	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Mister Sinister first appearance..?
2. Magneto and others in X:HY 21-22
3. Books of Doom framing sequence
4. Early Spiderman Chronology..
5. UX 374 spiderman bonus pages
6. The buzz on Swarm  
7. Official Handbook#5 notes
8. Deadly Genesis [DG3 & X-Men 181 SPOILERS]
9. Early Hercules
10. Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom GN
11. Should inanimate (but important) objects be kept track of?
12. X-men Read order guide
13. Eda Arul from War Machine now in MTIO#41
14. Code of Honor#3 question
15. Spider-man Mutant Agenda #0
16. Possible Calender Corrections for Paul
17. korvac quest
18. Marvel Team-Up 20
19. X -questions
20. Thunderbolts #103 captive villains
21. Days of Future Now #1/New Excalibur #9 [SPOILERS for both]
22. X Treme X-Men Savage Land
23. Paint your wagon, the western handbook
24. Fantastic Four / Fantastic 4 '98 (Annual)
25. Tales of the Thing
26. Condundrum of the Week: Black Panther
27. Mr. Sinister in UX 39/2 and UX 389
28. H2 160
29. updated spider-woman chronology
30. Magneto Chronology corrections

	Issue Analysis Forum
31. FCBD 2006 : X-Men/Runaways
32. Spider-Man in Venedig (Panini Comics)





Thread 1

Posted: 31 May 2006 04:46 pm    Post subject: Mister Sinister first appearance..?
By Mikhail

I heard somewhere that Sinister may have been the optometrist that gave Cyclops his original glasses. If that's true, would that be him in disguise in the backstory of UXM #39?

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2006 05:53 pm    
By rhod

Well, he's got the widow's peak, moustache and goatee. I could quite easily believe that's him.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2006 06:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's possible, but it's never been confirmed and it would amount to a retcon of the original story. On that basis, the MCP is assuming that it's not Sinister.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Posted: 02 Jun 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Magneto and others in X:HY 21-22
By Paul O'Brien
Director

X:HY 20-22 feature a belated tie-in with FF 102-104, in which Magneto joins forces with the Sub-Mariner to invade New York, and they fight the Fantastic Four. Magneto, Namor, Dorma and the FF, including Crystal, appear in the X:HY issues. 

As matters stand, however, most of these characters don't have a listing for X:HY 21-22. The exceptions are Reed and Ben, who are listed for X:HY 22. This can't be right, because X:HY 21 features an original scene of Magneto arguing with the astral projection of Professor X at the same time that he's capturing the Invisible Girl. Equally, Reed and Ben seem to be listed in X:HY 22 for a scene that also features the rest of the FF, who don't have a listing. 

Since I don't have the FF issues in question, can somebody suggest what the correct listings ought to be? I'd have thought that even if these were all repeated scenes, they ought to qualify for "concurrent" listings, given that they aren't flashbacks.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jun 2006 07:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's what I have for how the segments break down, complete with character appearances for each segment and some calendar notes. Brackets indicate BTS appearances. Hope this helps. 


FANTASTIC FOUR #102 (page 1-page 3, panel 4) 
(same rainy day as XMTHY 19; height of flu season; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic (as Reed Richards), Thing, Human Torch II (as Johnny Storm), Crystal, [Sub-Mariner] 

FANTASTIC FOUR #102 (page 3, panel 5-page 5, panel 3)/X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #12 (page 36, panel 1-page 38, panel 1) 
(same day as FF 102 pg. 1-3; early December) 
Sub-Mariner, Magneto 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #12 (page 38, panels 2-3) 
(same day as FF 102 pg. 3-5; must be early December) 
Sub-Mariner, Magneto 

FANTASTIC FOUR #102 (page 5, panel 4- page 8) 
(same day as XMTHY 19; two days after XMTHY 12 mid; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Tattletale (as Franklin Richards), Crystal, Sub-Mariner, Magneto 

FANTASTIC FOUR #102 (page 9-page 10, panel 1)/X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #20 (page 1-page 2, panel 2) 
(same day as FF 102 pg. 1-8; early December) 
Sub-Mariner, Magneto 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #20 (page 2, panel 3-page 13, panel 2) 
(same day as FF 102 pg. 9-10; a couple of days after XMTHY 16; must be early December) 
Professor X (as Charles Xavier), Cyclops II, Phoenix IV (as Marvel Girl), Beast, Iceman, Archangel (as Angel III), Teri Martin, Lucy Robinson, Mole Man 

FANTASTIC FOUR #102 (page 10, panel 2-page 20, panel 6) 
(same day as XMTHY 20 pg. 2-13; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal, Sub-Mariner, Magneto 

FANTASTIC FOUR #103 (page 1-page 6, panel 1) 
(same day as FF 102 pg. 10-20; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Tattletale (as Franklin Richards), Crystal 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #20 (page 13, panel 3-page 22) 
(same night as FF 103 pg. 1-6; full moon; must be early December) 
Professor X, Archangel (as Angel III), Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal, Teri Martin, Lucy Robinson, Mike Robinson, Bill VII, Magneto 

FANTASTIC FOUR #103 (page 6, panel 2-page 11, panel 5) 
(same night as XMTHY 20 pg. 13-22; green grass and trees at Whisper Hill must be topical; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Tattletale (as Franklin Richards), Crystal Agatha Harkness, Ebony, Sub-Mariner, Magneto, [Professor X] 

FANTASTIC FOUR #103 (page 11, panel 6)/X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #21 (page 1) 
(same night as FF 103 pg. 6-11; early December) 
Invisible Woman (Girl), Magneto, [Professor X] 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #21 (page 2, panels 1-2) 
(same night as FF 103, pg. 11, pn. 6; must be early December) 
Professor X, Magneto 

FANTASTIC FOUR #103 (page 12, panel 1-page 14, panel 2)/X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #21 (page 2, panel 3-page 3, panel 5) 
(same night as XMTHY 21 pg. 2, pn. 1-2; early December) 
Invisible Woman (Girl), Professor X, Magneto 

FANTASTIC FOUR #103 (page 14, panel 3-page 20, panel 5) 
(same night as FF 103 pg. 12-14; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Sub-Mariner, Dorma, Magneto 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #21 (page 4, panel 1-page 17, panel 4) 
(morning after FF 103 pg. 14-20; a school day; must be early December) 
Professor X, Cyclops II, Phoenix IV (as Marvel Girl), Beast, Iceman, Archangel (as Angel III), Havok, Polaris (as Magnetrix), Ikaris, Pixie, Teri Martin, Ashley Martin, Lucy Robinson, Mole Man 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (pages 1-11) 
(same day as XMTHY 21 pg. 4-17; according to OMITTA 2, this story occurs before Av 88; according to MCI 7B, this story occurs before SM 31; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal, Sub-Mariner, Dorma, Magneto 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #21 (page 18, panel 1-page 22, panel 1) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 1-11; must be early December) 
Professor X, Havok 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 12) 
(same day as XMTHY 21 pg. 18-22; early December) 
Invisible Woman (Girl), Dorma, Magneto, [Sub-Mariner], [Professor X] 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 13, panel 1-page 14, panel 1)/X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #21 (page 22, panels 2-3) 
(same day asFF 104 pg. 12; early December) 
Invisible Woman (Girl), Sub-Mariner, Professor X, Dorma, Magneto 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 14, panel 2-page 15, panel 1)/X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #22 (pages 1-2) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 13-14; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 15, panels 2-6) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 14-15; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Thing, Crystal 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 16, panel 1)/X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #22 (page 3, panels 1-2) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 15, pn. 2-6; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Crystal 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 16, panel 2) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 16, pn. 1; early December) 
[Crystal] 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #22 (page 3, panels 3-5) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 16, pn. 2; must be early December) 
Professor X, Mr. Fantastic 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 16, panel 3-page 17, panel 1) 
(same day as XMTHY 22 pg. 3, pn. 3-5; early December) 
Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #22 (page 4, panel 1-page 7, panel 3) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 16-17; must be early December) 
Cyclops II, Phoenix IV (as Marvel Girl), Beast, Iceman, Archangel (as Angel III), Mole Man 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 17, panel 2)/X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #22 (page 7, panel 4) 
(same day as XMTHY 22 pg. 4-7; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, [Professor X] 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #22 (page 8, panels 1-2) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 17, pn. 2; must be early December) 
Professor X, Mr. Fantastic 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 17, panel 3-page 20, panel 4)/X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #22 (page 8, panel 2-page 11, panel 4) 
(same day as XMTHY 22 pg. 8, pn. 1-2; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal, Sub-Mariner, Professor X, Dorma, Magneto 

FANTASTIC FOUR #104 (page 20, panel 5) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 17-20; early December) 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal 

X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS #22 (page 11, panel 4-page 20, panel 3) 
(same day as FF 104 pg. 17-18 and the next morning; one week before XMTHY 22 pg. 20-22; green grass and trees in Dunfee, Illinois must be topical; must be early December) 
Professor X, Cyclops II, Phoenix IV (as Marvel Girl), Beast, Iceman, Archangel (as Angel III), Havok, Polaris (as Lorna Dane), Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal, Teri Martin, Ashley Martin, Lucy Robinson, Tad Carter, Simon, Craig, Gene, Tobias Messenger
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2006 05:58 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Thanks, Paul!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Posted: 01 Jun 2006 06:53 pm    Post subject: Books of Doom framing sequence
By Somebody

So, where does this go. Apparently, "Doom" in these is a Doombot which has malfunctioned to think it's Doom (like the one the real Doom blew up, bar the head, in FF350). In addition, Boris is alive and in [the] Doom[bot]'s service. 

That give any clues?

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jun 2006 02:26 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If the whole series is flashbacks narrated by a robot who wasn't actually there, wouldn't that cast doubt on the validity of any of the flashbacks? At best, it's hearsay filtered through Doom's extremely warped perspective on events. 

I'd be inclined to ignore the whole thing aside from the framing sequence, which doesn't feature any recurring characters anyway.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jun 2006 04:38 am    
By JD

Well, there is some heavy-handed dialog to try to push the point that the flashbacks are genuine.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2006 07:20 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

The framing sequence is pretty much irrelevant because the only people that appear are the Doombot, the reporter, and that administrator. Offhand, I don't think they have any appearances of note to work in the chronologies. 

As far as the flashbacks are concerned, it's noted that the Doombot shares all of Doom's own memories and that interviewing a Doombot that thinks he himself is Doom is as good as interviewing Doom himself. 

They really went out of their way to ensure that this is to be treated as the definitive history of Doom. I'll go into details when I do the Issue Analyses.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 04 Jun 2006 11:38 pm    Post subject: Early Spiderman Chronology..
By TrueBeliever

I am a big spidey fan who is trying to create an outline of Spideys early career, specifically his high school and undergraduate days. Assuming that Peter Parker is a Sophomore when he is bitten by the radioactive spider I figure that Amazing Fantasy 15 thru to Amazing Spiderman 185 (the college graduation issue) take place over a span of roughly seven years. Has anyone worked out which issues take place in which year of spideys academic career? 
Thanks!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2006 07:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hi, Truebeliever. 

Using the Official Marvel Indexes as a guide, here are the ranges of issues featuring Spidey (from his listing here in the MCP) for each academic year, starting with AAF 15: 

HIGH SCHOOL 
sophomore -- thru WOSM 81-FB 
summer -- ASM 1 - ASM 1/2 
junior -- ASM 2 - XF 139-FB 
summer -- ST@ 2 - ASM 6 
senior -- UTSM 1 - ASM 28 
summer -- ASM@ 2 - ASM 30 

COLLEGE 
freshman -- ASM 31 - ASM 61 
summer -- ASM 62 - ASM@ 5 
sophomore -- ASM 62 - M/TU 2 
summer -- ASM 100 - ASM 105 
junior -- M/TU 3 - A 118 
summer -- M/TU 14 - M/TU 15 
junior make-up year -- ASM 127 - ASM 135 
summer -- M/TU 24 - ASM 140 
senior -- GS-SM 3 - ASM 152 

Hope this helps.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Posted: 05 Jun 2006 02:10 pm    Post subject: UX 374 spiderman bonus pages
By frogcoin

hi, i was wondering about the bonus pages of spiderman i was reading in UX 374, 375, 376, where should they fit in the spider man chronology and under what name are they added. 

that was a mini comic set in 4 parts (374, 375, 376, dunno where is the last part) where spiderman fights mysterio. 

thanks in advance.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2006 03:45 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I presume those are the "Fast Lane" anti-drug inserts which appeared in every Marvel comic that month. (It teaches such important anti-drugs lessons as "Don't reach for your bong while dangling in a van suspended from an electromagnetic crane by a crazed supervillain, because you might fall out.") 

As far as I know, we're treating them as out of continuity.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2006 07:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I don't really see any reason why MARVEL COMICS' FAST LANE can't be canonical. I went ahead and assigned the four-part story to a day just prior to the start of the posted calendar -- between ASM '00 and PPSM2 16. Placement is based very generally on publication date and available calendar space. But if there's an established litmus test that FAST LANE fails to pass to be considered in continuity, someone speak up.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2006 11:13 am    
By garbonzo

I know a lot of the problem surrounding this story originated with the fact that Mysterio had just died in Daredevil, then he mysteriously (no pun intended) appears just fine at the same time in this story. I think the problem lies that the projects were developed independently, the Mysterio death in Daredevil came as a surprise to the Marvel-central office (Marvel Knights was opperating quasi-independently at the time), and Daredevil was painfully late. I think that as long as the Spidey drug story takes place before the Daredevil issues, there is no real reason why it can't be cannon. 

the one I am curious about is the story where Spidy hangs out with JayLeno. The story takes place in much the same way - backup story spread over a couple of issues. That one smells a lot fishier as Jay Leno is quite the stud in the comic! 

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 12:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Are we talking about the same Mysterio in both MCFL 1-4 and DD2 7-8?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 12:49 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, from memory, the "plot" of Fast Lane hinges on Mysterio's past as a movie special effects guy. (And boy, there's a gimmick that's 15 years past its sell-by date.) So unless I'm very much mistaken, that would require the original Mysterio.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 09:18 pm    
By garbonzo

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Are we talking about the same Mysterio in both MCFL 1-4 and DD2 7-8? 
<<<

yep. I know there is a Mysterio II listed in the project, but there is nothing in either of the stories to indicate that it is the "new" Mysterio. 

garbonzo 
sneaking up on that 100th post!!!

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 12:02 am    Post subject: The buzz on Swarm
By JLH

Why does the MCP list Swarm as appearing in SENSM before SECDEF, when the chronologies of every other character in both sets of issues make such a thing impossible? I don't recall him time traveling...

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 01 Jun 2006 05:26 pm    Post subject: Official Handbook#5 notes
By Enda80

Hate-Monger: Sadly, this entry skipped over his previous life. That said, it does state that he was the same entity as the one from Jurgens' Cap run. By the way, there was no fb in FF I#21 that I am aware of. Therefore: 

HATE-MONGER/ADOLF HITLER/"ADAM HAUSER" 
From Adolf Hitler 
SVTU 17-FB 
{FF 21} 
NFAOS 9 
NFAOS 10 
NFAOS 11 
COTL 34-BTS 
COTL 35 
SVTU 12-BTS 
SVTU 16-FB 
CA 208 
CA 209 
CA 210 
CA 211 
CA 212 
CA 226-BTS 
CA 227-BTS 
SVTU 16 
SVTU 17 
CA 299 
CA 446-FB 
CA 445-BTS 
CA 446 
CA 447 
CA 448 
CA3 25 
CA3 26 
CA3 27 
CA3 45 
CA3 46 
CA3 47 
CA3 48 

Gorilla Man: that What If I#9 story left up in the air. Refers to an incarnation of Merlin. 

Grandmaster: Confirms Ultraverse and Krona adventures 

Jonas Harrow: His work on Hammerhead took place over two decades ago-thus accomadting Hammerhead's dealings with Crusher Hogan 

Hellbent: Has Thoth's dealings with them appeared anywhere? 

High Evolutionary: Phaeder confirmed as being in his origin. Reference to the Melmacians. 

Huntara: Confirmed as Tara Richards 

Hyperion: helpful notes on various Hyperions 

Immortus: Pope Immortus left vague 

Mad Jim Jaspers: His X-Men I#200 appearance left open. My, how bold they used to act in resolving danglers. 

Jester: the other Jester's 1992 Year-In-Review appearance treated as canon

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2006 06:55 pm    
By Somebody

Perhaps they've realised that no writer gives a dingo's kidneys about what the HB says, and will contradict it quite merrily if they notice the same dangler and feel like addressing it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jun 2006 03:15 am    
By loki

Actually, it was more to do with the fact that Chris Claremont likes to do sub-plots over decades, and with the recent revival of Jaspers theres a chance that particular dangler is going to get addressed, and we don't want to spoiler it. We knew last year that Jamie Braddock had revived his sister, but since that would spoil a future plotline to say as much, when I wrote the Psylocke entry for the X-Men 2005 Handbook, I left it up in the air.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jun 2006 04:55 pm    
ShadZ

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Gorilla Man: that What If I#9 story left up in the air. Refers to an incarnation of Merlin. 
<<<

Pre-releae publicity for Agents of Atlas has made it clear that What If? I#9 did not happen in Earth-616, but something very similar did. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
High Evolutionary: Phaeder confirmed as being in his origin. Reference to the Melmacians.  
<<<

ALF? Really?
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2006 05:06 pm    
By Enda80

High Ev was in Alf Annual#1. I kid you not.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2006 06:49 pm    
By JLH

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
High Ev was in Alf Annual#1. I kid you not. 
<<<

Anyone who reads the FAQ here at MCP knows this.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 11:27 am    
By JD

It seems that this Handbook has a few spoilers for YOUNG AVENGERS #12. Oups.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 01:21 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

YOUNG AVENGERS #12 is running horrendously late, so you can't really blame the HANDBOOK. (To be honest, it was a bit of a giveaway when they didn't include a "Bishop, Kate" entry.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 05:34 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Is that a spoiler? It's certainly borderline... *tsk* 

It is indeed ridiculous how late Young Avengers 12 is running though...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 08:30 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, at the very least it was a clear signal that she was getting a proper codename which didn't start with A or B...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 07:50 am    Post subject: Deadly Genesis [DG3 & X-Men 181 SPOILERS]
By Somebody

Oh dear. 

Even without the retcon-flashbacks (which may or may not cleanly fit - the Xavier/Corsair one looks suspicious to me), the present day sequences include a major problem. Havok and Polaris are both around (and in costume), and they both quit/are fired at the end of the Sentinel-intro arc in X-Men. Now the Sentinels are well-established here as far as the X-Men are concerned, so it can't be between M-Day and House Arrest - and it can't be "after they rejoin," because although Havok's probably heading back to the Mansion at the end of XM181, Polaris is abducted by Apocalypse's Sphinx. 

I think this one might need a crowbar.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 09:05 am    
By Jason Doty

Is there room for a break before they leave when Cyclops kinda begs them not to leave over in the X-Men book?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2006 11:02 am    
By Mikhail

It's possible. The transition from #179 to #180 has a "next day" feel, not a "later that day" feel -- everyone is in new clothes, etc. Havok is very upset over Scott being missing in #2, so if Scott, Logan, and Rachel's mission occurs the evening of the day Alex and Lorna quit, they could be sticking around to make sure Cyclops is alright, and Havok's attitude problem could be seen as his desire to leave conflicting with his love of his brother. Iceman is seen in his "craggly" look in #3, and Lorna hasn't shown any use of her powers. If she still hasn't by the end of the series, Deadly Genesis could potentially be shoehorned in between #179 and #180.

			*	*	*

Inserting a break between issues #179-180 seems viable. They declare their intention to leave in issue #179, they make arrangements, and then they leave some time later in issue #180.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2006 12:11 pm    
By Somebody

And again - Briggs is killed in DG5 and explicitly shown and IDed in XM183. In the course of which, of course, all the "standard" Sentinels are destroyed by Apocalypse and Gazer/War.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2006 12:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, since we didn't explicitly see Briggs die on-panel in X #183, I guess we should assume that he survived, and that X:DG occurs after "Blood of Apocalypse". 

Lorna's presence in X:DG shouldn't be a problem, because previews for Ed Brubaker's upcoming UXM run show her as a team member again. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2006 12:51 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Well, since we didn't explicitly see Briggs die on-panel in X #183, I guess we should assume that he survived, and that X:DG occurs after "Blood of Apocalypse". 
<<<

But the Sentinels are gone as of BOA, and the Mark Brooks-designed replacements (see the XM186 cover for one, apparently they all look different) don't look anything like them. 

Besides, Briggs & co are being court-marshalled for deserting their Sentinels... 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Lorna's presence in X:DG shouldn't be a problem, because previews for Ed Brubaker's upcoming UXM run show her as a team member again. 
<<<

In a new costume (very like her original). Not the Larroca-tweaked version of her Asamanga costume that we saw her in in DG.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2006 02:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, can you suggest another explanation for how Briggs could die in X:DG, then appear in Blood of Apocalypse? IMO, it's easier to explain the return of a piece of technology than it is to explain how a guy randomly came back to life. Besides, BoA isn't over yet -- we don't know for a fact that the original-model Sentinels will never make a return. 

