	Marvel Universe Forum
1. GENX 7-9, UX 325
2. Generation X question
3. Holocaust is coming to town
4. Identifying characters in CIVIL WAR 5
5. Spider-man canon appearance questions
6. Rom chronology and 1980s Handbook
7. Gravity
8. Beast and Iceman vs Metoxo in M/HOL 1994
9. A couple of questions from a newbie!
10. Black Panther 22
11. DEF 2
12. DEF 4
13. DEF 5
14. M/TU 8
15. Post HoM Wolverine
16. CAT 1-4
17. LCHFH 9-11
18. Ayesha
19. X-Men: First Class
20. Terri Sue Bottoms
21. Black Bolt Chronology
22. Villains in Daughters of the Dragon #4
23. Handbook#12
24. Alpha Flight Special
25. FF adjustment, thanks to MARVELS
26. X-Men Unlimited 16

	Issue Analysis Forum
27. Stan Lee Meets Dr. Doom
28. November call for analyses
29. Marvel Holiday Special
30. Stan Lee Meets the Silver Surfer
31. December call for analyses
32. Gambit vol. 1 #1-4
33. Spider-Man, Punisher, Sabretooth: Designer Genes
34. Chronology Review for Wolverine v3 #49
35. Daredevil Vol. 2 #88
36. Chronology Review for Daredevil: Father #6
37. Gunhawks 1-7
38. Gambit Vol.2 1-4
39. Analysis for "What If" 2006 issues





Thread 1

Posted: 04 Dec 2006 09:16 pm    Post subject: GENX 7-9, UX 325
By Dhall

I call your attention to this portion of Banshees listing: 

X:PRIME-BTS 
XFOR 44 
GENX 5 
GENX 6 
GENX 7 
GENX 8 
GENX 9 
UX 325 
W2 94 
PR:G 
PR:R 
GENX '95 
GENX 10 
GENX 11 

Now if you compare it to other GenX character listings, UX 325 should come BEFORE GENX 7. 

Additionally if you compare it to Jubilees listing: 
X:PRIME 
GENX 5 
GENX 6 
DCVM 1 
DCVM 2 
DCVM 3 
DCVM 4 
PR:G 
PR:R 
PR 0 
UX 325 
GENX 7 
W2 94 
GENX 8 
GENX 9 
UX '95 
GENX '95 
GENX 10 
GENX 11 

Youll notice that the listings for the Ultraverse issues are wrong in Banshees listing. 

Banshees listing should look something like this: 
X:PRIME-BTS 
XFOR 44 
GENX 5 
GENX 6 
**UX 325 
**PR:G 
**PR:R 
GENX 7 <- Remove 
GENX 8<- Remove 
GENX 9<- Remove 
UX 325 <- Remove 
**GENX 7 
W2 94 
**GENX 8 
**GENX 9 
PR:G <- Remove 
PR:R <- Remove 
GENX '95 
GENX 10 
GENX 11 

Gateways listing needs one change : 

GENX 1 
GENX 2 
GENX 5 
GENX 6 
GENX 7 <-Remove 
EXVX 0 
PRIME2 2/2 
MANTRA2 2/2 
PR:G 
PR:R 
PR 0 
**GENX 7 
X 49 

Also note that per Rogues listing : 
X:PRIME 
X 42 
UX 323 
UX 324 
UX 325 
X 45 
EXVX 0 
PR:G 
PR:R 
XM 11 

UX 325 must come before the EXVX and PR issues. 

Thus Jubilees listing should be: 

X:PRIME 
GENX 5 
GENX 6 
DCVM 1 
DCVM 2 
DCVM 3 
DCVM 4 
**UX 325 
PR:G 
PR:R 
PR 0 
UX 325 <-Remove 
GENX 7 
W2 94 
GENX 8 
GENX 9 
UX '95 
GENX '95 
GENX 10 
GENX 11 


DaveH

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Posted: 03 Dec 2006 07:53 pm    Post subject: Generation X question
By zeus

I finally completed my run of Generation X with the Wizard 1/2 issue. 

Now I'm trying to figure out where it fits, so I decided to look up some of the characters involved, and see where you guys put it. 

For Skin, the flashback portion is listed, but not the non-flashback part (at least that I could find). The link for Skin has a continuity list that puts it after Generation X #41, which is entirely possible. 

I couldn't find anything for GenX #1/2 under Jubilee or Husk, and Torres' listing puts it after her previous appearance of GenX #31. 

So, where does it go? After #41 and before the Dracula annual?

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Dec 2006 09:19 pm    
By Dhall

I have it in my list between GenX 40 and 41.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Dec 2006 11:11 pm    
By JLH

I remember when it came out, I was hoping it'd explain the huge gaping plotholes that existed between issues 31 and 32. Oh, to be so young and stupid...

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Posted: 06 Dec 2006 02:16 pm    Post subject: Holocaust is coming to town
By Enda80

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28comics%29 
Holocaust was in Stryfe's Stryke Files? Did they ever explain how Stryfe could know about him? Ah well, Stryfe probably has numerous means to explore alternate/future/past/divergent/parallel/alternate/megaversal/multiversal/omninversal areas. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Cutioner%27s_Song#Stryfe.27s_Strike_File 
I hope I did drop off Stryfe's Stryke Files. 

Other than that, I perused Santa Claus' entry in the back of the holiday special, and I noticed some interesting points. The adaptation of the Dudley Moore/John Lithgow/David Huddleston Santa Claus film is actually treated as a possible origin for SC on E-616. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus:_The_Movie 

The entry recounts the Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer story. DC put out a Rudolph series at some point. I know of no MVL adaptations, but there is a problem; Rudolph is not public domain. He is owned by the estate of Robert May. The origin cited for him in the entry seems to follow the Rankin-Bass TV special or Montgomery War book. (Oddly enough, no Rudolph movie has ever achieved wide theatrical release. Prancer got a film, which made about $15 mill on a $5 mill budget, which was reasonably successful for the late 1980's-Halloween IV did about the same business). 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolph_the_Red-Nosed_Reindeer 

Marvel Age#109's Captain America/Nick Fury team-up is placed on Earth-616. 

SC's Atlas era appearances get treated as Earth-616 canon. 

Yes, the Hate-Monger was indirectly defeated by Santa Claus in that Nick Fury appearance. 

SC's Two What The appearances are cited as canon. 

Whether Antiochus Epiphanes did in fact attack SC is left ambigous. 

None of the Bizarre Adventures#34 stories got cited as canon, oddly enough, except for the reference to the bag as a tesseract.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Dec 2006 03:38 pm
By SKleefeld
Director

Marvel hasn't actually violated any copyright/trademark issues here. 

In the Holiday Special they only cite the character as "Rudolph, the adolescent fawn of one of his <Santa's> flying reindeer, Donner." The character is later then described as having a nose "which glowed a bright red" but this article clearly notes how no one can claim a trademark on the general description of a reindeer with a red nose. 

Also, the history given is clearly NOT based on the Montgomery Ward story. A few of the differences between that and the Rankin Bass animated film are noted here.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 30 Nov 2006 09:50 pm    Post subject: Identifying characters in CIVIL WAR 5
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Can anyone help in identifying these characters in yet more instances of group shots in a Marvel comic? This time we're talking CIVIL WAR #5. 

Page 8, panel 2 -- who's the Thunderbolt between Jester and Atlas? 

Page 14, panel 1 -- who's the Resistance member in the coat with his back to us (to the left of Johnny Storm)? 

Page 16, panel 1 -- who's the Resistance member with the red specs?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2006 10:43 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Page 8, panel 2 -- who's the Thunderbolt between Jester and Atlas? 
<<<

The only Thunderbolt who seems to fit that picture is the Ox. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Page 14, panel 1 -- who's the Resistance member in the coat with his back to us (to the left of Johnny Storm)? 

Page 16, panel 1 -- who's the Resistance member with the red specs? 
<<<

Looks like Machine Man in his Nextwave costume. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Dec 2006 06:46 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Sean. You're saying that the guy in the jacket and the guy in the specs are one and the same, then? I myself was thinking maybe Zach Moonhunter, but I'll defer to your conclusion as I haven't been following Nextwave.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Dec 2006 08:03 am    
By jephyork
Director


Don't we also see Monica Rambeau in her Nextwave-style outfit? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Dec 2006 08:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

We've already seen Monica Rambeau among the rebels, and Nextwave are already rebels in their own book (since they're on the run from a corrupt government agency). So it makes reasonable sense that Aaron would be there.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Dec 2006 05:48 pm    
By garbonzo

But I thought that we were going on the assumption that Nextwave was non-canon. That being said, I'm not sure that we can use the events in Nextwave as reasoning for someone to be in a particular place in CW. I took Monica's costume as an artistic nod to Nextwave moreso than a statement of its canonicity. 

Unless there was another conversation i missed somewhere that showed us that Nextwave was canon...

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Dec 2006 07:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Why assume non-canonicity? 

I was under the assumption that we weren't "assuming" anything, either way, until the books gave us some more info. Which it looks like they have. Between the correct costumes popping up in Civil War, Monica Rambeau mentioning that she's dropped the name "Photon" in an issue of Black Panther, and the "198 Files" Handbook mentioning Meltdown's affiliation with H.A.T.E. -- that, plus since the series is cancelled, it has no more opportunities to do anything that violates canon -- I'm pretty much ready to declare Nextwave's canonicity. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 08:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The HANDBOOK says Nextwave is canon. End of discussion, really.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 09:30 am    
By Somebody

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=13233#13233 
They can tell us that, but it has no meaning. If they never told us it wasn't canon, then Morlocks has always been canon for us, unless it can't be. And if it can't be canon, then it isn't (for the Project), regardless of Marvel's claims that it is. As a policy here, Marvel's canon claims are suspect, because Marvel knows that definitively removing a title from canon is the kiss of death. Therefore, we have to make our own determination. 
<<<

I also point out that this is the Project that has pulled the "it didn't happen, even if something very similar did" line on more than one occasion...

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 10:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We're drifting off-topic here, but... 

The context of the quote above is basically that we don't look for evidence that a story is canon. We look for evidence that a story can't be canon. 

If we find the evidence (that the story can't be canon), then it isn't, regardless of what Marvel says. 

If not, then it's canon. 

What's the evidence that Nextwave can't be canon? 

Some people are too quick to declare a story not canon, based on characterization, or costumes, or facial hair, etc. That strikes me as silly. You need more than that. Is Franklin Richards engaged to Gwen Stacy in the story? It's not canon. In a self-contained Atlantis story, is modern-day Atlantis occupied by eel-people, and in the middle of a thousand-year reign by their monarch Blech-Tarr? It's not canon. In a Black Widow story set in the past, is Iron Fist wearing a costume we've never seen before, and receiving his instructions from the Kingpin, and is Ka-Zar a member of the Defenders? We would assume that's canon, and try to find a place for it. 


watching: 24

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 10:58 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The only aspect of NEXTWAVE that really causes problems is a conflicting Fin Fang Foom, but that's a fairly minor point in the grand scheme of things. Overall, there's really nothing so outrageous as to disqualify it from canon. It's SILLY, of course, but then so was virtually all of HOWARD THE DUCK. Heck, by modern standards, so is half the Silver Age. 

There are bits of NEXTWAVE that may arguably have to be dismissed as continuity errors, but nothing so fundamental as to kick it off the mainstream Marvel Universe entirely. On the contrary, characters regularly allude to their past careers, and there's even a flashback scene (albeit a very sarcastic one) explaining how Machine Man returned to Earth after his time with the Celestials.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 03:09 pm    Post subject: Spider-man canon appearance questions
By cweed4

Just wondering about the canon status of a few Spider-man appearances. 

Kingpin mini-series (2003)- Is it safe to assume this updated origin has gone the way of Chapter One and Trouble? 

Spider-man: Blue (2002)- Lots of chronological inconsistencies but essentially based on E-616 events. 

Spider-man: The Mutant Agenda (1994)- Perhaps this newspaper(?!) crossover falls in The Gap. 

Spider-man: Quality of Life (2002)- Can computer generated art qualify as canon?  

Sentry (2000)- Is this character just too confusing to figure out his placement in the MCP? 

Spider-man: House of M (2005)- House of M is clearly canon but this mini apparently is not. Did this mix-up happen with all the other HOM minis?

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 03:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Kingpin, Blue - don't know. 

Mutant Agenda -- it wasn't a newspaper strip crossover, it was a storyline told in two formats at the same time. The 3-issue limited series stands alone from the newspaper strip version -- and as far as I know, it's canon. 

Quality of Life -- why WOULDN'T computer-generated art qualify as canon? 

Sentry - canon, and we figured out the placements for it just fine, actually. Thanks. 

Spider-Man: House of M - it doesn't match up very well to the main storyline, to be sure, but there's nothing in it to automatically toss it out of canonicity. And no, this "mix-up" didn't happen with the other HoM spin-off series -- every last one of them is canon. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 10 Nov 2006 02:13 pm    Post subject: Rom chronology and 1980s Handbook
By lkseitz

Okay, tell me again what the MCP policy is on the Official Marvel Handbooks and canonicity? Marvel Legacy: The 1980s Handbook came out this week. The Spaceknights entry puts ROM@ 2 after all the "Tales of the Spaceknights" backups (the various second stories in the beginning of Rom's chronology). I had placed it before those. I just got the issue so I can't yet say if the Handbook's placement makes as much sense as mine (the MCP's) yet. I'll have to go back and review the stories. I'll also have to go back and review what the previous editions of OHOTMU said. I guess I know what I'm spending tonight doing. 
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Nov 2006 03:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Our policy on Marvel (Handbooks) and canonicity: 

Marvel doesn't tell us that stories are canon. We already start with a presumption of canon. Marvel (Handbooks) can only tell us if a story isn't canon. 



Our policy on Marvel (Handbooks) and chronology: 

The Handbooks are right, unless they're obviously wrong. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Nov 2006 10:56 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director


The way you summed that up, I like it...can we add it to the FAQ? (along with the "lack of evidence doesn't equal evidence" bit)?  

Speaking of the FAQ, (sorry lkseitz for going off topic) I was glancing over it, and noticed the following entry on "non-canon" books: 

Quote: 
Blade (current series, whatever volume number that is) 


I believe that entry was written during the last Blade series. A person reading the FAQ now might mistake that those words pertain to the current series out now, (which is, by all accounts, completely canon).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Dec 2006 12:26 am    
By DonCampbell

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Legacy: The 1980s Handbook came out this week. The Spaceknights entry puts ROM@ 2 after all the "Tales of the Spaceknights" backups (the various second stories in the beginning of Rom's chronology). I had placed it before those. 
<<<

I also think that ROM@ 2 should remain before ROM 13/2. After looking over the Spaceknights entry, it seems that the writers were trying to accomodate a single reference in the second story of ROM ANNUAL #1. In that story, which is specifically stated to take place after Rom left Galador (in ROM #20/2), Rom is captured by the Dire Wraiths after being betrayed by a "renegade" Spaceknight, Gloriole. A Dire Wraith states that Gloriole's training in sorcery would begin "when Rom is a prisoner of the Dark Nebula." The writers of the 1980's Handbook have apparently concluded that this story must therefore take place before Rom drove the Wraiths from Wraithworld (as shown in Rom ANNUAL #2). 

I respectfully disagree with this position. If one looks at the story in ROM ANNUAL #2, there are two references which place it very soon after the Wraith attack on Galador was routed. First, on page 5, as Rom kills three Deathwing nestlings with his Neutralizer, the narrative states that "less than twenty-four hours ago, Rom was forced to slay the dark Deathwing queen." Since it was Rom's slaying of that creature (in the flashback in ROM #1) which caused the Wraiths to abandon their attack on Galador and flee, this indicates that the events in ROM Annual #2 begin less than one day after the flashback in ROM #1 ends. 

The second reference in on page 16 of ROM@ 2. The Prime Director had called the six-member Spaceknight Squadron to him so that he could send them to search for Rom who had disappeared following his dispersal of the Wraith fleet. The narrative states that, with this new mission, the six Spaceknights "were beginning to realize that the dispersal of Wraithkind might not have signaled the end of the war" for them. In my opinion, this would seem to place the events of that annual before ROM #13/2, the first of the "Saga of the Spaceknights" back-up stories, in which the Prime Director first told the Spaceknights that the war was not yet over because the Dire Wraiths had fled to other worlds where they would build strongholds from which they could later threaten Galador again. 

As I see it, that single mention of making Rom "a prisoner of the Dark Nebula" is not enough to justify rearranging Rom's chronology as the Handbook writers have tried to do. ROM@ 2 should remain between ROM 1-FB and ROM #13/2 

By the way, I noticed what might be a slight error with the MCP's listing for Rom. ROM 1-FB is only listed once even though events depicted therein are actually interwoven with events in flashbacks from ROM #3-5. If the listing was to be as detailed as those of some other characters, then it should begin like this: 

ROM 4-FB (Rom is saved by Karas) 
{ROM 1-FB} (Rom is the first to volunteer to become a Spaceknight) 
ROM 5-FB (Rom talks with Ray-Na about what he has done) 
ROM 4-FB (Rom meets fellow volunteer Karas) 
ROM 1-FB (volunteers are transformed into Spaceknights) 
ROM 3-FB (Rom first views his metal hands through his sensor-eyes) 
ROM 1-FB (assembled Spaceknights go up into space) 
ROM 4-FB (Karas breaks ranks with Rom to attack first) 
ROM 1-FB (Spaceknights battle the Wraith fleet until Rom kills the Queen Mother Deathwing) 
ROM@ 2 (Rom pursues a fleeing Wraith battlecruiser to Wraithworld) 
ROM 13/2 (Prime Director asks the Spaceknights to remain cyborgs) 
. . . . . 

Of course, I'm not exactly sure how the MCP deals with flashbacks so I may be making a mountain out of a molehole. If I'm wrong, then please let me know. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Dec 2006 07:04 am    
By lkseitz

I feel bad because since I brought this up, I haven't had time to fully research it. (Holidays, you know.) I have begun. I've also gotten an e-mail from the Handbook writer who wrote this entry explaining his reasoning. He did not mention ROM@ 1/2 as part of his reasoning. It had more to do with the Wraiths being driven back to the Dark Nebula and no longer menacing Galadorian space, as shown in "Tales of the Spaceknights." Also, he saw ROM@ 2 as having Rom solo because his squad broke up with the death of Terminator. Your reasoning with the Deathwing queen reference was part of my original reasoning for where I placed the story, but at the moment I could go with either explanation. More study is required. I hope I can get to it soon. 

DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
By the way, I noticed what might be a slight error with the MCP's listing for Rom. ROM 1-FB is only listed once even though events depicted therein are actually interwoven with events in flashbacks from ROM #3-5. 
<<<

Yes, that's an error on my part. It was the very first thing I submitted to the MCP, way back when, so I didn't have as good a handle on the format as I do now. I never got around to submitting a correction, but planned to as part of my analysis of the MARVEL LEGACY issue.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Dec 2006 12:16 am    
By lkseitz

After careful study, I am forced to concede that MARVEL LEGACY: THE 1980s HANDBOOK has a better placement for ROM ANNUAL #2 than the one I initially came up with and is currently listed in the MCP. I think when I analyzed it, I focused on the reference to Rom killing the Deathwing queen 24 hours earlier (during the battle at Galador). What this ignores, however, are two references to a month passing since that battle. (All three references are in the captions. The characters give no time references.) 

More importantly, it ignores Rom's reaction to the Prime Director when he says the war is not yet won in ROM 13/2. Rom is disbelieving that they are being asked to forego regaining their humanity to pursue the Dire Wraiths. However, the Director convinces Rom, who convinces the rest of the Spaceknights. Rom makes a very similar speech at the end of ROM@ 2. If ROM@ 2 came first, why would he make this speech and then turn around and ask the Prime Director why they can't have their humanity restored in ROM 13/2? Yes, reuniting with his girlfriend, Ray-na, could have an influence, but that would still be an awfully big shift in attitude. It makes more sense that Rom made the speech in ROM 13/2, fought for a month, and then renewed his vow in ROM@ 2. 

BTW, the previous editions of OHOTMU were no help. They didn't go into that much detail in either Rom or the Spaceknights' histories. And the DELUXE EDITION had some information that was patently wrong, which I'd forgotten about. 

Also, as mentioned above, there are flashbacks in Rom's chronology that occur in the middle of other flashbacks. Here then, is Rom's ridiculously complete chronology leading up to the main story of ROM 1. If you wish, you can compare it to THE 1980s HANDBOOK bibliography. I purposely did not reference it while compiling mine, but they pretty much agree. 

ROM 4-FB (pp. 23, 26) 
ROM 1-FB (p. 19) 
ROM 5-FB (pp. 2-3) 
ROM 4-FB (p. 26, pan. 4; Could also potentially go before the ROM 5 flashback immediately above.) 
ROM 1-FB-BTS (p. 19, pan. 6-p. 21, pan. 1) ~ ROM 3-FB (p. 5, pan. 6) 
[For the purposes of the MCP, the latter should probably be used instead of the ~ with the former. It's a scene where thousands of Galadorians are going to be tested to see if they can become Spaceknights. Rom isn't explicitly shown in the former shot, but is in the latter.) 
ROM 1-FB (p. 21, pan. 2) ~ ROM 3-FB (p. 5, pan. 7) 
[The MCP should probably only list ROM 1-FB as both scenes are virtually identical.] 
ROM 3-FB (p. 6, pan. 1-3) 
ROM 1-FB (p. 21, pan. 4) 
ROM 4-FB (p. 26, pan. 5) 
ROM 1-FB-BTS (p. 21, pan. 5; the Spaceknights face-off against the Wraith fleet. Rom is presumed present, but drawn too small to distinguish.) 
ROM 4-FB (p. 26, pan. 6) 
ROM 1-FB-BTS (p. 21, pan. 6) ~ ROM 4-FB (p. 26, pan. 7) 
[Again, the former is a scene without expliticly showing Rom while the latter does.] 
ROM 1-FB (p. 22, pan. 1) 
ROM 13/2 
ROM 1-FB (p. 22, pan. 2-3) 
ROM 8-FB (p. 3) 
ROM 14/2 
ROM 16/2 
ROM 19/2 
ROM 20/2 
ROM@ 1/2 
ROM@ 2 
ROM 1 
...
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 02:42 pm    
By DonCampbell

Two points: 

First, I have also come to agree with the 1980's Handbook (and lkseitz) that ROM ANNUAL #2 is better placed after the "Saga of the Spaceknights" stories than before them. However, this is a purely retroactive decision on all our parts, one that has been made with plenty of hindsight. If you read the story over carefully, it is very clear that writer Bill Mantlo meant for these events to take place IMMEDIATELY after the failure of the Wraith invasion of Galador and that the decimated Wraith battlefleet is fleeing from that rout. The "Less than twenty-four hours ago" reference proves that absolutely. The fact that that placement causes Rom's attitude to shift back and forth is something that Mantlo must have overlooked when writing the annual's story. 

Second, there are no references to a month passing since the battle of Galador. The two references you mentioned are actually to when the Wraith battlefleet attacked the star systems of the great Golden Galaxy "less than a month earlier" and to the attacks on the outer worlds of the Golden Galaxy that have occurred "in a month's time" during which time Rom's peace-loving planet mobilized for war. So if the total time from the first Wraith attack to Rom's invasion of Wraithworld was less than a month, then that time must be divided into two periods (X and Y) with "X" representing the time prior to the battle of Galador and "Y" representing the period after that battle. If this is accurate, then the "Saga of the Spaceknights" stories take place with the Y period (however long that was). 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 02:38 am    
By padawan

I thought people would like to see an email I recently sent to lkseitz regarding the timeline of Rom annual 2: 

Dear Lee, 

ROM annual number two occurs immediately after the flashback in ROM number one, there is very little doubt about that. The Marvel Legacy handbook is simply wrong if it indicates otherwise. As you and at least one other person (Don Campbell) have in fact noticed, page six, panel two of Rom annual number two says that Rom killed the deathwing queen less than 24 hours earlier, indicating quite clearly that this comic takes place immediately after the flashback in Rom number one. It is not even possible that the comic is talking about a second deathwing queen since a Dire Wraith on page five, panel four, indicates clearly that Rom slew only one queen deathwing: "The hatchlings have done through sheer strength of numbers what their queen mother could not" (queen is singular, not plural). 

