	Marvel Universe Forum
1. It's coming...
2. Wolverine vs Winter Soldier
3. Captain America/Steve Rogers real name?
4. Moon Knight questions
5. IRON MAN #301 - #332
6. Classic X-men 22
7. Friendly Neighborhood Spider-man #5
8. New BTS Beyonder appearance
9. Spider-Man: House of M and Peter's diary
10. X-Men Unlimited #43
11. Missing Wolverine appearance
12. Uncanny X-Men Annual 10 and New Mutants 45
13. Official Handbook, Belasco notes
14. HOGARTH, JERYN omission
15. Malice III
16. Red Skull/Max notes
17. Golden Age Marvel Handbook
18. Wong Chu
19. Marvel Comics Presents #7
20. Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #18
21. Spider-Man and Power Pack

	Issue Analysis Forum
22. Review of Deadpool no.41-45 for calender
23. Marvel Team-Up v3 #15-18
24. Calendar; Punisher vs Bullseye 1-5
25. Calendar; Punisher: Bloody Valentine





Thread 1

Posted: 12 Feb 2006 07:57 pm    Post subject: It's coming...
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just an FYI...I'm working on a few final details to the revised calendar -- mostly the issue of post-HOM X-Men chronology. I plan to start sending Russ installments of the new calendar tomorrow. It may take all week to get them all submitted. Thanks for your patience.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Feb 2006 11:19 am    
By Jason Doty

Paul do you have rough estimates between what issues prior years take place (January, December) of the time before your calender starts and when your Avengers timeline ended. 

This way others could help in filling in the years and participate in this project with you and possibly for every six months the calender moves foward, six months could be placed in the past, having the calender always moving toward completion. 

You could post what analysis' you need and we could collectively work on it as a group with you as the key executive.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2006 07:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm working on a skeleton outline for Years 17-20, with lots of preliminary detail work being done by Rob Gox. This spring I hope to be at a point in which blanks are identified and additional information requested. Thanks for the offer of help, Jason. I'm sure we'll need it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Feb 2006 04:24 pm    
By Jason Doty

Any idea when we can start looking foward to the most updated version? I don't know how long it takes to transcribe your version into the format that MCP uses, bot a rough estimate would be appreciated. 

I keep checking daily in anticipation. This is just a question not a complaint.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 05:39 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The new version of the calendar completely replaces the existing version, so we're having to translate not just the new years, but also the years that are already posted. July Year 20 through Dececember Year 21 have been translated, but this version of the calendar will extend through Year 23. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 21 Feb 2006 06:59 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Okay, the new version of the old calendar is up now. Please note that if you have bookmarks to the old calendar, they should be changed to reflect the link at the bottom of this page, because the calendar has a new address. 

watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 08:43 pm    
By Jason Doty

When I click on the Marvel Calender, it only has Year 20 of the "new" old Calender. How do I get to the rest? 

Update: Nevermind.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 09:16 pm    
By Jason Doty

Hats off to Paul (For creating it) and the Administrator (For translating it) and putting up the Calender and how much work that they put into it. It's awsome!!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2006 12:27 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The full calendar is up now. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 28 Feb 2006 08:29 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Helpful hint: DON'T print this out. I ran through a ream and a half of paper, and that was after I streamlined it to make full use of the margins.

			*	*	*


Posted: 01 Mar 2006 12:53 pm    
By Tragiko

Awesome! ....thanks Mr. Bourcier! 
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

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Thread 2

Posted: 01 Mar 2006 05:44 pm    Post subject: Wolverine vs Winter Soldier
By garbonzo

Something helpful form CBR and their interview with the writer of Wolverine. 

Quote: 
>>>
Brian Cronin: Not a big deal, but Wolverine versus the Winter Soldier, is it set after Ed has Bucky remember his memories in Cap, or before? 
Daniel Way: After.  
<<<

Nice to see someone giving an answer other than "if it fits into the chronology then that's cool. If not, that's cool too." 

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Posted: 11 Jan 2006 11:25 am    Post subject: Captain America/Steve Rogers real name?
By wolframbane

Captain America's real name has long been established as Steve Rogers. I has also on occassion seen him referred to as Steven Grant Rogers, but I have also seen this name referred to as a known alias. Does anyone know if Steven Grant Rogers is his real name or an alias, and what issue this information appears in? 

As a side note, on a computer screen in CA1 345, his name was given as Steven L. Rogers.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jan 2006 12:48 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The Master Edition of the Handbook says that his real name is Steven Grant Rogers. I'm curious. Where have you seen this name referrred to as "a known alias"? 


watching: live from

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 09:54 am 
By jannepie

I remember this too. I think the no-middle-name thing was mentioned in the recent Handbooks and maybe in some Stan Lee's letter page.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 10:16 am    
By JD

jannepie wrote: 
>>>
I remember this too. I think the no-middle-name thing was mentioned in the recent Handbooks and maybe in some Stan Lee's letter page. 
<<<

The "Known alias : Steven Grant Rogers" mention is indeed present in the 2004 Avengers handbook. Of course, these recent handbooks often have to be taken with a grain of salt...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 12:33 pm  
By ADMINISTRATOR

What do they say is his "Real Name" in this handbook? 


watching: live from

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Posted: 12 Jan 2006 01:06 pm    
By Mikhail

Isn't it generally held that a full middle name trumps a middle initial. For instance, I know War Machine has been referred to as James Ruppert Rhodes in the past, yet around IM #290 he was called "James M Rhodes". Or is it just whichever comes first, like with the Johnathon Spencer Lowell Storm thing?

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 01:50 pm    
By JD

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
What do they say is his "Real Name" in this handbook? 
<<<

Just "Steven Rogers". 

Same thing in the 2004 Golden Age handbook, by the way. Cap is not featured in the 2005 Avengers one.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 01:55 pm    
By wolframbane

Can anyone site a specific issue (other than the Handbook) where Cap is referred to as Steven Grant Rogers? 

And would the name Steven L. Rogers be considered canon, as it was only seen on a computer screen an not actually mentioned.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2006 07:02 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
And would the name Steven L. Rogers be considered canon, as it was only seen on a computer screen an not actually mentioned. 
<<<

Irrelevant, since if it was actually mentioned, it would be treated as a mistake. 


watching: banned from the bible

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Posted: 14 Jan 2006 09:23 pm    
By DonCampbell

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Captain America's real name has long been established as Steve Rogers. I has also on occassion seen him referred to as Steven Grant Rogers, but I have also seen this name referred to as a known alias. Does anyone know if Steven Grant Rogers is his real name or an alias, and what issue this information appears in? 
<<<

The story in Captain America #247 (June, 1980) was written by Roger Stern to resolve the continuity conflicts between Cap's old origin and the newer origin that had been revealed in CA #225 (by Dr. Harding's mind probe). This story revealed that, in late December of 1941, the US Army had implanted false memories in Steve's mind that were meant to confuse the enemy if Cap were captured and tortured into revealing top secret information. Cap's "phony past" was based on actual events from the life of the family of Walter Rogers, a State Department official whose two sons (Mike and Grant) had been killed at Pearl Harbor. One of the false memories plugged into Cap was that his full name was "Steven Grant Rogers." After reading about these preprogrammed false memories in his old war journal, all of Steve's real memories suddenly came back to him, including the fact that he "never had a middle name!" 

Would mean that "Steven GRANT Rogers" and "Captain America" are both aliases used by "Steven Rogers?" You decide. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 14 Jan 2006 11:44 pm    
By wolframbane

Very interesting DonCampbell. So if he actually stated that he never ever HAD a middle name, this could even negate the 'Steven L. Rogers' name that was listed on the computer screen.

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Posted: 01 Mar 2006 06:03 pm    
By Mikhail

Oddly enough, Cap refers to himself as "Rogers, Steven Grant" in Captain America Annual #10, 1991.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Mar 2006 08:01 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Mikhail wrote: 
>>>
Isn't it generally held that a full middle name trumps a middle initial. For instance, I know War Machine has been referred to as James Ruppert Rhodes in the past, yet around IM #290 he was called "James M Rhodes". Or is it just whichever comes first, like with the Johnathon Spencer Lowell Storm thing? 
<<<

It's Jonathan Spencer Storm. The only place "Lowell" shows up is in the Handbook, whereas Susan actually calls Johnny by his full name in an actual comic story. The comics trump the Handbooks.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Mar 2006 11:20 pm    
By Mikhail

Actually, Johnathon Lowell Storm is read by the priest as his full name when he married "Alicia" in FF #300.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Mar 2006 06:26 am    
By Enda80

The Handbook lists Steven Grant Rogers as an alias. 

By the way, it seems the idea of Cap having a brother first appears in the prose novel The Great Gold Steal by Ted White from the 1960's. Well-regarded among prose adaptations of comic book characters, this book actually did have footnotes referencing then current events from the comics, even referencing the Avengers. Apparently the idea of Cap having a brother was an homage to this book.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Mar 2006 09:27 am    
By Somebody

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
The Handbook lists Steven Grant Rogers as an alias. 
<<<

Which was mentioned far, far earlier in this thread.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 03 Mar 2006 02:58 pm    Post subject: Moon Knight questions
By rhod

I'm not that familiar with the character's history, until recently I didn't own any of his own comics, only guest appearances, but reading Essential Moon Knight has raised a few q's.... 

