	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Zuras (in print pre-Eternals 5)
2. Excalibur: Merlyn's Dreams
3. ACTOR Comics Presents
4. Red Wolf note
5. Dracula, Doctor Strange, Wong note
6. Marvel Team-Up #25 [minor SPOILER]
7. ASM 535 appearance
8. 'Real-World' people
9. Mr. Hyde note
10. Richard Rory in She-Hulk 15
11. Wolverine / Nick Fury
12. placement of MTU 135
13. Master List of Alternate Earths?
14. When did Living Monolith meet Mr. Sinister?
15. Civil War Files
16. When did Prof X first meet Corsair?
17. Various Captain Americas...
18. Tana Nile
19. Spidey's New Costume
20. Why is Prince of Power noncanon?
21. Star-Lords, those crazy Star-Lords
22. Ms Marvel's "Full Week" within #18...{Spoilers}...
23. Betty Ross/ Golden Girl from the 1940s and 1950s
24. New Avengers #20 explained...
25. Moon Knight Chronology ('92 Special & Divided We Fall)
26. Red Skull/Zola/Captain American question
27. Wolverine 1/2
28. Invaders in Black Panther v4 21-FB
29. ka-zar in marvel fanfare 1-4

	Issue Analysis Forum
30. Human Torch 5B
31. X-Men: The Unlikely Saga of Xavier, Magneto, and Stan (XIII)
32. Marvel Monsters Fin Fang Four
33. Punisher: The Tyger
34. Stan Lee Meets Dr. Strange

	Chat Forum
35. Hellstorm MAX







Thread 1

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Zuras (in print pre-Eternals 5)
By CoolJerk

Just discovered this by accident -- 

Zuras' first appearance in Marvel Comics is Captain Marvel (vol. 1), #29 in a flashback. TOHOTMU places it as Eternals (vol. 1) #5... which came out three years later. 

My question is: wouldn't Zuras' appearance in CM be the true first appearance? It's no different than Eros/Starfox's first appearance in Iron Man (vol. 1), #55... which was also told in flashback form. 

Interesting find, esp. since I thought Kirby had created all the Eternals on the spot for his Eternals series. But there's Zuras in 1973. 

Apologies if this has already been addressed.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:21 pm    
By Enda80

Sorry to burst your bubble, but as written, the redhaired figure in that story to the word represented Zeus. Only later was it designated as Zuras in E-616 WI bus.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:31 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Back for two minutes and already you're not making sense. Would you mind cluing the peons in as to what "E-616 WI bus" means? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:08 pm    
By Enda80

What If back-ups set on Earth-616. 

By the way, I spoke with Starlin himself about this once. We tried to figure out if Zuras or Zeus were older.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:15 pm  
By jephyork
Director

Starlin must have been absolutely thrilled at having that conversation.  

So CoolJerk says that the character in Captain Marvel #29 is Zuras. And you're saying that according to some What If? back-up stories, it was Zuras. 

So what exactly is your point? Why the need for "bursting his bubble" is you're presenting information that backs up his claim? 

Crazy. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:34 pm    
By Enda80

"Zuras' first appearance in Marvel Comics is Captain Marvel (vol. 1), #29 in a flashback. TOHOTMU places it as Eternals (vol. 1) #5... which came out three years later. " 

It is not especially fair to Jack Kirby to neglect to explain that Jim Starlin really did not create Zuras. 

For the record, Mister Starlin was interested in a printout I showed him on Once a Hero that used doctored covers of Captain Marvel. We deduced Zuras as older than Zeus as Conan once told some Greeks he had never heard of Zeus.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:40 pm    
By Col_Fury

It took me three times to read this, but I think I've figured out what you're trying to say. 

First, a character appears in Captain Marvel 29. 

Then, Jack Kirby created Zuras. 

Later, a back-up in an issue of What If...? tied the character appearing in Captain Marvel 29 to Zuras, saying they're the same. 

...right?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:20 pm    
By Mikhail

I think Enda80 is upset because he thinks acknowledging that earlier appearance of Zuras would somehow degrade Kirby's role as the character's creator. 

Whatever. It's the same thing with Apocalypse. The 12 storyline revealed that the fez-wearing guy who approached Ahmet Abdol to become the Living Pharoah was actually Apocalypse in disguise, and that scene in Marvel Graphic Novel #17 was printed before X-Factor #5. So, officially, Apocalypse's first appearance has been retconned to something other than what it was. Or those random Guthrie siblings that were running around for years in New Mutants before Paige Guthrie was named and fleshed out in X-Force #32. That doesn't mean David Micheline should be credited as Apocalypse's creator, or whoever did the old New Mutants created Husk. 

This is a Chronology Project, not Credit Where Credit Is Due Project.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:24 pm    
By Enda80

Other Zeus appearances redesignated as Zuras include his appearance in the following: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makkari_%28comics%29 
Marvel continuity was later retconned so that the mythological god Mercury, introduced as a Marvel protagonist in Red Raven Comics #1 (Aug. 1940; "Mercury In the 20th Century" by artist Kirby and writer Martin A. Bursten, pen name "Burstein") was, in fact, Makkari. The Zeus in that story therefore was Zuras.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:00 pm    
By CoolJerk

To reiterate: 

Zuras' first appearance was in Captain Marvel (Vol. 1) #29, pre-dating Eternals #5 by a couple years. This was a flashback origin of Alars (aka Mentor), his sibling Zuras and their father Chronos. 

It was not Zeus, any way you look at it. 

Zuras: Eternal of Olympia. Brother to Alars. Uncle to Eros (Starfox) and Thanos. 

Zeus: God of Olympus. Brother to Poseidon and Pluto. Father of Hercules, Apollo, Athena and too many other Greek gods to mention. 

Just wondered if anyone pointed this out yet, that's all. I found it interesting.

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Posted: 21 Aug 2006 07:58 pm    Post subject: Excalibur: Merlyn's Dreams
By Andrew Greaves

In EXC 50, on p.36, when Merlyn admitted to his manipulations of the team, he confirmed that the whole "Possession" incident was a complete fabrication. However, he never mentioned which other incidents were also shared dreams. 

Has anyone ever bothered to identify which adventures never happened? Presumably, they would be ones which don't fit continuity or which deal with problems that would have endangered the gambit. 

EXC 20 "The Eye of the Beholder" and EXC 26 "The Times They Are A-Changin'" fit the former parameter. Capatain Britain's Union Jack costume was destroyed before the group ever encountered Widget. There's simply no point of time when those two adventures could have occurred. 

EXC 37-39 "The Promethium Exchange" is rather more critical. From start to finish, the entire affair makes less sense than the "Possession" incident. Consider some salient points: 

- Kitty is being incredibly credulous. This is the same person who would have rather died than let the X-Men owe a favour to Dr. Doom. 

- The Soulsword is in the wrong location. It was embedded in a boulder directly outside the lighthouse's door. 

- The use of the Dimensional Fine Tuner from EXC 20, which itself could not have occurred. 

- No Stepping Disks. The single most significant feature about Belasco's Limbo, and they never make a single appearance. 

- Phoenix was able to forestall the blade from destroying the 'Heart of Limbo', when she had previously been completely incapable of affecting it. 

- No continuity. The next time Belasco's Limbo makes an appearance, it's as if the events that transpired in these issues had never occurred. 

My postulation is that the Soulsword posed a major threat to the accomplishment of Merlyn's Gambit. While it would have posed a major threat to a sorcerous foe like Necrom, the risk of Necrom claiming it and wielding it against Merlyn were far to great. 

So, Merlyn crafted an elaborate fantasy so that he could mask the actual Soulsword from perception. At the same time, he fixed Nightcrawler's teleportation problem. 

The whole bit with the promethium, Darkoth, the name Otherplace, and the like were complete fabrications. Rather silly ones, too. 

Note that the Soulsword that was later introduced EXC 83-85 "Soul Sword Trilogy" seems to differ from the original. Most notably in its being sheathed within the torso of its wielder. 

Somebody had obviously been watching far too much "Revolutionary Girl Utena". 

The original Soulsword is still stuck in the rock just outside the door of the collapsed Excalibur lighthouse on Formby Point. The new Soulsword is the result of Margali's manipulations. She implanted false memories in her daughter Amanda (EXC -1) and manipulated Gravemoss into using Shadowcat's link with the original Soulsword as a template to forge a new one. 

Kitty's emotional state during that whole affair are reminiscent of how Illyana forged the original. 

Margali, of course, would have known that Amanda would have turned the new Soulsword over to her mother for safekeeping. That was the whole point of the matter. 

Sorry about straying from the topic, but the whole thing interconnects too much. 

Incidentally, I would blame Captain Britain having his union jack costume during Mojo Mayhem as simple artistic error. Everything else fits into continuity nicely. 

As for True Friends, I'd have to know how much had been changed between writing and publication. I'm inclined to dismiss Wolverine's appearance in the present as being topical though.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2006 07:47 am 
By jephyork
Director

A few points: 

1) Merlyn more properly claims that the events of "The Possession" DID happen in reality, but he was the one responsible for the altered reality. 

2) Where is there any evidence that Merlyn put Excalibur through more than one altered-reality event? 

3) How can you let Captain Britain's Union Jack outfit pass as "an art error" in Mojo Mayhem, yet use it as evidence of non-canonicity for issues #20 and 26? The obvious answer is that he simply had a spare old-style outfit that he occasionally wore. (Which is confirmed when he pulls it out in Excalibur #100, tinkers with it, and wears it some more.) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2006 05:51 pm    
By Andrew Greaves

Quote: 
>>>
1) Merlyn more properly claims that the events of "The Possession" DID happen in reality, but he was the one responsible for the altered reality. 
<<<

Not so. Roma stated, in EXC 47, that Brian had truly experienced those events. Merlyn revealed, in EXC 50, that they had taken place within Alistair's subconscious mind. 

The statements are not mutually exclusive. 


Quote: 
>>>
2) Where is there any evidence that Merlyn put Excalibur through more than one altered-reality event? 
<<<

There is none that he didn't, and it nicely explains away certain continuity discrepencies. 

Unfortunately, we can't summarily dismiss all of Lobdell's inane stories in the same fashion. 


Quote: 
>>>
3) How can you let Captain Britain's Union Jack outfit pass as "an art error" in Mojo Mayhem, yet use it as evidence of non-canonicity for issues #20 and 26? The obvious answer is that he simply had a spare old-style outfit that he occasionally wore. (Which is confirmed when he pulls it out in Excalibur #100, tinkers with it, and wears it some more.) 
<<<

In Mojo Mayhem, the uniform was the only real inconsistency. In EXC 20 and 26, we also had Widget floating around, interacting with the group. Problem is, they didn't encounter Widget until after they got back from New York. And Kitty promptly knocked it out. 

The only place those issues could have occurred was between pp. 24 and 25 of EXC 11. After Widget 'woke up', but before the whole prisoner exchange that triggered the Cross-Time Caper. Unfortunately, that raises the question that, if Kurt wasn't calling Rachel and Kitty to help oversee the prisoner exchange, what was he calling them for? 

Incidentally, I spotted another discrepency in "The Promethium Excange." In that story, the armour disrupted Kitty's phasing power, a property that she indicated was normal. 

However, when she wielded the sword and armour during Inferno, it had no such ill effect.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Aug 2006 12:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think we're both in agreement, that although The Possession "took place within Alistaire's subconscious", whatever that means, Brian still experienced the events. 

Unfortunately, that doesn't make the story "non-canon" by our definition. It sounds to me like a "virtual reality" adventure: Merlyn plugged all of Excalibur's minds into Alistaire's mind, set up a fake world in it, and put them through their paces. That's still an "appearance", since we watched the real Excalibur encountering and interacting with a fake reality. 

If you want to try to re-classify Excalibur #20, 26, and #37-39 as part of the same fake reality, we'd still list them exactly the same, since they're still technically appearances of Excalibur. 

By the way, you've pointed out a viable slot for Excalibur #20 and 26 to occur in, but you seem to have dismissed it out of hand. Why? Yes, Kurt calls Kitty and Rachel to him, and in the next scene they're joining him, but -- as you point out -- there COULD be a gap there. Kurt could have been calling them for something else, then Widget activated, then Excalibur #20 and 26 occured, and then they all went to the prisoner exchange as seen at the end of #11. It's not really that big a logic leap -- and this placement is supported by Marvel's own footnotes. Certainly altering the meaning of Kurt's line is a better solution than claiming, with no evidence to support it, that the stories all occured inside someone's subconscious. 

As for #37-39 -- just because a story has continuity and characterization discrepancies doesn't automatically make it non-canon or a fantasy world. Again, we'd need some actual evidence implying that Merlyn DID put Excalibur through more than one fantasy adventure before we go on a witch-hunt, looking for stories that don't fit 100% right, and labeling them non-canon. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Aug 2006 01:58 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Again, we'd need some actual evidence 
<<<

And boy do I wish there was some to knock out #37-39, but sadly there isn't. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2006 12:06 am    
By Andrew Greaves

To be frank, I'm not really concerned about EXC 20 and 26. They're clearly fillers, most likely written before Kitty destroyed Brian's uniform during Inferno. 

I suspect that it was open knowledge that Widget would be joining the team, but Claremont and Davies kept the exact circumstances under wraps. 

Though I am concerned with the idea that it would take long enough to negotiate a simple prisoner swap with the Nazis that they could have two seperate adventures and get comfortable with having Widget around. You could treat the costumes and such as being topical and place it after EXC 34, when Kitty rejoined the team, but that opens a whole other set of problems. 

It's that whole moronic Promethium Exchange that's the problem. The entire story has more holes in it than that Possession incident. 

- Kitty actually taking Doom's word at face value. Not to mention Rachel. The latter can be excused, but Kitty's dealt with him more than once in the past and knows full well his reputation and history. Besides, that plot was ridiculously transparent. 

- The lighthouse somehow got moved from the end of a long causeway to the mainland, to atop the cliffs overlooking the sea. Liverpool Bay must have some truly impressive tides. 

- The sword and boulder got moved some distance away from the lighthouse's door. Funny, that. 

- The sword's armour preventing Kitty from phasing. Not to mention her strange lack of combat skills. Wonder why she didn't remember that she had always been able to phase just fine while wearing the armour in the past? 

- Limbo as a spherical planetoid with the same mass as the entirety of the British Isles. Well, I suppose. I guess all those caverns and tunnels must be located within it. 

- The name 'Otherplace.' Nobody has ever used that name before or since then. At least promethium, in Marvel, seems to be the official name for soulsteel. Though the properties it possessed in the story were more akin to the DC metal of the same name. Copyright infringement? 

- No stepping disks. The single most memorable feature in Limbo, and they never make a single appearance. Doom might have been able to suppress them, but Kitty certainly wouldn't have. 

- Possession of the soulsword granting control of the demon hordes. That's a laugh. They fear it, and thus covet it, but that's all. Remember, the Soulsword was only connected with Limbo because Illyana dwelt there. She created it as the focussed expression of her arcane might. 

- The next time Limbo appeared, it was back to normal. Not the slightest indication that Darkoth had ever existed there. 

Of course, it also had some of the worst professional artwork I've ever seen, but that's beside the point. 

If the geographical inconsistencies aren't enough to kill this story's objective existence, everything else should. 

Certainly, the writers since then seem to be ignoring the story. Then again, most of them seem to be ignoring the entirety of Excalibur. 

After all, the Phoenix Force left Rachel permanently in EXC 64, and the death knells of both the warpies and the Captain Britain Corps were sounded in EXC 65.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2006 07:18 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

None of the items in your list above are valid reasons for declaring a story "not canon." 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2006 07:45 am  
By Andrew Greaves

How about "did not happen in actual reality" or "as real as a session in the Danger Room?"

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2006 08:03 am    
By JD

In both cases, the characters still live these adventures, and it has to figure in their chronologies.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2006 11:18 am    
By Andrew Greaves

Okay, so it gets slotted into the chronologies of Excalibur's members with a footnote that it was a fabrication, and did not occur in actual reality. 

As for everyone else, it's probably safe to assume, since these were Merlyn's manipulations, that their presences were part of the fabrication. 

I wouldn't think that appearances by parallel or virtual selves would count as part of a character's own chronology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2006 12:02 pm    
By jephyork
Director

1) We did NOT all just agree that these issues occured in Merlyn's fantasy-land. 

2) Footnotes aren't exactly common on the MCP -- especially ones that don't specifically relate to chronological issues. 

3) I think, based on the context of your third paragraph, that you probably meant exactly the opposite of what you said in your second paragraph. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2006 12:10 pm    
By jephyork
Director

And chew on this little nugget: Alan Davis wrote the bit telling us that "The Possession" was a fantasy sequence for one reason -- because he felt it contained way too many continuity problems to otherwise be canon. 

Presumably Alan had also read the other issues written his absence. And if he had felt that any of THEM were also too "wrong" to be canon, I'm sure he would have worked a similar explanation for them into his story. But he didn't. 

What does that tell you? It tells ME that Alan Davis considered those stories canonical. It tells me that he didn't intend his "the Possession was a fantasy" plot point to include any other stories -- JUST "the Possession", nothing else. 

And if he didn't intend it that way, I don't think we have a right to read it that way. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 11:31 am    
By Andrew Greaves

First of all, this is Merlyn we're talking about here, the master manipulator. Confirming that the whole "Possession" scenario was a dream neither cost him nor risked him a thing. 

They'd already figured out the truth anyways. 

The Soulsword, on the other hand, is the precisely the sort of weapon that magic-wielders and mystical creatures dread and fear the most. Keeping it out of circulation would be a very smart thing to do. 

Secondly, while Higgins was only a substitute writer, Lobdell was a regular. Decrying his work so openly might not have been polite. 

Finally, the biggest point against the "Promethium Exchange" being actual lies on the first frame of EXC 83. 

The narration describes two bonded wielders for the soulsword, a warrior who drew it often (Illyana) and a second who abandoned it (Kitty). No mention of anyone else, especially Darkoth. 

Considering that the whole "Soulsword Trilogy" from EXC 83 to 85 was conceived by Lobdell, who wrote the "Promethium Exchange," there seems to be little chance that the earlier appearance had been forgotten. 

Incidentally, that was probably supposed to be the real Soulsword appearing in the later trilogy, except that neither Ellis nor Raab bothered to do their research properly. Asides from slicing through spells and supernatural beings, the copy has almost nothing in common with the original. 

The original was forged by Illyana from her soul, while the copy has powers over the soul. 

Unfortunately, it's doubtful that we'll see the real Soulsword turn up any time soon. Kitty's the only one who could extract it from that boulder, and she has absolutely no inclination to do so.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 01:27 pm    
By rhod

So what you're suggesting is that Lobdell wrote the first 3-parter, decided it didn't fit, and plotted another trilogy featuring the Soulsword, giving himself the perfect opportunity to discredit the first as dream/hallucination, but then chooses not to actually state this? 

Doesn't wash.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 01:40 pm    
By Somebody

Warren Ellis wrote Soulsword Trilogy "based on an original idea by Scott Lobdell". Not even plot Lobdell, script Ellis, just "an original idea".

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 11:58 pm 
By Andrew Greaves

Quote: 
>>>
So what you're suggesting is that Lobdell wrote the first 3-parter, decided it didn't fit, and plotted another trilogy featuring the Soulsword, giving himself the perfect opportunity to discredit the first as dream/hallucination, but then chooses not to actually state this? 
<<<

Nothing quite so simplistic. 

Best guess is that Lobdell had a vague idea about what he wanted for a follow-up Soulsword story, and turned it over to Ellis for plotting. 

The narrative itself implicitly discredits Lobdell's trilogy right from the start, though the character's themselves never learn that fact.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2006 01:31 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I remember asking Warren about this story a few months after it came out (either online or at a con, I can't remember which). Basically, the creative process went something like this. 

Scott Lobdell had pitched the story, and it had been approved. Then he had to drop out for some reason. So Warren Ellis was brought in, and they sent him Scott's one-page story outline. Ellis then revised the story himself. The basic concept stayed the same, but he made some fairly major changes - for example, he introduced the character of Gravemoss to replace the Juggernaut. 

According to what Warren said, the published credit is perfectly fair. It is indeed a story written by Warren Ellis, based (loosely, but undeniably) on an original pitch by Scott Lobdell.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2006 07:49 pm    
By Andrew Greaves

So I was roughly correct about that. 

Okay, hmmm... 

Gravemoss replaced Juggernaut. That's a pretty major difference. Wonder if the differences between the soulswords were deliberate after all?

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Aug 2006 08:59 pm    
By Andrew Greaves

Did Doom forswear himself? 

In EXC 37, first he promises that the energy from the promethium would be free, but then later in the same issue he partially retracted that promise by stating that it would only be free until all other nations were dependent upon it, and would therefore be forced to swear fealty. 

Given Doom's reputation for always holding to the letter of his world, this seems to be both uncharacteristic and hopelessly naive. Another indication that this was not an actual, real world event?

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Aug 2006 09:42 pm   
By jephyork
Director

Give it up, Andrew. A villain being villainous isn't a canon-buster. 

Is it a bad story? Yes. Does that make it non-canon? No. Not unless you can show us some proof that a later writer INTENDED to boot it out of continuity. Which you can't, because none exists. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Aug 2006 07:11 am    
By Andrew Greaves

Quote: 
>>>
Not unless you can show us some proof that a later writer INTENDED to boot it out of continuity. 
<<<

What about Warren Ellis, on the first page of EXC 83, completely ignoring the earlier story altogether? 

Two wielders, one who drew the Soulsword often, and another who abandoned it. No mention at all of Doom or Darkoth. 

And since he had worked with Scott Lobdell on the basic concept, it can't be suggested that he was unaware of the earlier story.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Aug 2006 07:42 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
No mention at all of Doom or Darkoth. 
<<<

Sorry, but using lack of evidence as evidence won't work. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Aug 2006 04:26 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Oh, Warren was totally oblivious to any of the details of Soulsword continuity. He didn't even know the thing was meant to be intangible until after the issue hit the stands. There's absolutely no question of this story setting out to make some sort of intentional point about continuity.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Aug 2006 09:17 am    
By Andrew Greaves

I still have to wonder whether it was Warren or Scott who wrote that first panel, though. 

In any case, it's pretty obvious that Warren's soulsword isn't quite the same as Chris's one. Whether the original is still stuck in a boulder just outside the door to the ruins of Excalibur's lighthouse, or its in the hands of Darkoth within a now featureless dimension called Elseplace will have to wait to be dealt with sometime in the future. 

Ben was obviously just as clueless about the nature of the soulsword, considering that load of whatever that was EXC -1. Personally, I think that was just Margali playing with her daughter's head so that she could acquire a soulsword and slay everyone ahead of her on the Winding Way. 

In fact, that whole Soulsword Trilogy might have been a part of that plot, considering what happened afterwards. That she ended up with a soulsword that was apparently forged from Kitty's own mystical potential, as the Trilogy seems to suggest (compare the Soulsword Trilogy with how the original soulsword was forged in the Magik LS) made no matter for her purposes. 

Though the new soulswords ability to absorb souls and be sheathed within one's stomach are interesting. Even if it doesn't hold a candle to the original's ability to absorb, amplify, and redirect mystical energies at levels that quickly overwhelm and destroy Mjolnir. 

Incidentally, it seems that Scott was equally clueless regarding Kitty's capabilities when he was writing Excalibur. Just look at Excalibur: Air Apparent. He had Kitty engaged in combat while phasing through solid bedrock, ignoring the fact that she still needs to breath and see normally. 

All those myriad screw-ups during the Promethium Exchange might be attributed to his complete cluelessness. We'll have to wait until somebody bothers to clear things up, which might be a while considering that we haven't had a good soulsword story since Inferno.

			*	*	*

Quote: 
>>>
I still have to wonder whether it was Warren or Scott who wrote that first panel, though. 
<<<

Why would Scott script the first panel of a three-issue story, then give the rest to Warren? You're really reaching, now. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Aug 2006 11:12 am    
By Dhall

By gum, that's it, let's just declare the entire run of Excalibur non-canon and move on..... :o

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Aug 2006 12:30 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
I still have to wonder whether it was Warren or Scott who wrote that first panel, though. 
<<<

Andrew, read what I said above. SCOTT LOBDELL DID NOT WRITE ANY PANELS OF THIS STORY. He wrote a one-page story outline for a three-issue arc, which set out the basic outline of a story that Ellis revised substantially before anyone wrote anything that could be described as a plot or a script.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Aug 2006 01:32 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Andrew, had you considered the possibility that the Soulsword was such a convoluted concept that no writer besides Claremont had a good handle on what it did, where it came from or how to write it? Or, honestly, cared? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Sep 2006 05:54 am    
By Andrew Greaves

Quote: 
>>>
By gum, that's it, let's just declare the entire run of Excalibur non-canon and move on.....  
<<<

Too late. 

