	Marvel Universe Forum
1. New X-Men
2. Not Brand Echh
3. Missing Peter Corbeau and Imperial Guard appearances
4. Handbook#6 notes
5. Charles Xavier/Bruce Banner reference in UX 66
6. Error in Professor X listing
7. Hulk: Destruction...is it canon?!?
8. Liberty Legion additions
9. making sense of X-Factor annual #7
10. Aunt May Correction
11. ASM 38-FB
12. Hercules Chronology
13. Avengers in FF Annual #3
14. DD2 37
15. FF: First Family (spoilers for #6)
16. Claws
17. Iron Man vol. 4 #11 (spoilers)
18. Mojo II
19. List of issues
20. Punisher War Journal V1 Nr2

	Ultimate Universe Forum
21. Ultimate Elektra (updated)
22. What title should I start with and so on...

	Issue Analysis Forum
23. Runaways vol 2 #14-18
24. X-Men - Apocalypse vs Dracula and New Excalibur #9
25. Analysis of Star Masters LS
26. Storm v2 1-6
27. Calendar; Punisher MAX 25-30
28. Calendar; Punisher MAX 31-36
29. Spider-Man Family: Amazing Friends
30. X-STATIX 19, 20
31. Fantastic Four: First Family
32. Marvel Western: Two-Gun Kid

	Chat Forum
33. Marvel and Continuity Issues
34. Recipints of the Super Soldier Formula?
35. Coming from Marvel in November




Thread 1

Posted: 20 Jul 2006 04:13 pm    Post subject: New X-Men
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The timeline in NEW X-MEN is getting very, very confused. 

Basically, what's happening here is that very little time has passed in the title since M-Day, in terms of the action. But they're keeping up to date with references in other books. 

This week's issue, NX 28, is a direct continuation from the previous storyline in NX 23-27. (They're still clearing up the bodies from the fight scene in NX 27.) Unfortunately, it also states quite unequivocally that it follows X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #6, the "Blood of Apocalypse" storyline that ended in X-MEN #186, and the meeting between Iron Man and Emma Frost in CIVIL WAR #3. The first two references are throwaway, but the Civil War context is non-negotiable, because Emma Frost and Ms Marvel spend four pages arguing about it. 

Somewhere along the line, an awful lot of time has passed in this book since M-Day. Anyone have any suggestions for where it might be? 

(Incidentally, I believe from my notes that Gambit actually appeared in NX 24, an appearance which would now seem to be apocryphal since the storyline follows his recruitment as a Horseman.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Jul 2006 06:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've come to the same conclusion, Paul. How about a gap between NX 24 and 25? That allows Gambit to appear before the gap, which would accommodate X:DG and the "Blood of Apocalypse" storyline, among other stories. The burial of the bus victims in NX 24 may be the start of the cemetery we see in X:DG 6. 

I'm working through the various inconsistent temporal references and chronological sequences to determine the amount of time between HOM and CW. With so many books, it's slow going...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Jul 2006 10:56 pm    
By dubj1979

My guess is that after the buss insident and the funeral there could be a gap. It could take quite awhile to id body's to get them in there proper barial sights, thats saying if the bodiies are that destroyed. either way it could be a wk or more. this is going off memory, I guess i should pull out the issues to get a better look.

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Posted: 20 Jul 2006 11:06 pm    
By dubj1979

OK nver mind that....on the second page Gambit is one of the paulbearers in the funerals.....still looking

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Posted: 27 Jul 2006 10:14 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

I think we might see a reset button in the near future. The September solicits say ". . . and his [Forge's] actions will change the future AND the past, . . . " In any event, I expect a reset button come October.

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Posted: 28 Jul 2006 07:11 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Meaning they could undo some of these needless deaths?!? Oh please, oh please, oh please, oh please let that be the case...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Jul 2006 11:20 am    
By dubj1979

HMMMM.....If that was the case it would sure help on some chrono stuff and I would be very happy to see some of the kids back. I don't know....the past 2 arcs were some of the most shocking stories I've ever read in comics....to take all that back would kinda suck.

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Thread 2

Posted: 30 Jul 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Not Brand Echh
By ADMINISTRATOR

Um, guys? 

Is that the real Avengers in Not Brand Echh 12?  


watching: tiger war

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Posted: 30 Jul 2006 09:26 am    
By jephyork
Director

Don't know, as I've never read it, but I recently found myself asking the same question about What The--?! #10... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Jul 2006 12:20 pm    
By Ant-Man

Is that the one where the Avengers are shown reading the "Revengers" story?
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 30 Jul 2006 12:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yep. As far as I can tell, it's legit. 


watching: hex

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Posted: 30 Jul 2006 03:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Can we get analyses for NOT BRAND ECHH #12 and WHAT THE--? #10?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2006 04:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'll only analyze the sequence in question. 

At the conclusion of the Revengers, the Visage says, "This could never happen to the real Avengers." 

In an epilog, Hawkeye, Goliath, Wasp, Black Panther and Vision are discussing that Not Brand Echh story, and Hawkeye is agreeing that it would never happen, and the guys at Marvel (not Marble) don't know how to write superhero stories. They're also lamenting the fact that they have no villains to fight. It's drawn by John Buscema, clearly in the style of the Avengers at the time (circa A 60). 

Wasp is wearing a solid red leotard. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 30 Jul 2006 05:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sounds like this happens between A 58 (Vision joins) and A 59 (Pym adopts Yellowjacket identity). What does Goliath's costume look like -- red and blue with yellow mask and antennae?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Jul 2006 05:41 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yep.

Posted: 30 Jul 2006 11:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

What The-?! #10 

First story: "I'll Be Doom For Christmas" by Scott Lobdell and John Byrne 

It's Christmas Eve, and Santa Claus, trying to deliver gifts at Doom's castle, is injured by Doom's intruder deterrant devices -- and, unable to finish delivering gifts, drafts Doom into his service. 

When "Santa Doom" arrives at Four Freedoms Plaza to deliver gifts, he is naturally set upon by Captain America, Quasar, Speedball and the FF. The brawl spills into the streets, and to the doorstep of a children's hospital -- where the wide-eyed children ask the heroes why they're pounding the tar out of Santa. 

Of course, this gives everyone pause -- and they quickly behave themselves, handing out gifts and treating the sickly children to an impromptu holiday party. 

Weeks later, Santa is well enough to travel, and offers Doom a gift for his assistance -- but Doom declines; he's already taken care of. As Santa flies off, puzzled, we see Doom holding a ragged teddy bear that one of the sick children gave him. Awww. 

Notes: the entire story is told in rhyme, including the characters' dialogue. Of course, so was one of the stories in the recent Marvel Holiday Special 2005, so I don't think that's obvious grounds for non-canonicity. 

The characters go by their real names and appearances here -- no parody names, exaggerated costumes or background goofiness. 

And we know Santa Claus is a real Marvel Universe character, and has crazy powers. (I, personally, don't believe he could have been actually injured or caught by Doom's devices, but I do believe he's devious enough to let himself be injured just to teach Doom to appreciate Christmas.) 

What The--?! has hosted some Captain Ultra stories, as well, that don't appear automatically non-canon (i.e., no parody characters appear) -- and if memory serves, #16 had a similar rhyming Christmas story (Ant-Man vs. Doc Ock at Santa's workshop, I think). Maybe we should take a closer look at the series -- there may be more "silly, but not obviously non-canon" stories hiding in there... 

So what does everyone think? Canon, at least potentially? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 31 Jul 2006 06:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
Maybe we should take a closer look at the series -- there may be more "silly, but not obviously non-canon" stories hiding in there... 
So what does everyone think? Canon, at least potentially?  


Potentially. Where would you say this particular story would fall chronologically if it were canonical? Anyone want to look at other issues of WHAT THE--? to identify other potentially canonical stories? 


And I think we can declare the NOT BRAND ECCH #12 story canonical. The five characters must appear here between A 280-FB and A 59-FB.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Jul 2006 06:55 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

From the sound of it, I'd go with WHAT THE--?! #10 being canonical. If it had appeared in a title like MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS then there would be no scope for doubt. Silliness can't be a major consideration when books like HOWARD THE DUCK and DAMAGE CONTROL are clearly canon. The only factor that seems to raise a question is the fact that it appeared in WHAT THE--?!, which ran mostly non-canon material. But most of those stories are obviously non-canon, in that they feature parody characters and absurdist, irrational anti-plots. I can't see any obvious reason to exclude a story like this from canon. 

Of course, except for MCP purposes, it's ultimately an academic question whether this story is canonical, since it's hardly likely that any later story is going to build on it (or care about contradicting it). But since we need to reach a decision, I'd say canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Jul 2006 08:07 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Where would you say this particular story would fall chronologically if it were canonical? 
<<<

I remember noticing that Sue Richards had short hair, but other than that I didn't see any chronological clues. I'll look again tonight, though 

Quote: 
>>>
Anyone want to look at other issues of WHAT THE--? to identify other potentially canonical stories? 
<<<

I can check a few issues, but I don't have the complete series. Does anyone else have a whole set? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 03:47 pm    
By SeanCurtin

What The--?! #7, fourth story: "Patsy Walker" 
Patsy inexplicably finds herself a teenager in Centerville again, alongside Hedy Wolfe and Nan Brown. Suddenly, Tomazooma breaks through the wall, the scene shifts back to the present, and Patsy is turned back into Hellcat. They fight, but when the scene shifts back to Centerville, Tomazooma is embarassed into leaving. Patsy and Buzz cavort on the beach, but the scene shifts back to the present, and they are transformed back into Hellcat and Mad-Dog. As she knocks him out, the scene shifts back to Centerville. At dinner with her parents Joshua and Dorothy and brother Mickey, her mother reverts the scene to the present, in which her parents are dead and her brother is an adult. Her mother, now undead, reveals that she caused the reality shifts: she used her knowledge of the fact that she is a comic book character to take control of reality and, more importantly, her daughter's life. Hellcat, incensed, uses her own newfound 'comics awareness' to tear her mother off of the page. Reality is restored to normal, but not before Patsy visits the artificial Centerville of the past to get some R&R. 

-Sean

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 04:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hey, I remember reading that one too -- but in my opinion, stories where the comic characters KNOW they're comic characters probably shouldn't be canon. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 04:13 pm    
By Somebody

Where does that leave Sensational She-Hulk, Hulk #412, lots of issues of Deadpool and Cable/Deadpool, etc?

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:39 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Deadpool is insane, and She-Hulk has always been that one weird exception. Didn't Peter David try to write Jen's behavior off as mental illness as well, in an issue of Hulk? 

I didn't issue an MCP ruling there -- I just offered my opinion. Everyone else is free to offer their own. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 02:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'd tend to agree that this particular story isn't canon, since it involves breaking the fourth wall (normally, although not universally, a ground rule of Marvel Universe stories) and it's in an anthology title which is already of doubtful canonicity.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 3

Posted: 31 Jul 2006 10:49 am    Post subject: Missing Peter Corbeau and Imperial Guard appearances
By jannepie

I think I noticed some appearances that are missing from the MCP. Could someone verify these, since I'm not near my comics right now and I'm going with my notes. Thanks! 

CORBEAU, DR. PETER 
UX 150 
*UX 154 
UX 158 

HOBGOBLIN 
UX 107 
UX 108-BTS 
UX 109-FB-BTS 
*UX 157 (wasn't named in the issue, so I'm not 100% sure) 
XSOS 2 

MENTOR II 
UX 157 I didn't see him here. Where was he?

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Posted: 31 Jul 2006 11:08 am    
By JD

jannepie wrote: 
CORBEAU, DR. PETER 
UX 150 
*UX 154 
UX 158 


Correct : page 5, panel 2. He's not recognizable but is adressed by Colossus by name ("Mr Corbeau").

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 05:23 am    
By jannepie

Okay, I was able to double check my notes. The one I think is Hobgoblin is in UX 157 page 13 panel 5, in the lower right corner. My copy is black and white Finnish reprint, so I don't know what color the character is. Now that I think about it, he seems like a member of the ship's crew, so it might not be Hobgoblin afterall. 

I still didn't find Mentor though.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 06:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 does not cite Hobgoblin as appearing in UX 157. Unless it was an obvious oversight on Marvel's part, I'd go with the Index on this.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 01:51 pm    
By Pater Fabricius

Having the original, this is not Hobgoblin. The skin color and the ears are wrong. Hobgoblin has purple skin and pointy ears. The alien in question has orange skin and fan like ears. 

I can't find Mentor either.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 04:23 am    
By jannepie

Thanks, Peter! Now I can fix my own notes.

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Thread 4

Posted: 28 Jun 2006 09:31 am    Post subject: Handbook#6 notes
By Enda80

Designations found in this issue 
Earth-15731 
58163 
928 
89112 
9201 
922 
921 
7528 
98120 

The Golden Age Ka-Zar finally gets acknowledged. 

Earth-8710 is the home of Dargo Ktor, so Don Campbell's idea has gotten vindicated that more than one Dargo has appeared, see Korvac's entry. 

Earth-82432 for a Korvac related Earth. 

Loki's entry reiterates Venus#6 as his first appearance. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/bibliography/Issue6.html 
The Bibliography also mentions other Venus stories. This is dicey; the bibliography appears on the marvunapp.com site, but not in the Handbook itself. I must check for other Earth designations, though. 

Machine Man's entry seems to treat Nextwave as Earth-616 canonical. 

Good thing that instead of the people in Italy who came up with a canon, we don't have to rely on lame reasons.

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Posted: 28 Jun 2006 03:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Designations found in this issue 
Earth-15731... 
<<<

Why would you list random Earth numbers without telling us which Earths or stories they relate to? 


Quote: 
>>>
Good thing that instead of the people in Italy who came up with a canon, we don't have to rely on lame reasons. 
<<<

What? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Jul 2006 08:02 am    
By Eric J. Moreels

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
This is dicey; the bibliography appears on the marvunapp.com site, but not in the Handbook itself. 
<<<

The reason being is that we haven't the room in the issues themselves to include comprehensive bibliographies of all the characters featured, so the decision was made to move the bibliography online. A link to the bibliography pages is on the inside front cover of each A-Z issue. It's as official as the Handbooks themselves.

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Posted: 03 Jul 2006 08:22 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Uh, not for our purposes. 

The Appendix doesn't use other web sites as sources (wisely so), and neither do we. 

There are Marvel comics that have links to the Chronology Project, but there's nothing official about our site. It just seems to me that if Marvel wanted the bibliographies to be "official", they'd host them at marvel.com. 


watching: a go-go dancer

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Posted: 03 Jul 2006 08:25 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, they ARE expressly endorsed in the Handbook itself. I admit, though, that I'm somewhat mystified that this material is being hosted on the contributors' own website when Marvel have a perfectly good site of their own.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Jul 2006 02:49 am    
By U-Man

Administrator wrote: 
There are Marvel comics that have links to the Chronology Project, but there's nothing official about our site.  


(Off-topic) There are? Where?

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Posted: 12 Jul 2006 07:20 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Two that come to mind are Citizen V and the hardback edition of Avengers/Justice League. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 05:30 pm    
By Enda80

The Bibliographies are now hosted on Marvel.com, so that definetly makes them official.

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 06:11 pm    
By Mikhail

A bunch of biographies posted by random internet fans are also hosted at Marvel.com -- doesn't make that "official".

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 06:36 pm    
By loki

The bibliographies are compiled by the same writers who also write the entries for the Handbooks. They are posted on Marvel.com by the writers, and are protected pages so that "random internet fans" can't make changes to them. They are official.

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 11:09 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Okay, we've gone over this before. Things that writers say, outside of the books, are not "official." We can glean creator intent from interviews and forum postings, but it's the books, not the writers, that are "official", unless of course, they're clearly wrong. 

Writers are distinguished from editors. Editors can officially speak for Marvel. If the postings at the Marvel site receive editorial approval (and by that, I mean, approval of each posting, rather than a blanket approval of "everything that's said here"), then that would certainly place a lot of weight toward assuming they were "official." 

But, come on. "The writers who also write the entries for the Handbooks" are internet fans. That can hardly be denied with a straight face. Not "random", I'll grant you, but still fans.  


watching: scooby doo

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 08:36 am    
By loki

All the bibliographies are still run past the editors as part of the Handbook writing process. Simply put, when we went from theme books to A-Z our editors worked to gain more pages for the Handbooks without having to raise the cover price, because we knew how difficult it would be to do a decent coverage of the Marvel universe in 12 issues, even with us leaving out the individuals already covered in the theme books. Since we still wanted to maximise coverage the decision was made to move the power grid info and bibliographies out the books and online, initially on marvunapp.com and, now that its up and running, on marvel.com's bio section. That's the ONLY reason they aren't in the Handbooks themselves; to make more space for covering characters. If you want to deem them "unofficial" simply because we chose to maximise character coverage, in spite of editorial approving them and the writers telling you otherwise, then fine, your choice, and I won't waste my breath trying to tell you otherwise any more. 


Quote: 
>>>
But, come on. "The writers who also write the entries for the Handbooks" are internet fans. That can hardly be denied with a straight face. Not "random", I'll grant you, but still fans.  
<<<

"internet fans" - your hang-up, not mine. I've listened to this comment enough from other "internet fans", used like its a put down, as if the work we produce would somehow be more valid if it was produced by someone who wasn't an "internet fan". The only time I know of, and this comment includes the original Handbook series of the 80s largely produced by "fanzine fan" (no internet in those days) Mark Gruenwald, where someone who wasn't a fan produced a Marvel reference guide was the Hulk Encyclopedia.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 12:35 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'll admit I was cautioned, before posting that message, that you would overreact in response, but I did it anyway. Mea culpa. 

loki wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
loki wrote: 
>>>
Mikhail wrote: 
>>>
A bunch of biographies posted by random internet fans are also hosted at Marvel.com -- doesn't make that "official". 
<<<

The bibliographies are compiled by the same writers who also write the entries for the Handbooks. They are posted on Marvel.com by the writers, and are protected pages so that "random internet fans" can't make changes to them. They are official. 
<<<

Okay, we've gone over this before. Things that writers say, outside of the books, are not "official." We can glean creator intent from interviews and forum postings, but it's the books, not the writers, that are "official", unless of course, they're clearly wrong. 

Writers are distinguished from editors. Editors can officially speak for Marvel. If the postings at the Marvel site receive editorial approval (and by that, I mean, approval of each posting, rather than a blanket approval of "everything that's said here", then that would certainly place a lot of weight toward assuming they were "official." 
<<<

All the bibliographies are still run past the editors as part of the Handbook writing process. Simply put, when we went from theme books to A-Z our editors worked to gain more pages for the Handbooks without having to raise the cover price, because we knew how difficult it would be to do a decent coverage of the Marvel universe in 12 issues, even with us leaving out the individuals already covered in the theme books. Since we still wanted to maximise coverage the decision was made to move the power grid info and bibliographies out the books and online, initially on marvunapp.com and, now that its up and running, on marvel.com's bio section. That's the ONLY reason they aren't in the Handbooks themselves; to make more space for covering characters. If you want to deem them "unofficial" simply because we chose to maximise character coverage, in spite of editorial approving them and the writers telling you otherwise, then fine, your choice, and I won't waste my breath trying to tell you otherwise any more. 
<<<

It's regrettable that you think you're wasting your breath, but that's as far as my apology goes, seeing as how you've delibertately chosen to misrepresent what I said. I said if you had editorial approval for the comments, then that is strong evidence that they're "official". You've chosen to portray my comments as "deem[ing] them unofficial...in spite of editorial approving them." Not only is that not what I said, it's almost exactly the opposite of what I said. 


loki wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
But, come on. "The writers who also write the entries for the Handbooks" are internet fans. That can hardly be denied with a straight face. Not "random", I'll grant you, but still fans.  
<<< 

"internet fans" - your hang-up, not mine. 
<<<

_My_ hang-up? Nice try at misdirection, but I don't think so. I consider myself an internet fan, and I don't put myself down. You're the one who really seems to bristle when you're identified as an internet fan. You tell me which one of us has the hang-up. 


loki wrote: 
>>>
I've listened to this comment enough from other "internet fans", used like its a put down, as if the work we produce would somehow be more valid if it was produced by someone who wasn't an "internet fan". The only time I know of, and this comment includes the original Handbook series of the 80s largely produced by "fanzine fan" (no internet in those days) Mark Gruenwald, where someone who wasn't a fan produced a Marvel reference guide was the Hulk Encyclopedia. 
<<<

You're comparing the current Handbook writers to Mark Gruenwald? I wondered if you'd take the bait, and do that. That's just...false. Mark Gruenwald had been writing published stories for Marvel for at least four years before the first issue of OHOTMU hit the shelves. He was a comic book fan, who went on to write comics, who later went on to produce the Handbooks. He was a comics professional, long before the Handbooks. The current books are written and compiled by fans (who presumably have careers outside of comic books), and Marvel edits them and publishes them and makes them official. 

That is just...not...the same as Mark Gruenwald. 

IMO, you'd have been much better off, comparing the Handbook writers to George Olshevsky, rather than Gruenwald. But then again, maybe not, because I don't think Olshevsky ever portrayed himself as anything but a fan. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 03:55 pm    
By Eric J. Moreels

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
My hang-up? Nice try at misdirection, but I don't think so. I consider myself an internet fan, and I don't put myself down. You're the one who really seems to bristle when you're identified as an internet fan. You tell me which one of us has the hang-up. 
<<<

This might be a good time to quote a passage from the Official FAQ of the OHOTMU, also hosted @ Marvel.com... 

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:FAQ 

"Every person working on the Handbooks is a fan. However, please don't take that as a negative judgment on either how much Marvel cares about the Handbooks, or on the quality of our work for same. Remember - Chris Claremont was and is a fan; John Byrne likewise; Peter David too. Walt and Louise Simonson - fans. Jim Starlin - fan. Neil Gaiman - fan. Alan Moore - fan. Mark Gruenwald - fan. Joe Quesada - fan. In fact, probably without exception, any artist or writer who started working in comics since the 1960s was and is a fan. Unless you are very successful, there are better paid jobs, and ones with more public prestige; most people working in the industry (on the creative side at least) started doing so because they are fans. And while we don't count ourselves on the same level as the comic luminaries I've listed, my point is that being a "fan" does not mean the work somehow automatically loses validity; instead please judge the Handbooks on the quality or otherwise of our work. Some of the Handbook writers make their professional living as writers; all of us are employed as writers of these books by Marvel. We work as a group collectively reviewing all of the profiles; over time we have assembled a panel of experts that function synergistically to identify the most obscure points, making the material as complete as possible, as well as identifying errata, making the material as correct as possible. All material published is reviewed and sanctioned by both Tom Brevoort and Jeff Youngquist. In addition, any time we are not certain about material, we will send it to the writers of the relevant stories for checking and clarification. 

Fans? Absolutely, and proud of it. Just fans? No. "

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 04:14 pm    
By Somebody

Isn't that whole section of Marvel's site Wikipedia-style "anyone can edit"?...

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 04:25 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, I'll leave aside any comments about comparing the Handboook writers to Mark Gruenwald and Chris Claremont. I've made my feelings clear already. The quote above is simply the Handbook writers talking about themselves. 

I will point out, though, that it's the editorial oversight mentioned in this quote that lends it "officialness." This branch of the discussion was sparked by loki's contention that the words on Marvel's site were written by the writers of the Handbook, and that makes it official, and I disagreed, just as I'd disagree with John Byrne, if he were to come on board here and say, "I said it, therefore it's the official Marvel line." We don't get the official line from writers; we get it from the books and the editors. 


watching: winds of war

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 05:21 am    
By Eric J. Moreels

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Isn't that whole section of Marvel's site Wikipedia-style "anyone can edit"?... 
<<<

Yes, but edits only show up publicly if we (myself and my fellow moderators there) approve them. Pages can also be protected to prevent editing, and all Official Handbook are thusly protected.

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Thread 5

Posted: 04 Aug 2006 06:41 pm    Post subject: Charles Xavier/Bruce Banner reference in UX 66
By wolframbane

In Uncanny X-Men #66, there is a reference to Charles Xavier coresponding with Bruce Banner years ago on a gamma-device to cure mental trauma. This was not an actual Flashback, but only a reference that they worked together years ago. 

Would anyone familiar with Professor X or Hulk's history know a good time when this may have occurred? I think that possibly the same time that Xavier, while a visiting professor at Columbia, worked with Karl Lykos (Sauron) on Project Mutant. This would seem to be a logical time for Xavier to have corresponded with other scientists on other projects. The X-Men Index v1 #7 has Project Mutant occur after he returns from earning his PhD in Psychology at a University in England (where he became reacquainted with Moira) and before he awakens young Jean Grey from a coma.

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Thread 6

Posted: 04 Aug 2006 06:45 pm    Post subject: Error in Professor X listing
By wolframbane

In Prof X's listing for his early chronological appearances: 

CX 19/2-FB 
UX 372-FB 
CX 42/2 

UX 372-FB should be UX 273-FB. This is when Charles demonstrates Cerebro to Moira and a young Jean. The revised listing should be: 

CX 19/2-FB 
UX 273-FB 
CX 42/2

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Thread 7

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:53 am    Post subject: Hulk: Destruction...is it canon?!?
By Kevin W.
Director

I figured we didn't have enough cans of worms opened up, so I figured I'd bring this up... 

This miniseries...will make a chronologist's head explode.  

If this miniseries is to be believed, the Abomination came onto the scene after Doc Samson got his powers, (I don't see how Peter David could've made that mistake), and the manner in which Emil Blonsky got his powers is totally altered. Entire sequences in past comics will be rendered non-canon if we accept this miniseries as the gospel truth. 

Furthermore, Peter David uses this miniseries to further his plot idea from H3 81: That Nightmare has been putting Banner/Hulk through a endless sequence of nightmares. 

H3 50-54, (the last Abomination story arc) is pretty much thrown out as having never occured, and yet, Peter David still feels the need to explain that Emil was married twice, to two different girls named Nadia. All to explain the discrepencies in behavoir between David's "Hunchback of Notre Dame" version of Emil, and Jones' "I'm a monster inside as well" version. 

And if H3 50-54 is thrown out, then that would strengthen throwing out other storylines hinted at as being nightmares, such as the Absorbing Man story arc from H3 55-59, and the Devil Hulk from Paul Jenkin's run on the book. Mind you, Peter David already came up with a way to rationalize the Absorbing Man as seen in the pages of the last volume of Captain Marvel, (when Captain Marvel reformed the universe, multiple versions of some characters sprang into existence, for brief periods of time). 

So just toss out Hulk: Destruction all together? Or what?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:23 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Judging from interviews, it's an intentional retcon. The Abomination's origin story involves him being a Commie spy and is simply no longer workable in 2005, so they're replacing it with something else. The fact that Peter David is furthering his Nightmare angle is also an unequivocal indication that it's canon. 

Mind you, I'm as baffled as you by David's attempts to simultaneously explain away and discredit the Jones arc.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:50 am    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Mind you, Peter David already came up with a way to rationalize the Absorbing Man as seen in the pages of the last volume of Captain Marvel, (when Captain Marvel reformed the universe, multiple versions of some characters sprang into existence, for brief periods of time). 
<<<

Peter David wrote: 
>>>
http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/001857.html 
So I read the entry on "Absorbing Man" and, much to my amusement, they actually stated that his bizarrely out-of-continuity appearance in "Hulk" was due to a temporal anomaly. Yes, that's right, the slightly tongue-in-cheek notion that Captain Marvel's re-creation of the universe in issue #6 was responsible for waves of discontinuity throughout the Marvel Universe has now been officially embraced by a separate Marvel reference volume. 
<<<

IOW, he wasn't being entirely serious with that one . This time, I think he was. 

OC, the HB writers have done worse - when they asked Lobdell to explain Sunpyre's reappearance in Alpha Flight and got an obvious joke answer, they took it as gospel...

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:56 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Judging from interviews, it's an intentional retcon.  
<<<

This probably calls for a clarification of the MCP rules for retcons that are intended to be canonical. I'm very hesitant to accept Hulk: Destruction as canonical, given that it appears to retcon so much. And who's to say that another writer won't come along and discredit Destruction? 


Quote: 
>>>
The Abomination's origin story involves him being a Commie spy and is simply no longer workable in 2005 
<<<

Yet, Frank Castle is still grounded in the Vietnam War. The whole concept of the sliding timeline is untenable...maybe even as much as that of a calendar. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:22 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
The Abomination's origin story involves him being a Commie spy and is simply no longer workable in 2005 
<<<

Yet, Frank Castle is still grounded in the Vietnam War. The whole concept of the sliding timeline is untenable...maybe even as much as that of a calendar.  
<<<

Ah, but no. The Abomination's origin requires to take place once the modern Marvel Universe is up and running, which is at the very least after the fall of Communism. You just can't have Cold War commie villains wandering around in 1992 - it's silly. Sliding timelines necessary entail revisionism. 

The Punisher, on the other hand, has a back story which can happily take place pre-FF #1, and Vietnam isn't yet so far back as to cause credibility problems. It does make him a rare example of a character who is getting retroactively older, but so be it. That's what works for him. 

At some point Vietnam will become unworkable too and he'll be quietly revised into a Special Forces guy.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:25 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
If this miniseries is to be believed, the Abomination came onto the scene after Doc Samson got his powers, 
<<<

Explain. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:32 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
The Abomination's origin requires to take place once the modern Marvel Universe is up and running, which is at the very least after the fall of Communism. 
<<<

Sure, if Communism fell in 1961...... 