This is how his listing starts at the moment: 

MK3 22-FB 
MK3 16-FB 
MK3 17-FB 
MK3 16-FB 
MK3 37-FB 
HMAG 18/2-FB 
HMAG 17/2-FB 
M/PRV 21-FB 
{WBN 32} 
WBN 33 
WBN 37 
M/SPT 28 
M/SPT 29... 


1) the first part of MK 1 takes place while he's a merc, therefore pre-WBN 32, but is not listed. Why? (Marlene & Frenchie also appear, and it seems to be the first time Marlene has met either) 

2) Randall Spector is only listed as BTS in HMAG 17 & 18. Who is the character known as Hatchetman, identified as Rand Spector? He should have a listing of 
HMAG 18/2 -FB 
HMAG 17/2 -FB 
HMAG 17/2 
HMAG 18/2

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Posted: 05 Mar 2006 08:27 am    Post subject: IRON MAN #301 - #332
By Arthur
Director

continuing the audit... 

Iron Man #301 - #332 

* adjustment required (deletion, split entry, change of some nature) 
** new entries 


**ADVISOR 

**FW 12/2 
**WARM 15/2 
**IM 317/2 


ALVAREZ, FELIX 

IM 301 
**IM 304 
IM 306 


ARBOGAST, BAMBI 

IM 299/2 
**IM 302 (on video intercom (21:3) 
**IM 304 (on video intercom (12:4) 
IM 306 


BENNING, VERONICA 

IM 308 
*IM 309 -- should be deleted. Veronica does not appear in IM 309. The closest we get is on pg 16 when Tony finds a note from her saying shes leaving. 


BRENNAN, BENJ 

**IM 326 (4:2) 
IM 329 
IM 331 


BUTTERFLY 

** IM 309 (14:2) 
**WARM 8 (19:3) 
**IM 310 (6:3) 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (1:2 , 2:3) The Avatars attack Hong Kong prior to Force Works arrival; (5) Force works arrives 
FW 6 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (7:3 - 7: 5) Butterfly taken out by Spider-Woman; (8:2  8:3) Butterfly escapes 
** IM 311 (2:1. 8:2) 
**FW 7 (22:2) 
WARM 10 
IM 312 


CABE, BETHANY 

IM 302 
**IM 304 
IM 305 


CALICO 

IM 330 
*IM 331 Im not seeing Calico in IM 331. (She was killed by Abe Zimmer in IM 330) 


CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 

IM 302 
IM 303-FB 
**IM 304 
H2 417 


DEGANN, KRIS 

IM 330-FB 
IM 330 
**IM 331 (20:1  20:3) talking to Remy Lawford 


DELUGE II 

** IM 309 (14:2) 
**WARM 8 (19:3) 
**IM 310 (6:3) 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (1:2 - 2:1) The Avatars attack Hong Kong prior to Force Works arrival; (5) Force works arrives 
*FW 6 (1-16:1) [splitting current entry] 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (7:1  7:2) Scarlet Witch attacks 
* FW 6 [split from current entry] (16:2  17:5) Deluge repulses Scarlet Witch sr attack; She attacks again with more success 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (7:3) Deluge down; (8:2-8:3) Deluge escapes 
** IM 311 (8:2) 
**FW 7 (22:2) 
**WARM 10 
IM 312 


FIRESTAR/ANGELICA JONES (and identical update for SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN) 

IM 302 
*IM 303 Should be IM 303-FB The story is a patchwork of: 

) i) main story, Iron man digging out from being buried in debris (shortly after 2:00 p.m. on  2-3:1, 7, 21-22), 
ii) a flashback mostly of Captain Americas visit (11:00 am to about 1:00 pm  1, 3:2-6, 9-10, 15-16) and 
iii) - pertinent to this update - a flashback to the fight with the New warriors leading up to being buried (sometime after 1:00 pm to 2:00 pm  8, 11-14, 17-20). 

**IM 304 
NW 47 
NT2 11-BTS 


FOUNDRY II 

** IM 309 (14:2) 
**IM 310 (6:3) 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (1:2) The Avatars attack Hong Kong prior to Force Works arrival; (5) Force works arrives 
*FW 6 [splitting current entry]. (1-15) 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (7:2) Foundry is hit by Deluges waterspout 
*FW 6 [split from current entry] (16-22) 16:4 Foundry inert on ground 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (8:2  8:3) Foundry escapes 
** IM 311 (8:2) 
**FW 7 (22:2) 
**WARM 10 
IM 312 


**HAZZERD 

**FW 12/2 
**WARM 15/2 
**IM 317/2 


IRON MAN/TONY STARK 

*A:C-FB (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 
**IM 285-FB (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 
**IM 286-FB (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 
**IM 313 (4:1  6:3) New Years prior to Tony going to boarding school. 
**IM 287-FB (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 
*A:C-FB (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 

. . . . . 

IM 283 
IM 284-FB (this flashback I presume is the in the event of my death video recording played by Jim Rhodes (10:3-11:6) 
IW 1 
FF 370 
AWC 84 
AWC 85 
AWC 86 
AWC@ 7/4 
DHAWK@ 1 
AWC@ 7 
IM@ 13 
IM@ 13/2-FB 
IM@ 13/2 
IM@ 13/3 
IM@ 13/4-FB 
IM@ 13/4 
**IM 310-FB (16:5  17:2) Tonys dying declaration of friendship 
**IM 284-FB (4:2  5:4) Tonys death 
IM 284 

. . . . . 


*IM 302 [splitting current entry] (1-19) several days before IM 303 
**IM 303-FB-FB Tony goes out for a drive with Victoria Benning the day before IM 303 takes place. 
*IM 302 [split from current entry] (20-22) (happen on the same day as IM 303, up to 11:00 a.m.) 
**IM 303-FB (1, 3:2-6, 9-10, 15-16) Tonys 11 oclock meeting with Captain America 
**IM 303-FB (8, 11-14, 17-20) the fight with the New Warriors leading up to the real time story in IM 303 
IM 303 
IM 304 
*NT2 10 moved from before IM 304 to after it. (The fight with the New Warriors (IM 303 - IM 304 is referenced in NT2 10) 

. . . . . 

IM 313-FB 
**IM 327-FB video recoding of Tony and his will. Could go a number of places. I placed it here as this is the first place after he and Jim Rhodes bury the hatchet following his fake death in IM 284. 
IM 313 


IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 

IM@ 13 
IM@ 13/4-FB 
**IM 310-FB (16:5 -17:2) Tonys dying declaration of friendship 
**IM 284-FB (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 
IM 284 


KIRIN 
**full name Yu Kirin (IM 328 15:4) 

IM 327 
**IM 328 (15:4) 
**IM 329 (7:2- 7:3) 


LAWFORD, REMY 

IM 329 
Despite the apparent change in length of hair, I submit that the following are meant to be Remy Lawford also 
**IM 330 (7:1  7:3) 
**IM 331 (20:2  20:4) 


LICH 

**WARM 8 (19:3) 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (1:2, 2:2) The Avatars attack Hong Kong prior to Force Works arrival; (5) Force works arrives 
*FW 6 [splitting current entry] (1-18:3) Lich attacks Spider-Woman, gets upper hand 
**M/CP 169/2 (gap!!) (6:3  7:4) Lich knocks Spider-Woman down; she calls to Century for help 
*FW 6 [split from current entry] (18:4 -18:6) Spider-Woman back up still trying to get Centurys attention; sees him beginning to teleport out 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (6:2) Lich presses advantage 
**M/CP 169/2 (gap!!) (8:1-8:2) Spider-Woman losing to Lich 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (6:5) USAgent fires at Lich 
*FW 6 [split from current entry] (19:1) Lick knocked away from Spider-Woman by USAgent 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (7:6  8:4) Lich knocked out 
WARM 9 
**IM 311 (8:2) 
IM 312 


MANDARIN 

*IM 275 [splitting current entry] (1  25:1) 
**IM 307-FB (18:1  18:2) Mandarins rings burn out and destroy his hands. 
*IM 275 [split from current entry] (28) 6 weeks later 
**IM 307-FB (18:3) Months of slumber, regenerating.. 
IM 306 
IM 307 


NIGHT THRASHER/DWAYNE TAYLOR 

IM 302 
**IM 303-FB-FB (16:2) video recording of Night Thrasher giving evacuation warning (about 12:30 p.m. same day as IM 303) 
*IM 303 Should be IM 303-FB (see note under FIRESTAR above) 
**IM 304 
NT2 10 


NOVA/RICHARD RIDER 

IM 302 
*IM 303 Should be IM 303-FB (see note under FIRESTAR above) 
**IM 304 
NO2 5 


OGUN II 
IM 332 Can someone tell me: who is OGUN II ? and where is he in IM 332? 