Those two captions you mention that supposedly place Rom annual number two a month after the flashback in Rom number one, don't necessarily do that. I presume you are referring to page two, panel one that states: "...less than a month earlier, a battlefleet thrice this size attacked suddenly...", and to page three, panel one, that states: "In a month's time he has seen outer worlds of the golden galaxy brutally attacked...". Neither of these conclusively indicate that the battle between the Spaceknights and the Wraith fleet took place a month earlier for a very simple reason. Take a look at Rom number one, page 19, panel two. The caption says, "Such was the tale of terror that sped through space, to be received on far-flung Galador days later!" Then look at what one of the Prime Director's advisors says in that same panel, "What can be done? Our outlying patrols monitor the enemy's approach even now! It is only a matter of days before they reach us!" In other words, the battle between the Spaceknights and the Wraith fleet above Galador, that was shown in the flashback of Rom number one, clearly took place several days (possibly even close to a month) after the Wraiths first attacked the Golden Galaxy. Therefore, those two captions you talk about are not inconsistent with the argument that Rom annual number two takes place a day after the flashback in Rom number one. On the other hand, panel two, on page six of Rom annual number two quite strongly argues (actually it really does prove) that Rom annual number two takes place a day after the flashback in Rom number one. 

Regarding your comment about What Rom says at the end of Rom annual number two, and what the Prime director says in Rom 13/2, this does not conclusively place Rom annual two after Rom 13/2. I personally believe that Rom annual 2 is a reimagining of the Rom storyline. The storyline has been changed so that it was Rom not the Prime Director who first suggested that the Spaceknights go to other worlds to cleanse them of the Dire Wraiths. Actually, interestingly enough, it seems that Rom 13/2 is a reimagining itself, since in the flashback of Rom number one it was Rom who says that the Dire Wraiths have to be totally cleansed from the universe (see Rom number one, page 22, panels two and three). 

Returning from that digression about the reimagining, I can think of some counter arguments to your argument that the end of Rom annual two and Rom 13/2 provide evidence that Rom 13/2 came first. For example, in Rom annual number two, on page 39, panel four Rom says that the Spaceknights drove the Wraiths to other worlds. This is followed by Raak the Breaker saying that that is the problem of the other worlds. In other words, the two of them (Raak in particular) are acting like this is the first time this conversation came up, like it had not yet been decided to save other worlds from the Wraiths. No mention was made of what was decided by Rom and the Prime Director (and apparently the rest of the Spaceknights) in Rom 13/2. Furthermore, look at page 40 of the same issue. Raak says, "You mean carry on the war? Wait to reclaim our humanity? Why, Rom? Why?" That sure sounds like Raak is hearing this argument for the first time, which would not be the case if this story took place after Rom 13/2. Also, in Rom's response, as I just indicated, Rom makes no mention about this having been decided already. 

On chronologyproject.com you write: 

I feel bad because since I brought this up, I haven't had time to fully research it. (Holidays, you know.) I have begun. I've also gotten an e-mail from the Handbook writer who wrote this entry explaining his reasoning. He did not mention ROM@ 1/2 as part of his reasoning. It had more to do with the Wraiths being driven back to the Dark Nebula and no longer menacing Galadorian space, as shown in "Tales of the Spaceknights." Also, he saw ROM@ 2 as having Rom solo because his squad broke up with the death of Terminator. Your reasoning with the Deathwing queen reference was part of my original reasoning for where I placed the story, but at the moment I could go with either explanation. More study is required. I hope I can get to it soon. 

On page 2, panel 2, of Annual two, a Dire Wraith says, "The Galadorian defenders crippled so many of our ships -- slew so many of our sorceresses--that we are lucky to be able to limp back to..." It sure sounds to me like the Wraith is saying that they are fleeing because they were defeated (just defeated that is) in that large battle with the Spaceknights shown in the flashback of Rom number one. It really is illogical (rather silly actually) to think that the Wraith fleet wouldn't flee after losing that first large battle over Galador, but then would suddenly flee (or the more beaten sounding "limp" as the Wraith puts it) after simply one Wraith is killed in Rom 19/2. 

In summary, for the reasons I spell out above (and other reasons) I really believe that any timeline should properly have Rom annual number two immediately after the flashback in Rom number one, and before any of the Saga of the Spaceknights stories. 

Scott Kaplan.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 12:02 pm    
By lkseitz

Wow, people besides me actually care about this. I have lots of thoughts that I need to organize on this. First, I thought I'd share the handbook writer's own words (e-mailed to me previously and posted with his permission) in a separate post. 

Stuart wrote: 
>>>
I re-read all the Spaceknight appearances for the entry, and my decision as to putting them in that order was based on the following observations. You have the war, which clearly comes first, and we see in Tales of the Spaceknights that Rom and the others agree to stay cyborgs and go hunting the Wraiths down. In the rest of Tales of the Spaceknights we see Rom and his squad (Terminator, Starshine, and initially it seems one or two others) chasing Wraith forces that are fleeing Galador and hitting Galador's colony worlds. Rom appears to be a part of what is a permanent small force; taking this in conjunction with the Spaceknight Squadron, I presume that in the first wave of pursuing the Wraiths, all the Spaceknights split into small groups, not individual pursuers. The Wraiths are still active in Galador's vicinity, still very much a threat, and not yet in complete rout. The last Tales of the Spaceknights mentions Rom did not to return to Galador after Terminator's execution, but doesn't note this is when he leaves for deep space, just that its his last time he comes back to Galador for 200 years. 

By Rom Annual #2, Rom's squadron has split up, in large part because of Terminator's apparent death. This is a natural progression for each Squadron - as the Wraith forces fragment into smaller groups, so too do the Spaceknights, and we see it eventually happens to the Spaceknight Squadron too. By this time the Wraiths have been driven back to their homeworld; they are no longer menacing Galadorian colonies as they did in Tales of the Spaceknights. Rom may not have returned to Galador, but he remains in contact, until he reaches Wraithworld. At the end of this Annual, the Wraiths have fled into the far reaches of space, and Rom declares his intention to pursue them. 
<<<

I responded and he replied: 


Stuart wrote: 
>>>
lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
Unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of time to research it yet. The one thing I did notice is that in ROM ANNUAL #2, there seems to be conflicting evidence. I think what I focused on the first time I did the chronology is where it says Rom killed the queen Deathwing just 24 hours earlier. However, there's some earlier text referring to a month passing since either the Galadorian armada was destroyed or since Rom became a Spaceknight. (I'm not clear on which and don't have the issue with me right now.) Regardless, the original "Legends of the Spaceknights" flashback in ROM #1 said Galador only had "days" (not weeks) until the Wraith fleet would arrive. 
<<<

I can understand where you are coming from - the Annual does indeed say he killed the Deathwing queen less than 24 hours before. And it does also mention that its been a "less than a month" since they invaded the Golden Galaxy. However its easy enough to fit the Saga of the Spaceknights in that month. Then there is the dialogue: 

In #20, after Terminator's apparent death, we have Starshine saying "You're leaving Galador's star system? Why?" This suggests that they previously haven't left Galador's star system (note that star system may not be synonymous with our solar system), and that he is intending to venture further afield than previously. If he'd already been to the Dark Nebula, that wouldn't be the case. 

Rom also notes "In would carry my quest thither...alone" - which fits with the start of Rom Annual #2 

And as you say below, his pronouncement "Worlds light years distant are in need of our protection." and "I shall return when the Wraiths are eradicated". This seems to be the _forming_ of a vow, and matches well with Rom's pronouncement at the end of Annual #2 as to why he cannot stop even though he has driven the Wraiths from their home planet. 

Lets look at some dialogue in Annual #2 at the start "He has sworn to ... eradicate their vile race" - a vow he made in Rom #20. This seems to be after that vow then. 

The Prime Director tells the Squadron "All the races inhabiting the Golden Galaxy are safe again". But in Saga the Wraiths are still attacking planets near Galador. To me this implies those stories came prior, and the Wraiths are now driven further afield, which is supported by Raak's comments at the end of the book. Why question Rom's insistence they should continue to pursue Wraiths if the Wraiths are still present so close to Galador as to be attacking her colonies? 

In the Annual, the Wraiths are clearly in complete rout. That isn't the case in the Saga back-up stories. The only evidence to suggest they might come the other way around is the comment about Rom killing a Deathwing less than 24 hours before, and that being the first time he killed. We see Rom narrate a fight with a Deathwing in Rom #1, and its certainly suggestive that this happened at the end of the first main battle for Galador. However (1) Rom doesn't say he killed that Deathwing, only that it "fell", so that one may have survived and he killed a later one; and (2) since he is narrating it, we have to take the possibility he is condensing down the highlights of his first month for Brandy - in other words, we are seeing battle for Galador, then skipping a month or so between panels. Certainly he's glossing over his own initial reluctance to stay a Spaceknight. 

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
My alternative theory was that Rom immediately pursued the Wraiths after the battle at Galador. Because the Spaceknights were a single, cohesive force at the battle, Rom's squadron of Starshine and Terminator had not been formed yet. (Indeed, it would seem possible Terminator hadn't been transformed yet.) However, his pronouncement at the end of ROM ANNUAL #2 does contradict with his feelings in the first "Saga of the Spaceknights" chapter where the Prime Director asks them to pursue the Wraiths. 
<<<

Yes. "We will pursue them to the ends of the universe until they are all eradicated and all worlds are safe from them" followed by "But why can't we be human again. The Wraiths aren't near Galador any more" is somewhat of a contradiction. 


lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
So it's quite possible I got it wrong. I've got to take more time to look at it and make some notes. But then, I remember when I first read ROM ANNUAL #2 it already seemed in partial contradiction to the "Saga of the Spaceknights" backups. 

I can't help but wonder if Mantlo was trying to change some of the background as he went along. (Or maybe even just had a cool idea for a story and didn't care about contradicting earlier works.) 
<<<

I suspect it was very much this latter. 

_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 06 Dec 2006 05:28 pm    Post subject: Gravity
By Somebody

When was Gravity's last [chronological] appearance pre-Beyond, and was there anything to say it had to be after M-Day, if it was published afterward?

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Dec 2006 05:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hmm. Marvel Holiday Special 2005? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 07:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I think that's right. Besides that story, Beyond!, and his own 5-issue series, was there any other comic in which he appeared?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 07:54 am    
By Mikhail

Cameo in New Thunderbolts #12, I think. And did he turn down Great Lakes Avengers membership in GLA #2? I can't remember.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 08:00 am    
By Somebody

I ask mostly because Beyond is clearly pre-Civil War, and ends with Black Bolt and Medusa on US soil for reasons I won't spoil unless I really need to. 

I'd, therefore, rather Beyond was pre-Son of M to have things nice and neat rather than invent some convoluted explanation for the Inhumans getting away with being there between Son of M and Silent War, and Gravity's the only one I don't know enough about the chronology line of to say that can't be the case [all the others are fine for it as far as I can tell].

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 04:55 pm    
By garbonzo

Didn't he have an appearance in MTU? Or am I confusing him with Invincible (who i know did have an appearance). 

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 09:50 pm    
By jephyork
Director

He appeared in M/TU3 #15-18 and portions of #25, but that entire storyline happened in a divergent universe. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 10:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Cameo in New Thunderbolts #12, I think.  
<<<

Hmm. I'm afraid I'm not seeing him. 


Quote: 
>>>
And did he turn down Great Lakes Avengers membership in GLA #2?  
<<<

Nope. He's not there either. 


Quote: 
>>>
He appeared in M/TU3 #15-18 and portions of #25, but that entire storyline happened in a divergent universe.  
<<<

That's right. So we still have canonical appearances in only 12 comics.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 01:29 pm    
By Mikhail

Generic blue and white guy seen flying with a bunch of other heroes and villains under Purple Man's control on page 5, between Spider-Woman and Namorita.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 09:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I thought you might have mistaken this character for Gravity. The back of this guy's cowl/mask and shoulder area is blue. Gravity's is white.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 10:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well yeah, but it's a small picture and...who else could it be? Asgardian and Iron Lad don't look perfect either in that pic.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Dec 2006 10:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Unknown hero or villain? We can't conclude this is Gravity, especially given the discrepancy in costume pattern.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 09 Dec 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Beast and Iceman vs Metoxo in M/HOL 1994
By wolframbane

In UX 48, there was a blurb at the end of the issue stating that Iceman and Beast would face Metoxo the Lava Man in UX 49. UX 49 did not introduce Metoxo, rather the X-Men met Lorna Dane and fought Mesmero in that issue. The untold tale of Metoxo would remain untold for almost 30 years, until a flashback in the Marvel Holiday Special 1994. 

Beast and Iceman have their Chronology as listed below: 
UX 47 
M/HOL 1994-FB 
UX 49 

Unfortunately, according to the X-Men Index #3, UX 47 and UX 49 occur in May to June of Year 5. And M/HOL 1994-FB occurs at Christmas, therefore in December. I believe that M/HOL 1994-FB would have to occur at least several months after UX 47-49. There is nothing in the story to indicate it necessarily took place during the period when the X-Men were disbanded and Iceman and Beast were a duo. It would have to occur before Beast left the X-Men in July of Year 6 from AA2 11, but after Iceman and Beast recieve their 'new' costumes in April of Year 5 from UX 39. The only available December would be from Year 5, probably shortly after X:HY 22.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Dec 2006 11:10 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, but no. 

This has already been addressed, here. 

Locked. 


watching: smallville

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Posted: 11 Dec 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: A couple of questions from a newbie!
By Rix

Hi folks... Newbie here! First off, I just want to say, Amazing site here! I cannot even fathom the amount of work that has gone into this. 

Way back in the Seventies, I used to try to sort my Spider-man comics between Amazing, Marvel Team-up and Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-man. I soon discovered that this became rather complicated with multi issue story arcs appearing in both main titles at once. Anyway, once Web of Spiderman came out, it became a little too much for me and I soon gave up the challenge. Now it seems that the folks here have done it for me. I still have most of those Spider-man comics and have continued to collect right up through the present. So, I'm thinking of giving it another shot with getting all the comics in their correct reading order (not just by release date). 

Anyway, I got a little confused while going over the Spider-man section. Sometimes the issues seem to bounce back and forth. Here's an example from the list... 

ASM 289 
WOSM 29 
ASM 289 
WOSM 29 
ASM 289 
WOSM 29 
ASM 289 
WOSM 29 
ASM 289 
WOSM 30 
M/FAN 32 
PPTSS 127 
WOSM 28 
PPTSS 128 

As you can see, the list keeps bouncing back and forth between Amazing Spider-man #289 and Web of Spider-man #29. Then further down the list, we have Web of Spider-man #28 appearing after #30! Is there some reasoning behind this that I am missing or is it a mistake? 

Also, all of the lists seem to stop a couple of years ago. Are they still being updated? The new Captain America (Volume 5) does not appear at all that I can see. 

Anyway, thanks for your time!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2006 05:08 am    
By Somebody

It's not a mistake - it means that ASM289 and Web29 occur over the same time period, so Spider-Man's appearing in one between pages of the other. 

It will actually go something like this (I don't have the issues, so the page numbers are completely arbitary) 

ASM 289 (pages 68-73) 
Web 29 (pages 56-60) 
ASM 289 (pages 74-82) 
Web 29 (page 61) 
ASM 289 (pages...) 
Web 29 (pages...) 

etc, etc. 

Web 28, I don't know about, but it's rare for issues to be placed out-of-sequence. Is it a fill-in? 

And, yes, there's a Third Gap forming at the present-day. Look around the threads here and in the Issue Analysis forum for clues on them, but there's no single complete listing as of yet.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2006 08:16 am    
By Rix

Thanks, Somebody! Rather than rip apart my comics, I think I'll just have to decide to keep one in front of the other!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2006 01:49 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Rix wrote: 
>>>
Thanks, Somebody! Rather than rip apart my comics, I think I'll just have to decide to keep one in front of the other! 
<<<

I actually had a long box of comics damaged by a flood about ten years ago. The box happened to have in it Infinity War and most of the crossover books. I've replaced most of them with good copies, but I also took the opportunity to actually pull the damaged apart. 

I took the loose pages, ran them through a laminating machine (which flattened them, as well as provided long-term stability), and then reordered them according to the overall story. So now I have a 3-inch binder with the whole Infinity War storyline in proper order. 

In that particular case, the crossovers were specifically written to fill in the gaps left in the main book, so I don't know that it would work as well with the various Spider-Man titles in general. But if you're interested in ripping up, say, your Civil War books...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2006 02:25 pm    
By Somebody

That last sentence of my reply got me looking at the Updates page to see what's actually been added recently, and that led me to the "L" page, and the listings of "Lensherr, Anya" and "Lensherr, Magda." Because according to the retcon from X-Men #72, Magneto took on the "Erik Lensherr" ID after the events of CXM 12/2, where Anya was killed and Magda left him...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2006 07:51 pm    
By Rix

Quote: 
>>>
But if you're interested in ripping up, say, your Civil War books... 
<<<

I don't know if the topic of "Digital Comics" is allowed, and frankly, I don't generally approve of it, though I do have digital versions of some comics I already own. 

Anyway, this would probably be a great idea for a Civil War project. You could put pages in any order without ripping up the actual books. Seeing as how it takes me anout 2 hours to scan one comic though, it would be very labor intensive. Also, there is the fact that I don't have any of the X-Men titles having to do with the war.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2006 11:07 am    
By Col_Fury

I did something similar with Captain America's origin a few months ago. I made photocopies of Captain America Comics 1, Tales of Suspense 63, & Captain America 109 and cut them together to make one comic. They're Black & White copies, as I couldn't bring myself to cut up even the reprints, but it was fun and I'm happy with how it turned out.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Posted: 02 Dec 2006 11:26 pm    Post subject: Black Panther 22
By Col_Fury

So Storm & Black Panther visit Captain Britain in this issue. After they ask Brian about involving himself in the Civil War, he asks Black Panther when he's going to return the Ebony Blade. 

The Ebony Blade was left in Wakanda at the end of the first six issues of the current volume, where a new Black Knight left it after being arrested for trying to kill Black Panther. The way Brian asks, it's fairly apparent that the Ebony Blade has been in Wakanda ever since. 

This would seem to push NewTM Excalibur 10-12, where the Ebony Blade was a crucial plot point, to after Civil War, if the Black Panther still has it from before HoM through at least the middle of Civil War. Assuming he ever gives it back, of course. 

Does this work? How far forward can NewTM Excalibur 10-12 be pushed, depending on when Black Panther returns the Ebony Blade? It's a plot point in both series, and as far as I know there's only one Ebony Blade. And hopefully there aren't any Civil War references in NewTM Excalibur...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2006 03:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I don't think there's a problem pushing XCAL4 10-12 to a point after BP4 22. Hopefully, future plot developments in BP4 won't preclude T'Challa from handing the Ebony Blade over to his fellow Avenger Dane Whitman (BTS if need be) before the events of XCAL4 10.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Dec 2006 06:23 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The other possibility, of course, is that it's a different Ebony Blade. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that somebody knocked up a cheap copy, long enough ago for it to be considered a worthwhile artefact in its own right. I don't believe anything in BLACK PANTHER has ever stated explicitly that it's Dane's sword. 

But ideally, yes, we'd want to minimise the number of Ebony Blades wandering around.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Dec 2006 01:01 pm    
By jannepie

IIRC another Ebony Blade was brought to the main 616-timeline by Proctor. Bloodwraith (Sean Dolan) had it briefly before getting the original Ebony Blade back. 

Bloodwraith was last seen in Slorenia, where he was captured by the Scarlet Witch. (A3 36-37?) 

I don't know what happened to Proctor's Ebony Blade. I think it had slightly different curse, since IIRC it changed Sean Dolan differently.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2006 05:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Joe Quesada's weekly Newsarama raises the Ebony Blade problem. The official answer is that the one in BLACK PANTHER is a fake, and that this will be addressed further in NEW EXCALIBUR #14-15. 

Well, it's a clear answer, I'll give them that.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2006 04:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for providing that info, Paul. I still place XCAL4 10 after BP4 22, though, since in BP4 22 (or at least on page 5 of BP4 22), Captain Britain thinks T'Challa has the real Ebony Blade (or so it seems). From XCAL4 10 on, Brian knows the real Ebony Blade is in Dane's possession.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2006 05:43 pm    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Joe Quesada's weekly Newsarama raises the Ebony Blade problem. The official answer is that the one in BLACK PANTHER is a fake, and that this will be addressed further in NEW EXCALIBUR #14-15. 

Well, it's a clear answer, I'll give them that. 
<<<

Other way around - he said Dane's the one with the 'ringer, because it was stolen and a dupe substituted so as to delay arousing his suspicion (presumably, this is the reason for the otherwise mystifying "that didn't feel right" scene in NExc #14). 

I quote: 

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NJF_26.html wrote: 
>>>
Nick Lowe: Joe, we certainly CAN help the good Captain out. The Black Knight in Black Panther wasn't ya' boy, Dane Whitman. It was an imposter who stole the sword from Dane. Now, since the imposter wasn't an idiot, he knew that if he outright stole the sword, Dane would come looking for it. So he replaced it with a different sword, so Dane didn't even know it was missing. 
<<<

This, of course, doesn't fit at all with parts of NExc #10-12, but you expect Hudlin to sully his hands with "continuity"?

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 08:52 am    Post subject: DEF 2
By Dhall

Wong 
DRSTR 183 
M/FEA 1/3 
M/FEA 2 
**DEF 2 
M/PRM 4 

Sub-mariner 
SUB-M 58 
SUB-M 59 
M/FEA 2 
M/FEA 3 
**DEF 2-fb 
DEF 1 
IM 54 
DEF 2 
DEF 3 

NECRODAMUS 
**DEF 2-fb 
DEF 1 
A 128 
M/TU 130 
FF 323 
FF 324 
A 353 
A 354 

Silver Surfer 
F 121 
FF 122 
FF 123 
DEF 2-FB 
**DEF 2-FB 
DEF 2

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 09:29 am    Post subject: DEF 4
By Dhall

Enchantress 

H2 142 
A 100 
**DEF 4-FB 
DEF 4 

Executioner 
H2 102 
A 83-FB 
**DEF 4-FB 
DEF 4 

NORRISS, SISTER BARBARA DENTON 
XFOR -1 
H2 126 
DEF 3 
**DEF 4 
VAL 1-FB 
See also Valkyrie

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 09:44 am    Post subject: DEF 5
By Dhall

Aragorn 
A 100 
DEF 4-FB 
DEF 4 
**DEF 5 
DEF 7 

Yandroth 
ST 168 
M/FEA 1 
DEF 5 <--Remove, Yandroth really isn't in this issue, only his machine. 
DEF 69

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 11:38 am    Post subject: M/TU 8
By Dhall

MAN-KILLER/KATRINA LUISA VAN HORN 
**M/TU 8-FB 
**M/TU 8-FB 
M/TU 8 
DD 121-BTS 
DD 123

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 16 Dec 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: Post HoM Wolverine
By ashram316

I am looking at Wolverine's recent appearances. I may have left some things out and it may not be completely accurate. Also, the CW stuff may need to be altered. 

Here's what I have so far: 

Decimation - The Day After 
X 177-179 
Generation M 5 
New Avengers 15-20 
X 186 
X: DG 
W 36-41 
W: Origins 1-5 
W 42 ~ CW 1 
CW 2 
W 43-45 
XF 9 
W 46-48 
X 192-193 
W 49 
AX 13-18 

Does this work?

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2006 05:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

ashram, I'm still working out the CW chronology, so I won't get into details yet, but I do know some CW-era appearances -- ASM 533, NX 26, NX 29, NX 32, BP4 17, and BP4 18 among them -- are missing. 

Lots of Wolverine appearances prior to CW, including (in alpha order): 
ASM 525, 527 
BP4 14, 16 
FNSM 4, 6 
GENM 1IM4 8, 11-12 
M/KSM 20-22 
M/TU3 21, 23-25 
NA@ 1 
NX 21, 24 
PULSE 12-13 
RUN2 10-12 
THING2 8 
UX 466, 470-471 
X/RUN A 

Also, I have ASTONX3 13-18 way before CW. 

I have a big gap between A4 15 and 16 (unfortunately). And shouldn't A4 16-20 occur after X:DG 1-6? I may retreading ground from previous threads here.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2006 05:41 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Also, I have ASTONX3 13-18 way before CW. 
<<<

We've been told in no uncertain terms, by Joe Q and one of the X-editors, that Astonishing #13-24+"AXM Giant-Size Annual 1" occur at the point the last issue is published.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Dec 2006 07:35 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yeah, but I doubt that'll work. Maria Hill is shown in charge of SHIELD in #13-18, and for those who've been keeping up on their post-Civil-War spoilers, that may not work out so well by the time #24 hits the stands... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 08:35 am    
By Somebody

Depends a lot on whether he leaves Cyclops depowered or kills anyone off, I suppose (something that leaves the status quo unignorably altered is likely at any rate). But given the passage of time, the thing needs to occur over a very compressed period. I forsee the Maria Hill being another "opening day of term" thing, whereby it needs to be snipped off from the whole like the greater part of AXM1.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 08:40 am    
By Dhall

There's really no way to know until AXM 19-24 are out....

