Strange and Magik's spell did NOT cause time to literally be rolled back, but instead caused every person, place and thing to revert to the status quo it held just prior to Kulan Gath's spell. Similar to the way Nebula ordered the universe to revert to its status quo of 24 hours previous in "Infinity Gauntlet", the events occured but were erased by resetting the present -- not erased by travelling to the past. And therefore, in BOTH cases (IG and UX), Doctor Strange and certain others remember the events as having occured -- because they did. 

See, I'm flexible.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 01:46 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I just re-read Russ' reply to you, Jason, and he is responding to your question of, do we list events that are "reversed". Citing Infinity Gauntlet, he says that yes we do. 

I then say that we shouldn't list events that were "erased", and mention some time-travel scenarios. Russ then says, in response to me, that he thought you were laying out a different type of scenario. 

Meaning -- I think Russ and I are talking about different things. "Reversed" events versus "erased" events. 

He's saying that the MCP keeps in events like Infinity Gauntlet. As I've pointed out, Infinity Gauntlet does not use time-travel. 

I'm not so sure that Russ and I have differing opinions after all. In IG, the one example cited by both of us, we agree on how to treat the "reversed" events -- keep them in. 

I haven't heard Russ chime in, one way or the other, on how we deal with events that were "erased", via time-travel. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 01:58 pm    
By Starman

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And DHall, what I think Starman is saying is that the Askani future was erased from Rachel's *personal chronology* -- not erased from the Multiverse. 
<<<

Yes, about Rachel's personal chronology. That's how I understood it, at least. If the Askani future still exists, that haven't yet been confirmed (to my knowledge) since Cable saved Rachel from Gaunt. (Check the spotlight on Marvel Girl III on UncannyXmen.Net) 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It still happened, yes, but it's now the future of an *alternate* Rachel Summers, and shouldn't be included in "our" Rachel Summers' chronology. 
<<<

Yes, that seems to be how it was retconned into in the comics. 

--- 

I'm just having a little trouble understanding on why the circumstances only changed for Rachel, but not for Cable, Jean Grey and Cyclops...  

--- 

EDIT: 

Found this when looking through UncannyXmen.Net about the Askani timeline. 
Quote: 
>>>
With Apocalypse getting killed by Cables psimitar in X-Men : Search for Cyclops #4, the entire Askani future timeline has been erased from existence. While Jean, Scott, Cable and other people, who spent some time there, still remember it, it did not happen for Rachel. Being a chronal anomaly, she wound up somewhere else in the timestream; probably because her (dead) body was still in that future timeline in the instant it ceased to be. Rachel retains only some pale memories of her life as Mother Askani. 
<<<

Was this erasement confirmed in the comics, or in the newly released handbooks?
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 03:48 pm    
By Starman

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Remember that the Age of Apocalypse was supposed to have been wiped out of existence, but is alive and kicking. 
<<<

Yes, through a retcon, but before that it was considered gone, although that didn't stop X-Man from time-travel back into the past of that timeline in X-Man Annual '96... 

The physics of the Marvel Multiverse confuses me.  *sighs*
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 08:25 pm    
By Jason Doty

This is my problem, the best way I can explain it. 

Regardless of the "how" time is reversed, it is. Either through mechanical, magical, mystical, or other means. Recreating the universe through the use of a power gem or reversing events is the same thing. Time is being reset or somehow manipulated. 

Events that originate in the future are alternate realities, but my concern is with those that happen in the "now" like UX 190-191, Infinity Gauntlet, The New Warriors arc, and the current Marvel Team-Up arc. 

I completely understand why others see this as imposibilities, but I see them as isolated occurances that by their very nature get confined to the place on the project that they occur. The characters appeared chronologically next in these events and there should be reference to them. 

I'm not trying to repeat myself over and over again and realizes I'm probably covering the same ground but to me there is no difference in reversed or erased. Time was manipulated in some fasion. This is why I believe we should amend the listings to reference discrepencies. If an event takes place at a certain period on the Project why not throw parenthesies around it. Not because it didn't happen but because we dont agree on the "how", and before it's brought up I don't mean anything that contradicts established continuity.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:15 pm    
By stavesacre79

Is there anything more confusing than time travel and alternate realities? I just read through all 3 pages of this post and I have a few questions and a few comments. 
First question: when MCP lists events, it lists them in the order the character EXPERIENCES them, correct? (This is as opposed to "chronological" order in a calenderial sense.) 
I'm 99% sure the answer is yes, MCP lists in order that the character experiences something. 
So following from this, shouldn't any event that a character in the 616 remembers experiencing be listed? Let's look at jeph's first example of the time traveling Spider-man. 

"Example 1: 
Spider-Man's wife is killed in issue #100. He time-travels to the past in #101, and saves her in #102. He then time-travels back to the present in #102, and is elated to discover that the present has been changed. He is the only one who remembers her death. " 

So in this example, even though the events of issue #101 were erased from everyone else's time-line, we would still list issue #101 for Spider-Man, right? Because his character experienced these events even though MJ's character did not experience them. 

I guess my question is just about MCP policy as it stands now. This is what I've gathered from the conversation thus far: If a Handbook says it happens, we list it (such as with UX #190-191). If the universe was reverted, not because of time travel, thus implying that events DID happen, even if only a few remember them, (such as in Infinity Gauntlet) then we DO list them. 
But what about for the events that started this conversation, Bug#1-4? Even though in 616 the events depicted never happened, Bug remembers experiencing them, much like Cable remembers the Askani future. And we list his Askani appearances, so wouldn't it make sense to list Bug#1-4, even if only for Bug and anyone else who recalls the experiences? 

I think one interesting thing is that characters can be aware of future timelines even if they never come to pass. For example, even though DoFP theoretically never happens, people are aware that it is a possible alternate timeline. So do we list the experiences those characters had that gave them an awareness of the alternate timeline? Do we list Kitty's experiences in DoFP? What about X-Man's experiences in AoA? 

Moving off of this, how are we handling Weapon X, Days of Future Now? This seemed to set up a time LOOP, which is even more confusing. It seemed to me like at the end it was implying that the 616 John Sublime is not only aware of but actually experienced all of the events depicted in this mini-series. So for his chronology, do we list these as happening BEFORE his appearances in Weapon X and X-Men? Even though the events themselves may never come to pass in 616 chronology, his character has clear memories of experiencing them (much like Cable in the Askani future.) 

Here's another example. FF 501-502. Johnny and Reed go back to when Victor was a teenager. They interact with the timeline (Reed shoots at Victor) and then return to their time. My question is whether or not this counts as an experience for the 616 Victor Von Doom. Has the 616 Doom grown up with a memory of this experience? Did the memory pop up in his head in the "present" when Johnny and Reed went back in time? Or did they create an alternate reality when they went back in time? As far as listings are concerned this only has the small effect of deciding whether or not to list FF501-502 in Doom's early chronology, but it's an interesting question that could have implications in further examples. 

I have opinions of my own about how all of these events SHOULD be listed, but am more interested in knowing OFFICIAL MCP policy.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:30 pm   
By stavesacre79

Another thought just came to mind. In response to those who compared HOM to Infinity Gauntlet in the sense that there was no time travel, only rearranging, remember that Scarlet Witch changed the entire HISTORY of the universe. Whether or not it was officially "time travel" I have a much more difficult time believing that the events of HOM happened in 616 than believing Infinity Gauntlet happened in 616. But that's just my personal belief. Do we have a policy yet on how we're going to list HOM? Is it being treated as an "alternate reality" that some characters have memories of experiencing? Are we going to list it for EVERYONE or just for those who remember it?

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:50 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
so wouldn't it make sense to list Bug#1-4, even if only for Bug and anyone else who recalls the experiences? 
<<<

Yes it would, IF: 

A) Someone would like to provide us with an analysis of Bug #1. 

B) If there were a Bug #2-4.

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 12:03 am    
By Col_Fury

stavesacre79 wrote: 
>>>
remember that Scarlet Witch changed the entire HISTORY of the universe.  
<<<

I thought it was explained that she didn't change history, she just used Professor X's telepathy to give everyone a false memory of how the world is/was/whatever. Then, she altered the present reality with her own powers. If she had altered the past, the characters wouldn't have had a 'real' history to remember... 

At least, that's my understanding of it. 

stavesacre79 wrote: 
>>>
Are we going to list it for EVERYONE or just for those who remember it? 
<<<

I would say list it for everyone that appeared in the books. I don't remember seeing Gabe Jones or Jimmy Woo in any of the HoM tie-ins, so they wouldn't get listed.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 01:29 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
remember that Scarlet Witch changed the entire HISTORY of the universe. 
<<<

I thought it was explained that she didn't change history, she just used Professor X's telepathy to give everyone a false memory of how the world is/was/whatever. Then, she altered the present reality with her own powers. 
<<<

That's the way I interpreted it too. 


Quote: 
>>>
If she had altered the past, the characters wouldn't have had a 'real' history to remember... 
<<<

Exactly. 


Quote: 
>>>
Are we going to list it for EVERYONE or just for those who remember it? 
<<<

Everyone who appeared -- regardless of whether or not they remember it. 


Quote: 
>>>
when MCP lists events, it lists them in the order the character EXPERIENCES them, correct? 
<<<

Correct. 


Quote: 
>>>
Let's look at jeph's first example of the time traveling Spider-man. 

Quote: 
>>>
Spider-Man's wife is killed in issue #100. He time-travels to the past in #101, and saves her in #102. He then time-travels back to the present in #102, and is elated to discover that the present has been changed. He is the only one who remembers her death. 
<<<

So in this example, even though the events of issue #101 were erased from everyone else's time-line, we would still list issue #101 for Spider-Man, right? Because his character experienced these events even though MJ's character did not experience them. 
<<<

Correct! Spidey would be the ONLY character to get a listing for #101. 


Quote: 
>>>
But what about for the events that started this conversation, Bug#1-4? Even though in 616 the events depicted never happened, Bug remembers experiencing them ... so wouldn't it make sense to list Bug#1-4, even if only for Bug and anyone else who recalls the experiences? 
<<<

Well, "Bug" was a one-shot -- but yes, we'd list the entire issue in his chronology. But we *wouldn't*, for example, list Black Bolt's appearance in the past in this issue, shooing away Bug -- because Bug erased his trip through time, therefore he erased Black Bolt's shooing him. 


Quote: 
>>>
Do we list Kitty's experiences in DoFP? What about X-Man's experiences in AoA? 
<<<

If by "Kitty" you mean the teenage Kitty Pryde, who was briefly *sent* to the DoFP future -- then yes, we list the sequences she appeared in even though they occur in an alternate future. However, we treat appearances of her future self from that timeline as a different character -- we wouldn't list it in "our" Kitty's chronology. 

And yes, X-Man would get his AoA appearances listed. I think they already are, in fact. 


Quote: 
>>>
how are we handling Weapon X, Days of Future Now? This seemed to set up a time LOOP, which is even more confusing. 
<<<

Yeah, that's a weird mess. The time loop is basically unworkable -- the Sublime organism from an alternate future infects John Sublime in the past -- and since John Sublime IS Sublime, it's now a doubled entity -- present and future selves sharing the same body. Does that mean that every time we saw John Sublime in the comics, from X '01-on, it was a doubled entity? And if so, did BOTH Sublimes live into the DOFN future, then travel back in time to infect John Sublime in the past -- making him a TRIPLED entity? And was he a tripled entity every time we saw him in the comics from X '01-on ... etc etc etc, until we reach infinity. Did an infinite number of time-looped Sublimes, merged into one entity, infect John Sublime in the past? For chronology purposes, I sure as hell hope not. 

I can see two other good ways of dealing with it: 

1) Assume that, the instant the Sublime organism from the future infected John Sublime of the past, a divergent timeline was created. (That new timeline is NOT the MU, however -- the MU timeline continued on as normal, with only one Sublime.) In that divergent timeline, the doubled entity lived on, but future events played out differently and that doubled entity did NOT have the need to travel back in time AGAIN and infect itself. The time-loop stops, with one divergent timeline created. 

(Technically, if a divergent timeline WAS created, it would have been created by Wolverine's time-travelling -- not when Sublime showed up in the past minutes later.) 

2) Assume that, in the closing pages of WX:DOFN, the Sublime organism from the future didn't actually INFECT John Sublime of the past -- it just passed on information, then died. Meaning, now John Sublime KNOWS what will happen in the future -- but he hasn't actually got a future version of himself living inside of him. 

(OR, assume that Sublime of the future DID infect John Sublime of the past, but he left him at some point between then and X '01, the first time we see John Sublime. Or, assume he was simply subsumed and absorbed by John Sublime of the past, and ceased to exist as a separate character.) 

Both scenarios above would mean that the Sublime of the future would be considered an alternate-future-ONLY character -- if we listed him at all, his "first" appearance as a separate character from the 616 Sublime would be WX:DOFN #1, and his LAST appearance would be WX:DOFN #5. Whether his time-travel created a divergent timeline, or he left John Sublime's body at some later point, or he never actually entered it, or he was subsumed by John Sublime -- his chronology does NOT continue into the 616 John Sublime's, and we do NOT assume that he appears BTS in the 616 John Sublime's body in any of John's other appearances, from X'01-up. 

Wow, that was a lot more than I intended to write. Sorry. Long story short, even though the book is IMPLYING a permanent time-loop for Sublime, it doesn't make a great deal of sense -- and for chronology purposes, I think it's safer to assume that Sublime only doubled up with himself briefly -- not permanently. 

My head hurts again. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 02:02 am    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If I needed to rationalize the Index's decision for myself, I would say that Strange and Magik's spell did NOT cause time to literally be rolled back, but instead caused every person, place and thing to revert to the status quo it held just prior to Kulan Gath's spell. Similar to the way Nebula ordered the universe to revert to its status quo of 24 hours previous in "Infinity Gauntlet", the events occured but were erased by resetting the present -- not erased by travelling to the past. And therefore, in BOTH cases (IG and UX), Doctor Strange and certain others remember the events as having occured -- because they did. 
<<<

This is my interpretation of both of these stories as well. In neither story is the past altered; instead, the reality of the present is altered as if a different past had occurred. This would also be the case with HoM if Wanda had actually altered the past, rather than other characters' perceptions of it. 

-Sean

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 06:21 am    
By jannepie

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
A) Someone would like to provide us with an analysis of Bug #1. 
<<<

I can do it once I find the time.

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 12:14 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

stavesacre79 wrote: 
>>>
Here's another example. FF 501-502. Johnny and Reed go back to when Victor was a teenager. They interact with the timeline (Reed shoots at Victor) and then return to their time. My question is whether or not this counts as an experience for the 616 Victor Von Doom. Has the 616 Doom grown up with a memory of this experience? Did the memory pop up in his head in the "present" when Johnny and Reed went back in time? Or did they create an alternate reality when they went back in time? As far as listings are concerned this only has the small effect of deciding whether or not to list FF501-502 in Doom's early chronology, but it's an interesting question that could have implications in further examples. 
<<<

Don't get hung up on whether a character "remembers' events in these time travel/alternate timeline stories. If someone was asleep for their entire appearance, and yet the timeline didn't get wiped out, and we adjudge it's the 616 version of the character, they'd still get a listing, regardless of their memories. 


watching: adventures in babysitting

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 01:36 pm    
By stavesacre79

Sorry I thought Bug was a 4 part mini-series. I don't know what I was thinking  

Anyways, I went back and re-read some of House of M, and I agree now that Wanda didn't actually change the past, just everyone's memories. 

As far as the Sublime time loop... well... that's a whole other can of worms. The way I read Days of Future Now (especially while keeping X-Men 151-154 in mind) is that the John Sublime we've been seeing in the 616 has this entire time been controlled by the strange bacteria that calls itself John Sublime, and that this entire time it has been acting based upon the knowledge that it gained from living through Days of Future Now and then time-traveling back into the past (well, his past. Our "present".) 
We COULD write it off as giving Dr. Sublime the memories and then disappearing or any of jeph's other solutions, but I think that wouldn't reflect the intentions of the comic. I think (mind you, this is just my opinion) that Frank Tieri intended Weapon X: Days of Future Now pages 18-19, & 21-24 to be what actually happened in the 616. Thus, we would simply list the events depicted in the alternate future of DoFN as happening BEFORE John Sublime's first appearance in X '01. 
... ... ... 
Okay, as soon as I wrote that I realized the problem with it. Technically, the bacteria experienced everything he did in the 616 BEFORE he experienced the DoFN divergent timeline, so listing DoFN first doesn't actually work... thus the infinite loop and the problem. 

So where exactly to list these apperances would be difficult, but I do believe that the events that happened in DoFN should be listed as appearances for John Sublime (or at least his bacterial counterpart...) because his 616 self experienced them. What does everyone else think?

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Posted: 09 Jan 2006 01:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I think (mind you, this is just my opinion) that Frank Tieri intended Weapon X: Days of Future Now pages 18-19, & 21-24 to be what actually happened in the 616. 
<<<

I agree. 

In fact -- there was a puzzling line way back in W2 #166 where Director Malcolm Colcord revealed his origin -- he claimed that, as Wolverine was breaking out of the Weapon X compound, he brutalized the Director, and deliberately took his time mangling Colcord's face. That line had always stuck in my head, because it seemed out of character for the berserker state Wolvie was in at the time. 

Although I doubt that Frank Tieri had that in mind when he wrote WX:DOFN #5, that actually WAS the way events played out there. Past-Wolvie was about to attack past-Colcord, he was taken over by future-Wolvie and walked away -- then he was taken over by future-Sublime, turned back and deliberately mangled Colcord's face. 

It seemed like a neat synchronicity, having Tieri's final WX arc explain the one aspect that puzzled me about his first. And I hope the sequence ends up getting put into the MCP as 616 canon.  


Quote: 
>>>
Okay, as soon as I wrote that I realized the problem with it. 
<<<

Good, because it's really hard to put into words and I didn't want to have to try again.  


Quote: 
>>>
I do believe that the events that happened in DoFN should be listed as appearances for John Sublime (or at least his bacterial counterpart...) because his 616 self experienced them. 
<<<

Well, no. His future self experienced them, then his future self came back in time and entered his past-self ... then we don't know WHAT happened. 

If by "his 616 self experienced them", you're trying to say that since he remembers the events, we should list him as having appeared there ... no. His past-self may have been given the MEMORIES of the DoFN future, but he didn't live through them himself. Jean Grey has (had) all the memories of the Phoenix Force and Madelyne Pryor, but they're still different characters. 

And if by "his 616 self experienced them" you're trying to say that future-Sublime was a part of the 616-Sublime every time we saw him in previous issues ... well, we don't know that for sure either. It doesn't make sense that his future self stayed inside his past self *forever* -- we both agree that that causes a time-loop and is unworkable (and lame). Therefore his future self must have left his past self at SOME point. And since we don't know what that point IS, we can't assume with certainty that his future self was a part of his past self in any of the previous times we've seen him, from X '01-onwards. 

And since we can't determine with certainty that he was there, we can't list him. Therefore, the present-day, 616 version of Sublime/John Sublime should have a final appearance of WX2 25. 

As a matter of fact, this is the SECOND alternate future we've seen for Sublime. If we tracked them both, their chronologies should, in part, look like this: 

SUBLIME / "JOHN SUBLIME" 
X 154-FB (origin) 
WX:DOFN 5 (inhabited by a Sublime from an alternate future, given memories of what is to come) 
X '01 (first app., unknown if future-Sublime is still in him) 
X-Men appearances (through X 150-BTS, controlling Xorneto) 
WX2 appearances 
(the end) 

FUTURE SUBLIME 1 (timeline diverges at X 151) 
X 154-FB (takes over the Beast's body) 
X 151-154 
(dies) 

FUTURE SUBLIME 2 (timeline diverges at HoM) 
WX:DOFN 1 (takes over Fantomex's body) 
WX:DOFN 5 (travels back in time, inhabits Sublime from the past, gives him memories of what is to come) 
(the end, unknown how long he stays inside past-Sublime) 

Deciding to go the "we can't PROVE he stayed inside past-Sublime so we shouldn't list him there" is probably the safest and simplest way to go here. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 32

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 07:02 pm    Post subject: H2 148 additions
By Dhall

Lord Visis (new listing) 
H2 140 
H2 148 
H2 156 

Torla (new listing) 
H2 140 
H2 148 
H2 156 

Yellowjacket 
A 99 
A 100 
**H2 148-BTS 
H2 154-FB 
H2 151-BTS 
H2 154 
H2 155-FB

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Thread 33

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 07:03 pm    Post subject: AGNEW, SPIRO T.
By Dhall

AGNEW, SPIRO T. 
**FF 123 
H2 147 
H2 152

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Thread 34

Posted: 06 Jan 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject: Captain America #13
By Kevin W.
Director

Have we decided where this story arc goes on the timeline yet? Because it really does read as if it wants to be before New Avengers #1. 

In this latest issue, Falcon and Captain America go to take down the Kronas facility where the bad guys are keeping the Cosmic Cube. Falcon tells Cap. America that it's a bad idea not to get Iron Man to come along on the mission with them. So if Iron Man can't come, then why not call in the New Avengers?? The way it reads, it sounds like the New Avengers aren't around yet for Steve to call upon.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 08:18 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Have we decided where this story arc goes on the timeline yet? Because it really does read as if it wants to be before New Avengers #1. 
<<<


I now have the entirety of CA5 (from issue #1 on) after A4 15. (This is another one of those post-Raft Fury-in-SHIELD instances.) The HOM crossover issue falls in its proper sequence, in the middle of the Winter Soldier arc. 


Quote: 
>>>
So if Iron Man can't come, then why not call in the New Avengers??  
<<<

Cap's not quite at his peak mentally in this story arc. The whole Bucky thing has him shaken up and he may be taking this mission a bit too personally. How many times in Marvel history have we had the hero decide to go it alone because it's "his" fight, despite the strategic flaw in that decision? Or, for all we know, he may have tried to contact other Avengers off-panel but they were busy with other important things or couldn't be reached for some reason. I'm not worrying too much about it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 12:28 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, but I just want to double check: Is the only thing tying this story arc down to this point on the calender the HoM crossover in CA5 #10?? Or are there other clues?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 12:44 pm    
By Col_Fury

Here's a conversation from issue 13 that seems to suggest this takes place after Fury returns from Secret War: 

Sharon: You should have called me sooner. 

Steve: So Fury can get tied up in red tape again? No thanks. 

Now, Fury gets tied up in red tape all the time, but there it is. 

Also, the recent Most Wanted one-shot says that Crossbones escaped the Raft and then was hired by the Red Skull. The Red Skull dies in CA5 #1, and Crossbones escaped the Raft in A4 #1-3. So if CA5 #1 is after A4 #1-3, we're pretty well screwed if Fury isn't reinstated in A4 15.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 06:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Also, the recent Most Wanted one-shot says that Crossbones escaped the Raft and then was hired by the Red Skull. The Red Skull dies in CA5 #1, and Crossbones escaped the Raft in A4 #1-3. So if CA5 #1 is after A4 #1-3, we're pretty well screwed if Fury isn't reinstated in A4 15. 
<<<

Yes, it was Most Wanted that tipped the scales for me. I used to have the Winter Soldier arc way back before SECWAR...heck, even before Enemy of the State. That placement was starting to crack; the HOM crossover threw things in doubt, then Most Wanted administered the coup-de-grace. And with Fury appearing so many places post-Raft already, I figured...why not add more appearances? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 06:04 pm    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Now, Fury gets tied up in red tape all the time, but there it is.  
<<<

Yep. Hell, Scorpion: Poison Tomorrow makes mention in the narration that the Helicarrier is the most expensive buck-passing excercise in history (no country wanted to take the risk of being the HQ). SHIELD is one big red-tape mountain.

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 07:22 pm    
By Somebody

Aaaaaand here we are: 

Ed Brubaker wrote: 
>>>
Yeah, I am working the Fury stuff Brian did into the series. The first 14 issues took place over a month of story-time, at the most, ***and we're skipping ahead in time between 14 and 16, to catch up to the New Avengers continuity***. Not that I'll be dealing with it a lot, but time will have passed. (link) 
<<<

Emphasis mine, thank you and goodnight 

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 07:55 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Aha! I knew that the current issues of Captain America were being written as if they occur before New Avengers!!! Which means the Fury shown here is prior to him going into hiding in Secret War #5.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Jan 2006 09:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Ed Brubaker wrote: 
Yeah, I am working the Fury stuff Brian did into the series. The first 14 issues took place over a month of story-time, at the most, and we're skipping ahead in time between 14 and 16, to catch up to the New Avengers continuity. Not that I'll be dealing with it a lot, but time will have passed. 
<<<


Yup, I have the first 14 issues occurring in just under a month. But to have SECWAR and A4 follow this...hmm. Apparently Brubaker's not talking to Youngquist. Or maybe Gail Runciter has her sequence wrong...  

Now I need to look at throwing the whole Winter Soldier arc back where I had it...before Enemy of the State and not long after A:FINALE (with the original interpretation of Sharon's comment about Steve's rough couple of months). Sigh... 

But wait...maybe there's another reason to keep all of CA5 after A4 14 -- Crossbones' chronology. And I'm not just talking about MOST WANTED. Brubaker seems to suggest that Crossbones will be in the Raft between CA5 14 and CA5 16 -- in the middle of the subplot involving him and Sin. This subplot was introduced during the Winter Soldier arc (CA5 9) and will resurface in CA5 16. So Crossbones being in the Raft in the middle of this subplot will need to make sense, and Sin will need to be occupied somehow during Crossbones' incarceration.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 35

Posted: 25 Feb 2005 05:59 pm    Post subject: Ravonna; where in Avengers#200?
By Enda80

Where is Ravonna in Avengers#200? It says she is in a fb.

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Posted: 25 Feb 2005 07:25 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Where is Ravonna in Avengers#200? It says she is in a fb. 
<<<

That notation comes from the Official Avengers Index. Perhaps they were saying that Ravonna was the wife of Immortus, and the mother of Marcus Immortus. 


watching: friends

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Posted: 26 Feb 2005 12:17 pm    
By John Simons

Not sure where they came up with that. There's nothing in that comic or any subsequent comics to support it.

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Posted: 26 Feb 2005 01:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The support is in the Official Index, though. Just as with the Official Handbook, canon information can come from the Official Index, unless it's contradicted by the stories. 


watching: kentucky vs. alabama

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Posted: 26 Feb 2005 01:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

And on rare occasion, the Index is correct even though the story contradicts it. Tigra appears in A@ 18, but Avengers Index v2 #6 omits that appearance. Why? Because Tigra's inclusion in that issue was a mistake that Marvel editors admitted shortly after A@ 18 was published.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Feb 2005 06:10 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Ravonna isn't in A 200, and she isn't Marcus's mother either; his mother is a different woman from a different Earth, as seen on pages 31-32 of A 200. I believe that Ravonna (or an alternate version of her) was the mother of the Marcus seen in the Terminatrix Objective miniseries, but that wan't the same Marcus who raped Carol Danvers. Flashbacks during the Kang War confirmed that there are several dozen (not sure of the exact numbers) Marcuses fathered by Kang alone, not counting the one or more Marcuses fathered by Immortus. 

On a vaguely similar note, the "flashback" in ICE 4 listed in Iceman's chronology is just a dialogue reference to something that occured in the past. No actual flashback. 

If there's no on-panel appearance of the character, and no scene depicted in which the character would be considered BTS, should the MCP be including that "appearance" in the character's chronology just because the Index says that it is an appearance? 

-Sean

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Posted: 26 Feb 2005 06:18 pm    
By Dhall

>>>
If there's no on-panel appearance of the character, and no scene depicted in which the character would be considered BTS, should the MCP be including that "appearance" in the character's chronology just because the Index says that it is an appearance?
<<<

I have a problem with resorting to the argument thar character X must make an appearance here at this point in their chronology because the index says they do. I would call this a clear mistake. It's been wrong before, hence the errata section in the index.... 


>>>
And on rare occasion, the Index is correct even though the story contradicts it. Tigra appears in A@ 18, but Avengers Index v2 #6 omits that appearance. Why? Because Tigra's inclusion in that issue was a mistake that Marvel editors admitted shortly after A@ 18 was published.
<<<

Hmmn..It's not the index that makes it so, it was the editors admitting they messed upm that makes Tigra not appear in A @18.

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Posted: 26 Feb 2005 06:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I have a problem with resorting to the argument thar character X must make an appearance here at this point in their chronology because the index says they do. 
<<<

I'm not sure why you'd have a problem with this, the way you've stated it. If you stand by it, then I disagree. I have no problem with saying "character X must make an appearance here at this point in their chronology because the index says they do," unless there's in-book evidence to contradict it. No one here has suggested that we ignore evidence in the stories, in favor of the Index, nor has anyone ever claimed the Indexes were infallible. 

All I'm saying is that Ravonna's listing includes Avengers 200, because the Index says she's there, and the only person I can see that it could be talking about is the woman that Immortus rescues. If there's in-story evidence that it's someone other than Ravonna--or perhaps there's another character that I've overlooked in a brief scan of the issue--let's consider saying that the Index is mistaken. Otherwise, it just boils down to "Well, I don't like that." 


watching: jeopardy

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Posted: 27 Feb 2005 12:31 am    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
All I'm saying is that Ravonna's listing includes Avengers 200, because the Index says she's there, and the only person I can see that it could be talking about is the woman that Immortus rescues. If there's in-story evidence that it's someone other than Ravonna--or perhaps there's another character that I've overlooked in a brief scan of the issue--let's consider saying that the Index is mistaken. Otherwise, it just boils down to "Well, I don't like that." 
<<<

The woman who Immortus rescues isn't Ravonna - I can't see how the Index could come to such a conclusion. She doesn't look anything like Ravonna and her home timeline doesn't look anything like Ravonna's world. The flashback, narrated by Marcus, says that she was brought from her own timeline, where she was about to drown in a shipwreck, and that she later returned to her native time. There's no way to reconcile the idea that Ravonna was Marcus's mother with the flashback in A 200. If a later story that I'm unaware of came out and said that that particular Marcus was the son of Ravonna, that throws the narration and therefore the entire flashback into doubt. 

Marcus's mother might theoretically have been an alternate timeline counterpart of Ravonna (though nothing in A 200 suggests that), but that would only put A 200-FB in the Ravonna alternate's chronology, not in Ravonna's own chronology. 

-Sean

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Posted: 27 Feb 2005 02:46 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
The woman who Immortus rescues isn't Ravonna - I can't see how the Index could come to such a conclusion. She doesn't look anything like Ravonna and her home timeline doesn't look anything like Ravonna's world. 
<<<

Huh? You can tell that from the flashback in A 200? It consists of two panels, both showing the open sea. Unless there's no ocean on "Ravonna's world", I don't see where that comes from. 

But I'm not sure what your true contention is. When you say that "The woman who Immortus rescues isn't Ravonna - I can't see how the Index could come to such a conclusion", are you saying that I'm mistaken, and that the Index is referring to some other character, or are you saying that the Index is mistaken? 

Or is it possible that the Index mistakenly omitted the words "behind the scenes" from its listing of Ravonna in A 200? Does anyone care to go through Ravonna's appearances subsequent to A 200, to see if there's any indication that she might have been affecting things in A 200, without actually appearing there? 


watching: angel

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Posted: 27 Feb 2005 04:43 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Huh? You can tell that from the flashback in A 200? It consists of two panels, both showing the open sea. Unless there's no ocean on "Ravonna's world", I don't see where that comes from. 
<<<

That conclusion is mainly drawn from the woman's appearance there and on the next page; we've never seen anybody on Ravonna's world dress like that. To the best of my knowledge, we've only ever seen them wearing sci-fi spandex-type outfits, whereas the woman seen in the flashback looks like she's wearing a turn of the century outfit. 


Quote: 
>>>
But I'm not sure what your true contention is. When you say that "The woman who Immortus rescues isn't Ravonna - I can't see how the Index could come to such a conclusion", are you saying that I'm mistaken, and that the Index is referring to some other character, or are you saying that the Index is mistaken? 
<<<

I believe that the Index is mistaken in saying that Ravonna appears here. 


Quote: 
>>>
Or is it possible that the Index mistakenly omitted the words "behind the scenes" from its listing of Ravonna in A 200? Does anyone care to go through Ravonna's appearances subsequent to A 200, to see if there's any indication that she might have been affecting things in A 200, without actually appearing there? 
<<<

That's entirely possible. Avengers Annual 21 or Terminatrix Objective might offer some evidence in that regard. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2005 10:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
The woman who Immortus rescues isn't Ravonna - I can't see how the Index could come to such a conclusion. She doesn't look anything like Ravonna 
<<<

In fact, she does bear a marked resemblance to Terminatrix (see Avengers: Terminatrix Objective). 


watching: sue storm letting her hair down for the first time

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2005 11:41 pm    
By Jim Smith

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
The woman who Immortus rescues isn't Ravonna - I can't see how the Index could come to such a conclusion. She doesn't look anything like Ravonna 
<<<

In fact, she does bear a marked resemblance to Terminatrix (see Avengers: Terminatrix Objective). 
<<<

I think what's more relevant here is that the flashback in A 200 clearly depicts 19th-20th century ship sinking in the background on what is presumably meant to be the Earth of our past. The clothing the blonde woman is wearing looks like something from the turn of the century rather than Ravonna's world--she has a parasol on page 32, for pete's sake. 

Then there's Marcus's account of Immortus's affair with this woman--he scanned the timestream for a person doomed to die, and plucked her from her peril. We don't know if the woman "was not destined to survive" the shipwreck Immortus rescues her from or some later event. But it seems like Immortus's goal here is to disrupt the timestream as little as possible by spiriting away a woman moments before her fated death, so that history won't miss her. Ravonna, so far as we know, was never fated (or nearly fated) to die in a shipwreck. 

I really think the Index is in error here--my best guess is that it was simply assumed that since Immortus is an older version of Kang then Ravonna would logically be the mother of his son. But that just doesn't fit what we see in A 200. If Immortus wanted to have a child by Ravonna, he could just grab Ravonna from the 40th century, rather than waiting for some untold tale in which Ravonna travels to turn-of-the-century Earth and gets in a shipwreck. Marcus's account suggests that he chooses Marcus's mother on the spur of the moment, the moment he stumbles upon her--he's not looking for Ravonna or any other woman in particular. I also find it notable that Marcus never refers to his mother's name. He mentions his father's name because he knows the Avengers have met Immortus, but he seems to be assuming that the Avengers wouldn't know his mother from anywhere. 

The only way this can be Ravonna is if we assume that she's wearing anachronistic clothing in her own 40th century timeframe or on some jaunt to Earth's past. (I suppose this could be Terminatrix during her courtship of Kang in 1900 after the end of Terminatrix Objective, but as Terminatrix Ravonna would have the ability to save herself from the shipwreck with a time-jump.) The only reason to even assume it's Ravonna is because the Index says so and because she has the same hair color as Terminatrix. 

Russ, your reasoning here seems to be that Marvel published the Index that says Ravonna appeared in A 200; therefore Marvel intends for Ravonna to be in A 200. I don't see any indication of that intent in the issue itself--if Marvel had wanted this to be Ravonna back in 1980, they would have just said so in the dialogue. So your assumption seems to be that Marvel decided years later to establish that Marcus's mother was Ravonna, and to present this retcon in the Marvel Index. That's what this comes down to--either the Index's statement is in error or has Marvel's blessing and should be treated as canon. 

My question then, is why would Marvel intend for Marcus's mother to be Ravonna? I don't know of any story that makes use of this, nor can I think of any reason why Marvel would decide to establish this years after the original story. Introducing it doesn't necessarily contradict anything (we can jump through hoops to make it fit), but it doesn't really contribute anything either. It's just there--"Ravonna is in A 200"--with no underlying motive except to make it so. If we can't figure out why Marvel meant for the Index to say this, shouldn't we then assume that they didn't mean it, and that the Index goofed here?

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Mar 2005 12:12 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
Russ, your reasoning here seems to be that Marvel published the Index that says Ravonna appeared in A 200; therefore Marvel intends for Ravonna to be in A 200. I don't see any indication of that intent in the issue itself--if Marvel had wanted this to be Ravonna back in 1980, they would have just said so in the dialogue. So your assumption seems to be that Marvel decided years later to establish that Marcus's mother was Ravonna, and to present this retcon in the Marvel Index. 
<<<

Well, seeing as how it's the Official Index, what would your assumption be? Forget about the rightness or wrongness. I can assume the Index is wrong, if you want me to. But what would be your assumption about Marvel's "decision"? It's not like Murray Ward was trying to "sneak one by" Marvel editorial. This isn't a typo. They didn't say "Avengers #200" when they meant to say something else. They didn't mistakenly type "Ravonna" for "Revenna", or anything else, so what assumptions can you make? 


Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
That's what this comes down to--either the Index's statement is in error or has Marvel's blessing and should be treated as canon. 
<<<

Why? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why couldn't it have had Marvel's blessing at the time, and still be in error? 


Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
My question then, is why would Marvel intend for Marcus's mother to be Ravonna? I don't know of any story that makes use of this, nor can I think of any reason why Marvel would decide to establish this years after the original story. Introducing it doesn't necessarily contradict anything (we can jump through hoops to make it fit), but it doesn't really contribute anything either. It's just there--"Ravonna is in A 200"--with no underlying motive except to make it so. If we can't figure out why Marvel meant for the Index to say this, shouldn't we then assume that they didn't mean it, and that the Index goofed here? 
<<<

The question of why Marvel would do it is out of left field, as I'm not privy to Marvel's editorial meetings. Remember the discussion we had here last month about the new interpretation of events in Avengers #16, provided by Marvel Saga? Why would Marvel tell us in Marvel Saga that Captain America had asked for a private meeting with the original Avengers, which, as Jeph proposed, would remove the behind-the-scenes listings for Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye? "I don't know of any story that makes use of this, nor can I think of any reason why Marvel would decide to establish this years after the original story." 

There are dozens of bits of information contained in the Official Handbooks that aren't backed up by anything in the stories. Do we accept them? Or do we reject them, because we can't understand why Marvel did it? 

{EDIT}Now, having said all that, there is a legitimate explanation for why the Official Index would say that, but no one's mentioned it. The Directors may be the only ones who might have caught on it to it...{END EDIT} 


watching: summer rental

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Posted: 01 Mar 2005 04:29 am    
By Jim Smith

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Forget about the rightness or wrongness. I can assume the Index is wrong, if you want me to. But what would be your assumption about Marvel's "decision"? It's not like Murray Ward was trying to "sneak one by" Marvel editorial. This isn't a typo. They didn't say "Avengers #200" when they meant to say something else. They didn't mistakenly type "Ravonna" for "Revenna", or anything else, so what assumptions can you make? 
<<<

My assumption is that someone wasn't paying enough attention to the comic, frankly. I mean, I've looked at the issue and don't have the foggiest idea why the Index would report that Ravonna appears in A 200. The only reason we're even considering the possibility is because the Index says so; I can't imagine what gave the Index staff that notion in the first place. 

It's not as if something can't be an error as long as it's spelled correctly and has the word "official" in the title. If the Index declared that Cyclops joined the Avengers in A 20, the fact that it could be Scott Summers dressed as the Swordsman wouldn't alter the fact that it's a completely baseless statement that only makes sense if you really stretch for it. Such a thing is so ludicrous to me, that I would dismiss it unless Marvel went so far as to publish a story affirming it. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
There are dozens of bits of information contained in the Official Handbooks that aren't backed up by anything in the stories. Do we accept them? Or do we reject them, because we can't understand why Marvel did it? 
<<<

Where they contradict common sense? Sure. I'm all for the handbooks and indexes and guides and so on building upon the canon of the actual comics. But when they introduce a detail that doesn't fit with the actual stories, and don't serve any purpose, I'm perfectly willing to ignore them. 

Now, if I learn that Marvel has published a story about Ravonna being Marcus's mother, I'll do an about-face. It's their prerogative to change details about prior stories so they can tell further stories. But if they don't follow through with the stories that use those changes, what's the point in acknowledging the changes? If Marvel publishes a Handbook that says Tony Stark is gay, and then never ever publishes an actual story about gay Tony Stark, why should we worry about the line in the Handbook says? 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
{EDIT}Now, having said all that, there is a legitimate explanation for why the Official Index would say that, but no one's mentioned it. The Directors may be the only ones who might have caught on it to it...{END EDIT} 
<<<

I don't have a clue, myself. If you feel like sharing, I'd take it into account in this discussion.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Mar 2005 09:11 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
It's not as if something can't be an error as long as it's spelled correctly and has the word "official" in the title. 
<<<

That's not what I said, and I have to wonder if you don't know it. No one said that's the only way Marvel could make an error. When you said in your previous reply that I was assuming that it was Marvel's intent to say that Ravonna was Marcus's mother, I said that it was a proper assumption to make, even if Marvel was in error, in doing so. So again I ask, what do you think Marvel's intent was, when they said Ravonna appears in Avengers #200, in flashback? Drop the issue of whether they were mistaken. What was their intent in saying it? What did they mean to say? Unless it's a typo, bringing up the issue of their intent is irrelevant. We're concerned with what they said. 


Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
If the Index declared that Cyclops joined the Avengers in A 20, the fact that it could be Scott Summers dressed as the Swordsman wouldn't alter the fact that it's a completely baseless statement that only makes sense if you really stretch for it. Such a thing is so ludicrous to me, that I would dismiss it unless Marvel went so far as to publish a story affirming it. 
<<<

I don't care about baseless statements. There are many more instances in Marvel history that you'd have to stretch waaay further than that to make sense of them, and yet they're true. In your example, we would reject it, because there's in-story evidence to contradict it. 


Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
There are dozens of bits of information contained in the Official Handbooks that aren't backed up by anything in the stories. Do we accept them? Or do we reject them, because we can't understand why Marvel did it? 
<<<

Where they contradict common sense? Sure. I'm all for the handbooks and indexes and guides and so on building upon the canon of the actual comics. But when they introduce a detail that doesn't fit with the actual stories, and don't serve any purpose, I'm perfectly willing to ignore them. 

Now, if I learn that Marvel has published a story about Ravonna being Marcus's mother, I'll do an about-face. It's their prerogative to change details about prior stories so they can tell further stories. But if they don't follow through with the stories that use those changes, what's the point in acknowledging the changes? If Marvel publishes a Handbook that says Tony Stark is gay, and then never ever publishes an actual story about gay Tony Stark, why should we worry about the line in the Handbook says? 
<<<

We wouldn't, because that has nothing to do with chronology. But if the Handbook mentioned that Tony Stark provided Reed Richards with some equipment to battle Galactus, you'd better believe that we'd have dozens of people here, barking for a bts notation for Iron Man in FF 50. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 01 Mar 2005 10:11 am    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
So again I ask, what do you think Marvel's intent was, when they said Ravonna appears in Avengers #200, in flashback? Drop the issue of whether they were mistaken. What was their intent in saying it? What did they mean to say? Unless it's a typo, bringing up the issue of their intent is irrelevant. We're concerned with what they said. 
<<<

There's several possibilities that I can think of: 

1) It was an error and wasn't supposed to be included at all. 
2) It was an error: someone at Marvel thought that Ravonna was depicted as Marcus's mother or was otherwise seen in flashback. 
3) Someone at Marvel decided that Marcus's mother was actually Ravonna. 
4) Someone at Marvel decided that Ravonna was otherwise present in that flashback. 

Short of asking the Index's writer or editor what this meant, we have no way of knowing which of these (if any) is correct. 

Does the Index entry on A 200 mention Ravonna at all, or is she only listed among the character appearances? 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Mar 2005 12:56 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Does the Index entry on A 200 mention Ravonna at all, or is she only listed among the character appearances? 
<<<

Good question. Let's see what we can glean. If by "Index entry", you mean plot synopsis, no, they don't, but in that version of the Index, the synopses were limited to one paragraph, so expecting an explanation of a three-panel flashback in a giant-size story (one with no dialog) would probably be unrealistic. 

They do mention three separate flashbacks: "Marcus is conceived and born in Limbo; Immortus vanishes from Limbo; Marcus abducts and romances Ms. Marvel." 

In character listings, we find: 

Quote: 
>>>
Immortus (last in Avengers Annual #21/4; in flashback; next in Avengers: The Terminatrix Objective #2) 

Ravonna Lexus Renslayer II (last in Avengers Annual #21/4; in flashback; next in Avengers: The Terminatrix Objective #3) 
<<<

Note the "II". Assuming I'm using the same notation as the Index--and I'm not sure we can assume that--I've got this appearance under the wrong Ravonna, which might address the contention of the way she looks. Does anyone want to try to sort out all the Ravonnas? The Appendix has already done a lot of work on the subject, it seems. 


watching: news

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Posted: 01 Mar 2005 03:13 pm    
By Jim Smith

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
So again I ask, what do you think Marvel's intent was, when they said Ravonna appears in Avengers #200, in flashback? Drop the issue of whether they were mistaken. What was their intent in saying it? What did they mean to say? Unless it's a typo, bringing up the issue of their intent is irrelevant. We're concerned with what they said. 
<<<

When I've referred to Marvel's intent in saying "Ravonna appears in A 200" in the Index, I've been talking about Marvel's intent in introducing it as a retcon. You seem to think I'm talking about Marvel's intent in simply printing the text itself. 

See, there's two possibilities here. Either Marvel was (rightly or wrongly) assuming that Ravonna really does appear in A 200; or Marvel knew she didn't but chose to introduce a retcon saying she did. 

If the former is true, then I think the Index staff made an honest slip-up and shouldn't be treated as canon simply because it's there. If the latter is true, I think the Index staff was perpetuating an obscure but very official retcon, and it would have to be treated as canon until something contradicts it. What I've been saying, though, is that I find the latter extremely unlikely, given the lack of further development of this plot point. 

This is what I mean when I say that Marvel either made a mistake in the Index or was trying to, in the Index, retroactively place Ravonna in A 200. Technically those are not the only two possibilities. It's possible the Index has been correct all along and that was always Ravonna in A 200, no retcons necessary. But having looked through the issue I doubt this. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
In your example, we would reject it, because there's in-story evidence to contradict it. 
<<<

There's in-story evidence to contradict Ravonna appearing in A 200. The only otherwise-unidentified woman in the story is Marcus's mother, who's clearly from a timeframe thousands of years before Ravonna's era. Immortus chances upon her while scanning the timestream--he's clearly not looking for someone he knows, let alone an ex-lover. The only way Ravonna can be in the scene is if she's Terminatrix, using her time-travel equipment; but such equipment would save her from her predicament, making her useless to Immortus's search for a woman about to die. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
If Marvel publishes a Handbook that says Tony Stark is gay, and then never ever publishes an actual story about gay Tony Stark, why should we worry about the line in the Handbook says? 
<<<

We wouldn't, because that has nothing to do with chronology. 
<<<

For the purposes of this site we wouldn't worry. But I'd venture to say a lot of people on this board would be posting here to complain about it. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
But if the Handbook mentioned that Tony Stark provided Reed Richards with some equipment to battle Galactus, you'd better believe that we'd have dozens of people here, barking for a bts notation for Iron Man in FF 50. 
<<<

That doesn't really contradict FF 50, though. What if the Handbook said Galactus temporarily transformed Tony into his Punisher robot? There's nothing in the comic to suggest that couldn't have happened, and it's at least as plausible as Ravonna travelling 2,000 years back in time to almost drown.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Mar 2005 01:48 am    
By John Simons

For what it's worth, I believe I have every appearence of all three (yes three!) major alternate versions of Ravonna, and for the life of me I can't see any in-story evidence that Marcus's mother is Ravonna. I realize it's impossible to prove a negative, but I can't even find any reference to the mother beyond the A 200-FB and this version of Marcus never appears again after crumbling to dust in A @10-FB. 

How did Ward come up with this? Unfortunately there's no way to know but I think that Sean's theory makes the most sense: 

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
I believe that Ravonna (or an alternate version of her) was the mother of the Marcus seen in the Terminatrix Objective miniseries, but that wan't the same Marcus who raped Carol Danvers. Flashbacks during the Kang War confirmed that there are several dozen (not sure of the exact numbers) Marcuses fathered by Kang alone, not counting the one or more Marcuses fathered by Immortus. 
<<<

Might Ward have known about the Marcus in Terminatrix Objective and not realized he was a different character than the Marcus who appears in A 200? 


Let me explain: 
In A TO 3, Terminatrix is brought to a certain point in Limbo with several alternate versions of herself, including a frail elderly Ravonna who appears to be at the end of her life. An equally elderly Immortus explains that, "if she looks familiar to you, it is becasue she is your future self..." 

Immortus basically requests that one of the younger Ravonna counterparts agree to euthanize old-Ravonna at the moment when he drops dead of natural causes. Referring to Marcus Immortus, he says, "I cannot do it myself, nor can I ask my son to do it-- kill his own mother!" To which Terminatrix thinks to herself "This twit is my future son? I hope not." 

So if Ward thought the two Marcuses were one person, and there was no story to back it up, perhaps he thought he was filling in a plot hole that didn't actually exist by trying to explain away the woman in A 200-FB. 

As if this weren't confusing enough, later in the issue Marcus refers to Revelation (yet another future incarnation of Terminatrix) as "Matriarch", and in A TO 4, Revelation points Marcus to a climactic Kang-Terminatrix conflict as the moment "where your father and I joined forces at last, making my empire and your birth possible..." What this suggests to me is that Ravonna II is not his actual mother, but nevertheless the fact that she is an alernate version of his mother is what would make it difficult for him to terminate her life. 

So not only would Ward be mistaken in assuming that the Marcus of A:TO is the same as the Marcus of A 200, he also did not read closely if he feels that Ravonna II is his mother, when actually it is Revelation. 

May I make a few quick comments about the current MCP chronologies? 

RAVONNA LEXUS RENSLAYER 

Should not TERMINATRIX and "REBECCA TOURMINET" be added as aliases? 

... 
H2 135 
A@ 21/4-FB 
A 200-FB 
A:TO 3 
A@ 21-FB 
... 

The question of this thread is about A 200-FB, but I'm also puzzled about the references around it. Both Ravonna and Ravonna II appear in A2 21/4, but in the framing story; I can't really see where they appear in the FBs. I also have no idea what the A:TO 3 reference refers to; Terminatrix appears in all four issues, of course, but those issues are already accounted for further down in her chronology. This notation may actually belong with Ravonna II (see below) 

Also-- I know the bulk of AVF was entered into the MCP a while back, any reason why Ravonna's FBs weren't added? 

... 
A@ 22/2 
DHAWK 28-BTS 
**AVF 9- FB (pg15pn5) 
A:TO 1 
A:TO 2 
A:TO 3 
A:TO 4 (pg1-22) 
**AVF 9- FB (pg16pn1) 
A:TO 4 (pg23) 
**AVF 9- FB (pg16pn2-pg21pn1) 
**AVF 3- BTS 

In the first FB listed above, Terminatrix is shown looking over Kang's comatose form, but in a different suit than she is wearing during the "Citizen Kang" annuals. In the second, we see her reviving Kang sometime after stabbing him, but before they travel to 1903 Timely as Victor Timely and Rebecca Tourminet. In the third, we see her by the side of the restless Kang before and after his second assumption of the Rama-Tut identity. Her death is reported in AVF 3, surely that is significant enough to warrant a BTS mention? 

RAVONNA LEXUS RENSLAYER II 
... 
A@ 21/4 
**A:TO 3 

Assuming that the elderly Ravonna is this incarnation (who was last shown as Immortus' consort, after all) this reference probably belongs here, rather than up above in Ravonna I's chronology. 

REVELATION 
A:TO 1 
A:TO 2 
A:TO 3 
**A:TO 4 

Revelation is in the last issue, as well. Also, it is confirmed in this series that she is further branched off from Terminatrix, so an alias to the effect of Ravonna III should probably be added to her listing. 

Although the MCP doesn't currently track when alternate versions of a character branch off, for the record: 
Ravonna II branches off from Ravonna at the end of A 24. 
Revelation branches off from Ravonna at the end of A:TO 4 

I'm not sure if any of this clears things up at all, or just further muddies the whole discussion...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 02 Mar 2005 05:47 am    
By Enda80

Murray Ward's addres is 

[deleted by moderator] 

So we can ask him.

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Posted: 02 Mar 2005 07:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm really not comfortable with posting other people's addresses on a public message board (even if it's a PO Box), although ultimately it's for the Administrator to set a policy on this sort of thing.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Mar 2005 08:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

That's the SECOND time Enda80 has done that -- and if I recall, we told him that it was inappropriate the first time around. 

Bad John McDonough. You should know better. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Mar 2005 08:53 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
I'm not sure if any of this clears things up at all, or just further muddies the whole discussion... 
<<<

It's the most informative and insightful post, so far. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 02 Mar 2005 06:25 pm    
By Enda80

Actually, I got Murray Ward's address from the backpage of one of the Teen Titan Indexes. Note that this was different from Peter Sanderson. Peter Sanderson wrote that letter as a fan, not a professional. Murray Ward gave his address out as a professional. But still, from now, I will private message addresses to the moderators to see if they feel inclined to write a letter or not.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Mar 2005 10:23 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The TEEN TITANS INDEX was published almost 20 years ago. It isn't safe to assume either (a) that Murray Ward is still happy to have his address in print, or (b) that that address remains valid.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 06:30 pm    
By Kang

Hello, I've been following this site for quite some time. My biggest interest is Kang, as the name should imply. The chronology listed for him and Immortus is funky to say the least. Could somebody point me to whatever thread must have been created at some point to deal with them? 

So, I was going to recommend all of the changes that were already mentioned, but John Simons apparently beat me to the punch by a bit! Anyway, here are a few other minor changes: 

REVELATION/RAVONNA LEXUS RENSLAYER III 
A:TO 1 
A:TO 2 
A:TO 3 
A:TO 4 
**AVF 9-FB 

It is a one panel flashback showing her dealing with the Delubric Consortium (pg 20 panel 5). In panel 2, he may also be observing her in "real time" (whatever that means in Chronopolis/Limbo) during the flashback. 

Ravonna II--John covered everything, I think 

RAVONNA LEXUS RENSLAYER 
A 23 
A 24 
A 269-FB 
A 69 
A 70-BTS 
A 71 
** 
A@ 21-FB 
A 296-FB 
A 291 
... 

I appologize that I don't know the proper notation for removing appearances. The order is based on the Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe Terminatrix Page. They placed the flashback in A@ 21 directly after the events of the Grandmaster's game: 

Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe wrote: 
(Avengers Annual #21 (fb)) - Perturbed at having lost (and perhaps feeling sympathy), the Grandmaster removed Ravonna from her stasis tube, replacing her with a pseudo-organic doppelganger. The Grandmaster then restored Ravonna to life and told her how Kang had betrayed her. Ravonna vowed to make Kang pay, and the Grandmaster agreed to help her find the means to do so. 


I don't have that issue, but I believe them. The implication from this is that the Ravonna in stasis from that point forward is a fake or divergence (depending on when the Kang that has her happened to diverge) and should not be listed. 

Also, some other identities for Ravonna II, take or leave them: 
Nebula II -- it is cross-listed, but not listed as an alias for her own listings 
"Kang Nebula"-- Her Cross-Time Kangs identity 
Temptress -- Her codename during a good portion of Citizen Kang 
Hecate -- This is from the Appendix...and I have no clue when she used it. Her line is probably getting long enough as it is, so add at your own discretion. 

Perhaps a "Caution: See also Immortus and Ravonna Lexus Renslayer" should be added to Kang as well. Both characters posed as him for rather lengthy periods, and somebody new to the whole Kang experience might simply be confused. I'll make recommendations for how to deal with the Scarlet Centurion and Pharaoh Rama-Tut in whatever the more Kang-related thread turns out to be. 


Since the topic of Marcus is also important to this, I see no evidence that the Marcus in A:TO is the same one that is in A3. It makes little sense that Kang would accept a defender of Revelation's realm (and Revelation is somebody who he thinks of as an enemy and obstacle) and make him his right hand man. It makes more sense for this to be another Marcus. I think John made reference to this in his post. To not try to give him a number, this would probably be best: 

IMMORTUS, MARCUS | LIMBO 9999 
A:TO 1 
A:TO 2 
A:TO 3 
**A:TO 4 


**Marcus watches from the future with Revelation as Terminatrix stabs Kang. Also, the "time" given in the story is 9999 (even though time has no meaning in Limbo), so that is why I recommended that name. 

And: 
SCARLET CENTURION II/MARCUS IMMORTUS XXIII 
** 
A3 38 
... 

**Terminatrix Objective appearances removed. 


Thanks for sitting through a newbie's first post. I really don't buy comic books much anymore, but I'll try to help out the MCP whenever I can.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Apr 2005 07:16 pm    
By John Simons

Really Kangfused wrote: 
>>>
Hello, I've been following this site for quite some time. My biggest interest is Kang, as the name should imply. The chronology listed for him and Immortus is funky to say the least. Could somebody point me to whatever thread must have been created at some point to deal with them? 
<<<

Well, the bulk of the listings were made by Russ long before this board existed, but there is a short thread discussing the characters here: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=542 

Quote: 
>>>
Perhaps a "Caution: See also Immortus and Ravonna Lexus Renslayer" should be added to Kang as well. Both characters posed as him for rather lengthy periods, and somebody new to the whole Kang experience might simply be confused. 
<<<

I would say that's a stretch in the case of Terminartrix, although in Immortus' case there is no indication in any of the two dozen chapters of the Crossing that it is him masquerading as Kang (going so far as to think as Kang in thought balloons!) I can certainly see how that would be a head-scratcher for the unaware. 

Quote: 
>>>
Since the topic of Marcus is also important to this, I see no evidence that the Marcus in A:TO is the same one that is in A3. It makes little sense that Kang would accept a defender of Revelation's realm (and Revelation is somebody who he thinks of as an enemy and obstacle) and make him his right hand man. 
<<<

I agree!
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 17 Apr 2005 08:51 pm    
By Kang

Come to think of it...yeah, Terminatrix never appears as Kang without revealing who she truly is to the reader. No real need for that. 

And thank you for the thread. I'll read through it. It isn't that I did not want to start a new thread; I just wanted to make sure I wasn't saying anything that was already said. 

Edit: And it looks like he already said most of the things I was going to say. There are still a few issues, but that is pretty close. It is just these changes haven't been made in the MCP itself yet. 

Second Edit: Oh! You are John Simons from "A Brief History of Kang!" I've been using those synopses as references for some of the Kang appearances I don't have!

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 07:43 am    
By michel

I don't think this has been adressed anywhere else on the board : Young Avengers #1 Director's Cut features as a bonus the Kang entry from the currently updated Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. It's called "Kang The Conqueror : A Complete History" (and that's true, it's 5 pages !) 

It also features "the Kang Timeline" : a chronology of Kang appearances, in temporal order (from 2950 BC to Limbo) but also with a rank in Kang's life's chronological order. 

Entry #1 : 
Date : 2950 BC 
COIKL (Chronological order in Kang's life) : 2 
Synopsis : First reign of Rama-Tut 
Issues : Fantastic Four #19 (Oct. 1963) / Dr. Strange #53 (June 1982) / West Coast Avengers #20-23 (May-August 1987) / Rise Of Apocalypse #3-4 (Dec. 1996; Jan. 1997) 

Entry #2 : 
Date : 2930 BC 
COIKL : 32 
Synopsis : Second reign of Rama-Tut 
Issues : Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) ; Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999) 

Entry #3 : 
Date : 6th century AD 
COIKL : 13 
Synopsis : Kang travels in Camelot 
Issue : Strange Tales #134 (July. 1964) 

They are 44 entries. If someone is interested, I could type them all.

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 10:31 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'd be interested in seeing that. I've always wondered why Kang isn't a shriveled up old man by this point. He's spent years in some timelines...yet he always looks young and healthy.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 10:35 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'm guessing that people just live longer in the 30th Century. As I recall, Avengers Forever told us that Kang was in his 70's by now. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 12:27 pm    
By Kang

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I'd be interested in seeing that. I've always wondered why Kang isn't a shriveled up old man by this point. He's spent years in some timelines...yet he always looks young and healthy. 
<<<

I think it might just be due to the nature of time in Limbo (A 269-FB through A 267) and Chronopolis (after A 269). Time does not seem to flow naturally in those places. 


Speaking of Young Avengers, it does have some weird implications for Kang. First, this kid apparently was called Kang during his childhood. In WI?2 39 he very clearly responds to the name Nathaniel Richards, which is the name that Uatu and the Time Variance Authority use to refer to him pre-Rama-Tut. Plus, I would have to look back at the source material, but I thought he had picked up the name Kang from the future where it was a contemporary name. The explanation I come up with is that he used Kang as a nickname when he was a child, and it was contemporary to his era and the wartorn future. 

The other weird question...the Kang from AVF definitely knows that changing his past will only cause an alternate possible dimension to come into being, so why did he even bother? Maybe there will be more explanation in the rest of the issues. My theory is that the Kang that did this was one of the divergent ones that would eventually be killed pre-A 267, but now the "real" Kang that has memories of the event is coming back to fix this little mistake.

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 01:22 pm    
By Enda80

Why isn't Kang old? 

Five possibilities: 

1. He went back in time to copy the Infinity Formula from Nick Fury 
2. He went back in time to copy the Pool of Blood from the Roman and the Yellow Claw (thank you, Lofficier) 
3. He went back in time to copy the Elixir Vitae from Fu Manchu 
4. He stumbled upon Yi Yang's immortality secret 
5. He stumbled upon Chandu's secret 
6. He time travelled steal a Bloodstone Fragment (pace Maha Yogi) 
7. He studied Black Axe to find immorality. 
Who else is immortal? 

Actually, Avengers Forever shows that Kang has stumbled upon the body jumping secret of Arnim Zola, the Red Skull, the Hate-Monger (Hitler), Phaeder, and Maelstrom. Kang's mind jumps into a fresh clone when needed.

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 02:03 pm    
By Kang

That is probably the best explanation. That was such a cop-out on Sanderson's part! At least Busiek fixed away that cowardly power for future Kang appearances. 

And I've read Avengers Forever plenty of times. While I should have come to the same conclusion, he never does explain his longevity away through the body-swapping. It still possibly a "spends so much time in Limbo/Chronopolis/suspended animation" thing. It could also be related to the peaceful era of his birth having completely defeated aging. The body-swapping is more likely, though. 

Kang is 70 at the end of his Egyptian rule. Technically, Kang is thousands of years old as of Avengers Forever. He spent a period from his last rule of ancient Egypt to the 20th Century in suspended animation. 


Going back to michel's post: I was wondering if a few appearances were on that list. 

M/:LG #?: While he never actually appeared, the First Line definitely mentioned meeting him in an issue. It would be cool if they made note of that. 

Prophet/Cable 1-2: I am not sure if this is canon. It seems to be through the magic of timetravel and Kang-ery that the two meet. The fact that Kang ends up trapped in the Cosmic Cube of the future (sorry if that was a spoiler!) at the end of the story probably means this is a divergent Kang. 

JLA/A 3: I'm not sure if some of the realities shown in JLA/A 3 are even supposed to exist, but one pair of realities mentioned a fight with Kang and the Lord of Time. While this is also not an appearance, the nod would again be interesting.

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 06:09 pm    
By michel

From the Young Avengers #1 Director's Cut, Kang entry 

Superhuman powers : Kang ages at a slightly slower rate than modern humanity. 

And his appeareance in Marvel : Lost Generation #10 is on the list, but not the two others.

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 07:38 pm  
By michel

Entry #1 : 
Date : 2950 BC 
COIKL (Chronological order in Kang's life) : 2 
Synopsis : First reign of Rama-Tut 
Issues : Fantastic Four #19 (Oct. 1963) / Dr. Strange #53 (June 1982) / West Coast Avengers #20-23 (May-August 1987) / Rise Of Apocalypse #3-4 (Dec. 1996; Jan. 1997) 

Entry #2 : 
Date : 2930 BC 
COIKL : 32 
Synopsis : Second reign of Rama-Tut 
Issues : Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) ; Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999) 

Entry #3 : 
Date : 6th century AD 
COIKL : 13 
Synopsis : Kang travels in Camelot 
Issue : Strange Tales #134 (July. 1964) 

Entry #4 : 
Date : 1873 AD 
COIKL : 20 
Synopsis : Kang establishes empire, foiled by time-traveling Avengers and cowboy heroes 
Issues : Avengers Forever #4-6 (Mar.-May 1999), Avengers #141-143 (Nov-Dec. 1975, Jan. 1976) 

Entry #5 : 
Date : Jan 1, 1901 AD 
COIKL : 9 
Synopsis : Kang establishes the city of Timely, Wisconsin, and the palace of Chronopolis 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #6 : 
Date : 1929 AD 
COIKL : 10 
Synopsis : "Victor Timely, Jr." recruits Phineas Horton to Timely Industries 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #7 : 
Date : 1980 AD 
COIKL : 11 
Synopsis : "Victor Timely III" founds prominent computer company 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #8 : 
Date : Shortly before Modern Era 
COIKL : 21 
Synopsis : Encounters First Line 
Issue : Marvel : Lost Generation #10 (May. 2000) 

Entry #9 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 3 
Synopsis : Briefly stranded by a time-storm, Rama-Tut rescues a space-lost Dr. Doom, tricking Doom into thinking that they might be the same man at different points in his life 
Issue : Fantastic Four Annual #2 (1964) 

Entry #10 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 5 
Synopsis : Scarlet Centurion dupes alternate Avengers ; banished extratemporarily by Avengers of Earth-616 
Issue : Avengers Annual #2 (Sept. 1968) 

Entry #11 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 6 
Synopsis : Heads back to his future, overshoots to 40th century 
Issue : Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) 

Entry #12 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 8 
Synopsis : Kang first encounters Avengers, forced to flee 
Issue : Avengers #8 (Sept. 1964) 

Entry #13 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 12 
Synopsis : Kang sends Spider-Man robot (Timespinner) against Avengers 
Issue : Avengers #11 (Dec. 1964) 

Entry #14 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 14 
Synopsis : Kang joins villains attacking Richards wedding 
Issue : Fantastic Four Annual #3 (1965) 

Entry #15 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 17 
Synopsis : Kang uses Hulk in failed time-traveling plot to destroy Banner's ancestor during World War I 
Issue : Incredible Hulk #135 (Jan. 1971) 

Entry #16 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 18 
Synopsis : Kang sends robot duplicate to battle Zarrko the Tomorrow Man, involving Spider-Man and Iron Man 
Issues : Marvel Team-Up #9-11 (May-July 1973) 

Entry #17 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 33 
Synopsis : Rama-Tut awakens from suspended animation 
Issue : Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) 

Entry #18 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 19 / 34 
Synopsis : Kang seeks to father the Celestial Messiah, defeated with aid of newly awakened Rama-Tut, slays Swordsman (DuQuesne), attempts to abduct Mantis during her wedding 
Issues : Avengers #128-129 (Oct-Nov. 1974), Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) ; Giant-Size Avengers #4 (1975) 

Entry #19 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 22 
Synopsis : Kang transported to Battleworld, fights on side of the villains 
Issues : Secret Wars #1-4 (May-Aug. 1984), Thor #383 (Sept. 1987), Secret Wars #11-12 (Mar-Apr. 1985) 

Entry #20 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 23 
Synopsis : Kang battles Thor, cast into Limbo 
Issue : Thor #140 (May, 1967) 

Entry #21 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 26.3 
Synopsis : Divergent Kang sends Growing Man to help foil demonic plots during Inferno 
Issue : Avengers #300 (Feb. 1989) 

Entry #22 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 28 
Synopsis : Kang seeks vengeance on Mantis 
Issues : Fantastic Four #323-325 (Feb-Apr. 1989) 

Entry #23 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 29 
Synopsis : Kang joins Dr. Doom in quest for Cosmic Containment Units 
Issues : Infinity War #1-5 (June-Oct. 1992) 

Entry #24 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 4 
Synopsis : Rama-Tut encounters Cable 
Issue : Cable #57 (Aug. 1998) 

Entry #25 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 37 
Synopsis : Kang joins forces with Libra, Supreme Intelligence and Avengers to oppose Immortus and Time Keepers 
Issues : Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999), #1 (Dec. 1998) 

Entry #26 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 41 
Synopsis : Kang and Marcus XXIII (Scarlet Centurion) lead armada from Damocles Base, conquering Earth. Ultimately defeated, slays Marcus for betrayal 
Issues : Avengers #41-49 (June-Dec. 2001, Jan-Feb. 2002), #51-54 (Apr-July 2002) 

Entry #27 : 
Date : 15-20 years in the future (Earth-8810) 
COIKL : 26.2 
Synopsis : Divergent involved with Time Bubble 
Issues : Avengers #297 (Nov. 1988), Fantastic Four #338 (Mar. 1990) 

Entry #28 : 
Date : 3025 (Other Earth Calender) 
COIKL : 1 
Synopsis : Nathaniel Richards discovers the fortress or Richards the Benefactor, travels to 2950 BC for first period as Rama-Tut 
Issue : Fantastic Four #19 (Oct. 1963) 

Entry #29 : 
Date : 40th century (Other Earth Calender) 
COIKL : 7 
Synopsis : Takes identity of Kang, begins to carve empire 
Issue : Avengers #8 (Sept. 1964) 

Entry #30 : 
Date : 40th century (Other Earth Calender) 
COIKL : 15 
Synopsis : Kang summons Avengers, conquers Ravonna's kingdom ; Ravonna slain by Baltag 
Issues : Avengers #23-24 (Dec. 1965 - Jan. 1966) 

Entry #31 : 
Date : 40th century (Other Earth Calendar) 
COIKL : 16 
Synopsis : Grandmaster challenges Kang with prize of power of life or death ; squanders power in vain attempt to slay Avengers 
Issues : Avengers #69-71 (Oct-Dec. 1969) 

Entry #32 : 
Date : 40th century (Other Earth Calender) 
COIKL : 40 
Synopsis : Kang engineers series of Marcus successors 
Issue : Avengers #45 (Oct. 2001) 

Entry #33 : 
Date : Citadel at the End of Time 
COIKL : 39 
Synopsis : Kang assists against Immortus and Time-Keepers. Diverges self (Kang) from Immortus, destroys Keepers 
Issues : Avengers Forever #1-4 (Dec. 1998 ; January-March 1999), #9-12 (August, October, November 1999 ; February 2000) 

Entry #34 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 9 
Synopsis : Kang establishes Chronopolis 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #35 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 27 
Synopsis : Kang travels to Chronopolis 
Issue : Avengers Forever #9 (August 1999) 

Entry #36 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 30 
Synopsis : Kang battles Terminatrix / Ravonna, sacrifices self to save her, left in stasis 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #37 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 31 
Synopsis : Kang revived by Ravonna, teams with Avengers, traps Alioth ; Cross-Time Kangs destroyed 
Issues : Avengers : Terminatrix Objective #1-4 (Sep.-Dec. 1993) 

Entry #38 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 36 
Synopsis : Resumes role of Kang 
Issue : Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999) 

Entry #39 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 38 
Synopsis : Kang flees as Immortus destroys Chronopolis 
Issue : Avengers Forever #3 (Feb. 1999) 

Entry #40 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 19 / 34 
Synopsis : Encounters Immortus, creates Legion of the Unliving 
Issues : Avengers #131-132, Giant-Size Avengers #3 (1975) 

Entry #41 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 24 
Synopsis : Kang discovers seeming corpse of Immortus, summons alternate Ravonna, founds Council of Kangs, slays all other Kangs, absorbs their memories 
Issues : Avengers #267-269 (May-July 1986) 

Entry #42 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 25 
Synopsis : Kang diverges himself into two to split the madness 
Issue : Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999) 

Entry #43 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 26.1 
Synopsis : Divergent Kang recruited into Cross-Time Kangs, opposes Kang-Nebula 
Issue : Avengers #291-296 (May-Oct. 1988) 

Entry #44 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 35 
Synopsis : Rama-Tut wanders through past, resolved to oppose destiny of becoming Immortus 
Issue : Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999) 

Note : COIKL 9 appears twice in entries 5 and 34 
Both entries 18 and 40 fit in two COIKLs, 19 and 34 
COIKL 26 is splintered in three : 26.1 26.2 and 26.3 (entries 43 27 and 21) 
There are 41 COIKLs, 43 with the three different COIKLs 26 

Have a good time with all that 

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 10:24 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

That...doesn't sound like the proper order to me...wouldn't the last entry be his last appearance from the end of Avengers vol. 2, #54? And is his appearance in Young Avengers #3 his latest appearance chronologically, or does that fall earlier in his lifetime? 

What a mess...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 10:36 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You mean Avengers vol. 3, #54. 


watching: csi

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Posted: 24 Apr 2005 11:31 pm    
By John Simons

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
That...doesn't sound like the proper order to me...wouldn't the last entry be his last appearance from the end of Avengers vol. 2, #54? 
<<<

If you take note of the "COIKL (Chronological order in Kang's life)", that appearence is the latest entry, from Kang's POV. 
The writers of this chronology decided to put it in historical order. Since the Kang War happened in 2003, it would be listed before the stuff that happened in the 40th century.That's probably not the way I would've done it, but hey they didn't ask me! 


Quote: 
>>>
And is his appearance in Young Avengers #3 his latest appearance chronologically, or does that fall earlier in his lifetime? 
<<<

Too soon to tell! 

By the way, you mentioned Kang looking young. Personally I thought he looked pretty old both when he appeared as Rama-Tut during the Celestial madonna story, and also in his last appearence during the Kang War (salt and pepper hair, dark rings under his eyes) 

Kangfused, I don't think Iron Lad is really named Kang, I think he said "They call me Kang" to Cap and Shellhead at the end of Young Avengers 1 because 
a) it makes a great cliffhanger 
b) if he has said, "I'm Nathaniel Richards" they probably would've given him a blank stare of incomprehension. 

In the FB in issue 2, Kang tells his younger self that warring alien tribes in the 40th century "Will declare you Kang the conqueror", which would imply that he isn't named that yet. 

As for why Kang would bother trying to change his own past when he knows it will merely create a divergent, perhaps he is so exasperated by trying to raise a Marcus he can be proud of, Kang has decided that the only deserving pupil he can be a mentor to is his own younger self! 

Am I the only one who feels that Heinberg is showing a lot more knowledge of and respect for Avengers history in the spinoff title than Bendis has demonstrated in the main book?
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2005 12:07 am    
By Kang

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
As for why Kang would bother trying to change his own past when he knows it will merely create a divergent, perhaps he is so exasperated by trying to raise a Marcus he can be proud of, Kang has decided that the only deserving pupil he can be a mentor to is his own younger self! 
<<<

Actually, that makes a whole lot of sense! It not only meshes well with A3 54, but also with his odd comment about wondering if he was right to kill all of the other Kangs in AVF 9. That statement was probably in reference to pigeon-holing himself into becoming Immortus, but could have shown some of the thought processes that brought him to this decision. 


As far as Kang's age goes, I know he looked fairly grey in Avengers Forever, and his speech definitely kept on moving toward how old he was feeling as well. Still, he does not look 70. And point taken about the Kang name game. The writers obviously knew his real name since it was listed in the handbook listing that they bothered to include in the Director's Cut version.

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Posted: 25 Apr 2005 08:31 am    
By michel

Here is the same list, sorted by COIKL (Chronological order in Kang's life), the same sort than in the MCP 

Entry #28 : 
Date : 3025 (Other Earth Calender) 
COIKL : 1 
Synopsis : Nathaniel Richards discovers the fortress or Richards the Benefactor, travels to 2950 BC for first period as Rama-Tut 
Issue : Fantastic Four #19 (Oct. 1963) 

Entry #1 : 
Date : 2950 BC 
COIKL : 2 
Synopsis : First reign of Rama-Tut 
Issues : Fantastic Four #19 (Oct. 1963) / Dr. Strange #53 (June 1982) / West Coast Avengers #20-23 (May-August 1987) / Rise Of Apocalypse #3-4 (Dec. 1996; Jan. 1997) 

Entry #9 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 3 
Synopsis : Briefly stranded by a time-storm, Rama-Tut rescues a space-lost Dr. Doom, tricking Doom into thinking that they might be the same man at different points in his life 
Issue : Fantastic Four Annual #2 (1964) 

Entry #24 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 4 
Synopsis : Rama-Tut encounters Cable 
Issue : Cable #57 (Aug. 1998) 

Entry #10 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 5 
Synopsis : Scarlet Centurion dupes alternate Avengers ; banished extratemporarily by Avengers of Earth-616 
Issue : Avengers Annual #2 (Sept. 1968) 

Entry #11 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 6 
Synopsis : Heads back to his future, overshoots to 40th century 
Issue : Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) 

Entry #29 : 
Date : 40th century (Other Earth Calender) 
COIKL : 7 
Synopsis : Takes identity of Kang, begins to carve empire 
Issue : Avengers #8 (Sept. 1964) 

Entry #12 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 8 
Synopsis : Kang first encounters Avengers, forced to flee 
Issue : Avengers #8 (Sept. 1964) 

Entry #5 : 
Date : Jan 1, 1901 AD 
COIKL : 9 
Synopsis : Kang establishes the city of Timely, Wisconsin, and the palace of Chronopolis 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #34 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 9 
Synopsis : Kang establishes Chronopolis 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #6 : 
Date : 1929 AD 
COIKL : 10 
Synopsis : "Victor Timely, Jr." recruits Phineas Horton to Timely Industries 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #7 : 
Date : 1980 AD 
COIKL : 11 
Synopsis : "Victor Timely III" founds prominent computer company 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #13 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 12 
Synopsis : Kang sends Spider-Man robot (Timespinner) against Avengers 
Issue : Avengers #11 (Dec. 1964) 

Entry #3 : 
Date : 6th century AD 
COIKL : 13 
Synopsis : Kang travels in Camelot 
Issue : Strange Tales #134 (July. 1964) 

Entry #14 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 14 

Synopsis : Kang joins villains attacking Richards wedding 
Issue : Fantastic Four Annual #3 (1965) 

Entry #30 : 
Date : 40th century (Other Earth Calender) 
COIKL : 15 
Synopsis : Kang summons Avengers, conquers Ravonna's kingdom ; Ravonna slain by Baltag 
Issues : Avengers #23-24 (Dec. 1965 - Jan. 1966) 

Entry #31 : 
Date : 40th century (Other Earth Calendar) 
COIKL : 16 
Synopsis : Grandmaster challenges Kang with prize of power of life or death ; squanders power in vain attempt to slay Avengers 
Issues : Avengers #69-71 (Oct-Dec. 1969) 

Entry #15 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 17 
Synopsis : Kang uses Hulk in failed time-traveling plot to destroy Banner's ancestor during World War I 
Issue : Incredible Hulk #135 (Jan. 1971) 

Entry #16 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 18 
Synopsis : Kang sends robot duplicate to battle Zarrko the Tomorrow Man, involving Spider-Man and Iron Man 
Issues : Marvel Team-Up #9-11 (May-July 1973) 

Entry #18 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 19 / 34 
Synopsis : Kang seeks to father the Celestial Messiah, defeated with aid of newly awakened Rama-Tut, slays Swordsman (DuQuesne), attempts to abduct Mantis during her wedding 
Issues : Avengers #128-129 (Oct-Nov. 1974), Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) ; Giant-Size Avengers #4 (1975) 

Entry #40 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 19 / 34 
Synopsis : Encounters Immortus, creates Legion of the Unliving 
Issues : Avengers #131-132, Giant-Size Avengers #3 (1975) 

Entry #4 : 
Date : 1873 AD 
COIKL : 20 
Synopsis : Kang establishes empire, foiled by time-traveling Avengers and cowboy heroes 
Issues : Avengers Forever #4-6 (Mar.-May 1999), Avengers #141-143 (Nov-Dec. 1975, Jan. 1976) 

Entry #8 : 
Date : Shortly before Modern Era 
COIKL : 21 
Synopsis : Encounters First Line 
Issue : Marvel : Lost Generation #10 (May. 2000) 

Entry #19 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 22 
Synopsis : Kang transported to Battleworld, fights on side of the villains 
Issues : Secret Wars #1-4 (May-Aug. 1984), Thor #383 (Sept. 1987), Secret Wars #11-12 (Mar-Apr. 1985) 

Entry #20 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 23 
Synopsis : Kang battles Thor, cast into Limbo 
Issue : Thor #140 (May, 1967) 

Entry #41 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 24 
Synopsis : Kang discovers seeming corpse of Immortus, summons alternate Ravonna, founds Council of Kangs, slays all other Kangs, absorbs their memories 
Issues : Avengers #267-269 (May-July 1986) 

Entry #42 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 25 
Synopsis : Kang diverges himself into two to split the madness 
Issue : Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999) 

Entry #43 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 26.1 
Synopsis : Divergent Kang recruited into Cross-Time Kangs, opposes Kang-Nebula 
Issue : Avengers #291-296 (May-Oct. 1988) 

Entry #27 : 
Date : 15-20 years in the future (Earth-8810) 
COIKL : 26.2 
Synopsis : Divergent involved with Time Bubble 
Issues : Avengers #297 (Nov. 1988), Fantastic Four #338 (Mar. 1990) 

Entry #21 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 26.3 
Synopsis : Divergent Kang sends Growing Man to help foil demonic plots during Inferno 
Issue : Avengers #300 (Feb. 1989) 

Entry #35 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 27 
Synopsis : Kang travels to Chronopolis 
Issue : Avengers Forever #9 (August 1999) 

Entry #22 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 28 
Synopsis : Kang seeks vengeance on Mantis 
Issues : Fantastic Four #323-325 (Feb-Apr. 1989) 

Entry #23 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 29 
Synopsis : Kang joins Dr. Doom in quest for Cosmic Containment Units 
Issues : Infinity War #1-5 (June-Oct. 1992) 

Entry #36 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 30 
Synopsis : Kang battles Terminatrix / Ravonna, sacrifices self to save her, left in stasis 
Issue : Avengers Annual #21 (1992) 

Entry #37 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 31 
Synopsis : Kang revived by Ravonna, teams with Avengers, traps Alioth ; Cross-Time Kangs destroyed 
Issues : Avengers : Terminatrix Objective #1-4 (Sep.-Dec. 1993) 

Entry #2 : 
Date : 2930 BC 
COIKL : 32 
Synopsis : Second reign of Rama-Tut 
Issues : Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) ; Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999) 

Entry #17 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 33 
Synopsis : Rama-Tut awakens from suspended animation 
Issue : Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) 

Entry #18 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 19 / 34 
Synopsis : Kang seeks to father the Celestial Messiah, defeated with aid of newly awakened Rama-Tut, slays Swordsman (DuQuesne), attempts to abduct Mantis during her wedding 
Issues : Avengers #128-129 (Oct-Nov. 1974), Giant-Size Avengers #2 (Nov. 1974) ; Giant-Size Avengers #4 (1975) 

Entry #40 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 19 / 34 
Synopsis : Encounters Immortus, creates Legion of the Unliving 
Issues : Avengers #131-132, Giant-Size Avengers #3 (1975) 

Entry #44 : 
Date : Limbo 
COIKL : 35 
Synopsis : Rama-Tut wanders through past, resolved to oppose destiny of becoming Immortus 
Issue : Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999) 

Entry #38 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 36 
Synopsis : Resumes role of Kang 
Issue : Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999) 

Entry #25 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 37 
Synopsis : Kang joins forces with Libra, Supreme Intelligence and Avengers to oppose Immortus and Time Keepers 
Issues : Avengers Forever #9 (Aug. 1999), #1 (Dec. 1998) 

Entry #39 : 
Date : Chronopolis 
COIKL : 38 
Synopsis : Kang flees as Immortus destroys Chronopolis 
Issue : Avengers Forever #3 (Feb. 1999) 

Entry #33 : 
Date : Citadel at the End of Time 
COIKL : 39 
Synopsis : Kang assists against Immortus and Time-Keepers. Diverges self (Kang) from Immortus, destroys Keepers 
Issues : Avengers Forever #1-4 (Dec. 1998 ; January-March 1999), #9-12 (August, October, November 1999 ; February 2000) 

Entry #32 : 
Date : 40th century (Other Earth Calender) 
COIKL : 40 
Synopsis : Kang engineers series of Marcus successors 
Issue : Avengers #45 (Oct. 2001) 

Entry #26 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 41 
Synopsis : Kang and Marcus XXIII (Scarlet Centurion) lead armada from Damocles Base, conquering Earth. Ultimately defeated, slays Marcus for betrayal 
Issues : Avengers #41-49 (June-Dec. 2001, Jan-Feb. 2002), #51-54 (Apr-July 2002)

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Posted: 25 Apr 2005 02:07 pm    
By John Simons

michel wrote: 
>>>
Entry #20 : 
Date : Modern Era 
COIKL : 23 
Synopsis : Kang battles Thor, cast into Limbo 
Issue : Thor #140 (May, 1967) 
<<<

I wonder why they placed this story so far out of publication order. So this Kang appearence, from 1967, takes place from his point of view after the Secret Wars? I'll have to pull that issue out to see if I can figure out why it wouldn't belong between his 1966 and 1969 appearences.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2005 08:31 pm    
By Kang

They probably wanted to put Kang's arrival in Limbo next to the stuff that he did in Limbo. They probably figured that the order of appearances is arbitrary for the divergent Kangs. As far as I can tell, this is the highest level of granularity for the divergent Kangs: 

Kang that built Chronopolis and founded Timely (A@ 21/4) 
ST 134 Kang 
T@ 17/4-FB through H2 135 Kang 
MTU 9-BTS through H2 286-BTS Kang 
Secret Wars/Secret Wars II Kang 

Of course, I wouldn't expect the MCP to break up all of these appearances as they all ultimately end up as the same character with the same memories. Also, there is no significant overlap worth making the distinction. 

Then there is "Fred," but we won't go there. Actually of all the different Kangs, Fred is probably the one most deserving of his own listing: 

KANG OF EARTH 123488.23497/"FRED KANG" 
AVF 9-FB 
{A 291} 
A 292 
A 293 
A 294 
A 295 
A 296 
A 297 
FF 337 
FF 338 

I might be missing a flashback in there, but whatever. 

I am actually puzzled by a few of their other placements: 
FF@ 2/2 vs. C2 57: The thing that gets me here is the beard. Rama-Tut had clearly shaved off the beard before meeting Doom (in fact, the scene of him shaving it is shown in A 269...I don't have FF@ 2 to see if it was seen in there). In the Cable appearance, the beard is back. A 269 explains "Chronal turbulance" brought him to Dr. Doom, A@ 2 explains that a 'temporal disturbance" caused the Scarlet Centurion fiasco, and A 8 explains that "electro-static disturbances" brought him to the future. Any one of these events could have landed him with Cable. I say the beard is the tie-breaker. 

M/:LG 10: Weird placement. Maybe they know something about this nonexistent issue that we don't. 

A 300: I could have sworn this was a member of the Council, possibly the chairman. 

Weird.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2005 08:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kang wrote: 
>>>
I am actually puzzled by a few of their other placements: 
FF@ 2/2 vs. C2 57: The thing that gets me here is the beard. Rama-Tut had clearly shaved off the beard before meeting Doom (in fact, the scene of him shaving it is shown in A 269...I don't have FF@ 2 to see if it was seen in there). 
<<<

He does not have the beard in FF@ 2. 


watching: spontaneous human combustion

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Posted: 25 Apr 2005 10:48 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

michel wrote: 
>>>
Entry #1 : 
Date : 2950 BC 
COIKL (Chronological order in Kang's life) : 2 
Synopsis : First reign of Rama-Tut 
Issues : Fantastic Four #19 (Oct. 1963) / Dr. Strange #53 (June 1982) / West Coast Avengers #20-23 (May-August 1987) / Rise Of Apocalypse #3-4 (Dec. 1996; Jan. 1997) 

... 

Have a good time with all that  
<<<

Careful, guys. 