OLD WOMAN 

FW 6 
WARM 9 
** IM 311 (2:1) 
FW 7 
**WARM 10 


Q'WAKE/QUAKE 

** IM 309 (14:2) 
**WARM 8 (19:3) 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (1:2 - 3:1) The Avatars attack Hong Kong prior to Force Works arrival; (5) Force works arrives 
*FW 6 [splitting current entry] (14/15:2-18:3) Centurys faces Qwake; 
**M/CP 169/2 (gap!!) (3:1) Century recognizes Qwake has hostile intentions 
*FW 6 (14/15:3) split from current entry; Qwake attacks; 
**M/CP 169/2 (gap!!) (3:2) Qwakes attack splits the ground open; Century evades (6:1) Century reappears behind Qwake 
*FW 6 [split from current entry ] (14/15:4) Century blasts Qwake 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (6:1) Qwake reeling from first blow 
**M/CP 169/2 (gap!!) (6:2  7:1) Century continues assault until Qwake unconscious 
*FW 6 [split from current entry ] (18:4) Qwake still unconscious; Century present 
**M/CP 170/2 (gap!!) (6:3) Qwake still unconscious; Century vanishes; (8:2-8:3); Qwake escapes. 
** IM 311 (2:1) 
**FW 7 
**WARM 10 
IM 312 


RAGE/ELVIN DARYL HALLIDAY 

IM 302 
*IM 303 Should be IM 303-FB (see note under FIRESTAR above) 
**IM 304 
NW 48-BTS 


SICKLE 

FW 7 
**WARM 10 
IM 312 


SLAG/SLAGHT, DR. THEODORE "TED" 
*IM 318-FB [moved from later in chronology] (3:1  5:4) early in Tonys university days; showed a young Tony Stark the power of reason 
**IM 318-FB (12:1  13:6) Dr. Slaught attends the interment of Tonys parents. 
{IM 314} 
IM 315 
IM 316 
IM 317 
*IM 318-FB (delete)  moved to earlier flashback placement. 
**IM 318 


STARK, HOWARD 
* (His full name as per tombstone in IM 322 (2:2) is Howard WALTER Stark) 

CV 2-FB 
**IM 285-FB (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 
**IM 286-FB (as per previous post ) 
**IM 313-FB (4:1  6:3) Howard still trying to make a man of his sissy son. (In the following IM 287-FB, he has given up and has decided to send Tony to boarding school) 
**IM 287-FB (as per previous post ) 
{IM 28-FB} 
IM:IA 1-FB 


STARK, MARIA CARBONELL 
*(where does the CARBONELL come from? Her tombstone in IM 322 (2:2) shows her name as Maria COLLINS Stark) 

CA@ 9/2-FB 
**IM 285-FB (as per previous post ) 
**IM 286-FB (as per previous post ) 
**IM 313-FB (4:1  6:3) New Years prior to Tony going to boarding school 
**IM 287-FB (as per previous post ) 


STRIKER 

FW 12/2 
WARM 15/2 
**IM 317/2 


**TROUBLE-SHOOTER 

**FW 12/2 
**WARM 15/2 
**IM 317/2 


USAGENT/CAPTAIN JOHN WALKER/"JACK DANIELS" 

FW 12 
**IM 317 
**FW 12/2 
**WARM 15/2 
IM 317/2 
FW 13 


WARFIST 

** IM 309 (14:2) 
FW 6 
WARM 9 
FW 7 
** IM 311 (2:1) 


WONDER MAN/SIMON WILLIAMS 
As video recordings are valid flash-backs, then the films Simon makes should be alsoafter all, it shows him on the movie set at some time in the past  

FF 293 
**IM 313-FB (19:1) shows Tony watching one of the Simon Williams movies. This is one of those FBs that could go in a wide range of spots. According to Tigra in WCA2 12, its been weeks since she and Simon were together...so lots of time for Simon to be pursuing his career. 
WCA2 12 


ZIMMER, ABE 

IM 302 
**IM 304 
IM 305 

. . . . 

IM 328 
IM 329 
**IM 330 
**IM 331

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 03 Mar 2006 10:32 pm    Post subject: Classic X-men 22
By frogcoin

Hi, reading at the info about CX 22 i found... there's not CX 22!, looking in CX 22/2 y found many characters (Colossus, Cyclops, Ka-zar, Nightcrawler, Storm, Wolverine and Zabu) when only Storm Appears in that second history. 

Looking to CX 22, theres some new panels, ill ilustrate the panels with some infor extracted from another webpage (yeah im lazy to describe stuff) 

Quote: 
This story is a reprint of X-Men (1st series) #116. If you wish to read the summary, click here. There is, however, one additional page. 

Wolverine, Storm and Nightcrawler head to the city walls and discover a back way into the city, which Wolverine says is the best way in for them. Kurt asks if theyve ever wondered why the best way in is, invariably, the most disgusting. Storm notices something above them and hurls Nightcrawler into the shadows, where he can barely be seen. She then leaps on top of Wolverine, who ends up face first in some standing water. She tells them to be still and silent; they have company. Above them, a group of sentries glide over them riding pterosaurs. Once theyve gone, Storm explains that there are others, scattered at different altitudes. The air patrol is almost constant. Ororo uses her weather powers to generate a slight mist but nothing too heavy, which could alert the sentries to their presence. Wolverine says that they should face facts. This is a combat situation and they cant let anybody see them. Anyone who does cannot be left able to sound the alarm.  


so with this info and if you had read UX 116 the only characters affected by CX 22; CX 22/2 would be 

NIGHTCRAWLER 
UX 116 
CX 22 
UX 116 

STORM 
UX 116 
CX 22 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 


WOLVERINE 
UX 116 
CX 22 
UX 116 

Okay no Big deal of a change, but every little effort counts to make the MCP one of the more accurate sources of everyday 

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2006 09:06 pm    
By Username

I remember that book. That and Uncanny 232 and 242 were the first X-Men books I ever read. I think I was in 8th grade. 

Anyway... 

Having been a while since I read it, I seem to remember the other X-Men did in fact appear in the back up strip in that issue. It was a brief thing, probably only a panel or two, where they basically wonder where Storm is.
_________________
I'm giving away a bunch of old comics (sort of). Click for details

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2006 11:24 pm    
By Arthur
Director

I think the confusion is because the first page of CX 22/2 is before the title page (and thus could be confused as a new last page for CX 22 (reprinting UX 116)). It shows Colossus, Cyclops, Ka-Zar, Nightcrawler and Wolverine (and Zabu) responding to Banshee who has found a note from Storm saying she needed some time off for herself. Therefore the UX 116, CX 22/2, UX 116 sequence for the X-men. 


But while we're revisiting CX 22/2, the entry for Banshee is missing... 

BANSHEE II/SEAN CASSIDY 

UX 116 
**CX 22/2 
UX 116

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 04 Mar 2006 10:26 am    Post subject: Friendly Neighborhood Spider-man #5
By Kevin W.
Director

So, is it canon? 

It was thinking we'd have to insert the scenes that take place in the past into each character's respective chronology, but then the final scene of the issue jumps ahead 40 years into the future, (which we obviously can't count as canon). So do we toss the whole issue out, or just include the scenes from the past, and ignore the scene from the future?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Mar 2006 11:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Sure, I don't see any reason why it can't be canon. The final scene - the only one set explicitly in the future - would be considered an alternate future, but otherwise it doesn't seem to pose any difficulties.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Mar 2006 05:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The flashback involving the Vulture should be placed sometime after UTSM 12, given that in that issue Spidey tells the Vulture that he defeated him "three times" before. Those times would be ASM 2, ASM 7, and UTSM 5. That leaves no room for a fourth skirmish as we see in the FNSM 5 flashback. The flashback must also occur prior to Peter's high school graduation in ASM 28. Given the nice weather in the flashback, I'd say it likely occurs late in Peter's senior year. 

The flashback involving the Looter can be placed easily between pages 11 and 12 of ASM 36, in which Spidey battles the villain in a science museum where a meteorite is on display, just like we see in FNSM 5. Unfortunately, that means that this flashback with the Looter (in September of Peter's freshman year of college) must occur a few months, not a "couple years" after the flashback involving the Vulture. 

The flashback involving the Sandman is harder to place. 

I believe the flashback involving the Rhino is the very same battle referred to as having occurred BTS earlier in the day in M/TU3 7 (3-22). That's the last time we know that Peter fought the Rhino (aside from M/TU3 11, but the battle there doesn't match the one in FNSM 5), and this flashback can't occur very long ago because it leads Vanna to go after the restraining order we see in the "current" portion of the story.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Mar 2006 07:08 am    
By Tragiko

Peter fought RHINO also in "Spider-Man Unlimited #6" (post "Disassembled" and pre-NA#1)
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

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Posted: 06 Mar 2006 11:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

That's be Spider-Man Unlimited vol.2 #6, right? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Mar 2006 02:24 pm    
By Tragiko

yes... ASMU2 #6 (for MCP Key corrispondance). 