Really though, there's tons of ex-communits around in the former Soviet Union, and Eastern Europe, many in government. 

I really don't think that it's the Abomination's origin that makes the Marvel Universe unbelievable. 

Dave

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:22 am    
By Somebody

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
If this miniseries is to be believed, the Abomination came onto the scene after Doc Samson got his powers, 
<<<

Explain. 
<<<

IIRC, the artist drew flashback-Samson identically to the present day version, down to the clothes, and the colourist followed suit. 

And, of course, the "two Nadias" could be taken as a indication that the whole Jones run wasn't a Nightmare, just most of it.

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:01 pm    
By shandrakor

The bulk of issues 1-3 take place in flashback. The flashbacks in H: D 1 show Emil Blonsky being hired sometime after the end of the cold war by General Ross, then Blonsky bringing an already super-powered Doc Samson down to "division" for questioning (watching a little too much 24, there David?). Samson and Hulk get into a fight. The flashbacks in H: D 2 deal with the aftermath of that fight, and Emil Blonsky is accidentally exposed to gamma rays during the cleanup, rather than doing it to himself deliberately. 

The book also states that the story of a Russian spy intentionally dosing himself with radiation was a coverup designed by the army, which was fictionalized into a comic book. Somehow, despite cooking up a cover story that someone named "Emil Blonsky" turned himself into the Abomination, the real Emil is allowed to continue working at the facility. Apparently, for his first few appearances, Blonsky was changing back and forth to the Abomination much like Banner/Hulk. 

The framing sequence takes place sometime after Tempus Fugit, since Hulk references Nightmare fiddling with his mind. Samson is not wearing an eyepatch, and Abomination has no recollection of Banner sleeping with his wife (or, either of his wives, if you take the story seriously). With those two points, Peter David is explicitly retconning away the Bruce Jones run to the point where Nightmare wasn't just playing chess with people, but that the stories occurred entirely within Hulk's head. 

So, according to this, (at a bare minimum) portions of TTA 90/2 and 91/2 never happened, the rest along with H2 136 and 137 must take place sometime after H2 141. Portions of Bruce Jone's run explicitly didn't happen, and the rest are very suspect for sure if we adopt H: D as the new cannon.

Last edited by shandrakor on Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Flashbacks that contradict previously established canon without explanation are automatically suspect. 


watching: live from

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:43 pm    
By shandrakor

My concern is that the "Abomination is lying" argument is difficult to use here. He's describing these events directly to Gen. Ross and Doc Samson, who both apparently participated in the events, but neither one contradicts him at all. They both behave as though what he's saying is entirely accurate. 

The story also provides an origin for Mercy, and she appears late in the story also seeming to confirm the revised history. 

Basically, I don't see a good way to adopt the present-day portion of the story without accepting the FB portions.

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:30 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm not making that argument. I'm saying that the characters here are mistaken. We have the benefit of going back to the books to see how it really happened. Since we know it didn't happen that way, they must be mistaken. 

And I don't really buy the argument that the Abomination had to be "updated," especially since these "updates" never solve the inherent problem, anyway. 

Other solutions: 

1. Don't refer to the origin. Abomination hasn't been a communist for many years, so why do we need to know that he ever was one? 

2. Kill him, and give us another Abomination. I can't believe that Emil Blonsky is enough of an iconic character that he can't be replaced. 

The contention that Abomination gained his powers after the first appearance of Doc Samson is a path to chaos. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:04 pm    
By rhod

I haven't read any of this series so I'm out on a limb here, but the plot as you describe it sounds almost exactly like the plot of the Hulk:Ultimate Destruction video-game. Is it possible that this is intentional (obvioosly dropping the Ultimate to avoid confusion) and intentionally non-canon? 

On the subject of revised origins, I'm currently reading most of these stories for the first time, thanks to the Essential series, and find the easiest way around the communist issue is simply to replace 'communist' with 'Russian'. (Russia still does have spies, after all)

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rhod wrote: 
>>>
I haven't read any of this series so I'm out on a limb here, but the plot as you describe it sounds almost exactly like the plot of the Hulk:Ultimate Destruction video-game. Is it possible that this is intentional (obvioosly dropping the Ultimate to avoid confusion) and intentionally non-canon? 
<<<

Paul O'Brien points out above that the story references the earlier Nightmare plotline. 


watching: beverly hillbillies

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:14 pm    
By Somebody

It's a game adaptation, but according to PAD, his "goal was to do everything humanly possible to make it a GENUINE in-continuity revamp of the Abomination's origin" - http://www.comicboards.com/hulk/view.php?rpl=050723055354 He then goes into his reasoning why it needed a revamp in the first place. 

See also http://www.comicboards.com/hulk/view.php?rpl=050810020126

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:44 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The contention that Abomination gained his powers after the first appearance of Doc Samson is a path to chaos.  
<<<

 

Thus, we have the problem...do we just ignore the flashbacks, and count the present day material as having happened? Or throw the entire thing out the window?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:12 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We have a precedent for ignoring flashbacks. Since I don't have the book, I'd rather not comment on whether it's canon or not. 


watching: texas v. iowa

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:52 am    
By shandrakor

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I'm not making that argument. I'm saying that the characters here are mistaken. We have the benefit of going back to the books to see how it really happened. Since we know it didn't happen that way, they must be mistaken. 
<<<

H: D 2 (9p1-9p3): "When the existance of the Abomination eventually became known...the Government covered up the fact that I headed up the devision. In fact, you buried the division as well. Instead, the official government line was that evil communist spy Emil Blonsky broke into a hidden facility...and bombarded himself with gamma radiation so he could become as powerful as the Hulk. As if that made any sense. But the press, they swallowed it. It became the official story in the newspapers. In my file. Hell, it was even fictionalized in a comic book." 

In my opinion, trying to accept the framing sequence as cannon with non-cannon flashbacks simply strains suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point with regard to characterization/character knowledge. 

The way I see it, we have to either accept the entire story as a heavy-handed retcon, or we have to disregard it entirely. 

I agree with Russ that sliding the creation of Abomination forward 50+ issues will do nothing but complicate matters, so my vote is for the latter. If the editorial team for Hulk chooses to really commit to the new origin, however, we may see references in the books, and we'll have to actually go back and retcon the chronology. Until then, I say we just hope it goes away quietly like most of these re-written origin books do. 

~Darien

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:25 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The MCP has a precedent of simply ignoring retcons of history. Personally, I disagree with outright rejection of retcons because, where they are clearly explicit and carried out with Marvel's blessing - as is the case here - it amounts to imposing our own rules in preference to Marvel's. And when it comes to Marvel Universe continuity, Marvel are always right. 

Having said that, there is something to be said for a policy of not revising historical listings until it becomes clear that a retcon has actually taken hold. But if Marvel persist in using this version of the Abomination's history - for example, if it continues to turn up in HANDBOOK listings and so forth - then I cannot see any logical justification for insisting that the characters are merely mistaken. The characters are absolutely correct - it's history that has changed.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:54 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The characters are absolutely correct - it's history that has changed. 
<<<

Yes...and no. My theory (without having read H:D of course): the current-day parts of H:D occur after HOM. The altered history of the House of M reality (the retcon) is affecting some people's memories. Perhaps the Abomination story as presented in H:D actually did "occur" in the pre-HOM 2 history of the HOM reality. 

Remember this is what some folks were thinking about HOM months ago...that it would open the door to legitimizing retcons. 

If this is the case, the MCP would treat the flashbacks in H:D as non-canonical, just like it would for any "false memories" in HOM. But the current parts would be canonical, with some characters whose brains have been a little "swiss-cheesed" by the HOM reality shift. Ironically, Logan's mind has never been clearer. 

Those who've actually read H:D and know the finer points of HOM are free to rip this theory to shreds. :)
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:57 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
it's history that has changed. 


And how is that even possible, without the unraveling of the Marvel Universe as a whole? There is a reason why these kind of books don't stick, namely that if you alter the Abomination's history, that affects every one who came in contact with him (ex: Iron Man), and then that alters the history of everyone who came in contact with them. 

In such an event, there would be no purpose to tracking the character's chronologies, or to having an MCP.

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:57 am    
By Somebody

I think you may want to tick "Disable Smilies in this post" in future Paul B :) 

And everything about HoM says that nothing in the past has been altered - there have even been interviews with Bendis, Joe Q & Hine to this effect.

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
And how is that even possible, without the unraveling of the Marvel Universe as a whole? 
<<<

Because it's a fictional universe. DC do it all the time, and while strong arguments can be made that it's a horrible idea, there's no disputing that it happens. A DC Chronology Project that tried to insist that DC history could not be altered would be a self-defeating absurdity; if Marvel were to adopt a similar policy then the same would apply.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I think you may want to tick "Disable Smilies in this post" in future Paul B   
<<<

$%^&*! smilies.... History is being rewritten; what's there to smile about? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:14 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
A DC Chronology Project that tried to insist that DC history could not be altered would be a self-defeating absurdity 
<<<

And I for one, would not waste my time posting there.

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:30 pm    
By Jason Doty

In cases of retcons that end up sticking, why not create a seperate f/b type of annotation that would appear on the board following the HoM story. 

This leaves everything prior to HoM intact, while alowing for these retcons and justifying that we do not understand the nature of how the 616 was altered. 

The annotation would alert readers to a change in the status of a character and also allow us to press on without having to adjust or throw anything out of continuity. 

This problem will continue to persist if we don't come up with a way to allow for discrepencies.

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:26 pm    
By shandrakor

Jason Doty wrote: 
In cases of retcons that end up sticking, why not create a seperate f/b type of annotation that would appear on the board following the HoM story. 


Am I the only one who has a serious problem with hinging this retcon on the House of M? There's no reason to believe that Blonsky's new origin has anything to do with the Scarlet Witch fiddling with reality. There's nothing in H:D to point to HoM, and there's nothing so far in HoM or Decimation to indicate that SW's reality warping has had any retroactive effects. 

The nature of a retcon, practically by definition, is that by editorial decree, history has changed, and has always been that way. Much like the Golden Age Cap or Subby books, they happened unless they directly conflict with current books, in which case, they didn't. 

If H:D sticks, then TTA 90/2 and 91/2 never happened. Blonsky's other apperances before Doc Samson's creation in H2 141 either did not happen, or are moved forward to a point after Abomination's new origin, which occurs sometime after H2 141. The rest of the stories featuring characters which have encountered Abomination either remain where they are in the timeline with any Abomination references removed, or they are also slid forward to a point after Abomination's creation, whichever is less destructive to the story. 

Doing this doesn't unravel the Marvel Universe because, like Paul said, it's a fictional universe. If Marvel says that stories didn't happen, then they didn't happen. If Marvel says stories happened a different way, then they happened a different way. And they always occurred that way. Any past stories that disagree with the new way things happened before also didn't happen, or happened differently in order to accomidate the new history. That's what recon means. Retroactive Continuity. 

Yes, it's destructive to the chronology. Yes, it's usually hamfisted and done without consideration to how it impacts the big picture of history. That's probably why most retcons, Marvel retcons anyway, just get disregarded by the editors and/or later writers. But if it sticks, then it sticks, and we'll just have to deal with that. 

Back to my original point, hinging it on HoM is silly. If some future EiC allows some future writer to roll back Decimation, there's no reason to believe that the same story will roll back Abomination to be a commie spy who was created pre-Samson.

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Before I delve further into this, I wanted to point out that there are two kinds of retcons. Since you've only mentioned and defined one of them, I'll limit my comments to that kind of retcon, which we'll call the evil retcon. 

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
If H:D sticks, then TTA 90/2 and 91/2 never happened. Blonsky's other apperances before Doc Samson's creation in H2 141 either did not happen, or are moved forward to a point after Abomination's new origin, which occurs sometime after H2 141. The rest of the stories featuring characters which have encountered Abomination either remain where they are in the timeline with any Abomination references removed, or they are also slid forward to a point after Abomination's creation, whichever is less destructive to the story. 
<<<

Yeah, but see, this is where your proposal runs into a brick wall, because both options are equally destructive to the story. 


Quote: 
>>>
Doing this doesn't unravel the Marvel Universe because, like Paul said, it's a fictional universe.  
<<<

I don't believe one follows from the other. The fact that it's a fictional universe doesn't offer any protection against its unravelling. These actions can unravel the Marvel Universe, and I don't think its fictional status is relevant to that claim. 


Quote: 
>>>
If Marvel says that stories didn't happen, then they didn't happen. If Marvel says stories happened a different way, then they happened a different way. And they always occurred that way. Any past stories that disagree with the new way things happened before also didn't happen, or happened differently in order to accomidate the new history. That's what recon means. Retroactive Continuity. 

Yes, it's destructive to the chronology. 
<<<

No. No. It's not just destructive to chronologies. There's more to it than that. I can't speak for anyone else, but as for me, there are certain titles that I've bought since I was five years old, and I've bought them without any regard to who wrote them, or who drew them. I bought them because I cared about the characters, both major and supporting, and I cared what happened to them. 

If I know that I can buy a story this month and read about characters that I care about, in a story that Marvel promises me is canon, it's really happening, these are the events that your favorite characters are living through.... and, then, the very next month, in the next issue, Marvel can publish a completely contradictory story, saying, "You know what? That story last month? Didn't happen. Forget about it. Just read this story. This one's canon. Remember that girlfriend that died last month? No such story. She's still alive....." 

If I know that can happen, why should I care about what happens to the characters? Good god, man, even daytime soap operas don't trash their previous canon history like what we're being told we have to swallow. 

I don't expect Marvel to show loyalty to me, as a longtime fan and reader and customer, really, I don't. But I do expect them to show loyalty to their characters. If they don't, why should I be expected to? 



Quote: 
>>>
But if it sticks, then it sticks, and we'll just have to deal with that. 
<<<

Are you sure? There's another option. 

If We say that the Marvel Chronology Project is a chronological listing of character's appearances up to House of M, because shortly thereafter, Marvel forgot their history and thus rendered the MCP obsolete, then it is. Case closed. And we didn't have to deal with it. 


watching: law and order

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well said, Russ. You've conveyed my sentiments as well. 

I assume that the "good" retcon is one that tells us that canonical events as we've seen them aren't exactly what we thought they were. But nonetheless, those events still count because they actually happened, albeit now in a different context from what we understood the "truth" to be. An example of this would be the Vision's origin. Another would be Wanda's and Pietro's (and now apparently Lorna's) true heritage. Still another would be the adventures of the Cap of the 1950s (ah, I still remember the addition of those quotation marks around the word "we" to give a whole new meaning to his '50s debut).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:20 pm    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
Yeah, but see, this is where your proposal runs into a brick wall, because both options are equally destructive to the story.  
<<<

Either you misunderstood me, or I'm misunderstanding you. Imagine these cases: 

a) Character in a pre-H2 141 story says "Hey, remember that fight between Hulk and Abomination? That was pretty cool" and that's it. The reference can be changed to a different fight, or just removed completely with minimal impact on the story. 

b) Pre-H2 141 issue features a fight between Hulk and Abomination, but little in the way of placement clues. Given the lack of complicated plot detail going on in 1970s Hulk, that's not particularly unlikely. That story can then be moved to post H2 141 without destroying the story. 

It's only in a case where a story must happen Pre-H2 141, but cannot have Abomination references removed, that the issue becomes retconned away. 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't believe one follows from the other. The fact that it's a fictional universe doesn't offer any protection against its unravelling. These actions can unravel the Marvel Universe, and I don't think its fictional status is relevant to that claim.  
<<<

The Universe is whatever Marvel tells us it is. Frequent or heavy-handed retconning unravels suspension of disbelief, and makes it more difficult to identify what's cannon or not, but the Universe is what it is. This is all semantics anyway, depending on what you think the phrase "unravels the universe" means. 


Quote: 
>>>
No. No. It's not just destructive to chronologies. There's more to it than that. 
<<<

Oh, I know that. Please, don't try to take my posts as defending the idea of retcons. I think they're stupid, disrespectful, and under almost all circumstances, wholely unnecessary. But this is a chronology community, and I'm trying to address the chronology impacts of retconning without editorializing about whether I feel that they should have happened in the first place. 


Quote: 
>>>
If We say that the Marvel Chronology Project is a chronological listing of character's appearances up to House of M, because shortly thereafter, Marvel forgot their history and thus rendered the MCP obsolete, then it is. Case closed. And we didn't have to deal with it.  
<<<

First off: Ugg. There, again, HoM crops up. Why!? H:D had nothing to do with HoM. If last year's Strange miniseries had been officially declared the new origin of Doctor Strange, we wouldn't be trying to pin that on HoM would we? H:D is its own retconny beast, and we should look at it on its own. If I had to take a guess, the real responsibility is some writer not paying any attention to chronology and making Doc Samson a significant character in the Hulk: UD video game, which then required him to appear as a character in the comic adaptation. 

But, to deal with the brunt of you point. Yes, you can absolutely close down the MCP post H:D. You can mix and match chronologies all you want. You can declare that Hulk's name is actually Marvin. You can stop buying Marvel Comics altogether because you're mad at them, then go become a monk in Tibet. You can do all these things, because you are an independent, rational being. I was, however, trying to keep the discussion to what I thought was probable in the circumstances. 

So, allow me to rephrase. If the MCP continues to do its work, and if later stories back up the events of H:D as the "real" origin of Abomination, then we will have to deal with those stories in some form or another. 

If the MCP declares that any retcons which are deemed sufficiently destructive to the chronology are themselves non-cannon, and that the original stories will trump retcons in those cases, then that is a way of dealing with it. 

If the MCP chooses to adopt the retcon and throw out and/or rearrange past stories, then that is a way of dealing with it. 

I'm not telling you how we have to deal with it. Personally, I'd like to ignore it if at all possible, for much the same reason as you're bringing up. I'm merely saying that we do need a decision about how to handle destructive retcons that stick.

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
So, allow me to rephrase. If the MCP continues to do its work, and if later stories back up the events of H:D as the "real" origin of Abomination, then we will have to deal with those stories in some form or another. 
<<<

Fair enough, and well stated. But, I'm not really seeing how the MCP can continue to do its work, if Marvel is going to insist that selected Silver Age stories never happened, without giving us an explanation. Next month may see a flashback where Gwen Stacy cheats on Peter with a teenage Alex Power, and if Marvel says it happened, then it happened? And in any case, there's no way to accomodate that in the listings here. And yet, if Marvel continues to publish stories where Gwen dating Alex is a major plot point, we can't stick our fingers in our ears and say "I can't hear you." Well, that's not entirely accurate. Of course, we can, but... Isn't it better to just throw up our hands and concentrate on the span of time when Marvel did have a coherent history? 

Oh, and I wasn't trying to connect Hulk: Destruction to House of M. I just felt that it makes a clean line of demarcation. No, we wouldn't have been able to crucify House of M if the Strange retcon had stuck, but of course, it didn't, so that's moot. And I have to believe that this one won't. As I've said before, somewhere out there in the future, some writer who gives a damn about the Marvel Silver Age (Busiek, Stern, Nicieza, et al) will step in and say, "Wait a minute. Hulk:Destruction isn't what you think. Here's what really happened in Hulk:Destruction, and here's why." That's the saintly retcon. If you detect any bitterness in my responses, it's only because, until this week, I would have staunchly defended Peter David as a member of that collective of writers. 


watching: larry king

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:34 pm 
By Dhall

Hmmn, I think we're going overboard on this. As I understand it, H:D is an adaptation of a video game. Can we think of any of those that are actually accepted as canon? 

Dave

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Hmmn, I think we're going overboard on this. As I understand it, H:D is an adaptation of a video game. 
<<<

Check Somebody's response at the bottom of page 1 of this thread. 

Now, having said that, writers don't have a voice in what's canon. The editor's voice carries more weight. 


watching: degrassi tng

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:04 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
t's a game adaptation, but according to PAD, his "goal was to do everything humanly possible to make it a GENUINE in-continuity revamp of the Abomination's origin 
<<<

Yes, but the key phrase here is "According to PAD." If Marvel editorial just told PAD to write an adaption of the video game... well it seems like it's PAD's choice to "do everything humanly possible to make it a GENUINE in-continuity revamp of the Abomination's origin," rather than a mandate from Marvel Editorial. 

Dave

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:06 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

In fairness to Dhall here, let me point out that I was editing my post above to add the line about editorial, at the same time he was posting, so we both came to the same conclusion independently. 


watching: degrassi tng

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:20 pm    
By Enda80

Other sloppy retcons 

Strange 
Iron Man inc. Crimson Dynamo 
Children of the Atom 
Man without Fear 
Sentinel of Liberty 
Hulk Annual 1999 
Chapter One 

Since Man Without Fear and Sentinel of Liberty have been listed in recent Handbook's bibliographies, how is that dealt with? They had appeared in the non-canon list. Are they now canon? 

Also, what was the outcome of the Crimson Dynamo origin retcon problem, as it strongly resembles the issue at hand.

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:26 pm    
By Col_Fury

The Hulk '99 Annual doesn't seem to be in the MCP, it was an attempted retcon, and it was written by Johnny Byrne. Was it decided to be non-canon, the same as his Chapter One? 

Hulk: Destruction is also an attempted retcon. I'm happy enough to declare this non-canon as well. If this were four issues of the ongoing, it would be different. But it's a limited series, and it's based off of a video game. Easily ignored. 

Or, in a different approach, Marvel: The End isn't canon, but vastly similar events did happen. If the Abomination's new stauts quo is referenced in the future, perhaps it's similar circumstances? Meaning, the 'current day' of Destruction as depicted are similar to something that happened in the Marvel Universe, but the mini itself isn't canon. In this case, the FlashBacks are completely non-canon.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:58 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
The Hulk '99 Annual doesn't seem to be in the MCP, it was an attempted retcon, and it was written by Johnny Byrne. Was it decided to be non-canon, the same as his Chapter One? 
<<<
 
Yep, you guessed it. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm merely saying that we do need a decision about how to handle destructive retcons that stick. 
<<<

I don't believe it has happened yet. I can't think of one "destructive retcon" that has stuck. I believe our policy at the MCP towards retcons has alwasy been "wait and see"...If "Hulk: Destruction" stands the test of time, (more than 3 to 5 years, in my opinion), then it'll come time for a decision...but I think we'll be waiting for some time to come for a retcon to truly stick. 


Quote: 
>>>
And I have to believe that this one won't. As I've said before, somewhere out there in the future, some writer who gives a damn about the Marvel Silver Age (Busiek, Stern, Nicieza, et al) will step in and say, "Wait a minute. Hulk:Destruction isn't what you think. Here's what really happened in Hulk:Destruction, and here's why." That's the saintly retcon. If you detect any bitterness in my responses, it's only because, until this week, I would have staunchly defended Peter David as a member of that collective of writers.  
<<<

I was as stunned as you...I simply think it's bitterness towards Bruce Jones, (who admitedly changed key plot points established by David).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:00 am    
By shandrakor

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
until this week, I would have staunchly defended Peter David as a member of that collective of writers. 
<<<

To be honest, so would I. I got a few pages into H:D 1, checked MCP to make sure I wasn't crazy, then wondered how one of my top 5 living writers could make such an absurd bungle. 

I simply have to believe that it was one of the scripters for the game that put Doc Samson where he didn't belong, and David was required to go along with it. I suspect he's not particularly proud of the miniseries, since it never recieved a single "What'd ya think?" post in his blog. 

EDIT: Kevin brings up a point that I'd kinda repressed. I guess my foundation for perfect trust with David first cracked when he actually "It was all a dream'ed" away the BJ run. 

And to combine that with simultaniously inventing a second "Emil's wife Nadia" and making it clear that Banner never slept with, nor presumably even met, this imaginary second Nadia...maybe Peter David's had a breakdown of some sort. *weak smile*

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:27 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Hulk: Destruction.... 

Boy, how ironic did that title turn out to be? 


watching: degrassi tng

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:44 am    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
The Hulk '99 Annual doesn't seem to be in the MCP, it was an attempted retcon, and it was written by Johnny Byrne. Was it decided to be non-canon, the same as his Chapter One? 
<<<

Yep. 

Guess who retconned it away?

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:01 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Hmmn, I think we're going overboard on this. As I understand it, H is an adaptation of a video game. Can we think of any of those that are actually accepted as canon? 
<<<

Off the top of my head? Questprobe.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:29 am    
By Enda80

I believe that the 1999 Annual was retconned into being only a "comic book version" of the "real" Hulk's origin by Peter David in Captain Marvel V#2, when Rick Jones reads it in a comic book and laughs.

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:40 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'm going the "wait and see-slash-hope it's never referenced again" route. This miniseries upsets SO MUCH of the Hulk applecart -- making Silver Age stories into "comic books" and modern age comics into "dreams" -- that I don't think it's worth even *attempting* to fit in unless Marvel cements its canonicity, by referencing it many many times in the future. 

(Yes, many many times. Spider-Man: Chapter One has been referenced once or twice, but it's still not canon -- this series would have to be referenced about once a month from now on for me to accept it.) 

And, honestly, I don't really care if it's ever referenced in a Handbook. To me, those things are secondary sources and that's it. Yes, we've already decided that if a comic disagrees with a Handbook, the comic wins, but I further believe that even if a Handbook adopts a retcon, it needs to be confirmed in a comic before we *have* to accept it. 

It's a miniseries. We can ignore those. Let's do it. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:01 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Yeah, but see, this is where your proposal runs into a brick wall, because both options are equally destructive to the story.  
<<<

Either you misunderstood me, or I'm misunderstanding you. Imagine these cases: 

a) Character in a pre-H2 141 story says "Hey, remember that fight between Hulk and Abomination? That was pretty cool" and that's it. The reference can be changed to a different fight, or just removed completely with minimal impact on the story. 

b) Pre-H2 141 issue features a fight between Hulk and Abomination, but little in the way of placement clues. Given the lack of complicated plot detail going on in 1970s Hulk, that's not particularly unlikely. That story can then be moved to post H2 141 without destroying the story. 

It's only in a case where a story must happen Pre-H2 141, but cannot have Abomination references removed, that the issue becomes retconned away. 
<<<

I'm talking about Tales to Astonish 90-91. Both of your options are destructive to Tales to Astonish. In addition, Tales to Astonish 90 cures Hulk of the "brain damage" that he suffered from the Stranger in TTA 89, and subplots from Tales to Astonish 90-91 are picked up and continued in TTA 92. So now we have to fiddle with both TTA 89 and 92. And I haven't gone to T 178 yet, but I'd wager we'd find the same sort of problems there. 

Taking the path that we should just accept what Marvel says because they say it, and that Tales to Astonish 90-91 are blanked from history, requires us to change events in other stories on our own that Marvel hasn't agreed to. Marvel says that plot elements in TTA 92 reference events in TTA 91. Who are we to say that they don't? If Marvel says it, it must be so. All I'm saying here is that those folks who are saying we can't disagree with Marvel are ultimately requiring us to disagree with Marvel in other places, so they can't have a problem with disagreement, in principle. 


watching: a cake bake

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:24 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Questprobe. 
<<<

So, none in the past 20+ years? 

Dave

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:55 am    
By Jason Doty

I think we are tackling this issue the wrong way. When a retcon series or set of flashbacks appears or is referenced in another book later down the line why bust our heads trying to make them link up with the past. Lets just place them where they would take place with an annotation that this is a retcon and proceed foward. 

By placing it, we are telling fandom it exists and goes against established continuity at the same time. 

It keeps the site true to its purpose by listing every cannon appearances and also allows for Marvel to make these drastic changes with little or no consequence to the project. If Marvel says the retcon is the new "history", we at least have it listed where it would go right along side what us as fans believe is the correct listing.

Last edited by Jason Doty on Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You've suggested this multiple times, Jason, from Iron Man v4 to House of M to this. It seems that nobody's going for it. 

Go figure, but I think we all like the idea that only one version of events occured. If retcons can be added onto or weaved around the original events, great, but if they can't -- well, something's gotta give. 

-Jeph! 

And as a PS to everyone: it's spelled "canon". Only one "n" in the middle. A "cannon" shoots cannonballs.

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:11 pm    
By Jason Doty

Jeph! I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. 

We have the Marvel is always right crew. 
We have the lets chuck books because they don't fit crew. 

Something has to give, but it does not have to be the project, just acknowledge the retcon, don't list it the same way and lets press on. 

That way it's correct for all that utilize it.

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:41 pm    
By rhod

BTW if anyone's interested, the writer of Hulk:UD who caused this whole mess was Paul Jenkins. (I know he's really popular with Hulk fans already)

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Something has to give, but it does not have to be the project, just acknowledge the retcon, don't list it the same way and lets press on. 
<<<

If we start listing multiple versions of history, I'd say that's the Project "giving". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:35 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
We have the Marvel is always right crew. 
We have the lets chuck books because they don't fit crew. 
<<<

It's not one or the other. The proponents of declaring Hulk: Destruction canon are, as I understand it, also proposing chucking issues of Tales to Astonish. So both sides are proposing tossing out something, assuming the two stories are irreconcilable. 


watching: congo birds

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:48 pm    
By shandrakor

rhod wrote: 
>>>
BTW if anyone's interested, the writer of Hulk:UD who caused this whole mess was Paul Jenkins. (I know he's really popular with Hulk fans already) 
<<<

That's too bad. He did the Guilt Hulk/Devil Hulk/ALS plotlines. I rather liked him. Writers I liked should stop doing stupid things.