Considering those continuity glitches with "Excalibur: Sword of Power" and that impossible bit about the phoenix force leaving Rachel when it had already left her permanently back in EXC 64, it seems like somebody has decided that the best parts of Excalibur, which was written by Claremont or Davis, never happened.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Sep 2006 06:04 am    
By  Andrew Greaves

Quote: 
>>>
Andrew, read what I said above. SCOTT LOBDELL DID NOT WRITE ANY PANELS OF THIS STORY. He wrote a one-page story outline for a three-issue arc, which set out the basic outline of a story that Ellis revised substantially before anyone wrote anything that could be described as a plot or a script. 
<<<

Not quite what I meant. 

Rather, I wondered if those lines had been in the original outline. 

On the other hand, would it be safe to assume that Scott would have ensured that Ellis was fully aware of the current continuity status of all the factors involved, considering he wrote the last story involving the soulsword? 

If so, we can therefore conclude that the non-mention of Doom and Darkoth was deliberate and that they never wielded the Soulsword.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Sep 2006 06:59 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
If so, we can therefore conclude that the non-mention of Doom and Darkoth was deliberate and that they never wielded the Soulsword. 
<<<

Uh, no, we can't. 


watching: mst3k

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Sep 2006 07:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
On the other hand, would it be safe to assume that Scott would have ensured that Ellis was fully aware of the current continuity status of all the factors involved, considering he wrote the last story involving the soulsword? 
<<<

No. 

All Warren Ellis knew about the Soulsword was what he had gleaned from Lobdell's plot outline - essentially, that it was a magic sword that served as the macguffin for that story. And that's what he wrote. He knew the thing had appeared before, but he hadn't read the stories and he didn't know the continuity. And he was hardly going to go on a major research exercise for a last-minute fill-in job. 

So he just wrote it as a generic magic sword and figured that the editors would tell him if he'd got it wrong. He only found out that there were continuity problems when the issue saw print and fans pointed it out to him. 

This sort of thing happens all the time. It's NEVER safe to assume that the writers and editors actually know about continuity. Even the ones who care frequently just don't have the time to look it up.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Sep 2006 07:44 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
it seems like somebody has decided that the best parts of Excalibur, which was written by Claremont or Davis, never happened. 
<<<

Or more likely, it seems that a lot of the later writers are not that familiar with the continuity. Hence the continuity errors.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Sep 2006 08:22 pm    
By Andrew Greaves

You'd almost expect Marvel to keep a database including both what has been published about its characters and what has yet to be revealed. 

We'd probably see more forgotten characters show up if they did. 

Still, many of the authors seem to be pretty good about it. Having Count Nefaria finally complete his ionic metamorphosis a few years back, as Wonder Man did so long ago, was a nice trick. Even if it took a while. 

Though I thought Marvel had a continuity editor keeping track of such things. That bit with Captain Britain continues to be a pretty major gaffe.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Sep 2006 08:46 pm    
By Andrew Greaves

Quote: 
>>>
This sort of thing happens all the time. It's NEVER safe to assume that the writers and editors actually know about continuity. Even the ones who care frequently just don't have the time to look it up. 
<<<

That must be a real headache for outside chroniclers and profilers, since they have to figure out how to reconcile such problems. 

Assuming they even bother. Does MCP?

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Sep 2006 09:42 pm    
By Col_Fury

Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
You'd almost expect Marvel to keep a database including both what has been published about its characters and what has yet to be revealed.  
<<<

They're too busy missing deadlines to worry about something like that. 


Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
Still, many of the authors seem to be pretty good about it. Having Count Nefaria finally complete his ionic metamorphosis a few years back, as Wonder Man did so long ago, was a nice trick.  
<<<

But that's a pet project of the writer, not an editor handing out an assignment saying "tie up this loose end for us". 


Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
Though I thought Marvel had a continuity editor keeping track of such things.  
<<<

No, that was DC during Infinite Crisis. I don't think they still have that position, but I could be wrong. 


Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
That must be a real headache for outside chroniclers and profilers, since they have to figure out how to reconcile such problems.  
<<<

You said it. 


Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
Assuming they even bother. Does MCP? 
<<<

Um, have you read any other threads besides this one? There's too many to list where this has come up, but two cases I can think of are Civil War & the first six issues of the new Black Panther. BTS explanations help with placement, but it's not the main thrust of what people do here, but it's inevitable that such discussions will come up.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it."

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Sep 2006 05:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
You'd almost expect Marvel to keep a database including both what has been published about its characters and what has yet to be revealed. 
<<<

They don't. They never have. Even back in the heyday of continuity, they ended up using George Olshevsky's fan-produced indexes because they had none of their own. You have to bear in mind that continuity was always a fan obsession more than an editorial one. Lee and Kirby certainly never seemed to worry about it. 


Quote: 
>>>
Though I thought Marvel had a continuity editor keeping track of such things. 
<<<

Nope. It's simply not a high enough priority to justify paying somebody for it. Peter Sanderson used to act as an unofficial continuity consultant during the period when Marvel employed him as an archivist, but he was laid off during the Chapter 11 era and never replaced. 

These days, it's understandable that Marvel wouldn't see the point in paying somebody to serve that role. Plenty of fan websites are willing to do it for free. Writers who want to use old concepts tend to be hardcore fans who already know the continuity, and writers who don't know the continuity tend to be more interested in working with their own new concepts.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2006 08:50 am    
By Andrew Greaves

Another oddity about the Promethium Exchange. At the exact same time that it was being published, Dr. Doom was also crashing a gala in Avengers 332 and 333, seeking to learn about the Avengers access to dimensional travel capabilities. 

A capability he did not himself possess, beyond the temporal and cross-temporal travel afforded by his time machine. 

So how the hell did he manage to open a dimensional portal so easily?

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2006 09:25 am    
By Enda80

He found a spell in a copy of the Darkhold to access Belasco's Limbo, as stated by himself in Excalibur I#37. Since magic is less easily customized than science, that explains his continuing investigations into other methods.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2006 09:04 pm
By Andrew Greaves

Quote: 
He found a spell in a copy of the Darkhold to access Belasco's Limbo, as stated by himself in Excalibur I#37. 


No, he didn't. Doom found a treatise on the subject of promethium, Limbo, and the soulsword in a copy of the Darkhold. He's not stupid or arrogant enough to actually cast a spell from that tome, and forfeit his soul as his mother did. 

Of course, considering that the soulsword itself has absolutely nothing to do with Limbo (beyond that being where it was fashioned), and that the dimension they visited certainly wasn't the limbo described in Dante's Inferno and shown so often before and since, somebody was playing games. 

In any case, I still find it odd that Doom was making concurrent appearances in both Excalibur and the Avengers, but none of the Avengers present in either book made any reference to the other encounter. 

I mean, I know the X-teams and the Avengers tend not to share information, but both teams of Avengers not keeping each other up to date? 

Where's the free plug?!? 

Edit: Actually, since the Avengers West were present in both stories, information sharing isn't a factor. Only which actually occurred when.

Last edited by Andrew Greaves on 03 Oct 2006 04:41 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2006 12:32 am    
By Enda80

The page before, Doom notes that with a minor spell, he can slightly weaken the dimensional barriers, but that he needed Pryde to fully break through.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2006 12:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
In any case, I still find it odd that Doom was making concurrent appearances in both Excalibur and the Avengers, but none of the Avengers present in either book made any reference to the other encounter. 
<<<

Careful, counselor. You're in danger of contempt of court. 

You continue to attempt to present lack of evidence as evidence, and that just won't carry any weight in these parts. We don't see them making reference to other adventures, but that doesn't mean they didn't make the reference. And even if they didn't, that doesn't mean the story they're not referencing didn't occur; it only means they didn't reference it. 

You can't get from A to C this way. 


watching: live from

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2006 04:09 am    
By Andrew Greaves

Eh, I simply find it curious that Doom would appear simultaneously in both comics, but nobody took advantage of the opportunity to plug the other mag. 

Perhaps the creative teams simply didn't know. 

Incidentally, the Doom appearing in Excalibur would have to be the real one, since robots can't use magic. BTW, considering the armour, would this appearance go directly before Doom 2099?

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Posted: 20 Sep 2006 09:42 pm    Post subject: ACTOR Comics Presents
By Andy Holcombe

There are two Marvel stories, plus covers, in this anthology. I haven't read them, yet, but at first glance there's nothing blatanly non-canon. Spider-Man stars in one story and there's an appearance by Daredevil. The Hulk is in the second story. Both covers feature Marvel characters and are reproduced as pin-ups without the logos and text. The regular cover (by Joseph Michael Linsner) features Spider-Man and the Hulk. The Baltimore Comic-Con Edition (by Johns Romita, Sr. and Jr.)has Wolverine, Punisher, Daredevil, and Spider-Man. Plus, it's for a good cause.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2006 08:40 am    
By TroyHickman

As far as I know, I didn't contradict any established Hulk canon in the story (though bear in mind I'm more a Silver Age guy, so I'm not as familiar with recent issues). 

It was an interesting way to work, as I had to script over the already-existing pencil art, and I think it probably ended up being a different tale than Bill had intended with his plot. But it's that kind of stuff that puts the fun in funnybooks! 

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 04 Oct 2006 08:39 am    Post subject: Red Wolf note
By Enda80

The recent handbook reaffirms that Tomas Thunderhead was not an alias of Will Talltrees, but another person. His adventures took place in the 1970's absolutely. 


RED WOLF III/WILL TALLTREES 
M/CP 15/4-FB 
{A 80-FB} 
DD 258-FB 
A 80-FB 
A 80 
A 81 
M/CHL 3 
M/CHL 5 
M/CHL 6 
M/CHL 7 
H2 265 
COC 1 
COC 2-BTS 
COC 3-BTS 
H2 278 
DEF 139 
WCA2 8 
WCA2 9-FB 
M/CP 15/4 
M/SH3 2/6 
M/CP 72/4 
DRSTR3 25 
M/CP 107/4 
NOM2 10 
TB 57 
TB 58-BTS

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Dracula, Doctor Strange, Wong note
By Enda80

Dracula vs. Doctor Strange features a new page of art by Colan before page 7 of the reprint of Tomb of Dracula#45.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 11:46 am    
By SeanCurtin

The new splash page was originally published in the reprint one-shot The Wedding of Dracula. 

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
DRSTR2 14 
**WEDDING OF DRACULA 1 
TOD 45 

DRACULA/VLAD TEPES 
TOD 43 
**TOD 44-FB (attacks Wong) 
TOD 44 
DRSTR2 14 
**WEDDING OF DRACULA 1 
TOD 45 

WONG 
H2 207 
**TOD 44-FB (attacked by Dracula) 
**TOD 44 
DRSTR2 14 
**WEDDING OF DRACULA 1 
**TOD 45 
DRSTR2 15 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 12:05 pm    Post subject: Marvel Team-Up #25 [minor SPOILER]
By Somebody

Oh dear. Spider-Man makes references in this issue such that it's both before AND after ASM530 (it's a single night, not a split). 

He goes off webslinging in his old, cloth, costume with MJ asking him why and him replying that he was packing for "the trip to Washington, the one Tony's bringing me along for", saw it and got nostaglic. 

Yet, later he laments this decision, while mentioning the fact that the Iron Spider costume can morph to look like his traditional duds - a feature only of the "v2.0" costume he was given as he boarded the plane to Washington [MJ also implies in the opening scene that he's been using the red'n'gold for a while, as indeed he was in the previous arc, complete with the arms that also came with the v2.0 costume and made him hit the ceiling in suprise when he found out about them]. 

I expect the Washington trip line will have to be ignored or otherwise rationalised, buutt...

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 12:36 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Does the story specifically reference WHY Peter is going to Washington with Tony? It could be another trip than the one we were shown already. 

Plus, if he calls it simply "Washington", he might be talking about Washington state. For that matter, if he only calls it "the Washington trip" and doesn't actually say anything else on the matter, he could be simply talking a cruise on a boat called The Washington. Maybe Peter's making a joke about crossing the Delaware River. 

There's plenty of possiblities about what Peter meant, regardless of what was implicitly implied in the statement.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 03:41 pm
By Somebody

As I said... 

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
I expect the Washington trip line will have to be ignored or otherwise rationalised, buutt... 
<<<

Obviously, Kirkman was referring to the ASM530 trip (and, no, he doesn't specify directly, but then this is the writer that hung the ending to issue 21 on a pre-HoM X-Men status quo while referencing M-Day in the same issue. It'ds referring to ASM530. And continued MTU11 or so into MTU19 while having both be current-status-quo). 

The fact that it actually being so is unworkable and thus needs to be ignored/rationalised as something else is another matter entirely.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Oct 2006 07:05 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The dialogue simply refers to an unspecified trip to Washington. I'm struggling to see how it can be either of the ones depicted in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, so I think we'll just have to interpret it as a reference to some other trip we haven't seen. In fairness, I think it's possible that this is what Kirkman had in mind anyway.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Oct 2006 10:51 am
By SKleefeld
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Obviously, Kirkman was referring to the ASM530 trip  
<<<

The thing you need to remember, though, is that a good writer -- or occasionally someone like Kirkman -- can drop in references like that are distinctly meant to be read one way, but still open to interpretation. Kind of a wink and a nudge to the audience, but easily dismissed for those who are scrutinizing the story. 

Walt Simonson did that with his Dr. Doom retcon back around FF #350. He came up with an absurdly simple solution to the Kristoff/Doom battle that had been going on for several years, and simply said the real Doom was off-planet. Then he has the Thing make some comment about how Doom hadn't been that arrogant since the battle of the Baxter Building. Well, "Battle of the Baxter Building" is the story title of FF #40 and that would imply that we haven't seen the real Dr. Doom since then. But it's also a kind of general statement; the Thing wouldn't necessarily refer to that event the same way readers would -- maybe he was talking about the last time Doom showed up at the Baxter Building, or any one of the times that Doom showed up at the Baxter Building. Walt has said repeatedly since then that he specifically wrote that sequence so that readers could interpret that any way they want and essentially pick and choose which Dr. Doom appearances they wanted to consider as the real deal and which they wanted to write off as Doombots. 

So that's why we say here at the MCP that you can't impose your own intimations on a story if the facts don't allow for it. Sure, in the absence of hard facts and barring any contradictions, you can then work with the story placements on that level. I have to admit doing a fair portion of that with many of the Sentry flashbacks from the first series. But that was only AFTER I made sure that there wasn't any more definitive evidence for placements. 

Go with what the story actually says first. Then try to pick up on creator intent if you still need to refine the placement.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Oct 2006 11:11 am    
By JD

On another note : Ms. Marvel is having down time with Luke Cage, so this is pre-New Avengers 22. Actually, it seems the issue is set before Captain America goes rogue (since nobody seems to bat an eye at his appearance).

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 04 Oct 2006 06:08 am    Post subject: ASM 535 appearance
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone know the identity of the bandaged guy on the slanted restraint over the ring of fire in Negative Zone Prison Alpha, as shown in ASM 535?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2006 07:02 am    
By Mikhail

I just figured it was the Living Mummy. Whoever he is, he also showed up in the Frontline when Speedball first came to the Zone.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2006 07:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If it's the Living Mummy, then I assume the restraints are to counter his super-strength and the fire is to keep him dehydrated?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2006 09:16 pm    
By Mikhail

Makes sense to me. Only problem I see is, if Howling Commandos was canon, wasn't N'Kantu a registered SHIELD agent?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 06:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Maybe he rebelled?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 10:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Mikhail wrote: 
>>>
Makes sense to me. Only problem I see is, if Howling Commandos was canon, wasn't N'Kantu a registered SHIELD agent? 
<<<

What makes you think HOWLING COMMANDOS wasn't canon? 

(It certainly is - the Handbook says so, and it's been referred to in AGENTS OF ATLAS.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien	

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 05:00 pm  
By Mikhail

The Handbook says lots of things, and there was hesitancy about the roles of Nick Fury and Merlin based on past and present continuity. But I agree -- no real substantial reason to say its not, at the end of the day.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Oct 2006 12:40 am    
By jannepie

The Living Mummy was featured in the appendix of Civil War Files, so he is indeed involved somehow.

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 01:09 am    Post subject: 'Real-World' people
By Col_Fury

Finally, some suggested updates for 'real-world' people 

CHURCHILL, SIR WINSTON 
N 52-FB-BTS (01/18/15) 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 3 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
INH2 10-FB (11/14/40) 
{GSINV 1} 
INV 3-FB 
INV 3-BTS 
INV 4 
INV 30 
GSINV 2 (06/19/42) 
WI? 4 


ROOSEVELT, FRANKLIN DELANO 
HUMAN TORCH 3/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 
TOS 63/2 pg1-pg2pn3 
{GSINV 1-FB} pg5pn5 
TOS 63/2 pg2pn4-pg10 
CA 255 
CA: SL2 7/2 
CA 423 (spring/41) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 4 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
CA 281-FB-BTS (11/22/41) 
GSINV 1-FB pg11pn4 
INV 3-FB 
INV 5 
GSINV 2 (06/19/42) 
CA 01 (08/42) 
MSU 9 (01/45) 


LaGUARDIA, FIORELLO HENRY 
SAGASM 4 pg1-pg3pn2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/3 pg1-pg6pn7 
SAGASM 4 pg3pn3-pg3pn4 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/3 pg6pn8-pg10 


TRUMAN, HARRY 
CA 215-FB 
WI? 4 pg1-pg12 
SAGAHT 3 
WI? 4 pg13-pg16 
N@ 1/3 (07/45) 
WI? 4 pg17-pg34-BTS 


MacARTHUR, GEN. DOUGLAS 
WI? 4 


HITLER, ADOLF 
DRSTR2 51-FB 
INV 36-FB (1932) 
DRSTR3 7/2 
TOS 66/2-FB 
CA: ME-FB (1939) 
HUMAN TORCH 3/2 
SAGASM 5 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2/2 
TOS 67/2 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22 
GSINV 1-FB 
SGTF 1 
SGTF 5-BTS 
INV@ 1-FB 
INV@ 1-BTS 
M/TIO@ 1-FB 
INV 16 
INV 17 
INV 18 
INV 19 
INV 20 
INV 21 
SGTF 14 
INV 32 
INV 33 
GSINV 2-BTS (06/19/42) 
TRUTH 6-FB 
SVTU 17-FB pg14pn1-pg14pn2 
FF3 52-FB-BTS 
FURY 1 
CA@ 13-FB (04/45) 
SPIDER-MAN: FEAR ITSELF-FB (04/30/45) 
SAGAHT 3 pg1-pg4pn4 (04/30/45) 
WI? 4 pg1-pg6pn1 
SAGAHT 3 pg5pn1 
WI? 4 pg6pn2-pg6pn6 
YOUNG MEN 24-FB 
SVTU 17-FB pg14pn3-pg14pn4 
See Hate-Monger 
(the majority of M/TIO@ 1 was an alternate time-line, but the FlashBack occurs before the divergence point,(Thing from the future arrives) so it should still 'count') 

STALIN, JOSEF 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
INV 32 
INV 33 
CA@ 13-FB (04/45) 
N@ 1/2 
See Coldsteel 
(Hitler gets a seperate listing for Hate-Monger, so I'll suggest the same for Stalin with Coldsteel) 

MUSSOLINI, BENITO 
HUMAN TORCH 3/2 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 


GOEBBELS, JOSEF 
SAGASM 5 
TRUTH 6-FB 


GOERING, HERMANN 
HUMAN TORCH 3/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2/2 


ROMMEL, GEN. ERWIN 
SGTF 6-FB 
SGTF 6 
INV 23-FB-BTS 
INV 23-BTS 
INV 25
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 05:53 am    
By Enda80

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Finally, some suggested updates for 'real-world' people 

STALIN, JOSEF 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
INV 32 
INV 33 
CA@ 13-FB (04/45) 
N@ 1/2 
See Coldsteel 
(Hitler gets a seperate listing for Hate-Monger, so I'll suggest the same for Stalin with Coldsteel) 
<<< 


Hmmm....perhaps since Stalin has relatively few appearances they feel free to bundle it into Coldsteel.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Oct 2006 03:08 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Nobody is going to look up Stalin under the heading of Coldsteel. He should be listed under his real name for the sake of usefulness.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Oct 2006 11:54 pm    
By Col_Fury

To be fair, an interested person could punch 'Stalin' into the search function and discover he's listed under Coldsteel. It just makes more sense to me that Stalin's as Stalin appearances be seperate from his Coldsteel appearances. 

My question is, what criteria do we use to determine which character gets a split listing under different code names? 

For Example: 
Captain America IV is split from Grand Director, but Bucky III is together with Nomad, Cap II is with Spirit of '76, & Cap III is with Patriot. 

Is it that my examples of Cap II, Cap III, & Bucky III started off with so few catalogued appearances, and as more were added it just never got hived off? Or is it because Cap IV turned into a villain as the Grand Director? Or is it... Just Because? 

Just curious, no critique intended. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2006 12:37 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
My question is, what criteria do we use to determine which character gets a split listing under different code names? 
<<<

There hasn't been a criterium. 


watching: cold case files

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2006 02:49 pm    
By Col_Fury

Cool.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Posted: 08 Oct 2006 08:11 pm    Post subject: Mr. Hyde note
By Enda80

Nextwave#6 establishes that Henry Jekyll did exist on Earth-616. So that would actually make Calvin Zabo the second Mr. Hyde.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2006 10:34 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Has Henry Jekyll-616 ever appeared on-panel, using that alias? 

If no, proposal rejected. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2006 04:38 am    
By Enda80

He appeared in Supernatural Thrillers#4. Note that the Handbook DE#16-17 gave a list of canonical Earth-616 titles, and it included Supernatural Thrillers. 

The Heap's entry stated that #1 took place on Earth-616.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2006 11:14 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Nextwave#6 establishes that Henry Jekyll did exist on Earth-616. So that would actually make Calvin Zabo the second Mr. Hyde. 
<<<

Wait. I missed that -- could you point to the page/panel numbers in question?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2006 12:48 pm    
By Enda80

http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nw056cm.jpg

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2006 01:27 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Thanks for posting that. 

Continuing my theme of skepticism for the day, though, I don't know that we can conclude Mr. Hyde's 616 existence from the rantings of a clearly deranged individual. I mean, even without the context of the whole story -- which clearly show Dirk Anger to be WAAAAY overdue for a straight-jacket -- he still does an awful lot in two panels to suggest he's not all there, therefore making many of his statements unreliable. 

Further, assuming his statements are indeed true, his comment about Jekyll is actually pretty vague. It's unclear if the extracted cells were mutated before or after they were removed Jekyll. In fact, I wouldn't put it past Dirk to find some typical, ordinary, modern guy named Henry Jekyll, kill him, and then extract and mutate cells from him just so he could claim that they came from the Henry Jekyll. 

Finally, I don't have Supernatural Thrillers but my understanding is that it is simply a re-telling of the Stevenson original. Since Calvin Zabo read the original, knowing it to be fiction, and felt that it could become reality, I'm inclined to view Supernatural Thrillers #4 as non-canonical despite the title, on the whole, being accept as canon. Keep in mind that a good portion of that title was devoted to Living Mummy stories, and included several Timely/Atlas reprints. 

Personally, I think there are too many leaps of faith here to justify at this time calling Henry Jekyll a historical person in the Marvel Universe, and that he had an alter-ego named Mr. Hyde as depicted in the original Stevenson novel.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2006 01:55 pm    
By Enda80

In Hulk I#368, Calvin Zabo extensively discusses 
Stevenson's novel. He notes that Stevenson portrayed 
Hyde as short. 

Zabo notes that Stevenson's Hyde book was published before 1887 
(i.e. w/in 15 years of Darwin's book The Descent of Man). Zabo's discussion seems to indicate a fictional Jekyll/Hyde. Of course, Peter Parker once thought Fu Manchu was fictional, and received a rude surprise........ 

Per JM (Jean-Marc Lofficier) 

In JIM 99, Calcin Zabo says: "For years, I had been fascinated by the 
tale of DR JEKYLL AND MR HYDE! I had always felt it was MORE than just 
an imaginary story..." 

And in the balloon itself, he adds (referring to the transformation): 
"...just as happened to Dr. Jekyll." 

