	Marvel Universe
1. Amazing Spider-man Annual 16
2. Web of Spider-man 26
3. Spectacular Spider-Man #143
4. Placement of Spectacular Spider-man 86 and 87
5. Status of RUNAWAYS Series......
6. Name of anti-mutant President from UX 141
7. Placement of ASM 253 and Spectacular Spider-man 91
8. BTS appearance for Rasputin/connection to Colossus
9. Magneto/Brotherhood (BTS) in Deadly Genesis #4 Flashback
10. BTS Progress on the Calendar
11. More on Namor's chronology
12. Placement of ASM 260, 261 and Spectacular Spidey 98
13. Marvel Team-Up v3 #19
14. First Family
15. Grrr! Now JMS is doing it!!!
16. Secret War Hoopla
17. Marjory Marko appearance?
18. Landau, Luckman & Lake
19. the Official Handbooks and the canonicity of novels
20. Doom [FF536&537 SPOILERS]
21. Civil War: Opening Salvo
22. It, Heap now canon
23. Flying Dutchman
24. Angel's childhood
25. Harry's Hideaway

	Ultimate Universe
26. Ultimate Marvel Chronology

	2099 Universe
27. Werner Von Doom in 2099 time travel story...how to handle...

	Issue Analysis Forum
28. Runaways v2 #13
29. Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 Issue #88-91
30. Nextwave
31. Thing #1
32. My Apologies For Books Of Doom
33. Son of a Genius: Everybody Loves Franklin
34. Runaways vol 2 #1-6
35. Thing #2
36. Runaways vol 2 #7-8
37. Calendar call for analysis
38. Thing #3
39. Code of Honor notes
40. Thing #4
41. BUG #1
42. Spider-Woman: Origin 1-5
43. New material in Marvel Saga #2-12 (assistance requested)
44. Sable & Fortune 1-4

	Chat Forum
45. Marvel Graphic Novels
46. Canonicity of The End







Thread 1

Posted: 29 Mar 2006 03:46 pm    Post subject: Amazing Spider-man Annual 16
By ajbrown

I've been re-reading some old Spidey comics around the introduction of the Hobgoblin. At the moment the Spidey chronology reads: 

PPTSS 73 
M/TU 124 
M/TU 125 
ASM 237 
PPTSS 74 
PPTSS 75 
PPTSS 76 
PPTSS 77 
ASM 238 
ASM 239 
PPTSS 78 
PPTSS 79 
ASM@ 16 

But in Amazing Spider-man Annual 16, Harry and Liz come to visit Spidey and Liz remarks that they are late because Liz was going to bring a date for Peter. But as of Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-man 76 Peter and the Black Cat are going out and Spidey is really, really committed to the relationship (as shown by him looking after her and lots of thought boxes about how much he cares for her). 

Therefore, I think the ASM Annual should be moved back a bit, preferably before Spectacular 75 (when the Black Cat returns). I know we could rationalise Liz's comment by saying that she doesn't know about the Black Cat, but it still seems odd that Peter wouldn't correct her or think about the Black Cat or anything. 

Annual 16 has to be after FF 242, because it is referenced, but other than that there don't seem to be many clues towards placement. 

So, I suggest putting ASM Annual 16 between Spectacular 74 (Deb Whitman leaves) and Spectacular 75 (Black Cat returns). Is that okay?
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 29 Mar 2006 05:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, but sorry. I don't think that's a strong enough argument to make the change. I don't see why it can't happen in the order we have it. If I'm Peter, I'm certainly not going to correct Liz's misconception. To do so would create way more problems than it would solve. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 30 Mar 2006 05:07 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Is this a placement that comes from the Index? If not, I must admit I find the argument quite persuasive, assuming it's otherwise viable. It would be generally simpler to place the story at a point where the dialogue correctly reflects the status quo, since it avoids the need for further explanations.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 08:34 am    
By ajbrown
Director

The reason I posted this is because I have just been reading through the issues in the chronological order and it really sticks out like a sore thumb. For the past several issues Spidey has been getting more and more committed to his relationship with Black Cat and then suddenly Liz turns up and says she was going to bring a date for Peter and there is no comment, no correction and no thought box about the Black Cat. 

I don't know if the current order is from an Index, or publication date, but it just seems that the Annual can be moved back without any worry, and it makes the dialogue fit much better.
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 10:23 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm still not sure what sort of correction you'd expect from Peter, here. "I'm sorry, Liz. You really don't need to set me up. I'm dating the Black Cat."

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Posted: 03 Apr 2006 03:14 pm    
By ajbrown
Director

I guess I want some recognition of his relationship with Black Cat. A though bubble or something saying why it's good Liz didn't bring a date because he's with Black Cat at the moment. 

It doesn't really matter. If you think it's fine where it is I am okay with that, I just thought I'd raise the issue because I'm reading through them and it really stuck out to me.
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 04 Apr 2006 04:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Given the style of stories at the time, you'd expect at least a thought bubble mentioning the fact that he's already got a girlfriend who he can't mention. I agree the existing order WORKS, but I have to admit that the proposed alternative sounds like it would read more naturally.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 2

Posted: 04 Apr 2006 09:28 am    Post subject: Web of Spider-man 26
By ajbrown
Director

Hi, 

Web of Spider-man 26 is a sort of "untold tale", taking place at this point in the chronology: 

ASM 251 
M/TU 137 
M/FAN 47 
M/TU 138 
WOSM 26 
PPTSS 86 
PPTSS 87 
M/TU 139 


However, it is also listed as taking place much later, at the chronological point in time that all the other comics were: 

PPTSS 124 
FF 299 
WOSM 25 
WOSM 26 
WOSM 27 
PP 29 
ASM 287 

However, there is only one story in Web of Spider-man 26 and it takes place over the course of a couple of days and it is correctly placed at the early point in the chronology. Therefore this second appearance in the chronology (between WOSM 25 and 27) is wrong, unless you are counting the cover (which inexplicably shows Spidey in his black costume, despite the fact that the story inside takes place before Secret Wars even happened!)
_________________
AJ

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Thread 3

Posted: 05 Apr 2006 08:35 pm    Post subject: Spectacular Spider-Man #143
By captamr

A subplot running through Spectacular Spider-Man #143 contains Gerry Conways attempt to correct the Clone saga debacle of a few years earlier in Amazing Spider-Man. The additional scenes require a couple of extra listings: 

STACY, GWEN (Clone) 

PPTSS 142 
*PPTSS 143 
PPTSS@ 8 


HIGH EVOLUTIONARY 

PPTSS 142 - BTS 
*PPTSS 143  BTS 
ASM @ 22
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 4

Posted: 04 Apr 2006 04:13 pm    Post subject: Placement of Spectacular Spider-man 86 and 87
By ajbrown

Currently the MCP lists: 

ASM 249 - 1st spider-sense because of Beyonder 
ASM 250 - 2nd spider-sense because of Beyonder 
ASM 251 - Hobgoblin defeated and presumably drowned 
M/TU 137 
M/FAN 47 
M/TU 138 
WOSM 26 
PPTSS 86 - reveals place of work (Daily Bugle) to Black Cat 
PPTSS 87 - reveals identity to Black Cat 
M/TU 139 
M/TU 140 
PPTSS 88 
PPTSS 89-FB 
PPTSS 89 
ASM 251 - conversation with Peter and Harry 
PPTSS 89 ~ M/TU 140 ~ ASM 251 - Spidey enters Beyonder's gateway in Central Park 

But in PPTSS 87 Spidey thinks: "So much happening at once. What with that mysterious -- and incredibly powerful -- spider-sense tingle I got recently, warning of massive danger I can't even locate* ...and then the total loss of my spider-sense, thanks to Hobgoblin's nutty gas* ...and the fact that Hobby might be lurking anywhere, I've got enough on my mind as it is! I sure don't need this conflict!" 

*See Amazing Spider-man 249 [editor's footnote] 

This makes it very clear that PPTSS 87 takes place BEFORE the second spider-sense tingle in ASM 250 and before the defeat of Hobgoblin in 251, but after ASM 249. 

The end of ASM 249 and the beginning of ASM 250 are at the same time and PPTSS 86 and 87 take place on the same day, from afternoon into evening, so they must be placed in a gap in ASM 250 before the second spider-sense tingle (which is on page 11). 

In ASM 250 (top of page 11) there is a sequence where Spidey visits the powerful men from the Century Club and a box reads: "Over the next 12 hours..." Although this time is clearly meant to be for Spidey to visit and question the businessmen, it is the only gap in ASM 250 before the spider-sense tingle (which happens on a new day) that PPTSS 86 and 87 can take place. PPTSS 86 and 87 take place over a period of roughly 12 hours as well, so we can assume that Spidey visits these businessmen and also hangs around with Black Cat in this time. Then the day ends with Spidey webbing around with Black Cat (as shown in PPTSS 87) and the next day he wakes up and is hit with the 2nd spider-sense tingle (as shown in ASM 250 page 11). 

Therefore, I suggest: 

ASM 249 
ASM 250 - pages 1-11 
PPTTSS 86 
PPTTSS 87 
ASM 250 pages 11-22 

...and then to continue as before, as PPTSS 88 and 89 can happen after ASM 251.
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 04 Apr 2006 05:18 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'll buy that the dialogue implies that the issue occurs before Hobgoblin's defeat -- but what makes you so sure it occurs before the second Spidey-sense tingle in ASM #250? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2006 10:35 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The use of the singular "that [...] tingle" (as opposed to "those [...] tingles") does suggest that it's only happened once so far. 

-Sean

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Posted: 06 Apr 2006 02:49 am    
By ajbrown
Director

Yep as Sean said, Spidey is clearly referring to a single tingle, so it has to go before ASM 250 page 11.
_________________
AJ

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Thread 5

Posted: 06 Apr 2006 12:05 pm    Post subject: Status of RUNAWAYS Series......
By PaxHouse

I just wish to know how soon will you (the AdMins) will be able to include the RUNAWAYS {Both VOL I & II} Series; especially since it's been long established as being a part of the MU..... 

(The reasons that I'm asking is that I don't see the series listed within the Key Section.)
_________________
PaxHouse.

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Posted: 06 Apr 2006 01:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

June 17. 


watching: live from

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Thread 6

Posted: 09 Apr 2006 01:32 am    Post subject: Name of anti-mutant President from UX 141
By wolframbane

In UX 141, Kate Pryde-Rasputin from Earth-811 said that after Senator Kelly was killed by the Brotherhood on her world, a president was elected 4 years later on an extreme anti-mutant platform. Was the name or identity of this president ever realized. i suspect it may be Graydon Creed, but I was wondering if there was anything official.

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Posted: 09 Apr 2006 07:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

No, he's never identified. Graydon Creed wasn't even created until over a decade later, although there was an obvious implication at that time that he might fulfil the same role in history if he won the election.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 09 Apr 2006 10:23 am    
By Enda80

James Martin was his name, per the Alternate Earth Handbook.

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Thread 7

Posted: 09 Apr 2006 01:40 pm    Post subject: Placement of ASM 253 and Spectacular Spider-man 91
By ajbrown

I'm probably getting annoying posting little mistakes in the Spider-man chronology - If you want me to stop I will! I am reading through a whole bunch of Spidey comics in the order suggested on this site and when I find a mistake I post it here - I hope that is okay. 

The chronology currently lists: 

PPTSS 90 
M/TU 141 
PPTSS 91 
ASM 253 

But in PPTSS 91 there is an explicit reference to the events of ASM 253. On page 10 Peter thinks "But I've got other problems... like Auny May being totally freaked out when I told her I had dropped out of school*". There is then an editorial box stating "See ASM #253". This means that most of PPTSS 91 needs to go after ASM 253. 

The beginning of PPTSS 91 follows straight on from the end of PPTSS 90, so the beginning needs to be before ASM 253 but there is the possibility of putting ASM 253 between the pages of 7 and 8 of PPTSS 91. On page 8 Peter wakes up and says he has slept the night away. This is obviously meant to be a direct follow-on from the night before, however it can easily be Peter waking up on a different day, and leave time for ASM 253 to happen between pages 7 and 8. 

So I suggest: 

PPTSS 90 
PPTSS 91 (pages 1-7) 
ASM 253 
PPTSS 91 (pages 8-22) 

Unfortunately I do not have M/TU 141 so I cannot comment on it. However, it looks like it might be in the wrong place as the beginning of PPTSS 91 follows straight on from the end of PPTSS 90. Anyone have this issue who can help place it? 

Thanks!
_________________
AJ

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Thread 8

Posted: 23 Mar 2006 04:16 pm    Post subject: BTS appearance for Rasputin/connection to Colossus
By wolframbane

Rasputin (or Mister Rasputin) was a minor villain who briefly fought Dr. Strange in ST 145/2, later reformed and encountered Cloak in C&D3 1. Rasputin discovered he was a descendant of the historical Grigori Rasputin in ST 145/2. 

In the recent X-Men: Colossus Bloodline series, it was revealed that Colossus, his son Peter, Magik and Mikhail Rasputin are all descendants of Grigori Rasputin. In X:CB 1, their cousin Larisa reveals that all the descendants of Grigori Rasputin have been murdered (by Sinister). The only ones remaining alive were Colossus, Mikhail, Larisa, their uncle Vladimir, and Peter. 

Mr. Rasputin, as well as his children Lamar and Lavinia Plotnick, as descendants of Grigori, may have also been slain (although this was never mentioned in X:CB). The 'where are they now' section of Marvel Legacy: 1960s confirms the relationship with Colossus. It is possible that the murdered family members referred to by Larisa includes them. If so, a revised chronology for Mr. Rasputin would be: 

ST 145/2 
C&D3 1 
X:CB (BTS)

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Posted: 23 Mar 2006 04:56 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

But we need more than just possibilities, before we add this to the listings. 


watching: 24

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Posted: 24 Mar 2006 08:59 am    
By jephyork
Director

Well, if all of Grigori Rasputin's descendents have been murdered, and Marvel recently re-confirmed that Mister Rasputin was descended from Grigori ... I'd say that transcends "possibilities". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Mar 2006 09:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The (dreadful) plot of BLOODLINES does indeed hinge on the proposition that all those who shared Rasputin's mind had been killed except for Piotr and Mikhail. I suppose there remains the possiblity that not all of Rasputin's descendants were affected in the first place, notwithstanding the claims made by some characters in BLOODLINES; or that Rasputin is simply wrong about his ancestry. Nonetheless, the logical conclusion of the stories read together is that this Rasputin would have been affected by the curse described in BLOODLINES and, logically, must be dead. 

I'm not entirely convinced, however, that a report of his death necessarily qualified for a BTS listing, since he isn't actually acting to affect the story in any way. What's our general policy on "reported dead" characters? If he does get a listing, logically it should be for the issue which confirms that all other descendants have been killed (which I think was issue #3, but I'd have to check).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Mar 2006 10:52 am    
By jannepie

Could there have been a possibility that Larisa didn't know about Mr. Rasputin's existence? 

Colossus's son, Peter, isn't believed dead either and Larisa or Mr. Sinister probably didn't know about him.

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Posted: 24 Mar 2006 11:17 am    
By wolframbane

When Vlad dies, a wave of negative energy flowed through the remaining 4 Rasputins, Larisa, Mikhail, Piotr and Peter (in the Sagae Land). Sinister comments, 'and then there were three', indicating he didnt know about Peter, even Piotr is still unaware. 

I had a thought regrding Grigori Rasputin's descendants. He actually had two notable bloodlines. The second was thru his 'celestial wives', women that were experimented on by Sinister, who carried the spirit of Grigori. This included Piotr's family. However, Grigori was married with children long before he met Sinister. His legitimate bloodline would not carry the effects of Sinister, and would likely not have been killed by him.

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Posted: 25 Mar 2006 06:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Actually, I'd take it the other way - this story unequivocally tells us that Colossus and Mikhail Rasputin are the only two living descendents of Rasputin. This premise is absolutely vital to the plot, because the whole story is that if you keep killing Rasputin descendents, eventually his mind will be reunited in the one survivor. The story simply doesn't work if there are any more descendents out there. 

It follows that, contrary to what was implied but never actually stated outright, the brat in the Savage Land isn't Colossus' kid after all. 

(Alternatively, the kid is dead.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Mar 2006 05:42 am    
By jannepie

But Rasputin's mind wasn't ever reunited so they never found out if there were any other descendents left. IMO the story worked just as well with the characters only thinking that they were the last two descendents.

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Posted: 13 Apr 2006 09:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

Piotr's son is seen, on-panel in the Savage Land, psychically reacting to the death of Vlad the exact same way that Piotr, Mikhail, and Larisa are reacting to it. 

The issue confirms that he's Piotr's son, and also confirms that nobody has any idea of his existence (since Sinister, Piotr and Mikhail were all under the impression that if one of them died, Rasputin would be reborn in the other). 

-Jeph!

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Thread 9

Posted: 08 Apr 2006 12:16 am    Post subject: Magneto/Brotherhood (BTS) in Deadly Genesis #4 Flashback
By wolframbane

In Defenders #16, Magneto and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (Blob, Lorelei, Mastermind, Unus) were regressed to infancy by Alpha the Ulimate Mutant. They were placed in the care of Moira MacTaggart on Muir Island immediately after, in X-Men v2 #2. These events occurred simultaneously with parts of Giant-Size X-Men #1, after the X-Men left for Krakoa, but before Xavier learned they were captured by Krakoa. 

In Deadly Genesis #4 (flashback), after Xavier learned what happened to the X-Men, he flew to Muir Island to contact Moira, to form a second team of X-Men including Kid Gabriel, Sway, Petra and Darwin. This would also place it after Moira took in the infant Magneto and Brotherhood, so they would be BTS in Deadly Genesis #4. 

Additionally, Proteus was still at Muir Island at this time. He too may be considered BTS in Deadly Genesis #4.

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Posted: 08 Apr 2006 08:41 am    
By Jason Doty

I think that Xavier contacted her at the research station she shared with him in New York, where she was in the States contacting mutants. The Defenders issues can still take place after he sent his "new" X-Men to the island and that could be who he was monitoring in Defenders 15.

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Posted: 10 Apr 2006 08:47 am    
By jephyork
Director

So, wait, because "they were on Muir Island at the time" they should get a BTS? 

I don't know as we work that way. We don't include a BTS of every X-Man when we see an outside shot of the mansion, for example, and that's a much smaller facility than Muir Island... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 10 Apr 2006 11:52 am    
By Jason Doty

I just double checked and the flashbacks with Xavier and Moira in Deadly Genesis no.4 all occur in New York.

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Posted: 10 Apr 2006 12:37 pm    
By Dhall

I wouldn't think we'd do that for a shot of the island. Now if they showed a shot of the detention area and cells, I think a case might be made. 


Dave

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Posted: 10 Apr 2006 02:13 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'd probably agree with that -- if we could prove beyond doubt that they were in there at the time, and if we saw their cell doors on-panel -- yeah. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 Apr 2006 10:06 am    
By shandrakor

I thought BTS entries only existed if the character was in some (even minimal) way interacting with the plot of the story. I don't personally think even a shot of the detention center would be enough for BTS.

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Posted: 11 Apr 2006 10:49 am    
By Dhall

In some of the early Claremont issues, we see shots of Moira's cellblock, with a door marked Mutant X. We know from later issues, that is Proteus, and yes he is behind that door, even though in the earlier issues, he doesn't affect the story in any way. 

It would be the same if a character said to another, I just left Professor X in his study, and he said..., but we did not actually see Xavier. It doesn't matter if what Xavier said had a plot effect, we KNOW for certain that he is there, in the mansion, though unseen. 

Or if Peter said he had a date with Kitty in twenty minutes, and we KNOW she's in her room getting ready, but don't see her until the next issue, when they leave the mansion, well she's physically present BTS. (Now this one I know has a minimal plot effect.) 

Now, we would not give a BTS, if it was unclear if a character was present. We shouldn't start making assumptions, or we'd end up with a BTS for every character in the MCP, when a shot of the Earth was shown. 

That's my two cents on this type of BTS. 

Dave

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Posted: 13 Apr 2006 03:42 pm    
By shadrakor

Actually, the Mutant X door and the Kitty date I both agree with you on, although our reasons may differ. 

In the case of Proteus, the door marked Mutant X is done deliberately to pique the curiosity of the audience. "What's behind that door" is a plot point, albeit one that isn't resolved for a while afterwards. Kitty's date, as you said has a minor plot effect. 

In both these cases, they're certainly not connected to the A-plot, or probably even the B-plot, but they're certainly minor plot points in the books. 

"Just left Professor X in his study" is a little more questionable, but I'd probably grant him a BTS on the grounds that he got an on-panel mention. 

As for the topic at hand, though, I'd say it would really have to depend on how the detention center was presented. If it was the detention center for it's own sake, clearly the writer giving a nudge, nudge, wink, wink, "everyone remember who's in there?" nostalgia trip, then maybe. If Moira was just having a conversation with somebody and happened to be in the detention center, and no particular emphasis was given to the location as a plot point, then I'd say it's no different than any other "We're in the mansion" type shot for BTS apperances.

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Posted: 13 Apr 2006 10:40 pm    
By Jason Doty

I understand that you guys are debating what constitutes a BTS, but don't you think it should be done on a subject that is relavent. In Deadly Genesis, Professor X takes a cab to the research center Moira is working in, in New York. 

At no time are they on Muir Island.

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Posted: 14 Apr 2006 08:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

This is hardly the first thread that's digressed into a related subject. I think we're okay here. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Apr 2006 10:29 am    
By Jason Doty

Its not that the subject changed, but that it's based on something that does not take place where the original author of the post suggested. Other than myself no one has addressed this fact. 

People who read it are going to assume that because X-perts such as you and Dhall are debating what constitutes a BTS that it might take place on Muir Island when it clearly does not. 

I'm just trying to adress possible confusion.

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Posted: 14 Apr 2006 01:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I get your concern, but I think it's pretty clear from reading the thread that: 

(1) you already stated that the X:DG FBs did not occur on Muir Island -- nobody's arguing with you about that. Just because nobody replied to you doesn't mean we didn't take note of your point. 

(2) at this point, people are solely discussing David Hall's hypothetical examples. Yes, his examples do use Muir Island as an example, but I don't think anyone's under the impression that we're still talking about X:DG. 

If anyone was confused, though -- thank you for clearing it up. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Apr 2006 02:02 pm    
By Dhall

Hi Jason, 
Yes we have drifted off the specific subject onto a tangent. 

Yes I did use Muir as an example, but to be honest I haven't read X:DG yet, and I'm certainly not discussing it. 

wolframbane asked about flashbacks in X:DG, and you posted that none of the flashbacks in X:DG take place on Muir Island. 

On the basis of your post, I felt pretty confident in using Muir as an example, precisly because if wolframbane's scenario of flashback's on Muir Island, had been strictly accurate, it would be pretty close to some things that actually occur in early Claremont issues. 

I'm pretty sure that most people reading the thread would understand that we've digressed a bit, and were not in fact discussing an example based directly on X:DG. 

And now that we've digressed even further..... 

Dave

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Thread 10

Posted: 15 Apr 2006 09:59 am    Post subject: BTS Progress on the Calendar
By Paul Bourcier
Director

As you can probably guess, I've been making lots of changes to the Marvel Calendar since it was last posted in February. Not only have there been more comics to add (including some from recent analyses posted on this board), but new clues to placements that have forced (and continue to force) entries to be moved and rearranged. Particularly affected is the last six-month installment (Year 23, June-December). Undergoing some major adjustments are recent X-stories and the comics that tie into the Road to Civil War (Avengers/Spidey/FF, etc.). Things are still shaking out, but I figured it was time for an update of what's going on behind the scenes. 

A new calendar won't be posted for months, but you may want to know what's been added, moved, edited, and deleted between February and April 15, 2006. (And you may see these same comics listed again in future updates! Such is a work in progress...) 


Added: 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #529 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #530 
ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #13 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #13 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #14 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #26 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #27 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #15 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #16 
FANTASTIC FOUR #535 
FANTASTIC FOUR #536 
FOUR #28 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #5 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #6 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #7 
GENERATION M #5 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #88 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #89 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #90 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #91 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #92 
IRON MAN v4 #6 
IRON MAN: THE INEVITABLE #3 
IRON MAN: THE INEVITABLE #4 
LIVEWIRES #6  FB (6p1-6p2) 
LIVEWIRES #6  FB (21p2-22) 
MARVEL PREVIEWS #32 
MS. MARVEL v2 #1 
MS. MARVEL v2 #2 
NEW AVENGERS #17 
NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1 
NEW EXCALIBUR #6 
NEW X-MEN v2 #23 
NEW X-MEN v2 #24 
NEW X-MEN v2 #25 
POWER PACK v2 #1 
POWER PACK v2 #2 
POWER PACK v2 #3 
POWER PACK v2 #4 
PULSE #24 
PUNISHER: BLOODY VALENTINE #1 
PUNISHER VS. BULLSEYE #1 
PUNISHER VS. BULLSEYE #2 
PUNISHER VS. BULLSEYE #3 
PUNISHER VS. BULLSEYE #4 
PUNISHER VS. BULLSEYE #5 
RUNAWAYS v2 #13 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #24 
SENTINEL SQUAD O*N*E #3 
SENTRY v2 #6 
SENTRY v2 #7 
SHE-HULK v3 #6 
SON OF M #4 
SON OF M #5 
SPIDER-MAN & ARANA SPECIAL: THE HUNTER REVEALED #1 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED v2 #14 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED v2 #14/2 
THING v2 #4 
THING v2 #5 
THUNDERBOLTS #100 
THUNDERBOLTS #101 
UNCANNY X-MEN #470 
UNCANNY X-MEN #471 
UNCANNY X-MEN #472 
WOLVERINE v3 #39 
WOLVERINE v3 #40 
X-FACTOR v3 #5 
X-MEN v2 #183 
X-MEN v2 #183/2 
X-MEN v2 #184 
X-MEN v2 #184/2 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #5 
X-MEN: THE 198 #3 
X-MEN: THE 198 #4 
X-MEN UNLIMITED #27 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #14 
X-STATIX PRESENTS: DEAD GIRL #3 
YOUNG AVENGERS #11 

Edited: 
AGENT X #12 (1-6) & (7-17) 
AMAZING FANTASY v2 #8 (1-6) & (7-8) 
AMAZING FANTASY v2 #13 (1-6) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #515 (19-22) 
ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #12 
AVENGERS: FINALE 
AVENGERS/THUNDERBOLTS #6 (23) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #3 (1-21) & (22-23) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #4 (1-6) & (7-22) 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #24 (21) 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #25 (1-3) & (7-21p5) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #9 
CAPTAIN AMERICA: WHAT PRICE GLORY #3 (1-8) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA: WHAT PRICE GLORY #4 
DAREDEVIL v2 #75 
DEADPOOL v3 #44 
FANTASTIC FOUR #527 (1-14) 
FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES #3 (7-22) 
FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES #5  FB (7p2) 
FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES #6 
FANTASTIC FOUR SPECIAL #1 
FOUR #16 
FOUR #19 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #3 
GENERATION M #1 (1-5) & (13-17) 
GENERATION M #2 (14-22) 
GENERATION M #3 (1-16) 
HERCULES #4 (21p1-21p5) 
HERCULES #5 
HOUSE OF M #1 (7-17) 
HOUSE OF M: THE DAY AFTER #1 (3-31) & (32-40) 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #89  FB (3-11), FB (13-14), FB (17-18) 
INHUMANS v4 #1 (1-7), (8-10) & (11-15) 
INHUMANS v4 #7 (1-13), (14-15) & (17-21) 
IRON MAN: THE INEVITABLE #1 (1-15) 
IRON MAN: THE INEVITABLE #2 
LIVEWIRES #3 
LIVEWIRES #4 
LIVEWIRES #6 (1-18p2) 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2005 #1/2 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #12 (19-23) 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #20 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #21 (1-18) 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #22 (1-8) & (9-22) 
MARVEL NEMESIS: THE IMPERFECTS #4 
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #7 (3-22) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #10 
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #13 
NEW AVENGERS #6 
NEW AVENGERS #11 (16-22) 
NEW AVENGERS #14 
NEW AVENGERS #15  FB 
NEW AVENGERS GUEST STARRING THE FANTASTIC FOUR 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #1 
NEW WARRIORS v3 #6 
NEW X-MEN #116 
NEW X-MEN v2 #20 (22-23) 
NEW X-MEN v2 #21 (22-23) 
NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #7 
NEW X-MEN: HELLIONS #4 (1-16) 
PULSE #12 
PULSE #13 
PUNISHER: RED XMAS #1 (4-7p4) 
RUNAWAYS v2 #7 
SENTINEL #12 (1-10), (11), (12-20) & (21-22) 
SON OF M #3 
SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN v3 #23 (21-22) 
SPELLBINDERS #5 
SPELLBINDERS #6 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED v2 #12 (11p4-11p5) 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED v2 #13 
TARGET PRESENTS: READING TO THE RESCUE! #3 
THING v2 #1  FB 
THING v2 #1 (1-7), (8-13p3), (13p4-14), (15-23) 
UNCANNY X-MEN #390 
UNCANNY X-MEN #441 (1-23) 
WOLVERINE v2 #185 (1-8) & (9-21) 
WOLVERINE v3 #36 
X-MAN #71 
X-MAN #72 
X-MAN #73 
X-MAN #74 
X-MEN v2 #109 
X-MEN v2 #179 
X-MEN v2 #180 (1-5) 
X-MEN: BLACK SUN #5 
X-MEN: THE 198 #2 
YOUNG AVENGERS #6 (1-17) 

Moved (and likely edited too): 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #525 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #526 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #527 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #528 (1-18) & (19-22) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #10 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #11 
CABLE v2 #85 
CABLE v2 #86 
DAREDEVIL v2 #76 
DAREDEVIL v2 #77 (1-6) & (7-22) 
DAREDEVIL v2 #78 
DAREDEVIL v2 #79 
DAREDEVIL v2 #80 
DAREDEVIL v2 #81 
DEADPOOL v3 #41 
DEADPOOL v3 #42 
DEADPOOL v3 #43 
DEADPOOL v3 #45 
FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #32 (1-2) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #533 
FANTASTIC FOUR #534 
FANTASTIC FOUR #534/2 
FANTASTIC FOUR #535 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #1 (1-2) & (3-22) 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #2 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #3 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #4 
GAMBIT v3 #19 
LIVEWIRES #2  FB (1) 
LIVEWIRES #3  FB (15p3-16p3), FB (17p1-17p2), FB (17p3), & FB (17p4) 
LIVEWIRES #4  FB (18p5-18p8) 
LIVEWIRES #5  FB (21) 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #19 (1-2) & (3-22) 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #20 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #21 (1-18) & (19-22) 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #22 (1-8) & (9-22) 
NEW AVENGERS #16 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #18 
NEW X-MEN v2 #20 (22-23) 
NEW X-MEN v2 #21 (22-23) 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #1 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #2 
SENTINEL #12 (11), (12-20) & (21-22) 
TARGET PRESENTS: READING TO THE RESCUE! #3 
THING v2 #1 
THING v2 #2 
THING v2 #3 
TOXIN #6 (20-22) 
X-FORCE #102 (7-12) 
X-FORCE #103 
X-FORCE #104 
X-FORCE #105 
X-FORCE #106  FB (20-21p3, 22-23) 
X-FORCE #106 
X-FORCE #107 
X-FORCE #108  FB (7-9) 
X-FORCE #108 
X-FORCE #109 (1-19) & (20-22) 
X-FORCE #110 
X-FORCE #111 
X-FORCE #112  FB (19p2-19p3) 
X-FORCE #112 
X-FORCE #113 
X-MEN v2 #180 (6-11) & (12-22) 
X-MEN v2 #181 
X-MEN v2 #182 
X-MEN v2 #183 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #1 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #2 (1-11) & (12-21) 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #3 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #4 
X-MEN: DECLASSIFIED #1 
YOUNG AVENGERS #6 (18-22) 
YOUNG AVENGERS #7 
YOUNG AVENGERS #8 
YOUNG AVENGERS #9 
YOUNG AVENGERS #10 
YOUNG AVENGERS SPECIAL #1 

Deleted: 
DISTRICT X #10-FB (duplicate entry) 
FANTASTIC FOUR v3 #32  FB (duplicate entry) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #530  FB 
MACHINE TEEN #4-FB (duplicate entry) 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2005 #1  FB (6p5-6p8) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #15 
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #16 
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #17 
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #18
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 11

Posted: 16 Apr 2006 07:20 am    Post subject: More on Namor's chronology
By Frederic Krier

Looking into Namor's chronology for the NA:I thread, I noticed that Namor 51 is currently listed between FF 387 and N 52. However, the issue was clearly meant as a FB. There is a footnote on page 2 telling us that "this story takes place before recent events in Namor's life". Namor's short hair (he had long hair from N 26 on until Onslaught), in combination to his being shown as the owner of Oracle Inc., seems to indicate that the story is supposed to take place in the early days of the series. This makes placement actually quite easy: he is no longer thought dead by the rest of the world, which places it after N 5 and he still has his ankle wings, which he loses in the following storyline about Sluj (N 6-N 8), so it has to take place before N 6. 
Of course he was shown to be arrested at the end of N 5 and is out on bail, confronted by journalists at the start of N 6. But at the moment there are already two stories in the chronology between those two issues: AWC 65/2 and M/SH3 10/2. 
This would mean that Namor confronted by the press does not follow his immediate release from jail, but a later hearing (?). In any case M/SH3 10/2 has to happen between N5 and N6 for the same reasons than N51. 
In N 51 it is public knowledge that Namor's the owner of Oracle, which doesn't seem to be the case in N 6 but is in M/SH3 10/2... 

AWC 65/2 however does have to take place earlier in Namor's chronology, as we are told in the last panel that "this episode took place shortly before Namor did reveal his existence to the world". Namor dresses up as the Mad Thinker in a ploy to let the original Human Torch know where Toro's body can be found. Namor ponders on the last page how pointless it is "to keep the fact that I am alive a secret much longer". This probably places this story before the Griffin storyline in N 2 and 3, in which he is much more careless in appearing in public, fighting the Griffin in broad daylight and attacking the board of Roxxon. Namor 4 takes place on the next day. 
Therefore I would suggest the following revised chronology for this period of Namor's life: 
N 1 
H2 370 
H2 371 
AWC 65/2 
N 2 
N 3 
N 4 
N 5 
M/SH3 10/2 
N 51 
N 6 
N 7 
N 8

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Posted: 16 Apr 2006 09:26 am    Post subject: Placement of ASM 260, 261 and Spectacular Spidey 98
By ajbrown

Hey again, 

Currently the Spidey chronology reads: 

... 
PPTSS 98 
ASM 260 
ASM 261 
... 

But the Venom (symbiote costume) chronology reads: 

... 
ASM 260 
FF 274 ~ ASM 261 
PPTSS 98 
... 

This chronology is correct, and the Spidey one is wrong. 

In PPTSS 98 the symbiote costume is seen slithering around the city during the blackout in the issue. However, the symbiote costume does not escape until ASM 261 (and FF 274). The appearances of the symbiote costume are very clearly taking place at the same time as the Spider-man story, and so ASM 260 and 261 need to be placed before PPTSS 98. 

There is no reason why PPTSS 98 should be placed before ASM 260 and 261. In fact, Spidey explicitly says he has "put off" confronting the Black Cat for "too long", implying a decent length of time between issues. Issue 98 is also the beginning of 'the Spot' story-arc and so it would be better to place 98 nearer 99 and 100. 

Therefore, Spidey's chronology should read: 

... 
ASM 260 
ASM 261 
PPTSS 98 
... 


Cheers! 
AJ
_________________
AJ

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 11 Apr 2006 09:23 am    Post subject: Marvel Team-Up v3 #19
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone know where M/TU3 19 should go in the chronologies of Cable, Wolverine, Jubilee, Nick Fury, and the Mandarin?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Apr 2006 09:25 am    
By jephyork
Director

Well, before X-Force #7 (where Cannonball "dies") and before W2 #50 and X #4 (where Wolvie switches to his yellow outfit), for starters... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Apr 2006 11:44 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm inclined to stick it in the lengthy gaps before X-MEN #1 and X-FORCE #1, where both characters have extended breaks in their personal continuity, and which has the happy coincidence of placing the story in between appearances from 1991. Any later than that and you're placing the story amongst 1992 publications, which seems unlikely to be the creative intent...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Apr 2006 07:03 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Well, before X-Force #7 (where Cannonball "dies") and before W2 #50 and X #4 (where Wolvie switches to his yellow outfit), for starters... 
<<<

Before Dreams of Gore started surely (I forget the issue number offhand, pick one of Wolverine #45, 46 or 47...) since Wolverine obsesses about the stuff revealed therein until W50.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Apr 2006 07:20 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

How about Mandarin? All throughout 1991, he appears in every issue of IM -- from #160 through #175 (the latter cover dated Dec. 1991). At the conclusion of IM 175, Mandarin's hands are blown off, so that would place M/TU3 19 either before IM 160 or during a break somewhere in the run of IM 160-175.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Apr 2006 07:53 am    
By jephyork
Director

Well, wait -- surely "hands blown off" isn't permanent, is it? When he returns in IM #306, what's his status quo -- did he get his hands back, and if so, how and when? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Apr 2006 07:58 am    
By Somebody

He had dragon-hands rather than human-hands.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Apr 2006 09:12 am    
By jephyork
Director

Heh. Dragon-hands. 

I'd look for a gap close to IM #275, then. Maybe losing his hands in that issue is why he never followed up on finishing and using the Cosmic Ring... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2006 12:17 am    
By Arthur

The closest gap to IM 275 would be between IM 270 and IM 271...about 24 hours or a bit less. In IM 270 Mandarin is aware Tony has arrived in China (relatively early in the day). We don't see the Mandarin until next morning in IM 271. I haven't MTU 19 so I don't know if the motivation is enough to pull Mandy away at that crucial time. 

I think a better gap might be between IM 269 and 270 (approximately 16 hrs.) Mandarin appears in the first part of IM 269 (working out) after which we see Tony at 6:00 a.m.; Tony attends a meeting at 8:00 a.m. Later that morning he gets the news that sends him to China. We next see Mandarin in IM 270 when Tony arrives in China (presumably early the 'next' day which would be that night US time). Although Tony would have been in a rush, I guess you could stretch this out by another day if needed (time to prepare for the trip?)

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2006 09:23 pm    
By Col_Fury

Jubilee asks Cable if X-Force came along with him in MTU3 19, which puts this issue at least after New Mutants 100, where they decide to call themselves X-Force. After NM 100 

NM@ 7, NW@ 1, UX@ 15, & XF@ 6 are a crossover which occur after NM 100. The group is kind of not calling itself the New Mutants anymore, but the title of the book is still New Mutants. Putting MTU3 19 after this annual crossover would be a good idea, if only because of Jubilee's reference in MTU3 19 to 'X-Force.' After XF@ 6 

Mandarin appears in Nick Fury's book in issue 24, and an editor's note tells us that issue happens before all of the previously mentioned Iron Man issues. This book currently occurs out of sequence with the other issues in Nick's book in his own chronology.(between 14 & 15) If the Mandarin appears in MTU3 19 between IM 269 & 270, then MTU3 19 must occur after NF3 24. After NF3 24 

Speaking of Iron Man, Tony appears in Nick's book in issue 27, and that occurs after Iron Man 277 in Tony's chronology. So if NF3 27 is after IM 227, and Mandarin gets his hands blown off in IM 275, then MTU3 19 needs to occur before IM 275, and therefore before IM 277, and therefore before NF3 27. NF3 25 through 29 is a storyline invloving Hydra blowing up SHIELD central. If MTU3 19 has to occur before NF3 27, then it also has to occur before NF3 25. Before NF3 25 

IM 277 occurs before the Infinity Gauntlet, so therefore IM 275(where Mandarin loses his hands) occurs before IG, and MTU3 19 occurs before the Infinity Gauntlet. Before Infinity Gauntlet 

So what do we have? 

After NM 100 
After XF@ 6 
After NF3 24 
Before NF3 25 
Before Infinity Gauntlet 

Arthur has already laid out the Mandarin's case for us, so here're the others: 

Wolverine 
... 
UX 277 
*MTU3 19 
IG 2 
... 

Nick Fury 
... 
H2 380 
*MTU3 19 
IG 1 
... 

Jubilee 
... 
UX 277 
*MTU3 19 
UX 278 
... 

Cable 
... 
XF@ 6 
*MTU3 19 
W2 41 
... 

All of these issues were published in 1991, preserving creator's intent!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2006 12:10 pm    
By Megalictis

Quote: 
>>>
Cable 
... 
XF@ 6 
*MTU3 19 
W2 41  
<<<

Wait, Cable wasn't in Wolverine (II) #41, was he? 


Quote: 
>>>
Jubilee 
... 
UX 277 
*MTU3 19 
UX 278  
<<<

Also, I thought Nick Fury didn't meet Jubilee until Wolverine (II) #42 (LATE 7/91)?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2006 05:18 pm    
By Col_Fury

Megalictis wrote: 
>>>
Wait, Cable wasn't in Wolverine (II) #41, was he? 
<<<

Yup, he's even on the cover. 


Megalictis wrote: 
>>>
Also, I thought Nick Fury didn't meet Jubilee until Wolverine (II) #42 (LATE 7/91)? 
<<<

Jubilee was surprised that Forge knew Nick Fury in W2 42, but I didn't see anything to say that Jubilee never met Fury before that issue.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 14 Mar 2006 05:28 pm    Post subject: First Family
By Chris McCarver

I was wondering if this series was to be declared a non-canon revamp of the FF's origin, since it contradicts previously established canon (Ben's less than happy reunion with Linda McGill after the spaceflight in M/FAN 46)? Or is that something that can be worked around?
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2006 06:34 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If the only problem is a contradiction with an obscure Marvel Fanfare story involving a little-known character, I'd be very reluctant to declare it non-canon. It's almost certainly intended to be canon, just as Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes was.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2006 06:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It's almost certainly intended to be canon, just as Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes was. 
<<<

But we know how that ended up.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2006 09:29 pm    
By Mikhail

Umm....how?

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2006 09:56 pm    
By Chris McCarver

Curious myself on that one..?
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2006 11:15 pm    
By jephyork
Director

It contained a bunch of drastic revamps of previously established scenes, that we eventually rationalized off as new scenes that just happened to be similar. 

"Um, Rick Jones is abducted -- escapes off-panel, I guess -- then is abducted again under different circumstances! Yeah!" 

Etc... 

I still consider it canon, for what it's worth, and just shrug when presented with conflicting scenes. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2006 07:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

For my money, if the series broadly follows the thrust of the original stories and differs only in minor details of plot mechanics, I'm perfectly happy to regard any discrepancy as artistic licence. Admittedly that causes some problems in interweaving the scenes, but that's a separate question from the primary "is this canon at all?" issue.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2006 07:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I found the first several issues reconcilable with events as they actually occurred in the mainstream MU, but by the end Earth's Mightiest Heroes jumped the track and it became impossible to dovetail its scenes into the canonical stream of events. Believe me, I tried...really hard. (I didn't want my investment to be in a story that didn't "count.") I came to the point in which I finally threw my hands up. I did want to try to shoehorn in the early issues, but if the series as a whole doesn't fit, then none of its parts should be canonical. 

I would assign Earth's Mightiest to a similar reality, perhaps the same one in which Professor X and the X-Men, Hulk: Gray, Spider-Man: Blue, etc. might reside. 

Hmm. That's a thought. Could all these books that occur in a similar reality to the mainstream MU occur in the same reality?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2006 08:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

If that reality is "non-canon-land", sure.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2006 09:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Maybe call it the "Retcon Universe." 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Mar 2006 05:17 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If it's simply a resequencing of events then I'd regard that as artistic licence. Admittedly it presents real problems in identifying a chronological sequence for scenes, but I don't see that as a fundamental objection to canonicity. I'm very reluctant to disqualify books which would otherwise be canonical merely because of essentially trivial details.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Mar 2006 07:47 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Chris McCarver wrote: 
>>>
I was wondering if this series was to be declared a non-canon revamp of the FF's origin, since it contradicts previously established canon (Ben's less than happy reunion with Linda McGill after the spaceflight in M/FAN 46)? Or is that something that can be worked around? 
<<<

I don't see a contradiction. 

Nowhere in M/FAN 46 does it say that Linda returns to see Ben for the first time. It just has her stop by his apartment and leave. She could still be in shock over the transformation. She saw him first in First Family, got distraut and left, tried AGAIN to see him in M/FAN 46, got scared and left, and only then did Ben realize how difficult it would be for them to be together and he scared her off for good. 

It fits in perfectly fine as far as I can tell.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Mar 2006 05:50 pm    
By Chris McCarver

You'd know of all people, Sean.  

Thanks for all the opinions, guys. 
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Mar 2006 02:31 am    
By Enda80

I guess we will have to dump this into the same continuity hole as Daredevil the Man Without Fear, Adventures of Captain America, the Sentinel of Liberty, Children of the Atom, Hulk Annual 1999, Spider-Man Chapter One, and Conan the Barbarian I#232-240 (though at least in the last case, Roy Thomas jumped in to write the last issue to have Conan acknowledge the whole story to Zenobia as a tall tale he spun to amuse his son Conn).

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Mar 2006 09:14 am    
By jephyork
Director

... ... ... ......... John, the two posts above yours came to the conclusion that First family HASN'T contradicted anything yet. On what basis are you advocating declaring it non-canon? 

I think you just like making lists, and wanted to mention a bit of Conan trivia. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Mar 2006 09:56 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I think you just like making lists, and wanted to mention a bit of Conan trivia. 
<<<

Heh. 

Of course, having read that, I feel obligated to point out that Conan the Ursurper would have been a better example of a non-canonical historical miniseries. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Apr 2006 10:38 am    
By Mikhail
Director

Well, now we have more explicit canon-defying incidents in the second issue. 

-Sue Storm generated a force field here prior to FF #1, while she only learned the ability in the 20s originally. 

-Sue being unable to turn her clothes invisible, something she could do from the very first manifestation of her powers after the crash. 

-The cosmic radiation storm is now credited with creating unstable molecules for their flight suits (like the Movie) instead of Reed doing it himself. 

Reinterpretational non-canon? Survey says...yes!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Apr 2006 11:08 am    
By rhod

I was under the impression (since long before the movie) that the cosmic storm DID create the unstable molecules of the FFs costumes, which Reed analysed and duplicated for the rest of their wardrobe (as well as eveerybody elses!). This would also explain why Sue can't turn her clothes invisible at this point. 
The force field thing could present a problem though.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Apr 2006 08:19 pm    
By Mikhail

Well, the scene in First Family where Sue can't turn normal clothes invisible and Reed is thinking of mass-producing the unstable molecules into new clothing takes place after FF #1, where Sue turned herself and normal clothes invisible after seeing the 4 Flare.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Apr 2006 03:48 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Mass production and individual outfits are two very different things. Johnny notes somewhere around FF #12 that he still has to specially treat all of his clothes so they don't catch on fire when he does. Ben and Johnny also taunt Reed in #10 to ensure that he is indeed where his special unstable molecule suit, and not just a normal one. It stands to reason that Reed was able to produce a few unstable molecule outfits for each member easily enough, but turning them into a mass prodcued product was something that took considerably longer. 

I don't know that the comment about mass producing unstable molecule clothes in First Family is particularly significant one way or another.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Apr 2006 07:31 pm    
By Mikhail

"Mass-produce" was my own wording, and apparently a bit misleading. The actual scene has Reed orating while we see Sue turning invisible but leaving her clothing in plain sight. And, as Reed notices he doesn't have her attention... 

Reed: Sue? 

Sue: Sorry. Turns out my invisibility is limited when it comes to my corresponding wardrobe... 

Reed: Oh, don't worry about that. There's a reason I had us wear our flight suits on our trip to Monster Island...they seen to have been affected just as we were. Their molecular structure has become unstable. I may be able to duplicate the process. 

This exchange says two things to me: one, Sue is just discovering this limitation (one which she has never possessed previously), and two, Reed has yet to duplicate the unstable molecular process AT ALL.

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Posted: 19 Apr 2006 08:30 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Mikhail wrote: 
>>>
"Mass-produce" was my own wording, and apparently a bit misleading. The actual scene has Reed orating while we see Sue turning invisible but leaving her clothing in plain sight. And, as Reed notices he doesn't have her attention... 
<<<

Sorry. Didn't have my copy of the issue handy. 


Mikhail wrote: 
>>>
Reed: Sue? 

Sue: Sorry. Turns out my invisibility is limited when it comes to my corresponding wardrobe... 

Reed: Oh, don't worry about that. There's a reason I had us wear our flight suits on our trip to Monster Island...they seen to have been affected just as we were. Their molecular structure has become unstable. I may be able to duplicate the process. 

This exchange says two things to me: one, Sue is just discovering this limitation (one which she has never possessed previously), and two, Reed has yet to duplicate the unstable molecular process AT ALL. 
<<<

I see your point, but I still don't think the apparent change carries much weight. 

Stan and Jack were inconsistent on that very point early on in the first place. They themselves noted that Sue's costume would only turn invisible because it was made of unstable molecules... AFTER #1 where she's clearly shown disappearing in her civilian clothes. 

Since it was later retconned that she could turned anything she wanted invisible -- including whatever clothes she was wearing -- I think we can chalk her inconsistency up to lack of practice and control. The unstable molecules presumably made the process easier for her, and helped her gain mastery over her powers. 

We can look too at her force fields in the same way. The first mention of her using them was in FF #23. But Chris Claremont later retconned things so that she subconsciously used them immediately after the Pocket Rocket crashed. Casey uses a similar technique in First Family #2. 

So those both suggest that Sue's powers were initially very intuitively based, and it took her quite some time to gain a conscious mastery over them.

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Posted: 19 Apr 2006 09:08 am    
By Somebody

Wasn't the Claremont version retconned out again by Waid? After all, CC had Johnny go nova the first time he used his power...

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Posted: 21 Apr 2006 08:25 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I don't believe so. There have been a handful of writers who've touched on the FF's origin since Claremont's retcon, but I don't recall anyone who's expressly said Claremont's additions didn't happen. 

Remember, there's a difference between an actual retcon and simply omitting or glossing over details.

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Posted: 22 Apr 2006 12:38 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

As I read FIRST FAMILY #2, Sue uses her force field power subconsciously, but isn't aware that she's doing it. That doesn't contradict any other stories from the period, as I understand it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 15

Posted: 29 Mar 2006 02:16 pm    Post subject: Grrr! Now JMS is doing it!!!
By SKleefeld
Director

Okay, we all know how Brian Michael Bendis has ZERO sense of time when it comes to story references, right? Well, evidently, J. Michael Straczynski is taking notes. 

Last week's Amazing Spider-Man #530 featured Peter Parker and Tony Stark talking to some folks on Capitol Hill. At one point a senator calls for a 10-minute recess, during which Peter notes that the time is 10:35. This is visually confirmed by his digital watch. They go back inside for, according to the caption, four hours and fifteen minutes. At the end of which, the committee is recessed until 9 am the next morning. 

Now, as Peter and Tony leave, they're accosted by reporters and news people and we see Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman watching the broadcast live. Theoretically, this should occur at either 3:00 pm or 3:00 am since we're never actually told whether Peter's 10:35 is am or pm either. 