I don't have the Director's Cut, so I don't know if this is taken verbatim from the books. But if so, it's uncomfortably close to copyright infringement. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 26 Apr 2005 01:59 am    
By michel

It's not presented in the same way in the Director's Cut but the text is verbatim, yes. I understand there may be a problem if you scan art pages or duplicate an article, but this is just data, it's made to be used no ? Anyway, if you feel it's a problem, I would delete my posts gladly.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Apr 2005 07:40 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I don't think you've duplicated enough to warrant deleting this entirely, but it would be a copyright violation if you copied the whole thing. The same as if you re-typed a Stephen King novel and shared it with everyone. 

The thing is that it isn't just data; it's information. Marvel's put the data into a format that is understandable and useable, and they've published it. They essentially own that data in that particular format. You could copy the MCP and repost it somewhere else, and that would technically be the same violation. (Although Russ has elected to make the information more freely available.) 

Like I said, the minimal amount that you've copied could fairly easily fall under fair use laws, so I don't think we're in any danger of legal action.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Apr 2005 07:50 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

A better analogy would be if you retyped a four-page short story from a 400-page short-story collection by Stephen King. That would still be copyright violation. The question here is, have we lifted the entirety of the article, or even enough of the article, to qualify? Hence, my concern. But again, I don't have the article, so I'm kind of in the dark. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Apr 2005 08:57 am    
By michel

The article about Kang is five page long, 80 % of each page is text (the entire history of Kang), 20 % at the bottom of each page is the chronology I typed.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Apr 2005 11:47 am    
By Kang

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
He does not have the beard in FF@ 2. 
<<<
 

I guess I forgot to make my statement there. I knew the beard was gone, and I was using that to show C2 57 should precede FF@ 2. I was also wondering about the scene in A 269. There is actually a flashback showing him holding the razor in that issue (pg 4 panel 4). Is this a reproduction from FF@ 2, or is it a newer flashback scene that the Index to the Avengers missed? 

"I had just finished removing my ceremonial beard, when my ship ran into unexpected chronal-turbulence--" (emphasis theirs, not mine) 


Thank you again for the name thing, btw.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Apr 2005 02:56 pm    
By Arthur
Director

Kang wrote: 
>>>
I was also wondering about the scene in A 269. There is actually a flashback showing him holding the razor in that issue (pg 4 panel 4). Is this a reproduction from FF@ 2, or is it a newer flashback scene that the Index to the Avengers missed? 
<<<


The scene showing Rama-Tut shaving does not appear in FF@ 2. It occurs while he is still in the time-stream (A 269). His appearance in FF@ 2/2 is entirely after he exits the timestream into the twentieth century(and no flashbacks).

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Apr 2005 11:15 pm    
By Kang

Actually, n/m...I found a different way to deal with the beard. Here, I'm just going to post the history I have for Kang from childhood to A 8. I probably went a little deeper than I should have gone. Please note that I do not have a copy of GSA 2 or Citizen Kang for reference. Several of the A 269 panels could be from GSA 2. Several of the AVF 9 panels could be from either GSA 2 or Citizen Kang. Also, there may be scenes I am missing from Kang's past still, probably from GSA 2. 

YA 2-FB: Young Nathaniel Richards is bullied. (in moments, this flashback goes into a divergent timeline, of course) 

FF 19-FB (pg 10 pn 1-3): Nathan watched the benefactor's historical videos on a device that has had a different name in each version of his origin. 

A 269-FB (pg 3 pn 2-3): Nathan looks over the city. He flies to the citadel/shrine of the benefactor. 

FF 19-FB (pg 10 pn 4): Nathan, armed with some kind of map, searches the benefactor's shrine and finds the time machine. 

WI?2 39: One day, Nathan is watching the historical videos. He goes back to study the time machine more. Two sets of Fantastic Four arrive to prevent the Timequake. Nathan is injected with the Saturnyne Symbiont, and he loses all memory of the event until later. 

AVF 9-FB (pg 4 pn 5): Nathan has finished half of the sphinx. 

FF 19-FB (pg 10 pn 5-6, pg 11 pn 1-3): Nathan travels to the past. He crashes and is blinded. With his Ultra-Diode Ray Gun, he still manages to become master of Egypt. His blindness is cured soon after this flashback. 

A 269-FB (pg 3 pn 5): A newly crowned Pharaoh Rama-Tut stands over his people with a ceremonial staff. They do not seem excited. 

AVF 9-FB (pg 5 pn 1): Pharaoh Rama-Tut stands over his people holding his gun. They seem quite a bit more excited all of a sudden (this was just a humorous inclusion on my part...while there are inconsistencies, the two may have been intended to be the same scene). 

ROA 1-2: Rama-Tut rules while Apocalypse gains power. 

FF 19 (through pg 12 pn 1): Rama-Tut captures the Fantastic Four and explains his past to them. (all concurrencies apply, but I'm not looking up the pages) 

AVF 9-FB (pg 5 pn 2): A panel transplant that fits perfectly right here. Dialogue: "There, Susan Storm! There is what happens to those who defy me-- --no matter what powers they possess!" Try it out...it makes the scene flow BETTER IMHO! 

FF 19 (pg 12 pn 2 through pg 20): The rest of the Fantastic Four/Dr. Strange/WCA/Apocalypse matter (once again, all concurrencies apply). Rama-Tut escapes in his time sphere. 

CA@ 11/4-FB (page ?): Rama-Tut pierces through the time barrier into the timestream. 

A 269-FB (pg 4 pn 4): Rama-Tut shaves off his ceremonial beard just before hitting chronal turbulence. 

FF@ 2/2: Rama-Tut rescues Dr. Doom, has a chat with him, and returns him to the 20th Century. According to WI? 29, he then takes time to increase the power of his Ultra-Diode Ray Gun and make an armor. As the newly born Scarlet Centurion, he travels one year into the past from where he saved Dr. Doom. 

A@ 2-FB (pg ?): Scarlet Centurion appears to the Avengers and presents his plan. 24 hours later, the Avengers agree to join forces with him. They begin capturing the other superbeings. 

WI? 29-FB (pg 5 pn 1 through pg 6 pn 1): While the Centurion watches the Avengers defeat the other heroes, he takes off his helmet. Underneith he still has on his pharaoh's headdress! He also has regrown his beard (although the beard mysteriously shows up in flashbacks to FF@ 2/2). As he watches the heroes, Scarlet Centurion recalls how he ended up at this point. 

A@ 2-FB (pg ?): The superbeings all defeated, the Scarlet Centurion warns the Avengers of the five enemies from another world that they would need to defeat. 

A 56-BTS: The Scarlet Centurion has some hand in bringing the Earth-616 Avengers to his timeline. 

A@ 2: (insert bulk of story here) The Centurion is defeated and banished to the time stream. Sometime after this, the Scarlet Centurion finds his time sphere and gets rid of the armor/identity. 

A 8-FB (pg 8 pn 1): Once again in his former identity (and seemingly with a beard...this should work!), Rama-Tut finally sets off for the future again. 

C2 57: A time storm causes Rama-Tut to get stranded X years later. While there he meets up with Cable and Blaquesmith. This gets Rama-Tut, the beard, and the storm all together in one place. It also supports his trip from past to future; it had made no sense for him to run into Doom after he had already passed that time! Since Rama-Tut does not give any clues for time placement in his speech (he mentions the fight with the Fantastic Four, but only in reference to the idea of escaping Egypt), there is no reason this cannot be placed here. The improved Ultra-Diode Ray Gun probably doesn't get answers out of Blaquesmith and break Cable's will because they are telepaths. Rama-Tut manages to get the sphere working well enough to leave the 20th Century. 

A 8-FB (pg 8 pn 2-4): Rama-Tut lands out of control 1000 years off course. He immediately forms plans of world domination. 

A 269-FB (pg 6 pn 3-6): Rama-Tut locks himself in a research complex. There he transforms himself into Kang the Conqueror. Kang brings the barbarians to his side. 

AVF 9-FB (pg 6 pn 4-6): Kang expanded his empire to space, beginning with crushing the Badoon. 

A 269-FB (pg 7 pn 1): Kang sits on his throne, bored with the future already. He thought about the 20th Century, and how he now was a worthy match for Dr. Doom. (this scene is generic enough, its inclusion really doesn't matter. The narration suggests this is its proper place, though.) 

A 8-FB (pg 8 pn 5): Kang finally announces to his followers (during either an unfulfilling battle or some sort of game) that he is going to go back to an earlier century and find a worthy battle. 

A 8: Kang's classic first true battle with the Avengers in the Age of Marvels. 


There is what I have. I'm sure it is not perfect yet, but it definitely flows from start to finish with very little beyond the story required to hold it together.

Last edited by Kang on 29 Apr 2005 02:06 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 28 Apr 2005 07:13 pm    
By Enda80

Page 58 of Cap@11/4 has one panel of Kang, it seems, actually piercing the barrier into the timestream and/or Limbo (the timestream was in Conan the Barbarian I#185 and issues of Deathlok, Limbo we know all too well). Half of the panel is off Egypt, his time vehicle is in the center, and the rest is a buch of floating cricles, half a starburst, and some silver winding elongated shape. The next panel has him saving Doctor Doom. 


FF 19 (pg 12 pn 2 through pg 20): The rest of the Fantastic Four/Dr. Strange/WCA/Apocalypse matter (once again, all concurrencies apply). Rama-Tut escapes in his time sphere. 

CA@ 11/4-FB (page ?): I have no clue what this is. Is this the proper placement? Could somebody describe the scene? 

A 269-FB (pg 4 pn 4): Rama-Tut shaves off his ceremonial beard just before hitting chronal turbulence.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Apr 2005 09:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks for the info, John, but you really need to start using the "quote" button to indicate when you're quoting a post. Not all of us remember or can recognize old snatches of conversation mixed in among new text... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Apr 2005 02:36 am    
By Kang

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Page 58 of Cap@11/4 has one panel of Kang, it seems, actually piercing the barrier into the timestream and/or Limbo (the timestream was in Conan the Barbarian I#185 and issues of Deathlok, Limbo we know all too well). Half of the panel is off Egypt, his time vehicle is in the center, and the rest is a buch of floating cricles, half a starburst, and some silver winding elongated shape. The next panel has him saving Doctor Doom. 
<<<

Thank you. That definitely solidifies the placing of that scene. I'm going with the timestream, since it is never explicitly mentioned that he goes to limbo during this time. I changed my original post so that it shows that description there. 

I'll post this up in a more MCP-like format sometime soon. I am probably going to take a look at the concurrent books a little bit more, first. Nothing necessarily needs to be changed; I'm just that obsessed. 

Edit: As I was looking at those titles, and I realized I misplaced that panel from AVF that went inside of FF 19. It should follow the second panel, not the first. I had placed it based on character position and dialogue, but I had completely ignored the background. Technically, the panel is a reproduction of the cover to FF 19, something that I cannot believe I did not realize. To show some of my progress on the "concurrent" books, the panel precedes DRSTR2 53 pg 11 pn 5 where Rama-Tut hands off Sue to his...er, experts. 

I get the feeling that there really is not a whole lot of concurrency that needs to be left in those issues. While these are not flashbacks, the characters are silently observing events that, for all intents and purposes, are slightly interactive flashbacks. This is especially the case with the WCA issue, where the WCAs don't really mange to touch anything that is even remotely important. 

WCA2 22 presents some stupid errors in timing. The biggest one is that they skip DRSTR2 53 pg 19 pn 1. In that panel, Strange watches the Fantastic Four leave. Then he leaves in the next few panels. Then, in WCA2 22, the Fantastic Four leave AFTER Dr. Strange did. Should the WCA version be considered what actually happened as a retcon. This sequence of events is VERY important to the suspension of disbelief; it makes it so Strange did not see the WCA before he left even though he was watching that general area until the FF left. This is really in tangent to the topic because it occurs after Rama-Tut has already left.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2005 11:26 pm    
By Kang

I bought A@ 2, and I ran into a snag: 
In a flashback on pg 26 pn 4, the Scarlet Centurion influences the Wasp. This flashback is presented as concurrent to A 56 pg 12 pn 4, and the Index lists the A 56 part as "during Avengers Annual 2." Would it work just to place the Scarlet Centurion at A 56-BTS and not even mention that flashback where we see and hear what he is doing at that moment? Or does the fact that there is new information in the flashback make it necessary to consider it as well? What about other flashbacks that rehash previous scenes but add somebody into the background of the picture? It places them BTS in the original scene, but does the flashback that gave the new information get to stand for that character? 

I'm sure this is a question that the MCP has already dealt with, and this newbie just does not know the policy yet. Is there any thread where this has been discussed in detail? I know that you avoid concurrency like the plague, and I am definitely in favor of the simplest solution. 


A few other questions regarding FF 19/DRSTR2 53/WCA2 20-23/ROA 3-4: 
A villain's security system goes off without him being aware of it. Is that a BTS for the villain? If so, that would probably complicate the MCP. For example, that would put Dr. Doom BTS in FF 19 for the traps in his castle. I am asking for the robots and things inside of the sphinx in DRSTR2 53 and WCA2 22. They are obviously Rama-Tut's robots dealing with intruders, but Rama-Tut himself was unaware that anything was going on inside of his sphinx during the whole matter. 

The second has to do with his people: Rama-Tut's weapon saps the wills of his people, making them believe he is almost a god. So, is the appearance of anybody that had been hit by his ray a BTS appearance of him until it wears off? Once again, he is kind of unaware of their individual actions; he just knows that they won't do anything against him. 

Oh, and jumping over to Citizen Kang: One of the flashbacks shows him living the vid files of his ancestor's past through some kind of VR technology. This should stand as just a retcon to upgrade that future technology, and not a new flashback, right? The MCP already omits this appearance (and it seems to be un-retconned by AVF 9), so I would imagine this is the case. 


Thank you in advance for the answers. Who knew it could be this complicated? 


Here is what I have for Rama-Tut's appearances during FF 19 so far. This does not yet factor in ROA 1-4, and it does not count his potential BTS appearances covered by questions above: 

WCA2 20 (Rama-Tut hits WCA with his ray; Konshu protects their true appearances) 
WCA2 21 (Rama-Tut has the intruders thrown into Konshu's temple) 
FF 19-BTS (pages 6-8, Rama-Tut uses his ray on the Fantastic Four) 
DRSTR2 53 (pg 9 pn 5 through pg 10 pn 4; Rama-Tut has the FF sent in) 
FF 19 ~ DRSTR2 53 ~ WCA2 22 (Rama-Tut addresses the FF as they wake up) 
FF 19 (pg 9 pn 2 through pg 11: Rama-Tut tells his past to the FF, then shoots them with his ray; The Dr. Strange version of this scene is just a condensed version of the original, not worth mention; it does not even add Dr. Strange to the scene) 
FF 19 ~ DRSTR2 53 (Rama-Tut has the FF sent away and takes Sue to his side; the DRSTR version is a bit out of order but still fits) 
AVF 9-FB (Rama-Tut takes Sue outside and brags some more) 
DRSTR2 53 (pg 11 pn 5: back inside; Rama-Tut hands Sue off to be prepared) 
FF 19 (pg 12 pn 5 through pg 16 pn 2: Rama-Tut is entertained by Johnny, then later has Sue by his side. Ben crashes the party, and Rama-Tut escapes through his wall. These scenes are all shown in DRSTR, but nothing new is added. One of the scenes is seen in WCA, but the same is true) 
DRSTR2 53 (pg 15 pn 3 through pg 16 pn 5; Rama-Tut runs into Stephen during his escape. He activates further security systems and continues) 
FF 19 (pg 19 pn 2, pg 20 pn 5: Rama-Tut gives speeches through his monitor to the FF) 
FF 19 ~ DRSTR2 53 ~ WCA2 22 (BLAST OFF! Should this be an appearance, or BTS? We just see the ship, not him) 
CA@ 11/4 (pg 6 pn 1...second ship verse, same as the first?) 

I intend to go through all of the involved characters for this 48 hour period, and I have made a timeline for the whole event. I'm just waiting to get ROA GN back from a friend to finish.

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Posted: 01 May 2005 12:39 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
does the fact that there is new information in the flashback make it necessary to consider it as well? What about other flashbacks that rehash previous scenes but add somebody into the background of the picture? It places them BTS in the original scene, but does the flashback that gave the new information get to stand for that character?  
<<<

I'm pretty sure that yes, both are included. We might use the "~" notation if necessary. 


Quote: 
>>>
A villain's security system goes off without him being aware of it. Is that a BTS for the villain? 
<<<

Nah. If it was some kind of one-time trap, specifically set by the villain to ensnare those particular heroes, and we never se the villain in the issue itself ... that would probably count, since the villain was actively taking measures to thwart the heroes within the timeframe of the story. But I don't think that tripping a villain's general security measures should count. 


Quote: 
>>>
Rama-Tut's weapon saps the wills of his people, making them believe he is almost a god. So, is the appearance of anybody that had been hit by his ray a BTS appearance of him until it wears off? 
<<<

Nah. If the Red Skull breaks Captain America's arm, is every appearance of Cap in a cast also a BTS appearance of the Skull, until Cap's arm heals? 

If someone were to stagger onto panel, under the influence of some mysterious ray ... that would be a BTS for whoever fired the ray. Not until it wears off, but just the very first time we see them like that. And of course, if the ray-firing is later shown on-panel in a FB, it should probably nullify the initial BTS. 


Quote: 
>>>
Is there any thread where this has been discussed in detail? 
<<<

Not really, no. But these are good qustions -- keep asking! 


Quote: 
>>>
Here is what I have for Rama-Tut's appearances during FF 19 so far. 
<<<

I think Sean Kleefeld stuck all of these into an order in a recent-ish thread. If you can find it, it might save you a lot of work. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 May 2005 07:01 pm    
By Kang

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I think Sean Kleefeld stuck all of these into an order in a recent-ish thread. If you can find it, it might save you a lot of work. 
<<<

Found the thread. Here's to me reinventing the wheel!  

Thank you for those answers. They were exactly what I wanted to hear, so it is good to know that I was on the right track. 


Here is how this has all fleshed out. Just consider this all to have the **, since it is basically gutted and rebooted from scratch: 

PHARAOH RAMA-TUT/NATHANIEL RICHARDS 
YA 2-FB 
CA@ 11/4 pg 2 pn. 2 - pn. 3-FB (Nathan Richards walks around aimlessly) 
FF 19 pg. 10 pn. 1 - pn. 3-FB 
A 269 pg. 3 pn. 2 - pn. 3-FB 
FF 19 pg. 10 pn. 4-FB 
WI?2 39 
AVF 9 pg. 4 pn. 5-FB 
FF 19 pg. 10 pn. 5 - pn. 6-FB 
ROA 2 pg. 11 pn. 1-FB 
FF 19 pg. 11 pn. 1-FB 
ROA 2 pg. 11 pn. 2 - pn. 3-FB 
FF 19 pg. 11 pn. 2 - pn. 3-FB (slightly different than SKleefeld's version) 
ROA 2 pg. 11 pn. 4 - pg. 12 pn 3-FB (ditto) 
A 269 pg. 3 pn. 5-FB 
AVF 9 pg. 5 pn. 1-FB 
ROA 1 
ROA 2 
WCA2 20 
WCA2 21 
FF 19 pg. 6 - pg. 8-FB-BTS 
DRSTR2 53 pg. 9 pn. 4 - pg. 10 pn. 4 
ROA 3 pg. 7 pn. 1 - pn. 3 
WCA2 22 p. 10 pn. 1 (slightly different than SKleefeld's version) 
FF 19 pg. 9 pn. 1 - pn. 2 
ROA 3 pg. 7 pn. 5 - pg. 8 pn. 1 
FF 19 pg. 9 pn. 3 - pn. 4 
ROA 3 pg. 8 pn. 2 - pn. 4 
FF 19 pg. 9 pn. 5 - pg. 12 pn. 2 
AVF 9 pg. 5 pn. 2-FB 
DRSTR2 53 pg. 11 pn. 4 - pn. 5 
FF 19 pg. 12 pn. 3 - pn. 5 
ROA 3 pg. 10 pn. 3 - pg. 22 
ROA 4 pg. 1 - pg. 14 
FF 19 pg. 14 pn. 3 - pg. 16 pn. 2 
DRSTR2 53 pg. 16 pn. 1 - pn. 5 
FF 19 pg. 18 - 19 pn. 2 
ROA pg. 19 pn. 1-BTS 
FF 19 pg. 20 pn. 4 - pn. 6 
CA@ 11/4 pg. 6 pn. 1-FB-BTS 
A 269 pg. 4 pn. 4-FB 
FF@ 2/2 
See SCARLET CENTURION 
From SCARLET CENTURION 
A 8 pg. 8 pn. 1-FB 
C2 57 (This issue has a somewhat complicated path, but it is self-contained) 
A 8 pg. 8 pn. 2 - pn. 4-FB 
See KANG THE CONQUEROR 
From KANG THE CONQUEROR 
GSA 2-FB 
... 

SCARLET CENTURION 
From PHARAOH RAMA-TUT 
CA@ 11/4 pg. 6 pn. 5-FB (Scarlet Centurion takes on new ID) 
A@ 2 pg. 16 - pg. 17 pn. 4-FB 
WI? 29 pg. 2 pn. 5 - pg. 6 pn. 1-FB 
A@ 2 pg. 23 pn. 3-FB 
A 56 pg. 12 pn. 4-BTS ~ A@ 2 pg. 26 pn. 4-FB 
A@ 2 pg. 1 - pg. 39 pn. 2 
WI? 29 pg. 8 pn. 5-FB (*) 
A@ 2 pg. 39 pn. 3 - pg. 42 
See PHARAOH RAMA-TUT 

Note: It is hard to reconcile the WI? 29 and A@ 2 versions of the flashbacks. The first flashback can be written off as different versions of the same thing. The best sense I can make of the second one: The screen says the stuff in A@ 2 pg. 17 pn. 4-FB, then the Centurion appears in person in WI? 29 pg. 2 pn. 5 - pg. 3 pn. 5 and has a much more plausible debate with the team over the truth. Then, the part in A@ 2 pg. 17 pn. 5-6 happens afterward behind the Centurion's back to make sure that they really do trust him. 
*This scene is of the Avengers lunging toward the Scarlet Centurion. It does fit here, but only if Goliath shrunk down and got on Hawkeye's arrow in the confusion of the fight. 

SCARLET CENTURION | EARTH-S 
SQS 2 
SQS 9 
SQSGN 

Note: SQSGN refers to Squadron Supreme: Death of a Universe. Somebody else has probably already given it a name. 

Finally, Kang: 

KANG THE CONQUEROR/"VICTOR TIMELY" 
From PHARAOH RAMA-TUT 
**A 269 pg. 6 pn. 3 - pn. 6-FB 
**AVF 9 pg. 6 pn. 4 - pn. 6-FB 
**A 269 pg. 7 pn. 1-FB 
**A 8 pg. 8 pn. 5-FB 
{A 8} 
...

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 May 2005 07:23 am    
By Enda80

SCARLET CENTURION | EARTH-S 
**CA@ 11/4-FB 
**SQS 9-FB 
SQS 2 
SQS 9 
SQSGN 

Since CA@11/4 finally reveals exactly who this Scarlet Centurion is-a divergent version of the one who fought the Avengers-and features him in a one-panel fb, it merits inclusion. 

However, he is not a native of Earth-S, as revealed by CA@11/4. 

As pointed out by Sean Curtin 
SCARLET CENTURION | EARTH-S 
SQS 9-FB 
{SQS 2} 
SQS 9 

SQS 9 features a fb to 1970 with the Scarlet Centurion.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 11:12 am    
By Enda80

Kang wrote: 
>>>
M/:LG #?: While he never actually appeared, the First Line definitely mentioned meeting him in an issue. It would be cool if they made note of that. 

Prophet/Cable 1-2: I am not sure if this is canon. It seems to be through the magic of timetravel and Kang-ery that the two meet. The fact that Kang ends up trapped in the Cosmic Cube of the future (sorry if that was a spoiler!) at the end of the story probably means this is a divergent Kang. 

. 
<<<

Kang's Young Avengers Director's Cut bio references Prophet/Cable#1-2.

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject: Hulk2 147/2
By Dhall

Currently H2 147/2 is placed between H2 145 and 146. 

I fail to understand why. 
Hulk2 147/2 is a stand alone story with the Hulk wandering in the desert, where he sees a mirage of a town, which eventually fades away. There are two (clearly) Americans monitoring a seismograph. 

Now Hulk is wandering around Egypt between H2 145 and 146 so yes, the story could be forced in there if it had to be, but it doesn't need to be, as there is the space for it to occur in between issues 147 and 148, where the Hulk is wandering around a desert in US Southwest. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 07:05 am    
By  Paul Bourcier
Director

I think the placement comes right out of George Olshevsky's reference in Marvel Comics Index #7A. Under the entry for H2 147/2, he notes, "Story takes place while the Hulk is wandering the desert, in between stories in issues #145, 146."
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 10:25 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I think the placement comes right out of George Olshevsky's reference in Marvel Comics Index #7A. Under the entry for H2 147/2, he notes, "Story takes place while the Hulk is wandering the desert, in between stories in issues #145, 146." 
<<<

So all deserts are the same, huh?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 12:15 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Let it be noted that this isn't one of George's OFFICIAL Indexes. This placement wasn't approved by Marvel, so there's no need for us to prove it 100% officially wrong before our listings can deviate from it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 04:56 pm  
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote: 
So all deserts are the same, huh?  


We're not insisting on anything. Paul is simply providing the reasoning behind the original placement. We'll certainly entertain reasoned discussion on adjusting the chronologies. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 05:38 pm    
By Dhall

Well it's clear that the story is set in the American desert. The name "Adobe Flats" doesn't sound Egyptian to me. (Nor does Bob.) 

As such, it makes more sense to set it between two stories where the Hulk is in the American Southwest, rather than in Egypt. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 09:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It really makes one wonder why Olshevsky bothered to place H2 147/2 out of its logical numerical order between H2 147 and 148 to begin with... 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 11:59 am    
By shandrakor

I've got nothin'! There's no cliffhanger between them, and 148 refers to 147 as having happened "recently" - so there's no "yesterday" or "moments ago" to deal with. 

147/2 looks like it fits just fine between 147 and 148.

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 12:49 pm    Post subject: Astonishng Tales 1-20
By Dhall

**Allen, Dr. Paul 
AT 12-FB 
AT 8 
AT 10 
AT 11 
AT 12 
AT 13 

Calvin Dr. Wilma (Add first name to her listing) 
**AT 16-FB 
**AT 12-FB 
AT 12 
**AT 13 
**AT 15 
**AT 16 
**AT 17 
**AT 20 

CALVIN, PERCY RONALD "VINNIE" 
**AT 16-FB 
AT 15 
**AT 16 


**Damon 
AT 6-FB 
AT 6 
AT 7 

**Doomsman 
AT 1 / 2 
AT 2/2 
AT 3/2 

**Faceless One 
AT 2/2 
AT 3/2 

GAROKK 
**AT 3-FB 
AT 2 
AT 3 
AT 4 
AT 5 

GOG II 
ASM 104-FB 
{ASM 103} 
ASM 104 
ASM 111-FB 
AT 18-FB 
AT 17 
AT 18 
AT 19 <- Remove, character does not appear in this issue. 
S-M 21-BTS 
S-M 22 
S-M 23 

KA-ZAR/KEVIN PLUNDER 
KZ4 -1-FB <- In wrong place, delete 

**AT 11-FB 
DD 13-FB 
**AT 11-FB 
**KZ 4 -1-FB 
**AT 11-FB 
KZ3 14/2 
KZ3 15/2 
KZ3 16/2 
KZ3 17/2 
KZ3 18/2 
KZ3 19/2 
KZ3 21/2 
KZ3 22/2 
KZ3 23/2 
KZ3 24/2 
KZ4 -1 
AT 11-FB 
{UX 10-FB} 
UX 10 
.. 
AT 7 
SVT 1 <- Should be SVT 1/5 
ASM 103 
ASM 104 
**AT 9-FB 
AT 9 
AT 8 
AT 10 

MAA-GOR 
AA2 11-FB <- This should be AT 11-FB (not AA2) 
AT 20-FB <- Remove, character is not in this issue. 
{UX 10} 
DD 12 
DD 13 
AT 11 

Mockingbird 
**AT 12-FB 
AT 6 

**Plunder, Lord Robert 
AT 11-FB 
DD 13-FB 
AT 11-FB 
KZ4 -1-FB 
AT 11-FB 

**Plunder, Lady Blanche 
AT 11-FB 

PLUNDERER/LORD EDGAR PARNIVAL PLUNDER 
KZ4 -1 <-Delete, in wrong place 
**AT 11-FB 
DD 13-FB 
**AT 11-FB 
**KZ4 -1 FB 
**KZ 4 -1 
{DD 12} 
DD 13 
.. 
AT 11 
**AT 18-FB 
**AT 20-FB 
AT 17 
AT 18 
AT 19 
AT 20 

**Pusher 
AT 15 
AT 16 
AT 17 


Red Skull II 
CA 129 
**AT 4/2-FB 
AT 4/2 
AT 5/2 

RUDOLFO, PRINCE 
**AT 2/2-FB-BTS <-Rudolofo escapes BTS of this flashback 
AT1/2 ?- Should be AT1/2- BTS (as he appears only as a robot copy) 
AT 2/2 
AT 3/2 
SVTU 8 
SVTU 9 
SVTU 10 
SVTU 11 
SVTU 12 

VICTORIUS/PROF. VICTOR CONRAD 
**AT 20-FB 
AT 18 
AT 19 
AT 20 
GSM-T 1 
M/TIO 42 
M/TIO 43 


Zabu 
AT 7 
SVT 1 <- Should be SVT 1/5 
ASM 103 
ASM 104 
**AT 9-FB 
AT 9 
AT 8 
AT 10

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: SVT 1/3     
By Dhall

MAN-THING/THEODORE "TED" SALLIS 
GSM-T 5 
**SVT 1/3-FB 
** AT 12-FB 
{SVT 1} ?Should be SVT 1/3 
AT 12 
AT 13 

BRANDT, ELLEN 
M-T3 2-FB 
GSM-T 5 
**SVT 1/3-FB 
{SVT 1}?Should be SVT 1/3 
AT 12

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Sub-M 53,56, UX 64 Additions
By Dhall

**Dragon-Lord 
Sub-M 53-FB 
Sub M-52 
Sub-M 53 
Sub-M 54 

Vashti 
SUB-M 34 
SUB-M 37 
**SUB-M 56-FB 
SUB-M 56 
SUB-M 58 


SUNFIRE/SHIRO YOSHIDA 
**UX 64-FB 
UX 64 
**Sub-M 53-FB 
SUB-M 52 
SUB-M 53 
SUB-M 54

Last edited by Dhall on 10 Jan 2006 08:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 07:43 pm  
By Arthur
Director

Dhall wrote: 

Quote: 
SUNFIRE/SHIRO YOSHIDA 
**UX 64 
UX 64 
**Sub-M 53-FB 
SUB-M 52 
SUB-M 53 
SUB-M 54 



I presume you meant that as **UX 64-FB ?

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 08:06 pm    Post subject:      

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Quote: 

I presume you meant that as **UX 64-FB ? 


It is so edited.....thanks. 


			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 08:11 pm    Post subject: T 195-205 Additions
By Dhall

Thor 200 is an alternate future tale of Ragnarok, and as such should not be listed in the following chronologies: 
Balder 
Ego-Prime (who does not appear in the story anyway) 
Fandral 
Heimdall 
Hogun 
Loki 
Midgard Serpent/Jormungand 
Odin 
Surtur 
Volla 
Volstagg 

The only characters who do appear in the issue, in continuity, appear in the framing sequence, the Norns, Thor, and Pluto. 

Some additions for T 195-205: 

BRIGHTSWORD/CARTER DYAM 
**T 203-FB 
T 203 
T 291 
T 300 

EGO 
T 132 
T 133 
T 155 
T 160 
T 161 
T 199 <- Remove, he does not appear in this issue. 
T 201 <- Should be T 201-FB 

EGO PRIME 
T 201-FB 
**T 195-BTS 
**T 196-BTS 
**T 197-BTS 
**T 198 
**T 199 
T 200 <- Remove, he does not appear in this issue. 
T 201 
T 202 
T 203 
Q 14 
Q 15 

GRAND COMMISSIONER [RIGELLIAN] 
T 132 
T 133-BTS 
T 134-BTS 
**T 201-FB 

GRANT, SILAS 
T 197 
T 198 
T 199 
**T 201 
T 202 
T 203 
T 204 
T 205-BTS 
HARVEST/CHI LO 
**T 203-FB 
T 203 
T 291 
T 300 

Hemidall 
T 189 
T 193 
**T 203-FB 
T 200 
T 201 
T 202 
T 203 
T 204 

**Kamorr 
T 203-FB 
T 201 
T 202 
T 203 
T 204 

**Kartag 
T 196 
T 197 
T 199 

Loki 
T 195 
T 197 <- Remove, he does not appear in this issue. 
T 200 


**Satrina 
T 196 
T 197 

TANA NILE 
T 162 
**T 201-FB 
T 198 
T 199 
T 201 
T 202 
T 203 
T 204 
T 205-BTS

Last edited by Dhall on 16 Jan 2006 09:09 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 08:22 pm    
By Enda80

A few other Ragnarok ffws have happened elsewhere.

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: IRON MAN #251 - #300
By Arthur
Director

continuing the audit... 

[edited Feb 25, 2006 to correct page numbering] 


Iron Man #251 - #300 

* adjustment required (deletion, split entry, change of some nature) 
** new entries 


ALVAREZ, FELIX 

IM 285 
*IM 286 I do not see Felix in IM 286 
IM 292 
IM 293 
IM 294-FB (8:7 - 10:5) 12:00 noon - press conference 
**IM 294-FB (11:6 - 12:5) 3:30 pm ; SE - Cauwfield teleconference 
IM 295 


ARBOGAST, BAMBI 

IM 254 
**IM 255 
IM 256-FB 

 

Mrs. Arbogast is listed as a BTS in IM 287. Either this refers to 4:3 where the office phone rings and an off-panel unidentified person says I have an outside call for you, Mr. Rhodes, from a Ms. LaCoste  in which case, we hear the voice thus it is not a BTS but warrants a full listing  or it refers to 9:5 where Jim gets a crises call at home at night  no voice from the other end  in which case it IS a BTS but there is nothing to indicate that it is Mrs A on the other end. It could easily be head of security. If the former is indeed accepted as Mrs. Arbogast, she should also get a credit for IM 286 where a voice through the office intercom says Theres a Ms. LaCoste here to see you, Mr. Rhodes. (15:4). Accepting both the off-panel voices as Mrs Arbogast gives us: 


IM 285 
**IM 286 (15:4) 
*IM 287 (4:3) (remove BTS) 
IM 288 
*IM 292 Im not seeing her 
**IM 293 
IM 295 


BENNING, VERONICA 

IM 292 
*IM 294 Should be IM 294-FB; main story is specified as beginning at 7:57 pm. FB (3:6 - 4:6) Tonys physiotherapy session 5:47 a.m. 
IM 295 


BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA 

FF@ 25 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:4). IM 284 opens later in the day following Starks death and shows Jim Rhodes viewing a TV report about a statement released by Marcy Pearson (1  3:1). The flashback (4:2- 8:4) goes back to the early morning when Tony actually died, and shows Jim giving the first announcement to the media. The reactions of numerous friends and enemies of Tony Stark are depicted within the flashback. 
PUN/BW 


CABE, BETHANY 

IM 211 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
IM 297 
IM 300 


CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 

NF3 44 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
T 447 


CARTER, SHEILA 

**IM 292 
IM 293 


CAUWFIELD, WINSTON 

**IM 256-FB-BTS (FB 3:3-6:1) --- Tony is informed that Mr Cauwfield and Felix Alvarez are waiting in his office 
**IM 256-FB (FB2 7:5-9:1) Tony meets Mr. Cauwfield 
IM 294-FB (11:6-12:5; 1530 hrs teleconference 


DARE, KATHLEEN 

IM 248 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
IM 285 


*DEVASTATOR II/GREGORI 
Full name: Gregori Larionov IM 255 (18:3) 

ROM 44 
ROM 45 
IM 255 


DOCTOR DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM 

N 33 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
FF 376 


FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 

IM 282 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
NF3 33 


HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 

AWC 87 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
AWC 87 


HOGAN, HAROLD J. "HAPPY" 

IM 210 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
IM 292 


HOGAN, VIRGINIA "PEPPER" POTTS 

IM 210 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
IM 292 


HO YINSEN 

**IM 274-FB (7:3) Ho Yinsen is brought to Wong Chus camp to examine the Mandarins rings and create super-weapon 
IM3 31-FB Wong Chu gets tired of waiting and sends Yinsen to labor camp. 
TOS 39 
IM3 31-FB 
IM3 32-FB 
IM '00-FB 
IM '00-FB-BTS 


HSU, CHEN 

IM 274-FB 
IM 272-FB 
IM 274-FB 
*IM 259-BTS suggested removal: the BTS here derives from a scene where Stephen Wu, an underling of the Mandarin, reveals to the Mandarin that it was Chen Hsu who perpetrated a switch in rings. It should not be a BTS as whatever was done by Chen Hsu, was done PRIOR to IM 259. 
{IM 260} 
IM 261 
IM 263 
**IM 264 (9:1) (9:2) and (11) 
IM 265 


IRON MAN/TONY STARK 

*A:C-FB splitting current entry. (15:5/1) Tony on Tricycle 
**IM 285-FB (11:2-13:5 ) Tony remembers, as a small child, seeing his father drinking excessively 
**IM 286-FB (18:2  20:7) 5 yrs old, first erector set; learning life lessons from father; deteriorating homelife due to fathers drinking 
**IM 287-FB (13:6/2  14:6) Tony at 7 yrs; father decides to put him in boarding school; (15:1-16:1) early days at school; (16:2) Tony is 13, discovers Mallory and chivalry 
*A:C-FB splitting current entry. (15:5/3) Tonys first girlfriend; ~14 yrs? 
IM3 37-FB (6:2  6:5) teens at school 
IM 28-FB (Tony is 17) 
*IM 318-FB splitting current entry (3:1 - 5:4) early in university (advanced physics) 
**IM 288/2-FB (2:1-2:6) valedictorian and post school playboy indulgence 
IM:IA 1-FB (4:1  5:3) developed fuel formula for his father; still indulging 
*IM3 19-FB repositioned from after the AOI-FB. Tonys father is still alive when he was seeing Sunset Bain. (Tony didnt want him to find out he was dating an older woman). As Tonys parents died when he was still in school, this must be his last year of MIT post grad studies. 
*IM 318-FB splitting current entry (12  13:6) parents funeral 
**IM 288/2-FB (3:2-4:4) inquest into death of his parents; begins business life 
AOI-FB head of Stark Industries; meets Pepper Potts 

 

IM 293 
IM 294-FB (3:6  4:6) 0547 hrs - Tonys physio session 
**IM 294-FB (8:7- 10:5) 1200 hrs - press conference 
**IM 294-FB (11:6-12:6) 1530 hrs - SE-Cauwfield teleconference; 1920 hrs - prep for launch 
IM 294 
IM 295 


IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 

IM@ 13 
IM@ 13/4-FB 
**IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:4) 
IM 284 
IM 285 


LACOSTE, RAE 

IM 254 
*IM 256-FB-BTS suggested removal: Mrs. Arbogast goes over Tonys agenda for the day which includes a scheduled lunch with Ms. LaCoste at Spagos. 
IM 286 


LIVING LIGHTNING/MIGUEL SANTOS 

AWC 87 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:4) 
AWC 87 


MANDARIN 

TOS 62-FB (2:2  3:4) growth and beginning to wander 
**IM 274-FB (6:3) approaches mountain 
**TOS 62-FB (3:5  4:1) climbing to Valley of the Spirits 
**IM 274-FB (6:4 - 6:5) enters cave 
**TOS 62-FB (4:2  4:3) startled by dragon bones, stumbles 
**IM 274-FB (6:6) shocked at his discovery 
**TOS 62-FB (4:4) knows his find is of extra-terrestial origin 
**IM 274-FB (7:1) realizes its a spaceship 
**TOS 62-FB (4:5  5:4) enters the ship, learns about it, searches for power source 
**IM 274-FB (7:2) discovers rings 
**TOS 62-FB (5:5  6:6) takes rings, learns to use them 
*TTA 66-FB I have relocated this entry from after IM 267-FB; at least 10 years must pass between here and TTA 66 (circa TOS 64) for Madame Macabre to grow up. IM 267-FB is basically the same time as TOS 39 and certainly less than 10 years prior to TOS 64. 
IM 267-FB 
TOS 39-BTS 
IM 268-FB 
TOS 39-BTS 
IM 268-FB 


*OALKEY, CAL should read either OAKLY, DR. CAL (IM 248 7:1) or OAKLEY, DR. CAL (IM 292 3:4) 

**IM 248 
**IM 284-FB (4:2  8:3) 
**IM 290 
IM 292 
IM 293 
IM 299/2 


SAMURAI STEEL/YOSHIDA ASANO 

**IM 257-FB (8:4-8:7) Samurai Steels history 
IM 257 


SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF 

AWC 87 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
AWC 87 


SONDHEIM, ERICA 

IM 283 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
IM 285 


SPIDER-WOMAN II/JULIA CARPENTER 

AWC 87 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
AWC 87 


SPYMASTER II 

IM 254 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
IM 285 


STARK, HOWARD 

CA@ 9/2-FB 
NW 4-FB 
X:HC 4-FB 
CV 2-FB 
**IM 285-FB (11:2-13:5) Tony remembers, as a child, seeing his father drinking excessively 
**IM 286-FB (18:2 -20:7) Howard gives life lessons to Tony (Tony is 5-6 yrs old); Howard drinking and dancing with Maria 
**IM 287-FB (13:6/2  14:6) Howard decides to put Tony in boarding school (Tony is 7 yrs old) 
{IM 28-FB} 
IM:IA 1-FB 


STARK, MARIA CARBONELL 

CA@ 9/2-FB 
**IM 285-FB (11:2-13:5) Tony recalls his parents relationship 
**IM 286-FB (18:2 -20:7) Maria dancing with Howard; family board games 
**IM 287-FB (13:6/2  14:6) Howard tells Maria he has decided to put Tony in boarding school 


TECHNOVORE 

**IM 293 The Mutant assemblers that combine in IM 294 to become Technovore are present in IM 293 (22:4) 
IM 294 
IM 295 


THUNDERSTRIKE/ERIC KEVIN MASTERSON 

A@ 21 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
T 447 


TIGRA/GREER NELSON 

AWC 83 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
AWC 100 


USAGENT/CAPTAIN JOHN WALKER/"JACK DANIELS" 

AWC 87 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
AWC 87 


WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 

IW 4 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
IM 285 


WONDER MAN/SIMON WILLIAMS 

AWC 87 
*IM 284 This should read IM 284-FB (4:2- 8:3) 
AWC 87 


ZIMMER, ABE 

IM 290 
IM 294-FB (8:7- 10:5) Noon press conference 
**IM 294-FB (11:6  12:5) (3:30 pm) SE-Cauwfield teleconference 
IM 296

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 05:11 pm    Post subject: Characters involved in Heroes Reborn
By wolframbane

Could someone supply a list of which characters were transported by Franklin to the Heroes Reborn Universe (Avengers, FF, etc.)?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 10:33 pm    
By Jason Doty

I'll start this off and probably be corrected and others can add on. 

Mr. Fantastic, Thing, Invisable Woman, Human Torch, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Giant Man, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, and part of the Hulk.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 07:26 am    
By wolframbane

>Mr. Fantastic, Thing, Invisable Woman, Human Torch, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Giant Man, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, and part of the Hulk. 

I remember Wasp, Wonder Man, Vision and Dr. Doom as well. Was that everybody?

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 08:14 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sub-Mariner, the Royal Family of the Inhumans... 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 09:18 am    
By jannepie

She-Hulk. 

Although she was also seen in the main Earth during that time in some Avengers Annual. '99?

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jan 2006 03:15 am    
By JLH

Black Panther went. You can see him hiding behind the UPC box on the cover to Marvel Vision (which was an image lifted from O:MU) here.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/52133266528.10.GIF

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jan 2006 10:44 am    
By wolframbane

Alright, so a compiled list of all the charcters that were transported to the Heroes Reborn Universe (thus far): 

Black Panther, Captain America, Dr. Doom, Falcon, Giant-Man, Hawkeye, Hulk, Human Torch II, Inhumans, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Thing, Scarlet Witch, She-Hulk, Sub-Mariner, Thor, Vision, Wasp, and Wonder Man. 

Now the question arises: were any of them seen in the MU proper during their time in the Heroes Reborn Universe (like the She-Hulk)? Even moreso, were the all depicted in Heroes Return, when the FF an Avengers returned?

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 05:19 pm    Post subject: Characters from FF 416 BTS in O:MU
By wolframbane

At the end of FF 416, the Fantastic Four and several other heroes were leaving to Central Park to battle Onslaught. However, in O:MU, only Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben were depicted battling Onslaught. For the other heroes, I would suggest BTS listings for them. They include: Crystal, Ant-Man II, Medusa, She-Hulk, Nathaniel Richards, Kristoff Vernard, Lyja, Karnak, Gorgon, Black Bolt, Sub-Mariner, Black Panther, Devlor, Vibraxas, Huntara, Agatha Harkness, Ebony. 

Are there any I am missing, or are there any names I listed that are in error?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 08:01 pm    
By Somebody

Namor, Crystal and Panther were all clearly shown in O:MU (Crystal even gets a solo moment of rushing in). 

Of the others, She-Hulk, Medusa, Black Bolt, Triton, Karnak and Gorgon were on the boat home in HR:TR and thus should probably be BTS. 

Nathanel Richards, Kristoff, Ant-Man/Lang and Lyja were all shown NOT to have gone, and thus shouldn't be listed, while I'm not aware of Devlor, Vibraxas, Agatha Harkness, Ebony and Huntara being shown in the MU between O:MU and HR:TR, but they weren't on the ship back when it was specifically said everyone who went had to go back, and they weren't there or shown at any point during HR, so should be presumed not to have been BTS.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 12:07 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Agatha Harkness appears in SS3 135-137, which occur just before HR:R so she likely doesn't warrant a BTS in MU:O.

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 08:26 pm    Post subject: Hermes in Tales of Suspense#57-58 text
By Enda80

Oddly enough, Hermes appeared in a text story in Tales of Suspense#57-58. Does it count as Earth-616?

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 05:31 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Why is that odd? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 06:36 pm    
By Enda80

I forgot they still had text stories back then to fufill arcane postal rules. 

That, and it never occured to me to search those two page text stories for somebody with an entry.

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Thread 45

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 10:12 am    Post subject: Cable/DP #24 & New Tbolts #17 [SPOILERS]
By Somebody

This should be fun - Fury turns up at the end of the issue. According to Fabian here, he didn't know about the whole Fury/Secret War/New Avengers/Bendis-in-general mess until after the issue was done and dusted. 

So he's put a reference in #25 saying, and I quote: 
Fabian Nicieza wrote: 
>>>
We catch up to that continuity when Fury appears in our next issue, stating that weeks have passed between #24 and #25. 
<<<

So, basically, he's saying that he's retroactively intending C/D #24 to be pre-SWar 5. Like I said, fun  

Oh, and he retroactively retconned the Baron Strucker from the Wolverine Enemy of the State issues into an imposter ("How could anyone think that skinny old man was me!?") in New Tbolts #17, so there'll have to be some playing around with those chronologies to seperate the stuff out

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 12:44 am    
By Col_Fury

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Oh, and he retroactively retconned the Baron Strucker from the Wolverine Enemy of the State issues into an imposter ("How could anyone think that skinny old man was me!?") in New Tbolts #17 
<<<

I expected that to happen. I had the feeling that Fabian wasn't too thrilled with the Wolfgang's appearances there... 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
So, basically, he's saying that he's retroactively intending C/D #24 to be pre-SWar 5. 
<<<

What the hell...? 
Spider-Man says "I'm an Avenger now!" in C/DP #24, which puts this issue after A4 1-6, and therefore after Secret War. How can it be before Secret War? That, and Fury doesn't pose a problem anymore. He's been shown as head of SHIELD post-HoM in a few different books, and we're already past the HoM mark in C/DP, we have been for a few issues.  

A few weeks between C/DP 24 & 25 won't present any problems, unless they specifically reference Secret War as happening between those issues. If that happens, I think my head will explode. Twice.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 05:01 am    
By Somebody

Yeah, and Cage was an Avenger in his guest-spot too. 

I think the problem is one of Fabian being waaay outside the loop here, and he's still only partially informed of the situation...

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 06:28 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
That, and Fury doesn't pose a problem anymore. He's been shown as head of SHIELD post-HoM in a few different books 
<<<

Oh yeah. Fury's appeared as head of SHIELD in way too many places post-Raft now. C'mon A4 15...re-instate Fury!! We're countin' on ya.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 03:57 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I wouldn't get your hopes up.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 46

Posted: 11 Jan 2006 05:22 pm    Post subject: CA 149-153
By Dhall

H2 152, A 101, H2 153, seem to be out of order in Captain America's chronology. In CA 149 Cap and Nick Fury fight, leading to Cap quitting SHIELD. This is referenced in dialogue in H 152, meaining that CA 149, must precede this issue. Since CA 149 continues directly into CA 150, the best spot for H2 152, A 101, H2 153, are between CA 150 and 151. 


Captain America 
SGTF 100 
**CA 149 
**CA 150 
H2 152 
A 101 
H2 153 
CA 149 <- Remove 
CA 150 <- Remove 
CA 151 
CA 152 
CA 153 

Fury, Nick 
SGTF 100 
**CA 149 
H2 152 
CA 149 <-Remove 
CA 151 
CA 152 
CA 153 

Other CA corrections: 


JAKAR 
**CA 150-FB 
CA 149-BTS 
{CA 150} 
Q 14 
CP 6 
CPU 3 
CPU 3/2 

MISTER HYDE/CALVIN ZABO 
DD 31 
DD 32 
DD 61 
**CA 151-FB 
**CA 150 
CA 151 
CA 152 

SCORPION II/MACDONALD GARGAN 
ASMU 13-FB 
ASM 19 
ASM 20 
ASM 29 
ALIAS 23 
CA 122 
**CA 151-FB 
**CA 150 
CA 151 
CA 152 

**Courtney, Bob 
CA 149 
CA 152 
CA 153 
CA 154 
CA 156 
CA 158 
CA 159

Last edited by Dhall on 15 Jan 2006 11:33 pm; edited 6 times in total

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 07:31 pm    
By Somebody

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
H2 152, A 101, H2 153, seem to be out of order in Captain America's chronology. In CA 149 Cap and Nick Fury fight, leading to Cap quitting SHIELD. This is referenced in dialogue in H 152, meaining that CA 149, must proceed this issue.  
<<<

PRECEDE, not proceed. You proceed to a future point, meaning you essentially said the opposite of what you meant. 

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 08:19 pm    
By Dhall

Quite so, and so edited. Thanks.

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Since CA 149 continues directly into CA 150, the best spot for H2 152, A 101, H2 153, are between CA 150 and 151.  
<<<

My old notes say that CA 151 picks up in the early morning right after the night of CA 150. That's not right?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 11:18 pm    
By Dhall

At the very end of 150, Scorpion and Hyde are watching (through Cap's open window) Cap and Sharon kissing. 

CA 151 opens with Hyde and Scorpion wating outside Steve's place. Cap walks by feeling sorry for himself, thinking about how he is forbidden to see Sharon. 

So yes, it could very well be the next morning, or not. Nothing in CA 151 states that it has to be. (And the fact that Sharon's not around implies that it might not be.) 

Perhaps Hyde and Scorpion missed Cap that night, and came back the next night. Maybe they were hoping that Sharon would show up again, and they could attack her, instead of Cap. 

I'm open to any placement of H2 152-153, that can go somwhere between CA 149 and 153, but this one seems to work better than any alternative, that I've seen. It makes no sense to place H2 152-153 after Sharon's kidnapping, so where else?

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 07:04 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
In CA 149 Cap and Nick Fury fight, leading to Cap quitting SHIELD. This is referenced in dialogue in H 152 
<<<

Dave, do you have the exact line of dialogue? I'd like to make note of that. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 06:16 pm    
By Dhall

H2 152: 

Page 3: 
Cap: "Are you sure Both Fury and I have to be here sir. I'm not working for SHIELD now...at Fury's orders." 

Gerenal Ross: "I Know that...but we all have new orders from higher up!" 

Page 8: 
Fury: "Speakin' of Immediately...I don't like standing too close to Wing-Head here...And I think I'm going to cut out." 

Cap: "Fury's not quite himself these days General. * I apologize for him." 

Dialogue Box: "* See why in Cap's own book." 


Also note that H2 153 has a dialogue box indicating (as already listed in the MCP) that it occurs after A 101. 

There is also a dialogue box that says "He (Matt Murdock) Can't call the Defenders since nobody knows about them. -Stan." 

This implies that the Defenders title has already started at this point. 

Dave

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 06:23 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
This implies that the Defenders title has already started at this point.  
<<<

Not necessarily. The Defenders formed before DEF 1. Olshevsky places H2 152-153 between Hulk's appearances as a Defender in M/FEA 2 and 3 (not that Olshevsky's infallible, as we've seen...  ). 

Thanks for the added information, Dave. I'll need to ponder this a bit.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 11:06 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Not necessarily. The Defenders formed before DEF 1. 
<<<

Well presumably that's why no one knows about them. <grin> 

I'm more concerned about the Cap references, but for what is worth the MCP has this sequence for the Hulk: 
H2 152 
H2 153 
H2 154 
H2 155 
H2 156 
M/FEA 2 
M/FEA 3 
DEF 1 

which differs from: 
>>>
Olshevsky places H2 152-153 between Hulk's appearances as a Defender in M/FEA 2 and 3 
<<<

But if the Defenders are active, well the footnote would make sense if H2 152-153 go between M/FEA 2 and 3.

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Posted: 14 Jan 2006 11:14 am    
By Dhall

Looking over M/Fea 1-3, it appears that the cover is the only place that the name Defenders is used, so it would appear that the Defenders footnote probably isn't an important issue for placement here.

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Thread 47

Posted: 14 Jan 2006 04:01 pm    Post subject: M/Fea 2-3
By Dhall

THOMAS, JEANIE 
**A 83 
**M/FEA 2 
AA2 16 

**Fagan, Tom 
A 83 
T 206 
M/FEA 2 
T 207 
AA2 16 

Wong 
M/FEA 2 
**M/FEA 3-BTS 
M/PRM 4 
M/PRM 5 

XEMNU 
JIM 62 
JIM 66 
**M/FEA 3-FB 
M/FEA 3 
DEF 12

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Thread 48

Posted: 14 Jan 2006 08:15 pm    Post subject: Truman, Harry S.
By Dhall

**Truman, Harry S. 
CA 155-FB

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Thread 49

Posted: 14 Jan 2006 08:47 pm    Post subject: IM 49-FB
By Dhall

IM 49-FB showing Tony & Marianne on vacation. Where does this go? Where is there a break between stories? 

RODGERS, MARIANNE 
IM 36 
IM 37 
IM 40 
**IM 49-FB 
IM 41 

Iron Man 
H2 140 
IM 39 
IM 40 
AA2 8-FB-BTS 
A 93 
A 94 
A 95 
A 96 
A 97 
**IM 49-FB 
IM 41 
IM 42 

IM 49-FB Marianne and Tony Stark go on vacation. I am placing this fb between IM 40 and 41, as it has to happen before the storyline with the Guardmans death (as this is referenced in the flashback.) IM 41-46 are pretty much continuous so, Im placing it before those issues. 40 and 41 present a good break point. IM 41 starts with Marianne and Tony on a flight to Washington DC, so its not too hard to place their vacation right before IM 41.

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Thread 50

Posted: 14 Jan 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: ASM 109
By Dhall

SHA SHAN 
ASM 108-FB 
**ASM 109-FB 
ASM 109 

Osborn, Harry 
ASM 106 
ASM 107 
M/TU 5 
ASM 108 
**ASM 109 
ASM 110

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Thread 51

Posted: 15 Jan 2006 09:32 am    Post subject: GIBBON/MARTIN BLANK
By Dhall

GIBBON/MARTIN BLANK 
**ASM 110-FB 
ASM 110 
ASM 111 
ASM 112

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Thread 52

Posted: 14 Jan 2006 10:49 pm    Post subject: M/TU 5-6
By Dhall

Puppet Master 
A 63 
SUB-M 14 
CM 14 
FF 100 
**M/TU 5 
M/TU 5 
M/TU 6 

MONSTROID/BALIOX/7NH54 
A 97-BTS 
**M/TU 5 
{M/TU 5} 
M/PRM 24 

**Reiss, Jacob 
M/TU 6-FB

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Posted: 15 Jan 2006 11:19 am    
By Arthur
Director

Dhall wrote 

Quote: 
>>>
Puppet Master 
A 63 
SUB-M 14 
CM 14 
FF 100 
**M/TU 5 
M/TU 5 
M/TU 6 

MONSTROID/BALIOX/7NH54 
A 97-BTS 
**M/TU 5 
{M/TU 5} 
M/PRM 24  
<<<

Seeing as how M/TU 5 is already listed, I presume your new **M/TU-5 s are for the Flashback (4:1 - 7:5). 
If so, we do not actually see Monstroid in the flashback. The ship he is in crashes and is found by the Puppet Master, so **M/TU 5-FB-BTS. 

And while we're here, it should read MONSTROID/BALLOX/7NH54 (MTU 5 (10:1) ). 

so... 

PUPPET MASTER 

A 63 
SUB-M 14 
CM 14 
FF 100 
**M/TU 5-FB 
M/TU 5 
M/TU 6 

MONSTROID/BALLOX/7NH54 
A 97-BTS 
**M/TU 5-FB-BTS 
{M/TU 5} 
M/PRM 24

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Posted: 15 Jan 2006 12:36 pm    
By Dhall

Hmmn, for some reason when I cut and paste'd it did not grab the FB portion. 

Thanks Arthur.

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Thread 53

Posted: 15 Jan 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject: CA 158
By Dhall

The listings for the Porcupine, the Eel, Scarecrow or Plantman in CA 158, all should be changed to CA 158-BTS. 



**Man-Mountain Quint 
CA 154 
CA 157 
CA 158

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Thread 54

Posted: 01 Jan 2006 09:54 pm    Post subject: She-Hulk #3 (100) placements
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Anyone care to tackle the placement of: 
1) the several flashbacks in SHE-HULK v4 #3? 
2) the characters from the past who are whisked to the "present" to attend Jen's sentencing hearing in this issue? 

I'll start... 

I think the flashback (13p2-15p3) involving She-Hulk, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, and Captain Marvel II (who is "still kinda new" at superheroics) belongs shortly after A 227. 
So for everyone except Wanda, the chronology would go... 
A 227 
*S-H4 3-FB* 
H2 281 
For Wanda, it would go... 
M/FAN 6 
*S-H4 3-FB* 
A 228 
(Jan does have a fashion business by this point, doesn't she?) 

I think that Captain America, Captain Marvel II, Jarvis, Scarlet Witch, Starfox, Thor, and Hawkeye (with his leg in a cast) are whisked to the hearing shortly after Starfox joins the team in A 232 (1-19) to replace Hawkeye, who broke his leg. 
For Hawkeye, the sequence would go... 
A 232 
*S-H4 3* 
A 233 
For Jarvis, it would go... 
A 231 
*S-H4 3* 
A 234 
For Captain America... 
A 231 
*S-H4 3* 
M/TU 128 
For Wanda... 
A 231 
*S-H4 3* 
M/FAN 58/2 
For Thor, Wasp, Captain Marvel II, and Starfox... 
A 231 
*S-H4 3* 
A@ 12
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 07:33 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I'll be picking up the issue tomorrow and will try to post my thoughts over the weekend.

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 09:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sounds good, Sean. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 03:48 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I haven't looked too closely at the Avengers yet, but your reasoning sounds about right, Paul. 

As for the FF, I'm guessing that since Ben is in attendance and the rest of the team seems unsurprised by his presence, it must be after his return from Beyonder's Battle World in FF 277. FF 278-284 is a pretty tight arc, as is 289-292. At that point we get in Ben mutating and eventually returning to the FF, so the FF's appearance here likely is between FF 284 and 289. 

Interestingly, we already have that FF@ 19/A@ 14 crossover which has a sort-of Skrull Civil War right in that little area. So it would make sense that the FF learn about the Djaigon assination attempt in or around that story. However, since Wyatt Wingfoot is with the FF during the adventure, the FF would have needed to return to Earth to pick him up for some reason. I would suggest placing the Djaigon adventure flashback immediately after FF@19 since that story ends with the FF still on their way home to Earth. 

Their appearance in the courtroom would obviously have to place sometime after that, but not too much longer as Wyatt is still quite smitten with She-Hulk. How about right after FF 300? Before that, Ben's still upset with his appearance and has one of those bucket-helmets. Much later than that and Wyatt and Jen have broken up. 

As for Razorback, Jen spent most of her time with him just prior to Sensational #50. However, in #44-45, she and Razorback are held in capativity and from #45-49, she's switched bodies with Weezi Mason. By the time they switch back, they're back on Earth and Razorback's gone. I'll have to look into this one some more. 

John Byrne appears in the courtroom, wearing a Superman logo on his chest, so I'm guessing his appearance here coincides with his work on DC's Man of Steel. Place him between FF 262 and AF 105. 

Hulk I've got no clue about.

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 06:19 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
John Byrne appears in the courtroom, wearing a Superman logo on his chest, so I'm guessing his appearance here coincides with his work on DC's Man of Steel. Place him between FF 262 and AF 105.  
<<<

Or could it be a reference to his recent work on Action Comics?

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 07:44 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

The first flashback with She-Hulk fighting the Grappler, (with Jennnifer in her "Savage" outfit) must occur shortly after Savage She-Hulk #25, (the end of her first solo series). Her father knows she's the She-Hulk by this point, and she's still lurking around Los Angeles, before heading off to NYC to join the Avengers. 

S-H 24 
S-H 25 
*S-H4 3* 
M/DS 1 
DAZZ 14-FB-BTS 
DAZZ 14 
M/TIO 88 
A 221 

Quote: 
>>>
Hulk I've got no clue about. 
<<<

It's pretty obvious this is the "Merged Hulk" from the early 90's. This appearance can be put in any spot in Hulk's chronology from around that point. Since "Merged Hulk" is feeling pretty sorry for himself, (he says that helping to create the She-Hulk was the "one thing that's made my life worthwhile") then maybe between IH2 432 and IH2 433? Around those issues, Hulk had been through a series of depressing situations. I'd say it's definently after the destruction of the Pantheon, (that was a big blow in his life).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 07:58 pm    
By Somebody

Even if he's drawn nothing like the Merged Hulk (who had Bruce Banner's human face).

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 08:04 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
John Byrne appears in the courtroom, wearing a Superman logo on his chest, so I'm guessing his appearance here coincides with his work on DC's Man of Steel. Place him between FF 262 and AF 105.  
<<<

Or could it be a reference to his recent work on Action Comics? 
<<<

I thought of that actually, but he's got a line that speaks to She-Hulk breaking continuity. Considering that he left She-Hulk to work at DC and Man of Steel over what was essentially a continuity debate, I think that his placement there makes more sense.

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 11:03 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Even if he's drawn nothing like the Merged Hulk (who had Bruce Banner's human face). 
<<<

 Huh? You can make out Banner's human face on the Hulk? It's not like the Hulk wore glasses during that period...how could you tell? 

Granted, Lee Weeks draws a pretty mean faced Hulk in this issue, but look at the way the Hulk talks here: "I'm Dr. Bruce Banner, the Hulk. And I've got something to say." So Banner and the Hulk are one in the same here. That means it's either Banner in control of Hulk's body, (from the early 1980's)...or it's "Merged Hulk", (from Peter David's run). 

Just look at the outfit the Hulk is wearing in S-H4 3: it's almost exactly like the type of outfit Hulk was wearing in those Peter David issues.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 08:50 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
As for Razorback, Jen spent most of her time with him just prior to Sensational #50. However, in #44-45, she and Razorback are held in capativity and from #45-49, she's switched bodies with Weezi Mason. By the time they switch back, they're back on Earth and Razorback's gone. I'll have to look into this one some more. 
<<<

Did some more research here. She-Hulk meets Razorback for the first time in Sensational #6. He kidnaps her (sort of) and there's a quick adventure involving U.S. Archer and Xemnu the Titan. At the end of the story, Razorback goes one way with his Big Pig III and She-Hulk drives back to Earth in her brand new, converted-for-space-flight 1959 Dodge. So it doesn't look like there's a lot of room to drop the Piratasaurs from Planet Zed episode described in SH 100. 

But, wait! For some reason we have a "two days later" at the end of the Xemnu storyline in Sensational #7 before we start the epilogue in which Razorback leaves. They're still in outer space, Razorback's record has been cleared, he's obtained the Big Pig III, She-Hulk changes clothes between scenes already... So we can drop in the flashback from pages 21-22 of SH 100 in between page 19 panels 3 and 4 of Sensational #7.

			*	*	*

Thread 55

Posted: 16 Jan 2006 09:17 am    Post subject: Thor 208
By Dhall

4-D MAN/MERCURIO 
**T 204 (as Karl Sarron) 
T 208 
T 214 
T 215 
T 216 


Karnilla 
T 206 
T 207 
T 208 <-Remove, Karnilla is not in this issue 
T 209 
T 210 

Sif 
T 207 
T 208 <-Remove, Sif is not in this issue 
T 209 
T 210 

Odin 
T 203 
T 204 
T 208 <-Remove, Odin is not in this issue 
T 212

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Thread 56

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:01 am    Post subject: Scott McDaniel BTS in Green Goblin?
By rhod

In GG1, Ben Urich is writing a book about Norman & Harry Osborn. In one panel, there is a picture of the goblin, with a post-it note that reads 
"Preliminary look jacket design. What do you think. Call me. Scott" 

The picture is very similar to the actual cover of GG1, by Scott McDaniel, and is clearly an in-joke, but would it qualify as a BTS appearance. I know that many other writers and artists 'exist' in the MU

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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:19 am    
By garbonzo

Seems like a bit of a stretch as we don't know for sure that "Scott" is Scott McDaniels. In addition, this would be like saying every time Peter Parker looked at a note that said "love you Tiger" from MJ that she should get a BTS. I think the BTS should have some impact on the story. 

But I Digress. It's Just One Fan's Opinion. Blah Blah Blah 
garbonzo

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:18 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
this would be like saying every time Peter Parker looked at a note that said "love you Tiger" from MJ that she should get a BTS. 
<<<

I think she should. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:35 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, assuming we hadn't seen the note before, yes. I don't see how it's functionally different from receiving a full-blown letter, which would certainly merit a BTS. 

By their nature, civilian supporting characters tend to make their BTS appearances in rather banal ways.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:44 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

But I think there's something to be said for Garbonzo's first point. 

By and large, Marvel bullpenners make their appearances in the Marvel Universe, as Marvel bullpenners. If this is intended to be someone named Scott who designed a jacket in the Marvel universe, I think it's a stretch to say it's definitively Scott McDaniel. 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Thread 57

Posted: 16 Jan 2006 09:40 am    Post subject: She-Hulk: Ceremony
By SKleefeld
Director

I was doing that research on She-Hulk and Razorback and came across an obscure bit of information. In Sensational #7, Jen is partially transformed into a sort of She-Xemnu with lots and lots of extra body hair. When we see Jen as her normal self again, she says, "I'm still smarting from the laserolosis your wife gave me. You're certain it's permanent?" To which Al replies, "It'll last as long as there's stars in the sky, She-Hulk." 

The implication here is that She-Hulk should never have to shave any unsightly female body hair ever again. 

This was, I believe, a very intetional bit that John Byrne tried to establish. I have a quote here (which I admittedly have not been able to verify) where he says, "her hair doesn't grow. Don't ask me how the hair on her head got there or about her hair anywhere else." I believe the laserolosis was his way of putting that into official continuity. 

Then came the whole stink about the leg-shaving joke in She-Hulk: Ceremony. Basically, Jen's shown trying to shave her legs and she keeps breaking the razors. There's a small pile of broken razors next to the tub and Jen thinks that she ought to have Reed whip up something more efficient. This is what John Byrne quit to head to DC over. 

There's the back-story. Now, with regard to the MCP, we currently have She-Hulk's chronology thus... 

S-H2 6 
S-H2 7 
S-H2 8 
S-H2 9 
S-H2 10 
S-H2 11 
S-H:C 1 
S-H:C 2 

If She-Hulk had permanent full-body hair removal, though, there'd be no reason for her to shave her legs, much less continue to do so after breaking several razors. So, unless there's a compelling reason otherwise, wouldn't it make more sense for the leg-shaving scene to occur before the laserolosis, thus... 

S-H:C 1 
S-H:C 2 
S-H2 6 
S-H2 7 
S-H2 8 

There's a nice break before S-H2 6, I don't see any other characters offhand that such a change would actually impact, and I don't see any in-story reason to place the series any further forward or back.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2006 09:55 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
This is what John Byrne quit to head to DC over. 
<<<


I'm sorry, but...he quit over THAT?!?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2006 09:57 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It may have been a "last straw" thing. As I understand it, his major complaint was the breakdown of his working relationship with editor Bobbie Chase.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 09:58 am    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I'm sorry, but...he quit over THAT?!? 
<<<

Remember just who we're talking about....

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2006 01:39 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

I seem to recall asking about She-Hulk: Ceremony's placement on the old posting board a few years ago because it was in the key but not in the chronologies. I was told, then, that the series was noncanon. I don't remember why it was ruled noncanon or even if it was explained. If I'm remembering correctly, why the reversal?

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 06:25 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I believe the book's canoncity was called into question because there's references to Wyatt's family that seemingly contradict previously established continuity. Something to do with his father and/or grandfather IIRC. 

It got me thinking about how many issues really are embedd in Wyatt's history. I think his tribe was renamed at least a few times, not to mention that it was located all over the American South West at various times. Plus I think writers have added all sorts of family members at various points.

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Thread 58

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 11:05 pm    Post subject: IRON MAN 267-268, TALES OF SUSPENSE 39
By Arthur
Director

The biggest challenge with the current section of Iron man I've been auditing (Issues #251 - #300) was the blending of Iron Mans origin in TOS 39 with the retelling as told in IM 267 and IM 268. Indeed there are parts that are irreconcilable (noted below). 

Other parts have virtually identical panel art but new scripting (also noted below). 

I dont know what analysis of this has gone on before or if decisions were made to exclude the latter parts (Iron Mans battle with Wong Chu) where the paneling is virtually reprinted. Because of the new scripting, I attempted to blend as much as I could excluding only the truly irreconcilable. 

Here then, is MY blend of TOS 39 and IM 267-FB/IM 268-FB, followed by the chronologies of the characters involved: 


TOS 39 2:1-2:7 Tony Stark convinces the military to use his transistor powered weapons. 
TOS 39 3:3-3:6 intro Wong Chu, bullying a village. 
TOS 39 4:1-4:4 field test - routes enemy; military satisfied; 

[GAP  Tony Stark goes back to US; factory built in SE Asia] 

IM 267-FB 14:4/2 - 20:2 Tony arrives in SE asia; this is at least his second visit (17:1 quote Tony Stark, "I'd almost forgotten how impressive that site is."). Driven to plant by Toshi Kanada. Mandarin gives orders to Wong Chu. Tony and Toshi are attacked by Wong Chu's men. 
TOS 39 4:5 While running to escape, Tony approaches a trip wire, 
IM 267-FB 20:3 and trips a booby trap. 
TOS 39 4:6 Explosion! 
IM 267-FB 20:4 Tony is thrown through the air into the jungle 
TOS 39 4:7 to be found by one of Wong Chu's men. 
IM 267-FB 20:5 - 22:2 Wong Chu's arrives; Tony is transported to camp. 
TOS 39 4:8 - 5:1 Wong Chu's doctor examines Tony and reports status; Wong Chu plans to use Starks genius. 
IM 267-FB 22:3 - 27:2/1 Tony comes around, sees and talks with Yinsen; he is sent for and brought to Wong Chu. 
IM 267-FB 27:2/2 - 29:1 (also IM 268-FB 2:2 - 2:3) Tony refuses 'hospitality'; Wong Chu orders him disciplined; Tony fights back. 
IM 267-FB 29:2 - 29:3 He takes some hits, straining; 
IM 267-FB 29:4 Tony being held and his heart trouble begins; 
IM 268-FB 2:4 Tony is let go and starts to collapse. 
IM 267-FB 29:5 - 30 Tony falls, lying alone on floor. 
IM 268-FB 2:5 Tony lies on the floor; he is approached by a Wong Chu servant & Yinsen. 
IM 268-FB 3:1 - 4:4 Yinsen convinces Wong Chu to allow him to take Tony back to lab and tend to him; 

[later same day: after Tony regains consciousness, Yinsen is taken away off-panel and Tony is alone in lab. Wong Chu realizes force may not work and plans to appeal to American selfishness.] 

TOS 39 5:2 - 5:6 Wong Chu makes an offer to ''design weapon and you get surgeon'; Tony works all night creating life support armour design. 
TOS 39 5:7 - 6:5 [next day] Wong Chu returns Yinsen. Tony and Yinsen work for days to create armour. 
IM 268-FB-FB 14:1/2 - 14:2 Tony and Yinsen are overheard talking about the project. 
IM 268-FB 8:3 - 14:4 Wong Chu meets with and then flees from Mandarin; he is informed that Tony and Yinsen plan to escape with help of a friend. 
IM 268-FB 15:4 - 16:1 Tony and Yinsen finish the armour. 
TOS 39 6:6 Armour is ready to put on. 
TOS 39 7:1 - 7:2 Tony is wired up and the charging of the suit begins. *** Tony is in full armour. 
IM 268-FB 16:2 Mid process, attuning the suit to Tonys natural bioelectricy *** Tony is in breastplate only 
TOS 39 7:3 Yinsen sees warning light flashing. 
IM 268-FB 16:3 - 16:4 Yinsen verifies it is Wong Chu; he notes that he cannot allow the armor to fall into Wong Chus hands. 
TOS 39 7:4 Yinsen decides to buy time by sacrificing himself. 
IM 268-FB 16:5 - 16:6 Yinsen refuses Tonys offer to help  the armor isnt ready yet; he runs out of the lab. 
TOS 39 7:5 Yinsen slams door (locking it) yelling "death to Wong Chu". 
[IM 268 16:6 virtually same panel as TOS 39 7:5] 
TOS 39 7:6/1 Yinsen is shot off panel 
IM 268-FB 17:1 Tony is aware of Yinsen's death 
TOS 39 7:6/2 and swears to avenge it. 

[Here is the irreconcilable section in the two accounts: 
1. TOS 39 8:1 -8:6 *** Tony was fully armoured when getting charged up by Yinsen and now gets off of the table and practices balance. 
2. IM 268-FB 17:2-18:1 *** Tony was only wearing the chestplate when getting charged up, and now gets off of the table and puts on armour. 
[I go with the original.] 

TOS 39 8:1 - 8:6 Tony gets off of the table and practices balance. 
TOS 39 8:7 - 9:5 Wong Chu starts to have lab door smashed down; Tony ( now as Iron Man) activates his boot jets for the first time. 
IM 268-FB 18:2 - 18:4 Wong Chu breaks in, berates guard. Iron man hiding in shadows above them. 
TOS 39 9:6 - 9:7 Wong Chu finds no weapons. Still in the lab, Wong Chu orders a search. 
[IM 268-FB 18:3 virtually same panel as TOS 39 9:6] 
IM 268-FB 18:5 Now outside the lab, Wong Chu gets perimeter search going; calls for chief guard to punish. 
TOS 39 9:8 Iron Man picks up overcoat 
IM 268-FB 18:6 Iron Man picks up hat 
TOS 39 10:1 Wong Chu (over beaten guard) challenged by disguised Iron Man. 
IM 268-FB 18:7 - 19:1 Iron Man taunts Wong Chu; Wong Chu guesses the stranger is his American prisoners friend 
TOS 39 10:2 and demands to see face. 
IM 268-FB 19:2/1 Iron Man agrees to unmask; 
TOS 39 10:3 he starts to remove the coat. 
IM 268-FB 19:2/2 Iron Man, still holding the coat, continues taunting. 
TOS 39 10:4 - 10:6 Wong Chu in shock (first sight); Iron Man becomes threatening 
IM 268-FB 19:3 Iron Man picks up Wong Chu, 
TOS 39 10:7 - 10:9 does an airplane spin and tosses Wong Chu away 
[IM 268-FB 19:3 virtually same panel as TOS 39 10:7] 
IM 268-FB 19:4 - 19:5 Wong Chu lands but is still full of bravado; 
TOS 39 11:1 - 11:2 he orders the guards to shoot, then to bring up heavy artillery. 
[IM 268-FB 19:5-19:6 virtually same panels as TOS 39 11:1  11:2] 
IM 268-FB 19:6 Iron Man notices the heavy artillery 
TOS 39 11:3 - 11:5 Iron Man reverses charge, boosts power, and repels the bazookas & the grenades. 
IM 268-FB 19:7 The soldiers realize it is futile. 
[IM 268-FB 19:7 virtually same panel as TOS 39 11:5] 
TOS 39 11:6 The soldiers start to flee despite Wong Chu ordering them to stay. 
IM 268-FB 20:1 - 20:2 Wong Chu joins the flight and runs into a building. 
TOS 39 11:7 - 12:3 Wong Chu runs upstairs and starts to use a loudspeaker. Iron Man overrides it and gives his own speech; he then examines the locked door 
IM 268-FB 20:3 - 20:4 and decides to field test finger saw blade. 
TOS 39 12:4 - 12:5 Iron Man saws through the door and then demands surrender; Wong Chu blusters. 
IM 268-FB 20:5 - 20:6 Iron Man continues to talk; Wong Chu pushes a weighted file cabinet down the stairs on Iron Man 
TOS 39 12:6 The file cabinet knocks Iron Man down the stairs. 
IM 268-FB 20:7 Wong Chu runs past the fallen Iron Man 
TOS 39 12:7 - 13:1 and out the door. Iron Man is slow to push off the weighted cabinet. 
[IM 268-FB 20:4 - 20:7 virtually same panels as TOS 39 12:4  12:7] 
IM 268-FB 22:1 - 22:2 Iron Man gets leverage; notes need to modify the armour; 
TOS 39 13:2 He also notes that his energy is low. 
IM 268-FB 22:3 Iron Man decides on oil spray to stop Wong Chu 
TOS 39 13:3 - 13:4 sprays and "estimated it right"..lights oil 
IM 268-FB 22:4 oil alight 
[268 22:1  22:4 virtually same panels as TOS 39 13:1  13:4] 
IM 268-FB 24:2 Wong Chu almost at jungle foliage. 
TOS 39 13:5 Boom! 
[IM 268-FB 22:5 virtually same panel as TOS 39 13:5] 
IM 268-FB 24:3 - 24:4 Mandarin watches as Wong Chu is thrown into jungle and crawls into underbrush. 
IM 268-FB 25:1 - 25:5 Mandarin accosts and crushes Wong Chu. 
IM 268-FB 22:6 Iron Man searches for and fails to find Wong Chu - flames have died down. 
TOS 39 13:6 - 31:7 Iron Man recharges; dons hat and coat. 
[IM 268-FB 22:6 virtually same panel as TOS 39 13:6] 
IM 268-FB 26:1 - 26:4 Iron Man departs, being watched by Mandarin. 



IRON MAN/TONY STARK 

Currently in MCP: 
IM 267-FB 
{TOS 39} 
IM 268-FB 
TOS 39 
IM 268-FB 

If blending accepted in toto 

TOS 39 2:2 - 4:4 
IM 267-FB 14:4/2 - 20:2 
TOS 39 4:5 
IM 267-FB 20:3 
TOS 39 4:6 
IM 267-FB 20:4 
TOS 39 4:7 
IM 267-FB 20:5 - 22:2 
TOS 39 4:8 
IM 267-FB 22:3 - 29:4 
IM 268-FB 2:4 
IM 267-FB 29:5 - 30 
IM 268-FB 2:5 - 3:4 
TOS 39 5:2 - 6:5 
IM 268-FB-FB 14:1/2 - 14:2 
IM 268-FB 15:4 - 16:1 
TOS 39 6:6 - 7:2 
IM 268-FB 16:2 
TOS 39 7:3 
IM 268-FB 16:5 
TOS 39 7:6/1 
IM 268-FB 17:1 
TOS 39 7:6/2 - 9:5 
IM 268-FB 18:2 - 18:4 
TOS 39 9:6 - 9:8 
IM 268-FB 18:6 
TOS 39 10:1 
IM 268-FB 18:7 - 19:1 
TOS 39 10:2 
IM 268-FB 19:2/1 
TOS 39 10:3 
IM 268-FB 19:2/2 
TOS 39 10:4 - 10:6 
IM 268-FB 19:3 
TOS 39 10:7 - 10:9 
IM 268-FB 19:4 
TOS 39 11:2 
IM 268-FB 19:6 
TOS 39 11:3 - 11:5 
IM 268-FB 19:7 - 20:1 
TOS 39 11:8 - 12:3 
IM 268-FB 20:3 - 20:4 
TOS 39 12:4 - 12:5 
IM 268-FB 20:5 - 20:6 
TOS 39 12:6 
IM 268-FB 20:7 
TOS 39 12:7 - 13:1 
IM 268-FB 22:1 - 22:2 
TOS 39 13:2 
IM 268-FB 22:3 
TOS 39 13:3 - 13:4 
IM 268-FB 22:4 
IM 268-FB 24:2 
IM 268-FB 22:6 
TOS 39 13:6 - 13:7 
IM 268-FB 26:1 - 26:4 


HO YINSEN 

Currently in MCP: 

IM3 31-FB 
TOS 39 
IM3 31-FB 
IM3 32-FB 
IM '00-FB 
IM '00-FB-BTS 

If blending accepted in toto 

IM 274-FB 9:3 Ho Yinsen is brought to Wong Chus camp to examine the Mandarins rings and create super-weapon 
IM3 31-FB 
IM 267-FB 22:3 - 27:1 
IM 268-FB 2:5 - 4:4 
TOS 39 5:7 - 6:5 
IM 268-FB-FB 14:1/2 - 14:2 
IM 268-FB 15:4 - 16:1 
TOS 39 6:6 - 7:2 
IM 268-FB 16:2 
TOS 39 7:3 
IM 268-FB 16:3 - 16:4 
TOS 39 7:4 
IM 268-FB 16:5 - 16:6 
TOS 39-BTS 7:5 - 7:6 
IM3 31-FB 
IM3 32-FB 
IM '00-FB 
IM '00-FB-BTS 

WONG CHU 

Currently in MCP: 
IM 267-FB 
{TOS 39} 
IM 268-FB 
TOS 39 
IM 268-FB 
IM '00-FB 
IM3 32 
IM '00 

If blending accepted in toto 

{TOS 39} 3:3 - 3:6 
IM 267-FB 18:1 - 22:1 
TOS 39 4:8 - 5:1 
IM 267-FB 27:1 - 30 
IM 268-FB 2:5 - 4:4 
TOS 39 5:2 - 5:7 
IM 268-FB 8:3 - 16:6 
TOS 39 7:5 - 8:7 
IM 268-FB 18:2 - 18:4 
TOS 39 9:6 - 9:7 
IM 268-FB 18:5 
TOS 39 10:1 
IM 268-FB 18:7 - 19:1 
TOS 39 10:2 
IM 268-FB 19:2 
TOS 39 10:4 - 10:6 
IM 268-FB 19:3 
TOS 39 10:7 - 10:9 
IM 268-FB 19:4 - 19:5 
TOS 39 11:1 - 11:6 
IM 268-FB 20:1 - 20:2 
TOS 39 11:7 - 12:5 
IM 268-FB 20:5 - 20:6 
TOS 39 12:6 
IM 268-FB 20:7 
TOS 39 12:7 
IM 268-FB 22:2 
TOS 39 13:2 
IM 268-FB 22:3 
TOS 39 13:3 - 13:4 
IM 268-FB 22:4 
IM 268 24:2 - 25:5 
IM '00-FB 
IM3 32 
IM '00

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 05:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

This raises an interesting question about how the MCP should deal with elaborated re-tellings of earlier material which follow the general thrust of the original scene but are irreconcilable in significant respects. (In other words, something more than just a minor dialogue change or two - I'm thinking of flashbacks where the same basic thing is happening, but in an obviously different way.) 

It would seem to make little sense to pick and choose individual panels or extracts from the later version and attempt to interweave them with the original, while disregarding the irreconcilable bits. If the new version as a whole doesn't fit, then it either fails in its entirety, or it supersedes the original version and shoves it out of canon. It's rather meaningless to say that two scenes fit together in a particular way when, in reality, they don't fit together at all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 07:19 am
By Dhall

If something is truly irreconcilable, I usually take the original as what actually occured, and later retellings, as how the characters remember it occuring. Human memory is after all, a funny thing. 

Dave

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 10:55 am    
By Chris McCarver

I'd be interested to see how or even if the new retelling of the origin in IM4 5 is going to be incorporated.
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 04:18 pm    
By John Simons

Although Im an avid follower of this board, theres really not much I can contribute 99% of the time, either because I dont have the books in question, or someone else steps up with an explanation or answer before Ive even read the original post. In this rare case, however, I actually have something to add, because I, too, have tried to streamline Iron Mans origin. 

Of course the first question I might be asked is, if I had this handy why not post it before now? In fact, this origin examination is only part of a larger project I was working on to suggest revisions to Shellheads entire early history, right up until the end of IRON AGE. Its something Ive been hacking away at in my spare time, although unfortunately with a new baby in the house Ive had precious little of that lately. 

Through the modern miracle of cut n paste, however, I can slice out the origin stuff from the larger post I was working on. Its interesting to compare and contrast Arthurs and my versions, although it may seem a little confusing at first because Arthur apparently counts ad pages while I only count story pages, so initally our notations may not seem to match although actually in most cases they do... 

