	Marvel Universe Forum
1. House of M Revisited
2. Appearances of Multiple Personalities characters
3. Elektra Notes; that #18 fb has to go
4. Sentry #4: Hammerhead
5. Questions about early Iron Man/Giant-Man/Wasp chronologies
6. Next Update
7. Ed Brubaker on "Winter Soldier" chronology
8. Loki #1-4
9. The original Brothers Grimm
10. Early Spider-Man chronology questions
11. Nancy and Ronald Reagan
12. Marvel Knights Spider-Man #22
13. House of M #4 character ID?
14. Avengers 137-149 and Giant Size X-Men chronology
15. Daredevil in The Pulse
16. Is Fin Fang 4 canon?
17. No listing for Red Sonja?
18. War Machine ashcan - wtf?
19. A stab at post HOM X-chronology
20. Dr. Katherine Reynolds
21. Reprint Guide
22. Wendy & Richard Pini
23. Moses Magnum question his origin......
24. Sabretooth BTS in ASM #323?
25. Marvel Knights books
26. Harry Leland in Classic X-men #7

	Issue Analysis Forum
27. Morlocks 1-4
28. Chronology Review for DD2 #76-81
29. New call for analyses -- Future comics
30. Hulk: Destruction 1-4
31. Amazing Fantasy 15
32. Livewires #1-6
33. Mutopia X #5
34. Runaways vol 2 #9-12
35. Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame 1-5
36. Gambit v4 7-9
37. NYX 6
38. Machine Teen 4
39. Colossus: Bloodline 1-5
40. Wizard Mini-Comic #3: The Sensational Spider-Man
41. All-new call for analyses -- completed stories thru January
42. Gambit v4 #1-6
43. Chronology Review for Daredevil: Father #3-5

	Chat Forum
44. Captain America: Heroes Reborn question
45. Can I brag?





Thread 1

Posted: 31 Jan 2006 06:25 am    Post subject: House of M Revisited
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I almost hate to bring this up, but I've been trying to follow old (and locked) threads and off-topic tangents trying to figure out if we've settled on a reading order for canonical HOM scenes. I'd like to get this info into the calendar if possible (along with any new issue analyses).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Jan 2006 05:20 pm    
By Col_Fury

An order was presented/suggested over in House of Muffins, with a short discussion following about Magneto's chronology. There's been no activity on it for over a month, so I assumed that people were mostly happy with it.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 31 Jan 2006 08:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
An order was presented/suggested over in House of Muffins, with a short discussion following about Magneto's chronology. There's been no activity on it for over a month, so I assumed that people were mostly happy with it. 
<<<

I wasn't sure if you were still considering making changes as suggested in that thread. JD had the last word then. Are you and others sticking by your original order of events and assumptions of what really happened vs. what were false memories? 

To me the time issues aren't relevant. I plan to put these all in one day in September in the mainstream MU calendar. I just want to be sure what's included genuinely happened in the MU reality and that it happened in the correct sequence. 

So first I suppose I'd like a sign-off from you, Col, that after reading the comments in the thread, the chronology (most importantly the sequence, not necessarily the hard dates) you posted at the start of that thread is your current proposal. Then a quick show of hands -- are we good here? 

Thanks, Col_Fury!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Feb 2006 01:34 am 
By Col_Fury

I'm still happy with my original proposal, all things considered. 

-insert signature here- 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Thanks, Col_Fury! 
<<<

You sir, are welcome! 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 2

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 03:19 pm    Post subject: Appearances of Multiple Personalities characters
By wolframbane

There are often characters that have manifested Multiple Personality Disorder or similar afflictions. Often times these alternate personas are so different that they may constitute a completely separate character. Under what circumstances should MPD characters be given multiple chronologies? 

Here are a few possible guidelines listed below. 

1/ If the multiple personality is simply another personality manifested by a character's mind, even possibly numerous personalities, but are still essentially the same character, they would have a single chonology. Examples of this include Daredevil, Moon Knight, Aurora, Lizard and Hulk (normally). 

2/ If the multiple personality has somehow manifested itself outside of the character's original body, and perhaps even becomes a completely separate entity, these would be considered separate chronologies. Examples include the Hulk on occasions when Banner and Hulk have become physically separated for a notable period of time (such as when Doc Samson seperated them into two distinctly physical entities for a time, when Franklin Richards divided the two during Heroes Reborn, and the Earth X future where Banner has become a child and Hulk is a brutish creature) or when Onslaught separated from Professor X. If the characters somehow remerge (like the Hulk), the chronology would be reassumed by the original character. In cases where the multiple personality does physically separate, it would be warranted in the chronology to catalogue its appearance even while still part of the original body (like how Onslaught may have manifested itself in Xavier's subconcious mind in the form of Magneto as far back as UX 309). 

3/ If the multiple personality is as a result of a character absorbing another's character's memories, but not necessarily their conciousness or life force, then the chronology of the person who absorbed the memories should retain a single chronology. An example is when Rogue absorbed the memories of Ms. Marvel, and often Ms. Marvel's personality would manifest itself. Despite this, Rogue did not absorb Marvel's conciousness, only her memories, and Ms. Marvel herself would have her own chronology. ther examples include Rogue (AoA), who absorbed Polaris's memories, and Rogue (Ultimate), who absorbed Gambit's memories. 

4/ If the multiple personality is a result of a character absorbing another character's conciousness (not just their memories), distinct chronologies for both the character and absorbed life force should be maintained. An example includes Legion when he absorbed the conciousness of terrorist Jemail Karami, who remained a distinct entity within Legion. It should be noted that Legion did had have distinctly separate personalities (such as Cyndi and Jack Wayne) that were actual multiple personalities, rather than absorbed conciousnesses like Karami. Any appearance of the character should include the other conciousness as BTS, even if dormant. 

5/ Certain individuals may have been possessed by other characters' conciousness temporarily. An example would include the Malice entity when it possessed Polaris, or when Sasquatch's spirit inhabited Snowbird when her own spirit was vacant, or when Dr. Strangefate (Amalgam) lay dormant within Dr. Strange's subconcious. If one conciousness is submerged, the chronology should be listed for each character, which the submerged personality as BTS. 

6/ A unique situation arises when two distinctly separate individuals merge as a new dinstinct entity. If the new identity seems to be a continuation of one of the original identities, continue along with the 'main' character chronology and discontinue the negated character. If the two characters merge into a new, distinct character, a new chronology may be started. An example of this would be when Master Mold and Nimrod merged into Bastion.

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 03:37 am    
By metaldragon

You could include the merger of the Madelyn Pryor/Phoenix personalities into Marvel Girl (from Inferno [XF 38] 'till Judgement War [XF 50]) to that list.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 06:53 am    
By Somebody

So, how would you catalogue Madrox? 

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Thread 3

Posted: 10 Aug 2005 03:53 pm    Post subject: Elektra Notes; that #18 fb has to go
By Enda80

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS 
E:A 1-FB 
ELEK 18-FB-BTS 
ELEK 18-FB 
ELEK 18-FB 
ELEK2 35-FB 
ELEK 2-FB 
{DD 168 pg. 1 - 4-FB} 
ELEK -1 pg. 1 - pg. 3 pn. 3 
DD 168 pg. 5 - 8-FB 

That Elektra#18 fb has to go. The DD Handbook supports an earlier fb. Also, I really do not want to have to rationalize why Elektra's parents were adults in the 1940's but she is not very old herself today. (Remember menopause.) 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektra_%28comics%29 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektra_%28comics%29#Contradictory_accounts

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Posted: 10 Aug 2005 09:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Also, I really do not want to have to rationalize why Elektra's parents were adults in the 1940's but she is not very old herself today. (Remember menopause.)  
<<<

Well, it IS the 1980s in the MU and Elektra's in her 30s. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 11:45 am    
By rhod

How does coming back from the dead affect peoples ages? Are those resurrected necessarily the same age after as they were before they died?

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 04:31 pm    
By SeanCurtin

In Elektra's case, she looked much the same before and after. Even if she had been somehow de-aged by the rituals that brought her back, that wouldn't change the fact that she went to college with, and is approximately the same age as, Matt Murdock. 

-Sean

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 06:12 pm    
By ShadZ

Well, if the two flashbacks truely can't be reconciled, and the Handbooks support Elektra:Root of Evil #1-4, then I guess Elektra#18 has to go. Luckly, the story itself gives us an out -- the flashback was told to Wolverene by this Stavros person. Obviously, Stavros lied.
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 11 Aug 2005 06:28 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I tend to agree, but first.... 

Exactly how does the DD Handbook support an earlier flashback? 


watching: cold case files

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 08:31 am    
By Enda80

Elektra:Root of Evil #1-4 (March - June, 1995) it is stated her father was an aspiring diplomat who eventualy managed to gain his first assignment as an ambassador to an unspecified country. However Hugo and his wife had grown apart. Christina had begun a series of extramarital affairs with no apparent interest at keeping them secret, resulting in personal humiliation for her husband. Popular opinion in diplomatic circles stated that a man unable to control his wife had no business deciding on the fate of the world. When Christina became pregnant for a second time, Hugo was certain the child was not his own. 

Hugo confided to his adolescent son that his mother was a whore shaming their family. Orestez promised his father that Christina would never again shame them. Hugo failed to understand the meaning of these words. On August 13 of that year, the couple was on holiday in the Aegean Sea. They were located by a helicopter which opened fire on them both. The assasins left them for dead. The couple was taken to a nearby hospital. Christina gave premature birth to Elektra and then passed away. Hugo recovered from his wounds. 

Orestez had hired the assassins in order to indirectly commit matricide. He was horrified by the idea of unintentional patricide and ran away from home. Hugo was the only family left to Elektra. At first Hugo had no intention to raise this "bastard" child. However a paternity testing confirmed the child to be his own. Hugo was not sorry for losing Christina. He was grateful, however, for her giving him a daughter. He arranged for a beautiful headstone to be placed on her grave. Images of the Erinyes on the headstone implied however that Christina was responsible for her own death. 

Hugo grew to adore Elektra. He nicknamed her his "Little Amber" and showered her with gifts. Her favorite gift was a pet dog of her own, named Agamemnon, continuing the pattern of Hugo naming members of his family after the Atreidae. The dog was killed when a nine-year-old Elektra was assaulted by kidnappers. The men were all killed by Orestez who had grown into an accomplished martial artist after leaving home. He did not explain his presence there. He briefly acquainted himself to his little sister and then left again. 

But Orestez had a lasting effect in her life. He advised his father that Elektra needed to learn self-defense. Hugo hired a sensei to teach her the martial arts. Beginning her acquaintance with fighting. The issues were scripted by Dan Chichester and drawn by Scott McDaniel. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektra_%28comics%29 

The Official Handbook recounts the above version of the death of Elektra's mother. Therefore, I would let the other version go. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/natchioshugo.htm 


The other version is as follows (also from Wikipedia) 
Contradictory accounts 
A very different account was told in Elektra vol. 1 #18 (May, 1998). The account was told to Wolverine by an old family retainer by the name of "Stavros". Stavros had reportedly met Hugo and Christina during World War II , at the time of Greece's occupation by Nazi Germany. 

Stavros was leader to a small group of the Greek Resistance movement. A younger Hugo was a leader of a greater covert cell which operated in the same area. A fifteen-year-old Christina was also part of the cell and operated as a messenger. She brought a message to Stavros one day. An order to join her commandant and fight under his orders. Stavros replied to this arrogant message with laughter. Until Christina drew her gun and threaned his life with cold determination on her eyes. The following day Stavros joined a leader who was able to inspire such determination to his followers. 

Christina would prove her worth many times during the resistance. She married Hugo after the war. They were not involved in the Greek Civil War. However the later war cost Christina her life. Christina was in the eighth month of her pregnancy when Hugo had to go to Athens, Attica on "goverment matters". Stavros was left behind to take care of her. He accompanied her to the clinic to see the family doctor and was then dismissed for an hour. During that hour "a man who considered himself a patriot" but wanted by the Greek Army invaded the clinic. (Given the time the man was probably a member of the Democratic Army of Greece under Markos Vafiadis). He killed the doctor and attempted to take the patient as hostages. Christina attempted to convince him to stop the unnecessary violence but was shot in the chest. She used her old combat training to take the man down. She then had to stop the other patients from assaulting the already defeated man until his arrest. But she was mortally wounded and gave premature birth. Elektra was born in the clinic floor, painted red from the blood of her mother. Christina died before hearing the first cry of her daughter. The issue was scripted by Larry Hama and drawn by Mike Deodato, Jr. 

The two versions of the nature of Christina Natchios' death can not be reconciled. Since the second published story by Larry Hama also has topical references that I would prefer not to have to justify 

(Elektra's parents were active during World War II? did they get a bit of the Infinity Formula from Nick Fury? Did they possess a Bloodstone? Did they get a swig of the Elixir Vitae from Fu Manchu? Did they share some of the Pool of Blood with the Yellow Claw and Orphelus? Did they spend time with the Ancient One the way Baron Mordo did? Did they nick Compound X from Baron Zemo? How does Baron Strucker stay young? Did they change minds with Zola provided cloned bodies? Did they stumble upon Yi Yang's immortality secret? they stumbled upon Chandu's secret? studied Black Axe to find immorality?) the earlier published story presents fewer problems.

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Posted: 12 Aug 2005 11:46 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

While it sounds like the flashback in ELEK 18 should be dropped from the listings, I believe we should address the "canon" issue by treating the flashback as an "apocryphal story." 


watching: live from

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Posted: 23 Oct 2005 09:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

When did Stavros tell this story to Wolverine? 

I tracked down Elektra #18, expecting to see Wolverine there, and was treated to Athos telling the tale to the cook instead. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Oct 2005 10:34 am    
By Somebody

I suspect a mixup with Wolverine c. #104 (give or take a couple of issues, I can't remember exactly). Stavros tells feralWolverine a story about Wolverine during the war without recognising him (which, given how Wolverine looked at the time, is understandable)

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Posted: 23 Oct 2005 12:25 pm    
By JD

#106, just after Onslaught, actually.

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 10:19 pm    
By Xalibar

I have three questions: 

When did elektra become leader of the hand? 

In Elektra: The Hand, did elektra get killed or something? 

Is there a list with all Elektra comics and appearances?

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 05:31 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Xalibar wrote: 
>>>
When did elektra become leader of the hand? 
<<<

During "Enemy of the State." It doesn't really make any sense, to be honest, but then that's the kind of story it was. Basically, they try to brainwash her into serving them again, but she ends up usurping the leadership and taking over the organisation. It's a lot more garbled in the original story, though.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 07:16 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Xalibar wrote: 
>>>
In Elektra: The Hand, did elektra get killed or something? 
<<<

No; her appearance there takes place after she was killed by Bullseye and before or during her resurrection. The portions of that series that don't feature Elektra take place several centuries earlier, and establish the origin of the Hand itself. 

Here's my analysis of the series: http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1500 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 01:03 am    
By Xalibar

I don't think it was after bullseye killed her, wasn't she killed during the time when hydra and hand teamed up (i guess in enemy of the state) she was killed there wasn't she? 

EDIT: yeah she was killed in the battle and elektra: the hand takes palce when they are resurecting her. After she was killed by bullseye it was the chaste the brought her back to life.

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Posted: 13 Jan 2006 11:52 am    
By jephyork
Director

Since "Elektra: the Hand" was published a few years before Elektra's death in "Enemy of the State", I really doubt that was the writer's intent. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Jan 2006 11:34 am    
By Xalibar

We don't know what the writers intent was. Just because it was published sometime before doesn't mean that it has to take place before. With comics sometimes a characters story arc is published before the events that lead to the arc take place. 

EDIT: By the way, what issues are the enemy of the state story arc?

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Posted: 14 Jan 2006 05:50 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The opening of Elektra: The Hand #1 clearly states that the framing sequence (the only part of the story in which Elektra appears) takes place "years ago". 

"Enemy of the State" ran from Wolverine vol. 3 #20-31. 

-Sean

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 10:25 am    
By jephyrok
Director

Xalibar, while it's true that events can definitely be published out-of-order in the MU, what I'm saying is -- in this case, it's obvious that the writer of "Elektra: the Hand" didn't intend this resurrection to be the resurrection from "Enemy of the State" -- because at the time it was published, "Enemy of the State" hadn't even been conceived yet! 

The "years ago" tag in #1 cinches it, I think. 

Now -- when CAN the framing sequence occur? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Jan 2006 07:24 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Now -- when CAN the framing sequence occur? 
<<<

During Daredevil #190, between Stone completing the resurrection ritual and Elektra leaving to join the Chaste. 

-Sean

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Posted: 29 Jan 2006 11:11 pm    
By Xalibar

how would you know if the story was conceived of yet? Enemy of the state ran for 11 issues, It could've easily been though up during the run of elektra the hand. As for the years ago thing, well like you said, we don't know the writers intention and it could've been a mistake or not. The telling of the hand story could've take place years afer the enemy of the state story arc while the current story arcs still remain in regular continuity. The years ago thing doesn't really clinch it. 

As for DD 190, the hand attempted to resurect elektra but did not succeed due to daredevil. It was DD who purified her spirit trying to bring her back to life emulating what stick did, and stone finding that her spirit purified, brought her body to the mountain of the chaste and they resurected her. 

In The Hand it is clearly the hand resurecting her. At the end they mention her taking her place in the hands future. And in the enemy of the state story arc she is killed and works with the hand, then in the DD story arc, she is leader of the hand.

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Posted: 29 Jan 2006 11:57 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Xalibar wrote: 
>>>
In The Hand it is clearly the hand resurecting her. At the end they mention her taking her place in the hands future. And in the enemy of the state story arc she is killed and works with the hand, then in the DD story arc, she is leader of the hand. 
<<<

It could be a previously unrevealed resurrection, taking place during Elektra's initial time with the Hand. That's how I read it, anyway.

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Posted: 30 Jan 2006 01:55 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
how would you know if the story was conceived of yet? Enemy of the state ran for 11 issues, It could've easily been though up during the run of elektra the hand. 
<<<

"Elektra: the Hand" #1 came out 9/1/2004. Wolverine v3 #20 came out 10/6/04. I suppose it is CONCIEVABLE that Mark Millar had a big head-start on his arc, knew he'd be killing Elektra several issues into his run, and communicated this to Akira Yoshida, who then wrote an Elektra resurrection framing sequence into his own story ... but you've got to admit that it's pretty unlikely. I'd bet on "coincidence", myself. 

That said, Elektra's death and resurrection in the pages of W3 *does* present a tempting place to slot this "previously-unseen resurrection"... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Jan 2006 03:44 pm    
By Somebody

$%^ it - who cares if it was "intended" in this instance. It works better that way, so slot it in there.

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 10:52 am
By Xalibar

One month difference? Comic writers have story arcs a long time before the issues are made, months even. These are way too close to be any kind of coincidence. I don't know exactly how comics are made but i do know that story arcs are thought up before they are actually made into issues. Besides the guys that write the official handbook to the marvel universe says all evidence points to that. 

"$%^ it - who cares if it was "intended" in this instance. It works better that way, so slot it in there. " 

Sounds good to me.

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 12:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Xalibar, why are you continuing to pick this nit? Neither one of us can read Mark Millar's or Akira Yoshida's mind -- and the majority of folks in this thread now advocate placing the "Hand" mini where you suggest. What do you gain by continuing to hammer on that your opinion is right? 

Yes, comic writers think out their plots in advance. Which means Millar thought his out in advance -- and so did Yoshida. And Yoshida's book was published first -- so, ASSUMING that he and Millar work the same number of months in advance, he'd still have thought his series up one month before Millar started thinking about his. 

Also, there's the "some years ago" caption that opens up Yoshida's series. If he was deliberately making a reference to an UPCOMING issue of Wolverine, why would he add a caption stating that his story began in the PAST? 

I, personally, find it much more likely that this IS a coincidence -- and that Yoshida simply botched his intended reference to Elektra's original resurrection years ago. 

That said, if the W3 arc is the only on-panel time the Hand has resurrected Elektra, that's where this mini should go -- I don't think anyone here is disagreeing on that point. 

Quote: 
>>>
the guys that write the official handbook to the marvel universe says all evidence points to that. 
<<<

Can you provide a quote? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 01:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
the guys that write the official handbook to the marvel universe says all evidence points to that. 
<<<

Can you provide a quote? 
<<<

More precisely, will the quote come from the handbook itself, rather than simply "the guys that write the handbook"? The guys who write the handbook--outside of any of their writings that actually make it into the handbook--are simply fans, just like us. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 04:45 pm    
By Xalibar

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Xalibar, why are you continuing to pick this nit? Neither one of us can read Mark Millar's or Akira Yoshida's mind -- and the majority of folks in this thread now advocate placing the "Hand" mini where you suggest. What do you gain by continuing to hammer on that your opinion is right? 
<<<

I didn't realize i was doing that, sorry. 

I just emailed the FAQ that they had in the marvel handbook thing, and they just replied in an email saying thats what the evidence points to. 


Lets just forget that. What was the HC book "Elektra Lives Again" about? How come it isn't considered canon? I haven't read it so i'm just curious.

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 06:19 pm    
By Enda80

from the author of this post 

5. Elektra Lives Again: Per the Master Edition entries for Bullseye and Elektra, happens in an alternate past, present, or future. In this story, Bullseye gets killed by the Hand, only to get resurrected by them and then killed by Elektra, who then dies again. Frank Miller himself once stated that it took place after Daredevil I#191 but before the Born Again storyline (the events of Elektra Lives Again contributing to Murdock's precarious mental condition in those issues). However, the return of Bullseye in the Streets of Poison storyline in Captain America, of Elektra in the Fall From Grace storyline, and a comment in the Daredevil letters page [around #321] removes Elektra Lives Again from Earth-616 continuity. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/meltdown.htm

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Thread 4

Posted: 05 Jan 2006 11:54 am    Post subject: Sentry #4: Hammerhead
By Kevin W.
Director

So Hammerhead shows up in Sentry #4, to threaten Robert Reynolds' psychiatrist. Is this THE Hammerhead? Or a different one? Because he looks nothing like the old Hammerhead. Maybe it's just the goatee that's throwing me off. 

The Hammerhead shown here mentions that he's got criminal enterprises in NYC that he doesn't want the Void interfering with, which might somewhat match up with how he was written in DD vs. Punisher, (wherein Hammerhead was wanting to be the top crimelord)... 

If this is the same Hammerhead, then it'd be preferable to have this appearance occur before the ending of DD vs. Punisher, (which has Hammerhead and the Jackal in jail) but I don't know if that's going to work out.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 12:24 pm    
By Somebody

I'm more curious about Hammerhead remembering the time he made Sentry cry... if Jenkins got any memos at all about Bendis' NA arc, he's ignoring them (Hulk, of course, also remembers his time with both Sentry and the Void in issue 3). 

Personally, I'd be inclined to wonder about the canoncity of the NA flashbacks at this rate. Didn't they pretty severely contradict the first Sentry mini?

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 12:41 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think that was the point of them, though. To make us question exactly how much of the Sentry mini actually happened. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 12:56 pm  
By Somebody

Maybe - but Jenkins certainly seems to be singing from his original hymnsheet here (did I mention we get a restatement this issue that the Void was Sentry's nemesis from Day One here?)

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 09:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So Hammerhead shows up in Sentry #4, to threaten Robert Reynolds' psychiatrist. Is this THE Hammerhead? Or a different one? Because he looks nothing like the old Hammerhead. Maybe it's just the goatee that's throwing me off.  
<<<

Hmm. The goatee isn't the issue; it's the entire shape of this guy's head and features. Ruling out major reconstructive surgery, I was under the impression that this is a different Hammerhead from the "classic" Hammerhead who I last saw in M/KSM 11. (I don't have DDVP.)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Jan 2006 11:48 pm    
By Somebody

Gang boss, talks the way Hammerhead usually does, and his head isn't too far off how I last saw Romita Jr draw it. I'd say it's the same'ol'Hammerhead. 

(Aren't I usually the one arguing the other way around?)

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Posted: 06 Jan 2006 08:21 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, we'll have to wait and see where Jenkins is going with this. While the general public don't remember the Sentry, a handful of characters clearly do. Since the nature of Hammerhead's past relationship with Sentry hasn't yet been explained, it's not necessarily a conflict that he's in some special situation that allows him to remember. (Or that allowed him to remember once the spell was lifted.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 10:26 am    
By Somebody

Well, Hammerhead apparently dies at the... ummm... spheres of CLOC in #5. 

And there's no doubt about the Void being real and original after the ending of the issue... and I'd REALLY wonder about the NA stuff now in general. [At any rate, Emma Frost is an idiot.]

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 09:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

While we're on the topic of SENTRY2 4, here we have yet another group shot of super-villains. I recognize Hammerhead (well not so much recognize as am told  ), Grizzly, Doc Ock, Vulture, and Shoc (I think). Anyone recognize other characters in this panel? The person with the feathery cloak on the right? The blond sitting on the floor? The guy at the bar with the diamond design on the chest? Etc.?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 06:15 am    
By Starman

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
[...] Shoc (I think). [...] 
<<<

You mean the Shocker? S.H.O.C. is some other guy.
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 06:50 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I thought it was S.H.O.C., but went back and double-checked his costume; no go. I know I've seen the costume before, but I don't recall it being some new outfit for the Shocker. His recent appearances (at least those I remember) are all in the traditional padded costume.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 08:15 am    
By Starman

Okay, second question. S.H.O.C. is a super-villain now? When was that revealed?
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 09:03 am    
By jephyork
Director

I have a vague memory of him showing up as a resurrected Hand-villain in W3 #26-27. Since both stories (W3 and Sentry v2) were drawn by Romita Jr., maybe we should compare the villain shots to see who matches up? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 08:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

No, the guy in SENTRY2 4 is not the S.H.O.C. we see in W3 26-27. But I know I've seen him before. Argh.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 08:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

As far as Hammerhead goes...if we're talking about the same guy, then I suppose his recent chronology goes: 

DDVP 4 -- He's locked up at Salamanca Federal Prison 
DD2 81 -- He's been transferred to Ryker's 
SENTRY2 4-5 -- He's out of prison and out of time :X
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Feb 2006 03:34 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Well, Hammerhead apparently dies at the... ummm... spheres of CLOC in #5. 
<<<

Well, let's be fair: There's no body shown...no dead body = no death.  

Doesn't the Sentry, (and by extension C.L.O.C., who serves the Sentry) have a code against killing? But then again, the Sentry splattered Attuma's head like a melon in issue #1...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Feb 2006 07:08 pm    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Well, let's be fair: There's no body shown...no dead body = no death.   
<<<

Yeah, yeah I know. That's why I said "apparently"  

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Doesn't the Sentry, (and by extension C.L.O.C., who serves the Sentry) have a code against killing? But then again, the Sentry splattered Attuma's head like a melon in issue #1... 
<<<

It's all about probabilities. If CLOC judges that more lives will be saved by killing one person, he'll make that call. By forcing the shrink to bring the Void back into the open, Hammerhead & co endangered six billion lives. Hence the green-laser firing squad.

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Thread 5

Posted: 03 Feb 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject: Questions about early Iron Man/Giant-Man/Wasp chronologies
By Chris McCarver

I'm working on a comprehensive Marvel Universe Timeline, and I ran across something I needed a bit of clarification on in regards to the chronologies for Tony Stark, Hank Pym, and Janet van Dyne circa Avengers #2-3. 

IRON MAN 
[...] 
A 2 
TOS 48 
IM:IA 2 
FURY 1-FB (39:3 - 41:2) 
FURY 1-FB (43 - 53) 
TOS 49 
UTSM 3 
A 3 
[...] 

GIANT-MAN 
[...] 
A 2 
A 267 
A 2 
UTSM 3 
TTA 50 
TTA 51 
TOS 49 
A 3 
[...] 

WASP 
[...] 
A 2 
UTSM 3 
TTA 50 
TTA 51 
TOS 49 
A 3 
[...] 

According to Hank and Jan's listings, their appearances in UTSM 3 precede their appearance in TOS 49. However, Tony's lists his appearance in TOS 49 as taking place after UTSM 3. 

Admittedly having not read UTSM 3, does this mean that Hank and Jan appeared in UTSM 3, then the events of TTA 50-51 and TOS 49 took place, after which Tony appeared later in UTSM 3?
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 04:49 pm    
By Jossik

Chris McCarver wrote: 
>>>
I'm working on a comprehensive Marvel Universe Timeline 
<<<

Hello, I'm (very randomly and my little little spare time) working too on a comprehensive Marvel Universe (Early) Timeline, I've not inserted TTA 50 and TTA 51 yet, so I've not an answer to your question. What I can say is that in UTSM 3 Giant-Man, Wasp and Iron Man are in the same panel, exactly in page 13. I think this is one of the many problems when you try to put togheter all the chronologies of different figures in one comprehensive timeline. 

One question: are you using some kind of software for working on your timeline ? Thanks ! 

And, pardon my poor English, I'm Italian with only scholar knowledge of English. 

Joe

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 08:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jossik is correct. They all appear on the same panel of UTSM 3. FWIW, I have UTSM 3 occurring before TOS 49.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Feb 2006 10:08 pm    
By Chris McCarver

All right, guys, that makes sense. Thanks for the responses.  

And Jossik, to answer your question, mainly all I'm using is MS-Excel spreadsheets. They've made record-keeping a fair sight more handy though. 
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Thread 6

Posted: 31 Aug 2005 08:35 pm    Post subject: Next Update
By ADMINISTRATOR

There's an update coming this weekend, which for the most part will concentrate on updating the existing chronologies, based on your input here in the forums (although we'll also be adding about a hundred books). 

Traditionally, the fall is a busy period at the Project, and this year looks to be no exception. Beginning with Labor Day, and running through the end of the year, updates should be coming on a (more or less) weekly basis. 

I'm seeking your input on where we go from here...at least for next week. Where would you like to see me concentrate my efforts: closing the gap; analyzing more recent books; or continuing to update the chronologies based on messages here at the Forum? 

Generally speaking, closing the gap means adding a lot of books in a small space of time (last autumn, we were closing the gap, and adding close to 50 books a week!). Adding info from the Forum probably brings in the fewest number of new books, but it provides much needed reward and recognition to the hard work done by our contributors, and of course, makes the existing listings stronger. 

Of course, all of these things need to be addressed--and will be--in the coming months, but for the upcoming week, I'll do whatever you guys want. 


watching: law and order

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 08:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'd prefer that more recent comics could wait until I have a chance to update the calendar, in the hopes that it might be of some use and could streamline the process a bit...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 08:57 pm    
By shandrakor

Well, it seems to me that forum based changes could be completed most quickly. Adding in my personal distaste for how slowly forum posts get incorporated into the project, my vote is for that.

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Posted: 31 Aug 2005 10:21 pm    
By Col_Fury

I would say updating the current chronologies from forum posts should take priority, then the gap, then new books. Updates & the Gap seem to be tied together anyway, as far as I've noticed. Waiting on the newer books will make for fewer adjustments later, but I'm sure that will always happen.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 01 Sep 2005 12:14 am    
By Jason Doty

In my view, closing the gap, then doing forum corrections, and finally adding new books would be the best option. A completion of the gap would help place future books with flashbacks and also give us more of a chance to "flesh out" current debates.

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Posted: 01 Sep 2005 12:23 am    
By JLH

Though I have a lot of forum posts that need to be added, the forum posts were all done without the Gap being closed. They're often in need of the Gap issues being already filled in to find the place for them to occur. From that standpoint, the order should probably be Gap to boardslide... err, boardside, then newer. The newest books are often lacking in continuity remarks anyway, they can wait.

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Posted: 01 Sep 2005 08:58 am    
By Dhall

I would love to see the gap closed. After that we could concentrate on forum posts and recent books.

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Posted: 01 Sep 2005 01:11 pm    
By BobMM

I go with the gap. From the perspective of someone who frequently references the MCP's listings on back-issue hunts, that hole is the most frustrating thing.

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Posted: 02 Sep 2005 01:36 pm    
By faz500

I also vote for the gap. I'm regularly scouring bargain bins and picking up books from the gap and would really like to slot them in without going through the hassle of reading them  

Faz

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Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Traditionally, the fall is a busy period at the Project, and this year looks to be no exception. Beginning with Labor Day, and running through the end of the year, updates should be coming on a (more or less) weekly basis. 
<<<

Aww, you jinxed it!

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 11:11 am    
By metaldragon

I think corrections should be first, gap next, and new issues last as well.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 11:57 am    
By jephyork
Director

The question was asked five months ago, and related to what the Admin should focus on LAST fall, but we'll take your opinion under advisement.  

-Jeph!

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Thread 7

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 07:53 am    Post subject: Ed Brubaker on "Winter Soldier" chronology
By Tragiko

here: 
>>>
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=106188&page=6 
<<<

Brubaker says (about "Captain America #1-14"): 

"We jump ahead 6 months of "real time" in between issues 14 and 16. So it's current with the Avengers" 

therefore, WINTER SOLDIER story-arc takes place before NA1.
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 09:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I think we're agreed that the Winter Soldier story arc occurs before A4 1 and that CA5 10, the HOM tie-in, occurs out of sequence with other issues of CA5. I wonder, though, if CA5 15-17 also lags behind current continuity. Otherwise, Crossbones would be in the Raft in the middle of his subplot with Sin. The 6-month jump (or maybe more) might end up between CA5 17 and 18.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 8

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 09:28 am    Post subject: Loki #1-4
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Any thoughts on placement for this? Now that the series is finished, I don't see any obvious reason why it can't be canon. Odin's in issue #3, so it would have to be set in the past, but that's about it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Oct 2004 11:32 am    
By Andy Holcombe

The gods, especially Loki seem quite old, so I was treating the series as a possible future.

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Posted: 10 Oct 2004 12:12 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Norse Gods ARE old. I don't see anything that suggests it being a possible future, to be honest. The status quo is restored at the end of the story, after all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 May 2005 07:53 pm    
By Somebody

Loki gets his head crashed in at the end of the story.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2005 11:06 pm    
By jannepie

Loki just gets hit very hard, no head crashing involved. We just see Thor swinging Mjolnir towards Loki's head but Loki should survive a hit like that, he's even been beheaded in the past.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 09:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I've just reread the series, and there are a few concrete clues for chronological placement: 

*Thor, Loki, and Odin are all alive and are known to be active in Asgard. 
*Thor is in the classic costume on the covers, and Loki is in the costume with the big horns. 
*Lorelei is alive. She died in the post-Onslaught "Lost Gods" arc in Journey into Mystery, and came back in DEF2 3. 
*Karnilla threatens to summon "Brunnhilde the Valkyrie and the heroes of Midgard", most likely meaning that Brunnhilde is or has been a member of the Defenders. (It could also refer to the dead heroes whose souls she's collected as a Valkyrie, but that's not likely given the conxtext: Karnilla brings this up in reference to Bifrost, the bridge that connects directly to Midgard.) 
*Bifrost the Rainbow Bridge is intact. 

It seems to me that the best (and most recent) time frame for this story to occur in is during the fairly short period between DEF2 3-4 (Lorelei returns to life, and Brunnhilde has her most recent encounter with the heroes of Earth) and T2 36 (the start of the storyline that leads up to Odin's death). If this takes place here, Loki must have been freed from his imprisonment off-panel before he conquered Asgard in his miniseries, and then re-imprisoned in the same fashion, leaving opportunity for Karnilla to free him in T2 36. Karnilla may be mistakenly assuming that the Valkyrie appearing in DEF2 is Brunnhilde, or may be trying to mislead Loki into thinking the same. Since DEF2 4 is (IIRC) Brunnhilde's only meeting with the Defenders after she left the team, there's little reason for Karnilla to think that Brunnhilde is especially close to any mortal heroes, although there's no reason to think that she wouldnt gather a number of superheroes to liberate Asgard if she needed to. 

-Sean

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Thread 9

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 04:02 am    Post subject: The original Brothers Grimm
By jannepie

BROTHERS GRIMM (See also Mr. Doll) 
S-W 3 
S-W 4 
S-W 7 
S-W 11 
S-W 12 

MR. DOLL/NATHAN DOLLY 
S-W 12-FB 
{TOS 48} 
S-W 12-FB 
TOS 48 
A 182-FB 
S-W 12-FB 
S-W 3 
S-W 5 
S-W 7 
S-W 11 
S-W 12 

These are actually the same character, Brothers Grimm being his latest guise. 

Together the lists would seem like this. 

S-W 12-FB 
{TOS 48} 
S-W 12-FB 
TOS 48 
A 182-FB 
S-W 12-FB 
S-W 3 
S-W 4 
S-W 5 (I didn't notice him/them in this issue) 
S-W 7 
**S-W 9 (as Jake and William Dolly, other identities for Brothers Grimm) 
S-W 11 
S-W 12 


(S-W 10 has Nathan's wife, Priscilla, holding a Brother Grimm figure that used to host Nathan's spirit. By now the spirit had moved to the life-sized manikins so the appearance of the figure doesn't really count.)

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 11:35 am    
By jannepie

Another Spider-Woman related character stuff: 

HUNT, JERRY 
S-W 1 
S-W 2 
S-W 3 
S-W 4 
S-W 5 
S-W 6 
S-W 7 
S-W 8 
S-W 9 
S-W 10 
S-W 11 
S-W 12 
S-W 13 
S-W 14 
S-W 15 
S-W 16 
CA 322 
ALIAS 20-BTS 

I couldn't find Jerry in S-W 3 and 5. Where is he?

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 01:09 pm    Post subject: Early Spider-Man chronology questions
By cincy74

Hey, I'm working on a website that that will sumarize every appearance of Peter Parker/Spider-Man in chronological order. While looking through this site's chronological placements, a few questions arose... 

1. Why is PPTSS 252/2-FB listed as the first appearance? Wouldn't ASM@5-FB be first? The way I read the two entries is that in the Amaz Ann, Richard and Mary Parker ask Ben and May to raise Peter while they go away, then in the Spec issue, Richard and Mary depart the following day. 

2. How old was Peter when his parents died? He's pretty young (maybe one or two?) in the ASM 370/2-FB when May and Ben realize they'll have to raise Peter after Peter's parents died. In ASM @5-FB, May comments that Peter's parents died a month after he was dropped off (shown to be an infant in SM:PL), but Peter looks to be around four? Five? In PPSM2 1/2-FB an older Peter (maybe six? seven?) is shown a year after his parents death. Am I reading the entries wrong? Was Peter dropped off multiple times because of the nature of his parents' work? I guess I just need to explain the reasoning behind the placement of each entry before the "Petey Tales" starting in WOSM @5/3. 

3. Speaking of the "Petey Tales", why are they placed before PPTSS -1? In that issue, he meets Flash Thompson for the first time. In the "Petey Tales" he already knows Flash. 

4. Where do the issues with Charlie Weiderman fit in (ASM 515-518)? I believe in 518, Peter says the events in these issues happened a year before he got bit by the spider. That would make it his junior year, right? So maybe between SM:PL page 3 and ASM @1-FB? 

Thanks for any help!

Last edited by cincy74 on 02 Feb 2006 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 29 Jan 2006 05:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Where do the issues with Charlie Weiderman fit in (ASM 515-518)? I believe in 518, Peter says the events in these issues happened a year before he got bit by the spider. That would make it his junior year, right? So maybe between SM:PL page 3 and ASM @1-FB?  
<<<

Peter was bit by the radioactive spider in the spring semester of his sophomore year of high school. The scenes with Wiederman should occur throughout Peter's freshman year of high school.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Jan 2006 05:28 pm    
By Enda80

The high school years of Parker seem real time.

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Posted: 30 Jan 2006 12:38 am    
By JLH

cincy74 wrote: 
>>>
1. Why is PPTSS 252/2-FB listed as the first appearance? Wouldn't ASM@5-FB be first? The way I read the two entries is that in the Amaz Ann, Richard and Mary Parker ask Ben and May to raise Peter while they go away, then in the Spec issue, Richard and Mary depart the following day. 
<<<

I pointed out the problems with it not too long ago, in this thread: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=896 

As you can see, nothing was done about it. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2006 12:56 pm    
By cincy74

Here's another question: In Marvel Knights Spider-Man#20, Peter uses a time machine to visit the day his parents dropped him off with Ben and May. Problem is, May and Ben look way younger than previously shown in such flashbacks, and Peter is probably between 3-5 years old. Which again begs the question, how old was Peter when his parents died? 

Parallel Lives, he was an infant 
Amazing Annual #5, he was a toddler 
Peter Parker Vol2 #1, he was about six 
Marvel Knights Sm #20 around four 

Not enough research being done by writers, and editors not doing their jobs! 

Oh, and would the scene that Peter time travelled to be part of the chronology now? Inserted somewhere near the beginning?

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 01:23 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Unless Marvel offers an explanation for any discrepancies, Parallel Lives would be the canon, since both ASM@5 and PPSM2 1 are both flashbacks. And differences from Parallel Lives would be assumed to be the result of faulty memory. Parallel Lives trumps any discrepancies in M/KSM 20, because it was published first. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 10:31 am    
By cincy74

Thanks for the feedback! I understand what you mean, but wouldn't Parallel Lives technically be a flashback as well? It's not being told in "real time" so to speak. The past events in this story are being told by an adult Peter and Mary Jane. How would their telling of these events be any different than Aunt May saying, "I can still rememeber-- as if it were only yesterday..." in ASM@5?

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 12:33 pm    
By John Simons

If you take another look at Parallel Lives, I think you'll find that the story is not told by an adult Peter and MJ, in fact there is no framing sequence at all and the scenes are not flashbacks. Assuming I understand your definition of "real time", the scenes are indeed presented that way-- it's just that there are some pretty big jumps forward in time between all the scenes. 

I analyzed this gn back in the day; its one of the few instances where something I worked on actually made it into the MCP listings. I'm sure the analysis can be found somewhere in the archives, but good luck trying to find it!
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 05:11 pm    
By Jossik

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Peter was bit by the radioactive spider in the spring semester of his sophomore year of high school. 
<<<

Hello, I have a question about this point. Sorry if there is already an answer somewhere, I havn't so far found it. If SM:PL is canon, then Peter Parker must be fifteen, and not sixteen like I've found almost everywhere. Also, on page 10 of SM:PL there is the reference of "That same fall" about what Mary Jane is doing while Peter Parker is being bitten. On the following pages, we find reference to thanksgiving or after for the day Ben was shot. So do you suppose thet seven months has passed between the birth of Spider-Man and the day Ben was shot, or you suppose simply that SM:PL is not canon, or all the time and weather (red leaves and so on) references in it are topical ? 

Thanks alot, 

Joe

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 06:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The project doesn't eliminate stories from canon based on problems with placing them in a calendar. If the calendar references don't make sense, then they're topical. 


watching: situation room

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 06:52 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Take THAT, Paul! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Feb 2006 08:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I totally agree. What's the prob? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Feb 2006 04:42 pm    
By cincy74

Administrator wrote: 
Unless Marvel offers an explanation for any discrepancies, Parallel Lives would be the canon... because it was published first.  


If Parallel Lives is the be all-end all canon, then we must accept that Peter was most likely still an infant when his parents died. Peter narrates this story and mentions that he doesn't remember his parents and only saw pictures of them when he was seven. 

But what about the entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Spider-Man 2004? Spidey's entry notes that he was orphaned at the age of six. Surely Peter would have remembered what his parents looked like after living with them for about six years. 

Like I noted earlier, I'm trying to summarize Spider-Man's history chronologically, and I'm trying to pinpoint Peter's age when his parents died, while shoe-horning these other events to make things make sense. I guess I can just assume that since Richard and Mary Parker were agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., that there would have been multiple instances where Peter would have been dropped off with his aunt and uncle. 

So maybe his chronology should be rearranged like this: 
PPTSS 225/2-FB: being dropped off as an infant 
SM:PL (1): either the same as above or another time dropped off as an infant 
ASM370/2-FB: seen crawling with parent nearby; also another panel where he is probably a few months older, eating 
ASM@5-FB: dropped off again, as a toddler; and another panel where he is probably 4-5, playing with blocks. 

Peter's parents probably die around this time, explaining his age at the time of his parents death. I don't recall any book where Pete's age is given as six (other than the Handbook) when his parents died, but I guess PPSM2 1/2-FB would be the closest thing, since Peter appears to be 6-7 and the story takes a place a year after his parents died. 

Of course, this same story notes that Peter was already living with his aunt and uncle for a few years before his parents died, so I guess its possible that he wouldn't remember his parents. 

Head. is. going. to. explode.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 15 Feb 2006 01:07 pm    Post subject: Nancy and Ronald Reagan
By captamr

Nancy appears in mutated snake form in CA 344 as does Ronald. He also shares the BTS for CA 343: 

REAGAN, NANCY DAVIS 
A 246 
CA 343  BTS 
*CA 344 

REAGAN, RONALD WILSON 
UX 201 
PPTSS 127  BTS 
*CA 343  BTS 
*CA 344
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject: Marvel Knights Spider-Man #22
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This is purely a Calendar-related request which will have no impact on character chronologies in the MCP. 

I am finished a draft of the revised Calendar and have started to send it in installments to Russ. There's one more thing I'd like to add before it's posted... 

I discovered several days ago that I'm missing the penultimate chapter of "The Other" storyline -- the final issue of Marvel Knights Spider-Man (#22). I haven't been able to lay my hands on a copy, so my Calendar-related request is: can someone provide a brief synopsis of this issue, with day-by-day breakdowns? Does it begin the same day as Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #4 or a specified time afterward? Does Amazing Spider-Man #528 begin the same day as the end of M/KSM 22? Does M/KSM 22 occur all on one day or are there designated passages of time therein? I'd just like to know what dates to assign to M/KS-M 22 for the sake of having it included. 