This week, over in Fantastic Four, Reed is seen watching CNN at, according to the TV reporter, "a little after four a.m." My first thought was that we could easily rationalize the discrepency by saying that it took Peter and Tony an hour to walk out of the building to meet the reporters. But then, a little later, as Reed continues to watch CNN, the reporter notes, "industrialist Tony Stark left Washington late yesterday after testifying..." followed by a sound-byte lifted directly from ASM. 

Now, it's still easy enough to say that Reed and Sue watched the events unfold live one day and just happened to catch the news highlights again the next day in which they were re-broadcasting the clip. I know I've seen the same footage used in different news reports over the years, so not a big deal there. 

But, Geez Louise, how much effort does it take to change the reporter's dialogue to say, "It's a little after three a.m." and "Stark is leaving Washington now after testifying..."? I mean, what'd I have to change? Three words? The meaning is absolutely no different and has zero impact on the overall story. 

I can understand if two different writers were working on it, but how hard should it be for your own stories to have their own internal continuity? 

Feh!

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Posted: 30 Mar 2006 06:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This is happening all too often lately. I've been noticing a number of similar inconsistencies and am learning to grit my teeth and ignore some references or rationalize them away as you have. Basic storytelling, people...let's work on it! 

Or...maybe this just confirms that Marvel Time cannot be measured by calendars or clocks. The entire Marvel Universe is just so fluid that you can't even rely on short-term temporal references as short as an hour! The laws of time and space in the MU are different...yeah, that's the ticket...different...hmm...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Mar 2006 12:07 pm    
By  rhod

How about setting this story on March 26th (or whenever Daylight Savings Time starts on the US East Coast)? This means the extraneous hour is actually correct!
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Posted: 30 Mar 2006 01:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

When was the last time a Senate meeting went until 3 am? 

And, when Peter and Tony leave -- it's light out, isn't it? 

I'd say it's pretty clear that it was 10:35 am and 2:50 pm. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 12:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I picked up a copy of FF 536. Arrggghhh!! 

Even if you ignore the times of day, the sequence of events as told in ASM 530 and FF 536 are totally different. In ASM 530, it's clear that the Illuminati meeting occurs before the senate committee hearing. In FF 536, it's clear that the hearing occurs before the Illuminati meeting. 

In the Illuminati meeting, Iron Man presents an early draft of the Superhero Registration bill, saying "it was slipped to me under the table." So did he have this draft before the hearing, or did he get it at the hearing? 

In what direction did Stark flip-flop on his stance? Urge cooperation at the Illuminati meeting then defy it in the hearing, or vice versa? Was the Illuminati meeting convened in anticipation of Stark's hearing or as a result of it? 

I'm afraid Straczynski is suffering for "Bendisitis." Should we send him a "get well" card? Or maybe just ask him what's up? 


How about this sequence? 

Midnight (following the day Stark gives Spidey version 1.0 of the new costume in ASM 529) -- The Illuminati meet until about 4 AM 

After sunrise that morning (it's light out in New York) -- Stark and Parker fly to Washington 

Mid-morning -- They arrive in DC and Peter checks into his hotel room (and checks out version 2.0 of his new costume) 

Noon -- Stark and Parker appear before the senate committee 

"Four hours, fifteen minutes later" (ASM 530), at "a little after four" (FF 536, but it's 4 PM not 4 AM), Stark and Parker finish for the day with the committee and Reed Richards finally gets home from the Illuminati meeting, after an unexplained delay of about 12 hours. The rest of the FF are in bed sleeping, perhaps catching naps after an unpublished adventure kept the three of them up through the previous night. It is dark in NYC because it's an overcast winter day. In Washington, the sky is already pink with an approaching sunset. 

The press talk to Stark as he leaves the hearing. Reed and Sue catch the interview live on TV (as they do in ASM 530), not taped from "yesterday" (as in FF 536). We should ignore some dialog from the news broadcast. 
 

Stark and Spidey face off with Titanium Man in Washington as dusk nears in the Eastern time zone, while the FF get a call about the Doombot incident in Oklahoma. 

The FF arrive in Oklahoma after dusk, Central Time (perhaps the ride in the Fantasticar lasted a couple of hours, as we see a night sky and stars in OK). They fight Doombots and encounter Doom himself, who's after a special prize. 

I dunno. I'm sure other scenarios are possible, but I recommend contacting JMS.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 12:16 pm    
By Somebody

1) Stark doesn't want the bill to pass - he's being purely pragmatic about it to the Illumanati. He's urging PUBLIC support for the bill, but the Senate hearing is PRIVATE. 

2) Stark has a copy of the bill and shows it to Peter on the way to the Senate hearing. 

And I'd tenatively suggest (not having read NA:I) ignoring the ASM footnotes and place the Illumnati meeting after the ASM arc, and say Stark was up late doing something else. He realises after his trip to Washington that he can't talk them out of it, so tells the Illumanati to support it.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 01:57 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In the Illuminati meeting, Iron Man presents an early draft of the Superhero Registration bill, saying "it was slipped to me under the table." So did he have this draft before the hearing, or did he get it at the hearing? 
<<<


If he got the bill at the hearing, there would be no reason for it to be slipped to him under the table. Hearings on a bill are after the bill is introduced and reffered to committee. Once a bill is introduced, the bill is available to the public. In order for the "under the table" comment to have any meaning, the Illuminati meeting needs to be several days to even months prior to the hearing.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 04:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
And I'd tenatively suggest (not having read NA:I) ignoring the ASM footnotes and place the Illumnati meeting after the ASM arc, and say Stark was up late doing something else. He realises after his trip to Washington that he can't talk them out of it, so tells the Illumanati to support it. 
<<<

I thought of that, too. This sequence would necessarily involve Reed and Sue watching TV coverage of Stark's interview twice -- once live before the Illuminati meeting and once taped the day after. 

One other awkward note -- at the Illuminati meeting, Stark explains the Superhuman Registration Act, although it would have been widely known by that point, thanks in part to the press coverage of the Stark hearing. Perhaps Tony explains it for the benefit of Black Bolt and Namor, who may not be on top of the news. 

So, do we have the following sequence? 
ASM 529 (Spidey's new costume debuts) 
[BTS] (Stark attends a mysterious midnight meeting) 
ASM 530 (Senate hearing) 
ASM 531 (Titanium Man battle) 
NA:I (Illuminati meeting) 
FF 536 (Doom in OK) 
FF 537 (continued)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Apr 2006 02:57 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Is there any particular reason why Reed can't simply be delayed on his way back from the Illuminati meeting, allowing sufficient time for ASM 530 to happen before he gets back? That seems far and away the simplest solution.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Apr 2006 06:15 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The problem is he's watching TV coverage of the Stark hearing twice, both times with Sue -- once as a live broadcast in ASM 530 and once as a taped report from the previous day's events in FF 536. If his return from the Illuminati meeting coincides with the live broadcast, Reed is delayed about 12 hours. If his return from the Illuminati meeting coincides with the taped report AND the Illuminati meeting occurred before the hearing, then not only is Reed delayed a good 24 hours, but we'd have to explain how he was back at the Baxter Building watching the live feed with Sue while he was delayed. Ugh. 

The sequence I proposed in my last post solves this problem by suggesting that the Illuminati meeting occurs after the hearing, allowing Reed to see the live broadcast before the meeting and the taped report upon his non-delayed return after the meeting. The two problems with this sequence, however, are: 
1) making up another all-night meeting for Tony before the hearing (and ignoring the editor's footnote in ASM 530) 
2) dealing with the consequence that AFTER the hearing Tony presents the Illuminati a draft of the bill that was slipped to him under the table. 
These two issues are dealt with fairly easily and doesn't involve ignoring dialog by trying to conflate the two TV broadcasts.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Apr 2006 06:29 am    
By Somebody

Had a look @ ASM again - doesn't work, since there's an actual flashback to the Illumnati meeting, which I'd forgotten about. 

Look, we know the order: 

ASM refers to NA:I. 
FF refers to NA:I **and** ASM. 

Therefore, the order is NA:I, ASM, FF. That's all we need here, after all.

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Posted: 03 Apr 2006 07:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Ah, I see the problem. Reed's cameo in ASM 530 can't be reconciled with FF 536 without ignoring the editorial references to NA:I in one or other issue. 

Since Reed's appearance in ASM 530 is a cameo, my inclination is simply to ignore it as a continuity error, rather than attempt to reconcile it. Alternatively, it's out of chronological sequence and depicts the scene in FF 536.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Apr 2006 10:45 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Alternatively, it's out of chronological sequence and depicts the scene in FF 536. 
<<<

I like that. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Apr 2006 07:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Therefore, the order is NA:I, ASM, FF. That's all we need here, after all. 
<<<

Except it's not that simple when it comes to MCP listings. Do Reed and Sue actually appear in ASM 530 or do we ignore that or conflate it with FF 536 as a flash-forward? I find it hard to swallow the latter, since it involves (possibly unnecessary) restructuring of page/panel sequence (which many folks here are usually loathe to do, IIRC). Plus, you'd have to assume the reporter's question to Stark as shown on the Richardses' TV in ASM 530 was inadvertently dropped from the broadcast dialog in FF 536. 


Quote: 
>>>
Had a look @ ASM again - doesn't work, since there's an actual flashback to the Illumnati meeting, which I'd forgotten about.  
<<<

I suppose you could interpret that panel as an error or a flash-forward as well (or even better) than the panel with Reed and Sue. 


I think we've exhausted the possibilities here. Anyone know the best way to ask JMS himself?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Apr 2006 10:48 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, I know JMS is doing a column now for Newsarama...so he's probably hanging around the Newsarama message boards, waiting to reply to message posts that catch his interest...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Apr 2006 10:30 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Despite "exhausting the possibilities" and my guess that JMS won't really have a good answer for us regarding continuity, here's my two cents on what seems to makes the most sense with the information we currently have... 

ASM #529 -- Stark creates a new Spider-suit. 

NA:I -- Stark, Richards, Strange, et. al. meet to discuss the proposed new bill that Stark has heard about. 

ASM #530 -- The next day, Stark heads off to Washington and discusses the same legislation with Parker before appearing before a Senate committee. We have a flashback to NA:I and the heavily implied suggestion that the meeting occurred the previous night. As Stark and Parker leave, they are accosted by reporters; Reed and Sue Richards catch this event on live TV. Parker notes that the new Spider-suit is less than 24 hours old. 

ASM #531 -- Titanium Man battle. Some previews also suggest that Parker appears before the Senate committee as Spider-Man, implying that this indeed occurs the next day after ASM #530. 

FF #536 -- Reed is up late and happens to have the TV on. The CNN headlines report yesterday's news about Stark and Parker appearing before the Senate committee. It also notes that Stark has left DC, further suggesting that this occurs after ASM #531 when we evidently have his continued involvment with the committee. Sue comes into the room, asking about "his meeting" (not specifying which one) and Reed's memory drifts into the meeting from NA:I -- without his ever stating that was the meeting he just came from. It's worth noting that: a) Reed already had the TV on when the Stark story is broadcast -- he wasn't necessarily looking for news about it; b) neither Reed nor Sue are at all surprised by the news, and in fact seem somewhat disinterested, suggesting that they knew of the events already; and c) there is no explicit mention of where Reed was immediately prior to this issue. 

I'm going to have to cite Occam's Razor here. I think reading other than this one requires dismissing portions of the overall story and/or creating unnecessarily burdensome explanations. This is, as far as I can tell, the simplest solution. 


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Posted: 04 Apr 2006 08:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
ASM #530 -- The next day, Stark heads off to Washington and discusses the same legislation with Parker before appearing before a Senate committee. We have a flashback to NA:I and the heavily implied suggestion that the meeting occurred the previous night.  
<<<

But in FF 536, Reed gets in late (early in the AM) and Sue asks Reed, "How did it go?" and we have a flashback to NA:I and the heavily implied suggestion that the meeting just happened. Same implication as in ASM 530. 

Yet, applying Occam's Razor would favor your sequence, Sean. We can surmise that Reed was out for some other reason just prior to FF 536 -- presumably related to recent events concerning the Superhuman Registration Act (maybe yet another, unpublished, meeting of the Illuminati). When Sue asks him how it went, she obviously refers to the meeting he just attended, since she saw Reed the previous day, after the Illuminati meeting seen in NA:I (they were watching live coverage of the Stark interview in ASM 530). Sue's question, though, causes Reed to flash back, not to the meeting he just had, but rather to the meeting from the previous night (early morning). 

A day-by-day breakdown would go: 

DAY 1 
ASM 529 

DAY 2 
NA:I 1 
ASM 530 
ASM 531 

DAY 3 
FF 536 
FF 537 


I'm cool with this, at least until ASM 531 and FF 537 muck things up again.  I'd still be interested in what JMS would have to say, though.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 04:34 pm    
By Andy Grant

How about Reed has a doohicky enabling him to receive all variations of TV and on this particular screen he was watching CNN in Mountain Time?

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Thread 16

Posted: 14 Dec 2005 10:51 pm    Post subject: Secret War Hoopla
By Col_Fury

The last issue is finally out, and shows Maria Hill as Director, taking over for Nick Fury. A chat with Hill and the president in the back of the issue explains why she was chosen to take over, and more or less when. 

As for placement, it fits pretty much where we thought it would. It also answers Nick Fury's status: he quit, and is in hiding as of the end of the issue. His next appearance after this is almost definitely the 'Mother Russia' arc in Punisher. It also leads right into the Wolverine issue of the Pulse, just like we thought. 

Hopefully, Fury regains control of SHIELD in the next couple of issues of Avengers, pre-HoM, or there may be some odd appearances(like Hellions) that we may need to deal with creatively. 

As anticipated as this issue was, it really only answered questions we pretty much already knew the answers to. It's nice to have them confirmed, though.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 11:53 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Allright, I said there'd be a quiz, but my mind is too numb upon reading the political potshots on display in this issue.  

So anyway, moving on, am I correct that there is no single reference to it being "two weeks" prior to New Avengers #1? (wasn't that what Bendis said in the interview? Nice of him to not include the reference in the comic book...) But since that reference isn't in the comic book, then we can really place this anywhere we want to... 

Other things to note: 

At the end of the issue, Director Hill is demanding to speak to the Black Widow, (but obviously, she doesn't get her wish, as the Black Widow and Agent Hill don't meet until "the Murdock Papers". 

The interrogation of Scorcher, which occurs a "couple of weeks" after the end of Issue #5, is noted as having occured on "6/26/06". I somehow doubt the June reference will hold up... 

But more peculiar to me is the taped conversation between Director Hill and the President: it's noted as having occured on "4/15/2007". Which would seem to indicate that Director Hill will remain in charge of SHIELD for several months to come, (and that it was quite some time before she met up with the President...which strikes me as odd).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 12:43 am    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
am I correct that there is no single reference to it being "two weeks" prior to New Avengers #1? 
<<<

I didn't see it either. 

From the dialogue, it looks like Maria Hill chats with the president shortly after she's been appointed as Director of SHIELD.(she's still confused as to the whys & whats of the Secret War, she doesn't know if they should be looking for Fury, & the president seems to give her the 'no superheroes' policy that's she's had in her various appearances) I think the tax day of 2007 is just for future posterity, meaning that when people read the trade years from now, it won't seem so 'dated.' The same goes for the scorcher on 6/26/06. But this would seem to suggest that it took ten months for Maria Hill to be appointed as Director, when Bendis had said in interviews that it would only be two weeks... And how does that line up with D-Man's arrest over in Pulse 12(which is post-HoM, and therefore post-Secret War) that happened a 'month ago' from 4/12/02? Thank you, Mr. Bendis. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
At the end of the issue, Director Hill is demanding to speak to the Black Widow, (but obviously, she doesn't get her wish, as the Black Widow and Agent Hill don't meet until "the Murdock Papers". 
<<<

Which may explain why she wasn't being very helpful when the Widow asked for her assistance in those issues.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 25 Apr 2006 08:55 am 
By jannepie

I was going through Secret War #1 and there's the meeting between high ranking S.H.I.E.L.D. agents in the beginning of the issue. Who are the agents there? 

I'm thinking Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Countess Valentina Allegro de Fontaine, Gabriel Jones, Johanna Maley, Jasper Sitwell, Jimmy Woo and Clay Quartermain. 

What do others think about their identities?

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Posted: 26 Apr 2006 12:22 am    
By Col_Fury

jannepie wrote: 
>>>
I'm thinking Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Countess Valentina Allegro de Fontaine, Gabriel Jones, Johanna Maley, Jasper Sitwell, Jimmy Woo and Clay Quartermain. 
<<<

That's who I have them as. Johanna Maley was the agent who took Captain America's call in one of the bonus features in issue 3, and they gave us a handy picture to match her to her appearance in issue 1. As for the others, defintely. And it's always nice to see Gabe & Jimmy. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 17

Posted: 26 Apr 2006 12:27 pm    Post subject: Marjory Marko appearance?
By wolframbane

For the longest time, the mother of of Juggernaut was never shown or even named. With Juggernaut's listing in OHOTMU, his mother was finally given the name Marjory Marko. Her listing in the MCP is: 

MARKO, MARJORY 
XU 13/2-FB 

In XU 13/2, young Cain is with his father and a woman he calls Mom at a Halloween parade. However, XU 12 has Cain saying is mother died when he was 3 years old. Yet Cain was obviously much older than 3 when he was shown with his mother in XU 13/2. 

Has this ever been explained? Was the woman with Cain in XU 13/2 actually Marjory, and he was later mistaken about her death when he was 3? Was this possibly Sharon Xavier Marko, his later stepmother, and this event occurred after Charles became his stepbrother (he seems a bit older than 10 when he first meets Charles)? Or has there been mention of another stepmother, before Sharon?

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Thread 18

Posted: 26 Apr 2006 01:32 pm    Post subject: Landau, Luckman & Lake
By Megalictus

Has any repersentative of LL&L appeared anywhere since Deadpool III #61 (Funeral for a Freak part 1)?

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Thread 19

Posted: 22 Mar 2006 09:32 am    Post subject: the Official Handbooks and the canonicity of novels
By jephyork
Director

I was reading the Alternate Universes Handbook the other day, and came upon a reference I didn't recognize -- a reference to a crossover between the 2099 X-Men and the 616 X-Men. 

I asked on the X-Men comicboard, and Eric (presumably Eric Moreels of the Handbooks) told me the battle was seen in the Time's Arrow novels. 

Which, of course, raises the question: has Marvel editorial reversed its stance on the canonicity of novels? 

There are two ways to look at this: 

One is that the Handbook editor decided that the reference to the novel should stay because the novel is canon. 

The other is that the Handbook editor allowed the reference to the novel to stay as a cute little Easter Egg. The novel is not mentioned in the Handbook's bibliography, and if pressed, the editor could claim that the Handbook is making reference to an unseen battle that's uncannily similar to the novel -- but not actually the novel, because the novel's not canon. 

I've asked Eric for some clarification here ... but I thought I'd flag it up here as well. This could be interesting. 

Has anyone seen any other novel references in the Handbooks? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 12:13 pm    
By Enda80

You bet. 

The Chameleon's references Adam Troy-Castro's Spider-Man trilogy, 
the Painter of Perils story has referenced a short story from Ultimate Super-Villains, 
Mister Bumpo's Encyclopedia entry references Troy-Castro, 
Kang's entry references the Man Who Stole Tommorrow, 
Chaos Engine has gotten referenced

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 12:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Interesting. 

I wonder, at what point does the excuse "well, it's a whole big bunch of unseen adventures, none of which are actually the novels" fall apart? 

At what point do we consider that, if Marvel editorial keeps allowing these references to see print, that they just might be considering the novels canon? 

I'm hoping Eric will reply ... maybe I should post a link on the X-Board thread to this thread. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 12:48 pm    
By Enda80

Found/recalled more 
Cosmic Cube mentions Chaos Engine 

http://www.sff.net/people/krad/marvel.htm 
from Mr. Keith R.A. DeCandido of the Don't Quit Your Day Job Players

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 01:30 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I wonder, at what point does the excuse "well, it's a whole big bunch of unseen adventures, none of which are actually the novels" fall apart? 
<<<

In light of direct statements from the editor of the books in question, that the books were not canon, we're not close to that point yet. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 01:38 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Understood -- just speculating down the road. 

In general, though -- and this isn't a question I'm asking you, it's more of a point to ponder -- at what point would Marvel's current, implicit actions start to overrule their previous, explicit statements? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 03:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

It was, indeed, Eric Moreels who replied to me -- and below is my second question, his response and my follow-up. I pointed him to this board's thread as well. 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Hey, while I have you, can you clarify Marvel editorial's current stance on novel canonicity? 

A while back, a Marvel editor made the claim that no licensed novel was considered canon. 

Have they changed their minds? 

Or did they just allow that paragraph to be included, without making an official decision one way or the other? (I notice there's no specific reference to the novel in the bibliography.) 
<<<

Eric J. Moreels wrote: 
>>>
AFAIK (since I didn't write the profile in question) there's no cut and dried rule when considering continuity for non-comic sources. It's decided on a case-by-case basis. 
<<<

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Interesting. Your statement seems to imply that a Marvel editor's decision to let a specific novel reference be published, is a decision that that specific novel is canon. 

It's been pointed out to me that a few other novels have been referenced in other places in the various Handbooks. Have you written any of those entries, or had any conversations with any Marvel editor about any of the novel references? Can you confirm that my interpretation is correct -- that although Marvel editorial hasn't said ALL the novels are canon, they ARE saying that the referenced ones are? 

By the way, we're discussing this same issue on the Marvel Chronology Project boards -- you or any of the Handbook personnel are, of course, more than welcome to drop by and offer insight. 
<<<

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 05:46 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I can admire Eric's "AFAIK" qualification, since I, too, try to be very careful in stating absolutes. It is possible that Eric doesn't know that the editor in charge of producing the books had asked me to remove listings of the novels from the project, because the books weren't canon. 

That's pretty cut and dried. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 07:35 pm    
By Mikhail

Almost anything will be put into the Handbooks if the writers can get it past the editors, not just the novels. For instance, the Avengers Arcade Game's plot is referenced in one source (I forget if it was a Red Skull entry, the Avengers Teams Entry, or what).

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Posted: 22 Mar 2006 11:02 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Don't worry, Russ, I noted the "AFAIK" as well. That's why I asked Eric for further clarification. 

But it's interesting to note that when my question was "did Marvel make a canonicity decision, or just publish that paragraph without making a decision?" ... his reply was "AFAIK, non-comic canonicity is decided case-by-case". 

Implying that: as far as he knows, Marvel editorial didn't just shrug and publish the paragraph. They made a single-case decision on the canonicity of a non-comic source (presumably in the positive), THEN published the paragraph. 

Again, though -- you're correct that this is all "as far as Eric knows", and we need further clarification on this. Perhaps one of the other Handbook contributors will chime in, or perhaps Eric will relate an experience with an editor about a novel reference that he DID write. 

We'll see. 

Quote: 
>>>
It is possible that Eric doesn't know that the editor in charge of producing the books had asked me to remove listings of the novels from the project, because the books weren't canon. 

That's pretty cut and dried. 
<<<

You'd think -- but as time passes and new people assume positions of authority, policy alterations are not unheard of. 

Is the editor you refer to still working for Marvel? When did he make this statement? Are any of his fellow editors (meaning, those who presumably would have shared his determination) still working for Marvel? What have other editors had to say on the matter? 

These aren't questions you should feel pressed to answer -- but it certainly seems that Marvel editorial are, for whatever reason, now allowing references to novels into publications that use the word "Official" in their title ... and it's worth exploring the notion that the company might conceivably have changed its policy. 

I see implicit actions ... but like you, Russ, I'd much prefer an explicit statement. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Mar 2006 12:42 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It was the editor of the novels, Keith R. A. DeCandido, who suggested that I remove the listings, since the books weren't canon. They were canon to themselves, which meant that all the novels were in the same universe, and in fact, some of the later books included a "chronology project" of their own, in the epilogs. Many of the novels referred to events in other novels. 


watching: young frankenstein

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Posted: 23 Mar 2006 09:04 am    
By jephyork
Director

I usually refer to universes like that as "616-plus". On Earth-616, the course of events that we see in the comics occured. In the "novel universe", all the 616 events PLUS all the novel events occured. 

Eric replied to my X-Board thread again, and clarified that he has had no DIRECT conversations with an editor about this topic -- but in his opinion, he feels that a reference to an event from a novel, in general, only makes THAT EVENT canon -- not the whole novel. 

I interpret that as: while one or two specific, until-now-unseen events occured on Earth-616, the novel, which occurs as a whole on Earth-616-plus-Novels, isn't canon. 

Given that Eric has had no direct conversations with an editor about this, I'm tempted to shoot the Handbook editors an e-mail and ask what was on their mind when they let the novel references see print -- and whether they were aware of Keith DeCandido's earlier determination. 

Here's a copy of our convo... 

Eric J. Moreels wrote: 
>>>
> Interesting. Your statement seems to imply that a Marvel editor's decision to let a specific novel reference be published, is a decision that that specific novel is canon. 

Well, I said it was on a case-by-case basis. Just because part of a novel or a video game may be mentioned in an official profile doesn't automatically make the whole novel/game canon. 

Granted, there are some novels/games that simply can't be canon (the Marvel Nemesis game I believe is one), but there's no reason others (or parts of others) can't just because they're stories aren't published in comic form. 

I'm not the best person to quote on this topic, though, as I've not written any profiles that have mentioned stories from novels/games, so the above is solely my interpretation of the situation. 
<<<

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
>> Your statement seems to imply that a Marvel editor's decision to let a specific novel reference be published, is a decision that that specific novel is canon. 
> 
> Well, I said it was on a case-by-case basis. 

Right, I did catch that -- that's why I asked if a specific decision to publish a specific paragraph meant that a specific book was now considered canon. 

> Just because part of a novel or a video game may be mentioned in an official profile doesn't automatically make the whole novel/game canon. 

Huh, that's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard someone take quite that tack before ... that "part" of a given story can be canon. 

> there's no reason others (or parts of others) can't just because they're stories aren't published in comic form. 

What do you think of the MCP Administrator's statement that he was contacted by an editor and asked to remove novels from the MCP listings, because Marvel didn't consider them canon? 

I'm not trying to paint you into a corner, or anything -- but I wonder if, after hearing that editor's point of view, you'd (a) argue it, or (b) modify your statement above, where you say "there's no reason [certain novels] can't be canon". I suppose "a Marvel staffer said so" is a compelling reason... 

> I'm not the best person to quote on this topic, though, as I've not written any profiles that have mentioned stories from novels/games, so the above is solely my interpretation of the situation. 

Good to know -- and thanks for taking the time to offer your opinion anyway. If you find yourself discussing the issue with any other Handbook writer, though, feel free to point them to the MCP discussion thread. 

Honestly, what we really need is some insight directly from the editors who allowed the novel references to see print. What were their motivations -- did they consider "just those parts" of the story canon? Did they decide that an entire novel is canon? Did they decide that ALL novels are canon? Were they aware of the earlier editor's decision that they weren't? Or are they not even thinking about it that hard, and just let the novel references see print because they're cute little throwaway references? 

Do you think a Handbook editor would mind an unsolicited e-mail from the MCP staff? 
<<<

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Mar 2006 12:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

A couple of clarifications. 

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Keith was "a Marvel staffer." I think he was on staff with Byron Preiss. 

I don't want to put words in Keith's mouth, but the impression he left me with was that the canon issue was not Keith's determination. It was a determination that was handed down to him, by "Marvel", whatever that means. Keith would have been thrilled to have the comics treat the novels as canon. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 23 Mar 2006 01:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hmm. Thanks for the clarification. 

So, although Eric gave us all the insight he had, unfortunately we haven't learned much beyond our initial observation of "for some reason, Marvel is starting to reference the events of certain novels in certain Handbook entries". 

I guess we can't go much further until we get that reason. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Mar 2006 04:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Russ is right, Keith was an editor at Byron Preiss. I dealt with him around the same time.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Mar 2006 02:10 pm    
By Somebody

FYI - http://www.comicboards.com/xmb/view.php?trd=060324184803

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Posted: 24 Mar 2006 11:10 pm
By Jason Doty

After going to the above post and checking out the OHOTMU site, it is becoming painfully obvious that with a change in editorial what was once considered non-canon may be reversed or changed depending on how Marvel feels at the time. 

Since we as a group like to keep with Marvel's official line at the time. Why not include the novels that are made mention of as they come up, acknowledging that they have changed their minds on what was once considered non-canon. 

I'm sure if Marvel does not approve they can tell the group they are not canon again. 

Instead of trying to corner any individual at Marvel for a direct answer, which either way could hurt their sales. Lets proceed with what they publish unless we as the fans determine it cannot be because it directly contradicts established continuity.

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Posted: 25 Mar 2006 12:30 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Firstly, sorry, Jason, but you may have us confused with someone else. We've never been overly concerned with keeping with Marvel's official line at the time. 

Secondly, Marvel hasn't said that the novels are canon. Read the thread referenced above, again. They're being careful to avoid saying that. 

Thirdly, even if Marvel did say the novels were canon, we're not bound by that. I'm certain I've stated this dozens of times, but for clarity's sake, I'll point it out again: 

Stories published by Marvel are canon, unless: 

a) Marvel says it isn't; or 

b) it can't be. 

Nowhere in there does it say that "stories are canon, if Marvel says they are." Marvel doesn't need to say they're canon; we already start with that assumption. 

Now, first of all, the novels weren't published by Marvel, but in any case, I've been told by the editor of the stories in question that the stories aren't canon. I'd want to be flat-out told by the current crop of editors that the novels are canon, and that stories in the comics will respect and hue to the events in the novels, with the same degree of certainty that I was told that they weren't canon, before I'd even begin to consider it. 

And, finally (and this is just pure pettiness on my part, I'll be the first to admit), but I'm reluctant to add and subtract listings to the chronologies--when finding places for some of these stories to fit is hard work--on the whim of the current editor-of-the-week. 

...Uh...sorry...this has turned into a rant, and I don't mean it that way... 


watching: a real life simpsons

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Posted: 25 Mar 2006 02:15 am    
By Jason Doty

I'm completly confused by how the site does operate at times. In trying to find evidence if something Marvel published or published in conjunction with someone else was canon, you have always stated editorial intent. Now that Marvel is referencing stories that you were previously told were not canon you state that we are not overly concerned with Marvel's official line at the time, but apparently what they said first is always going to be the official line. 

I admit that no one from Marvel gives a straight answer when they are asked a straight question thats why I would think we would err on the side of what sees print and specifically what they reference. 

and this I don't understand at all. 

The Administrator wrote 
>>>
Thirdly, even if Marvel did say the novels were canon, we're not bound by that. I'm certain I've stated this dozens of times, but for clarity's sake, I'll point it out again: 

Stories published by Marvel are canon, unless: 

a) Marvel says it isn't; or 

b) it can't be. 

Nowhere in there does it say that "stories are canon, if Marvel says they are." Marvel doesn't need to say they're canon; we already start with that assumption.  
<<<

This is what I don't understand. If Marvel says it isn't canon, it's not, but if they say it is, were not bound by that. 

I would think "it can't be canon" would be the only reason for not excepting that a story is not if Marvel publishes it, or publishes it in conjunction with someone else. 

As usual this post is not mean't to question you in any kind of disrespectful manner and my suggestion was in response to never reading anything definative from Marvel. 

After rereading your post, I'm assuming these stories are not canon simply because they were not published by Marvel. In other words the characters were licensed out rather than Marvel having some sort of editorial control over what was published.

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Posted: 25 Mar 2006 03:23 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Okay, fair enough. We'll discuss this, but do you understand that Marvel telling us that a story is canon doesn't serve any purpose? We already assume that it's canon. 

The reason why we put more emphasis on Marvel's statements that a story isn't canon, than we do when they say it is, should be apparent. To put it bluntly, Marvel has a less-than-sterling record, when it comes to canon declarations. And who can blame them? The editor knows that, as soon as he publicly states his book isn't canon, sales will take a nosedive. So Marvel has a vested interest in saying the story is canon, even when it's not, even when it patently can't be. 

Look, here's what it boils down to. The editor of the very stories that you want to include here told me, directly: "I'm flattered that you would include these works in your project, but you should probably remove the books from your listings, because these stories aren't canon." 

Now, you want to include these books, because of some nebulous reference to events in the novels, when no editor (so far) has been willing to state that they *are* canon, and that the comic books will feel bound to respect the events in the novels. 

If a current Marvel editor says, "Keith was mistaken, the novels were canon," or, "We've changed our minds, we've decided the novels are canon," then we can discuss it. But unless someone at Marvel wants to step up and say that, I'll put my faith in the guy that edited the stories. 


watching: tonight tonight

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Posted: 25 Mar 2006 09:11 am    
By lkseitz

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Has anyone seen any other novel references in the Handbooks? 
<<<

I've just become aware of one. Mark Evanier is listed under aliases Baron Zemo has used in ANOHOTMUA-Z #1. I'm told by Kurt Busiek et al on rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe that this happened in the Avengers/Thunderbolts novel.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 25 Mar 2006 09:40 am    
By Enda80

I guess we finally have a name for that pilot of Zemo who impersonated him. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/gruberfr.htm 
"The name Franz Gruber given to him in the prose [Avengers/Thunderbolts] novel was an homage to Tony Gruber, the villain from the Roderick Thorp novel NOTHING LASTS FOREVER-which was filmed as Die Hard. NOTHING LASTS FOREVER was a sequel to a previous novel, called THE DETECTIVE-a homosexual crime thriller. 
http://www.thrillingdetective.com/eyes/leland.html 
This connection was made based on info from the Avengers Assemble website." 

Has the name Franz Gruber appeared in any of the handbooks, or is the reference to the Mark Evanier alias enough?

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Posted: 25 Mar 2006 09:51 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Judging from this thread, the position at the moment seems quite clear. 

1. The editor and authors of the novels did not intend them to be canon. The editor has told us so. 

2. The only reason to think they might be canon is the occasional references to them in the HANDBOOK. 

3. But Eric Moreels, one of the HANDBOOK's lead writers, says that in his view referring to an event from a novel does not imply that the novel is canon. 

4. It follows that the references contained in the HANDBOOK are not intended to imply that the novels are canon. 

5. Therefore there is no reason to think that the novels are canon. 

QED.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Mar 2006 08:32 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It follows that the references contained in the HANDBOOK are not intended to imply that the novels are canon.  
<<<

It also makes you wonder whether ANYTHING is canonical just because it's mentioned in a Handbook...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Mar 2006 11:07 am    
By jephyork
Director

Paul O., unfortunately I can't buy your third point. 

Eric Moreels was quite clear in that he was just offering his opinion. He hasn't written any of the entries, and he hasn't been given any guidance by an editor. His opinion in this matter isn't based on any personal experience. 

Going back to point #2: 

Quote: 
>>>
The only reason to think they might be canon is the occasional references to them in the HANDBOOK. 
<<<

And until we hear from someone who actually wrote those entries, or someone who actually spoke to an editor, or the editor themselves, we can't really proceed any further with your logical deduction. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Mar 2006 12:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul's logical deduction, though, is that there's no reason to think that the novels are canon, and that still holds true. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 27 Mar 2006 01:34 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The conclusion might hold true, but for other reasons. That specific proof is suspect. 

You've said before that the novels aren't canon because the editor said so. There's your proof -- there's your conclusion. That still holds, because nobody's explicitly said differently. 

The Handbooks are starting to IMPLY differently, but -- as I read you -- that doesn't matter to us. Not until we get something explicit. 

All I'm saying is -- Paul's specific proof doesn't hold up, because Eric went to lengths to tell us that his opinion was *uninformed*. 

However, Paul doesn't even NEED to prove his conclusion, because "Keith DeCandido said Marvel said so" is still a completely viable proof. 

So don't worry, Russ. I'm not rabblerousing -- I'm nitpicking.  


As I read you, the only way to prove any or all of the novels canon is to get an explicit statement from the editors. And even that might not be good enough for you.  

At the moment, here's how I read the situation: 

The Handbooks have begun including references to stories from other media -- so far we've uncovered references to novels and video games. 

We're wondering if references to the novels make the novels canon -- but shouldn't we be wondering the same thing about the video game references? 

Well, no -- the games can't be canon because they have no single, set storyline -- every time you play them the actions unfold differently. So logically there's no way the games can be canon, even if the Handbook references them. 

So since the games themselves can't be canon, then we have to interpret the Handbook's video game references as referring to an off-panel story, similar to the video games, but occuring on Earth-616. 

So if the Handbooks are displaying a habit of making references to off-panel stories, similar to those seen in other media, but occuring on Earth-616 ... then that's probably what we can classify the novel references as too. 

Barring an explicit statement from an editor that the novels are now considered canon, of course. 

Which, if I was a rabblerouser, I'd be trying to obtain...  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Mar 2006 02:18 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
We're wondering if references to the novels make the novels canon -- but shouldn't we be wondering the same thing about the video game references? 
<<<

Well, no -- the games can't be canon because they have no single, set storyline -- every time you play them the actions unfold differently. So logically there's no way the games can be canon, even if the Handbook references them. 

Not necessarily. Most video games, certainly all the ones under debate here, are actually rather linear. You've got an established set-up, several key points throughout the game, and an ultimate conclusion. The differences between individual games would be A) the specific camera angles and such unique to an individual player's performance -- this would also include how exactly certain enemies were defeated or when exactly certain generic phrases ("Take that!" or the like) might've been spoken -- and B) if the game protagonist was killed and the game was uncompleted. 

I think the second option we can discount pretty much wholecloth. But if the game IS completed, then it could conceiably be considered canon. 

Yes, as I noted, there will be relatively minor differences between each instance that the game is played. However, that's not unheard of in comic stories. Here's a "ferinstance"... 

The FF's original Kirby-drawn origin, as published, features the FF in blue unitards with white trim taking a rocket up into space. Most re-tellings after that switched the unitards to purple with blue trim. Some made modifications to the rocket's design. All still considered canon. Then we've got a Claremont/Larroca bit that retells the origin -- except the unitards are replaced with more traditional looking space suits colored orange, and the rocket has been replaced by a space shuttle. Still canon. Since then, we've had First Family and The Wedding Special both show us bits of the origin with still different space suit designs (and different coloring) and different vehicle constructions. All still canon. 

If we take all the stories strictly as they're presented, they simply can't work. Even if you're glossing over inane stuff like where everyone was standing relative to one another at a certain time, you've still got some of these bigger "issues" hanging out there. Was it a rocket or was it a shuttle? Were they wearing simple unitards, or full flight suits? If we're to believe ALL the stories are canon, these types of things have to be chalked up to artistic license. They key points are all the same; some of the details just got tweaked a bit. 

So how is that any different than a video game? Whether you hit the enemy on the left before the one the right, or whether I hit the one of the right before the one on the left is ultimately irrelevant, and could be written up as artistic license. The key points -- the opening, the closing, and some of the major plot points in the middle -- are the same using the same, or nearly the same, footage. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that video games ARE canon; I'm just saying that they shouldn't be written off entirely just because they're a different medium. If the game producers come out and say -- as DeCandido did -- that these are NOT canon, we can simply not worry about those particular games. If Tom Brevoort came out said, "Video games canon? That's silly," we can safely ignore all of them. But if there's nothing said one way or another, I think it's valid to keep them under consideration and not dismiss them wholesale.

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Posted: 27 Mar 2006 02:33 pm    
By Somebody

One little point - while it only indirectly bears on the discussion to hand, Bendis wrote the plot & script for the Ultimate Spider-Man game, which is explicitly canon to the Ultimate Universe, and Bendis is doing follow-ups to it in USM. 

And, with that in mind, there's meant to be a 616-based "Classic Spider-Man" game sometime in the next year or so...

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Posted: 27 Mar 2006 04:14 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN computer game - which I never finished because the control system is a godawful chore - does have a basically linear plot. It's a series of pre-scripted animated cut scenes, leading into tasks which you have to complete. And the story won't advance until you complete the task in the way the story requires. So the precise details change, but you have no control over the plot as a whole.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Marvel Short Stories
By metaldragon

There have been a few short story collections where the stories are set between issues or expand on an existing story. They seem to be carefully researched and some were edited by Stan Lee. I have two X-Men ones: "X-Men Legends" and "X-Men: Five Decades of the X-Men". If anyone is interested I could do an analysis of them. 

They bring up one or two interesting little continuity points. For instance in "Welcome to the X-Men, Madrox", they have placed Giant-Size Fantastic Four #4 before the events of Giant-Size X-Men #1 and they mention in "Diary of a False Man" that the Changeling began impersonating Professor X in UXM 40. That one isn't a big change, just an addition to Changeling's entry (plus a few more "aka"s!), but the Madrox one, if taken as cannon, changes things a bit for the calender placement of those two issues. There's an interesting one about Angel learning how to use his wings (Every Time a Bell Rings) and another (Firm Commitments) that expands on the Captain America #172-175 Secret Empire storyline.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 28 Mar 2006 04:55 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
and some were edited by Stan Lee. 
<<<

Call me cynical, but I doubt Stan Lee's involvement in such projects really stretches much beyond lending his name to the book. I just don't see anyone getting their manuscript back with detailed notes from Stan Lee...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Mar 2006 03:23 pm    
By Ocean Doot

Those books have never struck me as well-researched. I've got the "Ultimate Hulk" one, and one of the stories in there "expands" upon Hulk 377. 

It takes place over the course of weeks and weeks, and is meant to be set between issue 376 and 377. But 376 and 377 have always looked to me as if they take place on the same day. (Everyone is wearing the same clothes from one issue to the next, and the dialogue simply suggests that it's all one day.) 

Furthermore, 377 explicitly takes place on the same day as issue 378, which is set explicitly at Christmas. The story in "Ultimate Hulk" is set in a different timeframe entirely. 

Maybe the X-Men ones are better (X-Men fans being generally more obsessive about minutia, from what I've seen), but I'd be willing to bet that if you tried to incorporate all the time references that exist in those anthologies you'd end up with far more questions than answers.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2006 02:10 am    
By metaldragon

Yea, the X-Men short story collections are pretty good. Both books have an "Introduction" by Stan Lee. X-Men Legends even has a continuity guide at the back informing readers when these stories take place and there is even a picture at the beginning of each story (Hmm. Could the art be "official"?). Some of the stories list dates: "Diary of a False Man" has Changeling's diary entries listing the events of UX 40-42 as taking place over the period of Aug 19-Sept 8. "The Stranger Inside" is Rogue's diary entries dealing with Carol Danvers' personality in her head during UX 243-246 (the Australia period post-Inferno) which date them around May 12-July 8. The picture of the cover of "Now" magazine at the beginning of "Chasing Hairy", where Carol Danvers interviews the Beast (right before Avengers 181) for the magazine, says "Sept 1999". Interesting to know if any of these match the "official" calendar? 

X-Men: Five Decades of the X-Men has one story in... you guessed it... each decade: 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s... Sadly no artwork in this one. The first two stories are pretty straight forward (1960s: UX 1 from Iceman's perspective and 1970s: the Secret Empire story arc of CA 172-175). I'm not as sure about the other 3 because I'm less familiar with those eras. Anyone interested in me doing analysis of them? 

I think there is a 3rd (or should I say 1st?) X-Men short story collection called "The Ultimate X-Men". I'd be interested if anyone knows anything about it.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 11:37 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Interesting to know if any of these match the "official" calendar? 
<<<


Here's how things look on the "official" calendar, as based on Olshevsky's work. 

UX 40-42 -- April of Peter Parker's freshman year of college -- miss 

A 181 -- early September of Peter Parker's first year of grad school -- hit 

My initial notes have UX 243-246 occurring between April and July, so the May 12-July 8 time frame is within the realm of possibility for a hit.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 12:05 pm    
By metaldragon

Wow, 2 out of 3 ain't bad!
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 05:03 pm    
By Andy Grant

Consider the Incredible Hulk novel "What Savage Beast". 
It was written by the Hulk writer. The first two chapters were published in an issue of Hulk. And the entire thing was set during a two month gap the Hulk comic jumped over. What advantage is there to considering it non-canonical? 

The Avengers/Thunderbolts novel was a direct sequel to the Avengers/Thunderbolts comic crossover and was marketed as such. To find out what happens to these dangling plots thread, go buy the novel! (and very good it was too - take a bow J Stephen York) 

I believe that Marvel telling Keith the novels weren't canon was just an instruction not to get upset if they got written out of continuity at a later date. From everything I've seen, Keith and his authors bent over backwards to make sure the novels WERE canonical! There were far less continuity errors in those books than in the comics that came out at the same time. Even now, decades later, it's really easy to pick up a book and work out from the details which issues it's concurrent with. 

I would hope that being included in a handbook entry does make an individual novel canonical. And I would really really hope that Roadhog's entry includes Generation X: Crossroads because it's his finest hour and no mistake!

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 09:21 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
UX 40-42 -- April of Peter Parker's freshman year of college -- miss 
<<<

Taking a closer look at things... the M/HOL 1994-FB story featuring Iceman & Beast is the lost "Metoxo the Lava Man" story that takes place between their appearances in UX 47 & 49. Since this is a Christmas story, has this completely thrown off the calendar for that period? That might mean UX 40-42 might have to be pushed back to around an Aug-Sept date in order for that to work? 

I've seen a calendar listing for that period as: YEAR 5. (UX 30/3.67 [Jan] to UX 66/3.70 [Oct], X:HY 1-22 [Nov-Dec]) 

It's clear that UX 28-30 takes place around a Christmas... so it looks like another year has to get inserted in there to accomodate the M/HOL 1994-FB story (or it will have be declared "topical" or non-canon).
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 09:31 pm    
By Ocean Doot

"Consider the Incredible Hulk novel "What Savage Beast". 
It was written by the Hulk writer. The first two chapters were published in an issue of Hulk. And the entire thing was set during a two month gap the Hulk comic jumped over. What advantage is there to considering it non-canonical?" 

The fact that the "Hulk writer" himself, Peter David, has said that the novel was non-canonical. 

The fact that the novel involves Betty getting pregnant, giving birth to Siamese Twins, one of whom is normal-sized, white-skinned and dead, and the other of whom is huge, mutated, grey, and grows up to be the sidekick of the Maestro in an alternate future, and finally dies. *None* of this is ever referenced in the comics. Indeed, nothing from the novel is ever referenced in the comics. 

The fact that the novel takes place during the time when the Hulk was trasnforming into Banner whenever he got angry, placing it between TIH issues 425-436 (the only era during which this was the Hulk's status quo), but it also makes reference to Rick Jones' talk show being on the air. In the comics, Rick Jones didn't become the host of a talk show until after TIH issue 441. 

"What Savage Beast" can't be canonical. 

-- Jason

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 11:35 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Andy Grant wrote: 
>>>
Consider the Incredible Hulk novel "What Savage Beast". 
... 
What advantage is there to considering it non-canonical? 
<<<

Straw man, since no one is looking for advantages to considering it not canon. 


watching: jonny quest

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 11:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The Avengers/Thunderbolts novel was a direct sequel to the Avengers/Thunderbolts comic crossover and was marketed as such. (and very good it was too - take a bow J Stephen York) 
<<<

Pierce Iskegren is mad at you. J. Stephen York wrote "Generation X: Crossroads". 

I, unfortunately, am not J. Stephen York.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Apr 2006 08:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Taking a closer look at things... the M/HOL 1994-FB story featuring Iceman & Beast is the lost "Metoxo the Lava Man" story that takes place between their appearances in UX 47 & 49. Since this is a Christmas story, has this completely thrown off the calendar for that period? That might mean UX 40-42 might have to be pushed back to around an Aug-Sept date in order for that to work? 

I've seen a calendar listing for that period as: YEAR 5. (UX 30/3.67 [Jan] to UX 66/3.70 [Oct], X:HY 1-22 [Nov-Dec])  
<<<

Any reason why M/HOL 1994-FB can't occur after X:HY 22? I couldn't find clues in the flashback that would definitively place it where the MCP has it (between X 47 and 49).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Apr 2006 10:43 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
Any reason why M/HOL 1994-FB can't occur after X:HY 22? I couldn't find clues in the flashback that would definitively place it where the MCP has it (between X 47 and 49). 
<<<


It's because at the end of UX 48 there was a caption that said the next issue would be Iceman & Beast vs Metoxo the Lava Man. The story was never printed and the team rejoined in UX 49 instead. I guess they either thought the Metoxo story just wasn't good enough and was shelved or else they felt the split-up team thing wasn't working and brought them back together sooner, bumping the Angel solo stories to back-ups in Ka-Zar/Marvel Tales and shelving the Metoxo one. Marvel always claimed it was finished and "on file" in the letters column. I think there were rumors that it might get printed in Marvel Fanfare at one point but it never was. They finally printed it in the Marvel Holiday Special 1994.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 24 Apr 2006 11:04 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
It's clear that UX 28-30 takes place around a Christmas... so it looks like another year has to get inserted in there to accomodate the M/HOL 1994-FB story (or it will have be declared "topical" or non-canon). 
<<<

What would be the basis for declaring the story not canon? 


watching: batman

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Posted: 25 Apr 2006 12:08 am    
By metaldragon

I guess I was thinking that it is a bit of a stretch to call a Christmas story "topical". The M/HOL 1994-FB Metoxo story is all about Beast and Iceman explaining Chrismas to him. There is no way it takes place any other time of the year. As far as I can tell, it is THE Metoxo story that was originally supposed to be published in UX 49. It's nature contradicts the "official" calendar as things stand. The only options left are to change the whole calendar or declare it non-canon. Personally, I'd re-think the calendar because Marvel printed it with lots of references to surrounding stories. 

As for placing it after X:HY 22... Bobby is still dating Zelda here and is worried about getting her a Xmas present. She teases him and Hank about being broke when they are at the Coffee-a-Go-Go and she serves one cup of coffee for both of them because that's all they can afford. This is very obviously before Bobby meets Lorna in UX 49 so it can't go later. There might be an arguement for placing it earlier but it would still have to go after UX 39 because Beast is wearing the Blue and Red outfit Marvel Girl gave him at the end of that issue.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 25 Apr 2006 01:51 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It's nature contradicts the "official" calendar as things stand. The only options left are to change the whole calendar or declare it non-canon. 
<<<

See, this is where it would help to be clearer about whether or not you're talking about Paul's Calendar or about the MCP. The MCP has a third option -- not to care that this "Christmas" doesn't line up with other "Christmases". 

And I can't speak for Paul B., but I don't think he or his Calendar declares books non-canon just because of non-matching calendar references, either... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Apr 2006 03:59 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
See, this is where it would help to be clearer about whether or not you're talking about Paul's Calendar or about the MCP. The MCP has a third option -- not to care that this "Christmas" doesn't line up with other "Christmases". 

And I can't speak for Paul B., but I don't think he or his Calendar declares books non-canon just because of non-matching calendar references, either...  
<<<

Ah! Sorry, yes, I did mean the Calendar and not the MCP as a whole. I'm all FOR being inclusive actually. This tangent was actually in support of a placement for the short story "Diary of a False Man" (from X-Men Legends short story collection) which listed dates for UX 40-43 as Aug 19-Sept 8. Paul said that was a "miss" because Olshevsky placed them in April (of the year that started in UX 30 and ends after X:HY 22). If this is the case, M/HOL 1994-FB (between UX 47 & 49) ends up in the summer of that year which is impossible because of it's rampant Christmas-ness. Conclusion: if that run of books is stretched over 2 years, with M/HOL 1994-FB in it's proper Christmas position, it's possible UX 40-43 could be pushed foreward to land on the dates listed in "Diary of a False Man". Whew. Hope that made sense. Sorry for the confusion.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 23 Jul 2006 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 25 Apr 2006 09:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I should probably be more explicit about what Olshevsky concluded in his first "official" X-Men Index for Marvel. 