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 09:49 am    
By Mikhail

On another hand, a student in NXM recently mentioned the Danger Room scene from AXM #13 in the past tense, putting AXM #13-24 prior to the current arc of NXM #32-36.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 03:54 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'd say ASTONX3 13 goes back even further than that. In ASTONX3 13, it's noted that the last time many of the students were in the former Danger Room was in ASTONX3 12; this means that the Danger Room session involving all the students in NX 23 must occur after ASTONX3 13, and by extension, after the current ASTONX3 story arc. 

I've been under the impression that the story arc throughout the ASTONX3 series is set quite a bit before the story arcs in other X-titles. Is there any evidence that places any part of ASTONX3 in the "present?"
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 04:05 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I've been under the impression that the story arc throughout the ASTONX3 series is set quite a bit before the story arcs in other X-titles. Is there any evidence that places any part of ASTONX3 in the "present?" 
<<<

Not as such, because pretty much everything's too scared to reference anything happening in AXM (if, indeed, they even know!) because it might mess up their own chronologies; while AXM just doesn't reference anything else apart from some fairly token DeciMatory references. That NXMCE reference and the Maria Hill thing seem to be the only exceptions. 

This is the bit I mentioned from Joe Q's column, BTW, showing the current editorial intent: 


http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays15.html wrote: 
>>>
Q - The Skoot: Given recent events, is the current arc on Astonishing X-Men pre- or post-Civil War? 

JQ: Hey Skoot, I went in to Editor Nick Lowes office to get the answer directly from the source. Well, Nick isnt really the source but he does speak to the source or The Whedon as we like to refer to it. For some reason Nick isnt anywhere to be found, his office mates said he just ran out like he was afraid of something, but he did leave this note. 

Post! It takes place when the last issue comes out. At that moment in continuity. Please dont hurt me- NL 
<<<

(The "nowhere to be found"/"please don't hurt me" was a weak running gag in the column, FTR).

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 11:29 am    Post subject: CAT 1-4     
By Dhall

TIGRA 
**CAT 1-FB pg 5 panels 1-3, pg 6 panel 1 
TIGRA 1-FB pg 2 panel 1, panel 3 
**CAT 1-FB pg 6 panels 2-9, pg 7 panels 1-2 
**CAT 2-FB pg 8 panel 2 
**CAT 1-FB pg 6 panel 3 
** TIGRA 1-FB pg 2 panels 4-5 
**CAT 1-FB pg 6 panels 4-7 
**CAT 2-FB pg 8 panel 3 
**CAT 1-FB pg 6 panel 8, page 7 panels 1-3 
**CAT 2-FB pg 8 panels 4-6 
**CAT 1-FB pg 11 panel 7, page 12 
**CAT 2-FB pg 9 panels 2-4 
**CAT 1-FB pg 13 panel 2,4-6, page 14, page 17, page 18 panels 1-2 
**CAT 2-FB pg 10 panel 9, pg 11 panels 1-6 
CAT 1 
CAT 2 
**CAT 3-FB 
CAT 3 
CAT 4 

NELSON, BILL 
**CAT 1-FB pg 5 panels 1-3, pg 6 panel 1 
TIGRA 1-FB pg 2 panel 1,3 
**CAT 1-FB pg 5 panels 5-7, pg 6 panel 1 
**CAT 2-FB pg 9 panel 2 
**CAT 1-FB pg 6 panels 2-9, pg 7 panels 1-2 
**CAT 2-FB pg 8 panel 2 
** TIGRA 1-FB pg 2 panels 4-5 


**Donalbain, Mal 
CAT 1-FB pg 12 panel 3 
CAT 2-FB pg 8 panel 7 
CAT 1-FB pg 12 panels 4-6, pg 14-16 
CAT 1 

TUMOLO, DR. JOANNE 
CAT 1-FB pg 7 panel 8, page 9 panels 1-2 
**CAT 2-FB pg 8 panels 4,6 
**CAT 1-FB pg 11 panel 7, pg 12 
**CAT 2-FB pg 8 panel 7, pg 9 panels 1-4 
**CAT 1-FB pg 13-17 
CAT 2 
CAT 3-FB 
GSCR 1 
MU 10/3 

**Bryant, Shirlee 
CAT 2-FB pg 8 panel 7 
CAT 1-FB pg 12 
CAT 2-FB pg 9 panel 1 
CAT 1-FB pg 13-16 

**Richards, Ben 
CAT 2 
CAT 3-FB 

MAN-BULL/BULL TAURUS 
DD 78 
DD 79 
DD 95 
DD 96 
**CAT 4-FB 
CAT 4 
IM 72

Last edited by Dhall on 17 Dec 2006 06:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 07:10 pm    Post subject: LCHFH 9-11
By Dhall

**Faceless One 
AT 2/2 
AT 2/3 
LCHFH 9 

MR. LUCK/RAMON GARCIA 
**LCHFH 10-FB 
LCHFH 5-BTS 
LCHFH 6-BTS 
{LCHFH 10} 
LCHFH 11 

TEMPLE, CLAIRE 
LCHFH 2 
LCHFH 3 
LCHFH 4 
LCHFH 6 
LCHFH 7 
LCHFH 8 
LCHFH 10 
**LCHFH 11 
LCHFH 15 

GRIFFITH, D.W. 
LCHFH 2 
LCHFH 3 
LCHFH 4 
LCHFH 5 
FF 133 
LCHFH 8 
LCHFH 10 
**LCHFH 11 
PM 23 

BERNSTEIN, DR. NOAH <- NOte: Spelling is wrong - s/b Burstein, Dr. Noah 
LCHFH 1 
LCHFH 2 
LCHFH 3 
LCHFH 4 
LCHFH 7 
**LCHFH 11 
PM 28 

FOX, PHIL 
LCHFH 4 
**LCHFH 5 
LCHFH 10 
ASM 122-BTS 
LCHFH 11 

**FLEA 
LCHFH 5 
LCHFH 11

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 08 Nov 2006 11:57 am    Post subject: Ayesha
By Ethain

Hello, 
The Adam Warlock Compulsive Collector is back. Only a short question, by now: Should I understand that the Ayesha in FF - The End #1 is the same Ayesha that in main timestream is Her/Kismet/Ayesha?

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Nov 2006 02:53 pm    
By Somebody

There is no evidence as such - it's a white-haired caucasian female in a (red/blue) Captain Mar-Vell costume - although that doesn't stop the potential for such a revelation later. 

[Mentions again how much he hates the Kismet=Ayesha retcon]

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Nov 2006 05:34 pm    
By JLH

The what-now? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Nov 2006 10:40 pm    
By JLH

Ayesha from FF vol 3 #12 (or 13, one of those) was intended to be Kismet/Her, remember? There was a whole storyline in it involving the Collective (yet ignoring Gruenwald's stuff involving Her and them entirely), and Ayesha was supposed to be Her taking yet another new form. It's not reflected in the MCP since I suppose the lack of a flashback showing her change, and the ambiguity in the dialogue (there's only a real mention of Her on the cover, in the story she just mentions she's had a lot of names and forms and you could read it a lot of ways. Lord knows Claremont sure didn't READ any BOOKS while he was away) 

Or maybe that was an MCP oversight? Ahh, whatever.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Nov 2006 02:01 pm    
By Ethain

There was a confirmation of Ayesha=Her in the FF letters page one or two issues after Ayesha apparition.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Nov 2006 02:27 pm    
By Somebody

I know, but letters pages are usually written by interns or the most junior assistant editor handy, and are so often wrong in some way when they reveal stuff (See, for instance, how PAD repudiated the lettercol that said the MU-Hulk from the HR that said the Hulk he was writing at that time didn't get madder/stronger) that I tend to take what they say as a strike against rather than a strike for. There's nothing in the story itself to say that Ayseha wasn't a New Her - indeed, anything relating to Ayseha suggests that far more strongly than =Kismet - and given Claremont's level of waffle, you'd expect him to have got to it somewhere. 

And no "Marvel said, thus...", this is a personal opinion.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2006 01:33 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The All-New Handbook A-Z (issue #6) confirms that Ayesha is Her/Kismet in a new form -- and that she has since returned to her classic form. 

Dunno whether or not that means the Ayesha from FF: the End is the same character, but I thought I'd throw it out there. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Dec 2006 02:34 pm    
By Somebody

I know - it's basically her FF Encylopedia entry again. The justification for the latter part is MU: The End of all things, the former that lettercol.

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 20 Sep 2006 08:09 pm    Post subject: X-Men: First Class
By Jason Doty

I don't find anything blatently wrong with this first issue. We just have to assume the original X-Men used different uniforms at one point. Chronological clues would place this after the unvailing of Cerebro and after Iceman learns to "ice-up." 

Does anyone else have any comments on whether they believe this series will be classified as canon or not?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Sep 2006 09:32 pm    
By Col_Fury

Not yet. But don't these things have a habit of starting out great and then going way off course around the end? Hopefully that's not the case with this series...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Sep 2006 11:16 am    
By ytsejammer

The thing that bothered me about the issue was the references to e-mail and X-Boxes. 
I'm not sure how long ago these stories are supposed to have occured - I think about 18 to 20 years ago in Marvel Time. Would e-mail have been around then? Or do we assume that e-mail and X-Boxes were developed earlier on Earth-616? 
None of which affects the canonicity of the series, it just throws me out of the story when I see references to todays technology in stories set 20 odd years ago.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Sep 2006 11:57 am    
By Somebody

More like 12-15 than 18-20 (Paul B notwithstanding). 

At the same time though, unless it's a specific period piece (e.g. WW2), Marvel (and DC) tend not to "roll back" tech, slang etc in flashbacks/etc (the only exceptions I can think of are DP11 and CMv4 #14, which did so to take the smeg out of what 60s comics were like). It just dates the story more quickly, a concern TPBwise. 

Think of it the same way the "sliding timeline" usually operates, but in reverse. In 7 or 8 years, they'll read as the "right" dates.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2006 10:08 am    
By jephyork
Director

I was similarly confused/annoyed by the cellphones shown in "Emma Frost". But yeah, in 10 years, when FF #1 "occured in 2001", this won't be a big problem... 

However, doesn't "First Class" portray Cerebro as the movie version? A big round room with a platform in the center? That's *definitely* a bad thing, canonicity-wise... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2006 10:46 am    
By Dhall

At this time Cerebro was a small radio-like device. Also, my understanding of the First Class series is that it spends a lot of time showing the X-Men at school, something that never happened in the original series. 

Frankly, I've never understood the whole classroom aspect of the X-Titles (such as New Mutants), you have telepaths, Use them.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2006 11:51 am    
By jephyork
Director

It's not that the X-Men taking classes "never happened" -- it was just never shown. I'd welcome this series into continuity just for the addition of scenes like that, but I'm worried that things like "Cerebro-as-sphere-room" will make it untenable. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2006 12:51 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
It's not that the X-Men taking classes "never happened" -- it was just never shown. 
<<<

After they graduated in Issue #7, I do not believe that the issue of actual classroom type classes ever comes up in the series. (Unless perhaps you want to bring up the Beast's degrees, which were never mentioned until he left the team.) 

There is no evidence in the orginal series, that any of the team took classes (at Xavier's) beyond those "high school diplomas" mentioned in #7. In fact, Bobby left the team, and went to college for accounting. Jean's parents were (at one point) concerned enough about her education to force her to leave Xavier's to go off to college. Warren's parents came to the school on at least one occasion with their concerns. 

The Beast is the only team member known to have gotten an advanced degree at Xavier's. 

How early is First Class supposed to occur? If it's before #7, then this really isn't an issue. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2006 01:52 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
How early is First Class supposed to occur? If it's before #7, then this really isn't an issue. 
<<<

If it occurs before UX 7, you get into another problem. Namely, Cerebro. 


watching: live from

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2006 01:55 pm    
By Ocean Doot

"After they graduated in Issue #7, I do not believe that the issue of actual classroom type classes ever comes up in the series. (Unless perhaps you want to bring up the Beast's degrees, which were never mentioned until he left the team.) " 

But like Jeph is saying, that doesn't mean it wasn't happening. Just that it wasn't shown. I remember issue 8 or 9 (right after the "graduation" in issue 7), Stan Lee's narration made mention of how they still continue "post-graduate studies." In practice this just meant sessions in the danger room and training to hone their powers... but the narration is vague enough not to exclude classroom-type studies. 

"There is no evidence in the orginal series, that any of the team took classes (at Xavier's) beyond those "high school diplomas" mentioned in #7." 

But lack of evidence is not evidence, as they like to say 'round these parts. Plus, you admit yourself that there IS one bit of evidence ... the diplomas. In issue 7, Professor X explicitly states that the X-Men HAVE in fact completed a high-school equivalent curriculum. Then issue 8 mentions that they continue to do post-graduate studies. Both those things tend to suggest that there WAS classroom work past issue 7 (at least to me), and since there is no evidence that they DIDN'T do classroom studies, it's perfectly within reason to think they did. So to show the original team engaging in course work doesn't contradict anything. 

"Jean's parents were (at one point) concerned enough about her education to force her to leave Xavier's to go off to college. Warren's parents came to the school on at least one occasion with their concerns." 

You're really skewing certain plot points in order to defend your viewpoint. You kind of imply here that her parents transferred Jean to public college specifically because of a lack of a conventional curriculum at Xavier's. That seems to be your implication as well when you mention Warren's parents' vague "concerns." But I don't recall that being the case. In fact, didn't Warren's parents simply visit because they were in the area? And wasn't their "concern" simply due to the fact that they had called the mansion earlier and no one had answered? (I'm thinking of issues 17-18.) That's a far cry from concern over a lack of proper coursework. 

Similarly, wasn't the reason given for Jean's transferral simply that they wanted Jean to make more friends, and attend a school that had more than five students? (I may be conflating things with that later Claremont-penned issue where John Grey tells Xavier, "I always felt your school was too insular"...) 

"The Beast is the only team member known to have gotten an advanced degree at Xavier's." 

Isn't the fact that one student at Xavier's DID get an advanced degree evidence that any or all of the original X-Men could have been working toward that goal? It's obviously not evidence that they *did*, but it proves that it isn't impossible. 

"How early is First Class supposed to occur? If it's before #7, then this really isn't an issue. " 

It's after Bobby went from snowy to icy, according to the first post -- that puts it after issue 8, at least. And if Xavier is there, that puts it after issue 9 as well. I would guess either before or after issue 10, but that's just a best guess. 

Definitely not before #7, though.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2006 02:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

If the X-Men know about Cerebro, then it's after #13. 

Unless it takes place in that crazy time period that we invented to stick "Unlimited Access" in, where the X-Men learn about Cerebro early, but forget thanks to the deus ex machina where everyone forgets everything after every time they meet the DC Universe characters.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2006 02:44 pm 
By Dhall

Hmmn, I think you're reading more into my post than I meant to convey. 

My point, put another way, is this: If we see in First Class the X-men studying, taking on classwork, studying for advanced degrees, then it is a Retcon. 

I'm not saying this is impossible, just pointing out that the original series does NOT support it. I'm also pointing out that the Beast's PH.D. which is already firmly established, was also a Retcon. 

There's nothing in the original series supporting that either. 

That said, the cerebro issue, is a much more important argument here. In the original series, the X-Men neither had a movie Cerebro, nor the costumes shown in First Class.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Sep 2006 03:59 pm    
By Ocean Doot

"Hmmn, I think you're reading more into my post than I meant to convey. " 

My mistake then. Sorry. 

"If the X-Men know about Cerebro, then it's after #13. Unless it takes place in that crazy time period that we invented to stick "Unlimited Access" in, where the X-Men learn about Cerebro early, but forget thanks to the deus ex machina where everyone forgets everything after every time they meet the DC Universe characters." 

Isn't there already a continuity flub where this is concerned? I seem to recall an issue before X-Men #13 in which Professor X casually mentions Cerebro while all the X-Men are in the room, not just Cyclops. 

The reason it sticks in my brain is because I remember reading issue 12, where Cyclops whines about how Cerebro is supposed to be a secret, and thinking, "What?" Because that secret had already been blown earlier. Am I just making this up?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2006 06:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

On page 1 of UX 12, Cerebro (pictured as a desktop unit in Xavier's office) blares, signalling the presence of a nearby mutant (which turns out to be the non-mutant Juggernaut...). The X-Men rush in and Cyclops shouts, "Stay out, all of you! No one is supposed to know about the Professor's Cerebro machine."
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2006 08:27 am    
By Ocean Doot

Maybe my post is being misinterpreted now. As I said, " I remember reading issue 12, where Cyclops whines about how Cerebro is supposed to be a secret..." 

My point was, wasn't there an earlier issue where Professor X already blew this "secret"? Maybe it was the Ka-Zar issue? Where Professor X says, "Ka-Zar isn't a mutant. If he was, Cerebro would have told me." When Professor X says that, all of the X-Men are present, aren't they? But again, I could be making this up. 

Maybe in issue 12, Cyclops just means that the *location* of Cerebro is supposed to be a secret ...?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2006 05:32 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Xavier does indeed mention Cerebro in issue #10. He's talking to Cyclops, but the rest of the X-Men are in the room. However, in issue #12 none of the X-Men recognise it (aside from Cyclops), and that's also consistent with issue #7 where Xavier introduces Cyclops to Cerebro and says "You are the only other person who will share my secret." 

It's inconsistent - for all that people hanker after the glory days of continuity, they certainly weren't the 1960s - but the weight of evidence is clearly that the X-Men as a whole don't learn about Cerebro until issue #12.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Sep 2006 08:20 pm    
By Dhall

I finally flipped through the issue. The fact that it has a sentinent Cerebro, and that it's the movie version is enough to make me think that this comic happens within the movie Universe, and not in continuity. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2006 04:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Cerebro here isn't necessarily sentient, but it certainly talks, and doubles as an automated teacher. This bears no resemblence to anything Cerebro used to do in the comics, although strictly speaking it isn't a contradiction. 

FIRST CLASS can't be movie continuity, because the X-Men join up in a different order in that universe. 

Incidentally, strange as it sounds, the throwaway reference to the X-Men having a "staff" IS supported by the Silver Age comics, where one of the early issues features Jean cooking for the team because it's the cook's day off. None of the X-Men's domestic staff have ever been seen on panel.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2006 10:04 am    
By Ocean Doot

"It's inconsistent - for all that people hanker after the glory days of continuity, they certainly weren't the 1960s - but the weight of evidence is clearly that the X-Men as a whole don't learn about Cerebro until issue #12." 

Thanks for confirming about issue 10. Now I know I'm not insane! 

As for placing First Class, if it is decided that the series is canon, I guess my point is that if the original stories are already inconsistent, I wonder how much it matters that First Class go after issue 13, since the X-Men's knowledge of Cerebro was already played inconsistently in the original comics. 

But I guess it might all be moot anyway...

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2006 01:52 pm    
By Col_Fury

As for Cerebro: Is it possible that in the Silver Age issues, only the Professor's convenient desk top unit was shown? And that the 'real' Cerebro was always in the basement? 

We'd still have to deal with different artistic rendering of Cerebro over the years, only to have them match up recently to look like the movie version. Does that even work?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2006 02:02 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
We'd still have to deal with different artistic rendering of Cerebro over the years, only to have them match up recently to look like the movie version. Does that even work? 
<<<

Not for me. A talking Cerebro, and the costumes scream not in continuity to me.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2006 06:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The "real" Cerebro was a massive computer located elsewhere. At least I'm pretty sure it was -- I seem to recall Xavier tinkering with (and partially inside) a large machine in an early issue (possibly one of the "Origins of the X-Men" flashbacks). It's very probable that the desktop was just the interface. 

However, that doesn't necessarily mean that movie-Cerebro has been in the basement since 1963. 

As for the outfits -- if we can stick the entire series in-between two issues, I'd be happy to overlook the costumes as "something they wore once for a week, then switched back". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2006 10:14 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
The "real" Cerebro was a massive computer located elsewhere. 
<<<

I can't recall anything that supports this.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2006 12:19 am    
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
As for Cerebro: Is it possible that in the Silver Age issues, only the Professor's convenient desk top unit was shown? And that the 'real' Cerebro was always in the basement?  
<<<

Several flashbacks set before UX 1 have depicted Cerebro with the traditional helmet desaign rather than the punch-cards-in-a-desk version of the early Silver Age. Either the version in Xavier's desk was only an interface with the other, retroactively older version, or Xavier had more than one Cerebro. Either explanation could allow for the existence of a third, visually dissimilar Cerebro device, which may or may not be directly connected to the other version(s) or Cerebro. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2006 09:20 am    
By Ocean Doot

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
The "real" Cerebro was a massive computer located elsewhere. 
<<<
I can't recall anything that supports this. 
<<<

I think this is referring to X-Men #7, when Prof X first shows Scott Cerebro. It's a weirdly shaped, labyrinthine mechanism.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2006 10:55 am    
By jephyork
Director

That's what I'm thinking of, yes. 

And hey, yeah, Sean -- UX #273 has a pre-UX #1 flashback with the modern-style Cerebro helmet, doesn't it? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2006 10:59 am    
By Somebody

So does X-Men: The Wedding Album

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2006 01:51 pm    
By Dhall

I can accept that Xavier has a plug in Cerebro helmet. After all, in the old series Cerebro is usually depicted as a mechanical device that sounds an alarm when mutants are within a certain range of the school. Xavier only occasionally used it to activly search out new mutants in those days, so if he's going to use his telepathy to augment Cerebro's detection capabilities, a plug in helmet makes a lot of sense. 
And since none of the other X-Men are telepathic (at this time) there's no reason why they would know about the helmet. 

That doesn't violate continuity or even seem like much of a retcon to me. 

Now, having a giant Cerebro room in the basement, with a talking Cerebro, that's a continuity violation. 

Please keep in mind that Xavier did not have access to much advanced technology before he met Lilandra. Cerebro was always kind of ****py in the original series, it never worked very well, unless a mutant was on the estate.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2006 03:38 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Please keep in mind that Xavier did not have access to much advanced technology before he met Lilandra. 
<<<

Except for the Danger Room and its numerous robots. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Sep 2006 08:57 pm    
By Dhall

Completely mechanical tech yes. Xavier didn't have anything more advanced than this until he met Lil. 

Certainly nothing that talked!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Sep 2006 10:07 am    
By jephyork
Director

Colosso didn't talk?  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Sep 2006 01:36 pm    
By Dhall

Now there's an X-Men Unlimited Story that should have been told.... 

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2006 11:39 pm    
By wolframbane

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Please keep in mind that Xavier did not have access to much advanced technology before he met Lilandra. Cerebro was always kind of ****py in the original series, it never worked very well, unless a mutant was on the estate. 
<<<

Actually, in Cable v2 #45, Xavier meets Cable before Cyclops is recruited, and Cable upgrades at least some of the mansion with futuristic technology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2006 05:19 am    
By Dhall

True enough, but I doubt Cable brought a big honking Cerebro with him, and by the way, that Fb isn't listed in the MCP. Care to write it up, and take a stab at where it in Charlie's listing it goes?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2006 03:00 am    
By JD

Um. Issue #4 is a straight sequel to X-MEN #33, with numerous references to its plot. 

We also learn that the mini's uniforms are version "2.0", and that at least Jean's pointed mask is being "fixed" (the next best thing to the "in the wash" explanation, then.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2006 09:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Issue #3 also contained several elements which looked like an outright bid for canonical status. Cerebro was expressly described as a prototype. There was also a reference to the team's regular costumes being unavailable because they were being (I think) repaired, or something along those lines. 

At this stage, I'm leaning strongly towards FIRST CLASS being canon, since there's very strong internal evidence to suggest that this was the creators' intention, and there are no continuity errors so fundamental as to disqualify an otherwise canonical book.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2006 10:22 am    
By JD

This leaves quite narrow a gap for the mini (or at least #4, but I would put it all together) to happen : Xavier is kidnapped in X-MEN #33 simultaneously to the events referred to in X:FC #4, and is only rescued at the end of #39. He is then retconned to have been replaced by the Changeling before the beginning of #41, who dies in #42. 
So I would put this somewhere between X-MEN #39 and #41. 

The "2.0" costumes sit a bit uneasily with the new costumes given at the end of #39, though. Maybe these weren't quite ready yet ?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Dec 2006 12:02 pm    
By garbonzo

JD wrote: 
>>>
Maybe these weren't quite ready yet ? 
<<<

The Saturday Night Live of Costumes? 

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 23 Dec 2006 03:01 pm    Post subject: Terri Sue Bottoms
By metaldragon

A character who only real importance AFAIK was as Bobby (Iceman) Drake's girlfriend post-Champions and pre-Defenders while he was in college. Her two (that I know of) appearances were in: 

Bottoms, Teresa "Terri" Sue 

H@ 7 
M/TIO 76 

Does anyone know if she appeared anywhere else by herself without Iceman?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Dec 2006 03:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Do we know that her name is Teresa? 


watching: east carolina vs south florida

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Dec 2006 06:21 pm    
By metaldragon

Yes, Bobby gives her full name when he introduces her to Candy and Warren in H@ 7. After drooling over Angel she says call me Terri.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 05:28 pm    Post subject: Black Bolt Chronology
By blue

Happy Holidays! 
Just have a few days off, and had a chance to revisit that topic of my obsession, Black Bolt. 