Now it's rather ambiguous and certainly refers to RL Stevenson's tale 
(Stevenson's name is mentioned on the next page) but one might read it 
as if Stevenson was actually writing, and disguising, real events ( la 
Philip Jos Farmer's Wold Newton), not merely making it up [as did Mary Shelley, Bram Stoker, HP Lovecraft, et al. of Earth-616; CTB I#141-142 and elsewhere confirm a real Cthulhu for E-616's history). 


It's your call, anyway. 

JM (Jean-Marc, not me) 

In Hulk I#335, that issue, Gil Jeffers watched a Jekyll and Hyde 
movie, and we saw a few scenes from it on his TV. Since the presence of Frankenstein and vampire Dracula movies exist on Earth-616 (see The Iron Manual and Skein's origin, as well as Louis Belski), this would not preclude a real Hyde. 

(By the way, Jeffers also rented Friday the 13th, 
Nightmare on Elm Street, and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2006 04:58 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Per JM (Jean-Marc Lofficier) 

In JIM 99, Calcin Zabo says: "For years, I had been fascinated by the 
tale of DR JEKYLL AND MR HYDE! I had always felt it was MORE than just 
an imaginary story..." 

And in the balloon itself, he adds (referring to the transformation): 
"...just as happened to Dr. Jekyll." 

Now it's rather ambiguous and certainly refers to RL Stevenson's tale 
(Stevenson's name is mentioned on the next page) but one might read it 
as if Stevenson was actually writing, and disguising, real events ( la 
Philip Jos Farmer's Wold Newton), not merely making it up [as did Mary Shelley, Bram Stoker, HP Lovecraft, et al. of Earth-616; CTB I#141-142 and elsewhere confirm a real Cthulhu for E-616's history). 


It's your call, anyway. 

JM (Jean-Marc, not me) 
<<<

It sounds like that was very deliberately written so that it would not stand as an arguement either for or against a real-life Jekyll. I don't think this helps either way and should be ignored as "evidence." 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
In Hulk I#335, that issue, Gil Jeffers watched a Jekyll and Hyde 
movie, and we saw a few scenes from it on his TV. Since the presence of Frankenstein and vampire Dracula movies exist on Earth-616 (see The Iron Manual and Skein's origin, as well as Louis Belski), this would not preclude a real Hyde. 

(By the way, Jeffers also rented Friday the 13th, 
Nightmare on Elm Street, and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.) 
<<<

As you just pointed out, some movies are based on real events and some are entirely fictional. So, again, this isn't evidence of anything one way or another. 

I'm not saying that there's no possibility of there having been a real Dr. Jekyll in the Marvel Universe that really created some serum that turned him into Mr. Hyde. But all you're doing, Enda80, is just throwing out random scenes that mention either Jekyll or Hyde. Calvin Zabo showed us early on that, yes, there was a Robert Lewis Stevenson in the Marvel Universe and, yes, he wrote a story about Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Nothing you've mentioned so far does anything to add to or change that. 

Show us Dr. Doom travelling back in time to meet Jekyll/Hyde. Show us Zabo discovering Stevenson's personal correspondence with Jekyll. Show us Hank McCoy stumbling on Jekyll's notes in an old library. Show us Tony Stark digging up Jekyll's grave so he can clone more psychos. 

All you've given us so far are the ambiguous rantings of an insane character, a writer who acknowledges that a small passage can be interpreted multiple ways, and a re-telling of Stevenson's original. That's not really anything to work with.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2006 03:42 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If ever there was a throwaway line that couldn't be regarded as a reliable source, it's a comment by Dirk Anger - or, come to think of it, pretty much anyone - in an issue of NEXTWAVE. The book has an intentionally anarchic disregard for continuity; it'd be crazy to place any weight on the details.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2006 01:32 pm    
By Enda80

>>>
As you just pointed out, some movies are based on real events and some are entirely fictional. So, again, this isn't evidence of anything one way or another. 
<<<

Huh......oh well, I just mentioned the "By the way, Jeffers also......" part since I just pasted this from elsewhere and didn't think of trimming, but Mr. Kleefeld's point stands. I seriously doubt that these "neo-classic" New Line Cinema* characters will be brought into Earth-616, since DC/Wildstorm has them now; even Pinhead did not make it in when New World owned both MVL and Hellraiser. 

*When the issue came out, New Line only owned FK.

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Posted: 13 Apr 2006 03:09 pm    Post subject: Richard Rory in She-Hulk 15
By scottandrewhutchins

Richard Rory's appearance in S-H 15 is currently omitted. He appears on pages 11-14. I found the issue loose in a thrift shop today and found out. 

Now I wonder if he is in 18 or 23.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2006 08:44 am    
By Starman

Just checked the issues, and no, he isn't.
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 10 Oct 2006 09:55 pm    Post subject: Wolverine / Nick Fury
By ashram316

The Dazzler listing has W/NF occuring before DAZ 38, but the Wolverine listing has it after. I am confused.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2006 09:48 am    
By ashram316

I went back and read the issues yesterday, and W/NF should go after Dazzler 38. Dzzler 38 shows her training with the X-Men in a flashback, and then dueling with Wolverine and Colossus. At the beginning of the duel, both X-Men react to Dazzler's new costume, which she is wearing during her brief appearance in W/NF.

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject: placement of MTU 135
By cnowlin

random note that Storm is not sporting her mohawk look in MTU 135, though the chronology places it after UX 175 

somewhere between UX 171 and 172 perhaps (it needs to be after encounter with Morlocks in 170) 

perhaps 

Storm 

UX 171 
NM 7 
MTU 135* 
W4 
UX 172 

though it could just as easily fit before NM 7 as far as I can tell

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:32 am    
By Dhall

You're quite right, Storm has her old hairstyle in this issue. The difficulty is that Logan is also at the mansion in MTU 135. It also has to come after (or during) UX 171, and prior to Storm leaving for Japan in 172-173. This needs to be researched further.....

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

For those who are wondering, the sequence of appearances comes from Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #3. Not that it makes the sequence right, but it explains why M/TU 135 is after UX 175 in the MCP.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 10 Oct 2006 07:28 pm    Post subject: Master List of Alternate Earths?
By wolframbane

Outside of books like OHOTMU Alternate Earths, is there a website online that contains a 'master list' of official alternate Earth designations (ie -98, -616, etc).

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2006 01:45 pm 
By Enda80

check out marvunapp.com 
Marvel.com claims they will soon have one

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2006 09:50 am    
By wolframbane

Found one. Its on wiki too so its often updated. Also found one for the DC Multiverse for compariosn. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_(Marvel_Comics) 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_(DC_Comics)

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 08 Oct 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: When did Living Monolith meet Mr. Sinister?
By wolframbane

Living Monolith first manifested his power when he fired an energy blast after the death of his wife in Marvel Graphic Novel #17. Did this happen before Sinister genetically spliced his DNA with Alex Summer's in Uncanny X-Men #376?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2006 08:47 am    
By Mikhail

Yes. Immediately afterwards, Apocalypse approached him in a disguised form and offered him leadership of the Living Pharoah cult. At this point Abdol was engineered by Sinister (at Apocalypse's request) to be linked to Alex Summers.

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 07:12 am    Post subject: Civil War Files
By Paul O'Brien
Director

One initial observation, based on skimming it over lunch - the New Warriors entry claims that Power Pack are still active in New York. And then goes on to expressly point out that this contradicts Julie's appearances in RUNAWAYS, describing that as "a mystery for another day." 

This seems to be the first serious attempt to suggest that recent POWER PACK minis might be canon after all, although there are a number of other continuity problems with them - for example, the Pack don't seem to recognise characters that they've met before. It's also pretty clear from contemporary interviews with the creators that those minis weren't meant to be canon, but if they've done well in digest format, I suppose that might be revisited.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 08:17 am    
By Somebody

Well, there's the spinning-out-of-Civil-War Loners [f.k.a. Excelsior] miniseries which features Julie as a prominent character ("You've got Julie Power, who is the Princess... ", "It's the five members we saw at the end of issue #6, which are Julie Power/Lightspeed..." "NRAMA: "Why pick "Loners?" CBC: Each of the characters is kind of a solo character. They were each on a team. Julie power left Power Pack."). 


And, as you say, the creators of the Pack minis have made it clear they don't see them as canon.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 09:25 am    
By jephyork
Director

And yet, the editor of CW Files green-lit that text. 

We'll see where this all goes soon enough, I assume ... both in Loners, Spider-Man/Power Pack, and possibly also in Civil War itself. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 09:29 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I wouldn't expect Civil War to pick up on it - Power Pack are mentioned only in passing, in a section which rounds up what the surviving ex-New Warriors are up to.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 12:38 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Of perhaps more immediate interest, CIVIL WAR FILES also contains a definitive list of everyone who's in the expanded Thunderbolts. All of these guys - except, presumably, the inanimate robot - are apparently now official team members:- 

Ajaxis (the unnamed Lava Man - apparently a new character) 
Aqueduct 
Asylum, Coronary & Pretty Persuasions of Psionex 
Atlas 
Baron Zemo 
Batroc's Brigade (Batroc, Machete III and Zaran) 
The Beetles (identified as "Beetle 1", "Beetle 2" and "Beetle 3") 
Blacklash II & Whiplash II 
Blizzard 
Bloodstrike & Smiling Tiger of the Folding Circle (but not the others) 
Boomerang 
Bushmaster, Death-Adder, King Cobra & Rattler of the Serpent Society 
Dr Octopus 
Eel II 
Fixer 
Joystick 
Killer Shrike 
MACH-IV 
Mongoose 
Moonstone 
The Over-Mind 
Ox & Snake Marston of the Enforcers 
The Porcupine II 
Primus 
Quicksand 
Radioactive Man 
A remote-controlled Red Ronin robot (!) 
Slyde (deprogrammed by SHIELD after Enemy of the State) 
Smuggler II 
Songbird 
Swordsman III 
Tatterdemalion 
Texas Twister 
The U-Foes (the usual four) 
Unicorn II 
Vermin 
Whirlwind
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 01:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I wouldn't expect Civil War to pick up on it - Power Pack are mentioned only in passing, in a section which rounds up what the surviving ex-New Warriors are up to. 
<<<

I should have been more clear: I was referring to "Civil War: Young Avengers & Runaways" -- the writer made an oblique reference to Julie Power potentially appearing in that series. 

By the way, the CW Files' reference to Power Pack being active in NYC could be referring to their appearance in New Thunderbolts #6 -- not necessarily the minis. 

(My own personal solution to Julie Power's cross-coastal appearances, is that -- as revealed in PP2 #4 -- she can teleport.) 


Quote: 
>>>
CIVIL WAR FILES also contains a definitive list of everyone who's in the expanded Thunderbolts. 
<<<

Are any of the folks shown as prisoners at the end of #103 *not* in this gathering? I thought we had identified the Mimic and the Blob, but I don't see them on this list. What became of them -- or, did they turn out to be different characters entirely? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 02:19 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Are any of the folks shown as prisoners at the end of #103 *not* in this gathering? I thought we had identified the Mimic and the Blob, but I don't see them on this list. What became of them -- or, did they turn out to be different characters entirely? 
<<<

Zemo said that some of them might resist Fixer's brainwas... sorry, choose not to be a Thunderbolt when all was said and done. Presumably those two did so. 

[Alternatively, the X-Office didn't notice this until the art was done and had a hairy canary since neither was on the 198 list and Blob was out-and-out depowered; and promptly forbade them to use them beyond that [And yes, I know they've been back & forth on whether Mimic is a mutant]]

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 08:00 pm    
By adhram316

Okay, so does this mean that Blob has been 'repowered' in the eyes of Marvel, or does this chalk up to an art error? I ask this because it effects Blob's chronology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 11:40 pm    
By JLH

Maybe he was wearing a fat suit? I can see (or could, since it's canceled) the X-Men Unlimited story now telling this tale, "Big Blobba's House"!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2006 08:29 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
so does this mean that Blob has been 'repowered' in the eyes of Marvel, or does this chalk up to an art error? 
<<<

Neither -- presumably the T-Bolts just captured a depowered Blob. He was drawn with the folds of hanging flesh that he's had since M-Day. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2006 10:40 am    
By rhod

Did I miss something? Surely the Blob's size isn't actually his mutant power, it's his ability to root himself to the ground? So he should be a fat guy anyway if he loses his powers?
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2006 02:22 pm    
By ashram316

I agree with you. He probably should be a fat guy with no powers, but somehow, he lost all of his weight when he was depowered after House of M. (See the Decimation One-Shot and the Generation M mini)

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Sep 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Civil War Files: guide to chronology? suitable for MCP list?
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Civil War Files is presented as a group of dossiers prepared by Tony Stark and presented to the president as part of his "daily intelligence briefing." Can the content (not the format as a comic book) of Civil War Files be interpreted as a canonical MU document actually presented by Stark at a given moment in MU time? Or is Civil War Files a secondary source akin to handbooks and the like, with the first-person treatment merely a form of storytelling by the writers? 

If it is the former -- an actual MU document by Stark -- can it be used as a guide to Civil War chronology? Perhaps we could pinpoint the moment in which Stark presented this set of dossiers to the president. All CW events noted in Civil War Files would have to occur before the dossiers were presented. If CW events are not mentioned in Files, then it would mean: 
1) those events occurred after Stark submitted the dossiers; or, 
2) those events occurred before Stark submitted the dossiers, but Stark didn't know about them; or, 
3) those events occurred before Stark submitted the dossiers and Stark knew about them, but chose not to report on them 

I haven't yet compiled a list of events noted and not noted in Civil War Files, but I can report, for example, that: 

Sally Floyd is "currently en route to a SHIELD interrogation facility" following her and Neil Crawford's arrest at the end of CW:FL 5 

Johnny Storm is "pretty much up and around" after coming out of his coma in CW 3. 

Yet, there's no mention of Thor...except that he's listed as an "agent of SHIELD" in the Civil War Files Appendix (last page), which I don't interpret as part of Stark's report. Nor is there mention of the death in CW 4 at Thor's hand (possibly because of spoiler issues). 

So how are we to handle Civil War Files (which I would assume has up-to-date information, considering that the president is briefed "daily")? Does placing its submission by Stark at a specific point in time hold up given what we know of CW chronology? Does it actually help with CW chronology? 

And if we interpret the content of CWF as the work of Tony Stark, does it merit inclusion in Iron Man's chronology in the MCP? I don't believe writings have been included in character chronologies. We treat writings differently from dialog and thought balloons, but I assume that if a reader is interested in Iron Man, s/he'd want to know what Stark was thinking when he compiled these dossiers. 

Thoughts?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Sep 2006 05:15 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Yet, there's no mention of Thor...except that he's listed as an "agent of SHIELD" in the Civil War Files Appendix (last page), which I don't interpret as part of Stark's report. Nor is there mention of the death in CW 4 at Thor's hand (possibly because of spoiler issues). 
<<<

It was originally written to be released after CW4, and when CW4 was pushed back and CWF was not, it recieved a (by all accounts) hasty rewrite to yank all the now-spoiler material out, which in turn necessitated the removal of any material relating to the actual events of the CW3 ending.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Sep 2006 09:08 pm    
By Col_Fury

So they re-edited the Civil War Files one-shot to not spoil anything in Civil War 4, and yet Civil War 4 is to see the shelves one week after Civil War Files comes out? What kind of sense does that make? They couldn't have just sat on it for one or two weeks?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Sep 2006 09:14 pm    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
So they re-edited the Civil War Files one-shot to not spoil anything in Civil War 4, and yet Civil War 4 is to see the shelves one week after Civil War Files comes out? What kind of sense does that make? They couldn't have just sat on it for one or two weeks? 
<<<

No it doesn't make any sense, buutt... http://www.comicboards.com/tbolts/view.php?rpl=060901092932 

[Oh, and Fabian saying "I haven't worried too much about the roster of the TBolts army myself, so I would recommend most of you don't either. Many of the aquisitions were as much as dare on my part when I bet Molly Lazer when plotting #104 that I could find 50 characters other people weren't going to be using during Civil War)." popped up when I was looking for that post - http://www.comicboards.com/tbolts/view.php?rpl=060820143800 - I think that explains the deactivated Red Ronin robot ]

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Sep 2006 09:40 pm    
By Col_Fury

That's just... crazy. 

And to think, if someone upstairs would have just thought: 

"Delaying a files one-shot won't affect it's sales in the least. Let's delay it by two weeks so all these handbook writers can get some sleep this weekend. I mean, hell, we're only putting out two more issues of Amazing Spider-Man in the next 4 or 5 months, so what's a delay on a one-shot that the same amount of people will by one way or the other?" 

Getting back on track: 
Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
And if we interpret the content of CWF as the work of Tony Stark, does it merit inclusion in Iron Man's chronology in the MCP? I don't believe writings have been included in character chronologies. We treat writings differently from dialog and thought balloons, but I assume that if a reader is interested in Iron Man, s/he'd want to know what Stark was thinking when he compiled these dossiers.  
<<<

What did we decide to do with the New Avengers: Most Wanted Files? Didn't the subject come up of giving every character who wrote an entry a BTS? If so, I'd say give Iron Man a BTS for this one.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Sep 2006 10:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I agree; characters whose writings appear should generally receive BTS appearances. I also agree that Handbooks that are presented like this, as "actual MU documents" -- like "New Avengers: Most Wanted Files", "X-Men: the 198 Files", "Secret War: From the Files of Nick Fury", "Marvel Monsters: From the Files of Ulysses Bloodstone", etc. -- should be taken as presented, as authentic MU documents, instead of disregarded as merely "tricked-out handbooks". (I also believe that "Marvel Saga" should count as an authentic recording made by the Watcher, but that's another story.) 

So, by all means, if we can make it fit -- let's try to make it fit. 

Oh, and Col_Fury, I suspect Marvel wanted to get "Civil War Files" out before CW #4 just because of #4's delay -- they likely wanted to put out as much as they could to tide fans over while they waited. (Didn't they just throw together a "Marvel Must-Haves" of ASM #529-532 as well?) I'm guessing that they wanted to get it out weeks ago, but the rewrites caused delays. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Sep 2006 02:57 am    
By Col_Fury

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I suspect Marvel wanted to get "Civil War Files" out before CW #4 just because of #4's delay -- they likely wanted to put out as much as they could to tide fans over while they waited. (Didn't they just throw together a "Marvel Must-Haves" of ASM #529-532 as well?) I'm guessing that they wanted to get it out weeks ago, but the rewrites caused delays.  
<<<

Yeah, you're probably right. 

We'll probably have to wait until Wednesday for Civil War #4 to see how that turns out, but at the earliest CWF would have to be between pages of Civil War #3, if only becasue of Johnny. And where do we have CW:FL 5 currently?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Sep 2006 08:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
I agree; characters whose writings appear should generally receive BTS appearances. I also agree that Handbooks that are presented like this, as "actual MU documents" -- like "New Avengers: Most Wanted Files", "X-Men: the 198 Files", "Secret War: From the Files of Nick Fury", "Marvel Monsters: From the Files of Ulysses Bloodstone", etc. -- should be taken as presented, as authentic MU documents, instead of disregarded as merely "tricked-out handbooks".  
<<<

Then we should treat DAILY BUGLE CIVIL WAR NEWSPAPER SPECIAL #1 the same way. In this MU document, we have articles written by Kat Farrell, Ken Ellis, J. Jonah Jameson, Jennifer Walters-Jameson, and a number of Bugle correspondents who may never have made MU appearances. In addition, the articles feature quotations from JJ Jameson, Baxter Bigelow (whose last appearance was in AAF 15!), Tony Stark, Mariam Sharpe, Reed Richards, Janet Van Dyne, Joe Quesada, Misty Knight, Carol Danvers, Valerie Cooper, Frenchie Duchamp, Jamie Madrox, Anastasia Fernands (SHIELD press secretary), and others. 

I'm not sure whether all these features were supposed to have appeared in the SAME issue of the Daily Bugle in the MU, or if they're just packaged together for "our benefit." The Special does look like a Daily Bugle issue; it features the "Parker" You're Fired!" headline and, FWIW, has a date of "Wednesday, July 19, 2006." 


Quote: 
>>>
We'll probably have to wait until Wednesday for Civil War #4 to see how that turns out, but at the earliest CWF would have to be between pages of Civil War #3, if only becasue of Johnny. And where do we have CW:FL 5 currently? 
<<<

I haven't posted an update in a while because I want to wait until I see the outcome of the battle in CW 4. A lot of placement hinges on this. 

To answer your question, I have CW:FL 5 occurring the same day as Johnny's revival from his coma and the diner scene in CW 3. It's difficult to wedge CWF after these events and before the battle with Thor without using the "two fires scenario" or other awkward chronological hocus-pocus. But again, CW 4 will give us more information to draw some conclusions.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Sep 2006 08:22 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Then we should treat DAILY BUGLE CIVIL WAR NEWSPAPER SPECIAL #1 the same way. In this MU document, we have articles written by Kat Farrell, Ken Ellis, J. Jonah Jameson, Jennifer Walters-Jameson, and a number of Bugle correspondents who may never have made MU appearances. In addition, the articles feature quotations from JJ Jameson, Baxter Bigelow (whose last appearance was in AAF 15!), Tony Stark, Mariam Sharpe, Reed Richards, Janet Van Dyne, Joe Quesada, Misty Knight, Carol Danvers, Valerie Cooper, Frenchie Duchamp, Jamie Madrox, Anastasia Fernands (SHIELD press secretary), and others. 

I'm not sure whether all these features were supposed to have appeared in the SAME issue of the Daily Bugle in the MU, or if they're just packaged together for "our benefit." The Special does look like a Daily Bugle issue; it features the "Parker" You're Fired!" headline and, FWIW, has a date of "Wednesday, July 19, 2006."  
<<<

I don't know...part of me feels we should draw a distinction between a newspaper that was being distributed free inside most comic book stores, (used as a promotional tool), and a book like "Civil War Files" which is published in the regular comic book format... 

As you mentioned, it may be difficult to imagine all of those events in that Daily Bugle newspaper occuring on the same day, (and I don't see how we would could reconcile a newspape "packeged together for 'our benefit'" with an issue of the Daily Bugle published in the Marvel Universe).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Sep 2006 10:36 am    
By jephyork
Director

Didn't we have a similar problem with the House of M Newspaper Special? In that all the articles couldn't possibly have occured on the same day? 

I guess, expanding on what I said before -- I feel that all these Handbook Specials should be treated as canon MU documents -- *unless it's chronologically impossible to do so*. Meaning, if they fit into pre-existing chronology, great. If they can be made to fit with one or two minor tweaks to the current chronology, great. But if they require *major* changes, uncomfortable changes, or they just plain don't fit -- chuck 'em. 

And I'm with Kevin in feeling that the Newspaper Specials are somehow "less authentic" than Handbook Specials. Don't ask me why.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Sep 2006 11:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, in the HOUSE OF M newspaper, every article ended with a plug for the comic where the story was continued, which pretty much disqualified it from being an "authentic" Marvel Universe newspaper.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Sep 2006 04:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Same thing with the CIVIL WAR newspaper special. I interpret those plugs as editorial notes, not part of the "actual" articles written by MU characters. 

I don't interpret the DAILY BUGLE CIVIL WAR NEWSPAPER SPECIAL as an actual issue of the Daily Bugle -- heck, there wouldn't be a Marvel indicia in it if it were. But are the articles presented therein "actual" MU documents that appeared in various issues of the Daily Bugle? Can we envision the SPECIAL as the real-world Marvel's compilation of selected Daily Bugle features dealing with the Civil War? 


Quote: 
>>>
I don't know...part of me feels we should draw a distinction between a newspaper that was being distributed free inside most comic book stores, (used as a promotional tool),  
<<<

The Civil War Newspaper Special cost 50 cents and was solicited with regular comics. I'd certainly draw a distinction between this product and such promotional products as cards and posters.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Sep 2006 05:05 pm    
By Col_Fury

The House of M Pulse newspaper special also had a cover price of 50 cents, but it was also handed out free in most shops. It also had character interviews, and articles written by Hank Pym, etc. 

As for trailing the comics in the paper itself, I think Jeph said it best here: 
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The Pulse HoM edition isn't even on the same level as a Handbook -- it refers to the comics it's trailing right in the text itself. At least the Handbooks try to pretend that they're describing real events, and leave the mention of comic titles and issue numbers for the bibliography.  
<<<

I think the Bugle special is the same thing as the Pulse special, a clever house ad, sold seperately.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Sep 2006 02:52 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yeah, I regard them as glorified house ads. I don't think we need to go overboard about doling out BTS appearances for this sort of thing - I mean, are we going to give the Xandarian Worldmind a BTS appearance in every single Annihilation issue just because it supposedly wrote the character profiles at the back?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Sep 2006 12:19 am    
By Col_Fury

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
are we going to give the Xandarian Worldmind a BTS appearance in every single Annihilation issue just because it supposedly wrote the character profiles at the back?  
<<<

I'd say yes. If we'd give it to Tony Stark, why not the Worldmind? 