As for Lorna's costume, there's nothing stopping her from returning to the team in her Larroca costume, appearing in X:DG, then changing her outfit just before Brubaker's upcoming UXM run. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2006 03:44 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, it looks like this story is going to have to be shunted back after "Blood of Apocalypse", however awkward that may be.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Apr 2006 07:19 pm    
By Chrisday

something that may be important regarding this problem... or maybe not... going backwards in chronological order: 

Blood of Apocalypse' in X-men has to take place after Cable & Deadpool #26-27. 

Cable & Deadpool # 25 takes place after New Thunderbolts 13 and 14. 

New Thunderbolts 13 is six weeks after New Thunderbolts 12 

New Thunderbolts 12 is (approx) 10 days after M-Day 



therefore New Thunderbolts 13-14 (where the thunderbolts fight the new avengers) is approx. to Eight weeks after M-Day, followed soon after by Cable & Deadpool 25 and then 26-27, and then X-men 181 when Apocalypse appears with the Egyptologist, and then X-men 182 onwards (blood of apocalypse) 

note: 
x-men 177-179 are all on M-Day 

X-men 180 starts 1 or maybe 2 days after M-day (Deadly genesis could possibly occur inbetween X-men 179 and 180 ???) and Havok and polaris leave in 180 page 6. page 7 is three weeks later. inbetween pages 9 and 10 could easily be another break of several weeks which is followed by the lead up to blood of apoclypse...

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Apr 2006 12:39 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't think "Blood of Apocalypse" OR "Deadly Genesis" have any specific reference in them to how long it's been since M-Day. 

Right now, I still think the strongest placement evidence we have is Briggs' appearance in X #183, and his death in X:DG. Also, for what it's worth, Prof. X isn't around in "Blood of Apocalypse", and it looks like he returns to the X-Men in X:DG. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Apr 2006 08:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I don't think "Blood of Apocalypse" OR "Deadly Genesis" have any specific reference in them to how long it's been since M-Day.  
<<<

Au contraire. On page 1 of X: DG 1, Beast notes that "last week" there were millions of mutants. Obviously, that's a temporal reference that will need to be ignored. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2006 02:51 pm    
By Jason Doty

After reading the finale to Deadly Genesis I'm thinking that this series will be placed between the transition points of both Uncanny and X-Men that are coming up with the new writers. I don't believe we need to shoehorn this in between pages any longer, does anyone think we will still have to or is it just a matter of ignoring one reference of the passage of time?

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2006 03:50 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The opening two pages of X:DG 1 can be split off, though. That scene can be placed shortly after the Sentinels arrive, without any real difficulties.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2006 10:17 am    
By Somebody

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
After reading the finale to Deadly Genesis I'm thinking that this series will be placed between the transition points of both Uncanny and X-Men that are coming up with the new writers. I don't believe we need to shoehorn this in between pages any longer, does anyone think we will still have to or is it just a matter of ignoring one reference of the passage of time? 
<<<

Well, it forces the series into a very narrow gap (between Spidey getting the "Iron Spider" costume - which he appears in in BoA; and the Collective crashing to Earth in NAv). If that fits though, should work.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2006 03:50 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Why before the Collective? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2006 08:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Why before the Collective?  
<<<

Not to speak for somebody, but I suspect it has something to do with "all that energy" released from M-Day that is seen on page 2 of Deadly Genesis #1. 


Quote: 
>>>
Spidey getting the "Iron Spider" costume - which he appears in in BoA 
<<<

I must've missed something...in which issue of X does Iron Spidey appear? 


Quote: 
>>>
The opening two pages of X:DG 1 can be split off, though. 
<<<

The first two pages, or just the first page with the Beast's dialog balloon on page 2?
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 17 May 2006 05:44 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 03:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The placement of the Collective storyline is (unsurprisingly) rather garbled. Here's the basic situation, as I see it:- 

1. According to NEW AVENGERS #18, the Collective is somebody empowered by all the energies removed from mutants on M-Day. 

2. Therefore it's after the opening two pages of X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #1, which show Beast wondering what happened to all that energy. But those two pages can easily be split off from the rest of the story, so that's not a problem. (In the wider scheme of things, the story has to happen several weeks after M-Day since, due to the presence of Polaris and the death of a member of Sentinel Squad O*N*E, it can't happen until after the current X-MEN storyline.) 

3. NEW AVENGERS #11-14 were the Ronin storyline and end with the Avengers deciding that they have to go public. However, they evidently don't have the press conference immediately, because they go ahead and announce it in advance, and other characters are able to show up. So in fact, NEW AVENGERS #14 just ends with them *deciding* to go public, but there's a break before they actually do. 

4. NEW AVENGERS #15 is the press conference itself. NEW AVENGERS #16 is apparently the next day, since Maria Hill says she saw the press conference on TV that night. That scene leads directly into the red alert from the Collective's crash-land in Alaska, after which the story runs continuously through to NEW AVENGERS #18. So there are no obvious breaks between NEW AVENGERS #15-18, save for a few hours between issues #15-16 which can't accommodate any other stories. 

5. Spider-Man is in his normal costume in NEW AVENGERS #15, but his Iron Spider costume in NEW AVENGERS #17-18. (He doesn't appear in isuse #16.) This isn't necessarily a contradiction because we know it can change appearance and, in SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN, he's been expressly shown using this ability. 

6. However, if this story takes place after Spider-Man gets that costume then, logically, it's also after the Civil War prologue arc in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (except for the last couple of pages with the Stamford disaster, which can be plausibly hived off) and it's also after "The Other", a storyline which takes a considerable amount of time. 

7. But this conflicts with dialogue in NEW AVENGERS. In issue #16, Hill says that the Avengers and X-Men's trip to Genosha in HOUSE OF M #1 was "last week." In issue #18, Spider-Man expresses surprise at the suggestion that the new Avengers have any files or records, and says they've only been together "a couple of weeks." He might be exaggerating slightly, but it's clearly not a well-established group. 

8. The editors have obviously noticed this problem, since the recap pages on issues #17-18 state - in plain defiance of the story itself - that HOUSE OF M was "months ago." This is clearly not Bendis' intention. 

Two possible solutions occur to me. One is to disregard the Iron Spider costume as a continuity error, which would allow the story to take place in the time frame Bendis wants it to. I find this rather appealing. The costume is the only problem and it's not relevant to the plot. HOUSE OF M, on the other hand, is central to the story. 

The other approach is to shoehorn a highly artificial gap somewhere into issue #16. The only obvious candidate is to yank out the scene with Iron Man and Maria Hill and claim that she's going off to answer some other "red alert" at the end of the scene. There follows an extended gap during which "The Other" and other Avengers stories take place, before the Collective falls to earth and the story resumes on the next page with Maria Hill answering THAT "red alert." This is ludicrously artificial but might just about work.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 06:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The other approach is to shoehorn a highly artificial gap somewhere into issue #16. The only obvious candidate is to yank out the scene with Iron Man and Maria Hill and claim that she's going off to answer some other "red alert" at the end of the scene. There follows an extended gap during which "The Other" and other Avengers stories take place, before the Collective falls to earth and the story resumes on the next page with Maria Hill answering THAT "red alert." This is ludicrously artificial but might just about work. 
<<<

This solution occurred to me. I've been resisting using it because that red alert is so clearly supposed to be about the Collective. However, if Marvel continues to mess up continuity, then we're just going to have to ignore the writers' intentions in some cases to make things work. Regrettable, but necessary. 

Reviewing all the stories that need to occur after A4 15, I come up with the following (aside from "the Other" story arc), either because the new team is out in public or because the Watchtower spires appear on Stark Tower. 

NEW AVENGERS GUEST-STARRING THE FANTASTIC FOUR 
SENTRY v2 #1-8 
PULSE #11-13 
AMAZING FANTASY v2 #13 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #24 (page 21) 
DAREDEVIL v2 #76 
TARGET PRESENTS: READING TO THE RESCUE #3 
FANTASTIC FOUR SPECIAL #1 
NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1 -FB (pages 12-13) 

In that last scene, Iron Man meets with Maria Hill and discusses the Hulk's Las Vegas rampage from FF 533-535. The Hulk likely appears in FF 533-535 after he appears in FNSM 2, which is part of the Other storyline. And if we place the Other after A4 15, then NA:I 1-FB (12-13) must occur after A4 15. Iron Man's chat with Maria Hill in A4 16 about the Avengers going public should occur before Iron Man's and Maria's discussion in NA:I 1-FB (12-13). This is another argument for creating that gap in A4 16.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 09:14 am    
By jephyork
Director

How about a big gap between House of M and A4 #11? The Avengers' "going public" isn't that big a deal -- they've been on the front page of papers since A4 #7, prior to M-Day. The press conference in #15 is more to become "official", explain that Stark Tower is their new base and to explain the wacky spires that just appeared, right? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 09:25 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Quote: 
>>>
How about a big gap between House of M and A4 #11?  
<<<

That would conflict with NEW AVENGERS #16, where Maria Hill tells us unequivocally that HOUSE OF M was "last week." 

Obviously something's got to give here, but I'm inclined to keep that reference if we can, because it's a clear indication of authorial intent on Bendis' part. This is one reason why I'm leaning towards simply ignoring Spider-Man's costume as an art error. 

Come to think of it, here's a couple of things for people to think about. Leaving aside editorial statements:- 

1. Is there any actual in-story reason why "The Other" has to follow HOUSE OF M? 

2. Is there any actual in-story reason why NEW AVENGERS #11-14 have to follow HOUSE OF M (bearing in mind that the story already allows for some gap between issues #14-15)?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 10:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

Wait, there's someone out there who still puts ANY stock in a Bendis Temporal Reference? 

When I'm constructing chronologies, those are the FIRST thing to go. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 07:18 pm    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The placement of the Collective storyline is (unsurprisingly) rather garbled. Here's the basic situation, as I see it:- 
<<<

1. According to NEW AVENGERS #18, the Collective is somebody empowered by all the energies removed from mutants on M-Day. 

2. Therefore it's after the opening two pages of X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #1, which show Beast wondering what happened to all that energy. But those two pages can easily be split off from the rest of the story, so that's not a problem. (In the wider scheme of things, the story has to happen several weeks after M-Day since, due to the presence of Polaris and the death of a member of Sentinel Squad O*N*E, it can't happen until after the current X-MEN storyline.) 

Paul B's right in thinking I was talking about the big glob of energy that becomes The Collective - but you miss that it hits Vulcan just after that to wake him up/power him up/etc, which leads directly into the main plot and so can't be hived off. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
5. Spider-Man is in his normal costume in NEW AVENGERS #15, but his Iron Spider costume in NEW AVENGERS #17-18. (He doesn't appear in isuse #16.) This isn't necessarily a contradiction because we know it can change appearance and, in SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN, he's been expressly shown using this ability. 
<<<

Actually, if you mean the sequence just before he goes to see Madame Web, he's shown changing (in art & dialogue) from a cloth suit into the Spider-Armour. Apart from the ASM sequence, the only place I've seen it expressly used is Thing #6,where Ben gives Peter $20 to "turn it off".

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 May 2006 09:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
NEW AVENGERS GUEST-STARRING THE FANTASTIC FOUR 
SENTRY v2 #1-8 
PULSE #11-13 
AMAZING FANTASY v2 #13 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #24 (page 21) 
DAREDEVIL v2 #76 
TARGET PRESENTS: READING TO THE RESCUE #3 
FANTASTIC FOUR SPECIAL #1 
NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI #1 -FB (pages 12-13) 
<<<

I should add IRON MAN: THE INEVITABLE #5 (19) to that list of post-A415 stories, since the Watchtower appears there. Also worth noting is that Spidey appears in classic costume in many of the comics in this list. This appears to support a gap between the Iron Man/Maria Hill scene in A4 16 and The Other, which would then occur before the rest of A4 16. 


Quote: 
>>>
Is there any actual in-story reason why NEW AVENGERS #11-14 have to follow HOUSE OF M (bearing in mind that the story already allows for some gap between issues #14-15)? 
<<<

Hmm...shouldn't A4 11-14 have to occur before HOUSE OF M? Didn't we conclude that Silver Samurai appears in ROGUE3 7-12 after A4 11-14? And doesn't ROGUE3 7-12 occur before HOM? 


Quote: 
>>>
NEW AVENGERS #11-14 were the Ronin storyline and end with the Avengers deciding that they have to go public. However, they evidently don't have the press conference immediately, because they go ahead and announce it in advance, and other characters are able to show up. So in fact, NEW AVENGERS #14 just ends with them *deciding* to go public, but there's a break before they actually do. NEW AVENGERS #15 is the press conference itself. 
<<<

But in A4 14, Tony calls a press conference for "four o'clock" to explain the whole Watchtower appearance and formally introduce the team. So you're saying that for some reason that press conference gets called off for what could be weeks to allow a bunch of other stories to occur between A4 14 and 15? 


Quote: 
>>>
Is there any actual in-story reason why "The Other" has to follow HOUSE OF M? 
<<<

The last installment of the other is ASM 528, in which Peter has no costume and Stark is making him version 1.0 of the Iron Spidey outfit. In ASM 529, that outfit is unveiled, and I'm under the impression that Peter has no adventures between ASM 528 and 529 as there's no costume to use. ASM 529 segues into NA:I, in which the Illuminati discuss the Super Hero Registration Act, which postdates HOM. So I'm inclined to place HOM (in which Spidey appears in his classic costume) before The Other. 

I wonder if HOM should be added to the period between the Stark/Hill scene in A4 16 and The Other.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2006 05:30 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Paul B's right in thinking I was talking about the big glob of energy that becomes The Collective - but you miss that it hits Vulcan just after that to wake him up/power him up/etc, which leads directly into the main plot and so can't be hived off. 
<<<

Fair point. But do we necessarily see that Vulcan IMMEDIATELY wakes, and if so, do we see that he IMMEDIATELY comes to Earth? Might take a while for the effects to take hold.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2006 05:34 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Hmm...shouldn't A4 11-14 have to occur before HOUSE OF M? Didn't we conclude that Silver Samurai appears in ROGUE3 7-12 after A4 11-14? And doesn't ROGUE3 7-12 occur before HOM? 
<<<

From memory, I believe the HANDBOOK takes the opposite view, and in any event, the Silver Samurai is back acting as a government bodyguard in WOLVERINE soon after. So his sequence of actions makes no sense whichever way you look at it. 


Quote: 
>>>
But in A4 14, Tony calls a press conference for "four o'clock" to explain the whole Watchtower appearance and formally introduce the team. So you're saying that for some reason that press conference gets called off for what could be weeks to allow a bunch of other stories to occur between A4 14 and 15? 
<<<

Yup. They're busy people, and a break has to be shoehorned into this storyline somewhere. The press conference itself unambiguously takes place after HOUSE OF M and just before the Collective hits Earth. 


Quote: 
>>>
The last installment of the other is ASM 528, in which Peter has no costume 
<<<

Not quite. They expressly say that he has one costume left.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2006 06:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Not quite. They expressly say that he has one costume left. 
<<<

I presume, then, that it can take a while for Stark to finish the Iron Spidey outfit, and that Spidey can be seen in that one remaining classic costume in a number of places between ASM 528 and 529, and further, that this is the cloth costume that Peter dons (for some odd reason) in SENSATIONAL #23 after he gets the Iron Spidey outfit . This the the cloth costume that gets torn in SENSATIONAL #24 before Peter changes out of it and into his Iron Spidey outfit in SENSATIONAL #25. 

Time to go back to the drawing board... 


Quote: 
>>>
I must've missed something...in which issue of X does Iron Spidey appear?  
<<<

To answer my own question...in X 186, out this week. This is going to require some re-thinking, too. 

Ugh.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 10:06 pm    
By Somebody

New glitch, albeit not as big - looking over DG6 again, the funeral scene has Siryn crying, and Quicksilver (or Magneto, but that's even less likely) behind. Now, PAD got rather annoyed when he found out about Siryn, not least since he played it in exactly the opposite way to her crying in DG6. And according to the XF8 preview, the X-Men are actively attempting to hunt Quicksilver down, presumably to stop him spilling the truth about M-Day, and Siryn's certainly not talking in a way suggesting they've seen Cyclops (& co) since XF7. 

No, it's not Rachel S - hair's too long.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 10:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Gap in DG #6, to accomodate XF3 #7-8? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 07:04 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Gap in DG #6, to accomodate XF3 #7-8?  
<<<

Precisely. There's "one week" between pages 24 and 25 of X:DG 6 that should accommodate XF3 7-8. We'll have to wait and see how that squares with the Pietro story line.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 08:33 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Bear in mind that X-FACTOR #7-8 are also Civil War tie-ins, which may preclude them taking place between pages of Deadly Genesis #6. Provisionally, my attitude would be that Siryn evidently does turn up to the funeral, whatever her attitude may be more generally. As for Pietro, well, if he can't be there, he's not there. He's a minor figure in a non-speaking part in the background of a panel, so it's no great loss if he has to be disregarded.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 12:05 pm    Post subject: Early Hercules
By SKleefeld
Director

I was just re-reading Thing #7 and was thinking about Hercules' placement in it. 

Herc is wearing the Nemean Lion skin and the sculptor seems to be depicting the slaying of the Lernaean Hydra, suggesting this occurs shortly after those events. The "historical" Hercules (that is, the Hecules of legend in our world, not the MU version) lived in the 1200s BC. To my knowledge, Marvel has never really contradicted that notion at all and I think it's relatively safe to assume that the MU Hercules' Twelve Labors occurred during that century as they would have in classical literature. 

However, the Venus de Milo was created around 130 BC, roughly 1,000 years later. Well, Herc is an immortal so that's no problem from that perspective. 

So his appearance here occurs before the Asgardian-Olypian War. As near as I've been able to determine (I don't have Thor Annual #5 to verify dates) that occurs sometime around 1,000 AD -- quite obviously a substantial time later than when the Venus de Milo was created.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 02:39 pm    
By Enda80

Thor Annual#5, per Thor I#300, involved time travel, since the worship and heyday of the viking Odinists was at about 1000 CE, while the passing of the Theodosian Code by Tyrannus' Roman Catholic ancestor Theodosius, which proscribed the worship of the Olympian gods and saw their temples destroyed, was around the year 400 CE; so there were no Olympian polytheists left (well, on Earth-616 there were those New Crete people that Shanna the She-Devil met, maybe those Romans hidden in Ethiopia that the Challeneger met, and Nova Roma in South America, recently reaffirmed as not a hoax by Selene. Have I missed any other hidden societies of classical Greco-Roman themed societies out there?). 

"Hercules is the son of Zeus, king of the gods of Olympus, and Alcmena, a mortal woman who lived about three thousand years ago. " 

From the official Handbook.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 05:38 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Thor Annual#5, per Thor I#300, involved time travel, since the worship and heyday of the viking Odinists was at about 1000 CE, while the passing of the Theodosian Code by Tyrannus' Roman Catholic ancestor Theodosius, which proscribed the worship of the Olympian gods and saw their temples destroyed, was around the year 400 CE; so there were no Olympian polytheists left (well, on Earth-616 there were those New Crete people that Shanna the She-Devil met, maybe those Romans hidden in Ethiopia that the Challeneger met, and Nova Roma in South America, recently reaffirmed as not a hoax by Selene. Have I missed any other hidden societies of classical Greco-Roman themed societies out there?). 
<<<

I appreciate the heads-up about those Thor stories. That confirms that Herc's appearance in Thing #7 is before Thor Annual #5. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
"Hercules is the son of Zeus, king of the gods of Olympus, and Alcmena, a mortal woman who lived about three thousand years ago. " 
<<<

Which argueably confirms that the 1200s BC would be about right, and Herc's Twelve Labors occurred considerably earlier than Thing #7.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 10:57 am    
By Enda80

The soldiers Hercules led against Thor were plucked from the past. I suppose Hercules could have been in his native time in that story.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 10:58 am    
By Enda80

The soldiers Hercules led against Thor were plucked from the past. That was the native temporal counterpart of Hercules from 1000 CE, though. 
This is not clear from the original story, but was revealed in Thor I#300 or thereabouts. 

Post-Hyborian stories referencing the Asgardians: Doctor Strange III#37 establishes that Odin as "Wode" was worshipped as far back as about 1 BCE by the Franks, while Savage Sword of Conan#103/2 or #102/2 has a northerner invoke Thor in pre-Arthurian Britain. However, the Vikings rose to their greater prominence later, and Thomas probably wanted to tie that story in with the Celestials saga (see below). 

Anyway, as Zeus's handbook entry states: 

"A millennium ago Zeus' son Hercules led a band of warriors he had transported through time from ancient Greece to battle Norsemen who were under the protection of the Asgardian god Thor. This conflict led to war between the Asgardians and Olympians. Zeus secretly met with Odin, ruler of the Asgardians, and the two gods not only put an end to the war, but also formed an alliance to defend Earth from danger posed by the alien Celestials. Odin and Zeus met with the heads of the other races of gods who were or had been worshipped by Earth mortals to discuss the Celestials' possible threat to Earth, and then Odin, Zeus, and the Hindu god Brahma went to confront the Third Host of the Celestials on behalf of all of Earth's gods."

