	Marvel Universe Forum
1. missing appearances in UX 312 UX 313
2. Dr. Doom
3. Sentinel Squad ONE #5 chronology
4. Looking for help placing issues
5. Questions re: FOUR 29, FF 537, and CW 1
6. UX 228
7. Peggy Carter oddities
8. Avengers Chronology
9. X 76-80 corrections
10. New Spidey appearance
11. Chronological placement for characters' early reincarnations
12. missing Doom appearance
13. Deadpool question
14. Darkoth notes
15. god loves man kills
16. Red Wolf/Wildrun
17. Multiversal Singularities (was: In-Betweener question)
18. Hullk story you will hate now canon
19. Sentry #8: Am I reading this right?!?
20. Madeline Pryor question
21. DPOOL3 35-FB
22. Marvel Age notes
23. Nick Fury, post-HoM [Astonishing X-Men SPOILER]
24. OK ANYONE BORED AND WANNA HELP ME OUT?
25. Recent Spider-Woman chronology
26. X:HY 22 correction

	Issue Analysis Forum
27. Ghost Rider (2005/06) #1-6
28. Corrections to Calendar

	Chat Forum
29. Question about What If..#77 (Legion Had Killed Magneto)
30. Message from New Member
31. Emma Frost in X-Men: Deadly Genesis #5/2





Thread 1

Posted: 03 May 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: missing appearances in UX 312 UX 313
By frogcoin

hi, i was reading these comics a few weeks ago and find out some missing characters in the MCP UX 312 and UX 313, these are the ones im listing, theres quite a possibility i miss 1 or 2 more: 

UX 312 
Beast 
Bishop 
Dr. Steven Lang / Phalanx 
Gambit 
Iceman 
Jubilee 
Profesor X 
Sabretooth 
Storm 
White Queen / Emma Frost 

UX 313 
Banshee 
Beast 
Bishop 
Dr. Steven Lang / Phalanx 
Gambit 
Iceman 
Jubilee 
Profesor X 
Sabretooth 
Storm 
White Queen / Emma Frost 

In UX 313 Emma Frost mind was transferred to Iceman Body, dunno if both Should be count in this case, i think douglock also appears in UX 313

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Thread 2

Posted: 31 Dec 2005 10:57 am    Post subject: Dr. Doom
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I must have missed the story somewhere in which Dr. Doom recently returns to the throne of Latveria. But there he is in FANTASTIC FOUR SPECIAL #1, in charge at both the Latverian embassy in New York and at Castle Doom in Latveria. I was all set to place this story sometime in the past, before Reed's taking over of Latveria, but what do I see in FFS 1? A scene taking place in Avengers Tower/Stark Tower/Watchtower in which Johnny asks Spidey what it's like being an Avenger! That places FFS 1 firmly in the "present," certainly after SECWAR. So where did Doom return to retake the Latverian throne?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 12:03 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I was wondering when someone was going to bring this issue up.  

I flipped through this book at the store on Wednesday, but held off on purchasing it, saving it for next week, (there was a lot of comics that came in this last week!!!  ) 

My first thought was to declare it non-canon...unless Doom's coming back to the throne is actually explained in the next year or so, (in which case, we can shunt this issue to after that point). 

This is as bad as that issue of Spectacular Spiderman wherein the Kingpin drops by to play poker, (when he's supposed to have been in jail since DD2 50).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 31 Dec 2005 04:16 pm    
By Somebody

Who wrote the story in question? (since, if it's JMS/Bendis/other "golden boy", it's more likely to stick) 

Even if it's not a GB though, I'd be inclined to take it that yes it's canon, and yes he reclaimed his throne in an untold story unless proven otherwise (the fact that Waid obviously didn't have a clue about Doom in Unthinkable/Affirmative Action is neither here nor there, no...)

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Posted: 01 Jan 2006 09:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Another clue about the placement of FANTASTIC FOUR SPECIAL comes from the fact that Spidey finds it necessary to roll his mask up over his mouth (rather than taking the mask off entirely) in order to eat in front of Johnny. The only other person present is Cap, who already knows Spidey's secret identity. Thus I think it's safe to assume that Johnny doesn't know that Spidey is Peter Parker at this point...and that would place FFS 1 before SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH #5, in which Johnny discovers Spidey's identity.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 09:53 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Or maybe he just finds that more convenient than taking the mask off altogether - after all, you might as well ask why he's even wearing the costume at home at all. Presumably he's just dressed for action because he expects something might come up. 

I wouldn't want to yank this story way back before SM/HT 4 just for that reason.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 10:18 am    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I wouldn't want to yank this story way back before SM/HT 4 just for that reason. 
<<<

Besides, at that rate, SM/HT #5 will be "forever in the future"...

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Posted: 02 Jan 2006 05:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I wouldn't want to yank this story way back before SM/HT 4 just for that reason. 
<<<

We're talking SM/HT 5, not 4. I've never considered SM/HT 5 to have occurred "way back." In fact, I've always seen it as a little in the future relative to other comics published at the time, and other titles are catching up to it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Jan 2006 03:47 am    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So where did Doom return to retake the Latverian throne? 
<<<

I'm thinking this may happen at the end of Books of Doom, but I could be wrong...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 12:50 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Tom Brevoort responded to someone about the FF Special over at the comiXfan forums... 
Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
Have to hit you with a "wait and see" on that one--and you should, before too long in the main FF book. For publishing reasons, we had to schedule that FF SPECIAL just a bit out of its normal chronology. All will become apparent in the weeks and months to come. 
<<<

"And months"??? 

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Posted: 07 Jan 2006 06:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Oh fer cryin' out loud..."months" is going to place FF Special after SM/HT 5 for sure. Looks like the "convenient" argument about Spidey's mask may win out; although I think it would just be more comfortable not to wear a mask at all -- just have it by your side in case you need to throw it on (no biggie). And it looks like those autumn leaves in FF Special will end up being topical when they fit so well where I've placed the Special. (Sigh.) 

I suppose for the time being I'll just leave it alone and move it if and when I have to. I suppose the return of Doom could occur in flashbacks in future issues of FF; then things would be cool... 

Another "we'll see..." Gotta love 'em.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Jan 2006 01:48 pm    
By DonCampbell

According to Marvel's solicitations for April of 2006, "At a remote scientific outpost, a heavenly artifact becomes the touch-point of a conflict between the Fantastic Four and a reborn Doctor Doom!" in FANTASTIC FOUR #537 (in which "The Road to CIVIL WAR continues!"). 

DonCampbell

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Posted: 03 May 2006 11:47 pm    
By Col_Fury

Doom's back as of FF 537, and FF 538 is a Civil War tie-in. Solicitations say that... without spoiling anything... basically, FF 538 occurs after Civil War 1. 

All Four members appear in the FF Special, meaning it has to occur before Civil War 1, and therefore before FF 538. So I guess the only place for the Special to go is between FF 537 & 538, and before Civil War 1. 

Hopefully, the Death in the Family special doesn't screw things up...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 3

Posted: 03 May 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Sentinel Squad ONE #5 chronology
By Mikhail

So...this doesn't make sense, right? As far as the Day After one-shot showed, Val Cooper was apparently being inducted into ONE for the first time on M-Day, brought into the mix by Lazer, whereas SSONE #5 shows her as having been a part of the organization for months prior. There's some word play that could be massaged to make it fit, but then there's the fact that in #2, SSONE was operating in the open at a public rally weeks before their surprise introduction and explanation in X-Men #177. You'd think the X-Men would've taken notice of a new group of Sentinels now in action, yeah?

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Posted: 04 May 2006 02:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

No, what we see in the DECIMATION one-shot is that Valerie is surprised to learn that O*N*E has been activated without anyone telling her first. Nothing about it being her first contact with the organisation, as far as I can recall. Indeed, surely it's implicit from the scene that she DOES have some status with them, as otherwise she wouldn't be surprised at being cut out of the loop.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 4

Posted: 05 May 2006 05:39 am    Post subject: Looking for help placing issues
By Andowhy

Hi All, Well hopefully what I'm asking wont be too much of a request but any help would be muchly appreciated. I have below a list of the remaining titles (mainly one-shots and LS) that I have been unable to place into my chronological read order. 

I have scoured the MCP in both forums, Character pages and the excellent Marvel Calendar and my thanks go to all involved, however I have been unable to find the titles below in these resources. I have used the X-Men title as the back bone of the read order (starting at X-Men 1 (1963)) 

I am hoping some of the issues below can either be thrown out as not being in continuity or a range of placement can be suggested as to where to put it (eg. between X-Men 11 & 12). If some of the list below has already been sorted it could be Ive just missed its entry over the past few weeks ive been researching and I apologise in advance. 

Any help would be muchly appreciated. 
Regards, 
Darren 

Now to the List. 
Title (Print Year) (LS/1SH) 

Badrock & Wolverine - Savaged (1996) (1SH) 
Deadpool #00 (Wizard special 1998) (1SH) 
Deathblow & Wolverine 1-2 (UNK) (LS) 
Elektra & Wolverine - The Redeemer (2001) (LS) 
Mega Morphs 1-4 (2005) (LS) - I understand this is currently under consideration as to its canonicity 
Prophet/Cable (1997) (LS) 
Spider-Man - The Mutant Agenda (ft Beast (1994) (LS) 
Wolverine #1/2 (Wizard Special) (1SH) 
X-Babies - Murderama (1998) (1SH) 
X-Force/Youngblood (1996) (1SH) 

and lastly I am looking to work Alpha Flight vol.1 into the read order as I recently managed to purchase the whole set in one bunch and am wondering which issue range AF would start. 

Thanks again for any help. 

EDIT: Removed AT:WMB, NMSE, WLOCK4 & X51 & those already discussed.

Last edited by andowhy on 05 May 2006 10:25 am; edited 4 times in total

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Posted: 05 May 2006 06:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hi, Darren. Before folks respond to your list, are you sure you can't narrow it down by looking more carefully on this site? For instance, AVENGERS TWO is in the character chronologies as AT:WMB 1 and AT:WMB 2. Perhaps a good way to look up these titles is to consult the key for the title's code, then look up individual issues by their codes and issue numbers (e.g. "AT:WMN 1") in the search feature on the homepage. You can jump from there to individual character chronologies to see where things fall chronologically.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 May 2006 08:31 am    
By andowhy

Thanks Paul, 
I had totally missed the Search function on the main page and using this have managed to wipe a few more titles off the list. I'm working my way through it now so hopefully will be able to cull some more off by the end. I think I may get down to stuff thats either not in continuity/cross publisher titles and wizard half issues (as they dont seem to be listed from what I can gather)

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Posted: 05 May 2006 08:39 am    
By JD

My 2 cents : 

Intercompany Crossovers 
Clan Destine 1-12 (UNK) (LS) 
Gen13/Generation X (1997) (1SH) 
Team X & Team 7 (ftg Weapon X & Omega Red (1996) (1SH) 
WildCATS & X-Men 1-4 (Golden, Silver, Modern & Dark Ages 1997) (LS) 
Witchblade vs Wolverine (Image 2004) (1SH) 

Reprints 
Giant Size X-Men 2 (1975) 

Out of Continuity 
Hulk - The End (like all "The End" stories) 
Magneto & the Magnetic Men (Amalgam - fake stories) 
Phoenix - Legacy of Fire 1-3 (Mangaverse) 
Professor Xavier & the X-Men 1-18 (modern retelling of UX 1-15 with lots of differences) 
Punisher - The End (like all "The End" stories) 
Who will be the last hero standing 1-5 (MC2) 
X-Men - Ronin 1-5 (2003) (Mangaverse) 
X-Men and Power Pack 1-4 (as with all current PP minis)

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Posted: 05 May 2006 09:06 am
By jephyork
Director

ClanDestine isn't an intercompany crossover. But since the book has zero ties to the X-verse, it doesn't matter when you read it -- read it all at any point before X-Men vs. the ClanDestine #1 and you'll be fine. (By the way, issues #9-12 have been retconned out of continuity as "just a dream".) 

Gambit #1/2 should be on the MCP ... try looking under GAM3 0.5. 

Ghost Rider / Cable: Servants of the Dead and X-Men vs. Dracula are reprints. GR/C collects stories from M/CP 90-97, I think, and X/D reprints UX@ 6. 

Gus Beezer doesn't appear to take place in the Marvel Universe. 

Magneto and the Magnetic Men is an Amalgam story, but that doesn't make it "fake" -- it occurs between DC vs. Marvel #3 and 4. 

Wolverine: Global Jeopardy and Son of Canada are giveaway books, and the MCP doesn't really consider them canon yet. 

Similarly, most of those intercompany crossover books -- the ones written with the assumption that both characters live in the same universe -- aren't considered canon either. However, on your list, X-Force/Youngblood (and maybe Prophet/Cable) take the tack that both sets of characters are from different universes. Those we DO consider canon -- but I couldn't tell you when they occur.  

That's about all I can offer off the top of my head ... hope it helps narrow down your list! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 May 2006 10:26 am    
By andowhy

Thanks JD and Jeph, 
You've helped to demolish the list to a few issues, thanks for your help.

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Posted: 05 May 2006 10:28 am    
By rhod

Wasn't Wolverine:Global Jeopardy a charity fundraiser? I only point this out because one of the arguments against including giveaways in the MCP was that they were not widely available, whereas W:GJ was, as was for example Heroes for Hope etc.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Posted: 05 May 2006 04:17 pm    
By Jason Doty

Tentative placement for both Youngblood/X-Force, then X-Force/Youngblood is right around X-Force no.51 

Prophet/Cable no.1 &2 would follow Cable's appearance in Captain America vol.2 no.6 

These are rough placements and would need to be verified, this is my best guess.

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Thread 5

Posted: 06 May 2006 09:00 am    Post subject: Questions re: FOUR 29, FF 537, and CW 1
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just a few questions from recent comics. Can anyone help? 

How do the panels on the first page of FOUR 29 relate to panels from H3 91? And is that supposed to be Sauron in FOUR 29 or just a generic Savage Land flying reptile? 

In FF 537, Dr. Doom witnesses the Asgardians last battle  he sees Loki, Balder, Volstagg, and the Executioner. Is that Vidar in that scene as well? 

Who is the Sentinel Squad O*N*E member seen in CW 1? 

In CW 1, "23" people meet in the Baxter Building. However, I count 25: 
Mr. Fantastic 
Invisible Woman 
Thing 
Iron Man 
Yellowjacket 
Wasp 
Cage 
Spider-Man 
Spider-Woman 
She-Hulk 
Nighthawk 
Falcon 
Hercules 
Hulking 
Stature 
Patriot II 
Kate Bishop 
Wolverine 
Cyclops 
Dr. Strange 
Valkyrie II 
Daredevil II 
Black Cat 
Marvel Girl III? (the redhead with the glasses?) 
Masked guy in the same panel as Valkyrie?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 May 2006 10:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Who is the Sentinel Squad O*N*E member seen in CW 1? 


Looks like Alexander Lexington to me.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 May 2006 11:12 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
How do the panels on the first page of FOUR 29 relate to panels from H3 91?  
<<<

I don't get Hulk so I can't help you there. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And is that supposed to be Sauron in FOUR 29 or just a generic Savage Land flying reptile? 
<<<

The thought occurred to me, but one of the panels shows more typical Pteradactyl legs instead of Sauron's more humanesque ones. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In FF 537, Dr. Doom witnesses the Asgardians last battle  he sees Loki, Balder, Volstagg, and the Executioner. Is that Vidar in that scene as well? 
<<<

Don't know Vidar, but I do see Heimidall, Hogun and Fandral in there. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In CW 1, "23" people meet in the Baxter Building. However, I count 25: 
<<<

My only guess is that Maria's comment about 23 was based on inital reports. Spider-Man appears to show up late, given the surprised reaction people show to his presence, and I'd wager that since we're looking at Daredevil II and not Matt Murdock, his presence was uninvited and -- judging by his solitary appearance in a doorway -- late as well.

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Posted: 06 May 2006 11:45 am    
By Frederic Krier

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In FF 537, Dr. Doom witnesses the Asgardians last battle  he sees Loki, Balder, Volstagg, and the Executioner. Is that Vidar in that scene as well? 
<<<

Yes, the guy with the two horns on his helmet, raising his sword, is supposed to be Vidar. He looks exactly like Vidar's picture in the OHOTMU Deluxe Edition, though the coloring is off. And I guess that the one in front of the Executioner with the red pigtails is supposed to be Tyr, except that the coloring is way off. 

We have probably seen the young woman in the background at some point too, but I'm not sure who it could be. The Volstagg-lite character behind Balder and Loki looks like he might have appeared before as well.

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Posted: 06 May 2006 09:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Don't know Vidar, but I do see Heimidall, Hogun and Fandral in there.  
<<<

You do? I didn't see Hogun and Fandral. Would it be a mistake if they are there, since they died before T2 82? Then again, the Executioner is supposed to be dead, too. 


Quote: 
>>>
Marvel Girl III? (the redhead with the glasses?) 
Masked guy in the same panel as Valkyrie? 
<<<

Any ideas for these folks?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 May 2006 11:58 pm    
By Col_Fury

That is Marvel Girl III, but I don't know who the goldish colored masked guy is.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 6

Posted: 29 Apr 2006 12:35 am    Post subject: UX 228
By SeanCurtin

WOLVERINE/JAMES HOWLETT 
... 
W2 68-FB 
*UX 228-FB-FB 
UTSM -1 
... 

This particular flashback (to Wolverine's espionage days) is actually told during the course of another flashback, which itself makes up the majority of the issue. 

O.Z. Chase and his dog Cerberus appear in a seperate flashback-within-flashback in the same issue, and both are the only named characters to appear in the non-flashback framing sequence. Neither one has a chronology yet; both share the same appearances. 

CERBERUS II [DOG] - the later character currently listed as CERBERUS II would become CERBERUS III. 
and 
CHASE, O.Z. 
DAZZ 38 
DAZZ 39 
DAZZ 40 
DAZZ 41 
DAZZ 42 
UX 228-FB-FB (they lose a fight with Russian criminals; Chase is arrested) 
UX 228-FB (main story) 
UX 228 (framing sequence) 

-Sean

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Posted: 08 May 2006 02:15 pm    
By Ocean Doot

I just remembered, having recently re-read Secret Wars II, O.Z. and his dog also appear in Secret Wars II #4. 

I'm not sure which issues of "Dazzler" this would fit in between, though presumably it would just match where SWII4 fits in Alison's chronology.

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Thread 7

Posted: 09 May 2006 05:58 pm    Post subject: Peggy Carter oddities
By Enda80

CARTER, PEGGY 
TOS 64/2 
CA 162-FB 
TOS 75/2-FB 
TOS 77/2-FB 
CA 161 
CA 162 
CA 163 

I don't think the woman Steve Rogers recalls in TOS 77/2-fb is Peggy Carter. 

In TOS#75, Cap meets Sharon. Also in that story, he recalls a woman he had a relationship with in his true identity of Steve Rogers in the USA-in the fb, this woman calls him by his first name. She never met him as Captain America. In TOS#75, this woman is established as Sharon Carter's sister in Sharon Carter's thought balloon, as Sharon recalls her sister telling her of a man named Steve Rogers. 

TOS#77 introduces us to a French resistance fighter in the European theater. The resistance fighter from TOS 77 did not know Captain America's true identity.

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Thread 8

Posted: 09 May 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Avengers Chronology
By JimC

Im working on an Avengers Chronology that includes the solo titles and solo appearances. I would like to include as many as I can, even if they were not on the team at that time. Such as, Luke Cages appearances from the 70s. I have ran into a few problems with characters like Cage, Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, Black Widow (she spent alot of time with DD), and even the major ones- Thor, Cap, and Iron Man. These stories sometimes take place at the same time with no interaction with the group, so I try to stick to the indivdual chronologies as best I can, remembering that I would like to reread everything in order when Im done, so, its not always perfect. Sorry for the long intro, my question is: Does anyone have a chronology for the core titles themselves? - Avengers, WCA, AWC, and Force Works - what is the order of these books? Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks, JIm

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Posted: 10 May 2006 07:43 am    
By Giant Ant

This is probably what you're looking for... 
hope it helped 

GA 

http://www.avengersassemble.net/avchron.html

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Posted: 10 May 2006 11:39 am    
By JimC

Thanks Giant Ant! I have been using this as a rough guide. Ive had to change a few things around already, and when the WCA books come along I am having promblems with Bobs placement, (No offense to Bob). 
Thanks again, Jim

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Posted: 11 May 2006 12:59 am    
By John Simons

No, that chronology is terrible; in many places it seems to be ordered strictly by publication date rather than what's actually going on in the stories. 

Although it is a lot more work, you would be better off lining up all of the character's MCP chronologies and use them as your guide. 

Also check out the message board archive for March 2003, it's pretty long but if you wade through it you will find a chronology that somebody posted. I haven't tested that one out, so I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it has to be better than Fronczak's!
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 11 May 2006 01:57 pm    
By JimC

Thanks John! I will check it out. Basically, thats what Ive been doing, I use the MCP chronologies for the individual charaters and take it one issue at a time. 
Thanks Again, Jim

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Thread 9

Posted: 11 May 2006 01:57 pm    Post subject: X 76-80 corrections
By Paul O'Brien
Director

A number of points from this block of issues... 

1. There's a discrepancy between the Beast and Cecilia Reyes' listings for XCAL 121. Cecilia's listing is: 

X 75 
XCAL 121 
X 76 

The Beast has: 

X 75 
X 76 
UX 356-FB 
XCAL 121 

Both characters appear in the same scene in XCAL 121, so this is definitely an error. The scene shows them both talking with Moira MacTaggert via videolink. At the end of the conversation, Beast tells Cecilia to get "back to examining the X-Men", with a footnote to X 76. X 76 does indeed open with Cecilia examining Marrow and Maggott hiding out to avoid being examined himself. Conclusion: Beast and Cecilia appear in XCAL 121 between X 75 and X 76, and Beast's listing should be corrected accordingly 

2. X 78 contains a flashback on page 13 featuring Storm and Ainet which is presently not listed. "Many seasons ago", when "Ororo's power had just begun to blossom and she was still naive to its way", Ororo calls down days of rain to alleviate a drought. However, Ororo has merely redistributed the rain and caused drought elsewhere; with Ainet, she heads into the desert and uses her powers more carefully to set things right. 

The first part of this flashback, where Ororo calls down the rain, may simply be a repeat of CX 10-FB. The second part, where she and Ainet go into the wilderness, is definitely original. Even if the whole flashback is original, it can fit sensibly into the same gap. 

X 78-FB should be added to the start of Ainet's listing. For Storm, the sequence is:- 

... 
CX 10-FB 
X 78-FB 
X:HY 5 
... 

3. The Dark Beast's appearances in X 74 and X 79 are missing altogether, presumably on the basis that he was presented as an unidentified shadow figure. The Callisto entry in the OFFICIAL HANDBOOK has now confirmed that this character is indeed the Dark Beast (as everyone assumed at the time), and so the appearances can be added to his listing:- 

... 
XF 144 
X 74 
X 79 
XM 44 
...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 10

Posted: 09 May 2006 04:01 am    Post subject: New Spidey appearance
By ajbrown

In What If (vol. 1) #24 "What if Spider-man had rescued Gwen Stacy?" the first five pages show the 616-Peter Parker grieving over what happened to Gwen. He is sitting on the George Washington Bridge precisely one year after Gwen died and is crying and pondering what might have happened; we then see a flashback to what actually happened in ASM 121 and then on page 5 he says he will always love her and never forget her and webs off. 

On Page 6 The Watcher then says that in another reality something else happened and the story proceeds. 

The first five pages of this issue are a 616 Spider-man appearance and so should be added to the chronology. I'm not sure when it should be placed, other than the issue was published in December 1980, the same month as ASM 211. If someone has a calender and knows when Gwen died in it then this issue can be placed exactly one year after that.
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 09 May 2006 06:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Going by Olshevsky's calendar placements, the first anniversary of Gwen's death as seen in WI? 24 would occur between M/TU 57 and NO 12.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 May 2006 09:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

RLG has pointed out the error of my hasty ways. 

I rescind my previous assertion about the placement of WI? 24. The third, not the first, anniversary of Gwen Stacys death would occur between M/TU 57 and NO 12. 

I would place the late February, one-year anniversary of Gwens death from WI? 24 between GSSH 1 and M/TU 22. GSSH 1 occurs shortly after the winter setting of ASM 132-133 (see ASM Index #5). M/TU 22 occurs in early spring (see M/TU Index #2). 

Extrapolating from Olshevskys calendar placements, we have: 
ASM 132-133  January 
GSSH 1  straddles January and February 
WI? 24  late February 
M/TU 22  April 

Sorry for the confusion. I hope this is helpful, aj.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 May 2006 04:38 am    
By ajbrown

Cheers for that. I know it's only a few pages but I'm really getting into Spidey chronology at the moment (as you can probably tell by my occasional threads about slight mistakes!) 

Should WI? 24 be added to the Spidey Chronology now?
_________________
AJ

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Thread 11

Posted: 07 May 2006 05:53 pm    Post subject: Chronological placement for characters' early reincarnations
By wolframbane

This site covers early chronologicial appearances of characters that occur before their first appearances, through flashbacks, time travel and BTS. Does this also include earlier reincarnations of the character. Examples include the (possible) incarnations of Wolverine where he fought Ba'al in ancient Jerusalem and Unceglia in the 1840s.

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Posted: 07 May 2006 09:29 pm    
By Enda80

The problem with the timeframe 

This story became an impossibility after Wolverine: Origin was published, but let's read what Ronald Byrd had to say about it. 


These events, Logan's first known encounter with the supernatural, eventually prove so troubling to him that he suppresses them from his conscious memory, unless his inability to recall them can be traced to his time with Team X; decades later, he will recall them in a dream, which his subconscious sets during the 1840s, although the possibility that these events in fact happened not to Logan but to an earlier incarnation of his soul cannot be dismissed. 
Ronald Byrd 

Ronald Byrd also used the first explanation in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Wolverine Handbook 2004 and placed these events after Logan's first chronological encounter with Sabretooth and the first apparent death of Silver Fox (Wolverine#10) which happened some time before World War I. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/uncegilawolv.htm

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Posted: 08 May 2006 07:42 am    
By Dhall

The Flashback in Wolverine 10 was said to be non-canonical in Wolverine 48-50. It's one of Logan's faked memories, implanted by the Weapon X program.

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Posted: 08 May 2006 09:04 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Does this also include earlier reincarnations of the character. 
<<<

No. We'd consider that to be a different character. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 May 2006 01:46 pm    
By Enda80

Well, what about recipients of the Zola or Kang switch mind into cloned body techinque? Techincally, those are reincarnations. Chronolgies get split after each new clone body? 

Those who have undergone this or similar proceses or were offered it: 
Arnim Zola 
Hate-Monger 
Red Skull 
Maelstrom 
Professor X 
Baron Zemo (allegedly he was at least offered it) 
Kang 
Centurius (possibly) 

any others?

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Posted: 09 May 2006 08:00 am 
By jephyork
Director

Putting a character's mind into a different body is not a "reincarnation". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 May 2006 05:53 pm    
By Enda80

"Putting a character's mind into a different body is not a "reincarnation". 

-Jeph!" 

Well, yes it is. Remember, incarnate=put into flesh, re-again, put into flesh again. 

That said, perhaps the issue of whether they retain memories of their previous corporeal adventures would make a difference. 

Ok, reincarnaters to consider: 
the Sphinx (female) 
Forever Man 
Forever Man 

Anyone else?

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Posted: 10 May 2006 07:41 am    
By jephyork
Director

John, don't play silly-buggers with word definitions. You know what the commonly accepted definition of "reincarnation" is -- and transplanting Prof. X's mind from his original body into a cloned body ISN'T it. 