And now that you mention it, since the Nova Corps Files 'corrected' parts of those issue profiles, should that follow all the individual issues?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2006 06:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

After pouring over Civil War Files, I have to conclude that, as presented, the pages therein have to describe CW at different points in time. I see this issue as a compilation of dossiers (and a cover letter) submitted to the president at specific moments throughout CW (or at least a portion thereof). If these reports by Stark are to count in Iron Man's chronology, I think we'll have to pepper the chronology with CWF "appearances" during CW. If folks agree with this assessment, I can attempt to plot out specific pages of CWF in the CW chronology, combining pages and minimizing the number of CWF entries as much as possible.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2006 03:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here are my notes concerning each page of Civil War Files, with clues that help place each dossier that Stark submits to the president over the course of the Civil War. Before I cluster these dossiers and pepper the clusters throughout the Civil War chronology, I thought I should run these notes by you all to see if there are additional clues or corrections. 


CIVIL WAR FILES (1) 
One day. Stark prepares a cover letter to dossiers he intends to send to the president. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (2) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Arachne , who remains on the run with the Shroud, so it must be between MSM2 6 (11-21) and MSM2 7. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (3-4) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Atlantis. He notes that Namor will stop at nothing to lay his hands on Nitro, so it must be before W3 45 (1-22). He also notes that the Sentrys slaying of Attuma in SENTRY2 1 was weeks ago. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (5) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Avengers. He numbers Spider-Woman among those who seem have joined Cap, so it must be after A4 23 (1-15). He notes that even Peter may be having second thoughts about registration, so it must be before ASM 535 (3-4). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (6) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Bishop. He notes that Bishop and his allies (supported by a team of O*N*E agents and Sentinel robots) have pinpointed the 198s location in an abandoned SHIELD bunker in the Nevada Desert and have deployed to reacquire them. I will keep you posted on their progress  thus it must be between CW:X 2 (13-22) and CW:X 3. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (7) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Cable. Stark notes that Cable is currently assisting Captain Americas rebels, so it must be after the first time Nathan was seen with the Resistance in CW 3 (10-16). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (8) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Cage. Cage is a wanted man, so it must be after A4 22 (21). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (9) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Captain America. Cap is a fugitive, so it must be after CW 1 (29-31). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (10-11) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the CSA. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (12) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Daredevil. The new Daredevils identity is unknown. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (13) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Deadpool. He notes that Deadpool has been drafted as a bounty hunter to bring in heroes who reject registration, so it must be after C&DP 30 (1-9), and since no mention is made of the relinquishing of those duties, it must be before C&DP 32. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (14) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Falcon. Falcon is a wanted man. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (15) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Sally Floyd. He notes that Sally and Neil Crawford have been arrested and are currently en route to a SHIELD interrogation facility, so it must be between CW:FL 5 and CW:FL 6 (1-5). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (16) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Goliath. He does not note Goliaths death, so it must be before CW 3 (10-16). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (17) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Green Goblin. He notes that Osborn is on a shorter leash at Stark Tower and is expected to serve as a controlled operative, so it must be after CW:FL 2/3. Stark refers to Peter Parker as his friend, so it must be before ASM 535 (3-4). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (18) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Hercules. Hercules is a wanted man, and Stark mentions our program with the gods. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (19) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Human Torch. Stark notes that Johnny Storm is already pretty much up and around; we anticipate having him back with the team in no time  so it must be after CW 3 (7-9), probably before CW 4 (17-19), and definitely before CW 4 (19-20). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (20) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Invisible Woman. Stark notes that Sueseems to be experiencing strong doubts with regard to her role in the conflict and has an injured brother to care for  it may be between CW 4 (9-14) and CW 4 (17-19). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (21) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on himself. Stark notes that we have not yet been able to apprehend the bulk of the vigilantes in Captain Americas cell, so it must be before the battle in CW 3 (10-16). The arrest of the Typeface/Battlestar cell was recent, so it must be shortly after CW:FL 4 (8-9). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (22) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Mr. Fantastic. Stark notes his wifes recent displays of sympathy towards the anti-registrants, so it must be after CW 4 (9-14). Stark notes that he emphasize the need to keep his [Reeds] family safe in the Baxter Building, so it must be before CW 4 (19-20). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (23) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Ms. Marvel. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (24) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Moon Knight. Stark notes that Moon Knight has resumed vigilante activity. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (25-26) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the New Warriors. It is many months after Bolts death. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (27) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Nitro. She notes that Namor transported Nitro to their undersea kingdom to face punishment for killing Namors cousin, Namorita. Wolverine persuaded me to let him borrow a suit of my Hydro-Armor so he could travel to the Atlantean province of New Pangaea and negotiate Nitros release. In the event Nitro is brought in alive, our priority is to find out who supplied him with the MGH...  so its between W3 45 (1-22) and W3 45 (23). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (28) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on O*N*E. He notes that the O*N*E are currently hard-pressed in pursuing the 198 and some rogue X-Men, with the X-Mens own Bishop overseeing the squad in the field, a situation that is not yet resolved, so its between CW:X 2 (13-22) and CW:X 3. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (29) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the 198. He notes that Bishop and his team have been deployed to retrieve the 198 members, so its between CW:X 2 (13-22) and CW:X 3. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (30) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Punisher. He notes that Castle recently allowed himself to be arrested to observe Matt Murdock...in prison pending trial. However, Castles already escaped yet again and is reportedly investigating deputized ex-villains offered clemency for assistance during the current crisis. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (31) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Quicksilver. He notes that Pietro cuts a slightly deranged messiah figure in Manhattans District X and remains in the custody of his former X-Factor teammates, so its after XF3 9 (14-21). 


CIVIL WAR FILES (32) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Runaways. He refers to recent footage of the Runaways fighting the Young Avengers, so its after CW:YA/R 2. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (33) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Sentry. He notes that we are currently incarcerating the vast majority of unregistered combatants within Negative Zone Prison Alpha  and the Sentry has donated several of his Confluctor devices...to serve as transport gateways into the Negative Zone. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (34) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on SHIELD. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (35) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the She-Hulk. He notes that Hellcat was being registered by She-Hulk, so its after SH4 10 (1-11). He also notes that She-Hulk has signed on as Speedballs defense attorney, so its perhaps after CW:FL 3/2 (1-7). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (36) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Speedball. He notes that Robbie refuses to acquiesce to registered SHIELD service, the only option allowing him freedom at this time, so its before CW:FL 6/2 (7). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (37) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Spider-Man. He notes his discovery of Spideys inherent early warning precognition. He talks about earning Peters trust, so its before ASM 535 (3-4). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (38) 
One day, a few weeks after Bens bar mitzvah in THING2 8-FB (17-18). Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Thing. He notes Bens recent departure for France, so its after FF 540 (1-17). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (39-41) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Thunderbolts. Eel, Porcupine, Mongoose, and the U-Foes are among those listed as Thunderbolts, so its after TB 104 (1-19). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (42) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Wolverine. He notes that Logan has gone on a self-sanctioned mission in search of Nitro and notes that Nitros capture is of utmost interest, so its after W3 43. 

CIVIL WAR FILES (43) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on X-Factor. He notes that a group of Madroxes assisted a fugitive evade capture by Cape-Killer units and that X-Factor Investigations remain just on the right side of the law, so its between XF3 9 (1-13) and XF3 9 (14-21). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (44-45) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the X-Men. He notes that Emma Frost told him that the X-Men will remain neutral but that Bishop has offered his services to the government, so its between CW 3 (4-6) and CW:X 1 (17-22). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (46) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on Yellowjacket. He notes that a new Ant-Man has been spotted a few times stopping muggings, presumably figuring out how the armor works, so its after IAM 1 (). 

CIVIL WAR FILES (47) 
One day. Stark prepares a dossier for the president on the Young Avengers. He notes that most recently, SHIELD has spotted them in Los Angeles, almost certainly getting involved in something they shouldnt, so its shortly after CW:YA&R 2.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 14 Oct 2006 11:59 am    Post subject: When did Prof X first meet Corsair?
By wolframbane

In X-Men Deadly Genesis, Prof X tells Corsair shortly after they first meet that Corsair is the father of Kid Vulcan. In what issue does Prof X first meet Corsair?

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2006 12:56 pm    
By Mikhail

On panel, Xavier did not meet Corsair until after Scott learned the Starjammer was his father. The X-Men met the Starjammers in space in #107, while Xavier was on Earth. The X-Men returned to Earth without the Starjammers, and would not see them again until #154, where Corsair met up with Cyclops and Storm and they learned who each other were. Xavier WAS out in space from #114-129, though, and may have met Corsair then.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2006 01:09 pm    
By ashram316

It would seem that Xavier did not meet Corsair out in space because, in X 155, Xavier reacts to Corsair as if they have never met (Xavier thinks to himself something along the lines of 'who is this man. . . scott's thoughts are in turmoil. . . this is scott's father'). I would guess that, in DG, Xavier is asking Corsair not to reveal Vulcan's existance to Scott/Alex because the fact that Corsair=Christopher Summers was already known to Scott at this point.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2006 05:00 pm    
By Somebody

Corsair thought Vulcan died with his mother though, per DG... 

I really don't see a place for this that is even vaguely comfortable. In Corsair's first appearance, he has no idea Cyclops is Scott until Phoenix tells him outright. So it has to be between that and when Scott finds out (the brood arc, right?), but Corsair doesn't go anywhere near Earth until Scott knows. And all the Vulcan-flashbacks are in-situ, either literally or because the environments are "ghosted" as well. 

If it's really real, as it appears, I'm almost tempted to take a crowbar to the end of the D'Ken/M'Kraan story (UX108), and call Corsair BTS for the end of that story and the beginning of UX109 (in the scrum at the entrance), talking with Xavier and then going back through the stargate to meet up with the Starjammers while Wolverine's off "hunting". It's bollocks, making a complete nonsense of Phoenix's flashback and Scott's reflections in UX109, but there really is nowhere to put it as presented.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2006 05:45 pm    
By ashram316

It is pretty clear that Scott knew who Corsair was before Xavier did. I'm inclined to think that this scene never actually took place, since there is no place for it to go. It could be that Vulcan manipulated something in Havok's mind, showing him something that he subconsiously believes occured, to turn him against Xavier.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2006 08:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Corsair doesn't go anywhere near Earth until Scott knows. 
<<<

Well, not that we know of. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2006 07:49 am    
By ashram316

I went back to the issue at hand (UX 155). When Xavier first lays eyes on Corsair, he thinks to himself "I've never sensed such turmoil in Scott's thoughts -- and no wonder!! Corsair is his father?!?" To me, the question marks mean that he is meeting Corsair for the first time, and thus, is surprised to see that Scott's father is alive. If it comes out as a statement, we have wiggle room, but since it is a question, I would have to go with any prior meeting between Xavier and Corsair (as depicted it DG) as not having occurred.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2006 09:21 am    
By Dhall

Sadly, we have to accept what we've just seen in DG, and find the best place for it....it's a retcon, so be it. We can't just reject it because we don't like it, or because it makes no sense. If we didn't we'd still be puzzling over how Sage was supposedly working for Xavier, which makes no sense at all given previous storylines (and his thoughts about her in NM GN for instance.) 

Continuity has been altered, so where is the best place for this to go?

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2006 10:13 am    
By wolframbane

ashram316 wrote: 
>>>
'When Xavier first lays eyes on Corsair, he thinks to himself "I've never sensed such turmoil in Scott's thoughts -- and no wonder!! Corsair is his father?!?'as not having occurred. 
<<<

When this first statement is expressed, it was obvious Charles learned that Corsair was Scott's father by reading their minds. IN XDG, Charles revealed that he can tell if someone is related by sensing a similar genetic 'cerebral structure' between Scott and Corsair. 

Looking back, it is also possible that when Charles realized they were related, it wwas not necessarily because he telepathically heard it in Scott's mind, but recognized their 'cerebral structures'. But to avoid any arguments as to which is correct, its possible that both events occurred, or he learned the truth one way and immediately confirmed it with the other. At any rate, he figured out Kid Vulcan was in the mix too.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2006 04:55 pm    
By Jason Doty

Without reading the dialog, the first possible time would be around UX 167.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2006 10:19 pm    
By ashram316

By UX 167, Scott already knows that Corsair is his father. I agree with Somebody on this one, this scene has to occur closer to the end of the Phoenix Saga circa UX 109.

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 17 Oct 2006 01:50 am    Post subject: Various Captain Americas...
By Col_Fury

The Golden Age Marvel Handbook gave some issue ranges for which issues each of the various replacement Captain Americas & Buckys appeared in. I happen to agree with what they've stated, as it lines up nicely with publication dates. I'll suggest some placements for these comics.(based on those publication dates) 

I'll also suggest splitting the entries for Spirit of '76/Cap II, Patriot/Cap III, & Bucky III/Nomad III, similar to Cap IV's split entry with Grand Director. 

Also, Bucky III has a more detailed chronology than Cap IV does, so I'll suggest a similar chronology for the same area as Cap IV to match. 

SPIRIT OF '76/WILLIAM NASLUND 
INV 14 
INV 15 
CA@ 13-FB (04/45) 
CA 215-FB 
See Captain America II 
CAPTAIN AMERICA II/WILLIAM NASLUND 
From Spirit of 76 
WI? 4 pg1-pg16 
CA@ 6-FB (06/45) 
CA@ 6 
N@ 1/3 (07/45) 
WI? 4 pg17 
SAGASM 5 
ALL WINNERS 19 
ALL WINNERS 19/2 
ALL WINNERS 19/7 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 49 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 50 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 51 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 52 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 53 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 54 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 55 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 56 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 57 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 58 
WI? 4 pg18pn5-pg34 

PATRIOT/JEFF MACE 
... 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 74 
CA@ 13-FB 
WI? 4 
See Captain America III 
CAPTAIN AMERICA III/JEFF MACE 
From Patriot 
WI? 4 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 59 
ALL WINNERS 21-FB 
ALL WINNERS 21 
ALL WINNERS 21/2 
ALL WINNERS 21/7 
S-H2 22 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 60 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 61 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 62 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 63 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 64 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 65 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 66 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 67 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 68 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 69 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 70 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 71 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 72 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 73 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 74 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 75 
CV 1-FB 
 

CAPTAIN AMERICA IV/STEVE ROGERS II 
NOM2 24-FB 
CA 155-FB 
{YOUNG MEN 24} 
YOUNG MEN 25 
YOUNG MEN 26 
YOUNG MEN 27 
MEN'S ADVENTURE 27 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 76 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 76/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 76/3 
YOUNG MEN 28 
MEN'S ADVENTURE 28 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 77 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 77/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 77/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78/3 
CA@ 13-FB 
CA@ 6-FB 
CA@ 6 
CA 155-FB 
M/: LG 1-FB 
{CA 153} 
CA 154 
CA 155 
CA 156 
See Grand Director 

BUCKY II/FRED DAVIS 
WI? 4 pg1-pg16 
CA@ 6-FB (06/45) 
WI? 4 pg17 
SAGASM 5 
ALL WINNERS 19 
ALL WINNERS 19/2 
ALL WINNERS 19/7 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 49 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 50 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 51 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 52 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 53 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 54 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 55 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 56 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 57 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 58 
WI? 4 pg18pn5-pg34 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 59 
ALL WINNERS 21-FB 
ALL WINNERS 21 
ALL WINNERS 21/2 
ALL WINNERS 21/7 
S-H2 22 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 60 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 61 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 62 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 63 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 64 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 65 
CV 1-FB 
 
(as far as I can tell, Bucky didn't appear past issue 65 until the book was picked back up at issue 75, by which time another Bucky was in the role. Golden Girl was Cap's new sidekick in the meantime, but I'm not entirely sure which issues she appeared in, so I'll hold off on suggesting any placements for her) 

BUCKY III/JACK MONROE 
... 
CA 281 
CA 282 
See Nomad III 
NOMAD III/JACK MONROE 
From Bucky III 
CA 282 

_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2006 10:27 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote: 
(as far as I can tell, Bucky didn't appear past issue 65 until the book was picked back up at issue 75, by which time another Bucky was in the role. Golden Girl was Cap's new sidekick in the meantime, but I'm not entirely sure which issues she appeared in, so I'll hold off on suggesting any placements for her) 


According to the issue summaries at comics.org, Bucky is also in #71 and the Golden Girl is in the Cap stories in CA COMICS #66-73 and in Marvel Mystery Comics #87-92. Of course, I don't have reprints of any of these and can't independently verify this information. 

Also: Bucky and Cap weren't in CAPTAIN AMERICA'S WEIRD TALES #75. The '50s revival began with #76. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2006 10:52 pm    
By Col_Fury

You're right, that should read: '...picked back up at issue 76.' (Issue 75 was published in Feb '50, and issue 76 was published in May '54) 
SeanCurtin wrote: 
Also: Bucky and Cap weren't in CAPTAIN AMERICA'S WEIRD TALES #75.  

Really? I can believe it; super heroes were dying at the time. But to publish a book without the titular characters... weird. They're not even on the cover. I guess I should take issue 75 off of my proposal for Jeff Mace.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 02:24 pm    Post subject: Tana Nile
By jannepie

From what I've read on the Internet, Tana Nile apparently also appears in Generation X #20. I can't verify this myself, since I don't have the issue, but I thought I should let you know. 

TANA NILE 
CPU 4 
CPU 5 
*GENX 20 
GENX 23 
GENX 25

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 08:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just checked GENX 20. No sign of Tana Nile.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2006 04:39 am    
By rhod

Leech does mention a 'blue lady' in this issue though, who is later revealed to be Tana Nile, so maybe she should get a BTS?
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 06:16 pm    Post subject: Spidey's New Costume
By HornetzJr

Been trying to figure out where to place all the Spidey appearances with his new costume. I've put them in between the issue of amazing where he makes a promise to Tony and the issue where he leaves for washington. Just pretending that a lot of time passes between Peter reading the act and leaving for washington. Early issues like the Friendly neighborhood and Sensation arcs right before the unmasking but with the new costume. Also, Luke's wedding, MTU and any guest appearances. Any help'd be really appretiated. 

-Jeff

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 07:06 pm    
By SeanCurtin

He's also in The Thing #6-8 in the new costume, and the suit has the ability to switch back to the original costume in all three issues. Namor is in #8, so that should probably occur before the Illuminati Special as well. The Thing's entry in Civil War Files refers to #8 as having occurred "a few weeks" earlier. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 09:06 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here are appearances I have between the adoption of the Iron Spider costume and the start of Civil War: 

ASM 529-531 
FNSM 6-FB 
FNSM 6-10 
SPIDER-MAN/ARANA 1 
FF SPECIAL 1 (armor has appearance of classic costume) 
SENSM2 23-27 
NEW AVENGERS @ 1 
M/TU3 21 
THING2 6 
IM4 7-8 
BP4 16 
A4 21-FB 
A4 17-20 
M/TU3 23-25 
THING2 8-FB 
THING2 8 
ASM 532-FB 
ASM 531 
CW 1
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2006 07:45 am    
By ashram316

Don't forget X-Men 186 (the end of Blood of Apocalypse).

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 22 Oct 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject: Why is Prince of Power noncanon?
By cnowlin

Just curious what makes this out of continuity.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Oct 2006 11:42 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Both series are set in the distant future. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 12:19 am    
By cnowlin

Really? But the first one's got Nova (Frankie Raye) in it, being all heraldy.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 12:31 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Right. 

That's one of the things that makes it not canon. 


watching: masters of horror

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 01:12 am    
By cnowlin

Now I'm more confused.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 06:39 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

The book takes place in the future, but Frankie Raye died in Silver Surfer #75. If she's dead now, then she can't be alive in the future. Ergo, the book can't be in continuity.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 07:11 am    
By Somebody

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
If she's dead now, then she can't be alive in the future. 
<<<

That's a very narrow-minded view for the Marvel Universe 

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 03:08 pm    
By rhod

The way I see it, is that though it was set in the future when published, it could actually have happened sometime since then, though I've raised the issue here before and no-one agreed.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 07:10 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The two minis took place in the very distant future. 24th Century, IIRC. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 08:39 pm    
By rhod

That's fair enough then, I didn't remember any particular date being given. 

I wonder if future MCPers will consider inserting this..... 
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 11:04 pm    
By cnowlin

I guess my confusion is: 

How do we know it's set in the distant future? I just read through it and missed where we were told that. 

If it is in the future, I see the concern, and why the question becomes academic anyway.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Oct 2006 07:25 am    
By jannepie

I haven't read the minis but I have some Hercules graphic novel, which I believe takes place in the same future. IIRC it was very clear that the story took place in distant future, although I'm not able to check it for some time now.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Oct 2006 03:01 pm    
By loki

There's actually nothing in the first miniseries which confirms it as being in the future. However the second miniseries explicitly is, and is noted as being roughly 30 years further on that the first miniseries.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Oct 2006 03:39 pm    
By Somebody

In that case, if the second's non-canon, what's to stop the first being canon? [After all, dating evidence in the second mini would therefore ALSO be non-canon...]

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Oct 2006 03:56 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Stories that feature future versions of current characters are prima facie not canon, for the purposes of the MCP. We don't put future appearances of characters in the chronologies. 

In the year 2200 (or whenever these stories are set), we'll revisit them, and decide at that point if they're truly canon, and deserving of entry here. 

And yes, I know what you're saying. You're calling the reference in the second series into question, and thereby bringing the first series back into the fold, but in this case, editorial intent is quite clear. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2006 04:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Didn't the eighties HANDBOOK describe this story as non-canon, anyway? That's surely conclusive on the point.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 25 Oct 2006 03:32 pm    Post subject: Star-Lords, those crazy Star-Lords
By Enda80

Well, the Handbook has attempted to hack out Star-Lord's timeline. 

It now works this way. 

1960-the time lost Jason of Spartoi arrives from modern era 

pre-1962-Jason leaves, presumably returning to modern era 

1990 Quill becomes Star-Lord 

Modern era: Kryas Shakati attends a Shi'ar event 

Jason of Spartoi (indentical to the one mentioned above) encounters Inhumans, as does Shakati gets lost in 1960. 

Quill taken by ship to the modern era so he can reunite with his father 

Death of Shakati 

Rest of Starlord's adventures 

Since Kyras Shakati was still alive in X-Men I#125 and the recent Inhumans limited series, that indicates that the bulk of Star-Lord's adventures took place between X-Men I#125 and Inhumans.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 24 Oct 2006 06:37 pm    Post subject: Ms Marvel's "Full Week" within #18...{Spoilers}...
By PaxHouse

Just wished to know if anybody has done the Issues in which Carol/Ms. Marvel was busy within the Week that happenned in #18 {after she helped captured Archane/Julia Carpenter and before she 'meets' Rogue toward its ending}...... 

So far, I'm assuming that these two comics should be included..... 

NEW X-MEN [VOL II] #28 & CW:X-MEN #4..... 

But, there may be more to be added........  
_________________
PaxHouse.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Oct 2006 08:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Carol undoubtedly makes other appearances in that "week," but it's hard to say exactly which appearances those are until we're done working on the chronological fabric of the whole Civil War event. Right now, I'm inclined to put NX 28 there, and FF 538 as well. We don't know yet if the end of MSM2 8 takes place after or during Civil War. If it's truly only a "week" between pages 18 and 19 of MSM2 8, CW:X may end up after Rogue's encounter with Carol. We'll have to wait and see.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2006 07:31 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm going to assume you mean Issue #8 of the current Mrs. Marvel series, not Issue #18, (which hasn't even been solicited yet)?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2006 04:44 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm going to assume you meant Ms. Marvel. Issue #1 of Mrs. Marvel hasn't been solicited yet. 


watching: three stooges

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2006 06:35 pm    
By PaxHouse

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Carol undoubtedly makes other appearances in that "week," but it's hard to say exactly which appearances those are until we're done working on the chronological fabric of the whole Civil War event. Right now, I'm inclined to put NX 28 there, and FF 538 as well. We don't know yet if the end of MSM2 8 takes place after or during Civil War. If it's truly only a "week" between pages 18 and 19 of MSM2 8, CW:X may end up after Rogue's encounter with Carol. We'll have to wait and see. 
<<<

Well, it looks like that you can add the 2nd story of CW: CHOOSING SIDES [THE IRREDEEMABLE ANT MAN] to the list; since the tale reveals what the New Ant Man's being doing within the Battle that occurred in both ASM #534 & FF #538......
_________________
PaxHouse.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2006 09:44 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I'm going to assume you meant Ms. Marvel. Issue #1 of Mrs. Marvel hasn't been solicited yet. 
<<<

Um, er, did I say "Mrs."? I meant "Madame Marvel". Yeah, that's it. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 22 Oct 2006 08:28 am    Post subject: Betty Ross/ Golden Girl from the 1940s and 1950s
By Ron Flick

BETTY ROSS/ GOLDEN GIRL CHRONOLOGY 
I believe I have all the appearances of Betty Ross/ Golden Girl in Captain America Comics (abbreviated CA C) and the later Marvel Mystery Comics (abbreviated MM C). I still have to double-check the issues from Captain America Comics 40 to 60. I used the Grand Comics Database for issues 61 to 76. (Betty does not become Golden Girl until issue 66.) Also, I have not checked the many Captain America stories that appeared in the other Timely titles, such as All Winners, All Select, USA, etc. In the meantime, here is what I have: 

CA C 1 / 1 ...is referred to as "Agent X-13", one of the FBI's "trusted agents" (Betty Ross?) 
TOS 63 / 2 ...is referred to as "Agent R" in this Silver Age retelling (Betty Ross?) 