Thanks to anyone who can help.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Feb 2006 05:27 pm    
By Jason Doty

MK Spider-Man picks up right where the last chapter ends. Spider-Man chases the spider entity around NYC trying to convince it that he is not trying to hurt it. The entity releys a criptic message to him and then escapes through a sidewalk grate. Spider-Man imidiately returns to Avengers tower which is covered by webbing. The Avengers speak with Spider-Man who they think is responsible for the webbing. Later that day, Iron Man and Cap want Spider-Man to stay put untill they can figure out what is going on. 

The next morning, Wolverine speaks with Spider-Man and then Mary Jane. Later he go to Dr.Strange's place to see if he can help him figure out what is going on. Later that evening, Spidey speaks to Aunt May and she assures him he will be ready for anything. At the same time a mysterious webbing is shown on a NYC Church.

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Posted: 16 Feb 2006 07:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks, Jason. However, does ASM #528 pick up the same day, or the next? Or even later? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Feb 2006 07:47 pm    
By Jason Doty

I don't believe I have ASM 528, but I'll double check.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 09:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The next morning,  
<<<

Thanks, Jason. Two follow-up questions... 

Where (page/panel) does the break between days occur? 
How many pages of story are there in this issue?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Feb 2006 09:35 pm    
By Jason Doty

MK Spider-Man no.22 
continued from FNHSM no.4 
(1-8) 

next day 
(9-22)

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 09:44 pm    
By Col_Fury

ASM 528 is not the same day as Marvel Knights 22, it's either the day after, or a few days later. It could be the next day, becuase Tony is giving Peter more tests, but it doesn't have to be. 

Hope that helps!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 10:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks to both Jason and Col_Fury. Now to send that last installment of the Calendar update to Russ.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 05:51 pm    Post subject: House of M #4 character ID?
By BobMM

House of M #4, story page 10: After escaping the Sentinels, Cage's group assesses their losses. Felicia says "Abe and the others might have gotten out." I'm trying to parse this godawful art but I don't see anyone on the page 3-4 spread that might be "Abe". Has anyone figured out who she's referring to?

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 10:13 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Probably Abraham Brown, of the Sons of the Tiger. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 04:25 am    Post subject: Avengers 137-149 and Giant Size X-Men chronology
By benpollard

I'm trying to work out the chronological order of Avengers #137-149, in relation to Giant Size X-Men #1 and Uncanny X-Men #94, and I'm hoping someone can help me. 

I know Captain America #224 takes place between Giant Size X-Men #1 and Uncanny X-Men #94, but do any of the previous appearances of the Beast take place between these isues? 

Thanks in advance for any help. 
Ben

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 10:57 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

GSX 1 occurs first. Then Beast appears in CA 183, A 137-140, M/TU 38, A 141-149, CA 224 and then shows up in UX 94. His appearance in IM 90 occurs after all that.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 11:06 am    
By benpollard

Fantastic. 

Thanks for your help. 

Ben

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 03:48 pm    
By Jason Doty

If Giant Size X-Men 1 occurs in May wouldn't Thor 233 (Winter reference) and Avengers 137-149 occour before Giant Size X-Men 1 rather than between UX 94? 

I think with the many things that now tie into this time period, we might have to re-evaluate this area. 

What does the Avengers Index say about this timeframe?

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 10:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have GSX 1 in May, T 233 the following December (winter), and A 137-149 early in the spring after that. I'm not quite sure what needs re-evaluation.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 10:40 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul Bourcier, 
I guess I got confused looking at this time period from your list over at the Avengers Assemble! Website. Do you have an updated version you could e-mail me. I was also trying to reconcile Uncanny with Avengers in this time period. Your month by month placement is awsome. 

I'd appreciate anything you have to offer.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 09:09 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jason, I just e-mailed you my most up-to-date version of Avengers: Year By Year. Let me know if you don't receive it.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2006 03:36 am    
By benpollard

Looking into the chronology of this era, I've realised that page 7 of X-Men 94 takes place of quite a long period of time. Does anyone know which issues of the Champions take place during this period? 

Thanks, 
Ben

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 18 Feb 2006 10:46 am    Post subject: Daredevil in The Pulse
By garbonzo

I am not sure it has been covered elsewhere, but there was a Daredevil appearance in The Pulse #13. I know that was throwing everyone for a loop since Matt Murdock is in Jail. The recent issue of Daredevil shows a different person (as yet unidentified) posing as Daredevil. This might helpsolve the Pulse problem once we figure out who the mystery Daredevil is. 

Just a thought. 
garbonzo

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Feb 2006 05:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The recent issue of Daredevil shows a different person (as yet unidentified) posing as Daredevil.  
<<<

Really??? Now that's convenient...
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Feb 2006 06:27 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Now, if only Nick Fury would be so helpful.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Feb 2006 07:36 pm    
By garbonzo

And since the person who is shown as Daredevil in the Pulse is never identified as being Matt Murdock, and never gives any indication that he is indeed Murdock, i think this will be an easy one to write off unless of course Murdock talks about it in future Daredevil issues. But, since this is Brubaker writing and not Bendis, the continuity might be tighter.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Feb 2006 09:09 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

However, as of yet, Ben Urich doesn't have any contact with the impostor Daredevil, so he can't have enlisted him to deal with D-Man. (There's obviously no way Ben could have failed to notice, given that he knows Matt's in jail.) 

Of course, it's still possible that Ben will make contact with the impostor at a later stage and that the PULSE appearance will be imputed to him. 

But that may not be necessary at all. We all know Daredevil's getting out at some point, and there's no reason why his scene in PULSE - right at the end of the issue - can't be broken off and set at a later point when Daredevil's free. Urich has a perfectly good motivation for delaying, because Daredevil isn't available.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 19 Feb 2006 06:47 pm    
By garbonzo

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
However, as of yet, Ben Urich doesn't have any contact with the impostor Daredevil, so he can't have enlisted him to deal with D-Man. (There's obviously no way Ben could have failed to notice, given that he knows Matt's in jail.) 
<<<
 
I agree. My hypothesis would be that Ben knows this is not hte real Daredevil and is banking on the fact that D-Man does not know it. I would further postulate that this issue takes place further up the line in DD chronology after Ben learns the imposter's identity (or at least how to contact him). This will take care of the sticky issue of the feds having to release Murdock so he can get into costume to go talk to D-Man, just so he can get locked up again.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Feb 2006 04:36 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I thought we'd covered this already, and decided that it's just before Matt gets arrested. 

The only evidence that this might be AFTER his arrest is Jonah's line, in either Pluse #12 or 13, about how "the Feds got him and he's going down". And at the time I suggested a charitable reading of the line, meaning that Jonah knew from his newspaper contacts that the Feds have built a solid case and are about to strike, and he's confident that Murdock will be going down. 

Think about it this way: Bendis wrote everything in question -- Jonah's line, Daredevil's Pulse appearance, and Daredevil's arrest. Do you think he INTENDED the guy at the end of Pulse #13 to be an imposter? 

We know Bendis is sloppy. We KNOW it. Just read Jonah's line in a sloppy fashion, call this the final appearance of the real Daredevil before his arrest, and go on knowing that it was probably what Bendis meant. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Feb 2006 06:51 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Do you think he INTENDED the guy at the end of Pulse #13 to be an imposter? 
<<<

Possibly. I'm sure that Bendis was, at the very least, aware of Brubaker's plans for Daredevil when he was writing this issue. He might have decided to throw readers a curve by having the impostor appear in The Pulse before the impostor was revealed as such in DD's own series - on the other hand, he might have decided to leave it purposely vague. I'd suggest waiting until the current storylines in both series are concluded before deciding that this Daredevil must be either Matt Murdock or the Daredevil impostor. The next issue of Pulse might very well confirm that this is or is not Murdock. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 05:44 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The only evidence that this might be AFTER his arrest is Jonah's line, in either Pluse #12 or 13, about how "the Feds got him and he's going down".  
<<<

I don't have the issue to hand, but isn't there also a newspaper somewhere with a reference to the Murdock Papers? If so, there's no opportunity for Matt to appear anywhere between the Papers becoming public knowledge, and his arrest later the same day.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 07:23 am    
By JD

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I don't have the issue to hand, but isn't there also a newspaper somewhere with a reference to the Murdock Papers? 
<<<

Yes. Pages 19-20 of #13: 
The Daily Bugle headlines : "Spider-Man menace : how much does the web-crawler know about the Murdock Papers ?" (with pictures of Murdock and Fisk).

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 08:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Right. Well, in that case it's after Matt's arrest and Jonah's comment must be in reference to him awaiting trial (which makes more sense anyway). So the Daredevil appearance right at the end of the story is either after he gets out, or it's the impostor (if upcoming issues of DD2 permit that). QED.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 01:02 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm not seeing "QED" in the Key. Is that some kind of shorthand for "there's no other possible interpretation for these events"? 

Because I'm sticking with "Bendis is sloppy". Here's hoping Pulse #14 sheds some light on the situation, but I honestly don't think it will. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 01:16 pm    
By JD

Nearly. It's short for "Quod Erat Demonstrandum", which means "Which is what I wanted to prove".

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 05:09 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Quod erat demonstrandum: literally, "because it has been proved." Indicates that a logical proof is complete.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2006 12:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks! Guess I'd better brush up on my Latin... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 23 Feb 2006 03:58 pm    Post subject: Is Fin Fang 4 canon?
By scottandrewhutchins

This issue seems like a Not Brand Ecch joke, especially in light of Next Wave #1. Is it canon?

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Feb 2006 08:11 pm    
By Somebody

I don't see why not. And Nextwave isn't canon, so that's neither here nor there...

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 01:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Sigh. 

We've decided that already, have we? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 29 Dec 2004 07:46 pm    Post subject: No listing for Red Sonja?
By meyakus

what's up with that?

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2004 08:38 pm    
By Ant-Man

The Hyborian Age is kind of...missing 
You might have noticed that there is also no Conan entry...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2004 11:49 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

It's on our "to do" list...along with Marvel UK, a full listing of MC-2 and 2099 comics, and any other "on-the-side universes" published by Marvel... 

Our main priority is simply Earth-616 comics...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2004 05:52 am    
by Enda80

http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=712&s=2a5fbb298bfd2133c85a06e77f602395 


http://www.marvunapp.com/master/ 
RED SONJA of the Hyborean era  Hyrkanian swordswoman, worshipped Mitra, Tarim, Erlik, & Scathach?, swore not to love any man who couldnt defeat her in combat 
-originally written in the 16th Century as Red Sonya 
--(g)"Magic Carpet" (Jan1934); Conan the Barbarian I#23 (Savage Sword of Conan#78/2(fb), Kull and the Barbarians#3, Marvel Feature II#1, Conan the Barbarian#23,24, Savage Sword of Conan#1/2, CtB#42, 48, SSC#1, SSC12, Savage Sword of Conan#45/4, CtB#43,44, 48, Kull and the Barbarians#2, Marvel Feature II#6, CtB#66,67, MarvFeat#7, SSC78/2, 194/2,195/2, 207/2-210/2, CtB249, SSC144, 223/2, 224/2, 230/2, 226-232, 23, 23/3 
Conan the King# 

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/hosted/adil...sonja/sonja.htm 
Kull & the Barbarians 3 (origin story); also Savage Sword of Conan 78 (same story, different artist) "The Day of the Sword" 
Conan the Barbarian 23 (Red Sonja's first appearance) "The Shadow of the Vulture" 
Conan the Barbarian 24 "The Song of Red Sonja" 
Marvel Feature 1 "Red Sonja" 
Savage Sword of Conan 153 "Phantasm" 
Savage Sword of Conan 187 "Red Sonja Quells the Song of the Siren" 
Savage Sword of Conan 1 "Curse of the Undead Man" 
Conan the Barbarian 43 "Tower of Blood" 
Conan the Barbarian 44 "Of Flame and the Fiend" 
Red Sonja (series 3) 3 "Seige" (flashback portion only) 
Conan the Barbarian 48 "Episode" 
Kull and the Barbarians 2 "Red Sonja, She Devil with a Sword" 
Marvel Feature 1 "The Temple of Abomination" 
Savage Sword of Conan 78 "The Day of the Sword" 
Marvel Feature 6 "Beware the Sacred Sons of Set" 
Conan the Barbarian 66 "Daggers and Death Gods" 
Conan the Barbarian 67 "Talons of the Man Tiger" 
Marvel Feature 7 "The Battle of the Barbarians" 
Conan the Barbarian 68 "Of Once and Future Kings" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 1 "The Blood of the Unicorn" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 2 "The Demon of the Maze" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 3 "The Games of Gita" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 4 "The Lake of the Unknown" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 5 "Master of the Bells" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 6 "The Singing Tower" 
Savage Sword of Conan "Wizards of the Black Sun" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 7 "Throne of Blood" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 8 "Vengeance of the Golden Circle" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 9 "Chariot of the Fire Stallions" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 10 "Red Lace" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 11 "Sightless in a Strange Land" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 12 "Ashes and Emblems" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 13 "Shall Skranos Fall?" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 14 "An Evening of the Border" 
Red Sonja (Series 1) 15 "The Tomb of Three Dead Kings" 
Conan the Barbarian 115 "A War of Wizards" 
Marvel Super Special 9 " Day of the Red Judgement" 
Red Sonja (Series 2) 1 "The Blood that Binds" 
Red Sonja (Series 2) 2 "The Sea that Steals" 
Savage Sword of Conan 225 "Valeria of the Red Brotherhood" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 2 "Blood Debt" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 3 "Siege" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 4 "Lassusar Must Die" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 8 "The Queen of Ice and Blood" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 9 "The Queen of Hearts" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 10 "Strangers" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 11 "Buried Alive" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 12 "Descent" 
Red Sonja (Series 3) 13 "The Demon's Tooth" 
Conan the Barbarian 195 "Blood of Ages" 
Conan the Barbarian 196 "The Beast" 
Conan the Barbarian 197 "Stand" 
Conan the Barbarian 198 "The River" 
Conan the Barbarian 199 "Revelation in the Mists" 
Conan Annual 12 "Legion of the Dead" 
Conan the Barbarian 200 "The Fall of Acheron" 
Conan the Barbarian 240 "Goblin" 
Conan the Barbarian 205 "Necropolis" 
Conan the Barbarian 241 "All Roads Lead to Zamora" 
Conan the Barbarian 242 "They Came to Castle Zukala" 
Conan the Barbarian 243 "Dawn and Death Gods" 
Conan the Barbarian 244 "Fiends of the Flaming Mountains" 
Conan the Barbarian 245 "Empire of the Undead" 
Conan the Barbarian 246 "Chaos in Khoraja" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Conan the Barbarian 247 "The Sword that Conquers All" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Conan the Barbarian 248 "The Peril and the Prophecy" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Conan the Barbarian 249 "Red Wind" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Conan the Barbarian 250 "Chaos Beneath Kuthchemes" (Note: This takes place around the time of "Black Colossus") 
Savage Sword of Conan 207 "Diverging Paths" 
Savage Sword of Conan 208 "All in the Game" 
Savage Sword of Conan 209 "Battles Lost and Won" 
Savage Sword of Conan 210 "End of the Road" 
Savage Sword of Conan 229 "A Bride for Varitra" 
Savage Sword of Conan 192 "Red Sonja on the Road of Kings" 
Savage Sword of Conan 230-233 "The Ring of Ikribu" 
Conan: The Ravagers Out of Time (Graphic Novel) 
Savage Sword of Conan 223 "The Many Mirrors of Tuzan Thune" 
Savage Sword of Conan 224 "Dragons of the World's Dawn" 
Savage Sword of Conan 226 "Of Kings and Cataclysms" 
Savage Sword of Conan 227 "Days of the World's Ending" 
Savage Sword of Conan 228 "Back From Time's Abyss" 
Savage Sword of Conan 229 "Assault on Acheron" 
Savage Sword of Conan 230 "The Fall of Python" 
Savage Sword of Conan 144 "The Waiting Doom" 
Savage Sword of Conan 145 "Feast of the Stag" 
Savage Sword of Conan 179 "Fury of the Iron Damsels" 
Conan the King 28 "Call of the Wild" 
Marvel Team-Up I#79 of course, comes last, as her ghost returns from the dead 


Not included is Red Sonja: Scavenger Hunt and Conan the Savage#9

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Feb 2006 07:34 am    
By meyakus

where does Marvel Feature 2-7 fit in all of that?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Feb 2006 08:07 am    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
It's on our "to do" list...along with Marvel UK, a full listing of MC-2 and 2099 comics, and any other "on-the-side universes" published by Marvel... 

Our main priority is simply Earth-616 comics... 
<<<

Ummm... aren't most Marvel UK comics 616 comics? Hell, aren't they 616 BY DEFINITION since the term originated in MUK comics?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Feb 2006 04:40 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So is Conan. 

Kevin meant that our priority is stuff published by Marvel US, occuring in the Silver/Modern Age. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Feb 2006 04:58 pm    
By Dhall

It would probably help the matter, if someone submitted issue analysis for Hyborean Age, Marvel UK, etc. titles. For the most part, and rightly so, posters submit analysis for the books they're most interested in, or books with guest appearances of the characters they're most interested in. the quickest way to get a Red Sonja listing, would be to start submitting issue analysis for the comics she appears in.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Feb 2006 02:28 pm    
By Frederic Krier

Hi, 
I've recently read the Adventures of Red Sonja Tpb (Dynamite Entertainment), which reprints all seven Marvel Feature issues with Red Sonja. 
Issue 1, Story 1 takes place right after CTB 24 (and is a reprint from SSOC 1 anyway); Issue 1, Story 2 and issues 2, 3, 4, and 5 are all stand-alone stories. Right after that comes issue 6 which leads right into issue 7, both feature Conan. I don't know how you could squeeze CTB 66-67 between those two issues as there is no passage of time between the last page of issue 6 and the first page of issue 7, but on the other hand I don't own the Conan issues. Also don't know why in the list above SSOC 78 (which I don't own either) comes in just after Marvel Feature 1, story 2, as it seems to be just a retelling of the origin story. Anyway, Marvel Feature 2-5 are probably meant to fit between Marvel Feature 1, story 2 (or SSOC 78?) and Marvel Feature 6. 

I could try to do an analysis of these issues, but it might take me some time and I've never done something of the like before. Is it OK though to make analyses of Marvel Comics if the source is actually a reprint from another company? 

f.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Feb 2006 05:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Frederic Krier wrote: 
>>>
I could try to do an analysis of these issues, but it might take me some time and I've never done something of the like before. Is it OK though to make analyses of Marvel Comics if the source is actually a reprint from another company? 
<<<

It's okay, as long as (a) your analysis makes note of this, and (b) we can be reasonably sure that nothing has been deleted from or added to the original stories. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 12:37 am    
By Frederic Krier

Comparing the page count with those given by the Grand Comics Database Project, it looks like these are complete reprints. Only the covers are missing. 

I'll post an analysis of these seven issues in the next couple of days. 

Oh, and on second look, CTB 66 and 67 do fit in between Marvel Feature 6 and 7; it's just that the ending of issue 6 and the start of issue 7 are rather similar (both have Sonja charging towards Conan and Belit). 

f.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 06:08 am    
By Enda80

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1125&highlight=ibis 

I did a synopsis of Marvel Feature Presents Red Sonja#6 already.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 01:16 pm  
By jephyork
Director

However, Frederic, don't let that stop you from producing an analysis of your own if you like... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 01:22 pm    Post subject: War Machine ashcan - wtf?
By jephyork
Director

I'm not too familiar with the War Machine series, but I found the ashcan issue at a convention recently and -- it can't be canon, can it? 

The plot goes basically like this: James Rhodes watches the news, angry with the state of the world. He suits up, flies to what I think is Tienemen Square, and kicks some ass. Then Hydra and AIM show up and he kicks their asses. Then a 50-foot-tall, original-costume Iron Man shows up and he kicks HIS ass. Then he flies towards a large group of supervillains, preparing to kick ass... 

The issue says "continued in War Machine #1", but I don't think that's literal -- I certainly don't recall War Machine #1 opening with Rhodey kicking the asses of forty or fifty supervillains. 

This issue reads like a child's power trip. Did it literally happen? Did it happen in Rhodey's head? Did it not happen at all? 

If anyone has some insight on how/if this ... thing ... fits, I'd appreciate it... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 05:13 pm    
By Chris McCarver

I have that one myself. 

My take? Dream sequence.
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 10:29 pm    Post subject: A stab at post HOM X-chronology
By Hotcharokey

I offer the following for your dining and dancing pleasure. Feel free to build on to it or to tear it down. 

M-DAY 

HOM #8, page 6, panels 1-5: Emma wakes up on the grass and starts to get up. 

New X-M #20, page 4, panels 2-6: Emma is standing up, hears a cry for help, runs to the school. 

HOM #8, page 6, panels 6-7: Emma runs to the school and opens the door. 

New XM #20, pp. 5-8: Panic spreads through the school. Emma enters the school. 

HOM #8, pp. 7-14: The X-Men deal with the decimation. Emma uses Cerebro to estimate the mutant population. Laurie, Sophie, and Brian are wearing their costumes. 

New XM #20, pp. 9-17: Laurie, Sophie, and Brian have changed out of their costumes. Kevin touches Laurie. Emma asks Hank to rescue Melody and Logan to find Hydro. Emma uses Cerebro a second time to re-estimate the mutant population. 

Generation M #1, pp. 13-14: Cyclops and Wolverine save Chambers life. 

HOM #8, pp. 20-22: Astonishing X-Men travel to Genosha and confront Magneto. 

Mutopia X #5, pp. 14-22: Bishop prevents Ortega from killing himself. 

1 DAY AFTER M-DAY 

HOM: The Day After #1, pp. 4-30: A bunch of stuff happens. 

New Excalibur #1 - New Excalibur #3: Betsy, Kurt, Rachel, and Kitty arrive in England and help Captain Britain, Tessa, Nocturne, Dazzler, and Juggernaut defeat the evil X-Men. This story starts during the night in England, which would be late afternoon in New York, and ends in the morning, which would be around 1:00 AM or 2:00 AM in New York. 

2 DAYS AFTER M-DAY 

New XM #20, pp. 19-22: Emma tells Danielle Moonstar to leave the school. Wolverine calls X-23 and tells her to return to the school. 

HOM: The Day After #1, pp. 31-39: The Sentinels arrive. The intro to XM #177 says that this occurs 2 weeks after M-Day, but that is probably a mistake. Most likely, this occurs 2 days, not 2 weeks, after M-Day, on the same day as NXM #20, pp19-20. 

XM #177 - XM #179: X-Men battle the Sentinels and the Sapien League. Betsy appears in XM #179, page 11, but that has to be a mistake because she is in England at this time. On the last page of XM #179, Havok says that he is leaving with Lorna "whenever she goes," indicating that she was not planning to leave right away. 

SEVERAL DAYS AFTER M-DAY 

XM: The 198 #1: Mutants start arriving at the school and tents go up to hold them all. 

UXM #466 - UXM #468, pp. 1-19: Kurt, Betsy, and Rachel return from England. The Sentinels are guarding the mansion. The tent city from X-Men: The 198 #1" is seen on page 6. The ShiAr massacre the Greys 

New Excalibur #4, pp. 7-8: Nocturne calls Kurt from England. Kurt and Betsy are in the infirmary recovering from injuries. 

New XM #21, pp. 4-20: Hank, Peter, Kitty, and the students watch news coverage of M-Day and Reverend Stryker. And other stuff happens, too. 

New XM #22: Danielle says goodbye to the students and leaves the school. Emma and Scott disagree about X-23 staying at the school. 

XM: Kitty Pryde #1, page 1: Kitty receives a letter from Japan. 

UXM #468, pp. 20-22: Kitty, Betsy, and Rachel attend the Greys funerals. Kitty leaves and asks Betsy to take care of Rachel. Betsy was well enough to attend the funeral, but returns to the infirmary in UXM #469. 

XM: Kitty Pryde #1, pp. 2-24 - XM: Kitty Pryde #5: Kittys solo adventure in Japan. 

UXM #469 - UXM #471. Rachels revenge. 

XM: Deadly Genesis #1 - XM: Deadly Genesis #6 

XM #180, pp. 1-5: Alex and Lorna leave the mansion. 

2 WEEKS AFTER M-DAY 

(Here is a large gap that gives Wolverine time to spend with the Avengers and to attempt to figure out what his memories mean.) 

New XM #20, pp. 22-23: Emma discovers that Jay Guthries wings have been amputated. 

New XM #21, pp. 21-22: Hank and Emma treat Jay in the infirmary 


3 OR MORE WEEKS AFTER M-DAY 

(Here is another large gap that gives Wolverine more time to spend with the Avengers and to figure out what his memories mean.) 

XM #180, pp. 6-22 - X-Men #185: Occurs 3 weeks after X-M #180, pp. 1-5.

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Posted: 07 Feb 2006 10:45 pm    
By Jason Doty

Isn't the Kitty Pryde mini pre-HOM?

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 08:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

I agree that the intro page in X #177, stating it to be two weeks after M-Day, has got to be incorrect -- but why not place New Excalibur #1-3 *after* X #179, to account for Psylocke's presence in the latter issue? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 10:09 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Isn't the Kitty Pryde mini pre-HOM? 
<<<

I put it here because Kitty is shown leaving at the end of UXM #468. As far as I can remember, the only time that she leaves the mansion or her teammates is during her mini-series. 

As far as I could tell, placing the mini-series here doesn't seem to cause any problems to the Silver Samurai's chronology. 

Why do you think that it is pre-HOM? 

Mark

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 10:13 pm    
By Hotcharokey

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I agree that the intro page in X #177, stating it to be two weeks after M-Day, has got to be incorrect -- but why not place New Excalibur #1-3 *after* X #179, to account for Psylocke's presence in the latter issue? 
<<<

In HOM: The Day After #1, page 17, Cyclops tells Kurt to put together a squad and to go to England. There seems to be an overall sense of urgency among the X-Men to learn what happened on M-Day, therefore, it makes sense that Kurt and his squad would leave for England right away. 

In HOM: The Day After #1, pages 38-39, the Sentinels land on the grounds of the Xavier Institute. Most of the X-Men who were present in the War Room on pages 11-12 are pictured outside watching the Sentinels land. Kurt, Kitty, Rachel, and Betsy are not pictured, however, suggesting that they were not present at the school when the Sentinels arrived. Lorna was also not pictured, but she was probably hiding somewhere because she saw the Sentinels and was afraid that one of her teammates would ask her to use her powers, which she lost, on the giant robots. 

In HOM: The Day After #1, page 23, Roger MacEwan contacts Courtney Ross on the phone. MacEwan is afraid for his life because someone is chasing him. At one point, he drops the phone and runs away. 

In New Excalibur #1, page 4, MacEwan is running for his life and runs into Dazzler. The evil X-Men attack and kill them. Kurt, Kitty, Rachel, Betsy, Nocturne, and the Juggernaut arrive in England and are reunited with Captain Britain. Pete Wisdom arrives and tells them that Dazzler was killed and that they are needed in London. It seems to me as though this story is a direct continuation of HOM: The Day After #1, page 23, and occurs on the same night. 

If the story in New Excalibur #1-3 occurs after X-Men #179 and if the events in HOM: The Day After #1, pages 38-39, and X-Men #177-179 occur two days (not two weeks) after M-Day, then that must mean that Roger MacEwan was running away from the evil X-Men for three days. That doesnt seem to make sense because he was no match for them, unless they were just toying with him for a while. 

Mark

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 10:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Why can't HOM: the Day After pp.17-39, X-Men #177-179 and New Excalibur #1-3 all occur the same day, in that order? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 11:12 pm    
By Col_Fury

Shadow & Flame has the Silver Samurai acting like an honorable and decent guy: he let Kitty borrow his family's ancestral sword. Also, he remembered being challenged by Wolverine in an honorable combat. 

In Rogue 7-12, the 'last few years' of his memories were erased, turning him back into a not-so-nice guy. 

I would think this would mean that Shadow & Flame takes place before Rogue 7-12. 

Rogue 7-12 happen before X-Men 171, which is where Rogue's new flame powers are revealed, an an editor's box tells us this is after the Rogue arc. X-Men 171 is well before HoM. 

So if Shadow & Flame is before Rogue 7-12, and Rogue 7-12 is before X-Men 171, and that's before HoM, then Shadow & Flame should be before HoM.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 11:18 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Trouble is, Silver Samurai is back to "honorable nice guy" in A4 #11-15, which are post-HoM. It looks like he got his memories back off-panel. 

Either way, this has got to occur before W3 #36-40 -- the poor guy loses an arm in #37! 

Did Claremont give any hints where Kitty was going in UX #468? Did it look like he was making a "Shadow & Flame" reference, or was he possibly setting up his own upcoming storyline? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 11:48 pm    
By Hotcharokey

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Why can't HOM: the Day After pp.17-39, X-Men #177-179 and New Excalibur #1-3 all occur the same day, in that order? 
<<<

In New Excalibur #1, page 15, Wisdom tells the mutant heroes that ice was found at the scene of Dazzler's death. Kurt responds, "It can't be Iceman, Peter. Not only is Bobby in America, but he has lost his powers -- completely." If Kurt, Kitty, Betsy, and Rachel were present during the arrival of the Sentinels and the ensuing battle, they would know that Bobby got his powers back during the battle. 

Marksalot

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 12:00 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Huh. Good point. Any way we can reconcile Betsy's appearance in X #179? Is the art sloppy enough that it might have been another character? Could we claim she's astrally projecting herself? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:17 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Huh. Good point. Any way we can reconcile Betsy's appearance in X #179? Is the art sloppy enough that it might have been another character? 
<<<

Nope. 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Could we claim she's astrally projecting herself? 
<<<

She has no telepathy & she's immune to others' telepathy these days whether she wants to be or not, remember... 

Simple solution - X177-179 are M-Day+1, same day as Day After (only the intern who wrote the X177 recap page appears to have thought otherwise...). Nightcrawler's team are unavoidably delayed by the Sentinels turning up. Once they're done, they sneak out and take the Blackbird to England at top speed.

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That's what *I* just suggested -- but I was countered by Hotcharokey's mention of the fact that Nightcrawler's team doesn't know that Iceman got his powers back. Which happened in the middle of the Sentinel battle. 

Is there a way to say that Kurt's team simply didn't find out about Iceman's power return? How public was everyone with that fact? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:52 pm    
By Somebody

We don't see any UXM team members after the Sentinel/Sapien League/X-Men fight ends, or on-panel at any point with the restored Iceman. Since by that point they knew the Sentinels were sticking around, they may just have sprinted for the jet before a Sentinel sat on the basketball court.

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 10:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This could be a problem. Let's see what the implications of this are... 

Okay, so X 177-179 occur immediately before XCAL4 1, so soon before that Kurt does not know the news about Bobby's powers returning. 

Then XCAL4 1-3 occur, immediately followed by UX 466 (in which Kurt and company jet back from Britain, where they were in XCAL4 3). Rachel's dropped off at the Greys, where she stays through UX 468. XCAL4 4 occurs right after that, given the news of the Greys' deaths is broadcast and Kurt and Betsy are recuperating from UX 468. Actually, they're also in the Institute infirmary in the beginning of UX 469, which I'd argue occurs earlier the day of XCAL4 4. Storm's still in Africa in UX 469 and it appears from her conversation with Bishop that she hasn't been at the Institute since before HOM (but maybe that's not so). The end of UX 469 might occur a while after this, and one gets the impression that X:DG hasn't happened yet. 

X:DG 1-6 has to occur after at least the beginning of UX 469, given that Rachel's back with the X-Men. But Alex and Lorna are STILL with the group -- talk about prolonging their leave after announcing it in X 179! But it's not that long...X:DG occurs the "week" after M-Day. It's just a very packed week! Then again, UX 466 is supposed to occur "a couple of weeks" after M-Day and so seemingly after X:DG, but the Bobby thing must place it very shortly after M-Day! 

Then we have Alex and Lorna leaving in X 180...finally. That leads to the whole Doop and Apocalypse plot "three weeks" later. 

Then there's that pesky NC3 12, in which Alex (presumably) and Lorna (definitely) are with the team...and so is Storm! Maybe this gets placed somewhere around X:DG and Ororo is just visiting. 

Of course, if we consider the snow in UX 468 and Kurt's late October birthday in NC3 12, that would put Storm back at the Institute (probably just visiting) before UX 469. Bishop's not present in NC3 12, so that might excuse the dialog between Ororo and Bishop in UX 369. And Rachel's not in NC3 12, so it might occur while Rachel's staying with the Greys. 

Holy shades of Reload! This requires more thought... :?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 10:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Ugh, just put NC3 #12 pre-HOM and be done with it. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 10 Feb 2006 08:03 am    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Ugh, just put NC3 #12 pre-HOM and be done with it. 
<<<

Doesn't work. There's a deIced Iceman in there. 

And Paul B, if you're going to insist on X:DG rather than, say, XDG as the code, tick the "Disable Smilies" box, huh?

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Posted: 10 Feb 2006 10:35 am    
By jephyork
Director

I don't yet own the issue, but from what I've read on here, nobody's made a positive ID that it's him. 

My feeling is, if it's easier on everyone's chronologies to put it pre-HOM, and we don't know that it's Iceman -- let's put it pre-HOM and use that as a basis to determine that it's NOT Iceman. 

(Alternately, if you MUST say it's him, call it an art error or an image-inducer -- like we did when Iceman was shown in human form in Marvel Holiday Special 2004/2.) 

-Jeph! 
[P.S.: Paul B., I edited your post to disable smilies.]

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Posted: 10 Feb 2006 10:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I agree, I think Iceman's presence is the most easily ignored element of that scene. It's a non-speaking part and it's arguable that it's not even meant to be him. It doesn't affect the scene. The presence of Storm is more significant because she's not even on the continent during this period.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Feb 2006 10:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The presence of Storm is more significant because she's not even on the continent during this period. 
<<<

But do we know for sure that she's never come back from Africa for even a short time since before HOM?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 03:13 am  
By jephyork
Director

Bishop's dialogue in the most recent UXM certainly suggests that, yes. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 10:50 am    
By Jason Doty

What dialog? Storm contacts Bishop because she heard about the Grey's and is upset because they have done nothing. 

The best solution would be to say that Storm appeared as a hologram in Nightcrawler no.12 (a very good one) and then in Uncanny the same way but is more visable as a hologram do to her anger which Bishop points out. 

The best spot would be following X:DG inbetween the issue of X-Men where Havok and Polaris left.

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 11:57 am    
By jephyork
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
What dialog? 
<<<

I'd have to go back to my store and read the issue again to get an exact quote for you (the perils of Waiting For The Trade -- ugh), but upon my first reading, I concur with Paul B. that: 


Quote: 
>>>
Storm's still in Africa in UX 469 and it appears from her conversation with Bishop that she hasn't been at the Institute since before HOM 
<<<

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The best solution would be to say that Storm appeared as a hologram in Nightcrawler no.12 (a very good one) 
<<<

That's only the best solution IF the unidentified character is Iceman. If it isn't, then the best solution is to place it before Storm leaves. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 07:17 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Simple solution - X177-179 are M-Day+1, same day as Day After (only the intern who wrote the X177 recap page appears to have thought otherwise...). Nightcrawler's team are unavoidably delayed by the Sentinels turning up. Once they're done, they sneak out and take the Blackbird to England at top speed. 
<<<

Pages 31-39 of the Day After and XM 177-179 probably occur at least two days after M-Day. On page 31 of the Day After, some of the students are shown leaving the school and some conversations are shown (or heard?) in word bubbles. While students are leaving, someone says, "Didja hear, they fired Miss Moonstar." Moonstar actually gets fired in NXM #20, page 19. The firing occurs two days after M-Day, according to the first panel of page 19. 

If pages 31-39 of the Day After and XM 177-179 occur after Moonstar gets fired, which happens 2 days after M-Day, then space opens up on the first day after M-Day to place New Excalibur #1-3 there, the night before the students leave and the Sentinels arrive. 

The only problem then is Psylocke's appearance in XM #178. I think that it is a mistake and should be ignored, just like Rachel's comment in UXM 466 that M-Day occurred "a couple of weeks ago" was a mistake. Mistakes happen. Joe Quesada admitted that they made a mistake when Mary Jane Parker's arm was broken in one chapter of "The Other" and unbroken in the next chapter. 

Mark

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 07:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Around here, mistakes don't happen without a fight.  

I'd be much more inclined to ignore offhand references to the passage of time than I would be to ignore a blatantly on-panel character. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 08:03 pm 
By Hotcharokey

Well, since I'm a lover and not a fighter, I offer the following: 

1 DAY AFTER M-DAY 

HOM: The Day After #1, pages 1-21. 

2 DAYS AFTER M-DAY 

New XM #20, pp. 19-22: Emma fires Danielle Moonstar. Wolverine calls X-23 and tells her to return to the school. 

HOM: The Day After #1, pages 22-39: Courtney Ross receives call. The non-mutant students leave. Word of Moonstar's firing have spread. Oh, and the Sentinels arrive. 

XM #177 - XM #179: X-Men battle the Sentinels and the Sapien League. Betsy appears in XM #179, page 11. (Behind the scenes: Betsy, Kurt, Rachel, Kitty, Nocturne, and the Juggernaut sneak out in the middle of the battle and leave for England, before learning that Bobbys powers have returned.) 

New Excalibur #1 - New Excalibur #3: Betsy, Kurt, Rachel, and Kitty arrive in England and help Captain Britain, Tessa, Nocturne, Dazzler, and Juggernaut defeat the evil X-Men. This story starts during the night in England, which would be late afternoon in New York, and ends in the morning, which would be around 1:00 AM or 2:00 AM in New York.

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 09:32 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
What dialog? Storm contacts Bishop because she heard about the Grey's and is upset because they have done nothing.  
<<<

Let's break this dialog down... 

Storm's hologram appears and Bishop says: "Ororo. Been a while. You look well." Storm could have visited the Institute briefly prior to this (maybe to pick up some personal belongings or whatever) at the time od NC3 12. Bishop wasn't there (he's not in NC3 12), so they didn't encounter each other. 

After Bishop fills Storm in on the details surrounding the murder of the Greys, Ororo says, 'I'm coming home." Bishop says, "Don't." Storm says, "I beg your pardon?" Bishop says, "Intervention by you at this stage won't help. Plain fact is, you're better off where you are. As a free agent, you give the X-Men -- and mutants in general -- options. The rest of us, we're kind of in a box right now." Storm replies, "Rachel grew up imprisoned by Sentinels. This must be a nightmare for her." Bishop says, "For us all." 

Storm's speculating about Rachel doesn't necessarily mean she hasn't been to the Institute following M-Day. Ororo could have been visiting in NC3 12 after M-Day, but Rachel wasn't at the Institute either. The sticky issue is Storm's ability to leave the Institute after having visited with all those Sentinels around. If we're saying that's a truly de-iced Bobby in NC3 12, then Storm would have to be there after M-Day, and likely after the Sentinels arrive. But, of course, if Ororo did escape, it wouldn't be the only time a mutant has managed to leave the grounds. 

You might read Ororo's dialog as coming from ignorance about the Sentinel situation, but the dialog really doesn't preclude her having had first-hand experience with O*N*E at the Institute. She could have paid her visit, got the heck out of there to return to Africa, and offered to return again to be there for Rachel. 

There's really no outright statement anywhere that Ororo's been absent from the Institute since before HOM. You can pretty much fill in the blanks as you wish. 

A related question deals with Polaris. For possible calendar reasons (Kurt's birthday in NC3 12), I'm asking myself if NC3 12 might even occur after the Apocalypse storyline in X 180-184. If her status quo after this is to be one of Apocalypse's Horsemen, then her appearance in NC3 13 must occur before X 180.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Feb 2006 12:14 pm    
By Somebody

I think, whatever the case of everything else, there is no way in the world Nightcrawler #12 is post-BoA

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Posted: 12 Feb 2006 12:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I stared at that for a long time before realizing it wasn't a typo for "HoM'. 

You mean "Blood of Apocalypse", don't you? X #182-186? 

Somebody, you scanned and posted the Psylocke panel from X #179 -- can you do the same for "Iceman" in NC3 #12? I'd like to focus on analyzing whether or not it's actually him, instead of focusing on whether we could bend circumstances to allow Storm to visit the mansion post-HoM... 

And, Hotcharokey, congratulations on suggesting the same order of events I suggested in posts #3 and 6 of this thread, and Somebody suggested in post #11...  Looks like we have a consensus. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Feb 2006 06:32 pm  
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I stared at that for a long time before realizing it wasn't a typo for "HoM'. 
<<<

You mean "Blood of Apocalypse", don't you? X #182-186? 

LOL. Yep (c'mon, "A"'s nowhere near "M" on a keyboard  


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Somebody, you scanned and posted the Psylocke panel from X #179 -- can you do the same for "Iceman" in NC3 #12? I'd like to focus on analyzing whether or not it's actually him, instead of focusing on whether we could bend circumstances to allow Storm to visit the mansion post-HoM... 
<<<

Here - http://i1.tinypic.com/nod5jt.jpg 

Actually, it's a very odd lineup - the whole AXM team, even Frost, but only Storm & Psylocke from NC's own team. Where's Rachel at least for crying out loud?! (the redhead's a NC-book supporting character - & this is a reason in and of itself, IMO, for putting it while Rachel's off-grounds for Grey's End... although we don't see Sentinels in the numerous shots of the grounds)

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Posted: 12 Feb 2006 07:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Regarding Nightcrawler's birthday... There may be no reason to place NC3 12 (6-22) on the same day as UX@ 4. Back in UX@ 4, the X-Men celebrated what Kurt believed to be his birthday -- the birthday "given" to him by his adoptive mother Margali Szardos. In the years since, Kurt has discovered the identity of his true mother (Mystique) and the circumstances of his birth, including perhaps his real birthday. I can't recall the specifics, but would this make sense? If Margali assigned Kurt's birthday to be the day he entered her life, what would be the time span between Kurt's birth and that event?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Feb 2006 09:00 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks for the scan, Somebody! Okay, so the redhead's Christine Palmer, not Rachel Summers, right? 

Everyone else standing on ground level is fairly easy to identify ... and we're assuming that the guy standing to Polaris' left (our right) is Havok, yes? 

And the fellow in question, that we think is Iceman, is standing at the head of the stairs -- right? 

Well in that case, my question is -- who are the three other guys on the landing? 

If the answer turns out to be "nobody important, just some friends of Kurt's" ... then why can't the same be said of the guy at the head of the stairs? Why does he have to be Iceman? 

Rationalizing a post-HoM Storm appearance means inventing a sequence of events where she comes to visit, the Sentinels let her leave, then later (in UX #469) Bishop warns her against coming back, and implies that the Sentinels wouldn't let her leave. 

Whereas rationalizing a pre-HoM placement for this issue simply means assuming the guy at the head of the stairs is Just Another Partygoer; nobody of importance. And since we don't have a single shred of evidence that he's meant to be Iceman, other than that he's a white guy with brown hair ... well, the simpler solution seems obvious to me. 

Quote: 
>>>
Regarding Nightcrawler's birthday... 
<<<

"Kurt's birthdate" would seem to me to be solely a calendar consideration, and not a clue the MCP should consider when determining placement. I wouldn't strain your brain trying to come up with a rationale for why this issue doesn't need to be placed on the same date as UX@ 4. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Feb 2006 09:16 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Thanks for the scan, Somebody! Okay, so the redhead's Christine Palmer, not Rachel Summers, right? 
<<<

Correct. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Everyone else standing on ground level is fairly easy to identify ... and we're assuming that the guy standing to Polaris' left (our right) is Havok, yes? 

And the fellow in question, that we think is Iceman, is standing at the head of the stairs -- right? 
<<<

Could well have been the other way around. After all, Iceman and Polaris are a couple until House Arrest, not Havok and Polaris. And the guy's hair isn't blond. 

I say "could well have been", because, since I've actually read the issue for the first time in scanning it, it's pre-HoM without a doubt. Not because of that scene, but because of the next page - Nightcrawler initally thinks that the time-freeze is caused by Professor X coming back for his birthday. In the time period we're talking about post-HoM, Professor X is missing and undetectable by Cerebra (implying either that he's deceased or M-Day depowered, but that's neither here nor there), whereas pre-HoM he was simply off somewhere on a break. It's got to be pre-HoM1. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Regarding Nightcrawler's birthday... There may be no reason to place NC3 12 (6-22) on the same day as UX@ 4. Back in UX@ 4, the X-Men celebrated what Kurt believed to be his birthday -- the birthday "given" to him by his adoptive mother Margali Szardos. In the years since, Kurt has discovered the identity of his true mother (Mystique) and the circumstances of his birth, including perhaps his real birthday. I can't recall the specifics, but would this make sense? If Margali assigned Kurt's birthday to be the day he entered her life, what would be the time span between Kurt's birth and that event? 
<<<

The narration explicitly references UX@ 4 as a previous birthday as this. Just for your consideration, calendar-wise 

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Posted: 12 Feb 2006 11:06 pm    
By Hotcharokey

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And the fellow in question, that we think is Iceman, is standing at the head of the stairs -- right? 

Well in that case, my question is -- who are the three other guys on the landing? 

If the answer turns out to be "nobody important, just some friends of Kurt's" ... then why can't the same be said of the guy at the head of the stairs? Why does he have to be Iceman? 
<<<


Could the fellow at the top of the stairs be Kevin Ford, aka Wither? He is wearing gloves. Wither wore gloves to protect others from his touch. 

Could the others on the landing be members of Nightcrawler's squad of students? Each of the X-Men were assigned a group of students to train.