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 01:52 am    Post subject: Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom GN
By Enda80

The Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom I see placed in Doom's chronology before FF@20. Actually, the letters page to Doctor Strange III#12 states that it takes place shortly after he will regain the throne from Kristoff ("15 minutes" after). 
To explain, Doctor Strange III#12 was published in 1989, when Doctor Doom had lost the throne to Kristoff, and so the response was that the graphic novel would take place shortly after whichever point in the future he would regain it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 06:17 am    
By jephyork
Director

Don't you think that's kind of a flip, off-the-cuff answer, from a letter's-page editor who very likely didn't actually (1) ask anyone else at Marvel, or (2) study the overall chronology? 

I'd tend to think that its current placement does have reasons behind it... 

How well does it fit with everyone else's chronology in the space you propose? Where IS the space you propose, anyway? You didn't specify when Doom regains his throne and where you suggest the issue should occur... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 09:30 am    
By Enda80

FF I#352 would seem to be the best place to place it after for Doctor Doom, since he regains the throne in #350.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 03:16 pm    
By DonCampbell

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
The Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom I see placed in Doom's chronology before FF@20. Actually, the letters page to Doctor Strange III#12 states that it takes place shortly after he will regain the throne from Kristoff ("15 minutes" after). 
To explain, Doctor Strange III#12 was published in 1989, when Doctor Doom had lost the throne to Kristoff, and so the response was that the graphic novel would take place shortly after whichever point in the future he would regain it. 
<<<


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Don't you think that's kind of a flip, off-the-cuff answer, from a letter's-page editor who very likely didn't actually (1) ask anyone else at Marvel, or (2) study the overall chronology? 

I'd tend to think that its current placement does have reasons behind it... 

How well does it fit with everyone else's chronology in the space you propose? Where IS the space you propose, anyway? You didn't specify when Doom regains his throne and where you suggest the issue should occur... 
<<<


First off, the editorial comment in the letters page of Doctor Strange III #12 reads as follows: "By the way, your mentioning Agamotto reminds us that we need to correct a statement we made an issue or so back concerning the recent Dr. Strange/Dr. Doom graphic novel. It's counted as occurring in the near future (like about 15 minutes after Doom regains his Latverian throne, if he ever does), not in the past, as we mistakenly wrote. Sorry about that." 

The statement that needed that correction is in the letters page of Doctor Strange III #8 and reads as follows: "Yet by a weird coincidence, Lewis, Doc and Mephisto also lock horns in a graphic novel on sale right about now, in a tale centered around Dr. Doom no less, by erstwhile DR. STRANGE scripter Roger Stern and artists Mike Mignola and Mark Badger. In the works for several years now, it takes place before Doc lost (let alone regained) his left eye, but don't miss it!" 

It seems to me that the first statement was a flip, off-the-cuff plug for the graphic novel and that the second statement was an attempt to correct the mistaken information in that plug. 


Aside from that, I have to agree with Enda80 on this one. If you look at where the MCP has placed the DSDDGN in its listings for Doctors Doom and Strange, it quickly becomes apparent that Doom and Strange's status within the GN is not consistent with what's going on in their lives in the surrounding issues. 

Let's begin by establishing what's going on in the lives of Doom and Strange at the time of the GN. Strange is living in his Greenwich Village townhouse, he has two eyes and he can call upon the Vishanti in his spells. Doom is ruling Latveria from his castle and wants Strange's aid in freeing his mother's soul from Mephisto's realm. Both men are among those summoned by the Aged Genghis to the Temple of the Three in Java where they and other sorcerers participate in a contest to determine who will be Earth's Sorcerer Supreme. Strange wins but is obliged to grant a boon to Doom who demands his aid in freeing his mother's soul. They return to Latveria and Strange spends "three fortnights" training Doom in the mystic arts before they travel to Mephisto's realm (on Midsummer's Eve?) where they ultimately succeed in freeing Cynthia von Doom's soul. 

Now let's look at Doom's chronology. According to the MCP, the events of DSDDGN takes place right before FF 300. There's a big problem right there because in his next listed appearances (FF 305 and FF @20) Doom kidnaps Franklin Richards to use him in his latest attempt to free his mother's soul from Mephisto's realm. Obviously, if Doom had ALREADY freed Cynthia's soul (as depicted in DSDDGN), then there would be absolutely no reason to try again, right? Anyway, at the end of FF @20, Doom's robots turn against him because they come to believe that Kristoff is the real Doom. Doom is forced out of Latveria and doesn't return to depose Kristoof and resume his rule until FF 350. 

Conclusion: DSDDGN cannot take place before FF 305 nor can it take place between FF @20 and FF 350. 


Now let's look at Strange's chronology. According to the MCP, the events of DSDDGN take place between ST2 7/2 and ST2 8/2. As with Doom, there's a big problem right away because from ST2 5/2 through ST2 8/2 Strange is in Kamar-Taj, in or near the lamasery where the Ancient One formerly lived. Also, before Strange left his Greenwich Village home in ST2 3/2, he cast a couple of spells, one to transform his townhouse into the Stephen Strange Memorial Metaphysical Institute and another to cause the whole world to believe that he had been killed while battling the Beyonder. So a) he wouldn't be living in his townhouse (as shown in the GN) and b) surely some of the sorcerers gathered by the Aged Genghis would have mentioned the fact that he was supposed to be dead (which they didn't). 

Conclusion: DSDDGN cannot take place between ST2 3/2 and ST2 17/2. 


Next comes the matter of Strange's missing eye. During the time that he was away from Greenwich Village, Strange lost his left eye in ST2 10/2 while battling Ghaszaszh Nyirh. After that battle he began wearing a black patch over that eye. He stopped wearing the patch after Agamotto the All-Seeing replaced his eye in DRSTR3 7. This whole missing eye subplot is not consistent with DSDDGN which shows him with two eyes. 

Conclusion: DSDDGN cannot take place between ST2 10/2 and DRSTR3 7. 


Furthermore, if we accept the idea that Doom's appearance in the GN must occur after he resumes ruling Latveria in FF 350 + 352, then Strange's appearance in the GN must also occur later. Doom and Strange both appear in the Infinity Gauntlet crossover which the MCP claims takes place before FF 350. As part of that crossover, Doom appears in DRSTR3 32 and 34. 

Supposition: If DSDDGN cannot take place before FF 350, then it cannot take place before DRSTR3 34. 


Beginning in DRSTR3 48-49, Strange decides to renounce most of his powers by reciting the Emancipation Incantation, thereby giving up his ability to call upon the Vishanti and other powers for aid. Since the GN shows him successfully calling upon those gods, it follows that the GN must take place before DRSTR3 48. Also, Strange's loss of power takes place right after his involvement in the Infinity War crossover. As part of that crossover, Strange appears in DRSTR3 42-47 and in FF 369-370. 

Supposition: If DSDDGN cannot take place after DRSTR3 48, then it cannot take place after FF 370 (unless there's a BIG gap between FF 370 and DRSTR3 48). 


These conclusions and suppositions narrow the window of opportunity considerably. For Doom, DSDDGN can only take place sometime between FF 352 and FF 370. For Strange, DSDDGN can only take place sometime between DRSTR3 34 and DRSTR3 48. In other words, sometime between the Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War crossovers there must be a six-week period during which Strange trains Doom in the mystic arts. I'd just be guessing if I were to try to be any more specific about how it fits into their chronologies. 

Don Campbell 

P.S. For some reason I am fairly certain that I've read SOME Marvel story SOMEWHERE in which the salvation of Cynthia von Doom's soul is mentioned. Such a story would establish that DSDDGN was canon and that the events of the GN occured prior to that story. Unfortunately, I just cannot remember either the issue or even the series in which this story appeared. For all I know it could have been somewhere in one of the Marvel Handbooks. So, if anybody out there happens to run across said story, please let me know where you found it...so I'll know that I didn't just imagine it. 

D.C.

Last edited by DonCampbell on 26 Aug 2004 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 04:37 pm    
By Enda80

Once Again, Don Campbell chimes in with his extensive knowledge and clear logic. 

I do have a somewhat related question; 
You mentioned that Doctor Strange had faked his death in Strange Tales II#3/2 by casting a spell to make everyone believe the Beyonder had killed him. (Was it the Beyonder or that Urthona's servant alien?) Anyway, Doctor Strange III#9 has a flashback to Doctor Strange's funeral (by way of a photograph in a magazine published by J. Jonah Jameson) which shows the funeral held for Doctor Strange with many familiar faces present. 

My question is; was the funeral for Doctor Strange shown anywhere else besides this flashback in Doctor Strange III#9? If not, it might be fun to try to place it. 

(Before everyone yells "Photos don't count as fbs!", the accompanying article described the funeral, similar to that Courtney Ross fb involving Captain Britain.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 04:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Who was at the "funeral"? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 05:31 pm    
By Enda80

From page 15 of Doctor Strange III#9 

Silver Surfer 
Daredevil 
Hulk 
Iron Man 
Black Knight (Whitman) 
Spider-Man (black costume) 

Center 
Wong 
Imei or Sara Wolfe? 
Arnie Green 

Right 
Dagger 
Nick Fury 
Thor 
Crystal? 

The article says 
Arnie Green 
Captain America 
Thor (wearing a beard) 
Silver Surfer 
Hulk 
Black Knight 
Victoria Bentley 
Wong 
Sara Wolfe 
were all there

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 05:38 pm    
By DonCampbell

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
I do have a somewhat related question; 
You mentioned that Doctor Strange had faked his death in Strange Tales II#3/2 by casting a spell to make everyone believe the Beyonder had killed him. (Was it the Beyonder or that Urthona's servant alien?) Anyway, Doctor Strange III#9 has a flashback to Doctor Strange's funeral (by way of a photograph in a magazine published by J. Jonah Jameson) which shows the funeral held for Doctor Strange with many familiar faces present. 

My question is; was the funeral for Doctor Strange shown anywhere else besides this flashback in Doctor Strange III#9? If not, it might be fun to try to place it. 

(Before everyone yells "Photos don't count as fbs!", the accompanying article described the funeral, similar to that Courtney Ross fb involving Captain Britain.) 
<<<


It was in ST2 3/2 that Doctor Strange cast a spell to make the world (including Sara Wolfe and Wong) believe that "Doctor Strange" had died. As a result of that spell, the Greenwich Village townhouse was no longer damaged and everybody "remembered" that it had been renamed the Stephen Strange Memorial Metaphysical Institute at some time after Strange's death. The circumstances of Strange's death were not immediately described. The "spell of forgetfulness" also caused Sara and Wong (and almost everybody) to believe that Strange was really an orientalist named Dr. Sanders. 

It was in ST2 12/2 that it was revealed that Strange's "memory spell" had caused many people, including Victoria Bentley, to believe that they had attended Strange's funeral. 

It was in DRSTR3 1 that Strange's funeral was first depicted and in which the idea that "Stephen Strange died a courageous death in combat with the being called the Beyonder" was first mentioned. We first saw the funeral while Imei Chang watched a videotape of it that had been broadcast on a network newscast. Apparently, the spell affected more than just people's memories since it must have somehow created tangible "evidence" of the funeral as well. 



jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Who was at the "funeral"? 
<<<

As depicted in DRSTR3 1, pages 3-4, Doctor Strange's funeral was attended by (in order of appearance): 

Thor (with beard); the Silver Surfer, Spider-Man (black suit), Guardian (Heather); Arnie Green and several monks from Kamar-Taj; an African man (wearing ceremonial attire?); Victoria Bentley; the Black Knight (Dane); three of the Fantastic Four (Sue, Reed and Johnny); Spider-Man; Sara Wolfe, Wong; the Hulk (green); She-Hulk; various members of the X-Men, Alpha Flight and the Avengers (Cyclops, Colossus, the Wasp, Box, Longshot, Shadowcat, Wolverine, Rogue, Scarlet Witch and the Vision, Iron Man, Thor, Captain America); Nick Fury; Cloak and Dagger; Daredevil and Hawkeye. 

There are also two people I can't immediately identify. In panel 4 on page 3 there is a man standing between Victroia and Dane; and in panel 3 on page 4 there is a woman standing between Wolverine and Cloak. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 06:43 pm    
By Enda80

Obviously, Doctor Strange did not really die, but is there anything against the funeral actually having happened (perhaps the spell created a corpse which was found)? 

If it was explicitly stated that the funeral was only an illusion, too, of course, then that is just a non-appearance anyway.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 09:29 pm    
By DonCampbell

The best explanation for what happened that I know of comes from DRSTR3 1. After watching a videotape of a TV network's coverage of the funeral, Imei Chang thinks to herself, "But here - - a videotape of a network newscast that the whole world saw - - of an event that never took place. A spell to cover his tracks while he fought the Old Ones. Not just memories - - but something else - - as tangible as this (the videotape cassette)." 

At a guess, I'd say that Strange created a scenario of what he wanted the world to believe, a scenario that began with his death while battling the Beyonder and proceeded through the disposition of his body. After choosing all the people who would be involved with his death and funeral (i.e. coroners, morticians, gravediggers and guests), Strange created a sort of shared virtual reality experience which followed the script he had laid out. Strange then altered the memories of all those people, causing them to "remember" the events from the VR experience as having happened in reality. Various heroes would remember seeing Strange die while battling the Beyonder, the morticians would remember dealing with his corpse, the gravediggers would remember digging his grave and the guests would remember the funeral...NONE of which actually happened. 

Also, for those people not directly involved with his death and funeral, Strange's spell provided tangible evidence by creating a series of videotaped images of the funeral that was consistent with what the funeral attendees remembered having happened. After altering the memory of whoever supposedly videotaped the funeral, the tape was aired and the whole world saw photographic proof that Stephen Strange had actually died. 

In short, Strange tampered with the memories of a select group of people and provided a magically-faked videotape of a funeral that never took place. That means that the funeral was a total non-event that should NOT be listed in anybody's chronologies...but the airing of the faked videotape seems to have really happened. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any story in which a character is shown learning of Strange's death by watching the TV coverage of his funeral but, if such a scene ever occurs, it should be listed in that character's chronology. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 09:45 pm    
By Enda80

"That means that the funeral was a total non-event that should NOT be listed in anybody's chronologies...but the airing of the faked videotape seems to have really happened. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any story in which a character is shown learning of Strange's death by watching the TV coverage of his funeral but, if such a scene ever occurs, it should be listed in that character's chronology." 

In Doctor Strange III#9, in the article, Morgana Blessing mentions that she saw the funeral on TV, which would support your contention that the faked video was in fact aired.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 10:31 am    
By Enda80

I would guess that reference to Cynthia Von Doom's salvation took place in Doctor Strange III#34. I'll look into it. If it did, that might be a problem, because the Chronology Project lists that issue as taking place before Avengers I#333, where Doctor Doom was still trying to force the Avengers to help him free his mother. (Rage calls Doctor Doom's bluff that Doom would destroy the Avengers even if Doom himself died in the process, since Rage points out that if Doom really did kill himself, there would be nobody left to free his mother from Mephisto.) 

(This was the issue during the Infinity Gauntlet in which Doctor Doom is brought to Tibet by Dr. Strange and Dr. Druid to be reunited with those monks we saw in Doctor Doom's origin. 
Incidentally, that issue, DRSTR3 34, does contain a possible mistake as I recall; it states that Victor Von Doom made his trip to Tibet before Doctor Strange and Doctor Druid made their respective trips to Tibet. 
Since both Druid and Strange have been firmly set as having been active as adventurers decades prior to the modern era by way of Marvel Universe#4-7 and Marvel: The Lost Generation, while Victor Von Doom was a classmate of Reed Richards, the only way he could have made his trip to Tibet before they made theirs would be if time travel was involved... but then again, since Doctor Doom has a time machine, I guess this may not be so objectionable.) 

If not there, I do recall some of the adepts introduced in that GN showing up in Maximum Security fighting Ego.

Last edited by Enda80 on 27 Aug 2004 11:24 am; edited 2 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 10:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

Out of curiosity ... the recent FF story arc "Unthinkable" dealt with ANOTHER foray by Doom into Hell to save his mother's soul ... right? 

So when did she get RE-trapped in hell? Is this an oversight on Waid's part, or was there some storyline that retconned her release and put her back in hell? 

(Or am I misremembering Waid's storyline?) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 11:14 am    
By Enda80

Looking over Doom's chronology, I remembered something; in his Avengers I#333 appearance, Doctor Doom tried to pressgang the Avengers into helping him rescue his mother. This should then represent the last time that Doctor Doom has tried to force someone to save his mother for him.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 11:15 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Since both Druid and Strange have been firmly set as having been active as adventurers decades prior to the modern era by way of Marvel Universe#4-7 and Marvel: The Lost Generation, while Victor Von Doom was a classmate of Reed Richards, the only way he could have made his trip to Tibet before they made theirs would be if time travel was involved... but then again, since Doctor Doom has a time machine, I guess this may not be so objectionable.) 
<<<


This is entirely possible. It's already been shown (in Marvel Universe #2) that Doom went back in time sometime shortly after he rose to power in Latveria to study how Hitler was able to rule Germany so well.

Last edited by SKleefeld on 27 Aug 2004 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 11:18 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Out of curiosity ... the recent FF story arc "Unthinkable" dealt with ANOTHER foray by Doom into Hell to save his mother's soul ... right? 

So when did she get RE-trapped in hell? Is this an oversight on Waid's part, or was there some storyline that retconned her release and put her back in hell? 

(Or am I misremembering Waid's storyline?) 

-Jeph! 
<<<

You're mis-remembering. Doom never mentioned his mother during the "Unthinkable" storyline. He was only using demonic power to enact revenge on the FF; he wasn't seeking to save his mother's soul this time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 12:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Oh good. Thanks, Sean. 

In that case I guess my question is, has anyone recently mistakenly referred to Doom's mother still being in Hell? I have a nagging memory of some botched reference post-DSDDGN, but I might be thinking of one from long ago -- one that might now be patched by bringing the Strange/Doom GN up to post-Infinity Gauntlet, as has been suggested here. 

When was the last time Doom's mother WAS referenced? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 02:22 pm    
By Enda80

In Avengers I#333 Doctor Doom tried to press gang the Avengers into freeing his mother. This was published in 1991, after Triumph and Torment (which came out in 1989), but since T+T has to be moved to after the Infinity Gauntlet anyway, no problem exists.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 10:44 pm    
By DonCampbell

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
In that case I guess my question is, has anyone recently mistakenly referred to Doom's mother still being in Hell? I have a nagging memory of some botched reference post-DSDDGN, but I might be thinking of one from long ago -- one that might now be patched by bringing the Strange/Doom GN up to post-Infinity Gauntlet, as has been suggested here. 

When was the last time Doom's mother WAS referenced? 
<<<

You might be thinking of the DOOM: THE EMPEROR RETURNS limited series from 2002 in which Doom, after gaining control of the reality engine that is the core of Planet Doom, sees his world transformed into what he wished it to be. As part of that wish, his mother is alive again but she is lacking her soul. After killing the PD Reed Richards for failing to restore her with science, Doom uses magic to try to rescue her soul from Hell but fails. When a demon's comments makes him realize how hollow his dream world is, Doom decides to take his mother's body and return to Earth Prime via the Negative Zone. After an encounter with Hellscout, Doom is confronted by the world-mind of Planet Doom (which he had seemingly destroyed after tricking it into giving him control) who reveals that it has downloaded itself into his armor. Realizing that the only way to defeat the world-mind is to purge its files, Doom does so but, since his mother is just another construct, by doing so he loses his mother again. 

Aside from the fact that the writer had obviously not read DSDDGN and thus didn't know that Cynthia's soul had already been freed, the story itself is so weird that I have no qualms about dismissing Doom's belief that his mother's soul was still in Hell as some sort of side-effect of his linking himself to the world-mind. 

As to where any reference to Cynthia's soul being saved might be found, I still have no real idea. I can only speculate that it would be in a story involving Doctor Doom...or Mephisto...or Doctor Strange...or the Fantastic Four...which doesn't do much to limit the possibilities, does it? 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Sep 2004 12:58 pm    
By DonCampbell

I finally remembered where that reference to Doom's having saved his mother soul appeared. It took place in FANTASTIC FOUR UNLIMITED #12 (December, 1995), in a flashback in which Reed Richards recounts what happened to he and Doom following their apparent deaths in FF #381. After Hyperstorm "rescued" them from the time stream, he imprisoned them and began torturing Doom with his own memories. One page was devoted to Doom's memory of his mother's fate. Here's what Hyperstorm said as he narrated that memory: 

"First loves have a special place in a man's heart -- as do fathers -- yet foremost of all is that reserved for his mother! Your mother's place -- because of an unholy bargain made when you were but an infant -- was long in the dark realm of Mephisto! With the aid of the sorcerer Dr. Strange, you finally freed her soul -- or rather, enabled her to free it herself -- but only at the cost of her love for you! I can only imagine the excruciating spasm that must lance your brain when you recall that greatest of all losses." 

This clearly establishes that the events of DSDDGN must take place sometime before FF #379-381 since that storyline leads directly into Doom's "death" and his subsequent torture by Hyperstorm. 