I don't know anything about Forever Man (nor why you put him on the list twice), but yeah -- the female Sphinx would be about the only time we'd bother listing a character's past lives in their chronology. Because she was the same person through all of them -- dying, and waking up with all her memories in a new body. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 10 May 2006 12:19 pm    
By Enda80

There are at least two characters called the Forever Man. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/forevrm1.htm 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/forevermanhardy.htm 

It would be interesting if we find out that their origins are somehow tied to the Maha Yogi, who as the Marvel equivalent of Vandal Savage (beard, own company, ancient man, immortal, etc.) could use a counterpart of Immortal Man, similar to the whole Eternal Warrior/Immortal Enemy thing.

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Posted: 10 May 2006 12:37 pm    
By Enda80

What Doctor Druid's life as a woman? When he loved the man who later became Shadow-Woman, pace Secret Defenders.

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Posted: 10 May 2006 04:38 pm    
By jephyork
Director

"Pace"? 

What ABOUT Dr. Druid's "life as a woman"? It would help if you provided some details. If it was actually Dr. Druid, turned into a woman, we'd add it to his chronology. If he was this woman in a former life, we'd consider it a separate character. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 10 May 2006 07:53 pm    
By Enda80

An issue of Secret Defenders showed that Doctor Druid was a British Princess in a previous incarnation. Since he is now aware of this prior life, doesn't it merit inclusion?

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Posted: 11 May 2006 08:08 am    
By jephyork
Director

No. 

If she was given a full name and made more than one appearance, we might include her as a separate character. At best, we'd do a "see Dr. Druid" link. But that's all. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 May 2006 01:40 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
"Pace"? 
<<<

Latin. Literally "with peace", but broadly it's used to mean something along the lines of "with all respect to this source, which I disagree with." 

For what it's worth, by the way, I think the idea of listing prior incarnations under the same character heading is absurd, save for the occasional mystical characters where it really IS literally the same character every time around.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 May 2006 08:23 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
"with all respect to this source, which I disagree with." 

Ah ha -- thanks. Somehow, though, I don't think that's the way John means to use it. 

Maybe he should use "as per", which I don't think carries the same "I disagree" implication. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 12

Posted: 12 May 2006 05:00 pm    Post subject: missing Doom appearance
By frogcoin

hi, i was going trough some reading in dazzler books and i found the "beauty and the beast" and Doom appears in it, still he doesnt appear as listed in that book neither his flashback, neither his son, the question is. this is Doom or some trick/clone/bad memories? (the normal marvel explanation of something that doesnt fit) 

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Posted: 12 May 2006 09:42 pm    
By garbonzo

Doombot?

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Thread 13

Posted: 11 May 2006 05:44 pm    Post subject: Deadpool question
By Enda80

Deadpool 2#2 states that Deadpool pulled a hit for Amahal Farouk.....who died when Storm was only about seven years old as thief in Cairo! However, some have informed me that other stories indicate that Deadpool became a costumed mercenary around the time of stories published in the 1980's.

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Posted: 12 May 2006 08:25 am    
By jephyork
Director

Well, there's "mercenary" and then there's "costumed mercenary". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 May 2006 05:51 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There is a flashback in DPOOL3 36 that suggests that: Deadpool visits a supervillain costumer and, going through other villains' costumes, stumbles upon the Deadpool costume. The scene reads as though this is the first time that Deadpool has seen the costume, but that interpretation outright contradicts the flashbacks from DPOOL3 32-33 in which Deadpool is in costume prior to becoming Wade Wilson and joining Weapon X. The only way for the DPOOL3 36 flashback to work is to assume that Deadpool has simply stumbled upon one of his own costumes that somehow found its way into the costumer's collection. 

-Sean

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Thread 14

Posted: 14 May 2006 12:16 pm    Post subject: Darkoth notes
By Enda80

DARKOTH/MAJOR DESMOND PITT 
FF 193-FB 
**XCAL 39-FB 
{FF 142} 
FF 143 
FF 144 
FF 194-FB 
FF 193 
FF 194 
T 325 
XCAL 38 
XCAL 39 

XCAL 39 shows him on a table getting mutated into Darkoth in a one-panel fb. Other than that, it was pointed out in the FF Index that Doom began to interfere with the solar shuttle and Pitt probably between MSH 20 and FF I#84. So one might add this scene as BTS for him between those issues.

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Thread 15

Posted: 15 May 2006 10:30 pm    Post subject: god loves man kills
By frogcoin

hi, dunno if this has been pointed before but... i didnt see corsair or havok anywhere in this graphic novel, still they are listed with an appearance in this story (M/GN 5). 

maybe this went this way cause it is listed in x-men index.

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Thread 16

Posted: 17 May 2006 08:19 am    Post subject: Red Wolf/Wildrun
By ssstegron

It looks like there are two entries for this character, as "Red Wolf/Wildrun", and as "Wildrun", and that both entries are incomplete. I think the correct chronology is a combination of the two, and belongs under "Red Wolf/Wildrun". It might be good to leave the Wildrun entry there with a (see Red Wolf/Wildrun) note. 

A 80-FB (recalled as the first Red Wolf, unnamed) 
FF@25 (as an Anachronaut) 
A@21 
A@22/2 
AVF 3

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Thread 17

Posted: 12 Feb 2005 10:12 am    Post subject: Multiversal Singularities (was: In-Betweener question)
By jephyork
Director

Hey, folks. I'm trying to catch up on my backlog of What If books, and I'm curious about something: 

Is the "In-Betweener" a multiversal singularity -- meaning that, just like the Living Tribunal, there's only one of him in the multiverse? Or is there one In-Betweener for each timeline? 

I'm working on WI2 #75, where an alternate Blink becomes the In-Betweener's protege, and I'm trying to figure out if that's THE In-Betweener or AN In-Betweener. 

Thanks! 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 13 Feb 2005 07:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 10:43 am    
By Ant-Man

It is my understanding that the Living Tribunal is the only conceptual entity that is a multiversal singularity. This would mean that Master Order and Lord Chaos are NOT multiversal singularities, and I would assume that the In-Betweener, their creation, would not be one either.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

Last edited by Ant-Man on 12 Feb 2005 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 10:48 am    
By jephyork
Director

I've come to the conclusion that even Eternity isn't a multiversal singularity -- and probably not even Death, either! 

So, yeah, it looks like the Living Tribunal is the ONLY exception... 

-Jeph! 

EDIT: I liked the earlier version of your post, where you bolded the first three letters in "assume". 

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 11:18 am    
By Ant-Man

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
EDIT: I liked the earlier version of your post, where you bolded the first three letters in "assume". <<<

Since you liked it so much, I changed it back! 
I definitely understand your reasoning for this thread. After the 'Mojo' discussion over in another thread, I started checking my notes and a handful of comics to verify if there are other characters that span all realities. As far as I can tell, if other characters fall into that category, Marvel doesn't just come out and say it anywhere.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 11:21 am
By jephyork
Director

Did you happen to find any evidence of alternate Mojos (or Spirals) while you were looking? I'm anxious to settle this thing once and for all... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 11:35 am    
By jannepie

Do alternate Shatterstars count? I think there was one around X-Force # 100.

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 11:47 am    
By Ant-Man

The only Mojo appearance in an issue of What If that I have is #59. 
It just a generic shot of Mojo along with other villains with the caption: 

"AND OVER THE MONTHS THAT FOLLOW, WOLVERINE RAPIDLY TURNS ALPHA FLIGHT FROM A ROUGH-EDGE EXPERIMENT -- INTO A FIGHTING UNIT SECOND TO NONE!" 

It gives no indication of what transpired between himself and the Alpha Flight led by Wolverine. (so it doesn't contradict Mojo's claim...Alpha Flight could have simply thwarted some scheme by Mojo within that reality) 

Spiral appears in a panel in What If #46, along with Freedom Force. 
Spiral had her own motivations for joining Freedom Force, and was known to flake out on them from time to time, so there's nothing to indicate that a single Spiral wouldn't give Freedom Force a whirl in multiple realities/timelines. 

I have noted that she also appears in What If #50, but I don't have that issue (I thought I did...may be misfiled somewhere...). If anyone has that issue, and they tell us what happens to her in it? 

I also have the X-Men Adventures issues that Mojo and Spiral appear in, but those are outside the scope of this search, I believe.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 01:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Alternate Shatterstars don't count for the same reasons that alternate Longshots don't count -- after having spent so much time in the Marvel Universe, there's bound to be some bifurcated versions wandering around out there. 

I've always wondered what happens when a bifurcated version of Longshot returns to the Mojoverse -- and finds the "real" Longshot there already, leading a rebellion. I suppose it's best not to ask questions like that, though... 

Hmm, could there be alternate Spirals? I don't know ... her whole schtick is "dancing through time", but does that preclude alternate versions of herself being formed? Even Kang the Conqueror, "the master of time", managed to accidentally bifurcate himself several times. 

I'll give this whole thing up in a second once I spot a definitively alternate Mojo ... but until then, I still think his claim might hold some water. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 01:51 pm    
By Sijo

If I may offer my opinion, I don't think ANY Marvel character should be considered unique unless it is expressedly said so in the comics. This is because every alternate timeline seems to include EVERYTHING in the Marvel Universe, including related dimensions like The Dark Dimension or Earth-Squadron Supreme. Alternate versions of Eternity have certainly been seen (in the Korvac-destroys-the-universe What If story, for one.) I'll bet my hide there are multiple MojoWorlds too.

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 01:52 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'll give this whole thing up in a second once I spot a definitively alternate Mojo ... but until then, I still think his claim might hold some water. 
<<<

To me, his claim doesn't make sense, on its face, especially insofar as What If stories are concerned. 

What if's are alternate events based on...well...what if this happened, or what if that didn't happen. For instance: in "our reality" Mojo wakes up one morning and breaks a fingernail. What if... he didn't break that fingernail? 

Now we have an alternate timeline. Are we to believe that, immediately after breaking the fingernail in our timeline, the same Mojo now exists, and may be doing two completely contradictory things in two timelines, at the same time? 

In a quote from "All the President's Men," 

Quote: 
>>>
I don't believe it....Doesn't make sense. 
<<<


watching: magnificent seven

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 02:51 pm    
By Jim Smith

What's really losing me in discussions like this is why it's taken as fact that What If? stories are presentations of alternate timelines which actually exist in the canonical Marvel multiverse. Granting that the nature of the multiverse allows for all these realities to co-exist, why must they? 

I guess the theory behind all this is that the What If? series feature the real canon 616 Watcher telling us about real canon alternate realities. But I regard this as little more than a storytelling device. As it is, I've never understood why the Watcher would be distracted from his sworn duty to watch 616 to peep at other realities. Are his WI? appearances taking place when he's on his coffee break? And why's he wasting his time talking to us, the readers? If you take it too literally it doesn't make any sense. 

Admittedly, some references to What If? realities have appeared in canon comics--Avengers Forever #12 springs to mind--but in general I don't worry about whether the Eternity in What If? is the Eternity, because What If? doesn't "count" to begin with. It's like trying to analyze the chronology of the guy dreaming about Aunt May meeting Galactus in Marvel Team-Up #137.

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 03:51 pm    
By Dhall

>>>
Are his WI? appearances taking place when he's on his coffee break?
<<<

Now there's an idea for a comic: Tales from the Watcher's coffee break.... 


>>>
Are we to believe that, immediately after breaking the fingernail in our timeline, the same Mojo now exists, and may be doing two completely contradictory things in two timelines, at the same time?
<<<

This is exactly what Mojo would like us to believe. I think he's been reading his own press releases.

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 04:09 pm    
By Somebody

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
What's really losing me in discussions like this is why it's taken as fact that What If? stories are presentations of alternate timelines which actually exist in the canonical Marvel multiverse. Granting that the nature of the multiverse allows for all these realities to co-exist, why must they? 

I guess the theory behind all this is that the What If? series feature the real canon 616 Watcher telling us about real canon alternate realities. But I regard this as little more than a storytelling device. As it is, I've never understood why the Watcher would be distracted from his sworn duty to watch 616 to peep at other realities. Are his WI? appearances taking place when he's on his coffee break? And why's he wasting his time talking to us, the readers? If you take it too literally it doesn't make any sense. 

Admittedly, some references to What If? realities have appeared in canon comics--Avengers Forever #12 springs to mind--but in general I don't worry about whether the Eternity in What If? is the Eternity, because What If? doesn't "count" to begin with. It's like trying to analyze the chronology of the guy dreaming about Aunt May meeting Galactus in Marvel Team-Up #137. 
<<<

The Watcher's Quasar appearance (the issue Quasar gets the Starbrand and *thinks* he burns it out - I can't remember the no. offhand) makes it absolutely clear that, yes, he really DOES keep looking into alternate universes. 

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out why Cable thinks his timeline was deleted just because Apocalypse seemingly died. That's the definition of a bifurcation of the timeline - something happens differently.

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 04:15 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Ask Weinberg. 

And, as for Mojo breaking his fingernail or not ... I'd assumed that, IF his claim were true, that would mean that the Mojoverse is somehow protected from bifurcation. Mojo wouldn't "break his fingernail or not" -- Events Only Happen One Way in the Mojoverse. 

(Wacky concept? Not really -- as far as we know, that's the way the real world works. You know the world I'm talking about.) 

But it's not like the Mojoverse is one of the usual alternate earths, on which Spineless Ones happened to evolve -- it's a whole different realm. For all we know, the Mojoverse may be in some temporal bubble, and incapable of -- or prevented from -- bifurcating. Hell, Spiral could have cooked up a spell to keep the Mojoverse a single linear timeline. 

Which is why I ask: have we SEEN any evidence that the Mojoverse can bifurcate? 

If it's possible to dismiss Mojo's claim based on EVIDENCE, instead of based on "but, wait, no, I don't like that, that can't beeee" -- let's try to find the evidence. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 04:36 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Quote: 
>>>
For all we know, the Mojoverse may be in some temporal bubble, and incapable of -- or prevented from -- bifurcating. Hell, Spiral could have cooked up a spell to keep the Mojoverse a single linear timeline.  
<<<

Is that what he claims? I thought he claimed he was the singularity, not his entire dimension. 

You're asking for evidence that the "Mojoverse" follows the laws of nature that other dimensions follow, when the only evidence to the contrary is the word of someone who's clearly insane. 

If another obviously insane character--say, Madcap--were to claim, "Of course, the Mojoverse bifurcates. I should know. I'm an authority," we'd be no more likely to accept his claim, on the face of it. Otherwise, we'd be in a pretty pickle, wouldn't we? 

Do any of the Handbooks chime in on the subject? 


watching: franklin comforting his secretary

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 05:19 pm    
By Enda80

Quote: 
>>>
And, as for Mojo breaking his fingernail or not ... I'd assumed that, IF his claim were true, that would mean that the Mojoverse is somehow protected from bifurcation. Mojo wouldn't "break his fingernail or not" -- Events Only Happen One Way in the Mojoverse. 

(Wacky concept? Not really -- as far as we know, that's the way the real world works. You know the world I'm talking about.) 
<<<

Actually, an article in New Scientist discussed the possibility that alternate quantum realities may exist. We won't get to see them, but yes, serious scientists allow for their existence. 

Oh, and if you ignore the Deluxe Edition entry for the Watchers which confirms that the Earth-616 Watcher views alternate Earths, Quasar#47 shows Quasar walking in on the Watcher during one such session! 

Finally, to put really proove things; 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthqualostc.htm 

Quasar's going through the Watcher's portal to visit What If Worlds sprung from the events of Quasar#6 (January 1990). In that issue, Quasar chased the Living Laser to the moon. The Laser slipped into the Watcher's home, and saw the portal through which the Watcher observes alternate Earths. In this case, Uatu observed E105709-a world where the new X-Men died on their first mission, as seen in What If II#9 (January 1990). The Living Laser flew into the portal at some point after page 24 of that story. 


The Living Laser inexplicably appeared in Iron Man I#258-261 with no explanation as to how he returned to Earth-616. So, in Quasar#30, the Watcher explained that the Earth-616 Living Laser encountered his E105709 counterpart, after which the Earth-616 Living Laser attempted to make his way back to Earth-616, so he went to the moon and went through the E105709 Watcher's portal. 


In an alternate future, the Guardians of the Galaxy also saw some of their alternate counterparts in the Watcher's viewscreens (Guardians of the Galaxy Annual#1, Korvac Saga).

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 05:26 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Which is why I ask: have we SEEN any evidence that the Mojoverse can bifurcate? 

If it's possible to dismiss Mojo's claim based on EVIDENCE, instead of based on "but, wait, no, I don't like that, that can't beeee" -- let's try to find the evidence. 
<<<

The biggest argument against it (to me) is that he should have his personal Crisis of Infinite Longshots if it was true. Enough Longshots should have returned to Mojoworld so as to be a huge army (and when said army has luck powers...) 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Quote:
>>>
For all we know, the Mojoverse may be in some temporal bubble, and incapable of -- or prevented from -- bifurcating. Hell, Spiral could have cooked up a spell to keep the Mojoverse a single linear timeline.  
<<<

Is that what he claims? I thought he claimed he was the singularity, not his entire dimension. 
<<<

Quote: "There are no alternate reality me's. Just one me. (tiresome Winick dialogue repeating prior sentence). And for that matter -- probably for the first time in your time together -- (balloon break) -- that you have all been to the same restaurant. N'est-ce pas? (snip redundant sentence) Mojoverse is a junction for all realities. All roads lead to Mojo. Welcome baaaaaaaaAAAAAAck!!!"

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Posted: 12 Feb 2005 05:28 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Just because Mojo claims it, doesn't make it true. The man's madder than a sack of ocelots.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 12:10 am    
By jephyork
Director

Well, he's an egomaniac of the highest order. But is he "mad"? He's the kind of "madman" who, if he WANTED the Mojoverse to be a multiversal singularity, would have it made that way. 

Quote: 
>>>
I thought he claimed he was the singularity, not his entire dimension. 
<<<

"Mojoverse is a junction for all realities" seems to be claiming that the Mojoverse -- not just Mojo -- is the singularity. Also, if it's true, it seems to be an argument for my notion that the Mojoverse isn't Just Another Dimension/Timeline -- it may exist as some kind of crossroads or centerpoint, and by its special nature may be immune to bifurcation. 

Look, we've argued the "he's insane" point -- now let's try to actually DISPROVE what he's saying. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 04:21 am    
By Jim Smith

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Look, we've argued the "he's insane" point -- now let's try to actually DISPROVE what he's saying. 
<<<

Shouldn't the burden of proof be on Mojo? He's the nutball claiming to have an unusually lofty position in the multiverse. I only know enough about the character to actively avoid his appearances like the plague, but my first reaction is to say "He may well be lying to make himself look like a cosmic big shot." 

I think Russ's Madcap analogy holds up--why should an insane, disreputable bad guy be taken at his word unless proven otherwise? If Baron Zemo says he once defeated Captain America, he'd better be referring to an on-panel story or I'm not going to believe a word of it, whether I can disprove it or not.

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 07:36 am    
By Ant-Man

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
Shouldn't the burden of proof be on Mojo? 
<<<

No. I think that the only way that any claim should be discarded is if there is evidence in a published comic to the contrary. 

The burden of proof, I'm afraid, is on Marvel. If they don't want it that way, let them clarify it. The've 'clarified' plenty of things in the past. 

If we start making judgments based on quality of character or levels of trustworthiness, we might need to throw out a bunch of items, based on the fact that the characters simply expressed them. 

"Don't count on anything that Wolverine says...half of his memories are implants!"  

What if when Madcap first appeared, having been portrayed as completely nuts, but we hadn't been shown his abilities, he were to make a totally preposterous claim like "I can get squashed flat by a steamroller, and be completely unharmed." Would you simply write it off as crazy talk? Well, anyway, we WERE shown his abilities, and that he could get squashed flat by a steamroller, so there was no question. 

Marvel has never addressed the nature of MojoWorld. How it or its inhabitants fit into the grand scheme. Even though Mojo and MojoWorld have been around for nearly 20 years, their appearances are limited, as are the facts pertaining to them.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

Last edited by Ant-Man on 13 Feb 2005 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 09:42 am    
By jephyork
Director

And, again, why does Mojo's "insanity" mean that he's also a liar? 

He's not a drooling lunatic, and I don't think we've ever seen him telling outright and obvious lies before. He may be "insane" -- but he's got power. Power to make things the way he wants them. 

If he were under the delusion that the Mojoverse is a singularity ... or *wanted* it to be a singularity ... he wouldn't just sit there in his weird crab-chair and THINK it's a singularity -- he'd send Spiral out to MAKE it a singularity. 

Let's cut to the chase, though -- IF Mojo is right, or if Mojo is wrong -- what does this mean to the MCP? How many alt-Mojo appearances do we need to include if he IS telling the truth? 

I can only think of ONE off the top of my head -- the previously-mentioned What If v2 #59. Are there any others? Any stories that occur in the future featuring Mojo? (They'd be "alternate" futures for the MU, but the only future for Mojo.) I didn't see any new Mojo scenes in the only future-Mojoverse story I can think of, XFO@ 1. 

I think we're basically arguing over whether Mojo in WI2 #59 is "our" guy or an alternate. And you know what? I'd be asking that question ANYWAY when I reviewed the issue, regardless of Mojo's claim -- given that Mojo has been shown to go after multiple X-teams in multiple dimensions, this might be the "real" Mojo even if he *isn't* a singularity. 

Still, that said -- nobody seems to want to do the work to find any in-book evidence that contradicts Mojo's claim -- they'd rather just say "aw, he's nuts", even though I keep mentioning that he has Spiral's time-twisting powers to back his claim up. I'll drop this theory in a hot second if someone shows me some proof of an alternate Mojo or alternate Mojoverse ... but I haven't seen it yet. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 09:53 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
What if when Madcap first appeared, having been portrayed as completely nuts, but we hadn't been shown his abilities, he were to make a totally preposterous claim like "I can get squashed flat by a steamroller, and be completely unharmed." Would you simply write it off as crazy talk? Well, anyway, we WERE shown his abilities, and that he could get squashed flat by a steamroller, so there was no question. 
<<<

That's a bad analogy. The point isn't that anything Madcap says is necessary FALSE, merely that his word carries very little weight in demonstrating that it's TRUE. 

If Madcap had turned up and proclaimed himself to be the reincarnation of Jesus, without presenting any proof beyond the fact that he'd come back from the dead in his origin story, would you accept that as true? 

Mojo has always been prone to delusional rambling. Go back to the LONGSHOT miniseries, for example, and you have him stubbornly insisting that he's a life-bringer even though plants die the moment he comes into the room, and it's plainly obvious that the opposite is true. Mojo's perception of the world around him, particularly as it relates to his own status and importance, is just plain distorted. 

Now, granted, the Exiles storyline does establish that the same Mojo has interfered in at least two different timelines - the mainstream Earth, and the homeworld of the Exiles' Morph. But since he's extradimensional to start with, you wouldn't necessarily expect Mojo to be tied to visiting just one Earth. Given Mojo's established track record of delusions of grandeur, I don't see any compelling reason to accept his claim to be the only Mojo in existence.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 10:08 am    
By jephyork
Director

Sasquatch, Nocturne and Mimic recognize Mojo as well -- and Sunfire has a line that implies that she at least has *heard* of Mojo. That's all the Exiles except Blink. 

And while you're going to argue that they met an alternate Mojo, this Mojo appears to recognize that he's seen THEM before, too. His line to the Exiles as a group is "All the times that you very fine, beautiful folks have visited my world or starred in my motion pictures ... well, you starred for ME." If Mojo only recognized one of the six people in front of him, I don't think he would have phrased it that way. 

This doesn't imply that he's a singularity -- but it implies that he's run into four to five sixths of the Exiles, plus the mainstream X-Men ... and what are the odds of that? That out of seven *randomly chosen* timelines, Mojo's run into five or six of them? Mojo gets around. 

So: think that might be the real Mojo in WI2 #59? We've got about 80% odds that it is.  

EDIT: In Uncanny X-Men #393, published (and probably occuring) before Exiles #18-19, Mojo displays a knowledge of the Age of Apocalypse universe. So that means that he's aware of FIVE of the six Exiles' home dimensions -- possibly ALL of them if Sunfire's line referencing Mojo means that she or her dimension has tangled with him. His odds just went up -- out of seven randomly chosen universes, Mojo knows of 6-7 of them ... that's 85-100%. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 11:09 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
"Don't count on anything that Wolverine says...half of him memories are implants!"  
<<<

Fair enough, but no one here has contended that. 

A better analogy would be: 

"If Wolverine makes a doubtful claim...well, half his memories are implants." 

"If Satan makes a doubtful claim...well, he's the Prince of Lies." 

"If Madcap makes a doubtful claim...well, he's insane." 

Do we accept everything that Sabretooth tells Wolverine about their past, when he has a history of lying about that very thing? 

Now, in most cases, I'd be willing to extend the benefit of the doubt if their claim is backed up in flashback. 

But a claim like this is just not something that a character can know to be true, unless there's some other information we're not privy to, just as a character who's not a member of an immortal race can make the independent--and believable--claim that he's immortal. He can only know that he hasn't died yet. 


watching: tombstone

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 11:15 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I think we're basically arguing over whether Mojo in WI2 #59 is "our" guy or an alternate. 
<<<

I think we're playing on a bigger tapestry than that. The question I'm addressing is: "Are the unnatural claims of a raving lunatic to be taken at face value?" 

Whether Mojo should get a listing for WI2 #59 is probably secondary. 


watching: tombstone

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 12:53 pm    
By Ant-Man

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Are the unnatural claims of a raving lunatic to be taken at face value? 
<<<

My point is that every claim should be considered truthful until there is evidence to the contrary. 

On a jury, you're supposed to arrive at a verdict based solely on the facts and testimony presented. If only one side presents their case (in this situation, Mojo's claim), and there is no opposition and no evidence to oppose that claim, then the judgment seems pretty clear cut. 

(another bad analogy?) 

All it takes is one story showing us that there are alternate versions of Mojo to make his claim null and void. But as it stands right now, that just isn't the case.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 12:58 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
(another bad analogy?) 
<<<

Yes, it's a very bad analogy! A jury is supposed to weigh up whether they find the evidence believable. The defence can lead no witnesses at all and still win (and regularly do) because the jury don't find the prosecution witnesses believable.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 01:03 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
(another bad analogy?) 
<<<

Half and half. In a trial, you don't have to specifically oppose that claim. If you, as the opposing attorney, can convince the jury that the witness is insane, or a liar, and has previously made other absurd claims that were proven false (as Paul O'Brien has attempted above with the "giver of life" segment), then the witness testimony can be discounted. It doesn't mean that the witness is wrong, but it casts reasonable doubt. But I'm no lawyer. 


watching: sunstorm

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 01:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Good thing Paul O. *is*. 

Quote: 
>>>
But a claim like this is just not something that a character can know to be true 
<<<

I'm going to -- once again -- point to Spiral here. She has the ability to check things like that -- and quite possibly, to ARRANGE things like that. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 01:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Good thing Paul O. *is*. 
<<<

I know. I'm his straight man, and was just trying to leave the door open for him. 


watching: bo's dereks

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 01:56 pm    
By Ant-Man

I'll refrain from the reckless use analogies! 
 

I realize that my attempts at being persuasive are futile, so I'll be happy to stay out of the Mojo subject. 

I do have one quick question: is there anyone here that has any opposition to Jahf's claim that there is only one Jahf and one Modt shared by the various realities? (I'm just curious--I don't want there to be another debate!) 

(Jeph, I'm sorry that I forgot the mention Jahf and Modt in my reply at the first of this thread.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 03:54 pm    
By Jim Smith

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And, again, why does Mojo's "insanity" mean that he's also a liar? 
<<<

It doesn't. The fact that Mojo is a bad guy makes him...well, okay, it doesn't make him a liar, but it increases the possibility in my mind that he's prepared to lie about anything. 