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Posted: 12 Feb 2006 11:49 pm    
By Col_Fury

I'm pretty sure that the three guys together at the top of the stairs are the writer, artist, and editor. Aguirre-Sacasa likes writing himself into his books, and one of them has glasses, so it's not that much of a stretch. With that in mind, could the guy with the gloves be the assistant editor or something? He's still on the stairs looking over the party, like the other 'creators'...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 13 Feb 2006 06:55 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
"Kurt's birthdate" would seem to me to be solely a calendar consideration, and not a clue the MCP should consider when determining placement. I wouldn't strain your brain trying to come up with a rationale for why this issue doesn't need to be placed on the same date as UX@ 4. 
<<<


But I am working on a calendar... If anyone can assist with a good rationalization for different birthdays for Kurt, that would be very helpful.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Feb 2006 01:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul, I like and support your calendar project, but I go through periods where I feel that you blur the distinctions between the calendar and the MCP. I think I'm entering such a phase again. 

When you say "it would be helpful" if someone gave you a rationalization for placing Kurt's birthday on two different dates, it should be noted that it would only be helpful TO YOU. You, personally -- not you, acting as a Board Member of the MCP. 

The MCP disregards most calendar evidence when considering placement, so the MCP doesn't NEED any rationalization. "Dates" have almost no meaning here. 

Hotcharokey began this thread to discuss a post-HoM X-book chronology for the MCP. Not for the calendar. I appreciate that you're not insisting that we place NC3 #12 in "late October" -- or rather, in the period that you've determined is late October -- but when you ask us to help come up with a rationalization for NOT placing it there, your status as Board Member and Moderator makes it sound like an official request. As in, if we DON'T strain our brains coming up with a rationalization, NC3 #12 WON'T get placed pre-HoM in the MCP. And that's not the case. 

For those newer posters who may not understand that you're wearing two hats, and generally discussing both projects at once -- it might be helpful if you could make more effort to separate out the two. 

The MCP *doesn't* have to consider that Kurt's birthday is in "late October". The MCP doesn't have to consider the snow in UX #469. We don't even have to consider any references to "weeks" or "months" passing if we don't want to. 

And I find that, in general, when YOU start considering clues like that, and discussing them in the middle of threads about MCP chronology, publicly using them to come to placement conclusions -- given your status around here, it makes everyone else feel that THEY have to consider those clues as well. 

They don't. And I want to make sure everyone knows that. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Feb 2006 07:19 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The MCP disregards most calendar evidence when considering placement, so the MCP doesn't NEED any rationalization. "Dates" have almost no meaning here.  
<<<

I could've sworn Russ said at one point that he does use the Calender as an instrument for helping determine placement for the MCP listings. So I don't know if the MCP disregards "most" calender evidence...though it certainly disregards "some" evidence. Maybe you meant most "temporal" evidence? I mean, that's what we're always poking at Paul about: those pesky temporal references... 


Quote: 
>>>
but when you ask us to help come up with a rationalization for NOT placing it there, your status as Board Member and Moderator makes it sound like an official request. 
<<<

Well, it IS an official request...for the Calender. Just like Paul B.'s requests for analysis over on the Issue Analysis forum are "official requests" in his attempt to complete the Calender. The fact that those same analysis's help in determining placement for the MCP is an extra bonus. The Calender is housed at the MCP, so I feel discussion for it is just as "official" as discussion for the MCP. 

But your concern seems to be that Calender discussion will overtake MCP discussion. Perhaps you are right, Jeph, in that it would help if we did a better job of distinguishing between what discussion is meant for the Calender and what is meant for the MCP listings itself, (at least, if only to clarify for non-board members what we take into consideration for placement). But I think discussion for both are warranted in this thread. 

Having said all that, I've got nothing in regards to how to reconcile the conflicting birthday references for Nightcrawler...maybe it's all Wanda's fault again? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 13 Feb 2006 11:40 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Regarding Nightcrawler's birthday... There may be no reason to place NC3 12 (6-22) on the same day as UX@ 4. Back in UX@ 4, the X-Men celebrated what Kurt believed to be his birthday -- the birthday "given" to him by his adoptive mother Margali Szardos. In the years since, Kurt has discovered the identity of his true mother (Mystique) and the circumstances of his birth, including perhaps his real birthday. I can't recall the specifics, but would this make sense? If Margali assigned Kurt's birthday to be the day he entered her life, what would be the time span between Kurt's birth and that event? 
<<<

Here's the narration from NC3 12: 

Kurt Wagner wrote: 
>>>
I'm thinking back to one of my birthdays past. The one I spent trapped in an inferno, fighting for my soul. Not. Fun.  
<<<

The bold text isn't mine, it's in the book. 

This could be read to support Paul's Calendar theory. Yeah, 'birthdays past' could just mean a previous birthday, but 'birthdays past' could mean his old 'birthdate,' in the past when he thought it was something else.(you know, the one Margali gave him) Maybe Scott thought he really was surprising Kurt by throwing a party on his 'actual' birthday... 

As for how far apart the two dates could be, going from X-Men Unlimited vol1 4: 
Mystique gave birth to Kurt, and that night dropped him over a waterfall. He was found by some townspeople, but it doesn't say how long the townspeople had him before Margali took custody of him. I'm not sure if that little bit was ever addressed.(it should be mentioned that the townsperon who retrieved Kurt in Unlimited 4 was a male, and not Margali) It could be a few days, a few weeks, or even a month or two. 

A bit of retconning in Uncanny 432 reveals that Azazel rescued Kurt from the waterfall and gave him to Margali. Again, it doesn't mention how long it took him to do that. 

So to me, it's very likely that Kurt has 'two' birthdays. His 'real' birthday could be in say, September, and his 'foster' birthday could be in say, October. 

Hope that helps.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 14 Feb 2006 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 14 Feb 2006 12:42 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I could've sworn Russ said at one point that he does use the Calender as an instrument for helping determine placement for the MCP listings. So I don't know if the MCP disregards "most" calender evidence...though it certainly disregards "some" evidence. Maybe you meant most "temporal" evidence? 
<<<

Yes, quite right. I should have made the distinction clearer between "calendar" and "Calendar". Although Russ has looked to Paul's Calendar for placement advice, we disregard most calendar-related references (aka temporal references) from the comics. 


Quote: 
>>>
The Calender is housed at the MCP, so I feel discussion for it is just as "official" as discussion for the MCP. But your concern seems to be that Calender discussion will overtake MCP discussion. 
<<<

Again, you're on the right track. The Calendar certainly has a place here, and although I'm not concerned that Calendar discussion will "overtake" MCP discussion per se, I'm concerned that the continual mingling of the two in thread after thread will lead to confusion. 

I feel that it's important to note to the board at large that some of the stuff Paul B. considers vital evidence, stuff he relies on to determine placement on HIS project, just doesn't matter to the MCP. And those board members that are trying to contribute ideas for MCP placements for various books -- they need to know that, unless they want to help out the Calendar as well, they don't NEED to strain themselves trying to reconcile or rationalize the temporal clues Paul brings up. 

Again -- I like Paul's Calendar. I have nothing against his project as a concept. I just feel like Paul phrases many of his posts here in such a way that the casual poster would get the impression that the MCP was the Calendar. And although both projects are equally valid, I think it's very important to remind everyone here -- they're separate. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2006 07:18 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I feel that it's important to note to the board at large that some of the stuff Paul B. considers vital evidence, stuff he relies on to determine placement on HIS project, just doesn't matter to the MCP.  
<<<

Is that really so? You know, I'm on the Board of Directors here and apparently I haven't been privvy to the rules governing evidence here at the MCP, as you have, Jeph. Is that something you can post? 

Like most folks here, I rely heavily on in-story plot and character evidence to determine placement, but I also consider temporal evidence as a supplement, just like George Olshevsky did. I've been assuming that since the MCP was inspired by Olshevsky and actually does use his chronologies (even when he violated the sanctity of publication order to accommodate temporal references), that we would try to follow his methodologies for the sake of consistency if nothing else. Granted, what I do is an interpretation of Olshevsky's methodologies (I've never met him), but I do know that outright disregard for temporal references as clues does not follow the Olshevsky model. 

The calendar is a product that puts together a wide range of evidence (including temporal) and a whole boatload of titles (to get a big picture) so that maybe new insights on placement may be gleaned. But it's really not intended to be a final product in and of itself -- it's a tool for helping determine character chronologies in the MCP. Consider it a compilation of issue analyses. That's the intention anyway. Its effectiveness in doing that is another issue.  

Regarding the rationalization of Nightcrawler's birthday...I'm placing NC3 12 before HOM and am disregarding the October reference from UX@ 4, based on evidence that's stronger than temporal references. Olshevsky used to provide explanations about inconsistencies like this and I was merely seeking to do the same. Granted, you won't find such an explanation in the character chronologies of the MCP -- I was asking this for the sake of the calendar, but just so that folks who are reviewing it are aware of the weight of evidence used for placement.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2006 12:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
You know, I'm on the Board of Directors here and apparently I haven't been privvy to the rules governing evidence here at the MCP, as you have, Jeph. Is that something you can post? 
<<<

Please don't get offended, Paul. And although you know as well as I do that Russ is loathe to put any hard-and-fast rules in writing, he's made many statements on these boards that he disregards conflicting temporal clues without a second thought. The most famous one that comes to mind is his statement that, as far as he's concerned, the Marvel Universe has four Christmases every year and a Presidential election every November... 

I hear your defense of the Calendar -- but do you take my point that maybe you're comingling it with the MCP too much? 

Remember back when you spent a good portion of a thread trying to place the 2004 Marvel Holiday Special on dates that you'd previously determined to be Christmases, but it wouldn't work because of various Avengers' status quos, so you wanted to interpret the Avengers' appearances as part of Jonah's dream? And I had to track down Tom DeFalco at a convention and get him to confirm that they weren't a dream, and you finally conceded and placed the story on a date you'd previously determined to be May -- but you had to pretend that the holiday they were celebrating was really Arbor Day, or somesuch? 

None of that would have been necessary if you could just see past the fact that the story took place on "Christmas". I hear you say that you use characters' status quos as primary placement, THEN temporal references as backup -- but sometimes I don't see that happening in practice. And that's when and why I speak up. 

Russ, if I've misremembered or misinterpreted your past remarks, please feel free to correct me. And again, Paul, don't take personal offense -- like you, I have a vision of how the MCP should operate, and like you I'm trying to keep it from being diluted. You fight my "publication order" preferences as much as I fight your Calendar preferences. I've taken your points under consideration; I hope you've taken mine. 

I suspect the entire point of a Board of Directors is to provide multiple points of view. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2006 09:39 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
XM: The 198 #1: Mutants start arriving at the school and tents go up to hold them all. 

UXM #466 - UXM #468, pp. 1-19: Kurt, Betsy, and Rachel return from England. The Sentinels are guarding the mansion. The tent city from X-Men: The 198 #1" is seen on page 6. The ShiAr massacre the Greys 
<<< 


I read these scenes a little differently. It looks to me like X:198 1 doesn't show mutants "starting" to arrive and tents "going up" -- it looks like this has already happened and that opens the possibility of that panel on page 6 of UX 466 (also showing tents up) occurring before the X:198 1 scene. 

Here's why I'd place UX 466 (1-18) before X:198 1 (15p8-23): 

In UX 466 (1-18), Val Cooper meets with Scott and Emma, the Institute's leaders. The dialog reads like it's the first time since the X-Men's initial confrontation with Val and the O*N*E Sentinels in X 178 that Val has sat down with the Institute's leadership. It seems that Val's introducing herself in her new role and she introduces Reyes, the military leader of the Sentinel Squad. Among the topics under discussion is speculation about what could have caused M-Day and what O*N*E is doing at the Institute, a discussion that was interrupted in X 178 by the attack of the Sapien League. Furthermore, Emma discovers in UX 466 (1-18) that Val's thoughts are closed to her -- another clue that this may be the first chance Val has sat down with the X-Men to discuss things. Reyes tells Scott and Val that Sentinels will accompany X-Men who leave the premises of the Institute. 

In X:198 1 (15p8-23), Mr. M arrives at the Institute. 

In X:198 2 (which I have following right after issue #1), Val meets again with the X-Men. This time, in addition to Scott and Emma, the meeting includes Hank, Kitty, and Bishop. The dialog here seems to make more sense if it occurs after the one involving just Scott and Emma in UX 466. They discuss the arrival of Mr. M, and go into detail about the Institute as a "relocation center." It's probably this meeting that gives Bishop the lowdown on the situation, which he is able to report later to Ororo in UX 469 (1-13). 

So I have Val's first post M-Day encounters with Scott and Emma in this order: 
X 178 
UX 466 (1-18) 
X:198 2 

Hey, no temporal references in the argument. The inconsistencies of green grass and trees in some issues weaving in and out of issues featuring snow tells me those references are unreliable for placement. Something's topical (probably the snow).
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2006 09:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Please don't get offended, Paul.  
<<<

Jeph, to be honest, I think it's your frequent use of upper case letters for the word "you" that's a problem. You may be using it for emphasis, but to me it reads like a big poking finger. In Internet etiquette, that's provoking.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Feb 2006 01:25 pm    
By jephyork
Director

This comment isn't meant to provoke you further, Paul, but -- how would you prefer that I emphasize certain words? Going all-caps for a word is quicker than typing the BBcode for bold or italics, but in my mind they all mean the same thing: I'm saying that word a little louder than all the other words in that sentence. That's the word I want people noticing. 

I'm not trying to "provoke" you -- by which I assume you mean, attack you or piss you off. I've said several times in this thread that I have respect for both you and your Calendar project, and I've made a point of saying that specifically so you WON'T feel like I'm attacking you. 

(See, there I go all-capping the word "won't". It worked, didn't it? That's the word you emphasized in your head when reading that sentence.) 

In a previous post, I said that needing a rationale for moving Nightcrawler's birthday is a Calendar concern, not an MCP concern. You responded with "but I am working on a calendar." To my mind, you were emphasizing the wrong word, so I emphasized it for you: yes, you are working on a calendar. Not to piss you off, but to underline a distinction I thought might be missed by less experienced posters: the MCP is not the Calendar. 


Was it the caps that provoked you, or just the fact that I put emphasis on the word "you"? Because if so, I'm sorry but that WAS my intent -- to emphasize the distinction between your Calendar project and the MCP. 


Can you re-read my posts above in the spirit they were intended? Not to provoke you, or to criticize the concept of the Calendar, but to express my observation that, since both projects use different forms of evidence in different degrees to divine placements, discussion of the two is easily confused. And to request that you make that distinction more obvious when you post. 


As I said above -- I've taken your points, and your dislike of my "publication order" concept, to heart. I've learned from your criticism, and have modified my argument into "using publication order as a way to divine editorial intent". For example, since Gambit v4 #2 makes an Avengers reference, and was written before the Avengers Disassembled, the reference is very probably to the old Avengers, not the New Avengers. Or, even though a panel shows Rogue apparently using fire, since it was written and drawn back when Rogue v3 #3 was being written and drawn, it very likely is NOT a reference to Sunfire's powers, that she permanently picks up in Rogue v3 #7-12. If these implied references need to be re-interpreted to mean the New Avengers, or Sunfire's powers, in the face of more overwhelming placement evidence, so be it. But if there ISN'T more powerful evidence, these references should be allowed to stand, to tie the books to the time periods and status quos the writer was meaning to make reference to when he wrote them. 

So -- I've taken your criticisms of my placement methods to heart, and have hopefully emerged with stronger placement methods. If I'm trying to "provoke" you into doing anything, it's to do the same. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Feb 2006 06:02 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm going to step into this little debate again, and Paul, if you don't want me interjecting on your behalf, then kindly tell me to butt out, and you have my apologies. Likewise, Jeph, if you think I'm out of line, I guess let me know...but here's how I see it: 

Quote: 
>>>
Because if so, I'm sorry but that WAS my intent -- to emphasize the distinction between your Calendar project and the MCP. 
<<<

I think that sentence sums up perfectly the problem in your posts, Jeph. Why is it "your" (as in "Paul's") Calender project, and it's "The" MCP?!? Why is it not "Russ's" MCP? Or better yet, "The" Calender project? With the way you've been phrasing it in all of your recent posts, it basically sounds like you're marginalizing the Calender project. You've stated that you're a fan of both, (and I don't doubt you) but you do come across as rather dismissive of the Calender. 

Take another quote of yours, which I noticed the other day over in the thread for your analysis of Gambit #1-6: 


Quote: 
>>>
But, you know, it's your calendar, go with what you want. 
<<<


Now I've seen you arguing tooth and nail over chronology placement in other threads. You argued for 4 straight pages over a placement for Mojo one time, I believe. Yet when it comes to the Calender, you seem ready to dismiss it, saying, "Eh, it's just Paul's project, no big deal." I suppose at the end of the day, Paul does get the final call on what goes where on the Calender. But I like to think the rest of us have a pretty good say in placement. 

Your mentioning of the 2004 Marvel Holiday Special was a good example of that. I sided with the rest of you guys in that debate, I believe, and yes, I think Paul did have to (sadly) have a Christmas story occur in May. 

At the end of the day, Paul does make the final decisions on placement for the Calender, but it's also at the end of the day Russ that makes the final decisions on MCP placement...admitedly, Russ makes a change going by how us message board members judge a character's placement, (usually after a long, drawn out debate session), so the power lies in our hands...so just like we have to justify changes to Russ, we have to justify changes to Paul. 

I for one have contributed plenty of hours to the calender with my reviews, so I like to think of the Calender as being "my Calender" as well. I also like to think of the MCP as "mine" as well, since I've been coming to the MCP message since 1998, (though I didn't really start to contribute on the boards till 2001). I think that, except for perhaps Paul O., I've been contributing analysis for the Calender longer than anyone else here, (except of course for Paul B. himself). So as you can imagine, I have a pretty high regard for the Calender, (since I've invested so much time in it). 

The Calender has been going strong since 2001, (since we all sat down and tried to make sense of the Kang War), and it's been housed here at the MCP for some time. If Russ believes the Calender is not serving it's true purpose, then I'm sure he'll let us know, (he is the one who's been kind enough to house the Calender). But I consider both of them equally important.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Feb 2006 07:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Golly gee whiz, it sure seems like folks have some awfully big feet, for all these toes to get stepped on. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Because if so, I'm sorry but that WAS my intent -- to emphasize the distinction between your Calendar project and the MCP. 
<<<

I think that sentence sums up perfectly the problem in your posts, Jeph. Why is it "your" (as in "Paul's") Calender project, and it's "The" MCP?!? Why is it not "Russ's" MCP? Or better yet, "The" Calender project? With the way you've been phrasing it in all of your recent posts, it basically sounds like you're marginalizing the Calender project. You've stated that you're a fan of both, (and I don't doubt you) but you do come across as rather dismissive of the Calender. 
<<<

The distinction that I would make, if I were referring to "the MCP" and "Paul's Calendar", is that I (along with Jeph, and you, and Paul) am a Director for the MCP. To my knowledge (and I don't mean to be facetious here), Jeph's not a Director for the Calendar. I suppose some people could look at a reference to "Paul's Calendar" as somehow marginalizing the Calendar, but frankly, I don't. I've always interpreted it as a recognition that Paul started the thing, he's managed it, he's written it, yes, with the help of a couple of dozen contributors, both major and minor, but it's his baby. 

Heck, many people outside of the Project still refer to us as "Russ Chappell's Marvel Chronology Project," and yet, I've never felt that was an effort to ghettoize the Project. 




Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Take another quote of yours, which I noticed the other day over in the thread for your analysis of Gambit #1-6: 

Quote: 
>>>
But, you know, it's your calendar, go with what you want. 
<<< 


Now I've seen you arguing tooth and nail over chronology placement in other threads. You argued for 4 straight pages over a placement for Mojo one time, I believe. Yet when it comes to the Calender, you seem ready to dismiss it, saying, "Eh, it's just Paul's project, no big deal." I suppose at the end of the day, Paul does get the final call on what goes where on the Calender. But I like to think the rest of us have a pretty good say in placement. 
<<<

But this happens all the time. I have to wonder if you didn't slip the word "just" into Jeph's quote, up there, although you seem to be sharing how you interpreted what he's saying, and that's fair enough. But what I gather out of that quote (minus the "just"), is that it's not important enough to Jeph to spend time arguing about placement on the Calendar. And yes, he spent many, MANY, weeks arguing over Mojo's placement in the Project, presumably because that was important to him. But he's allowed to decide what's important to him. 

But getting back to my point that it happens to all of us. Tom Brevoort said basically the exact same thing, about us, a couple of years ago. Tom posted on the old message board, during our debate on the Kang War, telling us their editorial intentions for placement. Some of us, including a couple of Directors, argued passionately for a different placement. Tom concluded his part in the discussion with a virtual shrug, when he said, "You guys can put it wherever you want. It's your Project. It's not like we're bound by any of this." And no one here got all up in arms over Tom's comment. Probably because he was making a good point. 



Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
The Calender has been going strong since 2001, (since we all sat down and tried to make sense of the Kang War), and it's been housed here at the MCP for some time. If Russ believes the Calender is not serving it's true purpose, then I'm sure he'll let us know, (he is the one who's been kind enough to house the Calender). But I consider both of them equally important. 
<<<

I wouldn't base a decision to host the Calendar on a personal judgement of whether it's serving its true purpose. I believe the Calendar is a monumental accomplishment, and it deserves to be published. I think it provides much needed recognition for the labor that Paul has expended on it, and I think our visitors get a blast out of it, so by hosting the Calendar, I can perform two good deeds. 

I would like to see the MCP eventually graduate to not just a listing of appearances in chronological order, but a clearinghouse for discussions and essays of all sorts dealing with the science, art and philosophy of Marvel Chronology, and the Calendar is the first example of that, which Paul has graciously allowed us to host. 


watching: buffy

Last edited by Administrator on 16 Feb 2006 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 15 Feb 2006 08:36 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
XM: The 198 #1: Mutants start arriving at the school and tents go up to hold them all. 


UXM #466 - UXM #468, pp. 1-19: Kurt, Betsy, and Rachel return from England. The Sentinels are guarding the mansion. The tent city from X-Men: The 198 #1" is seen on page 6. The ShiAr massacre the Greys 
<<<

I read these scenes a little differently. It looks to me like X:198 1 doesn't show mutants "starting" to arrive and tents "going up" -- it looks like this has already happened and that opens the possibility of that panel on page 6 of UX 466 (also showing tents up) occurring before the X:198 1 scene. 
<<<


My mistake. The tents were already up, and some mutants were already living in the tents. When I read the scenes, I must have filled in the blanks the way that I wanted them to be filled in. Well, how can I prove my point if I am only limited to the facts?  I must be more careful how I phrase things. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Here's why I'd place UX 466 (1-18) before X:198 1 (15p8-23): 

In UX 466 (1-18), Val Cooper meets with Scott and Emma, the Institute's leaders. The dialog reads like it's the first time since the X-Men's initial confrontation with Val and the O*N*E Sentinels in X 178 that Val has sat down with the Institute's leadership. It seems that Val's introducing herself in her new role and she introduces Reyes, the military leader of the Sentinel Squad. Among the topics under discussion is speculation about what could have caused M-Day and what O*N*E is doing at the Institute, a discussion that was interrupted in X 178 by the attack of the Sapien League. Furthermore, Emma discovers in UX 466 (1-18) that Val's thoughts are closed to her -- another clue that this may be the first chance Val has sat down with the X-Men to discuss things. Reyes tells Scott and Val that Sentinels will accompany X-Men who leave the premises of the Institute. 

In X:198 1 (15p8-23), Mr. M arrives at the Institute. 

In X:198 2 (which I have following right after issue #1), Val meets again with the X-Men. This time, in addition to Scott and Emma, the meeting includes Hank, Kitty, and Bishop. The dialog here seems to make more sense if it occurs after the one involving just Scott and Emma in UX 466. They discuss the arrival of Mr. M, and go into detail about the Institute as a "relocation center." It's probably this meeting that gives Bishop the lowdown on the situation, which he is able to report later to Ororo in UX 469 (1-13). 

So I have Val's first post M-Day encounters with Scott and Emma in this order: 
X 178 
UX 466 (1-18) 
X:198 2. 
<<<


I put UXM #466 after XM:198 #1 because it seems to me as though the bald man in the last panel of page 6 is Mr. M (without his hat). I don't know who else it could be, but, then again, I've always had a hard time understanding Bachelo's art. His art work has always been too busy for my tastes. (I eagerly anticipate the day when a new artist takes over the title.) 

I have XM: 198 #2 occurring between pages 19 and page 20 of UXM #468. Kitty leaves (for Japan perhaps) on page 20. So, the order of Val's appearances agrees with your order. 

Markarokey

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Posted: 16 Feb 2006 12:59 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I've always interpreted it as a recognition that Paul started the thing, he's managed it, he's written it, yes, with the help of a couple of dozen contributors, both major and minor, but it's his baby. 
<<<

That's how I would normally interpret it as well, but Jeph's gone out of his way to emphasise that it is indeed Paul's Calender, and with the manner in which he phrased it, it sounded like he was trying to discourage discussion of the Calender. That's certainly how I read this quote by Jeph: 


Quote: 
>>>
I feel that it's important to note to the board at large that some of the stuff Paul B. considers vital evidence, stuff he relies on to determine placement on HIS project, just doesn't matter to the MCP. And those board members that are trying to contribute ideas for MCP placements for various books -- they need to know that, unless they want to help out the Calendar as well, they don't NEED to strain themselves trying to reconcile or rationalize the temporal clues Paul brings up.  
<<<

Notice the emphasis on "unless they want to help out the Calender as well". Well, what if the Calender is first and foremost in what a board member is posting about, and the MCP listings comes secondary to that? Shouldn't a board member be allowed to choose to do that as well? 


Quote: 
>>>
But this happens all the time. I have to wonder if you didn't slip the word "just" into Jeph's quote, up there, although you seem to be sharing how you interpreted what he's saying, and that's fair enough.  
<<<

Yes, that's how I interpretted Jeph's statements, and if I was interpreting them wrong, then my apologies to Jeph. Perhaps throwing in the word "just" was a bit much, but I wanted to get my point across about how Jeph's comments were coming across, (at least to me). 


Quote: 
>>>
And yes, he spent many, MANY, weeks arguing over Mojo's placement in the Project, presumably because that was important to him. But he's allowed to decide what's important to him.  
<<<

That's true, and fair enough. It's just that I've seen Jeph in action over things he feels passionately about, and that quote in the Gambit thread kinda raised my eyebrows. And of course, that's not quite what happened, since Jeph went on a bit further in that same post to explain his rationality. But having read that quote in conjunction with the quotes Jeph's giving in this thread, I was like, "Oh, I see, Jeph's not wanting to argue the point over Gambit because it's 'Paul's Calender'..." And I'm just stating right now: I don't want us to reach a point where we don't bother arguing Calender placement simply because it's 'Paul's Calender'... 

I myself have argued placement with Paul on more than one occasion, especially in regards to Daredevil chronology, (I still think that we should get the "one year" gap as close to a true "one year" as possible, though I doubt it'll line up exactly). Jeph's post seems to encourage less debating about the Calender, (and thus, by extension, less contributing to the Calender). I want to encourage MORE debating. Debating is a good thing. 

I do agree on the point that perhaps we do need to at times make a better distinction between what is Calender talk and what is MCP talk. But I want to see both equally debated. 


Quote: 
>>>
Tom concluded his part in the discussion with a virtual shrug, when he said, "You guys can put it wherever you want. It's your Project. It's not like we're bound by any of this." 
<<<

You know, I never was satisfied with Tom's answer.  But granted, that may be just because I feel that Marvel SHOULD take into account our findings.  


Quote: 
>>>
I wouldn't base a decision to host the Calendar on a personal judgement of whether it's serving its true purpose.  
<<<

Fair enough. Thanks for clearing that up for me. 


Quote: 
>>>
I believe the Calendar is a monumental accomplishment, and it deserves to be published. I think it provides much needed recognition for the labor that Paul has expended on it, and I think our visitors get a blast out of it, so by hosting the Calendar, I can perform two good deeds. 
<<<


Well said. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 07:56 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
That's how I would normally interpret it as well, but Jeph's gone out of his way to emphasise that it is indeed Paul's Calender, and with the manner in which he phrased it, it sounded like he was trying to discourage discussion of the Calender. 
<<<

I think Jeph's point - with which I basically agree - is that discussion of Calendar issues needs to be kept distinct from MCP issues. The two projects do not adopt the same rules because the Calendar tries to make everything fit into a hypothetical calendar and adjusts appearances accordingly - which can involve stories taking place wildly out of sequence in order for seasonal references to work, for example - whereas the MCP makes no such assumptions and therefore does not need to make the same adjustments. 

Discussion of the Calendar is perfectly legitimate but I share Jeph's concern (and slight frustration) that discussion of continuity issues on this board very frequently becomes diverted by arguments that a particular placement won't work for reasons that are specific to the calendar and immaterial to the MCP. It strikes me that, on the occasions when the ground rules of the project diverge, we spend almost all our time worrying about the calendar and virtually none considering the perspective of the MCP. 

As I've said before, I have every respect for the vast amount of effort that has been put into the Calendar but, ultimately, I fundamentally disagree with the premise that the Marvel Universe CAN be analysed in such a way. I think the whole timeline is so screwy that it can only be meaningfully understood - or at least, understood in accordance with the intentions of its creators - with a hefty dose of artistic licence that I personally cannot reconcile with the rather literal and absolutist approach of the Calendar. 

For that reason, much as I admire the work put into the Calendar, I'm not desperately interested in Calendar-specific analysis and share Jeph's concern that some threads seem to proceed on the tacit assumption that the primary objective is to place a story on the Calendar. This is the MCP's message board and while discussion of the Calendar is rightly welcomed, it is surely secondary to discussion of the MCP itself.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 10:46 am    
By Jhaeman

Maybe we could simply have a new forum for calendar discussions, and try to let people in the chonology forum know that another discussion is happening on a related issue. Granted, it may take some extra work to try to extricate the threats that are relevant to each forum.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 12:20 pm
By jephyork
Director

Back, briefly, to the original point of the thread, X-chronology... 

Hotcharokey, the bald guy in UX #466 can't be Mr. M, because he's not bald. He wears that hat to hide several short tentacles coming out of his head. 

By the way, I loved this line: 

Hotcharokey wrote: 
>>>
how can I prove my point if I am only limited to the facts?  
<<<

Genius. That may just be my new signature. 

-------- 

Now, back to the derailing train that is Calendar Discussion... 

Kevin, I actually started writing something acknowledging the work other posters here put into the Calendar (and you were the main person I was thinking of, in writing that), but it honestly was too big of a tangent, so I deleted it. 

Here are some replies to your latest post... 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Jeph's post seems to encourage less debating about the Calender, (and thus, by extension, less contributing to the Calender). 
<<<

Wrong. As I've said about 60 times in this thread, I want to see some SEPARATION. So that a board member who wants to help the Calendar doesn't get into a heated debate with a board member who wants to help out the MCP -- both of them going at it with totally different assumed ground rules and totally different evidence, and neither of them realizing that the other has a different point of view. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Notice the emphasis on "unless they want to help out the Calender as well". Well, what if the Calender is first and foremost in what a board member is posting about, and the MCP listings comes secondary to that? Shouldn't a board member be allowed to choose to do that as well? 
<<<

Absolutely! All I want is for them to make clear that they ARE contributing to the Calendar. So that, even if their findings are agreed-on and adopted into the Calendar, that's NOT NECESSARILY the end of the discussion -- so that people who want to contribute to the MCP can suggest a completely different placement, which can then be agreed-on and adopted, without the Calendar people saying "but we already placed that!" 

Everyone here needs to realize that the two projects can, and frequently do, come to completely different conclusions. Everyone further needs to be kept aware of which discussion produced which result for which project. Which, again, is why I'm asking for some SEPARATION. At this point I'm not sure everyone here even realizes that there are two separate projects! 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I don't want us to reach a point where we don't bother arguing Calender placement simply because it's 'Paul's Calender'... 
<<<

Neither do I. But i WOULD like to reach a point where everyone REALIZES when they're talking about the Calendar. Right now, I don't think all the posters on the board know which project is being discussed at any given time. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I want to encourage MORE debating. Debating is a good thing. 
<<<

Agreed. But, again, let's make sure everyone IN the debate knows which project they're debating a placement for. 

---- 

I have a big problem being succinct -- I tend to ramble on and on and argue my point six times in six different ways in the same post. So for the rest of this post, I'm just going to quote snippets from other people's posts that sum up my feelings more succinctly than I ever could. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I (along with Jeph, and you, and Paul) am a Director for the MCP. To my knowledge (and I don't mean to be facetious here), Jeph's not a Director for the Calendar. 
<<<

THANK you. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I've always interpreted it as a recognition that Paul started the thing, he's managed it, he's written it, yes, with the help of a couple of dozen contributors, both major and minor, but it's his baby. 
<<<

THANK you. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I think Jeph's point - with which I basically agree - is that discussion of Calendar issues needs to be kept distinct from MCP issues. 
<<<

THANK you. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Discussion of the Calendar is perfectly legitimate but I share Jeph's concern (and slight frustration) that discussion of continuity issues on this board very frequently becomes diverted by arguments that a particular placement won't work for reasons that are specific to the calendar and immaterial to the MCP. 
<<<

THANK you. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It strikes me that, on the occasions when the ground rules of the project diverge, we spend almost all our time worrying about the calendar and virtually none considering the perspective of the MCP. 
<<<

I've noticed that too. And Kevin's concerned that I'm trying to marginalize the Calendar? I'm concerned that the Calendar is marginalizing the MCP! 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
much as I admire the work put into the Calendar, I'm not desperately interested in Calendar-specific analysis and share Jeph's concern that some threads seem to proceed on the tacit assumption that the primary objective is to place a story on the Calendar. This is the MCP's message board and while discussion of the Calendar is rightly welcomed, it is surely secondary to discussion of the MCP itself. 
<<<

I could basically quote Paul O's entire post here. he's hit the nail right on the head, and managed to phrase concerns that I couldn't even put into sentences. 

I *am* concerned that the Calendar, and its particular chronological concerns, are overshadowing the MCP's concerns. I'm concerned that as soon as Paul or Kevin or anyone else brings up a Calendar issue, everyone drops the MCP rules, adopts the Calendar rules and continues on in the same discussion. 

Again -- this is why I'm asking for some SEPARATION of the discussion. If people WANT to discuss Calendar issues, this is still the place -- but can it be done in a different thread? Or at least with the disclaimer that the poster is talking about the Calendar? 

I think I've said "separation" in big capital letters about eighty times in this post. Hopefully this will defuse anyone's concerns that I don't want us to talk about the Calendar at all. I do -- I just don't want to talk about it in the same breath as we talk about the MCP. 

It's hard to follow a thread where two people are talking about the same comic, but focusing on different evidence. It confuses people. And I think, honestly, that this confusion is doing a disservice to the MCP. 

I want clarification. I want separation. I want everyone to know what they're talking about at all times, and what the rules, assumptions and applicable evidence are for the project they're discussing. 

I think, at this point, it would be best if we all sat down and determined exactly what the Ground Rules ARE for each project... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 01:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I think, at this point, it would be best if we all sat down and determined exactly what the Ground Rules ARE for each project... 
<<<


That's what I'd really like to see. We have our debates and our different philosophies about evidence for placement, then eventually new information appears in the character chronologies of the MCP. Russ is the final arbiter of that, but it's usually an opaque process. It's hard to tell what bits of evidence finally convince Russ to place things where they are. 

Like I've said, I think I'm perhaps the most Olshevskian (?) of the MCP Board in terms of weighing evidence. I do pay attention to temporal references as he did, and will tend to give more weight to them than to the relative publication order of issues of different titles. I think Olshevsky did the same thing, judging from his work. Sometimes, too, placements based on temporal evidence will make "reading order" a little messier without necessarily violating plot and character evidence, which we all agree (I think) is strongest of all. So if a comfortable reading order is vital for the MCP -- with lengthy, gap-filled story arcs to be read intact without interruption and comics more or less falling in synch with the order in which they hit the stands (barring plot and character references to the contrary) -- then, yup, I guess I'm not quite on the same page as the MCP. 

I'd like to think that the Calendar is a tool for gathering evidence on a massive scale that will help serve the fundamental function of the MCP -- establishing character chronologies. For that purpose, the Calendar is very transparent in regard to the evidence that was weighed -- it points out rationales for placement, inconsistencies among different pieces of evidence, and yes, even evidence that contradicts the calendar placement that individual issues are assigned. You'll find a lot of "temporal" references that just couldn't work given stronger, non-temporal references or given contradictory temporal evidence. I hope the sheer number of these temporal references help demonstrate that I have no intention to wildly bend the rules of continuity for the sake of those leafy trees or full moons or "one year" references. 

But if the general calendar concept or my execution of the Calendar is counter-productive to the MCP because it not only fails to contribute to the MCP but also confuses MCP users and siphons energy away from MCP goals, then we need to separate and, yes, even ghettoize it. Russ notes that it does play a role, if nothing else as an interesting diversion that might address long-term goals of the MCP to expand into new areas of chronology work and philosophy. But those are long-term goals. 

So yes, I agree that first we need to establish the rules -- everyone assumes there's a fundamental difference in the way the MCP and the Calendar work -- that you can't expect story order in the Calendar to translate to character chronologies in the MCP -- but I'd like to know for sure whether that's true or not. I thought I've been playing within the general parameters of MCP rules by trying to think like Olshevsky, but I need Russ (not Jeph) to tell me that's not so. What are the MCP guidelines? 

If indeed the MCP and the Calendar are incompatible in Russ' estimation, then clarity and separation need to happen. That also means that people should understand that contributions they are making for the sake of the Calendar won't necessarily benefit the character chronologies on the MCP. 

I do apologize if folks feel that I've been commandeering the site for my own purposes. I've assumed that my purposes ultimately translated into MCP purposes, but it appears that, for some, this is a false assumption.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 04:57 pm    
By Jason Doty

It's completely a sad state of affairs that this argument is happening on the eve of when the new revised calender is about to be posted. 

What confuses me is why there is such a concern over how one reaches a placement and what factors into one's decision to place it there. 

Once sombody comes up with their propossed placement it is debated in this forum before it ever reaches the Chronology Project or the Calender and I don't see where discussing both hurts either as long as a concensus is reached on placement. 

Exactly where does Paul's Calender deviate placement on the project? If anything it is a valuable tool to help us look at placement compared to other titles we do not collect. If I know where another title happens in comparison to what I collect, I can reference that other title for beter placement of future issues. 

As soon as the Calender is posted we all have plenty of time to debate his suggested placement, if it does not jive with the project and it can always be revised so both are in tune with each other.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 07:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, thanks for ... not really understanding what the issue is, Jason. 

This kind of illustrates my point: Jason doesn't know the difference between the two projects, and is under the impression that both projects need to reach a single consensus on issue placement. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
What are the MCP guidelines? 
<<<

That's a damned good question. And my follow-up is "what are the Calendar guidelines?" I think this is our cue to take this to the "Boardroom"... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 08:03 pm    
By Jason Doty

Jeph! Wrote 
>>>
This kind of illustrates my point: Jason doesn't know the difference between the two projects, and is under the impression that both projects need to reach a single consensus on issue placement. 
<<<

I also asked where Paul deviated from the listings. I can't see where he is going against the Project by listing all the books on a Calender and giving rough estimates of where one story is in relation to others based on temporal references from the comics themselves. I'm sure you and others have made it very clear when it dose not jive with the Project. 

And yes I realize that they are two different projects, but I do not think they adversly affect each other. I think they compliment each other and when Paul discusses something and asks for day page breakdowns, I know he wants them for the Calender. 

If we have to except time breaks from the index that were derived in the same way Paul is creating his Calender, I don't see how they are at odds with the MCP that based the listings from the indexes.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 10:06 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm probably starting to go off on tangents myself...but since we're bringing up "official rules", and all that, I wanted to make a quick response to something Jeph said on pg. 3 of this thread: 

Quote: 
>>>
And although you know as well as I do that Russ is loathe to put any hard-and-fast rules in writing, he's made many statements on these boards that he disregards conflicting temporal clues without a second thought.  
<<<

I believe we've also seen Russ state that he does use the Calender as a tool to help in placement. And besides, the Calender isn't based solely on temporal references...So I think temporal clues, (while possibly not the foremost consideration in placement) should not be completely disregarded. 

And yes, just so all board members know, the Board of Directors will be discussing this whole "official rules" bit in more detail in private... 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Discussion of the Calendar is perfectly legitimate but I share Jeph's concern (and slight frustration) that discussion of continuity issues on this board very frequently becomes diverted by arguments that a particular placement won't work for reasons that are specific to the calendar and immaterial to the MCP. 
<<<

I really don't see it in the same way that you and Jeph do, and again, I don't always agree with Paul's placements. When I see Paul B. bringing up a topical reference he wants discussed, I see just another poster bringing his observations to the table, just like anybody else. And just like anybody else, I sometimes dismiss his theory's on placement, and other times I mull it over and say, "You're on to something there!" 

I really don't see Calender discussion as harmful to the MCP. Jeph and Paul O. seem to have a fear that MCP talk is being sidelined, but I think perhaps Paul B. is just more vocal in his ideas for placement. For instance, Paul B. makes coordinated attempts at getting analysis for books he doesn't collect. I honestly don't mean this to sound harsh, but maybe if you guys were more vocal in advocating for what you believe, (and not just in rebutting Paul's advocacy for temporal references), then maybe the shoe would be on the other foot? I remember when Jeph used to post his own big posts, featuring the order of the X-books, (not a calender, by any means, but a chronological placement for sure)...maybe we need to see more of that, (and not neccesarily by Jeph, but by anyone who's more interested in basic MCP chronology, as opposed to Calender chronology)? 

Let me put it another way: Paul's simply making a concentrated effort to rally board members to help with the Calender. Perhaps there needs to be more effort by those who want to focus on just the MCP? Which I guess ties into what Jeph's saying when he's calling for a clearer seperation between the two types of discussions. While I do agree that perhaps a better job needs to be done of distinguishing the difference between the two, I don't see discussion of one as detrimental to the other. 

Can someone give an example of where Calender placement has overrode MCP placement discussion? And don't use this thread, because it's kind of turned into this...mess... 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
You'll find a lot of "temporal" references that just couldn't work given stronger, non-temporal references or given contradictory temporal evidence. I hope the sheer number of these temporal references help demonstrate that I have no intention to wildly bend the rules of continuity for the sake of those leafy trees or full moons or "one year" references. 
<<< 


That's how I see it: you're willing to bend when you absolutely have to bend. Though I don't agree with every placement decision you make, Paul, I think you're pretty fair overall. 


Quote: 
>>>
But if the general calendar concept or my execution of the Calendar is counter-productive to the MCP because it not only fails to contribute to the MCP but also confuses MCP users and siphons energy away from MCP goals, then we need to separate and, yes, even ghettoize it. 
<<<

I honestly don't see it confusing MCP users...though if that is the case, then now is the time to speak up. Has anyone out there, (outside of the Board of Directors) been confused over any differences between the MCP and the Calender?  


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
It's completely a sad state of affairs that this argument is happening on the eve of when the new revised calender is about to be posted.  
<<<

To all the board members: Don't worry...this actually isn't the first time we've had this debate.  It's actually a good thing, I believe, that the Board of Directors doesn't see everything eye to eye. A bit of heated debate every once in a while can help build a stronger MCP, (and Calender). 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 10:34 pm   
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Has anyone out there, (outside of the Board of Directors) been confused over any differences between the MCP and the Calender? 
<<<

I haven't been confused. Yeah, they're very similar to each other, but I understand that they are two different things. 

For example, I've done a bunch of analyes for various books, whether they were asked for the Calendar or if they were Gap books, or whatever. I try to include as many different references as I can, be it temporal, status quo, publishing order, costumes, in-story, etc. I include all of that so everyone can(hopefully) see how I came to the conclusions I made. 

Recently, I analysed Deathlok vol3 and included how much time passed between the issues, mainly to point out why I placed that series between the relevant Captain America and Hulk comics that Col. Fury had appeared in at that time. But the end conclusion included various characters' status quos, when the books were published, recent in-story references in the X-Books that launched the M-Tech line, etc. 

You could say that my Gap analyses look similar to my Calendar analyses, but that's just the way I analyse. 

But yes, I understand that the Calendar and the MCP are two different animals. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Don't worry...this actually isn't the first time we've had this debate.   
<<<

I figured it wasn't, but no worries anyway.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 11:54 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Mommy and Daddy still love each other. They just need to live apart from now on. And date other people. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
[Russ has] made many statements on these boards that he disregards conflicting temporal clues without a second thought. 
<<<

I believe we've also seen Russ state that he does use the Calender as a tool to help in placement. And besides, the Calender isn't based solely on temporal references...So I think temporal clues, (while possibly not the foremost consideration in placement) should not be completely disregarded. 
<<<

Agreed. I actually said that Russ disregards "conflicting" temporal clues without a second thought. I meant to contrast that to Paul's method of agonizing over conflicting temporal clues, and occasionally going to extreme lengths to make both work. 


Quote: 
>>>
I remember when Jeph used to post his own big posts, featuring the order of the X-books, (not a calender, by any means, but a chronological placement for sure)...maybe we need to see more of that 
<<<

I would LOVE to do that again. Unfortunately, the thing that changed between then and now is, I got a full-time job. I used to stay up until 5am flipping through books, pulling my collection apart looking for references and writing like a crazy man. Now, while I still have everything vaguely organized in my head, I can't seem to find the time to collate, organize and justify it on paper. (I've actually been writing my recent issue analyses at work during lunch break ... that's why they've been taking so long.) 

I have *so many* projects that I've been "in the middle of" for years ... this is one of them. And although I'd dearly love to do it again, be That Guy that posts the crazy-big X-maps ... realistically, I don't know how soon that'll happen. So yeah, Kevin, maybe it IS someone else's turn at bat. 