Furthermore, aside from the DSDDGN, Doctors Strange and Doom both appear in the INFINITY WAR LS and in FF #374. FF #366-370 are the IW crossover issues and it is during them that Alicia Masters is kidnapped by Aron the Rogue Watcher and Philip Masters comes to the Thing for help. FF #371 opens with the FF getting ready to find and rescue Alicia but by its end Johnny Storm has accidentally set fire to Empire State University. The next few issues take place soon afterwards and FF #374 features a team of "Secret Defenders" which Strange has had to assemble because he has "recently been stripped of much of (his) power*" (*See DR. STRANGE #49-50!). Since Strange had his full power during the six weeks which elapsed within the DSDDGN and since FF #374 takes place only days (at most) after IW, the GN therefore must take place before the IW LS. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2005 04:11 pm    
By Enda80

>>>
In short, Strange tampered with the memories of a select group of people and provided a magically-faked videotape of a funeral that never took place. That means that the funeral was a total non-event that should NOT be listed in anybody's chronologies...but the airing of the faked videotape seems to have really happened. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any story in which a character is shown learning of Strange's death by watching the TV coverage of his funeral but, if such a scene ever occurs, it should be listed in that character's chronology. 

Don Campbell 
<<<

Thor Annual#14 seems to confirm that, yes, the doctored videotape was aired. Backing this up, in Thor Annual#14, Thor and Ben Grimm goes to Doctor Strange's Sanctum and Grimm says "Don't you get the Fox Network in Asgard? Doctor Strange is dead." 

Thor comments later that he remembers going to Strange's funeral. The above seems to indicate that Ben Grimm was not one of the people mesmerized into thinking they had attended Strange's funeral.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 10:55 am    
By Enda80

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Since both Druid and Strange have been firmly set as having been active as adventurers decades prior to the modern era by way of Marvel Universe#4-7 and Marvel: The Lost Generation, while Victor Von Doom was a classmate of Reed Richards, the only way he could have made his trip to Tibet before they made theirs would be if time travel was involved... but then again, since Doctor Doom has a time machine, I guess this may not be so objectionable.) 
<<<

This is entirely possible. It's already been shown (in Marvel Universe #2) that Doom went back in time sometime shortly after he rose to power in Latveria to study how Hitler was able to rule Germany so well. 
<<<

I guess it is possible, but there just seems no particular reason to time travel to Tibet pre-1958 or so (Doctor Druid was active with the Monster Hunters pre-Lost Generation#2, so his origin must predate that. Sadly, Avengers Spotlight#37 had him revisit his origin through time travel and see Judgement at Nuremberg in a movie theater-the filmd did not come out till 1961 or so).

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 11:35 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
the filmd did not come out till 1961 or so 
<<<

Sure, in OUR universe. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 02:06 pm    
By Enda80

Perhaps the Playhouse 90 version was released to theaters?

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 24 May 2006 07:50 am    Post subject: Should inanimate (but important) objects be kept track of?
By Elijya

Hi, new to the forum, but I use the MCP as a resourse all the time (can't thank you guys enough for all your hard work!) 

I don't know if it's ever been discussed here before, but I was wondering if a case could be made for keeping track of the chronology of certain important inanimate objects. Obviously I'm not talking about Captain America's shield, since that would simply have every cap appearence (almost). I'm thinking more about objects like the Infinity Gems, the Ultimate Nullifier, and the Cosmic Cube, which all have sparse and scattered appearence records that certainly might be of interest to people 

(it's certainly of interest to me, since I'm typing this after just coming here to check the MCP in the hope the Infinity Gems might have already been listed) 




also, just two quick things I noticed while checking the FAQ, that's not worth starting a new thread for if you wouldn't mind: #1. Why are the two original Hercules miniseries out of continuity? If anything, the latest Herc mini looks to be out since the greek pantheon operating as businessmen doesn't jive with any other appearence they've ever had, including the current Ares mini. 

And #2, the FAQ points out "X-Men: After Age of Apocalypse, we were dropped into the middle of a dozen running plotlines, with no explanation. For instance: Sunspot's a member of X-Force?" Sunspot WAS a member of X-Force pre-Age of Apocalypse. The team rescued him in X-Force #15 (I'm pretty sure) and he was injured but joined them in action during the X-Cutioner's Song. This cover alone proves it 
http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=97720903230%2027 

(The Age of Apocalypse for X-Force took place between issues #43 and #44)

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2006 08:47 am    
By jephyork
Director

I can help you with #2, at least -- in X-Force #29, Sunspot vanished in a battle with the MLF. In #43, the last issue before the AoA, he was revealed in a cliffhanger ending to be the ranting villain Reignfire. And in #44 ... he was a member of X-Force again, with very little explanation. It was kind of jarring. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2006 08:53 am    
By JD

Elijya wrote: 
>>>
This cover alone proves it 
http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=97720903230%2027 
<<<


Except that this is a cover to #27. In #28, Sunspot disappeared because of some interference with Locus's powers. It is then progressively revealed that Sunspot had been Reignfire (the bad guy who had appeared a few issues before) all along due to a time-travel paradox. 
Sunspot abruptly changed from "bad Reignfire" to "good guy with Askani teachings" in the AoA hiatus. 

(The Reignfire thing was complicated a lot during the Francis Moore run on X-Force, so I'd rather not elaborate.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2006 08:58 am    
By Frederic Krier

Hi, 
Hercules minis: the first two took place in an alternate future, in the 24th Century. 
There are actually quite a lot of problems with the Ares series (for instance the "five years later" in #4, or Ares having lived on Earth as a mortal for years) , I'll look into those when I'll do the analysis (after the series is completed). I've noticed the apparent contradiction with the Hercules mini as well. 

Frederic

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2006 10:42 am    
By ShadZ

Frederic Krier wrote: 
>>>
Hercules minis: the first two took place in an alternate future, in the 24th Century. 
<<<

This is not immediately apparent when reading the first mini, but it is made very clear in the second...
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2006 12:48 pm    
By garbonzo

You are not the first to ask about inanimat objects. I have brought it up once or twice, and it has always gotten a "when we get everything else done" type of response. However, with Thor's hammer showing up in recent issues of Fantastic Four, the rings of the Mandarin being in the posession of different people over the years, a few cosmic cubes, a scorpio key, and dozens of other objects which turn up from time to time, I think it is somethig worthy of ongoing consideration. 

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2006 02:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Waiting for us to get around to this is probably best described as "interminable". Perhaps some intrepid soul who wants to see this happen could take it upon themselves to start their OWN website, in the meantime? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2006 09:38 am    
By Elijya

But I dunno how to make a website 

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2006 09:45 am    
By JD

Maybe we could start a thread here to collect the data ? 
And ultimately, the MCP format is not very complicated ; it is very easy to transform a text file listing the appearances into a webpage (I could do it if I had the raw data).

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2006 10:01 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Maybe we could start a thread here to collect the data ? 
<<<

If you wanted to do that, I would suggest doing so in Chat. 

Quote: 
>>>
it is very easy to transform a text file listing the appearances into a webpage (I could do it if I had the raw data). 
<<<

JD, maybe you and Elijya should have a good old-fashioned team-up! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2006 07:33 am    
By lkseitz

I just want to say I think this is something worthy of being in the MCP. I'd offer to help, but I'm short on time right now. Maybe I can chip in occasionally.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Posted: 10 Jun 2006 01:01 pm    Post subject: X-men Read order guide
By Lagosta

Is there any recent X-men read order guide?

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 11 Jun 2006 07:02 pm    Post subject: Eda Arul from War Machine now in MTIO#41
By Enda80

Eda Arul now overwrites Idi Amin in MTIO#41, due to Ronald Byrd. See pg 232 of FF Encyclopedia. 

http://www.geocities.com/marvel_villains/advisor/advisor.html 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin 
(The real Idi Amin is dead. He had the inclination to do what Mogul emperor Akbar did not.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2006 08:41 pm    
By Somebody

I'm pretty sure that this won't get changed, and I'm doubly sure you know this already...

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 11 Jun 2006 09:39 am    Post subject: Code of Honor#3 question
By Enda80

Who is the guy with cables running out of his wrists with blasts and dreadlox?

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2006 11:23 am    
By jephyork
Director

You mean the yellow guy sandwiched in the gutter of pp.30-31? I have no idea... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2006 01:16 pm    
By Enda80

He is in the center of the spread. 

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=50268&zoom=4 

Oops, it could be a she, Lodestone. 

I could check with Chuck Dixon.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2006 08:55 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'm sure that after nine years he'll still remember. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2006 03:22 pm    
By Enda80

It is Professor Power from X-Factor Annual#9. Yes, he did not have dreadlox in the 1980's published stories.......but, well, one of the Ani-Men is in the scene, too, and they died before the first Secret Wars, which this takes place during.

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 13 Jun 2006 08:37 am    Post subject: Spider-man Mutant Agenda #0
By electronicLad

I have a question about Spider-man Mutant Agenda #0. 
For those of you unfamiliar with this book, it's full of (mostly) blank pages which the reader was supposed to fill up with clippings from the spider-man newspaper strip over the course of a few months. 

So, if anyone knows, were the strips basically a retelling of Mutant Agenda 1-3 ? Are they considered to be cannon? Does anyone know of an online archive of these strips? 

Thanks, 
-eLad

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2006 11:02 am    
By ShadZ

electronicLad wrote: 
>>>
So, if anyone knows, were the strips basically a retelling of Mutant Agenda 1-3 ?  
<<<

yes (to the best of my failing memory) 

electronicLad wrote: 
>>>
Are they considered to be cannon?  
<<<

No. The Spider-Man comic strip does not happen in the mainstream Marvel universe (Earth-616). It happens in its own Earth-Comicstrip (does anyone know the number for this Earth?). The Mutant Agenda strips retold the story as it happened on Earth-Comicstrip
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2006 12:05 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Exactly. Mutant Agenda #1-3 tell the Earth-616 version of the story, and Mutant Agenda #0 (once it's filled) tells the Earth-Comicstrip version. 

I don't know of an online archive of the strips, but my copy of #0 is full...  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2006 12:49 am    
By JLH

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Exactly. Mutant Agenda #1-3 tell the Earth-616 version of the story, and Mutant Agenda #0 (once it's filled) tells the Earth-Comicstrip version. 
<<<

And, don't forget, the 90s Fox Kids Spider-Man animated series did their OWN version of the same tale, in season 2 episodes "Mutant Agenda" and "Mutants' Revenge". That's one wacky multiverse!

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 23 Feb 2006 04:52 pm    Post subject: Possible Calender Corrections for Paul
By Jason Doty

I guess we can post under this thred. Feel free to add on. 

Paul, in December of year 20 you have X-Men: Declasified occuring before X-Men 109 which cannot be because Wolverine recieves a letter from Viper from the missing Shadowcat in 109.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 08:45 am    
By Jason Doty

Paul, Nightcrawler vol.2 Limited Series needs to be placed somewhere in Year 21, I did not see it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 01:15 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Agreed on X:D -- Kitty is missing from X #100-109, and returns in X #110 for Colossus' funeral without a word spoken of where she was. The only real slot for X:D is between X #109 and UX #390. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2006 10:54 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul, I'm starting a page by page analysis of X-Men books in Year 20 and started with Cable no.79-84 and got a slightly different calender placement for the days. 

Here's what I got. 

July 1 
Cable v2 #79 
Cable v2 #80 
Cable v2 #81 (1-11) 

July 2 
Cable v2 #81 (12-22) 
Cable v2 #82 (1-6) 

July 3 
Cable v2 #82 (7-21) 
Cable v2 #83 

July 4 
Cable v2 #84 (1-19) 

July 5 
Cable v2 #84 (20-22) 

July 6 
Cable v2 #84 (23)

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Feb 2006 06:47 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul, just another small adjustment. The Assassanation Game running through Gambit 16-Gambit Annual 2000, start one day and goes all through the night and ends the following morning. So keeping with your starting date. 

July 2 
Gambit v3 #16 (1-2:1,22) 
Gambit v3 #17 
Gambit v3 #18 

July 3 
Gambit v3 #19 (After midnight) 
Gambit Annual 2000

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Feb 2006 10:54 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul, Cable no.79-84 needs to occur after X-Men Black Sun no. 1-5 which I agree occurs after Gambit no.16-Gambit Annual 2000. Would you suggest starting the Cable issues the day after X-Men Black Sun ends on the Calender? 

My evidance is that in X:BS Beast comments that this is the first time he's seen Jean's new costume, but they both wear them in Cable.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2006 02:42 pm 
By Somebody

Couple of Livewires related things: 


The "Six months" reference is to sometime shortly after the LW6 flashbacks, denoting the Livewires starting their mission (after destroying the P:LW base), not the training scenes which occur before the nanoassembly of the backup units (including Cornfed & Stem Cell), per the LW3 flashback. Add a month or more in there (I may have forgotten to mention the sunny desert in the outdoor training scenes). 

The LW2 flashback to Stem Cell's nanoassembly thus is, by extension, not a couple of weeks earlier than the present-day scenes as you have it, but around seven months earlier. 

The LW6 flashbacks, with the base's destruction, are completely omitted as things stand.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Mar 2006 11:37 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul, I'm doing my first evaluation of the new calendar now... 

First thing on the agenda for me: There are several issues published in the year 2000 that are not on the Calendar as of yet. Now I know that you've stated that the Calendar really starts in the middle of the year 2000, (around Maximum Security), but for the sake of completeness, I figured I'd construct a list of issues from the year 2000 not yet on the Calendar. 

Now this list is just what I noticed as not being on the Calendar, (I used one of those websites that shows everything Marvel publishes each year to date), but it's possible the following list has titles that fit into the following catagories: 

a. It's an issue that you own, which you have determined falls into the first half of Year 20 on the Calendar. If there are issues from 2000 that fall in the first half of Year 20, then I believe it's time to start a page for "Year 20, January to June". 

b. It's an issue set in the past, or the future, or set in an alternate dimension. 

c. It's an issue I've simply missed when I was looking over the Calendar. 

d. It's an issue which is a reprint of a prior published story. 

If a title does fall into any of the above catagories, let me know, if you would Paul, (or anyone else, really). If these are titles that need added to the Calendar, and you don't own, Paul, I'd like to put out a request for analysis, that way they can be added. 

Some titles I didn't throw on this list, because I have them myself, and thus can tell that such titles don't apply, (like Blaze of Glory, published in 2000, which is entirely set in the past). Others I don't own and I'm unsure about, and that's why they're on this list, so if anyone could help point out if any of the following titles don't apply to the current Calender, that'd be great. 

Anyway, here's the list, (as I see it) of issues published in 2000 that are not yet on the Calendar: 

The Amazing Spider-man vol. 2 #15-19 
The Amazing Spider-man Annual 2000 
Avengers vol. 3 #26-30 
Avengers Two: Wonder Man and Beast #1-3 
Before the Fantastic Four: Reed Richards 
Bishop the Last X-Man #6-14 
Black Panther vol. 3 #16-19 
Blade: Vampire Hunter #4-6 
Cable #77, 78 
Captain America vol. 3 #27-34 
Captain Marvel, (Genis) #3-7 
Daredevil vol. 2 #10-20/2, (this one spills over into 2001. I noticed that DD2 #20 is the first Daredevil title on the Calender...and I don't believe I spotted DD2 #20/2 anywhere). 
Deadpool #38 
Deathlok vol. 3 #8-11 
Doom #1-3 
Fantastic Four vol. 3 #27, 28 
Galactus the Devourer #6 
Gambit vol. 3 #14, 15 
Generation X #61, 62 
Inhumans vol. 3 #1-4 
Iron Man: Bad Blood #1-4 
Magneto: Dark Seduction #1-4 
Mighty Thor Annual 2000 
Mighty Thor Annual 2001 
New Warriors #6 
Peter Parker: Spider-man #15-19 
Power Pack vol. 2 #1-4 
Punisher vol. 5 #1-8 
Silver Surfer 1/2, (Wizard supplement) 
Space Knights #1-5 
Spider-man vs. Punisher #1 
Spider-woman vol. 3, (Mattie Franklin) #9-11 
Thor vol. 2 #21-27 
Thunderbolts #36, 37 
Thunderbolts Annual 2000 
Uncanny X-men #378-380 
Warlock vol. 4 #6-9 
Webspinners: Tales of Spider-man #14-18 
Wolverine #148-153 
X-51 Machine Man: #8-12 
X-Force #100, 101 
X-Man #61-69 
X-Men #98, 99 
X-Men: The Hellfire Club #3, 4 
X-Men: Millennial Visions #1 
X-Men: Phoenix #3 
X-Men Unlimited #26, 27 

If it turns out that Paul doesn't have certain issues above, I feel that not only would it be good to get an analysis for the issues that ended up published in 2000, but for the prior issues published at the tale end of 1999, (for instance: a full review of X-men: The Hellfire Club #1-4, instead of just issues #3 and 4, which fell in 2000). 

Moving on, I took inventory of stories you had flagged with question marks on the Calendar, Paul. Apparently you don't have the issues in question, and were asking for analysis, (or at least, you didn't have the issues in question when you put them on the Calendar). With that being the case, if anyone would care to submit an analysis for the following issues, so that it is made sure these entries are in the proper place, that'd be great. 

Black Panther vol. 3 #20-22 
Deadpool #41-45, 50 
Marvel Boy #3 
Wolverine #154, 155 
Wolverine Annual 2000 
X-Man #70-74 


Any help would be appreciated! (hope you don't mind me getting analytical, Paul).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 06 Mar 2006 03:02 pm; edited 5 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Mar 2006 12:41 am    
By Col_Fury

First, some small bits: 

On October 28, year 22 
Quote: 
>>>
MACHINE TEEN #3 
The same night as MTEEN 2 (3-23). It is "a long time" after MTEEN 1-FB. Isaacs tells Adam that he's a robot and that his seizures are caused by a programming glitch that occurs whenever Adam sees evidence that he's not a normal boy. Upset, Adam storms out of the house and is ambushed by Radcliffe's men. After defeating his attackers, a shot-up Adam stumbles to the house of his friend J.T., who reveals his knowledge of Adam's being a robot. J.T. tells Adam that Radcliffe must be after Isaacs, and indeed, Radcliffe shows up at Isaacs' house. Green grass and trees. 

MACHINE TEEN #4 - FB 
One day, "about a year" before MT 4. J.T. works in Dr. Isaacs' shop and finds the prototype body for Adam. 

MACHINE TEEN #4 
The same night as... 
<<<

The FlashBack of course can't occur between issues 3 & 4, but it is placed correctly on October 26, year 21. I'm assuming this was a 'copy & paste' rather than a 'cut & paste.' 

On October 16, year 22 


Quote: 
>>>
GRAVITY #4 (12/13p5) 
One day. Gravity defeats a thug as the Greenwich Guardian looks on. 

DISTRICT X #10 - FB 
Probably the same night as XU2 2. Dzemali's dad throws crumpled up money at him. 
<<<

And on October 28, year 22 
Quote: 
>>>
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #2 
One night, "a few weeks" before DX 7. This story occurs between XX 46 and DX 1. Bishop reports to his new beat in Manhattan's District X and helps Dzemal, a Bosnian mutant, get out of a gang run by Filthy Frankie Zapruder. We see people wearing jackets. Full moon. 

DISTRICT X #10 - FB 
The same night as XU2 2. Dzemal brings the money he got from Bishop home to his father, but his father refuses it. 
<<<

Possibly another victim copy & paste. The Disctrict X #10-FB on Oct 16 & Oct 28 is the same FlashBack, with Oct 28 being the correct placement. You could probably combine the two discriptions, leaving it on Oct 28, the same night as X-Men Unlimited v2 #2. 

Also, some page ranges: 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #3 (1-21) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #3 (22-23) 

I have got to hand it to you, Paul. The volume and scope of this thing is amazing. Hats off, really. It's inspired me to get off my ass and get back to my own project of putting together the Marvel WWII years in a similar format. Who knows how long it will take, but at least it's one of those projects that I'm not actively procrastinating on anymore, at least. 

Moving on, 
Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
There are several issues published in the year 2000 that are not on the Calendar as of yet. Now I know that you've stated that the Calendar really starts in the middle of the year 2000, (around Maximum Security), but for the sake of completeness, I figured I'd construct a list of issues from the year 2000 not yet on the Calendar. 
<<<

And, 
Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I took inventory of stories you had flagged with question marks on the Calendar, Paul. Apparently you don't have the issues in question, and were asking for analysis, (or at least, you didn't have the issues in question when you put them on the Calendar).  
<<<

I will be taking some vacation days the week of March 13, so if you needed any help in these areas, I'll have some free time.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Mar 2006 09:00 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Before the Fantastic Four: Ben Grimm and Logan 
Before the Fantastic Four: Reed Richards 
Before the Fantastic Four: The Storms 
(do all three of the above titles have narrative sequences set in the present day?) 
<<<

The Ben Grimm and Storms titles are entirely set in the past. The Reed Richards one does have a modern component, but that is set prior to this calendar... circa FF3 12. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Doom #1-3 
Fantastic Four vol. 3 #27, 28 
Galactus the Devourer #6 
Inhumans vol. 3 #1-4 
<<<

These, I believe would all occur in the first half of Year 20. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Comics: Captain America 
Marvel Comics: Daredevil 
Marvel Comics: Fantastic Four 
Marvel Comics: Spider-Man 
Marvel Comics: Thor 
Marvel Comics: X-Men 
(do any of the above "Marvel Comics" issues have sequences set in the real MU?) 
<<<

These are all strictly non-canon. They are essentially the comics that are published in the MU, and have no direct correlation to character continuity at all. We could theoretically place them in Paul's calendar according to when they would have been published in the MU, but since they would be considered fictional even with the MU, there are technically no appearances of any MU characters to cite. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Spider-man: Death and Destiny #1-3 
<<<

This occurs much earlier in Spider-Man's career. It's an expansion storyline from the time of the death of Capt. Stacey and Gwen's trip to Europe.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Mar 2006 05:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the comments, guys. Keep 'em coming. I'm compiling them into a master list of changes I need to make or consider making, and when I get the chance, I'll start tackling them. I can't edit the posted calendar directly, but I'll make the changes on the unposted master copy so they'll appear on the next update...18 months from now.  