In the entry for UX 47, he wrote, "This story takes place on a chilly evening in the first half of May, shortly before the Cyclops and Marvel Girl story in the next issue and the Angel stories in KA-ZAR (quarterly) #2 and 3 and MARVEL TALES #30." 

In the entry for UX 48, he wrote, "This story happens during the first half of May, a short time after the Beast and Iceman story in the previous issue. (At the time of this story, Hank McCoy and Bobby Drake have moved to California, but they were still in New York in the previous issue.) Also, this story happens about ten days after the story in FANTASTIC FOUR #72, wherein the Silver Surfer is drained of much of his cosmic power by a weapon called the Sonic Shark....it is when the Silver Surfer loses his power that Quasimodo is released from status atop the clock tower where the Surfer left him immobile." 

In the Marvel Index for the FF, Olshevsky notes that FF 73 "takes place late in the spring of Peter Parker's freshman year of college" and that "issues #73-79 take place with no breaks in continuity over a period of about three weeks ending probably in early June." 

So there is internal consistency in Olshevsky's calendar placements for this period across titles. I have a feeling that stretching a calendar out to accommodate M/HOL 1994-FB on a Christmas between X 47 and 49 would wreak havoc with that consistency and end up throwing a bunch of other temporal references into topical status. 

Getting back to the X-Men Index, Olshevsky further wrote in the entry for UX 48, "The story of the Beast and Iceman versus Metoxo the Lava Man, promised at the end of this issue, has not been published to date." One might surmise that the story in M/HOL 1994-FB is that long-lost story, but I don't suppose it necessarily has to be. 

Olshevsky notes that "the first stories in [X-MEN] #49-52 take place without significant continuity breaks during late May and early June of Peter Parker's freshman year in college," so contemporaneous with FF 73-79. 

If M/HOL 1994-FB was meant to go between X 47 and 49, the writers ideally would have attempted some consistency with the "official" Olshevsky calendar and not have made it a Christmas story.  Also, if the Metoxo flashback were meant to follow X 48 as the "next" X-Men story, then ideally it would have taken place in California, but M/HOL 1994-FB is explicitly set in New York, so it must occur before X 48, wherein Jean recalls how Hank and Bobby moved to California. 

So unless we want to disrupt a lot of George's calendar, our options appear to be: 

to place M/HOL 1994-FB between X 47 and 48 (just before Hank and Bobby move to Cali) and ignore all those Christmas references; or 

to place M/HOL 1994-FB on the Christmas before X 47 -- that would put it a few days before X 29 -- and ignore Hank's costume (which he didn't get until UX 39); or 

to place M/HOL 1994-FB on the following Christmas -- that would put it during the several-months-long gap between X:HY 22 and AA2 11-FB -- and find an explanation for why Bobby would be dating Zelda again after falling for Lorna. Zelda's previous appearance in this scenario would be in X:HY 2, in which Zelda gets ticked at Bobby for having dumped her (by vanishing without a word for "weeks") and gets upset when Bobby mentions Lorna. I suppose it's possible for a rebounding Bobby and Zelda to have gotten back together for a time shortly after X:HY 22. There's certainly enough time in the gap for such a relationship to have been rekindled then to have crashed and burned given Bobby's true feelings. 

So we're weighing the likelihood of a reuniting of Bobby and Zelda against ignoring a bunch of Christmas references central to a story. Are there other references in M/HOL 1994-FB that tip the scales more toward a placement between X 47 and 48?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Apr 2006 09:22 am    
By metaldragon

Actually, the most comfortable place it would fit would be in the earlier spot and just call Beast's costume an art error or, I suppose, since it's done as a flashback, Beast, Iceman, and Metoxo mis-remember which costume he was wearing at the time... To put it later would require all kinds of continuity to happen behind the scenes. The style of writing and their civilian clothing is more like the pre-UX 39 individual costumes period than later anyway. 

Quote: 
>>>
So there is internal consistency in Olshevsky's calendar placements for this period across titles. I have a feeling that stretching a calendar out to accommodate M/HOL 1994-FB on a Christmas between X 47 and 49 would wreak havoc with that consistency and end up throwing a bunch of other temporal references into topical status. 
<<<

Actually, there are a few references in X-Men stories leading up to UX 47 that he passes off as "topical" like Spider-Man's "summer cold" in UX 35 (for example) which would actually push the stories further foreward if he hadn't discounted them to fit his calender placement. 


Quote: 
>>>
Getting back to the X-Men Index, Olshevsky further wrote in the entry for UX 48, "The story of the Beast and Iceman versus Metoxo the Lava Man, promised at the end of this issue, has not been published to date." One might surmise that the story in M/HOL 1994-FB is that long-lost story, but I don't suppose it necessarily has to be.  
<<<

True. It does appear to have been edited heavily or possibly re-written entirely. I'm fairly sure it's not the original artwork. The opening scene in the Coffee-a-Go-Go uses part of a pannel from an earlier issue (possibly Kirby art) of the cafe with Bernard the poet, back-up band, and go-go dancer. Forget which issue it's from off the top of my head. Have to check that when I'm back home on Fri. [edit: UX 7!] 

Since there haven't been any other Metoxo stories with Iceman & Beast since and dialogue in M/HOL 1994 (present day parts) suggest they have only had the one previous encounter with him (as shown in the flashback part)... this flashback then has to be THE Metoxo story that was originally sceduled for UX 49 but dropped which means it would have to go after UX 47 but before they move to California and work as stunt men BTS in UX 48/opening of UX 49.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 23 Dec 2006 03:12 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 26 Apr 2006 12:42 pm    
By Dhall

I'd rather have a placement based on plot points within the story, rather than calendar references (yes, even though Christmas could be considered a plot point here. The calendar references I refer to here, would be from other books.) 

I believe that the index ignores as many calendar type references as 'topical' as it accepts into it's calendar. To me that makes the calendar an unreliable guide. 

We just have to accept that in the MU sometimes Christmas comes twice 'a year,' that there's a Presidential election every two years, and that any number of seasons can happen within the same year. If a writer gets the calendar references correct within his own book, I'm amazed, let alone across the whole line. 

Dave

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Posted: 26 Apr 2006 02:16 pm    
By Enda80

Perhaps the Armenian Nativity is more widely observed.

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Thread 20

Posted: 20 Apr 2006 04:32 pm    Post subject: Doom [FF536&537 SPOILERS]
By Somebody

Just looked at the preview of FF537 there - and JMS appears to be completely ignoring the events of Authoritive Action, since the flashback shows a Doom, body and all, fully clothed in visually complete (though apparently damaged in some respect) skin-armour. 

If we don't get an explicit answer either way as to whether it was the real Doom in AA, given the stuff here which suggests otherwise, does it affect Doom's listing?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2006 06:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Nothing would change in Doom's listing, if that's what you mean. We would assume it's the real Doom, and there's an untold story out there somewhere, until we have an indication to the contrary. 


watching: cheetah girls

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Posted: 20 Apr 2006 10:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm a little lost ... I remember being Doom sent to hell at the end of FF #500, and I remember him returning, but what was his fate at the end of "Authoritive Action"? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Apr 2006 08:08 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I don't have the issue in front of me, but I believe his fate was left open. His body was supposedly trapped in a "finite Mobius dimension" but when the FF tried to save Reed, he began mind-jumping from Sue to Johnny to Ben when his physical body was killed. That's when Reed killed Ben, and said something to the effect of "I don't know what's happened to Victor's mind in killing the host body that wasn't actually his." 

Apparently, Victor's body was returned to Hell upon it's demise (possibly because of how Reed removed Doom from Hell to put him in that Mobius dimension?) and his mind returned to that body when it's host was killed. And evidently Reed figured that out at some point during his examination of Ben's dead body in subsequent issues.

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Posted: 22 Apr 2006 12:41 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm not sure I see the problem. The FF seemed appropriately surprised to see Doom in FF 536, so evidently he escaped behind the scenes somewhere, and I'd normally expect Straczynski to either explain it later in the storyline or leave it as an explicit mystery. What's the difficulty?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 22 Apr 2006 02:29 pm    
By Somebody

Two things - firstly, Doom's body was left in Reed's other-dimensional room that he pulled him out of hell to in AA. Secondly, the only part of the mystic armour he had left on his body in AA was the mask - the rest was gone.

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Posted: 22 Apr 2006 03:46 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

No, as Sean said, Doom's soul kinda just disappeared at the end of Authorative Action, (it wasn't stated anywhere that the soul was transfered back to the other-dimensional room). Sean said that his soul was transfered back to Hell, but I don't remember it clearly stated anywhere...I for one thought that his soul was left to wander the Earth, (a powerless ghost, of sorts). 

At any rate, whatever Doom's fate after AA, we are left to conclude somehow Doom made it back to Earth in a physical body, (and hopefully JMS will get around to explaining exactly HOW in the next couple of issues). 

...or they could just continue to ignore everything that happened in Waid's run, and just bring him back with no explanation, like they did with Galactus... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 22 Apr 2006 07:33 pm    
By Somebody

Mjolnir tore a hole in hell - JMS has mentioned that in interviews, and it seems to be hinted at in the preview. The problem with that is that his physical body, including mystic armour, shouldn't have been in Hell in the first place per AA. The armour was gone and his body was wrecked and in Reed's sealed-off pocket dimension.

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Posted: 22 Apr 2006 11:22 pm    
By jephyork
Director

When most denizens of the Marvel Universe die and go to hell, they show up in hell in "bodies", usually wearing "clothes", even though their physical forms are buried and rotting on Earth. 

Don't consider it to be Doom's literal physical body and his literal mystic armor -- it's just the form his soul took on once it wound up back in hell. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 07:48 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

So JMS said in interviews that Doom was back in Hell, eh? Well, since Waid didn't truly spell it out what happened to Doom at the end of Authorative Action, I suppose saying "He went back to Hell" is as good an explanation as any.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 27 Apr 2006 07:29 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

The topic of apparently ignoring "Authoritative Action" was just brought up on ComicBoards' FFMB and Tom Brevoort responded...

Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
CyberCoyote wrote: 
>>>
Okay, it basically looks like everything that happened at the end of AA is gonna be ignored, from the Mobius to possibly Jack Kirby and the Magical Mystery Eraser since they are claiming Doom was actually left in Hell so must have never gotten Ben killed. 
<<<

Well, no, not quite. Doom's essence inhabited Ben at the end of Authoritative Action, and he was in Ben when he was killed--at which point, just as Ben went to Heaven, he returned to Hell. 
<<<

There's been some follow-up about how Doom's body should still be in the Mobius, and how did the armor follow him around, and such. If Tom provides any more insights to the conversation, though, I'll copy them here.


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Thread 21

Posted: 29 Mar 2006 02:52 pm    Post subject: Civil War: Opening Salvo
By SKleefeld
Director

Thought I'd take a few moments to throw out my initial thoughts on the Civil War stuff... 

New Avengers: Illuminati covers several periods. Pages 1-10 clearly occur shortly after the Kree-Skrull War. I'm thinking just before A 98 and FF 124. I think this also works pretty easily with that big hole in X-Men continuity as well before GSXM 1. 

Page 11 is clear a reference to the Hulk/Thing fight in FF 533-535 and, since there is no specified time frame for the next several pages, I think we can assume that pages 12-22 occur around that same time. However, since, during the actual fight, Reed and Sue have their time filled with press conferences and such, AND it's not until the end of FF 535 that Ben puts the idea of shooting the Hulk into space into Reed's head, these need to be broken up at least a little bit. 

I'm not familiar with the Hulk's chronology and the Planet Hulk story so I'm not sure how pages 23-24 tie in with that. 

Now, FF 536 shows Reed thinking back to the meeting that occurs for the rest of the Illuminati Special (pp. 25-31). The dialogue suggests that Reed just got back from that meeting, and it's further noted in a TV broadcast that ASM 530 occurred "yesterday." 

So what we have so far (as far as recent stuff is concerned) looks something like... 

FF 534 
NEWAILL p. 11 
FF 535 
NEWAILL pp. 12-22 
... 
ASM 530 
ASM 531 -- likely placement based on the end of ASM 530 
NEWAILL pp. 25-31 
FF 536 

Just a few initial thoughts.

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Posted: 30 Mar 2006 07:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
ASM 530 
ASM 531 -- likely placement based on the end of ASM 530 
NEWAILL pp. 25-31 
FF 536  
<<<

Pages 25-31 of Illuminati occur early in the morning following ASM 529. ASM 530 picks up later that morning. In ASM 530, Peter tells Tony, "Hey boss...I thought you were going to get some sleep." Stark replies, "I had a last-minute meeting to attend." Peter says, "At midnight?" When Peter asks, "So what was the meeting about?," Tony replies, "A long-term planning session." An editor's note says the meeting was the one in Illuminati. Peter also notes that his new costume "isn't even twenty-four hours old yet." So ASM 529 (in which Peter gets the new costume) occurs one day, then Illuminati occurs at midnight that night (technically the next day), then later that morning (the day after ASM 529), we have ASM 530 starting. 

My comic shop ran out of FF 536 before I got there. But if the TV broadcast in ASM 530 occurred "yesterday," then the Illuminati meeting had to have occurred very early in the morning on the day prior to FF 536. 

More temporal inconsistencies??
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Mar 2006 11:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

At least we finally now have actual on-panel proof that SHIELD has been using a Nick Fury LMD to cover for his disappearance. 

Yay!  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Mar 2006 05:30 pm    
By Somebody

If anyone feels like trying to ask Bendis a question on it: http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=65005

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Posted: 30 Mar 2006 05:52 pm    
By Mikhail

About Black Bolt's appearance in the post-Kree/Skrull War meeting...wasn't the Great Refuge completely cut off from the rest of humanity by a negative barrier or something for an extended period of time? Did Bendis dodge this bullet or not?

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Posted: 30 Mar 2006 08:07 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, we we're promised by Joe Quesada over on Newsarama that the Illuminati special would fix, (or at least shed light) on the Nick Fury chronology problem. I don't think this special resolved much of anything in regards to Fury's chronology, (it's simply confirmed that the Fury seen in Hulk #88-91 was an LMD). 

Good thing we didn't put the Calender on hold until this issue came out...  

Also, anybody else notice that the characterization for Tony Stark in the Illuminati special was vastly different from the characterization for Stark in the latest issue of Amazing Spider-man? Perhaps Stark is lying to Peter about trying to rally Congress against the idea of hero registration? 

Speaking of mischaracterization, who would've thought that ol' Namor had a soft spot for the Hulk?!?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 05:14 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Pages 25-31 of Illuminati occur early in the morning following ASM 529. ASM 530 picks up later that morning. In ASM 530, Peter tells Tony, "Hey boss...I thought you were going to get some sleep." Stark replies, "I had a last-minute meeting to attend." Peter says, "At midnight?" When Peter asks, "So what was the meeting about?," Tony replies, "A long-term planning session." An editor's note says the meeting was the one in Illuminati.  
<<<

The problem is that in FF 536, Reed gets back from his apparent meeting in the early hours, turns on the TV, and sees news footage of Peter and Tony in Washington in ASM 530 recorded the previous day. Therefore FF 536 takes place hours after the bulk of ASM 530. 

The apparent solution here is that the NA:I meeting takes place overnight; Tony goes on to appear in ASM 530 in the morning; and for some reason Reed is delayed in returning home and doesn't get there until after midnight. 

Unless this is an intentional plot point, though, it's remarkably incoherent writing considering that both stories are written by J Michael Straczynski and he doesn't seem to have his own timeline straight at all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 09:25 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
we we're promised by Joe Quesada over on Newsarama that the Illuminati special would fix, (or at least shed light) on the Nick Fury chronology problem. I don't think this special resolved much of anything in regards to Fury's chronology, (it's simply confirmed that the Fury seen in Hulk #88-91 was an LMD). 
<<<

The way they phrased it was, "SHIELD has been using an LMD to cover for Nick's disappearance." That's a pretty inclusive phrasing -- I think it was intended to cover for all the post-SECWAR Fury appearances. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 09:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I agree; any post-SECRET WAR appearances by Fury in a SHIELD role can now be attributed to the Fury LMD.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 10:07 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Pages 25-31 of Illuminati occur early in the morning following ASM 529. ASM 530 picks up later that morning. In ASM 530, Peter tells Tony, "Hey boss...I thought you were going to get some sleep." Stark replies, "I had a last-minute meeting to attend." Peter says, "At midnight?" When Peter asks, "So what was the meeting about?," Tony replies, "A long-term planning session." An editor's note says the meeting was the one in Illuminati.  
<<<

The problem is that in FF 536, Reed gets back from his apparent meeting in the early hours, turns on the TV, and sees news footage of Peter and Tony in Washington in ASM 530 recorded the previous day. Therefore FF 536 takes place hours after the bulk of ASM 530. 

The apparent solution here is that the NA:I meeting takes place overnight; Tony goes on to appear in ASM 530 in the morning; and for some reason Reed is delayed in returning home and doesn't get there until after midnight. 
<<<

As far as trying to explain what Reed was doing between the Illuminati meeting and FF 536, that's not really relevant here. Our concern is just the order that these events occur. ASM 530 expressly states that it occurs after the Illuminati special, and FF 536 expressly states that it occurs after ASM 530. That gives us our order placement, and I don't know that we need to delve any deeper into it, unless we get additional stories later that (seemingly) contradict that order.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2006 10:41 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I agree; any post-SECRET WAR appearances by Fury in a SHIELD role can now be attributed to the Fury LMD. 
<<<

To use a Fury-related expression, "Wahoo!" Did we nail this one, or what? 
One major continuity mess is solved, but yet the minor inconsistencies continue. 


Quote: 
>>>
The problem is that in FF 536, Reed gets back from his apparent meeting in the early hours, turns on the TV, and sees news footage of Peter and Tony in Washington in ASM 530 recorded the previous day.  
<<<

BUT...Reed and Sue are watching Tony in Washington on LIVE TV in ASM 530! 

So, Reed attends the Illuminati meeting at midnight. 
He comes home and catches the live broadcast with Sue in ASM 530. 
Then the next day, he comes home from the Illuminati meeting AGAIN and sees the same TV footage from "yesterday?" ???? 

I think we need to ignore that "yesterday" reference in FF 536. But tell me, is Reed watching the TV broadcast with Sue in FF 536? 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, anybody else notice that the characterization for Tony Stark in the Illuminati special was vastly different from the characterization for Stark in the latest issue of Amazing Spider-man? Perhaps Stark is lying to Peter about trying to rally Congress against the idea of hero registration? 
<<< 


You noticed that, too? Well, Stark can be an underhanded kind of guy. Consider this dialogue from two comics released this very week --- 

Warren Ellis, in IRON MAN v4 #6: 
Iron Man tells Mallen, I made the first version of this suit to save myself and a friend from criminals with guns. I mustve killed fifty people, trying to free us. 

Brian Michael Bendis, in NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1: 
Contrasting himself with the Hulk, Iron Man tells Namor, I never killed anyone. 

So is he lying to Mallen or Namor? 


Quote: 
>>>
Speaking of mischaracterization, who would've thought that ol' Namor had a soft spot for the Hulk?!? 
<<<

I look at their relationship as a classic sibling relationship. When they're together they can't get along, but when the going gets tough, they go to bat for each other. 



Quote: 
>>>
About Black Bolt's appearance in the post-Kree/Skrull War meeting...wasn't the Great Refuge completely cut off from the rest of humanity by a negative barrier or something for an extended period of time? Did Bendis dodge this bullet or not? 
<<<

Nope, Bendis actually got this right. The negative barrier (to keep atmospheric pollutants out of Attilan) didn't appear until FF 129. 

Here's where that post-Kree/Skrull War FB in NA:I fits in character chronologies: 

Black Bolt -- between A 95 and FF 131-FB 
Black Panther -- between AT 7/2 and FF 119-FB 
Dr. Strange -- between FF:WGCM 3 (not in the MCP) and M/FEA 1/3 
Iron Man -- between A 97 and IM 41 
Mr. Fantastic -- between FF 118 and FF 119 
Professor X -- between A 88 and AA2 11-FB 
Sub-Mariner -- between SUB-M 46 and SUB-M 47 

Subby's costume in NA:I looks somewhat similar to the costume he adopted in SUB-M 67, but it's clearly not the same. This FB happens a good 21 months (Marvel Time) before SUB-M 67. 

Interestingly, Xavier brings up the subject of Krakoa at this first Illuminati meeting, fifteen months (Marvel Time) before GSX 1! Looks like he was aware of the threat for quite a while before he had the X-Men deal with it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 11:44 am    
By Mikhail

To Namor, I think Iron Man was specifically talking about having never gone out of control and killed anyone while he was drunk.

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 01:45 pm    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I agree; any post-SECRET WAR appearances by Fury in a SHIELD role can now be attributed to the Fury LMD. 
<<<

What about Cable/DP #24 (for those not paying attention, C/DP 
24 ends with Fury & Cap on the bridge of the SHIELD Helicarrier. #25 proceeds to open with Cap meeting a holographic "on the outs with SHIELD" Fury in a NYC skyscraper (holographic so Fury didn't have to physically go to NYC), since Nicieza found out that Fury wasn't in with SHIELD between writing the two issues. And no, between HoM and Cage & Spidey both referencing being Avengers beforehand, it can't be pushed back).

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 01:50 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

According to Fabian Nicieza, that's just a continuity error. They corrected it between issues to reflect Fury's status correctly.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 02:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Is there a chance that Cable meets the fake Fury in #24, and the real Fury in #25? Or does the Fury in #25 reference the meeting in #24 -- are they definitely the same person? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2006 05:59 pm    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
According to Fabian Nicieza, that's just a continuity error. They corrected it between issues to reflect Fury's status correctly. 
<<<

I know Paul - I referenced that in my post, and I think I brought that to this board's attention before #25 was out. I was asking "should we drop the #24 scene completely, inc. for Cap" since the #25 scene reads almost as a redo of the #24 scene "done right."

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Apr 2006 05:32 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The error is in depicting Fury as a member of SHIELD, rather than depicting him at all. Just disregard the references in issue #24 to him being a member of SHIELD, which aren't relevant to the plot.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 04 Apr 2006 12:47 pm    
By Frederic Krier

Quote: 
>>>
Here's where that post-Kree/Skrull War FB in NA:I fits in character chronologies: 

Black Bolt -- between A 95 and FF 131-FB 
Black Panther -- between AT 7/2 and FF 119-FB 
Dr. Strange -- between FF:WGCM 3 (not in the MCP) and M/FEA 1/3 
Iron Man -- between A 97 and IM 41 
Mr. Fantastic -- between FF 118 and FF 119 
Professor X -- between A 88 and AA2 11-FB 
Sub-Mariner -- between SUB-M 46 and SUB-M 47 

Subby's costume in NA:I looks somewhat similar to the costume he adopted in SUB-M 67, but it's clearly not the same. This FB happens a good 21 months (Marvel Time) before SUB-M 67. 
<<< 


Two remarks on these placements: Sub-Mariner doesn't really fit between SUB-M 46 and SUB-M 47 either, as he was amnesiac at the time. And it's certainly weird that he's wearing a costume similar to the one Reed Richards will create for him months/years later... 
And Dr. Strange was Stephen Sanders prior to M/FEA 1/3 and had given up all his mystical powers, so it doesn't work to have him around shortly after the Kree/Skrull War... (don't know about FF.WGCM 3 - is he Dr. Strange or Stephen Sanders in that one?).

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2006 09:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
And Dr. Strange was Stephen Sanders prior to M/FEA 1/3 and had given up all his mystical powers, so it doesn't work to have him around shortly after the Kree/Skrull War... (don't know about FF.WGCM 3 - is he Dr. Strange or Stephen Sanders in that one?). 
<<<

Just cracked open by copy of Essential Dr. Strange vol. 2 and lo and behold, you're right, Frederic. For some reason I have M/FEA 1/3 occurring just a few days before M/FEA 1 (I don't have that whole issue), but it looks like M/FEA 1/3 needs to occur a while before M/FEA 1...before the post-Kree/Skrull War FB in NA:I. 

As far as FF:WGCM 3 goes, the Strange we see is the mystical masked version that appears to have been put to rest in H2 126 (except for Baron Mordo assuming that identity as revealed in M/FEA 1/3). 

I wonder if the sequence for Strange should be as follows: 
FF:WGCM 3 
SUB-M 22 
H2 126 
M/FEA 1/3 
WS 5 
NA:I 1-FB 
M/FEA 1 
Of course this reopens the can of worms that are FF:WGCM and WS, two continuity implant series that don't quite fit in the established sequence of events that tangle like spaghetti between titles of the period, among them ASM, FF, and SS. Don't want to go down that road at the moment... 


Quote: 
>>>
Sub-Mariner doesn't really fit between SUB-M 46 and SUB-M 47 either, as he was amnesiac at the time. And it's certainly weird that he's wearing a costume similar to the one Reed Richards will create for him months/years later...  
<<<

I don't think we can avoid placing Subby in somewhat similar garb in NA:I 1-FB long before he dons the costume Reed made for him in SUB-M 67. Who knows? Maybe Reed patterned the new costume after the NA:I attire? 

You do make a good point about the amnesiac Namor, though. Times like these I wish they had an Essential Sub-Mariner! Tell me, during what period of SUB-M is Subby an amnesiac?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Apr 2006 11:42 pm    
By Frederic Krier

I don't have these issues in front of me, but from memory (with a little help from http://www.geocities.com/namorfan/index.html) Namor's father dies in 46, Namor then goes amnesiac and slowly regains his memory during the Dr. Doom vs. AIM storyline (47-49). 

But another thing: the flashback in NA:I has to happen after M/FEA 1; because Strange tells Namor on page 8 (Essential Defenders reprint): "We met but briefly before" and there's a footnote that points us to Sub-Mariner 22, making this only their second meeting. 

Anyway, looking at the current entry for Sub-Mariner, M/FEA1 already comes in earlier as well: 
SUB-M 43 
M/FEA 1 
SUB-M 44 
SUB-M 45 
SUB-M 46 
SUB-M 47 
SUB-M 48 
SUB-M 49 
SUB-M 50 

NA:I could fit in Namor's chronology either between M/FEA 1 (cover-date Dec 71) and SUB-M 44 (Dec 71) or between SUB-M 49 (May 72) and 50 (June 72). The first one would place it in the middle of the search for his father, and it seems unlikely that he would interrupt that for a trip to Wakanda, but not entirely impossible. The search for his father is referenced as well on page 8 of M/FEA1 - Namor only agrees reluctantly to interrupt it to help Strange save the world. 

A 97 is cover-dated Mar 72. 

For Dr. Strange, this would obviously place NA:I after M/FEA 1 as well. His next appearance according to the MCP is M/FEA 2 (Mar 72), which comes later in Namor's chronology anyway than both those possibilities (only after SUB-M 59!). So that really leaves a lot of space for Strange, possibily vacationing in Wakanda, as he intends to do in NA:I. 

I can check if there's a break between SUB-M 49 and 50 next week when I'm at my parent's place in Luxembourg. 

Namor's costume: artistic license, like the yellow costume DD wore in the "Golden Age" arc (also drawn by Maleev)?

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Posted: 05 Apr 2006 05:46 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I can check if there's a break between SUB-M 49 and 50 next week when I'm at my parent's place in Luxembourg.  
<<<

Sounds good, unless anyone else out there wants to check in the meantime. I wonder if there's a break in SUB-M 50 in which NA:I 1 can occur. The beginning of SUB-M 50 may pick up from SUB-M 49, but I'm not sure.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Apr 2006 11:29 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Bendis answered some questions about the Illuminati special over at Newsarama. Here are some relevant ones that address chronology concerns that we've had, (mind you, these answers don't really help, but I figured I'd note them): 

Quote: 
>>>
Q: What's up with the Black Panther, T'Challa? I've been reading his monthly only sporadically, but having read the first six issues I was under the impression that he was just introduced and started interacting with the Marvel Universe during the Bush Administration (i.e. when "Dondi Reese" was in power). And yet, here he was meeting with the Illuminati way back when. 

BB: Black Panther has been around since the early issues of the FF and was an Avenger during the amazing Roy Thomas years. 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Q: The timeframe of the first meeting in Wakanda confuses me. It is supposed to be the within a week of the end of the Kree-Skrull War. That was well before the Sub-Mariner first donned the special costume (devised by Reed Richards!) he wore throughout this issue. Also at that time, Dr. Strange was had renounced magic and retired (about a year our time before the first Defenders story) and the Black Panther was calling himself the "Black Leopard" (okay, the last one didn't last long). Not to mention that Black Bolt must have been taking something to counteract the effects of worldwide pollution that was confining the Inhumans to Attilan at the time... 

BB: See, time is an iffy thing in comics. How much actual time has gone by in the Marvel Universe versus real time? Its one of those things we have to just deal with. And books like this special make it easy to consolidate time by marking events like we did. I know this annoys some people but it just has to happen as time goes on. 
<<< 


Quote: 
>>>
Q: Page 1) When the members of this group 1st meet, why are they in costumes that they've either abandoned or won't create for years to come? 

BB: Years in what context, Marvel time? 
<<<


Quote: 
>>>
Q: Page 5) Hawkeye is NOT a "convicted" criminal. Why would Namor say that - or why wouldn't Tony correct him? Namor may not, but Tony trusts his teammates yet he won't defend them. Seems odd. 

BB: See your Marvel Handbook. 


Q: 6) Reed implies that many people died during Avengers #89-97. When and where did this happen? 

BB: A big dangerous cosmic war just happened right in their own backyard. We can assume some people got hurt. 


Q: Page 31) I'm told you're familiar with the character's you write, yet you have Reed doing an absolutely complete reversal from his stance on Super Hero Registration Acts. Fantastic Four #336 clearly shows that Reed is against them. Why the drastic change in Reed's beliefs? 

BB: Tony made a convincing argument. I know its hard to imagine in the world of comics fiction, but sometimes people change their minds. 
<<<

 


And the one that really irked me, I saved for last: 

Quote: 
>>>
Q: In She-Hulk #4 just 2 months ago, it was revealed that the Hulk has NEVER killed a civilian. So why are Tony Stark and S.H.I.E.L.D. saying that the Hulk has killed and continues to kill civilians? I don't get it. Is the Hulk a murderer or not? 

BB: Remember in the Hulk movie when the Hulk threw a tank with a guy inside it across the desert and it crashes and the guy gets out of the tank unscathed? Didnt that seem like complete and utter ________ to you? It did to me. Im not saying the Hulk is a squeezing a guys head until his eyeballs pop out murderer but when Hulk smashes ____ gets ____ed up and people get hurt. You cant knock down a building and everyone inside brushes off and goes to lunch. It's ridiculous. 
<<<

So who do we believe: Slott or Bendis? I, personally, think the answer is somewhere in between, (Hulk has killed a few times, but it's usually an accident or mind control...not outright murder)... 

Also, it would appear that Blackbolt disagreed with Iron Man, (apparently siding with Dr. Strange) there at the end. Apparently everyone was confused about that scene, so Bendis has to spell it out for us.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 10 Apr 2006 02:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Also, it would appear that Blackbolt disagreed with Iron Man, (apparently siding with Dr. Strange) there at the end. Apparently everyone was confused about that scene, so Bendis has to spell it out for us. 
<<<

I'm glad he did. There was just no way to interpret Black Bolt's response the way it was presented. SOOO glad we need to rely on follow-up explanations from creators. Our $2.99 isn't enough to pay for clarity. 


I should add that Bendis' so-called response to the timing of the Illuminati meeting after the Kree-Skrull War is a total cop-out. Bendis spouts off about absolute time passage in the MU, yet the question has nothing to do with absolute time -- it's all about relative time -- the proper sequence of events in the MU -- what we here call a chronology. Just confirms for me my opinion of Bendis. Bah.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Apr 2006 02:17 am
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I don't think we can avoid placing Subby in somewhat similar garb in NA:I 1-FB long before he dons the costume Reed made for him in SUB-M 67. Who knows? Maybe Reed patterned the new costume after the NA:I attire?  
<<<

Agreed. I mean, Namor doesn't just own the one green speedo, right? He has to have other clothes... He's the Prince of Atlantis! Just because we didn't see him wear much of anything else in the old days doesn't mean he didn't have anything else. That black get-up may have been Atlantean formal-wear, and Reed designed it to resemble that, because it was Namor's favorite. 


Also at Newsarama, here's a snippet of an interview with Millar regarding Civil War: 

Quote:
>>> 
NRAMA: How's your working relationship with Civil War editor Tom Brevoort? 
MM: Tom's been amazing. I've never worked with an editor who's put as much into this project as Tom has. 

As I mentioned before, each script gone through five, six or even seven drafts and sometimes completely revised from top to bottom if continuity conflicts with a story from the past. Tom has patiently read every draft, offered sage advice and been there to hold my hand through - let's face it - a lot of continuity. But you can't moan about continuity when you've agreed to write an inter-company crossover. You either respect it or you bugger off and do your creator-owned book. 
It's like superhero actors moaning about all the time they spend in make-up. You know the deal before you start and, to be honest, the continuity can really work for you if you learn how to ride it. It's a lot of work, but Tom's been great and hit me with a million interesting suggestions. I'd never have been able to do this without him, to be honest. I'd have messed up royally on my own. 
<<<

This gives me hope...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Apr 2006 02:22 am    
By Frederic Krier

OK here's an overview of the events in Sub-Mariner's title around the time of the Kree-Skrull war: 
SUB-M 38 Namor resigns from the throne of Atlantis 
SUB-M 39, DD77, SUB-M 40-43, M/FEA 1, SUB-M 44-46 have Namor looking for his father. The Human Torch guest-stars in the last three issues (none of the other FF appear). The search takes several days, probably weeks. The last three issues take place over a couple of days (even if Leonard McKenzie's beard has grown a lot between 44 and 46). 
SUB-M 47: It's "three days" after the finale of SUB-M 46. We find Namor on a train to Chicago. The wounds inflicted by Tiger Shark and the shock of losing his father have left Namor amnesiac. Meeting Dr. Doom shakes him out of his amnesia and he slowly regains all of his memories. The storyline with Doom continues through the next two issues, without any significant interruption. It ends with Namor and Cindy Jones being left by Doom in New Orleans. 
SUB-M 50: This issue starts off with Namor, amnesiac again (!!). The "violent drama" ft. Dr. Doom has "just been concluded" and there's a FB to moments before and we find Cindy Jones running off and telling Namor to go find his peace in the sea to which Namor replies "The sea? But I do not understand! Am I not a man, just as the others?". Of course Namor knew he could breathe underwater in SUB-M 48... A jump into the New Orleans harbor makes him regain his senses, as well as his memories. He then rescues a girl from drowning, only to realize that she wanted to commit suicide. Disgusted by the surface world, Namor leaves to find solace. He swims at "lightning speed" to "cooler, colder, icier climes" which he prefers to the "bland, tepid waters of the balmy Gulf Stream" and arrives in the Ross Sea, apparently drown by a "magnetic force".There he finds talking crabs, the dead body of Namora, his cousin Byrrah as well as Namorita, the daughter of Namora. This storyline, which also features the Badoon and the apparent death of Llyra, concludes in SUB_M 51, without any break. 
SUB-M 52: This issue starts off an unspecified time after the end of SUB-M 51. Namor and Namorita have build themselves a house, and then leave to New York to visit Betty Dean. Namor and Nita seem quite familiar with each other by now, so probably quite some time passed by between 51 and 52. 
Therefore I would suggest placing NA:I between SUB-M 51 and 52. Namor could have made a trip to Wakanda during that time, even if that meant leaving Nita alone in the Ross Sea. Nita did not come with him to Wakanda as she visits the surface world for the first time in SUB-M 52. 
The other possibility would be to place it between SUB-M 50 page 5, panel 3 (Namor leaves New Orleans) and panel 4 (Namor arrives in Antarctica), but I think it fits better between issues 51 and 52. 
How T'Challa managed to reach him, is anyone's guess though. 

This fits in quite well with Fantastic Four continuity of the time too. The Human Torch guest appearance in SUB-M 44-46 currently sits between FF 116 - M/TU 2 and FF 117. If Mr. Fantastic's appearance in NA:I takes place between FF 118 and 119, as you suggest, this also means that NA:I has to take place after the search for Leonard McKenzie and the subsequent amnesia storyline. That again stresses that NA:I takes place after M/FEA 1 and therefore after Dr. Strange's return. 

The possibility of Reed modelling the costume after Namor's look in Wakanda seems slim too after looking at SUB-M 67 and SUB-M 68. When he gets the suits in #67, it misses the trident (shown in NA:I), which is added to the costume in the next issue by Neptune. Nita wonder's in #68 "why he's wearing that far-out costume".

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Apr 2006 05:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If Namor's costume is the only major problem with his appearance then I'm perfectly content to ignore it as artistic licence. Other than publication order, though, is there any particularly pressing reason why these stories have to follow the Kree-Skrull War?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Apr 2006 07:41 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Other than publication order, though, is there any particularly pressing reason why these stories have to follow the Kree-Skrull War? 
<<<


There are probably a lot of reasons, but I'll just bring up one. According to the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #2, SUB-M 59 occurs between A 104 and 105. That places the end of the Kree-Skrull War (A 97) way before SUB-M 67. 

I really don't see a problem with Subby's costume in NA:I 1-FB. Although it bears a resemblance, it's clearly NOT the costume Reed designed for him.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Apr 2006 04:29 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
There are probably a lot of reasons, but I'll just bring up one. According to the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2 #2, SUB-M 59 occurs between A 104 and 105. That places the end of the Kree-Skrull War (A 97) way before SUB-M 67. 
<<<

And in light of the new evidence, perhaps this should be reassessed. It's not as if Index-guy had this issue in hand.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Apr 2006 03:44 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, Index placements can clearly be reassessed in the light of later evidence. In many cases Olshevsky has had to choose one from many possibilities and it's entirely possible for later stories to change what's possible.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Apr 2006 07:16 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

No question about that. I just think we'd need a good reason to rearrange chronologies, and to me, NA:I 1 doesn't gives us one.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Apr 2006 01:28 pm    
By Somebody

Back to Fury... 

Iron Man #7 has a plot-critical scene with Fury on the Helicarrier talking to Tony. Given that, per the Illumanati special, Tony's meant to know about the LMDs (plus his Extremis-powers mean he'd know even if he didn't know, y'know ), and Dum Dum's also treating it as Fury, umm....

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2006 01:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't know how IM4 #7-12 are meant to tie into Civil War -- can we place the series afterwards for now, and hope that the real Nick Fury comes back soon? 

Alternately, can we assume that Tony, not sure if Dum Dum knows about the LMD or not, is faking? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2006 02:07 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I don't know how IM4 #7-12 are meant to tie into Civil War -- can we place the series afterwards for now, and hope that the real Nick Fury comes back soon? 
<<<

Not likely - 13-14 are meant to be a Civil War epilogue, and Cap & IM are both members of the Avengers in the issue. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Alternately, can we assume that Tony, not sure if Dum Dum knows about the LMD or not, is faking? 
<<<

He keeps on after DDD leaves the room, and talks about him as Fury in internal-narration afterward.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2006 02:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Uggggh. 

Okay, how about placing this IM4 arc before "Illuminati", and claiming that Tony didn't know about the Fury LMD until shortly before "Illuminati"? 

We can overlook the notion that his Extremis-powers should have alerted him to the fact that Fury wasn't real ... this would hardly be the first awkward placement for the Fury LMD. I suspect there'll be many more, all of which we'll HAVE to credit to the Fury LMD even if all the characters in the room are acting like he's real, until he finally resurfaces. 

Sigh. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Apr 2006 08:00 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Back to Fury... 

Iron Man #7 has a plot-critical scene with Fury on the Helicarrier talking to Tony. Given that, per the Illumanati special, Tony's meant to know about the LMDs (plus his Extremis-powers mean he'd know even if he didn't know, y'know ), and Dum Dum's also treating it as Fury, umm.... 
<<<

Do we have to place Iron Man after Secret War? 



Edited because I stupidly typed Civil War instead of Secret War. Stupid crossovers.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2006 10:03 pm    
By jephyork
Director

If he and Cap are Avengers members, yes. Secret War occured before the formation of the New Avengers. 

And we can't place AM4 #7-12 before the dissolution of the OLD Avengers, either, because Iron Man's wearing an older, pre-Extremis armor in A:FINALE. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2006 09:51 am    
By Somebody

And Cage and the other NA members are there too. I just mentioned Cap because we've been told that they won't both be Av members post-CW.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2006 10:40 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hmm, I didn't know that. Neat. 

Was Wolverine there? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2006 01:37 pm    
By JD

No. Just Iron Man, Cap, Luke Cage and Spider-Woman. And we were spared any mention of Spider-Man as Stark's aide or of his new costume.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Apr 2006 01:39 am    
By Col_Fury

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Okay, how about placing this IM4 arc before "Illuminati", and claiming that Tony didn't know about the Fury LMD until shortly before "Illuminati"? 
<<<

I like it!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 26 Apr 2006 11:06 pm    
By Col_Fury

So Tony gives Spider-Man a new costume in ASM 529, and that night Tony informs Peter that they're going to Washington. 

In ASM 530, they arrive in Washington and Peter mentions that his new costume isn't even 24 hours old yet. 

ASM 531 continues directly from the end of ASM 530, and ends with Peter falling asleep watching the news, which reports the accident that will be shown in Civil War 1,(of course, we've already seen the accident as a preview in various places) and the last page promises that ASM 532 will be continued from Civil War. 

Given that there are no story breaks in these issues, it would seem that ASM 529-531 occurs immediately before the Civil War starts, but we've already seen the Spider-Armor in other books, such as Friendly Neighborhood, Sensational, New Avengers Annual, etc, and even that Spider-Man/Arana one-shot. 

So here's the problem: when do these stories take place? If ASM 529-531 leads directly into Civil War, how can Spider-Man be wearing the Spider-Armor elsewhere? I see two options: 

1. 
Insert a gap between ASM 529 & 530. This would require us to ignore plot specific temporal references(24 hours), and reduce the immediacy of Tony and Peter going to Washington. 

2. 
Insert a gap between pgs 21 & 22 of ASM 531. Peter and Mary Jane are talking about how stressful Peter's day was, and the implication is they're talking about his trip to Washington. That's not made explicit however, and they could be talking about any stressful day Peter had. This option leaves temporal references intact, plot elements intact, and opens up appearances for the Spider-Armor in other books to occur before Civil War. 

I like option 2.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 27 Apr 2006 06:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I like option 2. 
<<<

As do I.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Apr 2006 07:32 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Or there might be a lengthy gap DURING Civil War #1. Depends how long it takes everyone to react to the disaster. The story might well have gaps of days or weeks, in which case there's not necessarily a problem. 

Failing that, though, it makes sense to splice a gap into ASM 531 as suggested.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 22

Posted: 27 Apr 2006 03:40 am    Post subject: It, Heap now canon
By Enda80

The recent Handbook states that the Heap and It (Sturgeon character) existed on Earth-616. Has the Heap been referenced other than in magazines that Rick Jones had (and the readers saw in the Kree-Skrull War)? This sets an odd precedent if so. Normally, such references are taken as metafictional-i.e. these characters are fictional on Earth-616 just as they are on our fallow world. Does anyone known of any other Heap references? He might be bts now. 

That reminds me; I remember reading in a relatively early issue of X-Men I that some people went to a film about some man who was later revealed (implicitly) as the father of a Shang-Chi character. For that matter, Sherlock Holmes has been stated as fictional by Spidey in ASM Annual#14 and Spider-Man#26 (with Captain Britain), but where does that leave Clive Reston? 

Anyone ever spotted any references to Godzilla in an issue published before 1977? 

Of course, references to Star Trek popped here and there, and the X-Men met the crew years later.

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Posted: 27 Apr 2006 07:22 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I think we've had this discussion before, Enda80, but you're assuming a position that any character that was assumed fictional in the Marvel Universe turns out to be a real individual (in the MU) then all references to that character must be true. That is not necessarily the case. 

Real World Example #1 -- There was a movie entitled Blackbeard, the Pirate that came out in 1952 starring Robert Newton in the title role. The story was a total fabrication and had almost zero basis in fact. We see the character of Blackbeard also in Fantastic Four #5, again with almost zero basis in fact. These types of generic pirate images are how many people think of Blackbeard, but they're both examples of complete and utter fiction. HOWEVER, there really was a person called Blackbeard who died in the early 1700s. 

My point here is that writers can ascribe certain stories and qualities to a person that are fiction, despite the person being very real. 

Marvel Universe Example #1 -- In the MU, the Fantastic Four are a very real group of superheroes. They're generally looked up to and admired, and their adventures are often chronicled in newspapers and TV reports. They're also chronicled, somewhat more liberally, in comic books. Further, the FF were -- in the Marvel Universe -- the subject of a movie in FF@ 12. The movie featured an Invisible Girl in swinsuit-style uniform, and a fifteen-foot-tall Thing. Clearly, a lot of liberties had been taken, but the characters were still modelled after real people. Again, this shows that real people can ALSO be fictional within the Marvel Universe. 

The bottom line here is that any references to a character who is fictional within the Marvel Universe, whether that's Sherlock Holmes or Captain Kirk, has NO bearing on whether or not is also real in the Marvel Universe. And, from the other side, just because a character in the Marvel Universe is shown to be a real individual does NOT mean that s/he can't be referenced in a fictional sense.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2006 07:48 am    
By Enda80

Well, I guess Spider-Man could have been mistaken in his view that Sherlock Holmes was a fictional character (for Earth-616) since Spider-Man thought Fu Manchu, the Frankenstein's Monster, and the vampire Dracula were all fictional at some point. 

Has the Earth-616 Sax Rohmer been mentioned at some point?

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 27 Apr 2006 06:49 pm    Post subject: Flying Dutchman
By Enda80

Two of his Atlas era appearances are now canon per his entry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Apr 2006 09:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

Enda, I initially debated merging your "It and Heap are canon" thread and your "Flying Dutchman is canon" thread, just to keep the number of individual threads down -- but on reflection, the "It and Heap" thread is more about metafictional vs canon characters. 

However, you're pretty well-known for starting new threads every time you find a newly-canon Timely/Atlas character -- so, I'd like to make a request of you. 

From now on, is it possible for you to keep all your "obscure character X is canon" posts in the same thread? Most of your posts don't garner too much response, and keeping them all together would provide easier reference for the rest of us. If one of them merits a particularly contentious discussion, we can then spin it out into its own thread. 

(Personally, I'm of the opinion that most if not all of the Timely/Atlas stuff is canon, unless proven otherwise, so to me all of these posts of yours merely read as confirmation of what I already assumed...) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 29 Apr 2006 01:29 am    Post subject: Angel's childhood
By metaldragon

You seem to be missing a bit of flashback material in here: 

UX 54/2 
X 29-FB 
M/FAN 50-FB 
XF 47-FB 
L:SS 
UX 54/2 

The flashback sequence in XF 47 is quite extensive. On page 6 panels 2-3 he is shown giving his primary school teacher an apple and his classmates are jealous and mock him by sticking a wire halo on his head. Not sure his exact age but looks very young. 

Page 6 panels 4-6 show him a little older but still pre-teen at his birthday party where he's sitting in his room watching the birds and his father orders him back down. 

Page 6 panel 7 shows him being dropped off at "Fairburn Boys School". 

Page 6 panel 8 shows him reading a paper he wrote for class called "The History of Flight". 

Page 6 panel 9 is at a dance. The banner in the background is partially obscured but says: 
"Mount St. (covered) 
Annual M(covered) 
Welcome" 
Possibly from around the same time as M/FAN 50-FB this could be at the "girls prep school across the lake" where he met Cressida Desford (before his wings sprouted). He's shown dancing with a blond girl who comments "...you're so light on your feet, I'd almost swear you had hollow bones!" 

Page 8 panel 2 shows him examining his back where small wings have sprouted. He looks shocked and alarmed. 

Page 8 panel 3 shows him beating up a bully that was picking on Cameron Hodge and panel 4 shows him being given a private room. 

Page 8 panels 5-6 shows him saving his classmates from a fire, disguised with a long blond wig and nightshirt. Cameron Hodge is shown as a witness to this. 

I don't have a copy of UX 54/2 (or X 29, or L:SS) so I'm not sure what is duplicated and what is new in these flashbacks but I know panels from UX 54/2 should be inserted in a couple of places between these panels/issues.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 25

Posted: 29 Apr 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Harry's Hideaway
By jephyork
Director

I was just reading the Xavier Institute Alumni Yearbook (a faux school yearbook "put together by the Beast"), and in it the Beast mentions the last name of Harry (owner of Harry's Hideaway): Morrel. 

I don't know if that's ever been revealed before ... and, to be honest, off the top of my head I'm not sure whether Harry himself has ever appeared on-panel! But if he has, then -- now that we know his full name -- we can give the long-suffering barkeep an MCP listing...  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2006 06:59 am    
By Ant-Man

New Mutants #23, pages 3-4 (playing chess with Colossus) 

He may have other appearances, but that's the only one that I have noted. They also gave his surname in that appearance.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2006 09:52 am    
By wolframbane

Harry also appears in CX 4/2, when Logan and Nightcrawler go to the hangout w/o their image inducers on. Harry comments that Kurt has a very handsome tail. This takes place shortly after the X-Men battle Keirokk in UX 96, according to the X-Mn Index #4.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2006 11:40 pm    
By Ocean Doot

And the narration to the story in CX 4 *also* explicitly mentions Harry's last name. So -- never been any mystery there.