Rhino appears in the 2nd story of the issue - Initially Peter fought Rhino (that defeats Spidey), then Iron Man and Captain America capture the villain. 




Sorry fo my bad english 
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

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Posted: 06 Mar 2006 06:41 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Vol. 3, actually. There was a five-issue series based on the Spider-Man Unlimited TV show. 

http://www.comics.org/series.lasso?SeriesID=11672 

So the current series would be ASMU3 in the Key. 

-Sean

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Posted: 07 Mar 2006 04:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I realise it's too late to change it now, but why is it ASMU in the key anyway? I don't think the book was ever called AMAZING SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 8

Posted: 10 Mar 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: New BTS Beyonder appearance
By lkseitz

I recently acquired a good bit of Byrne's run on FF. It's led me to a missing bit of Beyonder chronology. In FF #263, Mr. Fantastic detects an massive energy reading. In FF #264, he goes to Central Park to investigate, but the energy is gone. 

BTW, shouldn't the appearances in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, where Spidey's spider sense goes off, be BTS like the rest? (Possibly I messed that up when I first submitted them.) 

I propose this addition and changes: 

BEYONDER 
UX 178-BTS ~ A 240-BTS 
*UX 179-BTS ~ A 241-BTS ~ ASM 249-BTS 
NM 13 
*UX 180-BTS ~ A 242-BTS ~ ASM 250-BTS ~ FF 263-BTS 
{M/SHSW 1} 

Hmmm, this brings up an additional thing I hadn't noticed before. None of the actual issues where the heroes enter the Beyonder's structure in Central Park are listed. Shouldn't he be BTS for those as well? I can provide a list, but figuring out which order they might go in will take some time.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 9

Posted: 18 Mar 2006 11:35 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man: House of M and Peter's diary
By jephyork
Director

I noticed something interesting when reading the "Spider-Man: House of M" miniseries... 

Peter's diary in the HoM world doesn't chronicle his HoM past -- but his real, 616 past. Among other things, it speaks of the deaths of Uncle Ben and George and Gwen Stacy -- events that the HoM characters never experienced. 

In the context of the story, Peter eventually explains that he used to make up and write down stories of him failing his loved ones, in order to manage a feeling of guilt that he's always had. 

However, in the opening pages of S-M:HoM #5, a passage from the diary is shown in flashback form -- and it's almost word-for-word identical to Captain Stacy's death in ASM #90. 

Now, Peter didn't literally write the diary in the past of the HoM -- he only THINKS he wrote it. In reality, the HoM HAS no past, and the diary is a creation of Wanda's, just like everything else on the planet. 

That means we don't need to take literally Peter's claim that he made up the stories, and we don't need to consider the possibility that the similarities to the actual past might just be an astonishing coincidence. 

No, we can draw the conclusion that -- for whatever reason -- Wanda created a diary that chronicles the actual, 616 past. 

And since the FB to ASM #90 is basically identical to the actual Earth-616 events -- we can assume that any other FBs to events detailed in the diary, are Earth-616 flashbacks too! 

In S-M:HoM #2, Jonah reads the diary, and we see two quick FBs to Peter's high school years ... walking past Liz Allen in study hall, and unhappily about to use the school showers. 

Now, I know next to nothing about the high school years of Peter Parker, but -- assuming that these scenes have never been shown before -- I contend that they really occured in Peter's real past. 

And they should be added to the MCP in the appropriate places. 

Neat, huh? Real FBs in a fake world. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 19 Mar 2006 03:01 am    
By Username

Sometimes these kind of stories really make my head hurt

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Thread 10

Posted: 19 Mar 2006 09:26 pm    Post subject: X-Men Unlimited #43
By dcohen

Both New Mutants stories in this issue clearly take place in the past. I'd appreciate if someone could advise as to where exactly they fit into continuity?
_________________
dcohen

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Posted: 19 Mar 2006 11:26 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier says that both stories take place between January and June of the imaginary 21st year, on his calendar. 


watching: csi

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Thread 11

Posted: 19 Mar 2006 11:33 pm    Post subject: Missing Wolverine appearance
By jannepie

I think Wolverine's listing misses New X-Men #150. I don't have the issue next to me but I could swear he was in it.

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Posted: 20 Mar 2006 12:51 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Hunh. Jean Grey is missing, too. Thanks. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 21 Mar 2006 09:37 am    
By jannepie

Anytime.

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Thread 12

Posted: 21 Mar 2006 02:52 pm    Post subject: Uncanny X-Men Annual 10 and New Mutants 45
By Ocean Doot

I have a question about the above two issues. I see from the entries of all those characters who appear in both that this site has UX Annual 10 taking place before New Mutants 45. 

I was just wondering if there was a specific logic that lead to that, or whether it was an arbitrary placement. 

I see where both have to take place between Uncanny 210 and 211, which pretty much forces them back to back, but is there any reason why NM 45 can't go first, and UX Annual 10 second? I've just read them both and they seem to work fine in either order. 

And just to be clear: I'm not questioning or challenging the MCP's placement; I'm just wondering as to whether there was something specific I missed, something which forces the placement to be how it is here. Just curious, really. 

Thanks! 
Jason

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Posted: 21 Mar 2006 04:15 pm    
By Somebody

I think stuff of that age is often cribbed from the Indices. If not, if UXAnnual 10 was published before NMut 45, that's probably why. If they were published on the same day... probably just arbitary if there's nothing supporting or disqualifying either order.

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Thread 13

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Official Handbook, Belasco notes
By Enda80

Actually, since Belasco has gotten established as one of the sorcerers who banished the Cat People, perhaps he deserves a BTS for What If I#35/2-fb and WCA II#6-FB. 

Leaving that aside for the moment, the Official Handbook presents such wonders as: 

Thor#300; well, thanks to A-Z#3, Council of Godheads, we have those deities in the fb named as: 
http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/bibliography/Issue3.html 
Ammon Ra, Anu, Buddha, Buluku, Itzamna, Izanagi, Manitou, Nuadhu, Odin, Okonorote, Tame, Tezcatlipoca, Tomazooma, Ukko, Ulgen, Viracocha, Vishnu, Yu Huang, Zeus met to discuss threat of Celestials 

(Note: Anu is behind the scenes in Kull III#3 and Conan the Barbarian I#10. Analyses in the distant future maybe. 

If Mitra ever shows up, yes, the Handbook treats the modern Mitra worshipped by Zoroastrians as the same entity as the Hyborian Era deity of that name. 

By the way, Ratria and Maya are mentioned; this may make Amazing High Adventure canon. 

The Panther God and Lion Gods of Wakanda are identified as Bast and Sekhmet) 

The Handbook also confirms that Loki impersonated Odin in IG#2. 

Crimson Dynamo: got to check about that flashback with the young Stark. 

Cyclone: I guess the one from MCP#97 is the one from Silver Sable, and he died of a skiing accident. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/cyclonesilvers.htm 

Death: has a few appearances from the Atlas era confirmed as Earth-616 canon. 

The Cosmic Cube entry leaves it ambigious whether the Hate-Monger who appeared during the Dan Jurgens run of Captain America was the previous Hate-Monger from Arnim Zola. The Hate-Monger may receive an entry soon. 

D'Bari: Vuk is named as the one from Avengers I#4. It also confirms that Medusa died in 1500 BCE or so, and that later appearances probably represent Euryale, her sister. Vuk is indeed Star Hammer. 

Death's Head's entry leaves it ambigious whether that was the Earth-8410 Death's Head who died in Excalibur I#67. Since the Death's Head who encountered Earth-616 heroes was not an Earth-616 native, this was unclear. 

Earth-Transformers UK is Earth-120185. 

Dormammu's entry confirms that he created Jack the Ripper, possibly with the help of Fu Manchu. That may qualify Dormammu as bts for some of Jack's appearances. It also confirms Jack's Terdu appearance as canon. 

His entry also confirms Tazza as one of the Lords of the Nether-World. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/aggamonp.htm#Lords 

On the lighter side of things: 
Jaine Cutter's picture reminds me of Return of the Living Dead#3 with Melinda Clarke.

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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Melinda Clarke, who played Velsaca on Xena? I'm a nerd. 

And, wow -- Tomazooma the Living Totem, at a Council of the Gods meeting. The mind boggles. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 14

Posted: 22 Mar 2006 03:01 pm    Post subject: HOGARTH, JERYN omission
By Ocean Doot

The Jeryn Hogarth entry has him listed as BTS in UX 121. That matches my recollection, but I'm pretty positive that in CX 27/1, the reprint of that issue, Hogarth is in front of the scenes on one or two of the supplemental pages. (The scenes depict him arguing with a Canadian official.) 

I don't know if the CX 27/1 should supplant the UX 121-BTS or simply be added before or after (or both?), but it should definitely be in there.