Kevin, just quickly looking through that list of issues you posted from 2000, I can tell that a good many of them are placed prior to July of Year 20. But I do need to look at the list carefully to make sure I didn't leave something out inadvertently.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Mar 2006 11:00 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul, on April 4th of Year 21, you have this: 

Quote: 
>>>
SPIDER-MAN/DAREDEVIL #1 (1-22) 
<<<

I believe the title of that miniseries was Daredevil/Spider-Man, not the other way around. 

I also noticed a few other issues from the Year 2000 that I don't see on the Calender, (unless I'm overlooking it somehow): 

Fantastic Four: Big Town #1-4 

Also, though it's from 2001, I don't see the Mighty Thor Annual 2001 on the Calender, (I have this memory of someone mentioning this recently...can't seem to find the thread now)... 

So I'm adding those items to my list above. 

Quote: 
>>>
The Ben Grimm and Storms titles are entirely set in the past. The Reed Richards one does have a modern component, but that is set prior to this calendar... circa FF3 12.  
<<<

Okay, I've taken the Storms and Grimm miniseries off of my list above, but have left the Richards miniseries on there, in case Paul doesn't have it and needs a review of the modern day sequence. If it falls around FF3 12, that's fine, I just figured I'd note it since that miniseries was published in the year 2000. 

Quote: 
>>>
These are all strictly non-canon. They are essentially the comics that are published in the MU, and have no direct correlation to character continuity at all. We could theoretically place them in Paul's calendar according to when they would have been published in the MU, but since they would be considered fictional even with the MU, there are technically no appearances of any MU characters to cite. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Spider-man: Death and Destiny #1-3 
<<<

This occurs much earlier in Spider-Man's career. It's an expansion storyline from the time of the death of Capt. Stacey and Gwen's trip to Europe. 
<<<

That's what I suspected. Okay, I'm taking those issues off the list above. 

Quote: 
>>>
I can't edit the posted calendar directly, but I'll make the changes on the unposted master copy so they'll appear on the next update...18 months from now.  
<<<

Maybe we can settle on a routine of an update once every 6 months? (I think at one time you were hoping to go that route, but things of course got delayed...but then, all of the delays were thanks to Secret War and Bendis, so maybe if we just set a schedule of a new update every 6 months?) 

If you and Russ are okay with that... 

Quote: 
>>>
Kevin, just quickly looking through that list of issues you posted from 2000, I can tell that a good many of them are placed prior to July of Year 20. But I do need to look at the list carefully to make sure I didn't leave something out inadvertently. 
<<<

I figured most of them were from the first half of Year 20...maybe we could see a page for the first half of Year 20 on the next update to the Calender? 

I just figured this might be a good way of slowly pushing the Calender backwards: Going back year to year, (first 2000, then 1999, and so on), figuring out which issues you don't own, collecting analysis for them, periodically going backwards, (while most of the time our focus will be on going forward)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2006 02:05 am    
By SeanCurtin

Kevin W. wrote: 
Fantastic Four: Big Town #1-4 


Not canon. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2006 03:01 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I kinda suspected as much, but I figured I'd flag it for someone to let me know one way or the other. I'll take it off the list above. 

Any others on the list above that are clearly not canon, or not dealing with the current period of the Calendar?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2006 08:42 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Handful of misc. updates/notes for Paul... 

In your citing of FF3 32 (3-23) on Aug. 10 Year 20, you note that this occurs the day after FF3 32 (1-2), but you have FF3 32 (1-2) occurring on Aug. 7 instead of Aug. 9. Given that you have some other FF3 32 listings in that area, it looks like you moved a few things around and didn't quite catch all the corrections. 

Regarding Capt. America and the Falcon v2 #12 -- I don't have the issue, but would it make sense to push it after FOUR 12? As it is, you have Reed helping Cap out, but he doesn't have access to any of the Baxter Building's equipment until after FOUR 12. 

GLA 2 (8-22) -- Any reason why this shouldn't appear before NA 10? Why would the GLA ask Luke Cage to join them if he was a recognized member of the New Avengers? 

FF:FOES #5 pg 7 panel 2 -- I believe that's supposed to be the Trapster. 

You have the flashback for FF 530 occurring on this timeline. My reading of the Entity's origin -- when coupled with one of Reed's speeches from FF 529 -- suggests to me that this sequence should occur just prior to the FF's origin in FF 1. In FF 529, Reed talks about how the cosmic storm that transformed them must have been some sort of communication attempt and that the impending storm must be a second attempt. It's also suggested that the Entity has been trying to contact people (not just the FF) for a while, as he notes that his pursuers reach him more quickly with every attempt. So my interpretation is that this sequence belongs back in Year 1. 

Marvel Holiday Special 2005 #1 pg 6 panels 5-8 -- This should occur prior to Sensational She-Hulk #32-33, where Mole Man attempts to make She-Hulk his wife. Somehow, I don't think Moley would try the same thing twice given how poorly it went the first time. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2006 06:37 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Found something else I'd like to question, Paul... 

You have FOUR #15-18 occuring about six months after A 503. If Ramades were going to strike during a week point in the Avengers's career, wouldn't it make more sense to push that up much closer to A 503... when many of the Avengers are actually still in the hospital and out of commission? Why wait six months for them to heal and recuperate if you're actively looking for a time period when they're weakened? If this story were pushed up towards late October/early November of the prior year, then it would tie in better with what's going on with the Avengers AND it would also put the FF in a more fragile state as well, since they'd be in the midst of a PR fiasco. I actually have FOUR #15-18 (as well as #13-14) even before FF 517.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2006 07:53 pm    
By Somebody

Just curious - are you going to post an error-corrected version (i.e., not adding any more comics, except those left out by accident, but incorporating the corrections here) or will we have to wait for next year's update before these are fixed? 

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2006 08:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm slowly getting around to addressing corrections, in the midst of changing and adding things to keep up with new releases. Please bear with me. I'm keeping a checklist of things I need to investigate. 

I'll take this opportunity to address Kevin's comments. First, 

Quote: 
>>>
Paul, on April 4th of Year 21, you have this: 

Quote: 
>>>
SPIDER-MAN/DAREDEVIL #1 (1-22) 
<<<

I believe the title of that miniseries was Daredevil/Spider-Man, not the other way around.  
<<<

Kevin, I think you're confusing this one-shot with a four-issue limited series from early 2001, which I've placed tentatively in the first half of Year 20. 

Speaking of the first half of Year 20, I've confirmed that most of the missing issues from 2000 that you listed are tentatively placed there. Other listings are set in the past or non-canonical. These are the exceptions... 

Two of the items on the list are actually on the Calendar: 
Daredevil vol. 2 #20/2  9/7, Year 20 
Thunderbolts Annual 2000  7/11, Year 20 

I inadvertently left out the following: 
Power Pack vol. 2 #1-4  add to 8/26-8/28, Year 20 
X-Men Unlimited #27  add to 8/11, Year 20 

I dont have the following issues, so Ill need analyses to add them: 
Bishop: the Last X-Man #6-14 
Daredevil vol. 2 #16-19 
Nightcrawler vol. 2 #1-4 
Punisher vol. 5 #4-8 
Wolverine #150-153 
X-51 #8-12 
X-Man #63-66 

Im not sure about the following. Do they belong on this Calendar? 
Silver Surfer 1/2 (Wizard supplement) 
Spaceknights #1-5 
Spider-Man vs. Punisher #1  set in the past (the summer after ASM 122)? 
X-Men: Hellfire Club #3-4  set in the past?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2006 09:34 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Im not sure about the following. Do they belong on this Calendar? 
Silver Surfer 1/2 (Wizard supplement) 
<<<

Although I don't have a copy, I've read it. IIRC, there's nothing preventing it from being canonical, and Heroes Return is referenced as a recent event. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2006 10:50 pm    
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
X-Men: Hellfire Club #3-4  set in the past? 
<<<

There's a 'current day' plot involving Irene Merryweather(sp?) investigating the Hellfire Club, but the majority is set in the past.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2006 02:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sounds like I'll need analyses of both the Hellfire Club mini and the Wizard issue of Silver Surfer, the latter of which may predate the current Calendar. 

Quote: 
>>>
Just curious - are you going to post an error-corrected version (i.e., not adding any more comics, except those left out by accident, but incorporating the corrections here) or will we have to wait for next year's update before these are fixed?  
<<<

It may be too much of a hassle for Russ to keep translating updated versions into web pages, but I am planning to post monthly (perhaps at the end of each month) a simple list of added, edited, moved, and deleted entries -- just a list, not the detailed entries themselves. Folks can follow up with questions if need be. Maybe that'll help a little. Thanks for asking, somebody. 


Quote: 
>>>
FF:FOES #5 pg 7 panel 2 -- I believe that's supposed to be the Trapster.  
<<<

Thanks, Sean. 


Quote: 
>>>
Marvel Holiday Special 2005 #1 pg 6 panels 5-8 -- This should occur prior to Sensational She-Hulk #32-33, where Mole Man attempts to make She-Hulk his wife. Somehow, I don't think Moley would try the same thing twice given how poorly it went the first time. 
<<<

Okay, I'll move this off the current Calendar. Thanks, Sean. 


Quote: 
>>>
The FlashBack [in MACHINE TEEN 4] of course can't occur between issues 3 & 4, but it is placed correctly on October 26, year 21. I'm assuming this was a 'copy & paste' rather than a 'cut & paste.'  
<<<

Yup, you guessed it, Col_Fury. Thanks. 


Quote: 
>>>
Possibly another victim copy & paste. The Disctrict X #10-FB on Oct 16 & Oct 28 is the same FlashBack, with Oct 28 being the correct placement. You could probably combine the two discriptions, leaving it on Oct 28, the same night as X-Men Unlimited v2 #2.  
<<<

You're right on the money, Col_Fury. Thanks for noticing this. 


Quote: 
>>>
Paul, Cable no.79-84 needs to occur after X-Men Black Sun no. 1-5 which I agree occurs after Gambit no.16-Gambit Annual 2000. Would you suggest starting the Cable issues the day after X-Men Black Sun ends on the Calender? My evidance is that in X:BS Beast comments that this is the first time he's seen Jean's new costume, but they both wear them in Cable. 
<<<

Jason, I can certainly move C2 79-84 after X:BS 1-5 as you rightly suggest. I wonder, though, if we shouldn't move C2 79-84 to a point months after X:BS. C2 85 is supposed to occur during the "week" after C2 82, and I have C2 85 on November 2 of Year 20. Would it be okay to just move C2 79-84 to late October, or do we run into chronology problems vis-a-vis other titles?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2006 04:35 pm    
By Jason Doty

I don't think anything prevents you from moving it on a chronological bases, but I didn't look at any comments made in the first arc of Uncanny, the only comment he made in Cable #79 was about recently joining. I'll look into it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2006 10:11 am    
By jephyork
Director

Bishop: the Last X-Man #6-14 all take place in the future. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2006 12:04 pm    
By Jason Doty

Paul wrote 
>>>
Jason, I can certainly move C2 79-84 after X:BS 1-5 as you rightly suggest. I wonder, though, if we shouldn't move C2 79-84 to a point months after X:BS. C2 85 is supposed to occur during the "week" after C2 82, and I have C2 85 on November 2 of Year 20. Would it be okay to just move C2 79-84 to late October, or do we run into chronology problems vis-a-vis other titles? 
<<<

I would propose moving Cable 85-86, backwards on the Calender rather than moving Cable 79-84 toward them. 

Cable 79-84 should occur between July 6-11, Uncanny 381 is o.k starting on the July 12. All that is required is moving X-Force to coincide with Uncanny due to Domino's appearance in X-Force. 

Then have Cable 85 and 86 happen a week after 82 and it should work out. 

Cable 87, I believe is tied to Bishop 16 and UX 288, so it,s o.k where it's at. 

I'm at school, so I don't have the comics in front of me, but I believe it would work out pretty good and keep all the Revolution storylines roughly in the same area.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2006 04:01 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Kevin, I think you're confusing this one-shot with a four-issue limited series from early 2001, which I've placed tentatively in the first half of Year 20. 
<<<


Hmmm...it would appear you're right. My mistake. 

Do you still need analysis for these ones which I noticed from the Calendar as having question marks next to their entries? 


Quote: 
>>>
Black Panther vol. 3 #20-22 
Deadpool #50 
Marvel Boy #3 
Wolverine #154, 155 
Wolverine Annual 2000 
X-Man #70-74 
<<<

_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2006 05:23 pm    
By Somebody

Cable #85 is tied closely to Cable #82-84 (He gets his first flash from Rachel in #82, and from her captor in #83&84) and time-travels to go get her the first chance he gets. Whatever you do with the earlier issues, you can't seperate the save-Rachel two-parter from them.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2006 07:20 pm    
By Jason Doty

My suggestion keeps them closely tied and uses the time frame from the comics themselves.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2006 09:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I would propose moving Cable 85-86, backwards on the Calender rather than moving Cable 79-84 toward them. 
Cable 79-84 should occur between July 6-11, Uncanny 381 is o.k starting on the July 12. All that is required is moving X-Force to coincide with Uncanny due to Domino's appearance in X-Force. 
Then have Cable 85 and 86 happen a week after 82 and it should work out. 
Cable 87, I believe is tied to Bishop 16 and UX 288, so it,s o.k where it's at.  
<<<

Okay, that sounds like a plan. Could you elaborate on your suggested movement of "X-Force to coincide with Uncanny"? 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Do you still need analysis for these ones which I noticed from the Calendar as having question marks next to their entries?  
<<<

Sure do.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2006 09:34 am    
By Jason Doty

Paul wrote 
>>>
Could you elaborate on your suggested movement of "X-Force to coincide with Uncanny"?  
<<<

I just mean that we will need to start the X-Force storyline after July 12th giving Domino enough time to get back to X-Force, to accomidate her appearance in C2 84. Once again I'll have to look at it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2006 09:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Time to address Sean K.'s comments: 

Quote: 
>>>
You have FOUR #15-18 occuring about six months after A 503. If Ramades were going to strike during a week point in the Avengers's career, wouldn't it make more sense to push that up much closer to A 503... when many of the Avengers are actually still in the hospital and out of commission? Why wait six months for them to heal and recuperate if you're actively looking for a time period when they're weakened? If this story were pushed up towards late October/early November of the prior year, then it would tie in better with what's going on with the Avengers AND it would also put the FF in a more fragile state as well, since they'd be in the midst of a PR fiasco. I actually have FOUR #15-18 (as well as #13-14) even before FF 517. 
<<<

My placement has Ramades attacking at a time when there wasnt an Avengers at all  a time between A:FINALE and A4 1. That certainly would be a good time to strike and I figured this would work in the spring (FOUR 15) of Year 23. For all anyone knew before FINALE, the Avengers were still together (possibly ready to thwart an attack) but not on the radar, but after FINALE, its a wrap. I suppose it depends on how you interpret Ramades remark that the team is smashed to pieces. (For that matter, why didnt Ramades strike before FF 1? Little opposition at that point. Hmm.) As for the hospitalized Avengers prior to FINALE, whore we talking about really? Jan? Kelsey? I think the official breakup of the team would have had more impact on an attack decision than the incapacitation of a couple of lighter hitters. 

Placing FOUR 13-18 between FOUR 12 and the Halloween of FF 317 is a challenge, especially given the month that separates FOUR 14-FB and FOUR 14. In the absence of definitive plot and character references, I fell back on the ol temporal references and placed FF 517 at Halloween and FOUR 15 on a warm spring day during Little League season the following year, a time when the Avengers are officially defunct. I suppose this is another instance in which the temporal references need to be weighed in the absense of stronger clues. Heck, I even have publication order "right," with FF 517-522 dated October 2004 through March 2005 and FOUR 15-18 dated April 2005 through June 2005. 


Quote: 
>>>
In your citing of FF3 32 (3-23) on Aug. 10 Year 20, you note that this occurs the day after FF3 32 (1-2), but you have FF3 32 (1-2) occurring on Aug. 7 instead of Aug. 9. Given that you have some other FF3 32 listings in that area, it looks like you moved a few things around and didn't quite catch all the corrections.  
<<<

Yup. Good catch, Sean.  


Quote: 
>>>
Regarding Capt. America and the Falcon v2 #12 -- I don't have the issue, but would it make sense to push it after FOUR 12? As it is, you have Reed helping Cap out, but he doesn't have access to any of the Baxter Building's equipment until after FOUR 12.  
<<<

In CA&F 12, we only see Reed on a monitor, giving advice. We dont know hes at the Baxter Building; for all we know, he could be communicating via a portable communication device. 


Quote: 
>>>
GLA 2 (8-22) -- Any reason why this shouldn't appear before NA 10? Why would the GLA ask Luke Cage to join them if he was a recognized member of the New Avengers?  
<<<

The thing is...Cage is not yet a recognized member of the Avengers as of the July of the GLA story. That doesnt happen until A4 15 in November. 


Quote: 
>>>
FF:FOES #5 pg 7 panel 2 -- I believe that's supposed to be the Trapster.  
<<<

Cool. Thanks! 


Quote: 
>>>
You have the flashback for FF 530 occurring on this timeline. My reading of the Entity's origin -- when coupled with one of Reed's speeches from FF 529 -- suggests to me that this sequence should occur just prior to the FF's origin in FF 1. In FF 529, Reed talks about how the cosmic storm that transformed them must have been some sort of communication attempt and that the impending storm must be a second attempt. It's also suggested that the Entity has been trying to contact people (not just the FF) for a while, as he notes that his pursuers reach him more quickly with every attempt. So my interpretation is that this sequence belongs back in Year 1.  
<<<

So let FF 530-FB be stricken from this portion of the calendar. Thanks for clarifying this, Sean.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2006 10:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

somebody said: 
>>>
Couple of Livewires related things: 
The "Six months" reference is to sometime shortly after the LW6 flashbacks, denoting the Livewires starting their mission (after destroying the P:LW base), not the training scenes which occur before the nanoassembly of the backup units (including Cornfed & Stem Cell), per the LW3 flashback. Add a month or more in there (I may have forgotten to mention the sunny desert in the outdoor training scenes). 
The LW2 flashback to Stem Cell's nanoassembly thus is, by extension, not a couple of weeks earlier than the present-day scenes as you have it, but around seven months earlier. 
The LW6 flashbacks, with the base's destruction, are completely omitted as things stand. 
<<<

Thanks, somebody. I think I follow you here and will make the necessary changes in calendar placement.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Mar 2006 12:25 pm    
By Arthur

In year 23: Jan 5 - in the NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #7 paragraph... 

UX 161 should read X 161 
UX 164 should read X 164 

Quote: 
>>>
One school day, sometime after UX 161, since Sammy's death and the Brotherhood's attack are mentioned. 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
Jay's statement, "after Sammy died," and Shan's statement, "We lost some rare first editions when the school was ... attacked," indicate that this issue occurs after UX 164. 
<<<

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Mar 2006 09:40 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
In year 23: Jan 5 - in the NEW X-MEN: ACADEMY X #7 paragraph... 
UX 161 should read X 161 
UX 164 should read X 164  
<<<

Thanks, Arthur.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2006 09:41 am    
By Andrew Greaves

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Paul, in December of year 20 you have X-Men: Declasified occuring before X-Men 109 which cannot be because Wolverine recieves a letter from Viper from the missing Shadowcat in 109. 
<<<

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Agreed on X:D -- Kitty is missing from X #100-109, and returns in X #110 for Colossus' funeral without a word spoken of where she was. The only real slot for X:D is between X #109 and UX #390. 
<<<

If the reference to the issue occurring a few weeks after X(2) #100 was a minor typo, and they really meant X(2) #109, everything falls into place nicely. 

After all, the 9 and 0 keys are right next to one another on the keyboard. 

Moving ahead to the next full moon places the events around January 3, Y21.

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 14 Jun 2006 11:29 pm    Post subject: korvac quest
By cnowlin

Does anyone who reads Guardians of the Galaxy know where the Korvac Quest annuals fit in with the regular series? 