I sent a version of this to the administrator as well as I wasn't sure best to post suggestions. Sorry for double-posting... 

For your consideration, I would suggest the following tweaks of the Black Bolt chronology: 

1) T 148/2 is listed a second time between FF@5 and SUB-M 2. While this makes sense from year of publication date (T 148/2 is 1967, as is FF@5, while SUB-M is 1968), the locations don't match. 

The Inhumans left Attilan temporarily in FF59 to let them rebuild the city after Black Bolt's shout destroyed the city. They are still on the "island sanctuary" in FF@5 and SUB-M 2. Black Bolt gets summoned back to Attilan at the beginning of H@ 1 to judge some renegade Inhumans (p.3). T 148/2 sees Black Bolt flying over Attilan. I would suggest that T 148/2 takes place after H@ 1, but before the Inhumans next big fight with Maximus in FF 82 (where Black Bolt is already captured). 

2) Secondly, the events of DF 2.3 and DF 3.5 take place during an interlude in the middle of this same battle with Maximus in FF 83 while Human Torch tries to steal the golden apple slice (and gets confronted by Black Bolt and the other Inhumans). It occurs right after the Thing takes out Zorr on page 14 of FF 83. I would therefore suggest splitting up FF 83 into two, and placing DF 2.3 and DF 3.5 in between FF 83 and FF 83. 


3) MTIO 72 is listed in Black Bolt's chronology, but the story arc begins the issue before. Although he doesn't appear, he is mentioned as follows. 
MTIO 71 page 15: last panel: Gorgon states: "It is our task to safeguard the anti-terrigen compound. That is why Black Bolt instructed us to be here" Does this qualify as a BTS moment? If so, then I would suggest putting "MTIO 71-BTS" right before MTIO 72 on the chronology chart. 

Thanks to all for your efforts 

Edwin Tam

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 07:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Gorgon states: "It is our task to safeguard the anti-terrigen compound. That is why Black Bolt instructed us to be here" Does this qualify as a BTS moment?  
<<<

If this refers to a specific instruction just made by Black Bolt to Gorgon et al (as opposed to a general standing order to have someone guarding the compound), then this certainly does qualify as a BTS for Black Bolt.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 09:08 pm    
By blue

Hmmm, I think the order is specific. 

Also, to clarify, the scene in MTIO 71 is on p15 of the comic but p11 without the ads...

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 11:31 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

For future reference, the convention here is to count story pages only, not ads or recaps. Thanks, blue!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 01:47 pm    Post subject: Villains in Daughters of the Dragon #4
By jannepie

DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON #4 has a lot of cameo villains in page 15. There are two that I can't recognize. 

Panel 3: Mandrill, Sandman, Deadpool, unidentified man in black cowl 

Panel 4: Droog and his owner. Is the owner a new one or an established Marvel character? 

Panel 5: Walrus, Mr. Fish

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 02:42 pm    
By Enda80

The Gremlin had a dog named Droog. Either that or Malcolm McDowell.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 02:29 am    
By jannepie

Gremlin is dead, isn't he? 

Also, IIRC Gremlin was bald. This owner has some black hair on his head.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 03:31 pm    
By Somebody

jannepie wrote: 
>>>
Gremlin is dead, isn't he? 
<<<

High-profile Armour Wars death, yeah (Iron Man accidently ignited his Titanium Man armour with his bootjets).

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: Handbook#12
By Enda80

Zola entry 

references Sculpture, Shark-Man, and Corpse....where did they appear? 

Hate-Monger addition: 1955 adventure with Ward Stocker 

Battle#16 (I Saw Hitler Die) now canon 

V-Battalion references a Magneto encounter

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 11:43 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Hate-Monger addition: 1955 adventure with Ward Stocker 
<<<

Without an actual comic book title and issue number, that isn't much help. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 01:47 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Battle#16 (I Saw Hitler Die) now canon 
<<<

Has anyone here ever doubted it was canon? 


watching: cops

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 02:39 pm    
By Enda80

Sculpture, Shark-Man, and the Corpse were villains from 1940s Timely stories 
(All-Winners Comics #6, Kid Komics #4, and Young Allies #15, respectively); 
since Zola was around during WWII, it is possible that he was involved BTS with 
the mutation/creation of any golden age Axis villains. 

Ward Stocker is from Rugged Action #4 (1955), story title "I Killed ." I 
didn't think of it back when the -Monger profile was being written, but I 
remembered it this time. 

1/53: Battle #16 (25 pages + cover) 
Cover Credits: Russ Heath (penciller); Russ Heath (inker) 
"I Saw Die" (7 pages) 
Credits: unknown (writer); Russ Heath (penciller); Russ Heath (inker) 

Ronald Byrd 

Sad to say, Surfwatch has inhibited my posting. Let us see what happens if I try to write about ...

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 03:32 pm    
By Somebody

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Sad to say, Surfwatch has inhibited my posting. 
<<<

Can't think why 

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 03:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Let us see what happens if I try to write about ... 
<<<

That's what happens. 

If you look at Enda's post in Supercool Moderator Mode, you can see big empty spaces where a certain word is missing. Looks like someone's set up a filter to keep him from saying that word -- can't think why. 

In this case, though, it's kind of relevant, so I'll go ahead and reinstate them: 


Quote: 
>>>
Ward Stocker is from Rugged Action #4 (1955), story title "I Killed Hitler." I didn't think of it back when the Hate-Monger profile was being written, but I remembered it this time. 

1/53: Battle #16 (25 pages + cover) 
Cover Credits: Russ Heath (penciller); Russ Heath (inker) 
"I Saw Hitler Die" (7 pages) 
Credits: unknown (writer); Russ Heath (penciller); Russ Heath (inker) 
<<<

My question is -- do either of these stories match up to the commonly-accepted Marvel Universe death of Hitler (i.e., burned to death by the original Human Torch)? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 03:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Surfwatch has inhibited my posting. Let us see what happens if I try to write about ... 
<<<

Maybe you can get around that by referring to him as the Strongly-Dislike-Monger. 


watching: alabama vs oklahoma state

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 04:01 pm    
By Enda80

I used a public library's computer when I posted my earlier message that got truncated. 

The Zola entry retroactively states that the man shot to death in the Battle story was a decoy clone of Adi, while the other story dealt with a man who encountered Adi in 1955 with Adi living clandestinely as a fugitive (Adi claims that he faked his death, but we all know that prophets don't often tell the whole truth). Ward Barker kills Adi, but we can now say that just represents one of Adi's cloned bodies he jumped into, and after his death Adi jumped into another cloned body. Perhaps that was the body of Adi found in Erewhon or was it Erewon? 

Note: To avoid surfwatch, I referred to the person as "Adi", a nickname, similar to Adidas for Adi Dassler.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 04:09 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
My question is -- do either of these stories match up to the commonly-accepted Marvel Universe death of Hitler (i.e., burned to death by the original Human Torch)? 
<<<

I want to say it's been shown that the Torch set it up, so that it would appear as if Hitler killed himself. 

Keep that in mind, if we're going to try to reconcile other accounts. 


watching: alabama vs oklahoma state

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 04:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Wow. 

I think I actually understand now.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 04:17 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Let us see what happens if I try to write about ... 
<<<

That's what happens. 

If you look at Enda's post in Supercool Moderator Mode, you can see big empty spaces where a certain word is missing. Looks like someone's set up a filter to keep him from saying that word -- can't think why. 

In this case, though, it's kind of relevant, so I'll go ahead and reinstate them: 
<<<

They originally went through, BTW - I saw the big list, which prompted my "can't think why" post....

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 04:41 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
They originally went through, BTW - I saw the big list 
<<<

Sigh. I know. I edited the list of names out myself -- which prompted my "that's what happens" reply. 


Quote: 
>>>
I want to say it's been shown that the Torch set it up, so that it would appear as if Hitler killed himself. 
<<<

Interesting -- I think the only account I ever read of it was from FF3 #51-54, and as far as I remember, it was a panel of the Torch simply incinerating Hitler. 

And yes, Enda, I too was reminded of the corpse of Hitler that we saw in the town of Erewhon (and I think the backstory was that he smuggled himself out of Germany, founded Erewhon and died there) -- but for the nice folks without computer-like memories, let's remind them that you're referring to the recent "Wolverine / Punisher" miniseries, okay? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 06:05 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I want to say it's been shown that the Torch set it up, so that it would appear as if Hitler killed himself. 
<<<

It's the other way around, according to WI? 4: after the Torch fatally burned Hitler, Hitler ordered one of his flunkies to tell the world that he'd killed himself. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 06:37 pm    
By Enda80

I wonder when the Hate-Monger learned to speak English. In Saga of the Original Human Torch#3, the Torch noted that Adi could not speak English.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 07:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Apparently, the Torch was wrong. 


watching: texas a&m vs california

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 11:05 pm    
By Col_Fury

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
according to WI? 4: after the Torch fatally burned Hitler, Hitler ordered one of his flunkies to tell the world that he'd killed himself.  
<<<

Right. And the Torch went along with it, thinking the world would be better off under the impression that he had taken the 'coward's way out.' He then went on to comment that Hitler lied with his dying breath.  

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
I wonder when the Hate-Monger learned to speak English.  
<<<

In the real-world, Hitler didn't understand any language besides German. In the Marvel Universe, it depended on who was writing him...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 11:06 pm    
By Somebody

And then there's the gun from Dr Strange: The Oath #1...

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 11:18 pm    
By Col_Fury

What's that? I didn't pick this up, so I'm kind of lost here. 

Maybe it's the gun he was going to shoot himself with, before he was interrupted?(as shown in What If...? 4 & Saga of the Human Torch)
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 06:17 am    Post subject: Alpha Flight Special
By Alpha Trion

I'm having trouble placing this and the backups from early AF issues in my personal read order. Rhino appears in the AF Special, and his chronology places it between Hulk 124 and 157. But Dr. Strange is in AF 7/2 (which happens after the special) between ST 146 and 147, which is just a few strips after Reed & Sue's wedding. Is it possible to push ST 147 all the way past Hulk 124? Or is there a mix-up somewhere?

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 11:29 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'm not sure I see the problem. Why *wouldn't* it be possible to place ST 147 after H2 124? Is there a placement clue here that you haven't mentioned? You mention FF@ 3 -- is that relevant somehow? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 01:23 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'm not sure I see the problem. Why *wouldn't* it be possible to place ST 147 after H2 124? 
<<<

Not likely. As a frame of reference, DRSTR 183 continues into SUB-M 22, and from there, into H2 126. 

And for the record, Alpha Trion, we have AF 6/2 between ST 146/2 and 147/2 in Doctor Strange's listing, not AF 7/2. 


watching: cyber-tracker 2

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 02:29 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that DRSTR 183 comes after ST 147. 

You know, I know I'm a bigshot moderator and all, and I realize you probably did that on purpose, Russ, but it'd be nice if folks held the reader's hand and walked him through, point A to point B to point C, of why a given chronology isn't working. My area of expertise is the X-books, not 1960s Doctor Strange and Hulk. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 03:27 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that DRSTR 183 comes after ST 147. 
<<<

DrS v1 #183 = ST 183 (i.e., title change, numbering continued)

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 03:48 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks. Like I said, this isn't my area of expertise. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 08:01 pm    
By Alpha Trion

Sorry, I should have been more clear on why it was a problem. And I did realize after posting that I had the wrong Alpha Flight issue as the Strange guest appearance. 

I mentioned FF@ 3 because Strange's listing suggests the AF Special happens near that point in continuity or earlier, because he appears in AF 6/2 not terribly long after the wedding, and that backup takes place after the Special. But Rhino has it going somewhere among stories from the early 70s.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 08:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The problem is the Rhino. AF SPECIAL occurs not too long after FF@ 3, and that holds true in everyone's listings, except for Rhino. Up until a couple of months ago, AF SPECIAL was in the Rhino's listing, between H2 104 and H2 124. 

A recent audit of H2 124 uncovered a flashback that bridges the gap between H2 104 and H2 124, meaning that AF SPECIAL no longer fit there, and was moved to just after H2 124. 

As it turns out, even the original placement was too late, relative to other chronologies, but a flashback in H2 104 bridges the gap between ASM 43 and H2 104. 

AF SPECIAL rightfully belongs somewhere between ASM 43 and H2 104. Does anyone care to examine Rhino's appearances during this period and offer a suggestion? 

Exactly how much time occurs between FF@ 3 and AF SPECIAL is up for debate. Note that only a few books are listed between the appearances for Doctor Strange, but Spider-Man appears in almost a year of his own title between FF@ 3 and ASM 43. I suppose it's possible that AF SPECIAL could be placed later in Doctor Strange's chronology, to account for this, if necessary. Any problems with that? 


watching: veronica mars

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 03:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Russ, I do have Rhino placed in AF SPECIAL between ASM 43 and H2 104. In ASM 43, his first costume was dissolved by acid. In H2 104, he is given a new, stronger costume to replace it. I think one can assume that Rhino appears in a second costume in AF SPECIAL that was short-lived and didnt work out and that the improved version from H2 104 was his third costume. I suggest that Egghead actually supplied Rhino with the second suit as part of the deal that Egghead made in hiring the villains in that issue, and that Egghead took the costume away after their defeat. Note that instead of just saying me to Egghead when he lists the villains gathered in AF SPECIAL, Rhino says me in my Rhino suit, like the Rhino suit was part of the deal. 

Here are my notes for AF SPECIAL: 

ALPHA FLIGHT SPECIAL #1 (beginning) 
(one night and next day; sometime after AF 8/2; must occur before AF3 2-FB-FB; according to OMITTA 1, this segment must occur after TOS 88/2; the fact that Sean Benard does not recognize the Fantastic Four in a photograph may be topical, or Benard may be extremely out-of-touch) 
Guardian II (as James Hudson), Wolverine (as Logan), Sasquatch (as Walter Langkowski), Snowbird (as Narya), Groundhog (as Sean Benard), Smart Alec (as Alec Thorne), Saint Elmo, Pierre Trudeau, Deighton, Egghead, Swordsman, Goliath III (as Power Man), Porcupine, Eel, Rhino, Solarr, [Frazer], [Arnolds] 

ALPHA FLIGHT SPECIAL #1 (end) 
(one day, the next day, and two days later; begins three weeks after the end of AF SPECIAL 1 beginning; according to OMITTA 1, this segment must occur before A@ 1) 
Guardian II (as James Hudson), Wolverine, Snowbird, Groundhog, Smart Alec, Saint Elmo, Stitch, Egghead, Swordsman, Goliath III (as Power Man), Eel, Porcupine, Rhino, Solarr 


Also, Solarr appears here between CA 160-FB (his origin story) and CA 160. CA 160-FB is not listed in the MCP.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 03:46 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, Paul. 


watching: texas vs iowa state

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 04:04 pm    Post subject: FF adjustment, thanks to MARVELS
By ADMINISTRATOR

Just alerting those people who care about these things, that a close reading of Marvels is requiring a correction to the Avengers Index. 

MARVELS 3 has Attuma's attack (from A 26-27) taking place before Galactus and Silver Surfer appear in FF 48-50 (also before the Thing and Human Torch battle Dragon Man in FF 47, for that matter). 

We currently have the Fantastic Four appearing in A 25 between pages of FF 50, but thanks to Marvels, that no longer works, and I'm moving the FF appearance in A 25 to just prior to FF 44. 


watching: alabama vs oklahoma state

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 07:33 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Before we consider what ripple effect that move might have on other titles, is there any chance at all that MARVELS 3 (11p2-41p2) occurs out of sequence -- between pages 33 and 34 of MARVELS 2?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 04:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'd rather reverse the order, and consider the ripple effects before considering ripping pages out of order. 


watching: south carolina vs houston

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 05:01 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I've spot-checked the chronologies for Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Human Torch II, Thing, Captain America, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Doctor Doom, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, Daredevil, Doctor Strange, Nick Fury, Hulk and Sub-Mariner, and I don't find any problems. 

The Inhumans appear in this stretch in FF, so it might be worth looking into their chronologies, to see if there are any problems. 


watching: south carolina vs houston

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Dec 2006 10:51 pm    
By Col_Fury

This isn't exactly relevant to the FF, but after picking apart Marvels 1, I can say that Busiek did an extremely good job with established Marvel WWII history, without having to rearrange any Golden Age books, or pages within Marvels 1. 

If the Inhumans don't present any problems in this area, I'd say adjust the listings instead of pages within Marvels. And if the Inhumans do present a problem, I'd still say deal with it until there's absolutely no other option.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 03:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, Busiek does have a reputation for impeccable continuity. So it's a bit confounding that the order of events in MARVELS doesn't match the chronology established in the Indexes. Fortunately, a move won't contradict anything published in MARVEL SAGA, as the "continuity corner" feature of that title ended just prior to this period. 

Okay, let me go back and see about reorganizing the Avengers Year-By-Year project. (Sigh)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 07:17 pm    
By Somebody

I'm pretty sure Busiek talked about how went back and did the timeline for Marvels from first principles (i.e., he researched all the timelines involved by reading the comics himself, rather than bothering with the Indicies) in at least one edition of the TPB. That's how he ended up finding the "Wasp fashion line" detail for the bg of the Night of the Sentinels and a few other things like that.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 08:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It actually wasn't very difficult to shuffle some things around during this summer between Peter Parker's senior year of high school and freshman year of college. A 19-25 and a few closely related entries got pushed earlier in the calendar, as did UX 14-18, which also ties into MARVELS. This had the effect of pushing FF 48-50 from July to August, which I don't think is a problem. The overall calendar now has scenes from MARVELS in the proper order, and the Avengers chronology is changed a little. Here's what this segment of Avengers Year-By-Year looks like now, from Reed's and Sue's wedding in late June through August: 

** LATE JUNE ** -- 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3 (page 1-page 12, panel 3) 
(Reed Richards and Sue Storms wedding day) 
Thor, Iron Man (as Tony Stark) 

MARVEL: HEROES & LEGENDS #1 (page 2, panel 1-page 9, panel 3) 
Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3 (page 12, panel 4-page 14, panel 1) 
Captain America, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Quicksilver 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3 (page 14, panels 2-3)/MARVEL: HEROES & LEGENDS #1 (page 11, panels 3-5) 
Hawkeye, [Captain America] 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3 (page 14, panel 4) 
Hawkeye, [Captain America] 

MARVEL: HEROES & LEGENDS #1 (pages 12-24) 
Hawkeye, [Captain America] 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3 (page 14, panel 5-page 19, panel 2) 
Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Quicksilver 

MARVEL: HEROES & LEGENDS #1 (page 28, panel 1-page 41, panel 3) 
Captain America, Iron Man, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3 (page 19, panel 5) 
Iron Man 

MARVEL: HEROES & LEGENDS #1 (page 41, panel 4-page 42, panel 1) 
Hawkeye 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3 (page 19, panel 5-page 22, panel 2)/MARVEL: HEROES & LEGENDS #1 (page 42, panel 2-page 45, panel 1) 
Captain America, Hawkeye 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3 (page 22, panel 3) 
Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye 

MARVEL: HEROES & LEGENDS #1 (page 45, panels 2-4) 
Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3 (page 23) 
Thor, Iron Man, [Captain America], [Giant-Man (as Hank Pym)], [Wasp (as Janet Van Dyne)], [Hawkeye], [Quicksilver], [Scarlet Witch] 

MARVELS #2 (page 33) 
Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

STRANGE TALES #160 (1st story: flashback) 
Captain America 

STRANGE TALES #161 (1st story: flashback) 
Captain America 


** JULY ** -- 

AVENGERS #145 (flashback: beginning) 
Captain America, Hawkeye 

WEST COAST AVENGERS #4 (flashback) 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #124 (1st story) 
Thor 

TALES TO ASTONISH #74 (2nd story) 
Hulk 

AVENGERS #280 (flashback: page 9, panel 2-page 10, panel 2) 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

AVENGERS #19 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Swordsman 

AVENGERS #20 
(a calendar shows the date as the 23rd -- must be July 23) 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Swordsman 

TALES OF SUSPENSE #69 (1st story) 
Iron Man 

TALES OF SUSPENSE #70 (1st story) 
Iron Man 

TALES OF SUSPENSE #71 (1st story) 
Iron Man 


** AUGUST ** -- 

AVENGERS #21 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, [Iron Man (as Tony Stark)] 

AVENGERS #22 (beginning) 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

MARVELS #3 (page 4, panels 1-2) 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

TALES OF SUSPENSE #72 (1st story) 
Iron Man 

AVENGERS #22 (end) 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

AVENGERS #23 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

AVENGERS #24 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

AVENGERS #25 (beginning) 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

STRANGE TALES #138 (1st story) 
Iron Man (as Tony Stark) 

STRANGE TALES #139 (1st story) 
Iron Man (as Tony Stark) 

STRANGE TALES #140 (1st story) 
Iron Man (as Tony Stark) 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #125 (1st story) 
Thor 

AVENGERS #145 (flashback: middle) 
Captain America, Hawkeye 

MIGHTY THOR #126 (1st story) 
Thor 

CAPTAIN AMERICA #301 (1st flashback) 
Captain America, Hawkeye 

TALES TO ASTONISH #75 (2nd story) 
Hulk 

TALES TO ASTONISH #76 (2nd story) 
Hulk 

TALES TO ASTONISH #77 (2nd story) 
Hulk 

TALES TO ASTONISH #78 (2nd story) 
Hulk 

TALES TO ASTONISH #79 (2nd story) 
Hulk 

AVENGERS #25 (end) 
Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

SHADOWS & LIGHT #1 (3rd story) 
Iron Man 


One of these years, I'll have to get around to updating this feature on the Avengers Assemble web site, which is way out of date. http://www.avengersassemble.us/bourcier/bourciertoc.html
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 31 Dec 2006 02:55 am    Post subject: X-Men Unlimited 16
By Shadowdragon

According to the chronology X-Men Unlimited 16 is supposed to go after Generation X 31. At the end of Gen X 31 Banshee tells Emma she's no longer welcome at the school, yet in X-Men Unlimited 16 she's at the school like nothing happened. Did something happen that I missed, or is X-Men Unlimited 16 supposed to go somewhere else?

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Dec 2006 03:10 am    
By JLH

I wish I could say why, but no, this is never addressed anywhere. Not in Gen X 32, not in the Wizard half... they just drop it and pretend things happened differently than they actually did.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 04 Dec 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Stan Lee Meets Dr. Doom
By SKleefeld
Director

More analyses to annoy Jeph... 

Stan Lee Meets Dr. Doom 

p. 1 -- Stan's at home working on a model ship. Doorbell rings, and it's a short guy in European dress that asks that Stan meet with Dr. Doom. "Stubby" zaps Stan with a ray-gun. 

p. 2-p. 4 panel 3 -- Stan materializes in Doom's castle in Latveria. Doom starts wondering aloud how he's depicted as a villain in American comic books. 

p.4 panel 4 -- Outside the castle, while Doom is still talking, several Doombots face off against a mob of villagers. (Love a good mob of villagers shot!) 

p. 5- p. 6 panel 1 -- Above the castle, while Doom is still talking, several ships are shot down by what appear to be automated defense lasers. 

p. 6 panel 2 -- Doom still talking. 

p. 7 panel 1 -- Out side the castle walls, looking at the now-wrecked ships from p. 5. Doom's still talking. Best dialogue of the book in this panel BTW: "Look at all the wreckage of enemy weaponry that my poor subjects have to clean up. Do I complain? Do I make a big megillah over it?" 

p. 7 panels 2-3 -- Doombots attacking villagers. Doom still talking. 

p. 7 panel 4 - p. 9 -- Doom eventually winds up by saying that he wants Lee to use his influence stop people from seeing him as a villain. Lee counters that he doesn't have much influence any more and just makes cameos in superhero movies, handing Doom a DVD of the FF flick. Doom realizes that Lee is right and has a Doombot send him home. "The man is a total loser. I should'a shot him, but why waste a bullet? Only one thing will improve my mood -- toss more peasants into the dungeons!" 

The Rest of the Story! 
This picks up from the last pages of FF #40. I haven't gone back to see exactly how these new panels overlap with the originals... 

p. 1 panel 1 -- Exterior of the Baxter Bldg. Smoke and flames are billowing out of the top floor. 

p. 1 panels 2-4 -- Ben Grimm changes into the Thing. 

p. 2 - p. 4 panel 4 -- Ben cuts loose on Doom and crushes his hands. 

p. 4 panels 5-6 -- Reed tells the rest of the team to let Doom go in his humiliation. 

pp. 5-6 -- Doom in his Latverian castle. He's just pulled his gloves off and Boris begins bandaging his hands. 

pp. 7-9 -- Boris talks about how everyone else is beneath Doom, and that's why he always runs away from them. We're treated to a series of one-panel flashbacks showing Doom running away from just about every one of his prior encounters with the FF and/or Spider-Man. 

p. 10 panels 1-2 -- Doom realizes what Boris is saying and vows that he won't stop until he rules the world and sees Reed dead. 

p. 10 panels 2-5 -- Boris leaves and pulls off his mask to reveal himself as Stan Lee: "*Whew!* The world's greatest villain and for a second there, I thought he was really going to quit!" 