Mojo, from what little I know about him, is evil. (Every time I declare a Marvel villain, from Galactus right down to Mister Sinister, is evil, I am recited a litany of his virtues, and an explanation that his ways are simply different from society at large. So maybe Mojo is just misunderstood. I won't claim to be a Mojo expert. I don't want to be a Mojo expert. But from what I've seen, he's evil.) And when I know someone is evil, I distrust their assertions and assume that he may be stating fabrications for some unknown ulterior motive. When I know someone is evil and mentally unbalanced, I distrust their assertions and assume that he may be stating fabrications for no particular reason. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If he were under the delusion that the Mojoverse is a singularity ... or *wanted* it to be a singularity ... he wouldn't just sit there in his weird crab-chair and THINK it's a singularity -- he'd send Spiral out to MAKE it a singularity. 
<<<

I'll concede I don't know anything about Spiral. She's powerful enough to reshape the entire space-time continuum so that her boss is a multiversal singularity? Doesn't that kind of power put her on the level of Eternity or the Beyonder? By extension, since she presumably takes orders from Mojo, does this make him even more powerful than that? 

I'm clearly out of my depth here. If Mojo and Spiral are this omnipotent, why do the X-Men and Longshot give them such a hard time? Shouldn't they be enslaving God and making him star in a reality show? 

This is why I have such a hard time with Mojo's claim. From what I understand, the status of being a singularity--of being the only iteration of yourself in the entire multiverse--is a very rare quality. From what I've seen here, the Living Tribunal is a singularity, and I would guess the Timebroker and the Time-Keepers are as well. This strikes me as a very exclusive group--Galactus isn't in it, the Phoenix Force isn't in it, Death isn't in it. But some fat pile of grease riding a mechanical spider, who moonlights as an extradimensional movie producer...he rates?

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 05:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Oh for crying out loud, people. Just find me a What If comic where Mojo is killed and we'll call it a freaking day. How many times do I have to ask for in-book evidence of alternate Mojos before I get some feedback? 

The fact is -- we know nothing about the physics of Mojoworld, or its location in the multiverse. It's clearly NOT an alternate earth -- and we know that time runs differently there -- so why do we assume that it's "normal" in all other ways? That it must act the same as our dimension does? Mojo referred to it as a "junction" -- maybe it is. Not a traditional dimension, but some kind of dimensional hub or waypoint where a single planet exists, floating in a void -- and Mojo's made it into TV Land. 

No, couldn't be. After all, Mojo's insane. 

We know that Spiral's whole gig is time-dancing -- and yet we're not able to assume that Mojo might have ordered her to cast some anti-bifurcation spell around Mojoworld. 

No, of course not. Mojo's insane. 

We'll also ignore that he's the ruler of his world and has phenomenal extradimensional technology and resources. He's insane so he MUST be lying. 

For all we know, he knows that he's the only Mojo in existence because he's tasked Spiral to KILL any Mojos that bifurcate. That's right in line with his rampant egotism, but no, it couldn't possibly be true, because he's Insane and therefore Automatically Wrong. 

Nice open minds here in this thread. Don't bother to go and find evidence from the books, don't bother to consider his resources, don't even try to imagine plausible scenarios for his claim -- just talk about how insane he is over and over. 

All I *really* care about -- the only way this discussion pertains to the MCP -- is Mojo's appearance in What If v2 #59. And maaaybe Spiral's appearances in #46 and #50. 

I've cited evidence from Exiles #18-19 that, out of six presumably randomly-selected dimensions, Mojo's encountered five of them ... possibly six. Plus the mainstream Marvel Universe. If you expand those figures, you get an 85-100% chance that, if you select a dimension at random, Mojo's been to or learned of it. 

Those are pretty good odds that it's OUR Mojo in WI2 #59. 

(Of course, if his claim is true, those odds jump from 85-100% to a straight-up 100%.) 

At this point I'm thinking of dropping the discussion and advocating that WI2 #59 be put into Mojo's chronology, with a question mark or annotation that there's an 85% chance that this is the "real" Mojo. Maybe a link to this thread, so everyone can watch the fun. 

---- 

As for Mutt and Jeff ... sorry, Modt and Jahf (and THANK YOU for the change in subject, Brian) ... I didn't recall Jahf claiming that there was only one of him in the multiverse. I thought he was claiming that he was the 616-Jahf, who didn't get overwritten by the AoA world because of the special nature of the M'Kraan crystal. Am I mistaken? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 06:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Oh for crying out loud, people. Just find me a What If comic where Mojo is killed and we'll call it a freaking day. How many times do I have to ask for in-book evidence of alternate Mojos before I get some feedback? 
<<<

Oh for crying out loud, because you'll discredit any evidence. For instance: 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If he's a Spineless One and a denizen of an alternate Mojoverse, sure. 

But an Earthman *named* Mojo? No. 
<<<

What evidence would you accept of an alternate Mojoverse? In all the discussion, both here and in the original Mojo thread, for all the appeals of in-book evidence, I haven't seen any references to in-book evidence that Mojo is a singularity. In fact, in both threads, the true distinction seems to be that it's the Mojoverse, not Mojo, that's a singularity, or am I misreading? What exactly are we debating? 


extreme makeover

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 06:56 pm    
By Ant-Man

Jeph, I was going by this information regarding Modt and Jahf: 

GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS #3 (Page 14) 
"The inside of the M'Kraan Crytal--the neutron sun--is a nexus point between all matter and anti-matter! That means all matter and all anti-matter--crossing over to every single different reality in existence!" 

X-MAN #55 (Page 15) 
"The guardians are actually living facets of the crystal itself--empowered by the entire neutron galaxy at its heart--completely invulnerable...indestructible...invincible!"

Last edited by Ant-Man on 14 Feb 2005 08:12 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 07:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Russ: 

You'd ... like me to assume that a *human* named Mojo, from the Ultimate Universe -- which hasn't even been shown to be a canon part of the Marvel Multiverse -- is "evidence of an alternate Mojo"? I see. 

Evidence that I'd accept includes: 

- An alternate-world tale in which the Mojoverse is destroyed, or Mojo is killed. 

- An alternate-world tale in which the Watcher or some other omniscient entity defines that story's Mojo or Mojoverse as an alternate. 

- An alternate-world tale that branches off during a Mojo-related event. ("What If ... Mojo won his duel with Longshot [from Longshot #6]?") 

As for asking if Mojo, or the Mojoverse, is the singularity ... I get the feeling it's both. One Mojoverse, ruled by one Mojo. He explicitly says "there are no alternate reality me's" in Exiles #18, but he also says "Mojoverse is a junction for all realities", and that leads me to think that it's the Mojoverse itself that's the singularity -- and anything IN it remains a singularity as well, unless it leaves. Therefore, as long as Mojo stays IN the Mojoverse, he's immune to bifurcation. 

(And yes, I'm aware that he's left the Mojoverse occasionally. Presumably he got lucky and didn't happen to bifurcate while he was out -- otherwise, two of him would have tried to return to the same Mojoverse.) 

If "there's only one Mojo" is such a preposterous claim, why don't we try thinking of it in terms of his other claim: "The Mojoverse is a junction for all realities". We know nothing of the Mojoverse -- so it COULD be a junction. What makes THAT such a hard claim to swallow? 

Quote: 
>>>
What exactly are we debating? 
<<<

Whether or not the Mojo in WI2 #59 is our guy. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 07:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I've edited the subject line, since we haven't talked about the In-Betweener for 29 posts now. 

I think the argument's boiled down to two camps: "It could be possible" vs. "It's not plausible". And I don't think either side's going to give. 

So, changing tack a little, what does everyone think of the implication that Mojo's happened to have fought at least 4 of the 6 Exiles, and observed the world of a 5th (Blink)? Pure coincidence that he's happened to have run into 5/6ths of them, or implied evidence that he's probably had dealings with a large percentage of ALL the alt-reality X-teams? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 08:01 pm    
By Jim Smith

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Nice open minds here in this thread. Don't bother to go and find evidence from the books, don't bother to consider his resources, don't even try to imagine plausible scenarios for his claim -- just talk about how insane he is over and over. 
<<<

You know, I've seen a dozen different reasons put forth to not take Mojo's claims of sinulgarity at face value, only one of which being that he's crazy enough to make it up or be mistaken. The only one who keeps saying the same thing over and over and over is you and your "How dare you dismiss the possibility because Mojo's insane!" 

Is it possible that's the 616 Mojo in What If #59? I dunno, maybe. Is it impossible that it isn't 616 Mojo? I'm not convinced. There's no way to be sure one way or the other with the information at hand. 

In any event, your theory seems to boil down to Mojo being the only Mojo alive in the multiverse, because Spiral assassinated the rest. Going by that, why can't the Mojo in WI? 59 be an AU Mojo whom Spiral hasn't whacked yet? Kang had all his iterations killed years ago; that doesn't make the remaining Kang the only one who ever existed ever--it just makes him lucky. 

Please, feel free to completely ignore everything I've just said and tell me I'm saying "Mojo is insane."

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 08:40 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
I've seen a dozen different reasons put forth to not take Mojo's claims of sinulgarity at face value 

A dozen? I see like three. The largest and loudest and most constant of which is "he's barking mad". 

Quote: 
your theory seems to boil down to Mojo being the only Mojo alive in the multiverse, because Spiral assassinated the rest. 

Nope -- that's just a POSSIBILITY that I posited. I've also posited that the Mojoverse is just plain weird, and HAPPENS to be a singularity -- I've also posited that Spiral cast a spell on the Mojoverse to MAKE it a singularity. 

Personally, out of my three theories, I like the "Spiral killed the other Mojos" the LEAST -- because it would involve multiple Mojoworlds, all but one bereft of their rulers. 

I lean towards the theory of the Mojoverse being a singularity because of its weird status as a "junction", and Mojo happily enjoying that fact. 

But you bring up a very good point -- even if Mojo IS right, we have no idea when he, or the Mojoverse, BECAME a singularity. It could have been one all along -- but it *could* have become one as a result of some action taken -- by Mojo or by someone else -- *after* the events in WI2 #59. (Which occured back around the time of UX #122-129.) 

So I suppose that even if we DID decide that Mojo's right, that doesn't prove that he's *always* been a singularity. So, for the purposes of deciding about WI2 #59, I guess this whole discussion is basically ... pointless. 

Unless we uncover additional information from the books. Which is what I've been asking people for this whole time. 

Right now, based on Exiles #18, I'd say we've got an 85% chance that the Mojo in WI2 #59 is our guy. 

Once again, though -- If anyone has any more information from any other books, that can help us figure things out one way or the other -- I'd like very much to see it. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Feb 2005 11:00 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
I do have one quick question: is there anyone here that has any opposition to Jahf's claim that there is only one Jahf and one Modt shared by the various realities? (I'm just curious--I don't want there to be another debate!) 
<<<

Maybe, maybe not. Even if not, that could have still been the Earth-616 version of Modt in Gambit & The X-Ternals #3 if either: 

a) Earth-616 was actually replaced by / turned into the Age of Apocalypse timeline as some AoA stories suggested (in which case post-AoA stories set in the AoA are actually set in a divergent version of the AoA timeline); 

or b) the Earth-616 Modt & Jahf were shunted into the AoA when the crystal wave hit Earth-616. (Far less likely and more implausible.) 

Regardless, I'd assume that that was Earth-616 Jahf in GAM&XT 3 unless it's explicitly confirmed that there are multiple Jahfs in the multiverse and that the AoA didn't temporarily replace Earth-616. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Feb 2005 11:12 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So, changing tack a little, what does everyone think of the implication that Mojo's happened to have fought at least 4 of the 6 Exiles, and observed the world of a 5th (Blink)? Pure coincidence that he's happened to have run into 5/6ths of them, or implied evidence that he's probably had dealings with a large percentage of ALL the alt-reality X-teams? 
<<<

Not having read the issue in question, it's not exactly implausible that each of the Exiles has encountered their own timeline's version of Mojo, and that the various Mojos keep tabs on some/many/most/"all" of their own alternates' actions. Given the plot-device nature of the Exiles series, it's not unlikely that the Exiles would happen upon the (a) Mojo who's familiar with all of their respective timelines. 

One fairly largehole in the Unified Mojo Theory is the inevitable existence of Mojoverse expatriates (Longshot, Spiral, Shatterstar, and others). If the Mojoverse is unique, why haven't we seen or heard mention of divergent versions of some or all of these running around there? Surely the Mojoverse revolutionaries would love to have a theoretically infinite supply of Longshots and Dazzlers on their side, and vice versa for Mojo and multiple Spirals. Are the Earth-616 versions of said characters supposed to have been the only ones to have returned to the Mojoverse after leaving? Unless the Mojoverse isn't unique but Mojo is, which raises another load of logisical issues. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2005 02:43 am    
By Jim Smith

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I've seen a dozen different reasons put forth to not take Mojo's claims of sinulgarity at face value 
<<<

A dozen? I see like three. The largest and loudest and most constant of which is "he's barking mad". 
<<<

Twelve, three, whatever. My point is that I've tried several times to construct an argument along the lines of "Mojo's insanity notwithstanding..." and all I get from you is "Will someone say something besides 'Mojo's insane'?" I find this intensely frustrating. 

In a nutshell, then, reasons why I don't take Mojo at his word: 

1) He's a bad guy, and bad guys are known to lie. 

2) His claims are rather lofty--Mojo doesn't strike me as the sort of cosmic being who attains the status of singularity. If he was claiming something that is easily within his reach, I'd just assume he's got no reason to lie, but this strikes me as a bit of a stretch. (I know, I know, Spiral can make it happen. But if Mojo says "I'm president of the United States," it doesn't automatically mean that the most reasonable conclusion is that Spiral has taken out the commander-in-chief.) 

3) I don't know how you check whether you're the only one of your kind in the multiverse, and unless Mojo has the awareness of a Watcher I don't see how he could know for sure, even if he thinks he can be. For all we know he thinks he's the only one, and there's some other Mojo out there chortling because he thinks he's the only one. 


Quote: 
>>>
Unless we uncover additional information from the books. Which is what I've been asking people for this whole time. 
<<<

There is no additional information, Jeph--if someone could provide concrete evidence that multiple Mojos and multiple Mojoverses exist, they'd have done so by now. There is no way to decide if that's Mojo in WI? 59. It could be. It could not be. Someday evidence may see publication, but someday it may be revealed that the Fantastic Four have been Space Phantoms since 1961. 

All we have to go on is the generalization that most Marvel characters are not singularities, and that Mojo is far from the most reliable source on who is and is not a singularity. Which is all I've been saying all along--he may be right, but we'd need more than a "maybe" to declare Mojo a singularity. Whether I'm open to the theory doesn't change the fact that it's still only a theory.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2005 08:39 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I've tried several times to construct an argument along the lines of "Mojo's insanity notwithstanding..." and all I get from you is "Will someone say something besides 'Mojo's insane'?" I find this intensely frustrating. 
<<<

Well, I do apologize. I find this entire thread intensely frustrating, to be honest, but I'm sorry I'm aggravating you. 

I think we're starting to go in circles here, but let's go through your arguments: 


Quote: 
>>>
1) He's a bad guy, and bad guys are known to lie. 
<<<

This is a pretty weak argument ... in previous posts, didn't this start out as "I don't know anything about Mojo, but I assume he's a bad guy, and bad guys lie"? 

I'll refrain from arguing whether or not he's a "bad guy" -- and instead I'll ask, what reason did Mojo HAVE to lie to the Exiles about being a singularity? He wasn't running a scam on them ... it basically came up in conversation. Nocturne said "oh no, an alternate Mojo?", and he took the opportunity to correct her. 

Rather than "he's a bad guy," I would have gone with an argument of "he's an egomaniac, and egomaniacs are known to delude themselves". 


Quote: 
>>>
His claims are rather lofty--Mojo doesn't strike me as the sort of cosmic being who attains the status of singularity. 
<<<

You're quite right -- Mojo's not a cosmic being at all. Rather, as I've said before, I lean towards the notion that the Mojoverse is unique in some way -- possibly not a "linear dimension" as the rest of the alternate Earths are, but some kind of hub. 

And Mojo *just happens* to be a singularity, as a result of being born there -- as is everything else on Mojoverse, including Arize, Major and Minor Domo, and the rest of the Spineless Ones. 

Mojo claims that "Mojoverse is a crossroads for all dimensions". Is THAT too lofty a claim? 


Quote: 
>>>
3) I don't know how you check whether you're the only one of your kind in the multiverse 
<<<

Spiral? All that equipment he uses to monitor and travel to other dimensions? Spiral? 


Quote: 
>>>
There is no additional information, Jeph--if someone could provide concrete evidence that multiple Mojos and multiple Mojoverses exist, they'd have done so by now. 
<<<

Have you LOOKED? I'm hoping that someone will give us some details on the alternate Spirals mentioned in this thread, in What If v2 #46 and #50. (Did I get those issue numbers right?) If I had the issues I'd check myself, but I don't. 

Okay, I'm tangenting again here, but what OTHER singularities exist in the Marvel Multiverse? There's the Living Tribunal -- possibly the M'Kraan Crystal -- and Immortus' Limbo, is that right? 

Anything else I'm missing? What about the Negative Zone? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2005 11:36 am    
By Somebody

Obvious question - if that's "our" Mojoverse and Spiral in Exiles 18-19, didn't Spiral get tattooed by the Crimson Dawn in late Excalibur (v1)? 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Sasquatch, Nocturne and Mimic recognize Mojo as well -- and Sunfire has a line that implies that she at least has *heard* of Mojo. That's all the Exiles except Blink. 

And while you're going to argue that they met an alternate Mojo, this Mojo appears to recognize that he's seen THEM before, too. His line to the Exiles as a group is "All the times that you very fine, beautiful folks have visited my world or starred in my motion pictures ... well, you starred for ME." If Mojo only recognized one of the six people in front of him, I don't think he would have phrased it that way. 
<<<

It's consistant with the previous and subsequent sentences - even Mojo isn't THAT barking to mix himself up within such a short space of time. It doesn't give any additional proof either way. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
This doesn't imply that he's a singularity -- but it implies that he's run into four to five sixths of the Exiles, plus the mainstream X-Men ... and what are the odds of that? That out of seven *randomly chosen* timelines, Mojo's run into five or six of them? Mojo gets around. 
<<<

Mojo obviously knows about the Exiles to yank them out of mid-teleport. It's not entirely out of the question that he took a look back through their timelines (via Spiral) at that point. It's not even out of the question that he saw them go to their Mojoverses and then thought that that was him they were starring for. 

It's more plausible than "Spiral dunnit all" anyway - and what proof do we have that he's run into the 616 X-Men anyway? You're working from the assumption that he's the only Mojo, THEREFORE... 

Besides, where's the proof of Blink, Sunfire & Sasquatch? He knows of Blink, she doesn't know of him - he could have "looked her up." Mimic outright states he's fought (his) Mojo three times, Morph knowing THIS Mojo is a major part of the story, and Nocturne recognises him as "an alternate Mojo". Sasquatch you could maybe spin her "oh sweet mother of crap" as "Not Mojo" (or you could spin it as "What IS this big lump of raving yellow blubber and who is this six-armed **** in front of him with a big gun & swords"). Mariko squints a bit on seeing them, that's it. Two confirmed visitors, one definite "I know him", one MAYBE "I know him", one nothing at all and one "I don't know him at all." 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
EDIT: In Uncanny X-Men #393, published (and probably occuring) before Exiles #18-19, Mojo displays a knowledge of the Age of Apocalypse universe. 
<<<

How closely were you reading Ex18? He does call her "you saucy little Age of A-crap-o-lips cockroach" on the page after the stuff we're all debating. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
So that means that he's aware of FIVE of the six Exiles' home dimensions -- possibly ALL of them if Sunfire's line referencing Mojo means that she or her dimension has tangled with him. His odds just went up -- out of seven randomly chosen universes, Mojo knows of 6-7 of them ... that's 85-100%. 
<<<

What "Sunfire comment"? The "inbred" thing? 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Oh for crying out loud, people. Just find me a What If comic where Mojo is killed and we'll call it a freaking day. How many times do I have to ask for in-book evidence of alternate Mojos before I get some feedback? 
<<<

And what would that prove? IIRC, Mojo was killed in X-Men #13 and was implied to have been killed in UXM393. The big lump of blubber returned once and (if we take Mojo's word for it), either returned the second time or stopped the AoAbabies in time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2005 12:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I really really hate this discussion. 

Quote: 
>>>
if that's "our" Mojoverse and Spiral in Exiles 18-19, didn't Spiral get tattooed by the Crimson Dawn in late Excalibur (v1)? 
<<<

That tattoo has vanished and reappeared on Spiral before, I believe. Spiral's about to headline in the "X-Force: Shatterstar" miniseries, and from the preview pages I've seen, she hasn't got it there. I wouldn't think that a woman who runs the "Body Shoppe" would have much trouble removing a tattoo, magical or not. 


Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
His line to the Exiles as a group is "All the times that you very fine, beautiful folks have visited my world or starred in my motion pictures ... well, you starred for ME." 
<<<

It's consistant with the previous and subsequent sentences - even Mojo isn't THAT barking to mix himself up within such a short space of time. It doesn't give any additional proof either way. 
<<<

Huh? Sure it does. This is Mojo *explicitly* telling the specific heroes standing in front of him that, every time they've been to "a" Mojoworld, it was "his" Mojoworld. 


Quote: 
>>>
Mojo obviously knows about the Exiles to yank them out of mid-teleport. It's not entirely out of the question that he took a look back through their timelines (via Spiral) at that point. It's not even out of the question that he saw them go to their Mojoverses and then thought that that was him they were starring for. 
<<<

Granted, it's obvious that Mojo has done his research. So what you're saying is, he made a mistake in his research -- mistook the antics of an alternate-reality Mojo for himself? My question, then, is ... wouldn't he say "hmm, I don't remember doing THAT or fighting THEM"? 


Quote: 
>>>
what proof do we have that he's run into the 616 X-Men anyway? You're working from the assumption that he's the only Mojo, THEREFORE... 
<<<

Actually, I'm working on the assumption that Judd Winick intended it to be the "real" Mojo. Which, since he's got Mojo claiming that there's only one of him, was very clearly his intent. 

If you want to go that route -- questioning if we always see the same "version" of ANY extradimensional or extratemporal villain -- how do we have any proof that the X-Men have fought the same Mojo every time before this? It could have been two or three different Mojos -- all bifurcated off after they met the X-Men, and all wanting to capture and cast the X-Men again, all acting at different times. Should we debate THAT possibility for days? 

At a certain point, if you want to question enough assumptions, EVERYTHING breaks down. How do we know that the DoFP Rachel Summers we saw in UX #141-142 was the same one that travelled back in time to UX #184? 


Quote: 
>>>
where's the proof of Blink, Sunfire & Sasquatch? 
<<<

Well, like we both said -- Mojo is clearly familiar with the AoA universe, even though he's never fought their X-Men. So that's Blink done. Sasquatch obviously recognizes him on sight, so that's her. And Sunfire ... I don't have the book in front of me, but Sunfire has one line when they're looking for Longshot's jailhouse that indicates that she's at least familiar with the concept of Mojo. It's very vague, though, which is why I've never cited it as a definite in any of my previous posts. 


Quote: 
>>>
Mimic outright states he's fought (his) Mojo three times, Morph knowing THIS Mojo is a major part of the story, and Nocturne recognises him as "an alternate Mojo". 
<<<

Well, Nocturne doesn't "recognize" him as an alternate Mojo, she *assumes* that he's an alternate Mojo. So, yeah, except for Blink (and Sunfire?), they all recognize "a" Mojo. 

And then, as I've said above and previously, Mojo informs them that, those of them that have visited "a" Mojoworld in the past, visited HIS. 

Since, as you pointed out, he's clearly done his research ... you'd think he'd know, and be able to state with certainty, that yes -- four (or five) of these particular heroes have been to HIS Mojoworld. 

Unless -- by your argument -- he's mistaken, and took the antics of other Mojos to be his own. Which means he has a really bad memory, and thinks he's done stuff and fought people that he's never met before. And that's not all that plausible of an argument, I'm sorry to say. 

Clearly, Judd Winick's intent was that -- "since there's only one Mojo" -- all the heroes that recognize him have actually encountered HIM. There's simply no other way to interpret those lines that doesn't run counter to the author's intent. 


Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Just find me a What If comic where Mojo is killed 
<<<

And what would that prove? IIRC, Mojo was killed in X-Men #13 and was implied to have been killed in UXM393. 
<<<

I can't answer "what it would prove" until I see "it". Sorry. It might prove a lot, it might prove nothing. Depends what "it" turns out to be. I suppose if we actually found anything close to what I'm asking for, then we could debate it and see if it did prove anything. 

Again -- can anyone give me some details about the alternate Spirals in the issues I've mentioned? Did any of them have any insight about "their" Mojos? Did any die? 

By the way, Longshot was also implied to have been killed in UX #393. Should we then assume that the Mojoverse seen in Exiles #18-19 is *automatically* a bifurcation, because Dazzler's implications *must* be right? Or should we assume that Dazzler was mistaken, and that Mojo eventually defeated the AoA-Babies, imprisoned Longshot, and rebuilt Mojoworld? 

It's hard to say -- but since Judd Winick's intent, regardless of Mojo's claim to singularity, was that this was the "real" Mojo and "real" Longshot -- I'm going with that option. 

---- 

At this point, folks, I really don't care one way or the other if Mojo's right or not. 

But if anyone could provide me with a list of OTHER Multiversal singularities ... or confirm or deny the ones I mentioned in my last post ... I'd appreciate it. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 04:04 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
[I'm hoping that someone will give us some details on the alternate Spirals mentioned in this thread, in What If v2 #46 and #50. (Did I get those issue numbers right?) If I had the issues I'd check myself, but I don't. 
<<<

In WI2 46, Cable kills Professor X, Cyclops and Marvel Girl, leading to a breakup of the X-Men. The X-Men's old enemies take advantage of the chaos and commit a little crime. 

In a one-panel shot, Freedom Force, including Spiral, fights off an attack by the Morlocks. 

WI2 50 is a more substantial appearance. In it, Hulk kills Wolverine (from H2 340), which means he's not around to help save the day from the Adversary (in UX 225). Freedom Force, including Spiral, helps the X-Men regroup. Spiral does play a role in the final defeat of Adversary. 

I don't see anything in those two books that clears up any questions. 


watching: catherine cryer

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 05:15 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Damn. But thank you! 

Just so nobody thinks I'm slacking, I've been doing my own research -- and actually GOT something. 

In Wolverine #52, Spiral confirms the existence of alternate Spirals! 

"Spirals to the Nth power! I have entered / am entering / will be entering the time stream at a number of loci that is an infinite geometric series converging to A/(1-R)! ... Of course I'm not sane! You can't have multiple temporal existences in a sane universe! ... In the cathode beam polarized by my sword -- the shades of the once and future Spiral -- all dancing towards the temporal convergence ... the Crunch!" 

Can I say just how much I love Larry Hama's dialogue?  

No, really, I love the guy. 

And in this same story, Mojo displays a startling control of the space-time continuum. He's built a planet-sized Citadel At The End Of Time, and trapped "every time-shifter, trans-dimensional tripper and space-time juggler in the continuum ... in multiple existences." This Citadel is powerful enough to *delay* the Big Crunch, the end of the universe, and Mojo has things worked out so that "everything BUT me -- and a few selected entities blink off into nothingness!" He also has an alternate-future Jubilee doing his bidding, and he's endowed her with similar space-time powers as Spiral. 