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Thread 26

Posted: 08 Aug 2004 12:28 pm    Post subject: Ultimate Marvel Chronology
By DIrishB

199997996 B.C. 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #21, "Crossover, Part 1" (pg. 3-5) 

149997996 B.C. 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #21, "Crossover, Part 1" (pg. 1-3) 

1904 
Ultimate Nightmare #1 (pg. 1-5) 

1927 
Ultimate Nightmare #1 (pg. 6) 

1944 
The Ultimates #10, "Devils In Disguise" (pg. 1-4) 

1945 
The Ultimates #10, "Devils In Disguise" (pg. 5-6) 
The Ultimates #1, "Super-Human" (pg. 1-23) 

1969 
Ultimate Iron Man #1 (pg. 1-10) 

1970 
Ultimate Iron Man #1 (pg. 11-23) 
Ultimate Iron Man #2 (pg. 1-16) 

1975 
Ultimate Iron Man #2 (pg. 17-23) 
Ultimate Iron Man #3 (pg. 1-7) 

1977 
Supreme Power #1, Contact (pg. 1-9) 

1978 
Supreme Power #1, Contact (pg. 9-14) 

1980 
Supreme Power #1, Contact (pg. 15) 

1981 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #1, "The Fantastic, Part 1" (pg. 1-2) 

1984 
Ultimate Iron Man #3 (pg. 8-23) 
Ultimate Iron Man #4 

1985 
Supreme Power #1, Contact (pg. 15) 

1987 
Ultimate Iron Man #5 
Ultimate Iron Man 2 #1** 
Ultimate Iron Man 2 #2** 
Ultimate Iron Man 2 #3** 
Ultimate Iron Man 2 #4** 
Ultimate Iron Man 2 #5** 

1989 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #24, "Tomb of Namor, Part 1" (pg. 1-3) 
Supreme Power #1, Contact (pg. 15) 

1990 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #7, "Doom, Part 1" (pg. 7-10, 18) 
Supreme Power #1, Contact (pg. 16-22) 

1991 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #1, "The Fantastic, Part 1" (pg. 3-25) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #13, "N-Zone, Part 1" (pg. 1-2) 
Ultimate X-Men #11, "Sins of the Past" (pg. 1-9) 
Supreme Power #2, Five Degrees of Contamination (pg. 1-16) 
Doctor Spectrum #1, Full Spectrum, Part 1 
Supreme Power #2, Five Degrees of Contamination (pg. 17-22) 
Supreme Power #3, Coming Out (pg. 1-5) 
Doctor Spectrum #2, Full Spectrum, Part 2 

1992 
Doctor Spectrum #3, Full Spectrum, Part 3 
Doctor Spectrum #4, Full Spectrum, Part 4 (pg. 1-3) 

1993 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #5, "Spider-Man and Iron Man, Part 2" (pg. 1-2, 5, 8, 12-13, 15-18) 

1994 
Supreme Power #3, Coming Out (pg. 6-9) 

1995 
Ultimate X-Men #26, "Return of the King, Prelude" (pg. 1-4) 
Supreme Power #3, Coming Out (pg. 9-23) 

1996 
Supreme Power #4, Assumed Names 
Doctor Spectrum #4, Full Spectrum, Part 4 (pg. 4-21) 
Doctor Spectrum #5, Full Spectrum, Part 5 
Doctor Spectrum #6, Full Spectrum, Part 6 (pg. 1-18) 
Supreme Power #5, Crank Up the Volume (pg. 1-13) 
Doctor Spectrum #6, Full Spectrum, Part 6 (pg. 19-23) 
Supreme Power #5, Crank Up the Volume (pg. 14-22) 
Supreme Power - Nighthawk #1, Punchline 
Supreme Power - Nighthawk #2, Put on a Happy Face 
Supreme Power - Nighthawk #3, The Greatest Show on Earth 
Supreme Power - Nighthawk #4, The Jokes Over 
Supreme Power - Nighthawk #5, The Best Medicine 
Supreme Power - Nighthawk #6, The Last Laugh 
Supreme Power #6, Questions of Perspective 
Ultimate X-Men #26, "Return of the King, Prelude" (pg. 5-8) 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra #1 (pg. 1-13) 

1997 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra #1 (pg. 14-23) 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra #2 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra #3 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra #4 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #2, "The Fantastic, Part 2" (pg. 1-14) 
Ultimate X-Men #26, "Return of the King, Prelude" (pg. 9-10) 
Ultimate Elektra #1, "Devil's Due, Part 1" 
Ultimate Elektra #2, "Devil's Due, Part 2" 
Ultimate Elektra #3, "Devil's Due, Part 3" 
Ultimate Elektra #4, "Devil's Due, Part 4" 
Ultimate Elektra #5, "Devil's Due, Part 5" 

1998 
Ultimate X-Men #26, "Return of the King, Prelude" (pg. 11-12) 

1999 
Ultimate X-Men #26, "Return of the King, Prelude" (pg. 13-16) 

2000 
Ultimate X-Men #26, "Return of the King, Prelude" (pg. 17-20) 

2001 
Ultimate X-Men #59, "Shock and Awe, Part 1" (pg. 1-6) 

2002 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #12, "Spider-Man and Doctor Strange, Part 1" (pg. 1-2) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #2, "The Fantastic, Part 2" (pg. 15-18) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #27, "President Thor, Part 1" (pg. 1-3, 18, 4, 19) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #29, "President Thor, Conclusion" (pg. 16-19) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #2, "The Fantastic, Part 2" (pg. 19-22) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #27, "President Thor, Part 1" (pg. 20) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #29, "President Thor, Conclusion" (pg. 14) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #28, "President Thor, Part 2" (pg. 1-2) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #3, "The Fantastic, Part 3" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #4, "The Fantastic, Part 4" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #5, "The Fantastic, Part 5" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #6, "The Fantastic, Part 6" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #7, "Doom, Part 1" (pg. 1-6, 11-17, 19-22) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #8, "Doom, Part 2" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #9, "Doom, Part 3" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #10, "Doom, Part 4" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #11, "Doom, Part 5" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #12, "Doom, Part 6" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #14, "Spider-Man and Black Widow" (pg. 1-2) 
The Ultimates #1, "Super-Human" (pg. 24-26) 

2003 
Ultimate Spider-Man #1, "Powerless" (pg. 1-24) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #72, "Hobgoblin, Part 1" (pg. 1-7) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #1, "Powerless" (pg. 25-48) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #2, "Growing Pains" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #3, "Wannabe" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #4, "With Great Power" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #5, "Life Lessons" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #6, "Big Time Super Hero" (pg. 1-5, 13-15, 6-12, 16-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #7, "Secret Identity" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #8, "Working Stiff" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #1, "Spider-Man and Wolverine" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #2, "Spider-Man and the Hulk, Part 1" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #3, "Spider-Man and the Hulk, Part 2" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #9, "Meet the Enforcers" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #10, "The Worst Thing" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #11, "Discovery" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #12, "Battle Royal" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #13, "Confessions" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #4, "Spider-Man and Iron Man, Part 1" (pg. 1-11) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #14, "Spider-Man and Black Widow" (pg. 3) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #4, "Spider-Man and Iron Man, Part 1" (pg. 12-23) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #5, "Spider-Man and Iron Man, Part 2" (pg. 3-4, 6-7, 9-11, 14, 16-21) 
Ultimate X-Men #1, "The Tomorrow People" 
Ultimate X-Men #2, "The Enemy Within" 
Ultimate X-Men #3, "Warzone" 
Ultimate X-Men #4, "Betrayal" 
Ultimate X-Men #5, "Killing Fields" 
Ultimate X-Men #6, "Invasion" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #6, "Spider-Man and The Punisher, Part 1" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #7, "Spider-Man and The Punisher and Daredevil, Part 2" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #8, "Spider-Man and The Punisher and Daredevil, Part 3" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #1/2 
Ultimate X-Men #1/2, "Burial Service" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #10, "Spider-Man and Man-Thing" 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special #1 (pg. 1-28) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #14, "Doctor Octopus" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #15, "Confrontations" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #16, "Kraven the Hunter" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #17, "Taking Advantage" (pg. 1-4) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #11, "Spider-Man and the X-Men" 
Ultimate X-Men #7, "Return to Weapon X" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #12, "Spider-Man and Doctor Strange, Part 1" (pg. 3-22) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #13, "Spider-Man and Doctor Strange, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #8, "First Strike" 
Ultimate X-Men #9, "No Safe Haven" 
Ultimate X-Men #10, "In The Heart of Darkness" 
Ultimate X-Men #11, "Sins of the Past" (pg. 10-23) 
Ultimate X-Men #12, "End Game" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #14, "Spider-Man and Black Widow" (pg. 4-22) 
The Ultimates #2, "Big" 
The Ultimates #3, "21st Century Boy" 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special #1 (pg. 29-39) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #17, "Taking Advantage" (pg. 5-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #18, "The Cycle" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #19, "Piece of Work" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #20, "Live" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #21, "Hunted" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #46, "Afterwards..." 
Ultimate Spider-Man #22, "Reflections of..." 
Ultimate Spider-Man #23, "Responsible" (pg. 3-10, 1-2, 11-21) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #24, "Ultimatum" (pg. 1-14) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #25, "Plasmids" (pg. 3-13) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #24, "Ultimatum" (pg. 15-21) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #25, "Plasmids" (pg. 1-2, 14-21) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #26, "Circles" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #27, "Illegal" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #15, "Spider-Man and Shang-Chi, Part 1" 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #16, "Spider-Man and Shang-Chi, Part 2" 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special #1 (pg. 40-64) 
Ultimate X-Men #13, "Thief In the Night" 
Ultimate X-Men #14, "Wild Card" 
Ultimate X-Men #15, "It Doesn't Have To Be This Way" 
Ultimate X-Men #16, "World Tour, Part 1" (pg. 7-21, 1-6) 
Ultimate X-Men #17, "World Tour, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #18, "World Tour, Part 3" 
Ultimate X-Men #19, "World Tour, Part 4" 
Ultimate X-Men #20, "Resignation" 
The Ultimates #4, "Thunder" 
The Ultimates #5, "Hulk Does Manhattan" 
The Ultimates #6, "Giant Man vs. The Wasp" (pg. 1-5) 
Ultimate Adventures #1, "It Ain't Me You're Lookin' For, Babe" 
Ultimate Adventures #2, "Send Lawyers, Guns, and Money..." 
Ultimate Adventures #3, "Orangutans Are Skeptical of Changes In Their Cages..." 
Ultimate Adventures #4, "One Tin Soldier" 
Ultimate Adventures #5, "What Becomes of All the Little Boys?" 
Ultimate Adventures #6, " 'Song For Woody' Bob Dylan, 1960" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #28, "Sidetracked" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #29, "Stolen Identity" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #30, "Emergency" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #31, "Black Van" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #32, "Just A Guy" 
The Ultimates #6, "Giant Man vs. The Wasp" (pg. 6-23) 
The Ultimates #7, "Homeland Security" 
The Ultimates #8, "The Experts" 
The Ultimates #9, "Captain America vs. Giant Man" 
The Ultimates #10, "Devils In Disguise" (pg. 7-22) 
The Ultimates #11, "The Art of War" 
The Ultimates #12, "Persons of Mass Destruction" 
The Ultimates #13, "How I Learned To Love The Hulk" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #13, "N-Zone, Part 1" (pg. 3-22) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #14, "N-Zone, Part 2" (pg. 1-10) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #33, "Origins" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #34, "Inheritance" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #35, "Legacy" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #36, "Today" (pg. 1-14, 20-22,15-19) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #37, "Still" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #38, "Father's Pride" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 1: "Father's Pride" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #39, "Therapy" 
Ultimate X-Men #21, "Hellfire and Brimstone, Part 1" 
Ultimate X-Men #22, "Hellfire and Brimstone, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #23, "Hellfire and Brimstone, Part 3" 
Ultimate X-Men #24, "Hellfire and Brimstone, Part 4" 
Ultimate X-Men #25, "Hellfire and Brimstone, Part 5" 
Ultimate X-Men #29, "Return of the King, Part 3" (pg. 1-6, 9-10, 13-15, 21-22) 
Ultimate War #1 
Ultimate War #2 
Ultimate War #3 
Ultimate War #4 
Ultimate X-Men #26, "Return of the King, Prelude" (pg. 21-23) 
Ultimate X-Men #27, "Return of the King, Part 1" 
Ultimate X-Men #28, "Return of the King, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #29, "Return of the King, Part 3" (pg. 7-8, 11-12, 16-20) 
Ultimate X-Men #30, "Return of the King, Part 4" 
Ultimate X-Men #31, "Return of the King, Part 5" 
Ultimate X-Men #32, "Return of the King, Part 6" (pg. 1-10) 
Ultimate Six #1 (pg. 1-7) 
Ultimate X-Men #32, "Return of the King, Part 6" (pg. 11-22) 
Ultimate X-Men #33, "Return of the King, Part 7" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #40, "Average Bear" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #41, "The Letter" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #42, "Temptations" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #43, "Help" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #44, "Tampered" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #45, "Guilt" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 2: "Workout" 
Ultimate Six #1 (pg. 8-28) 
Ultimate Six #2 (pg. 1-5) 
Ultimate X-Men #34, "Blockbuster, Part 1" 
Ultimate X-Men #35, "Blockbuster, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #36, "Blockbuster, Part 3" 
Ultimate X-Men #37, "Blockbuster, Part 4" 
Ultimate X-Men #38, "Blockbuster, Part 5" 
Ultimate X-Men #39, "Blockbuster, Part 6" 
Ultimate Six #2 (pg. 6-23) 
Ultimate Six #3 
Ultimate Six #4 (pg. 2-5, 1, 6-22) 
Ultimate Six #5 
Ultimate Six #6 
Ultimate Six #7 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 3: "Feeding Time" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 4: "Hell of a Mess" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 5: "Like a Rhinoceros, but Bigger" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 6: "Inexpugnable" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 7: "Throw Down" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 8: "Class Trip" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 9: "Pursuit" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 10: "Mine" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 11: "Cool Suit" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 12: "Skyscraper Battle" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 13: "The Great Escape" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 14: "18 and Over" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 15: "A Sample" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 16: "Crazy" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 17: "Rescue" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 18: "Brothers" 
Ultimate Spider-Man - The Video Game, Level 19: "Final Battle" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #47, "Men of Influence" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #48, "Suspended" (pg. 1-11, 15-19, 12-14, 20-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #49, "Hero" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #50, "Black Cat" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #51, "Shadow Puppets" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #52, "Cat Fight" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #53, "Daughters" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #54, "Hollywood, Part 1" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #55, "Hollywood, Part 2" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #56, "Hollywood, Part 3" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #57, "Hollywood, Part 4" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #58, "Hollywood, Part 5" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #59, "Hollywood, Part 6" (pg. 1-19) 
Ultimate X-Men #40, "New Mutants, Part 1" 
Ultimate X-Men #41, "New Mutants, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #42, "New Mutants, Part 3" 
Ultimate X-Men #43, "New Mutants, Part 4" 
Ultimate X-Men #44, "New Mutants, Part 5" 
Ultimate X-Men #45, "New Mutants, Part 6" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #59, "Hollywood, Part 6" (pg. 20-21) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #60, "Carnage, Part 1" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #61, "Carnage, Part 2" (pg. 1-12) 
Ultimate X-Men #46, "The Tempest, Part 1" 
Ultimate X-Men #47, "The Tempest, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #48, "The Tempest, Part 3" 
Ultimate X-Men #49, "The Tempest, Part 4 
The Ultimates - Tomorrow Men (novel)** 

2004 
Ultimate Nightmare #1 (pg. 7-22) 
Ultimate Nightmare #2 
Ultimate Nightmare #3 
Ultimate Nightmare #4 (pg. 1-20) 
Ultimate Nightmare #5 (pg. 1-6) 
Ultimate Nightmare #4 (pg. 21-22) 
Ultimate Nightmare #5 (pg. 7-21) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #61, "Carnage, Part 2" (pg. 13-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #62, "Carnage, Part 3" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #63, "Carnage, Part 4" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #64, "Carnage, Part 5" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #65, "Carnage, Part 6" (pg. 4-7, 1-3, 7-21) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #66, "Even We Don't Believe This" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #67, "Jump the Shark" 
Ultimate X-Men #50, "Cry Wolf, Part 1" 
Ultimate X-Men #51, "Cry Wolf, Part 2" (pg. 3-5, 1-2, 6-23) 
Ultimate X-Men #52, "Cry Wolf, Part 3" 
Ultimate X-Men #53, "Cry Wolf, Conclusion" 
Ultimate X-Men #60, "Shock and Awe, Conclusion" (pg. 1-4) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #73, "Hobgoblin, Part 2" (pg. 1-6) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #68, "Popular" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #69, "Meet Me" (pg. 1-8) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #73, "Hobgoblin, Part 2" (pg. 7) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #69, "Meet Me" (pg. 9-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #73, "Hobgoblin, Part 2" (pg. 8-10) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #70, "Strange, Part 1" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #71, "Strange, Part 2" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #73, "Hobgoblin, Part 2" (pg. 11-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #75, "Hobgoblin, Part 4" (pg. 1-8) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #72, "Hobgoblin, Part 1" (pg. 8-23) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #74, "Hobgoblin, Part 3" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #75, "Hobgoblin, Part 4" (pg. 9-23) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #76, "Hobgoblin, Part 5" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #77, "Hobgoblin, Part 6" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #79, "Warriors, Part 1" (pg. 1-5) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #78, "Dumped" (pg. 1-4) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #79, "Warriors, Part 1" (pg. 6-9) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #78, "Dumped" (pg. 5-21) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #79, "Warriors, Part 1" (pg. 10-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #80, "Warriors, Part 2" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #81, "Warriors, Part 3" (pg. 1-3, 10-16, 4-9, 17-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #82, "Warriors, Part 4" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #83, "Warriors, Part 5" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #84, "Warriors, Part 6" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #85, "Warriors, Part 7" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #14, "N-Zone, Part 2" (pg. 11-22) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #14, "N-Zone, Part 2" (pg. 23-25) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #15, "N-Zone, Part 3" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #16, "N-Zone, Part 4" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #17, "N-Zone, Part 5" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #18, "N-Zone, Part 6" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #19, "Think Tank, Part 1" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #20, "Think Tank, Part 2" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four Annual #1, "Enter: The Inhumans" 
Ultimate Secret #1 
Ultimate Secret #2 
Ultimate Secret #3 
Ultimate Secret #4 
Ultimate Vision #1, "Visions, Part 1" (back-up story in Ultimate Spider-Man #86) 
Ultimate Vision #2, "Visions, Part 2" (back-up story in Ultimate X-Men #65) 
Ultimate Vision #3, "Visions, Part 3" (back-up story in Ultimate Fantastic Four #25) 
Ultimate Vision #4, "Visions, Part 4" (back-up story in Ultimate Spider-Man #87) 
Ultimate Vision #5, "Visions, Part 5" (back-up story in Ultimate Spider-Man #88) 
Ultimate Vision #6, "Visions, Part 6" (back-up story in Ultimate Fantastic Four #26) 
Ultimate Extinction #1 
Ultimate Extinction #2 
Ultimate Extinction #3 
Ultimate Extinction #4 
Ultimate Extinction #5** 
Ultimate Vision #1** 
Ultimate Vision #2** 
Ultimate Vision #3** 
Ultimate Vision #4** 
Ultimate Vision #5** 
Ultimate Vision #6** 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #21, "Crossover, Part 1" (pg. 6-18) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #21, "Crossover, Part 1" (pg. 18-22) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #22, "Crossover, Part 2" (pg. 1-15) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #22, "Crossover, Part 2" (pg. 16-17) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #22, "Crossover, Part 2" (pg. 18-21) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #22, "Crossover, Part 2" (pg. 21-22) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #23, "Crossover, Part 3" (pg. 1-5) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #23, "Crossover, Part 3" (pg. 6-21) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #23, "Crossover, Part 3" (pg. 22-23) 
Marvel Zombies #1 (pg. 1-15) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #24, "Tomb of Namor, Part 1" (pg. 4-14) 
Marvel Zombies #1 (pg. 16-22) 
Marvel Zombies #2 
Marvel Zombies #3 
Marvel Zombies #4 
Marvel Zombies #5 (pg. 1-15) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #24, "Tomb of Namor, Part 1" (pg. 15-23) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #25, "Tomb of Namor, Part 2" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #26, "Tomb of Namor, Part 3" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #86, "Silver Sable, Part 1" (pg. 1-15) 
Ultimate X-Men #54, "The Most Dangerous Game, Part 1" 
Ultimate X-Men #55, "The Most Dangerous Game, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #56, "The Most Dangerous Game, Part 3" 
Ultimate X-Men #57, "The Most Dangerous Game, Part 4" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #27, "President Thor, Part 1" (pg. 4-17, 21) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #28, "President Thor, Part 2" (pg. 3-11) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #29, "President Thor, Conclusion" (pg. 14) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #28, "President Thor, Part 2" (pg. 12-22) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #29, "President Thor, Conclusion" (pg. 1-15, 20-23) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #30, "Frightful, Part 1"** 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #31, "Frightful, Part 2"** 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #32, "Frightful, Part 3"** 
Ultimate X-Men #58, "A Hard Lesson" 
Ultimate X-Men #59, "Shock and Awe, Part 1" (pg. 7-23) 
Ultimate X-Men #60, "Shock and Awe, Conclusion" (pg. 5-23) 
The Ultimates 2 #1, "The Ultimates 2" 
The Ultimates 2 #2, "Dead Man Walking" 
The Ultimates 2 #3, "The Trial of the Hulk" (pg. 1-18) 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2 (pg. 1-6) 
The Ultimates 2 #3, "The Trial of the Hulk" (pg. 19-23) 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2 (pg. 7-9) 
The Ultimates 2 #4, "Brothers" (pg. 1-8) 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2 (pg. 10-12) 
The Ultimates 2 #4, "Brothers" (pg. 9-23) 
The Ultimates 2 #5, "The Passion Play" 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2 (pg. 13) 
The Ultimates 2 #6, "The Defenders" (pg. 1-12) 
The Ultimates 2 #7, "Wolf In The Fold" (pg. 1-10) 
The Ultimates 2 #10, "Axis of Evil" (pg. 1-2) 
The Ultimates 2 #6, "The Defenders" (pg. 13-23) 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2 (pg. 14-21) 
Ultimate X-Men #61, "Magnetic North, Part 1" (pg. 1-8) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Annual #1, "More Than You Bargained For" 
Ultimate X-Men Annual #1, "Ultimate Sacrifice" 
Ultimate X-Men #61, "Magnetic North, Part 1" (pg. 9-22) 
Ultimate X-Men #62, "Magnetic North, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #63, "Magnetic North, Part 3" 
Ultimate X-Men #64, "Magnetic North, Part 4" (pg. 3-18, 1-2, 19-23) 
Ultimate X-Men #65, "Magnetic North, Part 5" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #86, "Silver Sable, Part 1" (pg. 16) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #87, "Silver Sable, Part 2" (pg. 5-6) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #86, "Silver Sable, Part 1" (pg. 17-21) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #87, "Silver Sable, Part 2" (pg. 1-4, 7-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #88, "Silver Sable, Part 3" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #89, "Silver Sable, Part 4" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #90, "Silver Sable, Part 5" (pg. 1-20) 
Ultimate X-Men/Fantastic Four #1, "Bootstrap, Part 1" 
Ultimate Fantastic Four/X-Men #1, "Bootstrap, Part 2" 
The Ultimates 2 #10, "Axis of Evil" (pg. 3-5) 
The Ultimates Annual #1, "The Reserves" 
Ultimate X-Men #66, "Date Night, Part 1" 
Ultimate X-Men #67, "Date Night, Part 2" 
Ultimate X-Men #68, "Date Night, Part 3" 
Ultimate X-Men #69, "Phoenix?, Part 1" 
Ultimate X-Men #70, "Phoenix?, Part 2"** 
Ultimate X-Men #71, "Phoenix?, Part 3"** 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #1 (pg. 6-22) 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2 (pg. 22) 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #1 (pg. 2-3, 1, 4-5) 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #3** 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #4** 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #5** 
Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #6** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #90, "Silver Sable, Part 5" (pg. 21-22) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #91, "Deadpool, Part 1" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #92, "Deadpool, Part 2" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #93, "Deadpool, Part 3" 
Ultimate Spider-Man #94, "Deadpool, Part 4"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #95, "Morbius, Part 1"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #96, "Morbius, Part 2"** 
Ultimate X-Men #72, "Magical, Part 1"** 
Ultimate X-Men #73, "Magical, Part 2"** 
Ultimate X-Men #74, "Magical, Part 3"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #97, "The Clone Saga, Part 1"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #98, "The Clone Saga, Part 2"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #99, "The Clone Saga, Part 3"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #100, "The Clone Saga, Part 4"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #101, "The Clone Saga, Part 5"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #102, "The Clone Saga, Part 6"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #103, "The Clone Saga, Part 7"** 
Ultimate Spider-Man #104, "The Clone Saga, Part 8"** 
The Ultimates 2 #7, "Wolf In The Fold" (pg. 11-22) 
The Ultimates 2 #8, "Born on the Fourth of July" 
The Ultimates 2 #9, "Grand Theft America" 
The Ultimates 2 #10, "Axis of Evil" (pg. 6-26) 
The Ultimates 2 #11** 
The Ultimates 2 #12** 
The Ultimates 2 #13** 
Ultimate Spider-Man Annual #2** 
Ultimate X-Men Annual #2** 
Ultimate Fantastic Four Annual #2** 
The Ultimates Annual #2** 

2005 
The Ultimates 3 #1** 
The Ultimates 3 #2** 
The Ultimates 3 #3** 
The Ultimates 3 #4** 
The Ultimates 3 #5** 
The Ultimates 3 #6** 
Supreme Power #7, Powers and Principalities 
Supreme Power #8, Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas 
Supreme Power #9, Ten OClock 
Supreme Power #10, Ladies Night 
Supreme Power #11, Never Alone 
Supreme Power #12, Ominous Tidings Expressed as Four-Part Harmony 
Supreme Power #13, Natural Orders (pg. 1-17) 
Supreme Power #14, Objects in Motion (pg. 2-6) 
Supreme Power #13, Natural Orders (pg. 18-22) 
Supreme Power #14, Objects in Motion (pg. 1, 6-23) 
Supreme Power #15, Collateral Damage 
Supreme Power #16, The Deconstruction of Mark Milton 
Supreme Power #17, True Faces 
Supreme Power #18, Exhibit R: The Statement of Mark Milton 

2006 
Supreme Power - Hyperion #1, Alone (pg. 4-21, 1-3, 22) 
Supreme Power - Hyperion #2, Fallen Angels (pg. 1-14) 
Supreme Power - Hyperion #5, "The Prodigal Son" (17-22) 
Squadron Supreme #1, "The Pre-War Years" (pg. 2-21, 1, 21-23) 
Squadron Supreme #2, "First Steps" 
Squadron Supreme #3** 
Squadron Supreme #4** 
Squadron Supreme #5** 
Squadron Supreme #6** 
Ultimate Power #1** 
Ultimate Power #2** 
Ultimate Power #3** 
Ultimate Power #4** 
Ultimate Power #5** 
Ultimate Power #6** 
Ultimate Power #7** 
Ultimate Power #8** 
Ultimate Power #9** 

2008 
Supreme Power - Hyperion #2, Fallen Angels (pg. 15-22) 
Supreme Power - Hyperion #3, The Least Resistance 
Supreme Power - Hyperion #4, Full Circle 
Supreme Power - Hyperion #5, "The Prodigal Son" (1-16) 

2009 
Marvel Zombies #5 (pg. 16-24)

Last edited by DIrishB on 29 Apr 2006 03:16 am; edited 5 times in total

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Posted: 24 Feb 2005 07:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That color-coding idea is awesome! I may steal it for my own personal filing system, if you don't mind.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Oct 2005 07:40 am    
By tyciol

Thanks! This is going to be very useful! 

So... this is the timeline... but what order should we actually read them all in? So far I've read... 

Ultimate Spider-Man 1-71 
Ultimate X-Men 1-25 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 1-16 

Right now where I've gotten to with Spider-Man and X-men they're both referring to the events of Ultimate War I think, so I should read that, but I think that means I should read the Ultimates first, right? Then I thought maybe I should read all the team-ups, they're all supplementary to Spider-Man's adventures and probably already happened before 71, just wish I could place em all :p I remember him referring to Wolverine in that Arc when he meets them in his own comic, but how come that wasn't a teamup? 

Sometimes they come out with a special comic for crossovers and other times they just DO them...
_________________
Tyciol (too new for a sigfreud)

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Posted: 23 Oct 2005 09:21 am    
By jephyork
Director

Welcome to the boards, tyciol. 

Quote: 
>>>
So... this is the timeline... but what order should we actually read them all in? 
<<<

Uh, you'd read them in the order they're listed in on the timeline. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Oct 2005 10:04 am    
By JD

Note that this timeline seems to have lots of errors concerning UFF. 

I've already explained why UFF 2-6 should be after UXM 12 in another thread. 

There is also a problem with UFF 14-18 : UFF 18 finishes with the FF becoming public, while USM 68-69 has Johnny unable to talk to SM about the FF because they're not public yet. So UFF 14-18 goes after these issues of USM. 

Ultimate Iron Man v1 (which only has 5 issues) seems to be mainly a big flashback/contuinity implant (the youth of Tony Stark). As of #4, we've seeing him join the Baxter Building pre-UFF 1.

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 12:57 pm    
By Crazy Penguin

Ultimate Spider-Man video game SPOILERS ahead. 

S 
P 
O 
I 
L 
E 
R 
S 

The game's intro shows Peter being bitten by the spider and gives an overview of the Venom storyarc, the first playable part of the game is the fight on the football field from the Venom arc which ends with him getting hit by electricity. Then it skips forward a few months. The first time you fight a few thugs reminds me of a bit from the comic, but I'm not quite sure where. Anyway, one of the very earliest parts of the game has Spider-Man racing "Johnny Storm of the world famous Fantastic Four", so the Fantastic Four have already gone public. The game takes place before the Hobgoblin arc because Peter and Mary Jane are still a couple and Nick Fury isn't pissed off at Peter. 

E 
N 
D 

O 
F 

S 
P 
O 
I 
L 
E 
R 
S

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 04:56 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Crazy Penguin wrote: 
>>>
The game takes place before the Hobgoblin arc because Peter and Mary Jane are still a couple and Nick Fury isn't pissed off at Peter. 
<<<

Um...games aren't canon. 


watching: wolf blitzer

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Posted: 07 Nov 2005 06:36 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, unusually, explicitly IS canon. Bendis wrote the script and has been very clear about this in numerous interviews. It's apparently going to be referenced in an upcoming storyline.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 08 Nov 2005 03:52 am    
By JD

In that case, maybe someone should do an analysis of it (I have absolutely no clue of what is supposed to happen in there)...

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Posted: 08 Nov 2005 04:52 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, it wouldn't qualify for a MCP listing because (a) it isn't a comic, and (b) for obvious reasons, it's different every time you play it. Basically, though, the game is structure so that you can just swing around New York if you want to, but to advance the plot, you have to do as you're told, arrive at the appropriate location, and trigger a Bendis-written cut scene. The actual story consists of the cut scenes and the mission segments which follow. 

It's actually quite a significant story for Ultimate Venom, and features the debuts of the Beetle and the Silver Surfer, so I can only hope they recap it effectively in the comics for those who don't have a copy of the game. (Or couldn't finish it.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Nov 2005 05:39 pm    
By DIrishB

Silver Surfer? I assume you mean Silver Sable. Also, this game will have an important role in the current USM arc, aptly titled "Silver Sable", running from USM #86-90. Only the first issue is out now, but the solicitation for the final issue of the arc confirms Ultimate Vulture will be showing up in #90...and if you've played the game, you know Adrian Toombes (the Vulture) was in the game as a scientist working under Trask Industries. So the game is BOTH in continuity and will play an important role in future arcs. If you haven't played it and are a USM fan, I'd recommend checking it out. 



As for the timeline, I've updated it for the first time in well over a year, so now it should be correct. Anything marked with a "*" hasn't been released yet and its placement is tentative. 

Also, I regularly update the timeline over on Ultimate Central at the following link: 

Ultimate Marvel Timeline / Chronology

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Posted: 18 Nov 2005 08:48 am    
By JD

DIrishB wrote: 
>>>
As for the timeline, I've updated it for the first time in well over a year, so now it should be correct. 
<<<

Alas, it's not. You still have UFF #2-6 before UXM #12 (which is contradicted by the recent OHOTMU), and UFF #14-20 before USM #68-69 (which is impossible, as the FF are explicitly not public in USM #68-69).

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Posted: 11 Jan 2006 10:28 pm    
By Xalibar

I like the color. You may be confusing come with the whole pg (1-2) with the rest finishing years later. How do you know that UDD and UE takes place in 1997?

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Posted: 23 Jan 2006 04:29 pm    
By Cremcrow

This is a fantastic resource, and I'd like to thank everyone who has helped iron out these issues. 

I have one addition to make: Peter Parker's comment in Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special #1 about "a guy with metal arms goes nuts" indicates that pages 1-28 should follow Ultimate Spider-Man #17, rather than precede USM #14.

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Posted: 27 Apr 2006 04:24 am    
By DIrishB

In regards to the update, notice I've included Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme issues with the announcement of the upcoming Ultimate Power mini. This indicates Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme occurs in a parallel reality to the Ultimate universe, just as Marvel Zombies does, so its included in the timeline. Anything occuring in an alternate reality is now marked in italics (Marvel Zombies, Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme, UFF N-Zone and Crossover arcs, etc). 


JD wrote: 
>>>
DIrishB wrote: 
>>>
As for the timeline, I've updated it for the first time in well over a year, so now it should be correct. 
<<<

Alas, it's not. You still have UFF #2-6 before UXM #12 (which is contradicted by the recent OHOTMU), and UFF #14-20 before USM #68-69 (which is impossible, as the FF are explicitly not public in USM #68-69). 
<<<

The UFF N-Zone placement before the Torch/Spidey team up in USM #68-69 has been corrected. 

However, the placements of UFF #2-6 are not incorrect as far as I'm concerned. The OHOTMU (both versions, the Ultimates/UXM and the USM/UFF) both have more than a few mistakes in them. Therefore, I'm not considering any info from them more than tentatively reliable. 

As for the reasons I placed UFF #2-6 as I did, the mention of the FF in Ultimates #2 is some evidence, no more or less valid than the mention of the Ultimates in UFF #5. Either way, one is a discrepancy. Secondly, Millar himself has stated time and again that he intended the UFF to have formed before any of the other Ultimate heroes/teams, meaning before USM, UXM, or Ultimates. This gives further evidence that the FF mention in Ultimates #2 is the correct choice. Ross reappearance in UFF #13 doesn't necessarily mean that the early UFF issues occur after UXM #12. As you put it: 

JD wrote: 
UFF 1-FB ("21 years ago") Birth of Reed Richards 
UFF 1-FB ("11 years ago") Youth of Reed 
UFF 1-FB ("6 months later") Reed is recruited to the Baxter Building 
UFF 2-FB ("5 years ago") Ross fires Molekevic [H] 
UMTU 2-3 Banner-Hulk incident, Ross recaptures him [H] 
UXM 9 Fury captured, Wraith shows Ross the captured X-Men [H] 
UXM 10 Fury rescued 
UXM 11 Ross announces to Wraith by visiophone that Weapon X will be shut down (and replaced but what would become the Ultimates), then makes Xavier (?) blow up the reunion room where Ross is [H] 
UXM 12 Fury shuts down Weapon X and has taken over SHIELD [H] 
U1 2 Fury starts the Ultimates 
[...] 
UFF 2 ("Today") accident with the N-Zone experiment that causes the FF's and Doom's mutation ; Ross is overseeing operations [H] 
UFF 3-4 
UFF 5 Dr Storm says "Let the Ultimates handle it"  


It works with the same amount of discrepancy the way I had it originally listed, and a bit more sense. After all, the way I arranged it immediately gives an explanation of Ross' survival. 

Also, the UMTU #14 issue, with Black Widow breaking into the Latverian embassy, features several references to Doom, including a flashback sequence in the first two pages which occurred six months previous to the present day setting for the story (the rest of which occurs immediately before Ultimates #2 as Fury recruits Black Widow to SHIELD at the end of UMTU #14). If the UFF #7-12 occur after this, it makes no sense. You forgot that bit of evidence in your theory. 

My timeline is set up to minimize discrepancies, and your suggestion would only add more. I don't mean to sound like I'm talking down to you, but honestly, sit down, read them in the order I suggest, then yours, and tell me it doesn't work better my way. Again, this isn't only my opinion. This particular issue was discussed ad nauseum over on UltimateCentral.com where I originally posted this timeline. And this is the best ordering possible, least that we could come up with. 

Of course, if you're planning on ignoring the UMTU issues, as many do, thats understandable. But this timeline is meant to be comprehensive, covering every Ultimate and related title (Marvel Zombies, Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme, etc) released. I'm not just picking and choosing as some like to do. Hope that explains why I placed it as I did.

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Posted: 29 Apr 2006 03:07 am    
By DIrishB

JD wrote: 
>>>
Note that this timeline seems to have lots of errors concerning UFF. 

I've already explained why UFF 2-6 should be after UXM 12 in another thread. 

There is also a problem with UFF 14-18 : UFF 18 finishes with the FF becoming public, while USM 68-69 has Johnny unable to talk to SM about the FF because they're not public yet. So UFF 14-18 goes after these issues of USM. 

Ultimate Iron Man v1 (which only has 5 issues) seems to be mainly a big flashback/contuinity implant (the youth of Tony Stark). As of #4, we've seeing him join the Baxter Building pre-UFF 1. 
<<<

One more thing (I forgot to bring up in another post). My theory on the timeline set up is further proven correct by the recently released UFF #28, which placed the teleportation accident 2 years previous to their present time...meaning my placing it in 2002 and their current adventures in 2004 works. The Doom arc in #7-12 follows only two months later, so its pretty safe to assume both occur in 2002. There is another four month jump in time between #12 and #13, the beginning of the N-Zone arc, as Dr. Storm states its been 6 months since the teleportation accident in the beginning of #14 (though it might've been #13, going off memory). There is obviously another large jump in time during the N-Zone arc while they're preparing the shuttle for the jump to the N-Zone. The adventures in the N-Zone, which culminate back in Las Vegas with the FF becoming public, are immediately followed by Mike Carey's two parter in #19-20. The Annual then takes place an unspecified amount of time later, with Millar's Crossover arc in #21-23 picking up sometime after that. In between all his arcs are small, unspecified amounts of time (#21-23, #24-26, #27-29), but with the recent release of #29, we can expect the next arc to pick up very soon after President Thor's end. 

Trust me man, I've put a lot of time into this.

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Thread 27

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:56 pm    Post subject: Werner Von Doom in 2099 time travel story...how to handle...
By Enda80

I am told that Werner Von Doom showed up in a time travel appearance in Doom 2099#25. How would that get handled?

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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:37 pm  
By Kevin W.
Director

I don't see that name in the MCP...do you mean VON STRUCKER, WERNER? 

And it would depend on the exact details of the time-travel story, more than likely...if the character arrived in the future of 2099, and stayed there, then I suppose just like the entire 2099 series, we'd have to write it off as a divergent timeline appearance, and thus "not canon" as far as the main Marvel universe goes... 

If the character travels to the future for one issue, and then travels back to the present, if it doesn't mess up the character's chronology somehow...then I suspect we simply add Doom 2099#25 to the character's MCP listing in the appropriate spot.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:20 am    
By Peter Fabricius

No, Doom's father Werner appears in Doom 2099 #25, when Doom travels through time. 
There is also an appearance of Werner's unnamed mother.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:45 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Ah, I see now. Well, if the character isn't in the MCP, then the character probably hasn't been introduced in the main "present day" Marvel Universe, and thus we wouldn't add a listing in the "regular" MCP. Instead, we would add a listing to the 2099 page.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!	

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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:30 pm    
By Sean Curtin

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/vondoomwerner.htm 

VON DOOM, WERNER 
DSDDGN-FB 
FF@ 2-FB 

-Sean

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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:43 am    
By Peter Fabricius

The appearance in Doom 2099 #25 if of a boy, about a head shorter than his mother. I don't have the Doom/Strange Graphic Novel, but it is clearly before the FF@ 2-FB. 

There is a glaring error on the page, in the second panel of page 4 Werner is dark haired, and his mother is blonde, in the third panel both have brown hair.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:24 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, then, I guess an entry needs added to the MCP. As for the appearance in Doom 2099 #25, well, is this just like the flashback's in the THE END series? If it's set in "present day" Marvel, it might qualify for a listing in the regular MCP?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:43 am    
By Peter Fabricius

It is not a flashback, Doom of 2099 is time travelling. There are a few other times he goes to. 

Page 4 - Page 5 panel 1 is set in Latveria, at the time of Werner's youth, or so it seems. 

Page 6 is set in 1942 and a group of german soldiers is seen. 

Page 8 is in the Baxter Building, Doom and his opponent, Erik Czerny, who also believes himself to be Doom, are nearly invisible, are seen for a moment by Ben Grimm. Reed Richards is also present, trying once.again to cure Ben. 

Page 9-10 have several time junps 
1999 Rome being buried in lava. 
2020 An army of Iron Man 2020 armors flying 
2040 Wolverine being killed by a Sentinel, just like in Days of Future Past 
2060 Castle Doom being blown up 

Page 12/13 (double page spread) panel 11 - Page 18 panel 2 
Both Dooms materialize in 2089 and discover the truth about who is Doom 
Both Doom, Erik Czerny and also Margaretta von Geisterstadt from this time appears.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:09 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
It is not a flashback, Doom of 2099 is time travelling.  


Yes, but what I'm pondering is for sequences that take place in the past, (around the current Marvel Era), are we listing those appearances in the regular MCP, or just on the 2099 page? Because 2099 IS just an alternate future, (of course, there is no definative Marvel future...) 

For instance, what if Doom 2099 thinks back in his to an event where he fought the FF, and it's not an appearance we've seen before, do we put that in FF and Doom's chronology in the regular MCP, or just make a listing on 2099 page? 

Or what if in a 2099 comic, we saw video footage of an old FF vs. Dr. Doom battle, not seen before now. Would we list this in the regular MCP? 

And as brought up here by Enda80, here we have a new appearance by Werner Von Doom in a time travel sequence...so where does that go? 

I ask because if the flashback's in "Wolverine: The End" are canon, then what about other possible futures, like 2099 and MC-2? I was earlier advocating possible additions in such instances to the regular MCP, but now I'm not so sure...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:56 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The question is, "Are they canon?" If so, they should be added to the mainstream MCP. 


watching: sports center

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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:23 am    
By Peter Fabricius

There is nothing to indicate that they are canon. 
There is nothing to indicate that they are not canon. 

To the best of my knowledge.  

So long as it does not contradict anything we already know about the characters, I think it should be included.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

Here's the canon test: 

1) Is the 2099 timeline a canon alternate future -- meaning did it, at one point, branch off of the mainstream Marvel timeline? 

2) If so, did the 2099 timeline branch off at a point AFTER the time-travel destinations in question? 

I seem to recall that the "Spider-Man meets Spider-Man 2099" one-shot answered both those questions with a "yes". Therefore, it seems to me that young Werner von Doom's appearance in question took place in the canonical Marvel Universe. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:21 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I seem to recall that the "Spider-Man meets Spider-Man 2099" one-shot answered both those questions with a "yes". Therefore, it seems to me that young Werner von Doom's appearance in question took place in the canonical Marvel Universe. 
<<<


I checked and the date Miguel is sent back to is clearly the divergence point between the norman Marvel Universe and the branch that becomes the 2099 Universe. 
There is a small escape clause in that Miguel's timeline seems to have been altered slightly, so that the pivotal event has changed, and they could still be the future of the MU.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:46 pm    
By Kman00001

Peter Fabricius wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I seem to recall that the "Spider-Man meets Spider-Man 2099" one-shot answered both those questions with a "yes". Therefore, it seems to me that young Werner von Doom's appearance in question took place in the canonical Marvel Universe. 
<<<

I checked and the date Miguel is sent back to is clearly the divergence point between the norman Marvel Universe and the branch that becomes the 2099 Universe. 
There is a small escape clause in that Miguel's timeline seems to have been altered slightly, so that the pivotal event has changed, and they could still be the future of the MU. 
<<<

Hmm...I'm almost a year late with this one... 

There was that semi-crossover between Doom 2099 and Fantastic Four volume 1 also. I forget the circumstances involved, though. It's been a few years since I read those books. Just thought I'd mention it. 

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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:07 pm    
By Andy Grant

Doom 2099 travelled back to the MU where he tortured his younger self, despite remembering causing himself the pain. It was quite creepy. As well as being told in the pages of D2099, he also showed up in Fantastic Four, Daredevil, and I think Namor?

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Thread 28

Posted: 29 Mar 2006 02:42 am    Post subject: Runaways v2 #13
By JD

RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #13 
Writer : Brian K Vaughan 
Penciller : Adrian Alphona 
Published in February 2006 

"Dead Ringers" 

Appearances : 
- Molly Hayes/Bruiser/Princess Powerful 
- The Provost 
- The "Artful Dodgers" : Gordon, Bob, Suzy, Maria, Luis 
- The Leapfrog 
- Most probably behind the scenes : the other Runaways (Nico Minoru/Sister Grimm, Gertrude Yorkes/Arsenic 2, Victor Mancha/Victorious, Chase Stein/Talkback, Old Lace) 

Synopsis : 
Molly wakes up in a sewer, surrounded by a few other kids. They have all been kidnapped by the Provost, who forces them to pick pockets and commit other acts of thievery for him (he has placed magic collars around their necks that can turn them to stone if they do not comply). He sends them to rob a bank. Molly drives the kids to turn against the Provost, and finally turn him into stone by breaking his magic wand. The kids go home, Molly falls asleep at a bus stop near the La Brea Tar Pits (where the Runaways' hideout is located). 


Notes : 
- The whole story lasts a few hours, all in nighttime. No flashbacks. 
- Molly says that the Runaways were fighting "this gross dragon woman" when she fell into an aquaduct. Any idea who that would be ? 
- I added "Princess Powerful" to the list of Molly's codenames, since she still uses it (she introduced it in Runaways vol. 1 #6, but the other Runaways never acknowledged it). 
- There is a quick reference to Decimation : "I thought [the mutants] were all dead or something." Since we already know that Runaways vol. 2 #9-12 were post-HoM, this is not new information. 
- The Bank the Artful Dodgers are to rob is the same one as the one the Wrecking Crew tried to rob in Runaways vol. 2 #1. 
- There is a cute dreaming sequence at the end where Molly dreams that her parents being evil was just a bad nightmare. 
- We see the Leapfrog passing by in the last page, hence the BTS status for the other Runaways. The Leapfrog itself deserves an appearance, since it was revealed in Runaways vol. 2 #8 that it was sentient ("It just started talking the other day", says Molly in this issue). 
- It's not clear how much time has passed since #12. Whatever is convenient, I guess. 



Next up : Sentinel v2 ! Except I haven't let my hands on #5 yet, so it'll have to wait a bit.

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Posted: 29 Mar 2006 06:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, JD. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2006 08:42 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
- Molly says that the Runaways were fighting "this gross dragon woman" when she fell into an aquaduct. Any idea who that would be ? 


Possibly Dragoness, a mutant from early X-Force period (MLF?)? Is she still around?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 01 Apr 2006 10:40 pm    
By Somebody

She's on the 198 list

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Thread 29

Posted: 30 Mar 2006 07:50 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 Issue #88-91
By Kevin W.
Director

Sorry Paul, this review feels like it's 10 years late,  but here it is. Hope this helps shed some more light on the Illuminati special, (which I just read tonight, and I talk about it some below as well). More reviews to come soon! 

Chronology Review for Incredible Hulk vol. 3 #88-91 
Written by Daniel Way 
Drawn by Keu Cha and Juan Santacruz 

This story is set what is possibly several months after M-Day, (its been a while since Issue #87). 

Incredible Hulk Vol. 3 #88 
Written by Daniel Way 
Drawn by Keu Cha 

Appearances: The Hulk, (Bruce Banner), Nick Fury, (Note: its been revealed this is an LMD, not the real Fury). New Characters: Mark Depolna, Katie. 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-9: This scene occurs on Tuesday. Bruce Banner is living like a hermit in the Alaskan Wilderness. On this day, he is paid a visit by Mark a person who flies around and delivers supplies to people living in the wilderness. They share a meal, and Mark invites Bruce to come to a bar in the nearby town of Kinnetuk this Saturday. Bruce at first says he prefers to be all-alone, but Mark talks him into it. 

Pg. 10-20: This scene occurs on the following Saturday. Bruce shows up at the bar on Saturday night, and meets up with Mark and Katie a girl Marks flirting with. Bruce overhears a couple of guys who are planning on raping a drunken girl. They take the drunken girl out back into the woods, but Banner follows them out there. He turns into the Hulk and beats up the thugs, before disappearing. 

Pgs.21-22: This scene occurs some days latermaybe a few short weeks later. Mark is paying another visit to Bruce out at his lodge in the woods. Mark invites him to another social event, but Bruce says he doesnt plan on ever going back into town, and that its for the best. Mark then hands Bruce a communicator device, and with the push of a button, Nick Fury appears before Bruce as a hologram, with a message to tell Bruce. It turns out Mark is a SHIELD agent who was given orders to hunt down Bruce 

References: 

Pg. 1: The narrative text says that its spring season in the Alaskan Wilderness. All of the grizzly bears are coming out of hibernation. 

Pg. 6: Mark says to Bruce, Ive been deliverin to you for a while nowso Bruce has been living on his own in the Alaskan wilderness for a while. 

Pg. 8: Bruce tells Mark, See you sometime next month. This would seem to indicate that Mark delivers supplies to Bruce once a month. 

Also on Pg. 8: Mark says, You oughtta come down to Kinnetuk this Saturday. 

Pg. 9: Bruce asks what day it is today, to which Mark replies, Its Tuesday! So the scene on pgs. 1-9 happens on Tuesday, and pgs. 10-20 happens on Saturday. 

Pg. 15: Theres a full moon in the sky on this page. 

Incredible Hulk Vol. 3 #89 
Written by Daniel Way 
Drawn by Keu Cha 

Appearances: The Hulk, (Bruce Banner), Nick Fury, (its been revealed this is an LMD, not the real Fury), Mark Depolna, (a SHIELD agent). 

Synopsis: This issue is told out of chronological order, so Im reorganizing it into a linear fashion for this review: 

Pgs. 3-11: Narrative Caption reads, 6 days ago. Bruce is dropped off at a SHIELD base by Mark, whom we now learn is named Agent Depolna. Fury greets Banner, and asks for some help with a problem: He tells Banner theres a Hydra satellite with a rogue A.I. floating in orbit thats prepared to set off all of the nuclear missiles in the world. Fury asks Banner to turn into the Hulk and smash it. 

Pgs. 13-14: The same day. Banner at first refuses to become the Hulk to smash the Satellite. Fury tells Banner to think it over. 

Pg. 15p2-4 -16: The same day. That evening, Banner is sitting in his room in the SHIELD base, thinking it over. He pages Fury, and tells Nick that hell agree to do it. 

Pgs. 17-18: Narrative caption reads, 5 days ago. Fury gives some final instructions to the Hulk, who is loaded aboard a space pod and lifted off the ground by SHIELD transport planes. 

Pgs. 1-2: The same day as the prior scene. The space pod containing the Hulk is blasted into space. 

Pg. 12: Narrative caption reads, Now. The Hulk is sitting in the pod, waiting to be discovered by the rogue satellite, (we are told by Fury that the rogue satellite will think the pod is debris, and will scavenge it for supplies). 

Pgs. 19-22: The same day as the prior scene. The rogue satellite finds the pod, and starts tearing it apart. The Hulk makes contact with the satellite, only to discover it has the SHIELD symbol on it, not the Hydra insignia! The big revelation is that this satellite was created by SHIELD, not by Hydra. Fury lied to Bruce 

References: 

Pg. 4: Fury explains that the rogue satellite was launched, back in the early seventies. But as we learn, this was a SHIELD satellite, not a Hydra satellitewas there even a SHIELD in place back in the seventies? I wonder if this is supposed to be before or after FF #1? 

Pg. 6p1-4: As Fury narrates; we see a brief flashback to the satellite being launched in the 70s. A SHIELD spy plants the A.I. on the rocket, and the Russians launch the satellite into orbit. The A.I. takes control of the satellite, killing the crew of Russians on board, (its more of a space station than a satellite). 

Pg. 10: Fury admits theyve tried to destroy this rogue satellite two times prior to this, but that the satellite always fought back and beat them back. He says the last time ended badly, and that that occurred on April 25th, 1986. Which Bruce points out was the date of the Chernobyl incident. So if this is to be believed, a Rogue SHIELD satellite was responsible for Chernobyl.... 

Pg. 16: Fury says to Bruce, Well launch at zero-four hundred hours. So, the launch scene on pgs. 1 and 2, and pgs. 17 and 18, is at 4 am. 

Incredible Hulk Vol. 3 #90 
Written by Daniel Way 
Drawn by Juan Santacruz 

Appearances: The Hulk, (Bruce Banner), Nick Fury, (its been revealed this is an LMD, not the real Fury), and The President, (a BTS appearance for G.W. Bush?) 