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:42 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

To be fair: Paul Jenkins was merely tasked with writing a video game. Video games are under no obligation to adhere to comic book continuity, (the Ultimate Spiderman video game being somewhat the exception, as Bendis expects us to take it as canon material). 

No, I'm afraid the blame lies solely on David. I'm still uncertain whether the sloppiness was intential or not, but there you have it...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Writers I liked should stop doing stupid things. 
<<<

I gather Russ feels much the same way right now. And I can't say I disagree. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:45 am    
By Frederic Krier

According to The All-New OHOTMU #7, "Hulk: Destruction" is not cannon. This is what they have to say about it (Mercy entry): 
"While the series Hulk: Destruction does not fit into continuity, Mercy's origin and recent history parallel those events, though the identity of her superior at Gamma Base is unrevealed." 
So, if I understand right, means: similar events may have happened in the mainstream MU (the battle between Hulk and the Abomination appears to have happened according to the entry), but the revised Abomination origin certainly didn't. Hooray!!!

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Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:25 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Hooray indeed.  Yet it's intriguing that Nextwave is canon, (if Machine Man's entry is to be believed) yet the flashbacks in "Hulk: Destruction" are not.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 03 Aug 2006 01:44 am    Post subject: Liberty Legion additions
By Col_Fury

Marvel Two-In-One Annual 1 & issue 20(which continues directly from @1) seem to be missing appearances by the Liberty Legion(with the exception of Whizzer in M/TIO@ 1), Master Man, Brain Drain, U-Man, & Sky Shark. Herere some suggestions: 

Blue Diamond/Professor Elton T. Morrow 
 
M/PRM 30 
*M/TIO@ 1 
*M/TIO 20 
INV 35-FB 
 

(I dont own Two-In-One 79 yet, so thats an educated guess) 

Jack Frost 
 
M/PRM 30 
*M/TIO@ 1 
*M/TIO 20 
INV 35-FB 

 

Miss America/Madeline Joyce Frank 
 
M/PRM 30 
*M/TIO@ 1 
*M/TIO 20 
INV 35-FB 

 

Patriot/Jeff Mace 
 
M/PRM 30 
???INV 7 
*M/TIO@ 1 
*M/TIO 20 
INV 35-FB 
 

(I dont see the Patriot anywhere in Invaders 7. Marvel Premiere 30 ends in America, and Invaders 7 picks up in London. I dont even see a mention of the Patriot. Im thinking this should be deleted from the Patriots chronology) 

Red Raven 
 
M/PRM 30 
*M/TIO@ 1 
*M/TIO 20 
INV 35-FB 

 

Thin Man/Bruce Dickson 
 
M/PRM 30 
*M/TIO@ 1 
*M/TIO 20 
INV 35-FB 
 

Whizzer/Robert L. Frank 
 
M/PRM 30 
M/TIO@ 1 
*M/TIO 20 
INV 35-FB 
 

Brain Drain/Werner Schmidt 
 
INV 2 
*M/TIO @1 
*M/TIO 20 
AF 108 
 

Master Man/Wilhelm Lohmer 
 
GSINV 1 
*M/TIO@1 
*M/TIO 20 
INV 16 
 

(This is based partially on publication dates, but also on when FF@ 11 would have been if it hadnt been set in an alternate past) 

Sky Shark 
*M/TIO@ 1-FB 
*{M/TIO@ 1} 
*M/TIO 20 
INV2 2 
INV2 4 

U-Man/Merrano 
 
INV 4 
*M/TIO@1 
*M/TIO 20 
INV 37 
... 

There's also a missing Hitler appearance, but I'm saving him for later.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

Last edited by Col_Fury on 06 Aug 2006 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 08:32 am    
By Arthur
Director

Weren't all those from a divergent timeline? 

OUR Blue Diamond (and the others) never experienced the happenings in M/TIO@ 1 & M/TIO 20.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2006 08:46 pm    
By Col_Fury

That was the case for FF@ 11 for the Invaders, because Reed Richards said so. However, it wasn't expressley stated for the Two-In-One issues. 

On the other hand, maybe this was cleared up in Two-In-One 79(where Blue Diamond appears again), which I will hopefully get my hands on this weekend. 

If it turns out that these events were in an alternate past like FF@ 11, then M/TIO@ 1 should be deleted from the Whizzer's chronology. 

However, if these are an alternate past, wouldn't the FlashBack for Sky Shark still 'count'? They occured before the divergence point, which was when the Thing appeared in 1942. So at the very least, the FlashBack should be added for him, right?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

One of the early forum archives discusses this (link at the bottom of the page). Sorry, but I don't remember *which* archive, off hand. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 07 Aug 2006 12:42 am    
By Col_Fury

Thanks for the pointer! Here's what I could find after searching the archives: 
Quote: 
>>>
IZANAMI II...JACK FROST...CELIA JACKSON 
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 22, 2002 at 09:05:06: 
 
JACK FROST/ 
M/PRM 30 
>>> M/TIO@ 1 <<< 
INV 35-FB 
Jack Frost currently has a listing for M/TIO@ 1. But no entry for M/TIO 20 
which is a direct continuation of M/TIO@ 1. The Liberty Legion and their 
Axis enemies all appear in both issues. These tales have to do with alternate 
time line stuff so I leave it to sharper minds to determine if they belong 
in MCP, but if one does, so does the other. 

Similar entries (i.e. already listed in M/TIO@ 1 but not M/TIO 20): Red 
Raven,Thin man 

Entered under neither: Miss America, Patriot, Whizzer, Sky Shark, U-Man, 
Master Man, Brain Drain (Brain Drain and U-Man have reference notes to their 
earlier Invaders appearance) 

Already entered under both: Blue Diamond 

Plus a cameo of a young Johnny Romita in M/TIO@ 1 
 
<<<

but I didn't see any follow up discussion, so here I am 3 & 1/2 years after the fact.(and I cant believe I forgot to mention young Johnny Romita!) 

In M/TIO 79, the Thing meets Blue Diamond in the current day, and Ben mentions meeting him before in WWII. Blue Diamond doesnt respond to the comment, but an editors note tells us to see M/TIO@ 1 & M/TIO 20. 

So we have a time travel story(M/TIO @ 1 & 20) with an editors reference to earlier 616 events,(INV) and a later 616 story(M/TIO 79) with an editors reference to said time travel story.(M/TIO @ 1 & 20) We also have the recent Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Golden Age 2004 that references the M/TIO@ 1 & 20 story in at least Blue Diamonds and Jack Frosts write-ups. 

Would editors notes and a handbook entry be enough to include these issues in the Liberty Legions chronologies?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 07 Aug 2006 07:26 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

That's not the thread I was referring to. We had a previous discussion about whether the Thing had met Blue Diamond. I'll try to find the correct archive later, but can't right now. If you have the archives already, I'd suggest performing a text search on "Blue Diamond". 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 07 Aug 2006 07:33 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Found it. Archive 52, Thread 64. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 07 Aug 2006 01:19 pm    
By Col_Fury

All questions answered. Thanks!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Posted: 06 Aug 2006 08:55 pm    Post subject: making sense of X-Factor annual #7
By zeus

So, I'm re-reading my X-Factor books, and I can't figure out where to put annual #7 (the Shattershot crossover). The book comes after PAD comes on board with the new team, and the first couple pages repeats the mayonaise jar gag from #71 or 72, which is very wierd; but the main problem is with Quicksilver (and Multiple Man to a limited extent). 

Havok makes a comment to Quicksilver about him not being able to use his speed without risking his health, which makes it sound like the issue is before #75, when the X-Factor team fights the Nasty Boys, and Mr. Sinister kills "Ricochet", who was turning Quicksilver's powers against him. 

However, Multiple Man is a part of the team at this point, which didn't happen until the big battle in #75; and Guido insists on being called Strong Guy, which he didn't come up with until the press conference where Multiple Man was seperated from the team until teh afrementioned #75. 

Quicksilver's listing puts the annual after #78, but how do you guys make sense of Havok and Quicksilver's comments about risking Quicksilver's health, and what on earth is that repeated mayonaise jar gag all about?

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2006 09:06 pm    
By Mikhail

Well, while the doc in #75 informed Quicksilver about the nature of his affliction, he did not tap Pietro on the head and say "Voila! You are cured now!" You could just assume it took Pietro some time to internalize the doctor's advice and truly get rid of his problem, and so for a brief period afterwards his speed could still be debilitating until he focused past it. 

How's that?

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Posted: 07 Aug 2006 09:39 am    
By zeus

I think we just kind of have to ignore the mayonaise jar pages, and assume that Pietro had off-panel issues with his powers in the issues in between #75 & this annual (After #78). Thanks.

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Posted: 07 Aug 2006 10:05 am   
By jephyork
Director

What's wrong with the mayo jar pages? Madrox obviously pulled the same joke twice; does it matter which order the gags go in? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 09 Aug 2006 04:15 am    
By metaldragon

They never did find out that the mayo jar was a gag Madrox played on them in XF 71. He just did it again, that's all. 

Does anyone know why all X-Factor's guest appearance issues were stuck between XF 78 & 79? There dosen't seem to be any DIRECT connection between Hulk 392 and XF 77 that excludes any other appearances by X-Factor as far as I can tell. I know that Val Cooper asks Jamie about his evil dupe situation (from XF 75) in XF 77 and mentions that she didn't get a chance to ask him about that earlier because of the War & Pieces crossover events (Hulk 390-391, XF 76, & 392). The only other connection is that Sinister hires the MLF to rescue the Nasty Boys X-Factor captured in XF 75 but it could have taken the MLF a while to put together a plan to spring them. I don't see why X-Factor Annual #7 can't fit in that gap between Hulk 392 and XF 77 to keep XF@ 7 as close to XF 75 (death of Ricochet) as possible so X-Factor still thinks Quicksilver is suffering from Ricochet's power. 

Jay
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 10 Aug 2006 11:23 am    
By metaldragon

Actually, I should research a bit more carefully before committing to post...  I read XF 79 again and discovered that Val joins the team in the field and wears a version of their uniform for the first time. X-Factor actually comments that this is the first time she's ever done that and tease her about it. In XF@ 7 she does it again and they don't comment on her outfit which is even more risque looking... so XF@ 7 should go after XF 79 then. Conclusion, I think: 

Quote: 
>>>
<snip> assume that Pietro had off-panel issues with his powers in the issues in between #75 & this annual (After #78). 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
You could just assume it took Pietro some time to internalize the doctor's advice and truly get rid of his problem, and so for a brief period afterwards his speed could still be debilitating until he focused past it. 
<<<

are probably the correct explanations. 

Anyone know why Alpha Flight 107 wasn't placed between Hulk 392 & X-Factor 77? It came out the same month as both those issues (Apr 1992) and my arguement in previous post still applies. Noone in X-Factor explains why Quicksilver doesn't appear in AF 107. Maybe he's guarding Slab and Hairbag the whole time?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 10

Posted: 11 Aug 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: Aunt May Correction
By garbonzo

PARKER, MAY REILLY 

ASM2 37-FB (argues with Ben the night of his death) 

This should be 
ASM2 38-FB 

So, the corrected chronology should read: 
PARKER, MAY REILLY 


{AAF 15} 
PPTSS 60/2 
AAF 15 
PPSM2 33-FB (sees Peter and Ben off to their annual Mets game) 
*ASM2 38-FB (argues with Ben the night of his death) * 

It is correct in the Ben Parker Timeline

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Thread 12

Posted: 11 Aug 2006 01:24 am    Post subject: ASM 38-FB
By Webslinger

Does ASM 38-FB even exist? 

I must've read Amazing Spidey #38 five times over and wasn't able to find the flashback that supposedly occurs in early Spider-Man chronology.

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Posted: 11 Aug 2006 09:01 am    
By garbonzo

I just checked my copy. No flashback. Perhaps volume 2? 

garbonzo

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Posted: 11 Aug 2006 12:44 pm    
By garbonzo

ASM2 #38 has a flashback for Peter Parker, but it is nothing that we have not seen before (Spidey not stopping the robber who eventually kills Uncle Ben). there is, however, a flashback that involves Aunt May and Uncle Ben that occurs during Amazing Fantasy 15. I believe it is an entirely new scene. But, I think the MCP already has that one listed?

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Posted: 11 Aug 2006 01:08 pm 
By garbonzo

Since the issue at hand is ASM@ 38, not ASM 38, my first proposal would be to change the listing from: 

Spider-Man 
PPTSS 60/2 
AAF 16 
AAF 17 
ASM 38-FB 
AAF 18 
WOSM 81-FB 

to 

Spider-Man 
PPTSS 60/2 
AAF 16 
AAF 17 
* ASM2 38-FB * 
AAF 18 
WOSM 81-FB 


What if we place the flashback here: 

AAF 15 (7:1 - 7:4) 
WOSM 90-FB (3:6 - 3:7) 
PPTSS 60/2 (10:4 - 10:5) 
AAF 15 (8:1 - 8:3) 
*ASM2 38-FB (between panels 2 and 3 of AAF 15 (8))* 
PPTSS 60/2 (11:3) 
AAF 15 (8:4 - 8:6) 
WOSM 90-FB (4:1 - 4: 3) 

My reasoning is that panel 2 shows the security guard chasing after the robber and Spider-man saying "Hey! What's going on??" Panel 3 shows the robber in the elevator and the doors closing. The robber is saying "Made it!" there is no reason to believe that there couldn't have been a couple of words said off panel that Peter is now remembering or thinking about.

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Posted: 11 Aug 2006 11:45 pm    
By Webslinger

Yeah I just checked ASM2 38 as well, and like ASM 38, nothing in it occurs between Amazing Fantasy 17 and Amazing Fantasy 18 or between ASM 5 and ASM 6 like the MCP states. I'm guessing it's a typo. 

As for the one-panel flashback of Peter and the burglar in ASM2 38, I agree there should be a place for it in between 8:2 and 8:3 of AAF #15.

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Thread 12

Posted: 13 Aug 2006 04:48 pm    Post subject: Hercules Chronology
By simmo

Hi guys, 

Was Just going through this, and noticed that he's listed for an appearance in Marvel Treaury Edition #13, when I have no record of this. He is, however, in MTE #24, which isn't listed. Can I get a confirmation on this? 

Cheers, 
Simmo

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Posted: 14 Aug 2006 11:03 pm    
by metaldragon

Marvel Treasury Edition #13 is the Christmas one with the Champions appearing near the very end, isn't it?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 05:54 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, M/TE 13 is a Christmas story and the Champions (including Herc) make an appearance.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 07:24 am    
By simmo

Interesting. Thanks guys. What about #24 though?

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 07:36 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Not sure what you mean. Hercules is listed in M/TE 24 between Avengers 181 and Thor 289. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 16 Aug 2006 06:00 am    
By simmo

Whoops...completely missed it. Cheers though.

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Thread 13

Posted: 18 Aug 2006 01:41 am    Post subject: Avengers in FF Annual #3
By Alpha Trion

Both Thor and Giant-Man have FF@ 3 listed after Avengers #22, but the Kooky Quartet all have the wedding listed between Avengers 18 and 19. Iron Man also has it before A 22. Can anyone hazard a guess as to which groups's got it right?

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Posted: 18 Aug 2006 06:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for pointing that out. Neither Thor nor Giant-Man actually appear in A 22, and at first glance, Thor's chronology around this time doesn't appear to match up with the chronology given at the back of the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 1. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Aug 2006 10:32 pm    
By Alpha Trion

Thor and Giant-Man do appear in A 22, in the same sense that Iron Man does. They each get one panel showing why they're each too busy to reform the Avengers: Iron Man is fighting the Awesome Android as seen in TOS 72, Thor is "returning to Asgard for his greatest battle," and Giant-Man is doing who-knows-what. 

The footnote in Thor's panel refers to JIM #122, which suggests he's arrived in Asgard to find Absorbing Man after Loki abducted him at the start of that issue. His MCP listing has him in A 22 between pg. 9 panels 1 & 2. He doesn't appear on page 9, and he never goes to Asgard in the issue. It seems rather odd to presume that he stood around on Bifrost for awhile behind the scenes. On page 15 of 122 when Harris Hobbs asks him to take him to Asgard, he decides to do it becaue he already has to go himself (to find Absorbing Man). I think the A 22 appearance fits in better between panels of JIM 123 pg 3, when the two of them arrive on the Rainbow Bridge and discover that Heimdall is not at his post. 

Iron Man's panel breakdown makes perfect sense to me, though I suppose Awesome Andy ought to have A 22 in his list as well.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2006 01:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

To quote from the entry for A 22 in the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, Vol. 1: 
"This story's reference to Iron Man currently battling the Mad Thinker's Android in the first story in TALES OF SUSPENSE #72 may be correct, but further chronological analysis is needed to confirm it. The reference to Thor in JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #122 is a flashback, because AVENGERS #22 takes place well after the wedding of Reed Richards and Sue Storm in FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #2 [sic], which follows Thor's return to earth in the first story in JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #123. Thor is by this time well into the lengthy adventure with the Olympians that begins in the first story in JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #124." 

Neither the first or second editions of the Avengers Index indicate a "real" appearance by Thor, Iron Man, or Giant-Man in A 22. It's as if the Indexers decided that those "cameo" appearances in A 22 are either duplicative or dismissable. Hmmm... 

If the Thor panel shows a visual not duplicated in JIM 122, then I'd recommend inserting a "A 22-FB," not a "A 22," between panels 1 and 2 of page 9 of JIM 122 and placing FF@ 3 between JIM 123 and 124, as noted in the Index. If the Iron Man panel shows a visual not duplicated in TOS 72, AND if A 22 is indeed contemporaneous with TOS 72, then it looks like we're good -- Iron Man does indeed appear in FF@ 3 before A 22. And if the Giant-Man panel has no particular reference to another story, then it would simply count as an appearance by him in A 22, but that appearance needs to come after FF@ 3, not before. 

So to answer the original question, "Which groups's got it right?" The answer would be "Iron Man."
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 14

Posted: 19 Aug 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject: DD2 37
By ADMINISTRATOR

Any thoughts on where the flashback in DD2 37 (with Matt and Elektra) takes place? 


watching: broken flowers

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Posted: 19 Aug 2006 03:41 pm    
By Col_Fury

DD 168-FB pg9pn1 is a montage showing Matt & Elektra falling in love, and ends with a caption saying "...and for a year they are euphoric." To me, this FlashBack montage shows their first handful of dates. 

DD2 37-FB shows Matt & Elektra in bed, early in their romance.(possibly the Morning After) Why early in their romance? They're having an early-romance conversation.  

I'd list it like this for both of them: 

DD 168-FB pg9pn1 
DD2 37-FB 
DD 168-FB pg9pn2-
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 15

Posted: 13 Aug 2006 08:15 am    Post subject: FF: First Family (spoilers for #6)
By Nathan P. Mahney

There are a couple of continuity problems with this series tthat might knock it out of the running for canonicity. Firstly, it's supposed to take place between Fantastic Four #1 and #2, but Sue's already using her force fields, and pretty frequently at that. Secondly, Reed proposes to Sue at the end of issue #6, but they're already engaged in the origin flashback from issue #1. Are these enough to declare it out of canon?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 13 Aug 2006 08:50 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I think so. It's way off the mark in terms of two fairly major storylines.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Aug 2006 06:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Maybe it's time to consign this comic to the same alternate universe that Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Professor X and the X-Men occupy...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Aug 2006 09:29 pm    
By JLH

Prof X & the X-Men's universe is currently duking it out with the Children of the Atom universe, actually. Uatu has it on his MulTIVOerse.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2006 05:35 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Actually, Chris Claremont added that Sue subconsciously threw up a force field when Torch went nova shortly after the origin crash. This instance also suggests that Sue doesn't have full control of her force field yet. No contradiction there. 

As for the engagement, Reed notes that he's looking to set an actual date, suggesting that their "engagement" was actually an engagement to be engaged. They don't officially announce that they're engaged at all until FF #36, which means that the engagement Sue mentions in FF #1 certainly isn't public knowledge. 

I don't think it warrants exclusion from continuity.

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Thread 16

Posted: 21 Aug 2006 01:12 pm    Post subject: Claws
By JD

Okay, does anyone have any idea about how this fits in continuity ? 

Spidey is flirting very heavily with the Black Cat, which would have suggested quite some time in the past, but then Cyclops and Emma are together at the mansion... 

Oh, and hasn't it already been said somewhere quite a while ago that Logan does have an official certificate for his metal inserts for airport security ? Why doesn't he have it anymore ?

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 02:42 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Oh, and hasn't it already been said somewhere quite a while ago that Logan does have an official certificate for his metal inserts for airport security ?  
<<<

I believe Larry Hama mentioned this on several occasions, possibly Claremont might have too, how else can Logan get on a commercial flight?

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 04:13 pm    
By Somebody

Marvel Knights books (post-reassignment of Daredevil, MK4, Squadron Supreme and any other ongoings I'm forgetting to the main imprint) are non-canon. Same deal as the abortive Startling Stories imprint of a few years back. 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Oh, and hasn't it already been said somewhere quite a while ago that Logan does have an official certificate for his metal inserts for airport security ?  
<<<

I believe Larry Hama mentioned this on several occasions, possibly Claremont might have too, how else can Logan get on a commercial flight? 
<<<

Just the opposite - Hama had him stripped to his underwear after failing to get through a metal detector at the start of the Death-of-Mariko story. 

Claremont had him use a pass, but that was to get into a military base in-uniform rather than for commercial flights.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 06:32 pm    
By Jason Doty

Somebody wrote 
>>>
Marvel Knights books (post-reassignment of Daredevil, MK4, Squadron Supreme and any other ongoings I'm forgetting to the main imprint) are non-canon. 
<<<

I thought all Marvel Knights books are canon, if they can be.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 07:06 pm    
By Somebody

Well, it was certainly my reading of this that "without constraints" (not least since 18+ stories still go to MAX) meant "without continuity".

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 08:09 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I thought all Marvel Knights books are canon, if they can be. 
<<<

That's half right. 

For our purposes, there are two ways that a regular book can be declared not canon. 

One is if it can't be, which is pretty much what you said. 

The other is if Marvel says it isn't. 

Now begins the debate of exactly what did Marvel editorial say. 


watching: jaws

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 08:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Spidey is flirting very heavily with the Black Cat, which would have suggested quite some time in the past, but then Cyclops and Emma are together at the mansion...  
<<<

This recent flirtation between Peter and Felicia is not unprecedented (tsk tsk). Check out SPIDER-MAN/BLACK CAT: THE EVIL THAT MEN DO #2, which we haven't declared non-canonical (yet). Of course, that mini-series had continuity problems because of the long delay in publication that occurred part way through.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 17

Posted: 17 Aug 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Iron Man vol. 4 #11 (spoilers)
By Kevin W.
Director

So I'm just curious: 

If we ignore words like "Taliban" and "Afganistan", (and maybe in our heads replace them with words like "Vietnam") do the flashbacks in this week's Iron Man work? Because I'm a bit lost...at what point in Iron Man history did Ho Yinsen get a chance to perform brain surgery on Tony Stark? 

And I'm not sure who these individuals that Tony's been assassinating are supposed to be? Are they supposed to be former "Taliban" officials? A man with a name like "Dennis Kellard" is a member of the Taliban?? 

And is it possible, with all of the heart problems that Tony Stark has had over the years, (and thus having all of the diagnostic checks on his own body), he never once detected an implant in his head?!?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 17 Aug 2006 01:23 pm    
By Somebody

Quote: 
>>>
And is it possible, with all of the heart problems that Tony Stark has had over the years, (and thus having all of the diagnostic checks on his own body), he never once detected an implant in his head?!? 
<<<

Not just that, but the cyberheart that he had irremovably jacked into all his body's systems not so long back has vanished. 

Yet this supposed implant has been there through him being killed (Crossing/Timeslide) and resurrected in a new body?! (IM2 1 or IM3 1 according to your preference). 

Not to mention the surgery, and prep therein, he had to put a chip in his head letting him walk again, the nervous-system wrecking parasite and the rebuilding of his body with the artificial nervous system that his resurrection magiced away but left this implant. 

No, this makes no bloody sense.

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Posted: 23 Aug 2006 06:28 pm    
By Grant

How in the world is Marvel or anyone going to reconcile the discrepancies currently seen in Iron Man? Have any of you reading the series noticed how there is not one, but two major plot contradictions running around in that series? I haven't been able to keep up with all the threads. 

First we have Nick Fury still in active duty as head of SHIELD after the New Avengers have already been formed. Brian Bendis stated on Newsarama that Secret War took place two weeks before the New Avengers formed. I guess we'd have to move Secret War forward, to after the first New Avengers story arc. Which ruins the sense of the story "Breakout". We know from reading it that that is not how we are meant to feel, that Fury is still around. Without explicitly saying anything about it, we get the sense that things have started going wrong with SHIELD ever since Fury was deposed. And Maria Hill was seen as in charge in the Savage Land. 

So now we'd have to read that escapade with the vibranium as something that was being covered up from Fury himself, and Hill was not acting as director of SHIELD, but was there acting in command because she was one of the higher ups in the hierarchy, the impression of which was given in the text pages of dialogue between her and the President in Secret War #5. Does anyone know of anything that would make this interpretation contradictory? I hope not, because it's the only way I can see this working. They had it all laid out perfectly, but then the editors and writers had to put Fury in there interacting with Iron Man and the New Avengers. 

The second problem that's even worse is having Spider-Man in the new costume, which would mean that Fury was around right before the Registration Act was passed, if the above explanation doesn't hold. But even if it does, that leaves you with Spider-Man getting the suit before Secret War, before House of M, before The Other, before Tony even made it for him in Amazing Spider-Man. None of those things, of course, fits the sense of the storylines that have played out over the past year. 

I can't believe that editors can't keep such simple things straight. 

Secret War. 

Fury's gone. 

Then New Avengers are formed. 

How hard can that be? 

If Fury was an integral part of the story, they could have had him, but have Captain America and Spider-Man appear without referring to them as the New Avengers in the issues where they used the team members. Or Captain America, Luke Cage, and Wolverine. Just not the whole team. That would have been too much of a coincidence.

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Posted: 23 Aug 2006 09:03 pm    
By dubj1979

Is it possible to put it after the start of Civil War, say when Fury Returns? 
I havent read any of it but I was just wondering.

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Posted: 23 Aug 2006 09:13 pm    
By Col_Fury

Part of me is hoping that in the next issue, Fury will be revealed to be an LMD in 'Execute Program.' The rest of me realizes that it won't happen. Whether it's actually stated or not, I agree with what Jeph suggested here: 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Uggggh. 

Okay, how about placing this IM4 arc before "Illuminati", and claiming that Tony didn't know about the Fury LMD until shortly before "Illuminati"? 

We can overlook the notion that his Extremis-powers should have alerted him to the fact that Fury wasn't real ... this would hardly be the first awkward placement for the Fury LMD. I suspect there'll be many more, all of which we'll HAVE to credit to the Fury LMD even if all the characters in the room are acting like he's real, until he finally resurfaces. 

Sigh.  
<<<

If for whatever reason it must be the real Fury, there is one exception we can use. Even though Fury is underground and there are orders to arrest him on sight, he did work with the government at least one time over in Punisher MAX, the Mother Russia arc. As stated in that story, he's on the outs with SHIELD, and he was hoping to get control of SHIELD back with this mission, a mission that no one else knew how to deal with. Again, if this has to be the real Fury in Execute Program, we could assume that he wsa working on this 'assignment' because of it's sensitive nature, and a temporary truce had been called. 

That said, that's a lot of BTS explaining to do on our part, and I don't really like it. Unless, of course, it's cleared up in Iron Man #12. Which I doubt. The LMD explanation works for me. 

As for the FlashBacks... I got nothing. Maybe the kid's lying?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Posted: 24 Aug 2006 03:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Tom Brevoort's already addressed this on his blog. It was MEANT to be the real Fury, but given events in other titles it plainly can't be, so evidently it must be the LMD from HULK. 

It can't be the real Nick Fury, because the New Avengers are up and running, which places the arc somewhere between NEW AVENGERS #1 and CIVIL WAR #1. Fury is underground, and Maria Hill is running SHIELD, for the entirety of that period. 

That begs the question of why Iron Man is reacting to Fury as a real person when he must know that Fury isn't running SHIELD, but there's no way around that.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Aug 2006 12:14 pm    
By Col_Fury

For those interested: 
http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Tom%20Brevoort/entry/148

Tom B wrote: 
>>>
I'm going to be explaining Nick Fury in IRON MAN every month until the storyline is done, I can see. Short answer: when we began work on that storyline, we couldn't be sure A) when these issus were going to ship, because we weren't sure when the Warren and Adi run would be wrapped, and B) when the end of SECRET WAR was going to ship. So we proceeded with Fury in place. As it worked out, SECRET WAR #5 came out first, and finally established Fury's status quo at that point in the Marvel Universe. But we've already established in the NEW AVENGERS ILLUMINATI Special that SHIELD has been using a sophisticated Fury LMD to stand in for Nick and cover his disappearance--so you can assume that the Fury in IRON MAN is probably the LMD (same as in HULK #88-91, as well as one or two other places that I'm not going to point out--why ask for trouble?) 
<<<

It's really the only answer, but it's nice to have it reinforced by Tom. Thanks for pointing this out, Paul! 