Or maybe I need to quit my job. Anyone want to pay me to produce X-maps? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 06:55 am    
By Dhall

My suggestion is to just create a new area on the board for calander discussion and debate: Marvel Universe, Ultimate U..., Issue Analysis, Calander Project. Then the projects couls be kept separate.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 07:34 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Or maybe I need to quit my job. Anyone want to pay me to produce X-maps? 
<<<

Hey, I'd be happy to quit my job to do this full-time! Say, Russ, don't most Board of Directors get paid pretty big bucks? 


			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 08:59 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You wouldn't like the retirement package. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 10:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
My suggestion is to just create a new area on the board for calander discussion and debate: Marvel Universe, Ultimate U..., Issue Analysis, Calander Project. Then the projects couls be kept separate. 
<<<

Wouldn't that create a lot of needless duplication, though?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 11:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

I don't think he was suggesting creating four new forums, all for the Calendar. I think the list you're quoting was how he envisioned a new full list of forums ... the existing five, down to Issue Analysis, then a new one at the bottom for Calendar Project. 

I can't say that I don't see the appeal of a separate forum for talk of All Things Calendar, My God, unburdened by worries that my suggestions would alter the MCP, I might even be able to join in! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 07:49 pm    
By Starman

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I honestly don't see it confusing MCP users...though if that is the case, then now is the time to speak up. Has anyone out there, (outside of the Board of Directors) been confused over any differences between the MCP and the Calender?  
<<<

I know there are differences in between the MCP and the Calender. My concern isn't really about that, but of that it's not always entirely obvious from the beginning of the messages to which of the projects the message text is refering to. It would be nice with a small mark indicating when it's about the calender or the MCP, as otherwise it is a little guesswork required sometimes. I'm aware that the projects often are in line with eachother, but that is not always the case, which makes it even more important to be able to tell them apart quickly, as to avoid mix-ups.
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 10:28 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I meant to contrast that to Paul's method of agonizing over conflicting temporal clues, and occasionally going to extreme lengths to make both work.  
<<<

When the calendar is updated, please look for places in which "extreme lengths" are made to reconcile conflicting temporal clues. Again, I don't think you'll find untenable, reality-warping, chronology-busting shenanigans there. And if you do, it might just be...unintentional. 


Mommy and Daddy are now discussing methodologies and the notion of the MCP being a definitive source, based on consensus reached by weighing and prioritizing a variety of evidence. The character chronologies and the Calendar are different ways of presenting chronological information, but should they really have different conclusions...or should they be truly compatible? Is letting differences stand a good thing ('cause we value our individualism) or a bad thing ('cause there's no one definitive source)?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2006 11:31 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

My personal opinion is that I really don't want to see the Calendar shunted off into some ghetto. It's as valid a tool for determining chronology as any other, and I believe that temporal clues are a useful, though occasionaly useless, source for determining chronology. And hey, I like getting all my chronology discussion in the one place!
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Feb 2006 12:06 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Wouldn't that create a lot of needless duplication, though? 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
I don't think he was suggesting creating four new forums, all for the Calendar. I think the list you're quoting was how he envisioned a new full list of forums ... the existing five, down to Issue Analysis, then a new one at the bottom for Calendar Project.  
<<<

Isn't that still needless duplication though? 

I can foresee now two threads stating the exact same thing in two different forums, (one for the MCP the other for the Calender)...For instance, I can picture a discusion thread for, say, the latest issue of New Avengers in a Calender forum and in an MCP forum, both reaching the exact conclusions... 

It's only when there's an occasional hiccup in temporal references that there is a disagreement between you and Paul...isn't it better to keep things in the same forum, and just have Paul speak up with his ideas on placement, and you counter with your own ideas on placement? 


Quote: 
>>>
When the calendar is updated, please look for places in which "extreme lengths" are made to reconcile conflicting temporal clues. Again, I don't think you'll find untenable, reality-warping, chronology-busting shenanigans there. And if you do, it might just be...unintentional.  
<<<

I really do think Paul is on to something there...maybe it's just been so long since we've seen a Calender update, (I blame Bendis  ) that we need to see the finished product, and judge it's current placements on a case by case basis...I think you'll find that though Paul talks in these threads a good deal about reconciling temporal references, it'll still overall match up with MCP guidelines, (and yes, I know we're debating said guidelines, but still...)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Feb 2006 06:33 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Jhaeman wrote: 
>>>
Maybe we could simply have a new forum for calendar discussions, and try to let people in the chonology forum know that another discussion is happening on a related issue. Granted, it may take some extra work to try to extricate the threats that are relevant to each forum. 
<<<

I don't really have much use for or belief in a Marvel Universe calendar, but I don't think calendar discussion should be marginalized to a side discussion board. I'm willing to conceed that temporal cues do have a place in reconciling story order. However, I think that role is a very small one. Calendar discussion can help the MCP and vice-versa, so restricting calendar discussion to the calendar forums and MCP discussion to MCP forums would lead to duplication of effort and things would get missed in the discussions.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Feb 2006 04:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I wouldn't call it a "side" forum, any more than the Issue Analysis forum is a "side forum". The major players on this message board are equally active on both forums, and I believe the Directors make sure to read every single post in every single thread on every single forum. (I know I do, at any rate.) 

"Chat" might be considered a side forum, sure. "Calendar Discussion" would be, at worst, "another forum". 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
isn't it better to keep things in the same forum, and just have Paul speak up with his ideas on placement, and you counter with your own ideas on placement? 
<<<

Well, the problem with that is that it implies that there's only one right answer. 

If you're worried about needless duplication, perhaps when a thread starts to get overly Calendarized, we can split it, with a link in the new thread in the Calendar Forum, back to the original thread. Then the Calendar folk can go on to determine a placement for the issue in question based on the fact that it's hot outside, and the MCP board can determine a placement based on other clues. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Feb 2006 05:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
When the calendar is updated, please look for places in which "extreme lengths" are made to reconcile conflicting temporal clues. Again, I don't think you'll find untenable, reality-warping, chronology-busting shenanigans there. And if you do, it might just be...unintentional. 
<<<

I'm pretty sure I said "occasionally". And an example of an "extreme length", to me, would be creating a large gap in, let's say a Daredevil story arc, because the first issue of the arc occurs in "June" and the last issue occurs in "December". Rather than ignoring the dates as topical, you create a gap in a likely spot in the story, stretch it out and pin it across six months. "It doesn't HURT anything to stretch it out", you argue -- because there's no evidence that it took place all in one week. Okay, fine. 

Then, a few months later, you try to insert seven other Daredevil appearances into the gap you created, because now -- according to you, Daredevil didn't do anything for three monthsthere, and it's a good place to put them. 

Well, if we ignored the month references, we wouldn't have CREATED that gap in the first place, and we'd be looking for places like before or after the arc for those seven other appearances. 

Is your solution "untenable"? Does it "warp reality"? No. But is it awkward? I think so. 

Moreover, is it NECESSARY to interrupt the arc? No -- the ONLY reason, in this hypothetical scenario, is because you've decided that the month references should be taken literally. 

In short, I find that the Calendar method leads to more than a few placements that I consider unnecessarily awkward. 


In off-board conversation, Russ has pointed out your placement of CA3 #50's main story in-between CA3 #39-40, on the basis that it's a Christmas story, and you'd previously decided that CA3 #39-40 occured in December. 

That's a pretty good example of an "unnecessarily awkward" placement -- there are NO other clues, in CA3 #50 or anywhere else, to indicate that it takes place anywhere other than between CA3 #49 and #50/2. Just that it occurs on "Christmas", and according to your Calendar there can't possibly be a "Christmas" between CA3 #49-51. 

Untenable? No. But unnecessary. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 06:23 am    
By Somebody

Plus there's the Cable/Deadpool thing, where you presented the two options as being Cable disappearing for a long time where he's clearly not meant to, or DP & co bouncing back and forth through time when we're told it's "Interspacial and intraspacial", not "intertemporal". 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Just that it occurs on "Christmas", and according to your Calendar there can't possibly be a "Christmas" between CA3 #49-51. 
<<<

Psst... I'm pretty sure there IS no CA3 #51 

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 01:11 pm  
By jephyork
Director

I was *wondering* why I couldn't remember what happened in it...!  

And, yeah, the C&D #17 thing is a good example too, of twisting the story in crazy ways to try to make all the time-passage references work... I remember that other weird options suggested at the time were pretending that Deadpool was dimension-hopping for months, not minutes, and trying to unhook the XFOR2 miniseries from its references in UX #453 and X #165 and bring it forward to just pre-HOM. 

"Ignoring the conflicting temporal references" never seemed to be much of an option, though. Even though it surely was a much simpler solution than, say, pretending that Deadpool was traveling forward in time to appear in HoM, then back... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 02:33 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
...and trying to unhook the XFOR2 miniseries from its references in UX #453 and X #165 and bring it forward to just pre-HOM. 

Didn't we end up unhooking Claremont's X-Force references anyway, since they ended up making no sense as a reference to the mini? (since Cannonballs ended up on opposing sides to X-Force for most of that mini, then dashed off to Providence to try & find Cable after X-Force #6 while X-Force disbanded; and Sunspot had already quit halfway through and didn't reappear, so we reinterpreted the "Cable's cause" bit as a more general reference to all the people following Cable and referring to him as the "Saviour"). 

Possibly, Claremont had been working from Liefeld's original plan for a second X-Force mini, which had Cable ending up in Magik's Limbo while Cannonballs ran an X-Force on Earth, but they ended up coming to nothing when Liefeld quit after mini 1. 

Oh, and speaking of editorial stuff, Paul, speaking from the other side of X-Factor #1, the clumsy removal of Rictor from C/D #18 (where they forgot to fix the dialogue on one page, leading to Cable addressing an invisible Rictor...) strongly suggests an editorial intent that C/D #18 is post M-Day...

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2006 01:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

As if having C&D #17 be an HoM crossover doesn't.  

I think we decided we could ignore the "Cable's cause" line in UX #453 if necessary, but the line in X #165 about Cannonball "playing hooky from X-Force" is (to me, anyway) harder to ignore. 

My preference is still to keep the XFOR2 mini before X #165, keep C&D #15-18 just before HoM ... and, well, nobody says there has to be all that much time elapsing between the two, does there? I mean, X #165 is only on a "Christmas", and HoM is only in "late summer", if you subscribe to a literal interpretation of temporal clues... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Feb 2006 01:13 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
As if having C&D #17 be an HoM crossover doesn't.  
<<<

Obviously. I was trying to prove it by Calendar rules. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I think we decided we could ignore the "Cable's cause" line in UX #453 if necessary, but the line in X #165 about Cannonball "playing hooky from X-Force" is (to me, anyway) harder to ignore. 
<<<

Even with Sam not actually being an X-Force member in the mini? 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
My preference is still to keep the XFOR2 mini before X #165, keep C&D #15-18 just before HoM ... and, well, nobody says there has to be all that much time elapsing between the two, does there? I mean, X #165 is only on a "Christmas", and HoM is only in "late summer", if you subscribe to a literal interpretation of temporal clues... 
<<<

We've got - obviously - XM 166-176 in there by definition, plus all the UXM issues published between the two as well. While I'm not subscribing to a literal interpretation, that still feels like too long for comfort to have Cable missing and DP in the BB's tubes.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Feb 2006 11:39 am    
By jephyork
Director

I never got the impression that X-Force broke up after the mini. I mean, they showed up together in C&D #16 or so, right? 

I assumed that, after the mini ended, Cannonball hooked back up with them in some loose sense. He's got Siryn with him while searching for Cable, and I thought that the two of them were the ones that sent X-Force to confront the Black Box in that C&D issue. Although my memory may be playing tricks on me, as I haven't read either of those arcs since the trade came out... 

If he IS affiliated with them, a "playing hooky from X-Force" line would make sense. However, in addition to the X issues you cited, UX #455-461, ASTONX3 #2-12 and W3 #20-31 occur between X #165 and HoM ... okay, maybe that's a lot of time passing after all. 

I don't know. The references in UX #453 and X #165 WERE both mistakes, as written. Maybe they SHOULD be ignored in favor of the evidence/inference that the XFOR2 mini occurs shortly before HoM. 

(However, doesn't the Thing make a comment in the XFOR2 mini about a Disassembled Avengers? Therefore it's got to at least occur before A4 #1...) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 01:40 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, I re-read the close of XFOR2 #6 and skimmed C&D #15-18. I got the impression that, at the end of XFOR2 #6, Cannonball was left with the urge to carry on Cable's work. And he appears WITH the rest of X-Force in C&D #18. 

Put together, I get the feeling that -- although Sunspot may never have rejoined -- X-Force did not break up at the end of the XFOR2 mini, and Cannonball became reaffiliated with them. If so, the "playing hooky from X-Force" line in X #165 can stand. 

(Not "should" -- just "can".) 

However, in XFOR2 #5 or so, the Thing makes a comment about Tony Stark not being able to afford the Avengers, placing the XFOR2 arc after A:FINALE. 

My recent analysis of GAM4 #1-6 pointed out an offhand reference that placed it during a time of active Avengers -- either before FINALE or after A4 #6. And, of course, GAM4 is after his blindness is cured in X #165. 

Do we have any solid evidence that places FINALE either before, or after, X #165? Interpreting the reference in GAM4 #2 the way the writer intended would place X #165 before FINALE ... but taking the X-Force reference in X #165 literally would place FINALE before X #165. 

X 165 - Gambit cured 
GAM4 2 - a cured Gambit references an active Avengers 
FINALE - Avengers close doors 

or... 

FINALE - Avengers close doors 
XFO2 5 - X-Force re-forms, Thing references inactive Avengers 
X 165 - Cannonball referenced as X-Force member 

The Gambit reference is easier to re-interpret, but the X #165 reference may not hold if we decide that the passage of time between X #165 and HoM is too wildly variant from the passage of time between XFO2 #6 and C&D #15 / HoM. 

Ugh. Is there anything else linking Finale to X #165? I seem to remember an issue of Astonishing where the Beast considered borrowing an Avengers Quinjet ... what issue was that, and can we use it as inference that the Avengers were active at the time? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 07:09 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Okay, I re-read the close of XFOR2 #6 and skimmed C&D #15-18. I got the impression that, at the end of XFOR2 #6, Cannonball was left with the urge to carry on Cable's work. And he appears WITH the rest of X-Force in C&D #18. 

Put together, I get the feeling that -- although Sunspot may never have rejoined -- X-Force did not break up at the end of the XFOR2 mini, and Cannonball became reaffiliated with them. If so, the "playing hooky from X-Force" line in X #165 can stand. 

(Not "should" -- just "can".) 
<<<

C/D #15: 

DP: "[Cable]'s missing?" 

Irene: "Sacrificed himself - or disappeared, we hope - fighting alongside X-Force against the Skornn four days ago. Sam Guthrie and Theresa Cassidy have been here ever since, trying to use Nate's teleportation matric t lock on to his DNA signature." 

So, whether or not you take the "four days" thing as literal, Sam was more interested in saving Cable and rushed to Providence to try and help find him, while none of the others bothered (I'm half-inclinded to suggest a BTS for Siryn in X-Force #6, given this). No room for an X-Force team. 

In C/D #18, Sam specifically mentions "making some calls." He's pulling together an X-Force team essentially from scratch rather than calling in the active team. Otherwise Caliban and others would be there too. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Ugh. Is there anything else linking Finale to X #165? I seem to remember an issue of Astonishing where the Beast considered borrowing an Avengers Quinjet ... what issue was that, and can we use it as inference that the Avengers were active at the time? 
<<<

IIRC - and I don't have the AXMs to hand - it's the opposite, and Beast's looking for disbandment surplus.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 25 Feb 2006 11:41 am    Post subject: Dr. Katherine Reynolds
By scottandrewhutchins

Her chronology is messed up. It needs to be compared to the order of the listings under Hellstorm, which are correct. GR2 17 should be her last appearance until The Legion of Night. It takes place after Daimon leaves for L.A., which is at the beginning of M/SPT 24, currently listed as Dr. Reynolds's last appearance. It's also a flashback, as indicated by the round corners of the frame. Johnny is reminiscing about friendship and how he got back in touch with Daimon, flashback interwoven with imagination and memory. I don't think MTU 32 is placed consistently with Hellstorm's list either, but it should be corrected for Reynolds to match the order of Hellstorm.

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Thread 21

Posted: 25 Feb 2006 03:27 pm    Post subject: Reprint Guide
By scottandrewhutchins

Does anyone know a good guide to Marvel reprints? 

I worked on one related to the monster/horror/mystery mostly reprint titles in the '70s, but I think I stopped because I found one like it already online. That doesn't apply to many comics explicitly in the mainstream Marvel Universe, though, although I remember reading one about a dreamer where the last panel reveals him to be one of the Sleepwalkers, long before that character or his people were ever formerly introduced. I couldn't find it when I hunted for it, though.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Feb 2006 04:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

http://www.math.ucla.edu/~alee/reprints.html 


watching: kentucky vs. lsu

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Thread 22

Posted: 25 Feb 2006 12:33 pm    Post subject: Wendy & Richard Pini
By scottandrewhutchins

There is a Wendy and Richard Pini in GR2 17, and they seem like regular characters (I have only 2 issues of GR2, and they don't appear in the other one). There is no lisiting for them in the chronology. Are they the Elfquest Pinis, intentional namesakes/homages, or coincidences?

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Posted: 25 Feb 2006 02:07 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I can pretty well guarantee it's at least a reference to the real Pinis. I don't have the issues in question, so I don't know if it's just a namesake or if it's intended to represent the real McCoy. I've attached a picture of the two of them, and that should help tell you whether or not they're supposed to be the same folks... 

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Feb 2006 02:52 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

They look the same, only Wendy is blonde in the comic. Her face certainly matches up, though. I wonder how many itmes they appeared. They seem to have something to do with Kathy Milner, who was Johnny's gf at the time.

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Posted: 26 Feb 2006 01:57 am 
By Frederic Krier

According to Snood's Master List: 

"PINI, RICHARD - husband of Wendy, special effects/prop-man for Delazny studios 
--Ghost Rider II#14 (15, 17-19 

PINI, WENDY - costume designer for Delazny studios, wife of Richard 
--Ghost Rider II#14 (15, 17-19"

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Thread 23

Posted: 26 Feb 2006 01:40 pm    Post subject: Moses Magnum question his origin......
By Enda80

Had the origin of Moses Magnum ever appeared before a 1990's published story? 

On page 20 of Spider-Man Saga#2, his backstory is 
revised so that he joined forces with a rebel guerrila 
outfit in the Eritrean Civil War. Was this ever seen?

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Thread 24

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 01:28 pm    Post subject: Sabretooth BTS in ASM #323?
By jephyork
Director

The MCP lists Sabretooth as appearing BTS in ASM #323, but I'm not seeing him there. 

Yes, this issue reveals that he was behind the previous issue's assassination, but all that does is confirm his shadowed appearance there -- it shouldn't give him a BTS here. And as far as I can tell, this issue doesn't comment on his current whereabouts, nothing in the issue is affected by his current actions, and nobody in the issue is acting under his orders. 

Am I missing something? Or should Sabretooth's BTS for this issue be removed? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Feb 2006 10:16 pm    
By metaldragon

Does he appear in a later issue and make a comment that he was a witness to the events of ASM #323? If he was there watching but not shown "on screen" or mentioned in the issue itself, would that still be a BTS appearance?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 27 Feb 2006 10:41 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It would. 


watching: tonight show

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Posted: 28 Feb 2006 12:08 pm    
By jephyork
Director

It would, but (as far as I know) that didn't happen in this case. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 04:12 am    Post subject: Marvel Knights books
By Paul O'Brien
Director

From Joe Quesada's Newsarama Q&A this week, explaining that the MK line is now going to be confined to miniseries similar to LOKI:- 

Quote: 
>>>
So, based on what we have coming up and the success of projects like Banner, Cage, and Loki, I think fans will see a more clearly defined MK. I think this also helps on the consumer level because I often get asked questions about books like Loki. Is it canon? Is it in continuity? Now the answer is simple  no  

...Unless you want it to be.  
<<<

Now, here's what I take Quesada to mean by that. Marvel does not regard these books as canon. They're free to do what they want, and later stories needn't feel bound by them. On the other hand, they're not actively setting out to contradict the MU, so you can feel free to read them in that context if you wish. But, for our purposes, future Marvel Knights books can be treated as non-canon. 

That probably also covers the current GHOST RIDER book.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 05:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
for our purposes, future Marvel Knights books can be treated as non-canon. 
<<<

...unless we want them to be.  

Here's the rest of his quote: 


Quote: 
>>>
NRAMA: Some readers have still expressed confusion over what will make a Marvel Knights book a Marvel Knights book, even under the new definition and some of the other resulting changes. Just to nail it down 100%, lets try to clear it up 

It was defined as the home for limited series by high profile creative teams that fall outside of the realm of the Marvel Universe. 

JQ: Yes, or just a step to the right or left of continuity. Like the books I mentioned above, a title like Banner is an evergreen Hulk story that is timeless and showcases two incredible talents at the top of their game. I mean thats what Banner was created to be in the first place. It was a fantastic story that could not be told if it had to be tide to continuity at the time that we wanted to tell it. What I like about this is that its keeping closer to what the original Marvel Knights formula was meant to be. 

NRAMA: So is Marvel Universe and continuity interchangeable here? Meaning should a project like the upcoming Fury: Peacekeeper, or the announced new western Ghost Rider title by Garth Ennis and Clayton Crain always be regarded out of continuity, even though they could be considered just to be taking place in an earlier era than the contemporary Marvel Universe? 

JQ: For the most part yes, but its also up to the reader to decide for themselves. 

Certain stories will obviously not fit, but something like the western Ghost Rider story could certainly fit in if you wanted it to. But what were saying is that you dont have to work that hard. Just enjoy it for what it is. What Im basically saying is the readers of the new upcoming Marvel Knights books can read them for just the story without having to add on the pressure of how this fits into a larger tapestry. I know the writers and artist wont be creating with those restraints. 
<<<

Interpret how you will, of course, but I'm focusing on the "it could certainly fit in if you wanted it to" line... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Jan 2006 06:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
for our purposes, future Marvel Knights books can be treated as non-canon. 
<<<

...unless we want them to be.  
<<<

Yes, but that's a personal decision. For the Project, if Marvel says it's not canon, then it's not. Everyone is, of course, free to place appearances wherever they want, in their own personal chronologies. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 21 Jan 2006 06:18 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So you're interpreting the statement to mean "although each fan can decide on their own that a given book is canon, Marvel doesn't consider them to be"? 

I didn't read it that way. I read it more as Joe sidestepping the question ... read the rest of his quote, where when asked if the upcoming MK books were non-canon, he said "for the most part" ... and added THREE times that the fans can decide for themselves. 

If he wanted to say that the books were non-canon, he would have come out and said it, right? He wouldn't have danced around the answer to this degree. 

I read his statement as, "I don't want to be tied down to a 'yes they are'/'no they're not' answer. We're going to tell fun stories, and if you fans want to think any given one is canon, go right ahead." 

Well, we're fans. If we want to think a given book is canon ... he didn't explicitly tell us NO, did he? 


My take: most of the upcoming MK series are, for one reason or another, not going to fit into canon. If that's the case, there's no point in taking a crowbar to Marvel continuity to make them fit. However, if we find that a given series DOES fit into continuity, with no problems ... while he's never going to explicitly confirm it, we the fans can go right ahead and think that it's canon. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Jan 2006 11:48 pm    
By Col_Fury

I think that Joe Q. is using the term loosely.(on purpose, mind you) 

He used Fury: Peacemaker as an example. It's in the past, not current continuity. Banner was another one. It's a timeless tale, but it can't happen during Way's run on the book where he's on another planet. Therefore, it's sometime in past continuity, not present continuity. 

He's using so many different examples of the word, I think he's trying to dodge the bullet while answering it.(not the first time that's happened) 

Does that mean they're not canon, or just not in current continuity? I think that they should be considered canon, in whatever time frame they can fit, unless they absolutely can't. But that's just me.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 22 Jan 2006 01:36 am    
By jephyork
Director

While he did use "Fury: Peacemaker" as an example, that same example deliberately drew a distinction between "canon" and "present-day continuity". 

Quote: 
>>>
NRAMA: should a project like the upcoming Fury: Peacekeeper, or the announced new western Ghost Rider title by Garth Ennis and Clayton Crain always be regarded out of continuity, even though they could be considered just to be taking place in an earlier era than the contemporary Marvel Universe? 

JQ: For the most part yes, but its also up to the reader to decide for themselves. 
<<<

Note that he didn't absolutely say "they're non-canon" ... but I think he's leaning heavily that way. "Non-canon unless." 

My take, again, is that if a series can slide seamlessly into continuity, not causing one single ripple, we the fans can deem it canon. But if there's one single hitch -- one single contradiction with established continuity -- forget it. 

-Jeph! 

Of course, watch some future Handbook make reference to a problematic MK series...

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Posted: 22 Jan 2006 01:51 am    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
That probably also covers the current GHOST RIDER book. 
<<<

Why would that be? The current GR book doesn't contradict anything that the previous MK series didn't gnaw the skin off and toss into a salt mine. If anything, I'd say that Devin Grayson series, with Johnny Blaze forgetting his entire life since his days as a stunt rider, is more of a candidate for de-canonization than the Ennis one (though "Hammer Lane"'s version of GR had a tiny cameo in TBolts years back). At least the current book gives a clear reasoning as to why Ghost Rider has been absent from the MU for so long: he's been trapped in hell. The only real goof is Ennis' penchant for using real-world time to cover character history. It's been "thirty years" since Johnny became GR, and "two years" since he's been in hell. But those're topical. The "Director's Cut" issue gives no indication at all that Ennis is writing non-canon, he makes clear he's ignoring GR's supporting cast on purpose (instead of letting the book be an "exercise in nostalgia", as he puts it). 

Yes, I did just defend the guy who did the continuity-hobbiting "Punisher: The Cell" one shot, but he really hasn't screwed up in GR yet, and it has an issue to go.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 01:55 am    
By jephyork
Director

Also, the current GR book was conceived and has been mostly published BEFORE the just-announced MK revamp. I see no reason why it would fall under the "mostly non-canon" remit of the new MK line. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 02:11 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
While he did use "Fury: Peacemaker" as an example, that same example deliberately drew a distinction between "canon" and "present-day continuity". 
<<<

And I'm deliberately drawing a distinction between readers/fans, and the Project. A fan can, of course, on his own, arbitrarily decide that any title is canon. The Project, though, follows a set of rules and policies. 

To me, the question as phrased eliminates the interpretation that "continuity" is somehow related to "where in time" the story takes place. I read the question to say that they're using continuity as another name for "canon". 



jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Of course, watch some future Handbook make reference to a problematic MK series... 
<<<

Not for us, assuming that Marvel has already said that the title in question isn't canon. Marvel doesn't tell the Project that a story is canon. They can only tell us that it isn't. 


watching: 24

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Posted: 22 Jan 2006 03:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

I wasn't trying to say that Newsarama uses "canon" and "continuity" to mean different things. I was saying that they drew a distinction between "canon" and "present-day continuity". A book can still be canon, even if it doesn't fit into present-day continuity -- if it fits into past continuity. Newsarama was asking Joe if MK books like "Fury: Peacemaker", that might be able to fit into past continuity, were still considered non-canon by virtue of being under the MK imprint. 

His answer? "For the most part". Which, although very negative, is NOT a definitive No. It seems like he's leaving the door open for an occasional MK series to be canon. 

Which is why I stated my take on MK's new remit to be "non-canon unless". 

Quote: 
>>>
Marvel doesn't tell the Project that a story is canon. They can only tell us that it isn't. 
<<<

Marvel can tell us whatever they want. The recent revelation in the 198 Files that "Morlocks" is in fact canon, for example. 

What I'm saying here is -- I don't think Joe has given a DEFINITIVE answer that all future MK series are to be considered officially non-canon. When asked, he's said the following: 

"no  Unless you want it to be." 
"For the most part." 
"its also up to the reader to decide for themselves." 

I get that you've decided that the MCP is not "readers" -- we follow certain protocols, including "if Marvel says it's non-canon, it's non-canon". Which pretty much eliminates the last half of quote #1, and the entirety of quote #3 from consideration. Which leaves us with a nice definitive "no" -- and a less-definitive and somewhat confusing "for the most part". 

Which, again, seems to me that he's leaving the door open for the occasional MK series to be declared canon after all. 

It seems that you feel differently. 

Tell you what -- let's wait and see what gets published under the MK line. There's no sense digging into the semantics of what was said, what was meant and how we interpreted it until we're presented with an MK-published series that (a) doesn't contradict continuity in any way or (b) is heavily referenced by canon Marvel publications. 

Once THAT little miracle happens, we can get back to a discussion of What Joe Quesada Meant. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 11:51 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>

Quote: 
>>>
Marvel doesn't tell the Project that a story is canon. They can only tell us that it isn't. 
<<<

Marvel can tell us whatever they want. The recent revelation in the 198 Files that "Morlocks" is in fact canon, for example. 
<<<

They can tell us that, but it has no meaning. If they never told us it wasn't canon, then Morlocks has always been canon for us, unless it can't be. And if it can't be canon, then it isn't (for the Project), regardless of Marvel's claims that it is. As a policy here, Marvel's canon claims are suspect, because Marvel knows that definitively removing a title from canon is the kiss of death. Therefore, we have to make our own determination. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I get that you've decided that the MCP is not "readers" -- we follow certain protocols, including "if Marvel says it's non-canon, it's non-canon". 
<<<

No, I mean the Project is not *just* readers. I would assume that editors at Marvel are also "readers", but beyond that, they have a higher responsibility. I'm a reader, and can personally decide that everything Marvel publishes, including Barbie and Not Brand Echh, is canon (in fact, if I want Dark Horse's Buffy to be canon to the Marvel Universe, BOOM, it is), and none can stop me. But in my dual role with the Project, I don't have that privilege. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Which pretty much eliminates the last half of quote #1, and the entirety of quote #3 from consideration. Which leaves us with a nice definitive "no" -- and a less-definitive and somewhat confusing "for the most part". 

Which, again, seems to me that he's leaving the door open for the occasional MK series to be declared canon after all. 

It seems that you feel differently. 
<<<

Well, I don't feel like I've eliminated anything, and I apologize, if I've left you with that perception. We are still free to debate if Marvel has said that a particular title is not canon (would you agree that he said Marvel considers Loki non-canon?), and we can debate whether a title can be canon, but I'm just stating that those are the longstanding policies of the Project, and I think we should follow them. 


watching: 24

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Posted: 23 Jan 2006 10:56 am    
By Jhaeman

I wouldn't give much weight to his words either way--pretty much any interview I've ever read he's come across as reluctant to say anything is not canon (which would turn off those into continuity) while similarly reluctant to say anything is canon (to avoid worrying about contradictions & nitpickers). Thus, his frequent line about "just enjoy the stories".

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 12:42 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Marvel doesn't tell the Project that a story is canon. They can only tell us that it isn't. 
<<<

Marvel can tell us whatever they want. The recent revelation in the 198 Files that "Morlocks" is in fact canon, for example. 
<<<

They can tell us that, but it has no meaning. If they never told us it wasn't canon, then Morlocks has always been canon for us, unless it can't be. And if it can't be canon, then it isn't (for the Project), regardless of Marvel's claims that it is. 
<<<

Okay, my head is spinning now, because I thought that we had decided that "Morlocks" wasn't canon. Am I right about that? 

And what constitutes "can't be canon"? I mean, surely if a series is *blatantly* non-canon -- major characters killed, wildly variant status quos -- then yes, we can safely ignore it -- and if Marvel should make a claim that that series is canon, we can likely ignore that too. (Unless such a claim comes with an explanation attached, of course.) 

But, talking specifically about "Morlocks" ... I was under the impression it was declared non-canon, not because it "can't" be canon, but because it really didn't look like it was. Meaning, we had no hard evidence that it was non-canon -- it just looked a bit too different to us. 

Now Marvel's said it's canon. And I don't have a problem with reversing any assumptions made earlier that it wasn't -- because although it LOOKS odd, it doesn't definitively contradict anything we know about the MU. 

Of course, if I'm wrong, and my memory that we declared Morlocks non-canon because it "seemed too different" is incorrect ... then this whole discussion can be thrown out the window. 

But what I'm saying is -- if, in a case where we decided that a series was non-canon because it didn't QUITE match up (NOT because it contains any hard, absolute contradictions of the MU), and then Marvel turns around and claims that the series is canon -- then that, to me, is a case where Marvel CAN tell us that something is canon, and we have to reverse our assumption. 

If such a case ever occured here. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
As a policy here, Marvel's canon claims are suspect 
<<<

Maybe a listing of all our policies would come in handy here. Because I'm a Director and I don't know them all. Are they actually written out anywhere? 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Well, I don't feel like I've eliminated anything, and I apologize, if I've left you with that perception. 
<<<

At this point, I'm not sure WHAT you've said -- versus what you've implied or what I've inferred. I realize that, as the Administrator, you don't like weighing in definitively on debates because you don't want people to feel that you've made up your mind -- but at times I wish you could be a bit clearer. This might be my fault, but it's hard for me to take your exact meaning sometimes. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
would you agree that he said Marvel considers Loki non-canon? 
<<<

Technically, I think he said "books like Loki" are non-canon. And no, I don't know if he meant "books like Loki" to actually include "Loki", but I would *assume* he meant to include it. So my answer to your question is "probably". 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I'm just stating that those are the longstanding policies of the Project, and I think we should follow them. 
<<<

Ah, there's a clear statement of opinion. I like it. Now -- what exactly ARE our policies?  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 03:06 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

So does this mean the following titles are not canon... 

Marvel Knights 
Marvel Knights Spider-Man 
Marvel Knights Punisher 
Marvel Knights Daredevil 
Marvel Knights 4 
Marvel Knights Ghost Rider 

I'm not sure how Marvel expects to gain new fans if old fans who have been away for a while (I largely stopped in 1994) are totally confused as to all the different continuities. After liking Aguirre-Sacasa's Nightcrawler, I've started picking up his Marvel Knights 4, but I sure couldn't tell if they were continuity or not...

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 06:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Let me try to put it this way: If it can be canon (in other words, if we can place the story in every character's chronologies so that it makes sense, or is at least possible for the story to occur), then we don't need Marvel's assurances that it's canon, because we already assume that it is. 

If it can be canon, then it is, unless Marvel says it isn't. 

Not sure where the specific confusion is coming in. 

As for Morlocks, I'm not the proper one to address that. I don't have the book, and I've never read it, and consequently, would have only entered the discussion to try to clarify policy questions. Perhaps some of the folks who believe Morlocks is not canon can more properly state their reasons than I could. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 06:57 am  
By Paul O'Brien
Director

scottandrewhutchins wrote: 
So does this mean the following titles are not canon... 

Marvel Knights 
Marvel Knights Spider-Man 
Marvel Knights Punisher 
Marvel Knights Daredevil 
Marvel Knights 4 
Marvel Knights Ghost Rider 


All of those are definitely canon (with the possible exception of Ghost Rider). Quesada's just talking about the oddball miniseries of the sort that Marvel Knights will CONTINUE to publish, not the ongoing titles which are being folded into the mainstream Marvel Heroes line.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 11:49 am    
By jephyork
Director

Russ, I suppose my "specific confusion" came in because Morlocks is listed on the non-canon list in the FAQ. 

I therefore assumed that you, specifically, had determined that it wasn't canon, and had specific reasons for that decision. 

So your statement of "if Marvel says a book is canon, that's meaningless, because it's always canon to us anyway, unless it can't be" ... well, what did that mean? That you continue to maintain that Morlocks is non-canon? 

I guess not -- I guess you meant that you never decided it was non-canon in the first place. 

In which case, your statement makes more sense ... but if you specifically didn't decide that Morlocks is non-canon, how did it get on the non-canon list? 

For more discussion of "Morlocks" canonicity (and to get this thread back to Marvel Knights canonicity), I refer everyone back to this thread ... which I'll be posting in shortly.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 06:52 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Russ, I suppose my "specific confusion" came in because Morlocks is listed on the non-canon list in the FAQ. 

I therefore assumed that you, specifically, had determined that it wasn't canon, and had specific reasons for that decision. 

So your statement of "if Marvel says a book is canon, that's meaningless, because it's always canon to us anyway, unless it can't be" ... well, what did that mean? That you continue to maintain that Morlocks is non-canon? 

I guess not -- I guess you meant that you never decided it was non-canon in the first place. 

In which case, your statement makes more sense ... but if you specifically didn't decide that Morlocks is non-canon, how did it get on the non-canon list? 
<<<

Heh. It was added to the non-canon list, based on a post made by...um...you, in December of 2002, when you said this: 


Quote: 
"Morlocks", to use your example above, is set on a Marvel-LIKE earth -- but no characters from the series have shown up in the main MU, and vice versa. So it's non-canon -- we have no PROOF that it actually has ties to the Marvel Multiverse, aside from its amazing similarity. 


And confirmed by Paul B., in January, 2004. 

Again, I haven't determined anything, because I haven't read the book. The non-canon list is simply a reflection of the general agreement of both the forum, and the directors. 


watching: jeph

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Jan 2006 10:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hah! That's awesome! 

That's some pretty weird logic I'm using in that quote, though ... no proof it's canon, so it's not? I'm going to have to dig that thread out and read the whole thing for context. 

I have to tell you, *I* haven't actually read Morlocks, either. I skimmed each issue in the store, but I get the feeling I was probably trusting someone else's contention that it wasn't canon when I made that statement. 

I wonder what other chaos I'm responsible for around here?... 

-Jeph! 

EDIT: I've begun shifting all Morlocks-related posts to the "is Morlocks canon?" thread.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2006 04:41 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I didn't feel like starting a new thread just for this, but -- Marvel has just backhandedly stated that the just-finished Marvel Knights Ghost Rider series IS, in fact, canon. 

Check it out, from a newsarama interview with Daniel Way about an all-new ONGOING Ghost Rider series on the horizon... 

Quote: 
>>>
just to nip any confusion in the bud, the new, ongoing Ghost Rider series is set in the Marvel Universe proper. As such, Way is going to be working to make sure it all works. ... "I've consulted with Ralph Macchio and Tom Brevoort about the twists and turns we're proposing, to make sure we get it just right. So far, so good."  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
"We begin where the current miniseries ends," Way explained, "with Johnny Blaze/Ghost Rider trapped in Hell." 
<<<

So, the new series is canon, and it picks up where the mini left off -- confirming the mini's canonicity as well. Neat. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 28 Feb 2006 01:07 pm    Post subject: Harry Leland in Classic X-men #7
By frogcoin

hi, i was reading Classic X-men #7 and found to Harry Leland, he was with Emma Frost in the moment the Sentinel Attack in the beach house of Shaw. 

Leland Doesnt appear in Cx 7/2, i wanted to notice this so itll be added in a future 

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2006 03:12 pm    
By Dhall

frogcoin, 
What do you mean? Harry is already listed for CX 7/2. Do you mean that he shouldn't be, or that the listing is placed incorrectly? 

Dave 


LELAND, HARRY 
GENX -1 
X:HC 4-FB 
CX 7/2 
M/SH3 11/3 
{UX 129} 
UX 132 
UX 133 
UX 134 
UX 135 
UX 152 
NM 22 
UX 189 
UX 207 
UX 208 
UX 209 
S-H2 34 
S-H2 35

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2006 07:03 pm    
By frogcoin

sorry i didnt tell very clear, i was talking about he isnt being listed. i was reading Classic X-men and checking a few thing with the MCP when i didnt see him listed, i was surprised by you showing it listed by now, so i clear cache and reload the navigator, but i still dont see it listed even right now. 

for comic search CX 7/2 i dont see him and neither for figure, somebody else can see it? it is weird

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2006 07:06 pm    
By Dhall

Yeah, his listing doesn't come up on a search for CX 7/2. Anyone know why? 


Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2006 07:27 pm
By ADMINISTRATOR

Leland's appearance in CX 7/2 was added with our update on February 8. 

It'll be added to the Search functionality, the next time that Jimmy Petersson updates his index. 


watching: lsu vs. south carolina

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 01 Feb 2006 04:07 am    Post subject: Morlocks 1-4
By Col_Fury

Morlocks #1 
Initiation 
W: Geoff Johns 
D: Shawn Martinbrough 
Published: June, 2002 

Appearances: 
Postman(Dave), Litterbug, Electric Eve(Eve), Angel Dust(Christine), Cell(Loc), Shatter, Trader, Dr. Metellus, Slater, Phipps, Garrett. 

Intro: 
Only ten percent of American born mutants live to see their twentieth birthday. Some are attacked by frightened mobs, many murdered in confrontations with other mutants, but most have been executed by the U. S. governments homo-superior extermination androids: the Sentinels. Throughout America, desperate and fearful mutants have bonded together in small groups, living under the streets of our largest cities where they remain hidden from Sentinel detection. They do not want to be heroes or villains, they only hope to survive. More than just an urban legend, less than the horrific monsters America proclaims them to be. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: Chicago, night 
Two cops answer an anonymous call and run into Electric Eve, Postman, and Litterbug, who are stealing food. They escape after Postman makes Garret forget what a gun is. 
Pg8-pg21: Chicago, same night 
Some gang members are being chased by the police, one of them mutates and is shot. He liquefies and drains into the sewers, where he meets the Morlocks: Postman, Trader, Litterbug, Electric Eve, Angel Dust, and Shatter. After a brief fight with some cops, the new guy is named Cell, and Postman tells him(and us!) about their group, and that theyre going to grant each member one wish each before they vanish underground. Cell decides to join them. 
Pg22-pg24: Sentinel Facility, outside Chicago 
Sentinel units 32 through 35 return to base, where Slater briefs Dr. Metellus on their activities in Detroit. Metellus orders 24 hour sweeps until these mutants are exterminated. 

References: 
All in one night. 

The returning Sentinels killed seven mutants in Detroit at 10:30 PM, and they return to base with wet blood on their feet, so this is still before midnight. 

Theres snow on the ground, and one of the cops mentions that its winter. 

Rumors of morlocks(mutants living underground) started in New York a few years ago, which is where these guys got the idea of what to call themselves: the Morlocks. 

Police officers have to report mutant sightings, and they are aware of the Sentinel program. One says: Dont need the robots eatin up tax dollars. This could mean that the Sentinel program is relatively new, or it could mean that its been around a while, depending on how you read it. 

Lending support to the Sentinel program having not been around for a while is that civilians dont seem to be aware of it. Cell, before he mutated, knew what a mutant was, but didnt know what a Sentinel was. He had heard of morlocks, but thought that they were cannibals. 

Another quote: 
Metellus: Tremendous inventions, these Sentinels. 
Slater: Listed in Newsday Magazine as one of the top ten inventions in human history. Number three, I think. 

All this establishes is that Sentinel robots have been around a while, which they have at this point. It doesnt necessarily say anything about the current program that Metellus is running. 

Morlocks #2 
the Rockets Red Glare 
W: Geoff Johns 
D: Shawn Martinbrough 
Published: July, 2002 

Appearances: 
Postman(Dave), Litterbug, Electric Eve(Eve), Angel Dust(Christine), Cell(Loc), Shatter, Trader, Dr. Metellus, Slater-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: Chicago, night 
Postman burns a tattoo off Litterbugs shoulder, while the others chat. 
Pg7-pg8: Meanwhile, Lincoln Park, night 
After talking on the phone with Slater, Metellus watches a video of Sentinels killing mutants. 
Pg9-pg10: Chicago, night 
The morlocks chat. 
Pg11-pg12: Chicago Police Department, night 
Police officers discuss yesterdays encounter with the Morlocks, then announce plans for a strike force. 
Pg13-pg14: Animal Control Center, Chicago, night 
The Morlocks free Shatters dog Hank, granting his wish. 
Pg15-pg22: Chicago, night 
The Morlocks go to Eves ex-pimps place, and she kills him for revenge. Postmans not happy about it, but thats her wish. Suddenly, theyre attacked by Sentinels! 

References: 
Pg1-pg12: the day after last issue. 

Pg12-pg14: one night. 
Hankss cage says that he was found on February 12, and that his day of termination is Thursday morning. Animal Control holds animals for fourteen days, and puts unclaimed animals to sleep on the fifteenth day, so his day of termination will be February 27. Since the cage says Thursday morning, were in the week of termination, most likely the 25th or 26th. 
This also places last issue between February 12th and 26th, because Shatter states his wish in that issue, meaning that hes aware that Hank is already at the Animal Control Center. 

Pg13-pg22 all occur on April 13, around 1:30 AM. 

These characters dont know each other very well, lending support to the theory that this Sentinel program hasnt been around very long. They only recently banded together, so the Sentinel program must have also recently started, as of early February. 

Morlocks #3 
Sinners and Saviors 
W: Geoff Johns 
D: Shawn Martinbrough 
Published: August, 2002 

Appearances: 
Postman(Dave), Litterbug, Electric Eve(Eve), Angel Dust(Christine), Cell(Loc), Shatter, Trader, Dr. Metellus, Slater. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12: Continued from last issue. 
The Morlocks fight and escape the Sentinels and go back into the sewers. While they regroup, the police strike force attacks! Everyone fights, Trader dies, and the polices minds are wiped by Postman. Angel Dust says that its Postmans turn for a wish. 
Pg13: Sentinel facility 
The Sentinels return to base, and Slater mentions that the 24 hour sweeps are wearing the Sentinels down. 
Pg14-pg16: a Chicago hospital, night 
Postman pulls the plug on his comatose wife. 
Pg17-pg22: Chicago, 7:40 PM 
Angel Dust tells her parents why she ran away, filling her wish. When she regroups with the others, Litterbug suggests they destroy the Sentinel base. 

References: 
pg1-pg16 are still on April 13, around 1:30 AM. 
Pg17-pg22 are on that night, still on April 13. 