Synopsis: All events in this issue happen over the course of probably no more than 30 minutes. 

The Hulk attacks the rogue satellite, but is defeated and pulled into the vessel. Seeing that the Hulk has failed, Fury calls in a wave of SHIELD agents in attack fighters, but they are destroyed by the satellite. The satellite glows with energy, and the people at SHIELD suddenly realize that the satellite has transformed all of its energy to Gamma radiation, (the satellite is trying to mimic the Hulk). Inside the satellite, the Hulk has fallen unconscious and become Banner again. Banner wakes up and walks around the interior of the satellite, until he is confronted by a mechanical monster, (which is supposedly the A.I. of the rogue satellite). 

References: 

Pg. 16: A SHIELD flunkie reports to Nick Fury that they have a phone call from the President. Fury says hell call the President back when he has some answers for him. So, that makes for a BTS appearance for the President? 

Incredible Hulk Vol. 3 #91 
Written by Daniel Way 
Drawn by Jose Santacruz 

Appearances: The Hulk, (Bruce Banner), Nick Fury, (its been revealed this is an LMD, not the real Fury). Also, though we dont see them on the video screen, we learn next issue, (and in the Illuminati special) that Reed Richards, Blackbolt, Iron Man, and Dr. Strange are all on this video tape, letting the Hulk know they are exiling him into space. 

Synopsis: All events in this issue happen over a few minutes, (probably less than an hour). 

Nick holds a conference with the Pentagon, in which he says that their only hope now is that the Godseye satellite overloads itself trying to absorb all of this Gamma radiation, (the Godseye tries to mimic whatever is thrown at it). The mechanical monster inside the satellite attacks Bruce, who changes back into the Hulk. The Hulk and the Godseye monster fight each other. The Godseye eventually overloads and explodes, trying to replicate the strength and energy of the Hulk. The Hulk is picked up by a passing SHIELD spaceship, and he climbs onboard, thinking hes heading back to Earth, but then the automated ship turns around and flies AWAY from the Earth! A video message starts broadcasting a message from the Illuminati, (we hear Reeds words, but dont see the screen). The Hulk learns hes being exiled into space. Back on Earth, Fury gives himself a pat on the back, (its never revealed here that this was an LMD). 

References: 

Pg. 3: Fury tells the Pentagon Generals, Look, I know what this things made of-I, basically, made it. So that means Fury was creating killer space weapons in the 70sthis contradicts the Illuminati special, (more details on that below). 

By the way, this Godseye satellite is the same top-secret weapon that was mentioned in the conversation between Jessica Drew and the Hydra agent in New Avengers #14. 

Okay, moving on: Having just read New Avengers: The Illuminati special, it is indeed confirmed that this is an LMD, and that the real Nick Fury is still in hiding at the time of these events in these issues. Okay, so the Illuminati got ahold of an LMDbut why is SHIELD following orders from an LMD? I mean, once the Hulk was up in space, they could pretty well drop the actjust something that struck me, thats all. 

Also, in the Illuminati special, Tony Stark says that he was one of the people who created the Godseye satellite. That doesnt quite match up with the narrative in these issues, which says that the satellite was a creation of the Cold War, and it was blasted into space back in the 70s, (though I guess it all depends on whether you believe the 70s occurred after Fantastic Four #1). 

Inconsistencies?!? Who would've thought!!  

Next up is my review for Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her #1-6.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 05:40 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Many of these problems only arise if you assume that "Fury" is telling the Hulk the truth, which is a doubtful assumption. After all, we know "Fury" was lying about it being a HYDRA satellite.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Mar 2006 08:19 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yes, the most obvious solution is to assume the "Fury" shown here is lying. I just figured I'd point out the inconsistencies...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 11:32 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Kevin. Let's see if I have things right once I do a little reformatting... How's this sequence for this Hulk story arc and Illuminati? Can someone fill in the "x"s? 


NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1  FB (12-13) 
One day, shortly after FF 535 (6-23). This flashback cannot occur between A4 15 and A4 16; it probably occurs before A4 11 (16-22). Iron Man meets with Commander Maria Hill to discuss the chaos wrought by the Hulk in Las Vegas. Hill chides Iron Man for refusing to terminate threats like the Hulk who keep going on rampages. She notes that folks on Capitol Hill are looking to blame super-heroes for this kind of threat  a reference to the Superhuman Registration Act. 

NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1  FB (14-22) 
One day, shortly after NA:I 1-FB (12-13). The Illuminati (Iron Man, Reed, Namor, Strange, and Black Bolt) meet to discuss how to deal with Hulk. The team votes to exile him to space, but Namor refuses to go along and gets into a fight with Iron Man. Namor admonishes the group and leaves. 

INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #88 (1-9) 
One Tuesday, shortly after NA:I 1-FB (14-22). Bruce Banner, living like a hermit in the Alaskan wilderness for a while, is paid a visit by Mark, a person who flies around and delivers supplies to people living in the wilderness. They share a meal, and Mark invites Bruce to come to a bar in the nearby town of Kinnetuk this Saturday. Bruce at first says he prefers to be alone, but Mark talks him into it. It is spring and the grizzly bears are coming out of hibernation. 

INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #88 (10-20) 
The Saturday night after H3 88 (1-9). Bruce shows up at the bar and meets up with Mark and Katie, a girl with whom Mark flirts. Bruce overhears a couple of guys who are planning on raping a drunken girl. They take the drunken girl out back into the woods, but Banner follows them out there. He turns into the Hulk and beats up the thugs before disappearing. Full moon. 

INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #88 (21-22) 
One day. Mark pays another visit to Bruce at his lodge in the woods. Mark invites him to another social event, but Bruce says he doesnt plan on ever going back into town, and that its for the best. Mark then hands Bruce a communicator device, and with the push of a button, the Nick Fury LMD (who Bruce believes is the real Fury) appears before Bruce as a hologram with a message. It turns out Mark is a SHIELD agent who was given orders to hunt down Bruce. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #89  FB (3-4p2) 
The same day as H3 88 (21-22). It is six days before H3 89. Bruce arrives on an aircraft carrier in the Bering Straits, where he meets up with the Fury LMD. 
NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1  FB (23p1) 
The same day as H3 89-FB (3-4). Bruce and the Nick Fury LMD stand on the deck of the aircraft carrier. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #89  FB (4p3-11) 
The same day as NA:I 1-FB (23p1). The Fury LMD tells Banner about a space station thats actually a weapon that can target and detonate nuclear weapons on earth. The LMD tells Banner that Hydra smuggled the weapon aboard a Russian space capsule and that its been storing power in space for years. Fury tells Banner that SHIELD made two previous attempts to destroy the weapon, but the last one activated a pre-emptive strike that resulted in the disaster at Chernobyl on April twenty-fifth, nineteen eighty-six. To prevent the weapon from being used by terrorists, Fury (LMD) wants Banner to go into space and destroy it as the Hulk. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #89  FB (13-14) 
The same day as H3 89-FB (3-11). The Fury LMD outlines the space mission and stresses its importance. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #89  FB (15p2-16) 
The same day as H3 89-FB (13-14). Banner agrees to the mission. 

INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #89  FB (17-18) 
The early morning after H3 89-FB (15-16). It is five days before H3 89. At zero-four hundred hours, the Fury LMD gives Hulk a dossier with the weapons layout. Hulk enters his space pod. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #89  FB (1-2) 
The same morning as H3 89-FB (17-18). It is five days before H3 89. The Hulks pod enters space. 

INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #89 
One day, six days after H3 89-FB (3-11) and five days after H3 89-FB (1-2). The space weapon finds the Hulks pod and reels the Hulk in. Hulk sees that the weapon has SHIELD markings and realizes hes been duped. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #90 
The same day as H3 89. The Hulk attacks the rogue satellite, but is defeated and pulled into the vessel. Seeing that the Hulk has failed, Fury (LMD) calls in a wave of SHIELD agents in attack fighters, but they are destroyed by the satellite. The satellite glows with energy, and the people at SHIELD suddenly realize that the satellite has transformed all of its energy to gamma radiation, as the satellite is trying to mimic the Hulk. Inside the satellite, the Hulk has fallen unconscious and become Banner again. Banner wakes up and walks around the interior of the satellite until he is confronted by a mechanical monster, which is supposedly the A.I. of the rogue satellite. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #91 (1-x) 
The same day as H3 90. The Fury LMD holds a conference with the Pentagon, in which he says that their only hope now is that the Godseye satellite overloads itself trying to absorb all of this gamma radiation. The mechanical monster inside the satellite attacks Bruce, who changes back into the Hulk. The Hulk and the Godseye monster fight each other. 
NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1  FB (23p2) 
The same day as H3 91 (1-x). The Hulk tears off the end of one of the Godseyes tentacles. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #91 (x-xx) 
The same day as NA:I 1-FB (23p2). The Godseye overloads and explodes in trying to replicate the strength and energy of the Hulk. The Hulk is picked up by a passing SHIELD spaceship, and he climbs onboard, thinking hes heading back to earth, but then the automated ship turns around and flies away from earth. A video message starts broadcasting a message from the Illuminati. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #91 (xx-xxx) ~ NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1  FB (23p3) 
The same day as H3 91 (x-xx). On the tape, Reed tells the Hulk hes being exiled into space. Iron Man and Strange appear on the tape as well. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #91 (xxx-xxxx) 
The same day as H3 91 (xx-xxx). Back on earth, the Fury LMD gives himself a pat on the back. 
NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1  FB (24) 
The same day as H3 91 (xxx-xxxx). Hulk screams as his ship zooms off into space.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 06:45 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1  FB (23p2) 
The same day as H3 91 (1-x). The Hulk tears off the end of one of the Godseyes tentacles.  


This panel actually occurs in Issue #90, not #91, (it's before the Hulk is beaten and taken inside the space station). It's a pretty close match to 4p1 of Issue 90. I just figured it was best to just put a "~" symbol between the two scenes. However, the more I look at the panels, there are just two tentacles in H2 #90, 4p1, and three tentacles in NA: I-FB (23p2). And there is a third tentacle in H2 90 (4p2), so I figure your best best is to insert NA: I (23p2) inbetween H2 90 (4p1) and H2 90 (4p2). 

Quote: 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #91 (x-xx) 
The same day as NA:I 1-FB (23p2). The Godseye overloads and explodes in trying to replicate the strength and energy of the Hulk. The Hulk is picked up by a passing SHIELD spaceship, and he climbs onboard, thinking hes heading back to earth, but then the automated ship turns around and flies away from earth. A video message starts broadcasting a message from the Illuminati. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #91 (xx-xxx) ~ NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1  FB (23p3) 
The same day as H3 91 (x-xx). On the tape, Reed tells the Hulk hes being exiled into space. Iron Man and Strange appear on the tape as well. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #91 (xxx-xxxx) 
The same day as H3 91 (xx-xxx). Back on earth, the Fury LMD gives himself a pat on the back. 
NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1  FB (24) 
The same day as H3 91 (xxx-xxxx). Hulk screams as his ship zooms off into space. 


Guh...this is worse than when I had to break down the differences between the last Thor arc, and the Beta Ray Bill miniseries...mind you, we have 3 different writers here: Bendis, Greg Pak, and Daniel Way. 

Okay...let me point out the differences between the messages in NA:I, H2 91, and H2 92, (the start of "Planet Hulk"). 

In NA:I-FB, (23p3): We see Reed, Strange, and Tony on the screen. Reed says, "I'm sorry, Bruce. But for your sake and ours, we're sending you away. It's the only way we can be sure." 

Then on pg. 24, we see the Hulk's ship blasting through space, (entering the wormhole), with the Hulk screaming "NOOOOOOOO!!!" 

In H2 91, on page 22, (the last page of the book) we see the following sequence: 

Panel 1: Hulk's ship is blasting through space 

Panel 2: Inside, Hulk stares at a monitor screen, which crackles with static, and says, "Incoming Transmission". 

Panel 3: Close up on Hulk's face, as we hear the words, "Bruce, we're so sorry, but you've left us with little choice." We don't see the Illuminati on panel. 

Panel 4: Hulk's ship is blasting through space, as Hulk screams, "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!" 

Now, H2 92: 

Panel 1: Hulk's ship is blasting through space, away from Earth. 

Panel 2: A close up of the monitor screen. It's pretty identical in imagery to the panel in NA:I, but here we do see Black Bolt in the background. 

Reed says, "Time and time again, your anger and power have threatened the entire planet. So when we learned that Fury sent you into space, we had to seize the opportunity." 

Panel 3: Close up on Hulk as he listens. Reed continues, "I have always thought of us as friends, Bruce. So I am truly, genuinely sorry. But for your sake and ours, we're sending you away. It's the only way we can be sure." 

Panel 4: Hulk is now in the middle of a temper tantrum. He rips the side of the space ship open. 

Panel 5: Hulk looks out the hole he just made, to see the wormhole coming up on the horizon. 

Panel 6: Hulk's spaceship enters the wormhole. There isn't any "NOOOOOOO!!!" in this rendition of events... 

Pg. 2: Don't know wether I need to break this page down or not. Hulk's spaceship exits the wormhole and he lands on "Planet Hulk". 

Hmmm...I'm not sure how it would be best to assemble those together...but that's how they break down, at any rate.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Apr 2006 08:17 pm    
By Somebody

Well, in Hulk #92, we switch to narration, so the "noooo" isn't a problem there. 

I'd call the sequence, from what you say, as: 

Quote: 
Hulk's ship is blasting through space, away from Earth. 

Inside, Hulk stares at a monitor screen, which crackles with static, and says, "Incoming Transmission". 

Reed, with Tony, Namor & Black Bolt in the bg, goes: 

"Bruce, we're so sorry, but you've left us with little choice." 

"Time and time again, your anger and power have threatened the entire planet. So when we learned that Fury sent you into space, we had to seize the opportunity." 

"I have always thought of us as friends, Bruce. So I am truly, genuinely sorry. But for your sake and ours, we're sending you away. It's the only way we can be sure." 

Hulk screams, "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!" and keeps screaming as he rips the side of the space ship open. 

Hulk looks out the hole he just made, to see the wormhole coming up on the horizon. 

Hulk's spaceship enters the wormhole. 


The NA:I sequence sounds completely redundant, so I'd call the chronology therefore (H91 means H2 91 page 22; H92 means H2 92 page 1): 

H91pan1 ~ H92pan1 
H91pan2 
H91pan3 
H92pan2 
H92pan3 
H91pan4 
H92pan4 
H92pan5 
H92pan6

			*	*	*	

Thread 30

Posted: 03 Apr 2006 10:48 pm    Post subject: Nextwave
By Chris McCarver

I decided to go ahead and throw up my analysis of the first two issues of Nextwave, since the opening arc ended with #2. I know a decision hasnt yet been made as far as the canonical adherence of this series, but I figure this is one of those "just in case" things. 

NEXTWAVE #1 (NWAVE 1) 

Published: March 2006 

Written by Warren Ellis, illustrated by Stuart Immonen 

Appearances: 
ANGER, GEN. DIRK (debut) 
BLOODSTONE, ELSA ELLIE 
CAPTAIN II/ (debut) 
FIN FANG FOOM 
MACHINE MAN/X-51/AARON STACK 
MELTDOWN II/TABITHA TABBY SMITH 
PHOTON/MONICA RAMBEAU 

DAY 1  EXT. ABCESS, N.D.  DAY 

The Captain (first published appearance) and Ellie Bloodstone are seated outside a caf in preparation for Nextwaves latest endeavor, namely investigating the Beyond Corporations excavation of, as Ellie puts it, a buried biological weapon of mass destruction. Among the conversation topics is the Captains former superhero name, Captain ****, which at one juncture resulted in a brutal beating by Captain America for the mere utterance of it. 

DAY 1  UNIDENTIFIED AIRSPACE  INT. H.A.T.E. AEROMARINE  DAY 

Gen. Dirk Anger (first published appearance) is intimidating the dead skin cells off a quintet of unnamed H.A.T.E. recruits. He is interrupted by an off-screen voice telling him that theyve located the Shockwave Rider, after which he heads to the Aeromarines communications room. 

DAY 1  INT. AEROMARINE COMM ROOM / INT. SHOCKWAVE RIDER  DAY 

Through the use of a device shaped like a laughably large phone receiver, Anger makes contact with Monica Rambeau and Aaron Stack, both of whom are piloting the Shockwave Rider, a H.A.T.E. aircraft stolen by Nextwave after they resigned from H.A.T.E. After Monica basically tells Anger to shove his indignation once she tells him they have Beyonds marketing plan and it clearly details their funding of H.A.T.E., Monica has Aaron kill the conversation. 

DAY 1  ABCESS, N.D.  EXT. BEYOND EXCAVATION SITE  DAY 

The Beyond contractors manage to unearth a massive green spheroid from the Earth. It turns out to be the giant eye of Fin Fang Foom, who goes completely nuts and rampages towards Abcess. 

DAY 1  ABCESS, N.D.  EXT. CAF  DAY 

Ellie and the Captain react to Fin Fang Fooms presence 

DAY 1  INT. SHOCKWAVE RIDER  DAY 

as does Monica, who tosses the arriving Tabitha Smith a flight harness so she can go fight the big scary dragon-thing. 

DAY 1  EXT. ABCESS, N.D.  DAY 

Ellie and the Captain set off to do their bit of the operation, but are stymied when a jeep full of Beyond Human Resources agents runs Ellie over. Ellie sends the Captain flying off to aid Tabby, while Ellie makes very short work of her assailants. Ellie calls Aaron on her cell and briefs them that Beyond knows of their presence. 

DAY 1  INT. SHOCKWAVE RIDER  DAY 

We see the other side of that conversation as Monica goes on one of her when I was an Avenger tirades in response to Ellies allusion that she killed her attackers, leading us to a 

FLASHBACK  MONICAS HOME  DAY 

We see Monica as a young girl, perched on her window sill, annoyed by a very noisy dog. In an action that seemingly defies continuity, Monica idly sends out a wave of energy that flash-fries the dog where he stands. Monica appears pleased. END FLASHBACK. 

DAY 1  INT. SHOCKWAVE RIDER / EXT. ABCESS, N.D.  DAY 

Ellie briefs Monica on the fact that her attackers were not human, a fact Aaron confirms and expands upon with the explanation that theyre basically bio-engineered drones. Monica seemed satisfied and sends Tabby out the hatch to deal with Fin Fang Foom. Fin Fang Foom immediately notices Tabby, who is taken aback by the fact hes wearing underpants. 

END ISSUE. 

CHRONOLOGY NOTES: 

This issue appears to take place in 616-verse Present Day, though theres minimal factual evidence to back that up. X-MEN: THE 198 FILES lists Tabithas affiliation with H.A.T.E. and Nextwave, but as discussed on the Marvel Universe forum here, that inclusions somewhat in question in lieu of the lack of Nextwave reference in Tabithas OHOTMU A-Z entry. Should it be confirmed as canon one way or another, this places NWAVE 1 post-HOM 8 at the very earliest, possibly after DECIMATION: THE DAY AFTER. 

Obviously, the biggest issue facing analysis of this issue is the Monica flashback. As weve seen previously in ASM@ 16, Monica didnt get her powers until adulthood, and theres no mention of her ever having powers beforehand. While this may immediately seem like a blatant violation of continuity, the possibility that Monica had a rudimentary form of her current abilities at a young age is entirely possible. Apart from flashbacks in ASM@ 16 and M/FAN 57/2, not much of her life prior to becoming Captain Marvel has ever been depicted. The possibility is also alluded to in the letter column in NWAVE2: 

Excerpt from a letter by reader Albert Alexander: 

Quote: 
Didnt Monica Rambeau get her powers when she was a teenager? (In her 20s at the earliest, but I digress. C.M.) 


And the editors answer: 

Quote: 
Very good question, Albert, but all of Monicas secrets havent been revealed. Do you know for a fact that she DIDNT have powers before she came in contact with the extradimensional energy? 


***** 

NEXTWAVE #2 (NWAVE 2) 

Published: April, 2006. 

Written by Warren Ellis, illustrated by Stuart Immonen. 

Appearances: 
ANGER, GEN. DIRK 
CAPTAIN II/ 
FATHER BLOOD DRENCH ROBO CRUSH 
FIN FANG FOOM 
MACHINE MAN/X-51/AARON STACK 
MELTDOWN II/TABITHA TABBY SMITH 
PHOTON/MONICA RAMBEAU 

DAY 1  EXT. ABCESS, N.D.  DAY 

Picking up mere seconds after the end of NWAVE 1, Tabby begins strafing Fin Fang Foom after he snacks on some citizens of Abcess. Tabby is horrified when Fin Fang Foom catches her and declares his intention to put (her) in his pants, but is rescued by the Captain, although the rescue sends them flying through a building window. They emerge still relatively healthy and rejoin the battle. 

DAY 1  INT. H.A.T.E. AEROMARINE  DAY 

Dirk Anger ruminates on why girls should never be allowed into H.A.T.E. (they have soft bits) as a nurse dumps a sack of baby chicks into a Cuisinart and feeds it to Anger through an I.V. tube. 

DAY 1  INT. SHOCKWAVE RIDER  DAY 

Aaron briefs Monica on the battles progress, prompting her to join the fray herself, after telling Aaron to put the Rider in a parking orbit. 

DAY 1  EXT. ABCESS  DAY 

Monicas attack on Fin Fang Foom proves futile, and she grabs Ellie in mid-flight to haul her to a rooftop where the complete membership of Nextwave consider their next move. Monica comes up with the idea of dropping Aaron down Fin Fang Fooms throat, surmising damaging him on the inside stands a better shot that external attack. Before they can act, the Captain notices more of Beyonds Human Resources agents approaching. Ellie proceeds to shoot out both of Fin Fang Fooms eyes, giving Aaron a clear passage into the creatures mouth, while Monica, Tabby, Ellie, and the Captain deal out the pain on their attackers. 

DAY 1  INT. FIN FANG FOOM (YEAH, I TYPED IT)  DAY 

Aaron makes his way down Fin Fang Fooms digestive tract as we proceed headlong into another 

FLASHBACK  UNDETERMINED LOCATION AND TIME  DAY 

In a small house, an elderly woman is having a nice cup of tea with a priest that is horribly obvious as being another of Abel Stacks X-series androids, who is operating under the alias of Father Blood Drench Robo Crush. The womans complete lack of fear in the face of Father Blood Drench Robo Crush causes him to cry tears of machine oil. END FLASHBACK. 

DAY 1  INT. FIN FANG FOOM / EXT. ABCESS, N.D.  DAY 

Aaron lands in the pit of Fin Fang Fooms stomach and grows an insane number of sharp, stabby objects. Meanwhile, Fin Fang Foom is lashing wildly at everything within reach after being blinded by Ellie. Hes just about to stomp all over Nextwave when Aaron begins shredding away at his insides. Fin Fang Foom immediately starts feeling ill, finally to the point that actually pukes up his own heart. He then falls dead, allowing Aaron to travel out the other end of the beast to safety. Following that, the Nextwave team board the Shockwave Rider and depart on their next mission. 

END ISSUE. 

CHRONOLOGY NOTES: 

Further evidence of this series placement amongst Marvel continuity, its questionable adherence to it notwithstanding, comes in a line of dialogue from Ellie (presumably) about Monicas Avengers training including that and beware of spooky chicks who think theyve been made pregnant by robots? This places NWAVE 1 and 2 at the earliest after A 503. 

The timespan of this story would appear to be somewhere in the neighborhood of a few hours, 90 minutes at the least. Tabithas comment that she hadnt called anyone for, like, an hour, assuming its reasonably accurate, would mean roughly an hour had passed between the last time she got off the phone to fly out and attack Fin Fang Foom in NWAVE 1 (p. 13, panel 5) and shortly after Fin Fang Fooms messy death in NWAVE 2 (p. 23, panel 1). 

***** 

RECOMMENDED CHRONOLOGY ADDITIONS: 

ANGER, GEN. DIRK (new character) 
NWAVE 1 
NWAVE 2 

BLOODSTONE, ELSA 
[] 
NWAVE 1 
NWAVE 2 

CAPTAIN II/ (new character) 
NWAVE 1 
NWAVE 2 

CAPTAIN MARVEL II/MONICA RAMBEAU 
NWAVE 1-FB 
[] 

FATHER BLOOD DRENCH ROBO CRUSH (new character) 
NWAVE 2-FB 

MACHINE MAN/X-51 
[] 
NWAVE 1 
NWAVE 2 

MELTDOWN II/TABITHA SMITH 
[] 
NWAVE 1 
NWAVE 2 

PHOTON/MONICA RAMBEAU 
[] 
NWAVE 1 
NWAVE 2 


I'll add to this as more story arcs are concluded.
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 04 Apr 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: Thing #1
By SKleefeld
Director

Yeah, it wasn't requested, but I thought I'd try to help drum up support for the book... 

Thing #1 

p. 1 -- A basic summary of Ben Grimm's history from Yancy Street youth to the "Kevin Bacon" of superheroes. 

pp. 2-7 -- Thing and Black Goliath battle Cauldron. Ben easily defeats him but starts hearing complaints from bystanders about whiplash. Goliath, too, tries to take advantage of his cash situation by asking from a grant to help fund his research. Ben gets in his Hummer limo and drives off. Cauldron's appearance here is naturally before his cameo in She-Hulk v2 #6. Appearances by Thing, Black Goliath, Cauldron, Bunny (Ben's chauffeur) 

p. 8 -- Alicia Masters reads about Ben's recent involvement with actress Carlotta LaRosa. He new boyfriend Arlo North brings in banana pancakes. Appearances by: Alicia Masters, Arlo North 

pp. 9-11 panel 3 -- Various heroes discuss Ben's situation. Peter and MJ do this over breakfast, Wonder Man and Warbird fly past Stark Tower and the Baxter Bldg., Torch and Mr. Fantastic talk in the FF's Hangar Bay. Appearances by: Peter Parker, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Edwin Jarivs, Wonder Man, Warbird, Human Torch II, Mr. Fantastic 

pp. 9 panel 4-11 panel 3 -- Ben wakes up in his Atlas Towers suite and kisses Carlotta, who's on the phone with Milan Ramada. Appearances by: Thing, Carlotta Rose, Milan Ramada 

pp. 11 panel 4-12 -- Milan meets a holgramtic entity at a seemingly abandoned theme park. Cresent moon seen. Appearances by: Milan Ramada, Arcade (BTS) 

pp. 13-19 -- Ben and Carlotta attend a party. It's presumed that this is the same party mentioned on page 10. If so, it occurs on a Saturday after 8:00 pm. Brynocki pops out from one of the statues and renders the entire crowd unconscious. Tony Stark appears here without anyone knowing his role as Iron Man. Though Tony gives Frank a hard time, Kyle comes to the verbal rescue, saying "I'm a sucker for second chances. In fact, you could say they've made me who I am today." Appearances by: Thing, Carlotta LaRosa, Bunny, Irma Roberts, Ms. Locke, Mr. Chambers, Frank Schlichting, Tony Stark, Kyle Richmond, Brynocki, Vin Disiel, Jennifer Garner, Danny DiVito, Vigo Mortinson, Tyra Banks (I think), Ben Affleck (????) 

pp. 20-21 -- The crowd wake up some undetermined amount of time later in front of Arcade's Murderland. Appearances by: Thing, Constrictor, Nighthawk, Arcade, Brynocki. (Presumably everyone else that shows up in pp. 13-19 is here as well.) 

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 03 Apr 2006 11:34 pm    Post subject: My Apologies For Books Of Doom
By stavesacre79

Hey Everyone. I'm really really sorry. I know that I said that I would do that analysis of Books of Doom, but some personal things have come up and I can't afford to buy comics anymore, so I won't be able to do the anlysis.  I hope you can forgive me and find a replacement to do the analysis. Again, I'm very sorry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2006 05:57 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That's okay, stavesacre79. We totally understand.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2006 11:19 am  
By jephyork
Director

Good luck with your "personal things" ... I hope everything goes well for you. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2006 08:58 pm    
By lkseitz

Ooo, I've been there. I hope things look up for you soon.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 14 Feb 2006 10:26 pm    Post subject: Son of a Genius: Everybody Loves Franklin
By SKleefeld
Director

"Christmas Time Warp!" 

It's the night before X-Mas, and Franklin realizes that he hasn't gotten presents for anyone yet. He "borrows" his dad's time platform and starts picking up gifts from throughout history: Excaliber from the hands of Arthur, an autographed one-dollar bill, Billy the Kid's hat, a "fancy ballerina statue" from Degas, something from ancient Egypt, and some gift that he gets from a future version of himself. (Future Franklin: "I've given this gift to Dad five times already...") Then he drops back into the Jurassic period, runs into a T-Rex who steps on the gifts, and HERBIE saves him by bringing him back to the present. Franklin apologizes the next morning for not having any gifts. 

"My Dinner with Doom(bots)" 

HERBIE is babysitting Franklin, who's managed to sneak away to his Dad's lab instead of having dinner. He inadvertantly releases several Doombots who start blasting everything in sight. Franklin uses some of the other gizmos from around the lab to defeat the Doombots, and the final one is a computer override that allows Franklin to control the final Doombot. He has the Doombot start cleaning up as Mom and Dad come home. Franklin, of course, acts innocently as HERBIE watches over the cleaning Doombots. 

"Frankie, My Dear" 
Franklin comes home from school and complains to Sue that he has to do a school project with a partner... Katie Powers. Sue takes off "to go meet Franklin's dad in the Negative Zone" and Katie makes goo-goo eyes at Franklin. When HERBIE shows up, though, she realizes he'd make a great science project and Franklin suggests that there's even cooler stuff in his dad's lab. Not surprisingly, havoc ensues which eventually leads to Katie trying to fly the Fantasticar around the city to save Franklin from falling to his death. She catches him with HERBIE clinging behind the Fantasticar, and we close by seeing Franklin making goo-goo eyes at Katie as she flies them off into the sunset. 

"Now You See Me" 

Franklin sneaks into his mom's closet, where he finds HERBIE guarding some presents. HERBIE: "These presents are not to be touched until your birthday, this weekend." Franklin, though, has an invso-ray gun to get a peek inside. Unfortunately, he has the gun pointed backwards and makes himself (and the gun) invisible. In a panic he fires a few mores times at random. He trips over an invisible stool and loses the gun. HERBIE flies to the kitchen (past Sue) to grab a bag of powdered sugar, with which he covers the room so the two can see the gun. (They were out of flour.) They re-inviso-ray everything and clean up the powered sugar. Sue pokes her head in as Franklin tries to suggest that he wasn't looking for his presents. Sue responds "What presents?" as she makes them invisible, confusing poor Franklin.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Feb 2006 07:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Sean. Hmm, Katie Power being Franklin's classmate seems to be a throwback to an earlier era. In the present, is Franklin still attending the Stern Academy (from circa FF3 51)?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Feb 2006 08:08 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Thanks, Sean. Hmm, Katie Power being Franklin's classmate seems to be a throwback to an earlier era. In the present, is Franklin still attending the Stern Academy (from circa FF3 51)? 
<<<

Franklin's schooling hasn't been directly addressed at all since then, but I presume that, once he's taken into custody by the state, they wouldn't keep sending him to a private school.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Feb 2006 10:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I guess what I'm speculating is the possibility that Franklin may have switched schools and become a classmate of Katie Power BTS in the recent past. That could place that one story closer to the present, but still before HERBIE gets legs in FOUR 19.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Feb 2006 10:32 pm  
By SKleefeld
Director

Well, it's certainly plausible for Franklin to have switched schools -- he's done so before on at least a couple of occassions I can think of offhand. And I'm sure Katie's switched schools at least a couple of times, since the Power family has moved multiple times. 

But where are the Powers living these days? Last I checked, they were in the Seattle area -- did they move back to NYC recently?

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 11:22 am    
By jephyork
Director

They popped up to fight Hydra in Manhattan in TB2 #6, so they might live in NYC again. 

On the other hand, Julie Power can teleport now. She might have popped from L.A. to Seattle, grabbed the team, and popped them all to NYC... 

So, again, it's unclear. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 09:43 pm    
By Somebody

Or they could have hopped in Friday. 

I'm still inclined to discount that very, very brief cameo though...

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2006 11:41 pm    
By jephyork
Director

"Discount" meaning what? Ignore? Leave out of the MCP? 

Why? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2006 12:36 pm    
By PaxHouse

Probably due to the fact that the Pack were wearing the 'current' costumes recently seen within the "All Ages" POWER PACK Mini-series[including the recent X-MEN/- and upcoming one with the Avengers  ] (of course it can easily could be blamed by either Genis/Captain Marvel/Photon and/or by Wanda AKA the Scarlet Witch)..... 

Come to think of it, Katie AKA Energizer is wearing the 'same costume' within GLA #2......  

So just think of the costumes seen within those particular as "Elsewhere Mismanagement" and simply update Julie/Lightspeed and Katie's/Energizer appropriately...{If it hasn't been done already....  }.....
_________________
PaxHouse.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2006 01:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, if so, that's a horrible reason for leaving an appearance out of the MCP. We don't know why they're wearing these costumes, we don't know why they're attending this school, we don't why they're living in this city, and we don't need to know. We only need to know that they are. 

The answers to these questions can provide clues to placement, but the absence of answers, or the seeming contradictions of answers, is not evidence that Power Pack doesn't appear, and doesn't qualify for a listing. 


watching: live from

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 08:09 am    Post subject: Runaways vol 2 #1-6
By JD

RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #1-6 
Writer : Brian K Vaughan 
Penciller : Adrian Alphona 
Published from February to July 2005 

Beware, HUGE SPOILERS. 

Quick recap of the premise : 
The Runaways were six teenagers who discovered that their parents were a supervillain group called the Pride. Their fight against the Pride was described in the first volume of the series, at the end of which the Pride were killed by the Gibborim, their "demonic" masters. Another casuality was Alex Wilder, the de facto team leader of the Runaways, who was actually a mole working for the Pride. The Runaways were then placed into foster care by the Avengers, but they soon ran away again to fight crime again. 
In the second volume, they are fighting various villains trying to fill the power vacuum left in Los Angeles now that the Pride has been taken down. 
Abilities of the Runaways : Nico is a sorceress that can use the Staff of One to cast one-use-only spells ; Gert has an empathic link with her pet dinosaur Old Lace ; Karolina is an alien with light-based powers ; Molly is a super-strong mutant ; Chase does not have actual powers but drives their ship the Leapfrog ; Alex used to be a super-strategist. 

I don't see Runaways in the Key, so I'll use RUN and RUN2 for the character chronologies (these keys look available). 

Appearances : 
- The Runaways (Nico Minoru/Sister Grimm, Gertrude Yorkes/Arsenic 2, Karolina Dean/Lucy in the Sky, Molly Hayes/Bruiser, Chase Stein/Talkback, Old Lace) 
- A future version of Gertrude Yorkes/Arsenic 2, under the code-name of Heroine 
- Excelsior (Michiko Musashi/Turbo 2 (A), Phil Urich, Chris Powell/Darkhawk, Julie Power/Lightspeed, Johnny Gallo/Ricochet 3, "Chamber" 2, Rick Jones) 
- Victor Mancha/Victorious, his friend Jorge, Marianella Mancha, Ultron, a doombot 
- The Wrecking Crew (Wrecker, Piledriver, Thunderball, Bulldozer, Excavator) 

The whole arc covers two days. 


RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #1 
Some time after RUNAWAYS vol. 1 #18 
Los Angeles, one evening (no moon phase visible) 

pp1-2 : Victor and Jorge hear about a "masked felony" on Victor's police scanner. They can't go and see it because Victor's mother has set a curfew (is that a BTS for her ?). 
pp3-12 : The Runaways stop a robbery by the Wrecking Crew (who now include Piledriver's son, Ricky/Excavator). They leave them unconscious for the cops to pick up. 
pp13-17 : First Excelsior meeting (with all members except Rick Jones), with an explanation of the concept : a support group for former teen superheroes. Rick Jones phones anonymously to propose them $1 million to put the Runaways out of the circulation. 
pp 18-24 : The Runaways are back at the La Brea Tar Pits Museum, which is their current hideout (it's an old Pride safehouse). A future Gert comes back from 20 years in the future to warn them about Victor (who will become a major supervillain and wipe out all the heroes). Future Gert then dies. 

Notes : 
Wonder Man is mentionned several times as the only superhero in Los Angeles (a running joke being that "he doesn't count"). 
Future Gert states that "it must be 2005" because Karolina "is still here" (Karolina did leave Earth a few issues later, in RUNAWAYS vol2 #8). 
The actual span of time between this issue and Runaways vol. 1 #18 is not stated. There is still a power vacuum after the taking out of the Pride in Runaways vol. 1 #17. 
Chase mentions the Runaways beating up the Flag-Smasher and Batroc the Leaper in the last two weeks. 
The Runaways don't seem to use their codenames anymore, but I've included them anyway. 
Future Gert mentions that Victor's father is "the greatest evil in the universe". We learn in #5 that it's Ultron. 
The "Chamber" in Excelsior is an impostor, as revealed in #6. 
The humiliating defeat of the Wrecking Crew in the hands of the Runaways is mentionned in NEW AVENGERS #8, which would place this whole arc before NEW AVENGERS #1 (since the Wrecker was one of the Raft escapees, wasn't he ?). 


RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #2 
Continued from last issue, the following day 

pp1-4: Excelsior have another meeting at dawn, and look at some footage of the Runaways in action (Chase is BTS in those "flashbacks", we only see their ship the Leapfrog). They decide to become superheroes again to take the Runaways down. 
pp5-10: Just after the last issue, Nico uses a "flashback" spell to see the memories of the dead Future Gert, which confirm that Victor is to become very nasty indeed. The Runaways decide to go after Victor. 
pp11-22: Daytime. The Runaways confront Victor with very little subtlety, and he instinctly reacts by displaying magnetic powers. With some difficulty, they knock him out. Warned by Rick Jones, Excelsior (minus Phil Urich, who is the team's coordinator) arrive to confront the Runaways. 

Notes : 
Nico mentions that she tried reviving Alex just after RUNAWAYS vol1 #17. She says it didn't work. Anyway, she can't do it for Future Gert, since her spells are one-use-only. (This is a very subtle piece of foreshadowing I didn't catch until now...) 
Victor and his friend Jorge talk a bit about the death of Hawkeye, placing this after AVENGERS #502. 
Victor first thinks that the Runaways are the Young Avengers he's vaguely heard about, so this happens after YOUNG AVENGERS #1. 
Victor is to be transferred to another school because his current one is installing metal detectors. This is because he's half-robot, and his mother doesn't want him to be detected. 

RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #3 
Continued from last issue, the same day 

pp1-19 : Two big fight scenes between the Runaways and Excelsior. The Runaways manage to get away with the help of their abductee (and also because Darkhawk freaks out and attacks Turbo). Meanwhile, Victor's mom shows up at his school to learn what has happened from Jorge. 
pp20-22 : Sunset. The Runaways head to their base. Victor's mother phones his father, who tells her he's coming. 

RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #4 
Continued from last issue, the same day at night 

The Runaways finally arrive at their hideout. Nico neutralises Victor's powers. Meanwhile, Excelsior go to Phil Urich, who receives a phone call by Rick Jones. Meanwhile, Victor's mother tries to call him but is attacked by a doombot. Meanwhile, as the Runaways look into their supervillain database to try to figure out who Victor's father is, Victor takes Gert hostage and call his mother. It's the doombot who answers. 

RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #5 
Continued from last issue, the same night 

The doombot tells Victor to meet him in a warehouse. He and the Runaways decide to fight the doombot together. Meanwhile, Excelsior discover Rick Jones' gift : a ship for Phil to drive. Rick is coming by the next plane. 
Then, Victor arrives to the warehouse pretending to have disposed of the Runaways and to pledge allegiance to the doombot (whom he believes to be his father). Actually, the Runaways were trying to make Victor's mother escape, but the doombot sees through it. Big fight scene, the doombot is taken out by Victor, who discovers it's not the real Doom. Ultron steps out the shadow, kills Victor's mother, and takes over Victor's consciousness, who turns against the few Runaways still standing. 

RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #6 
Continued from last issue, the same night 

Ultron narrates Victor's creation. When he sees that Ultron has killed his mother, Victor rebels and attacks Ultron. He teams up with the Runaways, but it's not enough. Karolina shoots a big beam of light through the roof, which alerts Excelsior. After a big fight scene, Darkhawk takes down Ultron. "Chamber" helps the Runaways slipping away. Excelsior meets with their sponsor Rick Jones and decide to become LA's superhero team full time. Victor joins the Runaways on probation. 
In a one-page subplot, we learn that "Chamber" is an imposter ; he meets with three other teenage members of a "new Pride". We don't see their faces, but there are hints that "Chamber" may be Alex (he's a black guy, at least). He uses "the Minorus' old chameleon glamour" to disguise himself, which seem to be an artefact scavanged from Nico's parents' home. 

Flashbacks : 
- Hank Pym builds Ultron 
- The WCA (Hank Pym, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Wonder Man) destroy Ultron. AWC 89-91 ? 
- "Years later", Marianella Mancha finds Ultron's head in a scrap yard, then helps him reconstruct himself as well as creating Victor 
- Ultron learns Victor's been captured by the Runaways (retreads the scene in #3) 
- Ultron activates a doombot as a last attempt to try and fool Victor about his origin. 

Notes : 
It is mentionned that Captain America warned Rick Jones that the Runaways were back in action. Not enough to merit a BTS credit, is it ? 
Victor is actually very young, he can't have been around for more than a few years (when we see Ultron constructing him in a flashback, he does not look much younger than now). However, he needs to have been attending high school with Jorge long enough for the two of them to become friends. 


Character chronologies : 

NICO MINORU/SISTER GRIMM 
... 
RUN 18 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

GERTRUDE YORKES/ARSENIC 2 
... 
RUN 18 
RUN2 2-FB 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

KAROLINA DEAN/LUCY IN THE SKY 
... 
RUN 18 
RUN2 2-FB 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

MOLLY HAYES/BRUISER 
... 
RUN 18 
RUN2 2-FB 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

CHASE STEIN/TALKBACK 
... 
RUN 18 
RUN2 2-FB-BTS 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

OLD LACE 
... 
RUN 18 
RUN2 2-FB 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

MICHIKO MUSASHI/TURBO 2 (A) 
... 
MAXSEC 1-FB (?) 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

PHIL URICH 
... 
ASM 433 (?) 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

CHRIS POWELL/DARKHAWK 
... 
A3 51-FB (?) 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 


JULIE POWER/LIGHTSPEED 
... 
PP:PP 4 (?) 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

JOHNNY GALLO/RICOCHET 3 
... 
NW2 1 (?) 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

"CHAMBER" 2 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

RICK JONES 
... 
CM6 25 (?) 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

VICTOR MANCHA/VICTORIOUS 
RUN2 6-FB 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

JORGE 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 

MARIANELLA MANCHA 
RUN2 6-FB 
RUN2 1-BTS 
RUN2 2-BTS 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 6-FB-BTS 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 (well, her corpse) 

ULTRON 
... 
(?) 
RUN2 6-FB 
(?) 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 6-FB 
RUN2 4-BTS 
RUN2 5 
RUN2 6 

WRECKER 
... 
RUN2 1 
(...) 
A4 7 
A4 8 

PILEDRIVER 
... 
RUN2 1 

THUNDERBALL 
... 
RUN2 1 

BULLDOZER 
... 
RUN2 1 

EXCAVATOR 
RUN2 1

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 10:28 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Flashbacks : 
- Hank Pym builds Ultron 
- The WCA (Hank Pym, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Wonder Man) destroy Ultron. AWC 89-91 ? 
- "Years later", Marianella Mancha finds Ultron's head in a scrap yard, then helps him reconstruct himself as well as creating Victor 
- Ultron learns Victor's been captured by the Runaways (retreads the scene in #3) 
- Ultron activates a doombot as a last attempt to try and fool Victor about his origin.  
<<<

If any of these flashbacks contain new material, (which I believe some of them do) then we'll need to have page/panel ranges for them. Thanks for the quick review, JD!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Dec 2005 10:20 am    
By JD

OK, here it goes : 

- Hank Pym builds Ultron : RUN2 #6 page 3 panel 2. I very much doubt that this covers new material, since it is a very generic shot. This form of Ultron is very different from his current look, so I suppose it is the first version Pym built. 

- The WCA (Hank Pym, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Wonder Man) destroy Ultron : RUN2 #6 page 3 panel 3. 
I suppose this is a flashback to AWC 89-91. It's a generic shot of the four cited WC Avengers facing Ultron. Again, probably not new material. 

- "Years later", Marianella Mancha finds Ultron's head in a scrap yard (RUN2 #6 page 4 and page 5 panel 1), then helps him reconstruct himself (narration) as well as creating Victor (RUN2 #6 page 5 panel 3) 
Obviously new material. Good luck trying to place this in Ultron's chronology ! 
Note that the narration hints that Ultron has given up directly facing the Avengers now that he's started designing Victor. Apparently, he's "patiently waited" all this time in "a modest room [...] far off the grid" (payed for by Victor's mother's third job). 

- Ultron learns Victor's been captured by the Runaways : RUN2 #6 page 6 panel 4 (retreads the scene in #3, no new information) 

- Ultron activates a doombot as a last attempt to try and fool Victor about his origin : RUN2 #6 page 6 panel 4. 
New material, fits between RUN2 #3 and RUN2 #4. Victor's mother deserves a BTS status, as Ultron states that he designed this plan with her (reluctant) help. 

Hope this helps 

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 09:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

How does Ultron's appearance here square with his appearance in MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2005 #1/2? In that story, we see that, after a defeat be the Avengers, Ultrons programming uploads into an unfinished prototype and seeks out a mind capable of finishing it. Ultron finds Virgie Hanlon and uses his encephalo-overrider to control Virgies psyche. 

M/HOL05 1/2 must occur sometime after RUNAWAYS v2 #6. Is Ultron's programming uploading into multiple bodies?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 09:30 am    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
- The WCA (Hank Pym, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Wonder Man) destroy Ultron : RUN2 #6 page 3 panel 3. 
I suppose this is a flashback to AWC 89-91. It's a generic shot of the four cited WC Avengers facing Ultron. Again, probably not new material. 
<<<

Nope, it's an untold story with an unknown Ultron model (the Handbook speculates it's a spare constructed by Ultron-10, making it a sort of Ultron-11b), sometime between the U-11/12 fight and U-13 turning up. Iron Man had long dumped the red'n'silver armour by the AWC issues. 

It's certainly of a different lineage than Ultron-13 onward, and predates U-13. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
M/HOL05 1/2 must occur sometime after RUNAWAYS v2 #6. Is Ultron's programming uploading into multiple bodies? 
<<<

Standard Operating procedure these days for the metal maniac  

This is certainly NOT the Ultron who fought the Avengers in Av3 or the later AWC issues (I'm not exactly certain how the Anti-Vision infected "drunk" Ultron fits into things)

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2005 10:28 am    
By JD

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Nope, it's an untold story 
<<<

OK. I know next to nothing about AWC, so you're a better judge than me on this. 

Er, it looks like Ultron's timeline largely diverges there. Shouldn't we separate him into two entries ? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
M/HOL05 1/2 must occur sometime after RUNAWAYS v2 #6. 
<<<

Yes, of course. A4 #8 establishes that RUN2 #1-6 can safely be put before A4 #1. Since M/HOL05 1/2 features the New Avengers, it's a no-brainer...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 08:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Of course, since Ultron's conscious is basically just a computer programme, there's no reason why there has to be only one of him. He can copy his programming as many times as he wants. By this stage, I'm not entirely convinced that all Ultron appearances need to be attributed to a single character at all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 06:40 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
(I'm not exactly certain how the Anti-Vision infected "drunk" Ultron fits into things) 
<<<

He was reprogrammed by the Ultron who appeared in Ultron Unlimited. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2006 12:24 pm    
By PaxHouse

It's been quite a loooong time since my last posting..... 

Anyway, here're certain corrections, in regards to Excelsior's Members appearances..... 

RICK JONES 
---- 
CM V6 #25 
RUN2 #1.... 

JOHNNY GALLO/RICOCHET 2 
---- 
NW2 1 (with other Slingers) 
RUN2 1....... 

JULIE POWER/LIGHTSPEED/STARSTREAK 
---- 
PP:PP 4 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #6 (presumably 'T-Bolts #87') 
RUN2 1...... 

MICHIKO(MICKEY) MUSASHI/TURBO 2 
---- 
MAXSEC 1-FB 
SHE-HULK VOL 1 #5 
RUN2 1 

Hopefully, this will make the Updating easier.....
_________________
PaxHouse.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Apr 2006 04:14 am    
By Tragiko

Possible correction for Rick Jones: 

RICK JONES 
------------------ 
CM V6 #25 
A502-503 
RUN2 #1 
------------------
_________________
[TRAGIX] AvengersForever.net Webmaster

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 07 Apr 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Thing #2
By SKleefeld
Director

p. 1 -- The site of the party seen the previous issue. The police have called in Alicia Masters because they've found some of her statues (forgeries, actually) at the scene. The detective notes that the party was "last night." Appearances by: Alicia Masters, Arlo North, unnamed police officers 

pp. 2 - 15 panel 2 -- On Arcade's island, Arcade and Brynocki give everyone the "rules" of their little game: get to the other side of the island and no leaving. To get things rolling, they set off land mines on the beach, sending everyone rushing into the theme park itself where they're attacked by ferris wheels, roller coasters, and robotic toy soldiers. Constrictor makes a break for it and Nighthawk follows in pursuit. Arcade, Mr. Chamber, and Ms. Locke watch via TV from an undisclosed location and Brynocki seems to be on scene doing some "reporting." Carlotta LaRosa distracts everyone while Tony Stark slips away into the heart of the Arcade's machinery. Appearances by: Thing, Carlotta LaRosa, Tony Stark, Brynocki, Arcade, Ms. Locke, Mr. Chambers, Nighthawk, Constrictor, Jennifer Garner, Vin Diesel, and presumably a BTS for everyone else who was at the party. 

pp. 15 panel 3 - 16 panel 3 -- Nighthawk catches up with Constrictor and they realize that they're surrounded by gun-toting squirrels, deer, owls and trees. Appearances by: Nighthawk, Constictor 

pp. 16 panel 4 - 18 -- The main group of people enter the "Marvel Island of Misadventure." Robotic duplicates of Nova, Captain America, Wolverine, Hulk, and the Human Torch attack the Thing as Arcade continues to watch. Appearances by: Thing, Arcade, Mr. Chambers 

pp. 19-21 -- Stark, crawling through the access tunnels below, discovers an Iron Man robot. He reprograms it and sends it clear of the island's dampening field to try to send a message to the Avengers. Arcade blows it out of the sky as Ben pummels the robotic Hulk into oblivion. Appearances by: Tony Stark, Thing, Arcade, Carlotta LaRosa 

p. 22 -- As Ben tries to catch his breath, a small army of robotic Hulks stride towards him through the rubble. Appearances by: Thing

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 12:54 pm    Post subject: Runaways vol 2 #7-8
By JD

RUNAWAYS vol. 2 #7-8 
Writer : Brian K Vaughan 
Penciller : Takeshi Miyazawa 
Published in August and September 2005 


CAST : 
- The Runaways (Nico Minoru/Sister Grimm, Gertrude Yorkes/Arsenic 2, Karolina Dean/Lucy in the Sky, Molly Hayes/Bruiser, Chase Stein/Talkback, Victor Mancha/Victorious, Old Lace) 
- Swarm/Fritz von Meyer (the nazi made of bees) 
- Xavin 
- Excelsior is mentionned in #7 as handling the supervillains the Runaways defeat, and the Runaways are fleeing from them. I think this means a BTS for the lot of them in that issue (Michiko Musashi/Turbo 2 (A), Phil Urich, Chris Powell/Darkhawk, Julie Power/Lightspeed, Johnny Gallo/Ricochet 3, "Chamber" 2, Rick Jones) 

The whole arc happens in one day. 