------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Now we get into Iron Mans origin. The current listing of TOS 39 and IM 267 and 268 seems woefully inadequate to convey how the originally published story interweaves with Byrnes expansion of it. To tell the truth, Byrne did his best to change things around and make it his own, and supplant the original Lee/Heck version entirely. But I think I found a way to make the scenes from both stories fit together, and Ive thrown in the quick retelling from IM3 50, to boot. Initially I even planned to work in the Roy Thomas retelling from IM 47, but eventually came to the realization that Thomas fiddled with the dialogue just enough that we must view this FB as basically the same as TOS 39, but that Tony is slightly misremembering who said what when. Anyway, I realize that Spider-Mans origin is considered a special case and the MCP doesnt usually break stories down to this level, but just for the hell of it: 

IRON MAN 267- FB (p 10 pn 4- p 16 pn 2) Stark arrives in Southeast Asia, and is met at the airport by Toshi Kanada. Their jeep is under surveillence by Wong Chu and the Mandarin. The jeep is attacked by soldiers under Wong Chus command. It is clear that Byrne intends this scene to substitute for the previous version of how Tony was injured and got the shrapnel in his heart. However, it changes the story too much, as previous versions established that a) Tony was already in Nam when he was injured; not on his way from the airport and b) he was walking through the jungle in the company of soldiers, not alone other than Kanada. In order to make this scene jibe with other tellings of Iron Mans origin, we must assume that the scene ends after panel 2 of page 16, and that the two men successfully escaped injury. There is a space of a day or more between panels 2 and 3, before someone triggers that fateful tripwire. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, TOSHI KANADA, MANDARIN, WONG CHU 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 2- p 4 pn 4) Stark demonstrates a miniaturized magnet which could be used in the fight. Wong Chu wrestles some villagers. Tony (and presumably Kanada) accompany some soldiers through the jungle and are present for a firefight with red soldiers. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU, TOSHI KANADA- BTS 

IRON MAN (VOL. 3) 50- FB (p 11 pn 2) Just before the accident, Tony is discussing design problems with the armor he designed for the military. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, TOSHI KANADA- BTS 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 4 pn 5-7) Someones foot (Kanadas based on Byrnes version) trips over a booby trap wire, causing an explosion. A soldier notes that Stark is still alive and annonces his intention to bring him to Wong Chu (unaware that his master is about to arrive on the scene). 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, TOSHI KANADA 

IRON MAN 267- FB (p 16 pn 5- p 17 pn 2) Wong Chu arrives, observes that Kanada is dead. Under his orders, Tony is brought back to his encampment. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU, TOSHI KANADA 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 4 pn 7- p 5 pn 1) Wong Chu and a crony look over at the semi-conscious Stark. There is actually a break between panels 1 and 2 of page 5, as Tony meets Wong Chu for the first time when he is brought to him. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU 

The next part is a little tricky because John Byrne obviously hates chronologists. He ends IM 267 one way, and then when he re-presents the scene at the beginning of IM 268 he changes it around! Not to be thwarted, heres how I break down the scene in which Tony awakens, meets Yinsen, learns whats going on, is taken to meet Wong Chu, is beaten up by his men and collapses, and experiences severe chest pains: 

IRON MAN 267- FB (p 17 pn 3-p 20 pn 2) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 2 pn 2) 
IRON MAN 267- FB (p 20 pn 3- p 21 pn 1) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 2 pn 3) 
IRON MAN 267- FB (p 21 pn 2-4) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 2 pn 4) 
IRON MAN 267- FB (p 21 pn 5- p 22) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 2 pn 5- p 4) 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN, WONG CHU, LI, PO 

IRON MAN (VOL. 3) 50- FB (p 12/13, pn 1-4) Stark regains consciousness and Wong Chu introduces himself and explains about his injury. Although they were already face-to-face in the Byrne scenes, Wong Chu did not introduce himself or discuss the injury before Tony is beaten up and collapses. He offers a surgeon to save Tony if he will design better battle armor for him. Tony tells him, Youre mad. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 5 pn 2-6) Since Tony has just expressed disbelief, Wong Chu repeats his offer about the surgeon. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU 

IRON MAN (VOL. 3) 50- FB (p 12/13 pn 5) Wong Chu brings in Yinsen. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU, YINSEN 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 5 pn 7- p 6 pn 4) Wong Chu says that Yinsen will help Tony in his assignement. Tony and Yinsen work together on the Iron man armor. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU, YINSEN 

IRON MAN (VOL. 3) 50- FB (p 12/13 pn 6) Tony and Yinsen discuss the armor and Yinsen assures Tony that Wong Chu will never have the chance to wear the armor. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN 

IRON MAN 268- FB- FB (p 9 pn 1 & 2) As reported to Wong Chu by the unnamed girl in the flower-print dress, she witnessed a weakened Tony encouraging Yinsen to finish the armor and use it against her master. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 6 pn 3- p 10 pn 1) Mandarin screams at Wong Chu and orders him to make sure Stark is saved. The aforementioned girl runs up to Wong Chu as he is returning through the jungle and reports what she heard in the above FB. Mandarin observes this conversation from nearby. 
Characters appearing: MANDARIN, WONG CHU 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 6 pn 5) Tony feels his time is running out. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 10 pn 4- p 11 pn 1) Yinsen tells him to put on the chestplate. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN 

IRON MAN (VOL. 3) 50- FB (p 12/13 pn 7) Tony is convinced its too late and hes dying, but Yinsen gives him encouragment and repeats his request that Tony put on the chestplate. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 6 pn 6- p 7 pn 2) The chestplate is hooked up, and Yinsen starts the generator which will power up the armor. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 11 pn 2) Tony and Yinsen discuss the armors functions. Theres some discrepency as to whether Tony should already be wearing his Iron Man helemt at this point; in TOS 39 he is, but here and in IM3 50- FB, he isnt. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN, WONG CHU- BTS 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 7 pn 3) -- its the warning light they installed to alert then if someone approches-- 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN, WONG CHU- BTS 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 11 pn 3 & 4) -- Yinsen peeks out the window, worried-- 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN- BTS, YINSEN, WONG CHU- BTS 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 7 pn 4) Yinsen reazlises that Tony still needs time to power up, or the armor will end up in Wong Chus hands. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN- BTS, YINSEN, WONG CHU 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 11 pn 5) Yinsen rejects Tonys plea to help. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN 

IRON MAN (VOL. 3) 50- FB (p 12/13 pn 8) Yinsen runs out the door as Tony yells NO! 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 11 pn 6) As he runs out, Yinsen yells to Tony that he will buy him time. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN, WONG CHU 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 7 pn 5) Yinsen yells, Death to Wong Chu!, who in turn orders his death. 
Characters appearing: YINSEN, WONG CHU 

IRON MAN (VOL. 3) 50- FB (p 12/13 pn 9) Yinsen is shot. Wong Chu asks, Where is Stark? 
Characters appearing: YINSEN, WONG CHU 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 7 pn 6) Tony reacts to the shots as Wong Chu orders Yinsens corpse dragged away. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, YINSEN- BTS, WONG CHU 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 12) Tony crawls off the table and puts on the rest of his armor. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 8 pn 1-6) Iron Man loses his balance, recovers. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 13 pn 1) Iron Man, ready for action. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 8 pn7- p 9 pn 5) As Wong Chu has a soldier break down the door, Tony fears he may have to spend the rest of his life in this clunky armor. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 13 pn 2- 4) Shellhead hovers by the roof and listens to Wong Chu rant. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 9 pn 6 & 7) Shellhead still eavesdropping 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p 13 pn 5 & 6) Wong Chu sends his goons searching for Stark; Iron Man grabs a trenchcoat and hat. 
Characters appearing: IRON MAN, WONG CHU 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 9 pn 8) Iron Man thinks of revenge. 
IRON MAN appears. 

Up until now, it was fairly easy to splice the various Iron Man origin retellings together, because the scenes and dialogue were different enough to allow them to co-exist. But now we get to the end of the story, where TOS 39 and IM 268- FB present the exact same action, but with noticeably different dialogue. Just for the hell of it, I tried a splice, but I admit it makes for a bit of an awkward conversation between Wong Chu and Iron Man at some points. If both versions are to be accepted, this is the best breakdown: 

TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p10 pn 1) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 13 pn 7- p 14 pn 1) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 10 pn 2- 6) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 14 pn 2 & 3) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 10 pn 7- 9) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 14 pn 4 & 5) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 11 pn 1 & 2) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 14 pn 6) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 11 pn 3- 5) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 14 pn 7) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 11 pn 6) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 15 pn 1& 2) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 11 pn 7- p 12 pn 3) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 15 pn 3 & 4) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 12 pn 4 & 5) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 15 pn 5 & 6) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 12 pn 6) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 15 pn 7- p 16 pn 1) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 12 pn 7- p 13 pn 2) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 16 pn 2-4) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 13 pn 4 & 5) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 17 pn 2- p 18) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 16 pn 6) 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 39 (p 13 pn 6 & 7) 
IRON MAN 268- FB (p 19) 

The other option would be to disregard the IM 268 variations of dialogue as Tonys faulty memory, and perhaps a single TOS 39 reference would do for this end portion of the origin. 

IRON MAN 268- FB (p19) Mandarin watches Iron Man trudge away into the jungle. He considers blasting him, but stays his hand. 

IRON MAN 144/2- FB Iron Man meets Rhodey in the jungle and they help each other steal a helicopter and get back to safety. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Okay, the first thing we notice is that Arthur posits 2 seperate trips to the area, while I stick a gap Byrne didnt intend between panels 2 and 3 of page 16. I dont think we have to necessarily give so much weight to Tonys comment about having been there before, the previous visit could have happened at any point in his past. I think my notations above adequately explain why I ordered the scenes the way I did. 

Trying to compare our page breakdowns is giving me a headache due to the conflicting way we count pages, but as far as I can tell, our versions seem pretty close once you get beyond the explosion. It makes me kick myself for not posting my breakdown six months ago, I mightve saved Arthur a lot of work! 

After pulling all these books back out I do feel inspired to finish the final 1/4 of my original missive, assuming real life allows... 

Paul O.: Obviously, I have no problem incorporating certain portions, and not the totality, of modern retellings. In this case it is made easier by the fact that the Byrne origin is framed by Tony thinking back, therefore minor discrepencies can be written off as his misremembering. I have no trouble whatsoever in accepting that someone can accurately remember 95% of a past experience but forget a few minor details like whether he was fully armored or only wearing a chestplate when he got up from a table, or whether he said There! Reverse magnetism-- it works like a charm or No. Just magnetic repulsor rays when deflecting bullets fired at him. In my experience, thats just how human memory plays tricks on us. 

Chris: I have only read the first 2 issues of the new Ellis run, but IMHO it changes the origin way way too much to be accepted, unless in issues 3-up he does a lot of elaborating on how Wong Chu, Mandarin, Yinsen, etc. fit into his new Taliban/Afghanistan/landmine scenario. This could end up being the most egregious case of misremembering ever! Hey listen, Tony Stark went insane, died, rotted in his grave, then was resurrected and merged with an alternate teenage version of himself by a cosmically-powered 7-year-old. It would be no wonder if his memory was a big irreconcilable mess by this point!!!
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 04:55 pm    
By Somebody

So how many retellings of Iron Man's origin have there been, anyway? There was one reprinted in The Power of Iron Man TPB (part of the Demon in a Bottle story) that was almost-but-not-quite a word-for-word panel-for-panel redo, Iron Man #267-268, Iron Age, v3 #50, v4 1&5. Any other significant retellings?

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 07:58 pm    
By Arthur
Director

John Simons wrote Quote: 
>>>
because Arthur apparently counts ad pages 
<<<

Truth to tell... I didn't count anything. Just used the printed page numbers from the books.

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 10:01 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.captaincomics.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=61&st=15 


Stark stated in the 2001 Avengers Annual that he "remembered everything -- three lives, three childhoods" (meaning Teen Tony, Heroes Reborn Tony, and himself, the original)....but that they were "fading, like a dream." One can now assume that these memories will eventually fade away completely. (Dave Huber) 


Well, that could explain Stark's jumbled memories.

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Thread 59

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 01:52 am    Post subject: New Hulk observations...
By Kevin W.
Director

Recent issues of Hulk, (now that Peter David has left) have the Hulk being written as a slurred speech dummy, (it's like "Savage Stupid Hulk", but without the childlike aspect of his personality). 

This last weeks' Fantasic Four #533 was in direct contrast to that, showing the Hulk as intelligent and basically having Banner's personality in control of the Hulk body, (we haven't seen that since Bruce Jones did it for a few issues of his run). 

Sentry #3 has classic "Savage Stupid Hulk" in it, (he's an overgrown kid, for pity's sake). 

Marvel has apparently decided that the Hulk personality is whatever personality the writer feels like writing at the time. What this means to me is: in the current portion of the calender/MCP, we should no longer feel it neccesary to make the Hulk personalities line up perfectly, (for instance, putting all of the "Unleashed Hulk" appearances together, and then putting all of "Smart Hulk's" appearances together). We first discussed this notion a few months ago, but in recent weeks, it's become more and more apparent to me that this should now be the case for our purposes. 

I'm hoping this FF arc will explain the personality shifts to some degree, (Straczynski has an extra dose of gamma radiation bring out the savage side of the Hulk), but I doubt we'll get any true explanation for what's been going on with Hulk's personality.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 29 Dec 2005 11:18 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
What this means to me is: in the current portion of the calender/MCP, we should no longer feel it neccesary to make the Hulk personalities line up perfectly 
<<<

That's a relief...because Hulk really is all over the map and other clues are dictating placement. I guess we just chalk it up to advanced schizophrenia.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 09:58 pm    
By garbonzo

Thankfully, the letters page in FF 533 states "For those of you who keep track, this issue's story takes place before the events of Hulk 88." 

Not to mention there is a great deal of sarcasm in the Hulks questioning of the SHIELD agent at the beginning of FF533 that leads the reader to believe these events take place after the events of Hulk 89 and 90 (and presumably 91). 

Hmmmmmmmm. Just when I thought Marvel was throwing us a bone, this comes up. 

I mean, there is no compelling reason why this issue cannot take place after Hulk 88, but the chances of Hulk talking about "a real HYDRA weapon. Not something put here by somebody who's supposed to be, oh, I don't know...on our side?" to which the agent replies "Oh no. No...I mean...yes, it's a HYDRA weapon. We're absolutely sure this time." 

Thoughts? 

(Please insert mod's assertion that since a Marvel Editor says it is true then it must be true and be referring to some other event involving Banner being mislead into an attack by SHIELD against a HYDRA WMD, here.)

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Posted: 30 Dec 2005 10:22 pm    
By Somebody

In a nutshell? There is no way in hell the FF issues could take place between Hulk 88 and Planet Hulk/Civil War, since Hulk's going to end Peace in our time getting blasted off to Planet Hulk in some as-yet-undetermined fashion, and the editor didn't beat JMS strongly enough about the head about this factoid...

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 06:50 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The story's clearly been written on the assumption that "Peace in our Time" has already happened, but it looks highly likely that that's impossible because Hulk is going to be out of circulation until after Planet Hulk. The placement on the letters page is an unambiguous statement, so it wins.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 10:34 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The story's clearly been written... 
<<<

Paul, I seem to have a memory of you saying at one time (perhaps on racmu) that Marvel was contractually forbidden from "editing" JMS? 

If that was you, could you elaborate? And if so, is it possible that the same terms apply to Fantastic Four? 


watching: lost

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 11:02 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

JMS claims to have such a clause in his contract, yes. Although I assume the point of that is simply that they can't change anything without his approval, and I can't see why he'd be hellbent on keeping a continuity error in place. He's obviously prepared to co-operate with other writers, or he wouldn't be doing a Spider-Man crossover.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 05:31 pm    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
He's obviously prepared to co-operate with other writers, or he wouldn't be doing a Spider-Man crossover. 
<<<

Though, that was really two other writers having to follow a plotline he spearheaded and brainchilded. One a departing writer of a revolving door series, the other a new writer whose series apparently has no intention of being the kind of "continuing storyline" style stuff done in ASM. Not to say Reggie and PaD didn't have input, but their positions in the heirarchy of Spidey at the time of the crossover does seem suspect to letting JMS do whatever he wanted, while everyone else just follows suit.

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Posted: 01 Jan 2006 01:09 pm    
By jannepie

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Sentry #3 has classic "Savage Stupid Hulk" in it, (he's an overgrown kid, for pity's sake). 
<<<

Wasn't it said that the Sentry's presence caused that?

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 09:54 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yes, the book's quite specific about that. For whatever reason, Hulk becomes childlike and compliant when the Sentry is around. That makes him easy for Sentry to manipulate. It's a plot point - Sentry is taking advantage of him.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 06:31 pm    
By Somebody

So, I'm just wondering - Pak says here that he's specifically trying to match PAD's last Hulk (i.e., the Hulk of #77-87), Way's Hulk arc isn't too far off, Captain Universe/Hulk also seemed to be trying to match it, Defenders was pretty close, and Sentry worked in an actual reason why it would be the Savage Hulk that appeared there despite current Hulk continuity. 

As far as I can see, the only "broken" appearance therefore is JMS' current FF arc. 

Now, since FF didn't have a HoM arc in the main series, that makes me wonder - is there any way we can push that back to between Hulk #76 and #77, which is when Banner was last in control of the Hulk (and he accepts the name "Banner" in the FF arc, which only Banner-Hulk and the Merged Hulk do) 

To wit: 

Hulk 76 

[Period of Hulk-instability begins] 

Hard Knocks 
Johns' Avengers 
Disassmbled 
Cap/Falcon 
FF (current) 

[Hulk stablises] 

Defenders 
Cap U/Hulk 
Tempest Fugit 
Hulk 82 
HoM 
Hulk 87 
Hulk:Destruction 
Sentry 
Peace in our Time [NB: Fury in charge of SHIELD] 
Planet Hulk

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 09:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Now, since FF didn't have a HoM arc in the main series, that makes me wonder - is there any way we can push that back to between Hulk #76 and #77, which is when Banner was last in control of the Hulk (and he accepts the name "Banner" in the FF arc, which only Banner-Hulk and the Merged Hulk do)  
<<<

Well, I'm not an expert on Hulk chronology, but pushing the current FF story arc back may have an unwanted impact on the FF's chronologies. The current FF story arc might end up happening before arcs in FOUR as well as the FOES mini-series. So we'd need to look at details such as just how long Ben's been rich (FF 527) before "now."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Jan 2006 10:09 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Way's Hulk arc isn't too far off 
<<<

I'm going to have to dispute that. Way's version of the Hulk is a slurred speech moron, where as David's version, (call him "Unleashed Hulk" call him "Gravage Hulk" call him whatever), was a mean spirited, clever monster. 

And as for the way Pak is going to write him, I remember an interview for the Giffen/Demattias Defenders miniseries, in which the writers said they were going to write the Hulk as Bruce Jones had written him from his run on the book. 

I think all of the writers are just throwing darts randomly, and seeing what sticks best...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 05:45 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Way's version of the Hulk is a slurred speech moron 
<<<

I wouldn't agree with that. He's surly and uncommunicative, but he's clearly having no problem following a relatively complex conversation with Nick Fury. He might not be at Banner-level intelligence, but there's nothing to suggest that Way is writing the Hulk as mentally subnormal.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Jan 2006 08:51 am    
By Somebody

Planet Hulk preview's out, and it looks like Pak meant it when he said he was using the same Hulk as PAD's last run. His dialogue reads near-as-dammit identically: http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Feb_previews/02_08.htm

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Thread 60

Posted: 18 Jan 2006 11:07 am    Post subject: U-MAn in Saga2
By Enda80

I found a reprint of the story that Saga of the Sub-Mariner#2 tale was a retelling of. It was actually from Sub-Mariner Comics#39 published in the 1950's. 

Since I do not have a reprint of the whole issue, should we avoid the notation referencing Sub-Mariner Comics#39 for the moment?

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Posted: 18 Jan 2006 01:28 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm really tempted to go ahead and add it, since it may be years before one of us is able to track down a golden age book for analysis. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 18 Jan 2006 03:49 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.marvelmasterworks.com/library/g_tcr_mm02_mock.html 

That was the third story if you count text stories or the second if you don't. 

The opening scene includes Namora, Byrrah, and Merrano (not named, as noted, Saga 2 revealed this as Merrano aka the U-Man). 

This story appeared in Sub-Mariner Comics#39.

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Posted: 18 Jan 2006 09:54 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I'm really tempted to go ahead and add it, since it may be years before one of us is able to track down a golden age book for analysis. 
<<<

FWIW, I've got Human Torch Comics #1-30, Captain America Comics #11-30, and Sub-Mariner Comics #1-25 on microfiche. Plus I've got those two Golden Age of Captain America TPBs and a handful of various golden age reprint issues. 

Not that it helps in this particular instance, but when I get a chance to read a reasonable run of any of them, I can post analyses of them here.

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Thread 61

Posted: 18 Jan 2006 12:13 am    Post subject: Scarecrow in FF@ 3
By lkseitz

According to the MCP, the Scarecrow appeared in FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3. I've looked at the story as reprinted in the recent 40th ANNIVERSARY SPECIAL and I don't see him anywhere. Can anyone explain this? (I'm trying to find out for someone on Usenet.) 

SCARECROW/EBENEZER LAUGHTON 
GR@ 2-FB 
TOS 51 
UTSM 22 
FF@ 3 
...
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 18 Jan 2006 04:56 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I believe he's a small brown smudge somewhere, identified in the Errata to FANTASTIC FOUR INDEX after a lot of squinting.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Jan 2006 11:00 am    
By Enda80

Actually the X-Men index. 

Now try figuring out who that bald guy seen *standing* in a pew is.

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Posted: 18 Jan 2006 09:54 pm    
By lkseitz

You are correct, sir. Thanks. And that's volume 2 of the X-Men Index, for those keeping track. Volume 1 skipped FF@ 3 in Scarecrow's chronology. 

The Index entry for UX 22 says Scarecrow and Porcupine (and others) previously appeared in FF@ 3. I looked through the issue again and couldn't find Porcupine until I got to page 22, panel 1, where Reed is sending all the villains away. I guess the smallest figure of a villain there, which is colored brown, is supposed to be Scarecrow.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 19 Jan 2006 12:56 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Now try figuring out who that bald guy seen *standing* in a pew is. 
<<<

I'd like to say it's Professor X wearing his special walking harness, but I don't think that had been introduced yet.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Thread 62

Posted: 15 Jan 2006 04:29 pm    Post subject: Iron Man
By Dhall

Iron Man's chronology currently reads: 
A 109 
M/FEA 9 
M/FEA 10 
IM 52 
IM 53 
IM 54 
A 109 

However, I am quite sure that Im 52-54 should go before M/FEA 9-10 in his listing. 

I have two reasons for this: 

1) in IM 53, Raga quotes the press about Ant-Man's "death." (This places the story before M/FEA 10 

2) In M/FEA 9, Iron Man says that he has been tied up on the West Coast. 
The footnote states see current issue of Iron Man for details. 

This again points to M/FEA 9-10 coming after Tony's West Coast aventures in IM 52-54. 

Iron Man's chronology should therefore look like this: 

A 109 

IM 52 
IM 53 
IM 54 
M/FEA 9 
M/FEA 10 

A 109 

with IM 52-54 placed prior to M/FEA 9-10.

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 09:33 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
in IM 53, Raga quotes the press about Ant-Man's "death."  
<<<

Dave, when does Ant-Man's "death" occur? Is it in M/FEA 9 or 10? If so, then shouldn't IM 53 occur after M/FEA 9 or 10? 

According to the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #2, Iron Man appears "in Marvel Feature Vol. 1 #9-10, then in Iron Man #52, page 5 to Iron Man #54 between pages" of A 109.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 10:18 am  
By Dhall

Ant-Man's (and Wasp's) supposed death occurs in M/FEA 6, when Whirlwind destroys their lab. The two are presumed dead, and this is reported in the media. (Note though that Ant-Man has been missing since M/FEA 4.) 

Quote: 
>>>
According to the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #2, Iron Man appears "in Marvel Feature Vol. 1 #9-10, then in Iron Man #52, page 5 to Iron Man #54 between pages" of A 109. 
<<<

This contradicts what M/FEA 9 and IM 53 have to say. What is more official, dialogue and footnotes published in the actual comic, or the index?

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 10:34 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Since it's highly unlikely that the Index just ignored the footnote, I think we'd have to assume that they departed from the comic for good reason.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 11:28 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
Since it's highly unlikely that the Index just ignored the footnote, I think we'd have to assume that they departed from the comic for good reason. 


I don't think it's safe to make assumptions about what was or wasn't taken into account for the Index, when we have no way of knowing if something was missed, or not. 

This is why I always encourage others to take a look at the original comics, as well as the Index.

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 01:28 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Not to be a killjoy, but I'm sure you know the procedure. 

It's not "show that the comics indicate a smoother/better placement than the Index" ... it's "prove that the Index placement cannot work." 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 03:14 pm    
By Dhall

See I don't think that holds for a case like this. 

Most of the time we come across a situation where the index doesn't outright contradict what we know from the comics, here it does. 

The index placement is contrary to the actual comics. I've already shown that. I'm not arguing that the index order cannot work, I am arguing that it contradicts what is in the actual comics, which like the index, are also official material. In any discipline, if we find that the secondary source flat out contradicts the primary sources, we have to question it's validity.

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 03:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
See I don't think that holds for a case like this. 
<<<

See, I think it does hold for a case like this. But that's neither here nor there, since you're trying to present evidence that the index must be mistaken. 

I'd tend to discount your point #2, about the footnote, since footnotes are easy to discount, especially in light of the Official Index. 

There seems to be a sturdier rock to stand on in your point # 1, but it's still not entirely clear what you're saying. 

You seem to be saying that, since the press thought that Ant-Man is dead in M/PRM 6, that Raga's statement in IM 53 proves that IM 53 must occur before M/PRM 9. Sorry, but I don't follow your reasoning here. You've gone from point a to point c, and skipped point b. 

If we're allowed to discount the footnote (and we are...we do it all the time) then Iron Man's reference to developments on the West Coast could be tied to any number of things. 

But develop point one a little further, before we can have a thorough discussion of the issue. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 10:25 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
But develop point one a little further, before we can have a thorough discussion of the issue.  
<<<

The short version, since it's all I have time for tonight, 
Is that between M/Fea 6 and M/Fea 10, the Avengers, including Iron Man, believe that Jan and Hank are dead. In M/Fea 10, the Avengers learn that is not the case. 

In IM 53, Iron Man very much believes that Hank and Jan are deceased, as the villain of the story taunts him about this. 

Therefore IM 53 must occur prior to M/Fea 10. 

Quote: 
>>>
'd tend to discount your point #2, about the footnote, since footnotes are easy to discount, especially in light of the Official Index.  
<<<

I find the footnotes to be much more reliable than the indexes. And also, as they are clear evidence of editorial intent, I don't see how you can discount them, unless they absolutly cannot be correct.

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 01:32 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I find the footnotes to be much more reliable than the indexes. And also, as they are clear evidence of editorial intent, I don't see how you can discount them, unless they absolutly cannot be correct. 
<<<

Clearly, there are many times when footnotes are contradicted by story elements, or even other footnotes in other books. We must choose something to discount. We don't discount anything blindly. We only do so when it's obvious that everything can't be correct. So we have to prioritize, and there are many times when footnotes are discounted, even when they're not absolutely incorrect. It's only absolute that something is incorrect. 

The editor of the footnote in Iron Man #53 is only concerned with the editorial intent of Iron Man #53. The Index, in theory, is concerned with the editorial intent of the Marvel Universe. You believe that footnotes carry more weight than the Index, and that's certainly fair enough. I disagree. 


watching: anderson cooper

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 06:29 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Is that between M/Fea 6 and M/Fea 10, the Avengers, including Iron Man, believe that Jan and Hank are dead. In M/Fea 10, the Avengers learn that is not the case. In IM 53, Iron Man very much believes that Hank and Jan are deceased, as the villain of the story taunts him about this. Therefore IM 53 must occur prior to M/Fea 10.  
<<<

This is certainly a logical argument. Unless the villain in IM 53 is not up to speed and Iron Man doesn't care to correct him, the Index must be in error. 

Dave, can you provide dialog from this scene with Raga in IM 53?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 06:32 am    
By Dhall

I should probably clarify. I find that within a particular series, say X-Men or Avengers, the index does an ok job. It's when it comes to analysis of the other 27 related titles, that I just don't see the evidence, that the writers of the index have done more than a cursory job of analyzing the related titles. And to be fair, I wouldn't expect them to, until such time as they were publishing a New Mutants, or Iron Man index. 

Now if the related title, has been itself indexed, the probabilites of correct placement tend to improve significantly. 

I've seen so many mistakes in the index's that I am not willing to give them much weight. If they were say, online, and there was some method for updating them, well that would be different, but since there isn't, well that's what the MCP is for.

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Posted: 19 Jan 2006 05:48 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
This is certainly a logical argument. Unless the villain in IM 53 is not up to speed and Iron Man doesn't care to correct him, the Index must be in error. 

Dave, can you provide dialog from this scene with Raga in IM 53? 
<<<

I will be posting 'the long version' probably this weekend, unless I get around to it tonight. I don't want this to get lost in arcane arguments about the index. 


Dave

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Posted: 19 Jan 2006 09:13 pm    
By Dhall

Currently the MCP has the following listed for Iron Man: 
A 109 
M/FEA 9 
M/FEA 10 
IM 52 
IM 53 
IM 54 
A 109 

In between pages of A 109, he appears in two issues of Marvel Feature, and three of his own title. While I do believe this to be the case, I am arguing, that the three issues of Iron Man occur before the two M/FEA issues. 

I am going to describe the situation in M/FEA 4-8 to give some background, and then provide a mini-synopsis of M/FEA 9-10, and IM 52-54. 

Marvel Feature was a quarterly publication, in the early 70s that featured the Defenders for three issues, then Ant-Man and Wasp for issues 4-10, then the Thing for two issues. 

According to the MCP, M/FEA 4-10 take place sometime between A 100 and 137. 

In M/FEA 4, Hank teams up with Spider-Man and they fight gangsters. In the course of this issue, Hank is injected with a deadly virus. At the end of the issue, he is cured, but is stuck at Ant-Man height. 

In M/FEA 5, Hank fights Egghead. At the end of the issue, he makes it Back to his lab, only to find Jan, unconscious on the floor. 

In M/FEA 6, Hank and Jan fight Whirlwind. Hank attempts to find an antidote for his condition, but the Wasp tries it, and gets stuck at Wasp-size herself. 

Jan says Hank-This cant go on. The Press is beginning to suspect Ive even put off an Avengers Inquiry from Iron Man. Iron Man gets a BTS for this, which is listed between IM 52, and A 105 in the MCP. 
In the course of this issue, the lab is burned down. The Next morning the Southampton Reviews front page (Tuesday, August 15th) has the lead story Ant-Man and Wasp die: Fire claims lives of two Avengers Other lines read: Avengers react with Shock, No trace found in charred lab, Henry Pym feared trapped at ant size at time of death, Chauffer (really whirlwind) tells of valiant effort to save Pym lives. 

So, at this point we have established that: The Avengers believe that Ant-Man and Wasp are dead. Weve also established the fact that this is well known information that has appeared in the media. 




In M/FEA 7, Hank and Jan fight an android, and Jan is turned into a monster Wasp  With Murder in your eye 

M/FEA 8, is an all origin recap issue. 

Which brings us to M/FEA 9: Hank escapes from Jan, finds his cybernetic helmet, and uses this to calm her down. 

At Bill Fosters Lab, We see Bill Foster along with the chauffer (really Whirlwind) and a lawyer, who is holding the previously mentioned newspaper. These two are scheming to get Jans money. 

Bill, not liking this talk, goes to the burned out remains of Hanks lab. Iron Man appears (at Bills request.) Iron Man says Came as soon as I could Bill, Been tied up on the West Coast. (Footnote refers reader to see the current iron man for details) I brought the Electro-Scanner, butthe Avengers consider this a closed case, and Im sorry but so do 
I. 

Tony scans the area, but finds no trace of Hank or Jan, and flies off. 
Wasp fights a cat. Then, in the lot next to the lab, they meet Doctor Nemesis. 

M/FEA 10: Doctor Nemesis is able to cure Hank, and restore him to normal size. The price for this, is that Hank has to break into Avengers mansion and steal secrets, or else Nemesis wont give Jan the cure. 
Nemesis, and Ant-Man break into Avengers mansion. Then Hank turns on Nemesis, after tricking him into dropping his defenses, and is able to knock him out. 
Then the Avengers appear on the scene: Black Panther, Vision, Captain America, and Iron Man. They are quite surprised to see Hank alive. 

The Next Page, Hank and Jan are back together, and have declined to rejoin the Avengers. 


So to recap: The Avengers already believe Hank and Jan are dead. Iron Man confirms this in M/FEA 9. The Avengers learn they are mistaken, and that the pair are alive, in M/FEA 10. 


Logically speaking, if in IM 52-54 Tony thinks Hank is dead, then those issues must go before M/FEA 10. 




Now, the first part of IM 52, has Tony vacationing in California. After a vacation montage, IM 52-54 are a continuing story with no room for large breaks between issues. 

In these issues, Tony battles a cult, his main opponent being Raga, who has some fire powers. 

In IM 53, when Raga appears to grow to Giant Size, Hank mentions Ant-Man. Never heard Ant-Man raise a whisper about his size, so Im not gonna complain. To which Raga says You draw an apt comparison For Ant-Man is dead now, as you shall shortly be. The editorial note says: Ol Raga believes the Current (False, Natch) Press reports on Hank Pyms demise. 

So (quoting Paul) Unless the villain in IM 53 is not up to speed and Iron Man doesn't care to correct him, the Index must be in error. 

Since Raga is aware of Hanks death, we can presume he likes to catch the news. There is no reason to assume that hes seen reports of Hanks death, but not the reports of him being alive.. (And this does make the News, in Marvels 4, we see the Headline Ant-Man and Wasp Alive, Dramatic Capture at Avengers Mansion Marks Heroes return.) 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 63

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 01:09 am    Post subject: WOSM@ 3
By scottandrewhutchins

I just wanted to note that there is no entry for Web of Spider-Man Annual #3, so I don't know where it fits. This issue is at my parents' house in another state, so I can't analyze it. I do plan to analyze Blaze #1-2 and The Legion of Night #1-2 soon. Neither of those are listed, and I have them in my apartment.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 08:34 pm    
By rhod

WOSM@3 is a pin-up issue.

			*	*	*

Thread 64

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject: What if the "What If" Specials were canon?!?
By Kevin W.
Director

Allright, I just now finally got around to reading all of the "What If" specials from last December...and I don't believe this has been discussed anywhere else on this board, (if so, my apologies)...but I believe it's possible we should regard the framing sequences from these issues as "canon" material. 

Each of the "What If" specials starts out with a kid named Hector Espejo, who has hacked into the internet of another dimension. What will Marvel think of next...  His online codename is "The Watcher" and he's now learning all about this other dimension through the "Othernet", (which is what he calls the internet of the other dimension). 

These framing sequences are clearly set in Earth 616's present day. In the FF special, he compares the FF of the other dimension, saying, "Our Reed Richards, and theirs...both idealists." 

In the Daredevil special, he makes mention of the fact that the media knows Matt Murdock is Daredevil. "I've been googling all the super heroes over there. And they're all whacked. Last night, I drilled down for Matt Murdock. But none of the messboards were speculating about him being Daredevil." 

And he goes on to explain that that's because Daredevil was a samurai crime fighter in the Mieji period of Japan. 

Also in the Daredevil special, Hector says, "I'm finding out things that nobody else knows. Not even brainiacs like Reed Richards. If he ever saw their version of the Fantastic Four, he'd lose it completely." 

So, we should include these framing sequences as canon, right?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 06:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, the only character appearing is Hector Espejo, but yes, presumably his appearances are 616-canon. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 07:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Any chance of getting an analysis of the framing sequences from these books, Kevin?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Jan 2006 11:54 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
Any chance of getting an analysis of the framing sequences from these books, Kevin? 


Yeah, that shouldn't be too hard. I can probably get it posted tomorrow. The analysis for Arana #7-12 should be up tonight or tomorrow as well.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 22 Jan 2006 01:59 am    
By JLH

Great, the title of this thread has caused me to consider... 

WHAT IF... The Second Volume of "What If...?" was never canceled? 

What If #203 (give or take), "What If... Namor Had Wolverine's Claws?" 

			*	*	*

Thread 65

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 04:29 pm    Post subject: T 209
By Dhall

Hildegarde 
T 208 
T 209 <--Remove, she is not in this issue 
T 210 

Karnilla 
T 207 
T 208 
T 209<--Remove, she is not in this issue 
T 210 

Sif 
T 207 
T 208 
T 209<--Remove, she is not in this issue 
T 210 
T 214 

These three characters only appear as a flashback to already seen events from T 207, and should not have a listing for T 209.

			*	*	*

Thread 66

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 09:21 pm    Post subject: FF 131 additions
By Dhall

Karnak 
AA2 10 
**FF 131-FB 
FF 130 
FF 131 
FF 132 

Gorgon 
AA2 10 
**FF 131-FB 
FF 130 
FF 131 
FF 132

			*	*	*

Thread 67

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 04:24 am    Post subject: Supreme Hydra
By jannepie

Which Supreme Hydra is the one appearing in Marvel Two-In-One #29-30 & 32? 

He seems to lead a HYDRA base in Britain, is he even seen elsewhere?

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 06:59 pm    
By Enda80

Perhaps Count Otto Vermis? 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/supremehydraih.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 12:32 am    
By jannepie

No, Count Otto Vermis died earlier in Marvel Spotlight #32. 

The one in the link's bio is based in America, whereas this one is located in Europe. I think he was just leading an European splinter group and wanted to take over the whole HYDRA. 

I think the same thing was with Vermis, whose European splinter group wanted to gain control over the whole HYDRA. IIRC they mentioned in Marvel Spotlight #32 that S.H.I.E.L.D. had taken down the main group a bit earlier.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 05:17 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

At any given time, pretty much anyone could be the Supreme HYDRA - there are tons of splinter factions around, each of which presumably has its own Supreme HYDRA. (For a terrorist organisation which doesn't really believe in anything beyond nihilist facsism, it certainly seems to find recruitment remarkably easy. The health plan must be spectacular.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 68

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 08:11 pm    Post subject: The Awesome Slapstick
By scottandrewhutchins

Is this series canon? It's not listed and there's no abbreviation for it. I have these in storage, but I saw the first issue in a 50 cent bin yesterday and it included cameos of various other Marvel characters. I'm certain it showed Mr. Fantastic and Howard the Duck (the latter vomiting into a bucket). I think it showed Spider-Man, J. Jonah Jamesomn, Wolverine, and Invisible Woman, but I'm not to sure about those. I know it showed something like nine panels, each with one or more recognizable characters. 

Speaking of Howard the Duck, he appears in She-Hulk vol. 1 #9 (on the cover of #8, but not in that issue) and She-Hulk vol. 2 #3 (100). I guess these are SH3 and SH4 in the key (ignoring that Savage & Sensational were part of the indicia titles).

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 09:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Slapstick is a canonical character and has an entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Master Edition, which cites the series you mention. Aside from his own series, he appeared in a New Warriors story in M/CP 159-163.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 12:01 am    
By SeanCurtin

As Paul said, it's canonical. Vance Astrovik appears as Marvel Boy in the last issue, which would place the series sometime before NW 18(ish). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 01:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

Can anyone confirm that list of cameos in #1? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 06:35 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Pre-existing characters in #1: Dr. Strange, Spider-Man, Silver Surfer, Uatu the Watcher, Invisible Woman, Mr. Fantastic, and Howard the Duck (with a pin-up calendar in the background featuring Beverly Switzler, but that's not an actual appearance). 

In #2: Spider-Man, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Wolverine (in a flashback set during the Fall of the Mutants), and the Mad Thinker (BTS). 

In #3: No pre-existing characters. 

In #4: Daredevil, Ghost Rider/Dan Ketch, Speedball, Peggy Carter, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Captain America, Night Thrasher, Nova/Richard Rider, Invisible Woman, Iron Man/Tony Stark, Namorita, Marvel Boy, Quasar, Vision, Thor (probably Eric Masterson - only his arm is seen), and Firestar. 

-Sean

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Posted: 23 Jan 2006 12:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks! I gotta buy #2 now... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 69

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 02:48 pm    Post subject: The Legion of Night: previous appearances
By scottandrewhutchins

I'm going to be adding The Legion of Night soon, but some of its members are pre-existing and don't have listings here, so, I'm adding those first. 

Dr. Chan Liuchow [this is almost certainly surname-first] 
{ ST 89 } [he was the first to encounter Fin Fang Foom] 

Gold, Martin 
{ VT 6 } 
DL 10/3 
DL 11/4 
M/PRV 12 
M/PRV 16/3 
TOD 67 

Of the other members, Dr. Katherine Reynolds and Jennifer Kale are already listed here. Ariann & Caspar Wright and Omen/Charles Blackwater did not appear before The Legion of Night #1.

			*	*	*

Thread 70

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 05:14 pm    Post subject: Man-Thing flashbacks
By scottandrewhutchins

AIF 16-FB [Flashback, p. 18. Ted Sallis, working on Operation: Sulfur creates Formula SO-2, which can turn men into pollution-breathing monsters (not to be confused with Project: Gladiator, the Super-Soldier project that resulted in Man-Thing).] 
MT 15-FB [Flashback, Greenwich Village, 1967; Sallis meets Sainte-Cloude, tells her about Operation: Sulfur at dinner. She encourages him to give up the project.] 
AIF 16-FB [Flashback, p. 18. Sallis tells a general that he would be stupid to ever implement SO-2.] 
DD 113-FB-BTS [Flashback: Dr. Charles Laing (journalism chair at Empire State University) tells Matt Murdock about Candace Nelson's research into non-public files about Operation: Sulfur--Sallis does not appear, although he is mentioned, but a hypothetical creation, looking kind of like Swamp Thing, does. The flashback does not take place here (iirc, that's around the time of DD 108), but what Candace sees in the file does.] 
MT 15-FB [Flashback, Sallis tells Sainte-Cloude he has given up Operation:Sulfur.] 
GSM-T 5 [Ted Sallis and Ellen Brandt shown Ted's future as Man-Thing by Madame Swabada at Garvey's Carnival.] 
{SVT 1/3}<--appeared in the third story (1st Conan, 2nd Femizons, then news page, then Man-Thing) 
AT 12 
AT 13 
MU 5<--this seems awfully early, particularly given when it was published, but given Man-Thing's near-lack of a memory, it could work. It could also occur before M-T 9, but then, a lot of issues are listed between 8 and 9. It does foe back to the location of the events of AT 12 & 13, though. It is also contradicted (apparently) by M-T3 1. 

In summary: 
AIF 16-FB 
MT 15-FB 
AIF 16-FB 
DD 113-FB-BTS 
MT 15-FB 
GSM-T 5 
{SVT 1/3) 
AT 12 
AT 13 
AIF 10 

Unless you still want the questionable MU 5 between AT 13 and AIF 10.

			*	*	*

Thread 71

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject: Uncle Ben and Aunt May first appearance in Strange Tales #97
By wolframbane

The Overstreet Guide lists Strange Tales #97 (June, 1962) as being the first appearance of Aunt May and Uncle Ben. This was, however, before they appeared in Amazing Fantasy #15, the origin of Spider-Man. 

The story in ST 97 involves two characters, also named 'Uncle Ben' and 'Aunt May', who bear an uncanny resemblance to the later relatives of Peter Parker (see http://www.samruby.com/Spiderverse/Origin/St097MayBen.gif ). They care for 'Linda Brown', a mermiad who ultimately returns to the sea. The story was later reprinted in Marvel Selects: Spider-Man #5 (5/00). 

Even though I doubt this would officially be considered May and Ben, I was ondering about everyone else's thoughts?

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:20 pm    
By Somebody

I read the story when the UK Spider-Man title reprinted it. Certainly not "our" Ben and May - first, they're certainly not the 18+ years younger than in AF15 they'd have to be, secondly, would the May who looked after a mermaid really be so scared of "that awful Spider-Man"?

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It does rather defy belief that Aunt May would have a history of amateur mermaid maintenance, given her later attitude to anything remotely fantastic. No doubt the HANDBOOK crew will be desperately looking for an opportunity to canonise it now that somebody's brought it to their attention, but that aside, I think we can disregard it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:44 am    
By garbonzo

Maybe it's the May and Ben from that "Trouble" mini-series from a few years ago?

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:17 am    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It does rather defy belief that Aunt May would have a history of amateur mermaid maintenance, given her later attitude to anything remotely fantastic. No doubt the HANDBOOK crew will be desperately looking for an opportunity to canonise it now that somebody's brought it to their attention, but that aside, I think we can disregard it. 
<<<

Nah, didn't even Eric J and co draw the line at trying to make the Avengers Annual 10 "Maddy Pryor" the same Madelyne Pryor who later married Cyke?  

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
Maybe it's the May and Ben from that "Trouble" mini-series from a few years ago? 
<<<

If you like, although the odds must be astronomical either way, TBH

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:37 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Nah, didn't even Eric J and co draw the line at trying to make the Avengers Annual 10 "Maddy Pryor" the same Madelyne Pryor who later married Cyke?  
<<<

Oh no, quite the contrary. That version of history is acknowledged as a possibility in both UPDATE '89 and the Murray Ward X-MEN INDEX, from memory. To be fair, I gather Claremont was genuinely toying with the idea at one point, and there are a couple of hints in that direction in UNCANNY itself - Maddy having a flashback to AVENGERS ANNUAL #10 as part of a "life flashing before her eyes" sequence, or something like that.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:51 pm    
By Somebody

Oh my.......... 

I wish I could think you were joking.

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:00 pm    
By Enda80

That Strange Tale was a bit too similar to Lori Lemaris over in Superman#129. Anyone know if the idea of a mermaid pretending to be a physically challenged woman has appeared elsewhere? 

A recent article in Alter Ego showed that Tales of Suspense#7 had a bystander who facially exactly resembled May Parker, for what that helps. The Monsters Files book may have canonized this story (if it was the one involving involving shadows). 

Madelyne remembered her life as the little girl in Avengers Annual#10 in 
A child identifying herself as "Maddy Pryor" appears in the Chris Claremont-scripted Avengers Annual #10. It appeared that Claremont had named her after the singer too and there was no in-story connection, but the child reappeared as Madelyne's mental image of herself in X-Men #238, wearing the same clothes as the character from Avengers Annual #10 and saying almost the same line. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelyne_Pryor 
As yet no connection has been drawn between her and a certain red-haired French schoolgirl. 

(Man, we get the Goblin Queen because of Steeleye Span and we get John Constantine because of Sting.)

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:38 pm    
By Dhall

Given that Madelyne turned out to be a clone, force grown in Sinister's lab, it's rather not that much of a stretch, as far as events in the Marvel Universe go. Espeically since she has the memory of Avengers Annual #10.

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:15 pm    
By garbonzo

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
That Strange Tale was a bit too similar to Lori Lemaris over in Superman#129. Anyone know if the idea of a mermaid pretending to be a physically challenged woman has appeared elsewhere? 
<<<
 


Since you said "elsewhere"... there is a short story by Francesca Lia Block about a mermaid who pretends to be physically challenged.  But it isn't a comic.  

sorry.

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:18 pm    
By Somebody

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Given that Madelyne turned out to be a clone, force grown in Sinister's lab, it's rather not that much of a stretch, as far as events in the Marvel Universe go. Espeically since she has the memory of Avengers Annual #10. 
<<<

A sick little girl in a throwaway aside in a hospital apparently being an adult clone of a major character who awakened for the first time when a cosmic force's shell mimicking that character was destroyed on the moon ISN'T a stretch?!

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:39 pm    
By wolframbane

Hmmm. I was wondering... why would they have reprinted the Linda Brown story from ST 97 in Marvel Selects: Spider-Man #5 (2000), unless there was a connection to Spider-Man.

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:12 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
A sick little girl in a throwaway aside in a hospital apparently being an adult clone of a major character who awakened for the first time when a cosmic force's shell mimicking that character was destroyed on the moon ISN'T a stretch?! 
<<<

In an X-Men comic? C'mon.....We have seen worse. (Cable springs to mind here.) 

(What I really mean is that Maddie having that memory wasn't a stretch, see below) 

Meanwhile, I'd like to point out the following MCP chronology: 
GOBLIN QUEEN/MADELYNE "MADDIE" JENNIFER PRYOR SUMMERS 
A@ 10 
UX 241-FB 
UX 168 


How this works when Maddie supposedly was an adult in the flashback (UX 241-FB) where her powers are activated at the time of Phoenix's death (UX 137), and that was a bit BEFORE A@ 10 (which is between UX 149 and 150) is anybody's guess. 

A@ 10 probably needs to be removed, as the timeline just can't work. 
Also, we can't claim art error, for Maddie's age, as the dialogue says she was past puberty when she manifested her powers. 


If you'd like a different explanation for the memory then: 
Sinister probably had a few Jean clones in his clone banks. 
Since they're all telepathic, it's not much of a stretch for her to have picked up the memory from the sick child clone. (Since Maddie had that memory, she either got it from somewhere, or else it was hers to begin with.)

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:40 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.comicboards.com/mub/view.php?trd=060118033759 

Look at the picture towards the bottom. One of the people in the crowd toward the top has a familiar face.

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:00 pm    
By John Simons

For what it's worth, I believe Chris Claremont has stated in interviews that the only connection between the child in A@ and the Uncanny X-Men character is the name, which happened to be the name of a real-life singer whom he was friends with in the 70s. 

Of course, just because he had no intent doesn't mean someone else didn't make the connection between the two afterward, but I just throw it out there that they weren't meant to be the same character, at least originally...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:25 pm    
By Dhall

Not orginally, until the first Genosha storyline, where it's revealed that Maddie 
has that memory. Really though I'm pretty sure Claremont meant the whole thing as a joke.

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:55 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

John Simons wrote: 
For what it's worth, I believe Chris Claremont has stated in interviews that the only connection between the child in A@ and the Uncanny X-Men character is the name, which happened to be the name of a real-life singer whom he was friends with in the 70s.  


Yes, the reference is to Maddie Prior of Steeleye Span. Claremont does this sort of thing from time to time - Cat's Laughing are a real band too. 

Returning to the chronology issue: the point that Avengers Annual #10 takes place AFTER the death of Phoenix, and that a flashback has conclusively shown Maddie to be an adult at the moment of Phoenix's death, does strike me as rather compelling.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:37 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
nd that a flashback has conclusively shown Maddie to be an adult at the moment of Phoenix's death 
<<<

And this point is also revisted and confirmed in X-Factor 38, as well as the original flashback, so it is well established.

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:44 pm    
By Ocean Doot

"Not orginally, until the first Genosha storyline, where it's revealed that Maddie 
has that memory. Really though I'm pretty sure Claremont meant the whole thing as a joke." 

... certainly, the dialogue in UX 238 suggests "joke." 

Against the backdrop of the memory, the dialogue is: 

"What is that song she's singing?" 
"'Gone to America,' by a group called Steeleye Span." 
"Is that significant?" 
"Unknown." 

Seems to be a little poke at conversations just like these, pondering the greater significance of throwaway gags. 

Makes *me* laugh, anyway!  

(For more red herrings, how's this? Avengers Annual 10, the issue causing the confusion, is the first appearance of Rogue. Maddy (not "Maddie," btw) Prior's band, Steeleye Span, have an album called "A Parcel of Rogues," with a song on it called "Rogues in a Nation." Dun dun DUN!)

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:29 pm
By scottandrewhutchins

Next they're going to say the Eric Masterson that appeared and died in TOTZ 6 is the Eric Masterson who became Thor, even though that would give that Eric Masterson some definitely unnecessary baggage to tarnish his image.

			*	*	*

Thread 72

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 06:21 pm    Post subject: Graybar
By scottandrewhutchins

The Haunt of Horror 1/7 depicts a character named Mr. Graybar and his psychiatrist, Dr. Kopern. Mr. Graybar has an overpowering urge to kill as a vigilante. In M-T 22-FB, Steve Gerber is handed a Nightmare Box by a character who looks just like Graybar does in the final splash page, and Gerber asks where they have met before. The man answers, "in the shadows of the city," whcih is the title of Haunt of Horror 1/7. 

In M-T 21, a hand picks up a Nightmare Box. I *think* this is supposed to be Steve Gerber's hand, if I interpret M-T 22 correctly, but it could be Graybar's. 

Should Graybar get an entry? I think so. A psychopath who was a catalyst toward saving the universe form a major demon ought to have is own entry.

			*	*	*

Thread 73

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 08:12 pm    Post subject: Spectacular Spider-Man #142
By captamr

The FB in PPTSS 142 (pg. 3, pn. 3) continues the conversation between Tombstone and Mary Jane from PPTSS 141 and also shows Tombstone injuring her wrist which appears bandaged in PPTSS 142. So: 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 

PPTSS 141 
*PPTSS 142  FB 
PPTSS 142 



TOMBSTONE 

PPTSS 141 
*PPTSS 142  FB 
PPTSS 142
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Thread 74

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 12:06 am    Post subject: Behind the Scenes
By scottandrewhutchins

I'm a little confused as to what is meant by behind the scenes because of a couple of examples: 

Foolkiller II/Greg Salinger in OTU 8 is listed as BTS, when he is in the last panel of page 15. It's a close shot on him and there's no question what character he is. 

Man-Thing is not listed at all for DD 115, but he appears in a flashback to the the events of the previous issue (which I realize constitutes a mere "appearance"), and the crux of the issue is Death-Stalker trying to get the Sallis Papers, which DD destroys at the end of the issue. The fact that Ted Sallis created what they're fighting over doesn't constitute a BTS? This might also apply to M/TIO 42, as well, though much more vaguely. 

While on the subject of Man-Thing, please take away his listing in DEF 97; it's wrong. He appears in DEF 98, and appears in a flashback on the first page of 99, but the closet thing to him appearing in DEF 97 is a little demon that has three trunks on his face, though it's clearly not Ted Sallis, anymore than the What If in which Sue Storm became Man-Thing is Ted Sallis.

			*	*	*

Thread 75

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 08:01 pm    Post subject: Web of Spider-Man #42
By captamr

Mary Jane stars and is present: 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 

WOSM 41 
*WOSM 42 
WOSM 43
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Thread 76

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 07:51 pm    Post subject: Placement of Thor annual 2001 ?
By Chrisday

the Thor annual of 2001 is not included in the Marvel Calendar area and I want to know where to put it with regard to other issues of Thor. 

Thor and Jake Olson are still a singular entity. 

Hercules and Beta Ray Bill are in this annual, which has events occuring on Earth and elsewhere. 

IMO, It has to take place sometime after Thor is reunited with Bill in Thor v2 #31 

Thor, Hercules and Bill witness the origin of Desak the Destroyer of Gods 

like other appearances of Thor outside his main title inbetween Maximum Security and the Death of Odin, This annual could probably be set sometime during the gap between pages 21 and 22 of Thor v.2 #32 

Also, could there be the possibility of a large gap inbetween issues 33 and 34 of Thor for other events to take place?

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 10:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
This annual could probably be set sometime during the gap between pages 21 and 22 of Thor v.2 #32  
<<<

That's probably a safe bet. We could actually place the story just before page 22 of T2 32. Thor and Bill reunite (again) in T@ '01. After the adventure is over, Herc takes his leave, and Thor takes Bill back to Jake's place, which he sees for the first time on page 22 of T2 32. Just a theory...
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 77

Posted: 25 Jan 2006 02:56 am    Post subject: holocaust
By natesbarlow

Hi.....first of all, I just found this site and its awesome!!! I now have a collection of issues with quicksilver that i didn't even know existed. 

My question/comment: I was introduces to the x-villian, Holocaust, in the "Age of Apocalypse" series as chronicles here. Then I looked over my old "Stryfe's Strike File" from the x-cutioner's song era and Holocasut is in it! 

I didn't see "Stryfe's Strike File" in the chrono and I was wondering about the pre-AOA Holocaust and what ish's he's in. Any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Jan 2006 08:36 am    
By Marc-Oliver Frisch

Holocaust's profile in STRYFE'S STRIKE FILE doesn't qualify as an appearance, in terms of the Chronology Project's approach -- it's just a chunk of information compiled by Stryfe. 

As for the pre-"Age of Apocalypse" version of Holocaust, well, the short answer is that there is none. As far as I'm aware, STRYFE'S STRIKE FILE was the only book which made mention of the character prior to Holocaust's eventual appearance in X-MEN: ALPHA #1 two years later, which kicked off "Age of Apocalypse." 

Presumably, they were intending to introduce Holocaust in one of the X-titles while STRYFE'S STRIKE FILE was being created, but abandoned the idea down the line, until "Age of Apocalypse" came around and gave them an opportunity to revamp the concept. 

In terms of an in-story explanation for the SSF entry, perhaps (a) the character is someone we haven't seen yet (although that's unlikely, given that he's described by Stryfe as being immensely powerful and not exactly prone to subtlety), or (b) Stryfe's entry is based on records from his own timeline, referring to events which had not happened yet, or which were never going to happen, in the mainstream Marvel Universe.
_________________
Marc-Oliver Frisch 
POPP'D! -- Comikado -- Supercritical 

Updated almost daily.

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Posted: 25 Jan 2006 10:26 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'd go with (b). 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Jan 2006 11:38 pm    
By natesbarlow

Thanks Marc! That clears things up

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Thread 78

Posted: 16 Jan 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Chrono problems
By bars_email

I'm having some trouble sorting my collection from Avengers Disassembled until now. I collect Disassembled, HoM, Secret War, NA, YA, Wolverine, Ironman, Captian America, Spiderman, Thunderbolts, Black Panther and Astonishing Xmen. 
I just need a quick list of the order the issues with these comics go in. Also for things like HoM Im not sure where to put in the crossovers. 
Any help would be greatly appriciated.

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 10:35 am    
By jephyork
Director

That's not an easy request, my friend. It's all fairly recent -- WE'RE still sorting some of this out, and I'm sure there are dissenting opinions about what goes where. 

Here's a quick starter, off the top of my head, of what we're SURE of: 

Disassembled 
Astonishing X-Men #1-6 
Wolverine #20-31 
Secret War 
New Avengers #1-15 
House of M 

But that's not a lot. 

Paul B. might be able to chime in here with his Calendar, but bear in mind that his Calendar doesn't always reflect the MCP's placements. 

Good luck... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 05:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Paul B. might be able to chime in here with his Calendar, but bear in mind that his Calendar doesn't always reflect the MCP's placements. 
<<<


But in this case, I agree with Jeph's sequence. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 10:04 pm    
By bars_email

Thanks for the help so far. Whats the calender?

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Posted: 17 Jan 2006 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Click on "THE MARVEL CALENDAR" at the bottom of this very page and find out! An update is coming soon...(fingers crossed)...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Jan 2006 09:57 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Like we haven't heard THAT before!

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Posted: 25 Jan 2006 09:33 am    
By bars_email

The calander didnt really help that much as it doesnt go as high as those issues. So is there any ideas on HoM and post HoM comics? The list above helps but anything else with more detail?

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Posted: 25 Jan 2006 10:30 am    
By jephyork
Director

There's one or two enormous threads on this board arguing how the HoM comics fit together -- and there ISN'T much "after HoM" yet! Nothing that specifically crosses over, anyway, not off the list you gave at the start of this thread. 

Presumably you've read the comics you're asking about ... do you have any theories? 

-Jeph! 
 
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Posted: 26 Jan 2006 06:31 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Like we haven't heard THAT before!  
<<<

Thank you for your support.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 79

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 09:58 pm    Post subject: Next Wave
By meyakus

is this the first appearance of Elsa Bloodstone since the four issue Bloodstone mini series? Where's the Bloodstone?

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Posted: 27 Jan 2006 06:09 am    
By Somebody

Warren Ellis lost it in a drinking game

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Thread 80

Posted: 18 Feb 2005 11:50 am    Post subject: X-Men/ Star Trek
By Jason Doty

I've been working on placing the X-Men/Star Trek issue of 1996. I'm trying to keep it as close to publication date as I can, but due to that turbulant year (Wolverine becoming beastly, Onslaught, and the Dark Beast taking Beast's place) It would have to come early in the year. I'm leaning toward inbetween X-Force 51 and X-Men 48. 

The major players for Marvel are: 

Cyclops, Beast, Phoenix IV, Storm, Wolverine, Gambit, and Bishop 
Lilandra (BTS) 
Deathbird, Gladiator, and some Imperial Guard. 

Is there any reason that anyone can think of why this would not work?

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 11:54 am    
By jephyork
Director

...because they're crossing over with a TV show, maybe?  

-Jeph! 
(yes, I own it too. Sigh.)

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 12:16 pm    
By Jason Doty

I thought we were going to try to place all of the universe to universe cross-overs, if they wer'nt deamed out of continuity. Nothing in this issue suggests it's not based within the bounds of plausability. I could understand if it contradicted continuity, but not because Star Trek is a T.V show.

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 12:42 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, I thought you were big on universe to universe crossovers..... 


My concern isn't with the first x-men/star trek, but with the second one. What's the concern? That it is continued in a novel.......

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 01:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The problem is that "Star Trek" has been referenced as a TV show in the Marvel Universe, too. So in that sense, these crossovers DO "contradict Marvel reality". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 01:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
My concern isn't with the first x-men/star trek, but with the second one. What's the concern? That it is continued in a novel....... 
<<<

I was told by the editor of the novels that all the novels were not canon. So the theory that a novel could be canon would be irrelevant. 


watching: jonny quest

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 01:14 pm    
By Jason Doty

Quote: 
>>>
The problem is that "Star Trek" has been referenced as a TV show in the Marvel Universe, too. 
<<<

Marvel has a "Clark Kent" too, so what! Does that negate the DC/Marvel Cross-overs? 

As far as the novel goes, it is not the same universe as the X-Men novels, which are printed by Byron Press.

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 01:22 pm    
By Dhall

>>>
 was told by the editor of the novels that all the novels were not canon. So the theory that a novel could be canon would be irrelevant.
<<<

oh, that's not the problem...I agree with that.....the problem is if the novel is not cannon, (and we're in agreement on that point) can the issue that directly crosses over with a novel, be canon? 

I would lean towards, no it cannot, but I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on that....

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 01:38 pm    
By Jason Doty

Star Trek present their media through T.V, Movies, Novels, and Comics. The novels printed by Byron Press are a seperate entity from the 616 (possibly because of continuity errors), but Star Trek is published through Pocket Books and those books are cannon to their universe. The cross-over starts in Marvel's media and continues in Star Trek's. This should not arbitrairily negate the story because of the format it is printed. One set of books should not negate another.

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 01:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Marvel has a "Clark Kent" too, so what! 
<<<

Marvel has a gag character NAMED Clark Kent. He doesn't have the secret identity of Superman. Whereas, in the Marvel Universe, Star Trek has been shown several times to be a TV show and piece of pop culture. 

A much better argument would be "Marvel characters have oftentimes been seen reading DC Comics -- and vice versa -- and yet we consider the Marvel/DC crossovers canon." 

So -- make THAT argument, and then we'll talk about the X-Men/Star Trek crossover. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 03:42 pm    
By Shmi

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
but Star Trek is published through Pocket Books and those books are cannon to their universe. <<<


This is irrelvant to the MCP, but are you saying that the Star Trek novels are canon to the Star Trek Universe? They're not. Paramount considers only series (not including the animated series) and movies as canon.

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 03:47 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The novels printed by Byron Press are a seperate entity from the 616 (possibly because of continuity errors),  
<<<

Nope. Even the stories without continuity errors are not canon. 


watching: closing arguments

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 04:53 pm    
By Jason Doty

Quote: 
>>>
So -- make THAT argument, and then we'll talk about the X-Men/Star Trek crossover.  
<<<

The argument that your making Jeph!, is that what you want to be cannon becomes cannon. You'll make an argument to put Reading To the Rescue in, but just arbitrairily decide you don't like the idea of a cross-over with a telivision show. My original question was would there be anything wrong with the placement around this time and if it contridicts continuity. Your responce was 

Quote: 
>>>
...because they're crossing over with a TV show, maybe? 
<<<

Why did'nt you just say you did'nt like the comic? That's not a valid reason to chuck it. You'll through out references to Presidents, and time frames but not a Marvel Comics telivision shows. My question is that the X-Men/Star Trek was listed on your universe to universe cross-over list, why such a strong change of heart when I try to place it? I respect the fact that you and the other moderators put vast work in making sure the project is complete, but every time a bring up an issue you seem to feel as if I stepped in your domain. I placed quite a few appearances for the DC/Marvel crossovers, Offered a pretty good placement for the Classic X-Men story we discussed, and pointed out that the X-Men/Alpha Flight's were in the wrong place. I might not write to the standard you prefer, but it dos'nt mean my idea's are'nt without merit. I was'nt trying to pick an argument with you, just trying to finish a project that I deemed worthwhile and fun to complete.

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 05:29 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think you're really misrepresenting me here, Jason. 

I asked you to make me an argument why the books SHOULD be canon. It took a lot of convincing to decide that the Marvel/DC books should be canon -- and they only crossed over from one COMIC to another! A comic-to-TV-show crossover book is going to need an all-new round of convincing. 

I even gave you a good argument to start with (ie, DC comics are sometimes referred to as fictional in the MU, yet their crossovers are canon). I was hoping you'd go somewhere with that -- not get mad. 

"Canonicity" has nothing to do with what I personally do or don't like. I don't own the MCP -- I don't run it. I've been asked by the guy that DOES run it to help uphold the ideals of the place -- so I'm trying to apply some standards to the ... more out-there books that people suggest including. 

I'm not telling you "no", and I'm not trying to discourage you. I just want you to make a nice, strong case for its canonicity -- while I play a fairly strong devil's advocate. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 06:08 pm    
By Enda80

This Star Trek as a tv show on Earth-616 situation reminds me of Quasar's first meeting with New Universe characters in Quasar#31. 
Members of DP7 mentioned that Marvel Comics had existed on their Earth, including publishing comics with the Watcher...though the Watcher did not exist in the New Universe Earth. 

Similarly, the Nth Man met Excalibur in Excalibur#27 even though in his own series they were fictional. (This included Galactus. That Galactus was shown as fictional in the Nth Man's world shows that it lies outside of the omniverse.) 

Death's Head met the Doctor from Dr. Who, as has Mister Fantastic and possibly Alistair Stuart, even though the Dr. Who show has been referenced as existing on Earth-616. (It has been theorized, by the way, that the Doctor has tried deal with planets whom he often interacts with in a special way; in order to throw people off of the scent, to prevent them from noticing his interactions with their civilization, the Doctor will go to tv producers and have them create fictionalized versions of his adventures for tv! That way, if anyone witnesses one of his adventures, people will think it was a hoax based on a tv show!) 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/doctorwh.htm 
But the fictional character rule doesn't always work, as Changeling notes "Decalog 3: Consequences (a book of ten short stories featuring the Doctor) includes a tale which implies that the seventh Doctor often went back in time to introduce himself as a "fictional" character on worlds he fears may notice his continual meddlings in their history. I liked the idea of that, as in Remembrance of the Daleks (another one of the TV shows) it was shown that the Doctor Who TV show does indeed exist in his own timeline, and also Dr Who is a fictional character on Earth 616 (Excalibur I #1)." 

So by the same basis, the Doctor being a fictional character on Earth 616 could be down to the same thing - he may even have created the show himself to provide funds for when he is on Earth 616." 


So, I would say that Star Trek lies outside of the multiverse, but that as in the cases above, somehow impressions of them bled through via writers' minds "tuning in". The only nit I can think of is that none of the members of the X-Men stopped and said "Hey, doesn't this all remind you of that tv show with William Shatner?". The only way to justify this is to say that on Earth-616, Star Trek is not as well known as in the real world. 

Oh, for those who might wish to read up on the other X-Men/Star Trek meetings; 

http://www.geocities.com/bomymo/2/19970803.htm

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 06:30 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
I liked the idea of that, as in Remembrance of the Daleks (another one of the TV shows) it was shown that the Doctor Who TV show does indeed exist in his own timeline, 
<<<

Well no it wasn't.... 

What was said was: 

Next on BBC Doc------ 

and I'm paraphrasing, (so someone else can go rewatch and give the exact quote) the show was supposed to be set on the very day that Doctor first premiered in 1963, and that was an in joke. They never said Doctor Who. 

Dave H

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 06:45 pm    
By Jason Doty

I apoligize. It was not my attempt to mis-represent you or come off as a jerk. I'll also admit I was miffed when you wrote " make THAT argument..." and capitilized "THAT," as if the argument I was putting forth was not sound. I just wanted to know if there was any reason why it was not considered cannon. If the argument is because it is a telivision show in the Marvel Universe. Artists always draw in little things to make it seem more real, and at the same time give props to other forms of media. The project does not through out a story like Emma Frost because she's using a cell phone and the story is set in the past. I also don't see the relivence in trying to prove something should be in continuity, rather the oposite. In other words "Why is it not canon?" Once again I apologize to you Jeph! I misinterpreted what you wrote as an attack, as if you would only discuss this if I presented the argument the way you would have. I also believed once that we started making the arguments for the DC/Marvel cross-overs that we would make considerations for the others on a case by case bases, starting with the universe to universe cross-overs. 
The reasons I belive this series should be considered are: 

1. I see no evidence that they contradict Marvel continuity. 

2. They are not presented as a single universe meeting, rather a cross-over between one universe and another. 

3. The novel that they cross-over into is in no part connected to the Marvel novel's or that universe. 

4. Even if the Marvel Universe has a "Star Trek" show it is no how connected to the "Star Trek" universe. (No mater the simularities) 

5. The chronology project does not through out licenced properties on the sole bases they are licenced by another company (Examples would be Rom; a toy, Conan; an original novel (yes I know that it has not been placed yet), or Crystar; another toy.) Transformers was put out because it contradicted continuity. 

6. It does no diservice to the Chronology Project to include something that only enriches the tapestry of the Marvel Universe. (Unless it goes against continuity.) 

Once again, I apologize to Jeph! I was hoping he would come on board with this idea, but also understand his duty to uphold the integrity of this site, and will do my best to not be so "thin skinned" when it comes to criticism. Thanks, Doty

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 09:08 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Transformers was put out because it contradicted continuity. 
<<<

I don't think that it ever did, though. It's out of continuity mainly because Marvel editors said it was. 

-Sean

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 09:56 pm    
By jephyork
Director

TransFormers never explicitly contradicted Marvel Universe continuity that I'm aware of -- but there were events in the Generation 2 series like blowing up San Fransisco. I suspect "it's out because they said it's out" is the main reason -- although I'd like to know precisely where that was said. 


Jason -- you have nothing to apologize for. I think you were just standing up for yourself. I should probably clarify my position on a few things: 

I try, very hard, to justify as much as possible. In general I live by the rule of "it's canon unless there's a specific reason why not". I personally own both Star Trek/X-Men books, and the novel. But the things that I personally consider canon aren't the same things the MCP does -- and I feel that, here, the less obviously-canon books should be put to a test of some sort -- not just welcomed into the MCP with open arms. 

I was hoping you could provide a stirring and logical rationale for including the comics into MCP canon. 

Quote: 
>>>
I'll also admit I was miffed when you wrote " make THAT argument..." and capitilized "THAT," as if the argument I was putting forth was not sound. 
<<<

Well, I apologize for annoying you -- but, to be honest, I DIDN'T feel the argument you had put forth was sound. "The Marvel Universe has a Clark Kent, but it doesn't negate the DC/Marvel crossovers" didn't seem to prove much of anything, in my mind. 

Enda80, though, has put forth some compelling evidence furthering the "fictional yet canon" argument: Doctor Who is both a canon part of the Marvel Multiverse, and a TV show on Earth 616. 

This is *another* confirmed example of a series being both fictional and canon -- just as Marvel characters have been known to read DC Comics and see movies based on DC heroes -- then go cross dimensions and MEET them, without saying things like "hey, isn't that Chris Reeve and Michael Keaton?". 

I personally tend to treat all Marvel Universe references to "DC Comics", "Doctor Who" TV shows -- and now "Star Trek" TV shows, I suppose -- as set pieces. Props. It's a very rare day indeed when a *plot actually hinges* on the fact that Star Trek is fictional, or that Batman is a comic book in the MU. They can safely be written off as background elements, tossed out if need be like irreconcilable weather references or exactly which president is in office. 

But that's my *personal* feeling. The MCP may disagree -- although by default, I suppose we currently treat all references to "DC Comics" and "Doctor Who TV shows" as topical, since we've embraced the DC/Marvel crossovers and Doctor Who appearances as canon. 

So a good argument would be "if you can, and do, toss out all fictional references to DC Comics and Doctor Who ... why not Star Trek too?" 

The argument of yours that I *did* like, though, was that although the Byron Press editor may have explicitly said that no Byron Books are canon -- the Star Trek/X-Men novel wasn't published by Byron. Therefore, it's not explicitly non-canon -- not making it automatically canon, but giving it a shot to be argued INTO canonicity alongside the second Trek/X comic. 

Anyway, the plot of the Trek/X books holds up to our universe-to-universe standard -- the characters come from different dimensions -- and the world of "Star Trek" is comfortably down-to-earth enough that it could exist with the X-Men's world. (Now, if the X-Men had run into the Care Bears, forget it -- suspension of disbelief only goes so far.) 

So, since it fulfills most of our criteria for canon universe-to-universe crossovers ... all we need to clear is the "TV show" hurdle. 

So: 

Since we can, and do, toss out all fictional references to DC Comics and Doctor Who ... why not Star Trek too? 

-Jeph! 

PS: a quick reply to Enda80: 

Quote: 
>>>
That Galactus was shown as fictional in the Nth Man's world shows that it lies outside of the omniverse. 
<<<

As I understand it, you're misusing the term "omniverse". The Nth Man's world exists outside of the Marvel Multiverse -- but it must exist somewhere in the greater Omniverse -- where things like the DC Multiverse, Image Multiverse, and presumably Star Trek Multiverse exist. 

The way I understand the term "omniverse" -- there's NOTHING outside it.

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 10:25 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
TransFormers never explicitly contradicted Marvel Universe continuity that I'm aware of -- but there were events in the Generation 2 series like blowing up San Fransisco. 
<<<

Kang War, Washington DC. 

Quote: 
>>>
I suspect "it's out because they said it's out" is the main reason -- although I'd like to know precisely where that was said. 
<<<

And when, for that matter. Spider-Man and the Savage Land both appeared in early issues of Transformers, and Transformers antagonist Circuit Breaker appeared in Secret Wars II. It was apparent at the time that the Transformers series was a part of the MU. I don't recall the MU connection being denied until quite some time later. A GI Joe letters page (somewhere around #96-110) said that the GI Joe characters existed outside of the MU. By that point GI Joe and the Transformers indisputably shared a continuity: the GI Joe vs Transformers miniseries had repercussions in the main TF series, and GI Joe was used to launch the Generation 2 series. 

The Transformers UK series was definitely an alternate Earth (Death's Head visited there once), but it was divergent from the US Transformers series as well; for example, Bumblebee was destroyed by GI Joe in the US but was, IIRC, instead destroyed by Death's Head in the UK series. There are flashbacks in the US series (the Matrix Quest arc specifically) to events from the UK series that only confuse the issue. 

-Sean

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 10:50 pm    
By jephyork
Director

In "Incomplete Death's Head" #1, the TransFormers universe was explicitly stated to be a different universe than Earth-616 -- so even though it originally was meant to be the same, we've now got some in-book evidence that it isn't. 

So I guess the TF universe also has a Spider-Man, Joe Robertson, Dazzler, Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, SHIELD, Godzilla and Savage Land. And an alien costume, for some reason. Even though it diverged from the MU over 4 million years ago -- unless there are deactivated TransFormers lying in Washington State in the Marvel Universe.  

And I guess the Beyonder accidentally grabbed Circuit Breaker from the TF Universe in that SW2 issue. Ah well. 

As for TransFormers comic continuity: prepare for nerd digression. 

I personally see the TransFormers US and TransFormers UK stuff as occuring in the same continuity -- at least until TF UK #255, when the stories veer completely off of US canon -- it just happens to have the usual hiccups that most coexisting books suffer. 

I'm perfectly willing to assume that, after that the G.I. Joe team mis-assembled Bumblebee into Goldbug (GIJ/TF #4), Ratchet fixed him. (After all, how good a job could a bunch of fleshlings have done?) Then Bumblebee was blown up *again* (TFUK #114), and Wreck-Gar reassembled him *back* into Goldbug -- possibly based on blueprints that Bumblebee had saved in his brain. At that point Ratchet gave up and left him as Goldbug. (At least, until he had the opportunity to rebuild him back into Bumblebee AGAIN in TF #57.) 

It's my own personal theory -- but the TF UK comics were *clearly* meant to wind in and around US comics -- author Simon Furman took great pains to make them fit -- and I'm not going to let the Bumblebee/Goldbug hiccup ruin Furman's laudable efforts. 

(The other hiccup is that, in TF UK #125, they meet "Action Force" -- and yet they've met "the G.I. Joe team" prior to that in the GIJ/TF book -- but I'll let that one slide too. I could come up with an explanation that explains it -- and allows those Action Force stories to be canon, but doesn't require *all* the original AF stories to be included as well -- in a heartbeat.) 

Did I mention I really like the TransFormers UK comic? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 11:20 pm    
By Enda80

I am told that J. Jonah Jameson appeared in GI Joe#95 (via a groups.google.com search). 

Re; ominverse. It is interesting that Alan Moore used the term for Captain Britain before Mark Gruenwald wrote that Marvel Age article. You were right, I did intend to say multiverse. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/circuitb.htm 

Incidentally, contrary to a common misconception, G.I. Joe did in fact also exist on Earth-Transformers UK; when Action Force was cancelled, it became a back-up strip in Transformers. In Transformers#245, a story explained that both Action Force, active in Europe, and G.I. Joe, active in the United States, existed as organizations to oppose Cobra, and in that issue the two organizations merged to become G.I. Joe the Action Force to better stop Cobra conspiracies. As regards Earth-616, although in a storyline published in Web of Spider-Man#6 and Amazing Spider-Man#268, a special military organization led by a man who suspiciously resembled one of G.I. Joe's leaders appeared (Duke?), there exists no solid evidence that G.I. Joe existed on Earth-616. 

.................................... 
By the way, a similar situation to this happened with The 'Nam. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/phillipsicenam.htm 

According to the letters page of issue#8, though, The 'Nam was not a Marvel Universe title and did not take place on Earth-616. 
Ice Phillips is significant as the only known character introduced in The 'Nam to later appear in a mainstream title. While it is always fun to have a fringe book have a character who breaks into mainstream continuity, delineating The 'Nam's connection to Earth-616 is a bit challenging. 

The first problem is that, as they are written, The 'Nam stories implicitly take place in a world where there are no superhumans other than in comic books. The soldiers in the 23rd Infantry were shown with Nick Fury, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Fantastic Four, etc. issues countless times. In The 'Nam series, it was made clear that Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, etc. were all fictional to Ice Phillips and the other soldiers. That story in The 'Nam#41 where Ice Phillips imagines Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man coming to Vietnam made this abundantly clear. Yet, later Phillips showed up in War Zone and War Journal!

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 11:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
In Transformers#245, a story explained that both Action Force...and G.I. Joe...merged to become G.I. Joe the Action Force. 
<<<

That story was a continuity patch, though -- and a bad one. The original "Action Force" UK comics featured new and reprinted stories featuring the Joe characters -- but the reprints were edited, and the new stories written, as if the team name was "Action Force". THEN that weird minicomic in TF UK #245 tried to imply that "Action Force" and "G.I. Joe" were two different teams -- with two different memberships -- and that "Action Force" has originally been European. That doesn't wash with EITHER comic, G.I. Joe OR Action Force -- where in both cases only one large team existed, and was called either "G.I. Joe" or "Action Force". 

My feeling is -- the "Action Force" stories that crossed over with the TF UK comic (AF #24-27) are canon in the TF/GIJ universe (I mean, they've got to be) -- and in that story, "Action Force" was a one-time mission-specific codename for the Joe team. God knows why. 

But none of the other Action Force stories are canon, simply by virtue of the team being repeatedly called by a different name for no in-story reason. Sorry, but that continuity-patch comic in TF UK #245 doesn't fix the problem -- it makes it worse. (Am I to believe that Snake-Eyes and Scarlett have been on *different teams* this whole time?) 

And yeah, Jonah Jameson is in G.I. Joe #95 -- in a pretty funny cameo, asking a newspaper seller where the Bugle is. ("I don't sell that trashy rag.") Jonah's appearance does fit with the Peter Parker, Joe Robertson and Bugle newspaper established to exist in that universe in TF #3...  

Great, it's a Friday night and I'm geeking out about G.I. Joe and TransFormers comic continuity... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 11:48 pm    
By Jason Doty

Please define: Quote: 
>>>
the "TV show" hurdle.  
<<<

In my mind this is a story from one sci fi genre tieing in with another. 

Did'nt Spider-Man team up with Jay Leno and the Avengers go on Letterman, wasn't Professor X debating Stryker on Nightline. Granted these were the comic equivilent of personalities that exist in the real world and the Marvel Universe, does that make it any less fun or believable. 

The X-Men teamed up with the comic versions of the Star Trek series, does this make it more acceptable to you? 

The comic is not presented as the X-Men come to the real world. 

I can't think of any other way to present this to make it convincing to the moderators, administrator, or other members that contribute to the project. 

Would anyone else like to see these cross-overs added to the MCP? I could use some help in the convincing area. Please wiegh in.

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Posted: 18 Feb 2005 11:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Re: the 'Nam... 

Marvel Comics, of a sort, do exist in the Marvel Universe -- comics featuring fictionalized stories of the heroes who really exist in the MU. It's not inconceivable that the soldiers in the 'Nam could be reading those based-on-a-true-story Earth-616 Marvel Comics. 

Was there anything else in the 'Nam series that cemented the FF, Iron Man, Thor etc. as "fictional", other than the comic books the soldiers were reading? 

-Jeph! 
(first person to bring up the Marvel Sliding Timeline that now says that these heroes all debuted *after* the Vietnam War gets a sock in the snoot.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Feb 2005 12:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

Jason, I still don't get your argument. I'm on your SIDE -- but I don't see how the points you've put forth help your case. 

The Marvel Universe has a version of Jay Leno ... it has a version of Letterman and Nightline. There's no real problem there. Nobody's saying that this is a crossover with "the actual real-world Jay Leno" -- it's clearly the "Earth-616 version" of the guy. 

It's still not the same thing as the X-Men travelling to a universe that they can also watch on TV. 

Quote: 
>>>
The X-Men teamed up with the comic versions of the Star Trek series, does this make it more acceptable to you? 
<<<

I don't get what you mean here. 


Quote: 
>>>
The comic is not presented as the X-Men come to the real world. 
<<<

No -- it's presented as "the X-Men travel to the Star Trek universe." The trouble is -- again -- that the X-Men have also watched Star Trek on TV. And they know it to be fictional. The denizens of the Marvel Universe know that "Captain Kirk" is a fictional character played by (the Earth-616 version of) William Shatner -- there shouldn't BE a "Star Trek universe" that the Marvel Universe can cross INTO. 

Star Trek is *fictional* in the Marvel Universe -- therefore Star Trek can't ALSO exist as a *real* alternate dimension in the Marvel Multiverse. 


I think I've made the counter-argument FOR you, to be honest: Marvel characters have also referenced DC Comics and Doctor Who as fictional -- yet we know they're real and have visited the Marvel Universe. So there's a precedent for the pop-culture references to the properties to be thrown out, ignored in favor of the references to the properties being real alternate dimensions. 

Should we do the same with the Star Trek comics? That's the question. 


We decided that Doctor Who was real because his appearances have made some ripples in canon Marvel books BESIDES his own title. He met Death's Head, who went on to meet Earth-616 characters like the FF -- and it was revealed in "Incomplete Death's Head" #12 -- in which Doctor Who *appeared* -- that he was the one who sent Death's Head to the MU in the first place. So, there -- obvious ripple effects seen in indisputably canon comics. 

I'm not sure if we've seen the same ripple effects with DC crossovers -- but the crossovers sure appear to be canon as far as DC's concerned. Access (native to the Marvel Universe) has appeared in Green Lantern; Kurt Busiek's current JLA arc with the Crime Syndicate of Amerika allegedly picks up on the end of JLA/Avengers; and Chris Claremont's Sovereign Seven had a coffee bar that was a junction point to every dimension in existence -- including the Marvel Universe, as characters like Nick Fury, Wolverine and Shadowcat would make cameos from time to time. Sure, the coffee bar was an in-joke taken too far, but all signs point to DC acknowledging the existence of the Marvel Universe as a part of the DC Multi- or Omni-verse. 

(Also, the S7 prequel story in Showcase '95 #12 followed up on events in the "Uncanny X-Men and the New Teen Titans" one-shot -- even though THAT story occured on a world where Marvel and DC co-existed, and therefore wasn't canon as we consider it.) 

So -- is there any evidence that the events in the Trek/X books made ripples in other, canon books? 


Alternately -- is there anything in either Trek/X book that actively goes AGAINST established continuity? If so, I'd say that's a strong indicator to just toss them out, rather than grunt and strain to make them fit. 


What does everyone else say? Toss the Trek pop-culture references, in favor of the notion that it's a canon alternate dimension? Or vice versa? 

And in either case -- why? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Feb 2005 12:19 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Would anyone else like to see these cross-overs added to the MCP? I could use some help in the convincing area. Please wiegh in. 
<<<

Are you sure? What if we were to weigh in on the other side? 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Did'nt Spider-Man team up with Jay Leno and the Avengers go on Letterman, wasn't Professor X debating Stryker on Nightline. Granted these were the comic equivilent of personalities that exist in the real world and the Marvel Universe, does that make it any less fun or believable. 
<<<

Well, no, certainly not, but it could be more fun than a barrel of monkeys, and still not be canon. What does fun and believable have to do with it? 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The X-Men teamed up with the comic versions of the Star Trek series, does this make it more acceptable to you? 
<<<

Not sure you want to go there, since the comic versions of the Star Trek series have never been canon. 

The fact that this comic apparently continues into a prose novel is not a small point against it. And I'm not inclined to add prose novels from any publisher to canon, because the next step after that will be people wanting to add the various computer games to canon, and then coloring books, and then viewmaster reels, and so on. 


watching: aliens

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Feb 2005 12:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

Russ, didn't you say once that the purpose of the MCP was to include "every canon appearance" of Marvel characters -- be it a billboard, gum wrapper, or whatnot? Emphasis on CANON appearance, of course, but we made an exception for a single Gambit Webcomic -- it wouldn't be outside the bounds of reason to include a single novel. 

And even if we don't -- the novel ties up the end of "Star Trek / X-Men: Second Contact". Even if we use guilt-by-association to knock "Second Contact" out of continuity -- instead of presuming that the novel wasn't canon but the one-shot was wrapped up in an unpublished comic-format story -- the first Trek/X one-shot could still be included, as it doesn't reference the second comic or the novel in any way. 

Wow, I'm playing Devil's Advocate to BOTH sides! This is a weird thread! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Feb 2005 12:33 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
What does everyone else say? Toss the Trek pop-culture references, in favor of the notion that it's a canon alternate dimension? 
<<<

Jeb Stewart Magruder in All the President's Men wrote: 
>>>
Let me put it this way: I would have no problem, if you were to say that. 
<<<

One would have to think that there were metafictional references to Godzilla, before Marvel got the rights to the character, and those stories were clearly canon. 


watching: aliens

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Feb 2005 12:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

Nice, Russ -- I can't believe I was overlooking the big guy. 

Folks, this has been fun but I'm heading to bed. I'll catch up with the thread in the morning... 

Jason, looks like Jeb Stewart Magruder gave you some tacit approval there. Just for fun, where would you recommend placing the second Trek/X one-shot? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:56 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Russ, didn't you say once that the purpose of the MCP was to include "every canon appearance" of Marvel characters -- be it a billboard, gum wrapper, or whatnot? 
<<<

I don't think so. Perhaps you're thinking of my evil twin brother, Rufus. I mean, every canon appearance, certainly (but that's what this discussion is all about, right?), but I can't imagine ever extending that to billboards, gum wrappers and whatnots, because I don't think they *are* canon? Gosh, maybe I did. But if I did, I guess I retract it, huh? 

Does anyone here think that the VISA commercial that aired during the Super Bowl was canon, just because it doesn't contradict continuity? Seriously? 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Emphasis on CANON appearance, of course, but we made an exception for a single Gambit Webcomic -- it wouldn't be outside the bounds of reason to include a single novel. 
<<<

Those are not equivalent. The Gambit webcomic was published by Marvel. 

And for the record, I was also against including the webcomic, so my reluctance here should hardly come as a surprise. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And even if we don't -- the novel ties up the end of "Star Trek / X-Men: Second Contact". Even if we use guilt-by-association to knock "Second Contact" out of continuity -- instead of presuming that the novel wasn't canon but the one-shot was wrapped up in an unpublished comic-format story --  
<<<

Agreed. I'm open-minded about either option. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Wow, I'm playing Devil's Advocate to BOTH sides! This is a weird thread! 
<<<

I don't know about Devil's Advocate. You sound more like the defense attorney who's leading his witness (Jason).  


watching: aliens

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:09 am    
By Jason Doty

Jeph wrote 
>>>
Toss the Trek pop-culture references, in favor of the notion that it's a canon alternate dimension? Or vice versa?  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Star Trek is *fictional* in the Marvel Universe -- therefore Star Trek can't ALSO exist as a *real* alternate dimension in the Marvel Multiverse.  
<<<

I'm not in favor of dropping the references to pop culture. In the Superman/FF cross-over, Franklin was watching a Superman cartoon and Superman still came to the Marvel Universe. Why coud'nt the X-Men go to the "Star Trek" universe. Both can exist. 