Slaters comment about the Sentinels getting run down was in relation to the constant 24 hour sweeps theyve been doing since February. Its a reference to events in the story, not a reference to how long the program has been running. 

Morlocks #4 
Last Stop 
W: Geoff Johns 
D: Shawn Martinbrough 
Published: September, 2002 

Appearances: 
Postman(Dave), Litterbug, Electric Eve(Eve), Angel Dust(Christine), Cell(Loc), Shatter, Dr. Metellus, Slater. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: Sentinel base 
Metellus reviews surveillance from last issues Morlocks fight with the Sentinels. 
Pg2-pg8: Continued from last issue 
Litterbug reveals that when he was in the Army he was a Sentinel mechanic, and puts together a plan to destroy them, which is his wish. They go to the street, disable a Sentinel, and hide inside while it returns to its base. 
Pg9-pg21: Sentinel facility 
Slater tells Metellus that a Sentinel is returning, and as it does, the Morlocks burst out and start their attack. Litterbug disables the command center computer while the others distract the Sentinels. Postman makes Slater forget what a Sentinel is, while Cell tricks a Sentinel into killing himself and Metellus, fulfilling his wish. The rest escape. 
Outside, Eve jumpstarts a van, but Angel Dust decides to stay in Chicago with her parents. The others drive off. 
Pg22: Atlantic City, night 
A mutant looks out from under a manhole cover. 

References: 
All in one night, still April 13. 

Overall, heres the calendar references: 

Morlocks #1: Feb 17 
Morlocks #2 pg1-pg12: Feb 18 
Morlocks #2 pg13-pg14: Feb 25 
Morlocks #2 pg15-pg22: April 13 
Morlocks #3: April 13 
Morlocks #4: April 13 

The majority of the references seem to indicate that this Sentinel program is a recent endeavor, and only Chicago and Detroit are mentioned as having Sentinel patrols. Perhaps this was a test run before going national? If so, it started the first week of February, give or take, and ended on April 13, lasting about two months. This would make the intro blurb part hyperbole, and part recent staus quo. 

Theres a reference in New X-Men 114 to the big mutant witch hunts a few months back. Could this be a reference to this series?(yes, I know this series was published after New X-Men 114, but maybe this was written to fill that reference?) Well 

Paul Bs Calendar currently has X-Men 113 ending on February 6, and New X-Men 114 starting on May 10.(Year 21) That just happens to encompass the calendar references seen in this series 

Could Cyclops comment about a few months back be a reference to when the witch hunts started, instead of ended? Im comfortable with that.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Feb 2006 07:10 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just an observation...calendar placement as suggested by Col_Fury would mean that MORLOCKS wraps up the same night that Washington is nuked by Kang in A3 49. The following day, the U.S. surrenders to Kang. If having the Sentinel program up and running during Kang's occupation is a problem, then we just dodge it.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Feb 2006 02:51 pm    
By Col_Fury

Actually, that works out pretty nicely. 

April 9 
Another clue is the buildup of global military defense that must take time to implement (A3 46 notes that Frances fortifications took "weeks" to build), and the Sentinel program is reactivated, with the first flight of Sentinels to be ready "96 hours" after the end of this issue 

April 13 
The army launches the Sentinels against Kang ("96 hours"  four days  after A3 45), who turns the Sentinels back against earth and destroys the space vessel carrying Cap and his assault team. 

We see green grass and trees in Washington DC, which is nuked by Kang 

April 14 
The United States surrenders to Kang 

Kangs global takeover must disrupt all aspects of daily life; its safe to assume that school is suspended, especially in large world cities 

In Morlocks, by 1:30 AM April 13, the Sentinels they're using in Chicago are getting run down, and the implication is that they're getting no new ordinance to repair the Sentinels they already have. If the government is using all available materials to fight Kang, that would be a very good reason not to give surplus supplies to a test run facility half a country away. 

Midday of April 13, Washington has been nuked by Kang, possibly another explanaiton as to why the Morlocks defeated these Sentinels so easily. 

After 7:40 PM but before midnight of April 13, the Morlocks have effectively destroyed the Chicago Sentinel program. 

The next day in Avengers, the government surrenders to Kang, which disrupts all aspects of daily life, and whatever programs cities may have concerning Sentinels patrols, especially if they had just been destroyed. 

Afterwards, there's no Sentinel activity.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 02 Feb 2006 10:32 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for DD2 #76-81
By Kevin W.
Director

Daredevil vol. 2 #76-81 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Well, its Bendiss last arc on this book. Chronology mess aside; this has been Bendis most enjoyable book, (except for maybe Alias) in my opinion. Bendis does keep his word with this final arc, (he said that when he first started this whole Daredevils identity is revealed mess back in 2001, that he would see it through to its logical conclusion): The storyline ends with Matt Murdock in jail. 

This is a VERY busy story arc, so Ive detailed everything as best I can. If anybody else has anything to contribute, (anything I overlooked) feel free to chime in. 

Daredevil vol. 2 #76 
The Murdock Papers Pt. 1 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Foggy Nelson 
Kingpin, (Wilson Fisk) 
Milla Donovan 
Ben Urich 

Synopsis: All events in this issue happen on the same day. 

Our story starts with Ben Urich visiting the Kingpin in a federal prison, (with the FBI monitoring them just outside Fisks jail cell). The Kingpin has requested Ben personally to come and interview him. Fisk explains to Ben that hes cutting a deal with the FBI: Hell prove that Daredevil is Matt Murdock, in exchange for his own freedom. Hes requested Urichs presence so as to get the story in the newspapers, (that way he can make sure the FBI keeps their end of the deal). 

Back in NYC, Daredevil stops a bank robbery, and before he can swing away, he is amazed to see the people on the street clapping their hands in support of Daredevil. Matt heads back to his office, and Foggy Nelson hands Matt a copy of todays issue of The Pulse. The headline shows that Daredevil is the most popular superhero in NYC, and Matt and Foggy conclude that they have weathered the storm, and that the press is no longer interested in making Matts life a living hell. Just then, into the room walks Milla Donovan. Her and Matt are still divorced, and this is the first time theyve seen each other in some time, but Milla seems to be in a mood for reconciliation. 

Just then, Matts secretary says theres a phone call from Ben Urich, but Matt says, Not now. Take a message. Of course, Ben was calling to let him know about the Kingpin. 

Foggy leaves Matt and Milla and starts to head home. He stops by the newspaper stand and the latest headline for the Daily Bugle catches his eye: Daily Bugle Exclusive! Kingpin tells all! The truth about Murdock revealed! 

References: 

Pg. 1: There is a brief flashback on this page to the time Elektra stabbed Ben Urich, but this isnt new material shown. 

Pg. 16: The headline for todays issue of The Pulse has the following headlines: Our Exclusive Hero Poll. Who is the most popular hero in the city? DAREDEVIL!!! He cleaned the Kitchen and you love him for it. 

Theres also a smaller headline at the top of the paper, which reads, New Avengers or Faux Avengers? And its later confirmed that this is indeed after the New Avengers have gone public 

It seems somewhat unusual for the Pulse, (which is an offshoot of the Daily Bugle) to run a headline saying DD is the greatest hero in NYC, and then on the same day for the Daily Bugle to run a headline saying that Fisk will prove Matts Daredevil. I take it from the way it reads that the Bugle is a Special or Late edition published that evening, (otherwise, Foggy wouldve picked up that newspaper on the way into work that morning, not the issue of the Pulse). 

Daredevil vol. 2 #77 
The Murdock Papers Pt. 2 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Foggy Nelson 
Milla Donovan 
White Tiger II, (FBI Agent Del Toro) 
Elektra Natchios 
Maria Hill, (Director of SHIELD) 
Black Widow, (Natasha Romanov) 
And the Director of the FBI, (who never gets a name in this story arc). 


Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-6: The same day as last issue. At the FBI headquarters in Washington D.C., Agent Del Toro speaks to the Director of the FBI, asking if he really plans on cutting Fisk a deal and arresting Matt Murdock. The Director states that Fisk is forcing his hand by making this public with the media story, (and beyond that, he carries a grudge against Daredevil for interfering in police investigations). Del Toro says, I quit! and the Director says, Good thing. Because youre fired. 

Pgs. 7-22: The Next Day: 

Cut to Chicago: Elektra assassinates a businessman whos apparently crossed the Hand. She picks up a copy of todays paper on the way out the door. The headline is about Fisk and Murdock. 

Cut to the SHIELD Helicarrier: The Black Widow barges into Director Maria Hills office and says she wants to call in a favor, and have SHIELD get Murdock out of trouble. Director Hill explains shes not Nick Fury, and shes not going to stick her head into the FBIs business. 

Cut to a short time later in NYC. Foggy awakes from a drunken stupor in his house, to find Natasha has broken inside. Natasha asks where Matt is, and Foggy says he doesnt know. Natasha warns Foggy to get out of the country while he can, before they arrest him, but Foggy says hell wait for Matt. 

Cut to Matt and Milla, waking up in bed together at a hotel. Milla just wanted to talk to Matt last night, to catch up on things, but the spark was rekindled, and now theyre in bed together. Theyre busy professing their love for one another when Matt suddenly notices that Elektra is right outside their window 

References: 

Pg. 3: The Director of the FBI asks Agent Del Toro, How long have you been working Murdocks case? 

She replies, Nine months. Well, we first see Agent Del Toro in the DD2 56-60 story arc, (after the one year gap). She was already working the case at that point. I believe its reasonable to conclude she was assigned to the Murdock case some time during the one year gap. 

Pg. 11: Maria Hill states, Ms. Romanov, weve never met before today. And Director Hill also notes that Natasha should be working a SHIELD case out in the field, not in here pleading for her help. So I guess Director Hill didnt get to see Natasha at the end of the Secret War after all, (in Secret War #5, Hill says Tell Natasha Romanov she better find her way onto this shipright now!!! 

Pg. 17: Matt tells Milla, You came back out of the blue after not speaking to me for monthsThe last time Matt and Milla spoke to each other was in DD2 64, (the end of the Black Widow arc). So its been months since that issue. 

On another note, I do find it strange that the Director of the FBI never does get a name throughout this arc, (thus, I am forced to simply call him The Director of the FBI). But the more I think about it, I think its Bendiss way of having the figure be somewhat the personification of The Government closing in on Daredevil. 

Daredevil vol. 2 #78 
The Murdock Papers Pt. 3 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Kingpin, (Wilson Fisk) 
Ben Urich 
Foggy Nelson 
Milla Donovan 
White Tiger II, (FBI Agent Angela Del Toro) 
Elektra Natchios 
Black Widow, (Natasha Romanov) 
Iron Fist, (Daniel Rand) 
Power Man, (Luke Cage) 
The Owl, (Leland Owlsley) 
Bullseye 
And the Director of the FBI. 

Synopsis: Picks up right where we left off last issue. All events in this issue happen on the same day. 

Elektra bursts in and talks to Matt, telling Matt to turn on the TV. Matt urges Milla to run out of the room, (thinking Elektras going to attack Milla for some reason). Milla runs out of the room in a panic. Elektra finally gets Matt to turn on the TV, and so he finally catches word that the Kingpin is going to give evidence to the FBI. Matt and Elektra dash out the window, (with Matt in costume) while Milla stumbles back into the room and catches the news on TV. 

Meanwhile, Luke Cage and Iron Fist come and escort Foggy away from the law office, (which is swarming outside with reporters). 

Meanwhile, the Kingpin is meeting up with the Director of the FBI, (with Ben Urich beside Fisk, reluctantly getting the story). Fisk explains that the Murdock Papers, (the evidence Fisk has that proves Matt is Daredevil) is in a safe inside a law office for one of his old crony lawyers in New York City. The only two other people who know about the Murdock Papers are Elektra and Bullseye, (former assassins for the Kingpin). 

The press is having a field day with the story. The Owl is watching the story unfold from inside prison. 

On a rooftop in NYC, Matt and Elektra stumble across the Black Widow, (she has been looking for Matt). They decide to team up and get the Murdock Papers. A short time later, they run into Angela Del Toro, whos going after the Murdock Papers as well, before her ex-boss, (the Director of the FBI) can get them. Theyre all about to get to the lawyers office, when Bullseye arrives and attacks. 

References: 

Pg. 12: Foggy asks Iron Fist what he and Luke are doing there. Foggy says, I didnt even know you were still together. 

To which Iron Fist replies, Special Occasions. 

Luke, meanwhile, is addressing the crowd or reporters, and says, Im not talking about my personal life and Im not talking about the Avengers! 

So this would seem to indicate that this is after Luke has joined the New Avengers, and probably after the New Avengers have gone public, (if Luke is mentioning them to the press). 

Pg. 16: The Black Widow is warning Matt not to work with Elektra. She says, (in regards to Elektra), The ninja just took over the Hand and shes angling an angle on you!! 

This is news to Matt, who says, Shes running the Hand?!? 

So this is after the events of the Agent of SHIELD arc over in Wolverine, (which is where I believe Elektra ended up taking over the Hand). 

Pg. 18: The Owl is listening in prison to the news, when the reporter on TV says, with the Owl behind bars after a disastrous attempt to take the Kingpins place. And more recently, characters like the Jackal and Jigsaw all failing to fill the hole left by Fisk over two years ago 

The reference to the Owl is probably to when Daredevil kicked his butt back in DD2 41-45. But in truth, Owls probably been out of jail, and is now back in jail since the end of the Absorbing Man arc in MK Spider-man #18. 

The reference to Jigsaw is from DD2 61-64, and the reference to the Jackal is from the Daredevil vs. Punisher miniseries. 

Fisk being overthrown 2 years ago is at first glance a reference to DD2 50, (when Matt became the new Kingpin) but could also be a reference to when Fisk was attacked and left in a coma by Sammy Silke and the other henchmen back in DD2 26 and 27. 

Pg. 20: Matt introduces the new White Tiger to Elektra and the Black Widow, Shes a Federal Agent. 

To which Del Toro replies, Was. I was let go yesterday. 

So that puts the scene in DD2 77, pgs. 1-6 as happening yesterday. 

Daredevil vol. 2 #79 
The Murdock Papers Pt. 4 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Kingpin, (Wilson Fisk) 
Ben Urich 
White Tiger II, (FBI Agent Angela Del Toro) 
Elektra Natchios 
Black Widow, (Natasha Romanov) 
Paladin 
Bullseye 
And the Director of the FBI. 

Synopsis: Continues right where we left off last issue. All events happen on the same day. 

Bullseye attacks all of them. Matt knows that Del Toro is way out of her league, but she still wants to help fight Bullseye. Matt knocks her out and throws her off a roof and into a passing dump truck to be carried away from the scene. 

Matt then begs Natasha to go and get Milla, and to get her out of town. Natasha heads off, while Matt and Elektra battle Bullseye. The battle last the entire issue, with Bullseye getting hit by a bus, (thus ending the battle). Before Elektra and Matt can go get the Murdock Papers, a sniper in a helicopter off in the distance shoots him. Its Paladin, whom we learn is working for the FBI. 

Matt is near death, but is carried off by Elektra just as the FBI shows up on the street. At the meeting place between the Director of the FBI and the Kingpin, (just outside of NYC somewhere) the Kingpin suddenly reveals that there are no Murdock Papers. It was all a lie Fisk came up with years ago, to keep his men on their toes, (I guess he went around bragging that he could have Daredevil arrested anytime he wanted). The FBI Director is furious, but Fisk explains that the FBI now has the proof they want: If they can find and arrest Matt Murdock, theyll have proof he was interfering with an FBI raid, (the FBI are raiding the law office where the Murdock Papers supposedly were). The proof is in the bullet hole in Matts body. Fisk explains that the only logical place they couldve taken Matt to is to the Night Nurse. Fisk then explains that Ben Urich, (who is still standing beside Fisk) knows where the Night Nurses secret hospital for superheroes is located 

References: 

Bullseye is NOT in his costume here, (but he does have the bullseye symbol still tattooed or scarred onto his bald head). I believe that just like the Punisher, Bullseye wears his costume when he feels like it, (like in the current Punisher vs. Bullseye miniseries). 

Pg. 20: Paladin says, (after shooting Murdock): Am I off the hook with you and your FBI, Mr. Director? The Director says, Your record is clean. 

I believe Paladins last appearance prior to this was in the pages of the Hellions miniseries. Its interesting to note: Paladin seemed to be on pretty good terms with Nick Fury in that miniseries, yet here, hes basically being blackmailed into working for the FBI. 

Daredevil vol. 2 #80 
The Murdock Papers Pt. 5 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Kingpin, (Wilson Fisk) 
Ben Urich 
Foggy Nelson 
Elektra Natchios 
Black Widow, (Natasha Romanov) 
Milla Donovan 
Luke Cage 
Iron Fist, (Daniel Rand) 
Jessica Jones 
The Owl, (Leland Owlsley) 
The Night Nurse 
And the Director of the FBI. 

Synopsis: Continues right from where we left off last issue. All events happen on the same day. 

Natasha goes and picks up Milla from where Matt and Elektra left her back at the hotel room. Milla convinces Natasha to take her to Matt. 

Foggy, Iron Fist, and Luke Cage arrive at Luke and Jessica Jones home in Harlem, where they hear on the news that Daredevil has been shot and killed. They immediately conclude they need to go to Night Nurses secret hospital for superheroes. 

At the Night Nurses facility, Elektra shows up with Matt, and the Night Nurse begins operating on him. 

The Director of the FBI switches from interrogating Fisk to threatening Ben Urich, and gets Ben to admit where the Night Nurses facility is. 

Elektra feels that Matt is going to die, so she calls up her ninjas in the Hand, to come and perform Dark Arts healing techniques on Matt. A short time later, Natasha and Milla show up, as do the ninjas. This is followed by the FBI showing up as well. Elektra buys her healers more time by ordering her ninjas to attack the FBI. Luke Cage and Iron Fist show up, and they start battling the ninjas. The healing spell performed by the ninjas work, and Matt is revived. Elektra and the Hand disappear, (at Matts request; hes tired of running) and the FBI arrests him. The issue ends with Matt in a jail cell awaiting his arraignment. 

References: 

Pg. 1: The news reporter on TV says, You may remember that last time Bullseye and Daredevil battled, it was actually on live TV, right here on 

Not quite sure what thats a reference to, but the last time Matt and Bullseye fought was in DD2 49, and that certainly wasnt on live TV... 

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are living together in an apartment in Harlem. Dont they live in Avengers Tower? I dont believe this was ever clearly established. Anyway, theres no sign of Jessicas baby, and its hard to tell if Jessicas pregnant or not, (she doesnt look right for some reason)Im thinking shes just put on a little weight after having the baby. But then, wheres the baby? Anybody else care to take a look at Jessica in this issue, and tell me if she looks pregnant to you guys or not? 

Pg. 24: There is a single panel showing the Owl on this page, (gloating on Murdocks fate, AND because he has a surprise up his sleeve, which we see next issue) so thats why hes listed in the appearances section up above. 

Daredevil vol. 2 #81 
The Murdock Papers Pt. 6 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Kingpin, (Wilson Fisk) 
Mr. Fantastic, (Reed Richards) 
Foggy Nelson 
Captain America, (Steve Rogers) 
Spider-Man, (Peter Parker) 
Luke Cage 
Jessica Jones 
The Owl, (Leland Owlsley) 
The Gladiator, (Melvin Potter) 
Hammerhead 
And the Director of the FBI. 

Synopsis: All events in this issue happen on the same day, probably a few days later, (or the next day) after the end of last issue. 

Matt Murdock appears in court for his arraignment, (with Foggy as his lawyer). Long story short: he is sent to Rykers Island without bail, to await his trial. 

Later that same afternoon, the Kingpin is walking out of prison to greet the press. He starts to tell the press about the deal hes struck with the FBI, (which will allow him to go free) but just then, the Director of the FBI and his agents pull up and re-arrest Fisk! The Director says they just received proof of Fisk murdering one of his henchmen for disobedience years ago, (where and when this occurred the story doesnt say). This proof is from a witness whos willing to testify against Fisk. 

We later learn that it was the Owl who has provided this proof to the FBI. Apparently the Owl didnt think it was right that the Kingpin got out of jail while he was still in it, so he turned snitch on Fisk. 

The issue ends with Matt Murdock sent to Rykers Island, as is Fisk. In other jail cells we see the Owl, the Gladiator, and Hammerhead. The Director of the FBI comments to the Warden, (as Matt is taken inside) that he hopes they all kill each other. 

The End. 

References: 

Pg. 16: When Foggy and the prosecutors are arguing over Matts bail, the prosecutor says that Matt is a huge flight risk. He says, (in regards to Matt), He has traveled to Japan seven times in as many years and owns property on the 

Id be interesting to see if that were true, (that he has made 7 trips to Japan in the last 7 years). 

Pg. 18: On this page, theres several panels showing other superheroes in attendance at the arraignment hearing. Among those in attendance, we see Steve Rogers, Reed Richards, Peter Parker, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. Also, if you look closely, youll spot what appears to be a wedding ring on Jessicas left hand, (on the finger the wedding ring is traditionally supposed to be on). So is this after theyre married? Theres not a clear shot of her belly, so I cant tell if shes pregnant or not. 

Also in appearance at the trial is the Director of the FBI, and Reed Richards. 

Thats it for now. Next up is DD: Father, I thinkand that should conclude all of the recent DD activity
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 09:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Kevin. Now I'm wondering (yet again) about the inconsistencies between Bendis titles. 

It seems pretty clear from this analysis that Matt Murdock must be incarcerated from DD2 80 on and that there's really no room for other appearances once DD2 76 starts. The timing of arraignments dictates that DD2 81 occur very soon after DD2 80. And the high flight risk suggests that Matt is in jail that whole brief time. And as noted, there's no bail following the arraignment. 

It seems pretty clear that PULSE 12-13 must occur after DD2 76 because of Urich's reference to the feds getting Matt and to the newspaper reference to the Murdock Papers. So how indeed would Daredevil show up in PULSE 13? An explanation of an imposter has been put forward. 

It seems fairly clear that the Other story arc in the Spidey titles occur after PULSE 13 because there's a non-pregnant Jessica in FNSM 3. But Daredevil appears in that same story arc, in FNSM 2. I'm thinking that there's a break in the Other story arc between FNSM 2 and M/KS-M 20 and that DD2 76-80 and PULSE 12-13 fit into that break. This would allow DD to appear early in the arc and the no-longer-pregnant Jessica to appear later in the arc. This would mean that Peter Parker has his impending death looming in front of him during his appearance in PULSE 12-13; that's not necessarily a big deal. In fact, it may take a while for Spidey to face his terminal illness and he might appear in other places in that same gap. It might also be a safe spot to put some post-A4 15 appearances by Spidey in his classic costume. 

ASM 525 occurs earlier in the Other story arc than does FNSM 2. Because the New Avengers fight a public battle in New York in ASM 525, then ASM 525 must occur after the Avengers go public in A4 15. 

So the chronology (not all-inclusive) may go... 

A4 11-15 
FNSM 1 
M/KS-M 19 
ASM 525 
FNSM 2 
DD2 76-81 
PULSE 12-13 
(maybe more stuff) 
M/KS-M 20 
ASM 526 
FNSM 3 
M/KS-M 21 
ASM 527 
FNSM 4 
ASM 528
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 29

Posted: 24 Dec 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: New call for analyses -- Future comics
By Paul Bourcier
Director

In the interest of getting a jump-start on story arcs that will not be done by the end of January, I offer the following call for analyses. 

Amazing Fantasy v3 #16/2-20/2 (Kevin) 
Ares #1-5 
Black Panther v4 #10-13 (Col_Fury) 
Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her #1-6 (Kevin) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (stevesacre79) 
Book of Lost Souls #1-3  canonical? 
Daredevil v2 #82-? (Kevin) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Doc Samson v2 #1-5 
FF Presents: Franklin Richards, Son of a Genius - Everybody Loves Franklin 
Fury: Peacemaker #1-6 (Col_Fury) 
Ghost Rider v4 #1-6 (JLH) 
I (Heart) Marvel: Marvel AI 
I (Heart) Marvel: Masked Intentions (JLH) 
I (Heart) Marvel: My Mutant Heart 
I (Heart) Marvel: Outlaw Love (JLH) 
I (Heart) Marvel: Web of Romance 
Incredible Hulk v3 #92-95 (Kevin) 
Nextwave #1-12 (Chris) 
Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1-6 (Russ) 
Punisher v7 #25-30 (Kevin) 
Punisher v7 #31-36 (Kevin) 
Punisher: Bloody Valentine (Col_Fury) 
Punisher vs. Bullseye #1-5 (Col_Fury) 
Runaways v2 #13 (JD) 
Runaways v2 #14-18 (JD) 
Sable & Fortune #1-6 
Sentinel v2 #1-5 (JD) 
Sentinel Squad O*N*E #1-5 
Spider-Woman: Origin #1-5 (Col_Fury) 
Storm v2 #1-6 
Underworld #1-5 
Wolverine v3 #36-40 (Col_Fury) 
X-Men and Power Pack #1-4  non-canonical? 
X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #1-4 

We have volunteers for several of these, but I could use some takers for the others. Any help you have to offer would be greatly appreciated. 

Happy holidays to all!
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 05 Feb 2006 08:55 am; edited 7 times in total

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Posted: 24 Dec 2005 11:38 am    
By Jason Doty

Paul, X-Men:Kitty Pryde-Shadow and Flame has already concluded and I believe should be on your other list.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Dec 2005 01:12 pm    
By Col_Fury

A holiday themed Punisher one-shot? I might as well do Punisher: Bloody Valentine. Also, I'd be happy to do Fury: Peacemaker #1-6. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Happy holidays to all! 
<<<

Happy holidays to you too, sir!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 24 Dec 2005 02:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Punisher v7 #31-36  
<<<

You can keep me on Punisher MAX for the foreseeable future...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 25 Dec 2005 03:43 am    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Drax the Destroyer #1-4 (JLH) 
<<<

This'll end by next week. Unless, of course, it gets punted back some more. On a related note to it, what about the upcoming Annihilation crossover? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Romance Redux: Guys & Dolls #1 
<<<

I kinda doubt that's canon. It's just old Romance comics reworded for comedic value. 

Happy holidays to youse to, and... Look! Rudolph's nose isn't the only thing glowing red right now: 

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Posted: 25 Dec 2005 04:21 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Runaways v2 #13 
Runaways v2 #14-18 
<<<

You can put me on this series for the forseable future. 


Quote: 
>>>
Sentinel v2 #1-5 
<<<

I'll try doing this. 


Quote: 
>>>
X-Men and Power Pack #1-4 
<<<

Didn't we just declare this non-canon ? 


And happy holidays to all 

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Posted: 26 Dec 2005 05:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just edited the list. Moved Drax and Kitty out, eliminated the Romance comic, questioned the Power Pack mini, and added assignments. Thanks, guys. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Dec 2005 10:50 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
and added assignments. 
<<<

But... but... you missed Fury: Peacemaker #1-6 for me...  

As long as I'm doing Bloody Valentine, I might as well do Punisher vs. Bullseye #1-5. Why not, right?  

I'm pretty sure that Issue 3 of Book of Lost Souls came out, ending the arc, but I didn't pick that series up. Being an Icon book, I couldn't tell you if it's canon or not. Was Dream Police canon? That was an Icon Straczynski book, too...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 11:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
But... but... you missed Fury: Peacemaker #1-6 for me...  


Sorry 'bout that, Col. Consider yourself signed up for Peacemaker and Punisher vs. Bullseye. Thanks. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Dec 2005 11:46 pm    
By Col_Fury

I'd like to volunteer for Spider-Woman: Origin #1-5, please.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2005 11:25 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'd like to volunteer for Spider-Woman: Origin #1-5, please. 
<<<


You got it! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 02:37 pm    
By Chris McCarver

Since no one's picked it, and doubly since I'm a mark for Warren Ellis' work, anyone objecting to me doing analysis on NextWave?
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 05:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

No problem, Chris. Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 11:46 pm    
By stavesacre79

I'd love to tackle Books Of Doom 1-6. Should I start posting for what's already been published or wait until the series is finished?

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Posted: 08 Jan 2006 08:42 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That's up to you, stevesacre79. Most folks prefer to wait until an entire mini or story arc is completed because it gives them better perspective on character identities, chronologies, and plot lines (especially when there are flashbacks in later issues that weave into events of earlier issues). But whatever you decide, you have my thanks for volunterring. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Feb 2006 03:44 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Amazing Fantasy v3 #16-20  
<<<

The main story in these issues is set something like 100 years in the future. In other words, it's not canon for our purposes. 

However, each of these issues have a bonus story in the back, a couple of which are set in the regular Marvel universe, (the rest are set in the New Universe, or something like that). I'll volunteer to analyze the back up stories that are set in the regular Marvel-verse. 

Oh, and this series is cancelled as of Issue #20 as well.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Feb 2006 04:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

You got it! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Feb 2006 04:18 am    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I (Heart) Marvel: Masked Intentions 
I (Heart) Marvel: Outlaw Love 
<<<

I'll do these.

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Posted: 05 Feb 2006 06:20 am    
By jannepie

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
X-Men and Power Pack #1-4  non-canonical? 
<<<

Tom Brevoort told in his forum at Comixfan that the recent Gurihiru Power Pack minis, including this one, are out of continuity. 

He also doesn't think that the Franklin back-ups from the first recent Power Pack mini are in continuity.

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Thread 30

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 01:06 am    Post subject: Hulk: Destruction 1-4
By Col_Fury

Hulk: Destruction #1 
W: Peter David 
D: Jim Muniz 
Published: September, 2005 

Appearances: 
Gen. Thunderbolt Ross, Doc Samson(Leonard Samson), Mercy(Abigail Mercy Wright) in FB & BTS in present, Hulk(Bruce Banner), Abomination(Emil Blonsky). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Pentagon, now 
Ross is being briefed on the possibility of the Abomination working for the US government. Ross isnt thrilled at the idea. 
Pg4: FB 
Ross interviews Blonsky. 
Pg5-pg6: Pentagon, now 
More talk of the Abomination, and how Blonsky eventually got the job Ross wanted, making Blonsky Ross boss. 
Pg7-pg12: FB 
Now Ross boss, Blonsky has Mercy bring in Doc Samson. They pass some creatures mutated by gamma radiation, then they discuss and how to capture the Hulk. Ross calls on Blonsky to tell him that the Hulk is on a rampage in town. 
Pg13: Pentagon, now 
Ross talks about Samson, and the differences between Hulk and Abomination. 
Pg14-pg18: FB 
Doc Samson fights the Hulk while Ross and Blonsky watch. 
Pg19-pg22: Pentagon, now 
Doc Samson arrives and chats with Ross. They pass a janitor and go into Abominations cell to start the session. 

References: 
Ignoring the FlashBacks, pg1-pg13 is during the daytime, and pg19-pg22 are at night. On pg20, Ross mentions that its the weekend. Most likely, pg1-pg13 are on a Friday, because government staff are holding meetings, and the power is turned down on weekends.(thats why there are almost no lights on in the hallways when Samson arrives) 

Green grass and trees in Washington DC. 

The janitor is revealed later as Bruce Banner. 

Hulk: Destruction #2 
W: Peter David 
D: Jim Muniz 
Published: October, 2005 

Appearances: 
Hulk(Bruce Banner), Abomination(Emil Blonsky), Gen. Thunderbolt Ross, Doc Samson(Leonard Samson). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: Pentagon, now 
Samson begins the session. Abomination mentions that he married two different Nadias, then blames the Hulk for everything thats gone wrong in his life. 
Pg7-pg9: FB 
After a fight with the Hulk, Emil Blonsky picks up a canister containing gamma isotopes and is infused with gamma radiation. He seems fine, but his fingers are on fire. 
Pg10: Pentagon, now 
Ross and Abomination chat while Samson takes notes. 
Pg11-pg13: FB 
Abomination and Hulk fight, for the first time. 
Pg14: Pentagon, now 
Abomination calls Ross daughter a whore. 
Pg15-pg16: FB 
The fight continues from pg13. 
Pg17: Pentagon, now 
Ross and Abomination chat while Samson takes notes. 
Pg18-pg21pn4: FB 
The fight continued from pg16 ends. 
Pg21pn5(of 5)-pg22: Pentagon, now 
Abomination blames the Hulk again for everything wrong in his life, Ross laughs. 
Meanwhile, the janitor cleans up. 

References: 
All in one night, same night as last issues pg22. 

Dont forget, that janitor is really Bruce 

Hulk: Destruction #3 
W: Peter David 
D: Jim Muniz & James Raiz 
Published: November, 2005 

Appearances: 
Hulk(Bruce Banner), Abomination(Emil Blonsky), Gen. Thunderbolt Ross, Doc Samson(Leonard Samson), Mercy(Abigail Mercy Wright). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2pn5: Pentagon, now 
Ross and Samson recap whats been covered so far, then Mercy shows up. Only Abomination can see her, and Ross thinks hes crazy until Samson reminds him of who Mercy is/was. 
Pg2pn6(of 6)-pg5: FB 
Blonsky has been recently promoted when Mercy finds out she has cancer. She tried to resign, but Blonsky offers her an experimental treatment that may save her. 
Pg6-pg7: Pentagon, now 
Abomination talks to Mercy in front of a confused Ross and Samson. 
Pg8-pg11: FB 
Mercy has gone through the procedure at this point, and isnt happy with the results. Blonsky starts to emit radiation, calms down, and sends Mercy after the Hulk. 
Pg12-pg13: Pentagon, now 
More confusion about the name/word Mercy, and Ross is still convinced that Abomination is crazy. 
Pg14-pg20: FB 
Mercy fights the Hulk, assumes the form of what he fears most, and Hulk kills her. Blonsky isnt pleased about this. 
Pg21-pg22: Pentagon, now 
Abomination gets upset and frees himself.(because the power is being conserved, that made his restraints weaker) As Samson tries to hold him back, the janitor arrives and threatens Abomination. The janitor is really Bruce Banner! 

References: 
All in one night, same night as last issue. 

Hulk: Destruction #4 
W: Peter David 
D: Jim Muniz & James Raiz 
Published: December, 2005 

Appearances: 
Hulk(Bruce Banner), Abomination(Emil Blonsky), Gen. Thunderbolt Ross, Doc Samson(Leonard Samson), Mercy(Abigail Mercy Wright). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: Pentagon, now 
Hulk and Abomination fight while Samson gets Ross to safety. 
Pg5-pg9: FB 
Hulk and Abomination fight, most likely shortly after Mercy died in last issues FlashBack. 
Pg10-pg13: Pentagon, now 
Hulk and Abomination fight, and Abomination claims ignorance of Bruce sleeping with his second wife Nadia. 
Meanwhile, Mercy lets Samson see her, and she reveals leading Banner here. 
Pg14-pg16: FB 
Hulk and Abomination continue the fight from pg9. 
Pg17-pg20: Pentagon, now 
Hulk and Abomination continue the fight from pg13. Hulk subdues Abomination, but refuses to kill him and leaps away. 
Pg21-pg22: Pentagon, the next day 
Ross is told the Abomination will be dealt with. But really, hes been hired to work for the US government. Hes being sent to Korea 

References: 
Pg1-pg20 are all in one night, same night as last issue. 
Pg21-pg22 are the next day, less than 24 hours later. 

Government staff is present on pg21, so this is most likely a Monday. 

Full moon over Washington DC. 

Hulk: D 1 pg1-pg3, pg5-pg6, pg13: Friday 
Hulk: D 1 pg19-pg22: Sunday 
Hulk: D 2 pg1-pg6, pg10, pg14, pg17, pg21pn5-pg22: Sunday 
Hulk: D 3 pg1-pg2pn5, pg6-pg7, pg12-pg13, pg21-pg22: Sunday 
Hulk: D 4 pg1-pg4, pg10-pg13, pg17-pg20: Sunday 
Hulk: D 4 pg21-pg22: Monday 

Im not even going to touch the FlashBacks until I get my hands on some Essential Hulk volumes. My collection doesnt go quite that far back yet 

This was a lot more straightforward once I decided not to even think about placing the FlashBacks. The present day stuff is mostly talking heads, and then a fight. Its everything else thats tricky. 

Up next: Amazing Fantasy 15!
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"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 06 Feb 2006 07:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thank you, Col_Fury. I'll get this incorporated into the calendar today.
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Paul B.

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Thread 31

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 07:07 am    Post subject: Amazing Fantasy 15
By Col_Fury

Ten stories, most seem to be in the current day, some are in the past. Some are great, some are ho-hum, and one lucky story is terrible. 

Amazing Fantasy 15 
Mastermind Excello 
W: Greg Pak 
D: Takeshi Miyazawa 

Appearances: 
Mastermind Excello(Amadeus Cho), Agent Sexton, Hulk(Bruce Banner). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: Somewhere in the American southwest desert 
Amadeus talks with Agent Sexton on the phone after his house has burned down. She says that the enemy is responsible, not her organization. He hangs up and finds a coyote pup. 
Later that day in a diner, hes eating when a waitress notices the coyote in his jacket. He uses his superior mental skills to get out quickly, but hes attacked by a helicopter outside. They aim a rocket launcher at his, but he deflects their aim with his scooters rearview mirror. Sadly, they shoot the rocket at one of the restaurants patrons instead. Luckily, the patron turns out to be the Hulk and together they escape. They chat on top of a mesa, and the Hulk leaps away. Amadeus calls Agent Sexton back. 

References: 
All in one day. 

Bruce has a crew cut here, and rounded glasses. The Hulk refers to Banner in the third person. Thats about it. It seems to be in the present day, though. 

Amazing Fantasy 15/2 
Blackjack in Heavy on Action, Light on Plot 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Pete Woods 

Appearances: 
Ace, Jacquie, Grampa. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: London, night 
Case #714 
Ace and Jacquie, agents of GRAMPA, are fighting vampires, when Ace turns on a satellite in space with giant mirrors. They reflect a bean of sunlight onto London which fries all the vampires. Grampa calls from the headquarters to ask if they can turn it off, but Jacquie is working on her tan. 

References: 
All in one fun filled night. 

Green grass, bushes, and leaves in London. 

Amazing Fantasy 15/3 
the Man with the X-Ray Eyes 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Nick Dragotta 

Appearances: 
The Great Video(Paul Vance), Det. Bill Schumer, Det. Blake, Janie. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: One night 
Paul sets fire to his store the Great Wall of Video. He also accidentally sets fire to himself. 
Pg2-pg8: a hospital, ten days later 
He wakes up in the presence of two detectives, but his new X-Ray eyes make him think theyre skeleton people. This frightens him, so he sets him on fire with his eyeballs. Outside, he steals a motorcycle and goes home. He calls his girlfriend Janie, who tells him shes met someone else and theyre moving away.(she moves fast) Three hours later, Paul goes to Big Budget Video(whom he blames for his business going caput, which is why he set fire to it. He thought he could get some insurance money) with a camcorder strapped to his head, and attacks the manager. 

References: 
Pg1: one night 
Pg2-pg8: ten days later 

The guy on the motorcycle is wearing short sleeves and blue jeans. Green grass and leaves. 

Amazing Fantasy 15/4 
Blackjack in the Winning Hand 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Pete Woods 

Appearances: 
Ace, Jacquie, Terminus. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: Tokyo, day 
Case # 538 
Terminus is attacking Tokyo, but the local military is more frightened of Ace and Jacquie, agents of GRAMPA! They fool Terminus into surrendering with a fake Ultimate Nullifier. Back at headquarters, they also have fake Cosmic Cubes, Infinity Gauntlets, Holy Grails, Serpent Crowns 

References: 
All in one exciting day. 

This is case #538, so Im assuming it precedes Case #714. 

We find out that GRAMPA stands for Global Reaction Agency for Mysterious Paranormal Activity! 

Amazing Fantasy 15/5 
Monstro 
W: Robert Kirkman 
D: Khary Randolph 

Appearances: 
Monstro(Frank). John, their boss. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: New York 
New York firefighters Frank and John chat on their way to the stationhouse with doughnuts. When they arrive, theyre almost immediately called out to a fire. Once there, Frank climbs the side of the building to get inside.(hes really strong and impervious to fire, but he doesnt have wall-crawling powers. He just grips the wall really hard) He finds and rescues the guy who set the fire. John calls him Monstro, but he doesnt like the name, and doesnt want to be on the news. 
That night, Frank drinks himself silly while looking at a picture of his family. 

References: 
All in one day. 

People are wearing both long and short sleeves, so it's either spring or fall. 

Both Frank and John have been firefighting for over three years at this point. 

Amazing Fantasy 15/6 
Blackjack in You Say You Want an Evolution? 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Pete Woods 

Appearances: 
Ace, Jacquie, Grampa, King Simian. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: New York 
Case #803 
Dinosaur Ace and Jacquie fight the human King Sapien and his Primateers. King Sapien plans to use his time machine to alter the historical course of evolution, so that simians are the higher life form. But before he can use it, Ace shoots the machine. 
After an explosion, human Ace and Jacquie arrest an ape King Simian, whos upset that his plan didnt work. They drop him and his Primateers off at the Bronx Zoo. 

References: 
All in one day, unless you count altered realities which followed the exact same course of events, but everyone was a different species. If it matters: 

Pg1-pg2pn3: Dinosaur world 
Pg2pn4-pg2pn6(of 6): Real world 

We find out that in the Dinosaur world GRAMPA stood for Global Reaction Agency for Mammal/Primate Affairs! 

Green leaves at the Bronx Zoo. 

Amazing Fantasy 15/7 
Heartbreak Kid! 
W: Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa 
D: Jeff Parker 
I: Sal Buscema! 

Appearances: 
Peter Parker(Spider-Man), Flash Thompson, Liz Allan, Harry Osborn, Heartbreak Kid(Danny Shepard), May Parker in FB, Ben Parker BTS in FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7pn2: Monday, Midtown High 
Its Peters first day at school since his Uncle Ben was killed over the weekend. Hes approached by Danny(who eats negative emotions) in the cafeteria who offers to takes his feelings of remorse away. Peter is disgusted by the idea. 
Pg7pn3-pg7pn4: FB 
Shortly after Bens funeral, Aunt May gives Peter some advice at Bens grave. 
Pg7pn5(of 5)-pg8: Midtown High 
Peter runs off, Dannys confused so he leaves. 

References: 
This all takes place between pages of Amazing Fantasy 15(the first one). 

It's nice to see that Sal is still keeping busy. I've always liked his stuff. 

Amazing Fantasy 15/8 
Blackjack in Happy Ending 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Pete Woods 

Appearances: 
Ace, Jacquie, Robots From Space! 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: Somewhere classified 
Case #999 
Robots from space are spreading love and happiness, FOR FREE!, when agents of GRAMPA Ace and Jacquie arrive and blow it to bits with a rocket launcher. Everyone is understandably upset, and when asked why, they respond: 
Jacquie: to advance, man needs to be discontent. 
Ace: Through adversity and hardship is how mankind thrives! 
The End. 

References: 
All in one day. 

Green grass, bushes, and leaves wherever it is they are. Also, partly cloudy. 

Amazing Fantasy 15/9 
Positron 
W: Sean McKeever 
D: Kristian Donaldson 

Appearances: 
Positron(Annie), her dad, Jackson Clarke. 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg8: Atlanta, night 
Annie and Jackson are having fun when her scientist dad and his goons show up in weird flying vehicles. Annie turns into Positron and starts a fight, but Jackson puts an inhibitor disc on her, which knocks her out. Her dad comes out and retrieves her, but Jackson gives the money back that her dad paid him to bring her to him. 

References: 
All in one night. 

Amazing Fantasy 15/10 
I Was the Guy in Spider-Mans Armpit! 
W: Dan Slott 
D: Patrick Scherberger 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Steve, Stan. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: One day in New York City, years ago 
Steve is on the phone with Stan, when Steve falls out the window. Hes caught by Spider-Man, and re-enacts the cover of Amazing Fantasy 15, complete with dialogue! 
Though the world may mock Peter parker, the timid teenager it will soon marvel at the awesome might of Spider-Man! 
Luckily for Spider-Man, Steve is too busy screaming, which covers up the words Peter Parker in Spider-Mans speech balloon. 
Spider-Man sets Steve down on the sidewalk, whos still too busy screaming to answer Spider-Mans question: You didnt hear that thing I just said, right? You know? About how the world may mock yadda yadda yadda? To calm him down, Spider-Man gives Steve two tickets to his big show at the Ed Sullivan theater tonight, and swings off. 

References: 
In between pages of Amazing Fantasy 15! The first one! 

Global Reaction Agency for Mysterious Paranormal Activity

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Posted: 06 Feb 2006 01:12 pm    
By rhod

Funny, I just read an old issue (of excalibur) where someone asked Stan Lee on the Bullpen Bulletins page who the guy on the AF15 cover was. (Stan Lee didn't know). 
Now we know!

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Thread 32

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 04:42 pm    Post subject: Livewires #1-6
By Somebody

"If I'd known then what I know now," I wouldn't have undertaken this. I've probably made a mountain out of a molehill, but how exactly one, essentially, self-contained mini could take so much effort is beyond me... 

Anyway. 

LIVEWIRES #1-6 
By Adam Warren and Rick Mays 

As I said, the present-day sequences are self-contained, and AFAIK could go essentially anywhere. 

Fury 
==== 

LW2, pg19-pg21pa1 (FB) (characters watching this scene are noted in the appropriate "Present-Day" slot) 

Characters: Nick Fury, various unidentifiable SHIELD agents. 
Location: SHIELD Helicarrier. 
Timing: Some years ago, probably before Project Livewire got going. 

A flashback/video of an assassination attempt on Nick Fury by HYDRA, who spiked the whole run of a microbeer Fury liked with "a stealthed smartfluid agent, designed to attack on absolute confirmation of identity." However, they actually got an LMD, with the real Fury watching in a hazsuit. 