RUNAWAYS vol 2 #7 

The Runaways fight Swarm and defeat him, leaving the scene before Excelsior comes (off-panel). They then split into groups of two and go shopping. One hour later, as they are coming back, Karolina tries to kiss Nico, but she's not interested. Suddenly, a spaceship lands near them, and Xavin comes out from it. Nico is hurt by the ricochets of Karolina's defense, and Xavin declares he's Karolina's fianc (as per their parents' arrangment). 

RUNAWAYS vol 2 #8 

Xavin explains he's a Super-Skrull (in training) from Tarnax VII. The other Runaways arrive and attack him (it takes the Leapfrog landing on him to knock him out). They leave, but Xavin pursues them and forces them to listen to him. 

Basically, 15 years ago, Xavin's father led a Skrull attack force against Earth. He was stopped by the Deans, who offered him a better prospect : the coordinates of their home planet Majesdane (from where they were exiled). Cue in a bloody war between Tarnax VII and Majesdane that nearly wiped out both parties. Xavin's plan is to marry Karolina so that they can unite both peoples and stop the stupid war. Karolina accepts (mainly to atone for her parents' actions) when Xavin helpfully changes gender. They both leave Earth (there is a Skrull transmission tower disguised as a LA landmark that will allow short transmissions in the future). 


Notes : 

- It's been one month since RUN2 #6, when Victor joined the Runaways "on probation". 
- The Runaways fought the Tarentula "three weeks ago". 
- There's no actual flashback to the events mentionned in RUN2 #8. It's just narration by Xavin. 
- The moon is not shown, even though most of the story happens at night. 
- Victor states that is was "born" only "a few years ago", which may or may not help to place the Ultron flashbacks in RUN2 #6. 
- The Leapfrog reveals it's sentient, with its first speaking part in RUN2 #8. Should we create a listing for it ? I can track back its appearances if you want (next week). 


Placement : 

Okay, here I leap a bit forward and cite evidence from RUN2 #9, because I'm not sure it works. 

- RUN2 #1-6 happen just a bit after YOUNG AVENGERS #1 but before A4 #1 
- RUN2 #7-8 happen one month later 
- RUN2 #9 happens at least one month later (it can be more, as the one-month delay is for the last transmission by Karolina, not necessarily the one shown in #8). The guest appearances by the New Avengers there are before they go public (Cloak has heard rumors of this line-up, but that's it). From sollicitations, it should be before A4 #15. 

So we have at least two months between YOUNG AVENGERS #1 and A4 #15 (and by extension, House of M). Does this work ?

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 03:38 pm    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
RUN2 #1-6 happen just a bit after YOUNG AVENGERS #1 but before A4 #1 
<<<

Why is that, ooc (I don't have the Runaways arc to hand) 


JD wrote: 
>>>
So we have at least two months between YOUNG AVENGERS #1 and A4 #15 (and by extension, House of M). Does this work ? 
<<<

I think so. There's a big gap ("a few weeks") between pages of YA6 (between the end of the Kang fight and Kate & Cassie talking the three guys into reforming/Kate getting them new costumes & a HQ), and NA1 falls in that gap (YA7 is only a day or two after the end of YA6). So you only need three weeks or so between NA1 & HoM #1.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 04:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JD, thanks for the analysis! 

I'm a little confused by the references to "one month." Is RUN2 7 supposed to occur exactly one month after RUN2 6 or just sometime during the month after RUN2 6? And why does there need to be a month or more between RUN2 8 and 9? Something about a transmission? 

And the fight with the Tarantula is BTS, right? 


Quote: 
>>>
The guest appearances by the New Avengers there are before they go public (Cloak has heard rumors of this line-up, but that's it).  
<<<

The timing of the Avengers going public has been a bit confusing. Solicitations call for that to happen in A4 15, but it already happened in A4 7 -- it hit the newspapers in that issue!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2005 02:28 am    
By JD

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
JD wrote: 
>>>
RUN2 #1-6 happen just a bit after YOUNG AVENGERS #1 but before A4 #1 
<<<

Why is that, ooc (I don't have the Runaways arc to hand) 
<<<

See my analysis for RUN2 #1-6. Basically : 
- Victor at first confuses the Runaways for the Young Avengers in RUN2 #2, so they've at least made their debut. 
- The fight between the Runaways and the Wrecking Crew in RUN2 #1 is alluded to in A4 #8 as happening before the Raft Breakout. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm a little confused by the references to "one month." Is RUN2 7 supposed to occur exactly one month after RUN2 6 or just sometime during the month after RUN2 6? And why does there need to be a month or more between RUN2 8 and 9? Something about a transmission?  
<<<

In RUN2 #7, Victor says : "I've been watching you guys take down these losers for a whole month now" [since he joined them in RUN2 #6]. So yes, it's meant to be about one full month. 

In RUN2 #9, Nico says : "It's been a month since [Karolina's] last transmission." Karolina left Earth in RUN2 #8 and promised to send regular messages, the first one of which happening in RUN2 #8. The dialogue in #9 suggests that there have been other transmissions since then, which is why I said "at least one month" between those two issues. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And the fight with the Tarantula is BTS, right?  
<<<

Not even that, it's just alluded to in narration as happening "three weeks ago". There were a few other instances of this in #1-6 that I didn't bother chronologising (since there were no flashbacks to depict the events). 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The timing of the Avengers going public has been a bit confusing. Solicitations call for that to happen in A4 15, but it already happened in A4 7 -- it hit the newspapers in that issue! 
<<<

Actually, the New Avengers appearing thus far in RUN2 #9-12 are the "core members" : Captain America, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Wolverine and Luke Cage. Thus, that arc can actually happen between A4 #6 & #7 (though I hope that's not the case).

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2005 08:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Actually, the New Avengers appearing thus far in RUN2 #9-12 are the "core members" : Captain America, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Wolverine and Luke Cage. Thus, that arc can actually happen between A4 #6 & #7 (though I hope that's not the case). 
<<<

It doesn't have to. The "rumor" that Cloak heard may have had its basis in the newspaper reports, but Cloak himself may not have read the papers. Instead, he may have heard about the New Avengers through the resulting word of mouth so, to him, it's unfounded.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2005 11:20 am    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
Victor at first confuses the Runaways for the Young Avengers in RUN2 #2, so they've at least made their debut. 
<<<

Doesn't mean very much,. esp. if you remember how the YA themselves got that name...

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2005 03:23 pm    
By JD

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
JD wrote: 
>>>
Victor at first confuses the Runaways for the Young Avengers in RUN2 #2, so they've at least made their debut. 
<<<

Doesn't mean very much,. esp. if you remember how the YA themselves got that name... 
<<<

I don't have the issue at hand, but I seem to recall Victor calling them "THE Young Avengers", meaning that there's already a team going by that name. And we're talking about a guy who can recognize an adult Lightspeed.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 01:29 am    
by Kevin W.
Director

Also in the latest issue of Runaways, the villian called the "Pusher Man" thinks Chase and Nico belong to a superhero team of some sort, and says, "Go on, tell us which super-powered Boy Scout troop you narcs are a part of. The Young Avengers? Or maybe those New Warrior cats from the TV?" 

The whole "from the TV" remark is probably a reference to the recent New Warriors miniseries. So this story arc occurs after that point... 

Hope this is all lining up. Brian K. Vaughan is starting to love those references to other currently published Marvel titles...(so does Robert Kirkman, and his references end up in chronology headaches).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 11:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Also in the latest issue of Runaways, the villian called the "Pusher Man" thinks Chase and Nico belong to a superhero team of some sort, and says, "Go on, tell us which super-powered Boy Scout troop you narcs are a part of. The Young Avengers? Or maybe those New Warrior cats from the TV?"  
<<<

Well, that begs the question: how long after RUN2 9 does RUN2 11 occur?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2005 11:58 am    
By JD

It's a bit unclear, but I'd say they're separated by at most 36 hours. I first thought they were happening the same night, but there's a flashback in #10 that inserts 24 hours between the two issues.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2005 11:21 am    
By Paul Boucier
Director

Okey dokey then. Looks like I have to re-evaluate my relative placements of RUNAWAYS and NEW WARRIORS.  

So we have RUN2 10-FB occurring the day after RUN2 9, RUN2 10 occurring the same day as RUN2 10-FB, and RUN2 11 occurring the same day as RUN2 10. Right?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jan 2006 09:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

In comparing clues in NEW AVENGERS, NEW WARRIORS v3 and RUNAWAYS v2, we seem to encounter another example of conflicting temporal references. 

First consider this sequence... 
A4 1-3 -- the Raft breakout; Tiger Shark and Armadillo escape 
NW3 1-FB -- a day or two after the breakout, they rough up a pizza delivery guy and smash a cop car 
NW3 1-FB -- "two months" later, the New Warriors fight the villains 
NW3 2 (2-21) -- probably the next day 
NW3 2 (22-23) -- "two weeks" later 
NW3 3 (1-20) -- probably the following day; TV execs pick up the New Warriors show 
The show airs at some point after this and Pusher Man sees it 
RUN2 9 -- Pusher Man refers to "those New Warrior cats from the TV" and Cloak says he's heard "rumors" of the New Avengers line-up 
A4 15 -- the New Avengers go public in a big way, confirming any rumors 

So, from this logical sequence, it would appear that the A4 11-15 arc occurs a good few months after A4 1-3. 

Yet, in A4 11, Cap says the Raft breakout occurred only "last month." 

Unless Cloak was being sarcastic with that rumor statement (as in, "yeah, the New Avengers have all over the blasted media for a couple of months now...I think I've heard something about them"), things don't add up here. We could ignore Cap's line, which may have negative repurcussions on Fury's timeline, or we could (ta da) "pull another Cable" with that "two month" reference in NW3 1 and make it two weeks. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2006 08:51 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
We could ignore Cap's line, which may have negative repurcussions on Fury's timeline, or we could (ta da) "pull another Cable" with that "two month" reference in NW3 1 and make it two weeks. 
<<<

On second thought, that doesn't work either. Here's why... 

In M/TU3 11, Nova mentions the "New Avengers," indicating that this story occurs at least after A4 10. M/TU3 11-13 is a story arc without interruption. Fury is in charge of SHIELD in M/TU3 13. So I suppose that M/TU3 11-13 occurs after A4 15 (the big issue concerning Fury on which all our continuity hopes rest). 

Also in M/TU3 11, Nova notes that "the New Warriors might be getting back together  again." This places M/TU 3 11-13 before the New Warriors first adventure in NW3 1, which occurs before the decision to air the Warriors' show on TV in NW3 3. 

In RUN2 9, Pusher Man refers to "those New Warriors cats from the TV," placing this issue after NW3 3. 

So we have... 
A4 15 
M/TU3 11-13 
NW3 1-3 
RUN2 9 

That order places RUN2 9 quite a bit after A4 15, the issue in which the New Avengers really go public. So perhaps Cloak's comment about the "rumor" of the new Avengers is sarcastic? 

Man, this whole Fury thing can really screw us over...
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jan 2006 09:35 am    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So we have RUN2 10-FB occurring the day after RUN2 9, RUN2 10 occurring the same day as RUN2 10-FB, and RUN2 11 occurring the same day as RUN2 10. Right? 
<<<

No, it's a bit more complicated than that, as I didn't have time to elaborate. 

The order is so far : 

(not long ago, I don't have the issues on hand to verify whether the length of time is actually precised) 
RUN2 #10 - FB 2 : Dagger is attacked 

First night : 
RUN2 #9 part 1 : Cloak goes to see Dagger in the hospital, but gets attacked by the New Avengers (Cap, Spider-Woman, Cage) 
RUN2 #10 - FB 1 ("24 hours ago") : Just after that, Wolverine and Iron Man are in route to answer the call for help from Cap 

Second night : 
RUN2 #9 part 2 : Cloak summons the Runaways to NY. 
RUN2 #10 ("now") : The Runaways start to investigate 
RUN2 #11 : The Runaways learn the identity of the culprit 

I'll give more detailed descriptions and page ranges when I'll do the full analysis for #9-12.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jan 2006 09:27 pm    
By Paul Boucier
Director

Thanks for the clarification, JD. I look forward to your full analysis after issue #12 comes out.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2006 02:26 am  
By JD

Uh oh... 

In RUNAWAYS #12, Wolverine says apropos of Molly : 
"Only 198 mutants left on this planet, and she had to be one of them..." 
Since that issue happens straight after the previous one, that pushes the whole arc after House of M. 

(full analysis coming in a few days...)

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2006 10:35 am    
By Somebody

Problem is, that's an in-joke. And like most in-jokes, it only makes sense from an out-of-continuity perspective. Only 198 mutants remaining is seemingly disproven pretty quickly.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2006 12:09 pm    
By JD

Well, the X-Books seem to be going with the "198" as a symbolic thing (however nonsensical it looks), so Wolverine cracking a joke about it is not that outlandish. 
Anyway, it only makes sense if it happens post-HoM. 

Which is not that bad, actually : it allows for quite some time to pass between #8 and #9, without being constrained by the A4 timespans. We'll just have to assume that Cloak is really out of touch with current events, since there's no way now that this arc can fit before A4 #15...

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 10:39 am    
By Jason Doty

The Runaways New York adventure also takes place after the birth of Cage's kid, as he explaines to the villian he is a father now.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 11:18 am    
By jephyork
Director

Technically, the minute he found out Jessica was pregnant he could claim that "he's a father". Did he phrase it in a way that makes it explicit that the baby has been born? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 09:56 pm    
By Jason Doty

He specifically says, "I got a kid," I guess you can take that anyway you desire.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Apr 2006 05:01 am    
By JD

JD wrote: 
>>>
- Excelsior is mentionned in #7 as handling the supervillains the Runaways defeat, and the Runaways are fleeing from them. I think this means a BTS for the lot of them in that issue (Michiko Musashi/Turbo 2 (A), Phil Urich, Chris Powell/Darkhawk, Julie Power/Lightspeed, Johnny Gallo/Ricochet 3, "Chamber" 2, Rick Jones) 
<<<

Scratch that BTS for "Chamber" 2, as I've just seen this bit in Vaughan's FAQ : 
http://bkv.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4779 


Quote: 
>>>
Now that Chamber has a gaping hole in his chest and is obviously depowered, is that going to interfere with the fake Chamber in Runaways or did you know of his demise before House of M? Does this make the whole concept of the reveal easier? 

***No need for a reveal, Fake Chamber already left Excelsior at the end of Runaways #6.  
<<<

This works for me (though the story could have been clearer in establishing that "Chamber" 2 had definitely left Excelsior).

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Apr 2006 07:37 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JD wrote: 
>>>
Scratch that BTS for "Chamber" 2, as I've just seen this bit in Vaughan's FAQ : 
http://bkv.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4779 
<<<

We don't use other web sites as sources. Please go to the books themselves. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Apr 2006 01:06 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, if we never see Chamber again as a member of Excelsior, there will no longer be any reason to infer his presence BTS as a member of the team in that issue.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 24 Mar 2006 07:05 am    Post subject: Calendar call for analysis
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Now that the new Previews has come out (with yet another Franklin Richards -- well, HERBIE -- story to boot), I've compiled an updated list of comics I don't plan to collect. Folks have volunteered to do analyses for some of these comics, but others don't have any takers yet. 

Completed stories (as of 3/29/06) 
Annihilation: Prologue (JLH) 
Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1-6 (Russ) 
Punisher v7 #25-30 (Kevin) 
Sentinel v2 #1-5 (JD) 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 

Future stuff 
Amazing Fantasy v3 #16-20 (Kevin) 
Annihilation: Nova #1-4 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Ronan #1-4 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Silver Surfer #1-4 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Super Skrull #1-4 (JLH) 
Ares #1-5 (Frederic) 
Avengers & Power Pack Assemble! #1-4 -- canonical? 
Black Widow: The Things They Say About Her #1-6 (Kevin) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (stavesacre79) 
Book of Lost Souls #1-3  canonical? 
Daredevil v2 #82-87 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Father #6 (Kevin) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Doc Samson v2 #1-5 
Eternals v2 #1-6 
Fantastic Four: First Family #1-6 (Sean K.) 
Fury: Peacemaker #1-6 (Col_Fury) 
Giant-Size Hulk #1 (Kevin) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #92-95 (Kevin) 
Marvel Westerns: Two-Gun Kid (Sean K.) 
Moon Knight v? #1-6 
Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #1-12 (Chris) 
Punisher v7 #31-36 (Kevin) 
Punisher: The Tyger (JLH) 
Runaways v2 #14-18 (JD) 
Spider-Woman: Origin #1-5 (Col_Fury) 
Storm v2 #1-6 (Col_Fury) 
Underworld #1-5 
Wolverine v3 #41 
Wolverine v3 #42-47 
Wolverine: Origins #1-5 
X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #1-4 

Any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. As always, thanks to all who post on this forum!
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 19 May 2006 08:34 pm; edited 8 times in total

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Posted: 24 Mar 2006 11:16 am    
By Jason Doty

Storm v2 1-6 is set entirely in the past. 
X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula 1-4. is set in the past, but is narrirated by Ozymedaius and his scenes may be contemporary.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2006 02:50 pm    
By Somebody

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula 1-4. is set in the past, but is narrirated by Ozymedaius and his scenes may be contemporary. 
<<<

His scenes slot in shortly before X181 (it's not entirely clear where they fall with respect to C/D 26-27 yet, but Ozzy spends time in flashback-mode in C/D 26 too). We see Apoc in statis therein.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2006 06:07 pm    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Annihilation: Prologue 
I (Heart) Marvel: Marvel AI 
I (Heart) Marvel: My Mutant Heart 
I (Heart) Marvel: Web of Romance 
Annihilation: Nova #1-4 
Annihilation: Ronan #1-4 
Annihilation: Silver Surfer #1-4 
Annihilation: Super Skrull #1-4 
Punisher: The Tyger 
<<<

I can do the other (heart) Marvel stuff, since my local store decided "Hey, he's buying a few of them, let's give him ALL of them!" All the Annihilation stuff I can do, since that's the one Marvel crossover I will be getting this year. And Punisher Tyger I had signed up for before when it was supposed to come out last year, so I can do it again. 

As for GR6, I'll get that up this week. It'd slipped my mind after the monthly was announced.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2006 08:21 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JLH. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Mar 2006 02:07 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

You can put me down for FF: First Family. I'll probably also pick up the Two-Gun Kid story.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Mar 2006 03:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Sean.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2006 12:17 am    
By Frederic Krier

I've been picking up both Ares and Silver Sable & Dominic Fortune, so I could do those.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2006 06:42 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sounds good, Frederic. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2006 10:47 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'll take Giant Size Hulk #1, Paul. 

I've been in the middle of moving to my new house, so that's why my reviews have been put on delay...I hope to start putting up some of my overdue reviews this week. 

Also, Paul, would you mind sharing what you ARE going to be collecting over the next few months? Do you plan on just getting the basic Civil War miniseries, but avoiding all of the spin offs? Similar to what you did for House of M? 

JLH wrote: 
All the Annihilation stuff I can do, since that's the one Marvel crossover I will be getting this year. 


So you're getting Annihilation, but avoiding Civil War? Interesting. Civil War is the one crossover I'll be getting. I wanted to pick up Annihilation, but if Marvel's going to be releasing two major crossovers in one year, then they're basically forcing me to choose one over the other, (I'm not rich, Marvel)! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2006 07:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier

I'm collecting/plan to collect the following titles in the next few months: 

Amazing Spider-Man 
Astonishing X-Men v3 
Black Panther v4 
Cable & Deadpool 
Captain America v5 
Captain America 65th Anniversary Special 
Civil War 
Civil War: Front Line 
Fantastic Four 
4 
Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man 
Generation M 
Genext 
Iron Man v4 
Iron Man: The Inevitable 
Marvel Team-Up v3 
Ms. Marvel 
New Avengers 
New Avengers Illuminati 
New Excalibur 
New X-Men 
Pulse 
Sensational Spider-Man v2 
Sentry v2 
She-Hulk v4 
Son of M 
Spider-Man and Arana Special 
Spider-Man Team-Up Special 
Spider-Man Unlimited v2 
Thing v2 
Thunderbolts 
Uncanny X-Men 
X-Factor v3 
X-Men v2 
X-Men: Deadly Genesis 
X-Men: The 198 
X-Men Unlimited v2 
X-Statix Presents: Dead Girl 
Young Avengers 
Young Avengers Special
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Mar 2006 05:57 am    
By JLH

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
So you're getting Annihilation, but avoiding Civil War? Interesting. Civil War is the one crossover I'll be getting. I wanted to pick up Annihilation, but if Marvel's going to be releasing two major crossovers in one year, then they're basically forcing me to choose one over the other, (I'm not rich, Marvel)!  
<<<

I think I've reached my "not into huge crossovers" phase of life. In the past year, I bought all of "House of M", and everything "Infinite Crisis" related, only to have them all end up collected, much cheaper, and I've been behind in normal reading so I actually could've waited for the trades. In "Civil War"'s case, there's nothing there to imply to me that I HAVE to be there for it, like if I miss anything I'll regret not getting it to begin with. The writers and editors in all interviews thus far have made pretty clear they aren't writing this storyline with the intent of making it a new status quo, but just a momentary shake up to avoid doing anything that could too upset their special "Hollywood properties". So what if legislation is passed against unlicensed superheroes? It'll be repealed eventually, no matter what "side" happens to "win". 

Whereas with Annhiliation, a bunch of characters that haven't been really touched in a while? I guess to me it's character over event. I want to see something done with these guys, I don't care the story premise, just get it out there and do something. "Civil War" seems to me reversing that, a story where it doesn't matter what characters are involved as long as it's everybody in a current book. It's a little hypocritical of me... I started collecting comics in the middle of a crossover ("Web of Spider-Man" #32, which, the silly 7 year old I was, thought it was connected to an earlier story I had read prior to that, "Web of Spider-Man" #16. Ya see, Spidey "dies" in that issue, and the cover to 32 has him crawling out of the grave...  ) and I've fully endorsed such notorious events as Onslaught and Flashback month. But unless "Civil War" ends with Galactus uniting every nation on the planet into one combined government, I'll just have to sit this one out. I'm even dropping a few books that I was weary continuing, using their connection to the crossover as an excuse. So I guess my wallet is the winner of "Civil War"! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Mar 2006 09:14 am    
By jephyork
Director

Whose side is it on? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Apr 2006 02:27 am    
By Col_Fury

Seeing as how I overhauled Black Panther's early chronology with my analysis of Black Panther v4 1-6, I can do an analysis for Storm 1-6, seeing as how it ties into that area. I'll probably throw in the FlashBacks from BP4 14 as well, and any possible future FlashBacks that will turn up along with it.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Apr 2006 07:18 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sounds good, Col_Fury. Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 38

Posted: 12 Apr 2006 01:26 pm    Post subject: Thing #3
By SKleefeld
Director

The issue picks up shortly after #2... 

p. 1 -- Constrictor and Nighthawk have finished decimating Arcades Enchanted Forest of Death. Appearances by: Nighthawk, Constrictor 

pp. 2-9 -- Ben fights off an army of Hulk robots. Nighthawk and Constrictor arrive to help, and Tony Stark sends in some Thing robots he's found to allow everyone to leave safely. Arcade is furious. Appearances by: Tony Stark, Thing, Nighthawk, Constrictor, Arcade, Carlotta LaRosa, Locke, Chamber, Brynocki, and presumably a BTS for all the party-goers noted in #1. 

pp. 10-13 panel 2 -- Arcade send off EVEN MORE robots for everyone to fight. Secretly, Arcade offers an escape deal to Carlotta. Appearances by: Thing, Constrictor, Nighthawk, Carlotta LaRosa, Arcade and presumably a BTS for all the party-goers noted in #1. 

pp. 13 panel 3-14 -- Alicia Masters, Arlo North and Matt Murdock show up at Bartleby's sculpture gallery trying to track down who's been forging Alicia's work. It's noted that Murdock is currently suing the newspapers who claim he's Daredevil. Appearances by: Alicia Masters, Arlo North, Matt Murdock, Mr. Bartleby 

pp. 15-22 panel 4 -- Having defeated the robots, the crew make their way to the immunity spot, only to discover it's only five feet square. Carlotta tries to escape on hovercraft, which Constrictor and Thing take down. They used damaged craft to hold everyone as Ben stands on the immunity spot. Stark, meanwhile, finds Arcade and -- with a reprogrammed Brynocki's help, subdues him. By the end of the sequence, we see a cresent moon. Appearances by: Tony Stark, Thing, Nighthawk, Constrictor, Arcade, Carlotta LaRosa, Locke, Chamber, Brynocki, and presumably a BTS for all the party-goers noted in #1. 

pp. 22 panel 5-23 -- Daredevil visits Alicia to drop off a birthday present. Johnny Storm is on the phone with Alicia saying he just picked the Thing up. Alicia notes that her birthday is "weeks away." Daredevil notes that he's "going to be -- detained for a while" presumably referring to his impending incarceration. Appearances by: Alicia Masters, Arlo North, Daredevil, and Johnny Storm (BTS -- I think. It's clear it's Johnny on the phone, but we don't actually his voice.)

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Posted: 12 Apr 2006 08:29 pm    Post subject: Code of Honor notes
By Enda80

I found #2-4 cheap, and decided to write up clues that I stumbled upon for placement. If somebody has the inclination to do a full-fledged analysis, go ahead on. 

SPOILERS 


#2 The Scarlet Witch and Vision married in a Giant-Size Avengers issue-see Immortus profile. 

The Angel, DD, and Black Widow were active in Califorina during stories published in the 1970's, around DD I#92 and Champions of Los Angeles. Was Piper supposed to be present for this scene? 

The Silver Surfer scene is ironic, since it happens while Piper is wondering about how it would feel to travel among the stars-Galactus prevented the Surfer from doing this-see Skrull impersonator of Surfer profile. 

The Sebastian Shaw scene coms from the Dark Phoenix saga. 

The Elektra vs. the Hand scene is probably new. Nothing jumps out at me. 

By the way, a bit of newspaper can be seen holding a review of the film Swingers, which starred John Favreau, who later played Foggy Nelson. Due to the rolling timescale, this is not an anachronism (and was probably not an in-joke, since COH came out before 2003). 

A bumper sticker for Captain America's candidacy appears, from the Byrne/Stern era. 

Did Piper see Strange or was that only his astral form? 

The scenes between Cloak and Dagger and Father Delgado I cannot place. From actual C&D stories? 

#3 Zorro referenced. An issue of Tomb of Dracula before#50 also made reference to Zorro (true name Don Diego Vega). Note that Marvel published a Zorro comic to tie in with the Family Channel tv show of the early 1990's. Also, the policeman speculates that many of the Marvels do not have dual identities; in the DC Universe, most people presume that Superman does not have a dual life, and presumes that he toils in his Fortress of Solitude or lair in between missions. (Actually Superman was interesting when he came out, since he was at the time one of the few, if not the only, prominent costumed heroes who was not wealthy and worked a regular occupation; the Green Hornet came close as a newspaper publisher, but was wealthy, while the Clock was a retired DA. There was actually no reason for anyone to suspect that the Kryptonian had a dual identity.) 

The snow giant is not Ymir, and comes from Thor#308 (I corrected comics.org about this). 

The Kingpin cameo-was that in #1 or elsewhere? 

The scene with Frank Castle comes from ASM@15. He was seen in prison in DD I#181 subsequently. 

See earlier Cloak and Dagger comments. 

The presence of the Ani-Men, Living Laser (possibly), and Abomination may represent a problem, as it takes place during the Secret Wars. The Ani-Men died in DD I#158, for example. 

Who is the figure with dreadlox? 

The attack by Surtur with the Casket of Ancient Winters comes from Avengers I#249 and Simonson's Thor run. 

Kristoff Vernard's move against the Baxter Building is from the Byrne FF run. 

The Beyonder scenes echo Secret Wars II. 

THe presence of Archangel may be an anachronism. 

The supposed death of the mutants in Dallas refers to a storyline published circa 1988 regarding the Adversary. 

Piper experiences the Inferno event. This was later dismissed as "mass hallucinations" see X-Factor's 1989 annual as well as Madelyne Pryor's Update '89 entry. 

Fisk's time as a vagrant follows Daredevil I#300.

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 21 Apr 2006 10:11 am    Post subject: Thing #4
By SKleefeld
Director

pp. 1-3 -- Lockjaw gets a pick of marble stuck in his side and tries to get various people to help pull it out. Presumably, this occurs during a lunar day since Black Bolt is shown attending to "affairs of state." Appearances by: Lockjaw, Karnak, Gorgon, Triton, Black Bolt, Medusa, Uatu 

pp. 4-11 -- Iron Man and the Thing return to NYC with everyone who was captured by Arcade in #1. This is presumably the morning after the end of #3 since they are JUST returning from the adventure. As Ben returns, Sue hands him Valeria to babysit and Lockjaw shows up seeking assistance with the marble sliver. There's a one-panel flashback on page 4 where Ben discovers the employees of everyone who was originally captured. This would likely occur after #3, but before the start of #4. Appearances by: Thing, Iron Man, Bunny (Ben's chaffeur), Edwin Jarvis (it looks like, but no name is given), Alfred Pennyworth (again, the right visual, but no name), Invisible Woman, Human Torch II, Carlotta LaRosa, Mr. Fantastic, Valeria Richards, Lockjaw, HERBIE. Johnny also mentions getting Beyonce's phone number, so she might warrant a BTS here. 

pp. 12-22 -- Ben spends the day with his god-niece and -nephew. They're interrupted by Shockjock, who Ben promptly dispatches. Franklin relays to Ben his discomfort with spending large amounts of cash frivolously. Gorgon, looking for Lockjaw, at one point exclaims, "By Korath, what a day" suggesting this is the same day as the start of the issue. Appearances by: Thing, Franklin Richards, Valeria Richards, Lockjaw, Shockjock, Karnak, Triton, Medusa, Gorgon, Black Bolt. There's a flashback from pg 19 panel 3 until pg 20 panel 5 where Franklin explains why he doesn't like money. Since Sue is ranting about Franklin's upset stomach at the start of this issue, the flashback has to occur at least before that. Given that Franklin would need to get tired of his toys and comics and such, this sequence probably occurs before Thing #1 since the first three issues only take a day or so as it is. Flashback Appearances by: Franklin Richards, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch II 

pg. 23 -- The FF are enjoying a picnic in what appears to be Central Park. Since Sue is just now asking Franklin about his time with Ben, it is likely the same day as the beginning of the issue. Appearances by: Thing, Invisible Woman, Mr. Fantastic, Human Torch II, Lockjaw, Valeria Richards, Franklin Richards

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 02:12 pm    Post subject: 
By jannepie

BUG #1 (March 1997) 

p1-p8 Several weeks ago, as a result of their occupants sudden disappearance, the top four floors of the FFs headquarters were automatically shunted to the Negative Zone as a pre-programmed security measure. (I didnt read FF during that time, so I cant say in what issues of the FF that happened.) Annihilus breaks through the polyhydrogenated force field and absorbs the time-travelling power of Reed Richards apparatus into his cosmic control rod. FF arent here, although theres a picture of them in their laboratory in p2p2. To me that picture just seems imagination of Annihilus. 

Anyway, Reeds safety mechanism shrinks down Annihilus and he ends up in the Microverse. On Homeworld, Commander Arcturus Rann, Marionette, Bug and other rebels fight against the Dog Soldiers of the tyrants that have held Homeworld in their power for the last millennium. The entrance of Annihilus creates a vacuum that pulls Bug to him, and Bug is transported in time and space with Annihilus, when he investigates how to control his cosmic control rod. 

Annihilus and Bug end up transporting to lots of places in miniaturized size and keep fighting over the rod. 
p9-p12 Other appearances: Peter Parker, other students, a teacher. Bug throws a spider through that radioactivity apparatus and to Peters hand when he got his powers. 
p13-p14 Rick Jones, Bruce Banner. Gamma bomb explodes. 
p 15-16 Matt Murdock, the blind man. Bug and Annihilus fight in the back of the truck and blow a hole in the wall, from which the canister of radioactive crap falls of and blinds Murdock. 
p 17-18 A bat flies through a window of some wealthy-looking mans apartment. I dont know who this man is supposed to be. 
p 19-20 Frank Castle, his wife, people in the park, gangsters. Castles family is killed. 
p21-p23p2 Thor. Thors a frog and still new to this form. 
p23p3-p24 Reed Richards, Victor von Doom. Victor yells at Reed for going through his research papers. 
p25 Iron Man. The drunken Iron Man decides to stop drinking after seeing Bug and Annihilus. 
p26-27p1 Dr. Hines, Professor, Wolverine. Theres a sudden surge in adamantium during the process that attached it to Logans bones. 
p26-27p2-3 Stephen Strange is driving just before the accident. 
p26-27p4 Beast has just turned furry for the first time. Hes colored blue here. 
p26-27p5 Red Skull, Captain America. Red Skull wearing Nazi signs hits Captain America (with a round shield) 
p26-27p6-7 Black Bolt, Crystal, Gorgon, Karnak, Lockjaw, Medusa Triton. The Inhumans are havin dinner but the two miniaturized beings flying at Black Bolts face makes him say scram and fell the others. 
p28 A kid with a stuffed tiger (Calvin & Hobbies obviously) 

p29-32 Bug uses the rod to return to the time when Annihilus was breaking to the FF hq. Bug uses the cosmic control rod and sets it up so that every time Annihilus gets inside, hes teleported outside, never getting to Reeds apparatus. This removes the other Annihilus from existence and transports Bug back to Homeworld in the same moment Annihilus had come there. 

Bug still remembers these events but obviously because the time-jumping didnt happen, all the guest appearances didnt happen. In the end, I think those appearances that count are 
ANNIHILUS (who leaves after getting bored of trying to get in) 
BUG 
MARIONETTE (also seen in the end but the first pages count too) 
RANN, COMMANDER ARCTURUS (likewise)

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2006 03:33 pm    
By Somebody

jannepie wrote: 
>>>
p1-p8 Several weeks ago, as a result of their occupants sudden disappearance, the top four floors of the FFs headquarters were automatically shunted to the Negative Zone as a pre-programmed security measure. (I didnt read FF during that time, so I cant say in what issues of the FF that happened.) 
<<<

Tales of the Marvel Universe.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 12:36 am 
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
p 17-18 A bat flies through a window of some wealthy-looking mans apartment. I dont know who this man is supposed to be. 
<<<

It's Bruce Wayne. He'd just decided that criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot, and was trying to think of a scary thing to dress up as to fight them... 


Quote: 
>>>
p 19-20 Frank Castle, his wife, people in the park, gangsters. Castles family is killed. 
<<<

This one intrigues me, because Bug and Annihilus don't CAUSE or DISRUPT this scene -- they just WITNESS it. Since they don't change anything, presumably after Bug erased his time trip, the scene still played out the same exact way. This might qualify the scene for a listing. 

(Unless it unavoidably contradicts any of the other 42 small variations on the Punisher's origin we've seen before, that is...) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 01:16 am    
By jannepie

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Tales of the Marvel Universe. 
<<<

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It's Bruce Wayne. He'd just decided that criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot, and was trying to think of a scary thing to dress up as to fight them...  
<<<

Thanks! 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote:
>>>
p 19-20 Frank Castle, his wife, people in the park, gangsters. Castles family is killed. 
<<<

This one intrigues me, because Bug and Annihilus don't CAUSE or DISRUPT this scene -- they just WITNESS it. Since they don't change anything, presumably after Bug erased his time trip, the scene still played out the same exact way. This might qualify the scene for a listing. 

(Unless it unavoidably contradicts any of the other 42 small variations on the Punisher's origin we've seen before, that is...) 
<<<

The same thing with the Wolverine cameo and possibly some others.  

I think that even though those scenes tell what happened in the 616 timeline, they are still not part of it (especially with Bug and Annihilus appearing in the scenes with the others). I guess it depends of what MCP lists; the events that are themselves part of the 616 timeline or the events that tell what happened in the 616 timeline but aren't part of it themselves. Oy.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 01:24 am    
By jephyork
Director

No, the Wolverine cameo is only one panel, and it shows everyone reacting as Bug and Annihilus accidentally hit a button. This would have been completely erased if Bug never travelled in time. 

I'd have to flip through again, but I believe the Punisher scene was the only one that Bug and Annihilus didn't affect from their very first panel there. The way I see it, here's how it happened: 

In the original timeline, one presumes that the scene occured as shown, but without Bug or Annihilus there. 

When Bug and Annihilus took their time trip, they appeared in the scene but didn't alter it. It occured as shown. 

When Bug erased their time trip, their presence was erased -- so the scene occured as shown, but without Bug or Annihilus there. 

If that's the case, I think it should be considered for an MCP listing.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 05:30 am    
By jannepie

You're right but I'm sceptical about adding the Punisher events in MCP. Sure, the events happened like that but not for all the characters in the scene (Bug & Annihilus). That would mean that in a comic panel, some characters are canon and some are not, which could turn ugly. 

I agree that this is the way things happened but I feel that adding them to MCP would require at least some kind of special notification, since they're not actual 616 characters anymore.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 12:22 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
That would mean that in a comic panel, some characters are canon and some are not, which could turn ugly. 
<<<

Why would it turn ugly? As far as the MCP listings go, both Bug and Annihilus appeared in canon portions of the issue (the beginning and the end), so their listings would simply say "BUG 1" -- and if we decide that the Punisher sequence is new material, it would also be listed as "BUG 1". The MCP listings would be identical. 

I daresay the only confusion would come if some intrepid soul noticed that, although Bug, Annihilus and the Castles ARE given listings for BUG 1, none of the OTHER characters appearing in the past were. But that's what the Posting Board's for, to answer questions like that. 

Quote: 
>>>
I feel that adding them to MCP would require at least some kind of special notification, since they're not actual 616 characters anymore. 
<<<

Huh? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2006 04:48 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jannepie wrote: 
>>>
That would mean that in a comic panel, some characters are canon and some are not, which could turn ugly. 
<<<

The issue is not that some characters would be canon, while others aren't. Stories are canon, not characters. 

The issue is that some characters would be the "real 616" versions of the characters that we already track, and other characters would be alternate versions. I don't see an inherent problem here for the Project, or its listings. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 09:23 am    
By jannepie

Yes, thanks for explaning it better.  

So the timeline where Bug and Annihilus visited would be an alternate one because that timeline included Bug and Annihilus's visit, which is now erased. Punisher's involment in both timelines is exactly the same though.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 11:43 am    
By jephyork
Director

Not really, no. Time travel in Marvel stories can be a tricky thing. When characters vist the past: 

Sometimes they cause a divergent timeline to occur the instant they appear in the past, just because of their presence. 

Sometimes they cause a divergent timeline to occur only after they actually alter an event. 

Sometimes they DON'T cause a divergence, even if they DO interfere with something. 

The first item on that list is (I believe) the rarest. In general, the mere *appearance* of a time-traveller in the past doesn't *immediately* cause a divergent timeline to branch off. They have to DO something -- affect an event. 

And, since in the case of the Castle family, Bug and Annihilus DIDN'T do anything -- I think we can assume that they visited the 616 past, and left the 616 past unaltered and un-diverged. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jan 2006 01:07 pm    
By jannepie

Okay, you convinced me. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Feb 2006 03:47 am    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
And, since in the case of the Castle family, Bug and Annihilus DIDN'T do anything -- I think we can assume that they visited the 616 past, and left the 616 past unaltered and un-diverged. 
<<<

aka. The tree fell in the forest but since there was noone around to hear it, it didn't make a noise!  

 Just kidding. 
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 07:28 pm    
By Andy Grant

Two points: 

1) It's unclear what exactly is meant by "the top four floors". The top several floors of FF Plaza were destroyed by Onslaught and it spent several issues of the crossover as a topless building. Had the top four floors already entered the negative zone at this point? Or was it really the next four floors down that vanished when SHIELD rushed to secure Reed's technology in TOTMU? Are you worried about the chronology of four floors of a building? Does that makes them a character? 

2) Annihilus enters the Microverse by shrinking FROM WITHIN THE NEGATIVE ZONE. Has this been achieved before?

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Apr 2006 11:41 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Wasn't it established in Captain Marvel v3 #6 that, during some off-panel battle between Thanos and the X-Men, all the various Microverses were collapsed into one? I believe the new status quo is, no matter where you shrink from, you'll hit the same Microverse. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Apr 2006 07:39 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Andy Grant wrote: 
>>>
1) It's unclear what exactly is meant by "the top four floors". The top several floors of FF Plaza were destroyed by Onslaught and it spent several issues of the crossover as a topless building. Had the top four floors already entered the negative zone at this point? Or was it really the next four floors down that vanished when SHIELD rushed to secure Reed's technology in TOTMU? Are you worried about the chronology of four floors of a building? Does that makes them a character? 
<<<

Okay, I admit to not having my books handy at the moment, but this doesn't sound accurate to me. To my recollection, the sequence was... 

The top several floors of Four Freedoms Plaza were blown up during the Infinity War, and the building was seen in that state throughout that crossover. It was eventually repaired and remained whole and intact through Onslaught, including all the crossovers that I read. As the government tried to claim the building for their own in Tales of the Marvel Universe, Nathaniel Richards shunted all of the contents into the Negative Zone where Annihilus (in a behind-the-scenes scene) retrieved it at some undetermined time. The Thunderbolts, who were not yet publicly known to be criminals, were given the building as a headquarters by the Mayor of NYC. After Zemo's ruse was discovered, THEN he blew up the top several floors of the building. The building remained in ruins and unoccupied for some time, before the Kree transported it up to the moon. Once it was on the moon, the FF used what remained of the building itself to defeat Ronan. And after that, they discovered how Annihilus had used the previously jettisoned contents of the former building.

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Posted: 24 Apr 2006 11:21 am    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Wasn't it established in Captain Marvel v3 #6 that, during some off-panel battle between Thanos and the X-Men, all the various Microverses were collapsed into one? I believe the new status quo is, no matter where you shrink from, you'll hit the same Microverse. 
<<<

And Baron Karza and the Micronauts. 

Come to think of it, is that -FB in the relevant chronologies?

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Posted: 24 Apr 2006 05:01 pm    
By rhod

I don't know if it counts, but something similar was posited in What If v1 #23, whereby if you shrink far enough you will hit various different 'mini-worlds', the Microverse being one, Jarella's world being another, several others are mentioned which I can't remember off the top of my head, but apparently it all depends how much you shrink, and where you are on Earth makes no difference.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Thread 42

Posted: 22 Apr 2006 01:12 am    Post subject: Spider-Woman: Origin 1-5
By Col_Fury

Spider-Woman: Origin. Hmmnn. 

Before we get into that, lets take a look at Spider-Womans early chronology. At first glance, it is missing some FlashBacks from Spider-Woman vol. 1 #1, #37, some page/panel ranges from Marvel Spotlight 32 FlashBacks, etc. Heres whats already up: 

Spider-Woman/Jessica Drew 
PUN@ 1/4-FB 
SS@ 1/4-FB 
NM@ 4/3-FB 
A 187-FB 
NM@ 4/3-FB 
FF@ 21/3-FB-BTS 
WOSM@ 4/3-FB 
{M/SPT 32-FB} 
M/SPT 32 
M/TIO 31-FB 
M/TIO 29 
M/TIO 30 
M/TIO 31 
M/TIO 32 
M/TIO 33 
S-W 1 
S-W 2 
S-W 3 
S-W 4 
S-W 5 
S-W 6 
S-W 7 
 

Ill do a quick analysis of each of these issues in order of publication, so we know what came first, and therefore what is duplicated information. 

Marvel Spotlight #32 
Feb, 1977 

Pg1-pg2pn6: the Mediterranean 
Arachne(Jessica Drew) glides towards a SHIELD building, breaks in by ripping off a grate, and crawls in through the air ducts. 
Pg2pn7-pg3pn2: Overhead, Hydra aircraft 
Hydra agents wait for agent Arachne to complete her assignment. 
Pg3pn3-pg4pn1: SHIELD building 
Col Fury fights Hydra agent Jared while SHIELD agents watch. 
Pg4pn2-pg5pn4: SHIELD building 
Arachne emerges from the duct work and attacks some SHIELD agents. 
Pg5pn5-pg6pn1: SHIELD building 
Arachne then confronts Fury, whos standing over an unconscious Jared. 
Pg6pn2-pn4: FB 
An amnesiac Jessica Drew(with short blonde hair) is being chased by a lynch mob with torches and pitchforks. She shoots a villager with her Venom Blast, then Count Otto Vermis emerges from a limo and makes her an offer. 
Pg6pn5: FB 
Vermis is a Hydra Commander, revealed at their local headquarters. He wants her to join them. 
Pg7pn1-pn2: FB 
Vermis has a Hydra agent perform a mind probe on Jessica to cure her amnesia. Theyre surprised by the result, and withhold the information from her claiming the process was a failure. 
Pg7pn3: FB 
Jessica trains while Jared watches. 
Pg7pn4: FB 
Action pose! A picture of what agent Arachne will look like. 
Pg7pn5: FB 
Jessica and Jared smooch. 
Pg7pn6: FB 
Jessica is informed that Jared has been captured by SHIELD. 
Pg8: SHIELD building 
Arachne fights Fury and accidentally shoots Jared instead. She also accidentally triggers surveillance footage of Jared terrorizing women and children. Arachne cant believe it! 
Pg9pn1-pn2: SHIELD building 
Jared reveals that he was ordered to be Arachnes boyfriend, which upsets her. She decides to go after Vermis. 
Pg9pn3-pg12pn5: Hydra headquarters 
Arachne returns to the Hydra base using the sip seen earlier, and attacks Vermis. She chases him through hallways while Fury leads a SHIELD squadron to attack the Hydra agents. 
Pg9pn6: FB 
A teenage Jessica Drew is bathed in energy. 
Pg10pn1-pn2: FB 
A teenage Jessica Drew emerges from a chamber while the High Evolutionary watches. He has stabilized her powers. 
Pg10pn3-pn5: Hydra base 
Arachne cant believe it! 
Pg10pn6-pn7: FB 
Jessica looks at the New Men, then moves out into the real world. 
Pg11pn1-pn3: FB 
Jessica settles into a nearby town, but soon accidentally kills a local with her Venom Blast, which leads into the lynch mob scene seen earlier. 
Pg11pn4-pg13: Hydra base 
Distraught, Arachne accidentally lets Vermis escape, but she follows and makes his plane crash into a mountain, apparently killing him. Fury and SHIELD finish arresting the Hydra agents while Arachne escapes into the forest. 

References: 
Apparently, Jessica got amnesia after she killed the villager. She remembered being chased by the lynch mob, but not what caused it, so the trauma of the event caused her to lose her memories. 

When Jessica emerges from the chamber, shes a teenager. 

Jessica has blonde hair throughout, and is wearing a full mask, which covers her hair. 

Arachne is her Hydra name, and she doesnt start going by Spider-Woman until later. 

Marvel Two-In-One #29 
July, 1977 

Pg1-pg17: London 
Ben Grimm meets Shang-Chi, they fight some Hydra agents, and its revealed that Hydra has Arachne again, but now theyre calling her Spider-Woman. 

Marvel Two-In-One #30 
Aug, 1977 

Pg1-pg7: London 
Spider-Woman attacks Ben, then flies away. 
Pg8pn1: FB 
Repeat of Marvel Spotlight #32, pg10pn1, no new information. 
Pg8pn2-pg9pn2: London 
Spider-Woman returns to the local Hydra base. Shes lost some of her memories again, and is working for Hydra again. 
Pg9pn3-pg10pn3: London 
Ben is briefed by Col. Fury over a video-call. Fury mentions that he first met Spider-Woman a couplea months back, and that shes probably been brainwashed by Hydra. He wants Ben to find her. 
Pg10pn4-pg17: London 
Spider-Woman attacks Ben and Alicia! 

Marvel Two-In-One #31 
Sep, 1977 

Pg1-pg3pn2: London 
Ben and Spider-Woman are attacked by Hydra agents, then they chat. 
Pg3pn3-pg4pn1: FB 
Following the events of M/SPT 32, Jessica is captured by Hydra and brainwashed. 
Pg4pn2-pg17: London 
Ben and Spider-Woman team up, and are eventually attacked by a mutated Alicia! 

Marvel Two-In-One #32 
Oct, 1977 

Pg1-pg17: London 
After some fighting, Alicia is returned to normal! 

Marvel Two-In-One #33 
Nov, 1977 

Pg1-pg17: London 
Ben and Spider-Woman fight Modred the Mystic. 

References: 
She is now being called Spider-Woman, but shes still wearing the skull cap covering her hair, which is still blonde. 

The FlashBack seen in issue 31 bridges the gap between M/SPT and this arc, so shes not doing much between these appearances besides getting brainwashed. Shes lost her memory again at this point, and cant quite remember details.(due to the brainwashing). 

Spider-Woman vol. 1 #1 
April, 1978 

Pg1-pg6pn2: London 
Spider-Woman tries to steal some food, but is interrupted by someone who recognizes her. She goes home, and eventually goes to sleep. 
Pg6pn3: FB 
Following the events of M/TIO 33, Modred helps Spider-Woman remember stuff. 
Pg6pn4: FB 
Herbert Wyndham presents his genetic accelerator, and is scoffed at by his colleagues. Repeat of Thor 135-FB, no new information. 
Pg6pn5-pg7pn1: FB 
After being contacted by Herbert Wyndham, John Drew tells us all how great spiders are, and the two decide to embark on grand genetic experiments. Merriem and a young Jessica are seen. 
Pg7pn2: FB 
They decide to move to Wundagore Mountain. 
Pg7pn3: FB 
John finds uranium while theyre moving in. 
Pg7pn4: FB 
A citadel is constructed! 
Pg7pn5-pg9pn2: FB 
Merriem tells John that theres something wrong with Jessica, they attribute it to radiation poisoning from the uranium. They go to find that Herbert already has her in stasis in a cryogenic unit. John tries to inject her with his spider extract, but theres no effect because it needs months to incubate. Herbert suggests his genetic accelerator, but Merriem will have nothing of it! 
Pg9pn3: FB 
John is at Merriems grave. 
Pg9pn4-pn5: FB 
Herbert uses his genetic accelerator on Jessica, but decides it will take years before any effect will be seen. 
Pg10pn1: FB 
Repeat of M/SPT 32 pn10pn1, no new information. 
Pg10pn2-pg12: London 
Jessica wakes up, and now remembers everything! Over the next few days, she tries to get a job with no luck. One day, shes noticed by the guy from the grocery store, so she changes into her costume and beats him up. 
Pg13pn1-pn2: London, weeks later 
Jessica decides to dye her hair black, and alter her Spider-Woman mask. 
Pg13pn3-pg16: London 
Out on the town in her Spider-Woman costume, she beats up some bad guys and saves the guys life from the grocery store. His name is Jerry, and hes a SHIELD agent. 
Pg17: London, a hospital 
Recovering in the hospital, Jerrys partner mentions that he informed Fury of the ordeal. 

References: 
This issue picks up shortly after M/TIO 33, according to the FlashBack on pg6pn3. 