True Believer 
Two-pager explaining how Tom Bedland's buddy Curtis created Big Daddy-O, a brown doughnut-thing that went to the grocery store. People responded to that more than Tom's better illustrated Super-Ant because Big Daddy-O had soul, kind of like Stan Lee had imbued in Spider-Man. Tom had to limit his Stan Lee-ishness to "Excelsior!", "Face Font!" and "Nuff said!" 

The Power and the Pride 
Reprint of FF #87.

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 01 Nov 2006 07:00 am    Post subject: November call for analyses
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'll probably just go ahead a post a new call thread at the start of each month. Here's the call for November. I think I have all the updates (titles and volunteers) included, but let me know if I've missed anything. 

Completed stories (as of 11/1/06) 
Blade v3 #1 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #2 (JLH) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daredevil v2 #88 (Kevin) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Franklin Richards: Son of a Genius Super Summer Spectacular 
Incredible Hulk v3 #96-99 (Kevin) 
Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1-6 (Russ) 
Reading to the Rescue #4 
Runaways v2 #19-21 (JD) 
Sentinel v2 #1-5 (JD) 
Stan Lee Meets Dr. Doom (Sean K.) 
Stan Lee Meets Silver Surfer (Sean K.) 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 
Underworld #1-5 (Aaron) 

Future stuff 
Agents of Atlas #1-6 (Eric) 
Annihilation #1-6 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #3 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #4 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #5 (JLH) 
Claws #1-3 (Paul O.) 
Daredevil v2 #89-93 
Daredevil: Father #6 (Kevin) 
Doctor Strange: The Oath #1-5 (Frederic) 
Eternals v2 #1-7 (Eric) 
Ghost Rider v4 #1-5 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider v4 #6-7 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider Finale (JLH) 
Hellstorm: Son of Satan #1-5 (Frederic) 
Immortal Iron Fist #1-? 
Incredible Hulk v3 #100-103 
Incredible Hulk v3 #104-105 
Irredeemable Ant-Man #1-? 
Marvel Holiday Special 2006 (Sean K.) 
Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns Featuring the Black Rider (Eric) 
Moon Knight v? #1-6 (Joe) 
Moon Knight v? #7-? 
Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #1-12 (Chris) 
Punisher v7 #37-42 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher v7 #43-49 
Punisher War Journal v2 #1-3 (JLH) 
Punisher: X-Mas Special (Col_Fury) 
Runaways v2 #22-24 
Union Jack v2 #1-4 (Frederic) 
White Tiger #1-6 (Kevin) 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
Wolverine: Origins #6-10 (Col_Fury) 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.) 

Any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. As always, thanks to all who post on this forum!
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 11 Dec 2006 06:54 am; edited 10 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Nov 2006 08:29 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Well, since it's got Fin Fang Four and a Thing/Annihilus story, I'll probably be picking up the Holiday Special. Go ahead and put me down for that one, Paul.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Nov 2006 10:16 am    
By Somebody

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Well, since [the Holiday Special]'s got ...a Thing/Annihilus story 
<<<

Going completely off the subject, one has to wonder why they thought this was a good idea to have Annihilus in what amounts to a throwaway Xmas story while Annihilation is going to great lengths to push Annihilius as a Really Big Bad. Not a chronology issue - it'll be before, after or whatever as it is, but a "comic readers consciousness" thing to have him in such a story published at the same time... 

BTW, to have a semblance of ontopicness, Franklin #4 is "Happy Franksgiving". Bad pun alert 

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Nov 2006 12:45 pm    
By Frederic Krier

I did pick up Stan Lee meets Spider-Man, so I can do that one (even though I doubt that it's actually canon).

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Nov 2006 09:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just updated the list. Thanks to Sean and Frederic for their work and to Somebody for the correction!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2006 07:15 pm    
By AaronRStanley

I can do Underworld, though from what I've read it seems to be non-canon.
_________________
Expand your mind

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2006 07:50 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Spider-Man Family Featuring Spider-Clan [canonical?] 
<<<

Doesn't look like it - the Spider-Clan lead is Mangaverse rather than MU, and the rest of the contents seem to be wholly composed of reprints (SM2099 #3, ASM252 and 'from Marvel Shadows & Light #2 "The Date".', whenever and whatever "Marvel Shadows & Light" was. 

And in a bit of housekeeping, Eternals is now seven issues rather than six; and the rest of Planet Hulk breaks down as: #100-103 (PH:Allegiance) and #104-105 (PH:Armaggedon).

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2006 09:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks to Aaron for volunteering and to somebody for clarifications. The call list is updated.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2006 04:31 am    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Blade v? #1-? (JLH) 
<<<

Well, let's look at the previous books. 

-His first series was titled "Blade: The Vampire Hunter". 94-95, 10 issues. 
-He next had a one-shot titled "Blade: Crescent City Blues", 1998. 
-Next in 98 was a prestige format one-shot called "Blade: Sins of the Father", which I believe was out of continuity (was said to be a movie tie-in, IIRC). 
-His first series to just be "Blade" was also in 98, a mini that was to run for 6 issues but was canned mid-run and ended with #3. 
-In late 1999 through 2000, intended to be a monthly but canceled at #6, was "Blade: Vampire Hunter". This is the one the FAQ talks about being out of continuity, it continued with the B:SotF 1-shot's movie tie-in style. 
-His MAX title was just "Blade". 6 issues, 2002. This would be Blade v 2. Might've been out of continuity, but you never know when it comes to MAX. 
-Current run that just started. Also "Blade". Makes it vol 3 from my count. 

As for the issues, there doesn't seem to be an arc going on. But issue 4 is a Christmas seemingly stand-alone with a back-up concerning the past, and issue 5 is a CW x-over stand-alone involving Wolverine. 


Quote: 
>>>
Ghost Rider Finale 
<<<

I thought I signed up for that on the last request thread? Ah well, consider this me saying it again for the first time!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2006 08:46 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JLH. I'll sign you up for Finale. And if each issue of the new Blade is a stand-alone, I'll note it that way. 

Do other folks have opinions about how to code the various Blade series?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2006 09:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I can take CLAWS, WISDOM and X-23 if you want. CLAWS could go pretty much anywhere. WISDOM #1 has Pete Wisdom as an agent of MI-13 and makes no reference to anything in NEW EXCALIBUR, so it's probably meant to take place before he joined the team - and by extension, back before M-Day.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2006 09:28 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
-His MAX title was just "Blade". 6 issues, 2002. This would be Blade v 2. Might've been out of continuity, but you never know when it comes to MAX. 
-Current run that just started. Also "Blade". Makes it vol 3 from my count. 
<<<


Well waitaminute...what about the Blade 4 issue miniseries from 2004/2005 which featured the return of Dracula? Written by Bruce Jones, I believe? Or am I misremembering things?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2006 09:44 am    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Well waitaminute...what about the Blade 4 issue miniseries from 2004/2005 which featured the return of Dracula? Written by Bruce Jones, I believe? Or am I misremembering things? 
<<<

Tomb of Dracula v4

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Dec 2006 10:09 pm  
By Somebody

Flicking back through old threads to check for something, this came up: 
AaronRStanley wrote: 
>>>
I can do Underworld, though from what I've read it seems to be non-canon. 
<<<

It's canon - it's getting a sequel in Civil War: War Crimes (it's by the same creative team, and the Underworld lead character is turning up in it).

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 03:52 pm    Post subject: Marvel Holiday Special
By SKleefeld
Director

AIM Lang Syne 
This story is actually spread out over the course of the issue. Page one of the story is page one of the book, but page two of the story is page 14 of the book... I'm going to treat this as one story (since it's written as such) and my page numbers will reflect the story's numbering, not the issue's. 

p. 1 -- Peggy Park and her date (Joel) are at an/the AIM New Year's Eve party. A clock denotes that it's 10:00 exactly. Peggy thanks Joel for attending and he's roughed up a bit by a Super Adaptoid. Appearances by: Peggy Park, Joel, Super Adaptoid, Absorbing Man, Titania. 

p. 2 -- The clock notes that it's 11:00 exactly. MODOK ("Or a MODOK clone") is putting the moves on some woman, and Arnim Zola makes a really bad joke. An generic AIM guy notes that they're on green alert tonight. Appearances by: MODOK, Arnim Zola, Peggy Park, Joel 

p. 3 -- The clock notes that it's 11:59 exactly. Just as Peggy and Joel are about to kiss, the Hulk bashes into the place with a classic "Hulk smash puny humans!" Appearances by: Peggy Park, Joel, Hulk, Batroc (passed out) 

p. 4 -- The clock reads 12:00 but there is some visable damage to it. It's possible it is malfunctioning, but it's clearly at least sometime realtively shortly after page 3. The Hulk is still rampaging around, throwing AIM agents. Joel notices some still hanging mistletoe and wishes Peggy a happy new year with a kiss. Appearances by: Peggy Park, Joel, Hulk 

How Fin Fang Foom Saved Christmas 
The whole story is cited as occurring on Christmas Eve. It's night, but several stores are still open. The whole story, with the exception of a single one-panel flashback, occurs over the course of maybe a half-hour. Fin Fang Foom and Wong are the only named characters shown in the story. 

p. 1-2 -- Wong is walking home with a package, noting (evidently without sarcasm) the "goodwill" of New Yorkers at Christmastime. He's pushed into a heavily clothed individual who turns out to be Fin Fang Foom. (He's at the six-foot height we saw him at during Fin Fang Four.) Wong apologizes and is awe of the the legendary creature. Page two panel two is a flashback to Wong reading an ancient scroll as a boy* telling of Foom's victories over Kee Kaa Kon, Lo Lin Laam, and Tik Taak Toe. 
* The text calls him a boy, but he looks exactly the same as the current story. This would then likely occur only shortly before he left for America to work for Doc Strange. 

p. 3-5 panel 1 -- The Hordes of Hydra activate a giant, robotic Santa that turns green and goes on a rampage in Times Square. The Hydra agents, disguised as elves, pull out their blasters and starting shooting. 

p. 5 panel 2 -p. 6 -- Wong sees the chaos and begs to fight alongside Foom. Foom complains about how humans "smell like baboons" and "breed like randy locusts" so he's not going to lift a finger. Wong decides to head into action himself and leaps into the Hordes of Hydra. He fights off several agents, but is eventually knocked down and brought before the leader, who promises his imminent death. 

p. 7-8 -- Foom sees this and decides to help. He takes out the agents holding Wong and the giant Santa-bot, before getting surrounded by Hydra agents. (Side Note: The best line of the whole issue is here. Foom takes out the Santa-bot and the crowd cheers "Hooray!" followed by a small child yelling "Yay, Santa's dead!") 

p. 9 -- Turns out that half of the Hydra agents who've surrounded Foom and Wong are from the Provisional Hydra Horde of South Brooklyn, a counter Hydra branch. The two start arguing about who's going to destroy New York and Foom agitates the situation by yelling "Death to the imposters!" while he and Wong duck for cover. 

p. 10 -- "The battle was fierce but brief." SHIELD has arrived to clean things up, and Foom explains that he didn't think Wong ought to fight alone. Wong invites Foom home for dinner, but Foom walks off sneezing fire and muttering about how he just wants a warm bath and some whiskey. 

A Is for Annihilus 
Uatu narrates a story about Annihilus and the Thing. 

p. 1 -- Uatu shows us Annihilus (A). 

p. 2-3 -- Ben is moping around the Baxter Bldg (B) and kicks HERBIE. It's snowing outside and the text notes that he's in a depressed mood (D) because everyone else is out. There's a reference to Christmas and Chanukah (C), but doesn't cite that it's actually during either of those holidays. The TV is showing an old Sgt. Bilko rerun. 

p. 4 -- Ben wanders into a lab and touches a polarized energy lattice (E) with his finger (F). The ground (G) shorts out (H for Havoc), sending Ben careening into an insect-o-cutor (I) and allowing Anni to step through from the Negative Zone. (J for Juxtaposition) 

p. 5 -- Uatu holds a koala (K) and watches as Anni lunges (L) at Ben trying to murder (M) him. (N for Negative Zone) 

p. 6 -- (O for opening, P for Portal) Uatu standing there with a quetzal (Q) and a manta ray (R), watching the fray. Anni wallops Ben and (S for slim chance) Ben picks up a "turbulence gun." (T) 

p. 7 -- The gun doesn't do much good and Anni breaks it. (U for undaunted, V for vampire) He then notices the TV (W for "Wait!") and says that he caught part of the episode in the NZ, but never learned how it ends. Ben offers to let him watch if he surrenders. 

p. 8 -- Reed and Sue return home with Christmas presents (X for x-ray machine, Y for yak-butter massage oil) to find Anni and Ben asleep (Z for zzzzzzzz) in front of the TV with a half-eaten pizza, some popcorn and soda. (Curious Side Note: Sue is wearing a version of the FF uniform I've never seen before, with thigh-high boots, evening-gown length gloves and no belt. More curious is that Reed is wearing his current/classic uniform.) 


Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Santa Claus 
Text entry summarizing Santa's history, powers, etc. 

A Note From Ralph 
Editor Ralph Macchio provides a quick text intro to several pages of old holiday special covers.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 09:31 pm    
By Col_Fury

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
MODOK ("Or a MODOK clone") is putting the moves on some woman, and Arnim Zola makes a really bad joke.  
<<<

I must own this!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 09:56 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Sean. Inherent silliness aside, is there any reason not to consider these tales canonical? I suppose the first story can go on one of a number of New Year's Eves in Hulk's fairly early chronology. I'm inclined to place the third story very shortly after the first story in M/HOL'05 1. And I'm inclined to place the second story around the same point in time. Both Fin Fang Foom and Annihilus probably appear in these stories after FIN FANG FOUR.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 07:28 am 
By SKleefeld
Director
 
Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Thanks, Sean. Inherent silliness aside, is there any reason not to consider these tales canonical?  
<<<

I think the biggest arguement you could possibly make that this isn't canonical is that Annihilus likes to watch Sgt. Bilko. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I suppose the first story can go on one of a number of New Year's Eves in Hulk's fairly early chronology.  
<<<

Well, it's got to at least go after Secret Wars since we have an appearance of Titania. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm inclined to place the third story very shortly after the first story in M/HOL'05 1. And I'm inclined to place the second story around the same point in time. Both Fin Fang Foom and Annihilus probably appear in these stories after FIN FANG FOUR. 
<<<

I don't see any problems with that offhand. 


			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 07:34 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I must own this! 
<<<

Pretty funny bit actually. MODOK tries to pick her up by saying that his friends call him MODOF. 

No, wait! Mental organism designed only for FUN! 


			*	*	*
Posted: 08 Dec 2006 08:26 am    
By Somebody

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I suppose the first story can go on one of a number of New Year's Eves in Hulk's fairly early chronology.  
<<<

Well, it's got to at least go after Secret Wars since we have an appearance of Titania. 
<<<

If that's the case, and it's the Savage ("Hulk Smash") Hulk, you're not only not "early", you're up into the Paul Jenkins run or thereabouts.

			*	*	*


Posted: 08 Dec 2006 08:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody said: 
>>>
If that's the case, and it's the Savage ("Hulk Smash") Hulk, you're not only not "early", you're up into the Paul Jenkins run or thereabouts. 
<<<

Does anyone want to hazard a more specific guess? A placement that might make sense for savage Hulk, Absorbing Man, and Titania? 


Sean K. wrote: 
>>>
I think the biggest arguement you could possibly make that this isn't canonical is that Annihilus likes to watch Sgt. Bilko.  
<<<

Nothing inherently non-canonical about that. I think it adds a new dimension to our knowledge of Anni. As we've established elsewhere, silliness itself is not an automatic ticket to non-canonicity.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 08:57 am    Post subject: Stan Lee Meets the Silver Surfer
By SKleefeld
Director

Stan Lee Meets the Silver Surfer 
p. 1 -- Stan's in his office typing away. He's suddenly teleported away in a beam of greenish light. 

p. 2-3 -- Stan lands aboard Taa II, standing atop a small platform near Galactus' shoulder. G notes that Stan was the first to write about him and the Surfer, and he has a request of Stan regarding the Surfer. Rather than explain, though, G beams Stan away... 

p. 4-9 panel 1 -- Stan shows up on Surfer's board just behind Norrin. They're flying through space, passing various asteroids, planets, etc. Stan starts to make conversation, but the Surfer repeatedly responds in a sort of pseudo-intellectual/philosophical manner. "How can we tell what is truly real? In a limitless universe there are limitless realities. Reality can be illusion. Perhaps illusion itself is the only reality." They run across a collection of ships, who attack unprovoked. Surfer responds in kind, spouting his hyperbolic nonsense all the while. 

p. 9 panel 2 - p. 10 panel 1 -- G teleports Stan back to Taa II and asks if he was able to get Surfer to "stop him from boring you to death with his eternal preaching?" 

p. 10 panel 2 -- Stan's teleported back home as he responds in the same kind preachy tone that Surfer was using. 

p. 10 panel 3 -- Aboard Taa II, G starts ranting about how infectuous the Surfer is. "We're doomed! It's contagious! No place is safe! He's infecting the universe!" 

The Magician 
This whole story occurs over the course of a few minutes at Parsonage Farm in Kent, England, 1971. I'm not going to do a page breakdown because I think it ultimately won't be necessary. 

A young Paul Jenkins is drawing his own comic book ("Spidey vs. Dudley Moore") in his backyard. He's not very happy with it, but Stan Lee comes up and they start chatting about creating good stories and using your imagination. They wander back to the flying bathtub and Stan says that he'll have to get back to the Bullpen, but they'll meet again when Paul gets to America. He flies off, letting Paul get back to making comics. 

Now, as the conversation progresses, more and more Marvel characters are seen running/flying by in the background: Thor, Sub-Mariner, Hulk, Spidye, Doc Ock, Sandman, Electro, Surfer, Galactus, Punisher (the original), the FF, and Giant-Man. I don't think these are intended to be the "real" characters showing up, but rather a visual representation of the conversation's level of interest/excitment. Earlier in the story, Paul explains his idea about "Alfred an' the Egg Giants" and we see a Jack-n-the-Beanstalk type thing going on in the background. And when Stan suggests trying to create characters in the Marvel style, Sentry suddenly pops into view. When Paul verbally wonders why he's so far away, Stan notes, "He's an idea whose time hasn't come. You just didn't think of him yet." Finally, when Paul sits back down, we see him surrounded by the FF, Spider-Man, Giant-Man, Wasp, Surfer, Thor, Iron Man and Captain America. 

I would suggest that, if we decide that this is ultimately canon, that the only appearances are by Paul Jenkins and Stan Lee. Everyone else we see are just visualizations of Paul and Stan's thoughts. Like an extended version of the old floating heads bit. 

Stan Lee Meets His Doom 
p. 1 panels 1-11 -- Trapster's putting up wallpaper when his phone rings. It's Stilt-Man telling him that Stan Lee is having a "big brouhaha where he gets to meet a bunch of idiots he wrote comics for!" He goes on to rant that why should the heroes have all the fun, and that they should get a bunch of villains together to crash the place. 

p. 1 panel 12 -- Doc Ock sitting at home eating Chunky Monkey. 

p. 2 panels 1-6 -- "Later that night" a group of villains jump out of the bushes to "get" Stan. Stan says that it's about time they showed up because the party was starting to die down. "Come on, fellas! Do you think that you would have come if I invited you?" Apperances by: Stan Lee, Wolverine, Rhino, Stilt-Man, Trapster, Electro, Batroc, Ringmaster, Shocker, Wizard, King Cobra, Forbush Man, Melter, Vulture, Eel, Toad, Eel, Radioactive Man, Matador, and Tim Boom Baa. 

p. 2 panels 7-8 -- The party is in full swing with Stan trying to shake hands with Unus. Appearances by: Stan Lee, Wolverine, Unus, Ringmaster, Batroc, Blob, Klaw, King Cobra, Melter, Scorpion, Shocker, Dragon Man, Egghead, Mad Thinker's Awesome Android, Fixer, Gladiator, Red Ghost and the Super Apes, and Leap-Frog. 

p. 2 panel 9 -- Doc Ock asleep in front of the TV, still blaring Prince of Bel Aire. 

The Surfer and the Spider! 
Reprint of Silver Surfer #14. 


Okay, now that all of these are out, I don't know that we can rule them as non-canonical. All of the Stan-written stories are off-beat, but don't actually contradict anything that I know about. And the second stories are actually fairly plausible candidates as well -- with the one possible exception being the line of dead people outside Stan's home in Thing book. The third set of stories look generally to be outside of continuity, hands-down. 

So the question for all of these is: is there any reason the first and second stories CAN'T be in continuity?

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 01:03 pm    
By Enda80

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Stan Lee Meets the Silver Surfer 
p. 1 -- Stan's in his office typing away. He's suddenly teleported away in a beam of greenish light. 

p. 2-3 -- Stan lands aboard Taa II, standing atop a small platform near Galactus' shoulder. G notes that Stan was the first to write about him and the Surfer, and he has a request of Stan regarding the Surfer. Rather than explain, though, G beams Stan away... 

p? 
<<<

Hmmm....so other planets in the Earth-616 universe do not have fiction? 
Check out SS#-1 for Stan Lee's diagetical first meeting with the Silver Surfer.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 08:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So the question for all of these is: is there any reason the first and second stories CAN'T be in continuity? 
<<<

There's the $64,000 question. Are we considering these story by story, issue by issue, or the entire series? If one story in the entire series cannot be canonical, does it throw all other stories in this series (or at least in that single issue) into the same alternate reality? 

I propose posting evidence of non-canonicity for any story in the Stan Lee series in this thread, even re-treads of old comments so we have 'em in one spot. Then we'll take a stab at applying some kind of litmus test to each piece of evidence. 

Thanks for tackling the analyses, Sean!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 09:59 pm    Post subject: December call for analyses
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, guys, here's the latest. 

Completed stories (as of 12/13/06) 
Blade v3 #1-4 (JLH) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Franklin Richards: Son of a Genius Super Summer Spectacular 
Ghost Rider v4 #1-5 (JLH) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #96-99 (Kevin) 
Moon Knight v? #1-6 (Joe) 
Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1-6 (Russ) 
Punisher: X-Mas Special (Col_Fury) 
Reading to the Rescue #4 
Runaways v2 #19-21 (JD) 
Sentinel v2 #1-5 (JD) 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 
Underworld #1-5 (Aaron) 

Future stuff 
Agents of Atlas #1-6 (Eric) 
Annihilation #1-6 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus #1-2 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #5 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #6 (JLH) 
Daredevil v2 #89-93 (Kevin) 
Daredevil v2 #94 (Kevin) 
Doctor Strange: The Oath #1-5 (Frederic) 
Eternals v2 #1-7 (Eric) 
Ghost Rider v4 #6-7 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider v4 #8-12 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider Finale (JLH) 
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH) 
Hellstorm: Son of Satan #1-5 (Frederic) 
Immortal Iron Fist #1-? 
Incredible Hulk v3 #100-103 (Kevin) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #104-105 (Kevin) 
Irredeemable Ant-Man #1-? 
Legion of Monsters: Werewolf By Night #1 
Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns Featuring the Black Rider (Eric) 
Moon Knight v? #7-9 
Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #1-12 (Chris) 
Punisher v7 #37-42 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher v7 #43-49 
Punisher Presents: Barracuda 
Runaways v2 #22-24 (JD) 
Spider-Man Family #1 
Thunderbolts Presents: Zemo  Born Better #1-4 (Sean K.) 
Union Jack v2 #1-4 (Frederic) 
White Tiger #1-6 (Kevin) 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
Wolverine v3 #150-? 
Wolverine: Origins #6-10 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #11-? 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.) 

All volunteers are greatly appreciated! Let me know if you'd like to sign up or if I goofed on anything.
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 26 Dec 2006 05:52 pm; edited 11 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 10:08 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Daredevil v2 #89-93 
Daredevil v2 #94 
Incredible Hulk v3 #100-103 
Incredible Hulk v3 #104-105  
<<<

I'll take these. My reviews for Daredevil: Father #6 and Daredevil v2 #88 are coming soon. The Holiday's will help me find extra time, (or so I hope).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Dec 2006 11:27 pm    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus  Terrax/Stardust #1-? 
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears 
<<<

I could do these. 