As for the Mind Control Device, as pointed out above, it's big reveal doesn't really work either. There's a possibility that this may be addressed in issue 12, but... 

The only FlashBack shown to us was Andrei Gorlovich being hired by mysterious people, and then that same guy killing the kid's mom. The rest is strung together by exposition. We aren't shown the brain surgery, the chip being put into Tony's head, etc. 

It could be that the kid is lying, or is just wrong.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

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Thread 18

Posted: 28 Aug 2006 03:39 pm    Post subject: Mojo II
By Dhall

MOJO II 
** {X@ 1} 
** UX@ 16 
X 10 
X 11 
M/FAN2 4 
M/FAN2 5 
W2 102.5

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Thread 19

Posted: 28 Aug 2006 04:16 am    Post subject: List of issues
By simmo

Is there anywhere that lists the issues of specific titles that are in continuity? 

I'm thinking of titles like Marvel Spotlight, Treasury Edition etc which have reprints or appearances by Alice Cooper or Starlord and the like. 

Cheers, 
Simon

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Posted: 28 Aug 2006 09:26 pm    
By Alpha Trion

This website should help you. It gives story titles for each issue, notes the focus character(s), and tells you if a story is being reprinted from somewhere else.

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Posted: 29 Aug 2006 06:57 am    
By simmo

I use that site all the time. 

i was just wondering if there were any extra sources though, due to my confusion with Marvel Treasury Edition in the Hercules thread. 

Cheers, 
Simon

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Posted: 29 Aug 2006 08:00 pm    
By Ant-Man

you might try www.comics.org (the Grand Comics Database)
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Thread 20

Posted: 30 Aug 2006 01:48 pm    Post subject: Punisher War Journal V1 Nr2
By necromancer

Hi all I have been silently watching your site for awhile now and am very impressed and happy with what you do here. I was just wondering why PWJ 2 is not on the Chronology. If it has been overlooked and needs done I would be more than happy to do that for you as it has some important flashbacks in it that are also missing, like Punisher in prison and escaping with Boomerang and also about his family being killed. Keep up the good work and let me know as I am a Punisher fan and have all of the comics and GN's. 
All the best.

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Thread 21

Posted: 11 Aug 2006 08:42 am    Post subject: Ultimate Elektra (updated)
By Xalibar

Is anyone else a little dissapointed with how elektra, or her origin at least, is in this universe? 

EDIT: Anyone? 

EDIT: I suppose i should've elaborated before. But i mean in the main marvel universe she showed character development. This info is just off the top of my head. 

Main Marvel Elektra 
She had a troubled childhood. She had martial arts training as a kid. She went to columbia where she met matt murdock. At the university her father and her were kidnapped. Her father was accidentally killed. After that she was so hurt she left matt and trained in japan under a sensei, and then with the chaste. She soon joined the hand where she killed her old japanese sensei and fell into their ways. Its after she joined the hand that she adopted the red color and outfit. She started using sai once one was hurled from the shadows killing a man that was attacking her. She also used traditional sai, that were not sharpened. She started using the sharpened ones once she started working for kingpin. I believe she also had some childhood emotional problems. 

Ultimate Elektra 
This is what i gathered from the ultimate DD&E and Ultimate Elektra series. Not her appearances in spider man. She seemed to be a new yorker, and her father owned a laundromat and wasn't a diplomat (niether which i liked). She went to columbia and met matt. But this time she left matt after he decided to take the college bully/rapist to the hospital instead of letting him die. Which doesn't seem, to me, to be emotioanlly traumatic to shut him out and dump him. Her sai, which were badly drawn and looked ugly, already in the dojo she trained at and were sharpened, and she seemed pretty drawn to them, always touching them. She also wore the red outfit. And she also seemed to be pretty good at martial arts the way she had no problem jumping from wall to wall to get to the top of the roof. 


This is pretty much why i feel the main elektra just seems better, not just because i'm used to her over ultimate elektra. The main one just seems to have a better drive to become what she is. I read that there is an ultimate daredevil mini series coming up concluding the ultimate DD&E three series story arc. Anyone have any thoughts?

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Thread 22

Posted: 28 Nov 2005 12:06 pm    Post subject: What title should I start with and so on...
By jccrux

I'd like to know if anyone knows what Ultimate Comic I should start of with because my friend was about to read my comics and I told him not to read them because it might be confusing for him. I told him to read the whole Ultimate Spiderman then ultimates then ultimate x-men then fantastic four and some of the other ultimate lines, but I realized that some comic issues had crossovers...He told me that he wanted to read all of them without being spoiled from other ultimate titles, So I taught of arranging them from the time they got released... But some titles don't go to were they supposed to be. 

If anyone have an idea of which should be read first pls reply back...Or most probably make a time table of which must be read first and then next comic...And It's not the chronology that I want, do you guys get what I mean? 

I remembered when I was reading Ultimate war , ultimates, ultimate spiderman and ultimate xmen, I read an event which happened in advance which supposed to be tackled on the other ultimate title first. 
To think that I've bought some of those titles on a particular month. So since I don't know which one I should start with, I grabbed one and got spoiled... 

Pls can someone post the first ultimate comic title that my friend should read... Not the chronology, but the way the comics should be read without being spoiled. 

Let say (example only) 
Read: 
Ultimate spiderman #1 
till 
Ultimate spiderman #20 
then 
Ultimate team-up #1 
Ultimate spiderman #22 
Ulitmates #1 
Ulimate Spiderman #25 
Ulitmate x-men #1 
Ultimates # 2 

and so on... 

Get what I mean? 
Heheheh... anyways thanks for reading my post and I hope that someone could help me with the problem..Thanks In advance!!!

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 05:04 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Ultimate titles are all basically self-contained. It really doesn't make a great deal of difference which one you start with, because the plots don't interweave a great deal. The Ultimate books tend to confine their crossovers to miniseries, and the only one which has actually had a significant impact is ULTIMATE WAR - which is already collected as part of ULTIMATE X-MEN's trade paperbacks.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 10:25 pm    
By jccrux

Yeah I think you're right, but it'll be better to read them on the same month and year of their release if I am to read all of them... Is that possible..except for ultimate war which I need to include in the x-men title... But how a bout the annuals and other mini-series do I have to read them too while reading the other ultimate titles too... How about marvel-team-ups. 

Would you suggest that I should read them according to their release dates... But how about the titles that cam out on the same month... It won't matter at all would it? 

Okay, but if their are titles from the mini-series that I need to add up or read along with the other Ultimate titles... Could you pls tell them to me... Thanks a lot!!! 

Do you have the time table off all the ultimate title including the mini-series, because I'll have a problem adding the min-series in the story....

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Posted: 28 Nov 2005 10:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Everything we have is on the Ultimate page. The link is at the bottom of this page. 


watching: pittsburg vs indianapolis

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Posted: 29 Nov 2005 02:24 am    
By jccrux

Thanks a lot, I made it!!! 
Here it is pls recheck!!! 
The order Which I think the story should be read 
Please let me know of the mistakes I've made or could you revise it aswell 

Ultimate Spiderman #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #3 
Ultimate Spiderman #4 
Ultimate X-men #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #5 
Ultimate X-men #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #6 
Ultimate X-men #3 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #7 
Ultimate X-men #4 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #8 
Ultimate X-men #5 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #3 
Ultimate Spiderman #9 
Ultimate X-men #6 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #4 
Ultimate Spiderman #10 
Ultimate X-men #7 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #5 
Ultimate Spiderman #11 
Ultimate X-men #8 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #6 
Ultimate Spiderman #12 
Ultimate X-men #9 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #7 
Ultimate Spiderman #13 
Ultimate X-men #10 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #8 
Ultimate Spiderman #14 
Ultimate X-men #11 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #9 
Ultimate Spiderman #15 
Ultimate X-men #12 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #10 
Ultimate Spiderman #16 
Ultimate X-men #13 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #11 
Ultimate Spiderman #17 
Ultimate X-men #14 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #12 
Ultimates #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #18 
Ultimate X-men #15 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #13 
Ultimates #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #19 
Ultimate Spiderman #20 
Ultimate X-men #16 
Ultimates #3 
Ultimate Spiderman #21 
Ultimate X-men #17 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #14 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #15 
Ultimates #4 
Ultimate Spiderman #22 
Ultimate Spiderman Special #1 
Ultimate X-men #18 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #16 
Ultimates #5 
Ultimate Spiderman #23 
Ultimate X-men #19 
Ultimates #6 
Ultimate Spiderman #24 
Ultimate X-men #20 
Ultimates #7 
Ultimate Spiderman #25 
Ultimate X-men #21 
Ultimate Spiderman #26 
Ultimate Spiderman #27 
Ultimate X-men #22 
Ultimates #8 
Ultimate Spiderman #28 
Ultimate Spiderman #29 
Ultimate X-men #23 
Ultimate Adventure #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #30 
Ultimate Spiderman #31 
Ultimate X-men #24 
Ultimate X-men #25 
Ultimate Adventure #2 
Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #32 
Ultimate Spiderman #33 
Ultimate X-men #26 
Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra #2 
Ultimate War #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #34 
Ultimate Spiderman #35 
Ultimate X-men #27 
Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra #3 
Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra #4 
Ultimate War #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #36 
Ultimate X-men #28 
Ultimate War #3 
Ultimate X-men #29 
Ultimate War #4 
Ultimates #9 
Ultimate Spiderman #37 
Ultimate X-men #30 
Ultimate X-men #31 
Ultimate Spiderman #38 
Ultimate Spiderman #39 
Ultimate Spiderman #1/2 
Ultimate X-men #32 
Ultimate X-men #1/2 
Ultimate Adventure #3 
Ultimate Spiderman #40 
Ultimate Spiderman #41 
Ultimate X-men #33 
Ultimate Adventure #4 
Ultimates #10 
Ultimate Spiderman #42 
Ultimate X-men #34 
Ultimate Adventure #5 
Ultimates #11 
Ultimate Spiderman #43 
Ultimate X-men #35 
Ultimate Adventure #6 
Ultimate Spiderman #44 
Ultimate Spiderman #45 
Ultimate X-men #36 
Ultimate Spiderman #46 
Ultimate X-men #37 
Ultimates #12 
Ultimate Six #1 
Ultimate Six #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #47 
Ultimate Spiderman #48 
Ultimate X-men #38 
Ultimate Six #3 
Ultimate Spiderman #49 
Ultimate X-men #39 
Ultimate Six #4 
Ultimate Spiderman #50 
Ultimate Spiderman #51 
Ultimate X-men #40 
Ultimate Six #5 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #52 
Ultimate X-men #41 
Ultimates #13 
Ultimate Six #6 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #53 
Ultimate X-men #42 
Ultimate Six #7 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #3 
Ultimate Spiderman #54 
Ultimate Spiderman #55 
Ultimate X-men #43 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #4 
Ultimate Spiderman #56 
Ultimate Spiderman #57 
Ultimate X-men #44 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #5 
Ultimate Spiderman #58 
Ultimate Spiderman #59 
Ultimate X-men #45 
Ultimate X-men #46 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #6 
Ultimate Spiderman #60 
Ultimate Spiderman #61 
Ultimate X-men #47 
Ultimate X-men #48 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #7 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #8 
Ultimate Spiderman #62 
Ultimate X-men #49 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #9 
Ultimate Spiderman #63 
Ultimate Spiderman #64 
Ultimate X-men #50 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #10 
Ultimate Elektra #1 
Ultimate Nightmare #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #65 
Ultimate X-men #51 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #11 
Ultimate Elektra #2 
Ultimate Nightmare #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #66 
Ultimate Spiderman #67 
Ultimate X-men #52 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #12 
Ultimate Elektra #3 
Ultimate Nightmare #3 
Ultimate Spiderman #68 
Ultimate Spiderman #69 
Ultimate X-men #53 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #13 
Ultimate Elektra #4 
Ultimate Nightmare #4 
Ultimate Spiderman #70 
Ultimate X-men #54 
Ultimates Vol2 #1 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #14 
Ultimate Elektra #5 
Ultimate Nightmare #5 
Ultimate Spiderman #71 
Ultimate X-men #55 
Ultimates Vol2 #2 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #15 
Ultimate Spiderman #72 
Ultimate X-men #56 
Ultimates Vol2 #3 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #16 
Ultimate Spiderman #73 
Ultimate Spiderman #74 
Ultimate X-men #57 
Ultimates Vol2 #4 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #17 
Ultimate Iron Man #1 
Ultimate Secret #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #75 
Ultimate Spiderman #76 
Ultimate X-men #58 
Ultimates Vol2 #5 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #18 
Ultimate Iron Man #2 
Ultimate Secret #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #77 
Ultimate X-men #59 
Ultimates Vol2 #6 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #19 
Ultimate Spiderman #78 
Ultimate X-men #60 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #20 
Ultimate Spiderman #79 
Ultimate Spiderman #80 
Ultimate X-men #61 
Ultimates Vol2 #7 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #21 
Ultimate Iron Man #3 
Ultimate Spiderman #81 
Ultimate Spiderman Annual #1 
Ultimate X-men #62 
Ultimate X-men Annual #1 
Ultimates Annual #1 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #22 
Ultimate Fantastic Four Annual #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #82 
Ultimate Spiderman #83 
Ultimate X-men #63 
Ultimates Vol2 #8 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #23 
Ultimate Iron Man #4 
Ultimate Secret #3 
Ultimate Spiderman #84 
Ultimate X-men #64 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #24 
Ultimate Secret #4 
Ultimate Spiderman #85 
Ultimate Spiderman #86 (With Ultimate Vision #1) 
Ultimate X-men #65 (With Ultimate Vision #2) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #25 (With Ultimate Vision #3) 
Ultimates Vol2 #9 
Ultimate Spiderman #87 (With Ultimate Vision #4) 
Ultimate Iron Man #5 
Ultimate Wolverine Vs Hulk #1 
Ultimate X-men/Fantastic Four #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #88 (With Ultimate Vision #5) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #26 (With Ultimate Vision #6) 
Ultimate Extinction #1 
Ultimate X-men #66 
Ultimates Vol2 #10 
Ultimate Fantastic Four/X-men #1 
Ultimate Spiderman #89 
Ultimate Extinction #2 
Ultimate X-men #67 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #27 
Ultimate Wolverine Vs Hulk #2 
Ultimate Spiderman #90 
Ultimate Spiderman #91 
Ultimate X-men #68 
Ultimate Extinction #3 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #28 
Ultimate Spiderman #92 
Ultimate X-men #69 
Ultimate Extinction #4 
Ultimate Spiderman #93 
Ultimates Vol2 #11 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #29 
Ultimate Spiderman #94 
Ultimate Wolverine Vs Hulk #3**** 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #30 
Ultimate X-men #70 
Ultimate Extinction #5 
Ultimate Spiderman #95 
Ultimate X-men #71 
Ultimate Spiderman #96 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #31 
Ultimate Spiderman #97 
Ultimate X-men #72 
Ultimate Spiderman #98 
Ultimate Spiderman Annual #2 
Ultimate X-men #73 



Others: 
Official Handbook of the Ultimate Marvel Universe #1 - The Fantastic Four and Spiderman 
The Official Handbook of the Ultimate Marvel Universe #2- The Ultimates & X-Men 

Release Dates of New Comics... 
Some Dates may be tentative but mostly accurate 


07-26-06 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #32 

08-16-06 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #32 
Ultimate Fantastic Four Annual #2 

08-23-06 
Ultimate Spiderman #99 
Ultimates Annual #2 

08-30-06 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #33 
Ultimate X-men Annual #2 

09-13-06 
Ultimate X-men #74 

09-20-06 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #34 

09-27-06 
Ultimate Spiderman #100 
Ultimates Vol2 #12 

10-11-06 
Ultimate Power #1 

10-18-06 
Ultimate Fantastic Four #35 

10-25-06 
Ultimate Spiderman #101

Last edited by jccrux on 15 Aug 2006 10:28 pm; edited 29 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Nov 2005 02:28 am    
By jccrux

I don't know if the order for the annuals are right but then again I'll try to change things if possible...

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2006 10:12 pm    
By jccrux

Updated this thing... 

Look up

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Aug 2006 10:19 pm    
By jccrux

updated the first page

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 06 Aug 2006 08:42 am    Post subject: Runaways vol 2 #14-18
By JD

RUNAWAYS v2 #14-18 
Writer : Brian K Vaughan 
Penciller : Adrian Alphona 
Inker : Craig Yeung 
Published from March to July 2006 

Cast : 
- The Runaways : (Nico Minoru/Sister Grimm, Gertrude Yorkes/Arsenic 2, Molly Hayes/Bruiser/Princess Powerful, Chase Stein/Talkback, Victor Mancha/Victorious, Old Lace) 
- (re-)join the team at the end : Karolina Dean/Lucy in the Sky, Xavin 
- The New Pride : Geoffrey Wilder/"Chamber" 2, Oscar, Hunter, Lotus, Stretch 
- In flashbacks : Alex & Catherine Wilder 

RUNAWAYS v2 #14 
pages 1-4 : "Tarnak VII, yesterday" 
Characters : Xavin, Karolina 
Karolina and Xavin prepare for their wedding. 

Note : It's been "a few months" since RUN2 #8. 

pages 5-10 : "The La Brea tar pits [the Runaways' hideout], today" 
Characters : Molly, Chase, Victor, Gert, Nico, Old Lace 
Since this is the beginning of a new digest, the Runaways happily recap RUNAWAYS v1 for the benefit of the newbie, Victor. 

Notes : - Chase will turn 18 in two weeks. 
- Molly is still grounded since their "last battle", where she disappeared (off-panel in RUN2 #13). So no gap for FCBD 2006/1 to happen between #13 and #14 : it has to be between #12 and #13. 

pages 11-16 : Flashback : "eighteen months ago" 
Characters : Alex, Geoffrey & Catherine Wilder, Oscar, Hunter, Lotus, Stretch 
Alex is playing the "Marvel Superheroes" MMORPG with his circle of online friends but is interrupted by his parents. 

Notes : 
- This is the same game Alex plays in the opening of RUN #1. And here the problems start : we do see other characters in Alex's game in RUN #1. Since we only see their avatars there, we can't be certain it's really them, but everything we see in this arc suggests that they were Alex's regular playing buddies and thus are the other players in RUN #1. They use the same avatars : Daredevil (Lotus), Spider-Man (Oscar), Hulk (Hunter)... The fifth player is playing a very skanky Invisible Woman, which fits with Stretch's habit of frequently changing avatars and his taste for scantily-clothed characters (he plays Emma Frost in her New X-Men costume in the flashback, and is mentionned to have previously played Ms Marvel). So yeah, I think they deserve a full appearance for RUN #1 (they all have speaking parts there, even if we don't see them "in person"). 
- Lotus, Hunter and Stretch are now fully recognisable as members of the New Pride in RUN2 #6 and #12. 
- Of course, all this may be quite academic, since I'm not sure these four guys qualify for inclusion in the MCP : we don't know their full names. 
- Second problem : where does this flashback fit into Alex's (and his parents') chronology ? Since the next flashback is "a few months later", and is set after Alex's death, I'm inclined to think it happened shortly before RUN #1. Moreover, we've been told in RUN #1 told that the game is a "birthday present", and that the Wilders are surprised that Alex is still playing at it ; so this cannot really happen before all the "one year before" flashbacks in RUN #17. 

pages 17-18 : Flashback : "a few months later" 
Characters : Oscar, Hunter, Lotus, Stretch 
Some time after Alex's "disparition" (in RUN #17), his gamer friends have a reunion where Hunter says he's hacked into Alex's old account and seen a (biased) presentation of the Pride, as well as instruction to bring him back. 

pages 19-22 : Flashback : "The Minoru Summer Home, months later" 
Characters : Oscar, Hunter, Lotus, Stretch, Geoffrey Wilder 
Alex's friends have gathered all the necessary items and try to perform Alex's resurrection (actually, a time-travel spell to get him before he dies). But it backfires, as Oscar is killed and it is actually a young Geoffrey Wilder that is brought back. 

Note : 
- When has Geoffrey been absconded from ? Well, further issues (mostly #15 and #18) will make it more explicit, but from appearance (age and clothes) he looks from between the first and second flashbacks in RUN #13 (the one where the Gibborim abscond the Pride, and the one three years later where the Pride decide to have kids). 

RUNAWAYS #15 
Night. 
Characters : Nico, Chase, Gert, Molly, Victor, Old Lace, Geoffrey Wilder, Hunter, Lotus, Stretch 
The New Pride lure the Runaways at the Wilders' old house, sow zizany between them, and kidnap Molly in the confusion. 

Notes : 
- I have really no idea if this is the night following #14, or if it is some days after. Could be either way, but I think such a gap would probably have been made explicit. 
- Geoffrey Wilder was taken in 1985. Topical, obviously : it really means "21 years ago". Conveniently, a bit less than 18 months have passed since RUN #13, where we were told that the Pride's formation by the Gibborim was "20 years ago". So he was taken at most a few months after the first FB in RUN #13 (his dialogue in this issue makes it clear that the Pride has already been formed at this point). 

RUNAWAYS #16 
Directly continued from the last issue. All at night. 
Characters : Nico, Chase, Gert, Molly, Victor, Old Lace, Geoffrey Wilder, Hunter, Lotus, Stretch, Karolina, Xavin-BTS 
Somes astronomers see Tarnak VII go supernova. Meanwhile, the Runaways heal their wounds, discover that Victor is their new mole (the New Pride have hacked into him, as seen last issue), and Karolina comes back just in time to stop the fighting. Also meanwhile, Geoffrey Wilder consults with the Gibborim and plans to give them Molly in sacrifice. 

Note : 
- I noted Xavin as BTS, since next issue makes clear that s/he has arrived at the end at the same time as Karolina (s/he keeps invisible to stay out of trouble). 

RUNAWAYS #17 
Directly continued from the last issue. All at night (are we in winter or what ? Nights sure are quite long here...) 
Characters : Nico, Chase, Gert, Molly, Victor, Old Lace, Karolina, Xavin, Geoffrey Wilder, Hunter, Lotus, Stretch 
The Runaways reconcile and go look into the Minorus' old summer house (where Victor has traced the New Pride's hack coming from). It's a trap (it blows up on them), but they escape and find the New Pride's real hideout (near the Griffith Observatory). They fight the New Pride, while "Nico" (actually Xavin in disguise) slips to try and rescue Molly, but is shot by Geoffrey Wilder. 
Oh, and we're told that the Skrull/Majesdane reconcilation failed big time (we're talking anti-matter annihilation of both planets). Xavin and Karolina barely escaped, and they are now runaways. 

RUNAWAYS #18 
Still the same night, continued directly from last issue 
Characters : Nico, Chase, Gert, Molly, Victor, Old Lace, Karolina, Xavin, Geoffrey Wilder, Hunter, Lotus, Stretch, Catherine Wilder-FB 
Xavin survives, obviously. The Runaways manage to take down Geoffrey Wilder and convince the rest of the New Pride that they manipulated. They send Geoffrey back to his time (we have a short "flashback" of his arrival in page 22) after having made him forget everything. 
Oh, and Gert dies (she transfers her link to Old Lace to Chase). 

So, to summarise the trickier flashback parts : 

GEOFFREY WILDER/"CHAMBER" 2 
RUN 13-FB (pp3-10,13-17) 
**RUN2 14-FB (pp19-22) 
**RUN2 1 
**RUN2 2 
**RUN2 3 
**RUN2 4 
**RUN2 5 
**RUN2 6 
**RUN2 12 
**RUN2 15 
**RUN2 16 
**RUN2 17 
**RUN2 18 
**RUN2 18-FB (p22) 
RUN 13-FB (pp19-21) 
RUN 17-FB (pp4-5) 
**RUN2 14-FB (pp11-16) 
RUN 1 
... 

CATHERINE WILDER 
RUN 13-FB (pp3-10,13-17) 
**RUN2 14-FB (pp19-22) 
**RUN2 18-FB (p22) 
RUN 13-FB (pp19-21) 
RUN 17-FB (pp4-5) 
**RUN2 14-FB (pp11-16) 
RUN 1 
... 

ALEX WILDER 
RUN 17-FB (pp4-6) 
**RUN2 14-FB (pp11-16) 
RUN 1 
... 

**LOTUS 
RUN2 14-FB (pp11-16) 
RUN 1 
RUN2 14-FB (pp17-18) 
RUN2 14-FB (pp19-22) 
RUN2 6 
RUN2 12 
RUN2 15 
RUN2 16 
RUN2 17 
RUN2 18 

**STRETCH 
RUN2 14-FB (pp11-16) 
RUN 1 
RUN2 14-FB (pp17-18) 
RUN2 14-FB (pp19-22) 
RUN2 6 
RUN2 12 
RUN2 15 
RUN2 16 
RUN2 17 
RUN2 18 

**HUNTER 
RUN2 14-FB (pp11-16) 
RUN 1 
RUN2 14-FB (pp17-18) 
RUN2 14-FB (pp19-22) 
RUN2 6 
RUN2 12 
RUN2 15 
RUN2 16 
RUN2 17 
RUN2 18 

**OSCAR 
RUN2 14-FB (pp11-16) 
RUN 1 
RUN2 14-FB (pp17-18) 
RUN2 14-FB (pp19-22) 

For the other characters, the additions are pretty straightforward. 

I couldn't find the analyses for RUNAWAYS v1, and they haven't been incorporated yet into the MCP, so I've reconstituted sketchily the flashbacks involving the Wilders. If I've missed any, please tell.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2006 09:36 am    
By Somebody

JD wrote: 
>>>
Somes astronomers see Tarnak VII go supernova. 
[...] 
Oh, and we're told that the Skrull/Majesdane reconcilation failed big time (we're talking anti-matter annihilation of both planets). Xavin and Karolina barely escaped, and they are now runaways. 
<<<

Dontcha just love it when writers forget minor stuff like the speed of light...

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2006 04:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, JD. What is "FCBD 2006/1?"
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2006 04:25 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
What is "FCBD 2006/1?" 
<<<

The X-Men/Runaways story for Free Comic Book Day 2006. Analysis here : 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2368

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 04 Jun 2006 05:25 pm    Post subject: X-Men - Apocalypse vs Dracula and New Excalibur #9
By Somebody

For simplicity, I'm going to analyse this in three parts: First, the present-day framing sequence, set between Cable/Deadpool #27 and X-Men #181. Next, the medieval sequence from issue 1, set in 1457. And finally, both because it's longest and most complex, the Victorian-era stuff that's at the core of the mini. 

And Jeph - Apocalypse is drawn with his Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix look throughout the Victorian-era stuff, despite the covers  

X-Men - Apocalypse vs Dracula 
Written by Frank Tieri, pencils by Clayton Henry 

and, since it's a direct sequel, I may as well add 

New Excalibur #9 
Written by Frank Tieri, pencils by Scott Kolins

Last edited by Somebody on 08 Aug 2006 08:13 am; edited 2 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2006 05:26 pm    
By Somebody

Present Day scenes 

X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #1 (pages 8-9) 

Egypt, "weeks" after Cable/Deadpool #27 (time based on C/D #27, not this mini). Day. 

Ozymandas, sequing from remembering an Apocalypse vs. Vlad Tepes incident in 1459 Romania, enters a pyramid by using a tattoo of the Akkaba symbol (seen throughout the Victorian-era flashbacks and in X-Men #182-186) to activate a reciprical symbol on a trapdoor. He goes down the stairs, throws off his blue trenchcoat, walking past carved scenes in the background (presumably chiselled by Ozy) showing a man on horseback, an early monowinged plane and an early cannon vs. some soldiers 

He looks at Apocalypse in his crysalis chamber - visibly whole and in costume, unlike the Necropocalypse of Cable/Deadpool #27. Panel 4 has carved images of Archangel (metal wings), Apocalypse carrying what might be a child, and Mr Sinister. 

He then starts thinking about how this time Apoc will rise to save rather than test mutantkind, like once before (seque into Victorian flashback) 


X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #2 (page 15) 

With Apocalypse's chamber in the background, Ozymandas looks over some carvings he has made, of "tales" he'd heard, involving vampires arising as a result of the Egyptian god Set. 


X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #3 (page 12) 

Ozymandas, Apocalypse's chamber again in the background, looks over carvings representing events in the main (flashback) story and begins to carve some more. 


X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #4 (page 22 panel 5, page 23) 

Ozymandas, looking over Apocalypse's crysalis chamber, finishes relating the story, noting how Apocalypse had learned from his encounter with Dracula how his blood "was power in and of itself", thinks how it was how Apocalypse would rise again (Re: C/D #27) - and how it was time for Apocalypse to rise on his terms - and walks off. Apocalypse then wakes, leading into X-Men #181. 


Chronology: 

APOCALYPSE/EN SABAH NUR 
[...] 
CDP 27 
X:A/D 1 
X:A/D 2-BTS 
X:A/D 3-BTS 
X:A/D 4 
X 181 
[Blood of Apocalypse] 

OZYMANDIAS 
[...] 
CDP 27 
X:A/D 1 
X:A/D 2 
X:A/D 3 
X:A/D 4 
[Blood of Apocalypse]

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2006 06:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Somebody.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2006 05:11 pm    
By Enda80

Nice to see Van Helsing. 