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Thread 15

Posted: 22 Mar 2006 11:16 pm    Post subject: Malice III
By captamr

Malice III inhabits the body of the Invisible Woman during the concurrent scenes of Silver Surfer #16 and Fantastic Four #319: 

MALICE III 

SS3 15 
*SS3 16~FF 319 
FF 369
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 16

Posted: 24 Mar 2006 07:03 pm    Post subject: Red Skull/Max notes
By Enda80

RED SKULL/GEORGE MAXON 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 3 
TOS 65/2 

TOS 65/2 had it that the Skull imposter in this story was an Axis spy *impersonating* John (not George Maxon). Perhaps a ~ is appropriate as one story serves as a remake of the other?

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Thread 17

Posted: 16 Dec 2004 01:10 pm    Post subject: Golden Age Marvel Handbook
By Jim Smith

The new OHOTMU: Golden Age Marvel 2004 has me fascinated with a lot of information I'd never known before, and it has me wondering how seriously Handbooks are taken in putting together the MCP. In particular: 

1) Should all the comics cited in the Handbook be considered canon? This edition has a bibliography full of Golden Age comics that aren't on the MCP as yet, as well as the Adventures of Captain America miniseries which the MCP declared non-canon. (Why was that decision made, by the way? I've never read the miniseries, so I don't know what's at issue.) Is the official nature of this book enough to rule these comics admissible to the project? 

2) The Citizen V entry confirms what was hinted at but never completely spelled out in Thunderbolts--that John Watkins III was active as Citizen V before his coma and before Helmut Zemo usurped the name. That makes John III the fourth (and current) Citizen V, and Zemo and Dallas Riordan the fifth and sixth. The MCP currently has them listed in order of appearance, not chronologically. 

3) The Destroyer's entry is a mesh of the character's original Golden Age continuity and the retconned version from Invaders. According to the Handbook, Keen Marlow was the first Destroyer, and Brian Falsworth was later allowed to use the identity. (Invaders had reduced Marlow to a mistaken report about Falsworth.) This brings the total up to three Destroyers: Marlow (Mystic Comics vol. 1 #6), Falsworth (Invaders #18), and Roger Aubrey (Invaders #26). Since the Handbook allows for the possibility that Marlow remained active concurrently with Falsworth and Aubrey, it cannot determine which of the Destroyer's Golden Age appearances can be credited to each man. 

4) Finally, the answer to a question I've had for years now. What If? vol. 1 #4 long ago attributed some of the Golden Age Captain America's appearances to the Spirit of '76 (as Cap II) and the Patriot (as Cap III), but until now it's never been established which appearances belong to which Cap. The Handbook's bibliography credits Captain America Comics #49 as the first appearance of William Naslund as Cap II, and Captain America Comics #59 for Jeff Mace as Cap III. Since Fred Davis (as Bucky II) was the partner of both men, we can also infer CA Comics #49 as his first appearance.

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 01:28 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
1) Should all the comics cited in the Handbook be considered canon? This edition has a bibliography full of Golden Age comics that aren't on the MCP as yet, as well as the Adventures of Captain America miniseries which the MCP declared non-canon. (Why was that decision made, by the way? I've never read the miniseries, so I don't know what's at issue.) Is the official nature of this book enough to rule these comics admissible to the project? 
<<<

Not necessarily. The current ruling on the Golden Age is that Golden Age stories are canon, unless Marvel (or a modern era story) says they aren't. A more detailed explanation is available in the FAQ. In this regard, if the Handbook implies that a story is canon, but it can't be canon because of events in a modern era story, then it's not canon. In other words, the stories trump the Handbook. The only difference between this and our policy on modern age canon is that it's possible for half or more of the issues in a particular title to be non-canon, without afftecting the other issues of that title. Most likely, the missing books you're referring to aren't there because they haven't been analyzed. 


watching: essense of emeril

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 11:36 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Another option is that Adventures of Captain America isn't canon, but events similar to those depicted in that series did occur in the Marvel Universe. (For example, Harmon Furmintz - sp? - reappeared in the pages of New Warriors.) There's a precedent for this kind of technically-not-canon-but-still-broadly-true story in Daredevil: The Man Without Fear. 

-Sean

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Posted: 17 Dec 2004 12:41 am 
By Jim Smith

What is it, though, that caused Adventures to be ruled non-canon? Was it solicited as a what if? Did it fail to conform to established Cap backstory?

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Posted: 18 Dec 2004 06:17 pm    
By Ron Flick

The Adventures of Captain America was a well-written and beautifully-drawn miniseries. The events shown during Steve Rogers' training period and the Super Soldier experiment were, for the most part, accurate and more explanatory than previous origin stories. Also, Cap's very early adventures (which were initially shown in the Stern/Byrne classic CA#255, prior to his teaming with Bucky) were greatly expanded upon. These were the highlights of the series, in my opinion. 

Where the series lost favor with many fans of continuity was in two specific plot developments. One was the introduction of a never-before-seen female protege, Cindy Glass. She was given the role of either Agent R or Betty Ross, (depending on who you talk to), and was later found to be a pawn of the Red Skull. 

Also, the German Red Skull was given a much earlier appearance than was ever previously indicated or inferred. In the miniseries, Bucky discovers Cap's identity and immediately the two fly off to Germany for an encounter with the Red Skull. All previous continuity showed that Bucky required at least two months of training prior to the new team's first adventure together on the Maryland coast. The two then had two early adventures with the American Red Skull before ever meeting up with the real, or German, Red Skull. This has been confirmed in many previous and subsequent stories. 

However, as you mentioned, the events of the Adventures have begun to be mentioned as canon here and there. Recently, in the pages of Captain America, prior to the recent re-start, the Red Skull mentions Cindy Glass as a woman who Cap failed to save. 

Regardless, I still would not accept the Adventures as canon in its entirety. Just too many inconsistencies. 

Ron Flick

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Posted: 25 Mar 2006 05:49 am    
By Enda80

If you are wondering about Adventures of Captain America, other problems were pointed out by Don Campbell 

http://buzzcomics.net/archive/index.php/t-1013.html 
"In my opinion, the events depicted in the Adventures of Captain America Limited Series should not be considered to be "in continuity" because this retelling of the origin of Captain America is too inconsistent with previous retellings. 

First, several of the characters are portrayed differently than they were in earlier stories. For example, General Phillips no longer has the white mustache that he has had in ALL his other appearances, and Doctor Erskine is now balding and speaks with a strong accent. 

Second, Erskine's assistant, Doctor Anderson, is supposedly killed by the Red Skull's assassins in March of 1941---even though Giant-Size Invaders #1 shows him alive in late December of that year. 

Third, Steve Rogers is shown undergoing the experimental process on March 10, 1941---whereas an earlier story (Captain America #255) states that by March of 1941 Rogers had been in "a special training program (with his new body) for three months" before General Phillips told him that he was to be a special agent, Captain America, who was intended to be the opposite of the Nazi special agent, the Red Skull. 

Third, Steve Rogers supposedly joined the US Army in March of 1941 so that he could be hidden from the Red Skull's agents---whereas earlier stories state that the army gave him a "cover identity" (as Private Rogers) that would enable him to move about in secret but still be close by for special missions. 

Fourth, the Adventures of Captain America adds several new characters to Cap's origin. The three most notable "additions" are Lieutenant Colonel James Fletcher, Project: Rebirth's security chief who was "The American Eagle" in World War One; Lieutenant Cynthia "Cindy" Glass, Steve's love interest who turns out to be Agent X, the Red Skull's spy within Project: Rebirth; and Harmon Furmintz, a genius who was a candidate for the super-soldier experiment but was rejected because he was a hemophiliac. Furmintz is the only character who has appeared in any Marvel Universe story but the info provided in New Warriors #4 does not substantiate anything from the limited series except the "fact" that he was one of the candidates. 

Lastly, The Adventures of Captain America completely changes the way in which Captain America first encountered the Red Skull. I prefer the earlier version from Tales of Suspense #65-66, especially since these issues incorporate the first 1940's Red Skull story. Tales of Suspense #65 retells that first story in which the Red Skull turns out to be "John Moxon" while Tales of Suspense #66 reveals that Cap suspected that Moxon wasn't the real Red Skull because Cap felt that he caught Moxon too easily based on what he "had heard about (the Skull's) fighting prowess". This clearly shows that Cap had never met any Red Skull, real or fake, before TOS #65. 

Basically, you can't consider the Adventures of Captain America to be canon unless you're willing to ignore the Tales of Suspense stories and the 1940's Captain America story upon which they were based. I choose to stay with the older version of Cap's origin. 

Don Campbell "

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Posted: 25 Mar 2006 07:46 am    
By rhod

I know you've quoted someone else here, but do you realise there are two "third"s in the list of points?
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Thread 18

Posted: 26 Mar 2006 07:19 am    Post subject: Wong Chu
By Enda80

WONG CHU 
*SA 22-FB 
IM 267-FB 
{TOS 39} 
IM 268-FB 
TOS 39 
IM 268-FB 
IM '00-FB 
IM3 32 
IM '00 

The author of this story has informed me via IM that the Wong Chu in Solo Avengers 22 was intended to be the TOS 39 et al. Wong Chu, but Don Heck drew him differently (maybe because he was younger).