I can't honestly see a specific place to put this fb in Fury's chronology, although I'm not 100% sure of his history. He's head of SHIELD, it takes place in a bar on a Helicarrier, the LMD wears a suit, HYDRA's a problem as the assassination attempt shows, and he claps an agent named "Jenkins" (not the same as David Jenkins from the LW-origin flashbacks) on the shoulder. Nothing which really narrows it down as far as I can see - all very generic. 

LW creation 
=========== 

Six months+ before the present-day sequences. 

LW3, pg15p3-15p5 (FB) 

Characters: David Jenkins, various unnamed techs, unnamed "suit" 

Several Livewires are being constructed in tanks, while David Jenkins explains their design functions to his superior. 

LW3, pg16pa1-16pa2 (FB) 

Characters: David Jenkins, Social Butterfly, unnamed techs, various unnamed "suits" 

(LW6, pg20pa2 repeats LW3 pg16pa2 - with different dialogue, albeit to the same effect. Could be the same scene or a different one) 

David Jenkins, when asked to explain why they won't go rogue (as Social Butterfly stands, saying "Hi"), explains that their main, primary directive is loyalty to PL's goals, as desired, and all other directives are tertiary and flexible. 

LW3, pg16pa3 (FB) 

Characters: David Jenkins, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, Gothic Lolita, Homebrew, two unnamed Livewires, unnamed tech, 

The original six LWs, naked (Stem Cell, watching this as a video of sorts, asks if there's some reason they're anatomically complete) walk across as Jenkins is told by his immediate superior (who appears throughout the LW3 flashbacks, but is never named) that they'll probably approve a full production run once testing is complete. Lolita (pre-Goth), Social and Ninja are all recognisable, as is one named in issue 6 as Homebrew. The other two aren't named. 

LW3, pg17pa1-2 (FB) 

Characters: David Jenkins, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, unnamed "suit" 

Shots of Ninja and Lolita training in. 

LW3, pg17pa3 (FB) 

Characters: David Jenkins, Social Butterfly 

Jenkins & Social on a "date" 

LW3, pg17pa4 (FB) 

Characters: David Jenkins, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, Gothic Lolita, Homebrew, two unnamed Livewires 

Jenkins laments to the original six LWs (in green "camouflage" T-shirts) that they're inextricably dedicated to a dubious cause. 

LW4, pg8pa5-pa8 (FB) 

Characters: David Jenkins, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, Gothic Lolita 

Jenkins explains that, while it'd scare the "suits", he understands that they need to mod themselves, and as long as they don't mess with their loyalty program, everything else is open to tinkering, "wink, wink." 

LW5, pg21 (FB) 

Characters: David Jenkins, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, Gothic Lolita (other LWs just-off camera) 

Jenkins walks across a firing range in front of the LWs as they shoot at cardboard targets, explaining that, despite the "suits'" obsession with making sure they won't go rogue, they'd have to disobey their lesser directives. And that there's another glaring flaw with programming someone for loyalty, but the suits haven't noticed it yet... 

LW2, pg1 (FB) 

Characters: David Jenkins 

Placed here in light of LW3, pg16pa3 (FB), and the fact that all the other prior flashbacks include tests. 

We see a Livewire, at this point only a "naked" head, torso skeleton and upper arm bones in a tank, and an active LW (off-panel, nothing specific to indicate who) asks who it is and David Jenkins, the LW designer (not named here, surname and function given for the first time in #3, full name in #4) tells them it's their new sister (NB: in panel 3, another tank is to the left with a LW in an indeterminate state of construction). The strong implication is that it's Stem Cell. 

LW6, pg6pa1-2 

Characters: David Jenkins 

Amongst a burning mess, Jenkins reflects that they'll run out of team members before targets, so they're all destined for annihilation. 

LW6, pg21pa2-pg22 

Characters: David Jenkins, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, Gothic Lolita, Homebrew (over link), two unnamed Livewires 

Amongst the burning wreckage of Project Livewire, destroyed by the Livewires themselves, Jenkins reflects that ONLY the programmed-for-loyalty constructs could be trusted - and that he himself defined their goals differently from how the suits would like, setting them on their fellow covert research programs, since they deserved it. And the revised objectives mean the Project Livewire humans have to die. Before Social crushes his head, he asks that his glasses be given to one of their yet-to-be-activated Stem Cells. 


Present 
======= 

Livewires #1 (present-day segments): "See these eyes so red" 

Takes place at night over approximately the length of time it would take you to read the issue. In panel 1, there's a moon behind the cloud, but impossible to tell the phase (probably more than half though from the brightness). The issue is chronologically continuous, with no flashbacks or breaks. 

LW1, pg1-22 

(LW6, pg6pa3 repeats LW1, pg4pa5 - with the error that Cornfed is shown munching an ear, whereas in LW1 he'd finished the ears and was eating the forehead) 

Characters: Stem Cell, Cornfed, Social Butterfly, Gothic Lolita, Hollowpoint Ninja (plus Homebrew's corpse, if that counts) 

Stem Cell (who gets her name only on the last page) wakes up in the back of a Humvee not knowing who she is. Cornfed is in the front seat eating something, which we shortly find out is Homebrew's corpse. He reassures her that she's dreaming, and not to use the "r-word" (robot). He asks her to identify the gadget in the seat beside her, which she does without thinking, noting that it's burnt out, then asks how she knew that. Cornfed tells her not to question the dream logic, and proceeds to steer the car around lots of scattered humans walking calmly away from a burning building while "still seeing nothing unusual." 

We're introduced to the "unforgivably touchy-feely and physically demonstrative" Social Butterfly, who's brainwashing all the humans not to work in R&D again and to walk away unobservantly. She grabs SC and jumps up, grabbing the wall around the fifth story. Something cuts the wall away from under them, and they fall inward to see a "pyromecha", a giant four-armed [strike]robot[/strike] mecha, which appears to be on fire - Social explains that it's not, just running really hot as she leaps about trying to avoid it until it fries her legs - wherein Gothic Lolita enters and casually catches it's arm just before it crushes Social. 

Social explains that Lolita is super-strong and super-tough, and enjoys the contrast of being the team's "Ben Grimm in black babydoll lace", while Lolita rips the mecha apart with "Loves me"/"Loves me not"ing. Lolita then grabs SC and pulls her down the elevator shaft while riding the now-limbless pyromecha, during which fall she finishes explaining what Social started - that they're a "top-secret, quasi-governmental project" which targets and destroys other, similar programs and destroys them. This specific one, the pyromecha, is based on a now-weaponised sample of the original, android, Human Torch's thermogenic cells. She also notes that they "prefer to terminate these programs before their experimental research runs amuck." 

Hollowpoint Ninja then runs in at super-speed and grabs SC a second before Lolita gets slammed by a pyromecha. As Ninja notes that Lolita will be fine, and SC develops an instant crush on him, he explains that the "pyronanos" are on the verge of building a volcanic cannon to launch their swarms far and wide and they're running out of time to stop them. SC recognises his exotic weaponry, asks why and explains that she's a robot, they installed Homebrew's engineering database into her before booting her up. She proceeds to vomit up a functional version of the component from the Humvee, and Ninja plugs it into his gun, explains the "stem cell" name (all newbies got lumbered with it), and welcomes the crying Stem Cell "aboard Project Livewire - Teammate." 

LW2, pg4pa2 (FB) 

Characters: Stem Cell, Gothic Lolita, Hollowpoint Ninja 
Timing: Very shortly after LW1, pg22 

After Ninja uses the part SC puked up to get one of his guns working, he uses it to cause the pyromecha to overheat, and him, SC and Lolita flee the ensuing fireball. 

Livewires #2 (present-day segments): "Clockwork Thugs, Yo" 

Begins a few minutes after the close of last issue 

LW2, pg2-4pa1, pg4pa3-pa5 

(LW6, pg6pa4 repeats the dialogue from LW2, pg6pa4 - not a typo, they ARE both pg6pa4 - but Social's facial expression matches LW2, pg6pa5. Could be written off as an error, or could nominally slot between panels) 

Characters: Stem Cell, Cornfed, Social Butterfly, Gothic Lolita, Hollowpoint Ninja 

The Humvee, with all five LWs, races away from the explosion of last issue's factory. 

Stem Cell thinks about how the part she puked up last issue was used in the weapon to "trigger runaway heating among the pyromecha" 

Lolita (T-shirt fully on and putting an ankh necklace on, driving with her feet) says how lucky SC is to have been "treated to the prettiest of firestorms on your very first op." We cut to the back of the Hummer, as SC muses that there are worse things than having a stupid name... 

[Midnight break could be here (my favoured point), between p6 and p7, or you could assume that LW1 starts in the early hours of the morning in which case there's no midnight break.] 

LW2, p4p6-p6 

Characters: Stem Cell, Cornfed, Social Butterfly, Gothic Lolita, Hollowpoint Ninja (plus Homebrew's corpse, if that counts) 
Timing: Hour or two after the last panel of the previous scene 

(Cut to Homebrew's remains with a firing pin and finger in the fg) ...she could be dead. It's Ninja's finger on the firing pin, and he drops the plasma grenade (with magnetic field-damping activated to limit the blast radius), and they thus dispose of Homebrew's hard drive extra-thoroughly. Social cheerfully mentions to SC that the one teensy drawback of their work is that they tend to get killed - and her face droops as she says they started with ten (including SC). Still, she again-cheerfully consoles her - better than being stuck with boring work. 

LW2, pg7-8pa4 

Characters: Stem Cell, Social Butterfly 
Timing: Next Day, with slight streaks of cloud across a clear sky. 

Social and SC are shopping, and SC asks Social to explain again, as, from Social's POV, we see her scan SC's voice pattern, pupil dilation, etc, and e-mails her analysis to the other LWs with the note that they are "soooooo not making a good impression on her [...] good thing she'd programmed for loyalty like the rest of us or we'd be screwed, while listening to music and various other things. Social reassured SC that "we ain't just clockwork thugs, yo", and they don't just blow stuff up, and that the next mission's just intimidation ("It'll be fun!"), although they'll still "have to blow stuff up a little, though." 

LW2, pg8pa5-pg11 

Characters: Stem Cell, Hollowpoint Ninja 
Timing: Later the same day, still daytime. 

SC and Ninja are beginning the next mission - Ninja's got a prototype energy weapon disguised as a leafblower. Ninja jumps up into a tree, grabbing SC. SC sets up the weapon, and Ninja blows up two of the three McMansions (of AIM defectors to the "semi-legit" Project Lamplight), and scores the third with completely unsubtle threats signed "from your friends at the REAL A.I.M." (supposedly an actual AIM splinter group). As Ninja jumps down with SC in tow, he notes that they prefer intimidation, since they're not supposed to kill targeted humans "unless absolutely necessary - note gaping size of loophole") 

LW2, pg12-16 

(LW6, pg6pa5 repeats the dialogue from LW2, pg14pa5-6 and the scene from LW2, pg14pa6. Ignore) 

Characters: Stem Cell, Cornfed, Social Butterfly, Gothic Lolita, Hollowpoint Ninja 
Timing: Night, just after sunset from the colours. Cloudy. 

SC says that some other quasi-governmental (etc) project is flying out "an experimental power source for some new mecha... a "Sentinel," I think it's called." (Ninja's sitting crosslegged, broodily, on top of the hummer, Social's lying front-down on the bonnet, head propped up on her hands, smiling, Cornfed's standing and looking broody and SC's leaning back against the front of the car) And that "Gothic Lolita went out to quote "catch a plane". As she wonders how that's supposed to work - can a 400-pound combat mecha just stroll through airport security, Lolita breaks in on her thoughts to say that's theoretically possible, but that's not what she's doing. As Lolita informs her that she's been broadcasting her thoughts to the others all day, and needs to change her settings to avoid this, SC is suitably mortified as the others quote her descriptions of them from earlier on. Meanwhile, Lolita literally caught the plane by jumping 100+ feet and grabbing hold of it's underside with her skeleton's multiple EM adhesion points. 

Lolita then explains, in response to SC's questioning while smashing plane engines, that no she's not quite invulnerable, and yes she's a bit scared - even if it's nearly certain she doesn't want to die - but she can damp down her human-copy emotions so that she can still function ([small]"Emotional detachment is my friend"[/small]). As the aircraft ditches, the crew will probably bail out, but she and the cargo have an appointment with the sea floor. "Gothic Lolita ending transmission." 

LW2, pg17-pg21pa2 (includes FB scene being watched noted above) 

Characters: Stem Cell, Cornfed, Social Butterfly. Hollowpoint Ninja and Gothic Lolita are BTS. 
Timing: Shortly after the end of the previous scene 

SC's annoyed by the other LWs' seeming nonchalance, so Cornfed yanks her into his mind for a history lesson, showing her a 3D "picture" of the Mannites, "Ancestor Number one", (Social pops in to slag off the Mannites). Cornfed, noting that while Mannites' powers were handy their appearances made them useless for covert work, & SC go through an "Exit" door, to a flashback/video of an assassination attempt on Nick Fury by HYDRA. And it's LMDs that are their other ancestor. 

See above for Fury analysis. 

LW2, p21p3-p22 

Characters: Stem Cell, Cornfed, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, Gothic Lolita 
Timing: Continuing straight from the previous panel, back to the real world, but time has passed while they've been in flashback-land. 

All four LWs are on the beach, watching the recovery of the jet's crew as Social overhears a broadcast saying there's "No civvie collateral damage: Bonus!". Then Lolita finally makes it up after smashing the power source to bits and a "grindingly tedious" hike up the continental shelf. She tosses the anti-matter containment vessel she thought best not to smash to SC and offers her a starfish. SC thinks they're insane... then realises they can still hear her thoughts. "Oops"  

Livewires #3 (present-day segments): "Mammalian Verisimilitude" 

Night, over an hour or so, moon not visible. No direct cues on how long between #2 & #3, but it's not more than a couple of days. 

LW3, pg1-12 

Characters: Cornfed, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, <Techguy> 

Cornfed's standing on top of a suspension bridge in the pouring rain, transmitting to Social & Ninja while simultaneously hacking their target's computers for info on how Social should present herself, and she promptly morphs herself slightly to fit. 

Ninja's looking for security for the tech guy, but thinks he's missing a possible stealthed sniper. 

Social proceeds to flirt and pheremonise the techguy into submission, scanning his retinas, handprint and DNA and sending the results to Cornfed, while preparing to get his passwords out of him 

Ninja gets Cornfed to sort through everything he can smell, before getting him to focus on the inorganics, and detects exotic lubricants. He tracks the source down and barely beats the mecha he finds, who should be out of his league. He spots a receptiveness to his style and beats him anyway. 

Cornfed, while installing a "cybotage" virus into the system he's hacked with Social's help, finds the program has a link to the "white whale," their no. 1 target. 

Before leaving, Cornfed wipes the traces of his hacking, Social mindwipes the techguy and Ninja edits the memories of the other mecha. The three meet up in a park afterward, rain still pouring. 

LW3, pg13-pg15pa2 

Characters: Gothic Lolita, Stem Cell 

Lolita drowns Stem Cell in a bathtub. Being mecha, they don't really need to breathe except for camouflage, and their lungs are just to get rid of heat. Because SC's still stuck in human-emulation mode, she still feels like she's drowning though. 

Lolita then sends SC on a walkthrough of their early history at PL, before their first mission over SC's protests. 

LW3, pg15p3-17 

SC on the walkthrough, making sarcky comments. 

LW3, pg18pa1 

Back in the real world, SC asks if she can start breathing again 

LW3, pg18pa2-pg20pa5 

Characters: Gothic Lolita, Stem Cell, Cornfed, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja. 

The LW's Humvee pulls up in front of their rented safehouse (#4). SC's shivering, and asks if she has a switch in her head to turn off her "faux-human wimpiness," and Lolita says it's not that simple as the other three rush in (Social has her face off. Literally). 

When Social has SC confused enough, Ninja and Cornfed explain that "White Whale" is a joke name and they don't know the real codename, and that it's "Ultra high-security. mobile. Airborne. Enormous. Challenging." And that they don't have a choice - with little to no intel, they have to go on what may well be a suicide mission. Social laments that they might not see the results of their cybotage (cue-flash-forward, placed after the rest of the series). 

Livewires #4 (present-day segments): "Fingers: Crossed" 

Takes place the night after #3, with a dark blue sky, but no moon shown, over a couple of hours. 

LW4, pg1-pg8pa4, pg9-22 

Characters: Gothic Lolita, Stem Cell, Cornfed, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, anonymous AIM agents (classic yellow beehive suits), "White Whale"/Nickfurybots (never properly named hivemind) 

The LWs sneak into a tanker of nanofluid AIM are delivering to the "White whale," which SC has to reprogram to hide them within the 27 minutes it will take the tanker to reach the drop-off point. 

At the pickup point, an AIM agent is moaning about his ventilation unit having packed up, and is promptly ordered to keep it on. A giant, vaguely abstract mecha picks up the tank and rockets into the sky. SC, having done part 1 right, tries to finish the nanofluid's combat reprogramming and asks Social to stop playing with the improvised anti-matter grenade, made from the containment unit from the end of #2, and says they can tell her how to turn off her emotions any time. Lolita tells her it's a physical hack she has to do herself (cue flashback to pre-LW1) and describes it as "messy", while SC thinks it's "sick" when she gets the instructions. 

They approach the "White Whale" - housed aboard the "covertly rebuilt frame of one of five known wrecked S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarriers" (Cornfed notes that there are two sunk in the waters off NYC alone, and that the private contractors hired to clean up SHIELD's "frequent messes" don't dispose of the hardware the way they're supposed to). SC freaks out on seeing the Helicarrier, and Lolita reminds her to finish the reprogramming. Ninja notes the fact that the program had to order nanofluid from AIM means they must have some chance, "however miniscule. Fingers: Crossed." 

The mecha sets the tank down in the Helicarrier's cargo area, and they're detected by the superior scanners onboard, but with Ninja's help SC finishes turning the nanofluid into suits of powered armour for them to rip the "welcoming party" apart with. As they congratulate SC, one of their victims tells them they have backups, and revert the armour to nanofluid, while more giant, only vaguely humanoid, mecha turn up preparing to take them apart. 

In the resulting fight, Lolita shields SC and is durable enough to withstand the shots, but Cornfed's arm is blown off. Telling the others to "disengage and disperse into the Helicarrier interior," he subverts one of the enemy mecha and gives them some cover fire, while saying it was an honour to have served with them. Shortly after they escape, their enemy uses the big railgun from the base of the helicarrier to vapourise Cornfed's body and part of his head, effectively killing him. 

The enemy pick up the remains of his head, and note "familiar," LMD design elements. Their heads open up to reveal the faces of Nick Fury, and wonder if they're "related" 

Livewires #5 (present-day segments): "Gonna Get My Brute Force On" 

Characters: Gothic Lolita, Stem Cell, Social Butterfly, Hollowpoint Ninja, "White Whale"/Nickfurybots (never properly named hivemind). (Cornfed's severed head also appears throughout.) 

Continues from a point very shortly after the end of #4. 

LW5, pg1-20 

Lots of fighting. 

The first death is Lolita, who's grabbed by one of the giant mecha, after which both she and it are fired through the giant railgun at the ground at mach-four. She leaves the others with "some aesthetically pleasing images" of her last second or so, and says "goodbye", 

Immediately thereafter, the crying SC notices Social has a hole right through her after and Ninja have destroyed all the enemy mecha around them. Social's blas about it, until she rescans herself and notices serious structural damage. She proceeds to jump off and prepare to detonate the anti-matter grenade, but notices her hands fly off a moment before the rest of her is sliced to bits by mollywire. 

Ninja then stuffs SC in a fuel pipe, where there are fewer sensors, and kisses her goodbye, telling her to shut down her commlink transmission as he goes off to continue sniping until his ammo & luck run out. 

Livewires #6 (present-day segments): "Red Like Jungle Burning Bright" (includes last page of LW5) 

Characters: Stem Cell, Hollowpoint Ninja, "White Whale"/Nickfurybots (never properly named hivemind). (Cornfed and Social Butterfly's severed heads also appears throughout, while Gothic Lolita's corpse is recovered towards issue's end.) 

LW5, pg22; LW6, pg1-2 

SC cries in the fuel pipe, and realises she's going to have to hack herself the way Lolita told her. She levers out her left eye with a screwdriver, then sticks a maser-probe in her eye socket and uses it to blast off her inhibitor module, allowing her to customise her mental state. She smiles. 

LW6, pg3-4 

The Furybots have Ninja strung up on spikes, alive but missing both legs and his right arm, and reveal that they were created from data gathered in the botched Nick Fury assassination shown in flashback in issue 2. 

LW6, pg5-7 

SC plays with her attitude and flashes back to various scenes from the last five issues, plus a couple more David Jenkins scenes. Suddenly her eyes finally go red, and she has an idea - and sinks her teeth into her own arm, laughing maniacally. 

LW6, pg8-pg16-pg18pa2 

The Furybots reflect on the rumours of various "deniable, third-party" programs have gone under in the past "six months", and reflect that the Livewires probably had something to do with it ("Had. Past tense."), when SC starts broadcasting from in their midst, acting crazily. Ninja tells her to shut down before they find her, but the Furybots say it's too late - but suddenly a bunch of pyromecha, started by SC from her own smartware "skin", start destroying the Furybots and making more of themselves from the 'Carrier's own mass - and when the Furybots call her a "little robot bitch," Ninja tells them to "watch the r-word", and pulls out an energy knife and stabs the Furybot holding him and the heads of Social & Cornfed in the head and slashes with his remaining arm. 

SC greets Ninja, and they get to an engine as the Helicarrier explodes, and SC manages to land it near Lolita's impact crater, saying that "maybe" she can salvage her. 

LW6, pg18pa3-pg20pa1 

Next morning. SC drives the Humvee, towing a truck-back with salvaged stuff from the Helicarrier debris, and the remains of her teammates, although only the sleeping Ninja is certainly fixable, and she's "jacked her optimism up to near-delusional levels" to believe she can fix the others. She decides to head for Project Livewires' home base... 

LW6, pg20pa2-pa4 

(Later. It's still day, and the landscape is still the same sort of desert, but although it's probably later the same day, the narration flows smoothly and it could be any amount of time later) 

...where she finds only a crater in the desert. She demands Ninja wake up and tell her what happened. Cue flashback 

LW6, pg23 

Ninja tells her they hadn't highlighted those archive files because they thought that - as a typical, emotional, newly-activated Stem Cell - she'd have found their actions disturbing. Now, she brushes it off and tries to decide on her new name. 

The End. 

After 
===== 

LW3, pg20pa6-p22 

Characters: None named (including the techguy from earlier in #3) 

"Six days" after the rest of #3 

Since the LWs destroyed their power source in #2, they need to run the Sentinel prototype (pretty much a classic pink/purple giant Sentinel, with no changes that can't be simply artistic licence). When activated, it proceeds to rip itself to bits, saying how it doesn't trust each body part as it destroys it, setting the program back to square one. 

Chronologies 
============ 

Chronology list (treble asterisks denote appearance of corpse or severed head, not sure if they count or not; the kinda-sorta new flashbacks from LW6 are marked with .) 

STEM CELL 
LW 2-FB (p1) 
LW 1 
LW 2-FB (p4p2) 
LW 2 (p2-p6p5) 
LW 6-FB (p6p4) 
LW 2 (p6p6-p22) 
LW 3 
LW 4 
LW 5 
LW 6 

HOLLOWPOINT NINJA 
LW 3-FB 
LW 4-FB 
LW 5-FB 
LW 6-FB 
LW 1 
LW 2-FB (p4p2) 
LW 2 
LW 3 
LW 4 
LW 5 
LW 6 

SOCIAL BUTTERFLY 
LW 3-FB 
LW 4-FB 
LW 5-FB 
LW 6-FB 
LW 1 
LW 2 (p2-p6p5) 
LW 6-FB (p6p4) 
LW 2 (p6p6-p22) 
LW 3 
LW 4 
LW 5 
***LW 6 

GOTHIC LOLITA 
LW 3-FB 
LW 4-FB 
LW 5-FB 
LW 6-FB 
LW 1 
LW 2-FB 
LW 2 
LW 6-FB (p6p5) 
LW 2 
LW 6-FB (p5p2) 
LW 2 
LW 3 
LW 4 
LW 5 
***LW 6 

CORNFED 
LW 1 
LW 2 
LW 3 
LW 4 
***LW 5 
***LW 6 

JENKINS, DAVID 
LW 3-FB 
LW 4-FB 
LW 5-FB 
LW 2-FB 
LW 6-FB 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
[...] 
LW 2-FB 
[...] 

HOMEBREW 
LW 3-FB 
LW 6-FB 
***LW 1 
***LW 2 

And, for completeness, two unnamed Livewires appear in both LW 3-FB and LW 6-FB 

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 09:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Somebody!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Mutopia X #5
By Col_Fury

Mutopia X #5 
W: David Hine 
D: Lan Medina 
Published: January, 2006 

Appearances: 
Ismael Izzy Ortega, Armena Ortega, Esteban Ortega, Chaymara Ortega, Laline Ortega, Bishop(Lucas Bishop), Gregor Smerdyakov, Nancy, Mr. M(Absolom Mercator), Bugman, Lara the Illusionist(Lara King). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: FB 
Various story points from District X are recapped for us; none of it is new information. 
Pg2-pg3: a hospital 
A doctor operates on Chaymara, then tells Armena and Laline that shes been shot by an invisible bullet!(which she was, in HoM) 
Pg4-pg9: Mutant Town 
Izzy talks to Gregor the tree, and goes outside to find chaos in the streets. It seems as though all the mutants in Mutant Town have lost their powers. His ex-partner Nancy shows up, and they go to pick up Mr. M.(he healed Chaymara last time she was shot, Izzy hopes he can do it again) Luckily, Mr. M hasnt lost his powers. 
Pg10-pg13: a hospital 
They get to the hospital, but Chaymara has already died. Sadly, Mr. M cant raise the dead, and Armena tells Izzy to leave. Outside, Izzy tells Laline to make sure that Esteban never thinks Chamayras death is his fault. He then goes to Laras place, to find out that shes lost her powers as well. 
Pg14-pg17: sewers 
Next to Gregor,(who hasn't lost his powers) Bishop stops Izzy from killing himself. 
Pg18-pg19: Ortega residence 
Bishop takes Izzy to his family. 
Pg20-pg22: that night, Mutant Town 
Bishop thinks to himself. 
Pg20pn2(of 5): FB 
Izzy gives Bishop his gun. 

References: 
All in one day, which is the day after HoM. 

Full moon over Mutant Town. 

The FlashBack on pg20pn2 fits between pg17 & pg18.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 09:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Col_Fury. It's in the calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 09:17 am    Post subject: Runaways vol 2 #9-12
By JD

RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #9-12 
Writer : Brian K. Vaughan 
Penciller : Adrian Alphona 
Published from October 2005 to January 2006 

CAST : 
- The Runaways (Nico Minoru/Sister Grimm, Gertrude Yorkes/Arsenic 2, Molly Hayes/Bruiser, Chase Stein/Talkback, Victor Mancha/Victorious, Old Lace) 
- The New Avengers (Captain America/Steve Rogers, Iron Man/Tony Stark, Wolverine/Logan, Spider-Man/Peter Parker, Spider-Woman I/Jessica Drew, Luke Cage) 
- Cloak/Tyrone Johnson, Dagger/Tandy Bowen 
- Father Lantom, Pusher Man, Bo, Reginald Mantz 
- The New Pride : "Chamber" 2/the black boy, the witch girl, the fat guy, the other white guy 


RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #9 

pages 1-7 
Appearances : Cloak, Dagger, Reginald Mantz, Father Lantom, Captain America, Spider-Woman I, Luke Cage 
"New York City, 9:48 pm" 
Dagger lies comatose in an hospital bed after an aggression by an impostor Cloak (he "dropped her [in front of the hospital] last night"). Cloak comes to visit her, but is attacked by the New Avengers. He's hit on the head and suddenly remembers the Runaways. He teleports out to seek their help. 

pages 8-22 
Appearances : Nico Minoru, Gertrude Yorkes, Molly Hayes, Chase Stein, Victor Mancha, Old Lace, Cloak 
"Los Angeles, 6:48 pm" 
The Runaways are playing Monopoly in their hideout when Cloak suddenly appears, asks for their help, and teleports out with them. 

Notes : 
- It's winter in NYC, there is snow everywhere. 
- Cloak says : "Spider-Woman ? With Captain America ? So the rumors are true ? The Avengers are back ?". Since #12 establishes that this whole arc is post-HoM, we can only assume that Cloak is hopelessly behind on the news. 
- Cloak & Dagger met the Runaways in RUN #11-12. However, the Pride wiped out Cloak & Dagger's memories of this encounter. 
- The Runaways "haven't fought anyone in weeks". 
- "It's been a month since [Karolina's] last transmission." In RUN2 #8, Karolina left earth to deal with the mess left by her parents. She promised to send regular messages to the remaining Runaways. This line establishes that there's been at least one month since #8 (and probably several). 
- I'm not familiar with timezones in the US. Can these two scenes happen simultaneously ? Anyway, there are a few clues they do not : here, Cloak says he tracked the darkness from one of the Runaways to find their hideout. This does not sound instantaneous. 


RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #10 

pages 1-2 (flashback) : 
Appearances : Iron Man, Wolverine, Captain America-BTS 
"24 hours ago" 
Iron Man sees Wolverine and talks a bit with him (Cap asked for Logan's help). 

pages 3-22 : 
Appearances : Nico Minoru, Gertrude Yorkes, Molly Hayes, Chase Stein, Victor Mancha, Old Lace, Cloak, Father Lantom, She-Hulk (?), Pusher Man, Bo, Reginald Mantz, Captain America, Dagger, Spider-Man, Wolverine-BTS. 
"Now", continued directly from last issue 
Cloak and the Runaways arrive in NYC. They go to Father Lantom's church (he's offered sanctuary to C&D for the last few months). They have a look at the evidence against Cloak, and then split to investigate. Chase and Nico track down Pusher Man, the drug dealer that may have provided a drug able to duplicate Cloak's powers. However, they are disarmed by his sidekick Bo. Meanwhile, Captain America interrogates ... (one of the orderlies tending Dagger) and learns about a recent visit to her from Father Lantom. Meanwhile, Gert, Victor and Old Lace (disguised as a dog) follow the track from the glove left at the crime scene, and run into Spider-Man (who had implanted a tracer in the glove). 

flashback : pages 8-9 
Appearances : Dagger, Reginald Mantz 
A tape depicting Dagger beating up some drug dealers and being attacked by a Cloak lookalike. 


Notes : 
- Cloak says : "Before leaving for California, I teleported inside a NYPD storage locker to retrieve clues". One more hint that the two scenes from #9 happen on different days. 
- Chase and Nico walk past a big green woman in the street (Nico : "I think that was She-Hulk !"). We only see her back, though, so it's not 100% sure it's her. 
- Spider-Man mentions that he was just talking to Wolverine, so that's why BTS for him. 


RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #11 
Appearances : Nico Minoru, Gertrude Yorkes, Molly Hayes, Chase Stein, Victor Mancha, Old Lace, Cloak, Father Lantom, Pusher Man, Bo, Reginald Mantz, Dagger, Spider-Man, Captain America, Wolverine, Iron Man 

Directly continued from last issue. 
In the hospital, Dagger starts emitting light at Reginald Mantz. Meanwhile, Molly helps out at Father Lantom's church. Meanwhile, Gert and Victor go and eat some sushi with Spider-Man. Meanwhile, Nico and Chase bluff their way out from the Pusher Man by pretending they are working for the Pride and acting tough. They get the fake Cloak's name : Reginald Mantz. They go back to Gert and Victor and neutralise Spider-Man. Meanwhile, some of the New Avengers come to Father Lantom's church and start asking questions. 

Notes : 
- Cloak "has not slept since [Dagger] was attacked several days ago". One more hint to a full day passing between the two parts of #9... 
- Victor to Spider-Man : "So you really are with the Avengers now ?" 
- The Pusher Man to Nico and Chase : "tell us which super-powered Boy Scout troop you narcs are part of. The Young Avengers ? Or maybe those New Warrior cats from the TV ?" 


RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #12 
Appearances : Nico Minoru, Gertrude Yorkes, Molly Hayes, Chase Stein, Victor Mancha, Old Lace, Cloak, Father Lantom, Reginald Mantz, Dagger, Captain America, Wolverine, Iron Man, Luke Cage, Spider-Woman 
+ The New Pride ("Chamber" 2/the black guy, the witch girl, the fat guy, the other white guy) 

Continued directly from last issue. 
Molly beats up Wolverine. Meanwhile, Spider-Woman & Luke Cage fend off against the MGH-powered Reginald Mantz, but are thrown off a window. The other Runaways show up and beat him up by purging him of his drug. Cloak sends them back to LA. 
We are shown that they are monitored by the members of the New Pride. 

Notes : 
- Iron Man, apropos of Molly : "Oh, for the love of... Not more superkids". Sounds like another Young Avengers reference to me. 
- Wolverine, apropos of Molly : "Only 198 mutants left on this stinkin' planet, and that girl's gotta be one of 'em." Clear reference to Decimation, which puts this whole arc after House of M. 
- Luke Cage : "I got a kid. You wouldn't hurt a dad, wouldn't you ?" Can be taken as happening either before or after the kid's birth. 
- I've started noting the appearances from the New Pride kids, since their identities will obviously be revealed soon (probably in the next arc). For what it's worth, all four appeared in RUN2 #6. 


Global chronology : 

[YOUNG AVENGERS #1] 
RUN2 #1-6 
[one full month later] 
RUN2 #7-8 
[at least one month later, probably several ; HoM happens inbetween] 
RUN2 #10-FB2 (p8-9) : Dagger is attacked 
[off-panel : Mantz drops Dagger off at the hospital ; Spider-Man puts a tracer on the glove] 
[the next night] 
RUN2 #9 p1-7 : Cloak goes to see Dagger and is attacked by the NA 
[off-panel : he steals the glove from the evidence room] 
RUN2 #10-FB1 (p1-2) : Wolverine and Iron Man 
[the next night] 
RUN2 #9 p8-22 
RUN2 #10 p3-22 
RUN2 #11 
RUN2 #12 

Any thoughts ?

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 07:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, JD. 

I'm not sure about the passage of days in this arc. Is it something like this: 

Day One: 
RUNAWAYS v2 #10  FB (8-9) 

Day Two: 
RUNAWAYS v2 #9 (1-7) 

Day Four: 
RUNAWAYS v2 #10  FB (1-2) 

Day Five: 
RUNAWAYS v2 #9 (8-22) 
RUNAWAYS v2 #10 -- 24 hours after RUN2 10-FB (1-2) 
RUNAWAYS v2 #11 -- several days after RUN2 10-FB (8-9) 
RUNAWAYS v2 #12 


Or is it like this: 

Day One: 
RUNAWAYS v2 #10  FB (8-9) 

Day Two: 
RUNAWAYS v2 #9 (1-7) 
RUNAWAYS v2 #10  FB (1-2) 

Day Three: 
RUNAWAYS v2 #9 (8-22) 
RUNAWAYS v2 #10 -- 24 hours after RUN2 10-FB (1-2) 
RUNAWAYS v2 #11 -- NOT several days after RUN2 10-FB (8-9) 
RUNAWAYS v2 #12
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 08:38 am    
By JD

I'd say the second one. I'm not putting too much faith in the "several days" comment by Cloak, since he's really tired  
Anyway, "several" means "more than two", and I count about two days and a half in the second option (since it's probable that a good part of what is credited to Day Three actually crosses into Day Four's early hours).

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 02:13 am    
By JD

JD wrote: 
>>>
- Cloak says : "Spider-Woman ? With Captain America ? So the rumors are true ? The Avengers are back ?". Since #12 establishes that this whole arc is post-HoM, we can only assume that Cloak is hopelessly behind on the news. 
<<<

... or maybe not. We now know that A4 #11-15 is post-HoM ; we thus can put RUN2 #9-12 before it. 
I've had a further look at A4 #7, and Reed does not show an actual newspaper ; it is an online column with the speculative title "NEW Avengers ?". We could take it as an online rumor, so that Cloak's words make a bit more sense. 
Just post-HoM (and before A4 15), not that many heroes know of the New Avengers : the X-Men, the Fantastic Four, the other members of the Illuminati, and a few former Avengers who were contacted for HoM (Ms Marvel, She-Hulk, Wonder Man & Falcon). So it may just work.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 09:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So it may just work. 
<<<

Yes, it does. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 08 Feb 2006 01:54 am    Post subject: Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame 1-5
By Col_Fury

Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame #1 
Dragon Quest 
W: Akira Yoshida 
D: Paul Smith 
Published: August, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shadowcat(Kitty Pryde), Lockheed, Cyclops(Scott Summers), Ryoko Oshida, Nao, Puff-FB(?). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: Xavier Institute 
Scott gives Kitty a letter from Japan. It turns out to be a ransom note, with a photograph of Puff, Lockheeds ex-girlfriend. 
Pg2-pg10: Outside Tokyo, Japan 
At the airport, Kitty meets Ryoko from the JDSS and they go to their headquarters. Its revealed that a ninja group called the Path of Destiny stole Puff from the LDSS and sent the note. 
Pg11-pg12pn3: FB 
Recaps the Wolverine & Kitty Pryde miniseries, no new information. 
Pg12pn4(of 5)-pg14: Tokyo 
Kitty goes to her hotel room, sends an e-mail to Wolverine and tries to call Yukio, but no one answers. She decides to hit the town. 
Pg15-pg24: Hours later, Tokyo 
Kitty is attacked by four thugs. She beats them up, and Lockheed arrives and stops them from attacking again. The thugs go to a nearby bar, where they meet the ninja who hired them. After killing the thugs, the ninja talks on the phone with Nao. 

References: 
In Kittys e-mail, she mentions that Wolverine just got back from Japan and mentions the events of the Soultaker mini. That was in early March, which would put this series in late March or early April. 

Green grass and leaves in both Westchester, New York and Tokyo, Japan. 

Wolverine doesnt send a response back to Kitty, and Yukio doesnt answer her phone, meaning they shouldnt get BTS notations for this issue. 

Yes, Puff is the dragon previously seen in Uncanny X-Men 181. They even mention that she shrunk in size. 

Does a photograph count as a Flashback? If so, the photo of Puff is easily placed, which would be just before this issue starts. Probably two or three days. 

Nao is heard on the other end of the phone, even though her first appearance isnt until next issue, and her name isnt revealed until after that. Even still, she still gets a full appearance for this issue, thanks to that phone call. 

JDSS stands for Japanese Department of Supernatural Sciences. 

Pg2 is probably the day after pg1, giving Kitty enough time to book a flight, etc. 

The midnight break is most likely between pg14 and pg15. They took the time to mention it was hours later, so thats the best spot. 

Pg1: Day One 
Pg2-pg14: Day Two 
Pg15-pg24: Day Three 

Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame #2 
Dragon Quest 
W: Akira Yoshida 
D: Paul Smith 
Published: September, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shadowcat(Kitty Pryde), Lockheed, Ryoko Oshida, Miyashiro, Nao. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: LDSS headquarters, Tokyo 
Ryoko talks to her boss, Miyashiro. 
Pg2-pg4: Sleepy-time 
Kitty dreams. 
Pg5-pg16: Tokyo 
Kitty is awoken by a phone call, and goes to the Tokyo Tower where shes attacked by ninjas. All escape but one, who kills himself. 
After cleaning up and changing clothes, Kitty goes to the JDSS headquarters to ask Ryoko more questions. 
Pg17-pg18: FB 
Another FlashBack to the Wolverine & Kitty Pryde mini, no new information. 
Pg19-pg24: Tokyo 
Kitty and Ryoko chat. 
Meanwhile, Lockheed finds a device under the bed in Kittys hotel room. 
Kitty leaves the JDSS headquarters and finds an unconscious Lockheed, whos been knocked unconscious by the device. Kitty is then approached by Nao whos wearing an Ogun mask. 

References: 
All in one day, the same day as the early morning hours of issue 1s pg24. 

Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame #3 
Dragon Quest 
W: Akira Yoshida 
D: Paul Smith 
Published: October, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shadowcat(Kitty Pryde), Lockheed, Nao. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg24: Continued from last issue 
Kitty and Nao fight throughout Tokyo, while Nao leads Kitty to her underground lair under the subway system. Once there, Kitty is asked to lead the Path of Destiny. 

References: 
All in one day, the same day as last issue. 

Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame #4 
Dragon Quest 
W: Akira Yoshida 
D: Paul Smith 
Published: November, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shadowcat(Kitty Pryde), Lockheed, Puff, Silver Samurai(Keniuchio Harada), Ryoko Oshida, Miyashiro, Nao. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: Continued from last issue 
Nao explains the Five Swords of Secrets and reveals she has one of them. Kitty offers instead of leading them, she could get them a second sword, the Silver Samurais. Nao agrees. Before she leaves, Kitty visits the dragons. 
Pg9: JDSS headquarters 
Ryoko talks to her boss. 
Pg10-pg23: Clan Yashida Compound 
Kitty asks Keniuchio to borrow his sword, and challenges him to a duel. Kitty wins, but she had to kill him to do it. 
Pg24: underground lair of the Path of Destiny 
Nao is informed of the Silver Samurais death, then plans to betray Kitty. 

References: 
All in one day, the same day as last issue. 

Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame #5 
Dragon Quest 
W: Akira Yoshida 
D: Paul Smith 
Published: December, 2005 

Appearances: 
Shadowcat(Kitty Pryde), Lockheed, Puff, Silver Samurai(Keniuchio Harada), Ryoko Oshida, Miyashiro, Nao. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1-pn5: FB 
Recaps the story thus far, no new information. 
Pg1pn6: now 
Lockheed, asleep in his cell. 
Pg1pn7(of 7): now 
Silver Samurai, dead at the Yashida Compound 
Pg2: Tokyo 
Kitty heads underground. 
Pg3-pg24: the underground lair of the Path of Destiny 
Lockheed wakes up and plays with Puff while Nao prepares for Kittys return, but shes already there disguised as a ninja! They decide to trade the dragons for the Silver Samurais sword, but Kitty shows up again! The first Kitty is revealed as Ryoko in disguise by an image inducer. Nao is pissed, then the Silver Samurai shows up! This really pisses Nao off, so she starts a big fight. Nao eventually escapes and the Path of Destiny ninjas are captured. Silver Samurai gets his sword back, the dragons are set freed, and everyone is happy. 
Later, Kitty gives the sword the path of Destiny had to the JDSS. They give her some plane tickets and she heads back to the states. 

References: 
All in one day, the same day as last issue. 

Theres a little bit of time between pg1 and pg2, and a little bit more between pg2 and pg3 for Kitty to put the rest of her plan into motion. Its still all in one day, though. 

Silver Samurai was faking! Hes acting like a decent guy here, so this is before Rogue 7-12, where hes turned back into a bastard. 

Overall: 
KP: S&F 1 pg1: Day One 
KP: S&F 1 pg2-pg14: Day Two 
KP: S&F 1 pg15-pg24: Day Three 
KP: S&F 2: Day Three 
KP: S&F 3: Day Three 
KP: S&F 4: Day Three 
KP: S&F 5: Day Three 

Shortly after Wolverine: Soultaker, but some time before Rogue 7-12. Either late March or early April.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 05 Feb 2006 10:22 pm    Post subject: Gambit v4 7-9
By Col_Fury

Gambit v4 #7 
Voodoo Economics pt 1 
Hath no Fury 
W: John Layman 
D: Georges Jeanty 
Published: April, 2005 

Appearances: 
Gambit(Remy LeBeau), Det. Noreen Tanaka, Det. Freddie Frederickson, Emery James Arcenaux, Antoinelle Arcenaux, Dan Downs, Genevieve, Madame Camille. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Three weeks ago, banks of the Bayou 
Emery gets yelled at by his aunt for using his mutant powers to steal. She smacks him and he leaves. 
Pg4-pg20: Today, New Orleans jail 
Gambit is interrogated about the events of the last storyline, and is released. Tanaka gives Gambit a ride, but they make a detour at the bank which is being robbed by Emery. Inside, Gambit has a quick fight with Emery and then talks him down. He even convinces the guy to attend Xaviers! Suddenly, Emery is shot and killed by Tanaka. 
Later, Tanaka gives Gambit a ride home form the bank and reveals that she killed Emery on purpose to further her career. She drops him off at the cemetery, where Dan Downs funeral is finishing up. Madame Camille, Genevieve, and some others are in attendance. 
Pg21-pg22: banks of the Bayou 
Antoinelle(Emerys aunt) casts a voodoo spell to raise the dead, Emery, Dan Downs, and a bunch of other corpses are zombified! 

References: 
Pg1-pg3 are 3 weeks before pg4. 
Pg4-pg22 are all in one day, the day after the end of issue 6. 

Full moon over New Orleans. 

Tanaka makes an offhand comment about the Brotherhood of Mutants, but its not a placement clue. It's just... an offhand comment. 

Gambit v4 #8 
Voodoo Economics pt 2 
Down Among the Dead Men 
W: John Layman 
D: Georges Jeanty 
Published: May, 2005 

Appearances: 
Gambit(Remy LeBeau), Brother Voodoo(Jericho Drumm), Emery James Arcenaux, Antoinelle Arcenaux, Dan Downs, Genevieve. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: Bayou 
Some tourists are attacked by zombies. 
Pg5-pg17: New Orleans 
Brother Voodoo fights zombies! 
Meanwhile, Gambit and Genevieve have dinner. Gambit tries to explain that hes with Rogue, and that he and Genevieve are just friends. Hes then distracted by zombies, and he teams up with Brother Voodoo outside and together they fight zombies. They encounter a zombified Dan Downs, which gives Gambit pause. 
Pg18: Madame Camilles place 
Genevieve is upset, so she burns a DVD of Gambit and Lilis, ahem, adventures seen in the previous story. 
Pg19-pg23: New Orleans 
Gambit and Brother Voodoo fight more zombies. Zombified Emery shows up, still with his mutant powers. 