CA C 1 / 2 ...remarks: "Betty Ross is the name, CaptainI've been investigating this ring 
for the government!" 
TOS 64 / 2 ...remarks: "I'm a special agent for the Women's Army Corps! We're cooperating 
with the F.B.I."; gives her name as "Agent Thirteen" in this SA re-telling 
CA C 2 / 1 ...is referred to as a "special investigator for the U.S." 
CA C 4 / 2 ...in a dream sequence, is referred to as the daughter of "King Peter Ross" 
CA C 4 / 3 ...is referred to as a "federal agent" 
CA C 4 / 4 ...poses as a nurse 
CA C 5 / 1 ...is referred to as a "special government agent" 
CA C 6 / 1 ...is referred to as an "FBI operative" 
CA C 7 / 1 
CA C 7 / text ...is identified as the daughter of an army general, murdered by Axis spies 
CA C 8 / 1 ...is referred to as an agent of the FBI 
CA C 9 / 3 ...is shown embracing Cap, ready to kiss him, when interrupted by Bucky 
CA C 10 / 4 ...makes a brief, 2-panel cameo 
CA C 13 / 2 ..is referred to as an FBI agent stationed in Washington, D.C. 
CA C 14 / 2 ...attends a dance with Steve Rogers; gets jealous and spiteful 
CA C 15 / 1 ...meets with Steve in Times Square; referred to as "Steve's girlfriend" 
CA C 16 / 1 ...gives Steve cold shoulder; addresses him as "Rogers" 
CA C 
CA C 18 / 2 ...in a dream sequence, Bucky pleads: "B-but you're engaged to Steve Rogers!" 
CA C 18 / 3 ...is referred to as Steve's "girl" and is shown as an agent of the U.S. Army 

Betty does not make another appearance for 15 issues/ months 

CA C 33 / 3 ...is referred to as a "lieutenant in the WACS"; has a happy reunion with 
Steve and Bucky in northern Africa 

Betty again goes on hiatus for more than two years. 


CA C 61 / 4 ...returns as a major supporting character 
CA C 62 / 1 ...becomes a teacher at Lee School 
CA C 62 / 2 
CA C 63 / 1 
CA C 63 / 2 
CA C 64 / 1 
CA C 64 / 4 
CA C 66 / 1 ...becomes Golden Girl; kisses Cap 
CA C 67 / 1 teams w/ Cap; enters another dimension 
CA C 67 / 3 

MM C 87 / 4 


CA C 68 / 1 ...teams w/ Cap; deals with a juvenile delinquet 

MM C 88 / 4 ...refers to Colonel Ross, her father 

CA C 69 / 1 ...teams w/ Cap; encounters "wee" people 
CA C 70 / 1 ...teams w/ Cap; fights invading Martians 

SAGAHT 3 REF ...Sun-Girl refers to Golden Girl as Cap's partner 

MM C 91 / 4 

CA C 72 / 1 ...teams w/ Cap; enters a criminal's mind 

MM C 92 / 3 

CA C 73 / 2 ...makes last costumed appearance 




CA C 76 / 1 ...returns as a newspaper reporter 
76 / 2 

CA:RWB / 8 ...accompanies Cap IV to the 1950s Senate hearings on communists in gov't 

CA @ 6 REF ...Patriot/ Cap III refers to Golden Girl as a past partner

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Oct 2006 07:26 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thanks for this, Ron! 

I agree with Ron's listing for the first ten issues, the only difference is I didn't include text pages in the numbering of stories, as it seems Ron did. 

I've heard the theory that Betty Ross was also Agent X-13, but I can't seem to find anything that ties the two characters together. Does anyone have any idea where this came from?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2006 12:14 pm    
By Ron Flick

The debate as to whether Betty Ross and Agent X-13/ Agent R are the same woman has been raging for years. When the Golden Age Marvel Message Board was active, this debate came up on an annual basis. 

In the second story of Captain America Comics #1 (1941), Betty Ross is introduced as "a beautiful but familiar girl". If this is her first appearance, why would she be "familiar"? The only way she would be familiar is if she and the woman in the previous origin story were the same woman. On the other hand, the woman in the first story evidently knew that Steve Rogers became Captain America. In all the subsequent stories, however, Betty Ross did not know that Steve and Cap were the same person. (See comments below) So, Agent X-13 and Betty would have to be separate women. Others say that the reason Stan Lee changed the agent's name from Agent X-13 to Agent R in the Silver Age version of the story was to allude to Betty Ross's true name without using it, since another Betty Ross had been introduced in the Hulk comic. There are other tidbits of fact and innuendo that support either position, but I won't go into all those here. I did write an analysis of the whole matter about a year ago, and if you are interested I can email you a copy. My email address is architec@fullnet.com. 

Concerning the matter of identities, it has always amazed me that no one was supposed to figure out that Steve Rogers, whose bunkmate was Bucky Barnes, was the same person as Captain America, whose sidekick was Bucky (without a last name). Think how "secretive" an identity is when the costumed character goes by the same name as his true identity! What deception!!! No one would believe it!!! Brilliant!!! 

Just being cynical....

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2006 05:46 am    
By Ron Flick

I carelessly missed an early important appearance by Betty in Young Allies #4, which was the follow-up story to a story in Captain America Comics #16: 


CA C 15 / 1 ...meets with Steve in Times Square; referred to as "Steve's girlfriend" 
CA C 16 / 1 ...gives Steve cold shoulder; addresses him as "Rogers" 
* YOUNG ALLIES 4 ... is rescued by the boys, helps battle the Red Skull, and meets the Human Torch for the first time 
CA C 18 / 2 ...in a dream sequence, Bucky pleads: "B-but you're engaged to Steve Rogers!" 
CA C 18 / 3 ...is referred to as Steve's "girl" and is shown as an agent of the U.S. Army

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 23 Jun 2006 07:15 pm    Post subject: New Avengers #20 explained...
By Kevin W.
Director

Not sure if this is straight up chronology discussion, but anyway...New Avengers #20 left me scratching my head saying, "What the hell?!?" 

Apparently I'm not the only one who felt that way, as Joe Quesada basically had to explain the plot over at Newsarama: 

Quote: 
>>>
NRAMA: Gotcha. Moving to other topics - this week saw Brian Bendis (hopefully) explain or close the book on Xorn in New Avengers #20. Okay  honestly now  can you explain to us what he was/is? And Magneto has powers again? Depowered isnt depowered, is it? 

JQ: Kuan-Yen Xorn and Shen Xorn were twin brothers from China, both mutants, one with the power of a star in his head, one the power of a black hole. Kuan-Yen Xorn came under the influence of as-yet-to-be-revealed entity that forced him to assume the identity of Magneto, battle the X-Men and destroy Manhattan. He was subsequently killed by Wolverine near the end of that battle, in the Planet X storyline. 

Soon thereafter, his twin brother Shen surfaced and briefly joined the X-Men. This Xorn brother was de-powered during M-Day. 

Because Xorn's powers were psychokinetic, and his personality was so strong, it basically remained an almost disembodied sentient thing among the big ball of mutant energy. When that energy got sucked down to Earth by Michael and all absorbed by him, Xorn was the dominant personality in the mix, and that's what drove him towards Genosha and Magneto. 

NRAMA: You make it all sound sosimple  
<<<

OOOOOOHHHHH....so THAT'S what happened...  

I had assumed that the Magneto we saw in "Planet X" was a creation of Wanda's...so it's nice that Wanda isn't responsible for everything...but then, wait...how did a guy with a star for a head look like Magneto? In "Planet X", Xorn took off that helmet, and it looked like Magneto... 

And the "other" Xorn, the twin brother, wasn't he sucked into another dimension at the end of Chuck Austen's run? And hasn't been seen since then? So how could he have been affected by M-Day? 

This retcon really hasn't been thought out very well, has it?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2006 07:56 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
the "other" Xorn, the twin brother, wasn't he sucked into another dimension at the end of Chuck Austen's run? And hasn't been seen since then? 
<<<

No no no -- the second Xorn WAS the black hole, that everyone ELSE was sucked into. Once all the villains had vanished into the black hole in his head, he put his helmet on and walked away. 

I was confused as all hell when I read this issue too, but some things are starting to fall into place... 


Quote: 
>>>
I had assumed that the Magneto we saw in "Planet X" was a creation of Wanda's 
<<<

Nope -- looks like Wanda's involvement was limited to resurrecting Magneto (or, ensuring that he didn't die) when Genosha was destroyed. The real Magneto's chronology should jump from X #115 directly to EXCAL3 #1. 

Ever since the "Xorn was a real person all along" retcon, nobody knows Xorn's motivation for becoming Magneto. According to Joe Q here, he came under the influence of some other entity. For a long time, Morrison scholars have maintained that this entity was Sublime. After all, John Sublime was present at the Feng Tu prison in X@ 2001, and "Magneto" was seen huffing the Kick drug -- the aerosol form of Sublime -- several times during the run. 

Then, during X #161-164, when the second Xorn came to the mansion, he implied that whatever evil force caused the first Xorn to become Magneto was still around. At the end of #164, a pair of eyes looking very much like Cassandra Nova's was seen hovering above Carter Ghazikhanian. (And of course, Cassandra's back in the current ASTONX3 storyline. I guess we'll see if there are any revelations to be had here.) 

But, looking at the dialogue from New Avengers #20 ... Joe Quesada has just told us that the entity seen there was the SECOND Xorn ... and yet this Xorn is claiming responsibility for the FIRST Xorn's rampage, and using the plural to describe himself. "WE killed 5000 in your name!", he says. But the second Xorn didn't have anything to do with that. 

Or did he? Hey, what's another retcon at this point? It could very well be that the second Xorn WAS the force behind the first Xorn's actions! He could possibly have been evil, and either plotted the whole thing out with his brother, or simply manipulated him into taking on Magneto's name. This would explain why he's referring to Xorn's actions in the plural, and would shed new light on his comments in X #162 about the "evil force" that made the first Xorn go bad still being around -- because HE was the evil force. 

This isn't really related to chronology anymore, I guess ... we're now into the realm of speculatory X-plots. But it's good, at least, that we've found out *which* Xorn was the one appearing in A4 #20... 


Quote: 
>>>
how did a guy with a star for a head look like Magneto? 
<<<

Shape-shifting? Illusion-casting? He was lying about having a star for a brain? The original answer, of course, was "it was Magneto under there, and he was lying" -- but post-retcon, I don't suppose we'll get the answer to that little puzzler in a hurry. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2006 08:46 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
No no no -- the second Xorn WAS the black hole, that everyone ELSE was sucked into. Once all the villains had vanished into the black hole in his head, he put his helmet on and walked away.  
<<<

Ah, thanks for the correction. I had forgotten that part...or misread that issue. 


Quote: 
>>>
But, looking at the dialogue from New Avengers #20 ... Joe Quesada has just told us that the entity seen there was the SECOND Xorn ... and yet this Xorn is claiming responsibility for the FIRST Xorn's rampage, and using the plural to describe himself. "WE killed 5000 in your name!", he says. But the second Xorn didn't have anything to do with that. 

Or did he? Hey, what's another retcon at this point? It could very well be that the second Xorn WAS the force behind the first Xorn's actions! He could possibly have been evil, and either plotted the whole thing out with his brother, or simply manipulated him into taking on Magneto's name. This would explain why he's referring to Xorn's actions in the plural, and would shed new light on his comments in X #162 about the "evil force" that made the first Xorn go bad still being around -- because HE was the evil force. 
<<< 


I'm highly suspicious of Bendis's script, and I suspect that this is another case of Bendis not keeping track of the his plots...I place more value in what Joe Q. says in an interview. 

Could the plural nature of the "Xorn" entity in New Avengers 20 be in reference to Sublime being involved in the mix? Xorn + Sublime = Constant reference to "We"? 

And if Joe Q. is to be believed, it was the 2nd Xorn's POWERS that disappeared on M-Day, not the 2nd Xorn himself...so why would the powers suddenly have sentience?!? It's almost like this was written to be the essence, (the "soul") of the first Xorn, the one that was killed...not the powers of the 2nd Xorn... 

Brief plot speculation side point: Whichever "Xorn" it was that was hurled into the sun, does anyone else think that it's bad to mix a mutant "sun" power or mutant "black hole" power in with the sun?!? 

Oh yeah, and there was one other bit from that interview that I wanted to put up here, (that IS of chronology/timeline interest): 


Quote: 
>>>
NRAMA: iceman06: - Currently, how old are Marvel's original teenagers like Spider-Man, the Human Torch, and the original X-Men? Someone told me that the Marvel Universe is 15 years old which places all of these characters in their 30's since Peter Parker has been Spider-Man since he was 15, but I've seen you say very recently that Spider-Man is 25. What's the official word? Are these characters in their early 30's because 15 years have passed, or are they in their late 20's because 10 years have passed? If it's in between, which is it closer to? Thanks! 

JQ: Iceman06, for years into the 80s, the operating concept of the Marvel U was that it had been maybe 7 years since the FF got their powers. That was the static age that everything was mostly left at. Eventually, this increased to 10 years in the 90s, and then about 12 or 13 years, which is what we kind of go by today.  
<<<

Joe really doesn't seem to want to admit that it's been 15 years, but close enough: I for one say Spider-Man is now in his early 30's!!! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2006 10:25 pm    
By Col_Fury

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It could very well be that the second Xorn WAS the force behind the first Xorn's actions! He could possibly have been evil, and either plotted the whole thing out with his brother, or simply manipulated him into taking on Magneto's name. This would explain why he's referring to Xorn's actions in the plural, and would shed new light on his comments in X #162 about the "evil force" that made the first Xorn go bad still being around -- because HE was the evil force. 
<<<

For what it's worth, that's the way I read it. But... 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
For a long time, Morrison scholars have maintained that this entity was Sublime. After all, John Sublime was present at the Feng Tu prison in X@ 2001, and "Magneto" was seen huffing the Kick drug -- the aerosol form of Sublime -- several times during the run.  
<<<

I didn't even think of that. Hmmnn... 


As for chronology: 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The real Magneto's chronology should jump from X #115 directly to EXCAL3 #1.  
<<<

Absolutely. And... 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
But it's good, at least, that we've found out *which* Xorn was the one appearing in A4 #20...  
<<<

Yes. That's good at least.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jun 2006 05:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Unfortunately, the Xorn shown in this week's NEW AVENGERS is unequivocally claiming to be the one who impersonated Magneto. Bendis MAY be trying to suggest that the two Xorns are linked somehow, since only the second one could conceivably have been affected by M-Day, which is somehow supposed to have tied into this plot. Nonetheless, I can't for the life of me see how Quesada's explanation reconciles to what appears on the printed page, and the story as published has to take precedence.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jun 2006 12:32 pm    
By Somebody

Stupid question I know - but do we know Xorn I is dead? Yes, Wolverine seperated his head from his body, but I doubt a star needs a blood flow. Could the head have survived seperately to be M-Dayed?

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Jun 2006 05:46 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul, why are you reading the issue so inflexibly? I can easily see how Joe Q's statement reconciles with the issue as printed -- simply because this Xorn is using the plural to take responsibility for Kuan-Yin's actions. 

Plus, you know, Kuan-Yin's DEAD. 

There are two ways to think about it: 

1) Joe Q. says this was Shen Xorn, but it's taking responsibility for Kuan-Yin Xorn's actions, so it must be Kuan-Yin even though Kuan-Yin's dead and Joe says it was Shen. 

This train of thought forces you to assume an off-panel resurrection, and to ignore editorial statements. 

2) Joe Q. says this was Shen Xorn, so it's Shen Xorn. It's taking responsibilty for Kuan-Yin Xorn's actions, but that's either a goof-up or an implication that Shen was in on the plan with Kuan-Yin. The use of the plural suggests the latter. 

This train of thought forces you to assume that somewhere along the lines, Bendis either made a mistake or was implying Shen Xorn's complicity. 

I like option #2. Fewer big leaps of faith. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Jun 2006 02:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I know this is a side discussion, but I couldn't let it pass... 

Quote: 
>>>
JQ: Iceman06, for years into the 80s, the operating concept of the Marvel U was that it had been maybe 7 years since the FF got their powers. That was the static age that everything was mostly left at. Eventually, this increased to 10 years in the 90s, and then about 12 or 13 years, which is what we kind of go by today.  
<<<

Yeah, except it's noted explicity in this week's IRON MAN v4 #9 that it's been "15 years" since TOS 39. (And a flashback features the retconned Iron Man origin in Afghanistan instead of the original Vietnam.) I think Marvel creators are just going to continue to be inconsistent about this. Suffice it to say that fewer that 45 MU years have elapsed since FF 1. My number happens to be 23.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2006 11:18 am    
By Somebody

Just curious, since something popped up the other day to remind me of this thing - has there been anything else said on which Xorn it was past what was already mentioned upthread?

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 25 Oct 2006 04:52 pm    Post subject: Moon Knight Chronology ('92 Special & Divided We Fall)
By Cable

I just got to say to the creators of the main site, awesome work guys, and thanks for a milestone of a website. 

Anyways I just got know, why ani't Marc Spector: Moon Knight Special (1992), and Moon Knight: Divided We Fall not in he's chronology? It's driving me crazy, I would like to know when those issues happen, and I know this would th best place to ask.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2006 09:49 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Welcome to the site! The issues you mention probably haven't been added to the MCP yet because they fall in "the gap", which has been explained in the FAQ. Please make sure you read over the FAQ closely, as it may answer any further questions you have.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2006 11:52 pm    
By Cable

Thanks for the welcome, yeah I read about the Gap before. I was just hoping maybe someone would of known offhand, I should of wrote the post differently, but it's cool I can wait.  

Here's nere as I can figure, they can't be after Marc Spector: Moon Knight #60 cause he's dead and doesn't come back till the Ressurection War mini-series, and the '92 Special has to be after he get's he's Adamantium armor, and judging by the font used for the the title on Divivde We Fall, it could be around or after he's first series but before the Fist of Khonshu mini-series cause of the different costume.

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 27 Oct 2006 05:08 pm    Post subject: Red Skull/Zola/Captain American question
By Enda80

In which issue was the Red Skull trapped in that bunker by Magneto *and* had visions of people talking to him. Most of those people would have to be not really there, but Arnima Zola was one of them, and he has an ESP box, so he could have been in psyhic communication with the Skull. Zola in this issue referred to a lack of fidelity in his cloning work, which was referred to in the Hate-Monger's master edition entry. Unfluffybunny

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2006 07:49 am    
By Frederic Krier

I think that was in Captain America vol. I #369. Not 100% sure though, I don't have that issue here.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 28 Oct 2006 05:58 pm    Post subject: Wolverine 1/2
By benpollard

Hi, 

Does anyone know if Wolverine 1/2, published by Wizard, is considered non canon. I can't find it in the Wolverine chronology, and I'd like to find out when it is supposed to take place. 

Thanks in advance, 
Ben

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2006 12:06 pm    
By Somebody

Well, #0/# issues are usually canon, and a couple (like Weapon X #) are actually important to their respective series. I expect that it's a simple case of no-one's bothered analysing it or something like that.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2006 12:28 am    
By JLH

There's always waiting for the other half to come out. Maybe it'll be explained there!

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 30 Oct 2006 12:02 am    Post subject: Invaders in Black Panther v4 21-FB
By Col_Fury

Briefly, the FlashBack in BP4 21 shows Captain America chasing after Nazis towards Wakanda, but the Nazis are losing their heads in Wakandan booby traps. Meanwhile, the Invaders fight some Nazis & Master Man, and a new Warrior Woman.(?) Master Man is defeated, but the Nazis have been killed by someone, so Spitfire flies off to find out who it was. Shortly afterwards, Namor attacks the Black Panther,(who killed the Nazis) but Namor is quickly subdued by the Black Panther. 

References: 
In the current day, the WWII Black Panther is said to be TChallas grandfather, reinforcing FFU 1/2-FB & the handbooks, and discrediting Caps memory in BP3 30. Check this out for more on Chanda, TChallas grandfather.(near end of 2nd page) 

Nazi scouts were sent to Wakanda to plan an invasion. They already knew about Vibranium, placing this after FFU 1/2-FB, which is where they found out about it. 

Captain America is making his way towards Wakanda, placing this before BP4 1-FB, where Cap is already there and is upset over the beheaded Nazis. 

The appearing Invaders are Namor, Human Torch, Union Jack, & Spitfire. Master Man appears, but the woman with him is apparently a new character. It seems like it may be intended to be Warrior Woman, if only because shes usually teamed up with Master Man, but this woman is blonde with a buzz cut.(Warrior Woman has long black hair) Shes not given a name here, so unless she ever appears again I guess its safe to ignore her. 

Captain America has his triangular shield and the open necked uniform here, as he appeared in BP4 1-FB. Of course, Cap stopped using these long before the Invaders formed, which in turn was before Spitfire got her powers. We can ignore the shield & uniform, or chalk it up to an artistic error, or assume Cap was feeling nostalgic for some reason. 

Aside from Caps shield & uniform, this works just fine between FFU 1/2-FB & BP4 1-FB. 

Some placement suggestions: (edited to include recent suggestions) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/ STEVEN ROGERS 
 
CA 219-FB (1944) 
CLAN 8-FB (1944) 
NA: AAFES 
*BP4 21-FB 
*BP4 1-FB(1944) 
CA@ 9/2-FB (04/44) 
 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
 
N@ 2/2 (1943) 
CLAND 8-FB (1944) 
*BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
 
CA: SL2 4 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
CLAND 8-FB (1944) 
*BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
 

UNION JACK II/BRIAN FALSWORTH 
 
INV 41 
*BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
 

SPITFIRE/LADY JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON 
 
INV 41 
*BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
 

MASTER MAN/WILHELM LOHMER 
 
CA: ME (01/07/43) 
*BP4 21-FB 
WX2 14-FB (1944) 
 

CHANDA/BLACK PANTHER 
BP3 30-FB 
FFU 1/2-FB 
*BP4 21-FB 
BP4 1-FB (1944)
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

Last edited by Col_Fury on 08 Jul 2007 02:02 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2006 06:38 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for this summary, Col_Fury. I knew I could count on you to place a WWII flashback! 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 26 Oct 2006 01:04 am    Post subject: ka-zar in marvel fanfare 1-4
By cnowlin

Presently for Ka-Zar you have 

M/FAN 1-FB 
M/FAN 2 
M/FAN 3-BTS 
M/FAN 4 
COC 1 
COC 2-BTS 
COC 3-BTS 
KZ3 1 
KZ3 2 
KZ3 3 
KZ3 4 
KZ3 5 
KZ3 6 
KZ3 7 

Yet M/Fan 3 indicates a gap between issue 2 and 3 (note it is not a large gap as Angel leaves the Savage Land and contacts the X-Men for help against Sauron; there should be a sense of urgency)and references issues of KZ3, in particular KZ3 5, in which Tongah dies. Tongah had appeared in issue 2. It also mentions that he and Shanna had gone off to explore Pangea. 

I don't have the relevant Ka-Zar issues handy, but this suggests the first few issues of KZ3 belong between M/Fan 2 and M/Fan 3

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2006 08:38 am    
By Selaboc

Indeed. The Tongah appearance in KZ3 5 is a flashback to prior to Ka-zar and Shanna's visit to Pangea. Ka-zar and Shanna left the Savageland for Pangea in the first issue of KZ3. They did not return to the Savageland until KZ3 16, so it looks like the chronology should be something like this 

M/FAN 1-FB 
M/FAN 2 
KZ3 5 - FB 
KZ3 1 
. 
. 
. 
KZ316 
M/FAN 3-BTS 
M/FAN 4 
KZ3 17 

Not sure where the contest of Champions issues fit into this. 