As of pg10pn2, Jessica fully remembers her past. Any Hydra brainwashing/false memories are gone until S-W 37 that is. 

Pg13pn2 is where Jessica decides to dye her hair black, so that would be her last appearance as a blonde. Also, she gets rid of the skull-cap part of her costume here. 

Fury was informed of Spider-Womans whereabouts in this issue, so he should get a BTS listing. 

With the exception of the redundant & the Modred FlashBacks, Jessica appears to be between 2 to 5 years old in these FlashBacks. 

Spider-Woman vol. 1 #2 
May, 1978 

Pg1-pg17: London 
Jessica tries some more to get a job, without success. One day, she meets Magnus, and they decide to go to America. 

Spider-Woman vol. 1 #3 
June, 1978 

Pg1-pg17: California 
Jessica and Magnus rent a room, and she mentions that she wants to see her father. Magnus shows her John Drews grave, which comes as a great surprise to her, since she didnt know he was dead. She finds out that a company called Pyro-Technics was responsible for his death. 

Spider-Woman vol. 1 #5 
Aug, 1978 

Pg1-pgpg2pn4: an old house 
Spider-Woman is tied up in a chair. 
Pg2pn5-pg4pn3: FB 
Immediately preceding the issue, Hangman ties up Spider-Woman. 
Pg4pn4-pg17: an old house 
Spider-Woman frees herself, and eventually goes on to further her investigation into her fathers death. 

Spider-Woman vol. 1 #7 
Oct, 1978 

Pg1-pg17: California 
With Jerrys help, Spider-Woman avenges her fathers death. They report to Fury once its all taken care of. 

References: 
In issue 2, Jessica decides to move to America, in issue 3 shes there and finds out her fathers dead, and by issue 7 she solves the mystery and is on good terms with Fury and SHIELD. She stays in America after that. 

The FlashBack in issue 5 should precede issue 5 in Spider-Womans chronology. 

Fury says he heard of John Drews death in issue 7, implying that the death was fairly recent. 

Avengers 187 
Sep, 1979 

Pg11pn3: FB 
Herbert Wyndham, John & Merriem Drew, and a young Jessica Drew watch as the Wundagore citadel is being constructed. 

References: 
Merriem is holding a very young Jessica here. She looks to be an infant, but could be 2 or 3. 

Spider-Woman vol. 1 #37 
April, 1981 

Pg1-pg3pn1: Helicarrier 
Spider-Woman pays Nick Fury a visit, and he gives her a reference for a private investigators license. Then they chat about her past: 
Pg3pn2: FB 
A 10 year old Jessica looks at herself in a mirror while the High Evolutionary watches. 
Pg3pn3: FB 
The High Evolutionary introduces Jessica to the New Men. 
Pg3pn4: FB 
Jessica becomes lonely amongst the New Men. 
Pg3pn5: FB 
Jessica gets a job in a village near Wundagore. 
Pg3pn6: FB 
Jessica is crying, shortly after she accidentally killed her boyfriend. 
Pg4pn1: FB 
Count Otto Vermis invites Jessica to Hydra. 
Pg4pn2: FB 
Jessica talks to Vermis at his Hydra base. 
Pg4pn3: FB 
Jessica trains at Hydra base. 
Pg4pn4: FB 
Jessica(as Arachne) fights Fury. 
Pg4pn5: FB 
Jessica(as Arachne) flies away from the Hydra base after she blew it up. 
Pg4pn6-pg22: Helicarrier 
Nick and Jessica chat, Val shows up and Jessica leaves. 
She eventually gets into a fight with Syrin, Black Tom Cassidy, and Juggernaut. 

Spider-Woman vol. 1 #38 
May, 1981 

Pg1-pg21pn3: Continued from last issue 
Jessica teams up with the X-Men and defeat Black Tom. 
Pg21pn4-pg22: A few weeks later 
Jessica comes home with her brand new business license. 

References: 
In issue 36, Jessica still lived in Los Angeles. In issue 37, shes already in San Francisco. Theres a lot of implied time between these two issues 

Jessica mentions to Nick that she cant remember anything from her past until she woke up in the High Evolutionarys care. She doesnt remember anything of her childhood or growing up, only what she experienced after she awoke form stasis. Modred didn't do a very good job... 

Punisher Annual 1/3(thanks shandrakor!) 
1988 

Pg1-pg5: 1930 
Wyndham is still a student in 1930, using the schools resources to further his own research. When he tries to convince the faculty of what hes doing, he is laughed at and then expelled for losing his temper. Months later, he performs his first successful evolution, on a Dalmatian, which quickly escapes and is shot by a hunter. 
Pg6pn1: Paris, France 
John and Herbert greet each other, obviously the first time theyve seen each other in a long while. Merriem tells Jessica to stop that 
Pg6pn2: Paris, France 
...and Herbert replies I dont mind, because Jessica is wiggling in his arms, and hes being polite. He then says the same thing he said in S-W 1-FB pg7pn1: Were both visionaries in a near-sighted world. Perhaps its time for us to find a place where we can create our visions unhampered! John mentions Merriem has inherited some land 
Pg6pn3-pn5: Paris, France 
...to which she says they could renovate it into a laboratory. Herb says he could sell his moms house, and John toasts to setting science on its ear, while they all drink.(except Jessica, of course) 
Pg6pn6: Wundagore Mountain 
Repeat of S-W 1 pg7pn2, no new information. 

References: 
This series of backup strips that ran through the Evolutionary War Annuals take place entirely in the past. Theres no current day bookend sequence from which to flash back from, so those notations should be removed from Spider-Womans entry in her chronology. 

Jessica is drawn at the same age as the S-W 1-FB, but the hair color doesnt quite match. Ah, well. 

Theres only one bit of repeated info here, and thats a lifted speech bubble set into the middle of a conversation. Here, Herbert says Were both visionaries almost as soon as he and Jon re-meet. In the S-W 1-FB, John lectures us on the greatness of spiders before Herbert says Were both visionaries I guess we can assume that Herb likes to repeat himself, because the best way I can see to make this work is: 

PUN@ 1/3 : Herb meets the Drew family, Jessica gets fussy, Herb says Were both visionaries, they discuss where they can move to over drinks. 
S-W 1-FB pg6pn5-pg7pn1 : Later that night, after some drinking, Herb says: John, youre the only one who believes me trusts me! To which John says: And you, my friend, believe in me! Jon then proceeds to lecture us on how wonderful spiders are, to which Herb feels the need to repeat himself: Were both visionaries 

Silver Surfer Annual 1/4(thanks shandrakor!) 
1988 

Pg1: Wundagore Mountain, 1930 
Herbert uses a pick axe while John tries to get his attention. 
pg2pn1: Wundagore Mountain, 1930 
Repeats S-W 1 pg7pn3, and adds some new dialogue. Same information, though. 
Pg2pn2-pg2pn3: Wundagore Mountain, 1930 
Merriem and Jessica approach, John warns them of the dangers of radiation. Then together, they all pity the poor, superstitious townsfolk. 
Pg2pn4-pg2pn5: Wundagore Mountain, months later 
Herb and John decide to get a Rocket Scientist to design their laboratory. 
Pg3-pg6: Wundagore Mountain, weeks later 
Jessica is scared by something she saw against the full moon. John and Herb go to investigate, get separated, and Herb meets a mysterious man who gives him Moloids to use for slave labor. 

References: 
Jessica does not appear on pg1, and pg2pn1 is a repeat of S-W 1-FB pg7pn3, so this issue should appear after that in her chronology. 

Jessica appears to be around 5 or so. 

New Mutants Annual 4/3 
1988 

Pg1-pg3pn2: Wundagore Mountain, March 1931 
Herbert and John chat while watching Moloids construct a citadel of science. Outside, Jessica is playing with a young Phillip Masters when she passes out. Merriem notices. 
Pg3pn3-pg4pn2: Wundagore Mountain 
Repeats S-W 1 pg7pn5-pg9pn2. No new information. 
Pg4pn3-pg6: Wundagore Mountain 
Upset, Merriem walks off. Later she decides to go for a walk. That night, Herbert and John go to look for her. Herbert finds her mutilated corpse, then sees a beast man run away, but doesnt tell John about the murder. Instead, he covers her body and attributes the death to her clumsiness. 

References: 
The only new information concerning Jessica is when she passes out, so this issue should precede S-W 1-FB pg7pn5 in her chronology. 

Fantastic Four Annual 21/3 
1988 

Pg1-pg6: Wundagore Mountain, April 1931 
Herbert is attacked by a werewolf, the same man beast from NM@ 4/3. This prompts him to build his High Evolutionary armor, then go out and beat the crap out of the werewolf. He notes to himself that Jessica is still in stasis. 

References: 
Jessica does not appear in this issue, but she is noted as being present in a cryogenic unit, giving her a BTS for this issue. 

Web of Spider-Man Annual 4/3 
1988 

Pg1-pg2: Wundagore Mountain 
The High Evolutionary mourns the death of some of his animal men. John Drew returns, possessed by Magnus. They chat. 
Pg3-pg4: Wundagore Mountain, next day 
Bova presents infant Pietro and Wanda to the High Evolutionary, because Magda has abandoned them. They need to find some parents for them John, still possessed by Magnus, mentions that hes returning to the grave, so John can have his body back. The High Evolutionary checks in on Jessica, whos still in her cryogenic unit. An American couple arrives, the woman is pregnant. 
Pg5: Wundagore Mountain, 2 days later. 
The woman gives birth, both she and the baby die. Bova tries to give Pietro and Wanda to the man, but he runs away. 
Pg6pn1-pn3: Wundagore Mountain 
Jessica wakes up from stasis, the High Evolutionary tells Bova to be her nanny. 
Pg6pn4-pn6: Wundagore Mountain, days later 
The High Evolutionary gives Pietro and Wanda to some gypsies. 

References: 
When Jessica wakes up here she is still about 9 or 10 years old in appearance. Once Bova becomes her nanny, she will stay at Wundagore living with the New Men until shes a teenager. 

Even though its not stated here, many years must separate pg5 & pg6, and the twins must also have been put into stasis. 

Magnus has possessed John Drew for many years at this point, covered in the backup strips in the 1988 ASM & UX Annuals. Apparently John didnt age while possessed, explaining why hes still relatively young in the early current day of the Marvel Universe. 

Putting all of this together: 

Spider-Woman/Jessica Drew 
PUN@ 1/3 
S-W 1-FB pg6pn5-pg7pn3 
SS@ 1/4 
A 187-FB 
NM@ 4/3 
S-W 1-FB pg7pn5-pg9pn5 
FF@ 21/3-BTS 
S-W 37-FB pg3pn2 
WOSM @ 4/3 
S-W 37-FB pg3pn3-pg3pn4 
M/SPT 32-FB pg9pn6-pg10pn2 
M/SPT 32-FB pg10pn6-pg10pn7 
S-W 37-FB pg3pn5 
M/SPT 32-FB pg11pn1-pg11pn3 
S-W 37-FB pg3pn6 
M/SPT 32-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn1 
M/SPT 32-FB pg6pn5 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn2 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn1-pg7pn3 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn3 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn4-pg7pn6 
{M/SPT 32 pg1-pg9pn2} 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn4 
M/SPT 32 pg9pn3-pg13pn3 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn5 
M/SPT 32 pg13pn4-pg13pn7 
M/TIO 31-FB 
M/TIO 29 
M/TIO 30 
M/TIO 31 
M/TIO 32 
M/TIO 33 
S-W 1-FB pg6pn3 
S-W 1 
S-W 2 
S-W 3 
S-W 4 
S-W 5-FB 
S-W 5 
S-W 6 
S-W 7 
 

As for Nick: 

Fury, Col. Nicholas Nick Joseph 
 
M/SPT 31 
M/SPT 32 pg1-pg9pn2 
*S-W 37-FB pg4pn4 
M/SPT 32 pg9pn3-pg13 
M/TU 51 
 
 
CA 218 
*S-W 1-BTS 
M/TU 71 
CA 222 
 

With that out of the way, lets see how Spider-Woman: Origin lines up with whats already established. 

Spider-Woman: Origin #1 
W: Brian Michael Bendis & Brian Reed 
D: Joshua Luna & Jonathan Luna 
Published: February, 2006 

Appearances: 
Jonathan Drew, Miriam Drew, Bova(human), Miles Warren, General Herbert Wyndham, Jessica Drew. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: Wundagore Mountain, 30 years ago, July 2 
A pregnant Miriam Drew collects a spider and names it the Wundagore Widow. She presents it to Jonathan Drew, and together they return to her house. There they talk to Bova the maid. Miles Warren comes out to greet them as a helicopter lands. Gen. Wyndham emerges and they give him a tour of the lab. They bring him to the DNA Compiler, a new computerized laser tool theyre using. Accidentally, the laser powers up with Miriam in its way 
Pg8: Wundagore Mountain, September 10 
Jon is worried about the effects of the laser on the baby inside his wife. 
Pg9: Wundagore Mountain, December 7 
Jessica Miriam Drew is born, healthy. 
Pg10-pg16: Wundagore Mountain, years later 
Jessica and Miriam collect spiders. Later, Jon and Miriam argue and Jon mentions that Miles Warren has left the project. Elsewhere, Jessica has a blackout. When she wakes up, Jon takes a blood sample to see whats wrong. 
Pg17: Wundagore Mountain, June 2 
Jon runs tests on Jessicas blood. He mentions that everyone else has left the project, and hes worried about what Gen. Wyndhams reaction will be. Suddenly, the computer finds a match in her blood: the Wundagore Widow. 
Pg18-pg21: Wundagore Mountain, June 7 
Jons been testing Jessica for four days now, and is going to give her another injection when Miriam finds his journal and stops him. They argue and Jessica runs away. Miriam tries to stop Jon, so he attacks her. Jessica shoots him with a Venom Blast and passes out. 
Pg22-pg24: a Hydra base 
A teenage Jessica emerges from a stasis unit of some sort and is greeted by Gen. Wyndham. 

References: 
In issue 5 of this miniseries, its revealed that Hydra gave Jessica some false memories to help them control her better. There are elements from this mini that fit nicely with the wider Marvel Universe, and other elements dont want to fit. Ill suggest that the parts that dont fit are false memories. But which ones are false? 

John and Merriem are misspelled as Jon and Miriam in this miniseries. Thats a start. 

The Wundagore house was established in PUN@ 1/3 as the ancestral home of Merriems family, so that fits. However, she didnt inherit it until Jessica was already between the age of 3 and 5. They couldnt have been living there and conducting scientific experiments before she was born, and then give birth to her at Wundagore, because they had to renovate the place to accommodate for the research after she was born. That labels pg1-pg9 as a false history. However, Jessica didnt experience pg1-pg9, so why would they bother? 

If we wanted to include pg1-pg9, theres a place to put it which Ill mark with an *, but I dont think its real. 

General Herbert Wyndham doesnt look like Herbert Wyndham the High Evolutionary, but he does look like Count Otto Vermis, down to the moustache. Gen. Wyndham is a Hydra agent, as was Vermis. However, Vermis had nothing to do with Wundagore. Its possible that when Hydra brainwashed Jessica, they linked memories of Wundagore and Vermis together with the Wyndham link, and overlaid Wyndham as Vermis in her memories, so if she ever went rogue she couldnt finger Vermis. Also, they would have set up a real-life alias for Vermis/Wyndham so if she heard other characters refer to Wyndham, she wouldnt question the ruse. This would allow for the majority of the Gen. Wyndham scenes to remain intact. 

Spider-Woman: Origin #2 
W: Brian Michael Bendis & Brian Reed 
D: Joshua Luna & Jonathan Luna 
Published: March, 2006 

Appearances: 
Jessica Drew, Gen. Herbert Wyndham, Marvin Flumm(Mentallo), Bova(cow)-FB, Jared Gold, Taskmaster, Col. Nick Fury. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: a Hydra base 
Jessica is awoken by Gen. Wyndham, who tells her that her parents are dead, and that shes been in a coma. He tells her shes been kept at this facility ever since Gen. Wyndham found her unconscious at Wundagore. Also, she has amnesia. 
Pg3-pg4: a Hydra base 
Jessica meets Marvin Flumm who will perform a mind probe to cure her amnesia. 
Pg5pn1: FB 
A young Jessica sits with Bova the cow woman. 
Pg5pn2: a Hydra base 
Jessica relates what shes seeing. 
Pg5pn3: FB 
Bova the cow woman is worried. 
Pg5pn4: FB 
Repeat of S-W: O 1 pg21pn6. No new information. 
Pg5pn5-pg5pn6: a Hydra base 
Jessica tries to fight the mind probe. 
Pg6pn1: FB 
Miriam is attacked, but Jessica sees a werewolf instead of Jon. 
Pg6pn2: FB 
Close up of S-W: O 1 pg21pn4, no new information. 
Pg6pn3: FB 
Jon & Miriam lying bloody & dead on the floor. 
Pg6pn4: a Hydra base 
Jessica fights the mind probe. 
Pg6pn5-pg6pn6: FB 
A young Jessica runs out of the house at Wundagore 
Pg7: FB 
 and encounters a gigantic High Evolutionary. He obviously played a huge role in her formative years.  
Pg8: a Hydra base 
Jessica wakes up and shoots Flumm with a Venom Blast then she passes out. 
Pg9: a Hydra base, later 
Jessica meets Jared Gold and they chat. She still has amnesia. 
Pg10-pg13: a Hydra base 
Jessica begins her training under the Taskmaster. Later that day, she chats with Jared who feeds her hydra propaganda. 
Pg14-pg16: a hydra base, three months later 
More training with the Taskmaster. Later, Gen. Wyndham tells Jessica that her parents were Hydra agents. 
Pg17: a Hydra base, night 
Jessica and Jared smooch. 
Pg18-pg22: a Hydra base, about three weeks later 
Now called agent Arachne, Jessica is training with the Taskmaster when shes informed by Gen. Wyndham that Jared has been captured by SHIELD. That night, she goes to Monaco to rescue him and kill Nick Fury. She glides towards the SHIELD building, breaks in and eventually confronts Fury. 

References: 
This issue fits in pretty well with established Marvel Universe history, specifically M/SPT 32. It looks to me that when Flumm gave her a mind probe, thats when the false memories where inserted. Since she woke up at the end of issue 1 and was brainwashed at the beginning of this issue, it seems that real events started happening on pg22 of issue 1. That would mean that S-W: O 1 pg1-pg21 are false memories. 

Again, theres a place to put pg10-pg21, which Ill mark with an *. 

As revealed in issue 5, Jessica hallucinates in times of stress.(more or less) These hallucinations reflect her real history as opposed to the false ones given to her by Hydra. 

Pg5pn4-pg6pn3s FlashBacks would be false. Obviously Jon survived, so he was never lying bloody & dead on the floor, alongside his wife or not. 

Again, the events depicted here involving Wyndham are events that were actually Vermis in M/SPT 32. Id like to say that the events are correct, if not the Vermis/Wyndham name. 

Spider-Woman: Origin #3 
W: Brian Michael Bendis & Brian Reed 
D: Joshua Luna & Jonathan Luna 
Published: April, 2006 

Appearances: 
Jessica Drew, Col. Nick Fury, Jared Gold, Dum Dum, Jimmy Woo, Gabe Jones, Clay Quartermain, Jasper Sitwell, Sharon Carter(?), Taskmaster, Gen. Herbert Wyndham. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: SHIELD building 
Arachne fights some SHIELD agents, but fury wants to show her something 
Pg3-pg5pn1: SHIELD building 
Fury brings Arachne into the war room and shows her footage of agent Jared terrorizing women and children. 
Pg5pn2: FB 
Miriam is zapped with the DNA Compiler. 
Pg5pn3: SHIELD building 
Fury explains that Gen. Wyndham was Hydra, but her parents werent most likely. 
Pg5pn4: FB 
Jon & Miriam in happier times. 
Pg5pn5-pg6pn1: SHIELD building 
Fury tells Jessica that Hydra has been lying to her. 
Pg6pn2: FB 
Jon Drew pacing in his lab. 
Pg6pn3-pg6pn6: SHIELD building 
Upset, Jessica runs away. Fury orders Jimmy Woo to follow her. 
Pg7pn1: SHIELD building, the next day 
Arachne is gone, Furys not happy. 
Pg7pn2: SHIELD, six months later 
SHIELD still cant find Jessica. 
Pg7pn3-pg7pn4: Helicarrier, two years later 
Fury is informed that Jessicas been found in London! 
Pg8-pg20: London 
Jessica is attacked by Jared with a Hydra squad in a dance club. He tells her that Wyndham ordered him to be her boyfriend. She escapes to the street where the Taskmaster is waiting for her. After a fight, she impales him with his sword and shoots a Venom Blast through it, which branches out and fries all of the Hydra agents. Later that night, Spider-Woman has Jared tied up in an airplane which she has aimed at Gen. Wyndhams house. She jumps from the plane and it destroys the house in an explosion. 
Pg21-pg23: San Francisco, two years later 
Jessica gets out of school and is met by Fury whos waiting for her. He offers her a job with SHIELD, but she turns him down. He then tells her that her parents arent dead. 

References: 
Jessica has black hair on pg8, so that has to happen after S-W 1 pg13pn2. Most likely, this happens after the entire issue of S-W 1, because at the end of that issue, Fury was informed of Spider-Womans whereabouts. But two years between M/SPT 32 and S-W 1? Come on, Bendis 

On pg7pn1, Fury wants to know where Jessica is. Obviously, this takes place two hours after M/SPT 32. On pg7pn2, Fury wants to know where Jessica is again. This most likely takes place after M/TIO 29-33, where Fury sent Ben Grimm to find her, and then she got away. On pg7pn3-pg7pn4, hes informed that shes in London. Again, this should be after S-W 1. 

Two years after that lines up more-or-less with publication time between S-W 1 & S-W 37,(well thats three years, Bendis strikes again!) and S-W 37 is after shed moved to San Francisco, placing this segment between issues 36 & 37 of S-W. 

Jared informed Jessica that Wyndham ordered him to be her boyfriend for the second time here, the first being in M/SPT 32.(but that was Vermis) Shed been brainwashed again by a different Hydra branch in the meantime, so its likely she forgot, meaning its possible that shed be surprised by the revelation twice I guess. 

On pg13pn3, Jessica hallucinates that the Taskmaster is a werewolf. 

Im sure that the writers intended for the female blonde SHIELD agent to be Sharon Carter, which would work fine for pgs1-20, but pg21-pg23 take place with comics published in 1981. Sharon was killed in CA 233, which was published in 1979. So I guess thats not Sharon Carter. Oh, well. 

Spider-Woman: Origin #4 
W: Brian Michael Bendis & Brian Reed 
D: Joshua Luna & Jonathan Luna 
Published: May, 2006 

Appearances: 
Jessica Drew, Col. Nick Fury, Dum Dum, Sharon Carter(?), Gabe Jones, Jimmy Woo, Jasper Sitwell, Clay Quartermain, Jon Drew, Miriam Drew, Whiplash, Count Otto Vermis, Madame Hydra-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Continued from last issue 
Jessica attacks Fury, demanding to know where her parents are. After a brief skirmish, Fury offers her a job, again. 
Pg4-pg5: Helicarrier, later that day 
Fury briefs Spider-Woman on her familys history, and what theyve been up to lately: 
Jons been receiving Hydra checks for doing odd research jobs, but nothing important so SHIELD stopped paying attention. Miriam took a stash of cash and disappeared until two days ago. 
Pg6-pg10: New York, night 
Jessica goes to visit her mom, but is surprised to find Hydra agents and Whiplash in her room. After a brief fight, Whiplash runs off and Jessica finds her moms corpse. After vomiting, she finds papers regarding the Athena Device MK 2 on one of the Hydra agents. 
Pg11-pg12: Helicarrier 
Nick is not pleased that theyve lost track of Jessica again. They talk about something called Athena, and apparently Count Otto Vermis has something to do with it. 
Pg13-pg18: Mediterranean Sea 
Jessica is posing as a bimbo to get information out of Vermis on his yacht. Whiplash is there, and he works for Vermis. They try to kill her, but she escapes. Vermis wants to go to the Athena facility, but Jessica returns and blows up the boat. 
Pg19-pg22: Athena facility 
Jon Drew is informed that Madame Hydra wants to see him in the lab, but before he can go, hes confronted by Spider-Woman 

References: 
And now we have Count Otto Vermis! The only thing I can think of is Jessicas memory is returning, but her brainwashing wont let it all come back. She hallucinates that Vermis is Bova, suggesting that shes fighting the false memories. Its also possible that Wyndham is an alias for Vermis, explaining why other characters refer to him under both names. 

Miriams corpse makes an appearance, but shes been dead and buried since 1930 

 and Jon Drew works for Hydra now. Its possible that he started working for Hydra at some point, and his death learned about in S-W 1-7 was a cover-up. He couldnt have been working for Hydra on Wundagore in the 1930s, because Strucker didnt form Hydra until the 1940s. 

As for Miriams corpse, it could have been planted information by Hydra, knowing that SHIELD would find out and let Spider-Woman know about it. The body wouldnt have been Miriams at all in that case. 

Whiplashs costume places this before Iron Man 146. 

Spider-Woman: Origin #5 
W: Brian Michael Bendis & Brian Reed 
D: Joshua Luna & Jonathan Luna 
Published: June, 2006 

Appearances: 
Jessica Drew, Col. Nick Fury, Madame Hydra, Gen. Wyndham, Jonathan Drew. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: Continued from last issue 
Madame Hydra chats with a disfigured Wyndham about the death of Vermis. 
Meanwhile, Jessica talks with her dad and he tells her that hes a Hydra guy. 
Pg7-pg8: Athena facility 
Jessica hallucinates while her dad confronts her with her past. He tells her that shes been given false memories by Hydra to make her easier to deal with, and she realizes that the hallucinations are brought on by stress. 
Pg9-pg19: Athena facility 
Jessica decides to blow up the Athena facility, which turns out to be a place used to create more Spider-Women. After a big fight, during which Madame Hydra kills Jon Drew, the facility blows up and Spider-Woman is picked up by SHIELD. 
Pg20-pg22: San Francisco, days later 
Jessica and Fury talk on the Golden Gate Bridge, and he offers her a job with SHIELD. She turns him down, but gives him her business card for Drew investigations. 

References: 
Jessica gives Nick her business card, implying that pg20-pg22 take place after S-W 38, which is where she gets her business license. She says that she can go about her day, which to me means that this takes place between S-W 38 & UX 148. In S-W 38 she thinks to herself that shes going to visit the X-Men, in UX 148 she does, but in between she gives Nick her card. 

Overall, the biggest problem there is with this series is the Wyndham/Vermis mess. I think its plausible for Wyndham/Vermis to have two names, meaning one is an alias for the other. Wyndham and Vermis dont meet throughout the series, and they dont refer to each other. Madame Hydra refers to Vermis death to a disfigured Wyndham, but she could be talking about his alias. Also, Wyndhams last appearance with a moustache is when Spider-Woman blows up his house. When Vermis makes an appearance, he looks similar to Wyndham, but with longer hair and without the moustache. After Vermis boat blows up, Wyndham appears disfigured and in a wheelchair. I think its safe enough to say that theyre the same character. 

Assuming this series sticks, heres a placement suggestion for Jessica Drews chronology.(keep in mind the asterisks. If we decide that pg1-pg21 are false, then S-W: O 1 pg22-pg24 should just read S-W: O 1) 

Spider-Woman/Jessica Drew 
*S-W: O 1 pg1-pg9 
PUN@ 1/3 
S-W 1-FB pg6pn5-pg7pn3 
SS@ 1/4 
A 187-FB 
*S-W: O 1 pg10-pg21 
NM@ 4/3 
S-W 1-FB pg7pn5-pg9pn5 
FF@ 21/3-BTS 
S-W 37-FB pg3pn2 
WOSM @ 4/3 
S-W 37-FB pg3pn3 
S-W: O 2-FB pg5pn1 
S-W 37-FB pg3pn4 
M/SPT 32-FB pg9pn6-pg10pn2 
M/SPT 32-FB pg10pn6-pg10pn7 
S-W 37-FB pg3pn5 
M/SPT 32-FB pg11pn1-pg11pn3 
S-W 37-FB pg3pn6 
M/SPT 32-FB pg6pn2-pg6pn4 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn1 
S-W: O 1 or *S-W: O 1 pg22-pg24 
S-W: O 2 pg1-pg2 
M/SPT 32-FB pg6pn5 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn2 
S-W: O 2 pg3-pg4 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn1 
S-W: O 2 pg5-8 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn2 
S-W: O 2 pg9-pg13 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn3 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn3 
S-W: O 2 pg14-pg16 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn4-pg7pn5 
S-W: O 2 pg17-pg20pn2 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn6 
S-W: O 2 pg20pn3-pg20pn5 
{M/SPT 32 pg1} 
S-W: O 2 pg21pn1 
M/SPT 32 pg2pn1-pg2pn3 
S-W: O 2 pg21pn2 
M/SPT 32 pg2pn4-pg2pn6 
S-W: O 2 pg21pn3-pg21pn5 
M/SPT 32 pg4 
S-W: O 2 pg21pn6 
M/SPT 32 pg5pn1-pg5pn2 
S-W: O 2 pg22 
M/SPT 32 pg5pn3-pg9pn2 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn4 
M/SPT 32 pg9pn3-pg10pn2 
S-W: O 3 pg1-pg6 
M/SPT 32 pg10pn3-pg13pn3 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn5 
M/SPT 32 pg13pn4-pg13pn7 
M/TIO 31-FB 
M/TIO 29 
M/TIO 30 
M/TIO 31 
M/TIO 32 
M/TIO 33 
S-W 1-FB pg6pn3 
S-W 1 
S-W: O 3 pg8-pg20 
S-W 2 
S-W 3 
S-W 4 
S-W 5-FB 
S-W 5 
S-W 6 
S-W 7 
 
 
S-W 36 
S-W: O 3 pg21-pg23 
S-W: O 4 
S-W: O 5 pg1-pg19 
S-W 37 
S-W 38 
S-W: O 5 pg20-pg22 
UX 148 
S-W 39 
 

And the rest: 

Vermis, Count Otto/General Herbert Wyndham 
M/SPT 32-FB pg6pn3-pg6pn4 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn1 
S-W: O 1 
S-W: O 2 pg1-pg2 
M/SPT 32-FB pg6pn5 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn2 
S-W: O 2 pg3-pg4 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn1 
S-W: O 2 pg5-8 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn2 
S-W: O 2 pg9-pg13 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn6 
S-W: O 2 pg14-pg20 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn6 
{M/SPT 32} 
S-W: O 3 
S-W: O 4 
S-W: O 5 

Bova 
 
WOSM@ 4/3 
*S-W: O 2-FB 
A 186-FB 
 

Mentallo/Marvin Flumm 
 
M/TIO 27 
*M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn1 
*S-W: O 2 
*M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn2 
CA 238 
 

Gold, Jared 
S-W: O 2 pg9-pg13 
M/SPT 32-FB pg7pn3-pg7pn5 
S-W: O 2 pg17 
M/SPT 32-FB pg9pn5 
S-W: O 3-FB 
S-W: O pg21pn5 
{M/SPT 32 pg1-pg5pn2} 
S-W: O 2 pg22 
M/SPT 32 pg5pn3-pg10 
S-W: O 3 

Taskmaster 
 
A 196-FB 
*S-W: O 2 
*S-W: O 3 
CA 403/2-FB 
 

Whiplash/ Mark Scarlotti/"Mark Scott" 
 
IM 127 
*S-W: O 4 
IM 146 
 

Madame Hydra/Viper II 
 
M/TU 85 
BEAST 3-FB 
*S-W: O 4-BTS 
*S-W: O 5 
S-W 42 
 

Fury, Col. Nicholas Nick Joseph 
 
M/SPT 31 
*S-W: O 2 pg21pn5 
M/SPT 32 pg1-pg5pn2 
*S-W: O 2 pg22 
M/SPT 32 pg5pn3-pg9pn2 
S-W 37-FB pg4pn4 
M/SPT 32 pg9pn3-pg110pn2 
*S-W: O 3 pg1-pg6 
M/SPT 32 pg10pn3-pg13 
*S-W: O 3 pg7pn1 
M/TU 51 
 
 
M/TIO 30 
*S-W: O 3 pg7pn2 
M/TU 57-BTS 
M/TIO 34 
 
 
CA 218 
*S-W: O 3 pg7pn3-pg7pn4 
S-W 1-BTS 
M/TU 71 
CA 222 
 
 
IM 142 
*S-W: O 3 pg21-pg23 
*S-W: O 4 
S-W 37 
*S-W: O 5 
MICRO 26 
 

Dugan, Timothy Aloyisious Cadwallader 'Dum Dum' 
 
M/TIO 26 
*S-W: O 3 pg7pn2 
M/TIO 34 
 
 
M/PRM 56 
*S-W: O 3 pg22 
*S-W: O 4 
MICRO 26 
 

Woo, Jimmy 
 
A 72 
*S-W: O 3 
GZILL 1 
 
 
GZILL 24 
*S-W: O 4 
M/FAN 12 
 

Jones, Gabriel 'Gabe' 
 
H2 199 
*S-W: O 3 
GZILL 2 
 
 
GZILL 24 
*S-W: O 4 
MICRO 26 
 

Quartermain, Clay 
 
H2 210 
*S-W: O 3 
H2 212 
 
 
M/TU 85 
*S-W: O 4 
H2 315 
 

Sitwell, Jasper 
 
IM 42 
*S-W: O 3 
IM 96 
 
 
M/TU 83 
*S-W: O 4 
A 231 
 

And there it is!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 23 Apr 2006 03:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 22 Apr 2006 05:23 am    
By Enda80

(Marvel Two-In-One#33 (fb) - BTS) - Unwilling to give up on obtaining Modred as an apprentice, "Merlin" placed four elementals at Stonehenge and sent them forward in time to find Modred when he might awaken, and bring Modred back in time to serve him. These elementals arrived in the modern era when Modred had revived, but they were destroyed by Modred, with a little help from the Thing and Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew). 

from marvunapp.com 

Actually, the Thing and Spider-Woman did not really fight Modred in that issue. By the way, does Merlin Demonspawn deserve a BTS? 

Miles Warren, is, of course, the Jackal. The reviled clone saga of course established his connection with Wundagore. 

The Avengers Handbook confirms that Wanda and Pietro spent time in stasis. I should note that their birth probably took place around 1958 (due to the fact that Magneto's first daughter was about 12 when she died, and W&P were born after that death). 


"He couldnt have been working for Hydra on Wundagore in the 1930s, because Strucker didnt form Hydra until the 1940s. " 

Oh, about Hydra; as I understand it, Hydra was actually started by State Shinto Militarists before Strucker joined them in the 1940's (after the events of Sgt. Fury#29 or so). I guess they were sort of a Black Dragons style group. Since the State Shinto Militarists were encroaching on China since the 1930's, I guess it is possible that they could have existed as far back as the 1930's, but were not called Hydra (the Handbook indicates that Strucker came up with that name). 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/supremehydracs.htm 

The werewolf in these stories, per the Horror Handbook, is a grand-father or great-grandfather of Jack Russell, not his father. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/russoffgregorww.htm

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Posted: 22 Apr 2006 10:23 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
(Marvel Two-In-One#33 (fb) - BTS) - Unwilling to give up on obtaining Modred as an apprentice, "Merlin" placed four elementals at Stonehenge and sent them forward in time to find Modred when he might awaken, and bring Modred back in time to serve him. These elementals arrived in the modern era when Modred had revived, but they were destroyed by Modred, with a little help from the Thing and Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew). 

from marvunapp.com  


One more time. Do not use other sites as a source. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 09:12 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
The Wundagore house was established in PUN@ 1/3 as the ancestral home of Merriems family, so that fits. However, she didnt inherit it until Jessica was already between the age of 3 and 5. They couldnt have been living there and conducting scientific experiments before she was born, and then give birth to her at Wundagore, because they had to renovate the place to accommodate for the research after she was born. That labels pg1-pg9 as a false history. However, Jessica didnt experience pg1-pg9, so why would they bother? 
<<<

It's possible that the relative who willed the Drews the house had been letting them stay there before their death. One would assume that they wouldn't be renovating the house for their own uses if someone else still owned it. 

-Sean

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Posted: 24 Apr 2006 10:56 pm    
By Col_Fury

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
It's possible that the relative who willed the Drews the house had been letting them stay there before their death. One would assume that they wouldn't be renovating the house for their own uses if someone else still owned it.  
<<<

It's possible that the Drews were staying there previous to Merriem inheriting it, but the house as presented in the first nine pages of Spider-Woman: Origin 1 was already set up as a scientific facility, complete with laboratories and a gigantic 'DNA Compiler.' They even had a team of scientists working with them at that point. 

On the one hand, that would mean that they had to renovate the place to compensate for all of that equipment before Jessica was born. But why would they have to renovate it again when they teamed up with Herbert?(the eventual High Evolutionary, not the General) 

On the other hand, who's to say that Merriem's relative wasn't also a scientist, and had the place set up already? But then again, why would they have to renovate it if it was already set up for it? 

Again, it could work, but we'd still have to explain Gen. Wyndham being there in 1930. It can't be Vermis, it's plainly not the High Evolutionary, so is he just another memory implant? And if he is, is the entire scene then, also? 

You know, for a series who's point was to clean up Spider-Woman's history, it really just made it more confusing than it ever had been...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 15 Dec 2004 11:01 pm    Post subject: New material in Marvel Saga #2-12 (assistance requested)
By SeanCurtin

In general, each issue has a splash page with new art on the first page. The splash pages in issues 3, 6, 7, 8, and 10 depict previously established scenes, redrawn with new art but not containing new material (and often omitting some images or dialogue). Issue 5 contains no new art. Issue 11's first page is a pair of generic shots of the original lineups of X-Factor and the X-Men, respectively. Of the remaining issues: 

Issue #2 page 1 splash page: Gen. Fredericks addresses the press, telling them that the Fantastic Four are a threat to national security. Possibly a retelling of a scene from FF 2. 

Issue #3 page 1 splash page: retelling of three panels from FF 4. 
Issue #3 pages 2-3: Material covering the history of Atlantis; some are probably redrawn panels from Sub-Mariner stories. 
p2pn1: King Kull (not explicitly named here) stands over some slain enemies. 
p2pn2: Deviants driving their human slaves. 
p2pn3: The Atlanteans instigate a volcanic eruption to drive off the Deviants. Kamuu I and Zartra I are mentioned in the caption and could be considered BTS. 
p2pn4: The Deviants attack the Celestials' ship. 
p3pn4: The Great Cataclysm destroys Atlantis. Here, only the destruction of the city of Atlantis itself is discernable, though the rest of the continent follows soon after. 
p3pn2: The ghosts of Kamuu I and Zartra I appear to Kamuu II. 
p3pn3: Generic shot of Thakorr's relocated Atlantis. The caption suggests that Thakorr would be BTS here. 
p3pn4: Captain MacKenzie's men places their depth charges; 
p3pn5: the depth charges go off, damaging Atlantis. 

Issue #4: Splash page of Fred Duncan and his assistant Bill viewing film of Cyclops, between panels of UX 38/2 (specifically, immediately after the panel in which Scott is seen holding his glasses and facing the reader; here, the same people are positioned identically, but the glasses are up and energy is just starting to come out of his eyes). 

Issue #6: The splash page on p1 is a redrawn scene, but page 20 contains new, if fairly generic, material on the Nine Worlds of Asgard. 
p20pn1: Generic shot of Asgard and Bifrost. 
p20pn2: Early Viking worshippers of the Asgardians kneeling before an idol. The idol doesn't resemble any particular Marvel Asgardian. 
p20pn3: Thor (w/Mjolnir) and another figure with a sword and a shield versus the Frost Giants in Jotunheim. 
p20pn4: Malekith the Accursed ruling over Svartalfheim. 
p20pn5: Hela floating about in Hel. 
Given the context of the bridging text, these scenes should probably be placed close together chronologically. 

Issue #9: Pages 1-4 are new and/or redrawn material from or based on UX 56/2. 

Issue #12: The splash page on page 1 is probably a redrawn scene from A 3: Iron Man is blasting Namor, both are in midair, while Giant-Man reaches at the latter; and the Hulk swings at and misses Thor while the Wasp flies by. New panels on p5-7 and p9 panel 4 are based on scenes from JIM 99-100 and TOS 50, respectively, though they might contain new material. 

-Sean

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 08:10 am    
By jephyork
Director

Hah. 

I'm in the middle of a similar project right now... 

The books are at home, but there's actually more new material than just this. I'll see if I can post my findings tonight. 

Good topic! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 07:50 pm    
By Dhall

Wait a minute, I thought we did not include new material in a book that consists mostly of redrawn or retold pages. 

It was my understanding that we had ruled out going through issues like this, and picking out the canon material..... 

Dave H

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 08:14 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We don't pick out canon material from non-canon books. Marvel Saga is canon. 


watching: biography in the news

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 08:56 pm    
By Dhall

Are we sure about that? It seems to fall into the same catagory of material (reprint/retelling books) that we usually declare non-canon.

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Posted: 16 Dec 2004 09:59 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Without addressing the issue of Marvel Saga, let me clear up some possible confusion, at least if I'm reading you right. 

We've never declared reprints non-canon (assuming they're reprinting canon stories). We just don't include them in the chronologies because they're repeating events that are already covered in the chronologies. We don't do it, because there's no need to do it. 

At the same time, it's possible for a reprint to include new events. As long as they don't contradict the original stories, we try to place them. For instance, check Marvel Girl's chronology: 

M/TU 23 
GSX 1-FB 
GSX 1 
CX 1 
CX 27/2 
CX 1 
UX 94 

The CX is Classic X-Men. New scenes in Classic X-Men were inserted into Marvel Girl's chronology. "Reprint scenes" were ignored for the purposes of a listing, but nothing there renders them "non-canon," as a quick glance at the Non Canon list on the FAQ shows. 

Retellings can be trickier. If they're showing events that have already been shown, then they're ignored (which, again, doesn't make them not canon). If they're showing new events that don't contradict previous stories, then those particular events (not the entire retelling) are added. If the retelling contradicts previously told events, or is in any other way impossible to place, then they're not canon, just like any other canon ruling. 

Now to get back to Marvel Saga... 

If there are new scenes in Marvel Saga (and I mean NEW, not just, say, a different camera angle) which don't contradict canon--and I can't imagine Marvel Saga contradicting canon--then I think those scenes should be added. 


watching: star trek the next generation

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Posted: 17 Dec 2004 08:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay -- here are my notes, such as they are, on Marvel Saga #1-6. I'm pretty sure #1 was covered somewhere else, but I can't seem to find the thread -- so we'll have to wade through it again. 

These notes mainly hit on my particular area of X-pertise -- so alternate analyses of any new/altered non-mutant events that I might have missed would be welcome. 

I'll hold off on suggestions for chronological placement of new stuff until I've revised and posted my notes on #7-12. 

Enjoy! 

-Jeph! 

---- 

Marvel Saga #1 

p.1  generic "floating-head" shot of Galactus, the Watchers, a Kree and a Skrull in combat, and a Celestial ship. 

p.2 panel 1  "roughly one million years ago". Generic shots of Eternals, Deviants, and early mankind, with a Celestial in shadow above them all. The dialogue describes how the Celestials created the Eternals and Deviants  but I'm unsure if these figures are supposed to represent any specific characters ("the first Eternal", or the like). 

p.2 panel 2  "25,000 years ago". The dialogue describes how the Kree created the Inhumans, but all we see are three pink-skinned characters  one with a cape and hands steaming with energy  and a Kree Sentry. Are these the Kree scientists? or the first Inhumans? And the dialogue mentions that a Kree Sentry later encountered the Inhumans  is this the same Sentry? 

p.2 panel 3  the Great Cataclysm. No characters shown  just a great city (Atlantis?) being destroyed. 

p.2 panel 4  Conan the Barbarian and Red Sonja face down a shadowed wizard. I don't know if this is new material or not  did Conan and Red Sonja ever team up and battle a wizard in a pre-existing comic? 

p.2 panel 5  Hercules wrestles a lion. This is "the times of legend, when beings such as Hercules and Thor first walked the earth"  so it's ancient Greece. This might be new material  have we ever seen a flashback to this time period of Hercules fighting a lion? 

p.3 panel 1  "in medieval times", the original Black Knight battles a winged beast  with a dark-haired sorceress (Morgan Le Fey?) looking on. New material? 

p.3 panel 2  In the rocky 19th-century desert, Kid Colt, the Rawhide Kid, the original Night Rider and the Two-Gun Kid charge towards the camera side-by-side. Did all four ever team up? If not, then this is either a symbolic panel or new material. 

p.3 panel 3  in WWI, the original Union Jack battles Baron Blood. Likely not new material, unless the two never actually met in WWI times. 

p.3 panel 4  in WWII, Nick Fury and his Howling Commandos charge towards the camera. Present are Nick, Dum-Dum, Gabe Jones, Percy Pinkerton and Reb Ralston. Gabe blows his bugle and Nick shoots. Presumably this isn't new material. 

p.3 panel 5  Namor, the original Human Torch, Toro, Captain America and Bucky smash through a wall and confront the Red Skull, who's standing in front of several missiles with Nazi logos on them. This might constitute new material. 


pp.4-5 explicitly occur the same day that the Fantastic Four make their fateful rocket flight  in them, we see what many other future heroes were doing that day 

p.4 panel 1  Cap, frozen in ice, is worshipped by Eskimos. 

p.4 panel 2  Namor is a homeless vagrant. 

p.4 panel 3  Nick Fury stares out his office window in Washington DC, longing for more than a desk job. 

p.4 panel 4  Tony Stark is at a party, two beautiful women surrounding him. There's a full moon visible through the window. 

p.4 panel 5  Thunderbolt Ross harangues Bruce Banner as he works on gamma equipment, and Betty Ross looks on. 

p.4 panel 6  Henry Pym stares at a beaker of sub-atomic particles, deep in thought. 

p.5 panel 1  Dr. Don Blake stares at a poster of Norway in a travel agency  suddenly struck with a sudden desire to vacation there. 

p.5 panel 2  Prof. X tutors Jean Grey in her telekinetic powers. 

p.5 panel 3  Dr. Strange, recently returned from Tibet, levitates and meditates. 

p.5 panel 4  Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson, both in law school, study in a library. 

p.5 panels 5-6  Peter Parker is engrossed in a newspaper article about Reed Richards (the Bugle, "Noted Scientist Rumored Involved in Secret Space Project"), while Flash Thompson mocks him. Several other students are seen, but I don't know enough about early Spider-Man history to identify them. There's a blond girl with shoulder-length hair, a dark-haired boy, and a black-haired girl. 

---- 

I don't have #2-3 

Marvel Saga #4 

p.1  Fred Duncan and his partner Bill watch an amateur film of Scott Summers using his optic blasts in public. Fred and Bill are reciting their lines from UX #38/2 p.3 panel 6, but the film clip they're watching is different: they seem to be paused on a shot of Cyclops that's a micro-second after the shot on p.4 panel 2. (Their dialogue indicates that UX #38/2 p.3 panel 6 is the beginning of the tenth time they've watched this film  presumably the new shot here is where they paused it when watching it for the ninth time.) 

In the original film shown in UX #38/2 p.4 panel 2, Cyclops touches his sunglasses with his hands, preparing to raise them. In M/S #4 p.1, he has just raised them, and red energy burns in his eyes. The M/S panel doesn't really add anything, since it's clear from UX #38/2 p.4 panels 2-3 that Cyclops reaches up, raises his shades, and blasts the falling machinery. It's technically a new SHOT  as in, a newly-seen split-instant occurring between the split-instants seen in the two UX panels  but it doesn't add anything to the flow of action implied between the two panels. 

(And here I delve deep into How Comics Are Read, whether single panels count as split-seconds frozen in time or as representations of moving action, and whether or not new split-seconds visible along the same motion count as "new" or not) 

(My take on New Material is  it has to *add* something to the re-telling, whether it's a previously unheard line or a previously unseen action. If we heard Cyclops shout a warning before blasting, that would be new material  a new line. Or if we saw him hurl his jacket aside before blasting  that would be a previously unseen action, and thus new material. But since we already know that he blasted  and that action is adequately depicted across UX #38/2 p.4 panels 2-3  then a different split-second of his blasting action doesn't really count as a New Shot to me  because it adds no new information to the story.) 

I might consider this new material for Fred Duncan and Bill, though, because it reveals what they were physically doing  watching a different clip  in the instants before they started the video over, in UX #38/2 p.3 panel 5. Presumably in the time it took them to recite their lines from start (M/S #4 p.1) to finish (UX #38/2 p.3 panel 5), they stopped looking at the paused shot of Cyclops and re-started the film from the beginning. 


p.17 panel 3  slightly altered dialogue from Prof. X (from UX #42/2 p.5 panel 6): "Now you are ready" becomes "and now you are ready". Again, nothing new is added by this alteration, so I don't consider it a "new line". 

---- 

Marvel Saga #5 

p.24 panel 1  slightly altered dialogue from the Angel and his classmate (from UX #54/2 p.5 panel 5): "Chicken Licken" becomes "Chicken Little", and "Mr. Wise-acre of 1963" became "Mr. Wise-acre Worthington". Nothing new added by this. 

pp.31-32  Iceman's attackers, Rocky Beasley and co. from UX #44/2 p.2, have  for some reason  had their faces substantially redrawn. 

---- 

Marvel Saga #6 

p.1  a redrawn splash of UX #44/2 p.2 panel 5, with slightly altered dialogue: 

old: 
"I don't have any choice! I'll have to risk it!" 
"What in  he covered Rock with snow! he just tossed it from his hand!" 

new: 
"I don't have any choice! I'll have to risk it and use my freezing power on him!" 
"What in!? He covered Rocky with ice!" 

Judge for yourself whether the added thought fragment counts as new material for Iceman. I vote No, since the original line "risk it" already implies "use my power"  spelling it out adds nothing. By the way, this new panel shows a third-quarter crescent moon (facing this way  C ), even though UX #44/2 p.3 panel 4, reprinted here on p.2 panel 4, shows the usual full moon. 


p.2 panel 5  William Drake's line "Oh my God" (from UX #44/2 p.3 panel 5) altered to "Oh, no!" 

p.3 panel 2  William Drake's name in the narrative caption is fixed (from the accidental "Robert Drake" in UX #44/2 p.4 panel 2). 

pp.3-6  the word "sheriff" (from UX #44/2 through 46/2) is consistently replaced with "police" or "chief". 

p.3 panel 6  Cyclops' costume is corrected from the yellow-and-blue torso (seen in UX #44/2 p.5 panel 4) to the wraparound-yellow torso depicted throughout UX #45/2. 

p.4 panel 1  a new camera angle showing Cyclops blasting a hole through Iceman's prison wall (from UX #44/2 p.5 panel 7). In the original panel, Cyclops is off-panel  here he's shown on-panel. (Oddly, UX #45/2 establishes that Cyclops blew the bars off the window, but this new panel shows him blasting a hole through the wall.) I doubt this constitutes new material, unless you'd like Cyclops' entry to read: 

 
UX 44/2 
UX 44/2 -BTS ~ M/S 6 
UX 45/2 
 


p.6 panel 4  slightly altered dialogue from Cyclops (from UX #45/2 p.5 panel 6): "Now we'll be at the mercy of" becomes "Now we'll be at the mercy of the mob!" New material? 

pp.11-12  the Puppet Master's face (from M/TU #6 pp.5-7) is substantially redrawn to resemble his traditional look  thick lips and big eyes with heavy lashes. 

p.20  generic shots of various locales in Asgard: 

p.20 panel 1  Asgard seen from space, the rainbow bridge stretching outwards. 

p.20 panel 2  "in the days of the Vikings", two Norsemen worship a blazing Asgardian idol. 

p.20 panel 3  in Jotunheim, Thor and another warrior face two Frost Giants in battle. Probably easily linkable to a pre-existing adventure, and not new material. 

p.20 panel 4  in Svartalfheim, Malekith sits upon his throne. 

p.20 panel 5  in Hel, Hela stands amid the souls of the dead. 