This story DIDN'T show or hint that Mojo or the Mojoverse is a singularity -- in fact, by confirming alternate Spirals it may be used as evidence that he's NOT a singularity -- but it showed me that Mojo has a LOT more time/space power than we've been assuming. Of course, he gets flustered and finds himself unable to time-shift out of the way of a cruise missile -- but nobody's perfect. 

The guy was holding up the end of the universe, and was busily arranging things so that he'd survive the end of everything. That's a lot of power. 

Think he'd be able to make the Mojoverse a singularity if he wanted to?  


At least I can rest easy about one thing: there ARE alternate Spirals -- so I don't have to waste time worrying about how to categorize her appearances in WI2 #46 and 50. 

And hey, any feedback on other Singularities? Is the Negative Zone one or not? What about Immortus' limbo? Have we ever seen an alternate M'Kraan crystal (anyone with "What If Phoenix"-type comics, now's your moment)? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 07:19 pm    
By Enda80

The Negative Zone could not serve as a singularity. We have seen Annihilus of What If stories quite a few times; In What If II#35 one of them died. So, I would say that more than one Annihilus exists in the multiverse. 
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 
Set....Set presents a challenge, because Marvel Two-In-One#66 reads as if only one Set powers all the Serpent Crowns in the multiverse. It was speculated that the multiverse might have only one Set.....but an alternate Set was seen in What If II#25 and Quasar#30. I did a post about this earlier. I do not know how to handle this, other than to say that the various versions of Set work together. 
;....................................................................................... 
Immortus is tricky. It has been stated that the multiverse seems to have only one Immortus....but problems came up during Timequake. 

In What If II#38, Irondroid recalls from reading the files of the original Avengers the events that took place in Avengers West Coast#62. That last bit seems a bit curious, as the Irondroids world diverged from Earth-616 long before the events of AWC#62. 

The only way to justify this is to say that the Avengers of this alternate Earth for some reason had started to monitor Earth-616. A bit forced, I admit. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/cosaveng.htm 
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 

I think that an alternate M'Kraan crystal was seen in What If (second series)#23 "What if the All-New, All-Different X-Men Had Never 
Existed?" 

Writer: Kurt Busiek 
Artist: Rodney Ramos 
Inker: Doug Hazlewood 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/timelines/message/713 

Two weeks later, Lilandra Nermani shows up in the Xavier Mansion. She informs them that Eric the Red served as an agent of her nihilistic brother D'Ken. Using a stargate, she takes them to confront 
Modt, a guardian of the M'Krann crystal, and the Imperial Guard, who serve Emperor D'Ken. The Imperial Guard engaging Modt in battle for the moment, the mutants see the Starjammers imprisoned nearby. They 
free them, and work with them to prevent the Imperial Guard from acquiring and activating the M'Krann crystal. 
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 
"And hey, any feedback on other Singularities? Is the Negative Zone one or not? What about Immortus' limbo? Have we ever seen an alternate M'Kraan crystal (anyone with "What If Phoenix"-type comics, now's your moment)?" 


http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/abscissa.htm 
Thank you for reminding me about that Wolverine story. 
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/timelines/message/710 

Comments: The Thor in this story remembers the Protectroid and the Citadel at the End of Time from his adventures in Thor#243-245. Also, Irondroid recalls from reading the files of the original Avengers the 
events that took place in Avengers West Coast#62. That last bit seems a bit curious, as the Irondroid's world diverged from Earth-616 long before the events of AWC#62. 

Was this helpful?

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 07:21 pm    
By Enda80

By the way, can we add the Living Tribunal's Guardians of the Galaxy appearances to his chronology? There is only one of him, so that will serve as his future, come hell of high water as it were.

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 07:34 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Guardians of the Galaxy hasn't been analyzed, so...no, not yet. 


watching: extreme makeover

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 09:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The Negative Zone could not serve as a singularity. We have seen Annihilus of What If stories quite a few times; In What If II#35 one of them died. 
<<<

Good, thanks. 


Quote: 
>>>
Immortus is tricky. It has been stated that the multiverse seems to have only one Immortus....but problems came up during Timequake. 
<<<

Problems like what? 

I'm fairly sure that Immortus' LIMBO is a singular realm ... although a brisk re-reading of Avengers Forever might be in order. 

Are the Time-Keepers and Time-Twisters Singularities? 


Quote: 
>>>
In What If II#38, Irondroid recalls from reading the files of the original Avengers the events that took place in Avengers West Coast#62. That last bit seems a bit curious, as the Irondroids world diverged from Earth-616 long before the events of AWC#62. 

The only way to justify this is to say that the Avengers of this alternate Earth for some reason had started to monitor Earth-616. A bit forced, I admit. 
<<<

I wouldn't say that's the ONLY way to justify it -- in fact, on the page you link to, they explicitly offer ANOTHER justification: 


Quote: 
>>>
the events of Avengers West Coast #62 would be likely to still occur ... Despite the changes present in the worlds, it is possible that many of the same conflicts still did happen, they were likely just taken care of much quicker, with help from the Ultra-Vision. 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
I think that an alternate M'Kraan crystal was seen in What If (second series)#23 
<<<

I think I have that issue ... I'll look into that, thanks. 


Quote: 
>>>
The Thor in this story remembers the Protectroid and the Citadel at the End of Time from his adventures in Thor#243-245. 
<<<

That link you provided is members-only, so I don't know which story you're referring to. But, uh-oh, the Citadel at the End of Time was around before Wolverine v2 #52? Is it the same thing (a large, craggy, planety machine-thing)? Did Mojo hijack the Citadel for his own purposes? Or is Mojo's Citadel an entirely different thing that happens to have the same name? 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, Irondroid recalls from reading the files of the original Avengers the events that took place in Avengers West Coast#62. That last bit seems a bit curious, as the Irondroid's world diverged from Earth-616 long before the events of AWC#62. 
<<<

Why did you say this twice? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 10:02 pm    
By Enda80

"Immortus is tricky. It has been stated that the multiverse seems to have only one Immortus....but problems came up during Timequake. 

Problems like what? " 

If only one Immortus exists in the multiverse, then any alternate Earth diverging before Avengers I#62 could not have had an Immortus visitation mirroring that story. In Avengers I#62, Immortus took the Avengers to Limbo where he was immobilized by the Timekeepers. Unless you allow a single Immortus getting immobilized twice, the problem becomes apparent. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/timetwisters.htm 
(Avengers West Coast#62 (and other issues, see comments) - The Time-Twisters gained ascendance over the Keepers and they, posing as the Time-Keepers, guided Immortus to eliminate a number of realities that would decrease their dominance in existence at the end of time. They also guided Immortus to guide the eventual transmutation of a particular nexus being into a source of power. Immortus chose the Scarlet Witch to fill this role, but eventually she threw off his control. The Twisters then intervened, allegedly with the intent of stopping the accumulated energy from putting all future timelines into jeopardy. They then transferred the energy the Scarlet Witch had expelled into Immortus, rendering him immobile and serving as a receptacle for temporal energy which they could then manipulate.

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Posted: 14 Feb 2005 11:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
If only one Immortus exists in the multiverse, then any alternate Earth diverging before Avengers I#62 could not have had an Immortus visitation mirroring that story. In Avengers I#62, Immortus took the Avengers to Limbo where he was immobilized by the Timekeepers. Unless you allow a single Immortus getting immobilized twice, the problem becomes apparent. 
<<<

Hunrh? Avengers I #62 is all about Black Panther battling Man-Ape. At first, I thought you meant Avengers West Coast #62, but since there never was a volume II, I'm not sure what the "I" means. 


watching: jimmy kimmel

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 08:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

Still lost. Assuming you mean AWC #62, not A #62... 

Quote: 
>>>
If only one Immortus exists in the multiverse, then any alternate Earth diverging before [AWC] #62 could not have had an Immortus visitation mirroring that story. In [AWC] #62, Immortus took the Avengers to Limbo where he was immobilized by the Timekeepers. Unless you allow a single Immortus getting immobilized twice, the problem becomes apparent. 
<<<

And ... HAVE some alternate Earths had stories where "their" Immortus was frozen? 

This is the second time I've asked you to explain the problems with Immortus allegedly being a singularity ... you really need to give us the whole story when you post. Not all of us are as familiar with the stories you're referencing as you are, and the links you provide don't always supply the details needed. Before you hit "post", you may want to sit back and re-read what you just wrote, check for typos and sentence structure, and see if it makes sense to a casual reader. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 04:07 pm    
By DonCampbell

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Are the Time-Keepers and Time-Twisters Singularities? 
<<<

Good question. They have certainly been treated as being unique in the multiverse/timestream even though, in theory, there should be one set of them for each "End of Time" that exists. And since a constantly-diverging multiverse means that multiple timelines exist, each with its own ending, there should be multiple sets of Time-Keepers/Time-Twisters, right? 

This problem was explained away in the "Timequake" storyline which revealed that their creator, He Who Remains, was the last director of the Time Variance Authority (which is itself multiversal in nature and exists outside of normal time). Given that there was thus only one version of that last director, He Who Remains (presumably) chose only one "End of Time" as his base of operations for creating the beings who became the Time-Twisters. However, that single timeline did experience a FINAL divergence when Zarrko, Thor and some friends visited the Citadel at the End of Time and managed to convince He Who Remains that his creations were flawed and would become the destructive Time-Twisters. In one reality, He Who Remains retroactively terminated the Time-Twisters before they had ever been born and went on to create their replacements, the Time-Keepers, but another reality exists in which the Time-Twisters (somehow) continued to exist. 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
But, uh-oh, the Citadel at the End of Time was around before Wolverine v2 #52? Is it the same thing (a large, craggy, planety machine-thing)? Did Mojo hijack the Citadel for his own purposes? Or is Mojo's Citadel an entirely different thing that happens to have the same name? 
<<<

The Citadel at the End of Time which the Time-Keepers used as their base of operations was also their place of origin. It is a temple built on a (non-spherical) planetoid orbiting the "final, primal sun" mere hours before that star is destined to explode in a supernova that will bring the current cycle of time to a close. It doesn't really sound like Mojo's citadel, does it? 

By the way, the fact that the Thor from What If II #39 remembers the Protectroids and the Citadel at the End of Time from his adventures in Thor#245 is actually a mistake. When He Who Remains terminated the Time-Twisters-to-be before they were born, he retroactively erased all of their effects on history. As a result, Thor's teaming up with Zarrko to oppose the Time-Twisters in THOR #243-245 was an adventure which was made to unhappen and thus Thor should not have remembered it. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
If only one Immortus exists in the multiverse, then any alternate Earth diverging before [AWC] #62 could not have had an Immortus visitation mirroring that story. In [AWC] #62, Immortus took the Avengers to Limbo where he was immobilized by the Timekeepers. Unless you allow a single Immortus getting immobilized twice, the problem becomes apparent. 
<<<

And ... HAVE some alternate Earths had stories where "their" Immortus was frozen? 
<<<

The only evidence of such an alternate Earth is Irondroid's recollection of reading the files of the original Avengers concerning the events that took place in AWC #62...and that reference was a mistake on the part of writer Roy Thomas. Irondroid comes from a timeline which diverged from the mainstream reality when the Vision took over the world. Since that divergence occurred during Avengers #254, any event which happened in the mainstream reality after that point should not be part of the common past shared by the Earth-616 timeline and the reality depicted in What If II #19/1. 

Immortus is based in True Limbo, an extratemporal realm in which divergences CANNOT occur. And since Immortus spent (almost) all of his time there, that means that there is ONE AND ONLY ONE Immortus in the whole multiverse. Therefore, if he was imprisoned by the false Time-Keepers in AWC #62 after his plan to transform the Scarlet Witch from Earth-616 was thwarted, then he could not possibly have been able to abduct another Scarlet Witch from an already-diverged timeline in order to try again. The fact that Immortus is/was unique in the multiverse means that he had ONE AND ONLY ONE chance to use ONE particular Wanda from ONE divergent Earth to become the Master of Time and when his plan failed, that was it, there COULD NOT be any second chances on other timelines. 

Some people try to explain away this problem by suggesting that Immortus could have tried to transform the Wanda from Irondroid's timeline BEFORE he tried to use Wanda-616 in AWC #61-62. The problem with this idea is that Irondroid clearly recalls reading that that adventure ended with Immortus put into permanent storage in Limbo by the (false) Time-Keepers. Accepting this idea would mean that Immortus made two nearly-identical attempts to transform two divergent Wandas into his personal power source and that both attempts ended with him standing frozen and bereft of free will in True Limbo. The dialogue in AWC #62 and the "Timequake" storyline just doesn't support this idea. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
Since that divergence occurred during Avengers #254, any event which happened in the mainstream reality after that point should not be part of the common past... 
<<<

Really? Any event? You don't mean that, do you? I mean, What If...Peter Parker took a high school job as a radio deejay, instead of a newspaper photographer? Do we now have a timeline where Galactus can't attempt to eat the planet? And even if two events are closely related, I don't buy the claim that the later event can't happen. What If...Reed Richards had the powers of Invisible Woman, and Sue Storm had the powers of Mr. Fantastic? Does that mean they can't get married? 

Unless there's something more specific in your citations that prevents Irondroid from referencing events in AWC 62, then of course, the events he's referencing could have happened. 


DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
Immortus is based in True Limbo, an extratemporal realm in which divergences CANNOT occur. And since Immortus spent (almost) all of his time there, that means that there is ONE AND ONLY ONE Immortus in the whole multiverse. 
<<<

Non sequitor. (I hope I've used the Latin correctly. If not, forgive me.) Since Immortus didn't spend all of his time there, we could have an unlimited number of Immortusi running about, bumping into each other. 


watching: seinfeld

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 05:35 pm    
By Enda80

The Avengers Index stated that there was only one Immortus. See the entry for #10.

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 06:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Gee, you make that sound pretty definitive. You want to share with everyone the disclaimer that you left out? 


watching: everybody loves raymond

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 06:22 pm    
By Enda80

I was working off of memory, I did not have it here in front of me. Did I forget something?

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 06:35 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Wow, I'm impressed. I didn't see how anyone could simply remember that, and the citation, without reading it straight out of the books, so I apologize if my tone made it sound like you were trying to mislead people, cause that's what I thought. Here's what the first volume of the Official Index had to say (emphasis mine): 

Official Marvel Index to the Avengers wrote: 
unlike Kang, Immortus has no divergent counterparts _as far as is known_; 


watching: everybody loves raymond

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 10:52 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
The Negative Zone could not serve as a singularity. We have seen Annihilus of What If stories quite a few times; In What If II#35 one of them died. 
<<<

Good, thanks. 
<<< 

Not so fast, milado! 

The "real" Annihilus died in FF3 #44, and was shown re-hatching. Indeed, Fantastic Four: Foes #2 makes a point of saying that he died and has come back to life. That's part of his schtick. 

And I think what Jeph was originally getting at is that the Negative Zone has been repeatedly used as a bridge between different realities. Certainly, it's notable in Heroes Reborn: The Return but also "Secret Wars III" circa FF #318-319, and I believe Mark Millar suggested the use of the Negative Zone in an upcoming Ultimate FF arc. 

Now, that's not to say that the Negative Zone is a singularity, but I don't know of any evidence offhand to say with certainty that it is not. I haven't double-checked my WI isssues yet, but unless Annihilus (or Blastaar or...) makes a point of NOT recognizing characters that they've already met, you don't have a good case for the NZ being a non-singularity.

Last edited by SKleefeld on 15 Feb 2005 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 11:03 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Non sequitor. (I hope I've used the Latin correctly. If not, forgive me.) 
<<<

Used properly, spelled wrong... 
American Heritage Dictionary wrote: 
non sequitur Pronunciation Key (non sek'wi-ter, -toor) 
n. 
1. An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence. 
2. A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
{Latin nn sequitur, it does not follow : nn, not + sequitur, third person sing. present tense of sequ, to follow.} 

Just trying to enrich everybody's mind. 

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 11:13 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Can I say just how much I love Larry Hama's dialogue?  
<<<

Plus, he's just an all-around nice guy! 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And in this same story, Mojo displays a startling control of the space-time continuum. He's built a planet-sized Citadel At The End Of Time, and trapped "every time-shifter, trans-dimensional tripper and space-time juggler in the continuum ... in multiple existences." This Citadel is powerful enough to *delay* the Big Crunch, the end of the universe, and Mojo has things worked out so that "everything BUT me -- and a few selected entities blink off into nothingness!"  
<<<

Wait. You're telling me that Mojo created, and there exists in the MU, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe? Does that mean that we can hope to see some MU characters steal Hotblack Desiato's spaceship? Is this where Reed Richards gets the idea to invent peril-sensitive sunglasses? Does Spider-Man learn to fly when he falls to the ground and misses? 

Next issue: Dr. Doom threatens to take over the world using his most powerful weapon yet: Vogon poetry! 

Sorry. Can't wait 'til the movie comes out! 

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Posted: 15 Feb 2005 11:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Forget What If...? I'm still waiting for someone to bring the Not Brand Ecch stories into the multiverse... 


watching: sports center

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 12:40 am
By Jason Doty

Wasn't there an alternate universe "Age of Apocalypse" Annihulus in the Blink limited series? That would make the case for the Negative Zone not being a singularity.

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 08:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

It's been a long time since I've read that story, but I'm pretty sure that there were some references to Annihilus and/or Blastaar having met the 616 Fantastic Four. I seem to recall some "floating head" pictures of the 616 FF around Blink #2. 

And, Sean, you're right -- the use of the Negative Zone to get from one dimension to another is what made me think it might be a singularity -- or a "crossroads", like Limbo seems to be and like Mojo claims Mojoworld is. 

If I can establish that crossroads exist -- and that, in general, they're singularities -- we might be able to extrapolate Mojoworld from there. 

(Hmm. Does anybody remember the BAR called Crossroads from Chris Claremont's "Sovereign Seven" DC series? The bar where Marvel characters would cameo with surprising regularity?) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 09:57 am    
By Somebody

HR-Blastaar didn't recognise the HRF4 in FF2 #7

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 10:13 am    
By Ant-Man

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Does anybody remember the BAR called Crossroads from Chris Claremont's "Sovereign Seven" DC series? The bar where Marvel characters would cameo with surprising regularity? 
<<<

Not to get off on another tangent, but that was an interesting series... 
If I recall correctly, Wolverine was in issue #2. 
Kitty Pryde, Lockheed and Illyana were in issue #3. 
Neal Conan and Manoli Wetherell were in 10-12 (maybe later issues also?)

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 10:27 am    
By jephyork
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
HR-Blastaar didn't recognise the HRF4 in FF2 #7 
<<<

And yet, didn't they use the Negative Zone to get from HR-Earth to Earth-616? Implying that it was the real Negative Zone after all? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 05:50 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The remains of an "ersatz" Immortus are seen in flashback in A 260 (or thereabouts, it's the conclusion of the Council of Kangs three-parter). Whether this is a dead divergent Immortus or just some random schlub in Immortus's costume isn't certain, so that doesn't really clarify the situation. 

-Sean

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 05:53 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And yet, didn't they use the Negative Zone to get from HR-Earth to Earth-616? Implying that it was the real Negative Zone after all? 
<<<

I got the implication that the HR Negative Zone was connected to, but not the same as, the 616 Negative Zone. IIRC, Reed uses data collected in the Zone in HR:R 2 to determine that the universe is only a few months old. 

Anyway, the HR Blastaar wouldn't be a divergent version of the actual Blastaar, he'd be a construct based on the actual Blastaar. 

-Sean

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 09:48 pm    
By Enda80

Okay, Annihilus What If appearances 


What If I#42 (?) Sue dies in pregnancy with Franklin. 
What If II#22 (see below) 
What If II#30: Sue dies in pregnancy giving birth to a mutant child who is later sent to the Negative Zone by Franklin 
What If II#35: versus Fantastic Five in a variation on FF @6. Note that this world did diverge with ASM#1 (Spidey joins FF.) 

The Annihilus in What If II#35 was slain by hitting that exploding planet. For this reason, I tend to see things as there are alterante Negative Zones with a counterpart of Annihilus. Not only that, but the Annihilus the Fantastic Five fought, they stole his cosmic control rod. I am pretty sure that sounds as if it was a different Annihilus. 


What If (second series)#22 What if the Silver Surfer Had Not Escaped Earth? 

Writer: Ron Marz 
Artist: Ron Lim 
Inker: Terry Austin 

Diverges from: Silver Surfer (second series)#1. The Champion (Elder of the Universe) never visits Earth, and thus the events that on Earth-616 lead to the freeing of the Silver Surfer never take place. 

Stuck on Earth, the Surfer joins the Fantastic Four, which becomes the 
Fantastic Five. This new team encounters and defeats Terminus, the Mole Man, Annihulus, and the FrightfulFour (Wizard, Klaw,Titania, and Hydro-Man). 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/timelines/message/712 

What If#35 "What If the Fantastic Five Had Invaded the Negative Zone?" 


Diverges from Fantastic Four Annual#6. The world seen in this issue 
appeared earlier in What If vol.1#1 and vol.1#? . On that world, 
Spider-Man joined the FF, and later the Invisible Woman left the FF 
and married Namor. He turned into her into an ampibienne. However, 
dialogue in this issue reveals that Sue Storm later decided to return 
to the surface world, and Namor obligingly complied in transforming 
her back into a normal human being. 
The Time Keepers' involvement in this issue follows the events of 
Avengers West Coast#61-62. 


The Time Keepers, overseers of the chronological continuum, confer 
with each other at the Citadel At the End of Time. They had charged 
Immortus with eliminating nexus beings-entities whose placement at 
crucial points in history can have crucial effects on the development 
of the multiverse. Immortus had tried to fufill this function by 
slaying these nexus beings and enslaving the Scarlet Witch (of 
Earth-616), whose probability altering powers made her an ideal tool 
to use in the manipulation of the energy of nexus beings. However, 
Immortus got too big for his britches, and started to pursue his own 
plans with the Scarlet Witch's powers. To deal with this, the Time 
Keepers appeared, transferred all of the Scarlet Witch's nexus power 
into Immortus, and placed him immobile as a storage unit for the nexus 
power in Limbo. 
However, it turns out that Immortus missed four nexus beings. The 
Watcher sends his astral body (soul) to observe the Time Keepers, but 
they warn him that they have detected the presence of his soul, so he 
can observe but must make no effort to intervene in their plans. The 
Time Keepers have set their sights on the world of the Fantastic Five 
(where Spider-Man joined the Fantastic Four). They must prevent the 
birth of that world's Franklin Richards. 
On that world, Sue Richards undergoes a painful pregnancy. The cosmic 
energy that gives her metahuman powers has caused complications. The 
only element that can save her exists in the Negative Zone. Her 
teammates have set out there to find it. 
Immediately upon their arrival, they get accosted by one of 
Annihilus' scavengers. (The Time Keepers had subconsciously alerted 
Annihilus to their arrival.) The Scavengers flys away with Spider-Man, 
dropping him into Annihilus' prison. Annihilus arrives to interrogate 
the prisoner, but Spider-Man manages to cover Annihilus' eyes with 
webbing. He steals the Cosmic Control Rod, Annihilus' weapon, away 
from him. 
Parker meets up with his teammates. Richards realizes that the Cosmic 
Control Rod can help save his spouse and unborn child. The Time 
Keepers, observing this from afar, decide to manipulate this world's 
Doctor Doom into stopping Richards from succeeding. They implant 
information in Doom's mind on the Control Rod and the Negative Zone. 
As Richards and his teammates make their way back to Earth, Annihilus 
catches up with them. He blasts them using a weapon called the 
Annihilator, but the Cosmic Control Rod saves them. Richards tries to 
blast Annihilus with the Rod, but someone throws a force field 
inbetween the FF and Annihilus. That someone then takes the Control 
Rod from the stunned Richards. Doctor Doom reveals himself, noting 
that through means unknown to him he just became aware of the Control 
Rod and how to get to the Negative Zone. 
Doom uses the Rod on the FF, and leaves them on a chunk of rock 
heading towards the anti-matter planet-the place in the Negative Zone 
where anti-matter becomes matter, with a resulting explosion. As Doom 
leaves, Annihilus engages him in battle. Without the Rod, Annihilus 
will lose his immortality. Their battle awakens the FF, who head 
towards the combatants. Doom, however, has an odd experience; his 
astral body gets confronted by a robed figure called the Whisperer. 
The Whisperer warns Doom that the Time Keepers had given him false 
information about the Cosmic Control Rod to get him to do their dirty 
work. Though Doom intended to use the power of the Rod to free his 
mother's soul from Mephisto, the Control Rod will not function in 
Hell. The Whisperer explains to Doom that he must surrender the Rod to 
Richards, or else the grief of the death of his wife and a stillborn 
son will send him teetering into insantiy-which, as he represents one 
of Earth's top scientists and has many exotic devices at his command, 
could in turn lead to nuclear war. 
His spirit returned to his body as if it never left, Doom throws the 
Rod to a startled Richards. The FF flee and an enraged Annihilus, 
blinded to the fact that he and Doom have fallen into the pull of the 
anti-matter planet, continues his battle with Doom. He forces a spike 
through Doom's hand, and both seem to get destroyed in the impact with 
the anti-matter planet. 
On Earth, the Rod helps in the safe birth of Franklin Richards. The 
Time Keepers swear to continue their plans to destroy the next three 
nexus beings. They have no knowledge of the astral meeting of Doom and 
the Whisperer. They also did not see that the Whisperer saved Doom at 
the last minute from the anti-matter planet. 

URL edited to manageable size -- click me!

Last edited by Enda80 on 17 Feb 2005 05:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 09:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think I liked it better when you were constantly linking to things. 

Think you could clean up the formatting on that a little bit? And maybe credit the original author? 

Or, God forbid, edit it down to just the relevant bits? 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 16 Feb 2005 09:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 16 Feb 2005 09:53 pm    
By Enda80

Oh, sidebar; time for a Don Campbell-esque observation-by which I mean an astute observation. 

The Susan Storm of Earth-Fantastic Five somehow had a child with Namor. On Earth-616, it has been revealed that Namor is sterile, since the genetic affinity between his race and surface men is too distant, as a horse and a donkey can produce a mule, but a mule is sterile.

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Posted: 17 Feb 2005 03:34 am    
By Enda80

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/timelines/message/708 
has a summary of the What If II#35 with alternate Annihilus. I wrote all of these summaries. 

For some reason, I cannot edit my own posts now that I have switched to AOL. So, if any of the editors could replace the posted synopsis with just the link to message 708 above, that would help.

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Posted: 17 Feb 2005 06:01 am    
By Somebody

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
I got the implication that the HR Negative Zone was connected to, but not the same as, the 616 Negative Zone. 
<<<

Yep, that was how I took it too - the Neg Zones are more closely linked than their "Positive Zone" counterparts. 

Ditto the UltF4 bit - the UF4 N-Zone isn't the same as the 616 Neg Zone, but they're linked.

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Posted: 17 Feb 2005 08:52 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
For some reason, I cannot edit my own posts now that I have switched to AOL. So, if any of the editors could replace the posted synopsis with just the link to message 708 above, that would help. 
<<<

Interesting. Are there any other AOL'ers here having this problem? 

Enda80, what happens when you attempt to edit? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 17 Feb 2005 08:57 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
So, if any of the editors could replace the posted synopsis with just the link to message 708 above, that would help. 
<<<

Nah, I'd rather not. It's one of those links that requires you to sign up, and I think you did the right thing originally by just reposting what you've written here. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 17 Feb 2005 09:02 am    
By jephyork
Director

Enda80, I'm saying this for the second time: the "timelines" yahoogroup is members-only -- none of your links to it work. 

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I got the implication that the HR Negative Zone was connected to, but not the same as, the 616 Negative Zone. 
<<<

Yep, that was how I took it too - the Neg Zones are more closely linked than their "Positive Zone" counterparts. 
<<<

Actually, I took Sean's meaning to be that the HR-Neg Zone, being a *construct* created by Franklin and not a real Neg Zone at all, became (or was by its nature) linked to the single, real Neg Zone that's shared by all the multiverse. 