That makes the gap probably not much more than a couple weeks of time in length (the Ka-zar stories pretty much follow one after the other with little apparent time between time), though it should be noted that the flashback in issue 5 gives the impresion that some length of time has passed since Tongah died which might stretch the gap a bit too far for the "sense of urgancy" you speak of. 

Alternately, I suppose, it might be possible to ignore the Pangea reference (I don't have the issues handy at the moment, so I can't check to see how the reference was made) in which case, only KZ3 5-FB needs to be placed into the gap between M/FAN 2 and 3

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 08 Aug 2006 02:15 am    Post subject: Human Torch 5B
By Col_Fury

Human Torch 5B 
-Fall 1941 
The Human Torch battles the Sub-Mariner as the world faces destruction! 

Appearances: 
Human Torch(Jim Hammond), Toro(Tom Raymond), Namor, Patriot(Jeff Mace), Angel, Kazar, Fen, Rathia, FDR, Winston Churchill, Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mussolini. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6 
Human Torch, Toro, Patriot, & Angel throw a going away party for their friend Casey, whos going to cover the war in Europe for consolidated press. Namor cant make it, because he got a call from his mother. On his way to Atlantis, Namor comes across Nazis and Russians fighting by boat and plane over the ocean, above his homeland. He diverts their attention and directs them to another part of the ocean, and dives down to his home to find the wreckage of the fight littered about. Buildings are destroyed, and his citizens are hiding in shelters. He meets his mother Fen, who introduces him to Rathia. Namor calls the other undersea races for a war council. Later at the war council, the undersea races decide to combine their power under Namor to end the war, but Rathia begins to give Namor other ideas. Meanwhile, Torch & Toro decide to follow Casey to Europe. 
Pg7-pg19pn6: next day 
Casey arrives in Russia, and steals a uniform to enable him to get to the front line in the Ukraine. Once there, he notices that the fighting is interrupted by giant whirlpools forming in the Dniester River. Both the Russians and Nazis suffer losses, but Casey is saved by the Torch. They find a British vessel to drop Casey off, where Casey reports what he saw, and hes reassigned to London. Meanwhile, Rathia continues to manipulate Namor. Thinking of the whirlpools, Torch & Toro pay Namor a visit on a hunch. Namor attacks them, revealing his plan for world domination, and captures Toro. Torch tries to warn Russia and Germany of Namors plan, but Hitler and Stalin both disregard the warning. Torch then goes to Africa to warn Kazar of Namors plan, so he calls his animal friends to build a boat in case of a flood. Torch then goes to London to have Casey warn the rest of the world of Namors plan, which hits the newspapers. No one takes it very seriously, but the Patriot convinces FDR that theres a threat, and Torch convinces Winston Churchill. 
Pg19pn7-pg24pn3:next day 
Torch begins to prepare London for the attack, but is captured by Namor. He begins to drug and brainwash the Torch. 
Pg24pn4-pg30pn2:some time later 
Namor shows the brainwashed Torch how theyll defeat the surface world. That night, a sick Toro escapes. 
Pg30pn3-pg34:next day 
Toro is found in London and is put in a hospital. That night, Namor and Torch begin their assault on the surface world. They attack Gibraltar, encounter and defeat British troops. Thinking its the Germans attacking, Mussolini sends in Italian troops, who are also defeated. 
Pg35-pg55pn3:next day, after midnight 
Namor attacks Africa,(good thing Kazar had that boat built!) as Torch attacks Russia. Torch snaps out of his brainwashing and goes to Canada to stop an attack there. Upset that Torch has switched sides, Namor attacks Torch, which ends in a stalemate. Torch returns to London as Namor attacks Berlin. Namors fleet engages Italys, and American Naval vessels try to join in. This upsets Namor, so he decides to attack America next by flooding Manhattan Island. Torch finds a way to stop more incoming water, which halts Namors fleet from invading America. 
Pg55pn4-pg60pn2:same day 
Torch chases Namor to the Statue of Liberty, where he knocks some sense into him. They return to Atlantis and destroy the giant turbines, and arrest Rathia. 
Pg60pn3-pg60pn7:next day 
Torch informs Namor that FDR has pardoned him and his people, but Rathia will stand trial as a war criminal. They go to London to visit Toro, but the hospital he was in had been bombed, and his body cant be found. 

References: 
Marvels #1 pg38-pg39 show Torch encountering Namor above a flooded Manhattan not shown in this issue. Being a new appearance for both of them, it would fit nicely between pg55pn3 & pg55pn4 of this issue. 

Im assuming that Toro is found in Human Torch 6, but I could be wrong. Anyone know for sure? 

And now, some chronology placement suggestions: 

Angel/Thomas Halloway (1940's hero) 
HUMAN TORCH 5A/3 
*HUMAN TOTCH 5B 
CV 1-FB 

Sub-Mariner/Namor MacKenzie 
 
HUMAN TORCH 5B pg1-pg55pn3 
*MARVELS pg38-pg39 
HUMAN TORCH 5B pg55pn4-pg60 
 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
 
HUMAN TORCH 5B pg1-pg55pn3 
*MARVELS pg38-pg39 
HUMAN TORCH 5B pg55pn4-pg60 
 

Toro/Tom Raymond 
 
YOUNG ALLIES 1 
*HUMAN TORCH 5B 
INV 29-FB 
 

Fen 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY-FB 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
CA:SL2 2 
CA:SL2 3 
CA:SL2 4 

I'm not seeing a listing for Fen, Namor's mother. She appears in this story, and later in Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty v2. She also appears in the third story in Marvel Comics 1 & it's FlashBack, where she tells Namor of how she met his dad. However, the first 8 pages of that story(which includes the FB) were originally published as MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY, and the last 4 pages were tacked on for publication in the thrid story in Marvel Comics 1.(according to Roy Thomas, anyway) She does not appear in the last four pages, only in the reprinted material. 

Kazar doesnt have a chronology yet, but Im sure Ill get around to him sooner or later. Also, Im holding off on real people for now, until I have the overall chronology of Marvels version of world events more-or-less nailed down. So Ill post suggestions for FDR, Churchill, Hitler, Mussolini, etc, eventually.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2006 09:44 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Fen is already listed in the MCP under "Princess Fen". 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2006 10:57 pm    
By Col_Fury

Hmmnn... 

I don't currently own Fantastic Four Annual 1 or Fantastic Four: Special Edition, so I'm not sure how MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY, it's FlashBack, or Human Torch 5B would fit in to all of that. 

I'll see if I can track down a copy of the Special Edition, and I'll probably pick up the first Essentials for the FF, and we'll see what happens. 

Thanks, Sean!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2006 11:30 pm    
By Col_Fury

I finally got around to cleaning out my e-mail, and found this note from Enda80 in regards to this analysis: 

Quote: 
>>>
Napoleon I appears in a brief fb to Waterloo, Caesar 
to his death by Brutus, Death appears observing the 
Axis leaders (the Official Handbook treats that as a 
literal appearance by Death, the bibliography lists 
that as her/his first appearance), and Mars appears on 
the second page of the story in shadow and later on in 
part 3 of the story-possibly this was intended as 
symboic, but as Namor worships Neptune, it could have 
been him there invisibly (similar to when he possessed 
Eric Masteron in an issue of the Avengers, he first 
appeared on Earth invisibly observing events). 

Caesar appears about five pages before the end of the 
story. Napoleon appeard in What If I#15 in a fb to the 
battle of Austerlitz *as it happened on Earth-616* 
(the battle as it happened on an alternate Earth was 
shown in contrast). 

Caesar has appeared in Motormouth and Killpower and 
elsewhere. 
<<<

Which brings up an interesting point. I interpreted the Caesar & Napoleon FBs as what Namor imagined those events to be like, not actual historical FBs. Namor is pondering the Torchs betrayal, and pictures these historical figures in thought balloons. Should these count as actual appearances for these guys in the Marvel Universe? 

As for Death & Mars, as alluded to above, I read these as symbolic appearances. Death appears over a battlefield as people are, well, dying, and makes a comment that the only winner in war is Death. A few pages later, Mars appears above another battlefield, much like Deaths appearance earlier, and comments that this is war. A few more pages later, Hitler appears above another battlefield, and the narration has this to say: In the midst of the battle of Berlin, rises the figure of Adolph Hitler, stern and brave and well it might be, for it is made of stone its model is far from the scene of strife! Its not presented as a statue, mind you its 'rising' over the battlefield. Do statues do that? 

Three large figures appearing over battlefields seems pretty symbolic to me. Not to mention that the opener page shows Namor, Hitler, Mussolini, & Death as the Four Horsemen. 

And yet, theres the All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe #3 that cites the events of this issue in Deaths entry. 

I suppose we could take the line it is made of stone literally and say thats a statue of Hitler, allowing for the Death & Mars appearances to be actual instead of symbolic but if so, Id say it would have to be for both, not one or the other. Any thoughts?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Aug 2006 01:38 am    
By Col_Fury

Fantastic Four: Special Edition reprints Fantastic Four Annual #1 with a 5 page insert of new story that replaces/expands pg18 of the Annual. Some of these new pages/panels duplicate information given on pg18 of FF@ 1. Ill number this new sequence pgs1-5. Given that, here are page/panel ranges for whats already in Fens chronology. 

PRINCESS FEN [ATLANTEAN] 
FF@ 1-FB pg18pn1 
FF:SE-FB pg1pn4 
FF@ 1-FB pg18pn2 
FF:SE-FB pg2pn1-pg2pn4 
FF@ 1-FB pg18pn3 
FF:SE-FB pg3pn2 
FF@ 1-FB pg18pn4-pg18pn6 
FF:SE-FB pg4pn2-pg4pn4 
CA:SL2 2 
 

There are new scenes not shown here that are shown in Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly & Saga of the Sub-Mariner. So 

PRINCESS FEN [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 1 pg1-pg10pn3 Atlantis attacked 
FF@ 1-FB pg18pn1 talks to father 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY-FB pg7pn6 receives orders 
SAGASM pg10pn5-pg11pn2 gets potion 
FF: SE pg1pn4 swims 
SAGASM 1 pg11pn3-pg11pn4 sees boat 
FF@ 1-FB pg18pn2 gets on boat 
SAGASM 1 pg11pn5-pg11pn6 walks on boat 
FF: SE pg2pn1 walks on boat 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY-FB pg8pn1 discovered 
FF: SE pg2pn2 approached 
SAGASM 1 pg11pn7-pg12 captured 
FF: SE pg2pn4 sees Leonard 
FF@ 1-FB pg18pn3 meets Leonard 
SAGASM 1 pg13-pg14pn3 Leonard talks about Fen 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY-FB pg8pn2 Fen swims 
SAGASM pg14pn4-pg16pn4 learns English 
FF@ 1-FB pg18pn4-pg18pn5 falls in love 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY-FB pg8pn3 reports to Emperor 
SAGASM 1 pg16pn5 marriage 
FF@1 FB pg18pn6 marriage 
SAGASM 1 pg16pn6-pg20 wedding night, etc 
FF: SE pg4pn1-pg4pn2 ship attacked 
SAGASM 1 pg21pn1 yells for Leonard 
FF: SE pg4pn3 mourns Leonard 
SAGASM 1 pg21pn2-pg22 Fen taken away, Namor born 
FF: SE pg4pn4 baby Namor 
N 20-FB young Namor 
SAGASM 2-FB raising Namor 
SAGASM 2 Namor brings back divers 
{MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY} tells Namor of his father 
SAGASM 5 pg1-pg16 Nazis attack Atlantis 
HUMAN TORCH 5/B 
CA:SL2 2 
CA:SL2 3 
CA:SL2 4 
SAGASM 5 pg17-pg22 end of WWII 
SAGASM 6 
N 39-FB 
N 36-FB 
{N 29} 
 

According to Roy Thomas, the FlashBack seen in Saga of the Sub-Mariner 2, and a lot of what was shown in SAGASM 2 duplicates information originally seen in SUB-MARINER COMICS 36-42. I think we'll have to wait until those issues are reprinted in Masterworks form before we can add those... 

Also, apparently the 'Namor encountering divers' scene originally shown in MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY was retold in SUB-MARINER COMICS 33(1954), and again in Sub-Mariner 38(1971). I don't know if either of those contain new information. 

A lot of the above new scenes for Fen are also new scenes for Namor. I'll be out of town for a few days, but don't worry, I'll post an updated chronology suggestion for Namor when I get back. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Sep 2006 03:08 pm    
By Col_Fury

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
SAGASM 1 Namor born 
FF: SE-FB infant Namor with Fen 
N 20-FB pg12 young Namor 
TTA 96-FB 
SAGASM 2-FB adventures of young Namor 
SAGASM 2 pg1-pg10 Namor grows ankle wings 
ORDER 6-FB Namor already has ankle wings 
SAGASM 2 pg11-pg17 goes to ship wreck 
{MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY} kills divers @ ship wreck 
SAGASM 2 pg21pn5-pg21pn6 go to the surface! 
MARVEL COMICS 1/3 pg9pn1-pg9pn2 meets with Dorma 
SAGASM 2 pg22 leave Atlantis 
MARVEL COMICS 1/3 pg9pn3-pg12 attacks a lighthouse 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 pg1pn1-pg1pn3 Namor swims to NY 
SAGASM 3 pg1-pg2 Namor thinks 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 pg1pn4-pg4pn2 attacks power plant 
SAGASM 3 pg7pn1-pg7pn4 Namor shot at 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 pg4pn3 crashes through window 
SAGASM 3 pg7pn5-pg10pn2 attacks police in street 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 pg4pn4-pg12 steals clothes, kidnaps, throws car 
SAGASM 3 pg10pn3-pg11pn2 Namor wreaks havoc 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 pg1-pg12pn7 Betty Dean & Nazis 
SAGASM 3 pg21pn2-pg21pn5 Namor talks to Betty alone 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 pg12pn8 Betty asks for help against Nazis 
SAGASM 3 pg21pn6-pg22pn4 shipmate pulls a gun 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/3 pg1pn1-pg2pn1 Betty asks again 
SAGASM 3 pg22pn5-pg22pn6 Namor agrees, conditionally 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/3 pg2pn2-pg10 Namor fights more Nazis 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/3 pg1 Namor talks to Emperor 
SAGASM 4 pg2pn2-pg2pn3 goes to NY 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/3 pg2-pg3pn2 Namor claims Statue of Liberty 
SAGASM 4 pg2pn3-pg2pn6 Namor begins attack 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/3 pg3pn3-pg6pn7 more attacking 
SAGASM 4 pg3pn3-pg3pn4 talks with Mayor LaGuardia 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/3 pg6pn8-pg10 attacks Mayor, Betty warns of Torch 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7-BTS 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8 havoc! 
SAGASM 4 pg6-pg9pn2 Namor & Torch negotiate 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/2 fight! 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9 pg1-pg7pn3 Namor wins 
SAGASM 4 pg15pn1-pg15pn3 there will be a rematch 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9 pg7pn4-pg20 Namor makes threats on TV, rematch 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10 truce 
SAGASM 4 pg22pn6-pg22pn8 Namor returns to sea 
HUMAN TORCH 2/2 
HUMAN TORCH 3/3 
HUMAN TORCH 4/3 
HUMAN TORCH 5A/3 
CA 423 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1 pg1-pg3 Nazis attack Atlantis 
SAGASM 5 pg1-pg5 fighting Nazis 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1 pg4-pg20pn2 fighting Nazis 
SAGASM 5 pg8-pg10pn4 Emperor dead 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1 pg20pn3-pg20pn6 begin to rebuild city 
INV 4-FB pg7pn5 Merrano approaches Namor 
SAGASM 5 pg10pn5-pg11pn2 1st official act, Namor bans Merrano 
INV 4-FB pg7pn6 Merrano led away 
SAGASM 5 pg11pn3-pg11pn4 Namor tells Fen hes siding w/ Allies 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1/2 Atlanteans are sick, Namor gets medication 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 2 Namor in Canada 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 2/2 Namor in Pennsylvania 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 3 Namor in Britain 
HUMAN TORCH 5/B 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4 Namor fights evil doctors 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4/2 Namor fights a Frankenstein-like creature 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 23 Namor fights the Shark 
INV 29-FB 
 

N 20-FB pg14 shows Namor teaming up with Namora. This occurs after MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82 in her chronology, and should be moved in Namors to match this. 

INV 4-FB needs to be moved a little earlier in Namors chronology as shown above, as evidenced in SAGASM 5, to occur before MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17, and after SUB-MARINER COMICS 1. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 23 has been moved forward by Roy Thomas to give Namor someone to fight in Invaders Annual 1. The footnote has this to say: *Due to war time priorities, Namors one-and-only encounter with the Shark as a smuggler was not chronicled until SUB-MARINER COMICS #23, 1947 - - Roy. I dont have a copy of SUB-MARINER COMICS 23, but I think its safe to assume in this case that Roy knows what hes talking about. Ive placed this just before INV 29-FB, similar to the CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22 placement in Caps chronology. Theyre both comics that have been moved forward, so they both occur as last appearances before the Invaders begin. 

Saga of the Sub-Mariner contains new appearances for the Human Torch, so: 

Human Torch/Jim Hammond 
INV 22-FB pg14pn4 
SAGASM 3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7 pg12pn6-pg12pn7 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8 clean up 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/2 pg1-pg11 clean up 
SAGASM 4 pg6-pg9pn2 Torch & Namor negotiate 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/2 pg12 fight! 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9 pg1-pg7pn3 Namor wins 
SAGASM 4 pg15pn1-pg15pn3 there will be a rematch 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9 pg7pn4-pg7pn7 Namor makes threats on TV 
SAGASM 4 pg16pn5-pg16pn7 Torch knows where to find Namor 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9 pg8-pg20 rematch 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10 truce 
SAGASM 4 pg22pn6-pg22pn8 Namor returns to sea 
INV 22-FB pg14pn5-pg17pn1 
HUMAN TORCH 2 

_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Sep 2006 08:58 am    
By Col_Fury

Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty v2 #3-FB has new scenes for both Namor & Fen. 

pg11pn1-FB 
Fen & Leonard McKenzie smooch on a moonlit night. 

pg11pn2-FB 
Fen in labor, Namor is crowning. 

pg11pn3-FB 
Namor is born, but he's tainted, half-human! 

pg11pn4-FB 
Fen watches as a teenage Namor(with ankle wings) fights a shark... for fun! 

Here are some placement suggestions: 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
*CA: SL2 3-FB pg11pn2-pg11pn3 
SAGASM 1 
FF: SE-FB 
N 20-FB pg12 
TTA 96-FB 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SAGASM 2 pg1-pg10 
ORDER 6-FB 
* CA: SL2 3-FB pg11pn4 
SAGASM 2 pg11-pg17 

PRINCESS FEN [ATLANTEAN] 
... 
FF@ 1-FB pg18pn4-pg18pn5 
*CA: SL2 3-FB pg11pn1 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY-FB pg8pn3 
... 
FF: SE pg4pn3 
SAGASM 1 pg21pn2-pg22pn3 
*CA: SL2 3-FB pg11pn2-pg11pn3 
SAGASM 1 pg22pn4-pg22pn8 
FF: SE pg4pn4 
... 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SAGASM 2 pg1-pg10 
*CA: SL2 3-FB pg11pn4 
SAGASM 2 pg11-pg22 
{MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY} 
...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2006 03:33 am    
By Col_Fury

I was able to find copies(well, reprints) of two of the specific 'young adventures of Namor' stories that Roy referenced in SAGASM 2: 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/2 pg1-pg3 
Byrrah dares Namor to spend time in a blizzard. He's attacked by dogs, and makes his way back home. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 pg1-pg3 
Namor & Fen are out on a stroll when the ice breaks and Fen falls. Namor discovers he can fly and saves her, and when they return home they notice little wings on Namor's ankles. 

Sub-Mariner Comics 36/2 was repeated in SAGASM 2-FB 

Sub-Mariner Comics 38/2 was repeated in SAGASM 2 pg7pn4-pg10pn1 

A suggested placement: 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
... 
TTA 96-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/2 
SAGASM 2 pg1-pg7pn3 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
SAGASM 2 pg10pn2-pg10pn5 
ORDER 6-FB 
... 

PRINCESS FEN [ATLANTEAN] 
... 
N 20-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/2 
SAGASM 2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
{MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY} 
...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 12:48 am    
By Col_Fury

Here are some suggested updates to some of Namor's supporting cast: 

PRENTISS, BETTY DEAN 
SAGASM 3 pg1-pg11pn3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 pg1-pg12pn7 
SAGASM 3 pg21pn2-pg21pn5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 pg12pn8 
SAGASM 3 pg21pn6-pg22pn4 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/3 pg1-pg2pn1 
SAGASM 3 pg22pn5-pg22pn6 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/3 pg2pn2-pg10 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/3 pg1-pg5 
SAGAHT 2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/3 pg6-pg10 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/2 
SAGASM 4 pg15pn1-pg15pn3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9 pg1-pg7 
SAGASM 4 pg16pn5-pg16pn 7 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS pg8-pg20 
MARVELS 1 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10 
HUMAN TORCH 3/3 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1/2 
INV 29-FB 
INV 4 
M/U 1 
SAGASM 6 
{SUB-M 8} 
 

U-MAN/MERRANO 
SAGASM 2 
INV 4-FB pg7pn5 
SAGASM 5 
INV 4-FB pg7pn6 
{INV 3-FB} 
... 

DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 2 pg1-pg21 
MARVEL COMICS 1 pg1-pg9pn2 
SAGASM 2 pg 22 
MARVEL COMICS 1 pg9pn3-pg12 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10/3 
SAGASM 5 
 

BYRRAH [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/2 
SAGASM 2 
SAGASM 5 
SAGASM 6 
M/:LG 3 
 

KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 5 
SAGASM 6 
M/: LG 3 
 

EMPEROR THAKORR [ATLANTEAN] 
FF: SE pg1 
SAGASM 1 pg1-pg10 
FF@ 1-FB 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY-FB 
FF: SE pg3 
SAGASM 1 pg22 
SAGASM 2 pg1-pg17 
{MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY} 
SAGASM 2 pg21pn5-pg21pn6 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10/3 
HUMAN TORCH 3/3 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1 
SAGASM 5 
SAGASM 6
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Note that Krang, as per narration in Saga of SM#1, was bts, since he led the soldiers who attacked the Oracle.

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 04 Oct 2006 07:50 pm    Post subject: X-Men: The Unlikely Saga of Xavier, Magneto, and Stan (XIII)
By Jason Doty

One sunny day, Stan Lee is siting outside trying to look busy working to keep his wife off his back. Xavier shows up in a x-jet and explains that he needs help. Just then, Magneto shows up and Xavier explains that they are both there for the same reason. As they try to explain, Stan keeps babbling anoying Magneto and Xavier both. To explain there situation Xavier takes him on a tour of X-Men history. Stan finaly gets it, the X-Men adventures keep getting tougher and tougher and they both want a vacation. Stan is returned to reality and writes a story of them on vacation enjoying a day at the beach. Later, Stan calls Marvel with an idea that starts off with Magneto and Xavier at the beach. 

This is a continuity stretch because Xavier reveals that Stan Lee is their creater and started chronicaling their adventures in 1963. It would'nt be the first time that Marvel characters broke the forth wall or whatever, but it will take some one more clever to come up with an explanation for this one. 

If I had to place it chronologicaly, It would have to occur toward the end of Excalibur v.3 series, Xavier crippled, working with Magneto. 

I think this may have ties to the Stan meets... stories that are coming up.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 10:27 am
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
This is a continuity stretch 
<<<

No kiddin'? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 11:30 am  
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, I think this - and the Spider-Man story from last week - must be non-canon. 

The fact that the characters are acknowledging their fictional status isn't the problem. Deadpool and the She-Hulk do that all the time. 

But these are both stories in which characters meet their literal creator, and it's presented as something essentially normal. Stan as creator clearly exists outside the continuity he created. And it's not like the notorious Animal Man meets Grant Morrison story at DC, which was presented explicitly as a disruption to reality. 

We're dealing with stories where the concept of continuity is effectively suspended, and it doesn't make a great deal of sense to try and hammer these into canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 11:30 am    Post subject: Marvel Monsters Fin Fang Four
By SKleefeld
Director

Well, I skimmed through the book on the rack, and since the FF had a prominent role in it, I figured I'd pick it up. And since no one else laid claim to the issue analysis, I'll do a quick summary... 