Thanks

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2006 12:20 am    
By SeanCurtin

Before the beginning of the ongoing series, IIRC. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 03 May 2006 11:24 pm    Post subject: Marvel Team-Up 20
By Col_Fury

Smile, people. This is fun: 

Marvel Team-Up 20 picks up where Marvel Team-Up 10 left off. Spider-Man, Captain America, Daredevil & Wolverine are seen on page 1, which is half a recap page & half not. As Cap said in MTU3 10, he's bringing the ring into SHIELD custody, and the recap page says "That's pretty much the point where we pick up...". He ends up losing it, and reports to Director Hill. 

MTU3 7-10 has to occur before Matt Murdock gets thrown into jail. It also has to occur before Spider-Man moves into Avengers Tower. It also happens after the New Avengers form. 

According to MTU3 20, this arc now occurs after HoM. Curtis mentions that: 
Curtis wrote: 
All the mutants are gone now... most of them, anyway. 

Just to be clear, here's a page breakdown: 
pg1: Recap page 
pg2-pg6: Cap's on his way to SHIELD and is attacked by a MODOC Squad, loses the ring. 
pg7-pg13: The next morning, Curtis finds the ring. 
pg14: At that very moment, Cap's reports to Hill that he lost the ring. 
pg15-pg17: Meanwhile, Curtis learns how to use the ring, and mentions 'no more mutants.' 
pg18-pg21: The next day, Curtis & friends eat. 
pg22: Elsewhere, Titanus grows a new head. 

So we have a story that wants to take place before Spider-Man moves into Avengers Tower, which is before HoM, while Daredevil is free, and after HoM, all at the same time. See? I told you this is fun! 

Since Daredevil is free in Civil War 1, I'm assuming he'll be let go soon in his own book. There may be space for this after that & before Civil War. But Spider-Man is still living in Avengers Tower before & after HoM, up through when the Civil War starts. So MTU3 7-10 has to occur before all of that, and therefore before Daredevil is thrown in jail. 

Also, the narration says that Captain America recognizes the MODOC Squad. I could be wrong, but weren't they first introduced recently in CA5? If Cap recognizes them, wouldn't this have to take place after that? 

So how do we deal with this? 

1. 
Assume that for whatever reason, it took Captain America a long time to remember to get the ring to SHIELD. Starting on pg2 forward, it's not stated that it's the same night as MTU3 10, but the recap page clearly implies it. That way, MTU3 7-10 can happen before Daredevil is incarcerated, and before Spider-Man moves into Avengers Tower, and MTU3 20-24 can happen after HoM. 

2. 
Ignore the 'next morning' caption on pg7, and the 'at that very moment' caption on pg14, and treat pg14 as a FlashBack. Meaning pg2-pg6 happen on the same night as MTU3 10, a long time passes between pg6 & pg7, and pg14 is a FlashBack to the night of MTU3 10. That would keep the immediacy of getting the ring to SHIELD, but it would require a lot of ignoring. 

Option 1. has us ignoring an implication, where Option 2. has us ignoring captions within the story. The "That's pretty much the point where we pick up..." line on the recap page leads me to Option 1. But hey, I'm open to suggestions.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2006 07:52 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Good Lord, Robert Kirkman may be a decent writer, but he's TERRIBLE at chronology... 

The line about "All the mutants are gone now" is a pretty good indication that this is indeed after HoM, and I'm more inclined to pay heed to that, than to the narrative line, "That's pretty much where we left off." 

I guess the best solution is indeed that for some reason it took Cap forever to get that ring to SHIELD, (maybe he was off chasing the Winter Soldier)... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2006 08:30 am    
By jephyork
Director

Yep, I like option #1 as well. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2006 09:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Good Lord, Robert Kirkman may be a decent writer, but he's TERRIBLE at chronology... 
<<<

Just part and parcel of the general decline in integrity of continuity that characterizes writing and editing at Marvel these days, IMHO.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2006 05:34 am    
By ajbrown

Daredevil isn't free in Civil War #1. Over in Daredevil there is an imposter running around dressed like Daredevil and this is the person we see in Civil War #1. Joe Quesada pretty much confirmed this in Joe Fridays: 

"NRAMA: Fair point  So how is Daredevil at the hero meeting? 

JQ: He took a cab. 

NRAMA: Is it significant that hes rolling a quarter? Doesnt seem very Murdock-esque 

JQ: Yeah How about that?" 

There's a lot of speculation that the "new" Daredevil is Clint Barton aka Hawkeye. 

Not sure how this helps the chronology question, but just letting you know Civil War #1 doesn't show Daredevil free from prison.
_________________
AJ

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2006 06:31 am    
By JLH

ajbrown wrote: 
>>>
There's a lot of speculation that the "new" Daredevil is Clint Barton aka Hawkeye. 
<<<

But... I heard on the net he was the new Swordsman! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 04:59 pm    
By Somebody

#21: 

We've got Iron Spider. And the AXM team (Cyclops, Beast, Frost, Wolverine, Colossus, Shadowcat, Lockheed) in superhero mode (Cyclops' early AXM "make them love us" speech is explictly referenced by Shadowcat). Which doesn't really match up with the X-Men's post-HoM status quo. 

Oh, and Abomination appears either before or in ignorance of the ending of Hulk: Destruction. If you want to say "before", this needs to be before Hulk #88. If you're a calendaree, waaaay before . 

Yep, fun 

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2006 06:56 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
We've got Iron Spider. And the AXM team (Cyclops, Beast, Frost, Wolverine, Colossus, Shadowcat, Lockheed) in superhero mode (Cyclops' early AXM "make them love us" speech is explictly referenced by Shadowcat). Which doesn't really match up with the X-Men's post-HoM status quo.  
<<<

We're going to have to explain away that treatment of the X-Men somehow, because Spidey's costume places this story after HOM. Chalk this up to yet another example of creators not following the progression of events in the MU. (And it sure did take a LONG time for the missing ring to be found!) 



Quote: 
>>>
Oh, and Abomination appears either before or in ignorance of the ending of Hulk: Destruction. If you want to say "before", this needs to be before Hulk #88. If you're a calendaree, waaaay before  
<<<

Or...Hulk: Destruction happens way before M/TU3 21 and there are missing pieces of Blonsky's story (set in Korea) between the two stories...
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2006 12:03 pm    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
the AXM team (Cyclops, Beast, Frost, Wolverine, Colossus, Shadowcat, Lockheed) in superhero mode (Cyclops' early AXM "make them love us" speech is explictly referenced by Shadowcat). Which doesn't really match up with the X-Men's post-HoM status quo. 
<<<

I didn't see that as a big problem. Maybe the Sentinels were on a lunch break? Or we just didn't see them, because they were just to the left of the panel... 

Quote: 
>>>
Or...Hulk: Destruction happens way before M/TU3 21 and there are missing pieces of Blonsky's story (set in Korea) between the two stories... 
<<<

I'd go with that one.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 17 Jun 2006 05:43 pm    Post subject: X -questions
By poetdowns

Since the end of House of M, has Magneto or Scarlet Witch or Prof X made an appearance? 
I'm not aware of any, but i live in an area that's seriously comic book deprived so i thought i'd check. 

Thanks, 
Poet

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2006 05:49 pm    
By Jason Doty

Professor X made his return in X-Men: Deadly Genesis and will appear in Uncanny X-Men soon. 

Magneto appeared in Son of M, and it looks like he will be appearing in New Avengers. 

Scarlet Witch is still nowhere to be found.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2006 01:55 pm    
By poetdowns

Thank you. 
I appreciate that. 


Poet

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 18 Jun 2006 06:47 am    Post subject: Thunderbolts #103 captive villains
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Any help with identifying the various villains shown on the final two pages of TB 103? Obviously some of them are totally unidentifiable (since the top row recedes into the background and you end up with just humanoid figures). However, as far as I can make out: 

TOP ROW, starting nearest us:- 
1. Unknown in red/yellow costume. 
2. Zaran the Weapons Master 
3. Boomerang 
4. X-Ray of the U-Foes 
5. Pretty Persuasions of Psionex 
6. The Scarecrow 
7. Unknown in red with spikey mask. 
8. The Mimic (still with his powers) 
9. Apparently a re-powered Blob, which is presumably a continuity error 
10. Vector? 
Beyond that, they're unidentifiable. 

BOTTOM ROW:- 
1. Quicksand 
2-4. Randoms wearing old Beetle armour. 
5-8. The original Wrecking Crew line-up. 
9. Unknown lumpen brown creature. 
10. Unknown human-torch-style villain 
11-12: unidentifiable 
13. Klaw?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2006 07:51 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

#1 in the top row is Batroc. 
I agree that #10 in the top row is Vector.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2006 11:13 pm    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
7. Unknown in red with spikey mask. 
<<<

That's Smiling Tiger, from the Folding Circle, as seen in New Warriors. Fabian loves his old characters. 


Quote: 
>>>
9. Unknown lumpen brown creature. 
<<<

How did Clayface get into the Marvel Universe?! 


Quote: 
>>>
10. Unknown human-torch-style villain 
<<<

Perhaps another Folding Circle member, Silkscreen?

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jun 2006 08:42 am    
By jephyork
Director

Silk Fever, you mean? Could be. 

And it looked to me like the Blob was drawn lumpier than usual -- perhaps that's Tom Grummet's attempt to draw the folds of extra skin the Blob was left with after M-Day? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jun 2006 03:19 pm    
By ShadZ

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And it looked to me like the Blob was drawn lumpier than usual -- perhaps that's Tom Grummet's attempt to draw the folds of extra skin the Blob was left with after M-Day? 
<<<

That was my assumption too...
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 20 Jun 2006 01:24 pm    Post subject: Days of Future Now #1/New Excalibur #9 [SPOILERS for both]
By Somebody

Checking, does what is seen of New Excalibur #9 here push DoFN #1 into the same non-canonland as the rest of the series? 

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Tieri/Chamber/ChamberReveal01.html 

[For those coming in late, DoFN #1 was set in the present, the rest of the issues were set in the future, with successive ten-year jumps]

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2006 02:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Actually, only small portions of DoFN #1 were set "now". The rest was set "three weeks from now", meaning it was *already* in alt-future non-canonland. 

Now I'm really excited for New Excalibur #9, by the way.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 15 Jun 2006 02:05 am    Post subject: X Treme X-Men Savage Land
By meyakus

I do not see how this series fits in between any issues of the regular series that's featured in the first tpb. I was looking at those issues in the shop today and none of them said to be continued in XTreme X-Men Savage Land. So in between what issues of the regular X Treme X-Men does the Savage Land mini appear in as well as the annual?

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2006 05:32 am    
By Somebody

Storm's listing places the SL mini between 4 & 5, and the Annual between 9 & 10.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2006 07:09 am    
By meyakus

thx

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 21 Jun 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: Paint your wagon, the western handbook
By Enda80

The Western Handbook has some interesting implications. 

Thomas Thunderhead was not an alias of the current Red Wolf but a precursor. He was it seems active in the 1970's absolutely (e.g. not sliding time scale) or x-30 years ago. 

A Man Named Frank is definetly Earth-616 canon. The entry obliquely hints that Olivier may have been involved. 

Masked Raider: canon 

Living Totems: Strange Tales#75-76 canon to Earth-616 

Puma: hints of a predecessor to the Puma in the 1800's 

Monster From Hidden Valley: Clay Harder/Matt Hawk doctored reprint confusion reflected, mention of dinosaurs in Tierra del Fuego, Ghosts Ants of San Pedro, Green Men from Horro, Masked Phantoms fighting Frankenstein Monsters, 

Major Liberty mentioned in Alamo (oh, those Texans who fought to stay independant from Mexico so that they could have slaves) 

El Aguila: filled in history, also mention of Red Larabee and Yucoya-Tzin 

Sunset Riders treated as possibly an alternate Earth 

references to Dargoom, Haag, Klagg, Midnight Monster, Titano 

Rex Lane 

what about Avenger 1/2 advertisement with Red Wolf? 

Philadelphia Filly notes 1873 talk by Nathaniel Essex 

Reno Janes as Phantom Rider alternate Earth? 

Pariah: Lifestone tree? 

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7160/toc.html 

www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/aguilamontoyapaco.htm 
El Aguila's adventures took place in 1872 with Phantom Rider

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2006 07:20 pm    
By Enda80

http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/rex.html 
Rex Lane writes an article.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2006 09:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sorry, John, but the second half of this post just degenerates into gibberish. 


watching: city confidential

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2006 08:10 am    
By jephyork
Director

I was going to say something about that as well. For example: 

Quote: 
>>>
Rex Lane 
<<<

Yes? Rex Lane what? 

Quote: 
>>>
what about Avenger 1/2 advertisement with Red Wolf? 
<<<

I don't know, John, what ABOUT it? 

And this kind of cracked me up. 

Quote: 
>>>
Rex Lane writes an article. 
<<<

Ooh! Thrilling! 

John, we've said this to you many times, before. Read over your posts before posting -- make sure they're intelligible to someone who hasn't read the issue in question. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 23 Jun 2006 03:50 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four / Fantastic 4 '98 (Annual)
By ReyMort11

I could not find this listed in any of the FF characters' entries. Can anyone tell me where it fits in chronologically? Or is it not canon? I was surprised by its absence. I tried to use the search to look it up (but the search site is down at the moment) 

Thank you for any help!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2006 04:38 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Isn't that the one where Ben Grimm travels to an alternate dimension where the Marvel Universe aged in real time, (and thus, he meets an old Reed and Sue, and Franklin's all grown up, etc.)... 

Still, it should probably be in Ben's chronology...(he makes it back to the regular universe at the end of it). Unless I'm thinking of something else...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2006 04:41 pm    
By ReyMort11

I do not yet have it (saw it on the UHMCC). So I couldn't tell you! 

But if so, that would kind of explain why it wasn't entered in the first place, which I thought very strange! 

Thank you!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2006 06:15 pm    
By Arthur
Director

Kevin W. wrote 
>>>
Isn't that the one where Ben Grimm travels to an alternate dimension where the Marvel Universe aged in real time 
<<<

yup..that's the one 

Quote: 
>>>
Still, it should probably be in Ben's chronology 
<<<

And the rest of the FF plus Franklin.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 24 Jun 2006 01:26 pm    Post subject: Tales of the Thing
By scroogeMcduck

A simple question, I hope this is the proper forum. Does Tales of the Thing fit into continuity (the three part limited series)? Or is it part of the Marvel Age/Adventures continuity (owing to its "ALL AGES" imprint)? 

Thank you! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jun 2006 02:29 pm    
By Somebody

IIRC, it was soliicited as a MarvelAdv book, but had the standard, rather than MarvelAdv, trade dress on the issues.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jun 2006 05:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

There is no single "Marvel Age/Adventures continuity". Remember, Jubilee was Marvel Age. 

The bigger question Scrooge McDuck is asking is, "does 'Tales of the Thing' fit into continuity?" Even if it was published with the regular MU trade dress, it might not be canon. 

Unfortunately, I don't know the answer... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jun 2006 06:25 pm    
By scroogeMcDuck

You're right, I was using them interchangeably (Marvel Age/Adventures and Out of marvel U continuity); and again you're right, what I was more concerned with was the latter point, whether or not Tales of the Thing fits into continuity or out. 

Thank you! Hopefully someone will provide us with the answer!

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 17 Mar 2005 08:01 am    Post subject: Condundrum of the Week: Black Panther
By SKleefeld
Director

Alright, so Black Panther #2 came out this week and clearly shows T'Challa ascending to the mantle of Black Panther for the first time, and we've got some issues. 

First -- and I believe this is a minor point -- we see here for the first time T'Challa's sister and uncle. A little retroactive history evidently says that it was T'Challa's uncle who ruled Wakanda immediately after T'Chaka... apparently unti T'Challa was capabale enough to become leader himself. I don't know Panther's complete history, but I think this should slide in fairly innocuously. 

Now here's where things get a little... odd. The story flips back and forth between T'Challa's ascention to the throne and Ross detailing what he knows about Wakanda to the State Department. The two stories are presented in a way that suggests they're supposed to be happening concurrently, but that is highly unlikely to be the case. In #1, we have clearly identified that the Black Panther has defeated the Fantastic Four. So, the State Department bits clearly occur after FF 52. 

Now that leaves us with two options. 1) The Black Panther origin sequence occurs substantially out of step with the State Department meeting. Essentially, those sequences would almost be treated as flashbacks. 2) The Black Panther that appears in FF #52 was actually T'Challa's uncle, whom T'Challa himself defeated off-panel during the original story, so that when he unmasks in front of the FF, we actually see T'Challa, not the man who actually bested the FF. I haven't pulled out my books yet to see if this is even chronologically possible gvien the original story but, if this is the case, then Black Panther #2 would then occur more-or-less simultaneously with FF 52.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2005 10:16 am    
By DonCampbell

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Alright, so Black Panther #2 came out this week and clearly shows T'Challa ascending to the mantle of Black Panther for the first time, and we've got some issues. 

First -- and I believe this is a minor point -- we see here for the first time T'Challa's sister and uncle. A little retroactive history evidently says that it was T'Challa's uncle who ruled Wakanda immediately after T'Chaka... apparently unti T'Challa was capable enough to become leader himself. I don't know Panther's complete history, but I think this should slide in fairly innocuously. 
<<<

Aside from introducing T'Challa's never-before-mentioned (unnamed) uncle, sister (Princess Shuri) and cousin (T'Shan), this issue also showed us the Queen of Wakanda...who is described as being the mother of both Shuri and T'Challa. How can this be? As I understood it, T'Challa has already had two different mothers: his birth-mother N'Yami and his stepmother Ramonda. I suppose that this unnamed Queen could be a second stepmother, a woman T'Chaka married after Ramonda (supposedly) abandoned him, but Shuri and T'Challa seem to be about the same age (i.e. young adults) so that would mean that this new "mother" was around during N'Yami's time...which has never been mentioned before either. 

I must admit that I've been a bit confused about T'Challa's family. I had never heard anything about his mother until the year-long MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS storyline ("Panther's Quest") in which Ramonda was introduced. From what I recall, Ramonda was always described simply as T'Challa's mother and I assumed that she was meant to be his birth-mother. It wasn't until Priest's BP series that Ramonda was redefined as T'Challa's stepmother, a woman T'Chaka married after the death of his first wife, N'Yami, who was T'Challa's birth-mother. I've long wondered how necessary this redefinition of Ramonda's relationship to T'Challa was. Is there any story (prior to "Panther's Quest") in which T'Challa's mother is even mentioned? Or was N'Yami and her death just something that was "made up" for the Black Panther's entry in the first edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe (when the OHotMU creators realized that T'Challa's never-seen mother hadn't even been named?). 

I'm also curious about Jakarra (T'Challa's half brother from Jack Kirby's BP series) and how he fits into the Wakandan royal family. Since he was not T'Chaka's heir, I assume that he either was born after T'Challa or was born to a woman who was not married to T'Chaka. The identity of his mother is also uncertain. The Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe website states that his (unnamed) mother was from a different tribe than T'Challa and that Ramonda was his stepmother. However, the now-defunct Wakandan Embassy website identified Ramonda as his mother. Some clarification would be appreciated. 

I hope that future issues reveal how many times T'Chaka was married, how many children he had, the names of those children and the order in which they were born. So far we have at least three wives (N'Yami, Ramonda and Shuri's mother) and four children (T'Challa, Shuri and Jakarra plus his previously-adopted son Hunter). 


SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Now here's where things get a little... odd. The story flips back and forth between T'Challa's ascention to the throne and Ross detailing what he knows about Wakanda to the State Department. The two stories are presented in a way that suggests they're supposed to be happening concurrently, but that is highly unlikely to be the case. In #1, we have clearly identified that the Black Panther has defeated the Fantastic Four. So, the State Department bits clearly occur after FF 52. 

Now that leaves us with two options. 1) The Black Panther origin sequence occurs substantially out of step with the State Department meeting. Essentially, those sequences would almost be treated as flashbacks. 2) The Black Panther that appears in FF #52 was actually T'Challa's uncle, whom T'Challa himself defeated off-panel during the original story, so that when he unmasks in front of the FF, we actually see T'Challa, not the man who actually bested the FF. I haven't pulled out my books yet to see if this is even chronologically possible gvien the original story but, if this is the case, then Black Panther #2 would then occur more-or-less simultaneously with FF 52. 
<<<

For what it's worth, I feel that the Black Panther origin sequence is meant to be flashback-like, with the briefing by Ross to the NSA about how the Wakanda leader is chosen just serving as a framing sequence for the actual story of how T'Challa ascended to his father's throne. Remember, Ross begins his report on the Black Panther by identifying him as "T'Challa, son of T'Chaka." This would indicate that the BP origin sequence must occur before the NSA briefing and not concurrently, right? 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2005 10:20 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'd go with that. Sean's other option, claiming that the Black Panther who defeats the FF in FF #52 wasn't actually T'Challa, seems way too far-fetched and contradictory to the spirit of the original books. "It's a flashback" works for me. 

And perhaps T'Chaka did marry Shuri's mother after N'Yami died -- and Shuri and T'Challa are the same age because Shuri was from her mother's previous marriage, before T'Chaka? That would make her T'Challa's *step*sister, not related by blood at all. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2005 10:46 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I agree that the origin sequence must be flashback; Ross opens the issue by saying that T'Challa IS the Black Panther, so the scenes where he BECOMES the Black Panther must be a flashback. QED. 