Somebody in #2 thinks that vampires started in Egypt with worshippers of Set(h). We even see smeary hireoglyphs showing vampires in ancient Egypt. Mistakes made by characters, I guess? 

Nice if we could set this somewhere in Seth's chronology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2006 05:40 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Did Seth make an appearance? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2006 10:10 am    
By Enda80

X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #2 (page 15) 

With Apocalypse's chamber in the background, Ozymandas looks over some carvings he has made, of "tales" he'd heard, involving vampires arising as a result of the Egyptian god Set. 

We see Seth in the fb in his more jackal-looking form.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2006 11:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

That doesn't sound like a FB to me. Do we see an actual flashback, or are we just looking at the carvings? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2006 05:03 pm    
By Somebody

Carvings.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jul 2006 07:36 pm    
By Somebody

Crusades scene 

X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #1 (pages 1-7) 

Romania, 1459 

Vlad the Impaler/Dracula kills a lot of Turks. The Riders of the Dark, led by a hitherto-unseen War (Horseman), then come in and rout him and his army, War defeats Vlad, then Apocalypse comes in, finds Vlad still conscious and stamps on him. 

I'm calling it a flashback since there's present-day narration from Ozymadias over it, but you could argue otherwise, since the framing sequence starts immediately AFTER this sequence. 

Ozymadias gets a BTS since, not only does he narrate, but more importantly he reminds Apocalypse of the encounter in the Victorian-era scenes. 

Having looked through Black Knight: Exodus, I see no clues as to which way round they go. Anyone got the earlier stories where the BK was trapped in that time period to see if they give a date? (I've provisionally put BK:E first on publication order, but it is quite possible that they should go the other way around). 

As I said before, I have no idea of where in Dracula's continuity this goes. 

APOCALYPSE/EN SABAH NUR 
[...] 
XFOR 37-FB 
BK:E 
X:A/D 1-FB 
C&P2 1 
[...] 

DRACULA/VLAD TEPES 
[...] 
X:A/D 1-FB 
[...] 

OZYMANDIAS 
[...] 
ROA 4 ~ FF 19-BTS ~ DRSTR2 53-BTS ~ WCA2 22-BTS 
X:A/D 1-FB-BTS 
GAM3 14 
[...] 

WAR (next number) 
X:A/D 1-FB

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jul 2006 09:50 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Having looked through Black Knight: Exodus, I see no clues as to which way round they go. Anyone got the earlier stories where the BK was trapped in that time period to see if they give a date? (I've provisionally put BK:E first on publication order, but it is quite possible that they should go the other way around). 
<<<

BK:E goes first. Eobar Garrington, the (other) Black Knight in BK:E, lived at the end of the 12th century and participated in the Third Crusade. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
As I said before, I have no idea of where in Dracula's continuity this goes. 
<<<

Between scenes in Dracula Lives #2 - specifically, between DL 2 page 3 panel 3 (Dracula's troops are overrun by the Turks) and page 3 panel 4 (the Turks find Dracula mortally wounded amidst the dead of both armies). Dracula's armor in this flashback doesn't match up with the armor that he was wearing in the original story, but I'd write that off as the artist not having the original stories for reference and using Coppola's Dracula instead. 

DL 2 & 3 are the story of how Dracula became a vampire, and were set in 1452, not 1459; every other reference to his origin has retained that year. According to the chronology in the beginning of Essential Tomb of Dracula vol. 4, DL 4/5 and TOD MAG 2/2 both occur in 1459; the writer of X:A/D might have confused the year given for these stories with that given for Dracula's origin. Neither year is more historically appropriate than the other - the historical Dracula died in 1476. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2006 08:11 am    
By Somebody

Okay, I was looking for the Gambit issues mentioned in Apoc and Ozy's continuity to see where they fit, but if I still have them they're buried deep. 

Victorian era (1897) scenes: 

X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #3 (pages 14-15) 

In a montage covering some time [the first panel is set, apparently, in Ancient Egypt, "thousands of years ago", but no recognisable characters are visible], Frederick Slade is identified by Ozymandias as possessing many qualities usually absent, including compassion, in Clan Akkaba members, as well as the great power - which, in addition to shapeshifting, involved teleportation - needed to become "Fittest", the next-best thing to Apocalypse himself and de facto Clan leader. He then trains him in the skills needed to become Fittest - but before Frederick can become Fittest, he is brutally attacked in his sleep by his brother, Hamilton Slade, rendering him mute and disabled. Hamilton then becomes Fittest, and makes Frederick a Council member of the Clan as an example to those who might oppose him. 

X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #1 (pages 10-23) 

Two policemen find a body drained of blood and reflect that this is the fourth such case in a couple of days. They find a tiny, hieroglyphic-like, tattoo on her neck and, despite the efforts of Inspector Jack Starsmore (when he belatedly arrives) to dissuade them, they decide to visit Alexandria House, as "it's the only lead" they have; as Dracula himself looks on. 

There, Hamilton Slade gives them a potted history of Clan Akkaba (no identifiable characters in the flashbacks), says that the size of the tattoo conveys how much of Apocalypse's blood (and thus, power) they have in them, shows them his tattoo, which covers his chest, and then kills them. 

Slade then dresses down Starsmore for not getting to the body in time to burn the tattoo off, as he had with the previous victims, because of Starsmore's opium addiction, then goes to investigate himself. It then switches to narration, saying that this was the last time Slade was seen alive, and, via Ozymandias' carvings (characters not identifiable) shows a vote of Clan Akkaba's council, and them marching towards Apocalypse's regeneration chamber. The issue ends with Apocalypse being awoken (no other character shown) 


X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #2 (pages 1-14, 16-23) 

In London's Chinatown, at night, Starsmore lies in an opium stupor in an opium house, until he is accosted by a figure in a top hat and scarf (Abraham van Helsing). 

Clan Akkaba's High Council sits around a table, nervous. Eventually, the one to be killed by Apocalypse as punishment for summoning him is selected and killed, and Apocalypse takes his seat. Kabir Brashir introduces himself as the "Fittest" (and thus spokesman), but Margaret Slade violently objects to this until he strangles her, forcing her to submit. Apocalypse, not amused, demands they tell him why he was summoned, when Starsmore appears at the door, saying "our people" (the clan) are being killed. 

Apocalypse, annoyed at being addressed by a "Lesser", tells him to hurry up after he explains that he's the investigator. Starsmore then explains it started "several weeks ago," that clan members were being targeted, and they had been found drained of blood (there are two flashback panels here, Starsmore the only relevant character, set pre-the issue 1 Victorian-era stuff). Van Helsing then enters, and is recognised by Apocalypse as the two had met before (with Van Helsing placing their previous meeting as "years" before, and involving VH mistaking Apocalypse for a vampire). 

Kabir and Margaret object to the very idea of vampires, and Apocalypse implicitly agrees, crushing Van Helsing's book when he shows him a picture of Dracula, and saying that the name has no meaning to him. Ozymandias then brings up the events of the Crusades-era flashback, saying that Dracula had "fought to his dying breath." Van Helsing says that Dracula isn't dead, and tells Apocalypse to go with him to the morgue to see the dead clan members as proof. Brashir tries to order Van Helsing out, but VH demands an answer from Apocalypse - and Apocalypse accedes, albeit with a threat. In narration, Ozymandias reflects that was because Apocalypse knew, deep down, that VH was right. 

At the morgue "that day", Apocalypse, VH, Starsmore and Ozymandias find the bodies of the Clan members apparently gone - until VH lights a match and points up, where the three, now-undead, clan members cling to the ceiling. When they ignore Apocalypse's orders to submit, he then snaps the necks of all three simultaneously, but they rise and attack him again. Starsmore blows flames at them, but it doesn't stop them, and VH uses Holy Water on them, stunning them. He then tries to stake them, but Apocalypse grows stakes from his fingers and does it himself, then says they are to return to Alexandria House. 

Meanwhile, at AH, Margaret Slade is greeted by her son, Hamilton - and his new lord, Count Vlad Dracula. 


X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #3 (pages 3-11 + carvings on p12) 

Arriving back at Alexandria House, the four who had visited the morgue find Brashir dead, his throat ripped out, and the abandoned Frederick Slade the only other person in the meeting room. 

Hamilton Slade then bursts through the wall, and calmly introduces himself, a crowd of Clan Akkaba vampires behind him. 

Slade attacks Apocalypse, but as Apocalypse is about to sever his head, the rest of the Akkaba-vampires attack en masse, and an angry Apocalypse is overwhelmed - but as Slade prepares to bite him, VH presses a cross into his face and Starsmore drives the crows back with his fire, then, to the surprise of all but Ozymandias, Frederick teleports them all out, to an abandoned farmhouse from his youth. While the others hide in the house's attic, Apocalypse goes outside to wait for the Akkaba-vampires to arrive. 

X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #3 (pages 1-2) 

In the farmhouse, VH directs Starsmore to rub garlic on all the doors and windows, as it "will help a little", as Starsmore boards them up, saying in response to a query that they'll have to wait a "few hours" for something that "will help a lot" (i.e., the Sun). 

Meanwhile, Apocalypse continues to wait outside. 

X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #3 (pages 13, 15p2-23) 

VH asks Ozymandias why he wasn't surprised at Frederick teleporting them out, and he explains, then excuses himself as having "much work to do." 

Starsmore comments Ozymandias must have "seen something he didn't like," whereupon VH notices his hand shaking, asking him how long it had been since he had last had his opium. Reluctantly, Starsmore says it had been eight hours (presumably, since he was accosted by VH in the opium-house at the start of issue 2), and swears he has smoked his last. 

An unclear amount of time later - though still the same night/morning - the Akkaba-vampires fly in, and the main group, including Ozymandias' animated carvings, are drawn into battle in the house while Apocalypse fights alone outside. The battle rages for "Hours" until the sun rises and the vampires are all killed. 

"Upon that new day," they go to Alexandria House, Apocalypse stakes the (turned but not yet risen?) vampires in coffins in the basement, and they burn the house down. 

That night, watching the house burn, Starsmore complains about all the history - and his clan - being wiped out, but Apocalypse tells him never to mention them again in his presence upon pain of death. VH comments that he didn't see [Hamilton] Slade's coffin, and Apocalypse informs him that he "has run to his vampire master in Transylvania". VH says he would have guessed so, but how did he know it - and Apocalypse says he can sense it, showing the bitemark he had received from a bat in the fight. VH starts to warn him, but Apocalypse cuts him off, saying he had healed from far worse, and needs only to reach his rejuvenation chamber. The camera then cuts to the smashed chamber. 

[The unturned] Margaret Slade is then shown conveying Hamilton - in-coffin, VH's cross-mark still on his face - to Count Duckula's castle, as Dracula watches out a window. 


X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #4 

Hamilton Slade informs Dracula that "... your Clan... is gone", to which Dracula replies "Yes, I know," and offers Hamilton a bite of the terrified maiden he's about to drink from, to which Hamilton declines, saying he had already eaten. When asked how he learned of the Clan, Dracula gives a non-answer, then chastises him for his failures, setting Margaret off on a pro-Apocalypse rant (including a mention of how he cut a pack of "N'Gari demons to pieces when [she] was a girl", which, given her age and two full-grown sons, doesn't sound compatible with Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, set 38 years earlier), which ends with Hamilton ripping her throat out. 

Apocalypse, Ozymandias, Van Helsing, Starsmore and Frederick Slade arrive in a Transylvanian village via Frederick's teleport and encounter a group of human loyalists to Dracula. Apocalypse is visibly weakened, but when VH comments on this - and the fact that the bite likely leads Dracula straight too them - Apocalypse prepares to kill him but is stopped by a bolt of lightning from Dracula himself, with the comment that, due to a personal vendetta, he reserves the right to kill VH for himself. Taunting Apocalypse, he sends rats, bats and wolves after them; leading Apocalypse to lose his temper and literally blow them all away. The misted Dracula then tells Apocalypse, annoyed at Dracula not facing him directly, that the last act will be at a time and place of his choosing, and to meet him at Castle Dracula. 

Upon seeing the undead army in their path, Apocalypse summons the Riders of the Dark (in this time period, all dressed as Wolverine-as-Death) for the first time in "centuries". While the Riders occupy the bulk of the army, Apocalypse fights his way in to be confronted by Dracula. 

Meanwhile, Frederick, VH, Ozymandias and Starsmore teleport into the castle, Starsmore complaining about "surviving an Apocalypse hurricane to throw [his] guts up on the Frederick Express." As they start to burn the castle down, Ozymandias notices Margaret Slade (surname confirmed for the first time)'s body lying on the floor, only to be literally thrown out the castle by Hamilton. He and Starsmore fight, with Hamilton the clear victor, and about to turn Starsmore to have him as his servant forever, when Frederick teleports his head off. 

In the garden, Apocalypse compliments Dracula for the trouble he caused him, before leaping at him - only to find himself stopped before he can touch Dracula. Dracula orders him to his knees, and says he intends to milk him for his blood, which has powered him up, forever. Before he can bite Apocalypse, though, Van Helsing splashes him with Holy Water, commenting what an error it was to stop Apocalypse killing him; and Apocalypse agrees, spiking the weakened Dracula, then severing his head. VH tells him to take the head away and burn... but is grabbed by Apocalypse for telling him what to do,... but then drops him and walks away, letting him live. Ozymandias speculates in the narration that it is because VH had saved his life. 

X-Men: Apocalypse/Dracula #4 (Epilogues) 

There are two Victorian-era epilogues. In the first, VH and Starsmore commiserate over the events, ending with VH saying he is going off to Canada to investigate rumours about the (unnamed) Wendigo. 

In the second, to ensure the Clan would continue at his service (unbeknownst to Apocalypse), Ozymandias puts a purple-skinned "Miss Ferguson" together with Frederick (clearly intended to beget Blink somewhere down the line, given that Frederick has pink hair, green eyes, and a similar teleport signature, complete with "BLINK!" sound effect). 


Notes 


All the main Victorian-era scenes from the start to the sunrise near the end of issue 3 take place over one night and morning. They then spend the daylight hours destroying Alexandria House. While it looks as if the main group teleports to Transylvania that night, no sign is given that Margaret Slade could teleport, so how she could get from London to Transylvania with Hamilton in one day isn't clear. The group goes their separate ways the next day. 

Only one of the two policemen from issue 1 is given even a surname (Hopkins). Neither is given a first name, so I haven't listed them. 

Kabir Brashir is given his first name in issue 2 and his surname while lying dead in issue 3, without the two names being given together. 

The recap page in issue 4 incorrectly gives Frederick's surname as "Ferguson", when this is, in fact, the surname of the purple woman he... lies with... at the end of the issue (she's not given a first name, so I haven't listed her. It's made abundantly clear that they're either Blink's grandparents or great-grandparents). New Excalibur #9 confirms that his surname is indeed Slade, like his brother and mother.


			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2006 08:28 am    
By Somebody

New Excalibur #9 


The book opens with a flashback to M-Day itself (overvoiced by someone asking Chamber questions and getting "Yeah" and "No" answers) as experienced by Weapon X; where the fighting is suddenly stopped by a flash of white as most or all of the combatants are depowered, and the Sentinels stop working. 

I make out Chamber, Agent Jackson, Mesmero (goes from green to caucasian), Wildchild (stays Nosterfau-like), and I'm presuming Madison Jefferies was there, directly puppeteering the Sentinels and depowered for them to stop working post-flash. Most of the others are generic, but there's a few who are identifiable, but I don't know them. (you can see the unlettered pages here if anyone wants to ID the Cannonball-like guy or anyone else) 

Chamber's WX chest implants explode when his powers turn off, leaving him as seen in Generation M - although the account of what happened to him is rather different. It's not clear in the slightest how he survived this - GenM1 attributes it to Beast getting to him quickly, but there's no way Beast (who was at the Mansion in HoM8) was there to save him, and he's left lying, absent "several fairly vital organs" in the middle of a battlefield. I don't expect this to be explained. 

Present Day 

England (specifics unclear). Day. 

In the present, Chamber's lying in a hospital bed in England, under an oxygen tent with various tubes going into what's left of his chest, using a handheld computer to give "yeah" and "no" responses to his therapist, a very old man who gives his name as "Hartley." As Hartley is telling Chamber that he was in a position "not unlike" Chamber's own once, and that he "has options," Pete Wisdom breezes in, annoys Hartley and goes back out for a smoke (claiming he's gone "three months cold turkey" to himself) after telling him to get lost. A nurse stops him from lighting the fag, and he tells her he "just needed something to relax me before I strangled that Dr. Hartley of yours." After she tells him they don't have a Doctor Hartley, he rushes back in to find him, and Chamber, gone. 

An unknown amount of time later - it may be the same day or some time later - Chamber wakes up with a complete face and chest, but red-eyed, grey skinned and with Apocalypse-like lips & a huge red tattoo on his chest, and with two tubes, one leading into each arm, pumping blood into him. 

"Hartley" apologises for just taking him, but since the "Horrible X-People" were about to make the effort of getting him transferred to that hospital and gaining his trust moot, he'd had to act. 

Chamber demands to know Why and How. "Hartley" says why is because he's "very special" - and reveals his "real" family, Clan Akkaba. As to how, they mixed his blood with Apocalypse's own, and despite the removal of his powers, it activated the power in his blood and used the metamorphic properties therein to heal him - the Apocalypse-like appearance is a side-effect. 

Chamber, eyes flashing, rips the pipes out of his arms, and says Clan Akkaba were killed over a century before (Re: Apoc/Dracula), and the only survivors were his "great-gramps" and "a veggie called Frederick Slade." Hartley blinks, and reveals his green eyes, saying he never did like being called that. When Chamber realises it is Frederick Slade, he goes "bloody hell". He says that his great-granddad insisted on every member of his family being "branded with your stupid tattoos" and he was almost happy when his chest "went Hiroshima" so he didn't have to look at the thing. He thanks them for the patch-up, but not the look, and asks them to show him the door when Apocalypse seemingly reveals himself and tells him his decision is an unfortunate one, but when Chamber tries to attack him with a candlestick he tells him he's free to go, but "Apocalypse takes care of his own." 

Outside, Excalibur belatedly arrive, and Chamber tells them not to bother going in, he barely knows any of them, so where do they get off "saving" him when he was peaceful enough in his bed, so sod off. 

Inside, "Apocalypse" reveals himself to be Ozymandias in an Apoc suit of armour, and in response to Frederick asking about when they'll finally meet Apocalypse again for real - not having seen him since the events of Apoc/Drac, and not knowing that Ozymandias had deliberately kept the continued existence of CA from him. Ozymandias says "soon", and they'll have Chamber to thank. 

In an epilogue, Wisdom has got a search warrant and a forensics crew, but the house was been stripped bare in the time between Chamber walking off and them getting the warrant and getting back. However, scans say that, outside, even if Chamber doesn't know it yet, the residual energy trace he left is off the scale. Wisdom has also sketched the CA tattoo from Chamber's chest, and plans to find out what it means, and that "it isn't over yet, not by a long shot".

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2006 08:49 am    
By Somebody

Chronological changes and additions, thusfore: 

Apocalypse and related characters 

APOCALYPSE/EN SABAH NUR 
[...] 
BK:E 
X:A/D 1-FB (1-8) 
C&P2 1 
[...] 
C@ '99-FB 
X:A/D1-FB (22) 
X:A/D2-FB 
X:A/D3-FB (3-11) 
X:A/D3-FB (1-2) 
X:A/D3-FB (17-21) 
X:A/D4-FB 
[...] 
CDP 27 
X:A/D 1 
X:A/D 2-BTS 
X:A/D 3-BTS 
X:A/D 4 
X 181 
[Blood of Apocalypse] 

OZYMANDIAS 
[...] 
ROA 4 ~ FF 19-BTS ~ DRSTR2 53-BTS ~ WCA2 22-BTS 
X:A/D 1-FB-BTS (1-8) 
X:A/D3-FB (14) 
X:A/D1-FB 
X:A/D2-FB 
X:A/D3-FB (3-11) 
X:A/D3-FB (1-2) 
X:A/D3-FB (13-21) 
X:A/D4-FB 
? GAM3 14 
[...] 
CDP 27 
X:A/D 1 
X:A/D 2-BTS 
X:A/D 3-BTS 
X:A/D 4 
X 181 
[Blood of Apocalypse] 
XCAL4 9 

WAR (next number) 
X:A/D 1-FB 

SLADE, HAMILTON 
X:A/D3-FB (15) 
X:A/D1-FB 
X:A/D2-FB 
X:A/D3-FB 
X:A/D4-FB 

SLADE, FREDERICK (see Notes under Apoc/Drac: Victorian era post about surname) 
X:A/D3-FB (14-15) 
X:A/D2-FB 
X:A/D3-FB (3-11) 
X:A/D3-FB (1-2) 
X:A/D3-FB (17) 
X:A/D4-FB 
XCAL4 9 

SLADE, MARGARET 
X:A/D2-FB 
X:A/D3-FB 
X:A/D4-FB 

STARSMORE, JACK 
X:A/D2-FB (9p4-5) 
X:A/D1-FB 
X:A/D2-FB 
X:A/D3-FB (3-11) 
X:A/D3-FB (1-2) 
X:A/D3-FB (16-21) 
X:A/D4-FB 

BRASHIR, KABAR 
X:A/D2-FB 
X:A/D3-FB (corpse) 

Dracula-related characters (dunno about surrounding appearances except where I've been enlightened by Sean): 

DRACULA/VLAD TEPES 
[...] 
DL 2 (3p3) 
X:A/D1-FB (1-8) 
DL 2 (3p4) 
[...] 
??? 
X:A/D1-FB 
X:A/D2-FB 
X:A/D3-FB 
X:A/D4-FB 
??? 
[...] 

VAN HELSING, ABRAHAM 
[...] 
??? 
X:A/D2-FB 
X:A/D3-FB (3-11) 
X:A/D3-FB (1-2) 
X:A/D3-FB (13-21) 
X:A/D4-FB 
??? 
[...] 


I expect the following WX characters, from the flashback, are last in the WX series itself, since WX:DOFN seems to be non-canon. 

CHAMBER/JONOTHON STARSMORE 
[...] 
XCAL4 9-FB 
GENM1 
XCAL4 9 

JACKSON, BRENT 
[...] 
XCAL4 9-FB 

MESMERO 
[...] 
XCAL4 9-FB 
XMU2 ?? 

WILD CHILD/KYLE GIBNEY 
[...] 
XCAL4 9-FB 

JEFFERIES, MADISON 
[...] 
XCAL4 9-FB-BTS 

[Again, see here for characters who might be identifiable, just not by me] 

All the following presumed last in New Excalibur #8 (XCAL4 8), but I don't have the issue to check: 

WISDOM, PETE 
[...] 
XCAL4 9 

DAZZLER II/ALISON BLAIRE 
[...] 
XCAL4 9 

CAPTAIN BRITAIN/BRIAN BRADDOCK 
[...] 
XCAL4 9 

NOCTURNE III/TALIA JOSEPHINE "T.J." WAGNER 
[...] 
XCAL4 9 

SAGE/"TESSA" 
[...] 
XCAL4 9 

JUGGERNAUT/CAIN MARKO 
[...] 
XCAL4 9

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 27 Jul 2006 02:35 pm    Post subject: Analysis of Star Masters LS
By DonCampbell

This is my analysis of the Star Masters limited series by the late, great Mark Gruenwald. Before I begin, there are several things that I'd like to point out. 

First, I've chosen to use STARMAS as the code for Star Masters. I based my choice on the fact that STARJAM is the code for the Starjammers title. Of course, this is totally non-binding if anyone else has a better code. 

Second, I'm not entirely sure as to how the LS fits into the chronology of events on Earth-616. Since it is mostly an outer space adventure, most of the characters either have no regular connection to earthly events or are linked only to other characters who don't often appear in Marvel comics. The only two connections I see are that A) the LS takes place after SS3 111 (although pages 2-3 of SS3 111 takes place between pages 15 and 19 of Star Masters #1); and B) the LS ends before events in Thor 492. Thus I welcome any help from those who are able to place the various cameo appearances of certain well-established Marvel characters. 

STARMAS 1 (Star Masters #1, cover-dated December, 1995) 
The Stars, My Desperation 
(writer) Mark Gruenwald, (penciler) Scot Eaton, (inker) Bob Almond 

Appearances: Aldebron, Ambassador DMelza, Astrogator Ghant, Beta Ray Bill, Captain Ramrog, CNS newscaster, Cosmic Commando Unit One (Captain Morfex, Fanto, Xenith + 5 unnamed others), Cloud, Epoch, Lilandra Neramani, Lord Odin, Peacekeeper-General Mduul, Quasar, Sidereus, Silver Surfer, Tana Nile, Lisa Vaughn, Vizier 

Non-speaking cameo appearances: Doctor Doom, Giant-Man (Henry Pym), Hugin & Munin (unnamed), Professor Charles Xavier, Vision 

Brief Synopsis: An alien purification vessel uses a giant meteor to wipe out all life on Arcturus IV, then sets course for its next target, Earth. Quasar is summoned back to Earth by his mother and finds the world is panicking because a giant We Come In Peace message has appeared in the sky. Tracking the messages point of origin leads Quasar to the Hub, the gigantic mobile headquarters of The Charter, the largest peace organization in the local galaxies, who have come to offer Earth membership. However, when Quasar awakens after a needed rest, he discovers that everyone on board the Hub except himself has died. The aliens who caused the deaths create a phony message in which Quasar claims responsibility for the massacre and the broadcast is seen throughout the Tri-Galaxy Area and even in Asgard. Cosmic Commando Unit One soon arrives to take Quasar into custody but he escapes after learning of the broadcast he supposedly made. Quasar immediately runs into the Silver Surfer and Beta Ray Bill just outside the Hub and convinces them of his innocence but the Surfer then announces that a planet-sized object is now on a collision course with Earth and the three heroes head off to save lives. 


References: 
On page 4, Quasar mentally mentions to himself that its been six months since hed exiled himself from Earth (in Quasar #60). 

The three main cosmic heroes all also appear in Silver Surfer III #111 wherein all three are targeted by three different Outrider probes. Beta Ray Bills almost-encounter with Outrider 101 (he thought he heard something) occurs on page 3 in a panel which occurs immediately after the end of page 15 of Star Masters #1. Quasars almost-encounter with Outrider 100 on page 4 (a faint buzz whizzed by his head) takes place sometime before he first appears in Star Masters #1. And the Silver Surfers successful interface with Outrider 111, his subsequent (several rotations later) entry into the cosmic swell and his expulsion from said unstable wormhole exactly 25 micro-spans later were depicted in SS3 #111, 112 and 114  all of which occur before he first appears in Star Masters #1. 

On page 21, the narrative reveals that the planetoid "will impact with Earth in under 5 hours." 


STARMAS 2 (Star Masters #2, cover-dated January, 1996) 
Earthfall 
Written by Mark Gruenwald, penciled by Scot Eaton, inked by Bob Almond 

Appearances: Aldebron, Beta Ray Bill, Black Widow, Peggy Carter, Central Command, Cosmic Commando Unit One (Captain Morfex, Stellung, Urg, Xenith + 4 others [Fanto]), Lord Votan, Bruce McCauley (ABC News correspondent, voice only), Quasar, Silver Surfer, Stenth, Gayle Vaughn, Lisa Vaughn, Vision 

Brief Synopsis: As people on Earth learn of the imminent collision, Quasar, Beta Ray Bill and the Silver Surfer try desperately to deflect the meteor but are hampered by the efforts of the Cosmic Commandos to capture Quasar. When Captain Morfex learns of the danger to Earth and tries to help, a subordinate ambushes him and pushes him out an airlock. Rescued by Quasar, Morfex manages to convince CC member Xenith that something is wrong. Despite Quasar and Beta Ray Bills best efforts, it is ultimately the Surfer who manages to stop the meteoroid (by reactivating the barrier that Galactus once put around Earth) but Quasar and Beta Ray Bill then have to act quickly to prevent the tiny black hole that was inside the meteor from hitting Earth. Once the danger has passed, Quasar, Beta Ray Bill, Silver Surfer, Morfex and Xenith all compare notes and decide to work together as the STAR MASTERS to discover who sent the meteoroid at Earth and who killed the delegates to The Charter, unaware that the same person is responsible for all of the days heinous deeds: Lord Votan. 

References: 
On page 2, Black Widow refers to that We come in peace message of 12 hours ago. 


STARMAS 3 (Star Masters #3, cover-dated February, 1996) 
Cauldron of Conversion 
Written by Mark Gruenwald, penciled by Scot Eaton, inked by Bob Almond 

Appearances: Andrex, Astrogator Ghant, Beta Ray Bill, Captain Morfex, Captain Ramrog, Cosmic Commando Unit One (Fanto, Kryad, Ruger, Stellung, Urg, Vort), Dampyre, Lord Votan, Quasar, 24 Recorders (including 403-405, 501-507, 901-E), Sidereus, Silver Surfer, Tana Nile, Throk, Trimeth (voice only), Xenith 

Brief Synopsis: As members of the Axi-Tun race purify Beta Ray Bills people, the Korbinites, the Star Masters defeat the rest of Cosmic Commando Unit One and then decide to look for those responsible for the mass murder of The Charter delegates. On Lord Votan's orders, the crew of the ship that failed to destroy Earth purify themselves by blowing up their ship. A Rigellian team led by Tana Nile arrives on The Hub to investigate the deaths but are soon captured by Axi-Tun warriors. The Star Masters are also overcome when they arrive. As the Axi-Tun are about to dispose of the Star Masters in the cauldron of purification, Beta Ray Bill tries to stop them by hurling his hammer at Sidereus but both he and his weapon suddenly disappear in a flash of lightning. The other four Star Masters are dumped into the cauldron but secretly survive because Quasar manages to protect them from its toxic contents and gets them out through the bottom of the cauldron without tipping off the Axi-Tun. As they recover, Quasar discovers that the gunk from the cauldron is ALIVE! 