The Administrator wrote 
>>>
Are you sure? What if we were to weigh in on the other side?  
<<<

Ultimately the end decision is going to be decided by you (the administrator). So, I'm not upset if people weigh in against me. Your going to administer your decision based on the evidence. I was just trying to recruit help, because I can't seem to gain any footing for my argument. 


Jeph wrote 
>>>
Doctor Who was real because his appearances have made some ripples in canon Marvel books BESIDES his own title. 
<<<

The fact that the story is finite and does not make ripples is my reasoning for including it, it does not interupt the continuity or flow of the Marvel Universe, it just enriches it. 


The Administrator wrote 
>>>
because the next step after that will be people wanting to add the various computer games to canon, and then coloring books, and then viewmaster reels, and so on.  
<<<

I appreciate you guys going both ways on this and no I'm not for adding just anything. Very few times can I think of that a comic has crossed into another medium with a comic. I believe thier was a Beast /Spider-man crossover that connected with the newspaper strip Spider-man, the Marvel web comic, and possibly this one novel. I don't believe your going to get iniidated with issues of this type. It's very rare.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:22 am    
By Enda80

One would have to think that there were metafictional references to Godzilla, before Marvel got the rights to the character, and those stories were clearly canon. " 

Hmm... Godzilla debuted in the real world in movies in 1954; Marvel got the rights around 1977. So that is 23 years to place with. 

Actually, though, we can write this off because Godzilla#1 and #2 establish that on Earth-616, Godzilla was active in the 1950's for a brief period of time before going into hibernation. So, any references to him can be approached as the Earth-616 Japanese making fictionalized movies about him before he revived in the modern era. 

Actually, Saga of the Original Human Torch#4, the Jim Hammond Torch did make a bit of a slip by apparently referring to Godzilla as fictional. My solution; as in the real world, the Earth-616 Godzilla films lurched into Godzilla vs. Megalon (the worst entry to many, though budget video producers have made widely available at Building 19, the dollar store, flea markets, and Buck a Book, and the .99 cent bin), so that many people forgot that there had once been a real Godzilla, his fame eclipsed by other monsters since.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:23 am    
By Jim Smith

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Jeph wrote 
>>>
Star Trek is *fictional* in the Marvel Universe -- therefore Star Trek can't ALSO exist as a *real* alternate dimension in the Marvel Multiverse.  
<<<

I'm not in favor of dropping the references to pop culture. In the Superman/FF cross-over, Franklin was watching a Superman cartoon and Superman still came to the Marvel Universe. Why coud'nt the X-Men go to the "Star Trek" universe. Both can exist. 
<<<

I'm not against the idea that what is considered fiction in the MU is reality in some alternate universe (DC has done this in several crossovers, not the least of which being the introduction of Earth-2), but there is a complication if the X-Men meet the Enterprise crew and don't say "Aren't you those guys from that TV show?" 

We know there's a Star Trek franchise in Marvel canon, and I'm sure among the countless references made to its existence there's enough to confirm that it's Star Trek as we know it, with Kirk and Spock and so forth. If the premise of the crossovers was that there is no TV show because it all actually happens in the future, then I don't see how it could be canon, notwithstanding some reality-warping whatsis that causes crossover amneisa like the DC/Marvel team-ups

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:35 am    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
In "Incomplete Death's Head" #1, the TransFormers universe was explicitly stated to be a different universe than Earth-616 -- so even though it originally was meant to be the same, we've now got some in-book evidence that it isn't. 
<<<

I'm willing to assume that there are two broadly similar TF universes, one of which is Earth-616, and the two share most events except for obviously irreconcilable ones like the TFUK stuff you cited. So Death's Head's TF universe is an alternate one, but that doesn't mean that the Transformers (or GI Joe) don't exist on Earth-616. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:19 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
I'm not against the idea that what is considered fiction in the MU is reality in some alternate universe (DC has done this in several crossovers, not the least of which being the introduction of Earth-2), but there is a complication if the X-Men meet the Enterprise crew and don't say "Aren't you those guys from that TV show?" 

We know there's a Star Trek franchise in Marvel canon, and I'm sure among the countless references made to its existence there's enough to confirm that it's Star Trek as we know it, with Kirk and Spock and so forth. If the premise of the crossovers was that there is no TV show because it all actually happens in the future, then I don't see how it could be canon, notwithstanding some reality-warping whatsis that causes crossover amneisa like the DC/Marvel team-ups 
<<<

I think you're all missing a very important point: that there are fictionalized accounts of the Marvel characters themselves WITHIN the MU. As far back as FF 10, Mr. Fantastic had made a deal with Stan and Jack to publish their adventures. Now, as noted in the most recent issue of She-Hulk, most of these are considered true accounts, but there have been instances shown within the comics where some ficitionalization has occured. 

Now, on top of that, we have seen that movies and TV shows about the characters have been made within the MU canon using actors in place of the actual heroes. Offhand, I can think of a Fantastic Four movie that used a 10-foot robotic Thing; a She-Hulk movie that featured actors in the supporting roles of X-Men; a Hulk TV show starring Lou Ferrigno, Bill Bixby, and Karen Page; and a Thing TV show starring Simon Williams. 

Which leads me to: why would MU characters -- who are fully aware of the differences between their reality and their fiction -- not be able to differentiate the two? Why wouldn't they just assume that these people they just met (Kirk, Spock, McCoy, et. al.) were time-travellers who happened to meet Gene Roddenberry at some point, giving him the idea for the show starring actors to play them?

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:08 am    
By Dhall

There was also that X-Men movie in X-Men unlimited, and that month whre Marvel published the 'Marvel Comics' as they appear on 616 earth.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:17 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I appreciate you guys going both ways on this and no I'm not for adding just anything. Very few times can I think of that a comic has crossed into another medium with a comic. I believe thier was a Beast /Spider-man crossover that connected with the newspaper strip Spider-man, the Marvel web comic, and possibly this one novel. I don't believe your going to get iniidated with issues of this type. It's very rare. 
<<<

I wasn't referring to you specifically. But as soon as we add a prose novel, Sam Slabamovich is going to step in and say, "Wait a minute. We added that novel. We need to look at that VISA commercial. Why isn't that canon? We should add that." 

What do we tell him? 

Look at it this way. You, personally, have a real hankering to see the novel added to the Project. You don't care about the coloring books and the viewmaster reels. But that's you, personally. Sam Slabamovich cares differently. It's not really that I'm the Administrator, and what I say goes (although, thankyouverymuch). It's more that, as the Administrator, I--and the Directors--have to look at the wider impact--the big picture--on the Project, as a whole. 

I think you're making headway--and gaining converts--in your appeal to get the comic added to canon. But you've got a rugged road ahead of you for the novel. 


watching: angel

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:21 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
There was also that X-Men movie in X-Men unlimited, and that month whre Marvel published the 'Marvel Comics' as they appear on 616 earth. 
<<<

Many of these examples aren't really the same thing, because with Star Trek, we're talking about fictionalized stories about future events and characters. 

Sean Kleefeld's theory above about time travel can work to address the X-Men's apparent lack of confusion, but it does nothing to address my confusion, as I would have lost my suspension of disbelief. 


watching: angel

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:44 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Russ, didn't you say once that the purpose of the MCP was to include "every canon appearance" of Marvel characters -- be it a billboard, gum wrapper, or whatnot? 
<<<

I don't think so. Perhaps you're thinking of my evil twin brother, Rufus. 
<<<

Actually, I'm thinking of StAkAr Karnak, who on October 12, 2000, wrote: 


Quote: 
>>>
After a lot of thought on the matter, I now favor including the Gambit comic - not because of any love for the medium, but because I feel this would honor the spirit of the MCP, that is, to record every canon appearance of each character. This should hold true if the canon appearance were on a fruit pie wrapper, a billboard, a trading card or any other medium. Whether we have to *like* it is a different matter. 
<<<

I have no idea why that stuck in my head. 


Quote: 
>>>
I mean, every canon appearance, certainly (but that's what this discussion is all about, right?), but I can't imagine ever extending that to billboards, gum wrappers and whatnots, because I don't think they *are* canon? Does anyone here think that the VISA commercial that aired during the Super Bowl was canon, just because it doesn't contradict continuity? Seriously? 
<<<

I don't think you're taking my point. We both agree that, by and large, the ancillary stuff -- webcomics, fruit pie wrappers, Visa commercials -- are NOT canon. 

But StAkAr's point -- and now mine -- is that if we get some proof, in the form of references from other comics, that one of these seemingly non-canon adventures DID happen -- we should dub it canon, and include it, regardless of the fact that it's not a trdaitional printed comic. 

The adventure in the Gambit Webcomic was referenced in GAM3 #12 -- so we included it. That didn't make all the other cybercomics canon -- just the single exception, because we could prove it WAS canon. 

If we decide that "Star Trek/X-Men: Second Contact" is canon -- and it's continued into a novel -- perhaps we should include the novel as canon as well. This is NOT us saying that all novels are canon -- just this one exception, because it was continued from a canon comic. 

All the other novels? Put them in the pile with the fruit pie wrappers and coloring books. 

Quote: 
>>>
The Gambit webcomic was published by Marvel. 
<<<

I see your point, but we've included Marvel/DC crossovers that were published by DC, *with Marvel's approval* -- and Marvel UK comics that were published by Marvel UK *with Marvel US's approval* -- why not include something that was published by Pocket Books, *with Marvel's approval*? 

Remember, at the time Marvel had the license to produce Trek comics -- there was a "Star Trek Office" in the Marvel editorial department, and that was where both halves of this crossover were cooked up -- with approval from Marvel, Paramount and Pocket Books before anyone could move foreward. 

I don't think a one-time inclusion of a crossover novel is going to weaken our stance on what's canon and what isn't. 


Quote: 
>>>
I was also against including the webcomic, so my reluctance here should hardly come as a surprise. 
<<<

Heck, so was I initially -- rabidly so -- and I ended up writing the synopsis for the thing! 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't know about Devil's Advocate. You sound more like the defense attorney who's leading his witness (Jason).  
<<<

Yeah, I'm sorry, but the guy keeps shooting his argument in the foot. 

Like this: 

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Doctor Who was real because his appearances have made some ripples in canon Marvel books BESIDES his own title. 
<<<

The fact that the story is finite and does not make ripples is my reasoning for including it, it does not interupt the continuity or flow of the Marvel Universe, it just enriches it. 
<<<

What I'm saying, Jason, is that later books *referenced* the Doctor Who comics. The "ripples" they made aren't bad -- they're proof of the books' existence. 

Whereas -- since the Star Trek books are never referenced again -- they don't really "enrich the flow of the Marvel Universe". They don't disrupt it, sure -- but they haven't generated any ripples in later books that might help prove that they occured. 


By the way, I did a quick read-through of "Second Contact" last night, and it has to occur before X #62 -- the beginning of the story arc that culminates with Zero Tolerance and the X-Men returning home to a stripped mansion. (A footnote backs this up, saying that the book occurs before Zero Tolerance and Thunderbolts #10.) 

Luckily, I analyzed this period when I suggested changes for the 'New Mutants: Truth or Death" series last year, and I know that X #62-64 occur between pp.13-14 of EXCAL #114. That placement doesn't work for Nightcrawler, who appears in "Second Contact" -- he was missing at the time. So, backing up to just before his disappearance puts us between EXCAL #110-111. 

My chronology for that period has those issues between X #61 and UX #341 -- which works for the X-Men present in "Second Contact" -- but I also have X '97 in that gap. Arbitrarily, I suggest placing "Second Contact" after X '97 ... they're two standalone stories, and I'm placing them in order of publication. 

Banshee appears here somewhere shortly before GENX #25 -- and, I'm assuming, somewhere between GENX #23-25 -- but his chronology at that time is: 

GENX 23 
GENX '96 
H '97/2 
X '96 
GENX '97 
GENX 27/2 
GENX 25 

Does anyone have any suggestions where "Second Contact" should go? 

Ditto the Thunderbolts -- this occurs between TB #4 (where Jolt joins) and #10 (where the Fixer is killed) -- but are there any other placement clues? 

The only continuity problem that I see with placement at this time is that Wolvie looks human -- and at the time, he was at the tail end of his "noseless doo-rag" look -- but I'll chalk that up to artist's interpretation. Wolvie loses that look with no explanation between X #64-65 anyway -- and he showed up looking human in X #61 and X '97 as well -- so maybe it was X #62-64 in which he was drawn incorrectly? 

One other continuity nit: in the first Trek/X one-shot, the Enterprise crew had never heard of the Shi'Ar Empire -- it was shown to be a part of the Marvel Universe, not the Trek universe -- but in the second, the Enterprise crew recognize the X-Men's tech as Shi'Ar. (However, maybe the Enterprise-E just has the records of Kirk's scans of the Shi'Ar vessel from the first one-shot.) 

If we DO include the novel as canon, by the way, we may have been given a better explanation than "secondary mutation" for the healing ability Angel has displayed off and on over the years. When Dr. Crusher examines Warren in Sickbay, she discovers nanites in his bloodstream -- leftovers from his techno-organic wings, that in the novel are healing him at a faster-than-normal rate. This could explain how exactly his real wings were made to grow back under his metal ones -- how he developed glowing healing powers in W2 #147 -- and his current ability to heal people by touching them with his blood. 

Interesting stuff, huh? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:58 am    
By Jason Doty

If I'm reading everyone correctly, The main concensus is that everyone is not so much against the comic's, but the novel itself. 

If the comics make it and not the novel, I think we could approach this in a different maner, such as a disclamer. We add the comics, as they stand and in parenthisees or some other form of anotation, "story continued in non-comic format in..." or a link to seperate page explaining that the continuation is in pros format and not exceptable for inclusion in the MCP because of that format. 

I also believe in would be a diservice not to mention it at all. I'm definatly not for posting one and not the other because it's an integral part of the story. 

I'll post a general synopsis of all three in the issue analysis section and were I believe they should fit tentively. While the debates rage over inconclusion or non-inclusion.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
In "Incomplete Death's Head" #1, the TransFormers universe was explicitly stated to be a different universe than Earth-616 -- so even though it originally was meant to be the same, we've now got some in-book evidence that it isn't. 
<<<

I'm willing to assume that there are two broadly similar TF universes, one of which is Earth-616, and the two share most events except for obviously irreconcilable ones like the TFUK stuff you cited. So Death's Head's TF universe is an alternate one, but that doesn't mean that the Transformers (or GI Joe) don't exist on Earth-616. 
<<<

Well -- that's not exactly the writer's and editor's intent, is it? 

You can "assume" that there are two "broadly similar TF universes" all you like, one of which is the Marvel Universe -- but Marvel's official party line seems to be that, despite earlier evidence, the TransFormers and G.I. Joe do *not* exist in the Marvel Universe. 

I'd prefer to assume that the TF universe has elements from the Marvel mythos -- rather than assume that the Marvel Universe has TransFormers. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:07 pm    
By Dhall

If we decide that the novel is canon (and it was authorized, and second genesis refers to it as the continuation of the story) that would not set a president for any other novels to be canon (unless brought in by the comics themselves.) That would be the same situation as the Cybercomics, the Gambit one was referred to in a comic, and has therefore been brought into continuity explicitly. I would be ok with that for the X-Men/Star Trek novel. 

It does seem that Marvel meant it as canon (as much at least as the two X-Men/Star Trek comics are meant as canon.) So, if we decide that they should be included, we should also include the novel (unless it contradicts continuity.)

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Oh, and Jason -- here's a good example of a crossover comic that I tried, and failed, to justify. 

"Tutenstein". This comic presumes that Tutenstein (a kid mummy, his friend, and a talking cat, from the cartoon series) lives in the Marvel Universe -- and has him running into Spider-Man and the X-Men when they take some kids from Xavier's on a field trip to the museum he lives in. 

The details were right -- the X-Men ran a school and Wolverine knew Spider-Man's secret identity -- but I just can't buy that in the X-Men's world, a friendly kid mummy and a talking cat can exist, and that the X-Men would team up with them without batting an eye. 

"Star Trek", though, works, because it's grounded in science. Alien races, starships and time and dimensional travel are accepted aspects of both universes -- if nobody in the MU had ever heard of "Star Trek" as a fictional show, it would fit perfectly. 

(However, from the other viewpoint, mutated humans with powers and costumes don't fit so well into the Star Trek universe ... but that's not our concern.) 

I'll accept Wolverine meeting a Vulcan -- but not a talking cat.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:15 pm    
By Jason Doty

Quote: 
>>>
Banshee appears here somewhere shortly before GENX #25 -- and, I'm assuming, somewhere between GENX #23-25 -- but his chronology at that time is: 

GENX 23 
GENX '96 
H '97/2 
X '96 
GENX '97 
GENX 27/2 
GENX 25  
<<<

There is a break between GENX 24 and 25, and since Banshee isn't in 24 but Jubilee is in both 24 and 27/2 I would say that it goes between GENX 27/2 and 25.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:18 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't get your logic. Jubilee's presence in the books is immaterial, and doesn't help us nail anything down. Banshee *could* appear between Gen X #27/2 and #25 -- but he could also appear between ANY two stories on that list -- even before Gen X #23, if need be. 

We know from my placement that "Second Contact" occurs after Graydon Creed's assassination. Do any of the books in there -- Gen X #23, Annual '96 and '97, Hulk Annual '97/2, or X-Men Annual '96 -- make reference to his ongoing campaign? 

If they place themselves before Creed's assassination, we can place "Second Contact" after them. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:22 pm    
By Jason Doty

This is a joke: 

Quote: 
>>>
I'll accept Wolverine meeting a Vulcan -- but not a talking cat.  
<<<

But a talking duck like Howard is cool!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:12 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The only continuity problem that I see with placement at this time is that Wolvie looks human -- and at the time, he was at the tail end of his "noseless doo-rag" look -- but I'll chalk that up to artist's interpretation. Wolvie loses that look with no explanation between X #64-65 anyway -- and he showed up looking human in X #61 and X '97 as well -- so maybe it was X #62-64 in which he was drawn incorrectly? 
<<<

Yep, if that's the Kingpin/Shang Chi/Hong Kong arc - Pacheco messed up. In concurrent and earlier issues of Wolverine, he'd returned to his normal mask & unripped costume

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:24 pm    
By Jim Smith

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
I'm not against the idea that what is considered fiction in the MU is reality in some alternate universe (DC has done this in several crossovers, not the least of which being the introduction of Earth-2), but there is a complication if the X-Men meet the Enterprise crew and don't say "Aren't you those guys from that TV show?" 
<<<

I think you're all missing a very important point: that there are fictionalized accounts of the Marvel characters themselves WITHIN the MU. 
<<<

I'm well aware of this, but don't see what it has to do with anything. We're not debating whether the Marvel characters can exist simultaneously as comic books and real people in the Star Trek universe. We're debating whether Star Trek can exist as a TV series and as a real alternate future in the Marvel Universe. 


SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Which leads me to: why would MU characters -- who are fully aware of the differences between their reality and their fiction -- not be able to differentiate the two? Why wouldn't they just assume that these people they just met (Kirk, Spock, McCoy, et. al.) were time-travellers who happened to meet Gene Roddenberry at some point, giving him the idea for the show starring actors to play them? 
<<<

Because that's a very implausible assumption. The comic book loosely based on the X-Men is presented as just that--it's not claiming the X-Men are fictional characters, and everyone knows there are real X-Men. The Star Trek show, as far as anyone in the MU is concerned, is a complete and utter fiction. If the MU Gene Roddenberry was inspired by time-travellers, he presumably didn't announce it or wasn't taken seriously. So when the X-Men meet Kirk, they're still going to be very surprised, because up until the meeting they would believe he was as fictional as Santa Claus. 

Of course, once faced with the existence of both the Trek show and the real Kirk, the X-Men would probably wonder what the deal was and come up with the theory you presented about Roddenberry meeting Kirk. If I met Captain Kirk, this would certainly pop into the back of my mind as a working theory, but it's such an incredible concept that I would ask Kirk about it. This is not a situation where you just think to yourself "Oh, Kirk must have met Roddenberry at some point," and don't discuss it at all. Especially when you have Kirk right there to confirm or deny that he personally inspired Star Trek and that the show is loosely based on his adventures. (For all I know, the X-Men do ask about it in the crossover, but my guess is that they don't or we wouldn't be having this discussion.) 

If the X-Men never show any indication that they've watched Star Trek or heard of Kirk, and if they never even speculate as to how a man from 2266 can be just like a TV show written 300 years earlier, then I would say the X-Trek crossovers have to occur in a little separate continuity where there was no Star Trek show, and the age of superheroes is followed by World War III and the founding of the United Federation of Planets.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:42 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I would say the X-Trek crossovers have to occur in a little separate continuity where there was no Star Trek show, and the age of superheroes is followed by World War III and the founding of the United Federation of Planets. 
<<<

Well, not quite -- it's made very clear in the crossover comics that the Trek characters are from a different dimension than the X-Men. There's no need to suppose that the "age of superheroes", meaning the present day of the two books, would have to be followed by events that set up the Star Trek timeline. 

So the point of your argument that still stands is: "I would say the X-Trek crossovers have to occur in a little separate continuity where there was no Star Trek show". 

But haven't we addressed exactly that earlier in this thread -- with the MU's fictional references to Godzilla, DC Comics and Doctor Who, that we're just going to have to shrug and ignore? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:42 pm    
By Enda80

"So when the X-Men meet Kirk, they're still going to be very surprised, because up until the meeting they would believe he was as fictional as Santa Claus." 

Jubilee met Santa Claus. He met Howard the Duck and has appeared in many places, so he does exist on Earth-616.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

But when Jubilee met Santa -- she was surprised. Because she believed him fictional. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:07 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godzilla.htm 
(Godzilla #1-2 [fb]) - Whatever his origins, Godzilla was first seen when he surfaced off the coast of Japan in 1956, during nuclear testing. Dr. Yuriko Takaguchi was present during this testing as a passive resistant and witnessed Godzilla's arrival. Godzilla rampaged through the city of Tokyo on more than one occasion. Other monsters, similarly revived by the nuclear testing, also surfaced and attacked Tokyo, and Godzilla fought several of these creatures. 

Wasn't it stated that Godzilla also disappeared during the 1950's or went out of sight? 

So, as stated earlier, if in any comic published from 1961 to 1976 or so has someone mentioning Godzilla, we can say that they were aware of him through fictionalized movies that distorted the truth, especially Godzilla versus Megalon. Perhaps, after a while, the Japanese government started a disinformation campaign to get people to think that Godzilla was only a movie character. 

A similar situation exists with Dracula (Bram Stoker working off of a stolen diary marvunapp.com/Appendix/draculav.htm) the Frankenstein Mosnter (Mary Shelley meets Captain Walton pace Doctor Strange III#37 et al.), Varney (pace Doctor Strange III#15/2), and so forth. 

Conan (and Kull, along with Red Sonja but not Solomon Kane or Bran Mak Morn) presents a tricky case. Conan did exist in the past, but there are also comic books about him. 

As far as Conan goes, there are actually some references which make 
it clear that, apparently, the Earth-616 universe had a Robert E. 
Howard who somehow tuned into "racial memories". 

-In Avengers#129, when the Swordsman fought Amenhotep, he thought of 
Robert E. Howard, and even invoked Crom. 

-In Fantastic Four I#176, the Earth-616 Marvel Bullpen was shown 
working on a Red Sonja comic. 

-A boy is shown with a Hyborian themed comic in Avengers Annual#18. 

-In Doctor Strange III#9, on page 16, Morgana Blessing refers to a 
monster alien as a cross between Conan and the monster from alien. 

-In Doctor Strange III#13, Morgana Blessing called Arkon a "Conan 
clone". 

-When Kulan Gath reverted Manhattan to the Hyborian Age, Spider-Man referenced Hyborian themed movies on Earth-616-as did the Exiles in an alternate Earth take on this tale. 

-In an issue of Marvel Two In One, the Thing was shown reading the 
Hyborian Age comic strip. 

Incidentally, page 17 of Doctor Strange III#9, confirms that Earth- 
616 had an H.P. Lovecraft who worked as a fantasy author, but who 
may have tuned into the truth and disguised it as ficiton. 

As for the Earth-616 Robert E. Howard, Savage Sword of Conan#200 
features an odd story with Robert E. Howard. It was not made clear 
if this was supposed to be the Robert E. Howard of Earth-616 or 
the Robert E. Howard of a fallow Earth where the Hyborian Age, Kull, 
and Solomon Kane were not real. It seems to be the latter, but it is 
not made clear. 


From what I gather, on Earth-616 the Hyborian Age and the Thurian Age are apparently either unknown to the general public or not generally believed in or accepeted by archaeologists. (I would imagine most history books on Earth-616 place the beginning of civilization with Egypt or Sumeria around 3000 BCE.) Though some archaeological finds have appeared (ref Marvel Team-Up I#79), I would imagine only bigwigs such as the Sorcerer Supreme (the Book of the Vishanti mentions the Hyborian Age) and the Vatican (ref Doctor Strange III#13/2) know about it and believe in the Hyborian Age. Everybody else probably either never heard of it or thinks of it as just something for Fate magazine or the Fortean Times, if not the tabloids. 

(Since Bran Mak Morn and Solomon Kane lived during times documented by recorded history, it is easy to accept how Earth-616's Robert E. Howard could have heard of them.) 

I wrote this up around May. 
................................................................... 

An even closer analogy for the Star Trek meeting the X-Men; 

Hey has anyone on Earth-616 ever referenced H.G. Wells and The War of the Worlds? Wait, now that I wrote that Stakar Karnak and Don Campbell will start arguing (which is fun to see, by the way, keep it up). Those Martians actually existed on Killraven's world...and Earth-616 characters have met Killraven.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:16 pm    
By Enda80

When I tried to edit or make another post it keeps logging me out. 

By the way, this whole discussion reminds me of a conundrum regarding Sherlock Holmes. In ASM @14, Spider-Man referred to Sherlock Holmes as apparently a fictional character, as he did Spider-Man I#26 (guest-starring Captain Britain, Sherlock Holmes was mentioned, with it stated that there never was a 221 B Baker Street). However, Clive Reston from MOKF is obviously supposed to be related to Sherlock Holmes. (An ancestor who was a sleuth who enjoyed the violin and beekeeping.) 

Oh, and it seems to me that the Spider-Man meeting Killraven and the H.G. Wells derived Martians serves as an interesting comparsion. 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=413&start=0

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
However, Clive Reston from MOKF is obviously supposed to be related to Sherlock Holmes. (An ancestor who was a sleuth who enjoyed the violin and beekeeping.) 
<<<

I always interpreted that as an affectation by Reston, and always pictured Shang Chi, Leiko, Blackjack, and anyone else within earshot of rolling their eyes behind Reston's back, whenever he brought up the subject. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:32 pm    
By Enda80

In The 'Nam#41, Ice Phillips has Ice Phillips going through some Iron Man, Thor, Captain America etc. magazines. 

On page 2 panel 1 he says "Yeah, if only it was that easy...if only we really had super-guys in skin-tight outfits to clean things up for us". 

On page 19 last panel someone says "The reason people like lookin at a bunch of guys....there's no such thing!". 

Page 20 "anyone who would even imagine a group o'guys who would do something for nothin-" 

So, I would have to say that these guys are not complaining about Thor, Iron Man, or Cap not coming to Asia to help them, they are saying that they don't exist.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:55 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Well -- that's not exactly the writer's and editor's intent, is it? 
<<<

Oh, I know. Just because that's how I see it doesn't mean that that's how the canon universe is constructed. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:38 pm    
By Jim Smith

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I would say the X-Trek crossovers have to occur in a little separate continuity where there was no Star Trek show, and the age of superheroes is followed by World War III and the founding of the United Federation of Planets. 
<<<

Well, not quite -- it's made very clear in the crossover comics that the Trek characters are from a different dimension than the X-Men. There's no need to suppose that the "age of superheroes", meaning the present day of the two books, would have to be followed by events that set up the Star Trek timeline. 
<<<

All I know about either one-shot is that in the second one the NextGen crew beam down in front of the Thunderbolts, and Picard is barely interested in the existence of costumes superheroes. He reacts as if Riker had stumbled onto a Starbuck's--something suggesting they've gone back in time, but not something completely unfamiliar to his own universe. (For all I know, he's familiar with costumed superheroes because he read Kirk's log on the first X-Men crossover.) 

But yeah, the gist of my point is that, from what I understand, the Star Trek/X-Men crossovers portray the X-Men as being in a world without Star Trek. 


Quote: 
>>>
But haven't we addressed exactly that earlier in this thread -- with the MU's fictional references to Godzilla, DC Comics and Doctor Who, that we're just going to have to shrug and ignore? 
<<<

With DC there's a well-established out, in that any DC/Marvel crossover tampers with reality and alters memories. If Captain America can't remember his fight with Batman in Marvel Vs. DC #3 when he meets Batman in Avengers/JLA #2, it's possible he doesn't remember that Batman's appeared in five or six movies in his world either. I suppose you could argue the same phenomenon for the Star Trek crossovers, but I don't know that it's been spelled out as well. 

Godzilla and Conan could conceivably be in the same boat as the Marvel heroes themselves--that is, the Godzilla movies are documentaries and Robert E. Howards tales could be based on actual legends. It depends how hard you want to think about it. At least in those cases it would be people adapting events that had already occurred, which is more plausible than Roddenberry getting his ideas from Starfleet time travellers. 

I don't know nearly enough about Doctor Who to comment on him--I don't even know of any instances in which he met 616 characters. However, Doctor Who's name isn't quite the household word that Captain Kirk's is, so if he popped into 616 and someone like Wolverine showed no sign of recognizing him from the show, I could believe that. If Spider-Man acted like he'd never seen an episode of Doctor Who, I'd be more dubious. 

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:39 am    
By Jason Doty

Jeph! regarding the Thunderbolts appearance in ST:TNG/X. I don't own very many Thunderbolts issues, but cruising the web I came across a Thunderbolts site, called Thunderbolts the Complete History. They propose that this issue comes between TB 5-6, due to Techno's more human appearance. Does this jive with you Thunderbolts fans out there? 

Also, I'm going to hold off posting a synopsis for ST:TNG/X because the only two peices of value I can add to the disclaimer, and the work you have already done is: The weather is warm for short sleaves and shorts, and 4 Freedoms Plaza has the Thunderbolts logo on it. 

That would just leave Kang to figure out as far as placement.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:18 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
I'm well aware of this, but don't see what it has to do with anything. We're not debating whether the Marvel characters can exist simultaneously as comic books and real people in the Star Trek universe. We're debating whether Star Trek can exist as a TV series and as a real alternate future in the Marvel Universe. 
<<<

My point was that since that the Marvel characters have fictionalized accounts of their lives portrayed in various media, it's a logical conclusion for them to assume that the same thing happens to others. 

Quote: 
>>>
SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Which leads me to: why would MU characters -- who are fully aware of the differences between their reality and their fiction -- not be able to differentiate the two? Why wouldn't they just assume that these people they just met (Kirk, Spock, McCoy, et. al.) were time-travellers who happened to meet Gene Roddenberry at some point, giving him the idea for the show starring actors to play them? 
<<<

Because that's a very implausible assumption. The comic book loosely based on the X-Men is presented as just that--it's not claiming the X-Men are fictional characters, and everyone knows there are real X-Men. The Star Trek show, as far as anyone in the MU is concerned, is a complete and utter fiction. If the MU Gene Roddenberry was inspired by time-travellers, he presumably didn't announce it or wasn't taken seriously. So when the X-Men meet Kirk, they're still going to be very surprised, because up until the meeting they would believe he was as fictional as Santa Claus. 
<<<

You're making a leap that's not really justified. You and I recognize William Shatner as the man who portrayed Kirk on the TV show and in movies. Within the Marvel Universe, there was a William Shatner who played Kirk on the TV show and in movies. To get us to recognize a character as Kirk, he's going to be drawn to look like William Shatner. But -- and this is key -- he is NOT Kirk. 

We're seeing a simplified line drawing of a man who is supposed to represent Kirk. Just like we've seen line drawings of men who are supposed to represent Richard Nixon, John Wayne, and Jack Kirby. If you only knew these people by their drawings in the comics, you would probably be able to recognize them in the flesh. Because they're real people. Because Kirk is -- to us -- a fictional character, the only way we can recognize him is by representing the man who represented him in our frame of reference: William Shatner. 

The upshot is that the person the X-Men saw may not have looked exactly like William Shatner. If he had, then they would've said, "Hey, you look like William Shatner." 

You could talk about Hercules the same way. We know him (largely) as portrayed by George Reeves. But when the Avengers first saw Hercules in person, no one mistook him for George Reeves, despite a similar appearance from our perspective. (I even seem to recall some dialogue where characters did comment on the similarity, without mistaking one for the other.) Since we're dealing with a fiction within a fiction, we're not just dealing with distinguishing the actor from the character, but also the depiction of the actor who portrayed the character with the depiction of the character. 

Or how about this example... The Fantastic Four just met God. For us, he was very clearly drawn to be the spitting image of Jack Kirby. The FF have met Jack Kirby, though, and no one commented on the two looking the same. Because we're looking at the depiction of someone who -- for our purposes -- is intended to represent Jack Kirby. Were it actually Jack Kirby sitting in God's chair, the FF would've walked up and asked, "Um... Jack, what are you doing here?" There's an obvious visual similarity between the two, but within the MU there must be some distinguishing details that we're not seeing that allows characters within the MU to tell the difference between Jack Kirby and God. The same must hold for Kirk -- a simplified line drawing of him looks to us like William Shatner, but there are significant enough differences for MU characters not to confuse the two. 


Quote: 
>>>
but it's such an incredible concept that I would ask Kirk about it. This is not a situation where you just think to yourself "Oh, Kirk must have met Roddenberry at some point," and don't discuss it at all. Especially when you have Kirk right there to confirm or deny that he personally inspired Star Trek and that the show is loosely based on his adventures. (For all I know, the X-Men do ask about it in the crossover, but my guess is that they don't or we wouldn't be having this discussion.) 
<<<

Well, keep in mind that OUR experiences are significantly different than those of the X-Men. If I were to meet an alien species for the first time, or time-travellers, I'd have a very different reaction than they would. How many times have we seen an MU character say something to the effect of, "Oh, good. A completely new alien species trying to destroy the planet. Like I haven't seen that a million times already"? The strange and unusual is par for the course for them and I would fully expect them NOT to be surprised or taken aback in the least.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:44 pm    
By Enda80

Mr. Kleefeld, George Reeves never played Hercules. Steve Reeves did, though. He played Hercules in two films. Of course, you are right that the Marvel version of Hercules mimics the mutton chops and beard look of Steve Reeves. 

Check it out 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0716302/ 

Often confused with, and is not related, to George Reeves, who played Superman on TV in the 1950s. While working on a studio next to the set where the Superman series was filmed, producers once threatened to fire George Reeves after an argument and replace him with Steve. 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0716302/bio

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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:04 pm    
By Jim Smith

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
I'm well aware of this, but don't see what it has to do with anything. We're not debating whether the Marvel characters can exist simultaneously as comic books and real people in the Star Trek universe. We're debating whether Star Trek can exist as a TV series and as a real alternate future in the Marvel Universe. 
<<<

My point was that since that the Marvel characters have fictionalized accounts of their lives portrayed in various media, it's a logical conclusion for them to assume that the same thing happens to others. 
<<< 


There's a big difference. If an MU person (be he an X-Man or whoever) sees a Fantastic Four comic on the racks, he's likely to think "This must be a fictionalized account of real people, since I know there's a real Fantastic Four who really do some of the things in these comics." If an MU person sees a TV show called Star Trek about a spaceship crew 300 years in the future, he's not very likely to think "This may be a fictionalized account of actual people in the future," because such a show would be much harder to base on real events, since those events have not happened yet. 

Is it possible, in the Marvel Universe, for a man in the 1960s to somehow learn of events in the 2260s and make a TV show about it? Of course. Do people in the Marvel Universe think this is a very reasonable possibility? No. Even characters like the X-Men, who know from personal experience that such a thing is not impossible, would be predisposed to believe that this sort of stuff happens to superheroes and mutants rather than TV executives. 

In fact, the existence of Marvel comics in the MU just reinforces my point. How many times in the Silver Age did we see average joes in the MU doubting the existence of Marvel superheroes, before their existence became common knowledge? The comics were all over the place as early as FF #11, and yet you could still find people in parts of the United States who thought the Fantastic Four weren't real. If they can't even believe comic book characters are based on people in the present day who frequently appear on the news, why would they believe sci-fi characters are based on real people without any evidence at all? 

And yes, the X-Men get that evidence in Star Trek/X-Men, but the revelation would be pretty stunning. I don't believe in Bigfoot despite the possibility that he exists. If I suddenly found myself face-to-face with Bigfoot, I wouldn't casually think "Oh, I guess those legends were based on fact after all." I'd say "Bigfoot!? What the heck? How can he be real?" 


SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
You're making a leap that's not really justified. You and I recognize William Shatner as the man who portrayed Kirk on the TV show and in movies. Within the Marvel Universe, there was a William Shatner who played Kirk on the TV show and in movies. To get us to recognize a character as Kirk, he's going to be drawn to look like William Shatner. But -- and this is key -- he is NOT Kirk.  
<<<

OK, the X-Men aren't going to recognize Kirk as having the same face as the actor who played him on Star Trek. But come on, they're aboard a starship named Enterprise in the future with a captain named Kirk and a doctor named McCoy and an engineer affectionately called Scotty--and they're not going to comment on, let alone notice, the incredible similarity to Star Trek? 

We could take your premise a step further and say that not only does Shatner not resemble Kirk, but that the ship, the uniforms, the names, and places are all different as well. We could say Roddenberry somehow learned of the future and made a show about it, but changed a lot of the details or just got them wrong. For example, suppose the X-Men don't realize the real Captain Kirk has the same name as Star Trek's Kirk because the MU's Star Trek about the Starship Endeavour, commanded by Major Jones. 

But at this point we'd be arguing that the Marvel Universe's Star Trek is radically different from the TV show we watch. I don't have a list of instances in which MU characters talk about the show, but I would imagine such references would assume that the MU's Star Trek is the same as our own--characters are going to say stuff like "He's dead Jim," or "Beam me up Scotty" and so forth. 


SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Well, keep in mind that OUR experiences are significantly different than those of the X-Men. If I were to meet an alien species for the first time, or time-travellers, I'd have a very different reaction than they would. How many times have we seen an MU character say something to the effect of, "Oh, good. A completely new alien species trying to destroy the planet. Like I haven't seen that a million times already"? The strange and unusual is par for the course for them and I would fully expect them NOT to be surprised or taken aback in the least. 
<<<

The X-Men react differently to aliens than I would because the X-Men have met more aliens than I have. They'd never been transported to a reality which they had believed to be a TV show before. That is not the same as going to an alien planet, another point in time, or to an alternate universe. People believe these things are impossible but at least conceivable. Winding up in the world of a fictional story (or a world you believe to be purely fictional) is something else entirely. I don't expect to ever set foot on Pluto or in Doctor Doom's Latveria, but at least with Pluto I'd have some idea how I got there. 

So I think I can safely assume that their reaction would at least be "Hey, wait a minute...this is kinda like that TV show, isn't it? How is that even possible?" They don't have to be blown away by the realization, or even necessarily confused, but if they're from a Marvel Universe that has Star Trek as we know it, there's no way they can't make the connection.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:14 pm    
By Jim Smith

Not that I consider the comic canon, but if you're going to place it you might as well have as much information as you can get... 

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Jeph! regarding the Thunderbolts appearance in ST:TNG/X. I don't own very many Thunderbolts issues, but cruising the web I came across a Thunderbolts site, called Thunderbolts the Complete History. They propose that this issue comes between TB 5-6, due to Techno's more human appearance. Does this jive with you Thunderbolts fans out there? 
<<<

Techno's human body was killed in TB 7, and forced to place his mind in a robotic body in TB 8. There's no room between TB 6 and 7 for the T-bolts to meet Riker's away team. Jolt is also in the scene if I remember correctly, so the scene has to occur between TB 4 and 6. I don't think there's any way to pin it down better than that except by publication date. Bob probably has it between 5 and 6 because the one-shot came out a few months after TB 6.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:36 pm    
By Enda80

Mr. Smith, Captain Kirk never said "Beam me up, Scotty". He said "Beam me up, Mr. Scott".

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:15 am    
By Jim Smith

*sigh* 

Did I say Kirk said that, Enda80? No. I said people say "Beam me up, Scotty" in reference to Star Trek. That it's a mistaken reference is irrelevant to this discussion.

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:47 am    
By StAkAr Karnak

Well, well. 

First off, Jeph, I'm flattered that you recall a post I made back in Y2K. 

As for Enda80, I'm not about to jump into the Killraven debate again. The evidence is on the table and I've no longer the time nor the interest to sift through now. ::shrug:: 

So - STAR TREK/X-MEN. I'm *against* ruling it canon. 

The arguement that Kirk met Roddenberry is ridiculous. True, Dr. Crusher says in TNG/X-MEN "We've not only traveled back in time but sideways, to an alternate timeline!", followed by Worf saying "Parallel dimensions!". Even if Kirk met Roddenberry, why would he share such detailed knowledge of the future? There's a thing called the 'Temporal Prime Directive' which prohibts interference in the natural development of a timeline. And how could the Trek writers predict the development of events during after Kirk's time so that they mirrored so perfectly what happened in the "real" Trek universe? 

Couple this with the fact that Trek as fiction is already well established in the Marvel universe. In M/TIO 61, Starhawk teleports onto the Thing's kitchen table and the latter compares him to Spock. IIRC, Vance Astro compares Yondu to Spock at some point. 

In GSDEF 5, The Guardians of the Galaxy's starship, the USS Captain America, crashes in New York. Investigating the scene, Nighthawk finds the ship, which bears an uncanny resemblance to Kirk's Enterprise (even moreso to Archer's Enterprise, but I digress) and says "I think I've just discovered what they mean when they say "Star Trek lives!". This phrase was tied to Trek fandom, which the general population had an awareness of through coverage in the media, especially TV Guide. 

Why did the Captain America resemble the Enterprise? In GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, it was explained that most of mutanity left Earth and settled on Europa. They built three starships, the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria, to carry them out of the Sol System to a new planet the could settle on. The Captain America was one of those ships. It was built by mutants - probably including Beast. 

So then, if Beast knew about Trek fiction waaay before STAR TREK/X-MEN and it was such an influence on him, there is no way in my mind to suspend disbelief to allow for the X-Men's ignorance of the Trek universe in the crossover. 

By extension, since TNG/X-MEN is a continuation (references to the Shi'ar and the battle against Proteus/Gary Mitchell) of TOS/X-MEN, I'd opt to throw them both out of the continuity airlock. That'd render the novel debate moot as well, I think. 

That said, the "Dr. McCoy" and neck-pinch scenes were classic. 

- SK  
It's funny how everything relates to the Guardians of the Galaxy...

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:49 am    
By Jason Doty

In any reference made about "Star Trek" in the Marvel Universe, does the reader ever see what the Marvel telivision show looks like, or are references just made? 

Do we know there show has William Shatner, Lenord Nimoy, and so forth? 

Could the similaritity of the use of the name "Enterprise" have anything to do with the fact that the United States has ships and a space shuttle named by the same name? Both the X-Men and the crew's are from Earth, just different ones. (possibly a cosmic coincedence, that someone names a ship on a show and that the Federation uses the same name.) 

Durring the team-up's the X-Men meet the members of the Federation of Planets not T.V show actors of Star Trek. (I hope that sounds right) 

Why are we assuming that someone had to give the Gene Rodenberry of the MU the idea, does he exist in the MU? Could someone else come up with the idea in the MU? 

StAkAr Karnak wrote 
>>>
Vance Astro compares Yondu to Spock at some point.  
<<<

I'snt Vance Astro from an alternate time-line and future? 

As far as Beast helping to build those ships, Is that a fact? The nature of past cross-overs is that those who participated in them tend to forget, at least in the MU anyway, and if he did whose to say he did'nt have some kind of foggy recollection, hense the similarities. 

Just for fun in this debate, exatly how many times has "Star Trek been referenced in the MU? 

In the X-Men, Dave Cocrum drew a Shi'ar crew that resembled the crew of the "Star Trek" telivision show. (UX 105) and I think Kitty said "Beam me up Scotty!" (somewhere around UX 166). That's all I can think of from the X-Men comics. are there any more? That still dos'nt tell me what the show looked like in the MU.

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:18 am    
By jephyork
Director

I don't think there's any question at ALL that an absolute cartload of Star-Trek-as-fiction references exist in the Marvel Universe. 

The question is, are we gonna ignore them -- like we ignore the absolute cartloads of DC-Comics-as-fiction and Doctor-Who-as-fiction references? 

And that really boils down to a matter of personal opinion. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:25 pm    
By Dhall

Quote:
>>>
The question is, are we gonna ignore them -- like we ignore the absolute cartloads of DC-Comics-as-fiction and Doctor-Who-as-fiction references?
<<<

Here's the thing, from a chronology standpoint, ALL cultural refernces are topical. That's just how comics are. You have 60's references in the original run of X-Men, 90's references in HIdden Years, and 70's references for 94-on. 

Now, I know that's not the question we're asking here. I'm just making the point that pop cultural refernces are not reliable references, they are topical references. 

There are tons of DC as fiction references scattered about in the comics, yet we accept crossovers with the DC universe. There was a time when I would have argued against this, but those doors are already open. I see no difference in accepting that there are fictional references to the Star Trek Universe, and yet the characters can cross over. 

Yes, it means Marvel Earth is a weird and implausable place, but so what? We already knew that.

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:43 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
So I think I can safely assume that their reaction would at least be "Hey, wait a minute...this is kinda like that TV show, isn't it? How is that even possible?" They don't have to be blown away by the realization, or even necessarily confused, but if they're from a Marvel Universe that has Star Trek as we know it, there's no way they can't make the connection. 
<<<

We're starting to stray from the upshot of what I was trying to get at. We can argue until we're blue in the face about what any given character should or shouldn't have said or done. That's a matter of opinion -- yours, mine, the writer's, whomever. The point I was trying to make was that you can't negate the canonocity of the story based solely on the fact that there was a TV show within the MU that bore similarities to the "real" people and places shown in the crossover books. I haven't read these books -- I really don't know anything about them, honestly. But what I was responding to was your assertation that the "real" Kirk, Spock, et. al. were necessarily the same ones seen in the MU TV show, and that negates the possibility of the story being canon. That is simply flawed logic. 

There may well be other points that could throw these stories out of continuity, but the presence of a TV show using the same names and similar likenesses is not one of them. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
George Reeves never played Hercules. Steve Reeves did, though. He played Hercules in two films. Of course, you are right that the Marvel version of Hercules mimics the mutton chops and beard look of Steve Reeves.  
<<<

Of course you're correct. I knew "George" didn't sound quite right when I typed it, but I was being lazy and didn't bother to look up what the actor's name really was. Thanks for the correction.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:08 pm    
By BobMM

Quote: 
>>>
Techno's human body was killed in TB 7, and forced to place his mind in a robotic body in TB 8. There's no room between TB 6 and 7 for the T-bolts to meet Riker's away team. Jolt is also in the scene if I remember correctly, so the scene has to occur between TB 4 and 6. I don't think there's any way to pin it down better than that except by publication date. Bob probably has it between 5 and 6 because the one-shot came out a few months after TB 6. 
<<<

That would be me and, yes, I assume that books occur in publication order unless there is a compelling reason to sequence them otherwise. Second Contact was published at about the same time as Thunderbolts #12, with a text note that it takes place prior to #10. So I pushed it back to the closest (that is, latest) point in Thunderbolts chronology at which it could occur, taking into account the appearance of the human aspect of Techno. 

My task on The Complete History is a lot simpler than the Project's, because I don't have to worry about synching up with books in which Thunderbolts do not appear. In short, I made no effort whatsoever to ensure that my placement was consistent with the X-books of the period. That's your job, men, and good luck to you. 

After reading this interesting debate, I come down against including the Star Trek appearances as canon, for several reasons: 

(1) The rationalization gymnastics that the Pro side is going through to explain how Jean-Luc Picard, looking like Patrick Stewart, can meet Wolverine -- with neither of them commenting on the fictional source of the other -- are too difficult. No one's even addressed the Star Trek side of the problem: A little research by Data would certainly turn up the fact that the Thunderbolts are characters from historical comicbooks. To duck that point, now you've got to argue that these Star Trek characters aren't the same ones who appear on the TV series -- as the series is clearly intended to take place in real Earth's future. 

(2) The continuation of the comic into a novel seems to me to be a real blow against its canonicity as defined by the MCP. 

(3) If Second Contact is canon, then the Star Trek characters of the Traveller and Wesley Crusher can pop into the 616 universe whenever they want. And the original Thunderbird needs a chronological entry that puts him on Deep Space Nine . And Tasha Yar is tied up in the Days of Future Past alternate future. IMOHO those are worms the cans of which you do not want to open. 

(4) Second Contact is a lousy comic. I know that's not relevant in the abstract, but going through these gyrations to shove in a book that's not worth reading in the first place just seems wasteful of everybody's time. 

BTW, if you've ever got questions about THUNDERBOLTS (or about pre-Onslaught appearances of characters who will later become Thunderbolts), I'm your guy! 

- Bob

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:35 pm    
By Enda80

"A little research by Data would certainly turn up the fact that the Thunderbolts are characters from historical comicbooks. To duck that point, now you've got to argue that these Star Trek characters aren't the same ones who appear on the TV series -- as the series is clearly intended to take place in real Earth's future. " 

I would not place Star Trek in the real Earth's future. The Eugenics Wars are supposed to have taken place in the 1990's and involved the death of 30 million people. I don't recall any mention of that on VH1's "I Love the '90's".

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:45 pm    
By Enda80

Other differences between the real Earth's history and that of Star Trek Earth; 

no time-travelling Vulcan visitors (ref City on the Edge of Forever; by the way, this makes the 1930's native temporal inhabitants in that story the first humans to meet a Vulcan!) 

Jack the Ripper was not some sort of alien cloud (Wolf in the Fold) 

no hidden immortals (Requiem for Methuselah) 

Mark Twain never met a time-travelling android 

the Olympian Gods are purely fictional, they did not leave Earth to go elsewhere in the universe (Who Mourns For Adonis?) 

No Gary Seven (Assignment Earth) 

Anyone think of anything else?

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:08 pm    
By Jason Doty

Bob if the Thunderbolts site is yours, I applaud you on a very nice site and for giving us the placement for the Thunderbolts. It's nice that fans such as yourself give me another resourse for the comics I don't own. 

I would however like to adress some of your other concerns. 

Quote: 
>>>
No one's even addressed the Star Trek side of the problem: A little research by Data would certainly turn up the fact that the Thunderbolts are characters from historical comicbooks.  
<<<

Not necessarily, they are not from the same universe. Neither property is real, they are just two science fiction properties that are presented in a different format. Both are fiction. 


Quote: 
>>>
The continuation of the comic into a novel seems to me to be a real blow against its canonicity as defined by the MCP. 
<<<

I don't understand how this is a blow, The MCP is attempting to list every chronological appearance of the Marvel stable of characters. This is the first time in history that I can think of when a comic continues into a novel ( as stated in the comic, published by Marvel) and the novel does not 
contridict continuity. This is not a blow, it is an anomoly. 


Quote: 
>>>
If Second Contact is canon, then the Star Trek characters of the Traveller and Wesley Crusher can pop into the 616 universe whenever they want. 
<<<

So can the Justice League, This does not cause a problem. 


Quote: 
>>>
the original Thunderbird needs a chronological entry that puts him on Deep Space Nine . And Tasha Yar is tied up in the Days of Future Past alternate future. IMOHO those are worms the cans of which you do not want to open.  
<<<

No they do not, These were anomolies created when the Enterprise came to the Marvel Universe. Once they ran their course they ceased to exist. 


Quote: 
>>>
Second Contact is a lousy comic. I know that's not relevant in the abstract, but going through these gyrations to shove in a book that's not worth reading in the first place just seems wasteful of everybody's time.  
<<<

Placing any comic is useful, because it adds to the compleatness of the project. I always believed Howard the Duck was useless, but I know it belongs.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:27 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
no time-travelling Vulcan visitors 
<<<

How do you know? 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Jack the Ripper was not some sort of alien cloud 
<<<

How do you know? 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
no hidden immortals 
<<<

How do you know? 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Mark Twain never met a time-travelling android 
<<<

How do you know? 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
the Olympian Gods are purely fictional, they did not leave Earth to go elsewhere in the universe 
<<<

How do you know? 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
No Gary Seven 
<<<

How do you know? 

(Although, I will admit, if there had been any Eugenics Wars in the 1990's, we probably would have heard about that.) 


watching: area 51

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:40 pm    
By Dhall

Hmmn...this debate is getting off the topic. I don't think anyone here is attempting to suggest that Star Trek is the future (or preent) of Earth-616. It's not. If these comics are canon, they are canon in the same way that DC Vs Marvel, or JLA-Avengers are canon,through the intercompany crossover. 

I don't think that presents us with a very high barrier for inclusion of these comics, as the MCP already lists lots of universe to universe crossovers. 

And if the MCP can list a cybercomic, it can list a novel, so long as that novel is canon. (And since I haven't read the novel, I can't comment on that.)

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:07 am    
By Enda80

From wikipedia.org article on the Eugenics Wars 
However, the Star Trek: Enterprise episode "Borderland" reaffirmed in canon that 30 million people died in the conflict. 

Again, I do not recall any mention of this on "I Love the '90's".

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:37 am    
By jephyork
Director

Uh ... I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that "Star Trek" is the future of the REAL world either, Enda. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:40 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

For what it's worth, that's not what he's saying here. He's saying that Star Trek is not the PAST of the real world. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:00 am    
By jephyork
Director

Which is also a point that I don't think anyone's contending. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:52 am    
By BobMM

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
The continuation of the comic into a novel seems to me to be a real blow against its canonicity as defined by the MCP. 
<<<

I don't understand how this is a blow, The MCP is attempting to list every chronological appearance of the Marvel stable of characters. This is the first time in history that I can think of when a comic continues into a novel ( as stated in the comic, published by Marvel) and the novel does not 
contridict continuity. This is not a blow, it is an anomoly. 
<<<

I also meant to point out that the story launches from "Star Trek: First Contact"...so you've got a non-canonical movie on the front end, and a (probably) non-canonical novel on the back. It seems to me that it probably doesn't work to canonize just the middle piece of a story. 

Y'all sure have a lot of energy. 

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:19 am    
By jephyork
Director

The movie's canonical in the Star Trek universe, though. 

Remember, the comic isn't claiming that the Star Trek universe IS the X-Men's universe -- just that the two worlds exist, separately, somewhere in the omniverse ... and the Enterprise-E was thrown from one universe to another. 

-Jeph! 
PS - is anyone else pissed that "Enterprise" was cancelled? I know I am.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:24 am   
By Dhall

Again, how is this any different that DC Vs. Marvel? Dc characters appear in their own universe, in non (marvel) canon comics, then they appear in DC Vs. marvel (which is canon for both universes) then go off and appear in books that are non (marvel) canon.....

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:45 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
PS - is anyone else pissed that "Enterprise" was cancelled? I know I am. 
<<<

I don't watch the show myself, but most of my friends who've seen it loath it, saying it ignores the history set up in prior Star Trek series. Almost sounds like a continuity debate to me!  

And that's as far as I'm going to step into this thread. Sorry for the deviation off topic, (not that it's not deviating already). 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:48 pm    
By Jason Doty

Bob wrote 

Quote: 
>>>
I also meant to point out that the story launches from "Star Trek: First Contact"...so you've got a non-canonical movie on the front end, and a (probably) non-canonical novel on the back. It seems to me that it probably doesn't work to canonize just the middle piece of a story.  
<<<

Why are you making the assumption that the novel, is not canon. If you read it nothing in the book suggests it's not. It's just in a different format. 

I also believe we are leaving the chronolization of other properties to others who want to pursue that. As of now I believe we are only placing the Marvel Characters, So the DC Chronology project can place the DC characters appearance, and whomever is working on Trek chronology can place the Trek characters. We do not have to enter the Movie also.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I don't watch the show myself, but most of my friends who've seen it loath it, saying it ignores the history set up in prior Star Trek series. Almost sounds like a continuity debate to me! 
<<<

Ignores some, stays true to some, elaborates on some. Heck, it even fixes some -- the most recent episode actually explained why Klingons looked different on TOS than they did in the rest of the series! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Again, how is this any different that DC Vs. Marvel? 
<<<

DC vs. Marvel was a comic. This is a book. Now you may contend that you can overcome that difference, but it is a difference. When books that are licensed directly by Marvel are not canon, it's a stretch to see that this one is. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Why are you making the assumption that the novel, is not canon. If you read it nothing in the book suggests it's not. It's just in a different format. 
<<<

That's a pretty big "just". 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:02 pm    
By Jason Doty

Administrator, I'm curous if this would be a problem if it was not a cross-over comic? This is just a hypothetical: If Avengers no.2001 published by Marvel refered you at the end of the comic to a novel, would this much objection be raised. 

Are comic books the only resourse we use in determining chronology. In this case a comic produced by Marvel refered us to a novel, that they approaved. 

I know, this is a big strech for all concerned. In many cases the MCP determines BTS appearances by written dialog alone or utilizes the Marvel Index's or Marvel saga which are written in a different formats to place chronological appearances. Why not a novel that was refered to at the end of a Marvel Comic. 

The main reason everyone who has objected to it are mostly based on the fact that is a novel, rather than it does not fit within the characters chronolgy's. 

On the front page of this site 
Quote: 
>>>
If there's a particular character that's struck your fancy, that you just can't live without owning their every appearance, this is the place to start. 
<<<

I would like to stress the words "every appearance", I think it is worth are time to look at the book rather than the format that it's presented in, and giving it a fare shot based on it's content.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Administrator, I'm curous if this would be a problem if it was not a cross-over comic? 
<<<

It could be. Several of the novels "play off of" events in the non-cross-over comics, and yet are not canon. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
This is just a hypothetical: If Avengers no.2001 published by Marvel refered you at the end of the comic to a novel, would this much objection be raised. 
<<<

Speaking hypothetically, I personally would be more inclined to accept that novel as canon, in your example. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Are comic books the only resourse we use in determining chronology. 
<<<

My knee-jerk reaction is to say, "Pretty much, yeah," unless you have in mind some other resources that we've used in the past. But depending on how you want to define resource, we've used comments made by editors at Marvel. We've used Paul Bourcier's calendar, but I think Paul's usually pretty careful to use the comics, so I'm not sure that counts.... 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
In this case a comic produced by Marvel refered us to a novel, that they approaved.  
<<<

Marvel approves all the novels. Their approval is irrelevant, unless we're discussing something like fan fiction. Marvel produced comics which served as prequels to the X-Men movie, which referred us to the X-Men movie--which was approved by Marvel. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The main reason everyone who has objected to it are mostly based on the fact that is a novel, rather than it does not fit within the characters chronolgy's. 
<<<

...And that none of the novels are canon. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
On the front page of this site 
Quote: 
>>>
If there's a particular character that's struck your fancy, that you just can't live without owning their every appearance, this is the place to start. 
<<<

I would like to stress the words "every appearance", I think it is worth are time to look at the book rather than the format that it's presented in, and giving it a fare shot based on it's content. 
<<<

You're free to stress that, but I admit I find it an odd choice of phrase to stress. I myself tend to stress the part that says "this is the place to start." 

Just below the passage you've quoted, we ask visitors to first read the KEY, where (and this is pointed out on the home page) everyone will find out what we mean when we say "appearance." The FAQ also touches on this briefly, when we remind everyone that we're not the Marvel Appearances Project. So there are a number of conditions that are placed on the phrase "every appearance." 

But I think we are giving it a fair shot. That's what this whole discussion is about. But..."giving it a fair shot" doesn't mean that I agree with you. 


watching: people in the news

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I thought we'd been through this. The main reason we don't accept the the novels as canon is that the editor of the BYRON novels specifically said that none of the BYRON novels were canon -- right? 

Meaning, if it's NOT a Byron novel -- it's not AUTOMATICALLY non-canon. 

Sure, there's a whole host of other reasons why it might be non-canon -- but the rationale "the Byron editor said it was non-canon" doesn't apply, since this novel wasn't produced by Byron. 


Point two - there has NEVER been a case where a comic that purported to occur in the Marvel Universe specifically said "to be continued, in this novel". Ever. Until now. 

(The movie adaptations don't count, because even though they say "to be continued in this movie", they aren't 616 canon -- they occur in the movie's universe.) 

This is a case of a comic ending on a *cliffhanger*, and specifically directing its audience, on-panel, to the cliffhanger's conclusion in a novel. This is more than Marvel just "approving" the novel -- this is Marvel *directing* fans TO the novel *to see how the story ends*. 

This is Marvel saying "this particular novel wraps up the story from this comic". 

If this were an issue of Avengers, Russ claims he'd be more willing to accept the one single novel as canon. 

Are you having a harder time with this, Russ, because it isn't an issue of an ongoing canon series leading into a novel -- but a one-shot crossing over with a licensed property, which because of that is of dubious canonicity? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:43 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I thought we'd been through this. The main reason we don't accept the the novels as canon is that the editor of the BYRON novels specifically said that none of the BYRON novels were canon -- right? 

Meaning, if it's NOT a Byron novel -- it's not AUTOMATICALLY non-canon. 
<<<

No, of course it's not AUTOMATICALLY non-canon. If it were, why would we even bother to have this discussion? It would be NON-CANON. Case closed. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Sure, there's a whole host of other reasons why it might be non-canon -- but the rationale "the Byron editor said it was non-canon" doesn't apply, since this novel wasn't produced by Byron. 
<<<

Keith didn't decide on his own that the novels weren't canon. The decision was Marvel's. What it means, is that Marvel has established a precedent, that prose novels are not canon. What it means, is that a higher standard of evidence, a higher burden of proof, is required, to say that Marvel has changed that. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Point two - there has NEVER been a case where a comic that purported to occur in the Marvel Universe specifically said "to be continued, in this novel". Ever. Until now. 
<<<

Your premise isn't granted, since whether the comic does occur in the Marvel Universe is still up for discussion. And if we do decide that the comic is canon, the fact that there's never been a case like this before, simply means there's never been a case like this before. It doesn't mean we're required to declare the novel canon. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
This is a case of a comic ending on a *cliffhanger*, and specifically directing its audience, on-panel, to the cliffhanger's conclusion in a novel. This is more than Marvel just "approving" the novel -- this is Marvel *directing* fans TO the novel *to see how the story ends*. 

This is Marvel saying "this particular novel wraps up the story from this comic". 
<<<

Which, to many people, is just as good an argument as any other, for declaring the comic not canon. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If this were an issue of Avengers, Russ claims he'd be more willing to accept the one single novel as canon. 

Are you having a harder time with this, Russ, because it isn't an issue of an ongoing canon series leading into a novel -- but a one-shot crossing over with a licensed property, which because of that is of dubious canonicity? 
<<<

A combination of two things. 

1) Avengers is not the same thing. Avengers is unquestionably canon. This comic, in and of itself, has questions about its canonicity, which have been better raised elsewhere in this thread, by people who have actually read the book; 

2) From there, it continues into a novel, which brings up even thornier questions of canonicity. 

Point 1 is problematic in itself, but I would have an easier time conceding point 1, if it weren't for point 2. 

And while I'm on the subject, let me take a moment to clear up a misunderstanding that some folks have about web comics, who have said that the Board decided to include the single case of the Gambit web comic, because it was referenced in a published Marvel comic; therefore, we should feel safe including the single case of this novel. 

That's not what the Board decided. The Board decided that web comics (presumably published by Marvel) were canon, on a case by case basis, the same as comics. There was no specific exemption granted to Gambit, nor was the policy based on references in published comics. 


watching: jeepers creepers 2

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:30 am  
By Jason Doty

Administrator I'm confused on two points that seem to contradict one another. 

Quote: 
>>>
The decision was Marvel's. What it means, is that Marvel has established a precedent, that prose novels are not canon.  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Their approval is irrelevant, unless we're discussing something like fan fiction.  
<<<

Why would the weight of one oppinion they have count more than another, and would not count when they specifically send the reader to the novel. My point is that I'm in agreement with both. The novels printed in Byron press have been rulled as a seperate continuity amongst themselves, and I agree with Jeph! that the Star Trek novel is not part of this continuity and should be accepted on this bases. 

The only evidence brought against these have nothing to do with a continuity error, but artist and writer enthusiasm to pop culture. Not one person has come up with a solid reason that has anything to do with actual reasons of why it should be not included. 

I have tried arguing this on every level, The right characters appear in the right timeframe, and on every level appear to be the 616 X-Men and Thunderbolts. I can understand the purpose of being one hundred present sure about placement, but nobody has come up with any evidence contradicting how this could not be considered canon, other than pop culture references. Emma Frost was not rulled non-canon because she used a cell phone and it happened in the past. References to "Star Trek" in the Marvel Universe should be rulled as topical, just like presidents, weather, wars, and dates that don't work.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:08 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The main reason we don't accept the the novels as canon is that the editor of the BYRON novels specifically said that none of the BYRON novels were canon -- right? 

Quote: 
>>>
Keith didn't decide on his own that the novels weren't canon. The decision was Marvel's. What it means, is that Marvel has established a precedent, that prose novels are not canon. What it means, is that a higher standard of evidence, a higher burden of proof, is required, to say that Marvel has changed that. 
<<<
<<<

Okay, there we go -- that's the part I didn't know. I assumed that the Byron guy decided on his own that his novels weren't canon. You're saying, I take it, that although the information came from him, he was just relating what Marvel told him? 


Quote: 
>>>
if we do decide that the comic is canon, the fact that there's never been a case like this before, simply means there's never been a case like this before. It doesn't mean we're required to declare the novel canon. 
<<<

I ... suppose. 


Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
This is Marvel saying "this particular novel wraps up the story from this comic". 
<<<

Which, to many people, is just as good an argument as any other, for declaring the comic not canon. 
<<<

Right, that's what I was asking you below -- the fact the the comic itself is of questionable canonicity, is the fact that it's attached to a novel a point in favor of it being *non*canon, in your eyes? Looks like "yes". 


Quote: 
>>>
This comic, in and of itself, has questions about its canonicity, which have been better raised elsewhere in this thread, by people who have actually read the book 
<<<

The ONLY question is the Star Trek-as-alternate universe thing. Aside from that -- there's nothing to the X-Men's appearances or status quos that contradicts established continuity. 


Quote: 
>>>
I would have an easier time conceding point 1, if it weren't for point 2. 
<<<

...Yeah, I hear you on that. 


Quote: 
>>>
let me take a moment to clear up a misunderstanding that some folks have about web comics ... The Board decided that web comics (presumably published by Marvel) were canon, on a case by case basis, the same as comics. 
<<<

"We" did? I did not know that. 

Gonna be pretty hard to check the rest of the webcomics for potential canonicity, isn't it? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:13 am  
By jephyork
Director

And then there's this: 

Quote: 
>>>
References to "Star Trek" in the Marvel Universe should be rulled as topical, just like presidents, weather, wars, and dates that don't work. 
<<<

Succinctly put, and I agree. Russ, this is the "point #1" you felt you'd have an easier job conceding, if only the comic wasn't attached to a novel -- so, how do you feel about the *first* Star Trek/X-Men one-shot? It's not "attached" in any way to any novels, or to the second one-shot. 

If we don't like the "novel factor", we could potentially rule the second one-shot non-canon -- but keep the first. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:47 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Administrator I'm confused on two points that seem to contradict one another. 

Quote: 
>>>
The decision was Marvel's. What it means, is that Marvel has established a precedent, that prose novels are not canon.  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Their approval is irrelevant, unless we're discussing something like fan fiction.  
<<<

Why would the weight of one oppinion they have count more than another, and would not count when they specifically send the reader to the novel. 
<<<

You may have misunderstood my use of the word "approval," but that's only possible if you take the comment out of context, and remove the sentence from what surrounds it in the original quote. 


Jason Doty originally wrote: 
>>>
In this case a comic produced by Marvel refered us to a novel, that they approaved. 
<<<

Then I wrote: 
>>>
Marvel approves all the novels. Their approval is irrelevant, unless we're discussing something like fan fiction. Marvel produced comics which served as prequels to the X-Men movie, which referred us to the X-Men movie--which was approved by Marvel. 
<<<

Look at it this way. Did the X-Men movie have Marvel's "approval"? I say yes. Is the X-Men movie canon? I say no. "Approval" doesn't mean "canon". That's what I meant in your second quote of me above. Marvel's "approval" of the Star Trek book is irrelevant, in determining whether it's canon. In the first quote above, I've said that Marvel treats the Byron Preiss novels as not canon. 

(And before we go off on a tangent, before someone suggests that the X-Men movie isn't canon, because it contradicts the comics: No. The X-Men movie isn't canon, because it's a movie. If the movie contradicted nothing, it still wouldn't be canon, any more than fan fiction.) 

((And before we go off on another tangent, before someone says that fan fiction isn't canon, because Marvel doesn't approve it: Well, that's my point. Approval's not related to canon.)) 

So, no, I don't see how those two quotes are self-contradictory. Sorry. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
My point is that I'm in agreement with both. The novels printed in Byron press have been rulled as a seperate continuity amongst themselves, 
<<<

No, they were simply ruled not canon. Although an argument could be made that the novels were in their own (meaning "same") continuity, it's only relevant that they're not "Marvel" continuity. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
and I agree with Jeph! that the Star Trek novel is not part of this continuity and should be accepted on this bases. 
<<<

See my response to Jeph. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The only evidence brought against these have nothing to do with a continuity error, but artist and writer enthusiasm to pop culture. Not one person has come up with a solid reason that has anything to do with actual reasons of why it should be not included. 
<<<

Well, I regret you feel that way. I'll let other people speak for their own reasons, but if you're going to reject out of hand that "Marvel has treated every other prose novel as not canon" as a valid reason for doubt, then I'm not sure how much further we can go. 

Look. If you can get the current editor of Uncanny X-Men to say, unequivocally, that, "Yes, we treat the Star Trek/X-Men novel as canon," I...well, gosh, I think that's about the perfect evidence, as long as it's not impossible, chronologically speaking, for the story to be canon (and I don't think anyone here has claimed that). 

Barring that, you're just gonna have to keep plugging away. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I have tried arguing this on every level, The right characters appear in the right timeframe, and on every level appear to be the 616 X-Men and Thunderbolts. I can understand the purpose of being one hundred present sure about placement, but nobody has come up with any evidence contradicting how this could not be considered canon, other than pop culture references. 
<<<

You make a good case here, for the comic. Now having said that, please don't take that to mean: boom...it's decided; the comic is canon. Other people also make good points. 

The real problem here is tying it to the novel. I think you maintain that this is evidence that the novel is canon, while I tend to suspect it's evidence that the comic isn't. 


watching: megascience

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:06 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Okay, there we go -- that's the part I didn't know. I assumed that the Byron guy decided on his own that his novels weren't canon. You're saying, I take it, that although the information came from him, he was just relating what Marvel told him? 
<<<

Yeah, I imagine Keith would've been thrilled to have "his" stories adopted as canon by Marvel editorial. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Right, that's what I was asking you below -- the fact the the comic itself is of questionable canonicity, is the fact that it's attached to a novel a point in favor of it being *non*canon, in your eyes? Looks like "yes". 
<<<

It's a point of concern for me, yes. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
This comic, in and of itself, has questions about its canonicity, which have been better raised elsewhere in this thread, by people who have actually read the book 
<<<

The ONLY question is the Star Trek-as-alternate universe thing. Aside from that -- there's nothing to the X-Men's appearances or status quos that contradicts established continuity. 
<<<

Well, again, I haven't read the book, so I'll leave it up to others to respond. As in any good debate, if there's no response, you can consider your point won. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
let me take a moment to clear up a misunderstanding that some folks have about web comics ... The Board decided that web comics (presumably published by Marvel) were canon, on a case by case basis, the same as comics. 
<<<

"We" did? I did not know that. 
<<<

Don't confuse Board with board. Capital Board is the Board of Directors. I may be wrong, but I think that was a pre-Jeph Board. The decision was privately reached by the Directors. The announcement of the decision was public. I think the wording we used in the announcement was that canonicity of web comics would be decided on a case-by-case basis. But that was, what, three years ago? Don't hold me to that exact wording. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Gonna be pretty hard to check the rest of the webcomics for potential canonicity, isn't it? 
<<<

You bet. That was one of the reasons I was against it. But I don't want to go there. The decision's made. 


watching: dave the barbarian

Last edited by Administrator on Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:11 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
If we don't like the "novel factor", we could potentially rule the second one-shot non-canon -- but keep the first. 


I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be subject to the same rules as any other comic, so, yes, we could potentially rule that. 


watching: dave the barbarian

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Oh man. A pre-Jeph Board of Directors. I remember that now...  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:00 pm    
By Jason Doty

Quote: 
>>>
Barring that, you're just gonna have to keep plugging away.  
<<<

I doubt anyone at Marvel would currently rule on any issue of what is canon and what is not. Their attitude seems to be against any form of continuity. 

Now, I know that the general audience here is going to say, this next argument is great for the comic and not the novel, but I'm going to suggest the editors original intent. 

The disclaimers in the comic place the comic specifically before certain events in the 616. In my oppinion, showing that they intended the story to be clearly canon. 

At the end of the comic there is a 3 page article on making the comic and being true to the characters, that gained approaval through Marvel's X-Office at the time, and speciffically mention that their intent was to continue the comic in Pocket books novel Planet X. Would getting approval from the X-Offices editorial staff at the time, be considered proof enough of their original intent? or must that proof you require must come from the current editor? 

I feel that my case is being handicapped, in the fact that no one at Marvel will give anyone a straight answer regarding a chronological issue. This seems to be a non-issue with them.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:16 pm    
By DCW3

Quote: 
>>>
You make a good case here, for the comic. Now having said that, please don't take that to mean: boom...it's decided; the comic is canon. Other people also make good points. 

The real problem here is tying it to the novel. I think you maintain that this is evidence that the novel is canon, while I tend to suspect it's evidence that the comic isn't. 
<<< 


I don't see why declaring the comic canon automatically means that the novel in which it continues is canon as well. I could see this as being somewhat akin to the DAREDEVIL: THE MAN WITHOUT FEAR situation. MAN WITOUT FEAR is not canon, but events that occur in the series have been referred to elsewhere. It's my understanding that the assumption is that events similar to those in MAN WITHOUT FEAR have occurred somewhere in the mainstream Marvel universe--we just haven't seen them yet. 

If the novel is the sticking point, why couldn't the same assumption be made here? The TNG/X-Men story wrapped up somewhere...we just haven't seen it yet.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

DCW3 wrote: 
>>>
I don't see why declaring the comic canon automatically means that the novel in which it continues is canon as well. 
<<<

I don't, either. But others do, and if that's their stance, then I have a problem with the comic. 


watching: syracuse vs. conn

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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:48 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I doubt anyone at Marvel would currently rule on any issue of what is canon and what is not. Their attitude seems to be against any form of continuity. 
<<<

Yes, I understand your dilemma. I doubted you'd be able to get an answer, when I proposed the definitive solution. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
At the end of the comic there is a 3 page article on making the comic and being true to the characters, that gained approaval through Marvel's X-Office at the time, and speciffically mention that their intent was to continue the comic in Pocket books novel Planet X. Would getting approval from the X-Offices editorial staff at the time, be considered proof enough of their original intent? or must that proof you require must come from the current editor? 
<<<

My reason for specifying the current editor is so you wouldn't approach some former editor, who could just shrug, and say, "Sure, yeah, it's canon." He has no horse in the race, so what does he care? Talk to the editor who has to live with the consequences of the decision, for the definitive answer. 

Now that's not to say that's it's the only valid evidence that can be offered; only that it's the single evidence most likely to convince me otherwise. And your comments above offer some hope. Proof? No, but it is evidence, something to chew on. Once again, the "approval" line of thought carries no weight with me. The X-Men offices would want any novel that features their characters to remain true to the characters. They wouldn't want Wolverine sniffing daisies, or a bloodthirsty Beast, but that doesn't mean that any novel they "approve" is canon. But if there's an article in the comic, it may be possible to glean some editorial intent. I would say this line of thought is not a dead end. 


watching: syracuse vs. conn

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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:32 pm    
By BobMM

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And then there's this: 

If we don't like the "novel factor", we could potentially rule the second one-shot non-canon -- but keep the first. 
<<<

In Second Contact the X-Men specifically reference the TOS story, mentioning that they had earlier met Jim Kirk (in the original series crossover). To my mind, that demonstrates the intent of the author/editor to place the two stories in the same continuity -- so they're either both canon or both non. 

I know the Project doesn't consider that in any way binding, but it strikes me as another point worth considering. 

(And how convenient that Kirk's Enterprise traveled to a time prior to the chronological point to which Picard's Enterprise traveled. It could just have easily have happened the other way around.)

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That *was* convenient.  

But, you know, non-canon stories can reference canon stories. It's when the reverse happens that we have issues. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:44 pm    
By Jason Doty

This is a small point, but the X-Men travled to Kirk's time and universe, then TNG travled to the MU, then the X-Men travel to Picards time and universe.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:57 pm
By Enda80

Another reference to Doctor Who 

Punisher Armory#2 
"Micro Chip is constantly surprising me with the depth of his trivia. He had wanted an automated watchdog taht would thwart unwary burglars. Well, he made one and called it his "Dalek". We lived with that mechanical monster until some smart guy dropped a garbage truck on it. Bent it something fierce. It was then that I found out what a Dalek was. 

TV's longest-running science-fiction shows is Britain's Dr. Who. One of his greatest adversaries, so Micro tells me, were the Daleks. They were a society of robots, started by one madman, who were intent upon the extermination of all human life.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:33 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

You realize that this does absolutely nothing but prove that a TV show called <I>Dr. Who</I> existed in the Marvel Universe, right? That quote doesn't speak to a real Doctor existing in the MU, nor does it even confirm any of the actors who portrayed the Doctor in the show.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:41 am    
By jephyork
Director

He just likes to post. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:22 pm   
By Enda80

Sorry about that. I was trying to think of a specific example of Doctor Who being referenced as a fictional program on Earth-616, and could only think of this one. 

This does illustrate a situation similar to X-Men/Star Trek. 

(That said, unless he is recording for his war journal, Punisher Armory is of dubious canonicity.)

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Haven't we already established that there's a double-think going on in the Marvel Universe? That concepts like "Doctor Who" are *simultaneously* a TV show AND a real character in the MU? 

Doctor Who is a real character in the Marvel Multiverse. This is proven. A "Doctor Who" TV show exists in the Marvel Multiverse. This is also proven. 

Just pretend that the two are completely unrelated in any way, and move on. 

When Doctor Who appears as a real character -- that doesn't mean that every episode of the show is now MU canon. By the same token, when the "Doctor Who" show appears in a comic, that doesn't mean it's exactly the same as the real (our world's) show. 

They're different. They share what WE see as extreme similarities -- because both the "real character" and the "Marvel Universe TV show" are based on our world's TV show -- but the denizens of the Marvel Universe must be able to see differences that we can't. Because, in context, they're obviously different things. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:19 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Doctor Who is a real character in the Marvel Multiverse. This is proven. A "Doctor Who" TV show exists in the Marvel Multiverse. This is also proven. 

Just pretend that the two are completely unrelated in any way, and move on. 
<<<

Even if the Doctor Who TV show, radio programs, and so on are canonical for the Marvel version of Doctor Who, that doesn't mean that they're canonical for Earth-616; it's more likely than not that the Doctor comes from another timeline. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:42 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hell of a thread, my friends. Hell of a thread. 

Can anyone supply the exact quote from the recent Handbook where "Second Contact" was alluded to? Back on page 7, Russ wanted to know what the current crop of editors at Marvel thought about the canonicity of the Trek/X novel ... did the Handbook blurb mention it at all? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:14 pm    
By Jason Doty

The OHOTMU: Avengers 2005 under the Kang entry reads: 

Quote: 
>>>
"After a brief battle with the X-Men and an enterprising starship crew, Kang..."  
<<<

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That's it, huh? So a backhanded canonicity inclusion for "Second Contact", and nothing one way or the other for the novel. 

Here we go again, I can feel it. Three options: 

1) Now that "Second Contact" is canon, so is the novel, making it the sole exception to the "novels are non-canon" rule. See the article in the back of "Second Contact" for possible supporting evidence? 

2) Although "Second Contact" is now canon, the novel is not -- the story wrapped up in "broadly similar events" that were never shown in a canon source. 

3) "Second Contact" is NOT canon, and the Handbook is referring to "broadly similar events" that were never shown in a canon source. 

Personally, I feel that option #3 isn't all that believable -- clearly the Handbook writers were trying to make reference to the one-shot without getting sued -- but I thought I'd offer it up anyway. 

Have at it, folks. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:42 pm    
By Jason Doty

I'm for option #1 

Reasons: 
1. The story does not contradict established continuity. 
2. The comic is referenced in an official Marvel source. 
3. The comic directly points the reader to the novel. 
4. The novel is not part of the series of "out of continuity" novels. 
5. The novel does not contadict established continuity.

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I want to address some flaws in your logic. Understand, I'm not debating your conclusion at this point. I'm only trying to cut through the chaff to get to the meat of your argument. 

Your reasons number 1 and 5 are basically the same, bringing the number of reasons down to 4. 

Your reason number 2 doesn't support Jeph's option #1. Reason number 2 is attempting to prove the comic is canon, while Jeph's option #1 already presupposes this. Option #1 is speaking solely to the question of the novel. So now we're down to 3 reasons (#'s 3, 4, and 5). 

Reason #5 is not evidence for canon. As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, if the Elektra movie did not contradict established continuity, it still wouldn't be canon. What #5 does for you is provide you with ammunition to refute anyone who claims that the novel can't be canon, because it contradicts the comics. Fair enough, but I'm not sure anyone's made that claim. So I'm not sure how reason #5 helps your argument. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:54 pm    
By wolframbane

Proteus appeared in Star Trek - X-Men (Dec 1996). This would fall after his appearance in X-Factor Annual #6 (1991).

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:28 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
They were a society of robots 
<<<

Daleks are NOT robots. They are cyborgs. There is an organic little green blob of hate in the center of those Mk IV travel machines.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:33 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
They were a society of robots 
<<<

Daleks are NOT robots. They are cyborgs. There is an organic little green blob of hate in the center of those Mk IV travel machines. 
<<<


You know, in a thread with 8 pages so far, over a hundred messages, it's hard to know who you're quoting here, much less, the context. 

Regardless of that, let's stay on topic, people. 


watching: broncos v steelers

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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The Vision, by the way, is not a robot or a cyborg -- he's a synthezoid. 

Oh, right, ON topic.  

Has anyone yet checked the text article at the back of "Second Contact" to see if it gives any insight on whether or not the Marvel or Pocket Book editors consider the "Planet X" novel canon? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:09 pm    
By BobMM

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Has anyone yet checked the text article at the back of "Second Contact" to see if it gives any insight on whether or not the Marvel or Pocket Book editors consider the "Planet X" novel canon? 
<<<

Not much. Tim Tuohy is writing, and mostly discusses the editorial process. 

He writes "...I would go in and explain to Bob [Harras, editor-in-chief] what I had planned to do with the X-Men ... He then asked, 'Do you kill any X-Men?' I ... assured him that no X-Men came to harm. Bob was happy." 

Someone might care to infer something about canonicity from the fact that Second Contact was edited and written by the "best writers in [the Trek] editorial stable" -- People whose assignment at the time was Trek, not MU.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:24 pm    
By Jason Doty

BobMM wrote 
>>>
He then asked, 'Do you kill any X-Men?' I ... assured him that no X-Men came to harm. Bob was happy."  
<<<


Why would the Marvel editor show concern over whether any characters die if it was not intended as part of continuity?

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:33 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

And why would that be the only thing he was concerned about, if it was intended as part of continuity? 


watching: 24

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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:43 pm    
By Jason Doty

In any case it is obvious that the story went through Marvel's editorial and they had the say in approving this project. 

The comic refers us to after what events in the Marvel Universe (canon stories) this story takes place before, after which the comic refers us to a novel not published through who they usually publish their novels and then makes sure this novel is true to their characters by reviewing what has been created. 

The novel itself in no way contridicts established continuity and continues the story that was started in the comic. 

Once again this is a unique case and in my opinion would not adversly affect the project setting a precident for all novels. This is the only case I can think of where the comic refers us to another form of publication in continuing of a story and had the comic and Marvel not refered us (the reader) to it I would not be arguing for its inclusion so firmly.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:44 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The novel itself in no way contridicts established continuity and continues the story that was started in the comic. 
<<<


That point is a non-starter. We've been round and round a dozen times in this thread alone. 


watching: 24

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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
why would that be the only thing he was concerned about, if it was intended as part of continuity? 
<<<

In fairness, we don't know that it was the "only" thing he was concerned about. It was simply the only thing he was concerned about that made it into the article. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR


As I understood the quote, we're certainly led to believe that's all that came up. 


watching: live from

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Thread 81

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 11:34 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four Annual #21
By captamr

Medusa is also present in the second story of the annual: 


MEDUSA 

XF@2 
FF@21 
*FF@21/2 
Inhumans Graphic Novel
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 82

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject: Void Indigo: possible reason for canonicity
By scottsdrewhutchins

Although Steve Gerber's Epic title _Void Indigo_ is part of the creator-owned Epic line, it does make reference to Zhered-Na (a character Gerber created for Man-Thing and Tales of Atlantis, whom he referenced throughout much of his Marvel work). This series takes place in L.A. before the West Coast Avengers existed, so Jaghur would not be (and is not) surounded by superbeings, but the reference to Zhered-Na of Atlantis suggest that it could be Earth-616, but could certainly be a deviation from after Zhered-Na's time. 

Are titles like the Epic Silver Surfer considered canon?

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 08:10 am    
By Enda80

Parable took place in an alternate Earth, as established, of all places, in Cyberspace 3000. This Earth, as noted in the FF Encyclopedia and Alternate Earths Handbook, is know as Earth-7888. 


http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthmoeb01.htm 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/meltdown.htm 

4. Elektra: Assassin takes place on Earth-616 (at some point in the modern era roughly around the time of the events of Avengers I#61) since it was referenced for Nick Fury's entries in the Avengers index, and Garrett, seen first in this series, returned circa Daredevil I#319. However, a caveat has to do with the fact that much of the series is from Elektra and Garrett's point of view, and their peculiar mental conditions cause them to have exaggerated perceptions of events. In a Daredevil letters column, it was declared that the presidential candidate Ken Wind may or may not have existed, and in any event, Garrett's having his mind transferred into Ken Wind's body did not occur. 


5. Elektra Lives Again: Per the Master Edition entries for Bullseye and Elektra, happens in an alternate past, present, or future. Frank Miller himself once stated that it took place after Daredevil I#191 but before the Born Again storyline (the events of Elektra Lives Again contributing to Murdock's precarious mental condition in those issues). However, the return of Bullseye in the Streets of Poison storyline in Captain America, of Elektra in the Fall From Grace storyline, and a comment in the Daredevil letters page removes Elektra Lives Again from Earth-616 continuity. 