I suggest, however, that trying to reconcile this series too closely with Silver Age continuity is a waste of time. Once this opening arc is complete, issue #7 is a HOUSE OF M crossover, and issues #8-9 are a crossover with the X-Men; the status of the book will presumably become clear (or at least clearer) at that point. I have a suspicion that HOUSE OF M is going to render the continuity issues moot.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jun 2005 05:58 am    
By meta

Hi. Sorry to ressurect dead threads with my first active post to the board, but Black Panther seems to be really wanting to make the chronologists work. Not only are there the nice fun family problems, but with the introduction of the other villains we seem to have even more fun to play with. 

We've got the Black Knight as a villain, so presumably this is Nathan Whitman not Dane, but if memory serves he was dead before the Rhino's first appearance over in Spider-Man. Then we've got a new Radioactive Man - Not Lu Chen - with an origin apparently predating Dr. Chen's by ten years. 

So..... has anyone been able to shed light on these yet?

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2005 10:52 pm    
By Col_Fury

Apparently this 'other' Radioactive Man is Russian. According to the newest issue(5) he was at Chernobyl, where he apparently got his powers. So now there's 2 big green glowing guys calling themselves 'Radioactive Man' from 2 different parts of the world. 

huh? 

This new RM's wife is in the issue explaing things, & mentions that the Chernobyl incident was 10 years ago. The Chernobyl incident was in 1986, so apparently it's the authors intent that the 'current day' story(where Klaw, Rhino, etc attacking Wakanda) takes place about ten years after 1986, meaning 1996. Also, this story apparently takes place in early day Marvel, possibly before his first appearance in FF, which would negate it's 'current day' status, and instead make issues 1-6 an origin story of sorts(explaing the title"Who is the Black Panther?") set in the past.(ten years ago) 

Also, in the newest ASM(521) Captain America off-handidly mentions he's been fighting 'new/segmented' Hydra for about ten years. 

So it looks like the current editing staff at Marvel is under the impression that Marvel has been around for 'ten' years, from FF 1 to now. 

And then there's the Black Knight question raised by meta . . .

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2005 11:52 pm    
By Col_Fury

More thoughts... 

I don't remember ever reading the origin story for Klaw so I don't know if any of these new Black Panther issues contradict anything. Would they pre-date any other Klaw appearances? He seems to have been a mercenary before he got his sound powers, & he has a cybernetic hand in these issues, possibly pre-dating his 'megaphone' hand? I don't know. 

If these issues are intended to happen before T'Challa's first appearance in FF, what does that mean for the Rhino? Wasn't he supposed to be fairly intelligent in his first appearance or two? Again, I haven't read a lot of the early Rhino stuff either, so I'm not sure where this would fit for him. Hopefully after his early ASM appearances, but I guess that depends on where these issues end up falling in the FF time line. Something to think about, obviously.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jun 2005 12:03 am    
By Col_Fury

Sorry, my brain's all over the place tonight. 

OK, so this story happens AFTER FF 52, because the recap shows the encounter with the team. So that would push back the Rhino appearances, but I'm still having trouble with Klaw, Black Knight & Batroc the Leaper. The first six issue arc has to be self contained because the next few issues feature House of M & X-Men crossovers, so we'll probably never see a "Ten years later" caption. 

With the Russian Radioactive Man explanation, the State Department meeting is happening concurrently with Klaw's raid on Wakanda, or at least that's the author's intent. The "origin" showing the lineage of the Black Panther is all flashbacks leading up to 'now', which is actually ten years ago, give or take.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jun 2005 11:57 am    
By meta

Okay. A quick spot of research into the origins of both Klaw and the Rhino reveal.... 

Ulysses Klaw made his first appearance in Fantastic Four #053. Klaw led a group of crooks to steal Vibranium from Wakanda. T'Chaka tried to stop him, but Klaw shot T'Chaka. A very young T'Challa fought back, stealing Klaw's sound blaster and turned it on Klaw smashing Klaw's hand in the blast. Klaw returned to Wakanda years later when T'Challa had become the Black Panther. With the help of the Fantastic Four and Wyatt Wingfoot T'Challa was able to defeat Klaw, who decided to take one final experiment with his sound machine, throwing his own body into it and transforming into a being of living sound. 

As for Rhino, his first appearance was Amazing Spider-Man #041, only a couple of months (real time) after Klaw's first appearance. He had originally been grafted with the Rhino skin by the Russian government but turned against them figuring that way he could earn more money. He attempted to kidnap John Jameson to sell him to the highest bidder (Shortly after his exposure to strange alien bacteria), but was beaten by Spider-Man twice, the second time his Rhino hide being melted off of his body.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jun 2005 03:33 pm    
By Col_Fury

OK, so it looks like Black Panther #3 has a bit of retconning in it. Great. 

Originally, it was Klaw & some crooks trying to steal Vibranium, & T'Chaka dies trying to stop them. 

Now, it's Klaw hired by Government officials to assasinate T'Chaka, so they can draw up a contract to buy vibranium. 

The end result is similar, but the details differ wildly. There's absolutely no mention of sound machines or sound powers in the new Black Panther series. Years ago, Klaw assasinates T'Chaka with machine guns. A young T'Challa fights back, shooting off Klaw's arm with said machine guns. Klaw is then experimented on for "close to a decade" & is given cybernetic enhancements, no sound powers mentioned. He then goes back to Wakanda, enlisting Rhino, Black Knight, & Batroc the Leaper to invade presumedably for revenge against T'Challa for the loss of his arm, eye, etc. Apparently, the assasination of T'Chaka happened after Chernobyl, if Klaw was being worked on for close to a decade, & Radioactive Man's wife referred to Chernobyl as 'ten years ago'. 

As far as FF 52 & 53 go, I have to assume that this series happens 'between' these issues. The State Department meeting is referring to a fight with the Fantastic Four, but no mention of how long ago. We can assume it was recent. But Klaw would have had to get a sound machine, a megaphone hand, etc after this series, but before FF 53? I haven't read these issues, so I don't even know if that would work. Issue 6 may help with this, but from what we've seen so far, I doubt it. I guess Klaw could mold his hand into a megaphone, it's shown to have morphing abilities....I'll just have to wait for #6. 

I guess Rhino in these issues would have to go before his ASM appearances, after he got his suit. I'm not sure how ASM lines up with FF chronologically, but it looks like FF 52 is before ASM 41. 

What do you think?

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jul 2005 03:31 pm    
By meta

The story doesn't fit between FF #52 and 53 without some serious Retconning. 

The original Story had the FF and Wyatt Wingfoot being invited to Wakanda by the Black Panther where in true super hero fashion the pair fight, Black Panther 'testing the strenghts of the FF', in FF #052. The FF and Wyatt are able to fight off the Panther and he tells them it had all been a test and unmasks, revealing his true identity. Then next issue the FF are still in Wakanda and Black Panther tells the story of how years before Klaw had attacked Wakanada with a group of thieves, killed T'Chaka and lost his hand. As the story unfolds Klaw is coincidently once more attacking Wakanda with a group of hard sound animals created by his sound blaster, it's when he's beaten then that Klaw leaps into his machine becoming a being of living sound. 

In other words for BP001-006 to fit between FF 052 and 053 The FF would have to happen to return to the Baxter building quickly for some unknown mission while Klaw and his minions invade Wakanda, and then they come flying back to hear the second half of the Panther's story and Klaw attacks Wakanda a third time, this time with his sound blaster.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Aug 2005 01:20 pm    
By meta

*sigh* 

So Black Panther #006 came out today, and it would seem that it screws all hope of fitting the story into Black Panther's past. As I posted before Klaw's original story had him fighting the Black Panther and the Fantastic Four, leaping into his sound blaster and becoming the being of living sound who went on to terrorise Black Panther, Fantastic Four, and all the folks on the Secret Wars world. 

But now, it seems, when invading Wakanda and fighting the Black Panther..... Klaw dies. I know death isn't the set back it used to be in the comic book world but, well, this is a fairly large alteration to continuity, esspecially if Joe Q wants to keep his dead means dead card.....

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Aug 2005 02:15 am    
By faz500

I have just sat down and read this (abysmal) series and I am scratching my head... It does not fit into continuity at all. In my own personal chronology I have discounted it. What is the MCP view on this book, or at least these first 6 issues?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Aug 2005 01:52 pm    
By Col_Fury

I'm working on an analysis of the first six issues, & I'm re-reading the Fantastic Four issues where the Black Panther makes his debut to see if it can work. It's not looking hopeful, but we'll find out soon!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Aug 2005 04:21 am    
By Col_Fury

Black Panther 1-6 reads like an abandoned movie script(with some tweaks), much like Daredevil: Man Without Fear & the recent Strange miniseries. Both of these are considered non-cannon, & it looks like this will be, too. Here we go... 

Fantastic Four 52: The group is invited to Wakanda, where they've never been. They fight the Black Panther, who they've never met. The Black Panther wins, kind of. The Black Panther is T'Challa, son of T'Chaka. 

Fantastic Four 53: Picks up where 52 left off. T'Challa shows the FF around Wakanda, tells Reed about Vibranium, which he's never heard of. T'Challa tells the FF about his really cool dad, T'Chaka, then gives the group a history lesson on Ulysses Klaw, the Master of Sound! Klaw is a guy who made this really neat sound machine, but was looking for Vibranium to perfect it, but non of his collegues believed in Vibranium. Klaw went to Wakanda to steal it & killed T'Chaka. A young T'Challa then beat up one of Klaw's goons & shot Klaw with one of his sound weapons, shattering Klaw's hand. This all happened 10 years ago... to the day! Not suprisingly, Klaw attacks Wakanda with sound creatures as T'Challa finishes his story. A fight ensues, Black Panther defeats Klaw, then Klaw jumps inhis really big sound machine to become a being of pure energy. 

Fantastic Four 54: Picks up where 53 left off...kind of. The FF are still in Wakanda, hanging out & having fun the whole issue. 

Fantastic Four 55: The FF are back home as the issue opens, apparently just getting back from Wakanda becuase they're checking their messages & mentioning their absence. 

Fantastic Four 56: Klaw attacks! He's now a being of sound energy, & mentions that he thinks the Black Panther may be with the FF in New York. Why would he think that? Who knows? Maybe his brain is mushy from his recent transformation.... 

I was hoping to put the bulk of Black Panther 1-6 between FF 54 & 56. The attack where Klaw, Rhino, Batroc, etc invade Wakanda doesn't take very long, less than a day. This could easily fit in the gap between FF 54 & 56. Also, when Klaw 'dies' at the end of BP 6, that *could* have been when his 'Sound Being' powers manifested bts, ie: his normal body dies, & the energy he exposed himself to in FF 53 takes over & revives him in a new form. But... 

In issue 3 Klaw has assembled a team to invade Wakanda, including the Rhino. Klaw mentions that the Rhino has already fought the Hulk, which isn't until Hulk 104. The Hulk appears in Silver Surfer 4, which is before Hulk 104. Silver Surfer 4 happens after FF 77. So the Rhino fought the Hulk after FF 77. I suppose it's possible for them to have fought before this, but I seem to remember Hulk 104 being their first meeting. 

The government briefing in Black Panther 1-6 is obviously early day Marvel Universe. The Americans don't know who the Black Panther is, so therefore he's not an Avenger yet. It's like the Fantastic Four just 'discovered' Wakanda, & they're trying to figure out how to deal with them. So they decide to assassinate Wakanda's leader by hiring this awesome assassin named Klaw! & send in a deathlok team of zombie cyborgs! The government briefing could be taking place while the FF are vacationing in Wakanda as seen in FF 54. 

Klaw being a cyborg could be looked at as information we didn't know in FF 53. Him being an assassin could also be information we didn't know, but the death of T'Chaka & T'Challa's retaliation are total contradictions between FF & BP, as covered in earlier posts. 

The Russian Radioactive Man, covered in earlier posts, dies in issue 6. 

Batroc the Leaper shouldn't be a problem. 

The Black Knight died in TOS 73 which is after FF@ 3, but that's not saying much because FF@ 3 is between FF 43 & 44. How long after FF 44 is TOS 73? Without saying for certain, it looks like this Black Knight dies before FF 53, which would make it a problem for him to invade Wakanda after he's dead. 

Taking all this into account, we could have this: 

Wakanda 5th Century (BP 1) 
Wakanda 19th Century (BP 1) 
Wakanda 1944 (BP 1) 
'10 years ago': T'Chaka dies(FF 53) 
Klaw is experimented on for 10 years (BP 3) 
the FF visit Wakanda (FF 52) 
Klaw attacks Wakanda, jumps in his machine (FF 53), apparently doesn't do anything so he goes back to the states (bts) 
American Government holds a staff meeting, decides to assassinate T'Challa by hiring the assassin, Klaw (BP 1-2) 
the FF chill out in Wakanda while Klaw assembles his team (BP 1-3) 
the FF goes home (FF 55) 
Klaw invades Wakanda (BP 4-6) 
Klaw dies(BP 6), reborn as sound being(bts), attacks FF(FF 56) 

We're already ignoring BP 3's version of how T'Chaka dies, as it's incorrectly retelling how it happened as presented in FF 53. So do we also ignore *all* of Klaw's flashbacks, ie: Klaw being operated on for 10 years? If that's the case, do we also ignore him being an assassin? He wasn't hired to kill T'Chaka(BP) because he was looking for Vibranium to perfect his sound machine.(FF) If that's the case, the government wouldn't have hired him to assassinate T'Challa 10 years later, because he's not an assassin, negating the bulk of these 6 issues. If that's the case, we don't have to worry about the Rhino or the Black Knight, because it didn't happen. 

So do I even need to bother analysing these issues at all, or do I just analyse the parts that don't involve Klaw?

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2005 09:37 pm    
By Col_Fury

Over in the 4 #21 subject: 

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
On the contrary, I'd have a bigger problem with it, if they had referenced the current Panther storyline. Recognizing the way it really happened, makes it that much easier to ignore the Panther quagmire. 

The Panther story can't work. There are too many knots to untie.  
<<<

Which answers one question, but raises another. If BP4 #1-6 are non-cannon,(which I agree with, by the way) how will this book eventually be listed? Just skip the first 6 issues, then start with #7? What about the family issues brought up earlier? Or any of the supporting cast? Will Shuri's first appearance be some other issue, if she ever pops up? Or will it be #1 with a non-cannon note next to it? Has this ever happened before, where part of a series is cannon & the rest isn't?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2005 09:58 pm    
By Arthur
Director

Col_fury wrote: 
>>>
Has this ever happened before, where part of a series is cannon & the rest isn't? 
<<<

ClanDestine... 
#1-8 are canon 
#9-12 are not

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2005 09:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
If BP4 #1-6 are non-cannon,(which I agree with, by the way) how will this book eventually be listed? Just skip the first 6 issues, then start with #7? 
<<<

Remains to be seen. 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Will Shuri's first appearance be some other issue, if she ever pops up? Or will it be #1 with a non-cannon note next to it? 
<<<

If BP4 1-6 are not canon, then BP4 1 won't be listed in anyone's chronology. 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Has this ever happened before, where part of a series is cannon & the rest isn't? 
<<<

Good question. For a non-serial title, yes, definitely. But in the case of a serial title, devoted to a character, or group.... 

Gosh, you know, I want to say there are one or two examples, but nothing jumps into my head. 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2005 10:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, Arthur. 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2005 10:06 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thanks for the quick response, guys!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Sep 2005 10:33 pm    
By Col_Fury

I love Reggie Hudlin! He's the best! 

BP4 1-6 are now, irrevocably, canon. Issue 8, a cross-over with X-Men 175, mentions the events of those issues, and an editor's note(this is the first time we've seen one of these in how long, and they use it here? For this? For the love of...) says "See Black Panther #1-6!" Great. 

Also, the time-line has been shifted. Klaw's attack on Wakanda was intercut with a government meeting discussing Black Panther in the early days of the Marvel Universe, suggesting that said attack was also in the early MU. Now, those events are recent. Here's a recap: 

Dr. Paine(how original) set up shop in Niganda, started his expirements. Wakanda couldn't do anything until Niganda attacked Wakanda. The mutated animals only popped up recently, noted here & in X-Men 175. Niganda attacked Wakanda*, "We then removed M'Butu from power and took action against this facility." "Once war broke out, the country's power grid quickly failed. Before the factory's backup power generators kicked in, some of Paine's creations got loose and started eating people." *See Black Panther #1-6!-Editor. 

So, Reggie, which is it? I guess this means we don't have to worry about Rhino fighting the Hulk before he's supposed to, but what's going on with the Black Knight? Is this a new one? 

It now looks like I'll have to analyze BP4 1-6, because it's apparently in the current day MU.(well, some of it) I'm almost at a good breaking point with M/CP, so look for it after that.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Sep 2005 10:39 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
It now looks like I'll have to analyze BP4 1-6, because it's apparently in the current day MU. 
<<<

Let us know how that works out. 


watching: angel

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 07:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, unless HOUSE OF M turns out to effect some retroactive changes to history, there's simply no way of making BLACK PANTHER #1-6 fit without accepting them as an outright retcon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 03:31 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
BP4 1-6 are now, irrevocably, canon. Issue 8, a cross-over with X-Men 175, mentions the events of those issues, and an editor's note(this is the first time we've seen one of these in how long, and they use it here? For this? For the love of...) says "See Black Panther #1-6!" Great. 
<<<

Even this doesn't mean that BP4 1-6 are canonical. It might be another case of Man Without Fear Syndrome: the issues themselves are not canonical, but broadly similar events must have occured because they're referenced by dialogue and flashbacks in canonical stories. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 05:46 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I call that "Marvel: the End" syndrome now. 

Don't even get me started on that, either.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 07:41 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The difference being that "Marvel: The End" fit into established continuity as originally published (with minor errors, like Red Lotus's presence with the X-Treme X-Men team). As far as I'm concerned, any comments made by Marvel employees or freelancers can't be used as the sole proof of canonicity (or lack thereof) unless the books themselves support it. If later stories or Official Handbooks state that MU: The End isn't canonical, then it's not canonical; until then, it is. (Of course, that's my POV; as I understand it, the official MCP policy differs.) 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2005 09:58 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
BP4 1-6 are now, irrevocably, canon.  
<<<

Until the next ret-con, that is.  We tend to stick to the original version, unless the ret-con is proven to stick. Has a retcon ever proven to stick?!?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Sep 2005 12:43 am    
By Col_Fury

Personally, I don't think these issues should be considered canon. However, I'll provide an analysis for BP4 1-6 to see if we can determine if they are. 

The Klaw/T'Chaka flashback can't work, but perhaps it's Klaw telling an 'embellished' version of events to make himself sound more like a bad@$$?  

The invasion of Wakanda has been pushed up to 'current day' Marvel, so that gives these books a little more canonocity leverage, but what about the family issues? I must warn you all, I'm not the biggest Black Panther fan. I've never read any Jungle Action issues, & I didn't follow the Priest volume, so I'll need some help there. 

Ultimately I think this will be a waste of my time, because I don't think they are canon. But there's some pretty goofy crap that is, so there you go. We'll find out soon enough, I suppose.  

Quote: 
>>>
the issues themselves are not canonical, but broadly similar events must have occured because they're referenced by dialogue and flashbacks in canonical stories.  
>>>

This may turn out to be the case, but at least we'll know which 'similar events' are being referred to, I guess.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Sep 2005 03:24 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
BP4 1-6 are now, irrevocably, canon.  
<<<

Until the next ret-con, that is.  We tend to stick to the original version, unless the ret-con is proven to stick. Has a retcon ever proven to stick?!? 
<<<

Well, the stories from the Hulk magazine that were intended to be continuity implants, were later said to have been films made by Bereet the Krylorian.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2005 02:36 am    
By Col_Fury

Quote: 
>>>
Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
It now looks like I'll have to analyze BP4 1-6, because it's apparently in the current day MU. 
<<<

Let us know how that works out. 
<<<

The analysis is up, & after untying a few knots(& cutting one out), I no longer see why these books can't be canon. Now that I've had a chance to streamline some of the major points, here's the shorter version: 

1. Forget the interviews with Hudlin when he was hyping the launch of the book. Obviously, he didn't know the terminology. 'Revamp' 'Reboot' & Year One' don't apply here. "Black Panther isn't an Avenger" & "Black Panther doesn't know Everett Ross" aren't addressed in the books, the subjects aren't even brought up, even in the intro pages. 

2. We're shown 3 different time frames in relation to T'Challa & the Wakandans, but only 1 in relation to the NSA meeting,* which leads me to believe that Klaw's attack on Wakanda(BP4 4-6) are set in the current day MU. This unties the Rhino knot & the 'Klaw attacking Wakanda when it's not possible because the FF are there' knot, & the 'Klaw's enhancements/he's an assassin' knot, because it's happening 'now,' not 'then.' 