The issue starts with Googam, Son of Goom wrecking havoc on the city. The FF soon appear and whap Googam around a bit, knocking him unconscious. We cut to a newscast in which we learn that Mr. Fantastic is heading up a parole project for integrating the classic Atlas monsters into society. His plan is basically to shrink them to human size from their exile on Monster Isle and then help them get jobs in normal society. The first four test cases will be Googam, Fin Fang Foom, Gorgilla, and Elektro. 

So Fin Fang Foom becomes the head chef at a Chinese restaurant in the Baxter Building. Elektro helps Willie Lumpkin deliver the mail. Gorgilla becomes part of the maintenance staff. And Googam is a car park attendant. The first three do adequate work on their jobs (although Fin Fang Foom gets a bit tempermental with the wait staff), but Googam fumes quite a bit at his indignity. He starts hearing the voice of his father, who convinces him to break into one of Reed's labs and activate a machine to bring him back. 

Naturally, this is a ploy. It's actually Tim Boo Ba, who barges in with an army intent on conquering Earth. Klaxons go off and the monsters opt to help out since the FF are off battling Annihilus in Pittsburg. Tim Boo Ba manages to grow to Godzilla size before Googam wrecks the machine he was using to absorb ambient energy, so the Fin Fang Four borrow a Fantasticar to go put the kibosh on the attack. They manage to knock him out from the inside, climb out of his nose, and become national heroes. 

The issue ends with Fin Fang Foom playing chess with Mr. Fantastic, while discussing the philosophical implications of being a dying breed. 

Appearances By: Googam, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch II, Thing, J. Jonah Jameson, She-Hulk, Fin Fang Foom, Gorgilla, Elektro, Roberta, HERBIE, Tim Boo Ba, Willie Lumpkin, Annihilus (Behind-the-Scenes) 

Okay, this is going to be a difficult one to place. It's either really early in the FF's career, or relatively current. 

Reasons Why It Might Be Really Early: 
1) Sue is clearly treated in a 1960s fashion here. She's got the hair flip, but when she's in the battle with Googam, all she does is pilot the Fantasticar and ask, "Shall I turn invisible, Ben?" To which Ben replies, "Er... Sure... why not?" Very condescending to be sure, and not a discussion that would normally take place in a current timeframe. 

2) After defeating Googam, Ben notes that "the 'age of monsters' is about over thanks to us." Clearly a reference to when Marvel's books were largely populated with BEMs. 

3) Willie Lumpkin is shown delivering the mail. If this is recent, then he's come out of retirement YET AGAIN. 

Reasons Why It Might Be Later: 
1) Jen Walters appears briefly. There's no reference to her being She-Hulk, but she is noted as an attorney, so that part should at least be after she graduates. 

2) Monster Island was destroyed at the end of FF #1. It does indeed show up much later (with no explanation) but it seems odd that it would be used as a base for depositing rogue monsters so soon after it was destroyed. 

3) Fin Fang Foom notes that he's just looking for quiet retirement. While that's not to say that he doesn't change his mind later and start using Iron Man as a chew toy, but he IS only seven feet tall at the end of the issue. 

4) Roberta and HERBIE make appearances. 

5) A newspaper is dated "October 2005". (It's actually marked as a Saturday, for Paul's reference.) 

So, here's my thinking. This story actually covers three distinct time periods. The first three pages feature the FF fighting Googam. On close inspection, one can see that Johnny and Sue's hairstyles are more reflective of the early Kirby stuff than their appearances later in the book. Furthermore, Ben is clearly drawn differently between his early and later appearances in the book. For this sequence, his hide is bulbous and looks like a collection of pebbles or round stones. Later, he rock-hide is more angular and brick-like. These both suggest to me that a LOT more time passes in this book than is immediately apparent. 

The next time period is the TV sequence. It's noted that Gorgilla is being granted parole after a five-year legal battle. While this suggests it's five years after the previous sequence, Gorgilla was actually captured before the FF ever formed, so there's some question of timing there. As noted earlier, Jen Walters appears here AS an attorney, so it's at least after that. Fin Fang Foom appears here, already shruken to a relatively human-sized height. 

The rest of the story occurs over a four day period six weeks after that broadcast, as noted in the caption boxes. The monsters have all been evidently working for a little while if not the whole six weeks. Googam notes in his journal that it is "Dec 1st", which seems to contradict the "October 2005" notation on the newspaper later. Both of which are somewhat contradicted by multiple scenes featuring folks wearing shorts in a park filled with bushy, green trees. The final scene is noted as occuring on a Saturday, the same day the paper comes out noteing the Monsters' heroism. Curiously, the Saturday paper also notes that Googam "will appear on the David Letterman Show tonight" so maybe it's the REALLY, REALLY late Friday edition.  

Okay, so where does that leave us? 

MMFFF p 1-3 
I suggest that this must occur sometime between FF 3 (when the FF get their uniforms) and FF 22 (when they realize that Mole Man is still alive -- I don't think they'd willingly drop monsters on his island if they thought he was still a threat). Given the comment about ending the "age of monsters", I would suggest placing this between FF 3 and 4. While Marvel did still publish largely monster stories for another six months or so (real time), the addition of costumes and the complete destruction of Miracle Man's monster becomes a metaphoric turning point for the direction of the comic industry. Appearances by: Googam, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Human Torch II, Thing 

MMFFF 4-5 
There's not really much to work with here. We'll have to look at the remainder of the story and work backwards for this. Appearances by: Mr. Fantastic, Fin Fang Foom, Jen Walters, J. Jonah Jameson 

MMFFF p 6-28 
Appearances By: Googam, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch II, Thing, Fin Fang Foom, Gorgilla, Elektro, Roberta, HERBIE, Tim Boo Ba, Willie Lumpkin, Annihilus (Behind-the-Scenes) 
This seems largely inconsequential to Tim Boo Ba's, Googam's, Elektro's and Gorgilla's chronologies. It's simply sometime after their Atlas appearances. The FF's appearances, too, are pretty innocuous and can drop in just about anywhere fairly easily. Fin Fing Foom seems to be the biggest problem, though, as he's evidently seeking a "quiet retirement." He's killed in Thor v2 #80, so it's before that.  We also have a brief cameo of him on Monster Island in JLA/Avengers #1, during which Wonder Woman gives him a good trouncing. So I would guess somewhere between those two issues. 

I would also suggest this occurs prior to A3 63, which directly leads to She-Hulk starting to have some serious problems. She's clearly still an in-control and prominent enough attorney to be asked to appear on TV opposite Jameson and Richards after all. I'm going to further suggest that this occurs after Thing: Freakshow since having so many monsters around would likely keep Ben from getting down on himself. In fact, one could easily see Reed's idea to bring the paroled monsters to work in the Baxter Building as a direct effort to ease Ben's turmoil, although this is never expressly stated anywhere in the book. 

That puts us somewhere in the vicinity of FF3 60: the nine-cent Waid/Ringo issue. FF3 57-59 are pretty tight and self-contained, so we can't really squeeze anything in there. But what we could do is drop this in right before FF3 60. That same newpaper I keep mentioning has a small note in the bottom corner: "Fantastic Four Save Universe Again -- See page 48". This suggests that the FF's q-rating isn't terribly high, and might be part of the impetus for Reed hiring a PR firm in FF3 60. That also gives us a nice hole prior to FF3 57 to drop the TV sequence into. 

So collectively, we're looking at something like... 

FF 2 
FF 3 
MMFFF p 1-3 
FF 4 
... 
T:FS 4 
MMFFF p 4-5 
FF3 57 
FF3 58 
FF3 59 
MMFFF p 6-28 
FF3 60 
A3 63 

Whew! That was supposed to go quickly, but that ended up taking more research than I anticipated. There are some assumptions I'm working with that aren't really expressly noted anywhere, so feel free to kick this around a bit if someone notices a detail that might help solidify the placement more concretely. 

[Note: Editted to correct a mis-named villain. I somehow confused Miracle Man with Mr. Miracle.  ]

Last edited by SKleefeld on 20 Oct 2005 03:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 12:53 pm    
By Somebody

Won't suggesting only five years pass between early Lee/Kirby FF and Waid FF give Paul B a coronary? 

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 03:22 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Heh. I thought of that, but it only says that Gorgilla's been in a five-year legal battle. Which means that it's been five years since he filed suit, not five years since he was captured. So that really doesn't have too much of an impact on when this has to take place. 

This IS Gorgilla, keep in mind; he's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. He might've sat on legal action for a decade or two without realizing that he could sue!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 06:24 pm    
By Enda80

"His plan is basically to shrink them to human size from their exile on Monster Isle and then help them get jobs in normal society." 

Quite a few Atlas era monsters were seen on Monster Isle in Warlock and the Infinity Watch#7 and Marvel Swimsuit Special 1993. (One of the monsters from X and the magic typewriter, as well as a monster resembling Groot in an Alpha Flight's Auroa picture. Also, Spragg seems to have shown up in a Gamora picture) 

Also, Conspiracy#1 or #2 seems to indicate that the US government had dumped monsters such as Gigantus and Tricephalous on Monster Island (there was a picture of some of them with narration). Of course, Marvel Universe#4-7 showed that the Deviants had some part in it as well. 

So now we have an explanation. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/zzutak.htm 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/gigant.htm 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/zzutak.htm 

Michael Hoskin notes that one of those monsters on Monster Isle from Warlock and the Infinity Watch#7 resembled Googam or Goom. How about that?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2005 08:50 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for doing this analysis, Sean. 

Quote: 
The rest of the story occurs over a four day period  


Can you break up the analysis of pages 6-28 into daily segments? I take it that pages 1-3 and pages 4-5 each occur during just one day. 

If pages 6-28 end up occurring between FF3 59 and 60, then I can create (just barely) a four-day period on the calendar to accommodate these pages -- on July 16-19 of Year 21. That last day turns out to be a Friday, not a Saturday, but would support your theory concerning the Letterman reference.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2005 03:57 am
By Paul O'Brien
Director

This really has nothing to do with chronology, but much to my surprise, I thought this was a lovely little issue. Elektro and his mighty 32K computer brain are just... sweet.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2005 09:16 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Thanks for doing this analysis, Sean. 
<<<

No sweat. Been a while since I've done a "proper" analysis. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Can you break up the analysis of pages 6-28 into daily segments? 
<<<

Pages 6-7 
It's noted as "Six Weeks" after the TV broadcast. Johnny tosses his keys to Googam and makes some rude comments. Gorgilla's in the background, sweeping. Googam goes home to his dingy apartment, writes in his journal and hears from what he thinks is his father. 

Pages 8-12 
The caption notes it's the "Next Day." Elektro is helping Willie Lumpkins deliver packages and he meets Roberta. Ben notices the twinkle in his eye and offers to help the two hook up. 
Meanwhile, Reed and Sue are at the Green Wok, eating dinner. Gorgilla is washing windows outside and Fin Fang Foom starts a ruckus in the kitchen over some screwed up orders. Reed has a chat with Fin over the appropriateness of the actions and suggest they play a game of chess on Saturday in Central Park, while Ben convinces Elektro to ask Roberta out on a date. 

Pages 13-26 
Another caption box notes it's the "Next Day." The Fantastiflare goes off and Johnny takes off to fight Annihilus in Pittsburg. We see Elektro and Roberta on a date in the park (full moon, BTW) as Googam gets Gorgilla to help break into Reed's lab. The alarms go off and Fin finds out from Gorgilla what's going on. Also hearing the alarm, Roberta takes Elektro back to the Baxter Building, and we get an all-out battle between the hordes of Tim Boo Ba and the other monsters. (Gorgilla notes here that he's "having good old American Firday night fun!") The Fin Fang Four follow Tim out to the... bay? Ocean? River? It's a large body of water, at any rate. Tim's soon defeated. 

Page 27 
Full page splash of the front page of the newspaper, dated "October 2005 Saturday". I think it's the Daily Examiner but we only see Daily Ex at the top. There are four articles shown: one notes the defeat of Tim, one notes Googam's upcoming appearance on Letterman, one says that Gorgilla's been found on the Statue of Liberty, and one has Willie Lumpkin taking credit for teaching Elektro everything he knows. There's also a small note citing an article covering the FF saving the universe (presumably from Annihilus) that appears on page 48. 

Page 28 
Reed and Fin play chess in the park. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I take it that pages 1-3 and pages 4-5 each occur during just one day. 
<<<

Yes, they're both very short bits. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
This really has nothing to do with chronology, but much to my surprise, I thought this was a lovely little issue. Elektro and his mighty 32K computer brain are just... sweet. 
<<<

I agree. There were several bits that reminded me of Harvey Kurtzman's stuff. Some of the facial expressions were priceless -- I particularly liked Ben's range of emotions as Elektro asked Roberta out.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2005 08:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the clarifications, Sean. I'll plug pages 6-28 into that four-day slot in July I mentioned (despite the December and October references, about which I'm not overly concerned, since those references contradict one another anyway and the warm weather clues support the summer placement). This would put pages 6-28 between FF3 59 and 60 as you suggest. However, placing pages 4-5 "six weeks" earlier than that will put it earlier in the FF's chronology than the point you suggest -- sometime before FF3 55 and Reed's and Sue's June anniversary just before then in FF3 50/4. Hopefully that's not a problem.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Oct 2005 08:10 pm    
By Enda80

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
[Note: Editted to correct a mis-named villain. I somehow confused Miracle Man with Mr. Miracle.  ] 
<<<

Mr. Miracle from Cage#13 or #14? Was Mr. Miracle ever seen in action? 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/corporat.htm#Miracle

Last edited by Enda80 on 22 Oct 2005 08:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Oct 2005 08:30 pm  
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
However, placing pages 4-5 "six weeks" earlier than that will put it earlier in the FF's chronology than the point you suggest -- sometime before FF3 55 and Reed's and Sue's June anniversary just before then in FF3 50/4. Hopefully that's not a problem. 
<<<

As long as we keep Fin Fing Foom's appearance after JLA/Avengers, we should be good. Like I said, the FF's appearance in MMFFF is relatively innocuous and can be dropped in quite a number of places with no problems.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2005 10:29 am    
By Somebody

Actually, having read it the FFF timeline's a bit skewish. 

Presumably he got taken to Monster Isle by the US Navy after his Iron Man v3 (c. #18) appearance. How can there be five years between that and this = topicalise it. (I'd ignore what Thor said though - throwaway stuff like that never sticks. It'll have been Some Other Dragon) 

And it can't be before Search for She-Hulk if it's present-day, since Jen's locked in SH form until then ('sides, the premise works better with the Superhuman Law firm). 

Agree with Paul O though - fun issue 

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2005 04:17 pm    
By Somebody

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Presumably he got taken to Monster Isle by the US Navy after his Iron Man v3 (c. #18) appearance. How can there be five years between that and this = topicalise it.  
<<<

It doesn't actually say Fin Fang Foom's been there for five years. The line is: "Gorgilla is just one of four monsters to be granted parole this afternoon after a five year legal battle." He could have joined the lawsuit when it was already in progress. Given the way American lawyers work, it's not much of a stretch to believe that, having found one client, the lawyers in question went around signing up any remotely coherent monsters they could find, as and when they arrived.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2005 04:59 pm    
By Somebody

"Whose ceaseless legal challenges..." and "...all those years" 

Besides, have a look at the alternatives - Gorgilla, who's barely coherent, Elektro and his 32K of RAM, and Googam, 'nuff said.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2005 06:28 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
"Whose ceaseless legal challenges..." and "...all those years" 
<<<

I think those both would easily fall under the "hyperbole" category. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Besides, have a look at the alternatives - Gorgilla, who's barely coherent, Elektro and his 32K of RAM, and Googam, 'nuff said. 
<<<

Not really, no. All it takes is for one of them to have a lawyer interested in pursuing litigation for the sake of the spotlight. I mean, c'mon! That's where part of the humor is -- that the biggest idiot among them, the guy who's barely coherent, is the primary litigant. 

You want to bring up She-Hulk, look at the latest issue for an example of the exact same thing. Mal Book starts threatening to sue the Young Avengers on behalf of her cliennts before Ox and Boomerang can even think of a response.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2005 08:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

SKleefeld said: 
>>>
As long as we keep Fin Fing Foom's appearance after JLA/Avengers 
<<<

That's not a problem... 


Somebody said: 
>>>
And it can't be before Search for She-Hulk if it's present-day, since Jen's locked in SH form until then ('sides, the premise works better with the Superhuman Law firm).  
<<<1

But that IS a problem. The Search for She-Hulk occurs a year after the space between FF3 59 and 60 in which Sean proposes placement for MMFFF. If this has to go after A3 76, then we're up to at least FF 509 in the FF's chronology.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2005 11:00 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Somebody said: 
>>>
And it can't be before Search for She-Hulk if it's present-day, since Jen's locked in SH form until then ('sides, the premise works better with the Superhuman Law firm).  
<<<

But that IS a problem. The Search for She-Hulk occurs a year after the space between FF3 59 and 60 in which Sean proposes placement for MMFFF. If this has to go after A3 76, then we're up to at least FF 509 in the FF's chronology. 
<<<

Dang, I had forgotten about She-Hulk's inability to switch to Jen. 

Well, this doesn't pose a problem for the FF. We can still drop this in fairly innocuously just about anywhere. It would actually have to be at least after FF 511 since Ben is dead from 508-511. The team is out of the Baxter Building through FOUR 1-12 and it doesn't make much sense from a story perspective to have it MMFFF occur while the FF aren't doing so well with the public. So I'm thinking we should place this sometime around Avengers Disassembled or later. Possibly as late as FF 526, when their Q-rating has improved to the point where the government would take legal suggestions from Reed. 

I'm a little unclear on where exactly the flashback from T2 80 needs to get dropped, though, and how that fits in with everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2005 11:11 am    
By Somebody

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
I'm a little unclear on where exactly the flashback from T2 80 needs to get dropped, though, and how that fits in with everything. 
<<<

There's no "flashback" in Thor #80 to this, just a throwaway "oh, BTW, I killed FFF and used his bones for this" from Thor (not a literal quote, obviously ). I say we write that off as Thor killing the wrong dragon. ('Sides, this ends with FFF at human size and showing no desire to regrow - quite the opposite in fact - which wouldn't make for a seamless transition) 

Then again, it depends on whether you assume that the FFF in Tempest Fugit was real or something Nightmare recreated into FFF as well.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2005 10:07 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Ooo! Brilliant idea... how about we place pp. 4-5 right after X-Force #5-6? Perhaps Ben and Johnny's assistance in fighting Skornn (an updated BEM, if ever I saw one) prompted Reed to think about all those old Atlas monsters stuck on Monster Isle. Then, the remainder of the book can occur "six weeks" after that, however that might fall on Paul's calendar.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2005 02:09 pm    
By Somebody

Doesn't that run it into or past HoM? Not fatal, but might get in the way. 

Oh, and unless you plan to push She-Hulk v2 #1 back before XForce5, doesn't work. It's established in SHv2 #1 that her law firm's been shut down since SH11/12, and SH2 #1 is therefore her first day back. 

And what's a "BEM" anyway? Big [something] Monster?

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2005 02:49 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Doesn't that run it into or past HoM? Not fatal, but might get in the way. 
<<<

Not really relevant one way or another as far as I can tell. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Oh, and unless you plan to push She-Hulk v2 #1 back before XForce5, doesn't work. It's established in SHv2 #1 that her law firm's been shut down since SH11/12, and SH2 #1 is therefore her first day back. 
<<<

This isn't a problem. Jen's cited as an attorney, not necessarily with any firm. So as long as Jen's legal license is still valid, it's irrelevant where she works. Or if she's even working at all. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
And what's a "BEM" anyway? Big [something] Monster? 
<<<

"Bug-Eyed Monster" It's classic pop-culture shorthand that was used a lot in the 1930s, 40s and 50s to suggest the genericism with which many alien creatures were imbued. Rather applicable to many of the Atlas monsters as well, IMO, even if the monsters don't all actually have bug-eyes.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Nov 2005 09:14 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Maybe this is a dumb question, but is there anything preventing us from placing pages 4-28 in a really current time frame, even after House of M?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 12:15 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Maybe this is a dumb question, but is there anything preventing us from placing pages 4-28 in a really current time frame, even after House of M? 
<<<

Just that Fin Fang Foom was supposedly killed by Thor. We could say that Thor was mistaken and killed the wrong Dragon. Or we could assume that something happens to bring FFF back to life. Or we could assume that Loki took control of Thor briefly, causing him to intentionally lie about killing FFF. But I tend to run with Occam's Razor if at all possible; in this case, it would be much simpler to take both stories at face value and assume MMFFF occurs before T80v2 FB.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 02:15 pm    
By Somebody

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
But I tend to run with Occam's Razor if at all possible; in this case, it would be much simpler to take both stories at face value and assume MMFFF occurs before T80v2 FB. 
<<<

In which case, it can't occur in your suggested placement after XFrce 6, surely. Thou contradicteth thyself 

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:08 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

No, I'm just speaking out of ignorance. As I noted earlier in the thread, I have absolutely no point of reference for where the Thor flashback occurs relative to anything else, and no one has mentioned where that event might fall chronologically. 

So, as far as I know, it could very well happen after next month's issues.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 05:38 pm   
By Somebody

Well, the Thor thing absolutely must occur before Hercules #1 (although, as I said, it's a reference rather than a flashback - we see nothing of the fight in question). In addition, Cap and Iron Man in Thor #80 and #81 are apparently drawn from before A500.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Nov 2005 10:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, I think I can get pages 4-5 of MMFFF (is there a #1 on this standalone?) right after FF 513/2, with She-Hulk appearing there between S-H3 2 and 3 (the latter of which also features the Thing), and Fin Fang Foom appearing in MMFFF before T2 80 (7-22). 

Then I think I can get six weeks to pass before the rest of MMFFF, which could go before Reed's appearance in DD2 56, which in turn is before FOUR 1. 

How does this look as far as character chronologies go?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 09:31 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Well, I think I can get pages 4-5 of MMFFF (is there a #1 on this standalone?) right after FF 513/2, with She-Hulk appearing there between S-H3 2 and 3 (the latter of which also features the Thing), and Fin Fang Foom appearing in MMFFF before T2 80 (7-22). 

Then I think I can get six weeks to pass before the rest of MMFFF, which could go before Reed's appearance in DD2 56, which in turn is before FOUR 1. 

How does this look as far as character chronologies go? 
<<<

Okay, Paul, I think we REALLY need to see the updates to your calendar! The notes I have put Reed's appearance in DD2 56 before FOUR 1, which I have before S-H3 2. I then have FF 513/2 after that, but before S-H3 3. 

Now I fully admit to possibly missing a message or two which may have updated why things need to occur differently than what I've got, but it looks like our notes on these issues have them almost in reverse order of one another! I can't imagine that I've missed THAT much discussion on the board, especially if the FF were involved! 

My "notes" on the chronologies are all over at my web site in the Chronology DB section. Is there any way to compare that against whatever you've got squirrelled away on your hard drive, Paul?

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Nov 2005 09:59 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The notes I have put Reed's appearance in DD2 56 before FOUR 1, which I have before S-H3 2. I then have FF 513/2 after that, but before S-H3 3.  
<<<

I've used temporal references and chronologies of other titles to help determine placement, and I don't think it messes up FF chronology, but correct me if I'm wrong. 

FF 512-513 features an opening weekend at an outdoor water park; I've placed this on May 31-June 1. 

FF 512/2-513/2 is placed next, based not only on the fact that this story shares the same books as FF 512-513, but also because Sue talks to Alicia about her relationship with Reed since their return from Latveria. I'd hesitate to place a bunch of FOUR between the end of that Latverian story arc in FF 511 and FF 512/2. June 8-14 for this story. 

She-Hulk placement depends a lot on Avengers and Spider-Man chronologies. Having taken those chronologies into consideration, I've placed S-H3 3 on June 20-23. (I've had to assign the June dates in S-H3 4 to the comparable July dates.) 

Daredevil chronology has been discussed quite a bit, and after a lot of time dealing with that, DD2 56-FB seems to fit well on July 31. And I actually agree with you that DD2 56-FB goes before FOUR 1. 

Of course, as we've discussed, we have FOUR 1 occurring on Franklin's birthday, which I believe the Index established as late summer -- I have August 23. 