"If you came with us this far, you won't want to miss the double-sized conclusion to this epic in the latest issue of COSMIC POWERS UNLIMITED. On sale in a few weeks!" 


References: 
According to page 2, the abduction and conversion of Korbinites has been going on for the past seven sun-cycles. This presumably means that the conversion of the Korbinites began some time before the massacre at the Hub. 

The time that elapses in this issue is at least a half-hour but I would guess that events in this issue take no more than two hours total. Adding the maximum elapsed times of 12, 5 and 2 hours from each issue gives a total of no more than 19 hours for the whole limited series. 

This story is continued in COSMIC POWERS UNLIMITED #4/1-5/1. 

There are no flashbacks in any issue of this limited series. 

SS3 122 establishes that events in SS3 121-122 take place about five weeks after SS3 111. 



The following characters have (so far) ONLY appeared in the Star Masters limited series: 
Cosmic Commando Unit One members Fanto, Kryad, Ruger, Stellung, Urg and Vort  all in STARMAS #1-3 
Andrex [Axi-Tun]  STARMAS #3 
DMelza [Nanda]  STARMAS #1 (dies) 
Ghant [Axi-Tun]  STARMAS #1 & 3 (dies) 
Mduul  STARMAS #1 (dies, corpse [called MDuul] next in CPU #4/1) 
Ramrog, Captain [Axi-Tun]  STARMAS #1 & 3 (dies) 
Stenth [Axi-Tun]  STARMAS #2 


The following well-established Marvel characters appear in the Star Masters limited series. The only thing I know about how this LS fits into their chronologies is that it must take place between Thor 491 & 492 (after TS 24/T 490 and before Avengers: Timeslide?). 

Black Widow II/Natasha Romanova  STARMAS #2 
Carter, Peggy  STARMAS #2 
Doctor Doom/Victor Von Doom  STARMAS #1 
Giant-Man/Henry Pym  STARMAS #1 
Hugin & Munin  STARMAS #1 (after T@ 19  assuming that actually WAS Hugin & Munin and not just two other ravens) 
Lilandra Neramani [ShiAr]  STARMAS #1 (before or after STARJAMMERS?) 
Professor X/Charles Xavier  STARMAS #1 
Vision II  STARMAS #1 & 2 


* denotes entries that are new or need to be moved. 


*ALDEBRON [AXI-TUN] 
*STARMAS 1 
*STARMAS 2 
*CPU 4/1 


BETA RAY BILL [KORBINITE] 
. . . . . 
T 489 
*STARMAS 1 
SS3 111 
*STARMAS 1 
*STARMAS 2 
*STARMAS 3  disappears (later revealed to have been transported to Asgard) 
T 492  in Asgard, collapses in a garden, later in a coma (with Sif and Odin) 
CPU 5/1-FB  revealed to have been transported back to Asgard where he collapsed into a coma, SS and Odin healed/changed him, SS and BRB left for the Hub 
CPU 4/1  returned to the Hub from from Asgard 
CPU 5/1 
*SS3 122-FB 
SS3 121 
SS3 122 


CLOUD 
. . . . . 
SOLOA 20/2 
*STARMAS 1 


DAMPYRE [AXI-TUN] 
*STARMAS 3 
CPU 4/1 

EPOCH  in STARMAS 1 (either between Q 53 and CM5 14-FB, or after CM5 14-FB) 


MORFEX [SKRULL] 
*STARMAS 1 
*STARMAS 2 
*STARMAS 3 
CPU 4/1 
CPU 5/1 


ODIN [ASGARDIAN] 
. . . . . 
TS 24/T 490  death of Thunderstrike 
T 491  appears before a dying Thor 
*STARMAS 1  in Asgard with Beta Ray Bill (and Vizier and Hugin and Munin) 
*SS3 111  in Asgard with Beta Ray Bill (and Heimdall and the Warriors Three) immediately after page 15 of STARMAS 1 
T 492  in Asgard with Sif and a comatose Beta Ray Bill (after STARMAS 3)  a full day after T 491 
CPU 5/1-FB  in Asgard with Beta Ray Bill and the Silver Surfer 
T 497  on Earth as an old man in the street (Wad) 

Note: Since Star Masters #1-3 occurs in less than one day and Thor 492 must fit in the very short time between the end of STARMAS 3 and page 20 of CPU 4/1, it follows that SS3 111 and T 492 must be placed as close together as possible. I suggest moving SS3 111 to between T 491 & T 492 (since a full day passes between those two issues) 


QUASAR III/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHN 
. . . . . 
Q 60 
SS3 111 
*STARMAS 1 
*STARMAS 2 
*STARMAS 3 
CPU 4/1 
CPU 5/2 
*SS3 122-FB 
SS3 121 
SS3 122 
A3 1 


SIDERIUS (should be SIDEREUS [AXI-TUN]) 
*STARMAS 1 
*STARMAS 3 
CPU 4/1 


SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
. . . . . 
SS3 111 
*SS3 112  entered cosmic swell 
*SS3 114  expelled from cosmic swell 
*STARMAS 1 
*STARMAS 2 
*STARMAS 3 
CPU 4/1 
CPU 5/1-FB 
CPU 4/1 
CPU 5/1 
SMTU 2 
FF 413 
*SS3 122-FB 
SS3 121 
SS3 122 

Note: It is IMPORTANT to realize that the Gleambody Silver Surfer who appeared in SS3 #112-121 is NOT THE SAME BEING as the real Silver Surfer who was part of the Star Masters team AT THE SAME TIME as the Gleambody Surfer was battling the Uni-Lord on the other side of the universe. As such, issues SS3 113 and SS3 115-120 should be removed from Norrin Radds chronology because the only Silver Surfer who appeared in those issues was (at best) a duplicate of him and not the original. However, since both Silver Surfers appear in SS3 112, 114 & 121, those issues should remain in Norrins listing. 


TANA NILE (RIGELLIAN) 
. . . . . 
T 221 
*STARMAS 1 
*STARMAS 3 
CPU 4/1 
CPU 5/1 
GENX 23 


THROK [AXI-TUN] 
*STARMAS 3 
CPU 4/1 (now called THROKK) 


VAUGHAN, GAYLE (should be spelt VAUGHN, GAYLE) 
Q 18 
Q 21 
Q 26-BTS 
Q 60 
*STARMAS 2 


VAUGHAN, LISA (should be spelt VAUGHN, LISA) 
Q 18 
Q 21 
Q 26 
Q 49 
Q 50 
Q 60 
*STARMAS 1 
*STARMAS 2 


VIZIER [ASGARDIAN] 
. . . . . 
TS 23 
T 490 
*STARMAS 1 
JIM 504 


VOTAN [AXI-TUN] 
*STARMAS 2 
*STARMAS 3 
CPU 4/1 
CPU 5/1 


XENITH [STRONTIAN] 
*STARMAS 1 
*STARMAS 2 
*STARMAS 3 
CPU 4/1 
CPU 5/1 


Wll, that's it. Comments? 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2006 01:52 pm    
By Arthur
Director

RE Peggy Carter: 

... 
TS 16 
CA 439 
A '99-FB 


Quote: 
>>>
this LS ... must take place ...after TS 24/T 490  
<<<

CA 439 is prior to TS 24 (Cap's chronology), so after CA 439. 


Quote: 
>>>
and before Avengers: Timeslide 
<<<

And the A'99-FB is post-Onslaught therefore after Avengers: Timeslide, so before A'99-FB: 

CARTER, PEGGY 
... 
TS 16 
CA 439 
*STARMAS 2 
A '99-FB

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 11 Aug 2006 03:21 am    Post subject: Storm v2 1-6
By Col_Fury

Storm v2 #1 
Appearances: 
Storm(Ororo Munroe), Black Panther(TChalla), David Munroe-FB, NDare Munroe-FB, DeRuyters brother, Teacher, various orphans, various poachers. 

Pg1-pg18pn1: Ororo age 12, now 
Ororo is dared to steal a camera,(from DeRuyters brother) so she does, but is chased. She and her friends get away. That night, the orphans throw a party. Off to the side, Ororo thinks to herself while looking at the camera. 
Pg18pn2-pg18pn4-FB: 
David takes a picture of NDare & Ororo in New York. Later that day, they put her to bed. 
Pg18pn5: now 
Ororo thinks some more. 
Pg18pn6(of 7)-pg22-FB: not long after pg18pn2-pg18pn4-FB 
David & NDare, while carrying Ororo, talk about & decide to move from New York to Africa. 
Pg23-pg32: now 
Ororo is approached by Teacher, who brings her back to the camp. TChalla is seen in the jungle as the group looking for Ororo nears the camp. 

References: 
Ororo has already left El Gibar, and is traveling Africa. She has temporarily hooked up with this particular group of orphans. Ororo is noted as being 12 years old, is aware of her powers, but does not have full control over them yet. 

All in one night, with the exception of the FlashBacks. 

Storm v2 #2 
Appearances: 
Storm(Ororo Munroe), Black Panther(TChalla), David Munroe-FB, NDare Munroe-FB, DeRuyters brother, Teacher, various orphans, various poachers. 

Pg1-pg4-FB 
David comes home & the family has dinner, just before their house is blown up by a crashing plane. 
Pg5-FB 
Repeat of the plane crash seen in UX 102-FB 
Pg6-FB 
Ororo crawls out of wreckage of house. 
Pg7-pg8-FB 
Ororo already out of the wreckage, goes to the bodies of her parents, cries again. 
Pg9-pg25: same night as last issue 
DeRuyters group attacks the camp, Ororo is tranquilized, and TChalla rescues her from being captured. 

References: 
Same night as last issue, all in one night, with the exception of the FlashBacks. 

Storm v2 #3 
Appearances: 
Storm(Ororo Munroe), Black Panther(TChalla), DeRuyter the Bull, DeRuyters brother, Teacher, various orphans, various poachers. 

Pg1-pg7: same night as last issue 
TChalla brings the unconscious Ororo back to Teachers camp. TChalla chats with teacher and decides to stay with Ororo. 
Pg8-pg22: next day 
DeRuyter calls his brother the Bull. Ororo wakes up and already knows TChallas name. That night a dinner is held in TChallas honor. 

References: 
Ororo already knows TChallas name when she wakes up, making me think shes already met him. 

The Bull is very excited by the sighting of a wind rider, and he no longer works for the government, making me think hes already encountered a wind-rider, and that hes been let go from government work because he messed up an earlier assignment, both of which happened in Marvel Team-Up 100/2-FB. 

Storm v2 #4 
Appearances: 
Storm(Ororo Munroe), Black Panther(TChalla), DeRuyter the Bull, DeRuyters brother, Teacher, various orphans, various poachers. 

Pg1-pg23: the day after last issue 
Ororo & TChalla go out on a date. Meanwhile, the DeRuyters attack Teachers camp and Teacher is killed. 

References: 
Ororo & TChalla GET IT ON. 

Storm v2 #5 
Appearances: 
Storm(Ororo Munroe), Black Panther(TChalla), DeRuyter the Bull, DeRuyters brother, TChaka-FB, Teacher, various orphans, various poachers. 

Pg1-pg14pn4: day after last issue 
The DeRuyters look for Ororo at the camp and reveal their plan to capture her with a Vibranium coffin. Meanwhile, Ororo & TChalla wake up. Theyre attacked and Ororo is captured. 
Pg14pn5-pg14pn6(of 6): FB 
TChaka kicks the Bull out of Wakanda as a young TChalla watches. 
Pg15-pg23: same day 
TChalla fights the Bull, but theyre interrupted by the Bulls brother. 

References: 
Theres a one panel FlashBack to Ororos dead parents, but it repeats what we already saw in issue 2. 

The FlashBack of TChaka kicking the Bull out of Wakanda shows a young TChalla about eight or so. This should precede the JA-FB where hes ten. 

Storm v2 #5 
Appearances: 
Storm(Ororo Munroe), Black Panther(TChalla), DeRuyter the Bull, DeRuyters brother, various orphans, various poachers. 

Pg1-pg25:same day as last issue 
The Bull kills his brother, Ororo & TChalla escape, and the Bull is paralyzed. 
Pg26-pg27: a day or so later 
Ororo & TChalla hit the town. 

References: 
The end! 

Heres the FlashBack from Marvel Team-Up #100/2: 

Marvel Team-Up #100/2-FB 
Pg3pn2-pg3pn3 
A young Ororo is traveling Africa, she recently discovered her powers. 
Pg3pn4 
She comes across a young adult TChalla, fighting a gang of white guys in safari outfits. 
Pg3pn5 
Ororo flies(for the first time) to help out. 
Pg4-pg5pn2 
She meets TChalla & the both of them fight DeRuyter. 
Pg5pn3 
Ororo & TChalla fly off together. 

References: 
As they fly off, the narration says: They traveled together for a time TChallas duty took him back to Wakanda. However, it doesnt specify if they parted and met back up 

And heres the FlashBack from Black Panther v3 #26: 

Black Panther v3 #26-FB 
Pg3 
A young Ororo & TChalla say goodbye to each other. 

References: 
An editors note points us to Marvel Team-Up #100. 

Ororo & TChalla met for the first time in Marvel team-Up 100/2, and thats how she knew his name in this mini.(well, the kids were chanting his name, but still...) Its not said anywhere in these six issues that this is where they meet for the first time, so the only place I can see where this would fit is after M/TU 100/2-FB, after they part ways in Uncanny Origins 9, and before they say goodbye to each other in BBP3 26-FB. 

With that in mind, here are some chronology placement suggestions: 

DeRuyter, Angus 'the Bull' 
STORM2 5-FB 
{M/TU 100/2-FB} 
STORM2 3 
STORM2 4 
STORM2 5 
STORM2 6 

MUNROE, DAVID 
UO 9 
*STORM2 1-FB pg18pn2-pg18pn4 
*STORM2 1-FB pg18pn6-pg22 
UX 102-FB 
UX 265-FB 
*STORM2 2-FB pg1-pg4 
UO 9 
UX 102-FB 
*STORM2 2-FB pg7-pg8 
XX 18 


MUNROE, N'DARE 
UO 9 
*STORM2 1-FB pg18pn2-pg18pn4 
*STORM2 1-FB pg18pn6-pg22 
UX 102-FB 
UX 265-FB 
UX 96-FB 
*STORM2 2-FB pg1-pg4 
UO 9 
UX 102-FB 
UX 96-FB 
*STORM2 2-FB pg7-pg8 
XX 18 

STORM/ORORO MUNROE 
UO 9 pg1-pg2: Ororo is born 
*STORM2 1-FB pg18pn2-pg18pn4 
*STORM2 1-FB pg18pn6-pg22 
UX 102-FBpg6pn6-pg7pn3: leaving New York 
UX 265-FB: playing in Cairo 
UX 96-FB pg17pn2: in Cairo 
*STORM2 2-FB pg1-pg4 
UO 9 pg3: just before plane crash 
UX 102-FB pg7pn4-pg8pn6: plane crash 
UX 96-FB pg17pn4: in wreckage 
UX 102-FB pg8pn7-pg8pn9: wakes up, finds parents in wreckage 
XU 7-FB pg30pn5-pg30pn6: cries over parents bodies in wreckage 
UO 9 pg5: starts to crawl out of wreckage 
*STORM2 2-FB pg6: gets out of wreckage 
UX 102-FB pg9pn1: just out of wreckage 
*STORM2 2-FB pg7-pg8: finds parents outside 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
UO 9 [p6pn1-3] 
UX 102-FB [p9pn2-3] 
UO 9 [p6pn4-6] 
XU 7-FB (her very early days) 
UX 117-FB (basic pickpocketing, but she's good at it) 
UO 9 [p7] (She's been at it for years and she's the top thief by now) 
X 60-FB (experienced, but "years" before she leaves Cairo) 
ORORO 1 
ORORO 2 
ORORO 3 
ORORO 4 
UX 113-FB [p6pn5] 
UX 113-FB [p6pn7] (keeping them together - plus, she looks older by now, and she's doing extremely advanced training by this point) 
STORM 2-FB (basic pickpocketing, but she looks much older than in most Cairo flashbacks) 
UO 9 [p10] 
<<<

UX 267-FB 
UX 102-FB pg9pn4-pg9pn6: leaves El Gibar to travel Africa 
UO 9 pg11-pg13: travels, becomes aware of powers 
UX 226-FB: calls to the Goddess 
M/TU 100/2-FB: meets TChalla 
UO 9 pg16: campfire w/ TChalla, part ways 
*STORM2 1 
*STORM2 2 
*STORM2 3 
*STORM2 4 
*STORM2 5 
*STORM2 6 
BP3 26-FB: Ororo & TChalla say goodbye 
 

Thanks to Paul O. for the modified quote above from this topic. 

TChaka/Black Panther 
 
M/CP 37/2-FB 
*STORM2 5-FB 
JA 15-FB 
 

Black Panther/TChalla 
 
BP3 10-FB pg7pn4-pg7pn5 
*STORM2 5-FB 
JA 15-FB 
 
 
M/TU 100/2-FB 
*UO 9 
*STORM2 1 
*STORM2 2 
*STORM2 3 
*STORM2 4 
*STORM2 5 
*STORM2 6 
BP3 26-FB 
 

Hey TChalla was in Uncanny Origins 9!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 09 Aug 2006 03:14 am    Post subject: Calendar; Punisher MAX 25-30
By Col_Fury

Punisher #25 
the Slavers pt1 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: November, 2005 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Viorica, Antony Pavla, Russ Parker, Marcie Miller, Cristu Bulat, Vera Konstantin, Stu Westin, Tom Price. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: around 11:30PM, give or take 
Punisher is going to kill Antony Pavla, but Viorica shoots Antony first, wounding him, and his men chase her. Punisher finishes Antony off. 
Pg4-pg6: Meanwhile 
Officers Parker & Miller argue in their squad car when they receive a call for shots fired. They respond. 
Pg7-pg12: around 11:30PM, give or take 
Punisher follows Viorica into an alley and kills the men chasing her. She asks for his help in stopping the people who killed her baby when Parker & Miller show up. Punisher disarms them without harming them, and leaves with Viorica. 
Pg13-pg14: most likely after midnight; next day 
Cristu & Vera discuss Antonys death, and the possible ramifications of Punisher finding out about their operation. 
Pg15: Police headquarters 
Stu Westin receives a phone call from Cristu. 
Pg16-pg17: Meanwhile, at Punishers place 
Punisher returns home with Viorica, who has passed out and begins to have nightmares. 
Pg18-pg20: Meanwhile, at Police headquarters 
Stu approaches Captain Tom Price about a plan he has to take down the Punisher. 
Pg21-pg22: Meanwhile, at Punishers place 
Viorica begins to tell the Punisher her story 

References: 
The 11:30PM time will be given next issue at the press conference. 

Stu mentions on his phone call with Cristu that Nicky Cavellas body was found two weeks ago. Nicky was left for dead at the end of issue 24, but he wasnt dead yet. Enough time had passed from when he finally died for birds to have eaten out his eyes. So theres been at least three weeks between Punisher 24 & 25. 

In the narration, its said that the night Punisher came into contact with Viorica was pitch black. Im taking this to mean this night(pg1-pg12) has a new moon. Its also raining throughout the issue, and people are wearing coats and jackets. 

Also in the narration, Punisher mentions that 'all of this' began a year ago. I'm taking this to mean that Viorica was put into Cristu's operation a year ago. 

Pg1-pg12: one night 
Pg13-pg22: the next day 

Punisher #26 
the Slavers pt2 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: December, 2005 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Viorica, Anna-FB, Russ Parker, Marcie Miller, Cristu Bulat, Tiberiu Bulat, Vera Konstantin -BTS & -FB, Stu Westin, Tom Price, Ernie Mosstow, Jen Cooke-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: same day as last issue, Punishers place 
Viorica continues her story, and Punisher finds out about the slave/prostitution market like Cristu was afraid of. 
Pg4-pg7: Meanwhile 
Cristus dad(Tiberiu) kills some drug dealers, and Cristu calls Vera to tell her that hes thinking about killing his dad. 
Pg8-pg9pn2: Meanwhile, at Punishers place 
Viorica tells Punisher about Cristu and his dad. 
Pg9pn3: FB, sometime within the last year 
Viorica is allowed to visit her daughter, Anna. 
Pg9pn4-pg9pn6(of 6): Punishers place 
Viorica thanks the Punisher for killing Antony. 
Pg10pn1: FB, sometime within the last year 
Vera & Cristu inspect their slave/whores. No Viorica present. 
Pg10pn2-pg10pn4: Punishers place 
Viorica tells Punisher about Vera, then about how a girl escaped last week. She got a message to the others about a social worker who would help. 
Pg10pn5: FB(of 5), yesterday 
Viorica escapes with Anna. 
Pg11pn1-pg11pn3: Punishers place 
Viorica tells the Punisher about how stupid the social worker is. 
Pg11pn4(of 4)-pg12pn1: FB, yesterday 
Viorica and Jen Cooke, the social worker, receive an e-mail from Vera, with a picture of Annas dead body. 
Pg21pn2-pg12pn5(of 5): Punishers place 
Viorica finishes her story. 
Pg13-pg15: Police headquarters 
Stu has Parker and Miller put on fake casts and bandages for Captain Prices press conference. At the press conference, its announced that the police will begin actively hunting the Punisher. 
Pg16-pg22: that night 
Punisher finds out where the house that Viorica was being kept at is, then stakes it out. He starts his plan to get into the place, but hes interrupted by the police. He escapes, but the officer chasing him(Mosstow) injures himself. 

References: 
All in one day, same day as last issues pg22, with the exception of the FlashBacks. 

The sometime within the last year FlashBacks dont give us much to go on. Pg9pn3 shows a man wearing a heavy jacket, so its probably cold weather outside. Pg10pn1 is indoors, and gives no clues as to what time of year it is. 

Cristu talks to Vera on the phone, but shes not seen or heard, giving her a BTS. 

People are still dressed for cold weather, but there are leaves on trees. Its night out, so the color isnt noticeable. 

Punisher #27 
the Slavers pt3 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: January, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Viorica, Russ Parker, Marcie Miller, Ernie Mosstow, Cristu Bulat, Tiberiu Bulat, Vera Konstantin -BTS, Stu Westin, Tom Price, Jen Cooke. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: one night 
Punisher interrogates a pimp. 
Pg3-pg4: same night? 
Cristu & dad watch the news, then argue about what to do about the Punisher. Cristu leaves and calls Vera. 
Pg5-pg6: same night? 
Parker & Miller meet Mosstow in a bar, and talk about how the Punisher is being set up. 
Pg7: police headquarters, same night? 
Westin & Price talk about the Punisher. 
Pg8: a motel, same night? 
Punisher asks Viorica what the social workers name is. 
Pg9-pg12: next day 
Jen Cooke holds a lecture, and is approached by the Punisher afterwards. 
Pg13-pg15: Meanwhile, at Police headquarters 
Parker & Miller are harassed, and a fight breaks out. 
Pg16-pg19: Meanwhile, at Jens place 
Punisher gets the information that Jen has acquired on Cristus operation. Later at his place, he starts to go over it. 
Pg20: FB, two years ago 
Tiberiu & Cristu wipe out a village, and take the girls with them. 
Pg21: Punishers place, same night 
Punisher finishes reading up on Cristu. 
Pg22: Jens place, same night 
Jen throws up in the toilet, because she feels bad for helping out the Punisher. 

References: 
In the narration, Punisher mentions that he killed two pimps and crippled four others that winter in looking for leads on Cristus operation. 

The news on pg3 says that the officer(Mosstow) who injured himself happened one week ago, meaning seven days, not just last week. 

The news also says that Nickys body was found not long after the night of carnage. That same news segment places the last arc in the summer, and were into winter now, so Nicky was laying out there for a while before he was found. Not long after can mean a few months, depending on what youre comparing it too 

Cristu talks to Vera on the phone, but shes not seen or heard, giving her a BTS. 

Yes, this is the same Jen Cooke thats appeared earlier in the series. Ennis likes re-using his characters 

Pg20 is about two years ago 
Pg1-pg8 are one night, one week after last issues pg22 
Pg9-pg19, pg21-pg22 are the next day 

Punisher #28 
the Slavers pt4 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: February, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Russ Parker, Marcie Miller, Cristu Bulat, Tiberiu Bulat, Vera Konstantin, Jen Cooke. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: same day as last issues pg22, 5:25PM 
Punisher reads up on human anatomy 
Pg2-pg6: next day, 3:15AM 
Tiberiu is attacked by drug dealers looking for revenge in his home, but he kills them all. 
Pg7: same day 
Parker & Miller talk about their injuries sustained in last issues fight. 
Pg8: same day 
Punisher drives to where he thinks Cristus new operation is. 
Pg9-pg18:same day, Cristus place 
Vera & Cristu talk on the phone about how Tiberiu was attacked this morning. Later, Punisher watches the operations and guard schedules of Cristus operation. Later at dinnertime, Punisher drugs the food and kills all the guards. He calls Jen to pick up the girls. She shows up to get them, and Punisher prepares to interrogate Cristu. 
Pg19: after midnight, next day 
Jen arrives back in town, and is approached by Parker & Miller. 
Pg20-pg22: same day, Cristus place 
Punisher has drugged and disemboweled Cristu, and begins to interrogate him. 

References: 
On pg4, Tiberiu mentions that he killed a drug dealer the other day, which was issue 26, pg4-pg7. 

Pg1 is the same day as last issues pg22 
Pg2-pg18 are the next day 
Pg19-pg22 are the day after that 

Punisher #29 
the Slavers pt5 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: March, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Russ Parker, Marcie Miller, Ernie Mosstow-FB, Cristu Bulat-FB, Tiberiu Bulat, Vera Konstantin, Stu Westin, Jen Cooke. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: Cristus place, same day as last issues pg22 
Tiberiu shows up at Cristus place at the Punisher attacks. After a firefight, the Punisher escapes. 
Pg7-pg8: Jens place, same day 
Jen receives a phone call from the Punisher leaving Cristus place, officers Parker & Miller are with Jen. They set up a meeting with the Punisher. 
Pg9-pg10: Veras place, same day 
Tiberiu pays Vera a visit. 
Pg11-pg13pn1: a diner, that night 
Punisher meets Jen, and isnt surprised to see Parker & Miller there too. 
Pg13pn2: FB, same day as issue 28 pg7 
Miller gives Mosstow a bloody nose, when she and Parker(not pictured but present) pay him a visit. 
Pg13pn3(of 5)-pg15: a diner, same night 
During their conversation, its discovered that Westin is working for Cristu & Vera. 
Pg16: Police headquarters, next day 
Westin receives a call from Vera, and then is told about Mosstows condition. 
Pg17-pg19pn4: Veras place, same day 
Punisher interrogates Vera about Stu Westin & where to find Tiberiu. 
Pg19pn5(of 5)-pg20pn1: FB, shortly after issue 27-FB, pg20 
Cristu & Vera watch as the girls he kidnapped are beaten and raped. 
Pg20pn2-pg22: Veras place, same day 
Punisher kills Vera. 

References: 
Pg19pn5-pg20pn1 are a little less than two years ago 
Pg13pn2 is the same day as issue 28 pg7 
Pg1-pg13pn1, pg13pn3-pg15 are the same day as last issues pg22 
Pg16-pg19pn4, pg20pn2-pg22 are the next day 

Punisher #30 
the Slavers pt6 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: April, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Viorica, Russ Parker, Marcie Miller, Tiberiu Bulat, Stu Westin, Jen Cooke. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: a motel, three days after last issues pg22 
Punisher visits Viorica. 
Pg2-pg3: same night 
Parker & Miller wait for a phone call from the Punisher. 
Pg4-pg10: Tiberius new operation, same night 
Punisher attacks the new operation, kills all of the guards, and kidnaps Tiberiu. He gives the girls a phone number to call. 
Pg11-pg13: a motel 
Miller visits Jen at a motel. They talk about the Punisher, and Jen receives a call from the girls Punisher just freed. 
Pg14-pg19: same night 
Punisher meets with Westin, and makes a deal to get the girls visas so they can stay in the states. He sets fire to Tiberiu(whos awake) and records it, so that Westin can deliver a videotaped message to Cristus European end of the operation. 
Pg20pn1-pg20pn2: JFK international airport, two days later 
Punisher watches Westin board his plane. That night, Punisher sends Parker the file on Westin. 
Pg20pn3: one day 
Punisher kills a slave trafficker. 
Pg20pn4(of 4)-pg21pn1: one day 
Miller has quit the force, and now works with Cooke. 
Pg21pn2(of4)-pg22: one day 
Viorica works as a waitress, sees a small child, and breaks down crying. 

References: 
There is snow on the ground on pg22. 