3. The FlashBack depicting Klaw killing T'Chaka & Klaw's history is told by Klaw. This knot is cut out, because Klaw is lying, or 'remembering' it wrong. This doesn't retcon anything, because it didn't happen 'Klaw's' way. He was just telling an embellished story to Batroc. Also, Klaw's enhancements & new job as an assassin are recent developments, therefore not retconning every appearance he's made including his first appearance. 

*Thank you, John Romita Jr. The 3 time frames are 1. T'Challa becoming Black Panther,(BP4 2) 2. A recently coronated T'Challa,(BP4 3) & 3. Current Day T'Challa.(BP4 4-6) Some examples: 
T'Challa: 1. Teenager, thin build, 'young' face. 2. Still thin, more muscular, young adult face. 3. Beefier build, adult face. 
Uncle: 1. Shaved head, no facial hair. 2. Tightly cut grey hair, goatee. 3. Still grey-haired, more shaggy. 
W'Kabi: 2. Younger, thin build. 3. More muscular, thicker, older face. 
T'Shan: 1. Teenager, thin. 3. More muscular, thicker face. 
Shuri: 1. Young teenager. 3. More, um, developed. Endowed? 

However, Everett Ross & Dondi in the NSA meeting have consistant hair cuts & age appearances. There are no 'shifts' in time frames depicted for these characters like there are for T'Challa & his supporting cast. 

In summation, the only retcon was Klaw's FlashBacks. The rest, now in Current Day MU, don't retcon anything. Viewing it this way, I think these books are canon. What do you guys think?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2005 09:07 am    
By BobMM

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
In summation, the only retcon was Klaw's FlashBacks. The rest, now in Current Day MU, don't retcon anything. Viewing it this way, I think these books are canon. What do you guys think? 
<<<

So would that make the new, Russian Radioactive Man a modern age character? Or is he part of Klaw's flashback, in which case he doesn't necessarily exist at all?

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2005 11:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The problem with this approach is that Klaw quite plainly isn't a being of living sound, so unless you're suggesting that there are two Klaws wandering around, I don't see how this can be seen as remotely consistent with previous history.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2005 12:35 pm    
By ShadZ

Maybe we should assume Klaw has been "cured" of being a sound being and restored to flesh & blood since the last time we saw him. Not so much of a strech -- whenever a dead character shows up alive we assume a ressurection...
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2005 01:55 pm    
By Col_Fury

BobMM said: 
>>>
So would that make the new, Russian Radioactive Man a modern age character? 
<<<

Yes. He only appeared in the attack on Wakanda, not in any FlashBacks. 


Shadz said: 
>>>
Maybe we should assume Klaw has been "cured" of being a sound being and restored to flesh & blood since the last time we saw him. Not so much of a strech -- whenever a dead character shows up alive we assume a ressurection... 
<<<

I'm assuming as much. If that's the case, it doesn't negate previous appearances, & he's a villain! Stuff like this happens all the time without explanations to villains...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Sep 2005 06:42 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Rather than try and sledgehammer this story into a continuity where it plainly doesn't want to fit, I'm inclined to reserve judgment until the HANDBOOK gets around to dealing with one of these characters. (Which shouldn't be *that* long, given rumours that they're doing a full-scale A to Z in 2006.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2005 02:06 pm    
By Somebody

Well, Klassic Klaw's seemingly appearing in New Avengers, according to this preview page

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2006 04:31 am   
By Enda80

On the Wakandan Royal family, in The Marvel Comics Index Part 9B, published in April 1982-before the first version of The Official Handbook- George Olskhevsky notes that T'Chaka's wife died while T'Challa was still a child, and the chief of the Wakandas took a second wife, who became the mother of Jakarra. He (GO) also notes that T'Chaka had evidently many in-laws from his marriages, with some of their children Joshua Itobo, Khanata, Ishanta, and Zuni. 

Olshevsky also states that N'Baza, the vizier, appointed another member of the Wakandan ruling family (whose name remains unrevealed) to serve as interim Black Panther. 

Anyway, this shows that the Official Handbook did not invent the death of T'Challa's mother, if anyone did, GO did in his index.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 21 Dec 2005 04:33 pm    Post subject: Mr. Sinister in UX 39/2 and UX 389
By wolframbane

In UX 39/2, Professor X met with the optometrist that prescribed Scott his ruby quartz glasses. XF 39 revealed that it was Mr. Sinister that had created the glasses for Scott at the orphanage. I was wondering if this optometrist is possibly one of Sinister's identities. 

Also, in UX 389, Xavier and Moira met while attending an Oxford lecture by a reknowned geneticist, whom Xavier found himself unable to read the mind of. Was this Sinister?

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2005 05:25 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Possibly, but you couldn't go any higher than that.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2005 01:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

From memory, I believe that Excalibur v3 #14 reveals that Sinister DID teach Xavier and Moira at Oxford. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2006 07:19 pm    
By garbonzo

Was it ever revealed that Sinister was the boy "Nate" at the orphanage as well? I remember Sinister appearing in issues of Classic X-Men as well as a boy named "Nate" who was particularly interested in Scott. Whenever anyone tried to interfere and make Scott's life better, Nate got in the way.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2006 07:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yep, that was him. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2006 04:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yes, they did confirm that "Nate" was definitely Sinister. It's in an issue of X-FACTOR during Inferno, from memory.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2006 08:40 am    
By Ocean Doot

Yeah, there's a cute moment in X-Factor #38, in which Maddie says that she and Scott named their son "Nate" after Maddie's father, but that Scott initially objected because "Nate" was the name of the jerk from the orphanage. 

And she doesn't realize as she says this that those two guys are the *same Nate*! 

(That said, I think it was a pre-Inferno issue of X-Factor -- like #33 or thereabouts -- that explicitly stated that Nate and Sinister were definitely the same person.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2006 09:01 am    
By garbonzo

wow. and i put two and two together all on my own. i feel special!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2006 11:59 am    
By Enda80

Ocean Doot wrote: 
>>>
Yeah, there's a cute moment in X-Factor #38, in which Maddie says that she and Scott named their son "Nate" after Maddie's father, but that Scott initially objected because "Nate" was the name of the jerk from the orphanage. 

And she doesn't realize as she says this that those two guys are the *same Nate*! 

(That said, I think it was a pre-Inferno issue of X-Factor -- like #33 or thereabouts -- that explicitly stated that Nate and Sinister were definitely the same person.) 
<<<

Maddie's father was named Nate? I know Sinister created her (oh, everyone must have their own Jean Grey clone), but was he bold enough to give her false memories of her parents? 

Did Maddie have false memories of a childhood as well? What if she tried to contact an old chum from her youth?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2006 10:18 pm    
By Col_Fury

If I remember right, she had amnesia from any point in her past before the plane crash she was found in, but could remember bits here and there. The one or two childhood bits(her friend dying in her arms, etc) were cribbed from Jean Grey's past. So no, Mr. Sinister didn't give her a complete set of memories. He just let her think that her dad's name was Nate. 

That's if I remember correctly...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2006 11:31 am    
By Ocean Doot

"but could remember bits here and there. The one or two childhood bits(her friend dying in her arms, etc) were cribbed from Jean Grey's past. So no, Mr. Sinister didn't give her a complete set of memories. He just let her think that her dad's name was Nate. " 

That's probably the best explanation, though I wonder if it was ever really stated explicitly in the comics? I think Enda's got a point -- if anything, shouldn't Maddie have thought her parents' names were John and Elaine? (I guess that would be a bit too on the nose...) 

You know, the whole thing about Sinister disguising himself as a kid named Nate ... does anyone know if this was always Claremont's intent? I know it's the only explanation now, but I always thought it would be cool if it had turned out that the kid was a real kid, and the "Mr. Sinister" persona was the fake, "disguise" identity -- or perhaps just some freaky projection of the kid's subconscious that took on a life of its own. 

(Sorry, btw, for the non-chronological nature of these thoughts...)

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2006 11:44 am    
By jephyork
Director

IIRC, Claremont's original idea was that Mr. Sinister was a kid, who never aged, and had the ability to either morph into an adult or project the illusion of being an adult. That's why his supervillain name was so over-the-top -- it was the sort of name a kid would pick. 

That said, I like "mad geneticist" much, much better. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2006 12:19 pm    
By Ocean Doot

Ugh. I don't. 

But thanks, Jeph, for the info! Love the original Claremont idea.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2006 02:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The little kid Nate we saw in Classic X-Men #42-43, then, was originally supposed to be Sinister's true form. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2006 02:26 pm    
By Ocean Doot

Yeah, that's actually the impression I got the first time I read those two issues. It didn't read as "super-villain disguised as kid," it read as if it was a genuinely evil kid, and Sinister was the one who seemed like some sort of theatrically assumed persona. It's cool to know that this was indeed the idea.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2006 08:33 pm    
By Enda80

Ocean Doot wrote: 
>>>
"but could remember bits here and there. The one or two childhood bits(her friend dying in her arms, etc) were cribbed from Jean Grey's past. So no, Mr. Sinister didn't give her a complete set of memories. He just let her think that her dad's name was Nate. " 

That's probably the best explanation, though I wonder if it was ever really stated explicitly in the comics? I think Enda's got a point -- if anything, shouldn't Maddie have thought her parents' names were John and Elaine? (I guess that would be a bit too on the nose...) 
<<<

Now that I think of it, Sinister must have set up an elaborate trail of false documents for Madelyne Pryor. This reminds me of how over at DC, the Earth-2 Catwoman claimed to be a stewardess who lost her memory due to a plane crash and wanered away to become the Catwoman. Then B and B#197 reveals that she dissembled when she related that tale, it was all a lie; lucky for Selina Kyle that the Earth-2 Batman never thought of asking the Earth-2 Catwoman which airline she worked for, and then checking with said airline or the FAA as to any plane crashes.

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 26 Jun 2006 03:46 pm    Post subject: H2 160
By Dhall

Llyra only appears in FB in H2 160, so her listing needs to be changed. 

SUB-M 50 
H2 160 
ASM 213 

should be: 

SUB-M 50 
H2 160-FB 
ASM 213

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2006 07:53 pm    
By Arthur
Director

Seing as how the Flashback scene, H2 160 (11:4), shows Llyra and Tiger Shark fleeing after killing Namor's Father, it should be placed immediately following SUB-M 46 where Leonard Mackenzie dies: 


LLYRA/LLYRA MORRIS 

SUB-M 46 
**H2 160-FB (replacing the current H2 160 listing) 
SUB-M 50 
ASM 213 

The scene also shows Namor lifting his father's body out of the water, so additionally: 

MCKENZIE, LEONARD 

SUB-M 45 
SUB-M 46 
**H2 160-FB 


SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 

SUB-M 45 
*SUB-M 46 (1-21:7) 
**H2 160-FB 
*SUB-M 46 (21:8) 
SUB-M 47

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jun 2006 05:55 am    
By Dhall

Shouldn't this be changed for Tiger Shark's listing as well?

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jun 2006 07:52 am    
By Arthur
Director

already listed ( there are further FB scenes with Tiger Shark, i.e. 11:5 - 11:7); 

TIGER SHARK/TODD ARLISS 
. 
. 
. 
SUB-M 46 
H2 160-FB 
H2 160

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 28 Jun 2006 09:07 pm    Post subject: updated spider-woman chronology
By tonicphx

does anyone have an updated list of Jessica Drews appearances after the ones listed in the databank?

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 29 Jun 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject: Magneto Chronology corrections
By wolframbane

While researching my X-Men Timeline, I noticed a possible error in the listing for Magneto. Below is how it is currently listed. 

UX 161 
CX 19/2 
GENX 10 
XMF 3 

In GENX 10, Magneto (as Erik Lensherr) meets Sean Cassidy while on a case. This occurs 20 years before the issue, which occurs about YEAR 18 on the Marvel Calendar. This places the event during YEAR -2. 

In CX 19/2, Magneto is in Rio de Janeiro and reads about Charles Xavier in the newspaper about mutant rights. Xavier never became a world reknowned mutant rights advocate until after he graduated university in London, England with a Ph.D. in psychology (this was the final university he had attended, just before becoming a mutant rights advocate). He awoke Jean Grey from her catatonia in YEAR -1 (based on her birth year of YEAR -14 implied from OM/IX 7 [age 24 in YEAR 10], and that she was brought out of her 3 year coma at age 13 from BIZADV 27). Thus Xavier must have graduated no later than YEAR -1 (before awakening Jean), then become a mutant rights advocate, meaning Magneto could not have read the article any earlier than YEAR -1. 

Therefore, if GENX 10 occurs in YEAR -2, and CX 19/2 occurs in YEAR -1 or later, then the revised Magneto listing should be: 

UX 161 
GENX 10 
CX 19/2 
XMF 3

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2006 03:48 pm    
By Somebody

Quote: 
>>>
In GENX 10, Magneto (as Erik Lensherr) meets Sean Cassidy while on a case. This occurs 20 years before the issue, which occurs about YEAR 18 on the Marvel Calendar. This places the event during YEAR -2. 
<<<

That's Calendar-logic. For MCP purposes, when there aren't explicit issue references included, **roughly** halve the number of calendar years to get an **idea** of where to put it, then take a good hard look at the issues that puts it between to see if it fits, if not, move it backwards or forwards as necessary. The latter part is by far the more important.

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 07 Jun 2006 12:43 pm    Post subject: FCBD 2006 : X-Men/Runaways
By JD

FREE COMIC BOOK DAY 2006 
Published in May 2006 


First Story : FREE 
By Brian K. Vaughan & Skottie Young 

Characters : 
- The Runaways : Nico Minoru/Sister Grimm, Gertrude Yorkes/Arsenic 2, Molly Hayes/Bruiser/Princess Powerful, Chase Stein/Talkback, Victor Mancha/Victorious, Old Lace 
- The Astonishing X-Men : Cyclops, Emma Frost, Beast, Wolverine, Shadowcat, Lockheed, Colossus 

The Runaways have lost Old Lace and are searching for it in Los Angeles. The X-Men show and want to take Molly with them. Fight. Emma Frost finds Old Lace, stops the fight, and everyone goes home. The End. 

Continuity notes : 
- There's an explicit reference to the Molly/Wolverine fight in RUNAWAYS vol.2 #12, so it goes after that. 
- There are some vague references to Decimation ("It's even more dangerous for our kind than before", says Colossus). Anyway, RUN2 #12 was post-Decimation. 

Where to place it ? 
- Chronogically, it was published between RUN2 #14 and #15. It can fit there, but it's in the middle of a story arc which starts with #14. Also, there's been interviews with Vaughan saying that this story happens before "Parental Guidance" (the arc in #14-18). 
- There's no possible gap between #13 and #14 (Molly is grounded in #14 after their "last fight" where she disappeared, which is chronicled in #13). 
- There's a big nice convenient gap between #12 and #13. Frankly, this is where I would place it. 
- As for the X-Men... Well, their chronology is such a mess... Anywhere it fits, I guess. 

Second Story : COMIC BOOK FREE-FOR-ALL 
By Chris Eliopoulos & Mark Sumerak 

Er, it's one of those Franklin Richards strips. Do we chronologise them ? Anyway, it features Franklin, Sue Storm and HERBIE. 
Franklin brings to life the baddies in one of his comic books, and defeats them by bringing in the heroes from said comic book. 

Third Story : 
A 3-page preview of Marvel Adventures The Avengers #1 (pages 10-13). Out of Continuity. 

Fourth Story : ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN SAGA 
A 11-page text recap of Ultimate Spider-Man. Nothing to chronologise. 


Next up : Sentinel v2. Coming soon, honest.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 12:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JD, for the analysis and for the theory that this occurs between RUN2 12 and 13. I knew it had to be after RUN2 12, but did have the clues to place it more specifically than that.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 01:24 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

What are we doing with the Franklin Richards strips, out of interest? There doesn't seem to be any obvious reason why they CAN'T be in continuity. They're published in mainstream Marvel comics (well, frequently, anyway) and an unconventional style has never been a barrier to admission in the past. I'm inclined to include them, although I suspect it's largely academic since they'll never be referenced anywhere else.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2006 03:29 pm    
By Somebody

They're kind of fiddly (although I don't see why HERBIE's a problem, as some suggested per a legged-version appearing in MK4, since there were umpteen floating around doing various tasks in Fin Fang Four). You've got current-costumes for the F4, the Baxter Building, a non-powered Franklin and Katie Power living in NYC who Franklin apparently knows poorly if at all. 

Nothing irreconcilable, even with Katie (presumably, after living in Seattle per PP2, her and Franklin haven't talked for a while and may have fallen out - although, again per that mini, for them to be in the same class Franklin would need to be a year or two older), but fiddly to find a decent spot.

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 20 Jun 2006 07:06 am    Post subject: Spider-Man in Venedig (Panini Comics)
By Frederic Krier

Spider-Man in Venedig: Das Geheimnis des Glases 
[Spider-Man in Venice: The Secret of the Glass] 
Marvel Graphic Novels nn. [8] 
Published by Marvel Deutschland/Panini Comics 

Originally published as: Spiderman a Venezia: Il segreto del vetro in LUomo Ragno #373 (Marvel Italia/Panini) in 2003; also published in French in graphic novel form as The Secret of the Glass 

W: Tito Faraci, A: Giorgio Gavazzano 

Appearances: Spider-Man [Peter Parker], Green Goblin [photograph only; See comments], J. Jonah Jameson, Green Goblin imitator, Hulk imitator, Carnage imitator, Leone Grimani [1st], Count Alvise Gianus, a 16th Century Doge of Venice, 16th Century Night Squad members [Schergen der Nacht], several unnamed citizens of Venice (both 16th Century and present day) and/or visitors of the Venice Carnival 

Synopsis: 
Page 1: The story opens with a picture of Spider-Man having webbed up Green Goblin (depicted with what looks like a ladies handbag); Jonah criticizes the photograph as looking like it was taken using the preset button. He believes he ought to fire Parker, but instead sends him of to Venice, as he has been offered a flight ticket for promotional reasons, but cant go because of his editorial duties. Peter likes the idea of not having to face costumed people for a while and agrees (we see a though balloon of Spider-Man fighting against a big, bulky guy in yellow and silver, with an axe, as well as something looking like a vampire frog; I dont believe either of these has actually appeared in a comic). 
Page 2-3: Its carnival in Venice, much to Peters disappointment. After he nearly gets run over by people in Green Goblin, Hulk and Carnage costumes, he leaves San Marco Square and takes a ride on a ferry to get away from the crowd. 
Page 4: On the ferry, Peter meets Leone Grimani, history teacher at the University of Venice, who used to live in New Haven. 
Page 5-6: Grimani takes Peter to the cimetary of San Michele and shows him the body of the vampirish-looking Count Alvise Gianus from the Family (or clan? House? It says Geschlecht in german) of the Spider, who is entombed in red glass. 
Page 7-8, panel 1: Grimani tells the story of Gianus: FB: he was an alchimist and scientist, who was working on the world-known island of Murano and was known for his perfection in producing glass. His glass was also known for its mysterious reddish tone. However, one day a spy reported to the doge that Gianus was using human blood, taken from sacrifices offered to demons. The doge ordered the Schergen der Nacht, who had to protect the secrets of the glass production on Murano, to dispose of the demon-worshiper. They interrupted another sacrifice, burned all of Gianus notes and threw him into the Glass melting pot, which left him in his current state. 
Page 8, panel 2-6: Peter touches the glass tomb, but gets like an electrical decharge back. 
Page 9-13: Later. Peter, unable to sleep because the night is so quiet in Venice (as opposed to New York), jumps into action as Spider-Man when he hears a scream. To his astonishment, Count Gianus has been restored to life and is turning people into glass with his spider-staff (which had been entombed with him). After a brief fight, Spidey gets another electrical decharge when he touches the spider-staff. Count Gianus punches him into the canal. When Spidey gets out again, the Count has vanished. A passer-by congratulates him for his great Daredevil costume (but shouldnt he have horns?). 
Page 14-15: The next day. Peter goes back to the cemetery, and finds that there are only shards left of Gianus former tomb. Grimani checks the grave too, and they discuss how the count could have been restored to life. Peter believes he is to blame, but Grimani doesnt see a possible connection between the young american and the Family of the Spider. 
Page 16: Peter spends the day, first visiting the carnival, then watching reports on the events of last night on TV. In the evening, he takes the ferry to the island of Murano. 
Page 17-22: As Spider-Man, Peter confronts Count Gianus in his former lab (which is in surprisingly good shape). Gianus is reminded of the masks of the Schergen der Nacht. After a fight, Gianus falls into the molten glass again, Spidey being unable to save him. He takes the newly entombed body of Gianus back to Venice, using a gondola, regretting that there are no skyscrapers in Venice. 

Comments: 
There is nothing that really excludes this from Spideys continuity. 
It was originally published in 2003, and of course, in the U.S. comics of the time, Peter wasnt freelancing for the Bugle anymore. 
So I guess it has to take place before he starts teaching. 
MJ and Aunt May arent mentioned at all. 
Still, this cant take place before hes married to MJ, as it has to take place some time after the first appearance of Carnage (who is well-known enough to have people dress up as him in Italy). 
The Green Goblin on page 1, panel 1, might be a small-time crook posing as the Goblin. 
At least, it is easy to place on the Calendar: it takes place during the carnival of Venice, in February.