References: 
All in one night, same night as the majority of last issue. 

Brother Voodoo says: Im not the guy wearing a leather trench coat and metal boots in 95-degree weather! 
Im not sure of the weather patterns in New Orleans, is it always hot? Or does this mean its summer-time? 

Full moon over New Orleans. 

Gambit v4 #9 
Voodoo Economics pt 3 
To Protect and Sever 
W: John Layman 
D: Georges Jeanty 
Published: June, 2005 

Appearances: 
Gambit(Remy LeBeau), Brother Voodoo(Jericho Drumm), Det. Noreen Tanaka, Det. Freddie Frederickson, Emery James Arcenaux, Antoinelle Arcenaux, Dan Downs, Genevieve, Madame Camille. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: New Orleans 
Tanaka and Frederickson shoot some zombies. 
Pg3-pg9: picking up from last issue 
Gambit and Brother Voodoo fight zombie Emery and run into Tanaka and Frederickson. Tanaka tells them about Antoinelle, how shes connected to the plot, and where she lives. 
Pg10: Madame Camilles place 
Genevieve is still upset, Camille asks whats going on, and Genevieve decides to do something with the DVD. 
Pg11-pg22: Bayou 
Gambit and Brother Voodoo fight some zombies at Antoinelles place. Gambit talks some sense into her while Brother Voodoo has alligators eat zombies. Gambit stops Tanaka from killing Antoinelle, which doesnt make Tanaka happy. 
Later, Gambit puts Dan Downs back into his coffin, and Brother Voodoo offers to give Gambit psychological therapy sessions, because in his professional opinion, Gambits messed up! 
Later still, Genevieve mails a DVD to Rogue at the X-Mansion. 

References: 
Therere still zombies in the streets when Genevieve mails the DVD, and its night, so its most likely the same night as the rest of the issue. So 

GAM4 7 pg1-pg3: three weeks before GAM4 7 pg4 
GAM4 6: one night 
GAM4 7 pg4-pg22: the day after GAM4 6, three weeks after GAM4 7 pg3 
GAM4 8: the same day as GAM4 7 pg22 
GAM4 9: the same day as GAM4 8 

Up next: Hulk: Destruction 1-4!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 07:04 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Another thanks to you, Col. This should be added to the calendar this evening, too.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Feb 2006 12:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Col_Fury, thanks for taking these issues, but I have to pick a few nits in your analysis of them. 

First off, Dan's last name is not Downs -- it's "Down". 

Secondly, Camille and Genevieve's last name is "D'Aubigne". 

Thirdly, while you're correct that #7 picks up the day after #6, I don't believe all three issues occur the same day. 

For one, both Dan and Emery are slightly decomposed when they're raised from the dead. For another, Noreen has changed clothes between #7 and 9 -- and for a third, Gambit mentions in #9 that he first encountered Emery "a while back" (although in #8 he also says he was "just" at Dan's funeral). 

I'd put a gap of a few days between #7 pp.4-20, a continuous narrative picking up the day after #6, and pp.21-22, when the zombies are raised. From there, I agree with you that #8-9 go on to occur the same day as #7 pp.21-22. 


Also, it should be noted that the bulk of #7 occurs on a weekday, as a bank is open to be robbed. The trouble is, in my analysis of #1-6, I concluded that #6 occured on a Saturday, making #7 a Sunday -- so the banks would be closed. 

I suppose it's possible that Wolverine wasn't actually watching "the O.C." live -- which was the only clue I used to deduce the days of the week. He does say in #5 that he got Dan's phone call at "midnight", which contradicts the idea that he was watching it live. 

If Wolverine was watching "the O.C." on tape, and briefly forgot that it wasn't live when he answered the phone (#4 shows that he had been drinking), that would allow the "midnight call" reference from #5 to stand, as well as allow #7 to occur on a weekday after all. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Feb 2006 03:44 pm    
By Col_Fury

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I have to pick a few nits in your analysis of them 
<<<

No problem, it's the best way to make sure we get everything right.  


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
both Dan and Emery are slightly decomposed when they're raised from the dead. 
<<<

Good point. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Noreen has changed clothes between #7 and 9 -- and for a third, Gambit mentions in #9 that he first encountered Emery "a while back" (although in #8 he also says he was "just" at Dan's funeral).  
<<<

I think Dan's funeral could still be on Gambit's mind, and he would still refer to it as recent. Noreen changing clothes and the 'while back' comment would put more time in between than I did. Good points. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'd put a gap of a few days between #7 pp.4-20, a continuous narrative picking up the day after #6, and pp.21-22, when the zombies are raised. From there, I agree with you that #8-9 go on to occur the same day as #7 pp.21-22.  
<<<

Then I should mention that the full moon seen in issue 7 was on pg22, meaning it's the same full moon seen in issue 8. 

So... 
GAM4 7 pg1-pg3: three weeks before GAM4 7 pg4 
GAM4 6: one night 
GAM4 7 pg4-pg20: the day after GAM4 6, three weeks after GAM4 7 pg3 
GAM4 7 pg21-pg22: a few days after GAM4 7 pg20 
GAM4 8: the same day as GAM4 7 pg22 
GAM4 9: the same day as GAM4 8 

Thanks for the feedback!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:05 am    Post subject: NYX 6
By Col_Fury

Disclaimer: 
I found this in the quarter bin in my comic shop today(well, Wednesday anyway) so I havent read any of the other issues. Most of the names I gathered from the recap page, but Im still reading part six of a seven part story, and therefore slightly confused. Hopefully, there wont be too much confusion. 

NYX #6 
Wannabe pt 6 
W: Joe Quesada 
D: Robert Teranishi 
Published: September, 2005 

Appearances: 
Felon(Bobby Soul), Zebra Daddy, Kiden Nixon, Cameron Palmer, Tatiana, X-23, Tatianas mom, Felons brother, Mrs. Alba, dead policemans ghost(Mr. Nixon). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: somewhere in New York 
Felon wakes up in a hotel room while a brown-haired girl(prostitute?) is showering. She passes out and he answers his ringing phone. Its Zebra Daddy, and he wants Felon to meet him. Felon hangs up and starts to head home, but hes having trouble remembering things. 
Pg5-pg6: the Bronx 
Kiden, Cameron, Tatiana, and X-23 talk about what Tatianas been through today. Tatiana decides to go home, and Kiden sees a ghost of a dead policeman.(her dad?) 
Pg7-pg10: the Flatiron district 
Felon and Zebra Daddy talk. Zebra Daddy wants felon to find X-23 and bring her back to him. 
Pg11-pg12: Tatianas place 
Tatiana comes home to find her mother having sex with some guy on the couch. Her mother asks her why she isnt in school, and Tatiana runs out to meet Kiden whos waiting for her. 
Pg13-pg15: District X, 7:36 AM 
Felon talks to his handicapped brother when Mrs. Alba the babysitter arrives. 
Pg16: Manhattan, 8:06 AM 
Felon talks to Tanya, who gives him Camerons address. 
Pg17: East 25th Street, 8:18 AM 
Felon goes to Camerons apartment, which has been cordoned off by the police. 
Pg18-pg19: Giuliani High School, 8:30 AM 
Felon finds a girl at school(who apparently knows Tatiana) and asks her where her friends are. 
Pg20-pg21: the Bronx 
Cameron blows up(emotionally, not literally) at Kiden while Tatiana and X-23 watch. 
Pg22-pg23: Somewhere in New York 
Felon calls Zebra Daddy to let him know where to find X-23 and friends. 
Pg24: the Bronx 
Kiden goes dumpster diving while the others try to decide what to do next. 
Pg25-pg27: District X, 8:07 PM 
Felon feeds his brother but cant remember what he did today. He then sees the ghost of a dead police officer.(Kidens dad?) 

References: 
Pg1-pg12 are all in one day, and judging by the recap page and Tatianas comment, seem to be the same day as last issue. This would be a school day, because her mom thinks she should still be in school at this time.(and going by what the recap page says, she discovered her powers in school, so that makes sense) 

Pg13-pg27 are also all in one day, which is the day following pg12. Also a school day, because Felon asks the girl at school where her friends are. Pg13 starts at 7:36 AM and pg27 ends at 8:07 PM. 

Hope that helps!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:12 pm    Post subject: Machine Teen 4
By Col_Fury

Disclaimer: 
Again, Im reading part 4 of a 5 part story here. Thanks to the recap page I know who everyone is, more or less. 

Machine Teen #4 
History 101001 pt 4 
W: Marc Sumerak 
D: Mike Hawthorne 
Published: October, 2005 

Appearances: 
Machine Teen(Adam Aaronson), J.T. Hunt, Dr. Isaacs, Carly Whitmere, Officer Michaels, Holden Radcliffe, some goons and henchmen. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: Aaronson residence 
Adam and J.T. go to Adams house to find his dad is missing and the place is wrecked. 
Pg3-pg5: Elsewhere 
Dr. Isaacs(Adams dad) is tortured by one of Radcliffes goons. Radcliffe appears with two henchmen and makes some cryptic comments. 
Pg6-pg7pn1: Aaronson residence 
Adam asks J.T. some questions. 
Pg7pn2-pn3: FB 
About a year ago, J.T. is working in Dr. Isaacs shop and finds the prototype body for Adam. 
Pg7pn4(of 5)-pg15: Aaronson residence 
J.T. finds a hard drive and Adam tries to download it. Theyre attacked by one of Radcliffes goons, but they escape. J.T.s house is being watched by more of Radcliffes people, so they go to the football field instead. Adam calls Carly to meet them. 
Pg16-pg22: Football Field 
Adam and J.T. have a heart to heart, then Carly shows up. Shes been fooled by Officer Michaels who comes with her. Michaels reveals that he works for Radcliffe and captures Adam, J.T., and Carly! 

References: 
All in one night. 

Adam says: In one night, I get gunned down by hitmen, my dad disappears and to top it all off, I find out that Im not really even human?! 
So whatever issue all of that happens in, its the same day as this issue. 

The FlashBack occurs about a year ago. J.T.s mom had been bugging him to get a part-time job, and thats what hes doing in this FlashBack. Does another issue establish when in the school year this is? This could have been a summer job for J.T., but it doesnt say.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 10:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Much obliged again, Col_Fury.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 12:28 am    Post subject: Colossus: Bloodline 1-5
By Col_Fury

Colossus: Bloodline #1 
W: David Hine 
D: Jorge Lucas 
Published: November, 2005 

Appearances: 
Colossus(Peter Rasputin), Kitty Pryde, Wolverine(Logan), Cyclops(Scott Summers), Emma Frost, Larisa Mishchenko, Mr. Sinister(Nathaniel Essex). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: Tomsk region of Siberia, daytime 
Mr. Sinister kills Yuri, a descendant of Grigory Rasputin. 
Pg5-pg6pn2: Sleepy-time 
Peter dreams. 
Pg6pn3(of 5)-pg8: Xavier Institute 
Colossus wakes up and breaks through the wall of his bedroom and lands in the front yard. Kitty, Logan, Scott, and Emma run out in their pajamas to check on him, then discuss his recent escape from imprisonment. 
Pg9-pg11: Saint Petersburg, day into night 
Larisa talks to her editor Viktor about a piece shes working on. 
That night, Mr. Sinister kills Larisas roommate in a case of mistaken identity. 
Pg12-pg15: Xavier Institute, night 
Kittys talking with Peter about his time being imprisoned when Emma tells him of an urgent communication from his cousin, Larisa. 
Pg16-pg21pn1: Saint Petersburg, day 
Peter gets a ride from Kirill from the airport. He meets with Larisa, who tells him of two dozen recent killings over the past three months, and explains how theyre all related. 
Pg21pn2: Xavier Institute, night 
Kitty looks at one of Peters covered paintings. 
Pg21pn3: Saint Petersburg, day 
Larisa tells Peter that theyre related to 
Pg21pn4(of 4): Xavier Institute, night 
Kitty uncovers the painting. 
Pg22pn1: Saint Petersburg, day 
Grigory Efimovich Rasputin! 
Pg22pn2(of 2): Xavier Institute, night 
Kitty sees a monstrous painting of Peter. 

References: 
Full moon over the Xavier Institute on pg6. 

Larisas roommate was killed last week as of pg17. Not seven days ago, but sometime in the last calendar week. 

Pg1-pg4 happened sometime in the last three months as of pg18. 

Kirill mentions Colossus and the X-Men fighting a monster in New York, most likely a reference to Astonishing 7. 

Pg21 & pg22 are intercut, day in Russia and night in America, so theyre happening concurrently. 

C: B 1 pg1-pg4: sometime in the last 3 months, as of pg18 
C: B 1 pg5-pg8: One day, full moon over New York 
C: B 1 pg9-pg10: sometime last week, as of pg17 
C: B 1 pg12-pg15: Day One 
C: B 1 pg16-pg22: Day Two 

Colossus: Bloodline #2 
W: David Hine 
D: Jorge Lucas 
Published: December, 2005 

Appearances: 
Colossus(Peter Rasputin), Larisa Mishchenko, Vladimir Rasputin, Mikhail Rasputin, Mr. Sinister(Nathaniel Essex), Grigory Rasputin-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: Lake Baikhal region of Siberia 
Vladimir dances around and sings to himself. 
Pg3-pg4pn3: Saint Petersburg 
Peter and Larisa continue their discussion from last issue. 
Pg4pn4(of 4)-pg5: FB 
Larisa gives us a history lesson on Grigori Rasputin circa 1903-1912. 
Pg6pn1: Saint Petersburg 
Peter and Larisa chat. 
Pg6pn2-pn3(of 3): FB 
Historical orgies of Grigori, and apparently Mr. Sinister likes to watch. 
Pg7-pg12: Saint Petersburg, night 
Larisa and Peter decide to go to Siberia, but on the way to the train station Peter beats the crap out of two cops, then feels bad about it. They continue to the station and get on a train. Mr. Sinister and Mikhail watch. 
Pg13-pg16: next day 
On the train, Peter and Larisa talk about Peters imprisonment, and then their family. 
Pg14pn2, pg14pn3(of 5), & pg15pn1(of 4) contain three reminder FlashBacks that contain no new information. 
Pg17: Siberia 
Mr. Sinister and Mikhail drive towards Vladimirs place. 
Pg18-pg22: Siberia 
Peter and Larisa arrive at Vladimirs place. The three chat until Mr. Sinister and Mikhail show up. 

References: 
Full moon over Saint Petersburg. 

Pg1-pg12: Day Two 
Pg13-pg22: Day Three 

Colossus: Bloodline #3 
W: David Hine 
D: Jorge Lucas 
Published: January, 2006 

Appearances: 
Colossus(Peter Rasputin), Larisa Mishchenko, Vladimir Rasputin, Mikhail Rasputin, Mr. Sinister(Nathaniel Essex), Grigori Rasputin-FB, Apocalypse-FB, Charles Darwin-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5pn1: Continued from last issue 
Vladimir threatens Larisa and Mr. Sinister calms everyone down. He then tells us a story 
Pg5pn2(of 6)-pg20: FB 
Recaps Mr. Sinisters history, from when he was a scientist up through when he was transformed by Apocalypse, and then he meets Grigory. Lots of information, most of it new, but Ill get back to that. 
Pg21-pg22: Siberia 
Vladimir sets himself on fire, much to everyones surprise. 

References: 
The current day portions are all on the same day, Day Three. 

Because this is for the current calendar, Im going to ignore the historical FlashBacks for now but Ill get back to them at a later date, after I get a chance to re-read the Cyclops and Phoenix mini that originally covered this part of Mr. Sinisters history. Also, the bits with Elena and Ivan. 

Colossus: Bloodline #4 
W: David Hine 
D: Jorge Lucas 
Published: February, 2006 

Appearances: 
Colossus(Peter Rasputin), Larisa Mishchenko, Vladimir Rasputin, Mikhail Rasputin, Mr. Sinister(Nathaniel Essex), Grigori Rasputin, Peter Rasputin Jr. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6pn1: Continued from last issue 
Colossus grabs the flaming Vladimir, runs outside and extinguishes him in the snow. Vladimir dies anyway. The remaining Rasputin descendants feel the presence of Grigori getting stronger, including one panel of Peter Jr. in the Savage Land. Mr. Sinister explains that Grigori is in all of his descendants, then tells us how he found out. 
Pg6pn2(of 6)-pg9: FB 
Mr. Sinister chats with Vladimir and discovers that Grigori has survived through his descendants. Grigori is partially in control of Vladimir, and together they decide to kill all but one of the Rasputin relatives so that Grigori can live again. 
Pg7pn3(of 4): FB 
Same panel as issue 3s pg20pn1. No new information. 
Pg10: FB 
Mr. Sinister begins to kill Rasputins. The one depicted here is probably the first. 
Pg11pn1-pn2: FB 
Mr. Sinister talks to Vladimir about Mikhail. 
Pg11pn3(of 3)-pg12pn2: FB 
Shortly after pg11pn2, Vladimir calls to Mikhail, whos still in the Dark Zone. 
Pg11pn3(of 4)-pg14pn1: Siberia 
Colossus is upset with Mikhail, then Larisa remembers something from their childhood 
Pg14pn2: FB 
A young Peter is trapped in a cave. 
Pg14pn3: Siberia 
Mikhail listens to Larisa. 
Pg14pn4: FB 
Mikhail saves the trapped Peter. 
Pg14pn5(of 8)-pg16: Siberia 
Mr. Sinister kills Larisa, which upsets Colossus. Mikhail teleports them away 
Pg17-pg22: Dark Zone 
to the Dark Zone! After a quick fight, Colossus prepares to kill Mikhail. 

References: 
Pg6pn2-pg9-FB is where Mr. Sinister gets the idea to start killing Rasputins. This would be shortly before the 3 month period. 

Pg10-FB is the first Rasputin killing, so this would start the 3 month period. 

Pg11-pg12pn2-FB would be during the 3 month period, but at the tail end of it. Mr. Sinister seems to be looking for the last few relatives at this point, so Id put it just before issue 1s pg1-pg4. 

Mr. Sinister shouldnt be making any appearances elsewhere during this period, as hes busy killing Rasputins in Russia. 

The other FlashBacks are historical, so Ill get to them later. 

Current day portions are still all on Day Three. 

Colossus: Bloodline #5 
W: David Hine 
D: Jorge Lucas 
Published: March, 2006 

Appearances: 
Colossus(Peter Rasputin), Larisa Mishchenkos corpse, Vladimir Rasputins corpse, Mikhail Rasputin, Mr. Sinister(Nathaniel Essex), Grigori Rasputin, Kitty Pryde. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1-pn5: Continued from last issue 
Colossus feels Grigoris presence. 
Pg1pn6-pn7: FB 
Mikhail finds the young trapped Peter and reaches down to him. 
Pg1pn8(of 9)-pg3: Dark Zone 
Mikhail overpowers Colossus and teleports away, leaving Colossus behind. 
Pg4-pg6pn2: Siberia 
Mikhail returns, chats with Mr. Sinister, and brings Larisas body over next to Valdimirs. 
Pg6pn3(of 4)-pg8: FB 
After Grigori died, Elena kills her brother Ivan, then chats with Mr. Sinister. 
Pg9pn1-pn2: Siberia 
Mikhail calls Mr. Sinister a fool. 
Pg9pn3(of 4)-pg10pn2: FB 
A young Mikhail watches an old Elena and Ivan chat. 
Pg10pn3(of 4)-pg11: Siberia 
Mikhail and Mr. Sinister chat some more. 
Pg12-pg14: Dark Zone 
Mikhail appears and rescues Colossus. 
Pg15-pg20: Siberia 
Colossus and Mikhail appear and together they beat the tar out of Mr. Sinister. Mr. Sinister teleports away, Colossus and Mikhail say their goodbyes. Mikhail goes back to the Dark Zone. 
Pg21-pg22: Xavier Institute 
Kitty greets Peter as he returns. 

References: 
pg1-pg20 are all on Day Three 
Pg21-pg22 are a day or three later. Enough time for Peter to get a flight back to the states, anyway. 

It looks like a full moon over Siberia, but our right side of it is obscured by trees. 

An again, Ill get to those historical Flashbacks later. Promise.  

For the current calendar, overall: 

C: B 4-FB pg6pn2-pg9: shortly before the 3 month period 
C: B 4-FB pg10: starts the 3 month period 
C: B 4-FB pg11-pg12pn2: near the end of the 3 month period 
C: B 1 pg1-pg4: sometime in the last 3 months, as of pg18 
C: B 1 pg5-pg8: One day, full moon over New York 
C: B 1 pg9-pg10: sometime last week, as of pg17 
C: B 1 pg12-pg15: Day One 
C: B 1 pg16-pg22: Day Two 
C: B 2 pg1-pg4pn3, pg6pn1, pg7-pg12: Day Two, full moon over St. Petersburg 
C: B 2 pg13-pg22: Day Three 
C: B 3 pg1-pg5pn1, pg21-pg22: Day Three 
C: B 4 pg1-pg6pn1, pg12pn3-pg14pn1, pg14pn3, pg14pn5-pg22: Day Three 
C: B 5 pg1pn1-pn5, pg1pn8-pg6pn2, pg9pn1-pn2, pg10pn3-pg20: Day Three, ? moon 
C: B 5 pg21-pg22: Day Five
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 07:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury, thanks for this analysis and that of NYX. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 06:25 pm    
By Enda80

Strange Tales I#24 actually had a Rasputin story. 


24. 
t-st_024.jpg 
024.htm 
1953-12 
bill everett 
the things in the coffins, joe sinnott 
a man of decision 
mission to mars, ed goldfarb 
russia 
story of rasputin and anastasia, sam kweskin 
come in, vic carrabota 
the fat man, bob fujitani 
$ 


http://fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th/~ad/comics/dat/sto.dat 

Trivia; Christopher Lee recalls meeting one of the men who killed Rasputin as a boy. Count Yousupov.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 10:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Enda, you're doing It again. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 10 Feb 2006 06:47 am    Post subject: Wizard Mini-Comic #3: The Sensational Spider-Man
By JLH

Though nobody's brought it up, I figured I'd do an analysis for it anyway... 
------------------------------------ 

WIZARD MINI-COMIC 3: THE SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN [Free Ashcan comic published with "Wizard the Comics Magazine" #52, December 1995] 
Writer/Penciler: Dan Jurgens 
Finishes/Inker: Klaus Jason 
"Spider-Man Forever" 

Cast: 
SCARLET SPIDER/BEN REILLY 

Summary: Ben Reilly, currently believing himself to be the one true Peter Parker, is pitying himself while crouching atop an eagle-head gargoyle during the rain. His life story is played through newly drawn remembrances, which he narrates. In doing so, his mood changes considerably, as he redevotes himself to the cause of the world needing heroes, and now, and forever, he's the one and only Spider-Man! 

I'll elaborate on the flashbacks and such: 
Page 2: What seems to be the posing of the three Parkers for a family portrait, featuring a well dressed Uncle Ben, Auny May, and a pre-teen Peter Parker (he's just a little shorter than May); A shot of Peter, probably about that same age (could just be the way Dan is drawning him looking rather tall and lanky is making me see him as older), tearing into gifts on Christmas morning as May & Ben watch from the couch; Uncle Ben guiding Peter along as he rides a red bicycle; Uncle Ben giving Peter a microscope (this shot seems lifted from Amazing Fantasy 15. Oddly, only here does he have glasses and the sweater vest look we know so well, in the previous ones, he looks just like a normal kid.) 
Page 3: Peter getting bit by the spider; Peter, just after getting bit, climbing a brick wall; Peter in his usual Spider-Man costume. 
Page 4: Spidey letting the burglar get by him as the cop shouts and reaches; Spidey holding the unconscious burglar as he recognizes him; a black & white photo of Uncle Ben. 
Page 5: Vulture, Mysterio, Kraven, Rhino, Doctor Octopus, and Green Goblin standing around. Spider-Man, holding Gwen Stacey's dead body, is in the foreground. Floating heads of J. Jonah Jameson, Gwen Stacy (smiling, I guess she's happy she's dead), and Mary Jane also appear. 
Page 6: Spider-Man fighting his clone, both in costume. The head of the Jackal floats in the background. A giant image of Venom stands in the back, as Peter and Mary Jane stand in front getting married. Ben Reilly wanders, brooding and alone, and over to the side, the dreaded smokestack! 
Page 7: Scarlet Spider and Spider-Man fighting the new, improved Jackal; Peter and Ben facing off as MJ watches from behind (image redrawn from Spectacular Spidey #226). 

Continuity notes: Ben has brown hair, rather longish, and a good bit of beard stubble. He's also not in costume, yet is hanging on the top of that building, giving the impression this is most likely after he'd given up the Scarlet Spider persona, but before he took back the role of Spidey. The fact the issue ends with a blurb lead-in to Sensational Spidey #0 lends credance to that, he rather proudly declares himself to be Spidey with it. The flashback stuff ends by Ben claiming "Peter and Mary Jane left town", which merely reduces the focus of the story to that era we already know it takes place during, but it surely doesn't make it sound like they left too recently. 

I'm not sure that those first three flashbacks on page 2 have been seen before. Ben and Peter share the exact same memories, so I do suppose that they would count for Peter's chronology. Perhaps those three, the family portrait, the Christmas morning gift opening, and bike riding are all the same day? Peter doesn' look any different in the three shots, and lord knows Ben and May don't. Uncle Ben even has the same outfit on in all but the portrait! Perhaps they took the family portrait on Christmas Eve (as some families are known to do... I think), then we see the next morning, and sometime later, when Peter tries out his new bike. Where does this fit? Well, checking around, I see a Christmas tale of Petey (see http://www.hembeck.com/Petey.htm), which the MCP has his age at approx 10, which is about right for this appearance. His pajamas in the flashback here are not dissimilar from the ones in that tale! (ignoring the fact he has his glasses on it Petey and lacks them here... uhh, they kept falling off between scenes?) In the bike riding scene, Pete has short-sleeves, so this isn't Christmas in New York here. So placing it after the snow-bound, circa Christmas next Petey tale perhaps? Just a suggestion. 

Calendar notes: The story takes place all within a few minutes, or hours, however long Ben spends flashing back, but all in the same night, in the rain, which he claims is "another cold, October rain in New York". Which would make it, what, a year between this and Ben's death in PP:SM 75, if we believed the timeframe comments by the characters? Ha! It is to laugh. 

------------------------------------ 

MCP style stuff: 

SCARLET SPIDER/BEN REILLY 
... 
NW 66 
**WMC 3 
SENSM 0 
... 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
WOSM@ 5/3 
**WMC 3-FB (family portrait posing) 
M/AGE 85 
**WMC 3-FB (Christmas morning) 
M/TALES 235/2 
**WMC 3-FB (bike ride) 
M/TALES 235/3 
... 

PARKER, BEN 
... 
WOSM@ 5/3-BTS 
**WMC 3-FB (family portrait posing) 
M/AGE 85 
**WMC 3-FB (Christmas morning) 
**WMC 3-FB (guiding Peter on bike) 
PPTSS@ 11/4 
... 

PARKER, MAY REILLY 
... 
WOSM@ 5/3 
**WMC 3-FB (family portrait posing) 
M/AGE 85 
**WMC 3-FB (Christmas morning) 
PPTSS@ 11/4 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 24 Dec 2005 11:17 am    Post subject: All-new call for analyses -- completed stories thru January
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's a list of story arcs and individual issues I'd like to get into the new edition of the calendar*, which I hope to get out at the end of January (unless Fury's chronology is totally whacked and requires a rehaul). Thanks to everyone who has volunteered to provide analyses. If folks can get them posted as early as they can, it will prevent a large volume of work for me at the very end. 
(*except, of course, for those that do not occur in current continuity) 

Completed stories (by 1/25/06) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #88-91 (Kevin) 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 
X-Men: Kitty Pryde  Shadow & Flame #1-5 (Paul O.) 

Thanks again, folks! 
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 09 Feb 2006 10:12 pm; edited 24 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Dec 2005 02:39 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Guardians #6  
<<<

Guardians was a 5 issue miniseries. Are you sure you're not thinking of Starjammers? Did you ever get all issues reviewed for Starjammers? 

Moving on, someone out there take Shang-Chi #3-5 off of Paul's hands for him, those have been on his list since, like....forever.  

(I'd do it, but I don't have those issues). 

Moving on again, if we get all of these issues in by your deadline, will we have a comprehensive list of everything published by Marvel since 2000, (that falls into Earth-616)? Doesn't your calender actually start with what was published in the middle of the year 2000? Was there anything from early 2000, (or maybe even late 1999) that needs added to your calender? Just trying to think ahead, (so we can get it all on the calender).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Dec 2005 03:39 am 
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 

Giant-Size Invaders #2 (JLH) 
Punisher: The Tyger (JLH) 


Neither of these take place in the present (barring Tyger having some framing sequences). But I will get them done. 

What about Drax the Destroyer 1-4? That'll be finished by next week, finally. Not taking place on Earth probably doesn't make calenderizing it easy...

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Dec 2005 11:00 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote: 
>>>
What about Drax the Destroyer 1-4? That'll be finished by next week, finally. Not taking place on Earth probably doesn't make calenderizing it easy... 
<<<

I would think it would make it infinitely easy. 


watching: three stooges

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2005 05:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
What about Drax the Destroyer 1-4?  
<<<

Oops. Gotta move that and Kitty's mini over from the future list.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2005 05:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just edited the list by adding the Drax and Kitty minis and deleting the GUARDIANS #6. 


Kevin wrote: 
>>>
Moving on again, if we get all of these issues in by your deadline, will we have a comprehensive list of everything published by Marvel since 2000, (that falls into Earth-616)? Doesn't your calender actually start with what was published in the middle of the year 2000? Was there anything from early 2000, (or maybe even late 1999) that needs added to your calender? Just trying to think ahead, (so we can get it all on the calender). 
<<<


It starts just before Maximum Security (H3 12 is the first entry), and I think I'll have every canonical issue that occurs since. The time covered is 3 1/2 years, from July of Year 20 through December of Year 23. I'm sure someone will note any omissions once the calendar is posted. Early entries are still skimpy in terms of plot synopses; I just haven't had time to go back and enter them. 

I think things are looking good overall. As I've noted, the only big thing hanging out there is the issue of Fury's reinstatement as head of SHIELD, and that could screw things up big time. Then there's the Spidey/Black Cat mini, which is problematic.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2005 11:02 pm    
By Col_Fury

Mr. Santa Clause dropped off those pesky Shang-Chi issues at my house yesterday, so you can put me down for those. I'll probably have them done sometime next week.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2005 11:29 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Not that it's listed, but it's been completed for some time, so I'll be posting an analysis for Stoker's Dracula 1-4 shortly. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 11:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Mr. Santa Clause dropped off those pesky Shang-Chi issues at my house yesterday, so you can put me down for those. I'll probably have them done sometime next week. 
<<<

Thanks much, Col_Fury. 


Quote: 
>>>
Not that it's listed, but it's been completed for some time, so I'll be posting an analysis for Stoker's Dracula 1-4 shortly.  
<<<

Is this series canonical, Sean? 


Quote: 
>>>
NYX #6-7 (Paul O.)  
<<<

I have analyses of NYX 1-4, and I actually have a copy of NYX 5. One question I have, though, is how the flashback scenes on the first few pages of NYX 5 interweave with scenes from the end of NYX 3 and NYX 4. 

_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 12:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I can't get you NC3 #7-11 until the trade comes out -- so if you want them by the end of January, someone else will have to provide them. Sorry. :-/ 

X-23 #1-6 doesn't occur in current continuity -- except for the end sequence, which occurs shortly before NYX starts up. Do you want an analysis of the final page or two? It's basically "X-23 gets off a bus in New York" but I can tell you what folks are wearing if you like. 

I guess I'll get cracking on Gambit v4 #1-9, then. And, owning the NYX23 HC, I can probably give you some insight as to how those FBs from #5 interweave. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 03:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
X-23 #1-6 doesn't occur in current continuity -- except for the end sequence, which occurs shortly before NYX starts up. Do you want an analysis of the final page or two? It's basically "X-23 gets off a bus in New York" but I can tell you what folks are wearing if you like.  
<<<

Any parts of X-23 #1-6 that likely occur sometime after Maximum Security is fair game for this edition of the calendar. So, yes, please do provide an analysis of at least those relevant parts. And if you can confirm that if that flashback from CU/X-23 is just a repeat of a scene already published in the X-23 mini, that'd be great, too. Thanks, Jeph. 


Quote: 
>>>
I guess I'll get cracking on Gambit v4 #1-9, then. And, owning the NYX23 HC, I can probably give you some insight as to how those FBs from #5 interweave.  
<<<

Cool. Thanks again! 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 05:09 pm    
By Jason Doty

Do you want me to tackle Nightcrawler 7-11? Also, I have another week off before the next semester starts, so if anyone wants me to attempt to do any "X-Men" related title currently on the list before Paul's deadline just post.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 05:50 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Do you want me to tackle Nightcrawler 7-11?  
<<<

That would be great, Jason. And Jeph can concentrate on NC3 5-6. Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 06:03 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Not that it's listed, but it's been completed for some time, so I'll be posting an analysis for Stoker's Dracula 1-4 shortly. 


Is this series canonical, Sean? 
<<< 


Since, it doesn't look like this has been answered, and keep in mind that I haven't read these yet.... 

This series is a continuation of Roy Thomas' Dracula story begun in Dracula Lives in 1974. 

Issue 1 reprints material that originally appeared in Dracula Lives 5-8 
Issue 2 reprints oaterial that originally appeared in Dracula Lives 10-11 
and Legion of Monsters 1 
Issues 3 and 4 contain all new material, that finishes off the story. 

As the story takes place in 1890, I cannot imagine it would matter for the calendar, but If the previously published material is canon, then Issues 3 and 4 of Stoker's Dracula should also be. If they're not, well then they're not. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 06:24 pm    
By Somebody

Stoker's Dracula = straight adaptation of the original book. 

Someone somewhere else said that made it non-canon for the MU (because the MU Drac has history that contradicts the original book), but I can't swear to that either way.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 06:33 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Not that it's listed, but it's been completed for some time, so I'll be posting an analysis for Stoker's Dracula 1-4 shortly.  
<<<

Is this series canonical, Sean? 
<<<

Yes: it's been established since TOD 1, and confirmed in every OHOTMU, that the events of Bram Stoker's "Dracula" did actually occur in the MU. Essential Tomb of Dracula vol. 4 references the series by name in its chronological presentation of the stories from Dracula Lives. Stoker's Dracula #1 and the first three chapters of #2 are reprints; the fourth chapter of #2 and the entirety of the two subsequent issues are completely new material. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 03:44 am    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Mr. Santa Clause dropped off those pesky Shang-Chi issues at my house yesterday, so you can put me down for those. I'll probably have them done sometime next week.  
<<<

Thanks much, Col_Fury.  
<<<

You're welcome, but don't thank me. Thank my wife, she's the one that bought them.(don't tell any kids that still believe in Santa, though  ) 

Also, didn't you have Mutopia X #1-5 included in your HoM chronology suggestion over in this thread,(specifically pg5)Paul? Do you still need an analysis of that? Or just issue #5? 

As for X-23, I'm pretty sure that the majority of the mini takes place 'two years' before she gets off the bus, so therefore 'two years' before NYX.(I could be wrong, though) If it is 'two years' ago, that would still be after Maximum Security, wouldn't it?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 11:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Also, didn't you have Mutopia X #1-5 included in your HoM chronology suggestion over in this thread,(specifically pg5)Paul? Do you still need an analysis of that? Or just issue #5?  
<<<

Good catch, Col. Yes, I need only issue #5. And to make work even lighter for Paul O., I picked up NYX #7 in a quarter bin yesterday, so I'll I need for that title is an analysis for #6.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 01:36 am    
By Col_Fury

Hey John S. and/or Jeph Y., 
I'm going to have some spare time on my hands this week, so if you guys are inclined, I could take either, or both, of these off of your hands: 

Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 

X-23 #1-6 (Jeph) 

What do you think?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 11:36 am    
By jephyork
Director

You know what, I was really looking forward to X-23 #1-6, but I'm still in the middle of Gambit v4 #1-6 right now, and we all know how slow I work these days. 

So why don't you go right ahead and take it ... later on, I can always analyze it myself and play compare/contrast with your version if I want. Yah? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 04:43 pm    
By Col_Fury

Yah!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 09:24 am    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Runaways v2 #9-12 (JD) 
<<<

Completed, but it's apparently now post-HoM. 


Quote: 
>>>
X-Men: Kitty Pryde  Shadow & Flame #1-6 (Paul O.) 
<<<

That series is only 5 issues long.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 04:31 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thor: Blood Oath #1-6 (Col_Fury) has been completed, so that could be deleted as well.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 05:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The list should be up-to-date now.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Feb 2006 10:03 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm determined to submit a revised calendar to Russ next weekend for reformatting and posting...however new issues may change things. It's just been too darn long and that current version is way outdated. 

I'd like to make it as complete as I can, so I wonder if I can get the following analyses by Wednesday. Any assistance toward this goal will be greatly appreciated.  

Amazing Fantasy v3 #15 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Father #3-6 (Kevin) 
Fantastic Four/Iron Man: Big in Japan #1-4 (Sean K.) 
Gambit v4 #1-6 (Jeph) 
Gambit v4 #7-9 (Jeph) 
Hulk: Destruction #1-4 (shandrakor) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #88-91 (Kevin) 
Livewires #1-6 (Somebody) 
Machine Teen #4 (shandrakor) 
Mutopia X #5 (Paul O.) 
NYX #6 (Paul O.) 
X-Men: Colossus  Bloodline #1-5 (Paul O.) 
X-Men: Kitty Pryde  Shadow & Flame #1-5 (Paul O.)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Feb 2006 02:17 am    
By jephyork
Director

You'll definitely have Gambit v4 #1-6 by Wednesday, at least...  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Feb 2006 03:28 am    
By Col_Fury

By Wednesday? For whatever reason, Sunday and Tuesday nights are my free time, and I actually have Wednesday off this week. If anyone wants me to lighten their load, the books I own and can do are: 

Amazing Fantasy v3 #15 
Gambit v4 #7-9 
Hulk: Destruction #1-4 
Incredible Hulk v3 #88-91 
Mutopia X #5 
X-Men: Colossus  Bloodline #1-5 
X-Men: Kitty Pryde  Shadow & Flame #1-5 

Issue 6 of Daredevil: Father still hasn't come out yet, as far as I can tell. Or did I just miss it? 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
You'll definitely have Gambit v4 #1-6 by Wednesday, at least...   
<<<

Did you want me to do 7-9? 

Hulk: Destruction may be tricky. I don't have a degree in Hulk history, so I'm not exactly sure how to make those FlashBacks fit. This thread talks a lot about that very subject. Being that it's for the current calendar, did you just want an analysis for the current day portions and ignore the retcons? 

Is there any series that's a priority over another? Or just everything that you can get? 

Oh, Wednesday morning or evening? Would Thursday 1:00 AM be cutting it too close?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Feb 2006 08:52 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Oh, Wednesday morning or evening? Would Thursday 1:00 AM be cutting it too close? 
<<<

The more I get earlier, the more likely I can squeeze something in late in the week. I'm setting some time aside late in the week to log in some of Wednesday's new releases. 

As far as the calendar goes, only those portions of Hulk: Destruction that take place in the last few years (Marvel Time) will be relevant. 

Col_Fury, it sounds like Jeph might appreciate your tackling Gambit, so that might be the place to start, followed by Hulk: Destruction, if we haven't heard from shandrakor. Paul O., do you need Col_Fury's help on Mutopia, Colossus, and Kitty? I'm guessing that Kevin's on the case with his assignments, but feel free to chime in if help is needed, Kev. 

Thanks, Col_Fury, for offering to help. And again, thanks to all our volunteers. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Feb 2006 02:32 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It's just been too darn long and that current version is way outdated.  
<<<

Where will the next Calender post end? The day of "House of M" or Dec. 31st of whatever year we're up to? 

Quote: 
>>>
Amazing Fantasy v3 #15 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Father #3-6 (Kevin) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #88-91 (Kevin) 

I'm guessing that Kevin's on the case with his assignments, but feel free to chime in if help is needed, Kev.  
<<<

If it helps get everything in by the deadline, then I'm all for an assist. I would've gotten them all finished eventually, (I'm a slow, but steady work horse  ) but finish all of those listed above by Wednesday? Not likely...so Col. Fury, if you want to tackle #Incredible Hulk v3 #88-91 and Amazing Fantasy v3 #15, go for it. 

Quote: 
>>>
Issue 6 of Daredevil: Father still hasn't come out yet, as far as I can tell. Or did I just miss it?  
<<<

You're correct, it's still not out yet. It's why I've kept putting off analysis for those issues...but I can go ahead and finish up analysis for Issues #3-5, (and just pray that Issue #6 doesn't blow everything to hell...) 

Quote: 
>>>
Is there any series that's a priority over another? 
<<<

Hulk v3 #88-91 is set so far in the future, (months after HoM, to allow for the real Col. Fury to return) that it shouldn't mess up any of the calender too greatly. Amazing Fantasy v3 #15 is a bunch of stand alone stories, with no real problems for chronology concerns, (unless some of the revisions for those characters are retcons, which could get messy...weren't all of those characters in that issue old Marvel characters that haven't been used in years?) 

With that being the case, Col. Fury, as far as priority goes: I would possibly recommend you focus on other titles first...ones that are definently pre-HoM for instance. But if you can squeeze those in before Wednesday, that'd be great.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Feb 2006 06:58 pm    
By Col_Fury

My free time for the day has officially begun, so I guess I'll take Gambit first, then Hulk: Destruction, then Amazing Fantasy. 

It seems that the main Hulk book is the lowest priority of them all, being set in the relative future. So when I get the above finished, I guess we'll see what happens after that.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Feb 2006 09:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Where will the next Calender post end? The day of "House of M" or Dec. 31st of whatever year we're up to?  
<<<

It will end Dec. 31 of Year 23, a few months after HOM. From the sound of things, the current Hulk arc is slated for Year 24, unless of course the Fury in this arc is the LMD. 

These last analyses will get us that much closer to completeness, but it looks like we still won't have a complete rundown on the pre-HOM period. I suspect that CA5 15-17 will end up occurring before Crossbones ends up in the Raft, where he is in A4 1. I snagged two issues (#1 and #3) of Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her, and with Fury here as head of SHIELD and Yelena here before her disfigurement, it looks like this mini-series will end up getting inserted in the calendar at a later date. 

I'll try to make note of these kinds of things in the revised intro.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 11:15 pm    
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Issue 6 of Daredevil: Father still hasn't come out yet, as far as I can tell. Or did I just miss it? 
<<<

Surprise! It's been delayed until April. 

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=a1adbd33df37c7123362d68bfd1db6d9&threadid=58394

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:50 am    
By Col_Fury

I tried, but I couldn't find an issue of Machine Teen 4. But I was able to find NYX 6, so there's that. 

I'm going to leave Hulk 88-91 for Kevin. I think it's far enough in the future to not have to worry about it for this calendar, and besides, I need to let my brains rest for a few days. Hope you don't mind, Kevin. 

It's time for sleep!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 06:58 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I tried, but I couldn't find an issue of Machine Teen 4.  
<<<

Thanks for trying, Col_Fury. shandrakor, will you be able to get an analysis of this comic submitted?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 12:42 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Thanks for trying, Col_Fury. 
<<<

I do what I can.  I'm going to try one more shop for Machine Teen 4, so cross your fingers. But in the meantime, don't forget about Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame.  

-edit- 
As luck would have it, I found Machine Teen 4 in my last attempt. And in the bargain bin, no less!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 08:24 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I'm going to leave Hulk 88-91 for Kevin. I think it's far enough in the future to not have to worry about it for this calendar, and besides, I need to let my brains rest for a few days. Hope you don't mind, Kevin. 
<<<


No problem.  Though I won't be able to get Hulk 88-91 done before this weekend, (I'm suffering from a cold and am feeling pretty brain dead myself).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 10:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Though I won't be able to get Hulk 88-91 done before this weekend 
<<<

Don't sweat it, Kevin. From all indications, this story arc will postdate the current calendar. The only thing that's really needed at this point is Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 11:20 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The only thing that's really needed at this point is Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame. 
<<<

Then you'll be glad to hear that Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame has been up for almost two days. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Feb 2006 06:48 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Then you'll be glad to hear that Kitty Pryde: Shadow & Flame has been up for almost two days.  
<<<

Yikes! How did I miss that?  

Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 01:48 pm    Post subject: Gambit v4 #1-6
By jephyork
Director

Gambit v4 #1-6 
House of Cards 
by John Layman, Georges Jeanty and Roger Robinson 


Gambit v4 #1 
House of Cards, part I: the Prodigal Sinner 

Appearances: 
Gambit 
Orlean Cooper 
Dan Down 
Camille (Madame Camille) DAubigne 
Genevieve (Ginny) DAubigne 
Jack (Fast Jack) Jessup 
Alphonse 
Lili Penrose 

Synopsis: 
In Baton Rogue, Gambit destroys a Sentinel that two good ol boys from a garage had rebuilt with monster truck parts. He then barters his silence about the embarrassing incident for their motorcycle, and finishes his trip to New Orleans in style. Upon arrival, he meets his old friend Dan Down, a psychic who gets messages through playing cards. Dan warns him that the cards have been sending bad signals all week, but Gambit dismisses him, and heads out on his date  a meeting with a woman named Lili Penrose, who wants to hire him to steal a deck of cards. Meanwhile, club owner Orlean Cooper wants to hire Gambit to steal the cards as well, and fires the thief he had previously hired, Fast Jack Jessup. Jack vows that hell steal the cards anyway, and will kill Gambit if he gets in the way 

Notes: 

- When Gambit arrives in New Orleans, a street sign is advertising the Orlean Geco Festival, which seems to be the usual type of street fair with beads and music that New Orleans is known for. Is the Geco Festival a real event? Does it have a typical calendar date? 