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Thread 19

Posted: 26 Mar 2006 07:57 pm    Post subject: Marvel Comics Presents #7
By captamr

Marvel Comics Presents # 6 has the classic final scenes of Tyger opening the boobytrapped door followed by the story ending explosion to be continued in the next issue of the Wolverine segment. M/CP 7 contains new material (pg. 2, pn.3) showing Wolverine saving the day in the previous episode. So we need a FB for the listing but do we also need a BTS for the final explosion in #6 since the FB occurs right before the final scene in #6 or is this being to picky? 

WOLVERINE - TYGER 

M/CP 5 
M/CP 6 
*M/CP 7  FB 
*M/CP 6  BTS (??) 
M/CP 7 
M/CP 8
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 20

Posted: 23 Mar 2006 04:16 pm    Post subject: Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #18
By Kevin W.
Director

Having just read this issue, I was startled to read there were some flashbacks to the present day Marvel universe. (I had thought this entire story arc would take place in the future). The flashbacks are over a video screen, and show Monica Rappaccini, (the head A.I.M. scientist from the Scorpion storyline in AAF2 7-12) was the creator of the new Death's Head. Her goal was to create a construct that would mimic the abilities of the Captain Universe powers, (though they look nothing alike...). This ties into the A.I.M. plotline from last November's Captain Universe specials... 

So should these flashbacks be considered canon, (like I believe we were planning on doing for flashbacks in Wolverine: The End)? 

Also, something I observed, (and I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it yet): the new Death's Head, (the one from Amazing Fantasy) is pictured on the cover of the new Handbook, but doesn't have an entry inside. Strange... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 24 Mar 2006 05:02 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

This AMAZING FANTASY arc is supposed to tie in somewhere with "Planet Hulk", of all things, which will presumably legitimate the present-day flashbacks.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Mar 2006 11:06 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

So much for being able to dismiss this final arc of Amazing Fantasy...looks like I'll have to do a review for the whole thing.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 21

Posted: 18 Mar 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: Spider-Man and Power Pack
By scottandrewhutchins

Is this issue canon? It was a public service announcement distributed in both newspaper (I know I used to have this; I don't know if I filed it away or my parents discarded it) and comicbook format that was to tell children to speak out against being sexually abused. The Spider-Man and Power Pack stories were separate. The Spider-Man story was more interesting for continutiy purposes. In it, Spider-Man encounters a little boy whose babysitter keeps trying to get him to take his clothes off (the fact that they kept this heterosexual might have seemed implausible to adult readers at the time, but after that woman in New Zealand made sure that statutory rape law there was written in such a way that only men could commit it and then proceded to seduce a little boy in her swimming class, I don't think so--not to mention there was a kid in my algebra class whose aunt made the local news for seducing him. Everybody made fun of him and he was pulled out of my school. I was shocked a few years later to see his aunt as an usher at the regional theatre--they obviously just gave her a slap on the wrist), and says he can't stay up to watch _Star Wars_ unless he does (remember those days? not too relevant now). Spider-Man tells him about a friendship with an older boy who showed him porno, which made him uncomfortable, and how he eventually had to tell Aunt May why he stopped hanging out with him. There doesn't seem any reason why this shouldn't be canon. 

I don't have the comic with me, but I don't think the Power Pack story dealt with any of the Powers' personal lives. They encourage a girl molested by her father to speak out. I think this could slip in easily enough circa when it came out.

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Posted: 18 Mar 2006 04:35 pm  
By metaldragon

There was one of these K-Mart special comics with Spider-Man and Skids while she was still an X-Factor trainee too if I remember correctly. Has anyone seen this one/owns it? I've been trying to find it/more info on it. 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 18 Mar 2006 06:19 pm    
By Jason Doty

Both of these fall into the givaway catagory. Inclussion into the project is still being debated and even if they are it will probably be on a case by case basis.

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Posted: 18 Mar 2006 06:32 pm    
By Enda80

Referenced in Spider-Man Handbook I think. The second one with the Hobgoblin breaks the fourth wall too much.

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Posted: 18 Mar 2006 07:32 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Breaking the fourth wall doesn't preclude a comic from being considered canon. The Sensational She-Hulk series springs immediately to mind.

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Posted: 18 Mar 2006 10:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

What is "the second one with the Hobgoblin"? There've been about twenty Spider-Man-related giveaway comics -- and the Skids one referenced earlier doesn't have the Hobgoblin in it at all. 

Yeah, giveaway books in general are "still under debate" -- although there hasn't actually been any active debate in quite some time. If anyone has any more information on where and how the Spidey/Power Pack comic is referenced in a Handbook, please post -- any more fuel for the fire would be great. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Mar 2006 10:25 pm    
By Somebody

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Breaking the fourth wall doesn't preclude a comic from being considered canon. The Sensational She-Hulk series springs immediately to mind. 
<<<

Wasn't Sensational She-Hulk "the comic as published in the MU of She-Hulk's 'real' adventures"?

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Posted: 19 Mar 2006 05:44 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I seem to remember this one was produced by regular Marvel creators through Marvel editorial, and certainly it doesn't seem to contain any problematic material. There's no obvious reason why it shouldn't be canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 09:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

Can anyone substantiate Enda's claim that the Spider-Man/Power Pack giveaway book was referenced in the Spider-Man (2004 or 2005) Handbook? Can anyone provide the quote? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 12:17 pm    
By Enda80

Actually, it was probaby Spider-Man Encyclopedia. Check the Appendix of it.

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 12:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't own it.  Would you mind checking? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Mar 2006 07:28 am    
By ajbrown

I checked - there's nothing about it in the Power Pack entry in the Spider-man Encylopedia.
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 28 Mar 2006 08:02 pm    
By Enda80

Check for Westcott, Skip. 

Power Pack did not interact with Spider-Man in the story.

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Posted: 29 Mar 2006 09:18 am    
By jephyork
Director

Check for what what? 

AJBrown, thanks for checking -- but could you check again, in the Spider-Man entry or in the Appendix, for any reference to a young Peter Parker being made uncomfortable by an older man who showed him porn? 

(Hmm, the Spidey Encyclopedia is on sale at a store near me ... I should just buy it...) 

-Jeph!

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Thread 22

Posted: 05 Mar 2006 07:30 pm    Post subject: Review of Deadpool no.41-45 for calender
By Jason Doty

Using the issue reviews at uncannyxmen.net as a template, I re-edited reviewed and came up with page and day breaks for Deadpool no.41-45. 
Here's what I got: 

Deadpool v3 #41 (1-22) 
The same day as Deadpool v3 #40 
Deadpool escapes Zemos exploding base in his escape pod but runs into cloaked aliens who he beats up. After, they ask for his help to liberate their leader Dirty Wolff from prison. On Earth, Titania (Copycat) asks the Constrictor if there has been any word on Deadpool. A few hours later, Deadpool breaks into the asteroid prison through the sewage system and frees Dirty Wolff, but during the escape they end up freeing the prisoners and a riot breaks out. 

Deadpool v3 #42 (1) 
The same day as Deadpool v 3 #41 
On Earth that evening Constrictor and Titania (Copycat) are watching the Who wants to be a millionaire? show when the phone rings. Constrictor answers it, Its Deadpool calling from deep space. He wants help getting back to Earth, but Titania hangs up before he can ask. Deadpool is still on the penal colony admits the riot. Deadpool remembers a past adventure. 

Deadpool v3 #42-FB (2-23) This flashback occurs while Deadpool looks like Thom Cruz and both Titania (Copycat) and Constrictor are staying with him. 

Not so long ago, Deadpool gets a job to kill Humbug, but messes up and Humbug escapes leaving Deadpool deaf. That night, Deadpool tries to narrow down who Humbug could be in his civilian identity. 
The next day, he uses his image inducer to attend several Professors classes and realizes he is on the wrong track. Later, he checks his last hunch and finds Humbug. He defeats Humbug using fire ants and Humbug ends up killing himself. Constrictor helps Deadpool regain his hearing and they both depart. 

Deadpool v3 #42 (24) 
In space, Wade shoots his way through the aliens, angry that Dirty Wolff destroyed his one chance to get back home. He tries to find an escape pod, hoping there is one on this ship. But, some aliens overpower Wade, and grab him tight 

Deadpool v3 #43-FB (2:4-7) The same day as Deadpool v3 #42 (24) 

In Space Deadpool fights the rioters and Dirty Wolff. 

Deadpool v3 #43-FB (12-17) The same day as Deadpool v3 #43-FB (2:4-7) 

Deadpool and Dirty Wolff stop fighting and try to make their escape using Dirty Wolffs space cycle. Deadpool leaves him behind. 

Deadpool v3 #43-FB (19-21) The same day as Deadpool v3 #43-FB (12-17) 

While making his escape Deadpool is attacked by the prison warden. Deadpool defeats him and sends him hurtling back toward the prison that self destructs killing the warden but leaving Deadpool adrift in space. 
Deadpool v3 #43-FB (23:1-23:3, 1-2:3) The same day as Deadpool v3 #43-FB (19-21) 

Deadpool is picked up by Corsair of the Starjammers before his air runs out, but refuses to aid them on a mission there going on. They refuel his air and leave him on an asteroid and radio a frieter to return him home. Deadpool then thinks about his past adventure while waiting. 