I think the calendar will give an overall view at all the temporal and chronological clues that weave the whole tapestry together...but I really have to deal with straightening out the last several months leading up to House of M before I post it. Dare I post before SECWAR 5 comes out?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 08:35 am    
By Somebody

FFF will be turning up in Nextwave 

I think that Thor reference has to be considered apocryphal now.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 01:10 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I think the calendar will give an overall view at all the temporal and chronological clues that weave the whole tapestry together...but I really have to deal with straightening out the last several months leading up to House of M before I post it. Dare I post before SECWAR 5 comes out? 
<<<

Maybe you could post a draft of certain portions, for us to go over? I seem to remember that before we switched over to this new message board last year, you, (and Jeph as well) would post big chronology outlines, to be discussed...there was an X-men outline, and a Spiderman outline...maybe we could see some of those again, along with maybe an Fantastic Four outline, and a Daredevil/Punisher outline, (the last one being a request from myself...)  

The whole updated calender could be posted on the MCP Calender page in December, after Secret War 5, (and whatever else is needed) has come out...but I have to agree with Sean, it might be a good idea to start pouring over some rough drafts now...but that's just me. December is just around the corner, (unless Secret War 5 gets delayed again...  )
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Nov 2005 05:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The problem is that everything is integrated in the draft. I'd have to go in and block and copy selected portions for review, and that's not something I'd care to spend time on right now. (Sorry, guys.) The major thing I need to do right now is reorganize huge chunks of the last several months to reflect my new theory about nine (rather than six) months passing between Disassembled and the Raft breakout. And that has implications for just about every title. 

I'm hoping that if I post the whole thing, folks can see the big picture, which may save some questions about "why this" and "what about" that. And it may expose problems that might not otherwise be evident while dealing with parts separately. 

Soon...soon... 

-- And for those wondering about that first story arc in FOUR, I've had to condense it down to about two months (August to October), ignoring some temporal references, so that we could have FF 517 happen on Halloween. As we know, any story arc involving months of MU time and that tie up characters and prevent appearances in other titles is likely to be constricted to make stories line up chronologically -- e.g. the "year" in DD2, the Enemy of the State story arc, etc.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Nov 2005 07:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
FFF will be turning up in Nextwave 
I think that Thor reference has to be considered apocryphal now.  
<<<

Hmm. I'm inclined to agree, unless Monica Rambeau appears in Nextwave prior to Disassembled, and I doubt that. 

So...nothing to prevent MMFFF from occurring closer to the present, then, right?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Nov 2005 04:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

For what it's worth, this week's MARVEL MONSTERS: FROM THE FILES OF ULYSSES BLOODSTONE takes the line that FIN FANG FOUR takes place in the present, and that Fin Fang Foom somehow recovered from his apparent death at the hands of Thor. 

(And you've got to love an issue that includes information about Gargantus, Giganto, Gog, Googam, Goom, Gorgilla, Gorgolla, Gormuu, Grogg, Groot and Grottu. They really had a wide range of names back in those days.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2006 12:29 pm    
By Somebody

I was rereading this earlier today (just for fun), and noticed something; remember that "October 2005" on the newspaper? The previous day, Googam's journal entry is for "Dec 1st"  [And Paul B wonders why some of us don't bother with temporal references ] 

[Oh, and as an aside there's due to be a followup Fin Fang Four story in this year's Marvel Holiday Special by the same creative tea]

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 11 Oct 2006 03:59 am    Post subject: Punisher: The Tyger
By JLH

THE PUNISHER: THE TYGER #1 [Feb 2006] 
Writer: Garth Ennis 
Artist: John Severin 
"The Tyger" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" (also in multiple Flashbacks) 
CASTLE, CHRISTIE (BTS in FB) 
CASTLE, FRANK JR. (BTS in FB) 
CASTLE, MARIA (BTS in FB) 
Lots of unnamed mob guys "the entire top echelon of New York's foremost family. Boss and Underboss, a half-dozen captains, even the consigliere" (all die) 

Other characters (all are in FB ONLY): 
Mr Castiglione (Frank Castle's father, first appearance. Also in FB within this FB.) 
Mrs Castiglione (Frank Castle's mother, first appearance.) 
Lauren Buvoli (girl Frank has a crush on. Kills herself) 
Sal Buvoli (Lauren's Marine Private brother. Also as a Sergeant corpse in second FB.) 
Tony Buvoli (Lauren's father. His wife, Angie, is BTS) 
Father David (priest and teacher of a poetry class) 
Vincent Rosa (slimeball who knocks girls up. Yes, that's his character entirely. dies) 
Albert Rosa (his dad, mafioso. also dies) 
Sue Carmenelli (Friend of Lauren who got knocked up by Vincent. Kills herself) 
Tim Donegan (brother of Katie (BTS), who got knocked up by Rosa, too. their father is BTS. Why am I mentioning these people? Dear Jeebus, I'm getting all Enda all of a sudden with the details.) 


Summary: While staking out his old neighborhood, Frank recalls a time when he was a child. When a girl he had a crush on killed herself, because she'd seen her friend kill herself, both of them having gotten knocked up by local mobster son Vincent Rosa. Frank's love of poetry, particularly the fearful symmetry of William Blake's "The Tyger", helps to sculpt his darker persona. He listened in on his parents discussing these events, and where his father and the other fathers tried to enact revenge and failed, Frank set out to deal with it. But he was beaten to it by the girl's brother, a Marine he idolized. Frank watched as Vincent was brutually beaten and burned before being buried alive. Later, Frank came face to face with a tiger, which appeared to see him as much a predator as he was. Or something. 

Flashbacks: The main story is told in a FB, as noted above. A FB within the FB occurs when Frank recalls seeing tigers at the Bronx Zoo with his father once. After the main FB story ends, there's a brief second FB (Frank's early time in Nam), and a third (Frank sees tiger in Nam). 

Continuity notes: Apparently, Frank jr died instantly, his head even fell off during transport. Maria made it to the hospital, but her heart gave out. Christie was still alive, but the medics felt she had no hope and presumably let her die. Ennis setting up some sort of Bucky-esque retcon here, maybe? 

We've never seen Frank's parents before now. We don't learn their names, but we learn his father was a Marine once. He fought at Iwo and had more than one Purple Heart and a Bronze Star. Frank had a brother who was stillborn, named Michael, and was born when Frank was about 7. Ennis setting up "Brother of Punisher" here, too? But I kid the MAX line. 

Speaking of which, Frank makes mention of Firebase Valley Forge, which ties to BORN. 

Goof: Once again, it's claimed Frank only did three tours in Vietnam. He did six, actually, by changing his last name. It's pretty bad when even Frank only thinks he did 3. Poor old duffer must be going senile already. 

Maria made it to the hospital? Then why is she in a body bag on the scene in most versions of the park massacre? Hmm... 

Calendar notes: The story is mainly in flashback, to a Summer "sixteen years ago", which is said to be 1960, when Frank was 10. The "current" stuff heavily implies Frank JUST became Punisher, and given the year as topically being 1976, that's about right. It's winter and snowing. 

Pages 1-2: Frank targets the top New York mob family in "1976". It's snowing. It's night. 
Page 3-14: Summer 1960. Ten year old Frank witnesses man on fire at the Brooklyn Navy Yards when bringing his father his lunch. After evesdropping on his parents talking about the event, he goes to Lauren Buvoli's house. Meets her brother Sal again. They then head to Father David's poetry class, where Frank is amazed by the poem "The Tyger", seeing it as a sign of such a creature being made by something other than God. While heading home, Frank and Lauren witness Sue jumping into traffic. 
Page 9, panel 2: Flashback, Frank reading books. Likely very immediately to main FB story. 
Page 10, panel 4: Frank and his father at the zoo. Probably not all that long prior to the main FB story. 
Pages 15-21: Three weeks later. Frank and Lauren go to the museum. On the way there, they see Albert and Vincent Rosa, with implication Lauren and Vincent are secretly acqutained. 
Pages 22-23: Frank beats up bully harassing Tim Donegan, questions him about his sister's connection to Rosa. 
Pages 24-25: A week later, in class. Lauren flees in tears. Frank makes it to her house too late, and she slits her wrists. 
Pages 26-35: About a week after Lauren's funeral. Frank's father tells his wife about their failed attempt to force Albert Rosa to do something about his son. So, late that night, Frank gets his father's gun and prepares to kill Vincent, only to have Sal Buvoli beat him to it, which he witnesses. 
Page 36, panel 1: Next morning, Vincent's corpse is wheeled out of the crime scene. 
Page 36, panels 2 & 3: Funeral procession and funeral for the Rosas. Frank is present, as is "everyone", supposedly. 
Pages 37-38: First week in-country for Frank. Sees Sergeant Buvoli's corpse. 
Pages 39-40: Halfway through Frank's "second tour, very very different than the first". I say make his comment out to be during his "second three", since he's a sniper here (as he was during early his Castle tour). 
Pages 41-44, 46, 48: "1976", continued. Frank snipes down the mafia guys, knowing they'll connect it to Castle, since this was his neighborhood, and it'll lead them to his new "face", one not made by God, the white skull on his shirt. 
Page 45: Black page with just dialogue. Basically, Frank's perception of events immediately following his family's murder. 
Page 47: Black page with dialogue, again. This being Frank's perception of things when at the hospital. 


PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" 
PUN3 18 (7:6 - 7:7)-FB 
**P:TYGER -FB (Page 10, panel 4) 
**P:TYGER -FB (Page 9, panel 2) 
**P:TYGER -FB (Pages 3-36) 
PUN4 1 (16:2)-FB 
... 
[NAM 69-FB] (should be split, since this issue covers such a vast amount of time) 
**P:TYGER -FB (Pages 37-38) 
**[NAM 69-FB] (splitted) 
PHS 2-FB 
... 
NAM 53 
**P:TYGER -FB (Pages 39-40) 
[PUNISHER INVADES THE NAM] 
ASM 175-FB 
... 
M/PRV 2-FB 
**P:TYGER -FB (Page 45) 
PUN:YO 1 
**P:TYGER -FB (Page 47) 
**PUN:YO 1 (should be split to put that in there) 
... 
PUN4 4 (5)-FB 
**P:TYGER 
M/PRV 2 

CASTLE, CHRISTIE 
... 
{M/PRV 2-FB} 
**P:TYGER -FB-BTS (Page 45) 
PUN:YO 1 

CASTLE, FRANK JR. 
... 
{M/PRV 2-FB} 
**P:TYGER -FB-BTS (Page 45) 
PUN:YO 1 

CASTLE, MARIA 
... 
{M/PRV 2-FB} 
**P:TYGER -FB-BTS (Page 45) 
PUN:YO 1 
------------------------------------

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 17 Oct 2006 07:17 am    Post subject: Stan Lee Meets Dr. Strange
By SKleefeld
Director

I wasn't planning on picking this up, but I did anyway. And since no one's signed up for an analysis yet... 

"Stan Lee Meets Doctor Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts" 
Stan's walking through the streets of NYC at night and sees an action figure of "my ol' pal Stephen Strange" in the window of Dit Co Comics. He claims not to have seen Strange in years, but he still remembers all those wild tales. Stan walks past Strange's Sanctum and decides to pop in for a quick visit. 

He opens the door and finds himself in a gift shop with lots of t-shirts, postcards, and bizarre looking masks. The assistant (an Asian woman who isn't named) tries to sell him on the $25 guided tour. Stan says that he just wants to see Stephen, but he learns that a private audience visit is $50. She leads Stan to Wong who notes that, because he's Stan Lee, he qualifies for a senior citizen discount. 

Stan eventually gets to see Stephen, who's working on his taxes (placing this in April?). Stephen complains about all the expenses and mundane-world bunk he has to deal with these days ("And don't even ask what it costs to dry-clean a cloak of levitation.") and we're treated to a few flashbacks. (More on those in a sec.) 

Eventually Wong notes that it's time to sell autographs and Stephen asks Stan to "drop a few coins in the kitty" on his way out. Stan heads out, wondering if maybe Dormammu should've won. 

The whole story can't take more than an hour or so, and it would need to occur sometime when Stan's in NYC. Obviously, we'll have to see what his schedule looks like as the other "Stan Lee Meets..." books come out. And as long as Strange and Wong are in town, it can pretty much drop in anywhere in their continuities. 

We do have a few flashbacks, as I noted earlier. These are largely played for yuks, and I'm not up to snuff on my Strange continuity to know if there are any times that these can't fall into. 

Page 6 panels 4-5 -- Strange needs to leave his body, but it happens to be Wong's day off. Wong is actually heading out the door to a Yankee's home game. 

Page 7 panel 1 -- Strange's astral form battling Dormammu with Clea shackled nearby. Strange does not have his cloak. 

Page 7 panel 2 -- Strange's real body is at home, being guarded by a "rent-a-cop" who expresses irritation that there isn't "one copy of Playboy in the joint." 

Page 7 panel 4 - page 8 panel 2 -- Strange (sans cloak) is in the process of renewing his lease on the Sanctum when a demon attacks. The landlord races away as Strange complains that he'll "never get him to lower my rent!" 

Page 8 panel 3 -- After above fight is finished, Wong enters the destroyed room(s?) with a broom. Strange complains about insurance premiums. 

Page 9 panel 2 -- Strange is battling a... something in another dimension. His cantation spell is "By the roving rings of Raggadorr, I'll nail your carcass to the floor!" 

Page 9 panel 3 -- Strange is battling Mordo and shouts, "By the crimson bands of Cyterokk, I'm really gonna clean your clock!" 

Page 9 panel 4 -- Strange is chasing a gremlin through the streets of a city and starts "By the hoary hosts of Hoggoth..." 

Page 10 panels 1-2 -- In complaining about having to take memory courses to ensure that he doesn't accidentally "turn the whole planet into jelly" Strange seems to be doing just that. What appears to be the gremlin is in the corner, so it appears to be just after the previous flashback. 

"Impy -- the Impossible Man" 
Impy pops into the Baxter Building "back to wreck havoc and mischief..." and asks where everyone is. Johnny, watching TV and clearly in a foul mood, answers that Ben's run off to Europe while Reed and Sue are trying to repair what's left of their marriage. When Impy asks about the bandages on Johnny's neck, he notes that he had a bottle cracked over his head. 

Impy pops over to Avengers Mansion to find that a Quinjet still rests where it crashed back during "Disassembled." He finds out what happened from a guy selling "Not Like This!" t-shirts with a head-shot of Hawkeye on the back. He then points to Avengers Tower, complete with Sentry spikey things. 

Impy pops over to Xavier's School, only to find one girl on the front steps. (I don't recognize her offhand. Blue-ish hair, X-knee pads, bare shoulders, some kind of glove/guantlet thing?) She's reading Modern Masters: John Byrne (from the wonderful TwoMorrows Publishing!) and notes that the X-Men are "in space or something." She mentions that there are no more mutants and her identity is irrelevant because she'll "be dead in six issues, tops." When she mentions that Wolverine and Spidey are both Avengers, Impy goes ballistic and pops over to Marvel HQ demanding to see Stan Lee. 

Impy gets shunted from one office to another before Quesada sents him off to Hollywood. Appearances by: David Gabriel, Ralph Macchio, John (Ralph's assistant), Molly Lazer, Aubrey Sitterson, Tom Brevoort, Joe Quesada, Dan Slott. Joe's appearance on The Colbert Report is evidently on perpetual replay in Quesada's office. 

In Hollywood, Impy finds that he has to wait in a long line to see Stan. In line with him are: Alpha Flight, Bucky, Beast, Goliath (Bill Foster), Quicksilver, Fin Fang Foom (back at full size), Batroc, Black Bolt and Gwen Stacey. The accompanying paparazzi leave when they spot Bruce Willis (BTS) and Impy finally gets to talk with Stan. 

Impy goes off about all the crazy things that are going on with the Marvel Universe, and Stan says it's okay because change is good. Impy agrees and the two walk off into the sunset, debating who can or can't say "Excelsior" or "Nuff said." 

You know, if it weren't for all the dead people waiting to see Stan, this could actually work in continuity. Impy never actually says that anyone is writing what's been going on, and it clearly is making reference to canon events all over the place. 

"Principal Stanley" 
This is a Mini-Marvels story by Chris Giarrusso. Out of continuity. 

"While the World Spins Mad" 
Reprint from Marvel Premier #3.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2006 08:56 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Sean. 

Well, if the Impy story is canonical, it supports this sequence of CW events: 
1) Thing leaves for France 
2) Sue and Johnny leave the FF to join Cap's Resistance 
...with the Impy story happening between them. 

Apparently, Sue has her major fight with Reed in FF 540 before trying to repair what's left of her marriage BTS in the Impy story. Things are smoothed over enough after this so that Sue can finally leave in a calmer fashion, following a last romp with Reed in CW 4. 

It sounds like the bluish-haired girl you're describing is Surge. 

Can't the "dead people" waiting to see Stan be imposters? Kooks dressed up as Marvel characters trying to be Stan's next greatest superhero or something?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2006 02:54 am    
By Frederic Krier

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Can't the "dead people" waiting to see Stan be imposters? Kooks dressed up as Marvel characters trying to be Stan's next greatest superhero or something? 
<<<

Well, for instance you have Gwen Stacy complaining about her treatment in "Sins Past". 
The Impossible Man story really shouts out "not canon" to me.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2006 07:23 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I agree. It's definitely a tongue-in-cheek story written by Bendis for the benefit of all the folks who complain about his (and Millar's) wrecking the MU. 

As for the possibility of imposters, it seems REALLY unlikely. For one, Bill Foster is shown at a good 15-20' tall and a costume like that would have to be an incredible animatronic. Plus, Fin Fang Foom is also shown at his 50+ foot height. I suppose you could argue that it's a statue in Stan's front lawn since he doesn't move or speak, or maybe it's also an animatronic robot or something, but... And we'd still have to contend with some incredible Sasquatch and cat-like Beast costumes. 

I just can't picture that many kooks being able to put together that many great costumes, and NOT already have a better job working for ILM or Disney or someone.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 05:56 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So, I take it then, that the Impy story is not the evidence that would contradict our preferred sequence of people leaving the FF. Works for me. 

Now then, if the Impy story can't be canonical, where does that leave the Strange/Lee story?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 06:50 am    
By Somebody

I'm just looking at the posts above here and Jason and Paul O's posts in this thread and wondering if there's any point in trying to fit any of these into canon - even if one or two will go, Professor X and the X-Men #4 isn't in the MCP because it's part of a series which is otherwise non-canon (in that case, for retellings), so if most of these turn out non-canon (as it looks) would ANY of these count even if a couple of stories could be squeezed in?

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 07:13 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Now then, if the Impy story can't be canonical, where does that leave the Strange/Lee story? 
<<<

Well, the story itself is largely incosequential: Stan visits Stephen and they chat for a bit. The flashbacks, too, are rather innocuous and of no great import to the characters' continuities. I don't see anything that clearly defines this as being outside canon. 

Stephen seems a bit out of character to me overall, but there are certainly worse mischaracterizations that have been incorporated in the lexicon. ***COUGHREEDINCIVILWARCOUGH***  

To my knowledge, no one working on the book has publically said that this isn't canon, and I only see one line of dialogue in the book that might call the issue into question. I believe the rule of thumb is that it should be considered canon unless there's a compelling reason why it can't be, so I'd have to argue for it being in continuity. 

With one caveat. Strange notes in one of the flashbacks that he, at least at one time, was leasing either the building and/or the property. He met with the landlord, mentioned the lease expressly, and later complained about rent -- as opposed to property taxes or housing costs or whatever. It strikes me as odd that Strange would be renting the facility as opposed to owning it outright, but I don't know if that's ever been expressly mentioned in the comics before. And, even it has, it's part of a flashback so there's no reason to say that the flashback took place a really long time ago, and was one of the reasons why Strange opted to buy the place outright.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 08:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the explanation, Sean. I guess we'll wait until the analyses of the other Stan Lee stories are in to see if we can't place the bunch of them en masse, presumably somewhere in recent continuity.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2006 04:56 pm    
By jephyork
Director

You guys have got to be kidding me. 

Everyone knows they're comic characters -- Surge even mentions that she'll "be dead in six isues tops" -- and you don't immediately throw it out of continuity? 

There's a GIFT SHOP in Dr. Strange's building, and he charges for autographs, and you don't immediately throw it out of continuity? 

These are all pretty clearly parody books, folks. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2006 08:27 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I don't think the parody is lost on anyone, Jeph. You're just forgetting some of the MCP's rules... 

Rule 1 -- No poofters 
Rule 2 -- All books are considered canon unless they can't be 
Rule 3 -- No poofters 
Rule 4 -- Story elements trump creator intent 
Rule 5 -- No poofters 
Rule 6 -- There is no Rule 6 
Rule 7 -- No poofters 

(With apologies to Bruce, Bruce, Bruce, Bruce, New-Bruce and any poofters out there who take exception to the term "poofter".)

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2006 02:20 pm
By jephyork
Director

So you're saying there IS a gift shop in Dr. Strange's lobby. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Oct 2006 02:50 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Not quite. I'm saying it's possible, for the duration of this story, that Dr. Strange has a gift shop in his lobby. 

Recall that the Sanctum Sanctorum actually changes layouts frequently to suit Strange's needs/desires. Rooms move around or disappear entirely all the time thanks to Strange's magiks, so it's entirely plausible that, for at least a little while before, during and after Stan's visit, there was a gift shop upon entering the building. It may not be there NOW; it may not have been there during Stan's run on Strange Tales or Steve Englehart's run on Dr. Strange; but it doesn't need to have been. 

Likewise, it's been noted on occassions that Reed Richards had built tesseract cubes into the FF's headquarters so he could likewise move rooms around at will. Which means that, like the Sanctum Sanctorum, it effectively eliminates any possible "artistic errors" when it comes to the building layouts, views through any of the windows, and/or individual room constructions. 

And, more directly applicable to the MCP, it means that a complete overhaul in how rooms are laid out within the building do not necessarily equate to non-canonocity and/or substantial periods of demolition/reconstruction within the story structure(s).

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 10:26 am    Post subject: Hellstorm MAX
By Enda80

Hmmmm.........Set and Osiris appears, but the author seems unaware of Osiris' Thor appearances. 

I had hoped to use this to indicate that the Punisher Annual#2 fb took place before Set had killed Osiris and Isis resurrected him.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2006 07:55 pm    
By Col_Fury

So what stopped you?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2006 06:50 am    
By Enda80

Well, the plot seems to be that Osiris has not been seen since Seth killed him in ancient times........when in fact Osiris has appeared numerous times in the modern era.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2006 07:43 am    
By Enda80

http://www.comicboards.com/max/view.php?trd=061020134203 
early vsion of Osiris

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2006 03:59 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

As Enda points out, this story appears to assume (as its central plot point) that Osiris has not been alive since mythical times. Obviously that contradicts all manner of THOR stories. I'll reserve judgment until we see the rest of the series, but prima facie, it does look like this is a non-canon Max title.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2006 11:34 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quick question, as I'm not all that familiar with this character: the Marvel Solicitations has this characters name as being "Damian Hellstorm". Yet he's listed in the MCP as "DAIMON HELLSTROM"...is this a case of Marvel retconning their character's name?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2006 04:53 pm    
By Enda80

The name is Daimon, not Damien. 

BTW, he debuted before the Omen came out, but after Rosemary's Baby (novel and film). 

I had always ASSumed that the name Daimon was just a play on Damian from the Omen movies. However, I read somewhere that Daimon is a Greek word, referring to intermediary spirits standing between man and the supernatural. 
In addition, as pointed out by John McDonagh: 
The Omen film, featuring Damien Thorn, did not come out until 1976. Son of Satan/Daimon Hellstorm first appeared October, 1972, before that movie came out. 
Before the film the Omen, the name Damien had no supernatural connotations. It is simply a variation on the name James. In fact, there was a Father Damien, the founder of the leper colony in Hawaii. 
An unfortunate story involving the name Damien had to with the young man Damien Echols, whom many feel was railroaded when he was convicted for the Robin Hood Hills murders. http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_robin.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2006 05:01 pm    
By Enda80

Many people think that Daimon Hellstorm cribbed from the Omen, but as I have noted, he actually would have to crib from Rosemary's Baby (which came out in the 1960's). They think he cribbed from the Omen because he anticipated the name Daimon/Damien and the Omen eclipsed Rosemary's baby because only one sequel was made to RB, which was made for tv, while the Omen had 3 sequels and a remake, 2 of which made it to theatres. So when people make jokes about Satan having a son (Munsters Today, Night Court, South Pod, etc.), they spoof the Omen before they spoof Rosemary's Baby. Kind of similar to how if people wanted to spoof slasher films from 1981-1998, they would almost exclusively spoof Jason Voorhees or Freddy Krueger, not Michael Myers.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2006 07:36 pm    
By Somebody

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
In addition, as pointed out by John McDonagh: 
<<<

Do you often refer to yourself in the third person?