I didn't think he was saying "there are multiple Neg Zones in the multiverse which link together". 

Quote: 
>>>
Ditto the UltF4 bit - the UF4 N-Zone isn't the same as the 616 Neg Zone, but they're linked. 
<<<

How do we know they're not the same? I haven't been following the book -- have we seen Ultimate Annihilus or something? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Feb 2005 12:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
the "timelines" yahoogroup is members-only -- none of your links to it work. 
<<<

True, but in fairness to Enda80, he only put the link up when you asked for it, in a roundabout way. 


watching: amanda grove

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Posted: 17 Feb 2005 01:34 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I see what you're saying -- the third time he posted a link to the "timelines" group, it was because I criticized his copy-pasting of so much text -- but the first and second times he did it were unprompted. 

And he's been posting timelines" links in this thread since the 14th -- which is when I first told him that they were inaccessible. 

Yes, that was how I was spending my Valentine's Day.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Mar 2005 12:25 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I hate to open up this can of worms again, but I had a question and a comment: 

Question: HAVE we yet seen Ultimate versions of any of the Negative Zone denizens? 

Comment -- my latest thought on the Mojoverse-as-singularity thing: 

Given that there absolutely ARE alternate Spirals (proven in W2 #52), it doesn't make a whole load of sense that there's only one Mojoverse or only one Mojo. However, the Mojo we see in Exiles #18-19 is fairly certain that he's seen all of these Exiles before. 

Perhaps, due to cosmic coincidence, THIS Mojo did meddle with all of the particular timelines (save the AoA) that the Exiles were from. Then, while doing his research on the Exiles group (before yanking them to the Mojoverse) -- he noticed this coincidence. 

"Holy shneezers, except for the pink chick, I've fought every last one of those meatbags!" 

Then he made the same point I did -- "what the hell are the odds of that?" -- and decided that, since the odds were slim indeed, that the only explanation was that there must be only one Mojo in the multiverse -- that he was a singularity. 

And when he asked Spiral about it, she lied to him to assuage his ego. 


I dunno -- I'm stepping into fanwank territory, but I'm looking for a way to rationalize off multiple Spirals, a Mojo that claims to be a singularity in front of Spiral, and the fact that this Mojo claims to have met at least 2/3rds of the Exiles previously. 


Still on the lookout for multiversal singularities, though ... thanks in advance to anyone who can answer my Ultimate Negative Zone question above. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Mar 2005 12:50 pm    
By Somebody

I've not been following the series itself, but the solicit for #18 is suggestive of it not being the MU Neg Zone: 

Quote: 
>>>
ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR #18 
Written by Warren Ellis 
Pencils & Cover by Adam Kubert 

"The N-Zone" 
The FF have come face-to-face with the remaining inhabitants of the N-Zone!! Will they make it through meeting Ultimate Annihilus and his fellow survivors? Witness the colossal climax to the concluding chapter of the N-Zone saga! Part 6 (of 6). 

April 27 :: 32 pages :: All Ages :: $2.25 
<<<

And I have huge doubts Ellis could try to be consistant, and I really don't think he would want to be anyway. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Comment -- my latest thought on the Mojoverse-as-singularity thing: 

Given that there absolutely ARE alternate Spirals (proven in W2 #52), it doesn't make a whole load of sense that there's only one Mojoverse or only one Mojo. However, the Mojo we see in Exiles #18-19 is fairly certain that he's seen all of these Exiles before. 

Perhaps, due to cosmic coincidence, THIS Mojo did meddle with all of the particular timelines (save the AoA) that the Exiles were from. Then, while doing his research on the Exiles group (before yanking them to the Mojoverse) -- he noticed this coincidence. 

"Holy shneezers, except for the pink chick, I've fought every last one of those meatbags!" 

Then he made the same point I did -- "what the hell are the odds of that?" -- and decided that, since the odds were slim indeed, that the only explanation was that there must be only one Mojo in the multiverse -- that he was a singularity. 

And when he asked Spiral about it, she lied to him to assuage his ego. 

I dunno -- I'm stepping into fanwank territory, but I'm looking for a way to rationalize off multiple Spirals, a Mojo that claims to be a singularity in front of Spiral, and the fact that this Mojo claims to have met at least 2/3rds of the Exiles previously. 
<<<

As I said before, I think this is purely Mojo's ego, after he played peek-a-boo with the Exiles' prior lives, seeing (at least some of) them interact with Mojo[verse]s and automatically deciding "That's me" and no-one saying "No it isn't, your blubberness"

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Posted: 15 May 2006 07:58 pm    
By Enda80

Excalibur I#22 suggests the Shadow King may represent a singularity. 

Anyone know of further alternate Earth appearances? 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/shadowkingfarouk.htm

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Posted: 16 May 2006 08:51 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Excalibur I#22 suggests the Shadow King may represent a singularity. 
<<<

No it doesn't. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 May 2006 04:39 pm    
By garbonzo

There really cannot be a singularity for Mojo or Longshot (despite their assurances to the contrary). The appearances by both characters in the Ultimate Universe vary greatly from the appearances we have seen so far (especially in the case of Mojo).

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Posted: 16 May 2006 04:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, first off, nobody's ever said that Longshot was a singularity. I pointed this out in another thread a year or so back, but at least one alternate version of him has been sighted, in What If v2 #1. 

Secondly, we don't yet have confirmation that the Ultimate Universe is canon (that is, that it exists in the same multiverse as Earth-616). 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 May 2006 07:36 pm    
By garbonzo

Actually, 

"Yes, Brian, it's the same Longshot. As I understand it, there is only one Longshot and only one Mojoverse. Of course, Longshot currently doesn't remember his relationship with Dazzler because he has been mindwiped (again!). Longshot goes through this periodically, rising up against Mojo, then getting knocked back down to square one." 
- Tony Bedard Exiles #77

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Posted: 17 May 2006 09:05 am    
By jephyork
Director

Yikes! Well, at least Tony is keeping with Winick's party-line about there being only one Mojoverse, but ... dude. The Longshot in What If v2 #1 is CLEARLY an alternate. And we have proof of alternate Spirals in Wolverine v2 #52. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 May 2006 10:46 am 
By garbonzo

I sent off an email to the editors at Exiles about this, asking for some clarification. We'll see if they respond. 

Until then, let's see what our options are: 
LMD  
Clone  
The Mojoverse Version of a Doombot  
Editorial screwups  

None of these sound good. 

garbonzo

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Posted: 17 May 2006 11:03 am    
By jephyork
Director

Our options also include ignoring Tony Bedard. Clearly, if Longshot is on Earth during a time when its timeline bifurcates (as he was when What If v2 #1 occured), he's going to bifurcate too. 

My current theory is that Spiral has timedanced a temporal field around the Mojoverse where, every time a divergent Longshot tries to return to it, he simply merges with the main Longshot. I know, it's goofy, but it works for me. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 May 2006 12:53 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I don't really see what the problem is here. Whether or not it's strictly true that there's only ONE Longshot, it's sufficient for our purposes that the one in EXILES is the same as the one in UNCANNY X-MEN.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 May 2006 07:08 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Secondly, we don't yet have confirmation that the Ultimate Universe is canon (that is, that it exists in the same multiverse as Earth-616). 
<<<

Well, the Handbooks have apparently assigned one of the stupid numbers to it (I *think* it's 1512, but I can't swear to that. It's definately more than 1000 and less than 1999 tho)

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Thread 18

Posted: 18 May 2006 02:50 pm    Post subject: Hullk story you will hate now canon
By Enda80

A Hulk story you will find outrageously lame is now part of Earth-616 due to the Matador's 70's entry. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/supremosmash.htm

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Posted: 18 May 2006 03:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Interesting -- a UK-original strip featuring Marvel characters ... in an Odhams book. 

Cool. Kinda. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 19

Posted: 15 May 2006 04:54 pm    Post subject: Sentry #8: Am I reading this right?!?
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, having just read Sentry #8, I'm a bit confused... 

At the end of Issue #8, Sentry destroys the Void. Problem is, it's now been revealed that Robert Reynolds and the Void are one and the same. So can Robert Reynolds no longer make appearances? And how is the Sentry still around if Reynolds is destroyed? 

In New Avengers 17, Robert Reynolds can't come out and play because "this isn't a good day." (and we see Robert curled up in a fetal position). Does this scene have to occur before Sentry #8? 

And am I reading it right that the BIG revelation is that anybody can be the Sentry? What type of revelation is that??!?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 May 2006 05:36 am    
By ajbrown
Director

My understanding... 

I think Robert Reynolds preferred being the Void, but the good part of himself created The Sentry to balance everything out. 

When The Sentry killed the Void he essentially killed the bad part of Robert's mind. Therefore, Robert should be able to appear again, though he will simply be The Sentry persona rather than conflicted. 

New Avengers 17 therefore has to occur before Sentry 8. 

I quite liked the revelation that the serum would have worked on anyone. It makes the most powerful Marvel hero also the most everyman character. The only plot-hole is that the US would have used the serum again and again to create a super-army. Perhaps it should be revealed that the Void destroyed all other copies of the serum to prevent that happening. 

Anyway, hopefully this means that Bendis will be more willing to use The Sentry now (and in fact he has used him a bit more recently, in both the Annual and 18).
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 16 May 2006 08:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The idea appears to be as follows:- 

* Robert Reynolds is a dissolute student who drinks the untested serum when he wasn't meant to. For once, this super-solider serum works perfectly and gives Reynolds enormous superpowers. It would apparently do the same for anyone. 

* Reynolds is mentally ill. The Sentry and the Void are simply projections of his multiple personality disorder, given physical form by his superpowers. He usually "turns into" the Sentry, while the Void lives a life of its own, but they're both ultimately him. The Void perceives itself as a force of balance which tries to counteract whatever the Sentry does. The Sentry just wants to be a hero (or Reynolds' perception of a hero), and consequently he's Superman. 

* The Void can be periodically banished (presumably during periods when Reynolds' mental illness is under control) but ultimately returns (presumably during periods of relapse). At present, the Void is banished. On his return, he will attempt to balance out all the good that the Sentry has achieved in his absence. 

* Although the serum would apparently work on anyone, it is considered TOO effective to use. The serum appears to have given Reynolds enormous reality warping powers which happen to be (relatively) under control because they're channeled into maintaining his Sentry/Void delusion. Reynolds is subconsciously altering the world around him to conform with his delusions. So long as the Sentry persona is dominant, this is acceptable, because it just means that there's a guy flying around who thinks he's the Golden Age Superman. Giving the same level of power to anybody else, even one of your own soldiers, would be an unacceptable risk. (It's possible that the serum has tapped into the supposedly enormous latent psi-powers of humanity, as per the Kree-Skrull War.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 May 2006 08:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

Okay -- so then, the flashbacks in New Avengers #7-10 showing the General and Mastermind brainwashing the Sentry -- they occured during the period where the world had forgotten about him, and brainwashed him to think that if he was ever remembered, the Void would automatically return -- right? 

And this was Bendis' workaround for the original Sentry series' contention that the Void WOULD return every time the Sentry was remembered -- right? Explaining it away as simply a piece of brainwashing to be overcome? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 May 2006 09:43 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, Reynolds certainly BELIEVES that the Void will eventually return. Whether that's necessarily true is open to debate, since the Sentry and the Void are both functions of Reynolds' mental illness, which isn't necessarily incurable.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 May 2006 03:48 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Right, as of the end of SENTRY v2 #8, he believes that the Void will *eventually* return. And I'm sure his mental illness will make that so. 

But, in both the initial Sentry mini and New Avengers #7-10, he believed that the simple act of anyone -- including himself -- remembering the Sentry's existance would cause the Void to automatically, immediately return. 

It seems to me that the point of the flashbacks with Mastermind was to remove this aspect of the Sentry/Void dynamic -- to allow the Sentry to be able to operate without the Void's *automatic* return. 

Reynolds believes that the Void will *eventually* return, because he's mentally ill. That won't change. But at least he's overcome the brainwashing that made him *automatically* bring the Void back if he remembered his Sentry powers. 

Meanwhile, Cloc is still running his worldwide memory blackout machine, and most of the world doesn't remember the Sentry's past existence -- but they're aware of his current existence. They're not being made to forget anything he does from now on, and they think he's a new hero. 

Right? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 May 2006 08:39 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
New Avengers 17 therefore has to occur before Sentry 8.  
<<<

That certainly would make sense from the Sentry's perspective, wouldn't it? Just one problem, though...it can't work within the context of the larger MU. The problem: the Hulk appears in SENTRY2 8, but he's supposed to be on Planet Hulk at this point! 

Follow this chronology, all discussed in previous posts: 
First, the Illuminati send Hulk away from earth (H3 91) 
Sometime after that, Spidey gets version 1.0 of the Stark-designed costume (ASM 529) 
Early the next AM, the Illuminati meet to discuss the Superhuman Registration Act (NA:I 1) 
Later that day, Spidey gets version 2.0 of his Stark costume (ASM 530) 
After that, Spidey appears in the new costume in A4 16 

So A4 16-17 clearly occur after H3 91, and Hulk must appear in SENTRY2 3-8 before H3 88. SENTRY2 presumably occurs before Civil War, and Hulk is still off earth when Civil War begins, so Hulk cannot appear in SENTRY2 after returning from Planet Hulk. 

So...can Robert still have debilitating psychological problems after SENTRY2 8? His problems appear to be solved (at least for the moment) in SENTRY2 8, but are they really?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 May 2006 11:27 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So...can Robert still have debilitating psychological problems after SENTRY2 8? 
<<<

I would say... yes. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 17 May 2006 09:07 am    
By jephyork
Director

Yeah, just because the Void is gone doesn't mean he isn't going schizo between Robert Reynolds and The Sentry. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 07:03 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Meanwhile, Cloc is still running his worldwide memory blackout machine, and most of the world doesn't remember the Sentry's past existence -- but they're aware of his current existence. They're not being made to forget anything he does from now on, and they think he's a new hero. 

Right? 
<<<

Wrong. The Sentry mini has... well... everyone... treat him as "back." The Hulk, Hammerhead, the Professor who he nicked the serum from, Doctor Strange, Nick Fury (presumbably another awkward LMD thing...), and a lot of no-names remember both the Sentry and Void in full (I may be forgetting others, I don't have the mini to hand). Not to mention everyone in the Negative Zone in #3, who may or may not count for the purposes. 

Plus, Jenkins' Sentry is completely different to Bendis' Sentry anyway - Jenkins' Sentry (not to be confused with Rob Renyolds...) has been an ber-confident ber-hero in both minis (apart from the CLOC thing. "The weight of the world rests on your broad shoulders Sentry - and you wouldn't have it any other way." The only exception I can think of is in the flashback where he and Reed get drunk in mini 1, after everyone's found out Sentry=Void.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 09:28 pm  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Yeah, just because the Void is gone doesn't mean he isn't going schizo between Robert Reynolds and The Sentry.  
<<<

So we seem to be steering toward putting SENTRY2 between A4 15 and 16 (and perhaps into a gap in A4 16 that's been proposed in another thread). And since Spidey appears in classic costume during the run of SENTRY2, then it's likely before The Other, assuming the Iron Spidey outfit debuts right after The Other.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2006 08:30 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
assuming the Iron Spidey outfit debuts right after The Other. 
<<<

Personally, I wouldn't assume that. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2006 08:42 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Neither is Paul O., who has cited a single classic cloth Spidey costume remaining after the conclusion of ASM 528. Time for re-noodling...
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 20

Posted: 12 May 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Madeline Pryor question
By Ocean Doot

Looking at the Madeline chronology, and I think I found a mistake, or else I am just drastically misremembering something. Right now these issues are listed in this order: 

XF 38-FB 
UX 215-FB 
UX 223-FB 
UX 215-FB 
UX 206 
C2 7-FB 
XF 1 
UX 223-FB 
XF 1 

Now I could be wrong, but I believe the first four items on that list (the FBs) all depict a piece of Maddy's encounter with the Marauders, and then the fifth item, UX 206, are her being taken into the hospital as a Jane Doe (so right after the Marauders encounter). Makes sense to me. 

But then you have X-Factor 1 listed *after* all that material? X-Factor #1 is just Maddy and Scott at home, clearly before the assassination attempt by Scalphunter et al. 

So the listing can't possibly be right, can it? Or am I missing something? 

-- Jason

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2006 11:14 am    
By frogcoin

havent read XF 1 yet but from what i have read in UX and the Infierno Saga Mady dissapeared from scott life after the marauders try to kill her and scott never found her, the X-Men find her and take her to their new base in middle of the desert.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2006 11:49 am    
By Ocean Doot

Right. Scott and Maddy are still together in XF1. The murder attempt occurs after Scott leaves her at the end of that issue.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2006 12:53 am    
By metaldragon

X-Factor 1 starts with Scott and Maddie still a couple. He gets a phone call from Angel (about Jean's return from the dead), and says he has to go. She says if he goes she will not be there when he comes back. He leaves. At the end of the issue she sees the ad for "X-Factor" on tv. 

After this, she leaves and is attacked by the Marauders as seen in The Uncanny X-Men. 

When Scott returns to Alaska in X-Factor 13 looking for her, he finds their house empty and all evidence of their life together has been carefully erased... except for a rattle the baby used to throw behind the radiator that was missed. He only discovers it after blasting the radiator in anger. The body of a red-haired woman washes ashore and Scott is led to believe it is her.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

Last edited by metaldragon on 23 Jul 2006 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 16 May 2006 09:22 am    
By Ocean Doot

So the MCP listing as it stands now is incorrect, yes?

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 May 2006 01:46 pm    
By metaldragon

Quote: 
>>>
So the MCP listing as it stands now is incorrect, yes? 
<<<

The XF 38-FB starts just after the end of XF 1. Madeline explains that she took a "big money job" to fly some cargo to San Francisco after Scott left. She was attacked by the Marauders when she arrived. She found out later that Sinister hired her and the real cargo was her son. Sinister then wiped out all traces of her life with Scott in Alaska (except for the baby rattle that fell behind the radiator that he missed and Cyclops discovered in XF 13). 

So, yes. The proper listing should be: 

XF 1 
UX 223-FB 
XF 1 
XF 38-FB 
UX 215-FB 
UX 223-FB 
UX 215-FB 
UX 206 
C2 7-FB
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 16 May 2006 09:26 pm    Post subject: DPOOL3 35-FB
By StAkAr Karnak

What occurs in DPOOL3 35-FB in Thing's chronology, set between M/TIO 5 and A 127? 

- SK

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2006 11:48 pm    
By JD

Post-WeaponX, pre-Deadpool Wade Wilson, as well as Constrictor and Taskmaster, try to kill the Thing by orders of the Wizard. They fail.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 10:42 am    
By rhod

They fail. 

No way! 
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 11:45 pm    
By Mark O'English

I suspect I've raised this here before (though I don't see it in searching your archives, so maybe it was somewhere else), but the chronology doesn't work on that. 

Two major points: 

1) In the flashback in question, Deadpool is impersonating the Hobgoblin, who doesn't come into existence until many years after that placement. 

2) Franklin Richards is up and active in that flashback, but solidly comatose in the FF at that point in time. 

I think I've pointed this out to Sean K (I think?) before, but on the other hand when we had that discussion by email I left him hanging and never offered a more appropriate alternate placement other than "somewhere in the range of..." If anyone out there wants to take this on and place it properly for the eight or ten characters involved, it'd be a good thing...

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2006 02:21 am    
By SeanCurtin

Personally, I'm inclined the place the flashback around the time of ASM 244-245. Deadpool's role as the Hobgoblin in DPOOL3 35-FB is very similar to the role that Lefty Donovan played as the Hogoblin in those two issues. The Hobgoblin is presumed dead after ASM 245 and, after his return a few issues later, he goes from hiring goons to brainwashing people in increasingly Byzantine schemes; it's unlikely that Deadpool would be hired as a Hobgoblin double after that point. So, this flashback should probably take place shortly before ASM 244. If the Frightful Four flashback occurs in the same time period, then the Thing's appearance would apparently be around the time of FF 259-262. IIRC, there wouldn't be any problem with Franklin appearing here, either. Moving this appearance to this general time frame has the added benefit of occurring after the first actual appearances of Constrictor and Taskmaster. 

-Sean

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Posted: 19 May 2006 07:22 pm    
By StAkAr Karnak

I was only wondering if the story followed up on anything that happened in M/TIO 5, where Thing went to 3014 and met the Guardians of the Galaxy. Never read much Deadpool and it seemed deliberate that so recent a book was placed right after such an old book. 

Thx, 
- SK

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 25 May 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: Marvel Age notes
By Enda80

I found a couple of Marvel Age that could count as canon. 

Millie and Tony Stark in Marvel Age#92 
Finally caught this. Millie sees Tony Stark changing out of his armor and mistakes him for Mr. Hanover. ______________________________ 

Marvel Age#87, Johnny Blaze pre-demon possession docsavage80 
Send IM 
Send Email 

In Waukegan, Illinois, Johnny Blaze on his bike 
delivered a speech written by his dad to Roxanne. Then 
troublemakers from Jack Benny High showed up. One of 
them had the name Don, one Dennis. They took the 
paper. Blaze grabbed a discarded violin and battered 
them. 

Marvel Age#109: Cap and Fury save Santa from Hitler.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2006 12:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

And all four annuals have new story material as well. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 19 Jan 2006 07:04 pm    Post subject: Nick Fury, post-HoM [Astonishing X-Men SPOILER]
By Somebody

Maria Hill is apparently definitively still in charge of SHIELD post-HoM, as Joss Whedon had to rewrite stuff to replace Fury with her: 

Quote: 
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6461 
Could you expand a bit on how the events in "House of M" or "Decimation" affected your plans, or are you isolated enough that it didn't really matter? 

As I said, I kind of deliberately avoided it. I was a little bit thrown off my game when I read it. I was like, "OK, everything's different now!" 

Basically the biggest thing is that I had to replace was Nick Fury with Maria Hill because Nick Fury's gone underground. He was going to be, not a huge part, but a part of the thing. There's a scene between Abigail Brand-- who's very much a player particularly in the second arc-- and Maria Hill that would have been Nick. 

*watches Paul B keel over *

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2006 09:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'd like to take a look at a list of post-Secret War Fury appearances. I'm wondering how many of them definitively show him to be head of SHIELD, and in how many he just *claims* to be head of SHIELD. 

I'm thinking we might be able to rationalize some off by pretending that Fury is running some crime-bust on his own, and just giving the people he involves the impression that he's in charge of SHIELD. "New X-Men: Hellions", for example -- I don't think we ever see SHIELD agents. For all everyone involved knows, Fury himself hired Diamondback and Paladin, and is only throwing around SHIELD's name to get their cooperation. 

It's an idea ... and it certainly beats straining and twisting chronologies to the breaking point to force a bunch of comics back before SECWAR and A4 #1. The more Fury appearances we can rationalize off, the less straining and twisting we have to do... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 05:28 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'd rather strain the chronologies - or simply acknowledge that there's a whole bunch of Fury appearances which are irreconcilable continuity errors - than drastically rewrite the stories so that it isn't really SHIELD at all. 

It's a massive continuity fuck-up, it cannot be explained. Leave it there.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Jan 2006 11:27 am    
By jephyork
Director

I think we're on the same page, Paul. You're saying "acknowledge the screw-up and leave the issues where they fall." I'm saying, "rationalize the appearances off and leave them where they fall." 

Either way, we're both trying to avoid a massive twisting of chronologies to try to shove them all pre-A4 #1. I'm offering an out to the people -- and there are quite a lot of them here -- who can't simply leave an error be, but need SOME solution. 

"Rewriting the stories so it isn't SHIELD at all" doesn't alter any MCP listings, since "SHIELD" as an entity doesn't have one. We're both heading towards the same goal -- leaving the post-A4 #1 issues post-A4 #1 -- we just have slightly different mindests about how to get there. 

So ... anyone got a full list of post-A4 Fury appearances? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Jan 2006 12:14 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

But if you say it's not SHIELD, you're changing the plot drastically. I'm simply working on the assumption that the appearance of Fury is an error, and some other unspecified SHIELD schlub has to sub for him for continuity purposes. 

Alternative theory: Cover-up. It's a Fury LMD. They're not willing to publicly admit he's gone. Have we seen anyone other than the Avengers and other SHIELD characters reference Fury's disappearance? Do even junior SHIELD staff know he's gone? 

(The Avengers have denied to other superheroes that there's a problem with SHIELD, so it's possible they might be prepared to play along with the cover-up in the short term.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Jan 2006 12:56 pm    
By JD

jephyork wrote: 
So ... anyone got a full list of post-A4 Fury appearances? 


From the "Secret War 5" thread, a few months ago (http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1892&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15) : 
New X-Men: Hellions #4 
Marvel Team-Up v3 #13 
Hercules #4-5 
Fantastic Four: Foes #3, 6 
Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects #4 

CA5 #1-14 seems to be set before A4, even if some evidence is conflicting.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 03:25 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
But if you say it's not SHIELD, you're changing the plot drastically. 
<<<

Depends which plot, doesn't it? That's why I asked -- which appearances of Fury show him acting more or less on his own, and which appearances have him standing on the Helicarrier ordering battalions of troops around? 

I'm not suggesting that we we claim that ALL of his appearances should be viewed this way. I just want to localize the ones where Fury appears, but SHIELD does not. Like "Hellions", for example. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Alternative theory: Cover-up. It's a Fury LMD. They're not willing to publicly admit he's gone. 
<<<

I'd thought of that one too, but my problem with that rationale is that it DOES affect the MCP listings. In effect, we're saying that the Nick Fury appearing in a given book isn't actually Nick Fury -- with no concrete evidence from Marvel to support that. 

Maybe an upcoming Handbook will address the Fury problem -- recent statements by Joss Whedon and Fabian Nicieza indicate that Marvel has finally realized that the problem exists. I'm hoping they will take the "it's an LMD" tack, but I don't want to delete entries from Fury's MCP listing until they do. 

What I'm trying to do is make the list of TRULY problematic Nick Fury appearances that much smaller. Why not humor me -- look into it even as an intellectual exercise -- and let's see where it leads us? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Jan 2006 03:42 pm    
By JD

Just for the ones I have on hand : 

In Hellions #4, Fury is able de make SHIELD drop the charges against the Hellions. 
In M/TU3 #13, Fury walks on the Helicarrier. There are no SHIELD agents in sight, but I can't see him walking like he owns the place without having returned to SHIELD in some way. Especially since he greets half a dozen superheroes on the deck. 

(By the way, in this arc of M/TU3, She-Hulk can take her super-form at will. Does that work with the timeframes for between the two SH series ?)

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Posted: 20 Jan 2006 03:47 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'd thought of that one too, but my problem with that rationale is that it DOES affect the MCP listings. In effect, we're saying that the Nick Fury appearing in a given book isn't actually Nick Fury -- with no concrete evidence from Marvel to support that. 
<<<


Well, the concrete evidence is that it's manifestly impossible in terms of the stories themselves. And your alternative would simply mean that the SHIELD appearing in a given book isn't actually SHIELD. While that wouldn't affect MCP listings, that's solely because the MCP doesn't list organisations, which strikes me as a distinction without a difference for this purpose.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Jan 2006 05:14 pm    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
(By the way, in this arc of M/TU3, She-Hulk can take her super-form at will. Does that work with the timeframes for between the two SH series ?) 
<<<

Sort of. Provided it fits between She-Hulk v2 #4 (FB) and SHv2 #1, and we write off the lack of gamma changer as an art error. 