................... 

written by me

			*	*	*

Thread 83

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 11:46 am    Post subject: Baron Mordo
By Enda80

BARON MORDO/KARL MORDO 
DRSTR3 85-FB 
DRSTR3 6/2 
ST 115/2 
**DRSTR3 8/2 
{ST 111/2} 
ST 114/2 
ST 117/2 
ST 121/2-BTS 
ST 121/2-FB 
ST 121/2 
UTSM:SE 
JIM 108-BTS 
ST 125/2 
ST 130/2 
ST 131/2 
ST 132/2 
ST 133/2 
ST 134/2 
ST 135/2 

Doctor Strange#8/2 takes place just after he left the Ancient One's tutelage. Dracula also appears in this story. Since it was established that Stephen Strange started in sorcery in the 1960's absolutely (what about those stories where he meets people he knew from when he was a Doctor), the 8/2 story probably takes place in the 1960's absolutely.

			*	*	*

Thread 84

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 04:14 pm    Post subject: Omissions: Jennifer Kale and family
By scottandrewhutchins

Earlier, I noted that Jennifer Kale's appearances in The Legion of Night and Witches had not been included, and I was told the issues had not yet been cataloged. Looking closer at her chronology, I noticed some oimissions of issues that had been cataloged. 

AIF 16: On page 11, Jennifer, Andy, and Joshua Kale all stand and witness the protest. This story has been reprinted several times, but the orginal issue even has a note on how to color the characters' hair that seems to have been printed by mistake. 

AIF 17: On page 18, Jennifer is in bed, dreaming of/psychically seeing the Man-Thing and Wundarr's conflict taking place over the issue. When she awakes, she is comforted by Joshua and Andy. 

AIF 18: Page 26, Jennifer says goodbye to Jaxon outside the house, then is attacked by a waking dream. Joshua hears her scream and opens the door to come to her aid, and Jaxon rushes back to her. 

M-T 22-FB, page 7, Joshua, Jennifer, Andy, and Korrek (Warrior Prince of Katharta) bury Dakimh's body at the edge of the swamp and mark his grave with the sign of Zhered-Na. 

M-T2 4-BTS: Sheriff John Daltry searches for the missing Kales, assisted by Jennifer's former boyfriend, Jaxon, who first appeared in AIF 13. 

DRSTR2 41: Baron Mordo sets up a sacrifice of a circle of 12 men and women--two of the men being Joshua and Andy Kale, with Jennifer Kale and Man-Thing at the center. All are killed but the Kales, but when the demon is defeated, the unnamed others are restored to life. 

Kale, Andrew Jackson (full name given in M-T2 10) 
AIF 11 
AIF 13 
AIF 14 
AIF 15 
AIF 16 
AIF 17 
AIF 19 
M-T 22-FB 
M-T 2 4-BTS 
DRSTR2 41 
M-T2 10 
M-T2 11 

Kale, Joshua 
AIF 11-BTS 
AIF 13 
AIF 14 
AIF 15 
AIF 16 
AIF 17 
AIF 18 
AIF 19 
M-T 22-FB 
M-T 2 4-BTS 
DRSTR2 41 
M-T2 10 
M-T2 11 
[reported, but not shown, as deceased in Witches #1] 

Andy and Jennifer both appeared in all four issues of Witches. Andy was killed in the last issue.

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Thread 85

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:51 pm    Post subject: Is Morlocks Canon?
By gregorynbaker

I am struggling with a continuity issue and I was hoping you all could help me. Though I know that files issues are not generally good sources of continuity, several in the past have been important. Most memorable was "Stryfe's Strike File," which gave the first mentions of Threnody and Holocaust as well as quoted in Uncanny X-Men #300 when Illyana was diagnosed with the Legacy Virus. 

Anyway, X-Men: The 198 Files came out last week and gave us listings for 132 of the 198 mutants that still have their powers, written, supposedly by Val Cooper as the deputy director of O*N*E. Marvel seems to have gone to lengths to include a variety of mutants from various sources, including the Great Lakes Avengers, Runaways, and other stories that do not normally involve the X-Men. I was suprised, however, to see the inclusion of Litterbug in the files. Litterbug is from the 2002 Morlocks series written by Geoff Johns. The introductory blurb from Morlocks #1 reads, "Only ten percent of American born mutants live to see their twentieth birthday. Some are attacked by frightened neighborhood mobs, many murdered in confrontations with other mutants, but most have been executed by the U.S. government's homo-superior extermination androids: the Sentinels. Throughout America, desperate and fearful mutants have banded together in small groups, living under the streets of our largest cities where they remain hidden from sentinel detection. They do not want to be heroes or villains, they only hope to survive. More than just an urban legend, less than the horrific monsters America proclaims them to be." 

I bought the first issue and realized that this could not be taking place in the 616 universe. I later learned that Litterbug and Electric Eye, two characters from the series were from a X-Men: Millennial Visions one-shot. Now, when this came out, it was April of 2002. New X-Men was involved with the Cassandra Nova take over of the Shi'ar Empire in "Imperial" and Kitty Pryde would be beginning her adventures at the University of Chicago in X-Men Unlimited vol. 1 #36, which was released in May. 

Eric J. Moreels, one of the writers of X-Men: The 198 Files and publisher of the ComiX-Fan website, quotes Johns as saying, "It's set in the real Marvel Universe -- there are pockets of Sentinels still active when 'emergencies' like this pop up." Now, when Moreels published this quote in his ComiX-Fan character profile for Litterbug in 2002, Marc O. Frisch immediately wrote that such a statement could not possibly be true. 

In order for this to be the case, the U.S. government would have to have a huge, undercover, Sentinel program running in the United States. This would be at a time when a) the governments response to mutants was clearly profiled in X-Factor vol. 2, b) Cassandra Nova had established X-Corp offices around the world, so the X-Men were as tied into what was going on world wide as they had ever been, c) Mutants were gaining acceptance in the United States as a viable subculture, as chronicled in New X-Men vol. 1, X-Force/X-Statix, and other stories, and d) Kitty Pryde, a then former X-Man, was a student in Chicago and spent many nights, as depicted in X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001, learning about what was going on with mutants and mutant oppression in the US, especially in the Chicago area. As such I dismissed the series and did not buy issues #2-4. 

Now in X-Men: The 198 Files, the profile of Litterbug outlines the events of that Morlock series precisely and mentions that his knowledge of Sentinel technology could be a threat to O*N*E. 

My question to you is that if Marvel IS accepting that the Morlock series is canon, how can this be done given the facts listed above? It certainly would not be the first time Marvel has completely fouled up continuity, and it probably won't be the last. Any input would be appreciated.

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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:56 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, it's manifestly impossible, obviously. Be charitable and assume something broadly similar might have happened.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:57 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

There is a time gap between the Scott Lobdell run and Grant Morrison's run. During the early issues of Grant's run, Cyclops and Wolverine are fighting Sentinel's left over from something called "The Sentinel Purge." Possibly this could be a place that you could slot Morlocks, but I haven't read the series so I can't be sure how well that would work.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:36 am    
By jannepie

gregorynbaker wrote: 
>>>
In order for this to be the case, the U.S. government would have to have a huge, undercover, Sentinel program running in the United States. 
<<<

They have. It was seen in the recent Livewires limited series too. 

I haven't read either Morlocks but didn't it take place in Chicago or somewhere?

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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:21 am    
By Marc-Oliver Frisch

gregorynbaker wrote: 
>>>
Eric J. Moreels, one of the writers of X-Men: The 198 Files and publisher of the ComiX-Fan website, quotes Johns as saying, "It's set in the real Marvel Universe -- there are pockets of Sentinels still active when 'emergencies' like this pop up." Now, when Moreels published this quote in his ComiX-Fan character profile for Litterbug in 2002, Marc O. Frisch immediately wrote that such a statement could not possibly be true. 
<<<

And given that we both ended up working on THE 198 FILES, you can imagine that there was discussion between us about whether or not to include Litterbug, since my stance hadn't changed in the last three years. 

To make a long story short, it seems Marvel specifically wanted MORLOCKS to be in continuity when Eric wrote the X-Men ENCYCLOPEDIA a few years back, and now they don't mind sticking with that. 

As for the hows and whys in terms of a workable in-story explanation, I'm as wise as anybody else, mind you.
_________________
Marc-Oliver Frisch 
POPP'D! -- Comikado -- Supercritical 

Updated almost daily.

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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:38 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Marc-Oliver Frisch wrote: 
>>>
To make a long story short, it seems Marvel specifically wanted MORLOCKS to be in continuity when Eric wrote the X-Men ENCYCLOPEDIA a few years back, and now they don't mind sticking with that. 
<<<

And of course, Marvel has that right. But keep in mind that, for our purposes here at the Project, a story is canon, unless (a) Marvel says it isn't, or (b) it can't be. 

Note that the logic doesn't flow in reverse. Marvel doesn't determine that a story is canon. Marvel can be overruled on this issue, for our purposes, if it can't be canon. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:42 pm    
By Marc-Oliver Frisch

Oh, sure. My comment wasn't meant to end the discussion, but to contribute to it.
_________________
Marc-Oliver Frisch 
POPP'D! -- Comikado -- Supercritical 

Updated almost daily.

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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Oh, and it was taken that way. I very much appreciate your insight. We don't get enough of that here. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:02 pm    
ADMINISTRATOR

Okay, so Gregory Baker makes a case that "Morlocks" couldn't have occured in the Marvel Universe at the time it was published -- concurrently with comics published in early 2002. 

Paul O'Brien calls the series' canonicity "manifestly impossible, obviously". 

Marvel Comics has informed us that they consider "Morlocks" canon. 

Well, okay. I'll give it a go. 

Janniepie claims that "Livewires" establishes that the Marvel Universe *does* have a massive underground Sentinel program, so there's that aspect of "Morlocks" taken care of. 

As for the introductory blurb in #1, claiming that about 50% of America's mutants are murdered by Sentinels ... well, that's a bit harder to swallow -- but it's just an introductory blurb! Personally, I'd be inclined to dismiss it as purple prose, or rationalize it off as an urban legend -- what the Chicago Morlock community BELIEVES is true, but not the full truth. 

As for Gregory Baker's assertation that it couldn't have occured in the days of X-Corp outreach and Kitty living in Chicago ... well, fine. But where's the evidence that it DOES occur then? Perhaps it occured a few years back. Maybe during "Zero Tolerance" -- maybe the new, humanoid Prime Sentinels were unleashed on the X-Men, and the older clunky models were sent to major cities like Chicago to round up outstanding mutant troublemakers there. 

All Marvel has told us is "it occured". And although it does seem to be an odd fit -- mainly because of the intro blurb, not because of any story content -- I don't see anything in here that absolutely contradicts what we know of the Marvel Universe. 
It's a bit of a stretch to fit it in, it involves a rationalization of the intro blurb -- but I don't think any of the content is so objectionable that its canonicity needs to be called "manifestly impossible, obviously". 

Since no outside characters appear in it, and since for MCP purposes it doesn't *matter* precisely *when* it occured -- I say just bow to Marvel's intent, analyze the thing, toss the resulting character chronologies into the MCP and move on. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:02 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Janniepie claims that "Livewires" establishes that the Marvel Universe *does* have a massive underground Sentinel program, so there's that aspect of "Morlocks" taken care of. 
<<<

Actually, no. The LWs covertly reprogram a prototype Sentinel from a "quasi-governmental" project to go bonkers (in an amusing manner), ripping itself to bits, which was itself forced to run on an external power source after the group smashed up it's power source before it could be delivered the previous issue - to stop the program before it gets started (this is explicitly stated).

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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:35 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I've read MORLOCKS, and I can't see how it can possibly be canon - the central premise of the series is that mutants have been driven underground because they get killed by Sentinels if they stay above ground for more than a few minutes! 

However, from the MCP's point of view, it's academic because the series features no other Marvel characters, and the MORLOCKS characters themselves are so trivial as not to merit an entry.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:15 pm    
By jephyork
Director

All over the world? For how long prior to the series had that been the status quo? 

If the premise can be read as "THOSE mutants have been driven underground because IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS they get killed by Sentinels if they stay above ground for more than a few minutes", I'd say we have a shot. 

Quote: 
>>>
from the MCP's point of view, it's academic 
<<<

True, IF we consider their appearances "so trivial as not to merit an entry" -- which I personally wouldn't agree with -- and so long as the characters never again appear anywhere else... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:14 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul O'Brien wrote 
>>>
However, from the MCP's point of view, it's academic because the series features no other Marvel characters, and the MORLOCKS characters themselves are so trivial as not to merit an entry. 
<<<

There are characters with one entry in the MCP, if the book is decided to be canon all entries should be included. The characters that appear are not background characters and specific to the plot, they are not trivial in that sense.

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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
There are characters with one entry in the MCP, if the book is decided to be canon all entries should be included. 
<<<

Well, unless you're speaking of characters with codenames, no; as we say in the FAQ, that's just a judgement call, on our part. 


watching: cold case

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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:33 am    
By jannepie

Quote: 
>>>
The LWs covertly reprogram a prototype Sentinel from a "quasi-governmental" project to go bonkers (in an amusing manner), ripping itself to bits, which was itself forced to run on an external power source after the group smashed up it's power source before it could be delivered the previous issue - to stop the program before it gets started (this is explicitly stated). 
<<<

Okay, I obviously remembered that wrong. 

Has it been revealed who developed Wild Sentinels and when?

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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:28 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
All over the world? For how long prior to the series had that been the status quo? 

If the premise can be read as "THOSE mutants have been driven underground because IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS they get killed by Sentinels if they stay above ground for more than a few minutes", I'd say we have a shot. 
<<<

As I remember, this had been the status quo for some time. Certainly months and the implication may have been for years.

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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:22 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I know I'm reaching here, but I'm trying to reconcile the book's plot with Marvel's claim that it's canon. So: 

What's actually stated? What's implied, and how? And WHO actually states the things that are stated -- how reliable are they? 

Maybe I ought to go get it and read it, instead of continuing to ask pickier and pickier questions until I hear answers I like...  

And: 
Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
There are characters with one entry in the MCP, if the book is decided to be canon all entries should be included. 
<<<

Well, unless you're speaking of characters with codenames, no 
<<<

Although Jason is generalizing by saying "all entries", I believe he IS speaking only of characters with codenames in this instance. "Litterbug", for example. Which means he'd be right -- if the book is decided to be canon, the codenamed characters should get entries, no matter how "minor" they are. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:28 pm    
By JD

Okay, I've briefly flipped through the thing, focusing mainly on what the officials say. I'll look into it more thoroughly during the next few days. 

First, the good news : it is stated at various times that the Sentinels are suffering from wear and tear because of the intense rounds they are making. I read into it that they couldn't have been into operation for very long. 

On the other hand... 
The Sentinel program is public and (at least partly) US-funded. Cops are cooperating (and even competing) with the Sentinels. The only time this has ever happened was during OZT (which was multinational, but close enough), but the OZT Sentinels were completely different from the classic design shown here (and it cannot be dismissed as an art error, since the size of the things is crucial to the plot). 

I don't see it ever happening again after OZT (as authorities saw it backfire horribly). And if there had been such a program in activity before OZT, surely we would have known about it ? And the X-Men would have done something about it, wouldn't they ? 

Note that the widespread use, even among officials, of the term "Morlocks" as a shorthand for "mutants living underground in communities" suggests that the New York Morlocks were public knowledge by then (which would put it post-MM at least).

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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

I had suggested previously that, if this were to take place during OZT, maybe the new, expensive Prime Sentinels were only deployed to take care of the X-Men -- and the big, old models were deployed in other cities, to take out less important threats. Could that work? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:27 am    
By Col_Fury

I see three possibilities: 

1. 
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If this were to take place during OZT, maybe the new, expensive Prime Sentinels were only deployed to take care of the X-Men -- and the big, old models were deployed in other cities, to take out less important threats. 
<<<

This could work, because the X-Men are tied up with the Prime Sentinels. But the local cops are working with the Sentinel program, and in competition with it, so it's been around for a while... 

2. 
Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 
>>>
There is a time gap between the Scott Lobdell run and Grant Morrison's run. During the early issues of Grant's run, Cyclops and Wolverine are fighting Sentinel's left over from something called "The Sentinel Purge." 
<<<

I kind of like the "Sentinel Purge" explanation. It's closer to publication dates(New X-Men=Summer 2001, Morlocks=Summer 2002), and hell, the X-Men are purging Sentinels! But just how long has it been going on,(see above) and would the X-Men have let it go unnoticed for any amount of time? 

3. 
This could take place while the X-Men were in Australia, or even after they went through the Seige Perilous, but before they reformed during the Extinction Agenda. 

This could explain why X-Men weren't doing anything about Sentinels on nightly patrols in Chicago and Detroit.(because they weren't in the country, and possibly not aware of the situation) Also, this would still take place after the Mutant Massacre storyline, where the public became aware of Morlocks in New York. However, this would put a comic published in 2002 back in the mid-to-late eighties. Also, what about X-Factor at the time? And Excalibur? New Mutants? Wouldn't they have done something? 

And it should be noted that issue 4 of Morlocks ends with the mutants destroying the Sentinel base, hinting that the midwest squadron of Sentinels are out of business. It seemed that all Sentinels patrolling Chicago and Detroit were deployed from Chicago, so the destruction of that facility could have ended the whole mess. Also, it's never stated if any other cities had Sentinel patrols, so the program could have started in Chicago and not gotten any further. 

I'm only half volunteering here, but do we need an analysis of Morlocks?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:01 am    
By jephyork
Director

Nobody actually says the phrase "The Sentinel Purge". The quote is: 

"They looked like decommissioned government ordnance. Rogue machines left over from the big mutant witchhunts a few months back." 

I took that to be a reference to OZT, although the "few months" line is a stretch. However, viewed either way it lends support... 

Either it IS a reference to OZT and it's confirmation that the big old Sentinels were used then, or it's a reference to an unseen story occuring "a few months" ago, wherein "big mutant witchhunts" occured and Sentinels were deployed. 

Either way, it looks like this could be what was happening in "Morlocks". And since, for MCP purposes, we don't need to determine WHEN it happened -- we just need to determine that it COULD HAVE HAPPENED -- we don't need to decide which of the above options it is. 

So: could "Morlocks" have happened in either of these windows? 

At this point I'm not going to make definitive canonicity statements until I've actually read the book  , but things are looking good... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:09 am    
By Col_Fury

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Either it IS a reference to OZT and it's confirmation that the big old Sentinels were used then, or it's a reference to an unseen story occuring "a few months" ago, wherein "big mutant witchhunts" occured and Sentinels were deployed. 

Either way, it looks like this could be what was happening in "Morlocks". And since, for MCP purposes, we don't need to determine WHEN it happened -- we just need to determine that it COULD HAVE HAPPENED -- we don't need to decide which of the above options it is. 
<<<

All good points. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So: could "Morlocks" have happened in either of these windows? 
<<<

It's looking like it could. 

I might as well do an analysis of this series. Give me a few days. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:18 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Nobody actually says the phrase "The Sentinel Purge". The quote is: 

"They looked like decommissioned government ordnance. Rogue machines left over from the big mutant witchhunts a few months back." 

I took that to be a reference to OZT, although the "few months" line is a stretch. However, viewed either way it lends support... 

Either it IS a reference to OZT and it's confirmation that the big old Sentinels were used then, or it's a reference to an unseen story occuring "a few months" ago, wherein "big mutant witchhunts" occured and Sentinels were deployed. 
<<<

OK, that's the line I was thinking of - I don't know WHERE the Sentinel Purge stuff came from! 

- Nathan P. Mahney -
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:25 am    
By Somebody

Ummm... wasn't the point of O:ZT that the Prime Sentinels were sleepers and dispersed all over the US if not the world? 

If you're going to bung it in-canon after all, intro-line be dammed, between XM 113 and NXM 114 sounds best, as a reaction to Magneto's Eve of Destruction.

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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:12 am    
By Dhall

I've read the book, I don't see why it couldn't be canon. 

Dave

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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:17 pm    
By jannepie

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Ummm... wasn't the point of O:ZT that the Prime Sentinels were sleepers and dispersed all over the US if not the world? 

If you're going to bung it in-canon after all, intro-line be dammed, between XM 113 and NXM 114 sounds best, as a reaction to Magneto's Eve of Destruction. 
<<<

What happened to the Sentinels involved in the Kang War? Does the war take place between XM 113 and NXM 114?

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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:03 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Does the war take place between XM 113 and NXM 114? 
<<<

Yes, Kang War is between X 113 and 114.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 86

While going through the key, I've noticed that Captain Marvel v2 1 is listed in addition to the Captain Marvel Special, even though they are they same comic. Here are the appearances for each: 

CMS 1 
CAPTAIN MARVEL II/MONICA RAMBEAU See Photon 
IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. 'JIM' 'RHODEY' RHODES 
MOONSTONE II/KARLA SOFEN 
MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
RAMBEAU, FRANK 
RAMBEAU, MARIA 

CM2 1 
POWDERKEG II 

Powderkeg II appears in CMS 1 along with the other characters listed, but he's the only one listed under CM2 1. I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to switch his listing from CM2 1 to CMS 1, and delete CM2 from the key.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 87

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: The Avengers and the Watchtower
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I thought for a moment that we might be able to organize events chronologically based on the Avengers going public and Stark Tower's appearance as the Watchtower. Now let's see... 

At the end of A4 14, Stark Tower suddenly manifests itself as the Sentry's Watchtower and this forces the Avengers to go public in A4 15. Yeah, uh uh... 

Let's see...the New Avengers already became public knowledge when the papers outed them in A4 7. And...um...Stark Tower already manifested itself as the Watchtower in A4 10. Yeah..... 

Considering these plot repetitions, how reliable would these references be as clues to the placement of other stories? Let's test that... 

Jessica Jones is pregnant in A4 15, then has her baby in PULSE 13, then appears, not looking pregnant, in "The Other" story arc. Well, that might seem like a logical sequence, but the whole Watchtower thing throws that out of kilter. Stark Tower does not have the Watchtower spires in "The Other," but it should if that story arc indeed occurs after A4 15. 

How about another one? Stark Tower does not have the Watchtower spires in TB2 17, so I suppose that would place TB2 17 before A4 7-10. Internal references in TB2 place TB2 17 a good seven weeks after HOM. But wait a sec -- we theorized that NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X 14-15 and NEW X-MEN: HELLIONS tied into the A4 7-10 story arc (with the X-Men and Avengers getting together). But those X-issues must occur before HOM because of the status of various mutants' powers. 

Just more circular chronologies in an era in which such things seem to be the norm at Marvel. (And I didn't even mention Colonel F---.) 

(Snaps out of it.) 

Gosh, was I thinking of organizing things chronologically based on a Bendis plot?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Jan 2006 10:45 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Let's see...the New Avengers already became public knowledge when the papers outed them in A4 7.  
<<<

I thought that newspaper headline could be written off as speculation by the media, (and the New Avengers were only truly forced to come out and admit they were the New Avengers after the public noticed the Watchtower). Speaking of which... 


Quote: 
>>>
And...um...Stark Tower already manifested itself as the Watchtower in A4 10. Yeah..... 
<<<

Yes, that's a bit more alarming...I would think that it simply means that A4 11-15 occur immediately after A410, (but I don't know how well that works out)...maybe that scene with Kat Farrell at the Bugle in A4 14 occurs immediately following A4 10, and while the New Avengers were off in Japan, that's when the media speculation was taking off... 

The other alternative is that Sentry's wierdo powers made the Watchtower fluctuate in and out of existence for a while, before finally sticking around long enough for people to notice in issue #14. 

It's either that, or it's all Wanda's fault. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 26 Jan 2006 11:17 pm    
By Col_Fury

Is it possible that the spires are only present when the Sentry is home? And when he leaves they go away? That's the only thing I can think of to explain why they're not there in almost every other book, but they are over in New Avengers.(well, besides Bendis not talking to his editor, and the editors not talking to each other. That also explains the Fury mess, but it doesn't help us any) 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
The other alternative is that Sentry's wierdo powers made the Watchtower fluctuate in and out of existence for a while, before finally sticking around long enough for people to notice in issue #14.  
<<<

I like that option too.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 08:10 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I thought that newspaper headline could be written off as speculation by the media, (and the New Avengers were only truly forced to come out and admit they were the New Avengers after the public noticed the Watchtower).  
<<<

Well, I might point out that in New Avengers #15, Spider-Woman notes that she almost killed Captain America that morning which would imply that #11-15 all occur within a 24 hour period.

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Posted: 27 Jan 2006 10:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Is it possible that the spires are only present when the Sentry is home? And when he leaves they go away? That's the only thing I can think of to explain why they're not there in almost every other book, but they are over in New Avengers. 
<<<

Actually, the Watchtower spires have appeared in books other than NEW AVENGERS -- MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #15, FANTASTIC FOUR SPECIAL #1, and, of course, SENTRY. Sentry is present in all those except FFS 1, where he might be BTS. What does Stark Tower look like in NEW AVENGERS GUEST STARRING THE FANTASTIC FOUR? 


Quote: 
>>>
I would think that it simply means that A4 11-15 occur immediately after A410, (but I don't know how well that works out)... 
<<<

But as I noted, if we place A4 11-15 immediately after A4 7-10, then we must disassociate the urgent request of the Avengers for the X-Men to meet them (and miss the Prizegiving in ACADEMY X and HELLIONS) from the Sentry situation in which we see X-Men and Avengers together in the A4 7-10 arc. Not necessarily a problem, but we've already eliminated House of M as the likely reason for the X-Men/Avengers meeting, so we're left with an unexplained urgent meeting. 


The other thing we face is the inevitable inability of Marvel writers and editors to get those pesky temporal references to line up. If the appearance of the Watchtower spires post-dates TB2 17, in which they are not seen on Stark Tower, and TB2 17 does indeed occur a good seven weeks after HOM (including "six weeks" between TB2 12 and 13, and "days" between HOM 8 and TB2 12), then A4 11-15 is a couple of months after HOM. Yet in A4 11, Steve Rogers refers to the Raft breakout as "last month," and there ain't no way the Raft breakout occurs after HOM. 


Quote: 
>>>
Well, I might point out that in New Avengers #15, Spider-Woman notes that she almost killed Captain America that morning which would imply that #11-15 all occur within a 24 hour period. 
<<<

Probably more on the order of a three-day period, since you have to include the flashbacks in A4 11: 

Day One: 
NEW AVENGERS #11  FB (3-4) 
One day. Steve Rogers meets with Matt Murdock in Central Park and tries to enlist Daredevils aid in going after Silver Samurai, who escaped during the Raft breakout in A4 1-2 last month and may be involved with the Hand in Japan. Logan is not available for the job and the Avengers dont know when he will be. Green grass and jacket weather in New York. 
NEW AVENGERS #11  FB (7-8) 
The same day as A4 11-FB (3-4). Matt refuses to join the Avengers because hes been outed and six federal task forces are trying to put him in jail. He doesnt want to the team to be guilty by association. Green grass and jacket weather in New York. 
NEW AVENGERS #11  FB (12) 
The same day as A4 11-FB (7-8). Matt suggests that Cap enlist a certain someone with the same training, fighting styles, and knowledge of the Hand and clan Yashida he has. 
NEW AVENGERS #11  FB (15) 
The same day as A4 11-FB (12). Steve meets with the person Matt suggested and lays out the reconnaissance assignment. 

Day Two: 
NEW AVENGERS #11 (1-2, 5-6, 9-11p3) 
The night (in Japan) of the day after A4 11-FB (15). Ronin inflitrates the Yashida fortess in Osaka, where we see green grass. 
NEW AVENGERS #12  FB (1-2p2) 
The same night as A4 11 (1-11). At the Yashida fortress, Kenuichio Harada meets with Kuroda of the Hand. Green trees in Japan. 
NEW AVENGERS #11 (11p4-11p5) 
The same night as A4 12-FB (1-2). Kuroda presents Harada with his Silver Samurai armor. 
NEW AVENGERS #12  FB (2p3-2p4) 
The same night as A4 11 (11p4-11p5). Kuroda tells Harada that the Hand has been searching the world for him and hadnt known he was in SHIELD custody. Kuroda asks Harada to head the Clan Yashida. 
NEW AVENGERS #11 (13p1-13p4) 
The same night as A4 12-FB (2p3-2p4). Ronin spies on Harada receiving his armor and sword. Green trees in Japan. 
NEW AVENGERS #12  FB (2p5-2p6) 
The same night as A4 11 (13p1-13p4). Harada says he doesnt understand and a response comes from Viper, who fell off the grid two months ago, after XCAL3 13 (1-18). 
NEW AVENGERS #11 (13p5-14p2) 
The same night as A4 12-FB (2p5-2p6). Viper walks onto the scene as Ronin looks on. 
NEW AVENGERS #12  FB (3p1) 
The same night as A4 11 (13-14). Viper tells Harada that SHIELD has fallen apart and grown rotten without Fury there. 
NEW AVENGERS #11 (14p3) 
The same night as A4 12-FB (3p1). Viper continues to approach Harada. 
NEW AVENGERS #12  FB (3p2-4p1) 
The same night as A4 11 (14p3). Viper tells Harada that Hydra is aimless and she kisses him. 
NEW AVENGERS #11 (14p4-14p5) 
The same night as A4 12-FB (3-4). Ronin spies on the kiss as Hand ninjas sneak up behind her. 
NEW AVENGERS #12  FB (4p2-4p6) 
The same night as A4 11 (14p4-14p5). Suspicious of her intentions, Harada pushes himself away from Viper. A Hand ninja reports an intruder. 
NEW AVENGERS #11 (16-22) 
The same night as A4 12-FB (4p2-4p6). Ronin fights the Hand ninjas as she tries to retreat. Ronin makes her way back to Stark offices in Osaka, where the Avengers await. Ronin apologizes to the team and falls in a hail of ninja stars. Green trees in Japan. Full moon. 
NEW AVENGERS #12 (5-22) 
The same night as A4 11 (16-22). The Avengers battle the Hand. Viper proposes to have Harada control the Japanese underworld to build a power base for the Hand to fight SHIELD and Hydra. When a ninja reports that a bunch of Hand operatives pursued the intruder and are engaging his hero allies, Viper gets furious. The Hand ninjas are recalled and Spider-Woman slips away to meet with Viper. They discuss the deal they made that gave Jessica her powers back. When the Avengers arrive on the scene, Viper has Spider-Woman blast her to maintain appearances. Then the Silver Samurai arrives. Green trees in Japan. 
NEW AVENGERS #13 (1-21) 
The same night as A4 12 (5-22). This segment must occur before ROGUE3 7. Iron Man wipes out the Hand with a concussion blast and the Avengers try to straighten things out with Harada, who claims to have been kidnaped by SHIELD a month ago and thrown in the Raft before being picked up by the Hand, with whom he has no intention of doing business. Harada plans to raise a stink about being abducted and held prisoner in America. The Avengers leave in their quinjet with a captive Viper. While airborne, Spider-Woman secretly releases the emergency hatch and allows Viper to escape. This action sucks Cap out of the quinjet and Jessica dives after him; theyre both saved by Iron Man. The team returns to the Watchtower, where Ronin reveals herself to be Echo. The Avengers vow to follow up on the SHIELD corruption. Green trees in Japan. 

Day Three: 
NEW AVENGERS #13 (22) 
The morning after A4 13 (1-21). At breakfast, Cap asks Jessica Drew who shes working for. 
NEW AVENGERS #14 
The same day as A4 13 (22). Cap grills Jessica and she tells her story of being a double agent. The conversation is heard bot only by their fellow Avengers (including Logan and Sentry), but by Nick Fury, who says they have some work to do. While they talk, the top Stark Tower/Watchtower glows, as Bugle staffers Jameson, Robertson, Farrell, and a pregnant Jessica Jones notice. As the media reports on the energy flux, Tony calls for a press conference to be held at four oclock. 
NEW AVENGERS #15 
The same day as A4 14. (Still have to fill this in.)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 02:02 am
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
What does Stark Tower look like in NEW AVENGERS GUEST STARRING THE FANTASTIC FOUR? 
<<<

Plain old Stark Tower. No spires. And yes, the Sentry's home. 

You know what? Just pretend that the spires can, for whatever reason, be turned on and off -- and just make sure that A4 #10 is the earliest time we see them. It seems simplest... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 05:46 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
But as I noted, if we place A4 11-15 immediately after A4 7-10, then we must disassociate the urgent request of the Avengers for the X-Men to meet them (and miss the Prizegiving in ACADEMY X and HELLIONS) from the Sentry situation in which we see X-Men and Avengers together in the A4 7-10 arc.  
<<<

It's simpler than that. 

The Sentry joins the Avengers in NEW AVENGERS #10. He's a member of the Avengers in HOUSE OF M #1. NEW AVENGERS #15 is explicitly post-HOUSE OF M, and takes place on the same day as NEW AVENGERS #11-14. Therefore HOUSE OF M falls between NEW AVENGERS #10 and #11, and there's a lengthy gap between those issues. (Something which is entirely plausible on a natural reading of them anyway.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

Last edited by Paul O'Brien on 28 Jan 2006 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 08:22 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That's the direction I was heading -- ignoring that "last month" comment by Cap in A4 11. And we'll have to accept that the spires appeared very briefly in A4 10, then shut off and reappeared for the first time (for some odd reason -- great story telling, there) in A4 14. 


Quote: 
>>>
Plain old Stark Tower. No spires. And yes, the Sentry's home. 
<<<


So are we to place NEW AVENGERS GUEST STARRING THE FANTASTIC FOUR before A4 11 or after A4 15? In the A4 13, Cap says that he feels the Sentry is "not ready" to fight with the team yet, then all of a sudden in A4 15, Cap's willing to announce to the world he's a member of the team. (Again, great story telling.) Should any stories that show the Sentry fighting alongside the Avengers be placed after A4 15? If so, then NAGSFF would go after A4 15 and that means those pesky spires just turn on and off -- Lord knows why. 

In conclusion, the presence of spires should indicate that a story in another title occurs after A4 15 and the absence of spires is not a clue to placement at all. How's that sound?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 10:49 am   
By Jason Doty
 
Isn't New Avengers guest staring the Fantastic Four the second giveaway from AAFES? I thought the fact it had Thor in it knocked it out of contention as being possibly canon.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 01:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Isn't New Avengers guest staring the Fantastic Four the second giveaway from AAFES? I thought the fact it had Thor in it knocked it out of contention as being possibly canon. 
<<<

If I'm not mistaken, Thor was on the cover but not in the story. Is that right?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 02:03 pm    
By JD

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Isn't New Avengers guest staring the Fantastic Four the second giveaway from AAFES? I thought the fact it had Thor in it knocked it out of contention as being possibly canon. 
<<<

Actually, the two of them are called "New Avengers guest staring the Fantastic Four" on the cover. 
The first one, "Special Guests", written by Bendis, has the Stark Tower without spires. 
The second one, "Pot of Gold", written by Jenkins, has Thor.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 09:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Actually, the two of them are called "New Avengers guest staring the Fantastic Four" on the cover. 
The first one, "Special Guests", written by Bendis, has the Stark Tower without spires. 
The second one, "Pot of Gold", written by Jenkins, has Thor. 
<<<

So there are two stories in the one comic, or two comics? And one features Thor without the New Avengers and the other one has the New Avengers without Thor? I'm confused. 

Jeph provided an analysis of a military giveaway called "New Avengers guest staring the Fantastic Four" that didn't include Thor. Gleaned from his work, we have this entry: 

NEW AVENGERS GUEST STARRING THE FANTASTIC FOUR 
One day. This story must occur after A4 15, since Sentry is an active member of the Avengers. It is unlikely the FF appear here in the midst of FOES. The New Avengers and the Fantastic Four recover a Kree ship discovered in Louisiana by the US military. Its been there for thousands of years, and they bring it back to Avengers Tower (which has no Watchtower spires). When they crack it open, Kree soldiers are revived from suspended animation and attack them. The Kree think that the heroes are Skrulls, until Iron Man uses a translation program to explain that the Kree-Skrull War ended while they were in suspended animation. The Kree leave, threatening to one day add Earth to the Kree empire. SHIELD is referenced, but there is no indication was given of whos in charge. Wolvies costume here has the gold diamonds on the legs, as in W3 20-27, GAM4 5-6, and SENTRY2 1 (1-13). 


So what's the other comic or story?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 01:35 am    
By Jason Doty

There are two giveaways, both given out by AAFES. The first could be canon, but due to Thor being in the second one that one is not canon. The stories are not conected and are independent.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 09:16 pm    
By Antonio Gavio

Quote: 
>>>
This story must occur after A4 15, since Sentry is an active member of the Avengers 
<<<

Not necessarily. The Sentry was already a member of the Avengers as of NA 10 wheather the public knew it or not. The Avengers don't exactly embark on a mission in this story where they would be concerned about people noticing they have reformed. Just Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic are present at the Louisiana site where the Kree ship is found. To analize the ship, Iron Man seals the top of the Stark Tower with a glass dome, the Fantastic Four and the Avengers are present. They need the Sentry's muscle to crack the ship's door open and that's the only reason he stays, otherwise he would have left for "a thing with my wife in 45 minutes". 
I'd say this story fits nicely during the time that for whatever reason the Watchtower spires are not seen, just prior to House of M 1 (where they are not seen either).

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 11:07 pm    
By John Simons

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
There are two giveaways, both given out by AAFES. The first could be canon, but due to Thor being in the second one that one is not canon. The stories are not conected and are independent. 
<<<

Unless of course the Thor in the giveaway is... another LMD! 

Good lord, they're everywhere!!!

			*	*	*

Thread 88

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 11:53 pm    Post subject: Key question
By scottandrewhutchins

I was wondering if some of the volumes could have greater descriptions on them, since sometimes Marvel isn't terribly accurate about their volume numbers, and appears to have abandoned them altogether. For example, I have been using the chronology to collect appearances of the High Evolutionary. He appears in a sequence of Ka-Zar vol. 4 issues starting with #12. I picked this up today (the High Evolutionary on the cover making clear it was the correct issue). According to the indicia, however, it's volume 2. I had this question a couple of years ago about Strange Tales, for example. When one-shots and specials are being counted as volumes, this can be confusing if the key doesn't state so. 

I am planning to do an issue analysis for the first 2 issues of Blaze soon. Blaze was preceded by a Blaze miniseries, Blaze: Blood and Metal. These aren't in the key, so I would suggest they be something like BZBM and BZ rather than BZ1 and BZ2.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 12:09 am    
By Col_Fury

scottandrewhutchins wrote: 
>>>
I am planning to do an issue analysis for the first 2 issues of Blaze soon. Blaze was preceded by a Blaze miniseries, Blaze: Blood and Metal. These aren't in the key, so I would suggest they be something like BZBM and BZ rather than BZ1 and BZ2. 
<<<

Do you mean Blaze: Legacy of Blood? Or is there another one? When was Blaze: Blood and Metal published? 

In any case, I suggested the abbreviation BLAZE for the mini, and BLAZE2 for the ongoing in my recent analyses over in the analysis forum under Blaze v1 1-4, Blaze v2 1-6, and Blaze v2 7-12. But don't let that stop you, I would like to see your analysis and see if we came to the same conclusions. 

Of course, that doesn't answer you question about key abbreviations...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 12:26 am    
By scottandrewhutchins

I don't have the mini-series at all, so I could be misremembering the title. It's the one with the logo in the upper-left corner. I think I'm confusing it with the Cable miniseries that preceded the ongoing series. I have the first two issues because of Man-Thing (one Man-thing site said he was in the first issue as well, but I didn't see him on glancing through, and Man-thing isn't on the first or second page of #2 (as opposed to say, Nightcrawler 3:10).

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 12:31 am    
By Col_Fury

scottandrewhutchins wrote: 
>>>
It's the one with the logo in the upper-left corner. 
<<<

In that case, it would be Blaze: Legacy of Blood, & Cable: Blood and Metal. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 12:12 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

If someone wanted to go through the key and detail dates of publication for multi-volume series, as a way to clear up confusion, I'd be glad to add those to the Key. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 28 Jan 2006 03:56 pm    
By jimmyppi

That information can be found here: 

http://www.chronologygraph.com/published_all.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 08:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, but that's not really what I'm looking for. To use that list, you'd already have to know some of the information that the list supposedly provides. For instance, you'd have to know that Cable vol. 1 is Cable: Blood & Metal. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 29 Jan 2006 12:47 am    
By Col_Fury

Do you mean add a column, like this: 

CODE......TITLE..........................YEAR 

DRSTR.....DR. STRANGE..............1968-1969 
DRSTR2...DR. STRANGE VOL. 2...1974-1987 
DRSTR3...DR. STRANGE VOL. 3...1988-1996 
DRSTR4...DR. STRANGE VOL. 4...1999 

And possibly in the case of a miniseries, include the full title: 

CODE......TITLE...............................YEAR 

C.............CABLE: BLOOD & METAL...1992 
C2...........CABLE VOL. 2...................1993-2002 

And just post the information into this topic?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 02:47 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Do you mean add a column, like this: 
<<<

Yes. Although I only see a need for it on multi-volume titles. 


Quote: 
>>>
And possibly in the case of a miniseries, include the full title: 
<<<

No, no plans for that. It would just be listed as CABLE, and anyone who was confused could use the publication dates to clarify. 


Quote: 
>>>
And just post the information into this topic? 
<<<

They could, yes. 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 02:52 am    
By Col_Fury

Sounds great. I should be able to get started in the next day or two.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 03:48 am    
By Col_Fury

For the most part, I tried to stay away from characters with recurring miniseries that had proper titles. In some cases, I included them anyway because it was easier for me to keep track of which series was which. 

Some, I just couldn't find anything on, like Marvel Super-Heroes vol. 2(British Magazine) and Strange Tales vol. 5.(in the case of ST5, I think it's a duplicate of ST: DC. I think) 

Also, there were some series that had new volumes, so I included those as well. 

A....................AVENGERS ...............................1963-1996 
A2..................AVENGERS VOL. 2 .....................1996-1997 
A3..................AVENGERS VOL. 3......................1998-2004 
A4..................AVENGERS VOL. 4.......................2005-CURRENT 
AA2................AMAZING ADVENTURES VOL. 2.......1970-1976 
AAF................AMAZING FANTASY.......................1962-1996 
AAF2..............AMAZING FANTASY VOL. 2..............2004-2006 
AF..................ALPHA FLIGHT...............................1983-1994 
AF2................ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. 2.....................1997-1999 
AF3................ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. 3.....................2004-2005 
ASM...............AMAZING SPIDER-MAN.....1963-1998, 2003-CURRENT 
ASM2.............AMAZING SPIDER-MAN VOL. 2............1999-2003 
ASTONX.........ASTONISHING X-MEN.........................1995 
ASTONX2.......ASTONISHING X-MEN VOL. 2...............1999 
ASTONX3.......ASTONISHING X-MEN VOL. 3.............2004-CURRENT 
BK.................BLACK KNIGHT...............................1955-1956 
BK2..............BLACK KNIGHT VOL. 2........................1990 
BK:E.............BLACK KNIGHT: EXODUS.....................1996 
BP................BLACK PANTHER...........................1977-1979 
BP2..............BLACK PANTHER VOL. 2.....................1988 
BP3..............BLACK PANTHER VOL. 3....................1998-2003 
BP4..............BLACK PANTHER VOL. 4....................2005-CURRENT 
BSHP............BISHOP..............................................1994-1995 
BSHP2..........BISHOP VOL. 2...................................1999-2001 
BW...............BLACK WIDOW...................................1999 
BW2.............BLACK WIDOW VOL. 2.............................2001 
BW3............ BLACK WIDOW VOL. 3 ..............................2002 
BW4............ BLACK WIDOW VOL. 4...............................2004-2005 
BW5.............BLACK WIDOW VOL. 5................................2005-2006 
BW:CW.........BLACK WIDOW: THE COLDEST WAR..............1990 
BXSE............BISHOP XSE...............................................1998 
C.................CABLE.......................................................1992 
C2................CABLE VOL. 2 ......................................1993-2002 
C&D..............CLOAK & DAGGER..................................1983-1984 
C&D2............CLOAK & DAGGER VOL. 2.........................1985-1987 
C&D3............CLOAK & DAGGER VOL. 3.........................1988-1991 
C&P..............(ADVERNTURES OF) CYCLOPS & PHOENIX.........1994 
C&P2............(FURTHER ADVERNTURES OF) CYCLOPS & PHOENIX...1996 
CA................CAPTAIN AMERICA...............................1968-1996 
CA2..............CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL. 2........................1996-1997 
CA3.............CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL. 3...........................1998-2002 
CA4............ CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL. 4...........................2002-2004 
CA5............CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL. 5.............................2005-CURRENT 
CA:SL2.........CAPTAIN AMERICA: SENTINEL LIBERTY VOL. 2..1998-1999 
CB...............CAPTAIN BRITAIN (British Comic)...................1976-1977 
CB2..............CAPTAIN BRITAIN VOL. 2 (British Comic)..1985-1986 
CM................CAPTAIN MARVEL........................................1968-1979 
CM4..............CAPTAIN MARVEL VOL. 4..............................1995-1996 
CM5..............CAPTAIN MARVEL VOL. 5................................1999-2002 
CM6...............CAPTAIN MARVEL VOL. 6.............................2002-2004 
CM:SWC........CAPTAIN MARVEL: SPEAKING WITHOUT CONCER...1994 
CMS...............CAPTAIN MARVEL SPECIAL.................................1989 
DAMCON.........DAMAGE CONTROL...........................................1989 
DAMCON2.......DAMAGE CONTROL VOL. 2...........................1989-1990 
DAMCON3........DAMAGE CONTROL VOL. 3................................1991 
DD..................DAREDEVIL..............................................1964-1998 
DD2.................DAREDEVIL VOL. 2............................1998-CURRENT 
DDINO..............DEVIL DINOSAUR............................................1978 
DDINO2............DEVIL DINOSAUR VOL. 2....................................1997 
DEF..................DEFENDERS..............................................1972-1986 
DEF2.................DEFENDERS VOL. 2................................... 2001-2002 
DEF3.................DEFENDERS VOL. 3 .................................. 2005-2006 
DLOK.................DEATHLOK.....................................................1990 
DLOK2...............DEATHLOK VOL. 2...................................1991-1994 
DLOK3................DEATHLOK VOL. 3....................................1999-2000 
DOMINO.............DOMINO......................................................1997 
DOMINO2...........DOMINO VOL. 2...........................................2003 
DOOM................DOOM.........................................................2000 
DOOM2..............DOOM VOL. 2................................................2002 
DPOOL...............DEADPOOL.................................................1993 
DPOOL2.............DEADPOOL VOL. 2........................................1994 
DPOOL3.............DEADPOOL VOL. 3...............................1997-2002 
DPOOLTU...........DEADPOOL TEAM-UP......................................1998 
DRSTR...............DR. STRANGE.......................................1968-1969 
DRSTR2.............DR. STRANGE VOL. 2 ..................................1974-1987 
DRSTR3.............DR. STRANGE VOL. 3 ...............................1988-1996 
DRSTR4.............DR. STRANGE VOL. 4 ....................................1999 
DS.....................DOC SAMSON ..............................................1996 
DS2...................DOC SAMSON VOL. 2 ....................................2006 
DS:WDS............DR. STRANGE: WHAT IS IT THAT ...?...............1997 
E.......................ETERNALS.............................................1976-1978 
E2.....................ETERNALS VOL. 2...................................1985-1986 
E:A....................ELEKTRA: ASSASSIN.............................1986-1987 
E:HEROD...........ETERNALS: HEROD FACTOR............................1991 
E:ROE................ELEKTRA: ROOT OF EVIL..............................1995 
ELEK.................ELEKTRA.............................................1996-1998 
ELEK2................ELEKTRA VOL. 2....................................2001-2004 
F/A....................FURY/AGENT 13.............................................1998 
FF.....................FANTASTIC FOUR..........1961-1996, 2003-CURRENT 
FF2....................FANTASTIC FOUR VOL. 2........................1996-1997 
FF3....................FANTASTIC FOUR VOL. 3.......................1998-2003 
FOS...................FURY OF SHIELD...........................................1995 
FURY.................FURY .............................................................1994 
GAM..................GAMBIT.................................................1993-1994 
GAM2................GAMBIT VOL. 2...............................................1997 
GAM3................GAMBIT VOL. 3.......................................1999-2001 
GAM4................GAMBIT VOL. 4......................................2004-2005 
GR....................GHOST RIDER.................................................1967 
GR2..................GHOST RIDER VOL. 2..............................1973-1983 
GR3..................GHOST RIDER VOL. 3................................1990-1998 
GR5..................GHOST RIDER VOL. 5............................... 2005-2006 
GR:HL...............GHOST RIDER: HAMMER LANE.....................2001-2002 
H......................HULK .......................................................1962-1963 
H2....................HULK VOL. 2...............................................1968-1999 
H3....................HULK VOL. 3.........................................1999-CURRENT 
HAWK...............HAWKEYE..........................................................1983 
HAWK2.............HAWKEYE VOL. 2..................................................1994 
HAWK3.............HAWKEYE VOL. 3................................................1998 
HAWK4.............HAWKEYE VOL. 4.........................................2003-2004 
HC...................HULK COMIC (British Comic)........................1979-1980 
HTD.................HOWARD THE DUCK.....................................1976-1986 
HTD2...............HOWARD THE DUCK VOL. 2 ..................................2002 
HTD MAG.........HOWARD THE DUCK (MAGAZINE)...................1979-1981 
I:GR................INHUMANS: THE GREAT REFUGE.............................1995 
I:US................INHUMANS: THE UNTOLD SAGA............................1990 
ICE..................ICEMAN......................................................1984-1985 
ICE2................ICEMAN VOL. 2............................................2001-2002 
IF....................IRON FIST....................................................1975-1977 
IF2..................IRON FIST VOL. 2.................................................1996 
IF3..................IRON FIST VOL. 3...............................................1998 
IF4..................IRON FIST VOL. 4................................................2004 
IM...................IRON MAN...................................................1968-1996 
IM2.................IRON MAN VOL. 2.........................................1996-1997 
IM3.................IRON MAN VOL. 3..........................................1998-2004 
IM4.................IRON MAN VOL. 4.................................... 2005-CURRENT 
INH.................INHUMANS....................................................1975-1977 
INH2...............INHUMANS VOL. 2..........................................1998-1999 
INH3...............INHUMANS VOL. 3..................................................2000 
INH4...............INHUMANS VOL. 4............................................2003-2004 
INV.................INVADERS.................................................1975-1979 
INV2...............INVADERS VOL. 2...............................................1993 
INV3...............INVADERS VOL. 3.......................................2004-2005 
J.....................JUSTICE.....................................................1986-1989 
J2...................JUSTICE VOL. 2....................................................1994 
J:ED...............JUGGERNAUT: EIGHTH DAY...................................1999 
JUGGERNAUT...JUGGERNAUT.......................................................1997 
KP&W..............KITTY PRYDE & WOLVERINE...........................1984-1985 
KPAOS............KITTY PRYDE, AGENT OF SHIELD......................1997-1998 
KP:SAF?..........KITTY PRYDE: SHADOW & FLAME............................2005 
KZ..................KA-ZAR........................................................1970-1971 
KZ2.................KA-ZAR VOL. 2.............................................1974-1977 
KZ3.................KA-ZAR VOL. 3..............................................1981-1984 
KZ4.................KA-ZAR VOL. 4............................................1997-1998 
LSHOT..............LONGSHOT...................................................1985-1986 
LSHOT2............LONGSHOT VOL. 2...............................................1998 
M/FAN...............MARVEL FANFARE........................................1982-1992 
M/FAN2.............MARVEL FANFARE VOL. 2...............................1996-1997 
M/K..................MARVEL KNIGHTS..........................................2000-2001 
M/K2................MARVEL KNIGHTS VOL. 2....................................2002 
M/SH................MARVEL SUPER-HEROES.................................1967-1982 
M/SH2...............MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOL. 2 (British Magazine)??? 
M/SH3...............MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOL. 3....................1990-1993 
M/SPT................MARVEL SPOTLIGHT...................................1971-1977 
M/SPT2..............MARVEL SPOTLIGHT VOLUME 2.....................1979-1981 
M/TU..................MARVEL TEAM-UP....................................1972-1985 
M/TU2................MARVEL TEAM-UP VOL. 2............................1997-1998 
M/TU3................MARVEL TEAM-UP VOL. 3.....................2005-CURRENT 
M-T....................MAN-THING...............................................1970-1975 
M-T2..................MAN-THING VOL. 2.....................................1979-1981 
M-T3..................MAN-THING VOL. 3....................................1997-1998 
MAV...................MAVERICK.......................................................1997 
MAV2..................MAVERICK VOL. 2....................................1997-1999 
MB......................MARVEL BOY.............................................1950-1951 
MB2....................MARVEL BOY VOL. 2...................................2000-2001 
MGK ...................MAGIK.....................................................1983-1984 
MGK2 ..................MAGIK VOL. 2..........................................2000-2001 
MK.......................MOON KNIGHT..........................................1980-1984 
MK2.....................MOON KNIGHT VOL. 2........................................1985 
MK3.....................MOON KNIGHT VOL. 3...............................1989-1994 
MK4.....................MOON KNIGHT VOL. 4.......................................1998 
MK5.....................MOON KNIGHT VOL. 5........................................1999 
MOKF...................MASTER OF KUNG FU................................1974-1983 
MOKF2.................MASTER OF KUNG FU VOL. 2......................2002-2003 
MOKF:BB..............MASTER OF KUNG FU: BLEEDING BLACK....1991 
N..........................NAMOR................................................1990-1995 
NC........................NIGHTCRAWLER.....................................1985-1986 
NC2......................NIGHTCRAWLER VOL. 2...................................2002 
NC3......................NIGHTCRAWLER VOL. 3..........................2004-2006 
NFAOS..................NICK FURY, AGENT OF SHIELD..................1968-1971 
NFV.S....................NICK FURY VS. SHIELD..................................1988 
NF3.......................NICK FURY VOL. 3..................................1989-1993 
NM........................NEW MUTANTS.......................................1983-1991 
NM2......................NEW MUTANTS VOL. 2.............................2003-2004 
NM:TD...................NEW MUTANTS: TRUTH OR DEATH.............1997-1998 
NO.........................NOVA...................................................1976-1979 
NO2.......................NOVA VOL. 2........................................1994-1995 
NO3.......................NOVA VOL. 3.............................................1999 
NOM.......................NOMAD..............................................1990-1991 
NOM2.....................NOMAD VOL. 2.....................................1992-1994 
NT..........................NIGHT THRASHER................................1992-1993 
NT2........................NIGHT THRASHER VOL. 2.......................1993-1995 
NW.........................NEW WARRIORS.....................................1990-1996 
NW2.......................NEW WARRIORS VOL. 2.........................1999-2000 
NW3.......................NEW WARRIORS VOL. 3.........................2005-2006 
ORDER...................ORDER........................................................2002 
P&W.......................PRYDE & WISDOM.......................................1996 
PM.........................POWER-MAN............................................1974-1980 
PM&IF.....................POWER-MAN & IRON FIST.....................1981-1986 
PPSM2....................PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN VOL. 2...1999-2003 
PPTSS.....................SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN..............1976-1998 
PPTSS2...................SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN VOL. 2....2003-2005 
PUN........................PUNISHER..................................................1986 
PUN2......................PUNISHER VOL. 2.................................1987-1995 
PUN3......................PUNISHER VOL. 3.................................1995-1997 
PUN4......................PUNISHER VOL. 4.................................1998-1999 
PUN5......................PUNISHER VOL. 5...................................2000-2001 
PUN6......................PUNISHER VOL. 6...................................2001-2004 
PUN7......................PUNISHER VOL. 7.......................... 2004-CURRENT 
R............................ROGUE .....................................................1995 
R3..........................ROGUE VOL. 3 ...................................2004-2005 
RH..........................RAMPAGING HULK.................................1977-1978 
RH2........................RAMPAGING HULK VOL. 2.....................1998-1999 
S-H........................SHE-HULK.............................................1980-1982 
S-H2......................SHE-HULK VOL. 2..................................1989-1994 
S-H3......................SHE-HULK VOL. 3...................................2004-2005 
S-H4......................SHE-HULK VOL. 4...........................2005-CURRENT 
S-W.......................SPIDER-WOMAN....................................1978-1983 
S-W2.....................SPIDER-WOMAN VOL. 2...........................1993-1994 
S-W3.....................SPIDER-WOMAN VOL. 3..........................1999-2000 
SECDEF.................SECRET DEFENDERS................................1993-1995 
SENTINEL...............SENTINEL...............................................2003-2004 
SENTINEL2 ............SENTINEL VOL. 2..............................................2006 
SENTRY.................SENTRY..................................................2000-2001 
SENTRY2...............SENTRY VOL. 2........................................2005-2006 
SS........................SILVER SURFER.......................................1968-1970 
SS2......................SILVER SURFER VOL. 2....................................1982 
SS3......................SILVER SURFER VOL. 3............................1987-1998 
SS4......................SILVER SURFER VOL. 4.............................2003-2004 
ST........................STRANGE TALES....................................1951-1976 
ST2......................STRANGE TALES VOL. 2............................1987-1988 
ST3.......................STRANGE TALES VOL. 3..................................1994 
ST4......................STRANGE TALES VOL. 4....................................1998 
ST:DC...................STRANGE TALES: DARK CORNERS...................1998 
SUB-M..................SUB-MARINER.........................................1968-1974 
SUB-M2................SUB-MARINER VOL. 2......................................1984 
T...........................THOR....................................................1966-1996 
T2.........................THOR VOL. 2.........................................1998-2004 
TB........................THUNDERBOLTS ....................................1997-2003 
TB2.......................THUNDERBOLTS VOL. 2..................2005-CURRENT 
TG.........................THING................................................1983-1986 
TG2.......................THING VOL. 2.................................2006-CURRENT 
TOS.......................TALES OF SUSPENSE............................1959-1968 
TOS2.....................TALES OF SUSPENSE VOL. 2..........................1995 
TTA........................TALES TO ASTONISH.............................1959-1968 
TTA2......................TALES TO ASTONISH VOL. 2...................REPRINTS 
TTA3......................TALES TO ASTONISH VOL. 3...........................1994 
USA.......................USAGENT....................................................1993 
USA2......................USAGENT VOL. 2...........................................2001 
V............................VISION.................................................1994-1995 
V2..........................VISION VOL. 2.......................................2002-2003 
V&SW.....................VISION & SCARLET WITCH....................1982-1983 
V&SW2...................VISION & SCARLET WITCH VOL. 2...........1985-1986 
W............................WOLVERINE.................................................1982 
W2..........................WOLVERINE VOL. 2................................1988-2003 
W3..........................WOLVERINE VOL. 3.........................2003-CURRENT 
WCA........................WEST COAST AVENGERS...............................1984 
WCA2.....................WEST COAST AVENGERS VOL. 2............1985-1994 
WI?.........................WHAT IF..............................................1977-1984 
WI?2.......................WHAT IF VOL. 2....................................1989-1998 
WLOCK....................WARLOCK...........................................1975-1976 
WLOCK3..................WARLOCK VOL. 3..................................1998-1999 
WLOCK4..................WARLOCK VOL. 4.................................1999-2000 
WLOCK5..................WARLOCK VOL. 5.................................2004-2005 
WM..........................WONDER MAN...............................................1986 
WM2........................WONDER MAN VOL. 2.............................1991-1994 
XCAL.......................EXCALIBUR..........................................1988-1998 
XCAL2......................EXCALIBUR VOL. 2.......................................2001 
XCAL3......................EXCALIBUR VOL. 3...............................2004-2005 
XCAL4.....................EXCALIBUR VOL. 4.........................2006-CURRENT 
XF............................X-FACTOR............................................1986-1998 
XF2..........................X-FACTOR VOL. 2..........................................2002 
XF3..........................X-FACTOR VOL. 3..........................2006-CURRENT 
XFOR.......................X-FORCE.............................................1991-2002 
XFOR2......................X-FORCE VOL. 2..................................2004-2005 
XSE.........................XSE.....................................................1996-1997 

That's a lot of comics, but if I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 89

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 12:27 pm    Post subject: Richard Rory
by scottandrewhutchins

Did Richard Rory appear in S-H 18 & 19? He isn't listed as such, but in 17 he doesn't know that Jen is She-Hulk, and in 20 (his next appearance according to the Chronology) he does, and gets hit by Sheriff Walters for telling him Jen is She-Hulk. Obviously, this means she didn't go public in either of those issues, or her dad would know.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 02:44 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I don't believe Richard appeared in S-H 18, but he did in fact appear in S-H 19. In that issue, we learn that Richard figured out that Jen was She-Hulk some time ago, (and just kept it to himself). 

The general public didn't truly learn that Jennifer was the She-Hulk till S-H 25. 

So yes, Richard should get a listing for S-H 19.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 90

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 05:29 pm    Post subject: Tarzan canon
By Enda80

Tarzan is now canon. I say this as the Atlantis entry in the recent Handbook references Opar, an Atlantis offshoot from the Tarzon stories. In Tarzan I#3, La of Opar invoked Valka. If the people of Opar still remain active today, Varnae should look out.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 06:42 pm    
By loki

Just because Opar gets mentioned doesn't mean Tarzan automatically follows.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 07:06 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Maybe so, but it is a pretty strong indication that the Marvel Tarzan series can fit into the MU. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 07:15 pm   
By loki

Evidence in that direction, yes. But not confirmation of such a definitive statement as "Tarzan is now canon."

			*	*	*

Thread 91

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 05:34 pm    Post subject: Howard the Duck magazine
By scottandrewhutchins

Steve Gerber has said very publicly that he was appalled by it, and wrote a story Jim Shooter asked for but decided not to publish in which the stories in the magazine were products of the imagination of Chirreep, a Kylorian techno-artist like Bereep from Incredible Hulk 269-287, whcih has cuased the real Howard to be falling through another dimension. 

In the magazine, Mantlo makes Kong Lomerate from HTD 10 and Mr. Persecutor from HTD 27, both dream figures, into real-world characters with no explanation, which suggests that the stories aren't real. 

In Savage She-Hulk 17, Richard Rory is shown reading Howard the Duck magazine, a "?" on the logo indicating it could not be the comicbook. While Marvel Comics does exist in the Marvel Universe and publishes, for example Fantastic Four comics, the Fantastic Four are public figures, and Howard the Duck hardly qualifies; even his presidential campaign was third party. Is Lyndon LaRouche a public figure? And that's still apples and oranges considering how many times LaRouche has run. 

Anyway, Harold H. Harold being turned into a vampire in HTDMAG 5 kind of nixes that theory, since he continued to appear in TOD as a vampire after that issue. for the record, according to Gerber, Howard doesn't come from Duckworld (AIF 19 implies there are a variety of sentient animals on Howard's homeworld, but there are no statements as such anywhere in the run), and his parents are named Dave and Dotty, not Ronald and Henrietta, as Mantlo named them. Wouldn't Howard's creator know better what his parents' names were. 

Of course, what does this have to do with chronological appearances, hard to say, but there does seem as much or more evidence that the stories are fictional than that they actually occurred.

Last edited by scottandrewhutchins on 30 Jan 2006 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 07:03 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

scottandrewhutchins wrote: 
>>>
Wouldn't Howard's creator know better what his parents' names were. 
<<<

For our purposes, no. The actual stories published take priority over the intentions of the original creators. Same rules as for any other character. 

From a continuity standpoint, this would be the same regardless of the legal disputes over the character. But in any event, those disputes were eventually resolved with Gerber conceding Marvel's ownership of Howard (presumably in exchange for an out-of-court settlement). Whoever owned Howard to start with, there's no doubt that Marvel own him now, and Gerber's original plans for the character have no particular status for continuity purposes.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Jan 2006 01:36 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Steve Gerber later wrote a Marvel/Image crossover story that appeared in Spider-Man Team-Up #5 and the Savage Dragon/Destroyer Duck one-shot. 

Although for the most part, the story followed the same tack through both issues, Gerber added an extra scene into the SD/DD issue, revealing that during the battle at the story's end, Howard and Beverly were cloned. The originals traveled to the Image Universe, and the clones stayed in the Marvel Universe. 

If one believes that both halves of the story are canon, then any HTD appearances after S-MTU #5 would be that of a clone. The "real" Howard is now living in the Image Universe, under witness protection, and is now called "Leonard the Duck". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2006 01:50 am    
By JLH

Though when the MAX mini came about, Gerber backpeddled on his position about it.

			*	*	*

Thread 92

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Iron Man BTS appearance in CX 4/2
By wolframbane

In CX 4/2, Nightcrawler tells Wolverine that Xavier arranged with Tony Stark to provide an image inducer for him. If this is taken as a BTS appearance for Stark, CX 4/2 occurs between UX 96 [12.75] and UX 97 [2.76], so it would likely occur around IM 81-83 [12.75-2.76]. 

Another possibility is that Xavier recieved the image inducer from Stark the same time he recieved the costumes made of unstable molecules. According to the X-Men Index v1 #4, Reed Richards had a BTS appearance between GSX 1 and UX 4, which occurs after FF 149, when he donated the costumes to Xavier. This could place his BTS appearance sometime before IM 77 [8.75].

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2006 02:31 am    
By Starman

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
[...] Reed Richards had a BTS appearance between GSX 1 and UX 4, [...] 
<<<

UX 94
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 31 Jan 2006 03:32 am    
By Somebody

And, on top of that, the BTS would have to be either before or between pages of GSXM1 since Xavier gives Reed and his unstable molecules an explicit namecheck when Storm asks how he got the fit of the costumes just right.

			*	*	*

Thread 93

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 03:44 am    Post subject: Thor: Blood Oath 1-6
By Col_Fury

Thor: Blood Oath #1 
W: Michael Avon Oeming 
D: Scott Kolins 
Published: November, 2005 

Appearances: 
Thor(Don Blake), Absorbing Man(Crusher Creel), Jane Foster, Heimdall, Odin, Gnives, Fandrall, Hogun, Volstagg, Balder, Sif, Loki, Vidar, Valkyrie II(Brunnhilde), Holth(in FB). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: New York, many years ago 
Thor fights a giant Absorbing Man in New York. After defeating him, Thor changes into Don Blake and realizes how much destruction the fight caused. 
Pg8: New York, hospital, same day 
Don meets Jane and explains why there are suddenly so many injuries. They encounter an embarrassed young mutant. 
Pg9: New York, hospital, same day 
Don and Jane talk about the young mutant, which leads to Jane mentioning they should go to an upcoming genetics conference together, which leads to a conversation about the beginnings of biological life. 
Pg10-pg13: Dons place, that night 
Don dreams of Ragnarok, wakes up and changes into Thor. 
Pg14: Asgard 
Thor meets Heimdall on the Rainbow Bridge, who informs him that the Warriors Three are on trial for murder! 
Pg15: Thingvellir, Asgard 
The trial! 
Pg16pn1-pn6: FB 
The Warriors Three are out fishing in the North Seas. They kill Holth, whos in the form of a whale, thinking hes a real whale. 
Pg16pn7(of 7)-pg22: Thingvellir, Asgard 
As Odin and Gnives are about to pass judgment, Thor interrupts and says he stands by the Warriors Three. Gnives puts forth a series of five tasks, which Volstagg agrees to before he knows what they are. If they achieve them, Gnives will call peace. If they fail, Thor and the Warriors Three will be executed. Also, Thor cant use his hammer except for transportation. 
Pg23: Asgard, the next morning 
On horseback, Thor and the Warriors Three begin their journey. 

References: 
Sunny in New York, raining that night. 

Thor mentions to himself that the Absorbing Man can absorb the mystic properties of Mjolnir. 

Pg1-pg13 are all in one day on Earth. 
Pg14-pg22 are all in one day in Asgard. 
Pg23 Asgard, day two. 

Thor: Blood Oath #2 
W: Michael Avon Oeming 
D: Scott Kolins 
Published: December, 2005 

Appearances: 
Thor(Don Blake), Fandrall, Hogun, Volstagg, Rattatosk, Lerad, Dionysus, Hercules, the Norns(in FB). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Asgard 
Thor and the Warriors Three travel across Asgard to Yggdrasil the World Tree for the first task. That night they eat at a campfire. 
Pg4-pg15: Yggdrasil, the next day 
They climb the tree and meet Rattatosk who offers his help. They make it to the top that night and encounter Lerad. Volstagg distracts him with a riddle and a drinking contest. The others grab some giant apples. As they run away, Lerad is pissed and sends some giants eagles after them to get the apples back and kill them. Since the task is completed, Thor teleports them away. 
Pg6pn2(of 5): FB 
The Norns weave the roots of Yggdrasil into a quilt. 
Pg16-pg18: Olympia, daytime 
Thor and the Warriors Three appear in a waterfall. When they get out at the bottom, they set up camp. That night while eating, a disguised Dionysus asks them for food. 
Pg19-pg22: Olympia, the next day 
Dionysus reveals himself and explains that someone has stolen his magic pig, which is their second task. Because he hasnt had his wine in so long, hes aged rapidly. The person that stole the pig is Hercules! 

References: 
Pg1-pg3: Asgard, day two. 
Pg4-pg15: Asgard, day three. 
Pg16-pg18: Olympia, day one. 
Pg19-pg22: Olympia, day two. 

Thor: Blood Oath #3 
W: Michael Avon Oeming 
D: Scott Kolins 
Published: December, 2005 

Appearances: 
Thor(Don Blake), Fandrall, Hogun, Volstagg, Dionysus, Hercules, Zeus, Hermes, Apollo, Artemis, and one other.(bearded, Neptune?) 

Synopsis: 
Thor and Hercules fight while some Olympian gods watch and make bets. 

References: 
Pg1-pg22: Olympia, day two. 

Even though they fought once before, Hercules is too drunk to recognize Thor. They only met once, so this series occurs between their first and second meetings. 

Thor: Blood Oath #4 
W: Michael Avon Oeming 
D: Scott Kolins 
Published: January, 2006 

Appearances: 
Thor(Don Blake), Fandrall, Hogun, Volstagg, Dionysus, Hercules, Zeus, Hermes, Apollo, Artemis, and one other,(bearded, Neptune?) Froud, Chulain. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: Olympia 
Thor ends the fight with a bolt of lightning. Dionysus restores his youth with some wine, the Olympians settle their bets and mention that Ares should have seen the fight, Hercules apologizes to Thor and says hell remember him next time they meet, and the Warriors Three borrow the pig, ending their second task. 
Pg8-pg23: Ireland, evening 
Thor and the Warriors Three appears in Ireland and run into some tourists on their way to Stonehenge. They go underground and meet Froud who shows them the spear Slaughter, their third task. Froud says they stole a human baby which upsets Thor. They take the baby and Slaughter and run off. Outside, the baby turns out to be Chulain, who grabs Slaughter and cuts off Volstaggs head. 

References: 
Pg1-pg7: Olympia day two. 
Pg8-pg23: Ireland, the present, day one. 

Its foggy in Ireland. 

Thor: Blood Oath #5 
W: Michael Avon Oeming 
D: Scott Kolins 
Published: February, 2006 

Appearances: 
Thor(Don Blake), Fandrall, Hogun, Volstagg, Chulain, Gnives. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13: Ireland 
Volstagg falls over, decapitated. Chulain impales Thor, then knocks over Fandrall. Hogun smashes Chulain with the tourists car, hits him in the head with his mace, and retrieves Slaughter, finishing the third task. Chulain escapes and Fandrall heals Thor and Volstagg with an apple from Yggdrasil. Thor teleports them away as the police arrive. 
Pg14: Jutenheim 
Gnives is informed that the tasks are almost completed. 
Pg15-pg21: Japan, the past 
After sewing Volstaggs head back on, they proceed with their fourth task. They make their way through warring armies and enter a temple, but are greeted by demons and ghosts 

References: 
Pg1-pg13: Ireland, the present, day one. 
Pg14: Jutenheim 
Pg15-pg21: Japan, the past, day one. 

Thor: Blood Oath #6 
W: Michael Avon Oeming 
D: Scott Kolins 
Published: February, 2006 

Appearances: 
Thor(Don Blake), Toth, Ulik, Odin, Gnives, Fandrall, Hogun, Volstagg, Balder, Sif, Vidar, Valkyrie II(Brunnhilde), Ulif, Njord, Holths body, Jane Foster. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Japan, the past 
Thor asks to borrow the sword Grasscutter, which the ghosts relinquish willingly. They explain now that someone else has possession of the sword, their souls are free. A giant talking raccoon hands it over. With the fourth task complete, they teleport away as the armies break into the temple. 
Pg6-pg16pn2: Egypt, the past, night 
As Thor approaches the land of Toth, statutes attack and try to stop the group. After a skirmish, Hogun calls for Toth but is stopped by Ulik. Since he was sent by Gnives, Thor decides that Gnives has broken the agreement, and that he is free to use Mjolnir. The fight awakens Toth, completing the fifth task, and Toth sends them all away. 
Pg16pn3(of 5)-pg20pn3: Thingvellir, Asgard 
Appearing before a waiting Odin and Gnives, Thor throws Ulik at Gnives and declares the tasks over. Gnives calls Thor a cheater for using his hammer. A fight is about to begin when Gnives wife Ulif stops everyone. She calls her husband an opportunist and sets her own stipulations for restoring honor to her sons death. Everyone agrees to her terms. 
Pg20pn4(of 4): North Seas 
Njord raises Holths body. 
Pg21pn1: An island between Jutenheim and Asgard, daytime 
Thor and the Warriors Three build a funeral pyre for Holth. 
Pg21pn2(of 2): An island between Jutenheim and Asgard, night 
Holths body is burned on the pyre. 
Pg22: New York, hospital, daytime 
Jane is pissed at Don for missing the genetics conference 

References: 
Pg1-pg5: Japan, the past, day one. 
Pg6-pg16pn2: Egypt, the past, day one. 
Pg16pn3-pg20pn3: Asgard, some time after issue one. 
Pg20pn4: North Seas, one day 
Pg21: The island, one day into night. 
Pg22: Earth, some time after issue one. 

Who knows how much time has passed on Earth while they were completing their tasks, but it was long enough for the upcoming genetics conference to come and go. 

As for placement, this is before JIM 124, where Thor reveals he is Don Blake to Jane Foster.(I cant remember if that sticks, though. I only own 123 & 124 of JIM, and I dont own any more Thor issues until 200 forward) I know at least that Jane is hospitalized until JIM 124 because of Dons constant dissapearings, so this happens before that story starts at least. Hercules appears at the end of JIM 124, and I think meets Thor again in Thor 125. 

As for Thor and Hercules, they both appear in JIM@ 1 and T@ 5, both of which take place in the past. They occur in different orders in their respective chronologies, so Im not sure which has their first meeting.(I dont own those, either) At the very least, this series occurs after one of those, but before JIM 124 and its storyline. 

Also, Thor notes that the Absorbing Man can absorb the properties of Mjolnir, which I dont think was revealed until JIM 124.(Creel was surprised that he absorbed the powers of Lokis scepter in JIM 123) If thats the case, and this series has to be before JIM 124, I think its safe to assume that Thor was just being careful, guessing that Creel could absorb Mjolnirs qualities. 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 08:41 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
As for Thor and Hercules, they both appear in JIM@ 1 and T@ 5, both of which take place in the past.  
<<<

According to Olshevsky's Marvel Comics Index for Thor, the story in JIM@ 1 is "an imaginary 'What If?' tale; first meeting between gods of Asgard and Olympus occurs in the story told in" T@ 5. 

Thanks for the analysis, Col-Fury.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 09:34 pm    
By Enda80

Check the back of Avengers Index#1 for JIM@1, where Olshevsky qualifed it by saying if that story did happen, it took place in the modern era. Other than that, I refer you to Thor I#300, which I think may have referenced JIM@1. 

Incidentally, Thor Annual#5 was stated in Thor I#300, Hercules and Zeus' entries to involve time travel. Though incarnations of the Asgardian gods go back to at least the Hyborian Age (witness references to Wodan, Wotun, etc. in the Conan stories), the current version goes back no farther than 2000 years ago or so. Therefore, by the time Thor reached adulthood, the Roman Catholic Church had destroyed the worship of the Olympian gods.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jan 2006 06:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Check the back of Avengers Index#1 for JIM@1, where Olshevsky qualifed it by saying if that story did happen, it took place in the modern era. Other than that, I refer you to Thor I#300, which I think may have referenced JIM@1.  
<<<

Thanks for pointing this out, Enda80. Olshevsky qualifies his statement about JIM@ 1 in the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 1: "If this story is not an imaginary tale..." In T 300, I see references to T@ 5 and T@ 7, but not JIM@ 1. The reference to T@ 5 is the one involving Hercules.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 94

Posted: 03 Jan 2006 03:14 pm    Post subject: WOSM@4
By scottandrewhutchins

Poison is in this issue, but though she has an entry she isn't listed here, so here is an extremly exhaustive list of the other characters on the issue: 

Poison/Cecilia Cardinale (first appearance) 
Cardinale, Carlos " 
Mara (Carlos's nanny) " 
Denby, Doyle "? 
Santo "? 
waitress at Miami Moon diner 
Slug's man sent to kill Santo (suffocated by Slug) 
4 drug smugglers 
Eliminators of the High Evolutionary 
Jewish couple talking about drugs 
Ylandris (spirit joined with Poison) 

WOSM@4/2 
Poison/Cecilia Cardinale +FB 
Ylandris +FB 
Vassily (Carlos's father) (FB) 
pusher in Cuba 
MPs (4) who carry pregnant Cecilia (FB) 
midwife (FB) 
whores and johns in Cuba 
bleeding drunk 
man Poison mistakes for Vassily 


Already listed: 

WOSM@ 4 
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM Next: WCA@ 3 
KINGPIN/WILSON FISK Next: DD 261 
MAN-THING/THEODORE 'TED' SALLIS Next: M/CP 29/4 
SLUG/ULYSSES X. LUGMAN Next: M/CP 61/2 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER Next: PPTSS 143 
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE Next: PPTSS 143

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Thread 95

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 02:28 am    Post subject: Deathlok v3 1-3
By Col_Fury

Deathlok v3 #1 
the Crawl from Small Things pt 1 
W: Joe Casey 
D: Leonardo Manco 
Published: September 1999 

Appearances: 
Col. Nick Fury, Lawrence Young, Seagrum, Kelso, Jackson, Billy Bailey/Jack Truman, Bea Bailey, Ted Bailey, Dum Dum Dugan(in FB-BTS), Deathlok V(Agent 18/Jack Truman). 

Synopsis: 
This series picks up directly where X 99 left off, the mindless Deathlok V robot on the streets of Las Vegas 
Pg1-pg7: Las Vegas, night 
Seagrum & Kelso discuss old TV shows until Commander Lawrence Young reminds them of their orders. Theyre in the SHIELD Air Calvary division, on a recon mission investigating heat plumes in Las Vegas. Fury calls agent Young to remind him not to use any weapons. 
The mindless Deathlok V robot is running around Las Vegas, blowing things up causing the heat plumes. It attacks agent Youngs flying car, so he disobeys orders and the squad fires on Deathlok V. 
Pg8-pg9pn4: the Bailey residence, afternoon 
Billy is playing outside when his mom(Bea) calls him in for dinner. Hes getting ready to eat when he remembers 
Pg9pn5: FB, Lybia 
fighting Lybian insurgents on orders from Dum Dum Dugan. 
Pg9pn6(of 6)-pg10pn4: the Bailey residence, afternoon 
Billy greets his dad(Ted), but during dinner Billy remembers 
Pg10pn5: FB 
shooting a German terrorist with a hostage. 
Pg10pn6-pg10pn9(of 9): the Bailey residence 
Billy asks to be excused from dinner. 
Pg11: Las Vegas, night 
SHIELD agents fight the mindless Deathlok V robot. 
Pg12pn1: the Bailey residence, night 
Billy sleeps and dreams of 
Pg12pn2: FB 
fighting Hand ninjas 
Pg12pn3: the Bailey residence 
Billy sleeps and dreams of 
Pg12pn4: FB 
fighting an elephant. 
Pg12pn5-pn6(of 6): the Bailey residence 
Billy wakes up and is comforted by Bea. 
Pg13pn1-pn3: Las Vegas, night 
Agent Young gets chewed out by Fury, Young asks what that thing is, so Fury tells him. 
Pg13pn4(of 4): FB 
There was a recent incident on the Helicarrier involving the Red Skull. In the confusion, the prototype of SHIELDs new Logarithmic Organic Kinetics department got loose. No new information. The body of Jack Truman(Agent 18) was used. The body currently has no mind, its running on automatic. This is a montage recap FlashBack, with generic shots of the characters. Redundant information. 
Pg14: Las Vegas, night 
The fight with the mindless Deathlok V resumes. 
Pg15: the Bailey residence/secret SHIELD installation 
Bea calls Ted at work.(she doesnt know where he works, its a secret) 
Pg16-pg17: Billys school 
Billy beats the crap out of some of his classmates, then mouths off to his principal. 
Pg18-pg20: Las Vegas, night 
The SHIELD agents are losing the fight, so Fury(on the Helicarrier) calls in reinforcements: Zero Company. 
Pg21-pg22: Billys school 
Billys personality is pushed to the side when Jack Truman realizes who/where he is. The SHIELD agent FlashBacks were his, and he is now the dominant personality in Billys body. But where is his body?(Hint: Its in Las Vegas) 

References: 
The recent incident on the Helicarrier was shown in UX 371, X 91, & X '99. This story picks up the day after that story ends. 

Fury and agent Young talk about a fiasco in Hells Kitchen, a reference to Cable 59-62. 

The fight in Las Vegas seems to be all in one night, but Billys segment spans two days, so this story is being shown to us out of sequence. 

Jack Trumans body was used to make Deathlok V, so thats Jack Truman in UX 371, X 91, & X 99. But his psyche had already left that body by the time that story started.(revealed next issue) Jack is appearing in two places simultaneously in this and the next two issues. Psyche in one place, body in the other. 

Deathlok v3 #2 
the Crawl pt 2 
Thrill-Kill Confidential 
W: Joe Casey 
D: Leonardo Manco 
Published: October 1999 

Appearances: 
Col. Nick Fury, Lawrence Young, Seagrum, Kelso, Jackson, Billy Bailey/Jack Truman, Bea Bailey, Ted Bailey, Clown(Crafty Eliot Franklin), Deathlok V(Agent 18/Jack Truman), Zero Company. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2pn2: the Bailey residence, early morning 
Billy/Jack exercises. 
Pg2pn3: FB 
Recaps Cable 59-62, no new information. 
Pg2pn4(of 4): the Bailey residence, early morning 
Jack thinks to himself. 
Pg3pn1: FB 
Recaps Cable 59-62, no new information. 
Pg3pn2: FB 
Jack Truman in stasis on the Helicarrier 
Pg3pn3: the Bailey residence, early morning 
Jack thinks. 
Pg3pn4: FB 
Jack in stasis. 
Pg3pn5: FB 
Jack bounces his psyche into a low level SHIELD agent: Ted Bailey. 
Pg3pn6: the Bailey residence 
Jack thinks. 
Pg3pn7: FB 
Ted drives home, unaware of Jacks psyche. 
Pg3pn8: FB 
Jacks psyche bounces into Billy. 
Pg3pn9(of 9)-pg4pn1: the Bailey residence, early morning 
Jack gets on the internet, checks on the SHIELD mainframe to find out where his body is. Its in Las Vegas now fighting an Air Cav team. 
Pg4pn2(of 5)-pg7: Las Vegas 
SHIELD agents are fighting the mindless Deathlok V. Fury tells Young to keep it busy until Zero Company arrives. 
Pg8: Utah state prison. 
The Clown(Crafty Eliot Franklin) escapes from prison. 
Pg9-pg12: the Bailey residence/secret SHIELD installation 
Billy/Jack, Bea, & Ted eat breakfast, then Billy/Jack hides in Teds trunk on his way to work. Its a secret SHIELD installation, & Billy/Jack quickly finds the motor pool where they keep the flying cars. Hes stopped by two SHIELD agents, so he beats them up. 
Pg13-pg17: Las Vegas 
The mindless Deathlok V blows up some slot machines. 
Agent Young buys some Southern Comfort. 
Seagrum & Kelso watch Zero Company land. 
Pg18-pg20: secret SHIELD installation 
Billy/Jack overrides a flying car with the secret password: Wha-Hoo. 
Pg21-pg22: Las Vegas 
Zero Company has arrived! 

References: 
The Las Vegas scenes continue directly from last issue, and the Billy/Jack scenes are all in one day. Since theyve been shown to us concurrently, the fight in Las Vegas has been lasting for more than a day. 

Jack regained his memories yesterday at school, making this issue the day after last issue. His memories have been in Billys head for a few days before he gained dominance, and he left his body before UX 371, X 91, & X 99. Therefore, those X-titles happened in those few days, and this series starts the day after X 99. 

Zero Company is an elite SHIELD strike force, but none of the members are named. They dont even talk. 

Deathlok v3 #3 
the Crawl pt 3 
Love, Sweet Love 
W: Joe Casey 
D: Leonardo Manco 
Published: November 1999 

Appearances: 
Col. Nick Fury, Lawrence Young, the President, Seagrum, Kelso, Billy Bailey/Jack Truman, Clown(Crafty Eliot Franklin), Deathlok V(Agent 18/Jack Truman), Zero Company. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: the Helicarrier 
Fury tells the President whats going on. 
Pg2-pg3: Las Vegas 
Zero Company fights the mindless Deathlok V. 
Pg4: east of Nevada 
Billy/Jack flies towards Las Vegas. 
Pg5-pg8: Las Vegas 
The Helicarrier approaches Las Vegas. 
Billy/Jack passes Kelso & Seagrum. 
Zero Company fight the mindless Deathlok V. 
Pg9-pg15: Las Vegas 
Kelso & Seagrum attack Billy/Jack, he steals their flying car. A drunken agent Young then attacks Zero Company and Billy/Jack confronts the mindless Deathlok V. 
Pg16-pg18: Las Vegas 
Fury asks Zero Company where the Deathlok prototype is. 
Jack leaves Billys body and goes back into his own. 
Pg19-pg20: Las Vegas 
Deathlok(Jack Truman) gives the unconscious Billy to Fury and reports for duty using Morse code, since his voice box is damaged. 
Pg21-pg22: California 
The Clown robs a bar in Hollywood. 
Pg23: The Helicarrier 
Deathlok has been loaded onto the Helicarrier, and theyre ready to leave Las Vegas. 

References: 
All in one day, picking up from last issue. 

Deathlok v3 #4 is already in the MCP, but I guess I should note that it is the day following the events of Deathlok v3 #3, and it spans one day. Also, Deathlok V(Jack Truman/Agent 18) is not seen in the issue, but he is present on the Helicarrier, so he should receive a BTS for the issue. 

Rearranging events, heres the story: 

DLOK3 1-FB pg9pn5 
DLOK3 1-FB pg10pn5 
DLOK3 1-FB pg12pn2 
DLOK3 1-FB pg12pn4 
DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn2 shortly after C2 62 
DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn4 after some extechop experiments 
DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn5 a 'few days' before 'Day One' 
DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn7 the same day as pg3pn5 
DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn8 the same day as pg3pn7 
DLOK3 1 pg8-pg10, pg12 Day One, Billy remembers strange things 
DLOK3 1 pg15-pg17, pg21-pg22 Day Two, Jack realizes who/where he is. 
DLOK3 1 pg1-pg7, pg11, pg13-pg14, pg18-pg20, Day Three, Las Vegas, early morning before sunrise(shortly after X '99) 
DLOK3 2 Day Three, day into night 
DLOK3 3 Day Three, night 
DLOK3 4 Day Four 

Since Deathlok V is Jack Trumans body, and Jack Trumans psyche is in Billy, hes appearing in two different places concurrently. Theyre all in the same issues, so that makes things easier. 