As for the stuff I got owed to ya, expect the analysis within the next week!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Dec 2006 05:41 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus  Terrax/Stardust #1-? 
<<<

The solicit title is just Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus  Terrax/Stardust, but it says "Book 1 (of 2)" at the end of the solicit blurb. 

"Book 2" is Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus  Silver Surfer/Firelord though, with a different title thusly, so work out for yourself if that nets them a #1 & #2 though 

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2006 06:57 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Now that I finally got my copy of Marvel Previews #40, I've updated the list, adding Blade v4 #6 and Ghost Rider v4 #8-12. JLH, I assume you'd like to tackle these? Also, I can take you off the hook for Punisher War Journal v2 #1-3 (and #4); I decided to pick these up after all.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2006 11:15 am   
By SKleefeld
Director

I can take that Thunderbolts mini if no one else wants it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2006 12:14 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Claws #1-3 (Paul O.) 
<<<

Concluded some time ago. 


Quote: 
>>>
Moon Knight v? #7-? 
<<<

Haven't they sollicited #7-9 as a Casualty of War tie-in ? 


Quote: 
>>>
Runaways v2 #22-24 
<<<

I'm continuing this series.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2006 10:30 pm    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I've updated the list, adding Blade v4 #6 and Ghost Rider v4 #8-12. JLH, I assume you'd like to tackle these? 
<<<

Yes, that would be good, thanks. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, I can take you off the hook for Punisher War Journal v2 #1-3 (and #4); I decided to pick these up after all. 
<<<

No problem there. The way this book keeps getting kicked back to fit CW's erratic run, it'll be NEXT Christmas before it ends its first arc!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Dec 2006 09:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've decided to take a pass on Wolverine v3 from here on out, so starting with this week's Christmas issue (#49), it would be great to get a volunteer to do some analyses. I updated the call and brought the status of things forward a week. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Dec 2006 05:48 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'll do issue #49, (though I'll pass on signing up for Issues 50 onwards). I should have analysis for #49 up within the next day or so. The extra time during the Holidays should give me a chance to catch up.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 25 Dec 2006 01:55 am    Post subject: Gambit vol. 1 #1-4
By SeanCurtin

GAMBIT #1 (Dec 93) 
"Tithing" 

One night in New Orleans, a masked assassin kills two Thieves' Guild members who were hiding from the Tithe Collector. Meanwhile (?), during a "late night training session", Gambit and Rogue work out in the Danger Room while Storm and Wolverine watch; all four comment on Rogue and Gambit's pseudo-relationship. The session ends when Gambit inexplicably senses an intruder: his estranged brother, Henri Lebeau, who has come to warn him of warfare between the Thieves' and Assassins' Guilds. Henri is fatally shot by a pair of unseen Assassins; Gambit stalks the killers into Salem Center. Meanwhile, Gambit's father, Jean-Luc, gathers the High Council of the Thieves' Guild to prepare for "the Tithing", while in Paris, Candra tells Gideon that she craves excitement. 

Gambit defeats a gang of assassins, but finds the masked assassin waiting for him. The masked figure is revealed to be Julien Boudreaux, Bella Donna's brother, who Remy killed in a duel shortly after his wedding. The assassins teleport home, but not before revealing that Bella Donna - Gambit's wife - is alive. Gambit tells Wolverine, Storm and the Professor that he is going to New Orleans alone to resolve things, but Rogue insists on accompanying him. 

Characters appearing: 
Tithe Collector (first appearance) 
Julien Boudreaux 
Gambit 
Rogue 
Wolverine 
Storm 
Henri Lebeau (first appearance; dies) 
Jean-Luc Leabeau (first appearance) 
Candra (first appearance) 
Gideon 
Professor X 

GAMBIT #2 (Jan 94) 
"Honor Amongst Thieves" 

Gambit infiltrates the Boudreaux residence, and finds Bella Donna comatose in her bed. He is attacked by the Assassins, including her father, Marius, who challenges Gambit to a duel. Gambit threatens to kill Marius if he doesn't call of his assassins, but Marius orders them to kill Gambit. Rogue enters the fight, and the pair defeat the assassins and take Bella Donna. Before they leave, Marius insists that Gambit give Bella Donna a taste of the Thieves' elixir of life. Afterwards, Julien enters, kills the assassins, and wounds his father. 

Rogue and Gambit interrupt the Thieves' Tithing ceremony, in which they give something(?) to Candra's servant, the Tithe Collector, in exchange for the elixir. The Tithe Collector teleports away, and after an argument, Jean-Luc tells Gambit that he needs all three vials of the elixir for it to be effective. Meanwhile, Julien and his men ambush the Tithe Collector and steal one of the vials before the Collector can teleoprt to Candra's home in Paris. Gambit leaves Bella Donna with Rogue in his house, then tells Marius that he can use the elixir to save Bella Donna. Meanwhile, in Paris, Gideon leaves Candra and the wounded Tithe Collector to resolve their business. 

Characters appearing: 
Gambit 
Bella Donna Boudreaux 
Marius Boudreaux (first appearance) 
Julien Boureaux 
Jean-Luc Lebeau 
Tithe Collector 
Candra 
Gideon 

GAMBIT #3 (Feb 94) 
"The Benefactress" 

In a club in Paris, Gambit asks around for Candra. He is apprehended by some of her thugs, and although he defeats them, the Tithe Collector catches him unawares and knocks him out with some kind of energy blast. Meanwhile, the healer Tante Mattie stops in to check on Bella Donna, and after she leaves, Rogue is tempted to touch Bella Donna and absorb her memories of being with Gambit. Rogue forces herself away, but Bella Donna reaches out and touches her uncovered hand reflexively, sharing her memories of being "a young girl in love" (very late teens, to go by the art). 

Back in Paris, Gambit (now awake) is attacked by the Tithe Collector, who seeks revenge for the ambush "last night", but Candra arrives and ends the fight. Candra and Gambit reminisce, kiss, and fight. She shows him the third vial of the elixir that he needs, tells Gambit that she is sick of the old Guilds, and offers Gambit the elixir and the leadership of her future organization if he kills her prisoner: Jean-Luc Lebeau. Gambit refuses, of course, but before anyone can react, Julien enters with his own assassins. In the three-way melee, Jean-Luc frees himself and saves Gambit by taking a blow intended for his son. Candra ends the fight by telekinetically knocking Julien out the window, and Gambit leaves with his unconscoius father, but not without stealing both a kiss and (as Candra later learns) the vial with the elixir. 

Characters appearing: 
Gambit 
Tithe Collector 
Tante Mattie (first appearance) 
Bella Donna 
Rogue 
Candra 
Julien Boudreaux 
Jean-Luc Lebeau 

In flashback, when Belle touches Rogue: 
Gambit & Bella Donna (both as teenagers/young adults, during their courtship) 

GAMBIT #4 (Mar 94) 
"Thief of Time" 

In New Orleans' "Church of Lost Thieves", Julien waits for his man in the Thieves' Guild, Pierre, to arrive with the Thieves' vial of the elixir. Gambit arrives, revealing that he discovered and stopped Pierre, and takes the third vial from Julien's hand. Julien removes his mask, revealing the ravages that the elixir had wrought on his body. Gambit takes him to Jean-Luc, who reveals that he always knew of the elixir's physical and mental side effects. As Gambit agonizes over whether he should give the elixir to Bella Donna, the Tithe Collector arrives with both Guilds to kill Gambit and his allies. 

Gambit flees to where Bella Donna and Rogue are hiding. Bella Donna is having convulsions, and Tante Mattie tries to get Rogue to tell her what happened to Bella Donna, but Rogue is lost in her new memories. Gambit defeats the Guild members lying in wait outside, but the Tithe Collector knocks Mattie out and begins pouring energy into the bodies of both Rogue and Bella Donna. Gambit grabs the Collector's coat and charges it up; when the Collector tries to remove his coat, Gambit kicks him out the window just before it explodes. Gambit tries to mix the vials of the elixir while Rogue tells him what had happened, but Julien leaps through the window and shatters the mixed vial. Gambit defeats Julien and turns his back on him; when Julien rises to attack again, he shot and apparently killed by Marius. Candra arrives, and when the gathering thieves and assassins refuse to follow her any longer, she departs. The guild members disperse, and Jean-Luc forbids Gambit from returning. 

Gambit takes the blanket that the vial of the elixir had shattered over, and wrings out what he can into Bella Donna's mouth. She wakes up, but has no knowledge of who she is or who Gambit is. He leaves her with her father. Aftewards, Gambit tries to kiss Rogue by way of thanking her, but she flees, and he wanders off into the city. 

Characters appearing: 
Gambit 
Julien Boudreaux 
Jean-Luc Lebeau 
Tithe Collector 
Rogue 
Tante Mattie 
Bella Donna 
Marius Boudreaux 
Candra 


In terms of the calendar, GAM 1 p1-2 (in which Julien kills the thieves who are hiding from the Tithe Collector) take place at night, possibly the same one "late night" as the rest of the issue. GAM 2 occurs at night, and probably occurs over one night; pages 13-onward definitely take place one day after GAM 1 p3-onward, as a character in #1 refers to the tithing ceremony in #2 p13 as occurring "tomorrow". GAM 3 seems to take place during nighttime in Paris and daytime in New Orleans. GAM 4 occurs over one night in New Orleans. Given the life-or-death circumstances, GAM 3 & 4 probably occur the day after GAM 2, and GAM 2 probably occurs during one day. 

So, the calendar for the series would probably look like this: 
Day 1 (Night): GAM 1 p1-2 (Tithe Collector sighted by some thieves who are then killed by Julien Boudreaux) 
Day 2 (Night): GAM 1 p3-22 (X-Men in Danger Room, Henri killed, Gambit vs Julien) 
Day 3 (Night): GAM 2 (Gambit finds Bella Donna, interrupts Tithing) 
Day 4 (Midday in New Orleans/Evening in Paris): GAM 3 (Gambit finds Candra, Rogue touched by Bella Donna) 
Day 4 (Night in New Orleans): GAM 4 (Julien killed, Guilds reject Candra, Bella Donna awakens) 


Updated chronologies: 

BOUDREAUX, BELLA DONNA 
GAM3 1-FB (Gambit meets Bella Donna; both are children) 
**GAM 3-FB (Gambit and Bella Donna courting) 
GAM3 1-FB (Gambit and Bella Donna's wedding) 
{X 8-FB} (after the wedding, they kiss) 
... 
GR3 27 
**GAM 2 
**GAM 3 
**GAM 4 
X 39 

**BOUDREAUX, JULIEN 
X 8-FB ("killed" in a duel with Gambit) 
GAM 1 
GAM 2 
GAM 3 
GAM 4 

BOUDREAUX, MARIUS 
GAM3 22-FB 
**{GAM 1} 
**GAM 2 
**GAM 3 
**GAM 4 

CANDRA 
... 
*GAM3 6-FB (is listed as a flashback in Gambit's chronology, but is not listed as such here) 
{GAM 1} 
GAM 2 
GAM 3 
GAM 4 
*XU 7 (moved; occurs after GAM 1-4) 
R 1 

GAMBIT/REMY LEBEAU 
GAM3 23-FB 
**GAM 3-FB 
X 33-FB 
... 
UX 304 
**GAM 1 
**GAM 2 
**GAM 3 
**GAM 4 
X 25 

GIDEON 
XFOR 79-FB-BTS 
**GAM 1 
**GAM 2 
XFOR 36 

LEBEAU, HENRI 
X 33-FB 
*{GAM 1} (not listed as his first appearance) 

LEBEAU, JEAN-LUC 
GAM3 1-FB 
**{GAM 1} 
**GAM 2 
**GAM 3 
**GAM 4 
GAM3 1 

PROFESSOR X 
UX 304 
**GAM 1 
UX 305 

ROGUE 
UX 304 
**GAM 1 
**GAM 2 
**GAM 3 
**GAM 4 
UX 305 

STORM/ORORO MUNROE 
UX 304 
**GAM 1 
UX 305 

TANTE MATTIE/MATTIE BAPTISTE 
GAM3 12-FB 
**{GAM 3} 
**GAM 4 
R 1 
R 2 
R 3 
R 4 
*GAM2 2 (moved; occurs after R 1-4) 

TITHE COLLECTOR/ 
GAM3 12 
**{GAM 1} 
**GAM 2 
**GAM 3 
**GAM 4 
GAM3 9 

WOLVERINE 
UX 304 
**GAM 1 
M/CP 150 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 01:08 am    Post subject: Spider-Man, Punisher, Sabretooth: Designer Genes
By JLH

SPIDER-MAN, PUNISHER, SABRETOOTH: DESIGNER GENES [1993] 
Writer: Terry Kavanagh 
Penciler: Scott McDaniel 
Inker: Keith Williams 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE 
SABRETOOTH/VICTOR CREED (also in FB) 
MICROCHIP/LINUS LIEBERMAN 
SILVER FOX II (FB only) 
WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT (FB only) 


Other characters: 
Pixie (young homeless girl and pal of the Punisher) 
The Scorchers (Canadian arsonist squad) 
Several homeless people 
Mr Lynch (crooked ESU security guard) 
Chambers, Brandon (Roxxon exec) 
Chambers, Dr Phillip (former Department K employee. Possibly also in FB. Dies) 
Chambers, Mitchell (wolf-like man-beast product of gene splicing) 
Mr Greycrest (voice only, prospective buyer of the serum) 



Summary: Working after hours at Empire State Universe, Spider-Man discovers the slaughter of science lab animals, and follows the bloody footprints left by the being who tore them to shreds. This leads him to the security guard, named Lynch. Meanwhile, in Alphabet City, the Punisher goes briefly undercover with his acquaintance Pixie in the group of homeless people she lives with. He uses the disguise to be there when a nearby greedy landlord sends a group of special arsonists to wipe out the "undesirable locals". Despite taking care of the Scorchers, two of the homeless end up viciously butchered, and Frank follows the trail of blood into a manhole. Sabretooth, who'd been at the ESU scene earlier in the shadows, follows after the Punisher. Elsewhere, Spidey tracks down Lynch, and through some interrogating, discovers he was paid to let in and clean up after whatever inhuman creature was in the science lab by an old man near the Bronx Zoo. The guys behind the creature, two brothers, one a scientist who created it and one a corporate businessman who funded it, are aware of Spider-Man's involvement and adjust their plans accordingly. Brandon, it seems, works for Roxxon. So, Punisher and Spidey end up reaching the secret lab near the Bronx Zoo at the same time, discovering Sabretooth, who has beaten them to it. Though the experiments are cleared out already, Victor sniffs up enough to remind him of his own time spent as a lab rat. Frank & Peter, though, think him to be the pet & bum killer, and a fight ensues. Sabretooth tries to get out of the building, wanting to give the scientist responsible a taste of his own medicine, and despite getting shot by Punisher, he escapes. They follow him to the Bronx Zoo, the pair bickering all the while about whether or not it's right to kill Sabretooth. They end up trapped in the lion den, where Vic takes refuge, so the pair flee from the animals. There, they start actively fighting one another, until Sabretooth drops in and they turn back on him. He denies killing the lab animals or the homeless people, and explains he's after a scientist who once worked on him in Canada, now working for Roxxon. The three then split up and follow this lead, ending up at one of the Roxxon Holdings skyscrapers soon. There, Brandon and Phillip are aruging (over Kroff Dinner, I bet) about the success of Phillip's serum, which he hasn't been able to recreate, despite Brandon needing it to build their own criminal empire. Overhearing this, Spidey & Punisher realize Sabretooth wasn't lying, storm the building, team up against high-tech security guard, and follow after Brandon to the showroom for the serum, "Designer Genes, inc". There, Brandon explains (under Frank's gun, of course) how he worked his way to an executive position and used the money and power to get his brother Phillip over from Canada's Department K and combine that company's knowledge with Roxxon's to finally perfect gene splicing. But the Chambers brothers chose to farm out their serum to top buyers, and the creature they created and have control over, a rat-bear-coyote-wolf man, was the cause of the deaths that drew Spidey & Frank to them (searching for new organs to fully be completed). Phillip locks Brandon, Punisher, and Spider-Man in the showroom, and unleashes the creature, whom Brandon is stunned to learn is their little brother, Mitchell, saved from cancer by becoming the first successful test subject! While Spidey fights Mitchell, Punisher makes a break to take on Phillip, and runs into some guard robots. Sabretooth finally kills Phillip, stopping him from blowing up the building, and destroys the Designer Genes files before he flees. Spidey tries to stop Punisher when the SWAT team arrives, but he escapes in a helicopter Microchip is piloting. The two heroes realize a final confrontation between them is inevitable. Later, Brandon awaits trial, while Mitchell is used by Roxxon to further their research. 


Flashback: A one-panel recollection of Sabretooth's, involving himself, Wolverine, and Silver Fox strapped to tables in a room while four scientists are seen in the background. Presumably, one of them is Dr Phillip Chambers. I suppose this could be a memory implant, but it really looks more like a memory of such like GETTING memory implants. 

Continuity notes: Peter Parker's working at ESU on his Post-Graduate Science Credits, if that helps any. Punisher is still working with Microchip, making this take place before "Suicide Run". Sabretooth is wearing his Jim Lee-era costume, putting this after his XM 7, but before XU 3. His mention of following a "painful memory" might put this immediately after the Sabretooth mini-series, if not there, then at the least, this takes place circa right before it. 

Goofs: Phillip calls Brandon by his own name of "Phillip" in one panel. 

Calendar notes: Takes place in Winter, during snow, over the course of one night. The final panel on the final page is probably days later.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 24 Dec 2006 07:27 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Wolverine v3 #49
By Kevin W.
Director

It proved to be such a simple analysis, I decided to go ahead and post it tonight. Fitting, since the comic is set on Christmas Eve... 

Wolverine v3 #49 
"Better to Give..." 
Written by Rob Williams 
Pencils by Laurence Campbell 
Inks by Kris Justice 

Appearances: Wolverine. New Characters: Toulouse Lexington, Pinter, (no first name given, he's Toulouse Lexington's bodyguard), Cave, (no first name given, he's the lead terrorist/kidnapper). 

Synopsis: All events in this issue happen on one evening, (Christmas Eve). 

Wolverine is at "Lacy's" Department store in New York City on Christmas Eve, doing some Christmas shopping on behalf of Kitty Pryde. Also in the store is Toulouse Lexington, (a Paris Hilton clone), and her bodyguard Pinter, who are there to visit the Dept. store's Santa Claus. 

Unfortunately, the department store's Santa and his Elves are actually a criminal gang on hand to kidnap Toulouse, (and ransom her to her billionaire father). They snatch Toulouse, but Pinter escapes and teams up with Wolverine. The bad guys take over the store and pose as a death cult threatening to blow up the store. They set off minor explosives, (not enough to destroy the building) and people flee the store. This serves as a distraction so that the bad guys manage to escape with Toulouse amidst the chaos. 

Wolverine and Pinter manage to track down the head bad guy, (his name is "Cave") and Toulouse down at Times Square, (where he is regrouping with his henchmen). Wolverine and Pinter kill Cave, but he detonates a bomb strapped to Toulouse. With seconds to spare before the bomb explodes, Logan rips the bomb off Toulouse and takes the brunt of the explosion himself. 

He'll regenerate to fight another day, and Pinter and Toulouse are now safe. The End. 

References: 

Pg. 3: Logan narrates how he ended up Christmas shopping. "Kitty Pryde...you're one dead daughter of Illinois. 'You're in New York anyway,' she says. 'Just pick up a few presents,' she says. 'I'll give you a list.'" 

Beyond that, there's no real details into what brought Logan to New York City, (it certainly wasn't originally to go shopping, from the sound of it). 

There are several references to it being the Christmas season, (in particular Christmas Eve) including: 

Pg. 30: Cave says, (amazed that Wolverine was able to track the bad guys down): "You couldn't find us. No one could. There are millions of people in Manhattan. It's Christmas Eve, for @#$% sake!" 

Also on pg. 30: Logan tells Cave and his lackeys, "I got no stomach to rip out the guts of seven Santas on Christmas Eve, but I will." 

That's it for now. I've still got some Daredevil and Hulk reviews coming...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 05:56 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin. I'm assuming this story occurs well past the conclusion of Civil War.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 14 Dec 2006 11:54 pm    Post subject: Daredevil Vol. 2 #88
By Kevin W.
Director

Daredevil Vol. 2 #88 
The Secret Life of Foggy Nelson 
Written by Ed Brubaker 
Art by David Aja 

This stand-alone story catches up with what Foggy has been up to since he was stabbed back in DD2 #82. The world thinks hes dead, but in truth, Foggy was taken and placed in a Witness Protection program of the FBI, and is now recovering from that wound in a safe house in Philadelphia. 

Appearances: In the present, we see Foggy Nelson, Ben Urich, along with various FBI, Mafia, and Hand Ninjas. In the flashbacks, we see Daredevil, Stiltman, Bullseye, Elektra, Karen Page, and more ninjas. 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-20: In the middle of the night, Foggy tries to call up Ben Urich and warn him that hes still alive, and that he needs to get word to Matt. But the FBI cuts off his phone call preventing him from saying any words to Ben. An FBI Agent walks in and tells Foggy they are doing this for his own good, to protect him. 

Later that day, (during daylight hours) Foggy and this FBI agent are rehearsing his new identity, (hes in the Witness Protection Program, somewhat against his will). The FBI agent says theyre doing everything in their power to find Matt, (whos escaped from prison) and to find out who was responsible for Foggy being stabbed. 

Cut to later that night. Foggy overhears a couple of FBI agents in the house talking about how Matt was spotted getting on a plane for Europe, (but that they lost track of him when the plane landed). Foggy decides its time to leave, and sneaks out through a bedroom window and climbs in a taxi. The taxi cab driver turns out to be a Mafia hitman who has been spying on the house, (the mafia has a man inside the FBI who has snitched to the mob where Foggy is at). The hitman drives Foggy to a back alley where other mafia figures are waiting for them. They start to make Foggy get out of the car, but just then, NINJAS ATTACK! These are members of Elektras Hand, and they kill all of the Mafia figures. The lead ninja gives a message from Elektra to Foggy, telling him that he is under their protection, and he is to wait back at the safe house. 

Pg. 21: An epilogue page that occurs the next day. Foggy and the FBI agent are back to rehearsing Foggys new identity in the confines of the house, with Foggy still waiting for word from Matt 

References: Pg. 1: The time on the clock in Ben Urichs room is 2:45 am. So even though the opening pages take place at night, since its after midnight, I put pages 1-20 as all occurring on the same day. 

Also on pg. 1: Ben is watching the late night news, and the news reporter on TV says, -while events last week at Rykers are still under investigation. So the prison riot where Matt escaped from prison at the end of the last story arc occurred last week. 

Also on pg. 1: When Ben answers the phone, (as Foggy tries to call him) Ben says, Who is this? Speak, damn it. Come on, this is two nights in a row. Foggy tried to call 2 nights in a row, but the FBI cut him off from calling both timesI just figured Id note that Foggy tried to call Ben the night prior to the start of this issue. 

Pg. 5: Foggy narrates (though we dont see in flashback) how he was rushed to the hospital, and before he went unconscious to be operated on, he signed a paper allowing the FBI to put him in Protective Custody, (he was scared at the time). He narrates, (about Matt), By the time I came out of my Post-Op sedation, it was a week laterand you were already taking it out on everyone in Rykers. 

So Foggy came out of his operation and woke up probably after his fake funeral in DD2 #83, when Matt was starting to beat up people inside Rykers. 

Pgs. 6-9: FB-These 4 pages have a series of flashbacks, some of which are generic shots, others are events weve seen previously. While we see these flashbacks, Foggy narrates about how hes always been scared while Daredevil/Matt has always been brave. 

6p1: A generic panel shot of Daredevil fighting Stiltman. 

6p2-7: A flashback sequence of Daredevil fighting Bullseye inside the Nelson/Murdock office, with Foggy cowering in the corner behind a desk. Bullseye has a revolver in his hands as the two fight. Daredevil and Bullseye go crashing out the window, leaving Foggy behind. Is this a scene thats been shown previously? Or just a random Daredevil/Bullseye scene that the writer came up with to illustrate how Foggy is a coward while Matt is brave? 

Page 8: A flashback sequence showing Matt in civilian clothes out on the street, fighting ninjas while Foggy rushes off to hide in another alley. 

9p1: A one panel flashback showing the classic scene of Matt holding Elektras supposedly dead body, (no new material shown). 

9p2: A one panel flashback showing the classic scene of Matt holding Karen Pages dead body, (no new material shown). 

9p3: A generic shot of Matt and Foggy, standing in the rain in the cemetery next to someones grave, (going by my memory of previous issues, it appears to be the Elektras headstone). 

9p4-9p5: A two-panel flashback to Foggy being stabbed, (we saw this already in the last story arc, no new material shown). 

Thats it for now. Next up is Daredevil: Father #6.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Dec 2006 04:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Kevin. 