And, supposedly, we'll get the timeline in the Illumanati special, according to Joe Q (or this week, if Newsarama remember to ask...): 


Quote: 
>>>
http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays32.html 

NRAMA: From "freedom fry" - "Last week you mentioned that you had a timeline that fit all of the major Marvel Universe events in order, but that it was not handy. Do you have that now? 

"How does Nick Fury's timeline fit into all this? In Wolverine he is in the hospital, in Secret War/New Avengers he is in hiding, and in Captain America he is up and running the show. Is there an answer to all of this, or is it just a case of suspension of disbelief?" 

Joe, in a larger sense, we got a number of question from readers are interested in how Secret War, Decimation, House of M, and The Other all fit together, along with titles like New Avengers and Astonishing X-Men, as well as other continuity issues like the many status quos of Nick Fury. 

Can you address? Is there an editorial timeline you can share with readers? 

JQ: Dang, Freedom, thanks for reminding me. First lets clear this up, it was the current problems with the Nick Fury timeline that we were discussing, not the entire Marvel Universe. Ill leave that for greater, more patient minds than mine. 

But that said, I just received these readers questions and Im not in the office to gather up the info. Next week is tough too since many of us will be out of the offices for a series of creative summits. Please remind me in two weeks to get this info. Thanks for your patience 

By the way, much of this will also be explained in Bendis Illuminati special.  
<<<

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Posted: 20 Jan 2006 06:09 pm    
By garbonzo

So we are supposed to ave Bendis clear up issues involving timelines???  

This should be good.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 06:21 pm    
By JD

Somebody wrote: 
(or this week, if Newsarama remember to ask...): 


They remembered, but, er... : 

Quote: 
>>>
JQ: Okay, heres the latest and greatest. I was about to go over the timeline and Tom Brevoort came in and stopped me for a moment. He reminded me of something I had forgotten. It seems that Bendis gives some of this Fury timeline info in his Special. So rather than spoil certain elements of Brians book, Id like to ask the fans to be a bit more patient. After that issue hits the stands then well talk more about the timeline. 

Sorry, folks, my bad.  
<<<

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 08:10 pm    
By Col_Fury

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
And, supposedly, we'll get the timeline in the Illumanati special, according to Joe Q  
<<<

But the Illuminati Special doesn't come out until March 29, which is too close to April Fool's Day for me... 

In the mean time, off the top of my head: 

New X-Men: Hellions 4 
-Fury implies he's with SHIELD, but he could be pulling a 'Mother Russia' and acting on his own here. But those charges against the Hellions... Fury does still have loyalists within SHIELD. He could have called Dum Dum, Gabe, Val, or any number of agents to handle that. 
Marvel Team-Up vol3 13 
-Fury's on the Helicarrier. Can this be pushed back post-whenever? When the hell is Fury going to be reinstated, anyway?(I'm now assuming Illumanati) 
Hercules 4, 5 
-could this be pushed past whenever Fury is reinstated? The series is already making time jumps... If not, I can't see how this is an LMD. SHIELD agents are reporting to him, not Maria Hill. I really don't see why some agents would know about Hill, and others wouldn't. 
Fantastic Four: Foes 
-the 'Most Wanted' file says this is post-breakout, but with all the breakouts Marvel prisons suffer, could this be pre-Secret War? I don't think it screws up any other FF appearances. 
Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects 
-Fury is referred to as head of SHIELD by Tony Stark. Force of habit? 
Captain America vol5 1-14 
-even though the 'Most Wanted' file says this is post-breakout, Ed B. says he intended it to be pre-breakout. I think it's safest to keep this before Secret War, HoM tie-ins be damned. 
Iron Man: the Inevitable 
-again, Fury is referred to as head of SHIELD by Tony Stark. However, wouldn't the SHIELD agent he's talking to find that odd? But then again, she could have thought he was drunk... 
Cable & Deadpool 24 
-this takes place far enough after HoM, I really don't think this will present any problems. 

So they had Joss Whedon re-write Astonishing, but didn't have Daniel way re-write Hulk? Or is Hulk just occuring that far in the future?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 20 Jan 2006 08:51 pm    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Team-Up vol3 13 
-Fury's on the Helicarrier. Can this be pushed back post-whenever? 
<<<

No. Sunfire is still active in #9. However long #7-13 lasts, I doubt he went to do anything else during Titannus's rampage in Tokyo. 
Sunfire is then seen in ROGUE v3 #7-12 (where he's maimed and nearly killed), which is before X-MEN v2 #171, which is definitely pre-HoM... 

(Oh, and the New Avengers are mentionned positively in that arc, so it cannot be pre-Secret War). 

It looks like Apocalypse will restore Sunfire anew in X-MEN v2 #182-186, but it seems like he we look completely different (like in AoA, actually). Would we put M/TU3 7-13 after THAT ? 
I doubt it, since ROGUE v3 #7-12 destroyed Sunfire's reputation in Japan, and he's seen working with the Japanese government in M/TU3 #7-13 in direct continuation of #1-6 as if nothing had happened.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 08:54 pm    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
(or this week, if Newsarama remember to ask...): 
<<<

They remembered, but, er... : 

Quote: 
>>>
JQ: Okay, heres the latest and greatest. I was about to go over the timeline and Tom Brevoort came in and stopped me for a moment. He reminded me of something I had forgotten. It seems that Bendis gives some of this Fury timeline info in his Special. So rather than spoil certain elements of Brians book, Id like to ask the fans to be a bit more patient. After that issue hits the stands then well talk more about the timeline. 

Sorry, folks, my bad.  
<<<

<<< 

This despite the fact that he plugged the Special at the time they told him to ask this week. [A5]Ai-Ai-Ai-Ai-Ai...[/A5]

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2006 09:04 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So they had Joss Whedon re-write Astonishing, but didn't have Daniel way re-write Hulk? Or is Hulk just occuring that far in the future? 
<<<

Going by interviews I've read with Daniel Way, I'm led to believe that H3 #88-91 occurs far enough in the future that it's after Fury is reinstated. So we shouldn't have to worry about his appearances in Hulk...for now... 


Quote: 
>>>
JQ: Okay, heres the latest and greatest. I was about to go over the timeline and Tom Brevoort came in and stopped me for a moment. He reminded me of something I had forgotten. It seems that Bendis gives some of this Fury timeline info in his Special. So rather than spoil certain elements of Brians book, Id like to ask the fans to be a bit more patient. After that issue hits the stands then well talk more about the timeline. 

Sorry, folks, my bad. 
<<<

Man, talk about dodging a bullet...I'm not content to wait for Bendis to explain it all to me in April. Let's figure this out now, and if what comes out in April contradicts it, then we go back to the drawing board. 


Quote: 
>>>
Well, the concrete evidence is that it's manifestly impossible in terms of the stories themselves. 
<<<

I have to agree with Paul O. on this one. If it's simply impossible for it to be Nick Fury...then it's NOT Nick Fury. The ol' LMD theory works best for me. 

Quote: 
>>>
I'd thought of that one too, but my problem with that rationale is that it DOES affect the MCP listings. In effect, we're saying that the Nick Fury appearing in a given book isn't actually Nick Fury -- with no concrete evidence from Marvel to support that.  
<<<

Isn't the concret evidence that Marvel has contradicted itself? Thus, we reserve the right to write it off as not being Nick Fury? I think we're starting to get into a discussion about what we CAN and CANNOT do at the MCP again...  

Seriously, I look upon it as us making a decision, one which will stick until proven wrong by the handbooks, (or by however Marvel wants to go about explaining this mess).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Jan 2006 04:07 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Going by interviews I've read with Daniel Way, I'm led to believe that H3 #88-91 occurs far enough in the future that it's after Fury is reinstated. So we shouldn't have to worry about his appearances in Hulk...for now... 
<<<

That's true - Way has mentioned that Fury is missing for the purposes of his WOLVERINE story, and he used Dum Dum Dugan in the "SHIELD representative" role there. So he clearly IS aware of the Fury problem, and must have used him consciously in HULK.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Jan 2006 11:38 am    
By Andy Holcombe

JD wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects #4 
<<<

Why does this one have to beset post-Secret War? In any event, it's a freaking video game adaptation.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 11:40 am    
By Andy Holcombe

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Iron Man: the Inevitable 
-again, Fury is referred to as head of SHIELD by Tony Stark. However, wouldn't the SHIELD agent he's talking to find that odd? But then again, she could have thought he was drunk... 
<<<


What placement clues do we have here other than Tony is being Iron Man in secret again?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 12:35 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

It occurs after IM4 #1-6, (the Warren Ellis arc that's taking forever). Interviews with the writer, (Joe Casey) have indicated as such. 

So where do we have IM4 #1-6? It's after Disassembled, but is it before New Avengers?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 21 Jan 2006 05:57 pm    
By Somebody

Plus IM:I #2 has him using TechVision&trade; out of the IM suit. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
So where do we have IM4 #1-6? It's after Disassembled, but is it before New Avengers? 
<<<

Whatever the original intention, I don't think it can be now. 

Besides, given that IM4 #5 has an armour change, that should give a good placement cue Re: NAv, etc.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 06:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Sometimes, Paul, you really just don't listen to people. 

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
your alternative would simply mean that the SHIELD appearing in a given book isn't actually SHIELD. 
<<<

NO. I've said, twice now, that I wanted a list of post-A4 Nick Fury appearances, so I could look through and find that ones where SHIELD DOESN'T APPEAR. 


From my first post: 
Quote: 
>>>
I'm wondering how many of them definitively show him to be head of SHIELD, and in how many he just *claims* to be head of SHIELD. 

I'm thinking we might be able to rationalize some off by pretending that Fury is running some crime-bust on his own, and just giving the people he involves the impression that he's in charge of SHIELD. "New X-Men: Hellions", for example -- I don't think we ever see SHIELD agents. 
<<<

From my third post: 
Quote: 
>>>
which appearances of Fury show him acting more or less on his own, and which appearances have him standing on the Helicarrier ordering battalions of troops around? 

I'm not suggesting that we we claim that ALL of his appearances should be viewed this way. I just want to localize the ones where Fury appears, but SHIELD does not. 
<<<

Are we on the same page now, Paul? 

If we JUST see Nick Fury in a given issue -- if he DOESN'T have SHIELD troops backing him up -- then maybe we can assume that Nick's acting ON HIS OWN, IN THAT ISSUE -- and we DON'T have to worry about the fact that he's not supposed to be head of SHIELD at that time. 

Okay? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2006 11:42 pm    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Man, talk about dodging a bullet... 
<<<

My thoughts exactly. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I'm not content to wait for Bendis to explain it all to me in April. Let's figure this out now, and if what comes out in April contradicts it, then we go back to the drawing board. 
<<<

My thought exactly. 


In regards to Iron Man: Inevitable, 
Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
What placement clues do we have here other than Tony is being Iron Man in secret again? 
<<<

There's a reference to it ocurring on August 25, and Paul B. tentatively had it between A4 15 & HoM on his calendar. However, that no longer looks like it can work. Depending on when Civil War happens, and if Iron Man's new status quo is seen there, perhaps it can happen in August of the following year? If not, that August reference will have to be topical. In any case, it has to occur after Ellis' run on the main Iron Man book. 


In regards to Marvel Nemesis, 
Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
Why does this one have to beset post-Secret War? 
<<<

Because Spider-Man's in it as an Avenger, as is Wolverine. 


In regards to Marvel Team-Up 13, 
JD wrote: 
>>>
Sunfire is still active in #9 
<<<

Crap. My selective memory forgot about the Sunfire mess. I think it was Paul O. that suggested putting a huge gap in time in the middle of that issue, to accomodate Fury. Perhaps that's the best option? 

Paul O. & Kevin W., good comparisons between Way's Wolverine & Hulk runs. That makes more sense now. Thanks! 

And an attempt to shorten the problem list: 

New X-Men: Hellions 4 
-Fury on his own, rationalized. 
Marvel Team-Up vol3 13 
-put a huge gap in the book? Can this still work? problem. 
Hercules 4, 5 
-put more of a gap in the book so that the portion showing Fury on the Helicarrier can occur? Can this work? problem. 
Fantastic Four: Foes 
-pre-Secret War? 
Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects 
-can this be moved further into the future? problem. 
Captain America vol5 1-14 
-pre-Secret War? 
Iron Man: the Inevitable 
-far off in the future 
Cable & Deadpool 24 
-far enough in the future 

So that leaves us with Marvel Team-Up, Hercules, and Marvel Nemesis. Fury is on the Helicarrier in two of them, and there's just a reference to Fury being in charge of SHIELD in Marvel Nemesis. 

I'm not sure if moving that portion of Marvel Team-Up forward presents any problems with the rest of the issues following it. It looks like a big reset button will be pressed at the end of the arc, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see. There's also the potential problem of Spider-Man's new costume. 

Marvel Nemesis should be able to be moved further into the future without too many problems, unless Matt Murdock is thrown in a federal prison in his main book, and however that story ends up in relation to Civil War. There's also the potential problem of Spider-Man's new costume. 

Hercules I just don't know about. I haven't had a chance to dig them out and re-read them. 

And of course, all of this will depend on when Fury is re-instated. Illuminati? Civil War? Who knows?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 01:50 am    
By John Simons

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that Hercules takes place over the course of several months. Although issue 1 suggests that it opens shortly after the Avengers disband, the New Avengers have shown up by the end of the mini. Although we are shown a sort of Cliff's Notes version of the new trials that Herc goes through, each of those could take quite a bit of time to set up and execute. Also one would assume that his reality show only airs once a week, so if each trial= one episode, that's nearly three months transpiring right there. 

The one problem I see is that Avengers Tower is depicted without those weird spires that appeared when it was "outted" as Sentry's watchtower. Which might imply that it was supposed to take place before Sentry joined the team, in which case Fury snoozing on the Helicarrier and chatting with Dum-Dum makes no sense.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 01:51 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'm a little leery of "moving books into the future" until we know what Nick Fury's status quo will actually turn out to BE, and WHEN. 

Since it looks like my original idea has flopped -- almost all of Nick's post-A4 #1 appearances have him definitively heading up SHIELD -- I'm starting to lean towards Paul O's line of thinking: maybe it's an LMD. 

I know, I know, we shouldn't just unilaterally decide that it's an LMD without some evidence from Marvel -- but it looks like there IS a "fix" on the way, in the New Avengers Illuminati Special. And making the problematic Nick Fury appearances into LMDs is probably the simplest solution -- so I've got my fingers crossed that Bendis uses it. (We know he knows about LMDs -- he used one in SECWAR #5 -- and didn't he have Wolvie say that they make LMDs really well these days?) 

It looks like we may have to "wait and see" once again -- three more months. 

This might sound nutty, but what I suggest now is that we just ASSUME that the post-A4 #1 Fury appearances are LMDs -- and rather than pushing books crazily into the future or into the past, just leave them where they would naturally fall, IF the Fury appearing was an LMD. 

Once the Illuminati Special comes out -- THEN we can overhaul our chronologies, based on the specific details of the "fix" Bendis provides us. Hopefully, either we'll be right with our LMD assumption, or his fix will point us towards an alternate, and correct, path. 

It just strikes me as silly that we grunt and strain to push comics places they don't want to go, just to deal with all these Fury appearances -- only to have the promised "fix" point us in a completely different direction. If it turns out that we're going to have to redo our chronologies in April, it's probably best to only overhaul things ONCE. 

Until then, I think it's best -- less work on our parts -- if we just ignore Fury's appearances, hope they're explained one way or another in April, and until then, just work with the OTHER placement clues the issues in question give us. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 07:07 am    
By JD

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
In regards to Marvel Team-Up 13, 
JD wrote: 
>>>
Sunfire is still active in #9 
<<<

Crap. My selective memory forgot about the Sunfire mess. I think it was Paul O. that suggested putting a huge gap in time in the middle of that issue, to accomodate Fury. Perhaps that's the best option? 
<<<

In #13 ? It's possible, but it wouldn't make much sense to put more than a few days (which is already a stretch). 

What was the status of Quasar before that ? He has to come back from wherever he was to take the alien princess home. But then, he was summoned by Strange, who can teleport people (and did so a lot in this arc). 
The penultimate scene really reads as the direct aftermath of the big fight from the preceding issues. And I doubt the heroes would wait months to interrogate the alternate Tony Stark about Titannus. 
[Actually, the last scene of the issue states "it will take less than a month to rebuild [Tokyo]." It really sounds like they just started rebuilding...] 

By the way, this Fury appearance shoots to hell the LMD theory. Spider-Man and Wolverine are among the heroes greeted by Fury on the Helicarrier, and they obviously know about the Secret War thing. And they cannot be in on a LMD impostor either, because they continue acting as if he was the real deal even after all the other heroes leave them alone with Fury. 

Wow, this issue is really an atrocious continuity mess.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 11:19 am    
By Somebody

Quasar can teleport interstellar distances, provided he's not within a planetary atmosphere, and he can get into space under his own power.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 05:09 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
By the way, this Fury appearance shoots to hell the LMD theory. Spider-Man and Wolverine are among the heroes greeted by Fury on the Helicarrier, and they obviously know about the Secret War thing. And they cannot be in on a LMD impostor either, because they continue acting as if he was the real deal even after all the other heroes leave them alone with Fury.  
<<<

I've checked M/TU3 13 and for the life of me can't find any dialogue that suggests that: a) Spidey and Wolvie "obviously know about Secret War"; or b) that they think Fury is "the real deal." Please elaborate, JD. 


Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
It occurs after IM4 #1-6, (the Warren Ellis arc that's taking forever). Interviews with the writer, (Joe Casey) have indicated as such.  
<<<

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Plus IM:I #2 has him using TechVision&trade; out of the IM suit. 
<<<


That's interesting, given dates the writers have placed in IM4 and IM:I. IM4 1 occurs on "November 7" and "November 9." IM4 2-4 also occur on November 9, with IM4 5 occurring on November 10. 

IM:I 1 occurs on "8/25" and "8/27." IM:I 2 occurs from "9/22" through "9/29." You'd think from these clues that IM:I would precede IM4 1-6.  

Kevin, I missed that reference to Tony's Extremis powers showing up in IM:I 2. Can you elaborate? 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
So where do we have IM4 #1-6? It's after Disassembled, but is it before New Avengers? 
<<<

Gotta be after A4 6. In IM4 3, Tony uses the "Avengers liaison channel" --you wouldn't think such a thing would exist while the team was disbanded. In IM4 4, Maya suggests calling the Avengers, and Tony tells her to do so if he dies - this means that this story must occur after the formation of the New Avengers becomes public knowledge. 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Fantastic Four: Foes 
-the 'Most Wanted' file says this is post-breakout, but with all the breakouts Marvel prisons suffer, could this be pre-Secret War? I don't think it screws up any other FF appearances.  
<<<

But I don't see any reason (yet) to contradict the Most Wanted file. The reference to the "massive jailbreak" at the Raft in FOES 1 most liklely refers to A4 1-3. We can rationalize it off as another jailbreak (although "massive" might be stretching it), but for the sake of Fury, I don't see that it's worth the effort at this point. I'm inclined to treat FOES as post-A4 6. An LMD explanation would allow us to do that and keep the Most Wanted reference valid. 

Also, note that in FOES 3 Fury gives Reed crap about his takeover of Latveria. Reed doesn't counter this by sticking the Secret War in Nick's face. This could be explained if FOES occurred before SECWAR, but it could also be explained if Reed knew that he was dealing with a Fury LMD and not the genuine article. 


I don't think anyone has mentioned these recent Fury appearances: 

In FF 427, Fury approaches Reed with an opportunity to accelerate the FFs financial recovery and invites him to meet with the Feds at a classified air force base. I have this occurring well beyond HOM, so it's not necessarily a problem; I suppose it could be an LMD or the real deal. 

Fury appears in the limited series, NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS. I'm not sure about placement clues in that series. 


And I have a foggy recollection that I've read a recent reference to Fury as being a "field commander" instead of head of SHIELD. I wish I could remember where that was. Are we looking at a situation in which Maria Hill has taken over and SHIELD is making it look like Fury has been demoted rather than being a fugitive at large by using a Fury LMD to be a commander with some decision-making authority, but clearly working for Hill and Dugan? 

I am very hesitant to spend a lot of time moving things around despite other clues just to accommodate Fury appearances that are promised to be explained away. If we have to alter things this spring, so be it. But I'd rather not do it twice. And I really hate to hold up the calendar update even longer. 

I'm still on the fence about CA5. I don't think Cap would be so open with a Fury LMD and I don't think he'd be as friendly with the genuine Fury if this series were to occur after the point at which his memory of Fury's Secret War returns. But then we have the Crossbones chronology in Most Wanted and the whole HOM crossover in the middle of the Winter Soldier arc. I may just leave this series where I have it for now -- post-A4 15.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2006 05:35 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I've checked M/TU3 13 and for the life of me can't find any dialogue that suggests that: a) Spidey and Wolvie "obviously know about Secret War"; or b) that they think Fury is "the real deal." Please elaborate, JD. 
<<<

a) M/TU3 13 is post-Secret War, because the New Avengers are around. Spider-Man and Wolverine were key players of the Secret War and know about Fury going underground. Ergo, they would know if SHIELD had put out a fake Fury. 
b) I don't see them acting them the way they do, cracking jokes and all, with a Fury they know to be a fake. It's not as if they had to play along, since they're alone with him.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 06:27 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
I don't see them acting them the way they do, cracking jokes and all, with a Fury they know to be a fake. It's not as if they had to play along, since they're alone with him. 
<<<

Well, Spidey and Logan are bickering between themselves in Fury's presence, but I wouldn't say they're joking with Fury. And if they were, an LMD would be more believable than the real Fury, with whom they're supposed to be pissed about Secret War. 


JD wrote: 
>>>
M/TU3 13 is post-Secret War, because the New Avengers are around. 
<<<

Ah, I misunderstood. I figured by "obviously" you meant that the Secret War was referenced directly in M/TU3 13.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jan 2006 09:27 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Kevin, I missed that reference to Tony's Extremis powers showing up in IM:I 2. Can you elaborate? 
<<<
 
To clarify: It was "Somebody" who posted that bit about "IM: I #2 has him using Techvision&trade", not myself. Check the posts above. 

Having said that, I just finished reading IM:I #2 tonight, and there is a wierd scene where Iron Man is wearing his chest plate and is hooked up to all kinds of wires. Is that what was meant in reference to him using his Extremis powers? 

I'm still not for certain just what all of his new Extremis powers entail...to me, so far, it appears IM:I is trying to avoid explicitely showing his Extremis powers.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 12:49 am    
By Somebody

Page starting "Is there any way to possibly monitor..." He sees the security map directly. Kinda subtle, but it's there.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jan 2006 06:26 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
To clarify: It was "Somebody" who posted that bit about "IM: I #2 has him using Techvision&trade", not myself. Check the posts above. 
<<<

Oops. Sorry, Kev. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Page starting "Is there any way to possibly monitor..." He sees the security map directly. Kinda subtle, but it's there. 
<<<

Hmm...that is subtle. I thought Stark was looking at a security monitor in the room.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Jan 2006 03:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, folks. According to this week's "New Avengers" #15, the latest A4 arc -- #11-15 -- occured POST-House of M. Carol Danvers refers extensively to the HoM life she remembers. 

So, yup, Nick Fury was definitively NOT put back in charge of SHIELD before HoM hit. He's not reinstated in this issue either -- sorry, Paul. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 06:28 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Not only that, but Pulse 13 has to occur after A4 15, and Pulse 13 occurs contemporaneously with the current DD2 arc, so "the Murdock Papers" is also post-HOM. 

Sheesh...now I have to reconfigure the calendar...again... 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 11:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Pulse 13 occurs contemporaneously with the current DD2 arc 
<<<

It does? Why? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 05:15 pm    
By Col_Fury

Because of that pesky line from J Jonah Jameson about how the Feds have Murdock, and that he's going down... I'm paraphrasing of course. 

I have a gap in time between issues 80 & 81 of Daredevil, for the hearing to be schedualed, for the Pulse arc to occur, and for New Avengers to catch up with Daredevil. Also, that would put HoM between issues 80 & 81 of Daredevil. 

In other words: 

DD2 76-80-Feds 'get' Murdock 
HoM 
A4 11-15-Matt tells Steve 'the Feds got me' 
Pulse 11-13-JJJ says 'the Feds have Murdock' 
DD2 81-Murdock goes down
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 09:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Not only that, but even more telling is the Daily Bugle headline shown in PULSE 13 -- "Spider-Man Menace: How Much Does the Web-Crawler Know About the Murdock Papers?" with pictures of Murdock and Kingpin published on it.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 12:06 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Wait, Col_Fury, you're saying that Matt was free to walk around and talk to Cap between his arrest in DD2 #80 and his arraignment hearing in #81? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they usually keep you in jail until your arraignment? Especially for someone who posed a "huge flight risk", as the prosecution claimed Matt did in #81? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 10:48 pm    
By Col_Fury

Yeah, that doesn't quite work, does it? 

In DD2 76, Matt is unaware of the deal the Feds made with the Kingpin. 

In DD2 77, Matt is busy with Milla then Elektra appears. 

In DD2 78, Matt is busy with Elektra, finds out about the Kingpin deal, then Bullseye shows up. 

In DD2 79, Matt fights Bullseye, and is shot. 

In DD2 80, Matt gets patched up, and then is arrested. 

In DD2 81, Matt's on trial. 

DD2 76-80 all happen within one day, and there's no opportunity for Matt to meet up with Steve during this time. So what's Matt talking about in A4 11? 

Matt Murdock said: 
>>>
The United States government is actively pursuing me with everything they have. I have six Federal task forces assigned to bring me down. They want to throw me in jail! 
<<<

Luckily, he didn't say anything about the Kingpin. I guess this will have to precede DD2 76, and chalk it up to Matt being paranoid, with good reason. 

So, I think this might work better: 

DD2 75 
HoM 
A4 11-15-Steve and Matt chat 
DD2 76-80-Feds 'get' Murdock 
Pulse 11-13-JJJ says 'the Feds have Murdock, he's going down', newspaper with pictures of Kingpin and Murdock 
DD2 81-Murdock goes down
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 11:13 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I just finished DD2 81, (and thus, have now wrapped up all of the Bendis stories for the week). 

Quote: 
>>>
DD2 75 
HoM 
A4 11-15-Steve and Matt chat 
DD2 76-80-Feds 'get' Murdock 
Pulse 11-13-JJJ says 'the Feds have Murdock, he's going down', newspaper with pictures of Kingpin and Murdock 
DD2 81-Murdock goes down 
<<<

But who is that man in the Daredevil costume in Pulse 13? I doubt they'd let Matt out of jail just to go get D-Man out of the sewers...am I missing something here, or was that scene with Daredevil in Pulse 13 never really explained? 

The end of the "Murdocks Papers" establishes two new plot developments for Matt: 

1. Matt Murdock can't make any more appearances for some time to come, as he's locked up in jail by the end of DD2 80, (and will be in jail for some time to come...at least for the next story arc). 

2. I think the speculation has ended: everybody knows Matt is Daredevil by this point. The FBI caught him red handed. True, the trial hasn't happened yet, and he's innocent until proven guilty, but it's pretty well confirmed that Matt is Daredevil. So no more media speculation, (as shown in some other comics). 

Moving on, when I read the scene where they were starting to let the Kingpin out of jail, I was like, "Well, this will give us a chance to place Spectacular Spiderman #21, in which Kingpin sits down for a game of poker with the superheroes"...but then the FBI turns around and rearrests Kingpin a few panels later. Now there really isn't a place for Spec. Spiderman #21 to occur, (without rupturing the space/time continuum).  

Question: Who's the other bald guy in prison on pg. 21? I see Kingpin, Owl, Hammerhead, and another bald guy in prison. Is it Bullseye? 