Pg1-pg19 is three days after last issues pg22 
Pg20pn1-pg20pn2: two days later 
Pg20pn3: one day, still winter 
Pg20pn4-pg21pn1: one day 
Pg21pn2-pg22: one day, still winter 

Heres the overall timeline of the arc: 

PUN 27-FB pg20: about two years ago 
* 
PUN 29-FB pg19pn5-pg20pn1: a little less than two years ago 
* 
PUN 26-FB pg9pn3: one day, sometime in the last year 
* 
PUN 26-FB pg10pn1: one day, sometime in the last year 
* 
PUN 26-FB pg10pn5: same day as PUN 25 pg1-pg12 
PUN 26-FB pg11pn4-pg12pn1: same day as PUN 26-FB pg10pn5 
PUN 25 pg1-pg12: one night 
* 
PUN 25 pg13-pg22: the next day 
PUN 26 pg1-pg9pn2, pg9pn4-pg9pn6, pg10pn2-pg11pn3, pg12pn2-pg22: same day as PUN 25 pg13-pg22 
* 
PUN 27 pg1-pg8: one night, one week after PUN 26 pg12pn2-pg22, winter 
* 
PUN 27 pg9-pg19, pg21-pg22: the next day 
PUN 28 pg1: the same day as PUN 27 pg21-pg22 
* 
PUN 28 pg2-pg18: the next day 
PUN 29 pg13pn2: the same day as PUN 28 pg7 
* 
PUN 28 pg19-pg22: the next day 
PUN 29 pg1-pg13pn1, pg13pn3-pg15: the same day as PUN 28 pg19-pg22 
* 
PUN 29 pg16-pg19pn4, pg20pn2-pg22: the next day 
* 
PUN 30 pg1-pg19: three days after PUN 29 pg20pn2-pg22 
* 
PUN 30 pg20pn1-pg20pn2: two days later 
* 
PUN 30 pg20pn3: one day, still winter 
* 
PUN 30 pg20pn4-pg21pn1: one day 
* 
PUN 30 pg21pn2-pg22: one day, still winter 

And thats it!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2006 06:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Col_Fury. Actually, a winter setting works for PUN7 25-30 if it's "not long" after PUN7 24, which I placed in late fall.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 13 Aug 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Calendar; Punisher MAX 31-36
By Col_Fury

Punisher #31 
Barracuda pt1 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Published: May, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Si Stephens, Harry Ebbing, Dermot Leary, Alice Ebbing, Billy LaCarda, Barracuda. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: the near future 
Punisher watches as sharks eat people. 
Pg5-pg14pn1: now 
Punisher kills some drug dealers, destroys their cocaine, and meets Stephens as the police arrive. Punisher leaves as Stephens begs him not to leave him with the cops. Meanwhile across town, Dermot informs Harry of the problem involving Stephens. Later that night in a diner, Punisher watches the news which is talking about his hit earlier, and recognizes Billy LaCarda in the background. He decides to head over to the police station. 
Pg14pn2: FB 
Officer Billy LaCarda is seen on a newspaper from 1999(or 7 years ago), showing his mob-related scandal. 
Pg14pn3: FB 
Repeat of pg8pn3. 
Pg14pn4(of 5)-pg22 now 
Punisher gets into the police station with a fake badge, stops LaCarda from killing Stephens, and they leave. Harry is informed that the hit was a failure, so he calls Barracuda. 

References: 
The news mentions the police initiative started last arc against the Punisher, and Punisher mentions that story was not long ago. The press is still talking about it, but the police arent really feeling up to the whole initiative now that the guy behind it is gone. Its also still winter in New York and people are dressed for cold weather, putting this arc one to three weeks after the end of the previous, give or take. 

The first 4 pages happen in issue 36 between pages. This is a bookend sequence, so should the rest of the issue be labeled as a FlashBack? Or are the pages just shown to us out of sequence? If this issue(aside from pg1-pg4) are a FlashBack, then so should issues 32 through the most if 36 right? 

Not shown: one week ago Stephens threatened to rat out Harrys business plans and ran out. 

Pg14pn2: about seven years ago 
Pg1-pg4: near future 
Pg5-pg14pn1, pg14pn4-pg22: one day 

Punisher #32 
Barracuda pt2 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Published: June, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Si Stephens, Harry Ebbing, Dermot Leary, Alice Ebbing, Barracuda. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: Day after last issue 
Barracuda kills a snake on his boat while his girlfriend dies from a drug overdose. He throws her body overboard and sails away. 
Pg4-pgpg5pn1: New York, same day 
Punisher & Stephens eat breakfast. 
Pg5pn2: FB about three years ago, early in that year(Jan or Feb) 
Harry Ebbing takes over Dynaco. 
Pg5pn3: now 
Stephens tells Punisher about Harry. 
Pg5pn4(of 4): FB a short time after pg5pn2-FB 
Harry holds a dinner with the staff of Dynaco. 
Pg6pn1: FB less than six months after pg5pn4-FB 
Dynaco is on the cover of Time, and that night the Dynaco staff goes to a strip club and does cocaine. 
Pg6pn2(of 4)-pg9pn3: now 
Stephens continues his story. Meanwhile, Harry takes the Dynaco staff skiing. Stephens fills Punisher in on Dermot. 
Pg9pn4: FB one week ago(from yesterday) 
Dermot gives Harry his current plan. 
Pg9pn5(of 5)-pg: now 
Stephens continues his story. 
Pg10pn1-pg10pn2: FB same day as pg9pn4-FB 
Dermot lays out his plan. 
Pg10pn3-pg10pn4: now 
Stephens continues his story. 
Pg10pn5(of 5): FB same day as pgpg10pn1-pg10pn2-FB 
Stephens objects to Dermots plan. 
Pg11pn1: FB day after pg10pn5-FB 
Stephens is attacked by drug dealers. 
Pg11pn2-pg11pn3: now 
Stephens continues his story. 
Pg11pn4(of 4): FB same day as pg11pn1-FB 
Harry starts to put Dermots plan into motion. 
Pg12-pg22: now 
Dermot has sex with Harrys wife, Alice, at the ski party. Meanwhile, Barracuda takes care of some business in Florida. Meanwhile, Punisher decides to go to Florida to deal with Dynaco at their shareholder meeting, goes to the airport, and gets on a plane. 

References: 
Theres snow on the ground in New York. 

The 'one week ago' FlashBacks are what was referred to last issue. 

In case anyone's interested, the plan is to systematically black out parts of Florida so people have to pay higher electric bills. Dynaco is an energy company. 

Pg5pn2-FB: about three years ago 
Pg5pn4-FB: maybe a week after pg5pn2-FB 
Pg6pn1-FB: less than 6 months after pg5pn2-FB 
Pg9pn4-FB: one week before last issue 
Pg10pn1-pg10pn2-FB: same day as pg9pn4-FB 
Pg10pn5-FB: same day as pg10pn1-pg10pn2-FB 
Pg11pn1-FB: day after pg10pn5-FB 
Pg11pn4-FB: same day as pg11pn1-FB 
Pg1-pg5pn1: day after last issue 
pg5pn3: same day as pg1-pg5pn1 
Pg6pn2-pg9pn3, pg9pn5, pg10pn3-pg10pn4, pg11pn2-pg11pn3: same day as pg5pn3 
Pg12-pg22: same day as pg11pn2-pg11pn3 

Punisher #33 
Barracuda pt3 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Published: July, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Si Stephens, Harry Ebbing, Dermot Leary, Alice Ebbing, Barracuda. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: same day as last issue 
Punisher arrives in Florida, and is attacked by Barracuda. 
Pg5-pg22: next day 
Dermot meets Alice. Meanwhile, Punisher wakes up in Barracudas trunk, tries to escape, and they fight. Barracuda loses an eye and four fingers. Meanwhile, Alice & Dermot plot against Harry. Meanwhile, Punisher and Barracuda fight. Later, Dermot & Harry talk to the recently arrived Stephens. Meanwhile, Barracuda takes Punisher out in his boat and throws him into shark infested waters. 

References: 
Pg1-pg4: same day as last issue 
Pg5-pg22: next day 

Punisher #34 
Barracuda pt4 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Published: August, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Si Stephens, Harry Ebbing, Dermot Leary, Alice Ebbing, Barracuda. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg19: same day as last issue 
Punisher fights a shark! Meanwhile, Harry, Dermot, & Stephens chat. Punisher fools the shark and secretly hitches a ride back to land on Barracudas boat. That night, Barracuda meets with Harry, Dermot, & Stephens. Later still, Punisher passes out in Barracudas front yard. 
Pg20-pg22: next day 
Dermot & Alice have sex in the hot tub while Barracuda watches. 

References: 
Stephens called ahead to let Harry know that Punisher was coming to Florida, in case anyone was interested. 

Pg1-pg19: same day as last issue 
Pg20-pg22: day after pg1-pg19 

Punisher #35 
Barracuda pt5 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Published: September, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Si Stephens, Harry Ebbing, Dermot Leary, Alice Ebbing, Barracuda. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as last issue end 
Barracuda lets Dermot & Alice know hes there. Meanwhile, Punisher wakes up. Alice & Dermot make Barracuda an offer in their plan against Harry. Meanwhile, Punisher patches himself up and prepares for his assault on Dynaco. Later that day, Barracuda meets with Harry while Punisher watches, and he decides to attack the entire corporation. Meanwhile, Alice & Dermot are having sex when Stephens walks in. Dermot kills him, and they call Barracuda to clean it up. Later at 4:00PM, the Dynaco shareholders meeting begins on Harrys boat. Punisher puts himself into position, and Alices & Dermots plan begins as the press arrive at Harrys building 

References: 
All in one day. 

Punisher #36 
Barracuda pt6 of 6 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Published: October, 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Harry Ebbing, Dermot Leary, Alice Ebbing, Barracuda. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as last issue 
Harrys plan has been leaked to the press and Harry flees by helicopter from the reporters. The news makes it to television live, and the Dynaco shareholders find out about it. Alice gives Barracuda a blow job to distract him when Dermot attacks with a pipe wrench from behind. They throw him overboard and have sex. Harry calls and Alice reveals shes been cheating on him, so he commits suicide by jumping out of the helicopter. When Alice & Dermot finish, Dermot calms down the shareholders, but the Punisher attacks! He blows up the boat and everyone is eaten by sharks. 

References: 
The scene shown in issue 31 fits nicely between pg21 & pg22. 

All in one day. 

Overall, heres the breakdown: 

PUN 31 Pg14pn2: about seven years before PUN 31 
* 
PUN 32 Pg5pn2-FB: about three years before PUN 32 
* 
PUN 32 Pg5pn4-FB: maybe a week after PUN 32 pg5pn2-FB 
* 
PUN 32 Pg6pn1-FB: less than 6 months after PUN 32 pg5pn2-FB 
* 
PUN 32 Pg9pn4-FB: one week before PUN 31 pg5-pg14pn1, pg14pn2-pg22 
PUN 32 Pg10pn1-pg10pn2-FB: same day as PUN 32 pg9pn4-FB 
PUN 32 Pg10pn5-FB: same day as PUN 32 pg10pn1-pg10pn2-FB 
* 
PUN 32 Pg11pn1-FB: day after PUN 32 pg10pn5-FB 
PUN 32 Pg11pn4-FB: same day as PUN 32 pg11pn1-FB 
* 
PUN 31 Pg5-pg14pn1, pg14pn4-pg22: one day 
* 
PUN 32 Pg1-pg5pn1: day after PUN 31 
PUN 32 pg5pn3: same day as PUN 32 pg1-pg5pn1 
PUN 32 Pg6pn2-pg9pn3, pg9pn5, pg10pn3-pg10pn4, pg11pn2-pg11pn3: same day as PUN 32 pg5pn3 
PUN 32 Pg12-pg22: same day as PUN 32 pg11pn2-pg11pn3 
PUN 33 Pg1-pg4: same day as last issue 
* 
PUN 33 Pg5-pg22: day after PUN 33 pg1-pg4 
PUN 34 Pg1-pg19: same day as PUN 33 pg5-pg22 
* 
PUN 34 Pg20-pg22: day after pg1-pg19 
PUN 35: same day as PUN 34 pg20-pg22 
PUN 36 pg1-pg21: same day as PUN 35 
PUN 31 Pg1-pg4: same day as PUN 36 pg1-pg21 
PUN 36 pg22: same day as PUN 31 pg1-pg4
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Aug 2006 07:46 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Col. Shall I put you down for issues #37-39? 

_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Aug 2006 02:27 pm    
By Col_Fury

I can do 37-39. Go ahead and put me down for it. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2006 06:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Will do. Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 09 Aug 2006 09:39 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man Family: Amazing Friends
By lkseitz

Spider-Man Family Featuring Spider-Man's Amazing Friends #1, Oct 2006 (title according to the indica) 

Story #1 - "Opposites Attack!" 
Writer: Sean McKeever 
Arists: A bunch 

The TOC page states, "this story takes place prior to Web of Spider-Man #75." 

p. 1-p 3, pn2: We open in the "Classic Arcade" in Madison Square Garden. Iceman and Spider-Man are in the middle of a battle with "living," two-dimensional video game warrior. [I'm pretty sure this character appeared in the Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends cartoon.] With a bit of teamwork, they defeat him and head off to get a bite to eat. Time of day is uncertain, but probably daytime. 

p. 3, pn 3-p. 6: While Iceman and Spider-Man are eating, Firestar drops by. She gets into an argument with Iceman regarding new hero vs. seasoned pro and gives Spidey a kiss on the cheek for sticking up for her before leaving. 

p. 7: Peter Parker at home with his wife, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, watching the news report speculating on a romance between him and Firestar. He ends up sleeping on the couch that night (not explictly shown, but threatened and revealed at the opening of the next scene as having happened). Presumably this is the evening of the day seen in pp 1-6. 

pp. 8-12: Evening. Spidey on patrol. Firestar finds him and proposes she be his partner. (She's been looking for him "for days.") At a convenient moment for Spidey, they see Iceman has just nabbed two crooks for the police. Further verbal jousting between Iceman and Firestar is interrupted by the appearance of the Beetle holding a couple bags of money. He runs, they pursue. 

p. 13: "Three minutes later." The heroes lost and Beetle got away. More sparring by Iceman and Firestar. Spidey gets an idea. 

p. 14: Spidey and MJ at home. Spidey wants to set Iceman and Firestar up. MJ says it's a bad idea. Spidey leaves, set to do it anyway. Time is uncertain. The sky is only seen in one panel, where it is orange, so possibly sun is setting or rising. 

p. 15: The panels alernate between Spidey's separate conversations with Firestar and Iceman, telling him he needs both of their help. Although the conversations were obviously done separately, both follow the same general dialog and probably occur within an hour of each other. Sun is low, probably setting since Spidey says "see you later tonight." 

pp. 16-21. Night. Firestar and Iceman are waiting together for Spidey. They spot someone (Spidey) and follow him to a rooftop, candlelit dinner Spidey set up for the two of them. They eat and talk, but quickly start fighting, although by the end it's obvious there's something between them. 

pp. 22-23. A two page montage of scenes. Firestar and Iceman fight Kraven the Hunter and Swarm, she takes off her mask for him, they fight back to back against unseen foes, walk in the park in their civilian identies, she pops popcorn for them, they hold hands in costume, and watch fireworks over New York City on a rooftop in costume. 

p. 24-p. 32, pn 2. "Weeks later." Daytime. The Shocker is robbing a bank, but Iceman and Firestar take him down. Spider-Man observes, noting, "three weeks later and [the relationship is] still going strong." He's then attacked by the video game creature from the story's opening. Firestar and Iceman intervene, but the creature compensates for the trick Iceman used before. At Spidey's direction, Firestar hits him with a "wide beam," scrambling his energy signature, allowing Iceman to freeze the processor that powers him, ending the threat. [Was that a major run-on sentence?] Firestar and Iceman start arguing and end the relationship, then turn on Spidey who's trying to patch things back up. 

p. 32, pn 3-7. In Peter & MJ's apartment, the two talk about his efforts as cupid. Peter's suffering from a cold, obviously brought on by two annoyed superheroes from the panel before. 

APPEARANCES BY: 
Beetle (presumably Abe Jenkins) 
Firestar 
Iceman 
Kraven the Hunter 
Shocker 
Spider-Man (Peter Parker) 
Swarm 
Mary Jane Watson-Parker 
Video game creature/warrior 

CHRONOLOGICAL CLUES:
Text states it's before WOSM #75. According to the MCP, this means it takes place before NW 7, XF@ 6 and XF 65. 

Peter & MJ are married. 

MJ is sporting her original, straight hairdo. 

Iceman has recently rejoined the X-Men, but is taking a break both from them and from a recently ended relationship. 

Firestar is a member of the "recently formed New Warriors" and is still wearing her original suit. The Warriors are so recently formed that neither Iceman nor Spidey get the group's name right, but the news media knows of the group, so it's after NW 1. 

The Beetle is wearing the Mark II suit.

The second story is a Mini Marvels one, therefore out of continuity. The rest of the issue is reprints of UTSM #2, Spider-Man 2099 #2, and the Hembeck "Petey" story from UTSM #-1. Questions?
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Aug 2006 10:20 pm    
By SeanCurtin

lkseitz wrote: 
Text states it's before WOSM #75. According to the MCP, this means it takes place before NW 7, XF@ 6 and XF 65.[...]Iceman has recently rejoined the X-Men, but is taking a break both from them and from a recently ended relationship. 


Except that Iceman rejoined the X-Men in XF 70, and (IIRC) he broke up with Opal in XF 65. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2006 05:48 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis! Based on Sean's observation, maybe it's time to re-evaluate the chronological order of the comics mentioned. Can this story occur both before WOSM 75 and after XF 70? 

Specific question: how do the panels on pages 22 and 23 break down? I assume these scenes occur over the course of several days?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2006 07:17 am    
By lkseitz

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Specific question: how do the panels on pages 22 and 23 break down? I assume these scenes occur over the course of several days? 
<<<

Yes. I'd say they take place over the "three weeks" mentioned by Spidey on page 24.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2006 07:49 am    
By jephyork
Director

Don't hold me to this, but isn't the video game creature named "Videoman"? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2006 08:44 am    
By Somebody

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
Text states it's before WOSM #75. According to the MCP, this means it takes place before NW 7, XF@ 6 and XF 65.[...]Iceman has recently rejoined the X-Men, but is taking a break both from them and from a recently ended relationship. 
<<<

Except that Iceman rejoined the X-Men in XF 70, and (IIRC) he broke up with Opal in XF 65. 
<<<

Actually, I'm pretty sure he's referring to their "real" breakup in.. umm... UX290, IIRC. It's certainly in UXM a year or so (real-time) after he rejoined, at any rate.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2006 11:12 am    
By rhod

Yeah, Videoman was in at least 3 of the episodes, not 100% sure which ones though, I think the order's messed up on my DVDs.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2006 07:12 pm    
By lkseitz

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Don't hold me to this, but isn't the video game creature named "Videoman"? 
<<<

Upon review, you are correct. He is called by that name three times. I'd only noticed one before, and another where Spidey calls him "Vidster," so I wasn't sure if Videoman was his proper name or not. And to make matters worse, he's standing in front of a Video Man arcade game on the splash page, a detail I had not noticed previously. 
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2006 09:18 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Geez, don't any of you guys remember Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends?!? OF COURSE IT'S VIDEO MAN!!! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2006 06:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Specific question: how do the panels on pages 22 and 23 break down? I assume these scenes occur over the course of several days? 
<<<

Yes. I'd say they take place over the "three weeks" mentioned by Spidey on page 24. 
<<< 


Maybe I should propose a breakdown and see if it's right. I assume the two-page spread means that "panels" are spread out onto both pages: 

22/23p1 -- Firestar and Iceman fight Kraven the Hunter and Swarm 
22/23p2 -- she takes off her mask for him 
22/23p3 -- they fight back to back against unseen foes 
22/23p4 -- they walk in the park in their civilian identies 
22/23p5 -- she pops popcorn for them 
22/23p6 -- they hold hands in costume 
22/23p7 -- they watch fireworks over New York City on a rooftop in costume 

Is this right?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Aug 2006 07:29 pm    
By RLG

The fact that Peter and MJ are married AND that Kraven is alive should limit this issue's placement considerably! 

The dialogue between Spidey and Firestar in WOSM 75 (coincidentally, I just happen to have read this issue yesterday!) would seem to indicate that not only is this Spidey's and Firestar's first meeting, but she is not too familiar with Iceman. 

WOSM 75 (6p2-p3) 
As Iceman departs the scene with Jarvis, Firestar flies in behind Spidey .... 

FIRESTAR: "Gee, was that Iceman?" 
SPIDER-MAN: (thought bubble as he turns around) "Huh?" 
FIRESTAR: "Hi, I'm Firestar." 
SPIDER-MAN: "From the New Warriors, right? I've heard of you kids." 


However, our mission here is to sometimes fit square pegs into round holes, so here it goes... 

It's possible that Iceman sped away so fast that the arriving Firestar didn't get a clear look at him, and that she was asking Spidey for confirmation. 

Also, Firestar's announcement of her name might be not for Spidey's benefit, but rather for the the crowd that is gathered around him, as seen in WOSM 75 (6p3). 

Finally, Spidey's comment about "from the New Warriors" could simply be meant as an observation of her new affiliation or even to help Firestar "plug" the new team to the gathered crowd. 

BTW, when you think about it, the "I've heard of you kids" comment is chillingly prophetic given the current Civil War. I bet the current-day Spidey longs for the days when all he had to worry about was the Painter's Avant Guard and Video Man! (Of course, us readers might disagree...) 


RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Aug 2006 07:02 am    
By lkseitz

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Maybe I should propose a breakdown and see if it's right. I assume the two-page spread means that "panels" are spread out onto both pages: 

[snip] 

Is this right? 
<<<

That'll work. It's one of those panelless montages. If you do a strict, left-to-right and down order, it'd be slightly different: 

22/23p1 -- Firestar and Iceman fight Kraven the Hunter and Swarm 
22/23p2 -- she takes off her mask for him 
22/23p3 -- they fight back to back against unseen foes 
22/23p4 -- they walk in the park in their civilian identies 
22/23p5 -- they hold hands in costume 
22/23p6 -- she pops popcorn for them 
22/23p7 -- they watch fireworks over New York City on a rooftop in costume 

"Panel 5" is the largest and central shot, so it might be more symbolic than real. Also, I presume they're fighting unseen foes in panel 3 because they're back to back, both using their powers. They're paying more attention to each other than what they're doing, so maybe they're just showing off.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Aug 2006 07:21 am    
By lkseitz

RLG wrote: 
>>>
The fact that Peter and MJ are married AND that Kraven is alive should limit this issue's placement considerably! 
<<<

Well, at least it's someone wearing a Kraven the Hunter suit. He's clearly outclassed by Firestar in the panel. Maybe it's someone impersonating him instead? We don't get a clear look at his full face. 


RLG wrote: 
>>>
The dialogue between Spidey and Firestar in WOSM 75 (coincidentally, I just happen to have read this issue yesterday!) would seem to indicate that not only is this Spidey's and Firestar's first meeting, but she is not too familiar with Iceman. 

WOSM 75 (6p2-p3) 
As Iceman departs the scene with Jarvis, Firestar flies in behind Spidey .... 

FIRESTAR: "Gee, was that Iceman?" 
SPIDER-MAN: (thought bubble as he turns around) "Huh?" 
FIRESTAR: "Hi, I'm Firestar." 
SPIDER-MAN: "From the New Warriors, right? I've heard of you kids." 
<<< 

I guess we can't just ignore the note that says it occurs before WOSM #75, huh? Of course placing it after WOSM #75 would really make it hard to fit in a Kraven appearance. 


RLG wrote: 
>>>
I bet the current-day Spidey longs for the days when all he had to worry about was the Painter's Avant Guard and Video Man! (Of course, us readers might disagree...) 
<<<

FTR, in all the characters speech bubbles in this issue, they always say "Videoman," one word.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Aug 2006 11:59 am    
By BobMM

Placing this story "prior to Web of Spider-Man #75" puts the Beetle's appearance between PPTSS 164 and DFSM1, where it doesn't really fit very well. 

Beetle's armor is wrecked at the end of PPTSS and he is sent to prison. DFSM 1 starts with his being paroled and getting new armor from the Tinkerer. It's a pretty clean flow, and putting this Amazing Friends adventure in the middle mucks it up considerably. 

From a purely Beetle perspective, my inclination is to bump the story a bit earlier, to just PRIOR to PPTSS 164. 

[EDIT] Okay, I just did what I should have done earlier -- checked the Spider-Man chronology for the period. You've got WOSM 75 occurring AFTER Deadly Foes. So I'll just shut my yap until I've done my research. 

[EDIT2] All right. If you place Amazing Friends after DFSM, then Beetle's chronology works out okay. His armor is destroyed at the end of DFSM and restored without explanation in his next appearance. It might just as well be back without explanation in Amazing Friends. 

I talk to myself quite a lot, actually.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Aug 2006 11:19 am    
By wolframbane

Woohoo. Videoman!!! Now we have an excuse to put my favorite 2-dimensional villain in the MCP!!! 

Actually, there were 2 Videomen in the cartoon. 

Season 1, ep 7 
"Videoman" - Electro creates a villain called Videoman from an arcade machine. Videoman creates several giant 2D monster to fight, including Pac-Man and Space Invader. 

Season 2, ep 1 
"The Origin of Iceman" - Videoman returns and Iceman retells his origins. 

Season 3, ep 3 
"The Education of a Superhero" - Videoman merges with a game addict Francis Byte, who decides to be a superhero while the Gamesman seeks world domination by electronically hypnotizing the public. At the end, Videoman II is sent to the X-Men's school.

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 28 Aug 2006 08:26 pm    Post subject: X-STATIX 19, 20
By Dhall

X-Statix 19 
April 2004 

Vivisector 
Venus Dee Milo 
Orphan II 
Doop 
The Anarchist 
Dead Girl 

Cody, Brandon 

Professor Xavier (in wheelchair) 

Vivisector II/ Finlay, Doctor Alex 
Lacuna 
Dead Girl 
Alfred, Edward (Myles father) 

Some members of X-Statix attend a movie premier with Brandon Cody, Myles Special Friend. Dr. Finlay quits his job as Xaviers research assistant. Finlay is working on a cure for Vivisector. On TV, Lacuna is still in a coma. While on her TV special, all of the tubes keeping her alive are removed, X-Statix teleports to the rescue, but Lacuna is perfectly fine, its just a ratings stunt. Myles apparently tells X-Statix about the cure for being a mutant, and they think its wrong. Tike makes him angry, and Vivisector attacks. 
Myles takes the cure, then goes on Lacunas show. His boyfriend leaves him, and X-Statix wants him to move out, now that hes no longer on the team. Dr. Finlay tells his girlfriend that he is going to turn himself into the new Vivisector, and give himself Myles powers. 

X-Statix 20 
May 2004 

Vivisector II/ Finlay, Doctor Alex 

Venus Dee Milo 
Orphan II 
Doop 
The Anarchist 
Vivisector 
Dead Girl 

Alfred, Edward 
Cody, Brandon 

Dr. Finlay becomes Vivisector II, and goes to kill Myles father. Myles manages to kill him first, and rejoins X-Statix. 


Edited Note: Since Xavier is in a wheelchair, it implies that this issue takes place after X 150. Still from what we know, it seems that once Xavier goes to Genosha, he stays there. I'm placing this between X 150, and UX 442 for now, until we have a better understanding of the post-gone to Genosha Xavier chronology. It may be that he indeed does take a trip to his West Coast USA lab before he leaves for Genosha, or it could possibly come later. 



Professor X 
 
W/DOOP 1 
W/DOOP 2 
UX 425 
UX 426-BTS 
X 134 
XSTATIX 13 
X 135 
X 136 
X 137 
**X 138 <-This issue continues from 137, and should be here. 
UX 435 
UX 436 
X 138 ?By the way, this issue continues from X 137, and should be removed from here. 
X 139 
NM2 2 
X 140 
X 141 
NM2 3 
NM2 4 
NM2 5 
NM2 6 
NM2 7-FB 
X 146 
X 147 
X 148 
X 149 
X 150 
**XSTATIX 19 
UX 442 
UX 443 

**Alfred, Edward 
XSTATIX 19 
XSTATIX 20 

Anarchist 
 
XSTATIX 17 
XSTATIX 18 
** XSTATIX 19 
** XSTATIX 20 

**Cody, Brandon 
XSTATIX 19 
XSTATIX 20 

Dead Girl 
 
XSTATIX 17 
XSTATIX 18 
** XSTATIX 19 
** XSTATIX 20 

Doop 
 
XSTATIX 17 
XSTATIX 18 
** XSTATIX 19 
** XSTATIX 20 

Lacuna 
XSTATIX 15 
XSTATIX 16 
XSTATIX 17 
** XSTATIX 19 

Orphan II 
 
XSTATIX 17 
XSTATIX 18 
** XSTATIX 19 
** XSTATIX 20 


Venus Dee Milo 
 
XSTATIX 17 
XSTATIX 18 
** XSTATIX 19 
** XSTATIX 20 

Vivisector 
 
XSTATIX 17 
XSTATIX 18 
** XSTATIX 19 
** XSTATIX 20 

**Vivisector II/ Finlay, Doctor Alex 
XSTATIX 19 
XSTATIX 20

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Thread 31

Posted: 28 Aug 2006 09:43 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Four: First Family
By SKleefeld
Director

Finally got around to this... 