I, too, would like to know if we can count any of the flashbacks as never-before-published scenes that should count in character chronologies. It looks like we're talking about the possibility of 6p1, 6p2-6p7, 8, and 9p3. If so, does anyone have suggestions for placement?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 02:49 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

That should be 6p2-7, (not 6p7). 

I don't see how a generic panel of Daredevil fighting Stiltman out on the NYC streets, (6p1) can be constituted as new material, (how many times have they fought on the NYC streets?) 

The sequences with Daredevil fighting Bullseye in the Nelson/Murdock office, and the other with Daredevil fighting ninjas are a little bit harder to dismiss, as Foggy is present in both scenes, (cowering in the Bullseye sequence, and fleeing in the ninja sequence). Matt's in costume in the Bullseye sequence, out of costume in the fight against the ninjas. Bullseye is in his classic costume, not his "Daredevil movie" outfit. If it was just one panel showing an up close image of DD vs. Bullseye, or DD vs. Ninjas, I'd dismiss it like the "DD vs. Stiltman" panel. 

As for the scene with Matt and Foggy in the cemetary in the rain, (9p3), I double checked, and yes, the tombstone Matt is standing next is designed just like Elektra's old tombstone...so I'm inclined to think he's visiting Elektra's grave, not Karen Page's. 

Really, all of these flashbacks strike me as "Pre-DD vol. 2", (I don't think Daredevil's even fought Stiltman since vol. 2 launched), and as I'm not as familiar with Pre "DD2" appearances, then I'm not going to be much help. Sorry. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 06:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quite all right, Kevin. Any DD experts out there willing to tackle the placement of these flashbacks?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 04:21 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Daredevil: Father #6
By Kevin W.
Director

Chronology Review for Daredevil: Father #6 
"Reunion" 
Written and Drawn by Joe Quesada 

The final issue has come out. I really should've reviewed this whole miniseries all together, but as it's been months since the last issue came out, here's a refresher course: 

My analysis for Issues #3-5 can be found here. 

And my analysis for Issue #2 can be found here. 

And my analysis for Issue #1 can be found somewhere in the archives... 

Before I begin, can I get confirmation on a flashback? Can someone please let me know if the flashback sequence seen throughout this miniseries involving Matt stumbling across his father, (Battlin Jack Murdock) roughing up a neighborhood butcher on behalf of the mob, was this ever shown before now? Is it an established part of Daredevil canon that Matt's father was a mob enforcer for a brief while? Or is this something that's been added since it was shown in the Daredevil movie a couple years back? 

When I asked this in my analysis for Issues #3-5, Enda80 replied: 

Quote: 
>>>
So far as I can discern, Daredevil the Man Without Fear introduced the idea of Jack Murdock as a mob enforcer, an idea later used by the movie from 2003. (Allegedly, MWF started as a treatment for a DD film, and Miller did not attempt to make it fit into Earth-616 when he turned into a comic.) 
<<<

I just want to double check, that's all. If this is new material, then the FB image shown in DD: Father #1, pg. 3, (a splash page showing Jack Murdock beating up the butcher) is the first time we see it, and the image reaccurs throughout the miniseries. 

Appearances: 

Daredevil, (Matt Murdock) 
Maggie Farrell (aka "Johnny Sockets") 
Foggy Nelson 

The Santerians: 
Eleggua, (aka Nestor Nero Rodriguez) 
Chango 
Oya 
Ogun 
Oshun 

Synopsis: Pg. 1-13: Matt races back to his law office to prevent Maggie Farrell, (whom he has discovered is the serial killer the press has dubbed "Johnny Sockets") from killing Foggy Nelson. He busts in just in time to catch Maggie about to kill Foggy. Maggie goes into a rant about how it's all Matt's fault that she's had such a cruel life, and thus it's his fault that she's a serial killer. 

The F.B.I. bursts in, (they've still monitoring Matt, so I suppose it makes sense) and when Maggie tries to surrender, one of the Feds accidently shoots her in a moment of panic. As she dies, she whispers a secret in Matt's ear, (here's the revelation): 

She's the daughter of the blind man young Matt Murdock saved from being hit by a truck of radioactive chemicals, (which blinded young Matt). This man molested young Maggie as a little girl, and this would've been prevented if Matt had not saved the old man from being hit by the truck. 

Pg. 14-24p7: This is probably a few nights later. Matt is in costume, (which he shouldn't be, since this miniseries is set during the "one year" gap from Bendis' run on Daredevil. During the "one year", he supposedly wasn't in costume for the most part. But ah well, he spent most of the miniseries out of costume, so if he wants to go out on patrol, so be it). He's swinging across the rooftops on patrol, when he spots the Santerians down below busting a criminal gang. He moves on and pays a visit to Maggie Farrell's dad, (who's still alive, and is a crippled old man). He tells Maggie's father that his daughter is dead, and that Matt knows he molested her, and the old man breaks down crying. 

Pg. 24p8-27: Flashback: These last few pages are a flashback to the sequence we've seen throughout this miniseries: Matt stumbling across his father beating up the local butcher in a back alley. This scene adds an addition to the flasback, (pgs. 25p2-27) showing young Matt running away, but Jack Murdock catches up with young Matt, and apologizes, and comforts his son. 

References: 

There's a few other flashbacks that should be noted: 

Pg. 6p2-6p5: FB- This fb is set inbetween pgs. 14 and 15 of DD: Father #1, (what's shown here is Maggie inside Matt's office. She finds Matt's client address book and pockets it for herself. By the way, so that you're clear where the break is, pg. 14 of DD: Father #1 has Matt arriving for work, meeting up with Foggy, who tells him Maggie, his new client, is inside his office. Pg. 15 has him stepping inside the office, greeting Maggie, (whom we now know just pocketed the address book). 

Pg. 7p2-7p3: FB- This fb shows Maggie and Sean, (her husband) in a doctor's office. She's just been diagnosed with Ovarian cancer. She looks over and sees a newspaper on the doctor's desk, (it's the now classic headline revealing that Matt Murdock in Daredevil). We're told by narration that this is what made Maggie realize that every bad thing that's happened to her is Matt's fault. 

Pg. 7p4: FB-This fb panel shows Maggie starting to keep a scrapbook, cutting out pictures of news stories featuring Matt/DD. 

Pg. 8p5: A one-panel shot of Maggie sneaking up on Sean, getting ready to stab him, (as shown in DD:F #5). To be clear, this occurs between pgs. 13 and 14 of DD:F #5. Pg. 13 ends with Matt calling Maggie to warn her that Sean is "Johnny Sockets", (that's what he originally thought). Sean makes Maggie hang up on Matt. Pg. 14 has Matt taking a taxi out to where Maggie and Sean live in New Jersey, (where he finds Sean dying from being stabbed, and learns that Maggie is on her way back to Matt's law office). 

So um, Paul, can you by chance organize all of the "present day" sequences in order from this miniseries, letting me know where they are on the Calender?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 06:43 pm    
By Somebody

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Before I begin, can I get confirmation on a flashback? Can someone please let me know if the flashback sequence seen throughout this miniseries involving Matt stumbling across his father, (Battlin Jack Murdock) roughing up a neighborhood butcher on behalf of the mob, was this ever shown before now? Is it an established part of Daredevil canon that Matt's father was a mob enforcer for a brief while? Or is this something that's been added since it was shown in the Daredevil movie a couple years back? 

When I asked this in my analysis for Issues #3-5, Enda80 replied: 

Quote: 
>>>
So far as I can discern, Daredevil the Man Without Fear introduced the idea of Jack Murdock as a mob enforcer, an idea later used by the movie from 2003. (Allegedly, MWF started as a treatment for a DD film, and Miller did not attempt to make it fit into Earth-616 when he turned into a comic.) 
<<<

I just want to double check, that's all. If this is new material, then the FB image shown in DD: Father #1, pg. 3, (a splash page showing Jack Murdock beating up the butcher) is the first time we see it, and the image reaccurs throughout the miniseries. 
<<<

Much as I hate to utter these words in pixels, Enda's right to the best of my knowledge - certainly, Jack Murdock is briefly a mob enforcer in my MWF TPB. However, I can't speak as to whether DD:Father is the first appearance of it in a canonical comic or not.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 06:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin, thanks for doing the analysis. Here's what I've come up with for placement on the Calendar. 

YEAR 21 

Tuesday, May 14 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #6  FB (7p2-7p3) 
The same day as DD2 32 (20-22). Sean and Maggie Farrell are in a doctors office where shes just been diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She looks over and sees a newspaper on the doctors desk  its features the headline revealing that Matt Murdock is Daredevil. This makes Maggie believe that every bad thing thats happened to her is Matts fault. 

Saturday, May 18 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #6  FB (7p4) 
One day, shortly after DD:F 6-FB (7p2-7p3). Maggie Farrell cuts out pictures of news stories featuring Matt/Daredevil for her scrapbook. 

YEAR 22 

Wednesday, February 12 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #1  FB (23p1) 
One day. Now a media mogul, Nero Rodriguez attends a music awards ceremony; if it's the Grammys, then it's mid-February. 

Thursday, March 27 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #1  FB (23p2) 
One day. Since Ben Grimm is a civic leader here, this flashback probably occurs before FF3 68 (1p1), the start of the storyline that leads to the FFs trouble in Latveria. Nero Rodriguez stands alongside Matt Murdock (no goatee), Foggy Nelson, the Thing, and others as he is presented a medal for civic service. 

Sunday, June 15 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #1 (1-13) 
One Fathers Day. This segment occurs after DD2 50. Daredevil (on a rare occasion of being in costume; no goatee) is on patrol, jumping from rooftop to rooftop, thinking about his father. He stops by an old boxing gym, and pauses to see a poster of his father. 

Monday, June 16 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #1 (14-15) 
The day after DD:F 1 (1-13). It is two weeks before DD:F 2 (1-13). A Daily Bugle headline reads, Hells Kitchen Spotless: Crime Rate continues to fall. Daredevil cooks crooks good. At 9 AM, Matt arrives at the office and Foggy tells him his new client, Maggie Farrell, is in his office. 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #6  FB (6p2-6p5) 
The same day as DD:F 1 (14-15). Inside Matts office, Maggie finds Matts client address book and pockets it for herself. 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #1 (16-26) 
The same day as DD:F 6-FB (6p2-6p5). Matt and Foggy meet with Sean and Maggie Farrell, who are out to sue the New Jersey Power and Light Company because Maggie got cancer from chemicals the company has been dumping chemicals in the river near her house. Matt and Foggy take the case. Despite Seans denial, Matt suspects hes met him before. That night, Nero Rodriguez sits at home watching his own biography on television. Meanwhile, Daredevil beats up a thug and gets him to turn himself in to the police. On Manhattans East Side, a couple prepares to have kinky sex when things turn violent and the man kills the woman. 

Friday, July 4 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #2 (1-13) 
One night, two weeks after DD:F 1 (16-26). Nero watches the late night news at home. The news highlight is about the serial killer dubbed Johnny Sockets on the loose in New York City, having committed the third such murder in as many weeks. The news also notes the shift of crime from Hells Kitchen to other parts of New York (reflective of Daredevil becoming the new Kingpin); this shift is detailed in DD2 56. A woman enters the room and tells Nero its time to go to the club. Matt (no goatee) cant sleep because of the heat and quietness of his neighborhood, so he goes on patrol as Daredevil, which he admits is pointless, since hes kicked the bad guys out of Hells Kitchen. He investigates a commotion in Chelsea, where he sees criminals tied up on the ground as the police arrive. Detective Chris Gonzalez is told by another police officer that the criminals are part of a drug ring that a group of new super-heroes called the Santerians apparently just busted up. It is day twenty of whats being called the deadliest heat wave in New York history. 

Saturday, July 5 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #2  FB (14p1-14p3, 14p5-14p7, 15p2-15p4, 16p1-16p3, 16p5-16p7, 17p2-17p4) 
Perhaps the night of the day after DD:F 2 (1-13). Johnny Sockets kills a woman in a back alley behind a night club and is chased off by a bouncer. 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #2 (14-17) 
The same night as DD:F 2-FB. Nero watches TV news coverage of the murder that Johnny Sockets committed. 

Sunday, July 6 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #2 (18-20) 
The night of the day after DD:F 2 (14-17). Because Jessica is a private eye here, this segment must occur before PULSE 1 (3-22). At 10:58 PM, Matt and Foggy review their latest case with client Maggie Farrell. Sitting in as well is Jessica Jones (not visibly pregnant), who Matt is trying to bring in as a private investigator for the case. When they see that Maggie has a black eye, Matt inquires about spousal abuse, but Maggie denies it and storms out of the office. 

Monday, July 7 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #2 (21-30) 
Probably the night after DD:F 2 (18-20). Matt spies on Maggie and Sean at their house in Hoboken. Maggie and Sean have a fight and Sean leaves the house. Sean says he likes to go for walks in the city, but Maggie accuses him of having another lover. Matt follows Sean to New York City and leaps from rooftop to rooftop in an effort to spy on him. Suddenly, he is blasted out of the sky by an energy attack and falls to the ground. A bunch of costumed characters stand over the fallen Murdock, ready to kick butt. 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #3 (1-10) 
The same night as DD:F 2 (21-30). Matt has been attacked by the Santerians, a new group of NYC super-heroes whose powers are magical/voodoo in origin. The leader of the Santerians, Eluggua, says that Matt the Kingpin has cleaned up crime in Hells Kitchen, but hes simply pushed all of the crime into other districts. Eluggua then asks Matt what hes going to do about Johnny Sockets, and Matt says nothing, since Johnny Sockets isnt killing people in Hells Kitchen. Eluggua calls Matt a fake and they fight. The Santerians beat up Matt and leave him alone. Matt wakes up in the alley later on and hears word that Johnny Sockets has struck again. 

Tuesday, July 8 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #3 (11-32) 
The day after DD:F 3 (1-10). Matt stays home from work (so its probably a weekday) and spends the day recovering from his wounds. He calls up Maggie and Sean Farrell, his latest clients, and asks Maggie to meet him tomorrow. That night he goes out and tracks down the Santerians and he starts to battle them again to show them who the boss of Hells Kitchen is. 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #4 (1-9) 
The same night as DD:F 3 (11-22). Daredevil battles the Santerians again and defeats them. They call a truce and go their separate ways. 

Wednesday, July 9 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #4 (10-28) 
The day after DD:F 4 (1-9). Matt meets with Maggie Farrell to discuss her lawsuit. Matt asks her if shes being abused by her husband Sean. She denies it and fires Matt. That night, Johnny Sockets kills his latest victim. At Neros residence, Nero watches the evening news again. Barry Fling is interviewing the new Police Commissioner Chris Gonzalez about the Johnny Sockets crime-wave. Daredevil breaks into Neros residence and says hes figured out that Nero is Eleggua. Daredevil asks why Nero fights crime, and Nero explains. Nero asks Daredevil to help catch Johnny Sockets, and Daredevil leaves, refusing to help. The TV news reports that the police might have a suspect in the Johnny Sockets case. Tony Stark has a fund-raiser on this night. It is baseball season, since a newspaper headline states, Mets slide continues. 

Thursday, July 10 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #5 (4p3-13) 
The day after DD:F 4 (10-28). It is a couple of years after DD saved Guida from the Matador. Matt is at his office when FBI agent Guida barges in and demands to speak with Matt. He tells Matt that the FBI has received its first lead in the Johnny Sockets case  an old address book that belonged to Matt. It contains the addresses of many of Matts former clients, all victims of Sockets. Matt figures out that the book was stolen from his office. Guida returns the book to Matt and warns Matt the FBI might be paying him a visit soon to ask him about the murders. Matt examines the book and picks up the scent of Sean Farrells cologne. Guida leaves and Matt calls up Maggie and tries to warn her, but Sean hangs up the phone on her. 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #6  FB (8p5) 
The same day as DD:F 5 (4-13). Maggie sneaks up on Sean to stab him. 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #5 (14-25) 
The same day as DD:F 6-FB (8p5). Matt has a limo driver take him to the Farrells house in New Jersey, but when he gets there, he breaks inside to find Sean bleeding to death and talking about how he was always jealous of Matt. Matt figures out that its Maggie, not Sean, who is the Johnny Sockets killer. Sean tells Matt that Maggie is heading to his law office. Matt races back to New York City. At the law office, Maggie drugs Foggy and prepares to pluck out his eyes. 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #6 (1-13) 
The same day as DD:F 5 (14-25). It is probably a few days before DD:F 6 (14-24). Matt races back to his law office to prevent Maggie Farrell, who he has discovered is the serial killer Johnny Sockets, from killing Foggy Nelson. He busts in just in time and Maggie goes into a rant about how its Matts fault that shes had such a cruel life, and thus its his fault that shes a serial killer. The FBI bursts in, and when Maggie tries to surrender, one of the Feds accidently shoots her in a moment of panic. As she dies, she whispers a secret in Matts ear that shes the daughter of the blind man young Matt Murdock saved from being hit by a truck of radioactive chemicals. This man molested young Maggie as a little girl, and this wouldve been prevented if Matt had not saved the old man from being hit by the truck. 

Sunday, July 13 
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #6 (14-24p7) 
One night, probably a few days after DD:F 6 (1-13). Matt is in costume, which must be an exception to his giving up the costumed identity during this time. As Daredevil swings across rooftops on patrol, he spots the Santerians busting a criminal gang. He moves on and pays a visit to Maggie Farrells dad, who he informs of his daughters death. Matt tells him he knows he molested her, and the old man breaks down crying.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 03:54 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

There's one time reference I forgot to mention from Issue #6, (sorry!): 

Quote: 
>>>
DAREDEVIL: FATHER #6  FB (7p2-7p3) 
The same day as DD2 32 (20-22). Sean and Maggie Farrell are in a doctors office where shes just been diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She looks over and sees a newspaper on the doctors desk  its features the headline revealing that Matt Murdock is Daredevil. This makes Maggie believe that every bad thing thats happened to her is Matts fault.  
<<<

In this scene here, Maggie narrates, "Two years ago, I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer." She then glances over and sees the classic newspaper headline with Matt Murdock being revealed to be Daredevil. If that time reference is to be believed, then DD: Father #6 occurs "2 years" after DD2 32 (20-22). I personally suspect that was more of a "real life" passage of time reference by the writer, rather than a Marvel Universe passage of time, but if you can somehow make that work, than so be it. 

Other than that, your calender break down looks good, I believe! Except for one line: 


Quote: 
>>>
Monday, June 16 
On Manhattans East Side, a couple prepares to have kinky sex when things turn violent and the man kills the woman. 
<<<

As we now know, Johnny Sockets was a woman, not a man. I would change that line to something like, "Johnny Sockets claims his first victim." 


Quote: 
>>>
Much as I hate to utter these words in pixels, Enda's right to the best of my knowledge - certainly, Jack Murdock is briefly a mob enforcer in my MWF TPB. However, I can't speak as to whether DD:Father is the first appearance of it in a canonical comic or not. 
<<<

Well, since MWF is no longer considered canon, it appears that the flashbacks to Matt's childhood are first seen here in this miniseries. I'm going to break down the childhood flashbacks one more time, and ask they be included in the MCP: 

DD: Father #1 Pg. 2: A splash page showing Battlin' Jack Murdock slapping his son for disobeying. 

DD: Father #1 Pg. 3: A splash page showing Battlin' Jack Murdock roughing up the neighborhood butcher on behalf of the local mob. 

DD: Father #2 Pg. 6: A brief one page flashback, (its a splash page), showing Matts father Jack sitting in a chair getting drunk and thinking about Maggie, (Matts mother). Matts on the floor doing homework. 

And I'll make note of this, but it is NOT new material: DD: Father #1 Pg. 4-5: A two-page splash showing Matt pushing the old man out of the way of the truck with chemicals. I'm certain that this has been shown before now though... 

As these are all flashbacks seen through Matt's eyes, (from his perspective) then all of these childhood flashbacks must have occured before he was blinded as a kid. Now, to clarify the extended flashback shown in DD: Father #6, (since I don't think I did a good enough job in my analysis above...): 

DD: Father #6, Pg. 24p8-24p9: These two panels are a close up on young Matt's face, as he stares in horror at... 

DD: Father #6 Pg. 25p1: This is a duplicate panel of DD: Father #1 Pg. 2, showing Jack Murdock beating up the butcher. 

DD: Father #6 Pg. 25p2-27: Matt runs away from his father down the street. Jack Murdock catches up with him and apologizes to his son and hugs him. 

That should do it then. Time to move on to other analysis...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 06:51 am    Post subject: Gunhawks 1-7
By Dhall

And now a venture into the 1972-73 gap... <grin> 

Gunhawks #1 
October 1972 
The Thundering Herd! 

Old timer Jed saves Reno and Kid from a thundering herd of Buffalo, but not before Kid breaks his leg. The old timer takes them in, and teaches Reno how to shoot a buffalo gun. They recount their origins (which are fairly politically incorrect) Both Southerners, Reno was brought up on the Cassidy estate, where all of the slaves were well treated. When Kid went off to war, Reno stayed behind to protect the estate. When the Union army came, they killed everyone, knocked out Reno, and carried away his girl, Rachel. After this, he joined the rebel army, and when the war ended, returned home and met up with Kid. The two of them teamed up to find Rachel. With their origin recounted, the pair and Jed go buffalo hunting, but run into a gang led by Milo Dawson. Reno shoots most of the gang, killing Dawson. Dawson is wearing a locket which belonged to Rachel, providing them with their first clue. 

Characters Appearing: 
Reno Jones 
Kid Cassidy 
Milo Dawson 
Jed 
Rachel 
Master Cassidy 

Gunhawks #2 
December 1972 
The Night they rode old Dixie down! 

Reno and Kid chase down the last man from Dawsons gang. Reno shoots him, and he dies, but not before telling them about Rachel. She was sold to a plantation owner, who is still keeping slaves even after the war. Reno and Kid go to the town, pretending to be prisoner and escort. Kid turns Reno in to the sherriff, then meets up with Colonel Johnson, the plantation owner who offers to buy Reno, if they can bust him out of jail. Kid and Johnsons men do this, then Kid sees a picture of Rachel. Reno leads a slave revolt, and one of the slaves shoots Johnson. Kid tells Reno that Col. Johnson told him that Rachel had been at the plantation, but had been kidnapped recently in an Indian raid. 

Characters Appearing: 
Reno Jones 
Kid Cassidy 
Colonel Johnson 


Gunhawks #3 
February 1973 
Massacre at Medicine Creek! 

Reno and Kid are apprehended as vagrants by the U.S. Calvary, which is on its way to massacring an Indian tribe. Reno tries to prevent the massacre, and is taken by the army. Kid is left for dead, but meets Rachel, who is married to an Indian named Grey Fox. Kid and Fox fight, Kid wins, and decides to become a brave. 

Characters Appearing: 
Reno Jones 
Kid Cassidy 
Captain Warren Worth 
Lone Beaver 
Rachael 
Grey Fox 
Red Squirrel 


Gunhawks #4 
April 1973 
Trial by Ordeal! 

Kid undergoes the trials necessary to be acknowledged as an Indian brave, while Reno is let out of jail. Reno goes to find the Kid, only to be taken prisoner by the Cheyenne. Kid is knocked out while fighting a bear, Reno goes into the arena, and stabs the bear, while hidden, Rachael watches. 

Characters Appearing: 
Kid Cassidy 
Grey Fox 
Rachael 
Reno Jones 
Captain Warren Worth 

Gunhawks #5 
June 1973 
The Reverend Mr. Graves 

The Reverend Mr. Graves sells guns to the Indians, in exchange for Reno. He tells the Cavalry that they are unarmed, as he wants both sides to massacre each other. Reno breaks free, and warns Grey Fox. Kid and Reno escape together. Graves attacks them, but Kid shoots him dead. The Cavalry massacres most of the Indians, but Grey Fox and Rachael escape. Kid and Reno see them, but Kid hits Reno over the head with his rifle, because Rachael doesnt want Reno to know she is married to Grey Fox. 

Characters Appearing: 
Kid Cassidy 
Grey Fox 
Rachael 
Reno Jones 
Reverend Mr. Graves 

Gunhawks #6 
August 1973 
Death of a Gunhawk 

From the woods, Grey Fox takes aim at the major, but afraid of him hitting Kid, Rachael throws his aim off, causing him to shoot and kill Kid Cassidy, just as Reno, mad at kid for knocking him out, is threatening Kid with his gun, and firing a shot wide. The major blames Reno for Kids death. Reno escapes. Grey Fox ties up Rachael and goes to kIll Reno, but Reno kills him instead. Reno buries Kid, then is chased off by the cavalry. Rachel is freed by, and joins a group of women headed by wagon to San Fransisco. 