I'll be working on my analysis for DD2 76-81 all this weekend. I should have it up in the next few days...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 11:29 pm    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Who's the other bald guy in prison on pg. 21? 
<<<

Wasn't that Melvin, the Gladiator? He ended up in custody at the end of DD2 70... 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
But who is that man in the Daredevil costume in Pulse 13? 
<<<

Urich had D-Man figured out, I think he had a buddy dress up like Daredevil. I really don't see how that could really be Matt... 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Now there really isn't a place for Spec. Spiderman #21 to occur 
<<<

Heh. I was wondering who would bring that up. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 11:41 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Wasn't that Melvin, the Gladiator? He ended up in custody at the end of DD2 70...  
<<<

Ah, of course! I couldn't place the face for some reason...but yeah, that's definently him. 


Quote: 
>>>
Urich had D-Man figured out, I think he had a buddy dress up like Daredevil. I really don't see how that could really be Matt...  
<<<

I was thinking, "Okay, it's Peter Parker, dressed up in the Daredevil costume, doing a favor for Urich." Because Urich knows Peter is Spider-man, and Peter's worn the DD costume before. But nope, the story doesn't bother to explain who's wearing the costume...thus, I would like to think that the writer, (Bendis) intended for it to truly be Matt. 

It' possible, you know...Bendis can't keep track of his own book's chronology, he might've thought Daredevil was out of jail at that point in Pulse 13, (it's not like he can keep track).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 02:09 am    
By jephyork
Director

It's possible that Jameson's quote "the Feds have Murdock, he's going down" was based on insider newspaper information -- and what he meant was "the Feds have everything they need and are about to move on Murdock ... I'm confident he'll shortly be going down". 

Then just swap the order of Pulse #11-13 and DD2 #76-81 and we're good.  

As for SSM2 #21 -- could the Kingpin have been let out on parole for good behavior, gone to the poker game, then had his parole revoked or was re-arrested for something off-panel? Possibly even associating with known criminal the Black Cat at the poker game might have been grounds for revoking his parole... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 05:42 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It depends where DAREDEVIL goes under Brubaker. For the PULSE arc to make sense, we need a period when (i) the Murdock Papers are common knowledge, since they're on the front page of the Daily Bugle; (ii) Daredevil has not yet been convicted or acquitted, since Jameson believes he's "going down"; and (iii) Daredevil is at large and able to visit D-Man. Strictly speaking, only (iii) is truly essential to the plot of PULSE and should take priority if no adequate gap can be found. 

The Murdock Papers only become public knowledge once that DD storyline is underway, after which Daredevil is caught up in battle all the way through to DD2 80. So we're after that issue. 

Although there's a break in the action between DD2 80-81, there's no way Daredevil's at large between those issues. The hearing in DD2 81 is an arraignment. This ought to take place the day after he was arrested. In any event, he couldn't have obtained bail in ADVANCE of the arraignment, because the whole point of the arraignment hearing is to decide whether to grant bail! (See this page for more details of the New York State legal procedure.) 

So Matt's in jail between DD2 80-81, and gets sent off to jail at the end of the issue. He remains there for at least the next arc. 

But it doesn't follow that Matt remains in jail until his trial. He might get bail at a later stage, in which case he can appear in PULSE at that point. 

There are two other possibilities. One is that Urich simply enlists some schlub to dress up as Daredevil on the basis that poor, addled D-Man won't know the difference. A bit of a stretch unless subsequent issues confirm it. The other is that the penultimate page of PULSE 13 is out of chronological sequence, and Ben doesn't return with Daredevil until Matt finally gets out of jail.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 01:33 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
As for SSM2 #21 -- could the Kingpin have been let out on parole for good behavior, gone to the poker game, then had his parole revoked or was re-arrested for something off-panel? Possibly even associating with known criminal the Black Cat at the poker game might have been grounds for revoking his parole... 
<<<


Well, at the start of the "Murdock Papers" storyline, it's stated that the Feds have been holding Fisk since DD2 50, (when Matt defeated him), but they've never brought Fisk to trial, because they've never found enough evidence to convict Fisk...which would actually mean they've been holding Fisk for over a year illegally.  

So I don't think he's out on parole, (as there's never even been a trial)...Maybe he was out on bail in advance of his trial, and after the game in SSM2 #21 he was thrown back in jail for some sort of violation of the terms of his bail. 

It doesn't make since, but we've got to find some sort of reason why Kingpin isn't in jail...it's all because of sloppy editing on the part of Marvel. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2006 01:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
There are two other possibilities. One is that Urich simply enlists some schlub to dress up as Daredevil on the basis that poor, addled D-Man won't know the difference.  
<<<

Or, that the DD who appears in PULSE 13 is...an LMD!  


Quote: 
>>>
Maybe he was out on bail in advance of his trial, and after the game in SSM2 #21 he was thrown back in jail for some sort of violation of the terms of his bail.  
<<<

Or, maybe the Kingpin in SSM2 21 is...an LMD!  


Guys, these stories and the whole Fury thing are all a set-up to an upcoming multi-part crossover epic titled "LMD Nation." I'm sure of it! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Jan 2006 11:30 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Gadzooks!!! I just finished reading another pesky Daredevil appearance this week: Thing #3: In the last few pages, Daredevil appears and gives a present to Alicia Masters... 

She says, "A present? But my birthday's weeks away." 

Daredevil says, "I know. But I'm going to be...detained for a while." 

A reference to the Murdock Papers perhaps? Earlier in the issue, Mr. Bartleby says, "You're Daredevil!!!" 

To which Matt replies, "No. I'm the one who's suing the papers for CLAIMING I'm Daredevil." 

So he's keeping up the ruse at first, yet by the end of the issue, he's making comments that sound like he knows he's about to head off to jail. Can this be squeezed in around the Murdock Papers perhaps? Or is it another LMD? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 31 Jan 2006 10:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've been busy recalculating things based on the outcome of A4 15 -- Nick's still on the outs with SHIELD after HOM. So here's how the calendar is shaping up in regards to Fury's chronology during Year 23. This is the chronological order I have for story arcs in which Fury (or his LMD...I hope) appear at some point or other: 

M/TU3 1-6 
CA5 1-14 
W3 20-31 
AAF2 7-12 
A4 14-FB (15p2, 15p4) 
SECWAR 1-5 and PULSE 6 
A4 14-FB (16) 
PUN7 13-18 
NX:HELLIONS 1-4 [LMD] 
M/TU3 7-13 [LMD] 
HERC 4-5 [LMD] 
FOES 3 [LMD] 
IM:I 1 [LMD]* 
FOES 6 [LMD] 
M/N:I 4 [LMD] 
HOM 
C&DP 24 [LMD] 
FF 527-532 [LMD] 
A4 11-15 

(*May be moved to the end if it's shown that IM:I does indeed follow IM4 1-6, despite the dates in the comics.) 

Not included is Nick Fury's Howling Commandos, which has an analysis pending. 

Am I on the right track...at least for now?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Feb 2006 01:57 am    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
HOM 
C&DP 24 [LMD] 
FF 527-532 [LMD] 
A4 11-15  
<<<

I was hoping that FF 527-532 would have been able to be pushed back further to allow for the real Col. Fury to appear here, but with the Thing series having a recent Daredevil cameo, I guess not. Oh well. 

C&DP 24 though, I thought was a bit later. In issue 20, Irene says to Nate: 

"Nate, It's been a few months since you turned yourself into a "Burnt Offering" for the world, but your grace period is running out." 

Now that that arc has been pushed closer to HoM,(I think, last time I checked, anyway) I took this to mean that C&DP 20 is a 'few months' after HoM, possibly leaving enough room for Fury to return, whenever that may be. The wrench is Spider-Man appearing here, and if he starts wearing the suit Tony designed for him, whenver he starts wearing it. If Spider-Man's timeline is not reconcilable with Fury's, I guess it'll have to be an LMD. Oh well. 

As for Howling Commandos, I think it's taking place in the same relative time frame that the current Hulk issues are. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Am I on the right track...at least for now? 
<<<

I would say yes... for now. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 01 Feb 2006 06:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
"Nate, It's been a few months since you turned yourself into a "Burnt Offering" for the world, but your grace period is running out." 

Now that that arc has been pushed closer to HoM,(I think, last time I checked, anyway) I took this to mean that C&DP 20 is a 'few months' after HoM, possibly leaving enough room for Fury to return, whenever that may be. 
<<<

I took the "burnt offering" statement to be a reference to XFOR2 6, which is actually more than just "a few months" before C&DP 20. So it's really a reference to the events of HOM? 


Quote: 
>>>
As for Howling Commandos, I think it's taking place in the same relative time frame that the current Hulk issues are.  
<<<

So...LMD or genuine article?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Feb 2006 06:29 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

HOWLING COMMANDOS doesn't present a problem, since it's effectively self-contained. Fury only appears in issue #1 - he was never supposed to be a regular character, and they added him to the title without even telling the writer. From what we've seen so far, there's no obvious reason why his appearance couldn't be pre-SECRET WAR.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Feb 2006 10:02 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote:
>>>
"Nate, It's been a few months since you turned yourself into a "Burnt Offering" for the world, but your grace period is running out." 

Now that that arc has been pushed closer to HoM,(I think, last time I checked, anyway) I took this to mean that C&DP 20 is a 'few months' after HoM, possibly leaving enough room for Fury to return, whenever that may be. 
<<<

I took the "burnt offering" statement to be a reference to XFOR2 6, which is actually more than just "a few months" before C&DP 20. So it's really a reference to the events of HOM? 
<<<

The "burnt offering" line is a blatant reference to The Burnt Offering, the title of C/D #7-10 (and the TPB of #7-12), and the way he P.O.ed the world's governments while getting nearly everyone else on his side in that arc.

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Posted: 01 Feb 2006 02:29 pm    
By Col_Fury

Ah. Well then, there you go. 

But then, how long is 'a few months'? Usually three, but maybe five? Even then, I don't think that's enough time for Fury to return. This appearance may end up being an LMD after all, I guess. Oh well.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 01 Feb 2006 10:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
But then, how long is 'a few months'? Usually three, but maybe five? Even then, I don't think that's enough time for Fury to return. This appearance may end up being an LMD after all, I guess. Oh well. 
<<<


Well, I have close to a year between C&DP 7-12 and C&DP 20, so "a few months" is already a big understatement. We have the real Fury in that C&DP 7-12 arc, but then after that he appears in all the story arcs I listed in this post (plus a few before M/TU 1-6).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 11:12 am    
By Somebody

Well, C/D #24 is: 

1) Post-MKSM #13 (Peter starts working for the Bugle occasionally again - I'm not sure where that falls relative to HoM, so I'm including it here) 
2) Post-HoM 
3) Pre-new Spidey costume, which probably means pre-Other.

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 12:35 pm  
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
3) Pre-new Spidey costume, which probably means pre-Other. 
<<<

Not necessarily -- Spidey appears in his classic costume in FNS-M #5 and M/KS-M (whoops, I mean SENS-M2) #23 -- both post-Other... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Feb 2006 09:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
HOWLING COMMANDOS doesn't present a problem, since it's effectively self-contained. Fury only appears in issue #1 - he was never supposed to be a regular character, and they added him to the title without even telling the writer. From what we've seen so far, there's no obvious reason why his appearance couldn't be pre-SECRET WAR. 
<<<


If that's the case, then Brother Voodoo is likely in issue #2 sometime before GAM4 8, which I don't suppose is a problem for those of us who don't emphasize publication dates across titles when establishing chronologies. (And is it really Walter Langkowski in that issue?)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 09:01 am    
By jephyork
Director

Wait, what? Sasquatch appears in an issue of Howling Commandos? Can you provide some details on that, Paul? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Feb 2006 11:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

A sasquatch. Not THE Sasquatch out of Alpha Flight. 

(Or more accurately, "The Sasquatch" in the sense that it's presented as the mythical beast - but we already know there's a whole race of them, so it's just one of many.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 08 Feb 2006 02:52 pm    
By gregorynbaker

The holographic, post New Avengers 14 Nick Fury is in Cable & Deadpool 25, which came out this week. At the end of C&D 24, Captain America meets Fury, in the flesh, during the day on the Helicarrier. It looks like he is back as the head of SHIELD, or is the LMD that SHIELD is using to keep up appearances. But in C&D 25, Cap is at Avengers Tower (or another building, its kind of hard to tell), it is night, and Fury is appearing holographically. 

Anyway, more fuel on this blazing inferno.

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Posted: 09 Feb 2006 04:14 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, in that case Nicieza's simply correcting a continuity error in the previous issue by bringing Fury into line with the way he ought to appear. Seems clear enough.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Feb 2006 02:11 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Something that might cause people to perk up: Marvel have released unlettered art for two pages of Bendis' ILLUMINATI one-shot, and one of them is a duplicate of Nick Fury briefing the Hulk in advance of being shot into space. So, apparently, we ARE going to get a direct explanation of how that story fits into Fury's timeline.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Feb 2006 06:42 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, then...looks like I need to get cracking on that Hulk chronology review... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Apr 2006 06:24 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=13265#13265 
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Page starting "Is there any way to possibly monitor..." He sees the security map directly. Kinda subtle, but it's there. 
<<<

Hmm...that is subtle. I thought Stark was looking at a security monitor in the room. 
<<<

And IM:Inevitable #5 puts the arc's post-Extremisness beyond doubt - we're shown him suiting up with the under-skin gold suit, along with umpteen dialogue references. 

Also, we've got a shot of Avengers Tower with Watchtower in place, and Spidey in the "classic" suit (although, in a downright weird glitch, Cage is shown with his HoM hairstyle in the same panel)

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Posted: 26 May 2006 11:14 am    
By Somebody

IM8 has Spidey in the Iron Spider suit. Looks like the order goes Extremis --> Inevitable --> Execute Program, with The Other probably between the latter two.

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Posted: 26 May 2006 06:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
with The Other probably between the latter two 
<<<

Or maybe just ASM 529-ASM 531(page 20) between the latter two. We haven't ruled out a gap between the conclusion of the Other (ASM 528) and the debut of the Iron Spidey costume (ASM 529)...yet. 

Massive re-noodling going on BTS...
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 24

Posted: 23 May 2006 11:57 am    Post subject: OK ANYONE BORED AND WANNA HELP ME OUT?
By dubj1979

Forgive me if I'm breaking any rules but i just needed some help. I dont have time to chrono some things for a friend I got hooked on comics. So I will say what I have and if someone could suggest a good reading order for them that would be great. 

Uncanny X #410 to present 
New Xmen/Xmen #142 to present 
Astonishing Xmen #1 to present 
District X/Mutopia X All 
Black Panther(current) All 
Avengers/ New Avengers #500-current 
Runaways(current)All 
New Xmen AcadX All 
Every HofM Tie in 
Fury's Secret War 
Secret war Pulse tie in 
All New Decimation Books 
X-factor, New Excaliber,198,deadly Gen, Generation X, Son of M, Etc 
Excaliber #1-New Excaliber present 
Woverine ?agent of Shield Arc to Current 
Orgins 
Sentry Arc 
Spider woman orgins 
The Other and AMS from then to current 

I'm trying to do this myself but i just dont have the time 
If someone could do it by story arc that'd be great,

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Posted: 23 May 2006 03:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Information on most of these is already available here, if you do a little digging. Uncanny X-Men, from 410 to approximately 440, for instance, is already included in the Project, in the regular listings. Almost all of your other requests are covered either in Paul Bourcier's Marvel Calendar (the link is at the bottom of this page), or by using the search feature here on the Forum (the link is at the top of this page). 

Probably the best approach would be to check into what's already available, and then ask any specific questions, or better yet, participate in the ongoing discussions. 


watching: situation room

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Posted: 23 May 2006 03:28 pm    
By ajbrown

The calender really is excellent. 

I was wondering if anyone had done a list of chronological Spidey appearances from Pulse 2 onwards (the point at which the MCP ends at the moment)? 

I could trawl through the calender and find every Spidey appearance from Pulse 2 to the present, but I imagine someone has already done that and I'd love to see that list. 

Thanks!
_________________
AJ

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Posted: 23 May 2006 07:50 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The calendar isn't particularly adept at listing character appearances. You kind of need the books themselves to determine that. 


watching: larry king

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Posted: 23 May 2006 08:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The calendar isn't particularly adept at listing character appearances. You kind of need the books themselves to determine that. 
<<<


That is one drawback of the current calendar format. We're including character lists in the draft portion that predates the posted calendar, but it's a bit difficult to go back and insert all character appearances in the current calendar. If someone's game, though, be my guest!  

Anyway, a workaround for the Spidey situation is a bit clunky, but here goes: you could block and save the calendar as a (really big) word processing document, then do a "find" for "Spide" and for "Parker," edit out false hits and then cobble the two results together. As I mentioned, it's clunky but maybe better than leafing through hundreds of books looking for recent Spidey appearances. 

Bear in mind, too, that the last six months of the Calendar are being reworked and chronologies for that period may end up quite a bit different from the way they're posted.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 May 2006 10:47 pm    
By dubj1979

Thanks for the info you guys Rock!

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Thread 25

Posted: 26 May 2006 01:35 pm    Post subject: Recent Spider-Woman chronology
By jannepie

Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew) went through a seventeen-month procedure recently, when Hydra gave back her powers (seen in New Avengers #14). Did this take place before or after her appearances in Alias? 

I haven't read Spider-Woman vol. 3 and I don't know if she lost her powers permanently there. In Alias she mentions that her powers aren't always working properly and she is working as a private investigator. 

Could there even be a seventeen month long gaps between her appearances in Spider-Woman vol. 3/Alias and Alias/New Avengers? IIRC it took Hydra's scientists some time before they could even start the procedure. If there are no gaps that long, would it be possible for her the appear in Alias during the procedure? 

The following is speculation: That could explain why she spent a month in Istanbul (or so she claimed), where she was coming from. The scientists would have worked with her spider-bite but hadn't tinkered with the flight ability yet.

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Posted: 26 May 2006 07:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

janniepie, have you checked out this thread?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 May 2006 12:38 am    
By jannepie

Thank you! And no, I was not aware of that thread even though I used the search function. Dumb me. 

Feel free to delete this thread. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2006 08:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

No problem, Janne.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 26

Posted: 31 May 2006 01:37 pm    Post subject: X:HY 22 correction
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Avia is behind the scenes in this story (the X-Men mention in the epilogue that they've just returned her to the Savage Land). That should be added to the end of her listing, after X:HY 17. 

While I'm at it, Candy Southern is behind the scenes in issue #18 (Angel mentions that she's "wrapping up the last details back at Worthington Manor"), which should create an appearance for her between issues #16 and #22. 

And Kraven the Hunter also probably deserves a BTS listing in issue #18, since the X-Men report having just dropped him off for the police (not something they'd planned to do in the previous issue, where they were angsting about having to let him go). 

Oh, and Tobias Messenger has an origin flashback in issue #19, which should be the first entry in his listing, before AAF 14.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 27

Posted: 01 May 2006 07:22 am    Post subject: Ghost Rider (2005/06) #1-6
By JLH

This is, what, volume four, since the last one was subtitled "Hammer Lane"? It's the second Marvel Knights mini concerning GR, at least. 

------------------------------------ 

GHOST RIDER #1 [November 2005] 
Writer: Garth Ennis 
Art: Clayton Crain 
"The Road to Damnation, Part One" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE (also in Flashback) 
MALACHI III ("Angel of the Lord", as he puts it. Elder brother of Daniel) 
DANIEL (Angel) 
KAZAAN/MICAH-BTS (his being "loose" is the reason Daniel & Malachi are meeting, and Hoss & Ruth are searching the country) 
HOSS (Hell's most able tracker-scout) 
BUTTVIEW (director's cut script calls him pre-alteration "Spotty", but that's just short for "spotty blond idiot") 
RUTH (Heaven's best Archangel assassin) 

Other characters: 
Pregnant woman on street (one of the "one in four million" who can see the angels, gets "turned off" for an hour or two by Malachi, and miscarries) 
Three or four other bikers (all killed) 
The worst Hell has to offer (creatures known as the Nightcomers, the Blackpires, the Gutting Crew, the My Lai Air Cavalry, the 
Womb-Squabs, the Shining Klan, the Gang of Nine, the Ribbon Kings, the Old Horned Gentry, and the Rhymers). None are directly 
shown, just named in the caption as among the mass of demons who attack Ghost Rider nightly. 
Young boy and Mother (kid can see Ruth's true form, possibly dies) 
Bus Driver (guy who drives the bus Ruth is on) 

Summary: So, Johnny Blaze is in hell. Every night he rides, as the Ghost Rider, trying to outrun the hordes of demons to escape. 
And every night they catch him, rip him asunder, and generally inflict pain. He's repaired the next day, and resumes the cycle on his 
cycle. At sunset in Manhattan, a pair of angels, Daniel and Malachi, meet atop a gargoyle on the Chrysler Building. They're meant to be 
meeting in secret, Daniel assures Malachi that only the rare sensitive can see them, and then proceeds to express his dismay with his elder brother over Kazaan being loose on Earth. He tells him both heaven and hell have sent their best trackers to hunt Kazaan down. Malachi has apparently been using info fed to him from Kazaan to get a promotion, and giving info to him in return. If Kazaan is caught by heaven, this arrangement between them will be revealed. A pregnant woman spots them, Malachi shuts her off, she miscarries. 

Meanwhile, in Texas, the fat Southern tracker from hell known as Hoss is driving along, when a biker gang passes by, damaging his Caddy. To retaliate, he kills the lot of them, save for the actual one who did the job, who is mangled beyond repair. Needing someone who knows the local roads, he offers the biker a job as his driver, and proceeds to put him back together... though his head up his ass. Thus, now that biker is the creature called Buttview. Elsewhere, at a "Dine & Dash", the archangel Ruth is paying for her meal when a small boy keeps trying to tell his mother about the "lady with wings". The mother pays no attention, but Ruth notices and puts a hex on the kid, making him believe he's a sinner and causing him to shove colored pencils into his eyes. Ruth departs, gets on a Grayhound bus, and acts as if nothing's happened. 

Back in Manhattan, Daniel goes over the story of Johnny Blaze selling his soul to the devil to save his pal Crash Simpson from Cancer, only to have Crash die trying to go out in a blaze of glory in a motorcycle stunt. Blaze is saved from going to hell, ends up tied to a powerful demon, and becomes Ghost Rider from then on. He travels the Earth, facing some powerful foes, living the double life as both Blaze and GR. Malachi is intrigued at the idea of getting this powerful but gullible person to help get to Kazaan first, but there's a catch. A couple of years ago, hell caught up to him, and despite his riding expertise, they caught him and drug him back to hell, to suffer for his sins for all eternity. Malachi is unsure of how to do it, but he has to get Ghost Rider out of hell! 

Flashback: Aside from the stuff to Blaze's origin, none of which is new, there is a one-panel flashback to "a couple of years ago" 
when Johnny was finally caught by the demons of hell and drug off to fulfill his sentence. This would directly pre-date this issue, 
obviously. 

Continuity notes: It's said Blaze became Ghost Rider "thirty years ago". Oh, that Ennis! He loves his real-world clock! 

Interestingly, Daniel isn't aware of what demon was bonded to Blaze. He thinks it to be a super-powerful hellspawn like "one of Belial's Calvary, maybe or the Royal Firekind." 

The "Director's Cut" includes the original proposal where Malachi is named "Samuel". Just thought it'd mention that. 

Goofs: In the flashback to the early days, Johnny Blaze looks more like Johnny Depp than his usual blond self. Interestingly, those 
two flashback shots of him in the early days are the only time he ever appears without his skull flaming this whole mini-series. The Director's Cut script has Ennis telling the artist that, during the flashback, to draw whatever incarnation of GR he feels like, it doesn't have to be the one featured earlier in this issue... and Crain proceeds to draw the exact same one seen earlier in the book. Jeez. 

Daniel's retelling of Blaze's origin is pretty... off. It's expected, ya know, hearsay and all that, details missing. But among the goofs: 1) 
Crash Simpson wasn't Johnny's "friend", but essentially his adopted father! But the truth makes for less jokes about homosexuals. 2) 
Johnny didn't sell his soul to the "Devil", but Mephisto, per the far more accepted retcon. You'd think angels would know the difference... if there is one. Anyway, it's not as though this is the definitive telling of his origin. Daniel admits he doesn't know how 
exactly Blaze was saved from going to hell initially (which was due to Roxanne's interference). 

Calendar notes: The whole issue takes place between sunset and into early night. Weatherwise, it's partly cloudy. Pregnant woman in New York isn't wearing anything short-sleeved or particularly heavy, just casual business attire. Texas doesn't seem to be overly hot or cold at this time either. No trees are seen, nor is the moon. 

Timeframe: 
Pages 1-4: Ghost Rider goes through his daily routine of trying to outrace the demons in hell, gets beaten, and destroyed. Though 
this could take place the day prior to the rest of the issue, it's probably instead the end of this "day's" cycle, and when we see him 
next, it's the start of his next day's one. 
Pages 5-8: Angels Daniel & Malachi meet atop a skyscraper in Manhattan to discuss the Kazaan situation. Pregnant woman spots them, Malachi turns her off for a few hours, causing her to miscarry. 
Pages 9-12: Sunset in Texas, Hoss encounters bikers, kills all but one, that survivor getting altered into a creature he dubs "Buttview". 
Pages 13-16: Early night in Manhattan, Daniel tells Malachi the story of Ghost Rider. 
Pages 17-19: Night in Texas, Ruth's true form is seen by a small boy, whom she causes to gouge his own eyes out before boarding a bus. 
Pages 20-22: Night in Manhattan, Daniel finishes the tale, explaining GR's current fate, which means Malachi will have to bust him out of hell. 


------------------------------------ 

GHOST RIDER #2 [December 2005] 
Writer: Garth Ennis 
Art: Clayton Crain 
"The Road to Damnation, Part Two" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
MALACHI III 
KAZAAN/MICAH 
HOSS-BTS (GR is told to watch out for him) 
RUTH-BTS (GR is told to watch out for her) 
GUSTAV, EARL (quadriplegic billionaire owner of Gustav Petroleum) 
CATMINT, JEMIMA (his personal assistant) 

Other characters: 
The Gustav Petroleum Board of Directors (all die, their bodies turned into a big mass of flesh and bone for Kazaan to take form) 
The worst Hell has to offer (the usual bunch of demons after GR daily) 
Several members of the Ku Klux Klan (all die) 
A Klan's member's daughter 
Jimmy (black man they try to hang for trying to marry the daughter) 

Summary: Earl Gustav hates everyone. He's in a mood and whines about how everyone is a bastard, and so forth, and how they're all parasites and he could buy and sell everyone. His assistant, a mousy young woman called Ms. Catmint, is used to this from him, and tries to calm him down. He's a bloatedly fat guy in a special crane-like wheelchair, a quadriplegic from a drunk driving accident (he was drunk, crashed into a school bus, killed eight children). They head into the board room, and he immediately fires his the board of directors of his company, Gustav Petroleum, and proceeds to insult them. They're all angry, but he's got more money and sway and makes it clear he'll use it to sue them back or get them arrested for prostitution. That sort of thing. Earl then heads to his private chamber, which features a large pentagram on the floor. He summons Kazaan, who informs him that the pentacle isn't enough, he'll need physical form to come to Earth. Gustav calls Ms. Catmint, telling her to recall the board, saying all is forgiven. 