I'm unsure if these last two generic "standing around in their realm" shots constitute new material, or whether they can be linked to pre-existing similar shots -- of which I'm sure there are many. 


pp.28-32  I'm pretty sure Iron Man's origin (from TOS #39) has undergone some dialogue changes to edit out wartime topical references, but without a true copy of the original I can't pin down anything specific.

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Posted: 18 Dec 2004 12:46 pm    
By michel

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'm pretty sure #1 was covered somewhere else, but I can't seem to find the thread -- so we'll have to wade through it again. 
<<<

That was here : 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=817

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2004 10:17 pm    
By SeanCurtin

On issue #1: The flying blond Eternal in p2pn1 is, as far as I can tell, a shirtless Ikaris (who else wears pants like that?). 

The silhouetted wizard facing Conan and Red Sonja in p2pn4 is probably Kulan Gath (the headgear is a dead giveaway). Although Conan and Sonja together fought Kulan Gath around CTB 245 or so, the costumes here don't match the outfits they wore in that arc - that, and the Conan issues in question were published several years later. Kulan Gath's appearance in Marvel Team-Up esatablished that he had "died" in battle with Red Sonja; this may be a depiction of that battle, though without context it's impossible to say for certain. 

The lion that Hercules is wrestling is probably the Nemean lion. 

The kids with Flash Thompson in the Peter Parker scene might be Liz Allen, Sally Avril and Jason Ionello (the latter two having appeared in Amazing Fantasy #15 but not being named until Busiek's Amazing Fantasy/Untold Tales of Spider-Man). 

I'd disagree with your assessment that page 1 of issue #4 isn't new material. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Dec 2004 07:54 pm    
By Enda80

"The silhouetted wizard facing Conan and Red Sonja in p2pn4 is probably Kulan Gath (the headgear is a dead giveaway). Although Conan and Sonja together fought Kulan Gath around CTB 245 or so, the costumes here don't match the outfits they wore in that arc - that, and the Conan issues in question were published several years later. Kulan Gath's appearance in Marvel Team-Up esatablished that he had "died" in battle with Red Sonja; this may be a depiction of that battle, though without context it's impossible to say for certain. " 
........................................................................................................... 
When I first saw that picture in Marvel Saga#1, I guessed it as Kulan Gath, too. 

You did make a mistake though; actually, in no issue of volume 1 of Conan the Barbarian did Red Sonja and Conan fight Kulan Gath together. They did meet Varnae together. 

A few issues later, Conan met Kulan Gath, but by then Red Sonja had departed, never to appear in volume 1 of Conan the Barbarian again. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/klgath.htm 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/varnae.htm 

An alternate Earth version of Kulan Gath will appear soon in Exiles.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Dec 2004 10:27 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
You did make a mistake though; actually, in no issue of volume 1 of Conan the Barbarian did Red Sonja and Conan fight Kulan Gath together. They did meet Varnae together. 
<<<

Good point! My error. 


Quote: 
>>>
An alternate Earth version of Kulan Gath will appear soon in Exiles. 
<<<

"Is appearing", actually - part 2 of that storyline just came out. And there was another alternate universe version in Paradise X: The Heralds. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2004 08:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
The lion that Hercules is wrestling is probably the Nemean lion. 
<<<

Does that make it new material, or have we seen Herc's battle with the Nemean Lion before? 

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
I'd disagree with your assessment that page 1 of issue #4 isn't new material. 
<<<

Fair enough, but -- can you give me your rationale? I went fairly in-depth on why I didn't take it as anything "new", even though it's technically a split-instant we've never seen depicted before ... could you rebut? 

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
in no issue of volume 1 of Conan the Barbarian did Red Sonja and Conan fight Kulan Gath together. 
<<<

So -- does that mean this panel is new material? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2004 09:54 am    
By Enda80

It could count as new material. Where to locate it? 

Well, the Flame and the Fiend mini-series was Kulan Gath' last recorded Hyborian era adventure, so it must follow that. He had no encounters with the famed Cimmerian inbetween #15 and #253. 

Sidebar: Saga, towards the end, did articles chronologizing the various Hyborian Era stories......glad they did, or else there would be no way for to tell how to. However, they stopped at 1995, so anything else we don't have. 

Red Sonja's encounter will Kulan Gath must follow the Flame and the Fiend mini-series, which has to take place after SSOC#233 (see link below on Fafnir Helland). Where it would fall in Sonja's chronology would be hard to say. Check out Saga#96 and SSOC#230 for Sonja chronology articles (though they exclude Red Sonja Scavenger Hunt and Conan the Savage#9). Sonja's last recorded Hyborian adventures after SSOC#233 were in 

Savage Sword of Conan 144 "The Waiting Doom" 
Savage Sword of Conan 145 "Feast of the Stag" 
Savage Sword of Conan 179 "Fury of the Iron Damsels" 
Conan the King 28 "Call of the Wild" 

So, if we decide that it was definetly Kulan Gath, then it must follow The Flame and the Fiend and precede Team-Up#79 for Kulan Gath. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/fafnirhh.htm 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=80&highlight=sonja

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2004 10:10 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
the Flame and the Fiend mini-series was Kulan Gath' last recorded Hyborian era adventure, so it must follow that. 
<<<

Why? 


Quote: 
>>>
He had no encounters with the famed Cimmerian inbetween #15 and #253. 
<<<

Does #253 explicitly state that Conan hadn't run into Kulan Gath since #15? 

And if so -- could this new material potentially take place after #253, but before the "Flame and the Fiend" mini? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2004 11:39 am    
By Enda80

From what I recall; 

In #253, Conan sees Kulan Gath in his new body*. Conan asks Gath, whom he of course does not recognize due to his new body, his name. When Kulan Gath identifies himself as Gath ("I am called Kulan Gath"), Conan accuses him of lying, because he fought Kulan Gath 10 years earlier.* 

So, this shows that #253 was Conan's first battle with Gath since #15. 

The Flame and the Fiend must follow CTB I#260 because Gath is resurrected in that mini-series from the destruction he suffered at Shuma-Gorath in CTB I#260. 

*Gath survived his apparent death in #15 by his soul jumping into someone's body, as noted in dialogue in #259. 

*Twenty years publishing time for us.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2004 12:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So, basically Conan thought him dead between #15 and #253 -- and he was definitely dead between #260 and "Flame and the Fiend". 

Just for the sake of argument -- what about between #253-260? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2004 12:39 pm    
By Enda80

"Just for the sake of argument -- what about between #253-260?" 


I do not have the issues to hand, or Red Sonja's next meeting with Conan, but from what I recall: 

Red Sonja departed from Conan in #250 or so, heading with Zula to Turan. Conan, on the other hands, heads to Cimmeria with Hobb in #252, and later travels to Hyperborea (or an outpost of ancient Hyperborea). It would be very stretched to try to fit in another meeting of Conan and Sonja. 

In #256, Gath sends him image to Conan. In #257, Conan bodily meets up with Kulan Gath again. They work together, flying to Cimmeria on a bone dragon. I don't recall any lacunae where Conan can (A) meet up with Red Sonja again and (B) fight Kulan Gath with her. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/vammat.htm 

Take a squint yourself..........

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2004 08:50 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
The lion that Hercules is wrestling is probably the Nemean lion. 
<<<

Does that make it new material, or have we seen Herc's battle with the Nemean Lion before? 
<<<

I don't believe that that any of Hercules' Labors (of which this was one) have been depicted on panel in the MU. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
I'd disagree with your assessment that page 1 of issue #4 isn't new material. 
<<<

Fair enough, but -- can you give me your rationale? I went fairly in-depth on why I didn't take it as anything "new", even though it's technically a split-instant we've never seen depicted before ... could you rebut? 
<<<

Because it is a new scene that hasn't been depicted before, even though it's essentially a segue between two previously-seen scenes. 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 Dec 2004 09:39 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
I don't believe that that any of Hercules' Labors (of which this was one) have been depicted on panel in the MU. 
<<<

Although Hercules' Labors in the Marvel Universe may have been different from those in classical mythology, Hercules was shown defeating the Hydra in Hulk: Hercules Unleashed. 


watching: syracuse v. georgia tech

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Posted: 22 Dec 2004 12:21 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Because it is a new scene that hasn't been depicted before, even though it's essentially a segue between two previously-seen scenes. 
<<<

I think we're disagreeing on what a "scene" is. This, to me, is a new SHOT (single image) -- but it's part of a pre-existing SCENE (sequence of events). 

And yes, this shot occurs in an easily-definable position between panels of two shots from the original scene -- making it tempting to place it. And I *am* tempted. I've recommended similar placements for similar new shots (recently I found a shot of Colossus punching a tractor, and recommended placing it between the shots of him winding up and tractor bits flying everywhere). 

However -- things like that are pretty borderline in terms of their viability. What separates a "flashback that contains new shots" from a "re-posed flashback" that doesn't match up to the original shots, but contains nothing "new"? 

Marvel Saga #8 contains some redrawn footage of Angel's fight with gangsters from UX #55/2, and there's a lot of material that doesn't exactly match up. Is it new or is it just redrawn? For example: 

M/SAGA #8 p.30 pn 1 is a close match for UX #55/2 p.5 pn 1 -- except for some differences: 

In the M/SAGA panel, gas is billowing from the Angel's gas gun -- and one of the hoods, engulfed by gas, is pointing his gun AT the Angel. 

In the UX panel, there's no gas coming from the gun, but the hoods are engulfed in gas -- and one of the hoods is firing wild, in Angel's general direction but not right at him. 

Other than that, the panels are composed the same -- the second hood is in the same position, dropping a vial, and Angel is swooping gerenally towards them in both panels. 

Does the M/SAGA panel "come first"? Or do we discount it as a "redrawn flashback"? 

M/SAGA #8 p.30 panel 5 ~ UX #55/2 p.5 pn 2 - Angel drops his gas gun. 
M/SAGA #8 p.31 panel 1 ~ UX #55/2 p.5 pn 3 - Angel catches it. 

In UX #55/2 p.5 panel 4, he swoops up into the air after catching his falling gas gun. In panel 5, he's clutching the vial the crooks dropped earlier. 

And in M/SAGA #8 p.31 pn 2, he's kneeling on the ground and picking the vial up -- while getting a snootful of mind-altering fumes. Is THIS a new scene? 

M/SAGA #8 p.31 pn 3 is, in general, a ringer for UX #55/2 p.5 pn 6 -- Angel and Cyclops are posed the same, and the dialogue is identical -- but in the M/SAGA panel, Iceman is standing and pointing at Angel, whereas in the original UX panel he's seated and not pointing. Is this "new material" for Iceman? Or is it a redrawn flashback? 

There's got to be a line drawn somewhere ... personally, I take the scene where Angel is kneeling and picking up the vial to be a "new shot", worthy of inclusion, since it's a new action that we didn't see him take in the original comics -- but I'd take the shot where gas is billowing from his gun, and the shot where Iceman is standing and pointing, as "re-posed flashbacks" with no added information. 

One could, one the other hand, argue that Iceman standing and pointing constitutes a "new action" by him, one that's worthy of inclusion -- so this kind of thing is completely open to interpretation. I flip-flopped several times before I eventually decided that the Cyclops material in M/SAGA #4 basically added nothing of value, and could safely be considered a "re-posed shot". Your mileage can, and evidently does, vary. 

More in-depth looks at Marvel Saga #8-10 (I don't own #7 or #11-12) coming soon... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2004 12:21 pm    
By Enda80

"I don't believe that that any of Hercules' Labors (of which this was one) have been depicted on panel in the MU." 

Check out Thor I#356, which features one-panel fbs to Hercules battles with the Hydra, the Cretan Bull, and Cerberus. 

By the way, to add these fbs in, they would come around here. 

HERCULES [GREEK GOD] 
H:HU-FB 
H:HU-FB 
H:HU-FB 
H:HU-FB 
HHC 2-FB 
HHC 1-FB 
**Marvel Saga 1 
**Thor 356-FB 
**A 39-FB 
M/PRV 10/2 
A 265-FB 
{JIM@ 1} 
T@ 5 

Note that the fb occurs in Avengers 39, not 38.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2004 03:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
By the way, to add these fbs in, they would come around here. 
<<<

Do you have Hercules and Heart of Chaos? 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 22 Dec 2004 05:15 pm    
By Enda80

Do not have Hearts of Chaos. However, the Avengers#39 fb is to Hercules eigth labor, Diomedes' mares. 

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0882073.html 
I did not write this, it came from factmonster. I only add in a few notes. 

One: Kill the Nemean Lion 
This monster of a lion had a hide was so tough that no arrow could pierce it. Hercules stunned the beast with his olive-wood club and then strangled it with his bare hands. It is said that he skinned the lion, using the lion's sharp claws, and ever after wore its hide. 

(Marvel Saga#1?) 

Two: Kill the Lernean Hydra 
The evil, snakelike Hydra had nine heads. If one got hurt, two would grow in its place. But Hercules quickly sliced off the heads, while his charioteer, Iolaus, sealed the wounds with a torch. Hercules made his arrows poisonous by dipping them in the Hydra's blood. 
(T 356) 


Three: Capture the Cerynian Hind 
The goddess Artemis loved and protected this stubborn little deer, which had gold horns. Hercules found it a challenge to capture the delicate hind without hurting it (and making Artemis angry). After following the hind for an entire year, he safely carried it away. 

Four: Capture the Erymanthian Boar 
The people of Mount Erymanthus lived in fear of this deadly animal. Hercules chased the wild boar up the mountain and into a snowdrift. He then took it in a net and brought it to King Eurystheus, who was so frightened of the beast that he hid in a huge bronze jar. 

Five: Clean the Augean Stables 
Thousands of cows lived in these stables belonging to King Augeas. They had not been cleaned in 30 years, but Hercules was told to clean them completely in a single day. To do so he made two rivers bend so that they flowed into the stables, sweeping out the filth. 
(Actually performed by Gilgamesh.) 

Six: Kill the Stymphalian Birds 
These murderous birds lived around Lake Stymphalos. Their claws and beaks were sharp as metal and their feathers flew like darts. Hercules scared them out of their nests with a rattle and then killed them with the poison arrows he had made from the Hydra's blood. 

Seven: Capture the Cretan Bull 
This savage bull, kept by King Minos of Crete, was said to be insane and breathe fire. Hercules wrestled the mad beast to the ground and brought it back to King Eurystheus. Unfortunately, the king set it free, and it roamed Greece, causing terror wherever it went. 
T 356 

Eight: Capture the Horses of Diomedes 
King Diomedes, leader of the Bistones, fed his bloodthirsty horses on human flesh. Hercules and his men fought and killed King Diomedes and fed the king to his horses. This made the horses tame, so that Hercules was able to lead them to King Eurystheus. 
Avengers#39 

Nine: Take the Girdle of the Amazon Queen Hippolyte 
Hercules went to the land of the Amazons, where the queen welcomed him and agreed to give him her girdle for Eurystheus's daughter. But Hera spread the rumor that Hercules came as an enemy. In the end he had to conquer the Amazons and steal the golden belt. 

Ten: Capture the Cattle of Geryon 
Geryon, a winged monster with three human bodies, had a herd of beautiful red cattle. He guarded his prized herd with the help of a giant and a vicious two-headed dog. Hercules killed Geryon, the giant, and the dog and brought the cattle to King Eurystheus. 

Eleven: Take the Golden Apples of the Hesperides 
The Hesperides were nymphs. In their garden grew golden apples protected by Ladon, a dragon with a hundred heads. Hercules struck a bargain with Atlas, who held up the earth. Hercules shouldered the earth while Atlas, the nymphs' father, fetched the apples. 

Twelve: Capture Cerberus 
Hercules was ordered to capture Cerberus, the three-headed guard dog of the underworld, without using weapons. Hercules wrestled down the dog's wild heads, and it agreed to go with him to King Eurystheus. Cerberus was soon returned unharmed to the underworld. 
T 356

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2004 05:39 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Do not have Hearts of Chaos. However, the Avengers#39 fb is to Hercules eigth labor, Diomedes' mares. 
<<<


The reason I ask is that Hulk: Hercules Unleashed contains a flashback showing Hercules defeating the Hydra. Unless you're suggesting moving Hearts of Chaos (and I take it you're not, if you don't have the book), I'd prefer listing the Avengers flashback after the first flashback in H:HU, rather than after Hearts of Chaos. 


watching: nypd blue

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2004 08:56 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Quote: 
>>>
I think we're disagreeing on what a "scene" is. This, to me, is a new SHOT (single image) -- but it's part of a pre-existing SCENE (sequence of events). 
<<<

Good point. 


Quote: 
>>>
However -- things like that are pretty borderline in terms of their viability. What separates a "flashback that contains new shots" from a "re-posed flashback" that doesn't match up to the original shots, but contains nothing "new"? 
<<<

As I see it, a viable new shot is one that can be distinguished from the pre-existing scene and (for MCP purposes, at least) can be definitively placed chronologically. For example, the shots with Colossus punching the tractor or Angel firing his gas gun are only implied in the original stories, but aren't actually seen on panel, so the flashbacks that first show them do contain new material. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 07:04 am    
By Enda80

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Issue #2 page 1 splash page: Gen. Fredericks addresses the press, telling them that the Fantastic Four are a threat to national security. Possibly a retelling of a scene from FF 2. 
<<<


Are we sure that was Fredericks?

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2005 05:13 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The Official Index places Fredericks in FF 2. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2005 10:46 am    
By Enda80

Actually it places him in #3, not #2.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2006 02:00 pm    
By Enda80

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
On issue #1: The flying blond Eternal in p2pn1 is, as far as I can tell, a shirtless Ikaris (who else wears pants like that?). 

The silhouetted wizard facing Conan and Red Sonja in p2pn4 is probably Kulan Gath (the headgear is a dead giveaway). Although Conan and Sonja together fought Kulan Gath around CTB 245 or so, the costumes here don't match the outfits they wore in that arc - that, and the Conan issues in question were published several years later. Kulan Gath's appearance in Marvel Team-Up esatablished that he had "died" in battle with Red Sonja; this may be a depiction of that battle, though without context it's impossible to say for certain. 

The lion that Hercules is wrestling is probably the Nemean lion. 

The kids with Flash Thompson in the Peter Parker scene might be Liz Allen, Sally Avril and Jason Ionello (the latter two having appeared in Amazing Fantasy #15 but not being named until Busiek's Amazing Fantasy/Untold Tales of Spider-Man). 

I'd disagree with your assessment that page 1 of issue #4 isn't new material. 
<<<

Oddly enough, we may finally see Red Sonja face Kulan Gath in a comic book-just not a Marvel comic book. Kulan Gath will appear in Dynamite's Red Sonja#12.

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Posted: 30 Apr 2006 06:10 am    Post subject: Sable & Fortune 1-4
By Frederic Krier

Sable & Fortune 1 
Written by Brendan Cahill; painted by John Burns 
March 2006 

Appearing: Silver Sable, Berecz Fb-BTS, Artur Sobzak, Jaworski, Andreas Vadas, Joannes Boros, Dominic Fortune III, Jasper Angevine, Albasini, several unnamed Wild Pack operatives 

Synopsis: 
Page 1-4: One night. Vollmond Castle. Hamburg, Germany (looks more like the Black Forest region or even the Alps to me  maybe there are two Hamburgs in Marvels Germany?). Two of Wild Packs operatives, here referended as Beta Unit, talk about Sables authoritarian leadership of the Pack. One of them mentions a rumour she threw Berecz out the window of her office for taking her parking place. The other operative corrects this: Berecz was a mole, she had a talk with him and he jumped out of the window. Silver Sable then calls in the Beta Unit as back-up while she moves into the Castle with the Alpha Unit. However, the castle is abandoned except for a tied-up female hostage (who is unconscious or possibly even dead), who has a note attached to it, saying: Silver. A day late and a dollar short. XOXO. Sable mourns: Not again. 
Page 5-7: One day. Presumably the next day. Silver Sables Wild Pack Headquarters. Economic heart of the nation of Symkaria, in Eastern Europe. Sable, suspecting a leak within the organisation requests personal files from everyone in the facility. As it turns out, Sobczak, a new operative, didnt report in yesterday. Sable then catches another operative eating falafel on duty and tells him hes fired. The operative identifies himself as Jaworski and tells her she cant fire him, because of a law the Symkarian parliament passed last year, that requires documentation of at least three written warnings before you can get fired. Sable punches him out as warning number one. She then goes on to tell the operatives present that things have to change within the organisation, as four of [her] last ten operations [were] compromised by betrayal or incompetence. She tells the operatives to get out of her sight, as she catches one of them reading a travel catalogue during her speech. 
Page 8, p.1-3: One day. A hologram of Silver Sable announces her retirement and the dissolution of the Wild Pack, effective immediately by simulcasting to all Wild Pack Frequencies. 
Page 8, p.4-Page 11: The same day. Shortly afterwards. Sable is visited in her office by Andreas Vadas, who deals with all the stuff that [Sable doesnt] want to] in the Wild Pack. Sable tells him that he wont change her mind and reminds him of the four failed operations and a fifth failed one yesterday [its unclear if this is meant to be Hamburg; page 6 would indicate Hamburg was the fourth failed mission]. Vadas agrees that the Wild Pack is a bureaucratic mess, but tells her he is going to miss her. He leaves her with a flight ticket to France and a CD, containing his personal case notes on the Hamburg operation. This include information that there is a high possibility Comm./Optech. Artur Sobczak and Unit Commander Joannes Boros have compromised Hamburg, and that both have gone AWOL, their probable location is identified as the South of France. The CD also includes the code word Single Malt Sunrise. 
Page 12-16: One night. Two weeks later. Nuages argentes Casino, Monte Carlo, Monaco. While playing at the Casino, Sable hears a dark-haired guy ordering a Single Malt Sunrise, a drink the waitress obviously doesnt know. The guy introduces himself as Dominic Fortune, Private Investigator. After a moment, Sable remembers: Wait  Dominic Fortune? As in brigand, adventurer? Circa 1930? That Dominic Fortune? The years have been kind?  You might say that. (see notes). Fortune informs her that her contact is dead, but he got to him before he died and knows where the two rogue agents are. He also tells her hes not a fighter and needs her skills to get to them. He does have a high tolerance for pain however. He also informs her that there is only a 20 to 24-hour window before the two guys move on. 
Page 17-21 p.1: One day. Presumably the following day. Sunrise. Green trees,possibly late Summer. Toulon, France. Outside of a barn. Sable first drops a spider to deal with possible defense systems. She then storms into the hiding place. She and her back-up Fortune quickly manage to overcome both Sobczak and Boros, who are both unconscious and wounded by Sables gunfire. Fortune unties their hostage, one Jasper Angevine. Sable thinks he may have been used as a Guinea pig, just like the girl in Hamburg. 
Page 20 p. 6  page 22. We first hear than see two men watching the happenings in Toulon. They identify Fortune as an anomaly. While Fortune ponders the meaning of the code word Single Malt Sunrise, we see Angevine on the TV screen grasping for a machine gun. One of the guys is adressed to as M. Albasini. The final page reveals us the other: none other than Andreas Vadas himself. A map behind the two shows us six names marked on a map: Alexei Zubilov in Russia, Cardinal Bayle in Rome, Tabansi Mugabe in Libya, Prime Minister Koizumi in Japan, Senator Les Rickenbacker and Kirk Applewood in the US. Albasini and Vadas agree to do business and to kill some Infidels. A gunshot is heard from the TV set. 


Sable & Fortune 2 
Written by Brendan Cahill; painted by John Burns 
April 2006 

Appearing: Silver Sable, Dominic Fortune III, Jasper Angevine, Artur Sobzak, Joannes Boros, Summerville BTS, Mr. Angevine BTS, Silver Wolf [Andreas Vadas], Jaworski BTS, several unnamed ex-Wild Pack Operatives 

Synopsis: 
Page 1-3: One day. Immediately following #1. Angevine shoots at our heroes, but is quickly punched out by Sable. Sable and Fortune figure out that he was triggered by the phrase Single Malt Sunrise. Sable spots the spider she had dropped earlier and suspects whos behind all this. Sobzak and Boros are still unconscious, their further fate is unknown. 
Page 4-9: One day. Safe House, Marseille, France. Presumably several hours after page 3. Angevine regains his senses. Sable tries to reach several of her contacts, including one called Summerville unsuccessfully. Then Angevine calls his father to tell him where he is. Angevine is revealed as a student in computer security at Oxford University. Sable wants to engage him as an Optech Expert, though Fortune is sceptical. Angevine agrees to cooperate. 
Page 10-11: One night. Presumably several hours after page 9. On the flight to Symkaria, Sable and Fortune discuss the details of the upcoming operation and the morals of suckering Angevine into this. 
Page 12-22: One evening. [On page 12, the background gradually grows darker outside Vadas window]. Presumably the next day. Sable confronts Vadas in his private appartment. Meanwhile Fortune has disguised himself as a guard and asks if he can use the appartment next to Vadas, as he has a girl coming over. To a guard [who all seem to be former Wild Pack men] who asks if it wasnt Jaworskis turn to take over the next guard duty. The other guard is a bit sceptical, as Vad  I mean Silver Wolf is cracking down and caught one of the upstairs guys asleep a couple of nights earlier. Fortune still manages to convince them of letting him in by promising the guards to shoot photos of the lingerie model that is coming to see him. Fortune manages to install a tracking unit that allows Angevine (whos following all of this from an unspecified location, presumably Marseilles). However four guards break in to catch him in action with the model. Both Fortune and Sable have to flee, but Fortune only manages to get to the toilet where he is wounded by a gunshot. 


Sable & Fortune 3 
Written by Brendan Cahill; painted by John Burns 
May 2006 

Appearing: Silver Sable, Dominic Fortune III, Jasper Angevine, Silver Wolf [Andreas Vadas], Albasini, several unnamed ex-Wild Pack Operatives, several unnamed Sword of Glory members, Tom [TV newsspeaker] BTS, Susan [TV newsspeaker] BTS, Governor Pataki BTS. 

Page 1-4: One night. Immediately following #3. Sable manages to rescue the wounded Fortune. The guard who had wounded Fortune falls to his presumable death. 
Page 5-7: One day. Safe House, Marseilles, France. At least several hours after page 4. While Sable and Fortune discuss the failed mission in Symkaria, Angevine manages to hack himself into Vadas files. As it seems, Vadas is selling the serum that turns people into killers to a North African terrorist group called the Sword of Glory. The sale is going to take place the night after tomorrow in Victor von Dooms castle in upstate New York, where Sable ate dinner a few times. Angevine also finds out that there are six more sleepers out there who have been injected the serum who are currently on stand-by. 
Page 8-21 p.3: One night. Castle Von Doom. Upstate New York, U.S.A., the night after the day following page 7. Albasini and Vadas, now in his Silver Wolf armour proceed to conclude their deal. Vadas offers him the serum and as a bonus the program that gives the order to the sleepers to eliminate the six targets (as identified on the map in #1). However, Angevine manages to interrupt the execution of the program with a virus. Sable and Fortune then attack Vadas and Albasini and their men. Fortune knocks out Angevine with stone to prevent him from playing hero, but he is punched out by Albasini who grasps the boys laptop and wants to run the program from there. He is shot in the head by Sable before he can start the program. Vadas manages to escape. 
Page 21 p.4  page 22: One night [?]. Safe House, Newark, New Jersey. Several hours later. Sable and Fortune watch the events at Castle von Doom on TV, while Angevine is taking a nap. An unidentified man dressed as the nineteen-thirties adventurer Dominic Fortune is credited with single-handedly busting a terrorist arms deal and allowing the arrest of four wanted terrorists. Fortune is called a hero by Governor Pataki and asked to step forward. Sable and Fortune agree to team up, with her as boss and him acting as a public front, a bona fide media darling. 


Sable & Fortune 4 
Written by Brendan Cahill; drawn by Laurenn McCubbin 
June 2006 

Appearing: Dominic Fortune III, Sam Kurokawa, unnamed Italian sleeper, Kirk Applewood BTS, Bad Sebastian, Berecz 

Synopsis: 
Page 1-2: One night. San Diego. California. U.S.A.. Dominic Fortune shares a drink with an asiatic looking woman at Nunus Cocktails Dinner and tells her about the problems he has with his new boss. 
Page 3-6: FB to Seventy-two hours later [obviously its meant to say Seventy-hours EARLIER!]. Rome, Italy. Sable and Fortune pass an antidote to one of the sleepers, an Italian. Now of the six sleepers, five have gotten the antidote. But as Fortune and Sable move into their car, they hear a breaking news report on the radio: Kirk Applewood, Vice President of Operations for Smith-Locke Aerospace, has been found stabbed to death in his office in Biloxi, Mississippi. 
Page 7: One night. Fortune continues discussing his boss. 
Page 8-11: FB to Fifty hours earlier. Long Island, New York. Fortune and Sable meet a stereotypical gay man who introduces himself as Bad Sebastian, an old friend of Sables, who only agreed to come after he heard that Fortune would be along as well, of whom he has heard so much, hes the talk of the town, first the thing in Queens with the little girl, then the English boy they tried to make into an assassin. Sebastian flirts quite heavily with Fortune, until Sable interrupts the ladies and asks Sebastian to deliver the information he had. Sebastian reveals that hes been doing some industrial espionage for Stark Industries, and, as Anthony Stark competes with Applewood, find out that Applewood had rooted out a little crew at Smith-Locke that was involved in an arms deal with the Sword of Glory. Sebastian also has a photo of Applewoods employee Sam Kurokawa with an ex-Wild Pack soldier - Berecz [mentioned on page 1, #1]  who probably has administered the serum to her, making her Applewoods killer. 
Page 12: One night. More talking and drinking in San Diego. The asian woman mentions she needs a job, and could help Fortune with his PR. 
Page 13-14: FB to Twenty-seven hours earlier. Budapest, Hungary. Sable and Fortune interrogate Berecz, who admits, after being heavily beaten up, that he activated the sleeper Kurokawa  he mistook the abort command sent by Sable and Fortune as an activation command. 
Page 15-18: One night. Sam Kurokawa (the asian woman) realizes Fortune is actually talking about her and runs out of the dinner only to be intercepted and administered the antidote by Fortune. 
Page 19-22: One night. Sam Kurokawas condo. San Diegos East village. Not too far from the dinner. Sam talks about finding out that she killed Applewood. Fortune invites her to join them as a PR person. Sable reluctantly agrees when Fortune reminds her how she recruited Angevine. The beginning 


Notes: 
- The series was originally meant to run for six issues, but was cut down to four by issue two. Explanations were given by editor John Barber in #3: circumstances dictated that the miniseries be cut down to four issues. Fortunately (so to speak), it worked out very well with the story we were telling  the last couple issues were planned to be a stand-alone adventure. The circumstances might have been extremely low sales, the fact that John Burns was not available beyond issue 3, or a combination of both. 
- Silver Sable last appeared, to the best of my knowledge, in Thunderbolts # 75. 
- The exact relationship between the Dominic Fortune in this series and his two predecessors remains unclarified. His whole behaviour (the scene with Bad Sebastian in #4 might indicate that hes supposed to be gay, not necessarily though) and especially his lack of fighting skills make him seem to be a new character rather than a rejuvenated Duvid Fortunov, as was speculated in ANOHOTMU #3. 
- Silver Sable and Dominic Fortune I actually teamed up before, in Web of Spider-Man #71 and #72 (which is also Dominic Fortune Is last appearance to date). This is not referenced in this story, which also would indicate this is a new Dominic Fortune. The dialogue in the casino in #1 does not contradict the prior meeting with Fortune either; Sable is being ironic and clearly does not believe this to be the guy from the 1930s. 
- None of the other characters from this series has appeared before, though of course all of the Wild Pack soldiers could have appeared in former Silver Sable appearances without being identified. Also note that there no superpowered Wild Pack operatives are appearing anywhere in this series. 
- Dr. Dooms castle in upstate New York might be the replica castle seen before in Marvel Super-Heroes #20 (and possibly other places?).

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2006 07:57 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Frederic! 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2006 09:15 am    
By Enda80

"- Dr. Dooms castle in upstate New York might be the replica castle seen before in Marvel Super-Heroes #20 (and possibly other places?)." 

Around August and September of 2003, the issue of Doctor Doom's time machine came up on the boards, and by extension his New York Castle. 

The first time machine was the one in his castle in the Adironacks in the US. This first appeared in FF I#5. As noted by Olshevsky in FF Index#1, X-Men I#145 revealed that this time machine was in his castle in the Adriondacks Mountains. The time machine then appears in FF I#19, still in the castle. In FF#23, it was salvaged and brought to the Baxter Building. At some point after #23 but before Avengers I#56, the time machine was returned to the Adironacks castle. FF Annual#11 reveals that Doom used diplomatic pressure to get the time machine returned to his New York castle. However, Richards made a duplicate of it. Also, Avengers#56 coined the name "The Chrono-Square". This time machine next appeared in MSH#20, the Doom story. 

Doom, as noted by Olshevksy in Avengers Index I#7, created a duplicate of his time machine in his Latverian castle, which was first mentioned in Avengers I#137 and 139 and seen in Avengers I#140. Doom did not have one in Latveria in MSH#20, and his Adironacks castle was turned into an amusement park in MTIO#68 before he reclaimed it, so that is why they went to Latveria. This time machine in the Latverian castle next appeared in Marvel Team-Up I#41. It was used through MTU#46, then was used in MTIO#17. 

The New York castle then appears in Uncanny I#145-147 or so. 

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=1856 
Did the castle appear in Uncanny#197? 

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162793&page=3 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/liddlevilleff.htm

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 06:48 pm    Post subject: Marvel Graphic Novels
By shandrakor

There's some real mixed up info about the Marvel Graphics Novels online and I was hoping someone could help me clarify. 

What I think I've peiced together is this: 

There were 75 published which featured the words or an icon of "Marvel Graphic Novel" on the cover. 

The first 36 all had indicia titles of "Marvel Graphic Novel - something." Some, but not all, of these 36 had issue #s on the covers. 

The remainder of the 75 did not include MGN in the indicia title, and none of them feature issue #s on the cover - they're only tied to the earlier issues by format and the cover icon. 

Am I close?

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 09:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I've seen books referred to as "graphic novels" that were actually just prestige format comic books. 


watching: anderson cooper

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 09:29 pm    
By Dhall

I was actually pondering this very question this weekend, and found a list floating around. I hope this helps. 

Dave 

First, the original twenty: 
1 ("The Death of Captain Marvel") 
2 ("Elric: The Dreaming City") 
3 ("Dreadstar") 
4 ("The New Mutants") 
5 ("X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills") 
6 ("Star Slammers") 
7 ("Killraven: Warrior of the Worlds") 
8 ("Super Boxers") 
9 ("Futurians") 
10 ("Heartburst") 
11 ("Void Indigo") 
12 ("Dazzler: The Movie") 
13 ("Starstruck: The Luckless, The Abandoned And The Forsaked") 
14 ("Swords of the Swashbucklers") 
15 ("The Raven Banner") 
16 ("The Aladdin Effect") 
17 ("Revenge of the Living Monolith") 
18 ("The Sensational She-Hulk") 
19 ("Conan: Witch Queen of Acheron") 
20 ("Greenberg the Vampire"). 

And, numbered for your convenience, the remaining volumes in the 8.5 x 11 format: 
21 ("Marada the She-Wolf") 
22 ("Spider-Man: Hooky") 
23 ("Dr. Strange: Into Shamballa") 
24 ("Daredevil: Love & War") 
25 ("The Alien Legion: A Grey Day to Die") 
26 ("Dracula: A Symphony In Moonlight and Nightmares") 
27 ("Emperor Doom") 
28 ("Conan the Reaver") 
29 ("Hulk & Thing: The Big Change") 
30 ("A Sailor's Story") 
31 ("Wolfpack") 
32 ("Thor: Whom the Gods Would Destroy") 
33 ("Iron Man: Crash") 
34 ("The Shadow: Hitler's Astrologer") 
35 ("Cloak & Dagger: Predator and Prey") 
36 ("Willow") 
37 ("Hercules, Prince of Power: Full Circle") 
38 ("Silver Surfer: Judgment Day") 
39 ("The Inhumans") 
40 ("The Punisher: Assassins' Guild"). 
41 ("Who Framed Roger Rabbit ?") 
42 ("Conan of the Isles") 
43 ("The Dreamwalker") 
44 ("Ax") 
45 ("Arena") 
46 ("Spider-Man: Parallel Lives") 
47 ("King Kull: The Vale of Shadow") 
48 ("A Sailor's Story, Book II") 
49 ("Doctor Strange & Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment") 
50 ("Wolverine & Nick Fury: The Scorpio Connection") 
51 ("The Punisher: Intruder") 
52 ("Neuromancer") 
53 ("Conan: The Skull of Set") 
54 ("Roger Rabbit: The Resurrection of Doom") 
55 ("Squadron Supreme: Death of a Universe") 
56 ("Cloak & Dagger and Power Pack: Shelter From the Storm") 
57 ("Rick Mason: The Agent") 
58 ("Silver Surfer: The Enslavers") 
59 ("Conan: The Horn of Azoth") 
60 ("Rio Rides Again") 
61 ("Black Widow: The Coldest War") 
62 ("Ka-Zar: Guns of the Savage Land") 
63 ("Spider-Man: Spirits of the Earth") 
64 ("Punisher: Kingdom Gone") 
65 ("Wolverine: Bloodlust") 
66 ("Excalibur: Weird War III") 
67 ("Wolverine: Bloody Choices") 
68 ("Avengers: Death Trap, The Vault") 
69 ("Conan the Rogue") 
70 ("Punisher: Blood On the Moors") 
71 ("Silver Surfer: Homecoming") 
72 ("Spider-Man: Fear Itself") 
73 ("Conan: The Ravagers Out of Time") 
74 ("Punisher & Black Widow: Spinning Doomsday's Web") 
75 ("Daredevil & Black Widow: Abattoir"). 

And then are graphic novels from other imprints. From Marvel UK, between 1985 and 1991, 
1 "Doctor Who: Voyager," 
2 "Death's Head: The Body In Question," 
3 "Genghis Grimtoad," 
4 "Abslom Daak: Dalek Hunter," 
5 "Night Raven: The Collected Stories" 
6 "Night Raven: House of Cards." 

Finally, we have the Epic Graphic Novels (1987-1994). 
1 ("Moebius 1 - Upon A Star") 
2 ("Moebius 2 - Arzach & Other Fantasy Stories") 
3 ("Moebius 3 - The Airtight Garage") 
4 ("Moebius 4 - The Long Tomorrow & Other Science Fiction Stories") 
5 ("The Death of Groo") 
6 ("Moebius 5 - The Gardens Of Aedena") 
7 ("Moebius 6 - Pharagonesia & Other Strange Stories") 
8 ("Last of the Dragons") 
9 ("The Incal 1") 
10 ("Someplace Strange" ) 
11 ("The Incal 2") 
12 ("The Incal 3") 
13 ("The Punisher: Return to Big Nothing") 
14 ("Blueberry 1 - Chihuahua Pearl") 
15 ("Blueberry 2 - Ballad For A Coffin") 
16 (" Blueberry 3 - Angel Face") 
17 ("Blueberry 4 - Ghost Tribe") 
18 ("Blueberry 5 - End Of The Trail") 
19 ("Jhereg") 
20 ("Moebius 7 - The Goddess") 
21 ("Moebius 8 - Mississippi River") 
22 ("Hearts And Minds") 
23 ("Lieutenant Blueberry 1: The Iron Horse") 
24 ("Lieutenant Blueberry 2: Steelfingers") 
25 ("The Original Adventures Of Cholly And Flytrap") 
26 ("Lieutenant Blueberry 3: General Golden Mane") 
27 ("Marshal Blueberry 1: The Lost Dutchman's Mine") 
28 ("Moebius: Chaos") 
29 ("Sinking") 
30 ("67 Seconds") 
31 ("Moebius: Stel") . 


Note that there is a Punisher GN that somehow got published in with the Epic GN line.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 10:20 pm    
By shandrakor

Thanks for the list Dave, but I've still got a problem. 

The above list seems to be correct that cover numbering stopped with issue 20. All the online sources I've found agree that the magazine-size MGN format published 75 books. 

However the three major sites I know of (UHBMCC, Comics.org and Comics-db.com) all number the first 38 issues instead of the first 20. For some reason, the first 38 books are generally considered to be part of a Marvel Graphic Novels series. 

My question is this: if the cover numbering stops after #20, and the format stayed the same throughout, what changed between #38 (Silver Surfer: Judgement Day) and #39 (The Inhumans) to bundle the first 38 together and cut everything else free?

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 08:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Just speculating, but... 

Is it possible that the cover numbering stopped with #20, but they were still numbered in the indicia? 


watching: larry king

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 10:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Nope. None of the several post-#20 graphic novels I have indicate numbers in the indicia.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 10:18 pm    
By Dhall

I have the answer to this question too. 

While Marvel's numbering ended with #20, Overstreet's price Guide continued counting them as if they were numbered, through #38. Other price guides, and lists copied from Overstreet. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Dec 2005 05:32 pm   
By Enda80

You got your list from John Wells. One error; Crash was an Epic graphic novel, as seen on the cover. 

With regards to Epic canoncity 

Havok and Wolverine: Meltdown was released as part of the Epic line, an imprint for special projects. Epic started in the early 1980's, but was a casualty of the Marvel implosion of the 1990's. However, it has recently been revived. The Epic line in the 1980's mostly dealt with creator-owned projects, but now and then, company-owned properties received the Epic treatment. Since Epic often went for an esoteric approach, not all of these uses of established characters form a part of Earth-616 continuity. As noted earlier, Havok and Wolverine is completely Earth-616 canonical. However, other Epic projects were not. 


1. Epic Illustrated#1 featured a Silver Surfer story that is in-continuity, as it was cited in the Fantastic Four Index#4 entry for the Silver Surfer's first appearance in Fantastic Four I#48 as a preceding chronological appearance. 


2. The Last Galactus Story, which ran in later issues of Epic Illustrated, is, per the Handbook entry for Nova (Frankie Raye), an alternate or possible future. 


3. Silver Surfer: Parable takes place on an alternate Earth dubbed Earth-Moebius. This world was actually revisited in the Marvel UK series Cyberspace 3000, in issues #1-5 (in fact, the Marvel UK hero Dark Angel, per Cyberspace 3000#2, had an Earth-Moebius counterpart!). 


4. Elektra: Assassin takes place on Earth-616 (at some point in the modern era roughly around the time of the events of Avengers I#61) since it was referenced for Nick Fury's entries in the Avengers index, and Garrett, seen first in this series, returned circa Daredevil I#319. However, a caveat has to do with the fact that much of the series is from Elektra and Garrett's point of view, and their peculiar mental conditions cause them to have exaggerated perceptions of events. In a Daredevil letters column, it was declared that the presidential candidate Ken Wind may or may not have existed, and in any event, Garrett's having his mind transferred into Ken Wind's body did not occur. 


5. Elektra Lives Again: Per the Master Edition entries for Bullseye and Elektra, happens in an alternate past, present, or future. Frank Miller himself once stated that it took place after Daredevil I#191 but before the Born Again storyline (the events of Elektra Lives Again contributing to Murdock's precarious mental condition in those issues). However, the return of Bullseye in the Streets of Poison storyline in Captain America, of Elektra in the Fall From Grace storyline, and a comment in the Daredevil letters page removes Elektra Lives Again from Earth-616 continuity. 


6. Tomb of Dracula III-canon per recent Handbooks 
7. Punisher: Return to the Big Nothing: In-continuity. Nothing terribly different. In fact, one wonders why this was done as an Epic project. 
8. Iron Man: Crash: An alternate or possible future. 
9. Legion of the Night: In-continuity. Referenced in Fin Fang Foom's Master Edition entry. 
10. Crimson Dynamo: Actually an upcoming project from the newly revived Epic. As yet, too early to tell either way. 


Incidentally, very few Epic books were in-continuity with each other other than the Shadowline books. The Clive Barker series were exceptions since the Hellraiser characters encountered the Harrowers, Marshal Law, and Nightbreed. Lawdog vs. Grimrod#1 was a rare case of two creator owned characters owned by different people meeting (Grimrod was a character from the Alien Legion series).

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 06:52 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Havok and Wolverine: Meltdown was released as part of the Epic line, an imprint for special projects. Epic started in the early 1980's, but was a casualty of the Marvel implosion of the 1990's. However, it has recently been revived... 
<<<

John, when you copy text from other websites, could you please give a link, or at least attribute the original author? 

-Sean

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Posted: 14 Dec 2005 10:00 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
You got your list from John Wells. 
<<<

I think that you are correct, the original list I have found did not have an attribution, or I would have listed it. However, I have since seen other copies of this same list attributed to John Wells. 

Dave

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 02:33 am    
By Enda80

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
John, when you copy text from other websites, could you please give a link, or at least attribute the original author? 
<<<


I wrote that entry in the first place.

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 08:26 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Does it bother you at all, that they didn't give you credit for that? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 15 Dec 2005 12:07 pm    
By Starman

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Silver Surfer: Parable takes place on an alternate Earth dubbed Earth-Moebius. 
<<<

A graphic novel I recommend a lot. 
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 17 Dec 2005 11:52 pm    
By OnionMan

I have also seen that list of 75 issues. But i have concluded that some of the issues should not be in it: 

33 ("Iron Man: Crash") 
Belongs to the "Epic Graphic Novel" series. 
Obvious from both cover and indicia. 

50 ("Wolverine & Nick Fury: The Scorpio Connection") 
Doubtful if this is part of the series. No "Marvel Graphic Novel" logo on the cover, and the indicia says "A Marvel Graphic Novel" wich i take to mean a graphic novel in a more generic sense. I tend to look at this one as an example of a prestige format comic book getting the MGN treatment. 

52 ("Neuromancer") 
Belongs to the "Epic Graphic Novel" series. 
Obvious from both cover and indicia. 

65 ("Wolverine: Bloodlust") 
No MGN-logo, and no reference to the MGN-title anywhere. This is just a prestige format comic book. 

68 ("Avengers: Death Trap, The Vault") 
No MGN-logo, and no reference to the MGN-title anywhere. This is just a prestige format comic book (or graphic novel not under the MGN-title). 

That brings the total number of issues to 70 (if i am correct that is). 

/ OnionMan

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Posted: 18 Dec 2005 02:55 am    
By shandrakor

Well, I'm of the opinion that if the numbering cut out after issue #20, then everything after that is just a "graphic novel" in the general sense, rather than being part of any particular series. 

But maybe that's just me.

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Posted: 23 Dec 2005 09:31 pm    
By Enda80

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Does it bother you at all, that they didn't give you credit for that? 
<<<


No. Snood pays for the site, the rest have done far more entries than I have.

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Posted: 16 Feb 2006 01:08 pm    
By Warpsmasher

OnionMan wrote: 
>>>
I have also seen that list of 75 issues. But i have concluded that some of the issues should not be in it: 

33 ("Iron Man: Crash") 
Belongs to the "Epic Graphic Novel" series. 
Obvious from both cover and indicia. 

50 ("Wolverine & Nick Fury: The Scorpio Connection") 
Doubtful if this is part of the series. No "Marvel Graphic Novel" logo on the cover, and the indicia says "A Marvel Graphic Novel" wich i take to mean a graphic novel in a more generic sense. I tend to look at this one as an example of a prestige format comic book getting the MGN treatment. 

52 ("Neuromancer") 
Belongs to the "Epic Graphic Novel" series. 
Obvious from both cover and indicia. 

65 ("Wolverine: Bloodlust") 
No MGN-logo, and no reference to the MGN-title anywhere. This is just a prestige format comic book. 

68 ("Avengers: Death Trap, The Vault") 
No MGN-logo, and no reference to the MGN-title anywhere. This is just a prestige format comic book (or graphic novel not under the MGN-title). 

That brings the total number of issues to 70 (if i am correct that is). 
<<<

Thank you for clearing this up. There is a list inside the Hercules graphic novel (which should be #36) that shows The Shadow (which should be #33) coming before Cloak & Dagger (which should be #34). I think that was the last list that was printed in the big-sized graphic novels, so that should bring the official numbering by Marvel up to 36, if you separate the Epic & Moebius stuff.

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 07:00 pm    
By Andy Grant

Deathtrap The Vault was reprinted as "just a prestige format comic", and again a second time rebranded as Venom: DeathtrapTV, but the original is in the big square MGN format and looks, smells and quacks like an MGN to me.

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Thread 46

Posted: 18 Apr 2006 05:07 pm    Post subject: Canonicity of The End
By wolframbane

Are the revelations of character backgrounds from the various 'The End' issues (like Gambit being a clone of Sinister or Wolverine's brother being institutionalized) considered canon?

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Posted: 18 Apr 2006 06:58 pm    
By Somebody

If and only if they are confirmed by an indisputably canon comic (e.g., Uncanny X-Men).

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Posted: 18 Apr 2006 07:30 pm    
by shandrakor

Considering the fact that the "real" Third Summers Brother has now been revealed, it seems unlikely that there's any plan for The End reveals to stick in 616.

			*	*	*

...again. There are already four; what difference would a fifth make? 

I would be surprised if Marvel ever references the Gambit reveal from X-Men: The End, but unless they actually come right out and say either "this is not true of Earth-616" or "this is Gambit's origin", there's no way to know for certain. Tom Brevoort's answers on this regard have been evasive enough that they can't really be considered as a concrete "yes" or no". 

-Sean

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 04:58 pm    
By rhod

The problem is that these events cannot be taken into consideration due to their 'reveal' nature. 
Using the Gambit/Sinister example, it is made clear that NOBODY knew Gambit was a clone. If this information IS ever corroborated in a canon book, it actually prevents X-Men: The End from being canon, (unless the writer tells us the reader, in narration, without any of the characters involved finding out, which would be utterly pointless). 
If the info is never corroborated, then it is not confirmed as canon, and discussion of it is irrelevant.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 06:32 pm    
By Somebody

Well, Decimatory events mean XMTE can't be the MU future anyway (While it's still running - must be unheard of for a future story to start off "potential canon" and be written off by events elsewhere BEFORE it's finished. But I digress....). Not that anyone ever expected it to be anyway as such - the argument's between people like Jeph who'd like to treat flashbacks from TEs as canon and the rest of us.

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Posted: 23 Apr 2006 11:38 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Rhod, future timelines like that, that can no longer come to pass because of events in the present day, are treated as alternate timelines -- branching off the "main" timeline just before the event in the present that invalidates it. 

(In this case, the "End" timeline clearly branches off before M-Day.) 

However, any flashbacks to a time period BEFORE the branching-off point can still have occured in the mainstream Marvel Universe. 

Now, that's how we'd treat the FBs in the "End" books, IF they were canon. Unfortunately, I don't think they are -- I'd like them to be, but I believe Tom Brevoort said flat-out that they're not -- that nothing in them, even flashbacks to the past or present, are canon. Which is a shame, I think, but hey, I don't make Marvel policy.  

-Jeph!