- Also, as usual we see a full moon here. Ive listed all the calendar and weather references together at the end of the synopsis section, along with a layout of the passage of time. 

-------- 

Gambit v4 #2 
House of Cards, part II: Players Club 

Appearances: 
Iron Man, BTS (one of the security detail states Tony Starks explicit orders to him) 
Gambit 
Camille DAubigne, BTS (gave Gambit info in exchange for a stolen disc) 
Genevieve DAubigne, BTS (compiled the info Camille gave Gambit) 
Dan Down 
Jack Jessup 
Orlean Cooper 

Appearances, FB (7-11) 
Camille DAubigne 
Gambit 
Genevieve DAubigne 

Shown on monitors in FB  unsure if live feed or prerecorded: 
the Punisher (skulking around a corner) 
Wolverine (out of costume, reading a magazine at a newsstand) 
Rogue (several clips at once, therefore at least all but one prerecorded  generic battle shots) 

Synopsis: 
Gambit steals a disc from a Stark International ship. As the security guards chase him, we learn through a flashback that hes trading the disc to Madame Camille, an information broker who has hidden cameras everywhere, in exchange for data on Morgan Penrose. Morgan is Lilis uncle, and the current holder of the cards Lili hired Gambit to steal. Gambit eludes Starks security and makes his way back to New Orleans, where he picks up the information on Morgan and begins to plan the heist with Dan Down. Elsewhere, Jack Jessup is also scouting Morgans estate, planning a heist of his own. That night, Dan takes Gambit gambling, where Dan explains that the more he sacrifices to his playing cards  the bigger a pot he folds on  the stronger the vision he receives. He and Gambit both fold on a large pot, and a vision of a demon flashes before them. Dan realizes that theyre not stealing playing cards  theyre stealing tarot cards! Meanwhile, in Orlean Coopers office, Cooper finalizes a deal with a familiar-looking demon 

Notes: 

- The FB sequence occurs five hours before the disc-stealing scene  so therefore between #1-2. Its morning in the FB, and yet the sky is dark and the moon is low in the sky five hours later (meaning, no later than 4:59pm) in the disc-stealing scene. This might indicate a calendar placement in fall or winter, where it gets dark before 5pm. 

Pp.1-16 occur the day and evening after issue #1 (Gambits meeting with Lili is referred to as last night), and it looks like pp.17-22 occur the following day and evening (a nighttime sky is seen on p.16, and a daytime sky is seen on p.17). 

- Gambit makes reference to stealing from the tech company that bankrolls the Avengers. He uses the present tense, which might indicate that the Avengers are active at this point. Issues #4 and 6 tell us that this arc occurs after X #165 (more on that later), and weve previously shown X #165 to occur after A #503, where the Avengers are grievously wounded  but not yet publicly disbanded. Gambits present-tense comment might indicate that this arc occurs either before the Avengers officially disband in A:FINALE (three months after A #503), or after the New Avengers are founded (which Gambit would have known about through Wolverine well before they officially go public). 

- I believe that the monitor images of Wolverine and the Punisher are live feeds. Wolverine isnt doing anything particularly exciting or relevant  hes just reading a magazine at a newsstand, and I doubt Ginny would have pulled that clip up for a deliberate playback. Also, its on a small ancillary monitor, and Ginny seems to be doing most of her actual work on a main monitor in front of her. All the other monitors scattered around, therefore, are likely random live feeds that she can look at when she wants to. 

On the other hand, Ginny pulls up multiple images of Rogue only after shes brought up in conversation, so I think that all of those images are prerecorded. Ginny has a crush on Gambit, and apparently decided to do a little spying on his girlfriend. 

One of the monitor clips of Rogue shows her in her ReLoad costume, flying and shooting what appears to be fire. Although one might assume that this is a reference to her gaining Sunfires powers, this issue was published around the same time as Rogue v3 #3  presumably well before the editorial decision to give her Sunfires powers was made. The artist was probably just drawing a generic shot of Rogue using some stolen powers. 

However, I dont think shes absorbed any other fire-like powers since ReLoad. In fact, I can only think of one post-ReLoad instance where shes absorbed ANY energy-based powers  X #161, where she uses Polaris powers. Its possible that this is a miscolored clip from that sequence  in fact, she appears to be levitating on her own in this clip, not leaving a flying fire trail like Sunfire does. 

Id prefer NOT to assume that this clip is evidence for placing this arc after Rogue v3 #12. If things happen to fall that way, fine, but its quite likely that the artist was just drawing Rogue wielding random energy powers. 

-------- 

Gambit v4 #3 
House of Cards, part III: Sleight of Hand 

Appearances: 
Gambit 
Dan Down 
Morgan Penrose 
Brother Voodoo 
Lili Penrose 
Orlean Cooper 
Genevieve DAubigne, BTS (watching Gambit and Lili through the security cameras) 
Jack Jessup 

Synopsis: 

Morgan Penrose hosts a dinner party for New Orleans top occultists, and explains the origins of the Inficio Aquilus  possibly the worlds first tarot deck, created seven hundred years ago by monks who studied madmen. The deck contains four extra cards, with images so horrific that looking directly at them will burn out the viewers eyes. Gambit breaks into Morgans estate during the party, but as hes disabling the security cameras, hes interrupted by Lili  who seduces him into a quickie in the security office. A few minutes later he emerges, steals the cards, and leaves  just as someone reactivates the security cameras. Gambit meets up with Dan outside the estate, only to be ambushed from behind by Jack Jessup, who electrocutes him and steals the cards himself 

Notes: 

- The only character I can identify at Morgans dinner party is Brother Voodoo. Given that the party is supposed to consist of the Big Easys supernatural elite, its possible that others in attendance are preexisting characters, although I tend to doubt it. 

- Issue #5 reveals that Ginny saw Gambit and Lilis quickie through her camera network  and given that she has a big crush on Gambit and knew about his heist that night, she was probably watching him live when it happened  giving her a BTS for this issue. 

- The pair of hands that reactivate the security cameras are unidentifiable. They appear to be white and male, wearing at least one thick leather wristband. I assume theyre meant to be Jack Jessups, but they dont match up to the fingerless gloves he wears outside. The only other characters available to reactivate the cameras are Lili (she was last seen in the security office) and perhaps Genevieve (out of spite?), but it doesnt look like the artist was trying to draw female hands. Im going to assume they were meant to be Jessups hands. 

-------- 

Gambit v4 #4 
House of Cards, part 4: Bet Your Life 

Appearances: 
Morgan Penrose 
Orlean Cooper 
Alphonse 
Gambit 
Dan Down 
Jack Jessup 
Lili Penrose 
Wolverine 

Appearances, FB (1p1-3) 
Gambit 

Synopsis: 
A furious Morgan Penrose shows Orlean Cooper the security footage of Gambit stealing the cards. Cooper introduces him to Alphonse, his right-hand man and a top-ranking member of the Assassins Guild, who has already spread the word to every hired goon in New Orleans  Gambit is to be killed! Meanwhile, Gambit plays cards with Dan in the middle of a pile of defeated supervillains. Dan gets a flash from the cards that it was Jack Jessup who ambushed them both last night, and Gambit begins to plan a way to get the tarot deck back. Jessup is trying to reach Cooper to sell him the cards, but Cooper isnt picking up his phone. In his office, hes joined by Lili, and its revealed that theyre working together 

Gambit, posing as a hot dog vendor, lifts the cards from Jessups bag  but as he and Dan walk away, they are ambushed by Alphonse and one of his thugs. Gambit tries to charge the tarot cards and throw them at Alphonse, but they wont hold a kinetic charge  theyre indestructible! Alphonse and the thug begin to beat Gambit, and Dan flees. Dan goes to Gambits apartment, where he asks the cards for help. They spell out a phone number, but as he dials it, Jack Jessup kicks the door in looking for his cards. Jessup strangles Dan with the phone cord as, on the other end of the line, a puzzled Wolverine listens 

Notes: 

- Yes, this issues title deviates from the roman numeral format. Just this one issue. I dont know why. 

- The flashback on p.1 panels 1-3 is a security video of Gambit stealing the tarot cards. Panel 2 repeats issue #3 p.19 panel 7, but panels 1 and 3 are new, and occur directly before and after that panel: 

GAM4 3 (19p5-6)  the security cameras are re-enabled. 
GAM4 4-FB (1p1)  Gambit is caught on tape approaching the glass case. 
GAM4 3 (19p7)  Gambit picks the lock. 
GAM4 4-FB (1p3)  Gambit holds the cards in his hand. 

- Dan Down cheats at cards! During their game of Go Fish, Gambit asks him if he has any fours or sixes, and he says no  but we clearly see the four of hearts and six of clubs in his hand. Bad Dan! 

- None of the defeated supervillains look familiar to me  I assume that the artist just made them all up for the scene, but if anyone sharper-eyed than me recognizes anyone, please let me know. 

- the events of #3 are referred to as last night. 

- Gambit makes a reference to having been blind (Blind, huh? I hate when that happens), putting this story arc after X #165, the issue where his blindness is cured. 

- Wolverine complains that Dan has called during the O.C., making this a Thursday night. (This issue was published in November 2004, around the same time the O.C. switched to Thursdays.) By the way, according to Dans cards, the X-Mens phone number is 845-555-9636  and 9-6-3-6 spells out X-M-E-N on a phone keypad. Clever! 

-------- 

Gambit v4 #5 
House of Cards, part V: Celebrity Poker 

Appearances: 
Gambit 
Alphonse 
Wolverine 
Jack Jessup 
Orlean Cooper 
Stone IV 
Camille DAubigne 
Genevieve DAubigne 
Dan Down, dead, BTS (Logan tells Gambit that he found Dans corpse) 

Synopsis: 
While Alphonse presents Cooper with the tarot deck, Wolverine rescues Gambit from Stone, a hired goon who has been torturing him all morning. He takes Gambit to Madame Camilles to recover, and explains that when he arrived in New Orleans he found Dan dead at Gambits apartment. The two of them hatch a plan to scare Alphonse into betraying Cooper  using props and costumes, they impersonate the entire X-Men team and spend all afternoon busting up Coopers underworld operations. As Cooper prepares for a midnight ceremony involving the tarot deck, Alphonse panics and, afraid of being killed by the X-Men, brings the deck back to Gambit. Gambit asks Alphonse for one more favor, and prepares to avenge Dans death with the final phase of his scheme 

Notes: 

- The Stone character torturing Gambit here is not the similar-looking mutant thug who captured him last issue  that character had two small antennae. This character is the fourth to carry the name Stone  the first two are in the MCP, and the third, a hound from X-Factor issues circa #137-143, isnt in yet. 

- Wolverine remarks that he got a midnight call from Dan, which conflicts with his complaint last issue that Dan called during the O.C.. (From the context of his quote last issue, its pretty clear he was watching it live  his full quote is Better not be another flamin telemarketer. I told ya once already about callin during the O.C..) Im just going to assume that Wolverine was just using lazy language in this issue, and Dans call came in very late into the show. 

- Gambit has been tortured for the last eight hours following his capture, so this looks to be the day after #4. The red sky during his rescue must be morning, because later sequences in this issue, occurring the same day, are given as 2:33pm to 6:26 pm. 

Wolverine wears his ReLoad costume with diamonds on the legs in this issue  although it looks like the diamonds were added by the colorist, not drawn by the artist. Personally, I dont see the leg-diamonds as a large enough variation to consider it a placement clue, and I dont recommend trying to corral all of Logans appearances wearing it (W3 #20-31, this issue, and SENTRY2 #1) into the same timeframe. The diamonds are just something certain artists like to draw on him  just like the way his gloves and boots switch back and forth from ReLoads black-with-buckles to classic blue, or the way his cowl changes sizes these days. 

-------- 

Gambit v4 #6 
House of Cards, conclusion: Backstabbers Rhapsody 

Appearances: 
Gambit 
Lili Penrose 
Morgan Penrose, dead 
Camille DAubigne, BTS (calling the police on Gambits behalf) 
Genevieve DAubigne, BTS (watching Gambit on a monitor) 
Detective Noreen Tanaka 
Detective (Freddie) Fredrickson 

Appearances, FB (4-15) 
Wolverine 
Gambit 
Camille DAubigne 
Genevieve DAubigne 
Orlean Cooper 
Jack Jessup 

Appearances, FB-FB (8p2) 
Gambit 
Alphonse 

Appearances, FB (19p7) 
Gambit 
Wolverine 

Synopsis: 
Gambit is mystically bound, floating over a pentagram as Lili Penrose prepares to cut his heart out. She wanted him to steal the cards so she could gain their power, but she needs a human sacrifice to complete the spell. She asks Gambit to explain how he took care of Cooper and Jessup, and he explains through flashbacks 

After Wolverine departs Madame Camilles with a bandaged face, telling Gambit not to ask him any more favors, Gambit, Camille and Ginny tune in to watch Coopers midnight ceremony on their security camera network. Cooper summons three demons, reveals that hes a demon himself, and tries to bind them to his service using the tarot deck  but when the case is open, all thats inside is Uno cards. (In FB-FB we see that this was the favor that Gambit asked Alphonse last issue.) The demons rebel, burning off Coopers face  and in his anger, he blames the thief he scorned for the card switch  Jack Jessup. Camille tells Gambit to warn Jessup, saying not even he deserves to be attacked by a demon  but when Gambit goes to Jessups apartment, Jessup taunts him about killing Dan  and Gambit decides to leave him to his fate. Cooper shows up just as Gambit leaves, heading for Lilis, and screams fill the air 

Back in the present day, Lili reveals that she killed her uncle, and tries to gouge out Gambits heart  but her blade bends on something beneath his shirt. Ripping it off, she begins to scream as her face boils and her eyes burn  and we learn that Gambit had taped one of the four unviewable tarot cards to his chest. (In flashback, we see Logan, his face similarly scarred, handing the card to Gambit, who assures him that his eyes will grow back  this is the favor Logan was referring to earlier.) As she writhes in pain, her binding spell fades, freeing Gambit, who pours hydrochloric acid on the cards and says that hell take them to the X-Men, who hopefully can destroy them. As Gambit leaves the estate, the police arrive, surrounding him. Charging some cards, Gambit strikes a pose and a cocky smile 

The End. 

Notes: 

- The first flashback, pp.4-15, occurs between issues #5-6. However, within this flashback is another flashback (sloppy storytelling!, says Monkey Joe). That FB-FB, p.8 panel 2, occurs during issue #5. It repeats Gambits first word balloon from #5 p.21 panel 5 almost word-for-word, but adds some information to the scene  it reveals that Gambit gave Alphonse the Uno cards to plant in Coopers office. Gambit continues to speak in the original panel from #5, further dialogue thats not repeated in this FB-FB  so the FB-FB, technically occurring *during* the original panel, is best represented by an MCP listing just *before* it, rather than after it. 

Wolverine is standing off-panel watching Gambit hand Alphonse the cards in this FB-FB, so Ive included him BTS. 

The second flashback, p.19 panel 7, featuring a blind Logan handing Gambit the tarot card, occurs between the end of issue #5 and the start of the first FB on pp.4-15. All in all, the flashback sequences should go: 

GAM4 5 (1-21p4)  the bulk of #5. 
GAM4 6-FB-FB (8p2)  Gambit hands Alphonse the cards, and repeats the first part of his dialogue from #5 (21p5). 
GAM4 5 (21p5-22p4)  Gambit asks Alphonse to do him one last favor, and #5 ends. 
GAM4 6-FB (19p7)  Wolverine locates the unviewable card, burning out his eyes. 
GAM4 6-FB (4-15)  Gambit sets Cooper and Jessup against one another. 
GAM4 6  Gambit foils Lilis attempt to sacrifice him. 

The midnight break, as far as I can see, is between the end of #5 and #6-FB (4-15). At the start of that FB, Gambit tunes into Coopers ceremony, which was said to be occurring at midnight last issue  so although the first few panels of the FB may technically occur at 11:59 or so, its probably easiest to place the entire thing just after midnight. 

- We actually see the card that causes Lili to go blind, on-panel. Its called Incognizable, and its a shapeless tentacled creature. Its not so bad-looking. It might make a cute stuffed toy. 

- In the flashback where Wolverines eyes have been burned out by the tarot card, Gambit says you aint the only person ever been blind, you know  another reference to Gambits blindness, and another indication that this arc occurs after X #165, where his blindness is cured. (By the way, from this issue it looks like Wolverine can grow back both his eyes within about four hours. Wow.) 

-------- 

And now, a quick wrap-up of all the time-passage and placement clues: 

Temporal references: 

Day 1 - #1  one day and evening in New Orleans. The Geco festival. Full moon, cloudless sky. Shorts and short-sleeved or light long-sleeved shirts on passersby. Monday. 

Day 2 - #2 pp.7-11, 1-6, 12-16  one morning, afternoon and evening in New Orleans. Full moon and light clouds in the afternoon. Dark before 5pm  fall or winter? Short-sleeved or light long-sleeved shirts. Tuesday. 

Day 3 - #2 pp.17-22, #3  one day and evening in New Orleans. Light clouds in the daytime, full moon at night. Short-sleeved or light long-sleeved shirts. Wednesday. 

Day 4 - #4  one day and evening in New Orleans. Short-sleeved or light long-sleeved shirts. The O.C. is on, so its Thursday. 

Day 5 - #5, #6-FB-FB, #6-FB (19p7)  one morning, afternoon and evening in New Orleans. Short-sleeved or light long-sleeved shirts. Friday. 

Day 6 - #6-FB (4-15), #6  just after midnight (very early morning) and evening of the same day, in New Orleans. Full moon and light clouds in early morning (meaning, night of day 5), full moon again in evening. Saturday. 

Placement clues: 

References in #4 and #6 place this arc after X #165 (and therefore after A #503). Gambits present-tense use of Starks bankrolling the Avengers might indicate a placement before A:FINALE, or potentially after A4 #1  although Id vote for before A:FINALE, as that better fits with publication order. Rogue is drawn wielding what looks like fire, but I do *not* believe that to be a clue that this arc occurs after ROGUE3 #12. 

-------- 

And now, the obligatory MCP-style roundup: 


BROTHER VOODOO / DANIEL and JERICHO DRUMM 
*GAM4 3 

*COOPER, ORLEAN 
GAM4 1 
GAM4 2 
GAM4 3 
GAM4 4 
GAM4 5 
GAM4 6-FB 

*DAUBIGNE, MME. CAMILLE 
GAM4 1 
GAM4 2-FB 
GAM4 2-BTS 
GAM4 5 
GAM4 6-FB 
GAM4 6-BTS 

*DAUBIGNE, GENEVIEVE GINNY 
GAM4 1 
GAM4 2-FB 
GAM4 2-BTS 
GAM4 3-BTS 
GAM4 5 
GAM4 6-FB 
GAM4 6-BTS 

*DOWN, DAN 
GAM4 1 
GAM4 2 
GAM4 3 
GAM4 4 
GAM4 5-BTS 

*FREDRICKSON, DET. FREDDIE 
GAM4 6 

GAMBIT / REMY LEBEAU 
*GAM4 1 
*GAM4 2-FB 
*GAM4 2 
*GAM4 3 (1-19p6) 
*GAM4 4-FB (1p1) 
*GAM4 3 (19p7) 
*GAM4 4-FB (1p3) 
*GAM4 3 (20-22) 
*GAM4 4 
*GAM4 5 (1-21p4) 
*GAM4 6-FB-FB (8p2) 
*GAM4 5 (21p5-22p4) 
*GAM4 6-FB (19p7) 
*GAM4 6-FB (4-15) 
*GAM4 6 

IRON MAN / ANTHONY TONY STARK 
*GAM4 2-BTS 

*JESSUP, JACK FAST JACK 
GAM4 1 
GAM4 2 
GAM4 3 
GAM4 4 
GAM4 5 
GAM4 6-FB 

*PENROSE, LILI 
GAM4 1 
GAM4 3 
GAM4 4 
GAM4 6 

*PENROSE, MORGAN 
GAM4 3 
GAM4 4 
GAM4 6 

PUNISHER / FRANCIS CASTIGLIONE / FRANK CASTLE 
*GAM4 2-FB 

*STONE IV 
GAM4 5 

*TANAKA, DET. NOREEN 
GAM4 6 

WOLVERINE / JAMES HOWLETT / LOGAN 
 
*GAM4 2-FB 
*GAM4 4 
*GAM4 5 (1-21p4) 
*GAM4 6-FB-FB-BTS (8p2) 
*GAM4 5 (21p5-22p4) 
*GAM4 6-FB (19p7) 
*GAM4 6-FB (4-15) 

And, for all that he was an endearing character, he never did receive a last name, so I dont know if well be including a chronology for: 

*ALPHONSE 
GAM4 1 
GAM4 4 
GAM4 5 (1-21p4) 
GAM4 6-FB-FB 
GAM4 5(21p5-22p4)

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2006 10:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Jeph.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Feb 2006 07:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
GAM4 3 (19p5-6)  the security cameras are re-enabled. 
GAM4 4-FB (1p1)  Gambit is caught on tape approaching the glass case. 
GAM4 3 (19p7)  Gambit picks the lock. 
GAM4 4-FB (1p3)  Gambit holds the cards in his hand.  
<<<

Jeph, what page/panel range of GAM4 3 follows the sequence above? 
GAM4 3 (20-21)? 
GAM4 3 (20-22)? 
GAM4 3 (20-23)? 
GAM4 3 (19p8-21)? 
GAM4 3 (19p8-22)? 
GAM4 3 (19p8-23)? 
Something else?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Feb 2006 07:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Gambit makes reference to stealing from the tech company that bankrolls the Avengers. He uses the present tense, which might indicate that the Avengers are active at this point. Issues #4 and 6 tell us that this arc occurs after X #165 (more on that later), and weve previously shown X #165 to occur after A #503, where the Avengers are grievously wounded  but not yet publicly disbanded. Gambits present-tense comment might indicate that this arc occurs either before the Avengers officially disband in A:FINALE (three months after A #503), or after the New Avengers are founded (which Gambit would have known about through Wolverine well before they officially go public).  
<<<

I'm opting for this mini-series occurring after A4 6, with Gambit knowing about Stark International bankrolling the (New) Avengers from Logan. A 503 occurs before Halloween, and A:FINALE "three months" later. That places A:FINALE no later than January (I have it in December, before X 165 actually). I thought briefly about rearranging things and placing GAM4 in a slot in winter between UX 465 and a moved A:FINALE. That would address the whole short day depiction in GAM4 2. But then I thought two things: 

1) Even the shortest day of the year is more than five hours long in the lower 48 of the U.S. It's obvious that the art depiction and the narrative reference to "five hours" are at odds in GAM4 2 and is thus suspect. 

2) Consider that GAM4 7-9 follow closely on the heels of GAM4 1-6 and that there is a reference in GAM4 8 to 95-degree weather in New Orleans. That places this mini-series in summer, not winter. Thus we're talking about the summer of the year after the Christmas of X 165, and that brings us to a point after the formation of the New Avengers "six months" after A:FINALE.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Feb 2006 08:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
what page/panel range of GAM4 3 follows the sequence above? 
<<<

Check out Gambit's MCP-style listing at the end -- it's (20-22). 

By the way, I didn't claim that GAM4 #2 contained only five hours of daylight -- just that it was dark, and the moon was up, "five hours" after "morning". If Gambit said it was "morning" at 11:59am, that would place the nighttime scenes at 4:59pm -- and I'm fairly sure it gets dark that early in wintertime in New Orleans. 

If you'd prefer to regard the "95-degree weather" comment as more influential for your calendar, and place it after A4 #6, that's fine. But for MCP purposes, I'd recommend keeping it closer to its publication date, and placing it *shortly* after X #165 and shortly *before* A:FINALE. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2006 06:50 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
But for MCP purposes, I'd recommend keeping it closer to its publication date, and placing it *shortly* after X #165 and shortly *before* A:FINALE.  
<<<

Publication order's a tricky thing on which to rely, given that story arcs of many issues may involve little Marvel Time, while large gaps may exist between other issues. I've placed GAM4 1-12 between X 170 and 171, so while GAM4 1 was published several months before X 170, GAM4 12 was published the same month as X 172. So it generally evens out in the big picture. 

I'd prefer to go with the 95-degree reference of GAM4 8 as opposed to the dark skies within five hours of morning in GAM4 12 because the summer reference is more specific and explicit. Maybe it was overcast late in the afternoon in GAM4 2? (I love it when references don't match up, like when full moons are depicted in scenes of a story set two weeks apart.) 

Thanks for clarifying the references, Jeph. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2006 12:50 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Maybe it was overcast late in the afternoon in GAM4 2? 
<<<

That couldn't be it, because the full moon is clearly visible in the sky. But, you know, it's your calendar, go with what you want. 

The reason I look to publication order so often is that it's generally a good indicator of what writers mean when they make certain remarks. For example: GAM4 #2, with the Avengers reference, was published around the time of A #502 -- so it seems likely to me that the writer was referencing the old Avengers team, not the New Avengers. 

Now, if we had a more concrete reference in a later issue that actively contradicted that -- something that definitively placed the entire arc after A:FINALE -- than I'd be all right with re-interpreting the reference in #2 to mean something other than what the writer intended. 

But, in the absence of a more concrete reference to a later period -- my preference is to try to let the intent of this reference stand. In this case, to place GAM4 #1-6 during a time when the old Avengers are still active. 

Aside from the "95-degree weather" comment, I don't see any chronological obstacles to placing GAM4 #1-10 where I'm suggesting. 

(It should also be noted that it's not completely necessary to place GAM4 #1-12 in one slot. #1-10 are held together pretty tightly, but Gambit returns to the X-Mansion in #10 -- and he could appear in several other books before returning to New Orleans in #11.) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2006 07:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph, I'll leave placement where I have it and it will appear that way in the new calendar. When it's posted, take a look and let me know if things just don't look right from the standpoint of in-story references.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2006 10:23 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Sounds good.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 08 Feb 2006 11:42 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Daredevil: Father #3-5
By Kevin W.
Director

Sorry for the delay on this... 

Daredevil: Father #3-5 
Written and Drawn by Joe Quesada 

Its been a while since my last analysis, so it might help to reread my anaylsis for Issues #1 and 2. My analysis for #2 can be found here: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1673 

Also, there was a interview with Joe Quesada a couple months back in regards to the Daredevil: Father miniseries, which can be found here: 

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=42ee3e54909ee571d82629494f0d2681&threadid=53817&highlight=Daredevil+father 

Theres a quote in that story which confirms what the issues are basically showing: 

That this is indeed during the one year gap. 

The quote is as follows: Remember, this story takes place during the continuity window right after DD proclaims himself the Kingpin and hes probably a bit less tolerant and trusting than in the past, which is actually a big understatement). So, hes looking for a little payback for what they did. Remember, at this point, hes the Kingpin, and he cant have word get out that someone mopped the floor with him  which they did in issue #3, and he kindly returned the favor in issue #4. 

So this has to occur after DD2 #50. I suspect its early into the one year gap, after the 6 week period in which Matt cleaned up Hells Kitchen. Matts not concerned about what happens outside of Hells Kitchen, (as hes the Kingpin with his own territory now), and that reflects the state of mind Matt was in prior to DD2 56-60. 

But Matt isnt supposed to wear his costume during the one year gap! Well, he only wears his costume in a few key scenes, (in Issue #2, he goes out on patrol simply because he cant sleep, not because theres any crime in Hells Kitchen). He doesnt really wear his costume at all in Issues #3-5. So maybe he is trying to keep a low profilebut still, he is indeed wearing his costume during the one year gap in this miniseries 

Also, Matt doesnt have a goatee during this miniseries, (like he supposedly did during the one year gap)but we already know Matt shaved it off for his weddingso its probably that the goatee comes and goes as Matt pleases, (maybe this is early after the 6 weeks that Matt spent cleaning up Hells Kitchen), and thus Matt hasnt settled on the goatee look yet. 

And then there is the tricky question of where the heck is Milla Donovan? Shes nowhere around, yet theyre supposed to be together during this period, (they even get married during the one year gap). Maybe shes out of town on business when this occursthats the only thing I can figure out. 

Daredevil: Father #3 
Chapter 3: Orisha 
Written and Drawn by Joe Quesada 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Sean Farrell 
Maggie Farrell 
Foggy Nelson 

The Santerians: 
Eleggua, (aka Nestor Nero Rodriguez) 
Chango 
Oya 
Ogun 
Oshun 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-10: Picks up right where we left off last issue. Matt has been attacked by the Santerians, a new group of superheroes in NYC, (their powers are magical/voodoo in origin). The leader of the Santerians, (Eluggua) says that Matt the Kingpin has cleaned up crime in Hells Kitchen, but hes simply pushed all of the crime into other districts. Eluggua then asks Matt what hes going to do about Johnny Sockets, and Matt says nothing, since Johnny Sockets isnt killing people in Hells Kitchen. Eluggua calls Matt a fake, and they fight. The Santerians beat up Matt and leave him alone. Matt wakes up in the alley later on, and stepping out onto the street, he hears word that Johnny Sockets has struck again 

Pgs. 11-32: The next day. Matt stays home from work and spends the day recovering from his wounds. He calls up Maggie and Sean Farrell, (his latest clients) and asks Maggie to meet him tomorrow. That night he goes out and tracks down the Santerians, (who are out on patrol), and he starts to battle them again, (to show them who the boss of Hells Kitchen is). 

References: 

Pg. 1: Eleggua says, (to Matt), It takes major cojones to sue a tabloid for revealing your secret identity. That happened in DD#36 and #37. Just another clue that this is set in the present day. 

Pg. 11: Matt calls up Foggy and says, Foggy, cancel all my appointments for today. 

If Matt had appointments at his law firm today, then its most likely sometime during the week, and not on the weekend, (lawyers dont often work on the weekend in the office). 

Pgs. 13-18: There is a dream sequence flashback on these pages, showing a montage of images, but as its a dream sequence, I dont believe these are real events the way the happened in Matts childhood, (its more like a nightmare). 

Daredevil: Father #4 
Chapter 4: Street Angels 
Written and Drawn by Joe Quesada 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Sean Farrell 
Maggie Farrell 
Foggy Nelson 
Randy Firkandi, (a news reporter on TV) 
Candy Cotton, (a news reporter on TV) 
Coco Dior, (a news reporter on TV) 
Police Commissioner Chris Gonzalez, (the Detective from DD: Father #2apparently hes been elevated to Police Commissioner since the old Commissioner resigned in Issue #2). 

The Santerians: 
Eleggua (aka Nestor Nero Rodriguez) 
Chango 
Oya 
Ogun 
Oshun 

New characters: 
Barry Fling, (a parady of Larry King) 
Stanley Pheiffer, (the latest victim of Johnny Sockets) 

In flashback: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Kingpin, (Wilson Fisk) 
Hector Rodriguez 

The Santerians: 

Eleggua aka Nestor Nero Rodriguez 
Chango 
Oya 
Ogun 
Oshun, (all as kidsback then, they were known as the Street Angels) 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-9: Picks up right where we left off last issue. Daredevil battles the Santerians again, this time defeating them. They call a truce and go their separate ways. 

Pgs. 10-28:The next day. Matt meets up with Maggie Farrell in a park, to discuss her lawsuit. Matt brings up her husband Sean again, and flat out asks her if shes being abused by Sean, (she has bruises on her, as if shes been in a struggle). She denies it and fires Matt. 

Cut to that night. Johnny Sockets kills his latest victim, (a man named Stanley Pheiffer). At Neros residence, Nero is watching the evening news again. Barry Fling is interviewing the new Police Commissioner Chris Gonzalez about the Johnny Sockets crimewave. 

Daredevil breaks into Neros residence and says hes figured out that Nero is Eleggua, leader of the Santerians. He says he figured it out after shaking hands with Eleggua last night, and catching the scent of Neros personal cologne, (which Matt remembers from having met Nero in person at fundraisers). Daredevil asks why Nero fights crime, and Nero explains all in a flashback, (detailed below). Nero asks Daredevil to help catch Johnny Sockets, and Daredevil leaves, refusing to help. 

As the issue ends, on Neros TV, we see Randy Firkandi, Candy Cotton, Coco Dior, (all news reporters from Issue #2) discuss the breaking news that the police might have a suspect in the Johnny Sockets case 

References: 

Pg. 9: Eleggua says to Daredevil, You know, for a guy who just won a lawsuit against a tabloid for falsely claiming that hes a superhero, you sure are a trusting man. 

That would be a reference to the lawsuit Matt filed against the Daily Globe, back around DD2 36. It was never stated in Bendiss comic that Matt won that lawsuit, (I thought it was dropped after the death of the Daily Globes publisher in DD2 41 or 42), but I guess it was resolved in Matts favor. 

Pg. 16: Neros secretary tells him, I just came to remind you about the Stark fundraiser tonight. To which he tells his secretary to tell them he wont be able to make it. So Tony Stark, (or his company) is having some sort of fundraiser on this night 

Pg. 21-25p4: FB- Nero explains how his father truly died to Matt. In this flashback, we see a young Nero leading the Street Angels, (his gang of kids dedicated to crime prevention). Theyre on a stake out outside of a warehouse, and Nero sends the others away to go get the police, while he sneaks inside the warehouse. Inside, he finds a bunch of thugs holding a meeting with Wilson Fisk, the Kingpin. Also in attendance is Hector Rodriguez, Neros dad and a city councilman, (whos apparently corrupt). The Kingpin orders Hector to kill his son, for spying on this meeting, but Hector turns around and starts to shoot at Fisk instead. But Fisks men kill Hector and leave, (and they leave young Nero alive). Daredevil, (in his yellow costume) then bursts in through a window, to find only the body of Hector and young Nero 

As Daredevil appears here in his yellow costume, this is in Daredevils early days. As Fisk appears here as well, Id say this is before Amazing Spider-man #50, the first appearance of the Kingpin, (this is perhaps when Fisk was just starting to come to powerbut its also around when Daredevil was in his yellow costumeIm not sure how well that lines up). 

Pg. 25p5: FB- This one panel is a continuation of the flashback, but occurs a few days later. Young Nero is burning all of his fathers documents, anything that might show he was involved with the Kingpin. Nero keeps his fathers crimes a secret, but uses this revelation to go on a quest to become a superhero. 

Pg. 27: Nero holds up todays Daily Bugle headline, which reads, Johnny Sockets Strikes! Theres a smaller headline below that, which reads, Mets slide continues. That would seem to indicate this occurs during Baseball season. 

Daredevil: Father #5 
Chapter 5: Heeeeeeres Johnny! 
Written and Drawn by Joe Quesada 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Sean Farrell 
Maggie Farrell 
Foggy Nelson 
Eleggua (aka Nestor Nero Rodriguez) 

New characters: 
Agent Guida, (an F.B.I. agent) 

In flashback: 

Eleggua aka Nestor Nero Rodriguez 

Synopsis: 

1-4p2: This is a flashback, which is detailed below in the References section. 

4p3-25: The next day after the end of last issue. Matt is at his office when an FBI agent named Agent Guida barges in and demands to speak with Matt. He tells Matt that the FBI has received its first lead in the Johnny Sockets case: an old address book that belonged to Matt. It contains the addresses of many of Matts former clients, and it turns out that all of the victims of Johnny Sockets were former clients of his. Matt figures out that this old address book was stolen from his office. 

The FBI agent pulls out the address book and gives it back to Matt, and says he came here to warn Matt the FBI might be paying him a visit soon, to ask him about the murders, (Guida says he owed Matt a favor). 

Matt examines the book, and picks up a familiar scent from it: its Sean Farrells cologne. Agent Guida leaves, and Matt calls up Maggie and tries to warn her, but Sean hangs up the phone on her. Matt has a limo driver take him to the Farrells house in New Jersey, but when he gets there, he breaks inside to find Sean bleeding to death, and talking about how he was always jealous of Matt, because Maggies always been fixated on Matt, (and its revealed that Maggie has a stalkers journal filled with pictures of Matt). Matt figures out that its Maggie, not Sean, who is the Johnny Sockets killer. Sean tells Matt that Maggie is heading to his law office. 

Matt hops back in his limo and races back to New York City. Meanwhile, Foggy has a visitor at the law office: Maggie has stopped by to see Matt, but seeing that Foggy is there alone, she drugs Foggy and prepares to pluck out Foggys eyes 

References: Theres a series of flashbacks on the first 4 pages: 

1p1: A shot of Hector Rodriguezs dead body, lying on the ground. 

1p2-1p3: This scene shows the funeral for Hector, which is held a few days later. Nero is approached by some sort of voodoo priest while at the funeral. 

1p4-4p2: Later on, this voodoo priest holds a ceremony with young Nero, granting Nero magical powers. 

Pg. 7: Agent Guida tells Matt, A couple of years ago, Daredevil saved my nieces life from some idiot dressed like a bullfighter. This is the reason that Agent Guida is helping Matt out. An idiot dressed like a bullfighter is probably Daredevils old nemesis the Matador. So Matt had a battle with the Matador a couple years ago 

Also, as of this issue, Matt finally figures out where hes seen Sean Farrell before now, (in Issue #1, he asked Sean, Have we ever met before now?, to which Sean replied no). Seans dad was the local meat butcher, whom Matts dad beat up. This was the first time that Matt saw his dad acting as a bully enforcer for the local crimelord, and its an image thats stuck with Matt all his life. Sean explains that the thrashing Jack Murdock gave his father made Seans father loose an eye. The image of Jack Murdock beating up the local butcher, (as witnessed through Matts eyes) was in Issue #1 of this miniseries, and has been a snapshot image popping up throughout this miniseriesand we learn its relevance here in this issue. Im uncertain, but this flashback image may have been shown in other, earlier Daredevil comics, (perhaps in Daredevil #1? When was it first shown that young Matt figured out his dad was an enforcer for the local crime boss?) 

And thats it for now. Issue #6 apparently will ship in April. Heres to hoping that the final issue doesnt screw everything up.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 01:25 am    
By JD

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Im uncertain, but this flashback image may have been shown in other, earlier Daredevil comics, (perhaps in Daredevil #1? When was it first shown that young Matt figured out his dad was an enforcer for the local crime boss?) 
<<<

I've looked at my Essential, and it's not in DD #1 (where the whole " Jack is an enforcer for the mob" angle is completely absent). 

After a glance at DD's chronology, I would suggest to look into DD:Yellow #1-2.

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 07:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Kevin. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Feb 2006 06:38 pm    
By Enda80

So far as I can discern, Daredevil the Man Without Fear introduced the idea of Jack Murdock as a mob enforcer, an idea later used by the movie from 2003. (Allegedly, MWF started as a treatment for a DD film, and Miller did not attempt to make it fit into Earth-616 when he turned into a comic.)

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Thread 44

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:38 pm    Post subject: Captain America: Heroes Reborn question
By wolframbane

In the Marvel Universe, Captain America was in suspended animation in a block of ice for decades before being found in modern times by the Avengers. Not having yet read Heroes Reborn, how did Captain America from the Franklinverse survive from WWII to modern day?

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 03:17 pm    
By Col_Fury

If I remember right... 

Steve was brainwashed at the end of WWII and served as a 'sleeper agent,' he fought in every war and police action America had(Korea, Vietnam, etc) up until the Present Day. He was given a false set of memories and a family,(he needed a civilian life between wars... for some reason) which I guess was switched up every so often to avoid people noticing that he wasn't aging. I think his family(wife and kids) were LMDs. And then, one day, he woke up. 

My memory of it is a little fuzzy, though.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 04:34 pm    
By wolframbane

That kind of makes sense, Cap unaging in the Franklinverse. Because in the original MU, Cap seemed to age normally (more accurately, there was no indication he did not age). He was probably in his 20s when he was frozen in 1945, and continued to age after he was frozen. But then he died in Onslaught, was reborn in the Franklinverse, where the Super Soldier treatment apparently gave him a degree of unaging longevity. So when he returned to the MU, he is now in his new unaging body. In the alternate futures of 1602 (president for Life) and Earth-X, he seems to be essentially unaging and young decades into th efuture.

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Thread 45

Posted: 08 Feb 2006 08:54 pm    Post subject: Can I brag?
By garbonzo

I don't know who else to tell. My wife won't understand. In fact she will probably be pissed. 

But, here goes.... 
I just bought Amazing Fantasy #15. Yes, volume 1. I was at the comic shop. The guy said that he had just brought in a copy of Amazing Fantasy 15 and it was going to go cheap. It is coverless, but still cool! I couldn't resist. 

Sory for the interruption, but this was too cool to resist! I hope you understand. 

garbonzo

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 09:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

No interruption at all. Congratulations! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 11:59 am    
By Starman

Out of curiosity, could you tell about the non-Spider-Man comics in it? I have occasionally wondered about them.
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:09 pm    
By garbonzo

Sure thing. 

Amazing Fantasy (and Amazing Adult Fantasy) were divided into 5 stories each issue. 

Stories 1 and 2 in this issue were the Spidey stories (part one is getting powers, part 2 is using the powers). 

The third story is a 3 page story that tells the tale of an old man who lives on an island. He is the island bell-ringer. He ringst the bells in the church every day (as did all of his ancestors). The bells also act as a lighthouse-type beacon. He is a respected member of the community. One day the volcano on the island begins to erupt. The town evacuates the island, but the old man rushes to the church to ring the bells (he must sound the alarm!). As the church is engulfed by the lava flow, a ray of light shines down from above and the man ascends to teh heavens. 

The fourth story is about a man on the run from the police. He hides in a museum. As the police chase him, he makes a deal with a mummy to hide inside the casket. The mummy agrees to hide the man and not reveal his hiding place to the authorities. the police look everywhere for the man (apparently they cannot see the mummy). When they leave, the mummy opens the casket. THe man is gone. He has been transported back to ancient Egypt where he is forced to work as a slave. 

The Fifth story is the only one I have seen reprinted. It is the story of an alien invasion. The man and woman in this story (husband and wife) are worried that they will be found and killed. There is wide-spread panic in the streets as everyone fears for their lives. The man tells the woman not to go out. It is not safe. the man goes to work. while he is gone, the woman realizes she needs something from the store. She figures it is safe because she will only be gone for a minute. When the man returns from work, the woman is missing. He knows she is dead. The last panel shows him flinging off his coat, revealing an extra set of arms. He and his wife were the aliens! (Great O. Henry ending!) They weren't worried about the aliens, they were worried about being killed by angry mobs! 

THere you go. Not much for the Chronology Project, but the stories are fun. 

As a side note, all the stories were Lee/Ditko collaborations. 

garbonzo

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:24 pm    
By Col_Fury

Congratulations garbonzo!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:35 pm    
By Somebody

What was the "Special Message to YOU - the reader - about the NEW Amazing", ooc? That HAS bugged me. 

Oh, and congrats 

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 04:54 pm    
By Ross

That is cool! Would it be uncouth to ask how much a coverless Amazing Fantasy #15 goes for?

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 05:30 pm    
By Starman

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
THere you go. Not much for the Chronology Project, but the stories are fun. 
<<<

Thank you, I appreciate it. I haven't read any of those before, but I like the ones of the old Marvel horror comics I have read. My favorite is the one from Uncanny Tales #3 where two crooks, Luke and Eddie, fight over their loot, and during the struggle the room is set on fire. A bullet from Eddie's gun graces Luke's head and he lose conciousness. The heat of the flames awakens him again, and he tries to get out of the housefire while being chased by someone who looks like Eddie. He runs around, trying to escape the man and avoid burning up. In the end he discovers that he can't escape, because he was already in Hell from the moment he woke up after the struggle. 
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 06:23 pm    
By garbonzo

Ross wrote: 
>>>
That is cool! Would it be uncouth to ask how much a coverless Amazing Fantasy #15 goes for? 
<<<

Well, I don't know how much one goes for, but I spent $320. Roughly 25% of GOOD book value. I don't know. Did I pay too much? 

I have been collecting for over 20 years. i have never seen a copy of Amazing Fantasy 15. The guy I bought it from has been a dealer for over 30 years. He has only seen a handful. On the one hand it is hard to believe that I have this book in my hand (well, actually in its cabinet). On the other hand there is a part of me that just wants to get rid of it ASAP before it becomes too good to be true. I'm not used to spending that much on a comic. I think my previous high comes in around $150 for a copy of Giant Size X-Men #1. Then it falls off dramatically from there. I am definately not one of those marquee book collector types. I never thought I would own a copy. I also don't think I will ever have FF#1 or Uncanny #1, or Action #1. 
I think that is the best part of this. It was a happy coincidence. I didn't plan on buying it. I just went out for sale that day. I wasn't planning on going to the comic shop. I just happened to be in the neighborhood. The comic wasn't in the case or on the wall. I overheard the shop owner talking to someone else about it. So many coincidences.

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 12:27 am    
By garbonzo

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
What was the "Special Message to YOU - the reader - about the NEW Amazing", ooc? That HAS bugged me. 

Oh, and congrats  
<<<

Thanks for the kind wishes. Sorry about the delay in responding. We have had some serious windstorms here that have related in power outages. 

The Special Message related to several changes that were happening with the title. First off, while they never specifically said that the title was ending, they did mention that the grind of trying to produce 5 quality stories every month was too much and they wanted to stop before the quality began to suffer. Second they addressed the name change. They wanted to drop the "ADULT" from the title because some of the teen-age readers had said they fealt uncomfortable buying a book that was written for adults. Lastly they wanted to say that spiderman (notice, no hyphen) would be appearing in future issues of Amazing Fantasy and if fans liked him they should write in and ask for longer and more frequent stories. 

All in all it was an interesting note from the editors considering the book was not going to be published any more. 

garbonzo