Couple of notes first, though. It's been suggested that this isn't canon because of a couple of awkward chronology bits: notably Sue's force fields, Linda McGill, and Sue and Reed's engagement. I've reconciled the engagement thing here, and Linda McGill in a thread on the Marvel Universe section. Also, Chris Claremont established during his tenure on FF3 that Sue did have the ability to create force fields from right after the Pocket Rocket crash, just that she didn't really learn to control them until later. 

And without further ado... 

Fantastic Four: First Family #1 
p. 1 -- One panel. Shortly after the crash that gave the FF their powers, a military helicopter lands to pick them up. This scene occurs seconds before TG 10 pg. 13. 
p. 2 panels 1-2 -- General Montgomery is woken up by a phone call. 
p. 2 panel 3 -- p. 10 -- Montgomery arrives at a USAF base where he's shown the FF, all of whom are being individually quarantined. 
pp. 11-13 -- Beginning at 3:51 a.m. Sue visits the other FFers. 
pp. 14-17 -- The next morning, Reed is in telepathic communication with Franz Stahl. 
pp. 18-20 -- Ben's girlfriend, Linda McGill, stops by to see Ben. She runs off in horror. 
pp. 21-23 -- That night, there's a "security breach on level twelve"sending the whole base into a scramble. 

Fantastic Four: First Family #2 
pp. 1-8 -- Picks up right after the end of #1. Guards and the FF battle the intruder, eventually killing him. 
p. 9 -- Reed talks with Montgomery 
pp. 10- 11 -- Reed talks with the rest of the FF. 
p. 12 -- Montgomery reports to various military on the disappearance of the NATO nuclear weapons base of Kleine Brogel. 
p. 13 -- Reed sees a similar report about Kirkland Air Force Base on the news and fires off the Fantastiflare. Panels 1-5 occur prior to FF 1 page 1, but the final panel roughly coincides with the first panel of FF 1 page 2. 
p. 14 -- "32 Hours Later" above Monster Island, the FF fly off as the island explodes. This occurs just after the end of FF 1. 
pp. 15- 16 -- Reed reports on the Mole Man to Montgomery. 
pp. 17-19 -- Reed and Sue talk while... 
pp. 20-22 -- Stahl mentally kills his family over the dinner table. 

Fantastic Four: First Family #3 
pp. 1-4 -- Ben hangs out in a Yancy Street bar. He's unrecognized even after his hat and coat come off, so this likely occurs before FF 2. 
pp. 5-6 -- Johnny returns to Swenson's Garage and sees the car he slagged in FF 1. 
pp. 7-9 -- Reed and Sue are working out by the waterfront. (Presumably, this is Pier 4 since Reed claimed to have owned the property for years when readers first saw it in FF3.) Sue notes some unusual siesmic disturbances. Reed signals the rest of the team. 
pp. 10-20 -- A monster erupts in the middle of NYC and the FF save bystanders before launching it into the Hudson. (Essentially, this is an extended recreation of the cover to FF 1.) What appears to be the Flatiron Building is toppled and a Stark Industries truck is seen driving by. News cameras are swarming all over the place, and Channel 6 news catches up with Reed for some comments after the fight. 
pp. 21-22 -- "Twelve Hours Later" Reed is checking in with Montgomery via satellite. Montgomery notes that the FF's secrecy is thrown out the window after the TV interview (pretty decisively placing all this before FF 2) and that the Baxter Building is available for sale. 

Fantastic Four: First Family #4 
p. 1 -- One panel. Construction is taking place atop the Baxter Building. 
p. 2 panels 1-5 -- Vinettes of people talking about the FF. Supposedly, they're going to move into the Baxter Building "by the end of the month." Folks are still talking about the "monster fight on the news" suggesting that it's still very recent. No mention is made of the FF being traitors or being detained by the army, suggesting that this occurs before FF 2. 
p. 2 panel 6 - p. 3 -- Ben hangs out in the park. 
pp. 4-5 -- Sue and Johnny talk in the under-construction Baxter Bldg. Johnny flies off at the end of the scene. 
p. 6 -- Reed shows Montgomery around the under-construction Baxter Bldg. 
pp. 7-8 -- Johnny returns to Swenson's Garage and is mobbed by adoring teenage girls. 
pp. 9-13 -- Reed shows Ben around the Baxter Bldg. It seems mostly done but exterior shots show that construction is still going on. Ben storms off at the end of the scene. 
pp. 14-19 -- Some time has passed but Reed and Sue are wearing the same clothes, suggesting that it's just later the same day. Sue storms off and Stahl gets into Reed's head. 
pp. 20-22 -- Stahl mentally infiltrates the USAF base from #1, killing most of the personnel. 

Fantastic Four: First Family #5 
pp. 1-3 panel 2 -- Ben and Sue talk. They're wearing the same clothes as they had in #4. 
p. 3 panel 3 - p. 7 -- Nighttime. Johnny returns to Swenson's Garage and interrupts a break-in. He accidentally kills the intruders. 
p. 8 -- Reed receives a pre-recorded message from Montgomery saying that the base has come under attack. 
pp. 9-10 -- Johnny returns to Sue's apartment to find Ben and Sue still talking. Johnny notes having just come from Swenson's. 
p. 11 panels 1-3 -- Reed arrives at the USAF base. 
p. 11 panel 4 - p. 12 panel 1 -- Ben, Sue and Johnny hear Montgomery's message. 
p. 12 panels 2-4 -- Reed walks through the base. 
p. 12 panel 5 - p. 13 panel 2 -- Johnny, Sue and Ben prepare to leave. 
p. 13 panel 3 - p. 14 panel 1 -- Reed goes deeper into the base. 
p. 14 panels 2-3 -- Sue, Johnny and Ben uncover the Fantasticar. 
p. 14 panel 4 - p. 19 -- Reed finds Stahl in the base. 
p. 20 panels 1-3 -- Ben, Sue and Johnny launch the Fantasticar. 
p. 20 panel 4 - p. 21 -- Stahl morphs some of the remaining surviving soldiers. 
pp. 22-23 -- Johnny, Sue and Ben arrive at the base to find the mutated soldiers, who attack them. Given that it was dark when they left NYC and it's light now, that would suggest the base is considerably farther out west, where the FF could've flown faster than the sun was setting. However, one of the shots in #1 has a sign on the gate noting that the facility is a "New York State Military Installation." That would suggest that we're actually looking at the FF essentially being up all night and arriving at the base around dawn the day after #4 pg. 9. 

Fantastic Four: First Family #6 
p. 1 - p. 21 panel 1 -- I started to break this down panel by panel, but it got really cumbersome really quickly. Basically, it picks up right after the end of #5. Reed and Sue fight Stahl on his mental playground while Johnny and Ben kick butt in the real world. There aren't really any breaks per se, but it switches back and forth between reality and Stahl's head trip frequently. Suffice it to say that Reed and Sue eventually defeat Stahl, wake up in the real world, and everything is pretty much back to "normal." 
p. 21 panels 2-6 -- Reed presents Sue with an engagement ring. They're living in the Baxter Building at this point, and the construction seems to be finished, suggesting that this occurs after FF 2. It's been noted that Sue has already noted her engagement to Reed in FF 1, but since it wasn't officially announced until FF 36, I don't see this sequence causes any problems with continuity. Reed doesn't actually propose in this sequence, he merely gives Sue a ring and says, "If you're willing, I guess all that's left now is to set a date. No rush, of course." Evidently, that date isn't set until sometime shortly before FF 36, when they publically announce their engagement. 
pp. 22-23 -- "Twenty-Seven Hours Later" Miracle Man's Bijou Theatre monster is on the rampage and the FF race in using the Fantasticar. The Fantasticar has not yet separated, and it does not actually show the FF and the monster in the same panel, placing this between pages 8 and 9 of FF 3. Reed's dialogue suggests that the monster is in view, but he may just be speaking from police scanner reports or news coverage. Ben also starts to remove his uniform, but Sue tries to talk him out of it -- evidently successfully as he wears it a little while longer according to FF 3. I'll note, too, that p. 23 panel 1 is an homage to the cover of FF 3.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Aug 2006 06:36 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
pp. 18-20 -- Ben's girlfriend, Linda McGill, stops by to see Ben. She runs off in horror.  
<<<

Sean, how does this scene from FF:FF 1 square with the same scene from M/FAN 46/2? If there's new material here, could you do a panel-by-panel breakdown? Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Aug 2006 05:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The two scenes are wholly unrelated, other than the presence of Thing and McGill. In FF:FF 1, Gen. Montgomery brings Linda in to see Ben for the first time after his transformation. The scene occurs in the USAF base, where Ben and the FF are still being detained, and Linda only sees Ben for a second or two. The surrounding chronological clues clearly place this very shortly after the original Pocket Rocket crash. 

In M/FAN, Linda visits Ben in his NYC apartment. She gets a better look at him, but is still shocked to see what he looks like. Like the FF:FF 1 scene, it's written as if Linda is seeing Ben for the first time; however, it never states that expressly. Indeed, it's easily plausible that Linda sees Ben in FF:FF 1 and recoils in shock/horror, then gets up the nerve to see him again in M/FAN 46/2 but still finds his appearance too shocking. That's when Ben takes it upon himself to find Linda and scares her away for her own good. 

For clarification, I see Ben's chronology running like this... 
Fantastic Four, vol 1 #1, Flashback, pp. 9-13 (The original origin sequence) 
Fantastic Four, vol 1 #11, 2nd Story, Flashback, p. 9 
Fantastic Four: First Family #1, p. 1 
Thing #10, Flashback, pp. 13-16 
Fantastic Four: First Family #1, pp. 2-23 
Fantastic Four: First Family #2, pp. 1-11 
Fantastic Four, vol 3 #50, Flashback, pp. 12-13 
Marvel Fanfare #46, 2nd Story, pp. 3-8 
Fantastic Four, vol 1 #1 (The Mole Man story) 
Fantastic Four: First Family #2, pp. 14-22 
Fantastic Four: First Family #3 

Note that everything between FF:FF 1 p. 2 and FF:FF 2 p. 11 occurs on that USAF base while the team is under observation; therefore, all other flashback appearances to that general time period have to occur on either side of that sequence.

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 28 Aug 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Marvel Western: Two-Gun Kid
By SKleefeld
Director

p. 1 - p. 2 panel 3 -- Shulkie and Two-Gun are hunting down Jen's husband. He's actually noted as her husband, clearly placing this after She-Hulk's wedding to John Jameson. 

p. 2 panel 4 - p. 4 -- "Tombstone 1876." Kid Clayton and Nantan encounter a pack of wolves and get torn up pretty badly. Between the costumes, the silver bullets and the name referencing Clayton Moore, it's pretty clear this is intended to be Marvel's answer to the Lone Ranger and Tonto. 

pp. 5-7 -- Two-Gun finds Kid Clayton dead, so he buries him. Nantan survives to be taken to his tribe. 

p. 8 -- Matt Hawk does some investigating in town. 

pp. 9-10 -- "Old Man Svenson" tells Two-Gun about Kid Clayton's silver bullets. 

p. 11 - p. 20 panel 3 -- Two-Gun returns to the Dead Lands and encounters some wolfish creatures. He digs up Kid Clayton's silver bullets and kills the lycanthropic creatures, watching them morph back into the local gang of ruffians. 

p. 20 panel 4 - p. 21 panel 3 -- Two-Gun returns to the Native American tribe and relays what happened. 

p. 21 panel 4 - p. 22 -- Back in 2006, Two-Gun uses his last slver bullet to shoot the werewolf (believed to be John Jameson) that pounces on him. An editorial note reads "Not the end! Two-Gun and Shulkie's adventure continues in She-Hulk #11!" I have to then presume that this story occurs before SH4 11.  

STORY #2 -- "Tall Tale" 
pp. 1-3 -- Hugo tries riding into town, falls off his horse, and has to walk to find Gabbo. Gabbo notes that this occurs after some incident involving the Rawhide Kid. Presumably, this refers to Rawhide Kid #47 and should occur after that issue. Gabbo has served jail time during that interval, and suggests that he served his sentence in its entirety. The only appearances in this whole story are of Hugo and Gabbo. 

pp. 4-5 -- Hugo saves Gabbo's vent dummy from a tribe of native Americans. 

p. 6 -- Six weeks later, Hugo returns to Gabbo and "it's said the fight lasted for days." 

The remaining story is a reprint from Rawhide Kid #22.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Aug 2006 06:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
An editorial note reads "Not the end! Two-Gun and Shulkie's adventure continues in She-Hulk #11!" I have to then presume that this story occurs before SH4 11. 
<<<

It wouldn't surprise me if this occurs sometime during S-H4 11. It seems like we're plunked down in the middle of a scene from a SHE-HULK story we haven't seen yet, and S-H4 10 has been published. 

Thanks for the analysis, Sean.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Aug 2006 12:26 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

SH4 11 came out today, and the entire contemporary sequence in Two-Gun is line-for-line identical with SH4 11 p. 10 - p. 12 panel 2. 

The artwork is different, but -- as near as I can tell at first blush -- imparts no new information. 

I should've known Slott would make it that obvious how the two fit together!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Aug 2006 12:42 pm    
By rhod

Well at least there's one writer who can keep things together.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Posted: 30 Aug 2006 08:54 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Okay, side by side comparison time... 

The captions/internal monologues are quite different between the two stories, but since they're written from the perspectives of She-Hulk and Two-Gun in their respective books, that's no surprise. But since it's not part of the "facts" of what happens, it's more or less a moot point. There are a few slight differences in the two books WRT dialogue and actions, so I'll focus on those and not bog things down with variations in pacing or whatnot... 

SH4 11 pg. 10 panel 2 -- Matt: "We're here. Accordin' to my tracker, your husband should be up ahead." The two are standing in an alley, evidently having just dismounted from Lightning. In Two-Gun, they're still riding when Matt says, "We're here" and She-Hulk is in the process of dismounting when he says, "Accordin' to my tracker, your husband should be up ahead." 

SH4 11 pg. 10 panel 4 -- Jen: "You better hang back. I'll take it from here." Matt: "Sorry, Miss Jenny..." The perspective is vastly different such that we see Man-Wolf perched on a fire escape above them here, where he was not at all visible in Two-Gun until he pounced on them. 

SH4 11 pg. 11 panel 1 -- Jen: "...but out of the two of us, I'm bigger and stronger than you." Matt: "That may be. But I'm better-equipped. Trust me, ma'am... I've been in a spot like this before." The dialogue in Two-Gun reads, "That may be. But I'm better equipped. Trust me, ma'am. Ya see... I've been in a spot like this before." (My emphasis.) I'll make a minor note, too, that "better-equipped" is hyphenated in SH4 11 but not in Two-Gun. 

SH4 11 pg. 11 panel 5 -- Having just seen Matt pull out a silver bullet and load it into his gun, Jen says, "Kid? What're you...?" This scene is new and features Jen only. 

SH4 11 pg. 11 panel 6 -- Man-Wolf leaps down onto Matt and growls "GGRRRRAAW". In Two-Gun he was silent. 

SH4 11 pg. 12 panel 1 -- Matt spins around and fires at Man-Wolf. Matt's standing fully erect, feet planted on the ground, and faces Man-Wolf at about a 90 degree angle. Man-Wolf seems to have leapt at Matt almost horizontally. In Two-Gun, this scene takes three panels and clearly has Matt falling onto his back, his left foot kicking into the air, but ultimately facing Man-Wolf head-on. Man-Wolf's leap here places him almost directly above Matt. Further, Man-Wolf is still wearing the tattered remains of his shirt in Two-Gun compared to his shirtless appearance in SH4 11. 

So, there you go.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Aug 2006 06:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So, for Jen, John, and Matt, the chronology goes: 

SH4 11 (1-9) 
SH4 11 (10-12:2) ~ MW:TGK 1 
SH4 11 (12:3-22) 

Right?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Aug 2006 11:11 am    
By Somebody

Wouldn't it be MW:TGK 1 ~ SH4 11 (10-12:2) since TGK was published first?

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Aug 2006 03:50 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Actually, the one that we list first is the more prominent book to each character's chronology, rather than the first published book. It's a judgement call, but it means that it could be listed one way in one character's chronology, and the reverse in a different character's. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:43 pm    Post subject: Marvel and Continuity Issues
By Jason Doty

In are recent debate about X-Men: Deadly Genesis and Polaris in other comics. Someone asked basically if we should be able as fans to "make up" plausable explanations to explain inconsistancies involving chronologies to beter fit them into a readable order. 

So I went to the Marvel site and searched for the word "continuity" in their blogs and found several blogs by Tom Brovoort. In one entry he wrote 

Quote: 
>>>
It used to be that the fans were the ones who worked at making the continuity function, coming up with rationales for how mistakes weren't mistakes. Heck, we used to give out No-Prizes for just that. But in the last decade, that seems to have changed, and rather than being challenged by continuity, most vocal fans today seem irritated by it, demanding explanations for every seeming inconsistency, and not bringing any thought to the matter themselves. Not that they're required to especially, but it seems like a somewhat more productive approach if something bothers you than just complaining about it everywhere. 
<<<

So, this brings up my question. As fans isn't that exactly what we are doing here, making continuity function? Whether we "believe" it to be a coloring error, miscomunication between editorial departments, or a different interpritation of the books themselves. 

I posted this here for discussion and opinion because at times I'm confused why we can't as fans can't come up plausable explanations and we always seem to need Marvels "official" or editorial intent when determining chronologies when the company, or those employed by them, "seem" to be letting fans know that continuity is only a tool and should'nt be the key factor in telling "good" stories. So, on another note, as a fan site, utilized by the fans, should'nt we as fans determine what is and is not canon based on what we believe after much debate and discussion? 

Anyway, this is just a rant and not meant to challenge any authority, just something for conversation.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I don't think that many people here "need Marvel's official or editorial intent." 

But there's a difference between that, and attempting not to contradict "Marvel's official or editorial intent." 

Absent "mooei", we should be free to order the stories and events in whatever order we think works best. 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

All I was saying is, if Lorna's unconscious in one issue and still unconscious in the next issue, I'm not sure we should feel that it's okay to just pretend she woke up and had some adventures, then went back into her coma. 

By the way ... what's "mooei"? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2006 10:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
By the way ... what's "mooei"? 
<<<

Marvel's official or editorial intent. 

I just didn't want to say it three times, in a three-sentence post. 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2006 12:37 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
All I was saying is, if Lorna's unconscious in one issue and still unconscious in the next issue, I'm not sure we should feel that it's okay to just pretend she woke up and had some adventures, then went back into her coma.  
<<<

I think if we were faced with a situation where we had to do that, or have to lose an appearance, then I'd go with the former. In the abscense of "mooei" that is. 

Everybody say it with me "Moooooei"

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2006 07:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yeah -- if there was absolutely no other chronological possibility, I'd agree. But if there IS one, I'd rather use it -- and be left with an awkward chronology that doesn't use wild fan-created workarounds, than a smooth one that does. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2006 08:41 pm    
By Truebeliever

I think Tom Bevoorts comment is a totally irrelevant copout... Yes fans have always tried to make up excuses for editorial slipups.. But the difference between then and now is that in the past writers and editors generally respected past events and tried to make stuff fit... It seems that these days Marvel doesnt give a damn... Frequently the writers make NO EFFORT whatsoever to make allowances for each others story telling when writing about the same character. 
What order do the last 18 months worth of Spider-Man arcs occur in? I dont know and I dont think Brevoort or any of the spider-man writers have any clue either... That is just lax... 
OF course mistakes creep in. nobody is perfect.. But this sounds like an editor complaining that fans are asking him to do his job.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Aug 2006 01:54 pm    
By ashram316

I operate under the assumption that good stories outweigh continuity. Usually, if a story is great, but doesn't fit, we can make it fit. Besides, part of the fun of this whole thing is finding spaces for all of the events that occur in the crazy ol' MU.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 21 Aug 2006 01:56 pm    Post subject: Recipints of the Super Soldier Formula?
By wolframbane

I wanted to compile a list of every character within the Marvel Universe and Ultimate Universe who has been enhanced by the Super Soldier Serum, and the subsequent abilities they gained. Below is a list of everyone I immediately know of, are there any that I missed? 

In the MU, Dr. Erskine developed the SSS treatment in 1940, and injected it into Steve Rogers. After the SSS had been stabilized in his body with 'vita-rays', Rogers gained Olympic level strength, dexterity and endurance. His body also does not produce fatigue poisons, giving him great stamina. When placed in arctic waters, the SSS can place him in suspended animation. And apparently it grants him longevity, as in some paralled futures (like 1602) he does not age. 

Captain America was killed during Onslaught and reborn on Counter-Earth, where parallel events had him become Cap again. On Counter-Earth, he was never in suspended animation and never aged, and apparently retains the same body still. 

Erskine was killed before he committed the SSS formula to paper, thus the secret was apparently lost. Apparently a German spy stole a portion of his notes, however, which later ended up in a German warehouse and later unearthed by 'Steve Rogers' (name legally changed), who used it on himself and Jack Monroe, making themselves Captain America (later Grand Director) and Bucky (later Nomad). Because they were not exposed to the stabilizing 'vita-rays', they soon developed superhuman strength and endurance and went insane. Bucky later recieved counselling an got better. 

Keen Marlowe met Prof. Eric Schmitt in a Nazi prison, who developed a derivitive of the SSS. he became the superhumanly strong Destroyer. Brian Falsworth also recieved the SSS in WW2, becoming both Destroyer and Union Jack. Roger Aubrey, the Dyna-Mite and Destroyer, also eventually used the SSS, although he did not gain super-strength, he has retained strength and vitality for decades. 

Johann Schmidt, the Red Skull, briefly reaped the benefits of the SSS when he possessed the cloned body of Captain America. 

Natasha Romanoff, the Black Widow, has as some point used an SSS variant, granting her longevity since her childhood in 1941. 

In the UU, Steve Rogers again was exposed to the SSS, giving him comparable abilities to his MU counterpart (except for perhaps superhuman strength, the MU Cap can lift 800 lbs, the UU Cap was observed lifting 1100 lbs). 

The UU Bruce banner used the SSS to catalyze his second transformation into the Hulk, which aparently bonded the 'Hulk DNA' permanently to his own. 

Any others?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2006 09:05 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Pvt. Clinton McIntire was given the serum shortly prior to Rogers. He had physical strength and mental problems similar to the '50s Cap, and was also placed in suspended animation. AIM woke him up in the present and dubbed him Protocide. 

Isaiah Bradley and a couple dozen black soldiers were given an even earlier prototype serum; about a half a dozen actually survived the process, and Bradley was the only one to survive the war. Bradley had physical abilities roughly on par with Cap, but the serum, coupled with untreated exposure to Zyklon-B in the Nazis' camps, eventually gave him brain damage. The other survivors of the process might have been even stronger than Cap, given their swollen musculature, although Bradley was an even match for the only one who he actually fought hand-to-hand. It was implied that the serum had given them similar mental imbalances to those suffered by the '50s Cap and Protocide. 

Ted Sallis was transformed into the Man-Thing by an experimental SSS that he and his wife were developing. Samuel Beckwith later duplicated this formula from Sallis's notes, was transformed into the Glob by it, and was incinerated by the Man-Thing's touch. 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 09:39 pm    
By Somebody

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Isaiah Bradley and a couple dozen black soldiers were given an even earlier prototype serum; 
<<<

Actually, they postdate Cap himself (presumably, they were part of an early recreation attempt). 

And, of course, Sentry was created by a SUPER-Super-Soldier-Serum, that was destroyed as far, far too dangerous after Robert nicked the serum and the results became clear.

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Thread 35

Posted: 22 Aug 2006 12:12 pm    Post subject: Coming from Marvel in November
By JD

Newsarama has just published the solicitations : 
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Nov06/solicitations.html 

My, what a busy month. 

Highlights : 

New series : 

- THE IMMORTAL IRON FIST #1 written by Ed Brubaker and Matt Fraction, drawn by David Aja. Apparently an ongoing now. Let's hope it lasts longer than the last one... 

- PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL #1 is resollicited. 

New miniseries : 

- ULTIMATE VISION #0, collecting the six previous backup features, in preparation for a miniseries next month (the first two chapters have been recolored, for some reason). 

- SPIDER-MAN & POWER PACK #1 (of 4) Yet another of those, yeah. 

- AVENGERS NEXT #1 & 2 (of 5) A new MC2 mini. 

- AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES II #1 & 2 (of 8) A sequel, with the team of Goliath, The Wasp, Hawkeye, The Black Panther & The Vision. Joe Casey still writes, Will Rosado draws. 

- BULLET POINTS #1 (OF 5) Set in WW2, by Straczinski and Tommy Lee Edwards. 

- FANTASTIC FOUR: THE END #1 & 2 (of 6), by Alan Davis 

- ONSLAUGHT REBORN #1 (of 5), by Jeph Loeb and Rob Liefeld. Oh, god. there's also a MARVEL MILESTONES reprinting ONSLAUGHT:MU. 

- WHITE TIGER #1 (of 6), co-written by Tamora Pierce and someone called Timothy Liebe. 

- MARVEL PRESENTS: DEMONS OF MERCY #1 (of 6) , another video-game tie-in. 

- WISDOM #1 (of 6) MAX. By Paul Cornell and Trevor Hairsine. Features Pete Wisdom. 

Oneshots : 

- SPIDER-MAN FAMILY FEATURING SPIDER-CLAN A sequel to the Mangaverse "Spider-Man : Legend of the Spider-Clan" mini, by the same creative team. Also : reprints of Spider-Man 2099 #3, Amazing Spider-Man #252 and Marvel Shadows & Light #2. 

- FRANKLIN RICHARDS: HAPPY FRANKSGIVING!, yet another one-shot. 

- MARVEL LEGACY: THE 1980's HANDBOOK Third "period" handbook this year. 

- STAN LEE MEETS SILVER SURFER, another oneshot. Co-Written by Paul Jenkins, drawn by Mike Wieringo and Pasqual Ferry. 

- It's that time of the year again : three new WHAT IF? oneshots. AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED, SPIDER-MAN: THE OTHER, and WOLVERINE: ENEMY OF STATE. 

- YOUNG GUNS: RELOAD SKETCHBOOK Yes, "Young Guns: Reload", really. 

- PUNISHER: X-MAS SPECIAL Written by Stuart Moore. Marvel Knights. Curiously, Supreme Power is also under the Marvel Knights baniere now. 

Things of note for ongoings : 

- ULTIMATE X-MEN #76 has the debut of Ultimate Bishop. 

- INCREDIBLE HULK #100 is supersized, with a 12-page back-up drawn by Gary Frank, and reprints of v2 #152 & 300. 

- We already have a fill-in artist for HEROES FOR HIRE #4. Yeah, right... 

- MOON KNIGHT #7 is a "Casualty of War". 

- WOLVERINE #48 is an epilogue to the CW tie-in. 

- NEW AVENGERS #26 features the return of the Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye. Yawn. 

- According to the NEW EXCALIBUR solicit, Tieri stays at least until #15. 

- They're still soliciting AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #538, CIVIL WAR #7 and FANTASTIC FOUR #543, even though they're not coming till January at least. 

Notable collections : 

- MARVEL MASTERWORKS : Thor v5 

- ESSENTIALS : Captain America v3, Man-Thing v1 

- a NEW X-MEN omnibus, collecting the whole Morrison run. 

- MARVEL HOLIDAY DIGEST, reprinting the oneshots from 2004 and 2005, plus M/TU #1 and UX #143. 

- Trades for the whole of the HEROES REBORN CA and IM series. 

- CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON: THE SWINE TPB, reprinting CA #206-214 and annuals #3-4. 

- AVENGERS: GALACTIC STORM VOL. 2 TPB 

- X-MEN: THE COMPLETE AGE OF APOCALYPSE EPIC BOOK 4 TPB. The last one, I think. 

- PUNISHER: VERY SPECIAL HOLIDAYS TPB, reprinting some recent specials

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 02:17 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
BULLET POINTS #1 (OF 5) Set in WW2, by Straczinski and Tommy Lee Edwards. 
<<<

And non-canon, in that the premise is "what if Prof. Erskine was killed before giving Cap the Super Soldier Serum?" 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 06:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES II 
<<<

Given the first mini-series, I'm not counting on the canonicity of this one.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 06:47 pm    
By garbonzo

JD wrote: 
>>>
Apparently an ongoing now. Let's hope it lasts longer than the last one... 
<<<
 
And is better than the last one! That one stunk! 
garbonzo

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 09:09 pm    
By JLH

JD wrote: 
>>>
- AVENGERS NEXT #1 & 2 (of 5) A new MC2 mini. 
<<<

Sounds like a certain digest sold well...

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 09:17 pm    
By lkseitz

JD wrote: 
>>>
- ULTIMATE VISION #0, collecting the six previous backup features, in preparation for a miniseries next month (the first two chapters have been recolored, for some reason). 
<<<

Didn't Marvel say something about never reprinting these when the original issues were solicited? 
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 09:29 pm    
By Somebody

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
JD wrote: 
>>>
- ULTIMATE VISION #0, collecting the six previous backup features, in preparation for a miniseries next month (the first two chapters have been recolored, for some reason). 
<<<

Didn't Marvel say something about never reprinting these when the original issues were solicited?  
<<<

Why do you think they're recolouring some of it? 