Characters Appearing: 
Kid Cassidy 
Reno Jones 
Grey Fox 
Rachael 

Gunhawk #7 
October 1973 
Rodeo Doom-Day 

In a flashback, Reno picks up a new set of clothes, by winning at Gambling. In the main issues, he saves a covered wagon full of women from the Indians, not knowing Rachel is one of them. Then he goes into town for a rodeo, to try to earn some money to continue his search for Rachel. San Francisco Slade has him framed for murder, and Reno is thrown in jail, where he sees Rachel passing, but she does not see him. 

In FB (between 6 and 7) 
Reno Jones 

Characters Appearing: 
Reno Jones 
Rachel Brown 
San Francisco Slade 


**BROWN, RACHEL 
GUN 1-FB 
GUN 3 
GUN 4 
GUN 5 
GUN 6 
GUN 7 

**DAWSON, MILO 
GUN 1 

**GRAVES, REVEREND MR. 
GUN 5 

**GREY FOX 
GUN 3 
GUN 4 
GUN 5 
GUN 6 

**KID CASSIDY 
GUN 1-FB 
GUN 1 
GUN 2 
GUN 3 
GUN 4 
GUN 5 
GUN 6 

**MASTER CASSIDY 
GUN 1-FB 

**RENO JONES 
GUN 1-FB 
GUN 1 
GUN 2 
GUN 3 
GUN 4 
GUN 5 
GUN 6 
GUN 7-FB 
GUN 7 

**SAN FRANCISCO SLADE 
GUN 7 

**Worth, Captain Warren 
GUN 3 
GUN 4

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 09:00 pm    Post subject: Gambit Vol.2 1-4
By Dhall

Gambit Vol.2 1-4 
GAMBIT2 #1 
September 1997 
Falling Star 
This is a Howard Mackie limited series, It occurs in the timeframe where Gambit was off the X-Men, sometime after UX 350. Gambit gets mixed up, in Miami Beach with a mysterious naked blonde woman, whom he meets, while escaping from a heist which he has pulled. Meanwhile, both the Vatican, and a mysterious criminal named Oliver Stoker want the woman for their own ends. 
Characters Appearing: 
Gambit 
Bonavita, Father Miguel 
Tante Mattie Baptiste 
Oliver Stoker 
Sister Katrina 
Brother Marcelo 
Anielle, The Fallen One 
Ramone 

Gambit2 #2 
October 1997 
Shaow Rise 

Gambit recovers from his wounds, and fights Sybil. 

Characters Appearing: 
Gambit 
Tante Mattie Baptiste 
Sister Katrina 
Brother Marcelo 
Sybil 
Anielle 
Oliver Stoker 
His dog, Cerebrus 
Wormwood 

Gambit2 #3 

November 1997 
True Colors 

Gambit escapes from Stoker, taking Anielle with him, and travels to Europe, on his way to the Vatican to seek out Father Bonavita. 

Flashback: (Occurs between issue 2 and 3) 
Gambit 
Anielle 
Oliver Stoker 
Cerebrus 
Wormwood 
Sister Katrina 

Characters Appearing: 
Gambit 
Anielle 
Cerebrus 
Sibyl 
Sister Katrina 
Oliver Stoker 
Wormwood 


Gambit2 #4 
December 1997 
Heavens Promise 

Once they reach the Vatican, Anielle vanishes, taking Stoker with her. Gambit is able to save Katrina. 

Characters Appearing: 

Gambit 
Sybil 
Anielle 
Cerebrus 
Oliver Stoker 
Black Kat/Sister Katrina 
Father Bonavita 
Wormwood 
Tante Mattie Baptiste 




Gambit 
UX 350 
GAM '99-FB 
GAM3 0.5-FB 
XU 18 
GAM3 0.5-FB 
GAM3 0.5 
UX 361-FB-BTS 
*GAM2 1 
GAM2 2 
*GAM2 3-FB 
*GAM2 3 
*GAM2 4 
UX 361 
X 81 
XU 22 
A3 10 
UX 362 

TANTE MATTIE/MATTIE BAPTISTE 
GAM3 12-FB 
{GAM 3} 
GAM 4 
R 1 
R 2 
R 3 
R 4 
*GAM2 1 
GAM2 2 
*GAM2 3 
GAM3 2 
GAM3 4 
GAM3 16-FB 
GAM3 17 
GAM3 18 
GAM3 19 
GAM3 21 
GAM3 22 

ANIELLE 
*GAM2 1 
GAM2 2 
*GAM2 3-FB 
*GAM2 3 
*GAM2 4 


SISTER KATRINA 
*GAM2 1 
GAM2 2 
*GAM2 3-FB 
*GAM2 3 
*GAM2 4 


BONAVITA, FATHER MIGUEL 
*GAM2 1 
GAM2 2-BTS ?Not sure why hes listed as BTS here. Probably s/b removed. 
*GAM2 4 

**CEREBRUS II 
GAM2 2 
GAM2 3-FB 
GAM2 3 
GAM2 4 

STOKER, OLIVIER 
*GAM2 1 
GAM2 2 
*GAM2 3-FB 
*GAM2 3 
*GAM2 4 

SYBIL 
GAM2 2 
*GAM2 3 
*GAM2 4 

**WORMWOOD 
GAM2 2 
GAM2 3-FB 
GAM2 3 
GAM2 4 


PURCELL, MARY 
GAM '99-FB-BTS 
GAM '99-FB 
GAM3 6-FB 
GAM '99-FB 
GAM3 0.5-FB-BTS 
XU 18-BTS 
GAM3 0.5-FB-BTS 
GAM3 0.5 
UX 361-FB-BTS 
*GAM2 1-BTS 
GAM2 2-BTS 
*GAM2 3-FB-BTS 
*GAM2 3 
*GAM2 4 
UX 361-BTS 
X 81 
XU 22-BTS 
A3 10-BTS 
UX 362-BTS 
X 82 
X 83-BTS 
X 84-BTS 
UX 365-BTS 
GAM3 1-BTS 
X 85-BTS

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 11:23 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It occurs in the timeframe where Gambit was off the X-Men, sometime after UX 350. 
<<<

It does? Do we have any evidence of this? 

AFAIK, it was published concurrent with UX #347-350, and as such could be assumed to have occured either before or after that storyline. 

The difference? If it occurs after UX #350, then Gambit's possessed by Mary Purcell. If it occurs before UX #341 (Gambit is unavailable to appear anywhere else between UX #341-350), then he's not. 

Personally, if it could go in either place, I'd prefer to place it earlier and *not* have to presume the BTS appearance of a character that the writer didn't intend to be there. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 06:08 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
It does? Do we have any evidence of this? 
<<<

Tons! I'll come back to the in-story evidence in a bit, but the fact that issue 2 of this series is already in the project listings, says something. 


Quote: 
>>>
he difference? If it occurs after UX #350, then Gambit's possessed by Mary Purcell. If it occurs before UX #341 (Gambit is unavailable to appear anywhere else between UX #341-350), then he's not. 

Personally, if it could go in either place, I'd prefer to place it earlier and *not* have to presume the BTS appearance of a character that the writer didn't intend to be there.  
<<<

This is irrelevant, either the story occurs before or after UX #350, it makes NO difference to us as chronologers if a character such as Mary Purcell appears BTS or not. If the story is set after UX 350 then she does, if before then she doesn't. It's immaterial to the placement of the story. 
As far as publishing dates go, as you say if it went before UX 350, it would have to go before UX 341, that's pushing the story six months out of publishing dates, as opposed to placing it concurrently, or slightly after the current UX issues. 

Actual In-Book evidence: 
Issue #1, Page #1: a lone thief who seeks to repent for the sins of his past. 

Page #5: Bouncin around outer space with the X-Men, saving civilizations * See UX 342-344 Kelly 

Issue #3: Page 17: Different Time, Id take you straight to a professor I know  Name of X - .But dat just aint in the cards. 

Issue #4: Page 7: Just to keep my mind off other things really, things name of Rogue, X-Men, An a history of O mistakes Ive been running from for way too long. 

So, Ive got to ask, did you actually look at the books, before deciding that it might go before UX #341? We know from Page 5 of issue 1 that this occurs after the space arc, and thus must occur after UX 350.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 06:14 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
So, Ive got to ask, did you actually look at the books, before deciding that it might go before UX #341? 
<<<

I didn't get the impression that Jeph had decided anything. He was asking for your justification for placing the story where you did, and if it could go in an alternate slot. 


watching: cyber

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 07:41 pm    
By Dhall

ah well, sorry then, if I got an impression other than the one intended, but that's not how I read it. Doesn't matter I guess, just saying that by page 5 of the first issue it's pretty clear where this story goes, so I don't see the point of assuming it could go anywhere else, for arguments sake.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 08:52 pm    
By Somebody

Well, the issue #1, page 5 dialogue seems to clinch it, complete as it is with footnote; but the other stuff doesn't mean anything either way. '#1pg1 means nothing - the "sins" were long before the mini even if it had been pre-UX341; #3pg15, Professor X had been out of the picture since Onslaught and wouldn't be back until after Gambit himself rejoined the team, and #4pg7 could be read as a reference to a combination of the mess which ended in Rogue's then-apparently-burgeoning relationship with Joseph, which Gambit was less than happy about, with the earlier mess starting at the end of Legion Quest and lasting until Rogue left the X-Men and Gambit @ the end of XM45 (which, of course, led to her meeting Joseph in the first place). 

Just a point - as I say, the #1pg5 dialogue seems to answer it, but the other stuff isn't actually evidence.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 09:53 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Just a point - as I say, the #1pg5 dialogue seems to answer it, but the other stuff isn't actually evidence. 
<<<

Each bit on it's own, perhaps not, collectively though, and looking at the publication dates, is enough to answer the question of does it happen sometime before or after 350, I mean if he's with the team, then the line about Rogue makes little sense, and that he keeps mentioning needing redemption, sins of the past, etc. implies that these are weighing on him, to me that's a clue, i.e. evidence, just not the conclusive evidence that the Page 5 dialogue is.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 11:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

No, Dave, I didn't look at the books at all before posting -- I was at work. All I saw was you claiming that it went after UX #350, and not saying why. 

I saw the BTS for Mary Purcell, and wondered if there was a cleaner placement option that didn't require us to assume her presence. So I looked up the books' publication dates, did a little thinking about what was going on in UX at the time, and offered an alternate placement idea. 

Sorry. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Dec 2006 05:52 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
No, Dave, I didn't look at the books at all before posting -- I was at work. All I saw was you claiming that it went after UX #350, and not saying why.  
<<<

Sorry then, but my reasoning was that issue 2 had been in the listings for years, probably since the issue came out, and I hadn't seen anyone disputing it's placement. So I thought it wasn't really necessary to make a case for the placement of this series, I thought we had already agreed on this. If issue 2 hadn't already been in the MCP, I would have certainly explained why it had to come after UX 350. Perhaps I should have done so anyway. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Posted: 05 Nov 2006 11:07 pm    Post subject: Analysis for "What If" 2006 issues
By Kevin W.
Director

I'll be reviewing these as they come out. Yes, my reviews for Daredevil and Incredible Hulk are still coming...I should have some of them done soon. 

"What if: Featuring Avengers Disassembled" aka "What if the Scarlet Witch Hadn't Acted Alone?" 

Written by Jeff Parker 
Drawn by Aaron Lopresti 

Nothing in this issue could really affect Earth-616 in any way. The story takes place in an alternate reality wherein the author tries to do a better job of coming up with an explanation for Brian Michael Bendis' "Avengers Disassembled" storyline, (he's not changing the actual storyline, he's changing the fallout from the storyline). 

In this reality, Beast does a better job of investigating the fallout from "Avengers Disassembled" and discovers that Dr. Strange and Magneto's appearances at the end of the storyline were just more illusions by Wanda. In this reality, Wanda's craziness is being influenced by... 

wait for it... 

CAPTAIN AMERICA. Yes, in this world, the affair Captain America and Wanda were having, (as seen in the pages of Captain America and the Falcon) led to Captain America's being mentally disturbed right alongside Wanda. He uses his tactician skills to have Wanda fool everyone into believing that Magneto carried a comatose Wanda away to Genosha. In reality, Captain America and Wanda meet up with Magneto in Genosha and use her reality powers to revive the nation and all of it's inhabitants. Their goal is to wipe out genocide and make the world a better place, using Wanda's powers, (with Captain America pulling the strings). 

Beast figures out the plot, and the Avengers and X-Men assemble and assault Genosha. Wanda's powers go crazy when Rogue touches her, and she ends up killing most of the heroes on the island. Captain America comes to his senses and has Wanda kill both him and her. The End. 

My favorite line by Dr. Strange, (the "real" Dr. Strange): "Of course there's Chaos Magic." THANK YOU JEFF PARKER!!!  

There's only one throw away panel in this issue which could possibly occur in Earth 616: The Watcher appears at the end, but he's inside this reality, not observing it through a portal. The Watcher tells how Beast somehow used the last of the Chaos magic to see into other realities, to see if he could've done things differently, to spare all of the heroes. 

The Watcher narrates, (in regards to these alternate earths) "In the most likely one where he wasn't challenged, Captain America's mind lost track and became concerned with establishing a new team of Avengers. In this line, Pietro convinced his sister to create a peaceful world were mutants were not the minority. One man remember the previous reality though." 

As the Watcher says this, we see one panel showing a close up of Wolverine, (out of costume, strangely enough). This occurs on pg. 37, panel 2. 

That's it for now. More reviews to come.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2006 07:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The Watcher narrates, (in regards to these alternate earths) "In the most likely one where he wasn't challenged, Captain America's mind lost track and became concerned with establishing a new team of Avengers. In this line, Pietro convinced his sister to create a peaceful world were mutants were not the minority. One man remember the previous reality though."  
<<<

Isn't this a description of Earth-616? If so, is Jeff Parker suggesting that in the "real" MU Cap was indeed behind Wanda's craziness? Is the reality shown in this issue of What If? only different from the "real" MU in that Beast followed up on an investigation of Disassembled?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2006 07:43 am    
By JD

Actually, no. There are some events that never happened in 616, mainly that Cap secretly goes to Genosha and makes an alliance with Magneto and Xavier to bring the world to an utopic state. Since it was Cap's plan all along, Beast's investigation has nothing to do with that (it just allows the heroes to foil the plan). 

Moreover : 
- this issue claims that Wanda was not insane in Disassembled, which is false in 616 (according to HOUSE OF M) 
- it also claims that Magneto in A 503 was fake, which contradicts the followup to that in EXCALIBUR v3. Actually, a lot of this issue was contradicting what happened in that series.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2006 08:26 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

It'd almost be nice if we could buy Jeff Parker's version as the "REAL" Avengers Disassembled storyline, wouldn't it? But that may be kind of a stretch. 

Yeah, the Watcher does kind of suggest that Captain's mind lost track and he turned his attention to creating the New Avengers, (while in THIS reality, he met up with Wanda and went to Genosha to team up with Magneto and Xavier). 

The main problem is that Magneto and Dr. Strange were not illusions in the real Earth-616. Magneto remembers going and picking up Wanda at the end of A 503, as shown in the "House of M" miniseries.... 

Quote: 
>>>
- this issue claims that Wanda was not insane in Disassembled, which is false in 616 (according to HOUSE OF M)  
<<<

Actually, I thought the storyline said that Wanda was still crazy, but her crazyness was held in check by Captain America, who gave her a focus, (HIS focus-on creating a better world).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2006 09:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for clearing that up, guys. It appears, then, that one alternate reality -- one in which Cap did plot with Magneto and the Strange and Magneto who showed up after the destruction of Avengers Mansion were not real -- turned out to have the same fate as the mainstream MU after Cap's mind "lost track." 

I suppose that the Wolverine we see in that one panel on the last page of What If? would be the Wolverine of that alternate reality during its version of House of M. 

So...no canonical mainstream MU scenes here.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Nov 2006 11:39 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

"What if: Featuring Spider-Man: The Other" aka "What if Spider-Man had rejected the Spider?" 

Written by Peter David 
Pencils by Khoi Pham 
Inks by Sandu Florea 

This is a more traditional "What if" tale featuring the Watcher as a narrator throughout the tale. In this alternate reality, Peter Parker is in the cacoon, inside his mind with the giant Spider totem, just like in the regular "The Other" storyline. But instead of embracing the spider, Peter attacks and kills the spider here, not wanting to be brought back to life, figuring he's not worthy. 

As such, Peter doesn't hatch from the cocoon. Nothing hatches, it just sits there... 

Some time passes, and in prison, the Venom symbiote escapes, leaving Mac Gargan behind. The symbiote makes its way to the cocoon under the bridge and merges with it. The narration notes that the process takes "months", and that "Winter had rolled into Spring" when it hatches. Peter is resurrected, but it's not Peter, instead it's a new creature: it looks somewhat like Venom, but it calls itself "Poison". 

The Venom symbiote makes it's way to Avengers Tower, breaks inside and confronts Mary Jane and Aunt May. The symbiote wants to infect Mary Jane with the symbiote as well. Logan and Luke Cage burst in and fight Poison, but Poison beats them back. Mary Jane finally agrees to let Poison turn her into another symbiote creature, but she warns Poison that she'll make his life a living hell forever. This does the trick, and Poison leaves. 

Cut to some time later: The narration states that Mary Jane never saw Peter/Poison again, but we learn that Poison still wanted a mate, and so it dug the corpse of Gwen Stacy out of the cemetary and placed it in another cocoon... 

The end. 

The Watcher appears on pgs. 1-2p4, and also briefly appears on pg. 11p3. He is narrating this tale, but not from inside this reality. But it's unclear if he's in Earth-616 either: In the panels he appears in, he's standing around in a blank space, empty except for a spiderweb, (which has a spider on it). It's more like he's narrating for the Twilight Zone, rather than he's at his place on the moon, narrating a new alternate dimension for his records. 

I for one don't believe he's in Earth 616's reality. On pg. 2, he narrates, "You see, in the reality that some have dubbed "616", much is not what it seems...and death more so than most." That sounds more like he's standing outside of it then a part of it. But I could be wrong: maybe he meant it like, "in THIS reality that some have dubbed '616'"... 

But I leave that for you to decide, Paul. That's it for now.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Nov 2006 07:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If the Watcher we see here is indeed Uatu, I don't think it matters what reality he's in. This issue should count in his chronology, and as far as the Calendar goes, I can assign a date to his journey to...wherever...to tell this tale. Thanks for the analysis, Kevin.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Nov 2006 08:17 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yeah, it certainly does look like Uatu, but I figured there could be multiple Uatu's. "What if" tales are tricky, in that the narrator seems to be addressing us, the audience, specifically, and that can throw me off, thinking, "Is this out of continuity"?... 

However, I suppose you're right that the intent is that this is the Uatu who narrates prior "What if" tales...in which case, I suppose you're right: it doesn't matter where he's at, on the moon, or in the Twilight Zone standing next to a spider's web-it would indeed count in his chronology. 

I forgot to mention: one thing that I found intriguing about this tale is that supposedly "months" pass between Peter dying and him showing back up as Poison. I thought Civil War followed closely on the heels of the "Other" storyline? But apparently Luke Cage and Logan are still living in Avengers Tower?!? Apparently Spider-Man death, (and his staying dead) prevented the Civil War!! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Nov 2006 07:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I thought Civil War followed closely on the heels of the "Other" storyline?  
<<<

Well, not exactly closely. The Iron Spidey costume makes a number of pre-Civil War appearances that need to be accommodated. "Months" (as in more than one month) may be technically correct. I'm still working on this whole period, and it's slow going.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Nov 2006 12:32 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

"What if: Featuring Wolverine in 'Enemy of the State'" aka "What if Wolverine was Never Deprogrammed?" 

Written by Jimmie Robinson 
Pencils by Carmine Di Giandomenico 
Inks by Robert Campanella 

I'll keep this one short and simple. There's no appearance by the Watcher in this tale. Instead, it's set completely in a different universe. The divergence point is that Wolverine wasn't captured at the end of Wolverine (Vol. 3?) #24, (the end of the "Enemy of the State" storyline). Thus, Wolverine was never deprogrammed and remained an agent of Hand/Hydra, continuing his quest of assassinating superheroes and political figures. 

The story is set several months after Issue #24, and there's supposedly only a few superheroes left in the world. Captain America has picked a team of the few remaining heroes, (including Kitty Pryde, Magneto, and Sue Storm) to spring a trap and to have one last attempt at stopping Wolverine. Everyone is killed by Wolverine except for Kitty Pryde, who manages to kill Wolverine by phasing her hand into his skull, just as Logan cuts off her arm. The End. 

I for one would've liked to have known how this killing of Wolverine would've done anything to prevent the Gorgon from completing his plan to bring about "the end of all things". The Gorgon already had access to Mr. Fantastic's stolen technology plans, and was still set to use them to wipe out all life on Earth, so really, I could see this alternate world still ending with the Earth wiped out by the Gorgon. 

Anyway, as all of this takes place in another reality, there's nothing to add to anyone's chronology. That's it for now.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Dec 2006 11:01 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

"What If: Featuring X-Men in 'Age of Apocalypse'" aka "What if Legion had Killed Xavier and Magneto?" 

Written by Rick Remender 
Art by Dave Wilkens 

This one is a more traditional "What If" tale, featuring Uatu the Watcher at the start and end of the tale. He appears on pg. 1, with his traditional, "I am the Watcher" speech, and he appears on the last page, pg. 22, ending his tale. 

As for the tale itself, it's a drastically different version of the "Age of Apocalpyse" world. To me, the most noticeable difference is that they remembered to include the rest of the Marvel universe in this event, (the original "Age of Apocalpyse" revolved entirely around the X-titles, with only passing references to other superheroes). 

In this world, without either Magneto or Xavier to lead them, the remaining "good mutants" flee to the Savage Land. Captain America, meanwhile, leads a resistance movement alongside the new "Sorcerer Supreme" Brother Voodoo, the Thing, Wolverine, Colossus, Sauron, the Molecule Man, and some sort of Captain Britian/Iron Man hybrid. Nate Grey, (who grew up with his parents Scott and Jean in the Savage Land) sees his parents killed by Apocalypses invading army, and he joins the resistance movement. 

Long story short, they fight their way to Apocalypses inner sanctum, (with everybody dead except Captain America, Logan, the Molecule Man, and Nate). Nate kills Apocalypse and somehow opens a time portal, deciding he can save this whole world by going back and preventing Legion from killing Xavier and Magneto. Seeing he's insane, Captain America is forced to kill Nate as well, but a random blast of energy during the battle shoots back through the open time portal, and this kills Magneto, Xavier, Legion, and scores of other people as well, so it simply ensures that this alternate reality will come to pass, and that there's no changing the past. The End. 

Hypothesis: If they opened a portal to the past, to the point of timeline divergence, then that should've been a portal to the real Earth 616, shouldn't it? Thus, that random blast of energy should struck Earth 616, killing Xavier and Magneto in the "regular" Marvel universe...I hate time travel. 

"What if: Featuring X-men in 'Deadly Genesis'" aka "What if Xavier's Secret Second team had survived?" 

Written by David Hine 
Pencils by David Yardin 
Inks by Kris Justice 

There's no appearance by the Watcher in this tale...it's set entirely in an alternate universe, with the divergence point being a different unfolding of "X-Men: Deadly Genesis". I at one point was about ready to write off this whole one-shot as a dream that Vulcan's having in the "Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar" storyline, (there's a video that Vulcan watches at one point, which begins with the words, "Fever Dream Entertainment presents...") but no, it does indeed appear to be entirely set in an alternate reality. 

In this reality, we see that Vulcan is Earth's greatest hero, and has done wonders for human/mutant relations. He and his team of X-Men have fully defeated Magneto and the Brotherhood, and things are all "happy, happy, joy, joy" on Earth. 

Except that the Silver Surfer has found the island of Krakoa adrift in outer space, and brought it back to Earth. And Prof. Xavier and the other X-Men, (upon studying the island) discover that Vulcan was responsible for the deaths of the original X-Men team, (Cyclops was the only survivor, but nobody saw that Vulcan accidently killed Jean Grey, and to cover up witnesses to this act, Vulcan killed all the other members of the original X team). Vulcan regrouped with Darwin, Sway, Petra, and Cyclops, and informed them that the island had killed the original team. 

When confronted with this murderous action, Vulcan starts to try and kill the other X-Men, (he doesn't want to give up his title of "World's Greatest Superhero"), but the other X-Men stop him, and Darwin uses his "evolution" powers to remove Vulcan's powers. Vulcan is sent into exile, forced to live on the island of Krakoa in outer space, forced to watch a holographic replay of his murderous actions every time he has to go get food supplies, (it's a hellish prison devised by Xavier to punish Vulcan). The public back on Earth were told that Vulcan was going into outer space to help other worlds like he had helped Earth. The End. 

The biggest thing that strikes me about this one-shot is that in this reality, we see that Vulcan is still a complete sociopath with homocidal tendencies, thus confirming for me that there are no redeeming qualities in the Vulcan we see in the regular Earth 616. 

And that's it for this year's "What If" tales!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!