Here are some chronology placement suggestions: 

Fury, Col. Nicholas Nick Joseph 
 
UX 371 
X 91 
X '99 
*DLOK3 1 
*DLOK3 2 
*DLOK3 3 
DLOK3 4 
H3 10 
 

Dugan, Timothy Aloyisious Cadwallader Dum Dum 
 
PUN3 1 
*DLOK3 1-FB pg9pn5 
H2 437 
 
(side note: Theres really nothing to place this FlashBack anywhere, so Ive opted to place it after Nick Fury was killed by the Punisher, and Dum Dum was the unofficial director of SHIELD) 

Young, Lawrence 
C2 60 
*DLOK3 1 
*DLOK3 2 
*DLOK3 3 

Clown/Crafty Eliot Franklin 
 
H2 471 
*DLOK3 2 
*DLOK3 3 
DLOK3 4 

Agent 18/Jack Truman 
*DLOK3 1-FB pg9pn5 
*DLOK3 1-FB pg10pn5 
*DLOK3 1-FB pg12pn2 
*DLOK3 1-FB pg12pn4 
C2 58-BTS 
{C2 59} 
C2 60 
C2 61 
C2 62 
See Deathlok V/Jack Truman 

Deathlok V/Jack Truman 
from Agent 18/Jack Truman 
*DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn2 
*DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn4 
*DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn5 
*DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn7 
*DLOK3 2-FB pg3pn8 
{UX 371} 
X 91 
X '99 
*DLOK3 1 
*DLOK3 2 
*DLOK3 3 
*DLOK3 4-BTS 

Coming soon: Deathlok v3 5-11!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 96

Posted: 01 Jan 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Young Avengers Special
By Somebody

Young Avengers Special 
Written by Allen Heinberg, art by various. 

Framing sequences are set between YA8 & 9, all recordable flashbacks are set before YA1 with one notable exception on p14. They're all loosely autumnal, but there's very little discernable background to tell. 

p1 - Kat Farrell tries to get Jessica Jones to bring her the YAs for an interview for before she goes to get them, with the implied threat of blowing the YAs' IDs if they don't 

p2 - Cassie Lang (Stature) and Jones are talking in a diner, day, about Kat's threat. A padded jacket's hanging beside Cassie. Jones says she doesn't have to talk to her - she could always retire. Cassie says that's not an option, cue FB 

p3 (FB, day of YA1/2) - Cassie's at Stark Enterprises, trying to talk to Tony Stark (for at least the second day in a row). 

p4 (FB cont) - Her mum catches her, Cassie says she wants to know how her dad died, her mum says Stark would have returned her calls/e-mails/etc if he wanted to talk to her. 

There's an... oddity at best... on this page, as Cassie is shown to grow & shrink during her argument with her mum but neither of them notice. 

p5-6 (FB cont) - Cassie's jerk stepdad cop turns up, orders Cassie to go to school, Cassie says not until she talks to Stark and the receptionist calls over to say he wants her to know. Blake orders her again, she says he's not her dad & starts ranting about how her dad was a felon, and the argument ends with Cassie's mum slapping her in the face. She runs out... to face three of her stepdad's fellow cops. 

p7 (FB) - later that night, she's packing her bags and sneaking out, when she sees her parents watching something about the YAs in the church (from YA1). The rest of the page is a copy/pasted/flipped panel from YA2 and a pinup of the Cassie, Patriot, Hulkling, Asgardian/Wiccan and Kate in their YA1-6 costumes, which I'm not treating as a chronologisable panel. 

p8 - Cassie says to Jones that, if she hadn't seen the YA report, she'd have gone to LA to find the Runaways she'd read about (placing it after Run v1 #17/18, but we knew that already), and that even if the YAs fold, she'll keep being a superhero - she never had and never wants a "normal life" 

p9 - in a park later the same day, autumnal hues, Teddy/Hulkling's talking to Jones (Wiccan's there too). 

p10 (FB, pre-YA1) He talks about how it was always painfully obvious he was different since he could shapeshift. One day, he told his best friend - the basketball captain Greg Norris - about his powers. 

p11, panels 1&2 (FB) - Random incidents, with Hulking saying there was nothing they couldn't do as long as he pretended to be (pnl1) Johnny Storm, (pnl2) the Hulk,... 

p11, pnls 3-5 (FB cont) ...or Tony Stark. Day of Avengers Finale, Iron Man announcing on TV, Cap and Beast behind him (I this is copy/pasted from Finale itself) that the Avengers had disbanded. Greg proposes to "Mr Stark" that they go to the wrecked mansion. 

p12 (FB cont) they get in, and as he reverts to his base form and reveals his super-strength to Greg for the first time in moving the wrecked Quinjet to let them in (Greg's shocked he didn't tell him, asking him what else he , Hulking thought he had) 

p13, p14 pnls 1-3 (FB cont) - Greg proposes nicking a picture of Mar-Vell and Rick Jones (and others not shown) and Hulkling threatens him to make him put them down. His present-narration says he couldn't pretend to be the same as everyone else any more, as Iron Lad walks in in the flasback. 

p14, pnl 4 (FB, between YA 6 & 7) Flashback to the fight with Shocker, the aftermath of which we saw on a newspaper picture in YA7. 

p15-16 (FB, pre-Disassembled) - Billy/Wiccan gets asked for his story. He was standing outside Avengers Mansion after getting whacked by a bully ("Kesler"), with a black eye and other bruising, when the Scarlet Witch ("you're my favourite Avenger") asks him if he's all right. She tells him to stand his ground and be himself, then heals him (and more?) and kisses him on the cheek. 

p17-18 (FB, next day) - He manages to dodge Kesler the next day, but catches him beating someone else up. When he's about to get pummelled, his lightning powers kick in, but out of control and he nearly kills Kesler before running away. 

p19 (FB) - He's standing outside the destroyed Mansion - the strong implication from the narration is that the day in p17-18 was the day of A500/etc, and I've placed the Witch's appearance just before the flashback with the Wasp in A503 as the path of least resistance since she looks and sounds perfectly sane in p15-16 - and Iron Lad turns up to recruit him. The last panel is him, in his Asgardian costume, flying above Iron Lad, Hulkling and Patriot (all in original costumes). 

p20 - Wiccan says that if Kat's going to do the story anyway, they may as well give her the real story - and if asked, they say'll confirm that they're a couple as Jones walks away. 

p21 - Jones is talking to Kate Bishop now, who's not sure about it. 

p22 (FB) - Kate and her sister are preparing for the wedding in YA1, Kate wants them to have a cheap wedding and donate the other money to charity, her sister won't hear of it but says that if Kate "actually want[s] to spend the rest of [her] life in soup kitchens and women's shelters", as opposed to doing it to copy their recently-deceased mum, she'll support her. 

p23, pnls 1-4 (FB) - Kate's walking home through a park - while her narration talks about, no matter how good your grades are or how many hours you spend in a soup kitchen, that bad things that you can't control happen - when she's grabbed and raped. 

p23 pnl 5, p24 (FB) - the narration continues, over a montage of her huddled in bed, then talking to a therapist, then a panel of her aiming a bow in her makeshift YA4-6 costume - that you can let the bad things destroy you, or learn from them so you'll be prepared and make sure that "what happened to you never happens to anyone else", then over a panel with her Iron Lad, Patriot, Hulking and Asgardian behind her, "if you're very lucky, you won't have to do it alone" 

p24 - finishing off, Jones refers obliquely to the Purple Man arc in Alias, and that if her daughter's anything like Kate, she'll consider herself lucky over a panel of Kate crying. 

p25 - Jones is now talking to Eli/Patriot, who's saying he's not a Young Avenger any more, and Jones mentions rumours about the events of YA7-8 as to Kat wanting to know why. 

p26-28 (FB) - Eli was walking with Isaiah, his grandad, when a gang taunts them about the "black Cap", smashes a bottle over Isaiah's head and punches Eli in the stomach, after which Eli charges after them, runs into a pair of MGH dealers who talk him into buying some - "just because the old man's powerless doesn't mean you have to be." 

p29 (FB) later the same day, Eli's filled with doubt over his grandfather being "the black Captain America" while his grandmother says Isaiah has nothing to prove, to him or otherwise, while Isaiah looks in the window. 

p30-32 (FB) Eli joins his "grandpa" on the terrace, and asks if he wants "to play some ball." Cut to a short time later, Isaiah throws the ball into some woods with brown leaves (although the sky is also gold), and Eli goes to fetch it "again". The gang's there, but before Eli gets his MGH pills, his grandad disposes of them, reaffiming Eli's faith in him - and, over a panel of the YA founders, that he wanted to carry on his legacy. 

p33 - They talk about his "mistake" (the MGH), and he ducks out of talking to Kat by saying he's got a history paper to finish. 

p34 - As Kat is told that Patriot's not attending by Jones, the other four turn up in costume on one of Wiccan's glowing platforms. 

p35, pnls 1-3 - Jones and Luke Cage talk about the kids. 

p35, pnls 3-4 - as a young (no mask), depressed-looking Kang watches and listens on a monitor... I can only presume this is pre his debut as Rama-Tut until proven otherwise, although whether that can be made to work I don't know. I expect this to be followed up on though. 


Listings: 

BISHOP, KATE 
YAS1-FB 
YA1 
[...] 
YA6 
YAS1-FB 
YA7 
YA8 
YAS1 

HULKLING/TEDDY ALTMAN 
YAS1-FB 
YA1 
[...] 
YA6 
YAS1-FB 
YA7 
YA8 
YAS1 

PATRIOT II/ELI BRADLEY 
YAS1-FB 
YA1 
[...] 
YA6 
YAS1-FB 
YA7 
YA8 
YAS1 

STATURE/CASSIE LANG 
[...] 
[Disassembled] 
YAS1-FB 
YA2 
[...] 
YA6 
YAS1-FB 
YA7 
YA8 
YAS1 

WICCAN/BILLY KAPLAN/ASGARDIAN (as a name, not a native of Asgard) 
YAS1-FB 
YA1 
[...] 
YA6 
YAS1-FB 
YA7 
YA8 
YAS1 

IRON LAD/NATHANIEL RICHARDS 
[What If: Timequake] 
YA2-FB 
YAS1-FB 
YA8-FB 
YAS1-FB (YAS1-FB/YA8-FB/YAS1-FB are recruitment scenes for the YAs, with only IL and Asgardian/Hulkling/Patriot present. The order here is arbitary.) 
YA1 
[...] 
YA6 
[?] 
(below as Kang the Conqueror) 
YAS1 

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF 
[...] 
YAS1-FB 
A503-FB 
[...] 


LANG, PEGGY (should be BURDICK, PEGGY LANG) 
A3 76 
[?] 
YAS1-FB 
YA7 
[...] 

BURDICK, BLAKE 
A3 62 
A3 76? 
[?] 
YAS1-FB 
YA7 
[...] 

BRADLEY, FAITH 
[...] 
YAS1-FB 
YA7 
YA8 

BRADLEY, ISAIAH 
[...] 
YAS1-FB 
YA7 
YA8 

SHOCKER/HERMAN SCHULTZ 
[...] 
YAS1-FB 
YA7-FB (newspaper picture) 

(sister of Kate Bishop - I can't see a first or married name for her yet, but for when she has one...) 
YAS1-FB 
YA1 

FARRELL, KAT 
[...] 
YAS1 
[...] 

JONES, JESSICA 
[...] 
YAS1 
[...] 

CAGE, LUKE/CARL LUCAS 
[...] 
YAS1 
[...]

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 11:04 am    
By jephyork
Director

So, the TV segment on p.11, announcing the disbanding of the Avengers, is cribbed word-for-word from "Finale"? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 11:42 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I thought that Vision had some sort of failsafe program that would seek out the next wave of Avengers? This issue seems to suggest Iron Lad merely stumbled across the others, when they were lurking around the ruins of Avengers mansion. 

Quote: 
>>>
p17-18 (FB, next day) - He manages to dodge Kesler the next day, but catches him beating someone else up. When he's about to get pummelled, his lightning powers kick in, but out of control and he nearly kills Kesler before running away.  
<<<

Actually, the way the scene was written suggested that he avoided the bully over several days, (probably even weeks) so that's when the bully found a new punching bag. It just feels like there's a passage of time in this flashback sequence. I had thought that Wiccan's meeting up with the Scarlet Witch happened back when Wanda was a bit more sane, (some time during the Chuck Austen or Geoff Johns run on Avengers). But I suppose the timeline of events in Wiccan's flashback could be condensed if needed.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 12:36 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So, the TV segment on p.11, announcing the disbanding of the Avengers, is cribbed word-for-word from "Finale"? 
<<<

Emmm... I'm fairly sure (the picture on the TV screen in question is certainly cribbed), but I did this because I couldn't sleep and couldn't be bothered hoiking up A:F from whatever hole I dropped it in.

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 09:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Emmm... I'm fairly sure (the picture on the TV screen in question is certainly cribbed), but I did this because I couldn't sleep and couldn't be bothered hoiking up A:F from whatever hole I dropped it in. 
<<<

The scene on the TV immediately follows the end of FINALE; it's new material and counts as separate entries in the chronologies for Cap, Iron Man, Beast, and (don't forget) Wasp.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 97

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 06:15 am    Post subject: Deathlok v3 5-11
By Col_Fury

Deathlok v3 #5 
Reconstructive Perjury 
W: Joe Casey 
D: Leonardo Manco 
Published: January 2000 

Appearances: 
Deathlok V(Jack Truman), Col. Nick Fury, Carla, Sen. Healey, Ringmaster II(Maynard Tiboldt/Martin Thraller). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: Helicarrier 
SHIELDs extechop division begins upgrades on Deathlok. 
Pg7: FB 
A pre-teen Jack Truman builds a fort with some friends. 
Pg8: Helicarrier 
More upgrades 
Pg9pn1-pn3: Helicarrier 
Nick Fury records his recollections of Jack Truman 
Pg9pn4: FB 
A 17 year old Jack Truman on the national track team. 
Pg9pn5: Helicarrier 
Nick continues his recording. 
Pg9pn6: FB 
A 18 year old Jack Truman enlists in the Army. 
Pg9pn7(of 7): Helicarrier 
Nick continues his recording. 
Pg10pn1: FB 
Jack Truman goes through SHIELD training. 
Pg10pn2: Helicarrier 
Nick continues his recording. 
Pg10pn3: FB 
Jack Truman on a solo SHIELD mission. 
Pg10pn4: Helicarrier 
Nick continues his recording. 
Pg10pn5: FB 
Recaps Cable 59-62, no new information. 
Pg10pn6(of 6)-pg11: Helicarrier 
Fury deletes the recording and is reminded by Carla, his new appointments secretary, of a fund-raising dinner in Washington tonight. 
Pg12-pg15: Helicarrier 
More upgrades, Jack hallucinates. 
Pg16-pg17: Washington, evening 
Fury meets Sen. Healey at the fund-raiser, and is hypnotized by Martin Thraller.(later revealed as the Ringmaster) Thraller is going to run for President for the Utilitarian Party. 
Pg18-pg22: Helicarrier 
The upgrades are finished, and Deathlok is given a new flesh-like skin. 

References: 
All in one day, some time after issue #4. 

Deathlok v3 #6 
Disaster Bay 
W: Joe Casey 
D: Matt Smith 
Published: January 2000 

Appearances: 
Deathlok V(Jack Truman), Mr. Postal, Darwin, Spandell, Claymore, Miguel Mezro. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: Helicarrier 
Mr. Postal informs Jack of a briefing at 0400 hours. He finishes spraying on some skin and reports in. He meets his new teammates Darwin, Spandell, and Claymore, all cyborgs. Mr. Postal briefs them on their mission: assassinate Miguel Mezro. They get in a plane and leave. 
Pg5-pg13: El Corazon de la Muerte, night 
Theyre dropped off and meet their contacts. On the way to the capital, theyre ambushed. They fight off the attackers but Darwin and most of the contact team is killed. Theyre attacked again by hover-droids, , and now only Deathlok, Spandell, and Claymore are left alive. They decide to investigate a factory instead of going to the capital. 
Pg14-pg21pn4: The factory, one hour later 
They enter the factory and kill everyone but Mezro. Deathlok destroys a giant robot, Spandell dies, Claymore is cut in half, and Deathlok finds out that the factory was built by extechop. Deathlok carries Claymores torso out a destroys the factory. 
Pg21pn5-pn6(of 6): Hours later, after midnight 
Claymore dies. 
Pg22: Helicarrier 
Deathlok goes AWOL from SHIELD. 

References: 
A crescent quarter waning moon is seen lots of times over the island. 

Fury is mentioned as absent in the issue, setting up the Fury has gone missing plot picked up a few issues later. Hes not seen, and when asked where Fury is, Deathlok is basically told None of your business. As far as I can tell, that doesnt qualify as a BTS. 

Deathlok v3 #7 
Super Deluxe 
W: Joe Casey 
D: Eric Canete 
Published: January 2000 

Appearances: 
Deathlok V(Jack Truman), Lillian Truman, Puff Adder, Black Mamba(Tanya Sealy). 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg22: Los Angeles 
Jack is in Los Angeles to visit his sister, who sets him up on a date with her friend Tanya. Tanya turns out to be Black Mamba and Jack gets in a fight with Puff Adder. When he gets back to Lillians place, she kicks him out. 

References: 
All in one day, and a crescent quarter waning moon is seen over L.A. 

Jack mentions that he hasnt been hungry for months, meaning hes been in a robot body for months. Therefore, Deathlok v3 #7 is months after Deathlok v3 #4. 

Deathlok v3 #8 
Primary Actions pt 1 
Random Access 
W: Joe Casey 
D: Leonardo Manco 
Published: March 2000 

Appearances: 
Deathlok V(Jack Truman), Dum Dum Dugan, Ringmaster II(Maynard Tiboldt/Martin Thraller), Sen. Healey, George Torrance, Clown(Crafty Eliot Franklin), Mr. Kim, Armbruster, Col. Nick Fury. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: L.A., night 
Dum Dum informs Jack that Nick Fury has been missing, and he wants Jack to find him. 
Pg4-pg6: Thrallers office, daytime 
Ringmaster talks to Sen. Healey on the phone about campaign tactics. Afterwards, he hypnotizes his secretary. 
Pg7-pg8: L.A. SHIELD branch facility 
Dum Dum briefs Jack on the details of finding Fury. 
Pg9-pg10: Homeless shelter, daytime 
On the campaign trail, Ringmaster meets his primaries opponent George Torrance. 
Pg11-pg13: SHIELD safehouse, L.A., night 
Jack downloads information regarding the whereabouts of Fury. 
Pg14-pg16: Hollywood, night 
Mr. Kim hires the Clown to kill Doyle, a new crime boss in the area. 
Pg17-pg18: L.A., night 
Jack meets Armbruster, an undercover SHIELD agent who will get Jack into Doyles gang, because all clues point to this new guy named Doyle 
Pg19: Public access cable show, daytime 
Ringmaster makes a TV appearance, furthering his campaign. 
Pg20-pg22: L.A., night 
Jack is being enlisted into Doyles gang. Thats when Jack realizes Doyle is Fury! 

References: 
Sen. Healey tells Ringmaster that hell be back on Monday. Ringmaster is in his office, so its a weekday, probably a Thursday or Friday. That most likely means that at least a week passed between pg6 & pg9, if not more. 

Doyle has made a reputation for himself in just a few short weeks. So Fury has been in L.A. for at least three weeks, putting about a month between Deathlok v3 #5 and Deathlok v3 #8 pg17. 

Armbruster tells Jack that hell get his name on the street over the next week, so there are at least 7 or 8 days between pg18 & pg20. 

A full moon is seen over L.A. on pg20. 

Since Fury was hypnotized in issue 5, he shouldnt have any appearances between Deathlok v3 #5 and Deathlok v3 #8. 

Deathlok v3 #9 
Primary Actions pt 2 
the Jones 
W: Joe Casey 
D: Leonardo Manco 
Published: April 2000 

Appearances: 
Deathlok V(Jack Truman), Col. Nick Fury, Ringmaster II(Maynard Tiboldt/Martin Thraller), George Torrance, Princess Python, Clown(Crafty Eliot Franklin). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: L.A., continuing from last issue 
Fury gives his crime gang orders, then Jack goes back to his safehouse and thinks. 
Pg3-pg4: New Hampshire Utilitarian Primaries Debate 
George Torrance and Ringmaster debate on live TV. 
Pg5-pg6: L.A., night 
Another gang meeting, Fury recruits Jack for their next heist. 
Pg7-pg8: New Hampshire, 3:00 AM 
Princess Python extorts Ringmaster, he tells her about his plan to hypnotize America through the television. 
Pg9-pg10: Hollywood, night 
The Clown prepares to kill Doyle. 
Pg11-pg22: L.A., Long Beach 
The heist! Deathlok gasses Doyle, which makes him remember that hes Nick Fury. But when everything looks to be OK, the Clown attacks! 

References: 
Ringmaster mentions on pg8 that Super Tuesday is approaching, which happens to be the first Tuesday in March. 

Deathlok v3 #10 
Primary Actions pt 3 
the Weight 
W: Joe Casey 
D: John Buscema 
I: Tom Palmer 
Published: May 2000 

Appearances: 
Deathlok V(Jack Truman), Col. Nick Fury, Clown(Crafty Eliot Franklin), Ringmaster II (Maynard Tiboldt/Martin Thraller), Dennis Dubois, Sen. Healey. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Long Beach, continuing from last issue 
Deathlok and Clown fight while Fury watches. 
Pg6: Campaign office, night 
Dennis Dubois(the new campaign manager) gives a speech. 
Pg7-pg8: Hotel, night 
Ringmaster, Healey, and Dubois talk about the polls. 
Pg9-pg14: Long Beach, night 
The fight ends when the Clown runs over Deathlok with a truck. 
Pg15-pg18pn4: On the campaign trail, daytime 
Ringmaster makes more public appearances, sees a newspaper about him evading taxes. He talks to the journalist who wrote the article. 
Pg18pn5(of 5)-pg19pn1: The paper retracts its statement, the Thraller party celebrates. 
Pg19pn2-pg19pn5(of 5): Press conference, next day 
Ringmaster gets ready to hypnotize people on live TV, practicing for when hell try for the whole country. 
Pg20-pg21: Helicarrier, night 
Fury uses a Memory Chamber while Dum Dum and Deathlok watch. Fury now remembers that Thraller hypnotized him. 
Pg22: Hollywood 
The Clown sees Ringmaster on TV, wants revenge. 

References: 
Super Tuesday has already happened as of pg6. 

Deathlok v3 #11 
Primary Actions pt 4 
Follow Those Agonies 
W: Joe Casey 
D: Leonardo Manco 
Published: June 2000 

Appearances: 
Deathlok V(Jack Truman), Clown(Crafty Eliot Franklin), Col. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Ringmaster II(Maynard Tiboldt/Martin Thraller), Dennis Dubois, Carla, Lawrence Young. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: Hollywood, continuing from last issue 
The Clown is still watching Ringmaster on TV. 
Pg2: Press Conference, night 
What Clown is watching, but not on TV. 
Pg3: Helicarrier, night 
Fury, Deathlok, and Dum Dum watch the same thing that the Clown is on TV. 
Pg4: New York, the next day 
Ringmaster and Dubois talk about tomorrows convention. 
Pg5: New York 
The Clown gets ready to kill Ringmaster. 
Pg6: a Manhattan health club 
Fury and Dum Dum brief Deathlok while in a steam room. 
Pg7-pg8: Jacks place, that night 
Jack tries to get some sleep, but hallucinates instead. 
Pg9-pg20: Madison Square Garden 
As Ringmaster starts the convention, the Clown attacks! He shoots Ringmaster, Deathlok lets him go, and Fury cleans up. 
Pg21: Helicarrier, the next day, daytime 
Fury and Dum Dum watch the news. Thraller is dead, Ringmaster is going to Seagate. But wheres Deathlok? 
Pg22-pg24: A bar in New York, night 
Jack Truman switches bodies with Larry Young. 

References: 
Now that Larry Young is in the Deathlok robot, he should be listed as Deathlok VI, and Jack should be listed as Jack Truman/Lawrence Young. 

For those interested in such things, heres a temporal reference breakdown: 

DLOK3 5- all in one day, sometime after DLOK3 4 
DLOK3 6 pg1-pg21pn4- one day, sometime after DLOK3 5 
DLOK3 6 pg21pn5-pg22-the day after DLOK3 6 pg21pn4 
DLOK3 7- the day after DLOK3 pg22 according to moon phases, months after DLOK3 4 
DLOK3 8 pg1-pg3- one night 
DLOK3 8 pg4-pg6- one day, Thursday? 
DLOK3 8 pg7-pg8- a day or two after DLOK3 8 pg3 
DLOK3 8 pg9-pg18- the day after DLOK3 8 pg8, a week or so after DLOK3 8 pg6, and about a month after DLOK3 5 
DLOK3 8 pg19- one day 
DLOK3 8 pg20-pg22- a week or so after DLOK3 8 pg18 
DLOK3 9 pg1-pg2- the same day as DLOK3 8 pg22 
DLOK3 9 pg3-pg4- one day 
DLOK3 9 pg5-pg6- one night 
DLOK3 9 pg7-pg8- 3:00 AM, in the late February/early March 
DLOK3 9 pg9-pg22- one day, mid March 
DLOK3 10 pg1-pg14- same day as DLOK3 9 pg22 
DLOK3 10 pg15-pg18pn4- one day, shortly after DLOK3 10 pg14 
DLOK3 10 pg18pn5-pg19pn1- the day after DLOK3 10 pg18pn4 
DLOK3 10 pg19pn2-pg22- the day after DLOK3 10 pg19pn1 
DLOK3 11 pg1-pg3- the same day as DLOK3 10 pg22 
DLOK3 11 pg4-pg8- the day after DLOK3 11 pg3 
DLOK3 11 pg9-pg20- the day after DLOK3 11 pg 8 
DLOK3 11 pg21-pg24- the day after DLOK3 11 pg20 

Here are some chronology placement suggestions: 

Princess Python/Zelda 
 
H2 471 
*DLOK3 9 

Black Mamba/Tanya Sealy 
 
CA 411 
*DLOK3 7 
TB 64 
 

Puff Adder 
 
CA 437 
*DLOK3 7 

Clown/Crafty Eliot Franklin 
 
H2 471 
DLOK3 2 
DLOK3 3 
DLOK3 4 
*DLOK3 8 
*DLOK3 9 
*DLOK3 10 
*DLOK3 11 

Ringmaster II/Maynard Tiboldt 
 
H2 470 
*DLOK3 5 
*DLOK3 8 
*DLOK3 9 
*DLOK3 10 
*DLOK3 11 
DD2 20-BTS 
 

Dugan, Timothy Aloyisious Cadwallader 'Dum Dum' 
 
H3 8 
*DLOK3 8 
*DLOK3 11 
CA3 24 
 

Agent 18/Jack Truman 
*DLOK3 5-FB pg7 
*DLOK3 5-FB pg9pn4 
*DLOK3 5-FB pg9pn6 
*DLOK3 5-FB pg10pn1 
*DLOK3 5-FB pg10pn3 
DLOK3 1-FB pg9pn5 
DLOK3 1-FB pg10pn5 
DLOK3 1-FB pg12pn2 
DLOK3 1-FB pg12pn4 
C2 58-BTS 
 

Deathlok V/Jack Truman 
 
DLOK3 3 
DLOK3 4-BTS 
*DLOK3 5 
*DLOK3 6 
*DLOK3 7 
*DLOK3 8 
*DLOK3 9 
*DLOK3 10 
*DLOK3 11 pg23 
see Truman, Jack/Lawrence Young 

Truman, Jack/Lawrence Young 
from Deathlok V/Jack Truman 
*DLOK3 11 pg24 

Young, Lawrence 
 
DLOK3 3 
*DLOK3 11 pg22 
see Deathlok VI/Lawrence Young 

Deathlok VI/Lawrence Young 
from Young, Lawrence 
*DLOK3 11 pg23 

Fury, Col. Nicholas Nick Joseph 
 
X '99 
DLOK3 1 
DLOK3 2 
DLOK3 3 
DLOK3 4 
*DLOK3 5 
*DLOK3 8 
*DLOK3 9 
*DLOK3 10 
*DLOK3 11 
H3 10 
H3 1/2 
 

Nicks chronology gets pretty tied up between CA3 and H3 after this. Before all of those Hulk issues seems to be the best place for Fury to go missing for a month or so
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 08:56 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for this analysis, Col_Fury. I've filed this for future reference, along with a ton of work by the ever-helpful Rob Gox. These will come in handy when I start fleshing out the calendar for the period just prior to the time covered by the current calendar. At first glance, your suggestion of calendar placement may indeed work out although that might involve some reshuffling of your proposed character chronologies (and those may be more critical). Too early to tell, but we are talking about the first half of Year 20.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 06:08 pm    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
At first glance, your suggestion of calendar placement may indeed work out although that might involve some reshuffling of your proposed character chronologies 
<<<

Yeah, it's a pretty tricky area for Fury and Dum Dum. What makes it even more confounding, is that those particular issues of Deathlok, Hulk, and Captain America were all published in the same months! We have Fury tied up with capturing the Hulk(and then attempting to clear his name through comics, of all things, before Hulk's trial), 'on undercover duty for too long' in Captain America and then finding Sharon Carter and dealing with all of that, and going missing for a month or so while brainwashed in Deathlok. Not to mention Doom's and Sue's wedding in FF3 27, and an odd Black Widow appearance or so. All at the same time! 

Quote: 
>>>
These will come in handy when I start fleshing out the calendar for the period just prior to the time covered by the current calendar. 
<<<

Let me know if you need any help with that. I know we're trying to concentrate on the current calendar for now, but I'm trying to look forward...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 06:50 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Let me know if you need any help with that.  
<<<

Will do. Thanks, Col_Fury.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 98

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 09:23 am    Post subject: Nextwave #1 (1st six pages)
By Chris McCarver

Thought I'd get a jump on this after seeing the first six pages at Comic Book Resources: 

NEXTWAVE #1 (NWAVE 1) 

Appearances: 
ANGER, DIRK (first appearance) 
BLOODSTONE, ELSA 
CAPTAIN/ (first appearance) 
MACHINE MAN/X-51/"AARON STACK" 
PHOTON/MONICA RAMBEAU 
Five H.A.T.E. recruits and a voice over the Aeromarine's intercom 

Pages 1-2: 
DAY 1 - ABCESS, NORTH DAKOTA - DAYTIME 
The Captain (first appearance) and Elsa are spending time at an outdoor cafe observing a structure being built outside by the Beyond Corporation, wherein the Captain shares the story of his failed career as a superhero, including an anecdote involving being severly beaten by Captain America for being called "Captain ****." Per intelligence from Monica Rambeau and Aaron Stack, the Beyond structure is a cover for unearthing a "buried biological weapon of mass destruction." 

Pages 3-4: 
DAY 1 - H.A.T.E. AEROMARINE - DAYTIME 
H.A.T.E. director Dirk Anger (first listed appearance) scares the holy crapsicles out of a quintet of new recruits, wherein he states he is 90 years old as a result of life-extension drugs. A voice on the intercom tells Anger they've located the "Shockwave Rider," after which Anger leaves the recruits for the Aeromarine's communications room. 

Page 5 (panels 1-2): 
DAY 1 - H.A.T.E. AEROMARINE COMM ROOM - DAYTIME 
Anger uses the "Etheric Loop Recall Televocometer" (which looks like a laughingly huge analog phone receiver) to contact the Shockwave Rider. 

Page 5 (panel 3)-Page 6: 
DAY 1 - SHOCKWAVE RIDER - DAYTIME 
Aboard the Shockwave Rider, an experimental aircraft stolen by Aaron and Monica after (according to Anger) Nextwave "abandoned their posts", Dirk and Monica share heated dialogue over Monica's discovery that H.A.T.E is funded by the Beyond Corporation, which was once a terrorist cell called S.I.L.E.N.T. Monica then reveals to Dirk that she and Aaron discovered Beyond's marketing plan. 

To be continued when the issue hits the shelves... 

REFERENCES: 
In her entry in X-MEN: THE 198 FILES, Tabitha Smith's affiliation with H.A.T.E. is documented, which could place NWAVE 1 after M-Day, since Tabitha's file was created to document the current status and threat potential of still-powered mutants and the Nextwave team are no longer attached to H.A.T.E. as of this issue.
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 12:25 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Wow -- when I saw the thread title, I was all set to post and say "maybe you ought to wait until the first arc is over, so you can analyze it as a whole". But who would have guessed you'd only analyze the first six PAGES?  

Creative, certainly. But maybe you oughtta wait until the arc's over.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 01:10 pm    
By Chris McCarver

Fair enough, just thought I'd get opening thoughts down while they were fresh in my mind. Very much at WIP status at this stage. 
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 04:52 pm    
By ADMINSTRATOR

Thread subject changed, to reflect that it's an incomplete analysis. 


watching: situation room

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Thread 99

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 09:42 am    Post subject: Annex #1-4
By jannepie

Even though no one asked for it, here's my analysis for Annex #1-4. You can find credits and summaries of the events in the summary I did for Comixfan. 

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=37273 

ANNEX #1 (August 1994) 

The events take place during one evening. 

Annex 
Barto, Dr. Hillman 
Barto, Marjorie (Hillmans wife, first appearance) 
Barto, Melody (Hillmans daughter, first appearance) 
Brace (first appearance) 
Brown, Kenny (Daily Bugle reporter, first appearance) 
Galloway, Janet 
Jameson, J. Jonah 
Spider-Man I 

Flashback p8p7-p9p1 Barto makes a deal with Adarco 

Barto, Dr. Hillman 
Dunson, Abner 
Galloway, Janet 

ANNEX #2 (September 1994) 

Continues directly from #1, same night. 

Annex 
Barto, Dr. Hillman 
Barto, Melody 
Brace 
Brown, Kenny 
Galloway, Janet 

Bartos neighbours (Harvey Benson, Jennifer, Jeremy, Tim) 

Flashback p8p2-p9p2 The origin of Brace 

Brace 

ANNEX #3 (October 1994) 

Continues directly from #2, same night. Jameson has some Spider-Man photos taken somewhere in Spectacular Spider-Man (1st series) #215-216, where Spidey is hitting some overweight man. Adarco has some technology acquired from A.R.M.S. in Spider-Man #43. Its a few months after Annex fought RenTech in Spider-Man Unlimited (1st series) #3. 

Annex 
Barto, Dr. Hillman 
Barto, Marjorie 
Barto, Melody 
Brace 
Brown, Kenny 
Galloway, Janet 
Jameson, J. Jonah 
Robertson, Joe 
Spider-Man I 

Member of A.I.M., man wearing Platoon armor (Platoon A-1), Adarco (company; James, Joe, John, Robert) 

ANNEX #4 (November 1994) 

p1-p22 Continues directly from #3, same night. 

Annex 
Barto, Dr. Hillman (dies) 
Brace (apparently dies) 
Brown, Kenny 
Galloway, Janet (apparently dies) 
Spider-Man I 

Member of A.I.M., Platoon A-1, Adarco (Executive Board) 

p23 Bartos funeral 

Annex 
Barto, Marjorie 
Barto, Melody 


So the main story takes only one night. Bartos funeral is held sometime later but the only problem is to place the guest stars (Spidey, Jameson, Robertson) appearances. As said in #3, they become after PPTSS #215-216, S-M 43 & ASMU 3. I dont think that Platoon appearing here is the same as in S-M 41-42, but just one of the people wearing Platoon armor and working for Adarco. Why else call him Platoon A-1? 

ANNEX/ALEX ELLIS 
ASM@ 27-FB 
ASM@ 27 
ASMU 3/3 
*ANNEX 1 
*ANNEX 2 
*ANNEX 3 
*ANNEX 4 

BARTO, DR. HILLMAN 
*ANNEX 1-FB 
ASM@ 27-FB 
ASM@ 27 
ASMU 3/3 
*ANNEX 1 
*ANNEX 2 
*ANNEX 3 
*ANNEX 4 

**BARTO, MARJORIE 
ANNEX 1 
ANNEX 3 
ANNEX 4 

**BARTO, MELODY 
ANNEX 1 
ANNEX 2 
ANNEX 3 
ANNEX 4 

**BRACE 
ANNEX 2-FB 
ANNEX 1 
ANNEX 2 
ANNEX 3 
ANNEX 4 

**BROWN, KENNY 
ANNEX 1 
ANNEX 2 
ANNEX 3 
ANNEX 4 

DUNSON, ABNER 
*ANNEX 1-FB 
ASM@ 27 

**GALLOWAY, JANET 
ANNEX 1-FB 
ANNEX 1 
ANNEX 2 
ANNEX 3 
ANNEX 4 

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
*ANNEX 1 
*ANNEX 3 

ROBERTSON, JOE 
*ANNEX 3 

SPIDER-MAN I 
*ANNEX 1 
*ANNEX 3 
*ANNEX 4

			*	*	*

Thread 100

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 05:19 am    Post subject: X-23 1-6
By Col_Fury

X-23 #1 
Innocence Lost pt 1 
W: Craig Kyle & Christopher Yost 
D: Billy Tan 
Published: March, 2005 

Appearances: 
Weapon X(Wolverine/Logan), Dale Rice, Dr. Zander Rice, Dr. Martin Sutter, Rachel Sutter, Dr. Sarah Kinney, X-23(Laura Kinney). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Weapon X compound, Canada 
A nearly naked Weapon X is killing everyone as spy Dale Rice attempts to escape with some files and genetic samples of Weapon X. As he goes outside, he too is killed by Weapon X. Weapon X runs off into the Canadian wilderness 
Pg4: Weapon X compound, the next day 
Dr. Marin Sutter arrives by helicopter and retrieves the files, genetic sample, and Dales dog tags from Dales corpse. 
Pg5: the home of Dale Rice 
Martin informs a young Zander Rice that his dad is dead, and gives him the dog tags. 
Pg6-pg10: the Facility, years later 
Now a doctor, Zander loses a patient. On his way to Martin to request specimens that can survive the bonding process, he passes Rachel Sutter. In Martins office, he meets Dr. Sarah Kinney the leading authority on mutant genetics. Shes here to clone the genetic sample from Weapon X, Zander isnt thrilled at the news. 
As Martin gives Sarah a tour of the Facility, Zander reads her file. 
Pg10pn4: FB 
An eight year old Sarah is afraid of her approaching father. 
Pg11: the Facility, one day shortly after pg10 
Sarah and her team begin the process of reconstructing Weapon Xs DNA to clone him.(They must fix a damaged Y chromosome, which eventually proves difficult) 
Pg12pn1: pictorial representation of an embryo 
Pg12pn2: the Facility, one day 
The team works. 
Pg12pn3: pictorial representation of an embryo losing stability 
Pg12pn4: the Facility, one day 
The team works some more 
Pg12pn5: the Facility, one day 
Sarah begins to get frustrated. 
Pg12pn6: pictorial representation of an embryo dissolving 
Pg12pn7(of 7): the Facility, one day 
Zander is secretly pleased at Sarahs lack of progress. 
Pg13: the Facility, one night 
As Sarah tries to figure out other options, Zander and Rachel GET. IT. ON. 
Pg14-pg15: the Facility, one afternoon 
Sarah suggests that they clone a female, due to the damaged Y chromosome. Instead, why not duplicate the X? It would no longer be a clone technically, but still a genetic twin. Neither Martin nor Zander is very thrilled at the suggestion. 
Pg16pn1-pn2: the Facility, one day 
Sarah goes back to plan A. 
Pg16pn3: the Facility, one day 
Sarah ponders the possibilities 
Pg16pn4-pn5(of 5): the Facility, one day 
Sarah decides to go with plan B. 
Pg17pn1: the Facility, one day 
Sarah works alone on plan B. 
Pg17pn2: the Facility, one day 
Sarah works with the team on plan A. 
Pg17pn3-pn4: the Facility, one day 
Sarah works alone on plan B. 
Pg17pn5: the Facility, one day 
Sarah works with the team on plan A. 
Pg17pn6-pn7(of 7): the Facility, one day 
Sarah works alone on plan B. 
Pg18: the Facility, one night, weeks after pg17pn1 
Sarah succeeds in replicating the X chromosome. 
Pg19: the Facility, most likely the next day 
Sarah informs Martin and Zander of the viable DNA. Theyre not exactly pleased, but decide to proceed. Martin tells Zander to find a surrogate mother to carry the embryo to term. 
Pg20: the Facility, most likely that night 
Zander blackmails Sarah into being the surrogate mother. 
Pg21pn1: the Facility, one day 
They get an ultrasound of the fetus. 
Pg21pn2: the Facility, one day 
Sarah sleeps, about 4 or 5 months along. 
Pg21pn3: the Facility, one day 
More tests on the fetus, about 5 or 6 months along. 
Pg21pn4-pn6(of 6): the Facility, one day 
Sarah reads to the child shes carrying, about 8 months along. 
Pg22-pg23: the Facility, one day 
Sarah gives birth to X-23, Zander delivers. 

References: 
Green grass and trees at Dale Rices house on pg5. 

Orange leaves outside Martins window on pg7-pg8. 

Leaves on trees, but color is obscured outside Martins window on pg14. 

Orange leaves outside Martins window again on pg19. 

There were 22 failed attempts to clone a male, before Sarah decided to clone a female. Within weeks Sarah successfully reconstructed an X chromosome, without another male clone attempt. Therefore, each male cloning attempt took at least a month, if not longer, between tries. That would mean at least 22 months, or about two years, passed between pg11(when she started) and pg15(when she decided to go another route). 

X-23 #2 
Innocence Lost pt 2 
W: Craig Kyle & Christopher Yost 
D: Billy Tan 
Published: April, 2005 

Appearances: 
X-23(Laura Kinney), Dr. Sarah Kinney, Dr. Zander Rice, Dr. Martin Sutter, Rachel Sutter, Debbie, Megan, Kevin, Tanaka. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: the Facility, seven years later 
Tanaka begins to train X-23 in martial arts. 
Pg3-pg4: the Facility, one day 
Sarah, Martin, and Zander review X-23s training tapes and discuss her progress, when her mutation will manifest, and when to coat her claws with adamantium. They decide to wait on the adamantium until she hits puberty, but they will start training her in weapons use. 
Pg5-pg6: the Facility, one day 
X-23 is now being trained to use weapons, Sarah watches. Kevin tells her she has a phone call from her sister Debbie, who tells her that Sarah has a niece, Megan. 
Pg7-pg8: the Facility, one night 
Zander imagines what it was like for his dad to be killed by Weapon X, then Rachel tells him that shes pregnant, and that its his. Zander tells her to tell Martin that its his. 
Pg9: the Facility, one day 
Sarah reads to X-23 while Zander watches. 
Pg10-pg11: the Facility, one day 
Zander takes X-23 out of a training session and scolds Tanaka. 
Pg12-pg14: the Facility, most likely the same day 
Zander prepares to give X-23 radiation poisoning to trigger her mutation early. He pictures Weapon X, spits in X-23s face, then begins the procedure. Sarah approaches as it starts, but cant stop it. 
Pg15-pg16: the Facility, not long after, probably a day or two 
As Zander gets ready to remove and coat X-23s claws, Sarah tries to get Martin to remove Zander as surgeon, to which he refuses. 
Zander begins the process 
Pg17-pg18: the Facility, less than 24 hours later 
X-23 now has adamantium coated claws, and she has fully recovered. 
(Not seen: Each claw was sharpened while still attached, then removed and coated, then replaced surgically. All while she was awake, without anesthetic) 
Martin asks Zander how the trigger scent is coming, Zander says he has a test set for next week. 
Pg19: the Facility, one night the following week 
Zander puts the trigger scent on Tanakas sword. 
Pg20-pg22: the Facility, the next morning 
Tanaka begins the training session, but X-23 smell the trigger scent sending her into a berserker rage, and she kills him. 

References: 
Seven years later is most likely X-23s seventh birthday. 

Green leaves outside Debbies window in San Francisco on pg6. 

Pg19 is not seven days after pg18, its sometime in the following week. 

Zander pictures Weapon X killing his dad on pg7pn1, pn5, pn7(of 7), pg8pn2, pn3(of 6), & pg12pn3(of 5), but I dont think these are FlashBacks. Zander wasnt there so these cant be accurate, even though they seem to be. 

X-23 #3 
Innocence Lost pt 3 
W: Craig Kyle & Christopher Yost 
D: Billy Tan 
Published: April, 2005 

Appearances: 
X-23(Laura Kinney), Dr. Sarah Kinney, Dr. Zander Rice, Dr. Martin Sutter, Rachel Sutter, Henry Sutter, Kevin, Hammerhead, Hydra agent, Kingpin(Wilson Fisk), Red Skull II(Johann Schmidt), Arranger(Oswald R. Silkworth), Korean guy, Magneto(Magnus/Eric Lensherr), AIM agents, Scarecrow(Ebenezer Laughton), Dr. Doom(Victor Von Doom), Japanese guy, mustachioed guy w/ glasses, low-brow, big nosed guy, Mr. Sinister(Nathaniel Essex). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: the Facility, three years later 
X-23 gets the assignment for her field test. 
Pg2-pg8: Los Angeles Convention Center, most likely the next day 
X-23 kills presidential candidate Greg Johnson, his family, and his entire convention party, all in under nineteen minutes. 
Pg9: the Facility, same day 
Martin and Zander offer X-23s services to the highest bidder while X-23s field test hits the news. Bidders seen on screen are: Hammerhead, Hydra agent, Kingpin, Red Skull, Arranger, Korean guy, Magneto, AIM agents, Scarecrow, Dr. Doom, Japanese guy, mustachioed guy w/ glasses, low-brow, big nosed guy, and Mr. Sinister. 
Pg10-pg11: the Facility, an hour or so later 
Sarah and Rachel talk about Henry(Rachels son) when Zander comes in. Sarah leaves, Zander brushes Rachel off, who wanted to talk about their situation. 
Pg12-pg13: the Facility, one day 
Sarah wants to read to X-23, but is interrupted by an assignment for X-23. 
Pg14pn1: Saudi Arabia, one day 
X-23 kills royalty. 
Pg14pn2: Las Vegas, one night 
X-23 kills a godfather. 
Pg14pn3(of 3): Colombia, one day 
X-32 kills a drug lord. 
Pg15pn1: the Congo, one day 
X-23 kills a dictator. 
Pg15pn2: Japan, one night 
X-23 kills some Hand ninjas. 
pg15pn3(of 3): Greece, one night 
X-23 blows up a boat, presumed ably someone important was on board. 
Pg16: the Facility, one night 
Rachel confronts Zander, he slaps her around. 
Pg17-pg18: the Facility, one day 
Sarah is looking at drawings her nice sent her when Kevin says that Zander is going on a mission with X-23. When she asks him why, he brushes her off and leaves. 
Pg19-pg22: an AIM complex, that night 
After completing the mission, Zander abandons X-23 to be killed by the remaining AIM agents. He kills some of his own men and threatens the pilot. 

References: 
As of pg10, Henry will be 3 next month. Rachel tells Zander that shes pregnant in X-23 #2 pg7-pg8, presumed ably it was a recent discovery. Assuming she found out around the two month mark, that would put X-23 #3 pg10 roughly 3 years, 6 months after X-23 #2 pg8. 

On pg18, Sarah narrates for three long years, you murdered without fail. Since pg2-pg8 was a field test, Im taking this to mean that pg12-pg16 are spread across three years. 

Orange leaves in Los Angeles on pg9. 

Full moon over Japan on pg15pn2. 

X-23 #4 
Innocence Lost pt 4 
W: Craig Kyle & Christopher Yost 
D: Billy Tan 
Published: May, 2005 

Appearances: 
X-23(Laura Kinney), Dr. Sarah Kinney, Dr. Zander Rice, Dr. Martin Sutter, Rachel Sutter, Kevin, Debbie, Megan. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: the Facility, same night as X-23 #3, pg22 
Sarah has been informed that X-23 didnt make it back from last issues AIM mission. 
Pg2-pg3: the Facility, a day or three later 
X-23 returns, everyone is shocked. Sarah is sent to debrief her. 
Pg4pn1: the Facility, same day 
Sarah debriefs X-23. 
Pg4pn2: FB 
Picking up where last issue left off, X-23 appears to be dead. 
Pg4pn3: the Facility 
Sarah debriefs X-23. 
Pg4pn4: FB 
X-23 wakes up and impales an AIM agent. 
Pg4pn5: the Facility 
Sarah debriefs X-23. 
Pg4pn6(of 6): FB 
X-23 kills lots of AIM agents. 
Pg5pn1: FB 
X-23 kills more AIM agents. 
Pg5pn2: the Facility 
Sarah debriefs X-23. 
Pg5pn3: FB 
X-23 kills even more AIM agents. 
Pg5pn4: the Facility 
Sarah debriefs X-23. 
Pg5pn5: FB 
X-23 looks pissed. 
pg5pn6(of 6): the Facility 
Sarah debriefs X-23, finds signs of abuse, she thinks that its Zander. 
Pg6-pg7pn1: the Facility, one day 
Sarah gets a call from Debbie, Megan is missing! 
Pg7pn2: FB 
A young Sarah is afraid of her approaching father. 
Pg7pn3-pn6(of 6): the Facility, same day 
Sarah and Kevin get X-23 
Pg8-pg10pn2: the Facility, same day 
Rachel tries to tell Martin that Henry isnt his, but shes interrupted by Zander who tells them that X-23 is missing. Martin and Zander look at X-23s empty cell. 
Pg10pn3-pg12: San Francisco, the next day 
Sarah meets with Debbie, X-23 gets Megans and her abductors scents. 
Pg13-pg18: San Francisco, the next day 
X-23 finds the abductor, poses as a girl scout selling cookies, and kills him. X-23 gives Megan to Sarah and Kevin. 
Pg19: the Facility, the next day 
Sarah and X-23 return to the Facility. 
Pg20-pg22: the Sutter residence, one night 
Zander drives Martin home, gets him to sign over the facility. He then sics X-23 on him and his family 

References: 
Martin says its been two days since Sarah took X-23 to San Francisco, making her return the third day. 

On pg20, Martin says Its been a very trying few weeks - the AIM situation, Kinneys stunt, phase two-. So pg1-pg20 spans a few weeks. Im assuming that most of that time was between pg19 and pg20, because were not shown what phase two is.(we find out later: its creating embryos X-24 through X-50) 

Orange leaves seen outside Martins window on pg9 & pg10. 

People are wearing jackets and scarves in San Francisco on pg14. 

Theres snow everywhere on pg20-pg22. 

X-23 #5 
Innocence Lost pt 5 
W: Craig Kyle & Christopher Yost 
D: Billy Tan 
Published: June, 2005 

Appearances: 
X-23(Laura Kinney), Dr. Sarah Kinney, Dr. Zander Rice, Dr. Martin Sutter, Rachel Sutter, Henry Sutter, Kevin. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: continuing from last issue 
As Rachel tells Martin that Henry isnt his, X-23 bursts in and kills them. 
Pg7-pg12: the Facility, 3:17 AM 
X-23 returns, Zander tells her not to tell anyone. She extends a claw once shes alone. 
Sarah wakes up and checks in on X-23, and sees her cutting herself. While she asks X-23 why shes abusing herself, Kevin tells them that Martin and Rachel are dead, but Henry is fine. Kevin leaves, and X-23 shows Sarah a family photo of the Sutters, revealing that she killed them. 
Pg13-pg16: the Facility, same day, before sunrise 
Sarah approaches Zander, he shows her the X-24 through X-50 embryos and tells her to get out before morning(sunrise), or hell have her killed. 
Pg17: the Facility, same day 
Zander informs the Facility staff that Martin is dead, and that hes in charge now. 
Pg18-pg22: the Facility, sunrise 
Sarah finishes writing a letter to X-23, Kevin tells her to hurry. They slip it and a mission assignment under X-23s door. She is to destroy the Facility and kill Zander in the next 22 minutes! 

References: 
The letter Sarah wrote X-23 has been the narration throughout the series. 

X-23 #6 
Innocence Lost pt 6 
W: Craig Kyle & Christopher Yost 
D: Billy Tan 
Published: July, 2005 

Appearances: 
X-23(Laura Kinney), Dr. Sarah Kinney, Dr. Zander Rice, Kevin. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13: continuing from last issue 
As X-23 sets some bombs and kills some staff members, Sarah escapes and Kevin dies. 
X-23 confronts Zander. 
Pg14pn1: the Facility 
X-23 breaks Zanders nose. 
Pg14pn2: FB 
Repeats X-23 #2 pg12pn4, no new information. 
Pg14pn3: the Facility 
X-23 breaks some of Zanders ribs. 
Pg14pn4: FB 
Zander sharpens X-23s claws while theyre still attached. 
Pg14pn5: the Facility 
X-23 breaks Zanders jaw. 
Pg14pn6: FB 
Repeats X-23 #3 pg21pn3, no new information. 
Pg14pn7(of 7): the Facility 
X-23 kicks Zanders face. 
Pg15-pg21: the Facility 
X-23 kills Zander, the Facility blows up as she meets Sarah outside. Sarah has the trigger scent in her hair(placed there by Zander last issue), which sends X-23 into a berserker rage. X-23 kills Sarah. Sarahs files spills onto the snow, showing photos of Professor X and Wolverine, and the Xavier Institute. 
Pg20pn5(of 6): FB 
Repeats X-23 #5 pg15pn4, no new information. 
Pg22: the Facility, that night 
A mysterious figure retrieves the trigger scent from the wreckage of the Facility. 
Pg23: New York City, Two years later 
X-23 gets off a bus. 

References: 
For those interested, the FlashBack seen in Captain Universe: X-23 #1 is a repeat of X-23 6-FBpg14pn4. Its a redrawn panel(almost traced), same poses, no new information. 

Theres snow around the Facility, just like last issue. 

Therere brown leaves in New York on pg23, and people are wearing coats. 

When she gets off the bus, X-23 is wearing an X-Men jacket. I dont think this is foreshadowing, I think this means that this page happens after X-Men 165, where she joins the team. 

Heres a temporal reference breakdown: 

X-23 1-FB pg10pn4 eight year old Sarah 
X-23 4-FB pg7pn2 eight year old Sarah 

X-23 1 pg1-pg3: Weapon X 
X-23 1 pg4: the day after X-23 1 pg3 
X-23 1 pg5: the day after X-23 1 pg4, green grass 
X-23 1 pg6-pg10: one day, years later, orange leaves 
X-23 1 pg11: one day 
X-23 1 pg12pn2: one day 
X-23 1 pg12pn4: one day 
X-23 1 pg12pn5: one day 
X-23 1 pg12pn7: one day 
X-23 1 pg13: one night 
X-23 1 pg14-pg15: one day, around 2 years after X-23 1 pg11 
X-23 1 pg16pn1-pn2: one day 
X-23 1 pg16pn3: one day 
X-23 1 pg16pn4-pn5: one day 
X-23 1 pg17pn1: one day 
X-23 1 pg17pn2: one day 
X-23 1 pg17pn3-pn4: one day 
X-23 1 pg17pn5: one day 
X-23 1 pg17pn6-pn7: one day 
X-23 1 pg18: one night, weeks after X-23 1 pg17pn1 
X-23 1 pg19-pg20: the day after X-23 1 pg18, orange leaves 
X-23 1 pg21pn1: one day, about 2 months after X-23 1 pg20 
X-23 1 pg21pn2: one day, 4 or 5 months after X-23 1 pg20 
X-23 1 pg21pn3: one day, 5 or 6 months after X-23 1 pg20 
X-23 1 pg21pn4-pn6: one day, about 8 months after X-23 1 pg20 
X-23 1 pg22-pg23: one day, about 9 months after X-23 1 pg20 
X-23 2 pg1-pg2: one day, seven years after X-23 1 pg23 
X-23 2 pg3-pg4: one day 
X-23 2 pg5-pg6: one day, green leaves 
X-23 2 pg7-pg8: one night, roughly 6 months before X-23 2 pg22 
X-23 2 pg9: one day 
X-23 2 pg10-pg14: one day 
X-23 2 pg15-pg16: one day 
X-23 6-FB pg14pn4: same day as X-23 2 pg16 
X-23 2 pg17-pg18: the day after X-23 2 pg16 
X-23 2 pg19: one night in the week following X-23 2 pg18 
X-23 2 pg20-pg22: the morning after X-23 pg19 
X-23 3 pg1: one day, 3 years after X-23 2 pg22 
X-23 3 pg2-pg11: the day after X-23 3 pg1, orange leaves, roughly 3 years, 6 months after X-23 2 pg8 
X-23 3 pg12-pg13: one day 
X-23 3 pg14pn1: one day 
X-23 3 pg14pn2: one day 
X-23 3 pg14pn3: one day 
X-23 3 pg15pn1: one day 
X-23 3 pg15pn2: one day, full moon over Japan 
X-23 3 pg15pn3: one day 
X-23 3 pg16: one night 
X-23 3 pg17-pg22: one day, 3 years after X-23 3 pg13 
X-23 4-FB pg4pn2: the same night as X-23 3 pg22 
X-23 4-FB pg4pn4: the same night as X-23 3 pg22 
X-23 4-FB pg4pn6: the same night as X-23 3 pg22 
X-23 4-FB pg5pn1: the same night as X-23 3 pg22 
X-23 4-FB pg5pn3: the same night as X-23 3 pg22 
X-23 4-FB pg5pn5: the same night as X-23 3 pg22 
X-23 4 pg1: the same night as X-23 3 pg22 
X-23 4 pg2-pg5: a few days after X-23 4 pg1 
X-23 4 pg6-pg10pn2: one day, orange leaves 
X-23 4 pg10pn3-pg12: the day after X-23 4 pg10pn2 
X-23 4 pg13-pg18: the day after X-23 4 pg12, jacket weather 
X-23 4 pg19: the day after X-23 4 pg18 
X-23 4 pg20-pg22: one night, a few weeks after X-23 3 pg22, snow 
X-23 5 pg1-pg6: the same night as X-23 4 pg22 
X-23 5 pg7-pg22: the day after X-23 5 pg6 
X-23 6 pg1-pg22: the same day as X-23 5 pg22, snow 
X-23 6 pg23: 2 years after X-23 6 pg22, brown leaves, coat weather 

As for placement of Wolverine in the Weapon X scene, as Jeph said here: 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And, finally, X-23 #1. I don't own it yet, but from what I've seen of it, the beginning features more of Logan's escape from the Weapon X facility. I've presumptively placed this between W3 #14-FB and W2 #166-FB  in W3 #14-FB Logan's still deep within the bowels of the Project, and in W2 #166, he's outside. I believe X-23 #1 has him going through the administrative areas and heading outside, although I could be wrong. Also, I have no idea if the Professor, Cornelius or Hines appear in this issue. Could anyone fill in some details on this? 
<<<

And: 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
M/CP 84 (11p4-19p5) 
* W3 14-FB 
[X-23 1] 
W2 166-FB 
M/CP 84 (20-24) 
<<<

As Im sure you know by now, Cornelius, Hines and the Professor do not appear here. Also, where Jeph suggested seems to be the only place to put this appearance. 

As for all the cameos in X-23 #3, its roughly 5 years or so from now, when X-23 gets off the bus in New York. If that scene is in the fall following the winter seen in X-Men 165, when would 5 years before that be? Sometime in Year 18 of Pauls Calendar? Was the Arranger still alive at that point? He was killed in Peter Parker 165 

Thats it for now, feel free to let me know if I missed anything!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 06:58 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
As for all the cameos in X-23 #3, its roughly 5 years or so from now, when X-23 gets off the bus in New York. If that scene is in the fall following the winter seen in X-Men 165, when would 5 years before that be? Sometime in Year 18 of Pauls Calendar? Was the Arranger still alive at that point? He was killed in Peter Parker 165 
<<<

Year 18 happens a while after PPTSS 165, but references to long periods of time rarely hold up in the MU. They usually are underestimated when compared to the cumulative effect of shorter-term temporal references. 

Thanks for the analysis, Col_Fury. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 05:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks for quoting me there, Col_Fury. That was one of the reasons I wanted to analyze these issues, to loop back and pick up on that very quote. 

I think I also offered a placement for the Weapon X portion of Bug #1 in that same thread -- I suppose that can now be disregarded, since we've decided that all effects of Bug's time trip were erased. 

By the way, I believe that the final sequence in #6, "X-23 gets off a bus", IS meant to lead into NYX #3. We know from recent NX issues that X-23 and Logan have met before, and that both are keeping that a secret. I think that X-23's owning an X-jacket is supposed to be foreshadowing of this secret past -- NOT an indication that the sequence occurs after X-23 comes to live at the mansion in X #165. (After all, the same folks write both X-23 and NX, and they seem to be ignoring her first, brief stint living at Xavier's. I doubt the jacket is meant to reference the one piece of history they're ducking.) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2006 12:22 am    
By Col_Fury

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I believe that the final sequence in #6, "X-23 gets off a bus", IS meant to lead into NYX #3. We know from recent NX issues that X-23 and Logan have met before, and that both are keeping that a secret. I think that X-23's owning an X-jacket is supposed to be foreshadowing of this secret past -- NOT an indication that the sequence occurs after X-23 comes to live at the mansion in X #165. (After all, the same folks write both X-23 and NX, and they seem to be ignoring her first, brief stint living at Xavier's. I doubt the jacket is meant to reference the one piece of history they're ducking.)  
<<<

All good points. You've convinced me. 

So, if X-23 6 pg23 occurs before NYX #3, and NYX #3 is in April of Year 22, then X-23 6 pg23 would likely be in the fall of Year 21, maybe Year 20.(most likely 21 though. Either way, Jeph was right about this being the only scene to make it in the current calendar) Five years(or so) before this would be sometime in Year 16.(maybe 15) 

Is the Arranger still alive in Year 16? 15? If not, that's all I got.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 101

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 07:45 am    Post subject: New X-Men Academy X Yearbook
By Somebody

New X-Men Academy X: Yearbook 
"Campfire" 
Written by Nunzio DeFilippis & Christina Weir, art by Georges Jeanty 

Continues literally straight from the end of NXMAX15 and takes place over less than a day. Takes place before Hellions #1. (There's a "several weeks ago" on the first page, but I'm certain that's a reflection of the fact that it's pre-HoM and pre-NXMHellions rather than an intra-story reference, since nothing in the story suggests a gap of several weeks - quite the opposite in fact). 

Trees are green, but it's the start of the summer holiday, so that makes sense. No moon in the night scenes. 

Page one - straight continuation of the end of NXMAX15, focusing on Sofia (Wind Dancer) and Julian (Hellion) this time. Sofia's panicking that her squad's falling apart, Julian tells her that if anyone can fix it she can, they kiss, and they both look a bit flustered as Julian heads off to meet up with the Hellions and tells her he'll see her when he gets back. 

Page two - Not straight after page one, but not that long after - an hour or so. Sofia goes to talk to Dani about the mess, and Dani tells her she'll have to do something, since several of the NMs have asked off the squad. (which is why it can't be straight after - you need time for Surge & Prodigy at least to have seen Dani seperately in the meantime). 

Page three - Nori (Surge) is working in the Grind Stone, moaning about David (Prodigy). Sofia and Jay (Icarus) are there, in civvies, trying to talk her down, and the place is otherwise deserted. Sofia asks Nori what time she gets off work, because they're going to have a 

Pages four-five - "...campfire". All six NMs are in the woods at the Xavier Institute for a campout, and the sun's setting. Dani Moonstar, Karma and Magma are watch them from a distance for a few minutes before going in, talking about Magma becoming a teacher. 

Page six - Sofia tries to get David to start talking, he declines and they sit until the sun sets completely in silence. 

Pages seven-eleven - Sofia starts yelling that they're friends and they should be talking, Josh brings up how no-one's been talking to him, and that brings up a load of sores, as everyone starts yelling at each other and even Sofia hitting the mute button with her wind only brings Josh (Elixir) to try and start punching David, who dodges. Laurie (Wallflower) gets Sofia to drop the mute, and admits to Josh she made David kiss her at the prom. David says it changes nothing, Josh agrees and finally whacks him one, leading Jay to leave, telling Sofia it was admirable of her to try but the group was hopeless. 

Page twelve - Cut to Dani, Karma and Magma in the cafeteria. Dani's angsting over the squad, worrying they'll never forgive each other, but Magma uses this to bring up her treatment of Rahne (Wolfsbane) in NXMAX12 and since, ending by telling her she should go and see her. Dani says "perhaps." 

Pages thirteen-sixteen - Some time after Jay's playing his guitar, Josh comes up and compliments him on it and asks how he keeps out of the fighting. Jay just says it doesn't seem worth it, and besides, he keeps to himself a lot. Josh says he does too and Jay says only because he's forced to. Josh admits it and talks about how he fell for Rahne and then Laurie, and that he's glad that Rahne had broken it off - they hadn't been going anywhere, and things were getting "really good" with Laurie - then prods Jay to see if he was listening and Jay points out that the other four had turned up. Josh and Laurie talk each other back to friendship, then Laurie apologises to David, and Sofia prompts David and Josh to make up (Although Josh doesn't apologise for punching David), then David apologises to Sofia for leaving this whole mess up to her. Jay comments to Nori that Sofia pulled it off, but Nori walks over to the lake saying not everything's resolved. 

Pages seventeen-eighteen. "Later..." They're all in sleeping bags, until David gets up and shakes Nori to talk to her, and they go some way away from the group. David says he knows Nori asked for a transfer and that he did too. He starts to apologise for the way he's been acting, saying he doesn't know how to deal with her, but he wants to. She smiles and says he thinks & talks too much and grabs him and kisses him. Zoom out on the other four all sitting up watching this, then slumping back down when they realise what's happening. 


[Midnight break] 

Page nineteen: "The next morning..." Dani greets them heading back into the mansion, everything's well, and Dani complements Sofia on never giving up. David mentions they were hoping for some extra squad training - Dani says great idea, but she'll be away for a few days, since there's a friend in NY she needs to see. "The End." 

Rest of the book's 5 pages of squad pics with the NMs, Hellions, Corsairs (Stepford Cuckoos are listed as the "Three-in-One" with "Cuckoo" as their surnames). Alpha Squadron and the Paragons; and 15 one-page Handbook bios for each of the NMs and Hellions, plus Dani (oddly listed as "Mirage" here and on the NMs squad page, despite not using that codename in yoinks), Karma and Magma. 

Appearance listings (not counting the squad pics). House of M appearances follow NXMAXY in all cases. 

ELIXIR/JOSH FOLEY 
[...] 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY 

HELLION/JULIAN KELLER 
[...] 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY 
NXMH1 
[...] 

ICARUS/JOSHUA "JAY" GUTHRIE 
[...] 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY 

KARMA/XI'AN COY MANH 
[...] 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY 

MAGMA/AMARA AQUILLA/ALLISON CRESTMERE 
[...] 
NM2 13 
XX 46 
UXM444 
NXMAX14 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY 

MIRAGE II/DANIELLE MOONSTAR 
[...] 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY 

PRODIGY IV/DAVID ALLEYNE 
[...] 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY 

SURGE IV/NORIKO ASHIDA 
[...] 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY 

WALLFLOWER/LAURIE COLLINS 
[...] 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY 

WIND DANCER/SOFIA MANTEGA 
[...] 
NXMAX15 
NXMAXY

Last edited by Somebody on 27 Oct 2005 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 09:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The squad pages probably ought to count as flashback appearances, since unlike the Handbook profiles, they're presented as actual pages from the Academy yearbook. In which case, at some point the characters posed for the group photos - presumably very late in the day, given that Magma is shown as one of the form teachers!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 10:34 am    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The squad pages probably ought to count as flashback appearances, since unlike the Handbook profiles, they're presented as actual pages from the Academy yearbook. In which case, at some point the characters posed for the group photos - presumably very late in the day, given that Magma is shown as one of the form teachers! 
<<<

Is there any point where these pictures (presuming, oc, that they're all taken at the same time, which would make sense given that they're on the same background) could actually fit if you take them as having "really happened"? 

I have a sneaking suspicion that this only works if you assume Karma or Wolfsbane was originally in the Paragons picture and Magma's been Photoshopped into the printed version in place of them 

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 11:58 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yeah, you put them before the graduation ceremony. Magma's there because she's going to mentor that class next year.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 03:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I assume, then, that some major shakeup post-HOM will prevent these yearbook line-ups from applying to the beginning of the upcoming school year, after the summer is over?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 07:38 pm    
By Col_Fury

I would say yes, almost definitely. In HoM 7, it looks like the Scarlet Witch has erased most of the world's mutant population, if the ads for "the 198" and "Decimation" are to be believed. Of course, HoM 8 will clarify things a bit for us.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 09:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hmm. I figured that the second remaking of reality in HOM 7 would be reversed in HOM 8 and that actual reality would return, albeit with the usual advertised "major changes" (uh huh) that come after these crossover events occur.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2005 09:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The second remaking of reality IS the "major change". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*	

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 03:15 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I assume, then, that some major shakeup post-HOM will prevent these yearbook line-ups from applying to the beginning of the upcoming school year, after the summer is over? 
<<<

Spoilers: There is no upcoming school year. Virtually all the pupils are going to lose their powers as part of the mass cutback in the global mutant population. The handful of kids who still have powers will remain at the school as a more typical New Mutants-style team.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:09 am    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Yeah, you put them before the graduation ceremony. Magma's there because she's going to mentor that class next year. 
<<<

Magma doesn't accept any job until after Scott & Emma leave in NXMAX 15. Plus Shan's still trying to get Rahne back to mentor the Paragons until their chat in #15. And the Hellions leave the night of #15/the Yearbook to appear in Hellions #1... before Scott & Emma get back.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 04:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's a theory I've been working on for the past week or so, and events in the Yearbook seem to support it. I haven't worked everything out, but here goes: What if...the Raft breakout occurs "six months" after Finale instead of "six months" after Disassembled. You could interpret the introductory narration in those early New Avengers issues that way, considering the "worst day" and the "disbanding" appear to be conflated, even though we know "three months" separate A 503 and A:FINALE. 

Then we could have A 500-503 in late September, before the Halloween of FF 517. 

A:FINALE could occur at the beginning of December. 

The Raft breakout could occur at the end of May, close to six months after FINALE (and six months inclusive). 

The Sentry storyline in A4 7-10 occurs a "week" after that breakout, and this way, we could time it for an early June Prizegiving in NX 14-15 and NX:H 1. This would support the theory that the X-Men must miss the Prizegiving to help the Avengers deal with Sentry. 

(A4 11-13 could occur later in June, during the "month" after the Raft breakout.) 

NX:AXY 1 would follow right on the heels of NX 15 in early June. The time reference for this story is "several weeks" before our frame of reference, which would be House of M, given that's where the main title (NX) is. 

By the time NX:AXY 1 ends, the Hellions are involved in their own adventure out west in NX:H. It takes a while for them to return to Xavier's, but they do so during the summer. Meanwhile, Sofia is spending the summer with Laurie and her mom. 

Everyone is back at Xavier's by late August to start a new academic year. All the squads get their pictures taken at that point, in NX:AXY 1/2. 

House of M could happen in September, after the new year has begun. It is a good "several weeks" (okay, a few months) after NX:AXY 1. 

Then everything gets turned on its head because of the events of HOM 7. Wow, this really is a big change...for a change.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:24 pm    
By Col_Fury

Of course, this depends on when Fury gets his position back with SHIELD, making his appearance in Hellions one of his first 'clean-up' jobs after the corruption in SHIELD is discovered.... 

That said, I really like this. It even opens up more time for Rogue 7-12 to occur, Marvel Team-Up, etc. Yeah, I like this...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2005 06:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Of course, this depends on when Fury gets his position back with SHIELD 
<<<

Yes, I'm hoping that Fury can be reinstated early in the summer, thereby creating room throughout the summer for all those pre-HOM Fury appearances to occur, plus all those other arcs whose placement hinge on the Fury stories. We have lots of issues to accommodate, including M/TU3 1-13, FOES 1-6 (which itself takes a while to happen), ROGUE3 7-12, PPSS 23-26, ASM 515-524, M/KSM 13-18, etc., so opening that space between the Prizegiving and House of M would help a lot. 

Oh, and the other thing moving the Raft breakout to June does is open up more time before it for the lengthy period of the Enemy of the State and Agent of SHIELD story arcs in W3, not to mention the Secret War that follows on their heels. That, in turn, puts Secret War in a good spot for an actual anniversary of the original mission in the SECWAR flashbacks. (Of course, Cage still will have to heal quickly between SECWAR and A4 1...) 

It's times like these that you really do need to see the whole MU forest to get a good grasp of chronologies of small portions of it.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 12:39 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Everyone is back at Xavier's by late August to start a new academic year. All the squads get their pictures taken at that point, in NX:AXY 1/2. 

House of M could happen in September, after the new year has begun. It is a good "several weeks" (okay, a few months) after NX:AXY 1. 

Then everything gets turned on its head because of the events of HOM 7. Wow, this really is a big change...for a change. 
<<<

Per 198 #1, not gonna work as such, since Magma was apparently nowhere near the school on M-Day.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 05:28 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hey, are the bios from the back of this Yearbook reprinted from a Handbook, or are they all-new? Because they're not collected in the latest TPB... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2006 05:01 am    
By Somebody

New

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2006 11:51 am    
By jephyork
Director

Dammit! Thanks. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2006 01:59 pm    
By Jason Doty

Just as a heads up Astonishing X-Men Saga also has two Marvel Universe style entries at the end for Danger and Ord.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2006 10:58 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Are they the same ones that were printed in the recent X-Men handbook?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Thread 102

Posted: 18 Jan 2006 02:34 am    Post subject: Giant-Size Invaders #2
By JLH

------------------------------------ 

GIANT-SIZE INVADERS #2 [2005] 
Writer: Roy Thomas 
Penciler: Lee Weeks 
"A Drive in the Country" 

Cast: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
MISS AMERICA/MADELINE JOYCE FRANK 
ROOSEVELT, FRANKLIN DELANO 
CHURCHILL, SIR WINSTON 
HITLER, ADOLF (BTS, is said to have personally given the Nazi agents their info on the conference) 


Other characters: 
Hans and Fritz, two Nazi agents who go Giant-Size. Both die. 
Unnamed Secret Service Agents 


Summary: The Invaders are given the task of playing bodyguard to Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt as they meet in Hyde Park for a conference. Miss America, Human Torch, and the Sub-Mariner escort Churchill's plane to a safe landing, met by Captain America with FDR by his side. Namor, finding the assignment unbefitting of a prince of Atlantis, soon takes off for a swim in the Hudson River. Winston soon joins Franklin in his Stutz Bearcat, and is taken by surprise when the President drives off at a high speed, playing a game with his Secret Service men to keep them on their toes. His car supposedly has manual controls, in case you're wondering. Soon, a pair of Nazi agents sneak into the park undetected, and using information given to them by Der Fuhrer himself, they down pills which transform them into giants. The pair ambush the two world leaders when they approach, but Human Torch and Miss America manage to arrive in time to save them. The two Invaders aren't as lucky, getting defeated, putting Winston & Franklin in danger once more, until Captain America makes the scene. This only buys the Prime Minister and President enough time to get out of the hole and into the river, where they end up saved by the sudden appearance of Namor. The entire team of Invaders works together against the Giant-Size Nazis, only to have the pair die without warning, their bodies withering to shrunken sacks of flesh. Cap finds their pill boxes and realizes the truth of the giants, that they'd been given the ability to grow after they snuck into the park, and such sudden growth would have taxed their hearts to the point they'd die within minutes. The question remains if the Nazi pair knew it'd kill them, causing Cap to realize that if America ever faced a horse of such sort of suicidal fanatics, they'd prove harder to defeat than an army (how Timely!... pun intended). Needless to say, the two world leaders are unharmed, and in response to how he enjoyed the drive in the country, Winston quotes himself from another context, "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result." 

Continuity notes: This is the first time Miss America has met Winston Churchill. The Whizzer is absent, but not explanation is given (he's not even mentioned). 

Calendar notes: Right off the bat it says it takes place "June 19, 1942". Thanks, Roy! INVADERS vol 2 #1 starts on June 22nd (with a mention of Winston & Franklin's conference), and the text piece in the back of it says "only a few weeks at most" passed between INVADERS vol 1 #41 and it. 

Timeframe: 
Takes place all in one day, within maybe an hour or so at most. 

Quote: "Ah! The winner of your national beauty contest... and she can FLY, as well?"- Churchill, when introduced to Miss America. 


The rest of this 96 page issue features these reprints (with covers): 
THE INVADERS #1: "The Ring of the Nebulas!" 
THE INVADERS #2: "The Twilight of the Star-Gods!" 
ALL-WINNERS COMICS #1: The Sub-Mariner 
ALL-WINNERS COMICS #2: Human Torch and Toro, the Flaming Kid - "Carnival of Death!" 
ALL-WINNERS COMICS #2: Captain America - "in The Strange Case of the Malay Idol". 
------------------------------------ 

And now for the MCP style stuff... 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
INV 41 
**GSINV 2 (should the 6/19/42 date be listed here, as well?) 
INV2 1 (6/22/42) 
... 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
... 
INV 41 
SAGASM 5 
**GSINV 2 
INV2 1 
... 


HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
... 
INV 41 
SAGAHT 2 
**GSINV 2 
INV2 1 
... 

MISS AMERICA/MADELINE JOYCE FRANK 
... 
INV 41 
**GSINV 2 
INV2 1 
... 

ROOSEVELT, FRANKLIN DELANO 
... 
INV 5 
**GSINV 2 
MSU 9 

CHURCHILL, SIR WINSTON 
... 
INV 30 
**GSINV 2 

HITLER, ADOLF 
... 
SGTF 24 
**GSINV 2-BTS 
SVTU 17-FB 
...

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jan 2006 06:18 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
Calendar notes: Right off the bat it says it takes place "June 19, 1942". Thanks, Roy! INVADERS vol 2 #1 starts on June 22nd (with a mention of Winston & Franklin's conference), and the text piece in the back of it says "only a few weeks at most" passed between INVADERS vol 1 #41 and it.  


VERY convenient from a calendar standpoint. I assume that GSI 2 makes sense between INV 41 and INV2 1 from a continuity standpoint -- first time Miss America met Churchill, etc. 

Thanks, JLH! 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 103

Posted: 19 Jan 2006 02:36 am    Post subject: Spirits of Vengeance 7-12
By Col_Fury

Spirits of Vengeance #7 
a Day of Vengeance, a Day of Death! 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Adam Kubert 
Published: February, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Deathwatch, Hag, Troll, Wolf, Clara Menninger, Eli, Kody, Miranda Woods, Steel Wind, Steel Vengeance, Mephisto, Centurious-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg14: Continued from last issue 
Dragging Deathwatch, Hag, & Troll behind them, Ghost Rider and Johnny Blaze arrive at the Quentin Carnival. Clara has been having horrible visions since Blaze left, and Wolf is upset because of this. Outside, Ghost Rider is attacked by Steel Vengeance and her sister Steel Wind. Ghost Rider and Blaze start to fight when Mephisto appears and takes them away. Steels Vengeance & Wind are going to take Deathwatch, Hag & Troll to their Master, Centurious. 

References: 
All in one night, continued from last issue. 

Steel Wind and Steel Vengeance are sisters, and two separate characters, as revealed in this issue. Also, they are under orders from their Master, later revealed to be Centurious, giving him a BTS for this issue. 

Spirits of Vengeance #7/2 
the Great Hunt pt 1 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Joe Kubert! 
Published: February, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Donna. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: One night in New York 
Dan and Donna are leaving the bar that Dan is trying to get a job at, when Donna is attacked by demons! Dan turns into Ghost Rider, fights on then follows it, which leads to a bunch of other demons. 

References: 
Dan is trying to find a steady job, which is what he was planning to do after Ghost Rider vol2 #25, but he never got around to it until now! 

Spirits of Vengeance #8 
Devil Dance 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Adam Kubert 
Published: March, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Mephisto. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg14: Continued form last issue 
Mephisto drops Ghost rider and Blaze off in a desert and makes them fight two demonic villains. When they beat them, Mephisto appears and takes away the two villains, leaving Ghost Rider and Blaze in the desert. Ghost Rider mentions that their bikes are on the way to them. 
Back in hell, Mephisto kills the two villains. 

References: 
All in one day, same day as last issue. 

Spirits of Vengeance #8/2 
the Great Hunt pt 2 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Joe Kubert! 
Published: March, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: Continued from last issue 
Ghost Rider discovers that the demons were once human, and they now eat other humans once every ten years during the Great Hunt. Ghost rider kills all but one, then gives him the Penance Stare. 

References: 
All in one night, same night as last issue. 

Spirits of Vengeance #9 
Carnival of Death pt 1 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Adam Kubert 
Published: April, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Steel Wind, Steel Vengeance, Deathwatch, Hag, Troll, Carver(& his monkey), Centurious, Wolf, Kody, Clara Menninger, Miranda Woods, Timothy Woods, Eli, Mephisto, Vengeance(Michael Badilino). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Somewhere 
Centurious tortures and kills Steel Vengeance while Steel Wind, Deathwatch, Hag, Troll, and Carver(& his monkey) watch. Centurious tells Carver to salvage Steel vengeances remains, then sends Steel Wind after Blaze. 
Pg4-pg9: Dover, New Jersey 
Ghost Rider and Blaze arrive at the Quentin Carnival. The carnies now have weapons, because they suspect Steels Wind and Vengeance to return. Carla has another vision, and they notice that Timmy is missing 
Pg10-pg12: Meanwhile, in New York, 
Michael Badilino sells his soul to Mephisto and is turned into Vengeance! 
Pg13-pg22: Meanwhile, back in Dover, 
Timmy looks for his dad, but finds a kitty instead. Steel Wind attacks Timmy, and shes attacked by Ghost Rider and Blaze. Theres a big fight, and then Vengeance shows up. 

References: 
All in one night, full moon over New Jersey. 

Michael Badilinos appearance here must occur after his appearance in Ghost Rider vol3 #35, due to his initial inability to transform back and forth from human to Vengeance, as reveled in Ghost Rider vol3 #39. 

Its revealed that Centurious is the mysterious Master who was the head of the Firm, and the mystery villain pulling strings seen in recent issues of Ghost Rider vol3. 

Spirits of Vengeance #10 
a Storm of Vengeance 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Adam Kubert 
Published: May, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Steel Wind, Wolf, Kody, Clara Menninger, Miranda woods, Timothy Woods, Eli, Centurious. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg20: Continued from last issue 
The big fight continues, and Vengeance joins in. Timmy is found, then stolen again. Vengeance tears off Steel Winds arms. Kody transforms into a monster. Steel Wind kills Eli. Vengeance beats the crap out of Ghost Rider until Miranda stops everyone with her weird green energy powers. 
Pg21: Somewhere 
Centurious watches all of this through his Crystal of Souls. 
Pg22-pg23: Dover, New Jersey 
Blaze decides to bury the dead carnies. 

References: 
All in one night, same night as last issue, full moon over New Jersey. 

Centurious is using his Crystal of Souls, meaning this is the same Centurious previously seen in Ghost Rider vol2. I went back and re-read his appearances in those issues, as can be seen in his suggested chronology update below. I guess he got out of that crystal at some point 

Spirits of Vengeance #11 
the Spiders Kiss 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Vince Giarrano 
Published: June, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Shelob. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Elizabeth, New Jersey, night 
One night in a motel, Blaze is attacked by Shelob, a giant spider. The spider runs off, disguised as a truck driver, who eventually eats a hooker. While looking for the trucker, Blaze runs into Ghost Rider, who mentions that he, too ran into Shelob tonight. Blaze looks for Shelob alone, finds her, and she runs off. While chasing her, Ghost Rider catches up and together they defeat her. 

References: 
All in one night. 

Spirits of Vengeance #12 
Obligations 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Adam Kubert 
Published: July, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Kody, Wolf, Elis corpse, Clara Menninger, Miranda Woods, Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Quinn. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg21: Dover, New Jersey, night 
Ghost Rider, Blaze, Kody, and Wolf break into the military occupied Quentin Carnival to retrieve Elis corpse and to cremate the other dead carnies. Theyre shot at but escape. While Wolf and Kody take Clara and Miranda to the rendezvous point, Ghost rider and Blaze lead the military guys in the other direction, but Vengeance finds them and they fight. Quinn(Elis son) teleports Vengeance away. Everyone meets at Quinns cabin, and Blaze watches a post-mortem holographic message from Eli. 
Pg22: the next night 
Everyone attends a private funeral for Eli, and by extension, the other dead carnies. 

References: 
Blaze mentions that its been weeks since SoV #10. Since theres a full moon in this issue, weeks means four. 

Ghost Rider vol3 #39 leads directly into this issue. 

And now, some chronology placement and update suggestions: 

Deathwatch/Stephan Lords 
 
SOV 6 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 9 
GR3 42 

Hag 
 
SOV 6 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 9 

Troll 
 
SOV 6 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 9 

Wolf 
 
SOV 6 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 
GR3 39 
*SOV 12 

Woods, Miranda 
SOV 6 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 
GR3 39 
*SOV 12 

Woods, Timothy 
SOV 5 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 

Menninger, Clara 
 
SOV 6 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 
GR3 39 
*SOV 12 

Carver 
*SOV 9 
GR3 42 

Mephisto 
 
T@ 19-BTS 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 8 
*SOV 9 
GR3 39 
 

Vengeance/Michael Badilino 
 
GR3 35 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 
GR3 39 
*SOV 12 
GR3 43 
 

Steel Wind 
*GR2 75-FB 
{GR2 75} 
CA 389 
 
CA 395/2 
**SOV 2 <- - move from here, thats her sister 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 

Steel Vengeance 
**SOV 2 <- - move to here 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 9 

Centurious 
*GR2 77-FB 
*GR2 80-FB 
{GR2 74} 
*GR2 80 
*GR3 18 
*GR3 25 
*SOV 2 
*SOV 7-BTS 
GR3 37 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 
GR3 41 
 

Ghost Rider II/Johnny Blaze 
 
SOV 6 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 8 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 
*SOV 11 
GR3 39 
*SOV 12 
NS 10 
 

Ghost Rider III/Dan Ketch 
 
GR3 25 
*SOV 7/2 
*SOV 8/2 
X 8 
 
SOV 6 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 8 
M/CP 119/2 
 
GR3 38 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 
NS 7 
M/CP 123/2 
 
FF 374 
*SOV 11 
PWJ 57 
 
GR3 39 
*SOV 12 
M/CP 131/2 
 

Up next: More Spirits of Vengeance!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 104

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 07:09 am    Post subject: Spirits of Vengeance 13-18
By Col_Fury

Spirits of Vengeance #13 
Midnight Massacre pt 5 
Dead Mans Tales 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Adam Kubert 
Published: August, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Demogoblin, Werewolf(Jack Russell), Modred, Victoria Montesi, Hannibal King, Morbius, Blade, Frank Drake, Louise Hastings, Sam Buchanan, Seer, Lilith, Centurious, Darkhold envelope guy, Dr. Strange-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Continued from Morbius #12 
Ghost Rider fights Crazy Blade, who runs into Dr. Stranges Sanctum Santorum. He grabs the Darkhold book and is thrown out of the house by protective spells, so he fights Ghost Rider again. While he beats the crap out of Ghost Rider, Louise gets the book and brings everyone back to life, and brings Blade back to normal. Everyone leaves. 
Elsewhere, Seer talks to unnamed members of the Blood, Lilith looks extremely pregnant, Centurious gloats, and the Darkhold envelope guy laughs. 

References: 
The chapters in the crossover are: 
1. Nightstalkers #10 
2. Ghost Rider vol3 #40 
3. Darkhold #11 
4. Morbius #12 
5. Spirits of Vengeance #13 

Ghost Rider appears in the last panel of Nightstalkers #10, so that issue should be added to his chronology. 