In hell, Ghost Rider finally makes it through the gates! Yet, he's still trapped in hell. Truth is, the angel Malachi has appeared and created this illusion, as well as another one of a fake GR to allow the demons to chase after elsewhere. The angel explains that he'll give him freedom from hell, either to return to Earth freed from his curse or he can go to his reward in heaven, if he'll hunt down the powerful demon Kazaan and return him to the pit. Malachi has arranged for him to be freed from hell for a short period to do this task, but he'll have competition in the form of Hoss and Ruth. He stresses how powerful and ruthless Ruth is, how she'll kill any innocent to do her job, and only Jesus is higher in power than she is. Malachi claims to represent a secret faction of angels who reject the violent ways of archangels, ones of conscience, blah blah lies. Kazaan is currently bodiless, so there's no way to know what he looks like until he manifests. The Pack in hell becomes aware of Malachi's illusions, so GR has to decide quickly if he wants to do this. In Texas, a group of the KKK are planning to hang a black man named Jimmy for being involved with a daughter of the Klansmen. She's planning to marry him, and protests her father killing the man she loves. Jimmy finds it absurd these people are living in a different century than he is. Anyway, suddenly, a portal from hell opens nearby, and out pops Ghost Rider, free at last! In doing so, he tears across the Klan, killing all but the daughter. She assures Jimmy that her mother will see things different, but Jimmy's gotten free and is running for his life. 

Back at the Gustav HQ, Earl is having an apology party, trying to win back the trust of the board of directors. It works, and he brings them into his private chamber. Once they're on the pentacle, they're all viciously ripped apart, and their remnants become the building blocks for Kazaan to take physical shape. Ms Catmint is especially stunned by this event. 


Continuity notes: It's made clear here that Johnny Blaze's current GR form is just himself as a skeleton on fire. This differs from the most recent status quo, which was a sort of Bruce Banner/Hulk situation where he was sort of shared body with an unnamed demon. 

Archangel Ruth is said to have a sister named Esther, who is just as powerful as she is. Not important, but it's mentioned. 

Calendar notes: The whole issue takes place during the same night as the previous issue. The tree Jimmy is being hung on has no leaves, but... hey, it's Texas. No moon seen. 

Timeframe: 
Pages 1-5: At early night, Earl Gustav fires his board of directors. 
Pages 6-8: In hell, Ghost Rider encounters Malachi for the first time. 
Pages 9-10: Gustav talks to Kazaan through the pentagram, has Catmint call back board. 
Pages 11-14: GR is given the deal of freedom by Malachi, and told of Hoss & Ruth. 
Pages 15-17: Night, Ghost Rider escapes to Earth, killing a bunch of the KKK, saving Jimmy from being hung. 
Pages 18-22: Well into night, Board of GP is called back, tricked into pentagram, killed and turned into a body for Kazaan, who comes to Earth. 


------------------------------------ 

GHOST RIDER #3 [January 2006] 
Writer: Garth Ennis 
Art: Clayton Crain 
"The Road to Damnation, Part Three" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
DANIEL 
MALACHI III 
KAZAAN/MICAH 
HOSS 
BUTTVIEW 
RUTH 
GUSTAV, EARL 
CATMINT, JEMIMA 
FATHER ADAM (evil priest working for hell/ex-Army Ranger) 

Other characters: 
Private Security Battalion-BTS (five hundred ex-military soldiers working for Gustav) 
Bus Driver and those on the bus Ruth was on (all seemingly killed) 
Father Adam's congregation (all killed) 
Voice from Hell (whoever it is isn't directly said, but it's not either of the main two angels) 

Summary: Daniel and Malachi meet on the moon this time, to avoid any chance of anyone spotting them. Malachi has set Ghost Rider free, but as Daniel notes, Kazaan now has physical form. Daniel wants no further part in this scheme to cover Malachi's tracks, he's quite happy being a lesser angel, able to enjoy the wonder of humanity, which Malachi still scoffs at. 

Meanwhile, morning in Texas. Hoss is driving along the desert road with his pal Buttview, when Ghost Rider passes them! Hoss, recognizing GR from his nightly ride in hell past a whorehouse he frequents, catches up to the Spirit of Vengeance, questioning what he's doing free. Takes GR a minute to recognize him, and he quickly responds by spewing fire into his car. Not wanting to go back to hell just yet, GR keeps at Hoss, who can of course regenerate quickly. He snatches the fat demon out of his car, leaving Buttview to drive, using his mouth-chains. As the two continue their fight on this desolate road, a Greyhound Bus passes, narrowly avoiding a collision with the battling pair. But a certain archangel on board, Ruth, has a change of plans, taking control of it and driving it at them. Both recognize her and get out of the way just in time, though the bus wrecks. Hoss finally figures out that GR is after the same thing he and Ruth are. Before this can be discussed further, they have to deal with the bus being tossed at them by Ruth. 

Elsewhere, Kazaan expresses concern over those who will be aware of his arrival on Earth. Gustav has security forces, but despite their viciousness, they're still merely humans. Kazaan mentions he's among many in hell who tire of the old ways of the cold war between heaven and hell, with all its ageless rules and regulations. So his, and their, plan is to start a new hell on Earth, while leaving the old hell to battle with heaven like it always does. Or something to that effect. Gustav is willing to do anything to walk again, and Kazaan gives him his ultimate wish... for a moment, just to tease him. 

And elsewhere still, a priest named Father Adam is holding services. He's talking about how there's no contradiction between Christianity and Capitalism, and his own portfolio is doing well from getting in on the ground floor with Haliburton. Suddenly, a voice speaks to him from below, saying that time has come to pay them back for looking after him by keeping his "indiscretion" under wraps. He must go to Texas, find Ghost Rider, and send him back to hell by killing him. Adam proceeds to ensure no one will be looking for him by blowing up the church on his way out, his cache of high tech weapons in tow. 

And Kazaan is pleased with Ms. Catmint's work on applying sigils to the machine Gustav had created per the demon's specifications. It's a giant drill, aimed for the ground. 

Continuity notes: Is the American flag and all the Apollo lunar landing stuff still on the moon in the MU lately? Cause it is here. 

Ghost Rider's new powers are displayed here, he can breathe fire like a dragon, as well as spew chains from his mouth as well. This is explained by his comment, "You don't spend two years trapped in hell without picking up a few tricks!" 

Going by Ennis' love of real-world-time from issue 1, this "two years" thing means he's been there since 2004, or since after his last mini/his TBolts appearance from his perspective. Since he hasn't appeared elsewhere since then (Megamorphs aside), it's not entirely helpful, but at least doesn't contradict anything. 

Goofs: Malachi claims in two-thousand years the moon is as far as humans have gotten. Ahem... this may be true for the real world, but for the MU? C'mon! 

Calendar notes: Takes place the morning after the previous two issues (in the moon scene, Daniel says Kazaan took physical form "last night"). When we see the lunar surface, the sun isn't blocked by the Earth from one of the perspectives of it, though I haven't a clue what that'd mean in terms of phases. Father Adam is told he has "inside of forty-eight hours" to get GR back to hell. 

Timeframe: 
Pages 1-2: Malachi and Daniel hang out on the moon. 
Pages 3-4: Morning, bright blue skies. Hoss & Buttview encounter Ghost Rider. 
Pages 5-7: Kazaan warns his return won't go unnoticed, Gustav is given his wish momentarily. 
Pages 8-12: GR faces Hoss. Ruth's bus passes by, she takes it over. 
Pages 13-15: Father Adam's church. Fully green trees around it. He hears from hell, is given his target, blows the place up. 
Pages 16-20: Hoss & GR avoid getting run down by Ruth, only to have her toss the bus at them. 
Pages 21-22: Kazaan is shown his giant drill by Gustav and Catmint. 


------------------------------------ 

GHOST RIDER #4 [February 2006] 
Writer: Garth Ennis 
Art: Clayton Crain 
"The Road to Damnation, Part Four" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
KAZAAN/MICAH (also in Flashbacks to WWII) 
HOSS 
BUTTVIEW 
RUTH 
GUSTAV, EARL 
CATMINT, JEMIMA 
FATHER ADAM (also in Flashbacks) 

Other characters: 
Private Security Battalion (most are killed) 
Old lady on train (soon to be a major motion picture!) 
Thousands of demons 


Summary: Hoss and Ghost Rider crawl out from under the wreckage of the bus. GR is not only stunned by the carnage she brought, but notices his motorcycle is missing! She's taken off on it, headed for her target with a good head start on them. 

At said target, Gustav Petroleum, the giant drill is at maximum rev and has begun its dig into the surface of the Earth. Kazaan expresses his delight in Catmint's efficiency again, and when Gustav agrees and asks if he'll eat her soul later, he explains that in the glory to come he'll have no need of mortal souls. He's going to build a new and better hell, one without the old customs. All he needs is time, which Gustav assures him he'll have, thanks to the tons of highly armed guards outside the building. 

Back at the bus crash, Hoss offers GR a deal. He'll give him a ride to their target if they agree to work together in taking down Kazaan. GR is a bit apprehensive, since he's a demon from hell and all, but the southern gentleman in the fat beast comes through honestly enough. So, with Buttview driving, the two hop into the damaged caddy. GR immediately asks why Ruth is taking a bus and he's got his own fancy car: heaven's got a tight budget, and hell's where all the billionaires go. Also, as per the rules, both have to "blend in" by using human means of transport, so no flying around or things like that, I guess. 

Elsewhere, Father Adam is on a train, listening to a senile old woman talk about how much she hates sinners today. He expresses his view of redemption through Jesus, not the fire-and-brimstone angle she's pushing for. He flashes back to his own sin, when he sold his soul for love in some way. Back in the caddy, Hoss tells GR how he ended up in hell (he killed himself after defiling his mother's underwear drawer... Hey, this isn't even a Max book!), then explains what he knows of Kazaan. Though it's unknown how he does it, Kazaan always seem to know what's going on in heaven and cuts them off ahead of time, allowing hell to head off peace & love, thus scoring points for him. But he feels he should be promoted higher, and is restless, and has a lot of younger demons & radicals on his side. If Kazaan starts his own hell on Earth, it'll upset the balance, something any sane demon wants kept in check. 

Just head, Ruth arrives at Gustav Petroleum, faces the security guards, takes some guns, rides through them on GR's bike, all the expected violence. Not that she's able to do much but kill soldiers, since the giant drill has reached ten miles in depth, and broken through. The magma activates the sigils, and allows the drill to drill through the spirit barrier, creating a tunnel between the afterlife and the physical plane. Ruth finishes off the last of the guards, and Hoss, GR & Buttview arrive just in time to see the Gustav skyscraper rip apart in a swarm of escaping demons. 


Flashbacks: The first shows Father Adam and an unnamed white woman inside of a heart, with other cartoon hearts floating and Cupid nearby. This is followed by a shot of Adam without his shirt, in his bedroom, summoning a fiery demon from hell. The next panel shows him signing a parchment from that demon, implying he sold his soul. 

Another one page shot shows World War II, Nazi flags and fighter planes & tanks. An approximation of countries... and a giant angel and a devil-like demon nearby. This is meant to represent one of the times when Kazaan got the heads up for hell, but is really more of a remembrance than an actual flashback, I suppose. 


Continuity notes: We finally learn that Gustav Petroleum is in Dallas. 


Goofs: With Ruth stealing his bike, GR is forced to accept a ride from Hoss. But as has been shown since his original appearances, GR can make a motorcycle out of pure hellfire. Ennis seems to be confusing him with Silver Surfer. When Ruth rides it, interestingly, there's no fire on it at all, but electricity, implying it's powered by whomever rides it. 


Calendar notes: Same day as the previous issue. It starts to storm, and seems to remain sunlight on the horizon under the dark clouds. 

Timeframe: 
Pages 1-2: Skies are clouding up, GR & Hoss recover from bus smash. 
Page 3: Ruth rides cycle into the storm-clouded sky ahead. 
Pages 4-5: Gustav, Kazaan 
Pages 6-7: GR accepts ride with Hoss & Buttview. Storm clouds grow nearer. 
Pages 8-10: Storm skies, Father Adam on train with old woman. 
Pages 11-13: Rain-slicked roads, Hoss explains to GR the history of Kazaan 
Pages 14-21: Still rainy, Ruth arrives at Gustav Petroleum, fights security force. Inside, the giant drill breaches hell, drawing out demons. 
Page 22: GR, Hoss & Buttview arrive just in time to see the skycraper crawling with demons. 


------------------------------------ 

GHOST RIDER #5 [March 2006] 
Writer: Garth Ennis 
Art: Clayton Crain 
"The Road to Damnation, Part Five" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
DANIEL 
MALACHI III 
KAZAAN/MICAH 
HOSS 
BUTTVIEW 
RUTH 
GUSTAV, EARL 
CATMINT, JEMIMA 
FATHER ADAM 

Other characters: 
Private Security Battalion (only about one more is killed that we see) 
Thousands of demons 


Summary: So, Kazaan has released what he calls "the cream of the inferno", the "greatest fiends in all the pit". Hell has come to Texas. Up on the moon, the two angels are quite perturbed about the way the situation has unfolded. Malachi is still hopeful Ghost Rider will fulfill his side of the bargain, even by teaming up with Hoss, just as long as heaven doesn't end up capturing Kazaan. With Ruth still in the lead, and Father Adam now arriving, things aren't looking good for the bad angel. The last of the security soldiers flee from Ruth, as she makes her way to an elevator at the Gustav Petroleum building (what's left of it). Said elevator comes alive with several demons attached, taking her down instead of up as she needs to go. Hoss, GR, and Buttview make the scene, driving through the swarm of tentacle-like arms of the various demons flailing about. Ghost Rider uses his flame breath to also help clear the way. Atop the skyscraper, Kazaan addresses his assembled demons, getting them pepped for their new war on man, which will replace their old war on heaven. Ms. Catmint relates to Gustav that she wasn't aware this is what he had in mind, to destroy the Earth. He laughs at her naivete, pointing out she helped him out and will now have to live with it. Below, Ghost Rider finds his bike where Ruth ditched it. She shows up, having just gotten freed from the elevator demons. GR takes his bike and heads for the top of the building, while Hoss is left to take on the archangel. The pair duel, using (nearly) dead bodies of soldiers as weapons. Needless to say, Ruth wins, knocking the fat demon out. Just across the oil field or whatever, Father Adam prepares his weapons, a sniper rifle with crosses carved into the bullets (and anointed with holy water). He's repeatedly sinned, but hopes the lord can forgive him for that and selling his soul to Satan, but most of all, to aid him in killing Ghost Rider. Speaking of which, directly across at the Gustav place, GR finishes his drive up the elevator shaft, only to discover he took the wrong one! Separated from his target across the burning remains of the top floor of the building, Kazaan mocks GR, and is quite aware he's working with Malachi. GR is stunned by the revelation that the demon he was sent to destroy is possibly in cahoots with the angel who freed him, but is sidetracked when Father Adam tries and fails to shoot him. GR fires back his own fiery bullet from his mouth, setting the evil priest ablaze. Not that it helps any, since, now skinless and burned but still alive, Father Adam begs god for one more chance, which he's apparently about to have. 


Continuity notes: Honestly, it appears as though this incarnation of the Spirit of Vengeance should be renamed "Ghost Puker". Every attack he uses in this mini involves things coming out of his mouth. It'll be interesting to see if this is kept for the new monthly book or not. 

Calendar notes: This all takes place immediately following the previous issue, and runs almost about in real time, such as it is. So a matter of minutes, really. Since it all takes place in the same location (aside from the lunar landing spot for the angels, of course), no sense in a timeframe listing. 



------------------------------------ 

GHOST RIDER #6 [April 2006] 
Writer: Garth Ennis 
Art: Clayton Crain 
"The Road to Damnation, Conclusion" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE (dies, goes back to hell) 
MALACHI III (loses his wings, trapped in hell; also in flashback) 
KAZAAN/MICAH (dies, goes back to hell; also in flashback) 
HOSS 
BUTTVIEW 
RUTH 
GUSTAV, EARL (dies, goes to hell) 
CATMINT, JEMIMA 
FATHER ADAM (dies, goes to hell) 

Other characters: 
Thousands of demons (all sent back to hell) 
The worst Hell has to offer (the usual bunch of demons after GR daily are back, presumably they weren't among those that were involved with Kazaan) 


Summary: So, Kazaan spills the beans to Ghost Rider, that Malachi is to heaven what he is to hell, they've been working together because they're brothers. GR doesn't want to listen to the lies of a demon, and leaps his flaming cycle over at Kazaan, who hops off to meet him halfway. They crash into each other, the flames of GR's wheels shredding the demon to bits. They fall from the shattered building together, crashing down below. There, Kazaan's true form is revealed at last, a faceless white & blue angel. Above, Gustav is proud of his lord's success, when Ms. Catmint grabs his wheelchair and threatens to shove him over the side of what's left of the ledge they're on, unless he uses the reversal spell. Before Kazaan can depart to take another physical form, Ghost Rider spews some flaming chains from his mouth, holding the demon-angel in place. Ms. Catmint's sudden growth of a backbone proves fruitful, as she finally tortures Gustav into saying the spell, the hymn of recall. All the demons freed by the drill are summoned back into hell, taking Kazaan with them! He curses Ms Catmint, and promises GR will suffer for stopping him, before being sucked away. Ghost Rider proclaims with joy that he's finally free, only to get shot by the magic holy bullet from Father Adam, who finally dies, as well. Ms. Catmint is about to bring Gustav back off the side of the ledge, when Ruth pops up behind her, saying "boo", and causing her to let go. The obese billionaire plummets to his doom, leaving his assistant alone but alive. 

Next, we see Father Adam in what appears to be the bright whiteness of heaven, kneeling before the lord, who forgives him for all sins. No, wait, turns out it's Hoss in disguise, promising the idiot will burn in hell forever for selling his soul to devil, and turning on the flames, ending the facade painfully. 

Back in the darker regions of hell, Ghost Rider awakens to see a familiar sight in more ways than one. Earl Gustav, his skull on fire, zooms by on his wheelchair, screaming all the while. GR complains about having done what he was told, that he shouldn't be back in hell. Malachi appears and explains that no one, not even god, can save a lost soul from damnation. There was no way for him to be freed from hell, his promise was all a lie. Kazaan is now elsewhere in hell, nailed to the reefs of the Fetus-Sea. The angel tells the Spirit of Vengeance to take comfort in that. GR begins to threaten him, which Malachi finds empty boasting, until his wings are suddenly ripped off of his back by Ruth! Hoss is also there, and explains to GR that Kazaan was indeed telling the truth. He was once an angel named Micah, brother of Malachi, both the best and brightest of the host. Once war came to heaven, Micah joined Lucifer in rebelling and was banished. But he kept in touch with Malachi, meeting in limbo in secret. They used their knowledge combined to advance their places in heaven and hell promotion wise. Hoss & Ruth trailed GR back to hell, and waited for Malachi to pop up like the idiot he is. Anyway, to hunt out this mole by using GR as bait, Hoss and Ruth teamed-up, and now are in line for promotion of their own. Buttview drives up in the caddy, and Hoss offers Ruth a ride to the gates. Ghost Rider is very, very unhappy with being used as a pawn by pretty much everyone. He realizes angels & demons are all alike. Hoss would like to let GR go, but he can't. He does, however, leave him a present to make his time in hell a little more bearable. The three in the car drive off. 

As the mini began, it ends, the tale of Ghost Rider riding for his soul in hell every day, and always failing. But there's a new twist to the story, someone's with him, someone he hates so much that he's forcing him to suffer alongside him for all eternity. Who is this? Why, it's Malachi, drug along wrapped in chains, wingless, mostly fleshless, but still alive. It's hard to tell who screams loudest. 


Flashback: Two-panels showing Malachi and Micha when they were both angels, just before the fall. This predates their first appearances in the mini-series, obviously. 


Continuity notes: GR mentions he's been in hell for "two years" again, just to clarify. 

We learn Ms. Catmint's first name is "Jemima". 


Calendar notes: It's so black-skied at this point, there's no telling if it's night or not, but it's still the same day as the previous issues. As for the hell scenes, well, they're clearly relative. Malachi claims GR had a "few sweet hours of freedom". 

------------------------------------ 

The MCP related stuff (shouldn't demons and angels have some sort of notation, like is done for aliens?) 

GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
... 
(where's the GR:HL Wizard #1/2?) 
TB 57 
TB 58-BTS 
**GR4 01-FB 
**GR4 01 
**GR4 02 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 04 
**GR4 05 
**GR4 06 

MALACHI III 
**GR4 06-FB 
**GR4 01 
**GR4 02 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 05 
**GR4 06 

KAZAAN/MICAH 
**GR4 06-FB 
**GR4 01-BTS 
**GR4 02 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 04 
**GR4 05 
**GR4 06 

DANIEL 
**GR4 01 
**GR4 02 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 05 

HOSS 
**GR4 01 
**GR4 02-BTS 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 04 
**GR4 05 
**GR4 06 

BUTTVIEW 
**GR4 01 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 04 
**GR4 05 
**GR4 06 

RUTH 
**GR4 01 
**GR4 02-BTS 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 04 
**GR4 05 
**GR4 06 

GUSTAV, EARL 
**GR4 02 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 04 
**GR4 05 
**GR4 06 

CATMINT, JEMIMA 
**GR4 02 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 04 
**GR4 05 
**GR4 06 

FATHER ADAM 
**GR4 04-FB 
**GR4 03 
**GR4 04 
**GR4 05 
**GR4 06 
-------------------- 

Up next from me, the whole lot of "I (HEART) MARVEL" books. Yay, continuity for a change! 

JLH

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Posted: 01 May 2006 09:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Much obliged, JLH. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 28

Posted: 25 May 2006 10:30 pm    Post subject: Corrections to Calendar
By dubj1979

when i was looking at the calender in the h of m section inoticed this: 
HOUSE OF M #3 (16-22) 
Logan tries to look up Tony Stark at Stark Tower, but Logan's SHIELD unit (consisting of an altered Mystique, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Spider-Woman, and ??) confront him. He escapes but is swallowed up by Cloak and is transported to a place where he sees Cage, Hawkeye, and their allies, which include Black Cat, Iron Fist, and Moon Knight. 

I believe the ?? in the remarks is to be Toad. 
I'm pretty sure but correct me if I'm wrong 

Also since I am new at this will some one please tell me how to properly post this instead of just "Hey Paul" 
Like do I say "Corrections to Calender" or what? 

BTW: Paul you are the man for putting the time you do into this site. 
That goes for every one else to 


[title edited by Jeph!]

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Posted: 26 May 2006 07:36 am    
By jephyork
Director

Personally, I'd go with "House of M #3 - calendar clarification". Or, if you didn't feel like starting a new thread, you could find the old House of M thread and reply to it, and you wouldn't have to think of a thread title. Either way, thanks for the input! 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 06 Jun 2006 09:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 26 May 2006 06:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for identifying the Toad, dubj1979. And thanks for your kind remarks. 
_________________
Paul B.
	
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Posted: 26 May 2006 10:51 pm    
By dubj1979

No prob, If you need any help with any Analasis you hve the list of what I read on the other post so just give me a shout and I'll see if I can help.

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Posted: 29 May 2006 06:39 pm    
By JLH

Speaking of the calender, I notice you have "Venom vs Carnage" as taking place well after the whole MK:SM arc. But that's impossible. Venom's suit design isn't in the Scorpion mode in VvC, and Eddie Brock is mentioned by Spidey, not Mac Gargan. This was covered in my analysis last year, I thought...

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2006 08:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

You're right. I ended up plugging that whole VVC series into the wrong year. It needs to go somewhere between PPTSS2 5 [December 1] and M/KSM 6 (4-23) [the following September 6]. The question is...where exactly? We have some temporal clues like leafy trees and a full moon, but given that Spidey's in this series, does it make best sense in a specific spot in his chronology?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2006 04:58 am    
By Somebody

Does it even need to go after Jenkins' Hunger arc, or is that just a publication order thing?

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2006 10:01 pm    
By JLH

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Does it even need to go after Jenkins' Hunger arc, or is that just a publication order thing? 
<<<

Spidey clearly states that Venom "swallowed Eddie's soul". In the mini, it's the symbiote who's in control, which can only follow that arc. Of course, Eddie's back to normal and running the show in MKSM, so it can't go after that since that leads to Scorpion taking it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2006 08:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It sounds like Venom's chronology is fairly straightforward, but so we're clear here, can someone list the specific issue citations in chronological order? And we'll still need to figure out where in Spidey's chronology his appearances in VVC fit best.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 29

Posted: 29 Apr 2006 11:22 pm    Post subject: Question about What If..#77 (Legion Had Killed Magneto)
By wolframbane

For my X-Men timeline, I need to know exactly when Magnus and Magda escaped Auschwitz. In What If #77, Legion travelled back to just after they escaped. Unfortunately I do not have the issue anymore. Is there a reference as to the date (year, month, season?) of this in the issue? If not, is there any other issue that has the information. Thanks.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2006 09:58 am    
By Arthur

WI?2 77: 

first panel narrative: 

Quote: 
>>>
Deep in the wintry grasp of World War II. Eric Marnus Lehnsherr and his wife Magda wonder if their escape was pointless, if they are to freeze in this foreign woodland... 
<<<

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2006 11:08 am    
By wolframbane

Thanks Arthur. That helps me narrow it down immensely. It would have to be winter, but before Auschwitz was shut down (January 1945). I would guess either late December 1944, early January 1945 for their escape. And the reference to Magda being his wife indicates they were possibly married while at Auschwitz. 

Interestingly, General Thunderbolt Ross (from Hulk) was present at Auschwitz as well, during its iberation by the Russians in January 1945.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 May 2006 03:25 am    
By Enda80

Topical reference in Ross' case, probably timescaled out.

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Posted: 02 May 2006 09:09 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
the reference to Magda being his wife indicates they were possibly married while at Auschwitz. 
<<<

I'm pretty sure they got married well after escaping Auschwitz ... although I can't recall where I got that impression. The back-up story in Classic X-Men #12, maybe? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 05 May 2006 05:22 am    Post subject: Message from New Member
By andowhy

Hi, This is my first post and I'd like to start off by thanking everyone at MCP for the fantastic work you have provided for all to enjoy. I managed to stumble across the site a few months back but have only in the last few weeks realised what a great resource it is. 

I have been out of comics for quite some time (stopped around AoA due to work/moving/lifestyle etc) and was bitten by the comic bug late last year with the internet opening all sorts of collecting doors - ebay/forums etc, I have recently started collecting again. I was always a massive X-Men fan in my youth and have started collecting everything X once again. I have also started to branch into the other marvel titles and have used the resources here to great effect in placing my collection in proper chronological order. 

I am planning to start reading from X-Men 1 through to the present day but want to get the reading order as close to correct as I can before starting. I have about 30 or so titles I have been unable to place (whether by not being in continuity or just plain obscure) which I will post in the correct forum shortly. 

Just thought I'd say hi and thanks for the great resource you provide & I hope to be an active member in the community (as I catch up to the present date with my collection). 

Regards, 
Darren

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2006 06:01 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Welcome aboard, Darren. Glad you find this site useful. Look forward to future posts from you.  

Paul
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 31

Posted: 06 May 2006 03:40 am    Post subject: Emma Frost in X-Men: Deadly Genesis #5/2
By wolframbane

For my X-Calendar, I am trying to figure out the approximate age of Emma Frost so I can place certain events in her personal timeline. In X-Men: Deadly Genesis #5/2, Emma was depicted as an exotic dancer at the Hellfire Club, when Charles, Moira and Gabriel first met her in Year 8, when the Prof was recruiting a new team. Does anyone know the minimum age required to be an exotic dancer in New York (it 'may' be he same as drinking age, but I am unfamiliar wih NY laws). This way I can figure out the minimum possible age of Emma.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2006 03:46 am    
By JLH

Would that really matter? Emma's a telepath, she could just screw with the boss's brain and make him think she's older than she really is.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 11:18 am    
By Jason Doty

Well this probably takes place after or while she is in college, so 17 or 18, but like JLH says she could manipulate whoever she wishes. Also at the time Giant Size X-Men came out, I believe beer and wine could be legally purchased at the age of 18 and all beer,liquer, and wine can be served but not poured at the age of 18 in most places today.

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