Deadpool v3 #43 (6-9) 
Early one morning after Thor v2 #26, Constrictor and Titania (Copycat) are delivering stolen vehicles to a fence. They are attacked by Absorbing Man who is there for the same thing, but Titania (Copycat) disappears and Absorbing Man fights a confused Constrictor who doesnt understand why Absorbing Man thinks his wife is at home in bed. 

Deadpool v3 #43 (16) The same day as Deadpool v3 #43 (6-9) 

Later that day, Constrictor confronts Titania (Copycat) about what is going on. Titania says its marital problems and leave it be. 

Deadpool v3 #43 (20, 21:4-22) The same day as Deadpool v3 #43 (16) 

Deadpool returns home explains how he got back to his roommates. Just then a new client comes through the door, by the name of Achebe. 

Deadpool no.44 (1-22) The same day as Deadpool v3 #43 (20, 21:4-22) 

In Wakanda, a weak King TChalla sits alone in his techno-jungle, looking at some monitors, and thinks. He contacts his most loyal servant, Taku, who is observing Iron Man on his monitors. TChalla asks Taku if he has found Malice yet. Theres no sign of the woman. Taku explains that none of Avengers Mansions internal sensors, which he is hacking on, have picked up anyone matching Malices description. Taku also reminds TChalla that Killmonger (The new Black Panther) is at Avengers Mansion. 

In NYC Deadpool and tricks his way into Avengers mansion to steal Preyy for Achebe. He fights the Avengers and is rescued by Titania (Copycat) and Constrictor, but they are caught as they flee. 
Story continued in Black Panther v3 #23. 

Deadpool v3 #45 (1-22) 
One day after Black Panther v3 #23 

One day, some soldiers wake Deadpool up from a messed up dream, warning him that General Estebans guards are firing upon them and need to defend themselves. One of the soldiers gets shot, and Wade tells the others to shut up and leave him alone. One of the soldiers thinks they are actually dealing with Thom Cruz in disguise. Wade jumps out of the helicopter and crashes through a window, landing in Estebans office. He orders his guards to kill Deadpool, but he dodges all of the bullets. He throws some poisonous gas at them. 
The same day in jail, Constrictor and Titania (Copycat) are biding their time. Suddenly, Frank smells something on the glass. Discusted he calls for the guards. At the same time Titania transforms into her true self and then into one of the guards. The guards dont understand what their friend is doing in the tank, and quickly open it. Copycat makes her escape, leaving Constrictor behind. 
Deadpool returns home, and battles Copycat and finds out how it is a plot by the Wizard and Taskmaster to get revenge on him. Copycat took the job against Deadpool for money. They try to blow him up but he is uninjured due to Loki's curse. 
Later that day at a bar, Deadpool accidently breaks Loki's curse by apologizing to his father.

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Posted: 12 Mar 2006 02:22 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Deadpool v3 #42-FB (2-23) This flashback occurs while Deadpool looks like Thom Cruz and both Titania (Copycat) and Constrictor are staying with him.  
<<<

Jason, is this the FB that appears in Deadpool's MCP listing between DP3 39 and DP3 40-FB? Also, you note "the next day" in your summary of this FB; where (page/panel) does the day change occur? 

Would you be able to provide a review of DP3 40, which I lack? 

Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 23

Posted: 02 Mar 2006 07:41 pm    Post subject: Marvel Team-Up v3 #15-18
By Somebody

Non-canon. But I think everybody knew that already. 

The only thing of any note, MCP-wise, is that this series, unlike certain others (*cough*Young Avengers*cough*) works on the Grunewald Marvel-time-travel rules, so instead of fading away with a true reset button, future-Reed-in-a-Thing-robot-body just tells them they can't go back, since they'd either end up in the decimated Marvel Universe they came from, or they'd go to the ordinary MU, but there'd be two of each of them. So they settle down in the MK2099 future with various degrees of happiness about the deal. Not a bad arc, all told.

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Posted: 03 Mar 2006 04:58 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, the canonical link is simply "this is what would have happened in the Marvel Universe, but a bunch of C-listers changed history and turned it into just a divergent timeline." 

The point of divergence would be the point at which Chronok appears in the present day, but I believe I'm right in saying he's there right from the start of the story. Consequently, none of these issues take place on the mainstream Earth at all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Mar 2006 08:49 pm    
By Somebody

Yup. Avengers Tower blows up on page 2.

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Posted: 04 Mar 2006 01:08 am    
By SeanCurtin

I suppose that these issues would need to be analyzed if the Marvel Knights 2099 books ever get analyzed. (I wouldn't hold my breath waiting, but still...) 

-Sean

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Posted: 14 Mar 2006 01:38 pm    
By Sidewinder

I love MTU and I loved the League of Losers arc, but I was a little disappointed when I read the final issue and learned that it was all on a different Earth from the beginning of the story. I was expecting them to go back in time after fighting Chronok and things would be happy in the Marvel Universe. Still, it was a fun read, even if it was on a parallel Earth with a diverent future timeline.

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Thread 24

Posted: 19 Mar 2006 03:44 am    Post subject: Calendar; Punisher vs Bullseye 1-5
By Col_Fury

Punisher vs. Bullseye #1 
the Mans Got Style 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: January, 2006 

Appearances: 
Bullseye, Nico Patrillo, Alphonso Uncle Fonzie Patrillo, Rosala Patrillo, Nick Katzenbaum, Punisher(Frank Castle)-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: Brooklyn, New York 
A bunch of dead mobsters at a bachelor party gone horribly wrong. 
Pg2: Westport, Connecticut 
Nico talks to Uncle Fonzie about their dead mobster relatives. 
Pg3-pg4pn3: FB, New York; March 6, 1981 
Uncle Fonzie goes into a disco. 
Pg4pn4-pn5(of 5): Westport, Connecticut 
Nico questions Uncle Fonzies taste in disco dancing. 
Pg5-pg11pn3: FB, New York; March 6, 1981 
The Punisher attacks the disco and kills all mobsters present except for Uncle Fonzie, who disguises himself by putting on a dress and runs off. 
Pg11pn4(of 4): FB, Westport Connecticut; March 7, 1981 
Uncle Fonzie arrives in Connecticut. 
Pg12-pg22: Westport, Connecticut 
Uncle Fonzie(still in drag) tells Nico to put out a contract on the Punisher. Nico leaves, and talks to his grandmother Rosala. 
Later, Nick Katzenbaum(the Patrillo family lawyer) is contacted by Bullseye whos answering the contract. Nick makes an offer, Bullseye accepts and kills Nick. 

References: 
Jacket weather in New York. 

Bullseye has the target carved into his forehead. 

It's revealed in issue 5 that Bullseye killed the mobsters at the bachelor party, not the Punisher, as Uncle Fonzie has assumed. That means the Punisher only appears in the FlashBack in this issue, and not in the current day portion, nor does he get a BTS credit because he wasn't at the bachelor party. 

March 6, 1981 may be an absolute date, thanks to Punishers origin still tied to Vietnam. This FlashBack would therefore most likely precede his first published appearance, where he had already been the Punisher for a time. The FlashBack in ASM 202 was color corrected to show him in a Punisher shirt, even though he wasnt drawn to have one on. However, I dont have the Microchip miniseries, so Im not sure if this FlashBack should occur before or after issue 2 of that book. 

Punisher vs. Bullseye #2 
the Drop 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: February, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Bullseye, Nico Patrillo, Bobby Patrillo, Mary. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: New York 
Bullseye meets Nick and Bobby, and tells them he accepts the hit on the Punisher. He then lets them know whos the boss, and what the plan is. 
That afternoon, Bullseye sets up an ambush for the Punisher, and then gets Marys(a waitress) phone number. 
That night, Bullseye pisses the Punisher off with his ambush, upsetting a mob hit he was planning. Bullseye throws a paper airplane with a note on it at the Punisher, telling him where some of the remaining Patrillos will be tonight at 11:00 PM. 
Later, at 11:00 PM, Bullseye meets with Nico, Bobby, and two other Patrillos. 

References: 
All in one day, same day as the end of last issue. 

Bullseye is in full costume here, but the Punisher is wearing his skull shirt, black jeans, a black trenchcoat, black boots(regular boots, not superhero boots), and white short gloves. 

Punisher vs. Bullseye #3 
Massacre on 34th Street 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: March, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Bullseye, Nico Patrillo, Bobby Patrillo, two other Patrillos, Tony DiFazzio. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Continued from last issue 
Bullseye talks to the Patrillos and directs their attention out the window, to see the Punisher on the street. Bullseye starts killing people, so the Punisher kills all the Patrillos except Nico, who escapes. Bullseye escapes and steals a bus, Punisher steals a car and follows. Bullseye drives his bus into mobster Tony DiFazzios place, the Punisher arrives and is duly distracted with the prospect of killing a bunch of mobsters. Bullseye escapes by pretending to be an injured bus passenger. When the Punisher is finished killing mobsters, hes stopped while leaving by a police officer. 