Spirits of Vengeance #14 
Road to Vengeance: the Missing Link pt 2 
Truth is Only Skin Deep! 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Mike Manley 
Published: September, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Skinner, Wolf, Kody, Steel Wind, Pilgrim, Outcast, Centurious, Lilith, Doris Ketch, Carver(& his monkey), Seer, Caretaker. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Continued from Ghost Rider vol3 #41 
Skinner attacks and eats a trucker. 
Pg4-pg8: Bucks County, Pennsylvania 
Blaze, Wolf, and Kody are fighting Steel Wind, Pilgrim, and Outcast when Ghost Rider shows up. The villains leave. 
Pg9: Elsewhere 
Centurious, Lilith, Carver, and Carvers monkey interrogate Dans mom. 
Pg10: Bucks County, Pennsylvania 
Dan and Johnny talk about Centurious while they drive, Johnny wonders how Centurious got out of the Crystal of Souls. 
Pg11: the Nightclub 
Seer talks to an unnamed member of the Blood. 
Pg12-pg22: Outside Holly 
Dan and Johnny are attacked by Skinner, they fight. Centurious and Lilith show up and take Skinner. Caretaker arrives and talks to Ghost Rider, then Seer arrives. 

References: 
Continued from Ghost Rider vol3 #41, to be continued in Ghost Rider vol3 #42. 

Steel Wind appears in GR3 41 & 42, so those issues should be added to her chronology. Also, Carver appears in GR3 41, so that one should be added to his. 

Spirits of Vengeance #15 
Road to Vengeance: the Missing Link pt 4 
Trials of Fire! 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Mike Manley 
Published: October, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Seer, Kody, Wolf, Clara Menninger, Miranda Woods, Quinn, Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Centurious, Lilith, Caretaker. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Continued from Ghost Rider vol3 #42 
Ghost Rider and Seer arrive at Quinns place with Johnny Blaze, who was cut up and bleeding hellfire in GR3 42. Kody, Wolf, Clara, and Miranda are worried, Quinn tries to help Johnny. 
Pg6-pg7: Elsewhere 
Vengeance fights some monks. 
Pg8: beneath Cypress Hills cemetery 
Centurious and Lilith chat. 
Pg9-pg22: Quinns place 
Quinn is finished patching up Johnny when Vengeance shows up and starts a fight with Ghost Rider. Blaze interrupts to show off his new status quo: metal bits covering where hellfire burned his flesh away. They beat Vengeance, turn him back into human and find out that hes Michael Badilino. They leave, Caretaker arrives and makes Michael an offer 

References: 
Continued from Ghost Rider vol3 #42, to be continued in Ghost Rider vol3 43. 

Spirits of Vengeance #16 
Road to Vengeance: the Missing Link pt 6 
Zarathos 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: November, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Caretaker, Zarathos, Seer, Wolf, Clara Menninger, Kody, Miranda Woods, Lilith, Pilgrim, Centurious, Doris Ketch, Nakota. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Continued from Ghost Rider vol3 #43 
Zarathos beats up Ghost Rider, Blaze, Vengeance, and Caretaker, then leaves. 
Pg4: the Nightclub 
Seer and Clara have visions, Wolf, Kody, and Miranda try to calm them down. 
Pg5-pg7: Cypress Hills cemetery 
Lilith joins Zarathos, Centurious isnt happy. 
Pg8-pg11: the Nightclub 
Ghost Rider, Blaze, Vengeance, and Caretaker take Dans mom to the Nightclub. 
Pg12-pg13: Two page spread 
Pg12pn1-pg13pn2: 
Caretaker gives us a history lesson on the Spirits of Vengeance 
Pg12pn3: FB 
Mephisto turns Johnny Blaze into Ghost Rider, no new information. 
Pg12pn4: FB 
Ghost Rider(Johnny Blaze) fries Michael Badilinos dad with hellfire. 
Pg12pn5: FB 
Michael's dad kills his family except for Michael. 
Pg13pn6: FB 
Barbara Ketch dies, no new information. 
Pg13pn7: FB 
Zarathos is pleased. 
Pg14: the Nightclub 
Caretaker finishes the history lesson. 
Pg15-pg22: Cypress Hills cemetery 
Our heroes attack and fight Zarathos and Lilith, trapping them under ground. Caretaker reveals that Dan and Johnny are brothers! 

References: 
Continued from Ghost Rider vol3 #43. 

The chapters in the crossover are: 
1. Ghost Rider vol3 #41 
2. Spirits of Vengeance #14 
3. Ghost Rider vol3 #42 
4. Spirits of Vengeance #15 
5. Ghost Rider vol3 #43 
6. Spirits of Vengeance #16 

The FlashBack involving Johnny Blaze as Ghost Rider frying Mikes dad with hellfire should occur very early in Blazes chronology.(Apparently, Mephistos plan was to assemble the Spirits of Vengeance for his own purposes, but Blazes fighting being the Ghost Rider kind of threw things off) Most likely, it occurs around Avengers 118 and Marvel Team-Up 15, when Blaze was in New York. 

Spirits of Vengeance #17 
Siege of Darkness pt 8 
the End of the World as We Know it! 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: December, 1993 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Dr. Strange, Morbius, Caretaker, Blade, Victoria Montesi, Frank Drake, Hannibal King, Samson Buchanan, Blackout, Outcast, Skinner, Zarathos, Lilith, Pilgrim, Nakota. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: Continued from Dr. Strange vol3 #60 
In the ruins of Dr. Stranges house, the heroes and villains listed above(except Zarathos and Lilith) fight. The heroes retreat to the Nightclub to regroup. 
Pg8-pg9: Cypress Hills cemetery 
Zarathos and Lilith chat. 
Pg10-pg11: Meanwhile 
The heroes pick a fight with the villains listed above. 
Pg12-pg23: Meanwhile 
Zarathos and Lilith finish their chat, Zarathos decides to join the fight, so he does. 

References: 
Continued from Dr. Strange vol3 #60, to be continued in Nightstalkers #15. 

Spirits of Vengeance #18 
Siege of Darkness pt 16 
Spirit of Death 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: January, 1994 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider III(Dan Ketch), Johnny Blaze, Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Dr. Strange, Blade, Morbius, Sam Buchanan, Victoria Montesi, Frank Drake, Hannibal King, Stacy Dolan, Caretaker, Zarathos. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23: Continued from Dr. Strange vol3 #61 
Our heroes rescue Caretaker, then are ambushed by Zarathos, who teleports himself and Ghost Rider away, Stacy follows. Zarathos and Ghost Rider fight, Ghost Rider dies. Our heroes arrive just a little too late 

References: 
Continued from Dr. Strange vol3 #61, to be concluded in Midnight Sons Unlimited #4! 

The chapters in the crossover are: 
1. Nightstalkers #14 
2. Ghost Rider vol3 #44 
3. Marvel Comics Presents #143 
4. Darkhold #15 
5. Morbius #16 
6. Marvel Comics Presents #144 
7. Dr. strange vol3 #60 
8. Spirits of Vengeance #17 
9. Nightstalkers #15 
10. Ghost Rider vol3 #45 
11. Marvel Comics Presents #145 
12. Darkhold #16 
13. Morbius #17 
14. Marvel Comics Presents #146 
15. Dr. Strange vol3 #61 
16. Spirits of Vengeance #18 
17. Midnight Sons Unlimited #4 

And now its time for the obligatory chronology placement suggestions: 

Demogoblin 
 
GR3 40 
*SOV 13 
V: EW 1 
 

Werewolf/Jack Russell 
 
MORBIUS 12 
*SOV 13 
MORBIUS 13 
 

Modred the Mystic 
 
DHOLD 11 
*SOV 13 
Q 50 
 

Nakota 
 
GR3 31 
*SOV 13 
GR3 41 
MORBIUS 13 
*SOV 16 
MORBIUS 16 
*SOV 17 

Blackout II/ 
 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
 

Dolan, Stacy 
 
GR3 45 
M/CP 145 
M/CP 146 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Steel Wind 
 
SOV 10 
*GR3 41 
*SOV 14 
*GR3 42 

Ketch, Doris Audra Frances 
 
GR3 39 
*SOV 14 
GR3 41 
GR3 42 
GR3 43 
*SOV 16 
GR3 46 
 

Menninger, Clara 
 
GR3 39 
SOV 12 
*SOV 15 
*SOV 16 

Wolf 
 
GR3 39 
SOV 12 
*SOV 15 
*SOV 16 

Skinner 
 
SOV 3 
*SOV 14 
GR3 42 
*SOV 17 
GR3 62 
 

Carver 
SOV 9 
*GR3 41 
*SOV 14 
GR3 42 

Outcast 
GR3 41 
*SOV 14 
GR3 43 
GR3 44 
MORBIUS 16 
*SOV 17 

Hastings, Prof. Louise 
 
MORBIUS 12 
*SOV 13 
MORBIUS 13 

Montesi, Victoria 
 
DHOLD 11 
*SOV 13 
MORBIUS 13 
 
MORBIUS 16 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
 
M/CP 146/2 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
DRSTR3 72 
 

King, Hannibal/Henry Kagle 
 
NS 10 
*SOV 13 
MSU 3 
 
MORBIUS 16 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
M/CP 146/4 
 
MORBIUS 17 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Blade 
 
MORBIUS 12 
*SOV 13 
MSU 3 
 
M/CP 144/3 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
 
M/CP 146 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Buchanan, Samson 
 
MORBIUS 12 
*SOV 13 
MORBIUS 13 
 
MORBIUS 16 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
 
DHOLD 16 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Drake, Franklin 
 
MORBIUS 12 
*SOV 13 
MSU 3 
 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144/3 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
 
M/CP 146 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Morbius/Dr. Michael Morbius 
 
MORBIUS 12 
*SOV 13 
MSU 2 
 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144 
M/CP 144/3 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
 
MORBIUS 17 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Pilgrim 
 
GR3 41 
*SOV 14 
*SOV 16 
GR3 44 
 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144/3 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
 

Seer/ 
GR3 40 
*SOV 13 
GR@ 1 
GR3 41 
*SOV 14 
GR3 42 
*SOV 15 
GR3 43 
*SOV 16 
M/CP 143 
GR3 45 
M/CP 146 

Caretaker 
 
GR3 39 
*SOV 14 
GR3 42 
*SOV 15 
GR3 43 
*SOV 16 
GR3 44 
 
MORBIUS 16 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
M/CP 145 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Centurious 
 
GR3 37 
SOV 9 
SOV 10 
*SOV 13 
GR3 41 
*SOV 14 
GR3 42 
*SOV 15 
GR3 43 
*SOV 16 

Lilith II 
 
GR3 31 
*SOV 13 
GR3 41 
*SOV 14 
MORBIUS 13 
MORBIUS 15 
GR3 42 
*SOV 15 
GR3 43 
*SOV 16 
NS 14 
 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144/3 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
MSU 4 
 

Doctor Strange/Dr. Steven Strange 
 
DRSTR@ 3/2 
*SOV 13-BTS 
Q 50 
 
MORBIUS 16 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
M/CP 145/4 
M/CP 146/2 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Zarathos 
 
T 430-BTS 
*SOV 16-FB pg13pn7 
GR3 43 
*SOV 16 
GR3 44 
 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144/3 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
M/CP 145 
DHOLD 16 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 

Vengeance/Michael Badilino 
*SOV 16-FB pg12pn5 
{GR3 21} 
 
GR3 39 
SOV 12 
*SOV 15 
GR3 43 
*SOV 16 
GR3 44 
M/CP 143 
MORBIUS 16 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
M/CP 146 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Ghost Rider III/Dan Ketch 
 
M/CP 136/2 
*NS 10 
GR3 40 
DHOLD 11 
MORBIUS 12 
*SOV 13 
MSU 3 
GR@ 1 
GR@ 1/3 
GR3 41 
*SOV 14 
MORBIUS 15 
GR3 42 
*SOV 15 
GR3 43 
*SOV 16 
NS 14 
 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144 
M/CP 144/3 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
M/CP 145 
M/CP 146 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
GR3 46 
 

Ghost Rider II/Johnny Blaze 
 
A 118 
*SOV 16-FB pg12pn4 
M/TU 15 
 
NS 10 
*SOV 13 
MSU 3 
*SOV 14 
GR3 42 
*SOV 15 
GR3 43 
*SOV 16 
NS 14 
 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144 
DRSTR3 60 
*SOV 17 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
M/CP 146 
DRSTR3 61 
*SOV 18 
MSU 4 
 

Up next: Blaze: Legacy of Blood 1-4! Why not Spirits of Vengeance 19-23 next? Because SOV 19 tells us to read the Blaze limited series first! How helpful
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 105

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 01:27 am    Post subject: Blaze v1 1-4
By Col_Fury

Blaze: Legacy of Blood #1 
Family Matters 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Ron Wagner 
Published: December, 1993 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Clara Menninger, Seer, Wolf, Kody, Regent, Roxanne Blaze, Craig Blaze-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13: A bar in Pennsylvania 
Johnnys drinking his sorrows away when Clara and Seer try to tell him something about his family, but theyre interrupted by an attacking demon. Johnny kills it, then leaves. 
Later, they go back to meet Kody and Wolf, who tells him his family is missing. Craig calls but is cut off, so Johnny leaves to look for them. 
Pg14: Colorado 
Regent, leader of the Hidden, orders his flunkies to delay Blaze. 
Pg15-pg23: Chicago, two hours after pg13 
Johnny goes to his familys most recent hiding spot, but its wrecked and theyre gone. Hes attacked by ninjas and after a fight, one of them gives him Roxanne. Seer arrives and the place explodes! 

References: 
Johnny mentions the events of Siege of Darkness, and hes in his new status quo: metal covering his missing flesh that was burned away by hellfire. This would place this series after MSU 4, at least. 

The demon mentions that theyve been attacking Blaze for a while now, so more than a marginal amount of time has passed since Siege of Darkness. 

Craig calls on the phone, but we dont hear his voice, or see him on the other end, giving him a BTS for this issue. 

Blaze: Legacy of Blood #2 
Brief Reunion 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Ron Wagner 
Published: January, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Seer, Roxanne Blaze, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Regent, George Waters, Marianne Waters. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: Continued from last issue 
Seer has teleported herself, Johnny, and Roxanne to a hospital, but the ninjas followed them, so Johnny kills them all. 
Pg9-pg10: New York 
Seer teleports them to a hospital in New York. 
Pg11-pg12: Colorado 
Regent bosses the Hidden around. 
Pg13-pg23: near the Canadian border 
Johnny finds George and Marianne, who have Craig and Emma. Theyre attacked by a member of the Hidden, who Johnny beats up. George reveals that Roxanne made a deal with the Hidden, and he works for Regent, then kills his sister Marianne, sticks a knife in Johnnys face, and takes off with the kids. 
Meanwhile, Regent takes Roxanne away from the hospital 

References: 
All in one night, the night after last issue, full moon. 

Blaze: Legacy of Blood #3 
All my Sins Remembered! 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Ron Wagner 
Published: February, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Seer, Kody, Wolf, Quinn, Roxanne Blaze, Regent. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: New York, continued from last issue 
Johnny returns to the hospital to find that Roxanne is missing. Seer notices the knife thats sticking out of Johnnys face, so she teleports them back to 
Pg5-pg8: Quinns cabin 
Quinns cabin, where Quinn, Kody, and Wolf pull the knife out. 
Pg9: Colorado, the next night 
Regent and Roxanne talk about the deal they made, when Johnny attacks! He fights some ninjas, then Regent, who explains that she made the deal to give her kids to him. Johnny isnt happy to hear this, so he causes an avalanche 

References; 
Pg1-pg8: same night as last issue. 
Pg9-pg22: the following night. 

Blaze: Legacy of Blood #4 
Reunion 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Ron Wagner 
Published: March, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Seer, Roxanne Blaze, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Regent, George Waters. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Continued from last issue 
Johnny rises out of the snow and heads towards Regents compound. Once inside, he fights some ninjas, then talks with Roxanne. He then goes looking for the kids, finds them, and Regent returns with George. Johnny kills George, Seer arrives and teleports the kids away, then Johnny kills Regent. 
Pg23: Later 
Johnny, Roxanne, Craig, and Emma play, and Johnny says goodbye to Seer. 

References: 
pg1-pg22: same night as last issues pg22. 
Pg23: some time later. 

This series must occur before Ghost Rider vol3 #50, because Roxanne dies in that issue. Also, this series occurs between issues 20 & 21 of Spirits of Vengeance, once I get to that. 

Quinn appears here, in addition to SOV, so I guess that merits an MCP listing for him. George and Marianne Waters were introduced in SOV 1, when they were helping Roxanne and the kids, and they appear in this series. Also, Kody appears here as well as SOV, and when I was looking around, I noticed that he also appears in two issues of GR3. So there you go. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Kody 
*SOV 4 
*SOV 6 
*SOV 7 
*SOV 9 
*SOV 10 
*GR3 39 
*SOV 12 
*SOV 14 
*SOV 15 
*GR3 43 
*SOV 16 
*BLAZE 1 
*BLAZE 3 

Quinn 
*SOV 12 
*SOV 15 
*BLAZE 3 

Menninger, Clara 
 
SOV 16 
*BLAZE 1 

Seer/ 
 
GR3 45 
M/CP 146 
*BLAZE 1 
*BLAZE 2 
*BLAZE 3 
*BLAZE 4 

Wolf 
 
SOV 16 
*BLAZE 1 
*BLAZE 3 

Waters, Marianne 
*SOV 1 
*BLAZE 2 

Waters, George 
*SOV 1 
*BLAZE 2 
*BLAZE 4 

Blaze, Roxanne Simpson 
 
GR3 22 
SOV 1 
*BLAZE 1 
*BLAZE 2 
*BLAZE 3 
*BLAZE 4 
GR3 50 
 

Blaze, Craig 
GR3 22 
SOV 1 
*BLAZE 1-BTS 
*BLAZE 2 
*BLAZE 4 
GR3 50 

Blaze, Emma 
GR3 22 
SOV 1 
*BLAZE 2 
*BLAZE 4 
GR3 50 

Ghost Rider II/Johnny Blaze 
 
MSU 5/2 
*BLAZE 1 
*BLAZE 2 
*BLAZE 3 
*BLAZE 4 
GR3 50 
 

Up next: Spirits of Vengeance 19-23!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 106

Posted: 19 Jan 2006 08:06 am    Post subject: Drax the Destroyer 1-4
By JLH

------------------------------------ 

DRAX THE DESTROYER #1 [November 2005] 
Writer: Keith Giffen 
Art: Mitch Breitweiser 
"Earthfall" 

Cast: 
DRAX/ARTHUR DOUGLAS 
PAIBOK, CAPT. 
BLOOD BROTHERS 
LUNATIK II 
CAMMI (first appearance. Precocious 10 year old girl. Last name unknown) 
DEX II (first appearance. Cammi's weak-willed guy pal. Last name unknown, and since there's already a "Dex" in the MCP, he'd be the second, if listed at all) 

Other characters: 
Inmates and crew of the Dredge 01 (presumably all die) 
Douglas Brenner (bully at school who taunts Cammi) 
Dex's Sister BTS (said to be teaching Aikido) 
Cammi's Mother, Mavis (passed out drunk on couch) 

Summary: Dredge 01, prison transport vessel en route to the Kyln prison station, currently loaded with Galactic class criminals, begins to suffer a singularity field/hyperdrive failure as it passes by Earth. In Cell Block: Gamma, Lunatik, one of the inmates, feels the ship coming out of hyperdrive. As he argues with one of the Blood Brothers in the cell next door, another neighbor, Drax the Destroyer, seems to be in his own world, until the simple-minded brute makes notice of his listening to the sound of popping. Another nearby inmate, Paibok the Power Skrull, confirms the singularity drive is popping its casing seal and has gone critical, telling them to brace themselves just as the entire ship explodes. On Earth, the town of Coot's Bluff, Alaska (population 2816), at the Elementary School, hard-nosed ten year old girl known as Cammi attends detention, where she's taunted by a bully for sticking up for her wimpy pal Dex, and gets him into more trouble by scaring the goon into shouting by making him think she ate her brother. Soon outside, Cammi meets with Dex, lets him know what happened, and suggests he take self-defense lessons from his sister instead of relying on her to protect her. They spot a "falling star", which, unbeknownst to them, is actually Dredge 01. It crashes not far away, with Lunatik crawling from the wreckage, soon joined by the Blood Brothers, whom he leads in racing away from the location, worried about what the locals will do when they're spotted. The Brothers are confused by the concern, though are given a lengthier explanation by Paibok, who'd taken the form of a squirrel to hide. He notes that Drax has also survived, as he was engineered to, though the brute is off sitting by himself. Meanwhile, at Cammi's house, while her mother lies drunk on the couch, she prepares a TV dinner and flips through the channels on her bedroom TV, finally spotting on a public access channel 23, security camera footage of the Dredge 01 wreck is playing. She calls up Dex and tells him to tune in, figuring it first to be a sci-fi movie filming, pointing out how it seems to be near the rock where she once found Dex after Sally Kimmerman and her friends jumped him (and which he scratched a "bad word"-- dang-- on). The footage cuts off, and she plans for the two of them to go check it out tomorrow. Implication is given that Cammi wished on the "shooting star" for her father, seen only in photo, to return. 

Back at the crash site, the final security pod is destroyed when a Blood Brother hits Drax, causing him to hit back, knocking the red-skinned criminal through the robotic drone. The aliens' attempts to lay low are jeopardized by this action, even worse when the other Blood Brother has to attack Drax in retaliation. As they fight, Paibok mentions to Lunatik that when he found Drax, he was trying to drink singularity-drive plasma spill, which he swallowed a few times before the taste caught up. He leads Lunatik to the "modest human habitat nearby", figuring the Brothers will keep Drax busy enough while they take out insurance. While trading blows in the forest with the Bloods, Drax's dialogue changes drastically, which the pair notices. He seems to be getting more lucid in his comments the longer they battle! Nearby, Cammi leads Dex to investigate what they saw on the television the night before, and they run right into Paibok and Lunatik. 

Quotes: 
Drax: "Quiet now! Drax is listening to the tiny pops!!" 

Paibok: "Skrulls do not skulk. We reconnoiter." 

Drax: "Ooh. You green. Drax green. Green... green. You Drax's Daddy?" 
Paibok: "If that would simplify matters... Yes." 

Continuity notes: Dredge 01's sensors list Earth as "off limits", which ties back to Maximum Security, I'd assume. Lunatik references his having been to Earth before, even brings up the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and an "ex-herald of Galactus" Paibok refers to his one-time partner, whom he thought was stupid, but compared to Drax, is a genius. Paibok is back to his standard Skrull form after a major alteration in "Thing: Freakshow". Lunatik hardly resembles his previously seen self, he's about the size of a normal guy without bulging muscles and his hair is perpetually down over his face, instead of up in the air. His skin and hair color is also entirely different. But since he supposedly can adapt to any new environment, perhaps that's just a sign of his having done so. 

Goofs: The Blood Brothers act like they've never been to Earth before, let alone heard of it! Page 17, panel 1, the word balloon of "The one with the board?" is colored yellow, indicating Lunatik is talking. The next one, "Does it MATTER!?", is colored red, indicating a Blood Brother talking. Lunatik was the one who brought up the ex-herald of Galactus, so the first balloon should be red colored, and the second red. The cover features Drax's new form, which has yet to appear. 

Calendar notes: The issue ends on a Saturday, meaning it begins on a Friday, obviously. No, really. Friday tends to come right before Saturday. I've double-checked all calendars, though I did find one that lacked a Friday, but it lacked every other day of the week as well, so I don't think it should count. Cammi wears her coat all the time, except when in her house. Dex wears a short-sleeve shirt at the end of the first day, which he has on the next morning, though at that time with a vest included. There's green grass and barely a bare tree anywhere, and the only snow is way in the distance on a mountaintop. What that means for time of year reference concerning Alaska is beyond me, but that's what it is. 

Timeframe: 
Pages 1-5: Dredge 01 in space above Earth, Gamma block scene, explosion of ship. 
Pages 6-9: Cammi at detention, meets Dex, both spot "falling star" in sky on way home. 
Pages 10-12: Night at the crash site, Lunatik and Blood Brothers flee, find Paibok, Drax is seen nearby. 
Pages 13-15: Night at home, Cammi eats dinner and watches TV, sees wreck, calls Dex. 
Pages 16-20: At dawn or early morning, Blood Brothers begin to fight Drax, who begins to get smarter as a result. Lunatik and Paibok depart. 
Pages 21-22: Cammi and Dex approach scene, Dex mentions it's Saturday, and they bump into Lunatik and Paibok. 

------------------------------------ 

DRAX THE DESTROYER #2 [December 2005] 
Writer: Keith Giffen 
Art: Mitch Breitweiser 
"Illegal Aliens" 

Cast: 
DRAX/ARTHUR DOUGLAS (dies) 
PAIBOK, CAPT. 
BLOOD BROTHERS 
LUNATIK II 
CAMMI 
DEX II 

Other characters: 
Stu (sheriff) 
Ducret (precocious old woman, dies) 
Macabee (Mayor of Coot's Bluff) 


Summary: So, Cammi and Dex meet Paibok and Lunatik. Cammi says sarcastic things. Paibok is bemused. Dex is petrified. He runs off screaming, though the Skrull isn't worried about his warning anyone. The Blood Brothers continue to battle Drax, who now speaks in full sentences, which makes them believe they're literally beating sense into him. He recalls who they are finally, mercenaries for hire, and offers to let them live if they walk away. They don't, more fighting. Paibok and Lunatik decide to leave Cammi behind, and once they do, Drax falls before her, and in a daze, believes her to be Heather, his daughter. A sudden vision burst, of a car explosion, Thanos, and Moondragon, overtakes his brain. The Blood Brothers notice that the longer Drax goes without a clobbering, the more he slips back to stupidity. They choose to leave him be for the moment, and Cammi, bored, takes advantage of Drax's claims of being "her" father to tell "daddy" that the Brothers hurt her. This sends him into a rage, which she follows with evil glee. Meanwhile, in downtown Coot's Bluff, minor destruction has been waged in front of Macabee's Army/Navy store, where Lunatik holds the sheriff, Stu, captive and torture him unconscious. An old woman, named Ducret, points out that Paibok, asking for the man in charge of the town, wants the mayor, who has been hiding behind a box nearby. Paibok explains that they need hostages against superhuman interference until they can get off-world, and plans to use the citizens of the town also as slave labor to salvage parts from the ship. Ducret gestures her cane at him and retorts, "Up yours", ending up with her twisted around by Lunatik. The two aliens next don some human clothing to replace their torn prison uniforms. Elsewhere, as Drax resumes fighting the Blood Brothers, this time for "hurting Heather", Cammi follows the path of destruction, and finds Dex hiding behind a rock. He follows her, though believing he may have wet himself. Eventually, Drax and the Brothers reach the town. Paibok is told of how the Destroyer is getting smarter, which he suspects is combination of an injury in the crash with his drinking of the plasma spill. Growing tired of watching the battle, Paibok takes the form of Thanos, gaining his attention while Lunatik smashes him in the back. The Power Skrull them turns his hand into a pike, and shoots it through Drax's forehead, coming out the back of his skull. Once he releases, to make sure he's dead, Lunatik stomp on his skull. Cammi, still watching from afar, finds all of this "cool". 

Continuity notes: Ducret mentions the Avengers and "X-Muties". Lunatik again makes clear he's been on Earth before. Drax recalls knowing who the Blood Brothers are (though they don't seem to know much about him that Paibok doesn't tell them). 

Goofs: The cover features Drax with his old costume, which he doesn't wear at all in the mini-series. The scene where Paibok tries to determine what language Cammi will respond to is strangely inappropriate. She understands Drax fully without any change of language, as do the aliens understand him, as well as he them. Yet when speaking to humans, Paibok and Lunatik's word balloons lose their coloring, as a sign that they're speaking a native tongue when their balloons are border colored. Though, then, should the three different colorings mean each one is speaking a different language? Then how do they understand each other? Bah, fergetit. 

Quote: 
Paibok: "Is something wrong?" 
Cammi: "You're green, you smell like the rendering truck and your friend there doesn't seem to have a face. What could possibly be wrong?" 

Calendar notes: It's still the same day, a Saturday, all within the daytime frame following the previous issue directly. Maybe a few hours pass at most. 

------------------------------------ 

DRAX THE DESTROYER #3 [January 2006] 
Writer: Keith Giffen 
Art: Mitch Breitweiser 
"From the Ashes" 

Cast: 
DRAX/ARTHUR DOUGLAS (corpse spawns new body with same consciousness) 
PAIBOK, CAPT. 
BLOOD BROTHERS 
LUNATIK II 
CAMMI 
DEX II 

Other characters: 
Cammi's Mother, Mavis 
Macabee (Mayor of Coot's Bluff) 
Mrs. Abrahms (principal of elementary school. Dies offscreen) 

Summary: Coot's Bluff's population is down to 2135. As the townsfolk stand in the street, cowering in fear before the aliens invading their Alaskan town, Cammi narrowly avoids being killed by the Blood Brothers when asking if she can have Drax's corpse. Paibok finds her delightful, and tells the "pup" to run along to the school with the rest of the children. Cammi tells the Bloods that Paibok just gave her Drax, and one of them picks up the dead body, lugging it off for her. The mayor has the citizens set up into work shifts, and Lunatik's off at the crash site getting started on the salvaging. Paibok warns disobedience equals death, and should too many rebel, he'll target the children. On the outskirts, the Blood Brother tosses Drax's corpse off a cliff. Cammi, undaunted, heads down to find where it ended up, with Dex following. He asks why she's doing this, and she claims that she needs something special in her life right now. She finds Drax, his stomach now smoking, lying on the shore of the river. They wait, keeping an eye on the corpse until sunset, when Dex decides to head back to town, worried about his family. He gets to main street by nightfall, and finding the town dark and empty, heads to Mr Denton's Comics & Candy store (which has on its walls the poster images of the Hulk, Punisher, and Daredevil movies). He uses the blue police call box inside, and finds himself meeting the Doctor!... or rather, facing the harsh reality that it's impossible to reach any super-team by telephone in the Marvel Universe. Back at the beach, Cammi is stunned when she witnesses Drax's corpse begin to crack open, a smaller, slimmer version of him smashing out from the inside! He's also smarter now, and while within the corpse, could sense her psychic bleed-through, and realizes she's indeed not Heather. When asked why he's smaller now, he explains he's restored to being the Destroyer again. He needs her eyes, due to his perception as the brute being limited. A psychic mind-scan of Cammi, with vision flashes of the car crash that killed Arthur Douglas, Moondragon killing Drax's mind some years back, and shots of Paibok killing his body last issue. Drax learns what happened to him, and Cammi sees all of this as a result. He explains Heather is Moondragon, Chronos is one of two who betrayed him by stealing his memories and setting him on this path, and Thanos is his destiny. He also explains the tolerance he's shown her thus far is due to her being close to his daughter's age when she was taken from him. Though restored, he's not at full power yet, finding himself unable to discharge energy from his hands. He heads into town to give payback to Paibok and company, with Cammi following, claiming that "she owns him" now. He needs her help in one matter, namely pants, since he's stark naked. 


Continuity notes: Paibok states he's "First-ranked, Primary Skrull Command. Retired". Dex tries to call the Avengers, but finds the number is not listed. He reaches the Fantastic Four Help Line (555-4444), which has an automated voice, but finds none of the options involve seeking their help, just media and publicity issues. 

Goofs: Cammi asks who Chronos is, yet he makes no appearance in any of the mind visions in either issue. 

Quotes: 
Cammi: (to Dex, when he cries over concern for his parents) "Grow a set." 

Drax: (to Cammi) "What manner of little girl are you?" 

Calendar notes: Still the same day as the last issue and end of first, though we reach dusk and into the night by the middle. 

------------------------------------ 

DRAX THE DESTROYER #4 [February 2006] 
Writer: Keith Giffen 
Art: Mitch Breitweiser 
"Hard Penance" 

Cast: 
DRAX/ARTHUR DOUGLAS 
PAIBOK, CAPT. 
BLOOD BROTHERS (one of which dies) 
LUNATIK II (presumably becomes deceased) 
CAMMI 
DEX II 

Other characters: 
Macabee (Mayor of Coot's Bluff) 
Cammi's Mother, Mavis (as corpse, died offscreen) 

Summary: Cammi accompanies Drax to the X Treme Sports Gear & Supply store, where he not only picks out his weapons to choice (a pair of holstered diving knives), but his attire, blue leather pants with a red design down the side of the leg (oddly not much different than the red designs his new body's shoulders have been born with). They exchange banter. Dex spots them when they depart, and joins Cammi when Drax demands she stay behind. It's now raining, for the record. The two kids exchange comments, then head to the school. At the crash site, Lunatik, who's gone through quite a few human slaves thanks to his short fuse, informs the Blood Brothers that what parts of Dredge 01 weren't fried in the crash self-destructed to keep the humans from using them. All the work done to salvage has been in vain, they can't go anywhere. Drax sneaks in, and with his new super-swiftness (?!), slices off Lunatik's head. Noting that his kind if notoriously hard to kill, and his body would eventually find the head, Drax tells him that, having been there, the afterlife he gets is the one he deserves, and to tell Mephisto Drax sent him, before seemingly crushing his head into a pulp, finishing him off. The Blood Brothers, guiding the humans back to town, overhear Lunatik's death cry, and head over to check it out, finding his headless body tied up between two trees. They're then attacked by the knife-wielding Drax, who sets the humans free, and fights to pair relentlessly, but briefly. He manages to cram both of his knives into one of the Bloods' forehead, killing the red-skinned alien. The other, stunned, vows vengeance, but is unable to act on his threats! Cammi, having told what's happened to Paibok (who briefly takes the form of the school prinicpal), is brought to the scene of the battle by the Power Skrull, who hands her over to Drax, claiming he's soiled her by being around her, and is his responsibilty now. Paibok explains his soldier instincts are of survival, knocks out the remaining Blood Brother, and presses a button on a remote device in his pocket, which he took from a dead guard. It's a folded space distress beacon, he's effectively turning himself in. The two aliens independantly decide there's no purpose in continuing to fight, though Cammi's disappointed, and Drax figures the remaining Blood Brother's life without his psi-bonded twin will be worse than death. The trio wait, watching the stars. The next morning, the survivors of Coot's Bluff, including the mayor, deal with their dead, in need of plenty more body bags. A pair of SHIELD helicopters arrive, a day late and a dollar short. Dex, nearby, informs the bodybagged corpse of Cammi's mom that his parents are okay, all of the alien wreckage's gone, and he believes Cammi is too. He snuck up to the "dang" rock, and found a note, written in blood, apparently not her's, that says "I'm going to be Happy". Dex hopes she gets what she wishes. Meanwhile, in "deep space" (yet within port-window view of Earth), aboard the Prison Transport Vessel Dredge 02, Drax and Cammi find themselves ordered not to move by a pair of nervous guards(?) aiming guns at them! 

Continuity notes: As mentioned in the letter page, the story ends by setting up the upcoming ANNIHILATION project, starting in March. Drax and Cammi will both part of it. Until the Prologue issue comes out, the placement of this tale in the grander scheme is up in the air, but it's obviously at some point in the MU's near future. 

Goofs: Dredge 02's listing says it has 2 inmates, "1 human, 1 unknown". This accounts for Cammi and Drax, but where's Paibok and the remaining Blood Brother?! Also, no mention is made in any issue of why Drax was in prison to begin with. Even stranger is why he decided to go back to it with Paibok, when he's got connections on Earth, such as his daughter. 

Quote: 
Cammi: "Life happened. Mine came without a warranty." 

Calendar notes: Cammi says she's ten years old, and will turn eleven next month. 

Timeframe: 
Pages 1-20 take place the night of the Saturday we've been part of since issue 1's end. Pages 21-22 are the next morning, a Sunday. SHIELD's still in business, so that's not important to mention. Page 23 is, barring any warping of time and space, likely concurrent and part of the Sunday morning. 

------------------------------------ 

The MCP style stuff: 

DRAX/ARTHUR DOUGLAS 
... 
CM5 16 
[She-Hulk appearances] 
**DRAX 1 
**DRAX 2 
**DRAX 3 
**DRAX 4 

PAIBOK, CAPT. [SKRULL] 
... 
FF 383 
[Thing:Freakshow appearances and others] 
**DRAX 1 
**DRAX 2 
**DRAX 3 
**DRAX 4 

BLOOD BROTHERS 
... 
MAXSEC 3 
[New Avengers appearances] 
**DRAX 1 
**DRAX 2 
**DRAX 3 
**DRAX 4 

LUNATIK II 
**[{MCP#172/3}] 
**[MCP#173/1] 
**[MCP#174/3] 
**[MCP#175/4] 
CPU 3/3 
**[LUNATIK 1] 
**[LUNATIK 2] 
**[LUNATIK 3] 
**[THANOS 11-BTS?] 
**DRAX 1 
**DRAX 2 
**DRAX 3 
**DRAX 4 

**CAMMI 
**DRAX 1 
**DRAX 2 
**DRAX 3 
**DRAX 4 

**DEX II 
**DRAX 1 
**DRAX 2 
**DRAX 3 
**DRAX 4

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 07:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JLH. I'll incorporate this into the calendar this weekend and let you know if I have questions.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 09:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'd suggest holding off for now, Paul. The ending appears to be a lead-in to ANNIHILATION, and since the book has no ties to anything else, you might as well just hang back and let those books dictate placement.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 07:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good advice.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 107

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Arana: Heart of the Spider #7-12
By Kevin W.
Director

Chronology Review for Arana: Heart of the Spider #7-12 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by various artists 

As of Issue #12, this series has been cancelled. There is a Arana/Spider-man special supposedly coming out around March, written by a totally different author, which will supposedly bring closure to the Arana character. Itll either be the final time we hear from Arana, or itll be the start of a new lease on life for the character. 

It might help you to reread my analysis of Arana #1-6, but heres a quick refresher course: Anya Corazon is Arana, Chosen One of the Brotherhood of the Spider, a secret law enforcement organization which captures criminals, and whos main enemy is the Sisterhood of the Wasp, (a crime organization). Miguel is her partner, (a mage) and along with Ted and Nina, (members of Webcorps, which is the Brotherhoods front company) they fight the good fight. They are opposed by Vincent, (the mage for the Wasps) and by Amun, (an assassin hired by the Wasps). 

Arana #7 is actually somewhat of a stand-alone story, but serves as a prologue to Issues #8-12. And remember: going by a reference in Arana #5, Arana #7 is 2 weeks after Arana #5. 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #7 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz 

Appearances: We still have yet to learn some of these supporting cast members last names, but Ill go ahead and list them. 

Arana, (aka Anya Corazon) 
Miguel Legar 
Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya) 
Vincent 
Nina 
Ted-BTS (Ted is behind the scenes because Miguel calls him up on the phone and speaks to him, yet we dont see or hear him). 

New characters: Lady Chi aka Chi Fei 
Nataku Fei 

In flashback, we see: 

Gilberto Gil Corazon 
Sofia Corazon 
Anya Corazon 

Synopsis: All events in this issue happen on the same day. Anya starts off the story working on a homework assignment for school. Shes supposed to write up a story about her childhood, but she cant seem to write about her mother, (whom we learned was killed many years ago). 

Anya heads to Webcorps for some training and to attend a meeting. Webcorps new mission is to stop the Sisterhood of the Wasp from hosting a Crime Boss conference over the next few days. Apparently the first crime organization to arrive is the Clan Fei, a Chinese Triad gang led by Nataku Fei, and his daughter Chi Fei, (aka Lady Chi, who has poison touch powers). Lady Chi has refused the Sisterhood of the Wasps offer of protection while in NYC, but Vincent tells his assassin Amun to watch over her from afar while she tours the city. 

Miguel and Arana attack them, with Miguel capturing the elder Fei, (and defeating Amun when the assassin tries to interfere). Arana takes down Lady Chi. The End. 

References: 

Pg. 1 has flashbacks as follows: 

1p1: FB-Anya as a little girl, smiling up at her mommy and daddy, (Gil and Sofia Corazon). 

1p2: FB-Anya and Gil crying over Sofias coffin at her funeral. 

1p3: FB-Anya overhears her father Gil telling some friends that her mother didnt really die in an accident. 

1p4: FB-Gil decides to be honest, and to tell young Anya that a murderer killed her mother. 

Pg. 5: Miguel thanks Nina for helping to train Arana: And Im in no condition to help her right now. SoI appreciate it. I believe his remark about being in no condition to help is a reference to Miguels recovering from his near death experience in Arana #1-6. So the ending of Arana #6 probably happened rather recently. 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #8: 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz 

Appearances: 

Arana, (aka Anya Corazon) 
Miguel Legar 
Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya) 
Vincent 
Nina 
Ted 

New Character: 

Felix Jade 

Synopsis: All events in this issue happen on the same day. This could be the next day after last issue, or it could be a few days later. 

Miguel and Anya share a dream about Anyas childhood, (a foreshadowing of whats to come). They both wake up in their homes and meet at Webcorps. Miguel holds a meeting with Ted, Nina, and Anya, to discuss the next crime lord coming into town to meet with the Sisterhood of the Wasp. Next on their list to capture is Felix Jade, a Mexican Crime Lord. Anya immediately recognizes the picture of Jade from her dream: This is the man supposedly responsible for the death of her mother Sofia. 

Cut to the evening hours: Jade has just arrived in NYC on a private jet, and has just met up with the Sisterhood of the Wasp. Vincent and Amun are escorting him around town. They are being followed by CIA and FBI, (who want Jade captured), but Vincent and Amun elude the Feds and they escape. 

Cut back to the parking garage of Webcorps. Miguel has put off the attempt to capture Jade for a couple of days, (waiting for the CIA and the FBI to give up, before they make their move). But then Miguel catches Anya sneaking out, (shes going to try and take out Jade on her own). They have an argument, and Miguel casts a web spell, pinning her to the wall. She threatens to break out and go after Jade, (shes letting thoughts of vengeance cloud her judgment) and Miguel knows he cant truly stop her, so he calls up Ted and Nina, and says theyre going to go ahead and try and take down Jade tonight, (before Anya can get in over her head and do it on her own). 

References: 

Pgs. 1-3p4: Flashback - These pages contain a flashback to Anyas mothers funeral, (when Anya was around 6 years old). This flashback actually occurs in a dream sequence, (a dream that Anya and Miguel share, by the way)I know we sometimes discount flashbacks that occur within dreams, so I figured Id make note of that. 

Anyway, the dream shows Anya at her mothers funeral, when all of a sudden Felix Jade, (the local crime lord) shows up to pay his respects. Anyas father Gil yells at Jade, demanding he leave the funeral. 

Pgs. 3p5-4p2: FB-Miguel leaves Anyas dream behind, and his dream shifts to his own childhood. We see an image of what I believe to be one of those South American Stone Age tribes. We see what I guess is supposed to be a young Miguel, (a child dressed in tribal garb), watching as his tribes huts are burned down all around him, (were led to believe hes the only survivor of whatever wiped out his tribe). 

Its snowing outside at the start of this issue, (as Anya and Miguel wake up in the morning). From the way they talk, NYC is in the midst of a pretty intense snowstorm. But it apparently doesnt last, because the latter half of the issue, (and subsequent issues) dont show any snow on the ground. At any rate, going by the fact that the last story arc, (Issues #1-6) were set in a school semester, (probably the Fall school semester) then I think the weather here in this issue lines up with that: Its Autumn, and the weather is starting to turn colder. 

And why isnt Anya in school today? Its not the weekend yet, (going by references in later issues). Well, maybe the snowstorm cancelled school. 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #9 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Roger Cruz and Francis Portella 

Appearances: 

Arana, (aka Anya Corazon) 
Miguel Legar 
Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya) 
Vincent 
Nina 
Ted 
Felix Jade 

Synopsis: The same night as last issue, (a short time later). All events in this issue happen on the same night. 

Arana calls upon the power of the Hunter, (which she has been told to never let fully out) and she breaks free from the webs Miguel stranded her in, and she heads off to face Jade. 

Miguel, Nina, and Ted sneak into Jades safe house, (an old warehouse) and set up a trap. Vincent and Jade continue their tour around town. They are now being followed by NY cops, but they elude them. Vincent and Jade make it to Jades safe house, only to be attacked by Miguel and Nina. 

Arana spies Amun on the street, heading to the safe house, and she follows him to it. Arana bursts in and attacks Jade. Vincent casts a spell and he and Jade vanish, escaping Arana. Amun flees the scene as well. Miguel finally convinces Arana to break out of her fury, and the Hunter leaves her. They apologize to each other and agree to work together to stop Jade. 

References: There are numerous references to Ezekiel, (from the pages of Amazing Spider-man) in this issue, but its all so vague, I cant be sure if Ezekiel is whom theyre truly referring to. 

Pg. 5: Miguel and Ted are talking about Nina, and the subject of the former Hunter, (the Chosen One before Arana) comes up. 

Miguel: Nina and I have been working together for a while now, ever since 

Ted: Yeah, I know, thewell, the day HE died. 

He who? Well, we know from a photo on the wall in Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 #4, (Aranas first story arc) that Ezekiel was a member of Webcorps at one time, (I take it that Webcorps mightve been the corporation Ezekiel was in charge of in those issues of Amazing Spiderman). 

Pg. 17: Vincent taunts Miguel, (in regards to Arana starting to go crazy): But it looks like another partner of Miguels is about to go Bonzer-yoyo. 

So Miguel had a previous partner that went crazy. Ezekiel went crazy, right before he died 

Pg. 22: Miguel is giving a stern talking to Arana, about not loosing herself in the Hunter. He says, Because one day, that power would destroy you. And if you dont believe it, my own life is proof enough. My last partner died when he gave the Hunter total control. The Hunter inside eventually killed him. 

So is this another possible reference to Ezekiel? Since the storyline seems to love talking so vague, (and never just comes out and explains anything), Im left with my own conjecture. But thats the theory Ive worked up 

Edit: Its confirmed! The former partner of Miguel is indeed Ezekiel from Amazing Spider-man. From an online interview comes the following quote: 

Spider-Man and Miguel have a history together as they both were friends of the previous Hunter, Ezekiel, now deceased. 

You can read the full interview here: 

http://www.buzzscope.com/features.php?id=1268 

Now why Fiona Avery couldnt just come out and say that in the story itself, is beyond me 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #10 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Frances Portella 

Appearances: 

Arana, (aka Anya Corazon) 
Miguel Legar 
Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya) 
Vincent 
Nina 
Ted 
Gilberto Gil Corazon 
Felix Jade 
Dan Stevens-BTS, (Dan is Gils reporter buddy, from prior story arcs. Gil is talking to him over the phone, but we dont hear his voice, so its BTS). 
Sam-BTS, (as in Samantha. Shes a member of the Wasps who showed up in the last story arc). Vincent talks to her over the phone, (but we dont hear her, so its BTS). 

In Flashback sequences, we see: 

Anya Corazon 
Gilberto Gil Corazon 
Felix Jade 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-10: The next day. Anya wakes up and heads to school. She gets a phone call from Miguel, saying theyve managed to track down where Vincent teleported Jade: theyre now somewhere in the Hudson River Valley just outside NYC. Miguel tells Anya to ask her father for permission to go on a Webcorps seminar outside of NYC for the weekend. 

Anya goes home and asks Gil, and Gil allows her to go, (Gil wants her out of the city. Hes investigating Jades arrival in town, and doesnt want his daughter getting mixed up in all of this). 

Pgs. 11-22: The next day. Vincent and Jade and a bunch of the Wasps are at a Wasp hideout in the countryside. Vincent contacts the Wasps headquarters and speaks to Sam, and starts to plan an evacuation, (suspecting it wont be long before Arana comes for them). Jade is insulted with all of this running away, and declares he will stay and fight Arana. Vincent starts to protest, but Jade uses his mental powers, (yes, hes some sort of telepath) to make Vincent leave. Vincent gets in a car and drives off 

A short time later, Arana, Miguel, Ted, and Nina all attack the Wasp hideout. Arana and Miguel get upstairs and confront Jade. Arana says shes here to avenge Sofia Corazon, (her dead mother) 

References: 

Pgs. 1-10 actually show Anya in school. Miguel asks her to ask her father to go on a seminar trip for the weekend. And when Anya gets home, her father gives her permission to leave that afternoon. That would make pages 1-10 occur on a Friday, (as its the start of the weekend). 

Also on pgs. 1-10, after Anya gets out of gym class, she is confronted by Amun, (who just happens to go to the same school as her). He wants to know why Anya is seeking revenge against Jade. Anya and Amun have a strange heart to heart, and Anya reveals, (in flashback) what happened to her mother. 

5p2: FB-This panel shows Mexico City under Jades control, (apparently hes Mexico Citys version of the Kingpin). The streets are filled with violent gangs. 

5p3: FB-This panel shows Gil Corazon standing outside the scene of a massacre, in which some school kids were killed in the crossfire from Jades cartel and the police. Gil vows to do his job as a reporter and expose Jade for the criminal he is. 

5p4: FB-This panel shows Jade, (along with a bunch of his thugs) coming to Gils house, threatening him with violence if he doesnt stop reporting bad things about him in the newspaper. 

5p5: FB-This panel shows Gil and young Anya, (around 6 years old) standing out front of their house, which is burning to the ground, (with her mother Sofia still in it). Gil and Anya think that Jade had their house burned down. 

5p6: FB-This panel shows Gil and Anya sailing on a boat to America. 

6p1: FB-This panel is a close up of 6-year-old Anya, visibly mad that her mother is dead. 

6p2: FB-This panel is a close up of Anya crying at her fathers side, still mourning the loss of her mother, (theyre in NYC by this point). 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #11 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Jonboy Meyers 

Appearances: 

Arana, (aka Anya Corazon) 
Miguel Legar 
Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya) 
Vincent 
Nina 
Ted 
Felix Jade 
Sam, (as in Samantha) 

In flashback: 

Arana, (aka Anya Corazon) 
Miguel Legar 

Synopsis: Picks up exactly where we left off last issue. 

Amun is doing some research online in regards to the story that Arana told him about Jade killing his mother. Hes found out some disturbing info, (which he doesnt tell us the audience). Sam, (of the Wasps) walks in and tells Amun to go check on Vincent. 

Meanwhile, Vincent continues driving down the road, until he finally snaps out of Jades mental control. Vincent realizes hes been suckered, and spins the car around, heading back to the Wasps hideout, (he has orders to protect Jade, whether Jade wants it or not). 

Meanwhile, back at the Wasps hideout, Arana and Jade do battle. Downstairs, Ted and Nina battle the Wasp drones. Its a stalemate, and Jade realizes he might loose. So he takes control of Aranas mind, and has her attack Miguel, knocking him out. Jade then has her sneak out the back door with him, and they get in a car and drive off, (with Arana driving, all the while under Jades control). 

Ted and Nina go revive Miguel, and they figure out that Jade used his mind powers on Arana. Theyre about to get in a car and chase after them, but just then Vincent pulls up, and the battle resumes between them. 

References: 

Pg. 6: FB-As Arana and Jade start to fight, Arana flashes back to the other night, (in between issues #9 and 10). Miguel and Arana have just finished apologizing to each other, and Arana agrees to work with Miguel again, but she asks that when they meet up with Jade, that she be allowed the chance to fight him alone, without Miguels help. Miguel agrees. 

Theres a full moon in the sky in this flashback. As darkness sets in at the end of this issue, theres a full moon in the sky there as well. I wouldnt put much stock in any full moons that appear in this story arc. Theres also green grass and green trees all around in the Hudson River Valley. So much for that huge snow storm just a few issues prior. 

Arana: The Heart of the Spider #12 
Written by Fiona Avery 
Drawn by Jonboy Meyers 

Appearances: 

Arana, (aka Anya Corazon) 
Miguel Legar 
Amun, (aka Jon Kasiya) 
Vincent 
Nina 
Ted 
Felix Jade 

Flashback: 

Anya Corazon 
Gilberto Gil Corazon 
Sofia Corazon 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-21: Picks up right where we left off last issue. 

Amun arrives at the Wasps hideout to find Vincent doing battle with Miguel, Ted, and Nina. He races off to find Arana. Miguel soon defeats Vincent, and leaves him to be interrogated by Ted and Nina. Miguel flies off to find Arana as well. 

Meanwhile, Arana is still driving along with Jade. Shes trying to break free of his mind control. She finally has a vision of her mother, and she pulls the car over and steps out. Jade realizes shes free of his mind control, and they do battle. Arana kicks his butt, ties him up and tosses him back in the car. They are now next to the edge of a cliff, and so she puts the car in gear and sends the car, (with Jade in it) off the cliff and into a body of water below. 

Amun arrives and tells Arana that hes discovered through his research that Jade DID NOT kill her mother, (though he doesnt say how he found this out, or just who did kill her mother, which mightve been nice to know, Fiona Avery!!!). Miguel arrives as well, and is alarmed Arana sent Jade to his death. She dives into the water to rescue Jade, but when she gets to the submerged car, the door is open, and Jade is gone. Hes escaped. 

A short time later, Miguel has transported Arana back to the Wasp hideout. Arana apologizes for letting things get out of control, and they all forgive her. 

Pg. 22: An epilogue page. This is probably a few nights later. Arana vows to make up for trying to kill Jade. She then hears some police sirens, and heads out on patrol. 

References: 

Pgs. 6 and 7: FB- As Arana is trying to break free of Jades control, she has a flashback, (which is on all of pgs. 6 and 7) to when she was a little girl. She and her father and mother are driving down the road, when they are almost hit by another car, and go off the road into a ditch. Everyones okay, but young Anya breaks down in tears, and is comforted by her mother. 

Theres a full moon in the sky throughout this issue, in pgs. 1-21, and on pg. 22. I think the artist just likes full moons. The trees do have some leaves on them, yet the wind is shown blowing off some leaves, (which might give credit to placing this in the Fall semester, when the weather is changing). 

Thats it for now. The What If framing sequences will be up shortly. Next up is Daredevil: Father and DD2 76-81, (probably work on both at the same time).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 07:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 108

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 04:25 am    Post subject: Spirits of Vengeance 19-23
By Col_Fury

Spirits of Vengeance #19 
Alone! 
W: David Quinn 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: February, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Lord Varnae, Caretaker, Seer-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: Dreamland 
Johnny dreams. 
Pg5-pg8: a warehouse in Brooklyn 
Johnny wakes up and decides to visit Ghost Riders tomb in Cypress Hills. When he gets there, he meets and chats with Vengeance. 
Pg9-pg22: Cypress Hills cemetery 
Lord Varnae eats a teenager and scares the teens girlfriend. He then starts a fight with Johnny, they tussle and Varnae flies away. Caretaker arrives, mentions that Seer helped the girl home, and they chat. 

References: 
This issue is an epilogue to Siege of Darkness, much like Ghost Rider v3 46. 

Johnny mentions that he doesnt have a home to go to, and that his family is still in hiding, placing this issue before Blaze #1. 

An editors box tells us to read the Blaze mini, but thats not much of a placement clue. 

Seer does not appear in this issue, but Caretaker mentions her actions, giving her a BTS. 

All in one night, starting just after midnight, and theres a full moon over Brooklyn. 

Spirits of Vengeance #20 
Picking up the Pieces 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: March, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Kody, Quinn, Wolf, Steel Wind. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: the Adirondack Mountains 
Johnny breaks into a secret government installation and destroys the remains of the Quentin carnival & the bodies of the carnies that were killed in SOV 9-10. He finds Steel Wind whos missing her arms and legs, and rescues her. All the while hes talking to Kody, Quinn, and Wolf over the radio. 

References: 
Johnny mentions that his life is a nightmare, placing this issue before the Blaze mini, where he gets his family back. 

Kody, Quinn, and Wolf are seen on the other side of the radio conversation, giving them full appearances. 

All in one night. 

Spirits of Vengeance #21 
Change is in the Air 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: April, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Kody, Cal, Bern, Wolf, Clara Menninger, Roxanne Blaze, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Miranda Woods, Quinn, Steel Wind. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Bucks County, Pennsylvania 
Kody fights his brother Cal, Johnny shows up and Cal runs away. 
Pg6-pg23: Almost a week later 
Johnny talks to Roxanne, the kids, Wolf, and Clara about Kody, then Clara has a vision about him. Johnny checks in with Quinn about his progress repairing Steel Wind, then leaves for New York with Clara to find Kody. 
When they arrive, they interrupt Kody fighting with his family. After a fight, Kody decides to go back with Johnny and Clara. 

References: 
Pg1-pg5: one night, full moon 
Pg6-pg23: almost a week later, another full moon 

Johnnys family is back, placing this issue after the Blaze mini. 

Kodys real name is revealed as Kodiak, meaning Kody is a nickname. Apparently, his family has no surname. 

Spirits of Vengeance #22 
the Children 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Henry Martinez & Robert Walker 
Published: May, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Kody, Wolf, Miranda Woods, Roxanne Blaze, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Clara Menninger, Cardiac, Vengeance(Michael Badilino), Timothy Woods. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: 50 miles north of New York City 
Miranda is upset, so Johnny, Kody, and Wolf calm her down. Johnny then talks to Roxanne, checks on the kids, then Clara says she might know where Mirandas son may be. 
Pg6-pg22: Manhattan, Child Inc. offices, the next day 
Johnny goes to Child Inc. to ask some questions, when Cardiac attacks! Michael Badilino shows up and together they fight Cardiac. The battle leads them underground where they find a secret laboratory where children are being experimented on, one of which is Timmy Woods. 
Later, Timmy is reunited with Miranda. 

References: 
Pg1-pg5: one night, full moon 
Pg6-pg22: the next day 

Ghost Rider is still dead, Badilinos still a cop, and Johnnys family is still alive, placing this issue at least before Ghost Rider v3 50. 

Spirits of Vengeance #23 
an Ending 
W: Howard Mackie 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: June, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Clara Menninger, Steel Wind, Quinn, Centurious, Carver(& his monkey), Kody, Miranda Woods, Timothy Woods, Wolf, Roxanne Blaze-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: somewhere in New York state 
Johnny yells. 
Pg2-pg3: FB 
Recaps previous stories, no new information. 
Pg4-pg7: somewhere in New York state 
Blaze has Clara look for his kids, instead she senses Centurious. On his way out he runs into Steel Wind, they fight and Quinn breaks it up. 
Pg8-pg9: New York sewers 
Centurious sends some demons to get some people to eat. 
Pg10-pg11: New York 
Johnny looks for Centurious. 
Pg12: FB 
Recaps previous stories, reminding us that this Centurious is the same Centurious seen in GR2 80, no new information. 
Pg13-pg21: New York sewers 
The demons find Johnny and take him to Centurious. Steel Wind arrives and everyone fights. Steel Wind leaves, and Johnny shoots Centurious in the face. 
Pg22: the next day, somewhere in New York state 
Blaze, Kody, Wolf, Miranda, Timmy, and Clara have a funeral for Roxanne. 

References: 
Roxannes dead and the kids are missing, so this issue occurs after GR3 50. 

Pg1-pg21: one day 
Pg22: the next day 

Its a funeral for Roxanne, so her remains would be present underground, giving her a BTS. 

And now, some chronology placement suggestions: 

Cardiac/Dr. Eli Wirtham 
 
ASM 388/3 
*SOV 22 
BCAT 1 
 

Carver 
 
GR3 42 
*SOV 23 

Centurious 
 
GR3 43 
SOV 16 
*SOV 23 

Caretaker 
 
GR3 46 
*SOV 19 
MORBIUS 18 
 

Seer/ 
 
GR3 45 
M/CP 146 
*SOV 19-BTS 
BLAZE 1 
 

Steel Wind 
 
GR3 42 
*SOV 20 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 23 

Menninger, Clara 
 
SOV 16 
BLAZE 1 
*SOV 20 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 23 

Kody, Kodiak 
 
SOV 16 
*SOV 20 
BLAZE 1 
BLAZE 3 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 22 
*SOV 23 

Quinn 
SOV 12 
SOV 15 
*SOV 20 
BLAZE 3 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 23 

Wolf 
 
SOV 16 
*SOV 20 
BLAZE 1 
BLAZE 3 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 22 
*SOV 23 

Woods, Miranda 
 
GR3 39 
SOV 12 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 22 
*SOV 23 

Woods, Timothy 
 
SOV 10 
*SOV 22 
*SOV 23 

Blaze, Roxanne Simpson 
 
BLAZE 4 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 22 
GR3 50 
*SOV 23-BTS 
GR3 77 
 

Blaze, Craig 
 
BLAZE 4 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 22 
GR3 50 

Blaze, Emma 
 
BLAZE 4 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 22 
GR3 50 

Vengeance/Michael Badilino 
 
GR3 46 
*SOV 19 
M/CP 147 
 
GR3 49 
*SOV 22 
GR3 50 
 

Ghost Rider II/Johnny Blaze 
 
MSU 4 
*SOV 19 
*SOV 20 
MSU 5/2 
BLAZE 1 
BLAZE 2 
BLAZE 3 
BLAZE 4 
*SOV 21 
*SOV 22 
GR3 50 
*SOV 23 
GR@ 2/3 
 

Up next: Blaze v2!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 109

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for the What If Specials...
By Kevin W.
Director

What If Specials, (December 2005) 

These specials make for an interesting change of pace: They're all supposedly set in the same alternate dimension! 

Ill keep this short and simple, focusing on the framing sequences for each story. Theres no true order to these specials, theres no start of a storyline, or endeach issue is a stand-alone story. Thus, if we do need an order for these to occur in, I recommend going with the order they were released, (which is as I present them below): 

What if: Featuring Captain America 
What if Captain America Fought in the Civil War? 
Written by Tony Bedard 
Drawn by Carmine DiGiandomenico 

Appearances: Hector Espejo, (aka The Watcher) 

Synopsis: We are introduced to Hector Espejo, a teenage hacker, whose online codename is The Watcher. Due to some upgrades to his computer, hes hacked into the Internet of another dimension! Tonight, he sits there and reads about the Captain America of another universe 

References: 

Hectors room is cluttered with superhero toys and posters. One of these posters is a poster of Elektra. This made me wonder if this was supposed to be the real world, not the Marvel universe, (because Elektra shouldnt be a known superheroshes a killer assassin). But later What If specials plant this more firmly in the Marvel universe. I just write off the Elektra poster as Hector, (through his internet hacking skills) has been lucky enough to gather info on characters like Elektra. He must find her cool, and thus has made a poster of her to put on his wall. 


What if: Featuring Wolverine 
Public Enemy Number One 
Written by Daniel Way 
Drawn by Jon Proctor 

Appearances: Hector Espejo, (aka The Watcher) 

Synopsis: Another night, another story, as Hector continues his research about the parallel dimension. Tonight, he reads about Wolverine in the other dimension 

References: None, really. 


What if: Featuring Namor 
What if Prince Namor of AtlantisGrew up on Land? 
Written by Greg Pak 
Drawn by David Lopez 

Appearances: Hector Espejo, (aka The Watcher) 

Synopsis: Tonight, hes sitting at his computer, investigating Namor. 

References: None, really. 


What if: Featuring Fantastic Four 
What if the Fantastic Four were Cosmonauts? 
Written by Mike Carey 
Drawn by Marshall Rogers 

Appearances: Hector Espejo, (aka The Watcher), Hectors Mom and Dad, (who never get names). 

Synopsis: Tonight, Hector is investigating the Fantastic Four. In this issue, we learn how Hector hacked into this other dimension: 

His narration reveals that he lives in Silicon Valley. My dad works for Bill Gates, and he was a millionaire at, like, twenty-five. His mom works for Intel, and theyre both cutting edge scientists in the computer industry. He basically stole some spare test parts that his parents left lying around, and installed them into his computer, and after that, he was suddenly able to hack into the other dimension. 

The first thing he noticed when he hacked into the other dimension was that Bill Gates was President, and had just won his 2nd term election(which leads me to wonder about the chips that he stole from his father) 

His mom and dad come up to check on him, telling him to get to bed, so he wont be tired for school tomorrow, but he asks for another 5 minutes, to do some research for a school assignment, (or so he sayshes actually looking up info on the other dimensions Fantastic Four). 

At the end of the issue, he shuts off the computer and heads to bed. 

References: Besides what Ive mentioned above 

Pg. 1: Hector narrates, Ive peeked into celebrity bank accounts, seen the Department of Defenses war plans, and even downloaded blueprints from Stark Enterprises. 

So thats a pretty good clue this is set firmly in the Marvel universe. 

Also on pg. 1: Theres a half moon in the sky on this night, the half thats visible is on the right side of the moon, (our left). 


What if: Featuring Daredevil 
The Devil Who Dares 
Written by Rick Veitch 
Drawn by Tommy Lee Edwards 

Appearances: Hector Espejo, (aka The Watcher) 

Synopsis: This one doesnt actually take place at night in Hectors room! Hector is riding to school on the school bus. Hes downloaded a audio novel off of the Internet in the other dimension. The novel is about Daredevil, (who lived in Japan in the 19th century). 

The issue ends with Hector getting off the bus and arriving home, (he spent most of his classes listening to the novel). 

References: Hector has taken to calling the other dimensions Internet the Othernet by this point. 

Pg. 1: Hector narrates, Surfing the Othernet, Im finding out things that nobody else knows. Not even brainiacs like Reed Richards. If he ever saw their version of the Fantastic Four, hed lose it completely. That would seem to indicate the What If: Fantastic Four special has already occurred before this special. 

Also on Pg. 1: Hector narrates, Last night, I drilled down for Matt Murdock. But none of the messboards were speculating about him being Daredevil. Over there, Murdocks a playboy industrialist who wrote a Best Seller (the best seller is The Devil Who Dares which is about Murdocks ancestor in Meiji Japan). As Hector makes mention of it being public knowledge that Matt is Daredevil, this must occur in the present day of the Marvel universe, (after Matts been exposed by the press). It actually might need to occur prior to the Murdock Papers, (as it seems by the end of that story arc, there wont be any more speculation by the public. By the end of the Murdock Papers, EVERYBODY will probably know Murdock is Daredevil). 

Pg. 23: Hector says, Cant wait to get home and start trolling the Othernet. But Ive got a book report due tomorrow, and I havent read anything but web pages for weeks. 

So tomorrow isnt Saturday, (as he has a book report due tomorrow at school) and this has been going on for weeks. 


What if: Featuring Thor 
What if Thor was the Herald of Galactus? 
Written by Robert Kirkman 
Drawn by Michael Avon Oeming 

Appearances: Hector Espejo, (aka The Watcher) 

Synopsis: Tonight, Hectors started recorded his findings on his webcam, to be broadcast on the regular Internet, (for any of his hacking friends who are interested, I guess). As he records, he finishes downloading an info file on whats happened to Thor in the other dimension. 

References: 

Pg. 1: Hector narrates, I havent watched this yet-Im really excited. Its about Thor-the Norse God Guy. We havent seen too much of him these days in THIS dimension. 

So this would seem to occur after Thors death, (and probably before the Civil War miniseries event this summer, around which time there are rumors that Thor is set to come back). 

Thats it for now. The End.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 07:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
this has been going on for weeks.  
<<<

So I suppose we can spread out these framing sequences across weeks of the calendar, with the later ones occurring during the school year. 

Thanks for the analysis, Kevin. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 110

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for DD vs. Punisher #1-6:
By Kevin W.
Director

Daredevil vs. Punisher #1-6 
Written and Drawn by Dave Lapham 

This miniseries is written as somewhat of a tribute to the Punisher and Daredevil stories of the 80s. In fact, it may appear at first glance that this miniseries needs to be set in the past. Punisher is in his classic costume, (complete with those fashionable white gloves), which he hasnt worn in years, and there is no mention of the whole Daredevils secret identity is revealed storyline. There IS however mention of the Kingpin being overthrown, and this story arc is referenced in The Murdock Papersthus, this is almost assuredly set in the present day. I just figure that when Frank chooses to interact with the rest of the Marvel Universe, (by actually hunting super villains, which is what he does here) that he chooses to put on his old costume. Meanwhile, in his regular Punisher MAX title, he chooses not to wear the costume. Or something like that 

The other interesting thing to note is that Punisher narrates in the 1st person in his scenes in the book, while in Daredevils scenes, the narration is in 3rd person. Its a strange change of pace, for a comic book. 

Daredevil vs. Punisher #1 
Good Deeds, Bad Seeds 
Written and Drawn by Dave Lapham 

Appearances: Daredevil, Punisher, Hammerhead, Jackal. New characters: Mr. Bastelli, Mary Bastelli, Martin Bastelli, Hector Nino. 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-8p4: Our story picks up with the Punisher preparing to snipe Hammerhead and Jackal, old school Spiderman villains who have teamed up, in an effort to have Hammerhead become the new Kingpin of Crime. Franks about to snipe them from across the street in an abandoned warehouse, when Daredevil shows up and the two fight. Hammerhead, the Jackal, and their thugs overhear the battle and flee. The police start to arrive, so Punisher retreats, fleeing the scene. 

Pgs. 8p5-22: This occurs A week later. Hammerhead and the Jackal have gone back into hiding. They have turned the top 7 floors of the Mellville building, (a NYC skyscraper) into their criminal fortress. Frank is spying on the place from another rooftop. He heads back to one of his safe houses, only to find Daredevil is there, so he retreats again. 

Walking through the city, he eventually stops for a bite to eat in Bastellis Diner, wherein he sees the local family that runs the diner has been beaten up and lives in fear of local gangster protection rackets. When the local gangsters drop by to threaten Mr. Bastelli some more, Frank starts to pull out his gun, but Mary, (Mr. Bastellis daughter, who bears a strong resemblance to Franks dead wife Maria) convinces him to not turn their restaurant into a war zone. After the thugs leave, Frank leaves out the back door, only to run into Martin Bastelli, (Mr. Bastellis teenage son). Martin is ashamed that his father always cowers to the thugs, so Frank offers to take care of the thugs for the kid. Martin gives Frank the address for where all the local thugs, (led by Hector Nino, a gangster) hang out. 

Frank goes to the thugs bar, and he kills many of the thugs that have been threatening the Bastelli family. Martin has secretly followed Frank and witnesses the massacre, and thinks its the coolest thing ever. Frank tells Martin to head home, and not to tell anybody about what he saw here. 

References: 

Pg. 2: Frank narrates: Since the Kingpin of Crime was taken down, half the east coasts underworld has been in complete chaos. A thousand little would-be emperors scramble for their shot at the big chair. 

This would be a reference to Daredevil overthrowing the Kingpin in DD2 50. I know there are other times in the past when the Kingpin has been overthrown, and if this can be set in the past, then great, but this miniseries is referenced in The Murdock Papers, so it does more than likely occur in the present day. Also, I would put this as being after DD2 56-60, since Daredevil stops thinking of himself as the New Kingpin after that point, (and hes resumed wearing the costume). The Yakuza attack that happened in that arc seems to have been the start of others making a bid to be the New Kingpin, and thats certainly what Hammerhead and the Jackal are up to in this miniseries. 

Pg. 3: Frank narrates, For three weeks, Ive done nothing. Hes saying that hes laid low for three weeks, not killing any criminals, all to draw Hammerhead out of hiding, so he could take a shot at Hammerhead. So Punisher cant be doing anything for 3 weeks before this story arc. 

Pg. 4: Frank calls the Jackal, The Professor, (which seems to be almost a new codename for the Jackal in this miniseries). He narrates, I know this man. Not in the charred remains of the facebut something familiar. The charred remains of the face line seems to indicate that its not a mask that the Jackal is wearing, (it doesnt look like a mask either). How the Jackal came back to life, it doesnt say, but were led to believe this is indeed Miles Warren, returned from the grave. 

Pg. 5: DD says, I warned you what would happen if you didnt get out of my city, Frank. Frank narrates, (about Daredevil): Weve been playing cat and mouse for two months now. I dont know what that specifically means, but I take it to mean that Frank has been trying to avoid Daredevil for 2 months now. Also, notice the way DD says, MY city. The way hes possessive about it would seem to indicate DD thinks of himself as the Kingpinwhich I take as a clue that this is after DD2 50. Of course, DD is in costume, so this is more than likely after DD2 59, (when he actually stops thinking of himself as the new Kingpin). 

Pg. 8: Daredevils 3rd person narration says, A week goes by So this scene, (specifically 8p5 onwards) occurs a week after pgs. 1-8p4. 

Also on pg. 8, the narration says, The heat in Hells Kitchen is unbearable. So Hells Kitchen is in the middle of a heat wave. There was also a record heat wave in the Daredevil: Father miniseries, but I dont believe these two miniseries can be reconciled to occur around the same time. 

Pg. 15: Flashback: When Frank sees Mary Bastelli, he immediately flashs back to his wife and kids, running through the park, hand in hand, laughing, (right before they get shot by the mobsters). I dont believe this is new material. 

Pg. 18: Flashback: As he looks at Mary Bastelli again, he thinks back to his wife lying on the ground, clutching the bullet holes in her chest, bleeding to death. I dont believe this is new material either. 

Daredevil vs. Punisher #2 
The Big Squeeze 
Written and Drawn by Dave Lapham 

Appearances: Daredevil, Punisher, Foggy Nelson, Hammerhead, Jackal, Bushwacker, Mary Bastelli, Martin Bastelli, Mr. And Mrs. Bastelli, New characters: Jimmy Sweets and Swedish Dan. 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-11p3: Around a week has passed since the end of last issue. Word is out on the street that if anyone sees the Punisher, they are to call Hammerhead, so that Hammerheads men can take him out. A store clerk is beaten to death by Jimmy Sweets and Swedish Dan, (two of Hammerheads men) for not calling them up when the Punisher was in the store buying food. 

A short time later, Frank is following Jimmy Sweets and Swedish Dan through the streets. They head down into the subway, where Frank thinks hell get to finish them off, but its a trap by Hammerheads men. Frank manages to turn the tables, and kill all of the thugs, (including Swedish Dan). Jimmy Sweets flees down a subway tunnel, and Frank is unable to catch him. 

Meanwhile, at the Bastelli apartment, while Mr. And Mrs. Bastelli are looking through photos of Martin as a kid, Martin shows his sister Mary that hes bought a gun off of another kid. Martin says hes going to use it for protection from now on, but Mary tells him to get rid of the gun. 

Meanwhile, at the Mellville Building, the Jackal and Hammerhead are having a meeting among the crime lords, wherein Hammerhead consolidates his power as the new leader of the crime lords. 

Pgs. 11p4-23: The next day. At Matts office, Foggy and Matt discuss Hammerhead, and Matt decides to pay Hammerhead a visit. 

Cut to that night. Daredevil breaks into the Mellville Building and issues Hammerhead a warning: Stop waging war on the Punisher, (people are getting hurt in the crossfire). Daredevil says hell take care of the Punisher, and then hell be back for Hammerhead. 

Meanwhile, at a party at some club, young Martin, (who is still carrying the gun) feels confident enough with it in his back pocket to ask a girl out. But the girls boyfriend comes up and beats up Martin. 

Meanwhile, Jimmy Sweets, (who is in hiding) is laying low with his girlfriend in her apartment. The Punisher bursts in and is about to kill Jimmy, but then Daredevil bursts in, and the two struggle. But before Jimmy can escape, Bushwacker bursts in and sets fire to the place, trying to kill all of them!! (thats a lot of bursting in).  

References: 

Pg. 2: The narration for Daredevil states, (speaking about Hammerheads gang), Last week it was the usual beatings and threats. But that was before the Punisher hit three of Hammerheads Meth Labs and killed twenty-three of his soldiers. Since the Punisher was laying low for 3 weeks before Issue #1, then Frank mustve spent the last week between issues tearing into Hammerheads organization. 

Pg. 8: Martin asks his sister Mary, Hey, you know who that guy was that came in the Diner the other night? So that incident with the Punisher in Issue #1 happened the other night. And with the last week reference on pg. 2, this issue probably happens around a week after Issue #1. 

Pg. 11: Foggy, (jokingly) tells Matt, Hey, Matt. Im worried. It says here Bullseye and the Kingpin escaped from prison. Hes just trying to see if Matts paying attention to him, but that would seem to indicate that Bullseye and the Kingpin are indeed in prison at this time. 

Also on pg. 11, Foggy is holding a newspaper, the headline of which reads, Subway Slaying. Which is a reference to the Punisher battle from a few pages prior. So this is the next day after pgs. 1-11p3. 

Pg. 16: The Jackal says, (in regards to the Punisher), I showed him how to channel his anger. I gave him direction. Purpose. Molded him into what he is today. 

Which I suppose is meant to be a reference to ASM #129, (the Punishers first appearance, in which he was working for the Jackal). But I think Frank would contest the notion that he was molded by the Jackal 

Daredevil vs. Punisher #3 
Victory, Now! 
Written and Drawn by Dave Lapham 

Appearances: Daredevil, Punisher, Jackal, Hammerhead, Bushwacker, Mary Bastelli, Martin Bastelli, Jimmy Sweets 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-12: Picks up right where we left off last issue. Everybody flees the burning apartment, with Bushwacker chasing after Frank as they go. Bushwacker states that hes been hired by the Jackal to kill Frank. Daredevil ends up taking Jimmy Sweets to the hospital, (hes covered in burns) and Frank escapes from Bushwacker. 

Meanwhile, young Martin has returned home, (after having been beaten up at a party at the end of last issue). His sister Mary sees him moping around, and she gets him to go with her to another club. He goes to the club and gets freaked out by some of the raunchy dancing going on there, (he is just a teenager after all) and steps out back. Mary comes out to comfort him, but just then, they witness a man from the club starting to beat up his girlfriend. Martin pulls out his gun and scares off the man, and starts to comfort the girl that was getting beaten up. He turns around to see many of the people of the club have stepped outside, and they congratulate Martin for having scared off the thug. Suddenly, Martin has all the friends he could ever want 

Pgs. 13-22: The next day. Daredevil pays a visit to Jimmy Sweets in the hospital, and gets Jimmy to agree to testify against Hammerhead and the Jackal. 

Cut to that night. The Punisher has made a quick trip to Aberdeen Proving Grounds. Aberdeen, Maryland, (a US army base). He breaks in and steals a big bunker-busting bomb, along with a military helicopter. He then heads back up to NYC, and makes an assault on Hammerheads skyscraper. Bushwacker arrives to once again try and take out Frank, but Daredevil arrives on the scene, and beats up Bushwacker, successfully capturing him. Frank takes the helicopter and drops the bomb on top of the skyscraper, blowing out the top floor of the building. Frank drops down out of the helicopter and dashes through the burnt out remains of the skyscraper, but Hammerhead, the Jackal, and all of their men are nowhere to be seen. Frank soon discovers that they were all taken away by the police this afternoon, (Jimmy Sweets agreeing to testify was enough for the cops to come and arrest all of them). 

Frank is mad at Daredevil, who he sees as having prevented him from getting to the Jackal and Hammerhead. He thinks its time to do something about Daredevil once and for all 

References: 

Pg. 3: Punisher narrates, Bushwacker. Never faced him, but read the profile. Ex-CIA. Psychotic. Obsessive. Can turn his right arm into a gun. 

Except I believe that the Punisher HAS fought Bushwacker beforemaybe Franks having memory problems? 

Pg. 19: Bushwacker says, Sfunny, yknow what I found out, Devil? I spent all that time killing mutants. I AM a mutant. The Agency didnt do anything to my arm cept bring out my natural talents. 

I guess thats not really a chronology note, but its something worth noting. 

Daredevil vs. Punisher #4 
Over the Line 
Written and Drawn by Dave Lapham 

Appearances: Daredevil, Punisher, Jackal, Hammerhead, Mary Bastelli, Martin Bastelli, Mr. And Mrs. Bastelli, New Character: Assistant D.A. Thomas Wynn. 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-4: The next day. The Jackal and Hammerhead are locked up at Salamanca Federal Prison in upstate New York. Hammerhead says theyll be out of there soon, once their lawyer bails them out, but the Jackal reveals that hes had their lawyer killed. The Jackal wants to stay in prison. He reveals that while hes been helping to set up Hammerhead as the big boss on the outside, the Jackals set it up so that he himself is the boss on the inside of prison! The guards are under the Jackals payroll, and hes able to run their criminal empire from the inside of the prison now. 

The Punisher is in the woods outside of the prison, spying on it, starting to form a plan how to make the Jackal pay. 

Pgs. 5-8p2: The next day. In the evening hours, Daredevil pays a visit to a woman whose husband is in prison with the Jackal. She just went and visited her husband that day, and she acted as a courier, delivering a message to a thug on the outside, (it was an order by the Jackal for a hitman to kill a judge). Daredevil says he stopped the hitman from killing the judge, but the Punishers already killed the man who hired the hitman. (All of these events mustve occurred today). The woman says she didnt know she was passing along an order to kill a judge. Daredevil warns the woman to get out of NYC, saying the Punisher might come after her. 

Pgs. 8p3-9p1: The next day. Matt Murdock talks to Assistant D.A. Thomas Wynn, asking Wynn to investigate the Jackal, to see how hes running the prison. Wynn says hell look into it. 

Pgs. 9p2-14p4: The next day, (actually, its the next night): Thomas Wynn has been killed by the Punisher, (supposedly the Assistant D.A. was corrupt, and on the Jackals payroll). Daredevil believes Wynn was innocent, and that Franks crossed the line. He discusses the Wynn shooting with a friendly detective who likes Daredevil, (this detective never gets a name throughout the miniseries). 

Meanwhile, at Bastellis Diner, Mary and Martin are happy for the first time in ages, (since Martin used the gun last issue to scare off that thug). But just then, into the diner walks a couple of gangsters, who are there to shakedown Mr. Bastelli for money. Martin pulls out the gun and kills the gangsters. 

Pgs. 14p5-21: The next night, (or it could be a few nights later, going by a reference next issue). Meanwhile, Daredevil has been searching all over town for the Punisher. He finally finds the Punishers van parked down by the river. Its a trap set by the Punisher, but Daredevil evades, and the two do battle. Punishers getting more and more angry that Daredevils interfering with him, and in a fit of rage, Punisher lets his trigger finger get the better of him. He accidentally shoots a hobo standing around next to the river. Daredevil knocks out the Punisher and rushes the hobo to the hospital. 

Meanwhile, back at the Bastelli household, the police finish up their questioning of the Bastelli family in regards to the shooting at the Diner. Mr. Bastelli has had his son leave to go visit the boys aunt in New Jersey, (where he thinks Martin will be safe). The police offer protection to Mr. Bastelli, but he refuses, making the police officers leave. Mr. Bastelli thinks everything will be allright if he pays off the gangsters, but now that the police have left, the gangsters arrive to pay the family a visit 

References: 

Pg. 1: The Jackal tells Hammerhead, (in prison): Typical. I leave you for one day, and youre already back to your old thuggish ways. Since the two were arrested last issue, I take it that the one day reference means this is the day after the end of last issue. 

Pg. 9: A newspaper headline reads, Prosecutor Killed. Police hunt for the Punisher in connection with A.D.As slaying. The newspaper article details how the Punisher visited Thomas Wynn at his house, and blew him away. Interesting part is as follows: 

At least six people witnessed the execution and reported the Punisher was yelling he has a message to anyone who helps the Jackal. By all reports, the costumed criminal known as the Jackal is believed to have died some years ago. 

That line seems to match up with the view of some of the readers, some of who have said, Didnt the Jackal die years ago? If the media doesnt know the Jackals still alive, the police must know it, (since they have him locked up in prison now). 

Pg. 10: The police detective whos friendly to Daredevil asks DD, Sure you dont want to come inside for a bit and warm up? We got cocoa! Its raining outside in this sequence, and the detectives line seems to indicate its cold outside. So much for that heat wave from Issue #1. The rain in this issue mustve brought in some colder weather. 

Pgs. 14p5-16p1: Its raining outside in this sequence as well, (as Daredevil interrogates people to find out where the Punisher is hiding). Later on in the issue, when Daredevil and the Punisher fight, it has stopped raining, (though the ground is still wet outside). 

Daredevil vs. Punisher #5 
The Unraveling! 
Written and Drawn by Dave Lapham 

Appearances: Daredevil, Punisher, Mary Bastelli, Martin Bastelli 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-7p2: The same night, a short time after the end of last issue. The Punisher wakes up on the street, climbs back into his van and drives away. Daredevil takes the hobo to the hospital. The doctors operate on the hobo, and he survives, (meaning Frank didnt take an innocent life after all). 

Inside his van, Frank overhears on the news about the Bastelli family being assaulted. He wants to check on Mary, (the girl who looks like his dead wife), and also he wants to check on the hobo he accidentally shot. 

Pgs. 7p3-22: The next day. Frank puts on a disguise and heads to the hospital. While Frank is checking in on Mary, (who is unconscious) Martin bursts into the room to check on his sister, (he came back from his aunts house in New Jersey the instant he heard his family had been assaulted). Frank suddenly realizes that Martin is still in danger, (Hammerheads gangsters are looking for payback, and Martin makes for a good witness at a trial). Frank takes Martin out of the hospital, just as some gangsters and crooked cops arrive to kill Martin. Frank kills them instead as they step out of the hospital. 

Martin escapes from the Punishers grasp and flees. Frank figures out the boy is heading back to his apartment, and Frank heads there. Inside the apartment, Frank finds Martin crying in his room. Franks danger sense kicks in and he realizes that the gangsters have arrived, to kill Martin. The apartment complex turns into a war zone, as Frank starts blowing away the gangsters. The police arrive outside, and Daredevil arrives by rooftop, and the final stage is set for a showdown between Daredevil, the Punisher, and the last remnants of Hammerheads gang. 

References: 

Pg. 6: At the hospital, Daredevil meets up with his police detective friend again. The police detective tells Daredevil, The other night, a sixteen-year-old kid decided to play cowboy and shoots a couple of Heavies trying to shake down his pop. Tonight, they kill his dad, his moms hanging by a thread, and theres an older sister-I cant even tell you what they did to her. 

That puts the shooting from last issue as happening the other night, and the end scene from last issue, (with the bad guys breaking into the Bastelli apartment and assaulting the family) as occurring tonight, (the same night that DD has taken the hobo to the hospital). 

Its raining in the early scenes in this issue again, (as Frank wakes up, and while Daredevil takes the hobo into the hospital). 

Pg. 10: Flashback: Frank, (while gazing at the unconscious form of Mary Bastelli) has a flashback to him holding his wife as she lies on the ground, dying in his arms. I dont believe this is new material. 

Daredevil vs. Punisher #6 
The Second Chance 
Written and Drawn by Dave Lapham 

Appearances: Daredevil, Punisher, Martin Bastelli, Mary Bastelli, Mrs. Bastelli, the Jackal 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-17: Picks up right where we left off last issue. Punisher and Daredevil kick the @#$% out of each other. Martin tries to get them to stop fighting. Daredevil is accidentally struck by a bullet from Martins gun. The remaining bunch of Hammerheads gangsters burst in and open fire, killing young Martin. Frank kills the gangsters. A swat team finally arrives, and bursts in, (one of them hitting Frank with several bullets). Martin is dead, and Frank is hauled off to the hospital and jail. 

Pgs. 18-22: This scene takes place several days, (maybe even weeks) later. Matt Murdock has recovered from his wounds already, (maybe he checked himself in with the Night Nurse again), and is reading a newspaper in his office. The newspaper headline reads, Punisher Sentenced to Salamanca, (the same prison as the Jackal). Theres also a smaller headline on the newspaper, which reads, Crime Rate Continues to Rise. 

Frank is recovering in the hospital ward of Salamanca prison. Hes reading a note from Mary Bastelli, (who is just now being checked out of the hospital. Shes made a full recovery). Marys letter says she wants to thank the Punisher for trying to save her brother Martin. She urges Frank to keep on fighting crime, and says that she and her mother are going to be just fine. One of the medical staff at the prison tries to give Frank some medicine, but Frank realizes its poison, and shoves it down the persons throat, killing him. Frank says hes going to get the Jackal this time for certain, (and we cut to see the Jackals worried face, as he realizes that Frank is now in the same prison with him). 

The End. 

References: 

Pgs. 1-4p1: Flashback: These pages show once again the classic scene of Frank and his family in the park that fateful day. I dont know if it matches up entirely with older versions, (it certainly doesnt match up with the Punisher MAX version of how Franks family died), so Ill detail it: 

Frank and his wife Maria are lying on a blanket in each others arms, when Franks kids decide its time to play tag. His kids and his wife take off running, and he runs after them, and they step through some brush, when they stumble across a bunch of gangsters hanging another thug, and gutting the thug like a fish. They turn around and shoot Frank and his family, because they are witnesses to this execution. 

In other versions, I believe Frank and his family just happened to be walking along, when they got caught in the crossfire between two warring crime gangs. So I dont know how well this version lines up with whats officially canon. 

Pgs. 10: A news reporter says, (about Martin Bastelli): The teenager himself was the victim of a horrible tragedy. His entire family was assaulted last night. So that means the final part of Issue #4, (and the beginning part of Issue #5) happened Last night. 

Thats it for now. Next up is probably a review for Arana #7-12. Im also working on the remainder of DD: Father, and getting ready to review DD2 76-81, (the Murdock Papers arc), all of which should be done by the end of January. Like I said earlier, January should be a better month for reviews than December was.
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Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Pg. 3: Punisher narrates, Bushwacker. Never faced him, but read the profile. Ex-CIA. Psychotic. Obsessive. Can turn his right arm into a gun. Except I believe that the Punisher HAS fought Bushwacker beforemaybe Franks having memory problems?  
<<<

Well, it's either Frank or Lapham. The Punisher fought Bushwacker in PWJ 12-13. Man, is no one doing their homework at Marvel these days?  

Thanks for the analysis, Kevin.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Jan 2006 05:42 am    
By rhod

Yeah, but Framk can't seem to remember how his family were killed. Fighting a second-stringer once long ago could quite easily be forgotten  

As far as witnessing the execution goes, the way it was shown in various issues of War Journal was that Frank and his son were flying a kite, and chased it through some bushes, stumbling across the hanging. (at least that's how I remember it, I don't have time to dig up the actual issues right now). 

BTW, I also choose to believe that members of a rival Mafia family also found the execution as it took place, kicking off a gunfight, and allowing both classic and Ennis origins to be true.

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Posted: 14 Jan 2006 05:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
BTW, I also choose to believe that members of a rival Mafia family also found the execution as it took place, kicking off a gunfight, and allowing both classic and Ennis origins to be true. 
<<<

Anyone care to put together a panel-by-panel sequence incorporating unique scenes from all the various flashbacks that have been published over the years?
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Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Jan 2006 07:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm trying to figure out where this story arc occurs relative to the Punisher's own comic. Ideas?
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Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Jan 2006 12:38 pm    
By rhod

I don't think it matters that much, Frank doesn't change a lot between this and his other appearances, other than that he's wearing the old black-and-white gear. 
Personally I have this before The Cell (purely for convenience, since he ends DD/P in prison and starts in prison in The Cell. I know it doesn't work perfectly) which I have between PUN7 18 & PUN7 19 (due to publication order more than any other reason). 

Thinking about it now, it might fit better after the PUN7 19-24 arc, since Frank's rampages in that story could conceivably be the final straw that broke DD's 'tolerance' of his methods.

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Posted: 24 Jan 2006 09:50 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Personally I have this before The Cell (purely for convenience, since he ends DD/P in prison and starts in prison in The Cell. I know it doesn't work perfectly) which I have between PUN7 18 & PUN7 19 (due to publication order more than any other reason). 

Thinking about it now, it might fit better after the PUN7 19-24 arc, since Frank's rampages in that story could conceivably be the final straw that broke DD's 'tolerance' of his methods. 
<<<

If temporal references mean anything here, your original order would work. I have PUN7 13-18 ending in early June. Then we could have DDVP 1-4 occurring during the heat of the summer in August, followed by PUN7 19-24 and its bare trees and snow. 

I'm spacing now, though..."The Cell?"
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Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Jan 2006 10:32 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Frank's placement is more dictated by Daredevil's chronology, rather than his own. This must occur before the "Murdock Papers", (going by a reference to this story arc in "Murdock Papers"). 

Each of Garth Ennis' story arcs in Punisher MAX are self contained, (and all are 6 issues long). Months pass in between each story arc, (for instance, PUN7 #19-24 occurs around "a year" or "A year and a half" after PUN7 #1-6). 


PUN7 #7-12 occurs well after DD2 50, (in which Matt becomes the Kingpin), thanks to a comment made by the Punisher that they've cleaned up Hell's Kitchen. So going by Daredevil's chronology, Frank's appearance in DD vs. Punisher probably occurs between #7-12 and #13-18, or between #13-18 and #19-24...or between #19-24 and #25-30. 

Quote: 
>>>
Personally I have this before The Cell (purely for convenience, since he ends DD/P in prison and starts in prison in The Cell. I know it doesn't work perfectly) which I have between PUN7 18 & PUN7 19 (due to publication order more than any other reason).  
<<<

I believe we've written off "The Cell" being canon because of one too many changes to Frank's origin...(I think Paul has a good idea in that somebody out there needs to try and compare all of the different Punisher "origin" sequences). 

And besides, Frank deliberately states in "The Cell" that he turned himself into the police, so that he could get into jail.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Jan 2006 10:37 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
If temporal references mean anything here, your original order would work. I have PUN7 13-18 ending in early June. Then we could have DDVP 1-4 occurring during the heat of the summer in August, followed by PUN7 19-24 and its bare trees and snow. 
<<<

Works for me.  


Quote: 
>>>
I'm spacing now, though..."The Cell?" 
<<<

It was a one-shot that came out early last year...in it, Frank allows himself to get caught by police, so he can be thrown in prison...which is what he wanted, so that he could get a shot at the men directly responsible for the death of his family, (though in all other Punisher tales before now, the men directly responsible for the Castle family's death were among the first to die when Frank became the Punisher)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 25 Jan 2006 06:20 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Frank's placement is more dictated by Daredevil's chronology, rather than his own. This must occur before the "Murdock Papers", (going by a reference to this story arc in "Murdock Papers").  
<<<

That sounds good. Kevin, I know you're working on this now, but is there a problem with putting the Murdock Papers story arc after a summer setting of DDVP? I picked up DD2 78 in the quarter bin and noticed two things: 1) Elektra is now leading the Hand, so it's after W3 31 -- that's no problem; and 2) Cage refuses to say anything to reporters about the Avengers, which leads me to believe that Murdock Papers occurs after the big press conference we're expecting in today's A4 15. That, too, is no problem for me, although I seem to recall someone suggesting that DD2 76-81 should occur before A4 14 because Maria Hill appears in Murdock Papers -- not an issue, though, if Fury is not reinstated in A4 15. Ah, it all comes back around to Nick Fury's $%^&* chronology, doesn't it? That LMD theory is lookin' mighty good...
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Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Jan 2006 11:15 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
That sounds good. Kevin, I know you're working on this now, but is there a problem with putting the Murdock Papers story arc after a summer setting of DDVP?  
<<<

That shouldn't be a problem...but you're right, it's really all going to boil down to how we address Nick Fury's chronology... 

Quote: 
>>>
picked up DD2 78 in the quarter bin  
<<<

I'm just curious, but how can an issue that is only a couple months old end up in the quarter bin? Was it damaged a bit? We don't even have quarter bins at my comic book store, instead we have 50 cent bins...and we never get such recent issues as you seem to get, for such cheap prices... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 26 Jan 2006 06:22 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

No damage...warehouse overstock. Westfield Comics does their annual inventory at the beginning of the year and they put out all their overstock in the quarter bins. They want this stuff to move...and it does, as you can inagine! Truth be told, I picked up about 150 Marvel comics from the last two years in those bins. I'm zipping through them and doing a last double-check against entries in the calendar. My mind is getting fried...
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Paul B.

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Thread 111

Posted: 28 Mar 2005 09:52 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for DD2 #66-70!
By Kevin W.
Director

Chronology Review for Daredevil #66-70 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

As of this storyline, BMB goes back to what I call his "Pulp Fiction" narrative style where he jumps back and forth in time. As such, for this storyline, I'm just going to lay all of the events out in chronological order. In truth, it's another chronology nightmare to sort out, but maybe we can all sort it out together... 

The basic gist of the storyline is that before there was Wilson Fisk, the Kingpin, there was Alexander Bont, the 1st Kingpin. Bont supposedly ran most of New York, from WWII to the early days of Daredevil's crime fighting career, at which time DD, (in his yellow costume) took Bont down. The story jumps back and forth between 3 time periods: The Golden Age, the Silver Age, and the Present day. Let's get this started: 

The Early 1940's DD2 #66: pgs. 3, 4: This is somewhat tricky to explain: This is a double page spead, the top half show Alexander Bont in the present, looking around the streets of Hell's Kitchen. The bottom half shows Alexander Bont in the early 1940's, looking around the streets of Hell's Kitchen. So page 3, panel 1, and Pg. 4, panel 1, are in the present day. Pg. 3, panel 2, and pg. 4, panel 2, are set in the past. 

Reference: It's snowing hard outside in this scene set in the past. 

DD2 #66, pgs. 5-11: Continuing the scene from pages 3, 4: A young Alexander Bont, (who's nothing more than a street thug) meets up late at night in a warehouse with a group of German spies. They're about to perform some sort of exchange, (Bont has apparently stolen some diamonds for the Germans, and the germans are going to pay him for the jewels). But just then, into the scene burst the Golden Age "Angel" who beats up the german spies and chases Bont, (who scoops back up the diamonds). Bont evades both the Angel and the spies, (who are firing at him for fleeing with the diamonds). 

He then rushes back to his home, where he wakes up his girlfriend Lucy, and tells her to pack up and they need to flee. Lucy informs Bont that Lucky Luciano was shipped back to Italy this morning, and that no one's in charge of the mafia now. This is news to Bont, who's been busy with the jewel heist all day. Bont reconsiders his plans, and decides to use the jewels to try and buy his way into a high ranking position in the mafia. Bont is looking to replace Luciano, and to become the Kingpin of Crime. 

DD2 #67, pgs. 8-13: Bont is now shown holding a meeting among the crimelords of NYC. The other crimelords are skeptical of Bont, whom they can tell is trying to take over Lucky Luciano's control of NYC. Just then, in through the window burst the Golden Age hero "The Defender", who starts beating up many of the gangsters there. All of the gangsters fall into disarray, about to flee, when Bont manages to sneak up behind the Defender and shoots him in the back of the head, killing him. We're later told that this kill was what cemented Bont as a major crimelord. 

References: 

One of the crimelords says, "So one minute you're selling diamonds to krauts, the next you want to run the Kitchen." So it's not too long after the last Golden Age scene. Bont also says that "there's a war on", (WWII). So we're in the middle of the war. 

DD2 #68, pgs. 1,2: Picking up right where the last chronological scene left off, this is a simple two-page spread showing Bont and the gangsters standing over the slain body of the dead Defender. 

The Silver Age: It's hard to get more specific than that, though, but these adventures are supposed to be set during Daredevil's earliest adventure days. That doesn't really help much though, (read on to see what I mean). 

Please note: These scenes are abstract, and could be spread over a few short days, or weeks, months, or even years, if needed. 

DD2 #66, pgs. 12-16: Daredevil, (in his yellow costume) busts into Bont's private restaurant, and beats up Bont's bodyguards. He then confronts Bont, (who's sitting down for a bite to eat next to his wife Lucy). Daredevil says that "The Fixer" (some thug who fixes fights) ratted out Bont, (what crime he was "ratted out" about is unclear). Bont denies being involved in any crime, but just then, into the restaurant burst the FBI. Daredevil slips away, and the FBI arrest Bont. Daredevil set something into motion that finally got Bont arrested. Bont and his wife look to be in their 50's or 60's by this "Silver Age" scene. 

DD2 #67, pg 3, (panel 7 of 7) - pg.7: Bont pays a visit to Melvin Potter, (the Gladiator). Melvin owns his own store, and is on parole, but Bont blackmails him, demanding Melvin become the Gladiator again and go and kill Daredevil. 

References: Melvins says, "I thought you got yourself arrested". Bont says, "I did. Out on bail." When at first Melvin refuses, Bont asks what Melvin is doing these days, and Melvin says he's on parole, and making a living making costumes. It looks like similar to what the old man was doing from Amazing Spiderman #502: designing superhero costumes. There's even a Daredevil costume hanging up, along with what appears to be Captain America's shield. Bont says to Melvin, (referring to Daredevil): "You've got a history with this idiot." Which would put this after the first time the Gladiator and DD fought in Daredevil #18. The problem? Daredevil wasn't wearing his yellow costume by DD# 18. The "Silver Age" part of this storyline is supposed to be set when DD was wearing his yellow costume. So I don't know how to resolve this... 

DD2 #67, pgs. 16-20, (panel 1, of 7): Bont is at Matt Murdock's office, trying to hire Murdock to represent him against the FBI, (who are charging him with all sorts of crimes). Murdock, (smiling inside) turns Bont down. Bont threatens Murdock, but Matt just shrugs Bont off, saying he's having his receptionist transcribe this meeting, and if Bont threatens him again, he'll call the police. 

References: Bont says, "You're two minutes outta law school and I'm offering you a paying gig." It's a broad statement, but didn't Matt graduate from college shortly before DD #1, (wherein we see he's started up a law firm with Foggy Nelson?) 

DD2 #68, pgs.7-12: Melvin, (in his Gladiator costume) is now out on the streets of New York, fighting Daredevil, (who's in his yellow costume). Melvin created some sort of public disturbance to get DD's attention, and now they're doing battle. DD defeats Melvin, and gets him to confess that it was Bont who hired him. DD takes Melvin and dumps his unconsious body onto Bont's car outside a strip club Bont owns. Bont comes running out, and DD taunts him. The police pull up just then... 

DD2 #69, pgs. 11-12: Matt and Foggy are at their office. Foggy is chewing Matt out for getting Melvin Potter off from any criminal charges. Matt says that Melvin was being blackmailed by Bont, and deserves a second chance. Just then, the secretary bursts in with news from court: Bont has just been sentenced in Federal court, and is going to jail for a long time. 

DD2 #68, pg 13: Matt, (in his yellow DD costume) watches from a roof top nearby as Bont is loaded up onto a prisoner bus to be taken out to Riker's. Bont sees DD, and frowns. DD smiles. 

DD2 #70, pg. 24: Cut to a seedy criminal type bar. Into the bar walks a thug. He tells the bartender behind the counter that Bont just got sent to jail. We then see the bartender is Wilson Fisk, (working a day job in between his nights as an up and coming gangster?). Fisk says to the thug, "Maybe we should take a ride out to the Kitchen. See what's what." Obviously the story is saying that just like Bont heard the news of Lucky Luciano's end, (and Bont rose to become Lucky's replacement, the new Kingpin), Fisk has heard the news of the downfall of Bont, and is now going to make a play at rising up through the ranks, (eventually to become the new Kingpin of Crime). 

DD2 #69, pgs. 3-6: Narrative caption reads, "Years ago". Doctor Octopus is, (along with some henchmen) robbing a jewelry store, when in bursts Spiderman, Daredevil, and the original White Tiger. DD and Spidey both note they just happened to be in the neighborhood when the heard the commotion from the jewelry store. The three heroes quickly defeat the thugs, but it's the White Tiger who finishes off Doc Ock. 

References: DD asks who the White Tiger is, and Spidey introduces the two, saying, "White Tiger, Daredevil. Daredevil, White Tiger". So this is the first time these two have met, (though from the way it sounded, Spidey's already met the White Tiger). The bad news: DD is in his yellow costume. And as I recall, the White Tiger came out in the early 70's. That yellow costume was supposedly only for a short period in the early 60's, Bendis! We might just have to write these yellow costume appearances off as, "My red costume was in the wash." Question: Before this published meeting between DD and the White Tiger, when was the first time these two encountered one another? It probably contradicts this appearance... 

The Present Day: 

DD2 #69: Pgs. 1, 2: Narrative caption reads, "Riker's Island Penitentiary. 14 Months ago." Bont is eating lunch in prison, when a fellow convict walks up to him and hands Bont a copy of "yesterday's paper". Bont stares at the headline in shock. "Yesterday's paper" is, of course, the now classic Daily Globe headline revealing Matt Murdock to be Daredevil. So it's the day after the headline came out. 

DD2 #68: Pgs. 3, 4: Narrative caption reads, "Last Year." We see a two page spread showing Matt Murdock kneeling next to the slain body of Hector Ayala, (the White Tiger), on the steps of the Courthouse, (shown in DD2 #40). 

Please note: From here on out, all scenes before the "Yesterday" sequence between Matt and Agent Del Toro are somewhat abstract. By that I mean, they can be spread out over a few days if needed, (indeed, some scenes seem to indicate that some time passes after Bont is released from jail but before he impliments his plan against Murdock). 

DD2 #69: pg. 14: Narrative caption reads, "14 days ago." Inside the prison courtyard, a drug deal happens between Bont and some other thugs. Bont apparently ordered some MGH, (mutant growth hormone), and his order has come in. One thug warns Bont not to use it in here, because the drug gives you superpowers temporarily, and the guards could trace the drug back to the prison dealer. Bont says it's not for use here, he says he's "out of here in a few days." 

DD2 #66, pg. 18: Now here's where things get wierd. This is the exact same scene as shown in DD2 #61: the scene where Matt Murdock was being questioned by the reporters after the Daily Bugle published a new story on 'The Murdock/DD connection'. It's the scene where a reporter asked "Are you Daredevil?" and Murdock responds, "I answered it a year ago." The only addition to the scene is now we see Alexander Bont is one of the people in the crowd, watching as the press questions Matt. 

References: Problem: This scene happened back in DD2 #61. Yet we are told that Alexander Bont is getting out of jail at the end of DD2 65. Yet since we see Bont in the crowd now, Bont must've been released just prior to the events of DD2 61. One possible answer? The small tidbit of info on Bont being released from prison happened in a scene at the FBI headquarters at the end of DD2 65. That's another issue where the narrative jumped around all over the place. Just place that scene in Issue 65 as happening just prior to #61. That's about the only thing I can think of to do. 

This scene would also appear to be happening in the middle of Bont's tour of Hell's Kitchen, (fresh out of prison, as shown throughout Issue 66). But that would make for a messy merge of DD2 61-62, and DD2 66-70, (which probably wouldn't work). The solution, I think, is to move this scene as happening prior to other scenes after Bont was released from prison, (as shown on this chronology chart I've created). There's something to back that line of thought up as a matter of fact: There's snow outside in all of the other scenes showing Bont wandering Hell's Kitchen, (in DD2 #66). Yet in this small one page scene reshowing the reporters and Matt, (from DD2 #61), it's NOT snowing. Yet it's snowing in scenes before and after this in issue #66. So I think that provides an excuse to move this scene around. So after Bont was released from prison, the first time we see him, he's at the scene where Matt's being bugged by reporters as he heads out to dinner. The next time we see Bont, he's taking his tour of Hell's Kitchen. 

DD2 #66: Pgs. 1, 2: Alexander Bont steps out of a taxi onto the streets of Hell's Kitchen. He looks around, and doesn't even recognize Hell's Kitchen anymore. 

References: Bont stops by a newspaper stand, and glances at the newspaper headlines. The two headlines I can make out read, "Mutant Terrorism on the Rise", and "Captain America speaks out agains war". That is indeed how they spelled, "against". Seeing as they can't spell correctly, that newspaper obviously must've been mistaken on Cap. America's political views on the war.  

DD2 #66: pgs. 3, 4: This is somewhat tricky to explain: This is a double page spead, the top half show Alexander Bont in the present, looking around the streets of Hell's Kitchen. The bottom half shows Alexander Bont in the early 40's, looking around the streets of Hell's Kitchen. So page 3, panel 1, and Pg. 4, panel 1, are in the present day. Pg. 3, panel 2, and pg. 4, panel 2, are set in the past. 

References: It's snowing hard outside in this present day scene. 

DD2 #69, pgs. 20, 21: Narrative caption reads, "Two days ago". Bont is standing near the newspaper stand, with the snow falling outside. He looks across the street and sees, "Potter Costumes." He goes inside and confronts Melvin Potter, (who's running his own costume business again). Melvin raises a baseball bat and tries to beat up Bont, but Bont, (high on MGH) just grabs the baseball bat away from Melvin. Melvin pleads with Bont to just leave him alone, but Bont says, "I've arranged for the murder of your four year old daughter. She've never met you, but she'll die because of you. You do what I say." And he tells Melvin to put on his costume and to go get Daredevil. 

DD2 #66, pg. 17: Cut to Alexander Bont standing inside a video store, (something like Blockbuster Video). An employee asks if he can help Bont find a movie, but Bont mutters how this use to be a restaurant, and just walks away, (the implication being that this use to be the restaurant that Bont owned in the "Silver Age"). 

DD2 #66, pg. 19: It's now sunset. Snow IS falling on the ground again, (as it was at the start of this issue). Bont visits his wife's grave. She died while he was in prison. Her gravestone reads, "Lucy Chambers Bont. Her voice was like an angel". 

DD2 #66, pgs. 20-22: Bont goes and pays a visit to a "Slick Saul", owner of a strip club, and a former gangster under Bont's control. Saul says, "I didn't know it was today". The implication being he didn't know Bont was getting out of prison today. Bont accuses Saul of being one of the gang who took over his territory after he went to jail. Bont takes a MGH pill, his eyes glow red, as Bont gets momentary super strength, which he uses to kill Saul. 

DD2 #67, pgs. 14, 15: Cut to a short time later. Special Agent Del Toro of the FBI, (our reaccuring FBI character) stops by the strip club, to investigate the murder of Saul. She examines the body, and figures out from the strippers that it must've been Bont who killed Saul. 

DD2 #68, pgs. 13-19: Narrative Caption reads, "Yesterday." Foggy and Matt are locking up their law office and are about to leave for the day, when Matt uses his heightened senses to figure out that Agent Del Toro is just across the street spying on them. Concluding that she's alone, (and thus, not there as part of an official FBI sting) Matt realizes she wants to talk to him alone. He sends Foggy on home, and goes back inside the office. Up to the office door walks Agent Del Toro. She knocks and Matt answers, and she starts asking him what it's like to be a superhero. Matt is bewildered by her actions, and at first thinks she's trying to incriminate him, but she asks for help. She pulls out the White Tiger amulets, and says these were handed down to her, and she doesn't know what she's supposed to do with them. 

References: Agent Del Toro says, "Hector Ayala, The White Tiger, was my mother's younger brother." So that's the connection between them. 

DD2 #69, pgs. 7-10: Narrative caption reads, "Yesterday." Agent Del Toro pleads with Matt to share why he's a superhero. Matt at first refuses, saying he could incriminate himself. She in turn says she plans on quiting the FBI. Matt finally says for her to meet him on the roof of St. Catherine's church at 11 o'clock. 

DD2 #69, pgs. 15-19: Narrative caption reads, "Last night." Agent Del Toro puts on the amulet of the White Tiger, and manages to get up onto the roof of St. Catherine's church. DD is on another rooftop, and gets her to jump across the rooftop. DD then says, "Try to hit me." He's testing her. 

DD2 #70, pgs. 2-12: Narrative caption reads, "Last night." DD tests Del Toro's skills, getting her to duel him. She lands a good punch on him finally. She asks again why Matt puts on a costume. Just then, DD overhears a robbery in progress happening just down the street. DD and Del Toro head to the scene of a convenience store being robbed. Del Toro's about to call for backup, but Matt says she can handle this alone, and disappears. Del Toro rushes in and defeats the criminals single handidly. DD appears again and says, "That's why. Costume's a symbol. Good Luck." And he disappears. 

References: Matt, (as he duels) gives a detailed history of the White Tiger, which basically says the amulets were given by a "Master Kee", to his three students. He says the amulets came from a jade tiger figurine from the ancient city of K'un Lun. He says the three brothers fought evil together, but, (having some sort of disagreement over a woman) all disposed of their amulets, throwing them in the garbage. Matt says that Hector Ayala then found the amulets in the garbage, and went on to become the White Tiger. How well this matches up with previously established history, I don't know... 

DD2 #70, pgs. 13-15: Later that night. It could be after midnight at this point, (considering that Matt was meeting Agent Del Toro at 11 o'clock). Matt, (back in his civilian clothes) heads home, only to find Melvin Potter sitting on his front door step. Melvin is wearing his Gladiator costume. Matt asks Melvin if everything's okay, but Melvin springs a trap on Matt, and manages to knock Matt out. Melvin calls up Bont and says he's captured DD. 

DD2 #67, pgs 1-3, (panels 1-6, of 7, on page 3): Matt Murdock is tied up in a chair in an old warehouse, (we later learn it to be "Fogwell's Gym on 2nd". so it's an abandoned gym). Standing over him is Melvin Potter, (the Gladiator) and Alexander Bont. Matt's shirt is open, showing his DD costume underneath. Bont is having Potter rough Murdock up, punching him repeatedly. 

DD2 #67, pgs. 20, panels 2-7) to pg. 21: Bont starts to order Melvin to finish Matt off, but Bont stops him at the last second, deciding he wants to see Murdock suffer some more...Bont has started to video tape on a camcorder Matt's abuse at Melvin's hands. He's video taped the DD costume exposed underneath Matt's messed up clothing. 

DD2 #68, pgs. 5, 6: Melvin pleads with Bont to just get this over with, and to let him slay Murdock now. Bont says he wants to torture Matt some more. 

DD2 #68, pgs. 20-22: Narrative Caption Reads, "Today", (the day after DD2 68, pgs. 13-19): Bont stops videotaping Murdock being beaten up. He orders Melvin to pick up Matt, (who's still tied up). They drag Murdock outside the gym, out onto the streets, preparing to show Hell's Kitchen it's "Kingpin." 

References: Bont says, "I'm 93 years old! Most people think I died twenty years ago, if they think of me at all." Which begs the question of how long he was in prison. He supposedly went to prison at the start of the Silver Age, (when DD was in his yellow costume period). In those scenes, Bont looked to be in his 50's or 60's in age. So in real life, Bont was in prison from the early 60's till now. How many years does that translate to in the Marvel universe?  

DD2 #70, pgs. 1, 2: Narrative caption reads, "Today". Bont and Melvin toss the beaten up Matt Murdock out onto the street. The people of Hell's Kitchen start standing around at the spectacle of it all. Matt's shirt has been torn open by Melvin, showing everyone the DD costume underneath. 

DD2 #70, pg. 16: Narrative caption reads, "Morning." Agent Del Toro is at the local police station, giving a statement to the police. She says she just happened to be walking by the convenience store when she saw it being robbed. Just then, into the police station runs a cop, saying he needs all the help he can get, because "some maniac chained up Matt Murdock and is parading him up and down the damn street." 

DD2 #70, pg. 17-23: Narrative caption reads, "Today". Bont tells Melvin to execute Matt now, in front of all these people. Just then, onto the scene bursts Del Toro, who starts kicking the Gladiator's butt. Bont pops another MGH pill, and throws Matt back inside the gym. He's beating up the still chained up Matt. All the while, Matt's warning Bont to calm down, but it's too late: Bont's heart explodes, and the old man dies at Matt's feet. 

Cut to later. DD's in the hospital, getting all his wounds checked out. The Fed's are questioning him. They want to know why Matt was wearing the DD costume. Foggy Nelson is there, and he explains that Bont captured Matt, and dressed Matt up in a Daredevil costume, and had Melvin beat Matt up. The Fed's question why they dressed Matt up in the costume, but Foggy says it's the media's fault, for continuing to smear Matt as DD. Matt asks what happened to Melvin, and the Fed's say SHIELD has Melvin in custody, and he's going back to jail. 

References: As Bont beats up Matt, Bont explains why he had Melvin bring Matt here, to this abandoned gym. He says, "This is where they killed your father! I owned this place! It was mine! I didn't know it's significance then, but I do now!!" So Bont owned the gym where the criminals killed Matt's father, (for throwing the boxing match). Which explains why Matt was really wanting to see Bont go to jail back in the Silver Age. 

Other references: The long jackets and snow outside point towards this all being winter. Hope you can make sense of this for purposes of the calender. I tried to be as clear as possible. 

That's it for now. Next up is the recent Black Widow miniseries. After that, the latest story arc from Punisher.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 28 Mar 2005 10:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin! 

Gee, whatever happened to nice, sequential storytelling?  

I'll try to sort through all this and incorporate it into the calendar this week. I'll let you know if I have questions.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 05:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have to hand it to you, Kevin. It's not easy slogging through Bendis' storytelling in this title. Here we have a frustrating combination of non-sequential storytelling, rehashed scenes, and a huge mess of temporal references that just can't be reconciled with one another.  

In any case, I'm trying to take all your notes for issues #55 (epilogue) and up, boil them down, and place them in chronological order within the general framework of the MU. Here's something I came up with. Please let me know if I have the basic order right. You're going to find that the temporal references don't necessarily jibe with calendar placement, but hey, this is Bendis. 

August 18 
DAREDEVIL v2 #56  FB (10-17) 
One day. Reed Richards appears here with an unscarred face; this flashback likely occurs after FF 511. The Democratic Party of New York asks Matt (with goatee) to run for mayor of the city on their ticket and tell him that an official request will come at a dinner tomorrow. Matt then meets Reed Richards, Luke Cage, Peter Parker, and Stephen Strange in a park, where we see short sleeves, green trees, and what appears to be warm weather. As the FBI surveys the situation, the four chastize Matt for going too far and an argument ensues; they feel Matt has become a dictator, something about which Reed should know. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (26p4-32) 
The same rainy day as DD2 56-FB (10-17). It must be much less than 12 months before DD2 65. It is a while after DD2 5. After Matt leaves the other heroes, he walks around town and finally goes to Dr. Stranges house for advice and assistance. Mention of Karen Pages death seems to surprise Strange, who should know better, as he attended Karens funeral. Matts facial hair doesnt quite match his goatee in DD2 56-FB (10-17). 
DAREDEVIL v2 #56  FB (18-22) 
The same rainy night as DD2 65-FB (26-32). During a thunderstorm, Matt is attacked by a gang of Yakuza thugs. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #57  FB 
The same rainy night as DD2 56-FB (18-22). Matt battles the Yakuza, sustaining heavy injury. When the FBI arrive on the scene, Matt is gone. 

August 19 
DAREDEVIL v2 #56 
The day after DD2 57-FB, so it must be the same day as PULSE 1 (1-2). It cannot be almost a year to the day after DD2 50. Ben Urich talks to Milla in a diner about Daredevils past year. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #57 
The same day as DD2 56. It is the day after DD2 57-FB and a year after DD2 50. Ben continues talking to Milla, who notes that Matt is her husband. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #58 
The same day as DD2 57. It is about four months after Matts and Millas wedding on May 4. It is a year and a half after DD2 35 (19-20), but this may be an approximation signifying a time period of more than a year. Ben tells Milla hell find out what happened to Matt. After checking with Foggy, Ben finds Matt (with goatee) recuperating at the Waterfront Medical Center. FBI agents Driver and Del Toro interrogate Yakuza member Sano Orii. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #59 (1-9) 
The same day as DD2 58. It is 9 days before DD2 59 (10-22). As Orii is released, the Yakuza assassinate Agent Driver. The news reaches Ben, who with Foggy has just witnessed Matt fall unconscious from a nervous breakdown. 

August 28 
DAREDEVIL v2 #59 (10-22) 
One day, 9 days after DD2 59 (1-9). After nine days drifting in and out of consciousness (and thus unavailable for other appearances), Matt awakens, clean shaven, in a safe house that Foggy arranged. Matt dons the costume for the first time in a long time and goes to apologize to Luke and Jessica, who apparently have just moved in together. Luke tells Matt that Jessica is pregnant, reinforcing the fact that she still doesnt show. That night, Daredevil, Cage, Spider-Man, and Iron Fist invade the Yakuzas base. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #60 (1-21) 
The same night as DD2 59 (10-22). It is indeed a couple of years after DD2 21 (18-22). This segment occurs a week before DD2 64 (1-12) and must occur before DD2 55 (17-22) and M/KS-M 11. The four heroes kick Yakuza butt and Matt tells his comrades that hes back in the superhero business. He then sees Milla who confronts him about his state of mind and its link to their relationship. We see falling leaves and a full moon. 

August 29 
DAREDEVIL v2 #60 (22) 
The rainy morning after DD2 60 (1-21). Ben Urich checks out his Pulse article about Daredevils return and the Yakuza smackdown. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #55 (17p2-22) 
One day, probably months after DD2 55 (15-17), long enough for Maya to become a noted figure in the New York arts world. Since Daredevil is in costume and does not have a goatee here, this segment must occur after DD2 60 (1-21). Maya (wearing a fur coat) and Daredevil meet on a rooftop. We see blowing leaves. 

August 30 
DAREDEVIL v2 #69 (14) 
One day, a few days before DD2 65. It is 14 days before DD2 68. Inside the prison courtyard, Bont gets some MGH in a drug deal. Bont says hes out of here in a few days. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #61 (1-2) 
One day. Milla seeks the annulment of her marriage to Matt. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (33) 
One day. Daredevil stands on top of a gargoyle atop a building in a pin-up that is seen at FBI headquarters in DD2 65. 

August 31 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (34) 
One day. Daredevil appears with the Hulk in a pin-up that is seen at FBI headquarters in DD2 65. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #61 (3-5) 
One day. Because Hawkeye is shown with his armored sleeve, this segment must occur after XS 25, A/TB 6 (17-20), and A3 76; in fact, I have this scene as the earliest chronological appearance of the armored sleeve. Falcons presence with the Avengers suggests that this segment occurs before CA&F 1-FB-FB (5p2). The Avengers (Cap, Falcon, Iron Man, Wanda, and Hawkeye) stop Vipers terrorist scheme in Bulgaria. The Bulgarian army assume custody of Viper from the team. 

September 1 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (35) 
One day. Daredevil fights a bunch of ninjas atop a building in a pin-up that is seen in FBI headquarters in DD2 65. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #61 (6-11) 
One day, not long after DD2 61 (3-5). It is two days before DD2 62. Bulgarian authorities agree to hand Viper over to the U.S. if the U.S. hands over the Black Widow. Fury is ordered to recall Natasha from a field assignment in London, but he tells her to disappear for a while. Waning crescent moon. 

September 2 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65 
One day. It must be much less than 12 months after DD2 65-FB (27-32). It is 10 months (probably inclusive) after DD2 65-FB (20-25) and is probably less than 13 months after DD2 65-FB (12-16). It must be more than 14 months after DD2 65-FB (1-6). Agent Del Toro is standing around the FBI headquarters going over the Murdock file. Her boss hands her a memo stating that Alexander Bont, the Kingpins predecessor, is being released from prison today. The boss notes that Matt Murdock was his lawyer. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #61 (12-21) 
It must be the day after DD2 61 (6-11). It is a year after DD2 36 (1-4) and 39 hours before DD2 64 (13-15). A scene from this segment is repeated in DD2 66-FB (18), in which Alexander Bont is present, thus showing that this segment occurs after DD2 65-FB (27-32). On what is presumably a slow news day, Matt chews Ben Urich out for a Pulse piece by Kat Farrell about Daredevil. Matt finds Natasha (who has been doing SHIELD assignments for over a year) in his apartment seeking a place to stay, then they both go off to bust up an arms shipment by Jigsaw. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #61  FB 
The same night as DD2 61. In this newspaper photo, Daredevil and Black Widow swing into action. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #62  FB 
The same night as DD2 61-FB. DD and Black Widow beat up Jigsaw down at the Pier before heading back home to Matts place, There, Natasha hits on Matt, but he declines to respond to her seduction. 

September 3 
DAREDEVIL v2 #61 (22) 
The morning after DD2 61-FB. The Daily Bugle reports on Daredevil and the Black Widow and also reports trouble at Avengers Mansion?, which may be a reference to M/KS-M 2; this same newspaper edition appears as an old newspaper in PULSE 7, so this segment must occur sometime before PULSE 7. When the arms shipment bust hits the press, a furious Pentagon director demands to talk to Nick Fury. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #62 
The same day as DD2 61 (22). It is two days after DD2 61 (6-11). Director Wallace of the CIA is ticked off at Fury, who has apparently allowed the Black Widow to remain free. At their law office, Foggy holds up the newspaper showing the Widow/DD story and asks Matt if he slept with Natasha, but Matt says no and that he still loves Milla. Foggy notes that Milla wants an annulment and Matt says he doesnt care. Jigsaw bursts into Matts office and asks what he did wrong to bring Daredevil down upon his weapons smuggling operation. Jigsaw offers to give Matt a cut of the money, but Matt rejects Jigsaw. Later, Matt has lunch with Natasha and explains hes legally married and still in love with Milla. Matt asks Natasha why shes really here. She starts to explain she thinks someones put a price on her head, but just then, someone opens fire on the caf where theyre having lunch. Its an election year, and the implication is that its campaign season before a presidential election. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #63 
The same day as DD2 62. Matt and Natasha duck the gunfire. Daredevil jumps to the rooftop and pummels the assassin, a CIA operative named Quinn. Quinn disables Daredevil with an ultra-sonic device and shoots Natasha through the shoulder. Quinn escapes, Natasha destroys the device, and she and DD help the people wounded in the assassination attempt. That evening, back at Matts house, Matt dresses Natashas wound and Natasha discusses her reason for being at Matts. Jigsaw and a group of thugs break into Matts house, determined to make Murdock pay. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #64 (1-12) 
The same night as DD2 63. Nick Fury looks at the online addition of the Daily Bugle, the headline of which reads: Murdock Mowdown: Gunfire rings out for lunchtime lawyer and his mystery gal pal. He concludes that the Widow is hiding in plain sight with Murdock. Natasha kicks Jigsaws butt and the police take him away. Later that night, Natasha and Matt prepare to leave Matts house, but Natasha gets a message on her wristwatch from Fury, telling the two of them to sit tight, and be bait to draw Quinn out. The web site notes that date is 7/26/04 and the temperature in New York today was85 degrees. The site also infers that its a presidential election season. 

September 4 
DAREDEVIL v2 #64 (13-15) 
The morning after DD2 64 (1-12), 39 hours after DD2 61 (6-11). As Matt and Natasha step out the front door, Quinn taking aim from a nearby rooftop, but Fury and SHIELD shoot him with a tranquilizer dart and take him into custody. The danger now over with, Natasha kisses Matt goodbye and they go their separate ways. 

September 5 
DAREDEVIL v2 #64 (16-22) 
The day after DD2 64 (13-15). Fury calls up CIA Director Wallace and tells him that he knows Wallace hired Quinn and that hes not to do anything unlawful like this again or hell send a file on Wallace to J. Jonah Jameson. Madame Hydra is set free from her Bulgarian prison and Natasha confronts the Bulgarian diplomat who asked for her in exchange for Madame Hydra. It turns out to be Natashas former husband, Alexi. SHIELD and an Avengers quinjet arrive on the scene to take Alexi into custody. Meanwhile, Matt hands Milla the signed annulment paper after making one last failed attempt to ask for her back. We see falling leaves in a rainy New York. 

September 11 
DAREDEVIL v2 #66 (1-4) 
One day. Alexander Bont steps out of a taxi onto the streets of Hells Kitchen, which he doesnt recognize anymore. Newspaper headlines read Mutant terrorism on the rise and Captain America speaks out agains war. Its snowing hard. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #69 (20-21) 
The same day as DD2 66 (1-4). It is two days before DD2 68. Bont visits Melvin Potter at his costume store and threatens to kill his four year old daughter unless he puts on his Gladiator costume and gets Daredevil. Snow is falling. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #66 (17) 
The same day as DD2 69 (20-21). Bont stands inside a video store and mutters how it use to be a restaurant. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #66 (19-22) 
The same day as DD2 66 (17). Bont visits his wifes grave then pays a visit to a strip club owner Slick Saul and accuses him of being one of the gang who took over his territory after he went to jail. Bont takes a MGH pill and gains momentary super-strength, which he uses to kill Saul. It is snowing. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #67  FB (14-15) 
The same day as DD2 66 (19-22). Special Agent Del Toro of the FBI stops by the strip club to investigate the murder of Saul. She examines the body and figures out from the strippers that it mustve been Bont who killed Saul. 

September 12 
DAREDEVIL v2 #68  FB (13-19) 
The day after DD2 67-FB (14-15). Del Toro visits Murdock at his office and asks for help. She pulls out the amulets of her uncle, the White Tiger, and says she doesnt know what shes supposed to do with them. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #69 (7-10) 
The same day as DD2 68-FB (13-19). Del Toro pleads with Matt to share why hes a super-hero. Matt at first refuses, saying he could incriminate himself. She in turn says she plans on quiting the FBI. Matt finally tells her to meet him on the roof of St. Catherines Church at 11 oclock. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #69 (15-19) 
The same night as DD2 69 (7-10). Del Toro puts on the amulet of the White Tiger and manages to get up onto the roof of St. Catherines Church. Daredevil gets her to jump across the rooftop and challenges her to hit him. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #70  FB (2-15) 
The same night as DD2 69 (15-19). Daredevil tests Del Toros skills by getting her to duel him. Interrupted by a robbery down the street, they head to the scene. Daredevil leaves Del Toro to stop the crime alone, and she does. Daredevil reappears and tells Del Toro thats why hes a super-hero. Matt gets out of costume and heads home, only to find Melvin Potter wearing his Gladiator costume and sitting on his doorstep. Melvin springs a trap on Matt and manages to knock him out. Melvin calls Bont and says hes captured Daredevil. 

September 13 
DAREDEVIL v2 #67 
The morning after DD2 70-FB (2-15). Matt Murdock, his costume visible beneath his shirt, is tied up in a chair at Fogwells Gym and is punched repeatedly by Gladiator in the presence of Alexander Bont, who decides to videotape the scene.DAREDEVIL v2 #68 
The same morning as DD2 67. It is the day after DD2 68-FB (13-19), two days after DD2 69 (20-21), years after DD2 69 (3-6), and apparently twenty years after DD2 68-FB (13). It is 14 days after DD2 69-FB (14) and must be more than 14 months after DD2 69 (1-2). Melvin pleads with Bont to let him slay Murdock now, but Bont says he wants to torture Matt some more. Bont stops videotaping Murdock being beaten up and he and Melvin drag Matt outside to show Hells Kitchen its Kingpin. Bont is 93 years old. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #70 
The same morning as DD2 68. Bont and Melvin toss the beaten up Matt Murdock out onto the street. The people of Hell's Kitchen start standing around the spectacle and see Matts costume under his shirt. As Del Toro gives a statement to the police about the robbery, a cop runs in exclaiming that some maniac chained up Matt Murdock and is parading him up and down the damn street. Bont tells Melvin to execute Matt, but Del Toro bursts onto the scene and kicks Gladiators butt. Bont pops another MGH pill and throws Matt back inside the gym. As Bont beats Matt up, his heart explodes and he dies at Matts feet. The Feds question Matt in the hospital. Foggy Nelson explains that Bont captured Matt, dressed him up in a Daredevil costume because of the media smear against Matt, and had Melvin beat Matt up. The Feds say SHIELD has Melvin in custody and that hes going back to jail. 

Daredevil appears in A 501-503 shortly after this.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2005 08:39 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
DD2 #66, pgs. 12-16: Daredevil, (in his yellow costume) busts into Bont's private restaurant, and beats up Bont's bodyguards. He then confronts Bont, (who's sitting down for a bite to eat next to his wife Lucy). Daredevil says that "The Fixer" (some thug who fixes fights) ratted out Bont, (what crime he was "ratted out" about is unclear). Bont denies being involved in any crime, but just then, into the restaurant burst the FBI. Daredevil slips away, and the FBI arrest Bont. Daredevil set something into motion that finally got Bont arrested. Bont and his wife look to be in their 50's or 60's by this "Silver Age" scene. 
<<<

This really isn't possible, considering that the Fixer died in his first meeting with Daredevil in DD 1. The only way that this claim can work is if Daredevil is flat out lying, if he got information from the Fixer's organization after the Fixer died, or if he had another, as of yet unseen encounter with the Fixer during the events of DD 1 (i.e. between pages of DD:Y 1 or between DD:Y 1 & 2). 

-Sean

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Posted: 03 Apr 2005 05:57 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The chronology of the present-day sequences is relatively simple to disentangle - it's all neatly signposted with "One day ago" captions and so forth. I don't really understand what Bendis thought he was achieving with some of the structuring in this storyline, but when you sit down and read it as a whole, it makes sense. 

The Silver Age sequences are problematic, at least so far as the brief sequence with the White Tiger is concerned. Hector Ayala didn't become the White Tiger until DEADLY HANDS OF KUNG FU #19, following the entire career of the Sons of the Tiger (who, in turn, had already encountered Iron Fist by that point). There's just no way that Daredevil can be meeting the original White Tiger before he switched to the red costume. Unless there's some story from the 1970s where Daredevil uses that brown and yellow costume again, it'll just have to be ignored as an art error. (Or, if you prefer, it could be assumed that he's switched back to the brown and yellow costume briefly - but that doesn't take us any further than "it's a mistake" for chronology purposes.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Apr 2005 11:44 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I have to hand it to you, Kevin. It's not easy slogging through Bendis' storytelling in this title. 
<<<

It can get tedious after a while. Nice job on compacting my detailed review into a more managable version fit for your calender. I was going to offer to go back through and shorten my plot descriptions, but you have it under control.  


Quote: 
>>>
Here's something I came up with. Please let me know if I have the basic order right. 
<<<

From what I can tell, your events appear to be in the proper order. You're right, the temporal references are all messed up, (summer/fall references in the Black Widow arc, winter references in the Bont arc), but it all looks as good as it can get considering it's Bendis. 

What I'd eventually like to see Paul, (if you don't mind) is all of DD's calender appearances in other titles all lined out as well, (such as in MK and Spec. Spiderman), so I can figure out where everything stands currently for Daredevil. Well actually, how about this: When do you think we'll get to see the next update to the entire calender here at the MCP? Have we got all of the X chronology sorted out? Where do we stand currently Paul?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 08:24 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
When do you think we'll get to see the next update to the entire calender here at the MCP? Have we got all of the X chronology sorted out? Where do we stand currently Paul? 
<<<

I'm getting close -- perhaps a couple of weeks. I think the X-chronology is under control, Spidey's chronology is being finalized now that we've finished the pre-New Avengers plotlines (note to self: write to Antonio), I have a basic FF chronology worked out, and the Avengers (after many months of torture) are now making some sense. 

To answer your DD question briefly... 

I have a BTS appearance by DD in M/KS-M 5 on September 6 (between issues summarized in this thread) 

After A 501-503, I have this order for DD: 
SECWAR 3-5 
M/KS-M 11 
FOUR 14 
W3 23-24 
A4 1-3 

Was DD in Spectacular? I must have missed him. If you're thinking of that so-called "Disassembled" tie-in with the Queen, I have that shortly after M/KS-M 11, but there's that whole Nick Fury/Secret War chronology that's currently out on the table. We'll see if SECWAR can happen before other appearances of Nick as SHIELD director, as in Spectacular #15-20.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Apr 2005 09:39 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, looks pretty good for now. I eagerly await the next full update to the calender. 

Quote: 
>>>
Was DD in Spectacular? I must have missed him. 
<<<

I think I'm misremembering...unless that was him up in the sky in that one panel that gave us so much trouble! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 25 Jan 2006 06:27 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm not seeing it here, but did we ever resolve the placement of Silver Age flashbacks in this story arc?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Jan 2006 11:28 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

The Yellow costume that Daredevil is wearing in the Silver Age sequences simply must be ignored as an art error, or as DD's red costume being at the laundrymat. There's simply no way to put these sequences before DD retires the yellow costume in DD 7.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 26 Jan 2006 06:24 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I know we figured out where these flashbacks can't go, but do we know where they should go?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Jan 2006 06:41 am    
By JLH

In case you didn't know or remember, Daredevil went back to his yellow costume briefly following DD 450. The final page of that issue he's back in it, then he appears in Green Goblin and Punisher wearing it, before returning to his red togs elsewhere. I'm sure it's way too late for any of the flashbacks to occur during that time, but at least it refocuses the target range for yellow costume appearances (or just goes to show he did indeed still have the costume handy to re-assume for whatever reasons).

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Thread 112

Posted: 25 Jan 2006 12:59 am    Post subject: Blaze v2 1-6
By Col_Fury

Blaze v2 #1 
a Cold Blast from Ice Box Bob! 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: August, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Holden Blevins, Kody, Clara Menninger, Schenker, Ice Box Bob, Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch)-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: the new mobile Quentin carnival, western Pennsylvania 
Holden Blevins approaches Johnny for help. 
Pg2-pg4pn1: FB 
A few days ago, Ghost Rider tells Holden where to find Johnny. 
Pg4pn2(of 4)-pg6: Quentin Carnival 
Holden tells Johnny about Ice Box Bob. On their way to town, Kody and Clara mention that Johnny was talking to himself. In a nearby town, the shopkeeper Schenker gives Clara a set of eyeballs in a jar mailed to her to this address ten years ago! He then shows them Ice Box Bobs corpse that he keeps in a freezer. 
Pg7-pg22: that night 
Johnny does his stunt show. 
Meanwhile, Claras eyes jump out of the jar and into her face. 
Meanwhile, a spectator is attacked by Ice Box Bob. 
Later that night, Johnny discovers that hes been healed and that he no longer needs the metal plates on his body. Holden tells him where to find Ice Box Bob, so Johnny goes to Schenkers and they fight. Johnny saves the girl attacked earlier, Schenker is revealed to have been possessed by Ice Box Bob, and Holden points out a message left by Ice Box Bob: I know where your kids are! 

References: 
Johnny goes back a status quo, so any appearances showing him with metal plates on his flesh must occur before this issue. Also, any appearances without them occur afterwards. 

All in one day, the FlashBack is a few days prior. 

Blaze v2 #2 
Swamp Fire! 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: September, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Kody, Clara Menninger, Man-Thing(Ted Sallis), Wolf, Ringmaster(Maynard Tiboldt), Princess Python(Zelda DuBois), Holden Blevins, Ice Box Bob. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg8: Florida 
The Quentin Carnival is on its way to its next show, when the caravan runs into the Man-Thing. Johnny shoots hellfire at him, which doesnt have much effect, and he walks off. The carnival continues on its way. When they arrive, Ringmaster and Princess Python mention that the carnival is hiring. 
Pg9-pg12: the next day 
While Johnny interviews Princess Python, two locals see Clara use her eyes, so they decide to steal them so they can find Man-Thing, capture him, and use him as a side show attraction. 
Meanwhile, Johnny sees Holden and stops his interview with Princess Python, finds Holden, who gives Johnny crap about not looking for his kids. Johnny rebuts that hes putting together a crew to do just that. 
Pg13: another dimension 
Ice Box Bob talks to himself. 
Pg14-pg22: Florida 
Wolf bursts in(doesnt see Holden) and tells Johnny that Claras upset, who tells them that her eyes have been stolen. Johnny takes off looking for the Man-Thing. 
The locals find Man-Thing, but 
Fear burns at the touch of the Man-Thing! 
Ice Box Bob jumps out of the Nexus of All Realities and attacks Johnny, but Man-Thing stops him, then walks off. Holden appears, gives Johnny Claras eyes back, and reminds him that Ice Box Bob still has his kids. 

References: 
Finally, Princess Python has a last name! 

Pg1-pg8: one day 
Pg9-pg22: the next day 

Blaze v2 #3 
Highway to Hellfire! 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: October, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Ice Box Bob, Holden Blevins, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Clara Menninger, Kody, Wolf, Baal, Mary Blevins-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: another dimension 
Ice Box Bob talks to Craig and Emma. 
Pg3-pg7: picking up from last issue 
Johnny and Holden return to the carnival and give Clara her eyes back, she goes crazy, so Wolf and Kody attack her. Holden stops them(everyone can see him now) and Clara calls him a weirdling. Holden then gives us a history lesson about himself. 
Pg8-pg9pn3: FB 
In another dimension, Holden is rescued by his mom from Ice Box Bob. 
Pg9pn4(of 6)-pg9: Florida 
Holden is holding something back 
Pg10: another dimension 
Ice Box Bob is attacked by Baal. 
Pg11-pg22: Florida 
Clara gets a vision, Johnny and Holden check it out. 
Meanwhile, Wolf makes a phone call. 
Johnny and Holden travel through dimensions and fight Ice Box Bob. 
Wolf, Clara, and Kody talk about what Wolf found out: Mary Holden did fight Ice Box Bob, but while she was pregnant, then she killed herself. Holden was never born! 
Meanwhile, Holden kills Ice Box Bob, Baal takes the kids, and Johnny comes back to our dimension. 

References: 
Holdens FlashBack is kind of true, he was with his mom when she fought ice Box Bob, if inside her. If he ever gets a listing, should the FlashBack count? 

All in one night, same night as Blaze v2 #2 pg22. 

GR@ 2/3 shows Johnny without metal plates on his flesh, on the road, and hes run out of leads on where his kids are. Since his only lead was Ice Box Bob, this story fits nicely after this issue. 

Blaze v2 #4 
Apache Autumn pt 1 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: November, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Wendigo, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Baal, Warpath(James Proudstar), Wyatt Wingfoot, Clara Menninger, Princess Python(Zelda Dubois), Darryl Licht, Jesse Pinto-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg9pn1: Somewhere in Arizona 
Johnny has a fever dream, where he sees Wendigo with his kids and interacts with Baal.(who he sees as Ice Box Bob) Hes woken up by Warpath and Wyatt, who are looking for a serial killer. They show him the latest crime scene, then warpath tells Johnny about his recent spirit encounter. 
Pg9pn2-pg9pn4: FB 
Warpath watches Wendigo walk past with Jesse Pinto, one of the missing children. 
Pg9pn5(of 5)-pg22: Arizona 
They meet up with Clara and ask for her help. Together, they all see a vision of Wendigo, then Baal disguised as Ice Box Bob, then Baal in another disguise. The vision ends, and theyre informed of another murder. They go to investigate the scene, but are attacked by the killer Darryl Licht, whos been transformed by Baal. They fight, and Baal appears. 

References: 
All in one day, some time after last issue. The FlashBacks most likely occurs a day or three prior to 'today.' 

An editors box tells us this story happens before X-Force #40. 

Blaze v2 #5 
Apache Autumn pt 2 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: December, 1994 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Warpath(James Proudstar), Wyatt Wingfoot, Darryl Licht, Baal, Clara Menninger, Kody, Wolf, Princess Python(Zelda DuBois), Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Jesse Pinto, Wendigo. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg5: Continued from last issue 
Johnny and Warpath fight Licht while Baal watches. 
Pg6: Meanwhile, Clara catches everyone up to speed. 
Pg7: another dimension 
Baal taunts Craig and Emma. 
Pg8: Meanwhile, same dimension 
Licht tortures Johnny and Warpath. 
Pg9: Arizona 
Clara has a vision, takes off with Princess Python. 
Pg10: another dimension 
Jesse Pinto talks with Craig and Emma. 
Pg11: Meanwhile 
Warpath breaks free! 
Pg12: Arizona 
Clara and Zelda ride! 
Pg13: another dimension 
Johnny and Warpath fight Licht! 
Pg14-pg15: Meanwhile 
Jesse reveals he was present during issue 3s fight with Ice Box Bob, then Wendigo appears! 
Pg16: Arizona 
Clara and Zelda ride some more! 
Pg17-pg22: another dimension 
Johnny and warpath fight Licht, Wendigo passes through, Clara and Zelda show up(somehow), and Johnny defeats Licht, reverting him back to human form. 

References: 
All in one day, same day as last issue. 

Blaze v2 #6 
Apache Autumn pt 3 
Hungry Spirits! 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: January, 1995 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Wendigo, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Jesse Pinto, Wolf, Kody, Clara Menninger, Princess Python(Zelda DuBois), Eve Two Crows, Baal, Tetrarchs of entropy. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg4: Washington state 
Johnny encounters Wendigo. 
Pg5-pg9: FB 
Continued from last issue, Johnny returns to the carnival to find Wolf, Kody, and Clara fighting. He breaks it up and meets Eve Two Crows, who tells him about the Wendigo. 
Pg10: Washington state 
Johnny notices that Craig, Emma and Jesse are riding on Wendigos back. 
Pg11-pg14: FB 
Wendigo picks up the kids and brings them back to Earth, Baal follows. On their way between dimensions, they pass the Tetrarchs of Entropy, and Baal starts a fight. 
Pg15-pg22: Washington state 
Johnny follows Wendigo, but is attacked by Baal. They fight, Baal is forced back to the other dimension, Wendigo and the kids follow. 

References: 
pg5-pg9: same night as last issue. 
Pg11-pg14: another dimension 
Pg1-pg4, pg10, pg15-pg22: the day after pg9. 

An editors box tells us that the Tetrarchs of Entropy were last seen in Avengers 330. 

Its revealed in this issue that Baal was the guy who took Johnnys kids in Ghost Rider v3 #50, so he should get a BTS for that issue. 

Which Baal is this? Its definitely not the Egyptian guy from Rise of Apocalypse, nor is it the ape-looking guy from Daredevil v2 #3. Baal from Wolverine v2 11-16 was at least green, but he doesnt look anything like this guy.(That, and they spell their names differently) Im inclined to say that this is an all-new, all-different Baal. However, since this guy first appeared in a comic published in October 1994, and the Baal currently listed as the first wasnt published until October of 1996, should the Rise of Apocalypse Baal be demoted to Baal II? Or because he took place in ancient Egypt he gets to be first? 

Also, which Wendigo is this? Most likely, it's the unnamed Wendigo IV, going by publication dates. But he doesn't even eat anybody. Could this be the Wendigo entity? Meaning, no one is hosting him at the moment, and therefore a different listing? I mean, he just wanders around. But he does say "Wen-Di-Go!" at least. Food for thought. 

In any case, here are some chronology placement suggestions: 

Menninger, Clara 
 
SOV 23 
*BLAZE2 1 
*BLAZE2 2 
*BLAZE2 3 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE2 6-FB pg5-pg9 

Wolf 
 
SOV 23 
*BLAZE2 2 
*BLAZE2 3 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE2 6-FB pg5-pg9 

Kody, Kodiak 
 
SOV 23 
*BLAZE2 1 
*BLAZE2 2 
*BLAZE2 3 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE2 6-FB pg5-pg9 

Blaze, Craig 
 
SOV 23 
GR3 50 
*BLAZE2 3 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE2 6-FB pg11-pg14 
*BLAZE2 6 

Blaze, Emma 
 
SOV 23 
GR3 50 
*BLAZE2 3 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE2 6-FB pg11-pg14 
*BLAZE2 6 

Baal 
*GR3 50-BTS 
*{BLAZE2 3} 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE 6-FB pg11-pg14 
*BLAZE2 6 

Man-Thing/Theodore Ted Sallis 
 
NOM2 21 
*BLAZE2 2 
MSU 8 
 

Ringmaster II/Maynard Tiboldt 
 
ASM 98 
*BLAZE2 2 
H2 469 
 

Princess Python/Zelda DuBois 
 
ASM 98 
*BLAZE2 2 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE2 6-FB pg5-pg9 
 

Ghost Rider III/Dan Ketch 
 
GR3 51 
*BLAZE2 1-FB 
GR@ 2 
 

Warpath/James Proudstar 
 
XFOR 39 
*BLAZE2 4-FB 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
XFOR 40 
 

Wingfoot, Wyatt 
 
S-H2 60 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
FF 394 
 

Wendigo IV/ 
 
M/CP 113/4 
*BLAZE2 4-FB 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE2 6-FB pg11-pg14 
*BLAZE2 6 

Ghost Rider II/Johnny Blaze 
 
GR3 50 
SOV 23 
*BLAZE2 1 
*BLAZE2 2 
*BLAZE2 3 
GR@ 2/3 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE2 6-FB pg5-pg9 
*BLAZE2 6 
GR: C 
 

Up next: Blaze v2 7-12!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Jan 2006 03:52 am    
By Enda80

"Which Baal is this? Its definitely not the Egyptian guy from Rise of Apocalypse, nor is it the ape-looking guy from Daredevil v2 #3. Baal from Wolverine v2 11-16 was at least green, but he doesnt look anything like this guy.(That, and they spell their names differently) Im inclined to say that this is an all-new, all-different Baal. However, since this guy first appeared in a comic published in October 1994, and the Baal currently listed as the first wasnt published until October of 1996, should the Rise of Apocalypse Baal be demoted to Baal II? Or because he took place in ancient Egypt he gets to be first? 

Also, which Wendigo is this? Most likely, it's the unnamed Wendigo IV, going by publication dates. But he doesn't even eat anybody. Could this be the Wendigo entity? Meaning, no one is hosting him at the moment, and therefore a different listing? I mean, he just wanders around. But he does say "Wen-Di-Go!" at least. Food for thought. " 

MK Handbook treats the Wolverine Baal as the same entity as the one appearing in Blaze. 

Aside from that, the Hulk Handbook dealt with this Wendigo under the Wendigo entry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Jan 2006 06:48 pm    
By Enda80

Official Handbook A to Z confirms this in Baal's entry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Jan 2006 09:15 pm    
By Col_Fury

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Official Handbook A to Z confirms this in Baal's entry. 
<<<

I just bought the new A-Z today, and came on to say just that. 

So, since Wolverine v2 came first, I'm going to assume that Larry Hama misspelled Ba'al, and we can therefore ignore renumbering characters. I went back and re-read the relevant Wolverine issues and came up with a suggestion: 

Ba'al 
*W2 13-FB 
*W2 11-BTS 
*{W2 12} 
*W2 13 
*W2 14 
*W2 15 
*W2 16 
*GR3 50-BTS 
*BLAZE2 3 
*BLAZE2 4 
*BLAZE2 5 
*BLAZE 6-FB pg11-pg14 
*BLAZE2 6 

W2 13 is a FlashBack covering Ba'al's history, and W2 11 shows his followers acting under his orders. 

Enda80 wrote: 
Quote: 
the Hulk Handbook dealt with this Wendigo under the Wendigo entry. 

I don't own the Hulk Handbook. What does it say about the Wendigo in this case?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 02:34 am    
By Somebody

Two things: 

1. Ba'al gets killed/destroyed/left with nowhere to go at the end of the Ghenna Stone arc. So, HUH?! 

2. PAD wrote that arc. Hama didn't start until the mid-30s.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 02:54 am    
By Col_Fury

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
1. Ba'al gets killed/destroyed/left with nowhere to go at the end of the Ghenna Stone arc. So, HUH?!  
<<<

The Handbook says that Ba'al just went back to another dimension, which is where he was when we next saw him in BLAZE2. 

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
2. PAD wrote that arc. Hama didn't start until the mid-30s. 
<<<

Um, Larry Hama wrote every issue of BLAZE2, which is where the 'mispelling' of Ba'al is.(Baal instead of Ba'al) Peter David didn't write a single issue of any volume of Blaze, but he did write the Gehenna Stone Affair, which is what I think you were getting at. 

By the way, I like your new Avatar. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 07:09 am    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
1. Ba'al gets killed/destroyed/left with nowhere to go at the end of the Ghenna Stone arc. So, HUH?!  
<<<

The Handbook says that Ba'al just went back to another dimension, which is where he was when we next saw him in BLAZE2.  
<<<

Since I posted last, I've seen the Handbook, and it doesn't say that - it says he died and went to "the Netherworld" (i.e., the afterlife) to appear in Blaze, which is quite a different thing from how I read what you were saying. So it's not as bad as I thought. 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
2. PAD wrote that arc. Hama didn't start until the mid-30s. 
<<<

Um, Larry Hama wrote every issue of BLAZE2, which is where the 'mispelling' of Ba'al is.(Baal instead of Ba'al) Peter David didn't write a single issue of any volume of Blaze, but he did write the Gehenna Stone Affair, which is what I think you were getting at.  
<<<

Yeah, I was referring exclusively to Wolverine issues. I've never read any Blaze issues. 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
By the way, I like your new Avatar.  
<<<

Hey, it's Deadpool in a tux. What's not to like 

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 07:02 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I'm going to assume that Larry Hama misspelled Ba'al 
<<<

"Baal" and "Ba'al" are different transliterations of the same term; neither one is a misspelling. For MCP purposes, the "Baal" version has been used more often and by more characters, so that version ought to be used in the characters' listings. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 113

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 05:01 pm    Post subject: Blaze v2 7-12
By Col_Fury

Blaze v2 #7 
We who are Lost 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: February, 1995 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Madame Yang Kwei Fei, Lobster Lad, Roach, Wolf, Kody, Double-Tap, Aura-Lee, Tex, Princess Python(Zelda DuBois), Clara Menninger, Lucius Tapp. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: San Francisco, 4:00 AM 
Johnny is awoken by Madame Kwei Fei, Lobster Lad, and Roach. Fei mentions Johnnys missing kids, so he hires them to be in his carnival. 
Later, Johnny holds more interviews, including one with Double-Tap, Aura-Lee, and Tex. Johnny tells them to get lost, then proceeds with his stunt show. During the show, Double-Tap shoots out the wire Johnny is riding on, injuring him. Meanwhile, Aura-Lee and Tex rob the place, killing Buster the ticket guy in the process. 
Pg9-pg19: 36 hours later, give or take 
Johnny wakes up in a hospital, and Fei finds out from a visiting cop where to find Lucius Tapp, Double-Taps brother, and therefore where to find Double-Tap. After a bunch of running around, the villains are caught. 
Pg20-pg22: the day following 
Fei has turned Double-Tap into a new Roach, Tex into a new Lobster Lad, and Aura-Lee into a monkey. 

References: 
Some time after last issue. 

Johnny was injured the first night, and wakes up in the morning. Not the following morning, because Kody says hed been asleep for a whole day. So, its a day and a half later, give or take. 

Fei let the old Lobster Boy and Roach go,(and turned them back to normal) making Double-Tap Roach II, and Tex Lobster Boy II. 

Blaze v2 #8 
 no Laughing Matter! 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Henry Martinez 
Published: March, 1995 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Kody, Wolf, Clara Menninger, Princess Python(Zelda DuBois), Arcade, Madame Yang Kwei Fei, Baal-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg5: Los Angeles 
After a demonstration, Johnny hires Arcade in disguise, not knowing its actually Arcade. 
Pg6-pg22: the next day 
Johnny walks through the carnival grounds and is distracted by Clara. Wolf, Kody, and Princess Python talk about interpersonal relationships. Johnnys distracted by noises coming from the new guys semi, which transforms into Muderworld. Johnny goes inside, destroys some robots, and is attacked by a follower of Baal. Johnny sends him back to another dimension, and sends Arcade in after him. Murder world transforms back into a semi, and Wolf drives it away as the cops arrive. 

References: 
Some time after last issue. 

Baal sent his follower to contact Arcade, but does not appear here, giving him a BTS. 

Arcade must have gotten out of that dimension pretty quickly, because he's still making appearances in various X-Books at this time, before and after this issue. 

Blaze v2 #9 
Gateway to the Soul! 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Keith Pollard 
Published: April, 1995 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Wolf, Kody, Clara Menninger, Princess Python(Zelda DuBois), Madame Yang Kwei Fei, Roach II(Double-Tap), Lobster Lad II(Tex), Aura-Lee, the Oculist, Crystal Gazer, Heinrich Himmler-FB. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg5: somewhere 
Johnny loads his shotgun while Kody, Wolf, Madame Yang Kwei Fei, and Princess Python try to calm Clara down. Outside, the Crystal Gazer walks around and controls the eyeballs in a jar to attack Johnny. 
Pg6-pg8pn1: FB 
Yesterday, Clara seduces Johnny, but theyre interrupted by Fei, who tells them that the Oculist is here. He was the one who mailed the eyeballs to Clara, but hes shocked to see that shes using them. So he gives us a history lesson 
Pg8pn2(of 4)-pg11: FB 
Just before World War II, the Oculist was a young boy working as a lab assistant. One day Heinrich Himmler stops by to see what progress the scientist has made, and that night theres an accident. The scientist had been turned into a shadow-like creature, but he left his eyes behind in a jar. The Oculist named him the Kristall Starrer or translated, the Crystal Gazer. 
Pg12-pg14: FB 
Continued from pg 8pn1, the Oculist wants the eyes back, so he can return them to the Crystal Gazer. Clara doesnt want to let them go, to Johnny sends the Oculist on his way. Later that night Johnny does his stunt show, and is informed afterwards by the police that the Oculist had been killed and his eyeballs removed. 
Pg15-pg22: Continued from pg5 
Johnny shoots at the Crystal Gazer, then hallucinates. Eventually, Johnny drives the Crystal Gazer off, and Clara puts the eyes back in her head. 

References: 
Pg8pn2-pg11: just before WWII 
Pg6-pg8pn1, pg12-pg14: one day 
Pg1-pg5, pg15-pg22: the next day 

Some time after last issue. 

The Oculist mailed the eyes to Clara, so he should get a BTS for BLAZE2 1, if he ever gets listed. 

Yes, this is the same Himmler that eventually became Zyklon. He also appeared in an issue of Sgt. Fury, but I cant remember which one off the top of my head. 58 maybe? 

Blaze v2 #10 
Interview with a Biker 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Gary Erskine 
Published: May, 1995 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Clara Menninger, Kody, Wolf, Princess Python(Zelda DuBois), Punisher(Frank Castle), Baal, Wendigo, Jesse Pinto, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Shelob. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg5: New Jersey 
Some vampires carting around a chained up box decide to start a fight with Johnny Blaze. 
Pg6-pg7: New Jersey turnpike 
The Quentin Carnival arrives in New Jersey, and Clara has a vision. 
Pg8-pg9: Elsewhere on the turnpike 
The vampires seen earlier attack a motorist. 
Pg10-pg16: Elsewhere on the turnpike 
The carnival finds the motorists corpse, which is pointing at an abandoned building. 
Pg17: Elizabeth, New Jersey 
Meanwhile, the Punisher tortures a guy to find out where the vampires are.(not that he thinks theyre really vampires, mind you) 
Pg18: another dimension 
Wendigo and the kids are about to kill Baal, when they find out that Johnnys in trouble. 
Pg19: a cemetery under the New Jersey turnpike 
Shelob looks at and talks about the box the vampires were carting around earlier. 
Pg20-pg22: the abandoned building 
Johnny starts a fight, while the carnival is attacked by vampires outside. 

References: 
All in one night, sometime after last issue. 

Shelob was last seen in Spirits of vengeance 11. 

Blaze v2 #11 
a Pale Fire Gleaming 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Gary Erskine 
Published: June, 1995 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Punisher(Frank Castle), Kody, Wolf, Clara Menninger, Wendigo, Baal, Jesse Pinto, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Shelob, Uri-El, Princess Python(Zelda DuBois), Madame Yang Kwei Fei, the Tetrarchs of Entropy. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg10: Continued from last issue 
While Johnny fights vampires, Punisher arrives and helps out. The vampires run off and Johnny meets back up with the carnival. 
Pg11: another dimension 
The kids and Wendigo scar Baal and leave him behind to go help out Johnny. 
Pg12: the abandoned building 
Punisher and the carnival go to look for the vampires. 
Pg13-pg17: a cemetery under the New Jersey turnpike 
Uri-El escapes from the box and kills some vampires, Shelob attacks and recaptures him. 
Pg18-pg19: the turnpike 
Punisher and the carnival ride! 
Pg20: another dimension 
Wendigo and the kids pass the Tetrarchs of entropy. 
Pg21-pg22: a cemetery under the New Jersey turnpike 
Punisher and the carnival find Shelob and the vampires! 

References: 
All in one night, same night as last issue. 

Blaze v2 #12 
a Blaze of Glory 
W: Larry Hama 
D: Gary Erskine 
Published: July, 1995 

Appearances: 
Johnny Blaze, Punisher(Frank Castle), Clara Menninger, Uri-El, Wendigo, Jesse Pinto, Craig Blaze, Emma Blaze, Madame Yang Kwei Fei, Kody, Wolf, Shelob, Lobster Lad II(Tex), Roach II(Double-Tap), Princess Python(Zelda DuBois). 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg19: Continued from last issue 
Everyone fights, Wendigo and the kids show up, Uri-El breaks free, all the vampires die, Shelob is captured, and Uri-El walks free. 
Pg20-pg22: sunrise 
Johnny has his kids back, Clara decides to give up the eyes, Punisher drives off, and all subplots are resolved! 

References: 
Midnight had to happen sometime, so lets say between pgs 20 & 21 of issue 11. 

Theres a great big full moon over New Jersey in issue 12. 

The Punisher is acting quite normal for him here, so this is before his Countdown crossover, where he starts to go crazy. 

Some chronology placement suggestions: 

Shelob 
*SOV 11 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 

Kody, Kodiak 
 
BLAZE2 5 
BLAZE2 6-FB pg5-pg9 
*BLAZE2 7 
*BLAZE2 8 
*BLAZE2 9 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 

Wolf 
 
BLAZE2 5 
BLAZE2 6-FB pg5-pg9 
*BLAZE2 7 
*BLAZE2 8 
*BLAZE2 9-FB pg12-pg14 
*BLAZE2 9 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 

Princess Python/Zelda DuBois 
 
BLAZE2 5 
BLAZE2 6-FB pg5-pg9 
*BLAZE2 7 
*BLAZE2 8 
*BLAZE2 9 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 

Menninger, Clara 
 
BLAZE2 5 
BLAZE2 6-FB pg5-pg9 
*BLAZE2 7 
*BLAZE2 8 
*BLAZE2 9-FB pg6-pg8pn1 
*BLAZE2 9-FB pg12-pg14 
*BLAZE2 9 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 

Wendigo IV 
 
BLAZE2 6 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 

Blaze, Craig 
 
BLAZE2 6 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 

Blaze, Emma 
... 
BLAZE2 6 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 

Baal 
 
BLAZE2 6 
*BLAZe2 8-BTS 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 

Zyklon/Heinrich Himmler 
*BLAZE2 9-FB pg8pn2-pg11 
AWC 98 
 

(note: I didnt put brackets around AWC 98 because Himmlers first published appearance was in an issue of Sgt. Fury. Whichever issue that was, it should get the brackets, and occur after BLAZE2 9-FB. This FB happens shortly before WWII, and of course, Sgt. Fury occurs during WWII) 

Arcade/ 
 
XFOR 30 
*BLAZE2 8 
X: PRIME-BTS 
 

Punisher II/Frank Castiglione/Frank Castle 
 
GR3 61 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 
PUN2 96 
 

Ghost Rider II/Johnny Blaze 
 
BLAZE2 6 
*BLAZE2 7 
*BLAZE2 8 
*BLAZE2 9-FB pg6-pg8pn1 
*BLAZE2 9-FB pg12-pg14 
*BLAZE2 9 
*BLAZE2 10 
*BLAZE2 11 
*BLAZE2 12 
GR: C 
 

And thats it!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 08:25 pm    
By Enda80

Actually, Zyklon made no known appearances in Sgt. Fury-I put in that note, based on faulty info from Comics.org. That said, they do say he made some Captain American appearances.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 08:45 pm    
By Col_Fury

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Zyklon made no known appearances in Sgt. Fury 
<<<

I remember Himmler appearing in a Marvel WWII adventure. I went and checked a few issues of Sgt. Fury I remembered that Hitler appeared in, 57 & 58, but there's no Himmler. 58 had Hitler talking to two of his chiefs of staff, one of which in charge of the military forces, the other in disguise, but the military guy was big and blonde. Not thin, not bespeckled, and no moustache, meaning that wasn't Himmler.(I took my world history classes after I read those Sgt. Furys, both of which was quite some time ago) 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
he made some Captain America appearances 
<<<

Maybe it was a Captain America WWII adventure I'm remembering, and not Sgt. Fury. Who knows at this point.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 27 Jan 2006 08:27 pm    
By Enda80

In Life of Pope John Paul II somebody with glasses resembling Himmler is shown next to Hitler. 

By the way, on a personal note, when I first heard of Himmler, I did not think he was real. That was because I first heard of him in that DC Comics Presents issue where Superman of Earth-1 teamed up with the Earth-1 Blackhawks. 

I had by that point (before 1990 or so) obviously found out who Hitler was, and since he had appeared in comcis from both Marvel and DC, knew he had to have been real. When I saw Himmler, I thought "Okay, they have an aid for *Hi*t*ler* named *Hi*mm*ler. A little too coicidental, you lazy writers. You should have substituted more than just the middle syllable.". But he did exist. (Of course, in another case, it never occured to me that Stal*in* might be fake because of Len*in*, but neither of these men were actually born with these names.)

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Thread 114

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 07:28 am    Post subject: Non-Marvel comics
By rhod

The recent thread about how much we spend inspired me to get round to asking a question which has been on my mind for a while now: 

What non-Marvel comics/graphic novels do the members of this board read? 

I'm curious because, while we are obviously all Marvel zombies to a greater or lesser degree of obsession, some of the contributors here seem to read SO much Marvel material, I wonder if they have time to read anything else? 

Personally, of the 2000+ comics in my collection, I think about 200 aren't Marvel (being mostly Tick, Transformers, and various Alan Moore stuff), while I have only 2 non-Marvels on standing order (again, Tick and Transformers)

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Posted: 10 Jan 2006 07:55 am    
By Starman

I buy no non-Marvel comics, except around holidays when I buy Donald Duck comics to get into the holiday spirit. (Around holidays there are always holiday themed comics in Donald Duck.) 

When I were younger I bought more different kinds of comics, but as time has gone by I've started to limit myself to just Marvel comics.
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

Last edited by Starman on 10 Jan 2006 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 10 Jan 2006 08:12 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I like to pick up Wonder Woman, Teen Titans, Supergirl, Birds of Prey... 

Noticing a theme here? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 10 Jan 2006 10:16 am    
By lkseitz

I've gone full-circle, more or less, in reading almost exclusively Marvel. I started out, 20-something years ago, reading Marvel's STAR WARS. Then I started reading ROM. That pulled me in to the Marvel Universe, although I've never followed any of the core books from the '60s for more than a story arc or two at a time. Then I started picking up the odd Epic comic, then the odd DC limited series. Actually, come to think of it, I think ATARI FORCE would be the first DC comic I bought after becoming a collector. (That is, regularly going to a comic shop to pick things up instead of buying odd issues at the local drug store or wherever.) Then CRISIS ON INFINTE EARTHS came along. I didn't read it at the time, but it rebooted the Superman titles, so I started picking up those. That pulled me into the DC universe. And somewhere in all that, the black and white explosion occurred and I was picking up oddball titles from all sorts of companies, but not following many regular series outside the big two. 

As time passed, Giffen & co. left JUSTICE LEAGUE and I dropped those books. And sometime after the return of Superman I just got tired of his books and dropped them. That, combined with a layoff, led me buying no DC comics regularly. 

That brings us to today. Money is still tight (as mentioned in that other thread), so my comic buying is limited. I find myself pulled mainly to Marvel books. Maybe it has something to do with first loves. Maybe it has to do with posting here. I don't know. The last DC book I bought was GREEN LANTERN: REBIRTH, although I'd probably be buying INFINITE CRISIS if I had the money. The only non-Marvel titles I'm picking up at the moment are ASTRO CITY (when it comes out), PS 238, and MAZE AGENCY. I have plans to buy the Gail Simone/Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez issues of JLA CLASSIFIED (a decision based entirely on the creators) and STAR WARS: THE RETURN OF TAG & BRINK, but currently see no other non-Marvel books on the horizon.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 10 Jan 2006 11:10 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Marvel Comics have always been first and foremost for me, (it's what I was raised on), but I've always branched out from time to time, to see what other companies are doing. I find that I'm always at least collecting one DC title, (just to see what the Distinguished Competition is up to). Over the years, I've picked up the occasional Batman one-shots, miniseries, or issues of the ongoing title. But ol' Bats has become a bit too dark and depressing in recent years. Besides Batman, I've been known to occasionally pick up the Green Lantern title over the years, to see how things are going in that title. I guess those two characters are my biggest attraction to DC. 

A couple years back, I bought a huge collection of Legion of Superheroes and Teen Titans comics off of a person that was selling their collection, and so now I have been eagerly collecting key back issues of those titles when I come across them, (and I'm reading Waid's new Legion of Superheroes currently). 

I also collect Conan from Dark Horse, and Red Sonja from Dynamite. I also enjoy Astro City, when it pops up from time to time. There's probably other sporadic titles that I pick up from time to time, but I can't think of them at the moment.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 10 Jan 2006 11:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

Savage Dragon, and related spin-offs. 

Everything else is pure Marvel.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 10 Jan 2006 05:09 pm    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
(and I'm reading Waid's new Legion of Superheroes currently). 
<<<

Eugh eugh EUGH! 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Savage Dragon, and related spin-offs. 
<<<

I remember geting an issue in the 10p bin a few months back, and I think it had a letter by you in it...

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Posted: 10 Jan 2006 10:56 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Eugh eugh EUGH! 
<<<
 


LOL...if it's any consolation, I'd rather he was still writing Fantastic Four, instead of working for DC. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 10 Jan 2006 11:23 pm    
By Ross

This isn't new, but - has everyone in here read Miracleman? One of my all-time faves. I think it should be part of every Marvelite's collection.

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 02:10 am    
By Col_Fury

Savage Dragon is by far my favorite non-Marvel book, hands down. It's too bad it hardly comes out anymore... 

Hellboy, Planetary, Ex Machina, Liberty Meadows, the Goon, Invincible, Conan, Astro City, Walking Dead, Heavy Metal, Green Lantern(Hal Jordan), JLA, Wonder Woman, Plastic Man(until it was cancelled), Teen Titans, the Flash, various Superman & Batman one-shots & minis, Superman/Batman, Identity Crisis at the moment, and a few others... 

With DC & the independants, I'll buy arcs and follow creators but I don't really follow books like I do with Marvel. With Marvel, I'll buy a book until it's cancelled, not that I buy every single Marvel book, mind you. Spider-Man taught me how to read & Nick Fury's my favorite for whatever reason. With that in mind, barring any major catastrophes, I simply can't stop reading those darn Marvels! 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Comics have always been first and foremost for me, (it's what I was raised on)  
<<<

Same here. 

Ross wrote: 
>>>
This isn't new, but - has everyone in here read Miracleman? 
<<<

Sadly, no. Whenever it's legal rights are settled, I'll pick up the trade. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Savage Dragon, and related spin-offs. 
<<<

I remember geting an issue in the 10p bin a few months back, and I think it had a letter by you in it... 
<<<

I've also had a few letters printed in Savage Dragon, along with some in Thor, Avengers, Gambit, Thunderbolts, and a few I can't remember. I used to be quite the letterhack...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 04:25 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Most of my comic buying is X-Men related, but I'm getting a few non-Marvel books - Conan, G.I. Joe, Transformers, Infinite Crisis, Seven Soldiers, the All-Star titles. Of those I'm probably enjoying Conan the most, though the Seven Soldiers stuff has been great as well. G.I. Joe and Transformers are hold-overs from my early comic collecting days, and have great nostalgia value, but Casey's Joe is a pretty good straightforward action-adventure comic. All-Star Superman rocks, while All-Star Batman sucks. Crisis is middling - I don't know enough about the DC characters and universe to really get into it.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 06:57 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Star Wars, Conan, Red Sonja, Transformers, G.I. Joe (hmm, all formerly published by Marvel), Astro City, Fables, Liberty Meadows (when it comes out), Rising Stars, Dragonlance: Chronicles, Forgotten Realms: The Dark Elf Trilogy, Lucifer, New Spring, Tarot, Artesia, Iron Ghost, Dork Tower, and PS 238, plus the odd one-shot/original graphic novel such as Jew Gangster; Bone Sharps, Cowboys, and Thunder Lizards; and the upcoming Brownsville.

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 12:25 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Off the top of my head, the non-Marvel books I regularly get are: 
Oz-Wonderland Chronicles, Hatter M, Dorothy, Lullaby: Widsom Seeker (Theme? What theme?), Polly and the Pirates, Gdland, Green Arrow, and Planetary. I also get Jack Kirby Collector and Alter Ego, but those are magazines about comics. 

I've been trying to pick up Pirate Club, The Aetheist, and Rocketo but my shop doesn't get them regularly so I don't either. 

I've also been trying to catch up on The Goon via TPBs, and I'm waiting for Girl Genius to show up again as a TPB. 

I think that covers it. 

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 05:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Savage Dragon, and related spin-offs. 
<<<

I remember geting an issue in the 10p bin a few months back, and I think it had a letter by you in it... 
<<<

Oh dear God ... #19. I hate that letter and I hate myself for ever writing it. I was 13 ... and I remember that Erik very politely answered all my questions, including my request for a team-up with Spawn. Shudder. 

I think I also wanted to know why the Dragon, although his girlfriend was a full-out hooker and they engaged in sex acts on-panel with great frequency, never worried about catching an STD. Good Lord.  

-Jeph! 
[ANSWER: He's got a healing factor.]

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 05:36 pm    
By Somebody

What did you do with SD 13 in the end, anyway>

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 05:46 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You mean the fact that there are two of them? I listed Jim Lee's as "13X" (short for "Image X-Month"), and filed it in-between #13-14. Of course, that became moot when I went all-TPB a few years ago, so Jim Lee's #13 is one of the few SD issues from that period that I still have in single-issue form. 

Going all-TPB allowed me to get rid of #19 as well. Phew! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 06:15 pm    
By garbonzo

Ok. Let's see if I can keep these straight. 

DC 
Infinite Crisis 
Green Arrow 
Green Lantern Recharge 
I just signed up for Superman, Aquaman, and Action Comics because of Kurt Busiek 
All Star Batman (which is terrible and I am dropping it) 
All Star Superman (which I haven't decided on one way or the other yet) 
Fables 
Y: The Last Man 
Losers (Which is ending soon after being so good for so long, then jumping the shark in a big-bad way!) 
Loveless (I'm iffy on this one too) 
Jonah Hex (Like it a lot more than I thought I would) 
Neverwhere 
Astro City/Arrowsmith (if and when they come out) 
Batman 
Birds of Prey 

And for the rest of the field: 
Queen and Country 
Little Star 
I try and pick up as much Oni as I can. It never fails to impress me. 
The Stardust Kid 
Seasons of the Reaper 
Conan 
Strangers in Paradise (Sadly ending soon) 
Paris 
XIII 
Surrogates (I cannot recommend this series enough!!!!) 
The Walking Dead 
Anything by Jeffry Brown 
Super F*ckers 
Crimson Gash 
Cannon God Exxaxion 
Powers (Can we call that non-Marvel?) 

There are more, but I can't remember right now. I am heading to the shop tonight. 

As for embarrassing letters... 
My one (and only) leter was published in Cage #20. I hadn't heard that the series was being cancelled, so I wrote in with all sorts of ideas for who Cage could face, and what team-ups I would love to see. It got printed, but there was no response. Oh well...Maybe I should write in to Powers... That Bendis guy will print and respond to anything!

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 07:07 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Going all-TPB allowed me to get rid of #19 as well. Phew! 
<<<

I could scan your page-and a bit letter if you want... 

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 07:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Don't make me lock this thread.  

-Jeph!

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Thread 115

Posted: 16 Jan 2006 08:39 am    Post subject: Board of Directors
By StAkAr Karnak

Was just looking over the list of Directors on the main page and thought it might be a nice footnote to mention retired directors also. Preserve the heritage of the MCP and such. 

- SK, tongue planted firmly in cheek 

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Thread 116

Posted: 25 Jan 2006 02:07 pm    Post subject: Shameless Self-Promotion!
By jephyork
Director

Everyone check out the credits box on the inside front cover of this week's "Marvel Spotlight: Jim Cheung/Warren Ellis"... 

      

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Jan 2006 10:11 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

And for those of us who won't be able to make it to a comic shop until next week...?

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Posted: 26 Jan 2006 11:08 am    
By jephyork
Director

I helped out on the Warren Ellis portion and got a "special thanks to" credit. Yee! 

Marvel Spotlight, it must be noted, is awesome and you must all buy it. Even the issues I didn't help on.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Jan 2006 07:49 pm    
By Jason Doty

Hey Jeph! what specifically did you help the "big guns" with?

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Posted: 26 Jan 2006 07:58 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Hey, congrats! I'll have to take a look at the issue next week.

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Posted: 27 Jan 2006 11:56 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Hey Jeph! what specifically did you help the "big guns" with? 
<<<

Fan reaction to Warren's tenure on Excalibur. Check it out, I'm quoted in the feature article too.  

-Jeph!