References: 
All in one night, same night as last issue, all before midnight. 

Punisher vs. Bullseye #4 
Two of a Kind 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: April, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Bullseye, Nico Patrillo, Alphonso Uncle Fonzie Patrillo, Lonnie Patrillo, Trevon and friend. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Continued from last issue 
Bullseye, having killed the ambulance paramedics, kills the officer whos trying to arrest the Punisher. 
Pg4pn1: New York, 2 hours later(and therefore after midnight) 
The Punisher kills some mobsters while looking for Bullseye. 
Pg4pn2: New York, 8 hours later(same day) 
The Punisher kills some mobsters while looking for Bullseye. 
Pg4pn3-pn5(of 5): New York, 2 days later 
The Punisher kills some mobsters while looking for Bullseye. 
Pg5-pg20: New York, one week later 
The Punisher questions Lonnie when Bullseye calls. Since hes across the street, he shoots a rocket launcher at Lonnies house. Lonnie dies, the Punisher escapes. Bullseye turns around to see two kids, Trevon and friend, so he gives them his rocket launcher. Punisher attacks and he and Bullseye fight. Trevon threatens the Punisher with the rocket launcher and Bullseye escapes. 
Pg21-pg22: Westport Connecticut, 2 days later 
Uncle Fonzie and Nico play solitaire in drag together. 

References: 
Trevon and friend are wearing jackets. 

Punisher vs. Bullseye #5 
Profit and Loss 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: May, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank castle), Bullseye, Alphonso Uncle Fonzie Patrillo, Nico Patrillo, Rosala Patrillo, Mary, Louis, Leo Rossi. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Continued from last issue 
Bullseye calls Nico and tells him to get his payment ready by midnight tonight. 
Pg4-pg6pn2: Construction site, Friday 6:13 PM  9:50 PM 
The Punisher gets ready for a Rossi mob family meeting at a construction site when Mary the waitress shows up. 
Pg6pn3-pn6(of 6): FB; Marys place, Friday 11:40 AM 
Bullseye calls Mary and sets up a date for tonight. 
Pg7pn1-pn2: Construction site, Friday 9:52 PM 
Louis, Marys babysitter, shows up. 
Pg7pn3-pn7(of 7): FB; Marys place, Friday 10:50 AM 
Bullseye calls Louis and tells him where to meet Mary tonight. 
Pg8-pg10pn2: Construction site, Friday 9:53 PM 
Mary yells at Louis while the Punisher and Bullseye watch. 
Pg10pn3-pn4(of 4): FB; Construction site, Friday 2:10 PM 
The Punisher sets a bomb up in the constructions sites office. 
Pg11-pg15: Construction site, Friday 9:55 PM 
Mary yells at Louis some more, and the Punisher realizes through their conversation that he cant use his bomb, because Bullseye has Marys kids in the construction sites office. Bullseye shoots at the Punisher, kills Mary and Louis, then paralyzes the Punisher with a tranquilizer dart. 
Pg16-pg19: Westport Connecticut, Friday 11:58 PM 
Bullseye arrives to get his money from Nico and Uncle Fonzie, but the Punisher is waiting outside with a rocket launcher and blows up the house. 
Pg20: Westport Connecticut, after midnight 
Bullseye escapes and talks to Rosala. 
Pg21-pg22: New York, Saturday 9:40 AM 
Leo Rossi pays Bullseye for wiping out the Patrillo family, then hires him to kill the Punisher. 

References: 
In the office at the construction site, theres a wall calendar opened to March. Most likely, this means the entire series is in March, but not necessarily. It could be moved around that the first part of the story is in February, if needed. 

Laying it all out, we have: 

PvB #1 FB pg3-pg4pn3, pg5-pg11pn3: March 6, 1981 
PvB #1 FB pg11pn4: March 7, 1981 
 
PvB #1 pg1: Saturday 
PvB #1 pg2, pg4pn4-pn5, pg12-pg22: Sunday 
PvB #2: Sunday 
PvB #3: Sunday 
PvB #4 pg1-pg3: Sunday 
PvB #4 pg4pn1-pn2: Monday 
PvB #4 pg4pn3-pn5: Wednesday 
PvB #4 pg5-pg20: one week later, Wednesday 
PvB #4 pg21-pg22: a Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg1-pg3: 8:40 AM, the same Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg7pn3-pn7: 10:50 AM, the same Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg6pn3-pn6: 11:40 AM, the same Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg10pn3-pn4: 2:10 PM, the same Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg4-pg6pn2: 6:13 PM  9:50 PM, the same Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg7pn1-pn2: 9:52 PM, the same Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg8-pg10pn2: 9:53 PM, the same Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg11-pg15: 9:55 PM, the same Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg16-pg19: 11:58 PM, the same Friday in March 
PvB #5 pg20-pg22: 12:01 AM-9:40 AM, Saturday
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 19 Mar 2006 08:51 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Col_Fury. Can anyone shed any more light on the "1981" flashback in issue #1?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 25

Posted: 18 Mar 2006 03:17 am    Post subject: Calendar; Punisher: Bloody Valentine
By Col_Fury

Punisher: Bloody Valentine #1 
W: Jimmy Palmiotti & Justin Gray 
D: Paul Gulacy 
Published: April, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Suspiria, Vincent Carraciola, Herman Zeufeieden, Karen, another girl, Cyber(the dog). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: Brooklyn, night 
Ready to kill some guys hes been trailing for the past two days, the Punisher is cut off by Suspiria who gets to them first. They team up and get on her plane where she explains why shes after the same guys he was, and that theyre now going to Italy to take out an arms dealer/kidnapper: Vincent and Herman. 
Pg8-pg10: FB 
Suspiria dreams of the time Vincent killed her husband and kidnapped her daughter. 
Pg11-pg12: FB 
Frank dreams of the time his family was killed in the park. 
Pg13-pg18: Italy, dusk 
Frank and Suspiria parachute out of her plane and land on her lawn in Italy. They go inside and find out where Vincent is, but theyre attacked by men sent by Vincent. They escape after blowing up Suspirias house, then leave in a boat. 
Pg19: Rome, dusk 
Frank and Suspiria plan. 
Pg20: Rome, dusk 
Vincent and Herman chat. 
Pg21-pg35: Rome, evening 
Frank and Suspiria enter the casino that Vincent is at, and proceed to kill a bunch of hotel guards. Suspiria tortures Vincent to find out where the kidnapped kids are, then kills him. She and Frank take off to the airport and rescue the kids that Herman has stashed in a plane. Suspiria stops Frank from killing Herman in front of the kids, but she does strap Herman to the planes landing gear, crushing him when they land. 
Pg36: Italy, the next day 
Frank and Suspiria chat, and make plans to spend the evening together. 

References: 
The Punisher hasnt been doing anything besides tailing the guys for the past two days, so no appearances for him for two days before this issue. 

Coat and jacket weather in New York. 

Grapes are fully grown on the vines in Italy at Suspirias house. 

Its a clear starry night on pg35, and no moons are shown through the issue. 

Suspiria mentions, twice, that it took her nine months to learn to walk again, so its at least nine months after Punisher: Red X-Mas. It would also be safe to assume it took a few more months for Suspiria to get back into shape after she re-learned to walk. 

The flight from New York to Italy takes hours according to Suspiria, and they arrive in Italy at dusk. So its the next day, whatever the time zones are 

Suspirias dream is more or less her origin, much like Franks dream is. She worked for Vincent because he had her daughter, and Vincent thought she switched sides because she took a job in New York to kill the Punisher then disappeared,(she was recuperating) so this FlashBack takes place before Punisher: Red X-Mas. How long before is anybodys guess. Its a sunny day on the beach in Italy, so perhaps the summer before? 

As for Franks dream/FlashBack, Im not sure if it contains any new information. Probably not. 

Suspiria mentions that its been over a year since Punisher: Red X-Mas. 

The title is Bloody Valentine but nowhere in the book is Valentines Day mentioned. However, on the last page Suspiria asks Frank if he has any plans for tonight?, which I read to mean that tonight is Valentines. That would place this over a year after Red X-Mas, and allow Suspiria to get back into shape after she re-learned to walk after nine months. 

So 
Pg1-pg12: Feb 11, year 24 
Pg13-pg18: Feb 12, year 24 
Pg19-pg35: Feb 13, year 24 
Pg36: Feb 14, year 24
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 19 Mar 2006 08:45 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Col_Fury. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Mar 2006 10:31 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
The title is Bloody Valentine but nowhere in the book is Valentines Day mentioned. However, on the last page Suspiria asks Frank if he has any plans for tonight?, which I read to mean that tonight is Valentines. That would place this over a year after Red X-Mas, and allow Suspiria to get back into shape after she re-learned to walk after nine months. 
<<<

A Valentine is simply a love. "My Valentine" is "the one I love." The story doesn't have to occur on Valentine's Day, or anywhere near it. 


watching: blame it on rio
